# Emotional Intelligence?



## superodalisque (Sep 8, 2009)

what level of emotional intelligence in your SO works for you? should they be cued in or are you ready to work with them a lot. do you think all of the "i didn't know" excuses are genuine or are they mainly a put on for avoidance sake? do you think its right that we tend to expect less emotional intelligence form men that women--or do we?

where i am at this point in my life is that i really like a high level of emotional intelligence. i've kind of run out of patience. i like as close to move in condition as i can get. i think my age has a lot to do with it. i tend to try to date a lot inside of my age group. if a man hasn't developed some emotional understanding by then i wonder if he ever will. will he? can you teach an old dog new tricks? when i was younger i think i was much more willing but now i just want to get on with living instead of what i now think of as making the preparations. i don't know if this is the right way to think or not but its how i feel anyway.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm too old for those fixer uppers myself Felecia......


----------



## comaseason (Sep 8, 2009)

It depends. I'm not sure I've ever really dated someone who had high emotional intelligence though - so consider the source .

I've dated and had relationships with a lot of socially awkward types (read: geeks n' nerds) and most of the time, at least in my experience, they weren't really up on emotions and what motivates people and the like. The thing that made me hang in there (I'm not the world's most patient person) was that for the most part there was an inquisitive and/or teachable nature in the guy. As long as I can take a stab at explaining what's going on and why I'm acting the way I am, or why homeslice did what they did - then I'm cool.

It's when there's a whole attitude of emotions being inconsequential or illogical that drives me batty and I've gotta get to the door.


----------



## Fascinita (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm flexible, but have limits. The older I get, the more aware I am of what those limits are, and the more confident I've become in setting boundaries.


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 8, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I'm too old for those fixer uppers myself Felecia......



hehe i love real estate double entendres


----------



## olwen (Sep 8, 2009)

I need a guy with high emotional intelligence. At my age I have too many male friends who are just having a hard time dealing with adulthood, and I always ask them why some things are so hard for them. I feel sorry for their girlfriends sometimes for having to put up with it, cause I wouldn't. As it is, it drive me crazy having to explain for the umpteenth time why some of the things they do regarding relationships are immature and selfish. I have no desire to mommy anyone right now, and I suspect that as I get older, my tolerance for this sort of thing will just get lower and lower.


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 9, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> what level of emotional intelligence in your SO works for you? should they be cued in or are you ready to work with them a lot. do you think all of the "i didn't know" excuses are genuine or are they mainly a put on for avoidance sake? do you think its right that we tend to expect less emotional intelligence form men that women--or do we?
> 
> where i am at this point in my life is that i really like a high level of emotional intelligence. i've kind of run out of patience. i like as close to move in condition as i can get. i think my age has a lot to do with it. i tend to try to date a lot inside of my age group. if a man hasn't developed some emotional understanding by then i wonder if he ever will. will he? can you teach an old dog new tricks? when i was younger i think i was much more willing but now i just want to get on with living instead of what i now think of as making the preparations. i don't know if this is the right way to think or not but its how i feel anyway.



Your best shot in finding a man with emotional intelligence is to look at younger men, as they do not have the same gender role hangups as older men. Men particularly the baby boomer generation believed that women would live out their emotional lives for them. To cope with one's emotions takes willingness and practice over time. Why should men be willing if they do not see a payoff for coping with their emotions. What is unfortunate about men is that they think that their feelings have nothing to do with their thoughts so at some level they are in conflict with themselves. Women have evolved from feminism and having more exposure in the world; therefore we are unwilling to be satisfied with the kind of man our mothers were satisfied with.


----------



## vardon_grip (Sep 9, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Your best shot in finding a man with emotional intelligence is to look at younger men, as they do not have the same gender role hangups as older men. Men particularly the baby boomer generation believed that women would live out their emotional lives for them. To cope with one's emotions takes willingness and practice over time. Why should men be willing if they do not see a payoff for coping with their emotions. What is unfortunate about men is that they think that their feelings have nothing to do with their thoughts so at some level they are in conflict with themselves. Women have evolved from feminism and having more exposure in the world; therefore we are unwilling to be satisfied with the kind of man our mothers were satisfied with.



Do all older males have gender role hangups? I know this to be untrue and to say so is very unfair. I don't think that younger men have more emotional intelligence than older men. I think it is evenly random for all physically mature males. I believe that females share the same randomness. They will be and are taught by post-post boomer parents and if their emotional education comes from a stable base, they can hope to achieve some intelligence. If the boomers are messed up, then is it safe to assume that the Generation Jones' will be messed up also and so on...? So where do the younger, more intelligent men rise up from? Do you believe that a positive comes from two negatives or that the female influence will be enough to counter any negative influence from the older or contemporary male influences? If these young men cannot find positive role models in their parent/s, where can they look to for guidance? MTV TRL? Where are these young men getting all this emotional education that makes them more suitable for older women? 

I find your last sentence to be narrow minded. There seems to be a lot of negative emotion behind those words. My grandmother ran a counseling center for unwed mothers from the home my grandfather built for the two of them. She was able to do this for many years because of the understanding and support of her husband. My father freely gives his love and time to my mother, my brother and sisters, their church and several charities. I am very proud of him and am grateful to have him as my role model. My grandmother and mother made a union with their husbands that I believe helped them grow as women as well as a couple. None of them ended up with the short end of the stick. I strive to be the kind of man that my mother is satisfied with.


----------



## SocialbFly (Sep 9, 2009)

vardon_grip said:


> Do all older males have gender role hangups? I know this to be untrue and to say so is very unfair. I don't think that younger men have more emotional intelligence than older men. I think it is evenly random for all physically mature males. I believe that females share the same randomness. They will be and are taught by post-post boomer parents and if their emotional education comes from a stable base, they can hope to achieve some intelligence. If the boomers are messed up, then is it safe to assume that the Generation Jones' will be messed up also and so on...? So where do the younger, more intelligent men rise up from? Do you believe that a positive comes from two negatives or that the female influence will be enough to counter any negative influence from the older or contemporary male influences? If these young men cannot find positive role models in their parent/s, where can they look to for guidance? MTV TRL? Where are these young men getting all this emotional education that makes them more suitable for older women?
> 
> I find your last sentence to be narrow minded. There seems to be a lot of negative emotion behind those words. My grandmother ran a counseling center for unwed mothers from the home my grandfather built for the two of them. She was able to do this for many years because of the understanding and support of her husband. My father freely gives his love and time to my mother, my brother and sisters, their church and several charities. I am very proud of him and am grateful to have him as my role model. My grandmother and mother made a union with their husbands that I believe helped them grow as women as well as a couple. None of them ended up with the short end of the stick. I strive to be the kind of man that my mother is satisfied with.



maybe she should have said in her experience...

i would have to agree with her as far as gender roles and issues though, men of my age i feel have more specific ideas as to what they feel they should be...i feel the younger age group roles with the punches a little more and are not as bound by convention....does that make more sense??


----------



## vardon_grip (Sep 9, 2009)

SocialbFly said:


> maybe she should have said in her experience...
> 
> i would have to agree with her as far as gender roles and issues though, men of my age i feel have more specific ideas as to what they feel they should be...i feel the younger age group roles with the punches a little more and are not as bound by convention....does that make more sense??



I believe that the experience of katherine22 is exactly as stated. I also believe that other women feel the same way. I think it is unfortunate that there are a lot of women that haven't met any/enough emotionally intelligent men to have such feelings and to make such statements. 

I hear what you're saying, but these younger people are being taught or following the example of somebody/s. Where are these kids getting their instruction? Are they only learning from their single mothers? Are they learning to be men and how to relate to women in a responsible manner from sources other than their fathers or other males? Maybe there is a study on it. 
I think I have met enough men to speculate that there are many emotionally intelligent males out there, but I don't think they are in the majority. I think I have met enough women to speculate that there are more emotionally intelligent women than there are men-but that doesn't put them in the majority either.
If you are only going to have NSA sex or one night stands, then what does it matter if anybody is emotionally intelligent? Do you get that deep with a one-off? Most would be hard pressed to remember the name of the ONS. I believe that making a relationship work is very difficult and a part of this difficulty is understanding that there can be several roads to the same destination, not just your road. To accept this knowledge without prejudice is even more difficult.


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 9, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Your best shot in finding a man with emotional intelligence is to look at younger men, as they do not have the same gender role hangups as older men. Men particularly the baby boomer generation believed that women would live out their emotional lives for them. To cope with one's emotions takes willingness and practice over time. Why should men be willing if they do not see a payoff for coping with their emotions. What is unfortunate about men is that they think that their feelings have nothing to do with their thoughts so at some level they are in conflict with themselves. Women have evolved from feminism and having more exposure in the world; therefore we are unwilling to be satisfied with the kind of man our mothers were satisfied with.



i agree with you that a lot of younger men don't have the gender role hang ups that some older men have. but i also know a lot of older men who also have a greater since of responsibility and maturity than some younger men because of those same tradtional expectations. that can be a comfort as well. so i think it balances out. i think it really depends on the person and how they manifest whatever generation they come from. for instance there are some men who adhere to the old gender stereotypes in ways that i'm totally comfortable with personally. that means they feel a sense of responsibility for everything they do and everything around them that they can have an impact on. and that does not include meaning they have to stop me from living my own life as i see fit. controlling what i do is not much of a concern to a man like that because he is too busy as we say down south" handling his own business". the traditional gender stereotype where i am is that a man who spends too much time in the business of women isn't really too much of a man. so women are free to do as they like because its not seen to impact what a man does. he is supposed to be proud of her but not care too much about micromanaging her. it just goes to show that the old rules did not have to be carried out in ways that were abusive to women. some have also freed women in a certian way. and since i'm not planning on having children anymore a lot of the truly restrictive rules don't apply to me. 

sometimes when i date a much younger man i miss some of the traditional things. i miss that a man has to try more for me. i miss being treated like a lady. there is nothing wrong with how younger people are. i love how they are casual about a lot of things. i respect and admire them. i like what they do. but there are some things i have personally grown to appreciate and often miss in a much younger man. i miss an overall appearance of purposefulness. i like not having a man in everything that i do so that i can have a life that is my own. i don't generally want to discuss my work much with my guy. because i'm an artist its important for me not to have too much of that kind of influence on me. it causes me to feel blocked. but thats a steretype too since a young man can do those things as well. my concerns are not so much about the battle of the sexes but about being with someone you feel understood by and have common experiences with. it doesn't really matter if they are older or younger really but mainly i feel more comfortable with people my own age because they tend to know where i'm coming from more often and i don't find myself having to explain why i feel the way that i do so much.

another reason Katherine has a great point is because i also think a lot of older men who are emotionally intelligent are already in a relationship. they truly want that. so a lot of the well adjusted ones are probably not available anymore. but they are out there. and they are NOT looking fo something on the side because they are fully connected with who they are with and thier families as they should be. it makes sense that its easier to find that kind of man who is younger because he hasn't made that commitment yet. it can really make it tough if you refuse to get involved in someone else's relationship. but the kind of man who would do that is not emotionally intelligent anyway--otherwise he'd have had counseling with his wife or moved on already.


----------



## comaseason (Sep 9, 2009)

There's a lot of "younger ones" and "older ones" that have been talked about thus far.

In reading the posts I can honestly say I got lost because I'm not really sure what age ranges everyone is referring to when they say "younger" or "older", and since age range seems to have become an important theme in y'all's posts - thought it might be something I should be hip to. Can I get some clarification on younger and older in the context we're talking about?

Is it younger or older in comparison to the person in question - or is it an actual age range in general that we're talking about?


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 9, 2009)

Men older than me.....they seem to want a woman younger than myself.....or for me to be their handmaiden/mother that hangs on their every boring, stifled, begrudgingly given word. Every once in a while, there is one that can be nice...even interesting or exciting....but hung up about the age difference. That's ironic when I have dated men around 15+ years younger than myself and they have no concern whatsoever over the age difference....

Those younger ones DO have a different mentality, IN MY EXPERIENCE

I stick with the young-uns most of the time......but have been talking to one my own age lately. That's a wild experience :blink:


----------



## mediaboy (Sep 9, 2009)

If by emotional intelligence are you suggesting a man be compassionate and thoughtful. Perhaps even aware of his SO's feelings and mood?


----------



## mossystate (Sep 9, 2009)

Men who not only have ' emotional intelligence ' with me...but also with others...and it doesn't just come out when I am around to witness it. You can tell. 

I don't have a desire to teach. I think a person has the ability...or they don't. If you have to read a book, or pick anothers brain...you ain't got it...you ain't ever going to have it...at least not the level I require.

Also, if they are very clued into many other things, but not you...it might be that you are just not very important. That is always a more depreessing thing to consider. It's much more fun to fix ' em....right?


----------



## StarWitness (Sep 9, 2009)

mediaboy said:


> If by emotional intelligence are you suggesting a man be compassionate and thoughtful. Perhaps even aware of his SO's feelings and mood?



Yup-- at least, that's how I define emotional intelligence. Unfortunately, that's not always a given. I know a lot of men who don't have bad intentions, they just aren't wired to take other people into consideration. Some, like the men comaseason mentioned, are apparently willing to learn how to be empathetic. Others insist on doing things their way no matter what and then get pissed when they can't maintain friendships. Empirical evidence has suggested to me that pursuing a committed relationship with the latter sort of man is a bad idea.

On the other hand... I have to wonder if my own EI is lacking, in a different sort of way. Namely, my tendency to take things personally and the difficulty I have communicating my feelings in an open and honest manner. That can't make things easy for a guy who feels like I'm inscrutable.

Oh, nice signature. :bow:


----------



## thatgirl08 (Sep 10, 2009)

Lots of people mentioned that now that they're older, they're less willing to teach.. maybe I'm just an impatient person but that already is a deal breaker for me and I'm 18. Insensitivity, lack of communication, unable to read me at all or unable to deal with my emotions or an unwillingness to discuss emotions (all of which is part of how I define 'emotional intelligence') is a huge red flag for me. I don't have the patience, the time, the willingness, etc etc to try to teach someone. To me, you either got it or you don't.

Building off of Star's response above, I think it's reasonable for me to expect these things out of a SO because I think that I fit that description. I'm not asking for something I am unable or unwilling to provide.


----------



## comaseason (Sep 10, 2009)

I have to say I don't really buy into the whole notion of either having EI or not having it - like it's an innate gift. While I believe that there are certain people that have a natural aptitude for it, I also believe that for certain people that *want* to understand people and their emotions, motivations, etc. it's something that can be learned.

Also, having a low to non-existent EI and being actually emotionally immature can look an awful lot like the same thing. Most boys/men do take longer to mature emotionally than girls/women.

I get and respect that some people don't have the patience to deal with men that haven't really come into their own yet. I myself am NOT a very patient person, and at the end of the day it's all about what works for you. For me I just know there are a lot of good men out there who just simply don't know and don't understand - until you take some time and effort to explain it to them. I'm not talking about jerks or assholes - the ones where you can TELL they don't care about your thoughts or feelings or what drives you or why you respond to stuff the way you do. I'm talking about the truly clueless, that do things unintentionally.

I have no problem teaching, I have no problem explaining - it's not something that bothers me. Baggy pants... now there's something that bothers me... but I can save that for another thread.


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 10, 2009)

vardon_grip said:


> I believe that the experience of katherine22 is exactly as stated. I also believe that other women feel the same way. I think it is unfortunate that there are a lot of women that haven't met any/enough emotionally intelligent men to have such feelings and to make such statements.
> 
> I hear what you're saying, but these younger people are being taught or following the example of somebody/s. Where are these kids getting their instruction? Are they only learning from their single mothers? Are they learning to be men and how to relate to women in a responsible manner from sources other than their fathers or other males? Maybe there is a study on it.
> I think I have met enough men to speculate that there are many emotionally intelligent males out there, but I don't think they are in the majority. I think I have met enough women to speculate that there are more emotionally intelligent women than there are men-but that doesn't put them in the majority either.
> If you are only going to have NSA sex or one night stands, then what does it matter if anybody is emotionally intelligent? Do you get that deep with a one-off? Most would be hard pressed to remember the name of the ONS. I believe that making a relationship work is very difficult and a part of this difficulty is understanding that there can be several roads to the same destination, not just your road. To accept this knowledge without prejudice is even more difficult.




It is obvious that one night stands have no value to you. I think it requires emotional intelligence to negotiate a one night stand. You state that you are hard pressed to remember the name of the person that engaged in a one night stand with you. It seems that a one night stands get only so much of your attention in the process of engagment. Other people may put alot in a one night stand since they want it to be pleasurable for their partner as well as for themselves. A one night stand can be quite wonderful depending on your perceptions about it.


----------



## vardon_grip (Sep 11, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> It is obvious that one night stands have no value to you. I think it requires emotional intelligence to negotiate a one night stand. You state that you are hard pressed to remember the name of the person that engaged in a one night stand with you. It seems that a one night stands get only so much of your attention in the process of engagment. Other people may put alot in a one night stand since they want it to be pleasurable for their partner as well as for themselves. A one night stand can be quite wonderful depending on your perceptions about it.



It isn't obvious that ONS' have no value to me because I didn't comment on its "value" at all. I don't see where you came up with that. I also did not state that I cannot remember the names of ONS'. I indicated "most" people. That could include me, but it may not. I don't understand how one can care so much about another's "emotional intelligence" and why it is so important-if you are just going to toss it away after the sun rises. That is why I asked the question. 
I do not believe it takes any intelligence, emotional or otherwise to negotiate a one night stand. ONS' can only get so much of your or my attention. Exactly one night. You feel that you can put "a lot" into a ONS-I can't disagree because I don't have a clue what you feel "a lot" is. It is completely subjective. Your "a lot" may seem miniscule to me. I would argue that you can better determine a persons emotional intelligence if you have more time to study it. I think that one night is not an adequate amount of time to determine it.


----------



## Ned Sonntag (Sep 11, 2009)

In one of Anthony'PSYCHO'Perkins' movies his character whines that he's 'emotionally retarded'! It could be a mild case of Asperger's...:doh::blush::blush::blush:


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 12, 2009)

vardon_grip said:


> It isn't obvious that ONS' have no value to me because I didn't comment on its "value" at all. I don't see where you came up with that. I also did not state that I cannot remember the names of ONS'. I indicated "most" people. That could include me, but it may not. I don't understand how one can care so much about another's "emotional intelligence" and why it is so important-if you are just going to toss it away after the sun rises. That is why I asked the question.
> I do not believe it takes any intelligence, emotional or otherwise to negotiate a one night stand. ONS' can only get so much of your or my attention. Exactly one night. You feel that you can put "a lot" into a ONS-I can't disagree because I don't have a clue what you feel "a lot" is. It is completely subjective. Your "a lot" may seem miniscule to me. I would argue that you can better determine a persons emotional intelligence if you have more time to study it. I think that one night is not an adequate amount of time to determine it.




It is a values call. Some people can walk away with a sense of completeness after being with someone for one night others cannot. I do not understand what you mean by tossing away emotional intelligence after the sun rises. What does that mean. After the sun rises you thank the person for a lovely time then say good bye. Being with someone has a beginning a middle and an end whether it is one night or 30 years.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 12, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Being with someone has a beginning a middle and an end whether it is one night or 30 years.



You make a good point here.......


----------



## vardon_grip (Sep 12, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> It is a values call. Some people can walk away with a sense of completeness after being with someone for one night others cannot. I do not understand what you mean by tossing away emotional intelligence after the sun rises. What does that mean. After the sun rises you thank the person for a lovely time then say good bye. Being with someone has a beginning a middle and an end whether it is one night or 30 years.



From opening junk mail to tripping on a rock and falling on your face to eating a bowl of cereal; _everything_ has a beginning, middle and end. Does that make it just as significant as a 30 year relationship? No. Does a "tweet" have the same literary significance as War and Peace? Nope. Should they be compared? No. I agree that this is all based on value. I understand that everybody values life, relationships and sex differently.


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 13, 2009)

vardon_grip said:


> From opening junk mail to tripping on a rock and falling on your face to eating a bowl of cereal; _everything_ has a beginning, middle and end. Does that make it just as significant as a 30 year relationship? No. Does a "tweet" have the same literary significance as War and Peace? Nope. Should they be compared? No. I agree that this is all based on value. I understand that everybody values life, relationships and sex differently.




Considering that one out of every two marriages fail, good luck with your 30 year relationship.


----------



## vardon_grip (Sep 13, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Considering that one out of every two marriages fail, good luck with your 30 year relationship.



That's not a very nice thing to say. It seems like a very bitter response. Would you say that was an emotionally intelligent response?


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 13, 2009)

vardon_grip said:


> That's not a very nice thing to say. It seems like a very bitter response. Would you say that was an emotionally intelligent response?



I can appreciate your value of a 30 year relationship as it seems you witnessed a good marriage in your family, etc. I think you took a high handed tone in stating that it required no emotional intelligence to negotiate a one night stand. In other words anyone who would "settle" for a one night stand was some sort of bottom feeder. Whatever two consenting adults agree on in privacy is not anyone's business. Live and let live-now that is emotional intelligence.



i


----------



## olwen (Sep 13, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> I can appreciate your value of a 30 year relationship as it seems you witnessed a good marriage in your family, etc. I think you took a high handed tone in stating that it required no emotional intelligence to negotiate a one night stand. In other words anyone who would "settle" for a one night stand was some sort of bottom feeder. Whatever two consenting adults agree on in privacy is not anyone's business. Live and let live-now that is emotional intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> i



I think it takes more emotional intelligence to have a *successful* long term relationship. Any two people can end up in a relationship and both can be completely selfish and disrespectful. Which could make for an unpleasant relationship. 

It also takes emotional intelligence to have a successful one night stand, meaning you actually bother to please the other person. It's really easy to have a one night stand and not give a shit about whether the other person is satisfied. It also takes emotional intelligence to make sure you are being satisfied during a one night stand, without offending the other person. 

So you are both right, but about different aspects. In both scenarios effective communication and knowing yourself well are key.


----------



## Friday (Sep 13, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> ...a lot of older men who are emotionally intelligent are already in a relationship. they truly want that. so a lot of the well adjusted ones are probably not available anymore. but they are out there. and they are NOT looking for something on the side because they are fully connected with who they are with and their families as they should be.



Precisely. And to tar all men of a certain age with a negative stereotype is sexist, agist and worst of all often self defeating. When you go into a situation expecting just one thing that's usually what you find because it's all you're looking for, even if it's the last thing in the world you want.


----------



## Littleghost (Sep 13, 2009)

comaseason said:


> It depends. I'm not sure I've ever really dated someone who had high emotional intelligence though - so consider the source .
> 
> I've dated and had relationships with a lot of socially awkward types (read: geeks n' nerds) and most of the time, at least in my experience, they weren't really up on emotions and what motivates people and the like. The thing that made me hang in there (I'm not the world's most patient person) was that for the most part there was an inquisitive and/or teachable nature in the guy. As long as I can take a stab at explaining what's going on and why I'm acting the way I am, or why homeslice did what they did - then I'm cool.
> 
> It's when there's a whole attitude of emotions being inconsequential or illogical that drives me batty and I've gotta get to the door.



I'm not commenting directly on what you said, just that you reminded me that a lot of people tend to confuse social skills with emotional intelligence; and that while one can definitely benefit the other, they needn't go hand in hand. I've met surprisingly a lot of people who are very social but quite inept in emotional understanding and some who were vice versa. I wouldn't even necessarily say that people with/out a high degree emotional intelligence are entirely responsible for their level of maturity in that matter - although they should be aware of it at least - it might be just what happens to be their natural level of perception/awareness and that's what they go with.


----------



## liz (di-va) (Sep 14, 2009)

Littleghost said:


> a lot of people tend to confuse social skills with emotional intelligence; and that while one can definitely benefit the other, they needn't go hand in hand.


agreed!


> I wouldn't even necessarily say that people with/out a high degree emotional intelligence are entirely responsible for their level of maturity in that matter - although they should be aware of it at least - it might be just what happens to be their natural level of perception/awareness and that's what they go with.


I guess that's the crucial issue there--especially from a somewhat older person POV. The idea being, given one's own natural emotional intelligence or lack thereof: what are you taking responsibility for regardless? Not in a magick you-must-guess-everything-I'm-thinking way, but...are you listening. Are you flexing the empathetic muscles at all. Trying to be fair. Responsive. Forgiving. In touch with your own feelings (oh man I just said "in touch with your feelings"). All that stuff. I guess I consider emotional intelligence/responsiveness important in relationships of all kinds, including friendship. Hmm. Still thinking about this...


----------



## Littleghost (Sep 14, 2009)

liz (di-va) said:


> agreed!
> I guess that's the crucial issue there--especially from a somewhat older person POV. The idea being, given one's own natural emotional intelligence or lack thereof: what are you taking responsibility for regardless? Not in a magick you-must-guess-everything-I'm-thinking way, but...are you listening. Are you flexing the empathetic muscles at all. Trying to be fair. Responsive. Forgiving. In touch with your own feelings (oh man I just said "in touch with your feelings"). All that stuff. I guess I consider emotional intelligence/responsiveness important in relationships of all kinds, including friendship. Hmm. Still thinking about this...



Yup, it's a heady problem. I'm struck by all the ways things can get confused even when things are normal, but I agree with you that trying is important if not the main thing. But from personal experience, I can't help but wonder what happens when someone continually tries but seems incapable of empathizing. Just thinking too much.


----------



## liz (di-va) (Sep 14, 2009)

Littleghost said:


> I'm struck by all the ways things can get confused even when things are normal, but I agree with you that trying is important if not the main thing. But from personal experience, I can't help but wonder what happens when someone continually tries but seems incapable of empathizing.



Aye! Best intentions and lots of trying don't necessarily bridge any gap. And empathy isn't a panacea (can even be kind of paralyzing), although there's gotta be some. 

I don't know either  (is my point). And I'm sticking to it.


----------



## Littleghost (Sep 14, 2009)

liz (di-va) said:


> Aye! Best intentions and lots of trying don't necessarily bridge any gap. And empathy isn't a panacea (can even be kind of paralyzing), although there's gotta be some.
> 
> I don't know either  (is my point). And I'm sticking to it.




Works for me. :bow:


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 14, 2009)

liz (di-va) said:


> agreed!
> I guess that's the crucial issue there--especially from a somewhat older person POV. The idea being, given one's own natural emotional intelligence or lack thereof: what are you taking responsibility for regardless? Not in a magick you-must-guess-everything-I'm-thinking way, but...are you listening. Are you flexing the empathetic muscles at all. Trying to be fair. Responsive. Forgiving. In touch with your own feelings (oh man I just said "in touch with your feelings"). All that stuff. I guess I consider emotional intelligence/responsiveness important in relationships of all kinds, including friendship. Hmm. Still thinking about this...



i agree with this. i think when you talk about empathy in particular thats something thats not really teachable. people can be trained to look like or pretend they care but that doesn't really mean its so. there are some people who can just never focus on someone else's perspective. unfortunately when any new situations come up with people like that they can never figure out on thier own how they should handle it. 

i personally prefer someone who is just naturally kind -- and not only just to me because they are interested. for me, i like men who treat all women nicely no matter whether they are sexually interested or not. i like it if a man's heart aches for those treated unjustly in the world. for me sweetness is the new hotness. i can't say how much it means to me to be attracted to someone and then also see that he is genuinely kind and caring--especially to people he isn't getting anything from. its really exciting when he goes out of his way to help someone else. i have a real weakness for people who volunteer etc... it really says something about a person if caring was always a part of his character without anyone having to tell him to be that way. what it says to me is that he genuinely has a loving nature. thats just who he is. that just tells me how capable he is of loving me too.

i also think that for me, wanting someone with emotional intelligence has a lot to do with wanting to respect the person that i am with. i like to admire a man's character and how he conducts himself with me and other people. i had never really thought about that before but i guess that being proud of someone and who he is has a big impact on why its as important to me as it is. i just like being able to feel like "wow what a great guy".


----------



## Tad (Sep 14, 2009)

Kind of responding/building off of what Liz and Littleghost were saying: Being intelligent and actually thinking are very different things, and while raw intelligence may be more impressive, I think the people who actually use whatever intelligence they have regularly navigate the world better.

I suspect much the same applies to emotional intelligence. Some people seem to be highly gifted in this regard, but that doesn't mean that they necessarily use it to build strong relationships. Heck, a few especially nasty people have great emotional intelligence, and use it to be especially hurtful. I suspect that in the end the desire to be nice making the effort to use what you have may end up mattering a lot. As much / more than / not as much as raw emotional intelligence? I don't know, and I suppose that depends somewhat on what you are looking for.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 14, 2009)

Has anyone ever read the book Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman?


Oh and this is an interesting link in defining what exactly EI is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence


----------



## desertcheeseman (Sep 14, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Your best shot in finding a man with emotional intelligence is to look at younger men, as they do not have the same gender role hangups as older men. Men particularly the baby boomer generation believed that women would live out their emotional lives for them. To cope with one's emotions takes willingness and practice over time. Why should men be willing if they do not see a payoff for coping with their emotions. What is unfortunate about men is that they think that their feelings have nothing to do with their thoughts so at some level they are in conflict with themselves. Women have evolved from feminism and having more exposure in the world; therefore we are unwilling to be satisfied with the kind of man our mothers were satisfied with.



I think the issue is that men in our culture, regardless of age, are taught that they have to appear strong, confident and "macho" at all times. There are a lot of unbecoming words in our language reserved for men who do not epitomize the so-called "masculine ideal." I should know, I was called by most of them when I was a kid merely for the fact that I was overweight. While it is a great deal of honor for a woman to succeed in a traditionally masculine role, men still see "feminine" things like emotions as something weak. Men are just as afraid of rejection as women are, perhaps even more so because they put their whole masculine identities on the line every time they interact with the women in their lives.

Some men have the courage and wisdom to buck the stereotypes and realize that their feelings are neither masculine nor feminine, but part of the human experience that everyone shares. They are not afraid of their own emotions or those of the women in their life. They can comprehend other people's feelings because they admit and accept their own. This requires a great deal of internal honesty and introspection, which is not taught in our culture, especially in these days where it seems that only the brashest, boldest, and most obnoxious people get noticed. I think you are more likely to find this quality in older men who have had a lot of life experiences, a firm sense of self, and a lot less ego to bruise. Unfortunately, as another poster pointed out, a lot of those guys are already taken. There are a lot of younger guys too that have this in them, but from my own wrestlings with the darkness of my soul, I think it is a bit more rare to find a guy in his twenties and thirties who doesn't have his self-image and self-esteem wrapped up with how "masculine" he feels. If you are afraid that admitting your feelings or opening up to your partner will get you labeled a sissy or a queer or a fag, it puts a serious damper on your ability to empathize, let me tell you.


----------



## The Orange Mage (Sep 15, 2009)

Basically boys have it reinforced over and over again through life experiences to shun emotion-related things despite the fact that it's really really needed to do well in personal relationships when it matters most.

Thanks a lot, society.


----------



## mossystate (Sep 15, 2009)

Be what you want to be in personal relationships. I know that I shut down more and more with men who are takers of emotional support...and rarely givers. I am not interested in being Earth Mommy. I want that shoulder.


----------



## SocialbFly (Sep 15, 2009)

vardon_grip said:


> I believe that the experience of katherine22 is exactly as stated. I also believe that other women feel the same way. I think it is unfortunate that there are a lot of women that haven't met any/enough emotionally intelligent men to have such feelings and to make such statements.
> 
> I hear what you're saying, but these younger people are being taught or following the example of somebody/s. Where are these kids getting their instruction? Are they only learning from their single mothers? Are they learning to be men and how to relate to women in a responsible manner from sources other than their fathers or other males? Maybe there is a study on it.
> I think I have met enough men to speculate that there are many emotionally intelligent males out there, but I don't think they are in the majority. I think I have met enough women to speculate that there are more emotionally intelligent women than there are men-but that doesn't put them in the majority either.
> If you are only going to have NSA sex or one night stands, then what does it matter if anybody is emotionally intelligent? Do you get that deep with a one-off? Most would be hard pressed to remember the name of the ONS. I believe that making a relationship work is very difficult and a part of this difficulty is understanding that there can be several roads to the same destination, not just your road. To accept this knowledge without prejudice is even more difficult.



you forgot to add, and timing is everything!!


----------



## SocialbFly (Sep 15, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Has anyone ever read the book Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman?
> 
> 
> Oh and this is an interesting link in defining what exactly EI is...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence



i did and i bought it for several friends...there are a couple of books out there that sprouted off of it as well...


----------



## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 15, 2009)

comaseason said:


> I've dated and had relationships with a lot of socially awkward types (read: geeks n' nerds) and most of the time, at least in my experience, they weren't really up on emotions and what motivates people and the like.
> 
> It's when there's a whole attitude of emotions being inconsequential or illogical that drives me batty and I've gotta get to the door.




OK, a have a feeling a lot of people will be pissed by what I'm about to say. 

With a war going on and troops often coming home, consider this a....warning.... I guess. Emotional intelligence - very low, pretty much nonexistent. They have *major* issues trying to fit back into society. Our problems are trivial and unimportant to them after what they've seen. You cannot "teach" them. I know lol. I could write a book, but I won't.

IF you see a vet that you really like, only see him/her if they've *completed* PTSD classes. They will probably continue to need therapy. You really don't want to get into a relationship with a vet without that.....not only the emotional toll of them not being emotionally intelligent, but also seeing them suffer. Ohhhhh the suffering I've seen.... There is also the safety factor. You cannot fix them, they need professional help to regain some emotional intelligence (sadly, it will never all come back).

I talked to a psychotherapist friend that is a vet, he said what I'm describing is the norm for vets; he and pretty much every vet has/had some major issues that need to be addressed when they come home. 

Every vet is different, and I'm NOT bashing them at all, but I thought I would put this out there. It is very sad what war does to a person, and very sad how it effects relationships. It is heart wrenching to actually see it, see that they're unwilling to get help, and see them pretty much self-destruct and do things to push everyone away.


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Sep 15, 2009)

I've been following this thread with some interest. As someone diagnosed with borderline Asperger's Syndrome (basically high-functioning autism) in my mid 30's I can't help cringing a bit at the whole concept of "emotional intelligence". On a Stanford-Binet scale I'm wicked smart. I have excellent pattern recognition skills that I can use to emulate emotional intelligence in most relationships. I'm under no illusion this is the equivalent of genuine EI but, as the saying goes, 'every cripple finds his own way of walking'. I get by OK in all but intimate LTR's where ultimately things seem to go badly. Partners inevitably want me to be more "emotionally available" and I'm left feeling like a bastard 'cuz I'm already giving all I've got. The phrase 'way down deep I'm shallow' has always resonated for me. 

I don't have the full 16 crayolas to color with emotionally that most guys, do let alone the minimum 64 pack most women have. While I don't pretend to be sensitive to them I've taught myself to read other peoples emotions as a coping strategy. I actually find the complexity of other people's emotions intriguing on an intellectual level and especially in contrast to my own relatively monochromatic temperament. As one ex once said to me "I wouldn't mind mashed potatoes every day if there was just some different gravy to you now and then." 

I can be attentive, caring, supportive, even sincerely adoring but the passion women seem to want from me just isn't ever there. I've learned the hard way that faking it doesn't work. I've tried letting down the emo firewalls that seem to contain me and that was a disaster, too. I used to imagine that there was someone out there who could accept me just as I am but I've gotten too old and cynical to devote any more energy to that illusion. Entirely my call and I'm reconciled with it. 

What I did want to suggest here is that there might be a deeper appreciation for emotional diversity that would afford better room for everyone to find a space, if not necessarily a mate, that makes them feel welcome and accepted for who they really are. If not, at least my sadness won't be particularly profound over the fact.  Mixed blessings; gotta love 'em! :happy:

This is an excellent essay grounded in the Vulcan (yeah, I know) precept that beauty lies in infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I know I can't feel what most of you can but I can still hold that my perspective is as valid and valuable as anyone else's. Truly infinite diversity includes even assholes and the congenitally insensitive. JMO. :bow:

Honestly this is way better than anything I have to say on the subject. Please at least have a look: http://www.thinkingmeat.com/essays/idic.html


----------



## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 15, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> I've been following this thread with some interest. As someone diagnosed with borderline Asperger's Syndrome (basically high-functioning autism) in my mid 30's I can't help cringing a bit at the whole concept of "emotional intelligence". On a Stanford-Binet scale I'm wicked smart. I have excellent pattern recognition skills that I can use to emulate emotional intelligence in most relationships. I'm under no illusion this is the equivalent of genuine EI but, as the saying goes, 'every cripple finds his own way of walking'. I get by OK in all but intimate LTR's where ultimately things seem to go badly. Partners inevitably want me to be more "emotionally available" and I'm left feeling like a bastard 'cuz I'm already giving all I've got. The phrase 'way down deep I'm shallow' has always resonated for me.
> 
> I don't have the full 16 crayolas to color with emotionally that most guys, do let alone the minimum 64 pack most women have. While I don't pretend to be sensitive to them I've taught myself to read other peoples emotions as a coping strategy. I actually find the complexity of other people's emotions intriguing on an intellectual level and especially in contrast to my own relatively monochromatic temperament. As one ex once said to me "I wouldn't mind mashed potatoes every day if there was just some different gravy to you now and then."
> 
> ...




Ah, Asperger's Syndrome! I'm well aware of it . I was raised around various people with mental and physical "handicaps" (although I really don't consider Asperger's Syndrome a handicap). I have noticed that the higher functioning children with Asperger's can be quite affectionate.

I'm sorry to hear about all your relationship issues. I guess people that really don't know about it, see all sides of it, don't realize how hard it is to connect with another rather than being "in your brain" and thinking about various analytical stuff. People need to realize that people with Asperger's have created some of the most beautiful music, art, and then the intelligence level of some.......extremely high. If only we stopped pushing the "different" people out of society....


----------



## Tad (Sep 15, 2009)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> I talked to a psychotherapist friend that is a vet, he said what I'm describing is the norm for vets; he and pretty much every vet has/had some major issues that need to be addressed when they come home.
> 
> Every vet is different, and I'm NOT bashing them at all, but I thought I would put this out there. It is very sad what war does to a person, and very sad how it effects relationships. It is heart wrenching to actually see it, see that they're unwilling to get help, and see them pretty much self-destruct and do things to push everyone away.



Given the lack of help available to vets after WW1 and WW2, these comments really make me wonder how much certain aspects of our culture were collective adaptations to dealing with all those damaged vets?


----------



## TraciJo67 (Sep 15, 2009)

I can't comment specifically on your statement about vets and an ability to sustain a romantic relationship.

I will say, though, that it saddens and frustrates me that in my career as a social worker, so ... so ... so many of my homeless, destitute, chemically addicted clients have been veterans. And they are incredibly difficult to stabilize & treat ... some have reached levels of despair that are seemingly untouchable. It angers me to no end when I think of how very few resources we have, how thin we are spread, and how many people do not get hooked up with the mental health & financial/supportive services that they need. I've assisted many vets with ongoing MI issues in an attempt to get the veteran's administration to grant them disability status (as a means of stabilizing them with some means of income). They are notoriously stingy about giving the benefits and will go to any length to "prove" that the MI issues either didn't stem from service-related trauma ... or that they are simply not "sufficient" enough to interfere with one's ability to perform activities of daily living. Uh ... hello. Resident of homeless shelter, unemployed, chemically addicted, typical arrest/conviction record with multiple (petty to misdemeanor 'loitering' or 'disturbing the peace' type) offenses ... documentation of major depression ... but yes, Veteran's Administration, YES! You're right! That soldier is good to go, and we'll get him another dead-end, low-paying, soul-sucking job at McDonalds ... and he'll be terminated within a week for not being able to pull it together long enough to stay for an entire shift. And the cycle continues. Soldier is lucky to get a few cheap generic meds thrown at him, maybe a psych appointment or two.

OK ... phew ... sorry, a passion of mine  On topic ... I'm not sure that emotional intelligence can really be 'damaged' ... I think it's more of an innate ability for many, and a focused, learned effort for others (Ernest Nagel comes to mind). 



MizzSnakeBite said:


> OK, a have a feeling a lot of people will be pissed by what I'm about to say.
> 
> With a war going on and troops often coming home, consider this a....warning.... I guess. Emotional intelligence - very low, pretty much nonexistent. They have *major* issues trying to fit back into society. Our problems are trivial and unimportant to them after what they've seen. You cannot "teach" them. I know lol. I could write a book, but I won't.
> 
> ...


----------



## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 15, 2009)

Tad said:


> Given the lack of help available to vets after WW1 and WW2, these comments really make me wonder how much certain aspects of our culture were collective adaptations to dealing with all those damaged vets?



And there still is lack of help AND it is hard to find. In the Army, they're given their physical and are sent on their way.....even if they have no place to sleep. 

The common response from friends, family, and the general public is that they're the same person when they come home. I think that was the case in WW1 and 2. Kind of a "my husband came home, lets go start a family and buy a house" mentality. 

Often, they become shunned by their family and friends because their personalities and priorities changed. That happened to a guy I know. He thanked me for being the first and only one to accept him as who he is now. I think society doesn't want to see the ugly side of war.......I'm not talking about the ugly side where people are killed, but the ugly side of what war does to the human psyche.

I can easily see a problem coming for the future generations. With this war going on for so long, there will be LOTS of vets untreated. Families will be torn apart because of divorce, children won't understand why mom or dad is acting "weird," jumping out of bed screaming, why they're no longer affectionate towards them, on and on. Then they'll withdraw into themselves, and then the next generation comes to being......

And then there are the children where their parents never come back. Their EI will be stunted too. <sigh>


----------



## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 15, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I can't comment specifically on your statement about vets and an ability to sustain a romantic relationship.
> 
> I will say, though, that it saddens and frustrates me that in my career as a social worker, so ... so ... so many of my homeless, destitute, chemically addicted clients have been veterans. And they are incredibly difficult to stabilize & treat ... some have reached levels of despair that are seemingly untouchable. It angers me to no end when I think of how very few resources we have, how thin we are spread, and how many people do not get hooked up with the mental health & financial/supportive services that they need. I've assisted many vets with ongoing MI issues in an attempt to get the veteran's administration to grant them disability status (as a means of stabilizing them with some means of income). They are notoriously stingy about giving the benefits and will go to any length to "prove" that the MI issues either didn't stem from service-related trauma ... or that they are simply not "sufficient" enough to interfere with one's ability to perform activities of daily living. Uh ... hello. Resident of homeless shelter, unemployed, chemically addicted, typical arrest/conviction record with multiple (petty to misdemeanor 'loitering' or 'disturbing the peace' type) offenses ... documentation of major depression ... but yes, Veteran's Administration, YES! You're right! That soldier is good to go, and we'll get him another dead-end, low-paying, soul-sucking job at McDonalds ... and he'll be terminated within a week for not being able to pull it together long enough to stay for an entire shift. And the cycle continues. Soldier is lucky to get a few cheap generic meds thrown at him, maybe a psych appointment or two.
> 
> OK ... phew ... sorry, a passion of mine  On topic ... I'm not sure that emotional intelligence can really be 'damaged' ... I think it's more of an innate ability for many, and a focused, learned effort for others (Ernest Nagel comes to mind).



Oh, I'm talking about any relationship. His parents withdrew, friendships ended, and relationships with other family members either became strained or ended.

I hear ya about the VA! They make no sense almost all the time. The suicide and homeless rate is very high; often because of the VA. Out of the guy's fire-squad, he was the only one alive and not homeless. There was only one other that wasn't dead, and he was on the streets. I think they purposefully make finding assistance difficult.

As for EI being damaged....well, from my talks with the guy and the psychotherapist friend, even with help, we're (non-military) not on their level of seeing how the world really works; what is important. They become frustrated with us because we complain about trivial issues (to them) when they've seen a child being blown apart. The psychotherapist said those feelings never completely go away. 

Another interesting thing is that a lot of vets don't have photos displayed, or even look at them. They have two things on their mind, the present (It's like the past and future never exist.) and death. That's life. I wonder what that does to the EI of their children.


----------



## butch (Sep 16, 2009)

Reading some of these posts, I'm reminded of the interesting dynamic I see (or hear about) that some heterosexual women talk about, which is that they need a boyfriend and a female best friend to have all their needs met, but that in a perfect world they want their man to fill all their needs. 

Am I reading this scenario right? Does it exist, how do you experience it or interpret it, and is this split only about the varying degrees of emotional intelligence between men and women (I realize I am generalizing here, and please dispute that generalization if you think it is erroneous)? Also, do you think it is preferable to have this split, the man for some needs, the women for others, and why does this seem the best scenario to you? 

Makes me wonder if my bisexuality is a result of my absolute need to have only one person fill all my needs, external and internal, and the realization that this happens more readily for me with other women.


----------



## Tad (Sep 16, 2009)

In the general case, I think it is very rare that all of anyone's needs can be fully met by any one person. 

More specifically, the flip side of the coin from what you mentioned is that most guys, no matter how much they adore their wife, have friends with whom they can go out and compete with in some way (sports, poker, chess, fundraising, trash talk each other, whatever).


----------



## desertcheeseman (Sep 16, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> This is an excellent essay grounded in the Vulcan (yeah, I know) precept that beauty lies in infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I know I can't feel what most of you can but I can still hold that my perspective is as valid and valuable as anyone else's. Truly infinite diversity includes even assholes and the congenitally insensitive. JMO. :bow:
> 
> Honestly this is way better than anything I have to say on the subject. Please at least have a look: http://www.thinkingmeat.com/essays/idic.html



That was an excellent article. Everyone is different, and just because someone does not show "emotional intelligence" (i.e. cares for us in a way that fits our own preconceived notions of what care is) that doesn't mean they are unintelligent or insensitive or mentally ill. The fact that your significant other is there for you and wants to be around you is a lot more indicative of his/her love than the methods they use to communicate it. If you benefit from the relationship and enjoy being around that person, and they do things that you consider insensitive, you should either just accept it as part of who they are, talk to them about it to try to reach a compromise, or find someone who more fits your emotional needs. Trying to get them to change in order to better fit your ideal of what a relationship should be is manipulative and counterproductive.


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 16, 2009)

desertcheeseman said:


> That was an excellent article. Everyone is different, and just because someone does not show "emotional intelligence" (i.e. cares for us in a way that fits our own preconceived notions of what care is) that doesn't mean they are unintelligent or insensitive or mentally ill. The fact that your significant other is there for you and wants to be around you is a lot more indicative of his/her love than the methods they use to communicate it. If you benefit from the relationship and enjoy being around that person, and they do things that you consider insensitive, you should either just accept it as part of who they are, talk to them about it to try to reach a compromise, or find someone who more fits your emotional needs. Trying to get them to change in order to better fit your ideal of what a relationship should be is manipulative and counterproductive.




Emotions are a form of intelligence. We have a message in this culture that we are always to be happy and to have negative emotions is bad for our health. This does not make sense in that it unrealistic to think we are to feel good all the time. Being in touch with the complexity of one's emotional life makes a person interesting.


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 16, 2009)

i'm certain there are men who are very loving without being able to show it as a woman might need. but thats why a woman has to decide whether that is enough for her--hence the question. how much can a woman survive with or do without? is a woman denying herself something she really needs when she makes the compromise? should she make the compromise? 

women are always encouraged societally to give up on looking to have their emotional needs met. and for the most part we have either at one point or another. how much of the lack of the emotional intelligence is due to a man just not putting forth an effort and using the "i am just a man " theme as an excuse? should women require men to make more of an effort no matter what their level of intelligence is? after all if a man is dyslexic we don't expect him to remain illiterate. we know he is fully capable of being literate if he puts forward an effort. sure it may not be as easy for him as for everyone else but life isn't always fair. sometimes we have a challenge. but if a man choses to remain illiterate even though the help is there why should a woman deal with that? shouldn't a man have to take the time to make a study of how to be with other people in order to fully engage with them if he needs to? if he isn't willing and doesn't care if he remains illiterate on a certian level should a woman really have to deal with that? should a man be forced to deal with that in a woman? or isn't he also free to move on to someone who might be more fulfilling as a partner. being that partner has nothing to do with meeting every need a woman has as a human being . it only means you are more of a benfit to her life than a detriment. you are not a depressing addition but a happy one. you are more of a pleasure than a struggle.

on dims much is made of whether a fat woman is sexually desireable to herself FAs society and the outside world. but i don't think the problem is whether she is physically desireable or not. that is just a distraction. even a 100lb toothless unwashed crack addict can easily find someone who will have sex with her and even pay her for it. i think the real issue is who a woman decides to offer herself to and under what conditions. do those conditions fulfill her personal needs? how a man approaches a woman and relates to her has everything to do with that. its natural that a woman, any woman is sexually desireable. we are made that way. we are a miracle. we all hold a kind of beauty in one way or another for those disearning enough who care to look and find it. we're not supposed to be exactly the same. we aren't supposed to be a man's ideal but our own. if a man finds us and we happen be his ideal thats a more natural process than trying to make a woman become other than she is-- and vice versa. instead of women trying to change a man maybe we should just analyze whether we can take someone as he is or do we have to move on. so its not a big deal either way if we are huge or tiny unless we build that up in our own minds--in my opinion. i know a lot of people will disagree with that and i honor that opinion too. i think what we can agree on though is that it definitely is a big deal that we get what we women need out of a relationship whatever that might be. and even though i respect you guys opinions, and i'm glad you are expressing it, its really not up to you what is enough for us. only we know that. and just like vulcans, i think the idea that a real man, even a clumsy one, can't emotionally connect with a woman is a fiction. so no more excuses dudes, just do the work.


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 16, 2009)

olwen said:


> I think it takes more emotional intelligence to have a *successful* long term relationship. Any two people can end up in a relationship and both can be completely selfish and disrespectful. Which could make for an unpleasant relationship.
> 
> It also takes emotional intelligence to have a successful one night stand, meaning you actually bother to please the other person. It's really easy to have a one night stand and not give a shit about whether the other person is satisfied. It also takes emotional intelligence to make sure you are being satisfied during a one night stand, without offending the other person.
> 
> So you are both right, but about different aspects. In both scenarios effective communication and knowing yourself well are key.



i agree. but i think it takes a lot more emotional intelligence to make something work for 30yrs than just for one night. when you don't have any real responsibilities to each other other than a night of sex and you don't face any of the real life challenges as a couple who've been together 30 yrs--i think its unrealistic to say that takes the same amount of emotional intelligence. i don't think its disrespectful of people who have one night stands to say that 30 yrs takes more work than one night -- no matter how well or respectfully you might do it. its only logical. its my personal opinion that the two things are entirely different and don't need to and should not be compared.


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 17, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i agree. but i think it takes a lot more emotional intelligence to make something work for 30yrs than just for one night. when you don't have any real responsibilities to each other other than a night of sex and you don't face any of the real life challenges as a couple who've been together 30 yrs--i think its unrealistic to say that takes the same amount of emotional intelligence. i don't think its disrespectful of people who have one night stands to say that 30 yrs takes more work than one night -- no matter how well or respectfully you might do it. its only logical. its my personal opinion that the two things are entirely different and don't need to and should not be compared.




I think real life challenges kills the sex. There are very few women who can say with a degree of honesty that they simply like sex with no strings attached. They may not be on Dims but there are women who are comfortable in just having sex just like men have always done. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and some people do not see the necessity to impose all these conditions and fictions about a basic human need.


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 17, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> I think real life challenges kills the sex. There are very few women who can say with a degree of honesty that they simply like sex with no strings attached. They may not be on Dims but there are women who are comfortable in just having sex just like men have always done. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and some people do not see the necessity to impose all these conditions and fictions about a basic human need.



well i for one was not making a judgement on one night stands here. just saying that one night with someone does not take the same amount of work as 30 yrs. that would be like saying doing temp work at a company for a day is the same as working for that company for thirty years. someone might be one hell of a temp worker but there is no way the same amount of labor was undertaken during the two differing time periods. that probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to most folks. it doesn't mean that one worker was better or worse than the other. it just means one had to apply themselves to thier position longer than another--which requires a different amount of and a different depth of work over the differing periods of time.

having said that, for myself i think relationships make sex better. overcoming real life challenges together and coming out of the other end anyway for me can make sex better. it builds my trust and openess factor with someone if i know i can count on him even when things are hard. i love knowing i have someone to share my life with. that works for me. but, just because thats what i like i don't expect everyone to be the same. and also it shouldn'tsince we are all different. i also like the fact that i have the freedom to change my mind and maybe think something different at another time in my life and not be trapped by fears of congizant dissonance just because i have something to prove to someone else about being "right". tomorrow it would be ok for me to decide that i only wanted one night stands from here on out if thats what my emotions said worked for me. 

if one person prefers one thing and someone else prefers the other it does not follow that one or the other is better or the two things are competing as a lifestyle. they can exist side by side. i think what women need to get over in particular is the idea that because someone has a differing opinion we have to fight it out to the death in terms of who is right. being different from one another does not mean that just by having those differences that it places a judgement on someone else. the only thing thats right is the choice people make for themselves that they can happily apply. whether it works for other people or not should make no difference. what they do or don't do , like or don't like does not have to be a judgement. its just thier personal opinion or thier personal likes or dislikes. it does not have to include a moral judgement about someone else--specially from someone like me who is not qualified to pass judgement on anyone else at all since all i am is human anyway.


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 17, 2009)

Littleghost said:


> I'm not commenting directly on what you said, just that you reminded me that a lot of people tend to confuse social skills with emotional intelligence; and that while one can definitely benefit the other, they needn't go hand in hand. I've met surprisingly a lot of people who are very social but quite inept in emotional understanding and some who were vice versa. I wouldn't even necessarily say that people with/out a high degree emotional intelligence are entirely responsible for their level of maturity in that matter - although they should be aware of it at least - it might be just what happens to be their natural level of perception/awareness and that's what they go with.



back to emotioal intelligence:

yes i know a lot of socially awkward types who are the most feeling and empathetic when it comes to the emotions of others. they have no problems understanding how other people might feel in similar situations. but they have problems evolving whatever they do observe into an appropriate action. that can be really frustrating to a partner who knows there is a caring person in there but would just like to be able to feel that once in a while in some kind of concrete way. so does it really matter if you understand if you can't put that understanding into action?


----------



## superodalisque (Sep 17, 2009)

The Orange Mage said:


> Basically boys have it reinforced over and over again through life experiences to shun emotion-related things despite the fact that it's really really needed to do well in personal relationships when it matters most.
> 
> Thanks a lot, society.



i think this is a really good point. society doesn't seem to think its important on the whole. so a lot of guys may lack the same education young girls get when it comes to paying attention to emotions and engaging in the appropriate reactions that should accompany them. also the guy has to be willing but unfortunately it seems like socety has a culture of stubborn when it comes to guys. it expects them to resist change and improvement in this area. i wonder why that is?


----------



## katherine22 (Sep 17, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> well i for one was not making a judgement on one night stands here. just saying that one night with someone does not take the same amount of work as 30 yrs. that would be like saying doing temp work at a company for a day is the same as working for that company for thirty years. someone might be one hell of a temp worker but there is no way the same amount of labor was undertaken during the two differing time periods. that probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to most folks. it doesn't mean that one worker was better or worse than the other. it just means one had to apply themselves to thier position longer than another--which requires a different amount of and a different depth of work over the differing periods of time.
> 
> having said that, for myself i think relationships make sex better. overcoming real life challenges together and coming out of the other end anyway for me can make sex better. it builds my trust and openess factor with someone if i know i can count on him even when things are hard. i love knowing i have someone to share my life with. that works for me. but, just because thats what i like i don't expect everyone to be the same. and also it shouldn'tsince we are all different. i also like the fact that i have the freedom to change my mind and maybe think something different at another time in my life and not be trapped by fears of congizant dissonance just because i have something to prove to someone else about being "right". tomorrow it would be ok for me to decide that i only wanted one night stands from here on out if thats what my emotions said worked for me.
> 
> if one person prefers one thing and someone else prefers the other it does not follow that one or the other is better or the two things are competing as a lifestyle. they can exist side by side. i think what women need to get over in particular is the idea that because someone has a differing opinion we have to fight it out to the death in terms of who is right. being different from one another does not mean that just by having those differences that it places a judgement on someone else. the only thing thats right is the choice people make for themselves that they can happily apply. whether it works for other people or not should make no difference. what they do or don't do , like or don't like does not have to be a judgement. its just thier personal opinion or thier personal likes or dislikes. it does not have to include a moral judgement about someone else--specially from someone like me who is not qualified to pass judgement on anyone else at all since all i am is human anyway.



I appreciate your remarks. This is a subject where I have conducted a lot of research. I like to see shame taking out of the sexual equation for women. Women cannot claim their true power unless they are the ones who decide what is best for them and how to behave.


----------

