# What exactly is "coming out?"



## Boteroesque Babe (May 19, 2006)

No judgement here. This is an earnest question I've always wanted to ask of the young men who fear "coming out." What exactly does this seemingly huge, life-altering milestone entail? Unless you've been joining your friends in slamming fat girls and those who desire them, I can't imagine it's anything more involved than showing up to a party with a fat lovely on your arm, then perhaps answering a few questions later. A young guy can expect that some amount of ribbing will follow, but how good-naturedly you handle that ribbing (and perhaps lob it back) will determine its tone. Am I wrong?

Please hip me. Have you been disrespecting fat women with your friends, and that's why a total life reversal is needed?

Or is "coming out" a catch-all for the many woes a young person experiences? I've often thought much of the anguish spoken of here is perhaps more accurately attributed to other issues going on in one's life, and is merely being bundled and blamed on FAness.

This part's been said here a number of times, but I believe it bears repeating: Explain yourself with head hung in shame, and yes, your family and friends likely won't understand. Explain yourself proudly with words like "preference" and "hard-wired" and "lusciousness," and you've won their respect. Right? 

I'm not without compassion, but the way some FAs talk about how horrible it is to love fat women IN FRONT OF FAT WOMEN makes me wonder if they know much about respect at all.


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## Leonard (May 19, 2006)

I've never really understood the whole "coming out" ordeal either. I think it's probably most difficult for the youngest of us. In high school (especially as a freshman) any difference is often interpreted as a strike against you that draws attention and invites ridicule. 

I never really had this problem. The bottom line is, enjoying the soft caress of an abundant woman is not nearly as controversial as I feel some on this board make it out to be. You won't get lynched for liking fat girls and the President isn't trying to prevent "fat marriage". In fact, you don't even have to officially "come out" if it makes you so squirmy. As Boteroesque Babe said above, date enough beautiful buxom bombshells and your friends and family will get the picture.

I think that those who believe "coming out" as an FA is big deal are among the minority on this board, so forgive me for preaching to the choir. My two cents have been thrown in.


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

Stepping outside the norm is always a little scarey. So is walking into an empty house at night. You learn to deal with it. It's called growing up.

You can either pretend to be someone you're not, or you can be yourself.

(Or as FL puts it, "Letting your freak flag fly.")


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## jayfa (May 19, 2006)

I struggle with the issue of "coming out" but it in no way is about shame. I think most of the fears of coming out maybe come from having this secret that you haven't told your friends and family. The longer you keep it in, the more you fear what they may say. 

But I think the main thing about being a FA in the cloest is whether or not you are prepared to openly date a fat woman. If you are, I guess you are ready to come out. I am ready for this - however I'm not ready to just randomly sit down with my friends and explain everything about my preferences to them (which is a stupid idea - its not that big of a deal). I guess keeping something secret for so long results in building it up to something bigger than it is.


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## Pink (May 19, 2006)

I think it's about demanding respect for your life choices in general. If you don't make a big deal out of whom you choose to date,marry,etc. or just what your doing in life neither will anyone else. 
Why feel the need to "explain" anything when you walk in with a fat girl on your arm? If your confident in yourself and who you are ppl will get the picture that you don't want/need their input on who you choose to be with.


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## NFA (May 19, 2006)

The myth of "coming out" is something created by self-pitying FA's who have imagined a world where it is difficult to be an FA. Yes, some closeted FA's will "pass" by adopting exaggerated fat bigotry in front of friends. They've also imagined that the transition from their shame will involve painful conversations with everyone they know as they "come out of the closet". In a word, its bulls**t.

I can at least understand why a teenager might feel somewhat anxious. At that age, you're anxious about your friends finding out anything. But there isn't even a glimmer of cause for an adult to be withdrawn about their physical preference. I was never in a closet about being FA. Doesn't mean I run around telling everyone I meet that I'm into fat women. Contrary to the apparent belief, there is not fat sexual preference registry law that would mandate us informing everyone as soon as possible. Indeed, all one needs to do is live their life, think fat women are cute, date them when possible, and enjoy the splendor of it all.

But, I guess self-pitying fills a need in their lives. I'd think that need could be filled quite well by making out with a nice BBW, but maybe that's just me. Does seem rather silly to go on about how difficult it is to admire beauty in front of people who are routinely harrassed for that beauty, but maybe that's just me, too.


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## Leonard (May 19, 2006)

jayfa said:


> I guess keeping something secret for so long results in building it up to something bigger than it is.



You hit the nail on the head, jayfa. Nip it in the bud before the bud blooms into a rhododendron of denial.


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## Coop (May 19, 2006)

Never have I had negitive opinions of fat people. Infact I find big women to be very acttractive. I kept these thoughts to myself for a bit but recently I let them out, my brothers thought I was weird but that's just them, everyone else didn't care.


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## Jes (May 19, 2006)

NFA said:


> Contrary to the apparent belief, there is not fat sexual preference registry law that would mandate us informing everyone as soon as possible. .


Just wait--the Bush Admin still has 3 more years in office!


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## Turin (May 19, 2006)

I, personally, am confused by the whole "coming out" process. But, then again, I was never "in". Ever since I knew what I preferred I have held to that, majority populace be damned. I was always an outsider anyway, so adding one more log to the bonfire of ostracism was no big deal.


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## HappyFatChick (May 19, 2006)

Jes- just think, if you joined US, together we'd be JesUS 
Love and hugs, 
The Christians


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 19, 2006)

Another thing that concerns me is, though it's against the rules, many here admit they've followed Dimensions since childhood. I hate the thought of a confused 12-year-old boy reading fretful posts and thinking, "Yikes! I'm still gonna be quivery over this when I'm a grown-ass man?"

Or worse, a 12-year-old fat girl reading it...


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 19, 2006)

jayfa said:


> I guess keeping something secret for so long results in building it up to something bigger than it is.


Exactly, Jay (and Leonard). At the beginning of your post, I wanted to suggest you apply logic to your situation. But by the end, it looks as though you did.

And I don't know about this "sitting down with friends to explain everything" thing. Unless you're hiding a murder weapon or joining a jihad, I don't see where The Big Reveal is necessary. As Child Life scholars suggest parents do when discussing sex with a child, answer questions as they come up. No big traumatic lecture needed.

Now go forth, Grasshopper! Find y'self a fat girl and be happy.


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## Jack Skellington (May 19, 2006)

I never heard of FAs "coming out" before coming to dimensions. 

I guess you could say I "came out" when I first started noticing girls.


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## Jes (May 19, 2006)

HappyFatChick said:


> Jes- just think, if you joined US, together we'd be JesUS
> Love and hugs,
> The Christians


Naw--I'm already more popular than he is, so...


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## SparklingBBW (May 19, 2006)

jayfa said:


> I guess keeping something secret for so long results in building it up to something bigger than it is.



Sixteen years ago, I remember having a very tearful and fearful conversation with a good girl friend who was wondering why I was isolating myself and not wanting to socialize. After much cajoling, she finally got me to voice my biggest (no pun intended) fear, that I was embarrassed because I didn't fit into booths anymore and was too mortified to bring it up (expose this dirty secret of mine) in front of people. She looked at me with an odd combination of incredulousness and compassion and basically told me...DUH! You think that's a secret? Yeah, I know this, and yeah, I don't care. We'll get a table...no biggie...just come out and socialize with me/us (the gang). 

Anyway, my point is when we build up these feelings in ourselves and appoint them with the title of "secret" it does build it up to be much larger issue than it really has to be. 

Secondly, I'm not sure who said it or exactly how they said it, but I always try to remember that in reality, most of us are too busy thinking about what OTHERS think of us to actually think about or hold judgements about other people. We're all egocentric creatures who think that since we think about ourselves all the time that so do others. Not so! They're too busy thinking about themselves as well. So go about your life just as you want to, really, hardly anybody really cares what you do, and if they do care well.... 

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " Dr. Seuss

Gena


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## Turin (May 19, 2006)

Jes said:


> Naw--I'm already more popular than he is, so...



HERETIC! That's it, I am burning all of your books and albums.


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## abluesman (May 19, 2006)

I don't understand the concept of being a "closet FA". I mean, to me that's like saying "I'm a Cardinals fan, but I don't want anyone to know", or "I really love Twix candy bars, but I'm afraid to tell anyone". It doesn't make sense to me. I dated fat girls in school. I've been married 3 times.... all of them BBWs. No one seemed to have a problem with it and if they did, to hell with them. It's a CHOICE !!!!

It appears to me that the problem here is not what others may say, think, or do, but rather that by being "in the closet", they seem to think there is something wrong with themselves. Like digging fat chicks is unnatural. Believe me, BBWs are some of the most beautiful, loving women on this good earth.


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

abluesman said:


> I don't understand the concept of being a "closet FA". I mean, to me that's like saying "I'm a Cardinals fan, but I don't want anyone to know", or "I really love Twix candy bars, but I'm afraid to tell anyone". It doesn't make sense to me. I dated fat girls in school. I've been married 3 times.... all of them BBWs. No one seemed to have a problem with it and if they did, to hell with them. It's a CHOICE !!!!
> 
> It appears to me that the problem here is not what others may say, think, or do, but rather that by being "in the closet", they seem to think there is something wrong with themselves. Like digging fat chicks is unnatural. Believe me, BBWs are some of the most beautiful, loving women on this good earth.










Ladies and Gents, THAT is a FA!!!!!!!!


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## grey1969 (May 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, people are judged based on the appearance of their significant other. Having a 'good-looking' wife is a status symbol for men (when I say good-looking in this context I am referring to societal standards in which fat is considered unsightly). An FA must be willing to deal with this reality, and as Turin said, be willing to be somewhat of an outsider. Generally, the courageous and decent among us will do so and the others will generally be unhappy and wish they did.

It is true that identifying yourself as an FA is not the burden that being gay or even a visible minority is. People may think you are a bit peculiar, but it is unlikely to result in real discrimination - to an extent. My question, which was raised in another thread, is why do we see essentially no men (or women) in prominent postions in business, entertainment, politics, etc. who are open FAs? I think there is potentially a glass-ceiling for FAs where we can reach a certain level of success but our peculiar sexual preference will possibly hold us back from reaching the higher levels of career success.

As for the issue of whether one should tell others about your preference or just let them figure it out by observing the women you date/marry. My strong preference is for the former. It is important to make people (friends, family) understand that you are with that fat woman because she is who you prefer, not because you feel you 'can't do any better' or that her looks just aren't important to you (as if this could be true). There is such a thing as a 'stealth FA' which was written about many years ago in the print Dimensions Magazine. They marry a fat woman without telling anyone about their preference. They can make it look like they are just a great guy who is not superficial and married her despite her fat. However, this stealth FA is not being fair to the woman because she should be able to feel good that she is found physically desireable, and he is shortchanging himself by not making it clear he has married the woman he finds attractive (both body and soul). In reality, many stealth FAs probably marry fat women who are not accepting of their fat and certainly would not be able to accept the FA husband's praise of their fat bodies. Sadly, these relationships will often go sour when the woman loses weight, and she won't even know what is going on.

So I am a proponent of full disclosure to family and close friends and especially to the woman who is the object of your affection, but it must be approached prudently.


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## LillyBBBW (May 19, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> Another thing that concerns me is, though it's against the rules, many here admit they've followed Dimensions since childhood. I hate the thought of a confused 12-year-old boy reading fretful posts and thinking, "Yikes! I'm still gonna be quivery over this when I'm a grown-ass man?"
> 
> Or worse, a 12-year-old fat girl reading it...



12 year old boys are thinking, "What a bunch chicken shits, my little sister could kick his ass!" believe me. The girls are thinking, "You tell 'em BB!!  "


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Unfortunately, people are judged based on the appearance of their significant other. Having a 'good-looking' wife is a status symbol for men (when I say good-looking in this context I am referring to societal standards in which fat is considered unsightly). An FA must be willing to deal with this reality, and as Turin said, be willing to be somewhat of an outsider. Generally, the courageous and decent among us will do so and the others will generally be unhappy and wish they did.
> 
> It is true that identifying yourself as an FA is not the burden that being gay or even a visible minority is. People may think you are a bit peculiar, but it is unlikely to result in real discrimination - to an extent. My question, which was raised in another thread, is why do we see essentially no men (or women) in prominent postions in business, entertainment, politics, etc. who are open FAs? I think there is potentially a glass-ceiling for FAs where we can reach a certain level of success but our peculiar sexual preference will possibly hold us back from reaching the higher levels of career success.
> 
> ...



WHY would you give a flying f what anyone who would judge you according to your spouse's looks would think. Their opinion is NULL, VOID, INCONSEQUENTIAL.


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## LillyBBBW (May 19, 2006)

I'm with Jane. They don't have support groups for people who marry ugly women. They just love who they love and that's the end of it.


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## Turin (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Unfortunately, people are judged based on the appearance of their significant other. Having a 'good-looking' wife is a status symbol for men (when I say good-looking in this context I am referring to societal standards in which fat is considered unsightly). An FA must be willing to deal with this reality, and as Turin said, be willing to be somewhat of an outsider.



Well but I was an outsider anyway. My predilections in terms of size were irrelevant to my being an outsider. Being an FA was, more correctly, throwing a toothpick on the fire of ostracization. It just made me not have to come out so to speak because no one really cared what my preferences were anyway. I don't see that you have to "accept" being an outsider to like big girls, but as a teenager, when we are already putting up with ridiculous amouonts of peer pressure, it was something that, in my personal experience, added to the list of things that were "different" about me.


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## Pink (May 19, 2006)

At my hubby's co. annual corp. meeting there were the dyed blonde & super skinny "trophy" wives Everywhere. Needless to say I stuck out a little hehe We laughed about it and he called me his fat trophy wife the entire trip. He is super proud of me and when he walks in a room you can see that. No one would dare bad mouth me in his earshot ,#1 he would beat them up lol #2 he likes what he likes and that happens to be fat brunette little ole me. I know it doesnt cross his mind to think he could "do better" or that my fat might hold him back career wise. That is crazy talk


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## abluesman (May 19, 2006)

Jane said:


> WHY would you give a flying f what anyone who would judge you according to your spouse's looks would think. Their opinion is NULL, VOID, INCONSEQUENTIAL.




Exactly !!!!


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## sunandshadow (May 19, 2006)

Some people are afraid of criticism and not being liked and loved by everyone. Some of them consider popularity and the power which comes with it to be vitally important, and others want to be seen as completely normal so they can stay below everyone's radar and not be scrutinized. Both of these types of people are afraid of doing anything 'uncool' like being gay, being athiests, being FAs, and being fat. The only way to overcome that fear would be for them to change their mindset to not caring about what other people think. (I'm quite interested in this psychological progress, it's what I chose to explore in my novel-in-progress, the change two of the characters have to make to achieve happiness.)


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

sunandshadow said:


> Some people are afraid of criticism and not being liked and loved by everyone. Some of them consider popularity and the power which comes with it to be vitally important, and others want to be seen as completely normal so they can stay below everyone's radar and not be scrutinized. Both of these types of people are afraid of doing anything 'uncool' like being gay, being athiests, being FAs, and being fat. The only way to overcome that fear would be for them to change their mindset to not caring about what other people think. (I'm quite interested in this psychological progress, it's what I chose to explore in my novel-in-progress, the change two of the characters have to make to achieve happiness.)


The psychological process is this: You learn that you can't please everyone anyway, no matter what you do or how hard you try. At that point, there is a freedom to be YOU.


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## missaf (May 19, 2006)

I'm teaching my son to be confident in himself, and confident in his actions. That carries over to telling me what he likes and dislikes, but also it's helped with me understanding how his mind works. 

We were in line at the grocery store once, and he saw a really pretty BBW that was bigger than I, and he blushed and buried his head in my shirt. I asked him what was wrong, and he said "She has a cute fat belly like you, Mom!" I replied, "Do you think she's pretty?" which he answered, yes, and I encouraged him to say that he thought she was very pretty, and not just think it. So he did, and the lady looked like someone dropped a grenade at her feet! LOL  

The other day my son called me a beautiful butterfly, and he's right. I've undergone some serious growth and changes since my divorce. I've learned to embrace my past, my fat, and my life, and I've been out of my cocoon, and even kids can be taught to see beauty, express their desire for it, and not be ashamed. Part of activism, I think, is teaching kids this very thing, so that no one has to come out of hiding, they are already firm in their beliefs and know how to express it when they realize it.


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## gangstadawg (May 19, 2006)

last time i checked the term coming out was gay related since if any one was and came out the closet about it it proly would be a life-altering milestone. but coming out as a FA really somewhat isnt a life-altering milestone or at least not a big one.

i like BBWS/SSBWS since i was 8 years old and i really didnt have to come out i just said i like big women. i did get some flack about from friends but i got some cruel flack from family. my grand mother hated the idea and my gay uncle thought i was gay (which i am not) and this was a cop out excuse to avoid it.


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## Webmaster (May 19, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> No judgement here. This is an earnest question I've always wanted to ask of the young men who fear "coming out." What exactly does this seemingly huge, life-altering milestone entail? Unless you've been joining your friends in slamming fat girls and those who desire them, I can't imagine it's anything more involved than showing up to a party with a fat lovely on your arm, then perhaps answering a few questions later. A young guy can expect that some amount of ribbing will follow, but how good-naturedly you handle that ribbing (and perhaps lob it back) will determine its tone. Am I wrong?
> 
> Please hip me. Have you been disrespecting fat women with your friends, and that's why a total life reversal is needed?....



It's not fair, but it can be a big deal in certain situations. Keep in mind that most young people have an extremely developed herd instinct. You have to fit in at all cost. Even as a guy I remember situations where you simply could not show up in school unless you had the latest gadget or wore the clothes you were expected to wear, or have your hair cut a certain way. Now dating and your choice of date is about the ultimate accessory by which kids are judged. So if a young FA all of a sudden shows up at a dance with a 300 pound girl instead of the 120 pound cheerleader type, it is a huge deal. It is coming out. It is going against the flow. It is breaking all the conformity rules. It can be life-altering.

That said, there are always all the qualifiers. Some kids never care about following trends. For them it may be easier. Or someone is already an outcast anyway, so linking up with another outcast simply reinforces his image. Increasingly, smaller fat girls "pass" because there are so many more today than there were. A cute 200-pound girls would probably barely raise an eyebrow whereas when I was a teen in Switzerland, that was very different.

When I agreed to go on the Sally Jessy Raphael Show back in 1986 and discuss my being a FA, that was a life-altering experience. When I told my 105-pound mom that my wife-to-be was four times her size, that was a scary moment. 

We're herd animals, almost all of us. So when we do something different, something that goes against the grain, most will experience a bit of fear and apprehension, or a lot. That is not shame. It simply means fear of being exposed and looked at. Most fat girls have known and experienced that fear most of their lives. 

See, this was one of my original goals for Dimensions, to provide a place where fat people and their admirers could meet and get comfortable with one another. Many young FAs have a lot to learn as they reconcile their desires with what awaits in the real world. This is one instance where us guys need to hope that a fat women will have patience and understanding as she helps a bewildered, scared male find himself. Just as many FAs put forward patience and understanding as a young fat woman struggles to see herself as a desirable, sexual individual.

Needless to say, as in any other situation in life, the mindset must be right. Just like some, and perhaps most, fat women will never be able to accept themselves, there are probably some FAs who will never be able to go against society's norm. Which means you pick your battles carefully.


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

Well, Conrad, it must be comforting for them to be able to "blend in." Unfortunately for the women who are fat girls, that is not an option.


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## rainyday (May 19, 2006)

HappyFatChick said:


> Jes- just think, if you joined US, together we'd be JesUS
> Love and hugs,
> The Christians



Somehow you make me want to issue a disclaimer almost every time you open your mouth. I really, really hope people realize you do not represent anyone but yourself.


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## Jes (May 19, 2006)

rainyday said:


> Somehow you make me want to issue a disclaimer almost every time you open your mouth. I really, really hope people realize you do not represent anyone but yourself.


Rainy, the best part about being me is that I so seldom understand what anyone is saying to me. I really don't. But I smile dutifully and get on with it. So no worries. I didn't really understand the comment (I guess US is united states?) so it's all good.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 19, 2006)

Webmaster said:


> It's not fair, but it can be a big deal in certain situations. Keep in mind that most young people have an extremely developed herd instinct. You have to fit in at all cost. Even as a guy I remember situations where you simply could not show up in school unless you had the latest gadget or wore the clothes you were expected to wear, or have your hair cut a certain way. Now dating and your choice of date is about the ultimate accessory by which kids are judged. So if a young FA all of a sudden shows up at a dance with a 300 pound girl instead of the 120 pound cheerleader type, it is a huge deal. It is coming out. It is going against the flow. It is breaking all the conformity rules. It can be life-altering...


I, too, needed to conform to my pack as a kid. Had to have the same shoes, the newest jeans, the hottest car. But I can't imagine denying my happiness in the name of conformity. Or disrespecting myself or others because of it. And dating someone for their accessory value? I can't get through one dinner with someone I don't find fascinating on some level. 

Sounds like slow death to me. For all involved.

I think it often comes down two issues we here in the US pay far too little mind to. Character and counseling. People will spend limitless amounts of money and energy on physical health and fitness, following every diet, hitting the gym every day, yet they shun the pursuit of mental health and emotional well-being. People understand the need to get a physical check-up every year, but if their teen needs to talk to a professional about why they can't get out of bed? Throw pills at it, or ignore it. Or buy a new toy to distract from it. 

As for the character issue. Well. Sheesh. Not sure I even know where to begin on that one.



LillyBBW said:


> 12 year old boys are thinking, "What a bunch chicken shits, my little sister could kick his ass!" believe me. The girls are thinking, "You tell 'em BB!! "


Lilly, you have a way with words.


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## rainyday (May 19, 2006)

Jes said:


> Rainy, the best part about being me is that I so seldom understand what anyone is saying to me. I really don't. But I smile dutifully and get on with it. So no worries. I didn't really understand the comment (I guess US is united states?) so it's all good.



I think I'm going to adopt that tactic, Jes. Must make life much simpler!


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## Egbert Souse (May 19, 2006)

_You must lose your hostle attitude regarding Reputation and Cans before giving it to Boteroesque Babe again._

Great post, BB. I'll settle the Rep score later.

And kudos to jayfa. There's truly nothing to explain unless they ask, and only then if they ask respectfully.


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## Edens_heel (May 19, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> I, too, needed to conform to my pack as a kid. Had to have the same shoes, the newest jeans, the hottest car. But I can't imagine denying my happiness in the name of conformity. Or disrespecting myself or others because of it. And dating someone for their accessory value? I can't get through one dinner with someone I don't find fascinating on some level.
> 
> Sounds like slow death to me. For all involved.
> 
> ...



I too wonder about the concept of coming out, and although I'm 25, I still have a difficult time understanding it from the perspective of an FA or a gay person. I say this as an FA who has grown up in a small community with a close knit circle of friends - two of which are gay. I think I am fortunate in that never once did I feel the so-called herd mentality pressuring me into dating someone I wasn't interested in. Hell, I've been a BBW admirer since before I knew what they were. There was no comming out, everyone just sort of knew that was what I liked, just the same as everyone knew my friend Ed was gay. We never had to come out of anything, and the fact that there is even a concept like coming out shows us just how far we still have to go as a society. It should never be an issue, a source of nerves or division, and it is our preconceptions, our diehard beliefs in certain areas (not to get into a religious argument or anything) that hold us back from being truly accepting of all forms of sexuality and desire.

I don't even like the terms FA or BBW, I use them on this board because it serves a purpose, a descriptor of sorts, but in the real world I never use them. They're not BBW, they're just women to me, and I think the difference might be between those who've made a conscious decision at some point in their lives that this is what they like, versus someone who has never even given a second thought and always knew what they liked. I'd like to thank my classical art upbringing for imbedding in my head from day one that big is beautiful, but I truly don't think any of my desires have been something that I've struggled with. We like what we like and we are who we are. Accept that and go with it.

Plus, I was always the outsider in high school anyway. I remember back then thinking how stupid everyone was - nothing's changed.


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## Littleghost (May 19, 2006)

I guess for some guys, the whole thing is because of their social group and peer pressure. Everything seems so amplified in highschool and the like, so they're intensely worried about being exiled because of their FA-ness. I don't think it's so much the liking fat girls thing as being different.
As I've always kinda been different, and my friends were few but close, it didn't matter. I just did what I wanted and they didn't care.
As for guys out of Highschool, I have little to no explanation. It's awfully sad to think of middle-aged guys with adolescent concerns. But I guess those have always been out there. :shocked:  

Billy told Shannon that Jared said what?
--Littleghost


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## Littleghost (May 19, 2006)

Pink said:


> Why feel the need to "explain" anything when you walk in with a fat girl on your arm? If your confident in yourself and who you are ppl will get the picture that you don't want/need their input on who you choose to be with.


Can I walk in the room with you? ;D

Puts on musty prom tux,
--Littleghost


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## Jes (May 19, 2006)

There are also people who either don't realize their attractions or don't act on them, but act more on mainstream attractions (badly worded, sorry). At some point, if those people realize who they are, then perhaps THAT is where some sense of 'coming out' applies. What I mean is that for those of you who have known of your FAism and acted according for a long time, no real discussion necessary or even relevant.

If I went away to summer camp, and came back 100 lbs larger (has that been written up in the dirty birdy story room yet?  ), I'm sure I'd have more 'splainin' to do than if I'd always weighed the same.


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## grey1969 (May 19, 2006)

Jane said:


> WHY would you give a flying f what anyone who would judge you according to your spouse's looks would think. Their opinion is NULL, VOID, INCONSEQUENTIAL.



Is the opinion of an employer null, void and inconsequential (and don't think it doesn't happen - like I said, show me any FAs who have risen to the top levels of career success)? We are talking about the real world here, not the world we would like it to be.

Another point is that the FA must deal with the judgements of people who will wonder why he/she would wish his/her significant other to be in a physical state that is 'unhealthy'. This is a growing problem as obesity continues to be ever more demonized in our society.


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## TallFatSue (May 19, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> Please hip me. Have you been disrespecting fat women with your friends, and that's why a total life reversal is needed?


I just asked my dear husband this very question, because when we first met almost 3 decades ago, he let me know in no uncertain terms that he did not like fat girls.  

What? Good answer!  

Art said that after he realized that he couldn't live without the fattest girl he ever met, a complete life-altering reversal was easy.  

I predict some major hugs in Art's immediate future. And if he's really good, I'll even let him massage me. Yeah I know it's rough, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to keep him happy.  

What? I'm still the biggest wise ass he ever met too? Touchée!


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## missaf (May 19, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> Art said that after he realized that he couldn't live without the fattest girl he ever met, a complete life-altering reversal was easy.



Best FA comment ever.


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Is the opinion of an employer null, void and inconsequential (and don't think it doesn't happen - like I said, show me any FAs who have risen to the top levels of career success)? We are talking about the real world here, not the world we would like it to be.
> 
> Another point is that the FA must deal with the judgements of people who will wonder why he/she would wish his/her significant other to be in a physical state that is 'unhealthy'. This is a growing problem as obesity continues to be ever more demonized in our society.


Grey, I've had excellent jobs, and would NEVER have worked with anyone with this attitude. And it was ME lugging my fat ass around all day.

Edited after Saucy's post.

No, I know it isn't easy, but neither is growing up in general.

But, you know, the ladies you like DON'T HAVE A CHOICE on how they appear.

I just expect guys to reach down, make sure their balls are still there, and USE THEM. Be a man.


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## saucywench (May 19, 2006)

Pink said:


> I think it's about demanding respect for your life choices in general. If you don't make a big deal out of whom you choose to date,marry,etc. or just what your doing in life neither will anyone else.
> Why feel the need to "explain" anything when you walk in with a fat girl on your arm? If your confident in yourself and who you are ppl will get the picture that you don't want/need their input on who you choose to be with.


Exactly right, and, as BB noted, it's called growing up. And the sooner you can adopt a grown-up attitude about your core values--and I would assume that who/what attracts you would be a critical one--the more quickly lots of other (good) grown-up life things will follow. If you adopt confidence and unwavering assuredness regarding the type of woman you're attracted to, in time your friends who remained mired in adolescence over such issues will come to admire you, and perhaps follow your lead (if not in type, at least in action.) If they don't, well--maybe it's time to adopt more mature friends.

FA-ness isn't for sissies; it is in large part about claming a stake on your identity. And why would you want to drag that out?


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## saucywench (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Is the opinion of an employer null, void and inconsequential (and don't think it doesn't happen - like I said, show me any FAs who have risen to the top levels of career success)? We are talking about the real world here, not the world we would like it to be.
> 
> Another point is that the FA must deal with the judgements of people who will wonder why he/she would wish his/her significant other to be in a physical state that is 'unhealthy'. This is a growing problem as obesity continues to be ever more demonized in our society.


The inherent "problem" lies not in fat itself or people who are fat; the problem lies in people who use fat in an abstract manner to "demonize," as you say.

"*Whosoever would be a* *man*, *must be a nonconformist*." - Ralph Waldo Emerson, from "Self-Reliance"

Just because people kowtow to popular consensus does not mean that consensus is morally right and/or just.


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## grey1969 (May 19, 2006)

Jane said:


> Grey, I've had excellent jobs, and would NEVER have worked with anyone with this attitude. And it was ME lugging my fat ass around all day.
> 
> Edited after Saucy's post.
> 
> ...




As far as the attitude about weight of oneself or one's spouse affecting job prospects, well it is certainly not going to be expressed overtly, but it will be there under the surface just like there is still covert discrimination against women and visible minorities in the workplace.

Actually the ladies do have a choice. There are many strategies that one could employ to lose weight. My wife has done it very successfully much to my chagrin.

And this tired old saying the women here keep bringing up about about men just 'growing some balls' or 'be a man' is really not accomplishing anything. As Conrad so eloquently stated in this very thread, there should be a mutual support of FAs and BBWs to help one another with their self-acceptance. it seems the position of the majority of people here is that you have no tolerance for someone that is unsure of themselves as an FA. For me it really doesn't matter. I have already accomplished my goal of marrying a BBW. I thought I might come here to share some of my thoughts on this important issue. The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives. So it seems they either claim all is well and they have no issues with their FA orientation or they probably just slink away feeling the way Lilly did after her first experience at a NAAFA meeting where she was looked down on for not having totally come to terms with herself as a fat person. It is becoming ever clearer to me why the size acceptance movement has stalled out.


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## AnnMarie (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged *fat* women.




You know, Wayne, I've never said boo to you while you've been here. I think we can agree on that?

But this line is a good example of why people aren't taking kindly to you. Why'd you have to include the "fat" in a string of what can only be construed as intended insults to that "type" of woman? Not that any of them are ok, but here of all places, why would you lay that in there except to push buttons of the women.

I mean, if the guys are here, it's pretty much understood the women are fat, so your inclusion of that along with bitter and middle-aged makes it sound very much like the "fat" is also part of their issue and problem. I'm not saying there aren't bitter, middle-aged fat women here - of course there are, just like there are bitter younger, bitter older men, bitter younger men, etc. Bitter isn't very discriminating.

I'm not saying you meant that, so don't start getting upset with me. I'm merely pointing out an instance about your delivery, and why it's probably rubbing many here like a cheese grater. 

Anyway, you're right about agreeing with Conrad on mutual support... it's a path we all need to travel, and sometimes a young FA can use a confident, chubby helping hand.


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## RedVelvet (May 19, 2006)

> The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives.



whoa whoa whoa...ok.....of COURSE you arent talking about me...ahem.....I aint gonna cop to being middle aged (unless I am going to be dying young...er...ish)

But there is a big difference between not wanting to tolerate something.....and being bitter.

Also, for my part, and of course I am only speaking for me.. I said I have no problem helping someone deal with their issues, but that I wont tolerate them as a dating/romance/hot monkey love partner while someone is still working out his issues.

Friends, ok...

Lover? no way.

I would imagine the _bitter ole fat hags_ on this board ..ahem...might make that distinction to some extent, too...


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## saucywench (May 19, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> ....I think it often comes down two issues we here in the US pay far too little mind to. Character and counseling.


Oh, yeah. This topic deserves a thread all its own.

I think character (or self-esteem, or respect of inalienable individual rights--something along those lines) should be required in school as much as the three Rs. That is one rare instance where brainwashing would be a good thing.



Boteroesque Babe said:


> ....People will spend limitless amounts of money and energy on physical health and fitness, following every diet, hitting the gym every day, yet they shun the pursuit of mental health and emotional well-being....


Isn't that a sad commentary on how little we as humans have evolved? And why is so little ever mentioned about the emotional and psychological ramifications of beating a fat kid (or adult) down because of their weight--be it friends, family, strangers? And why is it rarely mentioned the physical, psychological, and emotional toll of, for example, teenage girls who are forever scarred (in one or more of those ways) by the pressure to diet and exercise who wind up bulemic or anorexic, often paying the price with their lives? Why is it deemed better to be dead than fat?

I will _never_ understand this world, yet I try to navigate through it the best way I know how. But I will say that I am quite content to be that nonconformist. Sometimes I feel that my fatness provides me with an excellent (and blatant) way to express my "up yours" attitude toward a society that would judge me by such arbitrary (and idiotic) standards. And it makes me appreciate and value more many people who dare to express their individuality via nonconformist standards.


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## MisticalMisty (May 19, 2006)

jayfa said:


> . I am ready for this - however I'm not ready to just randomly sit down with my friends and explain everything about my preferences to them (which is a stupid idea - its not that big of a deal). I guess keeping something secret for so long results in building it up to something bigger than it is.


If you aren't ready to explain and defend your preference..you aren't ready to date a fat girl..she deserves someone that won't fear what his friends/family think of who he's dating..


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## Durin (May 19, 2006)

I think the difficult thing for me when I was a young FA is that I did not know there was such a thing as an FA.

I did not find out about the FA/BBW culture till I was in college in the early 90's. It did not really affect anyone else that I had not "come out" in high school because I did not date anyone in high school.

Anyway the fear of recognizing my love for Fat women was not about being seen with them. It was as someone already said in this thread, about being different. 

Exposing how I was different for all the world to see was not something I was ready to do at 16. 

:doh: 

Youth is wasted on the young.


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## billyclubb (May 19, 2006)

I dont make fun of fat girls around my friends and I dont deny liking fat girls, BUT I also have never told any one that I do like fat girls. Im scared to tell my family because my father and brother are always pausing tv (we have tivo) when a "hot" skinny girl is on screen and ,sadly, make fun of fat women on tv to (not in public thank god). For me I think it would be like telling an old fashioned father I was gay, I dont think he would disown me or anything lol, but Im sure he would be dissapointed. As for showing I like fat girls by dating them Ive been cursed to only like skinny girls so far (personality wise) usually no heavier then 130 pounds. Of course I have friends who are fat girls but ther havnt been any im close enough to to date. So im not sure what to do! should I even have to tell my family ,or anyone for that matter,that I like big girls? It doesnt seem like it matters that much but I feel like If I told them I would be getting something really big off my chest. Instead Im deleting all evidence of me being to this site, and other related sites from my computer (my parents like to snoop, reading aim logs, recent documents, etc). Any advice from someone who has had a similar predicament would be greatly appreciated!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> As far as the attitude about weight of oneself or one's spouse affecting job prospects, well it is certainly not going to be expressed overtly, but it will be there under the surface just like there is still covert discrimination against women and visible minorities in the workplace.
> 
> Actually the ladies do have a choice. There are many strategies that one could employ to lose weight. My wife has done it very successfully much to my chagrin.
> 
> And this tired old saying the women here keep bringing up about about men just 'growing some balls' or 'be a man' is really not accomplishing anything. As Conrad so eloquently stated in this very thread, there should be a mutual support of FAs and BBWs to help one another with their self-acceptance. it seems the position of the majority of people here is that you have no tolerance for someone that is unsure of themselves as an FA. For me it really doesn't matter. I have already accomplished my goal of marrying a BBW. I thought I might come here to share some of my thoughts on this important issue. The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives. So it seems they either claim all is well and they have no issues with their FA orientation or they probably just slink away feeling the way Lilly did after her first experience at a NAAFA meeting where she was looked down on for not having totally come to terms with herself as a fat person. It is becoming ever clearer to me why the size acceptance movement has stalled out.



Come on. Having a fat wife is not going to have people thinking you can't do your job, or that you're lazy, or that you're a bad person. A little kooky, maybe, but it's not going to stop you from accomplishing anything at your job. 

A person can't simply quit being fat. You can drop dating someone rather quickly, or divorce them, or whatever. Losing weight takes time, and rarely is it permanent. And even if a person IS successful in losing weight, it almost definately will creep back on, whether or not they eat properly and exercise.

Just because the guy who owns the boards says anything doesn't make it true. Sure, we should accept and support FAs, but no one is owed an ass-kissing just for dating fat women. There's a huge difference between a guy (or woman) who comes here and says, "I'm not sure of my sexual preference," and someone who knows their sexual preference, and lies about it or treats fat women (or men) disrespectfully.

Someone who can't take a ribbing about who they're dating should try being fat or queer for a day. I bet they'd find their lives are much easier than they imagined.


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## AnnMarie (May 19, 2006)

billyclubb said:


> I dont make fun of fat girls around my friends and I dont deny liking fat girls, ... Instead Im deleting all evidence of me being to this site, and other related sites from my computer (my parents like to snoop, reading aim logs, recent documents, etc). Any advice from someone who has had a similar predicament would be greatly appreciated!



Your acts of cover up are direct evidence of your denial. You shouldn't have to sit down and have a big conversation, but you should be able to bring home a fat girlfriend and let your actions speak for themselves. 

As others have said here already, do not date a fat girl until you're ready to take her seriously and respect her by letting her meet family and friends. If you're not able/ready to do something like that, you shouldn't be dating her.... your shame shouldn't ever be someone else's problem. 

Best of luck in just being you. 

(A good start would be not covering your tracks online, at least then they'd KNOW you like fat girls, and shocked/upset or not... the fact is out.)


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## Jane (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> As far as the attitude about weight of oneself or one's spouse affecting job prospects, well it is certainly not going to be expressed overtly, but it will be there under the surface just like there is still covert discrimination against women and visible minorities in the workplace.
> 
> Actually the ladies do have a choice. There are many strategies that one could employ to lose weight. My wife has done it very successfully much to my chagrin.
> 
> And this tired old saying the women here keep bringing up about about men just 'growing some balls' or 'be a man' is really not accomplishing anything. As Conrad so eloquently stated in this very thread, there should be a mutual support of FAs and BBWs to help one another with their self-acceptance. it seems the position of the majority of people here is that you have no tolerance for someone that is unsure of themselves as an FA. For me it really doesn't matter. I have already accomplished my goal of marrying a BBW. I thought I might come here to share some of my thoughts on this important issue. The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives. So it seems they either claim all is well and they have no issues with their FA orientation or they probably just slink away feeling the way Lilly did after her first experience at a NAAFA meeting where she was looked down on for not having totally come to terms with herself as a fat person. It is becoming ever clearer to me why the size acceptance movement has stalled out.


Grey, you have proven that my first impressions of you were correct.


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## Edens_heel (May 19, 2006)

Jane said:


> Grey, you have proven that my first impressions of you were correct.


That seemed rather uncalled for - he was expressing an opinion, albeit an upopular one and not necesarily one I agree with, but this one line response is nothing more than a slight, when this is supposed to be a forum for discussion, not insults. Let him speak his peace and then refute it if necessary, but don't just try to take someone down a notch because you don't like them. It just comes off as immature.


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## LillyBBBW (May 19, 2006)

Oh come now. Stategy is not going to stop a gang of people from making fun of us in the supermarket. While you abandon us to walk into the sunshine of the closeted life we're left standing there to face the crowd. Yeah, it's great that your wife was able to lose weight but there are people here who've had WEIGHT LOSS SURGERY and can still give your wife a run for her money on the fattest day she ever lived so no, us ladies do not have a choice. 

Bitter? Of course! We face every day what you don't want to face at all. We cannot feel sorry for you when we do not even allow it for ourselves. 




grey1969 said:


> As far as the attitude about weight of oneself or one's spouse affecting job prospects, well it is certainly not going to be expressed overtly, but it will be there under the surface just like there is still covert discrimination against women and visible minorities in the workplace.
> 
> Actually the ladies do have a choice. There are many strategies that one could employ to lose weight. My wife has done it very successfully much to my chagrin.
> 
> And this tired old saying the women here keep bringing up about about men just 'growing some balls' or 'be a man' is really not accomplishing anything. As Conrad so eloquently stated in this very thread, there should be a mutual support of FAs and BBWs to help one another with their self-acceptance. it seems the position of the majority of people here is that you have no tolerance for someone that is unsure of themselves as an FA. For me it really doesn't matter. I have already accomplished my goal of marrying a BBW. I thought I might come here to share some of my thoughts on this important issue. The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives. So it seems they either claim all is well and they have no issues with their FA orientation or they probably just slink away feeling the way Lilly did after her first experience at a NAAFA meeting where she was looked down on for not having totally come to terms with herself as a fat person. It is becoming ever clearer to me why the size acceptance movement has stalled out.


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## billyclubb (May 19, 2006)

AnnMarie said:


> Your acts of cover up are direct evidence of your denial. You shouldn't have to sit down and have a big conversation, but you should be able to bring home a fat girlfriend and let your actions speak for themselves.
> 
> As others have said here already, do not date a fat girl until you're ready to take her seriously and respect her by letting her meet family and friends. If you're not able/ready to do something like that, you shouldn't be dating her.... your shame shouldn't ever be someone else's problem.
> 
> ...



Im young and stupid what else can I say. btw I appreciate the advice especialy from you AnnMarie


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## NFA (May 19, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Actually the ladies do have a choice. There are many strategies that one could employ to lose weight. My wife has done it very successfully much to my chagrin.
> 
> And this tired old saying the women here keep bringing up about about men just 'growing some balls' or 'be a man' is really not accomplishing anything. As Conrad so eloquently stated in this very thread, there should be a mutual support of FAs and BBWs to help one another with their self-acceptance. it seems the position of the majority of people here is that you have no tolerance for someone that is unsure of themselves as an FA. For me it really doesn't matter. I have already accomplished my goal of marrying a BBW. I thought I might come here to share some of my thoughts on this important issue. The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives. So it seems they either claim all is well and they have no issues with their FA orientation or they probably just slink away feeling the way Lilly did after her first experience at a NAAFA meeting where she was looked down on for not having totally come to terms with herself as a fat person. It is becoming ever clearer to me why the size acceptance movement has stalled out.



Oh, give me a BREAK. So you're taking the, "Fat people deserve abuse because they could just be thin" tactic? Oh, well, thanks for shedding your illustrious wisdom on us. Why I didn't know you could lose weight. I'll go run out and try now that I've been told this fascinating new idea.

There is a saying I like the describes dieting very accurate. Losing weight is as easy as holding your breath. Keeping it off is as easy as continuing to hold your breath. The reason people like you think you can suggest that fat people have it coming to them because they've "chosen" to be fat (and the reason far too many fat people harbor that sentiment themselves and keep trying diet after diet) is because weight loss is fairily simple to achieve but nearly impossible to maintain. In no small part because the "treatment" is entirely arbitrary given that fat people have never been shown to collectively eat more than thin people. On average, they eat the same. So why then the "strategy" of disordered eating to undo fatness? Because it'll work for a time. It has the illusion of success. Clearly duped you good.

In the real world, however, diets fail 95-99% of the time and most of those failed diets result in the person regaining more weight than was lost in the first place. And yet, there are still people like you that think fat people are just too weak willed or stupid to lose weight. And it is precisely that kind of unthinking prejudice which is why the experiences of fat people and the experiences of FA's are not even remotely comprable.

Being an FA is easy. I don't say that as a BBW. I say that as an FA. Yeah, any self-hating FA needs to get over themselves. This is one case where tough love has much to be said for it. If an FA thinks their world will end if people find out they like fat girls, the only reasonable response is to tell them that this simply isn't so. There is no reason we should humor notions we know to be untrue.

Fat people have no luxury of a "closet" to hide in shame. FA's have no right to think they deserve to live in shame either. I think that is an unacceptable way to live. I don't tolerate closeted FA's because I can see no good reason for it. If it seems harsh, it is precisely because the notions entertained by the closet crew are divorced from reality and I want them to learn to accept themselves and enjoy who they are as soon as possible because it is genuinely the easiest and most rewarding thing they will EVER do.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 19, 2006)

Wow. A lot to comment on.

1) Just as "fat" isn't a pejorative term, neither is "middle-aged," in my opinion.

2) I'm not sure it proves anything that someone doesn't want their parents perusing their Dimensions playground. I don't leave my Dim tracks in the histories of computers others have access to, either. It's not a shame thing, it's a privacy thing.

3) Grey, you tell us you've accomplished your goal in marrying a BBW, but you left out the part where she's unhappy with her weight and struggles to lose it. I don't want to be rude in asking, but was that also part of The Dream? Regarding the rest of your comments, many of them seem kind of disingenuous. I don't think anything any "bitter, middle-aged fat women" have said here has been any more frightening to young FAs than what some of the other FAs have said about their living an incomplete life.

4) Can one be bitter with their head thrown back and their legs in the air? Hmm... gonna investigate that.

5) I'd love for some female FAs to weigh in on the "woe is me" thing. Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention, but I've not heard a lot of in-the-closet complaints from the FFAs.

6) Okay, maybe I did wanna be rude in asking.


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## NFA (May 20, 2006)

I've always been rather fond of bitter, middle aged fat women myself.


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## Chimpi (May 20, 2006)

missaf said:


> I'm teaching my son to be confident in himself, and confident in his actions. That carries over to telling me what he likes and dislikes, but also it's helped with me understanding how his mind works.
> 
> We were in line at the grocery store once, and he saw a really pretty BBW that was bigger than I, and he blushed and buried his head in my shirt. I asked him what was wrong, and he said "She has a cute fat belly like you, Mom!" I replied, "Do you think she's pretty?" which he answered, yes, and I encouraged him to say that he thought she was very pretty, and not just think it. So he did, and the lady looked like someone dropped a grenade at her feet! LOL
> 
> The other day my son called me a beautiful butterfly, and he's right. I've undergone some serious growth and changes since my divorce. I've learned to embrace my past, my fat, and my life, and I've been out of my cocoon, and even kids can be taught to see beauty, express their desire for it, and not be ashamed. Part of activism, I think, is teaching kids this very thing, so that no one has to come out of hiding, they are already firm in their beliefs and know how to express it when they realize it.




First of all, I have to point out that your post, missaf, was excellent. Gave me a smile to read that. The fact that you're such a courteous parent to the point of nudging your son to compliment a random woman on the fact, but that he would be sweet and sensible enough to point out such a thing. 



grey1969 said:


> Unfortunately, people are judged based on the appearance of their significant other. Having a 'good-looking' wife is a status symbol for men (when I say good-looking in this context I am referring to societal standards in which fat is considered unsightly). An FA must be willing to deal with this reality, and as Turin said, be willing to be somewhat of an outsider. Generally, the courageous and decent among us will do so and the others will generally be unhappy and wish they did.



Secondly, I would like to say that I do understand where grey is coming from, in a sense. In my eyes, how I see large businessmen (not large as in body type, but social status), such as CEO's and owners, they're very career oriented, very power-hungry to some extent, and like to drive and push to excel. In that mindset, I would assume that, for the most part, you would have the "in" thoughts and preferences: The large house to prove social status, the hybrid car or the large, expensive car to prove social status, the "trophy/perfect wife" to prove social status, the perfect children, and such like that. *shrugs* Obviously there are always exceptions, such as Pink and her husband, but for the most part, that is what I have noticed. Maybe it is just here in South Florida. Who knows.

Now, on to the original question, I do not associate Fat Admirers telling people about their preference with "coming out", either (as many have stated). You do not have to fit in. You do not have to prove what you like and that you are "worthy". There is nothing more special about John (random name), who happens to love Pamela Anderson or Carmen Electra (granted, Carmen is essentially a very beautiful woman), than there is about you, who happens to love Buffie or AnnMarie (Haha, see the comparisons?... see what I did there? Teehee!). You have just the same right to love fat women as John does skinny, blonde, and large breasted women.
In the same mind-frame, I see no point to any case of a need to "come out". You do not have to sit down with John and claim "I love fat chicks. Please do not judge me. Understand what I love", just like John would never have to sit down with you and claim "I love skinny/bony chicks. Please do not judge me. Understand what I love." 
Preference is individual, not universal. There is nothing abnormal about being a Fat Admirer (male or female, for that matter, since I have not "recognized" that, hehe).

*pref&#183;er&#183;ence*
_n._ 

1-A. The selecting of someone or something over another or others. 
1-B. The right or chance to so choose. 
1-C. Someone or something so chosen. See Synonyms at choice. 

That is how I would explain it.


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## fatlane (May 20, 2006)

I'm not in a closet, but there are people who will build one around me, all the same.

There are big women who refuse to believe they can be beautiful without qualifications like, "in your mind" or "to other guys with your kink". They need to cut that out. But can they if loads of other people have found them to have "such a pretty face, but..."?

Then there are women who are instantly suspicious of any sort of romantic overtures - is this guy setting me up for an ugly girl dance or some other tasteless prank? If they've been burned on that before, I can't blame them for keeping the guard up in social situations.

Sadly, those keep frustrated FA's frustrated.

On the other hand, here's a note to all you jittery youths out there. You can stake out your territory. Believe me, your pals will be relieved you're not competing head-to-head with them for mating privileges. Just say, "You can have your skinny girls, I want the big women!" and they'll be happy to steer the large ladies in your direction. Unless they're also FAs. Fortunately, there's plenty of large to go around, so you'll have someone you can room with at out-of-town events.

Just say it like you mean it. Sure, it's being different, but it's not as bad as being gay, black, handicapped, or Libertarian.


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## eightyseven (May 20, 2006)

I kind of touched on this in my last thread I started, but to me "coming out" is more of a personal experience rather than the explication of one's preferences to colleagues. It's more about being comfortable with what you, not others, enjoy... because ideals like beauty are so entirely subjective anyways. 

For example, my roommate and I were talking about a girl we both knew and while he was entirely smitten with her, I didn't think she was attractive in the slightest (and that's not just because she wasnt a BBW). We both looked at each other like the other was crazy, both though "you're missing out," and moved on. 

I don't need to make a big deal out of my preferences and proclaim that I like fat girls in order to feel comfortable with myself. It's all about the way I go about life... who I'm drawn to, who I'm attracted to. "Coming out" is just merely doing what feels right to you... it's not a moment, but an embracing of a lifestyle decision that develops over time.


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## missaf (May 20, 2006)

She didn't say you were stupid, she said you need to respect fat women and yourself by stopping the masquerade.


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## Jane (May 20, 2006)

Edens_heel said:


> That seemed rather uncalled for - he was expressing an opinion, albeit an upopular one and not necesarily one I agree with, but this one line response is nothing more than a slight, when this is supposed to be a forum for discussion, not insults. Let him speak his peace and then refute it if necessary, but don't just try to take someone down a notch because you don't like them. It just comes off as immature.


You would have liked it better than the three pager I had written, trust me.


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## TallFatSue (May 20, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Is the opinion of an employer null, void and inconsequential (and don't think it doesn't happen - like I said, show me any FAs who have risen to the top levels of career success)? We are talking about the real world here, not the world we would like it to be.





Jane said:


> Grey, I've had excellent jobs, and would NEVER have worked with anyone with this attitude. And it was ME lugging my fat ass around all day.


Yep, I have an excellent job in management, and I haul around the most fat in our workplace too. Obesity has probably thrown some roadblocks in my path, but I tend to just barge through them and move forward. A few years ago one of the big muckymucks originally passed over me for this promotion in favor of a young woman who had less seniority and experience, and was less capable, but was drop dead gorgeous. Yes I perceived discrimination, not necessarily because I was so fat, but because the sweet young thing was a manipulator who made the muckymuck think more with his pants than his brain. So I bided my time, and within about 6 months she crashed and burned on the job and resigned, the muckymuck wiped the omelette off his face, and the promotion was mine. After her spectacular failure in this position, I've been hauling my big tall jiggly fat body around the office very well indeed, thank you. Maybe the good Lord has granted me enough sense to know when to choose my battles and when to act.  

I'm also an optimist who tends to look at the bright side of life. Some people just need to find things to discriminate against all the time. Maybe my obesity gives them something very visible to fixate upon, and while they're obsessing about my large layers of lard, I sneak past them before they know it. 



grey1969 said:


> As far as the attitude about weight of oneself or one's spouse affecting job prospects, well it is certainly not going to be expressed overtly, but it will be there under the surface just like there is still covert discrimination against women and visible minorities in the workplace.


I don't know Grey's exact situation, but to judge solely from his lengthy posts, he needs to spend less time complaining about his lot in life as an FA and more time doing something positive about it. Maybe it's just the office manager in me talking, kinda like one member of my staff whom I need to prod all the time ("if you actually do the work rather than complain and make excuses, then it won't be in front of you long enough to complain about it"). Yes society is unjust and unfair to everyone to at least some degree, but living in our society sure beats being a hunter/gatherer, so I'll bumble my way through life the best I can. Or as my husband (who can be quite a wise ass himself sometimes) once said, "You've got to seize the bull by the horns instead of the [email protected]#$%!"  

Sue

PS. Sayyyy, I just had a strange thought. I've read that if you want to advance in your company, you might need to emulate your boss. And since I'm the boss in my department, and I'm the fattest person in our company.... Hmm, I'd better check to see if any of my staff are gaining weight.


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## BBW Betty (May 20, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Unfortunately, people are judged based on the appearance of their significant other. Having a 'good-looking' wife is a status symbol for men (when I say good-looking in this context I am referring to societal standards in which fat is considered unsightly). An FA must be willing to deal with this reality, and as Turin said, be willing to be somewhat of an outsider. Generally, the courageous and decent among us will do so and the others will generally be unhappy and wish they did.



I'm going out on a limb here to agree with grey. Believe it or not, we ARE judged by the company we keep. Yes, there are instances where the socially important have gone against the grain, and that is great. They are forging a path for the rest of the FAs to do the same. However, it's still not commonplace.

My sister's husband--they are "imiportant" people in a tiny town, at least in their eyes, and both are constantly worried about image. My sis has said he would "spring for a tummy tuck," and she once said that she couldn't even go to KMart without makeup because she has an image to maintain.

As for the comment about "bitter, middle-aged fat women," I think we need to put it back into context. I think grey was saying that if these youngsters sense women who are insensitive to the fears the kids have about not conforming, the kids might be afraid to get to know fat girls. I'm not saying it was a nice comment, because it wasn't, but just like religious and political quotes, we need to try to leave things in context, or they become meaningless, inflamatory catch phrases.

That said, then those kids also need to hear stories about confident FAs and fat women--Sue is a fantastic example--who have gone against convention and succeeded. This is where the real insipiration to be true to themselves and the fat women they love and appreciate will come from.


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## grey1969 (May 20, 2006)

AnnMarie said:


> You know, Wayne, I've never said boo to you while you've been here. I think we can agree on that?
> 
> But this line is a good example of why people aren't taking kindly to you. Why'd you have to include the "fat" in a string of what can only be construed as intended insults to that "type" of woman? Not that any of them are ok, but here of all places, why would you lay that in there except to push buttons of the women.
> 
> ...



Well I told you before and I am telling you again, you are clearly the best moderator on Dimensions. I hope the others will observe your objective, even-handed approach and try to follow suit.

People here aren't taking kindly to me for two reasons. First, I am not afraid to state unpopular, provocative opinions often on taboo isssues. In many cases, this is regarding unfortunate truths about the realities of being fat or an FA (such as the health implications). Secondly, I am often brutally honest (i.e. tactless) in my delivery and this naturally offends people, particularly those to which my statements refer. However, the danger is in totally disregarding the message because you do not like how it was delivered. An intelligent person should expect better of oneself.

Now Ann-Marie is agreeing with me that there are some "bitter middle-aged fat women" here. I agree with her that there are people of all walks of life that are somewhat bitter (myself included). And I am not trying to insinuate that the middle-aged (and other age) fat people do not have a right to their bitterness due to the way they have been discriminated against by society. I do not, as one sadly misguided individual suggested, think the fat people deserve the bad treatment they have received from society. This is a ridiculous accusation. I just simply stated that it is possible for fat people to lose weight. It is damn hard to do, and I know it myself. I am 5'7" and 185 lb. So I have a BMI of 29.5. So guess what, I am 0.5 BMI units away from joining the obese club. Have I tried to exercise and lose weight? Yes. Is it difficult to do? Damn rights. Do I look down on others who have also failed to do so? What do you think? (the answer is no)

So in essence what I am saying is that the bitterness that some fat people feel is understandable and I have empathy for you. Just don't turn on the people who would like to be your supporters. If you, as fat people, would show a little empathy for the FAs as Conrad intends in the Dimensions mission statement, we could all grow together as people. There is no reason we should be fighting each other. Like Rainyday said on another thread recently, we are all on the same team here. But that does not mean that everyone should have to kowtow to the 'party line'.


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## Jane (May 20, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Well I told you before and I am telling you again, you are clearly the best moderator on Dimensions. I hope the others will observe your objective, even-handed approach and try to follow suit.
> 
> People here aren't taking kindly to me for two reasons. First, I am not afraid to state unpopular, provocative opinions often on taboo isssues. In many cases, this is regarding unfortunate truths about the realities of being fat or an FA (such as the health implications). Secondly, I am often brutally honest (i.e. tactless) in my delivery and this naturally offends people, particularly those to which my statements refer. However, the danger is in totally disregarding the message because you do not like how it was delivered. An intelligent person should expect better of oneself.
> 
> ...


Grey, sometimes when you post things I don't agree with, I don't even respond because it will be taken as a continuation of Hyde Park discussions.

Sometimes you actually say something I can agree with, and I try to comment on that.

I love and appreciate every FA here WHO IS NOT ASHAMED OF THEIR PARTICULAR YEARNINGS and WHO DOES NOT ACT LIKE HE IS ASHAMED TO BE SEEN WITH A FAT GIRL.

For me to feel like someone is ashamed to be seen with me, is the most humiliating experience there is. I'd rather come out of a bathroom with toilet paper hanging out of my pants. THAT I can laugh off.

How many of the fat girls (middle-aged and bitter or not) would act like they were ashamed to be with someone who appreciates them? Yep, I don't see that happening. Yet, I've been out with men who acted EXACTLY that way. Thus, I take on my own car unless I know how the person I'm with is going to treat me.

You let us know that you think someone's business future is largely determined by who they are seen with. Thank you. THAT is what I meant about my first impression of you.

I have a friend who, years ago, did not have a prejudiced bone in his body. He and I were talking and he used the "n" word. I called him on it. He said, "Everyone says that." I said, "No, people around me don't." He had no particular racist tendencies, never had, still didn't. He simply acted like he thought he was expected to act. In doing so, he demeaned people who cared about him.

Further, your attitude that we can always do something about our weight is more indications of your attitude. I've gained and lost about five fat people in my lifetime. My adult son weighs 135 pounds. Do I eat more than him? No, never have. He lives on fast food and Coca Cola. I don't. He never exercises, I do. What's the difference? I don't know. It no longer matters. I beat my head against a wall about it far too long.

Part of acceptance, I guess, is resignation. This is who I am. I like me.


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## gangstadawg (May 20, 2006)

fatlane said:


> Just say it like you mean it. Sure, it's being different, but it's not as bad as being gay, black, handicapped, or Libertarian.


?!!? hey im black.


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## MissStacie (May 20, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Come on. Having a fat wife is not going to have people thinking you can't do your job, or that you're lazy, or that you're a bad person. A little kooky, maybe, but it's not going to stop you from accomplishing anything at your job.
> 
> 
> I agree with you, SL, but tell this to my husband who didn't bring me to his office at a local business school because he feared that "they would judge him and make his job more difficult".
> ...


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## ripley (May 20, 2006)

I've been thinking about TSL's post about her friend, and why women settle. Her friend is dating a guy that apparently doesn't have much on the ball. But reading this thread...maybe her friend _refused_ to settle? Refused to settle for a successful man that would consider her a detriment to his advancement? Refuse to settle for being someone's "couch date"? Maybe she'd rather date an unsuccessful guy that will take her anywhere, treat her like an equal, than one who won't. 

I guess I am just greedy. I don't want to have to choose between a successful man and a man who accepts me fully and doesn't give a fig if dating me means he will have to work a little harder, take a little flak. Perhaps even if that means trading career advancement for romantic bliss. 

I understand that dating a fat woman (especially a ss one, like me) can sometimes not be the easiest thing for a man. I have all the sympathy for the hurdles he faces; I face them everyday, to the nth power. 

I guess I want someone for whom the joy of loving me and being loved by me trumps all those other things. Probably why I am alone, huh?


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 20, 2006)

What a moving pair of posts. 

Stacie, I remember your husband raising this issue years ago -- either a job or a promotion he felt he didn't get because of his wife's size -- and I'm afraid I formed a negative opinion then. This seems to reinforce that.

I wish I had some advice for you, other than to keep working on him. I guess.

Ripley. I'm so with you. I've often looked at hyper-strivers with confusion and pity. They're always "on" and I wonder if they even enjoy what they're working so hard to achieve. The thought they'd choose a partner (or disrespect the one they have) for the sake of career advancement? Seems very unevolved to me.

Again, it comes down to character.

Great post.


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## Tina (May 20, 2006)

RedVelvet said:


> whoa whoa whoa...ok.....of COURSE you arent talking about me...ahem.....I aint gonna cop to being middle aged (unless I am going to be dying young...er...ish)
> 
> But there is a big difference between not wanting to tolerate something.....and being bitter.
> 
> ...



I agree, Velvet. Guys don't have it easy, either, but we shouldn't be criticized for not wanting to be with someone who is ambivalent about being seen with us. No thanks.


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## MissStacie (May 20, 2006)

BB: I guess I remember what you brought up from years past, too, and not much has changed. It does, indeed, come down to character, and not just of the FA in question, but the people he/she chooses to associate with. My husbands particular situation at that time was one of working for people that had their heads so far up their collective asses, that they ONLY thought of themselves. They hired "pretty" people, as a way to get people to get in the door, a recruitment strategy I guess. He always tells the story of looking at a fellow coworkers wedding pictures with everyone, and all they could comment was how "fat that one bridesmaid was". I had been disgusted at his attitude relating to not introducing me prior to that, but after that story, I had no desire to be in the same room with those people, and if not for the almighty dollar, he wouldn't have associated with them either.

I guess sometimes the "coming out" is not so much a big step as for as the person coming out as it does for the people they are telling. Character is everything, and if the people that you hang with are of lesser character, it might be a hurtful and stressful ordeal.

I wish it wasn't that hard. I mean, it's not hard for me to be fat, sexy and beautiful, right? 

BB, as always, you've done a fine job of getting everyones' creative brain waves working....nicely done.

Hugs,


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## Tina (May 20, 2006)

Stacie, that stinks.

The ex-husband was never afraid to bring me anywhere, but his co-workers constantly asked him why he liked me, why he'd want to be with a fat woman, and were always trying to set him up with thin women.

It can be difficult for guys, but a man who is secure in his choices will stand firm and eventually people get the message. I do agree that it's much harder for the fat women in society, but some guys have it rough, too. I think a lot of it depends on the person, their social circle, family, locality and such. For some there's no stress at all; for others, it's a trip under the microscope. Bottom line is, we all have to make our choices and stick by them if they're what we really want, no matter what that choice is regarding.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

We live in a society in which people are under a major amount of social pressure to conform with what their parents and friends think is normal. I was lucky in that my friends and my dad were supportive. But I did catch a lot of flack from the women in my family when they found out. Openly dating fat women is still not considered to be "normal" outside of the bbw community. I think this is ridiculous, but the American mainstream is ridiculous. 





jayfa said:


> I struggle with the issue of "coming out" but it in no way is about shame. I think most of the fears of coming out maybe come from having this secret that you haven't told your friends and family. The longer you keep it in, the more you fear what they may say.
> 
> But I think the main thing about being a FA in the cloest is whether or not you are prepared to openly date a fat woman. If you are, I guess you are ready to come out. I am ready for this - however I'm not ready to just randomly sit down with my friends and explain everything about my preferences to them (which is a stupid idea - its not that big of a deal). I guess keeping something secret for so long results in building it up to something bigger than it is.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

Scary but true! Who knows what those extremists will do next?



Jes said:


> Just wait--the Bush Admin still has 3 more years in office!


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

Honey, it's not always that simple. While the opinions of others are everything, they do matter in the business world. People face a lot of social pressure in this country and discrimination is real. 

I don't believe in hiding my preference, but I could understand why other men might do it.



Jane said:


> WHY would you give a flying f what anyone who would judge you according to your spouse's looks would think. Their opinion is NULL, VOID, INCONSEQUENTIAL.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 20, 2006)

MissStacie said:


> They hired "pretty" people, as a way to get people to get in the door, a recruitment strategy I guess.


Most of the people I work with are exceptionally attractive musicians (even the non-musicians are generally knock-outs), and I see firsthand the way people respond to traditional physical beauty. To be honest, it can jack up a vibe like little else. I understand the real world and know why pretty people do well in high-end sales situations. But when one stops thinking of beauty as an incidental pleasure, and starts manipulating it to please clients, _to the detriment of those who don't conform to the accepted beauty ideal_, it becomes prejudice.

That's why when I see evidence this _isn't_ being done, it makes me more inclined to give that company my business. Seeing heavy or average looking people in print and TV ads makes me wanna throw money at the advertiser. And an actor or model in a wheelchair, when the wheelchair isn't a part of the ad? Damn near gives me a commerce hard-on.

Money talks, and this is how to make it speak for _our_ side.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

True. And some people face similar issues when it comes to dating outside one's culture or one's religious faith.

I think the herd mentality is ridiculous. But I deal with it every day in my lower middle class version of corporate America.




Webmaster said:


> It's not fair, but it can be a big deal in certain situations. Keep in mind that most young people have an extremely developed herd instinct. You have to fit in at all cost. Even as a guy I remember situations where you simply could not show up in school unless you had the latest gadget or wore the clothes you were expected to wear, or have your hair cut a certain way. Now dating and your choice of date is about the ultimate accessory by which kids are judged. So if a young FA all of a sudden shows up at a dance with a 300 pound girl instead of the 120 pound cheerleader type, it is a huge deal. It is coming out. It is going against the flow. It is breaking all the conformity rules. It can be life-altering.
> 
> That said, there are always all the qualifiers. Some kids never care about following trends. For them it may be easier. Or someone is already an outcast anyway, so linking up with another outcast simply reinforces his image. Increasingly, smaller fat girls "pass" because there are so many more today than there were. A cute 200-pound girls would probably barely raise an eyebrow whereas when I was a teen in Switzerland, that was very different.
> 
> ...


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## grey1969 (May 20, 2006)

Jane said:


> Grey, sometimes when you post things I don't agree with, I don't even respond because it will be taken as a continuation of Hyde Park discussions.
> 
> Sometimes you actually say something I can agree with, and I try to comment on that.
> 
> ...



I agree that no fat person should accept having a spouse who is ashamed of them. On the other hand there is a difference between not being totally comfortable and being ashamed. Simply put, there are too few FAs who are totally comfortable with their preference. Hell for that matter even if you put together all the FAs that were 'out of the closet' there probably are many fewer to go around than the number of 250+ pound women out there. I see this as a real practical problem. Are many of these women doomed to be single?

My statements about how having a fat wife could impede an FA's career have been blown way out of proportion here. I have even been accused of complaining about my lot in life as an FA. What I said was that it appears there is a glass ceiling since an FA doesn't ever appear to be at the highest
level of career success. That doesn't mean all is lost and the FA must forgo a successful career in order to pursue his FA orientation. For myself, I have a very successful career, and as SL pointed out it is based on my technical expertise and not on image. But there are other jobs, particularly in upper management and in entertainment where image is everything. So young guys out there reading this: maybe you will never have a shot at being CEO of a Fortune 500 company or President if you are married to a 400 pound woman, but you can achieve career success nonetheless. Just don't expect there to be no bumps in the road.

Regarding BB's question: "Grey, you tell us you've accomplished your goal in marrying a BBW, but you left out the part where she's unhappy with her weight and struggles to lose it. I don't want to be rude in asking, but was that also part of The Dream? Regarding the rest of your comments, many of them seem kind of disingenuous. I don't think anything any "bitter, middle-aged fat women" have said here has been any more frightening to young FAs than what some of the other FAs have said about their living an incomplete life."

BB this is part of the difficulties for FAs and BBWs in the real world. I also didn't include the part about how her weight (close to 300 pounds) contributed to PCOS and resulting fertility problems, early-stage type-2 diabetes and chronic back pain (she used to work full time as a hairstylist and was on her feet all day - her high weight was surely a major factor in the back pain). And this all at the tender age of 25. So my wife goes in to the endocrinologist and he tells her things about how she doesn't care about how her weight is destroying her health and she panics and decides she has to lose weight. Guess what, she loses weight and the diabetes problem goes away the back pain is diminished and she feels better about herself in general. I am the only loser in this situation.

It is actually disingenuous for people like you to paint the picture as simplistically as you do. There are real practical issues that FAs and BBWs need to deal with in life. Denying them won't make them go away. And make no mistake, I am anything but disingenuous in my participation in this thread. Question my opinions all you want, but my intentions here are sincere.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

I'm not surprised that the size acceptance movement is stalling. I've been with the movmement for 5 years. And what I see is an overabundance of cliquish behavior and unnecessary divisiveness. For the movement to succeed, people are going to have to be more mutually supportive. 



grey1969 said:


> As far as the attitude about weight of oneself or one's spouse affecting job prospects, well it is certainly not going to be expressed overtly, but it will be there under the surface just like there is still covert discrimination against women and visible minorities in the workplace.
> 
> Actually the ladies do have a choice. There are many strategies that one could employ to lose weight. My wife has done it very successfully much to my chagrin.
> 
> And this tired old saying the women here keep bringing up about about men just 'growing some balls' or 'be a man' is really not accomplishing anything. As Conrad so eloquently stated in this very thread, there should be a mutual support of FAs and BBWs to help one another with their self-acceptance. it seems the position of the majority of people here is that you have no tolerance for someone that is unsure of themselves as an FA. For me it really doesn't matter. I have already accomplished my goal of marrying a BBW. I thought I might come here to share some of my thoughts on this important issue. The ones I worry about are the young guys that come here looking for some kind of guidance and support and instead they encounter a bunch of bitter middle-aged fat women with no patience for their fears and concerns over their sexual preference and how they might incorporate it into their lives. So it seems they either claim all is well and they have no issues with their FA orientation or they probably just slink away feeling the way Lilly did after her first experience at a NAAFA meeting where she was looked down on for not having totally come to terms with herself as a fat person. It is becoming ever clearer to me why the size acceptance movement has stalled out.


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## Jane (May 20, 2006)

That was a very good response, Grey.

I think often what we say is blown out of proportion, but sometimes we're saying what we really mean kinda Freudian or some crap like that. LOL


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

I like middle aged fat women, too. But the gentleman is correct in observing that bitter, middle aged bbws at size events do tend to scare off newer members. I've heard too many tales of that happening. I know some people on this board feel offended, but the gentleman speaks the truth.



NFA said:


> I've always been rather fond of bitter, middle aged fat women myself.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 20, 2006)

You speak the truth. And I thank you for doing so.



grey1969 said:


> I agree that no fat person should accept having a spouse who is ashamed of them. On the other hand there is a difference between not being totally comfortable and being ashamed. Simply put, there are too few FAs who are totally comfortable with their preference. Hell for that matter even if you put together all the FAs that were 'out of the closet' there probably are many fewer to go around than the number of 250+ pound women out there. I see this as a real practical problem. Are many of these women doomed to be single?
> 
> My statements about how having a fat wife could impede an FA's career have been blown way out of proportion here. I have even been accused of complaining about my lot in life as an FA. What I said was that it appears there is a glass ceiling since an FA doesn't ever appear to be at the highest
> level of career success. That doesn't mean all is lost and the FA must forgo a successful career in order to pursue his FA orientation. For myself, I have a very successful career, and as SL pointed out it is based on my technical expertise and not on image. But there are other jobs, particularly in upper management and in entertainment where image is everything. So young guys out there reading this: maybe you will never have a shot at being CEO of a Fortune 500 company or President if you are married to a 400 pound woman, but you can achieve career success nonetheless. Just don't expect there to be no bumps in the road.
> ...


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## rainyday (May 20, 2006)

I'm curious what constitutes bitter behavior. Enlighten me?


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## NancyGirl74 (May 20, 2006)

I'm a late comer to this thread and I haven't read everyone's posts yet but I wanted to add my two cents. So, here goes:

I think I understand the closeted issue because I was living in my own closet for a long time. I didn't know what fat acceptance was until recently so for nearly 30 years I thought all people thought fat was ugly. Perhaps I was sheltered. Perhaps I allowed myself to be. Nevertheless, I was the fat girl who wore blinders about her weight. I didn't talk about my weight. I never told my weight to anyone. Frankly, I never even owned a scale just so I wouldn't be tempted to look. It was like sticking my head in the sand. I simply did not want to acknowlegde my fat. I know this is stupid because I couldn't exactly hide it...but I sure as hell tried. Baggy clothes and never going out socially allowed me to stay closeted for a long time. 

I imagine this is not really the same as being a closeted FA. However, I think remembering how I felt when I tried to hide myself from society allows me to extend some sympathy to those FAs who struggle with who they are. 

That being said...I don't encourage you/FAs to stay closeted. Be proud of who you are. Besides, it's boring in that stupid closet anyway.


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## Judge_Dre (May 20, 2006)

I never "came out of the closet" because I was never really in it to begin with. My family and friends knew I liked big girls just by noticing all the women I surrounded myself with. It's not like us FA's are victims of attack like homosexuals are. That's why I never liked the term "in the closet" in reference to fat admirers. It seems to imply an ignorance of the severity of homphobia.


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## Mini (May 20, 2006)

I'm with Dre. I've never been outed because I was never in the closet in the first place. 

I've never made like I've been attracted to something I'm not, nor have I ever dated girls who'd throw my preferences into doubt. The evidence is out in the open; should a dude who liked thin girls have to say, y'know, I really like me some skeleton?

I suppose it might be more an issue (read: of any consequence at all) if I had a group of peers with whom I associated, but I don't. One of the benefits of having no friends is that you never need to explain yourself to anyone.


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## MisticalMisty (May 20, 2006)

Ok..this whole herding business cracks me up..if you don't fit into one herd..find another one. Hell, dimensions is a herd on it's own.


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## Mini (May 20, 2006)

rainyday said:


> I'm curious what constitutes bitter behavior. Enlighten me?



"Would you like to go out some time?"

"No thanks."

"YOU BITTER COW!"


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## grey1969 (May 20, 2006)

Mini said:


> I suppose it might be more an issue (read: of any consequence at all) if I had a group of peers with whom I associated, but I don't. One of the benefits of having no friends is that you never need to explain yourself to anyone.


 
Yes I agree. Friends are highly overrated anyway  

And Jane, thanks for saying my post was a good response.

Rainy, do we really need to get into a discussion over what constitutes bitterness'?. I would say it is a product of built up emotional despair due to improper treatment or unfairness. It would manifest itself in lashing out at someone who is perceived as being associated with the source of the original shabby treatment. Personally, I believe all the people who frequent Dimensions have a right to be bitter at the way we have been marginalized by society. However, we should not take it out on each other and too often that is what is happening.


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## HassanChop (May 21, 2006)

I think the bottom line here is that fat is considered unhealthy, ugly and something that is to be somehow avoided at all costs. Whether it's through diet, exercise, surgery, or just avoiding fat people entirely it really doesn't matter. I understand living in southern california for 23 years also gives me a little different perspective than say, maybe the mid-west or other parts of the country. But at least here, there is a significant fat prejudice. It's horrible, but fat men and women will be snickered at and mocked out in public. You will lose at least a few of your friends when they see you with the larger ladies. Because fat is so horrible, there must be something wrong with you for being attracted to it. That's life outside of Dimensions, and really that's OK. The friends you have out on the periphery of your social circle that you may lose you can really do without anyway, it's just the occasional close friend that my get weird over your preferences is kind of hard to lose. People don't like to be judged harshly by others, and that's what happens occasionally when you openly appreciate the lushly rubenesque ladies. Just my humble opinion, others may vary.


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## ripley (May 21, 2006)

rainyday said:


> I'm curious what constitutes bitter behavior. Enlighten me?




Watch *me*. Pay attention, rainy! Sheesh!


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## rainyday (May 21, 2006)

LOL Mini. The occasional truism of that made me laugh! And well-said, HassanChop.



grey1969 said:


> Rainy, do we really need to get into a discussion over what constitutes bitterness'?. I would say it is a product of built up emotional despair due to improper treatment or unfairness. It would manifest itself in lashing out at someone who is perceived as being associated with the source of the original shabby treatment. Personally, I believe all the people who frequent Dimensions have a right to be bitter at the way we have been marginalized by society. However, we should not take it out on each other and too often that is what is happening.



Yes, I do think it's relevant to define it because the sexes communicate differently. Often there's a contrast between what men and women paint as bitter. At times men see anger in women--or even just strong opinion--and label it bitterness. Some anger is righteous though. And even healthy.

I think the ones who can be of most help to men fearful of living their preference are other men. I'm always glad when a young guy posts asking about that and other men post in reply. Id also be fine with men having their own board if it would better encourage support in this area.

As far as discrimination in the business world, yes, it exists. I work in an extremely competitive industry and who you have hanging on your arm *is* something that's discussed. One owner of a company I used to work for bragged about how his wife had to fly to Paris to buy couture because her tiny size made finding clothes in NY boutiques impossible. He clearly thought this was a plus. This is an imperfect world; there may be some cost in being true to yourself.

At the very highest levels something else is also valued in certain positions though: Risk-taking individuality. Read the bios given in cover stories of CEOs in business magazines and it's clear the cult of the maverick is huge. Quirks are celebrated. They're also not apologized for. Imagine what it would be like to someday watch a 60 Minutes segment about a lauded new business star and hear he just happens to always have a fat woman on his arm. Just one of his quirks. It will never happen though without some collective bravery.


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## rainyday (May 21, 2006)

ripley said:


> Watch *me*. Pay attention, rainy! Sheesh!



I feel so spied on! Quit looking at me while I write my posts!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 21, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Is the opinion of an employer null, void and inconsequential (and don't think it doesn't happen - like I said, show me any FAs who have risen to the top levels of career success)? We are talking about the real world here, not the world we would like it to be.



John Edwards (married to a BBW)

Bill Clinton (nailed a BBW)


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## Jane (May 21, 2006)

Well, it's also true that many in corporate world marry for reasons other than love or preference. However, that's not something I would want to do either.


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## BeaBea (May 21, 2006)

Interesting thread. 
I'd just like to repeat the thought though that Fat people are automatically 'outed' purely by being in view. FA's who can be open do us all a service if they can bring themselves to speak loud and proud about their preferences.



HappyFatChick said:


> Jes- just think, if you joined US, together we'd be JesUS
> Love and hugs,
> The Christians




Oh and HappyFatChick... I'm a Christian and you dont speak for me. Please dont assume you can appoint yourself into the role of spokesperson for me or for the wider Christian community. If we have a vote and you're chosen we'll let you know. Thanks. 

Tracey

www.beabea.co.uk


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## grey1969 (May 21, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> John Edwards (married to a BBW)
> 
> Bill Clinton (nailed a BBW)



Good job. I was wondering if anyone was going to mention Edwards. Maybe you should also have mentioned that she went on the record as saying she realized her weight was 'unhealthy' and she was working on reducing it. Obviously, a very reluctant BBW. And I never heard Johnny admit that he preferred his wife's voluptuous body to the skinny type. Also, they have been married for many years, so I wonder how heavy she was when they first got together. 

And Clinton's affair with Monica was supposed to be a secret so perhaps he is just one of those dastardly closet FAs. Seems nothing to get too excited about although it has certainly given me some pause for thought.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 21, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Good job. I was wondering if anyone was going to mention Edwards. Maybe you should also have mentioned that she went on the record as saying she realized her weight was 'unhealthy' and she was working on reducing it. Obviously, a very reluctant BBW. And I never heard Johnny admit that he preferred his wife's voluptuous body to the skinny type. Also, they have been married for many years, so I wonder how heavy she was when they first got together.
> 
> And Clinton's affair with Monica was supposed to be a secret so perhaps he is just one of those dastardly closet FAs. Seems nothing to get too excited about although it has certainly given me some pause for thought.



I was going to say that if John Edwards could see the future surely he would have seen that his wife would become a bbw...but I forgot that he only talks to dead people. Maybe one of them should have filled him in. 

As for Billy-boy...I think she could have been Fefe the Bearded Woman and he would have nailed her anyway.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 21, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Good job. I was wondering if anyone was going to mention Edwards. Maybe you should also have mentioned that she went on the record as saying she realized her weight was 'unhealthy' and she was working on reducing it. Obviously, a very reluctant BBW. And I never heard Johnny admit that he preferred his wife's voluptuous body to the skinny type. Also, they have been married for many years, so I wonder how heavy she was when they first got together.
> 
> And Clinton's affair with Monica was supposed to be a secret so perhaps he is just one of those dastardly closet FAs. Seems nothing to get too excited about although it has certainly given me some pause for thought.



I watch people's body language, and I've got to say, Edwards seems pretty into his wife. I think it's a major reason he didn't get the nomination in a puritannical country.


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## grey1969 (May 21, 2006)

rainyday said:


> LOL Mini. The occasional truism of that made me laugh! And well-said, HassanChop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Careful Rainy, now it is you who is generalizing based on gender.  I think that it is possible for there to be all kinds of definitions for a concept such a 'bitterness' from people of both genders. Well I stated what it means to me and how it relates to those of us here. WHat about you?

You are clearly right on target with your assessment of the issues regarding discrimination in the business world and the prospects for open FAs. One thing I would add: while risk-taking and individual quirks are celebrated, it probably depends on what it is you are talking about. Some things would be considered just too 'weird'. So as you say, some 'collective bravery' must likely occur before any more prominent FAs could surface. In other words, those of us at the grass-roots level need to figure out how to step out of the shadows and make our collective presence felt. And it has to be something more than just agreeing to go on some tabloid talk show to discuss it. 

I had originally been advocating for a seperate men's discussion board but was convinced by Lilly that maybe this idea was doomed to fail. Often men require a woman to prod them into opening up about their feelings. The key then is to have a majority of female participants, who will not condemn said man when he says things that upset her or poo-poo the issues that FAs perceive that they need to work through. This came up on the Admirer Activism thread I believe, where you challenged my use of the word 'debate' in reference to discussions between men and women. SO I understand what someone like BB is saying when she sees it as an insult that FAs would question their ability to deal with their attraction to BBWs in front of the BBWs. But as I said before, sometimes it is difficult to get one's opinions and feelings across without insulting someone as 'collateral damage'. The point is that we are not intentionally, maliciously insulting the BBWs. And forcing us to keep our feelings bottled up is an insult to us, especially since Dimensions is supposed to be for us too. Anyway, maybe Lilly is wrong. There seems to be alot of guys here who are pretty in touch with our feelings. We may have some interesting and productive discussions about them if given our own forum to do so.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 21, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I watch people's body language, and I've got to say, Edwards seems pretty into his wife. I think it's a major reason he didn't get the nomination in a puritannical country.



LMAO I was totally thinking of the wrong John Edward(s)!

ROFLMAO

:doh: What a dork! 

I'm crying laughing at myself!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 21, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> LMAO I was totally thinking of the wrong John Edward(s)!
> 
> ROFLMAO
> 
> ...



I thought you were being a cut-up, as is your way.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 21, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I thought you were being a cut-up, as is your way.



I was _trying_ to be humorous...but still...

When I read your post I was thinking, "Sure he's in the media but I don't think he's all that influential. Who is gonna care that John Edward's wife is fat?" 

I'm still laughing! This goes down in the books as one of the dumbest things I've ever said outloud.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 21, 2006)

That's pretty damned funny, actually!  Oh well.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 21, 2006)

rainyday said:


> ...This is an imperfect world; there may be some cost in being true to yourself.
> 
> At the very highest levels something else is also valued in certain positions though: Risk-taking individuality. Read the bios given in cover stories of CEOs in business magazines and it's clear the cult of the maverick is huge. Quirks are celebrated. They're also not apologized for. Imagine what it would be like to someday watch a 60 Minutes segment about a lauded new business star and hear he just happens to always have a fat woman on his arm. Just one of his quirks. It will never happen though without some collective bravery.


EXCELLENT points, Rainyday.


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## LillyBBBW (May 21, 2006)

Bite your tongue! I'm never wrong, dammit all to hell!!  

I think for the most part people are capable of voicing an opinion in a civil manner. Not everyone is going to agree with you but there's alway that one person whose manner is to come out swinging that can muddy the waters a bit. You can't judge a whole community because of a scuffle in the parking lot with the town bully. Chances are we've all scuffled with this person at some time or other.




grey1969 said:


> Careful Rainy, now it is you who is generalizing based on gender.  I think that it is possible for there to be all kinds of definitions for a concept such a 'bitterness' from people of both genders. Well I stated what it means to me and how it relates to those of us here. WHat about you?
> 
> You are clearly right on target with your assessment of the issues regarding discrimination in the business world and the prospects for open FAs. One thing I would add: while risk-taking and individual quirks are celebrated, it probably depends on what it is you are talking about. Some things would be considered just too 'weird'. So as you say, some 'collective bravery' must likely occur before any more prominent FAs could surface. In other words, those of us at the grass-roots level need to figure out how to step out of the shadows and make our collective presence felt. And it has to be something more than just agreeing to go on some tabloid talk show to discuss it.
> 
> I had originally been advocating for a seperate men's discussion board but was convinced by Lilly that maybe this idea was doomed to fail. Often men require a woman to prod them into opening up about their feelings. The key then is to have a majority of female participants, who will not condemn said man when he says things that upset her or poo-poo the issues that FAs perceive that they need to work through. This came up on the Admirer Activism thread I believe, where you challenged my use of the word 'debate' in reference to discussions between men and women. SO I understand what someone like BB is saying when she sees it as an insult that FAs would question their ability to deal with their attraction to BBWs in front of the BBWs. But as I said before, sometimes it is difficult to get one's opinions and feelings across without insulting someone as 'collateral damage'. The point is that we are not intentionally, maliciously insulting the BBWs. And forcing us to keep our feelings bottled up is an insult to us, especially since Dimensions is supposed to be for us too. Anyway, maybe Lilly is wrong. There seems to be alot of guys here who are pretty in touch with our feelings. We may have some interesting and productive discussions about them if given our own forum to do so.


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## grey1969 (May 21, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> You are clearly right on target with your assessment of the issues regarding discrimination in the business world and the prospects for open FAs. One thing I would add: while risk-taking and individual quirks are celebrated, it probably depends on what it is you are talking about. Some things would be considered just too 'weird'. So as you say, some 'collective bravery' must likely occur before any more prominent FAs could surface. In other words, those of us at the grass-roots level need to figure out how to step out of the shadows and make our collective presence felt. And it has to be something more than just agreeing to go on some tabloid talk show to discuss it.
> 
> .



I missed the 15 min window to add this. I didn't intend to diminish the effort that Conrad and other FAs have made by going on TV to discuss their FA preference. Seeing these shows (I believe the first time was back in 1988 when I was only 19 yr old) was very beneficial for me in my process of coming to terms with myself. But it seems there is much more work to be done to achieve acceptance of our orientation by mainstream society.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 21, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> I understand what someone like BB is saying when she sees it as an insult that FAs would question their ability to deal with their attraction to BBWs in front of the BBWs. But as I said before, sometimes it is difficult to get one's opinions and feelings across without insulting someone as 'collateral damage'. The point is that we are not intentionally, maliciously insulting the BBWs. And forcing us to keep our feelings bottled up is an insult to us, especially since Dimensions is supposed to be for us too.


I've not seen anyone suggest FAs keep their feelings bottled up, Grey. In fact, doing so might be the biggest cause of problems for both the men and the women. And if not here at Dimensions, where? All I ask is that we treat one another with respect while we're working these things out.

If ever there was a blanket solution for a myriad of social woes, it's _respect_.


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## NFA (May 21, 2006)

Grey, you may be surprised to know that most people aren't the type to publicly discuss their wives bodies while running for national office. Not really an appropriate point of discussion. Indeed, very few people ever brought up her weight at all, and John Edwards himself showed no hesitation to display his love and affection for his wife. Doesn't matter what he prefered. What matters, is that it didn't really matter. Yes, someone brought up the issue and you obviously obsessively tracked down Elizabeth's predictable apology for having an unfashionable body. But it hardly proves the tough road FA's have to endure. It just continues to show that fat people are subjected to abuse that their significant others are virtually entirely immune to. Suggesting otherwise shows a profound lack of respect for reality.


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## grey1969 (May 21, 2006)

NFA said:


> Grey, you may be surprised to know that most people aren't the type to publicly discuss their wives bodies while running for national office. Not really an appropriate point of discussion. Indeed, very few people ever brought up her weight at all, and John Edwards himself showed no hesitation to display his love and affection for his wife. Doesn't matter what he prefered. What matters, is that it didn't really matter. Yes, someone brought up the issue and you obviously obsessively tracked down Elizabeth's predictable apology for having an unfashionable body. But it hardly proves the tough road FA's have to endure. It just continues to show that fat people are subjected to abuse that their significant others are virtually entirely immune to. Suggesting otherwise shows a profound lack of respect for reality.



SL brought up Edwards in response to my challenge to name a single FA who has risen to the top levels of career success. The fact that Edwards is married to a fat woman and willing to show her affection in public is not evidence that he is an FA. Like I said earlier, they have been married for many years, and I wonder how big she was when they first got together. 

As for me having "obviously obsessively tracked down Elizabeth's predictable apology for having an unfashionable body". This is really a pathetic attempt at character assassination, which seems to be your standard MO. I did not track down anything. I simply recalled what I had seen her say in a TV interview (I vaguely recall it was with Barbara Walters but could be wrong) during the presidential campaign. Believe me, I was as disappointed to hear her say that as you were. See the difference between me and you is that I am willing to discuss issues with an open mind and without turning everything into an inquisition on the character of the other person that I may not agree with.


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## rainyday (May 21, 2006)

Thanks, BB. 



grey1969 said:


> Well I stated what it means to me and how it relates to those of us here. WHat about you?


Websters works for me:
_2. Causing or showing pain, sorrow, etc.; 3. Sharp and disagreeable, harsh [a bitter wind]; 4. resentful, cynical. 
Especially the first one, since bitterness is usually the product of pain. I wouldn't limit it to just the manifestation you used in your definition though.




I had originally been advocating for a seperate men's discussion board but was convinced by Lilly that maybe this idea was doomed to fail. Often men require a woman to prod them into opening up about their feelings. The key then is to have a majority of female participants, who will not condemn said man when he says things that upset her or poo-poo the issues that FAs perceive that they need to work through. This came up on the Admirer Activism thread I believe, where you challenged my use of the word 'debate' in reference to discussions between men and women.

Click to expand...

I'd still challenge the word "debate" and liked your amendment in that thread to "discussion" much better. Sometimes though discussion *is* going to involve a woman letting men know what what "upsets her" (you really meant "things she doesn't agree with" not the perjorative "upset her," right?). As I've said before, "there, there, I understand" doesn't promote much growth. But sure, delivery on both sides can be finessed._


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## moonvine (May 21, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> That's why when I see evidence this _isn't_ being done, it makes me more inclined to give that company my business. Seeing heavy or average looking people in print and TV ads makes me wanna throw money at the advertiser. And an actor or model in a wheelchair, when the wheelchair isn't a part of the ad? Damn near gives me a commerce hard-on.
> 
> Money talks, and this is how to make it speak for _our_ side.



Someone used the Padded Lillies in a print ad a couple years ago - it was awesome!


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## moonvine (May 21, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> I agree that no fat person should accept having a spouse who is ashamed of them. On the other hand there is a difference between not being totally comfortable and being ashamed. Simply put, there are too few FAs who are totally comfortable with their preference. Hell for that matter even if you put together all the FAs that were 'out of the closet' there probably are many fewer to go around than the number of 250+ pound women out there. I see this as a real practical problem. Are many of these women doomed to be single?



There are not enough FAs in OR out of the closet for all the available fat women. I think "doomed to be single" is a bit strong. I'm almost 40 and single and certainly don't feel doomed. I do think I would have been married long ago had I been thin, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, so to speak.


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## moonvine (May 21, 2006)

Mini said:


> "Would you like to go out some time?"
> 
> "No thanks."
> 
> "YOU BITTER COW!"



I think it is more like 

"Wanna go back to my room for some random casual meaningless sex?"

"Get away from me you cretin!"

"YOU BITTER COW!" (in real life they usually throw in "ugly")


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## moonvine (May 21, 2006)

HassanChop said:


> I think the bottom line here is that fat is considered unhealthy, ugly and something that is to be somehow avoided at all costs. Whether it's through diet, exercise, surgery, or just avoiding fat people entirely it really doesn't matter. I understand living in southern california for 23 years also gives me a little different perspective than say, maybe the mid-west or other parts of the country. But at least here, there is a significant fat prejudice. It's horrible, but fat men and women will be snickered at and mocked out in public. You will lose at least a few of your friends when they see you with the larger ladies. Because fat is so horrible, there must be something wrong with you for being attracted to it. That's life outside of Dimensions, and really that's OK. The friends you have out on the periphery of your social circle that you may lose you can really do without anyway, it's just the occasional close friend that my get weird over your preferences is kind of hard to lose. People don't like to be judged harshly by others, and that's what happens occasionally when you openly appreciate the lushly rubenesque ladies. Just my humble opinion, others may vary.



This really sounds like no kind of friend at all to me. It is surely one I would be happy to be rid of.


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## EtobicokeFA (May 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> There are not enough FAs in OR out of the closet for all the available fat women. I think "doomed to be single" is a bit strong. I'm almost 40 and single and certainly don't feel doomed. I do think I would have been married long ago had I been thin, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, so to speak.



I though it would be very hard to do a head count on how many FAs out there are still in the closet, when that would include ones that haven't realized or accepted it yet!


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## grey1969 (May 22, 2006)

rainyday said:


> Thanks, BB.
> 
> 
> Websters works for me:
> ...


_


No arguments here. You are a wise and beautiful (inside and out) person. 

People often get upset by hearing things they don't agree with. This can apply to both men and women. I don't wish to make women out to be irrational and overemotional. It is something that can occur with both genders, and I myself often get way too emotional. That is why I have been counseled to avoid responding too quickly after reading a reply to one of my posts that has upset me.

Another manifestation of bitterness, which is the most unfortunate of all, is to shut oneself off in an attempt to avoid further pain. It seems those who congregate on the Dimensions boards are not doing so, and this is an important part of many people's lives. I understand the point that people are making about showing respect when joining in on the discourse here. However, part of respect is being willing to tell the truth as I see it, even though it may be often difficult for people to hear. This speaks to Moonvines post:

"There are not enough FAs in OR out of the closet for all the available fat women. *I think "doomed to be single" is a bit strong*. I'm almost 40 and single and certainly don't feel doomed. I do think I would have been married long ago had I been thin, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, so to speak."

I fully realize the seriousness of such a statement as "doomed to be single" in reference to the 'shortage of FAs'. It does not make me feel at all good to be bringing such thoughts forward. It makes me think maybe I should just forget the whole scene. Why cause myself the sadness that comes with dealing with such issues? But instead I think about if there is anything I could do to be of any benefit to the FA/BBW community. I hope that sharing my thoughts on these boards may benefit some folks out there, particularly the lurkers of which we know there are many. This is not to say I don't also benefit from participating here. Interactions with the many decent and intelligent members here would benefit anyone, and I certainly have more growing to do as a person._


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## abluesman (May 22, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Is the opinion of an employer null, void and inconsequential (and don't think it doesn't happen - like I said, show me any FAs who have risen to the top levels of career success)? We are talking about the real world here, not the world we would like it to be.




I haven't found this to be true at all, in my experience. In my younger days, as a working musician, I was proud to have a BBW on my arm. It didn't take away from my talent, and that was what got me hired to do the session work. Since that time I've held quite a number of different positions in the corporate world. Everything from "middle management" to my current executive position. 

Not once did I feel my BBW wife held me back. We always attended company gatherings together. If my employers had a problem with her size, they never let it be known. (If they had, I would have *immediately* started looking for another job. I'm not going to be associated with a company that fosters that type of prejudice).

I'm the exec now. The owners of the company have met Christy on several occasions. And, just like me, they *LOVE* her. If they didn't, that would be okay too. But if I felt it was causing problems for me at work, I'd be out of here, pronto!!

And what about my lovely wife? She's very successful. She's recognized in this part of the country as being one of the best at what she does and has not been a victim of fat prejudice. 

So you see, I don't agree at all. I know this problem exists "in the real world", but I think what you should ask yourself is "do I really need to be working for a company like that"?


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

Ah, ablues....as usual, right to the heart of the matter....

If one is looking for an excuse on the failure to be at the top of the coporate ladder, isn't a fat wife a handy scapegoat?


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## Jes (May 22, 2006)

Jane said:


> Ah, ablues....as usual, right to the heart of the matter....
> 
> If one is looking for an excuse on the failure to be at the top of the coporate ladder, isn't a fat wife a handy scapegoat?


I think fat is a handy scapegoat for a lot of things. Those relationships that peter out when one partner either gets fat (or is fat from the get-go)? That just seems shady to me. I realize that chemistry and atrraction are important pieces of the puzzle and it's only fair to want to be attracted to your partner, but there's more going on when you wake up one day and say: you're way too fat and I want out.


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## moonvine (May 22, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I though it would be very hard to do a head count on how many FAs out there are still in the closet, when that would include ones that haven't realized or accepted it yet!



Well, an actual head count is not necessary for me to be satisfied with my statement. I can do simple, non scientific tests like posting a personal ad with no mention of me being fat and no picture, when I will get dozens of responses per day, or one that is upfront about me being fat and includes a picture, and get perhaps one response per month. This is not scientific evidence, but is good enough for me.


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## grey1969 (May 22, 2006)

abluesman said:


> I haven't found this to be true at all, in my experience. In my younger days, as a working musician, I was proud to have a BBW on my arm. It didn't take away from my talent, and that was what got me hired to do the session work. Since that time I've held quite a number of different positions in the corporate world. Everything from "middle management" to my current executive position.
> 
> Not once did I feel my BBW wife held me back. We always attended company gatherings together. If my employers had a problem with her size, they never let it be known. (If they had, I would have *immediately* started looking for another job. I'm not going to be associated with a company that fosters that type of prejudice).
> 
> ...



One question would be how big is your wife? A 200 pound BBW will slip in under the radar but EVERYONE is going to take notice and generally in a disapproving way if she is 400+ pounds. 

And as far as asking oneself "do I really need to be working for a company like that", they are all companies like that. Corporate America is by and large controlled by people with a very certain type of background (i.e. Ivy League men who belong to a certain type of old boy's club mentality) in which fat people have no place. I would be interested in knowing what all these wonderful accepting companies are that you have worked for over the years.


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## moonvine (May 22, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> One question would be how big is your wife? A 200 pound BBW will slip in under the radar but EVERYONE is going to take notice and generally in a disapproving way if she is 400+ pounds.
> 
> And as far as asking oneself "do I really need to be working for a company like that", they are all companies like that. Corporate America is by and large controlled by people with a very certain type of background (i.e. Ivy League men who belong to a certain type of old boy's club mentality) in which fat people have no place. I would be interested in knowing what all these wonderful accepting companies are that you have worked for over the years.




I have to say that my company does not seem to have problems with fat people. The director of the call center where I work is a fat woman. There are plenty of thin and fat men and women who work under her, somewhere around 700 of them. She reports to a vice president.


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## moonvine (May 22, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> I fully realize the seriousness of such a statement as "doomed to be single" in reference to the 'shortage of FAs'. It does not make me feel at all good to be bringing such thoughts forward. It makes me think maybe I should just forget the whole scene. Why cause myself the sadness that comes with dealing with such issues?




I think "doomed" is a pretty ridiculous word to use in reference to being single, whether the single person is fat or thin. I actually rather like being single. Maybe if I had cancer or AIDS, I'd be "doomed" (but then again, perhaps not, since medical advances are being made). If I jumped off a cliff, THEN I'd be doomed. Singlehood isn't a terminal condition.


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## grey1969 (May 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think "doomed" is a pretty ridiculous word to use in reference to being single, whether the single person is fat or thin. I actually rather like being single. Maybe if I had cancer or AIDS, I'd be "doomed" (but then again, perhaps not, since medical advances are being made). If I jumped off a cliff, THEN I'd be doomed. Singlehood isn't a terminal condition.




Okay. Perhaps 'destined' would be a better choice of word in this case. The point is that there are many BBWs who would very much like to find a good husband and in most cases have children. This is the same desire that most everyone (men and women) has. Only a fool would suggest that one can not have a fulfilling life despite remaining single. However, for most of us, there will always feel like there is something missing under those circumstances. Yes it is old-fashioned, but that is still how the large majority of people feel.

Regarding your other point: I overstated when I said there is no place for fat people in Corporate America. However, you sort of supported my point by describing your position. You are working in a call center where your interaction with the public is over the phone and your size is therefore irrelevant. I will agree that it is possible for fat people to achieve success in our society, but they are at a significant disadvantage. Then add the fact that you are a woman and there is a double whammy. It is similar to the continuing issue of discrimination against visible minorites and physically handicapped people and resulting Affirmative Action initiatives. Unfortunately, fat people are not lucky enough to be the beneficiaries of a similar program. 

This whole issue of whether having a fat wife could stunt an FA's career success is rather nebulous and much harder to define. Also, FAs including myself, tend to gravitate toward technical professions where our expertise rather than 'image' are more of a determining factor in our success. I suppose this is a fortunate coincidence.


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## moonvine (May 22, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Okay. Perhaps 'destined' would be a better choice of word in this case. The point is that there are many BBWs who would very much like to find a good husband and in most cases have children. This is the same desire that most everyone (men and women) has. Only a fool would suggest that one can not have a fulfilling life despite remaining single. However, for most of us, there will always feel like there is something missing under those circumstances. Yes it is old-fashioned, but that is still how the large majority of people feel.
> 
> Regarding your other point: I overstated when I said there is no place for fat people in Corporate America. However, you sort of supported my point by describing your position. You are working in a call center where your interaction with the public is over the phone and your size is therefore irrelevant. I will agree that it is possible for fat people to achieve success in our society, but they are at a significant disadvantage. Then add the fact that you are a woman and there is a double whammy. It is similar to the continuing issue of discrimination against visible minorites and physically handicapped people and resulting Affirmative Action initiatives. Unfortunately, fat people are not lucky enough to be the beneficiaries of a similar program.
> 
> This whole issue of whether having a fat wife could stunt an FA's career success is rather nebulous and much harder to define. Also, FAs including myself, tend to gravitate toward technical professions where our expertise rather than 'image' are more of a determining factor in our success. I suppose this is a fortunate coincidence.



Well, there are thin women who would like husbands and children and do not have any either, though I would certainly agree one's chances of finding a suitable potential partner are better if one is thin. But fat women get married all the time, so I would say that it is a false statement to say that fat women are destined to be single. More likely yes, destined no.

And yes, I work in a call center. I am a team lead, though, so I don't actually talk on the phone much (thank God, I hate phones). I have 14 people reporting to me. The director of the center certainly talks on the phone, but no more than any other executive. She spends a lot of time meeting with potential clients in the US and abroad and meeting with current clients as well, so she certainly gets her share of "face time."


----------



## Donna (May 22, 2006)

This thread has been on my mind since it appeared on Friday and I have read it and followed the twists and turns. Ive taken it to heart, every last word of it, but especially the ascertain that one cannot get ahead in the business world because they have a fat wife. It hit a raw nerve with me for a couple of reasons.

One because I am one of those middle aged fat women Grey referred to. I am 40 years old, with a college degree and have worked since college in the business world. The Chairman of the Board for Certegy, Inc. (a division of Equifax) is married to a woman who is at least my size or larger. How do I know this? I met her in the hallway once as they were touring the St. Petersburg office and she stopped to compliment me on the way I was dressed. I encountered many fat women and men working for Certegy/Equifax and Time Warner. I cant say the same for GE, however I was a contract worker and only spoke on the phone to folks from corporateI have no idea if the lovely folks I interacted with were big or small.

The second reason this stuck with me and nagged at my brain is because I am married to an ambitious businessman. My husband owns his own company, with many clients. The last thing I would want to be is a hindrance in any way to the man I adore above all others and our growing business. I showed him this thread and asked his opinion. He laughed at the notion that a businessman at ANY level would be subject to any discrimination because of who he is married to. In his words, the notion of the thin, blonde trophy wife is an archaic notion used by some men to justify their shallowness & misogyny.

And I dont know if it is topical, but seems to me the owner of Pen Computing happens to be a highly recognized FA. 

Thats my two centsthanks for listening and letting me get this off my chest.


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> This thread has been on my mind since it appeared on Friday and I have read it and followed the twists and turns. Ive taken it to heart, every last word of it, but especially the ascertain that one cannot get ahead in the business world because they have a fat wife. It hit a raw nerve with me for a couple of reasons.
> 
> One because I am one of those middle aged fat women Grey referred to. I am 40 years old, with a college degree and have worked since college in the business world. The Chairman of the Board for Certegy, Inc. (a division of Equifax) is married to a woman who is at least my size or larger. How do I know this? I met her in the hallway once as they were touring the St. Petersburg office and she stopped to compliment me on the way I was dressed. I encountered many fat women and men working for Certegy/Equifax and Time Warner. I cant say the same for GE, however I was a contract worker and only spoke on the phone to folks from corporateI have no idea if the lovely folks I interacted with were big or small.
> 
> ...


Would you give your smart husband a big ol' hug from me?


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## Donna (May 22, 2006)

Jane said:


> Would you give your smart husband a big ol' hug from me?



Coming from you, Ms. Jane, I would be honored to.


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## grey1969 (May 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, there are thin women who would like husbands and children and do not have any either, though I would certainly agree one's chances of finding a suitable potential partner are better if one is thin. But fat women get married all the time, so I would say that it is a false statement to say that fat women are destined to be single. More likely yes, destined no.
> 
> And yes, I work in a call center. I am a team lead, though, so I don't actually talk on the phone much (thank God, I hate phones). I have 14 people reporting to me. The director of the center certainly talks on the phone, but no more than any other executive. She spends a lot of time meeting with potential clients in the US and abroad and meeting with current clients as well, so she certainly gets her share of "face time."



Am I mistaken when I say I have heard of studies being done that show fat people generally earn less (i.e. have less career success)? Again, there will always be exceptions. I am happy to hear that you are doing well in your job, and I wish you continued success.

Please don't twist the meaning of my words. We agree that there are far too few male FAs to pair up with the many fat women that exist in America. I think we would also agree that few non-FAs are likely to marry a fat woman. So if these statements are legitimate, then it follows that many (but not all) of those women will be destined to remain unmarried. 

Donna, thanks for your input. It is enlightening to me and many others here I am sure. Frankly, this is one argument I am more than happy to lose because if I am wrong, then all FAs, including myself, are in a much better position than we may think. Who knows, maybe we really do have nothing to fear but fear itself.


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

How did we get from "What exactly is 'coming out?'" to a lecture on giving up on dreams of having a mate and/or family?


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

One more thing while I'm at it....I have a dear friend who was married to a herion addict for 16 years (yeah, some people take a while to learn).

He told her throughout their time together that she was so fat and ugly that she was just lucky she had him.

Right.....


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## NFA (May 22, 2006)

Presumably there was some concern that BBWs were starting to develop feelings of self-worth that might make them less likely to feel indebted to low-life FA's who look at them with a twisted mix of lust and scorn who feel better forcing their feelings of shame off on the people they blame for those feelings.

You know, generally speaking.


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

NFA said:


> Presumably there was some concern that BBWs were starting to develop feelings of self-worth that might make them less likely to feel indebted to low-life FA's who look at them with a twisted mix of lust and scorn who feel better forcing their feelings of shame off on the people they blame for those feelings.
> 
> You know, generally speaking.


Much as I saw it.


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## ThatFatGirl (May 22, 2006)

NFA said:


> Presumably there was some concern that BBWs were starting to develop feelings of self-worth that might make them less likely to feel indebted to low-life FA's who look at them with a twisted mix of lust and scorn who feel better forcing their feelings of shame off on the people they blame for those feelings.
> 
> You know, generally speaking.



I can't rep you again so soon, but I think you've hit the nail right on the head, NFA.


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

ThatFatGirl said:


> I can't rep you again so soon, but I think you've hit the nail right on the head, NFA.


Me either.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 22, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> My husband owns his own company, with many clients. The last thing I would want to be is a hindrance in any way to the man I adore above all others and our growing business. I showed him this thread and asked his opinion. He laughed at the notion that a businessman at ANY level would be subject to any discrimination because of who he is married to. In his words, the notion of the thin, blonde trophy wife is an archaic notion used by some men to justify their shallowness & misogyny.


Rock on, Mr. Licious.


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## grey1969 (May 22, 2006)

Jane said:


> How did we get from "What exactly is 'coming out?'" to a lecture on giving up on dreams of having a mate and/or family?



It is anything but a lecture. It is stark reality based on statements made by some of your fellow female members here. Let us remember that denial of reality does no good for anyone. And your antagonistic attitude does no good for anyone or anything but your own pious opinion of yourself and maybe to gain you a few more rep points. Shoot the messenger if you must, but it will not change the truth.

As for you Mr. NFA. Well you really do not warrant any kind of response at all. But I must say you seem to be about the most bitter and nasty person in this place.


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## ripley (May 22, 2006)

We're all bitter and nasty here. What do you expect from people who can't get married, have kids, or be a CEO?


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## grey1969 (May 22, 2006)

Jane said:


> One more thing while I'm at it....I have a dear friend who was married to a herion addict for 16 years (yeah, some people take a while to learn).
> 
> He told her throughout their time together that she was so fat and ugly that she was just lucky she had him.
> 
> Right.....



What an inflammatory and immature post. So perhaps you intend to insinuate that I am akin to the heroin addict you referred to in this post. Truly a pathetic attempt at a putdown. I must say my first impression of you was correct after all.


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## Jane (May 22, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> What an inflammatory and immature post. So perhaps you intend to insinuate that I am akin to the heroin addict you referred to in this post. Truly a pathetic attempt at a putdown. I must say my first impression of you was correct after all.


Nothing pathetic about me, and strange you personalized it so...hmmmmm


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 22, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> One question would be how big is your wife? A 200 pound BBW will slip in under the radar but EVERYONE is going to take notice and generally in a disapproving way if she is 400+ pounds.


Awful lot of generalization in that post, Grey. And perhaps a bit of transference. I think Blues is making some heartening and valid points, which should apply to anyone who's not chosen a starched shirt life for themselves.



grey1969 said:


> Let us remember that denial of reality does no good for anyone.


But Grey, isn't failure to recognize choice and free will also a "denial of reality?" It feels as though that's what you're doing in some (though not all) of your posts in this thread. 

If one's employer judges them based on their wife's waist measurement, rather than their job performance, I'd think the wise thing to do is put yourself into a better situation, with real, grown-up employers. If your boss is a dick about this, one must assume they'll go on to be a dick about other things, as well.

To sacrifice happiness in order to bow to a sucky boss? Might as well bow deeply, 'cause you're gonna end up screwed.


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## fatlane (May 22, 2006)

... and to think _I'm_ the one banned around here. No justice, I tell you, no justice...

Money isn't everything. Why people equate it with success is beyond me. Once you're dead, it's worthless. Happiness stays with you and the more you give, the more you have.

BBabe is OBVIOUSLY very successful and attractive. You can see it in her eyes. She will not die unloved, unknown, or unmourned. Just check her cans. She is a splendid one to behold.

And those last two sentences just got me excited and smiling for some reason.

Good gosh, but I love these forums. I'm chatting with supermodels. Yum.


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## Donna (May 22, 2006)

Grey:
Perhaps I am being far too analytical about this, but doesn't the use of the phrase "slip under the radar" seem to IMPLY that you believe there's something not acceptable about being a BBW or SSBBW? Whenever I have seen this particular turn of phrase used in literature, it generally refers to trying to do something against societal norms covertly. I think we've seen some excellent examples in this thread refuting your theory that FAs are subject to a glass ceiling.

I know you have stated that you are opinionated and you don't mind being controversial. That's your right, and more power to ya if that's what gets you through the night. But if you make a controversial statement, is it not reasonable to assume someone, somewhere is going to disagree with you? So NFA disagreed with you? Is that any reason to call him a nasty person? That's bad form sir, and bad debate tactic. Was his post a bit caustic? Yeah, but he's as passionate about this debate as you are and last time I checked, you FAs are supposed to be on the same team.  

On that note, I disagree with your assessment of Ms. Jane's story as well. I read it as she was trying to illustrate the point that some men will mistreat women and take advantage of their low self esteem, something you seem to be reinforcing with some of your statements in this thread. No one is "doomed" to be single. Some women, fat and thin, will never marry either by choice or circumstance. To imply they are doomed is to somehow remove their dignity. Not a very gentlemanly (is that even a word? if not, I just coined it!) thing to do!! It was no more antagonistic than my contribution above, in my opinion.


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## Boteroesque Babe (May 22, 2006)

fatlane said:


> BBabe is OBVIOUSLY very successful and attractive.


Well, y'got the "suc" and "at" right. (Thank ya kindly, Mr. Lane.)


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## fatlane (May 22, 2006)

If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking until you do suck seed. -- Curly Howard.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 23, 2006)

I can say the same about my company. Our Chief Financial Operating Officer is a fat woman. She's about 300 pounds and reports to a vice president also.




moonvine said:


> I have to say that my company does not seem to have problems with fat people. The director of the call center where I work is a fat woman. There are plenty of thin and fat men and women who work under her, somewhere around 700 of them. She reports to a vice president.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 23, 2006)

What I want to know is where are the available fat women in my area? I'm sure there have got to be some pretty young women nearby. Many of the better looking women are already taken. It's discouraging.




moonvine said:


> There are not enough FAs in OR out of the closet for all the available fat women. I think "doomed to be single" is a bit strong. I'm almost 40 and single and certainly don't feel doomed. I do think I would have been married long ago had I been thin, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, so to speak.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 23, 2006)

No one should be discriminated against because of their spouse. But we still live in a country where interracial couples are discriminated against. I don't understand why people need to discriminate. But Corporate America is all about fitting into a clique. It's not egalitarian.




Donnaalicious said:


> This thread has been on my mind since it appeared on Friday and I have read it and followed the twists and turns. Ive taken it to heart, every last word of it, but especially the ascertain that one cannot get ahead in the business world because they have a fat wife. It hit a raw nerve with me for a couple of reasons.
> 
> One because I am one of those middle aged fat women Grey referred to. I am 40 years old, with a college degree and have worked since college in the business world. The Chairman of the Board for Certegy, Inc. (a division of Equifax) is married to a woman who is at least my size or larger. How do I know this? I met her in the hallway once as they were touring the St. Petersburg office and she stopped to compliment me on the way I was dressed. I encountered many fat women and men working for Certegy/Equifax and Time Warner. I cant say the same for GE, however I was a contract worker and only spoke on the phone to folks from corporateI have no idea if the lovely folks I interacted with were big or small.
> 
> ...


----------



## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 23, 2006)

You are taking Grey's comments way too far.



ripley said:


> We're all bitter and nasty here. What do you expect from people who can't get married, have kids, or be a CEO?


----------



## fatlane (May 23, 2006)

Somebody PLEASE post pics of these BBW and SSBBW Captains of Industry! I'm DYIN over here!


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 23, 2006)

I cannot speak for Grey, but we still live an an America in which people are often expected to shed their distinguishing characteristics in order to be considered "acceptable" by the dominant culture. This is something that people have to deal with in corporate America. I don't like the idea that a man could be judged based on whether his employers have a pretty, trophy thin wife. In the eyes of the dominant culture of this country, being a BBW or SSBBW is considered unacceptable. Donna, I know that what Grey said upsets you, but he is being realistic.

As an FA, I am a maverick. I am at peace with that. You would never believe how I can get people to raise their eyebrows when I tell them that I date women who weigh between 200 and 450 pounds. It's different from what the dominant culture expects. I really don't care about what others think, but I know that because I am different, people will react to me a certain way.




Donnaalicious said:


> Grey:
> Perhaps I am being far too analytical about this, but doesn't the use of the phrase "slip under the radar" seem to IMPLY that you believe there's something not acceptable about being a BBW or SSBBW? Whenever I have seen this particular turn of phrase used in literature, it generally refers to trying to do something against societal norms covertly. I think we've seen some excellent examples in this thread refuting your theory that FAs are subject to a glass ceiling.
> 
> I know you have stated that you are opinionated and you don't mind being controversial. That's your right, and more power to ya if that's what gets you through the night. But if you make a controversial statement, is it not reasonable to assume someone, somewhere is going to disagree with you? So NFA disagreed with you? Is that any reason to call him a nasty person? That's bad form sir, and bad debate tactic. Was his post a bit caustic? Yeah, but he's as passionate about this debate as you are and last time I checked, you FAs are supposed to be on the same team.
> ...


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## NFA (May 23, 2006)

Yes, let us all revel in grey's "stark reality". The one where FA's are the true victims of fat discrimination as opposed to, you know, ACTUAL FAT PEOPLE. Where the bitter 400lb'ers are mired in jealousy of the those stealth bombers of the fat community, 200lb women who use their cunning ability to fly beneath the radar of fat discrimination to lead luxurious lives free from insult or abuse given the universal tolerance our society shows them. A world where fat people deserve all the abuse given to them, because they could just lose weight. A whole 1% of them, for a couple of years anyway, maybe. Hardly seems fair to excuse the 99% minority when such an overwhelming majority of maybe 1% for a little while proves grey right.

Yes, it is really reality based commentary like that that should earn the praise of us all. I mean, its not like bigots ever fall back on the claim of "just telling the truth" to justify their sullen and antisocial behavior. Nope. I've never seen that before.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 23, 2006)

Lighten up! There are no "true victims." This ridiculously discriminatory system victimizes all of us. I believe that all FAs should be proud of their significan others and I believe that all BBWs and SSBBWs should be proud to be fat. But I am realistic enough to acknowledge that often that's not how things actually are. 

Grey does not assume that 200 pound women will "lead luxurious lives free from insult or abuse given the universal tolerance our society shows them." That is your assumption. What Grey is trying to point out here is that for corporate America, a 200 pound woman would raise fewer eyebrows than a 400 pound woman. I'm not quite sure where Grey gets his numbers, but he does have a point. Fat is easier to hide at 200 lbs than at 400. And we live in a society where people's worth is judged according to whether they are visibly different. 

Grey does not assume that fat people deserve to be abused. He's simply trying to make a point about men with fat wives.

I don't like America's excessive preoccupation with looks. I think the dominant culture should focus on maximizing the potential of every individual and on respecting everyone's dignity. But there are many who think it is okay to exclude or abuse people who are different. 

I know you are offended by Grey's ideas. He is simply acknowledging facts in a realistic way. I don't like the reality, but being angry with the messenger is no way to effect social change.





NFA said:


> Yes, let us all revel in grey's "stark reality". The one where FA's are the true victims of fat discrimination as opposed to, you know, ACTUAL FAT PEOPLE. Where the bitter 400lb'ers are mired in jealousy of the those stealth bombers of the fat community, 200lb women who use their cunning ability to fly beneath the radar of fat discrimination to lead luxurious lives free from insult or abuse given the universal tolerance our society shows them. A world where fat people deserve all the abuse given to them, because they could just lose weight. A whole 1% of them, for a couple of years anyway, maybe. Hardly seems fair to excuse the 99% minority when such an overwhelming majority of maybe 1% for a little while proves grey right.
> 
> Yes, it is really reality based commentary like that that should earn the praise of us all. I mean, its not like bigots ever fall back on the claim of "just telling the truth" to justify their sullen and antisocial behavior. Nope. I've never seen that before.


----------



## ripley (May 23, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> You are taking Grey's comments way too far.




It was sarcasm, a fault I often indulge in. I know it's the lowest form of wit, but what can I say?


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## NFA (May 23, 2006)

And I'm just pointing out that grey's "reality" is anything but. Hate often lurks in the guise of "truth". No one is denying that our society discriminates against fat people. The point is that grey is gloating about it. He's using that discrimination as a weapon to dismiss the well-thought and well-supported critiques of his self-centric and self-pitying "perspective" on the issue. Its an attempt to change the discussion and to club out those who disagree with him. Its bad form, and it ought to be pointed out.


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## swordchick (May 23, 2006)

missaf said:


> I'm teaching my son to be confident in himself, and confident in his actions. That carries over to telling me what he likes and dislikes, but also it's helped with me understanding how his mind works.
> 
> We were in line at the grocery store once, and he saw a really pretty BBW that was bigger than I, and he blushed and buried his head in my shirt. I asked him what was wrong, and he said "She has a cute fat belly like you, Mom!" I replied, "Do you think she's pretty?" which he answered, yes, and I encouraged him to say that he thought she was very pretty, and not just think it. So he did, and the lady looked like someone dropped a grenade at her feet! LOL
> 
> The other day my son called me a beautiful butterfly, and he's right. I've undergone some serious growth and changes since my divorce. I've learned to embrace my past, my fat, and my life, and I've been out of my cocoon, and even kids can be taught to see beauty, express their desire for it, and not be ashamed. Part of activism, I think, is teaching kids this very thing, so that no one has to come out of hiding, they are already firm in their beliefs and know how to express it when they realize it.


That's so sweet! It is good to have your children around people who are different in appearance. When I was working with children, they would always tell that I was beautiful. And I would tell them that they are beautiful. It is all about self-esteem.


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## rainyday (May 23, 2006)

If this topic had been phrased as a question_--"I'm concerned that not having a Barbie wife affects my career. How do the rest of you cope with this fear?--_would this discussion would have gone differently? 

Pretty obviously the answer would still have been "grab your balls and stare it down" but maybe it could have turned into something supportive along the way. (And Grey, please don't think I'm taking your side--the generalizations and insistence that things are only one way are part of what's fired this up.) This could be a productive thread and instead it's making tracks for Hyde Park. Is there a way to turn it?


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## swordchick (May 23, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> I'm not surprised that the size acceptance movement is stalling. I've been with the movmement for 5 years. And what I see is an overabundance of cliquish behavior and unnecessary divisiveness. For the movement to succeed, people are going to have to be more mutually supportive.



I totally agree with this. I tried to stay away from the movement, because I don't being around people who aren't friendly.


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## Jane (May 23, 2006)

fatlane said:


> If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking until you do suck seed. -- Curly Howard.


DAMN, he stole my line.

Well, actually, it's more than a line...it's a way of life.


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## missaf (May 23, 2006)

I much prefer this kind of activism, encouraging those that want to know more than Militant activism, which is so prevalent today. So many think that you have to be militant to be heard, but a whisper can carry so much more power.


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## fatlane (May 23, 2006)

Jane said:


> DAMN, he stole my line.
> 
> Well, actually, it's more than a line...it's a way of life.



Nyuk nyuk nyuk.


----------



## moonvine (May 23, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> What I want to know is where are the available fat women in my area? I'm sure there have got to be some pretty young women nearby. Many of the better looking women are already taken. It's discouraging.



Dunno where they are in your area. It is about a year since I have had a date, though.


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## abluesman (May 23, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> One question would be how big is your wife? A 200 pound BBW will slip in under the radar but EVERYONE is going to take notice and generally in a disapproving way if she is 400+ pounds.
> 
> And as far as asking oneself "do I really need to be working for a company like that", they are all companies like that. Corporate America is by and large controlled by people with a very certain type of background (i.e. Ivy League men who belong to a certain type of old boy's club mentality) in which fat people have no place. I would be interested in knowing what all these wonderful accepting companies are that you have worked for over the years.





Christy is well over your "200 pound BBW". In fact, she does approach 400 and no one has taken notice "in a disapproving way". My wife is a very confident, intelligent, and beautiful person inside and out. Her wonderful personality seems to make people look past their prejudices and see her for what she is... a caring, loving human being who only wants to help others. She has no problem moving from her patients' bedside to the conference room for consults with physicians. I've been with her at social events (fundraisers and private parties) attended by Doctors, administrators, and other executives within the medical field. Each and every one treats her with the utmost respect... as they should.

As for me, I've had several positions with different companies within the Marmon Group and others as well. All of them had BBWs on staff. Many were in upper level management positions. If they experienced any prejudice, they never made it known. I now work for a privately owned company.

Sure, there are a lot of companies whose execs are members of the "good ole boys" club. But as I've stated before, I won't be a part of that mentality. Sorry, but my integrity is something I won't compromise.


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## Jes (May 23, 2006)

fatlane said:


> ... and to think _I'm_ the one banned around here. No justice, I tell you, no justice...
> 
> Money isn't everything. Why people equate it with success is beyond me. Once you're dead, it's worthless. Happiness stays with you and the more you give, the more you have.
> 
> ...


The impersonation isn't terrible, but you don't say: GOODNESS! near enough. Work on that.


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## missaf (May 23, 2006)

> Good gosh, but I love these forums. I'm chatting with supermodels. Yum.



if this doesn't make ya feel loved, I dunno what else would.


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## Tad (May 23, 2006)

saucywench said:


> Sometimes I feel that my fatness provides me with an excellent (and blatant) way to express my "up yours" attitude toward a society that would judge me by such arbitrary (and idiotic) standards. And it makes me appreciate and value more many people who dare to express their individuality via nonconformist standards.



One of the good things about getting older is having time to figure yourself out, and when it comes to fat issues, hanging at Dimensions has certainly helped me understand myself over the years. One of the things I came to realize--something which rather shocked me--was that one of the things that attracts me to BBW is exactly what you just said, that by being confidently fat, a person is automatically giving the bird to society's standards. 

Having said that, I'm not a rabble rouser. I've always been more inclined to simply do my own thing. So, to know that I prefer big women you'd have to observe my attraction to my wife, as I'm not apt to bring it up in conversation.

Regards;

-Ed


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## Jane (May 23, 2006)

Ed, honestly, we don't require than anyone wear a "I Likes 'Em Fat" t-shirt, but hey....honestly, the affection and respect you display towards your wife is the best advertisement in the world.

NFA, albuesman, FL, you, even that darned Chipmunk, there are so damn many good men on this board. Makes you proud to be in the same world.


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## fatlane (May 23, 2006)

Goodness, Jane, thanks a lot for that vote of confidence.

(Jes is recommending I work that word in more...)


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 24, 2006)

It really depends on what group you get with. Some groups are better than others. 




swordchick said:


> I totally agree with this. I tried to stay away from the movement, because I don't being around people who aren't friendly.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 24, 2006)

WELL SAID! No man should compromise his integrity in order to get ahead.




abluesman said:


> Christy is well over your "200 pound BBW". In fact, she does approach 400 and no one has taken notice "in a disapproving way". My wife is a very confident, intelligent, and beautiful person inside and out. Her wonderful personality seems to make people look past their prejudices and see her for what she is... a caring, loving human being who only wants to help others. She has no problem moving from her patients' bedside to the conference room for consults with physicians. I've been with her at social events (fundraisers and private parties) attended by Doctors, administrators, and other executives within the medical field. Each and every one treats her with the utmost respect... as they should.
> 
> As for me, I've had several positions with different companies within the Marmon Group and others as well. All of them had BBWs on staff. Many were in upper level management positions. If they experienced any prejudice, they never made it known. I now work for a privately owned company.
> 
> Sure, there are a lot of companies whose execs are members of the "good ole boys" club. But as I've stated before, I won't be a part of that mentality. Sorry, but my integrity is something I won't compromise.


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## Jane (May 24, 2006)

fatlane said:


> Goodness, Jane, thanks a lot for that vote of confidence.
> 
> (Jes is recommending I work that word in more...)


Well, Good Gravy (everytime Misty says that I just grin. Makes me think of home..well, and gravy)


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## abluesman (May 24, 2006)

Jane said:


> NFA, albuesman, FL, you, even that darned Chipmunk, there are so damn many good men on this board. Makes you proud to be in the same world.




Thank you Jane. 

(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jane again.)


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## EtobicokeFA (May 24, 2006)

abluesman said:


> Christy is well over your "200 pound BBW". In fact, she does approach 400 and no one has taken notice "in a disapproving way". My wife is a very confident, intelligent, and beautiful person inside and out. Her wonderful personality seems to make people look past their prejudices and see her for what she is... a caring, loving human being who only wants to help others. She has no problem moving from her patients' bedside to the conference room for consults with physicians. I've been with her at social events (fundraisers and private parties) attended by Doctors, administrators, and other executives within the medical field. Each and every one treats her with the utmost respect... as they should.
> 
> As for me, I've had several positions with different companies within the Marmon Group and others as well. All of them had BBWs on staff. Many were in upper level management positions. If they experienced any prejudice, they never made it known. I now work for a privately owned company.
> 
> Sure, there are a lot of companies whose execs are members of the "good ole boys" club. But as I've stated before, I won't be a part of that mentality. Sorry, but my integrity is something I won't compromise.



It's great to see some with integrity! And, it's great to see a BBW who is confident, intelligent and making their way in their field.


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