# Do you think that plus size acceptance has increased or decreased in today's society?



## yewande_ (Dec 6, 2014)

Hi guys , my name is Yewande.

I'm recently in university doing a research presentation on if body acceptance has increased or decreased in today's society. BTW I am plus size so this topic is really important to me and interests me alot. But I would love to get everyone's opinion on the matter!

Thanks  :


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## Ruby Ripples (Dec 6, 2014)

yewande_ said:


> Hi guys , my name is Yewande.
> 
> I'm recently in university doing a research presentation on if body acceptance has increased or decreased in today's society. BTW I am plus size so this topic is really important to me and interests me alot. But I would love to get everyone's opinion on the matter!
> 
> Thanks  :



Just wondering if you bothered to ask the site owner or admin's permission to post this "research" topic?


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## ScreamingChicken (Dec 6, 2014)

Ruby Ripples said:


> Just wondering if you bothered to ask the site owner or admin's permission to post this "research" topic?



I am not sure anyone even knows who the ownership is, actually. Ever since Conrad bid "adieu", it's been the $64,000 question.


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## yewande_ (Dec 6, 2014)

Ruby Ripples said:


> Just wondering if you bothered to ask the site owner or admin's permission to post this "research" topic?


There's nothing wrong with that I'm doing though, why would I have to ask for permission?


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## bigmac (Dec 6, 2014)

yewande_ said:


> Hi guys , my name is Yewande.
> 
> I'm recently in university doing a research presentation on if body acceptance has increased or decreased in today's society. BTW I am plus size so this topic is really important to me and interests me alot. But I would love to get everyone's opinion on the matter!
> 
> Thanks  :



I've been around for a while (I'm 50) and its my perception that, at least for plus size women, things have improved considerably in the last 30 years. The fat girls at my high school never went to social events -- today they do (I have plus sized daughters who won't stop socializing). 30 years ago it was almost impossible for plus size women to find nice clothes -- today pretty much everything is available (at least if you have $$$). I also believe that plus size women have a lot more dating and relationship options today.

For fat men, however, things may have actually got a bit worse. There's more pressure on guys today to be physically attractive (yeah I know women will say welcome to the club). This makes it harder for fat guys to compete. Also, the fact that fat women have more options today means they're less likely to settle for a fat guy.


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## Marlayna (Dec 7, 2014)

yewande_ said:


> Hi guys , my name is Yewande.
> 
> I'm recently in university doing a research presentation on if body acceptance has increased or decreased in today's society. BTW I am plus size so this topic is really important to me and interests me alot. But I would love to get everyone's opinion on the matter!
> 
> Thanks  :


Hi and welcome. From my perspective, acceptance is at an all time high.
We now see many fat people on television and in the workplace, where it was rarely the case to see a fat woman delivering the nightly news, or manning the reception desk at a fancy firm. 
Fat woman had very few wardrobe choices, and you'd never see one in bright, form-fitting, clothes. The fashion rules have changed for us, and my closet is not longer filled with black, brown, or navy EVERYTHING. Large bras only came in white, beige, or black, and if you wore a big size, good luck trying to find one in a department store.
The prejudice is still there, and I don't know it will ever completely go away, but I believe the fat acceptance movement has come a long way, and life is a bit easier for fatties growing up in a thin-obsessed society.


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## Marlayna (Dec 7, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I've been around for a while (I'm 50) and its my perception that, at least for plus size women, things have improved considerably in the last 30 years. The fat girls at my high school never went to social events -- today they do (I have plus sized daughters who won't stop socializing). 30 years ago it was almost impossible for plus size women to find nice clothes -- today pretty much everything is available (at least if you have $$$). I also believe that plus size women have a lot more dating and relationship options today.
> 
> For fat men, however, things may have actually got a bit worse. There's more pressure on guys today to be physically attractive (yeah I know women will say welcome to the club). This makes it harder for fat guys to compete. Also, the fact that fat women have more options today means they're less likely to settle for a fat guy.


I agree with everything except for the last line, I don't know if that's true or not.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 7, 2014)

Before you can decide whether or not body acceptance has increased, it's important to decide what you mean by "body acceptance." For example, several posters have mentioned that there are now more fashion choices in plus sizes. Is this a reflection of increased tolerance for fat women, or the realization that there are more plus-size women than ever before, combined with a desire to get their money? I'd love to believe that compassion has trumped greed, but somehow I can't convince myself.


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## Jon Blaze (Dec 7, 2014)

I think it has increased dramatically, but Dr. Feelgood also brings up a good point. I still think overall Body Acceptance as a movement is sort of in the grassroots stage, but the amount of support is gaining steam quickly. Not only in a wider range of what body types are considered attractive, but also the autonomy. The former is a stronger force at this point though. Body type, traits, and value are still interlaced for most people I think, but there are rare moments where I've agreed with someone regarding body acceptance, or we can at least reach a middle ground of some sort.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 7, 2014)

Personally, I believe the biggest changes have came through better communications- such as these here intranets and social media. 

Showing more of a reality for people....and larger numbers of fat people being around than previously


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## ConnieLynn (Dec 8, 2014)

Well fatness is certainly more common, so as a fat chick I am less likely to be the only fat person in a crowd. However, more fat people does not equal greater size acceptance. 

In reality, more fat people means the "acceptable" fat range has shifted. A woman can now be a bit larger than in the past and still be in the acceptable range. So folks today might judge a size 16 - 18 woman like they judged a size 12 woman in the past. 

If you are past the "acceptable" range, you still face all the stigma. Sure, in some ways it is easier being fat because there's more fatcentric stuff to buy, but our butts still don't fit in chairs, booths, and airline seats. And fat people still dread job interviews.

Bigmac, the change I see with fat guys is something fat women have faced for a long time -- you are judged differently if you are the wrong kind of fat. If a guy just has a belly, it's like it's forgiven... Oh, he's not really fat, he just has a belly. That's manly fat, with the unspoken assumption that you could lose it at any time. If a guy is fat all over, he's "soft", not manly.


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## agouderia (Dec 8, 2014)

The development of fat and size acceptance is a very double-edged sword.

On the one hand, there are the sheer facts and numbers, as ConnieLynn wrote.

Fat people are no longer a minority; depending on where you draw the line they're the majority in many Western societies. So the law of large numbers matters - markets adapt, more companies cater to the needs of such a large portion of society, etc.

Social media and more free channels of public communication have also expotentially increased the options for spreading content and organizing interests which are beyond the mass media mainstream. That also gives more room and opportunities for publicizing size acceptance and pro-fat, making it more visible on the opinion market.

On the other hand - in the mass media mainstream and general public opinion size acceptance has imo actually deteriorated.

Size and weight weren't that much of a public issue several decades ago - today fat-bashing and anti-obesity rhetoric is the last accepted, sometimes even promoted form of openly voiced discrimation.

The visual standard has made super-slim the visual ideal: Models in the 1970's were 8% thinner than the average women in their height category; today they are 23% thinner - making this goal almost totally unattainable.
Weight and size becomes an issue today with women wearing a size US 10/UK 14, which is always within the healthy range of the BMI scale.

The ubiquitous use of the BMI scale actually pathologizes and thus stigmatizes millions of people, by ascribing all sorts of health risks and in consequence anti-social behavior to those with a BMI of 25-30. The fact that all half-way serious (and not diet-industry sponsored) medical research shows that this weight segment has the best data for longevity and recovery from major illnesses is ignored.

In this line I once have to agree with bigmac that things have especially deteriorated for BHMs. The male body and figure where non-issues until about 20-25 years ago; today men are increasingly suffering from the same thin-pressure women have been subject to for a long time. An ironic side-effect of more gender equality.


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## fuelingfire (Dec 8, 2014)

I think it depends on how you are measuring it. IMO it has advanced in the last 20 years. I think the US is not as thin obsessed as it was in the 90s.
An example of it in television would be watch any episode of Friends (or any show from the 90s really). Look at the cast of extras in the background, like the coffee shop in Friends. Every one of them is bone thin. Then watch a modern show for example How I met your mother. HIMYM has a lot of extras who are BBWs.

I think some of the advancement might be due to conformity though. The US population is becoming overweight. I see so many more BBWs at the age of 32 then I did when I was 12. When a minority becomes the majority, their interests start to make waves. When I was younger I rarely ever saw BBWs in public wearing stylish and revealing clothing. Now I see it on a daily basis.

There are more stores with plus size clothing, but that has more to do with trying to make money (IMO) than putting the notion of size acceptance. The high the number of overweight people, the more people need larger clothing. Money is one of the strongest motivators. 

I think the internet has given rise to more understanding and acceptance. It showed me that I am not the only FA on Earth. However whenever I click on a news story related to size acceptance, I dread seeing the comment sections. I really shouldnt read them but I do. The story is uplifting, but the comment sections are full of: you are killing yourself, why dont you worry about your health, you are lazy go hit the gym, you can just diet.

I am not so sure for acceptance for BHMs though. I think there is increased pressure for men to be thin in modern society.


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## Tad (Dec 8, 2014)

ConnieLynn said:


> Well fatness is certainly more common, so as a fat chick I am less likely to be the only fat person in a crowd. However, more fat people does not equal greater size acceptance.
> 
> In reality, more fat people means the "acceptable" fat range has shifted. A woman can now be a bit larger than in the past and still be in the acceptable range. So folks today might judge a size 16 - 18 woman like they judged a size 12 woman in the past.
> 
> ...



First of all, pretty much what ConnieLynn said. Sadly, I remember a discussion on the predecessor to the current boards here, in the mid-late 90s, discussing where size acceptance might be heading given an ever fatter population. The hope was that it would lead to more acceptance for everyone, the fear was that it would just slightly expand the envelope of acceptable body sizes but not do much good for people who were still outside that envelope. I'd agree with ConnieLynn that it was that latter option that happened.

My wife has been one of the beneficiaries of that widening envelope of acceptable body sizes--in 1990 at maybe 200 pounds she had some young guys yell out of a car window at her "Two words: Jenny Craig." At maybe ten percent larger now she's not really had negative feedback on her size in years, and I have a hard time imagining that anyone would single her out. Of course everyone's experiences are different, but even in the late 90s when pregnant she was treated as high risk due to her size, but her medical practitioners this millennium have been fairly nonchalant about her size, just noting it as a risk item, but less concerned about that than other things.

I think the nature, or at least justification, for anti-fat bias has changed quite a bit. Instead of just being "Yo, you are fat and ugly." it has become more "You are fat and unhealthy and have nasty habits that show how weak you are." In other words, I think that in some ways it has become more judgmental and moralistic--but I admit that I'm getting that impression mostly second hand these days (see preceding paragraph).

As for what guys face, I don't think our culture has really ever been too accepting of guys that are insufficiently masculine, but I think the acceptance level may have been somewhat higher in the 70s and 80s, and fading since. Perhaps it has been a reaction to women have more presence and success in higher education and the work force, that the demands on men to show their manliness have focused more and more on pretty throwback demonstrations of masculinity, with less weight applied to things like career success? Which is not to ask for a ton of sympathy, because women have been subject to those standards for, well, roughly forever. But I would not call it a good trend in terms of human enlightenment, and it certainly does not favours for many fat guys.


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## fuelingfire (Dec 9, 2014)

For insufficiently masculine males, I think things have improved. My reason for believing this is the hippester community and the gay community. Neither one stress being masculine. Though hippesters are probably a fade.


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## spiritangel (Dec 9, 2014)

I can only speak for the country I am in.

It is def getting far worse here than it has ever been. People at times seem to have a violent attitude towards fat

I mean we have never really been a fat friendly country as such (even though we do have a large number of plus sized people)

this is the home of the Bronzed Aussie Lifesaver and women in bikinis on the beach

As a teenager I used to cop the you should try x x or y fad diet, but for the most part people were pretty nice

nowdays people seem to be quite rude, have no issues hurling out insults or even stopping to take pics of the ssbbw

not always, and there are still good people in the world but the whole 'obesity' epedemic (lets not forget that now includes women who are around a size 12-14 now which is beyond rediculous so the average women is considered obese etc) and war on fat seems to have made weight the target of every ill within society

I tend to not notice it though I know it upsets my Mother when we are out if people glare at me or look at me with attitude.

As I said this is just observations from my country I have seen it get worse not better in the last 10 years which I find sad.


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## Tad (Dec 9, 2014)

fuelingfire said:


> For insufficiently masculine males, I think things have improved. My reason for believing this is the hippester community and the gay community. Neither one stress being masculine. Though hippesters are probably a fade.



Hmmm, personally I think the hipsters have quite a masculine vibe--not in the burly muscle sort of way, but facial hair (shows male virility), rebellion against the man and general standards of dress and hygiene....that is pretty classic for young male counter-cultures, I think.


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## fuelingfire (Dec 10, 2014)

We are using different definitions of masculine then. Other than facial hair, I do not see them as masculine at all. I do not see them as being rebellious, IMO.
I got this from urbandictionary, "The concepts of androgyny and feminism have influenced hipster culture, where hipster men are often as thin as the women they date. The muscular and athletic all-American male ideal is not seen as attractive by confident and culturally-empowered hipster women who instead view them as symbols of male oppression, sexism, and misogyny."


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## bigmac (Dec 12, 2014)

agouderia said:


> ...
> 
> In this line I once have to agree with bigmac that things have especially deteriorated for BHMs. The male body and figure where non-issues until about 20-25 years ago; today men are increasingly suffering from the same thin-pressure women have been subject to for a long time. An ironic side-effect of more gender equality.



I was watching old Star Trek episodes the other day. In one scene William Shatner was shirtless. He was actually built pretty good back in 1967 -- however, he wasn't nearly as ripped as today's actors. No director today would let a similarly built actor do a shirtless scene.

When people of either sex buy into the new unattainable (or unsustainable) standard grief is sure to follow. I've seen both men and women spend time, money, and effort chasing _hot body _love interests. Often the chase is unsuccessful and even when successful they often find a _hot body _does not a good relationship make. As a general rule its not a good idea to have unreasonable expectations. This rule is especially applicable when those unreasonable expectation relate to a love interests physical appearance.


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## superodalisque (Dec 14, 2014)

I think it has improved a lot. I think a lot of it has really branched out from feminism and women feeling that they are more than a sexual appliance for somebody else while being able to be fully sexual and that our bodies actually do belong to us. having autonomy over your body and not having to look at yourself through the eyes of another has a lot to do with self love IMO. and when you love yourself society seems to just follow right along.


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## BorisFA (Dec 14, 2014)

spiritangel said:


> I can only speak for the country I am in.
> 
> It is def getting far worse here than it has ever been. People at times seem to have a violent attitude towards fat
> 
> ...



I dont know which country are you from but in mine, Spain, it is the same, fat issue is getting worse, here nobody want a fat male of female, at least in reality but on the Net this change at all, you just have to say that you are a SSBBW or Superchubby over 400 lbs and many men will try to date with you , straigh or gay men, but there is a far distance between society on the street and on the Net. 

This is one of the worst countries to be fat


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## bigmac (Dec 14, 2014)

BorisFA said:


> I dont know which country are you from but in mine, Spain, it is the same, fat issue is getting worse, here nobody want a fat male of female, at least in reality but on the Net this change at all, you just have to say that you are a SSBBW or Superchubby over 400 lbs and many men will try to date with you , straigh or gay men,* but there is a far distance between society on the street and on the Net*.
> 
> This is one of the worst countries to be fat



Exactly. On the net people are free to indulge their fantasies -- nothing wrong with that. However, in the real world people must deal with actual facts on the ground. Many people who may fantasize about a very large partner will not actually seek one out in real life. Being with a supersize person requires acceptance of a lot of difficulties. Many people will choose to avoid these difficulties.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 14, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Exactly. Many people who may fantasize about a very large partner will not actually seek one out in real life. Being with a supersize person requires acceptance of a lot of difficulties. Many people will choose to avoid these difficulties.



Even being with a mid-size person entails difficulties, particularly if you are in a career that depends on public acceptance of your image. Persons in politics or the performing arts cannot, generally speaking, risk being seen with a large partner for fear of ridicule from journalists and a lower approval rating at the polls. And since these are the very celebrities that we seek to emulate in our own dress and behavior, the whole process remains a vicious circle.


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## superodalisque (Dec 14, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Exactly. On the net people are free to indulge their fantasies -- nothing wrong with that. However, in the real world people must deal with actual facts on the ground. Many people who may fantasize about a very large partner will not actually seek one out in real life. Being with a supersize person requires acceptance of a lot of difficulties. Many people will choose to avoid these difficulties.



there is a big difference between choosing someone as a partner and accepting them. if someone can't deal with the practical issues of a very heavy partner it has nothing to do with not accepting them. everyone of every size has something to deal with. it doesn't always show. so sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. that's life. everybody's life.

the idea that acceptance only has something to do with whether a person is partnered or not is a problem because that is NOT everything in life. people keep bringing that up as if it's the answer for everything. it's only one thing. acceptance doesn't have all that much to do with sexual fantasies. it has to do with an entire life. there are lots of people who never indulge in online fantasies because they are out there living it for real everyday. the idea that online sex fantasies has anything to do with what life actually is is like saying porn is determining everything happening in the world today. people need to let go of this idea that what is happening in someone's else's crotch online is a fat person's everything because it's not.


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## Yakatori (Dec 15, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> "_...a lot of it has really branched out from feminism and women feeling that they are more than a sexual appliance for somebody else while being able to be fully sexual and that our bodies actually do belong to us. having autonomy over your body and not having to look at yourself through the eyes of another has a lot to do with self love IMO. and when you love yourself society seems to just follow right along._"


Yeah, there's no question that men have directly benefited from feminism, a lot by way of naturalizing (for everyone, equally) the overarching concept of self-determination. That it need not require or depend upon any sort of complex or elaborate intellectual underpinning.



superodalisque said:


> *there is a big difference between choosing someone as a partner and accepting them*....the idea that acceptance only has something to do with whether a person is partnered or not is a problem because *that is NOT everything in life. people keep bringing that up as if it's the answer for everything. it's only one thing. *acceptance doesn't have all that much to do with...


Yeah, I also think that the way that having _a viable partner_ is intrinsically, unquestioningly connected with procreating has, kind of, put the two things together as some sort of litmus for a person's worth.

Maybe a way to help better flesh out the error or limitations of this concept would be to come up with some sort of list of individuals of remarkable (here, I don't want to say "_redeeming_") social-value that were never substantially partnered. Or who didn't produce any particularly remarkable offspring.

Except, that would import with it the whole idea of how a person is under some sort of burden to accomplish something in particular which is some measurable by the largely unfamiliar masses.



spiritangel said:


> "_...getting far worse here than it has ever been. People at times seem to have a violent attitude towards fat....*As a teenager...for the most part people were pretty nice*...nowdays people seem to be quite rude, have no issues hurling out insults or even stopping to take pics of the ssbbw_"


Sorry to hear that. But, I'm curious: Is it possible this is a function of age?

As in, kids are always rough on other kids. But kids also tend to put that kind of critique in the context of it being another kid; a peer, but a non-adult nonetheless. And (normal) adults are generally more careful, restrained, in their criticism or judgement of non-adults. Even if just because they don't really acknowledge their own individual agency, i.e. "_they're are that way because of parenting, environment, lack of opportunity, ect..._" Or that, being so young, there's still time to change.

Whereas, as an adult, you're mainly just seen for how you are, currently. And that this more indelible, fully-formed quality is therefore something to for anyone to consider for either acceptance or rejection.


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## BorisFA (Dec 15, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Exactly. On the net people are free to indulge their fantasies -- nothing wrong with that. However, in the real world people must deal with actual facts on the ground. Many people who may fantasize about a very large partner will not actually seek one out in real life. Being with a supersize person requires acceptance of a lot of difficulties. Many people will choose to avoid these difficulties.



These pseudo fat admirer are cowardys at my eyes, many times misstreat and discriminate fat people even more intensely than not FAs, so it make me hate them bloodily, so to say it. 

After many years in my circle, I am the only man who opened say that my lovely woman figure come from at least 400 Lbs SSBBW, people use to surprise a lot but I dont care. I have never meet any other man who state the same in real life, unfortunately , 

Al long all those million FAs dont come out of the closet, word will not change, it is a shame


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## bigmac (Dec 16, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Even being with a mid-size person entails difficulties, particularly if you are in a *career* that depends on public acceptance of your image. Persons in politics or the performing arts cannot, generally speaking, risk being seen with a large partner for fear of ridicule from journalists and a lower approval rating at the polls. And since these are the very celebrities that we seek to emulate in our own dress and behavior, the whole process remains a vicious circle.




Yes, as I've posted on other threads, my wife worked for years as a supersize person with little recognition. Now that she's a _normal_ size person she can't turn around without getting patted on the back.


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## Tad (Dec 16, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Even being with a mid-size person entails difficulties, particularly if you are in a career that depends on public acceptance of your image. Persons in politics or the performing arts cannot, generally speaking, risk being seen with a large partner for fear of ridicule from journalists and a lower approval rating at the polls. And since these are the very celebrities that we seek to emulate in our own dress and behavior, the whole process remains a vicious circle.





bigmac said:


> Yes, as I've posted on other threads, my wife worked for years as a supersize person with little recognition. Now that she's a _normal_ size person she can't turn around without getting patted on the back.



Although some people manage to be the exception to these 'rules.' How do they 'get away with it'? And can we bottle some of that for more general distribution?

I'm not disagreeing with your observations, just not wanting to implicitly agree that there is nothing that can be done about the situation.


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## EMH1701 (Dec 16, 2014)

I think it depends. If one is talking about Hollywood, I have noticed that plus-size actresses still have a hard time making it unless they are in comedy (ex. Melissa McCarthy). If one is talking about the fashion industry, there are a lot more offerings. Many of them are being designed by plus-size women who have had it with the lack of fashionable clothes in their sizes. Good for them, I say.


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## superodalisque (Dec 17, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Yes, as I've posted on other threads, my wife worked for years as a supersize person with little recognition. Now that she's a _normal_ size person she can't turn around without getting patted on the back.



that's just your wife and not everybody.


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## superodalisque (Dec 17, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Even being with a mid-size person entails difficulties, particularly if you are in a career that depends on public acceptance of your image. Persons in politics or the performing arts cannot, generally speaking, risk being seen with a large partner for fear of ridicule from journalists and a lower approval rating at the polls. And since these are the very celebrities that we seek to emulate in our own dress and behavior, the whole process remains a vicious circle.



most likely it's because they are acting ashamed and have no balls. all of those situations take confidence. if they were actually social they'd know. I know powerful people who are CEOs business owners politicians prominent in the arts etc... and are fat and have fat spouses of both sexes out there but people are uneducated and unexposed to that level of society. they don't know what they're talking about when they claim they don't exist. their limited world view is just as bad as fat phobic people's ignorance on a different level. just because they are slightly involved in the fat community around the edges or go somewhere to hook up with fat people they think they know everything about fat people everywhere at every level when they now little to nothing. 

successful fat people don't even run in those circles just like successful people of average size don't go around picking people up at sexually oriented conventions. number one, they don't have time for that crap. number two, they socialize with people who have private planes, go to posh resorts and don't spend the night in $150 hotel rooms that people have to have roomies to afford. get real. people watch too much t.v., get out too little and are too socially self limiting to know. 

truly successful people already know that if they whimp out about anything the world will step on their necks. I agree with Boris who said that a lot of people who are always running around talking about how they are so attracted to fat people tend to be the absolute worst at moving SA forward and also the most cowardly. people who have nothing to do with the fat community are often much more loyal to their friends and lovers. and it is due mainly to these people that the situation is changing because they aren't the ones who are simpering ashamed ideologically limited and always naysaying.


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## superodalisque (Dec 17, 2014)

EMH1701 said:


> I think it depends. If one is talking about Hollywood, I have noticed that plus-size actresses still have a hard time making it unless they are in comedy (ex. Melissa McCarthy). If one is talking about the fashion industry, there are a lot more offerings. Many of them are being designed by plus-size women who have had it with the lack of fashionable clothes in their sizes. Good for them, I say.



we don't have to depend on Hollywood anymore. technology has opened everything up. we can subvert Hollywood very easily. people can look at this as an opportunity to make the things a lot of other people would be interested in seeing too just because it's truly different. why do we keep waiting on other people to make our dramas mysteries and romances? who are we waiting for?

and just because it's made for or about or by fat people it doesn't mean it's acceptable to be half assed.


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## bigmac (Dec 17, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> that's just your wife and not everybody.



I really don't understand why you cannot accept that being fat is very often an impediment to career success. It's painfully obvious.


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## Tad (Dec 17, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I really don't understand why you cannot accept that being fat is very often an impediment to career success. It's painfully obvious.



It can be, but it hasn't always been for everybody.....and the way for that to lessen is for fat people to succeed when given a chance, and show that they can do so.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 17, 2014)

Tad said:


> It can be, but it hasn't always been for everybody.....and the way for that to lessen is for fat people to succeed when given a chance, and show that they can do so.






I'm sick of your optimism Tad


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## superodalisque (Dec 17, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I really don't understand why you cannot accept that being fat is very often an impediment to career success. It's painfully obvious.



acceptance doesn't mean I accept bullshit. you're still pushing this mess even after all of the stats I posted for you before of the obesity composition of doctors, lawyers and CEOs. the problem is some people get too much emotionally out of looking at fat people as failures or having them look at themselves as failures. and that is why fat people shouldn't listen to people who are out for some kind of pay off by pushing fake misery. no anti fat tea party for us.


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## superodalisque (Dec 18, 2014)

where ever people think they are it doesn't equal where they have to stay or where they are going. 

View attachment 10641156_10152908740712464_7053123670783842013_n.jpg


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## Yakatori (Dec 18, 2014)

I think, maybe, a more delicate way of putting it is just to say that there's a bit of a confirmation bias at work, here. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EniSVYFXuP8[/ame]


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## superodalisque (Dec 18, 2014)

more like defamation bias. fat is not an excuse not to go after dreams. it's not a reason to fail. actual stats don't equal a bias, unless _real _is somehow a bias. 

the problem is it's very comfortable for a lot of people to try and keep fat people "in their place" because they get to feel like somehow they have it over someone else or they hold the power. that goes on in any group even ones claiming to be supportive. so people who are young or unexposed to certain realities are influenced by people who are either clueless because they rely on t.v. and other fat phobic media opinion pieces for their information or are not socially involved with other people or have an agenda of some kind. 

but it should be very interesting to fat folk that people who are supposedly supporters are often the main ones spreading fat phobic myths about their actual potential. 

Boris is right about faux supporters. they are the absolute worst. they are always talking about what they want fat people to do or look like to turn them on and are nearly completely absent when it comes to any kind of real political activism that would improve public perceptions. not only that they amplify their shame on the rest of society even where it doesn't exist. fat people should not let a faux supporter's problems be a fat person's problems. they shouldn't let them influence them to be afraid to even show up at the table -- which is a major part of even perceived issues.

it's interesting and telling that a lot of people who are constantly trying to negatively determine who and what fat people are, and what they are and are not capable are of often not even fat. and even when they are they let fear rule them and try and make fat a reason for the failure they fear instead of trying to help to find solutions to any issues in a fat person's way.

the truth is being fat can be a leg up. being fat can make you memorable in a world of boring and forgettable people. the prejudice is there to keep people from being aware of that. so if you are talented and can do the job you become your own billboard and people respect you for what you can do. people care about how fat you are for all of about ten seconds. after that it's other things, like your personality and intellect. are you a whiner or a go getter. people know there is fat prejudice and they respect you even more if you aren't letting it define you. 

most fat people are not looking for every last person they meet to want to stick a penis in them. they want to be a great writer, accountant, film maker, attorney, doctor, nurse, professor, CEO and many of them are. fat men and women's lives do not totally revolve around the rise and fall of penises, though we can influence that too.


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## EMH1701 (Dec 18, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> we don't have to depend on Hollywood anymore. technology has opened everything up. we can subvert Hollywood very easily. people can look at this as an opportunity to make the things a lot of other people would be interested in seeing too just because it's truly different. why do we keep waiting on other people to make our dramas mysteries and romances?



Well, it does cost money to make a movie. If you just want to record people with a video camera and put it on YouTube like some sort of homemade reality show, sure, anyone can do that. But if you want an action movie or sci-fi movie, anything with special effects, that takes money. It also takes really good acting skills to sell a movie without special effects, and most people do not have good acting skills.


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## bigmac (Dec 18, 2014)

Tad said:


> It can be, but it hasn't always been for everybody.....and the way for that to lessen is for fat people to succeed when given a chance, and show that they can do so.



Over the years I've had the pleasure of knowing many very smart well educated fat women. They've all had decent jobs so it could be argued that they were given a chance to succeed and did so. However, when you look closer they weren't really given a full and fair chance.

Many many fat people (especially fat women) are trapped in what I'll call the back office ghetto. Some examples from my personal experience:

-- A 320 pound woman with a degree from a major university who made 60K as an investigator on the trading floor of a major bank (think stage coach). A decent job for sure but the salary was a pittance compared to what traders were making. She had the credentials and smarts to be a trader. But they were not about to let a fat chick into their club.

-- A 340 pound woman who graduated with honors from a major law school. Based on her outstanding academic credentials she interviewed with multiple large firms -- but none offered her a job (although they hired less accomplished but thinner classmates). The only job she was offered was with a small firm that does real estate closings and divorces. 

-- A 360 pound woman who was very smart with great social skills working for a Fortune 500 telecommunications company. She was a call center supervisor making 75K. Again a good but not great job. WLS, 200 pound weight loss, and 30K in cosmetic surgery and she's was promoted to human recourses VP making well into six figures.

-- A 210 pound woman (only 5'1") who works as an accountant for a large mutual fund doing boring back office work for 70K. She always had stellar performance reviews year after year but somehow never got promoted to management.

-- And my wife, when she weighed over 400 pounds (max 522) she also always got great performance reviews. She was given ever increasing responsibility (she had spending authority on large projects greater than coworkers making more than twice as much). She was shoehorned into what was called a "coordinator" position -- basically a management position without the pay or recognition. Like my friend described above, major weight loss (down to 175) was quickly followed by promotion to actual management. 

This pattern is so common that the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that being fat significantly impacts career advancement.


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## superodalisque (Dec 19, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Over the years I've had the pleasure of knowing many very smart well educated fat women. They've all had decent jobs so it could be argued that they were given a chance to succeed and did so. However, when you look closer they weren't really given a full and fair chance.
> 
> Many many fat people (especially fat women) are trapped in what I'll call the back office ghetto. Some examples from my personal experience:
> 
> ...




actually that is a fallacy. there are a lot of other reasonable conclusions that could be reached.

I call bs because i have a gf who is a fat trader and there have always been fat men on the trading room floor. have you ever been there? I seriously doubt it. 

I call bs on the attorney because I have fat ivy league friends who practice at major firms and who are even partners. 

I know fat female VPs who make six figures. I also know fat male ones. heck the last VP of a major corp who hired me was a really big dude over 400lbs and even was so working at a major healthcare related company. so more bs. 


and if you are trying to say there are no fat people in management in accounting you really have your eyes closed. accounting is chock full of fat folk, especially the highly experienced ones in management. 

I think what you're talking about above is more a function of being a woman and this economy than being fat because it sounds exactly like what a lot of my average sized female friends go through anyway.

and it still doesn't statistically explain why even supersized fat people's , of which there aren't that many anyway, employment stats mirror their proportion in society in the workplace.

and it also doesn't explain why in pretty much all professions weight is reflection of the percentage of people of that weight in society. and actually some are fatter than the rest of society because they can afford to be. 

you act as if every average sized person is always paid fairly and gets unimpeded advancement at all times. that isn't even possible because there is a limit to mobility in the professions. 

everyone who tries for it isn't going to get it simply because there aren't necessarily enough those kinds of positions for everyone anyway. there is no fairy tale. this is the real world where some people get the position and some people don't. and there are a lot more variables out there besides weight. 

it is also not constructive for people to blame everything negative that may happen to them on weight because it keeps people from honing in on other important issues that could push them over the top that are much more important like education ability and social skills.

I have been a super sized person all of my adult life. I have yet not to get a job offer unless they didn't decide to hire anyone.

what you are talking about sounds more like people casting for a t.v. role than what is really going on out there in the professional world.


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## bigmac (Dec 19, 2014)

I'm glad at least one fat person seems to have lived a charmed life. Unfortunately many others have not been so lucky.

Your argument is akin to saying our President is a black man. Therefore, there is no discrimination against black men (one of Biodieselman 's recent obnoxious cartoons made this argument). It would follow that black men who don't succeed would be well advised look within themselves for personal flaws.

Let me be clear -- this argument is total BS when applied to black men -- and is likewise total BS when applied to fat people.


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## Tad (Dec 19, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I'm glad at least one fat person seems to have lived a charmed life. Unfortunately many others have not been so lucky.
> 
> Your argument is akin to saying our President is a black man. Therefore, there is no discrimination against black men (one of Biodieselman 's recent obnoxious cartoons made this argument). It would follow that black men who don't succeed would be well advised look within themselves for personal flaws.
> 
> Let me be clear -- this argument is total BS when applied to black men -- and is likewise total BS when applied to fat people.



Of course size discrimination exists, and of course some fat people will hit more of it than will others.

Likewise there is discrimination based on ethnic background, skin colour, attractiveness of various forms, mastery of the working language in your milieu, gender, height, hobbies, schools attended...... 

So if you are not a tall, handsome, thin, white, athletic male who attended an ivy league school and bonds well on the golf course, should you just give up and say "I'll never be successful, so why try?"

(not to say you should ignore the reality of the world, just saying that external factors are only part of the story)


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 19, 2014)

Tad said:


> (not to say you should ignore the reality of the world, just saying that external factors are only part of the story)



And the part of the story that everybody always ignores -- the elephant in the room -- is _luck_. Hard work is fine; talent is great. But we all know hard-working people who never make it, and unrewarded genius is proverbial. In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.


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## Tad (Dec 19, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.



yep 

123456


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## BorisFA (Dec 19, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Over the years I've had the pleasure of knowing many very smart well educated fat women. They've all had decent jobs so it could be argued that they were given a chance to succeed and did so. However, when you look closer they weren't really given a full and fair chance.
> 
> Many many fat people (especially fat women) are trapped in what I'll call the back office ghetto. Some examples from my personal experience:
> 
> ...



That is our current Reality, fat forbidden or accept consequences as bigmac has told. How can we change it ? wake up all fat admirers , help them to come out of the closed, other ways will end failing :huh:


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## wrestlingguy (Dec 19, 2014)

BorisFA said:


> That is our current Reality, fat forbidden or accept consequences as bigmac has told. How can we change it ? wake up all fat admirers , help them to come out of the closed, other ways will end failing :huh:



Yes, because people are going to listen to other people that are considered fetishists. First thing some of you may want to do is to stop using a fetish term like "fat admirer". Is it really much different today than the now antiquated term "chubby chaser"?

Fat people are people, regardless of gender, and to reduce them to terms like fat & chubby seems to me (and hopefully others) pretty damn similar to the magazine diet ads & science "studies" that cut the heads off of the fat people in the pictures. It dehumanizes them, especially to people outside of the fat community.

For me, the most positive thing anyone who is attracted to fat people can do to further size/fat acceptance is to live that part of your life no different than any other person. If you're dating, go out and enjoy your date in public. Show consideration for them, show affection (if you're feeling it). A word to the wise, it may also look fetish if you're rubbing their fat in public. I really believe that the more people see fat people in dating scenarios, their resistance to it will lessen over time.

If you do want to blog, or get active in fat flash mobs & stuff like that, well fine.........but think of the impact that we could have if everyone could just make public dating look normal. That alone would be a big step forward.


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## superodalisque (Dec 19, 2014)

EMH1701 said:


> Well, it does cost money to make a movie. If you just want to record people with a video camera and put it on YouTube like some sort of homemade reality show, sure, anyone can do that. But if you want an action movie or sci-fi movie, anything with special effects, that takes money. It also takes really good acting skills to sell a movie without special effects, and most people do not have good acting skills.



so what about all of the movies that can be made without special effects? 

so there are no fat people with good acting skills? fat people are over half the populations now. could there be some talent there?


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## superodalisque (Dec 19, 2014)

Tad said:


> Of course size discrimination exists, and of course some fat people will hit more of it than will others.
> 
> Likewise there is discrimination based on ethnic background, skin colour, attractiveness of various forms, mastery of the working language in your milieu, gender, height, hobbies, schools attended......
> 
> ...



exactly. what is the alternative? give up. crawl under a rock. agree that you have no value when you do?


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## superodalisque (Dec 19, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> And the part of the story that everybody always ignores -- the elephant in the room -- is _luck_. Hard work is fine; talent is great. But we all know hard-working people who never make it, and unrewarded genius is proverbial. In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.



there is no such thing as luck, it's preparation meeting opportunity. the world isn't made of magic. people put a lot of effort into luck. I think one of the big problems is a whole lot of people waiting for a life to just fall into their laps.


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## superodalisque (Dec 19, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> Yes, because people are going to listen to other people that are considered fetishists. First thing some of you may want to do is to stop using a fetish term like "fat admirer". Is it really much different today than the now antiquated term "chubby chaser"?
> 
> Fat people are people, regardless of gender, and to reduce them to terms like fat & chubby seems to me (and hopefully others) pretty damn similar to the magazine diet ads & science "studies" that cut the heads off of the fat people in the pictures. It dehumanizes them, especially to people outside of the fat community.
> 
> ...



exactly. say a fat woman or man is beautiful or handsome out right. stop acting like the only reason they are with one is because they can't help themselves or only because they have an uncontrollable drive. the truth is fat people ARE attractive. it they weren't they would not be attracting anyone. if it were just about being fat any old fat person would do.


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## superodalisque (Dec 20, 2014)

I wonder, if people actually believe that being fat and thinking a fat person is beautiful and a fully worthwhile capable human being is so unrealistic impossible and hopeless what is the point of even being here except to take advantage of that situation.

black people and LGBT people face a lot of discrimination and prejudice but you don't see them constantly throwing their hands up and giving in to every negative idea and phobia about them. maybe that is exactly why they are so much more far ahead when it comes to a huge increase in the public recognition that prejudice toward both groups is intolerable.


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## bigmac (Dec 20, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> And the part of the story that everybody always ignores -- the elephant in the room -- is _luck_. Hard work is fine; talent is great. But we all know hard-working people who never make it, and unrewarded genius is proverbial. In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.




This is very true. Factors beyond an individual's control affect life outcomes. Malcolm Gladwell addressed this issue in his book _Outliers_. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

Success rarely comes without hard work. However, circumstances beyond an individual's control determine how well rewarded an individual's hard work will be.


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## superodalisque (Dec 21, 2014)

bigmac said:


> This is very true. Factors beyond an individual's control affect life outcomes. Malcolm Gladwell addressed this issue in his book _Outliers_.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)
> 
> Success rarely comes without hard work. However, circumstances beyond an individual's control determine how well rewarded an individual's hard work will be.



there isn't much outside of your control except an accident. even then you have a lot of control. either you can try to recover and deal with a disability and even create a new kind of life if necessary or you can just give up. there is nearly always some kind of choice for most people in the first world. here in America there isn't a whole heck of a lot left up to luck. so pretending that we are all twisting in the wind in the first world is ridiculous. it's just that we make ourselves feel helpless by overlooking opportunities what others would kill to have. and when they do manage to come here they do much better than americans because they don't give up as easily.

outliers is full of fallacies and exclusions. but even a fat person can have many of the benefits the author mentions that successful people have. even if you want to take his word for everything being fat does not exclude you from coming from wealth, privilege, or having a family with access. even he knows that there is more than ONE thing at work. and the level of mega success that he talks about doesn't exclude people termed as clinically obese either. you need to look some stuff up.

I actually feel sorry for anyone who claims to be ambitious and really thinks their fat absolutely has to be such a huge deterrent. or perhaps they really aren't all that ambitious but just looking for one big easy excuse to fail since they are spending valuable time and energy on what could stop them instead of doing actually something that could put more in their favor. perhaps it would be more honest for them to say they don't want it. there is no shame in not being interested in putting in everything it takes to be super successful. it's not the life for everyone. some people find other things more important to their personal happiness. 

it's weird taking advice from authors who couldn't even manage good enough grades to get into grad school or even achieve a level of super success for himself. you would be better served reading something written by Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates-- the people who actually did it. they have an entirely different take.

also his book does speak to the average professional jobs that you claim fat people can't get yet somehow have. he says very succinctly that it comes down to being able to complete your work in twenty hours a week for ten years. I think he calls it a ten thousand hour rule. and that is pretty much true. most of the time for anything, including getting the job, more than half of the battle is showing up. the problem with a lot of people is that they often scare themselves out of showing up. in his book "the talent myth" he talks about how narcissists often win. they win because they show up and they aren't afraid to toot their own horns and they aren't stymied by fear. they certainly do believe in themselves even when under qualified. 

but actually most of his observations do not apply to most jobs because a boss is not going to put his/her neck on the line if your stats make them look bad or they can lose their job just because you can look the part. and the further away we get from 50s corporate mentality the more that is true. it's profits that run things and always have. if you can't figure out how to get them you are toast no matter what you look like. there are lots of people today who have a lot of corporate success but they don't go to anybody's office at all. many don't even really wear suits anymore. and nobody actually knows WHAT they look like. I deal with them every day in my position and they have huge incomes. 

BTW there is a fat major bank VP, a hugely well known female marketing genius and others all the way from the east to the west coast right here on dims. there are many others actually doing all of the jobs you claim fat people can't even get but they wouldn't tell you that.


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## ChickletsBBW (Dec 21, 2014)

I think there's a bit of both now days.

There seems to be more large people so society is having an easier time saying rude things to people of size, but also, there are things that are a bit more accommodating than in the past. Austin USED to be much more size friendly but in the past 10 years it is NOT anymore. Since we have Lance Armstrong here, Austin has become much more "health conscious" and it's more annoying to be in public where people still stare and crack jokes, even sometimes right next to you, which unfortunately shows their immaturity but.. it is what it is.

I do agree there are still many things that haven't changed as mentioned earlier like the size of airplane seats, even some theater seats and other things were mentioned as well. 
Plus, I still do agree that I've lost many opportunities to further my career only due to my size, even though I was best qualified. I've also found that to be a fact that part of it is because I'm a woman (a fat woman at that), not a man.

I'm not really sure how big men were affected years ago.. but I honestly don't see/hear as much rudeness towards big guys as I do with big women. I have seen lots of bigger guys with women, and married too. I've seen big guys with thin and big women. I just honestly think it's more acceptable for a guy to be bigger than it is for a woman to be bigger but that is just from my observation. Until I got on the site, I had no idea there was something specific for female FA's that specifically like only larger men so kudos to them  

My older brother is a big guy and has been all his life... I've always thought he was a handsome guy and never has had any problem meeting women (he's married now) so perhaps that's why my observations of bigger guys is how it is.

I am very "size accepting" meaning I honestly don't care what size you are, doesn't bother me one way or the other if you're thin or big. What matters to me is your personality. That's the one thing that usually makes or breaks how I feel about a person.

You could be miss thin "beauty queen of whatever" and have an extremely ugly personality and well.. that just makes you ugly in general in my opinion.
Same goes with a larger women that I hear nothing but bad mouthing about this and that and also they bad mouth thin women, just because they are thin... well, to me, that makes them an ugly person because of their ugly personality.
And of course, same thing goes with men of both sizes.

I know society will most likely never change as a whole although I hope it will someday. We are all different and that's what makes us each unique. I don't want to look just like "XYZ" because I want to be ME and have my own looks and my own personality and be unique.

I'm also not stupid. I know quite well, and personally too, that being extra heavy is not generally healthy. (I'm sure someone will try to negate this) However, the fact is it's been proven over and over. So yes, would I like to be healthier? yes.. and yes it's not good on my body structure to be this heavy. HOWEVER... I do love myself for WHO I am and I don't hate my size and I'm not ashamed of myself in any way. It took a long time for me to be able to say to myself in the mirror that I'm pretty. Its my opinion and its the only one that matters. Yes, we all have our ugly days and sometimes it's harder to say "I'm pretty" to myself but it's something that I think ALL plus-sized people should remember to do. 

If a person has no self-esteem, the rest of the world picks up on that VERY quickly and if they notice it, many will take advantage of that and try to put you down just to make themselves feel better, which is pathetic but it's true. 

As for those that have weight loss surgery... I really have a hard time with a lot of folks in the Dims community because they frown upon it. Well... "get over it" is my opinion.
Some people need the surgery usually for health reasons and when someone has it for those reasons alone, you should support them, not try to tell them don't do it. 
We all know the risks involved and they don't need to be reminded of that.

And for those that have had WLS, don't forget you were once a larger person and don't you DARE crack jokes at larger people because in essence, you're saying all that nasty stuff to yourself since you used to own those same shoes. Also.. a quick reminder for those that have had the WLS, don't forget your friends just because you may be a smaller size now... friends come in all sizes and if you decide you're "too good" to hang around your old "fat" friends... you're loosing some great friends and you will be one of those people that has an ugly personality because you've chosen to get rid of your "fat friends" because you're not longer fat. All I should say is *tisk*tisk* to you 

Ok.. off my rant


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## YoJoshua (Dec 21, 2014)

yewande_ said:


> There's nothing wrong with that I'm doing though, why would I have to ask for permission?



You don't have to ask permission. 

Welcome.


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## bigmac (Dec 21, 2014)

SuperO, do you realize your position has been used (and continues to be used) to justify the second class status of African Americans? According to your argument black income, and even more importantly black wealth, remain substantially below that of whites because blacks have not properly prepared themselves to take advantage of opportunities (i.e. its the fault of individual black people). For the record and so there is no misunderstanding I believe that this argument is total BS.

Obviously black people and fat people do have jobs. The real question is -- if they had been white and/or thin would they have a better job? 

The facts are sad: _African-American students need to have substantially more education to have the same probability of getting a job as their white peers_.

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/

A black man with a clean record has the same chance of getting hired as a white felon.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

The same sort of thing is true for fat people. 

If given the hypothetical choice between spending 100K to go to college or spending 100K on a magic pill to turn him white a purely economic argument could be made that a young black man's money would be better spent on the latter.

WLS actually gives fat people this choice -- for better or worse. My friend, the cell phone executive, recouped her WLS "investment" in less than a year. It will take about three or four years for my wife to recoup her WLS expenses (she lost more weight so reconstructive costs were higher and she works in the public sector where salaries are lower).

The forgoing is a purely economic analysis. I take no position on whether or not this is the right or moral thing to do.


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## superodalisque (Dec 21, 2014)

bigmac said:


> SuperO, do you realize your position has been used (and continues to be used) to justify the second class status of African Americans? According to your argument black income, and even more importantly black wealth, remain substantially below that of whites because blacks have not properly prepared themselves to take advantage of opportunities (i.e. its the fault of individual black people). For the record and so there is no misunderstanding I believe that this argument is total BS.
> 
> Obviously black people and fat people do have jobs. The real question is -- if they had been white and/or thin would they have a better job?
> 
> ...



um no. it's not the same when fat people's position are equal in proportion to their population. fat people have NEVER been denied suffrage or souls. they've never been enslaved as a group. they haven't been denied marriage or their children sold away. so the comparison is ridiculous and paranoid. to say the least it's a bad analogy. 

you keep speaking in personal anecdotes while the actual stats speak differently in overall numbers. I know which I trust. but if we believe you and stop moving forward with our lives and whine and submit to what you seem to think must be inevitable for ever fat person we will eventually be treated the same as a slave in america. accepting inferiority in situations where it does not exist doesn't help. and certainly accepting it where it does doesn't help. I wonder what you think your position can actually accomplish for fat people at all? 

View attachment 1972291_10152239888553908_899318350_n.jpg


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## bigmac (Dec 22, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> um no. it's not the same when fat people's position are equal in proportion to their population. fat people have NEVER been denied suffrage or souls. they've never been enslaved as a group. they haven't been denied marriage or their children sold away. so the comparison is ridiculous and paranoid. to say the least it's a bad analogy.
> 
> you keep speaking in personal anecdotes while the actual stats speak differently in overall numbers. I know which I trust. but if we believe you and stop moving forward with our lives and whine and submit to what you seem to think must be inevitable for ever fat person we will eventually be treated the same as a slave in america. accepting inferiority in situations where it does not exist doesn't help. and certainly accepting it where it does doesn't help. I wonder what you think your position can actually accomplish for fat people at all?



While African Americans have unquestionably suffered far more persecution than fat people for the purposes of this thread the analogy holds. When interviewing for jobs and applying for promotions fat people and black people are similarly situated in that there is a significant probability that their status as a member of either class will be held against them.

I'm wondering -- what statistics actually support your position?

Also, acknowledging obvious obstacles in no way implies that one shouldn't strive to both change the situation and better one's self. Both are actually easier to do if you acknowledge the facts on the ground.


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## superodalisque (Dec 25, 2014)

i'v e posted stats like this that can be googled anywhere but since you insist:

*Fat Doctors Make Fat Patients Feel Better, And Worse ... - NPR*www.npr.org/.../fat-doctors-make-fat-patients-feel-better-and-worse

Jun 5, 2013 - Overweight patients say they feel doctors do a better job of weight loss ... that 51 percent of primary care providers are overweight or obese.
excerpt:

Odds are pretty good of getting a non-svelte doctor, no matter what you weigh. Bleich's 2012 study found that 51 percent of primary care providers are overweight or obese. That's a wee bit better than the 66 percent in the general population, but not by much. 


regarding CEOs as I said it is more of a problem of sexism than sizism. if it was just sizism fat men would have similar numbers but they don't. women are not supposed to be physically imposing. it is seen as some kid of a threat whereas men are allowed to be physically imposing. so it is not so much anti fat as anti female. it's a problem to people if we don't look or act weak. it's important to know the difference and why because the problem isn't fat alone. 

*Do I have to be OVERWEIGHT…..to be an effective CEO?*

ah2andbeyond.com/overweight-effective-ceo/

“The research study, co-authored by Mark Roehling, Michigan State University professor, and Patricia Roehling, professor of psychology at Hope College in Holland, Michigan, found that only 5 percent of male and female CEOs at top U.S. companies were obese with a body mass index (BMI) over 30. This is much lower than the U.S. average percentage of obese men and women, which is currently at 36% (men) and 38% (women) for the same age group. However, the most shocking study finding was that *“between 45 percent and 61 percent of top male CEOs are overweight (BMI between 25 and 29)” but “only 5 percent &#8211; 22 percent of top female CEOs were overweight.” *Stated the researchers, “This reflects a greater tolerance and possibly even a preference for a larger size among men but a smaller size among women.”




another study comparing a fat looking man to a powerful man. 
*Do Fat CEO Faces Equal Fat Profits? | TIME.com*

business.time.com/2011/09/08/do-fat-ceo-faces-equal-fat-profits/
Time

In the November issue of the journal Psychological Science, a new study suggests that CEOs with wider faces achieve much greater financial performance than CEOs with thinner mugs.


Before you make your own face, there’s some legitimate science behind it. For the last few years, *a number of studies have been published showing that greater facial width-to-height ratio (WHR) is associated with more aggressive behavior in men.* Hockey players with wider faces spend more time in the penalty box. And men with higher facial width often feel more powerful.

“Researchers have theorized that this relationship exists because men with higher facial WHRs are physically (facially) imposing, which minimizes the chance of retribution for their aggressive actions,” says the study’s authors, who compared the photos of 55 male CEOs of publicly traded Fortune 500 organizations.

The idea is that the more powerful CEOs feel, the more they are and the more they tend to look at the big picture rather than focusing on the details. Some specific examples are cited, including General Electric’s broad-faced CEO Jeffery Immelt, who successfully transformed GE into a more eco-friendly company in 2004 despite almost unanimous disapproval of his plans from his leadership team.

While CEO physical characteristics are only correlated with financial performance (not causally linked), there does seem to be a connection between more aggressive leadership and successful organizations.



most of the time when you find a reference to weight you'll find it lumped in with chronic illnesses. not all fat people are chronically ill and people with chronic illnesses aren't necessarily fat. 

oh I found also reference for attorneys that has them around 21% overweight which is about par for the course especially when you consider attorney's are less than 1/2 of a percent of the population and most of them work in a single person law firm. so what you're saying makes no mathematical sense at all. the same is true for other professions like marketing and accounting. you have a very 1990s mindset when it comes to how the professions work. and even then it wasn't true except on t.v.:

According to the American Bar Association there are currently 1,116,967 lawyers practicing in the United States. That is approximately one for every 300 people, or approximately 0.36% of the total population. *These statistics relate only to those currently practicing and maintaining their licenses. There are far more with inactive or retired status.*

Demographic statistics give us a picture of the typical lawyer as Caucasian and male. Roughly 75% are male, and only 25% female. By far, Caucasians comprise the majority of lawyers in the US. 

*Demographic information also informs us that about 75% work in the private sector. The greatest number of lawyers work in their own firm, about 48% with no partners.* Others are most likely to work in either a small firm of two to five members, or a very large firm of over 100. *About 28% either work in a small, or very large firm.*

so when you consider how few attorney's even work in a large or even a medium sized law firm your insistence that they are highly unrepresented due to fat prejudice makes no sense because they aren't even subject to that kind of corporate judgment for the most part. are you really going to pass over yourself because you are fat and have started and are running your own firm. stop spreading the ridiculous and standing in your own way. there is more than one road to success.

you also make no reference to the fact that the fat women you talk about are likely to be or want to be Moms and as we all know the workplace does not favor mothers at all. and guess what? your wife is a Mom. and to them she looks like she has had her children and probably might not have anymore. maybe she has told them that she can't/won't have anymore children after WLS which is an issue for a lot of women who've had the surgery though the medical profession tries to pretend that it can help you to have children even that has not been the case for hardly anyone that I know of. I would be happy if someone could correct me regarding that anecdotal assumption though. 

I think it would help you a lot to get a more multi -dimensional view of what a woman's life is actually like in this country before you make assumptions about size.


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## bmwm2001 (Dec 27, 2014)

i was talking to a bbw friend of mine and she says that she is always paranoid that people she walks past in the street are thinking 'look at her, look at how fat she is, she is really unattractive'.
I am not attracted to thin girls and i dont walk through the street thinking 'look at her, look at how thin she is, she is really unattractive'.
I only look at the woman who catch my eye because i like what i see and everyone else just dissappears into the background.
Most people who are looking at you will be doing so because they are checking you out 
There will always be haters but they will be haters no matter what size you are.


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## Kaleetan (Dec 28, 2014)

There is definitely more fat acceptance now then there was a few decades ago but thin is still seen as the ideal.


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## wrestlingguy (Dec 29, 2014)

The one thing I think has been missed in most of these posts is that while many people are working tirelessly in promoting size acceptance (both on the internet and in real life), generally people have simply become more shitty to each other.

While that has nothing directly to do with size acceptance, it wouldn't be hard to connect the dots and say even with all the work that's been done, the fact that people just aren't as nice today as they were years ago sort of negates a good portion of the work of the size acceptance groups & individuals.

All one has to do is take a look at some of the comments that were made on Whitney Thore's viral dancing video, and my point will be made.


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## EMH1701 (Dec 30, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> so what about all of the movies that can be made without special effects?
> 
> so there are no fat people with good acting skills? fat people are over half the populations now. could there be some talent there?



I said most people do not have good acting skills. I said nothing about specifically fat people. I'm fat, and I couldn't act if my life depended on it.

As for movies without special effects, yeah, you can make them, but will they sell in this day and age?


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## bigmac (Dec 30, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> i'v e posted stats like this that can be googled anywhere but since you insist:
> 
> *Fat Doctors Make Fat Patients Feel Better, And Worse ... - NPR*www.npr.org/.../fat-doctors-make-fat-patients-feel-better-and-worse
> 
> ...



Talk about twisting yourself into knots rather than just admitting reality. All the more perplexing because you're perfectly willing to admit racism and sexism -- but for reasons unknown not fat discrimination.

You claimed you had statistics -- I asked for an offer of proof. However, your latest post proves little. 

Healthy men in the prime of their lives are almost always considered "overweight" if BMI is one's only criteria. The stats you cite combine the "overweight" and "obese" making them basically useless. All they prove is that doctors and CEOs have gym memberships and personal trainers. The only salient fact you cited was the fact that only 5% of CEOs have a BMI over 30 -- which is another way of saying fat CEOs are rare. Indeed I'd wager that even most of the 5% aren't actually fat. I'll use another anecdote -- when I discharged from the Army I weighed 280 pounds at 6'4". According to BMI charts my BMI was 34 which is classified as obese. However my body fat was 18% which is actually on the low side of normal. I am (and was) not unusually muscular (although I'm not a weakling either). Bottom line -- what your stats actually show is that doctors and CEOs are often solidly built.

The broad face stats infer the same. Powerfully built people tend to have broad faces. People in high level positions tend to be powerfully built.

I'm not sure what your point is regarding attorney's.

The fact remains -- being fat makes getting a job and/or getting promoted harder. This doesn't mean people should just give up. It does, however, mean that fat people would be well advised to target employers more likely to be size accepting. For example if you're a fat lawyer (or otherwise unconventional) target public service positions over big firm positions.


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## superodalisque (Jan 3, 2015)

i'm waiting on some can do spirit. be the change. I think this lil baby has it down. he is facing life and he is not laying down or looking at the absolute worse case scenario or being a big ol downer. he has only one leg an infant sized walker and a tiny new prosthetic. he is not talking about what he can't do even though he is pitching and stumbling all over his little walker. he keeps saying "I've got this". I wish more people in our community had that attitude. then maybe they could make it just like he is going to make it. instead we have people doing the equivalent of telling him to lay down and cry because life just may be harder though not impossible.

http://youtu.be/lPCRs-Cn1zA


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## bigmac (Jan 3, 2015)

SuperO why do you think that acknowledging obstacles is the same as giving up? Recognizing the existence of an obstacle is a prerequisite for any mitigation plan. To remove an obstacle or to effectively maneuver around it one must first acknowledge its existence.


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