# His Porn Use, Your Feelings



## Fascinita (Sep 5, 2009)

I hope this thread will *not* be seen as an opportunity for controversy or for denying the valid feelings of some of us, or as an opportunity to try to cast people as "prudes" or "biddies."

This thread is for talking about the negative impact that porn can have on a relationship and about setting boundaries. While many women are perfectly fine with their SO's occasional use of porn--some even encouraging it--there's no denying that the ubiquity of porn in our lives can sometimes mean that "it gets to us." 

Whether we're dealing with SOs who won't or can't cut back on or stop looking at porn--maybe some who have even stopped paying attention to us in favor of looking at porn, or who lie or try to conceal the extent or frequency of their porn use--or we're talking about the over-abundance of images of women as objects that can make us feel like we have to "keep up" to keep our SO's attentions, what negative effects do you think porn has had on your relationship and your life?

As well, how do you negotiate boundaries--again, in a culture where there is a seeming ever-increasing availability of pornographic images of women--with your SO about porn?

Any and all *constructive* replies are welcome.


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## Risible (Sep 5, 2009)

As with any behavior that needs to be "negotiated" or compromised on in a mate, I think it's best to know what you're (the general you) getting into before becoming deeply involved. I understand internet porn has broken up marriages - if your partner is "into" that, then it's best to know about it upfront and decide if you can tolerate it, not how much, but *if*.

Porn doesn't bother me personally, and my husband checking out the paysite models here and fat women websites doesn't upset me. Years ago, before the internet, a fat married female friend told me that she subscribed to Dimensions for her hubby; we had a long discussion, both personal and objective, about bringing porn into the marriage. She chose to look at it from a positive viewpoint, and since I admired the strength of her and her marriage in general, the discussion helped me to develop a positive attitude towards the use of porn in a relationship.


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## katorade (Sep 5, 2009)

I think a lot of people say they're completely okay with their SO watching porn without actually thinking it through.

I, for instance, have no problem with my partner watching porn if it stays within the realm of my comfort levels. I would certainly have a problem if the porn they watched was illegal/degenerate (i.e. pedophilia, bestiality), or I would be slightly worried if the majority of the porn they watched involved subject matter I could never achieve physiologically (i.e. gay porn). 

Other things I might take issue with is if the porn-watching habit reached unhealthy levels of time or dedication, or if their appeared to be borderline obsession with one recurring aspect, especially if there was a lack of physical contact between the two of us.

I would never, however, object to the fact that they watch porn with women in it that don't look like me, or porn that contains sexual acts we haven't or rarely engaged in, or contained things I just generally wouldn't feel comfortable with for myself, either physically or mentally, as long as they were considered socially acceptable or non-dangerous. 

I know that for me there are certain fantasies that I find alluring, but would never seek to act them out with my partner because they're either unrealistic or physically impossible for me (or him). I will also fully admit to the fact that I don't always especially want to INCLUDE my partner in every sexual urge I experience. Sometimes I just want to be lazy and scratch that sexual itch and just get it over with in a minute and a half. 

There's a lot of different types of sexual gratification, and I think it's really important to be able to have a sexual relationship with just yourself, and that it's really a building block to being able to have a healthy sexual relationship with others. Porn can definitely fulfill a lot of fantasies or curiosities we have about sex, so I fully welcome my SO to watch it.


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## Fascinita (Sep 5, 2009)

katorade said:


> I, for instance, have no problem with my partner watching porn if it stays within the realm of my comfort levels.



This is where I stand, too. If you can respect my comfort level and agreed-upon boundaries, then it's fine. In the end, this is what it may be about for ALL couples?

I think, too, that maybe porn precipitates problems a couple would have at some point, sooner or later, in any case. A person who lies about the extent of his or her porn use is a liar any way you slice it--not to mention inconsiderate and not worthy of trust. The issue then is not the porn, right? It's the lack of integrity. 

Ris, I think that's good advice about knowing what you're getting into. I do think sometimes things get out of hand and trust is taken advantage of, etc. In any case, a strong relationship where both people are caring and mature can probably withstand a lot of "negotiation" over any number of issues.


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## katorade (Sep 5, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> I think, too, that maybe porn precipitates problems a couple would have at some point, sooner or later, in any case. A person who lies about the extent of his or her porn use is a liar any way you slice it--not to mention inconsiderate and not worthy of trust. The issue then is not the porn, right? It's the lack of integrity.



Agreed, especially since realizing that your SO is *hiding* it, you immediately jump to the worst case scenario and start thinking about what else they might be hiding. You thought he had 4 or 5 DVDs and just occasionally rubbed one out while you were at the grocery store, or fantasizes about Mena Suvari in American Beauty while he's in the shower. Then you find out he has 3 hard drives full of hardcore porn and a collection of DVDs he keeps in his tool shed in several 50 gallon rubbermaid bins. 

You wonder about how far does the behavior go at that point. Does he go to strip clubs in secrecy? Has he visited a prostitute? If he feels the need to hide his amplified sexuality, does it mean he thinks he has a serious psychological problem and needs help? Does he think you're a prude? Do you not satisfy him in _any_ way? The list of questions could go on.

I definitely think the best remedy for that is simply being honest from the start, and really if it gets to *that* level, some self-control. I do believe, though, that the majority of problems that stem from watching porn in a couple lies with women that are very insecure about their sexuality or the status of their relationship, or they're just completely unrealistic about their partner's sexual need. 

We have ALL known the woman that says "it is disrespectful for him to be watching porn, or for him to say he thinks another woman is attractive. I should be the only person he has eyes for." That alone can make a guy become really secretive about even a completely normal, average porn habit.


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## Fascinita (Sep 5, 2009)

katorade said:


> We have ALL known the woman that says "it is disrespectful for him to be watching porn, or for him to say he thinks another woman is attractive. I should be the only person he has eyes for." That alone can make a guy become really secretive about even a completely normal, average porn habit.



I think it's a matter of boundaries and respect, again. What about the person who uses porn every chance he gets? Even if you're OK with porn use, isn't that particular scenario then "disrespectful of him," in your average, normal couple?

And what about the man who insists on looking at porn while his SO is in the next room, even when she's made it clear that she'd rather he paid attention to her? Isn't that the equivalent of the man who checks out other women brazenly while he's out with his girlfriend or wife? 

In other words, I think it's perfectly appropriate to expect that, in certain situations, your SO "only have eyes" for you. Some people are fine seeing their SOs openly lusting after other bodies, but I think you'll agree that most of us want our SO's attention exclusively when we're with our SOs.


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## katorade (Sep 5, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> In other words, I think it's perfectly appropriate to expect that, in certain situations, your SO "only have eyes" for you. Some people are fine seeing their SOs openly lusting after other bodies, but I think you'll agree that most of us want our SO's attention exclusively when we're with our SOs.



Oh, definitely, but I personally think that a lot of people, both male and female, can be completely unrealistic about something that is completely normal behavior. I know women that don't believe their SOs SHOULD be able to get aroused by any other woman, period. They're offended simply by the fact that their man can achieve an erection without her. Conversely, I know men that take offense to the fact that their SO could get herself off so quickly while watching porn, but take much longer with him, and think that it's a downfall on his part. 

I had to use two different scenarios for that because I *honestly* have never met a man that said he disliked the idea of his SO watching porn. Occasionally I've met a guy that's completely benign on the subject, but the majority enjoy and would readily encourage their SO to watch it.


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## Fascinita (Sep 5, 2009)

katorade said:


> I had to use two different scenarios for that because I *honestly* have never met a man that said he disliked the idea of his SO watching porn. Occasionally I've met a guy that's completely benign on the subject, but the majority enjoy and would readily encourage their SO to watch it.



There's another thread somewhere where I and others tried to hash out the "why" most porn that's produced is not made for women, and the implications of that on the line of argument that tries to hold that "men are OK with women watching porn, why shouldn't women be OK with men watching porn." In a nut, while some women enjoy the kind of porn that's out there, most porn is made expressly for male enjoyment. I'll try to find a link to that later and post it here.

But in any case, I'd like to avoid that kind of discussion here if we can. I thought this could be a place not to try to convince anyone that porn is normal and healthy, etc.--many people _already_ feel that way yet have to strain to cope with the scale or extent of a partner's habit--but to talk about the real impact that it has on the lives of people whose SOs use it.


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## msbard90 (Sep 8, 2009)

I have no problem with my boyfriend watching porn, I really don't. But..... recently I saw porn that I didn't approve of, which made me extremely upset. I know that I can't change his preferences, but when he tells me that he's sexually into x,y, and z, but I see a,b,and c in his room, it really puts up a red flag as to whether he's sexually attracted to me at all.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 8, 2009)

katorade said:


> I, for instance, have no problem with my partner watching porn if it stays within the realm of my comfort levels.



I was going to add that I have no problem with my husband viewing porn until I saw this, and then realized that this statement is actually more true for me. I would have a huge problem if our sex life was neglected because he was using porn to satisfy himself, if he was viewing certain types of porn, or if he was hiding it from me (I would wonder what else he was hiding). I know someone who is having a lot of difficulty with her husband because his porn usage is far more extensive than she'd been led to believe prior to marriage. They've separated a few times because he spends so much time viewing online, watching DVD's etc and will do this to the exclusion of having a sexual relationship with her. She is taking it very personally, and it has damaged her self-esteem. I've tried to point out to her that his addiction to porn likely has nothing to do with her at all -- it seems to me (unlicensed armchair therapist that I am ) that his particular core issue is that he's afraid of intimacy. Her deepest fear is that he's not attracted to her. He is probably fearful of getting too close to her. They keep on communicating right past each other. I can't think of a lonelier existence than that - to feel so alienated and so alone when in the same room with the person that you love. Had he been my husband, I probably wouldn't have been able to stay married to him. Porn usage alone wouldn't bother me, if he used it to supplement/enhance our sex life, and I'd certain understand that sometimes, he's not in the mood for the preparatory rituals involving sex. The secrecy, the lies, and using porn as a means of avoiding intimacy ... that would kill the relationship, for me.


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## lypeaches (Sep 8, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> In a nut, while some women enjoy the kind of porn that's out there, most porn is made expressly for male enjoyment. I'll try to find a link to that later and post it here.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Mies (Sep 8, 2009)

Another thoughtful post, TraciJo. I would like to comment on hiding porn. Your question "I would wonder what else he is hiding" is legitimate, but I know that for me, there is a certain level of embarassment that I feel about using it openly. My wife knows and is tolerant of my use, but I am not comfortable sharing it because it is not something she is interested in. I also think that my age has something to do with it - people weren't as open about porn in my youth as they are now. We all bought Playboy "to read the articles".


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 8, 2009)

Mies said:


> Another thoughtful post, TraciJo. I would like to comment on hiding porn. Your question "I would wonder what else he is hiding" is legitimate, but I know that for me, there is a certain level of embarassment that I feel about using it openly. My wife knows and is tolerant of my use, but I am not comfortable sharing it because it is not something she is interested in. I also think that my age has something to do with it - people weren't as open about porn in my youth as they are now. We all bought Playboy "to read the articles".



Mies, I've actually never seen my husband using porn, nor have I uncovered any evidence that he does. For all I know, it could be something that he's just not interested in ... though I assume that, like you, he probably does view at times and simply doesn't wish to disclose that to me (for whatever reason). I've never cared enough to actually ask ... but if I did, I would expect an honest answer from him. Still ... given that we've never had any difficulties with porn, if I knew that he used it and embarrassment was the issue rather than a need for secrecy (which in turns fuels any kind of addiction), I don't think I'd be too upset about it. I know too many women, though, who feel that it is a big problem and it becomes this huge, loudly bellowing elephant in the room that both feel the need to tiptoe around. He, because he either refuses to acknowledge that it's a problem & uses the "healthy, red-blooded male" excuse; she, because it causes her tremendous emotional pain yet she doesn't see it as sufficient reason to end the relationship (again, for whatever that reason may be). 

My sisters are deeply religious, and both strongly object to the usage of porn in any way at all (in fact, they consider it to be a 'perversion' of sorts). I disagree with their rationale, and I'd hate to be married to someone who felt so strongly about it. Yet, this is how they feel, and their feelings run deep, and they aren't ever going to change their minds. Their husbands know how they feel, knew before they were married, and I don't think it's an unreasonable request for them to abstain altogether, given how strongly their wives feel. I've never had any kind of discussion about this with my brothers-in-law D @ how excruciating THAT conversation would be) but assume, given that it's a non-issue in their marital relationships, that they're agreeable to it. 

And LOL @ "to read the articles" which is, in fact, the same excuse I used as a girl, when caught with my father's Playboy. It was at least partially true


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## Vespertine (Sep 8, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I would have a huge problem if our sex life was neglected because he was using porn to satisfy himself, if he was viewing certain types of porn, or if he was hiding it from me (I would wonder what else he was hiding).



This. Truthfully, if our sex life was neglected for porn, I don't think I could move past it. I can't think of anything more insulting, even if it is likely a compulsion and the guy needs help. I haven't come across this yet, thankfully.

I've known many male friends, gay and straight that seemed to have unhealthy obsession with porn, amassing huge collections(and spending a fortune in the process) that eventually become so unmanageable/overwhelming they get rid of it all. These types tend to hide what is going on but if I get a hint of that tendency in a man, I stay far away.


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## superodalisque (Sep 8, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> I hope this thread will *not* be seen as an opportunity for controversy or for denying the valid feelings of some of us, or as an opportunity to try to cast people as "prudes" or "biddies."
> 
> This thread is for talking about the negative impact that porn can have on a relationship and about setting boundaries. While many women are perfectly fine with their SO's occasional use of porn--some even encouraging it--there's no denying that the ubiquity of porn in our lives can sometimes mean that "it gets to us."
> 
> ...





in my personal opinion boundaries for porn are like boundaries for anything that can potentially be abused in a relationship. abusive substances are potential deal breakers. its the same as it always has been for me both before and after internet porn. yes i remember pre internet hehe. this is just my opinion: i am comfortable with a guy viewing porn as long as it doesn't impact his or his woman's life negatively. it should be his own private personal business. i don't want to see it, know about it or exactly why how and who he likes about it. but i think he has a right to have private fantasies because even if he is with me he still belongs to himself just like my thoughts are my own. i respect that. i don't go through a man's phone, computer or anything else. i don't call a man to check up on him. if he doesn't want to be with me i can't force him. the way i look at it is if i'm that worried something is already wrong. i don't need corraboration. if he makes me feel as though i have to compete with any other woman in any form for his affection all bets are off anyway. if he was really interested he wouldn't want to make me feel that way. if you are the type who has to look through things to find stuff you are unhappy with looking at you really need to find someone who has a similar outlook that you do in my opinion. i don't think you'll feel very happy about having to police a man that your with. he might resent you for it as well. if porn does impact the rest of his life too it can be an obssession or an addiction. in that case a woman can make any decision she likes to deal with the problem. she can ask him to get treatment or counseling, and if he doesn't she needs to decide if she can deal with it our not. 

my personal feeling is that if a man is always talking to you about porn or viewing porn all of the time he has a problem because: most thoughtful men who are that deeply into porn would not react the way that they might expect you to react if you were always talking about and looking at porn actors in front of them. they would be hurt if you were always talking about how hot you found some guy to be and using thier image to to mastrubate to with thier full knowledge even when they were available. i think he'd be especially hurt if you actually preferred that kind of interaction to him. if he truly doesn't care anymore he is really far gone for sure. if he can't understand your feeling that way you have to step back and think about whether he really has the kind of emotional intelligence you need in a man. believe me, here are a lot of men out there who don't need you to explain why that would be a problem for you. you really need to think about what your dealing with if you have one of those. addiction isn't the only problem you could face.

no one should make you feel bad if you can't tolerate a certian thing in man. after all its your life. you know what you want. you don't have to sacrifice your feelings to anyone


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## superodalisque (Sep 8, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> There's another thread somewhere where I and others tried to hash out the "why" most porn that's produced is not made for women, and the implications of that on the line of argument that tries to hold that "men are OK with women watching porn, why shouldn't women be OK with men watching porn." In a nut, while some women enjoy the kind of porn that's out there, most porn is made expressly for male enjoyment. I'll try to find a link to that later and post it here.
> 
> But in any case, I'd like to avoid that kind of discussion here if we can. I thought this could be a place not to try to convince anyone that porn is normal and healthy, etc.--many people _already_ feel that way yet have to strain to cope with the scale or extent of a partner's habit--but to talk about the real impact that it has on the lives of people whose SOs use it.



i think most men who say they don't have a problem with women watching porn is because for them its more of an idea than it is a reality--more so if they know she is mastrubating with it. i think they'd probably have the same reaction a lot of women do if things were really the same on all levels.


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## Fascinita (Sep 8, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> As a woman, the kind of porn I'd enjoy seeing is having a man take care of all my household chores, while I maintain control of the remote control, thank you very much.
> :smitten:



Or how about this? :smitten:


View attachment 69817


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 9, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i think most men who say they don't have a problem with women watching porn is because for them its more of an idea than it is a reality--more so if they know she is mastrubating with it. i think they'd probably have the same reaction a lot of women do if things were really the same on all levels.



I think you are probably right here.

In my first marraige my sexual appetite was a HUGE issue. I wanted sex more than him, I wanted more than variety than he did, I enjoyed vibrators and other such things, and I would want to watch porn with him which made him uncomfortable. 

I don't even know if this ties in to the subject anymore. It did in my head when I first started writing it but then I forgot where I was going with it.


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## Tad (Sep 9, 2009)

fatgirlflyin said:


> I don't even know if this ties in to the subject anymore. It did in my head when I first started writing it but then I forgot where I was going with it.



I think it did. I suspect that this isn't as uncommon as all that....but how many guys would complain to anyone other than their partner? You can imagine what response most guys (and probably some women) would give him.


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## Tina (Sep 9, 2009)

I suppose that anyone who has read my posts about porn knows how I feel about it. I think that in general ours has become a porn-normalized society, and to its detriment, because it's seeped into almost every level and aspect of society, which I don't think is healthy (porn ring tones, thongs for little girls, mainstream videos having been directed by porn directors -- let's leave porn within the adult realm, shall we?). And with porn being so easily accessible, porn addictions (a relative of sex addiction) has become the fastest growing addiction in recent years. Maybe it could be that in some ways, wanking to porn is quick and efficient in a society that counts time in nanoseconds and with workers who spend more time at work than ever and have dwindling free time with spouses. Dunno. Anyway...



TraciJo67 said:


> I've tried to point out to her that his addiction to porn likely has nothing to do with her at all -- it seems to me (unlicensed armchair therapist that I am ) that his particular core issue is that he's afraid of intimacy.


Ask any expert in the area and they will tell you that that is exactly true, Traci. 


lypeaches said:


> As a woman, the kind of porn I'd enjoy seeing is having a man take care of all my household chores, while I maintain control of the remote control, thank you very much.
> :smitten:


LOL Janelle, they have a calender at Borders that is just up your alley. It's photos of half-naked men doing chores around the house. What I don't like as much is that it has these pat-answer word balloons that say "Yes, dear, whatever you want, dear" and the like. Not a fan of the condescending, pat 'husband-like' answers, but enjoyed the photos. 


Fascinita said:


> Whether we're dealing with SOs who won't or can't cut back on or stop looking at porn--maybe some who have even stopped paying attention to us in favor of looking at porn, or who lie or try to conceal the extent or frequency of their porn use--or we're talking about the over-abundance of images of women as objects that can make us feel like we have to "keep up" to keep our SO's attentions, what negative effects do you think porn has had on your relationship and your life?


What is 'normal' porn usage? I have no idea, but I do believe that one is looking at some form of habit-turned-addiction if one's partner is spending inordinate amounts of time browsing porn, collecting porn (hoarding, really), taking time and sexual energy away from his (and porn addicts are _almost_ always male, while the female-to-male ratio of sex addicts is a bit higher than that of porn addicts) partner, and most importantly, lies about it repeatedly, even to himself. There is a lot of shame surrounding sex for many, and the lying and hiding and being in denial can just become ingrained.

Further, I've wondered if the ratio of porn addict FAs isn't even a bit higher than in the rest of society. The reason I say this is that liking fat women has for so long been a kind of 'shameful attraction in many ways, so that many (if not most) go underground for a while after realizing their preference and before deciding not to give a shit. That already is encouragement to hide and lie and be furtive about it. Can kind of set up the foundation for some of the behaviors that can signal possible addiction (hoarding, because until more recently there haven't been a lot of paysites and images of naked and half-naked fat women -- and hiding, because of the aforementioned). Anyway, just one of those things I've pondered.



> As well, how do you negotiate boundaries--again, in a culture where there is a seeming ever-increasing availability of pornographic images of women--with your SO about porn?


IMO, that depends upon if one's SO is willing and able to admit there is a problem, if there is one. And second, is it something that you (the general "you") don't like the idea of him doing (viewing porn, I mean), or does it truly seem to be an addiction, where he is taking time away from you in order to go masturbate to porn so that your sex life is suffering, and is he lying about it so that your relationship intimacy and ability to trust is suffering? Has it gone beyond that, so that it has escalated and he's starting to spend more and more time viewing porn and less and less with you? Is he starting to chat with other women, do cam connections, actually planning on hooking up and registering on personals sites? If so, and you don't mind that he does such things, fine. But for most in a mutually agreed upon monogamous relationship, this is as dangerous to the intimacy, trust and actual viability of a relationship as if one were living with a practicing drug addict or alcoholic. Moreso in some ways, if he is taking it to the real-life level, he's leaving himself, and you, open to disease. These men who have gone so far with it often have to lose their jobs, their wives and children, to be able to see that it's a problem in their lives. If you look around, you'll see women who are the walking wounded after having been in a LTR with a sex addict. Here, the end brings me to the beginning:


Risible said:


> As with any behavior that needs to be "negotiated" or compromised on in a mate, I think it's best to know what you're (the general you) getting into before becoming deeply involved. I understand internet porn has broken up marriages - if your partner is "into" that, then it's best to know about it upfront and decide if you can tolerate it, not how much, but *if*.


If you're getting into a relationship with a porn addict, you may have no clue at all, because it's often a secret, shameful addiction that is being well-hidden. Living with the person can often give clues, though, because it's hard to totally hide what one is from the person they spend their lives with. Early on, it's easy to dismiss porn use as being 'normal,' and especially if the relationship is intimate, with plenty of sex. As it goes along, many partners of addicts start to see evidence of more than just a little porn use, and also notice a declining sex life. By the time you see what he is, you're often already in love. Now what? Often, the addict must give up the porn use, but more importantly, always must give up the lying and hiding. That ends up being the true boundary when it comes to actual addiction.

So, no, not all guys who look at porn are addicts, certainly. But my focus here is on addiction because of the way the OP is worded. If it were just a simple matter of a few pictures, there wouldn't be much to talk about. 


Fascinita said:


> This is where I stand, too. If you can respect my comfort level and agreed-upon boundaries, then it's fine. In the end, this is what it may be about for ALL couples?


Yes, I think so, if boundaries are able to be respected. If it's not an addiction and common ground is able to be met upon, wherein the person who is viewing porn is an active participant in drawing the boundaries and is willing and able to actually stay within them.


> I think, too, that maybe porn precipitates problems a couple would have at some point, sooner or later, in any case. A person who lies about the extent of his or her porn use is a liar any way you slice it--not to mention inconsiderate and not worthy of trust. The issue then is not the porn, right? It's the lack of integrity.


IMO it's both. The porn is the vehicle, though, because often it will be the thing he has chosen to lie about the most, _if_ he is an addict. In that case, they are intertwined, and what will often happen is that he cannot separate the porn use from the lying and vice-versa. Ingrained shame-driven lies.


katorade said:


> We have ALL known the woman that says "it is disrespectful for him to be watching porn, or for him to say he thinks another woman is attractive. I should be the only person he has eyes for." That alone can make a guy become really secretive about even a completely normal, average porn habit.


Heh. As if _anyone_ will never find any person other than their mate attractive, eh? That's ridiculous. So much has to do with how it is expressed, though. Yes, you're right that with some it's a real sign of low self-esteem and they feel threatened by any possibility of attraction to anyone else -- like even a celebrity, from afar. It's another thing if one's mate is obviously ogling other women in a wolfish way and within a moment already has her undressed in his mind and is half-way to hard. That, to me, is totally disrespectful, and is something that would warn me away from the guy in an instant. Been there, no thanks.


Fascinita said:


> I think it's a matter of boundaries and respect, again. What about the person who uses porn every chance he gets? Even if you're OK with porn use, isn't that particular scenario then "disrespectful of him," in your average, normal couple?


I think it's way more complicated than respect or disrespect. _Way_ more complicated.


superodalisque said:


> i think most men who say they don't have a problem with women watching porn is because for them its more of an idea than it is a reality--more so if they know she is mastrubating with it. i think they'd probably have the same reaction a lot of women do if things were really the same on all levels.


I think that also porn use is often less problematic when it comes to women viewing it than men in the sense that there are fewer women who are addicted to it. Not only that, but its sometimes bonus points with guys who are into porn for a woman to say that she likes it, too  so that rather than her being stigmatized for it, she gets points.

For those wondering about porn addiction, here is a online test in order to gauge whether there may be a problem with porn addiction, and an interesting link...


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 10, 2009)

Reading this thread.....I started thinking about how I wouldn't mind a sister thread about HER porn use and his feelings about it. Women luvs teh pr0n, too......


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## Tina (Sep 10, 2009)

That would likely be something for the FA/FFA board, I think. I would expect it to be very different.


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## itsfine (Sep 11, 2009)

I discuss this early in a relationship, when appropriate. 

I state my feelings on the issue, and listen to his. We work something out.

I had a boyfriend who swore up and down he didn't look at it, and then I found some pretty crazy stuff on his PC when trying to find a file I saved. I talked to him about it, didn't yell or anything crazy - sometimes people are just embarassed to open up about that stuff. 

If I were to have this happen a second time, I think it would be an issue of incompatibility and perhaps trust, but I play it by ear.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 11, 2009)

Tina said:


> That would likely be something for the FA/FFA board, I think. I would expect it to be very different.




Winds up James doesn't want it on the FA/FFA board so I asked him to put it on the weight board.


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## Admiral_Snackbar (Sep 12, 2009)

As someone who used to make compilation videos for couples (hetero and lesbian), I would say every situation is unique.

We have to look at it from two perspectives: Is it the amount/style of porn or the frequency/usage? Let's say the woman wants sex 2-3 times a week but he wants it every night. Either she can't or won't do it that often, or perhaps he simply doesn't want to obligate her. He goes to his special place, pulls out a video and does the deed. He may be thinking about his lady, perhaps not. His needs satisfied, he goes back to bed or whatever, and moves on. His relationship is secure, he's still servicing his lady and she doesn't want (or care) what he uses to get off on the side. In some cases they choose a porn to watch together to get into the mood, but it goes away once the foreplay intensifies or the sex begins. In other cases the couple ends up making their own porn (wink wink nudge nudge saynomore).

Then the other perspective is the guy who needs it saturating every aspect of his life. He has porn ringtones that his gf/wife hears, he needs porn to get her in the mood, porn to get himself in the mood to be with her, or he's completely ignored her for the fantasy that he can't have. Perhaps what he enjoys in fantasy he doesn't dare ask for in reality, or figures there's some sort of boundary of acceptance (I forget about that movie scene where the gangster is talking about the oral he gets from his mistress, and when his buddy asks why his wife just doesn't to it he says "heyy, she kisses our kids with that mouth.").

In the former case, I see little problem. If the guy is however going to his special place to watch Japanese tentacle rape porn and always pictures that when he's with his lady, then we have obviously crossed a line. If they choose some couples title from Vivid, and they talk over what they like and dislike, or she offers to do something based on the video, then to me it's an enhancement. My cardinal rule is that porn should be an enhancement at best, a placebo when necessary, but never a replacement for healthy sexual relations.

In the latter case, and as other prior posters have indicated, that would be a problem. When someone asks how much is too much, the response I have is whether a flesh and blood woman still arouses him without porn present. Porn also tends to have a precipice effect; milder scenes sometimes (not always) lead to more hardcore, more fetishistic, more fantastical scenes. This is often the boat the anti-porn crusaders ride: Pinups lead to Playboy, which leads to hardcore XXX which leads to fetish porn which leads to bondage porn which leads to illegal rape porn which leads to actual rape which leads to rape/murder and so on. This does happen, in rare instances but it's not the norm.

Also there is this issue of disclosing the types of porn a person watches. This to me is always dangerous territory, like asking someone how many lovers they've had in the past. Let's assume we exclude the really dark territory stuff like snuff, pedo, illegal stuff. Take an average guy. He likes different types of porn, but he gets really turned on by a guy ejaculating on a woman's face. There's a very good chance he would either never ask his lady to perform this act for him, or an even better chance that if he were, she would outright refuse, possibly with a strong rebuke. It's one of the few acts I've seen in porn that I find very little reflection in real life; in porn, it's practically _de rigueur_ and some viewers are - I'm sad to relate - almost angry when a woman on the video turns away from the money shot. God forbid a fantasy woman not enjoy the thing she is doing 

The only response I could make to a woman who suddenly finds her man's computer hard drive or video box full of hardcore anal or facial porn is not to prejudge. There's a good chance he had that interest before meeting you, and that it has little to do with how he desires you or sees you; it's an outlet for his fantasies, and there is likely a good chance he may never expect or ask you to replicate it. In a slightly similar analogy, just because your husband spends a lot of money and time on fantasy football doesn't mean he'd leave you in a heartbeat for a chance to play the gridiron. If however he starts buying Vaseline by the case or thinks squirting you with a water gun full of hand lotion is hot, you may want to have a heart-to-heart.

Obviously mileage varies. Some couples have made peace with each other's respective porn (a girlfriend of mine long ago LOVED watching gay porn--it was not my cup of tea, nor did she grab her dildo and eye my butt lasciviously), and in some cases it has wrecked relationships and marriages.


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## Tina (Sep 12, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Winds up James doesn't want it on the FA/FFA board so I asked him to put it on the weight board.


Hmmm... maybe I was wrong in suggesting it then. Sorry about that, GEF. :blush:


Admiral_Snackbar said:


> My cardinal rule is that porn should be an enhancement at best, a placebo when necessary, but never a replacement for healthy sexual relations.


Agreed.


> Porn also tends to have a precipice effect; milder scenes sometimes (not always) lead to more hardcore, more fetishistic, more fantastical scenes. This is often the boat the anti-porn crusaders ride: Pinups lead to Playboy, which leads to hardcore XXX which leads to fetish porn which leads to bondage porn which leads to illegal rape porn which leads to actual rape which leads to rape/murder and so on. This does happen, in rare instances but it's not the norm.


Yeah, I think that's the worst-case scenario. However, there are some very frequent really crappy scenarios, as related to addiction, in which your average every day porn leads to more porn, which leads to more graphic porn, which leads to chats which leads to real life hook-ups. This is more common than one might think. Less commonly, as with addiction, it never accelerates at all. I just want to make it clear that I'm speaking about addiction and addicts, not your average porn use, whatever that is.


> Obviously mileage varies. Some couples have made peace with each other's respective porn (a girlfriend of mine long ago LOVED watching gay porn--it was not my cup of tea, nor did she grab her dildo and eye my butt lasciviously), and in some cases it has wrecked relationships and marriages.


Heh. I'm sure you were relieved... Or, were you secretly eying that copy of "Bend Over, Boyfriend"?


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## mossystate (Sep 12, 2009)

Admiral_Snackbar said:


> The only response I could make to a woman who suddenly finds her man's computer hard drive or video box full of hardcore anal or facial porn is not to prejudge. There's a good chance he had that interest before meeting you, and that it has little to do with how he desires you or sees you; it's an outlet for his fantasies, and there is likely a good chance he may never expect or ask you to replicate it. In a slightly similar analogy, just because your husband spends a lot of money and time on fantasy football doesn't mean he'd leave you in a heartbeat for a chance to play the gridiron. If however he starts buying Vaseline by the case or thinks squirting you with a water gun full of hand lotion is hot, you may want to have a heart-to-heart.
> 
> .



Your post seems to be you saying what is harmless and what is not. That is fine for your life...but it does not fit for everyone. It does not always matter if the man is going to ask something of me...or not. If it something that I find really offensive, I will do all the judging I want. Yes, I wouldn't have known ( maybe...as those kinds of secretive behaviors can come out in ways as far removed from the issue as possible ) if I hadn't found it...but, if I do find out...it is my life...not anybody elses.


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## wrestlingguy (Sep 12, 2009)

While the points I'm about to make relate to what is right for me, and me only, I think that some people may be able to wrap their hands around some of this and see where it might fit in with their perspective.

First, I believe that BBW porn is different than mainstream porn, for the same reasons why I feel that being attracted to BBW's is different than what the rest of the world would consider "normal". As FA's, guys are attracted to fat, curves, cellulite and many other things that the non FA world would not be attracted to. I don't believe that it's fetish related, but may border on it.

I also believe that BBW porn sets an unrealistic perception about BBW's in general that makes it hard for the non webmodels to overcome. Most BBW porn these days centers around eating, gaining weight, tight, or tearing clothes, and other things that the majority of the BBW's that I know are not necessarily all about. So, the FA goes out into the real world and believes that every fat woman he's about to meet wants to eat, gain weight, rip their clothes, get stuck in chairs, and satisfy every fantasy that he's seen on a paysite or video. I think we can all agree that it isn't healthy for real life relationships to have preconceived notions like this.

Another note of concern is how FA's take this to events like meetups and bashes. I've written in previous posts how I get shocked over the many men who come to events JUST to see the webmodels, walking right past many beautiful (and sexy) women who simply CHOOSE not to make BBW porn. Again, I believe that it screams to women that as a FA, I will not choose you unless you have a website. It demeans the women who have made a conscious choice, and as a FA I may at some point have to overcome a perception that I may be like all the rest of "you guys". I don't want to be part of that generalization, just as the non-website women don't want to necessarily be considered gainers, feedees, etc......

Lastly, with the plethora of BBW webmodels on the net these days, there is so much NEW free porn at a guy's disposal. I think it's easy for a guy to sit back and survey the porn field on a daily basis looking for new fap material. I think having an overabundance of this in your life certainly affects any relationship one might be in, both in a sexual and psychological way. My guess is that in many cases, if your guy isn't paying as much attention to you as he was before, it's because he's having an online obsession with the newest fat webmodel. 

Now, I'm not saying this is true of all FA's by any means, but I know a lot of guys who have fallen into this trap, and have lost many good women as a result.

I could probably write pages about this, and may do so at a later date, but at least wanted to get my basic feelings about the subject into this thread. As someone who has struggled with a SO participating in BBW porn, I also have a lot to say on how BBW porn modeling affects relationships as well, but that's not what this thread is about.


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## superodalisque (Sep 12, 2009)

wrestlingguy said:


> While the points I'm about to make relate to what is right for me, and me only, I think that some people may be able to wrap their hands around some of this and see where it might fit in with their perspective.
> 
> First, I believe that BBW porn is different than mainstream porn, for the same reasons why I feel that being attracted to BBW's is different than what the rest of the world would consider "normal". As FA's, guys are attracted to fat, curves, cellulite and many other things that the non FA world would not be attracted to. I don't believe that it's fetish related, but may border on it.
> 
> ...



you make an excellent point here. its more than just the porn that can be a problem. its also the culture surrounding it. its how an FA can act at an event. that can also warp a guy. his fantastical beliefs are held out as being perfectly acceptable to anyone who is confident--which is not always true. i think a lot of men keep it all in the appropriate place but there are a lot of men who make this thier life at the sacrifice of the real. some know the difference. some don't. i think a lot make a conscious effort to choose somehing they already know is unreal. the problem with that is that they can become warped. once this is thier entire world they have a serious problem connecting IRL. the same problem can happen with BBWs. you go home get in your jammies and get online and wonder why you never meet any BBWs or FAs in IRL. FAs wonder why they don't get the same reactions IRL.

all of this stuff tends to have an intimacy blocking effect. sometimes i think FAs forget that when they go to a website or go to an event the webmodels there are being paid to say what they say and act the way that they act. it is a fantasy that they are selling. the ones who don't ever break the fantasy or the ones who do the best. sure a few believe some of that stuff or want to but most just do what they do to make a buck. your right, when they get to the real world they expect BBWs IRL to behave that way or believe those things deep down they get seriously disappointed. after all if you are into BDSM you don't go to the office in your get-up and using the language and mindset. thats private stuff. unfortuntely some FAs don't have those kinds fo boundaries . they often get disappointed when they finally encounter web models as thier real selves as well because the are really just like all of the other BBWs on the inside. they have the same doubts fears and requirements as any other women. they also need real love, intimacy and caring. they are not special cases. thats why i really like so many of them-- because they are me and all of the other BBWs here underneath everything. they are just as varied as he rest of us. they aren't just empty vessels for someone to put whatever they like into them that they might appear to be.

unfortunately there are some FAs who seem to experience the entire world as a porn site. its a shame because they miss out on a lot. not only do they ignore some regular BBWs some GET ignored by regular BBWs. they are just too shaming in their activities. its hard for a proud BBWs to submit to being with a guy she finds embarrassing. she just won't do it. a web model does not care. its her job. she has nothing emotionally invested and doesn't care if a guy is fickle or not. it doesn't bother her if a guy is always talking about how hot other webmodels are and ogling her and her friends interchangeably in an obvious way. but a truly proud BBW IRL won't like it just the same as an FA wouldn't like it done to him. i think a lot of BBWs are right that FAs have no idea what a proud BBW really looks like. they think pride means willing to expose yourself. pride also means your too self aware to take disrespect. 

so after many years of chasing after "the perfect BBW" as someone's thread said an FA can find himself alone. and because he has chosen to espose himself to a culture that isn't real he does not respect or get a benefit from the real world he isn;t involved in. he becomes imappropriately socialized by his own fantasies that porn mirrors back to him for a small fee on his credit card. i think its a big concern to BBWs exactly how a mn is intepellating porn. i should be. bu even moreso it should be of concern to FAs. they need to figure out what over indulgin is doing to thier lives. a woman can easily chose not to live with an FA. she can go out and find another man. but, it much harder for an FA to continue living with himself inunsatifying conditions.


this is why i'm so concerned that there is nothing between porn and the real world for FAs like there are for other men to bridge the gap. having porn as the only outlet for your dreams wishes and desires seriously limits a man. as much as they often pretend that they don't pay attention, the culture of romance that other men tend to get readily is all around him to influence him and socialize him in ways where he can understand that there are ways to desire women other than just sexually. that can help him to actually seek want and to develop meaningful relationships with BBWs outside of just titilation. its a shame but when i explain that to a lot of FAs either they don't seem to get it or don't want to get it. maybe this is a way for some FAS to avoid the kind of attachment that would require them to actually be with a BBW in public and not just at an event. i don't know. but when i explain it to other guys they understand right away so i don't think i'm way off base. something is missing here.

PS: the wouldn't let me rep you again


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 12, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> I hope this thread will *not* be seen as an opportunity for controversy or for denying the valid feelings of some of us, or as an opportunity to try to cast people as "prudes" or "biddies."
> 
> This thread is for talking about the negative impact that porn can have on a relationship and about setting boundaries. While many women are perfectly fine with their SO's occasional use of porn--some even encouraging it--there's no denying that the ubiquity of porn in our lives can sometimes mean that "it gets to us."
> 
> ...



I've had very few relationships overall. Most of the guys I met quite frankly weren't in to porn very much if at all. Looking at some other person having sex with a woman or some such thing didn't appeal BUT... I've had a significant number of men who were interested in filming and viewing our own sexual encounters. The answer was and shall always be a resounding no on that from me. It has lead me to consider it as a legitimate leaning however, that people may take enjoyment in watching and remembering sex featuring themselves and the one they desire. Either that or they were hoping to sell it and make money if I ever got famous. I can't really comment on what I would be able to endure in a relationship with a porn lover but I reckon I would not be bothered so much as long as it doesn't impede or precursor their ability to function.


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## Sugar (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't want to say porn broke up my marriage but I was replaced with images of something I could never be. Now I'm overly sensitive to it...

I don't care what my bf looks at per se. I'd prefer he keep it to himself so in the event its something I feel that I can never compare my feelings are spared.

It's probably not the healthiest of choices, but it's my compromise.


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## Tina (Sep 12, 2009)

Admiral_Snackbar said:


> The only response I could make to a woman who suddenly finds her man's computer hard drive or video box full of hardcore anal or facial porn is not to prejudge. *There's a good chance he had that interest before meeting you, and that it has little to do with how he desires you or sees you; it's an outlet for his fantasies, and there is likely a good chance he may never expect or ask you to replicate it*. In a slightly similar analogy, just because your husband spends a lot of money and time on fantasy football doesn't mean he'd leave you in a heartbeat for a chance to play the gridiron. If however he starts buying Vaseline by the case or thinks squirting you with a water gun full of hand lotion is hot, you may want to have a heart-to-heart.


I have to say that I believe the data bears your statement (which I bolded) out; it would also say that his porn use has nothing to do with her, nor is it her fault, nor is it because there is something lacking within her or to do with her physical makeup. It's something that was likely in place before he and she ever met. However, I would like to say that she has full rights to dislike and feel uncomfortable with it, and also to pre-judge if she feels it's warranted or sets off her own buttons. Such a situation calls for a discussion between the two and mutual understanding and respect, but I don't think her feelings should ever be discounted nor treated lightly, and I don't think women should be told how to feel about it.


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## olwen (Sep 12, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> I hope this thread will *not* be seen as an opportunity for controversy or for denying the valid feelings of some of us, or as an opportunity to try to cast people as "prudes" or "biddies."
> 
> This thread is for talking about the negative impact that porn can have on a relationship and about setting boundaries. While many women are perfectly fine with their SO's occasional use of porn--some even encouraging it--there's no denying that the ubiquity of porn in our lives can sometimes mean that "it gets to us."
> 
> ...




For me personally, since my own kinks are a bit on the extreme side, I find most porn to be rather boring. Even some of the SM porn I've seen is boring, so it really wouldn't matter to me what a guy is watching assuming all participants are old enough. I'd think that because porn gets old fast, one would need a constant stream of new images. The same theme can be played out over and over, but new scenarios and such are the only things to make it fresh. Least it's been that way for my own porn use. But since it is so hard to find what I like, I don't bother much. I just rely on my imagination. 

Not watching porn doesn't guarantee that a guy isn't thinking of someone else or something else while with you in bed. I know I've been guilty of a wandering mind while in the middle of sex. If a woman is of the mind that her SO is only supposed to be turned on by her and her alone, then she's got some issues. It would be unrealistic to expect a guy to not look while you're out and about. Hell I look myself. It's just how that is expressed seems to be the bigger problem. If he's discreet and respectful about it, then it's fine, but if he's openly drooling then there's a problem. I'd say the same goes for porn use. He should respect your boundaries, assuming they are realistic. To me a realistic boundary is asking your SO to not watch porn when you are around if it is that bothersome.

I do wonder what a guy would say about an SO who had a rather large romance novel collection. I'm assuming tho that women who read romance novels read them for the fantasy aspects and they know it is fantasy. Would they really expect their SOs to behave and look like the men in those books? Do men feel threatened by them? Are they on a different level of fantasy because they are books and not images?

Like Lilly, I've been in the position where guys would prefer to take video or pictures, to which I've always said no thanks. I'd have more of a problem with a fuck buddy who wanted to film us than one who wanted to just watch it together.

I would think too that if a guy had an addiction to porn it would come out at some point while dating, which might give a woman time to decide if she wanted to deal with that. I suppose a chat about porn use in general would be in order from the beginning.


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## StarWitness (Sep 12, 2009)

I used to feel insecure about the concept of a boyfriend of mine viewing porn, but that gradually changed due to (a) the fact that none of the guys I've dated have used it to an unhealthy amount, and (b) the fact that I read enough erotica to make me a big ol' hypocrite if I'm opposed to porn on principle. It hasn't been a relationship issue yet.

I've tried watching porn of all sorts, but 99.999% of it looks completely ridiculous, in my opinion.


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## Admiral_Snackbar (Sep 12, 2009)

Tina said:


> Heh. I'm sure you were relieved... Or, were you secretly eying that copy of "Bend Over, Boyfriend"?


Not at all, dirty birdie.  I did give it the college try and watched one with her--just not my cup of tea. Regardless of the fact it was two guys, one of them definitely took the sub/femme position during the whole deal. Everything was also a lot more violent, subjugative. Why some of these things always have to involve belittling someone else is beyond me.



mossystate said:


> Your post seems to be you saying what is harmless and what is not. That is fine for your life...but it does not fit for everyone. It does not always matter if the man is going to ask something of me...or not. If it something that I find really offensive, I will do all the judging I want. Yes, I wouldn't have known ( maybe...as those kinds of secretive behaviors can come out in ways as far removed from the issue as possible ) if I hadn't found it...but, if I do find out...it is my life...not anybody elses.


 Firstly, I made a point to say "mileage may vary." I can't speak directly to how anyone may react to finding their S.O.'s 'stash,' only not to react with both guns blazing (again, assuming standard fare and not something you would resort to contacting the authorities over). Secondly, you are well within your right to object to what he's presenting to you, just keep in mind that offensive to you may not be for him. Sadly there are guys out there who grew up with little common knowledge about sexual behavior other than what they gleaned from Debbie Does Dallas.



Tina said:


> I have to say that I believe the data bears your statement (which I bolded) out; it would also say that his porn use has nothing to do with her, nor is it her fault, nor is it because there is something lacking within her or to do with her physical makeup. It's something that was likely in place before he and she ever met. However, I would like to say that she has full rights to dislike and feel uncomfortable with it, and also to pre-judge if she feels it's warranted or sets off her own buttons. Such a situation calls for a discussion between the two and mutual understanding and respect, but I don't think her feelings should ever be discounted nor treated lightly, and I don't think women should be told how to feel about it.



I agree a woman is entitled to react however she wishes. I would also say that for some guys I would imagine opening up his porn cache for his lady's consideration is about as open as he may get with her initially--he's letting her into his fantasy chambers so to speak, and that's a very vulnerable spot for a guy to put himself. Then again some guys may be as blase about what they prefer up front (as may some women). With some of those alt.com and similar websites, you can pretty much stipulate you sexual preference about ANYTHING. 



StarWitness said:


> I used to feel insecure about the concept of a boyfriend of mine viewing porn, but that gradually changed due to (a) the fact that none of the guys I've dated have used it to an unhealthy amount, and (b) the fact that I read enough erotica to make me a big ol' hypocrite if I'm opposed to porn on principle. It hasn't been a relationship issue yet.
> 
> I've tried watching porn of all sorts, but 99.999% of it looks completely ridiculous, in my opinion.


I would assume if I was having sex with a woman, with my leg thrown over her thigh at an uncomfortable angle with a hot light and camera just under my testicles in order to get the proper video angle, all the while acting as if I am enjoying having this muscle-straining sex with someone I likely just met 30 minutes ago, I'd probably feel pretty ridiculous, too.


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## mossystate (Sep 13, 2009)

Admiral_Snackbar said:


> Firstly, I made a point to say "mileage may vary." I can't speak directly to how anyone may react to finding their S.O.'s 'stash,' only *not to react *with both guns blazing (again, assuming standard fare and not something you would resort to contacting the authorities over). Secondly, you are well within your right to object to what he's presenting to you, just keep in mind that offensive to you may not be for him. Sadly there are guys out there who grew up with little common knowledge about sexual behavior other than what they gleaned from Debbie Does Dallas.




You came into the bbw forum to tell women how they should look at things. You told women that A and B should be of no concern...however, C should tell them they need to have a chat with their SO. 

I think I realize that what is not OK for me, might be OK for ' him '. You are going against,in a very schooling manner, the very spirit of this thread...His porn use...YOUR feelings ( your meaning bbw ).

" Not to react "....is telling women how ' we ' should feel/operate. I don't get why you continue to not understand the proposed conversation. This is not so much about the particulars of porn.

_"Iwould also say that for some guys I would imagine opening up his porn cache for his lady's consideration is about as open as he may get with her initially--he's letting her into his fantasy chambers so to speak, and that's a very vulnerable spot for a guy to put himself"_

Again...this is about BBW FEELINGS on the matter...in THEIR lives. Why not start a thread on the fa forum, addressing the difficulties that men face, when the fat woman in their lives are suspect of their porn use. Can't you let bbw have this to talk about our feelings...that might not be yours? It is denying feelings when there is a, " have at your feelings....BUT "......


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## Carrie (Sep 13, 2009)

Lucky said:


> I don't want to say porn broke up my marriage but I was replaced with images of something I could never be. Now I'm overly sensitive to it...
> 
> I don't care what my bf looks at per se. I'd prefer he keep it to himself so in the event its something I feel that I can never compare my feelings are spared.
> 
> It's probably not the healthiest of choices, but it's my compromise.


There are moments on this board when I'm really just struck so hard by the fact that I'm not alone in the struggles in my life, and that other people do get it. This is one of them. I could have written this myself, Sarah, so close it is to one of my own experiences. The pain is still quite profound. When someone would rather sit at a computer looking at images of bodies they will never know, rather than touch the very real, very different body right in the next room, that's a hurt that cuts right to one's core. 

Anyway. I just wanted to say that yep, I get it. Thank you for sharing that.


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## Sugar (Sep 13, 2009)

Carrie said:


> There are moments on this board when I'm really just struck so hard by the fact that I'm not alone in the struggles in my life, and that other people do get it. This is one of them. I could have written this myself, Sarah, so close it is to one of my own experiences. The pain is still quite profound. When someone would rather sit at a computer looking at images of bodies they will never know, rather than touch the very real, very different body right in the next room, that's a hurt that cuts right to one's core.
> 
> Anyway. I just wanted to say that yep, I get it. Thank you for sharing that.



Awwwww, thanks for saying something. It's a very sore spot for me, but I'm so glad we have a place like this we can say as much or as little as we like.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 13, 2009)

This is definitely an issue that I've struggled with, particularly when I was younger and more insecure about myself and my body. I always felt betrayed when the man in my life looked at porn, because I felt like if I was "enough", he wouldn't need/want it. However, over the years, as I've become more secure in myself and my sexuality, and as I've talked to the men I've known over the years, it bothers me less. I'm not saying that porn doesn't bother me at all (I still have issues with how women are objectified, even when they choose it for themselves), because it does bother me, at least a little bit. But I've perhaps swallowed that whole "men like variety" thing hook, line and sinker and have come to terms with it. Mostly. On good days. 

I just wonder how men would feel if their sweetie pie had a hard drive full of pictures of naked men. I wonder if they'd feel just a little bit insecure. How lucky for them that, by and large, women aren't as visually motivated, sexually speaking.


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## SparklingBBW (Sep 13, 2009)

Carrie said:


> There are moments on this board when I'm really just struck so hard by the fact that I'm not alone in the struggles in my life, and that other people do get it. This is one of them. I could have written this myself, Sarah, so close it is to one of my own experiences. The pain is still quite profound. When someone would rather sit at a computer looking at images of bodies they will never know, rather than touch the very real, very different body right in the next room, that's a hurt that cuts right to one's core.
> 
> Anyway. I just wanted to say that yep, I get it. Thank you for sharing that.



Me too, although it was online gaming, not porn. But fantasy is fantasy, and he wanted fantasy over me. It was a blow to my already precarious self esteem at the time. So while I like nerdy boys, excessive gaming or excessive anything that takes someone away or keeps them away from emotional or physical intimacy, I run the other direction. 

Being lonely alone is far, far less painful than being alone, especially sexually rejected, while in a relationship. 

.


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## Fascinita (Sep 14, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> How lucky for them that, by and large, women aren't as visually motivated, sexually speaking.



This adds another complication, Vickie. Maybe women aren't as visually motivated as men, but we do have plenty of other fantasies. 

It's interesting how our conception of intimacy plays into this whole debate: To what point do we want to or should we _know_ what each other's fantasies are? To some extent, it's true that we can never know everything about other people, so this inherently puts a damper on those who would want to keep track of every single last instance of fantasy that one's SO indulges in. It simply can't be. But then I wonder, isn't it when fantasy begins to seep into one's everyday life, in terms of time we spend checking out of our relationships or jobs or other commitments and responsibilities, or in terms of bonds we break for the sake of time with fantasies--which in turn may feel like "outs" or "escape" from those very bonds--that things begin to get corrupt? 

In a sense, the indulging in fantasy is perfectly harmless. It's the consequences of unchecked fantasy and of blurred boundaries between fantasy and reality that are problematic, I think. Maybe?


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## superodalisque (Sep 14, 2009)

mossystate said:


> You came into the bbw forum to tell women how they should look at things. You told women that A and B should be of no concern...however, C should tell them they need to have a chat with their SO.
> 
> I think I realize that what is not OK for me, might be OK for ' him '. You are going against,in a very schooling manner, the very spirit of this thread...His porn use...YOUR feelings ( your meaning bbw ).
> 
> ...



i agree with this 100%. only a woman can say what she is comfortable with and what she isn't. i don't think she have to tolerate something that makes her miserable especially when there are plenty of guys out there who will respect her thoughts and wishes and fit comfortable within her vision of the kind of relationship she'd like to have. squashing down your feelings as a woman is never the answer and i don't think its fair for men to ask a woman to. if a woman's feelings don't fit into a guys needs instead of trying to force her to be another way he should just leave her alone and let her get on with finding someone compatable.


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## Tau (Sep 14, 2009)

Watching porn or viewing pornographic images as fantasy is just fine in my opinion. The problem I've found with a lot of the guys I've met in the plus community is that most don't just do that. They become obsessed with the models, try to have entire conversations about what so and so did in her last set, buy them gifts, chat, horde any and all images, stalk them on facebook... See, that's not ok in my book. If a man is with me then he's _with me._ I demand his full attention and I will not accept constant drooling or conversation about other women, whether they are part of his fantasy life or not, it's just pathetic. I understand young men and women who are intrigued by pornography, its illicit and dirty and exciting. But then I think its fairly important to wake up to the fact that most of it is really dull and ridiculous, and that real life women don't generally speak or act like that, nor do most women find being spat on or regularly shagged in the ass the pinnacle of sexual pleasure


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 14, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> This adds another complication, Vickie. Maybe women aren't as visually motivated as men, but we do have plenty of other fantasies.



True. I've been lucky that I have had an indulgent husband who has not only humored my fantasies, but has encouraged me to pursue them as I've felt comfortable. Not being as confident in myself, I haven't been able to offer him the same thing, but he's had the benefit of my sexual exploration in that I'm much happier, and he loves hearing the details. 



> It's interesting how our conception of intimacy plays into this whole debate: To what point do we want to or should we _know_ what each other's fantasies are?



That's an interesting question. I guess the way I see it is that I want to be accepting enough, open enough, and sufficiently worthy of great trust that he feels he _can_ tell me his fantasies, but not that he _must_. Of course I want to know every fantasy (or at least I think I do) but I don't think it's fair to make your partner share something they don't want to share. Discussing fantasies can be a lot of fun, but it can also be scary at first. Not only is it fun but I think it's good for a relationship because it builds intimacy and trust, and can open the relationship up to all kinds of new possibilities.

OTOH, I don't think of fantasies as having anything to do with me necessarily because they're usually about scenarios that I may or may not be involved in. But looking at other women makes me feel that I'm not good enough because if I were, he'd be looking at pictures of ME. (This was how I used to feel in my less secure days; I feel less like this now).



> But then I wonder, isn't it when fantasy begins to seep into one's everyday life, in terms of time we spend checking out of our relationships or jobs or other commitments and responsibilities, or in terms of bonds we break for the sake of time with fantasies--which in turn may feel like "outs" or "escape" from those very bonds--that things begin to get corrupt?



Yes. And this can be anything, sexual or not. It could be gambling, drinking, gaming, internet time, shopping, eating, etc etc etc. Anything that is used as an escape from the relationship can cause problems because it takes energy away from it and short circuits communication, which is necessary to repair most, if not all, problems.



> In a sense, the indulging in fantasy is perfectly harmless. It's the consequences of unchecked fantasy and of blurred boundaries between fantasy and reality that are problematic, I think. Maybe?



I think so too. Maybe. 



superodalisque said:


> i agree with this 100%. only a woman can say what she is comfortable with and what she isn't. i don't think she have to tolerate something that makes her miserable especially when there are plenty of guys out there who will respect her thoughts and wishes and fit comfortable within her vision of the kind of relationship she'd like to have. squashing down your feelings as a woman is never the answer and i don't think its fair for men to ask a woman to. if a woman's feelings don't fit into a guys needs instead of trying to force her to be another way he should just leave her alone and let her get on with finding someone compatable.



Quoted for truthiness.


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## Tooz (Sep 14, 2009)

Carrie said:


> There are moments on this board when I'm really just struck so hard by the fact that I'm not alone in the struggles in my life, and that other people do get it. This is one of them. I could have written this myself, Sarah, so close it is to one of my own experiences. The pain is still quite profound. When someone would rather sit at a computer looking at images of bodies they will never know, rather than touch the very real, very different body right in the next room, that's a hurt that cuts right to one's core.
> 
> Anyway. I just wanted to say that yep, I get it. Thank you for sharing that.



Add me to the list of people who feels this way. Honestly, I haven't had too much of an issue with this in my life, but porn worries me. If it's something we could possibly enjoy together, okay, but otherwise I'm just not on board with th' porns. :\


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## superodalisque (Sep 14, 2009)

Tau said:


> Watching porn or viewing pornographic images as fantasy is just fine in my opinion. The problem I've found with a lot of the guys I've met in the plus community is that most don't just do that. They become obsessed with the models, try to have entire conversations about what so and so did in her last set, buy them gifts, chat, horde any and all images, stalk them on facebook... See, that's not ok in my book. If a man is with me then he's _with me._ I demand his full attention and I will not accept constant drooling or conversation about other women, whether they are part of his fantasy life or not, it's just pathetic. I understand young men and women who are intrigued by pornography, its illicit and dirty and exciting. But then I think its fairly important to wake up to the fact that most of it is really dull and ridiculous, and that real life women don't generally speak or act like that, nor do most women find being spat on or regularly shagged in the ass the pinnacle of sexual pleasure




they wouldn't let me rep you . i think there is a special issue about the bbw community and porn. it seems as though it is overly dependent on porn to an abnormal degree. it makes me wonder if it fosters addiction. i know a whole lot of guys who are always viewing, can't stop thinking or talking about it and have real trouble when it comes to dealing with a real women with real thoughts and needs because of that. i see this with FAs much more than i do in the rest of the world. other men seem to get how inappropriate this really is. they don't seem to expect women they are interested in to listen to long drawn out stories about why they like judith jameson and long exhortations centering on the things that she does and what they like about it. they don't expect thier gf or a woman they are interested in to go to an event with them where they follow her and other porn actresses around and try to touch them. but for some reason the community seems to cushion guys from knowing that what they are doing is just not emotionally healthy to a large degree --for themselves or a bbw. its almost as though in this community its not quite understood that this is abnormal maybe because so many people seem to have the problem. or more than likely its hard to say to someone that he is behaving abnormally when you know he already feels abnormal and even beating himself up for for being attracted to fat women in the first place. so maybe they just don't get the wake up calls from the community that they should be getting because particularly in the past the people in it have been very protective of FAs because it was thought that was needed. what you ended up with was a bunch of older guys who were seriously beyond the pale in thier behavior who felt perfectly justified and supported in that. unfortunately for them that was not the road to happiness that people thought it might be. its better to just tell the truth so that people can be aware of what they really look like to the people they admire and even to the outside world. i'm not so sure that a lot of guys really realize there are millions of guys out there with a fat partner. they aren't threatening divorce if the women don't lose weight. people aren't all shocked and horrified that they have a fat partner except the most cruel and superficial. so maybe the reason FAs sometimes get judged and treated badly is not necessarily because they love a fat girl but because they are obssessed with fat bodies. if any man is obsessed with any kind of body and is always showing it thats going to affect how people react to you. especially if you are the one who is ashamed and inappropriate more often than not.


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## Tina (Sep 14, 2009)

Felicia, I said this above, and rather than reiterate, I'll just re-post it. I think it may have some truth in there somewhere...


> Further, I've wondered if the ratio of porn addict FAs isn't even a bit higher than in the rest of society. The reason I say this is that liking fat women has for so long been a kind of 'shameful attraction in many ways, so that many (if not most) go underground for a while after realizing their preference and before deciding not to give a shit. That already is encouragement to hide and lie and be furtive about it. Can kind of set up the foundation for some of the behaviors that can signal possible addiction (hoarding, because until more recently there haven't been a lot of paysites and images of naked and half-naked fat women -- and hiding, because of the aforementioned). Anyway, just one of those things I've pondered.


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## Fascinita (Sep 14, 2009)

Food for thought in your post, Felicia.

I also know that, for some people, it's the "otherness" and the transgressiveness of fat that attracts them. And I wonder if the draw of transgression in fat doesn't get mapped onto the transgressiveness of porn... Fat and porn, as ideas, both seem to suggest the possibility of erasing boundaries between people. 


(c.f. literary theorist Mikhail Bakhtin for discussion of the trope of 'the grotesque body' and Walter Benjamin for discussion of art in the age of mechanical reproduction.)


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## superodalisque (Sep 14, 2009)

yes both Tina and Fascinita, your posts are especially poigniant. i think the taboo aspect of it is a big driver for a lot of people. i think that is why it can be such an important issue for bbws since removing taboo can be an SA issue for us. so what some FAs may be doing seems to work directly counter to that. there aren't too many of us out there who want to be referenced like the modern day fat woman at the circus. we just want to be appreciated as the beautiful woman that we are. i think i mentioned this about taboo somewhere before but that is the crux of why porn is popular. somehow in the west it seems we have lost the ability in some part to enjoy sex for sex sex sake. maybe its our puritan roots --i'm not sure. we seem to need the illicit furtive shameful. that is a huge component in the popularity of porn. the need to feel bad or reiterate that we are bad is a part of many addictive preoccupations--not just sex. 

i think for some FAs mastrubation becomes some kind of mental self flagellation in front fo the comp screen. maybe for me this would explain the needless shame and fear associated with something that some other men do easily without thought or care. maybe there are guys who need the guilt as a component and its one of the main things that get them off. and maybe even the fact that there is a woman lying in the other room who needs them makes it even more illicit. they know they should be with her but they are not. they are spending time and effort on these other women they don't know instead of with her. there is something naughtier about that than just going next door to your bedroom and spending time with a woman who is actually touchable. add on the excitement of perhaps having the woman you are ignoring underscore that you are "bad" for not spending time with her and knowing exactly what you are spending time with. also there seems to be pleasure in shaming her as well in some aspects of it. its as though the apparent undesireabilty is constant being underscored. it might have something to do with how some men like to shame not just bbws but all women in public with other women as well. with bbws it might have an added component because if we get shamed we are supposed to become emotionally upset and eat more and gain. sometimes i think i notice that feeders or guys who want the woman they are with to gain seem to engage in behaviors that would be more likely to shame and depress a woman. what do y'all think about that issue?


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## Tina (Sep 14, 2009)

If so, I think that's pretty sad, Felicia, for both of them.


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## superodalisque (Sep 14, 2009)

yeah me too


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Sep 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> what do y'all think about that issue?



What do I think about "men" who would rather stare at a screen than be with their woman? 

I don't want to get banned tonight, but the short version is that they don't deserve any of the amazingly fun and sexy women I know. In fact, they could all start an underground commune and live like fapping moles. I'd be perfectly content to never know they exist. :happy:

Show me a "man" who takes any of you for granted and I'll get the phonebook for counselor listings because he clearly needs it; it's heartbreaking for me to consider this even happens. Turns my stomach, too, actually.


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## StarWitness (Sep 14, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> I also know that, for some people, it's the "otherness" and the transgressiveness of fat that attracts them. And I wonder if the draw of transgression in fat doesn't get mapped onto the transgressiveness of porn... Fat and porn, as ideas, both seem to suggest the possibility of erasing boundaries between people.



I definitely agree with you about the transgressive nature of a fat woman who is confident and sexy, and how that can overlap with the transgressiveness of pornography. I'm not sure I agree with the last bit, though, about boundaries being erased; porn can be very dehumanizing and still something that is forbidden in a lot of ways, and I would think that in a lot of cases, fat porn would reinforce the boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable.


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## superodalisque (Sep 14, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I definitely agree with you about the transgressive nature of a fat woman who is confident and sexy, and how that can overlap with the transgressiveness of pornography. I'm not sure I agree with the last bit, though, about boundaries being erased; porn can be very dehumanizing and still something that is forbidden in a lot of ways, and I would think that in a lot of cases, fat porn would reinforce the boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable.



is it as transgressive to admire a fat confident woman ? i'm not so sure. it might be more transgressive to desire the most negative stereotype of a fat woman that you can find. that would be the crying, out of control of her food, sloppy, dirty, poor, miserable stereotype that some FAs might seem to find great pleasure in--sometimes secretly sometimes not so secretly. the little i've seen of bbw porn seems to focus more on those aspects than on lovely beautiful confident women in general. and especially some of the more popular ones that still have staying power today have those elements at the center. some of it has been prettified but underneath it there are a lot of negative assumptions that are sometimes being played to.


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## jewels_mystery (Sep 14, 2009)

I used to find nothing wrong with porn. Then I dated someone who was addicted to it and that changed my mind. I wouldn't mind watching it occassionally with a lover. But it would never become part of our routine.


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## olwen (Sep 14, 2009)

After all this discussion I'm starting to wonder about masturbation itself. If porn were not so readily available, but your SOs still masturbated just as much, would that be an issue? Is it porn or masturbation while in a relationship that is the problem? Is there a limit for people about how much their SOs should masturbate? I'm not talking about mutual masturbation either. If all your SOs viewed porn just as much, but didn't masturbate would that make a difference?


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## Tina (Sep 15, 2009)

I think anything done to excess -- when it is used to numb feelings, as an escape, as part of an obsession -- to where it acts like a sort of wall, is a problem, whether it's masturbation without porn, or porn without masturbation. Also other things that people often use to not feel their feelings, or just to excess to where they are lying about it and pushing away their partner, whether intentionally or subconsciously. If it's none of these things, and it's just an occasional thing and not obsessive, I don't think it's a problem. 

Just read tonight a post by a woman who is in her 60s and her husband tells her he can't get it up and that's why they don't have sex. Thing is, he can, but only to young girls in porn, but not with his wife. He's been addicted to porn for years and it's been to the point where she is ashamed of her body because there's no sex between them, he just masturbates to porn featuring young women, and she covers herself up and is ashamed of her body because she cannot compete with those young bodies. He apologizes profusely, says he'll stop; he does for a while and then it starts all over again, over and over for years now (personally, I think she's stayed in that relationship for decades more than she should have, but such is life sometimes -- codependence sets in). She seems to feel used up and unattractive. This, and worse, is what porn addictions do, and that is why I tend to almost only address addictions, because I think that it's really only addictions (and its addictions that pretty much always carry the added lies that make things so much worse and destroy trust) that are problematic.


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## Fascinita (Sep 15, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I would think that in a lot of cases, fat porn would reinforce the boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable.



Can you say more about this? I'm curious.

What I meant by "erasing boundaries between people" is that porn facilitates (even hinges on) the illusion that what I, the consumer of it, want is instantly available to me in an image which stands in for another person.


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## Fascinita (Sep 15, 2009)

Tina said:


> Just read tonight a post by a woman who is in her 60s and her husband tells her he can't get it up and that's why they don't have sex. Thing is, he can, but only to young girls in porn, but not with his wife. He's been addicted to porn for years and it's been to the point where she is ashamed of her body because there's no sex between them, he just masturbates to porn featuring young women, and she covers herself up and is ashamed of her body because she cannot compete with those young bodies. He apologizes profusely, says he'll stop; he does for a while and then it starts all over again, over and over for years now (personally, I think she's stayed in that relationship for decades more than she should have, but such is life sometimes -- codependence sets in). She seems to feel used up and unattractive. This, and worse, is what porn addictions do, and that is why I tend to almost only address addictions, because I think that it's really only addictions (and its addictions that pretty much always carry the added lies that make things so much worse and destroy trust) that are problematic.



Leave the geezer! Find a more caring man.

There is a mechanical aspect in porn use as we know it now, I think, and its mechanism is one of male entitlement. On what planet should a man with those shortcomings benefit from the companionship and care of a loyal wife? Yet so many women know too well how to play the good, giving, and game girls (apologies to whathisname), to stunt their own desires. Eff that.


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 15, 2009)

Porn, or anything really, become a problem when there are lies associated with it. When one partner chooses to lie about their behavior (for whatever reason) to the other partner, it totally changes the nature of their relationship. When the object that is being lied about is one of a sexual nature I think it can be even more damaging because feelings of inadequacy are bound to set in. Its very hard to bounce back from something like that and it takes a strong dedicated couple to even make the attempt. 

Regarding fat porn bridging the gap between acceptable and non acceptable. I haven't watched porn for quite some time, but the last time I saw fat porn, the lady was dressed in filthy clothes was not made up to look attractive at all, and there was a cameo by a midget. That's not my idea of a cheerleader for acceptance.


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## superodalisque (Sep 15, 2009)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Porn, or anything really, become a problem when there are lies associated with it. When one partner chooses to lie about their behavior (for whatever reason) to the other partner, it totally changes the nature of their relationship. When the object that is being lied about is one of a sexual nature I think it can be even more damaging because feelings of inadequacy are bound to set in. Its very hard to bounce back from something like that and it takes a strong dedicated couple to even make the attempt.
> 
> Regarding fat porn bridging the gap between acceptable and non acceptable. I haven't watched porn for quite some time, but the last time I saw fat porn, the lady was dressed in filthy clothes was not made up to look attractive at all, and there was a cameo by a midget. That's not my idea of a cheerleader for acceptance.



that part about lying is really interesting. i can't help but wonder if people who totally tell the truth about thier porn use are really trying to skirt the issue. maybe they bring thier gfs into it and tell them everything because then all of a sudden they can play the good guy? " i was open. i shared with you. i told you everything. there are no secrets between us." its kinda sounds like guys who say its okay to have an affair because he told his SO about it. or, because he has always been open about his predisposition to cheating. i'm not saying that porn use is cheating at all. just that something about that argument might feel a little disingenious and shifty to the person who gets hurt. especially if the person doing the hurting is already aware of the potential impact of thier actions and made sure they waited until feelings betwen the two had matured and it would be hard for a woman to just leave or take a pass. 

i think its a great idea for women who are told such things to take them seriously , act appropriately and protect themselves emotionally if they need to. but we as women are very reluctant to cut ourselves lose from people we have a bond with. maybe thats yet another reason we should take our time about getting involved. it will give us a chance to learn something about someone and make it more dificult for them to keep secrets until a bond is formed and they know you'll be more likely to tolerate certain things. it might not be very healthy for us to make ourselves as vulnerable as we have been or as society pressures us to be without any assurance for our own emotional well being. folks really don't change who they are very much. so its probably a good idea to believe what a man tells you. they really don't seem to lie very much unless we kind of coach them with what we'd like to hear. so maybe we need more time to listen to and digest what they say.


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## StarWitness (Sep 15, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> is it as transgressive to admire a fat confident woman ? i'm not so sure. it might be more transgressive to desire the most negative stereotype of a fat woman that you can find.



Ye... n... _maybe_. Probably should have paid more attention in my Women's Studies courses. 

It comes down a direct rebellion against the negative stereotype versus finding something desirable in that same stereotype. So which is more transgressive, undermining the perception or undermining the reaction to the perception? Even when (now that I think about it more) to a certain extent, both images conform to how our society traditionally views women? Does that completely undermine the transgression? Which leads me to....




Fascinita said:


> What I meant by "erasing boundaries between people" is that porn facilitates (even hinges on) the illusion that what I, the consumer of it, want is instantly available to me in an image which stands in for another person.



Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. I thought you meant that porn somehow brings people together, and I was all . Well, besides the performers. It's pretty obvious how they're brought together.



> Can you say more about this? I'm curious.



Dammit, now I'm trying to remember what I meant about reinforcing the boundaries between the acceptable and the unacceptable. Uh. I think what I meant was that since porn is something that is still considered shameful by our culture (even though it seems like we're swimming in it sometimes), putting fat women in that realm doesn't do anything to make our bodies more acceptable. 

I recognize that there are men out there who genuinely care for and respect fat women as well as being sexually attracted to them and are able to separate fantasy from reality-- gold stars all around-- but there are also men who keep their attraction to fat women secret, because it's socially unacceptable. So in those instances-- and I have no data to prove which scenario is more common, but the cynic in me assumes the latter-- there is still the perception that there is something wrong with women being fat, and that there is something wrong with a man being attracted to fat women. The fact that images of those women are something taboo, something to be hidden so as to not be associated with them in the public sphere, reinforces both of those ideas.

I hope that made sense. I'm a bit out of it tonight.


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## Tina (Sep 15, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> that part about lying is really interesting. i can't help but wonder if people who totally tell the truth about thier porn use are really trying to skirt the issue. maybe they bring thier gfs into it and tell them everything because then all of a sudden they can play the good guy? " i was open. i shared with you. i told you everything. there are no secrets between us." its kinda sounds like guys who say its okay to have an affair because he told his SO about it. or, because he has always been open about his predisposition to cheating. i'm not saying that porn use is cheating at all. just that something about that argument might feel a little disingenious and shifty to the person who gets hurt. especially if the person doing the hurting is already aware of the potential impact of thier actions and made sure they waited until feelings betwen the two had matured and it would be hard for a woman to just leave or take a pass.


Hmmm... In this case, he's damned if he tells the truth and damned if he doesn't.

Personally, I'd always rather have the truth. I appreciate the truth. If one has the truth, then one can make an educated decision. If the guy either lies about his porn use, or lies by omission, and particularly if the woman is open about her not being thrilled with frequent porn use before they ever get together, then that is being dishonest on the man's part. At least if she knew from the start, she could make a decision informed by the truth, and not have to wait until she's years down the road and in love with him before finding out.

I have to say that from my research into the issue, it's pretty rare that the guy is totally honest about it. Often, as frequently happens with any kind of addiction, he will not only lie to his spouse, but to himself as well, and not admit that he has a porn addiction until things get so bad that he's either lost, or is being threatened with losing, his relationship, job, children -- everything. Before then, it's multiple lies to himself and those around him. Sometimes even then he cannot stop with the behavior nor the lying about it.


> i think its a great idea for women who are told such things to take them seriously , act appropriately and protect themselves emotionally if they need to.


Yeah, you know, I learned something very important years ago: if a guy tells you he's an asshole, don't soothe him and tell him he's not. Believe him. After all, he knows himself way better than you know him. Hear what he says, believe it and then turn and run away.


> they really don't seem to lie very much unless we kind of coach them with what we'd like to hear. so maybe we need more time to listen to and digest what they say.


I tend to disagree with the first sentence, as I think lying is not a behavior with a predisposition depending upon gender. Totally agree with the second sentence. It can be too easy to shrug off things we don't want to see about the person and ignore the red flags that may pop up.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 16, 2009)

I don't know about full disclosure and honesty. I mean, I view porn at times and have my own stash of it. It's a private thing. I feel I should be able to choose what I want and not have to share absolutely every single molecule of my brain with my boyfriend if I don't feel comfortable doing so. I would not conceal from him that I do look at it but should I *have* to open the cabinet and let them paw through and analyze my brain and proclaim judgements for his own sense of comfort? See, I have a problem with that. If I don't want to share it or I don't feel comfortable doing so then nobody's going to see, that's my choice and my decision. I feel that any guy I'm seeing should be afforded the same courtesy. We're not children of course but I just feel there are boundaries, you know. Because of my own relationship to porn I consider it HUGE if someone I'm seeing feels comfortable enough to share that part of themself with me even if the particulars of it are not all that appealing to me. I would hope that would be the case and resolve to behave myself and be polite when being shown around. I expect the same behavior in return. This is not to say this is how *everyone* should feel or respond. Your level of comfort may vary and that's perfectly fine but I'm not so certain about pressuring people to hand it over if that's what people are getting at. 

If someone I've been seeing for some time still feels uncomfortable around me then I think we might have issues between us that go far beyond, "If you love me you'll show me your pr0n stash." Some people in my view don't have the mentality to separate the fantasy level of imagery from real flesh and blood interactions. This isn't just something exclusive to the stereotypical one handed porn addict who lives on paysites. There are porn lovers who are perfectly well adjusted and discerning but he/she may perceive that his/her mate may not be and doesn't have a cognitive frame of reference to understand it in its proper perspective without applying it to him/herself in some way. In that sense, yes I would be reluctant to share with my mate because it will open a can of worms needlessly. I just KNOW he's going to compare his body to the bodys of every dude in the video because the conceptual distance afforded by fantasy is not perceptable to him. In this case I think it's fair to just be honest and communicative about why or why not when it comes to sharing. From there you can decide how you want to go but a person who is unwilling to open the door on that part of themselves just yet, it may not necessarily have some sinister illegal meaning behind it though that's always possible too. I just don't subscribe to the idea that I must let any guy in who asks nicely or lose him. If that's the case then get lost buddy. There's got to be a way to enjoy someone's aquaintence and maintain my humanity at the same time.


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## Tina (Sep 16, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Your level of comfort may vary and that's perfectly fine but I'm not so certain about pressuring people to hand it over if that's what people are getting at.



I don't know that that is what anyone is getting at, Lilly. I know I'm not. Then again, for me, the dividing line in my mind is addiction, which carries with it a whole set of behaviors.


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## superodalisque (Sep 16, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know about full disclosure and honesty. I mean, I view porn at times and have my own stash of it. It's a private thing. I feel I should be able to choose what I want and not have to share absolutely every single molecule of my brain with my boyfriend if I don't feel comfortable doing so. I would not conceal from him that I do look at it but should I *have* to open the cabinet and let them paw through and analyze my brain and proclaim judgements for his own sense of comfort? See, I have a problem with that. If I don't want to share it or I don't feel comfortable doing so then nobody's going to see, that's my choice and my decision. I feel that any guy I'm seeing should be afforded the same courtesy. We're not children of course but I just feel there are boundaries, you know. Because of my own relationship to porn I consider it HUGE if someone I'm seeing feels comfortable enough to share that part of themself with me even if the particulars of it are not all that appealing to me. I would hope that would be the case and resolve to behave myself and be polite when being shown around. I expect the same behavior in return. This is not to say this is how *everyone* should feel or respond. Your level of comfort may vary and that's perfectly fine but I'm not so certain about pressuring people to hand it over if that's what people are getting at.
> 
> If someone I've been seeing for some time still feels uncomfortable around me then I think we might have issues between us that go far beyond, "If you love me you'll show me your pr0n stash." Some people in my view don't have the mentality to separate the fantasy level of imagery from real flesh and blood interactions. This isn't just something exclusive to the stereotypical one handed porn addict who lives on paysites. There are porn lovers who are perfectly well adjusted and discerning but he/she may perceive that his/her mate may not be and doesn't have a cognitive frame of reference to understand it in its proper perspective without applying it to him/herself in some way. In that sense, yes I would be reluctant to share with my mate because it will open a can of worms needlessly. I just KNOW he's going to compare his body to the bodys of every dude in the video because the conceptual distance afforded by fantasy is not perceptable to him. In this case I think it's fair to just be honest and communicative about why or why not when it comes to sharing. From there you can decide how you want to go but a person who is unwilling to open the door on that part of themselves just yet, it may not necessarily have some sinister illegal meaning behind it though that's always possible too. I just don't subscribe to the idea that I must let any guy in who asks nicely or lose him. If that's the case then get lost buddy. There's got to be a way to enjoy someone's aquaintence and maintain my humanity at the same time.



yes i agree with you here. the thing about sharing is that the person you are sharing it with shouldn't feel like its being shoved down thier throat. if everybody feels comfortable there is nothing wrong with sharing as much as you can.

i'm not sure but i think that people who are seriously addicted to porn might be pretty likely to just try and shove it down your throat whether its your thing or not. that would be in terms of either having a person watch with them if they aren't intereste or having them be aware of thier usage. or maybe thats just a bbw thing an di have that opinion because thats what i experience on dims. also it hard to gage because it all might be taken as a part of an FA trying to show a bbw that he/she finds thier body type desireable. the bbw/fa position throws a lot of curves out there.

i was wondering: how did the women on here who knew about the porn usage find out about it? did you look through his stuff or was he just openly blatant about it? would it have made a difference if you found out in another way?


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## katherine22 (Sep 17, 2009)

olwen said:


> After all this discussion I'm starting to wonder about masturbation itself. If porn were not so readily available, but your SOs still masturbated just as much, would that be an issue? Is it porn or masturbation while in a relationship that is the problem? Is there a limit for people about how much their SOs should masturbate? I'm not talking about mutual masturbation either. If all your SOs viewed porn just as much, but didn't masturbate would that make a difference?



How much control do we want to have over another person? If my partner wanted to watch porn and is still good to me, I do not give shit what he is doing with porn when I am not around. There are things about us that belong to us. I love amateur porn, as it helps me release tension, and I certainly would not apologize to anyone for that desire. Women need to get over feeling slighted, as it is a reflection of insecurity and makes a woman look unattractive.


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## Fascinita (Sep 17, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Women need to get over feeling slighted, as it is a reflection of insecurity and makes a woman look unattractive.



Yes! Tell those women what's what! And use that old boogeyman: "You won't be attractive enough!" We certainly need to hear that more.  Women do really get too big for our own britches sometimes.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 17, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> How much control do we want to have over another person? If my partner wanted to watch porn and is still good to me, I do not give shit what he is doing with porn when I am not around. There are things about us that belong to us. I love amateur porn, as it helps me release tension, and I certainly would not apologize to anyone for that desire. Women need to get over feeling slighted, as it is a reflection of insecurity and makes a woman look unattractive.



I don't think it's helpful to tell people to just get over it. There are enough people who experience these kinds of feelings to not just dismiss it outright. Like I've mentioned before, enough people have asked me about filming us having sex to cause me to add some substance to the desire itself. The answer is still no mind you but I'm beyond the point of calling someone a nut if this is what they ask for.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 17, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Women need to get over feeling slighted, as it is a reflection of insecurity and makes a woman look unattractive.



I disagree. As a partner in a relationship, each person should be aware of their partner's insecurities and not exacerbate them by participating in behavior that makes them worse; if I know my partner is sensitive about something, the last thing I'm going to tell them is "get over it" because I want to get my yaya's and damn them and their oversensitivity. 

Telling a woman to "get over it" because it makes her look ugly not only doesn't help, but can potentially hurt. A woman who feels insecure doesn't need someone to tell her her behavior makes her look unattractive. :doh::doh: What she needs is understanding and support, something one would hope she'd get from other women, on a protected BBW forum.

Just sayin'.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 17, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> How much control do we want to have over another person? If my partner wanted to watch porn and is still good to me, I do not give shit what he is doing with porn when I am not around. There are things about us that belong to us. I love amateur porn, as it helps me release tension, and I certainly would not apologize to anyone for that desire. Women need to get over feeling slighted, as it is a reflection of insecurity and makes a woman look unattractive.



katherine, I normally agree with much of what you say, but this rubs me the wrong way. What I think is that we far too often deny our true feelings or tell ourselves that we don't "deserve" to have them, or try like hell to arrive at some kind of compromise that usually ends up being one-sided as hell. What I'd advise a woman who is struggling with her partner's porn usage is to first identify WHY she feels so strongly about it, and if it's a deal-breaker for her. I don't think she needs to spend much time second-guessing herself and telling herself that her man deserves his "me" time and if she complains, she's going to look unattractive to him. If the issue truly is something to do with her self-esteem (she worries that he doesn't find her as attractive as the air-brushed eagerly moaning goddesses of pornlandia) then yes, that's something that she needs to work on: WITH HER MAN'S ASSISTANCE. There is nothing wrong with telling your partner that you feel insecure and to seek reassurance. If some kind of resolution can be made that allows him to continue surfing and her to feel OK with it ... great. If not, then she needs to determine if the issue truly is a deal-breaker. Only then ... if she decides to stay in the relationship despite having no resolution of the issue ... is she in any way culpable for problems that eventually arise from her stifling those emotions while he continues to enjoy his one-sided relationship with his porn. 

A lot of women object to porn for various reasons, not always having to do with how they view themselves. My sisters are against it for religious reasons. While I don't share their opinions, I respect them (and their husbands do, too). I have another relative who is having major issues with her husband's porn usage, which extends far beyond recreational use and goes into what appears to be a big problem for him -- he can't be intimate with her, he is extremely secretive about it, and no matter how many times he promises to stop (with aid of therapy or through sheer willpower alone) he never does. Eventually, she'll catch him furtively wanking to a magazine in the bathroom -- after turning her down because he was "too tired" or she'll see the tell-tale signs of a television being watched in their RV outside the home (again, after he claims that his back is too sore or he's just too depressed or ... the list of reasons go on ... and on). To me, the problem is that she hasn't gotten fed up enough. She won't assert herself. She won't make it a "use it and lose me" issue. She just swallows her hurt and anger and sense of bewilderment yet one more time, accepts his vow that it won't happen again (knowing better) and loses just one more bit of herself in the process. 

Over the years, I've adopted an outlook that works well for me. It is: I look after myself first, my child second, my husband third. It may seem incredibly selfish and in a way ... ok, yeah, it is. But I am mentally healthy, happy with my life, and this makes me far more able to give back to my loved ones. I grew up watching my mother lose herself to a man who just didn't care. I vowed that this would never happen to me. It hasn't. Maybe I swung too far to the other side of that -- it is difficult for me to express vulnerability to anyone, including my husband. But ... it works. Part of that equation is this: If my husband was doing something that I didn't like or couldn't accept, we'd sit down and have a "come to Jeebus" talk about it. If that didn't work, and I was unhappy with the lack of results, I would probably leave him and I wouldn't spend a lot of time second-guessing myself. I do love him, very much -- but I don't need him. I think that too many women put up with far too much crap because they tell themselves that they cannot be happy alone or that they need their man for various practical & emotional reasons. I think that when [the general] you learn to trust your own judgment and value yourself at least as much as your loved ones, you can let go of that illusion. 

If the issue in my marriage was porn, and I objected to my husband using it (for WHATEVER reason), I would tell him that it's the porn or me. He'd know that it's not an empty threat. Whether that would mean he'd stop using it... I don't know. But it would cut through a lot of very painful future drama that would probably result in a separation, anyway -- because if I felt that I couldn't trust him, I'd leave him.


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 17, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> She just swallows her hurt and anger and sense of bewilderment yet one more time, accepts his vow that it won't happen again (knowing better) and loses just one more bit of herself in the process.
> 
> I think that too many women put up with far too much crap because they tell themselves that they cannot be happy alone or that they need their man for various practical & emotional reasons. I think that when [the general] you learn to trust your own judgment and value yourself at least as much as your loved ones, you can let go of that illusion.



Nothing to do with porn, I just needed to read this today.


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## Tad (Sep 17, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Over the years, I've adopted an outlook that works well for me. It is: I look after myself first, my child second, my husband third. It may seem incredibly selfish



I think it is only selfish if you know that your husband is putting you before himself, so that you know you are the priority for both of you, and he isn't for either of you. Stereotypically you have guys who put themselves first, and women who put everyone else in front of themselves, but I'm sure it works out in all sorts of permutations in different relationships.

I'm sure that ties back into the porn discussion somehow, but I'm not feeling clever enough to make the link at the moment.


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## ToniTails (Sep 23, 2009)

for some people there is no compromise on this issue--- i think its unfair that women who are against porn tend to be made to feel that there is something wrong with them----

you have a right to your feelings----if you are open and honest about the way it makes you feel, its on the SO to end it if they can't give it up===


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## thejuicyone (Sep 23, 2009)

I had no problem with my ex looking at porn when I wasn't in the mood to do anything. That was until one time he denied me sex because he decided he would rather look at porn. Story gets even better, he MADE ME leave MY bedroom so he could masturbate. I tell you what, he REALLY knew how to make a girl feel special.


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## superodalisque (Sep 23, 2009)

im really torn about this in a way. i agree with Katherine that women have to understand that men might need to have and should have a private fantasty life. it really doesn't necessarily mean that he has any emotional attachment to that women. most times it doesn't. but there are plenty of times when an attraction is a beginning to something--just like when the guy was first attracted to his SO. so its hard to know where to draw the line. and i think we all know plenty of guys who've decided that what they feel for a sexual fantasy should be more than just a fantasy. 

its hard for women as we are always placed in the position where we are supposed to compete with each other. how does a woman even know about a man's private fantasy if its so private? is he truly trying to keep it private? whats really happening subconsciously when he leaves the dvd in the t.v. if a man is truly keeping his fantasies to himself and is protective of his partner's feelings she might find it easier to put it in its proper place. but sometimes women feel its a vieled threat that if you don't act like, behave like, or look like this--someone other than yourself, i might venture out to find someone who will. and this might be especially true of men who try to pressure women into being the kind of BBWs that they want and that they imagine to be confident.

i also feel what the women are talking about here is very valid. i think what they might be saying is that they don't want to feel that there is someone or many someone's in thier relationship thats supposed to involve only two. when a man's porn becomes so important to him that it takes the place of or displaces his real relationship i feel a woman has every right to feel insulted. and she also does even if it doesn't. the problem has been that women have always been told by others whether thier feelings are valid or not. any feeling you have as a woman is valid whether other people agree or not. i think its been a bad precident for women to have to stuff down how they truly feel about a particular issue. if a woman is fine with it thats ok. if she isn''t fine with it thats ok too. we all have different things that drive us and different sensibilities and we have to honor those. 

its a nice political argument to say that women shouldn't feel threatened. but when it comes to how they really feel they shouldn't live in denial because they deserve as much happinesss as anyone and should be honest with themselves about what it takes for them to be happy. in a way the "get over it" strategy sounds like something that a guy would say who just wants to have his way without any consideration for a woman's real feelings. its kind of surprising when other women are saying it. some women are just not going to be able to put it aside. and i'm not sure its fair to ask them to because that is not really who they are. women have been asked to pretend they are something else for too long. 

the other thing that gives me pause is that underlying all of this for me seems to be an assumption. it seems to me that people tend to want fat women to require less of thier men--that we should. because we might be deemed by society and even ourselves to be unattractive we should prepare ourselves to share and take what we can get as left overs in a relationship. i wonder if a thin woman said that she doesn't like her guy looking at porn if she would get such hay? maybe, maybe not. all i can say is that since i have been around the BBW community i have never seen so much pressure for a woman to share a man in one way or another anywhere else. there seems to be an expectation that a woman cannot hold the interest of a man and she has to be prepared to bring someone else real or not into the relationship. i think this happened a lot in the past because of how the community was structured. some of the men in it have benefited from the presumption for a long time. there appeared to be few men available and women tended to do what it took to get one.

FAs are not as in as high of a demand as they once were as other men are now revealing and acting on their preference. as things are opening up and BBWs are truly coming into themselves and realizing that there are lots of men out there who desire them they understand that they do have a choice in how hey get treated and there is nothing wrong with them asking for what they want without trying to have this false sense of confidence that only makes it okay for a few men who would to indulge thier fickle fantasies on them because they fear that might be all that they can get. its getting harder and harder to hold that presumption over a woman's head. a lot would rather even be alone with thier lovely cats if they had to than to fall into what for them would be a distressful rut. so in a way BBWs who have the strength to admit exactly what they want and how they want it and demand that are really progressive especially here. it can be said that they have stepped out of that old past when women who were fat were assumed not to have a choice. they have also stepped away from the idea that they even have to have a man to be whole. so they don't have to accept anything that makes them feel like less than the woman they believe they are. there is something very hopeful in that to me. however i feel about porn i honor a lady who honors herself enough not to stuff her emotions for the sake of having just any old man at her side.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 23, 2009)

thejuicyone said:


> I had no problem with my ex looking at porn when I wasn't in the mood to do anything. That was until one time he denied me sex because he decided he would rather look at porn. Story gets even better, he MADE ME leave MY bedroom so he could masturbate. I tell you what, he REALLY knew how to make a girl feel special.



Certainly explains why he is your EX


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 24, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> im really torn about this in a way. <....snipped....> however i feel about porn i honor a lady who honors herself enough not to stuff her emotions for the sake of having just any old man at her side.



Most relationships are a matter of trust. Even if your SO wasn't in to porn, every time he walks out that door you have to trust that he's not sniffing and chasing skirts. Sometimes he is. I've been on trial before to where every time I talked to a guy my gestures were analyzed and friendships with other males were questioned. Friendships with other women were questioned too. Apparently something about me makes people suspicious of my behavior unsupervised. I've never cheated in a relationship in my life. I don't blame anyone for wanting to be cautious but there comes a point where an attitude of constant suspicion becomes its own self fulfilling prophecy and I've been in both camps. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. How can anyone feel empowered and secure in these relationships? I'm not even sure that's possible. At some point you get to a point where you know that you know that you know that your mate is true blue. I try to be easy going yet trust my instincts more often and most times I've been dead on. Sometimes I've been wrong though, it happens. It's all we have to work with unfortunately. We just have to muck our way along. 

The only actions you can ultimately control though are your own and if you are unhappy then it's your move and yours alone. Yes I'm aware that this lays all the responsibility and fault squarely at your feet yet again as you're being told in a sense to either get over it or grab the cat an get out. The way it's said might leave a sour taste but everybody knows that it is unwise to enter in to or remain in an unhappy situation believing that you can change your partner. Even if you talk it over there is no certainty that a compromise would be satisfactory even if you can manage to coax one out of the situation. You can't change someone else so it leaves only the two most undesirable options if all else fails: stay and cope or end things altogether and move on. It seems rather dismissive but at the end of the day this is all that's truly left if you can't reach a suitable understanding.


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 24, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> it really doesn't necessarily mean that he has any emotional attachment to that women. most times it doesn't. but there are plenty of times when an attraction is a beginning to something--just like when the guy was first attracted to his SO. so its hard to know where to draw the line. and i think we all know plenty of guys who've decided that what they feel for a sexual fantasy should be more than just a fantasy.



I think for me the part about fat porn that seems so dangerous (when it comes to addiction) is how accessible the women are. I know that a porn addiction in a relationship can be damaging whether they are looking at fat or skinny women. But with fat porn its pretty much all online, the girls are out there chatting, friending people on myspace and all that jazz, so they ARE accessible. 

The guy who spends his time and money at sobigsuzy.com has a much better chance of making contact with that girl than he would any of the playboy bunnies.


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## Flutterby68 (Sep 28, 2009)

I have serious issues with porn, a lot of them stemming from the fact that the women in the images are not realistic representations of women. VERY few women actually look like that, very few women actually ACT like that, etc. Add to that the fact that I always felt like my man-at-the-time wanted me to look like the women in the images, and was disappointed that I didn't, made me begin to hate porn.

I still absolutely hate porn. When my current husband and I got together, we had some pretty major issues with regard to porn. I find it interesting that he SAYS he prefers big women (his ex wife is quite large, I'm bigger than she is, and a couple of his ex girlfriends are large too) but the women he stares at on the street and the women he likes to see in porn tend to conform to the American standard of beauty - you know, the skinny stripperella bimbo with big boobs, shaved crotch and big hair. Definitely NOT me.

ALL porn was removed from the home shortly after we got married, and landed in marriage counseling. But I recently found a porn DVD hidden in the closet. Inside the case was about 6 or 8 photographs of a naked skinny girl playing with herself. I promptly threw it in the dumpster (he wasn't home). Later that night, I asked him about it. He STILL insists he has "no idea" who the photographs depict, and that the DVD was "old" and he had it since before we got together. Apparently he thinks I was born yesterday.

If a man masturbates when I'm not home, provided it's not several times a day... meh, whatever. Just don't leave evidence (put the lube away, etc.). I don't want to think about it. But if my man is masturbating when I'm not home AND not interested in sex with me when I'm available (home) and willing, that's a HUGE issue. When masturbation becomes a substitute for a sexual relationship with me, I get very frustrated and incredibly hurt.

But I am SO anti-porn I'd almost go so far as to say that if it happens again, I'll divorce him. Porn is COMPLETELY unacceptable to me in ANY situation under ANY circumstances. I don't CARE if men are more visually stimulated. He has me and I'm always willing.


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## thatgirl08 (Sep 29, 2009)

I feel so fucking bad for your husband.


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## Fascinita (Sep 29, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I feel so fucking bad for your husband.



Was that really necessary? This thread opened with a call to please let people express how they feel, without finger-wagging from those who feel differently. People get enough chiding elsewhere. Regardless of how you feel, why not leave her be?


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## Flutterby68 (Sep 29, 2009)

Gee, thanks. I posted how I feel about porn (as the OP asked) and then get blasted for how I feel? As if society doesn't already tell me enough that men "need" porn and I should be okay with it. Well, I'm NOT and I never will be.

My husband AGREED to no porn years ago when we first got together. He is the one going back on his word. Not me.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 29, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I feel so fucking bad for your husband.



Huh? Where did this come from? 

She hates porn. She hates it so much that it's a non-negotiable issue to her. Even if she could/would change her mind about porn useage in itself, she can't change how she feels about it. She has a right to set her own parameters, just as her husband has a right to object to them and/or leave her if he cannot live with them. She's clarified further that her husband knew how she felt about porn before he married her. To that end, I can't feel much sympathy for him -- he knew what he was getting into.


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## Tooz (Sep 29, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I feel so fucking bad for your husband.





Fascinita said:


> Was that really necessary? This thread opened with a call to please let people express how they feel, without finger-wagging from those who feel differently. People get enough chiding elsewhere. Regardless of how you feel, why not leave her be?





TraciJo67 said:


> Huh? Where did this come from?
> 
> She hates porn. She hates it so much that it's a non-negotiable issue to her. Even if she could/would change her mind about porn useage in itself, she can't change how she feels about it. She has a right to set her own parameters, just as her husband has a right to object to them and/or leave her if he cannot live with them. She's clarified further that her husband knew how she felt about porn before he married her. To that end, I can't feel much sympathy for him -- he knew what he was getting into.



I'm with you, Traci and Fascinita. If this woman feels this strongly about porn, really, why should you wag your finger? I feel almost the same as she does. Porn can be incredibly hurtful, right down to your very core. She even stated that he knew what she felt about this. He didn't have to marry her, you know? I don't think he needs someone to "feel bad" for him.


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## Tina (Sep 29, 2009)

Moderator: I almost deleted all of the posts on this page of the thread, starting at the top of the page (the rest only because they have directly to do with the top post). I still might, but I also think some good points have been made in response to it. I would like to re-post an excerpt from the rules of this board (you know, the "must-read" sticky at the top of this forum?). Please let's be respectful of each other and each other's perspectives. Snark is really not welcome here.

_*The rules are simple: the Golden Rule rules here. Please treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.*

This board was created to foster solidarity, sharing and learning from each other. An important requirement is the desire to build community and help one another, not tear each other down; therefore, nastiness and flaming will not be tolerated at all. The dream is that this will be such a positive board that actually having to wander over to the un-fun aspects of moderating rarely happens._


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## Sugar (Sep 29, 2009)

Tina said:


> Moderator: I almost deleted all of the posts on this page of the thread, starting at the top of the page. I still might, but I also think some good points have been made in response to it. I would like to re-post an excerpt from the rules of this board (you know, the "must-read" sticky at the top of this forum?). Please let's be respectful of each other and each other's perspectives. Snark is really not welcome here.
> 
> _*The rules are simple: the Golden Rule rules here. Please treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.*
> 
> This board was created to foster solidarity, sharing and learning from each other. An important requirement is the desire to build community and help one another, not tear each other down; therefore, nastiness and flaming will not be tolerated at all. The dream is that this will be such a positive board that actually having to wander over to the un-fun aspects of moderating rarely happens._



Two things...thanks as always for moderating. Secondly...I rather think the fact that 3 different people spoke up about someone being insensitive and way off base shows just how much we (they) care about this space and what it really provides. 

I realize this post may have been a "nip it in the bud" sort of thing but it's also good to have someone other than a mod confirming what is acceptable in an area like this.


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## maxmm (Sep 29, 2009)

I think there is something to be said about porn's ability to sate someone's voracious appetite for sexual pleasure and otherwise uncontrollable libido. Many men (and women) cheat on their partner. Sometimes this is not because they are unhappy with their partner, but they have a tendency to want to procreate with anyone they find attractive.

Everyone is different; some of us want nothing more than monogamy and are repelled at the idea of a cheater, while others have a physiological drive to hook up with other people. This is not negotiable. Just as many of us at dims have uncontrollable urges to eat and eat our favorite foods, some simply want to have sexual pleasure with people they find attractive. Character flaw? Perhaps. Do they have a choice in the matter? Not necessarily.

I know someone who quit looking at porn (due to his own guilt) and he found it much harder to stay faithful to his girlfriend, who he adored and loved and always preferred to any porn. He suddenly had urges to hit on any girl he found attractive. Oddly, porn secured their relationship (by some measures, at least) by satisfying his innate desire to hook up with multiple partners. To this day they are in a healthy relationship and he always prefers her to porn whenever she is available. He has come to accept, even appreciate, his "hobby".

Obviously this is a nuanced issue so the above comments are subject to everything else that has been raised in this thread. For me, the most important issue (beyond intense perversions) is that porn does not become a substitute for a healthy sexual relation with the significant other. Once someone prefers porn to their partner, why bother?

Does any of this resonate with anyone here? Or is this notion disturbing and out of line?


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## Tina (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree, Lucky. I think the women here really care about the space, which is what makes it a bit of an oasis. 

Max, I believe that in the end, you're pretty much saying what's already been said here, so I think you've already had, in a way, some agreement with your last paragraph. As for those who struggle with monogamy, the problem is that too many people who have trouble with monogamy aren't up front about it from the start and end up cheating. It's one thing if you know who you are and you find someone else who maybe is the same way, then you can have an agreement. 

So, your friend stopped looking at porn out of guilt, but is okay with hitting on other women? Something smells rotten in Denmark, frankly.


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## maxmm (Sep 29, 2009)

Tina said:


> ....
> So, your friend stopped looking at porn out of guilt, but is okay with hitting on other women? Something smells rotten in Denmark, frankly.



I was unclear on the final outcome. He was not okay with hitting on women, which is why he went back to porn. At first it seemed to him the lesser of two evils, but now they've come to accept it and it doesn't matter to either of them.


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2009)

maxmm said:


> I know someone who quit looking at porn (due to his own guilt) and he found it much harder to stay faithful to his girlfriend, who he adored and loved and always preferred to any porn. He suddenly had urges to hit on any girl he found attractive. Oddly, porn secured their relationship (by some measures, at least) by satisfying his innate desire to hook up with multiple partners. To this day they are in a healthy relationship and he always prefers her to porn whenever she is available. He has come to accept, even appreciate, his "hobby".



It is amazing that you know, in such detail, the personal sexual lives of your friends. Most people keep back certain deepest feelings, even from the best of friends.

I fear for the health of a relationship if someone _needs_ porn in order to stay faithful. That says, to me, that it is ultimately an unhealthy obsession. It seems like such shaky ground for a relationship to really flourish...." if my porn goes away...there is a better than good chance I will cheat on you ". Lots of people are ' fine ' with a situation, until they are met with a real challenge.


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## Tina (Sep 29, 2009)

Was thinking something similar, M. Porn as pacifier and savior of marriage...! Sure. Makes total sense to me. :blink:


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 29, 2009)

maxmm said:


> I was unclear on the final outcome. He was not okay with hitting on women, which is why he went back to porn. At first it seemed to him the lesser of two evils, but now they've come to accept it and it doesn't matter to either of them.



So basically the woman accepted her husband (boyfriend?) looking at porn because that's the only way he'd be faithful? Boy, that's a relationship every woman wants to be in...


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## thatgirl08 (Sep 29, 2009)

I don't feel bad for her husband because she hates porn.. I feel bad for him because she is treating him like a child.. "I wasn't born yesterday" and looking through his stuff.. are you equals or are you his mother? How much do you trust him? It doesn't seem to very much.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 29, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I don't feel bad for her husband because she hates porn.. I feel bad for him because she is treating him like a child.. "I wasn't born yesterday" and looking through his stuff.. are you equals or are you his mother? How much do you trust him? It doesn't seem to very much.



Yeah, I know. But I think the point of this forum (and this thread, in particular) is to support each other. Your comment was less than... supportive. While I would never dream to throw out anything of my husband's and I think her actions weren't respectful of him, there are better ways to say that without saying you feel sorry for him.

The point of this thread, and this forum, is to support each other. It ain't about the guys.


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## Flutterby68 (Sep 30, 2009)

I wasn't "going through his stuff." I tripped over a bag in our walk in closet. After I tripped over it, I was going to put it back and the contents fell out - all his old comic books (about 30) and the porn DVD. And it went in the dumpster. Why? because he agreed YEARS ago that there would be no porn and I told him that if I ever saw any, it would get thrown out. 

HE promised no porn. 

I kept my word. He didn't. 

(And FYI, he had porn addiction issues in his previous marriage. We had marriage counseling VERY early on to address this because I didn't want us to have those same issues. It was during the marriage counseling that the "no porn" was discussed AND at the same time, he told me to lock him out of computer access - HIS IDEA. Not mine."


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## Tina (Sep 30, 2009)

Anna, I don't think you should have to explain yourself. You owe no explanations for your behavior to someone who doesn't really know what the situation truly is. I think that most women do not understand how bad it can get with porn addictions, and how relationships can suffer, until and unless she has been there. Before that, there's lots of blaming the person who has been lied to and protecting the status quo. Walk on by and pay it no never-mind, but expect that it will happen, because _someone_ will do it any time the subject is brought up. And it's the woman who will get attacked or blamed for being a prude, nosy, and all manner of things, even before the person truly knows the situation.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 30, 2009)

I think it's an interesting and difficult line we walk, as wives. Anna, having your husband tell you to lock him out of computer access to me seems really unfair. Why should you, or any wife for that matter, have to bear the burden of controlling your partner's access? To me that just puts you in "mama" role, a role which usually creates an unhealthy energy in a relationship.

My only thing is throwing something out of my partner's because that's how I was raised -- you don't throw people's stuff out, no matter what they've done. It sounds like you guys had an agreement, though, and he shouldn't be surprised. I'd just hate to be in your shoes, to have to be the "grown up", responsible for controlling what he seemingly can't, or won't, control. That must be really tough. 

God, I hate porn. I really, really do. I hate the way it makes so many women feel, and the difficult and painful positions it puts us in. Our choices are to give up a little bit of ourselves and look the other way, or be a hard ass about it and be called nosy and a prude. Nobody wins, except the guy, who gets to do what he wants; sure, he has to deal with our ire but for so many guys, that doesn't seem to matter as much as their "stash". And with the vast amounts of internet porn, if he's even halfway smart with passwords and such, a woman would have no way of knowing what he's really doing. It's sad, really.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 30, 2009)

Flutterby68 said:


> (And FYI, he had porn addiction issues in his previous marriage. We had marriage counseling VERY early on to address this because I didn't want us to have those same issues. It was during the marriage counseling that the "no porn" was discussed AND at the same time, he told me to lock him out of computer access - HIS IDEA. Not mine."



Oh, Anna. I'm sorry that this is an issue for you and your husband. I hadn't realized, in reading your initial post, that this was a problem for him in the past. I agree with Vickie that his request to have you police his computer access was unfair, and I'm surprised that your marriage counselor agreed to such a suggestion. Such a request suggests that he doesn't trust himself (among other, equally troubling issues) and that being the case, huge red flag that you probably can't trust him either. Please don't take this as any kind of criticism -- nor is it advise. I don't know you, your husband, or the dynamics of your marriage. I just know addiction, and I know addicts. And I can readily empathize with your pain. 

The only bit of advise that I can comfortably offer is to take care of yourself. Stop worrying about what he's doing, not doing, might be thinking about doing. Instead, focus on what you want and need, and how you can go about obtaining that for yourself. I am not suggesting that you leave your husband. Just that you drop the burden of policing his actions. He will stop, or he won't. And if he's not ready to stop, he'll find some way to twist your concern and your pain into manipulation and unfounded hysteria. In the meantime, he'll continue to do what he wants to do ... he'll just be more secretive about it. Taking the focus off him isn't the same thing as giving him a free pass - it's just acknowledging the reality that you can't really control him at all. You can only control yourself, and how you choose to react to the situation. In the meantime, he'll have to find a way to deal with the consequences of his actions without asking you to step into the mommy role. If this were my reality, and given the fact that we have a child (so it's not an easy thing to just walk away) I would immediately stop policing his internet activities, stop worrying about where he is and what he's doing at any given time (easier said than done - I may not be able to control my feelings, but I can choose how to act on them), stop fighting with him over it, and clearly let him know this: There is a time limit to my patience. And I'm going to be focusing on keeping myself and our child healthy and happy. There are consequences to his actions, and I'm not going to clean up any of his messes. Nor will I allow myself to engage in a sexual relationship when I'm hurt, angry, and feel that I can't trust him. I wouldn't tell him that I'm leaving him, but I also wouldn't guarantee that I'd be there if/when he finally hits bottom and asks for help. Because the truth is, if you take the focus off him and put it on yourself, you won't be in a position to make such guarantees to him


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 30, 2009)

Traci, that is the best (non) advice ever. Really, we can't control what they do; we can only control our own actions, and trying to be the policewoman will only make us nuts and waste our precious energy. The way I see it, we're better off using the limited time and energy we have to further our own lives and happiness -- not chasing after their browser history or going through their stuff (and I say this as someone who has done that). We cannot control them, nor would we truly want to, I think -- most of us anyway. If they're going to search out porn, knowing how we feel about it, what can we say? What can we do? It's not up to us. It's not _about_ us. All we can do is set our limits.

I'm not sure, once that trust is breached, that it can ever truly be healed. For most of us there will still be that little doubt in the back of our minds, but I'm not sure that checking up on them would resolve that. 

I guess there are no easy answers.


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## Tina (Sep 30, 2009)

I agree that it's screwy for a therapist to condone such a thing. It's the fast road to codpendent behavior to be the porn police and feels sickening to boot. There are a lot of therapists who don't understand porn addictions, though, so it's most helpful to find one who is trained in it and who understands the dynamics. There are also 12-step programs that can help, both you and your husband, if he's at all interested in going. I also agree with Traci to worry more about yourself and taking care of yourself and drawing your own boundaries. (and then, of course, acting on them). 

I have the URL of a message board with others who are going through many of the same things. If you want it just drop me a line and I'll send it to you.


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## thatgirl08 (Sep 30, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> Yeah, I know. But I think the point of this forum (and this thread, in particular) is to support each other. Your comment was less than... supportive. While I would never dream to throw out anything of my husband's and I think her actions weren't respectful of him, there are better ways to say that without saying you feel sorry for him.
> 
> The point of this thread, and this forum, is to support each other. It ain't about the guys.



You're right. My apologies to FB for being less than sensitive. 

I understand what you're upset because he lied, and that's wrong. I just think you're being too harsh on him, imo.


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## Flutterby68 (Sep 30, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> You're right. My apologies to FB for being less than sensitive.
> 
> I understand what you're upset because he lied, and that's wrong. I just think you're being too harsh on him, imo.



In all honesty, I don't think there is such a thing as "too harsh" with an addict of any kind. He is a porn addict.

If he wants me to police him, I'm willing to do it at least short term. He also knows that I'm willing to only go so far, and if it crosses that line I'm DONE.


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## bdog (Oct 1, 2009)

Flutterby68 said:


> In all honesty, I don't think there is such a thing as "too harsh" with an addict of any kind. He is a porn addict.
> 
> If he wants me to police him, I'm willing to do it at least short term. He also knows that I'm willing to only go so far, and if it crosses that line I'm DONE.



You're very wounded. So is your husband. I really hope you guys can find a way to love one another... work through the pain... find some peace in the middle of it all. I think you both deserve it.


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## Fascinita (Oct 1, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> the way it makes so many women feel, and the difficult and painful positions it puts us in.



The accepted wisdom these days seems to be that this is the result of the failure of women to adapt to the harmless ubiquity of porn.

Arguments pro- abound. Yet I'm not convinced that the ubiquity of porn makes us a less puritanical or more liberated or more sex-positive society.

In fact, I think one of the primary functions of porn as it exists now is to "mechanize" sexuality and to de-sensitize us to our humanity. I say that even as I wouldn't want to live in a world in which it's not OK to portray sexuality in representational modes. I just think the way it seems to work now needs serious tinkering with (re-imagining).

So, the main reason I wanted to open this thread was to allow space for the real, lived experiences of women in relationships with men who exist in and must navigate our porn-saturated world.

I would be curious to hear, as well, from women who have found porn beneficial, if we could get those opinions out here without making that about telling other women how they are not entitled to their own feelings.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 1, 2009)

Flutterby68 said:


> In all honesty, I don't think there is such a thing as "too harsh" with an addict of any kind. He is a porn addict.



I'm an addict.....of a different kind. After years of co-dependency, I ascribe to this school of thought....


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## superodalisque (Jan 13, 2010)

i just saw his article and i thought it migh be helpful here:

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/why-men-like-porn?ecd=wnl_wmh_011110


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## Tina (Jan 14, 2010)

This is fine if the guy isn't addicted to porn and is not masturbating to it as a substitute for sex with his partner on a regular basis. Some do not believe in porn addiction. I think the guy needs to research his stats a bit, though, because from my own research the number of porn addicted men (it is usually, though not always men) who use porn as a substitute for real-life sex is higher than the 5% he references.


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## superodalisque (Jan 14, 2010)

Tina said:


> This is fine if the guy isn't addicted to porn and is not masturbating to it as a substitute for sex with his partner on a regular basis. Some do not believe in porn addiction. I think the guy needs to research his stats a bit, though, because from my own research the number of porn addicted men (it is usually, though not always men) who use porn as a substitute for real-life sex is higher than the 5% he references.



i kind of think so too. i think it may be understated. and even if its not understated i think the high exposure to porn has affected a lot of men's ability to relate to women in a realistic way. you can always tell when a guy spends a lot of time with porn. he doesn't know to talk to women he is interested in appropriately because he hasn't been socialized normally. they are always pretty coarse etc...i have a lot of guy friends who've decided to lay off the porn because overuse has affected thier lives negatively--even if they don't identify as addicted. where they are at just doesn't feel healthy to them.


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## OhLaLaSoSexy (Jan 24, 2010)

I honestly like watching porn with my sex partner. It has bothered me though before but thats when im feeling down about myself yadda yadda....


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