# Attention: BHM/FFA Board Posters (and readers)



## Chimpi (Jul 6, 2008)

Due to recent events on the entire Dimensions Forum, I have brought up a discussion on The Main Dimensions Board about a sort of 'separation' within the Dimensions community. I have seen many of you post that you feel out of place or unwelcome in the rest of the boards, and I'm trying to find out why that is and how it can be handled.
I have become aware that at one point in time, many "BHM's" and "FFA's" requested their own board to talk about their own topics, issues and concerns. Is it possible that over the course of time the placement of this board has acted as a catalyst to your (general 'you') unwelcome feelings? Is it that you only wish to talk about the different aspects of life with fat men [and their admirers] and would like it to continue to be the way it is?
If you do feel unwelcome or out of place in the rest of this community, would you be willing to participate more within the other Boards and threads, acting as firestarters to have a more universally welcome community all-together?

I would really like your input. I am basing all of this on the repeated posts by many of you stating that you feel marginalized, unwelcome, out of place, and confined within your own Board. If I am over-stepping my boundaries, please tell me to leave you alone if that is the case.  Please participate in this discussion if you are willing (here or in the thread I made on The Main Dimensions Board). My goal is to help everyone feel more welcome here, and try to get rid of the "us vs. them" aspect.

P.S. The thread is here: http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43414


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## Chimpi (Jul 6, 2008)

I would like to reiterate that my intent/objective/reason for posting the thread(s) _is *not*_ to have this Board removed. Using an example of specific threads in this Board was a way to have others see my perspective on the matter in hopes that discussion can be utilized to work through the feelings some people have on Dimensions (specifically "BHM's") of unwelcome elsewhere in the Community. How's that for a run-on sentence? 
I have seen many mentions of it in the past few months, spread throughout the entire Community, and I wanted to create a topic that directly calls for explanations on why these feelings are being felt.
Yes it is true that I, _personally_ would like to see some specific topics on other boards, that way more discussion of that particular topic can be discussed (not only by just this group of friends but other groups of friends) by everyone. And yes it is true that the people that usually post outside of this Board can very well post in this Board as well.

My main 'objective' is to have a better sense of Community. I think we can all achieve that, and that many people on this entire Forum want that.


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## PolarKat (Jul 6, 2008)

My hats off on the attempt, and I wish you the best of luck..

Why am I posting here, because it's already starting, the passive agressive comments, even though there's no blame to pass around on this subject it already been created and pointed, the horney guy trying to score ass & rep.. now it just has to turn into a flame war, and then the laurel and hardy routine has to kick in to finish it off.. 

But the reality is that BHM and FFA are a tiny minority here.. These discussion have happened on this board over the last 3 years, and many of those people who were part of those discussions and really helpful members of this community vanished. Partly due to the this subject, and the mindless strings of "look at me" posts detracting from real conversation happening here. BHM/FFA became the one size fits all not because of the any hate from the other boards, just becuase of the dead air and off handed remarks.

If you followed this boards history, there was an attempt to move all the gaining and "look at me" shots over to the weight board, but the people who would post there would get dead air, and if they did get replies it was pretty much a joke from someone trying to score rep.. and on the odd occasion someone would even mention to post it here.. But I will say over the last year it gotten much better there, I've seen male gainers posting and getting replies and not just meeting dead air..

The unwelcomeness (is that a word) isn't because we're BHM, it's because we are strangers.. look at this post from a newb.. do you see anything harmful? 
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41651

and newb went back to lurking shortly thereafter. This was the first time on this board that more than one person went and told the "seer of hate or corrector of opinion" that they're wrong.. This was common here in the past. People who never post on this board pop in just to attack someone.. up to that one it was quiet for a while, but that's because 90% of the posts were "look at me". If you go back in time and read you'll find about 1-2 every month of someone comming over to fix an opinion, when some guy was just venting his anguish and looking for someone just to listen..

For the thin FFA's it hostile territory out there, horny FA's don't hesitate to slander them when descibing how they don't like the bony chicks, what can be expected when thinking with your dick.. it's also the same here, but the fequency is a fraction of what it is out there.. and just becuase you can see a womens ribs doesn't make her anorexic or a crack whore.. but manners are still manners it's something that more often the people on the other boards seem to leave at home..

And then there's the numbers game.. our voices are just drownded out.. all of the regulars here do post on the other boards.. you just don't notice us.. Same token, how many BBW's actually read this board, I've seen BBW's that are married to BHM state on the other boards they never look here.. why is that?

For Size acceptance in general, Williams statement on the complete BHMs history/being in SA is "they don't have it as hard as the women", is completely true.. Has nothing to do with dimensions.. but SA was created as a branch of feminism, and all it's policy were catered to the idea. This is the *first* year I've seen NAAFA have something that was BHM specific, in the past it was always BBW only or General admission.. But that is also just politics and nothing more, from reading SA material the only reason the hand out to BHM is to dispell the "whining middle class white women" label that been pasted on them.. 
And like William was saying the blogs, books, and articles out there are echoing this.. even on BFB there was a whole line of comments on how to bring in BHM, but the qualifier must be that they are from a feminist background.. etc.. etc..

And the Fat experinece is not the same when you're a male or female.. chairs, aiplanes, medical insurance for you americans etc.. that's common ground. Men don't have issues at work, because when we get paid less for being fat or denied a position for being fat we just shrug it off and work harder to find our niche or prove ourselves.. we're raised that way, and know that it's just a part of life, to women this is an obstacle. My belly hits the steering wheel of the car, I modify the car.. etc.. etc.. males don't cry and find a solution without busting framework.. 

Our (most BHM) obstacles outside the common ground of daily life is purely social. As much as people want to lie about how women overlook fat, it's a non-reality. BHMs can have a great career, own a house, build a nest egg, etc.. but they'll never go on a date in their lifetime.. I wish I could remember the study but 5-7% of males will never even go on a date, and the majority of those were fat males, it was 0% for females.
Men till this day have to be the agressors, like many BBWs said a BHM never asked them.. it's a reality many BHM are socially inept, they can lead perfectly normal lives outside of relationships, but in the end it will effect them mentally. The social aspect isn't part of SA, it there to change civic laws etc.. not to make fat men/women sexy, this works in the framework of BBWs and Feminism, but it leave BHM out in the cold where they need help the most.. and this is the double standard.. BBW awards for Pr0n, BBW dances sponsored by SA groups.. 1 fat guy was in the helm of the NAAFA.. some skinny FAs as well.. Mostly BBW's.. when will the skinny FFA make it to the board?

I've summerized all the aspects I could think of.. If I've left anything out.. I think others can add it in..


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## stefanie (Jul 6, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> My hats off on the attempt, and I wish you the best of luck..
> 
> Why am I posting here, because it's already starting, the passive agressive comments, even though there's no blame to pass around on this subject it already been created and pointed, the horney guy trying to score ass & rep.. now it just has to turn into a flame war, and then the laurel and hardy routine has to kick in to finish it off..



I've noticed that pattern too.



> ... and newb went back to lurking shortly thereafter.



No surprise.



> If you go back in time and read you'll find about 1-2 every month of someone comming over to fix an opinion, when some guy was just venting his anguish and looking for someone just to listen..



It's really hard to get a dialogue going between men (and those who want to support them) when some commenters *descend* on a thread to rip it to pieces.



> For the thin FFA's it hostile territory out there, horny FA's don't hesitate to slander them when descibing how they don't like the bony chicks, ...



I don't like that, either. *No one* should be publicly criticized for their body, fat *or* thin. 



> ... but manners are still manners ...



Word.



> Same token, how many BBW's actually read this board, I've seen BBW's that are married to BHM state on the other boards they never look here.. why is that?



Just for tallying purposes, I'm a BBW, married to a BHM, and this is mostly where I hang out. One reason I don't post all that much is that as a married person, I'm not actively seeking a partner, which is an important activity for many here. *And that's OK* - I'm for people finding each other; it's a great thing when it happens. 



> SA was created as a branch of feminism, and all it's policy were catered to the idea. ...
> And like William was saying the blogs, books, and articles out there are echoing this.. even on BFB there was a whole line of comments on how to bring in BHM, but the qualifier must be that they are from a feminist background.. etc.. etc..



I have been thinking a lot about this, and I think what you say is true. My own blog (about fat men) is not primarily concerned with feminism, though, not even as it applies to men. One reason is because I am interested in a lot of fat male imagery (such as in classical art) that was around *long* before feminism, and I am not personally interested in applying feminist analysis to the art I "collect." If others want to do it, fine - not my interest, though.

I agree - it would be nice if there were other lenses through which to look at size acceptance in general, and love for fat men in particular - other than feminism.



> Our (most BHM) obstacles outside the common ground of daily life is purely social. As much as people want to lie about how women overlook fat, it's a non-reality. BHMs can have a great career, own a house, build a nest egg, etc.. but they'll never go on a date in their lifetime..



I have wondered for a long time about the experiences of people who grew up fat (esp. who went through high school fat), and those who didn't. (My husband and I both gained our weight as adults.) If this is true - if people, especially men who grow up fat are really socially hurt/scarred by the experience, then that to me is a critical point for activism. What do you think can be done? What can change? 



> Men till this day have to be the agressors, like many BBWs said a BHM never asked them.. it's a reality many BHM are socially inept, they can lead perfectly normal lives outside of relationships, but in the end it will effect them mentally.



I can see that; it makes good sense.



> The social aspect isn't part of SA, it there to change civic laws etc.. not to make fat men/women sexy, this works in the framework of BBWs and Feminism, but it leave BHM out in the cold where they need help the most.. and this is the double standard..



The idea is "out there" that being thought of as sexy somehow "isn't important," or somehow that it distracts from the "more important" political issues, or that somehow being seen as sexy is simply the expression of a "fetish," and thus "dehumanizing." My understanding is that in feminism you have "sex-positive feminists," vs. those who find sex suspect as a possible source for abuse of women (I remember the old poster from my college days, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Umm... what?)

I don't agree with any of this, myself. Obviously some people are sexier than others, but I like to think that for every person there is *someone* who is going to find him or her sexy - and that facilitating those people finding each other is a good and important thing. I don't see sex as a negative thing intrinsically, although it can be seriously abused by some. Personally (and I'm opening the asbestos umbrella here), I think it is far more productive to focus on the "preference" aspect of liking a fat partner rather than the "fetish" aspect, especially when trying to *integrate* the social / sexual aspects you talk about into "size acceptance" - if that is even possible, of course.


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## PolarKat (Jul 7, 2008)

stefanie said:


> I've noticed that pattern too.
> 
> _... but manners are still manners ... _
> 
> Word.


I see that behavior all to often online, as well as always assuming someone is being negative or trolling rather than giving a positive benefit of the doubt. It's almost as if they're stretching at times to find a reason to flame.
Especially where you can't hear tone, or see facial expressions it's almost impossible to know someones angle. We get much less of that here in our little cave.. 

There's one post that stuck in my memory, the guy made his first post about having trouble getting a date, he mentioned he prefered bbws and then made the mistake of saying "I wonder why they just don't give me a chance"
Main board members jumped in, and in a very condescending, and negative tone to set him straight, and flamed him on how fat women don't have to give him a chance or explination. 
They didn't add anything positive to the discusssion, they had no intention to do so. Completely ignored everything else he wrote.. it seems like they just came over for the pleasure of tearing him a new orafice. They guy came here depressed and venting, and that's what dims main board members offered to the BHM/FFA forum.. "kick the guy when he's down", and then they went on their merry way not to be seen again until the next newb broke a taboo..
That guys post count was 2, one for his initial post, and one appoogizing to the flamers..
I really hope these poeple don't behave like this in the real world...




stefanie said:


> I have been thinking a lot about this, and I think what you say is true. My own blog (about fat men) is not primarily concerned with feminism, though, not even as it applies to men. One reason is because I am interested in a lot of fat male imagery (such as in classical art) that was around *long* before feminism, and I am not personally interested in applying feminist analysis to the art I "collect." If others want to do it, fine - not my interest, though.
> 
> I agree - it would be nice if there were other lenses through which to look at size acceptance in general, and love for fat men in particular - other than feminism.


That what's nice about your blog it just focuses on fat, no politics attached. In essence this is what needs to happen to organized SA, the inner politics need to be tossed out, and it needs to become Size acceptance, not just Fat acceptance, and not geared to any gender. It needs to deal with the needs of those that fall out of the "norm"





stefanie said:


> I have wondered for a long time about the experiences of people who grew up fat (esp. who went through high school fat), and those who didn't. (My husband and I both gained our weight as adults.) If this is true - if people, especially men who grow up fat are really socially hurt/scarred by the experience, then that to me is a critical point for activism. What do you think can be done? What can change?



It goes two ways, and it all depends on character.. those who are shy and inhibited will be scarred, and those who are outgoing will work around it.

You'll hear both sides of the coin where one fat guy would just use intimidation, or physical strenght, they usually end up not having heavy issues. The ones that were quiet and took the abuse tend to be the same ones who are in trouble. 

What can be done.. not much, the majority consensus in SA is that it's your problem "deal with it". Men don't discuss their inner issues on open forums, they mostly only talk to "trusted" females/mates, one of the many reasons men don't really want to join up with SA, it's like they're showing some sort of weakness. Those that do get involved notice an indifference and somewhat underline hostility, and not until recently did SA even seem to have closed venues for them to discuss thier issues.. 
From a society point of view, the scarring occurs during what is normal male development.. boys are "evil", it's part of their growth process, and not much can be done to change it.
There here and now, it a matter of giving them a safe venue to discusss their issues.. "if you build it they will come".. and eventually they start to talk..



stefanie said:


> The idea is "out there" that being thought of as sexy somehow "isn't important," or somehow that it distracts from the "more important" political issues, or that somehow being seen as sexy is simply the expression of a "fetish," and thus "dehumanizing." My understanding is that in feminism you have "sex-positive feminists," vs. those who find sex suspect as a possible source for abuse of women (I remember the old poster from my college days, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Umm... what?)
> 
> I don't agree with any of this, myself. Obviously some people are sexier than others, but I like to think that for every person there is *someone* who is going to find him or her sexy - and that facilitating those people finding each other is a good and important thing. I don't see sex as a negative thing intrinsically, although it can be seriously abused by some. Personally (and I'm opening the asbestos umbrella here), I think it is far more productive to focus on the "preference" aspect of liking a fat partner rather than the "fetish" aspect, especially when trying to *integrate* the social / sexual aspects you talk about into "size acceptance" - if that is even possible, of course.



Sexual attraction, as much as anyone wants to deny it, is a large part of how we deal with others. Study after study keeps showing how attractive people fare better than others, In all aspects of life. 
When I used to do interviews for hiring, I remember the impact on how someone would look would effect my judgement vs. what I read in thier CV. People become more open and attentive to who they find attractive regarless if they're looking or not, and even when you're trying not to do it. When quasimoto is on the other side of the table, it's going to be a bad interview.

SA has figured this out already, just they don't want to admit it, Dimensions magazine, the BBW social dances are there to build self confidence, you're not ashamed of being fat because you can't type on a computer, the negativity and shame/lack of self confidence stems from a purely sexual point of view, as in how other see me.. If we weren't sexual creatures then size wouldn't be an issue..


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## KingMordred (Jul 7, 2008)

I just post where I want to and see if something gets a response. This site rocks.


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## Durin (Jul 7, 2008)

The Main Board in my opinion has always been hostile to male voices. Regardless of wheather FA or BHM. 

I hope that we could all respect each other wherever we are on the Size or Desire spectrum.


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## William (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi Missaf

I enjoy my activities on the other Boards, but I am too aware that I am not free to express my views as a BHM on the other boards even if BHMs are part of the topic on a thread.

Tons of statements on other boards are made in "behave" of BHMs and rarely by BHMs.

William




missaf said:


> I put my 2 cents in there, but I know it won't be well received.
> 
> Thanks for the try, Chimpi. This is an age old cultural problem here, and it's kinda set in stone that way for a while.


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## Victim (Jul 7, 2008)

I might as well submit my $0.02 on the subject. I think that many allies of fat folk are being cast aside as not welcome by the SA community. Just because someone is not fat themselves and might not even be an FA/FFA doesn't mean we should reject their help and shun their presence. 

How far would black slaves have made to emancipation without the aid of their white allies? Was Abraham Lincoln black? 

Next time you're at a BBW club/event don't tell the thin girl to get lost, she might just be there in support of friends. While you're at it, don't look down on the BHMs that happen to be FAs as well. They appreciate who you are, and they have been there themselves too. If you don't find them attractive, then just focus on what you do find attractive and let them be, you don't need to run them off as well.


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## stefanie (Jul 7, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> There's one post that stuck in my memory, the guy made his first post about having trouble getting a date, he mentioned he prefered bbws and then made the mistake of saying "I wonder why they just don't give me a chance"
> Main board members jumped in ...



I remember that thread. 

All I can say is, there is a lot of bitterness out there. Modern life is hard; people are terribly alienated from each other. They look for something online that seems to be unobtainable in "real life," but then encounter harshness. 



> That what's nice about your blog it just focuses on fat, no politics attached. In essence this is what needs to happen to organized SA, the inner politics need to be tossed out, and it needs to become Size acceptance, not just Fat acceptance, and not geared to any gender. It needs to deal with the needs of those that fall out of the "norm"



Thank you for your kind words.

I hope there *can* be some political restructuring, because those who hate fat people are really on a roll right now. How that will come about, who knows?



> What can be done.. not much, the majority consensus in SA is that it's your problem "deal with it".



IMO that's because a lot of the discussion is framed in the terms of power politics. 



> Men don't discuss their inner issues on open forums, they mostly only talk to "trusted" females/mates, one of the many reasons men don't really want to join up with SA, it's like they're showing some sort of weakness.



*Perhaps* (just a thought here, not trying to carve it in stone or anything) that's because outside of younger men (high school, college age), most men don't judge each other as harshly by physical appearance? If a man is at work, for instance, his regard in the eyes of other men is by what he does & how well he does it, or so it seems to me as a female "outsider." ; ) And as you say, there is the "big guy" thing, where a man who is tall or large/muscular as well as fat simply uses his physical presence to keep other men from giving him a hard time.



> Sexual attraction, as much as anyone wants to deny it, is a large part of how we deal with others. ... *If we weren't sexual creatures then size wouldn't be an issue... *



This is an interesting point; have to think about this some more.


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## ripley (Jul 7, 2008)

I see a lot of mention of the meanness and ...umbrage-taking?...that is rampant on Dims as a whole, and those things used as a reason for not venturing beyond the BHM/FFA board. I don't blame you in the slightest; sometimes the BHM/FFA board feels like an oasis of calm in the midst of a battle zone.

The thing is...you can't choose to not participate and then blame the people who do for marginalizing you. It seems to me that with a few very vocal BHM/FFA, the only time they are seen on the other boards are to say "You don't include us!"

I choose to not participate very much on the BHM/FFA board (though I read a lot more) for a few reasons that are not really germane to this thread, but I know that that is my choice and not any ill-intent by anyone to make me feel marginalized.


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## William (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi Ripley

I do not see how BHMs or FFAs can contend with the circle and surround tactics that I see on some of the other Boards. This approach seems to most often be used against BHMs. If the victem stands his/her ground then the majority is given a free pass for any behavior.

Still I would suggest to BHMs that they post their thoughts on the Main Board.

William





ripley said:


> I see a lot of mention of the meanness and ...umbrage-taking?...that is rampant on Dims as a whole, and those things used as a reason for not venturing beyond the BHM/FFA board. I don't blame you in the slightest; sometimes the BHM/FFA board feels like an oasis of calm in the midst of a battle zone.
> 
> The thing is...you can't choose to not participate and then blame the people who do for marginalizing you. It seems to me that with a few very vocal BHM/FFA, the only time they are seen on the other boards are to say "You don't include us!"
> 
> I choose to not participate very much on the BHM/FFA board (though I read a lot more) for a few reasons that are not really germane to this thread, but I know that that is my choice and not any ill-intent by anyone to make me feel marginalized.


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## ripley (Jul 7, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Ripley
> 
> I do not see how BHMs or FFAs can contend with the circle and surround tactics that I see on some of the other Boards. This approach seems to most often be used against BHMs. If the victem stands his/her ground then the majority is given a free pass for any behavior.
> 
> ...



Everyone else that posts "out there" contends with it. I've contended with it. I don't see BHM being treated any differently than anyone else. 

I understand if that makes anyone choose not to participate. But it's not a BHM issue.


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## Chimpi (Jul 7, 2008)

stefanie said:


> I have wondered for a long time about the experiences of people who grew up fat (esp. who went through high school fat), and those who didn't. (My husband and I both gained our weight as adults.) If this is true - if people, especially men who grow up fat are really socially hurt/scarred by the experience, then that to me is a critical point for activism. What do you think can be done? What can change?



I've been fat my entire life.
I cannot speak much for any other person, but I did not think I had too bad of a time growing up [as a fat person]. Sure, I got a _few_ remarks in Elementary school, and hardly any in Middle School; none in High School. However, I usually carried myself in a very laid back manner, and I was a very laid back person (out in the social world, that is). I had a decent amount of friends no matter what year it was, I was a smart kid and I actually let all the lazy students copy off my work (I really didn't care...), and the friends that I did have were spread out throughout all the different social classes of kids (band kids, punks/goths, the "nerd" kids, blacks, Asians, sports players, etc...). I think that helped out quite a lot.
But overall, I cannot say that being a fat kid growing up scarred me at all. There are parts of my life that I would like to improve at, but I do not think any of those areas are lacking because I have been fat my entire life. I suppose it's possible, and may have had an effect on the entire spectrum, but I cannot say for sure.



PolarKat said:


> There's one post that stuck in my memory, the guy made his first post about having trouble getting a date, he mentioned he prefered bbws and then made the mistake of saying "I wonder why they just don't give me a chance"
> Main board members jumped in, and in a very condescending, and negative tone to set him straight, and flamed him on how fat women don't have to give him a chance or explination.
> They didn't add anything positive to the discusssion, they had no intention to do so. Completely ignored everything else he wrote.. it seems like they just came over for the pleasure of tearing him a new orafice. They guy came here depressed and venting, and that's what dims main board members offered to the BHM/FFA forum.. "kick the guy when he's down", and then they went on their merry way not to be seen again until the next newb broke a taboo..
> That guys post count was 2, one for his initial post, and one appoogizing to the flamers..
> I really hope these poeple don't behave like this in the real world...



That sounds familiar, but I cannot pinpoint which thread, person, or situation you are speaking of. I have seen that a few times, but I can see it through both sides of the lens. I know what it's like to have one way of thinking, come into a new place in the hopes that you can either 'fit in' or learn a better way, only to find you're scrutinized for how you act and think. Yes, it happens here, and I dislike seeing that done to people.
I also know what it's like to have a person come into an area that I'm already well-accustomed to, only to find that the way they think and act are very insulting to me personally, and it can hinder any sort of welcoming arms you may or may not have had in the first place. It's all in the presentation, I think, and how you carry yourself. Granted, people should be a little more patient and try to be open to people for a longer period of time, but other people also need to learn how to be a little more ... human, in some instances.
Some people get upset quicker than others. Some people will not get upset no matter what is presented to them or thrown in their face. Some people will have a desire to learn and grow, and some people won't have such a desire. It's all a matter of case by case.

That being said, if people would like to be more vocal on the other Boards on the Dimensions Forums, they should do so without fear of being ridiculed. Sure there will be times people will cut you down. That happens to most, if not all people. However, you shouldn't be ridiculed just for dedicating all your time in one place on this Forum (or any other place on the internet). You're only going to do what's comfortable for you. You may be the type of person that is comfortable with a very simple strategy. That's fine. You may be the type of person that is comfortable with putting yourself out there in places you've never been before, and that is fine as well.


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## William (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi Ripley

I have seen fights on the other Boards between people, but BHM seem to become surrounded and attacked in a concerted effort by several people. I still think that it is important that BHM get their side of the story out, no matter what other people do. I am sure that some one will make sarcastic posts on other threads tonight in response to this conversation.

Note the sarcastic posts that seem to always follow any BHM talk have already started, that is not a sign of respect or tolerance at Dimensions. I do not expect anything to be done either.

William




ripley said:


> Everyone else that posts "out there" contends with it. I've contended with it. I don't see BHM being treated any differently than anyone else.
> 
> I understand if that makes anyone choose not to participate. But it's not a BHM issue.


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## Carl1h (Jul 7, 2008)

ripley said:


> Everyone else that posts "out there" contends with it. I've contended with it. I don't see BHM being treated any differently than anyone else.
> 
> I understand if that makes anyone choose not to participate. But it's not a BHM issue.



If you don't see people being treated differently then you aren't looking. You might be more correct to say that you don't see anything wrong with how they are treated.

How many would agree if I said that fat men and fat women are treated the same in the world? That if I can contend with life as a fat man just fine that fat women should be able to contend with life as fat women just fine? After all, we're all "out there" we all contend in the same world, don't we?


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## olwen (Jul 7, 2008)

Eh, Chimpi, I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I'm learning and it's making me think...


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## ripley (Jul 7, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> If you don't see people being treated differently then you aren't looking. You might be more correct to say that you don't see anything wrong with how they are treated.
> 
> How many would agree if I said that fat men and fat women are treated the same in the world? That if I can contend with life as a fat man just fine that fat women should be able to contend with life as fat women just fine? After all, we're all "out there" we all contend in the same world, don't we?



I feel some hostility coming from your post, but I'm going to try to answer it as calmly and respectfully as I can.

No, I will *not* say that I don't see anything wrong with how people are sometimes treated here. (And it feels hostile that you'd paint me that way.) What I disagree with is that it is a BHM/FFA issue. I don't see BHM being ganged up on because they are BHM; I see drive-by meanness towards people of every ilk. I'd like someone to show me where BHM are treated badly for being BHM, and not just treated with the same callous disregard as everyone else here.

I've been mean to people on the boards before. I regret it, and apologize for it. I'm just a person, fallible as anyone, and I make mistakes. I'm trying to be better. I'm trying to not say things just because they're funny. 

I think that fat women contend with life just as well as fat men. I am kind of confused as to how that relates...real life is NOT dims.


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## William (Jul 7, 2008)

Hi

I will look more closely because I do remember a BBW who recently complained about multiple attacks and messages (PMs) sent to her.

I just do not see anyway to contend with what is going on right now at Dimensions without lowering myself to their level?

William




ripley said:


> I feel some hostility coming from your post, but I'm going to try to answer it as calmly and respectfully as I can.
> 
> No, I will *not* say that I don't see anything wrong with how people are sometimes treated here. (And it feels hostile that you'd paint me that way.) What I disagree with is that it is a BHM/FFA issue. I don't see BHM being ganged up on because they are BHM; I see drive-by meanness towards people of every ilk. I'd like someone to show me where BHM are treated badly for being BHM, and not just treated with the same callous disregard as everyone else here.
> 
> ...


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## ripley (Jul 7, 2008)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> I will look more closely because I do remember a BBW who recently complained about multiple attacks and messages (PMs) sent to her.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how a BBW being attacked/harassed jibes with BHM feeling misused on the other boards?

The only way to contend with it is to not participate in it, but to keep posting funny/interesting/size-relevant/etc. posts.


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## Chimpi (Jul 7, 2008)

ripley said:


> I feel some hostility coming from your post, but I'm going to try to answer it as calmly and respectfully as I can.
> 
> No, I will *not* say that I don't see anything wrong with how people are sometimes treated here. (And it feels hostile that you'd paint me that way.) What I disagree with is that it is a BHM/FFA issue. I don't see BHM being ganged up on because they are BHM; I see drive-by meanness towards people of every ilk. I'd like someone to show me where BHM are treated badly for being BHM, and not just treated with the same callous disregard as everyone else here.
> 
> ...



Callous behavior and attitude is still callous behavior and attitude no matter whom it comes from or based on what reasoning.
Without generalizing _too_ much, and I'm really unsure if it's true or not, maybe there is a growing trend of how often "BHM's" are mistreated more often than others (here specifically on Dimensions). I think it might be possible that due to the amount of 'hostility' being felt by the "BHM's", a more widespread marginalized trend of feeling is occurring. I hope that's not the case, but it is possible.
It might also be possible that the people that feel such a way are more sensitive to negative remarks than others, and it might just happen to be (coincidence - not a trend) a more common trait found in the "BHM's" here at Dimensions.
Food for though, I suppose.
But yes, assholes will be assholes, usually to everyone (and possibly more harsh to one type of person than others).


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## ripley (Jul 7, 2008)

Chimpi said:


> Callous behavior and attitude is still callous behavior and attitude no matter whom it comes from or based on what reasoning.
> Without generalizing _too_ much, and I'm really unsure if it's true or not, maybe there is a growing trend of how often "BHM's" are mistreated more often than others (here specifically on Dimensions). I think it might be possible that due to the amount of 'hostility' being felt by the "BHM's", a more widespread marginalized trend of feeling is occurring. I hope that's not the case, but it is possible.
> It might also be possible that the people that feel such a way are more sensitive to negative remarks than others, and it might just happen to be (coincidence - not a trend) a more common trait found in the "BHM's" here at Dimensions.
> Food for though, I suppose.
> But yes, assholes will be assholes, usually to everyone (and possibly more harsh to one type of person than others).





I won't defend bad behavior and don't want to try. 

I posted to this thread not to argue, not to make anyone feel bad, but instead to hopefully show that bad behavior isn't solely directed at BHM/FFA. If they feel that the other boards are too harsh and elect to stay here, then aren't they choosing to be marginalized? That's not meant to be mean, rude, or a condemnation. Insert every other caveat you can think of. 

I personally would love to see more BHM/FFA post to the other boards, but if they don't choose to I don't blame them. It's rough out there sometimes.


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## Carl1h (Jul 7, 2008)

ripley said:


> I feel some hostility coming from your post, but I'm going to try to answer it as calmly and respectfully as I can.
> 
> No, I will *not* say that I don't see anything wrong with how people are sometimes treated here. (And it feels hostile that you'd paint me that way.) What I disagree with is that it is a BHM/FFA issue. I don't see BHM being ganged up on because they are BHM; I see drive-by meanness towards people of every ilk. I'd like someone to show me where BHM are treated badly for being BHM, and not just treated with the same callous disregard as everyone else here.
> 
> I've been mean to people on the boards before. I regret it, and apologize for it. I'm just a person, fallible as anyone, and I make mistakes. I'm trying to be better. I'm trying to not say things just because they're funny.



This goes beyond BHMs, different groups here get treated differently. You really haven't seen that? If you can honestly say that you haven't seen that then my challenge to you is to go out and look. Pick a thread where someone gets attacked for something they said and start counting posts. Count how many people say something in their defense and how many people say something against them. Would it surprise you if I predicted that posts supporting the accepted majority position here outnumbered other posts? Do you think there is no difference in being criticized by three people and being criticized by ten?

I'm sorry if my incredulity at your statement sounded hostile to you. It's actually based more in frustration.



ripley said:


> I think that fat women contend with life just as well as fat men. I am kind of confused as to how that relates...real life is NOT dims.



Things posted on Dims are as real as something someone says to you in a grocery store or on the street. Dims is a society of its own, and I think that parallels can be drawn between behavior ihere and behavior elsewhere. My point is more about how my statement made you feel, not as to whether or not you agree with it.


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## ripley (Jul 7, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> This goes beyond BHMs, different groups here get treated differently. You really haven't seen that? If you can honestly say that you haven't seen that then my challenge to you is to go out and look. Pick a thread where someone gets attacked for something they said and start counting posts. Count how many people say something in their defense and how many people say something against them. Would it surprise you if I predicted that posts supporting the accepted majority position here outnumbered other posts? Do you think there is no difference in being criticized by three people and being criticized by ten?



No, I know that dims has factions. I just think they are drawn more along lines of personality than they are on whether someone is a BHM or a BBW or a thin person. 



Carl1h said:


> I'm sorry if my incredulity at your statement sounded hostile to you. It's actually based more in frustration.




It's okay.  I know you're frustrated, and I would like to understand more where you're coming from...that's why I'm here. I think some couldn't care less about the alienation of the BHM/FFA board, and I hate the fact that because I do and put myself out here that I'm going to get all that frustration and bad feeling taken out on me. Basically I am a wimp and I cry when people are mean to me, lol.




Carl1h said:


> Things posted on Dims are as real as something someone says to you in a grocery store or on the street. Dims is a society of its own, and I think that parallels can be drawn between behavior ihere and behavior elsewhere. My point is more about how my statement made you feel, not as to whether or not you agree with it.



I agree. Like I said, I cry more over dimensions related stuff...my "outside" life is a placid pool, comparatively speaking, lol. 

The thing that confuses me is how this relates to the BHM/FFA not wanting to venture out to the other boards, and why this is a result of some sort of BHM/FFA hating cabal?


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## kittymahlberg (Jul 7, 2008)

To add my experience to the pool of data, I haven't looked much at the other boards or wanted to post on them, simply because they don't deal with my interests. I guess I might post something about feeding on another board. It might be fun, if only to see if I get any strange responses.

As to size acceptance in general, I'm a little surprised at what I've read here about guys and the way they feel they're perceived. Growing up, I was always told that it was more socially acceptable for a guy to be overweight, and that big guys had an easier time than big girls. The explanation was that men are more driven by physical attraction, and their feelings of attraction are more easily manipulated by the media, which in turn places greater emphasis on the "ideal" female body. On the other side of the coin, I was told that it was natural for women to be more attracted to a courteous guy who showed interest in her, regardless of his physical appearance. Granted, that's different from being attracted to a big guy because he's big, but at least it allows for that. I don't think it's necessarily true that men are more physical than women--I can't speak for the men!--I'm just giving a general idea of the "common sense" I was raised on.

Add to that the fact that I live in the South, where a huge number of the population is overweight to obese. I see a lot of big couples, or big guys paired with smaller women. I do get the feeling from a lot of the posts I've read that my experience is out of the ordinary, though.


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## Olga_NYC (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm kind of new here but I have to say that in my opinion, men and women are equally superficial as far as looks go. Even for me to like big guys is superficial, because I'm discriminating against skinny guys LOL. 

Most of the women I've met have a "type" of guy that they're attracted to. I found myself trying to set friends up with each other and, contrary to popular belief, it was the WOMEN who were the most picky based on appearance. So I think we tend to overrate gender differences. The human race in general tends to gravitate toward superficial attractiveness, as subjective as it is


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## Ninja Glutton (Jul 8, 2008)

The funny thing is, I'm a BHM and I've faced more trolling and hatred on the BHM/FFA board than the others. Not to bring the value of this place down, though, because the good far outweighs the bad, but I still feel like every post I make is picked apart and there is an innate cliquey-ness around these parts that I don't think I fit into. Ah well. The ones who are vocal and support me are worth fighting through the bullshit and flame-bait.


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## BLUEeyedBanshee (Jul 8, 2008)

ripley said:


> I see a lot of mention of the meanness and ...umbrage-taking?...that is rampant on Dims as a whole, and those things used as a reason for not venturing beyond the BHM/FFA board. *I don't blame you in the slightest; sometimes the BHM/FFA board feels like an oasis of calm in the midst of a battle zone.*
> 
> The thing is...you can't choose to not participate and then blame the people who do for marginalizing you. It seems to me that with a few very vocal BHM/FFA, the only time they are seen on the other boards are to say "You don't include us!"
> 
> I choose to not participate very much on the BHM/FFA board (though I read a lot more) for a few reasons that are not really germane to this thread, but I know that that is my choice and not any ill-intent by anyone to make me feel marginalized.



I think that the bolded and italicized (by me) portion of your post is exactly why when the guys or some of the less vocal gals venture away from this board they feel attacked.

I know at one time that was the way I felt. Until I started reading a lot of the threads and saw that at times the circle and attack technique is used on anyone that some folks see fit to circle and attack.

Yes there has been some trolling etc on here. However, it's to a far far lesser degree. heck even during some of the troll invasions, this part of Dims isn't hit nearly as hard. 

I definitely would love to see the guys venturing into the land of the Lounge and the Mainboard, the Lounge for fun times etc and the Mainboard for just general size issue discussion etc. It might take some reading through some of the threads and see the trends to get used to the fact that some folks like to attack. Unfortunately that's just part of the human condition. A part that I don't much care for most of the time.

At first some of the guys and gals may just be seen as "new blood" and their posts be under more scrutiny, looking for somethign to attack. But eventually I think all will be well. ya know?


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 8, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> If you don't see people being treated differently then you aren't looking. You might be more correct to say that you don't see anything wrong with how they are treated.



Enough of this passive aggressive everyone is out to get me but I dont have to prove it you have to go out and find it mentality. 

I didnt disagree with you or finally lose my patience with your posts in that now infamous thread because you are a BHM. My problems with your posts were your misogyny and male entitlement, pure and simple. The passive aggressive self martyring childishness of changing your user title, twice, just added to it.

I dont care what size some one is. But I do have next to zero patience for misogyny and male entitlement and your posts reeked of it. It pissed me off to no end that a guy would make a thread calling women out for posting pics of what they liked for once.

I honestly like that there is a BHM forum and I respect the right that women should be able to express whatever sizes like just as the men do here. So instead of playing the everyone is out to get us card maybe you should re-examine what and how you posted and maybe you will realize why many re-acted the way they did.

On a side note, Ive seen lots of BHM complain that they feel their pictures are often ignored in the weight room forums. Heres a thought, those forums are predominately filled with horny heterosexual guys looking for pictures of women so its not exactly a shock they are not going to respond to pics of men. 

Its not some kind of anti-BHM bias. Guys just dont like looking at pics other of guys. Especially when they are horny and looking for pics of women. Its really just that simple.


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## thinffafreedom (Jul 8, 2008)

*I signed up with this username just so I can post this, because I think a few members of this community cant be trusted and would blacklist a member(s) in the intrests of those who are in power and to remain in the limelight.*

The Senior BBWs of this community treat the thin FFA like second class citzens. Just because youre a large and in charge woman, does not give you a louder voice than me. Just because there is more of you than me here does not make you the primary party. Just because you think you had a crummy life story does no make you entitled.

Im sick and tired of adding to the conversation just to be over looked, skimmed over just because Im not a BBW, its not even the thin FFA who feel this way. *BUT NO ONE WILL TALK THIS WAY.* BBWs always have to be in the limelight, cant talk about being a FFA or a BHM outside out board because no one contriubutes anything of value nor could they care.

Next, why does everything have to be approved by this Conrad guy? If we all donate to pay for this service, why is the guy who made this site the Chosen One? Why isnt there another person to represent the other Party? How can a self-proclaimed leader of this community who is a outspoken FA, possible be non-bais? *I dont see any thin FFA mods.* (BLUEeyedBanshee, you are the best, but you know what I'm saying)

Double standards, flex of the rules for senior members, ect...

As long as the current administration of this board and the all mods stays the same, nothing will ever change, it will always function to service those who run it and how they think it should be.

So no thank you, I dont feel welcome on your other boards, your dances, or your conventions, it's run by FA/BBWs for FA/BBWs and FFA/BHMs are just a mere afterthought.

_*I dont speak for everyone but I speak for enough, and the ones I dont speak for understand where Im coming from.*_


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## PolarKat (Jul 8, 2008)

Jack Skellington said:


> Enough of this passive aggressive everyone is out to get me but I dont have to prove it you have to go out and find it mentality.
> 
> I didnt disagree with you or finally lose my patience with your posts in that now infamous thread because you are a BHM. My problems with your posts were your misogyny and male entitlement, pure and simple. The passive aggressive self martyring childishness of changing your user title, twice, just added to it.
> 
> ...


I don't know or really care what your issue with Carl is, but you're bringing in your own crap from some other thread that has no releveance to this one or anything that Carl has posted in this thread so far.. 
If you want to stalk and flame carl.. that's your business, and that's why they invented PM's, so the rest of us don't have to hear your whining.. You can also go back to the orignal thread that this belongs in, and post out your frustatrations of him there, *where it belongs* rather than discussing cheeze..
and to end this stupid and childish argument.. here is your answer as posted by Tina in the Hot Girl thread..
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=794098&postcount=153

If you have something postitive to contribute to *this topic *then please go ahead, we're all ears.. if you're just here to troll then go the fuck away..


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 8, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> If you have something postitive to contribute to *this topic *then please go ahead, we're all ears.. if you're just here to troll then go the fuck away..



My post was on topic with the discussion going on in this thread and I will post where I please unless a mod tells me otherwise. 

Not to mention had Carl not made this rude comment towards Ripley insinuating she must approve of this perceived mistreatment if she doesn't see it, I would have stayed out of it.

"You might be more correct to say that you don't see anything wrong with how they are treated."

Men being rude like that to women has always irked me.


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## PolarKat (Jul 8, 2008)

stefanie said:


> *Perhaps* (just a thought here, not trying to carve it in stone or anything) that's because outside of younger men (high school, college age), most men don't judge each other as harshly by physical appearance? If a man is at work, for instance, his regard in the eyes of other men is by what he does & how well he does it, or so it seems to me as a female "outsider." ; ) And as you say, there is the "big guy" thing, where a man who is tall or large/muscular as well as fat simply uses his physical presence to keep other men from giving him a hard time.



You do get the occasional idiot, it's not quite disregarded, but in the workplace it's seen like a "negative skill".. BHM who are fat and work in visible positions will have to prove themselves over the thinner counterparts to overcome it, he's got to show that he can easily compete.
It's especially true at new jobs etc.. In non visible jobs it doesn't really matter that much.. Men in general don't judge each other on looks unless they see the other as competition, or they're just one of those weirdo freaks who think that fat is the end of the world.. 

Hardest part is interviewing for a job and passing through HR, as a fat guy you pray that it's an older lady, or a guy that's going to interview you.
Women are very keen on appearance and place that really high up.
I used to have the hardest time getting those uber smart ultra nerds who've never seen a comb through HR.

Outside of work, depending on the venue/place it's pretty much the same as what a BBW would face, just men in general brush off the comments.. or we use our size to the advantage 





Chimpi said:


> That sounds familiar, but I cannot pinpoint which thread, person, or situation you are speaking of. I have seen that a few times, but I can see it through both sides of the lens. I know what it's like to have one way of thinking, come into a new place in the hopes that you can either 'fit in' or learn a better way, only to find you're scrutinized for how you act and think. Yes, it happens here, and I dislike seeing that done to people.
> I also know what it's like to have a person come into an area that I'm already well-accustomed to, only to find that the way they think and act are very insulting to me personally, and it can hinder any sort of welcoming arms you may or may not have had in the first place. It's all in the presentation, I think, and how you carry yourself. Granted, people should be a little more patient and try to be open to people for a longer period of time, but other people also need to learn how to be a little more ... human, in some instances.
> Some people get upset quicker than others. Some people will not get upset no matter what is presented to them or thrown in their face. Some people will have a desire to learn and grow, and some people won't have such a desire. It's all a matter of case by case.





ripley said:


> I see a lot of mention of the meanness and ...umbrage-taking?...that is rampant on Dims as a whole, and those things... sometimes the BHM/FFA board feels like an oasis of calm in the midst of a battle zone.
> .



This place is an oasis of calm, that itchy trigger finger doesn't seem to happen on the BHM/FFA board, All the regulars who post here don't seem to perceive this evil hostility that some from the main board seem to find to often. Most of the flame wars/Newbie bashing that happened here were started by main board members who poped in for a visit..
If they would have been regular posters in these forms, then no-one would perceive the us/them idea.. but when the only posts to the BHM/FFA forum they have is 90% flame.. You're going to automaticaly trigger tribal warfare, and the us/them mentality.. 

The regulars here don't jump onto the main board only to flame when the equvalent taboo (Taboo as percieved by main board members.. most of us still don't get it..) was done by a bbw or FA, and then not post again 'till the next BBQ, so why do the main board members do that?
It's things like that that have been instigated by a minorty from the main board, unfortunately they are also some of the regulars there, that has been a part of building this perception of the two forum divide.
And if you've been here long enough you start to see that this does occur on a periodic basis..
Can this be attibuted to just a couple bad apples etc.. probably, but the behavior of others contradicted it.. When some of us speak about this on the main board without trying to point fingers etc.. It's starts a battle royale, no calm discussion, we're talking a fully degraded school yard brawl, with people posting non-stop insults, that are uncalled for, then the High-Five's (rep) to those who are really crossing the line of bad taste. If you read that whole horrible thread that carl started and look at the direct insults that were aimed at William when he did nothing to insult anyone directly, and then all the buddies passing the high-5's around.. what taste do you walk away with in you mouth..
Re-read that whole thread and ask yourself after if the mods were doing their job, and if william is owned plenty of oppologies, or maybe you completely agree with all that behavior as normal.. I don't know.. most of us here don't, and this is what drives part of our perceptions..




ripley said:


> The thing is...you can't choose to not participate and then blame the people who do for marginalizing you. It seems to me that with a few very vocal BHM/FFA, the only time they are seen on the other boards are to say "You don't include us!"
> 
> I choose to not participate very much on the BHM/FFA board (though I read a lot more) for a few reasons that are not really germane to this thread, but I know that that is my choice and not any ill-intent by anyone to make me feel marginalized.


Not really, most of the regulars here are on the other boards alot.. but it's 100:1 so we're really just not noticed, most of the time our post are ignored..
there's no evil or malice taken there.. it's expected, most people key in on what poeple they know say, and just skim on the others. this is true on any forum not just here, just those 60 page flame wars stand out more, and at that point you'll notice the username..
Even in my case most people think I'm a bbw until we actually start to talk one on one.. or until they notice the 5'o clock shadow and not just the boobs


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## PolarKat (Jul 8, 2008)

Jack Skellington said:


> My post was on topic with the discussion going on in this thread and I will post where I please unless a mod tells me otherwise.
> 
> Not to mention had Carl not made this rude comment towards Ripley insinuating she must approve of this perceived mistreatment if she doesn't see it, I would have stayed out of it.
> 
> ...



1/2 your post was on topic, the other 1/2 is pure "out to get someone", that is also bad manners, especially after the individual appologized to the person they insulted.

_"I'm sorry if my incredulity at your statement sounded hostile to you. It's actually based more in frustration." -Carl_

I've read enough of your posts to know that you're intelligent and well versed, and very sharp when necessay, this is not a thread to be sharp.
Your anger at carl can be a catalyst to drive this thread into a flame war, which really isn't needed. 
If this turns into another flying insult and rep thread, it'll just add to the tribal mentatlity here, and you'll have gone and proven it further.. Not to mention those of us who discuss/debate rationally will just walk away..


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## William (Jul 8, 2008)

I meant that I do realize that attacks happpen to others, and the lady that I was talking about is one of the nicest persons on Dimensions.

William






ripley said:


> I'm not sure how a BBW being attacked/harassed jibes with BHM feeling misused on the other boards?
> 
> The only way to contend with it is to not participate in it, but to keep posting funny/interesting/size-relevant/etc. posts.


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 8, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> 1/2 your post was on topic, the other 1/2 is pure "out to get someone", that is also bad manners, especially after the individual appologized to the person they insulted.



I'm not out to get anyone. 

It was to show people that this perceived us vs. them mentality has nothing to do with anyone being a BHM. BHM I'm totally cool with and FFAs are great! I do have issues with misogynists on the other hand. 

So if I see a guy crap on women while trying to play the victim while doing it, I'm going to speak up. 

And a little FYI as a side note, a guy telling me to "go the fuck away" is not a determent to me. I'm still going to speak up. 

_No, I not mad at you PK, I'm just teasing. _


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## ripley (Jul 8, 2008)

thinffafreedom said:


> *I signed up with this username just so I can post this, because I think a few members of this community cant be trusted and would blacklist a member(s) in the intrests of those who are in power and to remain in the limelight.*
> 
> The Senior BBWs of this community treat the thin FFA like second class citzens. Just because youre a large and in charge woman, does not give you a louder voice than me. Just because there is more of you than me here does not make you the primary party. Just because you think you had a crummy life story does no make you entitled.
> 
> Im sick and tired of adding to the conversation just to be over looked, skimmed over just because Im not a BBW, its not even the thin FFA who feel this way. *BUT NO ONE WILL TALK THIS WAY.* BBWs always have to be in the limelight, cant talk about being a FFA or a BHM outside out board because no one contriubutes anything of value nor could they care.



I'm a SSBBW. I am "loud" (ie have a lot of posts). It's not at all that I think being a fat woman here makes me entitled...it's that I seem to like to talk a lot, lol, and give my opinion. I have a lot of rep, but this doesn't give my opinion any more weight than a newb with one post under their belt. Yeah, I have made friends here because I've been here so long, but I don't think that is a bad thing. I befriend newbs all the time, if they catch my attention and I like what they say.

If you want to talk about being an FFA outside of the FFA/BHM board, I for one think that is great. I might not have much to add, being a SSBBW vs a think FFA, but go for it. 



PolarKat said:


> Not really, most of the regulars here are on the other boards alot.. but it's 100:1 so we're really just not noticed, most of the time our post are ignored..
> there's no evil or malice taken there.. it's expected, most people key in on what poeple they know say, and just skim on the others. this is true on any forum not just here, just those 60 page flame wars stand out more, and at that point you'll notice the username..
> Even in my case most people think I'm a bbw until we actually start to talk one on one.. or until they notice the 5'o clock shadow and not just the boobs



So if they are on the other boards a lot, does that mean you think there isn't a division here at dims? Or at least that it's one you're comfortable with?

'Cause as much as I love some of the FFAs and BHMs here, and how much I love to see them out and about posting in the other boards, I do not spite them the BHM/FFA cul-de-sac.


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## PolarKat (Jul 9, 2008)

Jack Skellington said:


> I'm not out to get anyone.
> 
> It was to show people that this perceived us vs. them mentality has nothing to do with anyone being a BHM. BHM I'm totally cool with and FFAs are great! I do have issues with misogynists on the other hand.
> 
> ...



I'll say the bulk of the main board has no issues with BHMs etc.. either, but there's this mix up of different issue all bottled together here.. I tried to point some out at the start of the thread... It's not mass delusion, it's felt by most of the BHM's and FFA/BBW that are on this forums, and each of those for various reasons. I want to finally hammer it out without it turning into what it always does.. look at the main board.. that thread has started to reach the point of imaginary blame.. and the comedy and rep tossing is about to start..

I didn't/don't think he was/is playing the victim, even on the other thread.. he's just comming off that way to alot of people in text.I saw where you were comming from when I read it the first time over, but I caught his appology further down in the thread, which does add up even for the other thread. 

Don't worry about it, I'm not mad either, rarely get that way.. the "go the fuck away" it's just barking avoid having this turn into a circus..
not to mention it sounded better than "please leave".. plus this is one of the few forums I'm on where word filtering is off.. need an excuse to use it 



ripley said:


> So if they are on the other boards a lot, does that mean you think there isn't a division here at dims? Or at least that it's one you're comfortable with?
> 
> 'Cause as much as I love some of the FFAs and BHMs here, and how much I love to see them out and about posting in the other boards, I do not spite them the BHM/FFA cul-de-sac.



The division.. not in the way that most of the BBW's and FA's are understanding it right now, based on the last bunch of threads like this, and the responces I'm seeing.. 

I'm not much for division, but sometimes the fence isn't high enough, and at others it just gets in the way. 

On the same token, why don't we get alot of particiapation here from non FFA BBW and Non BHM, not to mention many BHM.. we have some regulars here.. but there's some with thousand post counts that I've never seen post here, or they have but never in a real topic, just in a joke topic..
Do they percieve some sort of barrier as well?


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## ripley (Jul 9, 2008)

I can only speak for myself, but yeah, I do. First off I'm not sure if I'm an FFA. I've fell for guys from about 150 lbs to one over 500...so I don't know what that makes me. I'm not into encouraging guys to gain, and that seems to be prevalent here. I think that thin women are more prized here (and that's okay!) but if I'm gonna post a lot somewhere, I want it to be where I'm the hot one, lol. And last but not least, I'd hate to feel like I was bringing a bunch of controversy here...and sometimes I'm a controversial poster.


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## William (Jul 9, 2008)

Hi Missaf

I love BBWs that want to be on this Board, they share experiences with me that even though not the same are caused by the same bias in Society. BBW on this Board have shown so much empathy and understanding.

It seem it is a few BBWs and their cohorts that operate off of this Board that I do not cherish. I am resolved not to be angry or resentful at them, but I do not approve of them right now 

William




missaf said:


> Thanks for sharing, Ripley
> 
> As the culture of this board has changed, so too has my posting habits and sense of belonging. I post where I feel comfortable, sharing my thread-killing posts, and continue to cherish the friendships I've made.
> 
> I too feel like BBWs are no longer a cherished hot item in this forum, and that's okay, too


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## stefanie (Jul 9, 2008)

thinffafreedom said:


> I’m sick and tired of adding to the conversation just to be over looked, skimmed over just because I’m not a BBW, it’s not even the thin FFA who feel this way. *BUT NO ONE WILL TALK THIS WAY.* BBWs always have to be in the limelight, can’t talk about being a FFA or a BHM outside out board because no one contriubutes anything of value nor could they care.
> 
> Next, why does everything have to be approved by this Conrad guy?



Last question first. Conrad is the owner of the site. Not everyone donates to participate, and my guess would be that even donations don't make up for all the costs, plus the hours of labor involved to keep the site running. Because he owns the real estate, he gets to make the rules, and delegate mod authority to those whom he wishes.

I hope I have never given any of the thin(ner) FFAs here that their opinions / feelings didn't "count" because of their body size. If I did, even inadvertently, I am sorry. 

That said, there are definitely a lot of issues out there surrounding thin(ner) FFAs and fat women who also love fat men. It is probably large and complicated enough a topic to deserve its own thread, and if someone started a thread like that here it might be helpful for working some of these strong feelings out.



ripley said:


> I can only speak for myself, but yeah, I do. I'm not into encouraging guys to gain, and that seems to be prevalent here.



I'm not into encouraging either, nor into gain myself.


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## bexy (Jul 9, 2008)

oi. no more drama, no no no more drama.

personally, I just post where and when I like. I dont feel alienated or out of place, just happy to be a member on the whole. if a post interests me, I read. I might even reply. I might start a post I know will interest certain people. There is no biggie. 

I just dont get the divide.


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## Amandy (Jul 9, 2008)

My gut reaction to all of this drama, and perhaps there's no one else that feels this way, but, really, some perspective, this is an internet forum. One single forum. It may be a lot of different things to a lot of people, but it's a slice of life. Is it just me or does this debate have the 'mountain out of a molehill' kind of vibe?? I post here once in a while because fat guys turn me on. *shrugs* Other people post here for other reasons. Why does Dimensions, of all places, have to be one size fits all?

That being said, if I'm asked to offer my 2cents, I will say that as a thin FFA, I see lots of posts on the other boards that do not consider the thinFFA-BHM experience (as if all male FAs are assumed to be thin, and FFAs are assumed to be BBWs if they're at Dimensions - I mean, why on earth would a thin woman be at Dimensions????). I don't have anger over it, I get the demographic reality, it's just notable from my frame of reference. A male FA or BBW probably wouldn't pick up on these messages like I would. No one is intentionally hating on me or my size (luckily I don't have ribs sticking out, or I might get offended by the thin = crack whore posts - lolz).

Another bit of baggage I bring to this debate (totally anecdotal, but this shit DOES happen)... When I was single and looking, I was overtly discouraged from joining a local (major metro area) BBW/BHM group (event) by the BBW organizer because I was thin (in a series of email comms over my concern that I'd feel out of place). Did that leave me with a bad taste in my mouth over how the FA/SA community values BHM and their broad range of admirers? Sure, but it's not a deal breaker for appreciating the larger community and its goals.

Final non-linear thought, I have a good friend who is an FFA (we met via this forum a few years ago) who is just a bit on the side of curvy - not skinny, but def not fat. She laments her place in SA/FA because she is a fat ally with a gorgeous fat husband, but gets no FA/SA cred for being a "mere" size 12 or 14 or whatever. And yet knows she doesn't belong in the "thin world" either. We had lunch a few weeks ago, and she said this about the fat culture wars, "neither group will have me." It was quite prophetic considering some of the black/white ThinFFA vs BBW dialog I see here.


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## Smite (Jul 9, 2008)

My thoughts: There's other places than Dims, ya know


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 9, 2008)

> On the same token, why don't we get alot of particiapation here from non FFA BBW and Non BHM, not to mention many BHM.. we have some regulars here.. but there's some with thousand post counts that I've never seen post here, or they have but never in a real topic, just in a joke topic..
> Do they percieve some sort of barrier as well?



I hope not. 

Honestly I hope not.


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## Webmaster (Jul 9, 2008)

Smite said:


> My thoughts: There's other places than Dims, ya know



Look at it this way: at least you have a place here where you can complain how bad it is here and openly plug some other site.


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 9, 2008)

Webmaster said:


> Look at it this way: at least you have a place here where you can complain how bad it is here and openly plug some other site.



Seriously, that ruled.


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## PolarKat (Jul 9, 2008)

ripley said:


> I can only speak for myself, but yeah, I do. First off I'm not sure if I'm an FFA. I've fell for guys from about 150 lbs to one over 500...so I don't know what that makes me. I'm not into encouraging guys to gain, and that seems to be prevalent here. I think that thin women are more prized here (and that's okay!) but if I'm gonna post a lot somewhere, I want it to be where I'm the hot one, lol. And last but not least, I'd hate to feel like I was bringing a bunch of controversy here...and sometimes I'm a controversial poster.





missaf said:


> Thanks for sharing, Ripley
> 
> As the culture of this board has changed, so too has my posting habits and sense of belonging. I post where I feel comfortable, sharing my thread-killing posts, and continue to cherish the friendships I've made.
> 
> I too feel like BBWs are no longer a cherished hot item in this forum, and that's okay, too



I;ve see it as well that BBW are loosing ground here, It's not the fault of the thinner FFA's it this horrible turnaround that we have here.. Exactly as Missaf had said with the new people the culture shifted. 
It's a shame, and I wish that more of the BHM/FFA would stick around longer, but it looks like you have an average post count of 30 and then you vanish. 
Those who stay longer, are those who brach out to the other boards, which is part of this discussion.. 
You can't ask some of those main board members to not walk around with loaded guns to play nice.. seems that for some of them it's their raison d'etre..
I don't want to even get into the whole "look at me threads" and how they detract, and also have the potential to alienate other.. we'll end up with a 60 page long thread! Plus I don't think we have enough traffic if they weren't here.. another catch 22..

And I think I'm probably ahead of you on thread killing posts 




bexylicious said:


> oi. no more drama, no no no more drama.
> I just dont get the divide.


Drama.. it's at the main board where everyone is looking for rep and ass, wanna see the divide first hand, just go read the mirror of this thread, I'm even joining the play  people are just nicer here, and don't pack as much heat, or that might just be dims culture.. not sure..




Smite said:


> My thoughts: There's other places than Dims, ya know


You've awakened the chief.. although I would have rather liked to hear his comments on this thread..


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## PolarKat (Jul 9, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I hope not.
> 
> Honestly I hope not.


They must.. 'cuz I made the stupid mistake of posting in the other thread, and it seems like some there had no clue where I'm comming from on this topic, and made instant soup.. I mean assumptions..
Maybe we should start asking them why they don't come to visit, I don't think our lerprosy in contagious is it?


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## Waxwing (Jul 9, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> They must.. 'cuz I made the stupid mistake of posting in the other thread, and it seems like some there had no clue where I'm comming from on this topic, and made instant soup.. I mean assumptions..
> Maybe we should start asking them why they don't come to visit, I don't think our lerprosy in contagious is it?



Eh, it's not too contagious. I haven't lost any body parts yet. I reserve judgment. 

I don't think that people made assumptions about your content, but about the way you phrased it. BUT I'll shut up about that. I do think it's valid to say that a movement which was begun by and fought by women in its infancy might have sort of lost men along the way.

So how do we bridge that gap?


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2008)

PK, this thread and the Separation thread are related topics. Chimpi posted in both places so that everyone concerned would be sure to see it. I get why you would go into the other thread and then say you won't discuss the same exact topic there just because it's not here. But is that kind of comment helpful to the discussion overall or does it just add to feelings of separation? 

....I get wanting to have ownership over a thing but....Like I said before, these walls are partially self-imposed...


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> Eh, it's not too contagious. I haven't lost any body parts yet. I reserve judgment.
> 
> I don't think that people made assumptions about your content, but about the way you phrased it. BUT I'll shut up about that. I do think it's valid to say that a movement which was begun by and fought by women in its infancy might have sort of lost men along the way.
> 
> So how do we bridge that gap?



The only way to begin to bridge that gap is for more fat men to participate. How can the focus begin to shift from women to men if they don't bother to show up to the party regardless of all the other stuff that's going on around them. 

They can write and self publish books - not blogs - about their experiences. They can make videos/films about their experiences. They can write poetry. They can do grand works of art. They can start websites. They can make newsletters. They can pass out leaflets and pamphlets. They can form fraternities. They can start their own dances. They can start their own grassroots associations and discuss topics relevant to them. If it is seen as helpful then pretty soon, more and more will join them and eventually things will even out. But apparently, this seems to be too difficult for men to do themselves. If men don't feel comfortable doing any of those things, then things will stay the same and as far as I'm concerned they should have nothing to complain about. Simple as that.


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> They must.. 'cuz I made the stupid mistake of posting in the other thread, and it seems like some there had no clue where I'm comming from on this topic, and made instant soup.. I mean assumptions..



Your post was poorly worded.



> Maybe we should start asking them why they don't come to visit,



I'm not a BHM or a FFA. But if you really want me to stop by and visit, I will be sure to do so from now on. Otherwise we can just shoot the breeze in the Lounge. 



> I don't think our lerprosy in contagious is it?



Don't know. I wonder if self victimhood is? 

_Yes, I'm just teasing you now. I don't hold a grudge. Well, not for too long anyways_


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## stefanie (Jul 10, 2008)

Amandy said:


> That being said, if I'm asked to offer my 2cents, I will say that as a thin FFA, I see lots of posts on the other boards that do not consider the thinFFA-BHM experience



My personal view is the more love for fat guys, the better. Straight women of all sizes, ditto for gay men. If the point of a forum is fat guy love, then it seems that things would work best if that was the single driving focus. Given that - you are right, within the ranks of those who love fat men / who want a relationship with one, there are going to be significant differences in experience. A lot of that difference is going to come from how society views a thin woman getting together with a larger man, vs. a fat woman doing the same. 



> ... When I was single and looking, I was overtly discouraged from joining a local (major metro area) BBW/BHM group (event) by the BBW organizer because I was thin (in a series of email comms over my concern that I'd feel out of place). ...
> 
> Final non-linear thought, I have a good friend who is an FFA (we met via this forum a few years ago) who is just a bit on the side of curvy - not skinny, but def not fat. She laments her place in SA/FA because she is a fat ally with a gorgeous fat husband, but gets no FA/SA cred for being a "mere" size 12 or 14 or whatever.



Sigh ... I would hope that everyone who was interested in fat men or women would have been welcome. IMO the more barriers people in a group or movement set up, the harder it is for them to achieve what they want.


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## Carl1h (Jul 10, 2008)

olwen said:


> They can start their own dances.



When I read that I laughed and I thought, start my own dance? Out here in New Mexico it would be same thing if I just went to a club and started asking women to dance. There are a lot of fat people who don't know or care anything about fat acceptance, so even though there are a lot of fat people, you have to have a big population base to get activists and for those of us out in the boonies, there is no way to be able to have a separate social network. In the New Mexico plus sized singles social group at yahoo, for example, there has been a whopping 2 messages this year. As far as I can tell I am the only non-FA male enrolled at all, for a group representing 151,000 sq miles. 

This poll:
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33233
Gives an estimate of the active members of this board at (approx) 100 BHMs and 50 FFAs, including some from Europe and Australia. That's a pretty small group, spread out over a pretty wide area, to try to organize a dance for.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree, activity is key. Coming here and talking to other people about fat acceptance is part of what I do. It isn't a fancy as writing a book, but it's how I participate. I don't know why more guys don't care about fat acceptance issues. Moreover, I'm tired of talking about reasons why people stay in this forum or post all their posts here even if it isn't the most appropriate place. I accept what PolarKat has pointed out, they are mostly new people with few posts and they probably don't really know any better. It mostly seems to me that the discussion becomes a wedge and not a bridge and I hope we don't have to have it again anytime soon.


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## PolarKat (Jul 10, 2008)

In case you decide to visit, and to clarify from my first post since no one brought it up..



Donna said:


> More than once in this discussion, you have mentioned the connection to feminism and the roots of SA stemming from feminism. When you speak of the feminist movement, your tone comes across demeaning and somewhat misogynistic. Is that your intent? Is it possible the whole "BHMs don't have it as hard" idea is a SA-specific version of the larger idea that men in general often don't have it as hard.
> 
> I hate to resort to broad generalizations, but in the interest of trying to make a point, I am going to. Men and women are different. Apples and oranges. BHM and BBW are different, with different issues. Cantelope and honeydew.



_Thank you, for asking before making an assumption of my motives, I wish more were like that here..

There is no tone I'm just infering what you are, apples and oranges.. I don't expect women to understand what the males issues are, we have to explain it.
The catch is that the movement was started by women, for just purposes to combat how their self/societal worth was deteriorated, they built all the infrastructure to combat a war that was against them.
Along the way men started to become targets in the same war, we have no infrastructure.. we have trouble even organizing tea parties.. but all the size acceptance "machinery" is all there, we'd like to join.. but it was designed to handle fat in a perspective of womans issues. Most are highly educated women in the ranks, but their backgrounds are from a feminist point of view, so they don't really get the "male experience", they try.. but they failed miserably at it... _

continued.. You can't directly compare the two, and you also don't want to compare the two directly.

Prior to finding Dims I had no clue about SA at all, this is probably true for most fat men out there. I came in with a clean slate. So I started to read as much as I could on the topic, quite a few authors were familiar from general feminism lit. I've read in the past. 
The more I read the more I started to notice what William was saying, in every book/article the only mention of a BHM was "That they have it as hard as the women".. From my perspective.. it's "Duh! This is just common sense", I know women earn less, I know fat women earn less, and I also know fat men earn less but they're not as bad off as women.. but that really isn't my concern as a fat man, or at least it's not really up there on my priority list.. so where are the BHM issues.. I don't see them addressed anywhere. 

All the things in daily life, like chairs, planes, doctors, etc.. we have them in common, fat women face issues in society to a higher degree, and fat men face social issues to a higher degree.

The concept of male worth have been eroded over the last few generations, both in part to women finding a place as equals, and societies emphasis on male appearance. (follow me on this I'm not being negative) Men are still raised with the same as they were historically, and we're genetically wired in the same way. Women are now partially raised with a different set of ideals, and educated throughout life as well to take on the new reality.

Men no longer have worth as a provider, and looks followed by character traits that isn't "generically" there have become the goal. The old saying of "women aren't about looks" died a couple generations ago. Just look at alpha males out there today, they're 1 step short of makeup.
The assets that a fat man (or any other male) could have in the past to compensate for his "looks" have lost value. All men have been hit by this, men outside the norm have been hit worse, fat men worse than others through the current persecution. We didn't build any infrastructure to deal with all this, and I doubt we ever will..

What do looks have to do with anything, in case your wondering.. Women share intimate details with each other, life, problems etc.. Males rarely share with other males, they mostly share these issues with their mates, or close female relatives/friends. If you can't attract a mate as a male, then your going to suffer, there's quite a bit of data on this out there, and it's not pretty. Fat males are known to be socially retarded compared to their thinner counterparts, and as their age increases it get worse, a fat guy who's dated twice by his mid 20's will seem like an idiot to any woman. Women (overall) aren't showing the same trend regardless of weight.
Ask the FFA's here they'll confirm this..

Now just as Fat womens issues are an extension of feminism, fat males issues are an extension of the new reality. SA exists, but as I said it was created to fill the need of women, first as weight related, then to assist socially as a side effort during/post twiggy. 
From everything I've read to date, the legal aspects of SA are what they promote, as it falls in line with the plight of women, and they also have the confidence boost of the BBW social events, but these are passed as not "official" policy. 
Fat Men need the social more than the legal, many women are starting to figure that out, like I said I've found some literature written recently about it. The framework of organized SA today is purly legal, this will help fat men in a way but it won't address their needs.. There's a vocal fringe minority who are against these changes.. this is the underline hostility I mentioned in the my previous post. 
This years NAAFA conference was the first to have BHM specific topics on the agenda, I was quite happy with this,but from some of what I've read so far out there I question the motives behind it some, at least it a step in the right direction.

Lastly, the poison of comparing who has it harder, will always create an us and them, and start infighting.. We don't ask who was raped or beaten worse, we just acknowlegde the victim and deal with the crime.



Jack Skellington said:


> Your post was poorly worded.


That was shoot, duck and GTF out! after the topic that shall not be named,
I'm not sticking my head out for long in any topic that comes close to it out there



Jack Skellington said:


> Don't know. I wonder if self victimhood is?


I just want to get rid of this story for once and for all, so we don't have to deal with that anymore.. and it's eating time out of my Zelda marathon



olwen said:


> ....I get wanting to have ownership over a thing but....Like I said before, these walls are partially self-imposed...


Not ownership, in here people will jump in to keep thing civil, out there.. touch and 10foot pole come to mind..



olwen said:


> But apparently, this seems to be too difficult for men to do themselves. If men don't feel comfortable doing any of those things, then things will stay the same and as far as I'm concerned they should have nothing to complain about. Simple as that.


Did I mention tea party? Seriously, feminism came from the effect of all women being treated unequally, it's easy to organize when it's everyone, and SA came from what was already built. The majority of the male populace don't have an issue yet.. Plus we are here, and some are trying to explain it..
But remeber you've been given the framework of generations of women to break the mold, for us we have to figure it out on our own, and go against what we've been trained to think..



Waxwing said:


> I don't think that people made assumptions about your content, but about the way you phrased it.


In real life would you have reacted the same way? you wouldn't have becuse of visual queues etc.. this is part of what scares people off from this forum, 
they go from here, where benefit of the doubt is common, to there shoot first.. 
You and Jack don't strike me as the type.. well jack is doing it for fun, but has this become part of dims culture, because based on your posts etc.. I really don't see you jumping to a swift conclusion IRL, it seems more like your caught up in it here..



Waxwing said:


> So how do we bridge that gap?


As stupid as this might sound.. it's just listen without going on the defensive, let william and others talk it out slowly, ask what you don't understand, don't assume anthing is an attack or a some sort of blame, and you'll get the whole picture..
William is trying to cover two issues at once both the Dims "barrier" and the SA barrier.. the two have some in common, but they're not the same issue..


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> I just want to get rid of this story for once and for all, so we don't have to deal with that anymore.. and it's eating time out of my Zelda marathon



At least we can agree Zelda is cool.


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## Waxwing (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> In real life would you have reacted the same way? you wouldn't have becuse of visual queues etc.. this is part of what scares people off from this forum,
> they go from here, where benefit of the doubt is common, to there shoot first..
> You and Jack don't strike me as the type.. well jack is doing it for fun, but has this become part of dims culture, because based on your posts etc.. I really don't see you jumping to a swift conclusion IRL, it seems more like your caught up in it here..
> .



Well, yeah, I would have. But I'm also just having fun with it, and would in real life as well. I like arguing, and I like it when those arguments are passionate. It's fun for me, honestly. And it doesn't have any personal grudges or anger attached to it, even if it may sometimes come across otherwise. 

It doesn't sound stupid to just listen to William and let him explain. I think that at some point in this whole debacle there was a fundamental miscommunication which was never explained. Or at least that's how it seems. Neither side is really hearing the other..

I don't know. I'm tired and what you've said deserves more rational thought than I can give it right now. I don't want to blithely post about this, so more later when I'm recharged.


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> You and Jack don't strike me as the type.. well jack is doing it for fun, but has this become part of dims culture, because based on your posts etc.. I really don't see you jumping to a swift conclusion IRL, it seems more like your caught up in it here..



Okay, I am going to be totally serious and blunt here. 

I’ve never been one for the whole male solidarity thing and I will call men out on their crap when I feel they are in error and I will be the first to admit I have very limited patience for misogyny, male entitlement and male self victimhood. 

That aside, you know your post was leading and poorly worded.  We are all human and we all make mistakes. But just once, *once* I’d like to see a guy own up to his mistakes and admit they just messed up instead going the "Oh, poor me." route. Not a back handed one either. A real sincere, I just messed up.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jul 10, 2008)

missaf said:


> For the men who really understand the subculture that has been created here, and to those who empathize with it: Thank you.
> 
> I encourage you to continue to attempt to break down the walls that are what the women on this board create for themselves. They're missing out on some nice guys.
> 
> For those that don't understand: At least leave the BHM board the way it was, a shelter from the bullshit that's spread around the rest of Dimensions.



Hear hear my friend.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> The concept of male worth have been eroded over the last few generations...



Have you read _Stiffed_ by Susan Faludi? Feminist author of _Backlash _Susan Faludi.  The entire book addresses these issues of men's changing roles in society and how men ARE having a tougher time navigating it because they never had the need for a movement the way women did. She ends up unbelievably sympathetic to the modern male plight. Everyone should check it out who hasn't. 

I understand as a woman and a feminist myself, the feelings of sometimes thinking "why don't the men just organize themselves?" But the reality is, women have a long history of fighting for their place in society. Men in developed societies have had their world turned on its ear within one or two generations. There are those who may say "good, it's only fair," I realize that. But people who feel that way aren't really sincerely interested in including men in the community or discussion then are they? If that is how you feel, fine, but don't hijack legitimate attempts by the members of the board who want to understand and include more fat men in the SA experience. I am not telling anyone where to post or not, but if there is a group effort to build bridges across community lines and all you've brought is the lighter fluid and matches, maybe it would be nice for the rest of us if you sat this one out. That is the general you by the way. 

Here's the thing, just because someone is a member of a group that has traditionally held the place of majority power, that does not mean that all members of that group have the same power or experiences. Most people would find it brutal to say that there should be no sympathy or understanding for white people who experience bad things just because whites have been the dominant group in America for centuries and AS A GROUP oppressed minorities of all backgrounds. The person's individuality and circumstances would be what others would take into account, not the color of their skin. And yet, many feel it is OK to take that same stance on the lines of gender. 

I think what is always unfortunate with this topic is that both sides start out in good faith and get tripped up and derailed on the details. I think the women do want to listen, but I think when the men present an argument from the male point of view and it is not what the women were expecting to hear, everyone thinks that the men are being evasive because they are making baseless arguments. Maybe it is just that they don't want to throw their personal pain out in the open. To the men, I just want to say that most women know that in society and especially professional life in order to make a point, be heard, be taken seriously or have your argument listened to, you better have plenty to back it up. It takes more to be taken seriously as a woman, still. It just does. We come to most arguments and debate with that mindset. I don't think you are being asked to be held to a higher standard, it is just one that is foreign to you. That's why everyone wants facts, documentation and personal anecdotes, that's just what we're used to being asked for most of the time to prove a point. That is meant as incredibly friendly advice.  As for these threads(and not just these two current ones, I mean EVERY thread devoted to this topic in some way) maybe we could for once take it on faith that a fat man does have problems and not push so hard for that first piece of evidence. Maybe we should just jump into the actual discussion about how to make them feel more included and what concerns they have that don't get addressed and skip the warm up fight which ends up being the only debate we ever seem to get to. But guys, if we listen, you better bring us something to listen to. Tell us what is not getting addressed in SA for you as fat men. A lot of us really do want to hear what you have to say. BBW and FFA of all sizes. But BE SPECIFIC. Most people lose patience with vague generalities. What are the issues? Is it job discrimination? Socialization? The things edx brought up in the "Keeping up with the Janeses thread?" Tell us what the specific things are. Maybe instead of worrying about how many men are involved, it would make more sense to open discussions about the actual issues that aren't getting addressed. In other words, maybe once the issues are being discussed by a few men, more men will join in. 

This whole thing makes no sense to me. There are plenty of things to debate, discuss and fight over, but ANYONE'S place in size acceptance should not really be one of them. You do all realize that the rest of the world dislikes, distrusts and/or disagrees with ALL of us more than we could ever dislike, distrust and/or disagree with each other, right? For those who are interested in activism, I would think higher numbers would be important to the cause. For those who feel they are not being accurately represented within the cause, get out there and represent yourselves. And I mean that in reference to Dims, NAAFA, and the entire world at large. 

For those of us in the less well represented groups, I want to ask this: Is it more important to ask why we feel marginalized and discuss that we feel that way, or is it better to just jump in and speak up and who the hell cares if some don't agree with you or like you? You ARE a part of this community simply because you are here. Being the minority voice may not always be easy or comfortable(I do know that first hand)but many many people here will listen and many want to. I have received lots of encouragement as a thin FFA out on the main boards. And if someone doesn't like or agree with me, or they choose to ignore me, so be it. Not everyone is going to like you. But as long as you follow the rules of posting, they can't silence you. Yes, we do have to speak up more and prove more as a minority here, but that doesn't mean we aren't welcome. That is just usually what happens to the minority voice in any situation. We just often aren't thought about because we don't get out there much. And our experiences are somewhat different than the majority dynamic. But is it more important to lament that, or to just post away and let the rest of the community learn about us? You might be surprised if you just posted your honest experiences how much support and common ground you might find. Yes, there are some places here I don't post because they either don't pertain to me or my experience as an FFA is too different, but there are plenty of places to post. And if you want to, you should. And if someone gets snarky with you, for God's sake, just IGNORE them. Snark chokes and dies when it doesn't get enough attention. That's a scientific fact. 

Dr. P will now get off her soap box. And none of this was directed at anyone in particular, I have been made so dizzy by these threads I can't remember who posted what anyway.


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## HDANGEL15 (Jul 10, 2008)

missaf said:


> For the men who really understand the subculture that has been created here, and to those who empathize with it: Thank you.
> 
> I encourage you to continue to attempt to break down the walls that are what the women on this board create for themselves. They're missing out on some nice guys.
> 
> For those that don't understand: At least leave the BHM board the way it was, a shelter from the bullshit that's spread around the rest of Dimensions.


*
I say keep it simple....I am a FFA...i love BHM and the likes....i post all over DIMS none the less and u know what...it's not really my concern what others think...I have an opinion and share it.... not looking for drama today, I cum here to get away from that and this world would be pretty boring if there was ONLY vanilla (although i dig it )*


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## William (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Missfa

I think that there will never be enough BHM participating in Fat Acceptance for proper representation. That is why I think that these "friendly" conversations are a benefit. Google will pick up these conversations and the viewpoints will be saved. So will all the crazy stuff 

William



missaf said:


> To address some of PK's earlier posts I missed:
> 
> A large part of having a forum for men is that most men aren't conversationalists. It's a biological fact you guys run out of words at the end of a long day. Ergo, the wordless yet picture-filled posts are a means of communicating, limited though it may be. The acceptance these guys get from the women fawning over their photos is a great ego boost -- but it doesn't help stimulate meaningful deep conversations.
> 
> ...


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## PolarKat (Jul 10, 2008)

Jack Skellington said:


> Okay, I am going to be totally serious and blunt here.
> 
> I’ve never been one for the whole male solidarity thing and I will call men out on their crap when I feel they are in error and I will be the first to admit I have very limited patience for misogyny, male entitlement and male self victimhood.
> 
> That aside, you know your post was leading and poorly worded. We are all human and we all make mistakes. But just once, *once* I’d like to see a guy own up to his mistakes and admit they just messed up instead going the "Oh, poor me." route. Not a back handed one either. A real sincere, I just messed up.


Yes, no question that it was poorly worded, but what I wrote and the conclusion you arrived at it, don't match. At best you could have reached "girls only club", "or not letting the boys in"
It's good the little match happened because now I can explain it clearly..
You kinda showed what william is talking about, at least part of if, he's melding two things together..so let me clear it up a bit. 
I was posting what was relative to the topic, it was poorly worded, but it is a valid argument, it's obvious if you've been following SA. 
It's not something you can actually miss at all. So my from perspective instead of a rebut to my argument, you rebut my motive. This doesn't make any sense to me at all, because the issue I'm bringing forward is clear as day, and the conlusion I've reached is logical..

If we didn't keep talking I'd walk away with what william was saying, the BHM are maligned in the scope of SA, even here on Dims.. etc.. from my perspective you failed to acknowledge the obvious, and made it out like the problem is not even there. 
My fault, I assumed since you entered the discussion you are versed in the happenings of SA. 
Your fault, you made an assumption without background knowledge to the subject.. end result is the situation we're talking about in dims..

second (owning up) part I'm with you completely, but this subject isn't entitlement etc.. it just you've been dealing with some who aren't that good at expressing it, so you're comming to the wrong conclusion, not your fault at all messangers need to be more clear.



missaf said:


> To address some of PK's earlier posts I missed:
> 
> A large part of having a forum for men is that most men aren't conversationalists. It's a biological fact you guys run out of words at the end of a long day. Ergo, the wordless yet picture-filled posts are a means of communicating, limited though it may be. The acceptance these guys get from the women fawning over their photos is a great ego boost -- but it doesn't help stimulate meaningful deep conversations.
> 
> ...



I soo know that the pics and ego boost is something that's well needed. I don't think the others out there realize how low a BHMs self esteem is when they walk into this place. At the same time it seems that they're "getting their fix", and not branching out and discussing some of the stuff they need to unload, or at least I hope they are amonst other out of view.




Waxwing said:


> It doesn't sound stupid to just listen to William and let him explain. I think that at some point in this whole debacle there was a fundamental miscommunication which was never explained. Or at least that's how it seems. Neither side is really hearing the other..


What I wrote to jack above is very relevant, miscommunication here is the biggest hurdle. There are some here that are fixed in a certain view that dont seek compromise, and nice as I can put it.. but they're a minority. I hope that the majority will pick up on these discussions and do a bit of homework and see what we're talking about, and join in on bridging the gap..
My conclusions may be faulty I don't really know, since I've been here I've never been able to debate this topic and have somone from the other side to bounce the ideas off. When the topic comes up, all you get is arguments that completely dismiss a stiuation that's very appearant..


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## Observer (Jul 10, 2008)

> Originally posted by* P. Marshall*
> I understand as a woman and a feminist myself, the feelings of sometimes thinking "why don't the men just organize themselves?" But the reality is, women have a long history of fighting for their place in society. Men in developed societies have had their world turned on its ear within one or two generations.



Has it ever! The farm-based society of a hundred years ago has vanished. So has the apprenticeship system and the expectation of military service. Individual self-sustaining family units, rural and urban, with clearly defined sexual norms have been replaced by a mechanized inter-dependent society that minimizes traditional roles for both sexes and created a need for both to define new unique identities for themselves. 

Actually initially men did organize themselves &#8211; as we moved off the farm there were male-only groups from Boy Scouts to Service Clubs which effectively ran the community when I was a boy. Nearly every male belonged to something and Jackie Gleason even parodied it by a fictitious Raccoon Lodge group in his early fifties situation comedy “The Honeymooners.”

Now, however the Constitution itself has been used to open the doors of these organizations even as the federalization of the tax system has destroyed their efficacy.. They are no longer outlets for hunter-gatherers to collectively practice their traditional roles. Look at what has happened to those groups as a result. They are dominated today by retirees and are proportionately no here near the force they were 50-70 years ago. Indeed, we move so often that residents of a given block are hard pressed to even name more tan 20% of their neighbors. Why? The demands of long commutes and two-earner families mitigate against younger and middle age involvement by either sex in community groups. Few have the desire and fewer still the time.

Women have elected to use their liberation from household drudgery to become educated. This education has enabled them to primarily compete with/displace men in the job marketplace who are also challenged by outsourcing and the need to reinvent their careers every few years. The influx of competing women and foreign labor would have been fine if the men could have this been enabled to with dignity turn their efforts elsewhere. Some indeed have turned to non-income producing social causes and public service that used to be the purview of wealthy social matrons. For most, however. this is only an optionif you’re retired and have a pension. Normally, if a wife is working, she expects it to be a two-earner family 

Many men feel today as emasculated and rendered impotent by the realities of national and global social change as women did when they were treated by some as irrelevant property. With the government devouring so much of everyone’s productivity through taxes two earner families are the norm. So, with money influencing everything, what is a man’s unique role in today’s society?



> Originally posted by* P. Marshall*
> I think the women do want to listen, but I think when the men present an argument from the male point of view and it is not what the women were expecting to hear, everyone thinks that the men are being evasive because they are making baseless arguments. Maybe it is just that they don't want to throw their personal pain out in the open. To the men, I just want to say that most women know that in society and especially professional life in order to make a point, be heard, be taken seriously or have your argument listened to, you better have plenty to back it up.



And that’s of course the point. Men don’t like to share their impotency &#8211; physical or social. Many can’t even articulate it &#8211; and what are women supposed to do to resolve it? Give up what they regard as their new found freedoms and liberation? Given the subordinate position and abuse many of them endured for centuries I doubt most would want to do that &#8211; and until big government gets out of everyone’s lives it can’t even be tried. We as men are supposed to be the problem solvers &#8211; an our esteem problems women can’t solve for us.



> Originally posted by* P. Marshall*
> maybe we could for once take it on faith that a fat man does have problems and not push so hard for that first piece of evidence. Maybe we should just jump into the actual discussion about how to make them feel more included and what concerns they have that don't get addressed and skip the warm up fight which ends up being the only debate we ever seem to get to. But guys, if we listen, you better bring us something to listen to. Tell us what is not getting addressed in SA for you as fat men. A lot of us really do want to hear what you have to say.



P. Marshall I believe that. Women on the whole are great listeners. Actually they’re great in many other ways as well. However, other than just being open and friendly towards the male gender and understanding our quandary I don’t think you can address the frustration of many men better than many supportive women already do. Each man, on his own, has to define for himself a fulfilling and productive role in life because it is no longer automatically defined for him by the land or guild or occupation of his father.

Some of us have understood and mastered this. Many are still finding their way. With direct and indirect taxes taking 40% of everyone’s income its truly difficult and for some overwhelming.


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## Jack Skellington (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> Yes, no question that it was poorly worded,



Fair enough. I respect that. 



> but what I wrote and the conclusion you arrived at it, don't match. At best you could have reached "girls only club", "or not letting the boys in"



This is where I disagree. Your post came off in wording and tone as the usual men scapegoating Feminism for whatever they see their problem is.

Even after Butch explained to you the actual origins of Fat Acceptance, it was started by men and had nothing to do with Feminism, you still had to link Feminism with your percieved problems with the Fat Acceptance movement.

"I should have phrased it better, to something like modeled after feminism,"

You are still trying to link and put the blame on Feminism (and women) for what you see as your problems are with in the Fat Acceptance movement.


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## PolarKat (Jul 10, 2008)

Jack Skellington said:


> Fair enough. I respect that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you actually read anything that I wrote in these threads?
It's a preface...You're focusing on a point that I'm trying to make that majority of people in NAAFA were and still are BBW and FA, they setup the organization, they wrote the literature etc.. nothing was out of any evil plot or malice.. they did what they did to meet their needs. They based the organization on what they percieved needed to be corrected.. I've written this many ways now, many times.. I really don't see how you could have missed this..

Okay.. let me ask you then since you claim there's nothing there at all..
and seem to want to focus on one line..
Why was there only 1 fat guy on the board?
Why has there never been an FFA on the board?
Why until just recently all studies and papers were focused on issues that would relate to BBW? 
Why in the entire history of the NAAFA has there not been an event for BHM, they have been for BBW, SSBBW, FA.. there still hasn't been one for FFA, and there still isn't an expert on staff for FFA either like there are for all the other "groups"?
Since according to you I don't get it, then please quantify this difference I'm all ears no-one seems to want to address it, rather just focus on single lines.. so I leave it to you to explain


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## PolarKat (Jul 10, 2008)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Have you read _Stiffed_ by Susan Faludi?


It's sitting on my bookshelf, next to The Female Eunuch, and Astronomy & Astrophysics and Max Born "Einstien Theory of relativity". It's all part of my evil woman hater plan to understand them.. locate a suitable planet.. and build an interstellar transport device, and then trick them into walking through it..  Sorry can't help it.. It's just my misogynistic entitled self talking.. 

No haven't read it, but just added it to my wishlist to order



Dr. P Marshall said:


> I understand as a woman and a feminist myself, the feelings of sometimes thinking "why don't the men just organize themselves?" But the reality is, women have a long history of fighting for their place in society. Men in developed societies have had their world turned on its ear within one or two generations. There are those who may say "good, it's only fair," I realize that. But people who feel that way aren't really sincerely interested in including men in the community or discussion then are they? If that is how you feel, fine, but don't hijack legitimate attempts by the members of the board who want to understand and include more fat men in the SA experience. I am not telling anyone where to post or not, but if there is a group effort to build bridges across community lines and all you've brought is the lighter fluid and matches, maybe it would be nice for the rest of us if you sat this one out. That is the general you by the way.



I don't even think they want to build a bridge, from what I see they just want to enforce their opinion on everyone and twist the discussion in any way to meet their wants, even if a valid argument and proof is brought up. 
Look at all I posted to this thread, and one of the few mainboard participants on each exchange ignors everything I wrote, and resorts to selective vision, removal from context and plenty of other argument fallacies. Meanwhile the vast majority stays silent. I presented a story and hypothesis, put out my hand and see nothing in return short of some sense of persection and anger complex. You can't have a discussion to mend bridges if you're doing it by yourself.. I'm even resorting to taunting in an attempt to open discussion, but no-one even cares to bite..



Dr. P Marshall said:


> I think what is always unfortunate with this topic is that both sides start out in good faith and get tripped up and derailed on the details. I think the women do want to listen, but I think when the men present an argument from the male point of view and it is not what the women were expecting to hear, everyone thinks that the men are being evasive because they are making baseless arguments. Maybe it is just that they don't want to throw their personal pain out in the open. To the men, I just want to say that most women know that in society and especially professional life in order to make a point, be heard, be taken seriously or have your argument listened to, you better have plenty to back it up. It takes more to be taken seriously as a woman, still. It just does.


 
I'm very familar with this, I've tried to explain the history, it's causality and why the indifference exists, but to have a debate or discussion you need at least 2 people from opposing views who are at least willing to go beyond character assination. 
I'm not even presenting my case as facts, I'm presenting my hypothisis and open to to see how they fail or need to be amended, and I have even gone back and changed stances, and the other side still refuses to acknowledge.

I don't even think we're dealing with a gender issue here at all anymore, I think we're just plain seeing people who were raised poorly and have no sense of manners, trolls, 10 year old kids with fake accounts etc.. I can't see how any rational adult can behave the way I'm seeing here. I think we just associated poor behavior with the dimensions main forum and came to the conclusion that it's an gender issue.. 



Dr. P Marshall said:


> This whole thing makes no sense to me. There are plenty of things to debate, discuss and fight over, but ANYONE'S place in size acceptance should not really be one of them. You do all realize that the rest of the world dislikes, distrusts and/or disagrees with ALL of us more than we could ever dislike, distrust and/or disagree with each other, right? For those who are interested in activism, I would think higher numbers would be important to the cause. For those who feel they are not being accurately represented within the cause, get out there and represent yourselves. And I mean that in reference to Dims, NAAFA, and the entire world at large.



From where I'm at now, I don't think we're deserving of any better treatment, and what us fat people get is deserved.. reap&sow. If we can't sit down and discuss such things amongst ourselves, why should we expect those who are thin and in the norm to take their time out to accept us for who we are, we don't seem willing to do it for ourselves, and we have the agenda.. as I was told on the other thread when expecting a fair shake "To you it's only fair. To me, I don't have the time".. This should be the thin worlds motto against the fat people who said it..



Dr. P Marshall said:


> just IGNORE them. Snark chokes and dies when it doesn't get enough attention. That's a scientific fact.


That would almost be the same as just staying in this forum..

ugh.. I really need to lose some electrons.....


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2008)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Have you read _Stiffed_ by Susan Faludi? Feminist author of _Backlash _Susan Faludi.  The entire book addresses these issues of men's changing roles in society and how men ARE having a tougher time navigating it because they never had the need for a movement the way women did. She ends up unbelievably sympathetic to the modern male plight. Everyone should check it out who hasn't.
> 
> I understand as a woman and a feminist myself, the feelings of sometimes thinking "why don't the men just organize themselves?" But the reality is, women have a long history of fighting for their place in society. Men in developed societies have had their world turned on its ear within one or two generations. There are those who may say "good, it's only fair," I realize that. But people who feel that way aren't really sincerely interested in including men in the community or discussion then are they? If that is how you feel, fine, but don't hijack legitimate attempts by the members of the board who want to understand and include more fat men in the SA experience. I am not telling anyone where to post or not, but if there is a group effort to build bridges across community lines and all you've brought is the lighter fluid and matches, maybe it would be nice for the rest of us if you sat this one out. That is the general you by the way.
> 
> ...



YOU ROCK! I wanna hug you right now for this. Thank you. I'd say more but I'm all choacked up right now....


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jul 10, 2008)

olwen said:


> YOU ROCK! I wanna hug you right now for this. Thank you. I'd say more but I'm all choacked up right now....



I might have to fly to NY. You and I seem to have a lot of hugging to catch up on.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jul 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> It's sitting on my bookshelf, next to The Female Eunuch, and Astronomy & Astrophysics and Max Born "Einstien Theory of relativity". It's all part of my evil woman hater plan to understand them.. locate a suitable planet.. and build an interstellar transport device, and then trick them into walking through it..  Sorry can't help it.. It's just my misogynistic entitled self talking..
> 
> No haven't read it, but just added it to my wishlist to order


Actually, my point was even such an esteemed feminist author came to the same conclusion as you had about the issue of men's place in modern society. I was trying to silence those who feel speaking on behalf of men is automatically misogynistic.



> I don't even think they want to build a bridge, from what I see they just want to enforce their opinion on everyone and twist the discussion in any way to meet their wants, even if a valid argument and proof is brought up.


See my above comment. OK, you caught me, I was trying to politely chastise the trouble makers without making it look like I was doing so. I am just another member of the board and so I can't tell anyone to pipe down, but man, oh man have I wanted to. 



> I'm very familar with this, I've tried to explain the history, it's causality and why the indifference exists, but to have a debate or discussion you need at least 2 people from opposing views who are at least willing to go beyond character assination.
> I'm not even presenting my case as facts, I'm presenting my hypothisis and open to to see how they fail or need to be amended, and I have even gone back and changed stances, and the other side still refuses to acknowledge.



Again, that was not a direct criticism of anyone's approach, more an observation. I do think buried in these threads were a few people who DID want to listen, but got lost (and not just women by the way) by some of the arguments. I guess I just meant that maybe a laundry list of issues would at least get them out on the table and then the discussion could be about "what" instead of "how". I didn't mean men should have to have these discussions in front of women, but I think if for example men said discrimination in the work place is felt by fat people of both genders but for women it may be they are less likely to be hired, whereas for men it may mean they are less likely to be promoted(I don't even know if that's true, it's just an example I could think of) then I think people would see that even common issues might have multiple angles and then decide if they want to open the discussion completely or have different discussions by gender. And I was also referencing the points about NAAFA which I don't know much about personally, but I guess when I stated specific topics I was thinking about taking a group of specific male related topics to the female NAAFA leadership. I wasn't necessarily talking about the arguments here at Dims. I was trying to pack too much into one post, I think. Sorry.



> I don't even think we're dealing with a gender issue here at all anymore, I think we're just plain seeing people who were raised poorly and have no sense of manners, trolls, 10 year old kids with fake accounts etc.. I can't see how any rational adult can behave the way I'm seeing here. I think we just associated poor behavior with the dimensions main forum and came to the conclusion that it's an gender issue..



Actually, in some ways I've never been certain how much gender comes into the actual arguments that break out at all. I think there are real merits to both sides of many of the ongoing arguments of Dims, but I do think the vast majority of the time it all degenerates into emotional buttons being pushed and the debate itself gets lost and things get uglier and more complicated than they ever should. And while sometimes gender is a legitimate factor in viewpoint, etc, often it seems to be more a question of individual personalities meeting up on a topic and all heck breaking loose.



> From where I'm at now, I don't think we're deserving of any better treatment, and what us fat people get is deserved.. reap&sow.



I must admit this last part bothers me the most because of your disheartened tone. I am not one of the fat people here, but I think there are a lot of terrific fat men and fat women here and to my skinny little space alien POV, good people are always worth fighting for, whoever they are. Even if it seems really overwhelming at times. Even if you have to fight within your own ranks sometimes.


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## William (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Dr. P

I think that some progress has been made here, but it takes so much effort 

I hope that there can be some more real discussion around here.


William




Dr. P Marshall said:


> Actually, my point was even such an esteemed feminist author came to the same conclusion as you had about the issue of men's place in modern society. I was trying to silence those who feel speaking on behalf of men is automatically misogynistic.
> 
> Snip


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## olwen (Jul 10, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> When I read that I laughed and I thought, start my own dance? Out here in New Mexico it would be same thing if I just went to a club and started asking women to dance. There are a lot of fat people who don't know or care anything about fat acceptance, so even though there are a lot of fat people, you have to have a big population base to get activists and for those of us out in the boonies, there is no way to be able to have a separate social network. In the New Mexico plus sized singles social group at yahoo, for example, there has been a whopping 2 messages this year. As far as I can tell I am the only non-FA male enrolled at all, for a group representing 151,000 sq miles.
> 
> This poll:
> http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33233
> ...



I do appreciate the difficulty and the obstacles involved here, but I still feel like people have got to try, something, anything to affect change even if it takes the better part of a lifetime to do it. I'm just hopeful that way. I am glad that you do make an effort. I wish more would too. 



PolarKat said:


> ...._
> There is no tone I'm just infering what you are, apples and oranges.. I don't expect women to understand what the males issues are, we have to explain it.
> The catch is that the movement was started by women, for just purposes to combat how their self/societal worth was deteriorated, they built all the infrastructure to combat a war that was against them.
> Along the way men started to become targets in the same war, we have no infrastructure.. we have trouble even organizing tea parties.. but all the size acceptance "machinery" is all there, we'd like to join.. but it was designed to handle fat in a perspective of womans issues. Most are highly educated women in the ranks, but their backgrounds are from a feminist point of view, so they don't really get the "male experience", they try.. but they failed miserably at it... _
> ...



I do want to thank you for actually talking about what issues might actually concern you guys. Now that you've brought it out in the open maybe we can all start to talk about it. Really, and I'm sure others would agree, this is the stuff we want to know about. Stuff we can actually have a dialog about and finally being to get somewhere....


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## butch (Jul 11, 2008)

This may be completely inappropriate, but sometimes I wish I was a fat man after reading what the FFAs write here on the boards. BHMs of Dims, you all are sure lucky! :wubu:


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## Fascinita (Jul 11, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Dr. P
> 
> I think that some progress has been made here, but it takes so much effort
> 
> ...



Hi William,

Progress takes effort?

Gee. Fancy that.


Fascinita



PolarKat said:


> I don't even think we're dealing with a gender issue here at all anymore, I think we're just plain seeing people who were raised poorly and have no sense of manners, trolls, 10 year old kids with fake accounts etc.. I can't see how any rational adult can behave the way I'm seeing here. I think we just associated poor behavior with the dimensions main forum and came to the conclusion that it's an gender issue..



Hi PolarKat,

That's right. Keep telling yourself that. 

It's *not a gender issue!* It's just _*a few crazy, immature women!*_ Who happen to have multiple university degrees, tons of responsibility to deal with "IRL" (as they say in France) and a truckload of accomplishments under their belts!

Also, click your heels three times and....

Fascinita

PS - It warms my heart to see the love-fest going on around here. Unfortunately, I can't participate: That would amount to assenting to the anti-woman rhetoric I still see being floated around. I will not meet anyone halfway on any claim that women are to blame for anyone's problems simply because they are women. No deal.


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## PolarKat (Jul 11, 2008)

I really shouldn't go to the mainboards at all.. it just makes things worse..
Yeah.. don't mind the negativity I'm just venting..



Dr. P Marshall said:


> Actually, my point was even such an esteemed feminist author came to the same conclusion as you had about the issue of men's place in modern society. I was trying to silence those who feel speaking on behalf of men is automatically misogynistic.



Faludi's backlash was a real good read, and more so I'd like to compare her analysis against what I've come up with, I'm seeing things from within my shell, she wouldn't have that limitation as would other males on the subject, I'm really curious to see the reasoning behing the conlusions she draws..

It is a good point, but I don't think most of the target audience would be familiar with Faludi.. probably derived their sense of gender equality, and feminism from such modern greats like Lake, Banks, Rivera, and Springer..



Dr. P Marshall said:


> See my above comment. OK, you caught me, I was trying to politely chastise the trouble makers without making it look like I was doing so. I am just another member of the board and so I can't tell anyone to pipe down, but man, oh man have I wanted to.



Most people have been taught right from wrong, to appologize, and employ such small redeeming social graces. You really can't chastize those who don't have morales or manners. It's like beating an adult dog that urinates on the carpet, it can't relate it's digusting behavior to the punishment it's recieving so it assumes nothing but random agression, and then attemps to bite back.
The whole process if futile.. The case and point is well beyond proven here on human subjects. 



Dr. P Marshall said:


> Again, that was not a direct criticism of anyone's approach, more an observation. I do think buried in these threads were a few people who DID want to listen, but got lost (and not just women by the way) by some of the arguments. I guess I just meant that maybe a laundry list of issues would at least get them out on the table and then the discussion could be about "what" instead of "how".



I really don't see any way to acomplish this.. I have patience but we have well passed the point of fire=burn. Sadly the whole idea in my mind, and I'm sure many others has been re-enforced. Our attempt was simply met with indifference and hostility. Not one stepped up to the plate to discuss it, they're too busy having fun taunting in the other thread. I doubt anyone wants to continue this circus and step up and draw up a list. The end result is that the some of us willing to try to bridge the gap, who wasted their time to meet the criteria have been nothing but slighted. The gap remains larger.



Dr. P Marshall said:


> I didn't mean men should have to have these discussions in front of women, but I think if for example men said discrimination in the work place is felt by fat people of both genders but for women it may be they are less likely to be hired, whereas for men it may mean they are less likely to be promoted(I don't even know if that's true, it's just an example I could think of) then I think people would see that even common issues might have multiple angles and then decide if they want to open the discussion completely or have different discussions by gender.



That kind of discussion will always degrade, unless you keep within a certain parameter and that parameter is what is limiting. It's all fine and dandy but it's like discussing the weather.. I said this before there's only soo much I can talk about my ass not fitting in a chair.. I don't have that issue anymore if my ass don't fit I go see who's in charge and tell them, then sit on the floor. Having many women of all sizes working with and for me in the past, I can glady help them on many work related matters, especially common things that make a difference. But I can't bring up any BHM related issue outside that scope.. Simply put, look at the other thread connect it to your knowledge of the male psyche, and you have your answer. It's one sided, and most one sided marriages end in a certain way. 

Once again, to quote someone on the main board who made a rash asumption of my character from part of a post, that found time to insult, but not enought time to read all what I wrote.. _"I will honestly say that I haven't paid enough attention to you to have an opinion on you, so you're giving yourself way too much importance in my life and on these boards."_

The royals of the mainboard have spoken to the trash.. I'm honoured!!
How can you create common ground with such "esteemed" and important members of dimensions leading the way? 



Dr. P Marshall said:


> And I was also referencing the points about NAAFA which I don't know much about personally, but I guess when I stated specific topics I was thinking about taking a group of specific male related topics to the female NAAFA leadership. I wasn't necessarily talking about the arguments here at Dims. I was trying to pack too much into one post, I think. Sorry.


Not really, the post made sense.. but ask yourself if dims is a reflection of the NAAFA, can you image what they're like.. Honestly if there's someone in the NAAFA upper ranks on dims, I'd absolutely love to hear them chime in on all the points I raised..




Dr. P Marshall said:


> Actually, in some ways I've never been certain how much gender comes into the actual arguments that break out at all. I think there are real merits to both sides of many of the ongoing arguments of Dims, but I do think the vast majority of the time it all degenerates into emotional buttons being pushed and the debate itself gets lost and things get uglier and more complicated than they ever should. And while sometimes gender is a legitimate factor in viewpoint, etc, often it seems to be more a question of individual personalities meeting up on a topic and all heck breaking loose.



Gender issue, I really am starting to think it just a nice mix of people with all sorts of chips on their shoulders, mostly raised behind barns (don't want to insult the livestock). You have the few who go around attacking, their buddies passing the rep around, and the rest is the peanut gallery there to enjoy the show.. 



Dr. P Marshall said:


> I must admit this last part bothers me the most because of your disheartened tone. I am not one of the fat people here, but I think there are a lot of terrific fat men and fat women here and to my skinny little space alien POV, good people are always worth fighting for, whoever they are. Even if it seems really overwhelming at times. Even if you have to fight within your own ranks sometimes.



"Silent good people give evil a break".. 
"bad thing happen when good people stay silent"

I had no intention of getting involved this time, last time I ended up lurking for 8 months after it all. Yes there are good people at dims, unfortunately this time around a few that I thought were good, and had some pleasant conversations with in the past, turned out to be filth. I wasn't expecting it, and It makes me now wonder about the others that I consider "good"




olwen said:


> I do want to thank you for actually talking about what issues might actually concern you guys. Now that you've brought it out in the open maybe we can all start to talk about it. Really, and I'm sure others would agree, this is the stuff we want to know about. Stuff we can actually have a dialog about and finally being to get somewhere...


You're very welcome olwen.. It's good to know that an effort wasn't completely wasted. I hope that what we talked about and the items I covered in the thread gave you a better and clearer picture. I just want to restate that in SA the issue is related to ingorance, and the inablity/insecurities related to change.. it's the same with any other majority having to take in a minority, it's not a question of malice, rather just simple ignorance without the resources/data to figure it out..
Here on dims, I'm really starting to think it's nothing more than the computer version of road rage, and hazing... where in one culture it's the norm, and the other it's not..


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## William (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Guys

I think that if you look at how the " Separation Within Dimensions" thread is going that this is proof that it is hopeless that Dimensions will ever become more than what it is for BHM and FFA. A few bad actors are allowed to do the dirty work and the moderators simply close their eyes as threads are hijacked.

William





PolarKat said:


> I really shouldn't go to the mainboards at all.. it just makes things worse..
> Yeah.. don't mind the negativity I'm just venting..
> 
> 
> ...


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## KHayes666 (Jul 11, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I think that if you look at how the " Separation Within Dimensions" thread is going that this is proof that it is hopeless that Dimensions will ever become more than what it is for BHM and FFA. A few bad actors are allowed to do the dirty work and the moderators simply close their eyes as threads are hijacked.
> 
> William



Where are you getting all this hate from? Seriously....I've read 3 threads with you in it and its ALL been negative.

Try being positive just once and I guarantee others will show you positive attention you desperately want. 

There is hatred all over Dimensions, not just against BHM's. The weight and paysite boards are constantly being attacked by close minded people so if you're saying only BHM's are being picked on, you're wrong.


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## William (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi 

If there was anything positive for BHM on Dimensions out side of the FFA/BHM Forum I would comment on it. I think that GEF and her friends have shown all there is for BHM on the other boards right now.

If you think that my asking questions in a civil manner is hate, then I do not even think it is worth putting any more effort into this reply.

Look at how people reply to posts and that is where you will see where the problems are.

William




KHayes666 said:


> Where are you getting all this hate from? Seriously....I've read 3 threads with you in it and its ALL been negative.
> 
> Try being positive just once and I guarantee others will show you positive attention you desperately want.
> 
> There is hatred all over Dimensions, not just against BHM's. The weight and paysite boards are constantly being attacked by close minded people so if you're saying only BHM's are being picked on, you're wrong.


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## stefanie (Jul 11, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> I really shouldn't go to the mainboards at all.. it just makes things worse..



I'm beginning to agree with you. I do appreciate what you've been writing, BTW, even if I don't always comment. 

*William*, re: modding. Different web sites, and different forums on web sites have different mod rules. For instance, I participate on a fandom board where the mods are ruthless about off-topic posts; they'll remove them and lock the thread in a heartbeat. But that's "a different country," so to speak. What happened on these Main Board threads under discussion is apparently "OK" over here. My personal choice is to not participate in threads where that happens (I'm not saying anyone else "has" to do that; I only have so much energy for online, and scrapping isn't part of that.)

Remarks not directed to anyone in particular: As far as feminism goes, all I can say is that feminism is *not* the only lens through which to view the world. If groups want to make feminism the central "core" of their movement (as seems to be the case with parts of size acceptance), and if individuals want to make feminism their central way of looking at the world, that's fine. But it may be that in looking at *men's* lives and experiences, it is *one* template for interpretation - but not the only one, or the all-sufficient one. 

In that sense I do agree with the point made (can't remember by whom, sorry), that men *do* have to work out these issues in their own way, in words for which they themselves choose the meaning, in groups where they lead the conversation. Just as feminists decades ago insisted that being "pro-woman" didn't necessarily imply that one was "anti-man," so the corollary: Being interested in men's issues, in presenting a man's voice, does NOT automatically mean one is "anti-woman." 

One thing I've noticed about the BHM/FFA board is how men and women *are* (mostly) productively talking, even without necessarily looking for a partner.


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## olwen (Jul 11, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> I really shouldn't go to the mainboards at all.. it just makes things worse..
> Yeah.. don't mind the negativity I'm just venting..
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I do have a better understanding of what your issues are because you spoke about them. That's just it tho. The only way to correct ignorance is to educate. It's the same thing I try to do when I hear people make blanket statements about fat people that I know to be untrue or mythological. That's what you guys have to do about the issues that concern you. No one will really know, unless you educate them. 

I sort of get why you wouldn't want to share your experiences, and where the negativity comes from (sort of), but it truly disheartens me. I doubt you'd make much progress if you held onto it. I hope you all can move past the mistrust and weariness enough to see that being positive and hopeful - tho difficult perhaps to maintain, might serve you better in the long run. That is assuming this is something you care enough about to hope for change. If not then, feh. ::shrugs::


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## JiminOR (Jul 11, 2008)

-Jim saddles up his drama llama and rides roughshod through the forums- YEEHAW!


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## Tad (Jul 11, 2008)

Disclaimer 1: This is not a response to a specific post, or any specific poster. It is the current state of my thoughts after having read posts in several threads spread over multiple boards. My thoughts may change in the future, and at the least will probably evolve and clarify. Responses here, especially ones that disagree, do stand a good chance of contributing to that evolution and clarification.

Disclaimer 2: Some of the posts that fed into these overall thoughts were in the club house, so Ill be avoiding going into specifics about where any of this came from.

Disclaimer 3: Im going to make some generalization, about men and women as well as other things. I know generalizations never hold up in particular, but obviously I think these hold up in general or I would not be making them. It is a bit like looking at an impressionist painting: You know those are trees, but if you look in detail there is nothing that you could point at and say That is a leaf, that is a branch, here is bark on the trunk. Also Im using men and woman in terms more of social gender meaning rather than any biological meaning.

_I think that there is a very low tolerance, both here in Dimensions in particular and in society in general, for men arguing from positions of weakness. _​
I dont mean making poorly supported arguments (although that is probably true too). Rather I mean men saying that they are in a weak position, somewhere where they need help from others to change their position, and trying to argue that they should get that help.

I think that this is part of why we keep seeing parts of these discussions which run roughly:
Man1: This sucks
Respondent: then fix it.
Man1: I cant
Respondent: Yes you can! Try this, that, and this other thing.
Man1: Those wont work / Ive tried, and they dont work / I cant do those
Respondent: If all you are going to do is piss and moan, what is the point?

(Respondent may be male or female).

Man1 may be shocked, if for example hes read a lot of exchanges in the past which run something like:

Woman1: This sucks
Woman2: Oh you poor dear, I really feel for you! Have you tried this, that, or the other thing?
Woman1: Those wont work / Ive tried, and they dont work / I cant do those
Woman2: Well keep at it, I know A, B, and C who went through situations like yours, and things have gotten a bit better. If you are close enough you should come to the upcoming bash and come hang with the rest of us fatties. Youll have a great time and Ive got a hug waiting for you.

The respondent to Man1 may also be somewhat puzzled by what happened, if they were expecting a conversation more like:

Man2: this sucks
Respondent: then fix it.
Man2: Oh, Im working on that, I was just venting. Im sure I can beat this on my own.
Respondent: Tell us how it goes, you dont have to be all alone in this.
Man2: Well it might help if you came over and rubbed my 'back' (if respondent is female) / and brought beer (if respondent is male).

Basically, our cultural scripts expect stories about guys taking on their problems and beating them on their own. I dont think we, as a society, have much of a place/way of dealing with stories about guys who need help from others.

Now, it is at least very arguable that not so long ago we didnt have much of a place for stories of women succeeding on their own, or more generally for stories of women arguing from positions of strength. It is probable that some portion of our society still doesnt, but at the least such stories are becoming more common (and not before time!). Im really glad that there is change happening in that area. But I think we still have a long ways to go on the men in positions of weakness area. Part of this may be that I dont think there is much in the way of good scripts for men in positions of weakness (Im not counting go down fighting, without complaining as a good script). Part of it may relate to fundamentals of male competitiveness, Im not sure.

Anyway, the long and short of it seems to be, when a guy walks into the room and says to women Im in a weak position, have pity on me, pity does not seem to be the emotion that is evoked. Disdain seems likely, impatience almost for sure, and in some cases a feeling that somehow it is a trick, that they guy is trying to take something that he doesnt have a right to have.

I'm sure this is no great insight to those who actually pay any degree of attention to social gender issues, but it was the first time this idea crystallized for me (I think I'd subconsciously absorbed it pre-kindergarten, but I can be kind of slow sometimes!)


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 11, 2008)

Pretty much like any civil rights movement, feminism (especially 1st wave) reflected the values and concerns of its leaders. It was often criticized for being too reflective of white, upper middle class women which probably in large part it was. Poor women of color who'd always worked as maids or laundresses were wholly unconcerned with Title IX and whether or not universities were funding women's soccer teams at the same rates as football and they were not so much worried over equal pay when their jobs typically did not attract men anyway. Women working 2 jobs to support families did not have the luxury to nip off to conciousness raising support groups.

I'm an ally of the LGBT community, and there are discussions now about whether the issue of gay marriage has become too much at the forefront at the expense of issues such as AIDS drug assistance. Criticism has started to come out saying that while marriage is important, it's more important to worry over whether or not AIDS patients can afford medicine and that marriage is such a focus because the upper class financial supporters within the community are not concerned over access to health care.

I think the point i'm making here is if the leaders of a movement are not about your issues, it's probably because the issues are not about them.

Somebody upthread asked about issues FFAs had within the SA community. One thing that came to my mind is that a lot of what gets talked about is just not part of our day-to-day life experience. We can buy clothes in stores, we can go to a movie and not worry about seating (unless we're with a fat guy, but i'm talking about us as individual females and not BHMs partners), if we need to go someplace we just buy a plane ticket and go. We can go to a restaurant or bar without thinking about booths. So we're females in a place that is majority female, but so much of how we view the world differs from how they do.


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## Paquito (Jul 11, 2008)

edx said:


> Disclaimer 1: This is not a response to a specific post, or any specific poster. It is the current state of my thoughts after having read posts in several threads spread over multiple boards. My thoughts may change in the future, and at the least will probably evolve and clarify. Responses here, especially ones that disagree, do stand a good chance of contributing to that evolution and clarification.
> 
> Disclaimer 2: Some of the posts that fed into these overall thoughts were in the club house, so Ill be avoiding going into specifics about where any of this came from.
> 
> ...



Exactly what I've been trying to articulate, could not have been put better.


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## William (Jul 11, 2008)

Hi Stefanie

It is not the topic of messages that is the problem, the fact that these are Troll Posts that are only meant to disrupt and halt the flow of a conversation.

William 






stefanie said:


> I'm beginning to agree with you. I do appreciate what you've been writing, BTW, even if I don't always comment.
> 
> *William*, re: modding. Different web sites, and different forums on web sites have different mod rules. For instance, I participate on a fandom board where the mods are ruthless about off-topic posts; they'll remove them and lock the thread in a heartbeat. But that's "a different country," so to speak. What happened on these Main Board threads under discussion is apparently "OK" over here. My personal choice is to not participate in threads where that happens (I'm not saying anyone else "has" to do that; I only have so much energy for online, and scrapping isn't part of that.)
> 
> ...


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## RobitusinZ (Jul 11, 2008)

I personally feel that no one, regardless of gender, should ask for, expect, nor accept pity. Pity is a hopeless emotion, it's one that gives no sense of closure and does nothing to alleviate a person's dilemmas.

If someone came to me with a problem, I'd do my best to help them fix it, or at the very least offer some advice. But what's the point of pity? If I see someone stuck in a well, I'm not gonna go "Oh, poor baby". I'm going to toss them a rope.

There's a clear distinction between asking for help and asking for pity. I have immense patience for help, I have no tolerance for pity.

That being said, if I had a problem, as a man, I'd go to other men for help. I wouldn't post on a board of women and expect any sort of empathy. Likewise, it's ridiculous for a man to think he can put on a woman's shoes (though some do, literally), and have true empathy for the issues that they face. The genders don't hate each other, we simply have different ways of viewing the world. It's time to simply accept that and move forward.

As for the whole "Fat Acceptance" movement issue, simply because large men and women have different viewpoints and different needs and desires doesn't make it a hopeless movement. What makes it hopeless is the expectation of pity as a form of "acceptance". If we're not careful, we're going to end up like the handicapped, who get consistently viewed as inept or retarded because the pity steam-roller has just flattened them out in a mountain of euphemisms.

I hope I'm not ever thought of as "differently abled"...the only way I'm "differently abled" is in the fact that I'm able to down a baby cow's worth of ribs, baby!



edx said:


> Disclaimer 1: This is not a response to a specific post, or any specific poster. It is the current state of my thoughts after having read posts in several threads spread over multiple boards. My thoughts may change in the future, and at the least will probably evolve and clarify. Responses here, especially ones that disagree, do stand a good chance of contributing to that evolution and clarification.
> 
> Disclaimer 2: Some of the posts that fed into these overall thoughts were in the club house, so Ill be avoiding going into specifics about where any of this came from.
> 
> ...


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## CuriousKitten (Jul 11, 2008)

I agree with the statement that Dimensions is like it's own society or community because it truly is. It currently has 29,000 + members. To put that in perspective from my point of view, that is twice the amount of the region I live in and 10% of the total population of the country I live in! If we just look at my region, there are plenty of clashes between citizens of certain countries (which I won't mention as to not spark another and unrelated debate) who reside here and the native population. Some are on a personal level and some escalate to the point of needing police intervention. Clearly in any population of 29,000 (or 14,000 for that matter) there are going to be a certain percentage of people who are assholes, a certain percentage of people who are just plain misunderstood, a certain percentage of people who miss the point entirely, a certain percentage of people who seem out of their element here (or on other boards outside of the BHM FFA board), and then the native ie. senior member population.

I know that a internet simulated community website is not the same as real life but if you look at the vast number of participating people who come here and participate, there is bound to be a clash of opinions. Even in rallies or protests where people are on the same side there is still a difference of opinion at some level among the members even if they all stand together for the 'greater cause.' We are all here because we support fat acceptance whether we are a BBW, a FA, a FFA (thin or fat) or a BHM. Some members are more than one of those titles. We come from a variety of states, countries, and backgrounds to gather here to promote and reveal in fat acceptance. Let's focus on the bigger picture instead of individual disagreements. Let's agree to disagree on the finer points but stand together as a community to promote size acceptance - and by size acceptance I mean any size.

I'm a thin FFA and I have been lucky enough to not yet have felt much discrimination on this board but despite my smaller size, I want to be included in this community to promote size acceptance because it's something I believe in - both because I am naturally attracted to fat men but also because I truly believe people are people are we should judge individuals not stereotypes. People of all shapes, sizes, races, backgrounds etc are beautiful and special in their own way and we can all contribute in our own unique manner to make the world a better place.

You can go ahead and accuse me of being naive or narrowminded but I prefer to call myself *optimistic.*


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## squurp (Jul 11, 2008)

When I have posted on other boards besides this one, and even this one, more than once if my post strayed the littlest bit off topic, it was deleted by a moderator. 

In my opinion, conversation flows freely - or at least it should. I appreciate moderators keeping egregious off topic posts in line, but an occasional comment need not be removed. 

But, because this is the case, as I've mentioned before, here and there and everywhere, I've restricted my posting.


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## William (Jul 12, 2008)

Hi 

If a Forum going to become hostile whenever Fat Men express their views then it will repel instead of attract Fat Men. That is exactly what is happening right now. A few Fat Male haters control a entire forum.

William




squurp said:


> When I have posted on other boards besides this one, and even this one, more than once if my post strayed the littlest bit off topic, it was deleted by a moderator.
> 
> In my opinion, conversation flows freely - or at least it should. I appreciate moderators keeping egregious off topic posts in line, but an occasional comment need not be removed.
> 
> But, because this is the case, as I've mentioned before, here and there and everywhere, I've restricted my posting.


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## olwen (Jul 12, 2008)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> If a Forum going to become hostile whenever Fat Men express their views then it will repel instead of attract Fat Men. That is exactly what is happening right now. A few Fat Male haters control a entire forum.
> 
> William



OMFG, William, do you know how effing tiresome this statement is becoming? Tiresome because not only do you say it - and nothing else - repeatedly, but you say it as tho you're talking about the weather - It's sunny in Southern California. Seattle is headed for rain. Fat men are silenced in fat acceptance. 

...You talk as tho you are powerless. Clearly this is something that bothers you, but realize that you are not powerless. If it bothers you so much, then do something about it. You *can *do something about it other than complain like a broken record. And once you figure out something to do you will surely get all the support you need from all of us, men and women alike.

The way I see it, "Forums" don't silence fat men whenever they speak. Yet you insist that this is what is happening whenever someone disagrees with _you _or challenges your arguments? If you think you are getting hostile responses, it just might be because of *the way you say things*, *and not* because you are a fat man.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 12, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> And then there's the numbers game.. our voices are just drownded out.. all of the regulars here do post on the other boards.. you just don't notice us.. Same token, how many BBW's actually read this board, I've seen BBW's that are married to BHM state on the other boards they never look here.. why is that?




Maybe its just cuz they are married and not looking? I'm in a relationship with a BHM and I rarely come here myself. Once in a while I will if there's a title that catches my eye and gets me curious enough to come in.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 12, 2008)

Ella Bella said:


> Maybe its just cuz they are married and not looking? I'm in a relationship with a BHM and I rarely come here myself. Once in a while I will if there's a title that catches my eye and gets me curious enough to come in.



True, but this is not a dating site. I wish BBWs didn't stay away from this forum because they're not single or because they think the guys here are not attracted to BBWs or SSBBWs.

Lots of times we have discussions that could benefit from other people joining in. Also since you're in a relationship with a BHM you can always be an unofficial advisor to FFAs or would-be FFAs who need help or advice. I'm obviously not expecting you to be Dear Abby, just saying many of us not in relationships can benefit from the input of those who are.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 12, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> True, but this is not a dating site. I wish BBWs didn't stay away from this forum because they're not single or because they think the guys here are not attracted to BBWs or SSBBWs.
> 
> Lots of times we have discussions that could benefit from other people joining in. Also since you're in a relationship with a BHM you can always be an unofficial advisor to FFAs or would-be FFAs who need help or advice. I'm obviously not expecting you to be Dear Abby, just saying many of us not in relationships can benefit from the input of those who are.



I guess I can see you point. I'm not really an FFA though. Just a fat chick who happened to have fallen in love with a fat guy. The rest just kinda works itself out as we go along.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jul 12, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> True, but this is not a dating site. I wish BBWs didn't stay away from this forum because they're not single or because they think the guys here are not attracted to BBWs or SSBBWs.
> 
> Lots of times we have discussions that could benefit from other people joining in. Also since you're in a relationship with a BHM you can always be an unofficial advisor to FFAs or would-be FFAs who need help or advice. I'm obviously not expecting you to be Dear Abby, just saying many of us not in relationships can benefit from the input of those who are.




Agreed.



Ella Bella said:


> Maybe its just cuz they are married and not looking? I'm in a relationship with a BHM and I rarely come here myself. Once in a while I will if there's a title that catches my eye and gets me curious enough to come in.



Many of the FFAs here are not single. Off the top of my head BlueEyedBanshee and cammy who are both regular contributors are in established relationships(one is married).


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## William (Jul 12, 2008)

Hi Olwen

The behavior of some people here says it all. The constant negative focus on BHM subjects. It does not matter how many paragraphs that you write saying different, the behavior stands on its own. Fat Men only have been silence when troll posting takes over a thread, but the constant assault on BHM issues by a core group here destroys any chance of anything good happening.

I hope that you acknowledge that all through these problems BBW have been able to post about their issues problems and experiences without a troop of attackers destroying the the thread.

So you keep writing what ever you want, observation and the facts are always better.

William





olwen said:


> OMFG, William, do you know how effing tiresome this statement is becoming? Tiresome because not only do you say it - and nothing else - repeatedly, but you say it as tho you're talking about the weather - It's sunny in Southern California. Seattle is headed for rain. Fat men are silenced in fat acceptance.
> 
> ...You talk as tho you are powerless. Clearly this is something that bothers you, but realize that you are not powerless. If it bothers you so much, then do something about it. You *can *do something about it other than complain like a broken record. And once you figure out something to do you will surely get all the support you need from all of us, men and women alike.
> 
> The way I see it, "Forums" don't silence fat men whenever they speak. Yet you insist that this is what is happening whenever someone disagrees with _you _or challenges your arguments? If you think you are getting hostile responses, it just might be because of *the way you say things*, *and not* because you are a fat man.


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## olwen (Jul 12, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> The behavior of some people here says it all. The constant negative focus on BHM subjects. It does not matter how many paragraphs that you write saying different, the behavior stands on its own. Fat Men only have been silence when troll posting takes over a thread, but the constant assault on BHM issues by a core group here destroys any chance of anything good happening.
> 
> ...



I'm done trying to help you or listen to you. Your obstinacy has finally left me speechless.


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## William (Jul 12, 2008)

Hi Olwen

You say that BHM need to come out and express themselves, well you are right, but a vocal population of BHM are going to say a lot of things that go against the "Official Fat Acceptance Fact Book" entries on Fat Men 

There is really no use if the behavior here at Dimensions is a accurate representation of reactions that they will receive.

What everyone seems to miss about these debates that we have been having is that the major portion of the speech was wasted on the Trolls and Attackers instead of working on the issues.

William




olwen said:


> I'm done trying to help you or listen to you. Your obstinacy has finally left me speechless.


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## RobitusinZ (Jul 14, 2008)

In an effort to be positive and constructive, what are some issues that affect large men?

Clothing, maneuvering your way through the world (seating at retaurants, flights, etc), possibly personal hygiene and grooming, career issues, masculinity/emasculation issues, parenting issues...

What exactly is being "squashed"? Perhaps some of us who are more assertive than others can simply take up the cause and push our issues through so that they can be talked about.



William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> You say that BHM need to come out and express themselves, well you are right, but a vocal population of BHM are going to say a lot of things that go against the "Official Fat Acceptance Fact Book" entries on Fat Men
> 
> ...


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## William (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi

I would add media pressure, Fat Men are constantly attacked by articles on sperm health or hormones. I would add body image, despite what some people say Hollywood men are being roasted in the magazines over their bodies.

William 



RobitusinZ said:


> In an effort to be positive and constructive, what are some issues that affect large men?
> 
> Clothing, maneuvering your way through the world (seating at retaurants, flights, etc), possibly personal hygiene and grooming, career issues, masculinity/emasculation issues, parenting issues...
> 
> What exactly is being "squashed"? Perhaps some of us who are more assertive than others can simply take up the cause and push our issues through so that they can be talked about.


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