# Double Standards



## LordQuas (Feb 4, 2012)

So I was watching a few rants about closet FAs on YouTube and the undeniable theme is that men need to "man up" and learn to ignore society's negative opinions. Now I will be the first to agree with this wholeheartedly, I complain often about the fact that these type of men mess things up for all of us. After a while of watching these rants I couldnt help but wonder how much of the anger and frustration I saw was actually a result of projection on the part of these women.

Maybe it's just me but does it seem like there's more pressure on men to ignore the negative opinions of others in regards to liking bigger women than there is pressure on big women to ignore the negative opinions of others? I have been the target of ire in the past from larger women because they felt that I dont do enough as far as letting my taste in women be known and the men I know with similar tastes to me have felt this as well. Im certainly not going to hide my tastes but should I be expected to "carry the flag" to a certain degree because I am so comfortable with my tastes? I personally feel that the best thing I can do for "acceptance" is to just be myself, I feel like a salesman whenever Im asked to explain my tastes in any detail. 

Sorry this devolved into a semi-off topic tangent, these things happen at 7:30 AM


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## Shan34 (Feb 4, 2012)

I see your point. You should never feel obligated to fly any flag to your preferences....as preferences change anyways. I think you are doing right just by being yourself. 

Ignoring hater comments are a lot easier said than done. Some people will find anything to complain about.


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## olwen (Feb 4, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> So I was watching a few rants about closet FAs on YouTube and the undeniable theme is that men need to "man up" and learn to ignore society's negative opinions. Now I will be the first to agree with this wholeheartedly, I complain often about the fact that these type of men mess things up for all of us. After a while of watching these rants I couldnt help but wonder how much of the anger and frustration I saw was actually a result of projection on the part of these women.
> 
> *Maybe it's just me but does it seem like there's more pressure on men to ignore the negative opinions of others in regards to liking bigger women than there is pressure on big women to ignore the negative opinions of others? * I have been the target of ire in the past from larger women because they felt that I dont do enough as far as letting my taste in women be known and the men I know with similar tastes to me have felt this as well. Im certainly not going to hide my tastes but should I be expected to "carry the flag" to a certain degree because I am so comfortable with my tastes? I personally feel that the best thing I can do for "acceptance" is to just be myself, I feel like a salesman whenever Im asked to explain my tastes in any detail.
> 
> Sorry this devolved into a semi-off topic tangent, these things happen at 7:30 AM



Interesting question. I think there is pressure on men to be alpha males in general; sexual preferences aside. A guy must have himself together and be the best at what he does and demonstrate wisdom at all times, not be weak, etc, etc. That's a lot of pressure. 

But there is also pressure on all women to conform to traditional beauty standards, and any woman who doesn't is judged negatively. We aren't supposed to ignore those opinions, we are supposed to be shamed enough to do something about it, which is why so many people think fat shaming is a good weight loss tactic. 

I think the amount of pressure on all of us is about even. It's just expressed in different ways and our coping skills determine how we deal with it. I suppose it just comes down to how much one cares about conforming to societies standards of typical (upper) middle class living.


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## willowmoon (Feb 4, 2012)

Well I can say that back in the 1980's in high school, there was definitely the pressure to date the skinny girls early on, as if it were a rite of passage or something. So there was that peer pressure of sorts, cause you didn't DARE date a girl who was overweight, or you'd be cast into a social abyss.  I'll be the first to admit that I would fall into the category of being somewhat of a coward back then because of that pressure, so back in my freshman year I usually dated skinny girls so that I'd "fit in". But I did date my first "big" girl back in my sophomore year ... and some of my so-called friends would give me shit about it ... but I realized honestly I didn't care about their opinions or my "social status" and I'd defend my choice. The funny thing is that one of my "friends" who gave me the most hell about it wound up marrying a BBW later in life, so go figure. Perhaps there were more closeted FA's out there after all. 

Predominantly I have dated girls who were either BBW or at least chubby to some degree ...and I have dated some (but not many) skinny girls as well, but these were by choice, not due to pressure from society or whatever.

I don't know if there's as much pressure these days for boys & girls in high school when it comes to dating and the whole body image thing. As a nation, it's been said that the U.S. is steadily becoming more obese. I'd like to believe that there is more size acceptance out there these days, that perhaps we've progressed enough to realize not everyone fits into a particular size category, and damned if we fit into something outside of that category. Wishful thinking, perhaps?


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 4, 2012)

*Shrugs* I've never really had that problem. I don't really believe I have to be yelling it to the world at all times (If at all), but I don't hide the fact either. At the same time, I can be pretty private about myself in general, especially with my coworkers. But that's mainly because I don't like most of them. lol


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 4, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> So I was watching a few rants about closet FAs on YouTube and the undeniable theme is that men need to "man up" and learn to ignore society's negative opinions. Now I will be the first to agree with this wholeheartedly, I complain often about the fact that these type of men mess things up for all of us. After a while of watching these rants I couldnt help but wonder how much of the anger and frustration I saw was actually a result of projection on the part of these women.
> 
> Maybe it's just me but does it seem like there's more pressure on men to ignore the negative opinions of others in regards to liking bigger women than there is pressure on big women to ignore the negative opinions of others? I have been the target of ire in the past from larger women because they felt that I dont do enough as far as letting my taste in women be known and the men I know with similar tastes to me have felt this as well. Im certainly not going to hide my tastes but should I be expected to "carry the flag" to a certain degree because I am so comfortable with my tastes? I personally feel that the best thing I can do for "acceptance" is to just be myself, I feel like a salesman whenever Im asked to explain my tastes in any detail.
> 
> Sorry this devolved into a semi-off topic tangent, these things happen at 7:30 AM



There is kind of a difference because no one askes me to explain my fat, they just treat me like shit and charge me more for stuff. I gotta buy two seats, I have to call the restaurant in advance just to go in, I get cursed out for taking up two seats on the bus. I don't think it's a double standard. I'm fed the same lines about going out there and living my life and being who I am and I get ridicule heaped on my head for my low self esteem if I'm not wearing a bright yellow bra over it all. I don't have the liberty to psych myself out in advance and say, "Ok, i'm just going to go in there and play it off. I don't have to tell anybody shit - I'm just going to get in, get what I need, get out and not be the official spokes person for anything." Doesn't matter what color bra I'm wearing, my fat is loud and proud even if I don't want it to be front and center.

Now I'm not saying that men have to be trussed up and paraded around. I don't agree with that. Only if someone WANTS to. God love the ones who want to, but I still don't think the exasperation some people have with men who gloat about being quiet about their desires is indicative of a double standard in expectations. I think it's only indicative of the frustrations and maybe a little jealousy we have that we must survive without those options wether we like it or not.


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## The Orange Mage (Feb 4, 2012)

In my case, and the case of many (but not all) FAs I know of is that their attraction to fat folk is instinctual. Instinct beats out societal pressure a lot of the time.

Now, think about it here, your average fat woman has no such instincts with regards to fat. All she has the negative societal messages.

That is why this isn't a double standard. As an FA you have a inner advantage against the negative societal messages because no matter how loud those messages are, your gut tells you that you are okay and right.


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## Blockierer (Feb 5, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> . I have been the target of ire in the past from larger women because they felt that I dont do enough as far as letting my taste in women be known and the men I know with similar tastes to me have felt this as well. Im certainly not going to hide my tastes but should I be expected to "carry the flag" to a certain degree because I am so comfortable with my tastes? .


I know what you mean. 
I'm married to a SSBBW and all our relatives and closer friends know that I met my wife online on a dating site for men who love fat women. I've never got negative comments from them. 
But the point is, should we carry the flag for that type of women we admire so much? I think "yes", definitely FAs should. For an FA that's the best way to support size acceptance. Carrying the flag is freeing.


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## Lovelyone (Feb 5, 2012)

I dont understand why my posts keep being deleted from this thread. Can the mod please send me a response. I would much appreciate it.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 5, 2012)

Lovelyone said:


> I dont understand why my posts keep being deleted from this thread. Can the mod please send me a response. I would much appreciate it.



I believe it is because this forum is designated as a forum strictly for FA/FFA thoughts and perspective and nt so much a place for BBW/BHM to explain what they want from us. I gave an opinion that was asked for via the perspective of an FFA who happens to also be an SSBBW, but I didn't go into anything beyond what was asked for.

Since I'm here I may as well add something else I've been on the fence about adding. As BBW/BHM we experience a lot of things but at no time are we required to wave some sort of flag that proclaims our preferences. We might be FA, gay or straight or whatever but that's a private issue that we can express in anyway we choose. That's just sort of a given right of humanity, our sexuality is pretty much hallowed ground. This thread was never really an attempt to justify the proverbial dastardly closeted person who mistreats people. This is talking about recognized bundaries that we all share, and wether or not an FA/FFA should be required to open up those boundaries to the public for the sake of size acceptance. I don't think so. The damand for size acceptance should not come at the expense of civil liberties to any of us I don't think.


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## Weirdo890 (Feb 5, 2012)

I think there is pressure on men to be tough and not give in, but that seems to go against the herd mentality they feed everyone the rest of the time. Nobody is allowed time to develop themselves emotionally and know who they are.

I say that FAs (and people in general) should learn to accept themselves before flying their flag publicly.


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## Lovelyone (Feb 5, 2012)

LillyBBBW said:


> I believe it is because this forum is designated as a forum strictly for FA/FFA thoughts and perspective and nt so much a place for BBW/BHM to explain what they want from us. I gave an opinion that was asked for via the perspective of an FFA who happens to also be an SSBBW, but I didn't go into anything beyond what was asked for.
> 
> Since I'm here I may as well add something else I've been on the fence about adding. As BBW/BHM we experience a lot of things but at no time are we required to wave some sort of flag that proclaims our preferences. We might be FA, gay or straight or whatever but that's a private issue that we can express in anyway we choose. That's just sort of a given right of humanity, our sexuality is pretty much hallowed ground. This thread was never really an attempt to justify the proverbial dastardly closeted person who mistreats people. This is talking about recognized bundaries that we all share, and wether or not an FA/FFA should be required to open up those boundaries to the public for the sake of size acceptance. I don't think so. The damand for size acceptance should not come at the expense of civil liberties to any of us I don't think.



So because I don't out right admit that I am an FA/FFA...my posts are deleted? That just doesn't seem right to me--and whose to say who DOES and who DOESN'T fit into these categories? WHo gets to decide that--someone who does not know me personally NOR do they know my preferences? Honestly this whole separatism thing is getting ridiculous. I guess I should have studied the FFA manual a lot better so that I can earn my patch and become part of the group. OH, that's right, there ISNT A MANUAL. LAME.


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## Tina (Feb 5, 2012)

Just in case there is any question, I love big guys, so I believe I have a right to post here... My post was deleted, too. And yet I've been saying here for 14 years that I love fat men. While I'm bi-sizual, I've been married to two men (obviously not at the same time... ) who were, and are, varying degrees of fat. I prefer a big guy/fat guy/whatever, but fat is not the deciding factor. I've seen many guys post here who are also bi-sizual, and they are not deleted and then ignored. Is there some kind of a test to take in order not to be deleted?

I think in general that there is always going to be more difficulty for the fat person than for the FA, male or female. But that doesn't mean the person's partner won't get some grief, or at the very least questioning, from others. It's always been my opinion that if a person doesn't have the courage of their preference in dating a fat person they should just stay away; it's damaging to date someone who considers you a fat, dirty secret, whether they're a male or female. I do think that, fair or not, it's more expected that yes, LQ, men be open and not hide when dating a fat woman than the other way around.


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## Donna (Feb 5, 2012)

.................................


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 5, 2012)

Lovelyone said:


> So because I don't out right admit that I am an FA/FFA...my posts are deleted? That just doesn't seem right to me--and whose to say who DOES and who DOESN'T fit into these categories? WHo gets to decide that--someone who does not know me personally NOR do they know my preferences? Honestly this whole separatism thing is getting ridiculous. I guess I should have studied the FFA manual a lot better so that I can earn my patch and become part of the group. OH, that's right, there ISNT A MANUAL. LAME.



I'm not a Mod so I don't really know. I was just guessing. Honestly I have no idea what the rules are anymore around here - this whole place appears booby trapped with trick words, trap doors, secret bannings, timeouts.... I don't know what the hell's going on. I just try to be polite and lay low.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 6, 2012)

As a BBW I am fat on sight. I don't have to do anything to reveal my fatness, and can't hide it, or keep it within my circle of trusted friends. I am publicly fat. My fat is my flag. 

As an FFA, no one knows if I don't open my mouth and say, Hey I LOVE fat men, or....I'm obviously with one in public. An FA has a choice. A fat person does not. There is no double standard. I'm not discounting the pain of an FA/FFA and their own struggles, but it's not the same thing and probably because of my experiences of being abused, bullied, dismissed, discriminated against, etc. by my very existence, I have a very low tolerance level for people who are attracted to fat people yet want to remain undercover.

You can choose to fly your flag. BBWs (and BHMs for that matter) don't have that choice.


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## LordQuas (Feb 6, 2012)

The Orange Mage said:


> As an FA you have a inner advantage against the negative societal messages because no matter how loud those messages are, your gut tells you that you are okay and right.



That's not usually how it plays out in one's mind though. As men we are conditioned to and expected to be attracted to a certain type of female. How do you think it feels when you realize that not only do most people think you're weird/gross for your tastes but a good portion of those you're attracted to think you're weird/gross for being attracted to them? People don't usually "hide" something they're not ashamed of, if it were so easy as to be able to just listen to and follow our instincts then bigger women wouldnt be complaining about men being cowards and we'd all be happier.


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## LordQuas (Feb 6, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> As a BBW I am fat on sight. I don't have to do anything to reveal my fatness, and can't hide it, or keep it within my circle of trusted friends. I am publicly fat. My fat is my flag.
> 
> As an FFA, no one knows if I don't open my mouth and say, Hey I LOVE fat men, or....I'm obviously with one in public. An FA has a choice. A fat person does not. There is no double standard. I'm not discounting the pain of an FA/FFA and their own struggles, but it's not the same thing and probably because of my experiences of being abused, bullied, dismissed, discriminated against, etc. by my very existence, I have a very low tolerance level for people who are attracted to fat people yet want to remain undercover.
> 
> You can choose to fly your flag. BBWs (and BHMs for that matter) don't have that choice.



I never wanted to imply that what male FAs deal with is worse, that's obviously not true. What I was referring to was pressure to increase acceptance of big people and ignore the negativity of our society.


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## LifeTraveller (Feb 6, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> So I was watching a few rants about closet FAs on YouTube and the undeniable theme is that men need to "man up" and learn to ignore society's negative opinions. Now I will be the first to agree with this wholeheartedly, I complain often about the fact that these type of men mess things up for all of us. After a while of watching these rants I couldnt help but wonder how much of the anger and frustration I saw was actually a result of projection on the part of these women.




The whole idea of "hiding" one's preferences has become so "foreign" to me, I find it hard to understand. Yet I remember as a young man in my teens I was steered by "peer pressure" to date "average sized" women. There came a time when I had to, "To mine own self be true". I had to admit I adored women that were fat! Perhaps that's a failure to sugar coat it, but hey! It is what it is.

I unabashedly dated women who were not average in any way. . Not just their weight. . At the end of the day, physical attraction is wonderful, but there's nothing better than having someone who shares some of your interests, loves to talk with you not just to you. . Someone who "has it together" themselves. . Someone you want to "be" around every moment of the day and night. .

Life in general is a risk, a calculated risk sometimes, but a risk none the less. Love and physical attraction between two people is even more risky. . Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. . But hell, how will you ever know until you take the first step? I can't tell you how many times you have to try before it clicks. . if it ever does. . but I'd rather have tried and failed than to sit around and wonder. .. . "The saddest words of tongue or pen are these few words What Might Have Been"! 

I took a serious chance and ended up having over 20 years with one of the most beautiful SSBBW in the world (in my humble opinion) So guys, if it's the term "man up", "be a stand up guy", or whatever euphemistic saying is "in" right now. . I say you'll never know until you try it!!

But on the other hand, life is a game of give and take. . Sometimes it seems like someone just gives and the other just takes. . Don't fall into that trap!! As you are given, give in return. . that goes for men and women alike. .Sometimes the most beautiful things come in less than perfect packaging! I know I'm an average looking guy at best, and was so very blessed with the unfailing love of someone. . I don't know how I got so lucky, but had I not been willing to "try". . I never would have!! Besides, people are going to talk about you no matter what you do. . so make sure you're enjoying yourself in the process. .


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 6, 2012)

LifeTraveller said:


> The whole idea of "hiding" one's preferences has become so "foreign" to me, I find it hard to understand. Yet I remember as a young man in my teens I was steered by "peer pressure" to date "average sized" women. There came a time when I had to, "To mine own self be true". I had to admit I adored women that were fat! Perhaps that's a failure to sugar coat it, but hey! It is what it is.
> 
> I unabashedly dated women who were not average in any way. . Not just their weight. . At the end of the day, physical attraction is wonderful, but there's nothing better than having someone who shares some of your interests, loves to talk with you not just to you. . Someone who "has it together" themselves. . Someone you want to "be" around every moment of the day and night. .
> 
> ...



I love that saying. Can I steal it?


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## Tina (Feb 6, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> That's not usually how it plays out in one's mind though. As men we are conditioned to and expected to be attracted to a certain type of female. How do you think it feels when you realize that not only do most people think you're weird/gross for your tastes but a good portion of those you're attracted to think you're weird/gross for being attracted to them? People don't usually "hide" something they're not ashamed of, if it were so easy as to be able to just listen to and follow our instincts then bigger women wouldnt be complaining about men being cowards and we'd all be happier.





LordQuas said:


> I never wanted to imply that what male FAs deal with is worse, that's obviously not true. What I was referring to was pressure to increase acceptance of big people and ignore the negativity of our society.


There will always be negativity about something, though, no? It is a whole different dynamic to be fat than it is to love fat people, though. Since you framed it this way in your original post, I will answer thusly:

As a fat woman, and before that a fat girl, I got grief from everyone -- even my family. Name-calling, marginalization, discrimination -- all this even as a child. Growing up I was always different, and not in a good way. I thought I was a hideous troll, but as I got older and decided to look at myself differently and start loving not just who I am but how I look, I was able to see that I was actually beautiful all those years I thought I was hideous. Fat body and all, I was beautiful.

So, the first time I was dating a guy who I came to see, in fairly short order, considered me his fat, dirty secret, I dropped him. It brought back to me all of the old feelings of being Other, of being unacceptable, ugly, unworthy and more. I determined that I would never again date someone who couldn't hold my hand or kiss me in public; who wouldn't stick up for me with his family and friends, or co-workers. I see those who use fat people sexually but will not own up to their preference to be cowards. Saying that word got me in trouble here, but after the way it made me feel about myself, I make no apologies. So, when you talk about how if men get a hard time for not ignoring the hard time they get for their preference then fat women should be treated equivalently, I say it's a different dynamic entirely. As I mentioned in my first post, which no longer exists, as a fat woman, no one has ever said anything to me about the fat men I have dated and married. But that's because I'm already considered to be socially unacceptable, and those who are fat bigots think us fat people all belong together so that we don't 'pollute' thin people. A fat guy gets less grief for dating a fat woman, just like the obverse is true. But a thin man dating a fat woman, or a thin woman dating a fat man -- or mix it up, depending on the person's orientation, if s/he is to be truly supportive, must stand up for their preference, because of the social currency that thinness carries. Their hiding, their shame, can do more damage socially. Though to the heart of the fat person, it's not the size of the one who is ashamed of them that hurts, it's the shame.

So if you really care for that fat person you're dating or are married to ("you" being the general you), then be out about it, and try to understand that it will be more difficult, and might take longer, for the fat person you care for and/or love to reach that same acceptance and bravado for themselves.


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## LifeTraveller (Feb 6, 2012)

LillyBBBW said:


> I love that saying. Can I steal it?



Anytime Lily!


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## olwen (Feb 6, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> That's not usually how it plays out in one's mind though. As men we are conditioned to and expected to be attracted to a certain type of female. How do you think it feels when you realize that not only do most people think you're weird/gross for your tastes but a good portion of those you're attracted to think you're weird/gross for being attracted to them? People don't usually "hide" something they're not ashamed of, if it were so easy as to be able to just listen to and follow our instincts then bigger women wouldnt be complaining about men being cowards and we'd all be happier.



The same way it must feel to be considered the gross thing. It sucks. As to the fat women who also think you are gross, consider that well, even skinny women have body issues. Guys who date skinny women just consider it a given that their woman probably isn't confident all the time and that if they say anything to indicate that their girl is less than beautiful they will be sleeping on the couch. A lot of women no matter the size just don't understand why their significant others like them or find them beautiful and will ask "what do you want to be with me for?" Or there are women who are considered highly attractive by society's standards but who aren't smart or interesting and might think that the only reason a guy is with them is for their looks and they might have disdain for a guy for that and would ask "what do you want to be with me for? We have nothing to talk about?" 

There are fat girls who don't dislike their bodies entirely, and who will think there's nothing wrong with you. It's not impossible. Difficult yes, but not impossible. If you keep meeting fat girls who think there is something wrong with you then move on. That girl is not for you. We have to do the same. It's hard sometimes, but that's just what you have to do to maintain some sanity.


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## Lovelyone (Feb 6, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> *snipped*
> As an FFA, no one knows if I don't open my mouth and say, Hey I LOVE fat men, or....I'm obviously with one in public. An FA has a choice. A fat person does not. There is no double standard. I'm not discounting the pain of an FA/FFA and their own struggles, but it's not the same thing and probably because of my experiences of being abused, bullied, dismissed, discriminated against, etc. by my very existence, I have a very low tolerance level for people who are attracted to fat people yet want to remain undercover.
> 
> You can choose to fly your flag. BBWs (and BHMs for that matter) don't have that choice.



This is pretty much the exact same thing that I said in a post that got deleted.


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## LordQuas (Feb 6, 2012)

olwen said:


> The same way it must feel to be considered the gross thing. It sucks. As to the fat women who also think you are gross, consider that well, even skinny women have body issues. Guys who date skinny women just consider it a given that their woman probably isn't confident all the time and that if they say anything to indicate that their girl is less than beautiful they will be sleeping on the couch. A lot of women no matter the size just don't understand why their significant others like them or find them beautiful and will ask "what do you want to be with me for?" Or there are women who are considered highly attractive by society's standards but who aren't smart or interesting and might think that the only reason a guy is with them is for their looks and they might have disdain for a guy for that and would ask "what do you want to be with me for? We have nothing to talk about?"
> 
> There are fat girls who don't dislike their bodies entirely, and who will think there's nothing wrong with you. It's not impossible. Difficult yes, but not impossible. If you keep meeting fat girls who think there is something wrong with you then move on. That girl is not for you. We have to do the same. It's hard sometimes, but that's just what you have to do to maintain some sanity.



For the record it may not seem like it but I am in an extremely successful relationship. Even when single I felt pretty good about my dating life because I have a clear idea of what I want and need in a relationship and feel like Im good at realizing when Im just not compatible with someone.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 6, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> I never wanted to imply that what male FAs deal with is worse, that's obviously not true. *What I was referring to was pressure to increase acceptance of big people and ignore the negativity of our society.*


I wasn't making an assumption that you made an inference. 

Re the last sentence of your response: Allow me to pose it to you this way--what do you see as your alternatives? 



You (general 'you') must decide as an individual where you make a stand. If you make no stand, you've still made a decision, haven't you? Silence speaks volumes but to what end? To what purpose does THAT serve? These are questions I ask you to ask yourself. You owe me nothing. Do you owe something to that woman you're with, though? (I would not deny or even evade the question if someone point blank commented or asked me if I was into fat guys). 
Sometimes that stand depends on your personality, or how strong you feel about your convictions, and not just convictions about the unfairness of how society/culture behave toward people based on appearance, but also your own convictions about how YOU behave or respond toward it, ie; violence vs non-violence (I know some who feel harsh words qualify as violence). You (general 'you') can't control how someone behaves, for the most part. However, you can control how you behave and respond. Sometimes ignoring pressure is safer. Sometimes, it's cowardly. I respond from TWO angles. As a BBW who experiences much of what I've mentioned upthread, every time I walk out the door, I sometimes act reflexively and lash out, sometimes I take an opportunity to educate someone if I think there's the possibility to, I choose my battles and the hills I choose to die on. As an FFA, to me, perhaps because I see it from both sides, there is no comparison. I still don't believe there is a double standard because you are not forced to 'fly your flag' You have a choice. I also urge you to not take points that challenge yours personally because this discussion is valid, and we all often have something to learn even from opposing viewpoints.


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## Azrael (Feb 7, 2012)

Not much of a double standard really.

You see, as mentioned previously by others, people can't hide being fat. They can't hide being fat and in general they will be discriminated against it because society places a value on fat. If they're fat, they're considered to be "lazy," "gluttonous," and in general a weaker person, regardless of if that is true or not.

As FAs we can hide that. We don't have to deal with it if we don't want to so because of that we aren't discriminated against (as if there's really that much of a pressure) or pressured as much. Now, if an individual wants to date a fat person, they should be out about it. The women/man has to deal with being discriminated against and treated bad because of their size and we don't have to, unless we're fat. So, the least a person can do (if they're going to date a fat person) is to be out about it since a fat person has to deal with _stigma all the time_. More importantly, flaunt it and don't be ashamed of it. Not only does a partner deserve to not be treated as a forbidden secret but it can help a lover feel secure in knowing that you care for them and aren't ashamed, obviously.

Now, if people aren't going to be out about it, fine. As others have stated, there's no point living to please people because they'll never please everyone. So live your life and if someone takes an issue with it, flip them the bird and tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.


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## Tina (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm not sure I agree that FAs do not get discriminated against; they do, just not in the same way, and only if they choose to make their preference known. What I mean by that is that sure, if you're out and about and not with your fat gf or bf, no one knows unless you make it known, so no discrimination. But I've written in these parts before about my ex-husband, whose co-workers would try to set him up with thin women (!!) because they couldn't 'get' what he saw in me. I'm sure that it's absolutely possible that society thinks less of those thin people who love fat people, male or female, and find them to be sick or defective. There is probably some outright discrimination, but I'm guessing that most of it is quiet discrimination.


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## Fat Brian (Feb 8, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> You (general 'you') must decide as an individual where you make a stand. If you make no stand, you've still made a decision, haven't you?



You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill. I will choose a path that's clear, I will chose freewill.


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## Webmaster (Feb 8, 2012)

It seems that some continue to be confused about the purpose and rules of this particular forum. It is a protected forum that was established to let FAs discuss their issues without being lectured, just as the BBW forum was created as a safe venue for BBWs to discuss their issues.

So while it's okay for a BBW who can honestly claim to be a real FA to come in here and post on her genuine FA side, it is NOT okay to come in here to lecture FAs, claiming FA status.

Please do respect this rule. Else, posts do disappear.


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## wrestlingguy (Feb 8, 2012)

I have much that I can contribute to this thread and this particular forum, but I have chosen not to say much since July of 2011, because I found myself in a similar situation with regard to posting in the BBW forum, when the thread I posted in clearly didn't state that the responses should be women ONLY.

A little anecdote. I had 12 years of Catholic education. When I got to 7th and 8th grades, we would have dances, and the nuns would line the boys up on one side of the gym, and the girls on the other. Each group would kinda hang out in a cluster, and occasionally yell something out that the other group would hear, and when people from the opposite group would begin to yell back or interact, the nuns would rush in to separate us. We never danced much, come to think of it, and it affected a lot of people when they got to high school, since they hadn't learned enough about the opposite sex because of the lack of interaction, and almost mystification of each other.

But hey, if it works for you guys..................


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## EvilPrincess (Feb 8, 2012)

I understand what you are talking about. The other thing I would like to remind everyone about is that there is the Lounge to interact in, for fun and goofiness, the Main Dimensions board for everything fat related, Fat Sexuality and all the other sub-forums to express and learn about the opposite sex and other members of the forums. A protected forum is a delicate balance. Sometimes feelings can get hurt, and someone who does have an opinion and expresses it well, may still not fall within what is appropriate for the forum. That happens on both the FA and BBW forum. I would strongly suggest that the FA/FFAs use this forum for its intended purpose and get as much out of it as possible. I read as much as I can and find it fascinating when a good healthy exchange goes on and people learn. This is really a chance for the proud and out loud FAs and FFAs to support those coming to terms with things and for those same Fledgling FAs to be guided past the misconceptions and stumbling blocks we all come across. People who follow what is considered the normal path learn how to interact and society tells them mostly how to conduct themselves. This is one of the venues for our newbies to explore. Thanks for letting me say my say.


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## LordQuas (Feb 9, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> I wasn't making an assumption that you made an inference.
> 
> Re the last sentence of your response: Allow me to pose it to you this way--what do you see as your alternatives?
> 
> ...



I would argue that the fact that you are a BBW makes it impossible for you to really see this from both sides just as it's impossible for me to see both sides since I have never been anything but skinny. Also, I think it's unfair to label my decision to not make a big deal about my tastes as "silence" because I feel like that implies that I never make any effort to defend myself or discuss the topic.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 9, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> I would argue that the fact that you are a BBW makes it impossible for you to really see this from both sides just as it's impossible for me to see both sides since I have never been anything but skinny. Also, I think it's unfair to label my decision to not make a big deal about my tastes as "silence" because I feel like that implies that I never make any effort to defend myself or discuss the topic.



But you didn't POSE the question specifically to people who have been fat then thin or vice versa and your pool has now shrunk considerably if that's a criteria.

How could neither you nor I NOT possibly see this from BOTH sides since we are BOTH into fat people? I'm not being facetious here, I truly don't understand--do you want only fat FAs to comment? thin FFAs to comment? BHMs that are into thin FFAs to comment? Would you, for the sake of clarity please define your criteria? 

As far as your decision--you've posted elsewhere and eloquently, I might add, about how you've struggled with what to say and I made it VERY clear and NOT sarcastically at all that it that you meant 'general you', and not LordQuas. We keep trying to stay on-topic and this is the third time you've complained that people are making imaginary inferences. If you keep jumping to so many conclusions and assumptions about inferences you're going to end up with a concussion. Isn't this about the bigger picture and not you or is this really about you because you're taking this very personally, IMO and it's not necessary. I DON'T CONDEMN YOU. I'm trying to relate to you.

I think I further explained and if not, then I will here now, that we pick and choose our battles. And it's up to us, our conscious, to know whether or not we can live with those choices without regret, remorse or guilt--should it be lashing out, speaking calmly or walking away and being silent.

I don't think it's easy for FAs by a long shot. I USED to think that anyone closeted was an unmitigated coward until I had lengthy conversations with several (some of whom are women) whose integrity is unquestionable and they say it's a process for them and now I believe that's entirely possible. I've learned a great deal from opposing viewpoints and have adjusted my own several times, here on Dims for all to see, so this really isn't a we vs them thing, unless that's your intention. Is it?


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## LordQuas (Feb 10, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> But you didn't POSE the question specifically to people who have been fat then thin or vice versa and your pool has now shrunk considerably if that's a criteria.
> 
> How could neither you nor I NOT possibly see this from BOTH sides since we are BOTH into fat people? I'm not being facetious here, I truly don't understand--do you want only fat FAs to comment? thin FFAs to comment? BHMs that are into thin FFAs to comment? Would you, for the sake of clarity please define your criteria?
> 
> ...



You feel like you're trying to relate, I feel like you're attacking me. I say people jump to conclusions about me, you say I jump to conclusions about what people think of me. Perception is reality and it's clear to me that we see things from two completely different perspectives and while I dont think there's anything wrong with it we clearly aren't going to get much out of going back and forth. I obviously suck at getting my point across because I feel misinterpreted all the time. And I loathe saying that because it makes me sound like some rebellious teenager talking about how the world doesnt understand them because they listen to Nirvana and Garbage. But clearly I don't fit in a place like Dims and that's okay, I need to be on the internet less anyways.


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## Tina (Feb 10, 2012)

You know, I don't think everyone misinterprets you all the time, or that it's a reason to leave Dims or message boards. It is definitely true that it's harder to communicate on boards than it is IRL, usually. We miss inflection of voice and cues from facial expressions that might normally let us know when someone is being light-hearted, or when they're angry, etc.

It's possible you didn't communicate as well as you would like; I know I am not certain I fully understand what you're getting at. IMO that's just a reason to try to make sure you're being clear in posting, and then if most seem to understand you but a few just don't get it, it's not you, it's them. I just think that closing up and isolating is not the answer.


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## Tina (Feb 10, 2012)

Just kind of an addendum.

After this thread I went over to the main board and saw a post by you and the attendant kind of negative discussion. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that maybe you post giving kind of a rough idea of what you're wanting to discuss, thinking that you know what you mean. But maybe others don't, because the few thread-starting posts I've read of yours don't seem fleshed out enough, so that it's hard to know exactly what you're getting at. I don't post here as much as I used to, so I don't really know you or your intentions, so please don't think I'm commenting on you personally, I'm not, just more on the misunderstandings that seem to happen.


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## LordQuas (Feb 11, 2012)

Tina said:


> Just kind of an addendum.
> 
> After this thread I went over to the main board and saw a post by you and the attendant kind of negative discussion. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that maybe you post giving kind of a rough idea of what you're wanting to discuss, thinking that you know what you mean. But maybe others don't, because the few thread-starting posts I've read of yours don't seem fleshed out enough, so that it's hard to know exactly what you're getting at. I don't post here as much as I used to, so I don't really know you or your intentions, so please don't think I'm commenting on you personally, I'm not, just more on the misunderstandings that seem to happen.



When I make threads like this I want to spark discussion so I purposely don't fill in some details hoping it will provide a jump off for a discussion. So in that sense I am fully expecting and hoping to have people who don't interpret a question the same way as me, whats the point of having a discussion if everyone has the same view as you? What I get annoyed with is when people assume that I ask these questions out of insecurity or some sort of unhappiness when I genuinely just like talking about stuff. And I know not everyone or even a majority of people do this but it's just frustrating because it seems to be a running theme in my life and I don't know how to stop it. I really just think I'm bad at expressing myself clearly and I'm okay with that for the most part, I just don't like being attacked like any normal person and I feel like some members of this forum attack someone when they don't understand them. I really appreciate your posts though, I need to be told when Im being rash and/or overly dramatic.


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## Tina (Feb 11, 2012)

LQ, elucidating doesn't mean that you're trying to get people to agree with you, but more, to understand you. What will happen, and may already be happening, is that when you're not clear you'll get more discussion about your style, or what people perceive (because they don't understand), than the subject you're actually wanting to talk about.

People can disagree vehemently with you, but at least if they know what it is you're trying to say, or your purpose, you'll likely be discussing that which you actually *want* to discuss, instead of having meta discussions.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 11, 2012)

LordQuas said:


> When I make threads like this I want to spark discussion so I purposely don't fill in some details hoping it will provide a jump off for a discussion. Then why are you frustrated by another's frustration that they don't understand when you know you're specifically leaving information out--not giving us the whole picture and then blaming participants for a normal reaction. Are we some sort of social experiment to you?  So in that sense I am fully expecting and hoping to have people who don't interpret a question the same way as me, whats the point of having a discussion if everyone has the same view as you? What's the point of a discussion if the person posing an incomplete question will counter that dissension is personal attack? What I get annoyed with is when people assume that I ask these questions out of insecurity or some sort of unhappiness when I genuinely just like talking about stuff. Anyone who posts here likes talking about stuff. How many times does someone have to explain they're not attacking you personally. Your taking it personally is on you, not them especially when you've deliberately skewed the question in order to provoke a response. And I know not everyone or even a majority of people do this but it's just frustrating because it seems to be a running theme in my life and I don't know how to stop it.I submit that this would indicate that it really IS you. And I'm sorry about that but you might want to look into that.  I really just think I'm bad at expressing myself clearly and I'm okay with that for the most part,You don't seem to be okay because you open threads and then when someone misunderstands you or needs more information, you hide behind 'I'm being attacked' and it gives people a sense that you're trolling. Also, if you're really okay with that, why do you keep complaining and posing more threads and deliberately leave out pertinent information?  I just don't like being attacked like any normal person Normal is subjective. Again, if you consider dissent as attack, that is on you. and I feel like some members of this forum attack someone when they don't understand them. This is circular arguing because people have made efforts to communicate that they're not attacking you and your insistence that they are, although they're saying they're trying to engage in the thread, seems IMO to be a very convenient thing to run behind whenever you're asked to be accountable for your words. You're too smart to go through life behaving like a victim. I really appreciate your posts though, I need to be told when Im being rash and/or overly dramatic.



.......................


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## agouderia (Feb 11, 2012)

Our dear linguistic ancestors the Romans have a proverb: Nomen est omen.


ver*quas*t | verquaster | am verquasteten

verquast [Austrian/ Southern German] for

half-baked {adj} [coll.] 
garbled {adj} 
mixed-up {adj}	

see: http://www.dict.cc/?s=verquast


Sorry for the etymological prank, but I couldn't resist  after reading through this thread!


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## truebebeblue (Feb 11, 2012)

I don't think its a double standard... I think it is just a different experience. 
When it is a mixed (fat-thin) couple there are going to be some issues that you just cannot relate to because you are not in that group.
I have dated fat guys who were NOT ok with their fatness and I think it was helpful for them to be around me because I am so pro-fat and loved their bellies etc. 
I cannot tell you exactly what anyone should do re: hostility towards a partner
all I can say is I imagine if you care for any person in a minority,oppressed,or misunderstood group that out of love for them you become a sort of activist.
You love that person and you want them to have the best life you can. 
I personally am not able to sit idle when I hear someone say something negative about a group especially when someone I love belongs to that group..
if it's a family member friend or lover whatever...natural protectiveness I guess mixed with ability to see through misconceptions about that group.


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