# Lifting Weights



## Damon (Apr 29, 2007)

I know alot of people have tried "excercise" in an effort to lose weight. However no one ever says anything about weight lifting. So I'd like to know if anyone has tried using a weightlifting/bodybuilding routine (by routine I mean a real PLAN not just going to the gym and dickin' around on a machine) that never worked. I'm not trying to be abrasive or mean so if I come off like a dick I'm sorry.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 29, 2007)

Damon said:


> I know alot of people have tried "excercise" in an effort to lose weight. However no one ever says anything about weight lifting. So I'd like to know if anyone has tried using a weightlifting/bodybuilding routine (by routine I mean a real PLAN not just going to the gym and dickin' around on a machine) that never worked. I'm not trying to be abrasive or mean so if I come off like a dick I'm sorry.



"No one"??? Are you sure about that? If you've read my posts, you'll see that I spent many years in a weight lifting routine, with real trainers, on real machines. I'm actually quite strong, but never managed to lose more than a handful of pounds. I had to quit for a couple of years prior to WLS because my Sarcoidosis and weight related problems meant that I couldn't exercise more than doing gentle things like yoga and stretching. But now I'm back at it again, working my cookies off. This time, again, I'm not losing weight, but that's not my goal.

Weight lifting is great for building muscle which yes, burns more calories at rest than fat. But it's not -- or wasn't for me -- a great way to lose weight. Even coupled with aerobics (back when I could do aerobics, and again now, after losing so much weight), I didn't lose weight. I felt great, but it didn't result in any weight loss at all.

The only thing that sounds abrasive to me in your post is your assumptions that a) we haven't tried weight lifting, and b) if we did it wasn't "real" weight lifting but just screwing around. I find that assumption offensive, but I assume you didn't mean to come off that way?


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm also not sure what you meant by worked?

While there can be an infinite number of debates about what works as far as weight loss, I don't think anyone has every thought or had an experience of a weight lifting regimine not "working" as far as building muscle. While such a condition may exist, I have never heard of anyone lifting weights regularly and not building or toning their muscles. Simple physiology dictates that is how human muscle tissue works. If you repeatedly lift a heavy weight, you will create small tears in muscle fibers which will be stronger as they repair. I've never heard of anyone that simply could not build muscle despite repeated and regular weight lifting.


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## ZainTheInsane (Apr 29, 2007)

I used to use weights...but honestly I get better results with just doing callistetics. I swear, my arms have never looked as big or have been as strong as they have since I started doing push-ups, sit-ups, and pull-ups combined with running and jumping rope.

And you are sorta coming off as a dick...but it happens, I would know.
So, yeah, I don't like weights because I haven't plateaued when not using them. I suppose if I can't go any further without weights I might try them again...but for me, it is really about being the best I can be without trying to go too far.


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## SamanthaNY (Apr 29, 2007)

Damon said:


> I know alot of people have tried "excercise" in an effort to lose weight. However no one ever says anything about weight lifting. So I'd like to know if anyone has tried using a weightlifting/bodybuilding routine (by routine I mean a real PLAN not just going to the gym and dickin' around on a machine) that never worked. I'm not trying to be abrasive or mean so if I come off like a dick I'm sorry.


In addition to what Vicki and LovesBHMs has already said, I'll add that it's neither reasonble nor safe to suggest to a collection of people (most of whom are significantly large) that a weight lifting plan will help them lose weight. 

Additionally, it does sound arrogant to suggest that we know little about "exercise" (that was cute - putting it in quotes like that, as if what we know or do is "silly") and/or weight lifting. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you have very little idea what the majority of us do for exercise. 

If you have some valuable information to share, why not just say "Hey, have you ever tried weight lifting?" and then say what you know. That's going to be much better received than what you've said here.


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## Damon (Apr 29, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> "No one"??? Are you sure about that? If you've read my posts, you'll see that I spent many years in a weight lifting routine, with real trainers, on real machines. I'm actually quite strong, but never managed to lose more than a handful of pounds. I had to quit for a couple of years prior to WLS because my Sarcoidosis and weight related problems meant that I couldn't exercise more than doing gentle things like yoga and stretching. But now I'm back at it again, working my cookies off. This time, again, I'm not losing weight, but that's not my goal.
> 
> Weight lifting is great for building muscle which yes, burns more calories at rest than fat. But it's not -- or wasn't for me -- a great way to lose weight. Even coupled with aerobics (back when I could do aerobics, and again now, after losing so much weight), I didn't lose weight. I felt great, but it didn't result in any weight loss at all.
> 
> The only thing that sounds abrasive to me in your post is your assumptions that a) we haven't tried weight lifting, and b) if we did it wasn't "real" weight lifting but just screwing around. I find that assumption offensive, but I assume you didn't mean to come off that way?



Wow I find it really suprising that weight training didnt lower your body fat. As for my comment about "real" weight training once again I'm sorry. I think alot of women get intimadated by the whole gym thing and I think alot of them dont really know what they are doing because they read stuff about bodybuilding that is not only outdated but practiced by people who use steroids. I also wonder how long your weight training sessons were. I ask because I think that very short and intense training seems to work better for me and I wonder if any one in the forum has tried it and what types of results they have gotten. If you like I could post some links to some stuff that can clarify what I mean.


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## Damon (Apr 29, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> In addition to what Vicki and LovesBHMs has already said, I'll add that it's neither reasonble nor safe to suggest to a collection of people (most of whom are significantly large) that a weight lifting plan will help them lose weight.
> 
> Additionally, it does sound arrogant to suggest that we know little about "exercise" (that was cute - putting it in quotes like that, as if what we know or do is "silly") and/or weight lifting. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you have very little idea what the majority of us do for exercise.
> 
> If you have some valuable information to share, why not just say "Hey, have you ever tried weight lifting?" and then say what you know. That's going to be much better received than what you've said here.



ok here goes.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/what-crossfit.html
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf 
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/Foundations.pdf

My wife and I did this for a about 2 months and she lost some body fat because her tummy started shrinking but the scale wasnt moving that much (maybe 10 - 15 lbs). I went to Iraq and she didnt really have anyone to watch the kids and she didnt want to go to the gym alone so she had WLS. she lost 100 lbs but alot of it was muscle.


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## toni (Apr 29, 2007)

Damon said:


> Wow I find it really suprising that weight training didnt lower your body fat. As for my comment about "real" weight training once again I'm sorry. I think alot of women get intimadated by the whole gym thing and I think alot of them dont really know what they are doing because they read stuff about bodybuilding that is not only outdated but practiced by people who use steroids. I also wonder how long your weight training sessons were. I ask because I think that very short and intense training seems to work better for me and I wonder if any one in the forum has tried it and what types of results they have gotten. If you like I could post some links to some stuff that can clarify what I mean.



That would be nice if you could post some stuff. How would one get into serious weight training without paying a trainer 90 bucks an hour? I always wanted to do it. It is true, that section of the gym is very intimidating. I think my body is totally weak. I would love to strength it. I really do not even care about the way it would impact my looks, I want to feel stronger.


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## Damon (Apr 29, 2007)

toni said:


> That would be nice if you could post some stuff. How would one get into serious weight training without paying a trainer 90 bucks an hour? I always wanted to do it. It is true, that section of the gym is very intimidating. I think my body is totally weak. I would love to strength it. I really do not even care about the way it would impact my looks, I want to feel stronger.



http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=645666

there you go I just hooked you up.


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## tonynyc (Apr 29, 2007)

It's more about 'lifestyle' as oppossed to focusing on the BMI . There are plenty of underweight folks that are also unhealthy. 

Whatever exercise plan one follows- be it swimming, walking, weightlifting, dancing, pilates. Just being active and enjoying is what matters.


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## SocialbFly (Apr 29, 2007)

Tony my friend, i couldnt agree more. Hugs to you for your comment.


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## Damon (Apr 29, 2007)

tonynyc said:


> It's more about 'lifestyle' as oppossed to focusing on the BMI . There are plenty of underweight folks that are also unhealthy.
> 
> Whatever exercise plan one follows- be it swimming, walking, weightlifting, dancing, pilates. Just being active and enjoying is what matters.



I agree Tony but think that one major fault people make is that they focus on the number on the scale. I've seen plenty of women with thighs that jiggle that have low body fat. However what alot of them do is starve themselves and put them selves in an even worse situation instead ( starving means less muscle mass). Doing some squats would be a better choice since it would be more likey to improve muscle tone. Am I making sense?


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## tonynyc (Apr 29, 2007)

SocialbFly said:


> Tony my friend, i couldnt agree more. Hugs to you for your comment.



What - just one hug - I'm greedy you know


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## tonynyc (Apr 29, 2007)

Damon said:


> I agree Tony but think that one major fault people make is that they focus on the number on the scale. I've seen plenty of women with thighs that jiggle that have low body fat. However what alot of them do is starve themselves and put them selves in an even worse situation instead ( starving means less muscle mass). Doing some squats would be a better choice since it would be more likey to improve muscle tone. Am I making sense?



Sometimes that may come down to genetics regardless of how intense someone's workout is. Look at the diffrences in compeititive bodybuilder physiques. One bodybuilder can be blessed with six pack abs and another may not. 

Bearing no other injury, I agree that Squats is one of the best muscle builders. If one cannot squat then do other exercises like walking up stairs, leg presses, dumbbell squats, sumo squats etc.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 29, 2007)

Damon said:


> Wow I find it really suprising that weight training didnt lower your body fat.



You're not the only one.  It did increase my muscle mass so I suppose that, percentage-wise it lowered my body fat. But no, I didn't lose any weight, or even really inches as a result of working out. That's not to say that it doesn't have great benefits, because it does. But for me it was useless when it came to weight loss.



> As for my comment about "real" weight training once again I'm sorry. I think alot of women get intimadated by the whole gym thing and I think alot of them dont really know what they are doing because they read stuff about bodybuilding that is not only outdated but practiced by people who use steroids.



And I know a lot of guys in the military who are illiterate goons who race sports cars, chew tobacco, and think it's cute to come to Alaska to kill small animals for sport. Should I then assume that most guys in the military are such?

I get my fitness advice from the fitness experts at the club I attend. They are certified instructors who are very knowledgeable about a) my body and its limitations and b) the latest research about exercise physiology.

In case you hadn't figured it out, I'm not like most women. In fact most women I know are not like most women.



> I also wonder how long your weight training sessons were. I ask because I think that very short and intense training seems to work better for me and I wonder if any one in the forum has tried it and what types of results they have gotten. If you like I could post some links to some stuff that can clarify what I mean.



No offense, and you have no way of knowing this, but I've already had my fill of exercise suggestions from guys on this board. One bloke, Vince, who owns a gym in Australia and was once Mr. Something or Other, used to love to give advice. If you don't mind, I'll continue doing what the people I know and trust -- who know my body -- tell me to do.

Also, Toni, if you need help with lifting, you don't have to pay someone to watch you work out every time. What people do at my club is pay someone for two or three sessions (they usually have a special for an introductory thing) and then occasionally check in for updates and tweaks. I just use the fitness folks who wander around (I know two of them and trust their advice, and so I seek them out) and have gotten some excellent suggestions and assistance when things didn't seem quite right.

I think it's really important that you have someone help you, in the flesh, to orient you to the machines and then check your positioning. Even the tiniest "offness" of your position can mean either a lack of proper muscle conditioning or injury.

Good luck! It's a lot of fun. I really enjoy feeling myself getting stronger and finding muscles I didn't know I had.


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## Frankie (Apr 29, 2007)

Plenty of people here have talked about incorporating weight training as part of an exercise routine. 

I should probably keep quiet since my visits to the gym have been very inconsistent lately, but here's part of a typical routine for me. I'm sure I could do better if I was more consistent about exercising.

- leg press: 3 sets of 10, 185 lbs
- leg curl: 3 sets of 10, 60-65 lbs
- seated row: 3 sets of 10, 60-65 lbs
- chest press: 3 sets of 10, 45-50 lbs
- 30 minutes on the elliptical trainer (levels 8 to 11, 125 strides per minute, cycling between inclines of 6 and 10%)

I wish I could do the leg extension, but it hurts my knees. If I have enough time, I try to get in 45 minutes of cardio between the elliptical and the recumbent bike.

What I do might not be terribly impressive, but it's certainly not "dicking around." My cardiovascular ability outstrips my muscle strength, but I'm working on that. I once overheard a trainer describe me to another member as "tough" - though he would never tell me that to my face.


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## Half Full (Apr 30, 2007)

I've been lurking here for a couple of months since I discovered Dimensions this winter but this finally moved me to make my first post-



Damon said:


> My wife and I did this for a about 2 months and she lost some body fat because her tummy started shrinking but the scale wasnt moving that much (maybe 10 - 15 lbs).



The "scale wasn't moving" because muscle is much heavier than fat! When you gain muscle from resistance training your body becomes more toned and you have a lower % of body fat even though you may actually weigh the same, more or slightly less because of the increased weight of increased muscle mass. And aren't you the one who wrote further down in this thread that one shouldn't rely just on what the scale says? Well, now you know why. But.... the really scary statement is this -



Damon said:


> I went to Iraq and she didnt really have anyone to watch the kids and she didnt want to go to the gym alone so she had WLS. she lost 100 lbs but alot of it was muscle.



The reason your wife had WLS is because she didn't have a babysitter??? Or a workout buddy??? This kind or rationale for irrevocably rearranging one's gastro-intestinal system is beyond frightening! The surgeon who preformed surgery on your wife, based on her "reasons" for being a candidate for WLS ought to have his license revoked immediately!

I don't mean any offense to your wife but this kind of cavalier way of seeing WLS as "the easy way out" is beyond frightening to me!


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

Half Full said:


> I've been lurking here for a couple of months since I discovered Dimensions this winter but this finally moved me to make my first post-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i fully understand why the scale wasnt moving. I myself wasnt the one who was worried about the number on the scale it was my wife. 


this is one of the reasons why i really dont WLS.I'm probably gonna piss more people off by saying this but I really do think that short, intense,weight training AND bodyweight training (crossfit, sprinting, and some of the other stuff i mentioned) but when I offer advice some people get mad.


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

Frankie said:


> Plenty of people here have talked about incorporating weight training as part of an exercise routine.
> 
> I should probably keep quiet since my visits to the gym have been very inconsistent lately, but here's part of a typical routine for me. I'm sure I could do better if I was more consistent about exercising.
> 
> ...



How many times a week do you do this?


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

Oh and I chew levi garrett too


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## SamanthaNY (Apr 30, 2007)

Damon said:


> this is one of the reasons why i really dont WLS.I'm probably gonna piss more people off by saying this but I really do think that short, intense,weight training AND bodyweight training (crossfit, sprinting, and some of the other stuff i mentioned) but when I offer advice some people get mad.


Yep, you're going to piss people off alright. Weight training, crossfit and sprinting (that one was really pretty funny) are *not *as applicable for someone at 375+ (with comorbidities and joint damage) as they may be for someone at 200 pounds. Your posts seem to indicate that you feel your fitness ideas are appropriate for every body - they're not. Can they be part of a fat person's fitness routine? Sure - some of those things can. Will they enable a very sick and very fat person to avoid WLS? I doubt it. 

WLS is an effort of last resort, when nothing else has worked. When a future life is in danger. When a body is so sick and so in trouble that drastic measures are needed. Someone in that situation is not going to start a training program such as you suggest. 

The reason people get mad, I think, is that you don't so much offer advice... as talk down to people, without knowing or understanding their circumstances. You simply feel your way solves everything for everyone. It may for _you_. It doesn't for everyone. You *do* have good advice to offer, and what you're saying in essence isn't wrong - but your delivery and lack of understanding hampers your efforts, IMO. 

I'm seeing more and more - that unless people ARE fat, and have carried around 200 or 300+ extra pounds with the associated problems, they have a severe lack of understanding (and, as a result, appropriate empathy) for those of us that do. It's a disturbing trend. I'm not saying this is your fault, Damon - I'm just saying that when you haven't lived _this _life - you can't understand it, and your posts bear that out.


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## Jes (Apr 30, 2007)

Frankie said:


> - 30 minutes on the elliptical trainer (levels 8 to 11, 125 strides per minute, cycling between inclines of 6 and 10%)
> .



you're frightening me.

if _that_ is just dicking around, then I must just be a dick. hahaha. 

I was lifting well, and a lot, for a while there. Then my friend, who trains for the 3-day/60 mile cancer walk, joined my gym and we do a lot of treadmilling and chatting to catch up. Which means less lifting. And my god, did I lose everything I'd done. had to set the weights SO low when I next did the circuit. I felt like such a loser and kept hoping no one was looking to see how little I was pushing.


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

Jes said:


> you're frightening me.
> 
> if _that_ is just dicking around, then I must just be a dick. hahaha.
> 
> I was lifting well, and a lot, for a while there. Then my friend, who trains for the 3-day/60 mile cancer walk, joined my gym and we do a lot of treadmilling and chatting to catch up. Which means less lifting. And my god, did I lose everything I'd done. had to set the weights SO low when I next did the circuit. I felt like such a loser and kept hoping no one was looking to see how little I was pushing.



Thanks Jes you proved one of the points that I tried to make earlier. I'm gonna REEXPLAIN myself a hopefully I wont hurt anyones feelings again.


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

here's a picture of a sprinter http://www.honewatson.com/images/allyson-felix.jpg
she's got low bodyfat and a considerable amount of muscle. I'm sure her training sessions are brief and intense. http://www.honewatson.com/09/19/deadlift-training-exercise-technique/ click the link that says tabata protocal, I'm sure that will give you an idea of how sprinters train.

Hers is a pic of some marathon runners. http://www.ilfilosofo.com/wp-content/uploads/marathon_women.jpg Note how skinny and starved they look. You can see bones sticking out and their muscle tone really isnt all that great. They train for long and less intense periods of time.(Sorta like Jane Fonda aerobics)

Sprinters have more muscle and are stronger. I also think they look better than the marathoners and both of them probably have the same amounts of body fat.
Most people are very busy and dont have alot of time to work out. If I could get a great body by training harder for 20-30 minutes instead of 90-120 minutes I would do the shorter workout.
I also realize that because of size and medical problems of some of the people on this site cant do certain exercises. But there are always alternatives. Lets say you cant do pull ups. How about doing cable pull downs instead. Cant run? Use the tabata method on a bike or elliptical machine. Are you catching my drift? Find stuff that you CAN do. The only diet advice that I'm gonna put out there is give the Zone a try. All it really is is cutting back on bread and adding more fruit and veggies.
I plug crossfit.com alot because well.........it works. If you read the getting started section of the page they give you advice on what you can do to make the workouts easier to fit your current level of fitness.Second of all its free!! So don't think I'm selling anything. 
All I wanna do is help the people that are considering weight loss surgey because noting else has worked. I think they key is to start by finding things you CAN do and building from there. I remember when I could only do 3 handstand pushups how I can do 10. Well I hope I was able to help some of you out.


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## tonynyc (Apr 30, 2007)

This is a pretty good thread and a good start in sharing possible fitness routines. I hope that this forum grows and more folks share what works and doesn't work for them.

I think we had an earlier thread regarding 'bodybuilding' just on calesthetics and got a pretty good response on that....

I am a firm believer that a perosn can be both large and fit and it's always nice to see a perosn of size working out in the gym.

The nutrition discussion can pretty much be it's own thread. My own rant is that how expensive 'healthy' food is ....

I'm sure the sprinters and maranthon runners are fine in their own right - but we need to see some cute pictures of BBWs in the Track and Field events.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 30, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> I'm seeing more and more - that unless people ARE fat, and have carried around 200 or 300+ extra pounds with the associated problems, they have a severe lack of understanding (and, as a result, appropriate empathy) for those of us that do. It's a disturbing trend. I'm not saying this is your fault, Damon - I'm just saying that when you haven't lived _this _life - you can't understand it, and your posts bear that out.



So very very very very VERY VERY true. It's easy for someone without weight issues to say "Oh, well, just go on the Zone or work out more or faster or whatever..." to lose weight. It's a whole other thing, however, to do that when you're 300 pounds or more with joint problems. I did the Zone. Lost a handful of pounds. I worked out for years, with a fitness instructor. Got stronger but didn't lose weight. The implication that I failed somehow because I needed WLS is more than a little insulting.

As you say, it shows a lack of understanding and empathy for the problems that fat folks face. Maybe Damon, if he wants to understand us, could read more of our posts before giving exercise advice; I'm happy to listen to advice, but I can't give it the same weight, so to speak, when it comes from someone who doesn't really understand our issues.


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## HottiMegan (Apr 30, 2007)

I am a firm believer in building muscle for health and well being. Unfortunately i have NO access to weights. I have a whole bunch of free weights and a bench but i live in a small 2 bedroom apartment and have absolutely no space. I am well versed in circuit training and once upon a time i was into body building (i could bench nearly 200lbs in a set and over 450lb leg presses.. ) 

But as someone who recently went from low 400's to high 200's i can see how it would be hard for someone bigger than me or even my size to do gym work. Those machines aren't exactly fat friendly and they can be scary looking if you don't know what you're working. Free weights can be even more intimidating since you have to regulate your movements and figure ways to use them to work different muscle groups. 

Once one gets in the grove of body building/weight training, it's really fun and rewarding. The biggest kick i got out of it was when i could lift my boobs by flexing my pecks lol (i still freak my hubby out with that one) I haven't weight trained in like 10 years and i miss it. I will get back to it in another 30lbs i think. I'm hoping to join a gym for my birthday present this year.


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## tonynyc (Apr 30, 2007)

HottiMegan said:


> I am a firm believer in building muscle for health and well being. Unfortunately i have NO access to weights. I have a whole bunch of free weights and a bench but i live in a small 2 bedroom apartment and have absolutely no space.



Given the limited space- do you have adjustable dumbbells?
You can do the same exercises that one would do with a barbell.


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## Frankie (Apr 30, 2007)

Damon said:


> How many times a week do you do this?



I try to go to the gym three times a week. In an ideal world, I'd get in a fourth session of cardio (but I figure three times a week with weights is enough).


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> So very very very very VERY VERY true. It's easy for someone without weight issues to say "Oh, well, just go on the Zone or work out more or faster or whatever..." to lose weight. It's a whole other thing, however, to do that when you're 300 pounds or more with joint problems. I did the Zone. Lost a handful of pounds. I worked out for years, with a fitness instructor. Got stronger but didn't lose weight. The implication that I failed somehow because I needed WLS is more than a little insulting.
> 
> As you say, it shows a lack of understanding and empathy for the problems that fat folks face. Maybe Damon, if he wants to understand us, could read more of our posts before giving exercise advice; I'm happy to listen to advice, but I can't give it the same weight, so to speak, when it comes from someone who doesn't really understand our issues.



I lack empathy? I offer alternatives because some of you have problems doing certain movements and you say I lack empathy? Tony asked Hottiemegan if she had ajustable weights because they save space. Does he lack empathy too? If you feel that I implied that you failed and had to get weight loss surgery, I'm really sorry thats not what intended to do. When I first started this thread I said that it wasn't my intent to hurt anyones feelings. The main point that I'm trying to make here is that there is a more effective way to loose fat than doing aerobic type excerises for 2 hours a day. Why because that style of training destroys muscle and I tried to prove my point with pictures. Destroying your lean body mass destroys your ablity to burn more calories when resting. My wife used to weigh 300 lbs. For a few months we went to the gym together and did the type of training I've been talking about. I dont know how much fat she lost but the scale only moved about 5-15 pounds and her belly shrank alot. I never said any one FAILED. So i'm gonna say this once again......... I know some of you have mobility problems but their are alternative movements that you can use.


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## Frankie (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm not sure this takes into account people's muscle/build types - that whole endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph thing. Some people are "made" to be sprinters, and some are "made" to be marathon runners.

Someone once suggested this may be why I can kick butt on the elliptical trainer, but I can't get anywhere on the treadmill. I can barely crack 3.0 miles an hour on the treadmill, and while some of my leg muscles will be screaming for mercy, I will not have broken a sweat at all. But on the elliptical trainer, I can crank up the resistance, the incline, sweat buckets, and close in on the upper end of my target heart range. The same thing goes for the recumbent bike. And I don't play around at the gym because of my expensive membership and the trainer who walks around upping the resistance/incline on machines and otherwise pushing my limits.

I should probably mention that I'm 5'4" and about 210-215 lbs.

I imagine that lots of fat people are not dumb when it comes to exercise. It's just a matter of wanting and being able to do x,y,z. I can't make any assumptions about what people are/aren't capable of, especially since I don't know what it's like to live in a larger body than mine. I'm sure your intentions are good, but you do seem to come across as lecturing and condescending.




Damon said:


> here's a picture of a sprinter http://www.honewatson.com/images/allyson-felix.jpg
> she's got low bodyfat and a considerable amount of muscle. I'm sure her training sessions are brief and intense. http://www.honewatson.com/09/19/deadlift-training-exercise-technique/ click the link that says tabata protocal, I'm sure that will give you an idea of how sprinters train.
> 
> Hers is a pic of some marathon runners. http://www.ilfilosofo.com/wp-content/uploads/marathon_women.jpg Note how skinny and starved they look. You can see bones sticking out and their muscle tone really isnt all that great. They train for long and less intense periods of time.(Sorta like Jane Fonda aerobics)
> ...


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## Damon (Apr 30, 2007)

HottiMegan said:


> I am a firm believer in building muscle for health and well being. Unfortunately i have NO access to weights. I have a whole bunch of free weights and a bench but i live in a small 2 bedroom apartment and have absolutely no space. I am well versed in circuit training and once upon a time i was into body building (i could bench nearly 200lbs in a set and over 450lb leg presses.. )
> 
> But as someone who recently went from low 400's to high 200's i can see how it would be hard for someone bigger than me or even my size to do gym work. Those machines aren't exactly fat friendly and they can be scary looking if you don't know what you're working. Free weights can be even more intimidating since you have to regulate your movements and figure ways to use them to work different muscle groups.
> 
> Once one gets in the grove of body building/weight training, it's really fun and rewarding. The biggest kick i got out of it was when i could lift my boobs by flexing my pecks lol (i still freak my hubby out with that one) I haven't weight trained in like 10 years and i miss it. I will get back to it in another 30lbs i think. I'm hoping to join a gym for my birthday present this year.



here's a kick ass leg workout you dont need weights for. You may need to scale it back a bit depending on your fitness levels (20 seconds of work then a 10 second rest). I'm not tryin to be a dick or talk down to you I just wanted to help.http://youtube.com/watch?v=ku-eOGXScOQ


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 30, 2007)

Damon said:


> I lack empathy? I offer alternatives because some of you have problems doing certain movements and you say I lack empathy?



No. You seemed to lack empathy and understanding because you suggested the Zone or just changing how we work out as the cure for obesity. As if we hadn't tried any of that, as if many of us haven't struggled with following one diet or another for, oh, our entire adult lives. 



> Tony asked Hottiemegan if she had ajustable weights because they save space. Does he lack empathy too?



No, because he asked a question in a gentle way.



> If you feel that I implied that you failed and had to get weight loss surgery, I'm really sorry thats not what intended to do. When I first started this thread I said that it wasn't my intent to hurt anyones feelings.



My feelings weren't "hurt". You don't have the power to do that. However, I was a little offended that you seemed to be saying that all we needed was to do more to lose weight. As though we're so friggin' dumb that we haven't TRIED EVERYTHING to lose weight. I felt you were talking down to us. Even if it isn't your intent to insult, some of us felt insulted (not unlike what happened in the married thread with VB -- I honestly don't think you mean to be insulting, but sometimes your word choice needs some help). There are just more careful ways of saying things, is all, and a different tact (or any tact) would be helpful.

Maybe I'm not being fair to you because what you're doing is a lot like what another well meaning (I think) so called fitness guru used to tell us. He would make suggestions, based on his experience as a fit male body builder that just didn't resonate with us, and basically it felt like blaming us for being fat. I know you're not him, but your attitude reminds me a lot of him. He actually told me that if I wasn't sore after a workout that it was time wasted, which is in direct contradiction to what a) my physician and b) my fitness instructor told me. Imagine if I'd followed his advice and continued to work myself past the point of comfort. I could easily have injured myself. 



> The main point that I'm trying to make here is that there is a more effective way to loose fat than doing aerobic type excerises for 2 hours a day.



Again with the assumptions. Who does aerobics two hours a day? I do 40-60 minutes of cardio as recommended by the American Heart Association, and about 30 minutes of weight training three times a week as suggested by the current research for strength training.

I think your approach is interesting, but you seem to be saying that if we don't do it your way we're doomed to (fat) failure. I hope that's not what you're saying but that's kind of how it sounds. I didn't need WLS because I didn't exercise 'right'. I needed WLS because of a complex interaction of genetics, early fasting, metabolic malfunction, stupid food choices, an inflammatory disease that limited my ability to be active and probably a host of other reasons. I think there's rarely "just one thing" (that includes WLS) that works for everyone and I guess I get twitchy when it feels like that's what someone is saying, particularly if that person hasn't struggled with weight issues. 



> My wife used to weigh 300 lbs. For a few months we went to the gym together and did the type of training I've been talking about. I dont know how much fat she lost but the scale only moved about 5-15 pounds and her belly shrank alot.



Good for her. I'm not your wife (I know this is not news to you ) but it's important to realize that each BODY is different. Every person's ability to move is different. I have structural issues (inflammatory disease, which is not unheard of in our population) that don't allow me to do the kind of bursts of activity that you're talking about, and for those with concomitant breathing problems what you're talking about could be dangerous. Sprinting? Are you KIDDING??? To even suggest that shows, to me, a lack of understanding about fat bodies. And that's okay. I don't expect you to understand. But I'd hope that you would listen to us instead of what I feel like you're doing which is talking down to us. Maybe that's not your intention but it feels like that.

But yes, you're right. It's possible to lose lots of body fat without the scale moving. I've definitely noticed that lately since I've stepped up my weight lifting. I'm not losing weight, but I am losing inches. This is not news. Many of us have pointed this out in various threads, which again brings up my point. Maybe if you tried to understand us a little bit more your ideas would be more appropriate for our group.



> I never said any one FAILED. So i'm gonna say this once again......... I know some of you have mobility problems but their are alternative movements that you can use.



Yes, you implied it. You first assumed that we hadn't tried weight lifting, and then questioned whether my workouts were the right kind or not because of what has worked for YOU, and last I checked, you're not a fat, 40+ year old woman with an autoimmune disease and hyperinsulinemia. You then go on to say that you don't agree with WLS but rather suggest exercising differently (your way) to lose fat. I'm glad your way works for you (and worked for your wife) but I wonder how doable many of the things that you suggest are for the average fat person. 

I always suggest that people find something that they can do within their level of fitness and ability, and I let them find things that work for them. For one person it might be water aerobics, because it's gentle on the joints and provides a great workout. For another it might be the elliptical, or a bike, or whatever. But I never say, or even imply, that because something worked for me that it "it just works" but rather, it worked for ME. I think that's the part that is raising some hackles.

I do think you mean well. I just wish I felt, given your posts, that you understand the issues that we as fat folks face when considering exercise.


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## tonynyc (Apr 30, 2007)

Damon said:


> I lack empathy? I offer alternatives because some of you have problems doing certain movements and you say I lack empathy? Tony asked Hottiemegan if she had ajustable weights because they save space. Does he lack empathy too? If you feel that I implied that you failed and had to get weight loss surgery, I'm really sorry thats not what intended to do. When I first started this thread I said that it wasn't my intent to hurt anyones feelings. The main point that I'm trying to make here is that there is a more effective way to loose fat than doing aerobic type excerises for 2 hours a day. Why because that style of training destroys muscle and I tried to prove my point with pictures. Destroying your lean body mass destroys your ablity to burn more calories when resting. My wife used to weigh 300 lbs. For a few months we went to the gym together and did the type of training I've been talking about. I dont know how much fat she lost but the scale only moved about 5-15 pounds and her belly shrank alot. I never said any one FAILED. So i'm gonna say this once again......... I know some of you have mobility problems but their are alternative movements that you can use.



Yes- I thought that I would add the comment about dumbell training as one can get very strong. Another option is surgical tubing. 

In addition, i think I'll add a different perspective regarding exercise and bodysize. I also think that one way a perosn can understand is to workout with a weighted vest. The additional pounds would give a different perspective.

In terms of my workout history. Eight years ago I weighed about 
310-320lbs. and was really into hardcore 'strength' training. One of my weekly workouts consisted of doing nothing but parallel bar dips in the gym and the scheme was as followed...

Parallel Bar Dips 1st set 5reps
2nd set 5reps (add 20 lbs - tied around waist)
3rd set 5 reps (add 40 lbs - tied around waist)
***4th set 5 reps (add 60 lbs - tied around waist)
Bodyweight only 8 sets 8 reps

*** gradually worked up to 100lbs tied around the waist on the 4th set 

This was followed by a cuban press with 50lbs dumbells on each hand.
you Clean the dumbbells to shoulder level - then press forward. 

Now what happened over time- injuries to both rotator cuffs. 

I've had to rethink how I train. I'm at a lighter bodyweight now 260lbs. Instead of the exercise being pure 'strength' only - add some cardio better for me in the long run. I've also had to change the way I do certian exercises;ie, pushups. And... no more parallel bar dips. 

Certain impact movements on the joints- ie, running, can be murder for a large person. Also, the heavier the bodyweight the less practical to do some exercises like pullups or chinups. 

You follow certian routines in the Muscle mag or websites - but, wonder if the results are just from the exercise themselves or other 'chemical' enhancers. 

I enjoy weight training- but, will be the first to admit that it can be boring and you have to think 'out of the box' to get an interesting workout. 

One workout that I enjoyed doing was water areobics in a deep pool. What a kickass, never knew that I would be 'sweating' while I was in the pool; also, using 'Water' weights was another interesting variation.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 30, 2007)

Tony, I meant to mention resistance bands. Those can be great for folks and they're adjustable, portable, and cheap. I had a Richard Simmons workout tap that used those and it was a kickASS workout.


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## tonynyc (May 1, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> Tony, I meant to mention resistance bands. Those can be great for folks and they're adjustable, portable, and cheap. I had a Richard Simmons workout tap that used those and it was a kickASS workout.



Vicky:

Strand Pulling is another excellent alternative to 'weight' training. There are a variety of sets to choose from. You can go with some of the commercial sets that are listed on the various sites below. There may be others - but , only listing a few.
I have listed some links below- hard to find Cable Courses that aren't geared towards 'bodybuilding' - but check out the Joe Bonomo site for starters. He was an oldtime strongman and the site does list a complete reprint of his cable course from the 1950s. Since you are finding the Richard Simmons stuff fairly easy- you can see how these work. I'm not too familiar with the Exercises that Richard would do-but, I guess you can compare programs. 

A cheap alternative to Cables are Bike Innertubes. You would only have to cute out the valve. Just wear protective goggles when you are working out (always good to protect the eyes ) when working with tubing. You can go pretty 'hardcore' based on the strength of the innertubes or tubing or expanders.

=============================================
Joe Bonomo Cable Course
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Bonomo/bonomo.htm
==========================================
Mike Brown -Samson Cable Set
http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/cables.htm
===========================================
Matt Furey - Cable Course
http://www.mattfurey.com/expander.html
============================================
Masters Training Course
http://www.leeapperson.com/bookone/page10intensity.html
===============================================


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## Damon (May 1, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> No. You seemed to lack empathy and understanding because you suggested the Zone or just changing how we work out as the cure for obesity. As if we hadn't tried any of that, as if many of us haven't struggled with following one diet or another for, oh, our entire adult lives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know somthing I really don't your reading or undertstanding exactly what i'm saying. I already know that some of you cant sprint.Which is why I said you could use the tabata protocal for just about any excercise that you CAN do. I didnt say you had to sprint. When I sent Megan the video I said "adjust it to your level of fitness". Any I have to go for a few weeks maybe I'll post again.


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## chickadee (May 18, 2007)

Damon- even if people can sprint or can't sprint, that's not the issue. I think the problem for me is that you are offering your advice and saying that it is applicable to all the folks who are overweight. Short sprints and intense weight training is not for everyone. Whether you're thin or whether you're overweight, the fact is that I think it helps people to go to a physical trainer and get a plan that is specifically tailored to their needs.


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## Damon (May 18, 2007)

chickadee said:


> Damon- even if people can sprint or can't sprint, that's not the issue. I think the problem for me is that you are offering your advice and saying that it is applicable to all the folks who are overweight. Short sprints and intense weight training is not for everyone. Whether you're thin or whether you're overweight, the fact is that I think it helps people to go to a physical trainer and get a plan that is specifically tailored to their needs.



Or you could do your own research/studying and know MORE than alot of the personal trainers and empower yourself.


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## tonynyc (May 18, 2007)

While I was reading some of the post- I went back and wanted to see what things are there as far as building *Functional Strength *for People of Size .

=========================================================


While it's hard to find machines and exercises that work for larger people, even bigger obstacles abound in every day life. Forget about getting to the gym...what if you have trouble even getting in and out of a car? If you struggle with simple movements, learn some functional exercises you can do in the privacy of your own home to work on your balance, strength and mobility. 

*Functional Exercise *
If you have trouble with movements like getting up from a chair, getting in and out of a car or up and down from curbs, this is where to start. Functional exercise means you're working on the very things you struggle with to improve quality of life. 

*1. Stepping Up and Down* 
A great place to start in functional exercise is with stepping. Daily life often involves stepping onto curbs and walking up and down stairs. A typical curb is about 2-6 inches high while the average flight of stairs may have 15 or more steps. Practicing your stepping at home can make it easier when you go out into the world. 

How to Practice: Using a Step, a nearby curb or a stair, step up with the right foot and then the left, holding onto the wall or a handrail for balance. Step down with the right foot followed by the left and repeat on the right foot 10 times. Switch and repeat with the left foot. Practice this each day, adding more repetitions and eventually balancing without holding onto anything. If you use a Step, start with the top and add risers over time to add intensity. 

Make it Harder: Stepping requires balance because there's a brief period when only one foot is on the floor. Practice balance by trying this: Stand near a wall (just in case you need it) and lift the right foot off the floor, balancing on your left. See how long you can hold this position. Lower and repeat with the left foot. To make it harder, close your eyes. Eventually, move away from the wall and try it on your own. 

*2. Standing Up and Down *

Think about how many times you sit and stand each day--on chairs, couches, in cars and on toilets. If you have trouble with this activity, the simple act of sitting and standing can be frustrating. The average toilet is about 15 inches high, while the average chair is about 16-17 inches. That means you need to able squat down to 15 inches from the floor at least 10 times in a day. Squatting requires strength in the legs, abs and back as well as good balance and stability.

How to Practice: Using a familiar chair or even a toilet (with the lid down, of course), begin by sitting and standing 8 times. Each day, practice sitting and standing, using arm rests or handrails if you need to at first. Over time, add more repetitions and try to balance without holding onto anything. 
Make it harder: If you want to progress, try squatting without sitting all the way down. By working against gravity and momentum, you'll strengthen your leg muscles, core and improve balance. Try this: Place a chair behind you and sit down on it (so you know where it is). Then stand up and squat as though you're about to sit down. Stop a few inches above the chair, stand up and repeat. 

*3. Getting In and Out of a Car *

This can be a tough one for everyone, not just the overweight or obese and, for some, the difficulty in maneuvering in and out of a small car is just one more reason to stay home. By practicing this move, you can improve your strength and agility. 

Try this: Sit in your car and practice getting out--step one leg out and then the other (try not to twist when you get out...this can cause back injuries). Now, use your hands to help push you up and out of the car and then sit back down and repeat. Your goal is to be able to push yourself out of the car using the strength of your legs and torso rather than relying on pulling on the car door (which could slam on your fingers---ouch!). 

Source:

http://exercise.about.com/od/weightloss/a/obese_strength.htm

=======================================================

*Focused Strength Training *

Seated strength training is a great place to start if you're a beginner--there are many upper and lower body exercises you can do in a chair and, once you master these, you can move on to standing exercises to target balance, stability, strength and better functionality. Check with your doctor before you begin any type of exercise program. 

Check the Link below for the Diagrams and Rep Scheme

http://exercise.about.com/cs/exerciseworkouts/l/blobeseexercise.htm


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## Sandie S-R (May 18, 2007)

Damon said:


> I know alot of people have tried "excercise" in an effort to lose weight. However no one ever says anything about weight lifting. So I'd like to know if anyone has tried using a weightlifting/bodybuilding routine (by routine I mean a real PLAN not just going to the gym and dickin' around on a machine) that never worked. I'm not trying to be abrasive or mean so if I come off like a dick I'm sorry.



I lift weights for strength, not to lose weight. In so doing, I have really improved my mobility, and strength. I also stretch daily. I use small weights at home, and I have a regular routine. No big deal plan, no gym, no machines. And it has worked very well. I've been doing it for over 30 years (with some changes over the years). 

And yes, Damon, it is unfortunate but you do come off rather abrasive. We have had other body builders here who had the same effect. Maybe it is a body builder thing. But try to remember, you have not expierenced our level of fatness, so trying to tell us that body building and weight training will fix all our problems, doesn't always fly. We can all make improvements in our movement and mobilty, but serious weight training and body building is really not something that is viable for a lot of us (especially at a gym). Most gyms are not accommodating, most trainers at gyms have never worked with very fat people before, and it can be very frightening for a fat person (especially supersizes) to attempt to join a gym.


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## Damon (May 19, 2007)

Sandie S-R said:


> I lift weights for strength, not to lose weight. In so doing, I have really improved my mobility, and strength. I also stretch daily. I use small weights at home, and I have a regular routine. No big deal plan, no gym, no machines. And it has worked very well. I've been doing it for over 30 years (with some changes over the years).
> 
> And yes, Damon, it is unfortunate but you do come off rather abrasive. We have had other body builders here who had the same effect. Maybe it is a body builder thing. But try to remember, you have not expierenced our level of fatness, so trying to tell us that body building and weight training will fix all our problems, doesn't always fly. We can all make improvements in our movement and mobilty, but serious weight training and body building is really not something that is viable for a lot of us (especially at a gym). Most gyms are not accommodating, most trainers at gyms have never worked with very fat people before, and it can be very frightening for a fat person (especially supersizes) to attempt to join a gym.




Dear Sandie,
To put it bluntly yeah I think I fucked up big time when I started this thread. I think it's great that your doing your own thing at home with out weights. You're thinking outside the box and have found an effective training method but some people are locked into the idea that they have to use a treadmill for at least an hour a day. Some people don't know what excercises are best for certain muscle groups. All I really wanted to do is try to help out the people who don't know. I have never been a 300 lb. woman but I have trained one for a few months and my methods were working. FAST. Unfortunately I had to go to Iraq so she didn't stick with it. I'm sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. If the "Health" forum opens up I would like to start listing excersises that I think people of size could do at home.

I hope you can understand.................


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## tonynyc (May 19, 2007)

Damon and Sandie: I guess I will have to disagree with some points in both of your earlier threads - but, for different reasons. It's time to think outside the box at various levels... 

1. I think it's unfair to say that bodybuilders are abrasive. It's stereotyping. It comes down to the person and how they bring their point across. We've had some Dimmers here that are into all sort of workouts (weightlifting, martial arts, running etc. etc. )and the conversations in the different topics has been good.

2. I am a firm believer that a person can be both big and athletic. I assume by very fat -would mean an athlete that was at least 300Lbs. Who's to say that a 'fat' person cannot do intense workout? Of course bearing no unforseen condition: Sumo Wrestlers ( Manny Yarborough 6'7" 740lbs), Weightlifters, Track and Field participants,Football, Basketball (Shaq), Boxers. I've displayed this point on various threads throughout the Boards showing examples of Man and Women that are both Athletic and Big.

3. Also - in terms of any exercise - it does not matter whether a person loses weight or not - it's all about lifestyle and enjoying what you do. 

4. Most gyms are a 'social scene' - just to get a decent workout with no interruption means going in very early or at an off-hour. In addition, you can have the most knowledgeable trainer - it still boils down to what you can and cannot do and what exercises can work. 

5. One way to understand what 'large folks' have to go through is to maybe wear a 'weighted vest' or 'strap extra weights' around the waist and try to do 
some of the exercises ; ie, chins and pullups. 

6.We do have folks here of various levels of knowledge. Those that know what to do and those that don't. In my scenario- I've had to rethink the way I workout due to past injuries and surgeries. So though I enjoy reading on some of the workout ideas like short interval training, gymnastics etc. -but, will do different routines. Another issue- is that you can have folks that are fast gainers vs. slow gainers.


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## SamanthaNY (May 19, 2007)

I'm not trying to speak for Sandie - but she didn't say "all" bodybuilders are abrasive. I think what she's referring to is some past history we have on the boards with a bodybuilder... or two . Don't take offense - I'm sure it wasn't about you, and certainly not meant to insult you.

I think it's great when people bring their knowledge to the boards in an effort to help others. Personally, I'm grateful to have folks like you and Damon to give us some inside information. We will give you feedback though - hopefully that give and take will work for all of us. 

Keep in mind that it's not just a large person's weight that affects their ability (and capability), it's their size. Large tummies, thighs, chests... all these things get in the way sometimes, and they interact differently on our bodies than they do on a smaller person. To fully understand what it's like for us to exercise, you'd have to not only strap on weights, but don a fat suit as well.


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## tonynyc (May 19, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> I'm not trying to speak for Sandie - but she didn't say "all" bodybuilders are abrasive. I think what she's referring to is some past history we have on the boards with a bodybuilder... or two . Don't take offense - I'm sure it wasn't about you, and certainly not meant to insult you.
> 
> I think it's great when people bring their knowledge to the boards in an effort to help others. Personally, I'm grateful to have folks like you and Damon to give us some inside information. We will give you feedback though - hopefully that give and take will work for all of us.
> 
> Keep in mind that it's not just a large person's weight that affects their ability (and capability), it's their size. Large tummies, thighs, chests... all these things get in the way sometimes, and they interact differently on our bodies than they do on a smaller person. To fully understand what it's like for us to exercise, you'd have to not only strap on weights, but don a fat suit as well.



Thanks - I'm grateful for all the folks that share their feedback 'knowledge' goes both ways. Just reading other exercise related post on this Forum forced me rethink how weighttraining can fall into different areas: bodybuilding - strength - cardio - functional. Each area can be a thread in it's own.

I just started a thread on Functional Training on the Health Board-and will update with interesting articles accordingly... 

From my own perspective - I've enjoyed strength training and weightlifting. I appreciate what bodybuilders have to go through - but, I just don't have the natural genetics to be one. 

Now - my take on bodybuilders is that they cycle their training like anyone else. Very few individuals can maintain that 'shredded' 'vascular' shape year round. I think the few rare exceptions has been Clarence Bass and he's a naturally thin and muscular. 

I didn't even think about donning the fat suit. I guess that along with the strapping of weights should give a real understanding as to what one has to go through.


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