# Losing weight...



## Bird of Beauty (Mar 4, 2006)

Hello All,

I have made the decision to lose weight. Before I get nasty responses let me tell you my situation. I am a 21 year old female who wears a size 32 pants on a 5' 8'' frame. I don't have any weight/health complications...YET..So I decided to lose the weight before something drastic happens with my health.

* Okay *
I am writing this post to ask people (who have started to lose weight) what are some of the foods they eat for breakfast and for snacks. I know this sounds like a dumb question but I don't know which breakfast foods are healthy (if any at all). And all of the stuff I eat as snacks I KNOW aren't healthy...

If anyone can post with their success (and failures) that would be great...

Thanks!


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## Chimpi (Mar 4, 2006)

I recommend getting a book called "Fit For Life". I read it years ago. It's a very good book. Gives you a rundown of what to look for.

The best way to do it is eating good (lots of vegeetables and fruits... grilled chicken and such), and always exercise.


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## Sandie S-R (Mar 4, 2006)

Hi Bird of Beauty...

Dimensions is a fat acceptance site (a place where we celebrate BBWs), therefore we do not advocate nor promote dieting for weight loss. I would suggest if you are looking for weight loss support, you may want to find it at a site that is specifically for dieting and weight loss. You are wlcome to post here about any other aspect of being a BBW...just not about dieting and weight loss tips.


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## NFA (Mar 4, 2006)

So you're healthy? Yeah, I can totally see why a change is needed. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

If your concern is actually with your HEALTH, then I'd suggest less focus on your size jeans and more focus on your actual health. Efforts to lose weight fail 95-99% of the time.

Eat well and moderately without stigmatizing foods as good or bad. Learn to listen to what your body needs and respond accordingly. If you aren't already, introduce moderate and enjoyable activity into your life. If its a chore or has a substantial risk of injuring you, maybe its not for you. They key is to make activity a part of your life and not a punishment for your body. Look up discussions about "Health at any size" for more information. Lifestyle matters more than numbers on a scale. And no matter how much you wish you weren't fat, there is a reason all the diet plans and books have to qualify their success stories with "Results Not Typical". No matter how many people will insist platitudes are all that's worth adding, wanting it badly enough doesn't change the situation and it doesn't make the extremely limited "successes" any more worth considering.

Of course, if your concern really is with the size of your jeans and not your health, you might as well do this anyway. Since 90% of failed diets result in more weight being regained than had been lost in the first place, its still your best bet to not be wearing size 34 or 36 jeans.


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## Mini (Mar 4, 2006)

Eat granola and tuna. Both are filling and quite good for you.

Drink lots of water. If you drink pop, stop completely. It's just empty calories.

If you eat a lot of 'em, take chips, chocolate, and any other kind of snack food out of your diet. Again, you don't need 'em, and you'd be amazed at how quickly you stop craving them. (Assuming you crave 'em in the first place, of course.)

Regardless of what you ultimately do to your diet, you absolutely MUST incorporate some form of exercise into your daily routine. I suggest walking to start for at least an hour a day. Swimming's a good one, too.

The biggest reason why "diets" fail is 'cause the person doin' it isn't prepared to go all-in and change his or her lifestyle. It truly is an all-or-nothing proposition, 'cause you're going to doom yourself to failure if you look at it for the short-term only. Anyone can drop a lot of weight quickly with a crash diet (starvation diets, liquid diets, no/ultra-low-fat diets, etc.) but those are the ones with a 95% failure rate. 

My best advice would be to not even bother buying a scale. Just go with what your body tells you; if your pants start fitting better, keep up whatever you're doing. If day-to-day life gets easier for you, you're on the right track. Don't be discouraged if it takes a few weeks before you start noticing any changes. 

Good luck. 

(For the record, I realise that this may not be a popular post, but realise I'm just trying to help.)


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## jamyjam224 (Mar 4, 2006)

I just wanted to throw a suggestion, I hope it's okay, 

If you like bananas, they are a great thing to have in the morning, they are more filling then the average fruit and also wheat toast with peanut butter, oatmeal, granola bars-the low sugar ones are good, switching to skin or soy milk is good too, good luck to you


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## EbonySSBBW (Mar 4, 2006)

Mini said:


> The biggest reason why "diets" fail is 'cause the person doin' it isn't prepared to go all-in and change his or her lifestyle. It truly is an all-or-nothing proposition, 'cause you're going to doom yourself to failure if you look at it for the short-term only. Anyone can drop a lot of weight quickly with a crash diet (starvation diets, liquid diets, no/ultra-low-fat diets, etc.) but those are the ones with a 95% failure rate.




That is actually not true. Diets fail because diets don't work. A person is set up to fail before they even begin. The word diet in itself suggests a temporary way of eating for a certain period of time. Diets are not realistic. You suggest completely giving up a lot of different foods but it is rare that a person is able to do that for the rest of his or her life. It's not like smoking or drinking alcohol. People have to eat every single day...one can not completely give up food. And a person can not make such drastic changes such as completely giving up certain foods because eventually that person will break and then binge on those foods that they worked so hard to avoid. Trust me, I have personal experience with this....most fat chicks do.

I would suggest making little changes that you can life with for the rest of your life. Instead of having chocolate every day, have it 2 days a week....don't give it up all together. On days that you plan on having a big dinner, eat a light breakfast and lunch. And yes, exercise is very important, that's true for everyone and it will definitely lead to a healthier body.


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## Mini (Mar 4, 2006)

EbonySSBBW said:


> That is actually not true. Diets fail because diets don't work. A person is set up to fail before they even begin. The word diet in itself suggests a temporary way of eating for a certain period of time. Diets are not realistic. You suggest completely giving up a lot of different foods but it is rare that a person is able to do that for the rest of his or her life. It's not like smoking or drinking alcohol. People have to eat every single day...one can not completely give up food. And a person can not make such drastic changes such as completely giving up certain foods because eventually that person will break and then binge on those foods that they worked so hard to avoid. Trust me, I have personal experience with this....most fat chicks do.



I was referring to two different things; "diets" being in the context of healthy lifestyle changes, where as the latter instance had to do with the fad shtit that doesn't work, period.

It was just laziness on my part.

As for the other stuff... I dunno, I tend to think that if someone is truly dedicated to something, he or she should just do it. Personally, the only thing I ever really crave is more granola. Guess I can't speak for everyone, though.


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## EbonySSBBW (Mar 4, 2006)

Mini said:


> As for the other stuff... I dunno, I tend to think that if someone is truly dedicated to something, he or she should just do it. Personally, the only thing I ever really crave is more granola. Guess I can't speak for everyone, though.



In most areas of life, that may true. It's not true when it comes to something so complex as issues around weight. But I think it's that way of thinking that makes so many people despise fat people. They think, "They should be able to lose weight, just quit eating and exercise...it's easy." That's simply a fallacy of logic. Those issues go a lot deeper than that and I really wish that more people understood that. I won't even get into the issues of the body and homeostasis or the theories behind fat cell growth.


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## Totmacher (Mar 5, 2006)

It's my personal belief that the whole point of a, "diet" is to consume less food than you need to stay alive so your body will cannibalize itself and you will shrink, but to consume enough food that you don't end up cannibalizing something important (like your heart muscles). Then, afterwards, you're supposed to eat just enough to keep you alive and no more. needless to say diets don't work on me terribly well. 

What's, like, typical breakfast food for you, B.o.B? I usually eat, like a bagel or a bowl of cereal on those rare occaisions I don't just skip to lunch.


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## Tracyarts (Mar 5, 2006)

My favorite breakfast nowadays is chopped up fresh fruit and yogurt or cottage cheese. Sometimes a whole grain cereal and milk. Occasionally steel cut oatmeal with canadian bacon or turkey sausage. Something substantial enough to be a meal, but not so heavy as to leave me feeling nauseous, bloated, and stuffed. 

Enough that I am just starting to feel my stomach growl by the time lunchtime rolls around.

Tracy


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## 1300 Class (Mar 5, 2006)

Regular low to medium intensity exercise, no snacks (chew gum), lots of fruit and water. You can eat any sort of food, it depends on how much of it. Get things low in sugar and fat. Of course that is hugely simplistic, and should seek other material or professionals and work out a proper plan and then stick to it.


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## Friday (Mar 5, 2006)

Eat what you like. I'm not fond of breakfast type foods for breakfast so I have a sandwich. Quick, portable (since I usually eat it in the car) and keeps me going 'til lunchtime. Yogurt, fruit and some kind of complex carbs is good and portable for snacks. I like Grape Nuts in my yogurt or a handful of whole grain crackers.

Being a person of size is not incompatible with eating a healthy diet.


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## Tiger's_Lily (Mar 5, 2006)

Be very careful of the breakfast cereal you eat, as they are LOADED with sodium! You may not have any health problems now but think 10 - 20 years ahead......ok? 

You do whatever makes YOU feel good! Your body, a lot of times, will tell you what it needs. 

Good luck!


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 5, 2006)

Drink lots of water, move your body every day, and try to eat a breakfast that includes lots of protein. It'll jumpstart your metabolism for the day. Other than that, try to make changes you can live with for LIFE. Diets suck, because they're usually impossible to stay with for any length of time. Lifestyle changes are for life and even if you don't lose weight, most of the time -- eating whole foods, exercise, drinking lots of water and limiting simple carbs -- they're very good for you and will help prevent some of those complications you're worried about.

Good for you for wanting to safeguard your health. Just don't get so focused on numbers. Focus on how your body feels as you make some good, lifelong changes.


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## olivefun (Mar 6, 2006)

I would listen to a lot of the comments in the messages that have been thoughtfully posted here, but talk to your trusted physician. Be careful about breakfast cereals, for example. Many granolas hide sodium, salt and alarming amounts of calories. 
Personally, I watch the amount of calories that come into my body and the amount of energy out. It is the ratio that is of concern. 
I have to sometimes watch things when I eat a lot. 
In my world, the big word is balance. 
I used to weigh a lot more than I do, and have weighed a lot less. 

I love wonderful dark european chocolates. The balance thing manifests itself so that I won't eat any *average* chocolates, saving myself for the treats that I can really enjoy. 

I find that if I make small decisions, I can manage my weight. 
The weight watchers system has worked for me, but I do weigh more now than I did before I started ww ever. 

Hope this helps.


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 6, 2006)

Sandie S-R said:


> Hi Bird of Beauty...
> 
> Dimensions is a fat acceptance site (a place where we celebrate BBWs), therefore we do not advocate nor promote dieting for weight loss. I would suggest if you are looking for weight loss support, you may want to find it at a site that is specifically for dieting and weight loss. You are wlcome to post here about any other aspect of being a BBW...just not about dieting and weight loss tips.



Sorry Sandie S-R...
I really didn't know how where to post this comment...I'm happy with being a BBW it's just that I don't want to get into bad health in the future...


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 6, 2006)

Thanks you guys! All of your comments have been soooo helpful! The reason why I want to lose the weight is because some of my family members have diabetes and high blood pressure and I am at a greater risk of getting these than other people (my father is a diabetic and has high blood pressure). I'm also noticing that when I walk for an extended period of time I am getting tired and I don't like that feeling.....

~Bird of Beauty~


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 6, 2006)

Totmacher said:


> It's my personal belief that the whole point of a, "diet" is to consume less food than you need to stay alive so your body will cannibalize itself and you will shrink, but to consume enough food that you don't end up cannibalizing something important (like your heart muscles). Then, afterwards, you're supposed to eat just enough to keep you alive and no more. needless to say diets don't work on me terribly well.
> 
> What's, like, typical breakfast food for you, B.o.B? I usually eat, like a bagel or a bowl of cereal on those rare occaisions I don't just skip to lunch.




Before you yell at me...most of the times I skip breakfast...I know, I know you are not supposed to skip this VERY important meal but in the morning I don't feel hungry so I don't eat. If I do eat I try to eat a fruit cup...I'll try the bagel though..

~Bird of Beauty~


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## olivefun (Mar 6, 2006)

Who knows about diets better than a fat person?


I think asking about dieting in a place like this has got to be the smartest. We certainly know a thing or two about watching weight than our thinner friends, if statistics prove anything..


What works well for me is logic.

The less processed foods have got to be easier for my body.

If you will be equally satisfied by a 1/2 bagel, or a fruit cup, think about it.

The bagel is made by processed white flour, tiny amounts of salt and sugar, not a lot of nutrition there. The fruit cup, provided it isn't canned with added sugars and preservatives, is probably a better choice.

I think about whether the thing resembles how it comes from the earth, for example, could you imagine a bagel growing, or an apple?
I try to eat foods that are grown nearer to me.

Except imported chocolates..
I make room for chocolates in my special kind of diet always.
But on the topic of chocolate, I make sure it is in fact, chocolate and not cocoa with sugar and fat that is listed in the ingredients.

Fake chocolate has the same calories as the good stuff.


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## Tad (Mar 6, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> The reason why I want to lose the weight is because some of my family members have diabetes and high blood pressure and I am at a greater risk of getting these than other people (my father is a diabetic and has high blood pressure). I'm also noticing that when I walk for an extended period of time I am getting tired and I don't like that feeling.....



Hey Bird, those are both great reasons to look after your health. Contrary to most of what you hear, that does not always mean losing weight. Losing weight might be a side affect of living healthier, but that will depend quite a bid on your specific body (meaning both genetics and what your body has been through since conception). It is very important to note that it is not only possible but very common to lose weight while becoming less healthy.

There is probably some association between weight and type 2 diabetes. However there is very definately a correlation between type 2 diabetes and physical activity--physical activity helps to ward it off. In addition eating smart is apt to help limit it too, in this case that means limiting sugar and highly processed starches. Not saying you can't have any of them, but try to eat less sweet stuff and more whole grains, and there glucose surges through your body will be lower, which lowers the stress on your system. To emphasize, not saying you have to totally eliminate sweets, just work steadily at weaning yourself off most sugar. While you are at it, avoid added salts and trans-fats (anything saying "hydrogenated vegetable oil" on the ingredients label, they are both good things to moderate.

As for getting tired when you are doing things, well the sure cure for that is to do more! That is, the more, and more intense, activity that you do, the more that you are capable of doing--especially at your young age. So by all means schedule a brisk walk into your day, or a swim, or some water aerobics, or even use some hand weights while watching TV or reading.

I say do all of this, and become healthier at your current size (or whatever size your body decides to become as you are doing all of this), and then and only then decide if you actually need to lose weight as well.

Whatever you decide to do, my best wishes on health and happiness!

-Ed


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## Tiger's_Lily (Mar 6, 2006)

I'm very glad the moderators have decided to bring this thread back to the main board. It's so important to get 'good advice' when considering losing a lot, or a little weight. As Edx mentioned, you are in excellent company for getting very good advice, because we've all 'been there, done that'. 

Bird of Beauty, take it from someone who has only just 'had' to start on B/P medication, if you need to change your eating or excercise routine to avoid taking any meds, then do it! 

The ONLY reason I'm keeping better check on what I eat is because of my health. I'm turing 51 this year and I'm finding I am now very concerned of what my weight is doing to my body. How many more years will it support such a huge load? People, believe me, it's scary!!


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## moonvine (Mar 6, 2006)

Tiger's_Lily said:


> I'm very glad the moderators have decided to bring this thread back to the main board. It's so important to get 'good advice' when considering losing a lot, or a little weight.



It seems off topic to me. It has nothing to do with fat acceptance.


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## Carrieanderson (Mar 6, 2006)

Bird of Beauty,
I haven't posted in a good while, mainly because I am with you on the kosing weight thing. I am, as stated in my previous posts 30 yrs old, & only 5'3", yet as of now I weigh 472lbs. I AM a proponent of size acceptance, believe me, & think fat is beautiful & extremely sexy, but there does come a time when, if it starts to interfere with your health, as mine is doing, you have to "take the bull by the horns." I don't think your post is out of place at all - you're not saying you want to be skinny - just healthy. I see myself now at almost 500lbs at age 30 & know that with a huge belly hanging closer & closer to my knees, an aching back, breathless from simply getting up out of a chair or walking for 2 minutes, if my weight keeps increasing as it is doing, I won't be alive - or have an reasonable quality of life - by age 50. Im a major compulsive eater - won't even get into that but suffice it to say I probably eat around 7-8 HUGE meals a day, plus constant snacks. Im a teacher, and every chance the kids arent looking I seem to be stuffing my face. Today I am home with bronchitis (another thing I seem to get more often as I grow fatter.) So - it's not that we are saying we want to be skinny - I know I will NEVER be skinny & have no desire to be. We just want to be able to enjoy our lives as gorgeous ssbbw's, but not so fat that life itself is impossible. And that's the direction I seem to quickly be heading in. So - I'm behind you 100%, & hopefully when I finally manage to somehow get my own eating under some sort of control I will be able to at least lose a FEW of these 472lbs. Even though Im only 5'3" I would be happy to be 300lbs again - but honestly, hauling almost 500lbs around on my small frame, at my age, is asking for trouble. I'm here if you ever need a friend (or have suggestions.)
A Big Hug to you,
Carrie Anderson


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## Tiger's_Lily (Mar 6, 2006)

moonvine said:


> It seems off topic to me. It has nothing to do with fat acceptance.




Actually, I believe it has EVERYTHING to do with 'fat acceptance'. Should we all just pretend that our weight isn't doing harm to our bodies? I'm not a total fool, I know it is! Am I going to go on a 'diet', no way in the world, as I know it won't work for me. Should I take better care of what I eat and how much excercise I get, ABSOLUTELY! 

If I need advice from others to help me become healthier, not neccessarily thinner, I would come to this board. I would hope I'd be shown compassion and be allowed to ask questions regarding health problems. 

Is 'fat acceptance' only for those who stay the same weight, or put it on? I would hope acceptance would be for those who want or need to lose some weight, either for their health, or, because they know their lives would be much easier to live. 

Joa


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## moonvine (Mar 6, 2006)

Well, I subscribe to NAAFA's position on dieting and the diet industry:



> Dieting" is defined as any attempt to achieve or maintain lower body weight by intentionally limiting or manipulating the amount or type of food intake. Weight reduction diets include medically supervised diets; self-administered diets; commercial diet organizations and centers; weight-loss support groups or behavior modification programs; "fad" diets; "sensible, well-balanced" diets; in-hospital fasts; very-low-calorie diets (VLCDs); prepackaged food plans; and diets supplemented by drugs or artificial food products or supplements.
> 
> Since reducing diets rarely achieve permanent weight loss and can result in negative health consequences, since laws and regulations protecting the consumer are nonexistent or remain unenforced, and since people undertaking diets are rarely given sufficient information to allow them to give true informed consent, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance strongly discourages participation in
> weight-reduction dieting. Further, NAAFA strongly condemns any diet marketing strategy based on guilt and fear. Such approaches cause untold suffering to fat people by ruining their self-esteem and by perpetuating negative stereotypes. NAAFA demands that local, state, and federal governments regulate the diet industry to protect the consumer from misleading claims regarding safety and long-term effectiveness.



Taken from: http://www.naafa.org/documents/policies/dieting.html

And I don't consider myself a fool, although obviously everyone has to form their own opinion on that


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## RedHead (Mar 6, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> Before you yell at me...most of the times I skip breakfast...I know, I know you are not supposed to skip this VERY important meal but in the morning I don't feel hungry so I don't eat. If I do eat I try to eat a fruit cup...I'll try the bagel though..
> 
> ~Bird of Beauty~




BoB...no yelling here; but I will tell you if you make a habit out of eating in the morning, you will find yourself less likely to have a sudden craving later in the day.

One of the most important things I learned was if you don't feel hungry first thing in the morning go for a energy smoothy (recipe to follow) stay away from carbs and sugar...go for protein with complex carbs.

There are lots of "books" online to help you know what these are...but if you like canadain bacon cook that with a scrambled egg...eat when you first get up...force yourself to eat something. In a couple of weeks you will be suprised at how your body will adapt to this.

MMMM Good Smoothie Recipe - From RedHeads Kitchen

Soy Milk - Low Fat or Skim Milk 8 to 16 oz
Sugar Free coffee Syrup such as Vanilla, Irish Cream or Hazelnut (my favorites) 1 to 2 jiggers (depending on how sweet you like stuff)
Soy Protein powder (follow directions on container
Frozen Blueberries (unsweetened) or Ice Cubes (1/4 cup or 3 to 4 ice cubes)

Place Milk into blender, add protein powder and blend well for 30 to 45 seconds, then add ice or frozen fruit (if you don't like blueberries go with something else high in antioxidants) Blend for about 1 minute or until it is smooth and creamy, serve immediately. I like to drink mine through a straw...it helps me to get it down so I don't go IIICCCKKK it's morning and I don't want to eat.

I hope this helps!


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## Tad (Mar 6, 2006)

moonvine said:


> It seems off topic to me. It has nothing to do with fat acceptance.



Hmmmm, I would disagree. I think really accepting size means also accepting that various sizes can have good and bad points. I'm an FA, and moderately fat myself, and I love fat on pretty much anyone, and I've been as eloquent as I know how on these boards with regard to gaining health being a better goal than losing weight.

BUT

I still think that sometimes it is reasonable for a person to ask, can I become somewhat less fat? Not because I reject being fat, but because it will make me a happier, healthier, fat person. Now, sometime the answer might be "No, probably you can't in a healthy way," but maybe sometimes there is some degree of healthy weight loss available. 

For what it is worth, I do recall the first really large scale study which I read about that had numbers supporting increased morbidity with weight also found that a loss of 10% of body weight seemed to make almost all the increased risk go away. Obviously that means that absolute weight was not the issue, as someone who was 300 and lost to 270 was showing less average risk than someone who stayed at 270.  I think pretty clearly the answer is that many people can gain a healthier life, with only modest weight loss.

Therefore, when someone comes in here, looking to lose weight, I think that rather than being driven off with sticks, they should be embraced.....and oh yes, informed! After all, it is our chance to help create that many more happy, healthy, fat people out there 

Regards;

Ed


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## moonvine (Mar 6, 2006)

edx said:


> I still think that sometimes it is reasonable for a person to ask, can I become somewhat less fat? Not because I reject being fat, but because it will make me a happier, healthier, fat person. Now, sometime the answer might be "No, probably you can't in a healthy way," but maybe sometimes there is some degree of healthy weight loss available.
> 
> Therefore, when someone comes in here, looking to lose weight, I think that rather than being driven off with sticks, they should be embraced.....and oh yes, informed! After all, it is our chance to help create that many more happy, healthy, fat people out there
> 
> ...



I think it is reasonable for people to ask - on sites devoted to that purpose. There are millions of diet sites out there. There are what, 3 fat acceptance discussion boards now? Why can't we have diet free spaces?


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 6, 2006)

Unless I am mistaken the question here is "Can I honestly say that I am healthy if I have any amount of excess weight on my body?"

Well, I have to admit that after seeing my grandparents both overweight living well into their 90's, I believe that fitness is more of an determinate of health that excess fat. Of course, I gladly would bow down to concrete evidence, that proved otherwise. 

Saying that, I haven't heard about any weight loss program that deals with weight more that health and fitness, usually ends in failure. So, I would recommend plans that deal with mostly with fitness!

And, you shouldn't worry! You have all the right to ask reasonable questions, like this, and look for advise.


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## olivefun (Mar 6, 2006)

There are a few undeniable facts about diets.
*
Whatever amount of weight you lose will most likely return (and invite friends)

The weight loss task is unpleasant.

While on a diet, you will have to make some difficult choices.*​
Knowing this, if you want to undertake this challenge, and you want some helpful advice, feel free to ask it from us. 

Many of us have lost lots and lots of weight.

If someone wants to ask my opinion here, I am ready to


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## ThatFatGirl (Mar 6, 2006)

olivefun said:


> Many of us have lost lots and lots of weight.



Oh heck yeah! I've lost at least 325 pounds! Every [email protected][email protected] one of them came back with "friends." I currently weigh more than I ever have in my life. 

My "diet" advice is not to diet. Don't do anything radical and do nothing that you can't do for the _rest of your life_. Pay attention to the fine print on all magazine or television diet ads that says "Results not typical." and believe it.

Move more and make healthier food choices where you can, avoid stress and get plenty of sleep each night. I think these are the keys to healthier living. Now if I could just do them myself! Good luck to you, BoB!


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## Tiger's_Lily (Mar 7, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think it is reasonable for people to ask - on sites devoted to that purpose. There are millions of diet sites out there. There are what, 3 fat acceptance discussion boards now? Why can't we have diet free spaces?




What is it that scares some people about talking about losing 'some' weight for health reasons? 

Bird of Beauty is a member of this community, why should she be forced to go elsewhere?

Also, why should anyone be 'scared' of asking for help on this board about anything at all, even......*heaven for bid*.....losing some weight? I don't mean to offend anyone here, it's just that I find it rude to turn on someone who needs help from her piers. Who better to ask about becoming a healthier 'fat person' than us fatties.....  

Ed has once again, hit the nail on the head with his post, especially this part. 


edx said:


> Therefore, when someone comes in here, looking to lose weight, I think that rather than being driven off with sticks, they should be embraced.....and oh yes, informed! After all, it is our chance to help create that many more happy, healthy, fat people out there



Joa


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## Mini (Mar 7, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think it is reasonable for people to ask - on sites devoted to that purpose. There are millions of diet sites out there. There are what, 3 fat acceptance discussion boards now? Why can't we have diet free spaces?



Dude (chick?),

If ya' don't like it, you don't have to read it. It's what, one topic out of a few thousand? Surely you're capable of finding one more in line with what you're interested in.

And for what it's worth, I think she's better off posting here as opposed to one of the other forums; here she's less likely to be demonized and criticized and may, *gasp* actually get some useful advice.

Don't get me wrong, I love fat woman and fat men as much as the next FA, but I'll be damned if I won't also try to help someone when they ask for it. It's hardly a conflict of interest, IMO.


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## RedHead (Mar 7, 2006)

IMHO BOB is in the right spot, asking the right people. Who else have years and years of experience with the diet industry. Who else can give honest one on one accounts of success' and failures. Who else can understand the pain and hopelessness that can accompany all of this.

We should be able to "accept" her decision that at her current weight, she is not quite happy with how her body operates. She just wants to feel comfortable in her own skin...and isn't that what all of us ultimately want?

Of course this is just IMHO.


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

When I read this thread a lot of things stand out to me. I am a fitness professional and have been a PE teacher in high school and have owned a fitness center for over 35 years. For some reason most people believe they know a lot about exercise, dieting and weight management. I mean, don't most people think that PE is as easy as basket weaving and agriculture? The truth is exercise science is part of science and exceedingly complex to comprehend. I would bet that not a single person here could read and understand the latest research in exercise science. I know that I cannot do so because the language is so technical that you need a degree in science or physiology to be able to use that language. I suppose basket weaving isn't easy, either! 

Well, people use words that are heavily loaded with all manner of theories and values. Here are some words and concepts that everyone thinks they know how to use but would probably have much to learn: healthy, diet, good for you, fatloss, exercise and so on. If you wonder what is healthy to eat then I suggest you go to a university bookstore and buy a textbook used in nutrition courses. Those graduates are experts in nutrition and diets. If you can understand such textbooks you won't have to ask these sorts of questions. Besides, what makes anyone confident that those giving advice are experts in these fields? Oh, I am not bagging the advice given here. 

The issue of bodysize, weight and health is a complex one. If you can reverse engineer your journey to your present body then you might be able to understand what occurred. It is assumed in exercise physiology that all body systems work in the same way. There are individual differences but I would bet that there is no complete theory that explains body composition in all humans. 

My advice as a fitness professional is to go and read about what interests you. When you have sufficient information you will be able to ask more specific questions and perhaps consult someone who is a professional who can assist you. 

On a lighthearted note, what makes you think the admirers would want any woman who is a size 32 to reduce her size!?


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

Can anyone confidently explain what the following study is all about?

Aust J Sci Med Sport 1994 Sep-Dec;26(3-4):49-58 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut 


Exercise-induced muscle damage and inflammation: a review.

Pyne DB.

Division of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Australian National University, Canberra.

Unaccustomed exercise may result in significant damage to skeletal muscle and cause delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) in both recreational and elite athletes. Two basic mechanisms-'metabolic' and 'mechanical' stress--have been proposed to explain how exercise initiates damage to skeletal muscle fibres. The extent of damage, particularly after eccentrically-biased exercise, has been assessed by histological and ultrastructural examination, and the measurement of the efflux of cytosolic enzymes into the circulation. The role of reactive oxygen species in the mediation of exercise-induced oxidative damage to muscle and the protection offered by anti-oxidant defence systems have been well studied. Free radical generation is normally estimated by indirect methods such as chemiluminescence, spectrophotometry, flow cytometry, or the measurement of products of lipid peroxidation such as malondialdehyde (MDA) and thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS). Although several theories have been proposed to account for the DOMS phenomenon, the underlying mechanisms are still to be elucidated. A group of proteins known collectively as cytokines regulate inflammatory and immunological processes involved in the repair of damaged tissue.


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

I agree with TL and Edx about the value of discussing anything that impacts on the lives of fat people.

I think the time has come to open a new forum here at Dimensions to discuss weight loss through diet and exercise. We have a forum for Weight Loss Surgery so isn't it just as important to let fat people be informed about other ways of losing fat?


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

To Bird of Beauty.

The internet is a wonderful thing. Besides asking people here you can go to Google and ask the same questions there. You will find an unending source of reading information.

Type in "Healthy eating" in Google and see how many links appear. Here are two to get you started.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/pyramids.html

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/hbp/prevent/h_eating/h_eating.htm


Good luck.


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## olivefun (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> On a lighthearted note, what makes you think the admirers would want any woman who is a size 32 to reduce her size!?



That is cute vince,
Ha

I would ask you what would make you think someone (who is a size anything) would care what the admirers want?

It is her body.

I think she decided that she would like to lose a little weight for her own reasons, and frankly whatever reason anyone has for weightloss (or weightgain, for that matter) is a personal decision.


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## HappyFatChick (Mar 7, 2006)

If you choose to lose weight, weight watchers has a board at dwlz.com (dotti's weight loss board with chat room). You will find like-minded people there.


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## moonvine (Mar 7, 2006)

Mini said:


> Dude (chick?),
> 
> If ya' don't like it, you don't have to read it. It's what, one topic out of a few thousand? Surely you're capable of finding one more in line with what you're interested in.
> 
> ...




I just don't see why we have to discuss weight loss on a fat acceptance board. It is kind of like discussing bass fishing on a movie board. 

Also, it may be triggering for some chronic dieters.

There are about 8 billion (number totally pulled out of my ass) board where people are *eager* to discuss weight loss. I have to see it on my financial boards. I have to see it on my television boards. I have to see it on my cruising boards. I have to see it on my couponing boards, for Christ's sake. It would just be nice to have more than one place on the Internet (currently Big Fat Blog is the only place I have, and I'm SO grateful to them for that) to have diet-free discussions. I guess if BFB is the only place I have, though, I just have to be grateful they are around and thankful I have one little, tiny place to escape all this constant diet talk.

And I'm female, by the way. If folks don't know that by now I must be doing something wrong.


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## Mini (Mar 7, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I just don't see why we have to discuss weight loss on a fat acceptance board. It is kind of like discussing bass fishing on a movie board.
> 
> Also, it may be triggering for some chronic dieters.
> 
> ...



I can see where you're coming from. Doesn't necessarily mean I agree with ya', but hey, that's what makes the Interweb such a great place. Cvilised disagreements and pornography as far as the eye can see. 

BTW, you're not doing anything wrong. I was just *very* tired last night when I wrote that and couldn't be arsed to do a little fact-checking.


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## HereticFA (Mar 7, 2006)

Most diet oriented boards in cyberspace are usually fat bashing boards with the main motivation being the demonization of appearing fat. That's a very significant reason to have a safe space in the fat acceptance community for those who want to discuss methods and approaches to influencing their weight. It may result in a ten percent weight loss for some, maybe stopping the ongoing weight gain in others. It may even mean some will no longer be even a BBW/BHM, much less a SSBBW/SSBHM. So be it. If you love something (or someone), set them free.

I understand those who oppose having "diet talk" in a fat acceptance area. I used to feel the same way. One thing changed for me. I stopped pursuing my fantasy and decided to listen to the voices of those around me. Those voices were frequently complaining of so many weight related health issues like joint pain and the cost of their meds for diabetes, hypertension and arthritis. Then I started to see some die. They died at ages much, much lower than average and their deaths were from illnesses that were not non-weight related but that also didn't kill average weight people their age. Some also died from weight related issues and some from the extreme measures chosen to escape their weight related issues. 

Those who fight obstinately against any and all weight loss talk seem very selfish. They are saying they don't care about health problems that people are having. All they want is their safe fat fantasy zone and how dare reality intrude. If they are fat and don't have weight related health problems, they should rejoice that they can live the fantasy. But they should accept that others are not so lucky and would like to get to where their health can improve, even if it means losing some weight. Unfortunately there are many in Fat Acceptance who do have grievous health problems but are in denial. They seem to be the most outspoken opponents to any discussions of attempts to lose weight, as if they demand everyone else join in with their denial process. That's dysfunctional and no one should enable that behavior.

We have lots of room within fat acceptance to accept that it is possible to have too much of a good thing. While I, like most FA's, believe someone looks much better with more fat, there are limits. Each person's weight threshold is different. Some can be at BMI's of 60 to 80 and do well. Others can have problems at only a BMI of 35. We need to get to where we all understand and respect that reality and focus on areas of job, health, and educational discrimination against fat people. 

Two decades ago in NAAFA we complained against employers who arbitrarily used weight as a sole determination for hiring. We said that performance metrics were preferred since that was a better indication of ability to perform the job. I want everyone to recognize the parallels between that issue and weight in general. If someone has existing health problems that are typically weight related and wants to lose enough weight to improve those problems, they should be able to do so without fattening the diet Mafia's pockets. What better way to fight the thievery of classic diet purveyors that to freely share what does and doesn't work to influence weight?

Another issue with the "no diet talk" and "diets don't work" stance some are taking is it frequently leaves desperate fat people only one remaining solution: weight loss surgery. Ironically, those most adamantly opposed to WLS are also those who militantly censor any and all talk of weight loss. Despite what I and many others in fat acceptance would like to believe, some methods of weight loss do work for some people as I've seen several people lose over 100 pounds and keep it off for over five years by diet and exercise. I hope that some day, the only people who are fat are those who choose to be fat and that they are as fat as they want to be. I also hope that those who chose not to be fat didn't exchange one set of comorbidities for another by whatever method they chose to influence their weight. While that day is far in the future, I believe it can happen. But it has to start somewhere and it has to start one small step at a time.

Conrad, I request that you consider adding another board on the Dimensions web site for weight loss discussions that don't involve WLS. We need a safe space to help people regain influence over their weight, even if it means losing some of their beautiful fat.


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## moonvine (Mar 7, 2006)

HereticFA said:


> Most diet oriented boards in cyberspace are usually fat bashing boards with the main motivation being the demonization of appearing fat. That's a very significant reason to have a safe space in the fat acceptance community for those who want to discuss methods and approaches to influencing their weight. It may result in a ten percent weight loss for some, maybe stopping the ongoing weight gain in others. It may even mean some will no longer be even a BBW/BHM, much less a SSBBW/SSBHM. So be it. If you love something (or someone), set them free.



There is such a space for discussion at Dimensions Magazine already. I am not sure why people insist that every fat acceptance board tolerate it. 




> Those who fight obstinately against any and all weight loss talk seem very selfish.



Personally, I think it is extremely selfish to insist that fat acceptance boards accept and tolerate diet talk. I don't care what other people weigh or don't weigh. What I do hope for is a few safe spaces within the fat acceptance community where I don't have to hear about dieting. 

By the way, fat for me is no fantasy. It is my reality. I have no fantasies whatsoever about fat or about fat people. I practice a HAES approach and so far it is working for me. 

However, if I ever decided I want to diet, which is about as likely as deciding that I want to slam my head into a brick wall repeatedly, I won't come here and talk about it. That would be rude. I would go to one of the many, many, many diet boards on the internet. Or to my financial board. Or to my couponing board. Or to my television board. Or to Dimensions Magazine. What I wouldn't do is go to a fat acceptance site. Sheesh.


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## altered states (Mar 7, 2006)

NFA said:


> If your concern is actually with your HEALTH, then I'd suggest less focus on your size jeans and more focus on your actual health. Efforts to lose weight fail 95-99% of the time.



Right on. Focusing on losing weight is a recipe for disaster. You will be fatter and in far worse health than when you started. The diet industry is filled with more scammers than a used car lot, and their "techniques" are literally made for you to fail. How else to get you to buy another diet plan? 

To improve health:

1. Eat a variety of REAL food, until you're full, with other people who enjoy it and your company when possible. By "real", I mean if it contains things not found in nature, don't eat it. I'm totally serious. The prime cause of diabetes II today is high fructose corn syrup, found in most sodas, store-bought sweets, etc. It sounds natural (fructose, corn) but it's not. It's man-made, and messes terribly with your insulin levels and should be considered poison, like dioxin or plutonium. And use natural, healthy fats for flavor - don't be afraid of them. Olive or canola oil is best, though butter won't kill you. It's certainly better for you than margarine or palm oil or the other horrible trans fats found in processed/store bought stuff.

2. Do as much low impact exercise as you can and that fits naturally into your lifestyle, and watch your joints. Pain is bad under any circumstances. Don't bother joining a gym or buying equipment. Invest in comfortable sneakers - try on 50 pairs if you have to - and walk wherever and whenever feasible. Get some very light dumbells and lift them while you watch tv.

Warning: you may lose weight doing these two things, though it may not be as quick and dramatic as you like. But you will definitely be healthier.


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 7, 2006)

Carrieanderson said:


> Bird of Beauty,
> I haven't posted in a good while, mainly because I am with you on the kosing weight thing. I am, as stated in my previous posts 30 yrs old, & only 5'3", yet as of now I weigh 472lbs. I AM a proponent of size acceptance, believe me, & think fat is beautiful & extremely sexy, but there does come a time when, if it starts to interfere with your health, as mine is doing, you have to "take the bull by the horns." I don't think your post is out of place at all - you're not saying you want to be skinny - just healthy. I see myself now at almost 500lbs at age 30 & know that with a huge belly hanging closer & closer to my knees, an aching back, breathless from simply getting up out of a chair or walking for 2 minutes, if my weight keeps increasing as it is doing, I won't be alive - or have an reasonable quality of life - by age 50. Im a major compulsive eater - won't even get into that but suffice it to say I probably eat around 7-8 HUGE meals a day, plus constant snacks. Im a teacher, and every chance the kids arent looking I seem to be stuffing my face. Today I am home with bronchitis (another thing I seem to get more often as I grow fatter.) So - it's not that we are saying we want to be skinny - I know I will NEVER be skinny & have no desire to be. We just want to be able to enjoy our lives as gorgeous ssbbw's, but not so fat that life itself is impossible. And that's the direction I seem to quickly be heading in. So - I'm behind you 100%, & hopefully when I finally manage to somehow get my own eating under some sort of control I will be able to at least lose a FEW of these 472lbs. Even though Im only 5'3" I would be happy to be 300lbs again - but honestly, hauling almost 500lbs around on my small frame, at my age, is asking for trouble. I'm here if you ever need a friend (or have suggestions.)
> A Big Hug to you,
> Carrie Anderson



Exactly Carrie you said everything in a nutshell of what I was trying to say..Thanks for the encouragement and I'll probably send you messages when I get frustrated 

~Bird of Beauty~


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> To Bird of Beauty.
> 
> The internet is a wonderful thing. Besides asking people here you can go to Google and ask the same questions there. You will find an unending source of reading information.
> 
> ...


Thanks!
~Bird of Beauty~


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 7, 2006)

tres huevos said:


> Right on. Focusing on losing weight is a recipe for disaster. You will be fatter and in far worse health than when you started. The diet industry is filled with more scammers than a used car lot, and their "techniques" are literally made for you to fail. How else to get you to buy another diet plan?
> 
> To improve health:
> 
> ...



The reason why I typed in my jean size is because I don't know how much I weigh...The last time I weighed myself (which was like 2 yrs ago) it said 341 pounds..But I think I might have gained about 20-30 pounds since then....

Thanks for the eating tips...also I did in fact join a gym...the YWCA. I want to know why you don't want a person joining the gym?


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## Angel (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> Can anyone confidently explain what the following study is all about?
> 
> Aust J Sci Med Sport 1994 Sep-Dec;26(3-4):49-58 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
> 
> ...




Performing vigorous physical activities which your body is not familiar with can possibly cause great injury to skeletal muscles. It can also cause muscle aches and tenderness which may not immediately be felt. This may happen to even those who are athletic on a regular basis and to the most skilled of athletes. (That's only the first sentence! So much for us couch potatoes!) Basicly the study is saying that you can injure muscle fibers when doing exercises that you don't normally do. You may not feel the pain when the injury initially happens. There are several theories which try to explain DOMS, but the underlying mechanisms have not been clarified. (To understand the rest, you have to have a some medical knowledge. I understand it, but it's not easy to explain in a simple manner.) 

If you're trying a new exercise, take it slow and don't do too many reps. You could injure your muscles and not realise it right away. You may not feel pain until AFTER the damage is done.

Advice from one who knows and suffers from the pain!


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 7, 2006)

HereticFA said:


> Most diet oriented boards in cyberspace are usually fat bashing boards with the main motivation being the demonization of appearing fat. That's a very significant reason to have a safe space in the fat acceptance community for those who want to discuss methods and approaches to influencing their weight. It may result in a ten percent weight loss for some, maybe stopping the ongoing weight gain in others. It may even mean some will no longer be even a BBW/BHM, much less a SSBBW/SSBHM. So be it. If you love something (or someone), set them free.



Yes yes yes, a thousand times YES! Most dieting (and WLS) boards are filled with such fat self hatred, such disgust for fat, that I feel I don't fit in there at ALL. What on earth do I have in common with a 120 pound woman who wants to lose 10 pounds to get into a bikini? Or someone who's never weighed over 200 pounds so who can't "get" how, for me, weighing 200 is really "thin enough". Even at this weight I'm still far far far larger than any of the women on the WLS and dieting boards I've cruised. Having to lose 100 pounds for health is a far different thing than the 20-30 most people want to lose to fit into a smaller size for aesthetic reasons. They've never faced the health and mobility problems I have, they've never faced the looks or negative comments, or anything even remotely like that. 

So to be there would require either a) speaking the party line and spewing hatred for my size that I just don't feel or b) educating them about size acceptance. Now, while it would be nice to educate people about size acceptance if I'm in a place where I need support, having to do that (over and over because it's so counter to the cultural message we all receive) takes away the reason I went there. Here, we speak the same language. 

So for me, having a place to discuss my weight loss, within the context of fat not being an evil thing (just too much of a good thing as you say) is very important. And I'd like to suggest, like I did a few weeks ago when this came up before, that we maybe tweak the WLS board to involve discussion of weight loss of ALL kinds. That way those who don't want to be exposed to it (and I can sure understand that) aren't, and yet those who want to lose weight for whatever reason will have a safe, fat friendly place to do it. None of us are talking about becoming walking stick figures. We just want to be able to move, to be healthier, to feel more at home in our skin. And for some of us, that involves some weight loss.


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## RedHead (Mar 7, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> Yes yes yes, a thousand times YES! Most dieting (and WLS) boards are filled with such fat self hatred, such disgust for fat, that I feel I don't fit in there at ALL. What on earth do I have in common with a 120 pound woman who wants to lose 10 pounds to get into a bikini? Or someone who's never weighed over 200 pounds so who can't "get" how, for me, weighing 200 is really "thin enough". Even at this weight I'm still far far far larger than any of the women on the WLS and dieting boards I've cruised. Having to lose 100 pounds for health is a far different thing than the 20-30 most people want to lose to fit into a smaller size for aesthetic reasons. They've never faced the health and mobility problems I have, they've never faced the looks or negative comments, or anything even remotely like that.
> 
> So to be there would require either a) speaking the party line and spewing hatred for my size that I just don't feel or b) educating them about size acceptance. Now, while it would be nice to educate people about size acceptance if I'm in a place where I need support, having to do that (over and over because it's so counter to the cultural message we all receive) takes away the reason I went there. Here, we speak the same language.
> 
> So for me, having a place to discuss my weight loss, within the context of fat not being an evil thing (just too much of a good thing as you say) is very important. And I'd like to suggest, like I did a few weeks ago when this came up before, that we maybe tweak the WLS board to involve discussion of weight loss of ALL kinds. That way those who don't want to be exposed to it (and I can sure understand that) aren't, and yet those who want to lose weight for whatever reason will have a safe, fat friendly place to do it. None of us are talking about becoming walking stick figures. We just want to be able to move, to be healthier, to feel more at home in our skin. And for some of us, that involves some weight loss.




"The Sweet, Kind, Wonderful, Loving and Wise Vickie" as I like to call her is so very correct. Thank you for putting it so succiently!


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## Angel (Mar 7, 2006)

HereticFA: Excellent post.

I know what it is like to be 400 pounds *overweight*. When someone my size is physically ill and needs to lose weight, there are only three options given by physicians: WLS, liquid diets, and starvation (or in other words a drasticly reduced daily caloric intake). This is Dimensions, we are not talking about people who are only 50 or 100 pounds overweight. Those people can see the light at the end of the tunnel. For some of us, that light is miles and miles away. A person who is hundreds of pounds *overweight* cannot be treated in the same way as a person who is only 50 pounds overweight. Being told that we have to lose weight using the same process as a smaller person only sets us up for failure. Many of us have been down that road too many times. If we are not given the opportunity to share what did not work, we could very well see another fat person be led down those same detrimental paths. 

Some are happy and healthy being obese. Others are not. Who are we to deny anyone of their desire for happiness or of a healthier or less painful existence?

There is a difference between dieting for appearance and wanting to live a healthy lifestyle. Some of us want to continue to LIVE, improve our health and well being, but do not want to have wls. Is there not a place for us here??? Do we have to act as if that area of our life doesn't exist? Do we have to deny a huge facet of our life to please those who are fixated on numbers or increasing numbers? 

Would you rather someone stay their current size, be miserable, unhealthy, in constant pain, immobile, or end up not being alive??? THIS is what I do not understand. How can anyone who claims to be a fat admirer or someone who is size accepting believe that their personal ideas and fantasies are more important than anothers ability to LIVE and not merely exist?


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## MissToodles (Mar 7, 2006)

Thank you for explaining why size positive weight loss spaces are needed. I used to frequent a few diet boards and thread after thread featured things like "I used to be so hideous & fat" or the prostelizers who wanted to help save us really, really fat folk because they have seen the light. I would never speak diet-ese to someone who doesn't want to hear it. It's boring. I also refuse to go on and on about how "ugly" my body is at its current size.


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## Angel (Mar 7, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> And I'd like to suggest, like I did a few weeks ago when this came up before, that we maybe tweak the WLS board to involve discussion of weight loss of ALL kinds. That way those who don't want to be exposed to it (and I can sure understand that) aren't, and yet those who want to lose weight for whatever reason will have a safe, fat friendly place to do it. None of us are talking about becoming walking stick figures. We just want to be able to move, to be healthier, to feel more at home in our skin. And for some of us, that involves some weight loss.



I agree. I like reading all the boards, but recently I have read some not-so-nice posts on the WLS controversy forum. Discussion and relating personal views is one thing, but purposely berating others because of choices they have made or are considering doesn't seem to go along with the friendly Dimensions atmosphere. 

Makes me wonder what happened to having compassion and consideration for others.


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## altered states (Mar 7, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> I want to know why you don't want a person joining the gym?



I myself belong to a gym, but it took me a long time to integrate movement and exercise into my life to the point where I felt it wouldn't be a waste. I'm also lucky enough to be able to afford a personal trainer to make sure I'm not hurting myself. For someone who's sedentary, I worry that the cost, negative atmosphere, chance of injury, and high-pressure sales nonsense at many gyms will turn them off ALL exercise. That said, I think the YWCA is a great choice (as opposed to Ballys, etc) because you'll find little of that. 

My advice: GO SLOW and know what you're doing. Go online for a few hours and do some research into proper techniques for exercise for bigger people. Someone who is big, no matter how young they are, can seriously mess up their joints if they try to replicate what's being done in books, videos or by well-meaning instructors. Also, as buff as your gymmates might look, there's a good chance the majority of them are training the wrong way, so they're probably not much help either. Don't feel the need to keep up with the gym rats, either. They really don't care what you're doing - they're too busy looking at themselves. 10 minutes at slow pace on the treadmill is fine to start, and when that no longer makes you break a sweat, move up to 15, and so on. 

I'm hardly an expert, but I'd avoid anything that shocks your joints or stretches them the wrong way by bearing too much weight... For instance, running, jumping, or the old "gym class" situp technique. Also see if maybe there are low impact exercise classes that use the pool, as tghe effects of gravity are somewhat abated by the water, meaning less stress on joints. 

I'm not trying to discourage you or scare you - I swear! Just take a little time and do some research. I injured myself badly 10 years ago by just throwing myself into the gym without any guidance or knowledge. Good luck!


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## altered states (Mar 7, 2006)

One more thing, then I'll shut up: Throw out your scale, and stay off the one at the Y, no matter how tempting. Muscle weighs more than fat, and as you start to get in shape, you may just be trading fat for muscle for a while, with the scale barely budging. There's no need to get discouraged by this. If you start to feel better, can do more stuff without getting tired, and the doctor says you're no longer in danger of diabetes or hypertension, who really cares what you weigh? My girlfriend is super healthy, in top shape, has loads of energy, and people are always shocked by how much she weighs. Weight really is just a number.


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## Totmacher (Mar 7, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> Before you yell at me...most of the times I skip breakfast...I know, I know you are not supposed to skip this VERY important meal but in the morning I don't feel hungry so I don't eat. If I do eat I try to eat a fruit cup...I'll try the bagel though..
> 
> ~Bird of Beauty~



Nah, it's all good. The problem is then you can't (well, shouldn't) make up for it later and that absolutely _sucks_. I would also reccomend granola, yogurt, two eggs prepared any style, or a cereal with as little sugar as possible. Most breakfast food isn't that great anyway. It's mostly dessert food, but atleast you're eating something so your body is busy digesting and metabolising instead of starving until lunch.


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

If NAAFA is correct and over 95% of diets don't work then the only reason we could have for not talking about dieting is that we want the women to NOT gain any more weight! If dieting actually ends up making people heavier by gaining more fat then admirers would all be sneakily encouraging their partners and fat women in general to diet to lose fat! I mean, is this true or is this rubbish? We can't have it both ways.

NAAFA has failed zillions of fat people in the past because of this ridiculous notion of fat acceptance. When that organization first started it was dedicated to aid fat Americans. Well, if we truly want to aid fat Americans then we should be helping them with various size and weight related issues and needs. If some need to be better informed about possible ways to safely lose fat and weight then they should be able to discuss it. Those who oppose this and argue that they want a place where they can NOT see dieting talk don't have to read those threads. A special forum would give everyone a choice to read or ignor it.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> If NAAFA is correct and over 95% of diets don't work then the only reason we could have for not talking about dieting is that we want the women to NOT gain any more weight! If dieting actually ends up making people heavier by gaining more fat then admirers would all be sneakily encouraging their partners and fat women in general to diet to lose fat! I mean, is this true or is this rubbish? We can't have it both ways.
> 
> NAAFA has failed zillions of fat people in the past because of this ridiculous notion of fat acceptance. When that organization first started it was dedicated to aid fat Americans. Well, if we truly want to aid fat Americans then we should be helping them with various size and weight related issues and needs. If some need to be better informed about possible ways to safely lose fat and weight then they should be able to discuss it. Those who oppose this and argue that they want a place where they can NOT see dieting talk don't have to read those threads. A special forum would give everyone a choice to read or ignor it.



NAAFA policy on Diets

NAAFA policy on Fitness

Next time do your homework, Vince. 

By the way, I would like to renew the my call for section be set up for the discussion of health issues, other that WLS!


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

What homework? I reread NAAFA position on dieting and they claim that 95 % regain lost weight and that 1/3 put on more weight. So admirers who love to see fat women get fatter have a one in three chance of their women getting fatter if they make them diet for weight loss!


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> What homework? I reread NAAFA position on dieting and they claim that 95 % regain lost weight and that 1/3 put on more weight. So admirers who love to see fat women get fatter have a one in three chance of their women getting fatter if they make them diet for weight loss!



As, for you statement that " NAAFA has failed zillions of fat people in the past because of this ridiculous notion of fat acceptance."

Well, "if you read the policies at the links" you would know that they discourage diets in favour of joining health clubs and get more exercise. Something the NAAFA claims is alot more successful that dieting!

And, that when NAAFA says dieting, they mean above and beyond lowering you intake of suger, salt and etc. 

And, by the way, most FAs on this boards including myself, wouldn't want to see people they care about gain weight if it meant decreased health. The effects of yo-yo dieting on a person body, far outweights any joy a FAs get for watching someone gain weight.


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

What would NAAFA know about dieting? They are not expert in this field. I so dislike the way they collect all studies that support what they want to believe and disregard those that do not. That is not being scientific. I understand their agenda but disagree about what they say re dieting and exercise. From what I know I would say that NAAFA's agenda is to keep fat women the same. That just doesn't sit well with me. All the fat women I have known want to lose fat. There are no exceptions. Not one. Not one fat woman wants to remain supersized. If WLS is a risky thing to do then what alternatives do fat women have? That is what worries me. I suppose most are waiting for a safe pharmacological solution.


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## moonvine (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> What homework? I reread NAAFA position on dieting and they claim that 95 % regain lost weight and that 1/3 put on more weight. So admirers who love to see fat women get fatter have a one in three chance of their women getting fatter if they make them diet for weight loss!



When people come here and want to know the best way to gain weight I always tell them to go on a diet and lose 10-20 pounds, then go back to eating normally. They will regain it plus some more. Repeat as desired.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 7, 2006)

Vince said:


> What would NAAFA know about dieting? They are not expert in this field. I so dislike the way they collect all studies that support what they want to believe and disregard those that do not. That is not being scientific. I understand their agenda but disagree about what they say re dieting and exercise. From what I know I would say that NAAFA's agenda is to keep fat women the same. That just doesn't sit well with me. All the fat women I have known want to lose fat. There are no exceptions. Not one. Not one fat woman wants to remain supersized. If WLS is a risky thing to do then what alternatives do fat women have? That is what worries me. I suppose most are waiting for a safe pharmacological solution.



Let me ask you a question. If you are looking for a expert on dieting, who would you go to? A person who already tried countless diets, or someone who never need one? 

On the issues of collecting studies, I can't answer for NAAFA, but sites like BIGFATBLOG, donttellmewhatsizeimustb and the book "Fat Politics collects every and all studies, and debates them equality. 

As for NAAFA's agenda, since their last convention have a strong execrise and health element, I can't see how they are trying to keep fat people fat. 
And, if we are into to keeping people fat why are we calling ourselves the size acceptance movement, and trying to start dealing with issues of anoexria? 

Other thing, can you remind me which page on this site or the NAAFA, says the supersized women are required to stay supersized, to keep their membership? 

One more thing, all the fat women you know might really want to lose weight, but I can honestly say that I don't care if I lose weight, or not! And, I believe there are people on these boards that feel the same way.


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## NFA (Mar 7, 2006)

Diets don't work if you really want them to.

Diets don't work if you really need them to.

Diets don't work if you hope hard enough.

Diets don't work if you really are unhappy.

Diets don't work if you really are too fat.

Diets don't work if you wish upon star.

Diets don't work.

I'm sick and tired of having to listen to people self-righteously insist that I support something that has done nothing but fail fat people, nothing but offer false promises, nothing but impede efforts to increase the quality of life for fat people in their bodies. No! No, I won't support that. Don't you dare tell me I have some moral imperative to endorse such an epic and tragic failure just because of the subjectivist notion that someone, somewhere, really really wants it to work. Someone else wanting something is no cause for me to abandon my right to my hard-thought beliefs. Yet, we see here that some use that as justification to demand I give-up my beliefs in service of theirs. I do not seek out diet websites to express my views. Were I to do so, I would expect to be resoundingly condemned and quite possibly banned. As well I should be if I saw fit to act with such disrespect to other people's opinions. I may think what they are doing is a mistake, but it is theirs to make and I will not seek them out to express myself. Yet here, at a site which supposedly grew out of a political movement very much aligned against dieting for a host of very good reasons, we constantly see not only those who insist on presenting their contrary views, but who go as far as to attack and belittle those whose views are in keeping with fat acceptance. It is a pitiful state of affairs, and one which inspires no empathy for those who demonstrate their lack of respect for my beliefs or even my right to my beliefs.

Frankly, this whole discussion ought to be moved again. This time to the Weight Board. While dieting has never been proven to make people healthier, happier, or even thinner, it has shown to be remarkably successful for weight gain.


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

Finally I agree with NFA. Well, one thing I have said before is that the statement "diets don't work" is literally false. It works in 5 % of people. Now why isn't NAAFA concentrating on those 5% and trying find ways to increase that percentage of successful dieters?


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## Angel (Mar 7, 2006)

NFA said:


> I'm sick and tired of having to listen to people self-righteously insist that I support something that has done nothing but fail fat people, nothing but offer false promises, nothing but impede efforts to increase the quality of life for fat people in their bodies. No! No, I won't support that. Don't you dare tell me I have some moral imperative to endorse such an epic and tragic failure just because of the subjectivist notion that someone, somewhere, really really wants it to work. Someone else wanting something is no cause for me to abandon my right to my hard-thought beliefs. Yet, we see here that some use that as justification to demand I give-up my beliefs in service of theirs.



Do you not realize that countless FAT women (and men) could say the exact same thing...............but it would not have anything to do with the context of trying to *lose* weight?


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## Vince (Mar 7, 2006)

NAAFA and others don't want to be seen to be against health. So they advocate gentle exercise for fat populations. What makes them experts in exercise physiology? Okay, they are just an organization of individuals who rely upon experts in other fields. They assemble and endorse experts who agree or support the organization policies. That is hardly being unbiased. 

Look, if you have TV shows like the Biggest Loser it is obvious that severe, persistent weight/fat loss programs do in fact work. The trick for everyone is to keep that fat off. That is not so easy as countless fat people can testify. It is much more difficult for many reasons than the exercise people and doctors accept. So the result is that those professionals conclude that fat people are not motivated enough or persistent enough or something else. You see, there are always some who lose fat and then are so happy about keeping it off. So, why do we persist in claiming that fat-loss diets don't work? Ask any competitive bodybuilder about that nonsense. Many in the off season gain up to 100 pounds then lose most of it in the months leading up to a competition. The idea is that some of that weight gain is lean tissue and not fat. Trim away the fat and you end up with more muscle. These guys do it yearly. So I don't believe that diets don't work. That is patent nonsense. What muddies the waters here is a bit of cheating. When they say that diets don't work they include a time after the diet and if you regain the lost weight then they 'don't work'. What kind of crap is this? No wonder NAAFA, fat people and the general public are confused. Either something is the case in Science or it is not. You cannot have it both ways. I think we all need to be more honest in our thinking about diets. That means we have to be more scientific. 

Does that mean that fat people can easily lose fat and weight? Not at all for heaps of reasons. However, if fat people hope to be able to reverse the amount of fat on them then they have to do something. Most, I guess, would prefer to take a pill and lose. If it were safe to do so. Unfortunately the history of various drugs is not a nice one. There are too many risks and side affects with unknown drugs. 

Someone said that rich people employ all kinds of tricks to lose fat and keep it off. That is true and it includes all kinds of cosmetic surgery such as liposuction. What are the poorer fat folk supposed to do? Pray? This is a serious problem and one that should be extremely important on sites such as Dimensions. Conrad asked for suggestions to improve the services for fat people. Well, this is one place that could be addressed instead of sweeping it under the carpet. 

Do you think I tell fat people that present at my gym that there is nothing we can do for them? That is preposterous. If you truly want to change your body composition you have to do something about it.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 7, 2006)

Very true, Vince. 

My circumstance was that I gained weight because I consumed far more than I needed to, given my sedentary lifestyle. Sure, there is probably some genetic disposition; my mother is heavy, as are many relatives on both sides of the family. 

I dislike exercise. I want to eat my favorite types of food (carbs, carbs and more carbs ... followed by a sugar rush), and I don't want to modify my portions. I love my 300+ calorie lattes, and will drink at least 1 per day, if not two. In other words, I want it all ... and I don't want to gain weight. I believe that this is the circumstance for many (but certainly not all) of us. 

Diets don't work because they are impractical, and require the kind of willpower that most of us do not have long term. Lifestyle changes are not diets -- but they also require committment. 

One solution for me has been to exercise more. I dislike it, and it's a real chore -- but I do it. I don't want to eat less. The trade off is, I have to exercise more. I'm not losing weight, but at least I'm not gaining any right now. If I do, I will have to consider modifying my portion sizes, or eliminating some of the carbs in my diet. I have to do these things, because I can't bear the thought of failure. I was not meant to weigh close to 300 lbs. I know this, because my body was failing me at that weight. The point here is that I am searching for solutions -- I cannot and will not go back to where I was; at least, not without a fight.

I dislike traditional 'dieting' sites for many of the same reasons that some here have stated that they dislike diet talk. People who frequent these type of places are often fat hating, and the 'solutions' to their (mostly cosmetic) weight loss needs are impractical -- not to mention, very punishing. 

People who are fat & healthy -- those who *can* move, and are strong, and have no co-morbidities related to weight -- why would they need to make changes? The rest of us aren't so lucky.


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## Angel (Mar 7, 2006)

Female weighs XYZ or more pounds during 1993-2000, a SSBBW more than well qualifying for The Club. In 2000 a medical condition arises.

Female makes a change in her choices of foods, choosing foods that are healthier for her due to her medical concerns or conditions. Her intention was not to lose weight. Her intention was to feel better and to eat healthier. No changes were made in her activity level.

Female weighs 111 pounds less one year later.

Female gradually begins to reintroduce most foods that were avoided in the previous year back into her "daily food intake".

Female gains 24 pounds within the next year.

Female continues to eat what she wants... whenever she wants... and in whatever quantaties she desires. Female does not try to lose weight. Her "daily food intake" continues to be typical for her.

Female now weighs 75 pounds less than her previous weight of XYZ which was six years ago.


The Female is me. Yes, I know I am unique. Am I trying to lose weight? No! Do I want to be healthy and make healthy choices in my life? Yes! Am I trying to not be a SSBBW? No! I love being fat and soft, but I also want to be as healthy as possible. Being both fat and healthy can coexist within one human body. If you cannot have someones best interest at heart, then you lack care and concern for that person regardless of what your preferences may be.

It is completely inaccurate or false to believe or to tell others that better food choices or healthier food choices never, cannot, or will not possibly lead to weight loss. It is a disservice to tell fat people that they should never attempt to try to lead a healthier life. It is a disservice to fat people to tell them that they will fail before they even have a chance to hear the honest and true facts. 

I can also say that some diets do work. Weight loss or restricted diets can work if you stay on them for the rest of your life. Once you go off of them, your body may hoard any additional calories and possibly turn them into fat. It's not so much that diets fail, it is that *proper nutrition for life* is not taught as part of a diet plan. Most fad diets do not work in the long run because you can't forever stick to their restrictions. There is a difference between "fad diets", "weight loss diets", "restricted diet", "low calorie diet" and the word "diet". The word "diet" simply refers to ones daily food intake. 

Do not allow your preferences, sexual preference, or fantasies to take away every ounce of hope of a heathier life from someone who may have found this site or asked a question of us while on a desperate quest for a less painful or more pleasant existence.


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## Mini (Mar 8, 2006)

NFA said:


> Diets don't work if you really want them to.
> 
> Diets don't work if you really need them to.
> 
> ...



I forget, are you referring to fad diets or portion control coupled with exercise?

'Cause one is kinda "Well, no shit," while the other can and will work.


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## Tiger's_Lily (Mar 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> I forget, are you referring to fad diets or portion control coupled with exercise?
> 'Cause one is kinda "Well, no shit," while the other can and will work.





haha......Mini, I love the way you 'plan' your words so well!.....


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## moonvine (Mar 8, 2006)

Vince said:


> Look, if you have TV shows like the Biggest Loser it is obvious that severe, persistent weight/fat loss programs do in fact work.



Programs like The Biggest Loser allow people to lose weight - heck, a lot of weight. TEMPORARILY. From what I understand, the weight regain from the first season has already begun, and within 5 years those poor people will have gained everything back plus some more. Unfortunately in 5 years public interest will have long since died, so that point won't be driven home. (Not that anyone would believe it anyway, they'd place the blame on the contestants). 

I was horrified from the beginning. The show is promoting something that is not realistic, and more importantly, not safe. 

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50400


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## moonvine (Mar 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> I forget, are you referring to fad diets or portion control coupled with exercise?





> "Dieting" is defined as any attempt to achieve or maintain lower body weight by intentionally limiting or manipulating the amount or type of food intake.



http://www.naafa.org/documents/policies/dieting.html

I hope that answers your question.


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## Tracyarts (Mar 8, 2006)

"I forget, are you referring to fad diets or portion control coupled with exercise?

'Cause one is kinda "Well, no shit," while the other can and will work."



Heh! Love it! Yeah, totally on the same wavelength as me regarding this subject. 

Tracy


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 8, 2006)

NFA said:


> Diets don't work if you really want them to.
> 
> Diets don't work if you really need them to.
> 
> ...



Since when is a lively debate, considered disrespectful to other persons opinions!


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 8, 2006)

Vince said:


> NAAFA and others don't want to be seen to be against health. So they advocate gentle exercise for fat populations. What makes them experts in exercise physiology? Okay, they are just an organization of individuals who rely upon experts in other fields. They assemble and endorse experts who agree or support the organization policies. That is hardly being unbiased.
> 
> Look, if you have TV shows like the Biggest Loser it is obvious that severe, persistent weight/fat loss programs do in fact work. The trick for everyone is to keep that fat off. That is not so easy as countless fat people can testify. It is much more difficult for many reasons than the exercise people and doctors accept. So the result is that those professionals conclude that fat people are not motivated enough or persistent enough or something else. You see, there are always some who lose fat and then are so happy about keeping it off. So, why do we persist in claiming that fat-loss diets don't work? Ask any competitive bodybuilder about that nonsense. Many in the off season gain up to 100 pounds then lose most of it in the months leading up to a competition. The idea is that some of that weight gain is lean tissue and not fat. Trim away the fat and you end up with more muscle. These guys do it yearly. So I don't believe that diets don't work. That is patent nonsense. What muddies the waters here is a bit of cheating. When they say that diets don't work they include a time after the diet and if you regain the lost weight then they 'don't work'. What kind of crap is this? No wonder NAAFA, fat people and the general public are confused. Either something is the case in Science or it is not. You cannot have it both ways. I think we all need to be more honest in our thinking about diets. That means we have to be more scientific.
> 
> ...



Again, even thought we don't support fad diets, does not mean we are encouraging people to stay at a some weight. If a fat person want to go to a gym and lose weight, I have no problem with that, specially if they have health issues!

And, as TraciJo67 stated "those who *can* move, and are strong, and have no co-morbidities related to weight -- why would they need to make changes?"

If you dealing with people who are start to execrise after a really sedentary lifestyle, are you really going to start them on the hard stuff first, or are you going to build them up to it. 

We have doctors and diet experts on both sides of the debate, on wheither it's excess fat or fitness and what you eat that effects your health. However, you should note that we agree on everything else the doctors say on the issue of obesity. With the exception, on how much respect a fat person should get when look for medical care.


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## Mini (Mar 8, 2006)

moonvine said:


> http://www.naafa.org/documents/policies/dieting.html
> 
> I hope that answers your question.



Indeed it does. What an assical stance.


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## NFA (Mar 8, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Since when is a lively debate, considered disrespectful to other persons opinions!



When it becomes moralizing and dismissive of other views. As the weight loss debate ALWAYS turns into when its promoters seek out forums that are safe for different opinions and insist it cease being so. When people express their outrage and disbelief that someone would hold a different opinion than them. When people insist on personalizing the difference of opinion into some manner of human rights abuse. As always with discussions about weight loss, one opinion has been deemed unacceptible. Therefore no discussion of the issue can ever honestly be called merely a lively debate. There will always be those who insist on attacking the moral character of those who promote fat acceptance and who will not tolerate any disagreement with dieting as being anything but an attack on their human rights. People who believe in fat acceptance have a right to spaces that are free from size-negativity. I'm not surprised at all that some feel we have no such right, but that doesn't make it any more right.


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## NancyGirl74 (Mar 8, 2006)

Unless you have lived as a fat person (and I mean more than a few pounds overweight) you are not in a place to know where we are coming from. This site claims to be about acceptance...fat acceptance to be specific. Well, how about individual acceptance? If Bird of Beauty wants to be healthier who here has the right to tell her otherwise? I don't think there is anyone who is qualified to do that. I also don't think any overweight person here should feel embarrassed or ashamed to say that they are losing weight. How ironic that we are made to feel that very same way in the "outside world" for being fat in the first place. Ironic because this is the place we come for sanctuary from such cruelty. 

Beauty, diet or don't diet but please, please, please don't let someone else's personal preferences dictate how you choose to live your life. From one "dieter" to another, good luck and be proud to be who you are and who you want to be. 


_To be yourself --
in a world which is doing its best, night and day, 
to make you like everybody else 
means to fight the hardest battle
which any human being can fight,
and never stop fighting.
~e.e. Cummings_


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 9, 2006)

NFA said:


> When it becomes moralizing and dismissive of other views. As the weight loss debate ALWAYS turns into when its promoters seek out forums that are safe for different opinions and insist it cease being so. When people express their outrage and disbelief that someone would hold a different opinion than them. When people insist on personalizing the difference of opinion into some manner of human rights abuse. As always with discussions about weight loss, one opinion has been deemed unacceptible. Therefore no discussion of the issue can ever honestly be called merely a lively debate. There will always be those who insist on attacking the moral character of those who promote fat acceptance and who will not tolerate any disagreement with dieting as being anything but an attack on their human rights. People who believe in fat acceptance have a right to spaces that are free from size-negativity. I'm not surprised at all that some feel we have no such right, but that doesn't make it any more right.



Thanks! But I should also point, that as a person who believe in fat-acceptance should also have the right to defend myself in cases of being attacked by size-negativity.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 9, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> Unless you have lived as a fat person (and I mean more than a few pounds overweight) you are not in a place to know where we are coming from. This site claims to be about acceptance...fat acceptance to be specific. Well, how about individual acceptance? If Bird of Beauty wants to be healthier who here has the right to tell her otherwise? I don't think there is anyone who is qualified to do that. I also don't think any overweight person here should feel embarrassed or ashamed to say that they are losing weight. How ironic that we are made to feel that very same way in the "outside world" for being fat in the first place. Ironic because this is the place we come for sanctuary from such cruelty.
> 
> Beauty, diet or don't diet but please, please, please don't let someone else's personal preferences dictate how you choose to live your life. From one "dieter" to another, good luck and be proud to be who you are and who you want to be.
> 
> ...



I couldn't say it better!


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## HereticFA (Mar 9, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I have made the decision to lose weight. Before I get nasty responses let me tell you my situation. I am a 21 year old female who wears a size 32 pants on a 5' 8'' frame. I don't have any weight/health complications...YET..So I decided to lose the weight before something drastic happens with my health.


Hi "Beauty". I'm sorry I added to the derailing of your thread. 



Bird of Beauty said:


> I am writing this post to ask people (who have started to lose weight) what are some of the foods they eat for breakfast and for snacks. I know this sounds like a dumb question but I don't know which breakfast foods are healthy (if any at all). And all of the stuff I eat as snacks I KNOW aren't healthy...
> 
> If anyone can post with their success (and failures) that would be great...
> 
> Thanks!


For breakfast I usually have the equivalent of about one half to three quarters of a cup of some whole grain product (a couple of slices of dry toast from 12 grain bread or a cereal like those from Kashi) with a six ounce cup of coffee. That usually holds me until lunch. Years earlier I used to eat the prepackaged instant oatmeal. I believed since they were low fat they would be good for me. They had enough fiberless carbs and sugar that it didn't keep me from getting hungry and I had to have at least one snack before lunch.

I try to have one candy bar per day. I'll try to have either a Hershey's with Almonds or an Almond Joy. (Of course, I don't always succeed in either the selection or quantity.) The rest of my snacks I try to limit to as low in fat, carbs and sugar and as high in fiber as I can find (or tolerate). I find a one ounce bag of Doritos works pretty well. If a snack leaves me hungry twenty to thirty minutes after I eat it, it usually has too little fiber or too many carbs or too much sugar. 

I didn't get to being able to eat like this all at once. I've made numerous changes over the years. Most of the changes at first were slowly reducing the salt, fat content and sugar to the absolute minimum where I found the food palatable. As I did that, I discovered a lot of the foods were being overpowered by the sugar and salt. Think of salt and sugar like a loud noise. It can leave your taste buds too deaf to "hear" more subtle flavors.

I personally have a militant aversion to anything produced for use as a diet product. Anything that's an artificial sweetener or a synthetic food I refuse to use - with specific exceptions. I'll use the "pink" sweetener (Saccharin) for iced tea only because it dissolves fast. Since I seldom drink tea these days, it's not an issue. The Kashi cereals are another exception as they are simply a collection of naturally occurring grains. I almost didn't try the one I use the most due to it's name: GoLean. I selected it solely by it's nutritional information. I still avoid protein drinks, candy-like protein or energy bars and that ilk. 

Offhand, I recommend using one philosophy as your guide: advertising. But use it in reverse. Just remember that advertising is used to encourage you to buy things that are either overpriced or bad for you. It's up to you as a consumer to set your own agenda and buy only what you need and what is good for you.

One other thing, start "passive exercise". That just means removing some of the "conveniences" in your life. Park at the end of the parking row farthest from the store you're going to. When in a store, walk around the entire store at least once, even if you only need something at the checkout stand. Carry your purchases to your car, don't roll them out in a cart. At home, don't sit all the time. Get up and walk at least every thirty minutes. Don't let anyone go and get something for you. Get it yourself. When sitting, learn to fidget. Move your legs since your legs have the largest muscle groups in the body. Move your torso since that is where your body's "core" is located. Just don't sit still. (And don't eat in front of the TV.)

While none of this will probably let you be "average" weight, it will help you become a little healthier. You may also lose some weight or at least stop gaining.


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## HereticFA (Mar 9, 2006)

tres huevos said:


> 1. Eat a variety of REAL food, until you're full, ...


I agree with most of what you said except this. "Full" is a moving target. Always eating until we're full appears to induce hypertrophy of the stomach. We should usually eat to relieve hunger, not to get full. The difference between those two thresholds can be from 1000 to over 5000 k/cal per meal. I now try to reserve getting full to the usual "feasting" type meals during the holidays.



tres huevos said:


> The prime cause of diabetes II today is high fructose corn syrup, found in most sodas, store-bought sweets, etc.


While high fructose corn syrup is a significant contributor, I suspect the replacement of fats in foods with carbohydrates during the '90's is another significant contributor. Don't forget that Type 2 Diabetes is actually somewhat of a defense mechanism by the body to defend the cells against being over nourished. It starts with insulin resistance and eventually progresses to full blown Type II Diabetes.


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## HereticFA (Mar 9, 2006)

moonvine said:


> There is such a space for discussion at Dimensions Magazine already. I am not sure why people insist that every fat acceptance board tolerate it.



The closest space is the WLS Controversy board. Some will avoid that board just due to the name. 



moonvine said:


> Personally, I think it is extremely selfish to insist that fat acceptance boards accept and tolerate diet talk. I don't care what other people weigh or don't weigh. What I do hope for is a few safe spaces within the fat acceptance community where I don't have to hear about dieting.
> 
> By the way, fat for me is no fantasy. It is my reality. I have no fantasies whatsoever about fat or about fat people.



Unfortunately there is no safe space for so many fat people due to health problems. Sometimes I think about all the fat friends and lovers who have health problems associated with weight or have died. Of course the first few that died I didn't believe were due to their weight. After it happens five or eight times, maybe it's time to admit a slight association with their weight. When you see several lose weight and also lose their health problems, it's damned hard to overlook. At a minimum, it's intellectually dishonest. That's where I say the fantasy aspect comes in. So many in the Fat Acceptance areas spend so much energy trying to create an artificial environment where supposedly weight has no bearing on a person's health. If you admit that it does, then that leads to more questions and discussions that challenge that fantasy. 

There are too many people who have been told by some in the Fat Acceptance leadership that the health problems they were having (hypertension, Type 2 diabetes, joint pain, etc.) would not be improved by losing weight so why even try. That is where the selfishness comes in. Someone chose the political philosophy of fat acceptance over that person's well being. That philosophy of selfishness is extended by opposing any talk of successful weight loss (note that I don't say diet) in fat acceptance areas. The fact that so many continue to request that information shows how much of a need there is to help people learn their bodies and learn how to influence their weight. It shouldn't bee seen as an intrusion into the old school approach to Fat Acceptance. Instead, it should be seen as an opportunity for health activism. We have an opportunity to get people to accept that they probably won't be thin, just less fat. We can wean people from the garbage being sold as food. We can deny the diet Mafia of the money that feeds the beast. We can give someone an alternative to WLS. And most importantly, we can help a fat person get healthier. That seems like a win, win, win, Win, WIN situation to me. 



moonvine said:


> I practice a HAES approach and so far it is working for me.



Congratulations. I was astounded to see how much Lynn McAfee had lost with that method. 



moonvine said:


> However, if I ever decided I want to diet, which is about as likely as deciding that I want to slam my head into a brick wall repeatedly, I won't come here and talk about it. That would be rude. I would go to one of the many, many, many diet boards on the internet. Or to my financial board. Or to my couponing board. Or to my television board. Or to Dimensions Magazine. What I wouldn't do is go to a fat acceptance site. Sheesh.


 Would you talk about any other health issues here if they were generally accepted to be weight related? Trouble regulating blood glucose, cancer or hypertension? How about plantar fasciitis or any other foot or joint pain? All aspects of being fat should be fair game for discussion on a fat acceptance board. I would have trouble with someone complementing someone who lost weight by saying they look better. I wouldn't have trouble with them discussing methods and affects on their health. There are infinite shades of gray in the world of fat acceptance. I don't join sites like Big Fat Blog since they are so monotonic and one sided. I've been there and done that, it's time to grow.


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## moonvine (Mar 9, 2006)

HereticFA said:


> The closest space is the WLS Controversy board. Some will avoid that board just due to the name.



Here I must apologize. I meant ABUNDANCE Magazine, not Dimensions Magazine. They have an entire forum devoted to weight loss, which is one of several reasons why I no longer post there. 





> There are too many people who have been told by some in the Fat Acceptance leadership that the health problems they were having (hypertension, Type 2 diabetes, joint pain, etc.) would not be improved by losing weight so why even try.



They may or may not be improved by losing weight. Since 95% of diets do not work, it seems to make much more sense to me to look for ways of improving health without losing weight. 



> Congratulations. I was astounded to see how much Lynn McAfee had lost with that method.



I am not doing it to lose weight (and in fact it is not a weight loss method). I am doing it to be healthy. To my knowledge I have not lost any weight doing it and don't anticipate losing any. It would at this point be pretty neutral to me if I did lose weight, other than that I would be more attractive to more men, and I would have to lose a very unrealistic amount of weight in order to be a size that would be attractive to the majority of men.



> Would you talk about any other health issues here if they were generally accepted to be weight related? Trouble regulating blood glucose, cancer or hypertension? How about plantar fasciitis or any other foot or joint pain? All aspects of being fat should be fair game for discussion on a fat acceptance board. I would have trouble with someone complementing someone who lost weight by saying they look better. I wouldn't have trouble with them discussing methods and affects on their health. There are infinite shades of gray in the world of fat acceptance. I don't join sites like Big Fat Blog since they are so monotonic and one sided. I've been there and done that, it's time to grow.



I don't have any of these problems, so I am not personally interested in them, but I don't care if people want to talk about them. As a recovering compulsive dieter, I find diet talk triggering. I don't ask for it not to be on my couponing boards, financial boards, cruise boards, blah blah blah. I don't think it is out of line at all to ask that it not be on a FAT ACCEPTANCE board, for Christ's sake.

Currently Big Fat Blog is MY *only* safe space on the *entire* Internet. I thank my lucky stars for it every day. If you don't like it or its mission, I am glad you don't join it. There are hundreds of web boards I don't like and thus don't join.


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## Donna (Mar 9, 2006)

> I don't have any of these problems, so I am not personally interested in them, but I don't care if people want to talk about them. As a recovering compulsive dieter, I find diet talk triggering. I don't ask for it not to be on my couponing boards, financial boards, cruise boards, blah blah blah. I don't think it is out of line at all to ask that it not be on a FAT ACCEPTANCE board, for Christ's sake.



But how accepting are we if we don't include those amongst us who wish to discuss healthy alternatives to dieting? Should we also exclude all talk of alcohol or drugs or shopping since those could be triggers to someone who struggles with those addictions?



> Currently Big Fat Blog is MY *only* safe space on the *entire* Internet. I thank my lucky stars for it every day. If you don't like it or its mission, I am glad you don't join it. There are hundreds of web boards I don't like and thus don't join.



I am glad you have that space you consider safe. I have one of those and since I found it, I thank the stars daily not only for the space but for the people who reside there. And as much as I love Dimensions, it isn't that place for me. The scope and citizenship here is too broad for that, just as I am sure it is too broad to be your safe haven.

I don't think anyone is asking you to change your mind on this subject. At least I know I am not.


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## moonvine (Mar 9, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> But how accepting are we if we don't include those amongst us who wish to discuss healthy alternatives to dieting? Should we also exclude all talk of alcohol or drugs or shopping since those could be triggers to someone who struggles with those addictions?



Well, it isn't just me, it is pretty much a core tenet of fat acceptance that dieting doesn't work, and I'm betting that the majority of fat people are either current or recovering compulsive dieters. Thus in my opinion (and of course it is only an opinion, and I don't run this board, so it is not for me to say) fat acceptance sites should not allow diet talk. 

In my understanding of the phrase "healthy alternatives to dieting" would not include attempts to lose weight, since attempting to lose weight == dieting. So healthy alternatives to dieting would not be weight loss talk and thus would not be discouraged or disallowed. If I ran a fat acceptance board, that's the way it'd be. 



> I am glad you have that space you consider safe. I have one of those and since I found it, I thank the stars daily not only for the space but for the people who reside there. And as much as I love Dimensions, it isn't that place for me. The scope and citizenship here is too broad for that, just as I am sure it is too broad to be your safe haven.
> 
> I don't think anyone is asking you to change your mind on this subject. At least I know I am not.



Well, really the only thing that is interefering with it being a safe haven for me is the diet talk. Not sure about for you or anyone else. I guess I will just have to be glad I have *somewhere* to go and not come here so much, since diet talk is triggering for me and I am not thrilled with seeing it on a site that purports to be about fat acceptance. 

I really need to donate to BFB, if it ever went away I wouldn't have any safe space at all.....

I so miss the old NAAFA boards..they did not allow diet talk and it was very nice....


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 9, 2006)

I would like to add my appologies for derailing this thread.

I am also sorry to if I made you feel unconformable. I sure hope that you eventually feel safer about come here.


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## HereticFA (Mar 10, 2006)

moonvine said:


> As a recovering compulsive dieter, I find diet talk triggering.



I thought after twenty five years of being involved with fat acceptance, I'd encountered most facets of being fat and reasons why people didn't want to lose weight. I'll have to admit I hadn't encountered any discussion anywhere about retriggering compulsive dieting except in the context of anorexia. (I'm assuming that's not where you're coming from. If it is, you have my condolences. I hope you don't replace one extreme eating disorder with another.) 

Most people I find militantly opposed to any discussion of weight loss do so for reasons of sexual preference (they're either an FA or FFA), political reasons or they're just being a contrarian to cover a desire to eat what they want and everything else be damned (think of a militant gourmand). 

I still don't support commercial diets. I only support a free exchange of information on how the nutrition in general and aspects of life affects the hunger/satiety cycle of different people with a specific goal of learning to influence each person's weight by learning their body's cues and without degrading their health. It's not a goal of achieving any specific BMI. 

As the parent poster of the original thread shows, there is a strong desire for most fat people to avoid health problems. Usually they have witnessed someone in their family develop serious health problems generally associated with being fat and they'd like to avoid those problems in their future. If you are one of the few folks that don't develop weight related health problems you should consider yourself very lucky and you should realize you are the exception to the rule. I'm one of the ones that develops hypertension around a BMI of 40 to 45. I was on meds for hypertension at about age 9, the same time I was about a BMI of 42 to 45.


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## HereticFA (Mar 10, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, it isn't just me, it is pretty much a core tenet of fat acceptance that dieting doesn't work, and I'm betting that the majority of fat people are either current or recovering compulsive dieters.


The factoid of "95% of diets fail" has been a very popular bit to cite in NAAFA and other fat acceptance circles for a long time. (It's one of the main reasons many fat people joined NAAFA: they were too burned out to try another diet and fail. It was easier to accept that they were different and get on with their life.) While fairly true for commercial diets, I now know too many people who have been successful at losing 50 to 150 pounds to continue to believe that it's impossible to lose significant amounts of weight.



moonvine said:


> I so miss the old NAAFA boards..they did not allow diet talk and it was very nice....


The NAAFA boards finally died? I thought NAAFA banned all the posters who did want to talk about alternatives to classic diets in order to provide a pure fat acceptance environment. What could have happened? Maybe it died due to a lack of diversity.


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## Vince (Mar 10, 2006)

To Moonvine. Your position was what a lot of women endorsed who belonged to NAAFA. Years ago on this forum at Dimensions many of us argued about what size acceptance was. You see, there were a few women contemplating WLS and many felt they were betraying the SA movement. It was pointed out that true size acceptance tolerated all sizes as acceptable. If that is so then it matters not if someone chooses to lose weight by whatever means they select. It is okay to be thin and it is okay to be fat. That is what true size acceptance means. So diet away if you want, go to a gym, or have surgery. It is your body. What NAAFA and Conrad saw were that WLS was an industry just like the diet and fitness industries are. There are huge risks associated with any kind of serious surgery. SA people felt it was their duty to point this out and warn fat people. However, the theories that diets fail is nonsense and you have many women on this board who were much larger but have lost significant bodyweight and kept it off. Unless those gals all 'cheated' and had secret WLS then diets do work for some weight loss.

The issue of whether you should have a site on line that forbids all diet talk is a personal one. NAAFA is on the decline partly because they stopped aiding fat Americans and concentrated on fat acceptance. That was a fatal mistake as everyone associated with that organization must accept. 

Do you read the forum on Dimensions to discuss WLS? If not then it is time they had a forum here to discuss all health issues including exercise and weight loss. For goodness sake they have a forum for fat people to discuss food. Why not one to discuss dieting and weight loss?


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## olivefun (Mar 10, 2006)

Moonvine, 
Seems that this is the only thread where we are talking about healthy weight loss, why don't you just unsubscribe from this one?

You can easily *unsubscribe* in your *User CP* preferences and then it won't trigger you. This can then go back to being your supportive zone, and you can pop in and contribute any place you like without fear of being taunted by talk of diets.


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## moonvine (Mar 10, 2006)

HereticFA said:


> I thought after twenty five years of being involved with fat acceptance, I'd encountered most facets of being fat and reasons why people didn't want to lose weight. I'll have to admit I hadn't encountered any discussion anywhere about retriggering compulsive dieting except in the context of anorexia. (I'm assuming that's not where you're coming from. If it is, you have my condolences. I hope you don't replace one extreme eating disorder with another.)
> 
> Most people I find militantly opposed to any discussion of weight loss do so for reasons of sexual preference (they're either an FA or FFA), political reasons or they're just being a contrarian to cover a desire to eat what they want and everything else be damned (think of a militant gourmand).



This is really interesting, because I have rarely heard anyone oppose discussion of weight loss for reasons of sexual preference. Maybe on the Weight Board, but I don't really hang out there. Certainly not on any of the mainstream fat acceptance boards (if such a thing can be said to exist). I'm not sure what political reasons exist for not wanting diet talk on boards. I would love to hear more about that. 

And now you've heard a discussion of retriggering compulsive dieting other than in the context of anorexia. I did have a flirtation with bulemia in college, but I think I considered forced throwing up after meals to be just another diet. It was about as effective as the rest of them, too.

The main reasons I know for not wanting to be exposed to diet talk on fat acceptance boards are (in no particular order). 1. We hear diet talk everywhere we go - at the office, on commercials, on other boards, at dinner, meetings, hell I have to hear about it when I go to Petco for adoption days. 2. We know that diets don't work and cause most people to regain more than they have lost, so we encourage people not to diet. 



> If you are one of the few folks that don't develop weight related health problems you should consider yourself very lucky and you should realize you are the exception to the rule. I'm one of the ones that develops hypertension around a BMI of 40 to 45. I was on meds for hypertension at about age 9, the same time I was about a BMI of 42 to 45.




Well, I don't weigh myself, but I am 5'4" and somewhere around 300. My blood pressure is consistently around 110/70. My 5'2", 98 pound mother has been on high blood pressure meds for years, so it is possible it may become high at some later date, but if it does I very seriously doubt that losing weight would help it, since mom is underweight per the Met Life height weight charts and has been all her life. 

At this point in my life the health condition I am *most* worried about is Alzheimers, since every woman in my family (both sides) has had it back for several generations. Very scary, that.


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## moonvine (Mar 10, 2006)

HereticFA said:


> The factoid of "95% of diets fail" has been a very popular bit to cite in NAAFA and other fat acceptance circles for a long time. (It's one of the main reasons many fat people joined NAAFA: they were too burned out to try another diet and fail. It was easier to accept that they were different and get on with their life.) While fairly true for commercial diets, I now know too many people who have been successful at losing 50 to 150 pounds to continue to believe that it's impossible to lose significant amounts of weight.



I know lots and lots and lots of people who have lost 50 to 150 pounds, and more. The failure rate is not that people cannot lose weight (and sometimes significant amounts). The failure rate concerns the 95% regain rate over 5 or more years. 



> The NAAFA boards finally died? I thought NAAFA banned all the posters who did want to talk about alternatives to classic diets in order to provide a pure fat acceptance environment. What could have happened? Maybe it died due to a lack of diversity.



They did not die. They went members only. I prefer an atmosphere which is not members only, which is why I hang out at BFB.

I enjoy this discussion, and would be happy to continue it with you via email. It seems that this discussion is becoming tiresome for some.


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## moonvine (Mar 10, 2006)

olivefun said:


> Moonvine,
> Seems that this is the only thread where we are talking about healthy weight loss, why don't you just unsubscribe from this one?
> 
> You can easily *unsubscribe* in your *User CP* preferences and then it won't trigger you. This can then go back to being your supportive zone, and you can pop in and contribute any place you like without fear of being taunted by talk of diets.



Because I am philisophically opposed to it being here. By the way, I don't consider dieting to be "healthy weight loss."


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## moonvine (Mar 10, 2006)

Vince said:


> To Moonvine. Your position was what a lot of women endorsed who belonged to NAAFA. Years ago on this forum at Dimensions many of us argued about what size acceptance was. You see, there were a few women contemplating WLS and many felt they were betraying the SA movement. It was pointed out that true size acceptance tolerated all sizes as acceptable. If that is so then it matters not if someone chooses to lose weight by whatever means they select. It is okay to be thin and it is okay to be fat. That is what true size acceptance means.




I don't know what size acceptance means, really. Thin people do not need any acceptance. They already have it. I am concerned with fat acceptance. If in the future thin people become unaccepted in society I will be glad to become their ally in a thin acceptance movement, but at this time it does not appear to be needed. 



> Do you read the forum on Dimensions to discuss WLS? If not then it is time they had a forum here to discuss all health issues including exercise and weight loss. For goodness sake they have a forum for fat people to discuss food. Why not one to discuss dieting and weight loss?



Well, other than that it is against the core tenets of fat acceptance, triggering for compulsive dieters, and not needed as there are millions of weight loss sites all over the internet, including one for fat people to discuss weight loss at Abundance Magazine, I can't think of too many reasons why there shouldn't be one here.


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## Vince (Mar 10, 2006)

Moonvine you are entitled to believe what you want to believe. However, when you make statements about facts then those statements can be challenged. Weight-loss diets do work. Period. Almost all fat people know that. A person goes on a diet and loses 50 pounds. That person feels good and all that so he/she goes off the diet and gets back to living the way he/she did before. Now what can we predict about weight gain? Yes, the body will have experienced a near starvation state and will want to store energy so that it will have enough if starvation appears again. The hapless dieter gains weight and then gets all motivated and goes on another diet. The yo-yo cycle seems endless and many claim that the dieting process itself resulted in their being heavier than ever. 

If we ask why some people are fatter than others then we might shed some light on this whole business. We can do a long term study and measure all aspects of a population and then see what happens to individuals. We can measure food intake, energy expenditure, heredity, health, education, age, sex and all manner of factors that will impact on the study. Would we be able to predict ahead of time which individuals would be most likely to gain fat? I wonder. In a very short period of time we would see that some people were getting fatter than the others. The fat would deposit and these people would have a lot of trouble getting rid of that fat. 

This is exactly what exercise scientists do to determine what happens in populations re energy use and storage. The simple fact is that the people who get fat always use less energy than they consume. If they are relatively inactive then the rate of fat storage will accelerate. The fatter people become the less active they will likely be. We accept that some fat people are that way because of metabolic disorders. So we cannot be sure what exactly causes fatness unless we study individuals carefully.

To suggest that diets don't work is quite absurd. Oh, there are some professionals who insist that they don't work long-term. What the heck is that? They work but people tend to eat more than they need and hence they gain fat once more. There is nothing surprizing or magical about this process. Can we prevent fatness? Yes, but experience has proven that it is very difficult to get people to both monitor food intake and also continue to be active. It seems that lower class people might make poor choices about foods in their diets and also not be able to afford to go to exercise classes and gyms. There have been plenty of people writing about the fattening of America and other wealthy countries like Australia. I personally have not seen that many really fat people in Australia but I guess the trend is for working class people to be fatter than middle class people. 

So what are you going to do? Believe what NAAFA and a few others tell you? I recommend studying nutrition and make up your own mind. That you do not have any health issues at about 300 pounds doesn't mean you are going to be okay. That is a lot of weight to carry around. I am about 80 pounds lighter than you and have bigger muscles. I get tired quite easily just walking around. How anyone manages who weighs 400 or more pounds amazes me. That is a heavy burden to carry around. If some of these people are worried about their health and longevity then I can't think of anything more important to them than energy management and fitness. We have one body that we live in. That is it. We can do something about our abode. If we do not keep it in good condition it tends to atrophy and fall apart. I think anyone reading the forum over a period of time will hear about all manner of troubles and illness that many fat people suffer. 

I respect those who do not want to talk about weight-loss diets. I have not given any specific advice about nutrition. Others have and that is their choice. I believe only professionals in nutrition should give that advice. Dietitians are those professionals. One of the things that amazes me about knowledge is how much of it there is out there to learn. Goodness me go to a university library and see the stacks of books there. There are heaps of resources on line, too, and medical references and research can be accessed. There really is no excuse not to be informed today about whatever interests you or is important in your life. 

There have been a lot of earnest posters in this thread who are very supportive of those who want to do something about their bodies be it become more healthy or lose fat. That indicates to me that the majority would approve of having a weight-loss and exercise forum. Those who dislike that can ignor it. That way it is the best of both worlds.

Fat acceptance has no philosophical standing whatever. It cannot be justified on ethical or social grounds. Oh, the admirers like the ladies to be large. Many would be disappointed if loved ones lost a lot of weight and size. I have said it before and I will say it again. The vast majority of fat people do not accept their fat. They are unlikely to ever accept their fat. Society does not accept fatness and is unlikely to ever do so.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 10, 2006)

You ever get the feeling of deja vu? 

Anyway, the point is that if you are happy the way you are then you shouldn't worry about dieting. More power to you! 

However, if you are one of those people who is having health problem, because of your weight, well no diet I know of, doesn't a better job, that more exercise and being senseable with what you eat!

I know, some people here want to bad mouth NAAFA and the whole size acceptance movement because of their policy on diets. And, they don't believe that we will ever see fat acceptance in our life time. Well, it's this kind of thinking that stopping us from being accepted tomorrow. And, I call on everyone to use it as a call of action, and continue our fat for acceptance.


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## Vince (Mar 10, 2006)

NAAFA's strength was to lobby for the end of discrimination against fat people. It should not be okay to make jokes about fat people. It should not be okay to discriminate against people because of weight and size. Fat people should be able to get adequate and fair health insurance and coverage. Fat people should be accommodated in public places and on transportation without being made to pay more for that access. 

No one argues about fat discrimination and we all would like to see an end to this unfairness. However, fat acceptance is a different thing entirely because it involves attitudes, beliefs and feelings. Will there be a movement towards fat acceptance? I wonder. There are many who had hoped and hoped but little or nothing has changed since NAAFA was formed many decades ago. Why is this? Why is fat acceptance not happening? Size acceptance is quite another thing and overlaps with fat acceptance. The problem is that just about everyone believes that fat people are partly responsible for the way they are. Instead of accepting them most people feel they should do something about their size and weight. That is what will always stop fat people from being accepted. If you listen to most fat people they hate living in fat bodies. Oh, you won't hear those negative sentiments around here. Why is it that almost 100% of all people who make huge weight loses are pleased with the result? Why do they say they feel better and are happier? Every single person who says those things is nailing the lid tightly shut on fat acceptance.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 10, 2006)

I feel sorry those who has yet found acceptance in the world or in themselves, but that is not grounds to abandon the fat acceptance movement. In all logic, that is grounds to support the movement more that ever. 

Yes, if you listen to the media as a whole, yes you mostly get the feeling that fat acceptance is going nowhere. But, if you look at the rest of the world we have made more progress. Just ask the people at a plus size party, or go to one of the (pro-fat) off-broadway plays in Toronto, New York, London and San Fransico. You can even ask Carolyn Dunn, CNN reporter or Mike Duffy who has is own newshow here is Canada! Or Queen Latifah or Monquie who are making there names in Hollywood and on Cable TV. Or you ask the number of local news reporters on the TV. 

Just ask the mid-sized people who now have a better selection of clothing to wear. 

How about you ask all the fat people, in business suits running into the office, if the fat acceptance movement did anything for them. Ask the ones that still look of an employee to accept them, if fat acceptance. 

It might be slow but the world view of fat people can be changed, and is changing. The only way we can fail, is not to believe in the cause. 

Yes, there are people who still need to find acceptance, but it's a work in progress. 

People need to find acceptance in yourself, before you can find acceptance in the world.


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## ellyn (Mar 11, 2006)

Just my newb suggestions; but I noticed an improvement in my overall health when I got more exercise and ate more whole foods. I haven't lost weight (wasn't really trying to), but I feel better and no longer have some pesky issues, like pain from an old back injury, and pointless fatigue all the time.

Strengthening up my muscles did a world of good, allowing my body to carry my weight with more grace. My blood pressure, cholesterol and other blood work have improved, just with walking and swimming. Fun activities like that, shared with my SIL and friends.


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## RedHead (Mar 11, 2006)

I just read the last two pages of this thread...wow, wow, wow. I even found myself agreeing with some of what Vince shared.

I still strongly believe...probably just as strongly as Moonvine that there is a place on this board for those who want to eat more healthy, excercise more or just excercise for the first time or diet (defined by - changing your eating habits to lower your caloric intake in order to shed fat)

Moonvine...I have to disagree with you about "skinny people are already accepted"....where in the world did you get that idea? There is no magic acceptance because you are a size 7....perhaps you have crooked teeth, perhaps your eyes are the wrong color, perhaps you smoke, perhaps you were not born in the "good" part of town, perhaps you are poor.....acceptance in this world is not about your weight...*it is about appearences initially; but also how you present yourself to the socialized structure that is your personal world made up by myriad of people who are from numerous backgrounds, body shapes....etc*

Also you said something about the health...I will tell you this with out a doubt. I WOULD NOT BE ALIVE RIGHT NOW HAD I NOT DONE SOMETHING AS DRASTIC AS WLS. Now I am the exception to the rule...certainly not the rule. But I found out during my initial testing that I had 30% fatty tissue infiltration into my major organs. I didn't feel bad, I honestly thought that other than my leg/infection that I was healthy.

Protect yourself from falling into any temptation with compulsive dieting...you know what I do so I don't drink...I just don't do it. I'm not trying to be mean...really I'm not. I just think that you have taken a line of reasoning that is not reasonable.

Peace!


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 11, 2006)

ellyn said:


> Just my newb suggestions; but I noticed an improvement in my overall health when I got more exercise and ate more whole foods. I haven't lost weight (wasn't really trying to), but I feel better and no longer have some pesky issues, like pain from an old back injury, and pointless fatigue all the time.
> 
> Strengthening up my muscles did a world of good, allowing my body to carry my weight with more grace. My blood pressure, cholesterol and other blood work have improved, just with walking and swimming. Fun activities like that, shared with my SIL and friends.



This is exactly what I am saying! 

Congradulations Ellyn. On your new health.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 11, 2006)

RedHead said:


> I just read the last two pages of this thread...wow, wow, wow. I even found myself agreeing with some of what Vince shared.
> 
> I still strongly believe...probably just as strongly as Moonvine that there is a place on this board for those who want to eat more healthy, excercise more or just excercise for the first time or diet (defined by - changing your eating habits to lower your caloric intake in order to shed fat)
> 
> ...



Well, I am glad that you are do good now. 

I hope this is not too cornball, but tt is my hope that we can all share these boards in peace. No matter if you are someone who is happy with their size or who need to to lost for health reason.


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## Vince (Mar 11, 2006)

What is odd is the way almost all the fat women here have to mention that they are NOT trying to lose weight. As if they are betraying the size acceptance movement if they do try to shed fat. Have a look on singles dating sites on line and notice that just about every woman who is larger than average will comment about how she is trying to shed some of that size. Why do they have to say that? Well, I guess they feel fat women are not attractive. Oh, most also say that men should look beneath the surface. It is what is on the inside that counts. I wonder how many fat women believe that?


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## Vince (Mar 11, 2006)

Etobicoke. How I hate the name of that place. I used to live in Toronto and knew it was part of the city to the west. It is derived from the native language in the area but the locals soon changed it to sound so un-native. Or is that first nation now?

I wonder if calling oneself a FA is doing the movement any good? Of course that is your Dim name and doesn't define you elsewhere. I so dislike all those names used on line. Sort of grates me that many need a name when they already have one. So many in the closet in layers! They come out of one but are still invisible!

By the way, you sure you aren't a preacher or something? Just wondering by the way you have this zeal for fat acceptance. You know, I would prefer to come to Dimensions and interact with others and never mention fat or acceptance or any of that stuff. We have been doing that for a long time on line and nothing much has changed. Oh, yes, Russell got them to put a few armless chairs here and there and some activism made some car companies install longer seat belts. I can't say much else has happened. 

Wouldn't it be nice to talk about going to the gym without all that loading of fat acceptance and whether we should even be talking about it. I mean, are we nuts? Something is seriously wrong when people lobby for a forum where that sort of thing is unwelcome. Oh, I know some need an oasis on line. I guess being around guys who worship fatness might help a bit. It might give fat women a distorted idea of what guys are like. Not sure being around them is a good thing at all. Having a go at discussing issues is a healthy thing because that is the only way anyone is going to learn new things and perhaps change one's uninformed or erroneous beliefs.


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## Rosie (Mar 11, 2006)

Sandie S-R said:


> Dimensions is a fat acceptance site (a place where we celebrate BBWs), therefore we do not advocate nor promote dieting for weight loss.



And to hell with the health implications of being fat, eh? Perhaps this site should post a big warning to all that we're ONLY accepted here if we're happy being fat and unhealthy!


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 11, 2006)

I have lived both sides of this issue. For most of my adult life, I was significantly overweight. For the last 5-6 years, I was very significantly overweight. If I were to chart my cycle of weight loss and gain, it would look like an EKG spike; only, the lines would be steadily marching uphill. I dieted myself right up to 300 lbs. I use food as a coping mechanism, and there is an element of compulsiveness to my eating habits. What that meant for me was a steady diet of whatever I wanted to eat, in whatever quantities, and that was a whole lot of junk. One day, I'd wake up and think, _I can't go on like this. _ I hated my body, and as I aged, I despaired that I was becoming less mobile; I creaked & winced in pain when I walked, just like my mother does. I couldn't sleep well - not only could I never get comfortable, I had sleep apnea and would stop breathing & wake myself up many, many dozens of times throughout the night (lucky for me, I always woke up, since this went undiagnosed until I was required to do a sleep study by my insurance company, prior to WLS). Finally, I wanted desperately to be a mother, and I knew that my excess body fat was causing the hormonal imbalance that prevented me from getting pregnant. I knew it before I gathered up the courage to have myself tested, and my gynecologist confirmed it. That, more than anything, is why I hated my fat body. There are several moments in my life when I committed to a diet & an exercise regime, and for months -- sometimes, many months -- I would exist in a punishing regiment of severe caloric restriction. At one point in my late 20's, I lost nearly 100 pounds. In my early 30's, I gained every pound of it back, plus a bonus 50. 

So yes, to Vince. I'm one of those (formerly) fat women that you've discussed; a woman who was desperately unhappy with her size, and wanted to lose weight. I agree with everything that you've said regarding diet & nutrition, but I don't believe that every fat person is unhappy with his/her size. You aren't suggesting that, are you? I've seen evidence to the contrary ... right here, at Dimensions  

Moonvine - To me, it didn't seem that you were challenging the notion that making healthier food choices (defined by many as dieting) would result in weight loss. It seemed that you were saying that eventually, 95% of people who lose weight, gain it all back - plus some. My life is testament to that. To that end, I agree with NAAFA -- dieting doesn't work, at least, not over the long haul. I would challenge that 95% figure, mostly because I've seen many smaller people shed 15-30 pounds and keep it off longer term. But I have never seen a very significantly heavy person do so. 

For me, a return to 'more of the same' dieting would never have worked. I'd gotten so accustomed to eating very large portions & snacking all day. It was excruciating to me, reducing my calorie intake and being hungry all the time -- and having the means and access to the tasty goodies that came to mean so much more to me than mere nourishment. I equated it to dying of thirst while floating in an ocean of salt water; knowing that to succumb would just bring about an earlier demise, but ohhhh the agony of dehydration  I understand how difficult -- impossible, really -- dieting is. 

But here's the kicker: What do you do when your health is failing you, when you feel like you're dying with every step you take (or that feeling of sad resignation, when your body fails you so spectacularly and you are unable to live the life you want to anyway)? I believe that our bodies reach a threshhold point, and once surpass it, we begin to fail. For some of us, that is 200 pounds; for others, it may be 400. And as we age, what was once acceptable will become more difficult to bear. 

I want to be sure to say, I am NOT suggesting WLS. I think that should be an option of very last, desperate resort. I just think that here, in a forum of size acceptance - a forum that attracts women of size - I think we should feel free to discuss the realities of our state of health, and options for improving it. To me, a resigned shrug (after all, dieting doesn't work!) and a rah-rah cheer of "Fit at ANY SIZE!" is not only impractical -- it is outright dishonest, and dismissive of those of us who cannot be. 

I cannot say that I will not return to a weight that is unhealthy to me. My personal history is marked by failed attempts. My formerly fat body is testament to my years and years of yo-yo dieting. My metabolism is now so destroyed that I must exercise rigorously in order to resist weight gain -- while consuming an amount that would, for most women, be a weight loss regimen. But I will not succumb without a fight. I'm not going to live a life of quietly desperate resignation. Not anymore.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 11, 2006)

Vince said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to talk about going to the gym without all that loading of fat acceptance and whether we should even be talking about it. I mean, are we nuts? Something is seriously wrong when people lobby for a forum where that sort of thing is unwelcome.



Vince, you've been around awhile. I don't remember if you were around then, but do you remember years ago the ration of shit I got because I started working out in a gym? I made it very clear that it had nothing to do with weight loss (there goes that "reassurance" that I won't shed those juicy pounds of adipose tissue), but because I needed to be stronger, have more stamina and flexibility in order to chase around my (then small) children. It was unbelievable, the crap I was subjected to. So I believe that the SA position has "loosened up" over the years, because at least now we're talking about eating healthy (another thing I was verbally abused for) and movement for their health benefits and not weight loss.

Funny how in some ways times change, and in some ways they don't, isn't it?

What I will never understand is why anyone would want anyone else to live in a body that makes them miserable. I will never understand that.


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## olivefun (Mar 11, 2006)

If I want to be fat or thin, does it really matter?

Or well meaning friends and relatives want us to lose weight and our feeder friends want us to gain.

I have been way fatter and way thinner. I like myself now and at each of the other places where I am. Now at 310 or so, I like it.

I enjoy swimming and so I do that when I can.

My best friends assume I am smart and aware enough to judge for myself what is best for me and want to support whatever I do. This includes putting weight on or even taking it off.

In the interest of community, I want to do the same for our other friends here and share my personal experiences with those that are interested in my perspective.

I can only offer what I have experienced myself and hope it is welcomed in the spirit that it is given.

Olive


:bow:


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 11, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> I have lived both sides of this issue. For most of my adult life, I was significantly overweight. For the last 5-6 years, I was very significantly overweight. If I were to chart my cycle of weight loss and gain, it would look like an EKG spike; only, the lines would be steadily marching uphill. I dieted myself right up to 300 lbs. I use food as a coping mechanism, and there is an element of compulsiveness to my eating habits. What that meant for me was a steady diet of whatever I wanted to eat, in whatever quantities, and that was a whole lot of junk. One day, I'd wake up and think, _I can't go on like this. _ I hated my body, and as I aged, I despaired that I was becoming less mobile; I creaked & winced in pain when I walked, just like my mother does. I couldn't sleep well - not only could I never get comfortable, I had sleep apnea and would stop breathing & wake myself up many, many dozens of times throughout the night (lucky for me, I always woke up, since this went undiagnosed until I was required to do a sleep study by my insurance company, prior to WLS). Finally, I wanted desperately to be a mother, and I knew that my excess body fat was causing the hormonal imbalance that prevented me from getting pregnant. I knew it before I gathered up the courage to have myself tested, and my gynecologist confirmed it. That, more than anything, is why I hated my fat body. There are several moments in my life when I committed to a diet & an exercise regime, and for months -- sometimes, many months -- I would exist in a punishing regiment of severe caloric restriction. At one point in my late 20's, I lost nearly 100 pounds. In my early 30's, I gained every pound of it back, plus a bonus 50.
> 
> So yes, to Vince. I'm one of those (formerly) fat women that you've discussed; a woman who was desperately unhappy with her size, and wanted to lose weight. I agree with everything that you've said regarding diet & nutrition, but I don't believe that every fat person is unhappy with his/her size. You aren't suggesting that, are you? I've seen evidence to the contrary ... right here, at Dimensions
> 
> ...



TraciJo67,
Your experience with weight loss is what I don't want to do...I've seen first hand experience of people not eating to lose weight..I don't want that. I've also seen people do the yo-yo diets and are in bad health..I want to eat healthier so I can enjoy life longer, and enjoy the things that I used to do.

Moonvine,
I don't equate losing weight as a diet...When I hear the word "diet" I think of someone who starves themselves and does a unrealistic amount of exercise, which I AM NOT trying to do...I want to eat more healthier yes, and go to the gym...What gives you the right to tell me or someone else for that matter, not to do that? There are some people who have too much fat on their muscles and I think I am one of them. If you like your body thats great..*BUT* there are people who don't like their body and want to change that. I want to change my body.

To All,
I am amazed how many comments/posts I have seen on this subject. I wasn't trying to embark a debate on weight loss, but I am glad to see the pros and cons as well as personal experiences from some of the posts.

Thanks
~Bird of Beauty~


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## Vince (Mar 12, 2006)

The sad thing about fat acceptance is that it is driven by testosterone. Admirers fancy fat women and many say the fatter the better. So a gal finds Dimensions and all of a sudden she doesn't have to apologize for being fat! What an amazing place. People here are so accepting. No matter what fat women look like they are all celebrated here. Well, that acceptance is conditional and many sense that because they have to not want to be seen to be trying to lose any size or weight. We end up with reverse hypocrisy. In real life fat women are apologetic for their size and here they are proud about it. What bothers me is that they seldom seem to be doing what they want to do. 

To answer Traci about this subject I would say that, yes, there are some fat women who love their bodies. I have met some who accept their bodies but ALL preferred to be not as large. There were no exceptions. The exceptions are feedees who are a peculiar lot and enjoy getting fatter but usually for a partner. 

What really upsets me is to see all the getting along and how great it is to be big and all that and then read how some are suffering. Really painful multiple chronic and actute illnesses. Some have associated mental problems. It is hardly a wonderful state to be for some. Mobility is reduced and when this happens the options are few to change body composition. If you cannot move much then what are you to do? Those who anticipate difficulties in the future and reduced health and fitness are wise to take preventative measures. If you do nothing then nothing will change. 

When I hear that expression about size acceptance not endorsing weight and fat loss I don't know what to say. I have argued long and hard about this business. Fat people are suffering and they need help. They need the best help they can get and they need it now.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 12, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> Thanks you guys! All of your comments have been soooo helpful! The reason why I want to lose the weight is because some of my family members have diabetes and high blood pressure and I am at a greater risk of getting these than other people (my father is a diabetic and has high blood pressure). I'm also noticing that when I walk for an extended period of time I am getting tired and I don't like that feeling.....
> 
> ~Bird of Beauty~


 
At 54 years old and 431 pounds I know your concerns about health, high blood pressure and diabetes....

I myself don't have any of these ailments because, I don't use a lot of salt in my diet, don't eat a lot of sweets and I drink tons and tons of fresh water daily. Otherwise, I eat what and however much I want all day and I don't have any concerns about my health. 

Yes, I am 54 years old, but I only take one medication a day and that is a thyroid pill and that is it. 

You can eat lots of your favorite foods but just healthier. 

Remember, pasta turn into sugars in your system too. Eat all you want but stay away from high salt and sugar intakes and you should be just fine, and oh, stay away from sodas, there are many brands of fruit flavored waters on the market that are fat-free, sugar-free and calorie-free, not to meantion good old just plain water to drink.

I am healthy strong and don't have as many problems as many people my age, and not to meantion many of these people are so much smaller than I am too.

I drive for The Senior Services here and many of my clients have many ailments that I just don't have and it is because they don't eat proper ingredients in their foods.... 

Amounts don't enter into it at all, you can be BIG and HEALTHY too.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 12, 2006)

Vince said:


> Etobicoke. How I hate the name of that place. I used to live in Toronto and knew it was part of the city to the west. It is derived from the native language in the area but the locals soon changed it to sound so un-native. Or is that first nation now?
> 
> I wonder if calling oneself a FA is doing the movement any good? Of course that is your Dim name and doesn't define you elsewhere. I so dislike all those names used on line. Sort of grates me that many need a name when they already have one. So many in the closet in layers! They come out of one but are still invisible!
> 
> ...



Yes, Etobicoke is a English pronouncation of a first nation word. I picked to show some local pride. Like how people call use the word Dixie in their handles. Think of them as sort of a nickname, people use, when they want to be creative or their real name is too generic to use as handlle. 

However, I am a little confused on why, if you don't want to hear about fat acceptance are you on the Main Dimensions Board, and not just going to the lounge if you don't want to talk fat acceptance. Don't you know that on these boards the topic of Fat Acceptance, is going to come up? Isn't that like going to ACLU meeting and getting pissed off with all the talk about civil liberties. 

By the way, why are you even responding to threads about Fat Acceptance, if you don't want to talk about it? 

You are welcome to own opinions, but that doesn't get you the right to disrespect others. 

About my zeal for fat acceptance. That is what you have, when you believe in a cause! Just like you zeal to claim that fat acceptance is a fraud, like you stated in your last paragraph! 

And, as with any debate like this, each side with think that other is blind or basis to the facts.

However, I believe in this cause and I will always be a defender of the movement.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 12, 2006)

Ladyrose1952 said:


> At 54 years old and 431 pounds I know your concerns about health, high blood pressure and diabetes....
> 
> I myself don't have any of these ailments because, I don't use a lot of salt in my diet, don't eat a lot of sweets and I drink tons and tons of fresh water daily. Otherwise, I eat what and however much I want all day and I don't have any concerns about my health.
> 
> ...



Good point!


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 12, 2006)

moonvine said:


> There is such a space for discussion at Dimensions Magazine already. I am not sure why people insist that every fat acceptance board tolerate it.
> 
> Personally, I think it is extremely selfish to insist that fat acceptance boards accept and tolerate diet talk. I don't care what other people weigh or don't weigh. What I do hope for is a few safe spaces within the fat acceptance community where I don't have to hear about dieting.
> 
> ...


 
In many ways I do agree with you on this subject.

I have just recently accepted myself for the size that I am and I would rather not have to read about diet this and diet that...

I have tryed dieting but why? When I am healthy and I don't have any physical or medical problems, I don't need to read about such things on a forum that is supposed to be for FAT ACCEPTANCE.

I wanted to be a member of a site that is for just that, big fat people that love who they are and accept all others for just the same.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 12, 2006)

Vince said:


> Finally I agree with NFA. Well, one thing I have said before is that the statement "diets don't work" is literally false. It works in 5 % of people. Now why isn't NAAFA concentrating on those 5% and trying find ways to increase that percentage of successful dieters?


 
I'll take this one! "diets don't work" is very *TRUE*!

The reason that those dieter's are successful is because that *5%* are the people that only have 20 t0 50 pounds to loose. * What a crock! *


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## NancyGirl74 (Mar 12, 2006)

Ladyrose1952 said:


> I'll take this one! "diets don't work" is very *TRUE*!
> 
> The reason that those dieter's are successful is because that *5%* are the people that only have 20 t0 50 pounds to loose. * What a crock! *


I agree that diets don't work...for the most part. Fad diets are unsuccessful simply because they fade away like all fads do. However, diets that are lifestyle changes do sometimes work. They work because the person has made a choice to be aware of everything thing they put into their mouth every minute of every day for the rest of their lives. Most of us do not succeed at this because we don't have the patience for it. It takes constant and everlasting persistence. Frankly, it's a big old pain in the you-know-what. 

I also think the "diets don't work" theory is based on people who have lost weight and gained weight back no matter how much or how little they gained back. Any weight regained is seen as a failure. Personally, I don't think that is so. I know people who, after their weight reached an all time high, lost a great deal of weight and then regained some of it back. Despite gaining weight back they never again reached their highest weight marker. I think that should be viewed as a form of success instead of as a total failure.


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 12, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> They work because the person has made a choice to be aware of everything thing they put into their mouth every minute of every day for the rest of their lives.



Absolutely! 

Being hungry--all the time--can cause one to be irritable, depressed, angry, migraine-succeptable, and have a hair-trigger temper. Not a fun way to go through life when all you desire is to "look acceptable". It is also hard to sleep on an empty stomach.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 12, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> TraciJo67,
> Your experience with weight loss is what I don't want to do...I've seen first hand experience of people not eating to lose weight..I don't want that. I've also seen people do the yo-yo diets and are in bad health..I want to eat healthier so I can enjoy life longer, and enjoy the things that I used to do.



I can understand the sentiment, Bird of Beauty. In terms of diet & nutrition, I'm nobody's role model - nor would I want to be. 

I wish you the best of luck in your journey, wherever it may take you :bow:


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## HereticFA (Mar 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> This is really interesting, because I have rarely heard anyone oppose discussion of weight loss for reasons of sexual preference. Maybe on the Weight Board, but I don't really hang out there. Certainly not on any of the mainstream fat acceptance boards (if such a thing can be said to exist). I'm not sure what political reasons exist for not wanting diet talk on boards. I would love to hear more about that.



The political part came in with Fat is a Feminist Issue by Susie Orbach. A lot of the folks are still working from that playbook where any talk of weight loss is seen as surrendering Feminist ideologies. 

The undercurrent of sexual preference for fat bodies is what drives a lot of the leadership in Fat Acceptance. (This is no different from sexual preference for thin bodies driving a lot of society's anti-fat views.) Whether they are an FA or FFA, straight, bi, gay or lesbian, I've seen most of the allegiances in Fat Acceptance formed along bedroom lines. Sometimes it's only philosophical, other times it's in practice. (Instead of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, think of the two degrees of Fat Acceptance. A wise man once said that NAAFA was a family, and an incestuous one at that.) Most of the rank and file membership are oblivious to this (if they don't already support it) and only see the leadership "protecting" them from diet talk and those nasty doctors. It's what I refer to when I talk about the fantasy of Fat Acceptance. 

A lot of folks in Fat Acceptance work extremely hard to create a protected fantasy environment where any talk of weight loss is forbidden. That type of censorship shows an unwillingness or inability to debate facts or alternate viewpoints. These actions of NAAFA leadership (and many members) illustrate the philosophy of the oppressed becoming the oppressors. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=oppressed+become+oppressors
I hope this is just another phase in our movements growth but I fear it may represent the end, not just another step. I know it's a huge reason so many people left the Fat Acceptance movement. 

Personally, I've decided to listen to the voices of those who want to connect naturally with their bodies in the hope of losing a little weight and improving their health. Will they lose enough weight to be thin? Not likely, at least not without damaging their health over the long term. Will they postpone classic weight related health problems for awhile? Maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure, their health problems won't improve if they don't change something. 



moonvine said:


> And now you've heard a discussion of retriggering compulsive dieting other than in the context of anorexia. I did have a flirtation with bulemia in college, but I think I considered forced throwing up after meals to be just another diet. It was about as effective as the rest of them, too.


I may take you up on your offer of direct email (offered elsewhere in this message thread) since I'm intensely curious about the psychology behind compulsive dieting in the absence of other "goals" driving the behavior. (Gee, I wish we had a board here where we could discuss stuff like things that influence changes in eating. It just doesn't seem appropriate on the General Discussion Board of a Fat Acceptance site.)



moonvine said:


> At this point in my life the health condition I am *most* worried about is Alzheimers, since every woman in my family (both sides) has had it back for several generations. Very scary, that.



For most women, their greatest health worry is about breast cancer. Unfortunately the single biggest health issue for women is heart disease. You can't just focus on one health issue, they all apply and are all very scary.


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## HereticFA (Mar 13, 2006)

Vince said:


> Moonvine you are entitled to believe what you want to believe. However, when you make statements about facts then those statements can be challenged. Weight-loss diets do work. Period. Almost all fat people know that.



OK Vince, it's time for me to take the other side in the debate. Classic commercial diets do work, short term. It's the long term where most of the classic diets fail. The people I know that lost weight and have kept it off for over four to five years didn't do it with one of the classic commercial diets. Some may have modified some existing diet within limits to suit themselves. But by then it's not the diet being sold. Most have modified the diet to reduce the hunger they experience by changing either the composition or number of calories (and frequently both). All follow the philosophy that their dietary practice is a guideline, not a religion. If they drop it for a day or two, they'll return to it afterwards.



Vince said:


> A person goes on a diet and loses 50 pounds. That person feels good and all that so he/she goes off the diet and gets back to living the way he/she did before. Now what can we predict about weight gain? Yes, the body will have experienced a near starvation state and will want to store energy so that it will have enough if starvation appears again. The hapless dieter gains weight and then gets all motivated and goes on another diet. The yo-yo cycle seems endless and many claim that the dieting process itself resulted in their being heavier than ever.



The one thing I remember when I was put on a diet as a child was the hunger. Gnawing, painful hunger that left me distracted. And when I was allowed to eat, I was bound and determined to compensate more than sufficiently to avoid that pain and discomfort. But of course, the diet (and therefore my parents) didn't allow that much food so I would repeat the process again and again, three times a day for almost a month. Yes, I lost weight but eventually regained the thirty-six pounds I lost and quite a bit more over the coming years. Personally, I never understood why I needed to lose weight. It certainly wasn't because I wanted to, although I "adopted" my parent's goal to make them happy. So much for motivation on my part.



Vince said:


> If we ask why some people are fatter than others then we might shed some light on this whole business. We can do a long term study and measure all aspects of a population and then see what happens to individuals. We can measure food intake, energy expenditure, heredity, health, education, age, sex and all manner of factors that will impact on the study.



Ahh, the old "it's simple physics: less energy out than consumed results in weight gain" argument. As long as you ignore the conversion efficiency, you're right. However if one person's body digests and converts food to bloodstream nutrients more efficiently than someone else's', they will gain weight on the same food intake and energy expenditure. Add in more efficient conversion of stored energy (i.e., fat) to energy expended (i.e., muscle activity) and it gets even worse. Add in less muscle mass and you have someone that will be supersized - or beyond.

One of the emerging areas of obesity research is epigenetics. That's the interesting aspect where one's grandfather's genes will determine one's physical traits. It's been found that if a male is exposed to certain nutrients during puberty, their grandchildren will be overweight or obese. Whether this is by increasing secretion of insulin in response to nutrients, lowered muscle mass, or something else, I haven't found the information.



Vince said:


> Would we be able to predict ahead of time which individuals would be most likely to gain fat? I wonder.


I don't wonder. I know there are already discussions about selection of embryos to avoid those likely to be fat. 



Vince said:


> To suggest that diets don't work is quite absurd. Oh, there are some professionals who insist that they don't work long-term. What the heck is that?


It's some medical professionals recognizing people will not go around meticulously monitoring their energy conversions via diet and exercise with 1% accuracy. Since it would take approximately 0.000001% long term accuracy to accomplish that outside of the control loops of the body, the professionals are just being... professional. They recognize and accept there is a problem with the physiologic control loop of some people's bodies w/r/t nutrition and energy expenditure. 

Vince, I have a test for you. Lets replace the gas (petrol) tank in your vehicle with a rubber bag that stretches. Then cover up your gas gauge. You can only refill your "tank" based on calculations. The calculations are actually very simple. They are based on the average MPG (km/l) for all vehicles. Then simply calculate how much fuel to add based on your expected driving. The goal is to avoid running out of fuel or filling your rubber tank so much it expands and drags the ground. To suggest this approach wouldn't work is quite absurd. It is, after all, only physics. Besides, it's exactly what has been done with regards to dieting So It Must Be Right (tm).

<lots of other comments I wish I had time to remark on have been snipped>



Vince said:


> Fat acceptance has no philosophical standing whatever. It cannot be justified on ethical or social grounds.


So it should be socially acceptable to treat someone differently because they are fat? To deny them education, jobs or medical treatment? It should be ethical to take a fat person's money and sell them a weight loss system that has been shown not to work over the long term for the majority of customers (regardless of "why")?



Vince said:


> Oh, the admirers like the ladies to be large. Many would be disappointed if loved ones lost a lot of weight and size. I have said it before and I will say it again. The vast majority of fat people do not accept their fat. They are unlikely to ever accept their fat. Society does not accept fatness and is unlikely to ever do so.


I unfortunately have to agree 100% with everything in this passage.


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Moonvine...I have to disagree with you about "skinny people are already accepted"....where in the world did you get that idea? There is no magic acceptance because you are a size 7....perhaps you have crooked teeth, perhaps your eyes are the wrong color, perhaps you smoke, perhaps you were not born in the "good" part of town, perhaps you are poor.....acceptance in this world is not about your weight...*it is about appearences initially; but also how you present yourself to the socialized structure that is your personal world made up by myriad of people who are from numerous backgrounds, body shapes....etc*



I meant that they are accepted for their *size*. I have never heard of anyone looking at a size 7 and says "OMG look at that size 7 over there!" I have never heard of anyone looking into a size 7's cart and saying "Look at all that food, no wonder you are a size 7!" I have never heard of size 7's being discriminated against for housing, employment, etc STRICTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE A SIZE 7. If there are lots and lots of people being denied employment strictly because they are a size 7 I will be happy to be their ally.

No, acceptance in this world is not based completely on one's weight. Fat people still need a movement to not be marginalized, discriminated against, etc strictly because of their size, similar to the one African Americans needed back in the 60's.


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

Vince said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to talk about going to the gym without all that loading of fat acceptance and whether we should even be talking about it.



I've never heard anyone say that we shouldn't be talking about going to the gym. I love going to the gym, and I don't mind talking about it at all.


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Moonvine - To me, it didn't seem that you were challenging the notion that making healthier food choices (defined by many as dieting) would result in weight loss. It seemed that you were saying that eventually, 95% of people who lose weight, gain it all back - plus some. My life is testament to that. To that end, I agree with NAAFA -- dieting doesn't work, at least, not over the long haul. I would challenge that 95% figure, mostly because I've seen many smaller people shed 15-30 pounds and keep it off longer term. But I have never seen a very significantly heavy person do so.




Hi TraciJo!

I don't think that making healthier food choices, in and of itself, will result in weight loss. I think that *severely* restricting caloric intake and dramatically increasing physical activity will result in temporary weight loss. 

One of the things that fat acceptance freed me to do was make healthier food choices without regard to whether or not I would lose weight by doing so.

For example, a couple of years ago I made a New Year's Resolution to add more fruit to my diet. I thought I didn't like fruit so I made a point of trying different kinds, finding out what I did like, and incorporating it into my diet. I didn't do this with the aim of losing weight, which is good because I didn't lose any weight. 10 years ago it probably would have been a New Year's Resolution to lose weight, which would have ultimately failed and I would have ended up blaming myself. For me, my way is a lot healthier.

It is interesting that you mention that small amount of weight loss. I heard a doctor once say that 20-25 pounds was the most amount of weight it was reasonable to both lose and keep off and that it required eternal vigilance to do so. I wish I had a link, but I think it was on a tv program..


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

Mini said:


> Indeed it does. What an assical stance.



Thanks for calling my beliefs "assical". Quite nice of you that.


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

Bird of Beauty said:


> I want to eat more healthier yes, and go to the gym...What gives you the right to tell me or someone else for that matter, not to do that? There are some people who have too much fat on their muscles and I think I am one of them. If you like your body thats great..*BUT* there are people who don't like their body and want to change that. I want to change my body.



I have never (well, never that I recall) tried to tell someone else what to do with their body (by the way, I eat healthy and go to the gym myself - just not with the goal or result of weight loss). I have asked that weight loss not be discussed here, and that it be discussed in a more appropriate place. And that is ALL.


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## olivefun (Mar 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Thanks for calling my beliefs "assical". Quite nice of you that.




Is that a word?
I looked it up, and couldn't find it.
Maybe a typo?


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

HereticFA said:


> The political part came in with Fat is a Feminist Issue by Susie Orbach. A lot of the folks are still working from that playbook where any talk of weight loss is seen as surrendering Feminist ideologies.
> 
> The undercurrent of sexual preference for fat bodies is what drives a lot of the leadership in Fat Acceptance. (This is no different from sexual preference for thin bodies driving a lot of society's anti-fat views.) Whether they are an FA or FFA, straight, bi, gay or lesbian, I've seen most of the allegiances in Fat Acceptance formed along bedroom lines. Sometimes it's only philosophical, other times it's in practice. (Instead of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, think of the two degrees of Fat Acceptance. A wise man once said that NAAFA was a family, and an incestuous one at that.) Most of the rank and file membership are oblivious to this (if they don't already support it) and only see the leadership "protecting" them from diet talk and those nasty doctors. It's what I refer to when I talk about the fantasy of Fat Acceptance.



Is this true of ISAA as well? 

And yeah, I stay away from the sex stuff. One of many reasons I don't go to the conventions. I'm not sure how that is any different from all the sex stuff that goes on at Mensa, though. Most such groups are incestuous, I've found.



> A lot of folks in Fat Acceptance work extremely hard to create a protected fantasy environment where any talk of weight loss is forbidden. That type of censorship shows an unwillingness or inability to debate facts or alternate viewpoints. These actions of NAAFA leadership (and many members) illustrate the philosophy of the oppressed becoming the oppressors. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=oppressed+become+oppressors
> I hope this is just another phase in our movements growth but I fear it may represent the end, not just another step. I know it's a huge reason so many people left the Fat Acceptance movement.



I am thankful for these people. I don't equate "you can't discuss dieting here. Please discuss it somewhere more appropriate" with censorship. Censorship is generally a governmental action. I think a lot of us are tired of hearing alternate viewpoints, as we have heard them all. I'm not sure why it is necessary for us to hear them over and over and over and over again in a place that is supposed to be safe for us.



> One thing is for sure, their health problems won't improve if they don't change something.



If I had some health problems, I'd certainly be trying to make some changes (without dieting). Fortunately my physician is a HAES practitioner.




> (Gee, I wish we had a board here where we could discuss stuff like things that influence changes in eating. It just doesn't seem appropriate on the General Discussion Board of a Fat Acceptance site.)



Why not?





> For most women, their greatest health worry is about breast cancer. Unfortunately the single biggest health issue for women is heart disease. You can't just focus on one health issue, they all apply and are all very scary.



For me, the scariest are Alzheimers and Lou Gherig's disease. Most other stuff is more treatable.


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

olivefun said:


> Is that a word?
> I looked it up, and couldn't find it.
> Maybe a typo?




It is slang....


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## olivefun (Mar 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> It is slang....



What does it mean?


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## moonvine (Mar 13, 2006)

olivefun said:


> What does it mean?



"Assical?" The closest definition I can come up with is of or resembling an ass...asinine....ass-like....it isn't a complimentary word.


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## Vince (Mar 13, 2006)

Let me talk a bit about fat reducing exercise. I watched a few programs of the series The Biggest Loser and was surprized at the many unproductive exercises the trainers were using for fat people. Goodness me but I wouldn't give fat people those exercises. The whole program was ridiculous from that point of view. All that boxing and pushups and so on. Why would anyone recommend that for fat loss for large people? So, even though many watch those programs the information they might have picked up about what kind of exercise to do would be a mixed bag. Some of those activities would be fine but the majority would not suit large people. 

The same can be said about diets. There is so much misinformation out there about diets. I wonder if effective diets last because of the results or if the majority of uninformed people follow less than optimum advice? I have read about some of the diets that people follow and, again, I shake my head because they are not going to benefit like they think they will. 

Knowledge is hard to find re so many fields that sometimes you need an expert to tell you what to do. If you use your own resources you might be sorry. If you doubt what I am saying the have a look at various sites dedicated to various activities and see if there is any consensus about matters. Would you believe that people get really passionate discussing how to build up muscles most effectively? Well, they do and there are many groups who believe quite different things about how to go about it. If people are going to disagree about bodybuilding is it going to be any different when it comes to diet beliefs? Oh, bodybuilders read up on that subject, too. The blanket statement that 'diets don't work' needs to be analysed and some sense brought into this area because we might as well forget about studying this subject in university if that is true. It is patent nonsense and we should stop generalizing about matters of fact. 

This business of hunger is an important one. Why do people get so damned hungry? There is some research in this area. I recall that NAAFA had a research scientist posting on their forum several years ago. He finally abandoned the forum because of the attitude of people there. What a pity that was.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 13, 2006)

Yes, there is alot of misinformation on diets and execrise, and that is where common sense is suppose to kick in.

No the diet industry is a billion dollar industry, and most of them advertise with promises of quick, easy and simple solution. Taking avantage of the misinformation out there!

I will admit a couple of diets with work, but not without a good amount of execrise to go with them. Otherwise, you are wasting your time.


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## HereticFA (Mar 13, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Is this true of ISAA as well?


I don't know since I've not attended any of their functions. Judging from their materials when they started several years ago, they resembled a mini-NAAFA. Most of their materials were simply rewrites of existing NAAFA materials and philosophies. The ISAA's founder has a fairly average weight wife and he was about as fat as I used to be (BMI of about 35) when he started ISAA. I'm not sure if I have enough data points to establish any patterns with ISAA but it's a non-issue with me. I know ISAA doesn't support any philosophy of weight loss for any reason so they are out of the running within my current Fat Acceptance paradigm. It is interesting that a majority of their spokespeople or those "showcased" have been midsized. I wonder why?



moonvine said:


> And yeah, I stay away from the sex stuff. One of many reasons I don't go to the conventions. I'm not sure how that is any different from all the sex stuff that goes on at Mensa, though. Most such groups are incestuous, I've found.


Don't confuse overt and covert sexual affiliations. While they overlap, it's the covert affiliations that frequently guide people's actions. One straight female I know that was a major contributor to NAAFA once attended one of the fat feminist group conventions in San Francisco. She was initially well accepted until she let it slip that she was straight, just not narrow. After that, she got the cold shoulder for the rest of the event. 

Don't kid yourself that sexual preferences don't supply the undercurrent that guides a lot of philosophies and actions in Fat Acceptance. If you don't attend conventions you only experience Fat Acceptance vicariously thru the keyhole. You'll have your views shaped only by the self-censored newsletters or other communications put out by the organization. It took me several years to understand why a lot of things did (or didn't) happen in NAAFA. Once I finally attended NAAFA Conventions and Holiday Happenings, I figured out what drove the allegiances and a lot of stuff fell into place. 



moonvine said:


> I am thankful for these people. I don't equate "you can't discuss dieting here. Please discuss it somewhere more appropriate" with censorship. Censorship is generally a governmental action. I think a lot of us are tired of hearing alternate viewpoints, as we have heard them all. I'm not sure why it is necessary for us to hear them over and over and over and over again in a place that is supposed to be safe for us.


Censorship occurs at all levels: personal, organizational, and governmental. Only the governmental level is prohibited by the US Constitution. Everyone should be willing to tolerate listening to discussion of what does and doesn't work in losing weight because some fat folks are desperate to lose weight to improve their health problems. That alone is sufficient reason. The Fat Acceptance culture became very toxic because of the opposition to discussing weight loss with many who did lose weight FEARING to come to Fat Acceptance activities to see old friends. (I know one former Dimensions cover girl had this experience after losing about 150 pounds.) It's this anti-weight loss attitude that has to change. The medical community started using the "diets don't work" philosophy against us with the rise of WLS so by opposing discussion of things that affecting person's weight, you are helping push some towards WLS by denying them information that may help them improve their health. 

Besides, if you insist on only having a space that is free from any and all talk of weight loss, you won't consistently build skills necessary to debate new weight loss methods. You become an unskilled fat activist and therefore a liability to fat acceptance. I'd rather take the hard road and maintain the skills necessary to debate anyone in the medical community at any time. You never can schedule your best opportunities, you can only take advantage of them when they are presented. Insisting on the "safe space" approach fosters mental atrophy in exchange for emotional comfort.



moonvine said:


> Why not?


Because some will take it to sound too much like diet talk. (Plus, I was posting that tongue in cheek. I knew I should have used a "smiley")



moonvine said:


> For me, the scariest are Alzheimers and Lou Gherig's disease. Most other stuff is more treatable.


I was trying to illustrate that frequently what you fear and focus on frequently isn't what you get. You are much more likely to have cardiovascular disease. Too many in Fat Acceptance had your good health in their twenties but once into their forties, they got all the classic weight related problems as their endocrine system and joints aged. My SSBBW wife inherited her average weight mother's bad knees. The difference? She developed her knee problems twenty years earlier than her mother did. In Fat Acceptance we often talk about the absence or presence of health problems at one point in time. We neglect to consider overall time frames of the onset of weight related issues.


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## Bird of Beauty (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks 2 all! I've incorporated some of your ideas and I feel better... I drink 1.5 L of water a day...for lunch at school (I am a full-time college student) I go to the salad's area instead of the french fries area...(but they are soo good) and I usually try to get a chicken noodle salad or a chicken salad. The sweets area I know I still need work..I hear the cakes calling me...I know it sounds patheic but it's true!
Also hopefully I will be joining a gym in a couple of days..
Wish me luck!~
~Bird of Beauty~


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