# Europeans and Fat



## DharmaDave (Oct 5, 2009)

I was sitting in a Mickey D's in central Guangzhou, China drinking my McCafe (which being roughly half the price of a regular Starbucks, the choice between the two is obvious) and I overhear these tres cool Europeans, soccer starters and all, talking about how bad American food is and how disgusting fat Americans are. Having been overseas for well over a year now, I know this is a common international sentiment. But what I found ironic was that here these people were sitting in a McDonald's gorging on milkshakes and hambugers, all the while saying deriding the very food they were eating. As an American I very rarely eat this kind of food as does my fiancee who is definitely in the BBW category. Just listening to ths conversation pissed me off. So what does everybody think? What's the reason for this gross hypocrisy which I've observed on more than one occasion?


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## Wild Zero (Oct 5, 2009)

Simple, the rest of the world blows and America rules HATERS HATE


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## Friday (Oct 5, 2009)

It's fashionable to bash America and Americans. Why not ask them why they're stuffing their faces with it if it's so horrid (asks the woman who thinks the only edible substance to be found at MickeyD's is the fries).


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 5, 2009)

Imagine living in that hell 24/7. I have nothing to add other than living in this environment has killed me and now I am just a fat shell of who I used to be.


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## Jes (Oct 5, 2009)

while no one wants to overhear that awful conversation, and while I think those people sound like jerks, there is truth in what they say (not in terms of people being disgusting, but in terms of the food choices Americans make, and are given). I've seen evidence of this on a grand scale. And while I have no doubt that you and your GF rarely eat in McDonalds, the 2 of you aren't the American public as a whole. Do you and your GF play soccer regularly, like those guys you overheard? Do most Americans play a sport weekly, just for fun? I think Americans have issues with portion size (most restaurants serve family-sized sodas to single diners, and 3 times as much pasta as people in other countries are given). We also live in a very large place where most people need a car and where there are few considerations given to bikers (no biking lanes, dangerous traffic, etc.). Gyms cost money and a good number of Americans don't have the standard of living that allows for 'luxury' expenses like that. And worst of all, in my opinion, is the result of the Gov's subsidation of the corn growers, which gave us chemical sugar, which is worse for the body than just plain sugar or butter (in moderation, of course). Our food is gross. I'll say it again: our food is gross. Genetically modified, full of chemicals. 
I don't believe gross portions and gross chemicals make American bodies gross, but I can't go so far as to say that drinking 32 oz of Coke with a meal or the weird shit they put into snacks to avoid using butter (and to make the snack cheaper to produce) is good for us or what everyone else does. That simply isn't true in my experience. It may be getting more true as time goes on (and we'll see the effects of that in other populations, I believe) and as the world becomes more 'global' which is a misnomer; to a great extent globalization=americanization. We're exporting some of our bad habits (in food and in everything else).


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## DharmaDave (Oct 5, 2009)

I really can't imagine, BigBelly. It's hugely irritating and I'm not even fat. I doubt you'd have the same problem in Asia. A fat woman might evoke curiousity but I don't it would be the same sort of disgust that Europeans have. Every so often I've noticed Asian men checking out my fiancee.


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## DharmaDave (Oct 5, 2009)

Jess. I think I would agree with you on the whole. Americans need more excercise. Fast food is gross. It's obviously not good for you. But there are probably many more McDonald's, KFCs, and Burger Kings outside the US than within and every country you go to, each of the restaurants make myriad regional adaptations. Its no longer really even American. It's American in that it originated in the US. But so did the light bulb and no one goes around calling that American anymore. What outrages me is not so much the attack on my nationality but the sentiment that underlies what these people (and others) are saying: that overweight people are slovenly burger inhaling, milkshape slurping pigs. I'm not fat and never have been. I excercise regulary and always walk to work. And so does my fiancee, who is fat. Our first date was an afternoon hike. It's really an hideous picture that these kinds of people paint and one that is wholly untrue. And if they blame the existence of fat people on McDonald's and the fear of becoming fat haunts them as much as I assume it does, why the hell would they eat there? Not only are people like that jerks, they're also being hypocritical. It's pretty stupid.


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## Jes (Oct 5, 2009)

Well, if you're a soccer player (for a living? Is that what you meant?) you can eat a few more burgers than I, an office worker, probably can. 

I know that for my family and friends overseas, a fast food treat is just that. I don't know everyone in Europe, and I don't know everyone in America, but if I compare the people i DO know, none of the Europeans I know go get fast food once a week or even once every few weeks.

But, that's anecdotal evidence and I can't say that I've run a scientific study. Chocolate comes from Europe (well, someplace else first, in the raw form, I know), so I know Europeans eat fine chocolate. And it's real chocolate, cocoa and real fat, and most eat it in moderation. What do I eat? Poptarts, full of chemicals. Non-dairy milkshakes (um, what?). Prepared foods with preservatives. My family still goes to the store every few days. I sometimes go more than a week without doing so, which means my food needs to have more preservatives. In other words, I don't think our culture supports, or provides, good choices. I think other western countries still have it better than we do.

And no, Obama haters, I'm not a socialist.


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## Jes (Oct 5, 2009)

ps: anyway, we have lots of non-US readers here at Dims. I'd encourage people to give their opinions. Do you agree with Dharma? Me? Somewhere in between? What generalizations can you make about food choices and habits where you live? Have you visited the US? Can you give us your opinions about the same things here?


a funny story: my family is dutch. And in holland, for the most part, you get small glasses for drinks. Beer glasses are the largest glasses I've ever seen in Europe when you're at the average bar/restaurant. 

so years ago, a relative got married to an american man, and at the wedding, she received a box of 6 glass drinking glasses. And she turned to a friend and quietly said: I don't need 6 vases!! And why would you get someone 6 identical vases, anyway? So again, while I think it's wrong and terrible to assume this difference makes americans gross, I think it's also wrong to assume there's no difference between there and here.

Anyway, I'm not trying to badger or convince you Dharma. We've each had our experiences which, to me, sound different, and are valid for both of us.


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## DharmaDave (Oct 5, 2009)

When i was growing, which really was only a few years go, we never went to McDonald's or any other chain like that. A hamburger for me was always something made on the backyard grill on the 4th of July. We rarely even ate at restuarants and if it we did, it was an actual restuarant. Maybe the food wasn't the healthiest but there was always real vegetables and fish every friday. Beef maybe every two weeks. Soda was never allowed. Kids drank milk(admittedly, often coffee milk) and orange juice in the morning and adults the same except for an occassionally beer or wine. I mean I feel that lots of people eat like that still, maybe not all. I think there are alot of terrible generalizations when it comes to this topic. Maybe there is some truth what these people were saying but it isn't the whole truth. I would blame the "obesity epidemic" more on the suburban lifestyle than anything. People are in and out of the house, no time to have a proper meal or even do any excercise. Maybe I'm out of touch but I've heard this same old song and dance about America from people who've never been there too many times. Maybe these particular people have but it doesn't matter they're just perpetuating a stereotype that's getting pretty old.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 5, 2009)

Jes said:


> ps: anyway, we have lots of non-US readers here at Dims. I'd encourage people to give their opinions. Do you agree with Dharma? Me? Somewhere in between? What generalizations can you make about food choices and habits where you live? Have you visited the US? Can you give us your opinions about the same things here?
> 
> 
> a funny story: my family is dutch. And in holland, for the most part, you get small glasses for drinks. Beer glasses are the largest glasses I've ever seen in Europe when you're at the average bar/restaurant.
> ...



Europeans don't typically add ice to their drinks. It's an annoying habit that made me quite happy to leave there and return to the states where I could get my ice bucket full with the customary eyedropper of root beer.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 5, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> Jess. I think I would agree with you on the whole. Americans need more excercise. Fast food is gross. It's obviously not good for you. But there are probably many more McDonald's, KFCs, and Burger Kings outside the US than within and every country you go to, each of the restaurants make myriad regional adaptations. Its no longer really even American. It's American in that it originated in the US. But so did the light bulb and no one goes around calling that American anymore. What outrages me is not so much the attack on my nationality but the sentiment that underlies what these people (and others) are saying: that overweight people are slovenly burger inhaling, milkshape slurping pigs. I'm not fat and never have been. I excercise regulary and always walk to work. And so does my fiancee, who is fat. Our first date was an afternoon hike. It's really an hideous picture that these kinds of people paint and one that is wholly untrue. And if they blame the existence of fat people on McDonald's and the fear of becoming fat haunts them as much as I assume it does, why the hell would they eat there? Not only are people like that jerks, they're also being hypocritical. It's pretty stupid.



Dave, on a whole, I think that the Europeans have us beat in terms of living a "healthy" lifestyle. The guys sitting in McDonalds were probably there for a treat, not a routine meal. I think that there is some truth to what they are saying (subtracting out the value judgments, that is). Our portions sizes are e-nor-mous. Most restaurant meals are actually 2-3 servings. Many of our meals choices are overloaded with carbs, fat, salt, sugars, preservatives. Generally, Americans don't go for lean proteins, fresh fruits & vegetables, and whole grains as a lifestyle choice. We reach for what is quick, easy, inexpensive, and delicious. Objectively speaking, Americans tend to be far heavier than Europeans (on a whole). In countries where people routinely bike to work, where a serving of meat is actually the size of a deck of cards, and a sugar-loaded soft drink is a rare treat served in an 8-ounce glass, our choices probably really are quite puzzling.


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## Jes (Oct 5, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> I would blame the "obesity epidemic" more on the suburban lifestyle than anything. People are in and out of the house, no time to have a proper meal or even do any excercise..



I think that this is a very good point. Americans work harder (in terms of hours spent, pay received) than most other western nations, according to something I heard on NPR once, 5 million years ago. And so I think we are working more than a lot of other people (and less than many, many other non-industrialized or non-1st-world nations) and don't have the time to relax and be more active. I agree.


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## DharmaDave (Oct 5, 2009)

I never really said that these people were wrong about McDonald's and like restuarants. I had a Chinese friend ask which meal during the day, do we eat pizza. My answer is 2 a.m. when you've been drinking.There is this weird idea that Americans eat hamburgers and pizza all the time like the french eat baguettes or the koreans kimchi and rice. That's not really true from my personal experience. Maybe growing up on left leaning Cape Cod, MA has given me a wrong impression. I've never really spent more than a couple of weeks outiside of New England in the US so my impression might be skewed. But when people with this sentiment see my fiancee, I would imagine they think to themselve, "Look, a fat American who can't stop swilling Pepsi and eating hot dogs." When it gets to that level, its kind of offensive (and false) and that's what I was saying was bullshit.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 5, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> I never really said that these people were wrong about McDonald's and like restuarants. I had a Chinese friend ask which meal during the day, do we eat pizza. My answer is 2 a.m. when you've been drinking.



 The perfect response.



> There is this weird idea that Americans eat hamburgers and pizza all the time like the french eat baguettes or the koreans kimchi and rice. That's not really true from my personal experience. Maybe growing up on left leaning Cape Cod, MA has given me a wrong impression. I've never really spent more than a couple of weeks outiside of New England in the US so my impression might be skewed. But when people with this sentiment see my fiancee, I would imagine they think to themselve, "Look, a fat American who can't stop swilling Pepsi and eating hot dogs." When it gets to that level, its kind of offensive (and false) and that's what I was saying was bullshit.



I know that it's not really an answer, just an observation, but Europeans certainly don't corner the market on ugly stereotypes. What can we do about them, when we encounter them, except shrug it off (or be flippantly dismissive about it, as evidenced above).


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 5, 2009)

Eurocentric
: centered on Europe or the Europeans; especially :* reflecting a tendency to interpret the world in terms of western and especially European or Anglo-American values and experiences*

Euro·cen·tric (yo&#821;or&#8242;&#333; sen&#8242;trik)

adjective
centering on Europe or emphasizing the values, history, perspective, etc. of the European tradition, *sometimes so as to exclude other cultural groups within a society*

http://www.yourdictionary.com/eurocentrism


They do the same stuff we do.....and think everything should be done the way they do it. *shrugs*

Let me guess....it was a bunch of teens in the McDonalds smack talking probably. 
I hear the same crap about America on a pre-dominantly Euro forum I visit- they love talking about the USA more than the Americans do, it seems.....
Blow it off.....


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## Astarte (Oct 5, 2009)

I think that generalizing Europeans is as stupid as the generalization of Americans DharmaDave happened to overhear. There actually isn't such a thing as "European". In Europe there are a bunch of nations, that do not share same culture, politics or government. There are old monarchies and new democracies and they all have their own relations to US. Every country has different kinds of media and education. Those things have a great effect on how people in that country think about Americans.

Each country has their own culture, too, so it's pretty hard for me to say, how for example a Bulgarian or a guy from Monaco tend to eat.  In Finland we do eat quite clean and unprocessed food, but this is unfortunately changing fast. Portions are getting bigger and fast food is more popular, but still we do have a tradition of eating healthy. One of the best things here (foodwise) are nutritious school lunches, which are free to all pupils in elementary school.

I think we do have some prejudices about Americans here in Finland, too. Some of them may be correct, but most of them are just created by soap operas, advertisement and other hearsay. Many people, who have these prejudices, have most likely never met an American or visited United States.


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## Tooz (Oct 5, 2009)

I find all the ragging on McDonald's funny.

Because of all the fire it has come under, McDonald's is probably one of the better choices for fast food in America. I mean, look at Hardee's, or Long John Silvers-- absolutely terrible. McDonald's has been trying to (seemingly) embark on a "fresh" food path, saying that the burgers are all beef, etc. I trust their food more than some other fast food chains, that's for sure. This is not to say it's fine dining, but it's no better than TGI Friday's. I think because it's at the top of the heap, it attracts the most attention.

Also, fast food doesn't have to be bad for you. I use D'Angelo (New England chain) as an example. I grew up eating a plain turkey sub from them several times a week. Lean, non-brined turkey on a pretty basic sub roll. D'Angelo also sells a wide variety of baked Lays as well as normal, fried Lays. Damn, I miss that place. Wish they came farther up into Maine! 

Regarding the stereotyping, I'd simply ask why they were eating the food if it was so disgusting. The "gross American" stereotype really rubs me the wrong way, because again, maybe I've spent so much time in New England, but I never really knew anyone who fit that mold.


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## lypeaches (Oct 5, 2009)

Problem is, and Jes spoke to this, it's not just the fast food that's the problem. Pretty much all of the food that we purchase in the grocery store has been pumped full of chemicals, or additives, or hormones. It takes a hyper aware, dedicated AND financially well off person to be able to provide themselves with a diet that is chemical/additive/hormone free. A way of life that in other parts of the world is standard.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 5, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> Problem is, and Jes spoke to this, it's not just the fast food that's the problem. Pretty much all of the food that we purchase in the grocery store has been pumped full of chemicals, or additives, or hormones. It takes a hyper aware, dedicated AND financially well off person to be able to provide themselves with a diet that is chemical/additive/hormone free. A way of life that in other parts of the world is standard.



I'm not so sure of that, lypeaches. I have a 3-year-old at home, so I make choices now that I otherwise wouldn't have. I buy a lot of fresh fruit, leafy vegetables, and meat (mostly chicken). I don't buy organic unless its food that I normally wouldn't thoroughly wash before consuming, and NEVER buy organic bananas/oranges & fruits that I peel -- why bother? I feel obligated to cook reasonably nutritious meals for my son, at least a few times a week. What really happens: The food sits in the refrigerator, unopened ... uneaten ... and my tyke happily gorges himself on Velveeta Shells 'n Cheese. Point is, I do buy the stuff. And I remember what I used to buy, pre-toddler. The fresh produce is no more expensive than pre-packaged stuff. It's just more cumbersome. You have to actually cook it, and to me, the greater challenge is knowing HOW to cook it so that anyone, far less a 3 year old, will eat it. And having the time/motivation to do so after working 10-12 hours. Hence, far too often mama just boils water for mac 'n cheese.

The fruit is pricy, but mostly because I buy a lot of berries and other seasonal fruits. Apples, oranges, bananas are very cheap, especially bought in bulk. Lettuce, green peppers, cucumbers, etc ... also very cheap. Chicken thighs, drumsticks, certain cuts of pork, packages of lean hamburger .. also a lot cheaper per serving than any prepared meal, even fast food. 

I could be wrong -- I'm no nutritionist -- but I don't think much would be added to food that's already in its natural element & requires cooking.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 5, 2009)

Verbeoten topic but as of yesterday I've lost 13 pounds on an eating plan that included trips to Burger King, a cup of coffee every morning and a half a gallon of iced tea when I can remember to make some. I really get tired of all the, "American food is terrible and it's all McDonald's fault because all fat Americans eat there," rhetoric. A lifestyle that promotes snatch and run behavior when it comes to eating is a large contributor to the unhealthy state of ALL Americans, not just us unsightly fat people. I couldn't pay any of my thin friends to eat vegetarian like HottieMegan does for example. I dropped a few pounds extra because I've made a concerted effort to cook my own meals and plan where to get my food when I can't carry my own. Guess what? It includes McDonalds. Oh the horror. This way is somewhat of a timesuck but it's necessary if I want to preserve my health. I probably won't lose much more than this but I will still be a whole lot better off than a thin person slobbering on a milkshake in a Euro Mcdonalds complaining about my existance over here in the US. Tell them to put the ball down and go get a job.



Tooz said:


> I find all the ragging on McDonald's funny.
> 
> Because of all the fire it has come under, McDonald's is probably one of the better choices for fast food in America. I mean, look at Hardee's, or Long John Silvers-- absolutely terrible. McDonald's has been trying to (seemingly) embark on a "fresh" food path, saying that the burgers are all beef, etc. I trust their food more than some other fast food chains, that's for sure. This is not to say it's fine dining, but it's no better than TGI Friday's. I think because it's at the top of the heap, it attracts the most attention.
> 
> ...


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## lypeaches (Oct 5, 2009)

I actually agree with you Tracijo, that buying meat and vegetables and cooking it yourself is actually no more expensive, maybe cheaper than the quickie prepared meals. UNLESS, and it's a big unless, you purchase organic. If it's not organic, it has been either sprayed with pesticides, or pumped full of hormones. Still healthier than fast food, but still different than meat in Europe, say, where using growth hormones in livestock is banned. I don't know how prices are where you live, but here organic meat is up to triple the price of regular meat. Organic produce is usually double the price. 

So, in my opinion, you can eat fairly healthy at low cost...but if you're truly trying to eat without any additives...you have to go organic, and that is expensive.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 5, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> I actually agree with you Tracijo, that buying meat and vegetables and cooking it yourself is actually no more expensive, maybe cheaper than the quickie prepared meals. UNLESS, and it's a big unless, you purchase organic. If it's not organic, it has been either sprayed with pesticides, or pumped full of hormones. Still healthier than fast food, but still different than meat in Europe, say, where using growth hormones in livestock is banned. I don't know how prices are where you live, but here organic meat is up to triple the price of regular meat. Organic produce is usually double the price.
> 
> So, in my opinion, you can eat fairly healthy at low cost...but if you're truly trying to eat without any additives...you have to go organic, and that is expensive.



I am fortunate because here the local super market has its own label of organic meats and produce which I buy exclusevely. The damand for organic has gone up and merchants are listening. At least up here in my neck of the woods. A little bit more than the other stuff but *only* a little bit.


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## Fonzy (Oct 5, 2009)

Not all Europeans think that Americans are like how you described in your original post Dharma, its wrong to assume or make the generalization as it is equally wrong for other nations and cultures to make generalizations about Americans. Unfortunately the vast majority of people tend to "judge a book by its cover" and make these generalizations about one another based on, often times, false or misinformed information. Very few people seem to take the trouble of talking to someone for more than five minutes and understanding both sides of a story before they cast judgment. Sadly that just seems to be the way the world is at the mo!

I have only been to the states once but I intend to go again soon in the hopes of finding work over there aswell as to be close to my other half, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the food over there. As far as portions go I didn't notice any huge differences between the States and where I live, Ireland. A steak over there is pretty much the exact same as a steak over here, also the side portions, vegetables etc also appeared (to me at least) to be the same. I ate out regularly while I was over in Seattle this summer, usually at Applebees :eat2: and I didn't notice any major differences in portion sizes. One thing I did notice and was actually rather surprised by was that you guys over in the States have free re-fills on alot of drinks  Its just a shame that it didn't apply on alcoholic drinks lol :happy: The size of the drinks containers in fast food places such MD's and BK was the only thing which I personally noticed, a medium one in the states would be the equivalent of our large over here. Having said that I make it a point not to eat at a fast food joint like that especially MD's since I usually end up feeling hungry again within the hour after being there. I'd much rather go to a sandwich bar or deli and get a filled roll or sandwich than pay the same amount for a quick meal in MD's, but thats just me. I suppose the biggest thing that surprised me about the states is the apparent ease with which someone can get a full blown meal, you simply have to drive like 5 or 10 minutes and you can nearly get anything you want and then on top of that you can simply sit and wait or eat in your own car! As far as I know we don't have one drive in fast food joint over here in Ireland, I'm not saying this to boast or anything but it does seem that going to get fast food is a bit more of a gimmick or treat over this side of the pond. Having said that I'd personally rather starve and wait to get home to make a meal than pop into MD's and eat a cardboard hamburger, its just not worth the money for the quality of the food you get.



> I think that the Europeans have us beat in terms of living a "healthy" lifestyle.


 Interesting point Traci but I know people in my hometown here who eat out very regularly, often 4-5 times a week be it going to one of the local chippers (english style fish and chip shop), Chinese or pizza palours (we now have an Apache Pizza ).


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## lypeaches (Oct 5, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I am fortunate because here the local super market has its own label of organic meats and produce which I buy exclusevely. The damand for organic has gone up and merchants are listening. At least up here in my neck of the woods. A little bit more than the other stuff but *only* a little bit.



That's awesome Lilly! I hope that trend continues!


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 5, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> I actually agree with you Tracijo, that buying meat and vegetables and cooking it yourself is actually no more expensive, maybe cheaper than the quickie prepared meals. UNLESS, and it's a big unless, you purchase organic. If it's not organic, it has been either sprayed with pesticides, or pumped full of hormones. Still healthier than fast food, but still different than meat in Europe, say, where using growth hormones in livestock is banned. I don't know how prices are where you live, but here organic meat is up to triple the price of regular meat. Organic produce is usually double the price.
> 
> So, in my opinion, you can eat fairly healthy at low cost...but if you're truly trying to eat without any additives...you have to go organic, and that is expensive.



The only organic items that I buy are berries, dairy products, and peanut butter (the latter, just because it tastes better to me). They are more expensive, but not double the price. I can get a gallon of organic milk for about fifty cents more. I honestly don't know the difference in price for meat but then, I haven't been overly concerned with hormone additives & maybe I should be. I'll add that to my list of stuff that mama isn't doing right and feels guilty about while still not making any effort to change the behavior  Still, though ... I've got to assume that the stuff I'm cooking at home is cheaper & healthier than the grab 'n go alternatives. I think that Americans on the whole don't cook at home as much - probably in part because we do work longer hours, and have lengthier commutes, and let's face it ... we also have an abundance of just about everything here ... quick, easy, and reasonably inexpensive.


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## Vespertine (Oct 5, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> But when people with this sentiment see my fiancee, I would imagine they think to themselve, "Look, a fat American who can't stop swilling Pepsi and eating hot dogs." When it gets to that level, its kind of offensive (and false) and that's what I was saying was bullshit.



I know Americans think that about me as well. I think it can be hard for any person who easily keeps slim to imagine just how much food it would take to get to a ss/bbw size (as if that were the sole factor). I guess that's where the mental imagery comes from of endless binges, because /they'd/ have to eat that way to get that big? For me, it takes a lot less effort...

When I lived in the Netherlands I lost a lot of weight without trying much. I suspect partly it was the food being free of added crap, cos I ate pretty much the same things I did in the US (I'm so picky and boring with food) and I did not skimp portions. I wonder about soil depletion and overall declining quality of American food, only the best produce I've found in the US comes close to the common Dutch produce I got used to. 

I've also noted that since I moved to California and got a car, from NYC where I was used to walking around and taking public transit, I have gained a lot of weight. I gained huge amounts of weight one year when I worked 80hrs a week, and was constantly in a state of fatigue...I hardly ever exercised that year, and found myself eating simply to stay awake. I know these are common (kind of uniquely) American experiences. I think all the factors add up, not that being fat is bad, but there's probably elements out of individual control that need to be better understood.


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## Tad (Oct 5, 2009)

First to address the simple answer: why would those young folk have the impression that Americans are all fat and live on McDonalds? Odds are theyve never been to the US, so where do they get their impressions from? The media, some of it even American media. And what is the media obsessed with? Rising obesity levels, and what to blame it on? And what do they blame it on? Just about everything short of the kitchen sink (although someone may have done that by now too), but most especially and loudly on junk food.

It is not likely that those kids had gone to see Supersize Me, but it is entirely possible that theyd heard passing mention of it, and the odds are decent that they have seen The Simpsons and maybe even Family Guy or South Park. If you asked them Do you think these represent an accurate view of American Society they would probably say that of course not. But that is the reasoned answer, at the un-reasoned level they probably have absorbed a lot of that information as representative of the US.

Why would they bring that up when they are in McDonalds? Most likely guilt, or at least guilt avoidance. They know fast food is not the healthiest way to eat, but they wanted the convenience of McDonalds, or the speed of it, or quite possibly just the relative familiarity of it (a lot of people who are not traveling for pleasure get quickly tired of the adventure of dealing with foreign cuisine). So there they were, and associated with McDonalds is all the thousand and one news stories, jokes on television, and so forth that theyve absorbed about it. How to feel better? Make it clear that you are not one of those people, the ones who eat there all the time. It is just an exception, it is those other people who are gross and disgusting, not us!

Second, about the broader international attitudes. As a non-American: by far the fattest places Ive visited have been in the US, as have the most garish fast-food paradises. But Ive been to places in the US too where you see very few fat people and nary a fast food joint, and Ive been to places in Canada (or even the UK) where there are quite substantial levels of obesity. I think that, like most commonly quoted differences between men and women, the variations within each country are far larger than the variations between them. 

I spent my final two years of high school living in France, going to an American school, where about half the students were American and half from all around the world. You certainly heard the Americans going on about the French in various regards, but also other small groups going on about the Americans (The Americans abroad are even more over the top patriotic than the Americans in the US!). Defining us and them seems to be a pretty ingrained part of human nature (although I think the strength of that drive varies by person), and once weve divided things that way we are usually more than happy to impugn the character and motives of them, and by contrast to show the superiority of us. That sort of tribalism is pretty ugly, and no doubt responsible for a lot of misery over the ages. I think it has generally faded a lot compared to generations past (just read popular novels or articles written even fifty or a hundred years agooy!) But it is still out there. (and btw, there were essentially no fat young women at my school, no matter the nationality. It was a long two years for a young FA)

Finally, some studies that have stuck in my mind:
- I recall one study concluding that Americans now (or at least at the time of the study, several years ago) were not really eating more calories than they had a generation previous. The conclusion seemed to be that if people were fatter it was mostly a difference in activities levels. Of course that was averages, there may a larger minority who eat quite high levels of calories now compared to times past. 

- Another study I recall was done back in the seventies, at a large company when they introduced electric typewriters into the typing pool of a (well over a hundred) women. In the first year with the electric typewriters they gained an average of ten pounds. Now, there was not a control population, maybe a lot of them were young adults who were apt to gain some anyway, but the gain was certainly larger than expected. The difference seemed to be from the reduced physical effort of using the electric typewriters. Now think of dishwashers, clothes dryers, TV remote controls, take out food and micro-waving of ready-prepared meals and all the other conveniences of modern life, which have penetrated fastest in the US due to a combination of wealth, embrace of new technology, and space (a lot of these things do take up room).

- Apparently we have lower metabolic rates while watching TV than we do while sleeping. But of course we are far more apt to eat while watching TV than when asleep. Now look at this graph: http://www.economist.com/research/a...story.cfm?subjectid=7933596&story_id=14252309

- A recent scientific paper concluded that fire may have been critical to the evolution of modern man. Pre-modern man had a more substantial intestinal tract compared to the modern man, it seems, and the conclusions of this paper were that we were able to make due with a less robust gut after we started cooking our food. Cooked food takes less effort (both in bodily infrastructure and in calories consumed) to digest than does raw food. Highly processed food is even easier to digest. A quick rule of thumb is that the softer something is, the easier it probably is to digest (not always true, but modern white bread is softer than a true whole wheat bread, for instance, and is indeed easier to digest). So while we may not be ingesting more calories, we may be netting more calories from the food because it is easier for us to digest.


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## Wild Zero (Oct 5, 2009)

These colors don't run. Or get spelled with a u


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## DharmaDave (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm glad my first actual post here sparked some discussin. I hope to participate more actively on this board in the future.

--Dave.


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## agouderia (Oct 6, 2009)

.... Europeans are fat, too and are continuously getting fatter, too. In most countries in Europe those exact same debates about obesity as a national challenge are raging as in the US. 

The main difference - apart from the fact that prejudices, klischees and stereotypes about other countries seem to be a basic human need - is that in Europe there still clearly are visibly less super-sized people who weigh more than double of a normal weight.
That - along with the US fast food culture that has successfully spilled over to Europe, but is resented by the self-proclaimed "cultural elite" in most European countries - is what mainly fuels the European perception of the "fat Americans".

As someone who has spent her whole life going back and forth across the Atlantic I can relate to most observations already made here:

- coming from Europe, you really always have to make sure to order "small" portions, otherwise you don't stand a chance of finishing them.

- fresh produce and dairy in the US really is a lot more expensive and difficult to get, we over here are spoiled by the European single market and the wide selection of fresh products it provides throughout the EU.

- and yes - having done programs with Americans in Europe before - we walk and bike a lot more not as a means of exercise but as our normal form of transportation.

But - there is a flip side to this - in the US you also have a noticable segment of the population that is thinner and fitter into advanced age than in Europe. And Americans who are into a so-called healthy life-style are also much stricter, if not to say more rigid about dietary issues and weight, and the tolerance for people who are only slightly or modestly over the thin ideal can be shockingly low.


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## Cors (Oct 6, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> I really can't imagine, BigBelly. It's hugely irritating and I'm not even fat. I doubt you'd have the same problem in Asia. A fat woman might evoke curiousity but I don't it would be the same sort of disgust that Europeans have. Every so often I've noticed Asian men checking out my fiancee.



Not true for me at all! I grew up in Asia (mostly Singapore). It is a terribly fat-phobic place and most people have a twisted idea of what fat is. I mean, I am 5'5", 100lbs and a US size 0 - some Asians actually consider _me_ chubby and often tell me that to my face. My sister, at 130ish lbs, a US size 6/8 is the biggest girl in her school. She gets bullied for her weight all the time, gets called so many names on the streets and even got spit on by strangers. My ex there was 330lbs at her heaviest and the kind of abuse she got on a daily basis was unbelievable. In addition, if you have a BMI over 23 or even 21 in some places, you had to attend the TAF Club, an extremely cruel, humiliating and public obesity prevention program in school and all overweight guys have to serve an additional three months in the army, which is compulsory for all male citizens. 

The typical Asian girl is flat-chested, with not much of a butt so Asian guys who are otherwise fat-phobic often end up gawking at bigger girls for that reason. Women who are actually fat by non-Asian standards are pretty damn rare and are considered by most as some sort of a fetish. People are generally quite a bit more accepting of fat non-Asians though. In fact, they even expect non-Asians to be quite a bit bigger... 

I now live in the UK. People there are not exactly fat-friendly (or thin-friendly, since I got sandwiches shoved in my face quite a few times) and they tend to be pretty damn vocal about it. It doesn't help that tabloids often feature fat families leeching off welfare benefits. If you are plump, you shouldn't have much of a problem even in thinner cities like London but if you are actually supersized, then yes, you will get a lot of hate everywhere. 

I actually find the rest of Europe more fat-friendly than the UK, even though there aren't as many fat people there. I spend quite a bit of time in Denmark and find that people there don't seem to be that obsessed about weight. Most people also don't have a habit of gawking at or making comments about strangers, no matter what their size though it could just be that they are apathetic, or just not as outspoken about it.


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## Shosh (Oct 6, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> I really can't imagine, BigBelly. It's hugely irritating and I'm not even fat. I doubt you'd have the same problem in Asia. A fat woman might evoke curiousity but I don't it would be the same sort of disgust that Europeans have. Every so often I've noticed Asian men checking out my fiancee.



I would have to disagree with that. I used to work as an Early Childhood teacher with prodominantly Vietnamese and Chinese children and families. I was forever having my weight laughed about by family members, and other staff got their digs in too.


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## Shosh (Oct 6, 2009)

I have heard some Aussies criticizing Americans about the whole obesity issue there. Interesting given that there is actually many fat Australians.

When I went to test my mobility scooter that I now need due to my MS progressing, the man showing me the scooter told me it was ok for me to have a scooter, as I had a disease that was effecting my mobility. He then went on to say that people who are fat should not be using them, and that they should be walking to lose the weight, and that he could not believe the amount of fat people he saw whilst in America using scooters. 

So it is not just Europeans criticizing Americans it would seem.


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## mergirl (Oct 6, 2009)

Scotland is the third fattest country in the world, we eat a lot of fried food and we put a lot of ice in our drinks (Especially in McDonalds). We are part of the European Union. Different countries in the european union differ far too much to make any sort of sweeping statements. Though, my spanish friend said that generally most Spanish people used to be thin but now they are getting fatter as more American food outlets are introduced and people (especially young people love them) -Its only been in the past 10 years that places like Pizza hut and McDonalds have become part of Spanish society and the people ARE getting fatter. I don't think the 'Americanization' of places is always to blame. Take Scotland for instance, we were fat before 'fast food' as we tend to fry a lot of stuff.. though as the more and more fast food outlets are becoming common place we are getting fatter. What seperates us as yet from Amarica is portion size which is still much smaller. Anyone i have met who has gone to the states marvels at the "huge portions that you just couldn't eat"- Though i think if you get used to certain amounts of food you aclimatise and end up being able to eat more than you might have previously been able to to begin with. If people 'have' to apportion 'Blame', then you need to look at corporations not 'a' group of other people.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 6, 2009)

Susannah said:


> I would have to disagree with that. I used to work as an Early Childhood teacher with prodominantly Vietnamese and Chinese children and families. I was forever having my weight laughed about by family members, and other staff got their digs in too.



I have mixed feelings about this. At my heaviest, and especially prior to having a breast reduction surgery, I was REALLY gawked at in Malaysia and sometimes the interest (from the men) was an obvious interplay of "wow ... GAZOOOOOOOONDAS" with "... but she's so fat" (and frequently, I heard as much from some ignorant locals who assumed that the 'mat salleh' wouldn't bother to learn a bit of their language). I'm not so sure that Asian men are anymore accepting of fat than the typical American or European man is. 

Having said that, though -- the only extremely negative reactions that I got came from women, most particularly Chinese women. Not generalizing -- just stating what was an evident truth to me. Asian women seem, to me, to be very fat-phobic. I am now a very average U.S. size -- in fact, smaller than average (8-10) -- I am still very large in comparison, in Asia. Things are changing, though. Lately, I've seen more and more 'chubby' men and women and in the past few years, have even seen a lot of people that would be categorized as super-sized. I wonder how much of that is due to the advent of global marketing, the ever-increasing pace of our lives, and the ready availability of fast food. Cors, you know far better than I, as you grew up in Singapore ... so correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that 15 years ago, McDonalds/Roy Rogers/Dominos etc were few and far between. They are everywhere now.


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## MissStacie (Oct 6, 2009)

I hate to say that I'm LOVING the food over here, and I will tell you why.

Its natural and simple.

I had been over to Germany twice to visit Boris before I moved here a week or so ago, and EVERY time I came back to the States, I had lost 20-30lbs. Sure, mostly water weight, but weight nonetheless.

I found that not only is the food more natural and "right from the vine" so to speak, but they don't add a lot of salt/fat/sugar/preservatives to what they cook. One of my favorite meals is hard boiled eggs, boiled potatoes and this yummy green herb sauce which to ME is a cross between mayonaisse and a pesto, and is able to be poured instead of scooped, therefore controlling how much you use. 

Also, the availability of fast food is less here. Sure, we have McD's, Burger King, etc, but for us to get to them is rather difficult and not so "easy". Hell, I saw a Subway the other day and I almost had an orgasm, but it was about 1/2 hour away from our house! When I lived in NY, Had McD's, Quiznos, KFC, Wendys, Dunkin Donuts and 3 great pizza joints within 6 blocks of my apartment! That not only made it incredibly easy for me to get, but wreaked havoc on my calves and ankles with all the salt/water swelling in my legs.

As far as the treatment of the people? Well, yeah, I'm quite the anomaly here and it sometimes makes me feel like a freak because they certainly don't hide thier shock and awe of seeing a big blonde girl walking through the store. I want to ask them if they've never seen a fat person before, but I refuse to be as rude as they are when they scrutinize me. I just look as them as if to say "Yes? can I help you?" They quickly look away and chatter in German. 

Listen, all countries have their stereotypes about other people. We think Europeans can be stuck up and prissy; they think we are fat and stupid. Eh...it is what it is. The only thing that we can do is be a good example of our country and respectful to PEOPLE. While it is easy to be rude and call them out, all it does is feed their predetermined ideas about us Americans and I, for one, want to let them know how we REALLY are.

Ok..just my $.02

Stacie


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 6, 2009)

MissStacie said:


> I hate to say that I'm LOVING the food over here, and I will tell you why.
> 
> Its natural and simple.
> 
> ...



There hasn't been a time ever when I traveled to Europe where I didn't get so sick I had to be carried around. I have a tempramental stomach to begin with and age old problems with swelling that can be triggered by just about anything so a simple change in diet would wreak havoc at first. When I returned to the states though I was still sick some weeks later and a doctor told me that it was because the Europeans don't believe in pasteurization where as it has been the law here in the states for quite some time. I ate some cheese in Europe, same brand I've eaten before here in the states, and it was then that I got sick. The doc says my body didn't recognize some of the naturally occuring organisms present in the cheese because it is removed here in the states through pasteurization and that is probably what my issue was. But through my whole trip if I wasn't completely constipated it was the other way around. My system did not react well to the food and I hear that it takes months sometimes for some Americans to settle their constitutions in European cities. It doesn't happen to everyone but it's common enough. I lost weight though. Hooray.


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## Jes (Oct 6, 2009)

agouderia said:


> .... But - there is a flip side to this - in the US you also have a noticable segment of the population that is thinner and fitter into advanced age than in Europe. And Americans who are into a so-called healthy life-style are also much stricter, if not to say more rigid about dietary issues and weight, and the tolerance for people who are only slightly or modestly over the thin ideal can be shockingly low.



very true. I think americans are not seen by Europeans to put stock in moderation. We're all or nothing. Very sexualized culture OR no titties on the tv. Three hamburgers or 3 desserts or a lettuce leaf and a ricecake.

I can see their point.

We have a lot of religious zealotry here that I find baffling, personally. We're still hashing out reproductive issues. I don't understand it.


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## fat hiker (Oct 6, 2009)

Astarte said:


> I think that generalizing Europeans is as stupid as the generalization of Americans DharmaDave happened to overhear. There actually isn't such a thing as "European".
> 'snipped'
> I think we do have some prejudices about Americans here in Finland, too. Some of them may be correct, but most of them are just created by soap operas, advertisement and other hearsay. Many people, who have these prejudices, have most likely never met an American or visited United States.



Being a Canadian, and having lived and worked in both the USA and in Europe (the Czech Republic, to be precise) I have to agree wholeheartedly with your observation that the prejudices against Americans are "created by soap operas, advertisement and other hearsay". I taught English, and many of my students were convinced that what they saw in Hollywood movies was the way real Americans lived. Now, my USA friends, just consider that statement! My students were convinced, among other minutiae, that Americans NEVER locked their car doors - because nobody in movies did that! These were well educated adults, but their view of the USA came from movies and TV, and, well.... 

I have encountered Americans whose view of the rest of the world was equally 'odd'. I particularly remember one older couple who were touring Canada and wondered why Canada had its own money "when the rest of the world uses the American dollar"!!! Or people who thought that Sweden had fought on the German side in World War II, or that World War II hadn't started until the bombing at Pearl Harbour...

I would have to say, when you are living in a different culture, you have to ignore those who would trash your culture, unless you have the opportunity to befriend them or to educate them. After all, Republicans in the USA can be pretty demeaning to Democrats as well...


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## Gingembre (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm British and agree with Cors that Brits seem more anti-fat than some other European countries. I live in the same area as BigBellySSBBW and there's a lot of fat hate round here compared to other areas of the UK. I think other Europeans would fat-hate on the UK along with the US tho!

A lot of the stereotypical British view of American diet does come from movies & tv and that fact that McDonalds etc originated over there. However, i think a lot of people forget just how big & varied the USA is...as Europe is very varied too, so it's easy to stereotype if you dont know better. Some of my observations from visiting various places in the US:
- you have a hella lot of preservatives and chemicals in so much stuff. It was definitely harder in the average supermarket to find healthy option beyond raw fruit & veg. Particularly when i visited my sister in a small college town in TX - it was really hard to find something like frozen chicken that wasnt breaded or fried already. I dont for one minute assume that's the case everywhere though.
- there is a lot of fast food here, but i have never seen as many junk food outlets as I did in the US. It's EVERYWHERE...I'm sure i'd eat it more often if i had so much choice on my doorstep - here i'd have to make an effort to go get a McDonalds, or a hot chocolate & cake from starbucks, so more often than not i dont bother. Other places in Europe have even less chain stuff like that.
- portion size has varied where i've visited, as everywhere, but a lot of the time, American portion sizes are huge to me. I'm moving to America next year, and I am worried of putting on loads of weight coz i know what i'm like - i rarely leave a plate with food on it, regardless of the size of the plate. I'm gonna have to get some self control soon! 
- it's really hard to walk in a lot of the US - it's not pedestrian-friendly in a lot of places. Here I walk 1.5miles to work and then back a day but it seems in America that isnt possible a lot of the time? Europe also has much better public transport (easier to implement, i guess - we're all so crammed in over here, especially on this lil' island!) which means it's easier to use buses & trains to get places - which inevitably involves some walking at either end. In the US i guess you have to make more of an effort to exercise?

Apologies for the rather lengthy message (and the fact i've gone off track a bit) - I'd be interested in US views on what i've said...am I talking nonsense? Am i wrong? Or does that make sense?


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## thejuicyone (Oct 7, 2009)

A few friends of mine went to France a couple summers ago on a school trip and 2 of them were larger girls, and they came back raving about how amazing it was and how nice all the French men were to them. My friend Kenzie said that one guy came up to her at a bar and told her that it was refreshing to see a girl with meat on her bones and apparently they exchanged e-mails. I know that's just one example. But, just like with us Americans, not all Europeans are assholes.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 7, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> I'm British and agree with Cors that Brits seem more anti-fat than some other European countries. I live in the same area as BigBellySSBBW and there's a lot of fat hate round here compared to other areas of the UK. I think other Europeans would fat-hate on the UK along with the US tho!
> 
> A lot of the stereotypical British view of American diet does come from movies & tv and that fact that McDonalds etc originated over there. However, i think a lot of people forget just how big & varied the USA is...as Europe is very varied too, so it's easy to stereotype if you dont know better. Some of my observations from visiting various places in the US:
> - you have a hella lot of preservatives and chemicals in so much stuff. It was definitely harder in the average supermarket to find healthy option beyond raw fruit & veg. Particularly when i visited my sister in a small college town in TX - it was really hard to find something like frozen chicken that wasnt breaded or fried already. I dont for one minute assume that's the case everywhere though.
> ...



I've never been to Texas, but I'd like to I've never tried to buy frozen chicken in the states as I would buy it fresh then freeze it, lol, so I have no idea if it is available or not.

The portion sizes ARE huge in the US. Here at McDonalds a large meal is a sandwich or burger with a half filled medium (in the US) fries and a medium (in the US) drink...that tastes warm, flat and blah. In America, the fries are huge and over flowing...you can always find a few bonus fries at the bottom of the bag, the soda is enormous as it fizzy and yummy with loads of high fructose syrup...yummy, lol. However, the amount of "chips" you get in a large at a fish shop is about 5 times that of McDonalds...and they are chunky chips.

Did you know there is a Starbucks in Borders here? You can grab a handful of mags and books to flick through for free whilst you drink your drink i used to go there a lot, now I can't be bothered.

On walking to work....everything is so crammed in together here....you would be hard pressed to find people in America whole only live a mile or so away from work....it rarely happens. Most people have at least a 20 minute commute in the places I have lived in the US.

Public transport.....there may be more of it here....but it is freaking EXPENSIVE!!!! It's cheaper to drive, unless of course you have to pay the congestion charge in London.

You say you will gain weight there, but I dunno. I have gained weight here just from everything being so undoable. I can't walk for hours on end. There is never any parking near...so I don't go out. In America, parking is generally ok...unless you are in NYC or something lol. I hear New England is a lot like the UK. I miss going out with my friends. There in America there is usually something to do at all hours....even if that means walking around walmart. Also, fitness is stressed more in the US. Tons of gyms available. I think you will be fine

Enjoy it for me eh?


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## protuberance (Oct 7, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> So what does everybody think? What's the reason for this gross hypocrisy which I've observed on more than one occasion?



Stupidity and self-absorption.


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## Jes (Oct 7, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> I can't walk for hours on end. There is never any parking near...so I don't go out. In America, parking is generally ok...unless you are in NYC or something lol.?



Donni, can you get dropped off and picked up, and just wait for the driver to meet you?


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 7, 2009)

Jes said:


> Donni, can you get dropped off and picked up, and just wait for the driver to meet you?



Not usually. There are a lot of pedestrian only places and that's usually where the clubs, pubs and shops are


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## meaulnes (Oct 7, 2009)

I am European and my opinion: the Europeans should learn to be more tolerant in many cases!

Many Europeans even don´t know about the concept of BBW and SSBBW. Our continent need more education (I don´t joke)...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 7, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Not usually. There are a lot of pedestrian only places and that's usually where the clubs, pubs and shops are



When I'm at my worst the last thing I want to do is stand around outside shifting from foot to foot waiting for a ride. The only thing worse than walking is standing. When my joints are inflamed and my ankles swollen I want to be sitting by the fire with my feet up, a hot chocolate in one hand and the remote in the other. If not for work the only thing that would get me out of the house would be a fire.


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## Tooz (Oct 7, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> I hear New England is a lot like the UK.



In ways. I would say, especially in Boston/SE Mass/Rhode Island, you can see UK-esque things manifesting in the actual structure of the cities and towns. Most of the time, though, when people say New England is a lot like the UK, I think they mean other things, food types, mannerisms maybe? Not sure. I do know that in Bangor, there is a decent public transport. Not the best, though. For example, bf takes the bus from our place in Bangor straight to the campus in Orono, which is about 9 miles away. I, however, am 3.4 miles from my campus-- I'd have to change buses once for that, though. Possibly twice. Really? For 3.4 miles? I also have to go to Augusta once a week, which is 76 miles one way. Southern Maine might be different, but up here in REAL Maine p), a car is something you really need to have.

ETA: Growing up on Cape Cod, which is comparatively rural to say, Boston, I walked and took the bus everywhere. I took the bus to school in Hyannis daily. It did limit where I could go, not having a car, but overall I really did quite a bit without one.


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## superodalisque (Oct 7, 2009)

i don't think europeans are that far off base when it comes to the evidence we give them. i have to say that i do think american fast food is horrible--at least to me. traveling abroad really changed my eating habits for the better. i think its one of the main reasons my docs had the confidence to write in my file that i have "amazing health". i eat better fresher tastier food. i like fast food but i only have it on occassion. i don't have a tolerance at all anymore for macdonald's breakfast. i can't even keep it down anymore. that made me wonder what else that was bad for me that i had increased my tolerance for in the past. we do have a horrible lifestyle. what with the stress, lack of exercise, bad food, hardly any calming hobbies and bovine hormones and other toxins added to praticaly everything. it makes it much more difficult to be healthily fat. it makes it easier for us to become the depressed rude crabby people some of us tend to be especially when we travel.

the most visible americans that i see when i travel abroad, are often tired grouchy mean and sloppy. we are also often culturally underexposed, undereducated and socially inexperienced with a lot of things. i feel thats the main reason that europeans get disgusted. we are often inappropriately dressed. a Spaniard friend of mine says that americans always show up like arrogant saxon tourists in khakis like they are going on safari. they find it insulting because europe is not the bush and you don't need to carry your own water. you can drink thiers. in general they don't really get how casual we are. its just a big cultural misunderstanding. 

i'm a SSBBW and you hardly see the likes of me around but i've been treated very well on the whole. i don't underdress, ask rude questions and make rude and ignorant comparisons. i don't think its such a problem that we are fat. its just another way europeans think they can say that we are "out of control". we really do have bad manners and the worst thing is we don't even seem to know it. we are loud sloppy and complain too much about things like food being "different " when we travel. if we didn't spend so much time downing thier food and asking strangers rudely for a macdonald's without even saying hi when we travel a lot of europeans wouldn't have the impression that they do. 

europeans also don't have very much experience with fat people because in most countries it is hard to get this big what with all of the walking in the town squares,fresh produce, good meats and well seasoned food that you don't have to eat a ton of to satisfy your appetite. so for them its just another symptom of how thoughtless americans can be when it comes to themselves and everyone else. i don't agree with them but they can't help it if thats mostly what we give them to work with when we travel. but i think for the most part they use the "fat" adjective just to get an american's goat because they know its an insult we'd understand. i think they feel turnabout is fair play to a large extent. the fat american eating macdonald's is not so much a commentary on that act as it is the overall impression american's give that they are not good enough. its a symbol of how narrowminded we can be about being better than another country--not just different. its related to how negatively people feel about what we started in the middle east thats percieved as being mainly for our greedy over consuming oil interests here in this country. its a reference to the cultural colonization that people feel pressing down on them that they want and have some guilt about. we digust them in many ways but yet they still want to be like us in many ways and so do thier children. not only do we make them uncomfortable with us but we make them uncomfortable with themselves too.


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## sweet&fat (Oct 7, 2009)

Back in the late 1990s a Parisian friend of mine was telling me about how awful McDonald's was as evidenced by the fact that local bakers in Paris were trying to get a law passed that McDonald's not be allowed to sell croissants and baguettes because they were taking away so much business from local bakeries. He was using this as an example of how terrible Americans are, but I had to laugh at how anyone would EVER buy a croissant/baguette from McDonald's in PARIS of all places! French bread is so cheap and delicious! I don't think McDonald's is good food and it unfortunately has become a synecdoche for American food in general, but I've come to understand after having lived in Europe for three years that there's basically just a volatile love/hate relationship going on.


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## Tad (Oct 7, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> I had to laugh at how anyone would EVER buy a croissant/baguette from McDonald's in PARIS of all places! French bread is so cheap and delicious!



Quoted for truth!* But I guess that goes to show that cheap and convenient will trump quality--even a huge gap in quality--for a lot of people.

* In two years of living in France I went into McDonald's once, for the novelty of being able to buy a beer with my meal. Actually not quite true, while travelling on my own I also ate at one in Lausanne (in Switzerland) because the town was so freakishly expensive that I couldn't find anywhere else that I could afford to eat, and it was late enough that all the stores were shut so I couldn't just buy some bread and cheese or something. I felt deep shame, but hunger > shame.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Oct 7, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> If you tried to eat EVERYTHING on your plate at a typical American restaurant you'd explode. So you eat half, or a third, and you tell your server, "I want a go box, please." We Yankees are a kindly folk, and this is the restaurant's way of making sure you have something nice to eat for lunch tomorrow! :happy:
> 
> P.S.
> If you will post where you are moving to, there will probably be some dimmers around who will introduce you to their favorite restaurants so you can practice asking for a go box. :eat1:


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## superodalisque (Oct 7, 2009)

meaulnes said:


> I am European and my opinion: the Europeans should learn to be more tolerant in many cases!
> 
> Many Europeans even don´t know about the concept of BBW and SSBBW. Our continent need more education (I don´t joke)...



how are things coming in regards to handicapped accessability? if that were in place for a greatly aging europe it would also help BBWs BHMs and SSBBWs by default. it would make a great difference. i get the feeling that a lot of european BBWs and SSBBWs might be there but are basically housebound.


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## Gingembre (Oct 7, 2009)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> If you tried to eat EVERYTHING on your plate at a typical American restaurant you'd explode. So you eat half, or a third, and you tell your server, "I want a go box, please." We Yankees are a kindly folk, and this is the restaurant's way of making sure you have something nice to eat for lunch tomorrow! :happy:
> 
> P.S.
> If you will post where you are moving to, there will probably be some dimmers around who will introduce you to their favorite restaurants so you can practice asking for a go box. :eat1:



Ah yes, I have heard about these go boxes. I just need to practice putting down the fork and getting the box before i feel sick, rather than seeing every meal as a challenge :doh: 

I will probably be moving to Reston, North VA...not until about March, mind you. And i wont know anyone, so if there's any friendly dimmers in Reston/DC area - i will need friends, lol!


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## olwen (Oct 7, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> I actually agree with you Tracijo, that buying meat and vegetables and cooking it yourself is actually no more expensive, maybe cheaper than the quickie prepared meals. UNLESS, and it's a big unless, you purchase organic. If it's not organic, it has been either sprayed with pesticides, or pumped full of hormones. Still healthier than fast food, but still different than meat in Europe, say, where using growth hormones in livestock is banned. I don't know how prices are where you live, but here organic meat is up to triple the price of regular meat. Organic produce is usually double the price.
> 
> So, in my opinion, you can eat fairly healthy at low cost...but if you're truly trying to eat without any additives...you have to go organic, and that is expensive.



Sometimes organic food still has chemicals on it. Organic has more than one meaning apparently. I can only tell from the taste especially with meat. Truly organic meat is tougher and tends to have a gamey undertaste, which makes me realize just how many chemicals really are in our food - enough to completely change the texture and taste, and we're so used to eating it that food tastes "better" to us with the chemicals. It took me a while to get used to that flavor that organic meat has. Now I prefer it. Makes me wonder what food tasted like in oh say, 1909. I bet it was amazing and flavorful. True about the price tho. Luckly, here there are enough places selling organic food that one can search for "decent" prices.


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## olwen (Oct 8, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i don't think europeans are that far off base when it comes to the evidence we give them. i have to say that i do think american fast food is horrible--at least to me. traveling abroad really changed my eating habits for the better. i think its one of the main reasons my docs had the confidence to write in my file that i have "amazing health". i eat better fresher tastier food. i like fast food but i only have it on occassion. i don't have a tolerance at all anymore for macdonald's breakfast. i can't even keep it down anymore. that made me wonder what else that was bad for me that i had increased my tolerance for in the past. we do have a horrible lifestyle. what with the stress, lack of exercise, bad food, hardly any calming hobbies and bovine hormones and other toxins added to praticaly everything. it makes it much more difficult to be healthily fat. it makes it easier for us to become the depressed rude crabby people some of us tend to be especially when we travel.
> 
> the most visible americans that i see when i travel abroad, are often tired grouchy mean and sloppy. we are also often culturally underexposed, undereducated and socially inexperienced with a lot of things. i feel thats the main reason that europeans get disgusted. we are often inappropriately dressed. a Spaniard friend of mine says that americans always show up like arrogant saxon tourists in khakis like they are going on safari. they find it insulting because europe is not the bush and you don't need to carry your own water. you can drink thiers. in general they don't really get how casual we are. its just a big cultural misunderstanding.
> 
> ...



This post reminds me of a conversation I had with an intern a couple of days ago. She's black and british (which brought up a side discussion about our vastly different experiences of racism which is a conversation for another day) and I mentioned that I've never left the country and she asked me why and why American's don't travel more in general. It seemed like a strange question to me, but I said I can't afford to travel. She says well it's cheap and proceeds to tell me about how much it costs to get from one country to another in Europe and I nearly fell out of my chair. 40 euros to go from England to France. That's about 80 bucks here, and that wouldn't get me too far past Newark airport one state away. She didn't realize how expensive it was for Americans to travel even from one coast to another, let alone across the atlantic. After that conversation she started to understand why Americans seem so egocentric. It just costs too much to leave it, and it takes too much time to drive from one coast to the other. She thought this country was too big to fully comprehend and that we'd probably function better as a country if the US was smaller, and she's probably right about that.


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## MatthewB (Oct 8, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> Kids drank milk(admittedly, often coffee milk)


Coffee milk? Are you from Rhode Island? :happy:

Um... I agree, I guess; if my fiancee was being targeted by assholes due to her size, even though she takes hikes and the like, I'd probably tell them to knock it off before I take their hypocrisy on a bun and shove it down their throats.


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## Shosh (Oct 8, 2009)

I think Supero made some valid points. I think some Americans have a very insular mentality, namely that life outside of the US is of little significance, and that life begins and ends in America. Some really project that attutude whilst travelling overseas also. 
I am frankly suprised by how little some Americans know about other cultures and life beyond their shores.
This can all serve to alienate people of other cultures, namely Europeans in this instance. They may make judgements based on what they see and experience of Americans in their countries.

Having said all that some Australians especially young males can be the most boorish and ignorant people. They are frankly an embarrassment whilst travelling abroad. I have cringed at the behaviour I have seen them exibit, and am loath to acknowledge that they are Australians.


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## KuroBara (Oct 8, 2009)

DharmaDave said:


> I really can't imagine, BigBelly. It's hugely irritating and I'm not even fat. I doubt you'd have the same problem in Asia. A fat woman might evoke curiousity but I don't it would be the same sort of disgust that Europeans have. Every so often I've noticed Asian men checking out my fiancee.


 
Then I obviously need to come to China, because South Korea is not anything like that. I've heard dweji (pig) a little too often here for my taste, though mostly from other westerners rather than Koreans.


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## Cors (Oct 8, 2009)

KuroBara said:


> Then I obviously need to come to China, because South Korea is not anything like that. I've heard dweji (pig) a little too often here for my taste, though mostly from other westerners rather than Koreans.



I have been to China many times, admittedly as a tourist and it is not a fat-friendly place at all, though I imagine that they might be a little kinder to fat non-Asians. I speak fluent Mandarin and over there, I have heard some horribly unflattering things being said about my own body and that of my sister. All these insults were uttered by locals with such a huge smile on their faces that if I had not understood words like fat (&#32933;, pronounced fei) and pig (&#29482;, pronounced zhu), I would have thought that they were complimenting me.


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## nikola090 (Oct 8, 2009)

uhm, surely on Europe there is a difference sensation seeing fat people....and I'm sorry about it.
But also there is not so many fat people as on America....here in Italy it's difficult finding fat people that love her size, as it happens here on Dimensions


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## butch (Oct 8, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> Ah yes, I have heard about these go boxes. I just need to practice putting down the fork and getting the box before i feel sick, rather than seeing every meal as a challenge :doh:
> 
> I will probably be moving to Reston, North VA...not until about March, mind you. And i wont know anyone, so if there's any friendly dimmers in Reston/DC area - i will need friends, lol!



Well, I haven't spent much time in Reston (planned community, though, looks nice), but DC is wonderful, as is the larger DC area. What follows below has nothing to do with the quoted post, but as a native DC resident, I had to respond.





So, thinking about this thread, it seems like so much of the responses focus on body size as being something wholly influenced by portion sizes, fast food, sedentary lifestyles, industrialization, and that this is somehow 'American.'

Perhaps it isn't so much these things, as it is a change in our cultural acceptance of larger bodies? Even as it seems that we live in the 'obesity epidemic' fearmongering that makes it sound like our western cultures are becoming more fat intolerant, the rise in fat bodies seems like it is signaling a greater range of body sizes.

I don't know that I'm making myself clear, but when I think of how some Pacific Islander countries live, it seems like there must be more going on here. Places like Samoa have higher percentages of fat people than any western country, and their valuation of fat predates McDonald's, cars, HFCS, and 96 oz cokes. So, why are they fat, if not because they place a positive value on fatness? If this is so, then can we talk about cultural shifts in the west that subtly encourage fatness, even if on the surface it sounds like the west abhors fatness.

In other words, it isn't the food, the portion sizes, the lack of walking to and from work, but the fact that as a society we have somehow decided that it is OK to be fat. I don't know that I agree that our size is wholly due to food and exercise choices, but if it is, then we have for some reason as a society decided that it is OK to give in to our edible desires, and to eat what we want, when we want , in whatever portions we want. Seems very much in keeping with a world that tells us we can fight terrorism by going shopping or out to dinner, and yet only fat people have to deal with the stigma of living in a western capitalistic world that wants us to consume everything as much as possible, as long as someone else makes a buck off of it. That mindset is all around us, in the state of the economy, the state of health care, and so on, and yet only fat bodies have to be public markers of our collective guilt over our needs and desires and valuation of self control.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2009)

I can't really place my finger on what it is about these arguments that seems so peculiar. It strikes me as funny that a person can go to Japan for example, eat at every noodle house within a 15 mile radius while staying there and then come back to the states and declare, "This is how the Japanese stay thin!" Really? Do people honestly believe that the fare served in a bunch of restaurants is indicative of what people eat in the region? Why are there so many fat people around here? Oh I know! It's because there's a Jose McIntyre's nearby. Really? I mean, how does it go from an observation of the portion size of a meal portion agreed upon by the management of a restaurant chain to the way people who live in the region eat at home? Or that all the people who live in the area eat regularly at Jose McIntyre's? There is NO PROOF that this is even a legitimate chain of reasoning. People who live in town just simply aren't eating at The 99 Restaurant to the degree than a hungry traveler staying at the Super 8 across the street is eating there. Except for rare exceptions people just aren't eating out at restaurants at any degree that explains the presence of obesity or thinness in any society. The abundance of food and drink at an establishment is merely an advertising ploy that convinces consumers on holiday they are getting a value deal but only in so much as a restaurant won't go broke offering it. Once word catches on the portions get smaller. It's business logic and not socially relevant.


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## Fonzy (Oct 8, 2009)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> If you tried to eat EVERYTHING on your plate at a typical American restaurant you'd explode. So you eat half, or a third, and you tell your server, "I want a go box, please." We Yankees are a kindly folk, and this is the restaurant's way of making sure you have something nice to eat for lunch tomorrow! :happy:



I guess it depends where you go to eat! When I was over stateside during the summer I ate at Applebees a few times, lovely place by the way . But when I was down in Medford in OR I got a meal in one of them one evening. It was lovely nothing wrong with it, as far as I can remember it was a bourbon steak made using good ole JD. A few days later while back up around the Seattle neck of the woods I got the exact same meal in another Applebees however this time the, I think its a skillet, was full with veg and mash and the steak where as down in Medford it appeared as though the chef was afraid to give me my moneys worth lol as there was noticeably less of the same meal on the same type of skillet. There was no difference in the steak as far as I could tell. Anyway just a boring story about something I noticed! 



olwen said:


> She says well it's cheap and proceeds to tell me about how much it costs to get from one country to another in Europe and I nearly fell out of my chair. 40 euros to go from England to France. That's about 80 bucks here, and that wouldn't get me too far past Newark airport one state away. She didn't realize how expensive it was for Americans to travel even from one coast to another, let alone across the atlantic.



I don't want to get nit picky Olwen but 40 euros is 60 dollars. Surely its not that expensive to get a flight across the country from one coast to the other, are there no cheap small airlines that specialize in such journeys over there? As for driving across the country well I can totally understand a persons reluctance to do that, your country is huge, even with those great big highways an interstates that you guys have doing such a road trip would be a holiday in itself. However doing it over there would be considerably cheaper than doing it in Europe. From what I could tell you guys pay somewhere between 2.50 and 3 dollars for a gallon of petrol (gas), that Olwen is very cheap in my eyes at least. Here in Ireland most garages charge a slightly over the 1 euro mark for a litre of petrol at the moment. There is 3.785 litres in a gallon and.........., well anyway not to bore anyone with calculations but when you work it out and convert from euros to dollars it works out that we are paying a lil over 6 dollars for a gallon . Man we're gettin shafted over here lol  Now I've just based that on prices here in Ireland, maybe if anyone from mainland Europe could shed some light on the topic, like what are prices like in say Germany or France?


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## Tad (Oct 8, 2009)

Air rates are somewhat better in the US than in Canada, but I just did a quick check on travelocity for some Canadian flight costs. 

The cheapest flight in the next several months (only a few dates available) for travel from Ottawa, where I live, to Vancouver, where my brother lives, is just shy of $200 (can) one way, call it around 125-130 euro. Most flights I saw were about 25% more expensive. Of course, if I want to come home again, and take my wife and son with me both ways it would work out to over 750 euro. My cheapest flight to London, England, is about twice as expensive.

Driving by the shortest route to Vancouver would be about 4600km, something over a 2 day drive (the fastest drive, according to Google, would be to go a couple of hundred km farther and cut through the US to take advantage of their interstates (and cheaper gas!). Going through Canada would only take about three hundred dollars of gas in my little Toyota Echo, but given a practical max of twelve hours a day of driving, it would actually take at least four days, more like five, so would have to add meals and somewhere to sleep. 

Going to visit my cousin who lives on the east coast would only be a 1400km drive (only a little over twice the distance from Glasgow to London!), that could be done in one grueling 14+ hour day, but for my brother to go see my cousin would be 6000km.

Needless to say, we dont see each other very often.


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## Gingembre (Oct 8, 2009)

olwen said:


> This post reminds me of a conversation I had with an intern a couple of days ago. She's black and british (which brought up a side discussion about our vastly different experiences of racism which is a conversation for another day) and I mentioned that I've never left the country and she asked me why and why American's don't travel more in general. It seemed like a strange question to me, but I said I can't afford to travel. She says well it's cheap and proceeds to tell me about how much it costs to get from one country to another in Europe and I nearly fell out of my chair. 40 euros to go from England to France. That's about 80 bucks here, and that wouldn't get me too far past Newark airport one state away. She didn't realize how expensive it was for Americans to travel even from one coast to another, let alone across the atlantic. After that conversation she started to understand why Americans seem so egocentric. It just costs too much to leave it, and it takes too much time to drive from one coast to the other. She thought this country was too big to fully comprehend and that we'd probably function better as a country if the US was smaller, and she's probably right about that.



Completely off topic (sorry!) but it is cheaper to hop around Europe, it's true. When I went to the USA recently, I also discovered that probably one reason why a lot of Americans dont seem to travel much is that y'all get, like, NO annual leave. It's CRAZY (in a bad way!). I work for a small business and we all get 22 days paid leave a year, plus holidays. That's about average here, where the minimum paid leave is 28 days (including holidays, and days dictated by your employer, e.g., due to office closure around xmas or whatever).


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## Tad (Oct 8, 2009)

Gingembre, you are entirely lovely, but if I could give out anti-rep I just might have done it, for the reminder of the vacation gap between North America and Europe. 

The minimum by law here (Canada) is two weeks (ten days) a year plus statutory holidays (of which we don't have as many as you do). In addition for part time workers employers can just pay them the vacation time, so most part time workers (even ones putting multiple part time jobs together to more than full time hours) get no vacation (unless they manage to trade off shifts with people).

Not so long ago it wasn't quite so bad if you were full time, for example in my industry most places gave you a third week (15 days) after two or three years, and four weeks (20 days) after ten years....but these days not many people seem to stay with one employer for ten years, so that if you have that much vacation it is because you've negotiated it.

Thank goodness I have a kind boss who doesn't mind me taking off for a few hours to take care of family stuff, so long as I get work done overall, so I don't end up burning up vacation taking our son to the orthodontist or things like that.


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## lypeaches (Oct 8, 2009)

Susannah said:


> I think Supero made some valid points. I think some Americans have a very insular mentality, namely that life outside of the US is of little significance, and that life begins and ends in America. Some really project that attutude whilst travelling overseas also.
> I am frankly suprised by how little some Americans know about other cultures and life beyond their shores.
> This can all serve to alienate people of other cultures, namely Europeans in this instance. They may make judgements based on what they see and experience of Americans in their countries.
> 
> .



I totally agree...both with Supero and Susannah. Europeans are lucky in a sense...they get to live literally rubbing elbows with other cultures. Americans are forced to do some serious travelling in order to get just a taste of another country. 

FWIW, Americans have been pretty much raised from birth being told constantly that "America is the greatest country in the world". And there's rarely much explanation given as to WHY that is. I love the Declaration of Independence...it is so moving and beautiful. I love the idea of America. I choose to live here, although I'm also a Canadian citizen. But I wish that all Americans realized that not EVERYTHING about America is best. Many do, but unfortunately not all.


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## superodalisque (Oct 8, 2009)

olwen said:


> This post reminds me of a conversation I had with an intern a couple of days ago. She's black and british (which brought up a side discussion about our vastly different experiences of racism which is a conversation for another day) and I mentioned that I've never left the country and she asked me why and why American's don't travel more in general. It seemed like a strange question to me, but I said I can't afford to travel. She says well it's cheap and proceeds to tell me about how much it costs to get from one country to another in Europe and I nearly fell out of my chair. 40 euros to go from England to France. That's about 80 bucks here, and that wouldn't get me too far past Newark airport one state away. She didn't realize how expensive it was for Americans to travel even from one coast to another, let alone across the atlantic. After that conversation she started to understand why Americans seem so egocentric. It just costs too much to leave it, and it takes too much time to drive from one coast to the other. She thought this country was too big to fully comprehend and that we'd probably function better as a country if the US was smaller, and she's probably right about that.



your right. europeans have no concept of how huge the US is geographically. but people don't have to have a lot of money or a smaller country to crack open a book every once in a while . besides that we have so much diversity within our borders that you'd think we'd be more flexible than we are. notwithstanding that it also doesn't account for people doing things abroad that they don't do at home because they know its inappropriate. most courtesy is universal.

i kind of think there are a lot of people traveling who are intimidated by how europeans live just as european are intimidated by how we live. everyone thinks they are the best and when they are faced with the idea that another culture has something that might even be better in quite a few ways we sometimes get intimidated and take it out on each other. i really think its the threat to personal assumptions that get people. i see the same thing when i go to africa. a lot of african americans go and complain. mainly because they can see that maybe they could enjoy and respect it in ways that they might never hope to in america. no one there makes any automatic assumptions based on your being black. its not a big deal if the president looks like you--in fact everyone in power does. the cost of living is very low. and, even though things are difficult in a lot of ways other things are a lot easier. its safer. it more intellictual. moral compass is much more important. people value the family more on the whole. africans on the other hand learn that africans americans are much wealthier and better off materially when they come here. they covet the organized nature of american governance. the ease of basic living here in terms of convenienance in that sense is incomparable. african americans are treated better and more well respected by africa's old european colonizers. so basically everyone is reacting to a lot of conflicting emotions about thier personal assumptions v reality that don't add up. when people's ideas are challenged they get hostile. it reminds me of when the olympics came to atlanta and european media was complaining about the suburban sprawl here and how everything seemed macdonalized. right after we saw a huge jump in our european population and they are still here. why? because even though we are different and need to improve a lot of things our way of living is very attractive too. i think the truth is people like to try and attack before they get attacked. often people feel insecure in strange places where they think others are better off in some way.


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 8, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> Completely off topic (sorry!) but it is cheaper to hop around Europe, it's true. When I went to the USA recently, I also discovered that probably one reason why a lot of Americans dont seem to travel much is that y'all get, like, NO annual leave. It's CRAZY (in a bad way!). I work for a small business and we all get 22 days paid leave a year, plus holidays. That's about average here, where the minimum paid leave is 28 days (including holidays, and days dictated by your employer, e.g., due to office closure around xmas or whatever).



That's very true. You damned lucky Europeans! *shakes fist*

However, there are still those of us who manage to travel. I really feel like it's the same with most things - if you have an interest in cultures and atmospheres different than your own, you will branch out. You will save and make preparations or just take a train ride to Greek, China towns, etc. Keep an open mind and learn a thing or two. 

My uncle's wife is the epitome of ignorant American when traveling abroad. It's embarassing to be seen with her alot of times. She's not culturally sensitive at all, even the most patient and accomodating wait staff thinks she's too much. She doesn't take into account social norms/mores differing from locale to locale; has a real "us" vs "them/the heathens" kinda attitude that's pretty draining and unpleasant. I remember being on a Mediterranean cruise with her and all she could do was complain about how smelly she thought the Europeans were, of course doing so at the top of her lungs. Then having the nerve to look at the rest of the family as if _we_ were the ones with the problem. 

When I'm abroad I almost want to apologize for the missteps/ignorance of other foreigners because I just hate how it looks. It's sad too, that the most uncouth Americans are what others will remember alot of times (or at least that's what it feels like), not the gracious open minded traveler. 

Hey is there a book on travel etiquette when overseas? Think it might come in handy for a few folks I know.


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## Tad (Oct 8, 2009)

FWIW, Ash, any time you have a lot of tourists from one place, some of them will seem ignorant, annoying, and so forth. The Italians complain about the Germans invading the beaches of the Adriatic, the southern french complain about the northern french, I've heard that in Maine they complain about the tourists from Quebec, and so on.

It just happens that as a large and wealthy nation, a lot of places get a lot of tourists from the US, so they make an easy target, IMO.


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## olwen (Oct 8, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> your right. europeans have no concept of how huge the US is geographically. but people don't have to have a lot of money or a smaller country to crack open a book every once in a while . besides that we have so much diversity within our borders that you'd think we'd be more flexible than we are. notwithstanding that it also doesn't account for people doing things abroad that they don't do at home because they know its inappropriate. most courtesy is universal.
> 
> i kind of think there are a lot of people traveling who are intimidated by how europeans live just as european are intimidated by how we live. everyone thinks they are the best and when they are faced with the idea that another culture has something that might even be better in quite a few ways we sometimes get intimidated and take it out on each other. i really think its the threat to personal assumptions that get people. i see the same thing when i go to africa. a lot of african americans go and complain. mainly because they can see that maybe they could enjoy and respect it in ways that they might never hope to in america. no one there makes any automatic assumptions based on your being black. its not a big deal if the president looks like you--in fact everyone in power does. the cost of living is very low. and, even though things are difficult in a lot of ways other things are a lot easier. its safer. it more intellictual. moral compass is much more important. people value the family more on the whole. africans on the other hand learn that africans americans are much wealthier and better off materially when they come here. they covet the organized nature of american governance. the ease of basic living here in terms of convenienance in that sense is incomparable. african americans are treated better and more well respected by africa's old european colonizers. so basically everyone is reacting to a lot of conflicting emotions about thier personal assumptions v reality that don't add up. when people's ideas are challenged they get hostile. it reminds me of when the olympics came to atlanta and european media was complaining about the suburban sprawl here and how everything seemed macdonalized. right after we saw a huge jump in our european population and they are still here. why? because even though we are different and need to improve a lot of things our way of living is very attractive too. i think the truth is people like to try and attack before they get attacked. often people feel insecure in strange places where they think others are better off in some way.



I think you are right about your assessment, but I can see how some of that applies to this country as well. There are large swaths of the country that are quite homogenous in terms of population. I was floored when I found out about that. I experience a bit of culture shock whenever I leave NYC. The rest of the country is not like it is here, and I'm always struck by the lack of diversity in some places. It makes sense tho as to why. Everything is sooo spread out here. If can take 2-3 hours to drive to the next largest city in some places. Why leave your county or your township if everything you need is there? I've noticed in Shreveport, Louisiana, the only place where races really mingle is at the mall or in the area by the casino. It's weird to me. I'm used to seeing diversity everywhere I go. So it kind of makes sense that so many americans might not be curious about other cultures. Opportunities to experience other cultures could be quite limited. Some people could react with fear if their only exprience of other cultures comes from the teevee while others could welcome you with open arms. I've experienced both. 

That everything is so spread out affects what people eat too. If it takes too long for fresh seafood to get to a land locked area then I can imagine that area wouldn't do seafood too well, but they would do beef really really well. This is actually something I've been told by people who live in the midwest. 

Then on the other hand there are people who grew up here who prefer the food from their own culture despite having access to a myriad cuisines, and they still stick to and prefer their mother's cooking to the point where they really are afraid to try something different. I can't even begin to talk about the shock and dismay I've experienced trying to get some people to try vietnamese food. I love the stuff. Once I went to dinner with someone who was so afraid to try anything off the menu that she only got chicken satay as an appetizer cause it was all she deemed safe to eat. Some of the other people offered for her to taste their dishes but she just couldn't do it, so she starved while the rest of us ate well and had the nerve to complain about being hungry. All I could do was shake my head, and I made a mental note to never eat dinner with her ever again. Not experiencing diversity when you are surrounded by it is worse than not experiencing it because it's not around you, IMO.


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## AuntHen (Oct 9, 2009)

wait wait wait... American food is not soley "fast food". This is a massive f****** melting pot!! I was born and raised here and my favorite food to make and eat out is authentic Mexican (which is not processed... beans, rice, pico de gallo, meat etc). While restaraunt portion sizes may be bigger than other countries, have you ever eaten at someone's home either IN a different country or FROM a different country? They will stuff you silly and it is considered RUDE to refuse! This whole "American" thing is an ignorant stereotype and I for one am sick of it! 

More people I know here eat sushi than they do boring ol' McD's 

Now I will say that alot of people do not get out and move, but people (the younger generations especially) all over the world are guilty of this, with all the video games and technology. I do wish there were more trains and public transportation access in more states. I loved living in Japan and walking to the train and riding their buses.

In the 70's and early 80's we grew up on white bread and Kool-Aid and yet were not fat kids... why?? we rode bikes, ran all over the neighborhoods and were just hyper busy little brats! It's not the food but the sedentary lifestyles that help make people fat or fatter. My 2 cents


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## AuntHen (Oct 9, 2009)

and to add..a little slender co-worker of mine, never exercises and always eats processed, lack of nutrient foods every day. I hate her food...so bland and boring. She eats more fast food in a week than I eat in 2 years! Her son lives on powdered donuts and sugar filled juice. Yet I am the fat one! Take that Europe!! :eat1:


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## Santaclear (Oct 9, 2009)

fat9276 said:


> It's not the food but the sedentary lifestyles that help make people fat or fatter. My 2 cents



I think it IS the food (it's everywhere, didn't used to be), the sedentary lifestyles and most importantly that corporate marketing has become ruthlessly efficient (and they're getting better at it all the time.)


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## AuntHen (Oct 9, 2009)

Santaclear said:


> I think it IS the food (it's everywhere, didn't used to be), the sedentary lifestyles and most importantly that corporate marketing has become ruthlessly efficient (and they're getting better at it all the time.)



food has always been everywhere throughout time.. how long it took to prepare it and how processed it was, is a different matter. I would say from 1950-1980 there was a big boom in "white flour" and "processed" products, yet a majority of the people were not fat. And french people (along with other european countries) eat a ton of bread made with "white flour" every day-all day...


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## MissStacie (Oct 9, 2009)

I've read in more than one post about Europeans not understanding or knowing how to treat/handle the supersize population and I've had a perfect example just the other day.

We went on a boat trip up the Rhien and the mobility factor was great...ramps and minimal stairs unless |I wanted to go upstairs and out on the deck, and then the stairs were there, but with rails and very sturdy. No problems, totally enjoyable boat trip. Then comes the train ride back from Koblenz to Rauenthal.

Boris had warned me that he wasn't sure about the "step" to get on/off the train, but that he knew that there was a handicap ramp for wheelchairs, etc, if we needed it. Me, I'm too fucking proud to use something unless absolutely necessary, even it if it harder, but nonetheless I was a little anxious all day.

So, we get to the trainstation, and there are 3 steps to get into the train, and they are like pool steps...almost completely vertical with only those two bars to hold on to. Well, going up with my hubby giving a me a gentle shove was ok...but I knew getting off would be terrible as the range of motion in my knees is not what it used to be.

So, we get to the car with the lift and its out of order. Fuck. So, we go to another one, and the train lady says that if they go and get the ramp, they won't make thier next stop. \WTF? I mean, what would they have done if there had been more than one person that needed it??? So, I attempt to go down backwards. and I freaked out because I couldn't judge how far down the platform was. After a few minutes, I turned myself around, sat on the top stop and just slid down. I was embarrassed, scared and so damned angry that I just cried. Now, the train lady was soooo nice, and tried to help, but I was just too scared to trust someone who doesn't know how to handle the supersized person. Boris was irritated because he knows that in the States, there is no way that someone would be made to sit down on the dirty stairs and slide down on their arse. It was an experience, and maybe she will say something to the railway about having the wheelchair thing more readily available.

I really think that other countries just need to be educated on people with disabilities, fat or other mobility issues. That is what I see is lacking here, even in the short period of time I've been here, and Boris agrees that they just don't see it that often, and if they do, the people affected don't "rise up" and make sure their issues are heard.

Hmmmm...maybe I should advocate for all of the fat |Europeans|???


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## ladle (Oct 9, 2009)

just my two NZ cents as well...I don't think it's a European view, it's kind of a worldly view. I have lived in NZ, Australia and Japan and I think the same views exist there as well. We see mainly American tourists here for whom the stereotype is Big and Loud and Rude. Yet on my visit to the US I encountered nothing but pleasantries and the most polite group of people I've ever met.
Stereotypes are just that.

From a Kiwi who shags sheep and has hairy feet, typing this from my cousin's house cos 80% of us still don't have elec-ma-tricity.


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## littlefairywren (Oct 9, 2009)

ladle said:


> just my two NZ cents as well...I don't think it's a European view, it's kind of a worldly view. I have lived in NZ, Australia and Japan and I think the same views exist there as well. We see mainly American tourists here for whom the stereotype is Big and Loud and Rude. Yet on my visit to the US I encountered nothing but pleasantries and the most polite group of people I've ever met.
> Stereotypes are just that.
> 
> From a Kiwi who shags sheep and has hairy feet, typing this from my cousin's house cos 80% of us still don't have elec-ma-tricity.



LOL...Since when do Kiwi's have hairy feet? I know all about the sheep though


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## ladle (Oct 9, 2009)

littlefairywren said:


> LOL...Since when do Kiwi's have hairy feet? I know all about the sheep though



Well sorry, not all of us have hairy feet...just the ones chasing the ring


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## littlefairywren (Oct 9, 2009)

ladle said:


> Well sorry, not all of us have hairy feet...just the ones chasing the ring



Ha, I forgot about the little ones with hairy feet.....precious


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## mergirl (Oct 10, 2009)

butch said:


> In other words, it isn't the food, the portion sizes, the lack of walking to and from work, but the fact that as a society we have somehow decided that it is OK to be fat. I don't know that I agree that our size is wholly due to food and exercise choices, but if it is, then we have for some reason as a society decided that it is OK to give in to our edible desires, and to eat what we want, when we want , in whatever portions we want.



It seems strange that the Uk is the fattest nation in Europe and we have embraced the fast food culture more than any other country in Europe. If certain societies decide (subconciously or not) that it is ok to be fat, what would be the factors in that decision? I would say that the media are out of the equation right away, as i flicked through a 'womans gossip mag' the other day and it was full of skinny people and articles about how we want to look like them and how to do so. I do think that once a certain number of a society become fatter the rest lead by example, like a rolling effect, though that wouldn't explain the 'decision' in the first place. 
Its an interesting statement though and i would love to believe it! :happy:


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## meaulnes (Oct 10, 2009)

Well, I think the medias are really guilty in this case. There could be many more fat-friendly societies around the world today. But the influence of medias is going to the oppostie direction...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 10, 2009)

MissStacie said:


> I've read in more than one post about Europeans not understanding or knowing how to treat/handle the supersize population and I've had a perfect example just the other day.
> 
> We went on a boat trip up the Rhien and the mobility factor was great...ramps and minimal stairs unless |I wanted to go upstairs and out on the deck, and then the stairs were there, but with rails and very sturdy. No problems, totally enjoyable boat trip. Then comes the train ride back from Koblenz to Rauenthal.
> 
> ...



Hey, somebody did it for the fat Americans.  I think this every time I go to a hospital and there are exam gowns in size 6x or there is some amenity available someplace or knowledgeable service person where I didn't expect there to be one. I know that somebody came this way before and fell on their ass, cried and wailed and everybody felt horrible and exposed for not having prepared for just such an occasion and took steps to make sure it didn't happen again. So if you ever fell on your ass, slid down a flight of dirty stairs or gone ass backwards out of a tiny doorway, thanks. lol :happy:


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## Dr. Feelgood (Oct 10, 2009)

ladle said:


> We see mainly American tourists here for whom the stereotype is Big and Loud and Rude. Yet on my visit to the US I encountered nothing but pleasantries and the most polite group of people I've ever met.



I suspect some people become more aggressive when they're nervous -- i.e., out of their comfort zone.


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## sweet&fat (Oct 10, 2009)

As a side note, and as an American who has lived in Europe and suffered hearing repeated complaints about every fat/loud/rude American stereotype there is (even though I try to blend wherever I go), I just want to note that although many American tourists are indeed fat/loud/rude, the USA does not have the exclusive patent on obnoxious tourists, or even fat ones. Ever seen German tourists on Mallorca or in Turkey for example? They aren't the most culturally considerate bunch to say the least. Not to pick on them- my point is that many people can be rude and thoughtless, especially when in large tour groups! I'm an advocate of trying to speak the local language or at least say the few words you can, but I have seen firsthand that knowing the local language does not automatically make you a gracious or polite tourist.


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## Jes (Oct 10, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> Ever seen German tourists on Mallorca or in Turkey for example? They aren't the most culturally considerate bunch to say the least. .



Or Russians vacationing in Egypt, on the Red Sea? Oh, lord jesus, talk about bad behavior. New money, tsk tsk.


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## sweet&fat (Oct 10, 2009)

Jes said:


> Or Russians vacationing in Egypt, on the Red Sea? Oh, lord jesus, talk about bad behavior. New money, tsk tsk.



Why Jes, are you making fun of my argument?


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## AuntHen (Oct 10, 2009)

Jes said:


> Or Russians vacationing in Egypt, on the Red Sea? Oh, lord jesus, talk about bad behavior. New money, tsk tsk.



hahahaha... oh man this made me laugh as I know some Russians and they are quite "brusk"  Oh and what is up with Brazil??... they are all over theme parks here and will literally run you over. They travel in herds and do not seem to know what "excuse me" is! (albeit most of them are skinny and wearing booty shorts)


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## mergirl (Oct 10, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> As a side note, and as an American who has lived in Europe and suffered hearing repeated complaints about every fat/loud/rude American stereotype there is ........



Arrogant. You forgot Arrogant.
Also, can i have 10p for some booze please? :happy:


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## mergirl (Oct 10, 2009)

Jes said:


> Or Russians vacationing in Egypt, on the Red Sea? Oh, lord jesus, talk about bad behavior. New money, tsk tsk.


I used to work in a russian resteraunt and i always thought the chef was shouting at me because of her accent and way. She would bark "Put the grass in the sea... Put the grass in the sea" Which i worked out was "wash the lettuce".


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## sweet&fat (Oct 10, 2009)

sigh... never mind!  And no, no money for booze unfortunately- I need it for gas money so I can drive down the block to get McDonald's.


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## AuntHen (Oct 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Arrogant. You forgot Arrogant.
> Also, can i have 10p for some booze please? :happy:



I thought that was the french who also wear their clothes more than 2 days in a row 

hahaha.. there are so many stereotypes.. the Irish & Scots are said to be always drinking and fighting, English have bad teeth and don't bathe, Scandanavians smoke pot and go to "legalized" brothels all the time, the Japanese are porn freaks... I have heard it all and this is only the short list!


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## MissStacie (Oct 10, 2009)

Totally true!

When I was waiting for Boris to come back from parking the car, I was sitting along this wall and this old woman, and I do mean old, like 75-80 with scarf around head, unmatched clothes walked towards me, looked me up and down, and her lip actually curled in disgust! I smiled at her and said hello, and she just continued to look at me, like I was supposed to apologize or something for taking up so much space? 

Another side note, its not only Americans that are loud/rude/obnoxious. I was on the boat with a good number of nationalities and I'll tell you, Asian people can be the worst, talking loud, laughing maniacally and just walking right into you and then looking at YOU like you were in the wrong place!

Eh..whatever...why can't we all just get along??? lol




sweet&fat said:


> As a side note, and as an American who has lived in Europe and suffered hearing repeated complaints about every fat/loud/rude American stereotype there is (even though I try to blend wherever I go), I just want to note that although many American tourists are indeed fat/loud/rude, the USA does not have the exclusive patent on obnoxious tourists, or even fat ones. Ever seen German tourists on Mallorca or in Turkey for example? They aren't the most culturally considerate bunch to say the least. Not to pick on them- my point is that many people can be rude and thoughtless, especially when in large tour groups! I'm an advocate of trying to speak the local language or at least say the few words you can, but I have seen firsthand that knowing the local language does not automatically make you a gracious or polite tourist.


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## mergirl (Oct 10, 2009)

fat9276 said:


> I thought that was the french who also wear their clothes more than 2 days in a row
> 
> hahaha.. there are so many stereotypes.. the Irish & Scots are said to be always drinking and fighting, English have bad teeth and don't bathe, Scandanavians smoke pot and go to "legalized" brothels all the time, the Japanese are porn freaks... I have heard it all and this is only the short list!


yes.. we are drunk and tight with money.. hence me wanting 10p for booze!! lmao.


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## James (Oct 10, 2009)

I do have a lot of thoughts on this subject but I'll just chip in with one for now... basically I think that one of the key differences between the US and American eating patterns is linked to policies on their respective food systems. The American food system is heavily subsidized in certain areas, with the result that market values for commodity crops are very low. This means that in order to survive economically, farmers must produce enormous volumes of food to meet the necessary economics of scale that the distorted American market demands. Overproduction, in this system, becomes both a necessity and trap for farmers who depend on government subsidy to make any money but whose over-producing practices are also the reason why the markets for commodity crops are so undervalued. 

So anyway, you have a system that makes lots and lots of low cost corn. It is so absurdly cheap that this has inspired new uses for it like high fructose corn syrup and intensive corn-fed beef farms. This whole system produces sugar, carbohydrate and meat containing products in an incredibly cheap way. Its also a hugely damaging way, in environmental and social terms. The fact that this system contributes to making people fat is not something I have a problem with but the fact that the food is unhealthy and has so many 'external' environmental and social costs that are not considered in the sale price makes me consider the American food system to be thoroughly broken and maybe as much in need of an overhaul as its health system?


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## Gingembre (Oct 10, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Did you know there is a Starbucks in Borders here? You can grab a handful of mags and books to flick through for free whilst you drink your drink i used to go there a lot, now I can't be bothered.
> 
> Enjoy it for me eh?



Sorry Donni, I completely missed this. Thanks for the reminder about Borders, I totally forgot there was Starbucks in there...I went today and enjoyed reading the fat issue of Diva over a chai tea latte. Yays.

And enjoy it for you I will...hell knows I have spent too long in THIS town!



fat9276 said:


> English have bad teeth and don't bathe



We don't have to bathe - the frequent rain washes us


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## Shosh (Oct 10, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> As a side note, and as an American who has lived in Europe and suffered hearing repeated complaints about every fat/loud/rude American stereotype there is (even though I try to blend wherever I go), I just want to note that although many American tourists are indeed fat/loud/rude, the USA does not have the exclusive patent on obnoxious tourists, or even fat ones. Ever seen German tourists on Mallorca or in Turkey for example? They aren't the most culturally considerate bunch to say the least. Not to pick on them- my point is that many people can be rude and thoughtless, especially when in large tour groups! I'm an advocate of trying to speak the local language or at least say the few words you can, but I have seen firsthand that knowing the local language does not automatically make you a gracious or polite tourist.



True! Young Australian males can be the absolute worst uncultured pigs.


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## ladle (Oct 10, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> As a side note, and as an American who has lived in Europe and suffered hearing repeated complaints about every fat/loud/rude American stereotype there is (even though I try to blend wherever I go), I just want to note that although many American tourists are indeed fat/loud/rude, the USA does not have the exclusive patent on obnoxious tourists, or even fat ones. Ever seen German tourists on Mallorca or in Turkey for example? They aren't the most culturally considerate bunch to say the least. Not to pick on them- my point is that many people can be rude and thoughtless, especially when in large tour groups! I'm an advocate of trying to speak the local language or at least say the few words you can, but I have seen firsthand that knowing the local language does not automatically make you a gracious or polite tourist.



...and Americans don't have the patent on McDonalds either....
What's this?...they do have the original patents?
My mistake...
:eat2:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 10, 2009)

Uncultured pigs are what I usually end up dating.....how far it is to Australia? :wubu: 



Nah, I will just do my usual thing and hang around the prison/jailhouse.......:batting:


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## Jes (Oct 11, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> Why Jes, are you making fun of my argument?



Are you kidding me? I've never seen such boorish yelling in all my days. And the meat. Thin, thin women, eating plates and plates full of meat. No bread, no veg, just platters of meat. Seriously. Our drivers (we were on a desert safari) told us quietly that we should hit the buffet before the Russians, or it'd be cleared out. I couldn't imagine that would be true. There weren't that many of them. And, since we were eating in a bedouin tent, sitting in the sand (which was as lovely as it sounds, it really was), I didn't want to take a full plate of food. I figured I'd go back.

There was no going back, let me tell you.

I don't know how 5 russians (4 of whom were young women, as I recall) ate that much meat, but every single platter was clean.


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## Jes (Oct 11, 2009)

James said:


> So anyway, you have a system that makes lots and lots of low cost corn. It is so absurdly cheap that this has inspired new uses for it like high fructose corn syrup and intensive corn-fed beef farms. This whole system produces sugar, carbohydrate and meat containing products in an incredibly cheap way. ?



Dear James.
I have already mentioned the corn.
Thank you.


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## superodalisque (Oct 11, 2009)

"Food Incorprated: The Movie" is an indie film you might want to check out related to this thread
its very informative about exactly whats at risk and why people hold such distaste for american food abroad. it really isn't just whimsy: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqQVll-MP3I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoRNnCoEx-k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWO67pRgiGU&feature=related

Food Inc on NOWBS http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/523/

Food Inc full video: http://movie25.com/food-inc-2008_5480.html


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## superodalisque (Oct 11, 2009)

this makes me think its not so much of a problem that americans are fat but exactly what we are eating to get that way. its easy to attribute bad health to fat. but maybe it might be more honest to say that fat stores all of the toxins that we are exposed to in our food and thats why we might get sick more often. we already know that the additives cause cancer auto immune disease attack the function of the joints, lymph, endocrine,digestive and circulatory systems. it makes you wonder about the higher morbidity rate for extremely thin people being higher than for extremely fat people anyway. if our food was better would there even be any comparison at all? would we be much healthier than the thin in many ways?


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## ShazzyBombshell (Oct 11, 2009)

Because simply they think that they have the right too belittle other people and other countries! 

Being British myself I know we arent as fat friendly as other countries and it makes me sad that people in this country think that if you arent thin you are some kind of freak


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## SparkGirl (Oct 11, 2009)

_*There are so many great and interesting points/stories in this thread, it inspires so many comments from me, but since nobody likes to read my horribly long posts, I'll keep mine short(er). As far as Europe, I've only been to Ireland, so I'll talk about my experiences there. My tour group traveled by bus everywhere, and I fell pretty badly a couple of times getting off the bus. The bus didn't have a handicap ramp (and it never would have occurred to me to even use it). The narrow and steep stairway caused me to fall flat on my face the first time, and on my bum the second. I'm not the type to cry, and it never even occurred to me to be embarrassed, so I just laughed hysterically. I think myself and my big bum are quite hysterical, so if anyone laughed at me, I probably just looked at it for what it was: The big butt girl fell down, how funny (and it really was!). Although I honestly don't remember anyone laughing at me and I don't think anyone really noticed. Maybe because I was laughing and didn't think much of it, myself. 

Now don't get me wrong on the next statement, just look at it for what it is, my own experience. When there is an obstacle that makes traveling, or activities difficult, I am usually very creative in finding a way to facilitate my experience. I have found that when you're very nice to people and ask for help, they're usually pretty willing to oblige. I figure that my weight is obvious and people are going to know that I need help sometimes, but out of respect, they will usually wait for me to ask. That is all that is needed sometimes, simply asking. Now as far as that that poor horse, I decided to be realistic and KIND, and spare his poor back! *_


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## superodalisque (Oct 11, 2009)

sweet&fat said:


> As a side note, and as an American who has lived in Europe and suffered hearing repeated complaints about every fat/loud/rude American stereotype there is (even though I try to blend wherever I go), I just want to note that although many American tourists are indeed fat/loud/rude, the USA does not have the exclusive patent on obnoxious tourists, or even fat ones. Ever seen German tourists on Mallorca or in Turkey for example? They aren't the most culturally considerate bunch to say the least. Not to pick on them- my point is that many people can be rude and thoughtless, especially when in large tour groups! I'm an advocate of trying to speak the local language or at least say the few words you can, but I have seen firsthand that knowing the local language does not automatically make you a gracious or polite tourist.



i can agree with this. everybody can pretty much be a putz when they travel. true story: an FA friend of mine was discussing my trip to japan with me. i was telling him how some like to rub your belly for luck and take good natured pix with you because you are big. it didn't bother me because they didn't make me feel ugly or gruesome --just different and a totally interesting pleasure. i'm ok with that. i know a lot of people would hate it. well, my FA buddy got very upset and ranted about how rude this was. i thought it was funny because the very same guy had snuck pix of my booty while i was sitting next to a very thin guy spreading on a chair. i've also seen him rub bellies when he can--just not for luck. its interesting how we are disgusted by what other people do and forget what we do ourselves. it still makes me laugh just thinking about the irony.


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## Waikikian (Oct 11, 2009)

The average American did not choose to eat all those fast food meals, but fell into the habit of eating on the run because the global economy now obliges people to work longer hours and the growing population means we waste a lot of time in traffic. How many times have you dined at the drive-thru because you figured you'd be stuck in the car anyway and you might as well get one thing, your meal, accomplished before getting to your destination?

As for those people at the other table, they're going to get fat, too. Not one bit of what has happened to Americans will not now happen to Europeans and Asians, with similar results.

Did you see the animated film "The Triplets of Belleville," in which Americans, including children, were mostly portrayed as so fat they could barely walk, with clothes that barely stretched over their bellies as if they were still gaining weight at a very rapid rate? The DVD has an interview with the French animator, who explains he was showing the "consumerist" American society. I only mention it because the animator was himself quite pudgy.


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## superodalisque (Oct 11, 2009)

fat9276 said:


> and to add..a little slender co-worker of mine, never exercises and always eats processed, lack of nutrient foods every day. I hate her food...so bland and boring. She eats more fast food in a week than I eat in 2 years! Her son lives on powdered donuts and sugar filled juice. Yet I am the fat one! Take that Europe!! :eat1:



when you get down to it even the healthy stuff you eat might not be too much different from whats she is eating nutritionally speaking. it might not be so much what your eating thats affecting you but how its made. when farmers grow a tomato with nearly no nutritional value its easy to equalize people who eat healthily with those who eat unhealthily. hey, take a look at the food inc links i posted earlier and you'll see what i mean.


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## Friday (Oct 12, 2009)

Fonzy said:


> I don't want to get nit picky Olwen but 40 euros is 60 dollars. Surely its not that expensive to get a flight across the country from one coast to the other, are there no cheap small airlines that specialize in such journeys over there? As for driving across the country well I can totally understand a persons reluctance to do that, your country is huge, even with those great big highways an interstates that you guys have doing such a road trip would be a holiday in itself. However doing it over there would be considerably cheaper than doing it in Europe. From what I could tell you guys pay somewhere between 2.50 and 3 dollars for a gallon of petrol (gas), that Olwen is very cheap in my eyes at least. Here in Ireland most garages charge a slightly over the 1 euro mark for a litre of petrol at the moment. There is 3.785 litres in a gallon and.........., well anyway not to bore anyone with calculations but when you work it out and convert from euros to dollars it works out that we are paying a lil over 6 dollars for a gallon . Man we're gettin shafted over here lol  Now I've just based that on prices here in Ireland, maybe if anyone from mainland Europe could shed some light on the topic, like what are prices like in say Germany or France?



I know you weren't trying to be funny, but you were. $60 wouldn't get me a plane ticket to my sister's which is only a three hour drive away. To fly cross country (round trip) would easily go in to four figures unless you had the luxury of waiting until you found a bargain fare and even that would cost you at least $800. Driving? Gas may be under $3 gal but as Tad mentioned you also have to cover the cost of food and lodging as you travel cross country. I know people who have made the trip in 3-4 days but it would still cost you several hundred for food and lodging and you're not going to see anything but gas stations and fast food drive up windows at that speed so why bother? What many Europeans don't grasp is the sheer size of the country. Sure, it would be lovely to hop over to Spain or the south of France for vacation like Europeans do but unfortunately, I couldn't get to San Diego Ca from Seattle (1265 miles) for what you would pay for a ticket from London to Barcelona (707 miles), much less from Seattle to say Boston (2484 miles) or Miami (2734 miles).

This is not to excuse the manners of Ugly Americans when they do travel but last time I checked their is no nation on earth who's natives don't come with some negative stereotypes and those stereotypes are based on the realities of the behaviors of some of their people.


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## AuntHen (Oct 12, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> when you get down to it even the healthy stuff you eat might not be too much different from whats she is eating nutritionally speaking. it might not be so much what your eating thats affecting you but how its made. when farmers grow a tomato with nearly no nutritional value its easy to equalize people who eat healthily with those who eat unhealthily. hey, take a look at the food inc links i posted earlier and you'll see what i mean.



actually I am a huge whole food, organic non-pesticide kind of person, and lots of people in my family grow their own tomatoes. I do not like store bought tomatoes..no flavor! I tend to go to local farmers markets. I like food that is in season and I like meat, eggs dairy, that is free range, hormone antobiotic free etc etc etc  I am a hippy born too late


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## superodalisque (Oct 12, 2009)

fat9276 said:


> actually I am a huge whole food, organic non-pesticide kind of person, and lots of people in my family grow their own tomatoes. I do not like store bought tomatoes..no flavor! I tend to go to local farmers markets. I like food that is in season and I like meat, eggs dairy, that is free range, hormone antobiotic free etc etc etc  I am a hippy born too late



ooooh can you ship me some tomatoes?:smitten:


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## AuntHen (Oct 12, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> ooooh can you ship me some tomatoes?:smitten:




hahaha... you should try my Dads homegrown heirloom!! Oh my gosh!! Once you have homegrown heirloom the rest are duds  It's like you can taste the sunshine!


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## Weirdo890 (Oct 21, 2009)

I think that's i bad taste. If karma worked, those women would end up as fat as any American.


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## rollhandler (Oct 21, 2009)

Makes me never want to travel abroad. Definately not with my partner.
Rollhandler


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## Fonzy (Oct 22, 2009)

Friday said:


> I know you weren't trying to be funny, but you were. $60 wouldn't get me a plane ticket to my sister's which is only a three hour drive away. To fly cross country (round trip) would easily go in to four figures unless you had the luxury of waiting until you found a bargain fare and even that would cost you at least $800. Driving? Gas may be under $3 gal but as Tad mentioned you also have to cover the cost of food and lodging as you travel cross country. I know people who have made the trip in 3-4 days but it would still cost you several hundred for food and lodging and you're not going to see anything but gas stations and fast food drive up windows at that speed so why bother? What many Europeans don't grasp is the sheer size of the country. Sure, it would be lovely to hop over to Spain or the south of France for vacation like Europeans do but unfortunately, I couldn't get to San Diego Ca from Seattle (1265 miles) for what you would pay for a ticket from London to Barcelona (707 miles), much less from Seattle to say Boston (2484 miles) or Miami (2734 miles).
> 
> This is not to excuse the manners of Ugly Americans when they do travel but last time I checked their is no nation on earth who's natives don't come with some negative stereotypes and those stereotypes are based on the realities of the behaviors of some of their people.



You're right, I wasn't actually trying to sound funny or come across that way. I honestly can't understand why it is so much more expensive to fly across your country for Americans than it is for someone outside the country, because apparently there is a huge discrepancy between airline pricing in different countries. I say this because it will be costing me just over 550 (just under $825) to travel roughly double the distances you mentioned, for a return ticket by the way, when I visit again in the new year. Just out of curiosity today I did a quick comparison of prices for a trip of equivalent distance, Seattle to Boston is as near as damn it the same distance from Dublin to Cairo in Egypt. Leaving the same day to both destinations prices worked out at $249 for the SEA to BOT trip with two stops traveling with Air Tran Airways, and 362 for the DUB to CAI with one stop and traveling with bmi on the way out and Egypt Air on the way back. It was actually cheaper to stay an extra day on the Cairo trip as leaving on the previous day (same as the SEA to BOS trip) the trip would have cost 413.......... eh WTF lol . Perhaps people aren't good at rooting out cheap airfares, but if you are being charged 4 digits in any currency for a plane ticket I think you are probably being taking for a ride and you should definitely check it out. I understand people's reluctance to travel across the country by driving, I said that would be a holiday in itself since the states are so vast. The point I was trying to make however was that the trip would be considerably cheaper than doing one of equivalent distance in Europe, all other things being equal say the type of car, fuel consumption, cost of food and lodging. I made this assumption on the fact that in the States you guys pay roughly 3 for a gallon of petrol, while over here (in Ireland at least, not sure about the rest of the continent) we pay roughly 6.50 for the the same amount of petrol!

Couldn't agree more with your closing statement though Friday, very VERY true. :bow:


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## fat hiker (Oct 22, 2009)

Waikikian said:


> The average American did not choose to eat all those fast food meals, but fell into the habit of eating on the run because the global economy now obliges people to work longer hours and the growing population means we waste a lot of time in traffic. How many times have you dined at the drive-thru because you figured you'd be stuck in the car anyway QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Oh yes, there's the rub, 'stuck in the car anyway'! As someone from outside, it is truly amazing to look at the USA and see just how much you depend on cars for transport - two generations of the US government and the US car industry promoting automobiles and doing nearly everything possible to undermine any other sort of transport. A society is created, centred around cars - just compare the number of drive-thru windows in the USA to those in any other countr. Quick, my fellow Canadians and my friendly Europeans, how many drive-thru liquor stores do you have? Drive-thru banks? Drive thru grocery stores? Drive-thru gun retailers? Drive-thru lottery ticket sellers? All of which I have seen in two stints of living in the USA.
> ...


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## Gingembre (Oct 22, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> Quick, my fellow Canadians and my friendly Europeans, how many drive-thru liquor stores do you have? Drive-thru banks? Drive thru grocery stores? Drive-thru gun retailers? Drive-thru lottery ticket sellers? All of which I have seen in two stints of living in the USA.



Friendly European here....answers are none, none, none, none and none. And I have never seen a drive-through Starbucks either (but there's bound to be one here somewhere by now!).


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## Fonzy (Oct 22, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> Friendly European here....answers are none, none, none, none and none. And I have never seen a drive-through Starbucks either (but there's bound to be one here somewhere by now!).



Nuh uh, despite the amount of Starbucks dotted around the capital we still haven't got a drive through "anything" here


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 23, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> . A society is created, centred around cars - just compare the number of drive-thru windows in the USA to those in any other countr. Quick, my fellow Canadians and my friendly Europeans, how many drive-thru liquor stores do you have? Drive-thru banks? Drive thru grocery stores? Drive-thru gun retailers? Drive-thru lottery ticket sellers? All of which I have seen in two stints of living in the USA.



Really?? I've never seen a drive thru grocery store, lol, or a gun retailer, or a drive thru lottery ticket place, lol. Where have you lived? Sounds awesome. I can go buy a gun, win the lotto and get my weekly shopping without leaving my car? FOR REALS?

In the UK though, to be fair, nearly EVERYTHING has a delivery option. You can only get groceries delivered in the US if you live in a rare place. Here it is common place to get your food delivered.

Most of the banks and starbucks are either in pedestrian only zones or are on crowded busy streets where there is zero parking, much less room for a drive thru. 

The only drive thru I really miss is for the atm/cash machine. I have no problem going into the bank to do my banking, but the drive thru atm was awesome.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 23, 2009)

Fonzy said:


> Nuh uh, despite the amount of Starbucks dotted around the capital we still haven't got a drive through "anything" here



You will find in most big crowded cities even in the US, there are no drive thru starbucks or much of anything else. I doubt I would find anything drive thru in NYC or San Francisco either.


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## Shosh (Oct 23, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> Waikikian said:
> 
> 
> > The average American did not choose to eat all those fast food meals, but fell into the habit of eating on the run because the global economy now obliges people to work longer hours and the growing population means we waste a lot of time in traffic. How many times have you dined at the drive-thru because you figured you'd be stuck in the car anyway QUOTE]
> ...


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 23, 2009)

Susannah said:


> fat hiker said:
> 
> 
> > Australia has very good public transport.
> ...


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## Tad (Oct 23, 2009)

A lot of it has to do with how cities get laid out. The older cities on the east coast of the US have high density cores, both because they were built before personal automobiles became common and also because land is at a premium (on a coast you can only spread out in half a circle). But the cities further west, where land is comparatively cheap, and the cities can spread out in every direction, which largely grew post-automobile? They really sprawl. In addition, changes in the way suburbs are designed makes walking anywhere harder. Way back, in most places property taxes were paid based on how wide a lot was, so lots (and houses) were narrow but deep. That put a lot of houses along the same length of street. When they changed property taxes to be based on value of the house, developers found that wide lots sell better, so lots became wide but comparatively shallow. Combined that with cheap land prices encouraged by sprawl, and lots (and houses) also got bigger. Which means that there are a LOT less houses for the same length of road. 

In addition, in most places new developments moved away from a grid and to loops and crescents and dead end streets, to discourage through traffic. With less density of houses and less direct through streets, good bus service is much harder to providethe busses have to go a lot farther to serve a given number of people, which means lower ridership levels, higher costs, and longer (=slower) routes. Also with lower density of people, it is less feasible to have local stores within walking distancethere are just not enough people who are within walking distance. So you have to drive to the stores. The same logic applies to school (and large schools are cheaper to run), so kids end up bussed or driven to school. And in some parts of the US, starting in the 70s they didnt require side walks along streets, so in a lot of places if you did want to walk anywhere you have to walk along the gutter.

I suspect that veterans returning from the second world war may have been a factor in some of this, that people suffering trauma from the war may have been more inclined to want their own little territory, where they barely had to deal with other people, rather than the more public life you have in higher density neighborhoods? Whatever the reason, the tradition also became that people hung out in their houses and yards, not in public spaces. Instead of a lot of small house lots, with a nearby park and playground, you have a lot of large yards (and quiet streets where kids will play too), but less public parks. I think this retreat to private spaces has had huge implications for politics; I suspect that it is no accident that higher density urban cores are move apt to vote for parties supporting more public services (and commensurate taxes), they just make more sense to people who are living more in public, I think.

Sorry for ranting, having grown up on a crescent and a dead end street in big houses with big lots, but nothing nearby but other houses, when I got a choice I gladly fled to the urban core, and I probably blame suburban design for more ills than it really deserves.


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## Shosh (Oct 23, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Susannah said:
> 
> 
> > I am pretty sure there is no regualar transport from cockroach to Mexico!
> ...


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## SparkGirl (Oct 23, 2009)

*Funny you say this....ever see the horror movie "Wolf Creek"? *



Susannah said:


> mergirl said:
> 
> 
> > Well Actually there several public transport options from New South Wales to Victoria, XPT train, bus etc etc.
> ...


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## Shosh (Oct 23, 2009)

SparkGirl said:


> *Funny you say this....ever see the horror movie "Wolf Creek"? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## joswitch (Oct 23, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Really?? I've never seen a drive thru grocery store, lol, or a gun retailer, or a drive thru lottery ticket place, lol. Where have you lived? Sounds awesome. I can go buy a gun, win the lotto and get my weekly shopping without leaving my car? FOR REALS?
> 
> In the UK though, to be fair, nearly EVERYTHING has a delivery option. You can only get groceries delivered in the US if you live in a rare place. Here it is common place to get your food delivered.



Yeah, if you don't mind paying waaaay more, and getting the wrong stuff delivered and having to wait in aaaaall day for that delivery! Even then it often doesn't show up, BUT a card saying "you were out when we came" appears in your letterbox mysteriously.... they're like fuckin' ninjas with those cards... they're waiting outside with binoculars trained on your front room... 
"Nah, not yet... he's watching telly.... wait, wait HE'S IN THE BOG! CARD HIM! GOGOGOGO! YESSSSSS! mission completed! let's go to the pub!" 

Great Britain - killing you with incompetence since 1970!


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 23, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Yeah, if you don't mind paying waaaay more, and getting the wrong stuff delivered and having to wait in aaaaall day for that delivery! Even then it often doesn't show up, BUT a card saying "you were out when we came" appears in your letterbox mysteriously.... they're like fuckin' ninjas with those cards... they're waiting outside with binoculars trained on your front room...
> "Nah, not yet... he's watching telly.... wait, wait HE'S IN THE BOG! CARD HIM! GOGOGOGO! YESSSSSS! mission completed! let's go to the pub!"
> 
> Great Britain - killing you with incompetence since 1970!



Really?!?!?! I've been very impressed with Tescos delivery. Been using it for over 2 years now.


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## joswitch (Oct 23, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Really?!?!?! I've been very impressed with Tescos delivery. Been using it for over 2 years now.



Okayz... I sit corrected!  Just pray you never have to deal with Parcelfarce!


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## Sandie S-R (Oct 24, 2009)

*Let's keep this thread on topic. If I see any more off topic snark (especially the kind that makes reference to closed threads) I will close this one as well or issue some more time outs. 

Please stay on topic, and be civil. Thank you. :bow:


/Moderator*


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## Tina (Oct 24, 2009)

Having drive-thru options helps me to live a more full life and be able to do things for myself and not have my husband do them, though there are, unfortunately, fewer drive-thrus in Quebec than in California or most of the states. The thinking here is that walking is healthier, so let's have streets where you have to walk and cannot drive -- let's have days where whole sections of the city are closed off so people can ride bikes easier and walk! Yeah, effing great IF YOU CAN DO THAT. This is the mindset of people not realizing their own privilege of being capable of the simple act of walking, or the ability to ride a bike. If you cannot do it in those areas or on those days, you're screwed. I totally get the thing about reducing emmissions, but mandatory no driving days, etc, just flat out piss me off.

So I say, have as many drive-thrus as possible, because while those who can do the walking have the option, those who cannot like to be as independent as possible and not only not have to have people do things for us, but also want to get the hell out of the house.


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## Sugar (Oct 24, 2009)

Tina said:


> Having drive-thru options helps me to live a more full life and be able to do things for myself and not have my husband do them, though there are, unfortunately, fewer drive-thrus in Quebec than in California or most of the states. The thinking here is that walking is healthier, so let's have streets where you have to walk and cannot drive -- let's have days where whole sections of the city are closed off so people can ride bikes easier and walk! Yeah, effing great IF YOU CAN DO THAT. This is the mindset of people not realizing their own privilege of being capable of the simple act of walking, or the ability to ride a bike. If you cannot do it in those areas or on those days, you're screwed. I totally get the thing about reducing emmissions, but mandatory no driving days, etc, just flat out piss me off.
> 
> So I say, have as many drive-thrus as possible, because while those who can do the walking have the option, those who cannot like to be as independent as possible and not only not have to have people do things for us, but also want to get the hell out of the house.



I really appreciate this point. 

I've now moved to cuff crutches and goodness you cannot push a cart or carry bags with those things...but I need them to walk. Plus a car ride is better than being inside for weeks at a time.


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