# Abandonment Issues and How They Affect Your Life



## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 15, 2009)

> *What Is Fear Of Abandonment?*
> Simon Hearn, PhD is a registered psychologist who has written several articles about psychological disorders including his article on Denisboyd.com entitled Fear of Abandonment. Hearn describes fear of abandonment as a psychological disorder where the individual suffering from this illness cannot control the fear that he or she feels when faced with the idea of having to cope with life and its difficulties alone.
> 
> Anyone can be diagnosed with fear of abandonment; it is not age or gender specific. Men and women have been equally diagnosed with fear of abandonment, and it is very prevalent in children as well, especially children who have parents who are physically present, but emotionally unavailable. The foundation for fear of abandonment can be set in childhood, but will not manifest until the individual is on his or her own in the world, no longer supported in any way by adults or parents.
> http://www.lifescript.com/Soul/Self/Growth/Understanding_Fear_Of_Abandonment.aspx





> Sometimes the causes of your abandonment issues are painfully obvious. But even if you weren't literally abandoned, fear of abandonment is said to be the first fear of all infants.
> 
> And then there is life itself:
> 
> ...





> UNRESOLVED ABANDONMENT
> 
> Unresolved abandonment - - the source of our insecurities, addictions, compulsions, and distress.
> 
> ...




My father "left me" when I was very young....my older sister (my counselor later explained to me that she was my second mother or my "idea of a normal woman" since she was ten years older) left me a year and a half later. 
The Person Who Raised Me aka my older brother left five years after her. All that was left was my Mom...then she left, too. However, my mother had "abandoned" me in many ways long before that...

I think all that has stayed with me....and has affected every relationship with a man I have ever had. I don't "cling" but more like....I have to feel firmly ensconced....or cocooned with a relationship that is too smothering. I keep ending up with "jealous men".....relationships with them are abusive....and the jealousy isn't even about me....it's more about their insecurities. 
My intelligent, logical mind recognizes that......but my emotional mind screams for something else....

What can be done? I want to move on.....

Any experiences you want to share? Things you have learned? Can those abandonment issues be overcame?


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## steely (Sep 16, 2009)

That's very interesting, GEF. I have extreme abandonment issues, alcoholic father, co-depedent mother, 5 siblings. No time for any attention, nurturing, love, nothing. I was abandoned at birth, even though my parents didn't divorce until I was 13.

I went the the opposite direction. I rarely trust anyone, never got involved with many men, just kept everyone out. The man I married, when he tries to care for me I feel smothered. I can't handle that kind of attachment. It's too close. Damaged in so many ways, I don't exactly know how to love. My sister told me the other night for the first time in 48 years that she loved me.

At 41, I'm not sure if I can change or even want to change. I don't think I would know how. That's my experience and I don't know that it helps but there it is.


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## littlefairywren (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi ladies. 

My father also abandoned me at the age of 7 and even though I do not like to admit it, it does affect the way I view men and relationships somewhat.

Like you steely I do not trust easily, I prefer to keep mostly to myself and I am convinced I would make a good hermit. But that scares me so I keep myself around people in case. I love men but after a marriage full of him walking out time and again and then changing his mind while he constantly drank himself to death has not helped.

But when it comes to relationships I also like feeling ensconced I think you said GEF (hope I got that right). It makes me feel safe and I have a thing about feeling safe.

Of course no solutions, but seems to be a common bond somewhat


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## Fat.n.sassy (Sep 18, 2009)

Oh my gosh, this is such an amazing thread! Thanks very much for bringing it forward. I know abandonment issues have haunted most of my life. To that end, I became very good at being a 'people pleaser'. I thought this would assure people wouldn't leave me. (oh so wrong!) 

There was one time that will stand out in my memory for all time: My sister and I lived with our father and step mother. It was my birthday weekend and dad said my sister and I were going to spend the weekend with mom. I figured, "Ok, I guess I'll have a birthday party when we get back home". Well, what actually happened was that they had packed mine and my sister's clothes in the trunk without us knowing. When we arrived, we were simply told that we were going to stay with her (and the pediphilic step father) _ for a while. I was shocked and really upset and when I started to cry, I was told simply "this is the way it's going to me, I don't want to hear you cry". OMG, I'm crying just relating this story!

Thanks for letting me vent that._


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 18, 2009)

Fat.n.sassy said:


> Oh my gosh, this is such an amazing thread! Thanks very much for bringing it forward. I know abandonment issues have haunted most of my life. To that end, I became very good at being a 'people pleaser'. I thought this would assure people wouldn't leave me. (oh so wrong!)
> 
> There was one time that will stand out in my memory for all time: My sister and I lived with our father and step mother. It was my birthday weekend and dad said my sister and I were going to spend the weekend with mom. I figured, "Ok, I guess I'll have a birthday party when we get back home". Well, what actually happened was that they had packed mine and my sister's clothes in the trunk without us knowing. When we arrived, we were simply told that we were going to stay with her (and the pediphilic step father) _ for a while. I was shocked and really upset and when I started to cry, I was told simply "this is the way it's going to me, I don't want to hear you cry". OMG, I'm crying just relating this story!
> 
> Thanks for letting me vent that._


_


I understand that feeling....like someone yanked the rug out from under you and cared nothing about how much it hurt you.

When I was four, my parents took me with them on a drive in the car one evening. They were looking at an apartment. I asked if we were moving there. They said no, only Daddy was. That confused and upset me. 

That's how they "told me" they were getting divorced. I didn't find out until later about the part where my Mom and the rest of us moved four states away and I only get to see him once or twice a year for the rest of my life. 
When I cried, they told me they would buy me a chocolate ice cream cone. That stands out in my mind as one of the markers in my life of when my eating disorder/food addiction began.

Don't disregard the feelings of your children and console them with ice cream- that's fucked up and nowhere near enough. 

I remember my father coming to "visit" after we moved there. I was so fucking happy to see him. I can't describe how much I had missed him. I had a great plan to make everything okay.....like it used to be. I thought I could convince him to stay...I honest to god thought he wouldn't leave me again. No matter what I said....no matter how I begged.....he left. I remember him dropping my brother and I off down at a little store before he left and walking home with the most fucked up, indescribable feeling I had ever felt in my young life span. That's what he had done in my mind....dropped me off....and left. No real explanation....just the stauch, cold reality of realism hitting me like bricks. 
Something had happened to me then.....it put something in me. Not sure what....a realism? a sense of emptiness? a sense of abandonment? a fear....?

My parents were never the most consoling, tender people you could meet......just wish they had a clue that you might want to TELL your children before you make radical life changes.....

All I can say is that it's not the only moment in my life that defined it but I think it was one of the biggest......_


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## Fat.n.sassy (Sep 18, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I understand that feeling....like someone yanked the rug out from under you and cared nothing about how much it hurt you.
> 
> When I was four, my parents took me with them on a drive in the car one evening. They were looking at an apartment. I asked if we were moving there. They said no, only Daddy was. That confused and upset me.
> 
> ...





I so understand! (((Hugs)))


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## Tania (Sep 18, 2009)

I probably don't have any business posting here because I have an extremely "together" family (to the point of stifling overprotectiveness, yo), but holy dang, those abandonment "symptoms" describe me to a "T" in friendships and romantic relationships.

Sometimes I think that by the mere fact that I love someone, I am irrevocably destined to lose them.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 18, 2009)

I decided to do more reading on the subject and found a wonderful site that lays it all out very clearly- moreso than the other sites I have read so far.


> Internalizers & Externalizers
> 
> There are two possible choices - The energy can be directed inward in the form of self-contempt... or outward as contempt for people, society, authority figures, the opposite sex, God or whoever is available - the man on the street.
> 
> ...



http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/abandonment.html


I'm thinking I'm an internalizer.......


> The term "False-Self" is used because it is just that  false... as in NOT true... a counterfeit self rooted in the abandonment... It only feels like who we are.
> 
> It feels that way because the wound is emotional in nature. It's not until significant healing of the abandonment, shame and contempt that we are able to feel differently about ourselves.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 18, 2009)

> Conflict Resolution Tip #2 - Take Off the Mask
> 
> The following is a list of the Survival Roles or "Masks" that children learn as a way to survive not getting their needs met:
> 
> ...





> Conflict Resolution Tip #4 - Understand The Drama Triangle
> 
> The Drama Triangle requires two to three players - a victim... a persecutor... and a rescuer. As we explore this dynamic of the dysfunctional family... it's important to keep in mind that there are such things as genuine victims, genuine persecutors, and genuine rescuers.
> 
> ...



http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/conflict_resolution_tips.html


> Conflict Resolution Tip #6 - Break Out of the Drama Triangle
> 
> The object of this game is to maintain the status quo or familiar balance in the family system. This is accomplished because none of the players ever have to "go inside" to address their own issues &#8211; this is also how they maintain their external focus.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that part was right up my alley.....:blink:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 19, 2009)

If anyone reads them, please share your opinions of them? 



> This is the part of us that Bradshaw and Whitfield speak of that has "gone into hiding" deep inside. In other words, it has been repressed or "disowned" by the subconscious mind in order to protect us from the pain and fear of abandonment it carries.
> 
> *The main problem with repressed and disowned parts of self is that they don't stay repressed...they get triggered just like any other part of self. When they do is when we have "reactions" that are grounded in fear of abandonment.*



http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/fear_of_abandonment.html


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## Fluffy51888 (Sep 19, 2009)

My father almost left my family my senior year in high school. He told me the main reason he stayed is because he thought of what I would do or be like without him. So, naturally, I am walking on eggshells because I feel like the second I screw up, he's gone because I was the reason he was staying in the first place. Things like this do transfer over to relationships, as much as I hate it. I feel like it's my responsibility to make sure people stick around, and I usually do whatever it takes to make sure they do. 

I know that many of you have stories that are far more serious than mine, but I wanted to let y'all know that I do slightly understand some of your pain.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 19, 2009)

Everyone and all opinions are welcome in this thread. It's not meant as a pity party or "who has suffered more" but is meant to try and gain better insight/understanding to the things from our past that drive us today.

Thank you to everyone that has participated


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## tattooU (Sep 19, 2009)

i wish i had more time to read this tonight, it seems i have worse abandonment issues than i thought. Not really surprising though, my family history includes a lot of addiction and death at a young age.

Detachment and appeasement behaviors are how i express my fucked up childhood. Go me!

Great reading material GEF, thanks so much for sharing! i'll try to add when i can...


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## ssflbelle (Sep 19, 2009)

Since 2005 my abandonment issues as a child have surfaced. You see my Father divorced my Mother before I was 2 years old. My Brother has told me before the divorce took place there were many times he came home from school at lunch time and I was all alone in the crib with a wet diaper, screaming probably from hunger. Mom was not home and no one was taking care of me. He said many times there was no food in the house and he would feed me flour and water and called it oatmeal. After he feed me he would go and find her at a bar and bring her back home before he went back to school. Once Dad divorced her she never kept in touch with us. 

My Father did remarry but I was so young I had no idea until I was 10 years old that the woman I thought was my Mom was my Step Mom. I than began to doubt if my Father was really my Father and asked to see my Birth Certificate. I had only the name of my Birth Mom. When I was 36 years old my God Mother who never kept in touch with me either, found my address through my Father's Brother and sent me a few pictures of my Birth Mother.

My Dad worked fro Kresge and we had to move every 3 - 4 years which was extremely difficult for me because as soon as I felt comfortable with making some friend we had to move again. 

In 2005 I divorced in Feb, my Step Brother died Sept 2005 and 29 days later my Step Mom passed away. MY Father was admitted into a Nursing Home for Alzheimer's Disease and in Dec 2005 I lost my job of 18 years. 
I lost my identity as a wife, daughter and teacher. That is when these horrible feeling of abandonment set in and they are still with me today. I have no idea how to deal with them and move on. I know they are affecting me in my relationships with the few friends I do have and also in trying to start new relationships. 

This has been a difficult month for me and I thank you for letting me vent it here. But if you came across any solutions in your readings I would love to know where to find them.


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## littlefairywren (Sep 19, 2009)

Maybe this will be one of those cathartic threads, a place to shed crap we carry with us.

It has brought up a truly significant memory of my father. After he left our family he came to visit to get the last of his stuff. I was only 7 and he was the centre of my universe. I was a real daddy's girl I am afraid.

When I asked him why he was leaving my sister and I, he said that he had a new family now with new children that came first. He left without looking back. I am 41 now and that still has the ability to make me cry buckets if I let myself feel it.

Thank you GEF


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## katherine22 (Sep 19, 2009)

ssflbelle said:


> Since 2005 my abandonment issues as a child have surfaced. You see my Father divorced my Mother before I was 2 years old. My Brother has told me before the divorce took place there were many times he came home from school at lunch time and I was all alone in the crib with a wet diaper, screaming probably from hunger. Mom was not home and no one was taking care of me. He said many times there was no food in the house and he would feed me flour and water and called it oatmeal. After he feed me he would go and find her at a bar and bring her back home before he went back to school. Once Dad divorced her she never kept in touch with us.
> 
> My Father did remarry but I was so young I had no idea until I was 10 years old that the woman I thought was my Mom was my Step Mom. I than began to doubt if my Father was really my Father and asked to see my Birth Certificate. I had only the name of my Birth Mom. When I was 36 years old my God Mother who never kept in touch with me either, found my address through my Father's Brother and sent me a few pictures of my Birth Mother.
> 
> ...



You are incredibly strong to have survived such neglect. One way to consider this childhood is to praise yourself for having survived it and consider yourself deserving of the best from life. Being a fat woman is a cultural abandonment as we are estranged from the mores of the culture.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 19, 2009)

steely said:


> That's very interesting, GEF. I have extreme abandonment issues, alcoholic father, co-depedent mother, 5 siblings. No time for any attention, nurturing, love, nothing. I was abandoned at birth, even though my parents didn't divorce until I was 13.
> 
> I went the the opposite direction. I rarely trust anyone, never got involved with many men, just kept everyone out. The man I married, when he tries to care for me I feel smothered. I can't handle that kind of attachment. It's too close. Damaged in so many ways, I don't exactly know how to love. My sister told me the other night for the first time in 48 years that she loved me.
> 
> At 41, I'm not sure if I can change or even want to change. I don't think I would know how. That's my experience and I don't know that it helps but there it is.



Steely, this sounds so much like me. Same early history (though 4 siblings, 5 step-siblings), same trust issues. I thank Dog that my husband understands me, and accepts me just as I am. I know that I can be extremely difficult to live with. Although I do love him very much, the only person in this world that I've ever been able to love unreservedly, with my whole heart (and with all of the accompanying vulnerabilities) is my son. 

I'm also 41, and like you, I doubt that I can change but the truth is, I don't want to, either. I know that there is a balance there ... one between dependency and complete autonomy, and that it's healthier to live somewhere in the middle. But I've spent my life on the autonomous side, and at this stage of my life, I'm very comfortable there.


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## steely (Sep 19, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Steely, this sounds so much like me. Same early history (though 4 siblings, 5 step-siblings), same trust issues. I thank Dog that my husband understands me, and accepts me just as I am. I know that I can be extremely difficult to live with. Although I do love him very much, the only person in this world that I've ever been able to love unreservedly, with my whole heart (and with all of the accompanying vulnerabilities) is my son.
> 
> I'm also 41, and like you, I doubt that I can change but the truth is, I don't want to, either. I know that there is a balance there ... one between dependency and complete autonomy, and that it's healthier to live somewhere in the middle. But I've spent my life on the autonomous side, and at this stage of my life, I'm very comfortable there.



I understand and you put it much better than I did. I've never found that person I can be totally open and love completely. That is no one's fault but my own, I'm afraid. I am comfortable not delving too deeply. Let it be...


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 19, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> My father "left me" when I was very young....my older sister (my counselor later explained to me that she was my second mother or my "idea of a normal woman" since she was ten years older) left me a year and a half later.
> The Person Who Raised Me aka my older brother left five years after her. All that was left was my Mom...then she left, too. However, my mother had "abandoned" me in many ways long before that...
> 
> I think all that has stayed with me....and has affected every relationship with a man I have ever had. I don't "cling" but more like....I have to feel firmly ensconced....or cocooned with a relationship that is too smothering. I keep ending up with "jealous men".....relationships with them are abusive....and the jealousy isn't even about me....it's more about their insecurities.
> ...




Oh boy....you opened up a can of worms for me with this topic . I could write a novel on being abandoned.... My mom and dad divorced when I was about 2-1/2 years old. So, off went my father (many, many issues with him. Abuse and kidnapping.). At the same time, my mom went off to a psych. hospital. I've been told that at that age, the brain connections for relationships and trust are formed. My mom was in and out of psych hospitals until I was about 14. I was dumped person to person, often left to fend for myself when people got sick of watching me. Just and fyi, I was a good kid. Didn't skip school, got excellent grades, no drugs or alcohol, didn't sneak out in the middle of the night, so it wasn't like I was a PITA to take watch. I'd often clean their houses, babysit, help their kids with their homework, etc. So you can imagine my shock each time they wanted me out because they were sick of watching me. When my mom was around......well, that was difficult too. "Lack of nurturing" according to the psychiatrists, and I agree. It was like I was the parent when she was around, and it still is that way. Soooooooo.......you can imagine how I am. And that's not even the tip of the iceberg of my life story. 

I pretty much always hold back in any relationship and have a mega fear of being abandoned. The couple people I've completely trusted and let in ended up using that trust against me and leaving. They knew I completely trusted them, knew that is a very big "gift" to them, but actually used that against me........boggles my mind. At this point, I don't even know if I really want to be in a relationship....I do, but I don't. I don't know if I could trust completely again, and that's not fair to the other person. I really don't know if I could take being abandoned and hurt again... I rather be alone knowing that it's just me taking care of me.

I've had so much counseling....none of it has helped with this issue.

I'm so wary of people. Guess that's why I have an innate connection with animals. You always know where you stand with them.

GEF, I don't have an answer for you.......seems like the experts really don't either. If you find out the answer, let me know; I'd like to move on too.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 19, 2009)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Oh boy....you opened up a can of worms for me with this topic . I could write a novel on being abandoned.... My mom and dad divorced when I was about 2-1/2 years old. So, off went my father (many, many issues with him. Abuse and kidnapping.). At the same time, my mom went off to a psych. hospital. I've been told that at that age, the brain connections for relationships and trust are formed. My mom was in and out of psych hospitals until I was about 14. I was dumped person to person, often left to fend for myself when people got sick of watching me. Just and fyi, I was a good kid. Didn't skip school, got excellent grades, no drugs or alcohol, didn't sneak out in the middle of the night, so it wasn't like I was a PITA to take watch. I'd often clean their houses, babysit, help their kids with their homework, etc. So you can imagine my shock each time they wanted me out because they were sick of watching me. When my mom was around......well, that was difficult too. "Lack of nurturing" according to the psychiatrists, and I agree. It was like I was the parent when she was around, and it still is that way. Soooooooo.......you can imagine how I am. And that's not even the tip of the iceberg of my life story.
> 
> I pretty much always hold back in any relationship and have a mega fear of being abandoned. The couple people I've completely trusted and let in ended up using that trust against me and leaving. They knew I completely trusted them, knew that is a very big "gift" to them, but actually used that against me........boggles my mind. At this point, I don't even know if I really want to be in a relationship....I do, but I don't. I don't know if I could trust completely again, and that's not fair to the other person. I really don't know if I could take being abandoned and hurt again... I rather be alone knowing that it's just me taking care of me.
> 
> ...



I know how you feel with the "boggles the mind" part. I have felt that way in many friendships/relationships...I couldn't have treated those people any better yet they choose to do something stupid (sometimes repeatedly) that ends the friendship. What boggles my mind is the part where they seem shocked and haven't seen it coming :blink:
Sometimes....it's not always what YOU do wrong. Some people really are effed up and have no clue how to exist among other people. That's not your fault- it's their own shortcoming.

That's a new attitude I have taken up lately- I like it because it seems like I am seeing truth.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Sep 20, 2009)

I think those are the takers in a relationship GEF and they are shocked when the person that is doing all the giving gets sick of it...For some reason their brain wont let them understand any relationship is give and take and not just take all the time..I know I have cut a few friends loose when I got to the point they had drained me and was not giving back..


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 20, 2009)

BubbleButtBabe said:


> I think those are the takers in a relationship GEF and they are shocked when the person that is doing all the giving gets sick of it...For some reason their brain wont let them understand any relationship is give and take and not just take all the time..I know I have cut a few friends loose when I got to the point they had drained me and was not giving back..



That is how I felt when I ended my marriage.....greatly relieved. I had nothing else to give and felt like I was drowning. He liked to make conversations about me....as in *I* had to do more. The relationship started turning when I asked him one day what exactly his responsibilities to me were....and he couldn't answer. He told me I was acting crazy......wow. I knew then that "forever" was too long.....


They are more than takers.....they are vampires.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 20, 2009)

GEF, thank you for posting this. I've been at work and in a class all week/weekend but I've been mulling over the articles and checking in with this thread. My own issues with abandonment are enormous, and have hugely influenced the decisions I've made.

When I was 12, my parents died, two months apart. My mom had been sick with cancer for over a year and so her death came as a bit of a relief for all of us. It was still painful but I could cope. I had my dad, after all, and my relationship with my mom was contentious, so while it hurt, it didn't devastate me. However, while I was away at camp, two months later, my father died unexpectedly of a massive heart attack. He was alive for two days before he died, but no one came to get me at camp so I could say goodbye. He died before I came back, while I was watching a meteor shower a hundred miles away, and felt a huge, ripping pain that at the time I had no idea what it was about. It was only later that I was able to make the connection.

That single act caused such pain, and continues to reverberate to this day. Since my father died, I think I have not once felt totally secure in anything, except perhaps in my kids' love for me. I had the emotional rug pulled out from under me, and the loss of security and trust, warmth and unconditional love, makes me still feel never good enough... never smart enough... never loved enough. After years and years of therapy I'm able to cope, obviously, but that fear that no one will love me unfortunately has put me in positions where I put up with things no one should, only because I fear being alone.

Over time, this fear has become a smaller part of my life. I'm more confident, stronger, and believe more in myself and my capacity to be alone. However it still comes up at odd times, like a punch in the gut, and there I am... that 12 year old child... afraid and alone. 

Thank you for starting this thread. It has comforted me to read about everyone else's struggles. I'm amazed at the strength and insight shared here.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Sep 20, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> That is how I felt when I ended my marriage.....greatly relieved. I had nothing else to give and felt like I was drowning. He liked to make conversations about me....as in *I* had to do more. The relationship started turning when I asked him one day what exactly his responsibilities to me were....and he couldn't answer. He told me I was acting crazy......wow. I knew then that "forever" was too long.....
> 
> 
> They are more than takers.....they are vampires.



I do not understand how they can not see they are not doing enough..It's a shame too..He was so wrapped up in himself and didn't look beyond his nose to see you needed more...I am surprised he didn't ask you if "it was that time of the month"....

Emotional vampires!


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## BubbleButtBabe (Sep 20, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> GEF, thank you for posting this. I've been at work and in a class all week/weekend but I've been mulling over the articles and checking in with this thread. My own issues with abandonment are enormous, and have hugely influenced the decisions I've made.
> 
> When I was 12, my parents died, two months apart. My mom had been sick with cancer for over a year and so her death came as a bit of a relief for all of us. It was still painful but I could cope. I had my dad, after all, and my relationship with my mom was contentious, so while it hurt, it didn't devastate me. However, while I was away at camp, two months later, my father died unexpectedly of a massive heart attack. He was alive for two days before he died, but no one came to get me at camp so I could say goodbye. He died before I came back, while I was watching a meteor shower a hundred miles away, and felt a huge, ripping pain that at the time I had no idea what it was about. It was only later that I was able to make the connection.
> 
> ...



I am so sorry Miss Vickie..To lose both parents so close,when you are that young has to be so hard..I understand having issues when you do not have someone to guide you during your teenage social years...


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## katherine22 (Sep 20, 2009)

I feel the need to preface what I am going to say since my writing style can seem blunt and insensitive and that is not my intention particularly in this thread.

Without going into details, I was abandoned by my family. Anger was at the core of my personality. Sometimes that anger was very motivating, as one of the ways I filled the emptiness was to read constantly and later to do art. Coping with abandonment was a process of many years of anger and finally to a place of acceptance, acceptance that it happened not that I liked it. I am at the place where I can take a risk, as it is more important to take a risk with another person than to live by the old script of the abandoned person. At peril of over simplification, I refuse to allow the fact that I was abandoned to interfere with connection and joy with other people. I had to get to the place that I knew that I was strong enough to handle other people's reactions and not internalize those reactions as proof of my defectiveness. We are always figuring out that just because a person asserts something, we do not have to own it. I learned through reading and therapy that life is a risk, and I can handle the consequences. I am grateful for this forum. The BBW forum has made Dimensions a better place.


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## Teleute (Sep 20, 2009)

Wow, I should so not have read this thread at work... I'm almost crying just skimming it, because so much is painfully familiar. You ladies are amazing, and I'm going to read through the articles and stories more in-depth at a time when I don't need to be doing things. *so many hugs*


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 20, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Without going into details, I was abandoned by my family. Anger was at the core of my personality. Sometimes that anger was very motivating, as one of the ways I filled the emptiness was to read constantly and later to do art. Coping with abandonment was a process of many years of anger and finally to a place of acceptance, acceptance that it happened not that I liked it.
> 
> I am at the place where I can take a risk, *as it is more important to take a risk with another person than to live by the old script of the abandoned person. *At peril of over simplification, I refuse to allow the fact that I was abandoned to interfere with connection and joy with other people.



I totally agree. Someone hurt you....don't let them continue to hurt you. That's where the forgiveness and moving on parts come from....it means letting go and stepping forward. Every ending is a new beginning.

Sometimes....it's hard to see a future though. Hence, why I'm so guilty of letting myself be drawn back into things of my past. I know that tomorrow will be better....and that's where I need to keep walking to....






katherine22 said:


> *I had to get to the place that I knew that I was strong enough to handle other people's reactions and not internalize those reactions as proof of my defectiveness. *We are always figuring out that just because a person asserts something, we do not have to own it. I learned through reading and therapy that life is a risk, and I can handle the consequences.



Yes....that's something I do a lot.....and it's wrong. I shouldn't take things that happen into myself. I spent a good part of my life feeling like I had a mark on my forehead or something....like the scarlet letter?...that certain people could see and knew immediately that they could hurt and use me.
I know better now....there is no mark. The problem was the dance I knew and always want to do. 
Dysfunction is a dance....and as one of those articles I linked to stated, you need to find a dance partner that knows the steps.
*I* wasn't marked.....I was searching for the things I have always known and have done. 
It's hard to break those old habits.....but you have no hope of doing it until you realize what it is you're even doing to yourself. Glad to have reached such a spot now....




katherine22 said:


> I am grateful for this forum. The BBW forum has made Dimensions a better place.



I wholeheartedly agree. I like this board with the other ladies :happy:


P.S. I really love your new avatar Katherine- what a terrific smile you have


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## katherine22 (Sep 21, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I totally agree. Someone hurt you....don't let them continue to hurt you. That's where the forgiveness and moving on parts come from....it means letting go and stepping forward. Every ending is a new beginning.
> 
> Sometimes....it's hard to see a future though. Hence, why I'm so guilty of letting myself be drawn back into things of my past. I know that tomorrow will be better....and that's where I need to keep walking to....
> 
> ...




Thanks for the compliment and stay well, GEF


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## archivaltype (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm super glad I went through this thread; I'm terrible about actually looking at myself and my own problems. If I can hold the mirror for someone else, I'm pleased as a peach. Now, if I have to look in it myself...it's not good. 

My dad was a drug addict for a long time. He'd been drinking for a long time before that, but after his back surgery the pain pills became the addiction of choice. I believe I was around 10 when things were their worst. I remember quite clearly sitting at the top of the stairs listening to the threats of divorce and so on. My mom and I would leave for a few days, and when we came back, things would be right as rain. Everyone was walking on eggshells to make it like that, of course, but it still was. I was terrified that my dad would leave. Or that we would leave him. 
My little brother and sister, who are seven years younger than me (twins, yay!), were born towards the tail end of things, so they don't remember much. I was the oldest: the responsible smart one who did it all. I, of course, thought that I pretty much sucked, but that's besides the point, I guess. I lived in constant fear of losing everyone. 
So...now I realize that I take a bajilliondy and a half years to trust someone, I get attached to fast to people/things I can't have or that will hurt me, and, even though I want to find that special someone, I'm terrified because part of me is sure that they'll wake up one morning and say: "You suck and you don't deserve me" and leave. Part of me is also convinced that it might be easier to be an old cat lady. 
At least we can work on it together, ladies. 

Also: Thanks to GEF for starting this thread. :bow: Good lady.


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## butch (Sep 21, 2009)

This is an intense, but illuminating, thread-thanks for starting it, GEF.

There was one line that resonated with me at this point in my life, it was the one about equating insecurity and love. That was a light bulb moment for me, and speaks to something I've been struggling with lately.

I'm starting a new relationship, and I'm wondering why I fell so different this time, as compared to other times when I've been involved with someone I really like. This different feeling has really messed with my head, and made me feel guilty and unsure and anxious in dealing with my partner.

I realised that it was related to the fact that this relationship is so different from my other relationships that it might as well be night and day. I was able to recognize the patterns from my past that I had sought out, to my detriment, because I was playing out old childhood dynamics that can never ever be resolved. I guess they're my own version of abandonment issues from my parents.

However, I never could see why there was a certain feeling missing, an indescribable feeling, that I always thought meant I was 'in love.' Now I know what that feeling was-it was insecurity, because I was wrapped up in the 'they don't like me enough, and I need to do everything I can to get them to love me.' To me, this pattern WAS love, not a desperate action to attain love. I see now that it was just insecurity, that this feeling is the only one I knew of that seemed to be the feeling of love, and I am so glad today not to have that feeling.

I'm learning now how to love and be loved without feeling insecure, without constantly doubting that the other person cares about me, and actually knowing for maybe the first time in my life what it is like to be loved and accepted just as I am. It is an amazing feeling, I'm so blessed to get to experience it, but I have to re-learn how to be a loving person in a loving relationship, and I have to be sure that I always reciprocate in kind to my partner that they are loved and accepted and cherished for who they are, with no reservations.

Thanks again, everyone, for your posts and contributions to this thread, it is a help to me and many others.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 22, 2009)

archivaltype said:


> So...now I realize that I take a bajilliondy and a half years to trust someone, I get attached to fast to people/things I can't have or that will hurt me, and, even though I want to find that special someone, I'm terrified because part of me is sure that they'll wake up one morning and say: "You suck and you don't deserve me" and leave. Part of me is also convinced that it might be easier to be an old cat lady. .



archivaltype,
It's pretty much exactly the same way with me.

But for me, I'd be the crazy, old parrot lady


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 22, 2009)

butch said:


> because I was wrapped up in the 'they don't like me enough, and I need to do everything I can to get them to love me.'




I'm trying to break that cycle of "paying" the person to love me. If I say yes to them all the time, give them whatever, etc then they'll love me and stay. It's a hard pattern to break, but I'm catching myself and telling myself "no." And then the terror I feel when I do that , but I know it will get better in time.

I'm so happy for you for finding love and breaking out of all of this crap . Much luck on your new relationship :bow:


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## olwen (Sep 22, 2009)

GEF this is an interesting and informative thread. I think tho there is a parallel for all fat people. I know I've felt abandoned by the world at times, tho I'd say I often feel invisible since the world just isn't made for fat folks and nothing ever fits right. I've never thought of that feeling in terms of abandonment, but I believe it is apt. Much food for thought here.


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## ToniTails (Sep 23, 2009)

Sometimes we try so hard to be strong that we don't want to admit that the things that happened to us, made us feel weak, really hurt--- at least i know thats how i am--- 

i actually made a youtube channel about a year ago so that i could speak out about the sexual abuse i experienced as a child--- its amazing how much voicing these pains and clean ya out


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## ToniTails (Sep 23, 2009)

and you are making the right choice, hun--- because giving in all the time actually drives someone away after a while--- and you deserve to be standing ON the rug not swept under it! good for you!




MizzSnakeBite said:


> I'm trying to break that cycle of "paying" the person to love me. If I say yes to them all the time, give them whatever, etc then they'll love me and stay. It's a hard pattern to break, but I'm catching myself and telling myself "no." And then the terror I feel when I do that , but I know it will get better in time.
> 
> I'm so happy for you for finding love and breaking out of all of this crap . Much luck on your new relationship :bow:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 23, 2009)

00 toni lynn 00 said:


> *Sometimes we try so hard to be strong that we don't want to admit that the things that happened to us, made us feel weak, really hurt---* at least i know thats how i am---
> 
> i actually made a youtube channel about a year ago so that i could speak out about the sexual abuse i experienced as a child--- its amazing how much voicing these pains and clean ya out



I'm that way, too. Spent many years of my life pretending...to myself mostly...that things didn't/can't/won't hurt me. Part of my recovery has been seeing and admitting that....I'm not so tough. That I am no stronger than anyone else.....it's amazing how hard that part was for me.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 24, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I'm that way, too. Spent many years of my life pretending...to myself mostly...that things didn't/can't/won't hurt me. Part of my recovery has been seeing and admitting that....I'm not so tough. That I am no stronger than anyone else.....it's amazing how hard that part was for me.



So true. And I think the strongest people are the ones who admit their vulnerability and yet are able to both be open to people and experiences while setting boundaries (I'm still working on that last part). It's easy to play the tough guy, saying "that won't affect me" or "I've moved on" but I think we still carry that hurt child or adult within us. Know what I mean?


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 24, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> So true. And I think the strongest people are the ones who admit their vulnerability and yet are able to both be open to people and experiences while setting boundaries (I'm still working on that last part). It's easy to play the tough guy, saying "that won't affect me" or "I've moved on" but I think we still carry that hurt child or adult within us. Know what I mean?




Yes I do. Moving on doesn't seem to mean "forgetting" as if things never happened. It seems to be more about finding a place....or a new outlook...in which to view it all, enabling you to free yourself from some of the pain. 
That setting boundaries part.....that's became very important to me lately, as well. Funny how I didn't seem to just know that before.....it is like suddenly "growing up" and wanting the things the other adults want. Or that has been my own experience anyway


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## JoyJoy (Sep 24, 2009)

I've been avoiding this thread with the excuse that I haven't had time to give it the attention it deserves, but mostly it's because it's not an issue I like to face. Abandonment issues have played a *huge* role in my life and I've only come to terms with them over the past year or so. 

Thank you for starting this, GEF. More to come from me.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 24, 2009)

Is it strange that these traits describe absolutely everybody I know, including me? I was nearly smothered to death as a kid though, I couldn't crap without somebody lifting the lid to see what's in there. Most of my stunts were an attempt to break free from the collective pack mentality that was strong in my immediate family. The hunger to be an independent individual who can think and speak for herself was strong, hence I was a bit overachieving and still tend to be. Just adding my 2 cents in favor of the understanding that these traits "can" be signs of other forms of fucked-upedness and not just abandonment.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 24, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Is it strange that these traits describe absolutely everybody I know, including me? I was nearly smothered to death as a kid though, I couldn't crap without somebody lifting the lid to see what's in there. Most of my stunts were an attempt to break free from the collective pack mentality that was strong in my immediate family. The hunger to be an independent individual who can think and speak for herself was strong, hence I was a bit overachieving and still tend to be. Just adding my 2 cents in favor of the understanding that these traits "can" be signs of other forms of fucked-upedness and not just abandonment.



Oh yes, I can agree with that. We all have our "stuff" to contend with...for whatever reasons and no matter how they got started.


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## Saoirse (Sep 24, 2009)

I've been lucky enough to still have an amazing group of friends and family by my side. Some of these stories are so sad, but I hope everyone is pushing forward!

I did have one friend... we were insanely close for all of middle school and most of high school. We were like sisters... only not the kind that argued a lot  We were together most of the time and had a number of great adventures together.

Until one day in high school when she decided she didnt want to be around me anymore. She gave me no reason at all, just started ignoring me. I did feel abandoned for a good year or so and the fact that I had no idea what went wrong only made it worse. Luckily, I had other friends that came to my rescue and helped make the rest of my high school life as fun as possible.

We used to work together, so all of my co-workers now what happened and they are constantly saying how sad it is that we're not close anymore. Sometimes I get the feeling that they know WAY more than I do, but no one will say anything. Its all very shady.

But I do know that she has some issues with drugs, and unfortunately those issues have caught up with her and she's in some serious trouble... like facing jail time. I don't mean to sound cruel, but I hope she gets some jail time, if it means her getting a chance to see what she's doing wrong and getting some help. From what I've been hearing through the grapevine, nothing has sunk in yet, and she's definitely not off the drugs.

It's very sad, and I wish her all the best.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 26, 2009)

It was recommended by an online friend that works for a NPR talk show that centers around holistic type healing. 

Feeding Your Demons


> Demons are ultimately generated by the mind and, as such, have no independent existence. Nonetheless, we engage with them as though they were real, and we believe in their existenceask anyone who has fought an addiction or anxiety attacks. Demons show up in our lives whether we provoke them or not, whether we want them or not. Even common parlance refers to demons, such as a veteran who is home battling his demons of post-traumatic stress from the war in Iraq. I recently heard a woman say she was fighting her jealousy demon. Unfortunately, the habit of fighting our demons only gives them strength. By feeding, not fighting, our demons, we are integrating these energies, rather than rejecting them and attempting to distance ourselves from disowned parts of ourselves, or projecting them onto others.
> http://www.tricycle.com/-practice/feeding-your-demons?page=0,0


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## NemoVolo (Sep 27, 2009)

My birth mother had my two older siblings at 18 and 20, then me when she was 22. She kept them, but gave me up for adoption, and apparently had another son a couple years after me that she kept. So of all her kids, I was the one she gave up. And none of us have the same dad, and even though I have hand-made gifts from my paternal grandmother, I've never met anyone. And I know I'm better off, but I can't help wondering why I wasn't good enough.

A couple of times my adopted dad has gotten angry and said things he now denies saying. I'll never forget the time he said "I wish you weren't my daughter" when I was in 5th grade. He did give me a card and rose as an apology, but...I keep thinking about it. Everytime I screw up, I wonder if he still wants me. 

I've never been the friend people turn to, either. Chances are, the only reason someone will contact me, is if they're bored out of their mind, and/or have tried all their other options. My group of friends in high school would plan movie nights and sleepovers together _right in front of me_ and even when I asked what they were talking about, they wouldn't include me. When I went home for the summer this year after going across the country for college, I didn't see a single one of them until I was the one who called and made plans. I never understood my mom saying "Well, why don't you call ----?" If we were friends, shouldn't that person have to make a little bit of an effort?

I've never had a boyfriend, either, or been asked out on a date. I've gotten close a couple of times, but both said "I don't want a girlfriend right now, I'm too busy/happy being single" and within 3 weeks...they had long-term girlfriends. And I still talk to them, which some people say is weird, but if I didn't talk to every guy I liked who only saw me as a friend, I'd have no guy friends.

I want people to be close to me, but at the same time I push people away as hard as possible so they can't hurt me. I tell all the negative things about me, because if they can't accept those off the bat, I know they'll leave me eventually. 

I don't think I've ever had a positive, major impact on someone, so no one will be majorly affected if I wasn't born. I don't feel wanted, attractive. I'm the Lost Child, reading and making up stories in which a character always finds love despite her flaws. I had imaginary boyfriends in middle school. My greatest fear is that I'll die alone in a house full of cats/dogs (either/or) and no one will notice or miss me until the smell bothers the neighbours.

I don't want to be alone forever, but I don't think anyone deserves to settle for me, either. And the chronic depression sucks, too.

Sorry for the tl;dr, I didn't mean to rant.


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## katherine22 (Sep 27, 2009)

NemoVolo said:


> I want people to be close to me, but at the same time I push people away as hard as possible so they can't hurt me. I tell all the negative things about me, because if they can't accept those off the bat, I know they'll leave me eventually.
> 
> I don't think I've ever had a positive, major impact on someone, so no one will be majorly affected if I wasn't born. I don't feel wanted, attractive. I'm the Lost Child, reading and making up stories in which a character always finds love despite her flaws. I had imaginary boyfriends in middle school. My greatest fear is that I'll die alone in a house full of cats/dogs (either/or) and no one will notice or miss me until the smell bothers the neighbours.
> 
> ...







Depression is a double edged sword in that it is intertwined with feeling and behavior. According to the psychologist, Stephen Hayes, one can spend all day managing one's emotions or living one's values. Depression is a messenger revealing the idea that something in one's life requires attention. There are many opportunities to have contact with others as posting in this forum is one example.


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## NemoVolo (Sep 27, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Depression is a double edged sword in that it is intertwined with feeling and behavior. According to the psychologist, Stephen Hayes, one can spend all day managing one's emotions or living one's values. Depression is a messenger revealing the idea that something in one's life requires attention. There are many opportunities to have contact with others as posting in this forum is one example.



I'm pretty sure mine's a chemical imbalance. Nothing traumatic happened to me in 7th grade to cause it (which is when it started) and I've gone through ever-increasing dosages of anti-depressants.


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## butch (Sep 27, 2009)

NemoVolo said:


> My birth mother had my two older siblings at 18 and 20, then me when she was 22. She kept them, but gave me up for adoption, and apparently had another son a couple years after me that she kept. So of all her kids, I was the one she gave up. And none of us have the same dad, and even though I have hand-made gifts from my paternal grandmother, I've never met anyone. And I know I'm better off, but I can't help wondering why I wasn't good enough.
> 
> A couple of times my adopted dad has gotten angry and said things he now denies saying. I'll never forget the time he said "I wish you weren't my daughter" when I was in 5th grade. He did give me a card and rose as an apology, but...I keep thinking about it. Everytime I screw up, I wonder if he still wants me.
> 
> ...



Please share, and don't worry about length, tone, and so on. What you siad needed to be said, and needed to be heard by those of us who understand, and want to offer support and care. I don't know if I have anything to say that won't sound like a platitude, but I heard so much of myself in what you wrote, and know that things can improve. If I'm reading you correctly, you're in your early 20's? It took me until my late 30's (which is like, yesterday ) to get to a place where I no longer feel the tentacles of depression and all that goes with that deep inside my skin. I don't know how I got here, exactly, except for hope and work and learning to pay attention and to find the lesson in every damn thing that happens to me. 

I also learned to open up, to get hurt, and to lean on people, and to admit I don't know it all. I'm sure there are other things that happened, including the kindness and generosity of too too many people, that I can't even recognize. I also live with the awareness that this state isn't permanent, either, so I hope I will pick up the tools to sustain it to the best of my ability, and that even in the low points (and there will always be low points), they eventually aren't so low anymore. 

I don't know if I sound like a helpful person, or a self-centered one here, and if anything I said doesn't offer you anything of use as you deal with your feelings, please excuse me. I'd like for all of us to feel better about ourselves, and our value in the world. Hugs to you, and please feel free to share here whenever you want.


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## AuntHen (Oct 7, 2009)

My mother left my Dad & me and my sisters when I was about 14. I totally have these issues (I call them rejection issues as well). I feel that even now at 33, I have the emotional state of a 15 year old sometimes. I am independant and live on my own, but feel very needy and helpless at times. When stupid things happen, say like my car breaking down, I stress and freak out! Although my Dad was there physically and financially etc, he was not a mother and he was healing his own heart. I feel I basically raised myself the rest of the way. So a 15 year old raising a 15-18 year old... not good


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 8, 2009)

fat9276 said:


> My mother left my Dad & me and my sisters when I was about 14. I totally have these issues (I call them rejection issues as well). *I feel that even now at 33, I have the emotional state of a 15 year old sometimes. I am independant and live on my own, but feel very needy and helpless at times. *When stupid things happen, say like my car breaking down, I stress and freak out! Although my Dad was there physically and financially etc, he was not a mother and he was healing his own heart. I feel I basically raised myself the rest of the way. So a 15 year old raising a 15-18 year old... not good



I have noticed that "split" in my own life often times. I carry a lot of responsibility...and always have in one form or another, but wind up feeling/acting like an overgrown child, at times. It seems like an overcompensation for too much too soon.....and then I notice people around me that go out of their way to shirk responsibilities at every opportunity and call themselves adults.
What defines an adult? Sometimes, it's okay to be a "kid at heart" and have fun, joke around.....but things along the lines of temper tantrums, whining or self-pity are not acceptable to myself.

Setting boundaries....and being willing to do whatever it takes to hold them in place, is something new for me lately. It feels like I have "grown up" in that aspect....as in I can better take care of myself and my emotional needs....going beyond paying the bills and taking care of everyone else around me.


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## BBW4Chattery (Oct 10, 2009)

I have volumes of issues. 

I never imagined anyone could possibly understand what I went through as a child (and adult). Not because of my arrogance about myself or lack of understanding about the situations of others... because the hell I went/go through is just something that isn't in the popular culture. No book, tv, or movie comes close to what I lived. 

Then, I found a messageboard with a section for children of parents who suffered from borderline personality disorder. It was like I was looking into a mirror. I've never felt like anyone else really got it before then... and even now, I'm not active, but I know if I go back to that board, I can vent and people will REALLY understand what I mean because it's their life too.

Seeing others has opened my eyes so much since I found that board in 2004... and I'm not all-better yet, but I'm MUCH more realistic about my family and their limitations. I'm also much less punishing toward myself about all of it. I think that the power of connecting with a group of people who live the same experience is probably one of the turning points of my life.

So, I'm with you guys even though the situations vary... I've felt a lot of the same things and just wanted to reach out and offer hugs. Not having a family to support you is the worst feeling I've ever felt and even after 30 years of successful endeavors, I still feel like a complete and total failure because I haven't managed to secure the one thing that most people have without any effort at all... a family's love and kindness.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 10, 2009)

Interesting post about BPD....I have heard of it before but wasn't entirely sure what it is. I googled up some information about it. 

Chattery, I grew up with a mentally ill mother so even thought it's different on some levels that when you had, I still understand the neglect, confusion, shock and frustration you may have known as a child....that you carried into adulthood. 

My mom can be the coldest, meanest, cruelest people to me that I have ever known because anything she does is made worse by the fact that she is my mother. Then she can "flip" and sometimes surprise me with concern and understanding.....it can confuse me and I feel a guard go up whenever this occurs....because I know it won't last. 

I have learned to take the good with the bad.....it's definitely made me stronger in many ways as I make my way in the world as an adult. 




> Borderline personality disorder
> 
> Overview
> 
> ...




The description about it reminds me of my ex-boyfriend. Glad to be done with him.


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## BBW4Chattery (Oct 12, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Interesting post about BPD....I have heard of it before but wasn't entirely sure what it is. I googled up some information about it.
> 
> Chattery, I grew up with a mentally ill mother so even thought it's different on some levels that when you had, I still understand the neglect, confusion, shock and frustration you may have known as a child....that you carried into adulthood.
> 
> ...



I'm glad to hear you are out of that relationship too. I'm hypersensitive to that sort of thing now to a point where it keeps me out of most relationships; especially ones with guys who exhibit any inkling of pathology. I've learned to totally trust my instincts. Who is that says "believe someone when they show you who they are"... Maya Angelou? It's been hard not to feel like I was being overly cautious but, now, I think it's one of the healthiest skills I have in my little toolbox!

Each of my parents had diagnosed personality disorders, psychological disorders, addiction issues, AND physical disabilities. So, you know, I won the freaking genetic jackpot. Ha. I'm sorry you went through it too. That confusion is the worst.

I try to stay away from any self-help stuff or guru lingo... both for professional and personal reasons but the borderline support groups refer to that place you describe as Oz. The place of confusion and guilt that you get stuck in when your relatives can't control their behaviors. It sucks.

Even in this moment, logically, I know my parents are pretty crappy parents and always have been mostly horrible to me. Yet, despite all of the physical and emotional abuse, stealing, lies, abandonment, serious breeches of trust, total lack of support in every area of my life, if they do one little thing like bring me a snack from a convenience store, I allow myself to love them all over again and actually blame myself for ever feeling like they were crappy parents.

It sucks to be 30 and so dysfunctional with the family stuff. I know, in my heart, the only way I'll be completely "normal" is to just cut them out of my life because they can't (or won't) change who they are and I'm too tender hearted to have them in my life without taking responsibility for their issues and constantly patching up their mistakes.


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## rainyday (Oct 12, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Interesting post about BPD....I have heard of it before but wasn't entirely sure what it is. I googled up some information about it.



Greenie, some of the info in that article you posted is out of date, at least the treatment part. In the last couple decades a new treatment--dialectical behavioral therapy--has improved outcomes for this disorder somewhat.

I don't have any personal experience with DBT, but I have a good friend who was diagnosed a couple years ago and has been undergoing the treatment and my life was also greatly touched by someone suspected of having BPD, so I have read a lot about it.

General info on DBT

Comparison of DBT vs. group therapy

Interesting article on structrual differences in the brains of people with BPD


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## BBW4Chattery (Oct 12, 2009)

rainyday said:


> Greenie, some of the info in that article you posted is out of date, at least the treatment part. In the last couple decades a new treatment--dialectical behavioral therapy--has improved outcomes for this disorder somewhat.
> 
> I don't have any personal experience with DBT, but I have a good friend who was diagnosed a couple years ago and has been undergoing the treatment and my life was also greatly touched by someone suspected of having BPD, so I have read a lot about it.
> 
> ...



That's great information. If anyone has any specific questions about DBT, I'll be glad to take them on and answer. I'm not an expert, by any means, but my most recent research was working with DBT to modify it for a different population. I'm fairly familiar with the validation literature as well as Linehan, herself, and the different anticipated outcomes of the treatment.

I love DBT and (obviously since that was my last research focus), I think it fits very well with multiple populations. If I lived in a metro area with multiple clinicians (instead of everyone knows your business-usa), I'd love to join a DBT treatment group to see what I can get out of it. Sure, all of the principles won't apply to people without severe symptoms, but who can't benefit from structured mindfulness training?

Another great curriculum that might apply to this thread is Seeking Safety. It is validated for individuals who suffer from PTSD and Substance Abuse issues. However, I believe it works equally as well if you just replace the substance abuse with any other addiction (shopping/eating, whatever) or leave out the addiction part altogether and just focus on the PTSD workbook parts.

Seeking Safety's Website



> What is Seeking Safety? Seeking Safety is a present-focused therapy to help people attain safety from trauma/PTSD and substance abuse. The treatment is available as a book, providing both client handouts and guidance for clinicians.
> 
> The treatment was designed for flexible use. It has been conducted in group and individual format; for women, men, and mixed-gender; using all topics or fewer topics; in a variety of settings (outpatient, inpatient, residential); and for both substance abuse and dependence. It has also been used with people who have a trauma history, but do not meet criteria for PTSD.



As I mentioned before, I sort of puke at the idea of recommending self-help guru stuff to people but if anyone wanted to invest in a used version of either Linehan's Dialectical Behavioral Therapy or Najavits' Seeking Safety, I'd say it would be a good investment.

I can't promise to do it this week, but if anyone is interested, please private message me and I'll scan in some of the pages from both of the texts (if I have them here and they aren't still in storage) and you can see for yourself if it would be helpful before you make the plunge to purchase. 

Of course, if self-directed isn't your thing, and you still think these would help, it's likely that a local psychotherapist will be familiar and can guide you through these curriculums with additional supports.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 12, 2009)

BBW4Chattery said:


> I'm glad to hear you are out of that relationship too. I'm hypersensitive to that sort of thing now to a point where it keeps me out of most relationships; especially ones with guys who exhibit any inkling of pathology. *I've learned to totally trust my instincts. Who is that says "believe someone when they show you who they are"... Maya Angelou? It's been hard not to feel like I was being overly cautious but, now, I think it's one of the healthiest skills I have in my little toolbox!
> *
> Each of my parents had diagnosed personality disorders, psychological disorders, addiction issues, AND physical disabilities. So, you know, I won the freaking genetic jackpot. Ha. I'm sorry you went through it too. That confusion is the worst.
> 
> ...



I think it's natural to love our parents......it's just hard to protect yourself from those we love that think nothing of hurting us. That seems like a human condition and not "stupidity". Keep yourself the way you are......loving other people is a good thing. Hurt goes along with all the other things we find in this life.....so it's okay. Just keep getting back up is all......

I second guess myself a lot....and have been learning to heed my first impressions now more often than not. Self confidence....it goes way beyond the physical....it also affects our core beliefs about other people and how we perceive them. 


Funny to see your reference to "Oz". Ironic really, that I never thought to think of it that way because in my counseling, I did some relaxed visualizations and "The Wizard of Oz" theme kept popping up in them. I liked the book and the movie a lot as a child. I saw "a big floating bubble" often times....and other similarities....so much so even my counselor mentioned how it kept coming up. 






rainyday said:


> Greenie, some of the info in that article you posted is out of date, at least the treatment part. In the last couple decades a new treatment--dialectical behavioral therapy--has improved outcomes for this disorder somewhat.
> 
> I don't have any personal experience with DBT, but I have a good friend who was diagnosed a couple years ago and has been undergoing the treatment and my life was also greatly touched by someone suspected of having BPD, so I have read a lot about it.
> 
> ...




Thank you Rainy!!  :bow:


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## mergirl (Oct 13, 2009)

sorry..another time maby. x


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## rollhandler (Oct 19, 2009)

In the realm of abandonment issues I have experienced, over the years, a number of behaviours associated with it from the perspective of observer, participant, and recipient.
Ms GEF saw a post that I made in another thread where I associated one reason a person may cheat on a spouse or S/O with abandonment issues and invited me to share some thoughts on her thread here.

I am male, and I see myself in a number of behavioural traits that were described by GEF in prior posts anylizing the issue of abandonment and more specifically I identify as the internalizer.
_People who are primarily Internalizers have problems with:
* Depression
* Other-Centeredness
* Care-taking and approval-seeking
* Lack of adequate boundaries
* Have difficulty saying "no" for fear of abandonment
* And, lack of a sense of personal power_
I can read this list and tick off every trait. 

I have been in growing up and in every relationship I have entered into:
_Rebel/Scapegoat:
This child learns to get attention through misbehavior. They get time, attention, affection, and direction from teachers, principals, counselors, and juvenile officers who are all trying to manage their behavior. Unconsciously, the rebel understands that negative strokes are better than no strokes at all.

People Pleaser:
This child is prone to approval-seeking behavior. They fear abandonment and rejection if they say no and so developed difficulty setting boundaries.

Placater:
It is the job of this child to help the family avoid conflict by heading off trouble and making sure others dont make waves. This role and the People Pleaser may also be the Lost Child. It is not unusual for middle children to take on several roles or all of the roles at different times in the life of the family.

The Intellectualizer/Rationalizer:

A.K.A., the Computer, This child learns to say out of their emotions by staying in the thinking or left brain to "figure things out."
While this is an attempt to protect themselves from feeling their painful emotions, it usually backfires because they end up attracting, and being attracted to, people who freely express those same painful emotions. These people "trigger" the intellectualizer into reluctantly experiencing their blocked emotions._

I mention my gender because some of what I admit to in my own behaviours are typically seen as very feminine behavioural traits associated with those who were victims of abuse, abandonment, or acceptance seeking. They run very parallel.
My behaviours weren't from being abandoned by those close to me such as family. My fear of abandonment came from being different and the way children treat those who don't act the way they are supposed to (just like them and all their friends.) It was more of a feeling of nonacceptance and being alone that I feared. The abandonment comes from the repetition of failure to achieve lasting relationships of any kind socially. I wonder how many other FAs share some of these experiences regardless of whether or not they display behaviours associated with abandonment?
As far back in my experience that I can remember I was targetted for being/acting different, or thinking differently and therefore the victim of just about everyone in my peer groups growing up. In my earliest experiences I remember what few friendships I could manage were one way, very usery, and disposable as soon as the "friend" was caught spending time with "the wierd kid." 

_Reaction formation is a conscious over-compensation for a subconscious fear of the opposite - For example, their need to always be right may be a defense against deep-seated fears of always being wrong._

I remember going to great lengths to keep people happy and wanting to spend time with me only to be let down again and again having to start over trying to make new friends regularly. Some of this "being weird" I now attribute to being an FA and in some cases the simple fact that I gave girls attention at such an early age was enough to get picked on but the girls I gave my attention to were always the chubby or fat little girls, which only made it worse for myself and the girls I gave attention to. The people I found were the most accepting were the kids much younger than myself, or the very much older than myself. Since I would attach to just about anyone that would give me attention and adults were more accepting of my being different it was easy to find (without realizing it) several pedophiles over the years that were more than happy to give a kid like myself the much sought after acceptance as well as a sexual education at an early age. The first one I found was when I was about 7. I was so afraid of being alone that I found myself in these types of situations several times throughout my growing up, each time fearing rejection if I did not comply, and once involved, afraid to say no. 

_I see the internalizer as being passive aggressive choosing to keep from being openly aggressive in the hopes that by internalizing they wont push anyone away._

Once in a relationship, the behaviours associated with abandonment came out in a couple of ways. The one that seems most important is being a fixer and care taker making sure that the object of my attention was never unhappy and if she was unhappy that I would go to great lengths to get it smoothed over as soon as possible and in some extreme ways. Another way this behaviour manifested was that I always sought out the next person with whom I would be able to jump to on a rebound and in some cases nurtured relationships specifically groomed to be available at the drop of a hat If the existing relationship were to fail as I was sure it inevitably would. When the inevitable happened it only justified the behaviour. I got married twice as a result of my fear of rejection and abandonment. Having 20/20 hindsight obviously hasn't helped keep me from repeating the behaviours.

My second marriage was with a woman having severe abandonment issues of her own that I can only label as being a smotherer. I saw this behaviour at its most extreme.
Her behaviour traits were:
* _The Responsible One:
The 10 or 12 year old who comes home after school...gets the mail...washes the dishes...cleans up the house... and cares for the younger children. This is the "behind-the-scenes-hero.

*People Pleaser:
This child is prone to approval-seeking behavior. They fear abandonment and rejection if they say no and so developed difficulty setting boundaries.

*Placater:
It is the job of this child to help the family avoid conflict by heading off trouble and making sure others dont make waves. 
_
The woman in question was so crippled by her fear that she would be left, that even when getting fuel I was not allowed to go into the station and pay without her accompanying me as she saw any time that I was out of her sight as an opportunity that I might leave her, and would mentally fret coming up with more and more unlikely and bizarre scenarios in her mind that it would surely happen. She refused to go in and pay for the same reason. This was in the early stages of the relationship before deeper trust had been earned by either party involved. Although therapy helped her to realize some of the sources of her fear and give it a name, she came to realize that the behaviour would only have one outcome if it was let to continue. It would become a self fulfilling prophecy which would only deepen and magnify while continuing the cycle. I attribute her early and lengthy behaviours of sexual promiscuity to these issues as well and in her words it seemed a good way to get acceptance. She admitted that it was easier to get attention from men than from her female peers and keep them around using sex. Unfortunately it also became a repetitive self fulfilling prophesy of abandonment when used to gain attention and acceptance that she sought.


Although the smothering behaviour lessened greatly the issues of trust never changed. There was only one type of jealousy displayed and that was toward any circumstance or situation that either threatened to take me away from her or that she could not control access to me by its nature or distance. She had overachiever syndrome and a need to control any and everything to ensure this including whether or not I could attend school based on whether or not she thought I would pass or fail the course. If there wasn't an absolute surety of success, nothing was ventured, including repairs on the house or car by me. Although her personality could change like a chameleon to match that of any person she dealt with on a day to day basis and she was a master manipulator. These manipulations were used sometimes to achieve furthering of her control and success in the overachiever syndrome but most of the time it was used as a way to keep people close to her without actually having to invest of herself beyond the absolute minimum in any relationship (work associate, friend, acquaintance, or lover) especially since in her mind all these relationships were doomed to failure at whatever level given enough time, Looking back I am pretty sure that were it not for our combined abandonment issues we would not have lasted the 12 years that it did.

Another type of behaviour that I have seen exhibited is where the partner with the abandonment issue will latch on to more than one partner being afraid that eventually the one they have already will leave them eventually. (After all It's just a matter of time isn't it?) They are so afraid of being alone that this fear causes them to keep a backup relationship and lie to maintain it for years before they can relax enough to see that the one they had first isn't just another letdown and commit to them. In some cases here I see fear of abandonment and a fear of being alone as one in the same and in some cases the behaviour is exhibited through the revolving door of rebound relationships. There cannot be a lag between relationships in the mind of the one displaying the behaviour. In this case there will always be another partner or potential partner being courted before the ending of the existing relationship. Not only have I seen this enacted by several others over the years I myself am guilty of some of these behaviours as well in past relationships. 

One other aspect of abandonment issues that makes me wonder is whether these issues have much to do with staying with a physically abusive partner, or continuing to return to the abuser fearing that their own rejection of the relationship in spite of the abuse is as bad as the act of rejection by their partner and cannot bring themselves to do it.
Rollhandler


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 21, 2009)

I like that you came and posted here Rollhandler. Thank you much...I think your post/input was quite valuable to this thread.

What you mentioned about peers/friend in childhood abandoning you....it happened to me, as well.

The sexual abuse...it happened to me and it happened to a man I was close with for two years. He grew up, reported the offender (who happened to be a minister...) to the police and his report was "lost". I kid you not.....
It all came up again ten years later when he (my ex-bf) ran into some other people from his childhood who told him the same had happened to them. That time they went with him to make a complaint. The police could not ignore the new onslought of past sexually abused children coming out of the wood work and had to arrest the guy (the minister that worked for Goodwill Industries with mentally handicapped kids, no shit....). All complaints were considered past the statute of limitations except....for the original complaint made ten years earlier. 
A local news crew and a lawyer were able to dig that "lost" report up.....amazing, eh? 

Preacher man is serving at least six years now.....

I'm incredibly proud of my ex for getting that predator off the streets. :bow:

What you said about the smothering ex.....that insecure, insane jealousy echoed my first short marriage. He seemed to always think that I always had some "ulterior motive" for going to work or the grocery store :blink:

Interesting point about "self fulfilling" prophecies. Wonder how many of us with abandonment issues have ran into that?


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## rollhandler (Oct 21, 2009)

Of course I wonder how many others have attributed early sexual abuse and teenage promiscuity (both male and female) with social acceptance and abandonment issues? I am not necessarily speaking about parental or familial sexual abuse since the level of attachment and proximity to ones abuser is part of it. I speak more about casual partners and molesters that one can choose to never be around again but in some cases the used /abused chooses to return because the person seems to accept them and the cost seems to be justified by the acceptance. I wonder if in these cases ones later sexuality isn't bound to their negative self worth and triggered by issues of sexual abandonment and acceptance?

Just for the record the molesters that I found in my journey were all acquantances or friends of friends or total strangers and not the ones typically thought of as having access and close contact with children. The earliest that I related was during an era where the kids in smaller towns were allowed to wander unsupervised about the prescribed areas of containment. ( anywhere on their block or at the park two blocks up or such) I know a lot more males have had these experiences than will admit but it does happen and does affect us deeply as well, and since a lot of times it happens with another male most of the time leads to a myriad of emotional and sexual trauma and in some cases extreme sexual behaviours that go unresolved over the years especially as they question sexuality during puberty. 

It can even be acceptable in ones mind to pay for acceptance with the coin of sexuality and even make it consensual by justifying or misinterpreting predatory behaviour in the molester as acceptance, at extremely early ages with a molester, damaging the emotional psyche much more when the betrayal comes and the abandonment happens yet again.

I believe that sexual acceptance / rejection is a deeper issue with wider reaching deeper affects on ones psyche and emotional states relating to later relationships than most realize. I believe that even though one may be able to accept being abandoned by a person in a non sexual relationship and move on, that it hits harder to be abandoned or rejected once the level of sexual intimacy is achieved (regardless of whether it is a one night stand or a dating partner or even a molester) due to the level of intimacy and vulnerability being betrayed. Not only does the person feel abandoned but betrayed and used and worthless. The deeper the intimacy and more vulnerable one lets themselves get, the deeper the cut when the betrayal comes and the faster the callus grows over the emotional ability / availablility in the future relationships.

Rollhandler


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 21, 2009)

Used and worthless.....quite an ugly feeling. Also....quite a catalyst to doing other stupid things.......


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## rainyday (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks for sharing your story, Roll. I realize this is the BBW forum, but I'm glad Greenie invited you to share. A couple things in particular that you said offered me some insights.


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## saucywench (Oct 22, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> Of course I wonder how many others have attributed early sexual abuse and teenage promiscuity (both male and female) with social acceptance and abandonment issues?


I think the connection is direct and occurs more often than not; whether survivors recognize it and work through it is dependent upon their level of self-awareness. 



rollhandler said:


> The deeper the intimacy and more vulnerable one lets themselves get, the deeper the cut when the betrayal comes and the faster the callus [sic] grows over the emotional ability / availablility in the future relationships.


You've got that quite right. What's especially harmful is when the person you are involved with (on whatever level) has full knowledge of your personal experiences in this area yet subsequently betrays you in a similar manner. It is at this point that you realize your 'partner' has issues that go far beyond that of your own--and that's saying something.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread; your insight is quite similar to mine regarding these issues.


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## Carrie (Oct 26, 2009)

This is a good topic, one I have been thinking about recently. 

I have never been abandoned in a physical sense, but have experienced a fair amount of emotional abandonment. My dad was kind of your classic there-in-body-but-not-in-spirit father, who checked out from my family emotionally when my brother and I were quite little. He was like a ghost in the house. As I grew up and put on weight, he became more involved with me, but only because he absolutely hated my fat and did everything he could to try to force me to lose weight. We reached a kind of uneasy peace (more of a truce, really) later in my life, but he still can't quite get over my size and my efforts to reach out to him are usually subtly rebuffed. So it's like....I have a dad, but I don't have a dad. When I got married I was 26, and it was just a therapist's cliche'd wet dream situation, where I sought out and found a man who was equally emotionally detached as my father had been. That eventually ended in divorce, not surprisingly. There's not much worse than feeling utterly and completely alone, while your partner is with you physically. 

After a few years of post-divorce flailing-around-dating, not knowing what I wanted or needed, I took some time to myself to try to figure some stuff out, and emerged from that with a very clear promise to myself to never again become involved with a man who did not have equal interest in me, and equal emotional stock in the relationship. Sounds good, right? The problem is, I struggle with knowing WHEN is a reasonable time to make that determination. I think maybe my resolve to protect myself is so strong that I've cut things off earlier than I should, not giving enough time for things to potentially develop and for the man's feelings for me to grow. It's kind of the polar opposite of the more typical clinginess/neediness that abandonment issues frequently cause, if that makes any sense. I just can't stand the feeling of possibly being more interested in someone than he is into me; it makes me incredibly uncomfortable, like I just want to jump out of my skin. So I end it, fast. Maybe too fast? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I can't figure out if I'm doing the right thing for me or am missing out on something great because I maybe don't give things enough time. So I don't know. Some days it makes perfect sense to me, and some days I feel like it's essentially preemptive "better him now than me later" rejection and a pretty cowardly way to live. Leaps of faith are so damn scary, which I guess is why they're called that. 

Anyway. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else experiences this, or has any insight.


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## rollhandler (Oct 26, 2009)

Carrie said:


> This is a good topic, one I have been thinking about recently.
> 
> I have never been abandoned in a physical sense, but have experienced a fair amount of emotional abandonment. My dad was kind of your classic there-in-body-but-not-in-spirit father, who checked out from my family emotionally when my brother and I were quite little. He was like a ghost in the house. As I grew up and put on weight, he became more involved with me, but only because he absolutely hated my fat and did everything he could to try to force me to lose weight. We reached a kind of uneasy peace (more of a truce, really) later in my life, but he still can't quite get over my size and my efforts to reach out to him are usually subtly rebuffed. So it's like....I have a dad, but I don't have a dad. When I got married I was 26, and it was just a therapist's cliche'd wet dream situation, where I sought out and found a man who was equally emotionally detached as my father had been. That eventually ended in divorce, not surprisingly. There's not much worse than feeling utterly and completely alone, while your partner is with you physically.
> 
> ...



Self defeating, self deprecating, and pre-emptive rejection behaviours such as what you describe are common amongst people in relationships they feel they are not worthy of having due to being rejected or abandoned emotionally multiple times or deep emotionally traumatic rejections. The need for being closeness is there but since it hurts to be that close we seek the relationship but sabotage it because it hurts to much to allow such vulnerablilty again with the expectation of rejection looming in our psyche. It turns us into that which we fear. This smacks of the abused becoming the abuser becoming part of the cycle to me, but it is common enough to see it in myself and others.

My first ever relationship was with a girl whose issues of worthlessness and abandonment and abuse were deep enough that every time I got uncomfortably close to having her believe the depth of my commitment and feelings for her she would do perform deliberate acts of sabotage to test me. Things that even when I passed the test I would fail. She would get out of the car at lights and start walking just to see if I would follow. She would walk out of the house to see how long it would be before I noticed her absence and talk her out of leaving, she screwed around multiple times or at least told me she had, then couldn't believe that the act was forgivable. She couldn't figure out why I didn't rage or leave her or beat her for her actions. My inability to act the way she thought I should have caused the fail, when I didn't act the way she thought I should have toward her, even though I passed by acting the way she hoped I would. I stayed with her as a partner for 3 years before finally accepting the futility of the situation, but in the end I figured out that no matter how steadfast or how hard I tried or worked or hoped or loved her she would never allow herself to be happy in a relationship.
Rollhandler


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## Carrie (Oct 26, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> Self defeating, self deprecating, and pre-emptive rejection behaviours such as what you describe are common amongst people in relationships they feel they are not worthy of having due to being rejected or abandoned emotionally multiple times or deep emotionally traumatic rejections. The need for being closeness is there but since it hurts to be that close we seek the relationship but sabotage it because it hurts to much to allow such vulnerablilty again with the expectation of rejection looming in our psyche. It turns us into that which we fear. This smacks of the abused becoming the abuser becoming part of the cycle to me, but it is common enough to see it in myself and others.
> 
> My first ever relationship was with a girl whose issues of worthlessness and abandonment and abuse were deep enough that every time I got uncomfortably close to having her believe the depth of my commitment and feelings for her she would do perform deliberate acts of sabotage to test me. Things that even when I passed the test I would fail. She would get out of the car at lights and start walking just to see if I would follow. She would walk out of the house to see how long it would be before I noticed her absence and talk her out of leaving, she screwed around multiple times or at least told me she had, then couldn't believe that the act was forgivable. She couldn't figure out why I didn't rage or leave her or beat her for her actions. My inability to act the way she thought I should have caused the fail, when I didn't act the way she thought I should have toward her, even though I passed by acting the way she hoped I would. I stayed with her as a partner for 3 years before finally accepting the futility of the situation, but in the end I figured out that no matter how steadfast or how hard I tried or worked or hoped or loved her she would never allow herself to be happy in a relationship.
> Rollhandler


Yikes. I hear what you're saying, ahh, Dr. Rollhandler p), but that's not really it, in my case. It's not a matter of feeling like I don't deserve it or being self-deprecating or testing the guy, not at all (and eeek, I have to admit, it kind of bugs me that that's how you read my post; makes me wish I could go back and edit!). Suffice it to say that I think a person can recognize earlier self-destructive patterns (like being attracted to emotionally unavailable men) and eventually take some self-protective steps like I have _without_ feeling worthless or undeserving - in fact, if anything, I do this because I know I deserve better and more than what I've had in the past. I just wonder if my "steps" are honing in too early, that's all. I think you've made some good points here, Roll, but it also shows that armchair psychology can be kind of limited, at the end of the day.


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## rainyday (Oct 26, 2009)

Carrie, as I was reading about your dad I kept thinking what an astoundingly huge mistake he's made by being unwilling to fully have a relationship with you. You are so funny and inventive and humble and smart and fun and so...well, Carrie! He has truly missed out.

Also, I have to agree with Carrie, Roll. Based on the person I've come to know over the years, I don't see that first paragraph you wrote as applicable to her. Not sure if maybe you were speaking more generally and I've misread that, but it seemed as if you were applying it to her.


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## rollhandler (Oct 26, 2009)

Carrie said:


> Yikes. I hear what you're saying, ahh, Dr. Rollhandler p), but that's not really it, in my case. It's not a matter of feeling like I don't deserve it or being self-deprecating or testing the guy, not at all (and eeek, I have to admit, it kind of bugs me that that's how you read my post; makes me wish I could go back and edit!). Suffice it to say that I think a person can recognize earlier self-destructive patterns (like being attracted to emotionally unavailable men) and eventually take some self-protective steps like I have _without_ feeling worthless or undeserving - in fact, if anything, I do this because I know I deserve better and more than what I've had in the past. I just wonder if my "steps" are honing in too early, that's all. I think you've made some good points here, Roll, but it also shows that armchair psychology can be kind of limited, at the end of the day.



Though in rereading your original post I see your point about emotional unavailability although I followed it to the wrong conclusion. Sorry to have posted in error. And, thank you for the correction, and for showing me another angle to view the behaviours that I may have misinterpreted from others as well.
One of my many faults that I've had pointed out to me by others is my ability to overanylize.
Rollhandler


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## AnnMarie (Oct 26, 2009)

Tania said:


> Sometimes I think that by the mere fact that I love someone, I am irrevocably destined to lose them.



Get outta my head, lady.


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## Carrie (Oct 26, 2009)

rainyday said:


> Carrie, as I was reading about your dad I kept thinking what an astoundingly huge mistake he's made by being unwilling to fully have a relationship with you. You are so funny and inventive and humble and smart and fun and so...well, Carrie! He has truly missed out.
> 
> Also, I have to agree with Carrie, Roll. Based on the person I've come to know over the years, I don't see that first paragraph you wrote as applicable to her. Not sure if maybe you were speaking more generally and I've misread that, but it seemed as if you were applying it to her.


Thank you so much, rainy-my-sweet. For both things, especially the first. :wubu:

(I feel like he's missed out, too). 



rollhandler said:


> Though in rereading your original post I see your point about emotional unavailability although I followed it to the wrong conclusion. Sorry to have posted in error. And, thank you for the correction, and for showing me another angle to view the behaviours that I may have misinterpreted from others as well.
> One of my many faults that I've had pointed out to me by others is my ability to overanylize.
> Rollhandler


Thanks, Roll, I appreciate that.


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## mergirl (Oct 27, 2009)

Carrie said:


> I feel like it's essentially preemptive "better him now than me later" rejection ...


I think this is the crux of what you were explaining and i have to say i think thats pretty common. As humans our main objective is basically self preservation and i think that sometimes when we have been hurt in the past like that our brains make wee patterns, like sledge trails in the snow. If you have ever been sledging you will know that if you start off on the track you made before, its pretty much impossible to go in any other direction but the one you dug out for yourself. 
I think the fact you know what is happening is a brilliant start because half the time people do stuff over and over a million times and they still dont have as much self awareness as you have shown. 
The self preservation thing i think is like an evolutionary anoyance, whereby when we were living in caves we might stear clear of a heard of mammoth (I have no idea if mammoth and humans co-exosted btw! lol) just incase at some point they decide to charge and trample us to death... these days the self preservation is kinna saved for not wanting to be hurt emotionally or embarressed (Its funny the lengths we go to to save face!). 
I can't give you advice because only you know you enough to do that, but i can say that i used to do the same; I had to reach a point where i thought "Well if this person wants to be with me they will and if they don't then they wont" I had to have a self mantra which made me realise if people i loved left, then it would hurt but that i would get over it.. i had to know i was mentally strong enough to do that i think. I had to weigh up the pro's and cons. The Cons (of keeping my old patterns were)-I would date people (like you said) who were emotionally unavailable, lived 3000 miles away or that i pretty much knew i wouldnt fall in love with. The Pros (Of trying not take the easy, deep as fuck snow and slush route)-I can be in a relationship with someone i love. 
I think you can decide for yourself what a good enough time is to give someone a chance-You could designate an amount of time even (unless they were fucking unbarable!).. Keep trying.
I think most people are terrified when it comes to falling in love.. its weird how one of the best things is also one of the most scary!! *Shakes fist at universe* -The right person may not make it as scary for you either...
I dunno..I wish there was an Oracle or something around here!!!!


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## AuntHen (Oct 27, 2009)

what I hate the most about this...

Just when I start feeling good about myself and telling myself I am worth being with..i am worth knowing and loving... feeling hopeful & positive about someone seeing that in me... I start picking at all the things I do not like about myself physically, mentally etc and sabotage a relationship that doesn't even exist yet (especially in the romantic sense)


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## steely (Oct 29, 2009)

I can't talk about this right now, I thought I could but death is the ultimate abandonment. I thought I could share but not now...


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## littlefairywren (Oct 29, 2009)

steely said:


> I can't talk about this right now, I thought I could but death is the ultimate abandonment. I thought I could share but not now...



Hiya steely, I know we are not close but I send you (((hugs))) and support


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 2, 2009)

steely said:


> I can't talk about this right now, I thought I could but death is the ultimate abandonment. I thought I could share but not now...





(((((Steely))))) I'm so so sorry. It's just so damn unfair.


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## Fat.n.sassy (Nov 9, 2009)

<When I asked him why he was leaving my sister and I, he said that he had a new family now with new children that came first. He left without looking back. I am 41 now and that still has the ability to make me cry buckets if I let myself feel it.>

I hope you will forgive me, because I know down deep you still love your dad, but WHAT an ASS your dad was!! Unfortunately I sort of know how this feels. My adult self cries for your little girl inside self. 

(((Hugs))) Viv


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## graceofangels (Nov 9, 2009)

My issues are a little on teh reverse. I don't let anyone get close. My father was there all my life. But he spent it on the couch. He never participated in my life unless it was insult or hit me. There were many times he would tell me i was no good. that i wasn't worth it and i was mistake. In fact, before my mother finally divorced him when I was 20, I told him straight to his face that the only person he remotely loved in the house was my mother. The rest of us he put up with since she cared for us. All he did was shrug.

It's times like that that I wish my dad had been a deadbeat. That he had left. Instead now, I have issues trusting people and even trying to let someone in.


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## KHayes666 (Nov 23, 2009)

graceofangels said:


> My issues are a little on teh reverse. I don't let anyone get close. My father was there all my life. But he spent it on the couch. He never participated in my life unless it was insult or hit me. There were many times he would tell me i was no good. that i wasn't worth it and i was mistake. In fact, before my mother finally divorced him when I was 20, I told him straight to his face that the only person he remotely loved in the house was my mother. The rest of us he put up with since she cared for us. All he did was shrug.
> 
> It's times like that that I wish my dad had been a deadbeat. That he had left. Instead now, I have issues trusting people and even trying to let someone in.



I missed this completely....I had no idea you had gone through that. I'm so sorry this happened to you, just wish there was someone in your life that's worth enough to get close to.


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## Leesa (Nov 23, 2009)

I thought this happened to everyone. Glad to know I am not alone.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 26, 2009)

Recognizing patterns seems to be a common theme.....some information I found out about it. 


> Pattern Matching - How the Brain Updates the Subconscious Mind
> 
> Pattern Matching is a primary brain process used to make sense of the world, learn from experience, create positive and negative habits, and develop addictions or other chronic conditions.
> 
> ...



http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/pattern_matching.html


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## mergirl (Nov 27, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Recognizing patterns seems to be a common theme.....some information I found out about it.
> 
> 
> http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/pattern_matching.html


Good info on pattern matching in the brain -cept whoever wrote it needs to know that humans were not around at the time of the T-rex as it discredits the rest of their science!!! (I had to bring that up as i am pedantic when it come to humans hunting dinosaurs!) *shakes fist*
apart from that i liked the imagary. Its also interesting because a lot of our fears and phobias and behaviours dont actually fit into our social world because they aren't consistent with our eea (environment of evolutionary adaptiveness). Evolutionary psychology is pretty new and there is not much empirical evidence as of yet to support it but it can explain some of the reasons people do what they do, for better or for worse and the ways we deal with others behaving badly towards us and the reasons we develop co-dependency, addictive behaviours etc. Its just one perspective but it seems to make sense on many levels.


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## littlefairywren (Nov 27, 2009)

Fat.n.sassy said:


> <When I asked him why he was leaving my sister and I, he said that he had a new family now with new children that came first. He left without looking back. I am 41 now and that still has the ability to make me cry buckets if I let myself feel it.>
> 
> I hope you will forgive me, because I know down deep you still love your dad, but WHAT an ASS your dad was!! Unfortunately I sort of know how this feels. My adult self cries for your little girl inside self.
> 
> (((Hugs))) Viv



Viv, I am sorry I did not see this sooner. I don't venture into this thread too often, it kinda hurts. Thank you


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## katherine22 (Dec 2, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Recognizing patterns seems to be a common theme.....some information I found out about it.
> 
> 
> http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/pattern_matching.html



Thanks GEF for all the information.


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