# Are BBWs undermining each other?



## superodalisque (Jul 9, 2010)

I was listening to Raqui's radio show tonight and this issue came up. Do you think BBWs undermine each other when they accept bad behavior from FAs. Does it encourage FAs to be less than they are capable of and not the mates that we really want when we accept disrespect? do we enable FAs that we care about and are our friends to do things that they shouldn't? are we creating monsters? or do we have nothing to do with how they turn out?


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## olwen (Jul 9, 2010)

IMO, everyone should be responsible for his or her own behavior. FA and FFAs who act badly know what they are doing. Any bbw who accepts bad behavior will suffer the same way any other woman who accepts bad behavior will suffer. It's on the person being pursued to know the difference, and unfortunately the best way to learn is thru experience...it's kinda like that saying, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. We just have to have enough self worth and common sense to reconize jerks up front.


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## Sweet Tooth (Jul 9, 2010)

I think many women, not just BBWs, do their fellow women a disservice by accepting crap behavior. Guys know that they can treat a woman poorly and, if they can't get away with it with one, there's always another desperate to get attention that they'll accept scraps and crumbs.

Of course, I hear plenty of women who don't think it's their responsibility to behave in a certain way to make life easier on others. I guess I'm wondering why they don't want to behave in a way that makes life easier on them by not having crap guys in their lives. <shrugs>

Perhaps some find it easier than dealing with weeding out the jerks or being alone... and both of those things can be really rough at times.

Edit to add: Just a thought here... I wonder if women just want to feel special, and delude themselves into thinking they're somehow immune to the bad behavior when they're really just ignoring it. It goes back to what another thread said about competition between women, I think, and wanting to believe we have the goods and the others don't. Having a man, even a crap one, can be seen as superior to being alone.

<off soap box now>


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## mossystate (Jul 9, 2010)

It is over 90 degrees, so certainly not a cold day anywhere...but I agree with olwen.

People know when they are behaving badly - especially those who have a formula of sorts. Would be wonderful if that type runs into, sooner rather than later, someone who takes none of their bullshit. But, as long as some have needs that are not all that healthy or examined...this dance will happen until the end of time. It is not about fat women or men who like fat women. 

I would never expect or depend on fat women, as some group, to be more than other human beings. Good and decent people doing good and decent things...wonderful...but I am not going to place ' blame ', while one group - the ' fa's ' - seems to be thought of as being made up of either monsters or hapless and bumbling babies. 

The man who is attempting to do me wrong is the person I am going to be upset with...not anybody who came before me. He made a choice...he could stop at any time. And, hell, he might run into a woman who took no crap, but unless he really and truly understood why his crap didn't work that time, he will relapse...so the focus has to be on his personality and lack of kindness, or sense of entitlement.


A very good thing is when individuals, no matter who or what they are, think they are deserving of good. If that is not there, then the jackals and the throbbing bungholes come to claim their prey.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 10, 2010)

Women in general (be they fat, thin, or anywhere inbetween) do this. It's just magnified in subcultures and other insular communities, which is why it seems like a fat scene thing. But in reality it applies across the board. 

And another thing...sometimes it's the women themselves who create the problem on purpose. High-drama psychos who get off on orchestrating chaos with their little scheming head games, and they use men as pawns to perpetuate it. 

That is one of the things that disturbed me most when I was involved in the local fat scene (LFS) There were several guys who got passed from woman to woman to woman and everybody knew what these guys were all about, but nobody seemed to care. What really blew my mind was to find out that some of these guys had been doing it for years and were bouncing from LFS to LFS. And that their behavior was no secret whatsoever, and new women were never warned about them. 

I saw more than a few women get involved in relationships that were absolute catastrophes, and once it was over, the other women came out of the woodwork to share their bad experiences with the same guy. WTF? Did the women just not give a damn? Did they fear being shunned for potentially running a man off? Did they want to see somebody else get screwed over to make them feel better about their own experience? 

I got called out by a couple of the LFS "queen bees" for warning new women about guys who were cheaters and players. Was told it's "not my place" to interfere. And even worse, there were instances where the Queen Bees set new women up with these douchebags knowing exactly what would happen. That was sicker than all hell! Why would you deliberately set somebody who was new and naive up with a guy who was bad news and was going to hurt them? Sick, sick, sick! 

And it wasn't just cheaters and players. There were men with STDs, who were sex offenders, abusers, financial predators, and even citizenship scammers. And they were allowed to use the LFSs as their personal hunting grounds because the behavior was tolerated. But to be fair, sometimes the women just didn't want to know. I tried to warn a woman about a man who was not just bad news, but BAD NEWS as in getting involved with him carried a legitimate safety risk, and she told me I was just jealous because he wanted her instead of me. I honestly hope he didn't victimize her or any of her female family members, but what good is a warning if you don't want to listen? 

The whole thing was just so much ick.

And like I said, it's not a fat thing, I have seen the exact same thing go down in other contexts. 

Tracy


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## msbard90 (Jul 10, 2010)

I think that any woman, BBW or not is undermining their own sense of self worth by accepting bad behavior from a male. IMO since BBW and FA are very much internet dating identifiers, and many (not all) people who online date have low self esteem, its not an unusual thing for those women to accept crap from guys who know they can get away with it. Off the web, most people do not look for a SO with the identifiers BBW and FA. In a way, the term BBW is undermining big women, as BHM is undermining big guys.

To add the term "beautiful" in BBW and "handsome" in BHM shows the lack of self esteem in fatty world. To me, I am a bigger woman. Beautiful is something I'll let others decide. I feel like the additions of "beautiful" and "handsome" are like, "well I'm big but TOTALLY BEAUTIFUL!!!! so date me date me!" as if the size factor hides your beauty so you have to give out a disclaimer. 

This brings me to my point. Yes there are some bbws who are undermining themselves. Some do not feel beautiful or they don't get enough attention. I know this because I was in this situation before. Any attention from an FA, a fatty's _prince charming_, is welcome attention to some ladies. To them it is as if someone is finally giving them attention and they'll put up with the crap as long as a "sexy" or "hot" or "gorgeous" is mixed in every few or so days. The attitudes of one BBW may open the door for the same FA to pursue other BBWs in hopes of getting another easy catch. I know this for a fact. I was recently contacted on AIM by a guy who when I asked his name, he replied "the lurker type". After I said, "Whats your dimensions handle", he replied, "I'm way hotter than you'll ever be, I thought you were going to be an easy one to get". So my assumptions are based on observations and experience, not mere BS. 

At any rate, it is up to the person being approached (the bbw/bhm) to decide whether or not the attention is welcome and to either accept it or deny it. We're all adults here (or at least supposed to be).


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

wow great responses and a lot to think about. i'm of two minds and every one of the posts definitely have a lot of truth to them. 

i agree that a messed up guy is just a messed up guy. he should and does know better. but what if he *IS* actively encouraged and aided as Tracyarts said to misbehave by other BBWs? what if inexperienced or naive BBWs are encouraged by others to accept that behavior? i've seen that myself. what if he is benefiting from the way BBWs allow him to circulate within the community without restraint? what if new victims are even being set up *FOR* him? what if he is always allowed to play the good guy and thats never questioned?

i agree that if you know something about someone or you have a critique of the community as a whole it can be very hard to say it because the jealous thing is often used to explain it away or discredit what you have to say especially to younger or less experienced women who are often targets. either you're jealous about a guy or other women. everyone behaves as though the community is the only time you will ever come in contact with a guy who might reciprocate your interest. so everyone you ever talk to or flirt with is treated like they are always your focus and your last and only hope even if you are involved with somebody outside of it all and don't feel the person at the gathering is your type. you get to be the bad girl just for turning down someone you aren't comfortable with. you are mean jealous and hateful. everything you say and do has something to do with this "rare" attraction that they think you should be so happy over.

a lot of people in the community never ask you if you are dating outside. its always assumed that you aren't unless you go out of your way to inform everyone. there have been lots of times when i was dating someone seriously and i never told anyone. it was odd to me how it was always assumed that i was looking even though i never said so and never showed very much interest in anyone. in the real world guys and other women almost always ask if you're seeing someone before they either flirt with you or assume there is something between you and someone else. sad to say, but the community seems to feel i'm more unwanted than the rest of the world does.

its definitely true that everyone of all sizes does this stuff to some extent but i have never seen it as much anywhere else as i have in the community. its improved a lot over the years and a lot of women are breaking out of it because they are just tired of being emotionally and intellectually restrained. i'm glad to see more women talking and telling their truth whatever it is. unfortunately there are still a lot of repercussions and people never feel totally comfortable saying what is really on their minds unless they are in a small group of friends. there is still a lot of pressure to go along with the program.

every FA is definitely responsible for his own actions but i wonder how realistic it is to expect anyone to ever improve if they are unrestrained, pandered to and even aided in the bs? if there were more restrictions and the threat of being unacceptable some FAs still might be an ass but is it possible they might be a slightly better behaved ass? what does i say about real community if some BBWs are truly not just allowing others to be used or hurt but are helping them to be?


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

mossystate said:


> It is over 90 degrees, so certainly not a cold day anywhere...but I agree with olwen.
> 
> People know when they are behaving badly - especially those who have a formula of sorts. Would be wonderful if that type runs into, sooner rather than later, someone who takes none of their bullshit. But, as long as some have needs that are not all that healthy or examined...this dance will happen until the end of time. It is not about fat women or men who like fat women.
> 
> ...



deserves repeating--especially the last paragraph


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

Sweet Tooth said:


> I think many women, not just BBWs, do their fellow women a disservice by accepting crap behavior. Guys know that they can treat a woman poorly and, if they can't get away with it with one, there's always another desperate to get attention that they'll accept scraps and crumbs.
> 
> 
> <off soap box now>



your soapbox looks good to me


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

msbard90 said:


> ... In a way, the term BBW is undermining big women, as BHM is undermining big guys.
> 
> To add the term "beautiful" in BBW and "handsome" in BHM shows the lack of self esteem in fatty world. To me, I am a bigger woman. Beautiful is something I'll let others decide. I feel like the additions of "beautiful" and "handsome" are like, "well I'm big but TOTALLY BEAUTIFUL!!!! so date me date me!" as if the size factor hides your beauty so you have to give out a disclaimer.
> 
> This brings me to my point. Yes there are some bbws who are undermining themselves. Some do not feel beautiful or they don't get enough attention. I know this because I was in this situation before. Any attention from an FA, a fatty's _prince charming_, is welcome attention to some ladies. To them it is as if someone is finally giving them attention and they'll put up with the crap as long as a "sexy" or "hot" or "gorgeous" is mixed in every few or so days. The attitudes of one BBW may open the door for the same FA to pursue other BBWs in hopes of getting another easy catch.).



great and interesting points


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## msbard90 (Jul 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> what does i say about real community if some BBWs are truly not just allowing others to be used or hurt but are helping them to be?




As an adult female, one should be aware that there are jerks and creeps out there. Whether or not she would like to heed the advice of her peers or not is her own perogative. As much as I would like to warn every girl of every creep, its just impossible to do so, and quite frankly is not my responsibility.


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

msbard90 said:


> As an adult female, one should be aware that there are jerks and creeps out there. Whether or not she would like to heed the advice of her peers or not is her own perogative. As much as I would like to warn every girl of every creep, its just impossible to do so, and quite frankly is not my responsibility.



yeah i know what you mean. i wish i didn't feel responsible sometimes in a way. it would be easier but i can't help it. its hard to help it when you look at somebody and think " she is the age where she could be my daughter". then you see her playing with her life and mental health. then you remember how full of promise your life was at her age and you see her limiting herself more and more everyday, so much that you know that she'll never ever get to have the experiences you were lucky enough to have. its just so hard to see people with so much potential literally throwing their life away close up.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 10, 2010)

" what does i say about real community if some BBWs are truly not just allowing others to be used or hurt but are helping them to be? "

I think that when there is that kind of imbalance among men and women in a group where the dating and mating game is a pretty big priority, there can be no real community. Especially among the majority gender, in this case the women. There were always SO many women and SO few men. The men had the market cornered. The women had to compete for them. And when there is that intense of a level of competition, not everybody plays nice. And it skews the expectations of either side. All the men have to do is show up. The women are the ones who have to bring everything to the table. The big joke back in the day was that the men could show up to the BBW events in their best t-shirt while the women were all dressed to the nines in sexy outfits with perfect hair, nails, and makeup. 

Lots of women who got involved in the fat scene were lacking in social experience. I met several who never had many friends, much less dated during their younger days, so they never had a chance to learn how to play the game. They never dealt with mean girls and players, and when faced with grown up versions of these high school archetypes, they were absolutely clueless and easy prey for both sides. They never developed the "radar" to know when a situation wasn't quite right and to be wary that they might be getting set up or taken advantage of. 

Here's a pretty common game that gets played by the core clique of queen bees in any subculture or social scene: If a pretty new girl shows up with stars in her eyes, what better way to remove her from the competition than to pretend to be her friend and then set her up with some loser who is going to monopolize her time and keep her occupied. I have watched that same shit go down since junior high school in many different groups. 

The players and settings might change, but the game remains the same. 

Tracy


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2010)

mossystate said:


> It is over 90 degrees, so certainly not a cold day anywhere...but I agree with olwen.
> 
> People know when they are behaving badly - especially those who have a formula of sorts. Would be wonderful if that type runs into, sooner rather than later, someone who takes none of their bullshit. But, as long as some have needs that are not all that healthy or examined...this dance will happen until the end of time. It is not about fat women or men who like fat women.
> 
> ...



Good to know we agree on something.


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

Tracy, i saw that happen not too long ago with a guy everyone knew had cheated on every girl he had ever been with in the community. he has never had a clean break up. they all know he is sneaky and a liar. he was dating a really beautiful girl lately. she called him on it in the open. some otherwise nice women actually defended him. he's going to go on doing the same thing. its his MO and they are helping him to be able to keep it by not admitting he has never been true to anyone. he just continues saying his exes were messed up. no one seems to believe any of the women ever. its interesting that the women he was with seem to be completely able to have relationships but he can't. i now that one is even married. it makes me wonder how women can be so blind and hard headed.


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## mossystate (Jul 10, 2010)

olwen said:


> Good to know we agree on something.



lol


........


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2010)

> in the real world guys and other women almost always ask if you're seeing someone before they either flirt with you or assume there is something between you and someone else. sad to say, but the community seems to feel i'm more unwanted than the rest of the world does.



Come on, that's not necessarily true. In the "real" world there are still players and they still want to have their cake and eat it too. They might not ask. They just hit on you and still try to get your number, and if you say you have a man they still try to convince you to leave your man for their sorry ass. That has nothing to do with being fat, and everything to do with a jerk being a jerk.




superodalisque said:


> yeah i know what you mean. i wish i didn't feel responsible sometimes in a way. it would be easier but i can't help it. its hard to help it when you look at somebody and think " she is the age where she could be my daughter". then you see her playing with her life and mental health. then you remember how full of promise your life was at her age and you see her limiting herself more and more everyday, so much that you know that she'll never ever get to have the experiences you were lucky enough to have. its just so hard to see people with so much potential literally throwing their life away close up.



You aren't responsible. People just have to make their own mistakes. It does suck to watch people acting foolish, but what can you really do about that? Unless someone asks me for my opinion I don't say anything. I used to be the kind of person to always butt in, but people tend to dislike that kind of interference and may be likely to tell you off rather than thank you.



Tracyarts said:


> " what does i say about real community if some BBWs are truly not just allowing others to be used or hurt but are helping them to be? "
> 
> I think that when there is that kind of imbalance among men and women in a group where the dating and mating game is a pretty big priority, there can be no real community. Especially among the majority gender, in this case the women. There were always SO many women and SO few men. The men had the market cornered. The women had to compete for them. And when there is that intense of a level of competition, not everybody plays nice. And it skews the expectations of either side. All the men have to do is show up. The women are the ones who have to bring everything to the table. *The big joke back in the day was that the men could show up to the BBW events in their best t-shirt while the women were all dressed to the nines in sexy outfits with perfect hair, nails, and makeup. *
> 
> ...



That is not particular to the bbw scene. I see that all the time where I live (I saw it in Louisiana recently too) with skinny people, and it drives me crazy. The girl is dressed to go out and the guy is wearing an oversized t-shirt, baggy jeans, a pair of sneakers, and possibly a doo rag. WTF? I'm not attracted to that look so I'd never go out with a guy who dressed like that, but if a date showed up to my door dressed like that I'd tell him to either go home and change or make a date for another evening when he has time to dress appropriately. 

The other bolded thing can be true tho. I didn't start really dating till after I turned 30 and I was inexperienced and got hurt by two of those jerks, but the experience I gained was invaluable. I just had to learn the hard way and now I know what to look for. If someone had tried to warn me, I'd have likely ignored them simply cause of the change to get laid on a regular basis. We all have to learn at some point I suppose....


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

olwen said:


> Come on, that's not necessarily true. In the "real" world there are still players and they still want to have their cake and eat it too. They might not ask. They just hit on you and still try to get your number, and if you say you have a man they still try to convince you to leave your man for their sorry ass. That has nothing to do with being fat, and everything to do with a jerk being a jerk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




-some good points here. maybe for me its generational and where i chose to go but people almost always ask me if i'm seeing someone. if i say yes then sometimes they continue or sometimes they don't but they don't often treat me as though i couldn't possibly have anybody as they do at BBW events where it NEVER comes up. 


- i know i'm not responsible but by saying nothing people take it as an agreement. i'm not sure i want to be seen as agreeing with something awful being done to someone. it just challenges my personal ethics in ways i don't feel comfortable with.

-yes men are awfully sloppy these days in general but at least IRL as a woman you have a choice of going to a venue that does not accept saggy jeans. but, at every BBW event i've gone to there is absolutely no dress code for FAs. at least IRL there are times when men have to be respectful or stay outside. if you do have a dress code at a BBW event a lot of guys will just show up sloppy and hang out in the lobby and not pay to get in. the organizers need their money--so no dress code. some FAs don't just show up in old jeans but wrinkled with holes and stains. i know that here in Atlanta no decent event will host a man to show up like that. you at least have to look clean.


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## TraciJo67 (Jul 10, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> The players and settings might change, but the game remains the same.
> 
> Tracy


 
I'd be alone for the rest of my life before I'd suffer the indignity of competing for a man. If it's a competition, he's not a prize I'd like to win.


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'd be alone for the rest of my life before I'd suffer the indignity of competing for a man. If it's a competition, he's not a prize I'd like to win.



me too its an idea i find depressing. i'd rather be alone than have to be with a guy i needed to run after.


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## mossystate (Jul 10, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'd be alone for the rest of my life before I'd suffer the indignity of competing for a man. If it's a competition, he's not a prize I'd like to win.



Christ almighty...yes ^. Have never done it...will never do it. And your second sentence is key. It is sometimes too easy to just see the women who are flailing about...and not the man who is sitting back and thinking, " come to papa ". Blah.


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> -some good points here. maybe for me its generational and where i chose to go but people almost always ask me if i'm seeing someone. if i say yes then sometimes they continue or sometimes they don't but they don't often treat me as though i couldn't possibly have anybody as they do at BBW events where it NEVER comes up.
> 
> 
> - i know i'm not responsible but by saying nothing people take it as an agreement. i'm not sure i want to be seen as agreeing with something awful being done to someone. it just challenges my personal ethics in ways i don't feel comfortable with.
> ...



...You know, I don't go clubbing. I've gone to bbw parties in the past and there were men who were dressed up and men who weren't. There were also women who were dressed up and women who were hardly dressed. Since those events - as any club atmosphere I'm sure - are total meat markets I'd expect a lot of people who attend are only looking to get laid and that is fine. Let em have their fun. I'm not interested in empty sex, so I don't go. 

I do however believe that every woman fat and thin at some point in her life will want to explore her sexuality as often as she can and with as many men as she wants. It can happen while she's younger or older, but it will eventually happen, especially if she's only been with one man for a really long time. I don't think there is any harm in that by itself, and every woman's experience will vary. I just think in the end that the bbw community is no different than any other community in that it's likely that everyone involved will have slept with or made out with or dated everyone else. Even if one guy has a bad experience with one girl and everyone knows about it cause they're all friends it still won't stop another guy in the circle of friends from snatching her up and getting along better with her than the other guy. C'est la vie. Nothing you can really do when hormones are involved.


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'd be alone for the rest of my life before I'd suffer the indignity of competing for a man. If it's a competition, he's not a prize I'd like to win.





superodalisque said:


> me too its an idea i find depressing. i'd rather be alone than have to be with a guy i needed to run after.





mossystate said:


> Christ almighty...yes ^. Have never done it...will never do it. And your second sentence is key. It is sometimes too easy to just see the women who are flailing about...and not the man who is sitting back and thinking, " come to papa ". Blah.



I'm with y'all. I'd rather be alone than deal with the drama.


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 10, 2010)

olwen said:


> ...You know, I don't go clubbing. I've gone to bbw parties in the past and there were men who were dressed up and men who weren't. There were also women who were dressed up and women who were hardly dressed. Since those events - as any club atmosphere I'm sure - are total meat markets I'd expect a lot of people who attend are only looking to get laid and that is fine. Let em have their fun. I'm not interested in empty sex, so I don't go.
> 
> I do however believe that every woman fat and thin at some point in her life will want to explore her sexuality as often as she can and with as many men as she wants. It can happen while she's younger or older, but it will eventually happen, especially if she's only been with one man for a really long time. I don't think there is any harm in that by itself, and every woman's experience will vary. I just think in the end that the bbw community is no different than any other community in that it's likely that everyone involved will have slept with or made out with or dated everyone else. Even if one guy has a bad experience with one girl and everyone knows about it cause they're all friends it still won't stop another guy in the circle of friends from snatching her up and getting along better with her than the other guy. C'est la vie. Nothing you can really do when hormones are involved.



I agree with this. It's no different in the gay community too (well insofar as Chicago is concerned). My partner and I don't really club in the LGBT scene for this reason. Eventually you get tired of seeing the same faces, same drama, etc. And your business gets around QUICK - people know who you're fucking, if you're burning, etc. It's just more than what we like to deal with being the low key homos that we are. lol I take pride in not being apart of the shenanigans and everyone doesn't know our business. That said, we still go out and attend certain events, but that isn't the whole of our entertainment - that subculture is only apart of it.


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## calauria (Jul 10, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'd be alone for the rest of my life before I'd suffer the indignity of competing for a man. If it's a competition, he's not a prize I'd like to win.



Yeah, competing for a man is not even in the equation.


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## superodalisque (Jul 16, 2010)

olwen said:


> ...You know, I don't go clubbing. I've gone to bbw parties in the past and there were men who were dressed up and men who weren't. There were also women who were dressed up and women who were hardly dressed. Since those events - as any club atmosphere I'm sure - are total meat markets I'd expect a lot of people who attend are only looking to get laid and that is fine. Let em have their fun. I'm not interested in empty sex, so I don't go.
> 
> I do however believe that every woman fat and thin at some point in her life will want to explore her sexuality as often as she can and with as many men as she wants. It can happen while she's younger or older, but it will eventually happen, especially if she's only been with one man for a really long time. I don't think there is any harm in that by itself, and every woman's experience will vary. I just think in the end that the bbw community is no different than any other community in that it's likely that everyone involved will have slept with or made out with or dated everyone else. Even if one guy has a bad experience with one girl and everyone knows about it cause they're all friends it still won't stop another guy in the circle of friends from snatching her up and getting along better with her than the other guy. C'est la vie. Nothing you can really do when hormones are involved.



i think this is realistic, but as far as community events go i wish there was more of a choice. at least IRL other women have a choice about the taste level of where they go. right now the only choice at community events is to go or to opt out. they all have varying degrees of slimy--generally on the high side. there are very few classy events. so the overall impression even for FAs who are decent guys who want somewhere to go is that there is nowhere to go. sometimes people would actually like an environment where there is more than just an opportunity for a hook up.


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## mercy (Jul 16, 2010)

I've never been to any BBW specific event, but judging by this thread I don't really want to... is it so much to ask for somewhere where I just have a dance and a drink and maybe a bit of a flirt without being stared at like I've escaped the circus?


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## superodalisque (Jul 16, 2010)

mercy said:


> I've never been to any BBW specific event, but judging by this thread I don't really want to... is it so much to ask for somewhere where I just have a dance and a drink and maybe a bit of a flirt without being stared at like I've escaped the circus?



its true that a LOT of FAs won't dance--even those who can. so the BBWs end up dancing with each other to a large extent or with one guy 5 or more deep in BBW partners at the same time. they do just sit at the table and stare for a large part. i love dancing and i have to go to a regular place to dance with a guy one to one as i like.


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## olwen (Jul 17, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> i think this is realistic, but as far as community events go i wish there was more of a choice. at least IRL other women have a choice about the taste level of where they go. right now the only choice at community events is to go or to opt out. they all have varying degrees of slimy--generally on the high side. there are very few classy events. so the overall impression even for FAs who are decent guys who want somewhere to go is that there is nowhere to go. sometimes people would actually like an environment where there is more than just an opportunity for a hook up.



I see what you mean about limited choices...It would be nice to just hang out with your friends and their friends and randomly catch someone's eye and end up dating. It seems to have happened that way for all my thin friends with relative ease, so why not with fat people?


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## Lamia (Jul 17, 2010)

I keep reading the title of this thread as "Are BBWs Mining under one another?"



I do think fat women need to stop letting themselves be used. We deserve respect. If a guy is used to using fat women, one after another, they're going to assume we're all doormats. It's in our own best interest and those of our sisters to expect common courtesy, respect, love, devotion etc.


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## exile in thighville (Jul 17, 2010)

mercy said:


> I've never been to any BBW specific event, but judging by this thread I don't really want to... is it so much to ask for somewhere where I just have a dance and a drink and maybe a bit of a flirt without being stared at like I've escaped the circus?



this really is not what BBW events are like, even if specific people who know specific other people are aware of some undercurrent


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## Tracyarts (Jul 17, 2010)

" this really is not what BBW events are like, even if specific people who know specific other people are aware of some undercurrent "

Actually, it really is what they are like. Specific people and undercurrents aside. The skeeve factor might vary some depending on region and place in time, but it's pretty much a fact that when you get a disproportionate number of women together in a sexually charged setting where many are competing for the attentions of a handful of men, they are more likely to either play dirty against each other or lower their standards so that they can up their chances of getting lucky. And as a result, the men know that all they have to bring to the table is themselves and then wait and take their pick of the prospects. It's all about the social dynamics. Exchange "BBW" with any other descriptive term, and if the same conditions are there, the same behavior results. I've seen it play out in multiple different subcultures and social scenes. 

Tracy


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## Myn (Jul 17, 2010)

I've never been to an event, but the phrasing of Tracyarts's comment reminded me of a quote from "Waiting to Exhale" 

"Hell, yeah, I'm single and desperate and have no morals and when you turn your back, I'm gonna flirt my butt off and then take your man."

We girls definitely get just as competitive as guys ever can, if not more.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 17, 2010)

exile in thighville said:


> this really is not what BBW events are like, even if specific people who know specific other people are aware of some undercurrent



Gotta agree. I've been to lots of events all over the country and while there are some people who attend that behave that way its never been the majority. I have always said a person is going to get out of those events whatever they are looking to. If you go looking to have a good time then chances are you will. If you go looking for a one night stand, you'll find that too. Same goes for girls acting like high school kids, and its nothing different than you'd see in a mainstream, non-bbw focused bar.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 18, 2010)

" I have always said a person is going to get out of those events whatever they are looking to. "

Absolutely.

But regardless of whether you choose to participate in it, choose to ignore it, or go about your business blissfully unaware of it; the fact of the matter is that the sleaze and drama is still there and still gets perpetuated by the people who in some way benefit from it. And until the women who are the problem get some self-respect and stop wallowing in the gutter and demand a higher level of treatment from a higher grade of men, and stop backstabbing and clawing at each other for the attention and affection of *any* man, then the cheaters, losers, players, users, and abusers will have a bountiful hunting ground with prey that not only comes to them, but often competes for them. 

And as I have said before, this happens in all kinds of subcultures and social circles, it is not a fat thing, it's a scene thing. 

Tracy


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## Blackjack (Jul 18, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> " this really is not what BBW events are like, even if specific people who know specific other people are aware of some undercurrent "
> 
> Actually, it really is what they are like. Specific people and undercurrents aside. The skeeve factor might vary some depending on region and place in time, but it's pretty much a fact that when you get a disproportionate number of women together in a sexually charged setting where many are competing for the attentions of a handful of men, they are more likely to either play dirty against each other or lower their standards so that they can up their chances of getting lucky. And as a result, the men know that all they have to bring to the table is themselves and then wait and take their pick of the prospects. It's all about the social dynamics. Exchange "BBW" with any other descriptive term, and if the same conditions are there, the same behavior results. I've seen it play out in multiple different subcultures and social scenes.
> 
> Tracy



Have you ever actually been to any events? I don't just mean stuff like club nights, I mean actual events- bashes, meetups, whatever. The ones that I've been to- in several states over the past three and a half years- "getting lucky" was far from being top priority for most people.


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## spiritangel (Jul 18, 2010)

I think it depends on the people involved ect

for me I am part of a great yahoo group (that has sadly kinda died off) where I met my ex

the people there are wonderful and amazing ect and it was a great community wich then lead me to look for other places

I found an Aussie chatroom on Yahoo made what I thought were some great new friends and after going to an event was totally torn strips off and treated like garbage all of wich I had a few people chat to me in private about to warn me what was being said.

The sad part is the two women who were doing it were people I had gone out of my way to help and be nice to in fact one of them had a partner who had died before his time due to a hospital negligence and was my first real experience with mediumship, I never charged her for her readings or event thought of it

however I was asked by a few other people to do readings at this event and I checked and re checked with the hostess that it was ok because as I said to her we could always just go sit in a cafe to do the readings no big

I was quite shocked when after people who were not staying the night left the event people started bitching about the people who had just left I was stunned to say the least (mostly becuase I truly dont surround myself with gossipy backstabby people and had been talking to these people for months and months with no hint of this)

and when I got back home I found out that they had been saying stuff about me not only behind my back but in the chat room to everyone I was appalled

not only that but one of them actually had the gall to sms steve and ask if he was serious about me cause she thought he was kinda cute ect

then they set about to try and destroy my relationship with steve (we were only dating at the time but we were exclusively dating) 

it totally turned me off any sort of size acceptance group and what not for quite a long time

I accept that in any real life or online group there are gonna be those who do try to undermine you and the group 

but I truly dont have the patience or the time to be mired down by those people, I have been lucky to meet some amazing people on Dimms and other places and for that I am grateful but would never ever ever think to be mean nasty or backstabby to any of them 

I am a big believer in dont say anything behind someones back you would not say to their face and I tend to live by that

If I have a problem with someone or something that has been said I will speak up and address the issue as it happends rather than let it fester or bitch to other people life is far to short and there are enough people who are bitter and twisted enough without me adding to that negativity


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## Tracyarts (Jul 18, 2010)

" Have you ever actually been to any events? I don't just mean stuff like club nights, I mean actual events- bashes, meetups, whatever. "

Mostly between '89-'99 but over the past decade have gone to different kinds of events now and then. Either when a friend who was interested in checking it out didn't want to go alone, or when a friend who was still in the scene invited me. One of my friends had been involved a lot more recently but he had some bad experiences and didn't stick around long. But from what he described, things haven't changed much. 

I learned the hard way that the less you get involved in a scene, the more fun you can have with it. In the '90's I was really involved in the organization and event planning side of things, as well as friends with some people who were invested in it to the point where it was their sole social outlet. And that's where I saw a lot of the really ugly things that go on under the surface. It turned me off of the whole thing and I didn't want to be a part of it anymore. I found that my comfort zone is an occasional casual attendee. It's just a whole lot easier to avoid the drama and dysfunction that way.

Also, I'm pretty much a moral hard-ass and the really ugly stuff just seemed like too much bad karma to keep exposing myself to. I didn't want to get sucked any further into a situation where it was acceptable to enable and encourage self-destructive behavior as well as no big deal to participate in deception, betrayal, and exploitation of others. I wanted to be a part of something that truly enriched people's lives, not just paid lip service to it. 

Tracy


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## calauria (Jul 18, 2010)

Myn said:


> I've never been to an event, but the phrasing of Tracyarts's comment reminded me of a quote from "Waiting to Exhale"
> 
> "Hell, yeah, I'm single and desperate and have no morals and when you turn your back, I'm gonna flirt my butt off and then take your man."
> 
> We girls definitely get just as competitive as guys ever can, if not more.



I don't see how any woman would want a man who can be taken away. Doesn't sound like a very good catch...LOL!!


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## calauria (Jul 18, 2010)

I have a very long history of toxic frienships with women. I never understood what happened. We would be fine, then gradually they started having this attitude. Making snide remarks, trying to make fun of me with their other friends. Thin friends and fat friends did this. I would ask what was wrong. Did I do anything to upset them? They would say everything was fine, but still things remained the same and progressively got worse. Until I just decided to end the relationship by distancing myself from them, since I could not get any straight talk from them.

Because of all the psycho, dramatic relationships I've had with women and men in the past, I'm more of a distant person. Yes, I'm nice and friendly with people, hang out and all, but I just don't get emotionally close, anymore. I just needed a very long break from all the drama and heartache.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 18, 2010)

" I don't see how any woman would want a man who can be taken away. Doesn't sound like a very good catch...LOL!! "

Yeah. But for some women it's good enough to settle for. Also it's a kind of twisted ego boost for others. I used to know one who specifically went after married or otherwise involved men because her mind set was that if he "chose" her over his wife/girlfriend, that meant that he wanted her more because she was more desireable. It was like she won some kind of competition. That really blew my mind. 

And also, something to keep in mind: If he left her for you, he'll leave you for somebody else. And if he'll cheat on her with you, he'll cheat on you with somebody else. I have seen those two truths bite SO many women in the ass over the years. I guess that if you're only in it for the fun and games, then it's up to you to decide whether you're okay with choosing to engage in behavior that hurts other women. If you are, then that's kinda sad and pathetic actually. I've listened to women (in the fat scene and elsewhere) justify such behavior choices by saying things like "you can't take something that isn't being offered" and "it's not my responsibility to keep anybody else's vows/commitments". And that's just a weak ass bullshit cop out. If you know that he is with somebody when you meet him, and choose to become involved with him before he breaks up with his partner, or behind his partner's back without her knowing; then you're part of the problem. No matter what kind of spin you might put on it, you are part of the problem. 

Tracy


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## Sweet Tooth (Jul 18, 2010)

Tracyarts, everything you're saying, I've lived. Ugh. Wish I could rep you a gazillion times over for speaking truth.

It's not to say that there is nothing good about these events. I love going to bashes and spending time with friends, but I still see the things that made me leave NAAFA back in the 90s.


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## exile in thighville (Jul 18, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> Mostly between '89-'99 but over the past decade have gone to different kinds of events now and then. Either when a friend who was interested in checking it out didn't want to go alone, or when a friend who was still in the scene invited me. One of my friends had been involved a lot more recently but he had some bad experiences and didn't stick around long. But from what he described, things haven't changed much.



i think even if you still have a bad experience at a bash between '00-'10 it would still be very different from attending a bash in the pre-internet era.

but besides that there are just too many variables to pin on a whole bash: are you hanging out with dramatic people to begin with? are they competitive? are they they to find their soul mate or a one-night stand? or for that matter, did they attend with a specific motive or goal in mind other than having fun and seeing where the night takes them? are you attending an afterparty or a hotel suite party? are you going swimming? to any of the dinners?

there are really just too many things to do at a bash to imagine someone not being able to escape drama with ease (unless with it's your roommate?). but for the most part, as with everything else in life, i think the people who end up dealing with drama mostly invite it, or at least have trouble avoiding it.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jul 18, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> And also, something to keep in mind: If he left her for you, he'll leave you for somebody else. And if he'll cheat on her with you, he'll cheat on you with somebody else.



Too true. It happened to a lady I know. And she went into it with her eyes open, _knowing_ that he would eventually dump her for someone else; she said (afterwards) that she loved him so much she figured whatever time she had with him would be worth it.

Go figure.


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## exile in thighville (Jul 18, 2010)

you think no one good has ever left someone for someone else before?


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 18, 2010)

Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in high school, I had a bf that tried to get me into a fight with his ex-gf......

I dumped him and she had her new bf beat him up. 


I thought that was some kind of poetic justice.

Don't fight over anyone.


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## LovelyLiz (Jul 19, 2010)

This isn't something I've really had to deal with before, simply because for pretty much my entire life my female friends have been quite slim (it just worked out that way). So I never had the feeling we were competing for men - I just figured, hey, they win! No competition necessary. So it wasn't even something that registered with me. I don't think they felt threatened by me either, that I would somehow try to snatch up one of their dating prospects; partly just because I'm a good friend, and partly because I guess up until the past 4-5 years I didn't really think of myself as really desirable or datable, so I guess they didn't think of that as a key part of my identity either. I was the clichéd "fat friend" when it came to issues of dating.

But now that I've gone several times to a couple of the BBW dance clubs here in Southern California, I have seen more of the jealousy and competition and just general bitchiness to other women around specific men in the BBW community. I think my fatness mostly shielded me from that in the midst of my thin friends. Even in a BBW environment, though, I still haven't really been able to shake the feeling that if there is a competition for a man, I am not a contender. Here on Dimensions even, I will not really engage with any guy other ladies seem to have set their eyes or affections on (which is most of them...lol).

Maybe it's a sign of some residual low self-esteem that needs to be expunged - but honestly, I'm very happy not to compete for men. It just seems like a way to ruin friendships, and also a way for men to be encouraged to sink to the lowest common denominator in terms of how they forge relationships with women. I'd rather be single than enter into that (as evidenced by my singleness... ).


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## wrestlingguy (Jul 19, 2010)

So, to try to bring this back to SuperO's original post, what constitutes "bad behavior" on the part of FA's?

Is it the crap that's said by way of PM's to you in a chat room about "hooking up", and describing what they want to do with you?

Or, is it them trying do sex you up at your local (or not so local) bash or BBW dance?

There are all different kinds of guys in the "community", just as in real life. Some are great, some.......well, not so much.

I think SuperO's question was related to whether acceptance of any bad behavior on the part of FA's makes it more difficult for other women in the community.

The not so nice guys who come to chat rooms, or PM you, or head to bashes or dances are simply playing law of averages. They're like the dogs trained by Pavlov, with the fat girl who entertains them being the prize after the dinner bell rings. If she hadn't existed in his "adult" life at least once, he wouldn't come back to repeat this behavior over and over again. 

I also think that BlackJack made a good point about "getting lucky" not being the intent of most people who attend bashes and events. Look, even though I run a semi annual event, I don't have my head in my ass. I know that any time you put beautiful women, and men who are attracted to them in the same building, something is going to happen, and sometimes it does.

In spite of that, generally *most* of the people who come to our event here in NJ are there for socializing, and a sense of community. We work hard to ensure that those who attend our events see that, which is why we schedule talent like size positive singer Meghan Tonjes, director Kira Nerruskaya, and even musician/comedian AJ Confessore (CC Banana) at our weekend bashes. 

When Berna and I started the NJ Bash, what was first and foremost in our minds was to create an experience where people can come together as friends, get comfortable in an environment where you can enjoy who you are in this group of people second, and third, find romance, get lucky, or both........

I know of some events that promote the sex part of the weekend, and I simply don't support those. For me, the people who run them are no better than pimps, and I won't put money in their pockets for being such.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 19, 2010)

Overall, there is nothing different about fat people except that they're fat, and nothing different about FA except they are attracted to fatties.

There are men (and women) who are rude, dishonest, mean, and disrespectful. There are fat and thin people who have those qualities as well. I honestly can not think of a single personality trait that is specific to fat people, or of any type of social behaviour that is more or less appropriate when done with fat people and FA as compared with skinny people and non FAs.

I used to work in a bar. There were patrons who came in to hit on anything that moved, and patrons who came in to watch sports or just enjoy a few cocktails and socialize. There were the regular predators to "watch out for" and the regulars who were simply polite and well mannered and did sometimes meet others with whom they socialized.


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## bigmac (Jul 19, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> But now that I've gone several times to a couple of the BBW dance clubs here in Southern California, I have seen more of the jealousy and competition and just general bitchiness to other women around specific men in the BBW community.



The Southern California dance clubs are the worst (at least they were a few years ago when I was still on in the game). In addition to terrible music they seemed to attract critical masses of disagreeable people. This makes it hard for normal people to kick back and have fun. Last time I went a guy queuing next to me in the restroom was going on and on about how "he always scores here" and "how anyone can get laid in this place" -- and this guy was no prize. Later that night the very loud girls a few tables over almost started a brawl with another group. Not the kind of atmosphere to meet someone for even a casual relationship 

I still have a hard time believing that these guys put Pam's Big Difference Dances out of business.


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## Ruffie (Jul 20, 2010)

I think that women are inherently competitive with each other. The good news is that we can evolve from that. The bad news is that it wrecks havoc on your self esteem until you do.

I work with teens and see the girls competing over some guy, competing with each other for status, taking crap about each other, and yes even fighting verbally and physically with each other. Well you say this is teenage behaviour, but I have seen the same played out in many large size communities and hell yes in real life with supposed adults. They key I have found is to find our community of "real" people who love us for who we are. They don't care if we don't wear fancy clothes, have a beautiful home, a great vehicle, or loads of cash. The accept our faults and embrace our strengths. The rest of the folks have to be put out of that inner circle. I have former friends that I really loved, but when I was not willing to live in their shadow, or found them undermining me in some way, it was time to move on. Online in most cases unless someone has really wronged me I will be polite and say hello in chat, but am careful what is said and to be honest stopped sharing personal information when they were around. People forget that if they are gossiping with you they are likely to gossip about you and have no trouble sharing with people what you have said. Now in some cases that is just to see what you will say so they can carry it back to the source and they can dish. BUt in other cases its to give one a heads up, so that you do not continue to have misplaced trust. So women can be incredibly supportive on the other side of this coin. We just need to remember the Maya Angelou quote "When people show you who they are the first time-beleive them!"


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## Jes (Jul 20, 2010)

That quote is brilliant, Ruffie.

Anyway, it's called living in a patriarchy. Any group in a lower position on the totem pole will claw, scratch and scream for validation from a group higher up. We turn on ourselves and we turn on each other. It's as old as time, and not inherent to women, or women, or other groups (depending on the way a given community is organized).


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## superodalisque (Jul 21, 2010)

Sweet Tooth said:


> Tracyarts, everything you're saying, I've lived. Ugh. Wish I could rep you a gazillion times over for speaking truth.
> 
> It's not to say that there is nothing good about these events. I love going to bashes and spending time with friends, but I still see the things that made me leave NAAFA back in the 90s.



i got her for you


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## superodalisque (Jul 21, 2010)

bigmac said:


> The Southern California dance clubs are the worst (at least they were a few years ago when I was still on in the game). In addition to terrible music they seemed to attract critical masses of disagreeable people. This makes it hard for normal people to kick back and have fun. Last time I went a guy queuing next to me in the restroom was going on and on about how "he always scores here" and "how anyone can get laid in this place" -- and this guy was no prize. Later that night the very loud girls a few tables over almost started a brawl with another group. Not the kind of atmosphere to meet someone for even a casual relationship
> 
> I still have a hard time believing that these guys put Pam's Big Difference Dances out of business.



i have heard this a lot too. it seems the more desperate the women in an area feel the nastier the bashes and clubs tend to be. the fighting and hair pulling are way over the top. and like you say no one decent wants to be in that atmosphere. so not only does it attract that kind of crowd but it runs the calmer crowd away.


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## superodalisque (Jul 21, 2010)

could you keep this post and delete the other--it is a double post



LoveBHMS said:


> Overall, there is nothing different about fat people except that they're fat, and nothing different about FA except they are attracted to fatties.
> 
> There are men (and women) who are rude, dishonest, mean, and disrespectful. There are fat and thin people who have those qualities as well. I honestly can not think of a single personality trait that is specific to fat people, or of any type of social behaviour that is more or less appropriate when done with fat people and FA as compared with skinny people and non FAs.
> 
> I used to work in a bar. There were patrons who came in to hit on anything that moved, and patrons who came in to watch sports or just enjoy a few cocktails and socialize. There were the regular predators to "watch out for" and the regulars who were simply polite and well mannered and did sometimes meet others with whom they socialized.



i can understand this and even agree with it to a point . but the difference is that not everyone IRL comes to a bar with a big monkey on his back. when you go to a BBW event most people do. thats why they are there --because they aren't finding it easy and seamless to function as they like in the rest of society. an average woman may feel fat but a BBW IS fat. FAs have their angst as well. these are over and above the regular situations that most people face in the social arena. they add to the drama and the stress. anyone who observes any society or group will tell you that the more stress its members are under the more likely it is that there will be conflict--so no its not the exact same as everyone else. 

add to all that the lack and sometimes complete lack of social experiences of adults well out of their teens who should know better than to behave the way that they do but don't have much self control because of fright, nervousness, desperation, poor self image and an unattended to sex drive. then note the fact that bashes operate only on a sex scene level. unlike the rest of the world you don't find many couples billing and cooing in corners that much. you don't see hand holding. you don't generally see any signs of people falling in love with intention that you do in other places. there is barely anything romantic about it at all. at least elsewhere there is a certain percentage of obvious coupling going on that doesn't make it unusual for people to at least find some type of emotional satisfaction as a couple at least occasionally depending on their wants.

why is it like this? in my opinion its because right now its all a lot of the women think they're worth. i think there are quite a few fat women who are comfortable with being an object or being told who and what they should be, do and think. they still don't really believe they are a whole and complete woman capable of actually inspiring love in anyone just yet but are trying to get there. because of socialization inside of the community they begin thinking that every man only views them through a porthole of a body they personally find ugly and unattractive and that they also have no other attributes anybody else could value above their body. 

i think there are a lot of guys who like it that way because they find it easy to take advantage of women who don't know their own personal worth and make excuses for an FAs obvious short comings. those excuses are both a blessing and a curse. it makes it okay for the naturally lazy and disrespectful to continue being so and it tars nice men with that ne'er do well messed up FA stereotype. the not so nice ones threaten women who challenge the status quo with defacto expulsion from the community of "rare men who are attracted to fat women" . worse yet they threaten to expose a BBWs deepest darkest secrets in order to discredit them or debase them. so they garner their compliance through threats that the ugly fat woman will always be alone and on the outside where she has been and fears being again. women fold based on an untrue presumption thats still the false cornerstone of the community --that no one wants a fatgirl but FAs. so she feels she's often limited to competing for a small number of generally substandard malsocialized chemically unbalanced guys with mental, sexual and physical disorders who identify with the community and all of its negative assumptions about BBWs. 

the normal healthy men who won't agree that a fat woman is somehow a substandard freak who needs to always be controlled and told what to do and how to behave are pushed out or at the very least to the periphery where they watch disgusted while the women that they truly admire are purposefully pimped out and degraded by guys with low self esteem for their own personal power and self aggrandizement to a point that it nauseates them to even participate anymore.


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 21, 2010)

Self awareness = key to it all


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## Tracyarts (Jul 21, 2010)

This describes exactly the kind of experience my friend had with the local BBW community. He had read about the events online and had chatted with some women in the scene who invited him to an event. It sounded like something he wanted to check out in person and they seemed like people he'd like to get to know better. But, after the few experiences he had in "real life" with the local BBW scene wound up all being bad ones, he decided it just wasn't for him. He's a nice guy who respects women and happens to find a lot of bigger women attractive. But he's not into aggressive sexuality or objectifying/fetishizing women. He even got accused of being a fat-hater, which is absurd. But I guess since he didn't treat them the way they expected to be treated, his motives were suspect. 

" the normal healthy men who won't agree that a fat woman is somehow a substandard freak who needs to always be controlled and told what to do and how to behave are pushed out or at the very least to the periphery where they watch disgusted while the women that they truly admire are purposefully pimped out and degraded by guys with low self esteem for their own personal power and self aggrandizement to a point that it nauseates them to even participate anymore. "


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 22, 2010)

> i think there are a lot of guys who like it that way because they find it easy to take advantage of women who don't know their own personal worth and make excuses for an FAs obvious short comings. those excuses are both a blessing and a curse. it makes it okay for the naturally lazy and disrespectful to continue being so and it tars nice men with that ne'er do well messed up FA stereotype. the not so nice ones threaten women who challenge the status quo with defacto expulsion from the community of "rare men who are attracted to fat women" . worse yet they threaten to expose a BBWs deepest darkest secrets in order to discredit them or debase them. so they garner their compliance through threats that the ugly fat woman will always be alone and on the outside where she has been and fears being again. women fold based on an untrue presumption thats still the false cornerstone of the community --that no one wants a fatgirl but FAs. so she feels she's often limited to competing for a small number of generally substandard malsocialized chemically unbalanced guys with mental, sexual and physical disorders who identify with the community and all of its negative assumptions about BBWs.



I wonder how it is that your and Tracyarts experience with the bash scene is so different from Phil and Blackjack's where both of them say most attendees have a good time and most people behave themselves.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 22, 2010)

" you think no one good has ever left someone for someone else before? "

If you're involved in a NSA kind of relationship, then it's all fair game. No strings, no commitments, no expectations. It's fun while it lasts, but you know up front that there is nothing tying you to that person. 

But if you're involved in a committed relationship and ditch your partner for whatever Shiny New Toy that happens to catch your eye, then that's not so much the kind of behavior that anyone "good" would engage in. If you're committed to somebody, and unsatisfied to the point where you'd consider trading them in for a new model, then the proper way to handle it is to end the relationship you're in, then go look for somebody else. Not stick around until something better comes along and then bail on your partner for the Shiny New Toy. 

But yeah, moral line in the sand... "no one good" who is in a relationship where there is a mutual understanding of a commitment to each other will dump their partner for a Shiny New Toy. Unless part of your commitment is that it's only good until something more interesting comes along. Which I guess some people could agree to if they were cool with that.

Tracy


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jul 22, 2010)

Tracyarts;1510262But if you're involved in a committed relationship and ditch your partner for whatever Shiny New Toy that happens to catch your eye said:


> Not an honorable way to behave, I agree. And I am sure some people act this way because they totally lack integrity. But I suspect that there are others who hang on to an unsatisfactory relationship out of the fear of loneliness -- or the fear that, if they give up the partner they're unhappy with, no one else will come along -- who are unable to let go until the appearance of a Shiny New Toy makes it "safe" to take action. I'm NOT condoning this sort of thing: I'm merely suggesting that sometimes this kind of behavior may be motivated more by fear and weakness than outright malevolence.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 22, 2010)

I wrote this response in the general fat hate thread, but I thought it also applied to this discussion.

Women hate on/are critical of other women often due to internalized sexism. This is true for fat, thin and in-between women.

Definition: Internalized sexism is the involuntary internalization by women of the sexist messages that are present in their societies and culture. It also the way in which women reinforce sexism by utilizing and relaying sexist messages that they’ve internalized.

Read more here.


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## sweet&fat (Jul 22, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I wrote this response in the general fat hate thread, but I thought it also applied to this discussion.
> 
> Women hate on/are critical of other women often due to internalized sexism. This is true for fat, thin and in-between women.
> 
> ...



I think this is very true. Undoubtedly true. In addition, it's odd to put a group of people together based on physicality and expect them all to get along/support each other as people. Some do, some don't. Some people are supportive, some are selfish, some are just straight-up nasty regardless of who they're dealing with, just as there are in any other place in the world. 

It's a forced bond that can be a wonderful thing but is in fact quite difficult to negotiate.


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## superodalisque (Jul 23, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> I wonder how it is that your and Tracyarts experience with the bash scene is so different from Phil and Blackjack's where both of them say most attendees have a good time and most people behave themselves.



maybe because they are not fat women? maybe because Phil runs one of the very few fairly decent bashes? and even there he advises women to be careful because not all of the people who show up are the core supporting members who tend to at least try to take a stab at creating a decent atmosphere at least in public. maybe you should ask Phil about the stories he hears in confidence or about other bashes. it might be interesting and enlightening for you to attend a few more yourself and really get to know people on a personal level? Re: BJ i can't speak for him and he doesn't speak for me. 

besides all of that why does either Tracy or i need a guy to validate our viewpoint as actual fat women? we do have eyes. we also have ears to hear what other women say about their experiences privately. many of which these guys will never be privy to because the women involved often find the whole thing too embarrassing and painful to talk about with the vast majority of guys. i think your question ties into the point that was made about internal sexism by 30s girl. why can't you just take an actual fat woman's word without a man's opinion to back it up anyway? that might be a good question to ask yourself. or do you think we are all irrational and always misreading whats going on and what our friends tell us. maybe our fat blinds us to the point that we don't know whats happening to us even in private? maybe a better question you need to ask why you need so much verification and approval of our ideas from people who aren't even fat. why not from other fat people who've had different experiences?


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 23, 2010)

I never said that Phil or Blackjack spoke for anyone, simply that their speaking for the bash scene sounded like a different scenario than what you described. I'm not saying they are, or should be used to validate anyone else's experience and both of them would no doubt agree. Maybe they're not fat but each is an open FA and I would be very very very shocked if both of them have not had fat women talk with them about anything and everything that goes on in the scene.


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## superodalisque (Jul 23, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> I never said that Phil or Blackjack spoke for anyone, simply that their speaking for the bash scene sounded like a different scenario than what you described. I'm not saying they are, or should be used to validate anyone else's experience and both of them would no doubt agree. Maybe they're not fat but each is an open FA and I would be very very very shocked if both of them have not had fat women talk with them about anything and everything that goes on in the scene.



you have to realize for the most part they are only speaking about one bash.


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## Blackjack (Jul 23, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> you have to realize for the most part they are only speaking about one bash.



Not sure where you got that from this:



Blackjack said:


> The ones that I've been to- in several states over the past three and a half years



And no, I'm not a fat woman, but word _does _get around, and guys _do _hear things. So your claim that FAs won't hear the gossip that women are privy to is bullshit.

You also don't need "validation", and I was in no way implying that you did; I was simply noting the massive difference between the experiences that I've had and those that Tracy was discussing. And that's the reason why I wasn't "an actual fat woman's word without a man's opinion to back it up"- it's because it's not a matter of opinion but experiences. We've had very different ones. I was trying to figure out what might factor into that- environment, when the events took place that she went to, that sort of thing- not to discredit her but to understand why her experiences are overwhelmingly negative when I've seen the things she describes less frequently.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 23, 2010)

For me, experiencing a lot of the negativity at the events and with the groups, was simply an effect of being involved on more than a superficial level. It's basic group dynamics. The more involved you are, the more you see and hear and experience. If I were to just go to a bash, pay my money at the door, have a good time, while only casually socializing with other attendees, then I might see signs of bad things happening here and there but never really know what was going on. 

Tracy


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## Blackjack (Jul 24, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> For me, experiencing a lot of the negativity at the events and with the groups, was simply an effect of being involved on more than a superficial level. It's basic group dynamics. The more involved you are, the more you see and hear and experience. If I were to just go to a bash, pay my money at the door, have a good time, while only casually socializing with other attendees, then I might see signs of bad things happening here and there but never really know what was going on.
> 
> Tracy



I've been involved with the events as well- although not on a planning level, more than just on a superficial level and certainly enough so that I would notice if this negative stuff were more widespread in the ones that I've attended. And Phil _runs _bashes, so there's no reason why his input should be less valid based on level of involvement.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> For me, experiencing a lot of the negativity at the events and with the groups, was simply an effect of being involved on more than a superficial level. It's basic group dynamics. The more involved you are, the more you see and hear and experience. If I were to just go to a bash, pay my money at the door, have a good time, while only casually socializing with other attendees, then I might see signs of bad things happening here and there but never really know what was going on.
> 
> Tracy



i think a lot of folks know and understand exactly what you're talking about and have their own reasons for pretending not to understand and being in denial. one may be active participation in some of the kinds of activities and low standards you're talking about and/ or having knowledge of them. but besides all of that i'm not sure every bash is the same across the country and a handful of dims related bashes on the east coast is probably not going to get you a very blunt answer because no one wants to hurt anyone's feelings. 

also i don't think Phil ever said those things do not happen. he isn't that naive or dishonest. he was mainly talking about his own. i'm well aware of what he thinks about many other bashes and i agree with him. and i'm also aware of why he is so concerned about it happening at his. he knows as great as his intentions are he can't control everyone who shows up even if he would like to. at least he has some control over public actions but thats not always where the juice is and we all know that.

the main reason things aren't improving is because of the pretense created by people benefiting from the status quo. its nice to be able to show up with a duffle bag, dressing like a bum when BBWs are in gowns, having BBWs provide your room, sleeping with them and having them keep quiet out of personal embarrassment because you won't even show the smallest courtesy during or after. 

the worst part is the superior attitude of people who claim these actions as a part of being young but yet continue them and still feel happy and validated in criticsizing other FAs who've done much less to damage the image of FAs and BBWs. Just because people have been too nice to say it out loud doesn't mean its not happening. so don't believe everything you hear from everyone on the forums. there is a lot of holier than thou going on uncalled. maybe thats another reason we might be undermining each other. we bow to the pressure that makes it hard to call bs on people because we might actually like them despite their bs.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> the main reason things aren't improving is because of the pretense created by people benefiting from the status quo. its nice to be able to show up with a duffle bag, dressing like a bum when BBWs are in gowns, having BBWs provide your room, sleeping with them and having them keep quiet out of personal embarrassment because you won't even show the smallest courtesy during or after.
> 
> the worst part is the superior attitude of people who claim these actions as a part of being young but yet continue them and still feel happy and validated in criticsizing other FAs who've done much less to damage the image of FAs and BBWs. Just because people have been too nice to say it out loud doesn't mean its not happening. so don't believe everything you hear from everyone on the forums. there is a lot of holier than thou going on uncalled. maybe thats another reason we might be undermining each other. we bow to the pressure that makes it hard to call bs on people because we might actually like them despite their bs.



Oh got it. So pity the poor gown wearing fatties who are just dumb, desperate and pitiful enough to let FA hobos use them as slampieces? I'm not sure who is more the target of your contemp; the fat women whose non-existent self esteem lets this happen or the ill mannered FA frat boys who prey on them.

This behaviour, where it exists is endemic of any sexually charged, or potentially sexually charged atmosphere. People hook up at frat parties, conventions, office Christmas parties, and high school reunions. It is not particular to bashes and the gown wearing SSBBW are not *more* sad or pathetic than any woman who wakes up the morning after with regrets. The guy who doesn't call the next morning is a *staple of heterosexuality*. And I'm willing to be the same thing happens in the gay fat social scene.

This is not different from the mostly mythical trolling male feeders who case the bashes for potential victims to feed to immobility while telling them they'll leave if they don't keep gaining weight. I'm not part of the scene and while I'm sure there are men behaving badly, there are probably also women behving badly, women who have partner who just go to socialize, and women who just go to get dressed up and dance with other girls. One of my best friends from Dims is a male FA from California (as in NOT THE EAST COAST) who has gone to the Butterfly Lounge and I can assure you is far too polite and well mannered to even dream of acting the way you described above.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Oh got it. So pity the poor gown wearing fatties who are just dumb, desperate and pitiful enough to let FA hobos use them as slampieces? I'm not sure who is more the target of your contemp; the fat women whose non-existent self esteem lets this happen or the ill mannered FA frat boys who prey on them.
> 
> This behaviour, where it exists is endemic of any sexually charged, or potentially sexually charged atmosphere. People hook up at frat parties, conventions, office Christmas parties, and high school reunions. It is not particular to bashes and the gown wearing SSBBW are not *more* sad or pathetic than any woman who wakes up the morning after with regrets. The guy who doesn't call the next morning is a *staple of heterosexuality*. And I'm willing to be the same thing happens in the gay fat social scene.
> 
> This is not different from the mostly mythical trolling male feeders who case the bashes for potential victims to feed to immobility while telling them they'll leave if they don't keep gaining weight. I'm not part of the scene and while I'm sure there are men behaving badly, there are probably also women behving badly, women who have partner who just go to socialize, and women who just go to get dressed up and dance with other girls. One of my best friends from Dims is a male FA from California (as in NOT THE EAST COAST) who has gone to the Butterfly Lounge and I can assure you is far too polite and well mannered to even dream of acting the way you described above.



the part you're missing is thats a lot of women aren't tolerating this because of a lack of self esteem. they are doing it out of friendship and empathy too for a good part. when other women go out into the world they aren't confronted by lots of guys saying their attraction to them is a great cause of their own personal angst and soliciting a pity party-- and thats one big difference. the taking the tack that "this is so hard for me--just being here" so that somehow the rest of standards that often apply to other men don't seem to apply to them is the big problem. and when some guys figure it out they use it to their highest benefit. when they can do better they often won't because they've gotten lazy and its all to easy to get away with. that has nothing to do with lack of self esteem for BBWs but everything to do with a a guy of assumed rarity willing to use his weakness as a tool of control and a way to avoid not facing up to any personal responsibility for his actions or even to reference any part of adult manhood.

maybe you wouldn't find it quite so easy to discount a fat woman's reality if you had to be one for a while.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> the part you're missing is thats a lot of women aren't tolerating this because of a lack of self esteem. they are doing it out of friendship and empathy too for a good part. when other women go out into the world they aren't confronted by lots of guys saying their attraction to them is a great cause of their own personal angst and soliciting a pity party-- and thats one big difference. the taking the tack that "this is so hard for me--just being here" so that somehow the rest of standards that often apply to other men don't seem to apply to them is the big problem. and when some guys figure it out they use it to their highest benefit. when they can do better they often won't because they've gotten lazy and its all to easy to get away with. that has nothing to do with lack of self esteem for BBWs but everything to do with a a guy of assumed rarity willing to use his weakness as a tool of control and a way to avoid not facing up to any personal responsibility for his actions or even to reference any part of adult manhood.
> 
> maybe you wouldn't find it quite so easy to discount a fat woman's reality if you had to be one for a while.



I am not discounting fat women's realities but the male behaviour you're talking about once again does not have anything to do with being an FA. Men use their faux weakness all day every day to charm and manipulate women. 

-The married man who is so in love with his mistress but can't bear to leave his children.
-The married man who just can't bring himself to "hurt his wife" by telling her the truth about his fooling around.
-The man who doesn't call when he says he will, forgets his wife's birthday, or doesn't go to AA when he promises he will who cries and pouts and begs forgiveness because he's "not such a terrible person, is he?"

Men of all kinds pull that shit in all kinds of situations.


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## wrestlingguy (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> the part you're missing is thats a lot of women aren't tolerating this because of a lack of self esteem. they are doing it out of friendship and empathy too for a good part. when other women go out into the world they aren't confronted by lots of guys saying their attraction to them is a great cause of their own personal angst and soliciting a pity party-- and thats one big difference. the taking the tack that "this is so hard for me--just being here" so that somehow the rest of standards that often apply to other men don't seem to apply to them is the big problem. and when some guys figure it out they use it to their highest benefit. when they can do better they often won't because they've gotten lazy and its all to easy to get away with. that has nothing to do with lack of self esteem for BBWs but everything to do with a a guy of assumed rarity willing to use his weakness as a tool of control and a way to avoid not facing up to any personal responsibility for his actions or even to reference any part of adult manhood.
> 
> maybe you wouldn't find it quite so easy to discount a fat woman's reality if you had to be one for a while.



I've never had to be a fat woman, but I have to agree with all of this.

I can't tell you the disappointment that I have as a FA when I sit in the lobby on Saturday mornings during our events, and see the guys sneaking out of the rooms with their duffle bags, knowing that they've left someone upstairs, who may wake up wondering what the hell happened. While I'd love to "educate" these guys about the damage they're potentially doing by their actions, I think Felicia's approach to smartening up women *before it happens* is more proactive, and removes the penis from the equation. See, he can't dance if you refuse to do the dance. 

Loves, you're right, these events have a sexually charged atmosphere. Here's the thing, if I run an event that is intended for men and women outside of this community, it's not typically body type specific. BBW/FA events are truly unique inasmuch as they are meetings of people who are sexually attracted to a particular body characteristic, some to the point where it borders on true fetish. Can you name me one other social oriented event where that is the emphasis for the entire weekend?

I can't speak for my bash partner, but I can tell you that I struggle with this constantly, and as a result, work hard to keep the emphasis on a sense of community for those folks who attend. It's hard to do that at times, when you see that despite all the work that Berna and I put into the Bash, people check into the hotel, use its resources, socialize little with the "commuinty", attend little to none of the events, and spend the bulk of their time in their own room, heading to the lobby to "hook up", and then head back to the room to get drunk, have sex, and pass out, in no particular order. It's insulting to us, to the work we do, and I would go as far as to say that it maligns the community, pigeonholing it into what it only means to "them", and minimizes it for nothing other than their sexual purposes.

At one point, I discussed the idea of having a forum for FA's who attend the bash to talk about bash etiquette and decorum. I gave up on the idea when I realized that the guys who would have attended that discussion group would be the guys who didn't need to be there. The guys who needed it would be in their rooms participating in the activities I've noted above.

I don't have my head in the sand, believe me. If anything, I am probably too aware of what goes on. As I said before, we do our best to keep that out of the NJ Bash by promoting things that would be of interest to everyone (wait until you see what we have in store for all who attend in October!), but the sad reality is that even our event has it's share of what's been described in this entire thread.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> I am not discounting fat women's realities but the male behaviour you're talking about once again does not have anything to do with being an FA. Men use their faux weakness all day every day to charm and manipulate women.
> 
> -The married man who is so in love with his mistress but can't bear to leave his children.
> -The married man who just can't bring himself to "hurt his wife" by telling her the truth about his fooling around.
> ...



thats may be true to some extent but Tracy and i were addressing a specific situation with a specific type of man and what happens at BBW bashes around those specific men. those men are not defined necessarily as FAs but as jerks and users who come to BBW bashes specifically because they feel they can take advantage in a specific place with a specific orientation. not every man is an FA . not everyman is a jerk either. we are also not assuming that all FAs are all jerks, just the ones who ARE jerks. those men in other situations have different variables at their disposal. we were speaking to our personal situations and what that means to us on a site geared to that specific situation. if we were talking about just any old person we wouldn't need a specific site to discuss it. if everything were exactly the same dims would not even exist. saying that there aren't specific concerns is either naive or very much uninformed. i doubt other people have to deal with all of the same types of sexual/social issues for sure. and even when they do they have their differences as well. if everything is exactly the same why do you even need something like dims? why are there BBW bashes in the first place? those issues you listed are over and above the ones BBWs already have on their plate. its only part of their equation. they aren't just big skinny women.


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## olwen (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> thats may be true to some extent but Tracy and i were addressing a specific situation with a specific type of man and what happens at BBW bashes around those specific men. those men are not defined necessarily as FAs but as jerks and users who come to BBW bashes specifically because they feel they can take advantage in a specific place with a specific orientation. not every man is an FA . not everyman is a jerk either. we are also not assuming that all FAs are all jerks, just the ones who ARE jerks. those men in other situations have different variables at their disposal. we were speaking to our personal situations and what that means to us on a site geared to that specific situation. if we were talking about just any old person we wouldn't need a specific site to discuss it. if everything were exactly the same dims would not even exist. saying that there aren't specific concerns is either naive or very much uninformed. i doubt other people have to deal with all of the same types of sexual/social issues for sure. and even when they do they have their differences as well. if everything is exactly the same why do you even need something like dims? why are there BBW bashes in the first place? those issues you listed are over and above the ones BBWs already have on their plate. its only part of their equation. they aren't just big skinny women.



I'm trying to follow this discussion, but I'm just confused? Are you saying that the difference between bbw meetups/clubs/parties whatever and a regular club/meetup/party is the real or perceived lack of self-esteem in fat women?


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 25, 2010)

> Loves, you're right, these events have a sexually charged atmosphere. Here's the thing, if I run an event that is intended for men and women outside of this community, it's not typically body type specific. BBW/FA events are truly unique inasmuch as they are meetings of people who are sexually attracted to a particular body characteristic, some to the point where it borders on true fetish. Can you name me one other social oriented event where that is the emphasis for the entire weekend?



Spring break, gay pride week, every summer weekend on Fire Island or Provincetown.

My point is if it is a sexually charged atmosphere, then sexually charged behaviour is going to happen. It's no more possible for you to run a bash and not have that stuff happen then for people to come to Dims to discuss Size Acceptance and run into men who send rude PM's asking if somebody is gaining weight or to send pictures. It's the nature of the beast.


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## calauria (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, with all this being said. The question is shouldn't we tame our sexuality? Too many people are getting hurt in more ways than one. Things are getting out of hand, all around. I mean, I love sex, too, under the right circumstances, but I don't hurt people with my sexuality. I don't go out to trick people to have sex with me, get them drunk or wait for them to get drunk, pretend to love them nor do I seek out someone in which I think has low self esteem to have sex with.

I've actually ended a friendship with a guy friend of 8 years. He said he purposely seeks out girls with low self esteem to have sex with because they will do anything he tells them. He is trying to get into the porn industry by way of making films. I was disgusted. He is a sick bastard. The last straw was when he started making films having sex with mothers and their adult daughters, like together. I don't care if they are adults. It's still just gross!!


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## wrestlingguy (Jul 25, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Spring break, gay pride week, every summer weekend on Fire Island or Provincetown.
> 
> My point is if it is a sexually charged atmosphere, then sexually charged behaviour is going to happen. It's no more possible for you to run a bash and not have that stuff happen then for people to come to Dims to discuss Size Acceptance and run into men who send rude PM's asking if somebody is gaining weight or to send pictures. It's the nature of the beast.



I think you may have proven my point here. Those events are designed essentially to be sexually charged. That, plus you don't know really who coordinates and runs those "events", as you call them. Let's be honest here, I've spent way too many summers in P-town to know that no one sits down like we do to plan the fuck fests you speak of. Perhaps the only one you mentioned that has any organization is Gay Pride Week.

While you're right that I should expect this behavior, I will tell you that WE do my best to minimize it. The best analogy I can make is when I drive my car to Provincetown in mid summer, I know that I'm going to get a load of bugs on my windshield. That doesn't stop me from being proactive and putting a bug deflector in the front of my SUV.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

olwen said:


> I'm trying to follow this discussion, but I'm just confused? Are you saying that the difference between bbw meetups/clubs/parties whatever and a regular club/meetup/party is the real or perceived lack of self-esteem in fat women?



no there are a lot of different elements. its really complex. self esteem on all sides is an issue for some of the people there. and even the self esteem relates to particularly different things than in other communities like in the gay lesbian community body image mobility, morbidity,the physical realities of how to have sex for fat people and their partners, public accessibility, social acceptability from a different perspective, health from a different perspective etc... may not come into play in the same way and they all effect people differently for different reasons that are particular to people of size and the people who are attracted to them. 

what i'm saying is that with all of those different pressures , especially those to conform based on what it already is and what people are used to, have an impact. especially where protecting people that maybe you shouldn't is encouraged. there are a of things that might cause women to undermine each other as well as themselves. lets face it a lot of people who go to the events are still trying to find themselves in some way or another. it might not be everybody but a good number. so that would mean everybody may not be that experienced or certain of what they need want or should comply with. thats especially true when they are around people who've been around for a while and know how to work the system and maybe take advantage of people who don't quite understand whats going on yet.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Spring break, gay pride week, every summer weekend on Fire Island or Provincetown.
> 
> My point is if it is a sexually charged atmosphere, then sexually charged behaviour is going to happen. It's no more possible for you to run a bash and not have that stuff happen then for people to come to Dims to discuss Size Acceptance and run into men who send rude PM's asking if somebody is gaining weight or to send pictures. It's the nature of the beast.



thats very true, but nature can be improved on somewhat and there is a better nature that can be appealed to rather than the worst. it all depends on the intentions of the people meeting and what they want to happen. they can either give in and lie to themselves or they can try and be conscious of what they are doing to themselves and each other in a way that creates more positive results. they can do things to attract more of the best or more of the worst that the community has to offer. there are always choices that can be made. 

discussing that and being open about it is one of the things that can have an impact. silence, pretense and giving in does nothing but perpetuate things or allow them to get worse. pretending to be satisfied with the way things might be isn't an answer if people are feeling dissatisfied on some level. its more constructive to be responsible for whats happening around you and trying to add to it positively than taking away from it or just closing your eyes to something you know can be hurtful to other people. some of the fat world wants to do better. i'm sure the average sized world has things it would like to improve as well.

Musical accompaniment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1NAGhiVqdg


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

what was your name before it was BBW? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-72yh0QXXMA&feature=related


everything changes with self love and love for each other


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## Brooklyn Red Leg (Jul 25, 2010)

Kinda weird, but I've sort of seen the type of behavior the op expressed. I have attended sci-fi/fantasy conventions for several decades now (NecronomiCon in Tampa, DragonCon in Atlanta etc). As the saying went 'Anybody can get laid there', though I NEVER got laid while at a convention (though I hooked up with someone I had met at a convention several months later). Its sad, but I saw all kinds of back-biting and so forth going on (and I saw this among both the men and women). 

As a personal aside, it always seemed like it was easier for the BBWs to get laid than the BHMs (though, in fairness, fat gamer nerds like me tend to be the lowest on the totem pole). As they say '90% of the women only have sex with 10% of the men'. Sad to say that it always seemed like the douchebags were the ones getting laid.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 25, 2010)

calauria said:


> Well, with all this being said. The question is shouldn't we tame our sexuality? Too many people are getting hurt in more ways than one. Things are getting out of hand, all around. I mean, I love sex, too, under the right circumstances, but I don't hurt people with my sexuality. I don't go out to trick people to have sex with me, get them drunk or wait for them to get drunk, pretend to love them nor do I seek out someone in which I think has low self esteem to have sex with.
> 
> I've actually ended a friendship with a guy friend of 8 years. He said he purposely seeks out girls with low self esteem to have sex with because they will do anything he tells them. He is trying to get into the porn industry by way of making films. I was disgusted. He is a sick bastard. The last straw was when he started making films having sex with mothers and their adult daughters, like together. I don't care if they are adults. It's still just gross!!



Should the man be blamed here or the women allowing him to behave that way? This is where I get things all mixed up and really am never sure who to blame. Shame on the man for being an ass and taking advantage of people but shame on the woman too for not respecting herself enough to not allow someone to take advantage of her in that way.

I think its all about personal responsibility. Love yourself, respect yourself, and demand nothing less than the best of treatment from people. Those men walking around in the hotel looking for a room to crash in because they are too cheap to pay for a room? They wouldn't be doing that if there weren't women who opened the door and let them in. 

Once we as women start standing up for ourselves and not accepting shit behavior we will find there is less and less of it to deal with.


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## olwen (Jul 26, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> no there are a lot of different elements. its really complex. self esteem on all sides is an issue for some of the people there. and even the self esteem relates to particularly different things than in other communities like in the gay lesbian community body image mobility, morbidity,the physical realities of how to have sex for fat people and their partners, public accessibility, social acceptability from a different perspective, health from a different perspective etc... may not come into play in the same way and they all effect people differently for different reasons that are particular to people of size and the people who are attracted to them.
> 
> what i'm saying is that with all of those different pressures , especially those to conform based on what it already is and what people are used to, have an impact. especially where protecting people that maybe you shouldn't is encouraged. there are a of things that might cause women to undermine each other as well as themselves. lets face it a lot of people who go to the events are still trying to find themselves in some way or another. it might not be everybody but a good number. so that would mean everybody may not be that experienced or certain of what they need want or should comply with. thats especially true when they are around people who've been around for a while and know how to work the system and maybe take advantage of people who don't quite understand whats going on yet.



Okay, here's the thing. You make it a point to say that fat women shouldn't be treated any differently from thin women, and I agree with that, yet you make it a point to say that FAs are different from other men, which I don't agree with. You make them all sound like one dimensional beasts which isn't true. You can't have one set of rules for some and a different set of rules for others and still ask for fairness. 

Just because some women who happen to be fat get taken advantage of in a party/club type atmosphere doesn't make the situation different from any other party/club situation. Being fat is neither here nor there when it comes to this sort of thing. 

Why should anyone have to be responsible for anyone else? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If a woman fat or thin gets taken advantage of then that's on her. She should be more careful. If a guy is thinking of taking advantage of a woman that's on him. He's a jerk. Predatory behavior isn't the sole domain of FAs tho so why keep up that line of thinking? 

It's like you're saying if I go clubbing I'm supposed to be responsible for the safety, experience level, and vulnerabilities of every other woman in the club (and all her possible fat angst/issues) and that's an impossible task. I'm no one's mother hen. 

Maybe all they want is a one night stand with some guy they'll never see again. If they decide after the fact that isn't what they wanted and they get hurt then they get hurt and then they'll know better next time. Not much you can do when hormones are involved.


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## tonynyc (Jul 26, 2010)

olwen said:


> Okay, here's the thing. You make it a point to say that fat women shouldn't be treated any differently from thin women, and I agree with that, yet you make it a point to say that FAs are different from other men, which I don't agree with. You make them all sound like one dimensional beasts which isn't true. You can't have one set of rules for some and a different set of rules for others and still ask for fairness.
> 
> Just because some women who happen to be fat get taken advantage of in a party/club type atmosphere doesn't make the situation different from any other party/club situation. Being fat is neither here nor there when it comes to this sort of thing.
> 
> ...




So true--- Predatory behavior can happen with both genders....

In addition, not all BBW Clubs/Bashes functions are the same - some events are more conservative than others... but, regardless of that...at the end of the day what might not be someone's thing - other folks are more than happy to attend...


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 26, 2010)

This also comes across as though you are placing the responsibility for male behaviour on females. As if all of them will behave badly unless put in their place by women and I think that is wrong. Men need to be responsible for themseves and it's not anyone else's burden to teach them how to act. This whole mindset of men "get away with what you let them get away with" is just awful. If a grown man chooses to not dress appropriately for a social outing or to not make sleeping arrangements when he goes someplace, then he is not behaving like a reasonable adult. It is no way the job of other reasonable adults to teach him. My problem is the idea that somebody would want to get away with not dressing properly or taking advantage of somebody else's accomodations.


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## MissStacie (Jul 26, 2010)

Lets call a spade a spade and be honest. I used to attend BBW events on a very regular basis and I've seen allllll kinds of stuff go on. To say that the problems lie with the men is an all out fabrication just as much as it is to lay all the blame on the women. WE ARE ALL AT FAULT. 

How many times have those of you who have gone to an event seen men buy a woman drink after drink, shower her with attention only to get her up to his/her room and ditch her the next day never to call or be heard from again? How many WOMEN have you seen go to these events looking like and ACTING like a hooker, getting so wasted that she, IMHO, gives the rest of us women a bad name? I mean, come on...yeah, there are some deviant men around that prey on hapless and well, less than esteemed women and there are women who turn into the biggest whores on two legs at these events who will fuck anything with a heartbeat. This is the real world and to be honest, there is not much we can do about it.

Do women undermine each other? Sure, but so do men. I've seen some men pull some crazy shit when trying to "score" a woman, to outdo his competition for the same woman. This is the nature of the beast called LIFE. Women sleeping with married men, married men chasing BBW's because that is what they WANT, but who don't fit into their Scarsdale lifestyle. Sad, but oh so true.

Now I'm not saying that these events are bad, in fact, I find them quite fun and if I'm able to bring my husband to his FIRST ONE, I'll do it in a NY minute. However, I will clue him in on what to expect to see, because its the same stuff over and over, region to region....and isn't it sad that I have to do that?


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> This also comes across as though you are placing the responsibility for male behaviour on females. As if all of them will behave badly unless put in their place by women and I think that is wrong. Men need to be responsible for themseves and it's not anyone else's burden to teach them how to act. This whole mindset of men "get away with what you let them get away with" is just awful. If a grown man chooses to not dress appropriately for a social outing or to not make sleeping arrangements when he goes someplace, then he is not behaving like a reasonable adult. It is no way the job of other reasonable adults to teach him. My problem is the idea that somebody would want to get away with not dressing properly or taking advantage of somebody else's accomodations.



May be be awful (and I agree that it is) but its true, it doesn't just go for men though. In general people are going to exhibit whatever bad behavior allowed by whatever society they find themselves in. 

If someone spends all their time in a society where wearing shoes inside a home is considered bad manners it will only take a few times of people telling them to take off their shoes before they finally get it, but only if everyone requires them to take their shoes off. If no one ever says anything though, or only 2 out of 5, that person is going to continue wearing shoes into the home of whoever invites them in. 

So we aren't responsible for other people's behavior, you're right. What we are responsible for is what behavior we accept from other peope. Eventually if everyone expects the same respectful behavior, most people will be repectful or face being shunned in the community they are trying to be a part of.


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## superodalisque (Jul 26, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> Lets call a spade a spade and be honest. I used to attend BBW events on a very regular basis and I've seen allllll kinds of stuff go on. To say that the problems lie with the men is an all out fabrication just as much as it is to lay all the blame on the women. WE ARE ALL AT FAULT.
> 
> How many times have those of you who have gone to an event seen men buy a woman drink after drink, shower her with attention only to get her up to his/her room and ditch her the next day never to call or be heard from again? How many WOMEN have you seen go to these events looking like and ACTING like a hooker, getting so wasted that she, IMHO, gives the rest of us women a bad name? I mean, come on...yeah, there are some deviant men around that prey on hapless and well, less than esteemed women and there are women who turn into the biggest whores on two legs at these events who will fuck anything with a heartbeat. This is the real world and to be honest, there is not much we can do about it.
> 
> ...



exactly. its all our faults but as a BBW you might not be able to change other people but you can definitely change yourself. you can open your eyes and be wise. you can decide you are worth more and won't take less. you might not be able to change a particular FAs mentality, but you can change his ability to take advantage of you and maybe even other women if thats what you want. you can stop ignoring guys who are decent and stop covering for sleaze. you can be straight. you can call it as you see it. you can stop being afraid to be honest and you don't have to be a lemming anymore. but the important thing is that if you really want to you can change things at least for yourself. all you have to do is decide.


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## superodalisque (Jul 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> This also comes across as though you are placing the responsibility for male behaviour on females. As if all of them will behave badly unless put in their place by women and I think that is wrong. Men need to be responsible for themseves and it's not anyone else's burden to teach them how to act. This whole mindset of men "get away with what you let them get away with" is just awful. If a grown man chooses to not dress appropriately for a social outing or to not make sleeping arrangements when he goes someplace, then he is not behaving like a reasonable adult. It is no way the job of other reasonable adults to teach him. My problem is the idea that somebody would want to get away with not dressing properly or taking advantage of somebody else's accomodations.



for the most part a woman is responsible for how she gets treated because she is the only one who decides what she'll accept or won't accept. a man presents his intentions and a woman either accepts or refuses. she has the power.

also i don't understand the insistence that i'm talking about ALL FAs. i'm not dealing in absolutes. saying all FAs engage in a certain behavior would be stupid. i'm just talking about those who would if allowed to.


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## superodalisque (Jul 26, 2010)

olwen said:


> Okay, here's the thing. You make it a point to say that fat women shouldn't be treated any differently from thin women, and I agree with that, yet you make it a point to say that FAs are different from other men, which I don't agree with. You make them all sound like one dimensional beasts which isn't true. You can't have one set of rules for some and a different set of rules for others and still ask for fairness.
> 
> Just because some women who happen to be fat get taken advantage of in a party/club type atmosphere doesn't make the situation different from any other party/club situation. Being fat is neither here nor there when it comes to this sort of thing.
> 
> ...



the situation is different because of the exact types of pressure brought to bare. 

i never said the situation was different only for FAs but also for ANYONE in the community.

i never said fat women should be treated exactly the same as thin women. i only feel they should have an opportunity to be in an environment where they are more likely to be treated respectfully themselves and have as many opportunities for the kind of socialization they want as thin women do. some of those will be the same as they are for thin women and some will be different depending on the person. how can that occur? by becoming more aware and more proactive when it comes to their own wants and needs by capturing their choices and responsibilities and putting forward their wishes and demands without hesitation and free of silencing.

why should we care about others? because we want them to care about us. by creating a mutually caring environment it becomes one where more people get their needs met in a healthy way. in caring about others we are caring about ourselves. when you talk about the mechanisms of things like abuse it all comes from the lack of valuing the self. when we don't value ourselves we are more likely to abuse others and create an unhealthy society that perpetuates and replicates more abuse. that would include the abuse of FAs and BBWs. after all, long term it doesn't benefit an FA either if the group he belongs to is seen as a haven for messed up behavior either. the answer isn't to just stop talking about the messed up things going on but to clean them up.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 26, 2010)

The problem I have with "bad behavior" at these events (be they size acceptance events, BBW bashes, size friendly club nights and parties, etc...) is that whether intended or not, the groups tend to foster a community atmosphere. A lot of people who are drawn to the size subculture are drawn at least in part because they feel a need to belong and to be around people who "get" them (if not, then why would there need to be a social aspect to it at all?) 

And when people feel as if they belong, and feel free to be themselves in a way that they may not feel in their day to day lives, they tend to let down their guard. In most cases, it's all good. But when there are predators who use that sense of community and freedom to their advantage; as well as other people within the group who not only tolerate, but in some cases enable "bad behavior", then it's a bit worse than bad shit going down at some random club or party. 

Tracy


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 26, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> How many WOMEN have you seen go to these events looking like and *ACTING like a hooker*, getting so wasted that she, IMHO, *gives the rest of us women a bad name*? I mean, come on...yeah, there are some deviant men around that prey on hapless and well, less than esteemed women and there are *women who turn into the biggest whores on two legs* at these events who will fuck anything with a heartbeat. This is the real world and to be honest, there is not much we can do about it.



I think one of the first things we can do is stop the slut shaming. What a woman chooses to do with her sexual life, whether she has low self-esteem or not, is not really anyone's business to comment on. Just as it's assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my body, my food and my lifestyle choices, it's equally as assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my sexual behavior, or the sexual behavior of anyone else.

If you don't like someone's behavior, say you don't like it. But I was hoping to not read slut shaming language like "hooker" and "biggest whore on two legs" on this forum, or any forum where I choose to spend my time.


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## wrestlingguy (Jul 26, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I think one of the first things we can do is stop the slut shaming. What a woman chooses to do with her sexual life, whether she has low self-esteem or not, is not really anyone's business to comment on. Just as it's assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my body, my food and my lifestyle choices, it's equally as assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my sexual behavior, or the sexual behavior of anyone else.
> 
> If you don't like someone's behavior, say you don't like it. But I was hoping to not read slut shaming language like "hooker" and "biggest whore on two legs" on this forum, or any forum where I choose to spend my time.



It's kinda sad for me to see that, not because I disagree with my friend Miss Stacie, but the fact that a picture like that even has to be painted.

You may disagree with the wording, but regardless, the behavior exists, I'm sorry to say.

If the room was filled with rapists, would you hope not to hear that in the forum either, even if it was true?


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## TraciJo67 (Jul 26, 2010)

wrestlingguy said:


> It's kinda sad for me to see that, not because I disagree with my friend Miss Stacie, but the fact that a picture like that even has to be painted.
> 
> You may disagree with the wording, but regardless, the behavior exists, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> If the room was filled with rapists, would you hope not to hear that in the forum either, even if it was true?


 
Phil, I'm surprised that you'd make this kind of comparison. A rapist isn't a slut. One takes what he wants by force. The other (the so-called 'slut') freely gives it. And so long as it *is* freely given, no matter what the motive, I don't think it's really anyone's business but hers. I reject that anyone else's behavior could reflect badly on me. I'm not part of a group for comparison - I'm myself. If someone wishes to categorize me, that's his/her failing, not mine.


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## Myn (Jul 26, 2010)

My issue with "slut shaming" is that it seems like the middle ground gets lost between "Victorian maiden" and "acting like a sailor on leave after six months at sea." If man or a woman is running around trying to fuck anything that moves (or at least jiggles if you poke it with a stick), that's kinda gross. 

It's been pointed out in this thread that the men who act that way at these events are totally skeevy, and the original point was, I think, that women who act that way enable them and make it harder for non-skeevy men and women to connect with each other. 

I don't think it's fair, though, to point at the sexual behavior of these skeevy men and not point to the women and say that that's also skeevy. Either both sexes are sluts when they're trying to get into the pants of absolutely anybody they can get, or both sexes are just taking charge of their sexuality. Isn't it pretty much the definition of sexism to set up different rules for different genders?


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## mossystate (Jul 26, 2010)

The language and energy is not used equally. Players and skeevy men...hooker whore women. This is as old as time and only the names change.


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## wrestlingguy (Jul 26, 2010)

Hang on, guys.........while you have a point TJ about comparing apples and oranges, I guess that I'll have to now compare them to the male version of them who I've now described in several posts in this thread. 

We all have core values. We also judge people based on core values, it's almost instinctual in a way, as it helps us to reinforce how we feel about things that are that important to us.

Example, I believe in monogamy and fidelity in my relationships. Therefore, when I see folks in "open" relationships, it goes against what is part of my core. 

For every action, there is a reaction. While you may defend the act of sluttery, I will defend the other right to call "sluttery" when it's seen. 

heheheh........sluttery defense.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 26, 2010)

wrestlingguy said:


> It's kinda sad for me to see that, not because I disagree with my friend Miss Stacie, but the fact that a picture like that even has to be painted.
> 
> You may disagree with the wording, but regardless, the behavior exists, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> If the room was filled with rapists, would you hope not to hear that in the forum either, even if it was true?



I don't disagree that when women choose to behave this way, it can very often lead to misconceptions of what they want from a sexual partner and how they generally act in other aspects of their lives. But why use terms like "hooker" and "biggest whore on two legs" to describe the behavior? From my own personal experience, calling someone names has never changed their behavior. To quote directly from Fat Lot of Good, a fat acceptance blog written by an Australian woman, "When are these people going to realise that shame and self loathing don't encourage people to change their lives? You are not going to make me thin by calling me names and telling me I am lazy, gluttonous slob. If that was the way to thin, I would be Rachel Zoe by now." The same applies to slut shaming. Name calling is not going to change the behavior.



Myn said:


> My issue with "slut shaming" is that it seems like the middle ground gets lost between "Victorian maiden" and "acting like a sailor on leave after six months at sea." If man or a woman is running around trying to fuck anything that moves (or at least jiggles if you poke it with a stick), that's kinda gross.
> 
> It's been pointed out in this thread that the men who act that way at these events are totally skeevy, and the original point was, I think, that women who act that way enable them and make it harder for non-skeevy men and women to connect with each other.
> 
> I don't think it's fair, though, to point at the sexual behavior of these skeevy men and not point to the women and say that that's also skeevy. Either both sexes are sluts when they're trying to get into the pants of absolutely anybody they can get, or both sexes are just taking charge of their sexuality. Isn't it pretty much the definition of sexism to set up different rules for different genders?



I'm not the one describing guys' behavior as "skeevy." And again, I'm not excusing the behavior of women who act in ways that can be misconstrued by others. What I'm saying is, let's not use language like "hooker" and "whore" to describe the behavior. Language actually has meaning, when you think about it. And there's a big difference between "skeevy" and "whore," wouldn't you agree?


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## Weeze (Jul 26, 2010)

hi bbw board


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 26, 2010)

Myn said:


> If man or a woman is running around trying to fuck anything that moves (or at least jiggles if you poke it with a stick), that's kinda gross.



To you. 

I think people are far too concerned with who other people are fucking, and how many/how often they are fucking them.


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## Myn (Jul 26, 2010)

> And there's a big difference between "skeevy" and "whore," wouldn't you agree?



Point. "Whore" does have more of a history behind it, and doesn't leave as much of a mark when you use it when talking about a man. My point was that the behavior is analogous, so it doesn't make sense to talk about the men being creepy and then excuse the women from getting their share of the creepiness.



> I think people are far too concerned with who other people are fucking, and how many/how often they are fucking them.



I don't give a rat's hind end who's doing what with whom as long as all parties are consenting. I do think that the public behavior of oozing all over everybody in the vicinity is the business of anybody out in public. At a club, if I'm dancing, I certainly don't consent to some horny geezer rubbing his crotch on my butt, or some chick hanging all over me because lesbian chic might make her seem more interesting. 

Basically, I consider it gross when someone forces me to have to deal with them on a sexual level just because I ventured out of my home in an attempt to have a good time.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 26, 2010)

Myn said:


> Basically, I consider it gross when someone forces me to have to deal with them on a sexual level just because I ventured out of my home in an attempt to have a good time.



That's quite a bit different than what you initially said was gross. I don't really care to watch people dry hump on the dance floor either...


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## Myn (Jul 26, 2010)

> If man or a woman is running around trying to fuck anything that moves (or at least jiggles if you poke it with a stick), that's kinda gross.
> ...
> I consider it gross when someone forces me to have to deal with them on a sexual level just because I ventured out of my home in an attempt to have a good time.



I don't see a contradiction in what I said, so I suppose I haven't expressed myself clearly.

In my experience - admittedly limited; I've never been to a BBW bash - the sweaty desperation to get laid by _anyone_ is accompanied by creepy, inappropriate behavior that gets inflicted on absolutely everyone in the vicinity in the hopes that someone will respond positively. I find it kind of gross, both because I don't like to put up with it and because I get a kind of contact embarrassment for people so thoroughly abandoning their dignity. I find it equally gross in men and women, and don't think either group should be excused from being held to account for their behavior.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 27, 2010)

Myn said:


> I don't see a contradiction in what I said, so I suppose I haven't expressed myself clearly.
> 
> In my experience - admittedly limited; I've never been to a BBW bash - the sweaty desperation to get laid by _anyone_ is accompanied by creepy, inappropriate behavior that gets inflicted on absolutely everyone in the vicinity in the hopes that someone will respond positively. I find it kind of gross, both because I don't like to put up with it and because I get a kind of contact embarrassment for people so thoroughly abandoning their dignity. I find it equally gross in men and women, and don't think either group should be excused from being held to account for their behavior.



Or maybe I just misunderstood. It happens.


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## MissStacie (Jul 27, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I think one of the first things we can do is stop the slut shaming. What a woman chooses to do with her sexual life, whether she has low self-esteem or not, is not really anyone's business to comment on. Just as it's assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my body, my food and my lifestyle choices, it's equally as assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my sexual behavior, or the sexual behavior of anyone else.
> 
> If you don't like someone's behavior, say you don't like it. But I was hoping to not read slut shaming language like "hooker" and "biggest whore on two legs" on this forum, or any forum where I choose to spend my time.



I'm going to stand behind my comment and just reply that I was in no means trying to deliberately offend women, but being honest about what I have seen. Again, calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers, and if you say that they DON'T, you'd be lying. 

I'm not judging these women, I'm not saying what they are doing is BAD. I'm not getting personal and attacking the, I'm saying that sometimes the way we behave and/or dress can exacerbate the undermining that we, as women, do. It doesn't help our "cause" if you have some women behaving as I mentioned in my previous post.


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## MissStacie (Jul 27, 2010)

wrestlingguy said:


> It's kinda sad for me to see that, not because I disagree with my friend Miss Stacie, but *the fact that a picture like that even has to be painted.*
> 
> You may disagree with the wording, but regardless, the behavior exists, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> If the room was filled with rapists, would you hope not to hear that in the forum either, even if it was true?




That was EXACTLY what I was trying to say. The fact that I can even SPEAK of this, IMHO, is so sad that it makes me sometimes a little embarrassed.:blush:


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## Carrie (Jul 27, 2010)

Some people, male and female, truly enjoy casual sex and one-nighters. It's not my cup of tea, but as long as all the cards are placed on the table and no one is hurt, good for them. I agree that outright desperation is never attractive, but let's not assume that people who sleep around at bashes are necessarily desperate or sluts or whores or whatever negative term we can come up with. Maybe a little oversexed, god bless 'em. Haha.  

I do wholeheartedly agree, though, that I strongly prefer not to see explicit sexual behavior out in the open. You stay classy, San Diego.


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## Tooz (Jul 27, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> If he left her for you, he'll leave you for somebody else. And if he'll cheat on her with you, he'll cheat on you with somebody else.



This is very, VERY true. I learned that one early on, thank heaven. That being said, I made the mistake again recently and look where I am now, heh. I don't know that I believe people like that EVER change. Some people are always looking for something better.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Myn said:


> I don't see a contradiction in what I said, so I suppose I haven't expressed myself clearly.
> 
> In my experience - admittedly limited; I've never been to a BBW bash - the sweaty desperation to get laid by _anyone_ is accompanied by creepy, inappropriate behavior that gets inflicted on absolutely everyone in the vicinity in the hopes that someone will respond positively. I find it kind of gross, both because I don't like to put up with it and because I get a kind of contact embarrassment for people so thoroughly abandoning their dignity. I find it equally gross in men and women, and don't think either group should be excused from being held to account for their behavior.



Held to account??? LOL! That is probably one of the more self destructive ideas that never seems die the death it deserves. Staying home is probably the wisest choice if you find it too tedious to stand up and represent yourself. People just simply aren't going to wise up and fall into line with your expectations any more than you should be expected to do the same in some other personal area. The commonly held creed that fat women in particular should be expected to as a favor to everyone else is one of the main reasons I stopped believing in Size Acceptance as a movement. The good fattie/bad fattie argument will always be a stumbling block. 

If someone crosses your personal boundaries then you have every right to say so as long as you observe the same care in return. Nobody owes you their chastidy so you can find the kind of man you want. That's your job just as it is for everyone else, no pity passes. Does it occur to anyone that men are not mindless mystical gorillas that we as women must shoulder the responsibility for if they misbehave or treat us like crap? How about holding THEM accountable for their actions towards YOU? You want to get married, have kids, go to church, etc? SAY SO FREELY. The sluts are the only people who are doing what they want to do. Everyone else is sitting around questioning their desires and trying not to impose. If that's ok with you then fine but I think there is a greater message here if you care to look. Sluts are not going to go away and realize they're worth more. lol If they needed that they would be the one's staying home.


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## Tau (Jul 27, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I think one of the first things we can do is stop the slut shaming. What a woman chooses to do with her sexual life, whether she has low self-esteem or not, is not really anyone's business to comment on. Just as it's assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my body, my food and my lifestyle choices, it's equally as assumptive and dehumanizing to comment on my sexual behavior, or the sexual behavior of anyone else.
> 
> If you don't like someone's behavior, say you don't like it. But I was hoping to not read slut shaming language like "hooker" and "biggest whore on two legs" on this forum, or any forum where I choose to spend my time.



I agree. To MissStacie: This kind of language, this way we as women have of looking at and judging other women as dirty, slutty prostitutes, is part of the bigger problem. This is how we let each other down as well. If I think somebody is disgracing themselves I'm going to let them know. Some people, male and female, are empowered by engaging in promiscuous sexual behaviour. Just cos I don't get it doesn't mean I get to sit back and go all Judgey Mcjudge about it. If you see a woman you genuinely think is hurting and engaging in drinking and sexual behaviour that will only damage her further then speak up, step in, give some advice even if it might be taken really badly. We have to look out for each other because there are so many people standing against the wall laughing at us. I would also think that a place like a BBW bash is a place where I can dress exactly as I want to without having 5 million judgments about my body and my hookerishness tossed my way. I really love dressing like a slut - if you don't like it look away. But to say this about women in a thread where we're talking about undermining each other...Come on now!


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## Tooz (Jul 27, 2010)

Slut shaming/whatever:

Women should be able to do what they want. If I wanna go to a bash and get it on with 7 different people, then that's fine.

I'm not gonna lie, though, when I see a woman in a sheer black sparkly body suit with cutouts gyrating her ass while guys take pictures, I will be miffed. I think that has more to do with the competitive nature of it, though. "LOOK AT ME, PICK ME!" kind of thing. I think women can get what they want or need without having to resort to that.


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## Tau (Jul 27, 2010)

Myn said:


> It's been pointed out in this thread that the men who act that way at these events are totally skeevy, and the original point was, I think, that women who act that way enable them and make it harder for non-skeevy men and women to connect with each other.



I don't think that this was the point of the thread. If it was then this thread is crap and should get off a board where women are meant to be empowering each other. When I read 'women undermining each other' and 'bad behaviour' I took it to mean men and women who deliberatly lie and use those at the bashes for their own gratification. I took it to mean dudes who promise true love but are only after a fuck and depend on humiliation to keep their victims quiet. I took it to mean women who knowingly lie and kidnap other women's romantic prospects. In my head I was seeing a great deal of soap opera behaviour  If, however, what we are talking about is adults having sex honestly, openly with whomever they want to have sex with and we are condemning _that_ as bad behaviour and fat girls undermining each other, then this thread needs to die a painful death.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Slut shaming/whatever:
> 
> Women should be able to do what they want. If I wanna go to a bash and get it on with 7 different people, then that's fine.
> 
> I'm not gonna lie, though, when I see a woman in a sheer black sparkly body suit with cutouts gyrating her ass while guys take pictures, I will be miffed. I think that has more to do with the competitive nature of it, though. "LOOK AT ME, PICK ME!" kind of thing. I think women can get what they want or need without having to resort to that.



The thing is, sometimes that IS what they want. I own that dress. I own two in fact, one is black the other is lime green. I've outgrown them though but for some reason haven't thrown them out. If a guy thought he'd won something because he was able to charm me into bed he was 100% right. lol Mind you, I did not hook up but the notion was not out of the question. If it did happen (maybe once or twice) it wasn't because I was fooled or unaware of my value or whatever. lol


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## Tau (Jul 27, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> The thing is, sometimes that IS what they want. I own that dress. I own two in fact, one is black the other is lime green. I've outgrown them though but for some reason haven't thrown them out. If a guy thought he'd won something because he was able to charm me into bed he was 100% right. lol Mind you, I did not hook up but the notion was not out of the question. If it did happen (maybe once or twice) it wasn't because I was fooled or unaware of my value or whatever. lol



LOL! You're my hero Lilly


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Tau said:


> LOL! You're my hero Lilly



I'll be honest with you, I was not as forward as some of the gyrating crotch grabbing women that are being described in this thread. I was however very friendly with those who were, being as they were the only kinds of women that would talk to me. We were a tight bunch and NOBODY was haplessly selling themselves out to get male attention. We knew exactly what we were doing and would be the first ones to tell a guy off if his advances were unwanted. If we met any woman who was harming herself, while all the other women were huffing and puffing their outrage we were the ones to try to take them in hand and say whoah whoah whoah... you're going about it all wrong. People like that sometimes continued on in their destructive search until they got sick and tired of being sick and tired. Then they'd turn around and blame *US* when we were the ones who tried to tell them. But they were the minority. Most women knew exactly what they were doing.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 27, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> I'm going to stand behind my comment and just reply that I was in no means trying to deliberately offend women, but being honest about what I have seen. Again, calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers, and if you say that they DON'T, you'd be lying.
> 
> I'm not judging these women, I'm not saying what they are doing is BAD. I'm not getting personal and attacking the, I'm saying that sometimes the way we behave and/or dress can exacerbate the undermining that we, as women, do. It doesn't help our "cause" if you have some women behaving as I mentioned in my previous post.



Hon, you're doing exactly the things you so adamantly say you're _not_ doing by choosing to use the word "hooker."

When you say you're "calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers," that means you think these women _are_ hookers, providing sex for money. That's what the phrase "calling a spade a spade" means. I.e., "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it _is_ a duck." Please explain how that's _not_ judgmental of their personal choices. Please explain how you're _not_ attacking their choice to do as they see fit with their own bodies.

Again, if you don't like the behavior and clothing choices of some women you see at these bashes, that's your prerogative and you can certainly say so. But saying you don't like their behavior and clothing choices is far different than saying they're "hookers" and "the biggest whore on two legs." What you seem to forget is that _words have meaning_, and when you choose demeaning words to describe women's choices, how can you argue that you're _not_ being judgmental and demeaning of them?


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## Tooz (Jul 27, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> The thing is, sometimes that IS what they want. I own that dress. I own two in fact, one is black the other is lime green. I've outgrown them though but for some reason haven't thrown them out. If a guy thought he'd won something because he was able to charm me into bed he was 100% right. lol Mind you, I did not hook up but the notion was not out of the question. If it did happen (maybe once or twice) it wasn't because I was fooled or unaware of my value or whatever. lol



Maybe it's because I know you, but you doing that somehow translates differently to me. The person I saw doing this I don't know, so I have no personality to add to the context, you know? Probably my bad here.

Also, I really agree with thirtiesgirl. A lot.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Maybe it's because I know you, but you doing that somehow translates differently to me. The person I saw doing this I don't know, so I have no personality to add to the context, you know? Probably my bad here.
> 
> Also, I really agree with thirtiesgirl. A lot.



You think it may correspond with how she looks in the outfit? I know a lot of fat women may self identify with the sexy outfits that Pamela Anderson might wear and think a size friendly function might be the perfect place to live out this desire. After all, where else is she going to go? So she wears the outfit and maybe she looks terrible in it. It doesn't suit her form at all and other women may be inclined to be more critical of her in the outfit than someone who can pull it off?


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## mossystate (Jul 27, 2010)

Weeze said:


> hi bbw board



Yeah.

------

I know we are not talking about how women dress and what that might ' mean ' about a woman. Not possible. Not on a site with a paysite board, where, last time I looked, the Little House On The Prairie clothing line was not favored by any of the women posing, nor the men who are gushing compliments all over the place. 

Miss Stacie, were you " undermining " women when you had a paysite?


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## Jes (Jul 27, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> besides all of that why does either Tracy or i need a guy to validate our viewpoint as actual fat women? we do have eyes. we also have ears to hear what other women say about their experiences privately. many of which these guys will never be privy to because the women involved often find the whole thing too embarrassing and painful to talk about with the vast majority of guys. i think your question ties into the point that was made about internal sexism by 30s girl. why can't you just take an actual fat woman's word without a man's opinion to back it up anyway? that might be a good question to ask yourself. ?



Last night, I was watching some material from the Heretics, a documentary about a feminist art collective in NYC that started in the '70s. One of the interviewees was talking about these circles that the women started as a first step in forming the collective, in which each woman was given 15 minutes to talk about herself and her experiences. Those stories were taken as truth, both in that the experiences happened and in that the women perceived their emotional responses to those experiences to be their truths. Now, there's truth and there's Truth, right? But I think, and the women in the documentary definitely feel, that speaking one's truth has a tremendous amount of value. It was a start, at least, and a great jumping off point for other things. I got the sense that each woman in the circle had her 15 minutes and that no one tried to debate what she saw as her truth. That wasn't the point of the exercise. The women were looking for commonalities and strength in numbers and a way to push themselves forward as a creative force and a social movement.


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## Tooz (Jul 27, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> You think it may correspond with how she looks in the outfit? I know a lot of fat women may self identify with the sexy outfits that Pamela Anderson might wear and think a size friendly function might be the perfect place to live out this desire. After all, where else is she going to go? So she wears the outfit and maybe she looks terrible in it. It doesn't suit her form at all and other women may be inclined to be more critical of her in the outfit than someone who can pull it off?



I think, for me, it was that everyone else was more "classily" dressed up, and she had on this catsuit with pieces missing and she literally had her hands on the wall, bent over, with her ass out. I know it's her right to do that, but I guess I just found it inappropriate for that particular time. I have no idea if she was "pulling it off" or not, I don't usually think about clothing like that, it was more the time she was doing it. I don't know if I would have minded if it was the pool party.


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## mossystate (Jul 27, 2010)

Tooz said:


> I think, for me, it was that everyone else was more "classily" dressed up... I know it's her right to do that, but I guess I just found it inappropriate for that particular time.



Yeah, there is that. She might have seen those men who look like they just rolled out of a stinky bed and appropriate time didn't seem so important.


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## Myn (Jul 27, 2010)

> The sluts are the only people who are doing what they want to do. Everyone else is sitting around questioning their desires and trying not to impose.



It seems to me this is as big a fallacy as saying that all women who like sex are whores. 

My point was that inappropriate behavior is going to make people judge you because that's all they have to go on, and that everyone - people of both genders - needs to own their behavior. If you own what you do, no one can shame you; if you're ashamed, then that's on you, not the person disapproving of you.

It's trying to have it both ways to say, "I can do whatever I want!" and "Don't judge me!" It's hypocritical to then follow it up with "This one group of people is nasty, but this other group of people that engages in the same behavior is empowered!"


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Myn said:


> It seems to me this is as big a fallacy as saying that all women who like sex are whores.
> 
> My point was that inappropriate behavior is going to make people judge you because that's all they have to go on, and that everyone - people of both genders - needs to own their behavior. If you own what you do, no one can shame you; if you're ashamed, then that's on you, not the person disapproving of you.
> 
> It's trying to have it both ways to say, "I can do whatever I want!" and "Don't judge me!" It's hypocritical to then follow it up with "This one group of people is nasty, but this other group of people that engages in the same behavior is empowered!"



Not really what I was getting at. The statement is true if you're talking about women who blame other women for the way a man treats them. "[These] women dress provocatively/sleep around/let men get away with 'xyz' behavior, therefore men think it's okay to do this to me too." Whatever reasons behind another woman willing to allow men to treat her one way or another should not be relavent to how you allow him to treat you. You should set the tone for that, and that's what I was referring to. I'm a strong believer in personal responsibility and while I can't control what someone else does, I can control what I do and how I respond to it. I think it should be encouraged for everyone, not just bad boys and loose women.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 27, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Yeah.
> 
> ------
> 
> ...



A paysite is not a bash.


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## MissStacie (Jul 27, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> Hon, you're doing exactly the things you so adamantly say you're _not_ doing by choosing to use the word "hooker."
> 
> When you say you're "calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers," *that means you think these women are hookers, providing sex for money. * That's what the phrase "calling a spade a spade" means. I.e., "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it _is_ a duck." Please explain how that's _not_ judgmental of their personal choices. Please explain how you're _not_ attacking their choice to do as they see fit with their own bodies.
> 
> Again, if you don't like the behavior and clothing choices of some women you see at these bashes, that's your prerogative and you can certainly say so. But saying you don't like their behavior and clothing choices is far different than saying they're "hookers" and "the biggest whore on two legs." What you seem to forget is that _words have meaning_, and when you choose demeaning words to describe women's choices, how can you argue that you're _not_ being judgmental and demeaning of them?



And, again, I am not going to change what I said. I did NOT say that these women WERE hookers, I said that they LOOKED like them. Its like a couple fighting and there is a big difference between calling your husband an asshole and saying he's ACTING like an asshole. One is an attack on their person, the other is commenting on the behavior. THAT is what I was commenting on, the BEHAVIOR. 

Please don't twist my words around, you know what I meant and are turning it around to suit your argument.


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## Myn (Jul 27, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> Not really what I was getting at. The statement is true if you're talking about women who blame other women for the way a man treats them. "[These] women dress provocatively/sleep around/let men get away with 'xyz' behavior, therefore men think it's okay to do this to me too." Whatever reasons behind another woman willing to allow men to treat her one way or another should not be relavent to how you allow him to treat you. You should set the tone for that, and that's what I was referring to. I'm a strong believer in personal responsibility and while I can't control what someone else does, I can control what I do and how I respond to it. I think it should be encouraged for everyone, not just bad boys and loose women.



I agree; if a man's a pig, he's a pig. Whether he was trained to be that way by a string of girls letting him get away with it doesn't change the fact that he's the one acting that way. 

And, you're right, it's up to each person to decide what they're going to accept in terms of how they're treated. If a girl doesn't give a crap how she's treated because at least she's got somebody's interest for a few minutes, she's certainly not going to give a rat's ass that he's going to mistreat the next girl and expect it to get good results.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Myn said:


> I agree; if a man's a pig, he's a pig. Whether he was trained to be that way by a string of girls letting him get away with it doesn't change the fact that he's the one acting that way.
> 
> And, you're right, it's up to each person to decide what they're going to accept in terms of how they're treated. If a girl doesn't give a crap how she's treated because at least she's got somebody's interest for a few minutes, she's certainly not going to give a rat's ass that he's going to mistreat the next girl and expect it to get good results.



I'm inclined to be a bit more empathetic towards a woman of that nature. In the past many women on this board whom I highly respect as being strongly empowered have alluded to experiencing a renaissance of self realization that included such behavior in their humble beginnings. I'm a little uncomfortable with viewing such women as loathsome enemies. Misguided perhaps but not worthy of being villified with such hate.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 27, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> And, again, I am not going to change what I said. I did NOT say that these women WERE hookers, I said that they LOOKED like them. Its like a couple fighting and there is a big difference between calling your husband an asshole and saying he's ACTING like an asshole. One is an attack on their person, the other is commenting on the behavior. THAT is what I was commenting on, the BEHAVIOR.
> 
> Please don't twist my words around, you know what I meant and are turning it around to suit your argument.



I'm not twisting your words around. I'm taking what you're saying at face value. When you use the phrase "I'm calling a spade a spade," what that means is "I'm calling it as I see it." That means when you assume a woman "looks like" a hooker, you're assuming she _is_ a hooker because you're calling it as you see it.

Since you didn't seem to get it the first time, let me repeat: When you say you're "calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers," that means you think these women are hookers, providing sex for money. That's what the phrase "calling a spade a spade" means. I.e., "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck."

No twist there, hon, aside from you trying to twist your way out of something I suspect you now regret you said.


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## MissStacie (Jul 27, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Yeah.
> 
> ------
> 
> ...



I don't think that is a valid comparison to make. But, if you want to, and I know where you are going with it, I suppose you can say that when I see Cindy Crawford on the cover of a magazine, in oh, say a skimpy pair of panties and oh..maybe topless.....does that make me think she's a whore? 

Yeah, I get where you were going with that, and still, not a valid comparison.


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## MissStacie (Jul 27, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I'm not twisting your words around. I'm taking what you're saying at face value. When you use the phrase "I'm calling a spade a spade," what that means is "I'm calling it as I see it." That means when you assume a woman "looks like" a hooker, you're assuming she _is_ a hooker because you're calling it as you see it.
> 
> Since you didn't seem to get it the first time, let me repeat: When you say you're "calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers," that means you think these women are hookers, providing sex for money. That's what the phrase "calling a spade a spade" means. I.e., "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck."
> 
> No twist there, hon, aside from you trying to twist your way out of something I suspect you now regret you said.



Nope, I don't regret a thing I said.


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## Myn (Jul 27, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I'm inclined to be a bit more empathetic towards a woman of that nature. In the past many women on this board whom I highly respect as being strongly empowered have alluded to experiencing a renaissance of self realization that included such behavior in their humble beginnings. I'm a little uncomfortable with viewing such women as loathsome enemies. Misguided perhaps but not worthy of being villified with such hate.



I don't think I was hateful, and I apologize if I came across that way. 

I see your point - in a way, some of the women you're talking about are making teenage mistakes, because when they actually were teenagers, they were too ground down by the societal messages of worthlessness that they didn't get a chance to kick up their heels and experiment. Kinda like how you end up painting yourself like a clown a few times before you figure out what colors work for you and how to deploy the mascara wand (unless that was just me that struggled with all that ).


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## Tooz (Jul 27, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> Its like a couple fighting and there is a big difference between calling your husband an asshole and saying he's ACTING like an asshole.



uh no see i don't call my partner an asshole unless i'm breaking up with them. shouldn't toss that word around dear


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 27, 2010)

Tooz said:


> uh no see i don't call my partner an asshole unless i'm breaking up with them. shouldn't toss that word around dear



Yeah I agree with that. Nuances/semantics fall on deaf ears when you're being hurtful and critical of your partner.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 27, 2010)

Tooz said:


> I think, for me, it was that everyone else was more "classily" dressed up, and she had on this catsuit with pieces missing and she literally had her hands on the wall, bent over, with her ass out. I know it's her right to do that, but I guess I just found it inappropriate for that particular time. I have no idea if she was "pulling it off" or not, I don't usually think about clothing like that, it was more the time she was doing it. I don't know if I would have minded if it was the pool party.



I don't know. Ever since I was young I've had a Ginger complex. You know that episode of _Gilligan's Island _where Maryanne hits her head and thinks she's Ginger? I was worse than Maryanne, I was the Skipper. :-/ I felt masculine and awkward. It seemed most of my life I wasn't allowed to be womanly or a femme fetale, I was one of the boys, the responsible one, the one who took no mess, took no prisoners. When I discovered Bashes I was 'dying' to get my Ginger on. I wore the dress, the hair, the makeup.... I was overdone, fashionabley late, wanting the make an entrance - the whole nine. People would be standing around dressed in jeans and loafers and I waltzed in with purple feathers and hairpieces galore. I was so happy it seemed like something in my innards was singing at the top of her lungs in bad French. People curled their noses, said awful things but some understood. This was what I needed to do at that time, I didn't expect everyone to understand or approve. I see people coming into these events and sometimes they're wearing things that I would not particularly choose myself. Sometimes I'm not in the mood for the display but get where it's coming from. There's an understanting there for me I guess and if you've never felt that it would be peculiar to you.


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## MissStacie (Jul 27, 2010)

Tooz said:


> uh no see i don't call my partner an asshole unless i'm breaking up with them. shouldn't toss that word around dear



No,you don't CALL him an asshole, you imply his behavior is LIKE being an ass. HUGE difference in attack.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 27, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> No,you don't CALL him an asshole, you imply his behavior is LIKE being an ass. HUGE difference in attack.



Yes. It's called passive aggression. I think most people are intelligent enough to pick up on exactly what you mean. If I want to call someone an asshole, I'll call them an asshole. I won't hide behind that "I said your _behavior_ was asshole-ish, not _you_" goofery. Take ownership of your words and actions. You'll feel far more powerful when you do.


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## vardon_grip (Jul 27, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I'm not twisting your words around. I'm taking what you're saying at face value. When you use the phrase "I'm calling a spade a spade," what that means is "I'm calling it as I see it." That means when you assume a woman "looks like" a hooker, you're assuming she _is_ a hooker because you're calling it as you see it.
> 
> Since you didn't seem to get it the first time, let me repeat: When you say you're "calling a spade a spade, these women look like hookers," that means you think these women are hookers, providing sex for money. That's what the phrase "calling a spade a spade" means. I.e., "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck."
> 
> No twist there, hon, aside from you trying to twist your way out of something I suspect you now regret you said.



Hold up! Are you saying that the suggestively dressed water fowl I paid to have sex with was actually some twisted garden trowel? Hmmmmmthat explains all the compost and scratches!


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## mossystate (Jul 27, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> A paysite is not a bash.



Never said they were, but thanks for clearing that up for those who might not understand. Bash not a paysite. Paysite not a bash. Got it.



MissStacie said:


> I don't think that is a valid comparison to make. But, if you want to, and I know where you are going with it, I suppose you can say that when I see Cindy Crawford on the cover of a magazine, in oh, say a skimpy pair of panties and oh..maybe topless.....does that make me think she's a whore?
> 
> Yeah, I get where you were going with that, and still, not a valid comparison.




I think it is more of a valid comparison than some want to believe. If a woman at a bash is " dressing like a whore ", ' you ' are already making assumptions about how she acts and what she is looking for. You don't think there are many people who view paysites and then when they see some of those women at bashes, they have preconceived notions about their character, even if they won't admit it, and even if it does run the gamut of " she might be a touch easy " to " bet if I offered her, tonight, what is equal to 5 years subscribing to her site, she will let me fuck her " ? It is not just the posing with whatever flesh exposed - it is the calculated tease ( which, if done very well, means great success, and that's just good business sense ), which is what lures men to the paysites, and what is in their heads ( both ) long before they get to a bash. So, the woman with a paysite goes to a bash and she can be dressed in a burlap bag, and there will still be people judging her - same as the woman who doesn't have a paysite, but goes to a bash and wants to express herself very freely with what she chooses to wear.


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## calauria (Jul 27, 2010)

Tau said:


> I don't think that this was the point of the thread. If it was then this thread is crap and should get off a board where women are meant to be empowering each other. When I read 'women undermining each other' and 'bad behaviour' I took it to mean men and women who deliberatly lie and use those at the bashes for their own gratification. I took it to mean dudes who promise true love but are only after a fuck and depend on humiliation to keep their victims quiet. I took it to mean women who knowingly lie and kidnap other women's romantic prospects. In my head I was seeing a great deal of soap opera behaviour  If, however, what we are talking about is adults having sex honestly, openly with whomever they want to have sex with and we are condemning _that_ as bad behaviour and fat girls undermining each other, then this thread needs to die a painful death.



I have to agree with you. That is what I thought this thread was meant for and not about male and females who just enjoy sex without the committment of a relationship and are honest about it. I have no problem with these type people and I respect them because they are honest about who they are, about what they want and not ashamed of it. And, I've seen all kind crazy things in clubs and if they are willing to do they sort of thing, well, that's them. I just laugh at them for being so damn crazy for actually doing that in public. LOL!! Crazy asses!! What I do have a problem with is someone putting their hands on me when I don't want them to.


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## MissStacie (Jul 28, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> Yes. It's called passive aggression. I think most people are intelligent enough to pick up on exactly what you mean. If I want to call someone an asshole, I'll call them an asshole. *I won't hide behind that "I said your behavior was asshole-ish, not you" goofery*. Take ownership of your words and actions. You'll feel far more powerful when you do.



First of all, its not goofery, its all a part of human relationships. I was in a very verbally/emotionally abusive relationship for 7 years and through therapy, I know the HUGE difference between commenting on someones' BEHAVIOR and making a personal attack on their person and/or character. Again, NOT goofery. You can call someone an asshole all you want, I just don't like to play the hand that I've been played a million times. Have I called someone a name? Sure, I won't dismiss that. But in this discussion, I wasn't calling ANYONE anything...not a whore/hooker or a person who WOULD "fuck anything with a heartbeat".

I think you GET my point, but you are trying to split the hair hear and its just not necessary.

Just because I said someone LOOKS like a whore/hooker by no stretch of the imagination does that mean she IS one. Just because someone looks or BEHAVES like she might "fuck anything with a heartbeat", certainly doesn't mean that she does and/or will. 


Mossy mentioned preconceived notions. Yeah, we all have them at one point or another. When I had my site open, did people think I was easy? I'm sure they did. AM I easy? Nope, not even a little.  

Back to my ORIGINAL point: we all have to be responsible for the undermining we may or may not do as women. Although, with that said, we can certainly look and act how we wish to in whatever arena we are in, but we also need to be prepared on how that is interpreted by others, and that means woman and men. 

I hope this is clear?


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 28, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> First of all, its not goofery, its all a part of human relationships. I was in a very verbally/emotionally abusive relationship for 7 years and through therapy, I know the HUGE difference between commenting on someones' BEHAVIOR and making a personal attack on their person and/or character. Again, NOT goofery. You can call someone an asshole all you want, I just don't like to play the hand that I've been played a million times. Have I called someone a name? Sure, I won't dismiss that. But in this discussion, I wasn't calling ANYONE anything...not a whore/hooker or a person who WOULD "fuck anything with a heartbeat".
> 
> I think you GET my point, but you are trying to split the hair hear and its just not necessary.
> 
> ...



I agree with you on everything else but I'm not certain what point you are trying to make with the bolded portion. Naturally I don't expect to be elected to pubic office due to my appearance on a paysite. The broader point about being mindful of what other people's preconceived notions about me will be based on my appearance is where I take issue. If I took that into account in every aspect of my life where one could apply a stereotype I'd never leave the house. Okay, so people are going to think stuff. Should I be mindful of what people are going to think when I eat, when I speak, if I walk too slow, if I wear a mu-mu, a headwrap? Do you have any idea the amount of insane persecution that awaits people out there due to what others are going to assume? Somewhere along the line people have to live their lives and be who there are, to hell with what everyone else is going to think. In the case of employment or something like that this may be relavent but in the case of some MarySue who wants to date a guy who prefers busty women in high heels, no.


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## MissStacie (Jul 28, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I agree with you on everything else but I'm not certain what point you are trying to make with the bolded portion. Naturally I don't expect to be elected to pubic office due to my appearance on a paysite. The broader point about being mindful of what other people's preconceived notions about me will be based on my appearance is where I take issue. If I took that into account in every aspect of my life where one could apply a stereotype I'd never leave the house. Okay, so people are going to think stuff. Should I be mindful of what people are going to think when I eat, when I speak, if I walk too slow, if I wear a mu-mu, a headwrap? Do you have any idea the amount of insane persecution that awaits people out there due to what others are going to assume? Somewhere along the line people have to live their lives and be who there are, to hell with what everyone else is going to think. In the case of employment or something like that this may be relavent but in the case of some MarySue who wants to date a guy who prefers busty women in high heels, no.



As per the usual, I agree with you. I think what I meant to say is that we can't expect people to NOT have preconceived notions about us based on behavior and/or look. And, yes, we all should live our lives as we want to, regardless of what others might think about us. I'm not sure how this thread got to THIS point, but its a good one nonetheless


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## butch (Jul 28, 2010)

some of the arguments in this thread remind me of the arguments in the "are fat women who eat on public transportation irresponsible."

and, if you have issues with how fat women dress at bashes, never ever go to a gay disco on underwear night. You might clutch your pearls so hard you'll cut up your hands.


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## LovelyLiz (Jul 28, 2010)

And per that same infamous thread, I think the reality is that YES...based on what we wear, how we act, what we eat, etc. people *will* make judgments about us. And they will be wildly variable, even for the same exact thing. A woman in a shiny, cut-out catsuit may seem like she's easy and trying too hard to one person, and to another person she might seem like someone who might be confident, a lot of fun, and a cool friend. A fat person eating a croissant in public may seem like an unhealthy glutton to one person, and to someone else they may seem like someone who just does what they want without letting society dictate or shame them into submission.

We are all getting judged; and the bottom line, that I think everyone keeps coming back to, is that we don't want to make our choices of dress, behavior, etc. based primarily on what those perceived judgments might be.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 28, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> We are all getting judged; and the bottom line, that I think everyone keeps coming back to, is that we don't want to make our choices of dress, behavior, etc. based primarily on what those perceived judgments might be.



Agreed, we shouldn't let judgements determine how we live our lives. 

Also though, if some woman wants to wear a black shiny catsuit with cutouts, that shouldn't say one thing about who I am. What she wears or who she sleeps with has nothing to do with me and her behavior doesn't reflect on me. 

Same goes for the fat woman e ating on the train, just cuz she's fat and I'm fat doesn't mean that her actions speak for me or any other fat person.


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## LovelyLiz (Jul 28, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Agreed, we shouldn't let judgements determine how we live our lives.
> *
> Also though, if some woman wants to wear a black shiny catsuit with cutouts, that shouldn't say one thing about who I am. What she wears or who she sleeps with has nothing to do with me and her behavior doesn't reflect on me.
> 
> Same goes for the fat woman e ating on the train, just cuz she's fat and I'm fat doesn't mean that her actions speak for me or any other fat person*.



I agree that it *shouldn't*...but I do think that it *does*. Not for everyone, some people are wise enough not to let the actions of a few speak a stereotype over a group; but lots of people just think in categories, especially if they have limited experience with a particular "category."


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 28, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> I agree that it *shouldn't*...but I do think that it *does*. Not for everyone, some people are wise enough not to let the actions of a few speak a stereotype over a group; but lots of people just think in categories, especially if they have limited experience with a particular "category."



You're right, for some people it does. Dont you think though, that in order for it to not, we have to stop allowing it to?

Did that make sense? It made sense in my head lol. 

Maybe its a cycle that we can never get out of because people in general are too concerned with what other people think, and really there aren't too many fat people out there doing stuff that skinny people aren't doing. Why should a fat woman in a catsuit garner any more attention (negative or positiv) than a skinny woman in a catsuit. Same goes for a fat woman eating a candy bar on the subway? Just because that fat woman enjoys wearing catsuits and eating candy bars on the subway doesn't mean that I enjoy the same and if someone is small minded enough to think that the action of one fat person means that I as another fat person will exhibit the same behaviors, well then that's their problem. All I can do to change their perceptions is to live my life, my way.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 28, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> First of all, its not goofery, its all a part of human relationships. I was in a very verbally/emotionally abusive relationship for 7 years and through therapy, I know the HUGE difference between commenting on someones' BEHAVIOR and making a personal attack on their person and/or character. Again, NOT goofery. You can call someone an asshole all you want, I just don't like to play the hand that I've been played a million times. Have I called someone a name? Sure, I won't dismiss that. But in this discussion, I wasn't calling ANYONE anything...not a whore/hooker or a person who WOULD "fuck anything with a heartbeat".
> 
> I think you GET my point, but you are trying to split the hair hear and its just not necessary.
> 
> Just because I said someone LOOKS like a whore/hooker by no stretch of the imagination does that mean she IS one. Just because someone looks or BEHAVES like she might "fuck anything with a heartbeat", certainly doesn't mean that she does and/or will.



Hon, you're not going to convince me. I think you're being judgmental with your language and that's just the way it is. If you want to continue arguing your point, have at it. But I've said what I need to say. For the rest of it, you're just blowing hot air up my skirt. *yawn*


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## Tau (Jul 29, 2010)

butch said:


> some of the arguments in this thread remind me of the arguments in the "are fat women who eat on public transportation irresponsible."
> 
> and, if you have issues with how fat women dress at bashes, never ever go to a gay disco on underwear night. You might clutch your pearls so hard you'll cut up your hands.



Underwear night!! I wanna go sooooo bad!!


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## CastingPearls (Jul 29, 2010)

<raises hand> Ummm..I want a black shiny catsuit with cutouts.......


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## superodalisque (Jul 29, 2010)

i think i know that girl with the cutouts. she is a verrrry sweet woman. she has stopped now though because she realized it didn't get her what SHE really wanted. i guess we are all on the growth curve. its great to see it when sleeping beauty wakes up.


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 30, 2010)

butch said:


> and, if you have issues with how fat women dress at bashes, never ever go to a gay disco on underwear night. You might clutch your pearls so hard you'll cut up your hands.



I've been to a few of those once or twice. The guys are so hot, it's almost a crime they're gay. I just walk around like a kid in a candy shop, getting hugs from shirtless, sweaty men.


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## Shosh (Jul 30, 2010)

I would have to say that yes BBW's can and do undermine each other.
Take this place for example.
A woman such as myself who is happy and confident in herself gets hated on by surprise surprise many women here.

They start throwing false accusations around like you are vain etc, if you post just one too many pics for their liking.

Luckily there are other wonderful women here who I have developed very solid friendships with over the last few years.
They do not feel the need to be jealous and mean.

Guess what, I am going to keep posting as many pics as I want. I get a lot of positive feedback from them in private from guys, which is A - Ok with me.


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## CastingPearls (Jul 30, 2010)

I want the catsuit because I have fantasies of being a BBCatwoman a la Michelle Pheiffer in Batman Returns except that rather than pounce from building to building, I actually bounce across Gotham City's night skyline.......

I could pull it off. 

You know I could.


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## superodalisque (Jul 30, 2010)

CastingPearls said:


> I want the catsuit because I have fantasies of being a BBCatwoman a la Michelle Pheiffer in Batman Returns except that rather than pounce from building to building, I actually bounce across Gotham City's night skyline.......
> 
> I could pull it off.
> 
> You know I could.



i can see that


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## curveyme (Jul 30, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I've been to a few of those once or twice. The guys are so hot, it's almost a crime they're gay. I just walk around like a kid in a candy shop, getting hugs from shirtless, sweaty men.



Lol! That image is just so, . . . uh, . . . . . "me"!!!! Gay men just love me! It's the straight ones that cause me grief. *sigh*


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