# Feminism: pros and cons



## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

I decided to take the discussion to a new thread, since its currently in the polygamy thread.

Here is an article that might provide some fodder for discussion; I think the author's observations are interesting..

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2535.html


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 24, 2006)

"...the painful truth is that feminism has gradually metamorphosed into a movement that trains women to gain government imposed advantages over men, while at the same time remaining dependent upon men’s money and the government, all under the false rhetoric of 'rights' and 'empowerment.'"

Yes, because I've received SO many perks as a woman. I can't name one.

"Women are no longer viewed as primarily 'nurturing' or 'emotional' creatures, but are judged on their individual qualities."

That's why everyone asks me if I'm married or have kids and don't ask men? 
"Feminists like abortion..."

Oh. I LOVE abortion. Yeah, it's my favorite thing in the world. Thanks for telling me what I like.

"Consequently, this has left the feminist movement with very little left to do for women, other than helping women in less fortunate countries. To remain relevant in the U.S. and other democratic countries, feminists have championed odd issues, issues that are not about women’s equality, but are about getting one-up on men."

Yes, so right. We have nothing to accomplish here, like getting equal pay. And helping third world women? Pfft. That's nothing admirable.

And yeah, all I care about is getting one up on men. I have this giant evil map on my wall describing how to "get one up" on all men. And I certainly don't have any men in my life that I treasure and respect.

"Yet aborting children does not help women become equal to men. To the contrary, it devalues women’s ability to bring life into the world, gives them a guilty conscience, and allows men to have sex with women and leave them, which is a practice that society should be trying to stop, not encourage." 

I'm so glad the writer knows the mind of everyone who's had an abortion. And men NEVER abandon the women if they have children, right?

"A recent ABC News/Washington Post poll found that a majority of both men and women equally oppose abortion except in very limited circumstances. Around 57% of both men and women oppose abortion except in cases where the mother or fetus might be harmed, or there was rape or incest involved. Clearly, this is not an issue women’s groups should be championing, considering most women are not in favor of mass legal abortion, and it is no more of an issue for them than it is for men."

I like how she gives no sources. See, I can play that game too: A recent NBC poll said Rachel Alexander is full of shit, according to every white woman between 20 and 35.

I'm going to stop there, because I could go on and on. Basically, this woman is promoting her own agenda that every woman should have babies and get married. To boot, she's a crappy writer, and an even worse persuasive writer. There are intelligent anti-feminists out there, but she isn't one of them.


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

I believe it was last year, Faye Wattleton, formerly of Planned Parenthood did a survey and found that slightly over 50% of WOMEN wanted at least some restrictions on legalized abortion. I remember her saying she was "disturbed" by her group's own findings.

Here is a link about it: http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/taku77/refer/leo.htm

Just saw this excerpt from the study they link to there....seems some of my personal views as a woman are not so unique after all...

(begin quote)

Women Are Becoming More Conservative

While the survey did not measure political activism by
religious groups, it shows that women's opinions on a number
of political and social issues have become more conservative
as religious involvement in public issues increases: 

Thirty-six percent of women agree with the Southern
Baptist resolution that "wives should submit graciously
to the leadership of their husbands," *and almost half
(48%) of women feel it is better for society if the man
is the achiever outside the home and the woman takes
care of home and family. *
More women support (43%) than oppose (33%) affirmative
action. However, a large number of women (24%) are
undecided on this issue, indicating significant erosion
in support from two years ago. 

Forty-four percent of women believe divorce should be
more difficult to obtain. 

(end quote)


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 24, 2006)

Most people believed the world was flat in the 1400's. They also thought wife-beating was acceptable. I don't think your views are that unusual. However, I don't think people always know what's best for everyone. I certainly don't think the writer knows. Statistics are meaningless unless you're reading the entire study. You don't know what criteria was used. Example: I want to find out if anyone who has only one eye exists, so I survey my entire county. There are no county people in the whole county. Conclusion: They don't exist. Even if these statistics had validity, again, I don't always think people make the best decisions. Most people are sheep. Look at history; they mostly agree with whatever the most popular sentiment of the elite at the time, unless it's really hurting them.


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## BLUEeyedBanshee (Mar 24, 2006)

I remember reading that same thing about over 50 % of women wanted restrictions. 

And truthfully I probably would have been one of the women who would have said that some restrictions are needed. 

My problem with that issue is that for the most part, there isn't enough counselling and information regarding the procedure. You get much more information when you're going in and having a cyst removed than you do regarding an abortion. My reasons behind this are not to sway women away from having the procedure, but rather that the women be well informed. Imagine that, women understanding what their bodies are going through and the possible psychological difficulties they may face. Not all women would have the same reaction, heck my best friend had a hard time when they did remove a huge (by huge I mean football sized) cyst from her uterus. She felt like there was something missing. She had the doctor take pictures of it for her. Me, I wouldn't do that but I need to be informed about the whole process. I'm sure there may be some who wouldn't want to know (like my grandmother refusing to listen about the procedure for her bypass surgery, however I listened to the surgeon and was fascinated) But there needs to be something done because there isn't enough counselling/explanation, IMHO. Also I know that some women (including more relations of mine) who have had multiple abortions, and didn't have any problems conceiving and having children when they decided they wanted to do so. They've frustrated me because they were acting irresponsibly and not using any form of birth control. On the other hand, a close friend was using birth control, got pregnant, wasn't ready for a baby at that time in her life, opted for an abortion, and ended up with some scar tissue that has caused problems with conception. The whole thing is, women have to make the decision, this is a right should not be taken away. However, women need to be treated just like everyone else going through a procedure that may effect them for the rest of their lives. There needs to be some updating (at least in michigan, not sure about other states) in the process. Making an "informed decision" based on a little flyer that now must be given to the patients, is not sufficient. 

I'm definitely a feminist. I hate how feminists are stereotyped. I hate how any group is stereotyped. I agree the woman who wrote this article is not the best anti-feminist writer. There are many more who write much better than she ever could. (oops I'm stating a big opinion here, maybe she can go to some writing workshops and better herself) 

Women still have a long way to go, and the whole process has been an uphill battle. Every time successful advancement takes place a backlash occurs. *sigh* Oh well I think I've said enough this morning.


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## Emma (Mar 24, 2006)

I'd be quite happy to stay at home and look after the children and house while my husband went out to work. Dunno, to me that's just the way it should be. I don't have an opinion on what other women do, it's up to them.

I think if a woman works she should have equal pay if she's doing the same job.

I'm very against abortion. I'd never have one unless my child was going to be so ill it would be in intense pain. I don't believe other women should have abortions either. There's plenty of people out there who are desperate for a child. Why take away a life when you can just have the child adopted? In this country they'll abort a child up till 24 weeks. Most hospitals here would try and save a child that was 25 weeks along, some will even attempt at 24 weeks! So to me it is murder.


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

Banshee and CurvyEm,

I am against abortion for a variety of reasons, many of which are personal to my life. For me, the strongest reason to oppose it is because of the babies I lost. I realized that even though I wanted them, they died in utero anyway, and I also realized that babies just like them are aborted every day (I lost them between 10 weeks and 6 months gestation.) I think its sad that a baby gets to live only if its mother decides she wants it. If abortion had been legal in 1959, I wouldn't be here talking to you, because my own mother tried to have an abortion (for therapeutic reasons...she had the Rh sensitivity problem). She was told I might be born anemic or stillborn, and so she tried to get a therapeutic abortion (the only legal kind then). I'm personally thankful she couldn't get one.

I agree that women and girls should be given all the facts before they undergo an abortion. The problem is, many groups that support legal abortion don't want that because they worry if a woman or girl sees what the unborn really is, they will decide against abortion. This is why pro-life groups and some legislators have had to get laws passed to force clinics to let women/girls see the baby on the ultrasound. There were some clinics that were not letting women/girls see, even when they wanted to!


BTW Curvy, this may really shock you but...in the USA in certain states, you can get an abortion up to the last week of gestation (3rd trimester) for certain reasons. If you thought the UK was horrible with going up to 24 weeks, check this out: http://www.drtiller.com


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

Anita, it's clear you only started this thread to put feminism down. Wonder how you'd like it if someone started a thread like yours, with the same intent, only they substituted "Judaism" for "Feminism". KNowing you and your views, I know full well you aren't at all interested in hearing the "Pros" except to try to shoot them down, so why even give the pretense?


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## The Weatherman (Mar 24, 2006)

I'd have to say on the whole I support feminism, but, like any conscientious social movement, it can get out of hand when hijacked by radicals. I'm a native of one of the most liberal communities in America, and it's great 99% of the time, but sometimes it gets out of hand. I found that a lot of the most radical feminists were hypocrites in that they objectified me because I was a man ("well, since you have a vile Y chromosome, you must believe this, that, and the other thing, jerk"), all the while reviling men for objectifying women. To say that all men objectify women is just as objectifying and demeaning as a guy only seeing a gal as boobs, ass, etc. Then there are the feminists who take a sick pleasure screwing with a guy's mind, pretending to be interested, then twisting your words and accusing you of all sorts of stuff that clearly wasn't intended...

So too often, the feminism I have encountered becomes nothing more than guy-bashing.

That said, I had an eye opening experience this year when I traveled to a more rural section of America and observed how the women were treated, and how they were socialized to react to it. Most all of them, well, had never been treated humanely by a male before, and when they were (by me), they thought I must be looking for sex. I was frankly astounded that none of them had met a guy who might just be interested in talking to them and seeing what's on their mind because they might be cool people. One of them described a situation that was clearly rape, and adamantly refused to admit it. She said because the rapist was her boyfriend, it was OK. It was a sad and sobering experience for me, coming from Oak Park and seeing how different it was/is in other places.

It's tragically ironic that all the activism is happening in places that don't really need it, while the places that do are ignored.


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## Anguisette (Mar 24, 2006)

There can't be a "con" to feminism unless you don't know what feminism is. There is no mandatory rulebook. You make it your own, like republicanism or liberalism or being a member of the Open-Minded Soccer Mom Cookie Club.


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## Mini (Mar 24, 2006)

Y'know what t-shirt I've found feminists *really* hate?

"I like my women like I like my beer: Headless and filled with arsenic."

Apparently that's offensive. Who knew?


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## Jack Skellington (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Thirty-six percent of women agree with the Southern
> Baptist resolution that "wives should submit graciously
> to the leadership of their husbands,"



That's not conservative. That's crazy. We are entering Stepford Wives territory here.


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

Tina said:


> Anita, it's clear you only started this thread to put feminism down. Wonder how you'd like it if someone started a thread like yours, with the same intent, only they substituted "Judaism" for "Feminism". KNowing you and your views, I know full well you aren't at all interested in hearing the "Pros" except to try to shoot them down, so why even give the pretense?




Actually, I started this thread to keep the feminism topic from continuing to interrupt the polygamy thread.

As for subbing Judaism for feminism, feminism is not a religion. Or is it?


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

No, it's not, but it's something that is important to you and something you believe in, no? Let's not pretend here, your purpose for starting this thread is crystal clear: bashing.

And polygamy is clearly a feminist issue.


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

Tina said:


> No, it's not, but it's something that is important to you and something you believe in, no? Let's not pretend here, your purpose for starting this thread is crystal clear: bashing.
> 
> And polygamy is clearly a feminist issue.



Why is polygamy a feminist issue, any more than monogamy? Is it because of articles/interviews like this one?

http://www.patriarchywebsite.com/resources/polygamy-working-moms.htm


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## RedHead (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick....where did you get that particular statistic in regards to Southern Baptist women?

I have never, ever heard that before, and would be hard pressed to actually believe it.

I think there is a HUGE misconception of what the bible says in regards to a woman's place with her husband. It has been misconstrued, misinterrputed and just completely used out of context.

1) God commands the husband to LOVE his wife
2) God commands the wife to respect her husband..not love him
3) God commands the husband to treat his wife as he would his own body
4) God commands the husband to listen to his wife's advice and counsel; and to make NO decision without doing so
5) God commands that a man not raise his hand to his wife EVER (old testament)
6) God commands that a husband and wife submit their bodies to one another for sexual relations...one does not have the power over the other!!
7) God commands that should it be necessary to "go without" that both parties be in agreement for the length of time
8) NO where does it say for a wife to blindly obey her husband

IMHO I don't see a two headed animal living very well; I see a marriage the same way (in a sense) if there is no "Head" then how can any descion be made. I'm not saying I check every descision with my husband...I don't; but big ones, like buying a home, car; I do.

I do not cow tow to my husband...we discuss things...we decide together what should happen. I am not a Southern Baptist...but I know a lot of them; and frankly they would laugh at the thought that they are "lesser" beings than their husbands; or didn't have as much say.


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

RedHead,

I simply quoted that from an article I was linking to. I'm not a Christian, I'm a Jew, so what you're referring to is I think the new testament anyway.


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

Within polygamy women are often oppressed and told what they can and cannot do by men. I would think that would be clear, but evidently not. And it may surprise you to hear this, but every issue that affects women is a feminist issue.


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

Anita, do you know that the quote posted within that ridiculous link you have posted is made up. Go ahead and try to find it actually attributed to NOW, FROM NOW.

Below is something more accurate, and there's much more where it came from. 

_PRESS RELEASE
June 18, 2004

When: Thursday and Friday, May 20 and 21, 2004 - 9AM
Where: Court room of Judge Valdez, Mathison Court House

Once again a felon, allowed to live the illegal lifestyle of polygamy, is in court for the maltreatment of children. This particular criminal has been in Utah courts before, pleading no contest to child abuse and serving only 28 weeks in county jail.

The state of Utah continues to harbor these criminals who exploit, harm and violate the human and civil rights of the most vulnerable. Tax payers continue to fund their lifestyle while the court system is sapped again and again when they get caught doing what is known to occur.

Like cases in the past, these children are only a few of the numerous children abused by this man and many others like him every day in Utah.

We are asking the Attorney General's office, the court and other gate keepers of this state, "Will John Daniel Kingston get yet another slap on the hand for child abuse?" "When will the abuse of children, born by accident into polygamy, end?"

Tapestry Against Polygamy
National Organization For Women, Utah Chapter
CodePink
###

Tapestry Against Polygamy is a non-profit organization located in Salt Lake City, Utah that advocates against the human right violations inherent in polygamy and provides assistance to individuals leaving polygamous cults._


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

Oh yeah, sure, the Utah chapter of NOW endorses polygamy, Anita.

I will no longer even click on your links, as they are obviously not even close to being accurate, but just pull info out of their bottoms to support their agendas.

_Andrea Moore Emmett

A chilling indictment of contemporary fundamentalist polygamy, Andrea Moore Emmett's God's Brothel is the product of a decade of research and interviews. Revealing gruesome facts about bible-based polygamy through the voices of 18 women who escaped from 10 of the main religious groups and independent polygamous families, God's Brothel includes stories of rape, incest, and violencemaking this form of polygamy more akin to sexual slavery than to any quaint religious or lifestyle choice.

A prize-winning journalist and researcher for the two-hour documentary "Inside Polygamy," which aired on A&E and the BBC, Moore-Emmett is the recipient of five Utah Excellence in Journalism awards from the Society of Professional Journalists, including a 1st place Don Baker Investigative Reporting Award and a Leading Changes Award from the Utah Professional Chapter of Women in Communications. *Moore Emmett also serves as President of the Utah Chapter of the National Organization for Women (NOW)*. _


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 24, 2006)

This is how I feel about feminism, or rather, bashing feminism:







Yep. It's really easy to bash feminism from the place of having a VOICE to be able to do that. But what if the women (and men!) who came before us hadn't worked so hard to give us that voice?


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## RedHead (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> RedHead,
> 
> I simply quoted that from an article I was linking to. I'm not a Christian, I'm a Jew, so what you're referring to is I think the new testament anyway.




No, most of it is in the Old Testament as well; it's just reiterated in the new.

GN 2:18-24
GN 2:21-23
GN 2:24

DT 24:5
PRV 5:18-20
PRV 18:22
SONG 2:1
SONG 4:1-7
SONG 2:16
SONG 4:15
SONG 5:2-7
SONG 5:16
SONG 7:10-13

Check it out...I only referenced the Old Testament Scripture.


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## mossystate (Mar 24, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> This is how I feel about feminism, or rather, bashing feminism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
very succinct

'radical' has always had it's place at the table, when folks who no longer want to be told who they are and what they are allowed to do...start rumbling and finding a voice

I won't even get into the whole abortion debate..well..other than to say..many people want to drag out the boogeyman/woman...abortions while you are on the bed...legs splayed..ready to give birth

horror stories are great propaganda


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## RedHead (Mar 24, 2006)

Vickie....that is awesome!!


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## Jane (Mar 24, 2006)

Amen, Vickie!!!!!!!!

However, I don't think there's any doubt I am a feminist, but probably not as much as I am a humanist, having respect for both men and women.

One of the men I respect most in my life has taken the last two years to care for his child. Mom is making the living, he is enjoying his daughter's childhood before she starts going to school full time. Mom took the first four and stayed home. They are raising her to be a strong, independent woman.


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

Tina said:


> Within polygamy women are often oppressed and told what they can and cannot do by men. I would think that would be clear, but evidently not. And it may surprise you to hear this, but every issue that affects women is a feminist issue.



Within many MONOGAMOUS marriages, women are ALSO oppressed. I guess you've never known any Moonies, Hare Krsna's, extreme fundie Christians, etc? Why target ONLY polygamy, as if polygamy IN AND OF ITSELF is the evil? ITS NOT. Not anymore than monogamy is evil, simply because some off the wall cults practice that too.


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## Jane (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Within many MONOGAMOUS marriages, women are ALSO oppressed. I guess you've never known any Moonies, Hare Krsna's, extreme fundie Christians, etc? Why target ONLY polygamy, as if polygamy IN AND OF ITSELF is the evil? ITS NOT. Not anymore than monogamy is evil, simply because some off the wall cults practice that too.


So, are you in a multi partner relationship, or does it just sound good to you?


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## FitChick (Mar 24, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> This is how I feel about feminism, or rather, bashing feminism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hm, let's see...I don't wear pants, I don't vote, I don't drive, my father and mother taught me to read and write at home before kindergarten...what exactly has feminism done FOR ME PERSONALLY that I did not do ON MY OWN without their help? I don't recall ever asking the feminist movement once for help to do ANY of the things I wanted to do in my life. When they tried to deny me the right to take woodshop in junior high instead of home ec, I didn't cry to feminists, I ask my Dad to help, and he did. He got me switched to woodshop, where I wanted to be because I liked it (I used to do projects with my Dad in his workshop.)

When I got hired as the first female law enforcement officer for a local university in the 1980s, did I ask feminism to help me? Nope. I was picked on and teased as the first and (then) only female, but I stuck it out and did my job. I also scored at the top of my class at the police acedemy (where we had to go for firearms training.) Feminism didn't help me, I did it MYSELF, through HARD WORK and DETERMINATION.

There have ALWAYS been women who accomplished great things, long before feminism was there to claim credit.

To name just a few strong women who did what they wanted to, without the help of feminism (and some of these women were actually anti-feminist):

Phyllis Schlafly, Esq.
Joan of Arc
Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
Dr Martha Hughes Cannon, MD
Dr Elizabeth Blackwell, MD
Dr Marie Nyswander, MD


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Within many MONOGAMOUS marriages, women are ALSO oppressed. I guess you've never known any Moonies, Hare Krsna's, extreme fundie Christians, etc? Why target ONLY polygamy, as if polygamy IN AND OF ITSELF is the evil? ITS NOT. Not anymore than monogamy is evil, simply because some off the wall cults practice that too.



See now, that is where you are delving into red herring and straw man arguments again. No one said women were not oppressed in monogomous relationships. One would have to have lived in a cave to think that. And I have investigated many religions, AND even more fundies -- particularly the women who were able to finally get the hell out. Their tales are harrowing.

Polygamy as practiced by these supposed moral people is dysfunctional, destructive and illegal. I target polygamy because it is a subject YOU brought up. Hello!!?

Joan of Arc? LOL You're really reaching there. Oh, and did Mary, mother of Jesus not practice feminism, too?


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## Jes (Mar 24, 2006)

Not only am I not a feminist, but I hope they repeal all them pesky civil rights laws and protections we got, now. Bring back the old days!

Look, FitChick--it's great your parents did for you what you feel makes you equal to anyone else in this world. A whole bunch of other people (women, in this case) didn't get that kind of treatment. Look at the issue of civil rights. Some things DO need to be codified in law. Or at least have a social movement related to awareness behind them. You have choices, and you had good parents. But this is about more than just you.


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## RedHead (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Hm, let's see...I don't wear pants, I don't vote, I don't drive, my father and mother taught me to read and write at home before kindergarten...what exactly has feminism done FOR ME PERSONALLY that I did not do ON MY OWN without their help? I don't recall ever asking the feminist movement once for help to do ANY of the things I wanted to do in my life. When they tried to deny me the right to take woodshop in junior high instead of home ec, I didn't cry to feminists, I ask my Dad to help, and he did. He got me switched to woodshop, where I wanted to be because I liked it (I used to do projects with my Dad in his workshop.)
> 
> When I got hired as the first female law enforcement officer for a local university in the 1980s, did I ask feminism to help me? Nope. I was picked on and teased as the first and (then) only female, but I stuck it out and did my job. I also scored at the top of my class at the police acedemy (where we had to go for firearms training.) Feminism didn't help me, I did it MYSELF, through HARD WORK and DETERMINATION.
> 
> ...



Anita....let's clarify a few things.

1) You were a law enforcement officer and you NEVER wore pants?? I know several police officers and IT IS REQUIRED THAT THEY WEAR PANTS!
2)You don't vote....BUT THAT IS A CHOICE THAT THROUGH THE HARD WORK of other women has allowed you that CHOICE...you get to say "I don't want to vote...not I cannot vote"
3)What does firearms training have to do with feminism? Make a point and stick with it please! 
4)Feminism isn't about DOING THINGS FOR YOU...it is about paving the way should you choose to follow a path. NO ONE DOES THINGS FOR YOU...YOU DO IT FOR YOURSELF
5)Driving is a priviledge for both men and women....so you choose not to; what does that have to do with being a female?
6)Your statement about that you didn't cry to "feminists" but to your dad about woodshop....who do you think fought for the rights of females to get the same education as males?? I don't think it was your dad!
7)Almost forgot....I too work in a field where I am the only woman in a large worldwide corporation in my position. I owe thanks to women before me that have changed men/women's mind that allow the thinking THAT WOMEN CAN DO (AND DO) JUST ABOUT ANYTHING A MAN CAN DO....sorry there are some things I just can't (like get an erection  )

If you are going to make an argument; do so with facts and make an actual point. You are just lambasting Feminism with the same brush some people do with people of different skin colors!

Just out of curiousity; were you born Jew or did you convert? If so; was your lineage through the male or female side of your family?


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## RedHead (Mar 24, 2006)

Oh...and I see you didn't even acknowledge the old testament scripture I laid out for you about marriage and the equality of women!

By any chance did you ever take debate?


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## ripley (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Why is polygamy a feminist issue, any more than monogamy? Is it because of articles/interviews like this one?
> 
> http://www.patriarchywebsite.com/resources/polygamy-working-moms.htm






FitChick said:


> Actually, I started this thread to keep the feminism topic from continuing to interrupt the polygamy thread.




You got your peanut butter in my chocolate.


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I decided to take the discussion to a new thread, since its currently in the polygamy thread.
> 
> Here is an article that might provide some fodder for discussion; I think the author's observations are interesting..
> 
> http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2535.html



I'll apporach this on a basic level: I had a girlfriend many years ago who refused to wash dishes, wash my clothes when she was doing laundry or help me iron my clothes. NOW before some women get angry, I was the one who: took out the trash, moved HER car on alternate parking nights, met her at the subway if she worked late (we lived in a bad neighborhood in B'lyn) and walked her home, paid for most dinners and nights out, fixed her car and did yard work at her elderly parent's home on visits (my days OFF). I never got mad or resentful EXCEPT when she could have helped me doing some household chores. She felt it was sterotypical for her to be domestic help. BUT it wasn't a problem for me to be bodyguard, mechanic, valet parking attendant, landscaper, ox...


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## Augustcandy (Mar 24, 2006)

JerseyBigBoy said:


> I'll apporach this on a basic level: I had a girlfriend many years ago who refused to wash dishes, wash my clothes when she was doing laundry or help me iron my clothes. NOW before some women get angry, I was the one who: took out the trash, moved HER car on alternate parking nights, met her at the subway if she worked late (we lived in a bad neighborhood in B'lyn) and walked her home, paid for most dinners and nights out, fixed her car and did yard work at her elderly parent's home on visits (my days OFF). I never got mad or resentful EXCEPT when she could have helped me doing some household chores. She felt it was sterotypical for her to be domestic help. BUT it wasn't a problem for me to be bodyguard, mechanic, valet parking attendant, landscaper, ox...



LOL sounds to me like she was LAZY! and she tried to cover it up with those "beneath me contradictions". Femenism is about choice, to work and get equal pay or to stay home and help with the chores/take care of children. Evryone women should have a choice. And your girlfriend was clearly choosing to take advantage of you. I hope you gave her the boot. Evryone deserves to have somone who will pull there weight.


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## Augustcandy (Mar 24, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> This is how I feel about feminism, or rather, bashing feminism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Beautiful music to my ears!


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 24, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Hm, let's see...I don't wear pants, I don't vote, I don't drive, my father and mother taught me to read and write at home before kindergarten...what exactly has feminism done FOR ME PERSONALLY that I did not do ON MY OWN without their help? I don't recall ever asking the feminist movement once for help to do ANY of the things I wanted to do in my life. When they tried to deny me the right to take woodshop in junior high instead of home ec, I didn't cry to feminists, I ask my Dad to help, and he did. He got me switched to woodshop, where I wanted to be because I liked it (I used to do projects with my Dad in his workshop.)



Well, you know, it's all about you, isn't it? Even though you feel feminism hasn't touched you personally -- because you took wood shop? Big friggin' deal -- doesn't mean it hasn't. It has helped create an environment that allows women a voice. Without that environment our voice -- *your* voice, in fact -- would be silenced. Margaret Sanger ring a bell? Even if she didn't use the word, she certainly fits the bill.

And you don't VOTE??? What the HELL??? 



> When I got hired as the first female law enforcement officer for a local university in the 1980s, did I ask feminism to help me? Nope. I was picked on and teased as the first and (then) only female, but I stuck it out and did my job. I also scored at the top of my class at the police acedemy (where we had to go for firearms training.) Feminism didn't help me, I did it MYSELF, through HARD WORK and DETERMINATION.



You might not have asked Gloria Steinem for a leg up but the women who came before you who paved the way for such a thing to happen should get some of the credit. It's not as though our culture has gone from a "women stay at home and raise the kids or stick with traditionally female roles" to "women have choices and can be whatever they want to be" in a vacuum. It didn't happen because of people like Phyllis Shitfly; it happened in SPITE of women like her. Without the women before you, Anita, all your hard work and determination would have meant exactly Jack Squat. How do I know this? Because there were women who came before you, who worked harder, were more determined, and were not so lucky as you. Women beaten down, physically and emotionally because they wanted the same chances as men. And it's on their backs that we have the options we have. So don't think for a moment that your accomplishment, while impressive, happened entirely because of YOU. Every woman that came before you who rattled trees, rocked boats and a million other silly cliches helped make that happen, just as the size acceptance mavens who have come before us have helped make things a little better for ALL fat people. 



> There have ALWAYS been women who accomplished great things, long before feminism was there to claim credit.



No one is saying feminism is responsible for All Things Fair, Beautiful and Wonderful. However it's a name we put to the very same movements which happened hundreds of years before. Queen Boudiccea? Kicked ASS against invaders, at a time when women warriors were unheard of and much of the men were in hiding, dead, or running for their lives. Eleanor of Aquitaine? Rich heiress, marrried who she wanted to, assured the succession of her sons to the royal line of England. I think she would have been proud to call herself a feminist. Queen Elizabeth I? (And for that matter, her elder sister Mary, even though what she did was deplorable) They ran England when they were told it couldn't be done; Elizabeth, in fact, brought England into a Golden Age, the likes of which hasn't been seen since. 

Now yes, you're right, they didn't have the term feminism, but all of these women wrested control of their destiny from the men who would have controlled their lives. To me, thisis what makes up the gooey center of feminism -- women having the same options as men to follow their bliss. What's not to like about that? Why is that so awful? So threatening? So worthy of disdain? As a mother of two teenage daughters I thank my lucky stars that my daughters can get birth control, that abortion is (so far) legal, that if they want to be astronauts, doctors, professors, or enter politics, they can. Yes, ultimately it will be their determination that drives their dreams. But without the environment that feminism has helped cultivate, their dreams would be much harder -- if not impossible -- to attain.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 24, 2006)

JerseyBigBoy said:


> I'll apporach this on a basic level: I had a girlfriend many years ago who refused to wash dishes, wash my clothes when she was doing laundry or help me iron my clothes. NOW before some women get angry, I was the one who: took out the trash, moved HER car on alternate parking nights, met her at the subway if she worked late (we lived in a bad neighborhood in B'lyn) and walked her home, paid for most dinners and nights out, fixed her car and did yard work at her elderly parent's home on visits (my days OFF). I never got mad or resentful EXCEPT when she could have helped me doing some household chores. She felt it was sterotypical for her to be domestic help. BUT it wasn't a problem for me to be bodyguard, mechanic, valet parking attendant, landscaper, ox...



Yep, newsflash: Women can be assholes too.


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## Tina (Mar 24, 2006)

Extremely well-said, Vickie.



FitChick said:


> To name just a few strong women who did what they wanted to, without the help of feminism (and some of these women were actually anti-feminist):
> 
> Phyllis Schlafly, Esq.
> Joan of Arc
> ...



Phyllis Schafly you can have. I wouldn't claim her if you paid me. You can have Anita Bryant, too.

Joan of Arc -- what, did you just throw that in there for the hell of it? See, Joan, given that her day and age was smack dab in the middle of the women's sufferage movement, denounced feminism because... well, just because. Non sequitur much?

Certainly not every strong woman claims to be a feminist, and that's okay. But since you seem to like quotes, and you mention Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon, obviously a remarkable woman and someone you seem to think would support your views, why not take a gander at this, Anita:



> *Martha Hughes Cannon*
> Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon, twenty-seven-year-old resident physician at Deseret Hospital in Salt Lake City and later the first female state senator in the United States, became the third plural wife of fifty-year-old Angus Cannon, Salt Lake City stake president and one of Deseret Hospital's directors. She described her polygamous marriage as "a few stolen interviews thoroughly tinctured with the dread of discovery." In a 3 February 1888 letter to her husband while she was in Europe, she wrote that the trials of polygamy would be unendurable without "a thorough knowledge from God, that the principle for which we are battling and striving to maintain in purity upon the earth is ordained by Him, and that we are chosen instruments in His hands to engage in so great a calling." She added that "even with this assurance grounded in one's heart, we do not escape trials and temptations, grievious at times in their nature."
> 
> Martha was acquainted with several monogamous families and yearned for an exclusive relationship. She described such a marriage as "a joy and comfort to witness, where the wife and Mother is proud and happy in the devotion of a noble husband, while he in turn is equally contented and happy in the possession of the partner he has chosen for life; while at home in each other's association is where their greatest joys are centered." "Oh for a home!" she lamented in a 30 December 1891 letter to Angus: "A husband of my own because he is my own. A father for my children whom they know by association. And all the little auxiliaries that make life worth living. Will they ever be enjoyed by this storm-tossed exile. Or must life thus drift on and one more victim swell the ranks of the great unsatisfied!"
> ...



Sounds like a woman happy with her marital situation, at a time when polygamy was imposed upon women, no? Jolly fun, eh? This was a strong woman who, it seems obvious, would have gladly marched hand in hand with the women who fought for the very rights you spit on, Anita. Yes, she's definitely on *your side*.


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## SparklingBBW (Mar 25, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Hm, let's see...I don't wear pants, I don't vote, I don't drive, my father and mother taught me to read and write at home before kindergarten...what exactly has feminism done FOR ME PERSONALLY that I did not do ON MY OWN without their help? I don't recall ever asking the feminist movement once for help to do ANY of the things I wanted to do in my life. When they tried to deny me the right to take woodshop in junior high instead of home ec, I didn't cry to feminists, I ask my Dad to help, and he did. He got me switched to woodshop, where I wanted to be because I liked it (I used to do projects with my Dad in his workshop.)
> 
> When I got hired as the first female law enforcement officer for a local university in the 1980s, did I ask feminism to help me? Nope. I was picked on and teased as the first and (then) only female, but I stuck it out and did my job. I also scored at the top of my class at the police acedemy (where we had to go for firearms training.) Feminism didn't help me, I did it MYSELF, through HARD WORK and DETERMINATION.
> 
> ...




To say that you have not benefitted from "feminism" is a flat-out falsehood. To read this post and bear witness to your complete and utter lack of respect for the women and men who have come before you makes me physically ill. Do you even realize how many women have been beaten, tortured, raped, and even died because they wanted the world to be a place where men and women had equal rights? 

Do you even understand that your mear ability to express your opinion here is one of the basic rights that so-called feminists have been fighting for? The fact that you can read and write (I don't care if it was your parents who schooled you, the idea that a girl child is worthy enough to take time and money to educate is a relatively new idea), the fact that you can earn your own money or have a bank account, the fact that you can own your computer or any property, the fact that you are not the property of your husband, the fact that marrying your husband was your choice. All of these rights are yours today because someone else fought for you and all of the women who were to come after them. As an aside, with the exception of Joan of Arc, all those women were able to be educated and have a voice and hold positions of power because of feminism. You would do well to remember that too. 

Finally, I will say this: I certainly do not like what you've said here today, but like Voltaire, I do gladly and whole-heartedly defend your right as a woman, as a human being, to express your feelings, opinions, and thoughts about any and all subjects. 

Gena


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## BBW Betty (Mar 25, 2006)

True feminism, IMO, empowers both men and women, who at one time were stuck in gender-defined roles. I know a family where the wife has the full-time job, and the husband has been doing a great job raising their two daughters. It's fantastic that both men and women can have this choice now.

I agree with what many of you have posted, that it did need legislative help to establish the equality. It's important that we have the right to vote, or to try to qualify for the jobs of our choice. (I'm using rather broad statements here, b/c there are too many excellent things said up to now to respond to every one.)

I will disagree with some on the abortion issue. To me, it is about that pesky little phrase from the Declaration of Independence about "an unalienable right to LIFE, liberty, and pursuit of happiness." Note that Life comes first, and you should not be able to take someone's life b/c they are inconvenient to your happiness. In most situations, a pregancy could have been avoided by use of birth control, or even self-control. Killing a baby is no way to establish rights.

And on a tangent, I particularly disagree with organizations that try to push for teenagers having access to abortion without parental notification or consent. For heaven's sake, you can't give a kid Tylenol w/o notification, but a life-changing, dangerous procedure should be promoted? I don't think so.

OK, I'll get off my soap box here. Sorry for the rant. It's just one of the few topics that really get to me.


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## MisticalMisty (Mar 25, 2006)

Not trying to hijack..but I have a question.

How many women that believe themselves a feminist are pro life and how many are pro choice?

Just kinda curious.


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 25, 2006)

Augustcandy said:


> LOL sounds to me like she was LAZY! and she tried to cover it up with those "beneath me contradictions". Femenism is about choice, to work and get equal pay or to stay home and help with the chores/take care of children. Evryone women should have a choice. And your girlfriend was clearly choosing to take advantage of you. I hope you gave her the boot. Evryone deserves to have somone who will pull there weight.



Oh, she got the boot! You better believe that!

(um, 8 years later... [what was i thinking?])


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 25, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> Yep, newsflash: Women can be assholes too.



Yeah, you know I never minded being a "protecter" to her in the big, mean city and I was for doing the heavy lifting, but MAN did we fight when it came to her ironing my clothes. I tried and I was/am awful at it. I am so bad that I buy turtlenecks, sweaters, and wrinkle-free slacks for work. That was pretty much it. She would tidy the place, where I moved furniture and mopped the floors, scoured the bathroom (I hate the idea of germs. Disorder or an untidy desk with papers is no problem, but filth drives me nuts) but we had to make deals for her to do the "woman's work".

You know, I am glad we're no together anymore. 8 effing years!


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## BBW Betty (Mar 25, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> Not trying to hijack..but I have a question.
> 
> How many women that believe themselves a feminist are pro life and how many are pro choice?
> 
> Just kinda curious.



Well, I'd have to say my views are pretty obvious, but for the record, I am pro-life, and all for women having equal rights economically, socially, legally, etc. So I guess you could call me a feminist. 

Unfortunately, I do think SOME women have taken the word to mean it's okay to become as bad as, or worse, than some men have been, instead of everyone learning to treat others with the respect due another human being. It should never be about domination, or being in charge, but about being the best person you can be, using whatever abilities God gave you.


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## mossystate (Mar 25, 2006)

JerseyBigBoy said:


> Yeah, you know I never minded being a "protecter" to her in the big, mean city and I was for doing the heavy lifting, but MAN did we fight when it came to her ironing my clothes. I tried and I was/am awful at it. I am so bad that I buy turtlenecks, sweaters, and wrinkle-free slacks for work. That was pretty much it. She would tidy the place, where I moved furniture and mopped the floors, scoured the bathroom (I hate the idea of germs. Disorder or an untidy desk with papers is no problem, but filth drives me nuts) but we had to make deals for her to do the "woman's work".
> 
> You know, I am glad we're no together anymore. 8 effing years!


Erm..so she DID tidy the place, mop the floors and scour the bathroom?So you biggest issue was doing your laundry and ironing?Maybe I am a little confused. 
One thing I have always hated to hear, is men who say they mow the lawn and change the oil in the car..etc, but the little lady should do the cooking, cleaning, childrearing(only of course if one has them), shopping, noticing when something is needed for a member of the family..etc..etc.Most of that is done on a daily basis.So, I guess it all depends on just how much 'manly' work one is doing. 

Wait, I read your post one more time..so you did the bathroom scouring..gotcha...ok..so it was mostly an ironing issue you had?*L*I know battles get pretty heated when people are sometimes using chores to fight over what is many times a bigger issue.Good that you are out of there.doesn't sound like either of you were going to do ok with the other.


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## Jes (Mar 26, 2006)

Misty: Feminist: check. Actively pro-choice: check.


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## missaf (Mar 26, 2006)

If your biggest issue with your wife is she doesn't iron your clothes, buy yourself clothes that don't need ironed. Shove them in teh dryer for 10 mintues and BAM-- DONE!


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> Erm..so she DID tidy the place, mop the floors and scour the bathroom?So you biggest issue was doing your laundry and ironing?Maybe I am a little confused.
> One thing I have always hated to hear, is men who say they mow the lawn and change the oil in the car..etc, but the little lady should do the cooking, cleaning, childrearing(only of course if one has them), shopping, noticing when something is needed for a member of the family..etc..etc.Most of that is done on a daily basis.So, I guess it all depends on just how much 'manly' work one is doing.
> 
> Wait, I read your post one more time..so you did the bathroom scouring..gotcha...ok..so it was mostly an ironing issue you had?*L*I know battles get pretty heated when people are sometimes using chores to fight over what is many times a bigger issue.Good that you are out of there.doesn't sound like either of you were going to do ok with the other.



You're right. But, for me, this post was about feminism and how gender plays out in the world--or at least in America. I can be the sterotypical, Robert Mitchum type 24-7, but she can't be June Cleaver for 15 minutes?


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## Jes (Mar 26, 2006)

JerseyBigBoy said:


> You're right. But, for me, this post was about feminism and how gender plays out in the world--or at least in America. I can be the sterotypical, Robert Mitchum type 24-7, but she can't be June Cleaver for 15 minutes?


Maybe it was your constant attempts to give her a pearl necklace to which she was objecting, Jersey!


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## djewell (Mar 26, 2006)

Joan of Arc was not smack-dab in the middle of the women's suffrage movement. In fact, at that time, most men could not vote either. They were like, "Vote, what is this 'vote?'"

I would appreciate it if people would tell me what this "old testemant" nonsense is. I've heard of the Jewish scriptures, but never this "Old Testament." What, was it sometime replaced by something?

Here is my take on feminism:
Proverbs 31:10-31
(From the Artscoll Tanach, all rights reserved)
"An accomplished woman who can find? Far beyond pearls is her value.
Her husband's heart relies on her, and he shall lack no fortune.
She bestows goodness upon him, never evil, all the days of her life.
She seeks wool and flax and her hands work willingly.
She is like a merchant's ships; from afar she brings her sustenance.
She arises while it is yet night,
and gives food to her household and a portion to her maidens.
She envisions a field and buys it.
from the fruit of her handiwork she plants a vineyard.
She discerns that her enterprise is good; her lamp is not snuffed out by the night.
She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
and her palms support the spindle.
She spreads out her palm to the poor, and extends her hands to the destitute.
She fears not snow for her household,
for all her household is clothed in scarlet wool.
She made for herself luxurious bedspreads;
linen and purple wool are her clothing.
Her husband is distinctive in the councis,
when he sits with the elders of the land.
She makes a cloak and sells it, and delivers a belt to the peddler.
Strength and majesty are her raiment, and she joyfully awaits the last day.
She opens her mouth with wisdom,
and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
She anticipates the ways of her household.
and does not eat the bread of lazineess.
Her children have risen and praised her; her husband, and he extolled her.
'Many women have amassed achievement, but you have surpassed them all.'
Grace is false, and beauty vain;
a woman who fears G-d, she should be praised.
Give her the fruits of her hands;
and let her be praised in the gates by her very own deeds."

The above is sung on Friday nights by Jewish men to their wives. Its called "aishes chayil," after the first two words of the text. You can't tell by the translation, but the verses all start with the letters of the Jewish alphabet in sequence. This is a common Hebrew poetic device.

Note that it says HER household. A woman, in Jewish tradition, is in charge of the family. Judaism is primarily a home-based religion, and from this you can see that the woman plays perhaps even more important of a role than the man.

Also note that a valorous woman "envisions a field and buys it." The Rabbis of the Talmud tell us that a woman can acquire and own property.

There is a mitzvah (commandment) that men must please their wives when they have sex with them.


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 26, 2006)

Jes said:


> Maybe it was your constant attempts to give her a pearl necklace to which she was objecting, Jersey!



you took that to a level which I hoped to fly above.

I always liked June Cleaver. She was ok looking, certainly appropriate for television, but her expressions, especially dealing with Eddie Haskell are hilarious. Wait! I have a post to make on the TV shows you're embarrassed to watch....


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

Jersey....why; I like it when we fly below the "top cover" so to speak.

Djewell....Old testament was actaully in a direct reference to Anita (FitChick) statement; that all the things I stated about marriage and women were only "New Testament" i.e.; after Jesus came and was proclaimed messiah...as opposed to the Old Testament which is designated to be prior to the Messiah's return. Only differentiating between the two. The Old Testament is just as relevant as the New Testament!


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## djewell (Mar 26, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Jersey....why; I like it when we fly below the "top cover" so to speak.
> 
> Djewell....Old testament was actaully in a direct reference to Anita (FitChick) statement; that all the things I stated about marriage and women were only "New Testament" i.e.; after Jesus came and was proclaimed messiah...as opposed to the Old Testament which is designated to be prior to the Messiah's return. Only differentiating between the two. The Old Testament is just as relevant as the New Testament!



Yeah but can we say "hebrew scriptures" or something like that? It's weird but I always think of blood libels when someone says "new testement"


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

djewell said:


> Yeah but can we say "hebrew scriptures" or something like that? It's weird but I always think of blood libels when someone says "new testement"



Even the new is in Hebrew in some cases...but if it makes it more comfortable for you; I can refer to the Hebrew Text and the Newer Text. Does that work for you?


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## djewell (Mar 26, 2006)

Thanks. 

Conservatives will go nuts over this!


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

Jane said:


> So, are you in a multi partner relationship, or does it just sound good to you?



I'm not a polygamist nor could I be for various reasons. But I respect the right of those for whom it does work, to do it. I support the decrminalization of polygamy.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Anita....let's clarify a few things.
> 
> 1) You were a law enforcement officer and you NEVER wore pants?? I know several police officers and IT IS REQUIRED THAT THEY WEAR PANTS!
> 2)You don't vote....BUT THAT IS A CHOICE THAT THROUGH THE HARD WORK of other women has allowed you that CHOICE...you get to say "I don't want to vote...not I cannot vote"
> ...




As for the wearing pants: that was YEARS ago. Just because I don't wear them NOW doesn't mean I NEVER did.

I was born Jewish, why do you ask? My mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism (during WW2), my father was born Jewish.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

djewell said:


> Yeah but can we say "hebrew scriptures" or something like that? It's weird but I always think of blood libels when someone says "new testement"



I may have used the term "new testament" because I recognized I am dealing here primarily with people of Christian backgrounds, and so that's a term that would be familiar to them. It amazes to realize (as I still do) that many from nonJewish backgrounds often don't understand the differences between our Tanakh and their Bible.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

djewell said:


> Joan of Arc was not smack-dab in the middle of the women's suffrage movement. In fact, at that time, most men could not vote either. They were like, "Vote, what is this 'vote?'"



As Foghorn Leghorn would say: "It was a joke, son."


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I may have used the term "new testament" because I recognized I am dealing here primarily with people of Christian backgrounds, and so that's a term that would be familiar to them. It amazes to realize (as I still do) that many from nonJewish backgrounds often don't understand the differences between our Tanakh and their Bible.



Do you understand the differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon -- their purpose, etc.? Why would people understand that unless they'd studied it or are even interested in the differences? My point here is that you're assuming people *should* understand those differences. Many people aren't interested in religion of any sort.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> A recent NBC poll said Rachel Alexander is full of shit, according to every white woman between 20 and 35.
> 
> I'm going to stop there, because I could go on and on. Basically, this woman is promoting her own agenda that every woman should have babies and get married. To boot, she's a crappy writer, and an even worse persuasive writer. There are intelligent anti-feminists out there, but she isn't one of them.


It cracks me up that this drivel was on a web site called "The Intelligent Conservative". Nothing there involved any intellect whatsoever - everything seems to be a re-hash of right-wing talking points.

Conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh have been attacking feminists and Feminism for years - guess they can't handle strong, accomplished women.

Personally, I think Raclel Alaxander should pack it in as a columnist. Her hate-filled spew does nothing to advance society; in fact, it only serves to make things worse.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I am against abortion for a variety of reasons....


Which ias your right. But other women also have the right to make that choice for themselves. That's what the "pro-choice" position means - not only the choice TO have an abortion, but the choice NOT TO.

Personally, I don't want the government making that kind of choice for anyone.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

I agree completely.


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> As for the wearing pants: that was YEARS ago. Just because I don't wear them NOW doesn't mean I NEVER did.
> 
> I was born Jewish, why do you ask? My mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism (during WW2), my father was born Jewish.



What is the bloodline; sorry I should have been more specific. If your father is Jewish...but your mother only converted; you too are only a convert to Judism; the scriptures state that only the mothers blood carries the line for the Jews.

I am Jewish by birth; I do not practice the faith; but BY birth I am Jewish.

So the point of all this....often (not always) women will seek out an extreme religious sect in order to hide from some kind of pain in their lives, i.e.; sexual abuse, spousal abuse, rape. They feel that somehow if "their" choices are taken away and a MAN makes them all; they are no longer responsible and then nothing bad can happen again.

I say this from experience as a counsler; I've seen this behaviour over, and over again. These women are smart, intelligent, funny; they just reached their limit of pain and took the only path they saw open.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

RedHead said:


> What is the bloodline; sorry I should have been more specific. If your father is Jewish...but your mother only converted; you too are only a convert to Judism; the scriptures state that only the mothers blood carries the line for the Jews.
> 
> I am Jewish by birth; I do not practice the faith; but BY birth I am Jewish.
> 
> ...




Its a shame you are evidently ignorant of what Judaism actually teaches, because you will mislead many people.

Let me educate you on Jewish LAW: if a person is BORN of a woman who converted to Orthodox Judaism THEYA RE A BORN JEW. All your talk about "bloodlines" sound so Nazilike. Judaism is not a race, it is a religio-nation. The only people who are regarded as converts are those who CONVERTED to the religion. ANY children a woman has AFTER her conversion are regarded as BORN Jews. Incidentally I was RAISED as an Orthodox Jew, since both my parents were Orthodox Jews prior to my birth. Too often, those who were born Jews of two parents who were born Jewish, adopt a terrible racism toward those who are either half-Jewish or who have one parent that was a convert to Judaism. Such Jews would have dismissed Avraham Avinu (the first Jew AND a convert), not to mention Ruth (another convert to Judaism and a grandmother of King David.) Such Jewish racism stems from ignorance of what the Jewish religion teaches.

Did you also know that Judaism teaches that once a person (in this case, my mother) converts to Judaism IT IS AN AVEIRA (SIN) to remind them of their past or to denigrate them or their children? Remember: ONLY HITLER cared about so-called "Jewish bloodlines". JUDAISM does not.

Read and learn: education is a good thing!

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

And here is another good link:

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_conversion_children.htm

Note this quote from the above link:

Question

I am a single mother who wants to covert to Judaism. Do my children need to convert as well? Please explain the best way to handle this.

Answer

Any children born to you before you converted will have to be converted themselves. *After you have converted, any future children born to you will be born Jews.*


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Its a shame you are evidently ignorant of what Judaism actually teaches, because you will mislead many people.
> 
> Let me educate you on Jewish LAW: if a person is BORN of a woman who converted to Orthodox Judaism THEYA RE A BORN JEW. All your talk about "bloodlines" sound so Nazilike. Judaism is not a race, it is a religio-nation. The only people who are regarded as converts are those who CONVERTED to the religion. ANY children a woman has AFTER her conversion are regarded as BORN Jews. Incidentally I was RAISED as an Orthodox Jew, since both my parents were Orthodox Jews prior to my birth. Too often, those who were born Jews of two parents who were born Jewish, adopt a terrible racism toward those who are either half-Jewish or who have one parent that was a convert to Judaism. Such Jews would have dismissed Avraham Avinu (the first Jew AND a convert), not to mention Ruth (another convert to Judaism and a grandmother of King David.) Such Jewish racism stems from ignorance of what the Jewish religion teaches.
> 
> ...



Well you answered at least part of the post; I guess I should be grateful for that!

But we will have to disagree:
*"First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement! The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that children's children also comes into question. 

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. The more modern movements do not always follow the procedures required by the more traditional movements, thereby invalidating the conversion. In addition, Orthodoxy does not accept the authority of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis to perform conversions, and the Conservative movement has debated whether to accept the authority of Reform rabbis. *"

Since my experience has only been with non-reformist Jews...I have the "take" that unless your mother was born of the tribe of Abraham...you are not truly one of "G*d's Chosen" (not that you are not loved)

As for calling me a NAZI....Anita; throw out the name games okay! I am not in anyway prejudice. That kind of name calling is inappropriate and smacks of a desperate attempt to take the pressure off of yourself, because you have nothing better to say.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

RedHead, I quoted you what Jewish law says. I linked to sites that confirm that. I did not say you are a nazi but you evdiently have adopted the nazi belief that Judaism is a matter of RACE. Its NOT.

Its really sad because my mother and many converts like her went through and still go through grief at the hands of Jewishly-ignorant "born Jews" who somehow see themselves as superior to converts, when I have always seen converts as being more educated Jewishly. They HAVE to be in order to convert. Its a shame...other religions often treat converts to their faith very well. Because of ignorant Jews (NOT religious ones), converts are often made to feel like lepers. An Orthodox rabbi once told me its because many born Jews feel insecure due to their own lack of education regarding Judaism, and when they meet converts who know more than they do, it makes them feel awkward, and so they choose to claim they are somehow "more Jewish" by virtue of birth....as if Judaism were a race as Hitler believed.

But frankly, getting back to the original intent of the discussions, what does this have to do with it anyway? Whether a Jew is a Jew by birth, conversion or whatever, it makes no difference. Why would you have even brought it up to ask?


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm not Jewish, and I really don't claim to know anything about Judaism, but isn't it kind of ... both a religion and a race? Aren't there people who are born Jewish, who come from long lines of Jews (like the Ashkenazi?) and then aren't there some who convert? 

Or am I totally misunderstanding the whole thing.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> I'm not Jewish, and I really don't claim to know anything about Judaism, but isn't it kind of ... both a religion and a race? Aren't there people who are born Jewish, who come from long lines of Jews (like the Ashkenazi?) and then aren't there some who convert?
> 
> Or am I totally misunderstanding the whole thing.



You are almost exactly right. BTW Ashkenazi are Jews from Eastern and Western Europe. Sephardim are Jews from Spain, Italy, Arab countries, Turkey,Middle East, etc.

Some of the most famous Jews were converts. Ruth in the Bible, is the grandmother of King David and was a convert. Abraham, the first Jew and his wife Sarah, were converts. Rabbi Akiva, a very famous rabbinic sage of the first century who was martyred by the Romans, was a convert. Obadiah, who wrote one of the shortest books in the Jewish Bible, was a convert. Yitro (Jethro), the father in law of Moses, was a convert. Its a very long list.


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

Originally Posted by RedHead
Anita....let's clarify a few things.

1) You were a law enforcement officer and you NEVER wore pants?? I know several police officers and IT IS REQUIRED THAT THEY WEAR PANTS!
2)You don't vote....BUT THAT IS A CHOICE THAT THROUGH THE HARD WORK of other women has allowed you that CHOICE...you get to say "I don't want to vote...not I cannot vote"
3)What does firearms training have to do with feminism? Make a point and stick with it please! 
4)Feminism isn't about DOING THINGS FOR YOU...it is about paving the way should you choose to follow a path. NO ONE DOES THINGS FOR YOU...YOU DO IT FOR YOURSELF
5)Driving is a priviledge for both men and women....so you choose not to; what does that have to do with being a female?
6)Your statement about that you didn't cry to "feminists" but to your dad about woodshop....who do you think fought for the rights of females to get the same education as males?? I don't think it was your dad!
7)Almost forgot....I too work in a field where I am the only woman in a large worldwide corporation in my position. I owe thanks to women before me that have changed men/women's mind that allow the thinking THAT WOMEN CAN DO (AND DO) JUST ABOUT ANYTHING A MAN CAN DO....sorry there are some things I just can't (like get an erection )

If you are going to make an argument; do so with facts and make an actual point. You are just lambasting Feminism with the same brush some people do with people of different skin colors!

*Just out of curiousity; were you born Jew or did you convert? If so; was your lineage through the male or female side of your family?*
(Edited to add bold, italics and underline)

This is my original post...you answered none of the questions except for being Jewish. I was genuinly curious; I have found that often women who come into a "religion" late in life are more prone to extremism.

As for being a Jew....it is a race as well as a religion. You cannot take 1000 of years of tradition and change it. Jew's were a race of people that believed in G*D Jehova. Whether down the lines they decided not to practice; still doesn't mean they are not Jews.

I love knowing that I am Jewish....I may not practice the faith; but I do feel an affinity that I cannot explain.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Originally Posted by RedHead
> Anita....let's clarify a few things.
> 
> 1) You were a law enforcement officer and you NEVER wore pants?? I know several police officers and IT IS REQUIRED THAT THEY WEAR PANTS!
> ...



I'm going to explain my life, and it will probably answer your other questions.

I was born and raised in an Orthodox Jewish home. Both my parents were/are Orthodox Jews. I rebelled against this lifestyle when I was about 19 or 20, at which time I did a lot of rebellious things, including getting a job in a male-dominated profession (law enforcement). That was when I started wearing pants for my job and in general.

I stayed a secular Jew until sometime in the mid 1990s...I RETURNED to an observant Jewish life, I did not adopt it for the first time. I became part of the ba'al teshuva movement, which is a movement of Jews (either raised religious or raised non religious) who discover (or re discover) the religious Jewish life. There are thousands of such Jews; I am not the only one. Using psychobabble to "explain" why I am the way I am, means nothing. If my childhood experiences really had anything to do with it, I would have returned to the religious life long before I did, or I never would have rebelled against it, don't you think?

My return to the religious Jewish life had far more to do with the fact that I now had children to raise, and I wanted them raised with religious structure. Other things were going on too, that led me back to the religious life, but my children played a large role. It is very, very common for people to move away from the religion of their youth, only to re embrace it once they have children.

BTW if you persist on referring to being Jewish as a RACE, know that the only ones who agree with you on that are neoNazis. 

EVERY reputable JEWISH leader, rabbi, teacher, etc, of ALL branches (reform, reconstructionist, conservative and Orthodox) adamantly say being Jewish IS NOT a race. Don't believe me? Ask them!


From http://www.jewfaq.com/judaism.htm

Are Jews a Race? 
In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect. 

*But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin. *
*But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race. 

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to. *

*Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).*>>>

Want to see the people who say being Jewish IS a race? Go here:

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/2004b/32304georgepgeneticfreaks.htm


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

Actually, Hitler said anyone related to a Jewish person *was* a Jew. Here we are:

"...Orthodox Rabbinical law, which defines a Jew as the child of a Jewish mother...
According to Nazi law, however, a Jew "is" a person with a known Jewish ancestor..."

Source: Robert Anton Wilson


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Actually, Hitler said anyone related to a Jewish person *was* a Jew. Here we are:
> 
> "...Orthodox Rabbinical law, which defines a Jew as the child of a Jewish mother...
> According to Nazi law, however, a Jew "is" a person with a known Jewish ancestor..."
> ...




That's also right....Hitler said anyone with ONE Jewish ancestor was a Jew for his purposes. Hence, people who had great great grandparents who were Jews, even if their family had been Christian for generations, were marched to the gas chambers.

But that's not the Halachic (Jewish law) definition of a Jew. By Jewish law, a person is a Jew if they a) were born of a Jewish mother b) were converted to Judaism according to Halacha (Jewish law). Any children a woman gave birth to BEFORE a conversion to Judaism are not Jewish and would need to undergo conversions also in order to be regarded as Jews. Any children such a woman gives birth to AFTER her conversion are regarded as 100% born Jews.


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## MisticalMisty (Mar 26, 2006)

What does being a Jew have to do with feminism? Good gravy you guys hijacked your own thread.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

All of this clarifies for me something I suspected already: I am SOOOOOOOOO(!) not Jewish. I couldn't BE more WASP-ish if I tried. My family came over on the Mayflower. I can't think of even one Jewish ancestor. Heck, I didn't even circumcize my son!

But I do know this: whether feminist-born or feminist-bred, I AM a feminist.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> What does being a Jew have to do with feminism? Good gravy you guys hijacked your own thread.



Oh. And I'm a feminist who loves gravy. Mmmmmmmmm.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

So, you say someone can be a born Jew, but then you're a Jew even if you're non-practicing? But you can convert? See where that's kind of logically flawed?


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> What does being a Jew have to do with feminism? Good gravy you guys hijacked your own thread.



FC made this an either/or thread. If she's using her religion as an excuse not to advocate for women, she should explain why. (Too many good Jewish women are also feminists.)


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

*Rabbi Schochet
(Click To View Bio) 


RedHeadAK : undefined
14:10 : Rabbi Schochet
RedHeadAK : Hello
Rabbi Schochet : HI
RedHeadAK : My question is; what does Jewish law say about a married woman having male friends who are either single or married themselves?
Rabbi Schochet : It shuns the very essence of such an idea.
RedHeadAK : May I ask why?
Rabbi Schochet : Because it goes against the basic laws of modesty where women keep to their kind and the man they are open with is their husband.
Rabbi Schochet : It's a recipe for a "disastor"....
RedHeadAK : I would agree; but I was told that I was wrong by a orthodox Jewish woman...and I found it very hard to believe.
Rabbi Schochet : Did she have any source for that?
Rabbi Schochet : The mishna in avot says "al tarbe sicha im haisha", which means don't engage in long talk with a woman.
Rabbi Schochet : So that's a clear indication.....
RedHeadAK : No; just her own statement that she ONLY has male friends. When I questioned her; she said I was ignorant of Jewish Law.
RedHeadAK : Thank you for your time and knowledge!
Rabbi Schochet : Well I think she might be ignorant.
Rabbi Schochet : 
Rabbi Schochet : You can suggest her to look in pirkei avot
Rabbi Schochet : and in chumash parshat naso
Rabbi Schochet : About the sota story
RedHeadAK : I will thank you again!*

Hey Anita....sorry it took me so long; but I had to have a conversation with a Rabbi! (See above text)

I think you can see by the above conversation that your take on male friends is not considered correct.

I did this to point out that like this, the rest of your arguments have failed just as miserably. If you are going to have a debate on something that can be substanitated by facts; may I suggest that you actually use some.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

Someone's being a little pot stirrer.


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> BTW if you persist on referring to being Jewish as a RACE, know that the only ones who agree with you on that are neoNazis.
> 
> EVERY reputable JEWISH leader, rabbi, teacher, etc, of ALL branches (reform, reconstructionist, conservative and Orthodox) adamantly say being Jewish IS NOT a race. Don't believe me? Ask them!
> 
> ...



Big Sigh...back to google...will be back with more facts shortly!


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

Anita....this is from the website Judaism 101...I think you will recognize it 

*Clearly, there is a religion called Judaism, a set of ideas about the world and the way we should live our lives that is called "Judaism." It is studied in Religious Studies courses and taught to Jewish children in Hebrew schools. See What do Jews Believe? for details. There is a lot of flexibility about certain aspects of those beliefs, and a lot of disagreement about specifics, but that flexibility is built into the organized system of belief that is Judaism. 


However, many people who call themselves Jews do not believe in that religion at all! More than half of all Jews in Israel today call themselves "secular," and don't believe in G-d or any of the religious beliefs of Judaism. Half of all Jews in the United States don't belong to any synagogue. They may practice some of the rituals of Judaism and celebrate some of the holidays, but they don't think of these actions as religious activities. 
The most traditional Jews and the most liberal Jews and everyone in between would agree that these secular people are still Jews, regardless of their disbelief. See Who is a Jew? Clearly, then, there is more to being Jewish than just a religion
Are Jews a Race? 
In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect. 
But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin. 
But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race. 

Gee Anita.does this look familiar.you could have quoted the whole article at least. Not good, not good at all!

Most secular American Jews think of their Jewishness as a matter of culture or ethnicity. When they think of Jewish culture, they think of the food, of the Yiddish language, of some limited holiday observances, and of cultural values like the emphasis on education. 
Those secular American Jews would probably be surprised to learn that much of what they think of as Jewish culture is really just Ashkenazic Jewish culture, the culture of Jews whose ancestors come from one part of the world. Jews have lived in many parts of the world and have developed many different traditions. *

Even within the Jewish structure is the thought that Jews are a race of people. This is not all about Nazi Germany; what they did to the Jews was horrific and shameful. But just because one mad mans idea turned everything into a bloody, shameful mark on our history, doesn't necessarily negate the fact that the thought that Jews are a race can be correct in the sense of the word.

Yes, race is established because of common physical attributes and genetic similarities. But if that were the case, then we truly have no "race" at all due to the fact that we are all intermixed so much.

My point is; that it is thought among the U.S. Government that Jews are a race (it's a law) and some Jews believe it as well. It is not all as cut and dried as you would have us believe.

We got off on this tangent of Judaism because you made it sound like you cannot be a feminist if you are Jewish....perhaps that's not what you meant. Besides, some of the most famous Feminists I know are Jewish women...Barbara Streisand, Gloria Steinman


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

I know a number of Jewish feminists and don't find the two to be mutually exclusive.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Hm, let's see...I don't wear pants, I don't vote, I don't drive, my father and mother taught me to read and write at home before kindergarten...what exactly has feminism done FOR ME PERSONALLY that I did not do ON MY OWN without their help? I don't recall ever asking the feminist movement once for help to do ANY of the things I wanted to do in my life. When they tried to deny me the right to take woodshop in junior high instead of home ec, I didn't cry to feminists, I ask my Dad to help, and he did. He got me switched to woodshop, where I wanted to be because I liked it (I used to do projects with my Dad in his workshop.)
> 
> When I got hired as the first female law enforcement officer for a local university in the 1980s, did I ask feminism to help me? Nope. I was picked on and teased as the first and (then) only female, but I stuck it out and did my job. I also scored at the top of my class at the police acedemy (where we had to go for firearms training.) Feminism didn't help me, I did it MYSELF, through HARD WORK and DETERMINATION.
> 
> ...



Anita, you miss the point. Had there not been a successful women's rights movement, you wouldn't be discussing your options to work. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, we have accomplished what we have because a great number of courageous, intelligent women paved the way for us.

There was a time not too long ago that we were considered the property of our fathers - and then our husbands. We weren't allowed to own property. We weren't allowed to vote, or to work outside the home without permission (and even then, only at a job that was defined as women's work, so as not to take away from a man). You seem very ignorant of our past. If it weren't for women like Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucy Stone, Alice Paul, Lucy Burns, Margaret Sanger .... and the list goes on, and on .... you wouldn't have the luxury of dismissing their sacrifices. Because you'd be far too busy raising children, working in your home, obeying your husband (lest he beat you half to death, his legally sanctioned right) ... whether you wanted this life or not. It's the only option that would have been open to you.


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## Jes (Mar 26, 2006)

djewell said:


> There is a mitzvah (commandment) that men must please their wives when they have sex with them.


Allrighty--who do I complain to? Is there a form I fill out and take to a Rabbi, or what...?


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## Jes (Mar 26, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> Oh. And I'm a feminist who loves gravy. Mmmmmmmmm.


I'm a feminist who loves jews! (I blame working at an east coast Ivy. they're thick on the ground here!!)


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

Well, help them up then.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

RedHead said:


> *Rabbi Schochet
> (Click To View Bio)
> 
> 
> ...



Gee you really are obsessed!  I wish you'd have also expressed to him your belief that Jews are a RACE, and that a child born of a convert to Judaism is also a convert. Then you'd look like the ignorant one, eh?

OK, so if I'm not allowed to have male friends, then I just won't have ANY friends, since I do not get along well with women at all. Actually, I kinda like that idea better...I always got along better with my books than anyone!

But to be serious, you asked ONE rabbi...and if you know anything about Orthodox Judaism, you know that beyond certain hard and fast rules, nothing is set in stone. For every rabbi who would say what your friend did, I could show you others who would say the opposite. I have a lot of friends who are Orthodox rabbis...are you saying I'm not allowed to be friends with them? I guess I'd better let them know! (lol)


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

Tina said:


> I know a number of Jewish feminists and don't find the two to be mutually exclusive.




TRADITIONAL Judaism and modern feminism have absolutely NOTHING in common. Just because someone has a Jewish name does not qualify them to speak for the Jewish religion, or the entire Jewish ppl for that matter.

I associate with a LOT of Orthodox Jews, Chasidic in fact...both men and women...and NONE are feminists. In fact the women are very anti-feminist.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> ...Just because someone has a Jewish name does not qualify them to speak for the Jewish religion, or the entire Jewish ppl for that matter.



And that's what everyone's been saying all along.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

True. Just as it doesn't entitle you to, either.

And now, why are we talking about your religion in a thread about feminism?

Since you've listed the "cons", when are you going to list the "pros", or was I correct in saying your only aim here was to criticize and bash?


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## missaf (Mar 26, 2006)

I'd just like to point out that FitChick is also recognizing that through progress she's allowed to have her choice in friends, including the choice to have men as friends. 

So much of any religion won't directly apply to someone in a unique situation like FitChick finds herself in. She's recognizing progress, but she's also wanting to maintain a connection to the religion she finds pleasure in. That's a direct relation to the progress of the past, whether you like it or not.

In the future, I'd love to see this type of discussion less emotionally charged and from the point of view of each person rather than spouting facts at each other and starting to call each other names. Y'all are more mature than that.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

Us all? 

And wow, that's real progress!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

Missaf, that's terrific. She SHOULD be proud of her religion. What she shouldn't be saying is that feminism only made her angry and bitter, and no one understands her but men, and generally behaving like a know-it-all. It's bossy to push your beliefs on other people and not expect a reaction. She said it isn't feminism that helped; it was her daddy. I've never seen her say one nice thing to another woman on here. 

This should be less emotionally charged; you're right, but FC has to quit being so incredibly nasty to people if she wants better treatment. In my experience, men are a lot more likely to put up with hateful spewings of horseshit than women.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Missaf, that's terrific. She SHOULD be proud of her religion. What she shouldn't be saying is that feminism only made her angry and bitter, and no one understands her but men, and generally behaving like a know-it-all. It's bossy to push your beliefs on other people and not expect a reaction. She said it isn't feminism that helped; it was her daddy. I've never seen her say one nice thing to another woman on here.
> 
> This should be less emotionally charged; you're right, but FC has to quit being so incredibly nasty to people if she wants better treatment. In my experience, men are a lot more likely to put up with hateful spewings of horseshit than women.




One reason why I think I have never had a blowup with a male friend, is because they (like me) tend to say it like it is. I have noticed that; women tend to want to be polite, and say things in veiled ways...men tend to say what's on their mind. So do I. Maybe that is why women and I don't get along? And maybe its why men and I DO? I want and expect straightforward honesty from friends, and I get it from male friends. Female friends will be syrupy sweet to your face, then say what they really think behind your back. I don't have time for BS games like that.

Which reminds me of another female erstwhile friend....she had us come to her house for a cookout, she invited me inside to show me a skirt she recently bought. She asked me the classic question, 'Does this skirt make my butt look fat?" I said, "Yes" (because it did.) She got all nuts on me and wouldnt talk to me for hours (btw this was before I found the fact acceptance mvmt and came to understand what that question is all about.)

It was a MALE friend who had to explain to me why you don't tell the truth when a woman asks that...he said, "When a woman asks that, she doesn't want the truth...she wants you to compliment her!" I didn't realize that.

Its like when a woman sees another woman wearing the same exact outfit, she gets all nuts. I once saw another woman wearing the same coat as me, and I thought, "She's got good taste!"  See what I mean by the difference?


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> In my experience, men are a lot more likely to put up with hateful spewings of horseshit than women.



Now that's a generalization I can live with.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

Anita, we've been saying it like it is in this thread, and the other thread about polygamy. But you don't seem to like that either. 

Is there any way that women CAN communicate with you that's acceptable?


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> Anita, we've been saying it like it is in this thread, and the other thread about polygamy. But you don't seem to like that either.
> 
> Is there any way that women CAN communicate with you that's acceptable?



Yeah. To quote Dr Evil: ZIPIT!  

As a male friend of mine likes to say, What does a woman have in common with a TV?

They both keep talking even when nobody's listening.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Missaf, that's terrific. She SHOULD be proud of her religion. What she shouldn't be saying is that feminism only made her angry and bitter, and no one understands her but men, and generally behaving like a know-it-all. It's bossy to push your beliefs on other people and not expect a reaction. She said it isn't feminism that helped; it was her daddy. I've never seen her say one nice thing to another woman on here.
> 
> This should be less emotionally charged; you're right, but FC has to quit being so incredibly nasty to people if she wants better treatment. In my experience, men are a lot more likely to put up with hateful spewings of horseshit than women.



That is because often some men look at that stuff as "women's stuff' and roll their eyes. Or they get excited if it looks like there will be a "cat fight." Women usually take that type of behavior much more seriously.

Personally, I've had these "discussions" with horrible anti-woman, anti-feminist trolls. Anita's posts are nothing compared to them. No sweat here.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Its like when a woman sees another woman wearing the same exact outfit, she gets all nuts. I once saw another woman wearing the same coat as me, and I thought, "She's got good taste!"  See what I mean by the difference?



What I see is generalization. I've been in that situation: myself and someone else in the same outfit and didn't give a whit. Thought the same thing you did. And yet, I'm a woman. Amazing!


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Yeah. To quote Dr Evil: ZIPIT!
> 
> As a male friend of mine likes to say, What does a woman have in common with a TV?
> 
> They both keep talking even when nobody's listening.



Wow. How shocking you can't make friends with women. I mean, you have so very much to offer. (That was me being catty, but I'd rather be catty than a totally offensive asshat).


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

Tina said:


> That is because often some men look at that stuff as "women's stuff' and roll their eyes. Or they get excited if it looks like there will be a "cat fight." Women usually take that type of behavior much more seriously.
> 
> Personally, I've had these "discussions" with horrible anti-woman, anti-feminist trolls. Anita's posts are nothing compared to them. No sweat here.



Funny story... Last night I was working, and we were rapidly getting behind because a piece of equipment wouldn't let me sign on. I radioed my boss and said I needed him ASAP. He said he'd be there in a minute. I said, "I don't think I can wait that long." When he asked why, for whatever reason, I spouted off, "There's a cat fight!" Well, every manager and about half the workers in the store come running to the back to see.  Real fun to go, "Uh, yeah, I lied to get him back here faster."


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

Tina said:


> What I see is generalization. I've been in that situation: myself and someone else in the same outfit and didn't give a whit. Thought the same thing you did. And yet, I'm a woman. Amazing!



I love it when I see women wearing the same clothes as me, and in fact if someone asks where I got something, I'll give them detailed information so they can get one of their own. In fact, I've had several of my fabulous female friends pass along clothes that I liked that no longer fit then, and I'm in the process of doing the very same thing.

Damn. I must be a man. Now where'd my penis go??


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

OMG, that is just hilarious! It's almost like yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre, eh?


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> I love it when I see women wearing the same clothes as me, and in fact if someone asks where I got something, I'll give them detailed information so they can get one of their own. In fact, I've had several of my fabulous female friends pass along clothes that I liked that no longer fit then, and I'm in the process of doing the very same thing.
> 
> Damn. I must be a man. Now where'd my penis go??



Mine is 3,100 miles away. It's on loan.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

Tina said:


> Mine is 3,100 miles away. It's on loan.



LOL! :wubu: :smitten: 

Mine's across town at a gaming convention. I miss it... erm, I mean him.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Funny story... Last night I was working, and we were rapidly getting behind because a piece of equipment wouldn't let me sign on. I radioed my boss and said I needed him ASAP. He said he'd be there in a minute. I said, "I don't think I can wait that long." When he asked why, for whatever reason, I spouted off, "There's a cat fight!" Well, every manager and about half the workers in the store come running to the back to see.  Real fun to go, "Uh, yeah, I lied to get him back here faster."



That's great. Why are catfights so exciting to guys? It's like watching a car wreck. Aren't people funny?


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## Jack Skellington (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Its like when a woman sees another woman wearing the same exact outfit, she gets all nuts.



That I can understand. Nothing pisses me off more than someone wearing the same dress as me.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 26, 2006)

Jack Skellington said:


> That I can understand. Nothing pisses me off more than someone wearing the same dress as me.



Honey, no one looks as good in a dress as you!


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## missaf (Mar 26, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> That's great. Why are catfights so exciting to guys? It's like watching a car wreck. Aren't people funny?




Cat fight, as in woman fight? Those were the most brutal when I was in high school. The guys always took this macho approach "Ya, punk, I took you down in one hit!" The girls would be brutal, pulling hair, nails, biting, twisting nipples, throwing chairs... :shocked: 

And I can say with certainty that the girl fights were ALWAYS worse, even hospitalizing teachers on occasion!


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## missaf (Mar 26, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Honey, no one looks as good in a dress as you!




I can think of another guy on the board who looks good in a dress, but I won't name him


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

I think much of that is socialization. Boys are taught to mind their strength; girls are taught not to fight, that they shouldn't fight, and even that they cannot fight. So I think that when it happens, it's balls out. 

Why do guys want to watch? In hopes that skin will be exposed, of course.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 26, 2006)

missaf said:


> Cat fight, as in woman fight? Those were the most brutal when I was in high school. The guys always took this macho approach "Ya, punk, I took you down in one hit!" The girls would be brutal, pulling hair, nails, biting, twisting nipples, throwing chairs... :shocked:
> 
> And I can say with certainty that the girl fights were ALWAYS worse, even hospitalizing teachers on occasion!



I remember a couple of them, and you're right. They're brutal. OTOH, we've had several fights in our local high schools among young men, and they involved knives, guns, and the like. I think I'd take my chance with a tittie twister any day.


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## missaf (Mar 26, 2006)

Tina said:


> I think much of that is socialization. Boys are taught to mind their strength; girls are taught not to fight, that they shouldn't fight, and even that they cannot fight. So I think that when it happens, it's balls out.
> 
> Why do guys want to watch? In hopes that skin will be exposed, of course.



I think we offered to have an oil wrestling contest-- I said I'd oil wrestle Jes, and well, there were a few more volunteers after that


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> That's great. Why are catfights so exciting to guys? It's like watching a car wreck. Aren't people funny?



I didnt realize catfights are exciting to guys. I know they're exciting to ME. I get a kick out of watching two women go at it...hair ripping, clothes ripping, on Springer when I'm working out. I don't know, it just cracks me up! Instant entertainment or something.


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm sure. Especially in this place! 

Personally, I'm more interested in wrestling with my guy... No offense, or anything.


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## FitChick (Mar 26, 2006)

I think I doubleposted!


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## Tina (Mar 26, 2006)

I thought you just really felt strongly about it.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Yeah. To quote Dr Evil: ZIPIT!
> 
> As a male friend of mine likes to say, What does a woman have in common with a TV?
> 
> They both keep talking even when nobody's listening.


Wow. It looks like more than anything else, you need a better class of friends...


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> One reason why I think I have never had a blowup with a male friend, is because they (like me) tend to say it like it is. I have noticed that; women tend to want to be polite, and say things in veiled ways...men tend to say what's on their mind. So do I. Maybe that is why women and I don't get along? And maybe its why men and I DO? I want and expect straightforward honesty from friends, and I get it from male friends. Female friends will be syrupy sweet to your face, then say what they really think behind your back. I don't have time for BS games like that.
> 
> Which reminds me of another female erstwhile friend....she had us come to her house for a cookout, she invited me inside to show me a skirt she recently bought. She asked me the classic question, 'Does this skirt make my butt look fat?" I said, "Yes" (because it did.) She got all nuts on me and wouldnt talk to me for hours (btw this was before I found the fact acceptance mvmt and came to understand what that question is all about.)
> 
> ...



Okay....I have friends ask me that stuff all the time; and I do tell them that it doesn't look good on them. But I do it with love and a suggestion of what would look better.

Perhaps it's not them who are being catty and bitchy...perhaps it's your unwavering belief that being honest equates with being mean. You can be honest without ripping out someones pride and stomping on it.

As for wearing the same outfit...I too think the same thing.


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## RedHead (Mar 26, 2006)

Fighting and wrestling! Yah I dig it; I'd probably do the Thursday Night Fights if I wasn't in a field that required me to be face to face with people everyday.

I took the Alaska State Championship Wrestling title in 1976...I kicked the boys butts!


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## djewell (Mar 26, 2006)

ok i'm going to try and clear up a few issues of halakha (Jewish Law) here. I think i'm the best one to do this, seeing as I had a chassidic Jewish upbringing, am still a chassidic Jew, and intend to teach in a yeshiva in a few years.

1)children of a ger tzedek (a righteous convert) are not considered converts. as proof of this, the children of converts are permitted to marry kohanim (priests), who are typically not allowed to marry converts.

2)I don't know that springer is a good show for a jewish woman.

3)RedHead: you said, "*We got off on this tangent of Judaism because you made it sound like you cannot be a feminist if you are Jewish....perhaps that's not what you meant. Besides, some of the most famous Feminists I know are Jewish women...Barbara Streisand, Gloria Steinman"*-->barbara streisand is a jew. but, she is not very jewish. please do not presume that her opinions represent anything close to the opinion of traditional judaism.

4)Jes: There's no complaint form. It's online now at www.myhusbandisnotfulfillinghiskesubahduties.god

Did I miss anything?


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## RedHead (Mar 27, 2006)

djewell said:


> ok i'm going to try and clear up a few issues of halakha (Jewish Law) here. I think i'm the best one to do this, seeing as I had a chassidic Jewish upbringing, am still a chassidic Jew, and intend to teach in a yeshiva in a few years.
> 
> 1)children of a ger tzedek (a righteous convert) are not considered converts. as proof of this, the children of converts are permitted to marry kohanim (priests), who are typically not allowed to marry converts.
> 
> ...



Oh I totally know that she's not very "Jewish"...I was just making the point that Anita didn't speak for every woman of the Jewish faith. Just as I don't for all RedHeads...I wanted to but they all wanted to wear the crown too! Damn them!


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## Jack Skellington (Mar 27, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Honey, no one looks as good in a dress as you!



I am quite fetching in my little black dress.


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## RedHead (Mar 27, 2006)

Jack,

We require pictures please. Also what kind of shoe do you wear?


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## Tina (Mar 27, 2006)

Jack, I'm thinking something along the lines of Morticia Adams...


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## FitChick (Mar 27, 2006)

djewell said:


> ok i'm going to try and clear up a few issues of halakha (Jewish Law) here. I think i'm the best one to do this, seeing as I had a chassidic Jewish upbringing, am still a chassidic Jew, and intend to teach in a yeshiva in a few years.
> 
> 1)children of a ger tzedek (a righteous convert) are not considered converts. as proof of this, the children of converts are permitted to marry kohanim (priests), who are typically not allowed to marry converts.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this one. Its not the first time I have run into Jews not knowledgeable, who thought the children of converts were also converts.

As for Springer, when I work out in the AM there is NOTHING else on TV to watch anyway (I don't have cable upstairs)...usually I watch cycling videos but they even get tired after a while. lol


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## Jes (Mar 27, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Honey, no one looks as good in a dress as you!


I've been telling him that for months, but will he listen? No, no he won't. Nor has he accepted being my official internet piece of ass. I can't win!


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