# Why does major weight loss in partner seem so traumatic? (long)



## fachad (Jan 21, 2008)

Hi everyone. I'm a LONG time lurker here at Dim. 

I know that others have shared stories of their SO going on a diet and the anxiety it generates. I am in a situation where my BBW wife of 18 years decided very suddenly to have WLS. She's known I'm an FA, and the depth of FAness to who I am for 17 of those years. 

We've had a happy compromise about her weight (lower than I wanted, higher than she wanted, but where she felt OK and had no health problems) for many years, but now, suddenly, she wants to lose massive amounts of weight - far beyond the point of our mutually agreed compromise.

She decided to have WLS after a routine Dr. visit on Dec. 21 where he suggested it. She made her appt with the surgeon right after she got home. (no thinking about it, no researching it or talking it over) Her initial consult was set for Jan 7; and then she had her surgery on Jan 17 - so as you can see this did not allow me very much time to adjust to such a sudden, drastic, unilaterally decided, massive life change.

She does not understand why this upsets me so much. Even though I act supportively, she can see right thru me and she can tell that I am very sad and anxious about her impending massive (probably about 100 lbs) weight loss.

She keeps telling me that it was for medical reasons (not current problems but anticipated future problems - only current problem is high BP); that she is not doing it "to" me; that I should not feel like she is doing something hurtful (not that I've said that, but she can read my mind); that she won't love me any less when she's thin; that she won't change, etc.

But she cannot understand why I am so upset, and I don't really understand it myself either.

She asks me: 

Is it just a sexual thing? Partly, I guess. 

Do I want her to look a certain way despite the health consequences? I am ashamed to admit that is somewhat true, but it's just a feeling, not an action, and more importantly, it's not the WHOLE truth. 

Am I jealous because she gets to achieve her major life goal, while some of my goals have gone unaccomplished? No, I don't think so. I've failed at some of my goals, but succeeded at others. I don't think it's "success jealousy". 

Am I afraid she'll leave me when she's thin? No. Not for a second. 

Do I think she'll change when she's thin? Well, most people DO undergo significant personality change as a result of major weight loss, but she won't. I'm sure of that.

So then WHAT is it? Why does it bother me so much? Why can't I just be merely "disappointed" that she does not (nor will she ever again) look (even close to) the way I like and just accept that she is doing this for herself and will be happy?

She understands why I might feel some disappointment, but she can't understand the degree of distress and upset about something that is "just looks, not really a big deal". She cannot understand why it is "still" (after 28 days from deciding out of nowhere to coming out of surgery) bothering me. She (and I) would like to know - if it's not just "looks" or "sexiness", why does this upset me so deeply?

At this point I have to accept it - I think that's partly why she did it so suddenly and so fast - to force me to accept it. But I'm still at a point of suffering over it, and because we are very close emotionally my suffering is spilling over into her. She knew this was going to freak me out, but I don't think she anticipated this outcome (i.e., that I would not leave her, that I would be (outwardly, at least) supportive, but that I would feel anxious and miserable and she would see this in me would that make her feel bad.) Nor do I think she anticipated that it would last this "long" and that my sadness might go on or get more acute as the weight starts (and keeps) comes off.

Any ideas?

Anybody have similar stories? Anything from simple anxiety about an SO's weight loss to coping with WLS and it's aftermath would be great. And does anybody have speculation or insight into the FA psyche as to why this seemingly "surface issue" is such a big deal for FAs?

Any comments, suggestions, stories or whatever would be very appreciated. Even supportive thoughts would be appreciated - I am drowning in and somewhat overwhelmed by negative feelings right now.

Thanks.


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## musicman (Jan 21, 2008)

Wow, you have my sympathies, man. Not for her impending weight loss, but for the fact she would do this to you without asking your input, and now she seems to be laying a major guilt trip on you for it, or at least, you're laying it on yourself.

To me, your wife seems rather foolish or at least reckless, to suddenly do this without researching it. I could go on and on about all the women who have died or had severe health problems from WLS, but I know that would just make you feel worse (and you've probably heard it all before if you've lurked here). I hope your wife has no long-term health problems. My guess is she fell victim to some fast-talking scam artists disguised as doctors.

The questions about wanting her to stay fat just because of a sexual preference, etc. are not relevant here, in my opinion. You answer "partly" but I think almost every FA would have to answer the same way. You couldn't have built 18 years of marriage on that alone. I don't think you're one of those shallow controlling FAs. Stop beating yourself up over this. It sounds like you really love her, but you feel like she has betrayed your trust. And I think she has. 

I don't want to second-guess her motives, but from your description, she sounds very cruel, if she really did this quickly so you would have no choice but to accept it. It sounds like she didn't care at all how you felt about it. I don't want to question the soundness of your marriage, but you may need to get couples counseling.

Obviously she has not heard or taken to heart the message of the size acceptance movement. Maybe that's another reason why you feel so bad. If you're like me, you probably view the entire weight loss industry as a major enemy of women, continually bilking them out of time, money, and their health. You and I know that 95% of diets don't work, and both diets and WLS can have serious negative health consequences. You feel like your wife has been seduced by the "dark side", for no apparent reason, and you wonder if she'll ever come back. Or indeed, whether she was always on "their side", and you didn't know it. You may wonder why you couldn't see this coming, and what else you don't know about her, even after 18 years of marriage.

Good luck to you. I wish I had some positive story to tell you, but my first wife had WLS about 20 years ago, before I knew about size acceptance and the dangers of WLS. She had very low self-esteem, which I didn't understand at the time. She could never believe that I thought she was beautiful and sexy. Of course, the WLS did nothing to improve her low self-esteem, which eventually destroyed our marriage several years later. Her WLS was botched and it caused her to vomit after every meal (I'm not making this up). I could handle that, but I couldn't handle her negative self-image. Just to be clear, the WLS didn't kill our marriage, it was her low self-esteem. It drained me, made me question my own value, and kept me from dating for several years after the divorce. Fortunately, I'm now married to a SSBBW who feels great about herself, the exact opposite (except for size) of my first wife.


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## wrestlingguy (Jan 21, 2008)

Not a post to be found, after 8 hours from the OP!! Not exactly the volume of support you were looking for, huh??

Anyway, some of the people here wouldn't support someone who they felt was just shallow enough to be disappointed in their wife changing something about themselves they felt needed to be changed. (not that I feel that way)

Others, the hardcore guys will tell you to give her the ultimatum......not necessarily what you wanted to hear, either.

I think some info may be missing from the original post, that you may want to elaborate on. 

First, did you both chew the fat, and discuss your mutual expectations with regard to her weight, and what she looked to you for as a result? Did your FA dom manifest itself AFTER you married?

Does she catch you looking at Dims, and some of the other sites where big ladies are revered? Do you constantly tell her how beautiful she is, without mentioning her weight, or her fat?

Did she talk with you prior to her doctor visit to see how you felt about WLS? Has she looked at the WLS Board here at Dims to see the variance of opinions about it?

Without knowing some of these details, it would be pretty difficult to offer any support or help from personal experience. Message me at any time privately, and I will be happy to discuss this, as I have plenty of opinions about this.


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## Totmacher (Jan 21, 2008)

Well, if I were in your situation I'd feel betrayed. She's going to change who she is, and didn't even ask your opinion until it was too late. So, in a way, she's decided to take herself away from you, even though she's not leaving. I can understand why that would be a little bit upsetting.

I'm sure if I _had_ a girlfriend the situation came up where I had to tell her I'd decided, on the spur of the moment, to get my right hand replaced with a hook because I had a conversation with my drinking buddies about how cool _Peter Pan_ was she'd be (justifiably) preturbed as well. 

It sounds like you've forgiven her and just want things to go back to normal. Do you talk? Are you honest? You really need to communicate here. You need to be comfortable together, and it doesn't sound like you are right now.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 21, 2008)

I understand all of your post... you feel like you've lost, you're mourning. You still have the wife you love, but a fundamental part of your relationship is lost. 

I'll suggest this - this wasn't as sudden as you may think. She's been brewing on this a LONG time. No one goes from no thought of surgery to life altering surgery in less than 30 days - so this may spell a bigger issue. That your "agreement" wasn't really as sturdy as you thought. Maybe she's just been waiting for a doctor to say the words so she had a reason to do it "guilt free". 

This is going to require a lot of talking between you, and maybe even counseling - I think. She's done something (I can't even believe they ran her through the process so fast, but that's an issue for another board) quick and drastic and expected you to keep up. 

Bottom line in it all is this WAS her choice to make, but that means she'll have to roll with the punches in what the consequences of that choice will be... including having a husband who is spinning and trying to find his footing in a changed playing field. 

I don't think there's a lot of blame here, but major lack of communication - and boy does that need to be worked on if you're going to get through this. 

Good luck to you both, and best wishes for her recovery to go well without complications.


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## SoVerySoft (Jan 21, 2008)

wrestlingguy said:


> Not a post to be found, after 8 hours from the OP!! Not exactly the volume of support you were looking for, huh??



Actually the original post was in moderated status because he is a new poster. It wasn't approved until this evening when I got home from work. And the second post was in moderated status for the same reason, and approved a few minutes ago by AnnMarie.


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## mossystate (Jan 21, 2008)

I agree that this is not just about a sudden shazam moment of wanting to lose weight. I don't think this is even so much about wls. I realize we all compromise in relationships, but, when people are dealing with negotiating physical desires, this becomes such a minefield. How can anyone really know how ' ok ' they will be when their body is changing..one way or another..?

I know you are upset. You feel like someone is doing something ' to ' you, but, she might just be doing ' for '..her. You ( a general you ) cannot own a body. You cannot, in some dry manner, negotiate things like how much a person will weigh. Not to where it can be or should be written in stone...no way. The hook analogy is silly. 

I would have liked to have seen more concern over potential physical issues your wife might face having wls, but all I came away with is how this will affect you, and how she is betraying some sort of contract. 

People change. Yeah, I know, big news flash. Your wife wants to be smaller. Whether it is through surgery, or eating in a different manner and exercising more, she is tired of being as big as she is. You have no right to pooh-pooh her worrying about future problems. I hope this will not become just one huge " oh, she is giving in to the pressures of mainstream society and wants to be a size 2 ". Becasue people change, the rest of us sometimes have to accept it, and make the following work about us....not them. 

You might just not make it together. As difficult as it is, and I know it would be, people change.


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

wrestlingguy said:


> Not a post to be found, after 8 hours from the OP!! Not exactly the volume of support you were looking for, huh??



Yep, I was starting to worry a bit.



wrestlingguy said:


> I think some info may be missing from the original post, that you may want to elaborate on.



Ok, sure, I'll elaborate. I thought there was way too much in my original post, even though I tried to keep as brief as possible.



wrestlingguy said:


> First, did you both chew the fat, and discuss your mutual expectations with regard to her weight, and what she looked to you for as a result? Did your FA dom manifest itself AFTER you married?



Yes, we talked about it extensively, from about 3 months into our relationship (we got married after 2 years), and often through our entire marriage. I never covered it up in any way, and it came up every time she talked about dieting. We had an explicit agreement at one time: I would support her weight loss, not bitch and moan, and she would lose until she got to a particular weight, and not go below that, even if I wasn't asking her what she weighed or trying to encourage her to eat more. It was based on trust, with no verify. It worked for about 10 years.



wrestlingguy said:


> Does she catch you looking at Dims, and some of the other sites where big ladies are revered? Do you constantly tell her how beautiful she is, without mentioning her weight, or her fat?



Sure. Not that she knew the URL of DIMS. She did not want to. She totally accepted me and my preference, but she never embraced the fat acceptance movement. But she definitely saw plenty of "evidence", over and over thru the years, of the exact nature and extent of my FA-ness.



wrestlingguy said:


> Did she talk with you prior to her doctor visit to see how you felt about WLS? Has she looked at the WLS Board here at Dims to see the variance of opinions about it?



She did not know it was going to come up in her Dr. visit. It was just a routine visit. Her BP was very high - it has always run high b/c of "dr. office anxiety" but it was even higher that day. And she had gained 10 lbs. even though she had been quite diligent in eating choices. Her doctor does not usually chastise her about her weight - he seems generally respectful toward fat people - but he asked her if she had considered lap band and said that her BP could cause a stroke. She took this as "if you don't do WLS, you will have a stroke". To that thought she added, "there is no other way I will lose weight - look, I've been trying and I've gained 10 more lbs."

Because she knew the extent of my preference, and that I would not approve, and because of her fear of health problems, she made the decision on the spot and then told me. Then took steps to make sure the surgery happened as fast as possible, so there would be no time for either one of us to think about it. She told me, "I had to take this out of both our hands: out of your hands so you do not try to prevent it; and out of my hands because I want to please you, and I'd have given in to you, so I had to take it out of my hands too."

Only after she had made a firm decision, and got the appointment made, and made the self-pay arranged from loans from family so insurance would not cause delays, did she begin to look into what it was she had decided to do. She was frankly horrified by the effects and the suffering it would impose on her. But she really believes it's medically necessary, and although she has insisted that she is not doing it for cosmetic reasons, she admits that she is really excited about "looking better" and being able to shop in "regular" (not women's) clothing stores. Apologies to me, but it HAD to be done, see, and besides, it's just a superficial issue, right?

I think AnnMarie hit it when she said she's probably wanted this for awhile, but having a Dr. talk about it, in the context of potentially serious medical problems, gave her a way to do it "guilt free".



wrestlingguy said:


> Without knowing some of these details, it would be pretty difficult to offer any support or help from personal experience. Message me at any time privately, and I will be happy to discuss this, as I have plenty of opinions about this.



So there you go. Anything left out of the original post was to spare would be-supporters from my long-windedness.


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## Totmacher (Jan 22, 2008)

Just because something's flamboyant doesn't automatically discount it. The point of the hook analogy was that there's major surgery occuring, there will be long-term physical changes, and there's a significant risk of complication all _without_ including the partner in the decision. These are both the kind of decisions a sane person doesn't make over one conversation. 
I don't think that you can do something solely "for" yourself when you're in a relationship. It happens "to" the both of you. If you do something you have to take into account how it's going to effect the other person.


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

musicman said:


> Wow, you have my sympathies, man. Not for her impending weight loss, but for the fact she would do this to you without asking your input, and now she seems to be laying a major guilt trip on you for it, or at least, you're laying it on yourself.



Thanks for the sympathy. She does sometimes imply that I'm being selfish or superficial, or that I'm not caring about her health, but I think she is just trying to justify her actions to me. A bit too much protesting, saying things which could be taken as hurtful, but I'll take it to mean that she really does care, and feels a bit guilty for acting in such a heavy handed way. 

And yes, I'm laying some guilt on myself for not just "accepting" this and moving on without excessive grief. I want to be kind and forgive her because I love her, and I also want to get over it for my own self so I can feel better and get on with my life. I haven't had any fun or a non-sad moment for over a month now, for chrissake. It just sucks so much, it's so total and so permanent.

And, "It's only just begun" - that song has been going thru my head constantly lately. That song used in the horror movie "1408" - and coincidentally, sung by...who else...Karen Carpenter!



musicman said:


> To me, your wife seems rather foolish or at least reckless, to suddenly do this without researching it. I could go on and on about all the women who have died or had severe health problems from WLS, but I know that would just make you feel worse (and you've probably heard it all before if you've lurked here). I hope your wife has no long-term health problems. My guess is she fell victim to some fast-talking scam artists disguised as doctors.



Well, rash and reckless, yes. That, and the heavy handed execution really bother me. But her GP Dr. is generally quite good and considerate. And her surgeon is a bariatric expert. He told us in the initial consult that he did thousands of bypass operations; then he waited for 5 years to see the long-term follow up of lap-band, then he ENTIRELY quite doing bypass because of the risk to patients and the much greater safety of lap-band. AND he does it at a greatly reduced cost to self-pay patients "as a community service". So yes, I've read the horror stories, but if any surgeon in the world had to do this to her, I'm glad it's him and not some money grubbing butcher, which he most definitely is not.



musicman said:


> The questions about wanting her to stay fat just because of a sexual preference, etc. are not relevant here, in my opinion. You answer "partly" but I think almost every FA would have to answer the same way. You couldn't have built 18 years of marriage on that alone. I don't think you're one of those shallow controlling FAs. Stop beating yourself up over this. It sounds like you really love her, but you feel like she has betrayed your trust. And I think she has.



See my post in response to Wrestlingguy about how we developed over time and how it does FEEL like she betrayed my trust, but I CAN see what she was thinking. And that does help. 



musicman said:


> I don't want to second-guess her motives, but from your description, she sounds very cruel, if she really did this quickly so you would have no choice but to accept it. It sounds like she didn't care at all how you felt about it. I don't want to question the soundness of your marriage, but you may need to get couples counseling.



Again, see my post to wrestlingguy. She is not so much cruel as tough in the face of (perceived) necessity. She does/did care how I felt, she just felt like she had to override that and her desire not to upset me to do what "had to be done". Our marriage is very sound, of that I am sure. Otherwise I (anyone!) would have blown up and stormed off for good, rather than face the suffering; trying to see things her way; and trying not to feel hurt or screwed or pissed and trying find a way to move past this long-term, major disappointment and loss. I posted here because I want to find a way to help her see things my way - not to change how she will act - but to allow her to feel compassion rather than anger towards me when she sees me miserable and moping.




musicman said:


> Obviously she has not heard or taken to heart the message of the size acceptance movement. Maybe that's another reason why you feel so bad.



No, she has not. She accepted me, but did not embrace the size acceptance movement. And yes, it is a blow to my world view, and that is partly why I feel so bad.



musicman said:


> If you're like me, you probably view the entire weight loss industry as a major enemy of women, continually bilking them out of time, money, and their health. You and I know that 95% of diets don't work, and both diets and WLS can have serious negative health consequences.



Well, I do feel that way about the industry in general, but as I said, I feel quite confident in the competence and sincerity of her surgeon. He STOPPED his livelihood -bypasses - totally because they were relatively harmful AND he waited for long-term follow up on lap-band before he made the switch. And he does it very inexpensively, despite his prestige among his medical peers. He is not a greedy butcher. He feels that he is doing a community service - helping people who suffer from a "disease" in such a way that he can help as many people as possible even while making less money than he could. You can HATE the weight-loss industry, and HATE WLS, but I looked in his eyes, and I believe he is sincere, and I do respect that.



musicman said:


> You feel like your wife has been seduced by the "dark side", for no apparent reason, and you wonder if she'll ever come back. Or indeed, whether she was always on "their side", and you didn't know it. You may wonder why you couldn't see this coming, and what else you don't know about her, even after 18 years of marriage.



I think she jumped to conclusions, and that she was motivated by her own desire to be thin, which she could not, in good conscience, indulge in because of me...until it was "medically necessary".

I do wonder why I didn't see it coming, and wish desperately that I had, because I would have thrown all the food away and forced her to walk until she cried so she'd lose SOME weight and not ALL of it. But alas, it's too late for that.

In the beginning I did feel venerable, uncared for, and bewildered - but on reflection, I really don't believe there are any other surprises: this was an exception, its not indicative of a pattern or an underlying reason to mistrust. 

But life sure does throw you curve balls, and sometimes they hit you hard, right in the nuts...arrgh.


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## mossystate (Jan 22, 2008)

Well, taking into consideration, to me, in a situation like this, means that I would want my partner to make as easy a transition as possible. This does not mean I would not go ahead with something that has to do with my body. That one is not up for discussion. The only real input my partner, at the end of the day, is to stress that I get lots of information.

Let's say that there is heart disease in this woman's family ( now, just throwing this out here ) and while some of the people in her family with this problem are thinner than her, she knows that for her, the two issues collide and she does not want to tempt fate...any more than necessary. You might say that nothing bad might happen to her heart. If it does, how will hubby suffer...then..? The heart attack ( this is what happens in my scenario ) will make him sad, but, ya know what?...it ISN'T HIS HEART..now...is it. We are not talking about someone making a financial decision without the ok from the other party. 

The other party gets to be upset...that's as far as that goes. To try to force the issue in another direction...is pretty outrageous.


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## stan_der_man (Jan 22, 2008)

The hardest thing about my wife getting WLS is that I felt it was yet another insult to my preference for being attracted to fat women, one of many insults Ive endured my entire life. I never wanted to be attracted to something that a woman hated about herself. This was just one more thing reinforcing what a pervert I am for being attracted to fat women, a condition they themselves dont like. I had no problem with my wife making a decision like this about her body; she is the one who ultimately pays the price for decisions about her health. She didnt need to ask me for permission to get WLS, as a matter of fact, she didnt. There were many things she consulted other people about in the past to the disregard of my opinion; this was just one more thing. I can live with that. The one thing I will never accept is the culture of weight loss, and the fictitious belief that loosing weight is the end all to good health. Most people who have WLS discover this to their chagrin sooner or later. Health problems related to being heavy are replaced with health problems related to having WLS. Sometimes, high blood pressure returns even if the weight is kept off. This is what Ive read, and observed. WLS is just a physical means of "behavior modification". You eat bad stuff, you barf. WLS doesn't teach a person how to be healthy. The stomach eventually readapts, often times WLS patients can even drink sodas again after a few years. I will even go a step further. In my opinion, I think WLS surgeons will eventually find their rightful place in history along side doctors who performed lobotomies.

This is where you are headed my friend. You will have to help your wife through her post-surgery adjustment period; let me put it this way, episodes of not feeling good, lots of diarrhea and barfing. This decision she unilaterally made will affect you in many ways. She will probably want to go to a WLS support group after her surgery. She may very well ask you to go along. You are probably going to ask yourself, Why should I? People will congratulate your wife on all the weight she has lost. They will look at you and expect you to be happy, perhaps even ask Arent you proud of her? They will say, Doesnt she look so much younger!? You will learn how to answer people with a silent smile. Your wife will meet other people who have had WLS, they will exchange Splenda recipes (Splenda is a form of chlorine BTW No known adverse health effects does not necessarily mean healthy.) Your wife may eventually discover those fat free potato chips, and perhaps not tell you that she purchased a bag for the both of you. If you have an unexplained case of diarrhea for a week you now know why. Your wife will rapidly loose weight and she will have to purchase new clothing. She will eventually get down to a size where she can purchase clothing in regular stores. She will tell you how horrible it was being fat and how she couldnt watch real fashion shows where the clothing fit her. All this because she was fat a condition you found to be attractive. What a pervert you are. What a pervert I am. I remember ("back when she was fat") how happy my wife would be when she found a new store where the clothing fit her; she used to go shopping with her other fat friends. I didnt know those times were so horrible for her. Sometimes I wish the FA inside of me would just go away and die. Maybe it already has good riddance. 

Having the weight being gone from your wifes body is only a fraction of what you are going to go through Fachad, only a fraction.


fa_man_stan


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## Tad (Jan 22, 2008)

I've corresponded occasionally with the original poster, via email, previously. Most recently regarding this issue. Below is the guts of my last email, trying to throw out some ideas of why he is feeling how he is feeling.

====================================================

Well, 'thoughts' might be even too strong of a term....fractional
thoughts maybe? Starting points for brainstorming? Of course, part of why I
can't get much beyond that is us "FA" come in all sorts of variants, with
different things mattering to different people in different combinations, or
something like that.

So, what has occurred to me:

- For many FA, "fat is a good thing." It may have its drawbacks, not
be for everyone, etc, but ultimately, more fat is more goodness. 
People having to lose some of it for a practical reason, OK, that makes sense. But to decide on a drastic loss, is a total rejection. It is a bit
like if you liked long hair, OK, you can accept not everyone can live with
hair to their knees, maybe all most people can manage is hair to their mid-back, and if your partner had to go shorter than that, well, things happen. If they got cancer and the treatment caused their hair to fall
out, you can deal with that. But if they announce that they are cutting it
all off, and get electrolysis of the scalp to stay bald, then....!!!

- For some FA, part of their dream is 'fat-land' aka a fat-friendly,
fat-safe, place. A place where their preferences are acceptable, and
where fat people are admired and supported. Even if just in your house,
maybe you try to establish that. Someone there having WLS pretty much puts a bomb under fat-land and blows it up. Fat is no longer safe there--not only will it not be there, it has been soundly, fundamentally, and permanently
rejected.

- With normal losses, there is some chance the weight comes back. With
WLS, probably not (and if it does, it has been a big failure, with long-term
health risks for nothing). So there is no hope that you get things
more your way in the future--your fantasy/dreams have been cleanly cut off.
Even if you didn't expect future gains to happen, the fact that it was
possible always leaves that small erotic window of hope open, and now it is
shut.

- The fact that you were not given even a nominal say, is a bit
ripping. If this had been discussed, you hadn't agreed, but she'd
decided to go forward anyway, saying she understood your points, but
this was just more important to her, it would be hard enough to deal with.
To not be consulted at all sends the message, maybe unintentionally but
all the same, that either she doesn't care about your opinion, or that she did
not trust you as a couple to be able to deal with her getting your opinion,
then doing what she wanted anyway. If you came home and announced that you had quit your job and were going back to school to re-train for something you'd always wanted to do, it would be a hell of a shock to your wife. I use this example very deliberately, because I think the approximate equivalent in terms of overall attraction of their partner is physical appearance to men and 'success' to women. From what I can see, to women it tends to matter less if your looks totally change, so long as your place in society doesn't. To men more vice versa, I think. Both matter to both genders, but the priorities differ.

On another note, I hope the surgery went well, and that she is recovering well.

=====================================================

The more I think about it, I think the question: "Why didn't you talk to me about this first?" is the one that really needs to be honestly answered. It might be something that she'd need time to answer honestly to herself first. It is almost for certain going to kick open a nest of termites, but better to know the termites are there, and work on doing something about them, than just let them keep gnawing away.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 22, 2008)

If i'm interpreting your post correctly, your wife has taken your feelings into account. The two of you initially agreed on a weight she'd maintain. So she is aware of your preferences and obviously did try to satisfy them.

I also find the idea that she's going from one doctor visit to surgery in a month to be a little suspect. Every person who's posted on here about WLS has written about having to jump through all sorts of hoops to get insurance to pay for it. One woman said she had to log proven attempts to lose weight otherwise. Her doctor would also have to chart not only ongoing morbid obesity but also comorbidities of that. I once had an admin job in a doctor's office and we couldn't even get Xenical or Meridia approved by insurance companies if a patient did not have high blood pressure or diabetes. 

I also have to wonder about her doctor's view of your wife's health. If you believe an impending weight loss of 100 pounds is going to happen, that seems to mean she is at least 100 pounds overweight. Honestly? For a lot of people that is a lot of weight to carry around.

Health is not just about blood pressure or fasting glucose levels. It's also mental health; how she feels about the day to day challenges of living in such a large body. Does she get anxious about going to movies and not fitting in the seats, or get sad if she goes shopping with a friend or relative and can't buy anything because there's nothing that fits her?

Lastly, she's doing this for herself, not TO you. And after 18 years of marriage, people change.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 22, 2008)

fachad said:


> Anybody have similar stories? Anything from simple anxiety about an SO's weight loss to coping with WLS and it's aftermath would be great. And does anybody have speculation or insight into the FA psyche as to why this seemingly "surface issue" is such a big deal for FAs?
> 
> Any comments, suggestions, stories or whatever would be very appreciated. Even supportive thoughts would be appreciated - I am drowning in and somewhat overwhelmed by negative feelings right now.
> 
> Thanks.



Hi, fachad. I had WLS nearly 4 years ago. My husband was OK with my initial decision, but had some concern when I got smaller than he'd envisioned. He expressed some of your same fears and anxiety-based emotion. He felt guilty that he wasn't as attracted to my smaller body, at least not at first, and certainly not as strongly. It was a very distressing issue for both of us. We've since come to understand each other better. One thing that he did completely understand: Although I had no immediate health concerns, the extra weight that I was carrying was very physically limiting for me, and that caused me a great deal of emotional distress. I was about 140 pounds overweight, and 36 years old when I had surgery. You mentioned that your wife had no immediate health concerns either; but I'm wondering if you've taken into account that as she gets older, it does become more difficult for some of us to carry a lot of additional weight. When I was in my 20's, I could do just about anything I wanted to do. As I got older, it became more difficult, and when I found myself unconsciously structuring the activities of my day around how I could best limit my movements, it became intolerable. 

I am surprised at how quickly your wife was able to schedule surgery. I made the decision to have the procedure in January 2004, and the process moved in an almost unheard-of blur of speed for me: I had surgery in April 2004. Most of the people in my WLS support group were shocked at how quickly this happened for me, as many of them waited for an average of 6-12 months from their point of decision. I can certainly understand the difficulty that you are having with this emotionally. From what you've said, your wife knows that you are struggling, and the two of you have been talking. Hopefully, you will continue to do so, and to share your feelings with her, no matter how ugly you think they may be. You have a right to your feelings, and if you stuff them, they will just come out in other ways. Obviously, you love your wife. Hopefully, the two of you will be able to navigate through these new changes.




musicman said:


> Obviously she has not heard or taken to heart the message of the size acceptance movement. Maybe that's another reason why you feel so bad. If you're like me, you probably view the entire weight loss industry as a major enemy of women, continually bilking them out of time, money, and their health. You and I know that 95% of diets don't work, and both diets and WLS can have serious negative health consequences. You feel like your wife has been seduced by the "dark side", for no apparent reason, and you wonder if she'll ever come back. Or indeed, whether she was always on "their side", and you didn't know it. You may wonder why you couldn't see this coming, and what else you don't know about her, even after 18 years of marriage.



From what limited information the OP shared with us, there's no way of knowing how carefully his wife researched surgery before having it, or how long she'd been considering it. That aside, though ... do you think that every person who opts for WLS just isn't "educated" enough about size acceptance? That attitude negates the experience of dozens of people on this very board alone.




Totmacher said:


> I'm sure if I _had_ a girlfriend the situation came up where I had to tell her I'd decided, on the spur of the moment, to get my right hand replaced with a hook because I had a conversation with my drinking buddies about how cool _Peter Pan_ was she'd be (justifiably) preturbed as well.



She may be more understanding if you had your right hand chopped off because it was riddled with arthritis and caused you a great deal of physical pain, every time you moved it. That may be a more apt description for why people have WLS; your example is incredibly superficial and not in the slightest bit comparable.



fa_man_stan said:


> This is where you are headed my friend. You will have to help your wife through her post-surgery adjustment period; let me put it this way, episodes of not feeling good, lots of diarrhea and barfing. This decision she unilaterally made will affect you in many ways. She will probably want to go to a WLS support group after her surgery. She may very well ask you to go along. You are probably going to ask yourself, Why should I? People will congratulate your wife on all the weight she has lost. They will look at you and expect you to be happy, perhaps even ask Arent you proud of her? They will say, Doesnt she look so much younger!? You will learn how to answer people with a silent smile. Your wife will meet other people who have had WLS, they will exchange Splenda recipes (Splenda is a form of chlorine BTW No known adverse health effects does not necessarily mean healthy.) Your wife may eventually discover those fat free potato chips, and perhaps not tell you that she purchased a bag for the both of you. If you have an unexplained case of diarrhea for a week you now know why. Your wife will rapidly loose weight and she will have to purchase new clothing. She will eventually get down to a size where she can purchase clothing in regular stores. She will tell you how horrible it was being fat and how she couldnt watch real fashion shows where the clothing fit her. All this because she was fat a condition you found to be attractive. What a pervert you are. What a pervert I am. I remember ("back when she was fat") how happy my wife would be when she found a new store where the clothing fit her; she used to go shopping with her other fat friends. I didnt know those times were so horrible for her. Sometimes I wish the FA inside of me would just go away and die. Maybe it already has good riddance.
> 
> Having the weight being gone from your wifes body is only a fraction of what you are going to go through Fachad, only a fraction.
> 
> ...



Stan, my husband experienced a lot of what you've described above. In the year after I had WLS, I learned not to eat in public, because I got sick so often. A few times, he stood over me in the busy parking lot of a place we'd just visited so I could vomit as discreetly as possible. It never quite struck home to me, as I was focused more on my own discomfort (being the one yakking up my dinner), how awful it must have also been for *him*. He had to live with my tears as I lost huge chunks of my hair ... with my sudden and quite ridiculous obsession with my appearance as I lost the weight ... with the bouts of sickness and those ever-so-attractive white foamy upheavals after just about every attempted meal ... episodes of extreme fatigue, where I couldn't manage to do anything but go to work, and then come home & fall into bed. I have learned how to care for myself so that I don't get sick; I know what to avoid and what I can eat in very limited quantities. I also learned the hard way that I am *not* normal, and cannot skip my supplements, and haven't had any problems with anemia since I started taking them. So, things do normalize, eventually, for most of us. What I've taken away from what you've shared though is a bit of how it must have felt from my husband's perspective. 

Well, aside from the "reinforcing that I'm a pervert" line of reasoning. My husband is unapologetic about his preferences, and doesn't rely on my perspective in forming his self-esteem. You own that one, Stan The Man


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## Jes (Jan 22, 2008)

To the OP: I hear how upset you are and how confused you are about your own upsetness (a word?). I feel for you, but I'm glad that you feel your marriage is secure, in both directions and that despite a big change in your wife's appearance, you feel most things won't change. Perhaps Stan's comments shed light on what you're feeling? Maybe not, of course--only you can know.

I think a few people have suggested couples counseling. That's not a bad idea, because parts of this change will affect you 2 as a couple. But, keep in mind that your wife might not see a change in her weight as something couple related, just as if you wouldn't go to couple counseling for you going bald (even if she'd married you because one of the things she found sexiest about you was your long hair, or whatever). Her weight and health may just be about her, so she might not be interested in counseling, though certainly, that may be part of the compromise any couple makes, so perhaps she will.

In any case, I think the thoughts your'e thinking and feelings you're feeling sound like a good reason to get yourself into some therapy, too. If you're not sure how to unlock just exactly what is sticking in your craw about this and how it may, or may not, change your marriage or your feelings about your wife (and hers about you, in return, as much of what we feel is reactionary, and this isn't a 1 way street), then perhaps some key questions posed by an outsider trained in asking them might really help you get a handle on what you're feeling. I'm not suggesting years of analysis, but even 10 or 12 sessions can get you to a much better place quickly. 

luck!


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> If i'm interpreting your post correctly, your wife has taken your feelings into account. The two of you initially agreed on a weight she'd maintain. So she is aware of your preferences and obviously did try to satisfy them.



You are correct. She did take my feelings into account for a long time and tried to satisfy my preferences. And that could be why this seems like such a shock - because she has always taken my feelings into account, and suddenly she is doing this thing which is no longer any kind of compromise. 

She gets 100% of what she wants and I get 0% of what I want, and it's permanent. Giving up some of your desires, in a give-and-take setting, is part of getting along. But being forced to give up every bit of something that means a lot to you, and knowing that there is no hope of things in this area ever getting better, is quite a blow. For example if you lose a job you love, you can say, "well, I'll look for another job". Or if you go bankrupt, you can say, "well, we'll start over and work hard and build up some savings again". But in this case, there is no hope, ever, of getting things even partially back to how they were before that day in December.

Not that I'm saying she had no right to do it, or that it was somehow "unfair" of her to do things the way she did -- I'm just saying, it FEELS like way to me...this is how I perceive it, and THAT'S why it's such a big deal and that's why it's causing me so much grief.




LoveBHMS said:


> I also find the idea that she's going from one doctor visit to surgery in a month to be a little suspect. Every person who's posted on here about WLS has written about having to jump through all sorts of hoops to get insurance to pay for it. One woman said she had to log proven attempts to lose weight otherwise. Her doctor would also have to chart not only ongoing morbid obesity but also co morbidities of that. I once had an admin job in a doctor's office and we couldn't even get Xenical or Meridia approved by insurance companies if a patient did not have high blood pressure or diabetes.



She really had no idea it was going to come up and had never considered doing WLS before. 

Regarding the rapid turn-around time, apparently you have never seen the awesome and near-miraculous power of SELF-PAY. Once you say, "this is self-pay", the drs office just drops all the forms and requirements in the trash can and takes out the credit card swiper. 

You don't have to prove ANYTHING, you don't have to meet ANY requirements, and you don't have to WAIT behind anybody, even if they've been in line for months, if you are paying cash. From the first appointment with the surgeon until the surgery was scheduled was only 9 days. The surgeon said, "usually you have to meet all these insurance company requirements, and normally we have you do two weeks on these protein shakes before surgery, but 9 days will be enough. See you next Thursday." 

She arranged the self-pay so I would have no time to try to talk her out of it, and so she would have no time to feel sorry for me and back out to please me, which she considered a real possibility. She thought it was like "ripping the band-aid off fast", and would save us fights and agony. FWIW.



LoveBHMS said:


> I also have to wonder about her doctor's view of your wife's health. If you believe an impending weight loss of 100 pounds is going to happen, that seems to mean she is at least 100 pounds overweight. Honestly? For a lot of people that is a lot of weight to carry around.



The 100 lb number was kind of arbitrary - it was what she saw when she looked into it online as the typical result of WLS. Her GP Dr never said, "you must lose 100 lbs". It was more like, her BP was very high that day- it has always run high at the drs b/c of "dr. office anxiety", but it was even higher that day. AND she had gained 10 lbs. even though she had been quite diligent in her eating choices. Her doctor does not usually chastise her about her weight - he seems generally respectful toward fat people - but he saw her distress at the weight gain, asked her if she had ever considered lap-band and further said that her BP could cause a stroke if it were not controlled. Her put her on BP meds, and told her to "look into" lap-band. She took this as "if you don't do WLS, you're going to have a stroke". To that thought she added, "there is no other way I will ever be able to lose weight - look, I've been doing so good and yet I've gained 10 more lbs. WLS is the ONLY way." So when I see the thoughts that went into her decision  as long as I can resist thinking about where she misunderstood or was mistaken or whatever  when I see things how she saw them, then I do understand how she came to the decision. Not that I like it or agree, but I understand.

So I'm hoping that she really does well, and that her health improves with a modest to moderate weight loss. At that point, she may - not that she has to - she may decide that she is Ok at that point and start taking my preferences into consideration again  confidently knowing that now, unlike before, she is truly in CONTROL of her weight.




LoveBHMS said:


> Health is not just about blood pressure or fasting glucose levels. It's also mental health; how she feels about the day to day challenges of living in such a large body. Does she get anxious about going to movies and not fitting in the seats, or get sad if she goes shopping with a friend or relative and can't buy anything because there's nothing that fits her?



Yep, I realize that. Before, when we had that "compromise", what she wanted out of it was: better health, feeling better physically, and feeling comfortable in her body. How could I refuse that? What I asked her to find the highest place where she could honestly say she really met those objectives and where she would feel happy long-term. I wanted to help me to be comforatble with helping her lose weight when needed, instead of (ashamed to admit) sabotage her (which was sometimes a reality when I was younger and stupider) and feel good about helping her. I wanted to know that I could help her without screwing myself and what I wanted, and I cared enough to respect her number, without dickering to try for a higher number, and work with her at her stated goals.

She noticed the dramatic change in absence of sabotage and change of attitude when this transpired - she said she did not think someone could change that fast. But despite my helping as much as an FA can (not having junk food around, "forgetting" to buy favorite snacks, etc.) she gradually gained 30 lbs over 10 years to get right back to the place she was when we first made the compromise. And the last 10 lbs came on despite very healthy eating.

But as I said before, I'm hoping that when she gets down to where she felt good and happy before, that she remembers how much it means to me. I know I can't ask or expect that, but I can hold out a sliver of hope that things might work out that way.



LoveBHMS said:


> Lastly, she's doing this for herself, not TO you.



Nice call. She said those EXACT WORDS to me. She saw that that is how it felt to me, and she said, "please always remember, I'm not doing this TO you".




LoveBHMS said:


> And after 18 years of marriage, people change.



Well, if I've got ONE ace up my sleeve, it's that while SOME people change after many years of marriage, and MOST people change after dramatic weight loss, SHE is most certainly NOT going to change. When I expressed fears that she would change, she looked at me like I was mumbling in Chinese. 

Later, when she was talking to her best friend of 20 years about this, her friend, who knows somewhat, but not the extent of my FA-ness, asked how I was doing. (very nice to know that even her friends think about me and how I'm feeling) My wife told her friend I was upset, and that I had fears she might change, and that I had cited post-WLS divorce statistics. Her friend just laughed and told her my emotions must be warping my thinking, because it's really obvious to everyone who knows us that her personality is rock solid, to the point that the idea of change is laughable - the only thing more ridiculous being the idea that she might leave me because she's thin! Her friend told her she's sorry I'm feeling insecure, but COME ON, get real! And I DO KNOW that's true. So we DO have that going for us...


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> I understand all of your post...



AnnMarie, you are wonderful and from what you've said I believe you really do understand.



AnnMarie said:


> you feel like you've lost, you're mourning. You still have the wife you love, but a fundamental part of your relationship is lost.



That's exactly it! You hit the nail on the head. I don't think it could have been said so concisely, yet so accurately, in any other way. 

I knew I was in mourning, and I've looked into how people mourn and cope with loss and that has helped me tremendously. But I wasnt sure WHY I was in mourning...over some fat tissue?...is it just "looks"...don't I care about her health?...Why?

So you say, "You still have the wife you love, but a fundamental part of your relationship is lost." And that is an epiphany for me. THAT is why this is such a big deal for me. It was a very important, very fundamental part of our relationship. It was highly valued by me, and a core part of my identity. And the TOTALITY and the PERMANENCE make it much harder to deal with than an ordinary loss or defeat.

Thank you for putting it so plainly. I KNEW it wasn't JUST about sex or looks.



AnnMarie said:


> I'll suggest this - this wasn't as sudden as you may think. She's been brewing on this a LONG time. No one goes from no thought of surgery to life altering surgery in less than 30 days - so this may spell a bigger issue. That your "agreement" wasn't really as sturdy as you thought. Maybe she's just been waiting for a doctor to say the words so she had a reason to do it "guilt free".



Well, I think you're partly right and partly wrong. She had not considered or looked into WLS before, but the confluence of factors at her dr. appt...

Her BP was very high that day- it has always run high at the drs b/c of "dr. office anxiety", but it was even higher that day. AND she had gained 10 lbs. even though she had been quite diligent in her eating choices. Her doctor does not usually chastise her about her weight - he seems generally respectful toward fat people - but he saw her distress at the weight gain, asked her if she had ever considered lap-band and further said that her BP could cause a stroke if it were not controlled. Her put her on BP meds, and told her to "look into" lap-band. 

Now she took this as "if you don't do WLS, you're going to have a stroke!". To that thought she added, "there is NO other way I will EVER be able to lose weight - look, I've been doing so good and yet I've gained 10 more lbs. WLS is the ONLY way." 

So when I see the thoughts that went into her decision  as long as I can resist thinking about where she misunderstood or was mistaken or whatever  when I see things how she saw them, then I do understand how she came to the decision. Not that I like it or agree, but I understand.

So I don't think she had been plotting on a conscious level, but I do think that she wanted to be thinner, and had refrained from going gung-ho out of deference to me, but then she saw the dr.s comments as a way to do it "guilt free", and as a way to present it to me as "medically necessary" so I could not object without coming off like a complete jerk.



AnnMarie said:


> This is going to require a lot of talking between you, and maybe even counseling - I think. She's done something (I can't even believe they ran her through the process so fast, but that's an issue for another board) quick and drastic and expected you to keep up.



We've talked it to death. It was pretty grueling for a long time, but it's gotten better lately. 

It's hard to swallow, because she holds all the power, and I am just forced - strong armed - into going with whatever she decides. It is a "she gets 100%, I get 0% outcome". In normal circumstances, that would be unacceptable to anyone with any measure of self-respect. So I have to work and try hard to see how this is different, because I don't want to feel like one of those people who is totally without self-worth and who just "takes whatever they get and likes it". I know this situation is different, but it sure FEELS that way.

As far as counseling goes, I just don't think a counselor would be able to appreciate, in any way, what is REALLY going on. I got more from your first paragraph that I would have gotten from months of counseling. Really. Thanks.



AnnMarie said:


> Bottom line in it all is this WAS her choice to make, but that means she'll have to roll with the punches in what the consequences of that choice will be... including having a husband who is spinning and trying to find his footing in a changed playing field.



Yes, she sees that now and just wants desperately for me to accept this and be happy again. Part of what I wanted out of this thread was to be able to understand, and therefore explain to her, why it was so difficult for me to accept; why it might take some time; and that it was much more of an issue than merely a superficial concern with looks. So she can have some patience and compassion with me when she sees me spinning, instead of being angry or bewildered at why I am spinning about something that is just superficial and "shouldnt really matter".



AnnMarie said:


> I don't think there's a lot of blame here, but major lack of communication - and boy does that need to be worked on if you're going to get through this.



I think you're right there too. Except we have talked about it quite a bit, and now I am beginning to realize that in SOME cases, more communication is not the answer. Sometimes it is more kind to keep your thoughts and feelings to yourself - at least for a while - when the subject is sore, as a consideration for the other person.



AnnMarie said:


> Good luck to you both, and best wishes for her recovery to go well without complications.



Thanks. 

And BTW, her recovery is going VERY well, better than we had thought possible. She had a lot of soreness, but no nausea, no vomiting, and she has been able to eat cream soups (mashed veggies), yogurt, small crackers, etc. and drink plenty without any problems - and this only 3 days after surgery. We both had expectations of weeks of clear broth and ice chips, so from how it is going on now, it seems like her recovery is going well.


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

Just one quick thought for everyone who has suggested counseling. I seriously doubt the ability of a counselor to tease out what's really going on and offer anything useful. 

AnnMarie said in one sentence more than a non-DIM person could have come up with in months.

I'm an IT Professional. Sometimes I have to call tech support for a product. I dial an 800 number, and someone in Pakistan picks up. I know more than they do. They are going over basic things that I looked into hours ago. It's frustrating when you know more than the person who you are supposed to call for "specialized support". 

I'm not a mental health professional, but I do think that I (and the people here on this board) know much more about this - what it means, how it feels, how they deal with similar things - than any councilor would ever figure out. The possibilty of them missing the point and dwelling on the basics would be so frustrating.

So I'd feel like I was wasting my time and money, and get impatient as they went over the basic things. Imagine hearing this in a Pakistani accent: is it plugged in?, have you rebooted?, did you re-seat the memory? ok, click the start button...that's on the bottom of your screen, on the left, ok...now click the settings, button...(you get the idea).


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## SexyCanadian (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm currently studying social work at University right now but truthfully I have never encountered anything in my studies regarding FA's or even size acceptance. Counselling is a good idea because the thing about counselling is that person is not there to say whose right and whose wrong, they don't even dispense advice. Their job is to listen to what youre saying, ask you the right questions and in general give you direction. Truthfully most people hold the answers to the own problems and are saying them outloud without listening. In counselling or at least with social work they generally listen and reframe back to you what youre saying and ask you questions that make you think or even follow a thought pattern in a new direction. 

As a woman a BBW to be exact, Although I love myself at the size I am, I would hope that when I get married my husband will choose me as his wife because I'm the one he wants to be the mother of his children, and the old lady in the rocking chair beside him when I'm 80. I think it's hard as a woman to put that much stock into appearance because there is much more then weight or at least much more that is important when it comes to the one you love. I think as a woman it is difficult to rationalize how a man so in love with you would care so much about the superficial but I think as a BBW thats an internal struggle that we have struggled with for most of our lives. 

I sympathize with your feeling of loss, Fat is something that you and many others find very sexy and its really hard to be losing that. I would feel the same way if my bf came to me tonight and told me he's been to the doctor and his 7" was to become 4" because the doctor feels it will lower his chances of having a heart attach (high BP and all you know). I love him but I love that part of him and its part of him that has brought me pleasure.

Hope this has helped


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## altered states (Jan 22, 2008)

fachad said:


> So I'd feel like I was wasting my time and money, and get impatient as they went over the basic things. Imagine hearing this in a Pakistani accent: is it plugged in?, have you rebooted?, did you re-seat the memory? ok, click the start button...that's on the bottom of your screen, on the left, ok...now click the settings, button...(you get the idea).



Don't look at a counselor as someone who is going to understand you and solve your "problem" - they won't, no matter who they are. Instead think of them as a (hopefully) neutral sounding board for both your concerns, a moderator who will allow you, if you're brave, to say exactly what you're thinking so you can both work it out together.


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## Renaissance Woman (Jan 22, 2008)

I believe we're all hard-wired for what we find sexually attractive, be it tall, short, blonde, brunette, dark skin, light skin, fat, thin, or whatever other variation you want to throw in there. There seems to be an attitude, however, that if a spouse has a major physical change that is the opposite of what their partner finds attractive, the partner is "supposed" to be fine with it and be able to look past the physical to find the inner beauty, etc., etc. For a loving friendship, which is part of marriage, sure. I can buy that. But the physical attraction? You can't force that. Inner beauty does not equal sexual attraction.

Fachad, you're not a bad person for not being able to force what you find attractive. If sexual attraction was truly a choice, then we could all be straight, or bisexual, or sleep with only our friends, or whatever else would seemingly be easier. Your wife is fundamentally changing her appearance. Doesn't mean that you will love her any less, but you can't force yourself to suddenly be attracted to a body type that doesn't do it for you. That is part of the consequences of her WLS decision and seems to be more a reflection on her than you.


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## DisenchantedDreamer (Jan 22, 2008)

I, too, have been a longtime lurker. So let me start by officially saying hello. My name is Matt and I am also an FA. I have been on the OP's of the spectrum, as I dated someone who had decided to have WLS and I was bothered in the same respects that the OP is. Obviously, his feelings are far greater than mine, due to their extended time together and all the emotions and memories that go along with it. I skimmed over the responses and they are similar to what I encountered when I posted a few years ago. There are posts about selfishness, those who support his feelings, etc. I think what it comes down to plain and simply is love. Yes, the changes will be very difficult to deal with, but when you are in love, you roll with the punches in relationships.
What I have a problem with is the fact that fat is viewed so negatively, especially at this time of year. The biggest New Year's resolution each year? Lose weight. Yes, I know there are situations when it is necessary, but it doesn't solve all of society's problems. I have known people who are overweight who are still healthy and capable of all types of physical activities. I would imagine when your mobility is limited and you are in pain from the extra weight, that is time to start exploring weight loss options. 
I, too, do not understand why I feel the way I do about extra weight on women. I have actually brought it up in therapy in the past, but there really was no clear cut answer. At times, I feel that it is normal, especially when reading posts on this site. There are other times, however, that I feel like a deviant. I have watched episodes of the Biggest Loser and find myself very confused. How can these people be so thrilled at the thought of losing weight? I am the type of person that enjoys when other people are happy, so it is so odd for me to have difficulty with the contestants' happiness. I want to yell at the TV and let them know that they look fine. I think that we, as FAs, have recognized that there are places like Dimensions, where we feel that it is okay to be who we are and like what we like. Unfortunately, society as a whole does not agree and there are many women who do not understand our preferences. I have learned to recognize that just because all of the lovely ladies and gentlemen on this site understand me, that I cannot just go to the local Wal Mart or Eat N Park and assume that other large people know what I know and feel the way I do. I think that there are many, many women who would feel a lot more comfortable with themselves if they knew they were accepted. As they say, honesty is the best policy. And, if it is important to you, then by all means, express yourself of your preferences in the best way that you can. Yes, I may have gone off the subject a bit, but I've been meaning to get that out for awhile. 
In closing, I am sympathetic to the OP, but am also optimistic for him and his wife. My prayers go out to them in their situation.


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## stan_der_man (Jan 22, 2008)

fachad said:


> Just one quick thought for everyone who has suggested counseling. I seriously doubt the ability of a counselor to tease out what's really going on and offer anything useful.
> ...
> I'm not a mental health professional, but I do think that I (and the people here on this board) know much more about this - what it means, how it feels, how they deal with similar things - than any councilor would ever figure out. The possibilty of them missing the point and dwelling on the basics would be so frustrating.
> 
> ...



Fachad, often times the people who reject counseling are the ones that need it the most; so I've been told. I have found the "counselors" here at Dimensions to be quite helpful, albeit in a Willy Wonka sort of way (and the price is right...) Stick around, post more often, maybe even join the Clubhouse and get to know the folks around here better. I completely agree with you about counseling, anything outside of this place would probably be a waste of time and money.


Stan


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## op user (Jan 22, 2008)

I had a BBW (with a BMI of just over 40) that we did enjoy sex together. She was not very obese as far as I am concerned (meaning she could do everything she wanted) but she decided to have the operation as she was concerned about future health issues.

She has all the plus and minus of the operation but I don't find her that attractive any more. In fact I openly stated to her that if she had stay at her previous weight I would have her over much more often. 

hence the reason I favour alternate everywhere. 

op user


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## sweet&fat (Jan 22, 2008)

Oy. WTF. .........


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 22, 2008)

op user said:


> I had a BBW (with a BMI of just over 40) that we did enjoy sex together. She was not very obese as far as I am concerned (meaning she could do everything she wanted) but she decided to have the operation as she was concerned about future health issues.
> 
> She has all the plus and minus of the operation but I don't find her that attractive any more. In fact I openly stated to her that if she had stay at her previous weight I would have her over much more often.
> 
> ...



I hope that she summons up the self esteem to boot your ass to the curb.


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## Tad (Jan 22, 2008)

sweet&fat said:


> Oy. WTF. .........





TraciJo67 said:


> I hope that she summons up the self esteem to boot your ass to the curb.



OOf, yah, ditto on both of those comments :doh:


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## AnnMarie (Jan 22, 2008)

fa_man_stan said:


> The hardest thing about my wife
> 
> *snipped for space*
> 
> ...



Stan, I couldn't rep you, but thank you VERY much for sharing all of that. I know it can't be easy to share dark feelings and results of things, and I'm glad you have. 

As for your "good riddance"... that makes me horribly sad, as a confident, content fat woman. I hate to think of good, kind, participatory FAs hating the thing that makes so many of them our "Prince Charmings". No one is perfect, but nothing about you has made these things happen.... they just did. I hate that something someone else has chosen to do has made you feel further marginalized, to turn the other cheek on a preference that's so fundamental to who you are as a man.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 22, 2008)

op user said:


> **snipped stuff**



No one cares what a booty call thinks, and this thread is about FAR more than whether he wants to "get wit" his wife anymore.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 22, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> Stan, I couldn't rep you, but thank you VERY much for sharing all of that. I know it can't be easy to share dark feelings and results of things, and I'm glad you have.
> 
> As for your "good riddance"... that makes me horribly sad, as a confident, content fat woman. I hate to think of good, kind, participatory FAs hating the thing that makes so many of them our "Prince Charmings". No one is perfect, but nothing about you has made these things happen.... they just did. I hate that something someone else has chosen to do has made you feel further marginalized, to turn the other cheek on a preference that's so fundamental to who you are as a man.



Ditto what AM said. I don't think that I was clear enough in my initial response to you ... I very much appreciated what you had to say, and how clearly you conveyed your own feelings.


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## DisenchantedDreamer (Jan 22, 2008)

AnnMarie,

That was an excellent post. It even makes me feel more normal. I think what one of my biggest concerns is that we set ourselves up for failure in the belief that all bbws share that same "confident & content" feelings that you and other women here do. It just doesn't happen that often. Thanks for sharing, though.


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## love dubh (Jan 22, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> No one cares what a booty call thinks, and this thread is about FAR more than whether he wants to "get wit" his wife anymore.



Oh AnnMarie:wubu::wubu: you know how to push a girl's buttons.


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## Fascinita (Jan 22, 2008)

fachad said:


> Any ideas?



Maybe--and I'm just *theorizing* here--you are upset by the sudden decision to have surgery because it signals that whatever degree of control over your wife's body ("ownership" of your wife's body) you felt you had previously has now been decisively terminated.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 22, 2008)

fachad said:


> Her BP was very high that day- it has always run high at the drs b/c of "dr. office anxiety", but it was even higher that day. AND she had gained 10 lbs. even though she had been quite diligent in her eating choices.



How do you know that her high BP was always due to doctor anxiety? I could see it being explained away as an anomoly if she had a few high readings, on days that she felt particularly anxious. But you said that it has "always run high at the drs" ... this seems like a symptom of HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE to me, not a symptom of doctor anxiety. 

In my particular case, there was a very definite & marked increase in my blood pressure, with every visit to the doctor that corresponded with weight gain. Back in the late 90's, I had a few incidents of high BP that my doctor did dismiss as possible anxiety, because for the most part, the readings were well within normal ranges. But ... once they became consistently high ... and then higher with each period of weight gain ... they stopped talking about anxiety and started discussing plans for me to bring my BP under control. And, even on medication, it was still in the 130's/high 80's. I'm fortunate in that my BP is now consistently on the low end of normal. I do know that many people who had WLS aren't as lucky ... some never notice any difference at all, even as they are losing weight. 

I do wish your wife luck and hope that she does well post-operatively.


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> No one cares what a booty call thinks, and this thread is about FAR more than whether he wants to "get wit" his wife anymore.



Thanks again, AnnMarie. I tried to make that so very clear. It's not just about sex and it's not about getting her to change her mind (too late anyway) or behave differently. 

It's about me understanding why this is so devastating to me, and helping her understand that too so that she knows me better, and so she can react with compassion rather than bewilderment or anger when she sees me feeling sad.

It is an attempt to fish for possible reasons beyond sex, beyond worries about change, and beyond insecurity about her leaving (Those are legitimate concerns for some people, but as smug as it sounds, I don't believe I have any reason to worry about those things. Really.) 

And THAT's why it's so bewildering about this for me, because despite my confidence about those basic, "everyone has this" WLS concerns, I'm still feeling emotionally devastated, shocked, angry, sad, etc.

And I want to hear from others who have gone thru this, or any kind of massive, lasting weight loss in a partner. I'd like to know how they got thru it, how things are now, if they saw it coming, if it got worse when the weight started dropping and the results became more and more dramatic, how their partner (the weight loser) reacted to their emotions, etc.

Well, with all that being said, it's true that I'd ALSO like to know how it affected sex. Cause that is kind of a big deal to me, for whatever reason. I think I'm a nice man and all, but still, ya know, men in general do sort of care quite a bit about that stuff...


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## fachad (Jan 22, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> How do you know that her high BP was always due to doctor anxiety? I could see it being explained away as an anomoly if she had a few high readings, on days that she felt particularly anxious. But you said that it has "always run high at the drs" ... this seems like a symptom of HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE to me, not a symptom of doctor anxiety.



Well, we both knew that it was both high and higher b/c of dr. office anxiety. We knew b/c every reading at the dr. office, taken at later and later time intervals, was lower. And we know that at home it was consistently lower - still high end of normal - but closer to the later readings at the dr. office.

I almost didnt mention ANY concrete health factors in the OP, b/c I was afraid people here would either abruptly dismiss them - as in "you don't KNOW that x was caused by weight" or "even thin people get x, you know" etc. OR they would flame me, as in, "you inconsiderate bastard, don't you realize she could DIE from x!". 

And the whole idea of this thread was not to solicit health care facts and advice, in either direction. It was to vent and to try to find out what others might think are factors in making this such an emotionally difficult situation, and to hear how others have experienced it and dealt with it.

Your posts have been very helpful in that regard. Thanks.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 22, 2008)

fachad said:


> ...Cause that is kind of a big deal to me, for whatever reason. I think I'm a nice man and all, but still, ya know, men in general do sort of care quite a bit about that stuff...



Yeah. 

Not just men, chad. Not just men.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm confused about something. How is this any different than people divorcing stating Irreconcilable differences? When major changes happen in people sometimes their partners can't handle it - it doesn't make them bad people it makes them human. If I dropped 200 lbs not only would I be a completely different person physically but also emotionally. If Wayne could not handle who I became I'm not sure that's anyones fault. I would like to think we would both love each other no matter what - but there are so many extenuating circumstances that could happen in the course of a marriage I'm surprised anyone stays married. 

Losing a large amount of weight is a major upheaval in any relationship, if counseling doesn't help sometimes people have to go their seperate ways - for the good of everyone.


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## stan_der_man (Jan 22, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> ...
> As for your "good riddance"... that makes me horribly sad,
> ...


AnnMarie, my early morning posts sometimes get a bit mellow dramatic... :doh: I don't think I've gotten to the point of "good riddance" as far as my inner FA goes, but I do miss him sometimes.

Also, I didn't mean to infer that you (Fachad) are a pervert or anything... just using that for emphasis.




Thanks for all the reps and thoughts which I received...


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 23, 2008)

> It's hard to swallow, because she holds all the power, and I am just forced - strong armed - into going with whatever she decides. It is a "she gets 100%, I get 0% outcome". In normal circumstances, that would be unacceptable to anyone with any measure of self-respect. So I have to work and try hard to see how this is different, because I don't want to feel like one of those people who is totally without self-worth and who just "takes whatever they get and likes it". I know this situation is different, but it sure FEELS that way.



Just an observation about what compromise means. It really jumps out at me that you've repeatedly used this phrase, that she gets 100% of what she wants and you get nothing.

I have to agree with Mossystate that it's not truly possible to compromise in a "written in stone" way about something as personal as one's body size. It's just such a personal thing, and as you've said, she's the one who carries it. She's the one who walks by stores in the shopping malls and knows she can't buy any clothes, she's the one with high blood pressure, she's the one who "feels" her weight when she walks up a flight of stairs or wedges herself into an airline seat.

But about compromise. A close relative of mine who's been happily married for many years after 2 shorter and very unhappy marriages has said about compromise "If I'm cold, and you're hot, we don't agree to open the window halfway." Or from another perspective, if I want to go rock climbing and you want to go to the opera, we don't just pick a third choice, because the ultimate outcome is that *nobody is getting what he or she wants.* I think that's what happened in your attempt to compromise on your wife's size: She wasn't fat enough to satisfy your sexual urges and she wasn't thin enough to shop in regular clothing store. In essence what you did is agreed that neither of you would be happy. 

Compromise is not always about meeting halfway. It's been said if you try to walk the middle of the road you get run over.

So what you have now is a real compromise. One of you is happy and the other isn't. But that's part of any relationship, no different from the above example in which I'd go to the opera and shut up about it because I knew it was what you wanted to do.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 23, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> So what you have now is a real compromise. One of you is happy and the other isn't. But that's part of any relationship, no different from the above example in which I'd go to the opera and shut up about it because I knew it was what you wanted to do.



This is a really sad compromise  In fact, I don't think that's a compromise at all, LovesBHMS ... but I understand what you are saying, and I absolutely agree with you. On second go-round with this thread, I find myself growing impatient.

When I had surgery, I didn't know that my husband wouldn't be thrilled with my smaller body. We didn't talk about it. We were both focused on other goals (primary one being, having a child). When I met him, I was very small, and we had a very active & enjoyable sex life. I had no reason to think that he wouldn't like me to be small again, although I frankly hadn't considered it. Really, I was just tired of carrying around an extra 140 pounds ... physically and emotionally. From my perspective, losing the weight was essential. I should mention though, that to my husband, my "ideal" weight is around 200 pounds. More than that is too big, less is too small. Obviously, he's lived with both extremes. But in terms of preferences, his are somewhat narrow. 

I don't want to be 200 pounds again, and I cannot gain that weight just to please him. That would crush my spirit. Fortunately, my husband can live with that decision, because he loves me and he wants me to be happy. And, judging by his enthusiastic reaction to *my* renewed sex drive, he's not just "settling", either.

So, on the one hand, there is my need to feel healthy, active and fit. *I* live in this body, not him. And from his perspective, there is the reality that he's more attracted to soft curves and a rounded tummy and fleshy thighs. Which is more important? I'll put it this way: He's entitled to his preference, but If he REQUIRED that I gain weight in order to continue the relationship, I'd leave him. And I'd take our son, along with an enormous chunk of our shared assets. One day, he might have to live with the knowledge that another man is living in his home, sharing a life with his son. My requirements are that he love me as I am, even if he'd *prefer* me bigger, and that he acknowledge that his physical preference should never even come close to trumping my health and well-being. 

So, I have to admit, I get a little uptight and impatient with the "my wife lost weight and now things have changed and I'm not as attracted to her and what should I do?!?!" Because, to me, it feels like that man is putting a preference above the fact that his wife LIVES IN HER BODY AND HE DOESN'T. He doesn't own her body. Some men will qualify their positions by stating that realistically, they know they can't have what they want .... they are just venting, etc. And on the other side of the spectrum, there are women who tell them just what they want to hear: It's OK to feel this way, and it's OK to not be as attracted to your wife anymore and to eventually leave her. I can just imagine someone saying that to my husband, and how appalled and horrified I'd feel. Because to me, it's NOT OK. People who are dating or in casual relationships get to opt out if things aren't working. People who commit to a marriage, and ESPECIALLY those who have children together, have made a vow to be there for each other "for better or worse... in sickness and in health." 

Lots of men have to live with the reality that their wives had cancerous breasts removed. Yeah, it's rough ... but nobody would suggest that these men should feel OK with leaving a wife they are no longer as attracted to. Professionals would advise these men to acknowledge their feelings of grief and loss, and learn how to live with a new reality. Most would call men who cannot do that shallow and extremely selfish. Their wives are who they always were ... minus a body part. Why is the advise given in a weight loss situation any different? 

I know... some will say that WLS is "cosmetic" or "elective". God forbid, we acknowledge that for some people, excess weight is truly damaging, physically and emotionally.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 23, 2008)

Maybe compromise is the wrong word, maybe it's more of an agreement really. 

There are some things on which you can't compromise such as having children, you can't have half a child. If one partner wants three kids and the other doesn't want children, it's not a compromise to have one child, because the addition of even one child to one's life is going to change all the things that the previously child free by choice person did not want changed.

While there is obviously a continuum when it comes to size, (as in Traci's example, weighing 200 pounds is obviously different from weighing 250 pounds) most people know at what weight they're going to feel comfortable. And like it or not, doctors may have a preferred weight for a patient at which they believe a patient will have optimal health.

What hits me though, about the OP is the depth of anger and sadness he's encountering over this. To not have a single moment without grief in a month, to be unable to think good thoughts, are extreme indications of misery. 

I do applaud him for attempting to focus on his own feelings rather than on what his wife has "done to him." And hopefully he'll be able to work through what seems like some *very* deep anger over the idea that she's "getting something she wants when he's NOT getting what he wants." Truthfully this is what seems to be the real issue with the OP, the idea that his wife has done something that upsets him and now she's happy and he's not.


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## liz (di-va) (Jan 23, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> As for your "good riddance"... that makes me horribly sad, as a confident, content fat woman. I hate to think of good, kind, participatory FAs hating the thing that makes so many of them our "Prince Charmings". No one is perfect, but nothing about you has made these things happen.... they just did. I hate that something someone else has chosen to do has made you feel further marginalized, to turn the other cheek on a preference that's so fundamental to who you are as a man.



I had the same reaction, although I didn't know what to say...still don't quite. Breaks my heart.

I have a lot of reactions to all this! I really feel for the OP. I'd say the dilemma is really clear....sigh. Not that that makes it any easier to navigate or resolved. Just clear.

For what it's worth, *knowing* what the dilemma is, and seeing it well-articulated by others, really isn't the same as hashing it out when you're feeling feelings. Therapy's not exactly about knowing better, it's more about...getting you where you gotta be. You're the one that's gotta figure that out, you and she. So I'd throw my vote in with that, with a good therapist who understands some of the issues here.

I (my opinion only) have incredibly strong feelings about WLS...it's hard for me to imagine ever countenancing it in a million years. But...I guess you never *quite* know, eh. Same as other things in marriage. Things change. The X factor I am incredibly aware of in the whole size-acceptance paradigm these days is Aging. Nothing stays the same. Women's bodies, men's bodies.

But what an extreme thing to deal with, I've thought this any time WLS and primary relationships come up. It's a weird modern life situation. And I'm not sure it's all reconcilable, as Stan says--although I really don't know from that side--and as RW said, in a diff way. Good intentions and all...I'm not sure the outcome to anything concerning this is guaranteed. [This is seriously unrelated, but I know someone who left his wife of over 45 years recently...it has made me newly aware that this stuff is just not a given.]

All I can say is it makes me sad/little scared, esp as a single fat chick... Maybe that's not a cool thing to say, but what can I say, it's a (generalized) reaction I have. I'm not saying I know any better, nor am I idealizing other people's relationships, I'm just sayin....life. Blimey.

Best of luck to OP and those navigating this situation.


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## James (Jan 23, 2008)

op user said:


> I had a BBW (with a BMI of just over 40) that we did enjoy sex together. She was not very obese as far as I am concerned (meaning she could do everything she wanted) but she decided to have the operation as she was concerned about future health issues.
> 
> She has all the plus and minus of the operation but I don't find her that attractive any more. In fact I openly stated to her that if she had stay at her previous weight I would have her over much more often.
> 
> ...


 

you are everything thats depressing about shallow, objectifying, relationship-phobic, statistic-obsessed FA stereotypes...


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## imfree (Jan 23, 2008)

fa_man_stan said:


> The hardest thing about my wife getting WLS is that I felt it was yet another insult to my preference for being attracted to fat women, one of many insults Ive endured my entire life. I never wanted to be attracted to something that a woman hated about herself. This was just one more thing reinforcing what a pervert I am for being attracted to fat women, a condition they themselves dont like. I had no problem with my wife making a decision like this about her body; she is the one who ultimately pays the price for decisions about her health. ..........snipped........I didnt know those times were so horrible for her. Sometimes I wish the FA inside of me would just go away and die. Maybe it already has good riddance.
> 
> Having the weight being gone from your wifes body is only a fraction of what you are going to go through Fachad, only a fraction.
> 
> ...



You're da man, Stan!!! You love your wife and prioritize 
her well-being above your FA-dom. Yours is the
example to follow.


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## Jes (Jan 23, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> Just an observation about what compromise means. It really jumps out at me that you've repeatedly used this phrase, that she gets 100% of what she wants and you get nothing.
> .



Perhaps it's a half the marriage is one way, and the other half is another way. By which I mean: maybe she compromised more in the beginning. You did say that she knew your preferred weight limits and you negotiated that and perhaps it was more than she wanted all along. I'm not saying your'e the bad guy, but I'm wondering if that's true. If she wanted to be thinner longer ago than you realize, but she knew you preferred she be heavier. So you got your ...15 (?) years of her at a heavier weight than she preferred, and now, she gets her however-many-years at a weight she prefers? Does that thought make it any more palatable for you, any less threatening to you? To see it as a fairness thing?

ETA: i read Loves post on this (after I posted) and basically, I'm seconding her thoughts. Very well written.
And I still say therapy isn't something to be written off just b/c we think someone doesn't understand fatness issues. C'mon. If we want to say that fatness is normal and mainstream and not a fetish and just like everything else, then we need to mean that. A therapist with a degree not off a boxtop can deal with feelings of rejection and sorrow in a marriage. It's job security, baby!I would argue that continued feelings of rejection/isolation would harm a marriage just as much as, if not more than, WLS.


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## op user (Jan 23, 2008)

TraciJo67,
Pure food for thought your comment. What is funny about me and her is that we talk each day we like to be around each other but I am just not attracted to her anymore in a sexual sense.

Thanks again for the wake up call bow

op user


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 23, 2008)

op user said:


> TraciJo67,
> Pure food for thought your comment. What is funny about me and her is that we talk each day we like to be around each other but I am just not attracted to her anymore in a sexual sense.
> 
> Thanks again for the wake up call bow
> ...



Hopefully with time she'll get over that.


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## fachad (Jan 23, 2008)

I want to thank everyone so much for the responses to my post. 

I know it's not over yet - it's only just begun - but I have felt so much better in the past few days. And a HUGE part of that is due to the help I have received from everyone here. Every response - and I mean EVERY response has been helpful in some way or other. 

Some have been sympathetic, some have been insightful, and some have been negative. Everyone loves getting sympathy and gaining insight, but even the negative responses have helped my in a way I never imagined.

The insights I have gained into what it is that is bothering me so much have allowed me to begin to work my way out of thinking in those ways. And some of the negative responses have spurred me to decisively refute distorted negative thoughts, which I bought into when they were coming from me, but which I saw thru and refused to accept when they were coming from somebody else.

I hope this thread keeps active for a while, because even thought there is already a goldmine of insight here, and I've started to feel better, I know that I have a way to go and that this is a vast topic that is bound to affect many people here in one way or another at some time in their lives. And this topic has more angles than you can shake a stick at.

There are so very many posts that I want to respond to - both to thank people for their insight and support, and to ask them to clarify things, and to let them know exactly how I've been helped by what they said. But there are so many and I've only got so much time in a day...If you've posted, please check back once in a while over the coming days and weeks because I do want to respond to many, many posts.


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## gangstadawg (Jan 23, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> I believe we're all hard-wired for what we find sexually attractive, be it tall, short, blonde, brunette, dark skin, light skin, fat, thin, or whatever other variation you want to throw in there. There seems to be an attitude, however, that if a spouse has a major physical change that is the opposite of what their partner finds attractive, the partner is "supposed" to be fine with it and be able to look past the physical to find the inner beauty, etc., etc. For a loving friendship, which is part of marriage, sure. I can buy that. But the physical attraction? You can't force that. Inner beauty does not equal sexual attraction.
> 
> Fachad, you're not a bad person for not being able to force what you find attractive. If sexual attraction was truly a choice, then we could all be straight, or bisexual, or sleep with only our friends, or whatever else would seemingly be easier. Your wife is fundamentally changing her appearance. Doesn't mean that you will love her any less, but you can't force yourself to suddenly be attracted to a body type that doesn't do it for you. That is part of the consequences of her WLS decision and seems to be more a reflection on her than you.


gotta co-sign this.


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## fachad (Jan 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> Just an observation about what compromise means. It really jumps out at me that you've repeatedly used this phrase, that she gets 100% of what she wants and you get nothing...
> 
> But about compromise. A close relative of mine who's been happily married for many years after 2 shorter and very unhappy marriages has said about compromise "If I'm cold, and you're hot, we don't agree to open the window halfway." Or from another perspective, if I want to go rock climbing and you want to go to the opera, we don't just pick a third choice, because the ultimate outcome is that *nobody is getting what he or she wants.* I think that's what happened in your attempt to compromise on your wife's size: She wasn't fat enough to satisfy your sexual urges and she wasn't thin enough to shop in regular clothing store. In essence what you did is agreed that neither of you would be happy.
> 
> ...



Ack! Ouch!!!!

Ok, LOVEBHMS, you get the prize for most insightful answer on the root of the pain. I won't say you found THE root - as if there were only ONE - but I think you have, with tremendous insight, found a very deep root and the one that is most impinging on a raw nerve.

What you said about compromise is very true and I do realize exactly what you're talking about. In most situations between two people that require compromise, it means one person gets what they want and the other person does not. As you said, you have to either go to the opera OR go rock climbing.

Ill work a bit with your rock climbing/opera analogy. Now in this analogy rock climbing represents me getting my way in matters and her compromising for my sake. And going to the opera represents her getting her way in matters and me compromising.

AND HERE'S THE RUB: For the duration of our relationship, we have been going to the opera every nearly weekend, and never going rock climbing, not even on the weekends when we miss the opera. I think I've forgotten how to rock climb, or even how to ask how to go rock climbing. And she's forgotten that I even like to rock climb, because we've been going to the opera every weekend for so long. 

Im the kind of person who would rather please the other person rather than insist on my way. I was that way with other people long before I ever met her. And long before she met me, she was the sort of person used to getting things her way. You could say we have interlocking, complementary personality traits. Over the years, Ive loved spoiling her, I mean really loved it, even though I do sort of miss rock climbing. But Ive never missed it so much that I choose to do it rather than going to the opera with her. And not just because of the snacks at the opera. Because I WANTED to take her, I WANTED her to be happy and enjoy herself.

Besides, I dont even feel like Im missing out on anything, because when were at the opera, her tummy spills over onto my seat, and I touch it, and I get all warm and fuzzy and tingly all over, and I completely forget all about rock climbing. And although she knows this instinctively, Ive also told her it explicitly thousands of times. I've come right out and said - many times, in nearly these exact words - "you can have EVERYTHING your way, ALL the time and all I ask is please don't ever get thin". And she responded by saying, THAT will NEVER happen"; and "it's impossible"; and "dear, you have NOTHING to worry about." So there was two-way complicity in this questionable arrangement.

Of course I know that I should never have lived in this way  it that indicates a problem with me. But I also think she might have - especially when hearing me say it explicitly said something like, hey, wait a minute, maybe I should go rock climbing with you once in a while, or at least encourage you to go with buddies or by yourself. Its not right for me to expect you to keep coming to the opera every weekend". But, alas, I think shes forgotten that I was ever into rock climbing. But who would object when everything is going their way? To ask for that would be like asking an FA to help his wife lose weight when shes not complaining at all about it, and there are no visible signs of any problems from it! Fat chance  its just too seductive for either party to keep letting things go your way (weigh).

This has been going on for close to two decades  it has come to be seen as the way things are and how things work with us. And weve both been pretty happy with things and felt quite lucky with how things worked out. At this point in our lives, weve been going to the opera for so long it seems like thats just what we do, and how we do things. In her eyes, I would have to be some kind of jerk to upset that balance at any time. But to do it right now, that would seem like I'm trying to "get back" at her. Shed be left wondering, why did you change...why cant things just be how they used to...weve been so happy for so long...are you just doing this to punish me?. And shed feel hurt or angry or both.

It's my fault for investing too much in this; it's also her fault for not seeing the lack of give and take and taking steps to remedy it. Who can blame her, though who doesnt want to have someone who does everything you want? Not many people would be strong enough to resist that, especially if it seemed to come naturally to the other person (it does come naturally to me)

So all that talk about now she gets 100% and I get 0% is not just hyperbole. It DOES actually feel like she's getting 100% - because she was ALREADY getting 99% and I was sitting there just with my 1%, and LOVING it, because to me that particular 1% was worth more that the other 99% combined. But now that she has THAT too, whats left for me?

This SEEMED like a sort of implicit quid pro quo that ran for nearly 20 years. But the thing is, it was NEVER REALLY was a quid pro quo. It was more like, Ill give you everything you want and do things your way because I love you... but PLEASE dont ever lose weight, cause thats my Achilles heel and it would crush me. But it seemed to both of us like a quid pro quo...until she got the WLS. Now it's painfully obvious to both of us that there was never any real threat of my leaving or of me insisting on having things my way after all. It was just, Ill do anything for you with a wish (not a condition) attached.

And there's the reason for the "100% - 0%" talk, the resentment, and the vulnerable feeling I now have that she can get away with ANYTHING  and she knows it, and she knows that I know it, and she knows that I know that she knows it.


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## imfree (Jan 24, 2008)

imfree said:


> You're da man, Stan!!! You love your wife and prioritize
> her well-being above your FA-dom. Yours is the
> example to follow.



There is nothing wrong with Fat Admiration.
EVERYTHING is wrong with fat obsession.


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

Sorry to tramp all over with yet another view, but try this.

In a relationship we make compromises all the time. We do things we might not otherwise do because we want the other person to appreciate us, to find us attractive, and just because we want to please them.

The sudden decision made by Stan's wife is not just an issue of changing the compromise, although it is, or of his finding her less attractive, although he might. 

The primary issue is that he feels threatened by the fact that the desire to be attractive to him and to please him has been reduced in comparison to other factors. His anxiety is that in his deepest heart of hearts he suspects that more changes are coming. He has real concern (although he denies it) that the lower priority for being attractive to him is only the first step in his becoming less important overall.

Further, he can't give credence to her assurances that he is still important and loved, because she made her decision without discussion, abruptly and without forewarning, so he knows in his heart that if more changes are coming she will not be warning him of those either.

What a miserable, painful, unsure position to be in.


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## fachad (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Sorry to tramp all over with yet another view, but try this.
> 
> In a relationship we make compromises all the time. We do things we might not otherwise do because we want the other person to appreciate us, to find us attractive, and just because we want to please them.
> 
> ...



Gawd, I think you are right about that. 

Some have said this thing invalidates my world view, which is true, but I have know in my heart that the thing which is the most hurtful is that her desire to look better (which is the real MOTIVE behind it - her medical concerns may be 100% legitimate - that is not the reason she WANTS it - nobody WANTS a mastectomy or a by-pass, they are FORCED to have one) - what is most hurtful is that her desire to look better to the general public, contrasted to her minimal concern about being less attractive to me - feels like a slight. Like I am less important than other people. 

I know that when she looks at her thinner self in the mirror, she is going to be happy - NOT because her BP is lower, but because she thinks she looks better to "other people (besides her husband). I feel like I'm taking a back seat to the rest of world, that that she wants to please strangers in the mall is more than she wants to please me, and that how she looks to the people in the grocery store is more important than how she looks to me. And that part IS true, even though the all health aspects may be 100% valid and true. And that does not make a person feel very important or valued.

And you are right about the blindsided/rammed-thru quick aspect of it. It does make things that formerly felt stable and secure seem subject to sudden, dramatic, unannounced change. Like the ANYTHING could happen at ANY TIME, without ANY WARNING. And that is not a secure feeling. I think that has what has been driving the restlessness and relentlessness of the feelings.

Very harsh things to face, but it does explain the feelings Ive had of somehow being put-down by the weight loss (even though Im not one of those evil pseudo-FAs who feels good BECAUSE his BBW feels bad) and it also explains the feelings of insecurity and vague anxiety, even though our marriage has been very stable.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Sorry to tramp all over with yet another view, but try this.
> 
> In a relationship we make compromises all the time. We do things we might not otherwise do because we want the other person to appreciate us, to find us attractive, and just because we want to please them.
> 
> ...



Why are you trying to speak for people? Are you some kind of know-it-all or something? The person you presume to speak about, as if he were some kind of an alter ego of yours, doesn't strike me as particularly miserable. How is it any of your business, or ours for that matter, what really goes on in people's heads? With all due respect, why not put a sock in it?


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## Tad (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> I know that when she looks at her thinner self in the mirror, she is going to be happy - NOT because her BP is lower, but because she thinks she looks better to "other people (besides her husband). I feel like I'm taking a back seat to the rest of world, that that she wants to please strangers in the mall is more than she wants to please me, and that how she looks to the people in the grocery store is more important than how she looks to me.



Remember that one of those 'other people' is likely herself. It sounds like maybe she's never viewed herself as attractive while fat, at a fundamental level. 

It is like....I can accept how I look, being mostly bald. But I'll always think I looked better with hair. If there was some reasonably process that gave me a full head of hair again, and I went through with it, it would be more about how I feel about how I look than about how others felt.

And no, baldness is not like being fat, just giving an example of for own opinion on looks versus other's opinions.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> Very harsh things to face, but it does explain the feelings I’ve had of somehow being put-down by the weight loss (even though I’m not one of those evil pseudo-FAs who feels good BECAUSE his BBW feels bad) and it also explains the feelings of insecurity and vague anxiety, even though our marriage has been very stable.




You know fachad, I guess it seems to me it's out of your hands at the moment. I sympathize that you're feeling anxious. I've been through anxious moments, as we all must sooner or later. I don't sympathize with your position, as I don't see how you can legitimately expect that you're entitled to control your wife's body. But I do empathize with your angst as angst.

And all I can say is that it will pass, as anxiety always does (not talking about people with anxiety disorders, obviously.) It will pass and you will feel better and your marriage will begin feeling less unstable again. Or the crisis will worsen and come to a head and then eventually that will pass.

Everything passes.

Good luck.


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

Read his reply Fascinita

Why are you so irate? Hit to close to home for you?

And now the second point, there is not one place in his posts, or in mine that suggested that he had the right to control her body. You own that, not him or me. I was able to put myself in his place and understand, and it is not what she did so much as how she did it. And that has nothing to do with control of anyone. It does however have to do with trust, consideration, and security in a relationship.

Everything isn't about men controlling women and women aren't the only ones entitled to feelings.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 24, 2008)

> I know that when she looks at her thinner self in the mirror, she is going to be happy - NOT because her BP is lower, but because she thinks she looks better to "other people (besides her husband).



I think you need to stop that sentence after the word "happy."

I've said, and you said SHE said, this is not about you. It's not about your hierarchy in her world. It's not about your tastes or preferences. You are interpreting her desire to look better and to be more mainstream as meaning to "not wanting to look the way you want her to."

This is oversimplified, but we often site the conventional wisdom that women are judged by looks and men by accomplishments. Suppose you received a job offer for a very high paying job. If you accepted the job, you'd be able to pay for a round the world cruise, fancy clothes, and new jewelry for her. She'd love to have those things, BUT the job would be doing something you didn't like. Now let's say you don't take it; you'd LOVE to be able to take her on that cruise or buy her a pricey designer handbag, but the job would make you unhappy. Does she have the right to say "He doesn't care about what I want. If he did, he'd take that job. He clearly does not care about what's important to me."

Also Chad, take a spin around some posts on here in which women talk about the trevails of being fat. Check out the Clothing/Fashion board and read about the frustrations of not being able to find certain clothes in their sizes. Read a thread about how miserable some women were in high school when they were ridiculed or bullied for being fat. I think you need a better understanding of what it's like to live in, not just look at, her body.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Read his reply Fascinita
> 
> Why are you so irate? Hit to close to home for you?
> 
> ...



I don't care what you have to say about what I'm entitled to think or not. I'll take your opinion or leave it. I'll get angry when I want. And I don't have to explain to you why. Any functioning adult realizes that. Sorry I have to be the one to point this out.

As for what fachad said in response to you, that is his business. Frankly, I'm not interested in your opinion of his opinion, or of my opinion, or of anyone else's opinion.

I will repeat the gist of what I said before: I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to speak for other people. By all means, *feel free to state your own opinions* (I will continue to feel free to disregard them) without having to make them sound as if they are coming straight from the heads of others. That is all.


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## Jes (Jan 24, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> Why are you trying to speak for people? Are you some kind of know-it-all or something? The person you presume to speak about, as if he were some kind of an alter ego of yours, doesn't strike me as particularly miserable. How is it any of your business, or ours for that matter, what really goes on in people's heads? With all due respect, why not put a sock in it?



i actually thought the comments were pretty on target and i'm glad someone finally voiced them. 

again, to the OP: can you frame this as your wife wanting to look in the mirror and look better to HERSELF? Don't put yourself into some competition with her, or with all of the people at the grocery store or in the world. She's not married to the people at the store, nor are you. She's picked herself over you, but not the grocery store shoppers and strangers over you. I think this sense of fear really IS what's driving this, and I get that. Believe me, I do. maybe you can turn it to your advantage. She trusts you enough to do what she wants to do and know you'll still love her. She trusts your marriage enough to know she can alter herself in a way she wants to, and she feels sure the love you share will stay strong. You've said those things to us already, in an early (or the first?) post. Do you believe them? If not, then that's what you need to focus on, and not a surgery (that she's already had. I mean, that ship has sailed).


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## Tad (Jan 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> This is oversimplified, but we often site the conventional wisdom that women are judged by looks and men by accomplishments. Suppose you received a job offer for a very high paying job. If you accepted the job, you'd be able to pay for a round the world cruise, fancy clothes, and new jewelry for her. She'd love to have those things, BUT the job would be doing something you didn't like. Now let's say you don't take it; you'd LOVE to be able to take her on that cruise or buy her a pricey designer handbag, but the job would make you unhappy. Does she have the right to say "He doesn't care about what I want. If he did, he'd take that job. He clearly does not care about what's important to me."



I agree with your general point, but to be fair, the proper analogy would be more that he decided he did not like what he was doing now, came home one day and announced that he was quitting, and was going to start work helping children with learning disabilities, at barely above minimum wage.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

Jes said:


> i actually thought the comments were pretty on target and i'm glad someone finally voiced them.



Jes, I wouldn't want anyone here taking something I wrote and reinterpreting it in their words and tacking my name on it, and then the upshot is that "Fascinita must lead a miserable life," when I've never said that. Because that is what nottobig did, using another poster's name. Let him state it as his own opinion.

I thought you were for not pathologizing people?

That's where I'm coming from.


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## Jes (Jan 24, 2008)

well, i'm not saying the manner in which the message was delivered was necessarily appropriate and certainly, no one can diagnose anyone on the internet, but i stand by what i said: i think that this message really hits at the heart of the issue the OP is having and that he feels threatened, deeply invalidated and threatened, and I'm glad someone just came out and threw the idea on the table. I personally think he's right, so of course I'm glad he said it. Whether I like the terminology used is another issue and one I'm not addressing.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

Jes said:


> well, i'm not saying the manner in which the message was delivered was necessarily appropriate and certainly, no one can diagnose anyone on the internet, but i stand by what i said: i think that this message really hits at the heart of the issue the OP is having and that he feels threatened, deeply invalidated and threatened, and I'm glad someone just came out and threw the idea on the table. I personally think he's right, so of course I'm glad he said it. Whether I like the terminology used is another issue and one I'm not addressing.



Good enough!


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> Gawd, I think you are right about that.
> 
> Some have said this thing invalidates my world view, which is true, but I have know in my heart that the thing which is the most hurtful is that her desire to look better (which is the real MOTIVE behind it - her medical concerns may be 100% legitimate - that is not the reason she WANTS it - nobody WANTS a mastectomy or a by-pass, they are FORCED to have one) - *what is most hurtful is that her desire to look better to the general public*, contrasted to her minimal concern about being less attractive to me - feels like a slight. Like I am less important than other people.
> 
> ...



fachad, how sure are you that this is REALLY how your wife feels? Some of what you've written seems ridiculous. Who would go through a major operation, one with extremely painful & uncomfortable side effects, so that they can look more acceptable to strangers in the supermarket? That's an incredible thing to say, and to project onto your wife. 

I've gone to my share of WLS "support" group meetings, and yawned through many vapid accounts of how "people are nicer to me now! Golly gee, my life is FANTASTIC!" ... but even the shallowest of the lot rejoiced far more in restored mobility & freedom from other serious and/or crippling health conditions & yes, even the ready availability of cute, cheap clothing (hey, we're WOMEN) than in how good they looked. And the truth is, not many of us escape the inevitable march of time, far less the reality of what rapid weight loss does to our bodies. I can remember listening to an older woman gush on and on about how much better she looks, sans 100 pounds, and I was ... incredulous. She was skeletal, with a great deal of loose skin all over her body, which gave her a very lumpy appearance. Her hair was thin & limp, she was bald in places, her face was gaunt and deeply wrinkled. I can remember thinking that a year ago, she was probably a very pleasant-looking woman, with round apple cheeks and a gleam in her eyes (not to mention, wrinkle-free skin). Beauty, eye of beholder, blah blah. 

If your wife truly had surgery because she thinks that she'll look better ... she's very likely in for disappointment. No doubt, the surgeon would have explained to her that she'll lose a lot of hair, what remains will become dry and brittle, and she'll have to live with folds of loose skin and surgery scars. She will look better, to the general fat-phobic public, when she pours her skin into clothes. She will NOT look better when she stands naked, in front of the mirror, with only herself as an audience. For the small percentage among us who think that the opinions of strangers matter more than how we view ourselves, that may be some consolation. However, most of us live in the *real* world, where the opinions of the people that we love and respect (including our own) matters far more.

I see a lot of ownership & control issues in what you are writing, despite your assertion to the contrary.


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

Fascinita, I am deeply saddened and hurt that you were unable to take my original post as the helpful attempt to explain how I understood his feelings to be. I thought, and still think, he was being criticized for some very normal feelings. I try to understand others, by putting myself in their place and listening to the undertone of what they say.

I did not indicate you were not entitled to have and express your opinion, rather you attacked my right to do the same and began to attack. 

I believe you started with "Why are you trying to speak for people? Are you some kind of know-it-all or something?". Followed immediately by your opinion "The person you presume to speak about, as if he were some kind of an alter ego of yours, doesn't strike me as particularly miserable."

His response was (and I am glad I understood him correctly, and perhaps helped) "Gawd, I think you are right about that." 

You immediately provided your guidance that I think amounts to "get over it". (your actual text here - "You know fachad, I guess it seems to me it's out of your hands at the moment ... And all I can say is that it will pass, as anxiety always does")

So you proceed to insinuate I am not an adult. ("I don't care what you have to say about what I'm entitled to think or not. I'll take your opinion or leave it. I'll get angry when I want. And I don't have to explain to you why. Any functioning adult realizes that. Sorry I have to be the one to point this out.") although I never did any of the things you accuse me of in that diatribe.

Inform me you don't care about my opinion. ("Frankly, I'm not interested in your opinion of his opinion, or of my opinion, or of anyone else's opinion.") So my question would be, why should we care about yours? I thought the purpose of this was to exchange ideas and opinions.

You once again attempt to misrepresent what was clearly my understanding of how he felt and label me a troll to boot. ("I will repeat the gist of what I said before: I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to speak for other people, **edit**. By all means, feel free to state your own opinions (I will continue to feel free to disregard them) without having to make them sound as if they are coming straight from the heads of others. That is all.")

I would like to thank you for insight into what I intended as well as your friendly, kind, understanding guidance. Take care!


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't know TraciJo. I can see how you could see control issues, but what I hear from OP is hurt and fear. 

Not so much that she should do as she is told, but rather that he is becoming less important. Not that she is losing weight, but rather, well lets be honest, that he is losing her.

Most of this is triggered not by her choosing to lose weight, but rather by the way she made that choice. 

I hope that what he fears is not the reality, and often it is not, but I think the reaction is normal, and that most of us would feel the same.

I do think that many women, for good reason, see male control as a undercurrent in these situations. There certainly are jerks out there. 

I am of the opinion (and have some unpleasant history to support it) that there are plenty of women who have the same kinds of control issues over men. It is difficult not to see control issues where they don't exist when you have experience with them, also out of fear. You may not be doing this, but I know I have been guilty of it myself.

In any case, I think OP loves his wife and we are being to hard on him and could be more supportive instead.

Hopefully, I won't be told to "shut up" this time!


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## Jes (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Most of this is triggered not by her choosing to lose weight, but rather by the way she made that choice.
> 
> )



shut up this time.


*snicker*

I'd disagree with the above statement, personally. We only have his side of things, and we don't know if there was more to it than that. I tell my husband to take out the garbage 18 times before he hears it, so perhaps she said she was considering making some changes more than 2 weeks ago, or whatever it was in the OP.

And I don't feel that I'm being hard on him at all.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> I don't know TraciJo. I can see how you could see control issues, but what I hear from OP is hurt and fear.
> 
> Not so much that she should do as she is told, but rather that he is becoming less important. Not that she is losing weight, but rather, well lets be honest, that he is losing her.
> 
> ...



I liked your initial post, and thought that you had some valuable insight. I don't know if it applies to fachad ... only he can answer that ... but it certainly had a ring of truth, at least to me.

I didn't mean to *not* be supportive of the OP, although I do understand that it may come across that way. I am incredulous that he thinks his wife may truly care so much about what strangers thinks that she'd have a major, expensive, painful operation ... all without taking his feelings into consideration. I was hoping that he may see this from a stranger's perspective, and would maybe rethink some of those assumptions. 

To me, the controlling aspect of things is in how he words things like "we've had a happy compromise about her weight", and "I would have thrown all the food away and forced her to walk until she cried so she'd lose SOME weight and not ALL of it" plus the nature of how & why his wife chose surgery, and the fact that he feels that this is something that she's done "to" him. I'm reading some ownership issues with regard to his preference and how that translates to his wife's body. I could be a gazillion percent wrong (it's been known to happen ), but it is my take on things, and fachad can take that free advise from a complete stranger for ... exactly what it's worth. It doesn't cost me a thing to dispense.


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## fachad (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Read his reply Fascinita
> 
> And now the second point, there is not one place in his posts, or in mine that suggested that he had the right to control her body. You own that, not him or me. I was able to put myself in his place and understand, and it is not what she did so much as how she did it. And that has nothing to do with control of anyone. It does however have to do with trust, consideration, and security in a relationship.
> 
> Everything isn't about men controlling women and women aren't the only ones entitled to feelings.



Thanks, nottobig. 

Possibly Fascinita did not see some of things I wrote but picked up the thread later and based her comments on personal experience or what others had written. But I can't believe how many people here have brought up the control/ownership issue. This despite - not just as you pointed out - an absence of statements to that effect on my part - but the presence of EXPLICIT statements in multiple posts that:

- I'm not trying to change her behavior - I'm trying to change mine;
- I'm focused on my feelings as the problem - not what she is doing; 
- I'm trying to figure out why this is hitting me so hard, and causing me so much turmoil - not figure out how hook her up to a pudding IV in her sleep.

So I really appreciate posts where people put themselves in this position, and then verbalize why it feels bad. If I don't know what thoughts are generating my feelings, I'm going to keep spinning and suffering. If I know what I am thinking (even at a pre-conscious level) that generates and fuels these bad feelings, then I can work with what might be unreasonable or distorted and thereby get my feelings straight.

That's why multiple posts coming from multiple perspectives are so valuable. Because if there are aspects to this which I am not aware of and do not work thru, those things are going to come out later as sadness, or anger or resentment. I don't want to live like that, and I most certainly don't want to make her feel bad. (She can of course tell when I'm sad, even if I think I'm totally hiding it, so PRETENDING to be OK with things is not an option.)


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## Jes (Jan 24, 2008)

I wonder if we're all speaking at cross purposes here. I don't know how others mean control issues or being in control or being controlling. Personally, I don't think you're trying to control your wife or her behavior at this point, and I don't know about the past, so I won't hazard a guess. When I talk about control, I'm saying: I think you're feeling out of control. As if you're not in control--of anything. Of yourself, though having control over your wife (in that you wish she wanted to stay fat) plays into that too, somewhere. And no one likes feeling out of control. No one likes feeling threatened. Acting out of fear. And I think we've all decided that's what's happening to you.


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

You might be right TraciJo. But don't discount the desire for acceptance ... especially if she thinks that he will eventually come around. People DO make quick decisions like this for superficial reason sometimes. This might be a case where the insurance companies insistence on the preliminary steps and delay is actually a good thing.

What is interesting to me is, from what he said, she was able to bypass all or most of the counseling. I have known some people who had WLS surgery, and the things you mentioned were all true. Next comes cosmetic surgery to remove excess skin, scars, all the digestive and nutrition issues. I would worry that she is not going in with eyes wide open.

Even though it is her body and her decision, she is going to want a lot of support from the husband she left out of all the discussions. Even though she didn't trust him to be part of the discussion, she expects a lot from him afterward. I have a hard time seeing the up side of this one. Tough times all around.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> Thanks, nottobig.
> 
> Possibly Fascinita did not see some of things I wrote but picked up the thread later and based her comments on personal experience or what others had written. But I can't believe how many people here have brought up the control/ownership issue. This despite - not just as you pointed out - an absence of statements to that effect on my part - but the presence of EXPLICIT statements in multiple posts that:
> 
> ...



fachad, I did read the whole thread. I've posted a couple of times, with what I'd hoped would be helpful comments. I think they were sensible and sage comments  Maybe you will get around to reading them. If you can use them, great. If not, I still hope you are able to work through your feelings.

As I said previously, I empathize with your angst. I'll wish you good luck again.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> You might be right TraciJo. But don't discount the desire for acceptance ... especially if she thinks that he will eventually come around. People DO make quick decisions like this for superficial reason sometimes. This might be a case where the insurance companies insistence on the preliminary steps and delay is actually a good thing.
> 
> What is interesting to me is, from what he said, she was able to bypass all or most of the counseling. I have known some people who had WLS surgery, and the things you mentioned were all true. Next comes cosmetic surgery to remove excess skin, scars, all the digestive and nutrition issues. I would worry that she is not going in with eyes wide open.
> 
> Even though it is her body and her decision, she is going to want a lot of support from the husband she left out of all the discussions. Even though she didn't trust him to be part of the discussion, she expects a lot from him afterward. I have a hard time seeing the up side of this one.



OK, to be honest, I just can't wrap my brain around the fact that she made such a quick decision, and that it was self-pay (if, that is, she has insurance and would have otherwise just had to jump through hoops to get the procedure done ... it's damn, damn expensive, as fachad no doubt knows). Or the fact that Chad thinks she decided so quickly in an effort to quash his input. To me, that speaks of her fear that if she gave him some time to discuss it with her, he'd change her mind. And she didn't want her mind to be changed. In *my* experience, I give my husband the bum rush when I feel that he's being controlling. He is an otherwise reasonable, loving, and dear companion ... but he is a bit (in my mind) anal about money, and we have completely different philosophies about how it should be spent (or not spent, in his case). I hate being controlled & called into account for how I spend every dime ... so I think of creative ways to get what *I* want without constantly subjecting myself to his criticism & negativity. I will admit to some possible transference here ... because the only way I could see myself doing what chad's wife did ... is if I felt that my husband would manipulate or try to strong-arm me into not having the procedure done at all (and I'd already set my mind to it, whether I shared that with him or not).


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> If I know what I am thinking (even at a pre-conscious level) that generates and fuels these bad feelings, then I can work with what might be unreasonable or distorted and thereby get my feelings straight.



If you're allowing for the posibility of subconscious issues, then I'm not sure why you're discounting the "control" thing. Maybe you don't want to change her, but maybe you do feel like what you always hoped would be there for you to enjoy has been taken away, and that you have absolutely no power to change that. That is a pretty hard wall to hit.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> You immediately provided your guidance that I think amounts to "get over it". (your actual text here - "You know fachad, I guess it seems to me it's out of your hands at the moment ... And all I can say is that it will pass, as anxiety always does")



Spare me. And stop putting words in people's mouths. And while you're at it, stop deconstructing what I write.

If you had any integrity you wouldn't be trying to turn my good-faith comments and show of support for the OP into a statement of dismissal.


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "posting under another id" thing.

oh, and I didn't any words in your mouth, I quoted you. If you don't like how your words sound when they are repeated back to you, how do you think they sounded when you wrote them the first time?


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

I can understand why you might feel that way TraciJo. You are actually doing something similar to what I do, put yourself in her place.

Do you ever doing something you regret later by pushing decisions to avoid the "5th degree"? I suspect I would ... my quick decisions are not as good as when I bounce it off people first.


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## fachad (Jan 24, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> fachad, I did read the whole thread. I've posted a couple of times, with what I'd hoped would be helpful comments. I think they were sensible and sage comments  Maybe you will get around to reading them. If you can use them, great. If not, I still hope you are able to work through your feelings.
> 
> As I said previously, I empathize with your angst. I'll wish you good luck again.



I've read the whole thread thru more than a few times. I'm really sorry I didnt see your earlier posts (well I DID see them, but didnt put it together that it was YOU who posted them.)

Anyway, I'm glad there is a high volume of posts. They ALL help. Even comments that are negative (in the name of being supportive) - saying things like, shes cruel or she betrayed you. Those piss me off and make me take time to explicitly state why that is NOT true. Amazingly, I find that after Ive made it so clear that someone else can understand it, Ive also convinced myself in the process. And thats ONE less thing to be upset about.

I'd respond to each and every post the same day they were made if there were 96 hours in a day. And I realize Ive neglected to thank some of the people whove been most helpful, especially Stan and TracyJo67, who have provided BOTH a tremendous number of insights AND a case study in a successful outcome. 

But just because I haven't done an explicit response to a particular post, doesn't mean I haven't read it, or haven't gained insight from it, or haven't been helped by it. I'm just overwhelmed by the perspectives, the understanding, and even by the things I might have to admit to (like the possibility of some kind of control issues, though I'm very much not a controlling person, in most respects).

If you and others didn't point out where thought you saw control issues, I'd be moving along as if there were none and as if it's not even something I should consider. I dont take everything I read on the Internet at face value, but if/when it the shoe fits...well, I think I should at least look into it and see if there is any element of truth there.

So thanks very much for taking the time to be supportive, and for calling me on stuff where you think you see it.


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## fachad (Jan 24, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> fachad, how sure are you that this is REALLY how your wife feels? Some of what you've written seems ridiculous. Who would go through a major operation, one with extremely painful & uncomfortable side effects, so that they can look more acceptable to strangers in the supermarket? That's an incredible thing to say, and to project onto your wife.



Yes, it's pretty ridiculous. Even more so now that you point it out. 

A few days ago - it seems like weeks - Stan made some comment along the lines of "sorry for making you feel like a pervert". I typed a self-lampooning response to his post, but my browser crapped out and I lost it before it got posted. But I never forgot how it made me realize I was being ridiculous about a lot of things...I'm sure you and Stan would get a kick out of it, as will everyone, so I'll reconstruct it as best I can remember and post it shortly.



TraciJo67 said:


> I see a lot of ownership & control issues in what you are writing, despite your assertion to the contrary.



Yeah, and you're not the only one seeing these issues. I've moved from the stance "there's no way that's possible" to "I'm not taking everything at face value, but I think I should look into that".

Your and Stan's posts have been so fantastic and helpful. You have provided me with a tremendous number of insights, from both sides, and you have provided me with proof that this can be done, and both parties can come out happy! Thanks so much.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

mossystate said:


> I agree that this is not just about a sudden shazam moment of wanting to lose weight. I don't think this is even so much about wls. I realize we all compromise in relationships, but, when people are dealing with negotiating physical desires, this becomes such a minefield. How can anyone really know how ' ok ' they will be when their body is changing..one way or another..?
> 
> I know you are upset. You feel like someone is doing something ' to ' you, but, she might just be doing ' for '..her. You ( a general you ) cannot own a body. You cannot, in some dry manner, negotiate things like how much a person will weigh. Not to where it can be or should be written in stone...no way. The hook analogy is silly.
> 
> ...




I have to concur......it IS her body and her life. She's chosen to SHARE her life with you........but she didn't GIVE it to you. Nor did she hand you the reins of what course her life should take. Her whole life isn't about you and your needs/wants. You are only a part of her life. Accept it. 
She didn't do it to "slight you"- she did it to satisfy herself on some level. Believe it or not, being sexually attractive to her husband might not be enough. Perhaps she is struggling with health problems (I have HBP myself btw...I really wouldn't like my spouse blowing it off as you seemed to do) or maybe she is just tired of being fat. I know I get tired of the shit that comes with it time to time. A man that loves me is wonderful- but a man that loves me and supports me in what I feel I want to do with my life is divine


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## fachad (Jan 24, 2008)

Ok, since TracyJo67 called me on some ridiculous ideas, here's a bit of self-effacing humor, and some evidence that I can in fact see a few ways that I'm not always thinking straight about this...



fa_man_stan said:


> ...sometimes get a bit mellow dramatic...
> 
> Also, I didn't mean to infer that you (Fachad) are a pervert or anything... just using that for emphasis.



_ACK!!! 

Stan, how COULD you? How could you do this TO me - make me feel like a PERVERT! 

I suppose you didnt think about MY feelings at all when you did that, did you? 

And the WAY in which you did it - on the sly, in an alleged reply to AnnMarie! You did it that way so you could grind in your insult to my sexuality in a guilt-free way. I can see right thru that.

You know, this is supposed to be a SUPPORT forum. That means there is an implicit AGREEMENT here that we are supposed to SUPPORT each other, not INSULT each other.

Oh, now I'm sure you'll probably say that it was "MEDICALLY NECESSARY" for you to make me feel like a pervert. I'm sure you would say that you would have had a STROKE from holding back your venom, if you hadnt done that TO me. AS IF that makes me feel any better..._

(OK, just in case anyone out there is a little slow on the uptake...I am NOT laughing WITH me, I am laughing AT me. Feel free to do the same.) 

Thanks, Stan. I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but your mention of melodrama, and then the inference that YOU MADE ME feel like a pervert, just gave me a chance to see things from a different perspective, and laugh a little at whats going on and feel a bit better. 

(However, for the record, I still dont LIKE IT one bit that this happened.)


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> Just one quick thought for everyone who has suggested counseling. I seriously doubt the ability of a counselor to tease out what's really going on and offer anything useful.
> 
> AnnMarie said in one sentence more than a non-DIM person could have come up with in months.
> 
> ...




I probably understood ( but don't REALLY know) what it is to be an abused child more than my counselor does............funny how he still managed to give me guidance and change my life for the better 
Counselors aren't "magical" to say the least..........but some really DO care and want to help you. Why blow off the idea before you have even tried a session or two?


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I have to concur......it IS her body and her life. She's chosen to SHARE her life with you........but she didn't GIVE it to you. Nor did she hand you the reins of what course her life should take. Her whole life isn't about you and your needs/wants. You are only a part of her life. Accept it.
> She didn't do it to "slight you"- she did it to satisfy herself on some level. Believe it or not, being sexually attractive to her husband might not be enough. Perhaps she is struggling with health problems (I have HBP myself btw...I really wouldn't like my spouse blowing it off as you seemed to do) or maybe she is just tired of being fat. I know I get tired of the shit that comes with it time to time. A man that loves me is wonderful- but a man that loves me and supports me in what I feel I want to do with my life is divine



Everything you said is great and accurate .. AND since you love that man as much you expect him to love you, you will make the effort to include him, to bring him along with you as you change, and include him in your decisions as the trusted advisor. All of that is what makes the difference and reassures your husband that it is not about him, but about you. It keeps his insecurities at bay since you included him in your difficult decisions.

It is what you expect him to do for you, what he wants you to do for him, and what you should do for each other. 

In my opinion!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> Maybe--and I'm just *theorizing* here--you are upset by the sudden decision to have surgery because it signals that whatever degree of control over your wife's body ("ownership" of your wife's body) you felt you had previously has now been decisively terminated.



I was kind of thinking that.........but didn't want to say it


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Everything you said is great and accurate .. AND since you love that man as much you expect him to love you, you will make the effort to include him, to bring him along with you as you change, and include him in your decisions as the trusted advisor. *All of that is what makes the difference and reassures your husband that it is not about him, but about you. It keeps his insecurities at bay since you included him in your difficult decisions.*
> 
> It is what you expect him to do for you, what he wants you to do for him, and what you should do for each other.
> 
> In my opinion!



Trusted Advisor.........that's a big term. What does it mean/imply to you exactly? That his word is final? or more simply that that his opinion should matter? He FEELS like his opinion didn't matter.........however, why are we so sure of this? We have only gotten his side so far........and some of what he said didn't ring with me. 
I think the decision of weight loss surgery is a hard one- no doubt. Personally, the thought of it scares the hell out of me. That tends to lead me to believe that people that do it have GOOD REASONING to do so.......
He has said that he's been married for 18 years......that tells me that his wife is probably into her 30s or 40s. She has lived fat, with him, all that time. She didn't "cave into peer pressure" suddenly at that age. In fact, when most people get to this age, it seems that so many of us want to do/try different things, be the person we set out to be, or learn what we always wanted to learn. 
His wife wanted to be thinner. She was willing to do something incredibly painful (all surgery is painful, enough said), life altering and even dangerous to achieve it. It was THAT important to her. 
It wasn't a hit against her man.........it was a NEED she had. Her trusted adviser might take that into consideration before just worrying mainly about his own needs.


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## Butterbelly (Jan 24, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I was kind of thinking that.........but didn't want to say it



And I agree!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

I understand and agree with what LovesBHMS said about compromise. It isn't always about cutting it straight down the middle- it simply means that SOMETIMES you get what you want. What you get the other part of the time is the knowledge that the person you love is happy with what they got on their turn.


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Trusted Advisor.........that's a big term. What does it mean/imply to you exactly? That his word is final? or more simply that that his opinion should matter? He FEELS like his opinion didn't matter.........however, why are we so sure of this? We have only gotten his side so far........and some of what he said didn't ring with me.
> I think the decision of weight loss surgery is a hard one- no doubt. Personally, the thought of it scares the hell out of me. That tends to lead me to believe that people that do it have GOOD REASONING to do so.......
> He has said that he's been married for 18 years......that tells me that his wife is probably into her 30s or 40s. She has lived fat, with him, all that time. She didn't "cave into peer pressure" suddenly at that age. In fact, when most people get to this age, it seems that so many of us want to do/try different things, be the person we set out to be, or learn what we always wanted to learn.
> His wife wanted to be thinner. She was willing to do something incredibly painful (all surgery is painful, enough said), life altering and even dangerous to achieve it. It was THAT important to her.
> It wasn't a hit against her man.........it was a NEED she had. Her trusted adviser might take that into consideration before just worrying mainly about his own needs.



Trusted Advisor ... someone whose opinion I value greatly .. nearly as much as my own. Someone I can count upon to tell me what I need to hear rather than what I want to hear, in a way that I can stand to hear it. Someone whom I respect, and want to always have theirs.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> Trusted Advisor ... someone whose opinion I value greatly .. nearly as much as my own. Someone I can count upon to tell me what I need to hear rather than what I want to hear, in a way that I can stand to hear it. Someone whom I respect, and want to always have theirs.



I would also want my trusted adviser to respect MY opinion, as well. My trusted adviser would perceive me as intelligent and capable. 
Marriage is a give and take- that means two people are in it. BOTH have needs to be taken into consideration. Marriage isn't about one spouse telling the other what to do.


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## Jes (Jan 24, 2008)

chad, there's an exercise that i think could really help you crack this, but i don't want to 'do it' here and i don't know that you have any interest. if you do, call my bat phone!


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## nottobig (Jan 24, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Trusted Advisor.........that's a big term. What does it mean/imply to you exactly? That his word is final? or more simply that that his opinion should matter? He FEELS like his opinion didn't matter.........however, why are we so sure of this? We have only gotten his side so far........and some of what he said didn't ring with me.



And I am getting pretty sick of every other post implying that there is a obsessive controlling jerk present. "That his word is final?" Has anything I have had to say come even close to that? Can you find a definition of "Advisor" that matches that? I can't even imagine having or wanting that kind of power over someone else.

Of COURSE his opinion should matter. Will he share the problems with her, care for her when she is in pain, can't eat, is too weak to walk? Will he be responsible for medical bills with her? Will he suffer her loss if something should go badly wrong? Veto power, hell no! But damn right his opinion should matter to her while she is making the decision. He, more that anyone else will share the consequences of her decision. 

And EVERY thing I just said should apply if the roles were reversed as well. If you don't want this kind of responsibility in your life stay single.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 24, 2008)

nottobig said:


> And I am getting pretty sick of every other post implying that there is a obsessive controlling jerk present. "That his word is final?" Has anything I have had to say come even close to that? Can you find a definition of "Advisor" that matches that? I can't even imagine having or wanting that kind of power over someone else.
> 
> Of COURSE his opinion should matter. Will he share the problems with her, care for her when she is in pain, can't eat, is too weak to walk? Will he be responsible for medical bills with her? Will he suffer her loss if something should go badly wrong? Veto power, hell no! But damn right his opinion should matter to her while she is making the decision. He, more that anyone else will share the consequences of her decision.
> 
> And EVERY thing I just said should apply if the roles were reversed as well. If you don't want this kind of responsibility in your life stay single.



Lol hehehhehehhee sorry but I find this angry post funny :batting:  

Probably because you seem frustrated. If you want to see me say "His Opinion Matters" then here it is. If you want me to say that "His Opinion Matters MOST when she makes a decision about HER VERY OWN BODY" then that is where we are parting ways, my friend. 

He blew off any health concerns she had expressed- health concerns that were brought to her attention by her "Trusted Physician" that the OP implied is "fat friendly". 
What I have also gotten out of the OP was that he blew off her reasoning, that he blew off her wants/needs and kept on about HIS needs. His needs, that he himself can't even justify/understand. You expect his wife to blow off her own needs for something her Trusted Adviser doesn't even seem capable of understanding? 


I was married for 14 years to a man that I once called my "soul mate". I know what it is to be married EVERY DAY and I know what it is to no longer have your life be ENTIRELY your own. That, however, doesn't imply ownership of your spouse's body. Sexual needs/desires shouldn't always be "Front seat" in a relationship.

Know why we split? I got sick of his needs always being considered more important than my own. I never contemplated leaving him over his weight.


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## Fascinita (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> So thanks very much for taking the time to be supportive, and for calling me on stuff where you think you see it.



No, I was just wanting to add another perspective. You sound like you're being honest with yourself. That's not always easy to do. Take care.


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## DisenchantedDreamer (Jan 24, 2008)

I think we may be missing out on some of the information that the OP recently supplied us, due to the bickering (no offense, anyone). Anyway, it seems as if their relationship was lacking in some other ways, as the OP made some statements regarding give and take and compromise going his wife's way a large percent of the time. Yes, it does seem that he feels "slighted", probably due to the fact that this was his one and only expectation of his wife. Should it be an expectation? No, but it was something he believed wouldn't be an issue since she was making statements like "you NEVER have to worry about me becoming thin". I would imagine that adds to his confusion over the entire situation. Also, WLS is very final with weight loss and is obviously more threatening than a diet. I think that he might have fears associated with all of the alterations, not just physical, that will occur as well as the possibility of complications. The surface fears would be with the changing of her body, but this runs a lot deeper. We can't discount that communication was a huge key to this situation not being as difficult as it turned out. As her husband, he should have been involved in the planning stages of this decision, instead of being informed after the decision had been made. Once again, we don't know if he may have just blind to the writing on the wall. Possibly, his wife may have not wanted to hurt him if he was very vocal about his desire for her at a higher weight and she thought that not involving him in her decision was the best way to handle things. I think that he needs to confront her about how he feels and start to heal their relationship. Whether or not some of you feel that he is selfish or controlling, I think he has been extremely open and is longing for some answers and understanding. That is admirable to me.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jan 24, 2008)

fachad said:


> So all that talk about now she gets 100% and I get 0% is not just hyperbole. It DOES actually feel like she's getting 100% - because she was ALREADY getting 99% and I was sitting there just with my 1%, and LOVING it, because to me that particular 1% was worth more that the other 99% combined. But now that she has THAT too, whats left for me?
> 
> 
> And there's the reason for the "100% - 0%" talk, the resentment, and the vulnerable feeling I now have that she can get away with ANYTHING  and she knows it, and she knows that I know it, and she knows that I know that she knows it.




I admit that I have not read absolutely every entry in this thread, so please forgive me if someone else has already said what I'm about to say. First, a few disclaimers, I am an FFA, so I understand your fears about finding your wife less attractive if she loses weight. I am a woman, so I feel that ultimately her body and what she does with it are her domain( I am not saying men don't believe this as well, by the way, but most women tend to feel very strongly about this, I think). I am not fat, so I feel a person's decision to have WLS is not something I can comment on one way or the other. And I also think that since you posted this in the first place, and have not mentioned leaving her, etc, that you seem like a pretty nice man who is trying to come to terms with things. 

Now, here is my point to you. I understand that you feel that she gets her way all the time and all you ask is that she stay at a weight you find attractive, but let me ask you to think about this for a moment. If she is/and or has been unhappy for whatever reason at her current weight isn't it possible that if you asked her, she'd see the situation as you getting 99%? The thing is that nothing can replace the feeling a person has when they are happy with themselves. Obviously, I believe that many fat people are and should be happy being fat, but if your wife is not one of them, then all the other compromises you've made may seem like very little in return for staying at a weight you wanted her at. The truth is that staying at a size she does not like actually dictates many of her day to day experiences, so to her it may seem that you've had a great deal of say in her life all along. I'm not accusing you of being controlling, I'm just saying that all the trips, clothing, luxuries etc would not really compensate for her feeling bad about herself in her own eyes. Not that she doesn't appreciate the things you do or give her, but they are things and she needs to feel comfortable in her own skin be it for her health, her physical comfort or her emotional well being and happiness. Otherwise, there is the possibility that she can't truly enjoy her life the way she wants to. Again, I'm not saying people can't be happy fat, I'm just saying it sounds like she isn't and that will make all the difference to her every day, day after day. 

I understand that as her husband, your feelings should be taken into account. And yes, WLS causes a lot of challenges for both partners and you risk her loss just as she takes risks having the surgery. But that is another point. She is willing to undergo surgery, so to me, that means she must feel very strongly about this. To me it indicates that she truly feels she can no longer be happy at her current weight. Any surgery contains risks, and this is something far more serious than a purely "cosmetic" procedure like breast implants or something of that nature. I understand you feel that you were not consulted thoroughly and that that hurts, but I can't help but think she has her own emotional pain that she is dealing with in order to entertain something so drastic. And please, emotional pain does not only come from feeling less attractive to society or anyone else. She might feel limited, she might have physical problems that are not dangerous, but are still difficult for her to deal with on a daily basis. I think TraciJo brought some fine examples to light in some of her posts, issues like sore joints, or the overall feeling of a loss of independence. These can all cause varying amounts of emotional and physical distress.

I am not saying that you (or any other F/FA) is wrong to feel the way you feel, but I think maybe you need to see the 99%/1% situation a little differently, or at least be open to the possibility that it has more to do with her feelings about herself and her life than with "winning" any compromise. I also do not think that you should view this as a total disregard for you and your happiness. I do not know your wife, but I am guessing that she does care what you think and how you feel, but she still will make the ultimate decision about how she lives her life. You can't live your life unhappy just to make the person you love happy. What if something happens to them? What are you left with then?

Either way, I wish you both the best and hope that you can work through these issues together.


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## fachad (Jan 25, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> And, judging by his enthusiastic reaction to *my* renewed sex drive, he's not just "settling", either.



Wow! Thanks for including that little bit of info. 

On some of the regular (non-size acceptance) WLS boards, many women have been reporting that they expected that when they lost weight, they would be more attractive to their husbands, feel better about themselves, and have increased interest in sex. But distressingly, many reported that their husbands found them more attractive, that they felt better about themselves, but that their sex drive had paradoxically plummeted!

People have speculated that it's caused by the biochemistry of losing large amounts of weight, messed up hormones and etc. The idea is that those factors cause a decrease in sex-drive, despite feeling "more sexy". 

I'm really glad to hear that that's not true for everybody. Because, you know, increased interest sure would be a nice perk - one that could potentially go a long way toward making the whole thing more palatable.

***

If anyone is interested in the WLS-Lost Sex-Drive discussions, here are a couple links:

http://www.lapbandtalk.com/f17/still-no-sex-drive-what-s-wrong-me-49154/

http://www.lapbandtalk.com/f7/no-sex-drive-40612/


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## Jes (Jan 25, 2008)

this doesn't hit at the heart of the issue, but i have read many, many posts from women here who have had WLS some years ago, and who are still fat or quite fat, many having gained that weight back. I hesitate posting that b/c I personally don't think it's a good thing, and I also don't think that you should have any...schadenfreude, for lack of a better term, here b/c ultimately, I don't think that's any better for your marriage than just dealing with the situation as it is, but that's another thing to keep in mind.

Are you talking with her about this in any constructive way? I think you said you are. What's coming of those discussions? Are they alleviating your fears about the future or shedding any light on your past relationship about which you may have been unaware?


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## nottobig (Jan 25, 2008)

You know, if I was going to have a surgical procedure that had any significant risks, might cause me to need help afterwards if it when well, and especially one that might debilitating if it when poorly, I would be talking to my spouse, my parents, my sister, anyone whose opinion I valued and would help I might need.

In doing this I assure them that I value their opinion and need their support. I would gain perspective that is essential since emotion is going to distort my decision making ability.

If I made a decision of this sort without consultation with them and rushed it by bypassing the normal vetting process, they would all be hurt, and would all be of the opinion that I had "lost it". They would be sure I was making poor decisions through emotion, simply based on the way the decision was made.

If I did that they would all know that I was intentionally bypassing them, even if I didn't say that, and that I did not trust them. And no two ways about it, that would indeed be the message I had sent.

Now I am a dedicated liberatarian, I certainly believe that I have the right to do as described above. My body is the thing I most surely own and have full rights over. I believe most strongly that we all have the right to do as we please in this regard. But with the abiility to make choices alone comes the risk of bearing consequences alone.

One of the consequences of telling (by my actions) those who care for me that I don't trust them and don't need or want their advise, is going to be damage to those relationships. The closer they are, the greater the damage.

As a pattern of behavior this would result in my support network going away. It would be of my own doing. If this was done to me by my spouse it would be a severe blow to the relationship. My confidence in our relationship would be challenged, my confidence in her decisions would be weakened. I would know she didn't trust me, and wonder if she loved me. then if she ever loved me. And I would resent the expectation that I would be there if things went badly after being treated with such disregard.

Oh I know, you will (and have) said how it should be about her, how bad she feels, how desperate she apparently is, how she will feel better afterward. But a relationship is give and take for sure, but even more it is shared. When you tell someone you don't trust them, that when the big decisions come you don't need them, if you aren't planning to become single you probably should have a contingency plan for it. It is much easier to hurt than to heal, and relationships are easier to break than to fix.

Bottom line, if your expectation of your partner is you make your life decisions without them (because it is, after all, your body) and expect to him just support you, share the consequences, and go along. You may be surprised one day when he says "you didn't need me when you got into this mess, surely you don't need me now.".


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## fachad (Jan 25, 2008)

Jes said:


> this doesn't hit at the heart of the issue, but i have read many, many posts from women here who have had WLS some years ago, and who are still fat or quite fat, many having gained that weight back. I hesitate posting that b/c I personally don't think it's a good thing,



No, I definitely don't want to even consider anything that would make her fell less confident about the procedure. Yesterday when she got weighted, she'd lost a bit, and she asked me if that upset me. I said, "maybe it upset me a little, but if you had gained (which was her fear) I would be crying my eyes out with you. As much as I don't like this, I don't want to see her hopes crushed, nor even suggest to her that WLS does not always work. If her expectations change, it will be slowly and be mediated by her results, not by nay-saying anecdotes provided by me.



Jes said:


> and I also don't think that you should have any...schadenfreude, for lack of a better term, here b/c ultimately, I don't think that's any better for your marriage than just dealing with the situation as it is, but that's another thing to keep in mind.



Yuck. Now I thought control/ownership issues were the most hideous possible consideration...but schadenfreude. That is poison to the self, even when directed at strangers. 



Jes said:


> Are you talking with her about this in any constructive way? I think you said you are. What's coming of those discussions? Are they alleviating your fears about the future or shedding any light on your past relationship about which you may have been unaware?



We've talked about it a lot. It is exhausting. Sometimes she gets angry and defensive. So, I could be talking about how this situation makes me feel invalidated (per nottobig), and she will start saying things like, "but don't you care about my health? Do you want me dead". So I can see that at that time, she is not really listening to me. I am saying, "I feel such and such, can you see how I could feel that way?" but she is hearing "you are trying to talk me out of this, or just make me feel guilty for doing this, and I know it was the right thing to do because of x, y, and z." So when we start down that road, I back off for a while.

This style conflict is not new to me. I was not unaware of it before. Really, I have learned little to nothing about her that I did not already know. Like I said, her personality is solid, I don't think she's going to change. I explained her rational for handling this situation this way in posts #8 and #10. This particular event is not indicative of a pattern of unannounced changes, but is a specific situation which she believed had to be handled in an exceptional way.

When I have caught her is a good mood, and we've talked, she has been able to alleviate every fear that I have been able to verbalize. Thats why I like this thread so much, because people post things that were bothering me at a pre-verbal level, but because I wasnt able to put my finger on it, it created free-floating anxiety or sadness. Having things explicitly stated enables me to look at them rationally and allows her to provide pinpoint reassurances on particular issues.

This place is also invaluable, because I can say dumb, inflammatory things here and someone will correct me, or point out why I should not look at things that way, and even if their post is angry in tone, I can just extract the truth from it and disregard the rage (something you cannot do in a heated discussion with your spouse). When people have genuinely corrected me on some false line of thinking, or pointed out some perspective that I'm missing (and this has happened very, very often), I can take it to heart, with no actual inter-spousal fighting required and no hostile emotions generated. I don't take everything at face value, but I do take everything to heart. And so by the time I talk to her about some issue, I've already had the obvious mistakes pointed out to me, so I don't say so many stupid things and she doesnt get pissed off. And that is really more helpful than anything.


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## fachad (Jan 25, 2008)

Because you seem to be focusing on this issue quite a bit, I feel I need to clear things up. You were 100% right about the feeling that pleasing me is less important, but I've totally accepted and now agree with the way she handled the execution of the decision.

But I've talked with her a lot about why she did it THAT way, and I've come to understand her reasons perfectly clearly. I, truthfully, I can't think of a scenario where there would have been less overall hurt and strife. And I don't believe this particular event is indicative of any kind of her having any kind of "loose cannon" attitude or unannounced upcoming behaviors on her part.

Here's her rational: 

She did not know WLS was going to come up in her Dr. visit. It was just a routine visit. Her BP was very high - it has always run high b/c of "dr. office anxiety" but it was even higher that day. And she had gained 10 lbs. even though she had been quite diligent in eating choices. Her doctor does not usually chastise her about her weight - he seems generally respectful toward fat people - but he asked her if she had considered lap band and said that her BP could cause a stroke. She took this as "if you don't do WLS, you will have a stroke". To that thought she added, "there is no other way I will lose weight - look, I've been trying and I've gained 10 more lbs."

Because she knew the extent of my preference, and that I would not approve, and because of her fear of health problems, she made the decision on the spot and then told me. Then she took steps to make sure the surgery happened as fast as possible, so there would be no time for either one of us to think about it. She told me, "I had to take this out of both our hands: out of your hands so you do not try to prevent it; and out of my hands because I want to please you, and I might have given in to you, so I had to take it out of my hands too."

She is not a cruel or inconsiderate person - she is tough in the face of (perceived) necessity, and she knows me really well. She does/did care how I felt, she just felt like she had to override that and override her desire not to upset me to be able to do what "had to be done". She arranged the self-pay so I would have no time to try to talk her out of it, and so she would have no time to feel sorry for me and back out to please me, which she considered a real possibility. She thought it was like "ripping the band-aid off fast", and that doing it this way would save us fights and agony.

And in hindsight, it did spare us fights and agony. The pain of the slap in the face from her not consulting me was surely much less worse than the pain we would have had from ongoing fights. And she would have done it anyway, so I'd still be where I am now but both of us would have tender nerves from fighting about it for god knows how long. Like I said, I can't think of a scenario where there would have been less overall hurt and strife.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 25, 2008)

> Yesterday when she got weighted, she'd lost a bit, and she asked me if that upset me. I said, "maybe it upset me a little, but if you had gained (which was her fear) I would be crying my eyes out with you. As much as I don't like this, I don't want to see her hopes crushed, nor even suggest to her that WLS does not always work.



1. You are the very definition of a real man.

2. The two of you should teach "Marriage Encounter" classes.

The most positive and beautiful thing that I've seen from you is the combination of her saying didn't want to be talked out of the surgery because she wanted so badly to make you happy, and you saying that even though you didn't want the surgery you'd cry with her if she were disappointed.

I can see why the two of you have made it the eighteen years.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 25, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> 1. You are the very definition of a real man.
> 
> 2. The two of you should teach "Marriage Encounter" classes.
> 
> ...



Ditto, fachad. You obviously know your wife very well, and you understand her. She's fortunate to have you by her side.


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## nottobig (Jan 25, 2008)

I really am impressed by how you have handled the situation and truly wish both of you the best.

My previous post was not really directed at your situation in particular, but more toward the topic in general. Some of the responses seem to key on "it is her body" quite a bit. Although I agree with that, in the context of marriage there is a huge impact associated with how decisions are made, even decisions that are ultimately personal.


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## Super Fan (Feb 18, 2008)

This is up to you what you will do. As for me, yea, I prefer a SSBBW physically and I love everything that goes with being with, loving and helping a SSBBW through life. Over the last ten years I have seen the number of SSBBW explode; it is a heaven on earth for FAs, like me. The hell part is that I have known many SSBBWs who had WLS and saw their beautiful weight crash, then they have many horrible operations to remove their excess skin and after a few years, most that I have known, start gaining their weight back. Now the many scars that they have to remove the excess skin expand horribly. I have seen girls with scars over 6 inches wide. When the WLS victim gains their fat back, sometimes it can be tight as a drum, not the soft sexy fat that they originally had. 

For these and many more reasons, I totally disagree with WLS, and think that it is unfair to expect me to hang around and transform my life into a living hell. If a lady gets sick and loses weight, hey that is not her fault, and I think that is ok, if she goes on a sane diet, which is ok with me too, as long as she does not rub it in. Does the fact that I despise and will not put up with WLS, make me a monster that should be thrown to the curve, I am not going to make that call, but selfish or not, I prefer to be with a SSBBW, and like it or not, that is the way it has been and will be.


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## AnnMarie (Feb 18, 2008)

Super Fan said:


> This is up to you what you will do. As for me, yea, I prefer a SSBBW physically and I love everything that goes with being with, loving and helping a SSBBW through life. Over the last ten years I have seen the number of SSBBW explode; it is a heaven on earth for FAs, like me. The hell part is that I have known many SSBBWs who had WLS and saw their beautiful weight crash, then they have many horrible operations to remove their excess skin and after a few years, most that I have known, start gaining their weight back. Now the many scars that they have to remove the excess skin expand horribly. I have seen girls with scars over 6 inches wide. When the WLS victim gains their fat back, sometimes it can be tight as a drum, not the soft sexy fat that they originally had.
> 
> For these and many more reasons, I totally disagree with WLS, and think that it is unfair to expect me to hang around and transform my life into a living hell. If a lady gets sick and loses weight, hey that is not her fault, and I think that is ok, if she goes on a sane diet, which is ok with me too, as long as she does not rub it in. Does the fact that I despise and will not put up with WLS, make me a monster that “should be thrown to the curve”, I am not going to make that call, but selfish or not, I prefer to be with a SSBBW, and like it or not, that is the way it has been and will be.



We have a board here for WLS-controversy discussions, and your post is definitely firmly in that tangent. If you want to continue that conversation, you're welcome to begin a thread there, but this thread should really only be about the original topic regarding his situation/relationship. 

Thank you,
moderator


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## TraciJo67 (Feb 19, 2008)

Super Fan said:


> This is up to you what you will do. As for me, yea, I prefer a SSBBW physically and I love everything that goes with being with, loving and helping a SSBBW through life. Over the last ten years I have seen the number of SSBBW explode; it is a heaven on earth for FAs, like me. The hell part is that I have known many SSBBWs who had WLS and saw their beautiful weight crash, then they have many horrible operations to remove their excess skin and after a few years, most that I have known, start gaining their weight back. Now the many scars that they have to remove the excess skin expand horribly. I have seen girls with scars over 6 inches wide. When the WLS victim gains their fat back, sometimes it can be tight as a drum, not the soft sexy fat that they originally had.
> 
> For these and many more reasons, I totally disagree with WLS, and think that it is *unfair to expect me to hang around *and transform my life into a living hell. If a lady gets sick and loses weight, hey that is not her fault, and I think that is ok, if she goes on a sane diet, which is ok with me too, *as long as she does not rub it in*. Does the fact that I despise and *will not put up with WLS*, make me a monster that should be thrown to the curve, I am not going to make that call, but selfish or not, I prefer to be with a SSBBW, and like it or not, that is the way it has been and will be.



Control issues much, Chumpy?

Like it or not, you have control over YOUR OWN BODY only ... nobody else's. YOUR OWN. Only.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 19, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Control issues much, Chumpy?
> 
> Like it or not, you have control over YOUR OWN BODY only ... nobody else's. YOUR OWN. Only.




Seems like the bottom line of this thread, eh?


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## Super Fan (Feb 25, 2008)

"We've had a happy compromise about her weight (lower than I wanted, higher than she wanted, but where she felt OK and had no health problems) for many years, but now, suddenly, she wants to lose massive amounts of weight - far beyond the point of our mutually agreed compromise.

She decided to have WLS after a routine Dr. visit on Dec. 21 where he suggested it. She made her appt with the surgeon right after she got home. (no thinking about it, no researching it or talking it over) Her initial consult was set for Jan 7; and *then she had her surgery on Jan 17* - so as you can see this did not allow me very much time to adjust to such a sudden, drastic, unilaterally decided, massive life change.

She does not understand why this upsets me so much. Even though I act supportively, she can see right thru me and she can tell that I am very sad and anxious about her impending massive (probably about 100 lbs) weight loss."
"We have a board here for WLS-controversy discussions, and your post is definitely firmly in that tangent. If you want to continue that conversation, you're welcome to begin a thread there, but this thread should really only be about the original topic regarding his situation/relationship." - moderator-

OOps wrong board, sorry, :doh: I was just shocked at what happened to them and went into the anti- WLS rant. Yea I dont even want to think about how something like that would work out, and because I have my own super negative opinions on that nightmare  I surly am not going to give any advice about his relationship with his wife.


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## ChubbyChasr (Feb 25, 2008)

Chad,

I can completely empathize with you, and it is your post (and its responses) which have turned me into a poster from an occasional lurker. My wife of 6 years had WLS about 20 months ago. Prior to her surgery, my wife was definately a SSBBW. Since her surgery, she lost over 220 lbs. (and she's still losing, but not as much). I've been an open FA (supersized preference) since day one, and I was adamantly opposed to this kind of surgery. Fortunately, my wife also felt the same way, so the issue never came up. 

However, when hip issues started arising, which were complicated by the weight, my wife began to seriously consider the surgery. It was affecting her mobility and I could see that she was unhappy. I never wanted her to be unhappy and unhealthy for the sake of my preference (or fetish, or whatever it is characterized as). So, we jointly made a decision that the surgery would be best for her (and, besides, I'm not a domineering guy who would impose my will on my wife, so I knew that I could either get used to the idea now, or cause other problems). She's since had the surgery and is doing good with it. Her mobility is alot better, and there are many things that we can do together that we couldn't do before (walks, bike riding, and stuff like that). The problem is that as much as I love her, my physical attraction to her just isn't the same. I can't explain it, and I've tried to overcome it, but I find myself either fantasizing about how she used to be, pre-op, or fantasizing about other SSBBWs. I don't like to think that I'm such an animal that my base instincts and preferences control my thoughts and actions, but its definately becoming an issue. Up until recently, if anyone asked me whether I would do anything that would make my wife unhappy, I would have said no. But, I sometimes think that the price of her happiness has been a little bit of mine. Two years ago, if I had the opportunity to spend a few hours in the arms of another SSBBW, and even if I could have been guaranteed that my wife would never find out, I would definately have said no. Now, I'm not so sure, and that bothers the hell out of me.


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## jakub (Mar 1, 2008)

ChubbyChasr said:


> Two years ago, if I had the opportunity to spend a few hours in the arms of another SSBBW, and even if I could have been guaranteed that my wife would never find out, I would definately have said no. Now, I'm not so sure, and that bothers the hell out of me.



I'm also FA with SSBBW preference... Sometimes I'm happy with it...sometimes when I read WLS stories here, I'm really scared.

The problem is that for some FA's (me for sure) fat woman = real woman, if woman is not fat then my sexual attraction is below zero (even "blue pill" will not help). Next question is...how long marriage without sex can last...

I'm really sorry that some of us have to deal with this horror


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## liz (di-va) (Mar 1, 2008)

ChubbyChasr said:


> She's since had the surgery and is doing good with it. Her mobility is alot better, and there are many things that we can do together that we couldn't do before (walks, bike riding, and stuff like that). The problem is that as much as I love her, my physical attraction to her just isn't the same. I can't explain it, and I've tried to overcome it, but I find myself either fantasizing about how she used to be, pre-op, or fantasizing about other SSBBWs. I don't like to think that I'm such an animal that my base instincts and preferences control my thoughts and actions, but its definately becoming an issue. Up until recently, if anyone asked me whether I would do anything that would make my wife unhappy, I would have said no. But, I sometimes think that the price of her happiness has been a little bit of mine. Two years ago, if I had the opportunity to spend a few hours in the arms of another SSBBW, and even if I could have been guaranteed that my wife would never find out, I would definately have said no. Now, I'm not so sure, and that bothers the hell out of me.



I wish I had answers to this situation (obviously don't) but I just wanted to thank you for being honest about this. I don't think it was probably easy. I really feel for everybody in all parts of this situation, but it's hard not to think that being honest has to help *something* progress, as difficult as it is. Maybe I'm being naive. But I can tell you that it gives me a lot as an outsider to think about.


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## Tina (Mar 1, 2008)

ChubbyChasr said:


> Chad,
> 
> I can completely empathize with you, and it is your post (and its responses) which have turned me into a poster from an occasional lurker. My wife of 6 years had WLS about 20 months ago. Prior to her surgery, my wife was definately a SSBBW. Since her surgery, she lost over 220 lbs. (and she's still losing, but not as much). I've been an open FA (supersized preference) since day one, and I was adamantly opposed to this kind of surgery. Fortunately, my wife also felt the same way, so the issue never came up.
> 
> However, when hip issues started arising, which were complicated by the weight, my wife began to seriously consider the surgery. It was affecting her mobility and I could see that she was unhappy. I never wanted her to be unhappy and unhealthy for the sake of my preference (or fetish, or whatever it is characterized as). So, we jointly made a decision that the surgery would be best for her (and, besides, I'm not a domineering guy who would impose my will on my wife, so I knew that I could either get used to the idea now, or cause other problems). She's since had the surgery and is doing good with it. Her mobility is alot better, and there are many things that we can do together that we couldn't do before (walks, bike riding, and stuff like that). The problem is that as much as I love her, my physical attraction to her just isn't the same. I can't explain it, and I've tried to overcome it, but I find myself either fantasizing about how she used to be, pre-op, or fantasizing about other SSBBWs. I don't like to think that I'm such an animal that my base instincts and preferences control my thoughts and actions, but its definately becoming an issue. Up until recently, if anyone asked me whether I would do anything that would make my wife unhappy, I would have said no. But, I sometimes think that the price of her happiness has been a little bit of mine. Two years ago, if I had the opportunity to spend a few hours in the arms of another SSBBW, and even if I could have been guaranteed that my wife would never find out, I would definately have said no. Now, I'm not so sure, and that bothers the hell out of me.


CC, I don't think you're alone. I know that makes it no easier at all, but I think most of us understand that there's no choosing our preferences, and even though we all want to be found attractive for who we are, just as often we're found attractive for how we look. After all, it's the first thing a person sees.

I was just over 450 lbs four or five years ago and miserable. My mobility was impaired, I had pain issues 24/7, the whole nine yards. Since then, I took steps to lose some weight (not WLS of any sort -- just a change in food and exercise) and lost about 120 lbs. In the last six-eight months I've gained probably about 20 back (hard to say, as I don't have a scale) and want to lose some more, though not a lot. Mostly, I just want to feel better, hurt less and be able to walk around, whereas I just had to purchase a wheelchair, because were I live, one needs to do a lot of walking in order to get places. I don't like having to use a wheelchair, and I like the feeling of my body, when it's working well, moving painlessly. I know that my husband wants me to be able to do the things I want to do, too. I also know that his attraction is to fat women. How fat depends. His drawings encompass everything from maybe 300 lb women to women weighing a ton or more.

Friends and I have had the talk -- the one that goes: I'm in pain and I don't like how my body feels. Will my FA husband still desire and want me? It's scary for us women who want and need to lose weight, but don't want to lose our guys in the process. At the same time, I would not want to feel constrained and that I couldn't do what I needed to in order to feel healthy. It's a real quandry and I cannot (and wouldn't want to) indict you for your feelings.


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## Fascinita (Mar 1, 2008)

jakub said:


> I'm also FA with SSBBW preference... Sometimes I'm happy with it...sometimes when I read WLS stories here, I'm really scared.
> 
> The problem is that for some FA's (me for sure) fat woman = real woman, if woman is not fat then my sexual attraction is below zero (even "blue pill" will not help). Next question is...how long marriage without sex can last...
> 
> I'm really sorry that some of us have to deal with this horror



Speaking of horror... Imagine having to choose between your mobility and keeping your husband! When I think of it, I get chills down my spine.

I know how I'd choose. After all, a husband who did not value my welfare might not be a husband worth keeping.


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## ChubbyChasr (Mar 4, 2008)

Tina said:


> Friends and I have had the talk -- the one that goes: I'm in pain and I don't like how my body feels. Will my FA husband still desire and want me? It's scary for us women who want and need to lose weight, but don't want to lose our guys in the process. At the same time, I would not want to feel constrained and that I couldn't do what I needed to in order to feel healthy. It's a real quandry and I cannot (and wouldn't want to) indict you for your feelings.



You're right in that it's a two edged sword. You have to (and are entitled to) do what is best for your health, and the spouses are (or should be) all for it because it's a health issue. But, there is going to be that nagging thought (that is usually left unsaid): will I(he) find her(me) attractive at the end of the day? It may be an animal instinct, but we're all animals after all. The difference between a best friend forever and a spouse is that there is that level of physical intimacy between spouses. When that is compromised (or even threatened), things change quickly. I don't want my wife to feel that I'm less attracted to her (because I really do love the person that she is), so I've snuck those blue pills once or twice so that I could get a little extra help with my attraction. But, that's no long term fix (neither is an affair, but I find myself fantasizing about it more and more often). I want my wife to be happy and healthy, but the deal with this surgery is that her weight quickly fell right through any "happy medium" which might have existed.


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## ChubbyChasr (Mar 4, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> Speaking of horror... Imagine having to choose between your mobility and keeping your husband! When I think of it, I get chills down my spine.
> 
> I know how I'd choose. After all, a husband who did not value my welfare might not be a husband worth keeping.



I'm sure that that wasn't the point of his post, and it certainly wasn't the point of mine. My point is that I valued my wife's health and welfare above mine, and I really undervalued the importance of physical attraction. Now, I'm having thoughts that, I never imagined that I would ever have. You're getting mad because your thinking about a husband who is putting his needs above yours. Instead, think about a husband throwing his needs on a grenade for you. It's not selfishness, it's selflessness.


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## jakub (Mar 7, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> Speaking of horror... Imagine having to choose between your mobility and keeping your husband! When I think of it, I get chills down my spine.
> 
> I know how I'd choose. After all, a husband who did not value my welfare might not be a husband worth keeping.




Yes you are right. But everything is relative.

Lets imagine situation where you know if you lost a lot of weight, your husband will loose his penis (yes its drastic, but is quite similar to lost of attraction).
You will lost a lot of weight, but then - what you will do then with your husband? (lets assume that he still loves you).


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## Jes (Mar 7, 2008)

Divorce him?


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## jakub (Mar 7, 2008)

Jes said:


> Divorce him?


Let's add another assumption, you still loves him.


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## Jes (Mar 7, 2008)

Then I accept that he lost his penis in a tragic gardening accident and continue to make a life with him and I never once tell him that I want him to have penis replacement surgery. You're either in or you're out. You can't be half in unless you want to do real damage to someone else (and yourself in the process). If you're going to do that kind of damage to someone, do it to his face with divorce papers so at least he can see it coming. You've set up kind of a straw man, so I have to answer the situation you've created, but that's how I'd answer it. There's better and there's worse. That sounds like worse. But you don't have to make it even worse on TOP of the worse. If that's your inclination, get out.


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## jakub (Mar 7, 2008)

Everything sounds easy if this is not real situation....

Of course by lost penis I means lost of attraction, there will be no surgery to repair that.
I think that main problem is that for males life without satisfying sex is very hard (even if they are in love).


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## Jes (Mar 7, 2008)

Men aren't really any different than women, case by case, Jakob. If you're assuming that these things are harder for men than for women, because you only know what it's like to be a man, let me assure you that you are wrong. Anyway, many men experience erection problems with age. That's not always a reason for a divorce. And certainly, as a woman, I can envision a rich sex life with someone who loses the ability to have an erection. Is it my preference? No. Could I make do reasonably happily if I was in love? Yup.


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## jakub (Mar 7, 2008)

Jes said:


> Men aren't really any different than women, case by case, Jakob. If you're assuming that these things are harder for men than for women, because you only know what it's like to be a man, let me assure you that you are wrong. Anyway, many men experience erection problems with age. That's not always a reason for a divorce. And certainly, as a woman, I can envision a rich sex life with someone who loses the ability to have an erection. Is it my preference? No. Could I make do reasonably happily if I was in love? Yup.



Don't get me wrong.
I hear from many girls that they are more attracted to brain/inteligence/personality than mens, this is only reason why I said that, maybe I should be more specific.

I understand your point of view, but this is just partial solution. Can you imagine a man that loves ssbbw's (real hardcore FA?) which is with thin woman? Every walk outside home and seeing other ssbbw, will bring to him memories of something great what he is missing now. Even if he is in love, this will be a nightmare.

Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe only I have this kind of concerns.


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## Jes (Mar 7, 2008)

Clearly you're not the only person who has those concerns or we wouldn't have a thread (or 200) about the same issue. God knows I have memories of penises past that will never be relived again. *sigh* I understand yearning. Believe you me.

The situation is this: if the physical side is more important than the other things in your relationship, then you admit so and bail. It is what it is. If it's not, but you still yearn for something to be different, then welcome to Relationships, and you actively and constructively try to get to a place where you yearn less. Perhaps that's what the posters who ask these questions here are trying to do--find out how other people in similar situations dealt with that issue in their own relationships. You really do have 2 choices as I see it. You decide your partner MUST have a certain physical attribute and you don't get involved with, or you leave, a partner who doesn't, or you accept your partner for whatever it is she/he is, and you find healthy ways of going forward with that relationship, realizing the problem lies with you, even if it's about someone else.

I don't think it's easy, but relationships are never easy.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 7, 2008)

Jes said:


> You're either in or you're out.




Quoted for emphasis......some people just don't seem to get what a long term commitment aka marriage is about.....people will change over time because that is inevitable. 




Jes said:


> You've set up kind of a straw man, so I have to answer the situation you've created, but that's how I'd answer it. There's better and there's worse. That sounds like worse. But you don't have to make it even worse on TOP of the worse. If that's your inclination, get out.



That's what I got out of his question, too. It seemed like he felt so "punished" (even by something that was for health or by no choice and definitely wasn't intended as punishment) that she deserved "punishment" as well. 

Speaking of no penis men......what about all those ads for ED (erectile dysfunction). There seem to be a lot of men wanting to get it up again....is it safe to assume they might still have a partner that is interested in penis? 
How many married men get left over ED? Should a woman say that if he can't get it up for her, then it's her right to leave him? Especially if she was still the same weight or "Better" ? What if there were several men that showed interest in her/ found her attractive and had big long schlongs that worked like a dream? Gee, should she start looking at the other penis that was available? 
Seems kind of shallow to me......


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## Jes (Mar 7, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> What if there were several men that showed interest in her/ found her attractive and had big long schlongs that worked like a dream? Gee, should she start looking at the other penis that was available?



Yes! 

oh wait, you weren't asking me.



I'm not married and I never have been, and so do take me with a grain of salt, but if you're asking me my opinion, that's what it is, and certainly, an individual can only know what is right for him or her, but I do hope that if you're not happy in a relationship for any reason, and you've tried to come up with a solution for yourself, and it's not going to work, then put on your grown up pants and get out. I mean, right? Isn't that what we should all want for ourselves and our partners? Conditional relationships don't work too well.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 7, 2008)

I concur with that Jes...but also think that understanding what those "conditions" are ahead of time to be important. 
Some people don't seem to mind conditions.....I'm just a funny woman that pretends to be a fairy tale character on the net. Of course, it's "unreal" or "unreasonable' of me to expect someone to love me as much as the wedding vows say. After all, those are just formalities to get you to the real stuff, right?
I should be satisfied with a man the just wants to fuck me....forget about him actually LOVING me or anything. :doh:


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## jakub (Mar 7, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> That's what I got out of his question, too. It seemed like he felt so "punished" (even by something that was for health or by no choice and definitely wasn't intended as punishment) that she deserved "punishment" as well.



I don't get it....


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 7, 2008)

jakub said:


> I don't get it....




Same thing my ex would say....we should be married


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## Fascinita (Mar 8, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Same thing my ex would say....we should be married



lolol The women here today are on fire! :bow:


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## Shine35778 (Sep 19, 2013)

Hope it's OK to post this here and to bring this thread back from the graveyard. I made a video about this topic recently but forgot to mention it here, it's from August 2nd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocgOEefoPs It's in response to the original poster's post.


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