# How/Why am I Expected to Hold it in?



## TwoSwords (Mar 3, 2017)

I was just looking online for other FA-centric venues, and came across a piece about dating fat girls, which specifically says; step 1; don't mention her weight.

This is not news. I've seen many other people online talking about how they feel uncomfortable when people talk about their weight, or it kills the mood, or it's not romantic, or whatnot, and I'm sorry, but... How can anyone live like that? How can you legitimately spend time talking to a person you find attractive, and *intend* to be romantic, without expressing any of the romantic feelings that you have? Isn't that a bit like going to the beach, then just kind of hanging out by the snack bar and leaving? It's it like going to the Grand Canyon, just to study the geological formation of one rock that you found there? Isn't it like going to a nature trail, just to read the sign at the entrance?

We go to these places because they're beautiful, and we get to immerse ourselves in that beauty and be inspired by it. We don't go there to ignore their beauty and sit in a corner.

I don't want to sit down and shut up! I want to laugh, cry, write poems, sonnets, tales of greatness and wonder, whenever blessed beauty strikes my eye! I want to express each incredible sensation of childlike wonder, volatile passion and painful loss that floods my immortal soul! Why, there are days when I almost feel like I could live my life without beauty, if only I could share what I do experience with one other person; wholly and completely!

I know the methods I've been using to repress my emotions in the past. It's how I can do my job without exploding. However, I don't know how other people manage it. What cork could possibly be strong enough to keep this genie imprisoned? In order to be acceptable, am I expected to change the one thing I can't change? Am I expected to express feelings other than my own, in order to be liked? How could I? Why would such a thing be expected? Why would anyone expect that? I've never asked anyone to lie to me about how they feel.

Some days, the feelings are so strong, that I simply have to let them out, and I don't see how I could live my life like Henry Bemis, with only the companionship of wholly unsympathetic and critical ears whenever my real emotions surfaced.

Am I just getting the wrong impression? Is the internet just cherry-picking opinion pieces for me to dislike, or is there some secret method of control and repression that I haven't discovered?


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## Tracii (Mar 3, 2017)

For one you need to realize the world doesn't revolve around you.
Maybe the girl you are dating isn't happy being fat did you ever think about that?
No would be my guess because you have a fat fetish.
Its OK to prefer fat women but women like to know you like them for who they are not just their size.
Here is an example say you had a huge wart on your nose that you hated but a girl you were dating loved your wart and that was all she talked about.
You would get tired of it pretty quickly I'm sure and you would feel like she just loves you for your huge wart and not for who you are. Get it?


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## TwoSwords (Mar 3, 2017)

Tracii said:


> Maybe the girl you are dating isn't happy being fat did you ever think about that?



Well, I don't see how this is going to be overcome if the topic isn't broached or broachable.



Tracii said:


> Its OK to prefer fat women but women like to know you like them for who they are not just their size.



A person is a rational animal, consisting of a union between soul and body. This excessive fixation on the purely non-physical half of ourselves doesn't feel a bit one-sided to you?



Tracii said:


> Here is an example say you had a huge wart on your nose that you hated but a girl you were dating loved your wart and that was all she talked about.
> You would get tired of it pretty quickly I'm sure and you would feel like she just loves you for your huge wart and not for who you are. Get it?



No. I don't get it. In that case, I could either learn to like more things about myself, or just have an honest talk with her, and if I can't live with the wart thing, I could just tell her that. It seems like the whole problem could be handled quite effectively and quickly, so long as both people were willing to work at it.

Plus, with the wart thing, you can always have it removed if you don't like it.

Also, I think there may be a hint of "false alternatives" to this last reply. Just because I can't live my life without expressing these extremely-strong emotions, doesn't mean I never talk about anything else. A good 90+% of the things I talk about are unrelated to that, though none of them are mundane.


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## Kristal (Mar 3, 2017)

Tracii said:


> For one you need to realize the world doesn't revolve around you.
> Maybe the girl you are dating isn't happy being fat did you ever think about that?
> No would be my guess because you have a fat fetish.
> Its OK to prefer fat women but women like to know you like them for who they are not just their size.
> ...


I believe that you should love the person, not their fat.

Sent from my A571VL using Tapatalk


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## TwoSwords (Mar 3, 2017)

Kristal said:


> I believe that you should love the person, not their fat.
> 
> Sent from my A571VL using Tapatalk



Me too. However, love is a voluntary decision, and I was talking about emotions.


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## Kristal (Mar 3, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Me too. However, love is a voluntary decision, and I was talking about emotions.


I believe that 'love' is a connection felt rather than a decision made.

Sent from my A571VL using Tapatalk


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## TwoSwords (Mar 3, 2017)

Kristal said:


> I believe that 'love' is connection felt rather than a decision made.
> 
> Sent from my A571VL using Tapatalk



Then it's not possible for there to be a "should" with regard to that kind of love. "Should" implies "can," and human beings have no control whatsoever over what their feelings are. They only get to express them, or repress them.


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## landshark (Mar 3, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I was just looking online for other FA-centric venues, and came across a piece about dating fat girls, which specifically says; step 1; don't mention her weight.



I think this is pretty good advice. At least at the start. If you are getting to know someone you really don't need to fixate on weight. For many women (and this is not limited to overweight women) weight is such a personal subject that if you go and blurt it out in the early stages of a relationship be prepared for her to cocoon. I learned this the hard way a few times in my early clumsy days as an FA. Thing is, you can express your appreciation for a woman's appearance easily enough without breeching this area and she'll figure out soon enough you like what you like. There are so many ways to do it without putting her on the defensive or making her suspicious. 



Kristal said:


> I believe that you should love the person, not their fat.



I made a very similar statement to OP a couple weeks ago in response to how I was able to adjust my preferences when my wife loses weight. 



TwoSwords said:


> No. I don't get it. In that case, *I could either learn to like more things about myself,* or just have an honest talk with her, and if I can't live with the wart thing, I could just tell her that. It seems like the whole problem could be handled quite effectively and quickly, so long as both people were willing to work at it.





TwoSwords said:


> Then it's not possible for there to be a "should" with regard to that kind of love. "Should" implies "can," and *human beings have no control whatsoever over what their feelings are*. They only get to express them, or repress them.



You've contradicted yourself here. Either you can learn to like something and we DO have control over feelings or we have no control. Personally I believe we do have control, and those who exercise that control generally are far more able to adjust to society and the realities around them. People may have less ability to control their initial reaction to something, but we do possess the ability to think critically and change the way we see something. In answer to your initial question you have a certain feeling, a preference or attraction for "fat" but when you really get into it and think about SOMEONE ELSE you may conclude going straight there may alienate her and therefore change not the way you feel about your preference but the way you feel about expressing it.


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## Tracii (Mar 3, 2017)

This is one reason I hate to respond to posts like this because all the OP wants to do is argue semantics.
Some have this "lofty" high brow attitude and fail to see that other people don't think the way they do and they have a hard time excepting it.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 4, 2017)

happily_married said:


> I think this is pretty good advice. At least at the start. If you are getting to know someone you really don't need to fixate on weight. For many women (and this is not limited to overweight women) weight is such a personal subject that if you go and blurt it out in the early stages of a relationship be prepared for her to cocoon. I learned this the hard way a few times in my early clumsy days as an FA. Thing is, you can express your appreciation for a woman's appearance easily enough without breeching this area and she'll figure out soon enough you like what you like. There are so many ways to do it without putting her on the defensive or making her suspicious.



This is why I included the word "how" in the topic title. I don't understand how it's possible to tone down the feelings sufficiently to avoid scaring people.



happily_married said:


> I made a very similar statement to OP a couple weeks ago in response to how I was able to adjust my preferences when my wife loses weight.



I remember that. The conclusion of the discussion was that we're different in this regard.



happily_married said:


> You've contradicted yourself here. Either you can learn to like something and we DO have control over feelings or we have no control.



Good point. I suppose I assumed people could learn to like new aspects of themselves because *I've* never disliked any aspect of myself. It was unfair of me to expect others to feel the same way.

That said, this just makes it all the more important for people to be open with each other, so that they can head off these problems right away, and if there's a deep incompatibility like this one, move on.



happily_married said:


> Personally I believe we do have control, and those who exercise that control generally are far more able to adjust to society and the realities around them.



We discussed this already. Just because you feel that you're able to do this, doesn't mean the same is true of everyone.



happily_married said:


> People may have less ability to control their initial reaction to something, but we do possess the ability to think critically and change the way we see something.



Oh, no question! However, this has absolutely no effect on how we feel, emotionally.



happily_married said:


> In answer to your initial question you have a certain feeling, a preference or attraction for "fat" but when you really get into it and think about SOMEONE ELSE...



Actually, I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been thinking all night about how I didn't sufficiently address this in Tracii's first reply.

When I say "I" or "me" in the opening post, I should have written "I and those like me." This isn't just about me. No problem is unique.



happily_married said:


> ...you may conclude going straight there may alienate her...



Why would that concern me? No one's even gone to the trouble of trying to avoid alienating me, and I put up with it every day, from every angle, in every discussion and every piece of media I observe.



happily_married said:


> and therefore change not the way you feel about your preference *but the way you feel* about expressing it.



This point, I have not conceded. If Shakespeare, Byron and Cummings are permitted to make and share beautiful works in praise of the kinds of beauty that they can appreciate, I see no reason why I can't do the same.

I've been dancing around this issue since I got here, but I really think it's the most important issue of all to resolve with regard to this topic. I've heard people say they want fat people to be treated like everyone else, but half the time, I get conflicting messages about this. It's like, on the one hand, people want fatness normalized, and on the other hand, they want the license to continue condemning those who don't feel ashamed of it.

I didn't come here to help rearrange the seats at the popular kids' table. I've never been at that table, and I've never wanted to be, because that's where people sit, who look down on the geeks and other unpopular folks. I don't think we should look down on anyone. We should look with admiration on those who do great work, and on people who commit crimes, we should have the mercy to help them overcome their evil, and to teach them what they need to know. When we can find loveliness in the world, we should draw strength and inspiration from it, and when we can't, we should move on, and let others see the loveliness that we can't see.

I belong to at least five groups that it's still considered acceptable to discriminate against in society, and that's why, even though I sometimes feel disgusted with people, I always try to treat them well. Are we really ready to accept legitimate differences as normal, or does our sentimental revulsion come first?


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## TwoSwords (Mar 4, 2017)

Tracii said:


> This is one reason I hate to respond to posts like this because all the OP wants to do is argue semantics.
> Some have this "lofty" high brow attitude and fail to see that other people don't think the way they do and they have a hard time excepting it.



Well, that's why I posted this topic. Help me understand this strange perspective of not accepting it, so that I can deal with it. Help me learn to identify the early signs of this predisposition against my feelings, whether or not it can be circumvented, and/or learn to avoid it entirely. To me, it seems like just another of the many strange prejudices that have contributed to a 34-year run of near-constant alienation by my peers, and although I'm more or less happy now, I'd like to know how others cope with this. How are we expected to deal with the fact that the world (and nearly everyone in it) just wants us to go away? Surely, if anyone can answer that question...


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## landshark (Mar 4, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> We discussed this already. Just because you feel that you're able to do this, doesn't mean the same is true of everyone.



I think it's important to review what I said here. The bolded part is what prompted your reply:



happily_married said:


> Either you can learn to like something and we DO have control over feelings or we have no control. *Personally I believe we do have control, and those who exercise that control generally are far more able to adjust to society and the realities around them. *



Basically what I am saying here is we have the ability to exercise self control. I believe we all have this ability to some extent. You reply is going to miss the mark because it comments on my belief in self control (i.e. "...you feel you are able to..." and the idea that not it does not apply to everyone. But whether or not someone "feels they are able to" exercise self control, in this case over their emotions, society expects it of them. And it's really not an unreasonable expectation when you consider respect for others is the driving engine behind this expectation. 



TwoSwords said:


> Oh, no question! However, this has absolutely no effect on how we feel, emotionally.



But it can and does. Emotional reaction may be a knee-jerk instinct but self control and rational thought step in and hopefully take control before decision time. Never make a decision (i.e. a decision to discuss a woman's weight) based on an emotional high or low. And I do think people have the ability to control emotional reaction, too. As a child did you ever spill a glass of water and react by breaking down and crying? My kids did. Now they don't. They've learned to control that emotional reaction and instead of crying about it they get a towel and clean it up. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near an adult who believes emotional reactions cannot be controlled because I'd expect a childish reaction to every little thing that didn't go his way. That's ridiculously unbecoming, but it's a logical endpoint to what you're suggesting.






TwoSwords said:


> When I say "I" or "me" in the opening post, I should have written "I and those like me." This isn't just about me. No problem is unique.



I get that, but everything we say to you applies across the board. Respecting others, self control, emotional maturity, the ability to control emotions in the interest of not hurting someone else...these are things that are good for others, not just you.



TwoSwords said:


> Why would that concern me? No one's even gone to the trouble of trying to avoid alienating me, and I put up with it every day, from every angle, in every discussion and every piece of media I observe.



Speaking of emotional maturity, or a lack thereof...

I thought you wanted to express an appreciation for something, not alienate someone. If you are not worried about alienating someone as you express your appreciation for it then I'd suggest that's indicative of a deeper character flaw. I don't think you're a bad person though, so I hope you'll rethink this part of your response as you move through life.



TwoSwords said:


> This point, I have not conceded. If Shakespeare, Byron and Cummings are permitted to make and share beautiful works in praise of the kinds of beauty that they can appreciate, I see no reason why I can't do the same.



Then take up writing or art. That's actually a better venue for your expression anyway because it's not directed at any one person. Write about how much you like something about a certain type of woman and post it somewhere people will read it. If you can paint or sketch, do that. Plenty of people post that kind of stuff right here on Dims and I'm sure you'd find an eager audience for it. 

That's a little different from going straight there with someone you're trying to meet, and I believe that was the context of your original question when you started the thread.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 4, 2017)

happily_married said:


> But whether or not someone "feels they are able to" exercise self control, in this case over their emotions, society expects it of them.



Society expects a lot of things that aren't reasonable. *Self* control isn't one of them, but *emotional* control, outside of repression, would be, and yes, I phrased my reply that way because I still don't fully believe that you really have the ability to mold your emotions as you claim. I think there's some other explanation, but I don't know you well enough to determine what that is.



happily_married said:


> And it's really not an unreasonable expectation when you consider respect for others is the driving engine behind this expectation.



I have tremendous respect for others... just not for their tendency to let their emotional revulsion get in the way.



happily_married said:


> But it can and does. Emotional reaction may be a knee-jerk instinct but self control and rational thought step in and hopefully take control before decision time.



Control? In the sense that they influence the decision, yes, but the emotions are still there, and even stronger for not having been expressed.



happily_married said:


> And I do think people have the ability to control emotional reaction, too. As a child did you ever spill a glass of water and react by breaking down and crying? My kids did. Now they don't.



I don't think this has to do with emotional control. I think most people just become desensitized to shocks like that.



happily_married said:


> I get that, but everything we say to you applies across the board. Respecting others, self control, emotional maturity, the ability to control emotions in the interest of not hurting someone else...these are things that are good for others, not just you.



They're not good for me at all, because people don't practice them when I'm around. Oh, these behaviors might be good for me *to practice,* (the jury's still out on that. I've been hurting more and more emotionally the longer I practice them, but that too could have benefits,) but I don't get to reap the benefits of others' respect to avoid hurting others, because others rarely seek to avoid hurting me.



happily_married said:


> I thought you wanted to express an appreciation for something, not alienate someone.



It's not my *goal* to alienate anyone. My goal is to find a venue to express this thing that's about to burst out of my chest like a chest-buster alien. I'm sick of being told I can't. If someone is alienated because they're not especially interested in what I have to say, then fine. I deal with that all the time. It's no big deal. If they're *repulsed,* or *hurt* because they feel alienated, then maybe they put too much stock in everyone being just like them, or maybe we should have some method of warning people about what hurts us as individuals, so that we can divide up into groups of people who *can* tolerate each other.



happily_married said:


> If you are not worried about alienating someone as you express your appreciation for it then I'd suggest that's indicative of a deeper character flaw.



Character flaws are related to *ethics,* not aesthetics. Is it somehow unethical to crave fairness?



happily_married said:


> Then take up writing or art.



Always.



happily_married said:


> Plenty of people post that kind of stuff right here on Dims and I'm sure you'd find an eager audience for it.



You might be right.



happily_married said:


> That's a little different from going straight there with someone you're trying to meet, and I believe that was the context of your original question when you started the thread.



Straight there? Certainly not. These are all "third date" topics, at the earliest. Still, it's important to get them settled early, or nothing further can be accomplished.


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## landshark (Mar 4, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Society expects a lot of things that aren't reasonable. *Self* control isn't one of them, but *emotional* control, outside of repression, would be, and yes, I phrased my reply that way because *I still don't fully believe that you really have the ability to mold your emotions as you claim. * I think there's some other explanation, but I don't know you well enough to determine what that is.



Are you using a general "you" or do you think I personally don't have the ability to mold my emotions the way I claim?



TwoSwords said:


> It's not my *goal* to alienate anyone. My goal is to find a venue to express this thing that's about to burst out of my chest like a chest-buster alien. I'm sick of being told I can't. If someone is alienated because they're not especially interested in what I have to say, then fine. I deal with that all the time. It's no big deal. If they're *repulsed,* or *hurt* because they feel alienated, then maybe they put too much stock in everyone being just like them, or maybe we should have some method of warning people about what hurts us as individuals, so that we can divide up into groups of people who *can* tolerate each other.



What you admire is something they may not like about themselves. Women want men who are attracted to them as a person. One thing I experienced in my years dating bigger women is many of them have had an encounter or two with guys who have a fat fetish and no woman wants to be the object of a guy's fetish. It's not about them "putting too much stock" into everyone being like them. It's about wanting to be wanted for who they are and treated like a normal woman. Drawing attention to her fatness, no matter how well meaning you may be, often has the opposite effect. 




TwoSwords said:


> Character flaws are related to *ethics,* not aesthetics. Is it somehow unethical to crave fairness?



The response you gave in the context you gave it could be easily interpreted that you want to express your emotions even if it makes the person to whom you express them uneasy. That's a lack of tact and if you do it knowing it makes the other person uneasy or outright hurts them, I'd say it's definitely a character flaw.



TwoSwords said:


> Straight there? Certainly not. These are all "third date" topics, at the earliest. Still, it's important to get them settled early, or nothing further can be accomplished.



Third date? That's amusing. Try 7th or 8th year of being married. That's the kind of credibility you need to really be able to have these kinds of conversations without risking an embarrassing situation.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 4, 2017)

happily_married said:


> Are you using a general "you" or do you think I personally don't have the ability to mold my emotions the way I claim?



It's not that I think you can't. I just have some strong doubts, because my own experiences have run so much against that; not just in my own life, but in the lives of those around me. I rarely encounter people whose emotional stimuli changes over the course of years, or even decades.



happily_married said:


> What you admire is something they may not like about themselves. Women want men who are attracted to them as a person. One thing I experienced in my years dating bigger women is many of them have had an encounter or two with guys who have a fat fetish and no woman wants to be the object of a guy's fetish.



I'm calling this right now, because I see this word used a lot, and I want to point out that it's not often used correctly. The word "fetish" specifically pertains to either a *sexual* obsession, or to an inanimate object. For me, it's not especially sexual. Oh, it *is* an obsession, but it's more like what I was saying about the ocean or the grand canyon, or a nature hike. We appreciate the beauty of these things without necessarily feeling *sexual* about them.

Speaking personally, I have always disliked when people wanted to know what I'd been up to over the last week, or yesterday evening, or have wanted to talk to me about the weather and such, and it's not because I have anything to hide, or (God forbid) because I'm hesitant in telling them the truth about what happened. I just find those topics boring, because they're about mundane issues that could happen to anyone. Because of this, I have a hard time sympathizing with or understanding the drive to move relationships in that mundane direction. Instead, I like to talk about qualities, talents, abilities, ethics, dreams and imagination.

Maybe, if a woman just wanted to cuddle all day, all night, all the time, I might *eventually* get tired of it if we never talked about *anything,* but I just don't feel that focusing on the minutiae will do anything to progress a relationship.



happily_married said:


> It's about wanting to be wanted for who they are and treated like a normal woman. Drawing attention to her fatness, no matter how well meaning you may be, often has the opposite effect.



"Who they are." Who is this, exactly? I've said this before. A person is a rational animal, composed of a union of soul and body, and it does no good to ignore half of that composition, and still expect that the relationship will be based on "who you are."



happily_married said:


> The response you gave in the context you gave it could be easily interpreted that you want to express your emotions even if it makes the person to whom you express them uneasy. That's a lack of tact and if you do it knowing it makes the other person uneasy or outright hurts them, I'd say it's definitely a character flaw.



Does a lack of tact kill someone? Does it steal from someone, deceive them, cause enviousness, or otherwise commit some crime against them?

I'm legitimately trying to understand what the connection is here between tact and ethics, and I'm drawing a blank. It sounds like you're referring to sentiment, which has nothing to do with ethics, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please explain.



happily_married said:


> Third date? That's amusing. Try 7th or 8th year of being married. That's the kind of credibility you need to really be able to have these kinds of conversations without risking an embarrassing situation.



Then I'm doomed to be alone, because I could never commit to a relationship with anyone unless we were of one mind on this.

Keep in mind what I said before. I'm *already* having emotional trouble because of how much and how long I've sat on the expressions of these feelings, and with every new "sighting" that goes unexpressed, those feelings grow more unbearable. Do you really think that I could knowingly place myself in a position where, for 7 years, I would find those feelings building and building like a volcano; not just every couple of weeks, or every month, but every second that I'm in the home, and never, ever getting to express them, in the hopes that *one day* I *might* be permitted to share them with someone?

I've heard that love and beauty warm the heart of others. For me, they're a consuming fire, and I'm always burning. If anything that you've just said is true, my best bet is to become a hermit.


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## agouderia (Mar 4, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Does a lack of tact kill someone?



No - a lack of tact doesn't kill someone.
But constant lack of tact kills something in someone - their feeling of selfworth.

Weight is - especially for women - a highly intimate subject. And one which, if you don't conform to the social weight norm - is constantly, tactlessly dragged out in the open and discussed. There is no other personal "weakness" or "fault" were it is so socially accepted to pick on others in public.

That leaves a lot of emotional scars over time. And when you address it directly very early on in personal contact - I can tell you what will happen: As soon as you use the words "weight" or "fat" - the mental shutters of your date will go down. She will no longer hear, let alone grasp any of the positive things you might have to say about both (fat fetishism isn't even an issue at this point). And she probably will not be interested in hearing any more from you, let alone give you as serious chance as friend- or relationship material.

If letting out your preferences verbally at first site is so important - fine, go ahead, do so. But then you'll have to live with the consequences.

How about some subtlety? There are lots of ways of showing your appreciation without blurting out: "Your fat is gorgeous!"

Tell her how wonderfully smooth and creamy her skin is. That you're a boobs, butt, thunder-thighs - or whatever - man. How great you thing some truly plus-size model looks and how much she resembles her. Your favorite paintings by Rubens or Botero, etc., etc.

And give it time. True intimacy, meaning also the option of honestly discussion weaknesses, needs time. Time to establish personal trust. If you reach that point, then you can let it out - and you will be heard.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 4, 2017)

agouderia said:


> No - a lack of tact doesn't kill someone.
> But constant lack of tact kills something in someone - their feeling of selfworth.



Actually, I've found that when multiple tactless people interact with each other, it sort of burns off most doubts about your worth as a person, but that might just be how it worked for me.



agouderia said:


> Weight is - especially for women - a highly intimate subject. And one which, if you don't conform to the social weight norm - is constantly, tactlessly dragged out in the open and discussed. There is no other personal "weakness" or "fault" were it is so socially accepted to pick on others in public.



Heck, it doesn't have to be out in the open, though that would make things a little less confusing. I'm just sick of always having the most elaborate, flowery compliments (soft as a field of geraniums, etc...) struggling to get out of my mouth, and having to keep forcing them down.



agouderia said:


> That leaves a lot of emotional scars over time. And when you address it directly very early on in personal contact - I can tell you what will happen: As soon as you use the words "weight" or "fat" - the mental shutters of your date will go down. She will no longer hear, let alone grasp any of the positive things you might have to say about both (fat fetishism isn't even an issue at this point). And she probably will not be interested in hearing any more from you, let alone give you as serious chance as friend- or relationship material.



Maybe it's just as well, then. She probably wouldn't enjoy my company if it's really that big of a problem for her, and as I pointed out, I'd probably be just as miserable if I had to keep my mouth shut as a rule of thumb. There's little point in a relationship where one or both participants needs to make the other miserable all the time.



agouderia said:


> And give it time. True intimacy, meaning also the option of honestly discussion weaknesses, needs time. Time to establish personal trust. If you reach that point, then you can let it out - and you will be heard.



See, I'm still not sure. Keep in mind, I'm still not convinced that people can change the stimuli that cause their emotions to react (though it's possible that others; even most people can, outside of the people who *I personally* know,) so I'm always a little worried that after weeks, months, years, or what have you, I'll discover that the insecure feelings of person X weren't really insecure feelings, but represented an actual, genuine dislike of fatness, as unchangeable as my own feelings. That would be like a nightmare to me, because I've been in lots of unsympathetic relationships (family, friends, etc...) and another one just isn't what I want. I'd be inconsolable.


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## landshark (Mar 4, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> It's not that I think you can't. I just have some strong doubts, *because my own experiences* have run so much against that; not just in my own life, but in the lives of those around me. I rarely encounter people whose emotional stimuli changes over the course of years, or even decades.



Doubt away but you're applying your baseline to me. Fundamentally wrong, partner. I'm a completely different person than you so basing what you believe about my ability to do something on your own ability to do (or not do) something is as flawed as it gets. 

To be fair, we all normalize everything to our own selves. But at some point you have to take a step back and recognize that you are not universal and what's normal to you is not necessarily normal to someone else.



TwoSwords said:


> I'm calling this right now, because I see this word used a lot, and I want to point out that it's not often used correctly. The word "fetish" specifically pertains to either a *sexual* obsession, or to an inanimate object. For me, it's not especially sexual. Oh, it *is* an obsession, but it's more like what I was saying about the ocean or the grand canyon, or a nature hike. We appreciate the beauty of these things without necessarily feeling *sexual* about them.



Fetish: a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.

That's the definition on google. Based on that definition I've used the word correctly. Remember how I used the word: I wasn't suggesting your attraction is a fetish, I was referring to women who have encountered men who seemed to have fetishes and thus had defenses up. How this relates to you is that your initial question and the lack of tact involved will most likely result in those defenses going up.

Ironically enough, I recently reconnected with a friend who I tried to date years ago. I was still a bit clumsy back then, still learning how to treat bigger girls: that they don't need you to assure them you like their ht/wt, but just treat them like you would a normal girl. At any rate sometime last year I asked why she abruptly broke contact with me way back when. She said on one of our first meetings I'd mentioned liking her weight, saying something about it being very appealing to me. She gave me a general explanation back then, but this was the first time I'd heard specifics. I remember exactly what she was talking about and to me it was a benign comment. To her it was a red flag because even though I seemed sincere she had been burned by a couple other guys who also seemed sincere. 

(Fun fact: I wound up getting married before she did, and when we first connected again on FB she saw I'd married a bigger woman and was all :doh: I missed out! But she's in a good place now too. )

You may indeed be sincere in your expression, but to a woman who doesn't know you, you can't blame them for applying their own past experiences to you. After all, you did the exact same thing to me, didn't you? Remember: they don't know you so they don't know if you're sincere or not.



TwoSwords said:


> Speaking personally...



You're only one part of the equation. If you want to meet someone and grow together you have to recognize that their preferences have to matter even more than your own.



TwoSwords said:


> "Who they are." Who is this, exactly? I've said this before. A person is a rational animal, composed of a union of soul and body, and it does no good to ignore half of that composition, and still expect that the relationship will be based on "who you are."



But you don't know how she thinks. You may catch lightening in a bottle and meet that one who agrees with you. But there's a lot of women out there who make a distinction between the "who" and the "what." For example, she may say, "I'm a fat woman." (what) but also "I'm a person named ____." (who). Do you see the difference?



TwoSwords said:


> Does a lack of tact kill someone? Does it steal from someone, deceive them, cause enviousness, or otherwise commit some crime against them?



No of course not. But tact can be the difference between an abrupt end to a first date or a marriage 11+ years and counting. Ask me how I know.



TwoSwords said:


> I'm legitimately trying to understand what the connection is here between tact and ethics, and I'm drawing a blank. It sounds like you're referring to sentiment, which has nothing to do with ethics, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please explain.



It's not hard to understand unless you have committed yourself to overthinking things. Tact is the difference between having a bit of social grace or being either a colossal douche nozzle or socially inept. 

And I'm not referring to sentiment or ethics. I'm referring to the reality that if you proceed without concern for another's feelings, you lack tact and are likely in one of the two alternative groups I've identified. Don't overthink things. 



TwoSwords said:


> Then I'm doomed to be alone, because I could never commit to a relationship with anyone unless we were of one mind on this.



Then I would have to consider you extremely superficial and shallow. After all, we'd say the same thing about anyone who did not want his partner to gain weight after he had committed to her. A committed relationship presumably lasts over time and over time physical changes take place. And a physical attraction is the genesis of this conversation. 



TwoSwords said:


> Keep in mind what I said before. I'm *already* having emotional trouble because of how much and how long I've sat on the expressions of these feelings, and with every new "sighting" that goes unexpressed, those feelings grow more unbearable. Do you really think that I could knowingly place myself in a position where, for 7 years, I would find those feelings building and building like a volcano; not just every couple of weeks, or every month, but every second that I'm in the home, and never, ever getting to express them, in the hopes that *one day* I *might* be permitted to share them with someone?
> 
> I've heard that love and beauty warm the heart of others. For me, they're a consuming fire, and I'm always burning. If anything that you've just said is true, my best bet is to become a hermit.



Then step out and try it your way. It didn't work for me but thankfully I learned and grew. Maybe it'll work for you.


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## landshark (Mar 4, 2017)

agouderia said:


> No - a lack of tact doesn't kill someone.
> But constant lack of tact kills something in someone - their feeling of self worth.



Exactly. To OP it's a well meant compliment but to the woman to whom he shares said "compliment" it's very likely the latest in a string of (at best) cautionary flags or (at worst) outright demeaning drawing of attention to her weight.



agouderia said:


> Weight is - especially for women - a highly intimate subject. And one which, if you don't conform to the social weight norm - is constantly, tactlessly dragged out in the open and discussed. There is no other personal "weakness" or "fault" were it is so socially accepted to pick on others in public.



This is pure gold. Platinum, even. I can't even add to it but I can't stress to OP enough that THIS IS WHY his approach is highly likely to fail.



TwoSwords said:


> See, I'm still not sure. Keep in mind, I'm still not convinced that people can change the stimuli that cause their emotions to react...



Do you find it acceptable when a grown adult reacts the way a small child would when something doesn't go his/her own way? Do you believe in emotional maturity?


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## TwoSwords (Mar 5, 2017)

happily_married said:


> Doubt away but you're applying your baseline to me... etc...



These two paragraphs merely signify to me that you didn't read all of what I wrote. As I said, the data from which I draw my conclusions *isn't* just based on me, but on *everyone I know or have known.* That's definitely enough data to start drawing conclusions from. *Two people* would be sufficient to begin drawing rational conclusions from, because it would represent the greater amount of evidence in support of an inductive conclusion.



happily_married said:


> I wasn't suggesting your attraction is a fetish, I was referring to women who *have encountered men who seemed to have fetishes* and *thus had defenses up.*



I'm not seeing the connection between these two things. Please explain this. Also, if you're saying what I think you're saying, how does rushing to incorrect conclusions qualify as a "defense?"



happily_married said:


> How this relates to you is that your *initial question* and the *lack of tact involved* will most likely result in those defenses going up.



I think you know better than that. That's not at all the issue here. I've already responded to the "initial question" claim, and I'm still waiting on a reply about the worth of tact.



happily_married said:


> You may indeed be sincere in your expression, but to a woman who doesn't know you, you can't blame them for applying their own past experiences to you.



I don't, but I'm surprised that you don't, given that you just criticized me for this very thing; inductive reasoning.

And no; I don't take issue with anyone for being scared. There's a lot to be scared of in this wicked world. I take issue with choosing revulsion over the desire to learn and understand.



happily_married said:


> You're only one part of the equation. If you want to meet someone and grow together you have to recognize that their preferences have to matter even more than your own.



They do, but a failure on *either end* is enough to deprive the relationship of its purpose. Just as I wouldn't hold it against anyone who decided I just wasn't what she was looking for, there are a few things that would make a legitimate relationship unworkable on my end as well.



happily_married said:


> But there's a lot of women out there who make a distinction between the "who" and the "what." For example, she may say, "I'm a fat woman." (what) but also "I'm a person named ____." (who). Do you see the difference?



Are you saying that once you know the person's name, and use it regularly, you can also express how you really feel? I haven't found that to be the case.

In any case, it's definitely much more than just a name. A person is identified by a plethora of fears, interests, dreams, wishes, talents, hobbies, points of view, etc... Many of these things, however, can change over time, so it's important to understand them as fully as possible.

Keep in mind the central question; are these things intended to be a *condition* for the expression of my feelings, or are they intended to be a *replacement* for it? One of these is sufficient to make all the work, difficulty, compromise and hardship of a relationship worthwhile, and the other is not, so please answer this question as clearly as possible.



happily_married said:


> It's not hard to understand unless you have committed yourself to overthinking things.



Alright. This is going to come up sooner or later, so you may as well know now. I don't think the same way that most others do. While many other people have helpful instincts and "common sense," I have no ability to intuit whatsoever, or rather, the things that I intuit nearly always run contrary to the prevailing views. For this reason, in order to find work, friends, a purpose, etc, I've needed to supplement my intuitions with exhaustive analysis, which takes longer, but often leads to important discoveries.

So, no. For me, it *is* hard to understand, and my habit of thinking everything through is *a coping mechanism,* not the *cause* of my failure to understand.



happily_married said:


> Tact is the difference between having a bit of* social grace* or being either a *colossal douche nozzle* or *socially inept.*



All of these terms are highly ambiguous, though I've learned to identify myself as socially awkward in the past, so I think I may understand part of what you mean.



happily_married said:


> Then I would have to consider you extremely superficial and shallow. After all, we'd say the same thing about anyone who did not want his partner to gain weight after he had committed to her. A committed relationship presumably lasts over time and over time physical changes take place. And a physical attraction is the genesis of this conversation.



Not hardly. The genesis of this conversion was the freedom to express feelings. Allowing/encouraging a beloved partner or significant other to express feelings dear to their heart is not a physical quality, attraction or change. It is a *behavioral* factor, and can be adopted by anyone who's willing to act with a little maturity and self-control. I do this all the time, whenever I listen to my friends or family talk about their lives, then give my input. Do you think I actually find their lives compelling or interesting? No! I listen because they're my family/friends, and it's a good thing to do for someone who's done right by you! I view this as no different at all.



happily_married said:


> Then step out and try it your way. It didn't work for me but thankfully I learned and grew.



There's nowhere to grow to, unless you have any ideas for how to circumvent or avoid these obstacles.



happily_married said:


> THIS IS WHY his approach is highly likely to fail.



Again, we're not talking about a different *approach.* If what you've been telling me is true, our end goals are quite different.



happily_married said:


> Do you find it acceptable when a grown adult reacts the way a small child would when something doesn't go his/her own way? Do you believe in emotional maturity?



Maybe, under a different name. I believe in ethical maturity; having the strength to do what's right in the face of harsh opposition. I believe in self-control; the virtue to stop oneself from doing evil or harming others, and to make oneself do good and right. I believe in relationship maturity; the willingness to give of one's time, resources, attention and effort for the sake of supporting a good relationship. However, that's about all I believe in that even comes close to what you're describing. Everyone I know who has a set of distinct feelings had the same distinct feelings five years ago, and, (in the cases of those who I've known for longer than five years,) also ten, twenty and thirty years ago.


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## landshark (Mar 5, 2017)

This will probably be my last reply. At least my last attempt to go point for point and over complicate a simple subject that can be boiled down to 3 words: Respect others' preferences. These posts are growing longer and longer and while I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse, but you yourself acknowledged:



TwoSwords said:


> Alright. This is going to come up sooner or later, so you may as well know now. I don't think the same way that most others do. While many other people have helpful instincts and "common sense," I have no ability to intuit whatsoever, or rather, the things that I intuit nearly always run contrary to the prevailing views. For this reason, in order to find work, friends, a purpose, etc, I've needed to supplement my intuitions with exhaustive analysis, which takes longer, but often leads to important discoveries.
> 
> So, no. For me, it *is* hard to understand, and my habit of thinking everything through is *a coping mechanism,* not the *cause* of my failure to understand.



Exhaustive analysis may be nice and all but that's the kind of work I do for a living and I am not inclined to keep it up during my leisure time. And I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I intend it as a legit suggestion, but you may consider professional help, either something to assist you with your coping mechanism or at minimum someone who can give you a little social coaching.




TwoSwords said:


> These two paragraphs merely signify to me that you didn't read all of what I wrote. As I said, the data from which I draw my conclusions *isn't* just based on me, but on *everyone I know or have known.* That's definitely enough data to start drawing conclusions from. *Two people* would be sufficient to begin drawing rational conclusions from, because it would represent the greater amount of evidence in support of an inductive conclusion.



I certainly did read it but dismiss the idea again. People tend to surround themselves by people who give them validation. I'm not sure where you find that many who lack emotional maturity but the vast majority of adults in my life have a healthy enough degree of it to validate my own position. So we are at an impasse here.



TwoSwords said:


> I'm not seeing the connection between these two things. Please explain this. Also, if you're saying what I think you're saying, how does rushing to incorrect conclusions qualify as a "defense?"



Okay, I'll apologize for using the word "initial." I should have known you'd hone in on that word and miss entirely the general point I am trying to make. And that is, if you go where you want to go TOO EARLY (and "too early" is defined by the person you're getting to know, so you never really know when it's not "too early") she may well assume you have a fetish and decide that's not for her. Who cares about her conclusions about you being wrong? Do you want to get to know her or not? Is expressing your appreciation for something that may be an extremely sensitive issue to her so important that you risk shutting her down over it? And I'll tell you why "rushing to incorrect conclusions" qualifies as a defense. Defense is like insurance. You hope you never need to use it but when you need it you're glad it's there. A woman may think "Maybe I'm being too hasty but honestly I've been burned too many times to give anyone who goes there a chance and I have to start thinking about protecting myself." Like my friend whose example I shared with you. Did you even read it?



TwoSwords said:


> I think you know better than that. That's not at all the issue here. I've already responded to the "initial question" claim, and I'm still waiting on a reply about the worth of tact.



See above on my word choice regarding initial. As for the claim on tact, both Agouderia and I have repeatedly outlined why tact is so valuable. You've either not read and considered them or you've dismissed it them without so much as a rebuttal. Which is fine with me, it's no skin off my nose. But the thoughts are there for you to read and consider. I'm not in the practice of saying again what I've already said, especially when it's in writing and anyone can just go back and read it. 



TwoSwords said:


> I don't, but I'm surprised that you don't, given that you just criticized me for this very thing; inductive reasoning.
> 
> And no; I don't take issue with anyone for being scared. There's a lot to be scared of in this wicked world. I take issue with choosing revulsion over the desire to learn and understand.



Here's why I criticized YOU for it: I'm having a conversation with YOU. I'm not having a conversation with any theoretical woman out there on the receiving end of your "praise" for her fat. If I were in such a conversation with her I'd encourage her to not jump to conclusions but take a guarded optimism going forward. Secondly, you applied your baseline to me on a general behavioral trait. In the hypothetical we're discussing she'd be applying her baseline experiences toward you based on an intimately personal physical trait that may well have resulted in her being hurt in the past. Slightly different circumstances.



TwoSwords said:


> They do, but a failure on *either end* is enough to deprive the relationship of its purpose. Just as I wouldn't hold it against anyone who decided I just wasn't what she was looking for, there are a few things that would make a legitimate relationship unworkable on my end as well.



Relationships change and grow over time because people change and grow. It's really unreasonable to expect someone to be able to project well into the future that she will never want to drop below that magical 200 pound threshold you adore so much. Suppose she gets news about a health concern that can grow more serious with time? Or maybe she sees something that inspires her to pursue weightless and athletic activities and these pursuits genuinely make her happy? 

Is your basis for your attraction to her so tied to the physical that you believe these changes would disrupt the relationship? If so I'll repeat that I think that makes you a bit shallow. Furthermore, it validates any hypothetical concern a hypothetical woman may have if/when you raise the issue early on as you're getting to know her.



TwoSwords said:


> Are you saying that once you know the person's name, and use it regularly, you can also express how you really feel? I haven't found that to be the case.



You missed that point so ridiculously bad that I'm starting to rethink my "deliberately obtuse" comment. I'm not trying to be mean, but, no, that's not even close to what I'm saying. You're off by comical proportions. 

My point is the difference between "who" and "what." Most women want to be appreciated for "who" they are, not "what" they are. 



TwoSwords said:


> All of these terms are highly ambiguous, though I've learned to identify myself as socially awkward in the past, so I think I may understand part of what you mean.



They have professionals who specialize in coaching for social situations. This can help with your awkwardness if you're interested. 



TwoSwords said:


> Not hardly. The genesis of this conversion was the *freedom to express feelings. *



This sort of thing is why I'm bowing out of this discussion. Yes, freedom to express feelings is the genesis but the venue in which that freedom was introduced is related to physical attraction and that is the context we've discussed this while time. 



TwoSwords said:


> There's nowhere to grow to, unless you have any ideas for how to circumvent or avoid these obstacles.



I do. It's called tact. But you've already dismissed the worth of tact so...



TwoSwords said:


> Again, we're not talking about a different *approach.* If what you've been telling me is true, our end goals are quite different.



Again, you're allowing a single word to distract you from the main idea conveyed. I'll stand by the points I've made, but I'll not debate you on the points you wish or think I've made. 



TwoSwords said:


> Maybe, under a different name. I believe in ethical maturity; having the strength to do what's right in the face of harsh opposition. I believe in self-control; the virtue to stop oneself from doing evil or harming others, and to make oneself do good and right. I believe in relationship maturity; the willingness to give of one's time, resources, attention and effort for the sake of supporting a good relationship. However, that's about all I believe in that even comes close to what you're describing. Everyone I know who has a set of distinct feelings had the same distinct feelings five years ago, and, (in the cases of those who I've known for longer than five years,) also ten, twenty and thirty years ago.



That's quite a circle you run in. 

As indicated I'm probably done trying to go point for point with you. I will say this: ultimately I do understand that you need someone with whom to express these feelings and in the event you do end up in a relationship, her respecting your needs is just as important as your respecting hers. This includes being an outlet for your expression. Still, it can be dicey. 

I already hinted at this, but I was 7 or 8 years into my marriage when I asked my wife if she'd consider instead of attempting to lose weight to work on a better self image at her current weight. She said she couldn't do that, and a relatively short time after that had some success losing weight. Unfortunately for her she gained it all back and then some. She knows I support her weight loss efforts but she also knows that not only am I not complaining about her weight but am outright loving it. She does not begrudge me that, but she used to. She's grown in the relationship too and we're better for it. She still doesn't like me fawning over certain features on her body, but in some circumstances allows it (and in the right circumstances does seem to enjoy it). 

So we've reached a healthy balance where my need to express my appreciation for the one woman I'll ever be with again is respected and her desire for as little undue attention to certain parts of her body is respected. Balance.

Good luck, TS.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 5, 2017)

I don't think I need to touch on every point, since you made a good end to the conversation with the following paragraphs...



happily_married said:


> I will say this: ultimately I do understand that you need someone with whom to express these feelings and in the event you do end up in a relationship, her respecting your needs is just as important as your respecting hers. This includes being an outlet for your expression.



Yes. That is the central point.



happily_married said:


> So we've reached a healthy balance where my need to express my appreciation for the one woman I'll ever be with again is respected and her desire for as little undue attention to certain parts of her body is respected. Balance.



If that's sufficient to make the relationship bearable, I couldn't be happier for you.

I also think you hit very close to the mark, when you said...



happily_married said:


> Is expressing your appreciation for something that may be an extremely sensitive issue to her so important that you risk shutting her down over it?



I don't want to take any risks that I don't need to, which is why I went looking for tips, but yes. Yes, it *is really* that important.

Thank you for the insurance analogy. That helps me to understand the situation a little better. Though it doesn't really change my situation any, any tidbit of information is helpful.

However, I am still *really* confused by a ton of what you said, and I know, you're not obligated to go into analysis or clarify anything, but just for the record, I want to point out what, precisely, I still don't get.



happily_married said:


> ...and "too early" is defined by the person you're getting to know, so you never really know when it's not "too early"...



This is one of the most relevant portions with regard to what I was asking for, though it would be nice to have some descriptions of warning signs, which I could use to determine when it's "too early." What? Do you just ask the person if you can start expressing how you really feel?



happily_married said:


> Like my friend whose example I shared with you. Did you even read it?



Of course, but in your friend's case, being defensive was a costly mistake, so it seemed to more or less validate what I'd been saying all along.



happily_married said:


> You've either not read and considered them or you've dismissed it them without so much as a rebuttal.



There's no need to rebut it. I asked for clarification. I still don't understand this, and I think it's strange and likely to lead to wasted time on both sides. So far, I don't have a reason to think otherwise.



happily_married said:


> Secondly, you applied your baseline to me on a general behavioral trait. In the hypothetical we're discussing she'd be applying her baseline experiences toward you based on an intimately personal physical trait that may well have resulted in her being hurt in the past.



That's what inductive reasoning is. From specific examples to general conclusions. As for the rest... You're suggesting that I try to get information on whether she's previously been hurt? I guess? I'm not sure what you're recommending here.



happily_married said:


> Suppose she gets news about a health concern that can grow more serious with time? Or maybe she sees something that inspires her to pursue weightless and athletic activities and these pursuits genuinely make her happy?
> 
> Is your basis for your attraction to her so tied to the physical that you believe these changes would disrupt the relationship?



The first one, no. I would mourn with her over her illness, and share, to the best of my ability, in her suffering, because that's something I can completely understand and sympathize with. She would never want for a shoulder to cry on.

However, if she ever found that being thin could make her happy, I would mourn alone, because I could never draw any kind of happiness from being thin, and I can't understand people who can. It would make us so different from one another, that I honestly don't know what would happen.



happily_married said:


> ...that's not even close to what I'm saying.



Well, that's what you actually said, *overtly.* I'm looking for what "who she is" means, as in, a working definition or list of all the things it encompasses, and I still haven't found one.



happily_married said:


> My point is the difference between "who" and "what." Most women want to be appreciated for "who" they are, not "what" they are.



Right, and my point is *what does that mean?!!??!* You're using words, and I have no idea what you mean by them! My gosh!

I don't mean to be combative (in this topic,) and I don't mean to be a pain, but I just don't understand half of this stuff, or how anybody else can deal with it. I still get a "thou shalt not openly appreciate good things of a not-approved type" vibe from the whole thing, and I've never heard any good reason why this is the case.

In closing, do you know what I think all of this is really about? I think, as with all relationship issues, the only reason why any of us even try is that we're tired of being lonely. The only question is; what does it take before we stop feeling lonely? I've felt lonely all my life. I've been surrounded by people, been to many different schools, jobs, recreational activities, but my thoughts and positions were always just kind of discarded without a second thought. It was like being invited to party after party, only to be told, once you get there, that you have to spend the whole party standing in the corner and not participating, or else someone might get hurt. To me, that's what loneliness is. It's never having a group to belong to. It's always being on the outskirts of human relationships, observing and studying, and never quite meeting anyone you can truly sympathize with.

You know, I honestly think it would be easier for me to strike up a relationship with a thin woman, as long as she was an FA like me, because at least then, I wouldn't have to feel like I was alone in the room.


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## fuelingfire (Mar 6, 2017)

I read the majority of the replies. My advice, get better at flirting. Flirt with a fat woman, if she likes you and is interested she will bring up her size at some point, that is the opening you are waiting for, in my experience. And don't go over board with it, on first mention. Saying something like, "I prefer fat chicks" sounds causal, or "I usually prefer larger women" I would then try to move the conversation, back to the flirting realm, unless she has follow up questions. 

If you come out and say something like, "I love how your belly hangs!" You will sound like a creeper. In modern dating, it is important to establish that you are not a sexual predator.

And you have no idea where on the size acceptance spectrum, the fat woman you are talking to falls in.


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## LarryTheNoodleGuy (Mar 6, 2017)

One of THE biggest complaints, today as in the olden days before the net, is that men are in TOO BIG A HURRY.

Women can SMELL that you haven't touched a woman in quite some time, and it repels them. There is time to flood them with sonnets. It doesn't have to be right NOW, TODAY. You have a ton of energy. Some people like that, most people, especially women, don't. 

Take your time. Deep breath, cowboy. Your frustration is screaming. It's "What wrong with me that I can't get a girlfriend?" in a different package. 

Or, as a friend said to me in 7th grade when I asked his advice about how to get girls -

"Relax."


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## Tracii (Mar 6, 2017)

If you are having issues finding dates or connecting with women maybe you should change your approach.
Its not that they have issues its you that has to learn how to interact with a woman.
I see by the past threads you just want to argue with people that are tying to help you.
You aren't going to change thats obvious and you aren't willing to learn so you are on your own.
You only have yourself to blame.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 6, 2017)

LarryTheNoodleGuy said:


> One of THE biggest complaints, today as in the olden days before the net, is that men are in TOO BIG A HURRY.
> 
> Women can SMELL that you haven't touched a woman in quite some time, and it repels them. There is time to flood them with sonnets. It doesn't have to be right NOW, TODAY. You have a ton of energy. Some people like that, most people, especially women, don't.
> 
> ...



Lol, i totally enjoyed reading this...it's not quite how I view it/think of it but it does sum it up neatly

TwoSwords....I feel like I'm missing something here. I read your OP. The first part and the second part seem like worlds apart to me. 

It went from "don't mention her weight" .....as in when you first meet to "I want to write sonnets". There is a time frame that I don't see you regarding/addressing. 

The "slow down" ideal isn't unique to fat women. For example, if a guy walked up to Pamela Anderson and the FIRST thing he asks is her measuements. Do you think this question isn't one that she's been asked before? It's a fumbly, rude, no-thought-behind-it-at-all, assuming, selfish, buffoon type of question....and it tells her, ever more quickly than your johnson is moving, that you have nothing that special about you. Why? Because you put NO effort into your approach. 
You think she's special somehow? What do you have to offer her? Certainly not polite conversation or regard for her personal comfort in your presence.

You seem like a bright guy TwoSwords. I'm glad you're asking the questions...because you also seem like a very young man to me, as well. 

Slow it down....why? Because if you_ really_ are interested in meeting a real life gal that suits your fancy, you have to. No choice.
It's common human decency that most people deserve and prefer.

How can you write someone a sonnet when you can't make the effort to have a normal polite conversation in the beginning. Good things take time....and are worth the effort.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 6, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> I read the majority of the replies. My advice, get better at flirting. Flirt with a fat woman, if she likes you and is interested she will bring up her size at some point, that is the opening you are waiting for, in my experience. And don't go over board with it, on first mention. Saying something like, "I prefer fat chicks" sounds causal, or "I usually prefer larger women" I would then try to move the conversation, back to the flirting realm, unless she has follow up questions.



That sounds like a workable idea. I'll have to study this, because it's not an area I have much experience in.



fuelingfire said:


> If you come out and say something like, "I love how your belly hangs!" You will sound like a creeper. In modern dating, it is important to establish that you are not a sexual predator.



True, true. My concern would be in finding a way to prove that definitively. It's not as easy as you might think, especially when people are already worrying themselves.



fuelingfire said:


> And you have no idea where on the size acceptance spectrum, the fat woman you are talking to falls in.



Right. I'm always on the lookout for any evidence for this key bit of information, even in people I just sort of casually know, because honestly, at this point, any opportunity to get some of this pent-up emotion expressed is a good one.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 6, 2017)

LarryTheNoodleGuy said:


> One of THE biggest complaints, today as in the olden days before the net, is that men are in TOO BIG A HURRY.
> 
> Women can SMELL that you haven't touched a woman in quite some time, and it repels them. There is time to flood them with sonnets. It doesn't have to be right NOW, TODAY. You have a ton of energy. Some people like that, most people, especially women, don't.
> 
> ...



I wish I could just *decide* to have weaker feelings, or to have the opportunity to share them in other venues, so they didn't have to keep building. That would make everything *way* easier. At the moment, the most I can do is repress harder, and try to learn new techniques to repress emotion (which I'm not bad at doing most of the time.) It's just hard and I risk my real feelings slipping out with every "sighting" of more than a few seconds in length.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 6, 2017)

Tracii said:


> If you are having issues finding dates or connecting with women maybe you should change your approach.



That's fine, just so long as the end result is that I finally get to express these feelings in full.

If that's the end result, basically any change in approach is acceptable. If it's not, then no change is sufficient.

None of the other issues we've been talking about are important, compared to this one.


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## landshark (Mar 6, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Of course, but in your friend's case, being defensive was a costly mistake, so it seemed to more or less validate what I'd been saying all along.



In hind sight, perhaps. But in this case she and I just happened to stay in touch as friends and that just happened to afford us the opportunity to see it in hindsight. This is definitely an exception. And it also just happened to work out that I found someone and got married and she eventually did as well. Happy endings all around. Again, that's not always the case, and we only know it because we happened to connect as friends again many years later. So yes, perhaps in your mind it validates your argument, the truth is actually learning of said validation and the closure that comes with it is likely a very rare exception. What's more common is being left wondering what you did wrong (which was where I was when she said she didn't want to see me anymore). 

As for not understanding the difference between "what" and "who" what I'm trying to stress is many people do not identify themselves (that is, their being or the "who") as conditional to their physical body. For example, I know some who refuse to identify as "African American" because they identify as "American." They do not define (even partially) themselves on skin color. Likewise a big girl may not identify as a "big girl" but simply a girl. The "what" is a physical trait but the "who" is larger: it's being, it's the essence of that person. If you try to mix the wires on a person like that be ready for her to clam up.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 6, 2017)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> It went from "don't mention her weight" .....as in when you first meet to "I want to write sonnets". There is a time frame that I don't see you regarding/addressing.



You're right. I didn't address the timing of these two things. I didn't mean for them to be taken simultaneously. My point here was to outline the difference between starting point and finish line. I can totally appreciate that you might want to save the more direct compliments (even compliments in general) for a few weeks; maybe a month or two, but keep in mind that the longer I spend around certain people, the harder it gets to maintain that middle-ground-attitude. I've actually had times, in the past, where I've needed to keep excusing myself from a discussion, and leave the room to get my heart rate back down. That's manageable in small doses, but for anything of a longer term, it's got to be more than that.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> It's a fumbly, rude, no-thought-behind-it-at-all, assuming, selfish, buffoon type of question....and it tells her, ever more quickly than your johnson is moving, that you have nothing that special about you. Why? Because you put NO effort into your approach.



Beauty isn't made of numbers. Not sure what you mean about Johnson, but I can't think of anything that takes more effort than trying to pretend I'm not going nuts inside when I meet someone pretty.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> You think she's special somehow? What do you have to offer her? Certainly not polite conversation or regard for her personal comfort in your presence.



What a paradox this is! How can there be such focus on emotional comfort, when so few people respect the feelings of others?

Don't get me wrong. I'd love for this to be different. If I felt it were safe or helpful to seriously comfort the feelings of others; help them feel safe, listen to them vent, etc, I am quite capable of it, but the problem is that the people in my life (with maybe one or two exceptions,) don't respond well to that kind of treatment. Mostly, they seem to take it for granted, and rarely afford the same courtesies to others.

This is why I question the worth of tact. It's not that I think a tactless world is more pleasant or more comfortable. Far from it. I'm just not sure it's going to get the job done.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> How can you write someone a sonnet when you can't make the effort to have a normal polite conversation in the beginning. Good things take time....and are worth the effort.



Let me tell you about effort. In my first real job, there was a woman who I thought was particularly lovely. I never shied away from her, I was never rude to her, and I tried the best I could to be her friend. I asked her about her interests. I talked to her about her family. I happily accepted her help in (and helped her with) work. This went on for several weeks before I said anything more.

My first minor compliment was met with a look, as though I had three heads. I attempted others, with greater subtlety, but nothing seemed to draw more than a baffled expression out of her.

In my last three months on the job, she'd begun losing weight (which was her prerogative, of course,) and seemed happy about it. I never overtly argued with her about it, but I did try a few remarks to see if I could draw out some kind of hidden feeling, compatible with mine. It never worked. She went on with her life, and I bare her absolutely no ill will. It's her life, and I hope she's had a happy one since then, even if it can't be with me.

This situation lasted for months and months of the most intense, burning, emotional reflux I've ever experienced, and I got basically no opportunity to really express myself in exchange for my investment of effort and time. However, the experience taught me the most important lesson that the soft-sell tactic doesn't work. When a person has feelings that are committedly against mine, no amount of subtlety or politeness helps. You just have to learn what kind of person they are *fast,* and then, if it looks like there's hope, pursue further. If this was unwise or incorrect, or if I drew my conclusion too hastily, please tell me, because as far as I know, all that effort went to waste. I took the time to find out who she was, and who she was, was a person whose natural tendencies and feelings were completely incompatible with mine.

P.S.: No, this is not the only experience that I've had in testing out various approaches to discussion on a member of the opposite sex. Many, however, follow this same, or a similar pattern.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 6, 2017)

happily_married said:


> Happy endings all around.



I... guess so. I honestly found your stories kind of terrifying, because I keep thinking of how I'd feel in your situation, but as long as you're happy, that's what counts.



happily_married said:


> So yes, perhaps in your mind it validates your argument, the truth is actually learning of said validation and the closure that comes with it is likely a very rare exception.



In a certain sense, I'm glad you were able to give me this information, so I didn't have to go looking for it myself. As you say, it's rather tough to learn.



happily_married said:


> What's more common is being left wondering what you did wrong (which was where I was when she said she didn't want to see me anymore).



I can't control other people. It's entirely possible that, even if I did everything right, it still wouldn't work. Let's face it; the deck is pretty heavily stacked against me. I regret a lot of things, but the results of interactions? It's a bit hard to tell which ones I should regret, and which ones totally weren't my fault, so I prefer to just not worry about it.



happily_married said:


> As for not understanding the difference between "what" and "who" what I'm trying to stress is many people do not identify themselves (that is, their being or the "who") as conditional to their physical body. For example, I know some who refuse to identify as "African American" because they identify as "American." They do not define (even partially) themselves on skin color. Likewise a big girl may not identify as a "big girl" but simply a girl. The "what" is a physical trait but the "who" is larger: it's being, it's the essence of that person. If you try to mix the wires on a person like that be ready for her to clam up.



If she didn't consider fatness to be one of her characteristics, there would be no reason for her to get upset. Confused, certainly, but not upset.

Honestly, it's hard for me to even think of myself, or anyone else, in isolation from their qualities (physical and otherwise,) because that's how I tell the difference between one person and the next. I think "oh, she's the one with the blond hair, the interest in restaurants, who doesn't like comics and has Celiac," or "she's the married, fat one with the short hair and glasses, who always smiles when she gets into work, and enjoys baking and traveling on vacation, and likes minions." It goes by fast, but I even identify myself in roughly this way; as a collection of distinguishing qualities. I'm not just an existence, because my existence is very limited.

For this reason, I think this issue is a very important one to address; especially considering the importance of being able to listen to my feelings on beauty.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 7, 2017)

Advice from the sleep-deprived:




TwoSwords said:


> I wish I could just *decide* to have weaker feelings, or to have the opportunity to share them in other venues, so they didn't have to keep building. That would make everything *way* easier. At the moment, the most I can do is repress harder, and try to learn new techniques to repress emotion.



It's not repressing emotion, it's expressing it, but in a different way. 

If you were to offer a gift of a kitten to one who's allergic to cats, the gift would be unappreciated. 

Perhaps the person would be more receptive to a gift of having their windows cleaned. 

In such a case, don't view not offering them kittens as a repressing of your desire to please them, but as an outpouring of respect (the most important emotion to address in a new or potential relationship). 

You may counter that one can't know what to offer another without getting to know that person first, and you'd like to know what emotional 'gift' would be appreciated before giving it.

Perhaps you would say that without knowing what to offer, you can never get a chance to know that person in order to know what to offer, so that you can get a chance to know that person (perpetual motion emotion perpetration, if I may be permitted to coin an awkward phrase). 

No, you can't know what to offer until you know the person. 

So get to know the person, and afford them the same opportunity: To know _you,_ free from what you can do for them, or how you can impress them. 

Offer the opportunity not to be offered something. 

An emotional 'offer' by you could be viewed as an implicit expectation of a reciprocating 'offer' on their part. Such a scenario is called a transaction. Not that satisfying a situation. 


More to the point of the question posited in the thread's title: Don't hold your emotions in. Just express them in ways that will be welcome. 

You don't know what will be welcome?

Get to know the person. Without doing so, you are not experiencing emotion for them anyway, but mere infatuation.


Damn, and I wanted to make this an early night.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

FreeThinker said:


> It's not repressing emotion, it's expressing it, but in a different way.
> 
> If you were to offer a gift of a kitten to one who's allergic to cats, the gift would be unappreciated.
> 
> ...



There's a problem, though, because, to use your own analogy, while I may have a *desire* (as in, a wish) to please others, it doesn't tear at me from the inside, or punish me for not expressing it, like my need to "give kittens" does.



FreeThinker said:


> You may counter that one can't know what to offer another without getting to know that person first, and you'd like to know what emotional 'gift' would be appreciated before giving it.



Only if that gift is a cure for their kitten allergy.



FreeThinker said:


> So get to know the person, and afford them the same opportunity: To know _you,_ free from what you can do for them, or how you can impress them.



Well, as I said before, I don't look at myself as being separate from my qualities, and I really don't care to have people ask about me or my day. Plus, once she realizes my blinding obsession with kittens, all the effort I've put into getting to know her will probably have been wasted.



FreeThinker said:


> An emotional 'offer' by you could be viewed as an implicit expectation of a reciprocating 'offer' on their part. Such a scenario is called a transaction. Not that satisfying a situation.



I wouldn't know. I've never received reciprocation of the type I need; a willingness to accept kittens.



FreeThinker said:


> More to the point of the question posited in the thread's title: Don't hold your emotions in. Just express them in ways that will be welcome.
> 
> You don't know what will be welcome?



I think the problem is still that my emotions are expressible in only a few broad categories of actions, all of which share similar qualities, and are rejected for similar reasons. I *can* wash windows, but that's not an expression of my emotions. I do it, if I do it, as a condition on the route to my *actual* goal. To use your example again, I could give brown kittens, white kittens, black kittens, one kitten, two kittens, red kittens, blue kittens, big kittens, small kittens, short kittens, tall kittens, kittens with long tails, kittens in small pails, kittens on a train, kittens on a plane, kittens on a boat, kittens with a goat, etc, etc, etc, but in order to release any of that pressure that my emotions cause me, these gifts need to have a similar theme to the stimuli that cause my feelings, and when the person in question is *specifically determined to reject that stimuli,* which happens often, there's not much I can really do.


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## fuelingfire (Mar 7, 2017)

In my opinion, a lot of people have given you very good advice. I don't want you to take what I am saying/asking as an insult. Could you give us more examples of your goals? Or experiences? 

I feel like you might be unintentionally misleading us or not asking the right question. You do not seem satisfied with the responses you are receiving. Giving us more examples could help the responses.

The woman you met at your first real job... unfortunately not everyone is interested. It is a healthy idea, that once you realize that someone is not interested in advances from you (especially a coworker who you will see daily at work), to walk away from the idea of her. You made it sound like you were trying for months. Odds are, if you had a chance with her, it wouldn't take that long. The odd looks you were receiving was the strong hint.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> In my opinion, a lot of people have given you very good advice.



I think some people are. I know I really appreciated the advice I got from you.



fuelingfire said:


> I don't want you to take what I am saying/asking as an insult. Could you give us more examples of your goals? Or experiences?



My goals are simple. I'm interested in a friendship/relationship, where I can safely and fully share my feelings about beauty, and be appreciated, validated... even just tolerated in that. That's why I asked the initial question about how anyone can be expected to enter into a relationship, if they're not permitted to express themselves.



fuelingfire said:


> The woman you met at your first real job... unfortunately not everyone is interested. It is a healthy idea, that once you realize that someone is not interested in advances from you (especially a coworker who you will see daily at work), to walk away from the idea of her.



Idea, yes, but I still remember the lessons I learned from the experience, and I've had two other, similar experiences since then, which lasted a much shorter period of time. In each case, the woman was (by my estimation) pretty, and in each case, I got those strange looks from them whenever I paid attention to them directly. Neither one expressed any interest in talking to me when I addressed them directly, though, so I just let them be. I've had other experiences of casually interacting with other pretty people in my current job, but all of them are married already, so the only real function of these interactions has been to give me a chance to practice friendly discussion. Still, even after years, it's no easy task, and I have difficulty spending more than a few minutes talking to either one, while maintaining composure. In fact, I eventually had to gain some weight myself, just so that I could distract myself, during a period when I had to work with one of them on a frequent basis. Most of my other interactions were in my school days, when I hadn't really worked up enough courage to face my feelings, much less a girl.

I did, however, have one experience in High School, where I was so afraid to even sit next to one person (for various reasons,) that I realized what a problem it was to be too cowardly in this area. I committed, worked at it, and I've never had that problem since, and in a way, it indirectly lead to perhaps the most memorable experience/s of my life.



fuelingfire said:


> You made it sound like you were trying for months. Odds are, if you had a chance with her, it wouldn't take that long. The odd looks you were receiving was the strong hint.



That's the other problem. I don't intuit in the same way most people do, and the only way I ever pick up on hints is if I can analyze them, or recognize them as part of a pattern. Thanks for pointing this hint out to me, because now, I'll know to be on the lookout for that.


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## fuelingfire (Mar 7, 2017)

There seems to be two topics here. 1. You want to be in a relationship. 2. You want to say how you feel about fat women. I think this thread has talked about the second topic a great deal. The best complement you can give a woman (including fat women) is “You look beautiful!” There is no complement you can say that will top that, regardless of how you feel.

For the first topic. I am going to generalize a bit here. This applies to even non-FAs. 
Unfortunately, I don’t know what is happening that you have received strange looks from women. If you notice it again, take note of what events happened right before then. It is very important that you figure out what is causing this reaction.

I don’t know your age. But I would ignore most FA experiences before that age of 18. Peers can be cruel, especially in high school. In high school I just wanted to fit in. I didn’t come out of the FA closet until about a year after high school.

You might be building up women you know to much in your mind, creating stress. If you have seen the movie “The 40 Year Old Virgin,” for easy reference, they refer to this as “putting the pussy on the pedestal.” I am not really a fan of the phrase. When I was in high school I did do this a lot. I would say, you should view rejection as fairly normal. No one is universally liked. If being rejected by someone is bothering you, this is the likely scenario. 

If you need to work on your flirting skills, I would advise you to try flirting with women you are not really interested in. There will be less stress, because you are not really loosing anything if the girl is not interested. This will help you when you do run into the fat woman you are looking for. Otherwise you might blow opportunities when they come your way.

Though I haven’t looked, I am sure youtube has a bunch of videos on how to flirt with women. That could give to tips to improve. I would say the most important are remember to smile, seem confident (practicing flirting a lot can help you actually be confident), and a proper amount of eye contact. It gets easier.


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## landshark (Mar 7, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> If she didn't consider fatness to be one of her characteristics, there would be no reason for her to get upset. Confused, certainly, but not upset.



You're still missing it, but I'll try again, using my own wife as an example. She will be the first to tell you that "fat" is part of her physical characteristics. She has overheard people say, "look at that fat woman" and she knows they're talking about her. She has described herself as a fat woman from a strictly physical standpoint. 

However, she does not define herself as a fat woman. In other words, she does not consider that who she is. There are plenty of other things she identifies as the essence of her being. She's a wife, mother, friend to her friends, etc...a person of value with certain values she considers more defining of HER than her physical characteristics.

The proof is in this: if she loses weight she is unlikely to be a wildly different person. There may some marginal changes due to confidence gained, energy levels being higher, etc. but the person she is, the "who" she is, wouldn't be that different from the fat version of her.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> There seems to be two topics here. 1. You want to be in a relationship. 2. You want to say how you feel about fat women.



The second as much as, if not more than the first.



fuelingfire said:


> I think this thread has talked about the second topic a great deal. The best complement you can give a woman (including fat women) is “You look beautiful!” There is no complement you can say that will top that, regardless of how you feel.



I've found "lovely" to have a sort of magic as well, but the problem with both words is that they're pseudonyms for what's really trying to get out. Also, I can't explain either one any further without revealing how I really feel, and we're back to square 1.

I'm not sure a pseudonym would work, in terms of expression. I've tried them a few times in the past, and I don't remember feeling any less stressed as a result.



fuelingfire said:


> Unfortunately, I don’t know what is happening that you have received strange looks from women. If you notice it again, take note of what events happened right before then. It is very important that you figure out what is causing this reaction.



You mean, try to find some common factor between the various instances, which might be causing them?



fuelingfire said:


> I don’t know your age. But I would ignore most FA experiences before that age of 18.



I was awkward before, during, and after that age, so I'm not too concerned by what happened back then. Still, if what you say is true, it's a shame I haven't kept in touch with anyone from those days.



fuelingfire said:


> Peers can be cruel, especially in high school. In high school I just wanted to fit in. I didn’t come out of the FA closet until about a year after high school.



I never really wanted to fit in, and I wanted to come out of the closet, but was too scared I'd be given detention or something (at first, I had *no* idea what was considered appropriate and what wasn't in a high school environment, so I kept to myself a lot.)



fuelingfire said:


> You might be building up women you know to much in your mind, creating stress.



Oh. No, I don't think that's the issue. I remember those women pretty well, and I remember their positive traits, and I remember their faults (they all had some of both, as I think nearly everyone does.) I remember a few being uncommonly pretty in my eyes, and I might be looking at that memory through rose-colored glasses, but those early sightings had a profound effect on my emotional development.



fuelingfire said:


> I would say, you should view rejection as fairly normal. No one is universally liked. If being rejected by someone is bothering you, this is the likely scenario.



I don't think you can blame me for doing whatever I can to try to minimize my chances of failure and disappointment. Like my feelings about beauty, my feelings about failure can be very strong and overpowering, but as I've said before, I have some practice at ignoring them. I can handle it. Rejection is only a problem insofar as it serves as a barrier that keeps me from the finish line, and I want to learn whatever I can to get around those barriers.



fuelingfire said:


> If you need to work on your flirting skills, I would advise you to try flirting with women you are not really interested in.



I've thought about this in the past. Genuine opportunities are rare, and it'd be nice to have a method ready, in case I happen to run into one all of a sudden.



fuelingfire said:


> There will be less stress, because you are not really loosing anything if the girl is not interested.



That might make things easier, though most of my stress comes from feelings I'm not expressing, rather than the pressure of the situation. In a real way, my feelings are a worse enemy to me than the entire world is.



fuelingfire said:


> Though I haven’t looked, I am sure youtube has a bunch of videos on how to flirt with women. That could give to tips to improve. I would say the most important are remember to smile, seem confident (practicing flirting a lot can help you actually be confident), and a proper amount of eye contact. It gets easier.



I've actually got a lot of that down already; especially with regards to the smile, the eye contact and the confidence. In fact, my impulse is to look into the eyes of most people automatically. Thanks for all the advice... man? Man, I guess. It's really cool, and I totally appreciate it. I don't know if it'll work, but I'll try to free up some time to look into all of this.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

happily_married said:


> You're still missing it, but I'll try again, using my own wife as an example. She will be the first to tell you that "fat" is part of her physical characteristics. She has overheard people say, "look at that fat woman" and she knows they're talking about her. She has described herself as a fat woman from a strictly physical standpoint.
> 
> However, she does not define herself as a fat woman. In other words, she does not consider that who she is. There are plenty of other things she identifies as the essence of her being. She's a wife, mother, friend to her friends, etc...a person of value with certain values she considers more defining of HER than her physical characteristics.
> 
> The proof is in this: if she loses weight she is unlikely to be a wildly different person. There may some marginal changes due to confidence gained, energy levels being higher, etc. but the person she is, the "who" she is, wouldn't be that different from the fat version of her.



Ah! I think I got it! You're referring to "accidents!"

In philosophy, there are things called "accidents," which are qualities that a person or thing possesses, which aren't necessary, in order for it to be what it is. For example, George can get an inch higher, or a pound lighter, or a year older, and he's still George. Is that basically what you mean?


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## landshark (Mar 7, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Ah! I think I got it! You're referring to "accidents!"
> 
> In philosophy, there are things called "accidents," which are qualities that a person or thing possesses, which aren't necessary, in order for it to be what it is. For example, George can get an inch higher, or a pound lighter, or a year older, and he's still George. Is that basically what you mean?



PAYDIRT!

Yes, that is exactly what I'm getting at. And for a woman who considers her weight an "accident" you drawing attention to it, no matter how well intended, is a tricky proposition.


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## fuelingfire (Mar 7, 2017)

“Lovely” can back fire. It is a word someone who wants to say “I love you” but isn’t ready to say it yet. It can weird women out. I was under the impression you were having issues getting into relationships, but might have misread something.

If you are not close to dating or dating the woman, you don’t really need to tell them how you feel about fat women. So there is no real need to worry about it.

Rejection will help you get to the finish line. Not a lot of fat women are hoping to find a guy who wants to rub their tummy daily.

You make it sound like you don’t have a lot of female options, are you in a small city or isolated area? You can try feabie, wooplus, or largefriends. You could worry less because people signing up for these sites know you like fat women.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

happily_married said:


> PAYDIRT!
> 
> Yes, that is exactly what I'm getting at. And for a woman who considers her weight an "accident" you drawing attention to it, no matter how well intended, is a tricky proposition.



Well, I've got to figure out some way to pull off that trick, or something similar to it. Maybe, since I know what it's like to prefer being thought of in terms of qualities, abilities, accomplishments, etc, I can find a way to explain why these sorts of qualities are good, and should be enjoyed. After all, we all have accidents, and there's really no reason to dislike them, just because they're accidents.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> “Lovely” can back fire. It is a word someone who wants to say “I love you” but isn’t ready to say it yet. It can weird women out. I was under the impression you were having issues getting into relationships, but might have misread something.



It's alright. I wasn't 100% clear, so let me try to clear it up.



fuelingfire said:


> If you are not close to dating or dating the woman, you don’t really need to tell them how you feel about fat women.



Yes there is; just not for the purpose of impressing anyone. See, this is it; the end goal. The finish line. The final hurrah. Explaining my feeling fully, completely and without the fear of being condemned is the big *it* for me. I hope that makes it a bit clearer.



fuelingfire said:


> Rejection will help you get to the finish line. Not a lot of fat women are hoping to find a guy who wants to rub their tummy daily.



In terms of physical contact, I basically have that covered. As I said, I gained some weight a while back *specifically because* I was about to go nuts *for this reason.* Now I'm not. I just have to reach one arm over to the other whenever my hand starts to feel antsy and alone. It's just the freedom to express these feelings to someone else that's missing.



fuelingfire said:


> You make it sound like you don’t have a lot of female options, are you in a small city or isolated area? You can try feabie, wooplus, or largefriends. You could worry less because people signing up for these sites know you like fat women.



Thank you for offering so much help. I definitely think I can use some of this.


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## landshark (Mar 7, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Well, I've got to figure out some way to pull off that trick, or something similar to it. *Maybe, since I know what it's like to prefer being thought of in terms of qualities, abilities, accomplishments, etc, *I can find a way to explain why these sorts of qualities are good, and should be enjoyed. After all, we all have accidents, and there's really no reason to dislike them, just because they're accidents.



Man, now we are getting somewhere! Here's a thought: as FF has suggestion you don't need to go over the top complimenting her physical appearance. It's likely to be dismissed as patronizing anyway. Do compliment her appearance, just don't be cliche or overly raving. 

From there you look for commonalities or character traits you've discerned and use those as your avenue to getting to know her better. For example, consider where it was where you first met, or what she was doing, etc. Maybe there's a mutual interest, a hobby or a cause of some kind, that you can talk to her about. You get to know HER better that way. 

It adds up over time. It takes patience but it's worth it.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

happily_married said:


> Man, now we are getting somewhere! Here's a thought: as FF has suggestion you don't need to go over the top complimenting her physical appearance. It's likely to be dismissed as patronizing anyway. Do compliment her appearance, just don't be cliche or overly raving.



It might be tough for me to figure out where that balance is at first. As I've said before, my feelings are intense, and my weakness with regard to understanding cues is likely to get in the way as well. I wonder if there's some method to... Well, I guess it would somewhat depend on what kind of person you were talking to, wouldn't it?



happily_married said:


> From there you look for commonalities or character traits you've discerned and use those as your avenue to getting to know her better. For example, consider where it was where you first met, or what she was doing, etc. Maybe there's a mutual interest, a hobby or a cause of some kind, that you can talk to her about. You get to know HER better that way.



Actually, my preference (ever since that early-job occurrence I mentioned in one of my other replies) has been to seek out a lot of information about the person right off the bat, so that I have something to work off of, and am not just going into it blind.


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## fuelingfire (Mar 7, 2017)

Without being condemned for it… You can ignore others response. But people love expressing their opinions. I don’t think anyone has much advice on how to do it.


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## landshark (Mar 7, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> It might be tough for me to figure out where that balance is at first. As I've said before, my feelings are intense, and my weakness with regard to understanding cues is likely to get in the way as well. I wonder if there's some method to... *Well, I guess it would somewhat depend on what kind of person you were talking to, wouldn't it?*



Definitely. And finding that balance with one may be easier than another. Everyone is different so you can't run one play successfully with one and automatically expect it to work on another. 

Hell, even with the same person balance is constant challenge! Something I say to my wife works one day but not the next based on her mood. Sometimes I don't pick up on the difference until it's too late!:doh:


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Without being condemned for it *You can ignore others response. *But people love expressing their opinions. I dont think anyone has much advice on how to do it.



Maybe that's it then. Maybe I just have to be who I am (outside of scenarios requiring special behavior patterns like work, church, etc...,) and ignore the responses, or supplement with my imagination some more. I hate to have to do that, because I'd like to think a better solution could be found. You'd think that, given how many people suffer under this state of affairs (treated as odd because of some part of themselves that they never chose to have,) we'd all be putting just a little more effort into fixing this.

The whole thing just seems weird to me, like an old Addams Family episode.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 7, 2017)

happily_married said:


> Definitely. And finding that balance with one may be easier than another. Everyone is different so you can't run one play successfully with one and automatically expect it to work on another.



This is why I used the word "method." It can sometimes be a specific play or plan of action (there are a few stimuli that *always* make me mad, relieved, sad, etc, for example,) and sometimes, it can be closer to an algorithm, with branching paths, depending on various factors. The challenge is to deduce the paths from limited information, so that I can know whether there's a reasonable hope at the earliest possible moment.


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## fuelingfire (Mar 7, 2017)

I wouldn’t really say that I suffer though. I can’t think of a situation that I encounter, where I want to say something about fat women and I don’t. I don’t go out of my way to make comments unless they are appropriate to the situation.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 7, 2017)

As you profess to be, I am alarmingly inept at picking up subtle cues and clues, particularly those that may indicate that someone holds me in positive regard. 

Somehow, though, I've managed to navigate the 'fat' thing. There have been a few occasions in which I've been allowed to express those feelings (and even use the word 'fat' in a positive way and have it be taken that way) upon first meeting a woman. Not first date: first meeting. Some have even told me their weight during our first conversation. 

Of course, there were some relationships in which neither the word nor the sentiment were expressed. Did I feel stifled by this? No. 

For me, having is more important than reiterating what I have. For me, mind you. This does not presuppose a higher level of maturity or moral fortitude (believe me), but just a difference. 

Tell her she's beautiful, but not as a conversation opener. Tell her you noticed her. Or that you remember seeing her around. Tell her you're always glad when you happen to meet. 

Trust breeds trust. 

If you are suspicious of her reactions to you, even those she may hold private, you will act suspicious, and she will pick up on that. 

Trust her not to hurt you. 

Be open, but don't leer.

Don't put her physicality first, conversationally. 

If you want her comfortable with you, be comfortable with her. 

Intimacy (I'm talking the emotional kind) is for those who connect. Stop thinking of it as a finish line or a goal. Once achieved, it must continue to be strived for. Or striven. Yeah, spellcheck likes that better. 

True expression will come. It will be more than tolerated; it will be necessary. 

In early stages, though, you don't want to come across like that 'radical truth' guy on Lie To Me, so hang back. Truth is truth. It's not gone in a moment. There will be time to express it as the relationship develops.


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## petersmyth79 (Mar 7, 2017)

To the OP. No woman is ever going to be okay with you expressing your feeling (on whatever number date) about a specific aspect of their body unless they are totally comfortable with you AND are in the first place at least okay with that aspect of their physical appearance; which they may not be in the least. I have dated women that really hate being anything other than thin, these women were big and it didn't take very long for me to figure out that I could never make them like their big body. Imagine it like being a guy that loves women with MASSIVE boobs; I can't imagine any scenario dating or meeting the first time that it would even be okay to express that to her (if she brings up an aspect of her body then you could carefully tell her you like her curves etc. but the exact way you say anything will have a big impact on how she feels about what you think), weight is the same really in that it is so very personal. Also guys that really like big women will tend make a big deal about her weight which would then shift the focus off personality, interests, life etc and on to the fairly superficial topic of physical appearance/looks; which I place alongside talking about her boobs whatever. The fact that you're showing interest in a woman does communicate that you do (at least in some ways) think she is good to look at. I apologise if I missed the mark partially or completely.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> I wouldn’t really say that I suffer though. I can’t think of a situation that I encounter, where I want to say something about fat women and I don’t. I don’t go out of my way to make comments unless they are appropriate to the situation.



It sounds like our feelings are different, then.

P.S.: What I mean is that I tend to avoid comments that aren't appropriate to the situation too, but for me, that just makes the need to say them in some other venue stronger. I've referred to this, in the past, as emotional reflux, and I'm not exaggerating. It really does feel like I'm filling with emotional thumb tacks whenever I sit on comments about weight; especially these days.

Lately, I've been trying to let it out a little, like saying "it's your life," whenever someone expresses a desire to lose weight, but it's not enough by half.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

FreeThinker said:


> Of course, there were some relationships in which neither the word nor the sentiment were expressed. Did I feel stifled by this? No.
> 
> For me, having is more important than reiterating what I have. For me, mind you. This does not presuppose a higher level of maturity or moral fortitude (believe me), but just a difference.



Yes. This is a *big* difference between us.



FreeThinker said:


> Trust her not to hurt you.



In a certain sense, that boat has kind of sailed.

I mean, I *want* to trust someone again, which is why I'm still on the lookout for someone I can be open with, but this attitude of trust is not reconcilable with the view that rejection is normative, which I responded to just a bit ago.



FreeThinker said:


> Don't put her physicality first, conversationally.



Do you mean first in priority, or first in a timeline sense?



FreeThinker said:


> If you want her comfortable with you, be comfortable with her.



That's just the thing! I can't be comfortable! I can never be comfortable! Not until I can get this off my chest, and that's looking more and more unlikely with each passing day! I have literally no means of doing what you suggest!



FreeThinker said:


> Stop thinking of it as a finish line or a goal.



Umm... No. There's an opportunity I want. I don't have that opportunity. It is therefore a goal.



FreeThinker said:


> In early stages, though, you don't want to come across like that 'radical truth' guy on Lie To Me, so hang back. Truth is truth. It's not gone in a moment. There will be time to express it as the relationship develops.



Truth is everlasting and indelible. The risk is that I'll burst before my feelings become fully accepted.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

petersmyth79 said:


> Also guys that really like big women will tend make a big deal about her weight which would then shift the focus off personality, interests, life etc and on to the fairly superficial topic of physical appearance/looks; which I place alongside talking about her boobs whatever. The fact that you're showing interest in a woman does communicate that you do (at least in some ways) think she is good to look at. I apologise if I missed the mark partially or completely.



I'm skipping over the doom and gloom parts, and going straight to this.

As I've said, I *need* to express these feelings. That's the *main goal* and *primary purpose* that I'm looking to fulfill. If she can't help with that, that's not okay for me.

If she *can,* but there's some price or condition involved, it's more than probable that I'd be willing to pay that price, but I can't change what I need. If I could, I wouldn't ever be in another relationship again.

For this reason, it's not enough to *imply* my feelings. I must *express* them. There's no other option. I have no choice. I'll do this in a relationship, or I'll do it outside of one, but any relationship that requires me to sit on them (and I mean, *for good*) is not worth the massive price of admission.

I know lots of people who have personalities, and while I *can* and *do* get to know people on a personal level, I outright *refuse* to pretend that I can be in a relationship with someone, and conceal, for months, the biggest, strongest and most persistent part of my feelings about them.

I hope you don't think I'm offended or anything. I'm really not. But "abandon all hope, ye who enter here" isn't the advice I need.


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## petersmyth79 (Mar 8, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I'm skipping over the doom and gloom parts, and going straight to this.
> 
> As I've said, I *need* to express these feelings. That's the *main goal* and *primary purpose* that I'm looking to fulfill. If she can't help with that, that's not okay for me.
> 
> ...



Fair enough, for me the way I express my love for big women is to/with my wife. I adore her because of many reasons; one of them being because she is cute and cuddly (big and getting bigger; because she loves her food and I love to spoil her). I don't have to ignore my feelings because she shares my feelings. I am not sure if this is helpful either; but it helps me.


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## Tad (Mar 8, 2017)

TwoSwords: you come across, to me, like a research guy -- like someone who tries to figure things out in a more formal manner than just gut feel. Is that about right? I'm about to list some research material to take a gander at and think about and try to integrate with your experiences. 

I'm not claiming that any of these will answer your questions directly (or even indirectly), but I think they all offer differing view points around some of these issues. I'm also not claiming that I personally agree with / believe in all of these, but that doesn't meant that I don't think they offer a view point worth cogitating on. I'll offer web links, but most of these are/were books, and you might want to read the books for a fuller view on the issues.

The Five Languages of Love
- online quiz here
- Wikipedia article here (but do the quiz first) 

Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus
- Wikipedia article

The Beauty Myth
- Wikipedia article

Fat is a Feminist Issue
- brief article talking about the book on The Guardian

The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense 
- super brief summary of dealing with attacks here: https://adrr.com/aa/overview.html
- Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense blurb at Goodreads
- 'Genderspeak' blurb on Goodreads
- One things she points out often is "Miller's Law of Communication", which you can find summarized on wikipedia here

Happy reading!


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## fuelingfire (Mar 8, 2017)

Is your desire to tell everyone your feelings about fat women new?


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## Tracii (Mar 8, 2017)

I'm getting the feeling two swords can be a bit over bearing around women.
Maybe that s why they don't show interest.


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## LumpySmile (Mar 8, 2017)

Tracii said:


> I'm getting the feeling two swords can be a bit over bearing around women.
> Maybe that s why they don't show interest.




I've been thinking the same thing for at least 30 posts now. Some of the things he's said make me thankful I don't have a daughter living near him. 

Seen a lot of good advice steered toward him and dismissed.

Best advice anyone ever gave me about seeking love is: If you think love's all about what she does for you, or how she makes YOU feel... You're doing it wrong.

But please, don't let me derail the conversation. Pass the popcorn, I'm enjoying the show.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

petersmyth79 said:


> Fair enough, for me the way I express my love for big women is to/with my wife. I adore her because of many reasons; one of them being because she is cute and cuddly (big and getting bigger; because she loves her food and I love to spoil her). I don't have to ignore my feelings because she shares my feelings. I am not sure if this is helpful either; but it helps me.



I'm sure you're not the only one.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

Tad said:


> TwoSwords: you come across, to me, like a research guy -- like someone who tries to figure things out in a more formal manner than just gut feel. Is that about right? I'm about to list some research material to take a gander at and think about and try to integrate with your experiences.
> 
> I'm not claiming that any of these will answer your questions directly (or even indirectly), but I think they all offer differing view points around some of these issues. I'm also not claiming that I personally agree with / believe in all of these, but that doesn't meant that I don't think they offer a view point worth cogitating on. I'll offer web links, but most of these are/were books, and you might want to read the books for a fuller view on the issues.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I'll run some of these through text-to-speech and listen to them when I have a moment.

You're right. I'm a researcher as both a hobby and a job.

P.S.: I just ran through the love language test. Apparently, I'm pretty evenly distributed among the various types, except that I only got one "gifts" answer. Everything else was pretty close, with quality time and physical contact being the highest at 8 each. The other two were a 7 and a 6, though, so it was pretty close.

P.P.S.: I definitely agree that there are differences to be overcome between men and women, as Gray suggests, and I definitely think that the pressures of the mainstream beauty ideal can be chocked up to the existence and prevalence of the media... superficially. However, the media is, to some degree, only a symptom of the larger problem; the prioritizing of the majority to the exclusion of what the minorities would like to see. How to fix this with a system like economics, that necessarily depends on appeals to the majority for advertising, I can't say, but I think that, in concept, the internet is a step in the right direction, since it allows people to create and distribute their own forms of media, for their own minority desires, quickly and inexpensively. That all of this happened in an age where women had entered office and industrial work is, I think, largely coincidental.

P.P.P.S: I do hope Orbach is wrong, however, because that would imply that fatter women are necessarily less willing to give loving relationships a chance. I *have* noticed a trend in that direction, but I assumed it was coincidental, based more on insecurities and assumptions about people's opinions, than on some predetermined scheme to not be loved.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Is your desire to tell everyone your feelings about fat women new?



New? Hard to say. I don't recall having this desire in elementary school, when I first began noticing beauty, and in high school, I wanted to start sharing my feelings with someone, but didn't have the guts, so I worked on that. Since then, I've been trying to drop little tidbits of my feelings here and there, but it's only really in the last several years (7-5 or so,) that I've felt nearly-exasperated at not having such opportunities.

Based on the evidence, I suspect I may have had it for a long time, and that it's just been growing stronger over time, as I've kept my feelings within "reasonable social boundaries."


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

Tracii said:


> I'm getting the feeling two swords can be a bit over bearing around women.
> Maybe that s why they don't show interest.



I suppose that's possible. There aren't really any outward signs that would enable people to differentiate between my obsessive enthusiasm and legitimate mania, except that I can suppress it when I need to; it's just not easy or fun.

I also have a hard time gauging subtle behavioral differences, or balancing emotional expression. I've tended to think of it as "people either want to hear about my feelings (*all the way* on,) or they don't (*all the way* off.)" At work, church, the grocery store, etc, it's all the way off. It's easier just to not let my feelings out at all in those venues, than to try to sort through them all for degrees of "appropriateness" based on some social custom I don't understand or sympathize with.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

LumpySmile said:


> Best advice anyone ever gave me about seeking love is: If you think love's all about what she does for you, or how she makes YOU feel... You're doing it wrong.



Right. Love is a voluntary decision to do what's best for another person. What's best for another person isn't to end up with someone whose only expressible feelings are hated by them, which is why I often end up alone. Still, I'd be okay with changing that.

Failing that opportunity, it doesn't even really need to be love. As I've said, I would *prefer* some sort of legitimate relationship, but any casual friendship will do, provided the friend is willing and able to listen to what I have to say on this topic.


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## DianaSSBBW (Mar 8, 2017)

LumpySmile said:


> I've been thinking the same thing for at least 30 posts now.
> 
> *Seen a lot of good advice steered toward him and dismissed.*
> 
> ...



I think it was on page two that I started to type and felt I did not have the energy to post.

I do admire the courtesy and patience of happily married, Tad, fueling fire and others to try to help. Way to go DIM's family, Thank you!

TwoSwords - The only comment that I would like to add - I could probably guarantee that you will not find a person here - tall, short - skinny, fat or super fat - Male or Female that had not felt rejection or strange in some situations. We create our life by how we handle situations, get back up and keep going.

I could share stories, that if it wasn't because I lived them, I would not believe them. My rejections will not define me, the opportunities I created have.

Hope you find the opportunity to share your feelings.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

DianaSSBBW said:


> TwoSwords - The only comment that I would like to add - I could probably guarantee that you will not find a person here - tall, short - skinny, fat or super fat - Male or Female that had not felt rejection or strange in some situations. We create our life by how we handle situations, get back up and keep going.
> 
> I could share stories, that if it wasn't because I lived them, I would not believe them. My rejections will not define me, the opportunities I created have.
> 
> Hope you find the opportunity to share your feelings.



Thank you, my friend.


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## Tracii (Mar 8, 2017)

I have to ask when you do get a girl to respond and talk to you do you all of a sudden go all in telling her everything about you?
I had a guy ask me out and I thought OK he is cute and chubby so maybe we will have a good time.
The first part of the date was OK then he got real persistent asking questions about sex and what I preferred.
I said look that is not something you ask on a first date.
He said well it was something he wanted to know I said look thats not appropriate at this time I barely know you.
He explained to me he thought being persistent is what women wanted and that they thought it was "cute" .
I said no its not cute and you act like you taking me out was a favor to me because I was fat and I probably couldn't get a date.

Moral of that story is he was overbearing and rude so please don't be that kind of guy.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 8, 2017)

Tracii said:


> I have to ask when you do get a girl to respond and talk to you do you all of a sudden go all in telling her everything about you?
> I had a guy ask me out and I thought OK he is cute and chubby so maybe we will have a good time.
> The first part of the date was OK then he got real persistent asking questions about sex and what I preferred.
> I said look that is not something you ask on a first date.
> ...



I've heard this rumor too, but I think it's a TV fiction.



Tracii said:


> I said no its not cute and you act like you taking me out was a favor to me because I was fat and I probably couldn't get a date.



I suppose that's possible. It's also possible that (like me,) he either has a weak idea what's "appropriate," or just finds that the usual standards of "appropriateness" are virtually unworkable, and (unlike me,) isn't willing to investigate the concept any further (or get creative in finding other solutions) because of that.



Tracii said:


> Moral of that story is he was overbearing and rude so please don't be that kind of guy.



I don't know for sure. I don't have a full transcript of what happened, but if all that happened was what you described, it sounds like he might have just been socially-incompetent. So was I. The only difference was that I'd had the seriousness of sex drilled into me from childhood, so I never considered it something with which to experiment socially.

Now that you've given me one of your stories, let me give you one of mine. It's shorter than the last one I gave, but in a way, it's had even more of an effect on me.

My first ever compliment to a girl outside of high school. She was pretty, and I said so. She argued against this, and I explained with the following words...

"Look, beauty isn't like a certain hair color, which you either have or don't have. Everyone is beautiful. It's just that no one can appreciate beauty of all types. You don't have to worry, because no matter what, there are always people who can appreciate your beauty."

Her response, in full...

"I hate people who like people like me."

The moral of the story; some people are mentally disturbed, so watch out for that.

In answer to your original question, though, if I ever found anyone, I think I'd probably start off by trying to learn as much as possible about her hobbies/interests, then see if she expressed a similar interest in my own interests, and if not, offer some information about hobbies of mine, or thereabouts. That's how I determine if a person is actually interested. From there, on to stage 2; sharing experiences of each others' interests. Again, willingness to reciprocate clears the road for stage 3; compliments. I've never gotten past that third stage, because no one ever wants to accept compliments, but I suppose minor physical contact (hand-holding and the like) would follow.


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## Imp (Mar 8, 2017)

It really is something.

Here a guy goes on a FA board, a place where his admiration is supposed to be accepted and encouraged, and he meets a wall of criticism and condemnation.

Oh, there's plenty of other advice on what to do and how to do it, which he also asked for. It's all offered in the vein of, "You don't know what the hell you're doing"--which admittedly he copped to some as well. That advice generally conforms to the almost completely unuseful truisms that he should be tactful and that if he isn't the other person might feel uncomfortable. Well, duh.

But the guy can't get any positive support for wanting to do nothing but extol someone for being beautiful and sexually appealing. No one even tells him the message that conceptually he should be able to, that there's nothing wrong with his preference, to embrace fat admiration.

And that *gasp* a woman should have the grace to accept admiration and not keep a man under the constant tyranny of her insecurities--and in the end stamp him and his admiration as deviant and oppressive.

Which is something he's suffered from most of his life.

Shame.

TwoSwords, the answer is, within the bounds of tact and reasonable consideration of another person, you should be able to. The people here should be encouraging you to, and should be holding women to a standard of reasonable grace, flexibility, openness and support for others, and acceptance, which are ideals that you'll find in the basic code of conduct for these boards.

Rather than chaining you to the whims of the FA-shaming ninnies.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 9, 2017)

Imp said:


> ...a woman should have the grace to accept admiration and not keep a man under the constant tyranny of her insecurities--and in the end stamp him and his admiration as deviant and oppressive





So you're single, then?

Christ on a crutch. 


Good on you for managing to post this just before International Women's Day ended.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 9, 2017)

TwoSwords, I'm afraid I don't think I can help you. 

Advice has been offered and rejected, albeit politely and in an entertaining fashion. 

I wish you luck in figuring this out.


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## Imp (Mar 9, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I belong to at least five groups that it's still considered acceptable to discriminate against in society.



Intriguing. What are the groups?


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## Tracii (Mar 9, 2017)

Compliments are not a bad thing and yes girls do like them but not every day from the same guy.
I have had that happen too and after week or so it gets creepy.

I have tried to help but it looks like I am no help so good luck.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

Imp said:


> And that *gasp* a woman should have the grace to accept admiration and not keep a man under the constant tyranny of her insecurities--and in the end stamp him and his admiration as deviant and oppressive.



I see I'm not the only one to notice this double standard.



Imp said:


> TwoSwords, the answer is, within the bounds of tact and reasonable consideration of another person, you should be able to. The people here should be encouraging you to, and should be holding women to a standard of reasonable grace, flexibility, openness and support for others, and acceptance, which are ideals that you'll find in the basic code of conduct for these boards.
> 
> Rather than chaining you to the whims of the FA-shaming ninnies.



Thank you. This perspective has been missing from the discussion, and it's most appreciated.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

Imp said:


> Intriguing. What are the groups?



To start with, I'm not thin (1,) and I'm an FA (2.) I'm also a nerd (3,) Catholic (4,) and am rather tradition-minded in my approach to ethics (5.) In reality, I probably belong to more groups than this that are discriminated against in ways endorsed by the popular media, but mostly, they would be related to specific positions I hold that the mainstream doesn't, like certain philosophical or scientific views.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

Tracii said:


> Compliments are not a bad thing and yes girls do like them but not every day from the same guy.
> I have had that happen too and after week or so *it gets creepy.*



This also would seem to be an insecurity over which I have no control. The most I can do is try to be positive as much as possible, and not anticipate emotional disasters before they happen, doing my best to be temperate in the initial stages, before the relationship has fully gotten underway. Once it has, there's no reason why a guy shouldn't be permitted to compliment the woman every time he sees her.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

FreeThinker said:


> So you're single, then?



Do you really think that after having benefited enormously from the sacrifices of others, no woman, anywhere, will be able to make the sacrifice of being gracious and polite to those who love her from time to time?

What a sad statement on the state of modern relationship maturity (or lack thereof.)


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## fuelingfire (Mar 9, 2017)

Imp said:


> It really is something.
> 
> Here a guy goes on a FA board, a place where his admiration is supposed to be accepted and encouraged, and he meets a wall of criticism and condemnation.
> 
> ...



He is not being FA-shamed. He is being given advice on how to give complements in a socially acceptable manner. You are assuming he knows the "the bounds of tact and reasonable consideration of another person." Twoswords, that is in no way meant as an insult. That is a large component of this entire discussion.

I think a lot of the responses have been from seasoned FAs. He doesn't have to listen to us. This advice is being given in the hopes of making, what he wants to do, easier on himself.


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## Tad (Mar 9, 2017)

To go back to the very first post ... I've said a few times that I really see three modes of being an FA (people can be one, two, or all three of these):

- an admirer of fat on the class(es) of people you are sexually attracted to (fat as a sexual preference)

- an admirer of fat on the classes of people you are not sexually attracted to (fat as a general preference)

- an admirer of fat on oneself (I short hand this one as 'auto-FA'), although technically I suppose that this could also be broken down into liking it for sexuality reasons and liking it as a general preference (I suspect that they frequently overlap, but I've certainly seen posts here and there by people who only have one of those).

Two-Swords, you sound like you are all three types (although on the auto-FA side I'm not so clear if your own fat is sexual for you or not), but many FA are only one or two of the types. I'm an 'all of the above' person myself, and I know it took me a while to truly accept that people could legitimately like fat only on some people but not on others -- I could grasp that some people didn't like fat, but the only liking it sometimes puzzled me.

So here is part of the challenge for you. There are far more fat people than there are auto-FA, for whatever basket of reasons. It is not usually obvious who is an auto-FA and who is not. For people who are fat but not admirers of their own size, any compliment to their appearance is apt to bring up all the negative thoughts they may have about their own appearance. This creates a cognitive dissonance -- having two competing ideas in ones mind at once (he thinks I'm beautiful / I know I'm fugly, or whatever). Cognitive Dissonance is uncomfortable, and the most common reaction is to reject one of those concepts so we can get back to a more comfortable state. Given this sort of situation, what is the easier one to reject -- something you have felt for years, possibly most of your life, or the random compliment from someone you may not even know very well? Obviously the latter. Hence the fairly strong rejection that you may get for such compliments.

Now, are there fat female FA out there who love feel beautiful being fat and would love to hear it? For sure. But there aren't so many of them from what I can tell, so the odds of any given person being that combination if fairly rare.

Now, what you can do is modify your compliments to avoid setting up the cognitive dissonance. It isn't being as open or effusive as you might like, but it can get your compliment accepted and you leave the encounter with her more likely to be happy and hopefully you can too. Some won't be happy that you intruded in their world at all, or won't trust any stranger or any compliment, so it is more reliable with people whom you at least have a passing acquaintance with (even if it is just that they've sold you coffee a few times, you are often on the same bus, or whatever). Timed wrong any compliment can be annoying or cheesy, but ... they can work.

i.e. you see a fat woman who you think is gorgeous. Take a moment to take in the details, and compliment one of those that seems like it may be something she would take pride in. "I love that dress on you, it is great!" "Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say that I love the colour of your hair" "Hey Sarah, your makeup is amazing today" "Those Doctor Who leggings are amazing, that is so fun!" (after having been wished a good day) "Thanks -- coming here for coffee and a smile always helps get it off to a good start." 

And then walk away, don't expect it to start a conversation, be reciprocated, or even acknowledged. But you've shown that someone appreciates some of how they present themselves, and that is a start.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> He is not being FA-shamed. He is being given advice on how to give complements in a socially acceptable manner. You are assuming he knows the "the bounds of tact and reasonable consideration of another person." Twoswords, that is in no way meant as an insult. That is a large component of this entire discussion.
> 
> I think a lot of the responses have been from seasoned FAs. He doesn't have to listen to us. This advice is being given in the hopes of making, what he wants to do, easier on himself.



You speak for yourself, and certainly, your advice has been consistently good *and* aimed, for the most part, at my actual goals, but I notice a lot of advice that's more aimed at the goals that the person giving the advice would have in my place.

Even then, they're not *necessarily* trying to shame me (they might just not understand what I mean. I do have a tendency to explain myself poorly from time to time.) However, with remarks about how much I'm rejecting "good advice" and how there's no one in the world who can accept my attentions (or words to that effect,) it *is* a bit hard to see what the intended purpose is, if not to discourage me from real relationships as a whole.

I have noticed one or two commenters, however, who seem to mainly comment along a common theme, and the only reason I'm not pointing this out to them is that I *directly asked* for information on how others handle this. I'm willing to listen to whatever answers they have to give, though I may not necessarily take their advice, if doing so would keep me from my goals.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

Tad said:


> Two-Swords, you sound like you are all three types (although on the auto-FA side I'm not so clear if your own fat is sexual for you or not),



It's not. The feeling of fat in one or both of my hands provides an overwhelming sense of comfort and relief from stress, which helps me to relax and not worry so much for a while. At the moment, it's my only really sure defense against the inner stresses I was discussing earlier, though I do, of course, have other methods. It is definitely a feeling, and a strong one, but not sexual in nature.



Tad said:


> This creates a cognitive dissonance -- having two competing ideas in ones mind at once (he thinks I'm beautiful / I know I'm fugly, or whatever). Cognitive Dissonance is uncomfortable, and the most common reaction is to reject one of those concepts so we can get back to a more comfortable state.



I kind of already know what's causing the problem. The only issue is in finding a solution.

This is why I mentioned scenarios in which I stop what I'm doing to listen to how someone's day went, or tolerate and answer their questions about my day, without looking gloomy. I face situations all the time that make me uncomfortable by nature, because I want to do right by the ones I love.



Tad said:


> It isn't being as open or effusive as you might like, but it can get your compliment accepted and you leave the encounter with her more likely to be happy and hopefully you can too.



It just occurred to me that you might mean for this paragraph to be a guide to basic introductions, in which case, much of what I'm about to say isn't relevant. Introductions are prior to the compliment phase (normally.) If, however, you mean for this to apply to longer-term or progressing relationships of the compliment phase and beyond, then...

Sorry, but... When I use a word, I mean it in precisely the way I use it. So, when I use the word "purpose," or the words "no choice," I mean them in precisely this way. I can divide my expressions into portions if necessary, but I'm afraid that no portion can be acceptable to a person who's already rejected my aesthetics in any sort of committed way. She doesn't necessarily have to be an FA herself, but if she's not, her feelings about fatness would need to be very minor; like something she doesn't think about much, or doesn't think is a big deal, because no one who hates an aspect of themselves; much less one that lies so centrally in my emotional state, can ever be happy with my kind of attention.

Besides, if I want to avoid expressing my feelings, the easiest way is to avoid the direct cause of those feelings.



Tad said:


> i.e. you see a fat woman who you think is gorgeous. Take a moment to take in the details, and compliment one of those that seems like it may be something she would take pride in. "I love that dress on you, it is great!" "Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say that I love the colour of your hair" "Hey Sarah, your makeup is amazing today" "Those Doctor Who leggings are amazing, that is so fun!" (after having been wished a good day) "Thanks -- coming here for coffee and a smile always helps get it off to a good start."



I'm seeing dress, color, hair, makeup, leggings, coffee, and smile... Everything that *isn't* helpful in expressing my feelings. In fact, some of these remarks would be deceptive in my case, since the only kinds of clothing I have any real feeling about are winter coats and hoop skirts.

Well... Glasses too, depending on whether you consider them clothing.

I can totally understand using some of these remarks as early-stage compliments, until you can determine whether the person is compatible, but I'd probably need a good half-hour of squeezing my arm to ignore the tension that would build from having such staggering feelings, and expressing *everything but* those feelings. As I've said before, possible in small doses, but it wouldn't work for a longer period.



Tad said:


> And then walk away, don't expect it to start a conversation, be reciprocated, or even acknowledged. But you've shown that someone appreciates some of how they present themselves, and that is a start.



Meaning, an introduction of sorts. I've done those before, and they're not that hard. Still, I prefer to learn the truth about the other person's feelings quickly, so I know whether I have any reason for making myself suffer further.


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## landshark (Mar 9, 2017)

Imp said:


> And that *gasp* a woman should have the grace to accept admiration and not keep a man under the constant tyranny of her insecurities--and in the end stamp him and his admiration as deviant and oppressive.



That would be nice, wouldn't it?  Rumsfeld once said, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had." Likewise I give my advice based on the reality I've experienced, not the reality I wish I've experienced. It seems reasonable to expect some degree of grace in accepting a compliment but for many reasons this is very difficult for a lot of women. Sometimes it's just uncertainty on their end and in some cases it's their own experiences telling them to be defensive. Whatever their rationale, it's real to them, and therefore it's important to recognize this and know a well meaning compliment may not always be taken at face value.

It would be nice if it was, but I've lived my whole life in a reality where that is just not the case.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

happily_married said:


> That would be nice, wouldn't it? Rumsfeld once said, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had." Likewise I give my advice based on the reality I've experienced, not the reality I wish I've experienced. It seems reasonable to expect some degree of grace in accepting a compliment but for many reasons this is very difficult for a lot of women. Sometimes it's just uncertainty on their end and in some cases it's their own experiences telling them to be defensive. Whatever their rationale, it's real to them, and therefore it's important to recognize this and know a well meaning compliment may not always be taken at face value.
> 
> It would be nice if it was, but I've lived my whole life in a reality where that is just not the case.



It is important to understand your options. That way, you can (to use the army example,) send rations, fuel and ammunition where they're likely to be needed, and plan troop deployments without being distracted.

In my case, though, changing the nature of my feelings has always been a non-option, and expressing them at a small intensity (for long periods,) or not at all have always been non-options. I have other options, if I don't find any in this discussion (I'm creative and have a good imagination,) but that's a topic for another discussion. I'm not going to assume things are that bad until I'm sure it's true.

I will say this; I and those like me are faced with a situation now, where willing ears are at an extremely high premium. There's not a lot of competition, and that's a situation that's begging to be taken advantage of by anyone who's up to the task. Anything that I do, which can serve as an alternate solution to my problem would also have the effect of drastically reducing that premium, and removing the opportunity for profit. That's why I'd rather find a real solution. (Sorry for being vague on this point, but I'm only in the planning stages of a project related to this, so I don't have many specifics to offer, and depending on what I discover here, I may or may not even finish it at all.)


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## Angel (Mar 9, 2017)

Not sure, but something smells... freshly.


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## Kristal (Mar 9, 2017)

Tracii said:


> Compliments are not a bad thing and yes girls do like them but not every day from the same guy.
> I have had that happen too and after week or so it gets creepy.
> 
> I have tried to help but it looks like I am no help so good luck.



Hey Tracii, in *my opinion* this entire thread is about as creepy as creepy gets...


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## TwoSwords (Mar 9, 2017)

Angel said:


> Not sure, but something smells... freshly.





Kristal said:


> Hey Tracii, in *my opinion* this entire thread is about as creepy as creepy gets...



I'm confused too. Freshly? Should I know that term?

Also, thank you so much for implying that it's creepy to want to express distinctly-positive emotions. I wonder if your relatives treat you the same way.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for the people of the planet Vulcan, but I don't really *want* to be one.

In fact, I think I've been quite conciliatory, trying to learn everything I can about what's going on and how to deal with it, based on what's being talked about. There is one thing I refuse to give ground on; only one. I want the freedom to express my feelings of appreciation for the fatness of someone. The fact that, even here, this one, single thing is treated with such hatred is a sign of just how bad things have been permitted to get, and just how much of a double standard some people seem to have around here, that feelings of insecurity are to be coddled in all cases, but feelings of admiration and delight, it's still considered fair game to attack.

P.S.: I wouldn't have said any of that, if only you'd commented in some way relevant to the original post, or any of the discussion that's since followed.


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## Imp (Mar 9, 2017)

happily_married said:


> That would be nice, wouldn't it? Rumsfeld once said, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had." Likewise I give my advice based on the reality I've experienced, not the reality I wish I've experienced. It seems reasonable to expect some degree of grace in accepting a compliment but for many reasons this is very difficult for a lot of women. Sometimes it's just uncertainty on their end and in some cases it's their own experiences telling them to be defensive. Whatever their rationale, it's real to them, and therefore it's important to recognize this and know a well meaning compliment may not always be taken at face value.
> 
> It would be nice if it was, but I've lived my whole life in a reality where that is just not the case.



I don't think any of that replaces the importance of upholding a culture that holds people to a standard of graciousness and that expects people to eventually mature. If you want to cross the bridge, you have to pay the toll. That doesn't make the destination worth it.


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## Tracii (Mar 10, 2017)

Just because you have the freedom to express your feelings on fatness with a large woman doesn't mean you should. That depends on the female in question and how she feels about it.
It would be very self centered on your part not to at least honor her opinion on the subject.
If she doesn't mind you obsessing over her fatness then fine but if she doesn't like it are you going to be a dick anyway and make her feel like shit because you only love her for her fatness and not her personality.
Relationships are give and take and never easy so there is work involved to actually get along and make it work.
You seem like its all about you and not about you two as a couple.
You appear to be a very stubborn person not willing to take suggestions to help you work thru your issues..


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## FreeThinker (Mar 10, 2017)

Okay, I can't help you with your dilemma, but maybe you should know why people have a problem with it.





TwoSwords said:


> ...thank you so much for implying that it's creepy to want to express distinctly-positive emotions. I wonder if your relatives treat you the same way.




First, what you describe is not an emotion. It's an urge or a desire. You stated, in replying to me, that you are not prepared to trust a woman. If you don't trust her, you don't have 'distinctly-positive' emotions for her. You may think she looks attractive, but this is not an emotion.





> I want the freedom to express my feelings of appreciation for the fatness of someone.




You've got that freedom. Be prepared that some may exercise their freedom not to want to hear it.

In the case of those who may have been derided for their appearance, the mere mention of their physical presentation could justifiably set off some alarms. Self-acceptance is *self*-acceptance, not *your* acceptance. 

Of course there are many women of size who are completely comfortable with their appearance, who revel in it, and who are quite aware (without a validating opinion from a male) that they are attractive. To have this reiterated ad nauseum could be taken as an implication that perhaps they _should_ be considered unattractive by most people, save for the White Knight graciously bestowing his praise.

And then there's the 'creep' factor.

Effusive praise for one's physical attributes from a stranger or casual acquaintance is...well, it's creepy. 

You don't get to decide what creeps someone out, any more than you can dictate what they should feel good about.





> The fact that, even here, this one, single thing is treated with such hatred is a sign of just how bad things have been permitted to get, and just how much of a double standard some people seem to have around here, that feelings of insecurity are to be coddled in all cases, but feelings of admiration and delight, it's still considered fair game to attack.




There is no double standard at play here. I would wager that, without 'feelings of insecurity' (on the part of large women) to battle, you'd find it difficult to present yourself as a savior solely by dint of your dropping a few 'nice' words. 

Perhaps I misread you, though.

Why would someone's 'insecurity' not be worthy of consideration? 

_'Coddled'?_ Is that what common decency looks like to you?

Nobody is attacking 'feelings of admiration and delight'. What's being attacked is borderline harassment.



*Please Note:*

I do not profess to speak on behalf of the Dimensions population _en masse_. We are not a monolith.

I am only expressing opinions based on empathy, respect, and consideration. These opinions are almost certainly not representative of those held by every last poster here. 

Rest assured, there could be _many_ reasons people have taken exception to your views.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 10, 2017)

Imp said:


> I don't think any of that replaces the importance of upholding a culture that holds people to a standard of graciousness and that expects people to eventually mature.




Well-said. Not a 'double standard'. A _standard._





> If you want to cross the bridge, you have to pay the toll.




I'll probably steal that one.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 10, 2017)

Imp said:


> I don't think any of that replaces the importance of upholding a culture that holds people to a standard of graciousness and that expects people to eventually mature. *If you want to cross the bridge, you have to pay the toll. That doesn't make the destination worth it.*



This is it exactly. A toll is one thing, and it's a toll I'm probably willing to pay, provided what's on the other side is something I can tolerate.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 10, 2017)

Tracii said:


> Just because you have the freedom to express your feelings on fatness with a large woman doesn't mean you should. That depends on the female in question and how she feels about it.
> It would be very self centered on your part not to at least honor her opinion on the subject.



I do this every day. As I've said before, I have several fat women who I know, who I don't express my feelings to for various reasons. Some because they hate the way they look and won't be talked out of it, therefore being incompatible, and others because they're already married, and such overt attentions would be... well, probably not appropriate.



Tracii said:


> If she doesn't mind you obsessing over her fatness then fine but if she doesn't like it are you going to be a dick anyway and make her feel like shit because you only love her for her fatness and not her personality.



That depends on whether you consider it "being a d#%k" to decide not to pursue the relationship further, because our emotions are incompatible with each other.



Tracii said:


> Relationships are give and take and never easy so there is work involved to actually get along and make it work.



And I'm willing to do that work, provided the relationship on the other end is something I actually want to continue. Is she?



Tracii said:


> You appear to be a very stubborn person not willing to take suggestions to help you work thru your issues..



Again. I have *no control* over what my feelings are, over how strong they are, or over what I need from relationships. That will not change. Most other things are open to revision. I don't consider that "unwillingness to take suggestions." As I said, I think I've been quite open to various options with regard to achieving this central goal.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 10, 2017)

FreeThinker said:


> First, what you describe is not an emotion. It's an urge or a desire. You stated, in replying to me, that you are not prepared to trust a woman. If you don't trust her, you don't have 'distinctly-positive' emotions for her. You may think she looks attractive, but this is not an emotion.



This is incorrect, and a misunderstanding of my feelings.

Happiness and joy are feelings. Relief is a feeling. These feelings come about under certain conditions, and describing them any better than "I feel relieved/happy" requires going into specifics. If the only feelings I can explain are why I'm angry or miserable, then that's hardly a relationship I can imagine anyone wanting to be a part of.

Secondly, what I said was, and I quote...

"I *want* to trust someone again, which is why I'm still on the lookout for someone I can be open with"

If you have good evidence to think that the person you're talking to is about to jump down your throat for expressing your feelings, trusting them not to would be foolish. No, it's not a positive emotion to mistrust someone, and it's also not a positive emotion to get openly angry at someone who's only trying to pay you a compliment.

P.S.: You could make the same claim (urge, not feeling!) with regard to insecurity. Insecurity is an largely-unwarranted urge to despise good things about yourself, and/or yourself in general. In a certain sense, all emotions are urges.



FreeThinker said:


> In the case of those who may have been derided for their appearance, the mere mention of their physical presentation could justifiably set off some alarms. Self-acceptance is *self*-acceptance, not *your* acceptance.



I don't expect anyone to accept me right away, but they'll have to do it at some point, or that's not much of a relationship, is it?



FreeThinker said:


> Of course there are many women of size who are completely comfortable with their appearance, who revel in it, and who are quite aware (without a validating opinion from a male) that they are attractive. To have this reiterated ad nauseum could be taken as an implication that perhaps they _should_ be considered unattractive by most people, save for the White Knight graciously bestowing his praise.



I'm sorry to hear that, because as I've said, this is the one matter in which I have basically no choice. Yes, I can *understand,* in *theory,* how a person could think that black is white in this way, but unless there's some way for me to head this off and prevent it, I'm willing to accept that there's not much I can really do about it.



FreeThinker said:


> You don't get to decide what creeps someone out, any more than you can dictate what they should feel good about.



Or what I feel good/bad about. Admittedly true, but I seriously don't think that Kristal grew more and more emotionally stressed by leaps and bounds, the longer she avoided posting that here, which is just about all I can think of that would have justified it. I mean, it's not relevant.



FreeThinker said:


> There is no double standard at play here. I would wager that, without 'feelings of insecurity' (on the part of large women) to battle, you'd find it difficult to present yourself as a savior solely by dint of your dropping a few 'nice' words.



*With* those feelings, it's *impossible* to be even *liked.*

And yes, there is a blasted double standard. One class of people's feelings are being treated as trumping the feelings of another class of people. That's the application of different rules of conduct to different groups, which is what a double standard is.

I also don't appreciate the implication that I could, do or have take advantage of people's insecurities to make my feelings seem more legitimate. Ever since high school, I've sworn that I'd never inflict myself on any women until I knew it could work. It's why I start, as I said, with baby steps, and never manage to get past them due to the awful, awful insecurity that everyone seems to nurse.

Now, insecurity is an emotion of a sort (fear, essentially,) and I'm not fully convinced that people can alter their emotional state, but I *am* convinced that people can exercise effort, to face their fears, just as I, every day, face my far-stronger emotions and conquer them, in spite of the harm it does to my own emotional and psychological state. I think it's quite reasonable to expect people to accept at least *some* responsibility for the blasted choices they've made, instead of loading everything on me.



FreeThinker said:


> Why would someone's 'insecurity' not be worthy of consideration?



It is, provided that person is also willing to show consideration for the feelings of others, and doesn't demonstrate all the signs of someone who just snaps at every emotional (as you say) urge that occurs to them.

I've never criticized happily_married's suggestion that self-control should be practiced. I think it should be. I do it every day. The problem is that I seem to be the only one holding up a mountain here, while everyone else grins, and laughs, and cries, and gets mad over minutiae, and I'm sick of being that guy who shoulders the whole burden, while others shift responsibility.



FreeThinker said:


> _'Coddled'?_ Is that what common decency looks like to you?
> 
> Nobody is attacking 'feelings of admiration and delight'. What's being attacked is borderline harassment.



Incorrect. Harassment is a very specific thing; namely; "aggressive pressure or intimidation." If anyone is being harassed in this context, I am, by my own blasted emotions.

In a business or workplace context, harassment represents threats or the withholding of business rewards or payments in exchange for *sexual* favors of one sort or another (sometimes even just things like style of dress.) I have done nothing of the sort. Instead, I took the very reasonable position that a relationship cannot work if one of the people involved is entirely committed to opposing the normal feelings of the other person.



FreeThinker said:


> I do not profess to speak on behalf of the Dimensions population _en masse_. We are not a monolith.
> 
> I am only expressing opinions based on empathy, respect, and consideration.



Not for everyone, and that's the problem.



FreeThinker said:


> Rest assured, there could be _many_ reasons people have taken exception to your views.



In a very real way, I *expect* people to find me challenging. None of my views, after all, are popular or well-liked (at least, none of the ones I've expressed here.) However, this has been such a big trend in my life that, past a certain point, I had to learn to justify myself with reason, rather than relying on others, who had only criticism to offer. I can do that now; I can present reasons for the things I say, do and even for my feelings, and as far as I can see, that's a darn sight more work than most people have put into examining their emotions. I still don't think that anything I've said here has been unreasonable or unfair. If anyone should be capable of accepting that the world contains people of many kinds, who should be treated, at the very least, with respect, and perhaps even some degree of sympathy for their struggle, (especially in cases where people are blasted determined to tell them that they have no hope, and no one will ever love them,) it's the people on this board, yet I see no degree of tolerance whatsoever when it's something you don't already like...

...Which is blasted hilarious, when you consider that that "something" is the whole reason this section of the board exists.

I'll keep watching this thread for useful tidbits, but I'm about ready to say, "forget this!"

Oh, and by the way...



FreeThinker said:


> Effusive praise for one's physical attributes from *a stranger or casual acquaintance is...well, it's creepy.*



Let's say, I don't feel like shouldering the emotional burden of responding to this, because I hate repeating myself, and that makes me feel uncomfortable, so instead, I just wave to you and tell you to re-read the entire thread, to learn why this doesn't apply to me (and it doesn't. I've explained that in spades.) Given that you've never asked me to do this, would that be fair to you?

To me, feeling uncomfortable around others has become a normal part of life, because others despise everything I treasure, and they're *very* open about it (on this issue and on numerous others.) Well, I see no reason whatsoever why they should have total license to terrify me by telling me that they think I've lost weight, but I can't even say anything *good* without being branded a degenerate. (And before you tell me I should consider how they feel, I *do,* [a consideration that I am *not* receiving in return, if you'll notice,] but I don't *feel* their *feelings.* I *can't,* so my knowledge of how they feel does nothing to make this situation any more fair. That's the point.)

I don't know whether you meant this comment to be an actual response to what I'd said, or just to the thread topic itself, so I don't know how I feel about it, other than confused.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 10, 2017)

My mistake, then. 

_You're_ the victim.



Some people find martyrdom hot, so you're welcome.


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## TwoSwords (Mar 10, 2017)

FreeThinker said:


> My mistake, then.
> 
> _You're_ the victim.



I dearly hope that's not all that you absorbed from what I said. I thought my points were very well-reasoned. At the least, I don't _see_ any logical errors when I read them over.

Actually, no. I'm not a victim, because I won't allow myself to be. If a relationship seems to be turning into that, I reconsider the relationship. That person I mentioned, whose remarks horrified me so much? I've done my best to avoid them. It's rational and acceptable to avoid people if your emotions are incompatible with theirs. But don't try to tell me I'm alone in the world. I'm not. No one is.


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## Imp (Mar 10, 2017)

FreeThinker said:


> I'll probably steal that one.



Careful. Disney's fanatical about rights.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuwuMh3PmwM[/ame] 1:55


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## Tad (Mar 10, 2017)

I'm locking this thread, as I think it has gone beyond the point of productive discussion. People have said their bit, the OP has responded, and I think letting it run farther is not going to be productive.


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