# Dis-engaged. (long...)



## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

Hi all,

I've been a long-time visitor to the Dimensions forums, coming here ever since I was around 15 or so and the boards looked very different.

Recently, my life has undergone some huge changes, and I needed to talk about them somewhere, anywhere and get some feedback on them. I'm really confused, lonely, and full of heartache.

*TL;DR Version: I split up with my fiancee because she wanted to live with her parents for the next 2 years instead of moving out and take care of her sister's 3 year old son, while her sister moved away. Was I wrong for leaving?*

When I met my fiancee 4 years ago, I was a freshman in college and completely new to college life, but we hit it off immediately. She was very attracted to me, and though it took me a bit longer, I realized I was to her as well. Unfortunately, over the next year, she was forced to return home to Texas from Colorado - where we went to school - due to failing grades and her family's inability to support her further. I was devastated, but because I loved her, I was willing to try a long-distance relationship and continue to make it work.

For the next 2 years, I would only get to see my fiancee once every 2-3 months for about a week at a time, coinciding with breaks from school/work. In the summers, I would move down to be with her (and her family) and work for her parents, who owned a small local paper delivery company in San Antonio, Texas. As far as how the work was, let me just put it this way - I was a delivery truck driver in a truck with no A/C, in the South Texas heat, taking goods out of a warehouse with a tin metal roof and one small rotating fan.

That was how much I wanted to be with her. I once rode a Greyhound bus from Denver to San Antonio because I couldn't afford a plane ticket. In the fall, I would return to college and keep going, confident that once I graduated things would be different.

As everyone knows, LDRs are hugely difficult to keep working. There's a ton of stress put on a relationship when the only contact one has is through the telephone and email. But we made it happen, somehow.

Fast forward to this summer. I graduated from college with a BA in Political Science. I put 4 hard years of work into going to school for a graduate degree and also took the LSAT (scored well) to go to Law School in South Texas. I would gather all my things from my house and the place where I had lived for the past 11 years, say goodbye to my family, friends and after saving up $2,000.00 for an apartment that we could move into once I got down there. I was also signed up for loans for school that would help me pay for any additional expenses that I might have because I was completely on my own, making my own car payments, cell payments, food, etc. The only support I had from my parents following my graduation was car insurance to the tune of about $80 a month. I couldn't even afford health insurance. 

Before I left, we talked about what would happen. Each of us was confident that when we got back to Texas, we'd find an apartment and move out of her house so we wouldn't be living with her family. We drove to Vegas - as part of a summer vacation and celebration of my graduation and the beginning of our new life together - before we made it to San Antonio.

And that's when everything started falling apart.

When we got to San Antonio, I unpacked my belongings and crammed what I could of my stuff into her room, where I envisioned only living for a month, maybe two at the most. It wasn't a big deal for me, as I had been dealing with a similar situation for the past 2 1/2 years over the summers.

However, one big issue for me that contributed to our splitting apart was also present: my fiancee's sister, who was 19, had a 2 year old son. She was a completely, utterly irresponsible mother who lived in her own squalor - picture your worst college roommate and multiply him by 5 - and did virtually nothing to indicate that she would be capable of taking care of a child. She had a GED, no desire to return to college (after failing two courses at the local community college, Speech and Drama - I kid you not) and was constantly out very late, even during nights when the baby would awaken and be screaming for someone to come hold him. Frequently, it would be me, my fiancee or her parents who would wake up from 2-4am and rock with him until he went back to sleep. Meanwhile, my fiancee's sister was out drinking/partying and nowhere to be found.

So, the responsibility of caring for the baby fell on her parents - and us. One thing about my fiancee is that she was a very loving and caring individual, and seeing as how her sister was incapable, took on much of the responsibility of caring for the baby. Again, though he was a wonderful child, I was *not* ready for the responsibility of being a father figure to a baby that wasn't mine at 22 years old and said as much to her.

Fast forward to midway through this summer. There's a lot of strain on our relationship, we're not having sex with one another as often as we used to (going as long as 3 weeks without being intimate), we hardly talk, and one night it comes to a head. We have a long conversation about everything that'd been bothering us, so I laid it out for her:

- I had saved up $2,000.00 and was willing to take loans out to move out into an apartment. She was still $1,200.00 in debt from a speeding ticket that she neglected to pay off and did not tell me about, but was starting to pay it off finally.

- We hardly talked. It felt often like we were two people living in separate rooms and only sharing the same bed, frequently because she would devote much of her energy to spending time with the baby and then be too tired to do anything else.

- Our sex life was virtually nonexistant while we lived in the house. Though she was a BBW and I always praised her on how beautiful she was - she even modelled, for a time, on one of the paysites on this board - she still suffered from self-esteem issues and didn't like the way she looked even after years of my support. Sometimes, when we were intimate, I like to fantasize/roleplay about her being fatter, and had done so for about 2 years, when she told me during this conversation that it was a big turn-off and that she felt that losing weight would make her feel prettier. That was a huge kick in the gut, the first time she had ever mentioned it to me, but I never brought it up again. Not only that, but the room that we were in was *directly above her parent's bedroom*, which made her very unwilling to do anything, even foreplay. When I brought this up, she said "Well, I guess sex is more important to you than it is to me. I don't keep track." Ouch.

- Finally, and perhaps what tipped me over the edge, was when she told me that she wanted to stay at home for another two years while she finished Nursing school so she wouldn't have to incur any debt.

I was crushed. I had moved my whole life to South Texas from Colorado, saved up $2,000.00, maintained a long distance relationship for 2 1/2 years, lived with her family for the same time off and on, been a father figure for her sister's baby (her sister did not know who the father was, and he never contacted her), was willing to adopt a new *RELIGION* for her (she was Jewish, I am atheistic but I would convert before we married) and left the place that I had come to love for the past 11 years behind.

During the whole period when I had been socking away money just so we could leave so we didn't have to deal with "living at home" any more, she was constantly being overdrawn and facing overdraft charges at the bank, had a $1,200 speeding ticket unpaid and not only that - 

Her car, insurance, cell phone bill and tuition at school was being paid for completely by her parents. Even with zero expenses, she couldn't commit herself to saving money for a place for the both of us. I was also told that *her sister, the mother of the the baby, would be leaving the state to work in Colorado (natch) and her parents would retain custody.* So not only would we be living at home, but the mother of the baby would be gone, and the responsibility for his care would fall on me, my fiancee, her parents and her younger sister who was still in high school while the mother got to go live somewhere else. My fiancee's parents even paid for her sister's plane ticket. Why they continue to bail her out after putting them through so much is mind-boggling to me. :doh: If anything, it was the sign of a completely dysfunctional family. I was happy that she'd be gone and take her mess with her, but at the same time, it was equivalent to abandoning her child - supported by her parents - and dropping a ton of responsibility on two engaged 22 year olds.

At that point, something in me changed. I felt like I had sacrificed so much for her and completely changed my life, for her alone, and she wasn't willing to do something, now that I was living in Texas, that we had planned on for months. She wanted me to stay in an environment that was completely unbearable for me (her house, with her family) and be a role model/father figure for her sister's baby, which she had essentially co-opted - for the next *2 years*.

So, two days ago, I had had enough. Rather than just split, I sat down with her father, whom I was working for, and told him the truth. I said to him that I was moving back to Colorado, and I needed to figure out where I was going. I had already withdrawn my loans and application for law school, and had some of my belongings already packed in the trunk of my car. He nodded, solemnly, but he told me that I needed to pack my things up, tell my fiancee that day, and go. He hoped I "Found my path" and walked out of the restaurant that we were at.

I told my fiancee to meet me at a Starbucks after work and told her that I was moving back to Colorado because I couldn't take living at home any more. 

Our last, paraphrased conversation, shortened:

 - I can't live at home anymore. I'm moving home to Colorado.

 - What are you going to do about school and loans?

 - I already withdrew my application and cancelled my loans. I can't live at home with your parents anymore.

 - So are we breaking up? Are we calling off the engagement?

 - If that's what you want to do, then we will. I still love you, but I can't be somewhere that will make me resent you and be completely unhappy. I can't be a father figure for your sister's son at 22 years old.

  - Get the fuck out of my car, right now. Get the fuck out. I hate you so much right now.

And she drove off. I drove to Abilene for the night, rested, and arrived in Colorado yesterday.

I feel absolutely terrible. I still love her, a lot, and after nearly 4 years of a relationship my heart aches for doing what I did. She was heartbroken, and I could tell.

But I couldn't be a dad to a baby that wasn't mine and stay in that house for another 2 years, because I knew what would eventually happen is that she and I would become responsible for the child as her parents are nearing their 60s. In 10 years, I could easily see us having sole custody of the baby.

So now I'm at a huge crossroads in my life. I'm no longer engaged to a girl that I still love but can't be with, no longer in school (at least for now, I can always return - my score on the LSAT was good enough), have returned home to live with MY parents until I can figure out an apartment, have to find a full-time job with little professional experience and don't know what I will be doing. I'm now single for the first time in 4 years and have the most uncomfortable, strange mix of hope, guilt, fear, excitement, remorse and determination running through my body.

Everyone I've talked to - my whole family included - believes I made the right choice, even if I feel absolutely terrible about breaking her heart. Even one of HER good friends, a guy I had come to know, understands and supports my decision, and called me to tell me so. He said that he couldn't stand being around her family either.

In the end, it came down to me bending over backward to make our relationship work - maintaining a LDR, moving from my home state away from my family, friends and home, restricting my finances so I could explicitly save for our own living space, being willing to convert to a different religion and pushing myself into graduate school when I wasn't sure that's what I wanted to do immediately after college - and she didn't want to follow through on the one thing I really wanted from her, that being her "leaving the nest" and living with me in our own place, even if it meant she would have to incur some debt.

So I ask you, if you've made it this far, what would you have done in my situation, given all the above details? Was I wrong? Should I have waited longer to see if I could have "stuck it out"? How would you have approached the situation?

Where do I go from here?

With love to the community - 

Bolder


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## AnnMarie (Aug 16, 2007)

Wow, Boulder, I'm so sorry for everything that's gone on, for both you... really. 

Obviously we only have one side of the story here, but giving you the benefit of the doubt to provide most of the information accurately... I'd say you made the only choice you really had, and it's just too bad you weren't able to know her choices about staying home much sooner so you could have saved the move. 

From what you've said (again, one side only) it seems you are the one who planned and sacrificed everything through every step to make this relationship work. Unfortunately, when someone doesn't have to work hard for something (meaning her, according to your post) it makes them more like to not realize what they have and cherish it and work towards it as well. 

It's possible she was having changing feelings and used the nursing school and staying home as a catalyst for change, who knows. 

Anyway, I'm sorry this was the result, it's never good to see a relationship end where you had so many hopes and dreams, but if it's best for you (sounds like it is) then you have to have faith that you made the right choice for YOU. Unfortunately in taking care of our own lives, we often have to hurt people we care about... but you have to come first. 

Best to you both.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

AM,

Thank you for the prompt, thoughtful reply.

I understand that it's only one side of the story - and I'm know she has her perspective as well - but I've not fabricated anything or left anything out that would significantly affect the story. I never once cheated on her during the whole course of our LDR, never lied to her, and never was anything but completely supportive of her and her choices even after she failed out of our college.

If at the beginning of the summer, after my graduation, she had told me that we would be living with her parents for the next 2 years, I would have had a completely different response and may not even have gone. As I said in the original post, everything we'd talked about told me that she would be ready to move out, *this* summer. At the same time though, I think she feels like I broke up with her because she wouldn't burden herself with debt - through some personal loans, since she couldn't save up the money herself - to realize our plans for a different living situation. Not a year from now, not 2 years from now, but immediately. This summer. Not dawdling and waiting for more months.

What I've theorized, I suppose, is that she was uncomfortable with adopting the same level of financial responsibility that I did. While her parents frequently bailed her out - if she needed an extra $200 her, or she was overdrafted there, etc. - they always did. I never had that safety net and have been paying for my own things since I was about 17.

Plus, she's a very gentle, loving girl and has always wanted children. Her sister's son provided that need and she knew that she would be doing a lot of work to take care of him from the day he was born. Maybe by pushing her to "leave the nest" it seemed to her, subconsciously, like I was trying to separate her from "her baby".

*sigh*

-Bolder


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## moore2me (Aug 16, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> Hi all,
> 
> So I ask you, if you've made it this far, what would you have done in my situation, given all the above details?
> 
> ...




Be resolute - don't go back - go forward.


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## AnnMarie (Aug 16, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> AM,
> 
> Thank you for the prompt, thoughtful reply.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to be clear for you... I didn't mean you'd left out anything bad you'd done or anything at all. I really did only mean the general idea of only hearing one side so that my reactions are based solely on what you've shared. I didn't want to accuse or attack anything without making it clear that I do realize there is always another side... even if we don't know it. 

I have no doubt she's a great girl or you wouldn't have spent all that time in a difficult (LDR) relationship with her... but the way things were described I really don't see that you had another choice. You've got a whole life to live and you have to make sure you're pursuing happiness.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

> I would have walked out long before you did. (Note: In a similar situation, I actually went back a few times, but none of these worked out either. Things just got worse.) You are right to be reluctant to get involved with her sister's son as well. I'm sure the boy needs a father figure - but, if you feel that you're not the right man - trust your instincts. And, if you do get attached to him, you would have no legal rights, if his dad shows up - he would.
> 
> No & No. Sounds like you stuck it out too long. You lost a couple of years of your young life. That's a pretty hefty price. Just be glad you got out when you did before you & your girlfriend married & had your own children.
> 
> ...



My sincerest thanks for the reply, moore.

I would say that it's not so much that I'm not the right man, but that I don't feel that I was ready, at 22 years old to be a father. I would love to have children, eventually. When my fiancee and I had spoken about children, we'd each agreed that we didn't want to be parents until we were at least 25-26 and completely done with school. Maybe that's the same thing. The father is a complete unknown. By all accounts, her sister was drunk at the time of conception and does not know where (or really, I suspect, who) the father is. In 3 years he had made no contact with her.

I also think about what might have happened had I stayed and been married and realized 3, 5, 10 years down the road what a mistake I had made. Instead of throwing my things in the car, driving 950 miles home and being filled with indecision, I would have been facing a messy divorce, alimony, and potentially child custody issues.

One of the reasons I was so ready to leave Colorado, my home, was that I was getting out from under my parents who, while nice, also drive me batshit crazy sometimes. I'm living with them, temporarily, until I figure out where to go from here. If my fiancee had told me I'd simply be going from my parents to hers - again, after living with them off and on for months at a time for the past 2 1/2 years - for the next 2 years, I would have said no to ever going down to San Antonio.

I know I have to move on, at some point. A part of me really wants to stay open to her and let her know that I still love and care for her, and hopes that she realizes that I had no malice in my actions, but that I couldn't live with her family anymore and be the role model/father that she wanted me to be. I still want to make it work, but as time moves on and I see things change, I see the chance for that fading away. Every little reminder that I have of her right now is like a knife in my heart that just adds to the guilt of my leaving. I've definitely been grieving. I've cried several times over my decision and been in near tears while driving away (not very safe, I might add).

In any case, right now, I suppose, I just need the support of my friends, family, and people I love to get me through this.

-Bolder


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## Tad (Aug 16, 2007)

Wow, first of all, I wish I could take you our for a for a night of beer and talk, cause I don't think many people on the planet could use it right now more than you.

Second, here's my mental image of relationships. Imagine two tree branches, each growing in their own direction. They meet, and somehow stick together. With luck, each branch bends partway towards the other's path, and they can keep growing together. But sometimes that just can't happen, and as they grow the pressure trying to pull them apart gets higher and higher.

You bent a lot. She maybe was bending a lot in her own way, I can't say. But in the end, you did not end up growing in the same direction. Eventually that was going to tear you apart.

Now who knows, maybe with some time and space, you'll both bend more, and something may be possible. Maybe not. But it sure sounds like right now you were in different places, going different directions.

Just in her defense, she may have seen her actions as being responsible, your's as being pie-in-the-sky. Of course staying at home to save money was responsible. Of course taking care of her sister's baby was responsible. Of course putting other things before sex was responsible. Of course trying to be thinner rather than fatter was responsible. Moving out with no real income? Impractical! Moving out and leaving her parents with the baby? Cruel and cowardly! Putting bawdy pleasures before being a good daughter? sinful! and so on. Not saying that was how she saw things, just one way that she may have seen them. The thing is, if this was how she saw things, if you extrapolate to how she probably would have ideally liked you to behave....I doubt it was anything that would have made you happy, or made for a happy relationship.

Anyway, I really feel for you--and for her. This has to have been rough on both of you.

So yah, talk here, talk to friends back home, find some work, look at schools....basically keep busy and see where things go.

One quick thought on work: I bet you could find temp positions for now. It would bring in some income, let you see some companies, and for right now it would not be too demanding, which might be good while you work things out. 

Best of luck.

-Ed


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## kr7 (Aug 16, 2007)

Bolder,

Your situation was beyond complicated. The one thing that jumped out at me from your story was that the two of you had vastly different priorities. This is not to say that one of you was right and the other wasn't. I am simply trying to say that your paths have diverged so much, somewhere along the way, that you were no longer on the same journey. I am sorry this has happened, and IMO, there was nothing else you could do.

Chris


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## CrankySpice (Aug 16, 2007)

Not much to add, other than to hang in there and be kind to your self. You know you made the right decision for yourself, but it is never easy to know that what you need for you will hurt other people. I'm so sorry for that. Give yourself some time to heal and at least you can still look back and be grateful for the good times--many people don't seem to get beyond the bad endings. ((hugs)) from a stranger, hope you feel better soon.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

> Just in her defense, she may have seen her actions as being responsible, your's as being pie-in-the-sky. Of course staying at home to save money was responsible. Of course taking care of her sister's baby was responsible. Of course putting other things before sex was responsible. Of course trying to be thinner rather than fatter was responsible. Moving out with no real income? Impractical! Moving out and leaving her parents with the baby? Cruel and cowardly! Putting bawdy pleasures before being a good daughter? sinful! and so on. Not saying that was how she saw things, just one way that she may have seen them. The thing is, if this was how she saw things, if you extrapolate to how she probably would have ideally liked you to behave....I doubt it was anything that would have made you happy, or made for a happy relationship.



You know, Ed, I think that's probably the most insightful analysis of how she's probably feeling that I've had so far in my talks with my family and friends about the situation. I think she really thinks that my desire to leave the house and take on some additional debt so we could be on our own, even if it meant bending for me, as you put it, was something that she wasn't wanting to proceed with.

Also, this isn't to say that she had no real income. She did. She worked at a full time job, $11/hr, at a pediatrician's office over the summers. However, during the school year, she did not want to work at all (I was willing to go to graduate school part time and still work). 

Really, I think your description is probably a spot on look into how she sees the situation. She wanted me to be a role model for the baby, continue to wait for 2 more years for her to get financially stablized while she lives at home - again, while she has no overhead and I do - be less focused on our sexual life as part of the relationship and go to graduate school immediately.

No part of any of those things would have made me happy.

-Bolder


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## Tad (Aug 16, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> No part of any of those things would have made me happy.



And with that thought fresh in your head, I'd suggest grabbing a nap  Time to start de-compressing.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

Cranky, kr7, thank you for your replies.

kr7, I think that it wasn't so much that we had vastly different priorities so much as that she was basing all of her decisions on the assumption that I would simply accede to all of the extra burdens of fatherhood and living with her parents that I would simply tough out. It was extremely complicated, especially since I had grown so interconnected with her parents and family as well.

-Bolder


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## Risible (Aug 16, 2007)

Tough situation, Bolder. I can only imagine your heartache.

I think you did the right thing, putting yourself first. After all, it is your life.

However, at her age, living at home and attending to education/career, and most of all, taking care of and responsibility for her nephew, who sounds to be essentially parentless, are all admirable qualities. I can't say I blame her for making her choices. Perhaps in ten years, things would have been very different for her as well.

Perhaps you can break off the engagement, but keep the door open for future development?


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Aug 16, 2007)

Know what? I'm pretty much exactly where you are. Don't let yourself get too bitter. This is the real point you can start looking out for you and work on becoming the person that everyone is incredibly jealous of - the secure single person. Does it suck that you may not be lined up for any perfect romances? Yes. Very much. Does it suck that you put in a lot of effort for little to nothing in return from the person you changed your life for? FUCK YES. 

Look, I admire people who try hard to make it work, but there is a time to throw in the towel and let the other person pick it up. You did your best. It's over. Romance is hardly the most important thing in life, and I promise you, in a month or two, you will realize how insignificant someone or something that seemed to be the beginning and end of your own world can really be. PM me if you need someone to talk about this with.


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## Tooz (Aug 16, 2007)

I sort of have something relevant to say. I wasn't engaged, but I WAS in a long-term relationship with someone I had to just sever ties with. It got that bad. TSL talks about being a "secure, single person"-- that is a crucial concept, I think. When I walked away from that relationship, I told myself I was not going to seek a relationship out, I was just going to live. It might have been an easier thing for me to do because I have spent most of my life as a single female, but it came to me pretty quickly. That being said, I don't think you were wrong to leave. If you cannot live in a room above her parents' room for two years, you can't. It's hard to compromise on being a father figure to a child, as well-- and seeing as she wasn't willing to compromise, it kind of seems like that's that. Sometimes, you just can't meet in the middle. I know it's only one side of the story, but on the same coin, it does kind of seem like she was asking a lot of you.

Short answer: I don't think "sticking it out" would have gotten you anywhere. Where should you go from here? Well, I guess no one is stopping you from going back to her with your tail between your legs, but working on getting by on your own seems like a viable option.


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## Scrumptious_voluptuous (Aug 16, 2007)

When I was engaged to my ex, I was from a pretty dysfunctional family. I was heavily in debt. I basically was in the same situation as your girlfriend, and my partner was in the same situation as you. (complete with starting with a LDR!)

After 4 years, we split up. A month later, he had doubts. We tried it again, but this time, I told him to go, and not look back. It was the best thing I ever did for him.

4 years later, he's happy with someone else, she raves about him and I'm very glad they're happy.

I've gotten myself sorted as well. Im independant, much better with money, and a hell of a lot more responsible than I ever would have been. I have a lot more self esteem and now I appreciate relationships.

Your situation reflects how we were SO much, I just know you've made the right move. I hope that makes sense. And I wish you luck.


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## Sandie S-R (Aug 16, 2007)

Boulder,

You seem like a pretty honest, straight forward guy. And taking what you say at face value, it sounds like you were facing a pretty difficult situation. It also sounds like you did the only thing you could do, and still be able to face yourself in the mirror every morning.

Anytime you compromise your integrity, your dreams or your needs for someone elses, it never works out. You obviously made a tough decision, but the bottom line is, you could not stay there the way it was. There seemed to be no way around the situation. So it seems like you did what you had to do. The hard part is always living with those decisions.

Hang in there. You'll make peace with it, and move on.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

My thanks to everyone who's responded so far with their advice and thoughts.

If I may, I'm posting a response I received from her father after I wrote him an email today expressing how I would like to keep communication open.

My email:



> Bob -
> 
> Before I left, I feel as though there are some things left unsaid. Of everyone in the family aside from S, I thought the relationship that I have with you was the strongest and that we had a unique connection in our own way, from sports to science to business.
> 
> ...



And his response to me:



> My response is simple: Run away Groom
> 
> You didnt treat S respectfully--I mean after 3 1/2 years of going together--5 minutes in Starbucks and 10 minutes in the parking lot. You didnt take the time to discuss this with her at all--and then break off the engagement because in your mind the pressure was too great. Be a man and treat her the way you would want to be treated yourself. If you don't think the engagement is off--then look again--because you walked out on a terrific person with no thought as to what the ramifications would be by returning so quickly to Colorado.
> 
> ...



Yeah. I didn't expect stars and rainbows from him, given that it was his daughter, but I still don't see any comprehension from him about the situation that I was faced with. The reason why I spent "5 minutes in the parking lot and 10 minutes at Starbucks" were twofold: one, I asked her to meet me at Starbucks so I could talk with her in a place that wouldn't be near her family, and in the parking lot because after I told her that I wanted to go back to Colorado, she started walking back to her car and turned her back to me. I followed, got in the car, and told her how I felt about the situation. After 10 minutes, the conversation I explained in the original post occurred, and she told me to get out of her car - so I did.

I just thought I'd provide the "other side".

-Bolder


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## PolarKat (Aug 16, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> Hi all,
> So I ask you, if you've made it this far, what would you have done in my situation, given all the above details? Was I wrong? Should I have waited longer to see if I could have "stuck it out"? How would you have approached the situation?
> 
> Where do I go from here?
> Bolder


I don't want to comment on the past, as other pointed out, it's much more complex, in reality such things can't be summerized in a post or two for even 1 side. 
I suggest for both of your benefits, that you just move on. It's not a matter of trying to rehash the scenario, and trying to find if there's fault, or place blame, or even trying to rationalize it. Don't try to look for comfort in replaying this event in your mind, trying to see the different scenarios. It's been done, and pondering over it is a waste of time. Do what you have to do, go out drinking with your friends and vent, then get yourself back on the right path, and go back to school...


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## supersoup (Aug 16, 2007)

point blank...it friggin sucks. i was in your shoes once. i was engaged to someone i loved very very much, but things just changed. there were major tensions between us for three or four months, we'd bring up the issues that bothered each of us and it always dissolved into a fight. he wanted things from me that i needed time to give him...he wanted kids, a house, all that, and i did too, just not then, i was too young. we both wanted to finish school, get good jobs, but he changed and his timetable for things was just insane for me. he said he understood yet he threw it in my face all the time, and turned into a man i know longer knew; jealous, moody, angry. people change, especially younger folks, and your family obligations and life decisions alter as well. he came to get me one weekend, it was a family picnic of his that day. i sat down and his mom came over and said 'mandy, i know you are going to hurt him, but please, do it as gently as possible, and don't drag it out.' she knew. i felt like a fucking asshole, and i had to talk to him right then. we sat in his car for over two hours...crying, sitting in silence, screaming at each other, talking, just everything. he ended up telling me that he hated me and didn't want to waste another breath on me and made me get out of his car. his best friend drove me home that night, it was a 3 hour ride...and he told me that he still considered me his little sister and understood where i was coming from, but that the situation just sucked. i felt like the most awful human on the planet for doing what i did to him. i still do actually. to be perfectly honest, i couldn't help but thinking that before he had the chance to do it to me, i wanted to be the asshole, i wanted to at least save him from that role. but things just changed for me and i realized that i could not just stick it out and hope that things got back to how they were. he didn't deserve that, and neither did i. no one deserves a half assed relationship, and that's what it would have been. 

you did what you had to do dude. it fucking sucks, and it's going to hurt. for quite a while actually. but from me to you, it was your only option. only you know what you will and won't stand for, and what your breaking point is. 

good luck to you sir, only time will heal your heart.


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## Scrumptious_voluptuous (Aug 16, 2007)

Hang on, Have I gotten the wrong end of the stick here?

"If you wanted to not live with us--you could have got a full time job and got an apartment-still withdrawing from law school--but then it raises a question from R and I as to what would your future look like--how could you provide for our daughter? And then to think that S would split the expenses with you? Take out a loan? What the hell are you thinking about anyway? It seems your parents dont provide you with any financial support, but let me make it quite clear that we pay her car, insurance, school, expenses, clothing etc.. We feel that this is enough. So if you wanted to get an apartment, you could have made that commitment on your own. We also made it clear, we werent sure how much S could work when school started againand we were ready to step up to the plate to help her meet her expenses, above and beyond what were are doing at presentunlike your parents, I might add."


So he's basically saying 'live with us, or we wont be happy with you seeing our daughter'...

He lists all the stuff they help her out with...But yeah, you have to pay the rent on the apartment, when you don't get any help..which means giving up law school. But if you do THAT, then they don't trust you will go BACK into law school and 'provide for our daughter'.
Surely she's old enough to start providing for herself? (I don't know anyone who needed their parents to buy their clothing after the age of 16)

I'm sorry, but it sounds like they want you to give her what they're giving her...and you just can't. Don't let him guilt trip you. This girl needs a life of her own and the parents aren't helping.

(In a year's time, He'll probably turn round to her and say 'Hey! Whatever happened to Boulder? He was a good catch...')

Go to law school, and if she has her life so sorted, then she can come and visit _you_, spend _her_ holidays working to afford it, just like you did to her.


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## ScreamingChicken (Aug 16, 2007)

*I made it clear to you at the time you wanted to be engaged--no wedding until education was over and a commitment to convert--and S's education isn't over yet and I haven't heard one thing about conversion. S is on a path to accomplish something in her lifetime--she could be a Nurse Practitioner or Physician's Assistant--why should she have her dreams derailed because you can't figure out what you want in life. Please take that indecision elsewhere--but keep it out of my front door. Why should a bright person like S not have the chance to finish her education--she has parents committed to that ideal
*

Bolder, when I read this part , I couldn't help but think that you really dodged a bullett. It gave me the impression that your ex-future in laws are control freaks. I also picked up on hints of materialism and elitism in the rest of the e-mail. Consider yourself lucky it's over now.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

Basically.

I thought that whole paragraph was entirely ridiculous and contradictory myself and further reinforced my belief that her parents simply want her to stay as another pillar of support for the baby. They're not giving her what she needs, and that's the "shove out the door" that every parent must eventually give their children, like mine did me. And I feel 100% better and more independent that they did. I manage money better, I don't have to ask them constantly for things and I can be independent.

-Bolder


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 16, 2007)

Bob's not my name, it's her father's name. 

Thank you for the response.


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## Tina (Aug 16, 2007)

Just going by your post, Bolder, I think you did the right thing. That household sounds very dysfunctional, and that's why you couldn't stand it. Your ex was used to the dysfunction, because it was her house, but the fact that she seemed used to it also means that she has likely become dysfunctional, too. I think that she also acted very immaturely when you had that discussion with her, so obviously that's not a good sign.

Sorry you're having to start all over again, and with a broken heart. But if you go back, you will be going back to that same dysfunctional dynamic.

There is one thing I would like to comment on, apart from the rest. That is that it is the rare woman that isn't bothered by her lover fantasizing that she is something that in reality she is not, while making love. It would, understandably, cause feelings of not being enough, and would exacerbate her already low self-esteem. I suggest that in future relationships, you either be with someone who excites you enough as is, or keep that fantasy to yourself. Really, would anyone -- male or female -- want to know that they are not good enough as they are, so instead a fantasy has to be used? That applies whether it's body size, looks, penis size, breast size, whatever.

BTW, after reading Bob's email, I say, good riddance!


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## alienlanes (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't have much to add, except to say that, like everyone else, I agree that you did the right thing.



Scrumptious_voluptuous said:


> I'm sorry, but it sounds like they want you to give her what they're giving her...and you just can't. Don't let him guilt trip you. This girl needs a life of her own and the parents aren't helping.





ScreamingChicken said:


> Bolder, when I read this part , I couldn't help but think that you really dodged a bullett. It gave me the impression that your ex-future in laws are control freaks. I also picked up on hints of materialism and elitism in the rest of the e-mail. Consider yourself lucky it's over now.



Quoted for truth. I imagine his emotions must be running high, so I don't want to judge him too harshly, but on the basis of his letter, Bob sounds like a fairly unpleasant guy. There's a very nasty hint of elitism in his pointing out that your parents didn't pay your way the way he has his daughter's -- I would have imagined that a guy with the drive and discipline to put himself through college on his own nickel would be _more_ likely to be a solid provider than a guy who's used to depending on his parents' money.



Tina said:


> There is one thing I would like to comment on, apart from the rest. That is that it is the rare woman that isn't bothered by her lover fantasizing that she is something that in reality she is not, while making love. It would, understandably, cause feelings of not being enough, and would exacerbate her already low self-esteem. *I suggest that in future relationships, you either be with someone who excites you enough as is, or keep that fantasy to yourself.* Really, would anyone -- male or female -- want to know that they are not good enough as they are, so instead a fantasy has to be used? That applies whether it's body size, looks, penis size, breast size, whatever.



I have to disagree with this, Tina. IMO, honest, respectful sharing of each other's sexual fantasies is an _essential_ part of a healthy long-term relationship. This sharing has to happen in an atmosphere of mutual trust and communication, of course, but if that sort of atmosphere isn't present in a couple's sex life, that strikes me as a warning sign that it isn't there in the rest of their relationship either.


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## exile in thighville (Aug 16, 2007)

You undoubtedly did the right thing. I'm a reductive guy, and the tune of my ignorance-risking summation goes like this:

1. she made major decisions with her life without asking you, a supposed equal partner

2. she didn't care for your sexual needs and made you feel shitty for having any

3. look at your list of sacrifices and think up a possible one of hers. whose is insanely longer?

4. she might be a good person for staying home to clean up her sister's mess but she's a terrible paramour (judging by the only side of the story i have)

5. adoption is always an option.

your reason for leaving is circumstantial enough that if you still love her in the far future and want to give it a shot again under different circumstances, she'd be truly ignorant to deny you that. but it sounds to me like her priority towards children and raising one got the best of her in a sticky situation here. she didn't have to inherit her sister's problem.

do your best to man up and let it go. you're gonna be strong as hell.


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## Tina (Aug 16, 2007)

SlackerFA said:


> I have to disagree with this, Tina. IMO, honest, respectful sharing of each other's sexual fantasies is an _essential_ part of a healthy long-term relationship. This sharing has to happen in an atmosphere of mutual trust and communication, of course, but if that sort of atmosphere isn't present in a couple's sex life, that strikes me as a warning sign that it isn't there in the rest of their relationship either.



Sure, and I'm all for it, if it's a fantasy that is shared, or something that one is willing to do for the other. But it read to me like it was his fantasy and it made her feel bad. He mentioned her already low self-esteem and body satisfaction. Why would any woman who felt like that about her body welcome a fantasy that makes her even fatter (therefore, something she is not), when she didn't even want to be the size she was? The key word is "shared," and from the way it sounds, it wasn't shared.


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## exile in thighville (Aug 16, 2007)

Tina said:


> Sure, and I'm all for it, if it's a fantasy that is shared, or something that one is willing to do for the other. But it read to me like it was his fantasy and it made her feel bad. He mentioned her already low self-esteem and body satisfaction. Why would any woman who felt like that about her body welcome a fantasy that makes her even fatter (therefore, something she is not), when she didn't even want to be the size she was? The key word is "shared," and from the way it sounds, it wasn't shared.



I agree with you Tina, but I'd like to make an allowance that honesty and sharing fantasies openly is healthier for relationships than not. I'm not saying anyone's in the wrong, but it remains unfulfillment if one party wants something and the other isn't willing.


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## Friday (Aug 16, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> Cranky, kr7, thank you for your replies.
> 
> kr7, I think that it wasn't so much that we had vastly different priorities so much as that she was basing all of her decisions on *the assumption that I would simply accede *to all of the extra burdens of fatherhood and living with her parents that I would simply tough out. It was extremely complicated, especially since I had grown so interconnected with her parents and family as well.
> 
> -Bolder



Sorry, but it sounds to me like she always expected to have it her way. You moved to hell for her and she wouldn't move down the block.


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## Tina (Aug 16, 2007)

Right on, Dan. But in general terms, if it's a fantasy that feels damaging to one of the people in the relationship, then something must change. It might be the the couple cannot maintain a relationship.


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## waldo (Aug 16, 2007)

Bolder, I agree that you are too young to become a parent (even a part-time one). It is much preferable to become more established professionally and to become older and more mature before being a parent. The thing I have the biggest problem with regarding your fiancee's parents is their demand that you join their religion in order to marry their daughter. This is not a reasonable requirement in today's day and age, and it is totally inappropriate for anyone to convert to a religion just to satisfy their partner and or in laws. Good luck, I think you will do fine.


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## Observer (Aug 17, 2007)

There is probably no way to repair this broken eggshell now -but there are lessons to be learned.

*1) Love is more than attraction and sex.* It is also mutual communication and decision making. In this case it is apparent that the major lifestyle calls were being made by over-indulgent parents who were enabling their daughter and you to do what the two of you wanted but under their control. Not wise parenting, not wise partnering, and the resulting conflict was inevitable.

*2) Religious conversion must be real, not accommodated*. I'm not of the Jewish faith but I know something about it. Its hard for me to fathom a true practitioner of Judaism (Orthodox, Liberal, or Conservative) countenancing what you have described. But her father writes like a true Jewish patriarch - "you knew the conditions, education and conversion before marriage and you never took a step to convert." I suspect, since you say for whatever reason that you are an atheist, you really didn't want to

*3) Stuffing feelings never works* You were being caught up in a totally dysfunctional and codependent household, even if you didn't know what those terms meant. But because you were dependent on the enablers for what you wanted, you apparently never discussed deeply with your fiancé (or her Father) where you thought it was going. Instead you laid your exit plans, made your decisions and presented both her and her father with a fiat accompli. In so doing you burned your bridges. The Jewish scriptures say that "in a multitude of counsel there is wisdom." Had you sought that before acting I think the counsel for you to give your fiancé a warning shot across the bow might have led to a different result. 

*4) Flexibility matters * If one's spouse (or fiancé) wants their SO's to be involved in something its best to draw boundaries of accommodation as much as possible, not react emotionally. Had you understood the Jewish (and for that matter other ethnic groups as well) concept of family you might have better understood what was being asked of you - and enjoyed it. Instead you simply felt imposed upon. Did you, she, or anyone ever suggest you look into the Big Brothers program and see how it works? Its a great training ground for being a parent yourself and has a strong Jewish influence.

These are in one sense hard words for someone already in pain. But you have by your reaction to your earlier pain caused a multiplier pain effect on the family that tried to include you - in however an unwise manner. I think it would do you good to apologize to them for the manner in which you addressed your issues, but realistically it seems over. Hopefully you will heal and, if you are to be involved with someone with religious values, define your own beforehand.


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## Brenda (Aug 17, 2007)

As much as you love her I don't think the relationship would have been a long term success. You both do not seem prepared for the realities of married life.

The fact her father throws in your face that your parents don't pay your way but he is such a great guy for footing the bill for her is really messed up. Also his putting requirements on you to change religion and when you could get married tells me he is in control of her life and would be controlling yours in no time.

He is right that you should have discussed this with her in far greater detail before leaving town. You already had some of your stuff in the trunk of your car so clearly you had one foot out the front door when he told you to go ahead and leave.

You are not in a position to support her and she is unwilling to support her self at this time so moving was not a great idea. She should have made it clear she was unwilling to do that before you moved of course. You should have known it was not a great idea to live beyond your means.

Go back to school in January and give yourself time to get your life in order before even contemplating marriage.

Good luck and give yourself some time to heal.

Brenda


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 17, 2007)

First, thanks for the outpouring of support, everyone. It is really helping me come to terms with my decision and realize that I had to do what I did for me, in the end, as selfish as that sounds. I cannot see myself being happy when I'm forced into things that I don't want right now (fatherhood, living at home, conversion).



> There is one thing I would like to comment on, apart from the rest. That is that it is the rare woman that isn't bothered by her lover fantasizing that she is something that in reality she is not, while making love. It would, understandably, cause feelings of not being enough, and would exacerbate her already low self-esteem. I suggest that in future relationships, you either be with someone who excites you enough as is, or keep that fantasy to yourself. Really, would anyone -- male or female -- want to know that they are not good enough as they are, so instead a fantasy has to be used? That applies whether it's body size, looks, penis size, breast size, whatever.



Secondly, while we were together, it was very clear to her that I was a FA (with a little bit of feeder/encourager tendencies, I will admit) and I made it clear to her that I loved her body and had some fantasies about her sometimes. Until recently, when we would roleplay/talk about her gaining weight while having sex/getting fatter, etc., she had never once told me that it bothered her. She went along with it every time and even seemed to be turned on by it on some points. This was the very first time she had told me that it was a turn off and a complete shock to me, given that we had interacted in such a way for more than 2 years - not every time, but every now and then - and really made me wonder what else she might not be telling me. 

Occasionally, I asked her to tell me something, anything about her sexual fantasies, whatever they might be, and would be more than willing to try to accomodate them, and she responded simply that she had none. :huh:

Maybe I just had an overactive sexual imagination, in the physical respect...


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## CrankySpice (Aug 17, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> Occasionally, I asked her to tell me something, anything about her sexual fantasies, whatever they might be, and would be more than willing to try to accomodate them, and she responded simply that she had none. :huh:
> 
> Maybe I just had an overactive sexual imagination, in the physical respect...



I know its very hard for men to believe sometimes that women--particuarly young women--don't have sexual fantasies, but it isn't unlikely. When I was younger, my "fantasies" were really vague, more like flashes of desire, and usually only during masturbation...if someone has asked me what they were, I probably wouldn't have even recognized them as being fantasies. As I got older and more sexual confident, they started taking a more solid form, but then some of them were so bizarre I couldn't image telling anyone about them (particularly the religion-oriented ones, went through a big phase with that....lets just say the last supper involved far more than wine and bread ).


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## Scrumptious_voluptuous (Aug 17, 2007)

I think you were absolutely right to tell her your fantasies! How else are you both supposed to have a happy sex life unless you do?? I couldn;t be in a relationship feeling that I had to keep them to myself.

Just because she couldnt pick up the guts, or tune into her own fantasies like you could, doesn't make you a bad person, or her a prude. At the end of the day, you fantasies should have boosted her confidence if she was so unsure about her weight, rather than hurt her.


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## waldo (Aug 17, 2007)

Brenda said:


> As much as you love her I don't think the relationship would have been a long term success. You both do not seem prepared for the realities of married life.
> 
> The fact her father throws in your face that your parents don't pay your way but he is such a great guy for footing the bill for her is really messed up. Also his putting requirements on you to change religion and when you could get married tells me he is in control of her life and would be controlling yours in no time.
> 
> ...



I have a real problem with people who are into their 20s and still living at home with their parents. Often this is due to their wanting to continue living at a standard that they would be unable to maintain on their own (not wanting to go from their parent's nice house to a crappy apartment which is the only thing they can afford). Also, as he mentions, the girl was not saving any money, even though she worked during the summers and lived at home expense-free. Then there is that whole issue of the $1200 !! speeding fine (which she attempted to hide from him, by the way).

Financial issues aside, there is a real issue of immaturity here when someone is resistent to moving out on their own, which causes me to question that person's character. So I think it is wrong to view her decision to continue living at home with the parents as prudent. From what has been written here, the girl sounds like a spoiled, unmotivated brat and I say good riddance.


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## Tad (Aug 17, 2007)

How are your family and friends reacting to all of this? I hope you have support on the home front!

-ed


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 17, 2007)

waldo said:


> Financial issues aside, there is a real issue of immaturity here when someone is resistent to moving out on their own, which causes me to question that person's character. So I think it is wrong to view her decision to continue living at home with the parents as prudent. From what has been written here, the girl sounds like a spoiled, unmotivated brat and I say good riddance.



I think that this is unfair. 

The typical WASP-ish definition of family values includes the belief that children should obtain financial & emotional independence as soon as possible. It is how I was raised, and I appreciate and understand that custom. But it is *not* how all people define family values, especially those of different religions and/or cultures. In my husband's culture (and certainly, within his family) unmarried children live with their parents. It would be unheard of for a child in his/her early 20's to move out & live independently. And I know that my husband's parents derived a lot of satisfaction from the fact that they were able to provide financially for their children ... not just until they were 18, or some other magical number, and shown the door. I know that this is NOT what happens in most American families, but it is how we are viewed by people in Asian cultures. They feel that Western children are in too much of a rush to grow up. To me, there is some truth in that. I don't necessarily agree with this particular father's desire to provide for his daughter's every need, but I do understand it, in that he simply has a different value system than [the collective] we do. 

I agree with everything that Observer said with regard to the problem being in the underlying expectations & the lack of communication about those expectations ... not to mention the competing value systems. I don't think anyone was right or wrong, and it would be unfair to judge either party without knowing the whole story. From what I've seen, both have some admirable qualities.


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## chickadee (Aug 17, 2007)

I think that you did the right thing.

You shouldn't have to always give, and the other person gives nothing. A relationship is supposed to be a give and take, where you look back over a period of time and see that things are roughly even. 

Also- you need to take care of yourself- you need to do the things that you need to do to succeed in your life. It is unfortunate that your fiancee's sister is an unfit parent, but that responsibility shouldn't fall back on you to raise her child. 

Waldo: About living at home with your parents: In some cultures, this is very common. If you spend some time abroad, you will see this. When people from these cultures immigrated to the US, some of them brought their cultural norms with them. So when you make a blanket statement that everyone who lives at home is immature and spoiled, you're condemning a lot of different cultures in one fell swoop. Yes, there are some situations where some people are abusing living at home. But there are a heck of a lot of situations too where people live at home because it is the culturally expected thing to do.


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## Scrumptious_voluptuous (Aug 17, 2007)

chickadee said:


> Yes, there are some situations where some people are abusing living at home. But there are a heck of a lot of situations too where people live at home because it is the culturally expected thing to do.



But surely in Western Cultures it is the norm to be willing and able to move out at 18? (generally because that's the age you would leave home to go to Uni). If I meet someone 25+ who's still living at home, it's very rare. ...and I would automatically think they can't support themselves or are unwilling to make that leap to independance.
It took me long enough to get over not living at home anymore, and I've seen what people are like when they move out and aren't used to balencing money, paying bills, washing, cleaning etc...it's a tough time. The sooner they get used to it, the better.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 17, 2007)

Scrumptious_voluptuous said:


> But surely in Western Cultures it is the norm to be willing and able to move out at 18? (generally because that's the age you would leave home to go to Uni). If I meet someone 25+ who's still living at home, it's very rare. ...and I would automatically think they can't support themselves or are unwilling to make that leap to independance.
> It took me long enough to get over not living at home anymore, and I've seen what people are like when they move out and aren't used to balencing money, paying bills, washing, cleaning etc...it's a tough time. The sooner they get used to it, the better.



I think that's a very insulting assumption to make. Why would you assume that your value system is inherently better than someone else's? Or, for that matter, that a young adult is just not willing to be "independent", in the very narrow way that you appear to be defining that word?


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## Scrumptious_voluptuous (Aug 17, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> I think that's a very insulting assumption to make. Why would you assume that your value system is inherently better than someone else's? Or, for that matter, that a young adult is just not willing to be "independent", in the very narrow way that you appear to be defining that word?




I'm not saying anything about anyone's value system. I think you misunderstand. Im only talking about the willingness to move out at a respectable age. Thats one part of a 'value system', not the whole kit n' caboodle.

If a 22 year old man came on to me, and then said he lived with his parents so he could save on rent, I wouldn't find that in the least bit attractive. Maybe if the parents needed care, thats different, but when its just because you don't want to earn and save the money -as is the case of the OP's ex - then it seems a little lazy to me. Yes, Im sure that will insult some people, but I moved out at 17 so it's just my opinion as someone who moved out at that age and struggled with the consequences without help from parents. Fine, it wont fit into everyone's ideal, but we're all different.

And in relation to the OP's situation, I don't think there's much point deviating onto Asian cultures when we're talking Western - where moving out at 18 is the norm. 

As for assumption - I've lived with people who have moved straight from home (several times) and seen the financial and physical mess they get themselves in. So it's not _assumption,_ it's real true experience. And not one I wish to relive.

I don't see why me using the word 'independant' is a narrow definition? To me, showing indepence includes being able and willing to live and fend for yourself. No, thats not all the word encompasses, but it applies in this instance.

Overall, I believe the hand you hold is the hand that holds you down. Whilst it's lovely to have a good support network behind you, that network isnt always going to be there, so the kind thing to do is let people learn how to live without it.


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## Aliena (Aug 17, 2007)

Why did you drop out of law school? If this was something you wanted, why give it up? You have to go on living your life, no? 

I don't understand why you would close this door of opportunity (even if just for now) when being "out on your own" is so very important to you. 

I do not know this young lady, but I believe in her case she made the right decision. 
And from what I've learned from you--you did too, except for giving up law school; I don't understand that. 

Just sayin'.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 17, 2007)

Scrumptious_voluptuous, I certainly understood that you weren't calling an entire value system into question, and that it was only a part of one. I didn't misunderstand you. I just don't agree with your assessment of what constitutes independence -- at least, not all the time. One of my biggest pet peeves is when people, myself too often included, make assumptions about what motivates other people. Or, for that matter, assume that what they hold to be true or valuable is or should be the same for everyone else.

Asian values are certainly pertinent to this discussion, in that it highlights that not all cultures -- including, I might add, a distinct sub-culture in the U.S. -- believe as we have been taught to believe. I have to admit that I'm not that familiar with Jewish customs, but from what I read in the father's letter, it seems that his value system is just different than yours ... or mine, for that matter, and more similar in nature to the Asian views on family. 

Like you, I moved out at 17 to attend college, and was financially independent by 19. I also amassed an enormous amount of credit card debt, and student loan debt that I am *still* paying for. I made terribly irresponsible choices financially. My credit was destroyed -- to the point where I couldn't even get a checking account in my own name until I was in my mid-20's. But, hey. I paid my own way through college, and I didn't live with my parents, so that makes me somehow superior, eh? Especially since my husband lived at home until he was 23, and his parents then paid all of his tuition, room & board, and living expenses. Oh, and his credit is and always has been excellent. But still ... what a freeloader


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## Scrumptious_voluptuous (Aug 17, 2007)

I think we're in severe danger of going OT. So for the sakes of everyone else's sanity, I'm not going to go further into it. You have your opinion, I have mine. I didn't realise we should all agree with only one...:doh: 

I just think we should keep the OP's personal situation in mind from what we have read. i.e - A western family, a girl whos getting her clothes bought for her at 22, and his decision to have no truck with it. Which I definitely, wholeheartedly agree with.
Unless they've all turned Asian overnight and nobody's told me..:blink: 

I hate it when that happens!


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## pinuptami (Aug 17, 2007)

Scrumptious_voluptuous said:


> a girl whos getting her clothes bought for her at 22



A Jewish girl. I know the OP and the girll in question, so I am not coming out of left field here. 

While I don't live at home with my mother, by my own choice, she would be happy to had I chosen to live at home.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 17, 2007)

Scrumptious_voluptuous said:


> Unless they've all turned Asian overnight and nobody's told me..:blink:
> 
> I hate it when that happens!



OK, *this* I had to laugh at.  

And, you're right. The thread is veering dangerously off course. For that, I apologize. This is a very personal issue that shouldn't be derailed by pettiness.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 17, 2007)

> Why did you drop out of law school? If this was something you wanted, why give it up? You have to go on living your life, no?
> 
> I don't understand why you would close this door of opportunity (even if just for now) when being "out on your own" is so very important to you.
> 
> ...



To clarify, I hadn't actually started my legal education in law school. I had signed up for loans (which I promptly cancelled upon the realization of my decision) and made a tuition deposit, but that was it. And given my LSAT score, which while not a stellar 170-180 range, is still good enough to get into a Colorado-area law program, I don't feel a rush to go straight into graduate education after 14 years of schooling. I would like to eventually return, but I would like to start working full time at a position so I can support myself.

In the beginning of summer, if she had told me that this is what the situation would metamorphose into (living at home with parents for 2 years, taking care of her sister's 3 year old) from being independent and on our own, I would have more than likely not gone or told her to get everything together before I picked up and moved. She had NOT shared with me that she was still paying back her ticket or was still continuously in overdraft-induced debt.

For me, financial responsibility is a big thing, given as how Bob put it "unlike your parents, I might add", I'm receiving basically no help outside of car insurance (due to my good driving record that I've maintained since 16).

-Bolder


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## This1Yankee (Aug 17, 2007)

pinuptami said:


> While I don't live at home with my mother, by my own choice, she would be happy to had I chosen to live at home.


 

On a similar note, my mother STILL buys me clothes (even though she lives 4 hours away). I think she takes pride in finally nailing down my "style" after years and years of rejection upon my prompt return of every stitch of clothing that she purchased. Now she's got the hang of it, and she loves to buy me clothes.


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## Miss Vickie (Aug 17, 2007)

Bolder, for what it's worth, you did the right thing. I'm not ready to cast anyone as the villain (though your ex's dad comes close with his uncalled for comments about your parents) but clearly you both have different ideas about the future, and were unable to communicate those ideas effectively. Maybe you both need some time to sort things out, figure out what you want, mature a little bit, and you can hook up later, when you're both in a better place. Right now she clearly desires to live with her family and care for this baby, which is great; but that doesn't mean you have to go along for the ride.

Did I miss something, or what religion are they expecting you to convert to? Apparently it's one that allows "shacking up" and premarital sex, which is why I found the dad's comments about you converting a little amusing. Oh and as for him saying you didn't give her enough time to discuss this, isn't he the one who told you to piss off? 

The only thing I think you could have/should have done differently is talked to her first -- before her dad. Your relationship is with her, not him, and you basically encourage interference in your relationship by involving her father. My own feeling is that any further discussion about your relationship with her should be with her, and her father left entirely out of it. If she's an adult, then she needs to act like one, and involving "daddy" in her affairs is yet another way for her to remain dependent, which is pretty clearly what she's doing.

Good luck in finding the right woman for you, and best of luck in law school! I hope you're able to get in ASAP so your future isn't derailed any more than it is.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 17, 2007)

> Did I miss something, or what religion are they expecting you to convert to? Apparently it's one that allows "shacking up" and premarital sex, which is why I found the dad's comments about you converting a little amusing. Oh and as for him saying you didn't give her enough time to discuss this, isn't he the one who told you to piss off?
> 
> The only thing I think you could have/should have done differently is talked to her first -- before her dad. Your relationship is with her, not him, and you basically encourage interference in your relationship by involving her father. My own feeling is that any further discussion about your relationship with her should be with her, and her father left entirely out of it. If she's an adult, then she needs to act like one, and involving "daddy" in her affairs is yet another way for her to remain dependent, which is pretty clearly what she's doing.



They were expecting me to convert to Judaism. And yes, we were living together in that house a number of different occasions and yes, we did have premarital sex. One thing I realized that I don't really understand, now that I think about it - Judaism is passed matrilinearly. Since she was already Jewish, any children we would have had would be Jewish also. So why was it so important? I understand the desire to have a Jewish-Jewish family, but I always felt that conversion for me wouldn't carry as much conviction for me as I think her family was expecting. I also made it clear to her that my conversion would be for her and not for any real belief in the religious aspect.

The reason I spoke with her father is that he employed me and I was currently working for him when I told him of the situation. Also, after we finished lunch and the conversation we had, he told me that it was important that I tell her that day and not wait. 

And yes, I believe that was a completely unfair and unnecessary remark directed towards my family. What am I supposed to say? I'm sorry that my family doesn't pay everything for their children like you want to do? Urgh. The more I think about that, the more it makes me angry.

Sigh...the more I think about it, the less likely it seems I'd ever really be able to reconnect with her if it involved being around her family. I knew that extricating myself from the situation wouldn't be pretty given how deeply involved I had gotten myself with her relations. But...I just dunno anymore.

Right now I'm still struggling with the love that I have for her and want to talk to her to explain everything, but I feel like it's still too soon (this all happened on Tuesday) for me to contact her.

-Bolder


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## Tina (Aug 17, 2007)

Scrumptious_voluptuous said:


> And in relation to the OP's situation, I don't think there's much point deviating onto Asian cultures when we're talking Western - where moving out at 18 is the norm.


Your opinions are informed by your experiences, as is true with all of us, to one degree or another. But Western culture or not, America is a melting pot, and it's not just one culture here. There are many kids here who are just one generation away from their parents' country of birth, and traditions are still very much alive. Also, there have been many reports of young adults staying with their parents longer simply because it's so expensive to live here, these days, and it's very hard to find jobs that even begin to pay a living wage. So it's not as much the norm as it used to be for young adults to move out at 18. You have your opinions and standards and all, but your experience isn't everyone's. Also, not everyone is as capable as you of making it on their own. It doesn't make them lesser people than you, as we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it's your harsh, judgemental tone that's hitting me the wrong way.


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## waldo (Aug 17, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> I think that this is unfair.
> 
> The typical WASP-ish definition of family values includes the belief that children should obtain financial & emotional independence as soon as possible. It is how I was raised, and I appreciate and understand that custom. But it is *not* how all people define family values, especially those of different religions and/or cultures. In my husband's culture (and certainly, within his family) unmarried children live with their parents. It would be unheard of for a child in his/her early 20's to move out & live independently. And I know that my husband's parents derived a lot of satisfaction from the fact that they were able to provide financially for their children ... not just until they were 18, or some other magical number, and shown the door. I know that this is NOT what happens in most American families, but it is how we are viewed by people in Asian cultures. They feel that Western children are in too much of a rush to grow up. To me, there is some truth in that. I don't necessarily agree with this particular father's desire to provide for his daughter's every need, but I do understand it, in that he simply has a different value system than [the collective] we do.
> 
> I agree with everything that Observer said with regard to the problem being in the underlying expectations & the lack of communication about those expectations ... not to mention the competing value systems. I don't think anyone was right or wrong, and it would be unfair to judge either party without knowing the whole story. From what I've seen, both have some admirable qualities.



Another piece of evidence regarding the character of the young woman in question: she flunked out of college where she and the OP met.


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## waldo (Aug 17, 2007)

A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> They were expecting me to convert to Judaism. And yes, we were living together in that house a number of different occasions and yes, we did have premarital sex. One thing I realized that I don't really understand, now that I think about it - Judaism is passed matrilinearly. Since she was already Jewish, any children we would have had would be Jewish also. So why was it so important? I understand the desire to have a Jewish-Jewish family, but I always felt that conversion for me wouldn't carry as much conviction for me as I think her family was expecting. I also made it clear to her that my conversion would be for her and not for any real belief in the religious aspect.
> 
> The reason I spoke with her father is that he employed me and I was currently working for him when I told him of the situation. Also, after we finished lunch and the conversation we had, he told me that it was important that I tell her that day and not wait.
> 
> ...



Don't look back. Make a clean break and go on with your life. Find a woman who shares your priorities and who is more comfortable with being fat and being admired by you for it.


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## SMA413 (Aug 17, 2007)

I figure now is the time for the apparently lazy, spoiled, free-loading, lead-footed (as Boulder made apparent by mentioning my speeding ticket), stupid (again, as my failing grades were mentioned by Boulder) J.A.P. fiance who lives exceeding her means (again, as Boulder decided to divulge my bank account problems) to chime in. While I have no desire to air all of my personal shit to total strangers (unlike my former paramour), I feel that I am being labeled by people that are getting just one side of the story. While there have not been any major embellishments, it is natural for a listener of a story to side with the narrator. So I must apologize that I come from a family who, while crazy and a bit hard to handle, has strong values and will do ANYTHING for each other. This applies to my parents helping me financially while in school. This applies to my parents and my youngest sister helping to raise an innocent child that should not be penalized for his mother's mistakes and short-comings. This applied to my parents doing whatever they could so that their oldest daughter could be with the man she loved- buying not only her planes tickets but helping pay for his as well, offering him free room and board, free food, jobs, connections in the law community.


That's all I'm going to say. Boulder should be a man and talk to me instead of everyone else.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 18, 2007)

waldo said:


> Another piece of evidence regarding the character of the young woman in question: she flunked out of college where she and the OP met.



Character?!? How about, she simply may not have been a motivated student? How can you call someone's CHARACTER into question because he/she may not like school, or perform well in academics?


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## Keb (Aug 18, 2007)

I think it's ridiculous to assume immaturity -just- based on a person's age and living situation. There are responsible young people who live with their parents, contribute to the household, and do it by mutual agreement that it will benefit the family and the individual in the long run through the financial savings. The "norm" of leaving home at 18 was pretty much a 20th century thing; before that, even in America, children often stayed in their parents' homes until they were married. Now that houses are so big, property costs so much, and people aren't starting their own families till they're in their thirties, the cultural norm is shifting again.

There are freeloaders who stay home to avoid growing up, too. But there are irresponsible people who live away from home and still manage to freeload off of friends/the government/relatives anyhow.

Whether an adult child should reside in his parents' home should really be between the adult child and his parents, don't you think? Nobody else can really say whether the reasons for it are good or not. Every situation is different, and different personalities will learn different lessons from similar situations.

If both parties are comfortable with the situation, and the person living at home is working/getting an education/moving towards eventual independence, nobody else should be making judgements about the situation at all.

Of course, in this case, it does seem like she was becoming too dependent on her family--or they were becoming dependent on her to care for the little one--and so Bolder needed to decide if he could deal with that. Since he can't...Bolder, you made the right decision. It's okay to feel hurt by it, and to care about her, but you were both very young when you met and it seems you had a lot of growing left to do.


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## Midori (Aug 18, 2007)

Tina said:


> Right on, Dan. But in general terms, if it's a fantasy that feels damaging to one of the people in the relationship, then something must change. It might be the the couple cannot maintain a relationship.



Too soon to rep you again but this was brilliant and concise! Thank you!

Bolder, 

Break ups suck. It hurts like hell ... especially after a great deal of investment of the heart. It's never easy ... there is always lots of analysis ... what if's ... regrets ... wondering ... missing. If it didn't hurt it would suck to have been in it so long ... ya know? Unfortunately ... not every love we have is meant to be for a lifetime. Sometimes it's a book that needed to be written that goes into the library of your life. If you are lucky ... one day it's a book that you can really cherish instead of analyze and ponder over ... it just becomes a precious part of the collection of your life.

If I may ... 

_There comes a point where you just love someone. Not because they're good, or bad, or anything really. You just love them. It doesn't mean you'll be together forever. It doesn't mean you won't hurt each other. It just means you love them. Sometimes in spite of who they are, and sometimes because of who they are. And you know that they love you, sometimes because of who you are, and sometimes in spite of it.
-Incubus Dreams_

I wish you the best of luck!

&#9834;midori


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## SMA413 (Aug 18, 2007)

waldo said:


> Another piece of evidence regarding the character of the young woman in question: she flunked out of college where she and the OP met.





TraciJo67 said:


> Character?!? How about, she simply may not have been a motivated student? How can you call someone's CHARACTER into question because he/she may not like school, or perform well in academics?



I'll have everyone know that I'm on the Dean's list in nursing school now.


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## Miss Vickie (Aug 18, 2007)

Good luck, SMA, and congratulations for getting on the dean's list. Nursing school is very hard -- I know from personal experience having graduated a little over three years ago. You should be proud of your accomplishments, and it's admirable that you want to help your sister's child.

Best of luck to you in your future!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Aug 18, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> Character?!? How about, she simply may not have been a motivated student? How can you call someone's CHARACTER into question because he/she may not like school, or perform well in academics?



Yeah, you know, my brother who's a police officer who strives for justice and does volunteer work in his spare time and a good father and is faithful and kind to his wife of 15 years and has a college degree? You may *think* that kind of person is decent, but since he struggled in academics due to dyslexia for years, and took him until he was in his mid-twenties to find a learning style that made it possible for him to understand the materials of a class, he's really an asshole with no character. 

People like you need to know the truth.


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## Teresa (Aug 18, 2007)

It's a tough and painful situation you find yourself in. By coming here and opening up about a very painful time in your life to a lot of strangers I can tell that this is what's constantly on your mind. I (like others who've posted) have faced similar situations. I know for me it was all I could think about and all I wanted to talk about. I wanted to understand it, analyze it, figure it out and then maybe I'd be able to move forward. I have to tell you that it doesn't always work that way. 

You've given 4 years of your life to this relationship. You built up a future in your mind with this woman and you are not only grieving the loss of the relationship with her, you're going to have to grieve the loss of your dream future with her. For me, that was the hardest part. My advice is to fill your life up. Go back to school, be with friends, family, just DO things to try and fill up the time that was spent with your ex whether it was physical time or mental time. 

Maybe you two will talk and work things out and come to a compromise. I hope that's possible for you *if* you can see where a compromise would be something positive for you both. Don't go back into that relationship simply because you're hurting and missing her. Things could end up a lot worse down the road if you try to force something to work that's not going to work in the long run. 

Take care, 
Teresa


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## Famouslastwords (Aug 18, 2007)

I feel sorry for you Boulder. Sounds like the breakup was tough for you. All the details aside, I hope you can pick it all up and move on with your life. You're still so young! 

Sounds like she's bitter. What you both need is space from each other.


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## waldo (Aug 18, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> Character?!? How about, she simply may not have been a motivated student? How can you call someone's CHARACTER into question because he/she may not like school, or perform well in academics?




Being unmotivated is essentially the same as a lack of character, sense of responsibility, etc. By and large anyone who is capable of getting into college is capable of at least getting a passing grade provided they apply themselves. Many who flunk out are putting too much time into partying, fraternizing with the opposite sex, etc, and not enough time studying. Doesn't show much character to be wasting your parents hard-earned money that way now does it?

EMA, I am glad to hear you have started to turn yourself around and are doing well in school now. However, the fact that you are 22 years old, living at your parents house where they pay most of your expenses and you work and still don't save any money (in fact are allegedly in a constant overdraft situation)- indicates that you are still way too immature to have any business getting married any time soon. And now that I think of it, it was really inappropriate for your former fiancee to post about your situation here since you know people in this community and it was therefore impossible for you to remain anonymous.

Good luck with your future endeavors -both of you.


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## Aliena (Aug 18, 2007)

waldo said:


> Being unmotivated is essentially the same as a lack of character, sense of responsibility, etc. By and large anyone who is capable of getting into college is capable of at least getting a passing grade provided they apply themselves. Many who flunk out are putting too much time into partying, fraternizing with the opposite sex, etc, and not enough time studying. Doesn't show much character to be wasting your parents hard-earned money that way now does it?





Who are you to judge a persons character, based solely on their financial situation and academic standing!!??  

There are 1,000's of students getting into college, but a large percentage of them do not graduate for many reasons, the biggest being the financial aspect of it. 
To assume a person is flunking out, because they are partying too much or not applying themselves, is very narrow minded and obtuse. 

I am in my late 30's, have bad credit, and am just starting college again for the umpteenth time. My circumstances in life were not me circumventing the responsibility of graduating or avoiding my debt. There are obstacles in some people's lives you obviously are very fortunate not to experience. This would explain your very flat, indifference to those who struggle keeping their heads above water and not finish in the timely manner you see fit! 

Boo hiss to you sir/madam!


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## Aliena (Aug 18, 2007)

Famouslastwords said:


> Sounds like she's bitter.




I'm curious how it is you've come to the conclusion his ex-girlfriend is bitter. In the 2 posts I've read from her in this thread, I don't see bitterness at all. I do see someone who is upset her dirty laundry is being aired out in a public forum where obviously some folks here know who she is. 

I'd be upset too.


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## mossystate (Aug 18, 2007)

Aliena...gee...not sure WHICH of your posts I should rep...do you have a preference?...


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## Aliena (Aug 18, 2007)

mossystate said:


> Aliena...gee...not sure WHICH of your posts I should rep...do you have a preference?...



And I was afraid my "lack of character" would show! 

Thanks Mossy!


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## mossystate (Aug 18, 2007)

Aliena said:


> And I was afraid my "lack of character" would show!
> 
> Thanks Mossy!



eye didint evan go too cawledge..


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## Midori (Aug 18, 2007)

As a huge aside Waldo and others ... I think there is an enormous difference between CHARACTER and MATURITY. I'd like to think that WITH maturity, character also improves but unfortunately that's not always the case. 

Mistakes of youth ... bad judgement calls ... wasted time in retrospect ... too much of the excesses don't always indicate BAD character but rather bad judgement. Everyone is capable of bad judgement but that doesn't always reflect upon a person's true character. MOST people learn from the mistakes of their youth and hopefully that learning curve enhances their character but I think that it's a bit extreme to call into question a person's ethical or moral integrity on something like flunking out of college because of wasting time. 

Sometimes it takes a person time to find themselves and as someone else pointed out ... sometimes it's NOT wasting time but rather other things coming to the forefront of a person's reality that causes school to take a backseat. If a young person makes a habit of conducting themselves in a morally questionable way ... yes ... I'd say that's a reflection of bad character HOWEVER ... if a person is simply not very mature yet ... that's not a reflection of true inner character. 

I have a much greater hindsight now than I did in my early twenties and there are many mistakes that I made that some armchair quarterback could have -hung- me out to dry on. I don't think that reflects my inner character as much as it reflected my lack of maturity. People mature differently ... personality is a factor as well as family and personal circumstances. Some people are mature enough to get married and see it through at 18 ... some aren't ready until they are in their 30's and beyond. This doesn't mean that they lack a solid ethical compass ... it's simply that they haven't matured to the point of learning how to navigate the intricacies of relationships and commitments. 

For every scenario that is posted on the boards or that can be presented ... there is a backstory that is not seen ... that affects a person's choices and many times their maturity level. My parents spoiled me in many many ways ... I didn't really KNOW how to handle a great many things on my own because I didn't HAVE to learn those things and frankly, wasn't strongly encouraged to learn them. It took me a while to -find- my way when I finally reached a place of independence. I made many stupid mistakes ... both academically and financially. They were hard lessons ... but I don't think that's a reflection of my character as much as a reflection of my maturity.

Then again ... I suppose it's all in the eye of the beholder and no one can really change your mind if you feel that my mistakes are a reflection of some moral defect on my part. 

Just tell me this ... ever told a lie? Ever cheated at anything? Ever exceeded the speed limit? EVER did anything that could be considered dishonest? Ever cheated on a girlfriend? Ever left work a second early even though you KNOW that you are expected to stay? Ever logged on to your personal accounts or to Dims while you are at work and expected to work? Been late paying a bill? The list could go on and on ... 

Go 'head ... cast the first stone somebody ... 

&#9834;midori


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## waldo (Aug 19, 2007)

Aliena said:


> Who are you to judge a persons character, based solely on their financial situation and academic standing!!??
> 
> There are 1,000's of students getting into college, but a large percentage of them do not graduate for many reasons, the biggest being the financial aspect of it.
> To assume a person is flunking out, because they are partying too much or not applying themselves, is very narrow minded and obtuse.
> ...




Sure, the limited information I have been given causes me to question the person's character/maturity. I think the character is something that often improves with maturity, as Midori suggests. However, we are hearing mostly the negative aspects from her ex, so my information is not necessarily complete enough to make that judgement. In retrospect, I suppose the use of the term character is inappropriate. The level of maturity shown however is indisputable from what he has stated.

For the woman in question, there are no mitigating circumstances that we have been made aware of that would have prevented her from focussing on her school work and being at least moderately successful. Afterall, she is now back in college and on the Dean's list so clearly has the ability. This is someone who has had it easy - living at home with the parents who pay all her expenses and she still couldn't save any money while working full time during the summers. We are not talking about some poor single parent living on her own and struggling to make ends meet here. I would lay blame on the parents for a lack of maturity / character which may be a result in this case as it is in many others of being overindulgent and coddling of the child. As the ex-fiancee himself said in this thread, with all the things her parents have given her the one thing they didn't give but she needs the most was a kick out of the nest. As a parent of two young children and someone with the financial means to spoil them to some extent - the thing that scares me the most is that I would fail to instill in them the respect for working hard and being responsible the way my parents did for me.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 19, 2007)

waldo said:


> Being unmotivated is essentially the same as a lack of character, sense of responsibility, etc. By and large anyone who is capable of getting into college is capable of at least getting a passing grade provided they apply themselves. Many who flunk out are putting too much time into partying, fraternizing with the opposite sex, etc, and not enough time studying. Doesn't show much character to be wasting your parents hard-earned money that way now does it?
> 
> EMA, I am glad to hear you have started to turn yourself around and are doing well in school now. However, the fact that you are 22 years old, living at your parents house where they pay most of your expenses and you work and still don't save any money (in fact are allegedly in a constant overdraft situation)- indicates that you are still way too immature to have any business getting married any time soon. And now that I think of it, it was really inappropriate for your former fiancee to post about your situation here since you know people in this community and it was therefore impossible for you to remain anonymous.
> 
> Good luck with your future endeavors -both of you.




I don't even know where to start with this. Clearly, it would be a waste of time to attempt to educate you in basic courtesy, empathy, and compassion for others. So I'll just flunk you, instead.


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## Famouslastwords (Aug 19, 2007)

SMA413 said:


> I figure now is the time for the apparently lazy, spoiled, free-loading, lead-footed (as Boulder made apparent by mentioning my speeding ticket), stupid (again, as my failing grades were mentioned by Boulder) J.A.P. fiance who lives exceeding her means (again, as Boulder decided to divulge my bank account problems) to chime in. While I have no desire to air all of my personal shit to total strangers (unlike my former paramour), I feel that I am being labeled by people that are getting just one side of the story. While there have not been any major embellishments, it is natural for a listener of a story to side with the narrator. So I must apologize that I come from a family who, while crazy and a bit hard to handle, has strong values and will do ANYTHING for each other. This applies to my parents helping me financially while in school. This applies to my parents and my youngest sister helping to raise an innocent child that should not be penalized for his mother's mistakes and short-comings. This applied to my parents doing whatever they could so that their oldest daughter could be with the man she loved- buying not only her planes tickets but helping pay for his as well, offering him free room and board, free food, jobs, connections in the law community.
> 
> 
> That's all I'm going to say. Boulder should be a man and talk to me instead of everyone else.



This doesn't sound the least bit bitter to you? It does to me.


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## mossystate (Aug 19, 2007)

Famous, I suppose if my ex came to a chat forum I also know of/am a 'member' of, and he wanted not only advice and support, but was giving out information he should have kept to himself..I might be a bit...peeved.

We can get the nuts and bolts info about a situation, but, nobody truly knows what goes on behind closed doors. Seems to me that there was just too much happening, too soon..and expectations and fantasies ( sexual and otherwise ) that would be difficult to navigate even for people who have a bit more experience under their belts.

Hope both of the folks in this situation do well, and one day, find a partner better suited.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 19, 2007)

Famouslastwords said:


> This doesn't sound the least bit bitter to you? It does to me.



I hope that you never find out what it may feel like to have your ex dishing out private details of your relationship within a public forum that you both visit. I imagine you might feel a tinge of bitterness too -- mixed in with other, stronger emotions like: hurt, betrayal, anger ... 

I sure know that I would. And snide remarks from armchair therapists would be the least of my concerns.


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## Observer (Aug 19, 2007)

Talk about jumping to conclusions without first hearing a matter - which in this case is really none of my or anyone else's business!

SMA had some problems in college and had to drop out and get a fresh start - which she has. That is fact. That those problems reflected some sort of character defect or immaturity on her part isn't known - nor does it matter. I would suggest as an alternative the possibility that the turmoil over drama at home could have disrupted the ability to study and led to the running up of some monstrous cell phone bills. We don't need to know, but the point is, this thread is about the OP and his issues - not SMA.

As to the issue of parental involvement with supporting children - there are cultural differences all over the map here. In my own heritage parents are still giving things, both materially and advisory, to kids who are receiving social security benefits and have no need of either. And my wife and I are doing it to our kids and grandkids. Both happened as recently as yesterday!So what?

What both the SMA and the OP did wrong and immaturely here, in my view, was get involved in a cross-cultural relationship that was star-crossed from the outset. Both parties, by their own statements, were compromising values in some areas in order to achieve their personal desires in others =- and papa was enabling the whole situation by agreeing to enable things he never should have. Why? I don't have enough facts to tell - the poor man sounds like he's hoping by his giving to bring others happiness - but doesn't share what is at least my view of where to draw the line.

Hopefully from all this SMA has come to understand the corner the OP found himself backed into. He was only paying lip service to embracing Judaism. It doesn't work that way and she of all people should know better and either broken with her heritage or insisted he get serious. If he is a committed atheist at heart there is no way he could be happy with the requirements of the Torah, much less the Talmud. And where, dear Papa, does either countenance what you were doing?

Hopefully also the OP understands his immaturity and mistakes that contributed to the situation. I've no idea why he doesn't have a Judaic=type family support system - but he doesn't. That's a just a fact with no good or bad about it. Maybe his parents are poor, maybe they are filthy rich but think its character building to make it on his own two feet, maybe they attach conditions he's too independent to conform to. We don't know. But if you are committed to an ambitious seven year educational plan you follow your brain, not your hormones. 

I said originally, and others have touched on it, that there was obvious lack of communication and understanding by both parties. I credit SMA for being mature enough to even be willing to talk with him privately after this public laundry airing - most girls her age would be too mad to ever speak to him about it for the way it was handled. But the OP is to be credited for finally realizing how impossible things were and ending it, however clumsily.

I hope for everyone's sakes that both parties have learned the need for communication and true cultural conformity as a key to marital success.


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## waldo (Aug 19, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> I don't even know where to start with this. Clearly, it would be a waste of time to attempt to educate you in basic courtesy, empathy, and compassion for others. So I'll just flunk you, instead.



There is a culture of entitlement and need/demand for instant gratification that has gripped the youth of this country largely due to the excess 'compassion' from bleeding-hearts such as yourself. There is far too little 'tough love' in the raising of our youth today. 

The OP came on here - wrongly in my opinion, but the milk has been long spilled - soliciting input on his analysis of the situation and actions taken. From a removed and objective standpoint, I have offered my opinion that I strongly agree with his position and actions. As Observer pointed out, there are likely too many obstacles for this relationship to be a success, and they are much better to cut their losses now. It is certainly not the case that I have no empathy or compassion, but unlike others here, I prefer to address the more practical aspects of the issue which appear to be his greatest sources of concern anyway. Unfortunately, this does require a very scrutinizing consideration at the information he has supplied regarding the woman's actions. Afterall, the number one thing most couples fight over is finances, so this one has disaster written all over it from the start given his strong feelings on the matter.


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## Miss Vickie (Aug 19, 2007)

waldo said:


> There is a culture of entitlement and need/demand for instant gratification that has gripped the youth of this country largely due to the excess 'compassion' from bleeding-hearts such as yourself. There is far too little 'tough love' in the raising of our youth today.



At the risk of turning this into a Hyde Park debate, I think your comment was extremely unfair and untrue. I agree with you about the sense of entitlement but you shouldn't blame people who compassionately try to help people, who meet them where they ARE rather than where they "should" be and who go out of their way to use the programs in existence to get people help. If, as a nurse, I didn't practice compassionately, then I would be useless to my patients. Some of them are drug users. Some of them are in domestic violence situations. Many have messed up lives and don't know how to get back on track. But even though I get frustrated and inside I'm thinking, "Would you just stop doing this??? Do you KNOW what you're doing to your baby???" they're not helped by my judgment. Rather, their best chance of improving is me and others helping them figure out how they got here and how to change things. Most people don't want to live in squalor, or be dependent as adults, but for whatever reason they lack the confidence to stand on their own two feet and work for a better life. People like Traci, and I, and others in the "helping" professions show people that they are of value and deserve to have a good life which they can if they work for it. That's hardly a bleeding heart sentiment sure to encourage lack of responsibility. But all Traci and I can do is help those who want to be helped. We can't do it for them. So it's not as though we're carrying people through life. They have to make the effort -- but we meet them halfway, which is sometimes as far as people can go.

So yeah, I think you're way off base here. Even as far as plain ol' lazy kids are concerned, I know many who are the children of conservative parents, including my brother in law who I love but who I feel my inlaws unfairly coddled until he was 40. These are people, by the way, who complain bitterly about public assistance and any kind of social programs that help the poor, the sick, or anyone in need. My parents were also very conservative and they allowed my young adult brother to live at home past 18, without contributing one iota to our household. He wasn't in school. He worked full time and blew all of his money on "stuff". I could go on with many examples of conservative people I know who have absolutely zero expectations for their children who then, naturally, get into trouble.

My 20 year old son, OTOH, is paying his own way through an expensive, private school by working hard to get scholarships and having *three* jobs while majoring in economics, hardly a walk in the park. The only help he'll let me provide is an annual plane ticket so he can visit me. He has too much pride and self respect to let anyone help him. His girlfriend, also the product of bleeding heart liberal parents, is also supporting herself through school. She has worked since prior to graduating high school to save for college, has kept her grades up as well as continuing to work full time in the summer and nearly full time all school year. Who'd have thought it?  These two crazy kids are actually putting money away for retirement, if you can believe it. 

As for these two young adults in question, clearly they have different values and needs in their lives right now. It doesn't make one wrong or the other right, but it does mean that since they can't come to an accommodation it's better to part ways. Maybe eventually she will be ready to be more independent from her family and he'll be a better communicator and they can work things out. Or maybe each will find someone better suited to them.

The only thing that really pisses me off is her father. I'm glad he's happy with the help he's able to provide his daughter but the digs he made at Bolder's parents is very uncool. I wouldn't want someone like that as my father in law because his behavior is just very very rude.


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## Famouslastwords (Aug 19, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> I hope that you never find out what it may feel like to have your ex dishing out private details of your relationship within a public forum that you both visit. I imagine you might feel a tinge of bitterness too -- mixed in with other, stronger emotions like: hurt, betrayal, anger ...
> 
> I sure know that I would. And snide remarks from armchair therapists would be the least of my concerns.



She has four posts. Two of them in this thread. It's not like everyone here knows her or something like that. Besides, I'm not judging her for being bitter. I just noted that she was and said the best thing for the both of them was space from each other. That's from my own personal experience with exes.


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## A Bolder Boulder FA (Aug 19, 2007)

While I appreciate everyone's feedback, at this point, I would humbly request that any further public discussion be dropped.

When I made my original post, I was fresh from making my decision and perhaps not thinking the most clearly about the consequences of my actions. I certainly had no intention of it becoming a "public airing of dirty laundry". It was merely a desire to obtain some objective, anonymous viewpoints on an extremely difficult decision that I'd made and am still struggling with. 

I see now though that asking for advice on such a personal matter when both parties are involved, on a public forum, was a mistake. I apologize for that and know now that I was wrong for doing so.

To everyone who's posted in the thread - thank you for your opinions and advice on everything. At this point, I think the best thing for me to do is simply try and talk with my former fiancee about what has happened, if she will speak to me following this mess I've made, though I would also understand if she wouldn't.

-Bolder


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## Aliena (Aug 20, 2007)

You know, I know first hand about opening the can of worms that should have been left untouched. You came for advice, but in my humblest of humble of opinions, you (I have too in some circumstances) did go too far. 
In my accessment, this is why it became the debate it did. Still, some folks opinions of what people are for their own private situations, I wish I could say surprises me, but none the less amazes me. It's a total WoW moment for me, as I'm always holding out hope for the greater of mankind. 


I wish you and your ex a happy life with the choices you've both made. And that's all anyone of us can hope for. 

Good luck!



P.S. Waldo, I would much rather deal with Traci's "bleeding liberal heart" any day rather than your short, judgemental, obstuse views of people of whom you know nothing about. 
All I can say is you must have a low opinion of yourself. 


I wil now leave this subject as the OP has asked. 






A Bolder Boulder FA said:


> While I appreciate everyone's feedback, at this point, I would humbly request that any further public discussion be dropped.
> 
> When I made my original post, I was fresh from making my decision and perhaps not thinking the most clearly about the consequences of my actions. I certainly had no intention of it becoming a "public airing of dirty laundry". It was merely a desire to obtain some objective, anonymous viewpoints on an extremely difficult decision that I'd made and am still struggling with.
> 
> ...


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## Miss Vickie (Aug 20, 2007)

Good luck, you two. Bolder, I think it's great that you're recognizing your part in this, and how inappropriate it may have been to post private details about your girlfriend here. It may not make a difference in your relationship with her but it's a lesson you can carry into the long and successful life you will no doubt have.

Best of luck to you BOTH.


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## waldo (Aug 20, 2007)

Aliena said:


> P.S. Waldo, I would much rather deal with Traci's "bleeding liberal heart" any day rather than your short, judgemental, obstuse views of people of whom you know nothing about.
> All I can say is you must have a low opinion of yourself.




My judgments are based on detailed information given by the original poster. As I have earlier stated this is based on an incomplete picture, but the evidence given doesn't look good. Overall, it is inaccurate to say I know *nothing* about the person.

For a little perspective, people such as yourself often presume to think they know quite a bit about another poster on an internet discussion board. Based on a sliver of information you have gleaned from my posts here, you presume to have the right to make all kinds of judgements and throw out all type of insults my way because you don't agree with my opinion and I have touched a nerve with you because of your previous multiple aborted attempts at college and your 'bad credit'. So how are you behaving any better than me in the end?

Please attempt to conduct yourself with a little more respect for others including those you don't agree with and avoid these emotional outbursts - that is the mark of a mature individual.


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## Tina (Aug 20, 2007)

You might follow your own advice, Waldo, as you cast an insult in this thread first. [/Mod]


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## waldo (Aug 20, 2007)

Tina said:


> You might follow your own advice, Waldo, as you cast an insult in this thread first. [/Mod]



I consider this:
'Clearly, it would be a waste of time to attempt to educate you in basic courtesy, empathy, and compassion for others. So I'll just flunk you, instead.' to be the first insult. There is no need for such belittling language just because someone posts something that one doesn't agree with or approve of.

Anyway, this thread has run its useful course so do your thing and put it out of its misery.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 20, 2007)

waldo said:


> I consider this:
> 'Clearly, it would be a waste of time to attempt to educate you in basic courtesy, empathy, and compassion for others. So I'll just flunk you, instead.' to be the first insult. There is no need for such belittling language just because someone posts something that one doesn't agree with or approve of.
> 
> Anyway, this thread has run its useful course so do your thing and put it out of its misery.



I chose my wording very carefully, as I felt that *your* response to the OP and his gf was incredibly insulting and demeaning. Not to mention, judgmental and ill-informed.

Interesting that you see it so clearly in my response to you, but not in what you had to say to others.


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## Tina (Aug 20, 2007)

No, I'm not going to "put it out of its misery." All it takes to make this thread scroll down is honoring the OP's wish and quit finding it necessary to get the last word in.


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## Russell Williams (Aug 22, 2007)

waldo said:


> Being unmotivated is essentially the same as a lack of character, sense of responsibility, etc. By and large anyone who is capable of getting into college is capable of at least getting a passing grade provided they apply themselves. Many who flunk out are putting too much time into partying, fraternizing with the opposite sex, etc, and not enough time studying. Doesn't show much character to be wasting your parents hard-earned money that way now does it?
> 
> EMA, I am glad to hear you have started to turn yourself around and are doing well in school now. However, the fact that you are 22 years old, living at your parents house where they pay most of your expenses and you work and still don't save any money (in fact are allegedly in a constant overdraft situation)- indicates that you are still way too immature to have any business getting married any time soon. And now that I think of it, it was really inappropriate for your former fiancee to post about your situation here since you know people in this community and it was therefore impossible for you to remain anonymous.
> 
> Good luck with your future endeavors -both of you.



I read this and I think to myself, "In what way are the above comments useful, or helpful?"

Waldo, when you go to parties or family gatherings do you make such comments to those around you? If so, do you get invited back?

Yours truly

Russell Williams


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