# Air Purifiers



## LJ Rock (Nov 28, 2007)

Does anyone here know anything about them? I have pretty bad allergies, and I've just moved into a new apartment. Something in this new place is triggering my allergies big time... after only ten minutes in their my sinuses get stuffed up and my eyes start watering and I start sneezing like mad. I've cleaned the hell out of the place and nothing seems to help. 

So I've been looking into air purifiers. Does anyone here have one that helps them with their allergies? Are there any that are particularly effective, that don't cost an arm and a leg?


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## moore2me (Nov 28, 2007)

LJ, There are several possible contaminants that could cause the symptoms you are describing. Some common ones are formaldehye, pet hair & dander, dust mites, mold, but there may be others.

I have a few questions about your new apartment.
1. Does it have new carpet?
2. Does it have new paneling?
3. Does it have new furniture?
4. What kind of building is it in?
5. What kind of heating & cooling system does the apt have?
6. Are you allergic to dogs or cats?
7. Was the apt lived in by a previous tenant?
8. Did they have a dog or cat? (maybe hair or dander still present)
9. Is there any mold visible in the apt? Has there been water leaks or damage?
10.Can you smell anything unusual? 
11. Is there a lot of static electricity in your apt? (This might indicate the air is too dry.)
12. Is there much air movement in your apt?

13. Is there gas for cooking or heating in the apt? Is the answer is yes, have the gas co, check the gas service & check carbon monoxide. (Carbon monoxide does not cause the symptoms you have described, but if you do not have good air flow in the apt, you may have problems with other things besides you having a stuffy nose.)

Not all indoor air problems can be eliminated by an air filter. Based on what they problem is, the control may be elimination, production substution, or a thorough cleaning rather than filtering the air. Or, if the problem is formaldehyde (such as may come from new carpet or new paneling) the control may be several methods:
- try to make the material release the gas as much as possible before the tenant moves in, turn the heat up, open the windows, sort of like a bake-off.
- or move lots of air thru the apartment & use dilution ventilation to lower the level of formaldehyde,
- sometimes, if the carpet bothers the tenant too bad, try commercial washing it (like Rug Doctor) a couple of times to see if that cuts the levels of formaldehye, or
- last resort is to rip the new carpet out & replace with hardwood floors or a carpet with less formaldehye in it.

Similar methods work for paneling & furniture. I will have some other recommendations based on your answers to the above questions.


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## LJ Rock (Nov 28, 2007)

Hey Moore2me... thank you for that very thourough response. 

As to your questions, I should probably start off by saying I've never really been to an allergist or been officially diagnosed with any specific allergies. So I can't really accurately speak to any specific allergies in any kind of detail. I only know that I have had these symptoms at various times for most of my life, and they seem to be getting worse as I get older. Sometimes I'll walk into a someone's place and I will start have reactions for no apparent reason (my parent's house is one of those places, unfortunately.) Sometimes people's pets (dogs and cats) will seem to have an effect on me, then sometimes other pets won't. It may be that my system is reacting to something altogether different... until I see an allergist (which I may need to do soon) it's hard to say for sure. 

As for the place, it's an old building built in the late 1940s. The rugs are fairly new, but not brand new (I can see the "paths" where it has been worn down a bit.) I have no idea who the previous tenants were, and I don't honestly remember right now if the building allows pets or not (I don't think that they do.) There is no paneling and the place was unfurnished. I don't see or smell any mold, but the place does have gas heat and it doesn't seem beyond reason that there could possibly be mold in the ducts some place, which is kind of what I am afraid of. 

When I signed the lease, the agent told me to let the property managers know if I saw any visible signs of mold any place so that they could nip it in the bud. I am thinking I ought to perhaps bring this to their attention just in case. 

Last night I actually did just what you suggested: I opened all the windows and let in fresh air and I cranked the heat. That actually seemed to help my breathing a bit, I think because of the fresh air more than anything (it does seem to get a bit stuffy in there.) But you've given me some good things to think about already, m2m. Thank you!


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## moore2me (Nov 29, 2007)

LJ,

To continue the treatment. Sounds like you may have multiple sensitivities.
First, as to pets - Keep two lists - One list of pets that do not cause you to react. Record specific breeds of cats & dogs that cause you to have a reaction. Record on a second list dogs & cats that do not cause you to have a reaction. This might help later on when you have to visit an allergist, or if you get a room-mate or a child who wants a pet. Also note, that some specific dogs or cats too can have a form of skin disease like human psoriasis that may make them shed dander particles worse than normal. Mange is one example of this. 

You mentioned opening the windows. I do not know where you live, but do not assume outside air is free from problems either. Here is one place where a filter may help when dealing with pollen or dust. Air filters are good for big particles like pollen & dust, but are not so good for smaller particles like smoke and fumes (formaldehyde & cigarette smoke). It similar to trying to throw a baseball through the back-net behind the batter's mound. Hard to do if your throwing a baseball (a pollen grain or a dust particle). Easy to do if you're throwing a marble (a formaldehyde particle or a component of cigarette smoke).

If you have cleaned the apartment (rugs & surfaces) & no new carpets or furniture and are still having problems - you might assume the problem is happening in places you have not cleaned or remodeled. I noticed you mentioned the property managers said to let them know if you saw any visible signs of mold any place so that "they could nip it in the bud". That immediately raised a "red flag" in my mind as to why they said that? I would go back to them & tell them what kind of problems you have been having, tell them you suspect the problem may be related to mold, and ask them why they asked you that question when you signed the lease. Even better would be to put it in writing in a civil, no threatening manner, just an inquiry, & see what develops? 

Some apartments & offices share air handling systems with other units. So, your air supply may be coming from upstairs or a crawl space that may be exposed to leaks (and growing molds) and not cleaned. Also, such spaces can become dens for pigeons (bird droppings - histoplasmosis) or bats, or rats, (aren't you sorry I started talking about this, now you'll never be able to get to sleep!).

It is also possible that your heating & air conditioning system does not bring any clean/outdoor dilution air into your living space. Many of the older systems just weren't set up for such a thing. The only fresh air coming in was by accident in the case of leaks, open windows, or open doors. This will only add to the stale air effect that builds up in your living quarters. More reason for leaving a window cracked - if possible.

If you are developing a sensitivity to mold - it could get nasty. * Have you had a flu shot this year? If not get one. Have you had a pneumonia shot? If not, get one too. These two inoculations will go a long way toward protecting you from future problems this winter.* The pneumonia shot is good for up to 10 years and helps for many forms of pneumonia which is what hospitalizes many people with lung problems from molds. Your local health department should be able to provide you with the shots.

Don't let your place get too hot. If mold is the problem, mold loves warm, moist surfaces. They are killed by bleach (diluted) and sunshine. Not all molds are bad. Penicillin is our friend. Yeasts are usually our friends. Molds break down dead things in nature. But, when molds get down in our respiratory system where it is warm, and moist they do bad, bad things. When they get down deep in the sacs of our lungs they can even kill. One of the worst problems faced in cleaning up New Orleans after Katrina was getting rid of the mold. See the following links.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/mold/protect.asp

*The following is a quote from that page - Sound familiar?
'People who are sensitive to mold may experience stuffy nose, irritated eyes, wheezing, or skin irritation. People allergic to mold may have difficulty in breathing and shortness of breath.* People with weakened immune systems and with chronic lung diseases, such as obstructive lung disease, may develop mold infections in their lungs. If you or your family members have health problems after exposure to mold, contact your doctor or other health care provider." 


To summarize,
1. Multiple source sensitivity 
2. Eliminate mold as a source
3. Bring in modified (filtered) fresh air
4. Review air handling system in the apartment with apt manager
5. Have flu shot, pneumonia shot


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## imfree (Nov 29, 2007)

moore2me said:


> LJ,
> 
> To continue the treatment. ....... snipped......



That was very good and informative, Moore2Me.


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## moore2me (Nov 29, 2007)

imfree said:


> That was very good and informative, Moore2Me.



Thank you free - I did this stuff for a living for 20 odd years.


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## moore2me (Nov 29, 2007)

I accidentally sent this message twice - just getting too old!


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## imfree (Nov 29, 2007)

moore2me said:


> Thank you free - I did this stuff for a living for 20 odd years.


 
You do seem to have a great mind for technology, You're an interesting
person to interact with.


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## moore2me (Nov 29, 2007)

imfree said:


> You do seem to have a great mind for technology, You're an interesting
> person to interact with.



You sure know how to sweet talk a girl. :blush::blush::blush:


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## imfree (Nov 29, 2007)

moore2me said:


> You sure know how to sweet talk a girl. :blush::blush::blush:



Muahaha! One thing that really has my curiosity peaked is your 
Predator Box. Would you visit my Electronics blog someday and
write me a theory of operation and provide a block diagram for
the Predator Box? I'm just dying to know how that "puppy" works
and how it's put together! I love to design and build equipment
and a Predator Box looks like an interesting construction project!


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 30, 2007)

LJ Rock said:


> Does anyone here know anything about them? I have pretty bad allergies, and I've just moved into a new apartment. Something in this new place is triggering my allergies big time... after only ten minutes in their my sinuses get stuffed up and my eyes start watering and I start sneezing like mad. I've cleaned the hell out of the place and nothing seems to help.
> 
> So I've been looking into air purifiers. Does anyone here have one that helps them with their allergies? Are there any that are particularly effective, that don't cost an arm and a leg?



I have bad allergies too and my apartment is heated by oil. Every time I turned the heat on I would get sick. My nose would get all stuffed up, my eyes were runny, my throat sore, etc. I swore it was because this rickety old house had bad pipes and the overlords who run this place never cleaned them. I talked to my doctor and searched online. Everybody said it was because the heat sucked up all the moisture in the air and it was causing my symptoms. Turns out they were right. Before you rip the apartment apart try putting a pot of water on the radiator or on the stove and see if that helps. It may be something simple.


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## moore2me (Nov 30, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I have bad allergies too and my apartment is heated by oil. Every time I turned the heat on I would get sick. My nose would get all stuffed up, my eyes were runny, my throat sore, etc. I swore it was because this rickety old house had bad pipes and the overlords who run this place never cleaned them. I talked to my doctor and searched online. Everybody said it was because the heat sucked up all the moisture in the air and it was causing my symptoms. Turns out they were right. Before you rip the apartment apart try putting a pot of water on the radiator or on the stove and see if that helps. It may be something simple.



Yes, Lily you are exactly right. That's what I was getting at when I asked about static electricity. A lot of the time when the heat sucks up moisture, the air gets dry, we start noticing trouble with static electricity first. But, the pot of water is a cheap, good fix - just the ticket.

But, your point about trying simple fixes first is always prudent & if I did not make that clear I should have.

Back to the kettle on the stove, humidifiers as appliances do have a few problems associated with them and take some precautions in their operation & handling. But, a kettle on the stove does not fall into this category.


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 30, 2007)

moore2me said:


> Yes, Lily you are exactly right. That's what I was getting at when I asked about static electricity. A lot of the time when the heat sucks up moisture, the air gets dry, we start noticing trouble with static electricity first. But, the pot of water is a cheap, good fix - just the ticket.
> 
> But, your point about trying simple fixes first is always prudent & if I did not make that clear I should have.
> 
> Back to the kettle on the stove, humidifiers as appliances do have a few problems associated with them and take some precautions in their operation & handling. But, a kettle on the stove does not fall into this category.



I know M2M. It's just that when I started to get the symptoms I felt sooo awful that when people told me it might be lack of humidity I blew it off. It felt to me like something horrible was happening and I was ready to skip past the humidity solution to make a formal complaint to the management. I was complaining about it to the nurse practitioner and she strongly urged me to try the pot on the stove. I seriously was going to ignore it because I felt that what I was feeling *had* to be from something awful but because she was a nurse I decided to give it a whirl. I just wanted to put in an extra 'oomph' for the humidity solution first in case LJ was in the same place I was.


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## LJ Rock (Nov 30, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I know M2M. It's just that when I started to get the symptoms I felt sooo awful that when people told me it might be lack of humidity I blew it off. It felt to me like something horrible was happening and I was ready to skip past the humidity solution to make a formal complaint to the management. I was complaining about it to the nurse practitioner and she strongly urged me to try the pot on the stove. I seriously was going to ignore it because I felt that what I was feeling *had* to be from something awful but because she was a nurse I decided to give it a whirl. I just wanted to put in an extra 'oomph' for the humidity solution first in case LJ was in the same place I was.



I definitely think that the moisture level, or lack thereof could be a contributing factor, as well as poor air circulation. I have a humidifier that I often run at night while I sleep. I'm going to try running that in the apartment for a while to see if it helps. I'm also going to try cracking the windows a bit and letting the fresh air in some, and see if that has a positive effect. 

I've also been looking into non-chemical cleaners, as I have read that a lot of the cleaning products that we commonly use to keep our homes sanitary and healthy might actually be making us sick. 

One thing that I think might also be a factor is the paint. It's an inexpensive flat paint that has kind of a chalky white-wash texture, and I think that is actually the same kind of paint that my parents have in their house (as I mentioned before, I tend to have pretty nasty allergy attacks when I visit them.) I wonder if I scrub down the walls with warm water and soap if that would make a difference... short of just having the walls repainted. 

Well, I suppose at this point it's just a process of elimination... just try different things, starting with the simplest and progressing from there. I might still look into getting a small and inexpensive air purifier at some point... I mean, it couldn't hurt. Could it? 

Thanks again for all the advice, folks.


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## moore2me (Nov 30, 2007)

LJ, 
No- an inexpensive air purifier wouldn't hurt, but it may not help either. You may have to give up & visit an allergy doctor to get some relief until you can figure out what is tormenting you. And, an allergist can tell you what you are reacting to with scratch (or patch) tests. 

One old adage when dealing with indoor air problems may help you. "The solution to pollution is dilution", simple, but it often works with indoor air problems such as yours. Remember the dilution air should be outdoor air. Usually a 10% addition of outdoor air should be more than enough into your air system. (May have to trim this down when the weather is too cold or you'll freeze to death!)

However, for those allergic to outdoor pollens or molds - bringing in outdoor air is a bad idea. If you're allergic to mold spores, ragweed, etc., outdoor air definitely would have to be filtered with a HEPA (high efficiency particulate air) filter installed in your air handling system. These are 99.9 % efficient in trapping particles that pass through them as the air goes thru your air handler. 

You can get a HEPA filter for the little room purifier you mentioned, but a small room purifier probably won't be able to "reach out" and "catch" all the air in your apartment. Furthermore, it won't have access to bring in outdoor air. But, it would filter the things that it sucks thru its vaccuum.


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## LJ Rock (Nov 30, 2007)

moore2me said:


> LJ,
> No- an inexpensive air purifier wouldn't hurt, but it may not help either. You may have to give up & visit an allergy doctor to get some relief until you can figure out what is tormenting you. And, an allergist can tell you what you are reacting to with scratch (or patch) tests.
> 
> One old adage when dealing with indoor air problems may help you. "The solution to pollution is dilution", simple, but it often works with indoor air problems such as yours. Remember the dilution air should be outdoor air. Usually a 10% addition of outdoor air should be more than enough into your air system. (May have to trim this down when the weather is too cold or you'll freeze to death!)
> ...



Yes, I think I may need to see an allergist soon. I probably should have gone to one a long time ago. But it would be good to finally get down to the bottom of whats been tweaking with my system all these years. 

If all else fails I'll just have to move down to the tropics! My sinuses were clear as a bell when I was down in the Caribbean last winter... like they'd never been in my entire life. Ahh... maybe someday.


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## LillyBBBW (Dec 18, 2007)

*bump*

Hey LJ Rock, whatever became of you and your sinuses? Did you find a solution?


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## LJ Rock (Dec 18, 2007)

Well, sort of..... 

I've still not been to an allergist, something that I will inevitably have to do sooner or later. I still am experiencing some symptoms, though not nearly as bad or as frequent. One thing I have found to help with the problem of air circulation is the air conditioner. It's a wall unit mounted in the living room area, and it's actually got an "exhaust" setting on the fan which really does help to move out some of the stale air. I had started noticing that when I would come home, the overwhelming odor that greeted me at the door was of kitchen grease and whatever the last thing I cooked was. I was like "I gotta get some air flowin' in this joint." So I tried out the fan on the AC I notice I can breather a lot easier when it is on. I can always open a window too, but it is getting a bit to cold for that now.  Otherwise I am just trying to keep the place as clean and dust-free as possible, and hoping for the best. 

Thank you for asking.


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## Tad (Dec 24, 2007)

Ive used air filters for years, as I have a variety of environmental allergies (pollen, pets, dust mites, etc). Now, this may or not be what you are experiencing, but Ill give you my air filter experience in case it is useful.

Most air filters use disposable carbon filters, as well as a disposable fine filter to catch small particles. The charcoal is basically to absorb odours and block larger bits of dust, and in some systems there is a washable foam that can be used instead of the charcoal. The foam wont absorb odors, but does block the dust. The second filter is the one that pulls most things out of the air. Depending on how much stuff is in your air, and how constantly you run the units, the filters may need to be changed as often as monthly, but it may be more like every three months. These can cost a fair bit, typically $10-20 per new filter, depending on the size and model of your filter.

Some filters instead use electrostatic cleaning. These use a series of charged plates to attract particles to them out of the air. This avoids having to buy new filters, but you do have to regularly clean the filters, or they wont be doing much for you. The electrostatic kind typically cost quite a bit more up-front, but may be cheaper in the long run. They probably dont clean quite as thoroughly, but you can leave them running constantly without worrying about expensive filters, so they can be pretty effective.

Most electrostatic and some of the other kind will also ionize the outgoing air. Negative ions in the air are supposed to make the room feel more pleasantI find it makes a difference, but that might be psychosomatic. The sea shore, for example, tends to have a lot of negative ions (negative by the way is referring to the electrical charge, not the effect of the ions. Negative ions make you happy, is the idea).

Air filters that will actually make much difference for your whole apartment are big and expensive. Most likely youd actually need more than one, because of limited air flow between rooms. So trying to totally clean the air would probably take a few hundred dollars up front. An alternative is focus on air-flow. What I used to do was have a small air filter on my bed side table, blowing at where my face normally was when I was sleeping. That way at least all night long I was getting fairly clean air. If my allergies were really bad, when I got home Id go and lie down in front of it for a while (in high allergy season Id also leave it running all day, so that at least the one room was moderately filtered). You can do the same beside your computer or favorite TV watching spot, or wherever else you spend a lot of your time. That sort of smaller filter will struggle to clean a room bigger than ten by ten, but should cost you not so much (if you buy the kind with the replaceable filters).

A couple of non-filter thoughts. Since there are carpets, maybe rent a carpet shampoo machine, and give the carpets a really good going over. There may have been something that previous tenants had that has left residue in the carpet, and the more that you can get out, the better. Another is to pull out the stove and fridge (turn it off first), and clean well behind them. People dont always clean well back there, so you can get build up of grease, dust, and so on. Your thought on washing your walls might be a good one. An alternative might be to paint over them with a better paint. That is a cost and some work, but if you think youll be there for a while it might be nice to do anyway.

I hope you can manage to keep improving your environment!

Best of luck!

-Ed


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