# Burn and Ban



## chicken legs

With all the censorship going on..why dont we just have a good old book burning. Lets start with the Bible, Koran, The Color Purple, Harry Potter series, etc.

Seriously what is with the Sarah Palin wannabe's running around. We should preserve the Library just like we preserve, protect, and fight for our basic human rights.


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## Sugar

Is this really necessary?

Why on earth do you want to start another fight on another board? If you're out of stuff to do and you're bored I have suggestions. 

Not one single person posting in the threads that have been "problem" issues besides Loves said get rid of the library. 

Doing stuff like this just sets people back.



Plus...please don't compare some of the absurd stuff that sits in this library with works of word art. The people of dims are better than this.


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## chicken legs

Sugar said:


> Is this really necessary?
> 
> Why on earth do you want to start another fight on another board? If you're out of stuff to do and you're bored I have suggestions.
> 
> Not one single person posting in the threads that have been "problem" issues besides Loves said get rid of the library.
> 
> Doing stuff like this just sets people back.
> 
> 
> 
> Plus...please don't compare some of the absurd stuff that sits in this library with works of word art. The people of dims are better than this.



As someone who found this site because of its library, and kept coming back until I delurked, I feel it is highly important to keep it in tact. I enjoy the library for what it is and therefore will defend my right to read whatever I like.

For the record I never got a chance to put my 2 cents in ...in regards to the Library and the changes that have come to pass.


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## Sugar

chicken legs said:


> As someone who found this site because of its library, and kept coming back until I delurked, I feel it is highly important to keep it in tact. I enjoy the library for what it is and therefore will defend my right to read whatever I like.
> 
> For the record I never got a chance to put my 2 cents in ...in regards to the Library and the changes that have come to pass.



So because you like the library, you can start another fight? That makes ZERO sense and you know it. 

Just because you didn't get to "put your 2 cents in" doesn't mean it's OK to stir the shit pot. 

Seriously. :doh:


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## chicken legs

Sugar said:


> So because you like the library, you can start another fight? That makes ZERO sense and you know it.
> 
> Just because you didn't get to "put your 2 cents in" doesn't mean it's OK to stir the shit pot.
> 
> Seriously. :doh:



I started a thread to discuss Censorship, Book Banning, oppression, and how it seems to be leaking into area I am very found of. At this point the only one with a ladle and pot of chicken pasta is you. 

Seriously Sugar when was the last time you actually read a story in this area?


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## Sugar

chicken legs said:


> I started a thread to discuss Censorship, Book Banning, oppression, and how it seems to be leaking into area I am very found of. At this point the only one with a ladle and pot of chicken pasta is you.
> 
> Seriously Sugar when was the last time you actually read a story in this area?



It would seem to me that if you wanted to discuss censorship you'd bring it up in an adult fashion free of snark and overstatement.

I support the library. I also support cutting out all under aged characters as well as violence towards people, but that's just me. 

I personally don't read the stories. I do, however, look at the new posts area and this came up.

If you want people to take you seriously you may want to try not to be so over the top.


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## chicken legs

Sugar said:


> It would seem to me that if you wanted to discuss censorship you'd bring it up in an adult fashion free of snark and overstatement.
> 
> I support the library. I also support cutting out all under aged characters as well as violence towards people, but that's just me.
> 
> I personally don't read the stories. I do, however, look at the new posts area and this came up.
> 
> If you want people to take you seriously you may want to try not to be so over the top.



I'm not long winded nor do I have time to make extremely long posts with sidenotes...so get over it. I used examples that are easy to identify and it worked because it seems you got my point with extreme clarity.

The world is not peachy keen nor are the people who live in it. I like to see all sides of things. The stories, for good or bad, really helped me understand my FAism.


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## SocialbFly

I am glad they helped you chicken, but not all the stories fit all the people, i personally find many of them offensive and stay out of here, but that is why i choose to only come here when some of the people i know like GEF posts a story...

i know people have all sorts of kinks, that is everyones right...just sometimes i prefer to live in ignorance than know that someone wants to feed me til i die...

and that is my right...

now did you really want to discuss this, or just stir it up?


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## chicken legs

SocialbFly said:


> I am glad they helped you chicken, but not all the stories fit all the people, i personally find many of them offensive and stay out of here, but that is why i choose to only come here when some of the people i know like GEF posts a story...
> 
> i know people have all sorts of kinks, that is everyones right...just sometimes i prefer to live in ignorance than know that someone wants to feed me til i die...
> 
> and that is my right...
> 
> now did you really want to discuss this, or just stir it up?



I like my stores of information to be uncensored and neatly catorgorized. With that being said I have recognized that Dims has one of the best libraries for "Fat" erotica and it would totally suck to mess it up. There are many stories, that upon reading, that weren't my cup of tea too, but at least I got to see the idea of another and make a choice. Most times, I dont even make comments unless it really has effected me or if I read it a couples of times.

Fact is, for those who* are* into stories..know this area is being censored already. I often look for stories by the author or genre in other areas of the net and usually find more works. 

That brings me to another idea. A fiction area (Biographies and such) and more sub-forums for the Art area . I was reading MoniqueSSBBW WLS journey recently and thought that would add a nice touch to the Library. 

Anywho, if it comes down to blissfull ignorance and the same ole same ole...Ok thats cool..I enjoy that speed. However, from time I like to try something different.....BAM


By the by, its also cool that you support your friend.... especially when it makes you aware of something new.


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## mossystate

chicken legs said:


> That brings me to another idea. A fiction area (Biographies and such) and more sub-forums for the Art area . I was reading MoniqueSSBBW WLS journey recently and thought that would add a nice touch to the Library.



So, you are pissed off at some people, and you think it is cute to bring someone into this who has done nothing....nothing....to deserve such hate. Lash out at those who are participating.


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## chicken legs

mossystate said:


> So, you are pissed off at some people, and you think it is cute to bring someone into this who has done nothing....nothing....to deserve such hate. Lash out at those who are participating.



What in Gods name are you talking about. Lashing Out? To Monique? ... I appreciated that she shared her Experience in such way that even newbies can even understand and that brought me to the idea of adding a area in the Library so it wont get lost after the intial thread dies.


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## mossystate

chicken legs said:


> What in Gods name are you talking about. Lashing Out? To Monique? ... I appreciated that she shared her Experience in such way that even newbies can even understand and that brought me to the idea of adding a area in the Library so it wont get lost after the intial thread dies.



Because, nothing screams understanding a persons very painful...real...journey...like sticking their story amongst sexual fiction. And, wls talk is allowed one place...one. If any person has a legitimate need to read about such a journey, they can and will find it. If it dies where it is at...it would stay dead amongst the sexual fiction. Not sure how its being in the library would keep it alive...


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## Fascinita

chicken legs said:


> With all the censorship going on..why dont we just have a good old book burning. Lets start with the Bible, Koran, The Color Purple, Harry Potter series, etc.



This = good fantasy for people like me who hatez books. :eat2:

Please tell more! :smitten::smitten: 

What books would you burn next? 


If not chicken legs, please someone else write more about burning books! We are begging you, plez. :eat2::eat2::wubu:

PS - I think I would burn _Jonathan livingstone Seagill_ next :blush:


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## chicken legs

mossystate said:


> Because, nothing screams understanding a persons very painful...real...journey...like sticking their story amongst sexual fiction. And, wls talk is allowed one place...one. If any person has a legitimate need to read about such a journey, they can and will find it. If it dies where it is at...it would stay dead amongst the sexual fiction. Not sure how its being in the library would keep it alive. ..



To clarify and summerize my points thus far....I like a Uncensored, Well Catorgized, Well-Rounded Library. To me Adding a Sub-forum for True Stories of all kinds (especially well written ones like MoniqueSsbbw's) and more sub-forums within the Art Sub forum would enhance the library.


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## KHayes666

The reason I first came to Dimensions was the story The Mountain of Geneva....detailing a guy who finds a convienience store clerk hot and they eventually marry, she balloons to over 1,000 pounds before having WLS.

I was 16 years old when I read the story....using the new censorship and rules that people have been complaining about back when I first read it, there's a good chance that story is removed and I never join the site.

I agree to take down the underage rape and forcefeeding stories because those are just downright illegal for one thing, but to do a timeline sort of thing like "She started stuffing pillows in her shirt when she was 8, 10 years later she's now a bbw" I don't see how that's wrong because the storyline is written when the character is an adult. There's a disclaimer before you even post a story that there aren't supposed to be underage protagonists, so if someone is too dumb to see it, they deserve to have their story removed.

However when you start censoring stories for other subjects, then it becomes what Chicken Legs is talking about.....book burning. If one person gets a story removed, someone else will find something else offensive and throw up a picket sign because if one person was pleased, why not them? Then others will join in seeing how others got stories removed. Its a domino effect like on television, and I say the same rules apply to these people protesting stories the same way the PTC tried to run the WWF out in 1999:

Don't like it....don't read it.


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## escapist

Whats interesting to me is how you guys jump on Chicken Legs on areas of the forum you don't normally post, just because she posted there (a section she reads and post in frequently), and then call her the one string the pot. One of you has even admitted to this fact. Then you guys climb all over her not realizing how serious she is, and you take it as snippy comments when in truth she cares very deeply about this issue. Why is there a need to make a mockery of other peoples feelings and post? I strongly suggest you make all these comments to her personally in pm rather than creating another train-wreck of a thread by your whole little group jumping in here to "innocently voice their opinion". 

PS I would sent this as a PM but there are to many post happening to fast on this already for me to keep up.
--------------------------------
...And now on topic:

The stories are all categorized and put in their proper place. I do agree with there is no need to censor an artist right to be vulgar, sick, perverted, or write about topics and theme's needed to tell the creators story within his/her vision. As an artist myself I would be deeply offended by someone taking a marker to my creations just cause they couldn't deal with what I said.


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## mossystate

chicken legs said:


> ....Adding a Sub-forum for True Stories of all kinds (especially well written ones like MoniqueSsbbw's)....




:blink:

Especially well written ones? Please step back and think about what you just typed. It is not about that you want people to understand struggles; you want people to be able to enjoy a yarn...a story...no matter the subject...no matter the person behind the....REAL....story. This is not like an old True Crime magazine. This is not to titillate, sexually or otherwise. This is not about the writing styles. Real human beings...not fodder.


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## katorade

Kevin, sorry, but...where is this other incident where people are calling for more stuff to be banned from the library?


Chicken, I mean this in the most sincere way possible, but do you really think that Monique would want her life experiences posted in the Dims library? Really? I can understand wanting to maybe build a bridge of subject matter all Dims patrons might find interest in, but as it's been clearly pointed out before, the majority of Library readers are there for the erotic fiction, and I'm not sure having personal biographies about weight loss surgery would be good juju for _either_ end of the spectrum.


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## Fascinita

I em serious.

I came here because censorshipz turn me on like nobody's beeswax.

Look at that thread title. Says it all. :eat2:


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## KHayes666

katorade said:


> Kevin, sorry, but...where is this other incident where people are calling for more stuff to be banned from the library?
> 
> 
> Chicken, I mean this in the most sincere way possible, but do you really think that Monique would want her life experiences posted in the Dims library? Really? I can understand wanting to maybe build a bridge of subject matter all Dims patrons might find interest in, but as it's been clearly pointed out before, the majority of Library readers are there for the erotic fiction, and I'm not sure having personal biographies about weight loss surgery would be good juju for _either_ end of the spectrum.



I heard about it over a private luncheon with a few friends from Dims who told me other people were protesting more than underage protagonists....I'm just going with what they said because they're not the type to lie.

As for the second part: In the proper context, Monique's story could be posted for acceptance, inspiration and educational purposes. She's had a very real and very eye opening experience in life, one that I can never imagine. Reading her whole story would make me not only understand her better, but others who've gone through what she has.

Not all the stories have to be wank fodder, the ones I post (before they're removed for bad language) are more about telling a story rather than to wank to. A Monique inspired story would be like that, something inspirational and educational...not wank fodder. If someone reads her story and starts understanding WLS better like I did, then something good has come from it


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## katorade

KHayes666 said:


> I heard about it over a private luncheon with a few friends from Dims who told me other people were protesting more than underage protagonists....I'm just going with what they said because they're not the type to lie.





Yeah, until you actually see proof of this happening, I wouldn't rely so much on hearsay. People are very capable of disliking something, voicing their opinion in the appropriate arena, and still not impeding on your wants and desires.

.


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## Inhibited

chicken legs said:


> To clarify and summerize my points thus far....I like a Uncensored, Well Catorgized, Well-Rounded Library. To me Adding a Sub-forum for True Stories of all kinds (especially well written ones like MoniqueSsbbw's) and more sub-forums within the Art Sub forum would enhance the library.



I for one would like to read True Stories, i remember stumbling upon a story where a members niece invited her bbw friend over when her Aunty (the member) was visiting, so she could introduce the bbw friend to her. I thought it was a nice story would be nice to read others.


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## chicken legs

mossystate said:


> :blink:
> 
> Especially well written ones? Please step back and think about what you just typed. It is not about that you want people to understand struggles; you want people to be able to enjoy a yarn...a story...no matter the subject...no matter the person behind the....REAL....story. This is not like an old True Crime magazine. This is not to titillate, sexually or otherwise. This is not about the writing styles. Real human beings...not fodder.




Yes I would like people to be able to READ stories of all kinds and please stop trying make everthing about *quivers* wank fodder. I know you have Issues with Wank Fodder but that is just your kink and I understand that. However, reality is not everything is Wank Fodder. If it were..then there would be no point to post any idea or piece of media.


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## mossystate

KHayes666 said:


> As for the second part: In the proper context, Monique's story could be posted for acceptance, inspiration and educational purposes. She's had a very real and very eye opening experience in life, one that I can never imagine. Reading her whole story would make me not only understand her better, but others who've gone through what she has.
> 
> Not all the stories have to be wank fodder, the ones I post (before they're removed for bad language) are more about telling a story rather than to wank to. A Monique inspired story would be like that, something inspirational and educational...not wank fodder. If someone reads her story and starts understanding WLS better like I did, then something good has come from it




Monique's story ( and, I apologize to you Monique, for continuing to use your journey as a means to make a point ) HAS been posted...it EXISTS....for ALL...ALL...ALL...to read. One only has to leave the library to read it. Scroll a little. 

A Monique inspired story? That _story_ would not be allowed anywhere other than the WLS forum. Are you talking about a story that is a cautionary tale against WLS?


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## katorade

chicken legs said:


> Yes I would like people to be able to READ stories of all kinds and please stop trying make everthing about *quivers* wank fodder. I know you have Issues with Wank Fodder but that is just your kink and I understand that. However, reality is not everything is Wank Fodder. If it were..then there would be no point to post any idea or piece of media.




The issue we're currently in is that the library traffic as of now is, by their own admission, done by people seeking erotic fiction. Also, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find people that would want their experiences like that posted amongst fiction. It just makes it feel all the more...discounted. I don't know. I don't think you had dubious reasons behind suggesting it, but I just don't think it would be a welcome approach.


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## mossystate

chicken legs said:


> Yes I would like people to be able to READ stories of all kinds and please stop trying make everthing about *quivers* wank fodder. I know you have Issues with Wank Fodder but that is just your kink and I understand that. However, reality is not everything is Wank Fodder. If it were..then there would be no point to post any idea or piece of media.



B-seibsdkvbjsdov;bs;dbgadpbp!

I was not making everything about wank fodder...YOU are doing that. lol :doh:

You CAN read her story...it is THERE. I mean, you can continue to attribute things to people who did not say them, but it would have been nice to see you talk...before...about how you want to understand and SEE and READ about people...you know...in ways that is not highlighting WF. Where were you, Chicken? There is all kinds of stuff...readily available....for your reading pleasure.


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## KHayes666

mossystate said:


> A Monique inspired story? That _story_ would not be allowed anywhere other than the WLS forum. Are you talking about a story that is a cautionary tale against WLS?



No, I'm talking about a story about someone who goes through what Monqiue went through. Its wouldn't be against WLS, it wouldn't be wank fodder....but it would be something everyone can read and come out better for it.


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## chicken legs

Mossystate you were the first to mention fodder in post #17 of this thread.:doh:

Katorade the Library section includes a forum for readers feedback, a forum for Aurthors, a Area for Art, and Sub-forums for Topic specific stories..I'm just asking to add A subforum for Real Stories of Love, Personal Stories, etc.

Plus I like the Public Library to be free of Censorship why not the Dims Library?


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## katorade

KHayes666 said:


> No, I'm talking about a story about someone who goes through what Monqiue went through. Its wouldn't be against WLS, it wouldn't be wank fodder....but it would be something everyone can read and come out better for it.




Nope, not allowed outside of the WLS board, remember?


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## katorade

chicken legs said:


> Mossystate you were the first to mention fodder in post #17 of this thread.:doh:
> 
> Katorade the Library section includes a forum for readers feedback, a forum for Aurthors, a Area for Art, and Sub-forums for Topic specific stories..I'm just asking to add A subforum for Real Stories of Love, Personal Stories, etc.
> 
> Plus I like the Public Library to be free of Censorship why not the Dims Library?



My point was that most of the sub-forums revolve around the subjects of romance, erotica, and weight gain, so it would be really out-of-place to have a _true_ story of something other than romance, erotica, or weight gain. I could see adding a sub-forum for real stories and it might even be fun for a lot of people, but I gotta say, the example you picked was a doozie of a bad choice to start one with.


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## mossystate

KHayes666 said:


> No, I'm talking about a story about someone who goes through what Monqiue went through. Its wouldn't be against WLS, it wouldn't be wank fodder....but it would be something everyone can read and come out better for it.



It would not be allowed. Kevin, go do some research in the WLS forum. Also, the REAL deal is being posted...no need for ' stories '. Maybe the color of shoes and the weather report is not being added, but I don't see how what you are talking about would be helpful. The library is not really about helpful...not in that way. So many forums. Let's not have the weight board and the library as the only ' gotta see ' spots.
--
chicken...you have to do more than notice your favorite catch phrases


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## Risible

This is a problematic thread and is on its way to being closed due to the personal slant of many of the posts. Please stop with the personal attacks; further such may be met with infractions.

/mod


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## DELIMAN092262

Please correct my assumptions. A public library is owned by the public. The public therefore has a voice in the operation of the library. The Dimensions library is a private operation. It is owned by Conrad and he has total control of it's operation. Conrad or the people selected by him have total authority to decide what is included and excluded from the library. 

A decision was made about under age characters. You can either accept that decision or move on. It is up to you.


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## escapist

Why do people assume that cause you read a story from here its "wank fodder"? I've read stories from here because I like the writers and/or their style of story telling or I find the story interesting. I can't say I've ever "gotten off" or "Wanked" while reading a single one of them. I just like some of it, I find the stories of interest. I've never even read stuff like this on other sites, Dims is the first and only place I've done it. Like I said, as an artist Censorship Scares me it lends itself so much to the personal likes, dislikes, emotions, and whatever "morals" the person censoring it feels at the moment. I just don't understand being overly-sensitive to certain topics. Life can be cruel and harsh and yet so beautiful. A good story teller or artist can express those aspects in ways that invoke passion and move us and give it so much more color that we previously saw.

All that said, I can certainly respect that this is not a public site. If it were my site, I would perhaps want rules. I would just make sure there was a verification process that approved stories for the board that were based on simple basic principals and logic and not the "feelings" of an individual.


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## chicken legs

First, thank you all for posting and keeping it interesting. Second, I am in no way going against the "Children's Internet Protection Act". Third, it seems I am just repeating (sorry High School History teacher who was in Nam) what others have been saying for sometime now...this is Conrad's site. Fourth, I am not sure there is a rule that says you cant post the same post in different areas.

The public library was an example of how stores of information have come under witch hunts.

Bottom line I like this website...Conrad and friends you do an excellent job. 

Looking through old posts...I find that I stepped into a huge pile of poo. I cannot believe how long folks have been fighting (over nothing) and that HP got deleted because of it. I go to other sites and let me tell you this is one of coolest sites (all bickering aside..ok.. sometimes it is entertaining). As far as the stories go...its really on the pg-13 side (I'm kinda a pg-13 person..so its great for me). However, you have to be into reading stories to know that.

I say lets use my idea from another thread...it might mean that new users have to download a key to understand how to use the site but hey it might work. The idea you ask? Well, its to add another button to the interface. One, that gives the OP more power to avoid possible derailing of the thread. Basically, the OP can hide posts that he/she feels is derailing the thread. However, if you want to see the post in question, just sign in and hit the button to reveal all the posts. Now, I dont know if this is possible, but there ya go. :happy:


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## Sugar

Some things are best left unsaid...


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## escapist

Sugar said:


> Some things are best left unsaid...



Clearly you've been married before too lol


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## mollycoddles

KHayes666 said:


> No, I'm talking about a story about someone who goes through what Monqiue went through. Its wouldn't be against WLS, it wouldn't be wank fodder....but it would be something everyone can read and come out better for it.



I am honestly puzzled as to why you would think that the library readers would be interested in such a story.

More to the point, who would write such a story?


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## Lardibutts

For the first time since this storm blew up about the quality of the Dims library writing, Im plucking up courage to stick my head out and post a suggestion 

Up till now Ive been off hiding under a stone. Im actually back lurking as a (guilt ridden) closet FA exactly where Id already spent well over 50 years of my life before happening upon Dims a decade ago. 

Finding this community of like-minded oddballs was, for me, the highlight of getting a home connection to the net. And I kept returning to the Library; to me its best writing had style and wit as well as eroticism  qualities woefully absent in every other utterly charmless FA site on the web. Eventually I screwed up enough courage to post stories alongside those writers Id so enjoyed such as WB, Melanie Bell et al. 

Though we seem to attract a fair number of readers, I can quite understand how our minority clique of weirdoes must cause offence to all those worthier and weightier souls that must constitute Americas heartland. 
So is there not a case for hiving the library off as a free standing site called Ex Dims or somesuch?

Cheers everyone; Im off back under my stone.

L


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## Inhibited

mollycoddles said:


> I am honestly puzzled as to why you would think that the library readers would be interested in such a story.
> 
> More to the point, who would write such a story?



I have to be honest have never really been to the library don't know what it is all about but, if there was a section with "true stories" i would be heaps interested. I for one would be interested in reading people's experience with WLS. I won't name names but, i have read some posts in regards to WLS and it would be great to read the whole story of some members. I don't want to speak for other members but, as there are some threads asking questions in relation to WLS maybe I'm not the only one who would be interested.


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## Gendo Ikari

So, what about the Writer's Guild?


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## chicken legs

Writer's Guild?



My suggestion and commentary in a nutshell is ..instead of trimming the library ..how about making it more well rounded.


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## Vader7476

Right, but you're advocating an addition for a section for solely true stories. There are only a few on here that are billed as having actually happened. There's not enough content to warrant your suggestion, and anyone that wants to tell their real life experiences is free to do so and claim it as such. 

The library is a collection of WG fiction, it's not really about weight loss. The WLS board is the place for that kind of experience, and I assume the members there can post their tales for you to read there if they so wish.


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## chicken legs

Vader7476 said:


> Right, but you're advocating an addition for a section for solely true stories. There are only a few on here that are billed as having actually happened. There's not enough content to warrant your suggestion, and anyone that wants to tell their real life experiences is free to do so and claim it as such.
> 
> The library is a collection of WG fiction, it's not really about weight loss. The WLS board is the place for that kind of experience, and I assume the members there can post their tales for you to read there if they so wish.



I am talking about more than just weight loss...


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## maxoutfa

I looked into this thread as it seemed to be about censorship, but in reading it all there seems to be this "true story" arguement that to me derails the intended discussion of censorship.

I'm writing this, as I recently posted one of my stories - a historical fiction involving an arranged marriage, only to discover that the story was pulled because the couple involved were 13 and 18 at the time of their wedding.

I had no idea that there was a ban on underage sex, but even that is besides the point - which is that this was historical fiction. Crikey, Marie Antionette was 14 when she married Louis - this is fact, so I still can't for the life of me see what could possibly be offensive in the wedding of a 13 year old to an 18 year old - there was no forced sex, simply the plot element of an arranged marriage, and in fact the only sex scenes involving the 13 year old, other than a referrence to the "consumation of their marriage", came as a tender romantic scene between she and another female servant (again, all necessary plot elements).

There is no subliminal message to be found in the story, as it was written as a weight gain tale and the glorification of the male lead who didn't care that others knew he was an FA. I can't believe that it could be seen as anything more than that - but rules are rules so the story is banned.

I consented to have the ages changed by the moderators, so you may yet see the story entitled "The Contract", but the story will certainly lose context with the charactors being older (part of the realism, not only of the period and place, comes because the girl is young and hadn't fully developed into a woman).

After I consented to the changes, I began thinking about what a slippery slope we are all headed down - in aiming to protect the sensative we are ignoring history, and that is truly a shame as it breeds ignorance, especially of other times and cultures different from our own. It has been said that ignorance breeds fear, which in turn breeds racial hatred. By censoring a story that is historically accurate concerning midieval times (and true even into the 1700's) we are running the risk of fostering ignorance. 

I am certainly not in support of pedophilia, and would not be prone to read a story that had such acts as its central theme; however lumping a historical fiction that involves a marriage between two teens into that same box seems like damning to the lowest common denominator.

If the readers of dim find underage stories and or force feeding stories to be offensive, I suggest that, rather than banning them outright, they be placed in a "deviant erotica" section, so that those who may want to read such things may do so and those who find them offensive will know not to venture there. 

Perhaps we're leaning towards a deeper issue - that if by printing it, dim is tacitly endorsing it. I don't believe that to be so, but I'm sure there are legitimate arguements to the contrary. What worries me is where and how you draw the line once you decide to begin censoring. As my story indicates, that line can be drawn far afield from its intended purpose. I'm mentioning this for I have written other stories (which I'm sure many of you recall from my old site) that, if looked at with a hyper critical eye, could be construed as involving some form of force feeding (either overtly or subliminally). These were all written as fantasies and explorations of the phenominum and were not written to shock or offend, and I certainly had no idea when I wrote them years ago that they could possibly be construed as somehow subversive enough to run the risk of being censored now years later. 

To be blunt, I believe that most of the stories written and submitted here are intended to fulfill or entertain fantasies, all of which have to do with weight gain (which I'm sure seems perverse to those outside this community), which begs the question; how can we condone any of the stories of weight gain fantasy while the mainstream would consider us all to be deviant, and then practice censorship ourselves. 

I'm probably not clear on all the rules, and I love this site - it opened my eyes to the entire community many years ago- however, rather than strictly adhering to a set of rules, perhaps looking at each story and judging accordingly would be better than being boxed in by an ironclad policy. 

In the end, this is a privately owned site, so of course you may do what you like; I just find it a shame that since it is the granddaddy of all FA, weight gain/weight acceptance sites, we can't be a little more tolerant and include stories that, while unsavory to some, may be an entertaining diversion to others.

I apoligize for the length and, as it's very late, I'm sure I could have marshalled my thoughts better, but it's something I felt I needed to say, and is intended only as a discourse and not meant to be inflammatory - so I also apologize in advance to those who may think it so.


----------



## ShammyBoy

Romeo and Juliet wouldn't last here.


----------



## mossystate

ShammyBoy said:


> Romeo and Juliet wouldn't last here.



They didn't exactly last back then. 

To max...tolerance...just for the library stories? And, your ' historical fiction '...was not written way back when. Think about how many other sensibilities have changed, and if you tried to resurrect some because you can find that they were once lived without a blink of an eye...would you give the nod, across the board? There are fantasies expressed about feeding women to death. The ' censorship ' in the stories section is happening mostly just with the age thing. Let's say this ain't a bad thing. I am sure there are other historical happenings that get your motor running, and your fingers flying.


----------



## maxoutfa

mossystate said:


> They didn't exactly last back then.
> 
> To max...tolerance...just for the library stories? And, your ' historical fiction '...was not written way back when. Think about how many other sensibilities have changed, and if you tried to resurrect some because you can find that they were once lived without a blink of an eye...would you give the nod, across the board? There are fantasies expressed about feeding women to death. The ' censorship ' in the stories section is happening mostly just with the age thing. Let's say this ain't a bad thing. I am sure there are other historical happenings that get your motor running, and your fingers flying.



Yes Mossy - tolerance. I am probably in the minority (as usual) but don't see the harm in having a forum where one can read a story that others may construe as unsavory. This way lines don't have to be drawn in the sand, and a simple story that takes place pre 1800 that has NO ill will towards women of any kind and simply accepts the tenants that were in place at the time (there's that damning word "accept") does not get censored.

My story is certainly not advocating the practice of underaged nor arranged marriages; it simply states that these were the times and this is what was the practice in those times. It is simply history. Are we to ignore it because we don't like it? (what was that ridiculous mumbling coming out of Iran that the holocost never happened?). Are we to strike any mention of slavery from the history books because we are now more enlightened?

This is why I'm speaking out in the first place. To me the issue is not that the site has decided to outlaw stories involving underaged sex - but that a story of a time and place that may be informative to some gets caught in the same catch all net (and again, may I point out that my story involved no underage sex out of wedlock - and there are NO graphic discriptions involved, except involving the cook's daughter (and her age is never mentioned) - nor coerced sex of any kind).

I learned a lot more from reading historical fictions than I probably did from dusty old history books - and I'm certainly not saying that this little story is any kind of revelation; however, just as an aside from the central theme of a male FA, there are enough historical tid-bits thrown in where someone who may not be historically aware, may just increase their horizons a smidge. Anyone can write a story of weight gain. My creative bent was to place it within the historical context.

This story was not written to challenge the status quo here - in fact it was written many years before hand (and I wasn't even aware of the ban when I submitted it - I was just migrating the story over here from my closed Geocites site).

As far as there being stories where someone has fed a woman to death - while I find that distastful, I would find it hard to discern where to draw the line in regards to force feeding in general. Some of my own stories have an element of force feeding - on occasion to delve into the sub normal behavior, just as one would "investigate" a serial killer - while other stories have had a tone of misplaced love, or even a love that grows out of that feeding. Once again, I wouldn't wish my stories to fall into the same net as a banned story of murder by feeding. Censorship is a tricky thing, but let me state in closing that I fully understand that this site has an ownership and therefore has the right to include or exclude what it wishes - of this I am a firm advocate.


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## mossystate

maxoutfa said:


> My story is certainly not advocating the practice of underaged nor arranged marriages; it simply states that these were the times and this is what was the practice in those times. It is simply history. Are we to ignore it because we don't like it? (what was that ridiculous mumbling coming out of Iran that the holocost never happened?). Are we to strike any mention of slavery from the history books because we are now more enlightened?



Would you write a story on a fetish board about how slaveowners would ' take ' female slaves ( I cleaned that up, in keeping with the sanitized thing we are participating in here )? In other words, please do not say that you are merely educating people on practices from the past. I am not suggesting you are out to advocate for underage marriage, or writing salacious stories about the particulars of sex with children ( have never read anything from you )... just that some of these examples get a little bloated, is all, and I would wonder why you decided to shoot for including that particular tidbit. Not exactly the place for edumacation on why little girls were married off at 13...cuz the facts, including the historical attitudes towards children and women...not going to be bothered with.


----------



## maxoutfa

mossystate said:


> Would you write a story on a fetish board about how slaveowners would ' take ' female slaves ( I cleaned that up, in keeping with the sanitized thing we are participating in here )? In other words, please do not say that you are merely educating people on practices from the past. I am not suggesting you are out to advocate for underage marriage, or writing salacious stories about the particulars of sex with children ( have never read anything from you )... just that some of these examples get a little bloated, is all, and I would wonder why you decided to shoot for including that particular tidbit. Not exactly the place for edumacation on why little girls were married off at 13...cuz the facts, including the historical attitudes towards children and women...not going to be bothered with.



I'm not saying that the piece was written to educate, simply that the possibility exists that someone might learn something that they did not know beforehand in regards to the mores and practices of the past (I have probably learned more from historical fiction than from dusty history books as the context are much more fulfilling).

Historical attitudes towards children and women - not going to be bothered with. This I don't understand. Simply because we in the west have moved on and no longer tolerate child labour or pre suffragette climate towards women doesn't mean that it should not be spoken of, lest future generations forget what was sacrificed to bring us to where we are. 

It is pretty much common knowledge that in China to this day, many families kill off their female offspring; should this be ignored or later swept under the table by future generations? History is what gives context to the present. That is why I "shot" for including other examples of things we in the west have moved past - the similarity that we have moved past them, but should not ignore that they happened (and since some here have found it objectionable that a 13 year old was wed to an 18 year old.... this makes the analogy not "bloated", merely that in all cases it is found objectionable, and as one is being censored, then we run the risk of censoring all, thus ignoring history (and are therefore doomed to repeat it, as some pundit once wrote).

When you mentioned the possibility of writing a story concerning the slave owner "taking" their female slaves: I have not written such a story, but can see nothing wrong with someone doing so - again, they are not advocating the practice, simply writing a fiction couched in the reality of the period. I have read several novels and seen several films where this has been an important plot point. Do I find it pleasing - no. Would I censor such works - same answer.

All I'm really trying to say here is that the world isn't a pretty place, and history is filled with all kinds of attrocities; to ignore them is to run the risk of fostering an invironment where such things can take hold. 

That is my take on censorship.

In regards to my story... the age of the female lead has been changed - as you have mentioned that you haven't read any of my work, please do me the honor of reading this one and letting me know if there is something there that you find offensive. I'm hoping that you will agree that there is no exploitation of any kind, and no objectification of women; merely a period piece wherein a young man admits to his desires for a more robust figure.

See "The Contract" in the new stories section.


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## mossystate

Yeah, you did not understand. Carry on.


----------



## KHayes666

I'm gonna write a story about a shy young man hired by an office company that falls for his recently divorced boss and in the end, turns her into a voluptuous ssbbw.

Don't like the sound of that? Too bad


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## katorade

maxoutfa said:


> I'm not saying that the piece was written to educate, simply that the possibility exists that someone might learn something that they did not know beforehand in regards to the mores and practices of the past (I have probably learned more from historical fiction than from dusty history books as the context are much more fulfilling).
> 
> Historical attitudes towards children and women - not going to be bothered with. This I don't understand. Simply because we in the west have moved on and no longer tolerate child labour or pre suffragette climate towards women doesn't mean that it should not be spoken of, lest future generations forget what was sacrificed to bring us to where we are.
> 
> It is pretty much common knowledge that in China to this day, many families kill off their female offspring; should this be ignored or later swept under the table by future generations? History is what gives context to the present. That is why I "shot" for including other examples of things we in the west have moved past - the similarity that we have moved past them, but should not ignore that they happened (and since some here have found it objectionable that a 13 year old was wed to an 18 year old.... this makes the analogy not "bloated", merely that in all cases it is found objectionable, and as one is being censored, then we run the risk of censoring all, thus ignoring history (and are therefore doomed to repeat it, as some pundit once wrote).
> 
> When you mentioned the possibility of writing a story concerning the slave owner "taking" their female slaves: I have not written such a story, but can see nothing wrong with someone doing so - again, they are not advocating the practice, simply writing a fiction couched in the reality of the period. I have read several novels and seen several films where this has been an important plot point. Do I find it pleasing - no. Would I censor such works - same answer.
> 
> All I'm really trying to say here is that the world isn't a pretty place, and history is filled with all kinds of attrocities; to ignore them is to run the risk of fostering an invironment where such things can take hold.
> 
> That is my take on censorship.
> 
> In regards to my story... the age of the female lead has been changed - as you have mentioned that you haven't read any of my work, please do me the honor of reading this one and letting me know if there is something there that you find offensive. I'm hoping that you will agree that there is no exploitation of any kind, and no objectification of women; merely a period piece wherein a young man admits to his desires for a more robust figure.
> 
> See "The Contract" in the new stories section.




It's pretty clear that you don't understand the delineation between factual historical content and an entertainment fluff piece, or even the finer line of using things like satire in fiction to echo the importance of parallel situations in reality.

In short, nobody's going to get a D in their English lit class for not reading anything the Dimensions library has to offer, Victorian child porn or not.


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## maxoutfa

Jimmy Jones - perhaps what is clear is that you are not understanding that others who may read stories here don't have the intellectual backround that you do, and therefore might just glean a bit of knowledge from the story. If you truly read my post it would be clear that I never claimed my story or any other was a work of significant art, but simply that since my story is a period piece, one perhaps could gain a perspective of lives and times from it.

As for Victorian child porn - it is obvious that you have not read the story - first of all, wrong age by well over 500 years, and secondly, not pornographic by any meaningful standard.

Concerning what I may or may not understand concerning delineation and fine lines - what I do know is that I applaude you for knowing how to use them.



katorade said:


> It's pretty clear that you don't understand the delineation between factual historical content and an entertainment fluff piece, or even the finer line of using things like satire in fiction to echo the importance of parallel situations in reality.
> 
> In short, nobody's going to get a D in their English lit class for not reading anything the Dimensions library has to offer, Victorian child porn or not.


----------



## katorade

maxoutfa said:


> Jimmy Jones - perhaps what is clear is that you are not understanding that others who may read stories here don't have the intellectual backround that you do, and therefore might just glean a bit of knowledge from the story. If you truly read my post it would be clear that I never claimed my story or any other was a work of significant art, but simply that since my story is a period piece, one perhaps could gain a perspective of lives and times from it.
> 
> As for Victorian child porn - it is obvious that you have not read the story - first of all, wrong age by well over 500 years, and secondly, not pornographic by any meaningful standard.
> 
> Concerning what I may or may not understand concerning delineation and fine lines - what I do know is that I applaude you for knowing how to use them.




You can not gain any knowledge from FICTION. I'll give you the gaining of perspective, but knowledge? No.


----------



## KHayes666

katorade said:


> You can not gain any knowledge from FICTION. I'll give you the gaining of perspective, but knowledge? No.



Gonna have to disagree there, depending on the right source you can gain a ton of knowledge from fiction.

The Green Mile was a fictional book but I learned a lot about prison life from it.

The Scarlett Letter never happened but you learn a lot about adultery and what goes through the minds of some people. It may be a "perspective" but you still have your own lessons learned from reading it.

Hell, I learned more about Japanese history watching Big Bird Goes To Japan when I was 7 than I did in history class that year.


----------



## Tsap

katorade said:


> You can not gain any knowledge from FICTION. I'll give you the gaining of perspective, but knowledge? No.



I disagree with most polite terms. What are business plans and blue prints but fiction - before they are realized? And if that is too far-fetched for your taste and we should keep considering only fantasy stories, I point to Jules Verne, Arthur Clarke, Isaac Asimov, etc. whose visions, described in their stories, have become reality later, like we have seen. Clarke described the satellites that now gives us satellite-navigation, just as one example. Can't that be taken as some kind of knowledge, too?


----------



## katorade

KHayes666 said:


> Gonna have to disagree there, depending on the right source you can gain a ton of knowledge from fiction.
> 
> The Green Mile was a fictional book but I learned a lot about prison life from it.
> 
> The Scarlett Letter never happened but you learn a lot about adultery and what goes through the minds of some people. It may be a "perspective" but you still have your own lessons learned from reading it.
> 
> Hell, I learned more about Japanese history watching Big Bird Goes To Japan when I was 7 than I did in history class that year.




No, like I said, you gained perspective of what it's like to be in and work in a prison from a singular account. The knowledge you gained from the story is a) not necessarily factual, and b) does not apply to all situations except for those applicable to that particular story. That is why it's fiction, it can't be considered as fact. 

For example, if you wanted to apply for a job as a prison guard and fill in the spot on your resume for prior experience with "I've seen The Green Mile 18 times and memorized every line", you'd get laughed at.


----------



## katorade

Tsap said:


> I disagree with most polite terms. What are business plans and blue prints but fiction - before they are realized? And if that is too far-fetched for your taste and we should keep considering only fantasy stories, I point to Jules Verne, Arthur Clarke, Isaac Asimov, etc. whose visions, described in their stories, have become reality later, like we have seen. Clarke described the satellites that now gives us satellite-navigation, just as one example. Can't that be taken as some kind of knowledge, too?




They're not fiction, they're theory or a plan, or in the case of science fiction, the source of inspiration, _not _knowledge. That's something completely different. Knowledge of satellite navigation comes from the actual trial and error process.
Unlike future-based theory, historical fiction has already happened and there is no opportunity to go back and change the outcome to actually make the story a factual historical account.


----------



## Tsap

katorade said:


> They're not fiction, they're theory or a plan, or in the case of science fiction, the source of inspiration, _not _knowledge. That's something completely different. Knowledge of satellite navigation comes from the actual trial and error process.
> Unlike future-based theory, historical fiction has already happened and there is no opportunity to go back and change the outcome to actually make the story a factual historical account.



I only pointed to the fact that so many great human acchievements have appeared as fiction in their early stages and that the quality of fiction can considerably save the cost of trial and error process you quite correctly mention. 
What comes to changing history I have to disagree again. That is what historians do, isn't it?


----------



## KHayes666

Tsap said:


> I only pointed to the fact that so many great human acchievements have appeared as fiction in their early stages and that the quality of fiction can considerably save the cost of trial and error process you quite correctly mention.
> What comes to changing history I have to disagree again. That is what historians do, isn't it?



History is fiction in itself sometimes. 

For example, Israel Bissel rode 300 miles to Philly to warn that the British were coming but Henry Wadsworth Longfellow had everyone believe it was Paul Revere who warned everyone.

Also according to Washington Irving, Columbus made his voyage to prove the world was round.....wrong.

It takes a great man to make history, however it takes a better man to write it.


----------



## katorade

Tsap said:


> I only pointed to the fact that so many great human acchievements have appeared as fiction in their early stages and that the quality of fiction can considerably save the cost of trial and error process you quite correctly mention.
> What comes to changing history I have to disagree again. That is what historians do, isn't it?




I dunno, that sort of undermines the efforts of the people that put the original theory into effect and actually made it work.


----------



## maxoutfa

katorade said:


> No, like I said, you gained perspective of what it's like to be in and work in a prison from a singular account. The knowledge you gained from the story is a) not necessarily factual, and b) does not apply to all situations except for those applicable to that particular story. That is why it's fiction, it can't be considered as fact.
> 
> For example, if you wanted to apply for a job as a prison guard and fill in the spot on your resume for prior experience with "I've seen The Green Mile 18 times and memorized every line", you'd get laughed at.



splitting hairs a bit over the definition of "knowledge". 
Here's one dictionary:"the acquantance with facts, truths, or principles" - therefore one can certainly gain "Knowledge" by the reading of a historical fiction that contains principles in evidence at the time.

The historical fictions of Wilber Smith, Neil Stephenson or Gary Jennings are fiction in that the charactors and situations are made up, but the details of the times in which they were writing of are indeed factual, and certainly "knowledge" (the acquantance with facts, truths or principles) can be acquired there.


I acknowledge the distinction between gaining a perspective and learning a universal truth. The Oxford def. of "knowledge" speaks more to your point of view: "expertise and skills acquired by a person through education or experience". Of course we could split hairs over the def. of "education" as well.

If you were to read, say Stephenson, you would have to agree that he goes to great length explaining how things work (from Cryptology to finding Latitude). I certainly learned from his fiction and now have something that could arguably be called "knowledge" about such things. Enough to get me a job as a cryptographer - of course not - but it all adds to my "knowledge" of the world in which we live in, and I would propose that history and the "knowledge" thereof has shaped said world.

We seem to be in agreement that perspective can be garnered by a work of historical fiction. I must conclude that gaining perspective is no small thing - anything that one may "learn" should be considered benificial even if one finds it distastful.


----------



## katorade

maxoutfa said:


> splitting hairs a bit over the definition of "knowledge".
> Here's one dictionary:"the acquantance with facts, truths, or principles" - therefore one can certainly gain "Knowledge" by the reading of a historical fiction that contains principles in evidence at the time.
> 
> The historical fictions of Wilber Smith, Neil Stephenson or Gary Jennings are fiction in that the charactors and situations are made up, but the details of the times in which they were writing of are indeed factual, and certainly "knowledge" (the acquantance with facts, truths or principles) can be acquired there.
> 
> 
> I acknowledge the distinction between gaining a perspective and learning a universal truth. The Oxford def. of "knowledge" speaks more to your point of view: "expertise and skills acquired by a person through education or experience". Of course we could split hairs over the def. of "education" as well.
> 
> If you were to read, say Stephenson, you would have to agree that he goes to great length explaining how things work (from Cryptology to finding Latitude). I certainly learned from his fiction and now have something that could arguably be called "knowledge" about such things. Enough to get me a job as a cryptographer - of course not - but it all adds to my "knowledge" of the world in which we live in, and I would propose that history and the "knowledge" thereof has shaped said world.
> 
> We seem to be in agreement that perspective can be garnered by a work of historical fiction. I must conclude that gaining perspective is no small thing - anything that one may "learn" should be considered benificial even if one finds it distastful.



Your whole point was worrying about ignorance from the banning of such material. I'm simply arguing that the actual historical information put forth in fiction has no bearing on actual FACTS to further advance knowledge of what actually transpired during those times. 

Sure, you can gain some personal perspective, maybe learn someone else's personal philosophy, but the truth still remains that whatever "knowledge" someone gains from fiction is taken at a personal level, and not something that can be considered as concrete truth across the board. You cannot "teach" someone how to interpret a point of view or philosophy. You can suggest, you can guide, but you can't teach it, and just because someone isn't privy to your own perspective doesn't make them unenlightened or ignorant of anything at all.


----------



## Tsap

katorade said:


> I dunno, that sort of undermines the efforts of the people that put the original theory into effect and actually made it work.



I agree totally. IMHOP history should be left lie and archives stay as they are. Yet people tend to find new facts and historians like to write new books for many reasons, political or personal, I imagine.


----------



## KHayes666

Tsap said:


> I agree totally. IMHOP history should be left lie and archives stay as they are. Yet people tend to find new facts and historians like to write new books for many reasons, political or personal, I imagine.



The New Adventures of George Washington starring Alan Alda along with Dennis Hopper as his sidekick Sir William


----------



## Tsap

KHayes666 said:


> The New Adventures of George Washington starring Alan Alda along with Dennis Hopper as his sidekick Sir William



Indeed sir!  Wheee!


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

maxoutfa said:


> I'm not saying that the piece was written to educate, simply that the possibility exists that someone might learn something that they did not know beforehand in regards to the mores and practices of the past (I have probably learned more from historical fiction than from dusty history books as the context are much more fulfilling).
> 
> Historical attitudes towards children and women - not going to be bothered with. This I don't understand. Simply because we in the west have moved on and no longer tolerate child labour or pre suffragette climate towards women doesn't mean that it should not be spoken of, lest future generations forget what was sacrificed to bring us to where we are.
> 
> It is pretty much common knowledge that in China to this day, many families kill off their female offspring; should this be ignored or later swept under the table by future generations? History is what gives context to the present. That is why I "shot" for including other examples of things we in the west have moved past - the similarity that we have moved past them, but should not ignore that they happened (and since some here have found it objectionable that a 13 year old was wed to an 18 year old.... this makes the analogy not "bloated", merely that in all cases it is found objectionable, and as one is being censored, then we run the risk of censoring all, thus ignoring history (and are therefore doomed to repeat it, as some pundit once wrote).
> 
> When you mentioned the possibility of writing a story concerning the slave owner "taking" their female slaves: I have not written such a story, but can see nothing wrong with someone doing so - again, they are not advocating the practice, simply writing a fiction couched in the reality of the period. I have read several novels and seen several films where this has been an important plot point. Do I find it pleasing - no. Would I censor such works - same answer.
> 
> All I'm really trying to say here is that the world isn't a pretty place, and history is filled with all kinds of attrocities; to ignore them is to run the risk of fostering an invironment where such things can take hold.
> 
> That is my take on censorship.
> 
> In regards to my story... the age of the female lead has been changed - as you have mentioned that you haven't read any of my work, please do me the honor of reading this one and letting me know if there is something there that you find offensive. I'm hoping that you will agree that there is no exploitation of any kind, and no objectification of women; merely a period piece wherein a young man admits to his desires for a more robust figure.
> 
> See "The Contract" in the new stories section.



If the focus of writing a story is for mastubatory purposes and not to educate, then I don't think you have a point. 
Intent.....is the difference. All people would accidentally learn is that treating underage participants that way is that it's "okay"....or, at the very least, grow "desensitized" about the notion/idea.


----------



## katorade

Tsap said:


> I agree totally. IMHOP history should be left lie and archives stay as they are. Yet people tend to find new facts and historians like to write new books for many reasons, political or personal, I imagine.




Sorry, I meant to say that it was in reference to fiction authors. I think we can both agree that some separation should be placed between the terms "fiction" and "theory". Otherwise what you're saying could be applied to things like mythology and allegory, crediting the possibility of human flight to the reading of the story of Icarus, when in fact it was a dream and desire of many, many human beings. 

The fact that someone eloquently put it on paper is notable, but they shouldn't really get any credit for it other than being inspirational. Their involvement ended with the original idea. The difference comes in when an author theorizes how that idea might be carried out or become a real possibility. That's actually putting themselves on the road to knowledge rather than just whimsy.


----------



## Tsap

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> If the focus of writing a story is for mastubatory purposes and not to educate, then I don't think you have a point.
> Intent.....is the difference. All people would accidentally learn is that treating underage participants that way is that it's "okay"....or, at the very least, grow "desensitized" about the notion/idea.



May I inquire what You suggest? How to sensitize folks to those ideas, I mean.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

Tsap said:


> May I inquire what You suggest? How to sensitize folks to those ideas, I mean.



The intent of Max's post, as I took it anyway, was to say that some of the stories can hold educational value. I could have seen that point if those stories used historical references to point to injustice and oppression of people. If those stories, instead, seem to "glorify" those injustices by making them into something desirable, as sexual stories can do, how is that "helping" or "educating" anyone in a good way? 

Write stories with the intent of truly educating.....it's been done often time by many people. Sexual stories.....they are just that.....or at least what I have read on these boards to date. They strike me as doing more harm than "help" if they make people want to see other people hurt/put-down/oppressed because it's "sexy".


----------



## katorade

KHayes666 said:


> History is fiction in itself sometimes.
> 
> For example, Israel Bissel rode 300 miles to Philly to warn that the British were coming but Henry Wadsworth Longfellow had everyone believe it was Paul Revere who warned everyone.
> 
> Also according to Washington Irving, Columbus made his voyage to prove the world was round.....wrong.
> 
> It takes a great man to make history, however it takes a better man to write it.



Both of those are fictional accounts, not historical, nor are they regarded as such. What's your point?


----------



## Tsap

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> The intent of Max's post, as I took it anyway, was to say that some of the stories can hold educational value. I could have seen that point if those stories used historical references to point to injustice and oppression of people. If those stories, instead, seem to "glorify" those injustices by making them into something desirable, as sexual stories can do, how is that "helping" or "educating" anyone in a good way?
> 
> Write stories with the intent of truly educating.....it's been done often time by many people. Sexual stories.....they are just that.....or at least what I have read on these boards to date. They strike me as doing more harm than "help" if they make people want to see other people hurt/put-down/oppressed because it's "sexy".



Ok, please let me get this straight for ME, so I'd understand better what I try to say. First of all, I have read Max's last story like probably all his stories - and even while finding them with sexual content I never imagined they would really glorify injustices to anyone. There are/were stories in the library that disturbed me with some of their contents but they were not his and I definitely took it he was not referring to them. 
I have likewise read Your stories and thought highly of them in many respects, by the way. 
Now when that is settled (or rather I hope it is, lol) I would like to ask a question and imply another, if You allow me.
Is there, along what You see, any hope that anything we do/discuss here under this topic could considerably help general attitudes towards sex with underaged in particular and sexual behaviour in general? Is there evident possibilities to straighten and improve the quality of stories in Library in order to again sensitize readers with important matters?
I am sorry I express my thoughts in quite clumsy way, but I believe you read my intention correctly.


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## Green Eyed Fairy

Tsap said:


> Ok, please let me get this straight for ME, so I'd understand better what I try to say. First of all, I have read Max's last story like probably all his stories - and even while finding them with sexual content I never imagined they would really glorify injustices to anyone. There are/were stories in the library that disturbed me with some of their contents but they were not his and I definitely took it he was not referring to them.
> I have likewise read Your stories and thought highly of them in many respects, by the way.
> Now when that is settled (or rather I hope it is, lol) I would like to ask a question and imply another, if You allow me.
> Is there, along what You see, *any hope that anything we do/discuss here under this topic could considerably help general attitudes towards sex with underaged in particular and sexual behaviour in general?* Is there evident possibilities to straighten and improve the quality of stories in Library in order to again sensitize readers with important matters?
> I am sorry I express my thoughts in quite clumsy way, but I believe you read my intention correctly.




I think you are trying to act as a peacemaker of some sort- or that is my guess. 
Thank you for your kind words about my own stories. I wasn't "picking on" Max's stories but was rather answering to the point he attempted to make in one post that I quoted. 

All that being said, I really am not quite sure what you mean by the bolded part of your post. Are we trying to make it seem like a good thing? Just trying to "lighten up" the general attitude about it? 
What exactly is the goal when it comes to sex with underage characters in stories in the Dims library?


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## KHayes666

katorade said:


> Both of those are fictional accounts, not historical, nor are they regarded as such. What's your point?



Actually most elementary schools teach students that Paul Revere was the true midnight rider, Christopher Columbus tried to prove the world was round and other Liberty Valance situations.

The legends became facts as the years went by, so the legends were printed and reprinted throughout the years. Fictional accounts turned into historical accounts, which makes my point.

Name me one elementary school teacher that teaches children about the "real" midnight rider and I'll eat my hat.


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## Tsap

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I think you are trying to act as a peacemaker of some sort- or that is my guess.
> Thank you for your kind words about my own stories. I wasn't "picking on" Max's stories but was rather answering to the point he attempted to make in one post that I quoted.
> 
> All that being said, I really am not quite sure what you mean by the bolded part of your post. Are we trying to make it seem like a good thing? Just trying to "lighten up" the general attitude about it?
> What exactly is the goal when it comes to sex with underage characters in stories in the Dims library?



Peace would be good, because many forum-visitors probably shy away from perpetual bickering and loose their interest toward the site in general - but that was not my foremost worry.

IMHOP worrying without action is empty worrying, so I was asking if anyone knew realistic and working solution.

I have a nagging suspicion that unlike me some of those who write here, know exactly what should be done and what not. Instead of telling they seem to split hair, twist other peoples words and point out weaknesses in other folks logic and expressions, in spite of well grasping the meaning of sentences. That is what frets me and though I have now slowly started to understand reasons to such behavior I still can't find it too helpful.

I am reading and writing trough language-barrier. Yet I have read (not necessarily understood, lol) absolute majority of what still lies in Library and a good deal of the recent discussion about it. Otherwise I would not taken part in discussion here in the first place. Library is the reason why a good number of people are here. I am just one.


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## katorade

KHayes666 said:


> Actually most elementary schools teach students that Paul Revere was the true midnight rider, Christopher Columbus tried to prove the world was round and other Liberty Valance situations.
> 
> The legends became facts as the years went by, so the legends were printed and reprinted throughout the years. Fictional accounts turned into historical accounts, which makes my point.
> 
> Name me one elementary school teacher that teaches children about the "real" midnight rider and I'll eat my hat.




Uh, I don't know a single person that was taught that Paul Revere was the only rider, though he's the most famous/memorable because of the POEM written about him by Longfellow. Poem, not biography.

And I really don't know anybody in this day and age that wasn't taught that Columbus was in search of a more direct route to India for better access for Spain in the spice trade. You would get LAUGHED at if you tried to teach children otherwise several decades for not being up to date with information gathered by more thorough, scientific methods. Irving was both a historian and an author, and at the time it was very unclear whether or not he meant for it to be a story or a biography, but people have known for years that it was fictional.

Because a historical account may be proven false in a newer era does not mean they were fictional or were ever meant as such. It just means they were incomplete or misconstrued when researched. Fiction is created, not discovered and studied.

Regardless of that, it still stands that both accounts are still considered fiction by actual historians, so it doesn't really matter if there are a minor amount of people that still believe them to be true. There are people that are convinced vampires are real because of half-truths pieced together over the centuries about a handful of people with information available at the time that's...well...less than scientific.


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## TraciJo67

katorade said:


> Uh, I don't know a single person that was taught that Paul Revere was the only rider, though he's the most famous/memorable because of the POEM written about him by Longfellow. Poem, not biography.
> 
> And I really don't know anybody in this day and age that wasn't taught that Columbus was in search of a more direct route to India for better access for Spain in the spice trade. You would get LAUGHED at if you tried to teach children otherwise several decades for not being up to date with information gathered by more thorough, scientific methods. Irving was both a historian and an author, and at the time it was very unclear whether or not he meant for it to be a story or a biography, but people have known for years that it was fictional.
> 
> Because a historical account may be proven false in a newer era does not mean they were fictional or were ever meant as such. It just means they were incomplete or misconstrued when researched. Fiction is created, not discovered and studied.
> 
> Regardless of that, it still stands that both accounts are still considered fiction by actual historians, so it doesn't really matter if there are a minor amount of people that still believe them to be true. There are people that are convinced vampires are real because of half-truths pieced together over the centuries about a handful of people with information available at the time that's...well...less than scientific.




... all of which just reconfirms my desire to send our son to the best private school that we can afford. Damn. I'll eat Ramen & beans for the rest of my life, if necessary.


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## KHayes666

katorade said:


> *Uh, I don't know a single person that was taught that Paul Revere was the only rider, though he's the most famous/memorable because of the POEM written about him by Longfellow. Poem, not biography.*
> 
> And I really don't know anybody in this day and age that wasn't taught that Columbus was in search of a more direct route to India for better access for Spain in the spice trade. You would get LAUGHED at if you tried to teach children otherwise several decades for not being up to date with information gathered by more thorough, scientific methods. Irving was both a historian and an author, and at the time it was very unclear whether or not he meant for it to be a story or a biography, but people have known for years that it was fictional.
> 
> Because a historical account may be proven false in a newer era does not mean they were fictional or were ever meant as such. It just means they were incomplete or misconstrued when researched. Fiction is created, not discovered and studied.
> 
> Regardless of that, it still stands that both accounts are still considered fiction by actual historians, so it doesn't really matter if there are a minor amount of people that still believe them to be true. There are people that are convinced vampires are real because of half-truths pieced together over the centuries about a handful of people with information available at the time that's...well...less than scientific.



Well I guess "Listen my children and you shall hear of the midnight ride of Paul Revere" sounds a whole lot better than "Come along kiddies, daddy's gonna whistle while he tells you all the story about Israel Bissel!"


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## tankgirl

Rant ahead. This is your second warning.
I agree with Chicken and Max.... Expand the library, and judge on story instead of asumptions. On the other hand, I also have a story that is likely to be modded, if I even post it, just because the main character is having a Major Life Changing Event and is having flashbacks of when she was younger, as well as dreams of her younger self participating in some very indulgent fantasies that she was never actually allowed to do in real life. Long sequences that are very detailed, and not exactly politically correct, but some of it's based on my personal experiences. I'm probably not going to post it just because of all that nonsense, unless cooler heads prevail regarding the age thing.
I'd enjoy some historical fiction and a few real life stories floating around. Stick em both in a category called Adult Fiction, for anything just a little too real for the rest of the library. Heck, most of my stuff would go there, far as I'm concerned. I try to be as realistic as possible when I write, unless I'm just writing something that for out there anyway.
A point about a private vs. a public library: Okay, Conrad owns the site.
_*We love you Conrad (and Conrad's equally awesome crew), awesome job, please don't stop.*_ 
But, enough people whinging about something does have an effect. Which is, probably, part of what we owe the current situation to: Pathetic little whiners that shouldn't have been let out into the Big Scary Real World to begin with all complaining that we're horrible, nasty, evil Liberals with views that would make Ripley jump (you know, the guy who believed it when most would not). 
I just have to wonder how many of those people had less than ten posts when they whined, and how many have ten posts now- a few months or years later, after they complained and left immediately thereafter? I mean, even if 100 people sent complaints and left after a week of membership or less, shouldn't that have LESS an effect than 1000 people staying for five years or more and supporting the whole endeavor, morally if not fiscally? 

...God I don't know how long I've been around anymore. I found the place for the Library, way back when it was one page and really badly organized. 97 or 98 I think, before I was legal even, and that story collection was what I loved the most. Where else at the time could you find such a collection? Maybe four other places, most of which disappeared or mutated over the years, and have been replaced since with paysites and other garbage. Since Stuffed! Online (Frostbyte's old furry site) went the way of the dodo, this has been the place to be for the most part. It was rough, some of it was rude, but a lot of it was amazing. I kept coming back, rereading my favourites over and over again. 

This site is, for some people, their very first experience with the lifestyle, but the thing is, is it's kind of like a buffet: Some things you pile on, and some things you refuse to even touch the serving utensil. You don't like it, leave it alone. Try sommat else, moving the f* along with your life. Use CTRL+F to help yourself in this endeavor.
What would you actually do, ban the lemon meringue from the building just because you or your kid has a reaction to citrus? Or be a smart, safe person or parent and educate them or yourself in what's safe? Kind of like teaching or learning adult matters, right? 
Or is this a sore subject for some of you for more.... _personal_.... reasons? Like you were raised to expect the world handed to you just the way you want it? I've noticed a lot of people seem to think that, and really hate it when less delusional people point it out. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. Get over it.

Bottom line, censorship is bad for the same reasons buffets with two items (one soup, one salad, no bread or meat) on the menu are bad. Or like libraries with only two books are bad. I mean, really now.

I wonder what some of the chinless people that posted previously would say about furry gaining erotica. *keeps a weather eye out for the nails and cross* Cause that's another thing that would round out the library a bit more, I think. And after all, it IS fiction, and age is irrelevant to most furries- 1 year old does not mean infant to a cat, remember. Just young. And some people age their furry characters like animals instead of humans.
Now what?
I'm surprised you're not whinging about the magic/sci-fi/alien abduction stuff. Okay, force-feeding to death is probably not something that would get rave reviews, and probably deserves removed. I don't know, never read anything like that. Not into force-feeding. But for crying out loud, people, look at what is being allowed to remain compared to what's being removed. Some of those removals are probably deserved, but I'm reasonably sure that quite a few otherwise excellent stories are being lost due to twiddly technicalities, and I'm also sure that some of what is staying could get deleted without anyone really missing it. I can think of several dozen in the new additions section alone, but I don't think I have the right to tell anyone else what they're allowed to like- force feeding and celebrities, for example. Worse if the two are combined. But, other people like it. More of them than there are me. Why is it right for me to demand the removal of all such stories if I'm just one? Short answer: It's not. Same goes for everyone else who thinks censorship is a good thing.

For some reason, a couple lines from Fight Club stick in my head: "You were running around in ski masks, trying to blow things up?! What did you think was gonna happen?!"
...Seems like it fits the situation, oddly.
Oh, wait. That's a cult movie, I shouldn't talk about that. :doh:
You do NOT talk about Fight Club.

((And I've been wondering, since the beginning of this whole dungheap: Has anyone even ASKED Monique HERSELF if she'd mind her story being made available like that? If she minds, it's _kind of_ okay for people to get a bit defensive for her and stuff. Kind of. Like, "a little." Not "go 'round ripping everyone's head off for merely thinking of it." And obviously if she said no, leave it be. But if she's okay with sharing her story like that, wouldn't you feel stupid for making a donkey out of yourself as bad as you did for absolutely no reason? I know that was originally used as an example only, but it's still a good example, and a logical question.))


And I just HAVE to say to all you little Hitlers, you make me want to start cussing enough to get this post deleted. Pretentious, prissy, puffed-up, high-horse-riding, crap-not-stinking wankers. Go burn your books somewhere else; I'll defend ANY library in _technicolor_ if I have to, mine or not. It's called freedom of FUCKING speech, people. We have the right to say what we want, and we have the right to disagree. I do not see where that says ANYONE has the right to be a fart-collecting prig about what someone says or writes. And this is why I hate censorship: It is a violation of free speech, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who tries to censor reality is in league with the Devil. You canNOT make reality go away by shutting your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA YOU'RE NOT REAL LA LA LA". You'd probably get better results with chanting "Ia! Ia! R’lyeh - Cthulhu ftagn! Ia! Ia! Ia! Mglui naflftagn Dagon e Y’ha-nthlei!" a few times.
Let me guess: You peasants are the same people that ruined the porn industry because you think women are being "exploited" and that offends your feminist sensibilities. Just because you don't feel secure enough to be a porn star, don't go ruining it for the rest of us. Stuck-up khaki-wearers.
Oh, by the way: While you're shutting yourself in your filtered little box, make sure you don't watch any foreign films (that includes French/Spanish/Mexican romances, old kung-fu flicks that were filmed in the Orient, and no science fiction, anime, Red Dwarf, Monty Python, or other British comedies either), and stay away from art flicks. Oh, and nothing with sex in it. There's just too much LIFE in there for you. Now keep your foulness to yourself and STFU.


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## tankgirl

Tsap: 
Good luck with understanding us North Americans and other Englishers- we have some very strange behaviors, for the most part. 
I've heard English is actually a fairly difficult language to learn as a second language- any truth to that?
Know any other languages, if I can ask?
And further good luck being a mediator... This looks like another case of conservatives vs. liberals, and those are usually messy.

I (personally and not humbly, I won't lie) think the fastest solution would be to add an Adult Fiction section, and lump all the "true" and "true enough" and historical fiction stories there. These stories should have headers that have a summary containing any applicable warnings (underage references, for example) that show up on a mouse-over. This section should probably be restricted to realistic (per time period) stories and members-view only with its' own contribution section and a big disclaimer (you know, "I accept responsibility for my own actions" and all that) on your way in. Yes, it would be smallish, but I suspect that the "times viewed" numbers would tell their own story regarding popularity. What might add to the diversity of the section would be moving the _realistic_ erotica to that area as well. 
A reasonable requirement might be a certain word count- at least 10'000, say. Only three or four chapters of a shorter novel, some 2'500 to 3'000-some odd words to a chapter, but certainly a longer story around here. (A long novel is between 90'000 and 140'000 odd words on average. A chapter in said novels is between 3'000 and 6'500 words, depending on author. I'm reasonably sure that the longest story here is less than 90'000 words. R.L. Stine ((popular preteen/teen author)) books are something like 5'000 to 15'000 words total.)
I'd even help mod the darn thing. Heck, I'll help mod the entire library if my contribution would be appreciated by at least one person.
Anyway. That's my thought on the overall matter. The conservatives should be happy because it's off on its' own and not intruding past another story forum on the list, and the liberals would be happy just because it's actually there. 
*shrug*
Like you said, Tsap, I am only one.


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## Tsap

tankgirl said:


> Tsap:
> Good luck with understanding us North Americans and other Englishers- we have some very strange behaviors, for the most part.
> I've heard English is actually a fairly difficult language to learn as a second language- any truth to that?
> Know any other languages, if I can ask?
> And further good luck being a mediator... This looks like another case of conservatives vs. liberals, and those are usually messy.
> 
> I (personally and not humbly, I won't lie) think the fastest solution would be to add an Adult Fiction section, and lump all the "true" and "true enough" and historical fiction stories there. These stories should have headers that have a summary containing any applicable warnings (underage references, for example) that show up on a mouse-over. This section should probably be restricted to realistic (per time period) stories and members-view only with its' own contribution section and a big disclaimer (you know, "I accept responsibility for my own actions" and all that) on your way in. Yes, it would be smallish, but I suspect that the "times viewed" numbers would tell their own story regarding popularity. What might add to the diversity of the section would be moving the _realistic_ erotica to that area as well.
> A reasonable requirement might be a certain word count- at least 10'000, say. Only three or four chapters of a shorter novel, some 2'500 to 3'000-some odd words to a chapter, but certainly a longer story around here. (A long novel is between 90'000 and 140'000 odd words on average. A chapter in said novels is between 3'000 and 6'500 words, depending on author. I'm reasonably sure that the longest story here is less than 90'000 words. R.L. Stine ((popular preteen/teen author)) books are something like 5'000 to 15'000 words total.)
> I'd even help mod the darn thing. Heck, I'll help mod the entire library if my contribution would be appreciated by at least one person.
> Anyway. That's my thought on the overall matter. The conservatives should be happy because it's off on its' own and not intruding past another story forum on the list, and the liberals would be happy just because it's actually there.
> *shrug*
> Like you said, Tsap, I am only one.



Thanks tankgirl! 
Your answer above is what I expected.

About the difficulty in learning English as _second_ language I can't be certain, since I dabbled in it as my third one, but I tend to think English is among the easy ones - at the beginning! We foreigners get usually a fast start, learn a few sentences, perhaps even pronounce a few words more or less correctly - and just as we think we do pretty fine we realize what enormous amount of different expressions and nuances we should grasp! The sheer mass of just _words_ is staggering! I need to fall back to dictionary already composing my answers here - and when someone starts to use a bit finer vocabulary or some nice dialect I must slow down, carefully consider the context and even then be left in some stage of uncertainness. 
Well, considering the fact that my recent effort to express my own opinions without exessively insulting anyone was taken as an effort to intermediate, I am not convinced that it's so bad to not understand everything. 

Ok, serious thanks again - and about languages. I fluently speak two or three, use expressions from seven or more, but the real problem is always to understand what I am told. 

Only language I think I really understand is music, thus:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGK5MxyW4eg


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## katorade

LOL, too liberal for Hyde Park, to conservative for the Library.


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## Green Eyed Fairy

Tsap said:


> Peace would be good, because many forum-visitors probably shy away from perpetual bickering and loose their interest toward the site in general - but that was not my foremost worry.
> 
> IMHOP worrying without action is empty worrying, so I was asking if anyone knew realistic and working solution.
> 
> I have a nagging suspicion that unlike me some of those who write here, know exactly what should be done and what not. Instead of telling they seem to split hair, twist other peoples words and point out weaknesses in other folks logic and expressions, in spite of well grasping the meaning of sentences. That is what frets me and though I have now slowly started to understand reasons to such behavior I still can't find it too helpful.
> 
> I am reading and writing trough language-barrier. Yet I have read (not necessarily understood, lol) absolute majority of what still lies in Library and a good deal of the recent discussion about it. Otherwise I would not taken part in discussion here in the first place. Library is the reason why a good number of people are here. I am just one.



Not sure what all this has to do with my comment to Max's post .....

You seem to simply have a complaint. I guess you get to.....just like everyone else  


*shrugs*

Happy New Year


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## Tsap

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Not sure what all this has to do with my comment to Max's post .....
> 
> You seem to simply have a complaint. I guess you get to.....just like everyone else
> 
> 
> *shrugs*
> 
> Happy New Year




Yeah, you are correct. I wasn't referring as much to your comment as I probably should. Personally I find very interesting that I in general agree with Max and imagine that he introduced his thoughts in very clear and civilized manner.
And yea, I was complaining too, certainly! It is the easy way, like you pointed out, I think. Sorry about that.

Happy New Year, too!


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## Fascinita

katorade said:


> LOL, too liberal for Hyde Park, to conservative for the Library.



You whiner! Get some lifestyle fun in you, pronto, before I beat it into ya with my Fascisti d'il Trentacinque brass knuckles.


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