# BBW's and The Body Beautiful



## Dr. Feelgood (Nov 27, 2008)

This is an attempt to springboard off a thread Les Toil started in Hyde Park a couple of days ago. He was commenting on a weight-loss ad that featured "before and after" pictures. "Before" was a mid-sized BBW with an hourglass shape; "after" was much slimmer, with what I would call a "boyish" figure (because I looked a lot like that in junior high). After considerable discussion, Fascinita wrote: "One solution to the problem... might be to look at the deeper causes for the constant scrutiny of women's bodies and the culture's hyper-focus on defining "perfect female body." Let's do that.

My $.02 worth: Different body shapes have gone in and out of fashion. In the 1920's, flappers bound their breasts to achieve a boyish figure; that was, perhaps coincidentally, about the time women began to enter the work force in large numbers. Ever since the 1960's, I have observed the "perfect female body" growing progressively thinner as women's participation and leadership in many areas has increased. I remember once when I was dating a woman who was taller than I, one of my male friends asked, "Aren't you afraid she will dominate you?" I thought it was a silly question, but I wonder if this fear might not be a contributing factor to an increased identification of slenderness (fragility?) with beauty. Are thinner women in demand partly because they are seen as weaker or easier to dominate? Conversely,is it commoner for FA's to value strength and independence in women than for non-FA's? Or is it too much of an individual matter to tell? What do you think?


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## kropotkin_fan (Nov 28, 2008)

Possibly, though I am somewhat skeptical of such connections myself, particularly since the correlation, if any, seems to go the other way. The oft-quoted heyday of fat as beautiful, before the 20th century, was rife with sexism to a degree that vastly outstrips the modern West. And then look at countries like Mauritania where fat women are preferred, hardly paragons of sexual equality. In addition I dunno if I would necessarily equate thin with weak, either. If anything, thinness implies exercise and exercise hardly suggests weakness.


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## tonynyc (Nov 28, 2008)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Ever since the 1960's, I have observed the "perfect female body" growing progressively thinner as women's participation and leadership in many areas has increased. I remember once when I was dating a woman who was taller than I, one of my male friends asked, "Aren't you afraid she will dominate you?" I thought it was a silly question, but I wonder if this fear might not be a contributing factor to an increased identification of slenderness (fragility?) with beauty. Are thinner women in demand partly because they are seen as weaker or easier to dominate? Conversely,is it commoner for FA's to value strength and independence in women than for non-FA's? Or is it too much of an individual matter to tell? What do you think?




*

Thinner women may be in the 'so-called' demand based on the expectations the media. Your friend may have doubts about dating a taller women due to his own insecurity. 

Very interesting point - I would like to take them to another direction. In terms of our Dimensions community - it has been bought up by others on other threads on what is considered the 'ideal' bodytype for BBWs and FAs. 

I guess at the end of the day it's not so much what is 'ideal';but, what the individual preferences are.
*


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## Shosh (Nov 28, 2008)

I think that I for one get sick of our bodies as women being constantly scrutinized, analyzed, objectified, discussed, obsessed over.

So yay let's discuss what we think is the perfect body shape again. Don't let women just be, we need to be put through this all over again.


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## orin (Nov 28, 2008)

I blame fashion 

sorry if there any gay dudes here but 

most male fashion designers are gay .. that like boyish looking models ... and put them out there to show thier stuff .. they do not care much for curves .... 

people on society looks at that and assumes that to be the defacto standard of beauty !!!


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## olwen (Nov 28, 2008)

Dr. Feelgood, the heart of the matter isn't about female beauty, it's about female power, rather, sexual power and who controls it. It always has been and it seems like it always will be. I've always thought that for some men, the fact that women can give birth and they can't, and the power that women have over their libido's scares them enough to keep women from having true power. So we end up with values, laws, rules, mores that tell women any time they try to control what happens to their bodies (i.e. reproductive issues) they are bad, immoral, wrong, whores, sluts, loose, etc, etc. Men do that partly by convincing women they don't look good enough, and women buy into it and beat themeselves up, put each other down, and do all they can to undermine themselves. They spend a lot of time telling themselves their worth is dependent on how they look. 

Men are mostly judged on their actions and their character, but women are judged mostly on how they look. It's ridiculous. Traditional women's work has always been undervalued and deemed easy to do. And even then, activities that were always relegated to women didn't begin to have value until men took them over. How many famous male chefs are there compared to women? How many famous fashion designers are men? 

I'm not saying all men and women do this consciously, but I have observed the reactions from my male friends after I lost weight. All the comments were all about what they thought I should, could, and shouldn't, couldn't do with my body. I had one friend flat out tell me I couldn't lift weights anymore because it would make me less feminine. He was afraid I'd become more muscular than him. Mind you he didn't say that till he saw I was approaching the amount of weights he could lift himself. My other friend decided it wasn't cool that I was becoming a gym rat or a jock who liked to lift weights, but it was okay for his thin girlfriend to be a feminine pilates instructor.  No, I'm not bitter about it. I do know they couldn't stand the thought of a woman being stronger than them. It did make me angry that they felt like I wasn't entitled to physical strength because I am a woman. I call shennanigans.


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 28, 2008)

i don't want to take this thread on a tangent, but i think this is worth consideration. We need to remember that these ads are a component of the fitness industry, which is one of the most corrupt and unregulated businesses out there. i think a good documentary for people to check out that is somewhat related is called "bigger, faster, stronger". it actually focuses on aas use (anabolic/androgenic steroid), but it makes some great larger points about the concept of the male body ideal and how it is manipulated by the fitness industry through ineffective products and doctored pictures. in addition to the doctored pictures, these companies actually pay athletic people to gain weight and stand in such a way to accent it for the before pic and actually take the "after" picture before. Also, most of the male fitness models that you see on a bowflex commercial are aas users in addition to using quite a many other products.

i bring all that up because it is important to note that this industry which is on the front lines of the battle to spread anti-fat propaganda and paranoia are not marketing health but watered down supplements (sometimes snake oil) or ineffective exercise gear. The ideal isn't skinny but a user/consumer. They play on the insecurities that people already have to make them spend money. They do not have an earnest commitment to making people thin (their model of health).

As a fitness buff, i find it all fascinating. it really does go back to the concept of sexual power though as olwen pointed out. if you look at fitness magazines marketed to young men, its easy to see that sexual attractiveness is always a purchase away, be it a magazine, a can of whey protein, a cycle of steroids, etc. These are some magazine covers i've seen over the years. i think they show the way that the fitness industry plays one gender against another out of convenience.



























what's interesting is these are men that women don't necessarily find exceedingly or irresistibly attractive. finding that out was the shock of a lifetime for me.


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## elle camino (Nov 28, 2008)




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## t3h_n00b (Nov 28, 2008)

elle camino said:


>



looks like a jacked bobby hill.


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## goodthings (Nov 28, 2008)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> This is an attempt to springboard off a thread Les Toil started in Hyde Park a couple of days ago. He was commenting on a weight-loss ad that featured "before and after" pictures. "Before" was a mid-sized BBW with an hourglass shape; "after" was much slimmer, with what I would call a "boyish" figure (because I looked a lot like that in junior high). After considerable discussion, Fascinita wrote: "One solution to the problem... might be to look at the deeper causes for the constant scrutiny of women's bodies and the culture's hyper-focus on defining "perfect female body." Let's do that.
> 
> My $.02 worth: Different body shapes have gone in and out of fashion. In the 1920's, flappers bound their breasts to achieve a boyish figure; that was, perhaps coincidentally, about the time women began to enter the work force in large numbers. Ever since the 1960's, I have observed the "perfect female body" growing progressively thinner as women's participation and leadership in many areas has increased. I remember once when I was dating a woman who was taller than I, one of my male friends asked, "Aren't you afraid she will dominate you?" I thought it was a silly question, but I wonder if this fear might not be a contributing factor to an increased identification of slenderness (fragility?) with beauty. Are thinner women in demand partly because they are seen as weaker or easier to dominate? Conversely,is it commoner for FA's to value strength and independence in women than for non-FA's? Or is it too much of an individual matter to tell? What do you think?



Hi,
There are a number of feminist writers that have similiar thoughts and discussions regarding this subject.


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## Ruffie (Nov 28, 2008)

t3h_n00b said:


> looks like a jacked bobby hill.



LOL I Love that comment!


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## Dr. Feelgood (Nov 28, 2008)

olwen said:


> Dr. Feelgood, the heart of the matter isn't about female beauty, it's about female power, rather, sexual power and who controls it.
> 
> I agree. But I suspect it's about more than sexual power: I think it's about _any_ kind of power.
> 
> ...



So, isn't this of an example of someone playing the 'sexually attractive' card when you begin to be perceived as a competitor? Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my original post, but this is just the kind of thing I was thinking about (shennanigans is a good word ).


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## Fat Brian (Nov 28, 2008)

There are some men who are afraid of/ intimidated by the female body and they seek to control it by imposing these "societal standards". They seem especially concerned with the changes that accompany child birth ( her nipples are too big now, I don't like stretch marks, her mommy parts feel or look different now ). There are whole branches of medicine devoted to putting women back to the way they were before having kids.

I worked with a guy who got his wife breast implants after their daughter was born and would have gotten her labiaplasty as well but she had a C-section. This pair was the typical Ken and Barbie, high school football star marries the head cheerleader. He hated her after-baby body and paid ridiculous sums of money to "fix" it, and she went along with him because she didn't know any better or have the self-esteem to stand up for herself. 

It is more than just about looks, there is a very base thing in the ultra-masculine ego that gets harmed when a woman is different than "normal".


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## prickly (Nov 28, 2008)

Susannah said:


> I think that I for one get sick of our bodies as women being constantly scrutinized, analyzed, objectified, discussed, obsessed over.
> 
> So yay let's discuss what we think is the perfect body shape again. Don't let women just be, we need to be put through this all over again.



........really.


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## prickly (Nov 28, 2008)

....FOR FUCK'S SAKE, THERE IS NO APOSTROPHE IN BBWs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## AnnMarie (Nov 28, 2008)

I have nothing to add here as I believe people like what they like and are only really drawn in "societal" ways if they truly have no preference due to confusion. Otherwise they like what they like, even if they choose not to pursue it. 

However, regarding those muscle guys (not my thing, AT ALL)... but why do they all end up looking so similar in the face?? It's freaky and weird. (And yes, I realize there's a guy who repeats, I'm not talking about him.)


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 28, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> However, regarding those muscle guys (not my thing, AT ALL)... but why do they all end up looking so similar in the face?? It's freaky and weird. (And yes, I realize there's a guy who repeats, I'm not talking about him.)



lol yeah, they also tend to push an "all-american california guy" image as well. its not quite so bad these days, but back in the 70's through the 90's, it was a more palpable thing.


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## prickly (Nov 28, 2008)

......but those guys and girls are just revolting to look at.

there ya go! preferences!


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## B68 (Nov 28, 2008)

I posted some of this earlier and in another way, but i think that fear indeed has something to do with it.

Both men and women see a BBW as a very (sexually) present person. A treath to less curvaceous women and a dominant type to mentally smaller men. 

Of course this is generalizing. But it happens a lot though. 

What fashion does is another thing. There's no other motive than money and there's the vision of indeed gay designers. And no, this isn't bashing, it's just a fact. I know FA designers, but they design cars.


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## olwen (Nov 28, 2008)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I agree. But I suspect it's about more than sexual power: I think it's about any kind of power.
> 
> So if women start to take power in other arenas, isn't there likely to be a backlash putting even greater emphasis on women's appearance?
> 
> So, isn't this of an example of someone playing the 'sexually attractive' card when you begin to be perceived as a competitor? Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my original post, but this is just the kind of thing I was thinking about (shennanigans is a good word ).



Sexual power is the most essential in my opinion. It's so basic and so potent. Everybody feels it. Sexual power begets other kinds of power. 

Women have started to take power in other arenas and you are right even more emphasis is put on a woman's appearance. For example, during the presidential campaign, Hillary Clinton took a lot of heat for her appearance. She was perceived as mannish in her suits, not feminine enough, and not taken seriously. But Sarah Palin was considered hot, and not taken seriously. The only reason I think Clinton took more heat is because people did see her as a serious contender, able to surpass their expectations. In other words she was seen as a threat, while Sarah Palin was not. Furthermore, Clinton displayed a bit of human emotion by crying and all hell broke loose. She was perceived as a weak little woman (and gee aren't all women supposed to be weak? ) incapable of leading a country. Had a man done it, he'd have been seen as a sensitive and caring man, quite capable of leading the country well. 

So yes, when a woman is seen as a viable competitor, she is seen as a threat to all men and her appearance, her femininity, rather, her sexual power is immediately attacked, rather than her character, because that is how women are judged in our society. It has nothing to do with anything other than - sexual power.


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## Fascinita (Nov 28, 2008)

B68 said:


> What fashion does is another thing. There's no other motive than money and there's the vision of indeed gay designers. And no, this isn't bashing, it's just a fact. I know FA designers, but they design cars.



I disagree. I don't think anyone's gayness has anything to do with this, anymore than Pablo Picasso's machismo is responsible for it.

In my opinion, it comes down to power. Sexism is a power game. Most "isms" are power games.

Designing dresses that don't fit fat women is no more deplorable than designing cars or airline seats that don't fit fat people.

Please let's get away from the idea that any one group (blame it on the gays!) is responsible for the state of things. It's all of us. Knowing how the power game works is a good first step, but shifting blame and responsibility will put us right back at square one.


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## B68 (Nov 28, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> I disagree. I don't think anyone's gayness has anything to do with this, anymore than Pablo Picasso's machismo is responsible for it.
> 
> In my opinion, it comes down to power. Sexism is a power game. Most "isms" are power games.
> 
> ...



Fashion is one of the problems where facing on the surface today. Fashion couldn't care less. They've a different interest. Commercially and sexually. That's all i meant to say. 

But, the main thing i highlighted in my post was fear. The fear for feminism, the fear for a strong and sexually feminine presence.


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## tonynyc (Nov 28, 2008)

t3h_n00b said:


> i bring all that up because it is important to note that this industry which is on the front lines of the battle to spread anti-fat propaganda and paranoia are not marketing health but watered down supplements (sometimes snake oil) or ineffective exercise gear. The ideal isn't skinny but a user/consumer. They play on the insecurities that people already have to make them spend money. They do not have an earnest commitment to making people thin (their model of health).
> 
> As a fitness buff, i find it all fascinating. it really does go back to the concept of sexual power though as olwen pointed out. if you look at fitness magazines marketed to young men, its easy to see that sexual attractiveness is always a purchase away, be it a magazine, a can of whey protein, a cycle of steroids, etc. These are some magazine covers i've seen over the years. i think they show the way that the fitness industry plays one gender against another out of convenience.
> 
> ...



*
The Fitness Industry has always been one to market exercise supplements and equipment with dubious claims. Look as isometrics and power racks 
(they were touted as the next best strength routine) the sad part is that most of the users were taking roids at the time and such claims could not be proven.

The Fitness industry to some extent has been filled with examples of folks that contradict their message. I recently watched "Bigger,Faster,Stronger" and the eye-opener for some was that the so-called icons 'Arnold' - 'Hulk Hogan' an 'Stallone' were building their bodies through chemical means & not following a lifestyle of "saying your prayers and eating your vitamins". To paraphrase the words of Greg Valentino in the movie " They are waving at you with one hand and giving you the finger with the other"....

In addition, the use of female models with bodybuilders is a means to contradict the rumors (fair or not) of homosexuality that is often stamped on the sport. Plus, the one group that is getting the real shaft in terms of bodybuilding are the women competitors. The next time it airs on cable check out 'Supersize She' 

Brief Clip on Youtube "Supersize She" 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLwStRk7T4g 
* 







AnnMarie said:


> I have nothing to add here as I believe people like what they like and are only really drawn in "societal" ways if they truly have no preference due to confusion. Otherwise they like what they like, even if they choose not to pursue it.
> 
> However, regarding those muscle guys (not my thing, AT ALL)... but why do they all end up looking so similar in the face?? It's freaky and weird. (And yes, I realize there's a guy who repeats, I'm not talking about him.)



*If you mean that drawn out look - Diuretics or other supplements to try to get as vascular as possible*




t3h_n00b said:


> lol yeah, they also tend to push an "all-american california guy" image as well. its not quite so bad these days, but back in the 70's through the 90's, it was a more palpable thing.



*Don't know if it was more palpable. I mean the last bodybuilder with a classic look was Frank Zane. The next would have been Bob Paris;but, since he came 'out' he was pretty much snubbed by the sport.The trend has been for the more 'freaky' physiques to win... I guess the closest now would be the 2008 Mr. Olympia Dexter Jackson *


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 28, 2008)

tonynyc said:


> *Don't know if it was more palpable. I mean the last bodybuilder with a classic look was Frank Zane. The next would have been Bob Paris;but, since he came 'out' he was pretty much snubbed by the sport.The trend has been for the more 'freaky' physiques to win... I guess the closest now would be the 2008 Mr. Olympia Dexter Jackson *



yeah, i focused in on muscle and fitness et al because they have a slightly more mainstream appeal and don't really feature the freaks on the covers like that. Flex and Muscular Development are a whole other fish.

As for the classic look thing, a lot of people seem to think Toney Freeman has it. i don't necesarily agree. Those days are long gone because amateur competitors are looking like that on weak juice. all those compounds have gotten stronger. its sad and in a way funny. young men are led to believe that looking like Zane and Paris is what most women consider attractive and its not. most women like men w/ average body types. i'm not particularly big but a good number of girls find me too muscley.


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## Fascinita (Nov 28, 2008)

So what do you make of the trend for muscular women out in the regular world, noob? You know... abs of steel, buns of iron... that kind of thing?


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 29, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> So what do you make of the trend for muscular women out in the regular world, noob? You know... abs of steel, buns of iron... that kind of thing?



well, as a lifter, i respect in the fullest sense the amount of work that they have to put in to look like that, even the ones that juice. that's a HUGE sacrifice for them (they androgenic effects are tough to cope with). That said, i don't find them attractive in the sexual sense. i guess i see them as sexually neutral coworkers more so than sexually attractive potential mates.


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## katorade (Nov 29, 2008)

B68 said:


> What fashion does is another thing. There's no other motive than money and there's the vision of indeed gay designers. And no, this isn't bashing, it's just a fact. I know FA designers, but they design cars.



Uh, there are many, MANY designers that are either straight men or straight women, and many of them design for people with real bodies. There are also FAT designers. High fashion is not the norm, it's just the most publicized. Now if you were to say there weren't enough plus sized designers, I'd agree, but the trend is slowly increasing. Fashion has absolute crap to do with gay designers wanting everyone to look like thin little boys.


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## Lovelyone (Nov 29, 2008)

t3h_n00b said:


> looks like a jacked bobby hill.



Interesting comment considering that this is a forums designed for acceptance. 

Count me as one of the people who get tired of all the bickering about which body shape/size is perfect. I've noticed a trend in this community...and its one of non-acceptance of anyone who isn't fat. I just feel that this is wrong. If we, as larger than average people (and the people who love them)want to be accepted by society, then we have to do some accepting, too. 
There is never going to be a perfect medium. There will always be haters, but we don't have to take part in it. I say live and let live.


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## olwen (Nov 29, 2008)

t3h_n00b said:


> well, as a lifter, i respect in the fullest sense the amount of work that they have to put in to look like that, even the ones that juice. that's a HUGE sacrifice for them (they androgenic effects are tough to cope with). That said, i don't find them attractive in the sexual sense. i guess i see them as sexually neutral coworkers more so than sexually attractive potential mates.



See, this is really fucked up when a woman has to choose between beauty or physical strength. Why should anything have to be sacrificed? Not only does fat androgynize, but muscle too. There are too many "threats" to a woman's sense of self. It's not enough that we work hard, but we *have* to look good doing it too. Eh, I'm starting to ramble. It's too early in the morning for me.


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## Suze (Nov 29, 2008)

elle camino said:


>


that's a little bit scary.

each to their own, though...


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## Cors (Nov 29, 2008)

Lovelyone said:


> Interesting comment considering that this is a forums designed for acceptance.
> 
> Count me as one of the people who get tired of all the bickering about which body shape/size is perfect. I've noticed a trend in this community...and its one of non-acceptance of anyone who isn't fat. I just feel that this is wrong. If we, as larger than average people (and the people who love them)want to be accepted by society, then we have to do some accepting, too.
> There is never going to be a perfect medium. There will always be haters, but we don't have to take part in it. I say live and let live.



Indeed, I sometimes wonder if this place for fat acceptance, or general size acceptance. Most people here are awesome though.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Nov 29, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> So what do you make of the trend for muscular women out in the regular world, noob? You know... abs of steel, buns of iron... that kind of thing?




Is that why they oil themselves? So they won't rust?


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 29, 2008)

olwen said:


> See, this is really fucked up when a woman has to choose between beauty or physical strength. Why should anything have to be sacrificed? Not only does fat androgynize, but muscle too. There are too many "threats" to a woman's sense of self. It's not enough that we work hard, but we *have* to look good doing it too. Eh, I'm starting to ramble. It's too early in the morning for me.



Well that's not really it at all for me. i don't find them attractive for much the same reason i don't find skinnier women attractive. As an FA, i'm attracted to bbws mostly. As a rule of thumb, a skinnier (or muscular) body type isn't going to attract me. i have nothing against women lifting and i don't think its a choice between beauty and strength. i'd find a bbw that lifts very attractive. some conventional models exercise alot too, but i also don't really find them attractive either. i mentioned the androgeny in the reference to the consumption of AAS (anabolic/androgenic steroids), not lifting or muscle itself. Androgenic steroids actually do have "masculinizing effects" (deepening of the voice, growth of facial hair, growth of the clitoris, shrinkage of breast tissue, etc). They can also take a huge toll on their reproductive health which is why i respect the sacrifice they make in pursuing their goals. it doesn't seem like the physical cost is as high for men. the side effects tend to be a bit more reversible. that doesn't have to do with the presence or development of muscle tissue but on the effects of drugs. its not an issue for natural female lifters. they just tend to be too skinny for my tastes (sexually), thus i tend to see them as sexually neutral coworkers...they're not bbws. i'm not really sure where this 0 sum choice thing between beauty and strength came from.


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 29, 2008)

Lovelyone said:


> Interesting comment considering that this is a forums designed for acceptance.
> 
> Count me as one of the people who get tired of all the bickering about which body shape/size is perfect. I've noticed a trend in this community...and its one of non-acceptance of anyone who isn't fat. I just feel that this is wrong. If we, as larger than average people (and the people who love them)want to be accepted by society, then we have to do some accepting, too.
> There is never going to be a perfect medium. There will always be haters, but we don't have to take part in it. I say live and let live.



i'm saying that in the face, he looks like bobby hill from king of the hill. i too have a muscular body type. i just think this one guy looks funny...in the face.


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## olwen (Nov 29, 2008)

t3h_n00b said:


> Well that's not really it at all for me. i don't find them attractive for much the same reason i don't find skinnier women attractive. As an FA, i'm attracted to bbws mostly. As a rule of thumb, a skinnier (or muscular) body type isn't going to attract me. i have nothing against women lifting and i don't think its a choice between beauty and strength. i'd find a bbw that lifts very attractive. some conventional models exercise alot too, but i also don't really find them attractive either. i mentioned the androgeny in the reference to the consumption of AAS (anabolic/androgenic steroids), not lifting or muscle itself. Androgenic steroids actually do have "masculinizing effects" (deepening of the voice, growth of facial hair, growth of the clitoris, shrinkage of breast tissue, etc). They can also take a huge toll on their reproductive health which is why i respect the sacrifice they make in pursuing their goals. it doesn't seem like the physical cost is as high for men. the side effects tend to be a bit more reversible. that doesn't have to do with the presence or development of muscle tissue but on the effects of drugs. its not an issue for natural female lifters. they just tend to be too skinny for my tastes (sexually), thus i tend to see them as sexually neutral coworkers...they're not bbws. i'm not really sure where this 0 sum choice thing between beauty and strength came from.



Where did it come from? Well, it's just from my own experience weight lifting. I would spend 2.5 hours at the gym five days a week lifting. It really freaked out my friends. I did feel like I couldn't be both strong and beautiful in their eyes, which pissed me off. Then in talking to women at the gym, a lot of them would say they wanted to lift, but wouldn't dare cause they didn't want to look masculine. I had a lot of conversations with women about how to tone areas like glutes and tummies, rather than build actual muscle. Those women were in fact choosing beauty over strength. I'd think well, if it has to come down to that, I'd rather have strength. 

So see, even without the steroids, the fear of loosing sexual power exists for women if they have to choose between being feminine and physically weak or a bit masculine and physically strong. Ultimately, a woman's power lies not in her intellect or physical strength, but in her ability to turn heads. That's why we spend so much time agonizing over our appearance. It's all about who's got the sexual power.


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 29, 2008)

olwen said:


> Where did it come from? Well, it's just from my own experience weight lifting. I would spend 2.5 hours at the gym five days a week lifting. It really freaked out my friends. I did feel like I couldn't be both strong and beautiful in their eyes, which pissed me off. Then in talking to women at the gym, a lot of them would say they wanted to lift, but wouldn't dare cause they didn't want to look masculine. I had a lot of conversations with women about how to tone areas like glutes and tummies, rather than build actual muscle. Those women were in fact choosing beauty over strength. I'd think well, if it has to come down to that, I'd rather have strength.



i'm sorry about your experience, but i definitely don't agree with those people. it's unfortunate that so many women are fed misinformation about lifting weights. it really is good exercise and quite a healthy practice. i had to overcome a lot of those views in my mother so that i could motivate her to get into the gym to do effective things for her health about 4 years ago. As a former ballerina, she was completely averse to weights but now that i got her past that ignorance and got her to train with me, her health has improved greatly and she's just as feminine as ever. trust me, i wouldn't want my mother to do anything i thought would make her ugly or would take her power away. if anything, hitting those weights hard has given her more power, strength, and beauty.

i believe the fitness industry spreads this hysterical fear of women and weights so that it can sell women the next latest greatest diet book/pill/video series/etc. Weights and cardio are actually effective (and are harder for the industry to make money off of). Most of these fitness crazes are marketed towards women. if you look at the women's fitness magazines, they are chock full of misinformation and bad advice (men's magazines are only a little bit better). i see it all as female exploitation for profit in the end.

i wonder though, what is your normative view for a person like me to have on muscular women? in my conversations with them, they come to the gym to do serious business and are not interested in men hitting on them or oogling them. They just want to be seen as ordinary gym goers (sexually neutral coworkers). As an FA, they're not really my type so i'm not exactly sure how i'm supposed to see them in a sexual sense.



> So see, even without the steroids, the fear of loosing sexual power exists for women if they have to choose between being feminine and physically weak or a bit masculine and physically strong. Ultimately, a woman's power lies not in her intellect or physical strength, but in her ability to turn heads. That's why we spend so much time agonizing over our appearance. It's all about who's got the sexual power.



i think you are right about this. The concept of the beautiful body is loaded with moralistic meanings. i think the body ideals that we have are derived from our general cultural admiration of ancient Greece. (This is directly observed in the ideals set for for men. The sport of bodybuilding as we know it began as a way to pursue the Greek ideal). Having "the body of a god" is very much a remnant of that and i think the sexual power that comes along with that is also linked to a desire in many people to be worshiped and adored like a god (or a celebrity) as an individual, not just a physique.


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## olwen (Nov 29, 2008)

t3h_n00b said:


> i'm sorry about your experience, but i definitely don't agree with those people. it's unfortunate that so many women are fed misinformation about lifting weights. it really is good exercise and quite a healthy practice. i had to overcome a lot of those views in my mother so that i could motivate her to get into the gym to do effective things for her health about 4 years ago. As a former ballerina, she was completely averse to weights but now that i got her past that ignorance and got her to train with me, her health has improved greatly and she's just as feminine as ever. trust me, i wouldn't want my mother to do anything i thought would make her ugly or would take her power away. if anything, hitting those weights hard has given her more power, strength, and beauty.
> 
> i believe the fitness industry spreads this hysterical fear of women and weights so that it can sell women the next latest greatest diet book/pill/video series/etc. Weights and cardio are actually effective (and are harder for the industry to make money off of). Most of these fitness crazes are marketed towards women. if you look at the women's fitness magazines, they are chock full of misinformation and bad advice (men's magazines are only a little bit better). i see it all as female exploitation for profit in the end.
> 
> ...



You're absolutely right about the fitness industry and the magazines. I had started to read them because I got to a point where I wanted to change up my form and I was hoping for tips, but the women's fitness magazines were useless to me. Not enough articles about form. Just the same stuff about toning abs and butts and whatnot. The men's magazines were better for that stuff, but still inadequate. I ended up chucking them alltogether and I started looking for anatomy and strength training books, which were much better. I also agree, cardio and strength training together are really effective. It's all people really need to do for health and weight loss if they want to do that, but we're told the best thing is whatever latest fad is that will make money for the diet industry. Men are sold fitness equipment and supplements/vitamins, and women are sold diets. Our bodies *are* tied up in morals too. Fat people are lazy, slothful, stupid, evil for not having "perfect" bodies. Don't even get me started about how older women are supposed to be seen. This cougar business seems to be a step in the right direction of sexual politics, but I'm still not so sure...

Men never hit on me at the gym, I'm guessing cause of my size. I didn't mind either. I was there to do my workout and nothing more. I didn't want to be bothered. If I needed help with something tho, I asked and for the most part the men in the weight room were helpful. There was the occasional asshole who wanted to start trouble just because I was a woman, but the other men there always had my back. I guess they got used to seeing me and saw me as one of their own. I saw myself as one of them too. Just people working out. 

As for the sexual sense, see muscular women however you want I guess. If they don't turn you on they don't turn you on. I'm not sure why they would have to turn you on, but the fact that you think about it is telling. I never ever thought about whether or not men would see me as sexual while working out. As a fat woman most people don't see me as sexual anyway so it's something I've learned to live with. It's normal for me. I focused on my form and my progress and nothing more.

The thing is tho, that women are not *supposed* to take up space. A fat woman, a muscular woman, a tall woman all take up more space than what is "allowed." We're supposed to comport ourselves in ways that take up as little space as possible. Be demure, cross our legs, speak softly, shrink our bodies - except of course the parts men like the most, don't wear heels if you're over a certain height, wear them if you're under a certain height, etc. So I can see how men especially would see a bigger/taller/muscular woman as a threat to their own power, since for most men, size often equals power. No matter what it is, the bigger the better: penises, guns, territory, muscles, intellect, etc. 

What should be normal? Whatever we are already should be seen as normal. Not too much of or not enough of something, but just right.


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## Fascinita (Nov 29, 2008)

Lovelyone said:


> Interesting comment considering that this is a forums designed for acceptance.
> 
> Count me as one of the people who get tired of all the bickering about which body shape/size is perfect. I've noticed a trend in this community...and its one of non-acceptance of anyone who isn't fat. I just feel that this is wrong. If we, as larger than average people (and the people who love them)want to be accepted by society, then we have to do some accepting, too.
> There is never going to be a perfect medium. There will always be haters, but we don't have to take part in it. I say live and let live.



I'm not sure noob was making an anti-acceptance comment, Lovely. At least I don't see it that way. Isn't Bobby Hill a cute cartoon character? I always liked his moxy a lot on KOTH. The "jacked up" thing just means on steroids, right? I guess I took noob's comment to mean, "Bobby Hill on steroids." But since I happen to see the Bobby Hill character as _positive_, I don't see noob's comment as anything but broad comedy. 

The weightlifter guy does have a cartoonish air about him in that photo. Photos do that--they reduce people to images, sometimes unflattering. But I _know_ that noob wasn't saying that weightlifters in general are "freaks," or anything even remotely along those lines. 

Am I missing something?


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## kioewen (Nov 29, 2008)

To try to ignore the fact that gay males are much responsible for this is wilful blindness. No one attacks and demeans full-figured women more vehemently than gay men. It is not a coincidence that modelling and fashion, where the power of gay men is prevalent, and to an increasing degree Hollywood, where it is in the ascendancy, are the industries that are most antithetical to full-figured beauty.


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## AnnMarie (Nov 29, 2008)

kioewen said:


> To try to ignore the fact that gay males are much responsible for this is wilful blindness. No one attacks and demeans full-figured women more vehemently than gay men. It is not a coincidence that modelling and fashion, where the power of gay men is prevalent, and to an increasing degree Hollywood, where it is in the ascendancy, are the industries that are most antithetical to full-figured beauty.



I call BS (from my own life/experience).

Have you ever met a so-called "fag-hag"? Fat girls and gay men go together like cake and frosting. 

Truth.


More truth, more attacking and demeaning of me and my fat friends has come at the hands of thin straight women. They're afraid of what they fear/can't understand. And even so, I have no issue at all with straight women, just because I've taken more shots from that "type" doesn't mean there's a problem with the group. Same goes for your assessment of gay men. If you believe that's true, it's still not an issue for that "type" of person, just the assholes who act that way. 

I've never, ever been attacked or demeaned by a gay man. Ever.


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## Santaclear (Nov 29, 2008)

kioewen said:


> To try to ignore the fact that gay males are much responsible for this is wilful blindness. No one attacks and demeans full-figured women more vehemently than gay men. It is not a coincidence that modelling and fashion, where the power of gay men is prevalent, and to an increasing degree Hollywood, where it is in the ascendancy, are the industries that are most antithetical to full-figured beauty.



I don't think that's true at all. I have never seen gay men to be more fat-hating than any other segment of the populace, and probably a lot less so (see AnnMarie's reply to you.)


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## Cors (Nov 29, 2008)

kioewen said:


> To try to ignore the fact that gay males are much responsible for this is wilful blindness. No one attacks and demeans full-figured women more vehemently than gay men. It is not a coincidence that modelling and fashion, where the power of gay men is prevalent, and to an increasing degree Hollywood, where it is in the ascendancy, are the industries that are most antithetical to full-figured beauty.



I grew up around gay men and I find this is absolutely untrue. I know sooooo many BBW or even SSBBW fag hags who are well-loved by their gay boys. The gay males I know certainly appreciate the luscious female form even if they do not appreciate what we have down there. Even the gym rats who are obsessed with being tanned and toned gush about receiving wonderful squishy hugs from their girl and I personally don't think that is strange - many straight male FAs are thin or muscular and intend to stay that way. 

I find that straight men in general tend to be way more critical of female bodies. I have felt objectified by them for years and I resent it. As for Hollywood, just think of the casting couch!


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## B68 (Nov 29, 2008)

Santaclear said:


> I don't think that's true at all. I have never seen gay men to be more fat-hating than any other segment of the populace, and probably a lot less so (see AnnMarie's reply to you.)



I don't want to generalize gay men, because i know too few of them personally. But we'd a nice example on the Dutch TV last week. A fat woman was on Popstars (i think the same show is all over the world) and she showed up in a weird dress. Ok, her fault (or it's been a set up by the producers and she got paid nicely), but one of the gay commentators got so vicious with her, it was compeltely ridiculous and over the top. He even had to appologize on TV. 

Again, i won't be surprised if this was a setup, but it happens in the real world. The one good gay friend i knew years ago told me many gay men are like that. They don't mean to be vicious by definition, but they're wired this way. They look at appearence and clothes and fashion in a technical way. 

And some of them say what they think (while they're probably right) too loud. They're not hating the people in the clothes, but they could be more carefull in expressing themselves. (A bit like some male FA's  )

I think that's all that i and the others had to say about gay men in this context.


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## LisaInNC (Nov 29, 2008)

prickly said:


> ....FOR FUCK'S SAKE, THERE IS NO APOSTROPHE IN BBWs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



technically there should be no S either....BBW is already in plural form as it is because it is refering to a group. So big beautiful women as opposed to big beautiful woman. I think.


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## Lovelyone (Nov 29, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> I'm not sure noob was making an anti-acceptance comment, Lovely. At least I don't see it that way. Isn't Bobby Hill a cute cartoon character? I always liked his moxy a lot on KOTH. The "jacked up" thing just means on steroids, right? I guess I took noob's comment to mean, "Bobby Hill on steroids." But since I happen to see the Bobby Hill character as _positive_, I don't see noob's comment as anything but broad comedy.
> 
> The weightlifter guy does have a cartoonish air about him in that photo. Photos do that--they reduce people to images, sometimes unflattering. But I _know_ that noob wasn't saying that weightlifters in general are "freaks," or anything even remotely along those lines.
> 
> Am I missing something?



See, that's the lovely thing about this country...you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Just cos you don't see it, doesn't mean that others don't. Cartoonish or not, I am sure that guy didn't expect his pics to be poked fun of, just as we in the fat community do not wish that upon ourselves.


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## B68 (Nov 29, 2008)

LisaInNC said:


> technically there should be no S either....BBW is already in plural form as it is because it is refering to a group. So big beautiful women as opposed to big beautiful woman. I think.



I'm a bloody foreigner, but i think so too.


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## Fascinita (Nov 29, 2008)

Lovelyone said:


> See, that's the lovely thing about this country...you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Just cos you don't see it, doesn't mean that others don't. Cartoonish or not, I am sure that guy didn't expect his pics to be poked fun of, just as we in the fat community do not wish that upon ourselves.



I think his feeling are probably hurt. You're right. :bow:


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## Suze (Nov 29, 2008)

B68 said:


> I'm a bloody foreigner, but i think so too.


I wish you had more grammar mistakes. You make me (and other 'Dims-foreigners') look like crap. 

ps- My gay friends have always been the most supportive when it comes to my size.
pps- If that body builder dude didn't use so much tanning lotion, he would probably be a little bit...hot.


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## B68 (Nov 29, 2008)

susieQ said:


> I wish you had more grammar mistakes. You make me (and other 'Dims-foreigners') look like crap.
> 
> ps- My gay friends have always been the most supportive when it comes to my size.
> pps- If that body builder dude didn't use so much tanning lotion, he would probably be a little bit...hot.



Zorry, bud i thinc ive maid enouf grammaratical miss-takes... It has to end somewhere...

Besides that, i'm scared. Some Dims connected body-tanner might explode right in front of my house Just because i zpelld something wrong...


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## Aivo (Nov 29, 2008)

LisaInNC said:


> technically there should be no S either....BBW is already in plural form as it is because it is refering to a group. So big beautiful women as opposed to big beautiful woman. I think.



This depends on whether you think of BBW as a phrase or a word (whether you think "Big Beautiful Women" or "BeeBeeDoubleYoo") when you see that acronym. Oftentimes an acronym that was originally thought of as phrase, each letter representing a word, is now thought of as a single word. That doesn't mean that it really is a word that you'll find in a dictionary (although some you will), but it means that the mind sees it as one word.

You would not say "Big Beautiful Womens", but you would say "BeeBeeDoubleYous". BBW is (at least mentally) a word.


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## fiore (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm prepared for the beating with this one, but I remember this from college anthropology classes so I'll play a little devil's advocate...

You also need to remember the morals on which our country was founded. Hard work, deprivation, sacrifice, suffering... puritanical, protestant work ethic. Hedonistic pleasures like eating purely for enjoyment? No! We still equate sacrifice and self abuse like a diet and exercise regimen with being a better person. Those ascetic principles of early protestantism still resonate throughout the English speaking world. So the next time someone tells you that it's wrong to indulge and that you'd be better off cutting back, think about the Pilgrims. haha.

Also, there's another side to the fashion industry, besides all of the terrible things that everyone always talks about. It's also a home to some of the wackiest, weirdest, most creative people in the world - people who otherwise would NEVER be allowed to be shown in a fashion magazine. Look at Betsey Johnson for example, or Patricia Field, Grace Jones, Vivienne Westwood, and all the other anonymous wackos hanging around your local thrift store lunging after a pair of sparkly gold platforms from 1975. The people we all hate are the _industry_ people of the fashion industry, not the _fashion_ people, in my opinion.

I'd also like to point out that fat chicks and gay guys are inextricably bonded as a result of being theatre queen outcasts together in high school.


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## Lovelyone (Nov 30, 2008)

Aivo said:


> This depends on whether you think of BBW as a phrase or a word (whether you think "Big Beautiful Women" or "BeeBeeDoubleYoo") when you see that acronym. Oftentimes an acronym that was originally thought of as phrase, each letter representing a word, is now thought of as a single word. That doesn't mean that it really is a word that you'll find in a dictionary (although some you will), but it means that the mind sees it as one word.
> 
> You would not say "Big Beautiful Womens", but you would say "BeeBeeDoubleYous". BBW is (at least mentally) a word.



I think it also depends on how you use it in a sentence. If I say "I consider myself a bbw", I am referring to the singular form of the word. The context just wouldn't be right if I said "I consider myself a big beautiful women."


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## Chimpi (Nov 30, 2008)

Which is exactly why "BBW" can mean 'Big, Beautiful Women' or 'Big, Beautiful Woman.' I have always thought it was both. Every time I read the word, I never read it as a singular word - BeeBeeDoubleYou - I sound out the definition of the acronym in my head. Same with "FA - fat admirer."


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## katorade (Nov 30, 2008)

kioewen said:


> To try to ignore the fact that gay males are much responsible for this is wilful blindness. No one attacks and demeans full-figured women more vehemently than gay men. It is not a coincidence that modelling and fashion, where the power of gay men is prevalent, and to an increasing degree Hollywood, where it is in the ascendancy, are the industries that are most antithetical to full-figured beauty.




Um, some of the most positive reinforcement I've had for my self-image was from gay men. Hell, I was the belle of the gay bar. A huge percentage of my friends in my early 20s were gay and never once had a detrimental thing to say about my body. Who are these gay men you're talking about?


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## Keb (Dec 1, 2008)

katorade said:


> Um, some of the most positive reinforcement I've had for my self-image was from gay men. Hell, I was the belle of the gay bar. A huge percentage of my friends in my early 20s were gay and never once had a detrimental thing to say about my body. Who are these gay men you're talking about?



I think the idea that he's refrencing is that because gay men are attracted to male bodies, they create fashions for women that make them look masculine as well, and prefer to use models with fewer curves--ie, more masculine models.

I'm not sure I buy it, but it's an idea I've heard plenty.


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## Santaclear (Dec 1, 2008)

nm, can't all be gems


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## Suze (Dec 1, 2008)

B68 said:


> Zorry, bud i thinc ive maid enouf grammaratical miss-takes... It has to end somewhere...
> 
> Besides that, i'm scared. Some Dims connected body-tanner might explode right in front of my house Just because i zpelld something wrong...


wow, you really suck at bad spelling! I can totally see that you're faking it 

for me, it comes natural...body tanner or not.


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## kropotkin_fan (Dec 5, 2008)

katorade said:


> Um, some of the most positive reinforcement I've had for my self-image was from gay men. Hell, I was the belle of the gay bar. A huge percentage of my friends in my early 20s were gay and never once had a detrimental thing to say about my body. Who are these gay men you're talking about?



Indeed, I think it would be a huge mistake to link homophobia and size acceptance. No movement for equality can expect to work by shoring up prejudice against other groups.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Dec 5, 2008)

There is a really good book out there that discusses the fitness industry, public image etc, called the Adonis Complex. Very good reading.


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## Pitch (May 14, 2011)

Kidding, right? Every gay man I know loves me to DEATH. (AndIlovethemback) but they never ever said _anything_ bad about my weight when most straight or bisexual men don't hesitate to. Hah, in fact most of the guys who dance with me at any sort of club are gay guys. So fun!


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## JMNYC (May 14, 2011)

Re: Gay men--

My wife's friends are exclusively gay men (NYC gay men, to boot,) and not one has ever made so much as a single peep about her weight in the 15 years I've known her, even when she lost 50 lbs about 3 years ago and all the straight women she knew fell all over themselves to gush, quizz, compliment, and fawn, to her annoyance. "HOW DID YOU LOSE THE WEIGHT??? WHAT DIET DID YOU FOLLOW??"

I asked her about this once---"Why do you think you gravitate towards gay men, and they to you?" The answers, and I paraphrase:

*They know how to be naturally fabulous
*They know what it's like to be judged, stereotyped and misunderstood by the straight male community
*They don't think The Dave Matthews Band are fucking awesome

more.


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## olwen (May 14, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Kidding, right? Every gay man I know loves me to DEATH. (AndIlovethemback) but they never ever said _anything_ bad about my weight when most straight or bisexual men don't hesitate to. Hah, in fact most of the guys who dance with me at any sort of club are gay guys. So fun!





JMNYC said:


> Re: Gay men--
> 
> My wife's friends are exclusively gay men (NYC gay men, to boot,) and not one has ever made so much as a single peep about her weight in the 15 years I've known her, even when she lost 50 lbs about 3 years ago and all the straight women she knew fell all over themselves to gush, quizz, compliment, and fawn, to her annoyance. "HOW DID YOU LOSE THE WEIGHT??? WHAT DIET DID YOU FOLLOW??"
> 
> ...



I've had several gay male friends over the years and all but one didn't care about my weight. I didn't stay friends with that one guy for long. He was really thin but was obsessed with loosing weight - well, he was obsessed with everyone's weight really. Talked incessantly about food and eating but refused to learn to cook because he would eat more if he did and he made lots of comments about my weight and eating habits that I just couldn't brook, like wondering aloud why I'm so fat when I didn't eat as much as he thought a fat person should . 

I'm inclined to think there are a lot of gay guys like him, which makes the judgement even more offensive cause why be so judgmental about bodies you aren't even attracted to? Isn't it enough that women judge other women...?


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