# I may be driven to sue, it seems.



## Tooz (Jan 12, 2007)

Okay, so I'm probably going to have to sue my university (SUNY Buffalo).

Why?

Because, it seems, they are refusing to accomodate me. Last semester (well, the problems really started before that, but they were mild compared to the more recent ones), I had a class in a room with those desk/chair combo things schools are so fond of using. Now, I can sit in one of those things for 45 or 50 minutes, but after that it becomes uncomfortable beyond belief. In fact, towards the end of a standard class period (50 minutes), I'm so uncomfortable that I can't really concentrate in class. Tuesday/Thursday and Monday/Wednesday classes are 90 minutes long. Last semester, I had a linguistics class on Tuesdays and Thursdays in a classroom filled with those desk units. On the first day of class, I had to leave early because I was simply too uncomfortable to bear it any longer. My mother works at the uni, so I called her and explained my problem. She told me to go see the
disabilities (I resent the connotation, but that's the only place that even remotely fits the bill) people while she called her contacts in facilities. So, I went to disabilities, where they told me that basically I wasn't their problem. They recommended the student advocates, so I went over there. While they were nice, they ultimately failed to get anything done. So, my mother got the facilities guys to get a table in there, somehow. The facilities guy put it IN THE FRONT ROW, FACING THE WALL AWAY FROM THE PROFESSOR. I was so upset at this, that I ended up having to call my mother again. She got a guy from facilities to meet with me in the hall. He basically blew me off, saying tables take too much room and whatever, but that he'd move the table tonight. This worked for a week. Then, one day, I walk in...and there's this tiny chair with arm rests. What am I gonna do with that? By now, it's the 6th week of classes (out of 15, might I add), and I've attended all of three classes (and failed the first test). Well, this went on for a while, the tango with facilities, and then my mother and I ended up in the presidential office suite with some people from student equity. They agreed to give us a full refund and erase all evidence of the class from my record. They also gave me a supposed "contact" for future problems.

Through all this stress, I ended up having to drop another class I fell behind in. After that, I was down to eight credit hours. Two classes. I was humiliated.

Fast forward to today, three days before the start of the new semester. My mother and I went to all my scheduled classrooms to inspect seating. Three were problematic. We e-mailed the contact, explaining the situation, and requested that either the rear row of desks be replaced with tables and chairs or that the room be changed to a room that has tables and chairs. Rooms are changed all the time. She waited until now to grace us with a response:

_"It is my understanding that the university facilities will try to be
helpful in these situations when they have the equipment, but they are
not obligated to do so. The way to ensure appropriate accommodations
would be to go through the Disability Services office. As I recall,
your daughter is resistant to that. I can certainly understand her
feelings. Another option is to contact Health Services if she feels
that she requires an accommodation for health reasons.

I am happy to call facilities customer service to see if we can provide
a table and chair but I am pretty sure that the options you suggest
would not be feasible."_

Basically, I'm being blown off by the contact I worked for almost half a semester to line up. It's basically come down to the fact that I may sue if she refuses to do what she agreed to. I feel like the university is denying me my education based on something that is no fault of mine. I will never graduate if this keeps happening. I decided to bring this up here because it just seemed appropriate. I'm so sick and angry over this, and suddenly the start of the semester has become so much scarier.


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## EllorionsDarlingAngel (Jan 12, 2007)

Very Sorry to here this hun.. I hope you can get it settled with out having to sue them to get something down about it...
I would go back to the presidential office and complain again...Maybe even thourhg in the word sue see how fast things get done.. you Know???
Good Luck!


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## Ivy (Jan 12, 2007)

ily and good luck.
call TWO ON YOUR SIDE.
toozie needs to kick some ass.


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## elle camino (Jan 12, 2007)

oh, sweetie. that's awful. 
unfortunately i can't offer any practical or legal advice, but i can tell you that every time i cram my gut into one of those draconian chair/desk devices, i (and i'm betting every other fat college kid) am totally with you in spirit. 
<3<3
chin up. you are totally in the right, here.


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## BigCutieCindy (Jan 12, 2007)

I had to deal with the same situation, luckily my college was very helpful. 

I was well over 400lbs when I returned to my local community college for a one year certificate program, after receiving my Associates degree ten years earlier. 

A couple of days before classes started I went to the disability services. They were incredibly helpful. They made sure a folding chair was available in every one of my class rooms. I always arrived to class a bit early, grabbed the chair and dragged a desk over so I had an appropriate writing surface. Disability services (on their own) re-assigned me a mailbox cubby that was on the end of the set, so I didn't have to deal with squeezing in between them. They also helped me at graduation. Measuring me in private and allowing me to try on my gown in private too. 

I'm sorry your having such trouble. Everyone is deserving of an environment conducive to learning. 

I hope something works out for you.


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## HotBBWnKC (Jan 12, 2007)

I hate to hear you are having such a horrible issue while working on reaching your educational goal. I have had several classes that also have the Jr. High School style chair/desk combo since going to grad school. I usually go to those classes early and steal a chair from a room that is in the vacinity, if one is not already in my assigned room. If I can not find one I just steal the teachers chair. I feel that if I am paying for the class then she/he can stand up and teach. As for laws, before I even considered taking chairs from other rooms etc. I did some research. Here is a link for you that should help you a lot, drop this in their laps and see what happens...

http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/know.html


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## SamanthaNY (Jan 12, 2007)

As far as I understand, obesity is not covered under the Americans With Disabilities act, so trying to sue on that basis (size discrimination) will be difficult, if not impossible. Under the ADA rules, the school cannot be compelled to accomodate you, and in NY (I believe) they are not bound by law to accomodate all sizes. 

Short of bringing a folding chair with you to each class (which may be the best solution, if somewhat cumbersome) what you would need to find is a lawyer willing to act as your advocate to make some noise and become a nuisance to the university. If you're at a private school, and your lawyer is good (read: a real bastard) the school will likely cave and provide you with what you need. If this is a state school... other issues may come into play, since they probably operate differently. 

Other resources you might explore: 


Naafa - they have (or, had - I'm not up on their current status) methods for addressing legal issues
American Diabetes Association - has a strong legal department - if you're diabetic, it would be a stretch to use them - but definitely a powerful organization
Local and national media - It can be intimidating to become the poster-child on telelvision for a cause - but, it's powerful, and usually gets the job done. Consumer advocate reporters love this kinda stuff.

I hope you don't have to go to these lengths, but best of luck to you if you do. Please keep us informed and let us know if there's anything else we can do to help.


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## Violet_Beauregard (Jan 12, 2007)

I cannot believe these people cannot accomodate you!  It's completely ridiculous! It is absolutely the responsiblity of Disability Services to handle this. How do they accomodate a student in a wheelchair??  For God's sakes...this is not a difficult thing!  

I am not one to sue or threaten to sue, but I would definitely be telling someone that it is a sincere possibility. I'd find an attorney who is willing to go to the University with you and "discuss" the situation with the President. I can guarantee you'll get a table and chair at that point. I'd find myself I nice, fat, female attorney too. 

Stick to your guns, and good luck!!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 12, 2007)

Violet_Beauregard said:


> I cannot believe these people cannot accomodate you!  It's completely ridiculous! It is absolutely the responsiblity of Disability Services to handle this. How do they accomodate a student in a wheelchair??  For God's sakes...this is not a difficult thing!
> 
> I am not one to sue or threaten to sue, but I would definitely be telling someone that it is a sincere possibility. I'd find an attorney who is willing to go to the University with you and "discuss" the situation with the President. I can guarantee you'll get a table and chair at that point. I'd find myself I nice, fat, female attorney too.
> 
> Stick to your guns, and good luck!!



I tend to agree with Vi that a letter or visit from an attorney could be all you need to get a simple seating arrangement.


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## gradstudent (Jan 12, 2007)

Hey Tooz,

I think it's great that you're being tenacious, and awful that it's not working too well so far. While people's advice, such as grabbing a chair from another room, etc., is helpful, the point is that you shouldn't have to do anything extra to be comfortable in a class you're paying for. Have you tried talking to the professors in these classes? They might be able to request a room change. The effort in the beginning might be better than the annoyance of figuring out how you're going to sit through class each week. 

Finally, I found a story on Big Fat Blog told by a woman who, along with other adult classmates (not just fat ones), protested the ridiculous little desks by all refusing to sit in them, standing through class instead. The school eventually had to replace them all. Maybe write a letter to the school paper? I know it might seem pointless, but in a college paper, those get read. It wouldn't have to be only in the name of fat people, but tall people, left-handed people, people who like more than an 8X11 writing space...

Good luck!


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## love dubh (Jan 12, 2007)

tooz said:


> Okay, so I'm probably going to have to sue my university (SUNY Buffalo).
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



We have a member on Dims who's a barrister (kind of like a lawyer). He's based in Britain, but he may be able to give you some advice about what to do. His username here is "mrman1980uk". Look him up. I talk to him on AIM, and I'll tell him about your dilemna. I'll ask him for his e-mail address and forward the info on to you, if possible.


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## Tooz (Jan 12, 2007)

gradstudent said:


> Hey Tooz,
> 
> I think it's great that you're being tenacious, and awful that it's not working too well so far. While people's advice, such as grabbing a chair from another room, etc., is helpful, the point is that you shouldn't have to do anything extra to be comfortable in a class you're paying for. Have you tried talking to the professors in these classes? They might be able to request a room change. The effort in the beginning might be better than the annoyance of figuring out how you're going to sit through class each week.
> 
> ...




I feel you hit the nail on the head. I think it's unfair that I have to constantly work extra to be comfortable somewhere that I am paying to be (no scholarships).


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## SamanthaNY (Jan 12, 2007)

Other resources: 


[*]Tolerance.org - sizing up weight discrimination
The Council on Size and Weight Discrimination
National Education Association Report On Size Discrimination
Love Your Body Day size discrimination fact sheet
American Obesity Association


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## Mystic Rain (Jan 13, 2007)

Shouldn't those forms of seating have gone out with the dinosaurs? >_> I mean, really. Those desks are marginally out of date, and certainly atrocious.

In middle school and all through high school, I had problems with those desks. If I could find one in a classroom that was higher than the normal desks to accomodate more belly room, I'd immediately seize it, and was fine. However, those were few and far between, and I usually had to squeeze myself in a normal sized one. It was extremely uncomfortable, not to mention embarrassing. There were a few times I almost got stuck in those things. Breathing? That was a challenge all onto itself with being squashed like a packed sardine.

A table and chair doesn't take up that much more room than those monstrosities. I was lucky in middle school to have classes in a few rooms where they had the table desk and separate chair. I didn't have to worry whether I'd get stuck or not, and I could concentrate better on the class itself without having my mind ask "how much longer?"

Definitely stick to your guns, and push them until they cave. It's not that much trouble to them to be able to provide you a separate table desk and chair.


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## Tina (Jan 13, 2007)

The school is legally bound to _reasonably_ accomodate you if they accept any government funding whatsoever. They must give you a separate table and chair, and should actually have at least one in ever classroom, so that people are not tempted to move them from room to room (though they are not obligated to do so). Having one's table moved is a common problem, and I ended up putting an obvious note on it stating that it is not to be moved, which did help. 

I suggest you write this person a letter, by snail mail, and outline as succinctly as possible what has happened, and what you expect. I would C.C. it to the school's president, as well as whatever city or county legal overseer for such things, and possibly even the governor, senator, etc. Doing this lets them know they cannot just blow you off and that you _will_ be satisfied, and by the sweat of their brow, too.

Sorry that I'm not at my best right now, of I would have better advice, but I believe you should stand up for yourself, and do it in a professional way that lets those jerks know that you know your rights and won't just be steamrolled (and on that note, educate yourself as much as possible as to just what they are bound to do legally, so that you can speak to them with the authority that information will give you. Go to the top if you have to. Good luck to you.


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## out.of.habit (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't have much more to add than _Take Them Down_, any way you can. Let us know if there is any way that we can help. I mistakenly thought SUNY schools were more forward-thinking than that. What an incredibly frustrating disappointment. Ought we brainstorm ways to make noise about this?


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## Wagimawr (Jan 13, 2007)

love dubh said:


> We have a member on Dims who's a barrister (kind of like a lawyer). He's based in Britain, but he may be able to give you some advice about what to do. His username here is "mrman1980uk". Look him up. I talk to him on AIM, and I'll tell him about your dilemna. I'll ask him for his e-mail address and forward the info on to you, if possible.



In addition to that suggestion, drop Russell Williams a PM - this is right up his alley.


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## ripley (Jan 13, 2007)

I don't have anything to add to all this good advice, but I just wanted to say that I get scared when I think of going back to college because of these very things, and I think you are a strong and awesome person for keeping on fighting the good fight. You might make things for all the fat people at your university better, and you should feel proud of yourself for that.


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## missaf (Jan 13, 2007)

Not that I'm volunteering him, but NYEMTEsq might know of someone or be able to write a letter for you as well.


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## 1300 Class (Jan 13, 2007)

Can the Student Union not help? Or are they as lackadaisic as ever? All I can say is, keep up the good fight, don't give up!!


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## TallFatSue (Jan 13, 2007)

tooz said:


> I may be driven to sue, it seems.


Wow, this thread really caught my eye, but for a completely different reason. It caught me off guard, like I might be having some unexpected guests or something! :doh: 

My husband was driven to Sue, but that's a whole 'nother story. :smitten: 

Sue (who firmly believes in chocolate torte reform)


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## bigmovesbabe (Jan 13, 2007)

I've gone back to school three times in my adult life: once to get a copyediting certificate, once to get my dance instructor certificate (oh, yes, there were still a couple of classes with desks!), and once to get my master's degree in arts administration. All three times I was driven to distraction at the beginning of the term to strategize ways to get my seating. A few times I was lucky enough to get teachers who advocated for me in getting tables and armless chair seating, but mostly I just hijacked tables and seating from other classrooms (stole chairs from the next room and turned one of the seating units sideways). Not incredibly comfortable, but usable.

Nonetheless, it is bullshit that your school won't help you out. It's true that weight discrimination is not recognized hardly everywhere, but it's just not nice. If you want to take legal action, here are a couple more resources to look into...

http://www.obesitylaw.com/
Their main type of case seems to be suing to get fat people access to stomach mutilation procedures (which is just one of the paradoxes around WLS: you can be too fat to have one, apparently). However, they also say they handle discrimination issues as well. I'm scared by their free use of the words "obese" and "obesity", not to mention "morbidly", but it may be a resource.

Sondra Solovay, Esq.
Beyond Bias
2625 Alcatraz Avenue PMB #261
Berkeley, CA 94705
Fax: 510-452-2114
Email: [email protected]

Sondra rocks my world. We used to dance together in the Fat-Bottom Revue (an all-fat burlesque troupe in SF that, sadly, is no more), when I was starting out my dance career and she was doing law school by day. She's graduated, written a book called "Tipping the Scales of Justice," and now does legal work and training around size and weight discrimination. She's a fierce fat activist, and very, very keen. Drop her a line and see if she'll talk to you.

Marina


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## BBW Betty (Jan 13, 2007)

Tooz, I remember those days all too well. I don't understand why they think college students at all should be using the same size desks as middle school kids. :doh: 

When I was in college, I barely managed the desks. I'm just floored by how unhelpful the administration can be. There's lot of good advice in some of these posts. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.


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## Russell Williams (Jan 13, 2007)

Wagimawr said:


> In addition to that suggestion, drop Russell Williams a PM - this is right up his alley.





I was reading through this and got this far. Over the years have found that one method that often works to accomplish social change is to be able to state that I am representing an organization or a committee of an organization (but it must be a real position that I actually hold) and then start to ask questions. To not threatened or yell at the people but just keep asking questions and making it obvious that I'm writing the answers down. To make it clear that I'm writing down the name of the person I'm talking to and the time that we talked. To read back a summary of what was said and to ask the person if I correctly stated that person's position. As the situation develops I try to figure out what other individuals or groups I can get involved in the situation. For instance, if the school has some sort of a newsletter, asking for the phone number of the school newsletter editor is a perfectly proper thing to do.

For starters I need to be a member of an organization with a position and part of my assignment has to be to investigate this. Right now I can choose to be the activism vice president of International Size Acceptance Association or the chairperson of Emmanuel United Methodist Church social concerns committee. See below

"The Administrative Board of Emmanuel United Methodist Church supports and encourages legal, loving, efforts to reduce human suffering. In particular we support reasonable efforts by the Church and Society Committee to provide adequate seating to meet the needs of all people in public accommodations and to provide shelter and basic human needs to the homeless. "


Since NAAFA is better known and I am a NAAFA member it might also be possible for somebody in NAAFA who has the power to do so to apoint me to be the head of an ad hoc NAAFA committee assigned to deal with this task. I cannot guarantee success but politely, persistently, and gently, I can rattle some cages. The first thing I will need to do is to have a clear understanding that the person most affected wants my involvement, then I need to ask questions until I carefully understand the nuances of the situation. Then I need to get some phone numbers of some of the people involved in the situation.

By e-mail I am sending my phone number to the person who started this discussion.

Since that person has probably never heard of me and will want to know the dangers of interacting with me I would appreciate if some people here would let her know their thoughts about whether or not she should consider my offer of help.

Yours truly,

Russell Williams


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## MissToodles (Jan 13, 2007)

I had similar problems at a cuny school. These places are huge buracracies and to cut through the red tape is quite the ordeal. Are they movable desks? Can you for now, move one, leave the desk part up and use another desk to write on? You're paying tutition, and they should accomodate you!


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 13, 2007)

I feel as if I ought to put in my two cents here, because, being on the lowest possible level of the college bureaucracy (department chairman), I have to deal with @#$%^&*! administrators every day, and I know how they think. First off, Tina's advice is golden: letter to Disabilities, copies to the Dean of your college and the Prisident of SUNYAB. _Do not threaten to sue_! If your case _does_ come to court, you want to present the picture of a sweet, sincere victim of uncaring bureaucrats, so don't be scary. _Do_ consult a lawyer, and if the university doesn't take care of you right away, then let _him_ be scary for you. It's what lawyers do best. 
Pray that it does not go to court. A SSBBW of my acquaintance had a hotel bed collapse under her. The hotel offered her a settlement, but she was thinking of suing them for a larger sum instead. This is a summation of what her lawyer told her:
"You know how our society deals with fat people, and so does the opposition's lawyer. He will paint you as a stupid glutton who, after deliberately bloating herself to monstrous proportions, has the infernal nerve to demand that the world re-design itself to fit her. And a jury of American fatphobics will applaud him. Settle out of court if you can."
So go get 'em, tiger! But do it carefully; you have to be smarter than they are. Fortunately, with bureaucrats, that's not hard.


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## Tooz (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks so much for the advice and offers, everyone. I don't know if I will need the (very generous) offers quite yet, but I will certainly keep you posted. I am awaiting responses from the people that have been e-mailed.


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## Jane (Jan 13, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> I was reading through this and got this far. Over the years have found that one method that often works to accomplish social change is to be able to state that I am representing an organization or a committee of an organization (but it must be a real position that I actually hold) and then start to ask questions. To not threatened or yell at the people but just keep asking questions and making it obvious that I'm writing the answers down. To make it clear that I'm writing down the name of the person I'm talking to and the time that we talked. To read back a summary of what was said and to ask the person if I correctly stated that person's position. As the situation develops I try to figure out what other individuals or groups I can get involved in the situation. For instance, if the school has some sort of a newsletter, asking for the phone number of the school newsletter editor is a perfectly proper thing to do.
> 
> For starters I need to be a member of an organization with a position and part of my assignment has to be to investigate this. Right now I can choose to be the activism vice president of International Size Acceptance Association or the chairperson of Emmanuel United Methodist Church social concerns committee. See below
> 
> ...



Isn't he a reasonable sweetheart!!!!

I, on the other hand, have shown my ass up one side and down the other, then had people come up and thank me for doing it so they didn't have to.

Tall people have problems with those stupid desks as well. As do those with back problems, and anyone who still has a sense of feeling in their ass.

Whatever it takes, do it.


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## saucywench (Jan 13, 2007)

tooz, I read your post immediately after you posted it. It instantly triggered some thoughts and emotions, and I wanted time to think about it all. This morning I read everyone's replies, and I fired up Word to compose a response of my own. I can't seem to say what I want to in a cohesive fashion, so instead I'm just going to throw out some thoughts as line items (in no particular order):

Reading of your experience provoked me, for a number of reasons.
I would be more than willing to assist you in composing/editing any documentation of your complaint.
Reading all of the responses, I am reminded of what a tremendous community we have. It's heartening to see how willingly our members are quick to offer empathy/support/advice/solutions.
Re: the above, I am reminded also of how powerful, effective, and influential we would be if we could only unite as a collective force toward reducing the ignorance and hatred that is inherent in fat discrimination/bias/bigotry.
I was grateful for the opportunity to re-educate myself on a few things. While surfing the Internet to gather information for my planned response, I re-read the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. From there I read Wikipedia entries on liberty and coercion--very informative. I also went to your school's site and read up on some things there.
Those school desks are medieval torture devices, and they're discriminatory for a variety of reasons. As an element of persuasion in making your case, I would consider arranging for a time slot the next time your school's board of trustees meets. Have one of these desks (or, better yet, one for each member) available. Be sure that a representative of two from administration, disability services, purchasing/procurement, and study body government is present. The ideal scenario would be to have each attendee sit at a desk for the duration of the meeting. Ask them near the conclusion of the meeting how well they were able to sit comfortably and focus, without physical distraction, on the matters at hand.
I don't believe in being overly litigious, but this is an instance for which I feel you have a valid claim. I wouldn't throw the word 'lawyer' around, though, unless you're prepared to employ one. The best thing to do is gather evidence, which your initial post seems to provide, in making your claim. I would think it would be helpful to look at the steps you took in registering, and paying, for classes. Somewhere amid those transactions a contract was implied, whether overt or not. You need to know what it was the university was promising you in return for your payment, and the conditions under which you would receive that which was being offered.
I'm very interested to know how this all turns out.


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## Tina (Jan 13, 2007)

bigmovesbabe said:


> It's true that weight discrimination is not recognized hardly everywhere, but it's just not nice.



True, but the ADA is, and _that_ is what will help her, if it has to go that far.


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## Prime4347 (Jan 14, 2007)

I had a slightly similar situation a few years back. I fractured the joints in my arm and leg three weeks before my final exam. Well, when I get back to the dorm from the hospital, I find that there's no handicap ramp. It turns out that my university interpreted the ADA as "Pick your favorite handicap and become accessible to it." My university hand chosen the blind.

I went the the Disability office and talked to the head there. As soon as I rolled into his office, he sees my wheelchair and starts digging through his desk. I tell him my predicament and he hands me a stack of forms. He explains that he feels I would be best suited by dropping out of college. He then explains that the university would give me incompletes on all the classes that I've taken (and was kicking ass in) and that they would also refund my tuition, prorated for the three weeks left in the semester. He also explained all this with a subtext of "our lawyers are better than anything you can afford, so go ahead and sue."

Luckily, I somehow found the brains and guts to tell him to shove off. He explained how the university's disability services couldn't really do anything for me and basically told me I was on my own. I wasn't, however. He might have been a worthless slimeball, but his employees weren't. Granted, their boss kept their hands tied, but they told me where I could go to get actual help. After contacting several maintenance workers for various buildings, we jerryrigged a system by which I could get through my classes. Granted, it wasn't pleasant or dignified (and actually involved me crawling at some parts), but I did manage get the grades that I had worked for all semester.

My advice is to send off the required letters to the people in charge, but also find the people who do the real work around the university. It may take some hunting and networking, but you'll find some odd people who can help you get through the day.


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## NYEmtEsq (Jan 14, 2007)

Hi there Tooz. I saw your post, and I can sympathize about sitting in those medieval torture racks they have in colleges. Unfortunately, the law does not look favorably on obesity when it comes to reasonable accommodation claims (as opposed to improper termination claims or retaliation claims). Here's a blurb from a somewhat recent New York federal case (Furst v State of NY Unified Court System, 1999 WL 1021817 [EDNY 1999]):

Except in special cases, obesity is not a physical impairment within the meaning of the [ADA]. Francis v. City of Meriden, 129 F.3d 281, 286 (2d Cir.1997); see also EEOC v. Texas Bus Lines, 923 F.Supp. 965, 975-76 (S.D.Tex.1996) (citing cases); 29 C.F.R. Pt. 1630, App. ([E]xcept in rare circumstances, obesity is not considered a disabling impairment). Plaintiffs have succeeded in establishing obesity as a physical impairment under the ADA only where they are morbidly obese or they suffer from a weight condition that is the symptom of a physiological disorder. See Francis, 129 F.3d at 286 (citing Cook v. State of Rhode Island, Dep't of Mental Health, Retardation, and Hosps., 10 F.3d 17, 25 (1st Cir.1993) (finding physical impairment from morbid obesity]) and 29 C.F.R. § 1630.2(h) (requiring physiological disorder)); see also Andrews v. State of Ohio, 104 F.3d 803, 808-09 (6th Cir.1997) (finding no physical impairment from simple obesity); Butterfield v. New York State, 1998 WL 401533, at 8 (S.D.N.Y.1998) (finding physical impairment from morbid obesity).

I don't know what your physical stats are (BMI), but in looking at the two cases above where morbid obesity alone was a sufficient disability, the BMI involved was at least 65 (one guy was probably around 80 given his height to weight). Moreover, the cases on the subject generally involve more than just sitting in a tight space but, rather, bona-fide employment qualifications (one of the above plaintiffs was a court officer, and another was in a position where she would have to restrain mentally ill patients). 

I know that this is a personal question, but is your obesity directly related to a diagnosed medical condition (such as hypothyroidism), or is it like many of us (myself included) where you try to lose weight and just seem to hit a wall after a while and can't lose another ounce? It's not an easy case (many people misunderstand the application of the ADA and think it covers almost anything, when this is the furthest thing from the truth), but having an underlying medical condition might be able to help you in what you're looking for. Also, given the public view on the obese (seeing as how it's one of the last acceptable prejudices), I'm not sure how far you would get if you brought this to the attention of the local media. 

I'm sorry to be a pessimist, but I just want you to have an idea as to what you may be in for before you go tilting at windmills.


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## Tooz (Jan 14, 2007)

NYEmtEsq said:


> Hi there Tooz. I saw your post, and I can sympathize about sitting in those medieval torture racks they have in colleges. Unfortunately, the law does not look favorably on obesity when it comes to reasonable accommodation claims (as opposed to improper termination claims or retaliation claims). Here's a blurb from a somewhat recent New York federal case (Furst v State of NY Unified Court System, 1999 WL 1021817 [EDNY 1999]):
> 
> Except in special cases, obesity is not a physical impairment within the meaning of the [ADA]. Francis v. City of Meriden, 129 F.3d 281, 286 (2d Cir.1997); see also EEOC v. Texas Bus Lines, 923 F.Supp. 965, 975-76 (S.D.Tex.1996) (citing cases); 29 C.F.R. Pt. 1630, App. ([E]xcept in rare circumstances, obesity is not considered a disabling impairment). Plaintiffs have succeeded in establishing obesity as a physical impairment under the ADA only where they are morbidly obese or they suffer from a weight condition that is the symptom of a physiological disorder. See Francis, 129 F.3d at 286 (citing Cook v. State of Rhode Island, Dep't of Mental Health, Retardation, and Hosps., 10 F.3d 17, 25 (1st Cir.1993) (finding physical impairment from morbid obesity]) and 29 C.F.R. § 1630.2(h) (requiring physiological disorder)); see also Andrews v. State of Ohio, 104 F.3d 803, 808-09 (6th Cir.1997) (finding no physical impairment from simple obesity); Butterfield v. New York State, 1998 WL 401533, at 8 (S.D.N.Y.1998) (finding physical impairment from morbid obesity).
> 
> ...



Well, citations aside, I've already considered a lot of this. And, no, I'm healthy. I have no health issues whatsoever. I've just always been big. I find it fucking insane, though, that something like this is becoming a roadblock. I either stop going to class or become some kind of pariah because I have to use two desks (one with the table up, and one to write on). It's hard to make social with people as it is, that would just make it worse.


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## liz (di-va) (Jan 14, 2007)

1) My first thought? I am so mad on your behalf! You can be sure it twangs fat folk strings, this sitch.

2) Sondra Solovay (thanks, bigmoves).

3) I really think you could get some results here without suing (esp SUNY system, oy). Good advice here all around, esp. from Dr. Feelgood. Make sure you start letting those in charge know, if you haven't already.

Just lettin you know I'm pulling for you--gawwd! Jerks.


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## EvilPrincess (Jan 14, 2007)

Tooz, 

Do you know if the school has made accommodations for anyone else. I am thinking athletes, football players. When I look way back on my college days I seem to remember different accommodations for athletes that were big, tables and chairs instead of old style school desks. This may have set a precedent for having your accommodation needs met.


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## butch (Jan 14, 2007)

Hi Tooz,

Here's a website that is directly about the chair issue in colleges-

http://www.ifisher.com/school/index.htm

I haven't read too deeply there yet, but I imagine it will have lots of helpful hints for you. One thing I do know about this fat student's research-the newer the seat/desk, the smaller the dimensions. Just like with airlines, as the population gets fatter, the seating gets smaller, even if the media prefers to do stories on how the ferry in Seattle, for example, has to widen its seats. 

I have the same problem as you do, and here are some observations-

I brought up the problem with one of my professors, who is a disability studies scholar and has connections at my school's disability support services. He was super supportive, told me disability support services had to help me, but I ended up not needing to contact them (yet).

Even though they are not part of SUNY, I know Syracuse has a very strong disability studies contingent there, and they may be able to give you pointers on how to get your school's disability support services to help you. Other schools with strong disability studies programs are Ohio State and University of Illinois Chicago, and contacting any of these departments might help. Regardless of whether 'obesity' is covered under the ADA, disability studies scholars are familiar with the work of Sander Gilman, who argues that 'obesity' does meet the definition of 'disability' under the ADA, so I'm sure any disability studies scholars and activists you might contact would give you great ideas on how to get the ADA to work for you, if need be.

If I'm not in a seminar room, I end up using two desks, since the desks have tables that fold down. Yes, it sucks, and it broadcasts to the room that you're too fat for the desk, but you know what? The people who like you don't care, and the people who have a problem with it have a problem with fat people, period, not just fat people who don't fit into small desks designed for people who weigh under 200 pounds. Believe me, if you're at a school with a lot of football and basketball players, they don't fit in those desks any better than you do. That is something to think about when you approach the administration, since, as others have said, its not just fat people who are uncomfortable in these desks. 

Of course I can say 'screw 'em' 'cuz I'm no longer in my twenties. When I was in my twenties, I don't think I'd be able to say that, so I understand how difficult it is to deal with a situation that magnifies your size. But even if I don't feel it (and believe me, it still sucks sometimes to sit in a class where you have to arrange and navigate where you'll sit because of your size), I always behave in class as if what I'm doing is no different than what the people who fit into one desk with no problem are doing. And you know what? Some people think I'm really confident because I don't act as if my body somehow devalues who I am when I'm in the classroom, and that was a real shock to me. So, for the person who thinks less kindly about you because of your size, another person will admire your moxy.

Hope this helps, and please let us know what happens. The advice and support you've gotten has been great, and thanks for all the good info. I wish you the best, and don't let the bastards deny you an education!


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## butch (Jan 14, 2007)

I realised that my use of disability in the previous post might need an explanation. When I talk about fatness meeting the definition of disability, I'm using this theorem in the context of disability studies, an academic and activist discipline that argues that disabled people are not pathological, defective, incomplete, or in need of fixing. Instead, disabled bodies are a naturally occurring part of the spectrum of human bodies, and should be treated as such. Much like Size/Fat Acceptance, disabled people are not looking for a 'cure,' do not feel that they are outside the norm, and are working to eradicate the stigma attached to disability. When scholars such as Sander Gilman argue that fat=disability, they are not doing so to make a negative claim about fat bodies, but to help show how very narrow and non-normal the idea of a 'normal' body is. As many disability activists say, if you live long enough, you'll become disabled (due to the natural effects of aging), so a lot of things would fall under the rubric of disabled that we might not even be aware of, including fatness.

Two good books to read about disability studies would be:

Claiming Disability by Simi Linton, and
Extraordinary Bodies by Rosemarie Garland Thomson.

Hope this clarifies my suggestions to Tooz about contacting various disability studies departments for help.


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## crazygrad (Jan 14, 2007)

Hi, Tooz,
I'm sorry you're having this problem. College is supposed to be a great time of learning and exploration and Fun- all of which is hard to haveif you can't focus because of such things.

I teach college so here are my suggestions to add to the mix.

1- have you thought of talking to your instructors? Some may be more sympathetic than you think or at least pride themselves on creating an environment conducive to learning and will do whatever they can to provide that for all their students. Instructors often have access to rooms (like departmental conference rooms) that sometimes aren't part of the general room pool and can often get results when a room change is needed.

2- do your buildings have a coordinator? If so, the coordinator may be a good person to contact and network with. They often have suggestions to improve access for students and they usually are on good terms with building staffs so they can talk to the folks who switch out furniture on your behalf. 

3- I'd also say go back to disability services. Not saying your disabled, but at least at my university, they spearhead access issues for students. So think about it as an access question. If you're not connecting with someone, try someone else! Like with instructors, you are bound to find someone who either sympathizes/relates or simply wants ALL students to get the best experience possible. They might have alternatives for you, suggestions or can help intercede with physical facilities on your behalf.

4- do you have an ombudsman? They are specifically assigned the role of taking students' complaints. And they've heard it all... they want to address student complaints because all schools have a vested interest in keeping their students around. Uni rankings are based, in part, in retention and 4 and 5 year grad rates- so they want you to stay and do well.

5- contact student advocacy services. Perhaps they can get a ball rolling on your behalf, offer suggestions or refer you to other offices.

None of these suggestions address the underlying issue of social discrimination, but law suits, and getting the media involved take time and with classes starting (or havings started), you want to be able to start the semester on a good foot- in a desk that allows you to flourish as a student.

Best to you!


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## Tooz (Jan 14, 2007)

crazygrad said:


> I'd also say go back to disability services. Not saying your disabled, but at least at my university, they spearhead access issues for students.



I appreciate the helpful suggestions, but I've been to disabilities three or four times, and they repeatedly tell me that they can do nothing for me.


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## love dubh (Jan 14, 2007)

Then there is the plain, old take-it-to-the-streets approach. Find other students who cannot tolerate these desks, whether they are fat, tall, left-handed, have back injuries, etc etc. 

Get these people together. Ask your professors if you may make a short announcement before class (they are usually pretty cool about it). Be succinct and discuss the problem; phrase it in terms encompassing all the people effected. Get them thinking! Then, in a following class, bring a sheet of paper for people to sign their emails to. Create a base!

Discuss your situations. Do your research and print up literature; in even something as simple as a quarter sheet, just pinpoint the various demographics effected by the tiny desks. Strength in numbers wins this game; they may blow off one student contesting the desks, but when you get tens, twenties, hundreds of students? It's a little harder to ignore.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 14, 2007)

crazygrad said:


> 3- I'd also say go back to disability services. Not saying your disabled, but at least at my university, they spearhead access issues for students. So think about it as an access question. If you're not connecting with someone, try someone else! Like with instructors, you are bound to find someone who either sympathizes/relates or simply wants ALL students to get the best experience possible. They might have alternatives for you, suggestions or can help intercede with physical facilities on your behalf.



I agree (and hey, I've missed you, crazygrad, where ya been?) The disability services office helps ALL students with special needs, even if they're not disabled. I've found them to be most helpful for my other friends who, while not disabled, needed changes in the learning environment. And when I had issues surrounding my disabled tag for my car, they were awesome. 

Like Tina said, all of our classrooms had tables with chairs (yeah, with arms, unfortunately). Often in the front corner, but the board and prof were visible. I'm surprised your university doesn't have them.

Oh, and have you thought about talking to your academic advisor? They can be a great resource and advocate. Your student health center, if you're having physical problems from the desk/chairs might be helpful, too.

Good luck, Tooz. Nobody should have to work so hard to get an education.


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## Tooz (Jan 14, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> \The disability services office helps ALL students with special needs, even if they're not disabled. I've found them to be most helpful for my other friends who, while not disabled, needed changes in the learning environment.



You'd think that would be the case here, but they've actually turned out to be the least helpful.


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## crazygrad (Jan 14, 2007)

Hey! Woman, I had computer trouble and was crazy busy. Tried to rep you on a post in the Hyde but apparently still need to spread some, even though I hadn't spread any in months.

But I digress... Tooz, I did note that you'd been to your dis. services several times. I stand by the suggestion. You never know when you might get someone who is willing to help or has already helped someone in a comparable situation.


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## eightyseven (Jan 14, 2007)

I wish I had advice for you, but I'm just expressing my sympathies. I absolutely hate those two-in-one desk/chair things, and I'm not that big of a guy (5'10'' and 260 lbs). We have those in my foreign language recitations (two hours long, one break for five minutes... three times a week) and I always have to get to class early to find the one with the most space in between the chair and desk part. It's frustrating. I know. Even in lecture halls, I've had problems too. Those chairs are not made for wide people. I've ripped the top of my jeans pockets since they got caught on the arms of the chair. Also, the desks that fold out from the arms of the chairs don't work for me since I have big thighs (for a guy, anyway). I'm too big for it to lay flat, which is pain when you're trying to take notes at warpspeed. I just sit at a table in the back now and hope that I can hear the professor.

I wish you all the best of luck, and I'm sad you've come across these problems especially at a place (a university) which is supposed to be one of the more progressive environments we have in this country.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jan 15, 2007)

Tooz, I had the same issue when I went back to school. What I did was get a signed letter from my doctor detailing the accommodations that I needed (including separate desks & chairs, a first-floor dorm room and air conditioning in my room during the warmer months). Our disabilities office has worked with me flawlessly from day one, probably because of that letter. It doesn't need to say you're disabled - it just needs to say you require "the following accomodations" due to your medical condition(s) (my doc listed obesity & asthma). 

Try taking a doc's note to the disability office. That's probably all they require.


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## Tooz (Jan 16, 2007)

Alright, I have a positive update.

Apparently, the woman assigned as my contact for this was misinformed. After my mother and I explained what needed to be done, she was shocked and told us she got some bad information and that she was sorry. The people she spoke with about it hadn't talked with me since last October, so I guess what I said got a little rusty or something.

Anyway, apparently this woman is married to a large/BHM-type man. She agreed that the desks were absolutely horrible and as we speak she is in a meeting with the head of disabilities and his superior, a manager in facilities. They are working on a permanent solution to this problem for the whole university. They all agree it's a major problem, and I'm not the only one putting in complaints about these desk units.

While it obviously won't be fixed today, I actually went to campus yesterday and did some movign around of my own. We told my contact about it, and she's put a memo out to classroom maintenance to NOT move any chairs/different seating they may find in any classroom.

Thanks so much to everyone here who has offered morale boosters and help of any kind. You guys helped me keep my chin up. I know this isn't over yet, but I thought it would be good to let everyone know I think things are looking up.


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## butch (Jan 16, 2007)

Tooz,

That's great! I'm so glad things are working out for you, and I'm especially glad that your contact is seeing that this is a university-wide concern, and taking steps to make sure everyone can be accommodated in the classroom.

Good luck with the semester, and congrats on overcoming all the crap to be a force for good for all the other big/tall/etc. folks at your school who need better seating arrangements.


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## Tina (Jan 16, 2007)

Glad to hear it, Tooz. I was hoping it would resolve like this, as most colleges are pretty reasonable about this stuff. Once you have found a good person to go to, keep that contact! Were they to really look at complaints, they would find that it's not only fat people complaining about those desks; they hurt the backs of, and are uncomfortable for, a lot of thin people, too.


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## moore2me (Jan 16, 2007)

Tooz,

I too had major chair trouble while attending night classes at my local college. I went to school there for three years are managed to graduate and had to deal with those silly, plastic, one-piece grade school chairs and trying to find room for my fat bottom and pear-shaped stomach. (We also had some equally evil plastic chairs that were attached with swivel brackets to amphitheater seating.) 

Some things that worked for me:

1) As suggested previously, get to class early, steal a loose chair from another open room or even the teacher's chair. Claim this for yourself for the night. Repeat as needed. I have been known to drag a chair down the hall several rooms away. I then used the desk from one of the plastic chairs to write on.

2) If necessary, solicit the help of a classmate(s) to drag or move chairs. Charm, money, treats, or other bribes are helpful.

3) If seating was fixed, most teachers found out that it was better if they put me at the back of the room. I became a tad little too disruptive or too distractive to be at the front of the room. 

4) I even brought my own folding chair from home when I knew seating would not be available. This definitely required someone to help me carry it. Or, you could use a wheeled-cart (like airline attendants use) to carry it.

5) Talking to the college bureaucracy about the problem didn't help. Talking to the little person may help - the maintenance staff, the janitor, the housekeeper. For instance, they might let you leave your folding chair in a closet - however, I would put a bike lock on it.


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## crazygrad (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm so glad things look like they could be resolved for you! Oh, if you ever do come in and find seats moved, don't necessarily go and flip out with housekeeping. Lots of instructors have students move seats for group activities and stuff. You definitely want to keep building staffs on your side- they can really help out, especially as you're smoothing things out with all the offices.

Good luck with classes!


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## liz (di-va) (Jan 18, 2007)

tooz said:


> Alright, I have a positive update.
> 
> Apparently, the woman assigned as my contact for this was misinformed. After my mother and I explained what needed to be done, she was shocked and told us she got some bad information and that she was sorry. The people she spoke with about it hadn't talked with me since last October, so I guess what I said got a little rusty or something.
> 
> ...



This is so great! I'm really glad to hear it. Hope it keeps going that way--


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## BBW Betty (Jan 18, 2007)

Yay, I'm so glad things are improving. Thanks for the update, and good luck with your classes.


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## Tooz (Jan 18, 2007)

Thanks so much, everyone.


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## onefunbbw (Jan 19, 2007)

Actually in many places they do apply ADA to people of size. But you have to claim to be disabled to be covered. I'm sure about New York. 

Don't let this stop your education. If you have to, get a folding chair or folding camping chair and bring your own or maybe they could provide just the chair. Moving tables in is their pain. Maybe just a folding chair could help.

When I went back to school, I was fearful of the the same issue. To add to my hip size, I have knee issues which prevent me from having them bent for long periods of time.

When I went and talked to the school, I told them up front that it would be a deal breaker. I had to be comfortable. I got lucky. The University of Phoenix uses standard tables and chairs. When I went to their traditional campus, I was just picky on where I sat so people didn't try to get in behind me.

Don't let the chairs stop you from going back or getting an education.


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## JustinDulge (Feb 2, 2007)

I just read about your whole ordeal. Really shitty. Glad it could (finally) be addressed somehow. I'd say you should contact Dennis Black if things still aren't working out like they should.

My girlfriend has had problems with UB's bureaucracy too. They billed her $500 because they refunded too much on her TAP or something, and they took forever to send out information to ECC, where she's taking classes now. Her advisors also gave her the runaround and didn't stay on top of things like they should have. I read about recent changes to stuff like the SRC that should be taking effect soon as part of the whole UB2020 thing, so hopefully things will become much less stressful in the future (considering I'm gonna be there for another four years).


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## Tooz (Feb 2, 2007)

JustinDulge said:


> I just read about your whole ordeal. Really shitty. Glad it could (finally) be addressed somehow. I'd say you should contact Dennis Black if things still aren't working out like they should.
> 
> My girlfriend has had problems with UB's bureaucracy too. They billed her $500 because they refunded too much on her TAP or something, and they took forever to send out information to ECC, where she's taking classes now. Her advisors also gave her the runaround and didn't stay on top of things like they should have. I read about recent changes to stuff like the SRC that should be taking effect soon as part of the whole UB2020 thing, so hopefully things will become much less stressful in the future (considering I'm gonna be there for another four years).



Wow, didn't know there were other Dims people at UB. Thanks, though. I wrote his name down.


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## XGuy (Feb 6, 2007)

Heh I chose to just never take classes in those rooms, thus far it has worked (luckily it's only in the really old buildings). Though I cannot physically fit into them they are so tiny. I mean I'm pretty big but still, rediculous. They have some newer ones that are a squeeze but really just fine.

Also didn't read all the responses but disabilities deals with a lot more than disabilities. I was pointed there for ADD- I mean that's not really a disability either. They could try to find a more suitable name but I'm not creative enough to think of one =P


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## Tooz (Feb 6, 2007)

XGuy said:


> disabilities deals with a lot more than disabilities.



Not at UB. Seriously. I went there like five times and they consistently turned me away. I spoke directly with the head of the department, too.


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## MissMirandaRae (Feb 6, 2007)

god, I remember those helish seats.

being that most of my weight is in my hips and butt and not my stomach I could kind of sqeeeze in to them but I could usualy on fit one cheek to a seat. I total understand how painfull it is because I used to have to perch out sideways and have a leg sticking in the aisle just to hold me up...

then...half way through the class I would get sciatica pain because of the chair pressing on a nerve.

I just dont understand why it is so hard for schools now adays to just use separate desks and chairs in a college situation...


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## BitsyAintMyName (Feb 6, 2007)

Hey tooz! I had a few bad experiences with those desk/chairs at ECC but mainly because my boobs kept pushing my books off the desk.




*shrug* I never took any notes anyway so I guess it wasn't that big of a deal. I spent most my time daydreaming about stuff like this


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## crazygrad (Feb 6, 2007)

Hi, Tooz, how's the chair situation shaping up? Things better this semester?

Wishing you the best!


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## Tooz (Feb 13, 2007)

UPDATE:
I've recieved an e-mail from the facilities department. There is apparently a committee in charge of deciding on seating. They now have come to the decision that over the summer, they will add to every room at least two "barrier-free" seating options. I'll post the e-mail here later.

This is happening directly because of what my mother and I said and did. I feel...accomplished. For a university of like 20,000 students, this is a huge change to be made from just two people.

Score one for me.
:batting:


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## bigsexy920 (Feb 13, 2007)

Very Well Done. Students down the line long after you are gone will be thankful for the change you have made. 

Really wonderful job.


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## butch (Feb 13, 2007)

Tooz,

That is fantastic news. I'm happy to hear that you were able to make lasting change, and hope that more schools follow the lead of yours. 

My sincere thanks and appreciation for your perserverance! It serves as a great role model for the rest of us.


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## ThatFatGirl (Feb 13, 2007)

Amazing and inspiring, Tooz! Congratulations!


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## Canonista (Feb 13, 2007)

tooz said:


> UPDATE:
> Score one for me.
> :batting:



_"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to tooz again"_

You totally rock!


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## Santaclear (Feb 14, 2007)

Fabulous, Tooz!  :bow:


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