# Marriage by the Numbers



## grey1969 (Jun 11, 2006)

In early 1986, a demographic study from a team of Harvard and Yale researchers, who looked at the odds of women getting married at various ages, was published. It was picked up by the media and Newsweek did a feature article. In their recent June 5th issue, Newsweek did a 20 year followup. An abbreviated version of the article from the Newsweek website is attached here.



Some interesting snippets from this article:

" In "The Marriage Crunch," the magazine reported on new demographic research from Harvard and Yale predicting that white, college-educated women who failed to marry in their 20s faced abysmal odds of ever tying the knot. According to the research, a woman who remained single at 30 had only a 20 percent chance of ever marrying. By 35, the probability dropped to 5 percent. In the story's most infamous line, NEWSWEEK reported that a 40-year-old single woman was "more likely to be killed by a terrorist" than to ever marry. That comparison wasn't in the study, and even in those pre-9/11 days, it struck many people as offensive. Nonetheless, it quickly became entrenched in 
pop culture."

"Statistically, people who marry at much higher-than-average ages don't have lower odds for divorce. But some experts are starting to think that 
later-in-life marriages may have better chances of survival."

"In a shift from the earlier studies, done in the mid-'80s, however, the newer studies conclude that nowadays, a college degree makes a woman more likely to marry, not less. The Princeton paper suggests that for female college graduates born between 1960 and 1964, 97.4 percent will eventually marry." 

View attachment Marriage by the Numbers.txt


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## GeorgeNL (Jun 11, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> The Princeton paper suggests that for female college graduates born between 1960 and 1964, 97.4 percent will eventually marry."



MMmm well that still gives a little hope. Though the study is completely focussed on women. Looking at my old study mates from the university, they're all somewhere between 34 and 40 and about 12% has found mate, the other's are still searching.


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## thislittlepiggy (Jun 11, 2006)

Good point, GeorgeNL ... why are these studies focused on women? Why didn't Newsweek in 1986 offer overblown statistics meant to frighten men that their marriage prospects were dire? I think Newsweek was incredibly irresponsible to print what it did in 1986. I'm sure many despaired based on their "study," and to come along twenty years after say "Oops!" doesn't make it all better.


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## Adrian (Jun 12, 2006)

This study was on White women who are college educated. The statistics are not so rosy Black women who are college educated. While at birth there are 102 Black baby girls to 100 Black baby males. By age 24yo, the odds have dropped 100 females to 84 males. When you subtract the Blackmen in prisons (over 150K Blackmales), the number of Blackmen who marry outside the Black race, a 5:1 ratio, the mentally ill, un-educated, etc. the answer is bleak. It turns out that there are around two women for every one. If you look at the number of men by relaxing some requirements, like a college education to some extent instead of a degree the odds go up to three women for every two men.
The odds of staying married past thirdteen years are very low. Three out every four Black children in America grow up to the age of eighteen without both parents being together!

Yes the lack of education and teen pregnancies alter these statistics but when you factor out these two parameters the numbers are still bad.

There are several other minorities in which being an educated women and wanting an educated man, would encounter similar statistics.

Adrian


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## Tina (Jun 12, 2006)

I never gave that study any credence, or believed it would apply to me, and it hasn't. They're just numbers.


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## JMNYC (Jun 12, 2006)

Tina said:


> I never gave that study any credence, or believed it would apply to me, and it hasn't. They're just numbers.


 
Amen. You can use statistics to confirm or deny anything, really. I didn't care if I got married or not---in fact I was more prone not to marry because of my parents' brawling, hate-filled, wacko-dacko relationship that still continues to this day. But I found someone (sings like Cher) to take away the heartache! And here I am.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm not sure why never getting married is so horrible...


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## TallFatSue (Jun 12, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> In early 1986, a demographic study from a team of Harvard and Yale researchers, who looked at the odds of women getting married at various ages, was published. It was picked up by the media and Newsweek did a feature article. In their recent June 5th issue, Newsweek did a 20 year followup.


Statistics are well and good in the aggregate, but I've never been much interested in marrying an aggregate.  What really matters is what works for each of us as individuals. The only marriage stat that really concerned me was our 24th anniversary, with our silver anniversary coming up next year.


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## LillyBBBW (Jun 12, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I'm not sure why never getting married is so horrible...



I agree. The study assumes that all women are lolling about hoping to get married. It doesn't take into account that some people are single by choice or that the kind of marriage they are interested in isn't available.


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## moonvine (Jun 12, 2006)

thislittlepiggy said:


> Good point, GeorgeNL ... why are these studies focused on women? Why didn't Newsweek in 1986 offer overblown statistics meant to frighten men that their marriage prospects were dire? I think Newsweek was incredibly irresponsible to print what it did in 1986. I'm sure many despaired based on their "study," and to come along twenty years after say "Oops!" doesn't make it all better.




Well, anecdotally there seem to be fewer men than women who are worried about getting married. Fear of not getting married seems a more prevalent thing amongst women than amongst men, though men may be less willing to admit/discuss it. Also, men's value on the "marriage market" tends to increase with age, while women's tends to decline. Men in their late 40's/early 50's, especially if they have some money, are quite desirable to some women. Women in their late 40's and beyond - not so much.


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## moonvine (Jun 12, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I'm not sure why never getting married is so horrible...



I think that depends entirely on the person. If getting married and having a family is a goal of yours (as it is/was of mine) and you are unable to achieve that goal, it is sad and frustrating. 

If that isn't a goal of yours? Not so sad/frustrating.


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## GeorgeNL (Jun 12, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I'm not sure why never getting married is so horrible...



It's not. But it's all fine if you have the oppertunity and choose differently. However, if you only hear stories about what it is to love, to be loved, and to make love, and you don't get the chance to experience anything yourself, it can be frustrating. That in reality a good circle of friends can be just as good, does not take away the curiosity.


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## SamanthaNY (Jun 12, 2006)

I just figured I would never get married. The area I grew up in was uber-snotty and about as un-fat-friendly as you could get, and I was told that I would succeed at few things without a size-6 body. It mattered little to me since I had always been relatively self-sufficient, so I went on my merry (not marry) way and planned for a life as a single person. It didn't really occur to me to be upset about it. I sort of likened it to not being a natural born redhead (oh well). I completed college, started in and became quite successful in a career, and owned my own home. Had a lot of friends along the way, but no one guy who was particularly special. 

Then, when I was about 35 or so - I found the Dimensions website and chatroom. Wait, what?... you guys LIKE fat women?! :shocked: (gets all Elaine-ish) Get... OUT! (my only regret is that I didn't know about this community when I was 15 or 16). 

There was fella in chat who became very special to me. This one's smart, I thought to myself. He actually has me looking up word definitions. Hmm... yes, this one's special. We chatted, emailed, phoned... and eventually met. I told him when we were first dating that I didn't want to get married, ever (a point he reminds me of occasionally, with amusement). Things progressed, and he moved several hundred miles to live near me. After falling in love with him, it occurred to me that I DID want to be married. To _him_. I suddenly figured out why people did it! I still didn't get rock-climbing, Saabs or new Coke, but *this *I understood! It was something that we could do _together_, a special thing that couples get to do, and I wanted it. 

We lived together for 6 years before we actually got married in 2004 (I was 42). He's the bestest person on the face of the earth and I hope my life is as long as his - to the second. But no longer.

I suppose what all this means is that statistics and numbers mean dick when it comes to _your _life. Set your goals for yourself. Plan your own flight, and if you happen to pick up a co-pilot on the way, then all the better.


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## grey1969 (Jun 12, 2006)

thislittlepiggy said:


> Good point, GeorgeNL ... why are these studies focused on women? Why didn't Newsweek in 1986 offer overblown statistics meant to frighten men that their marriage prospects were dire? I think Newsweek was incredibly irresponsible to print what it did in 1986. I'm sure many despaired based on their "study," and to come along twenty years after say "Oops!" doesn't make it all better.



"The researchers focused on women, not men, largely because government statisticians had collected better age-of-marriage data for females as part of its studies on fertility and birthrates."


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## grey1969 (Jun 12, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I agree. The study assumes that all women are lolling about hoping to get married. It doesn't take into account that some people are single by choice or that the kind of marriage they are interested in isn't available.



"Not everyone wants to marry, of course. And we're long past those Jane Austen days when being "marriage-minded" was primarily a female trait; *today many men openly hope for a wife just as much as women long for a husband*. The good news is that older singles who desire a spouse appear to face far kinder odds nowadays. When the Census last crunched the numbers in 1996, a single woman at 40 had a 40.8 % chance of eventually marrying. Today those odds are probably even higher - and may be only slightly worse than the probability of correctly choosing 'heads' or 'tails' in a coin toss."

I think most men desire to have children in order to leave a legacy. This is another important motivating factor for men to marry, particularly as they get older (over 30) and begin to think about their mortality.


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## Ryan (Jun 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think that depends entirely on the person. If getting married and having a family is a goal of yours (as it is/was of mine) and you are unable to achieve that goal, it is sad and frustrating.
> 
> If that isn't a goal of yours? Not so sad/frustrating.



I agree. But there are people out there who seem to believe that it's impossible for a person to be single and happy. I've met a number of them and have even been given some crap for my relative lack of interest in marriage and having children. At the other extreme; I've also heard it said that it's impossible for someone to be happier when married than when single, or even to be truly happy at all if married.


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## JustPlainJim (Jun 13, 2006)

I find this kind of disheartening... Any stats out there for the guys, or is it just the women that all want to be married? (Yes, and the guys are just dragged into it beucase they want sex! It all makes sense now!* )

~~~~~
*: Sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 14, 2006)

Welcome to Sexism, Jim. 

I despise the, "Women like Commitment; Men like to Screw," hoopla. I feel your pain.


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## grey1969 (Jun 14, 2006)

JustPlainJim said:


> I find this kind of disheartening... Any stats out there for the guys, or is it just the women that all want to be married? (Yes, and the guys are just dragged into it beucase they want sex! It all makes sense now!* )
> 
> ~~~~~
> *: Sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.



And on that note, allow me to set the record straight about my motivation for posting this topic. It has been pointed out to me privately that this may have been construed as some sort of dig against singles (particularly those over 30) as we had become accustomed to seeing from a former Dimensions member. If this had been the original article from 1986, that would have been a legitimate conclusion. However, what we are talking about here is the debunking of the original prediction that a single person at 40 years old has almost no chance to get married. In contrast, the latest data suggests that person has a roughly 50% chance of marrying (statistically speaking). *So rather than being disheartened, reading this article should make anyone feel good that marriage is a very viable possibility for singles of all ages. Therefore it really was intended to be a feelgood thread. *Of course there will always be those who believe it is their job to pick apart anything I post on these boards and make me out to be a sexist pig. 

Regarding the concern that these studies are focused on women and not men, as I have posted above (posts #14 and 15 of this thread) there is an acknowledgement that men are, in general, just as intent as women to marry and have children (I certainly fell into this category in my single days), and the reason for focusing on women was simply a practical one being that the data existed from another purpose.

I was also asked why I posted this since it appears to have nothing to do with fat acceptance. While that is true, it is indirectly connected and there certainly are a number of single folks over 30 here who I believe can relate and possibly be given some renewed optimism. Also, since many FAs will come to accept their orientation when they are older and less susceptible to peer pressure, it may be that the BBW/FA marriage will naturally fit into this new marriage paradigm.

Lastly, I want to thank Samantha for sharing her wonderful story , and wish everyone else here all the best!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 14, 2006)

I think everyone understood that we're supposed to feel overjoyed that we women "have a chance." Getting married would be nice, but I don't think every single woman on this board is staying up all night worrying about it.


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## LillyBBBW (Jun 14, 2006)

JustPlainJim said:


> I find this kind of disheartening... Any stats out there for the guys, or is it just the women that all want to be married? (Yes, and the guys are just dragged into it beucase they want sex! It all makes sense now!* )
> 
> ~~~~~
> *: Sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.



Hey I was once approached by a guy who was desperate to start a family. In every meeting he brought the conversation 'round to having babies, his clock was ticking so loud it made me nervous. In fact I've met two men like that. Of course I ran like hell. Aside from the fact that neither of them were financially secure enough to have kids, I barely knew them.


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## JustPlainJim (Jun 14, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> Hey I was once approached by a guy who was desperate to start a family. In every meeting he brought the conversation 'round to having babies, his clock was ticking so loud it made me nervous. In fact I've met two men like that. Of course I ran like hell. Aside from the fact that neither of them were financially secure enough to have kids, I barely knew them.



Eh-heh... this was kind of one of my downfalls in my first relationship. >_> I was so in love, I was convinced we were going to get married and live happily ever after. And, couple that with a woman who only talked about our relationship when she was pissed off... *sigh* At least I learned my lesson! ^_^


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## LillyBBBW (Jun 14, 2006)

JustPlainJim said:


> Eh-heh... this was kind of one of my downfalls in my first relationship. >_> I was so in love, I was convinced we were going to get married and live happily ever after. And, couple that with a woman who only talked about our relationship when she was pissed off... *sigh* At least I learned my lesson! ^_^



I think in general some people are unable to get over the hurdle of a person's desire to have children/start a family if they express it as a primary desire. Nothing wrong with really wanting that but people want to feel cared for and cared about and sometimes that doesn't come across as strongly as they would like. One tends to get the feeling that they are merely a suitable incubator for them to spawn an heir. Some people exacerbate their personal issues as a litmus test to see if the person they are with really cares about _them_ and then the person leaves them because they have too many issues. 

EDITED TO SAY: Not suggesting you were like that or your relationship was like that. I was just thinking out loud as an addendum to your post.


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## JustPlainJim (Jun 14, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I think in general some people are unable to get over the hurdle of a person's desire to have children/start a family if they express it as a primary desire. Nothing wrong with really wanting that but people want to feel cared for and cared about and sometimes that doesn't come across as strongly as they would like. One tends to get the feeling that they are merely a suitable incubator for them to spawn an heir. Some people exacerbate their personal issues as a litmus test to see if the person they are with really cares about _them_ and then the person leaves them because they have too many issues.
> 
> EDITED TO SAY: Not suggesting you were like that or your relationship was like that. I was just thinking out loud as an addendum to your post.



Ehh.. I was kinda like that. To be honest, I very rarely treated her like a "incubator", but... I dunno. Maybe I used words like "forever" a bit too often. >_O;;

AS for "too many issues"... usually, the first time I meet someone or IM with someone, I act a bit crazier than most other times (both "haha crazy" and "that's kinda odd crazy"), as a sort of test and a warning. Test for their sense of humor and what I can get away with. Warning that this is likely the worst off you'll ever see me. ^_^


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## rainyday (Jun 14, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I think everyone understood that we're supposed to feel overjoyed that we women "have a chance." Getting married would be nice, but I don't think every single woman on this board is staying up all night worrying about it.



Actually, I've talked to a lot of women--in chat, for example--for whom this is a big worry, even if they're making lives for themselves while they're waiting. Many women here on the board have expressed similar sentiments as well. If this gives them hope, I'm happy. 

When I read the opening post, at first glance I thought it was highlighting a negative. Then I read the article and realized it was really meant to be a positive.

And Sammie, who could read your post and not smile. Great story.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 14, 2006)

If it gives them hope, terrific. I think the more intently focused you are on EXACTLY what your future should be, the less happy you're going to be. Human beings are not facts and figures. They're individuals.

This is where it gets tricky for me to express myself. I don't think it's worth studying how many women approaching middle age get married. What's interesting to me is why more of these women are getting married. Have the values and opinions of college-educated 35 y/o's shifted that much since 1986? That's a phenomenol change in only twenty years. Not saying it's good or bad. Just saying that in and of itself, the article answers no questions that interest me. And if it's boring me, then it must be of the devil.


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## rainyday (Jun 14, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> This is where it gets tricky for me to express myself. I don't think it's worth studying how many women approaching middle age get married. What's interesting to me is why more of these women are getting married. Have the values and opinions of college-educated 35 y/o's shifted that much since 1986? That's a phenomenol change in only twenty years.



I agree. That makes for an interesting question. I know several women my age who planned to never marry, yet now they are, and with kids they never thought they'd want either.


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## GeorgeNL (Jun 17, 2006)

rainyday said:


> I agree. That makes for an interesting question. I know several women my age who planned to never marry, yet now they are, and with kids they never thought they'd want either.


Same is happening on this side of the ocean. But I think it has a lot to do with education. My parents rented their first house and had their first job when they were around the age of 18. My friends and me were around 25 before we started with our first job, and before we exchanged our studyroom for an apartment or house is again five years later. Actually your whole life seems to start later. 

I don't think it is only for women to worry about staying alone. Many men do (like me) feel an emptyness inside when we have no one in our lives. I know, rationally that does not make sense. But I think nature has build that into almost each and everyone of us. And while we can life happily alone, that desire is always there.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 1, 2006)

for a number of reasons.

If you read the old Susan Faludi book about "The Undeclared War Against American Women" this was pointed out in detail, largely that non-college educated women from lower socio-economic backgrounds tended to marry out of high school, while college educated women or women who pursued higher education married later. 

As far as men vs. women marrying, one thing I have always found interesting is that sometimes never married men are viewed more negatively b/c it is assumed that they could marry if they wanted to and if they don't want to it's a sign of immaturity. An older single woman is just to be pitied, because after all, she probably wanted a husband but couldn't find one. An older single man is presumed to not have wanted a wife, and therefore is immature, a swinge, incapable of commitment, etc.

Another issue that many social scientists have pointed out is that many women are actually interested in marriage/children, but that men are often not. It's not a matter of women tossing aside the notion and saying "I don't need a man! I'm off to my career and a turkey baster!" Rather there are many men who will actually criticize or fear women who are open about wanting husbands [and i don't mean the type who talk about china patterns on first dates, just those that say "yes, I would like a husband"] I've heard a lot of men use it as a knock on women if "you can tell she's just desperate to get married" or "she was too aggressive about wanting a commitment." Not to mention that many men are willing to overlook a woman's desire or need to be coupled and continue to date her or live with her without any intention to commit.

I know a guy who has shacked up with a woman for something like five years and will almost brag that she's 'holding out hope' of him making a commitment, but says he has no intention of marrying her. So rather than be a man and tell her the truth, he just stays around wasting her time and allowing her to 'hope.' Probably the man in my life I've had the most respect for was one who said to me "I know what I am looking for in a wife and it's not you. There is nothing wrong with you, but i want a woman who will be a full time wife and mother and that's not what you want. So if you want to keep seeing each other or being friends, you just need to know that." he found the right woman, they are married with four kids and he and i are still friends, solely because he had the spine and the courage and the class to be honest.


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## Slowfuse (Oct 1, 2006)

I was foolish enough to try the social indenture known as marriage. And while I am still fullfilling my contractual obligations to the holder of my indenture, I am treated shabbily. My opinion, do not assume that Marriage = Happiness. But in 10 years my Daughter will graduate, and I will be free to find someone who loves ME. of course, i'll be too old to do anything but hold them.... But am I bitter? Noooooooooooooooooo.............


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## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 1, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> Statistics are well and good in the aggregate, but I've never been much interested in marrying an aggregate.  What really matters is what works for each of us as individuals. The only marriage stat that really concerned me was our 24th anniversary, with our silver anniversary coming up next year.



Sue - I quite agree with your comments about statistics and aggregates. I circumvented the problem: this old nerd engineer married a degreed statistician! We recently celebrated 16 years of marriage, and 25 years of partnership and friendship. When we married, she was 30 and I was 50 y.o. 

Today, even as we speak, I enter my 70th year. Everytime I (and we) think that we couldn't be happier, somehow we notch it up a peg.

Statistics? Now what's the odds on that?


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## RedHotAva (Oct 1, 2006)

When I first started reading the original thread here, I was going to post something like SOMEONE MARRY ME! But then after reading all of the replies, I realize that I am just fine being single, and I would rather wait forever than marry the wrong guy. I have always felt that way, but these stupid studies, articles, etc. always get me so damned nervous.


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## GeorgeNL (Oct 1, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> As far as men vs. women marrying, one thing I have always found interesting is that sometimes never married men are viewed more negatively b/c it is assumed that they could marry if they wanted to and if they don't want to it's a sign of immaturity. An older single woman is just to be pitied, because after all, she probably wanted a husband but couldn't find one. An older single man is presumed to not have wanted a wife, and therefore is immature, a swinge, incapable of commitment, etc.



That is certainly true! When I am amongst my nerdy collegues and friends, it is normal to be single, the fast majority of us are. But outside that realm, yes most people react as if something is wrong with me. They don't know that for an engineer it is exceptional to find a woman.


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## moonvine (Oct 2, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> I know a guy who has shacked up with a woman for something like five years and will almost brag that she's 'holding out hope' of him making a commitment, but says he has no intention of marrying her.



IMHO this is one of very many excellent reasons to not "shack up" at all.


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## SamanthaNY (Oct 2, 2006)

I'd say it was more a reason to lose (or not pick) jerks like that guy.


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## Dibaby35 (Oct 2, 2006)

Sam...just had to say...thats a great life story you have and so inspiring. Thanks for sharing <3


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## TallFatSue (Oct 5, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> Sue - I quite agree with your comments about statistics and aggregates. I circumvented the problem: this old nerd engineer married a degreed statistician! We recently celebrated 16 years of marriage, and 25 years of partnership and friendship. When we married, she was 30 and I was 50 y.o.
> 
> Today, even as we speak, I enter my 70th year. Everytime I (and we) think that we couldn't be happier, somehow we notch it up a peg.
> 
> Statistics? Now what's the odds on that?


Works for us! I'm an accountant happily married to a nerdy engineer, looking forward to our silver anniversary next year. Although I married a younger man: I was 25 and he was 23. When we first met 5 years earlier, I got flak from my friends for "robbing the cradle" and he got flak from his friends for dating "that fat girl". But we recognized the truly important things in life. :wubu: 

Just gotta ask, though: you've just entered your 70th year (which means you're 69). If you were married as a 50 y.o., and recently celebrated 16 years of marriage, that's only 66! So what happened to those 3 "lost years"?


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## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 6, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> Works for us! I'm an accountant happily married to a nerdy engineer, looking forward to our silver anniversary next year. Although I married a younger man: I was 25 and he was 23. When we first met 5 years earlier, I got flak from my friends for "robbing the cradle" and he got flak from his friends for dating "that fat girl". But we recognized the truly important things in life. :wubu:
> 
> Just gotta ask, though: you've just entered your 70th year (which means you're 69). If you were married as a 50 y.o., and recently celebrated 16 years of marriage, that's only 66! So what happened to those 3 "lost years"?




Well, first of all, Sue - congrats on the silver. We hope to make it too - it's only another 8 1/2 years away. I'll be 77 by then, but - hey! - my dad made it to 99. I have another goal: to make it one second longer (at least) than my first marriage of 29+ years.

I admit that my math could use a bit of work. But I wasn't really an engineer, although I played one most of my life. I was a Physics & Math double major. Pretty good at math, but mediocre at arithmetic. And I don't remember your question being on the GRE - it would have been too hard for me.

There's an old joke with substantial basis in fact: "Know how to tell the difference between someone who went to Harvard and someone who went to MIT? The MIT grads can't spell and the Harvard grads can't count!"

But since you seem to be giving me a second chance, I'll try to fix the numbers. The current Mrs. Ho Ho and I first met in Jan. 1980 when she interviewed for a position in our group. We worked together as co-workers and partners until I left the company in 1986. We stayed friends after I left. I took another position in Massachusetts in late 1987. About a year later, Mrs Ho Ho (not her 'title' then) came to visit me, along with another old friend. 

During that visit, something happened. Nothing overt - just a change in the air, like that first scent of spring after a long winter. We were both aware of it, though we didn't know it quite yet. A week after she returned home, I realized that I was falling in love - an odd and uncomfortable experience, since the incest taboos which sometimes adhere to people in close working conditions were still clinging to us. I resolved to call her and warn her of this awkward turn of events. I fully expected that she would never want to see me again!

I steeled myself to make that fateful call. On the chosen day, November 25, 1988, I received a letter from her - shy, tentative, filled with the fear of rejection, but expressing pretty much the same experience and feelings that I had experienced.

Well, I couldn't get to the phone fast enough . . .
 
I'll skip a bit of history here and pick up the story by saying that we were married on May 25, 1990. For many reasons, the stars should have been against it, but somehow, they shone brightly and have continued to do so.

We celebrate both dates, exactly 1 year and 6 months apart. November 25 is the more important to us because that is our day of commitment. (Commitment is such a ponderous word. We didn't commit to anything. We were just two people who suddenly became 'us'.) On May 25, 1990, the judge gave us a piece of paper which made it all legal, but that morning, before the ceremony, we went very early to a local park. There is a Japanese Peace Garden with a zig-zag bridge. The legend is that, in crossing the bridge, the evil spirits get confused by the zig-zag and so are left behind. We exchanged rings made of yarn, grass and flowers and were just as married at that point as if we had been standing before the Throne of God. (Well, perhaps we were.)

Anyway, that's the story. You're right about my age. I completed 69 full years on Oct. 1 and am now in my 70th year. The rest of the math - well, you can do that. I don't think that there are any years missing - we lived every one of them.

I'll leave you with a fragment of an old song. "What will you do with the hours of your life? Love 'til you've loved them away - love 'til you've loved them away."


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## saucywench (Oct 6, 2006)

This story always makes me both wistful and hopeful each time I hear it, Ho Ho. There's something particularly poignant about it that speaks to me in ways that more conventional love stories don't. I just know that, if an older man such as yourself were to enter my life, I wouldn't hesitate to make a similar commitment. I doubt I could say that about a much younger man, though, but--stranger things have happened.  

Congratulations on your good fortune, which I hope carries you through the rest of your days.


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## TallFatSue (Oct 6, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> Well, first of all, Sue - congrats on the silver. We hope to make it too - it's only another 8 1/2 years away.


That's a pretty neat story, Ho Ho. Art & I have every intention of reaching our 50th anniversary too. A couple years ago my distant cousin Bill went through a nasty 3rd divorce, and Art & I agreed that our best case scenario is that we'll be in love forever, and our worst case scenario is we "could never break in another spouse, so we're in this for keeps." 

In retrospect, I don't remember Art & me ever making formal committments to each other, except of course at the actual wedding. He never got down on one knee and proposed, nor serenaded me with a ukulele in a canoe etc. We just kinda sorta evolved into thinking that being married to each other is the most natural thing in the world. Maybe it was the first time he gave me a full body massage, and I said there's no way he's getting away now! :smitten: 

We didn't want a particularly big wedding, but my mother sure did, and we let her have her way. It was fun to hear her brag, "I always knew Sue would marry her Mr. Right!" Um, Mom? Didn't you always say I was wayyyy too fat ever to find a good husband? Oh, right, that selective memory thing.


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## GeorgeNL (Oct 6, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> In retrospect, I don't remember Art & me ever making formal committments to each other, except of course at the actual wedding. He never got down on one knee and proposed, nor serenaded me with a ukulele in a canoe etc.



Being a nerdy engineer myself, I recognize that so very well. I think the good side of us nerds is that we're patient, creative, seldom angry and most of us are very huggable. But the weak site is, many of us are a bit insecure, shy even and when it come to romance, I think you as a woman have to take the initiative.

But I'm happy to see that women like you exist Sue! We nerds need a hug too.


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## mossystate (Oct 7, 2006)

I just now stumbled upon this thread, 2 minutes after the OP informed me in private that I am a "bitter, middle-aged fat woman like the rest who come here".I have a feeling he is wants to send a 'message' to all us single gals,or women who just choose not to have a piece of paper heralding their relationship with another human being.


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## SamanthaNY (Oct 7, 2006)

Report it to the Mods with a copy of that private message. Seeing as the OP was just allowed back in - such behavior is probably... unwise. Though not at all surprising.


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## Jane (Oct 7, 2006)

One night, at my house, there gathered up a group of men, and ME the lone female. We had been drinking a little beer when one of the men turned to me and said, "I can't believe you've never married. Why not?" 

I said, "Well, it could be that I've never met the right man or it could be that the right man just never asked me...but really, it's just that all of you are married and you're at my house. That says a lot about your marriages."

No one in that bunch ever asked me again.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 7, 2006)

saucywench said:


> This story always makes me both wistful and hopeful each time I hear it, Ho Ho. There's something particularly poignant about it that speaks to me in ways that more conventional love stories don't. I just know that, if an older man such as yourself were to enter my life, I wouldn't hesitate to make a similar commitment. I doubt I could say that about a much younger man, though, but--stranger things have happened.
> 
> Congratulations on your good fortune, which I hope carries you through the rest of your days.



You know how it is with us Old Folks. As our memories begin to fail, we still remember our old stories - we just forget who we have told them to, and how many times. After a while, the stories fade too, with only the most important still held close in mind and heart.

The story that you just read is my story, one of the few remaining, and by far the most important. So when you read it over and over again, just smile, roll your eyes, and say - to quote Ronald Reagan - "There he goes again."

Glad you enjoyed it, though.

We live in a townhouse, part of an association. There are many here who are older than I am, by a decade or more, and many stories of old love - couples who have been married 60 years or more, and still happy. Widows and widowers who still lead active lives, but in two worlds, the present and the past. They, too, love to share the stories of their lives together and, listening to them, sometimes I feel like I'm in life college, taking Relationships 101. 

Whenever I feel like I have learned something about life and love, through my own experiences, I go and talk to one of them. And then I realize that we are just starting on our way.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 7, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> Art & I agreed that our best case scenario is that we'll be in love forever, and our worst case scenario is we "could never break in another spouse, so we're in this for keeps."
> 
> In retrospect, I don't remember Art & me ever making formal committments to each other, except of course at the actual wedding. He never got down on one knee and proposed, nor serenaded me with a ukulele in a canoe etc. We just kinda sorta evolved into thinking that being married to each other is the most natural thing in the world. Maybe it was the first time he gave me a full body massage, and I said there's no way he's getting away now! :smitten:



TFSue -

Mrs Ho Ho and I both agree on your best and worst scenarios.

We have a similar story about non-proposals. It seems that, one night when Mrs Ho Ho and I were courting by phone (still living in different states), I was sharing some poetic quote with her and said something like "Wouldn't it be neat to include that in our marriage vows?" History has it that there was a brief silence on her end before agreeing that it would indeed fit into our vows very nicely.

This was not a pre-meditated subterfuge on my part - my heart (and mouth) just running ahead of my mind. Something deep inside had it all worked out, and I had everything but the girl. But from that moment, I had her too (still do, and v.v.)

You used the word 'smitten'. My mother-in-law (who has yet to really figure us out) calls me 'besotted'. Well, I guess I am.


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## TallFatSue (Oct 8, 2006)

GeorgeNL said:


> Being a nerdy engineer myself, I recognize that so very well. I think the good side of us nerds is that we're patient, creative, seldom angry and most of us are very huggable. But the weak site is, many of us are a bit insecure, shy even and when it come to romance, I think you as a woman have to take the initiative.
> 
> But I'm happy to see that women like you exist Sue! We nerds need a hug too.


In retrospect, if Mr. Right hadn't practically fallen into my lap, who knows if I would have ever married? I sure didn't need a man to make my life complete, but there he was, and I had the sense to recognize he was indeed my soulmate. I also had the good sense (when he kept turning up to tell me his latest fat jokes) to brazenly kick him in the ass and triple-dare him to take me on a date and treat me like a lady. Now what do I have to show for it? 24 years of happy marriage, that's what. Although I'm deleriously happy as a married woman, I'd probably be just as happy as a single woman. On the other hand, my life probably wouldn't have taken so many happily bizarre twists and turns. Art & I went into this marriage with our eyes wide open, and our hearts followed. :smitten: 

Thank goodness Art has improved his approach to romance, but in retrospect he had nowhere to go but up. I remember when I was 20 and he was 18, I expressed a concern about being slightly older. He said it was perfect, because woman live slightly longer than men, so we'd probably die about the same time. After I spit my Pepsi all over him, he relaized that perhaps he should have phrased it differently. And during our legendary first date, I was so nervous I had the hiccups half the evening, and Art was transfixed watching my sizeable breasts bounce every 5 seconds. That's when he said that life would never be dull with me around, which wasn't the most romantic utterance, but I chose to interpret that he envisioned a good long compatible future together. However one side effect is that to this day, whenever I get the hiccups, Art wants to jump into the sack.  



Jane said:


> One night, at my house, there gathered up a group of men, and ME the lone female. We had been drinking a little beer when one of the men turned to me and said, "I can't believe you've never married. Why not?"
> 
> I said, "Well, it could be that I've never met the right man or it could be that the right man just never asked me...but really, it's just that all of you are married and you're at my house. That says a lot about your marriages."
> 
> No one in that bunch ever asked me again.


I overheard a similar conversation at a family reunion, when one of my female cousins was asked why she never married. However the pi&#232;ce de r&#233;sistance was when one of my more ignorant male cousins put his foot in his mouth: "If Sue can get married, surely you can get married." I was within earshot, and before I threw a lamp at his head, I said, "You have 60 seconds to explain yourself." Not that he had the most stellar marriage himself. He stammered and stuttered until one of my other cousins said, "What's the matter, Wally? Crap in your pants? Oh, on you it looks good." :doh: 

Too many people marry for the wrong reasons. Maybe they're pressured into it, or maybe some women just want to have a wedding that will be the envy of the city (but forgetting that, oh yeah, the groom comes home with me now). My distant cousin Bill is a prime example of a man who didn't care what a woman was really like, as long as she was *hot*. At our wedding, Bill congratulated my new husband Art on the whale he had just landed. Bill has yet to learn his lesson. "Gee, Bill, if it's your 3rd nasty divorce, maybe the problem is *you*!"

Anyway I think the key to a good long healthy marriage, at least in my case, is to marry your best friend. A torrid romance is well and good, but deep abiding affection lasts and lasts. :wubu:


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## Friday (Oct 9, 2006)

I find it odd that Grey concerns himself with the marital status of women here (or anywhere) since he claims to be happily married. 

Don't give up on the younger ones Saucy. A 29 yo man followed a 35 yo me home nearly 15 years ago. I thought he was nuts but our 14th wedding anniversary was last month. :happy:


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 9, 2006)

mossystate said:


> I just now stumbled upon this thread, 2 minutes after the OP informed me in private that I am a "bitter, middle-aged fat woman like the rest who come here".I have a feeling he is wants to send a 'message' to all us single gals,or women who just choose not to have a piece of paper heralding their relationship with another human being.




After all, it's pretty clever.

And if you discount the fact that reading this thread indicates that TallFatSue is married, TheSadienLinguist is 21 and at least half the people that post here are men, it would even be "accurate" [snark]


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Oct 9, 2006)

mossystate said:


> I just now stumbled upon this thread, 2 minutes after the OP informed me in private that I am a "bitter, middle-aged fat woman like the rest who come here".I have a feeling he is wants to send a 'message' to all us single gals,or women who just choose not to have a piece of paper heralding their relationship with another human being.



You say "bitter, middle-aged fat woman" like it's a bad thing.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 9, 2006)

saucywench said:


> This story always makes me both wistful and hopeful each time I hear it, Ho Ho. There's something particularly poignant about it that speaks to me in ways that more conventional love stories don't. I just know that, if an older man such as yourself were to enter my life, I wouldn't hesitate to make a similar commitment. I doubt I could say that about a much younger man, though, but--stranger things have happened.
> 
> Congratulations on your good fortune, which I hope carries you through the rest of your days.



With enough time, and a bit of luck, love comes . . .

This story appeared in one of our local papers. It is under copyright, so I will just leave a teaser here, and a link to the full story. I hope that you can read it, Saucy. You will find this poignant too.

Posted on Sun, Oct. 01, 2006

Love came along later in life
BY MOLLY MILLETT
Pioneer Press

Mabel Klosterboer wasn't ready to get married until she was 84.

"Three times, I considered proposals, but I had other things I wanted to do," says Mabel, now 85. "I wanted to travel and teach."

So, instead of saying "I do," Mabel saw the world. . . .

When Mabel finally slowed down in her 80s, she found widower Kermit Stenerson waiting for her. . . 

"As we said goodbye, Kermit held my hand. . . Mabel says. "And it was with that warm handshake that I thought, 'Maybe this could develop into something.' . . . So, when Kermit proposed, Mabel said yes.

You can read the full story here:
http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/15632185.htm


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## Spanky (Oct 9, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> Anyway I think the key to a good long healthy marriage, at least in my case, is to marry your best friend. A torrid romance is well and good, but deep abiding affection lasts and lasts. :wubu:



I can't agree more, TFS (btw Art is one lucky man!  ). We aren't really taught well about the seriousness of marriage, what it means, the true life committment. For me, it became a whole lot more serious with children. Any breaking of vows doesn't just hurt the partner, but the innocents who will bear the true pain through the most impressionable part of their lives. When one thinks about the true scope of that responsibility, I can say that there is no woman on the face of this earth who could break my marriage, save one. And that is my wife. 

But on behalf of all husbands, let's all say the Man's Prayer (Red Green Show):

"I am a man...
but I can change...
if I have to...
I guess."


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## saucywench (Oct 10, 2006)

Thanks for the link, Ho Ho; I did read the story in full and it was quite heartwarming.

It has always seemed in my nature to be more of an observer than a doer when it comes to engaging fully in the world around me. Mabel sounds like a woman who truly lives in the moment, and that is quite admirable and perhaps something I should aspire to.

A good friend once told me that it won't matter if I'm 85 when I meet the man of my dreams. If we have but one year together to know and experience the type of love for which I yearn before death takes one of us, it would have been well worth the wait. And I suppose that is true.

There was a similar story in my town. A librarian here at the medical school where I work, an unmarried woman in her 60s, met her husband a few years back. By all accounts they are quite happy together. 

On a side note, and only tangentially related, if you have never seen One, the movie, I highly recommend it. I see it will now be available on DVD, and I've got my order in.



Ho Ho Tai said:


> With enough time, and a bit of luck, love comes . . .
> 
> This story appeared in one of our local papers. It is under copyright, so I will just leave a teaser here, and a link to the full story. I hope that you can read it, Saucy. You will find this poignant too.
> 
> ...


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## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 10, 2006)

saucywench said:


> A good friend once told me that it won't matter if I'm 85 when I meet the man of my dreams. If we have but one year together to know and experience the type of love for which I yearn before death takes one of us, it would have been well worth the wait. And I suppose that is true.
> 
> There was a similar story in my town. A librarian here at the medical school where I work, an unmarried woman in her 60s, met her husband a few years back. By all accounts they are quite happy together.
> 
> On a side note, and only tangentially related, if you have never seen One, the movie, I highly recommend it. I see it will now be available on DVD, and I've got my order in.



Saucy -

Thanks for the tip on the film. We'll keep an eye out for it.

I have a similar story from among my own circle of friends. When I was in high school, some of formed an astronomy club, based at a local observatory which a former amateur had built and given to the local college when he died. (An aside: this was the Darling Astronomy Club, named for John Henry Darling, a Duluth harbor engineer who built it at the age of 70, in 1905. He used it regularly, summer and winter, until his death at age 95. Tough old sod!)

One of the other members was about ten years older than I. Over the years, we lost contact, but I looked him up a few years ago. His wife had passed away, and he had taken up with a former high school flame, at age 75. They had gotten together again while working on a brochure for their high school reunion. 

I talk to them regularly, and we get together for lunch when we are in Duluth. They never married, but have stayed together and are happy as clams. They are fierce dancers and hit the VFW every Friday night. I kid him that I can sometimes see a glow on the northern horizon on Friday nights, from the heat of their shoe soles. We joined in a few times, but frankly, can't keep up with them.

They have had more than that one year together. It's been close to ten years now. But I think they would have been happy just to have the last dance together.


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## GeorgeNL (Oct 10, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> In retrospect, if Mr. Right hadn't practically fallen into my lap, who knows if I would have ever married? I sure didn't need a man to make my life complete, but there he was, and I had the sense to recognize he was indeed my soulmate. I also had the good sense (when he kept turning up to tell me his latest fat jokes) to brazenly kick him in the ass and triple-dare him to take me on a date and treat me like a lady. Now what do I have to show for it? 24 years of happy marriage, that's what. Although I'm deleriously happy as a married woman, I'd probably be just as happy as a single woman. On the other hand, my life probably wouldn't have taken so many happily bizarre twists and turns. Art & I went into this marriage with our eyes wide open, and our hearts followed. :smitten:
> 
> Thank goodness Art has improved his approach to romance, but in retrospect he had nowhere to go but up. I remember when I was 20 and he was 18, I expressed a concern about being slightly older. He said it was perfect, because woman live slightly longer than men, so we'd probably die about the same time. After I spit my Pepsi all over him, he relaized that perhaps he should have phrased it differently. And during our legendary first date, I was so nervous I had the hiccups half the evening, and Art was transfixed watching my sizeable breasts bounce every 5 seconds. That's when he said that life would never be dull with me around, which wasn't the most romantic utterance, but I chose to interpret that he envisioned a good long compatible future together. However one side effect is that to this day, whenever I get the hiccups, Art wants to jump into the sack.
> 
> ...



This story brings a BIG smile on my face. Thank you for sharing Sue. I marked the last line, which explains it all I think.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 12, 2006)

saucywench said:


> Thanks for the link, Ho Ho; I did read the story in full and it was quite heartwarming.
> 
> It has always seemed in my nature to be more of an observer than a doer when it comes to engaging fully in the world around me. Mabel sounds like a woman who truly lives in the moment, and that is quite admirable and perhaps something I should aspire to.
> 
> ...



Saucy, and the rest of the contributors to this thread: Perhaps I should have left this thread to die a natural death, but another pair of stories appeared in our local paper which fit just too well to resist. Frankly, I hope that this thread stays alive as long as hope stays alive - and I hope that's forever.

Here are links to the stories.

Nov. 5, 2005:Invisible men
If John Senenfelder were sitting across a table from an eligible woman, this is what he would tell her: Gail Rosenblum
http://www.startribune.com/218/story/190596.html

11/11/2006 Invisible no more
Just over a year ago, John Senenfelder and Deb Casserly met for a cup of coffee at a Caribou in New Hope. This would hardly be newsworthy, except for one thing.
http://www.startribune.com/218/story/801970.html


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## Punkin1024 (Nov 12, 2006)

What sweet stories! I keep telling my 40 year old brother-in-law that he should never give up. Those stories are proof that love and romance are still very much alive. Thanks Ho Ho!

~Punkin


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## saucywench (Nov 13, 2006)

Ho Ho, I didn't want you to think that I had ignored you. I read the stories first thing yesterday morning. I will respond in PM when I am able. Thank you for your consideration.


Ho Ho Tai said:


> Saucy, and the rest of the contributors to this thread: Perhaps I should have left this thread to die a natural death, but another pair of stories appeared in our local paper which fit just too well to resist. Frankly, I hope that this thread stays alive as long as hope stays alive - and I hope that's forever.
> 
> Here are links to the stories.
> 
> ...


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## moonvine (Nov 13, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> Saucy, and the rest of the contributors to this thread: Perhaps I should have left this thread to die a natural death, but another pair of stories appeared in our local paper which fit just too well to resist. Frankly, I hope that this thread stays alive as long as hope stays alive - and I hope that's forever.
> 
> Here are links to the stories.
> 
> ...




I have to admit to being shallow, I guess. If I were still dating, I'd never consider dating a 57 year old who lived with his mother. If a guy still lives with his mother, he'd better be in school full time or under 24 or so. 

When I got to 40, I just gave up. I figure that all that time can be better spent doing something more productive than fruitlessly searching for a potentially acceptable partner. If I couldn't get a date at 38 or 39, why should I be able to get one now that I'm 40? I'm probably too old to procreate, and I don't have a sex drive to speak of, so really, why bother?


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## Jane (Nov 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I have to admit to being shallow, I guess. If I were still dating, I'd never consider dating a 57 year old who lived with his mother. If a guy still lives with his mother, he'd better be in school full time or under 24 or so.
> 
> When I got to 40, I just gave up. I figure that all that time can be better spent doing something more productive than fruitlessly searching for a potentially acceptable partner. If I couldn't get a date at 38 or 39, why should I be able to get one now that I'm 40? I'm probably too old to procreate, and I don't have a sex drive to speak of, so really, why bother?


I didn't date for 15 years, Moon, and found a sweetie at the age of 47. 

And a 57 year old living with his mother may be taking care of her. Oh, yeah, the 15 years not dating was raising son and taking care of elderly mother years.


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## moonvine (Nov 13, 2006)

Jane said:


> I didn't date for 15 years, Moon, and found a sweetie at the age of 47.
> 
> And a 57 year old living with his mother may be taking care of her. Oh, yeah, the 15 years not dating was raising son and taking care of elderly mother years.




Honestly I can't see myself dating a 57 year old. Maybe if I was 70?

So, the 15 years was by your choice and not because no one wanted to date you?


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## Jane (Nov 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Honestly I can't see myself dating a 57 year old. Maybe if I was 70?
> 
> So, the 15 years was by your choice and not because no one wanted to date you?


"Date" conveys a wide range of options. LOL

I certainly never gave any signals indicating I wanted to date anyone. I ran off several people who made overtures that they wanted to get to know me better, or changed it into friendship if that was an option.

Trust me, in those years, it was a mutual thing. I did nothing to attract, and saw nothing I was attracted to.


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## Rosie (Nov 13, 2006)

thislittlepiggy said:


> Good point, GeorgeNL ... why are these studies focused on women? Why didn't Newsweek in 1986 offer overblown statistics meant to frighten men that their marriage prospects were dire? I think Newsweek was incredibly irresponsible to print what it did in 1986. I'm sure many despaired based on their "study," and to come along twenty years after say "Oops!" doesn't make it all better.




Probably because there's still the attitude of women that don't marry being "old maids" while men who don't are just bachelors. It may be the 21st century but some ways of thinking are still a couple centuries behind.


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## moonvine (Nov 13, 2006)

Rosie said:


> Probably because there's still the attitude of women that don't marry being "old maids" while men who don't are just bachelors.



Hey, I prefer to refer to myself as a "spinster", TYVM.


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## Jane (Nov 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> So, the 15 years was by your choice and not because no one wanted to date you?


And thank you for this Moon....


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## TallFatSue (Nov 13, 2006)

Star Tribune said:


> Women have complained forever that at a certain age, or weight, or at the first sign of gray, they become invisible to men. But plenty of men say they experience the same painful thing. They say women are too picky, too judgmental, even hypocritical - plenty interested when you're already taken, but not worth a smile when you're available again.
> 
> Others say that only "bad guys" or hot guys get noticed. The law-abiding, the average-looking, the pot-bellied, the graying, might as well be wearing invisibility cloaks.


I never truly realized the full extent of the "women going ga-ga over hot men" phenomenon until it kinda hit me out of left field. One of my favorite authors is Denise Swanson ( http://www.DeniseSwanson.com ) who writes a pretty cool series of mysteries set in the Midwest. She came to a library in the Toledo area a few months ago during a book tour of Ohio, and after her lecture we got a nice big discussion going. It's great to see a successful supersize woman work a crowd (below is my pic of her in action). Her latest book is _Murder of a Real Bad Boy_, and the victim is a shady contractor who conned several women in town because he was so hot-looking that they fell for him, hook, line and sinker.

The sleuth in Denise Swanson's books is a large-size woman who is torn between two lovers. First of all, it's really cool to read about a fat woman with no shortage of boyfriends. Secondly, I was surprised that some of her other readers are verrrry opinionated about which guy her sleuth should end up with, to the point of several women having arguments in the audience. Sheesh, it's fiction! One lover is kinda dull and stiff, but he is stable, makes very good money, drives a Lexus and takes her to great restaurants. The other lover is a police chief with a mysterious past and a crazy ex-wife. Anyway, the leading lady had a spat with the dull but stable boyfriend, and so she starts dating the sexy but mysterious police chief. I'll bet at least 3/4 of the women in the audience said her sleuth should dump the dull boyfriend and go for the police chief because "he's so hot." Hey, I have hormones too, but lust alone does not a successful relationship make. My husband leaned over to me and said he thought that only men threw reason out the window when they see hot babes, but it looks like plenty of women fall for hot men or bad boys without really thinking too. Maybe that's why so many people get into bad marriages?

Thank goodness I married a nerdy engineer who is none too flashy but is a really great guy, nice and stable, and earns big bucks too. And thank goodness he fell in love with a strong-willed and opinionated obese woman like me. :smitten:


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 13, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> I never truly realized the full extent of the "women going ga-ga over hot men" phenomenon until it kinda hit me out of left field. One of my favorite authors is Denise Swanson . . .
> 
> Thank goodness I married a nerdy engineer who is none too flashy but is a really great guy, nice and stable, and earns big bucks too. And thank goodness he fell in love with a strong-willed and opinionated obese woman like me. :smitten:



Sue - reading your last paragraph, suddenly this bit of nonsense jumped into my head:

Jack Sprat, he liked 'em fat.
His wife, she liked 'em lean.
And so, between the two of them
They're one mean love machine!

Additional comment: I'm not a mystery fan, but Mrs. Ho Ho is. She is quite familiar with Denise. 

In times of yore, old married folks like us used to sit together in front of the fireplace in the evening, and share the stories of their day. Our equivalent is Mrs. Ho Ho seated at her laptop on the sunporch, while I hammer away on mine on the sofa. We are within calling distance, but the main thing we do is share e-mail, news items, and Dim threads. I can't always make out her words, but I can always hear her laughter.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 17, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> Additional comment: I'm not a mystery fan, but Mrs. Ho Ho is. She is quite familiar with Denise.


I know many Dimensions denizens prefer books that make fat a central issue, but I love the way Denise Swanson handles it. At the talks she's given in Ohio and Michigan, I've noticed that many other fat women love it too. Yes she's fat and so is her leading lady, and yes sometimes her weight complicates her life, but mostly it's perfectly all right. After her formal talk last August I saw several fat women clustered around her ("Hey, it's a group of fat women! I'll bet they're talking about something good!") so I joined in, just in time to hear one say something like "Thank you for featuring a full-figured woman. I love it. I have always been overweight, and I now have an excellent role model for self-confidence. It is delightful that Skye has two men who want her." Swanson said she was really glad to hear that, because she was always fat too, but she never let that stand in her way, and one of the things she wanted to convey is that a woman can be be attractive and desirable at any size.  

I also got the impression from these talks that too many fat girls and women believe the garbage that their families and friends heap on them: if you're fat, then you range from less than perfect to downright worthless. My mother told me that too, and I believed her for years, but finally in high school I rebelled and said, "Oh yeah? Well, I'll show you!" In my rebellious youth I became just vain enough to carry my fat proudly as a symbol of my independence, and I honestly believed that more than a few men would find me attractive, fat or no fat. Maybe one reason I began to see cracks in her criticisms was that my father was very supportive of me. Try as she might, my mother could never persuade him that my obesity was one of the greatest evils ever visited upon womankind. :doh: Finally, after years of my mother telling me I was way too fat ever to find a good husband, lo and behold I found my Mr. Right when I was 20. Art found my personality so intriguing that he fell in love with my entire package. We dated for 5 years, and my mother couldn't believe that Art found me desirable, and told me not too get my hopes up. "What? You mean someday he'll suddenly notice that I'm obese?" I don't know what was more fun to watch at my wedding: my mother's pride at being mother of the bride, or her finally having to admit she was just plain wrong.  

All of this is from my own very narrow experience in the dating scene, which was complicated because it was during those few hellish years known as the disco late 1970s! I dated when I was young, found a great guy and exited the dating pool. But of the women who find love only late in life, or never find love at all, I wonder how much is due to a chronic shortage of Mr. Rights, and how much is due to lack of self-esteem sending out bad vibes to prospective Mr. Rights. Is self-confidence, or a lack thereof, a self-fulfilling prophecy?


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## Adrian (Nov 18, 2006)

XTallFatSue said:


> too many fat girls and women believe the garbage that their families and friends heap on them: if you're fat, then you range from less than perfect to downright worthless.


Other than Dimensions and BBW Magazines, what other mass media presents BBWs in a positive light? So much of the world around you is telling BBWs that they are less human to one extent or another, because they are larger than many other women, it is difficult to have a positive image of ones self.




TallFatSue said:


> In my rebellious youth I became just vain enough to carry my fat proudly as a symbol of my independence
> I honestly believed that more than a few men would find me attractive, fat or no fat.


Your confidence in yourself is 'very' uncommon!



TallFatSue said:


> my mother couldn't believe that Art found me desirable


My mother could not understand why I found only BBW's attractive? I found it amusing around 1995, I did the calculations on my girlfriends height versus weight. What I found the each girlfriend was heavier (pounds per inch of height!) than her predecessor. Their ranged in height/weight ratio from;
Ht. _____ Wt. ___ Ratio
5'-4" ___ 180 ___ 2.73
5'-1" ___ 175 ___ 2.86
5'-5" ___ 220 ___ 3.38
5'-8" ___ 240 ___ 3.53

their weight per inch of height increased.
[Gawd I love math!]



TallFatSue said:


> I dated when I was young, found a great guy and exited the dating pool.
> But of the women who find love only late in life, or never find love at all, I wonder how much is due to a chronic shortage of Mr. Rights,
> how much is due to lack of self-esteem sending out bad vibes to prospective Mr. Rights.
> Is self-confidence, or a lack thereof, a self-fulfilling prophecy?


I feel it is a combination of both. It is more difficult to love someone who doesn't love thereself.
The percentage of men who are serious about relationships and just playing the field in today's contemporary society is not high enough for there to be enough men for each BBW.
The number of women in this country is greater than the number of men. The number of men (percentage wise) who prefer BBWs/SSBBWs is far smaller than the number of BBWs who want a serious long term relationship of one type or another.

Adrian


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 18, 2006)

Adrian said:


> The number of men (percentage wise) who prefer BBWs/SSBBWs is far smaller than the number of BBWs who want a serious long term relationship of one type or another.
> 
> Adrian



Sue has said in previous posts that her husband was not an FA prior to meeting her, that his interest was in her, in particular, not in finding a BBW. There have been several discussions about whether or not BBW's and BHM's prefer dating FA's. Some say they would rather a man like them for THEM and not their size, and some say they prefer not dating FA's because they worry about the FA's being more interested in their body size/shape than in them.

So not only do larger people sometimes prefer dating those who don't self identify as FA's, but sometimes non-FA's find themselves surprised that they have become intrigued by a larger person.


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## Adrian (Nov 19, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> Sue has said in previous posts that her husband was not an FA prior to meeting her, that his interest was in her, in particular, not in finding a BBW


I realize this but, thrust of my point is most men, especially young do have a definite preference in aspects of a potential mates appearance/size. Most men will accept a more dynamic range of physical features than they prefer though.
In my sixty-two years, from the depths of ghettos, to engineering rooms or, professional associations..... I have met less than a half dozen men who profess to have no real preference in a woman's size/physical features. I have met more men who have a preference for other men than those who have no preference for a women's size.



LoveBHMS said:


> There have been several discussions about whether or not BBW's and BHM's prefer dating FA's. Some say they would rather a man like them for THEM and not their size


But, isn't that true for a fair percentage of women, not just BBWs?

Men and women approach the same intersection from different streets, so to speak. Once at the intersection each person will describe what they see as accurately as they but the descriptions will be different. Their perspectives are different!

Adrian


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## TallFatSue (Nov 22, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> Sue has said in previous posts that her husband was not an FA prior to meeting her, that his interest was in her, in particular, not in finding a BBW.


Many a time Art has said he's amazed that despite his previous preference for thin girls, he fell in love with the fattest girl he ever met. He's also extremely glad he did, and I second that motion. If Hollywood could ever learn to treat fat women in a positive manner, our romance would make a cool screwball comedy. Art was soooo clueless about how to deal with all this fat, but by golly he learned. This ranged from "Um, Art, there's no way I'll fit in that chair" to "Yes, Art, you can go right ahead and squeeze my fat." :smitten:


Adrian said:


> I realize this but, thrust of my point is most men, especially young do have a definite preference in aspects of a potential mates appearance/size. Most men will accept a more dynamic range of physical features than they prefer though.


Some of my coworkers fit the stereotypical "hot babe" image and say they're sick of being considered only as arm candy for drooling men. One or two have even said they envy me, because they know Art sure didn't judge me solely by my appearance (Wha...??? Um, okay, I'll take that as a compliment). The big reason I've never joined NAAFA is I didn't particularly want men to slobber over me either. When you get right down to it, a preference for thin or fat women is probably learned. After all, we fat women were the height of fashion in Western society until the early 1900s (like this line in the song _If I Were a Rich Man:_ "I see my wife looking like a rich man's wife with a proper double-chin"), and our genetically-programmed preferences couldn't have changed that fast. We're still esteemed in many other cultures. Maybe Art is just a special case because he could unlearn one set of ideals and learn to love my fat. Just to be on the safe side, though, methinks he needs frequent refresher courses, in the form of encouraging him to give me a full-body massage every evening. Oh, the sacrifices I make in the name of fat acceptance.


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## moonvine (Nov 22, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> But of the women who find love only late in life, or never find love at all, I wonder how much is due to a chronic shortage of Mr. Rights, and how much is due to lack of self-esteem sending out bad vibes to prospective Mr. Rights. Is self-confidence, or a lack thereof, a self-fulfilling prophecy?



Not at all. There are an awful lot of thin women with crappy self-esteem who have no problem finding men. Men are willing to overlook a lot of things for the body type they prefer. 

I have fabulous self-esteem, have had two *very* brief relationships within the past 10 years, and haven't had a date in well over a year. Got sick of looking and quit - it just isn't important enough to me to expend the amount of time I was expending for no reward. Being an introvert has its problems, but overall I'm glad to be one. If I were one of those people who had to be around people constantly, I'd be miserable.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Honestly I can't see myself dating a 57 year old. Maybe if I was 70?



I AM 70 (or at least, in my 70th year, and I wouldn't date a 57 year old either.  Especially since Mrs. Ho Ho is 48.

(Y'know? I think the devil made me write that.)


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## saucywench (Nov 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> ... If I were one of those people who had to be around people constantly, I'd be miserable.


My former best friend was like that. When I spent two weeks with her a year ago, I got real-time knowledge of what her life was like. She didn't seem content to have just me around. She had "friends" dragging themselves, their children, their pets to her house at all hours. If no one was visiting, she would be on the phone constantly. She would hang up from talking with one only to dial another--or her phone would always be ringing.

I can't live that way. I can't even be _around_ someone who lives that way. I'd rather be the recluse that I'm becoming than to be so desperate for human contact that I make no distinctions or discriminations on who my "friends" are.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 22, 2006)

saucywench said:


> I can't live that way. I can't even be _around_ someone who lives that way. I'd rather be the recluse that I'm becoming than to be so desperate for human contact that I make no distinctions or discriminations on who my "friends" are.



Saucy - You might agree with Cyrano on that one! You will find the entire scene at the link below this quote:

Cyrano:
Watching you other people make friends everywhere-- as a dog makes friends! I mark the manner of these canine courtesies and think: "My friends are of a cleaner breed; Here comes, thank God, another enemy!"

http://www.trixiepixgraphics.com/misc_stories/cyrano.html


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## Adrian (Nov 23, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> When you get right down to it, a preference for thin or fat women is probably learned.


I think you have something there. When I think back as early as I can remember, BBWs were in my life -mother, grandmother, aunts, neighbors, etc.



TallFatSue said:


> Maybe Art is just a special case because he could unlearn one set of ideals and learn to love my fat.


Yes, he is special and I doubt he 'unlearn' any ideas. More likely what he learned accomodated women of various sizes.



TallFatSue said:


> Just to be on the safe side, though, methinks he needs frequent refresher courses


That is why married men go to heaven, what they endure here on earth!

Happy Thanksgivings -Adrian


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## TallFatSue (Nov 25, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> Maybe Art is just a special case because he could unlearn one set of ideals and learn to love my fat.





Adrian said:


> Yes, he is special and I doubt he 'unlearn' any ideas. More likely what he learned accomodated women of various sizes.


I beg to differ. He wan't an FA then, but he sure is now! It's kinda funny to watch when thin women try to flirt with him. Are they ever barking up the wrong tree! Maybe one advantage of being married to an engineer is that I know he really can "unlearn" one set of ideas and relearn another. That's how engineers work. Learning to love my fat was simply the logical thing to do, if I do say so myself.  


TallFatSue said:


> Just to be on the safe side, though, methinks he needs frequent refresher courses, in the form of encouraging him to give me a full-body massage every evening.





Adrian said:


> That is why married men go to heaven, what they endure here on earth!


Endure? Yeah, Art says that if he has to endure me every day, then he's already in heaven. What a smooth talker! :smitten:


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## GeorgeNL (Nov 25, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> I beg to differ. He wasn't an FA then, but he sure is now! It's kinda funny to watch when thin women try to flirt with him. Are they ever barking up the wrong tree! Maybe one advantage of being married to an engineer is that I know he really can "unlearn" one set of ideas and relearn another. That's how engineers work. Learning to love my fat was simply the logical thing to do, if I do say so myself.



I love your positive attitude Sue, as well as I'm happy to see there are women that like engineers. 
It is absolutely true, we engineers work like that, we have to! If the laws of physics differ from our opinion, we have to adjust our opinion. But I have some strong doubts if I could unlearn my preference for BBW. I've got an old study mate who for a long time only looked at thin women, until he dated a BBW. Actually he was drunk when he settled that date, but sportive enough to take her out. Since that night, he never ever looked at thin women again. Now is happily married to a nice BBW. 

I llike to add that the number of FAs amongst engineers is amazingly high. I work in an office, with about 35 engineers, while 7 are FAs.


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## chubscout (Nov 25, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> Saucy, and the rest of the contributors to this thread: Perhaps I should have left this thread to die a natural death, but another pair of stories appeared in our local paper which fit just too well to resist. Frankly, I hope that this thread stays alive as long as hope stays alive - and I hope that's forever.



Some nice posts on this thread. Regardless of the OP's true intentions, his stated intention seems to have come to fruition once everyone got past the defensive, skeptical and sarcastic responses. People need to focus on the message, not the messenger.

As for you George, I've seen your picture on another thread here, and you are a good-looking, well-educated guy with a good job. To sum it up, big-time eligible bachelor, so quit griping about how hard it is to find a good woman and get out there (and don't think too much).


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## Adrian (Nov 26, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> I beg to differ. He wan't an FA then, but he sure is now!


Is it that he truely loves you and you only or does he find BBWs/SSBBWs attractive in general?



TallFatSue said:


> It's kinda funny to watch when thin women try to flirt with him. Are they ever barking up the wrong tree!


My wife finds that amusing also. I can love a thin woman as a daughter, a daughter in-law, etc. but, not as a wife/lover.



TallFatSue said:


> an engineer is that I know he really can "unlearn" one set of ideas and relearn another. That's how engineers work.
> 
> 
> GeorgeNL said:
> ...


It is more of a case of adapting to new ideas and concepts rather than unlearning. As one who spent his career in "design layout" of micro circuits, unlearn is far less accurate than adjust and or evolve.
Technology advances and one must evolve as a 'technologist' in order the progress forward. Each time there is a major change in the way engineering is done, there is a finite percentage of engineers who are not able to make the transition and withdraw or drop out of the occupation.




GeorgeNL said:


> I love your positive attitude Sue


Gawd..... it is a breath of fresh air!!!!!

Adrian


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## GeorgeNL (Nov 26, 2006)

Adrian said:


> It is more of a case of adapting to new ideas and concepts rather than unlearning. As one who spent his career in "design layout" of micro circuits, unlearn is far less accurate than adjust and or evolve.
> Technology advances and one must evolve as a 'technologist' in order the progress forward. Each time there is a major change in the way engineering is done, there is a finite percentage of engineers who are not able to make the transition and withdraw or drop out of the occupation.



Adrian, it seems we work (or worked) in the same industry. I design analog circuits (DAC's, amplifiers, DC-DC converters, etc.), and work with layout designers that create the layout for me. 
You are certainly right, when it comes to technology, it is a matter of adapting, and most of the changes are indeed technonogy chances. But nowadays we do sometimes run into physical problems that work differently then we thought they did. So we had to throw our former ideas over board. I think of mechanisms like hot electrons that cause gate current, flicker noise in sub-threshold region (ok ok, all MOS related problems). 

I think, the basic characteristic most of us engineer share is: we're used to making errors. That sounds like we're bad engineers, but that's not what I mean. With each new innovation, we always run into new problems (or challenges) that we overlooked, due to a lack of experience. But many engineers have the patience to do things over and over again, until they finally got it right. If it went wrong for eight times, because you didn't grasp a failure mechanism interely, then a good engineer takes a deep breath and digs deeper to figure out what is going wrong. I think that is really something typical in the personality of many engineers, we do not loose our temper easily.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 27, 2006)

GeorgeNL said:


> With each new innovation, we always run into new problems (or challenges) that we overlooked, due to a lack of experience. But many engineers have the patience to do things over and over again, until they finally got it right. If it went wrong for eight times, because you didn't grasp a failure mechanism interely, then a good engineer takes a deep breath and digs deeper to figure out what is going wrong. I think that is really something typical in the personality of many engineers, we do not loose our temper easily.



George - for us old engineers, it even works that way in marriage. For 29 years, I was told constantly that I 'got it wrong'. Now, on the second try, Mrs Ho Ho tells me that I've pretty much got it right this time.

But I've had one hell of a good teacher!


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## TallFatSue (Nov 28, 2006)

A little slice of life: Art & I went to a niece's wedding on Saturday. During the reception, another niece who was married last April came over and sat with us for about half an hour. At one point she complained about her husband, after only 7 or 8 months of marriage. Just the usual stuff, like he never cleans up around the house. She said, "Gee, Sue, you and Art are so good for each other. I wish I could be like you." Ya coulda knocked me over with a feather, but I recovered enough to say, "Well, first you'd need to gain about 300lb." My niece asked how she could make her husband do his share of the household chores. So I hazarded a guess, "You could try withholding sex for a while." Just then everyone else at our table suddenly found our conversation extremely interesting. "Art has kept our house spotless for 25 years." Then I overheard one cousin whisper to another, "Sue probably weighs over 400lb and I bet she has a better sex life than I do." Once the band got going, Art & I hit the dance floor for a few songs, until my feet gave out. Interesting that only a few other men danced with their wives.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 29, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> My niece asked how she could make her husband do his share of the household chores. So I hazarded a guess, "You could try withholding sex for a while." Just then everyone else at our table suddenly found our conversation extremely interesting. "Art has kept our house spotless for 25 years." . . . Art & I hit the dance floor for a few songs, until my feet gave out. Interesting that only a few other men danced with their wives.



TFSue -

Normally, I find myself in complete accord with your comments, largely (no pun intended) because there are seemingly so many similarities between you and Art, and Mrs Ho Ho and I. I have a feeling that your 'withholding' comment was very much tongue-in-cheek, but around here, withholding ANY form of affection or contact is simply not in our vocabulary. Sex? Well - I am getting on in years, y'know! But the hugs and kisses abound! When things get tough and we each have way more to do than we can handle, one will say "Somebody needs a hug" and we go at it right there and then. Arms and hands do all sorts of wonderous things, but their best and highest use is for hugging.

I wrote a bit of doggerel a while back for Mrs Ho Ho's amusement which explains how the housework gets done here:

"In our house, the work's done by brownies.
We pay them with hugs and with kisses.
We leave them* around 
where they* will be found,
And the brownies do laundry and disses.

We're so glad the brownies chose our house,
Though there don't seem to be very many.
But they get the work done
And still seem to have fun,
And their names are [Ho Ho & Mrs Ho Ho**]

*refers to the hugs and kisses
**had to disguise our names, but Mrs Ho Ho's rhymes with 'many'.

I do envy your ability to dance together. We have tried off and on for years - all sorts of styles - and the best we can do is stand in a dark corner of the ball room, arms around each other, swaying back and forth - which ain't all that bad!


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## GeorgeNL (Dec 2, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> George - for us old engineers, it even works that way in marriage. For 29 years, I was told constantly that I 'got it wrong'. Now, on the second try, Mrs Ho Ho tells me that I've pretty much got it right this time.
> 
> But I've had one hell of a good teacher!



Yeah, well I follow the manual. According to this book, step one is learn to become a good friend. I'm still learning, but making progress. It's already such a big pleasure, that I don't even need step two. The only tricky thing is that you might enter the next step without even realizing.....


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## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 2, 2006)

GeorgeNL said:


> Yeah, well I follow the manual. According to this book, step one is learn to become a good friend. I'm still learning, but making progress. It's already such a big pleasure, that I don't even need step two. The only tricky thing is that you might enter the next step without even realizing.....



Yeah, I have to agree with you on that, GeorgeNL. Your genes, your hormones, the desires of the body are the 'horse' that 'you' ride. Normally, that old horse plods placidly along, while you study the manual. But if the old horse gets near the barn and smell the oats (or a filly on the other side of the fence) then, hang on brother! The pages of that manual will be flying every which way, and you'll be grabbing the reins, hanging on for dear life!


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## Adrian (Dec 2, 2006)

Yes, George technologist of all types must evolve as well as other endeavors in life. The problem is that techologist it is not an option not to evolve at the first possible opportunity. You are on the cutting edge of doing something to be more efficient is what 'we' are all about, and when you no longer want to have to change anymore, it is passed time to get another profession.
When you are young and are proving yourself, you have plenty of drive. After twenty years you have lots of experience, you can live with your faults. Unfortunately, due to changes in the way things are done today, much of your experience is no longer relevant! Plus your employer wants someone with the drive you used to have. I will never forget an article in "ELECTRONIC DESIGN Magazine" on this topic in late 1966 or early 1967 entittled, "Wanted Engineer With Twenty Years Experience -Older Men Need Not Apply!"

My first circuit P-channel MOS was a twenty bit shift register, (a delay type circuit). It had approximated 168 transistors, the chip was a little less than one-tenth of an inch on each side, and we wondered how much more complex could it get! (SEE NOTE) My first memory circuit (in 1968) was a 64-bit RAM! (NOT 64K bits or 64M bits) My first ROM (in 1970) was 512 bits, marketing and sales people had to educate the world in how to benefit from using these circuits. The concept of a chip that contains over one hundred million transistors (like the latest Intel chips) seemed impossible.
I was the worlds first Black "layout design draftsman" back in August of 1966! I worked for the first all MOS company and I knew who had worked at the few other micro-circuit companies.

After reading your post, I started thinking how things have changed. I remembered back in October I went to a birthday party for one of my grandchildren and while there I saw a "Tickle Me Elmo TMX" for the first time, I was in total awh.

I use the search engine "Dogpile", videos for Tickle Me Elmo TMX. This just one video that illustrates my point about advancement. The inexpensive electronics required to make this would have seen virtually impossible when I started in August of 1966. These videos show only a short portion of what this toy does. The "Tickle Me Elmo TMX" not only falls down in laughter (frontward and backward) but, rolls over because he is laughing so hard. The entire sequence is three to four minutes long.
http://www.selfcasttv.com/Selfcast/playVideo.do?ref=s/84/155 OR,
http://keyetv.com/video/[email protected]

I only wish the auto companies could be more efficient inproducing their products like the micro-circuit industry. Where the performance gets better and better while the cost keeps getting less!!!
NOTE:
Attached is a picture of the first chip I laid out back in October of 1966.

Adrian 

View attachment MyFirstCircuit_1.jpg


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## TallFatSue (Dec 3, 2006)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> TFSue -
> 
> Normally, I find myself in complete accord with your comments, largely (no pun intended) because there are seemingly so many similarities between you and Art, and Mrs Ho Ho and I. I have a feeling that your 'withholding' comment was very much tongue-in-cheek


Right you are!  Anyone who knows me even slightly, realizes that I try to defuse tense situations with humor. I'm also a firm believer in positive motivation. So, in the context of our conversation, my comment got a big laugh at our table. Art even helped it along with a perfectly-timed faux wimper! Are we a well-matched couple or what? Unfortunately the band drummer to didn't play a rim shot, but that probably would have been overkill anyway.

However in the past week I've been kinda scared by a couple PMs and e-mails I received from men on this board who were absolutely outraged that I would make such a statement. Geeze Louise, we must have some tightly-coiled springs amongst us! One of my cousins is like that, so I need to be verrrry careful what I say in jest around her, or else she might fly off into some pretty impressive fireworks.  

Methinx I'd better lay low for a while, until the heat is off.  

Sue

PS. I'm also a little bemused that this topic about marriage has morphed into a technical discussion of microchips. Whaaa...? Even at his most romantic, Art has never serenaded me with a technical discussion of electronics. (WARNING: THE PRECEDING STATEMENT WAS A JOKE!  )


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## Adrian (Dec 4, 2006)

What is it Sue, you don't believe micro-circuits can evoke a passion like marriage can? Before there were geeks or nerds..... there were us "transistor heads!" A lot of good women love men like this, even my wife! LOL

Adrian


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## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 5, 2006)

Adrian said:


> What is it Sue, you don't believe micro-circuits can evoke a passion like marriage can? Before there were geeks or nerds..... there were us "transistor heads!" A lot of good women love men like this, even my wife! LOL
> 
> Adrian



Adrian -

Even I do not have the brass to post the same story twice in the same thread, but if you look back toward the beginning of the thread, you will find my post with the above title (Statistics and aggregates.). This is the story of romantic passion between STATISTICIANS, for gad sakes. Could anything be more nerdy, less passionate and bloodless than that? Well, follow the thread down a few more posts and you will see the awful truth.

Micro-circuits? Transistor heads? Faugh! How about tube-heads, or even crystal-set heads? My career wound in and out around all sorts of computers, starting with an IBM 650. If you put together all the computers I have ever used, you wouldn't have the power of my wife's I-Pod.

I've been retired for some years. I'm a house husband now - domestic engineer, if you will. I didn't quite go from vacuum tubes to vacuum cleaners, but my career spans both.


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## Paul Fannin (Dec 6, 2006)

I hope to get married again someday. Speaking for myself, I cannot imagine life's fulfillment without it. To me, marriage offers the highest happiness to which a man can aspire in this life, greater than the riches of this world.


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## GeorgeNL (Dec 8, 2006)

Adrian said:


> After reading your post, I started thinking how things have changed. I remembered back in October I went to a birthday party for one of my grandchildren and while there I saw a "Tickle Me Elmo TMX" for the first time, I was in total awh.
> 
> I use the search engine "Dogpile", videos for Tickle Me Elmo TMX. This just one video that illustrates my point about advancement. The inexpensive electronics required to make this would have seen virtually impossible when I started in August of 1966. These videos show only a short portion of what this toy does. The "Tickle Me Elmo TMX" not only falls down in laughter (frontward and backward) but, rolls over because he is laughing so hard. The entire sequence is three to four minutes long.
> 
> ...



WOW, that chip micrograph looks almost like a printed circuit board, very very nice. I'm indeed also a "transistor head", really thinking in transistors. Often only CMOS, but for high speed analog I can use a bipolar process as well. Bipolar are still the best transistors we have, I think, but expensive unfortunately. I work at an office of National Semiconductor, which you probably know very well. It's headquarters are close to your home. 

Technology advances fast indeed, I still have the drive to try to stay ahead, but I know as we get older, a day will come that I can only follow. At the moment though I really love this work. 

You're absolutely right, if car industry would have developed like electronic industry, it would look very different. Though now the time has come we switch from gasoline to different energy resources, I think a revolution in car industry is required.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 16, 2006)

saucywench said:


> Ho Ho, I didn't want you to think that I had ignored you. I read the stories first thing yesterday morning. I will respond in PM when I am able. Thank you for your consideration.



And YET another 'how we met' story . . .this one cribbed from our local Star/Tribune. I'm posting a fragment and a link to the rest of the story (copyrights, y'know). Access is free

"But the best of show, hands-down, goes to Emily Lodine, 51, and Gary Overgaard, 54, of tiny Magnolia, in southwestern Minnesota. In 1992, the two were seated together on an airplane. Overgaard, a farmer heading to Denmark to visit a sprayer factory, had smashed all 6-foot-7 of himself into the middle seat. Worse, he quickly learned that "that broad" sitting next to him was an opera singer from Chicago heading to London for auditions. He turned to his buddy sitting in the window seat and mumbled, "This is going to be the worst flight of my life."

http://www.startribune.com/459/story/861186.html


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## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 8, 2007)

grey1969 said:


> In early 1986, a demographic study from a team of Harvard and Yale researchers, who looked at the odds of women getting married at various ages, was published. . . .
> 
> "Statistically, people who marry at much higher-than-average ages don't have lower odds for divorce. But some experts are starting to think that later-in-life marriages may have better chances of survival." . . .



Hello All -

Once again, our local paper has printed an article which fits this thread, "Late Life Love" It is both copyrighted and rather lengthy. I'm posting a link here, and just a bit of the text. If you can't access it via the link, PM me and I'll get the text to you.

http://www.startribune.com/218/story/1021562.html

********************************************************

Last update: February 23, 2007  5:27 PM
Late life love
Older couples find that love comes when they aren't looking for it and share the stories of their late-in-life romance.

By Warren Wolfe, Star Tribune
Even a decade ago, Gerry Mooers and Dick Thomas might have been too young to fall in love.

"We are so different. If I were much younger, I doubt I would have seen how wonderful Dick is," said Mooers, 76. "Sometimes it takes the seasoning of age to help you get past surface stuff. ... What's really important is loving and being loved."

Mooers and Thomas, 73, are among 22 couples who fell in love later in life and described their reinvigorated lives together to Twin Cities author Connie Goldman. They talked of finances, troubled family relationships and the joy of emotional and sexual intimacy.

Goldman, 76, tells the stories in her new book, "Late Life Love: Romance & Relationships in Later Years" (Fairview Press, $14.95). Goldman, who was a Minnesota Public Radio reporter and host of NPR's "All Things Considered" in Washington, D.C., has spent decades examining issues of aging. The book grew out of interviews with older people who kept describing new relationships -- and from Goldman herself, who fell in love with lawyer Ken Tilsen and moved to Hudson, Wis., to join him. . . .

Story continues at link ;
http://www.startribune.com/218/story/1021562.html


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## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 2, 2017)

It's been ten years since I read or posted to this thread. I should have been in bed hours ago (as Mrs Ho Ho, gently but firmly, just pointed out). I landed here while looking for an old "how we met" story (ours!) The magic date of November 25th, 1990 was, for us, our 'Day of Knowing" our what is more conventionally called an engagement. That story is on p.2 of this thread (post #38). 

We just celebrated our 29th Day of Knowing and I was searching for my earlier description of that event - and got caught.

So many wonderful stories in this thread and others - in fact, on this whole board - and so many old-timers to tell them. I occurred to me to wonder how many of you were still around. I just celebrated (I wrote 'celebragged' and had to correct it) my 80th birthday. Mrs Ho Ho and I celebrate every anniversary, every birthday, and every day that we still wake up together.

I hope that you still are, or will be, in love!


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## quantumbits (Dec 17, 2017)

As the article says, men and woman are marrying at the highest ages ever in the US. This means fewer children. This fits what's expected of first world countries. Our replacement rate is 2.0. 2.1 is need to keep a population steady:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/curren...countries-declining-birth-rates/#74879d343641

I'ts nothing to worry about really since the US has plenty of immigration and its TFR is 2.0, meaning it's not perilous yet. Japan is at 1.44. There were fewer births in 2016 than ever in history:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-japan-fall-to-record-low-as-challenges-mount

Number of marriages in the US is also at a all-time low:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/12/14/barely-half-of-u-s-adults-are-married-a-record-low/

51% of all adults in the US are currently married. In 1960, it was 72%. It's projected to drop below half.

This goes into more detail about percent of woman never married in each age group:
https://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p70-125.pdf

For woman, in 1986 5.3% had never married by 40-44 years of age, compared to 14.1% in 2009. This means more woman are not marrying at higher ages. This is one factor in why men and woman are marrying at higher ages than ever in US history. This pushes hte range up for woman who'll marry but are delayed. Interestingly, at 55 and over, it was 4.5% in 1986 and 5.8% in 2009, meaning the percentage of woman who never marry is close to the same in 2009. This begs the question will the younger woman continue to eventually marry as hte older woman have?

For men, hte share is larger. In the link below, it shows for those 25 and over who've enver married, it's at an all-time high. This doesn't mean they'll never marry, but it's unprecedented:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/09/24/record-share-of-americans-have-never-married/


> After decades of declining marriage rates and changes in family structure, the share of American adults who have never been married is at an historic high. In 2012, one-in-five adults ages 25 and older (about 42 million people) had never been married, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of census data. In 1960, only about one-in-ten adults (9%) in that age range had never been married.1


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