# Oh no, not Jennifer Hudson...



## KittyKitten (Apr 18, 2010)

Christakes, she looks like she is hungry. She will gain her original weight back. She looked so much more beautiful before the drastic weight loss.


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## LovelyLiz (Apr 18, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> Christakes, she looks like she is hungry. She will gain her original weight back. She looked so much more beautiful before the drastic weight loss.



I think she looks pretty smokin' in that photo. Maybe she *is* hungry...lol...but she looks super hot, just like she did before she lost any weight. She's someone who seems to be able to look lovely at any size.


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## mpls_girl26 (Apr 18, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> I think she looks pretty smokin' in that photo. Maybe she *is* hungry...lol...but she looks super hot, just like she did before she lost any weight. She's someone who seems to be able to look lovely at any size.



Except for those boots wanna be sandals. WTF is with those things? I have seen people walking around in those. How fugly.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 19, 2010)

mpls_girl26 said:


> Except for those boots wanna be sandals. WTF is with those things? I have seen people walking around in those. How fugly.


They're calling them shooties. Ugh. To each her own.
J Hudson is beautiful at any size and awesomely talented.


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## KittyKitten (Apr 19, 2010)

I guess the disappointment comes from the fact that she was my size before and now she has wittled down just because Hollyweird says so. She didn't need to lose anymore weight, she is a big star. 

She was one of my main role models for curvaceous women and now she and Toccara have to go down that weight loss route because of some idealistic bullshit imposed on them by Hollyweird.

F Hollywood and their hatred of sexy, curvaceous women! Only in Hollyweird do you see this crap of curvy women not being sexy. Most of the men I've encountered in daily life have no qualms with larger, more curvy women. I guess you can call me a Curvacist, I want to push for sexier bbws and us plumpers having more play in the mainstream media. 

I watch Nigerian (Nollywood) films with my father and notice the curvaceousness of the women in those films. Bollywood and middle eastern films also portray curvy women as romantic leads. But not Hollywood, for some reason.


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## DitzyBrunette (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't think we need to judge her for losing weight just as we don't need to be judged for gaining weight. If someone came up to you and said, "Gee happy, you looked so much prettier before you gained all that weight!" you'd be highly offended. She is beautiful now, she was beautiful before too. She isn't on TV telling us all to lose weight, she seems like one of the people who did it to feel comfortable with herself not to preach to everyone what to do with their bodies.


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## mszwebs (Apr 19, 2010)

DitzyBrunette said:


> I don't think we need to judge her for losing weight just as we don't need to be judged for gaining weight. If someone came up to you and said, "Gee happy, you looked so much prettier before you gained all that weight!" you'd be highly offended. She is beautiful now, she was beautiful before too. *She isn't on TV telling us all to lose weight, she seems like one of the people who did it to feel comfortable with herself not to preach to everyone what to do with their bodies.*



Actually, I'm pretty sure she's the new Weight Watcher's spokesperson...

So technically, she is?


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## Paquito (Apr 19, 2010)

mszwebs said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure she's the new Weight Watcher's spokesperson...
> 
> So technically, she is?



Yea, I've seen about 5 commercials with her promoting Weight Watchers. I don't even mind that, but some of the things she says in the ads make me cringe. Like how she now loves herself because she lost some weight. That's a great message for American youth.

*sorry that I'm a guy posting in the BBW forum, please remove if necessary.


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## DitzyBrunette (Apr 19, 2010)

mszwebs said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure she's the new Weight Watcher's spokesperson...
> 
> So technically, she is?



LOL, oopsie. Is she? I haven't seen any ads. Oh well, she's still pretty but if she becomes one of those bitchy former fat girls who thinks skinny is the only way to be then I recant my statement. If she goes the Queen Latifah route, like doing it to feel comfortable and not to preach, then I stick with what I said. 
(gonna google this now)


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## KittyKitten (Apr 19, 2010)

mszwebs said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure she's the new Weight Watcher's spokesperson...
> 
> So technically, she is?









The last time I saw her, she looked like this, but in that first picture I showed, she is very small. There was nothing wrong with her in these pictures. In fact she had already lost a lot of weight before both of these pictures.


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## DitzyBrunette (Apr 19, 2010)

free2beme04 said:


> I don't even mind that, but some of the things she says in the ads make me cringe. Like how she now loves herself because she lost some weight.



Is she really saying that????? :doh:


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## mossystate (Apr 19, 2010)

And how is this really a topic for this forum? I mean, isn't the main board the place for crying over spilt fat?


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## exile in thighville (Apr 19, 2010)

CELEBRITY CONSIDERED FAT LOSES WEIGHT SURPRISE


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 19, 2010)

Probably something along those lines. I tend to zone out whenever those kinds of commercials come on so I don't really hear the words. 
But really who cares if she loses weight or why? It's her body and she is just as free to dislike her body fat as anyone here is to like their body fat. To assume that the only reason she is losing weight is because of outside pressures is a bit of an insult to the woman. 
Maybe she just didn't like being fat and now that she has money she has the means to change that. 



DitzyBrunette said:


> Is she really saying that????? :doh:


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## Jes (Apr 19, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> I guess the disappointment comes from the fact that she was my size before and now she has wittled down just because Hollyweird says so.
> She was one of my main role models for curvaceous women .



With all due respect, I think you're gonna have to get over it. She hasn't done anything to you by losing weight. You can, and should, still feel like a valid human being, attractive inside and out, regardless of whether a total stranger in the public eye loses weight, gains weight, or sprouts a second head. You know what I mean? This all sounds like it's much more about you than it is about Jennifer Hudson or Hollywood. Deal with that--your positive strides and successes should reverberate much more deeply with you than Jennifer Hudson's decisions and waistline.


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## katherine22 (Apr 20, 2010)

Jes said:


> With all due respect, I think you're gonna have to get over it. She hasn't done anything to you by losing weight. You can, and should, still feel like a valid human being, attractive inside and out, regardless of whether a total stranger in the public eye loses weight, gains weight, or sprouts a second head. You know what I mean? This all sounds like it's much more about you than it is about Jennifer Hudson or Hollywood. Deal with that--your positive strides and successes should reverberate much more deeply with you than Jennifer Hudson's decisions and waistline.



All women who want to have a right to try their hand at thinness. She will figure out if it is a price that she wants to pay.


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## The Orange Mage (Apr 20, 2010)

Eh, so who wants to make some bets on how long it takes until we see Gabourey Sidibe take up a diet or WLS?


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## Nutty (Apr 20, 2010)

The Orange Mage said:


> Eh, so who wants to make some bets on how long it takes until we see Gabourey Sidibe take up a diet or WLS?



I wouldn't like that, but she can do what she wants to do with herself.


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## KittyKitten (Apr 20, 2010)

Nutty said:


> I wouldn't like that, but she can do what she wants to do with herself.



But she probably wouldn't do it for herself, that's the problem. It's from outside pressure and it shouldn't be like that.


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## Nutty (Apr 20, 2010)

Yeah stupid peer pressure . If shes truly happy the way she is, STAY!!!!! But if she isn't happy personally without outside influence, then by all means that girl should do whatever makes them happy!


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## kioewen (Apr 20, 2010)

exile in thighville said:


> CELEBRITY CONSIDERED FAT LOSES WEIGHT SURPRISE



Exactly. This is why it's always a lose-lose situation to cheer on any so-called "curvy" celebrities, because they're bound to turn around and lose weight in the future.

What's worse than the weight loss per se is that these celebrities invariably first play the "I love my curves" card for good PR, then turn around and rake in the diet-industry bucks.

I'd like to see just one celebrity who does the "I love my curves" spiel and means it, and tells any weight-loss company that comes knocking at her door with a dump-truck full of money to GET LOST.

As for Jennifer Hudson, I thought she wasn't particularly attractive before, and is even less attractive now. Just my opinion.


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## truebebeblue (Apr 20, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> But she probably wouldn't do it for herself, that's the problem. It's from outside pressure and it shouldn't be like that.





I think the point with all the women who lose as a response to industry or career pressure is that they must not be happy or secure with themselves in the first place if they are so easily pressured to change something like that. 
So one less unhappy fat girl is fine with me chances are we will see her again..perhaps older and wiser... and if dieting has much to do with it... fatter than ever!




True


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## LovelyLiz (Apr 20, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> But she probably wouldn't do it for herself, that's the problem. It's from outside pressure and it shouldn't be like that.



But the reality is, none of us lives in a vaccuum - and part of ALL of our decision making comes from our context and all the various ways we are connected in the world (friends, job, city, family, culture, etc). If someone wants a job in an industry that is obsessed with obsessing over people's bodies - that's their choice. Then if they decide that to be sane they want to be thinner within that industry - that's their choice too.

Yes, external pressures are a factor - but that's just part of life, right? None of us lives in a bubble by ourselves.


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## moniquessbbw (Apr 20, 2010)

Posts like these full of hate and judgement really upset me when I read them. What happened to size acceptance. Leave the woman alone accept her at any size. Her weight doesn't change the fact the she is am amazing artist. For the love of god get over it. Stop the judgement and stop the hate  it is just madness.


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## LisaInNC (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh for the love of gravy...If these stars wanna lose weight...who gives a fat babies ass. Do we REALLY need someone famous to be fat? Is that so we can say, "yeah i am fat, but so is jennifer hudson"? Then people will be like, "Oh yeah!! Thats right!! Then its ok that you are fat!" And really...she wasnt that big to begin with. A size 16 or so? Isnt that the average in America anyway?


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## exile in thighville (Apr 20, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> But she probably wouldn't do it for herself, that's the problem. It's from outside pressure and it shouldn't be like that.



you have no idea what it's "from" actually


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## Sensualbbwcurves (Apr 20, 2010)

Thin or fat
I personally think she's a beautiful woman...and I LOVE her voice.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> But she probably wouldn't do it for herself, that's the problem. It's from outside pressure and it shouldn't be like that.



How do you know its from outside pressures? You don't. You can guess but unless you've had a conversation with the woman or she's said in an interview somewhere that she wants to lose weight because people are pressuring her to you just can't know.

There are people who are just not happy being fat, it has nothing to do with what other people think of them, they are just not happy in their fat body.

They don't owe it to other fat people to remain fat if it makes them unhappy just so they can remain a role model.


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## Jes (Apr 20, 2010)

The Orange Mage said:


> Eh, so who wants to make some bets on how long it takes until we see Gabourey Sidibe take up a diet or WLS?



Let me officially state for the record that I don't give a shit if she does, doesn't, or sprouts a second head.


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## Jes (Apr 20, 2010)

moniquessbbw said:


> Posts like these full of hate and judgement really upset me when I read them. What happened to size acceptance. Leave the woman alone accept her at any size. Her weight doesn't change the fact the she is am amazing artist. For the love of god get over it. Stop the judgement and stop the hate  it is just madness.



Exactly. Well put. I think it's creepy when people say: How dare so-and-so listen to the media and make decisions based on what other people say! So-and-so should be listening to us and making decisions based on what WE say! 

Creeeepy.


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## Saoirse (Apr 20, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> There are people who are just not happy being fat, it has nothing to do with what other people think of them, they are just not happy in their fat body.
> 
> They don't owe it to other fat people to remain fat if it makes them unhappy just so they can remain a role model.



yupyup!:bow:


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 20, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> How do you know its from outside pressures? You don't. You can guess but unless you've had a conversation with the woman or she's said in an interview somewhere that she wants to lose weight because people are pressuring her to you just can't know.
> 
> There are people who are just not happy being fat, it has nothing to do with what other people think of them, they are just not happy in their fat body.
> 
> They don't owe it to other fat people to remain fat if it makes them unhappy just so they can remain a role model.



Yes. Some people are just no happy being fat, but can we say with certainly how much the outside world affects our views of their bodies? How can we say with certainly that how we feel about our bodies are completely uninfluenced by others? 

If she is really unhappy with her body, the question is why. Being an actress in Hollywood it is a good bet that it is because people around her are pressuring and making things hard for her because of her weight. 

We seen people who were fat and happy until they got famous, then they say that they wanted to lost weight all along. 

Secondly, she do not owe it us but herself, to be who she is, and not be someone she is not.


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## Paquito (Apr 20, 2010)

I'd rather have a happy fat person in Hollywood than an unhappy fat person who's just maintaining a higher weight because they feel pressured to be a role model for larger people. So if Hudson isn't happy with her weight, then lose it.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> If she is really unhappy with her body, the question is why. Being an actress in Hollywood it is a good bet that it is because people around her are pressuring and making things hard for her because of her weight.
> .



Are you fat? Do you know what it feels like to lug around 100 or more extra pounds? To hope that when you sit those 100 or more extra pounds down that the chair isn't gonna crack or break. Or that you won't get stuck while trying to get out of that chair. How about buying clothes? That's a whole monster in and of itself, the ones that fit are usually ugly and the ones that aren't ugly cost an arm and a leg. So being fat isn't all rainbows and cupcakes, and sometimes it just sucks, whether you like your body or don't. 

I'm sure people are pressuring her to lose weight, women here get pressured all the time to lose weight by the people in their lives. To assume that the only reason she is losing or did lose weight is because of that pressure is an insult to her.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 20, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Are you fat? Do you know what it feels like to lug around 100 or more extra pounds? To hope that when you sit those 100 or more extra pounds down that the chair isn't gonna crack or break. Or that you won't get stuck while trying to get out of that chair. How about buying clothes? That's a whole monster in and of itself, the ones that fit are usually ugly and the ones that aren't ugly cost an arm and a leg. So being fat isn't all rainbows and cupcakes, and sometimes it just sucks, whether you like your body or don't.
> 
> I'm sure people are pressuring her to lose weight, women here get pressured all the time to lose weight by the people in their lives. To assume that the only reason she is losing or did lose weight is because of that pressure is an insult to her.



I am 350 pounds, I have to shop at big and tall stores. And, yes I am worried when I put my weight on anything, or have to get my ass into any theater or airplane seat! And, while I might not know what it is like to be fat and female I do know about be pressuring to lose weight. 

How am I insulting her by stating that she most likely a causality of the anti-fat environment? 

And if it was an insult, is it worse insult to assume that she is being pressured into it, than to not offer her our support encase she is?


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am 350 pounds, I have to shop at big and tall stores. And, yes I am worried when I put my weight on anything, or have to get my ass into any theater or airplane seat! And, while I might not know what it is like to be fat and female I do know about be pressuring to lose weight.



Then you do understand that there are lots of reasons why reasonable people want to lose weight, and that it doesn't make them a tool or a victim or anything like that.

Also, I warrant that you're taller and have a bigger build than Jennifer. My hubby Burtimus has carried extra poundage for years and other than some minor complaints he's done fine with it. Me, OTOH? Because I'm only 5'3", even a moderate amount of weight by FA standards was well on the way of obliterating my mobility.



> How am I insulting her by stating that she most likely a causality of the anti-fat environment?



I can't speak for anyone else but I think it's insulting to make assumptions about why people do things. Someone's relationship with their body and their fat is a unique thing, and very personal to them. She may well be a casualty of our culture -- we all are. But it's also equally possible that she opted to lose weight for many other intensely personal reasons that have nothing to do with Hollywood. Making the assumption that her weight loss is because of that while not unreasonable doesn't tell the whole story and minimizes what is for most a very complicated issue.

Does that make sense? 



> And if it was an insult, is it worse insult to assume that she is being pressured into it, than to not offer her our support encase she is?



Can't we offer her support without deciding for her why she wants to lose weight? 

I absolutely support her desire to make decisions about her body, and I do that without needing to know why she chose to do it. Maybe she wants a smaller ass because she likes smaller asses. Who knows? But it's her body and as such it's her choice. Even if I don't understand it, I still support her right to make that decision for herself.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am 350 pounds, I have to shop at big and tall stores. And, yes I am worried when I put my weight on anything, or have to get my ass into any theater or airplane seat! And, while I might not know what it is like to be fat and female I do know about be pressuring to lose weight.
> 
> How am I insulting her by stating that she most likely a causality of the anti-fat environment?
> 
> And if it was an insult, is it worse insult to assume that she is being pressured into it, than to not offer her our support encase she is?



Support is great, it should be offered to everyone, even those that choose to lose weight in order to fit some unobtainable ideal especially since most diets fail. 

Are you happy everyday in your fat body? If you were to decide tomorrow that you wanted to lose 100 pounds how would you feel if everyone around here decided that it was because of outside pressures instead of it just being a decision you made for yourself?


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## disconnectedsmile (Apr 20, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> To assume that the only reason she is losing or did lose weight is because of that pressure is an insult to her.



to assume the unlikelihood that she lost weight because of pressure is naivety.


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## Weeze (Apr 20, 2010)

I love it when people that aren't fat tell fat people how they should feel. LOVE IT.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

disconnectedsmile said:


> to assume the unlikelihood that she lost weight because of pressure is naivety.



I'm not naive. I know that lots of people lose weight because of outside pressures. I just don't go around assuming that everyone chooses to lose weight because society tells people that only thin is beautiful.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 20, 2010)

Weeze said:


> I love it when people that aren't fat tell fat people how they should feel. LOVE IT.


I love it when people tell ANYONE how they should feel.


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## LovelyLiz (Apr 20, 2010)

Someone can make the decision to lose weight for herself, and this can still be partly due to societal pressures. It's not a mutually exclusive thing, since we all live in society and can't escape that reality. That doesn't make it a better or worse basis for the decision, I just don't feel like it's a realistic depiction of anyone's decisions about pretty much anything to say that it was just a decision they made in a vaccuum unrelated to anywhere they came from, any values/priorities they have come to have through society/family/friends, etc. I feel like that's just the reality of our world, and we're all making our decisions and operating within it as best we can.

Let's say Jennifer Hudson did lose weight 100% due to societal pressures alone. Even if that's true (which I doubt, tho I think it was likely a big part of it), I certainly don't fault her for not wanting to deal with society's BS that gets heaped on women who don't look a certain way. If she wanted to lose weight to get that off her back for a while, is that really the worst thing ever?


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> Someone can make the decision to lose weight for herself, and this can still be partly due to societal pressures. It's not a mutually exclusive thing, since we all live in society and can't escape that reality. That doesn't make it a better or worse basis for the decision, I just don't feel like it's a realistic depiction of anyone's decisions about pretty much anything to say that it was just a decision they made in a vaccuum unrelated to anywhere they came from, any values/priorities they have come to have through society/family/friends, etc. I feel like that's just the reality of our world, and we're all making our decisions and operating within it as best we can.
> 
> Let's say Jennifer Hudson did lose weight 100% due to societal pressures alone. Even if that's true (which I doubt, tho I think it was likely a big part of it), I certainly don't fault her for not wanting to deal with society's BS that gets heaped on women who don't look a certain way. If she wanted to lose weight to get that off her back for a while, is that really the worst thing ever?



According to some people here it is. That's what I have an issue with, that and the idea that the decision was based soley on the idea that society has that only thing people are beautiful or worthwile.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 20, 2010)

Nobody lives in a vacuum. Pressure to lose weight, or change ANYTHING to be more thin, more young, more beautiful, like air, is everywhere.

Fat actors choose to be in a profession and reside in a world where one good juicy job is a competition between hundreds of talented people with a dream. And that competition is fierce and cut-throat. People will and have done anything to be the most superior desirable specimen of whatever celebrity-dom's whim is for the day. 

Hollywood is a dog eat dog world and in order to succeed you have to have a knife and fork in your pocket. It is a parade of shattered dreams and self-delusion. 

Even if the very characteristics that enabled them to stand head and shoulders above the yearning masses was relevant enough to get them there, because of the necessity and desire and ambition to be visible to continue working, they will shed those characteristics. 

I can neither condemn nor condone because I don't live in that world and they don't need my approval.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 20, 2010)

I think the expectation here, by some anyway, is that we should just "suck it up" when it comes to societal pressures (and, indeed, health and mobility issues as well), in order to be true to the cause. It's only been fairly in the history of Dimensions that discussing weight loss was okay at ALL, and only then if our health problems were deemed serious enough to warrant it.

I personally think it's unfair that we as a culture place pressure on someone to change their body in order to be acceptable. But the reality is that as a group we do, something that makes me sad.

She should be able to make whatever decision she wants for her own body, and should no more be judged for losing weight than we should be for gaining it. Weight should, in my opinion, be neutral, at least when it comes to placing value on an individual. Sure we can't ignore the very real health problems that it can pose, but that doesn't make the person any more or less deserving of love, acceptance or support.


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## LovelyLiz (Apr 20, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> According to some people here it is. That's what I have an issue with, that and the idea that the decision was based soley on the idea that society has that only thing people are beautiful or worthwile.



Yeah. I can see that point of view _in a way_. (I mean, the one where someone who loses weight due to "social pressures" is a sellout or something.) It seems like people are more okay with someone choosing to lose weight if it's impeding mobility or something health-related, but not to deal with what can be horrible treatment on psychological or emotional levels. 

And yeah, maybe in a perfect world all of us fat women could stand up and say to all the haters "I don't care what you say! I am awesome!" and truly believe that. But there are so many other things to take care of in life - jobs, marriages/relationships, friendships, hobbies, paying rent, dealing with issues - if someone wants a break from some of the vitriol they experience due to their weight, I don't really fault them for that. We can all only take so much and we have to make choices. (And honestly, I experience very little of that, especially compared to someone in the public eye where thousands of internet trolls and "journalists" can constantly berate someone's weight or appearance.)


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 20, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Then you do understand that there are lots of reasons why reasonable people want to lose weight, and that it doesn't make them a tool or a victim or anything like that.
> 
> Also, I warrant that you're taller and have a bigger build than Jennifer. My hubby Burtimus has carried extra poundage for years and other than some minor complaints he's done fine with it. Me, OTOH? Because I'm only 5'3", even a moderate amount of weight by FA standards was well on the way of obliterating my mobility.
> 
> ...



But, at the same time we can not assume that she made her own decision about her own body either. 

By the way, yes we can offer her support without deciding for her why she wants to lose weight, because we are only offering our support, not force our support upon her.



fatgirlflyin said:


> Support is great, it should be offered to everyone, even those that choose to lose weight in order to fit some unobtainable ideal especially since most diets fail.
> 
> Are you happy everyday in your fat body? If you were to decide tomorrow that you wanted to lose 100 pounds how would you feel if everyone around here decided that it was because of outside pressures instead of it just being a decision you made for yourself?



But, there is no clear cut answer to that. 

I would hope that if I was in the situation that the people close to me would at least esquire about it, if I have not talked to them about it before. Why would it be such a private matter? 

Let say my wife suddenly comes up to me, and says that she is thinking about cosmetic surgery. Am I only allowed to say "You body your decision." and go with the flow? Or, am I at least afforded the ability to at least ask why she thinks she need the surgery?


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> But, at the same time we can not assume that she made her own decision about her own body either.



Wait... whaaaahhh? If she didn't make her own decision, then who did? Last I checked, this is 2010 in the US of A, and women are afforded at least that much in the way of control over their own bodies. Yes, she's no doubt influenced, as we all are, by her surrounding culture. But ultimately the decision is hers, since slavery is abolished and there is no Sharia law.



> By the way, yes we can offer her support without deciding for her why she wants to lose weight, because we are only offering our support, not force our support upon her.



I agree. However, this thing you said back here...



> And if it was an insult, is it worse insult to assume that she is being pressured into it, than to not offer her our support encase she is?



... implied, if not stated outright, that support was somehow conditional on whether or not she was pressured to lose weight. My apologies if I misunderstood.



> Am I only allowed to say "You body your decision." and go with the flow? Or, am I at least afforded the ability to at least ask why she thinks she need the surgery?



As a husband, you'd be in a very precarious place when it comes to this stuff. I'd advise you take a page from Burtimus's book when I was facing these issues after my WLS. Listen, be supportive, ask questions without challenging and try not to have an agenda about another person's body. If you're asked your opinion, share it respectfully. If you're not asked, don't offer it. Seriously, for your own health and safety , just.... don't.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> But, at the same time we can not assume that she made her own decision about her own body either.
> 
> By the way, yes we can offer her support without deciding for her why she wants to lose weight, because we are only offering our support, not force our support upon her.
> 
> ...



Ask is the operative word here. Nobody here has ASKED Jennifer Hudson why she's losing weight. Just lots of assumptions floating around, even on my part by assuming she's losing weight because she just wants to.


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## Jes (Apr 20, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> According to some people here it is. .



Don't be silly, FGF. We all know that no one here makes any kind of concession or lives in any kind of closet...

oh, right.


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## Saoirse (Apr 20, 2010)

Im just going to assume that people are assuming a lot about other people.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 20, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Wait... whaaaahhh? If she didn't make her own decision, then who did? Last I checked, this is 2010 in the US of A, and women are afforded at least that much in the way of control over their own bodies. Yes, she's no doubt influenced, as we all are, by her surrounding culture. But ultimately the decision is hers, since slavery is abolished and there is no Sharia law.
> 
> I agree. However, this thing you said back here...
> 
> ...



You seem to have confused where I said offer unconditional support with offer opinion. As in inform her, that the option is available.

Secondly, you seems to never heard of being pressure or bullied into a decision.

And, shouldn't I be offended that as a man, you assume that my opinion about my wife's body is shallow and based on an agenda.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> You seem to have confused where I said offer unconditional support with offer opinion. As in inform her, that the option is available.
> 
> Secondly, you seems to never heard of being pressure or bullied into a decision.
> 
> And, shouldn't I be offended that as a man, you assume that my opinion about my wife's body is shallow and based on an agenda.



Woah. Talk about making huge assumptions about someone. You've accomplished that with each of your points -- brah-voh!

I'm outta here. I was hoping for a little adult conversation, but clearly I should go back to Hyde Park. I don't have time for this kind of deliberate obtuseness and over the top defensiveness. I was trying to have a discussion where we could learn a little from each other. Boy was *I* barking up the wrong tree.

Have a super day.


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## disconnectedsmile (Apr 20, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> If you're asked your opinion, share it respectfully. If you're not asked, don't offer it. Seriously, for your own health and safety , just.... don't.


if we didn't all share opinions, this would be a very boring message board.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 20, 2010)

disconnectedsmile said:


> if we didn't all share opinions, this would be a very boring message board.



Um. Context? Read my whole post, and what I was responding to. I was in no way talking about a topic on a message board, and if you took the time to read what was written, you'd know that. 

He asked what I thought at the time was a legitimate question about how to handle his wife's theoretical desire to have plastic surgery. My response was in that vein, and had nothing to do with discussing something here. :doh:

Good grief.


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## Nutty (Apr 20, 2010)

I have been thinking and Hudson should just do whatever she wants cause it is her body, not anyone else's.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 20, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Woah. Talk about making huge assumptions about someone. You've accomplished that with each of your points -- brah-voh!
> 
> I'm outta here. I was hoping for a little adult conversation, but clearly I should go back to Hyde Park. I don't have time for this kind of deliberate obtuseness and over the top defensiveness. I was trying to have a discussion where we could learn a little from each other. Boy was *I* barking up the wrong tree.
> 
> Have a super day.



Wait...What???? When did I get obtuseness and over the top defensive?

I was offended that as a spouse that my opinion is not welcome if not asked for. As you stated when you said "If you're not asked, don't offer it.".

What kind of spouse would I be, if I do not express my concern for my wife's well being unprompted?


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Let say my wife suddenly comes up to me, and says that she is thinking about cosmetic surgery. Am I only allowed to say "You body your decision." and go with the flow? Or, am I at least afforded the ability to at least ask why she thinks she need the surgery?




I think a loved one expressing their concern over someone having surgery is a bit different than complete strangers speculating why a celebrity is losing weight. 

Now, I certainly can't tell you what should or shouldn't happen in your marriage, but I don't feel it would be inappropriate for you to voice concern if your wife wanted to have surgery. It wouldn't be your choice, but as someone that loves her and cares about her well being I think it stands within reason that you would want to discuss it. 

Jennifer Hudson is married too, and was with the guy while she was quite a bit bigger than she is now. He most likely enjoyed her body just as it was and I'm sure he has an opinion on her weight loss, and has probably voiced it.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 20, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Wait...What???? When did I get obtuseness and over the top defensive?



Here's the thing. You (deliberately?) misunderstood what I said and got defensive, instead of clarifying. Further, may I remind you that you asked what I thought, and I shared my experience -- from the perspective of someone who's actually navigated these waters, which few people here have. You then assumed that I thought you were a jerk for stating your opinion about your wife's hypothetical surgery (I didn't). I think the words you used were "shallow" and "based on an agenda". I never ever said those things about you, nor do I think them. 

I was, in fact, speaking broadly, because I know far too many women who felt pressured to have (or not have) surgery; I was so blessed to have such incredible support that I thought that sharing my experience might help. I think your response was overly defensive, and yes, obtuse, because you didn't read what I wrote but rather chose to take it in a way it wasn't intended. You took it as an affront when none was meant at ALL. If you think my experience is wrong, and it won't work for you, that's great. Say that. But I think you can do it without insulting me. 

On the off chance that you're interested in what I was saying, and despite a strong desire not to talk about this anymore since it's completely unrelated to the topic at hand, I'll clarify. I admit I wasn't entirely clear and was being a little tongue in cheek because I was trying to avoid this. But what the heck.

The best thing about my marriage in general, and specifically about my decision to have plastic surgery (and heck, WLS, for that matter), I knew that no matter what I decided, I had full and total support from my mate. My husband was incredible with me, and I never felt anything but loved, supported, and he was a real trooper with me. If you have more questions from a partner's perspective, feel free to PM him.

This is what I experienced:

He reiterated to me many times that it was my decision and that he would support it no matter what. 
When I'd ask him if he'd prefer me a certain way, he very wisely said he had no preference. (I say this because no matter what a guy says that is a better/worse scenario, he will never win and he will likely hurt the woman in question. It's the whole "does this dress make my butt look fat" scenario).
He told me repeatedly that he loved how I looked and that I never needed to do it for him
When I asked him what he thought he again reiterated how hot I was (smart man!) but that if I wanted to do this to feel better about myself, he was behind me.
And when I ask him, "Don't I look better now?" he wisely tells me how beautiful I was, how gorgeous I am, and that my increased confidence is very sexy to him.
Oh, and when I did have complications? When I had open wounds for months that made me cry when he changed the dressing and debrided them? When I felt like the ugliest thing on earth and like I'd never heal? When the pain was such that I couldn't catch my breath? He never EVER said I made the wrong decision. He never made me feel bad. He never was anything but loving and supportive and caring. 

That is what I was trying to say. The reason I encourage you not to offer your opinion is first of all, she will ask you your opinion, I promise. By offering it, whether pro or con, then whatever decision she makes -- about her body -- will have a certain context of being "for you". Women as a rule are very sensitive about our appearance and want to be attractive to our mate. If you say she should or shouldn't do it, then no matter what she decides, you will be to some extent responsible, either for preventing her from doing it, or she may perceive that you're pushing her into it.

I was just trying to save you some grief. Discussing it -- listening, asking questions, expressing concern in a respectful way -- is a far cry from saying she should or shouldn't do it, especially before she's ready to hear your opinion. 

This is my opinion. It may or may not be relevant in your life, but it's how it worked with us.

And.... it's totally unrelated to the topic at hand.

/topic.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 20, 2010)

Not totally unrelated and a worthy read.
I did not have WLS but I dieted to such an extreme that it caused severe complications and awakened a dormant condition that were all very similar to everything you described and my husband cleaned my wounds (and debrid them) and when I cried and felt like a monster, he held me and supported me as well. He slept next to my hospital bed for weeks on end and fought with doctors and specialists when I was too medicated to know who I even was.
The point being that I have to agree that whatever the wife decides, she has to know you have her back and if you have reservations you better tell her now.


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## Nutty (Apr 20, 2010)

CastingPearls said:


> Not totally unrelated and a worthy read.
> I did not have WLS but I dieted to such an extreme that it caused severe complications and awakened a dormant condition that were all very similar to everything you described and my husband cleaned my wounds (and debrid them) and when I cried and felt like a monster, he held me and supported me as well. He slept next to my hospital bed for weeks on end and fought with doctors and specialists when I was too medicated to know who I even was.
> The point being that I have to agree that whatever the wife decides, she has to know you have her back and if you have reservations you better tell her now.



I wish I could rep that. Im glad your feeling better and have such a good husband.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 21, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> I think a loved one expressing their concern over someone having surgery is a bit different than complete strangers speculating why a celebrity is losing weight.
> 
> Now, I certainly can't tell you what should or shouldn't happen in your marriage, but I don't feel it would be inappropriate for you to voice concern if your wife wanted to have surgery. It wouldn't be your choice, but as someone that loves her and cares about her well being I think it stands within reason that you would want to discuss it.
> 
> Jennifer Hudson is married too, and was with the guy while she was quite a bit bigger than she is now. He most likely enjoyed her body just as it was and I'm sure he has an opinion on her weight loss, and has probably voiced it.



I am sorry for misunderstanding you posts, what I was original trying to get at was that as a support group, that we could be approaching people like Jennifer Hudson, so they are aware of us. And, I would of course respect her decision if she turn SA down and loses the weight anyway. I hope that came out right. 



Miss Vickie said:


> Here's the thing. You (deliberately?) misunderstood what I said and got defensive, instead of clarifying. Further, may I remind you that you asked what I thought, and I shared my experience -- from the perspective of someone who's actually navigated these waters, which few people here have. You then assumed that I thought you were a jerk for stating your opinion about your wife's hypothetical surgery (I didn't). I think the words you used were "shallow" and "based on an agenda". I never ever said those things about you, nor do I think them.
> 
> I was, in fact, speaking broadly, because I know far too many women who felt pressured to have (or not have) surgery; I was so blessed to have such incredible support that I thought that sharing my experience might help. I think your response was overly defensive, and yes, obtuse, because you didn't read what I wrote but rather chose to take it in a way it wasn't intended. You took it as an affront when none was meant at ALL. If you think my experience is wrong, and it won't work for you, that's great. Say that. But I think you can do it without insulting me.
> 
> ...



I am so sorry for taking your post out of context. I admit that in the heated discussion I read too much into your posts, and filling in the blanks incorrectly, and I apologize for that.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 21, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am sorry for misunderstanding you posts, what I was original trying to get at was that as a support group, that we could be approaching people like Jennifer Hudson, so they are aware of us. And, I would of course respect her decision if she turn SA down and loses the weight anyway. I hope that came out right.
> 
> 
> 
> I am so sorry for taking your post out of context. I admit that in the heated discussion I read too much into your posts, and filling in the blanks incorrectly, and I apologize for that.



Thanks for the apology, and don't give it another thought. It's okay. I wasn't being specific enough -- I apparently expected you to read my mind. It's just that I know I can be kind of.... erm.... wordy and was trying, for once in my life, to be a little more concise. That'll teach me! Apparently it does take me 1000 words to explain what most people can do in 10.

Thanks for revisiting what I said, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## cherylharrell (Apr 22, 2010)

I saw the ads. To me she looks better bigger. Wish she wouldn't let pressure cause her to want to be thin. She needs to be told she is beautiful as is at her big size...


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## CharDonnay (Apr 22, 2010)

Its Hollywood it was bound to happen.


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## Jes (Apr 22, 2010)

cherylharrell said:


> I saw the ads. To me she looks better bigger. Wish she wouldn't let pressure cause her to want to be thin. She needs to be told she is beautiful as is at her big size...



she should wear a big pink pants suit and carry a parasol!


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## That Guy You Met Once (Apr 22, 2010)

cherylharrell said:


> I saw the ads. To me she looks better bigger. Wish she wouldn't let pressure cause her to want to be thin. She needs to be told she is beautiful as is at her big size...



I'm pretty sure her fandom gave her plenty of that.

If, for some reason, she really disliked her former weight enough to lose it, then good for her. People who *truly* don't enjoy being fat should have free reign to do that.


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## KittyKitten (Apr 23, 2010)

I think what makes me upset is that in today's media, you can have different face shapes, hair colors, even skin colors, but for some reason, there is no diversity in body shapes and sizes. That is so weird to me. I know I'm attractive and I get stares from men, but this crap nudges at me sometimes. 

From size 2 to size 20, I always hear women bitching about eating a piece of cake "Oh this is not good for me, I'm trying to lose weight". Just eat the damn cake! 
This body hatred of women is one of the main reasons I have few female friends. I don't want that self hatred rubbing off on me.


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## MissStacie (Apr 23, 2010)

all fat people/celebrities consulted with NAAFA before embarking on any weight loss program/surgery.

Come on, people...who CARES if she lost weight and/or why?? Maybe she had health issues...maybe she's got a family history of heart disease/diabetes, etc...maybe she was having joint issues....maybe she did it for her career(and we all know that sometimes we alter our lives for the sake of our chosen careers!), or maybe she did it so that she could wear certain clothes....

Does it really matter why? It burns me that our community is so fucking horned up and championing for SSBBW/SSBHM, BBW/BHM, etc that when someone choses to lose, they get all up in arms and think its a bad thing. As someone said previously, fat is not all cupcakes and rainbows. Its a daily chore sometimes, and regardless of whether you are mentally accepting and happy with yourself or not, sometimes its just a plain bitch to be fat.

OH..and by the way? Weight Watchers is a VERY healthy way to do it, if you are going to lose extra YOU....I'm just sayin...


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## Jes (Apr 23, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> there is no diversity in body shapes and sizes. That is so weird to me. I know I'm attractive and I get stares from men, but this crap nudges at me sometimes.
> .



I fully agree with you here. I really like the diversity that's all around us. Not just for the PC angle, but for the fact that it makes life interesting, culturally and visually too!

There's a commercial I see on tv now and then. It depicts a real family that has taken a kind of ...'dinner challenge' from Stouffers. As I recall, Stouffers ran or is running a 'eat dinner at home with your family and bond' thing. Obviously, they're hawking their own products, and saying they're easy to pop in the oven and it may be more realistic to bake something pre-made than make it yourself, when both parents work outside the home, etc.

And the family shown is normal. Average. The dad has a gut. Think about that. The dad has a gut. And it's a FOOD commercial. In today's OBESITY EPIDEMIC day and age. It's really refreshing. 

I recall some years ago, they had another ad, about a couple, or a family and the woman (an actress I think) was a violin player. And she was a good size 14. And she went home and ate her Stouffers. i was really quite amazed that, of any product out there, a food company would use an average-sized, middle-aged model to depict a consumer of their food. In a way, it's really revolutionary.

I've been meaning to write Stouffers a letter. Mmmm. French bread pizza!


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 23, 2010)

MissStacie said:


> all fat people/celebrities consulted with NAAFA before embarking on any weight loss program/surgery.
> 
> Come on, people...who CARES if she lost weight and/or why?? Maybe she had health issues...maybe she's got a family history of heart disease/diabetes, etc...maybe she was having joint issues....maybe she did it for her career(and we all know that sometimes we alter our lives for the sake of our chosen careers!), or maybe she did it so that she could wear certain clothes....
> 
> ...



Yes, we should respect a person right to choose to lose weight, specially for health. And, I recognize that there are cases where being fat is not a bowel of cherries. 

But, I think that problem is that our community feel so under represented in media, that when someone in the media like Hudson loses weight, we feel betrayed. Add talk about actresses having a higher that normal requirement to be thin, and you can see where ideas of foul-play comes from.

But most important is that fact, that the whole SA movement is based on the idea of improving the quality of life for fat people. So the point of it all is so people will not have to choice to lose weight for career or, to wear certain clothes. So, while respecting a person right to lose weight for career or fashion, the fact that one still need to make that choice, feels like a failure to some in the community. 

So simply put, to some we feel that we failed Jennifer Hudson.


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## phoenix92901 (Apr 23, 2010)

Maybe, just maybe it wasn't Hollywood pressure but wanting to be healthy and around for her child. Whatever, the reason, she looks fabulous at any size, in MHO. Just saying...


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## LovelyLiz (Apr 23, 2010)

phoenix92901 said:


> Maybe, just maybe it wasn't Hollywood pressure but wanting to be healthy and around for her child. Whatever, the reason, she looks fabulous at any size, in MHO. Just saying...



I'm all for people being healthy, and being whatever body size they choose to be...but I feel like this statement about "being around for her child" when Jennifer Hudson was only a bit chubby is outlandish. My mom was fatter than Jennifer Hudson, and was (and is) around for me. Good parents and healthy parents come in all sizes. Not sure where you were coming from here.


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## gangstadawg (Apr 24, 2010)

Nutty said:


> I have been thinking and Hudson should just do whatever she wants cause it is her body, not anyone else's.



i feel some what like that. what ever a decision a person makes about there body or whatever else is there own decision. sucks you cant really influence it but be glad that if there is a consequences from that decision its that person problem not yours.


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## MissStacie (Apr 25, 2010)

> But, I think that problem is that our community feel so under represented in media, that when someone in the media like Hudson loses weight, *we feel betrayed. *Add talk about actresses having a higher that normal requirement to be thin, and you can see where ideas of foul-play comes from.
> 
> But most important is that fact, that the whole SA movement is based on the idea of improving the quality of life for fat people. So the point of it all is so people will not have to choice to lose weight for career or, to wear certain clothes. So, while respecting a person right to lose weight for career or fashion, the fact that one still need to make that choice, feels like a failure to some in the community.
> 
> ...


**********************************************************
*The Definition of "betrayal" or "betray":

To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.

or:

To be false or disloyal to.*

I don't think that we can put Jennifer Hudson in the same catagory as Benedict Arnold or The Unabomber. She didn't commit treason, she just dropped a few lbs....big deal?

She's also not being disloyal. She NEVER came out as a representative of NAAFA or, Camryn Manheim, shouting "This one is for all the fat girls!" when she won her Oscar. She doesn't owe us a damned thing...she doesn't represent anyone but herself...plain and simple

If you "feel that we failed Jennifer" is because you CHOSE to. I don't feel we failed her, because I have nothing to do with it. She doesn't know who I am, and likely doesn't care. Just as it should be, when you think about it.


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## calauria (Apr 25, 2010)

well, it is her decision to do what she wants with her body. the only problem i would have with someone who lost weight is if they start treating those of us who are fat inferior.


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## gangstadawg (Apr 25, 2010)

calauria said:


> well, it is her decision to do what she wants with her body. the only problem i would have with someone who lost weight is if they start treating those of us who are fat inferior.



give her time that may or may not happen but she already is a spokes person for a weightloss brand.


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## Johnny718Bravo (Apr 25, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> Christakes, she looks like she is hungry. She will gain her original weight back. She looked so much more beautiful before the drastic weight loss.



Another one down. Such a shame and a waste.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 25, 2010)

Johnny718Bravo said:


> Another one down. Such a shame and a waste.



Why? Because she's no longer attractive to _you_? Because she took control of her own body, made a decision about what she wanted, and worked like hell to get there? Sure, maybe you think she looks better fat. And that's great. Go, you. Go, FA's. I'm glad you're there to love on the women who are fat and who want to stay fat. But maybe she didn't love being fat. Maybe she didn't want to be fat anymore. Maybe what made her fat was eating unhealthily and she wanted to stop doing that. We will never know. But isn't what she thinks about her own body what's most important?

Now granted, if someone locked her in a room, put a lock and chain on her fridge (as was done to my mom when she was a child), and wouldn't let her eat anything but tiny portions of iceberg lettuce and celery, then yes, that would be a shame.

But given that Weight Watchers is a reasonable way for an adult person to drop a few pounds, and she is proud of herself for accomplishing what for most of us is damn near impossible, how is that hardly a "shame"?

I'm unconvinced.


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## mossystate (Apr 25, 2010)

A waste? For whom? She lost weight...she didn't die. Would you rather know she was not loving the weight she was at, hoping that she did nothing about it ? Would you prefer not to know, and just enjoy the scenery, blissfully unaware ? 

Gah. Another one down? She was living in her body...not you...not me...not that person over there.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 25, 2010)

I don't think she owes us anything.

Because she was a BBW she was automatically in our 'club' but who knows if she wanted to be in it in the first place. She may have been struggling with it her entire life. We don't know. 

I understand the feelings of betrayal but she wasn't the betrayer--that's the perceptions of the betrayee, as it were.

I'd rather she be happy at whatever size she is.


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## Jes (Apr 25, 2010)

Johnny718Bravo said:


> Another one down. Such a shame and a waste.



If fat is so grand for everyone, Johnny, can I assume you're fat? 
To all who think fatter is better, are all of you fat, too? If not, why not?


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## DitzyBrunette (Apr 25, 2010)

Jes said:


> If fat is so grand for everyone, Johnny, can I assume you're fat?
> To all who think fatter is better, are all of you fat, too? If not, why not?



Would also love to see this answered..


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## Jes (Apr 26, 2010)

still waiting. I would really like to know if you're fat, Johnny, and if so, why and if not, why. We're talking about personal motivations for being fat, or being not fat, so I think it's a fair question.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 26, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Why? Because she's no longer attractive to _you_? Because she took control of her own body, made a decision about what she wanted, and worked like hell to get there? Sure, maybe you think she looks better fat. And that's great. Go, you. Go, FA's. I'm glad you're there to love on the women who are fat and who want to stay fat. But maybe she didn't love being fat. Maybe she didn't want to be fat anymore. Maybe what made her fat was eating unhealthily and she wanted to stop doing that. We will never know. But isn't what she thinks about her own body what's most important?
> 
> Now granted, if someone locked her in a room, put a lock and chain on her fridge (as was done to my mom when she was a child), and wouldn't let her eat anything but tiny portions of iceberg lettuce and celery, then yes, that would be a shame.
> 
> ...



And, how do we know that it was really her choice? Yes, nobody locked her in a room, and starved her thin, but that does not prove she did not have body image issues, or pressured into the choice. 



CastingPearls said:


> I don't think she owes us anything.
> 
> Because she was a BBW she was automatically in our 'club' but who knows if she wanted to be in it in the first place. She may have been struggling with it her entire life. We don't know.
> 
> ...



My point exactly. We do not know her story. It not a question if we respect her right not to be in our 'club'. The question is if she knew our 'club' exists.


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## disconnectedsmile (Apr 26, 2010)

Jes said:


> To all who think fatter is better, are all of you fat, too? If not, why not?



i'm not fat, but trying to gain.
it's hard for me to gain weight, though, due to a weird metabolism and issues with my digestive system.
i'd love to be fat.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 27, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> And, how do we know that it was really her choice? Yes, nobody locked her in a room, and starved her thin, but that does not prove she did not have body image issues, or pressured into the choice.



Honey, we all have body image issues, living in this culture. I don't deny, or minimize that. As a woman, I'm probably more acquainted with cultural pressures to be thin than you are. Men don't get nearly the crap that women do. Every day my body is potentially judged by the hundreds of people who see me, deemed unworthy because it's round, and because my breasts aren't perky, and because I have wrinkles around my eyes.

But that doesn't mean that her weight loss "is a shame", and that it was the result of relentless societal pressure to be thin. That's making an assumption, an unfair one. As you can see I haven't made any assumptions, other than that making assumptions about her motivations is short sighted.

I will say she no doubt gets a lot of positive reinforcement for being thin. That, in and of itself can be a form of positive pressure, but that still doesn't mean that her weight loss is a "shame".

Her weight loss is no more a "shame" than the weight gain experienced by Kirstie Alley or any other celebrity. It is what it is -- weight. And ought not have any excess societal "weight" attached to it.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 27, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Honey, we all have body image issues, living in this culture. I don't deny, or minimize that. As a woman, I'm probably more acquainted with cultural pressures to be thin than you are. Men don't get nearly the crap that women do. Every day my body is potentially judged by the hundreds of people who see me, deemed unworthy because it's round, and because my breasts aren't perky, and because I have wrinkles around my eyes.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that her weight loss "is a shame", and that it was the result of relentless societal pressure to be thin. That's making an assumption, an unfair one. As you can see I haven't made any assumptions, other than that making assumptions about her motivations is short sighted.
> 
> ...



I agree that as a man I am not subjected to the same negativity as women.

However, I can see that fat (or anything else ) has excess societal "weight", if we like it or not. Otherwise we would not be here. And, anytime some is just by appearance it is a shame. 

And, I did not expect that I would offend people by simply recommending that we as a group offering our support.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 27, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I agree that as a man I am not subjected to the same negativity as women.
> 
> However, I can see that fat (or anything else ) has excess societal "weight", if we like it or not. Otherwise we would not be here. And, anytime some is just by appearance it is a shame.



Right. Agreed. It's absolutely an issue, one I've both fought and educated people about for quite a long time. However, that doesn't mean that we should assume that any decision a celebrity (or average person, for that matter) makes is because of that pressure. Life is almost never that simple, and the reasons we do things are usually plentiful, and not always what they seem.

An example of this is me.

I had WLS five years ago (gosh, has it been that long?). I lost a_ lot_ of weight. Why did I make that decision? Because it was what I wanted for my own health and well being. No one pressured me, indirectly or directly. I had (have) a husband who adored (adores) me. I have three children who I raised actively. My doctors were happy to continue to prescribe me anti-hypertensives, Lipitor and anti-depressants until the cows came home. Not one doctor (other than when I was pregnant with my son, 24 years ago) ever hassled me about my weight. Not when I developed gall bladder disease. Not when I developed insulin resistance. Or had a hernia with incarcerated bowel. Or even when I developed an autoimmune disease that made getting around even harder with extra weight.

Now sure, you could argue that the pressure of our culture on me to "be thin" (at which I fail miserably because even after WLS I'm technically considered "obese") was what was behind my decision to have WLS. And yes, it may well have influenced me. But the major reason for my WLS, for the "shame" of losing weight was pretty much because my health was wrecked, my mobility was fast on the way to being a thing of the past, and I'd paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time to get a degree for a job with a rapidly approaching expiration date unless I did something to lose weight. 

So I did it. Despite my husband's concerns. Despite my children's fears. And despite a certain amount of flak from this very community. If anything, I experienced pressure to remain fat, something I'd felt -- not indirectly but very much directly -- since joining Dimensions in the late 1990's. 

My point, as roundabout as it is, is this: no one knows why she chose to lose weight. It might have been a career move. It might be for health. It might even be for a guy. Who knows? But I think that it is hugely inappropriate to say it's a "shame" that she lost weight. It's no more a "shame" (and can I say how much I enormously HATE that word, and how it's used so inappropriately in our daily conversation when it has no business being there?) than anyone gaining weight. Both are opposite sides of the same, tarnished coin that judges women's choices. 

It's bullshit. And if there's anything true about me it's this: I call bullshit when I see it.



> And, I did not expect that I would offend people by simply recommending that we as a group offering our support.



Is that honestly what you think went on here? If so we read two _entirely _different threads.

Supporting? Great. Judgment? Not so much.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (Apr 27, 2010)

If Jennifer is happy at a smaller size then I am happy.


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## Surlysomething (Sep 17, 2010)

"I just don't let people impose their insecurities on me. They may have a problem with being a size 12, but I don't," the curvy singer-actress tells PEOPLE" - Jennifer Hudson


Yep.


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## HappyFA75 (Sep 17, 2010)

Jennifer Hudson has been through a lot. She lost weight, but she chose not to do it with WLS. People never thought Queen Latifah would be the model of Cover Girl either!

Its Wonderful!! Jennifer Hudson likes herself that way, good for her!!

She also looked good thicker.. but she was always about "Dreamgirls" the movie, and singing.

I say, more power to her. 



Surlysomething said:


> "I just don't let people impose their insecurities on me. They may have a problem with being a size 12, but I don't," the curvy singer-actress tells PEOPLE" - Jennifer Hudson
> 
> 
> Yep.



Confidence does wonders.


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## verucassault (Sep 18, 2010)

you know what, this woman has been through so much pain and loss quite recentlz
she gets a pass to do whatever the hell she wants in my book. IF i were to take issue with anything it would be her over use of straight weave, LOL not her weight loss.
she looks good and lovely and ffs, happy!


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## Paquito (Sep 18, 2010)

*points out that this thread should have ended 4 months ago*


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## NoWayOut (Sep 19, 2010)

Personally, I couldn't care less what Jennifer Hudson looks like or how much she weighs.

I just want her to never sing One Shining Moment again as long as she lives. She was easily the worst part of the NCAA Tournament.


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## thirtiesgirl (Sep 19, 2010)

This is a site where men and women come to find people who like to gain weight, be fed, sometimes to the extreme, and participate in squashing activities. If we're not judging them for the choices they make with their own bodies and lives, even if it's not an activity we'd participate in ourselves, why are we judging Jennifer Hudson for the choices she makes with hers?

It's _her_ body. Not yours or mine. Stop the judgment and leave the girl alone.


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## Surlysomething (Sep 19, 2010)

I thought the quote was interesting.

This is a forum, people. Get off your soapboxes.


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## SSBBW Katerina (Sep 19, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> I think she looks pretty smokin' in that photo. Maybe she *is* hungry...lol...but she looks super hot, just like she did before she lost any weight. She's someone who seems to be able to look lovely at any size.



I agree. As long as she keeps her vocal talents, that's all that matters.


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## NoWayOut (Sep 19, 2010)

SSBBW Katerina said:


> I agree. As long as she keeps her vocal talents, that's all that matters.



She has vocal talents? They must be on her normal music. The one time I heard her sing, it was three minutes that will rank among mankind's most awful crimes.


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## thirtiesgirl (Sep 19, 2010)

NoWayOut said:


> She has vocal talents? They must be on her normal music. The one time I heard her sing, it was three minutes that will rank among mankind's most awful crimes.



Have you_ seen_ Dreamgirls?? She owned that show.


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## Paquito (Sep 19, 2010)

NoWayOut said:


> She has vocal talents? They must be on her normal music. The one time I heard her sing, it was three minutes that will rank among mankind's most awful crimes.



I am FUCKING TELLING YOU SHE'S AMAZING


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## thirtiesgirl (Sep 19, 2010)

Paquito said:


> I am FUCKING TELLING YOU SHE'S AMAZING



Heh. Good one.


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## Leonard (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm pretty late to the party, but I'd like to preface what I'm about to share with where I stand on Jennifer Hudson, celebrity weight loss, and weight loss in general. 

In my ideal world, everyone would have the body they'd want to have. People who wanted to be thin would be thin. People who wanted to be fat would be fat. People who wanted webbed feet could have those too. Sure, there would probably be fewer fat girls in the world (a _lot_ fewer), but at least every one of those fat girls would be happy with their body. And I would have webbed feet. 

So, if Jennifer Hudson, or anyone else, wants to lose weight, let them. Sure, I liked her better before she slimmed down, I'm an FA, but we're all allowed to pursue the body we desire. It would be great if we could all just be happy with the bodies we have, but most people aren't. 

That said, I found this opinion article on Jezebel to be very interesting. It's in response to Jennifer Hudson's most recent weight loss commercial. While she's free to do what she wants with her body, I think the message she's sending is troubling. If she was truly living in a world of "can't" before losing weight, how the heck did she accomplish so much?


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## Carrie (Sep 21, 2010)

Leonard said:


> I'm pretty late to the party, but I'd like to preface what I'm about to share with where I stand on Jennifer Hudson, celebrity weight loss, and weight loss in general.
> 
> In my ideal world, everyone would have the body they'd want to have. People who wanted to be thin would be thin. People who wanted to be fat would be fat. People who wanted webbed feet could have those too. Sure, there would probably be fewer fat girls in the world (a _lot_ fewer), but at least every one of those fat girls would be happy with their body. And I would have webbed feet.
> 
> ...


That is a fantastic article (and point) - thanks very much for sharing it.


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## BriannaBombshell (Sep 22, 2010)

She is beautiful, but i too think she is much better looking at her higher weight. To each their own i guess


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## SSBBW Katerina (Sep 23, 2010)

NoWayOut said:


> She has vocal talents? They must be on her normal music. The one time I heard her sing, it was three minutes that will rank among mankind's most awful crimes.



LOL. She has like a cpl of normal sounding songs that I do like. But at times I too can do without the warbling caterwauling, & tedious arpeggios that she, and other vocalists, has been tragically guilty of.:doh: But hey, she earned an Academy Award for her singing in DREAMGIRLS:bow:, so I can't say anything. I'm no hater..... just a tad envious. LOL!

Either way, good for her & her weightloss. I wish her nothing but continued success & inner peace.

L8R,
Katerina


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## Dibaby35 (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm not sure how to word this right. Basically yes it's fine she lost weight and all..good for her. We all wanna be happy with ourselves and dammit we all deserve that. I guess I'm just annoyed that she's selling a product that we all know only 5% of the people (me included) keep the weight off after losing it. But I guess money talks and I'm sure she was paid a crapload to do the commercials. Just wish she wasn't selling a product that is just a temporary solution. 

Why can't I be as smooth a writer as all of you. LOL


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

The Orange Mage said:


> Eh, so who wants to make some bets on how long it takes until we see Gabourey Sidibe take up a diet or WLS?



Following the standard trend for chubby to fat female celebrities (la Hudson, America Ferrera et al) I bet within the next two years.


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> *snip* Someone's relationship with their body and their fat is a unique thing, and very personal to them. *snip*



Yeah, it's so unique that the tiny industry that promotes weightloss is about to go into bankruptcy. Is tragic story of kommercial failure. /sarcasm


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Support is great, it should be offered to everyone, even those that choose to lose weight in order to fit some unobtainable ideal especially since most diets fail.



And it must be done on DIMs - cos there's no-where else that supports weightloss. Anywhere. It's a fucking desert out there! Full of burger stands, donut shops and giant bill boards featuring plus size models every 100yards.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 26, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Yeah, it's so unique that the tiny industry that promotes weightloss is about to go into bankruptcy. Is tragic story of kommercial failure. /sarcasm



Beautiful job of missing my points. I can tell that this is something you've personally experienced, Jos. Nice work on the empathy thing, there.


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## PeanutButterfly (Sep 26, 2010)

Surlysomething said:


> "I just don't let people impose their insecurities on me. They may have a problem with being a size 12, but I don't," the curvy singer-actress tells PEOPLE" - Jennifer Hudson
> 
> 
> Yep.



As Ive said in another recent "celeb weight loss" thread, this is *exactly* my point. What bothers me is that these statements, baby steps on the road to fat acceptance and tolerance, are now null and void. The person who said them obviously didn't believe them, so why should the jaded thin obsessed masses? It seems very hypocritical to me for someone to have all this "confidence" and then suddenly say they were "full of a world of can't".... looks like being the confident plus sized actress was just a gimmick? I don't know. 

My other point to everyone who's trying to make the arguement for health issues and we don't know her real motives and what not, is that theres a big difference between being "healthy" and being "skinny". You get healthy for yourself, you get skinny to please society. What bugs me about these celebs is that many of them, like Jennifer Hudson, get to a healthy weight and keep dropping pounds. Those pics of her in the beginning of the thread don't portray her at a normal, healthy weight. She's obviously not anorexic or anything but she's definitely moving into the "skinny" catergory. That certainly doesn't promote the kind of role model that her above quote made her out to be...


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 26, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Following the standard trend for chubby to fat female celebrities (la Hudson, America Ferrera et al) I bet within the next two years.



Have you read any of the posts here from fat people who are talking about health and mobility problems that are caused by their size? About a woman who couldn't run after an escaped pet? Do you care *at all* about somebody being unable to go on an amusement park ride or being at risk for diabetes or unable to buy clothes at a store? Are you cognizant of the fact that carrying 150 or 200 extra pounds on ones body can be something of an inconvenience? You act like this is all about aesthetics when really it's not.

It's also super offensive for you to second guess somebody's motives when you really have no clue.

For that matter, why don't you gain 100 pounds? I'm serious. Since being fat is apparently no big deal and doesn't cause any health issues or infringe on your life in any meaningful way, go ahead and put your proverbial money where your mouth is and eat your way up to being super sized YOURSELF.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Have you read any of the posts here from fat people who are talking about health and mobility problems that are caused by their size? About a woman who couldn't run after an escaped pet? Do you care *at all* about somebody being unable to go on an amusement park ride or being at risk for diabetes or unable to buy clothes at a store? Are you cognizant of the fact that carrying 150 or 200 extra pounds on ones body can be something of an inconvenience? You act like this is all about aesthetics when really it's not.
> 
> It's also super offensive for you to second guess somebody's motives when you really have no clue.
> 
> For that matter, why don't you gain 100 pounds? I'm serious. Since being fat is apparently no big deal and doesn't cause any health issues or infringe on your life in any meaningful way, go ahead and put your proverbial money where your mouth is and eat your way up to being super sized YOURSELF.



I agree, expect we are talking about people who are most likely deciding about weight loss over superficial reasons. 

No, one is questioning one's decision of weight loss for legitimate reasons! 

Of course, we might need a discussion on Dimensions about where the actual line between the two is.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Of course, we might need a discussion on Dimensions about where the actual line between the two is.


 
Sure. But I don't think that thin FA's should feel entitled to a voice in that discussion.


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Have you read any of the posts here from fat people who are talking about health and mobility problems that are caused by their size? About a woman who couldn't run after an escaped pet? Do you care *at all* about somebody being unable to go on an amusement park ride or being at risk for diabetes or unable to buy clothes at a store? Are you cognizant of the fact that carrying 150 or 200 extra pounds on ones body can be something of an inconvenience? You act like this is all about aesthetics when really it's not.
> 
> It's also super offensive for you to second guess somebody's motives when you really have no clue.
> 
> For that matter, why don't you gain 100 pounds? I'm serious. Since being fat is apparently no big deal and doesn't cause any health issues or infringe on your life in any meaningful way, go ahead and put your proverbial money where your mouth is and eat your way up to being super sized YOURSELF.



^Fail. I didn't say or imply ANY of the things that you're SO VERY ANGRY about. 

It helps, if you want to argue with someone - to address what they actually say, otherwise, you end up being - completely irrelevant. 

I made a bet, we'll see what happens.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

joswitch said:


> ^I didn't say or imply ANY of the things that you're SO VERY ANGRY about. It helps, if you want to argue with someone - to address what they actually say, otherwise, you end up being - completely irrelevant.
> 
> I made a bet, we'll see what happens.


 

Just a few posts above, you sniped at another member who suggested that all should be supported, no matter what his/her size or reason for losing weight. Your response was insensitive and .... yes, irrelevant. 

You've implied just those things, and many times, Jo. No amount of smiley emoticons can remove the sting of righteous anger from your e-voice.


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Beautiful job of missing my points. I can tell that this is something you've personally experienced, Jos. Nice work on the empathy thing, there.



Likewise. Nice work on ignoring the evidence that is, oooh, absolutely everywhere.


Just to be clear, for the hard-of-reading:

Evidence - enormous, thriving global multi-billion dollar diet / weight loss industry.
Conclusion - the vast majority of fat people (hell, most people full stop) want to lose weight (for various reasons) and are prepared to PAY a LOT for it (in all kinds of ways*).
Therefore - most people do not have a "unique" relationship with their fat.
Most people want to get rid of some / most / all of their fat.
That's reality, as it stands.


(*just like you paid Miss Vickie... and are probably still paying)


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I agree, expect we are talking about people who are most likely deciding about weight loss over superficial reasons.
> 
> No, one is questioning one's decision of weight loss for legitimate reasons!
> 
> Of course, we might need a discussion on Dimensions about where the actual line between the two is.



Yo. I'm not questioning anybody's reasons.

What I am pointing out, persistently, is that -
weight loss cheerleading -
under the guise of "support", is now the paradigm on DIMs.
It's not confined to a specific "Diet board" - it's all over DIMs now.
(Except maybe the weight board and the paysite board)

Also: 
It's asinine to suggest that it's vital we support weightloss on DIMs, as though that support is unavailable anywhere else. When, of course, it is EVERYWHERE else.


In some ways though I'm glad to see all this weight loss cheerleading. People are coming out of their dieting closets all over the place. Now everyone gets to know where folks stand. 

Financial tip:
Buy shares in Weight Watchers.


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 26, 2010)

Jos if you can say in all honesty that a woman who weighs close to 400 pounds would lose weight only because of a trend, then you edge a lot closer to being irrelevent. So far in this thread you've put down weight loss to money and trends. Not a single time have you acknowledged that the entirity of the fat experience isn't always positive.

When actual fat people talk, you need to listen. If you want to be more relevent, don't put words like support or health in quotation marks as if those things are suspect.

The truth is that even if somebody seriously digs on being fat, loves it, and thinks it's sexy as hell, it's not always practical and it's not always compatible with a chosen lifestyle. With celebrities, a desire to lose weight should be seen as less suspect and superficial because they're in a line of work where appearance is important. Are you really comfortable asserting that a 350 pound actress is not limitted in possible roles she can play?

As for cheerleading....call it what you want and be derisive but if you look at the problems some women have posted about, they probably think it's pretty fabulous if they can walk a flight of stairs or have eliminated high blood pressure or a need to take insulin.

And to reiterate, please go over to the weight board and start a gaining thread of your own since you've waxed so eloquently on how awesome fat is.

Edited to add some cheerleading. "Go Vickie! Way to reduce severe back pain! Rah rah Tracijo...eliminate that hypertension!"


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> *snip more stuff missing my point*
> 
> If you want to be more relevent, don't put words like support or health in quotation marks as if those things are suspect.



I didn't put health in quotation marks. 
In fact I didn't mention it at all.
Which makes it clear that you're not actually reading my posts (again).

One last time for effect:

I am NOT arguing about WHY people are cheerleading weightloss here.

NOT about WHY.

NOT.
about.
WHY.

Got that yet?

I am pointing out that what has been true IRL, and probably always has been true on DIMs, but is just now finally coming to light:

Weight loss is almost universally popular among the majority of posters here.
i.e.
*DIMs is a weight loss board with an out of date label at the top.*



> *snip of more stuff nothing to do with what I said*
> 
> And to reiterate, please go over to the weight board and start a gaining thread of your own *since you've waxed so eloquently on how awesome fat is.*


^Find me one post in this thread where I've gone on about how awesome fat is.



> Edited to add some cheerleading. "Go Vickie! Way to reduce severe back pain! Rah rah Tracijo...eliminate that hypertension!"



^Proving my point.
You've picked two posters who both had WLS and lost a great deal of weight.
They had their reasons for doing this.
e.g. Health, mobility, other...

They now claim to be "fat neutral".
Obviously they're not "fat neutral".
They are "fat negative".
No-one puts themselves through what they went through to lose, because they are indifferent to being fat.
If you felt you suffered from compromised mobility and danger of death from diabetes due to being fat - e.g. Miss Vickie - then you are, resolutely fat negative.
You may be fat negative for very good reason, but you are still - fat negative.

They might be kidding themselves.
And they might be kidding you.
But they're not kidding me.

This weightloss cheerleading has been an undercurrent at DIMs trying to reach the surface for a long time now. It's good to see it all out in the open at last. 

The Trojans are already in here, and they've been here for a long old time. Let's hear them all speak up!
Might as well, eh?
I'd say that fat positivity bubble is well and truly popped, wouldn't you?


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Jos if you can say in all honesty that a woman who weighs close to 400 pounds would lose weight only because of a trend, then you edge a lot closer to being irrelevent.



I made a bet that she would.
I didn't say a goddamned thing about WHY she would.


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## wrestlingguy (Sep 26, 2010)

Years ago, Ray Manzarek, keyboardist of the Doors, was asked for his opinions on the Vietnam War by Rolling Stone Magazine.

Without hesitation, Manzarek replied that it doesn't matter what his opinions are, that as musicians, they wield the power to influence so many others because of their fame, as some would simply follow their opinions to be on the same side as Ray Manzarek.

I've always remembered that comment.

When personalities lose or gain weight, there always seems to be a big deal here in the forums. I tend to view these threads with the same feeling that I get when I think about Manzarek's comment. To me, what these people do simply don't matter in MY life, as my opinions and thoughts are my own, not based on what a Jennifer Hudson, or Wynona Judd, or Gabourey Sidibe, or Valerie Bertinelli think.

The rest of the world notwithstanding (and I'm sure someone sitting in front of their TV in Kansas is thrilled that Jennifer Hudson escaped from the o so fat prison that she was in), in my world, I'm not affected. FYI, I'm also not affected when the gossip rags show pics of the latest Hollywood star who packed on the pounds.


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## gangstadawg (Sep 26, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Following the standard trend for chubby to fat female celebrities (la Hudson, America Ferrera et al) I bet within the next two years.



and then Gaboureys weightloss would be marketed to african american women via a product or surgery procedure.


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## NoWayOut (Sep 26, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> Have you_ seen_ Dreamgirls?? She owned that show.



I've never heard of Dreamgirls. Whatever it is, if she's good on that, good for her. Just keep her away from One Shining Moment.


----------



## Paquito (Sep 26, 2010)




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## gangstadawg (Sep 26, 2010)

NoWayOut said:


> I've never heard of Dreamgirls. Whatever it is, if she's good on that, good for her. Just keep her away from One Shining Moment.



dream girls is actually a movie.


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## CastingPearls (Sep 26, 2010)

Not only a film but a successful Broadway musical. A classic.


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## NoWayOut (Sep 26, 2010)

Then let her act and only sing in movies and on Broadway. Fair?


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## CastingPearls (Sep 26, 2010)

We don't 'let' her do anything. Her talent speaks for itself and does very well.


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## Paquito (Sep 26, 2010)

She was fucking amazing in Dreamgirls and I swear to God kdfljsdalkjhnsdaghsdagdfsgdfag all over your face if you say otherwise.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 26, 2010)

joswitch said:


> What I am pointing out, persistently, is that -
> weight loss cheerleading -
> under the guise of "support", is now the paradigm on DIMs.
> It's not confined to a specific "Diet board" - it's all over DIMs now.
> ...



Hey Joswitch,

I'm addressing this to you because I know you're smart and you're thoughtful. It's actually a sign of respect, not chastisement, so please don't misunderstand. 

I admittedly have been away for a long time, so I don't know what's been going on all over the place for the past year, but I did read this thread. This entire thread. And I don't see anyone cheerleading weight loss here. What I actually saw in most of the posts (including two posters who were disagreeing with each other) was the general concept that everyone, including Jennifer Hudson has the right to be whatever size they want and they don't have to justify it to anyone. I actually think that's a pretty good stance for SA to take overall. If you want people to not feel the need to conform to a societal standard of thinness, you shouldn't want them to conform to pressure from the SA/fat admiring world either. As fat admirers we often speak of confidence. What is more confident than a person who chooses to live how they feel comfortable without apologizing to or listening to anyone else's opinion? Honestly. If you think fat people shouldn't have to justify being fat to the rest of society, it's pretty hypocritical to think they have to justify losing weight to "us". I do understand that Ms. Hudson's ads apparently send a negative message about her life as a fat woman and if that's true, that is unfortunate. She obviously is very accomplished at any size, but as for why she or anyone else loses or gains weight or stays the same, I really think it's entirely that person's business. 

I know TraciJo said thin FAs shouldn't talk about this,  but I just wanted to say that I think the idea of someone needing "legitimate reasons" to lose weight is ridiculous. Anytime anyone of any size wants to do anything with their own body that makes them happier, that's a perfectly legitimate reason and the only one they need. In general, we're a pretty non-conformist group here at Dims, so why would WE of all people want to impose standards on anyone else? That's asinine in my opinion. (I'm not saying you are doing that, but it's part of the underlying argument in this thread).

I know you don't want this to be a weight loss cheerleading site, but I think almost all of the members here agree with you on that. Even some of the posters you are accusing of cheerleading. I don't know either of them except from posts on the board (and admittedly, we don't always agree) but I don't actually believe that either Miss Vickie or TraciJo wants this to become a place where only a size 6 and under is beautiful or sexy. Or where all fat people should need to lose weight. I just don't get that from what they're saying. (Oh, and Vickie and TraciJo, I know neither of you need me to speak for you. I am just trying to illustrate my point and your posts seemed good examples.) 

Josie, there are people here who love being fat, want to be fat, love being thin (I'm talking among the fat admirers) and everything in between. And yes, there are people who wish they were thin and even those who wish they were fat (read some of the weight board threads by unsuccessful gainers sometime). No one person's experience on the boards or in real life should impact what other Dims members do or how they feel. There are plenty of happy people here of all shapes and sizes. Stop panicking. I understand why you feel the way you do from some of your past posts, I do. And in my past, before I found this place, I had some relationships that made me feel badly for being an FA too. I get that. But that's about issues in individual relationships. That has nothing to do with supporting the right of all people to live as they please, in the body that makes them happy. It's not as if the vast majority of discussion here is weight loss related. Last I checked, the Weight board, Paysite board, BHM board, BBW board and FA/FFA board were all trucking along just fine. And lots of people are discussing being happy fat, supporting others in living happy lives fat, etc. And there's nothing wrong with supporting a member's choice to not be fat anymore. It doesn't invalidate all the happy fat people here. It's just reaching out to someone who needs support from people they know and who understand their situation. People are more than their weight. Let me repeat that. People are more than their weight. Just like fat people don't want mainstream society to tell them their lives are imperfect until they lose weight, people here at Dims shouldn't feel that their lives are only perfect if they stay fat. Hell, Josie, you and I aren't fat. Is your life and experience and opinion here less valid? Is mine? No fat person here has ever told me that I needed to physically change to belong here. Not. One. No FA has ever said it to me either. Not. One. If they had, I would have been offended. Wouldn't you? So why is it surprising that fat people get offended when F/FAs think it's OK to openly voice the opinion that fat and only fat will do for everyone of the gender they find attractive? Or that only a certain size of fat will do? For those of you who love to talk about logical arguments, actually think about the argument you're making from both sides. Flip the argument around for a minute. It's horribly offensive. This has nothing to do with fat admiration and everything to do with respecting all individuals' rights to their own bodies and control over their own lives. 

I can't believe I only made it one day before a huge post. :doh:


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## mossystate (Sep 26, 2010)

* achoo *....


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 26, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> Sure. But I don't think that thin FA's should feel entitled to a voice in that discussion.



What about a fat FA?



Dr. P Marshall said:


> Hey Joswitch,
> 
> I'm addressing this to you because I know you're smart and you're thoughtful. It's actually a sign of respect, not chastisement, so please don't misunderstand.
> 
> ...



It is not about imposing standards on people, it about making people feel conformable about their bodies. Trying to reduce the negativity about being fat. 

If you have people that have nothing but negativity about their body for most of their lives and hardly any that is positive, then you suddenly ask them if they want to try love their body as is, or try to go down to a weight they are more conformable with, which one do you think most people with go with?

If a person (man or woman) decided to lose weight because society pressured him/her into it. Is that right?

Sure I respect all individuals' rights to their own bodies and control over their own lives, but what about ensuring that those individuals are in the ones in control?


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> It is not about imposing standards on people, it about making people feel conformable about their bodies. Trying to reduce the negativity about being fat.
> 
> If you have people that have nothing but negativity about their body for most of their lives and hardly any that is positive, then you suddenly ask them if they want to try love their body as is, or try to go down to a weight they are more conformable with, which one do you think most people with go with?
> 
> ...



First of all, I want to make sure I understand your first point. Because right now, it reads to me like you're saying people should always be told to love their bodies exactly as they are right this minute, even if they're not comfortable with them. I find that to be a pretty strange argument. Again, no one seems to be saying that everyone needs to be thin. Or that everyone is happier/better off thin. The point is to each her/his own. Offering people a supportive place to feel terrific and perfect fat is great. Yes. Agreed. BUT, it is naive and unrealistic to think that it's that simple or that everyone is going to be happy fat or at a certain weight. It's actually really unfair to expect that. And I still think that one of the problems with society's obsession with weight is that it reduces people to their weight and their weight only. What about celebrating the person and if they are fat great, if they stay fat, great and if they don't also great. I think sometimes we go too far the other way and are as guilty as mainstream society of reducing everyone to a number on a scale. What about the idea that a beautiful woman or handsome man who is wonderful, smart, fantastic, talented, whatever, is that way no matter what size they are at any given time? I just don't understand how a place promoting self acceptance can with a straight face say "but only if you never ever change." That's just weird to me. 

To answer your second question: It doesn't matter if they were pressured, honestly. A person's choice is their choice. Period. 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I just don't get this logic. You want to make sure no one is being controlled by societal pressure by making sure that they meet your (or Dims, or FA's) approved standards of making an informed choice. That is what you're saying. That you want to make sure Jennifer Hudson's agent (or anyone else) didn't pressure her into losing weight and if she can prove that.....then it's OK. To me that's just replacing society and its standards with you and your standards. (again, the general you) 

And it is about standards and expecting people to meet them. Again, if you don't want people to feel pressured one way, how can you want them to feel pressured the other way. Essentially, you're asking for proof that someone's weight loss was for an acceptable reason by your standards. Your standards. Standards. Pressure. Here we go again.


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## mossystate (Sep 26, 2010)

^^^^^^...this

And I would add that there is not one person on this site ( this planet ) who has not been influenced by what ' society ' has told them they should be, in whatever way...not one. 

I sometimes want to scream for a LOT more information about a person who is so quick to tell fat people to just be this or that... from whichever 
side of the aisle. Fat is very visible, so we get judged so fucking harshly. Lots of folks can hide, inside their heads, when it comes to what makes THEM tick, and why they make the choices they make.


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## thirtiesgirl (Sep 26, 2010)

NoWayOut said:


> I've never heard of Dreamgirls. Whatever it is, if she's good on that, good for her. Just keep her away from One Shining Moment.



Time for you to get some culture, hon.


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## gangstadawg (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> What about a fat FA?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well a persons choice is there choice regardless of reason. the good thing about that is that any consequences from that action is also there problem which means it becomes a "its a sucks to be them" or "told you so" or "not my problem" moment.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> What about a fat FA?


 
I happen to believe that only fat people should have a say about their fat bodies. Individually. Vested family members can and should have opinions, but frankly, the forcefully expressed opinions of thin FA's (those who have never experienced life in a fat body, and are also fully vested in keeping the body fat for their own reasons) alarm me. 



> It is not about imposing standards on people, it about making people feel conformable about their bodies. Trying to reduce the negativity about being fat.
> 
> If you have people that have nothing but negativity about their body for most of their lives and hardly any that is positive, then you suddenly ask them if they want to try love their body as is, or try to go down to a weight they are more conformable with, which one do you think most people with go with?
> 
> ...


 
So what's the alternative, then? How do we go about ensuring that someone is making the decision to lose weight for their own reasons? What if they simply hate being fat and want to "fit in"? What then? Does a "Fat Positive Counselor" make the decision for him/her? 

You know, I find it interesting that when I go out shopping, go to work, visit friends or family ... all around me, there are fat and very fat people. Thin and average sizes are already no longer the norm. The other day, I opened a flyer for Fashion Bug and at first thought it was an advertisement for plus-size clothing, as the models all appeared to be sizes 10-16. It wasn't. They were simply using fleshy, curvy, average sized women. A small step, but one that is certainly in the right direction. A few years ago, the FB models were the usual thin and willowy that appear pretty much everywhere else, and the average-sized women were used for plus-size modeling. Plus size actors are no longer relegated to fat-shaming reality TV. I see fat young women routinely wearing hip-huggers and spaghetti straps, proudly displaying their curves (and this is something that I never saw when I was that age -- and clothing manufacturers didn't bother making cute, fashionable items in plus sizes). I'd like to believe that we are already seeing the beginnings of a fat revolution, and maybe for no reason other than ... we're already the norm. 

I *am* fat neutral, in that I make decisions about the people that are close to me based on many factors, and not one of them is ever about size. Size is irrelevant to me. This is, I believe, the way that it should be. I don't worship and elevate fat, nor do I denigrate it. It's just not ... freaking ... important ... at all. I say this as one choosing friends, and loving family members, and I understand the distinction between this and choosing a lover. I make no apologies for what/who I find attractive, and what/who I don't. Yet I don't whine incessantly about those who don't fit my ideal. Nor do I begin ... even begin ... to possess the forthright arrogance to assume that they have altered themselves in ways unappealing to me because they are weak, bleating members of the herd.


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## AmazingAmy (Sep 26, 2010)

Whether you prefer her fat or thin, one thing's for sure: Jen's outfit in the original photograph is _gorgeous_. I'm definitely gonna start gathering an outfit like that!


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## wrestlingguy (Sep 26, 2010)

AmazingAmy said:


> Whether you prefer her fat or thin, one thing's for sure: Jen's outfit in the original photograph is _gorgeous_. I'm definitely gonna start gathering an outfit like that!



Based on this post, I am requesting that the mods move this thread over to the fashion board.


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## Carrie (Sep 26, 2010)

Okay, so let me see if I've got this straight. Per joswitch's posts in this thread, Dims is now a weight loss site. But... per other posters in the "Death and such" thread, Dims is actually committed to hiding any and all negatives of being fat. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you _the power of individual perspective_.


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Hey Joswitch,
> 
> I'm addressing this to you because I know you're smart and you're thoughtful. It's actually a sign of respect, not chastisement, so please don't misunderstand.
> 
> ...



Hey, Dr. P. - missed ya! 

That's a very long and well constructed post there, designed to address a whole lot of points, many of which I haven't really got a stake in.

I'm *NOT*:
Suggesting anyone needs to justify their body choices to anyone.
Dissecting people (in general*)'s *reasons* for weightloss.
(*as opposed to blatantly money-grubbing-*celebrity*-diet-*schills*)

I AM:
Talking about an obvious change, certainly to DIMs Main and FA boards. (Yes, I know there are other sub-boards that remain mostly oases from these changes)

As you've been away for a while you have missed a whole bunch of threads, mainly starting out addressing celebrities, all of which have quickly moved to generalities, and have been very strongly themed as IMO - weightloss cheerleading.
Your idea of what that is seems to be more extreme than mine....

There have also been a big old batch of anti-feedism, anti-gainer threads, in which the kind of moral "support" shown to weight-loss celebs is noticeable not just by its absence, but by its substition for lengthy bashing. We had a 24page thread "Death and Such" whose main contention was basically that: more than X fat = death, and feedism talk ONLINE is to blame for all of that. No, seriously.

So, I maintain my assertion that there is a majority-by-weight-of-posts, i.e. 
not the majority of members (most of whom are silent)
nor even a majority of posters (many of whom post very little)
but most of the very frequent posters are at least to some (sometimes to a great) extent weightloss positive and fat negative.

And that is all ok and their choice, etc. etc.
That's clearly what the most active posters want here, and it has radically changed the tone of the boards, to be much more like a weightloss support group for BBWs (let's face it BHMs do not post in anywhere the same volume).

This "swing" has included active flaming of FAs talking about their feelings, especially where those feelings happen to be negative towards weightloss by a partner...
There is no support group atmosphere for FAs to deal with such feelings - because such feelings are deemed unacceptable by a number of vociferous posters who are often strongly, personally invested in weightloss.
Thin FAs with "the weightloss blues" are repeatedly told to STFU&GTFOIA.
The FA board is dying a slow death, not least cos of this effect...

Oh, and *I have been told endless times on DIMs that my feelings and opinions are less valid and their expression is unacceptable cos I am not fat.
*

In conclusion:*
DIMs ain't what it says on the tin. *
That is all.
I just want to see the people in question own up to it, and stop talking out of both sides of their mouths.
I'm not here telling people to shut up.
I'm not here trying to convince anybody not to lose weight.
*I just want people to admit the blatant truth.*
It's the cognitive dissonance (that bugs me) from people who have dedicated enormous committment to losing huge amounts of weight - posting in support of weightloss on DIMs - and pretending they are at the same time, all fat postive.
Or even, in some cases "fat neutral".
I mean, c'mon! Who do they think they are kidding? Seriously.
You don't dedicate thousands of $$$, loads of time, effort, physical stress, risk, operations, dieting to eradicate / get rid of / reduce something you are basically positive about / ok with / indifferent to.
That kind of investment requires a huge underlying commitment.
Why can't people just be honest about that?
That is what is really bugging me.
*Let's call it what it is!*
Aaaargh!

Anyhow, I'm done flogging this dead horse now.
I've made this point a bunch of times, everyone who's gonna hear it has, and everyone who doesn't want to won't, no matter how often I repeat it.


----------



## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

Carrie said:


> Okay, so let me see if I've got this straight. Per joswitch's posts in this thread, Dims is now a weight loss site. But... per other posters in the "Death and such" thread, Dims is actually committed to hiding any and all negatives of being fat. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you _the power of individual perspective_.



Lolz! Fair point.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

Jo, you absolutely are doing exactly what you say you aren't. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

You've accused Vickie and I of being shills for the WLS industry, of hating our fat, of hating other people's fat, and of having WLS because we were bowing to the herd mentality. I'd initially planned on ignoring your outlandish assertions, assuming that anyone with half a brain would realize that you're enthusiastically digging yourself into a very deep hole. And you are. 

I don't owe you a damn thing, certainly not an explanation, and you aren't going to get one. Had you spent a few minutes looking at what I've actually posted, you may have seen that I am far from a shill for the WLS industry. Go ahead. Look. See what a fool you are. 

And yeah, I realize, personal attack. I figure -- you've personally attacked me in the most vicious manner possible. I'm giving you far, far less than what you actually deserve. You fool.



joswitch said:


> Hey, Dr. P. - missed ya!
> 
> That's a very long and well constructed post there, designed to address a whole lot of points, many of which I haven't really got a stake in.
> 
> ...


----------



## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> *snip*
> 
> You've accused Vickie and I of being shills for the WLS industry,


Nope. I didn't say that. Shills are paid /connected to an industry. I don't believe either of you are such.
Also, when I've been talking about weight loss I've not just been referring to surgery.

All I've been talking about is obvious personal investment (physically, emotionally, not just financially) on one side of an issue. You and Miss Vickie happen to have been the most vocal examples in this one thread, but you are very much not the only people occupying this position on DIMs.


> of hating our fat, of hating other people's fat,


Hate is a very strong word. You'll notice I didn't use it.


> and of having WLS because we were bowing to the herd mentality.


Nope I didn't say that either.
Not once.
I have never questioned either of your reasons for your choices.


> *snip*
> And yeah, I realize, personal attack. I figure -- *you've personally attacked me in the most vicious manner possible. *I'm giving you far, far less than what you actually deserve. You fool.


^Hyperbole much??

Right, I need to unsubscribe from this thread now.
Soooo needing sleep!
And let's face it, wasting my time.


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## whome (Sep 26, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> I guess the disappointment comes from the fact that she was my size before and now she has wittled down just because Hollyweird says so. She didn't need to lose anymore weight, she is a big star.
> 
> She was one of my main role models for curvaceous women and now she and Toccara have to go down that weight loss route because of some idealistic bullshit imposed on them by Hollyweird.
> 
> ...



To me, her new size does not fit her well. I thought she was much more beautiful when she was a little larger, but as you said Hollyweird is what it is, eh? Shame though


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

Your post. Top of this page. 

You are a damn liar, Jo. You are saying exactly what you want to say, in a very unkind and angry manner, and attempting to soften it with a few carefully worded disclaimers and smiley emoticons. 

Your words: Vickie and I are "fat negative".

Your words: We may be fooling ourselves and others, but not you.

You know that what you said is hugely offensive. You probably don't have a clue that it's also hugely false, but I am starting to understand the why of that. I honestly don't think you're capable of seeing the forest for the trees here. Not because you're stupid (far from it) but because you ARE quite blissfully ignorant.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 26, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> First of all, I want to make sure I understand your first point. Because right now, it reads to me like you're saying people should always be told to love their bodies exactly as they are right this minute, even if they're not comfortable with them. I find that to be a pretty strange argument. Again, no one seems to be saying that everyone needs to be thin. Or that everyone is happier/better off thin. The point is to each her/his own. Offering people a supportive place to feel terrific and perfect fat is great. Yes. Agreed. BUT, it is naive and unrealistic to think that it's that simple or that everyone is going to be happy fat or at a certain weight. It's actually really unfair to expect that. And I still think that one of the problems with society's obsession with weight is that it reduces people to their weight and their weight only. What about celebrating the person and if they are fat great, if they stay fat, great and if they don't also great. I think sometimes we go too far the other way and are as guilty as mainstream society of reducing everyone to a number on a scale. What about the idea that a beautiful woman or handsome man who is wonderful, smart, fantastic, talented, whatever, is that way no matter what size they are at any given time? I just don't understand how a place promoting self acceptance can with a straight face say "but only if you never ever change." That's just weird to me.
> 
> To answer your second question: It doesn't matter if they were pressured, honestly. A person's choice is their choice. Period.
> 
> ...



I am not talking about them meeting my (or Dims, or FA's) approved standards of making an informed choice. I am talking about offering people a supportive place, and people who do not have a supportive place. 

I am saying that most people are uncomfortable because of mainstream society. And, it might influence their choice. 

How do you celebrate a person who belittle themselves because of their weight? 

I never said "only if you never ever change", I said that we should understand why someone hate their size. 

And as I said before I do not really mind that people choose to try to get thin to "Fit In", because society does not fully accept fat people yet. I get it. However, I get mad when people call it size acceptance or even self acceptance. 



TraciJo67 said:


> I happen to believe that only fat people should have a say about their fat bodies. Individually. Vested family members can and should have opinions, but frankly, the forcefully expressed opinions of thin FA's (those who have never experienced life in a fat body, and are also fully vested in keeping the body fat for their own reasons) alarm me.
> 
> So what's the alternative, then? How do we go about ensuring that someone is making the decision to lose weight for their own reasons? What if they simply hate being fat and want to "fit in"? What then? Does a "Fat Positive Counselor" make the decision for him/her?
> 
> ...



First I am not thin, I am fat, so I am talking about myself here. 

Secondly, how do you know that my opinions are going to by forcefully expressed or shallow.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am not talking about them meeting my (or Dims, or FA's) approved standards of making an informed choice. I am talking about offering people a supportive place, and people who do not have a supportive place.
> 
> I am saying that most people are uncomfortable because of mainstream society. And, it might influence their choice.
> 
> ...


 
I was going by what you said, which wasn't as fleshed out as the points you've made now. 

I didn't really think that you were going to force people to not lose weight. Was trying more to make the point that people should be allowed to make their own choices, no matter how senseless they may seem to others. 

I absolutely did NOT think that any of your points were shallow. I have this terrible habit of trying to address points that OTHER people made while responding to one specific person. I see that I've done this here, too. My apologies. 

And I agree with what you said above.


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## whome (Sep 26, 2010)

interesting that so many on here associate her weight loss with her being happier, who is to say that she really is?


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am not talking about them meeting my (or Dims, or FA's) approved standards of making an informed choice. I am talking about offering people a supportive place, and people who do not have a supportive place.
> 
> I am saying that most people are uncomfortable because of mainstream society. And, it might influence their choice.
> 
> ...



I think you've merged some of what I've said. First of all, I said in my first post that I think it's a bad thing that Jennifer Hudson's ads denigrate her past as a fat actress/singer. My point wasn't to celebrate her specifically. My points are the following:

1) It's nobody's business why someone loses weight, IMO. 
2) I think if SA puts its own restrictions on people then we're treading a dangerous line and coming very close to being the mirror image of mainstream society. If you say that it's only OK to lose weight under conditions a, b or c, you're still placing conditions on a person. I don't believe in cheerleading weight loss all the time, of course not. For God's sake I'm an FFA and a weight gain fetishist, so come on. But the point is I tend to think of the following scenario. Bear with me, I like to use examples. 

Say a SSBBW finds Dims or some other SA site. And for the first time in her life, after a life of getting criticized and harrassed and harangued for her weight she's at a place where she feels it's wonderful to be fat, she's beautiful and as deserving of a great life as any thin woman. OK great. BUT if she's met at the door with the implied or overtly stated message "but if you ever do lose weight, you better have a good reason for it." You've basically just told that woman that there is NOWHERE on earth that she can be truly, really, accepted as she is no matter how she is. See? That's where I have a problem with being so phobic about weight loss. Society basically says the following a lot :"Only thin people are sexy, desireable, worthy of a good and happy life. And no one should ever gain weight. To do so is wrong." To me, saying that there are acceptable vs. unacceptable reasons to lose weight is the same as flipping that statement on its head and saying "Only fat people are desireable, sexy and worthy of a good and happy life. And no one should ever lose weight. Or at least not without a good reason that WE all agree as a community is a good reason." I think they're equally restricting, and far from accepting. My fictional SSBBW, she may never want to be thin for any reason, but she sure as hell probably doesn't want Dims or anywhere else to be yet one more place in her life where she feels she has to meet other people's standards in order to be acceptable. That's my point. When we debate these things about celebrities or anything else, there's always a larger message being sent. And I think it's dangerous to imply that as a community we have any right to any say in anyone else's personal decisions about their body. And to reiterate, I understand the OP being upset about Jennifer Hudson's ADS. The ads sound offensive. What bothers me is being upset about Jennifer Hudson's weight loss. Because that's her business.


----------



## Paquito (Sep 26, 2010)

It took Dr. P one day, after being on hiatus for a year, to win the thread.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 26, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I was going by what you said, which wasn't as fleshed out as the points you've made now.
> 
> I didn't really think that you were going to force people to not lose weight. Was trying more to make the point that people should be allowed to make their own choices, no matter how senseless they may seem to others.
> 
> ...



THanks. 



Dr. P Marshall said:


> I think you've merged some of what I've said. First of all, I said in my first post that I think it's a bad thing that Jennifer Hudson's ads denigrate her past as a fat actress/singer. My point wasn't to celebrate her specifically. My points are the following:
> 
> 1) It's nobody's business why someone loses weight, IMO.
> 2) I think if SA puts its own restrictions on people then we're treading a dangerous line and coming very close to being the mirror image of mainstream society. If you say that it's only OK to lose weight under conditions a, b or c, you're still placing conditions on a person. I don't believe in cheerleading weight loss all the time, of course not. For God's sake I'm an FFA and a weight gain fetishist, so come on. But the point is I tend to think of the following scenario. Bear with me, I like to use examples.
> ...




And again it not a question of forcing decisions, but asking about the why? 

Why do we need to lose weight to fit in? 

It is not really about losing weight. And, I said I am not stopping people from losing weight. But, if you come to up to me and said something to the affect that you believe that you can only find happiness when you are thin, how should I react as a friend, family member or a supporter of size acceptance. Should offer my help, or is it better to say "I am sorry that you can not find acceptance in yourself. I would help but it is your decision and not my business? " Sorry, for the bluntness.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 26, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> THanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, well, you said you're fat, so if you felt that way, that you needed to lose weight to be happy, how would you want someone in your life to handle it? For me, personally, I would want my loved ones to support me in my decisions, even if they didn't think I was right. Because if you don't support what a loved one wants for themselves, you're basically being selfish and saying that your beliefs about their happiness are more important than their own beliefs about their happiness. And to me, that applies to things besides weight loss. I too am blunt.


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## thirtiesgirl (Sep 26, 2010)

whome said:


> interesting that so many on here associate her weight loss with her being happier, who is to say that she really is?



Regardless, the choice is still hers. Let's stop judging the gal on what she chooses to do with her own body.


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## Jon Blaze (Sep 27, 2010)

Paquito said:


> It took Dr. P one day, after being on hiatus for a year, to win the thread.



I don't know how anyone could not love her. :wubu:


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Likewise. Nice work on ignoring the evidence that is, oooh, absolutely everywhere.



Evidence about what? That she made a choice for her own body, for her own life, and is happy with that choice? Because that's all I was talking about -- that I support the informed choices that an individual makes, for their own happiness.

I realize that it gets in the way of your hard on, but if you can possibly look beyond the end of your penis, perhaps you'd see that there are other considerations.



> Just to be clear, for the hard-of-reading:



Do you enjoy being condescending? Does it make you feel smart? If so, I'm so very glad. Because if you're trying to belittle me or make me feel stupid, you're failing. Miserably.



> Evidence - enormous, thriving global multi-billion dollar diet / weight loss industry.
> Conclusion - the vast majority of fat people (hell, most people full stop) want to lose weight (for various reasons) and are prepared to PAY a LOT for it (in all kinds of ways*).
> Therefore - most people do not have a "unique" relationship with their fat.
> Most people want to get rid of some / most / all of their fat.
> That's reality, as it stands.



Just because a person chooses something that is part of a larger system, a system which seems to have the intention of making a buck (like health care, as an example) their individual experiences are, nor should they be, minimized. So, as an example, you take advantage of an enormous health care system, right? But does that mean that your experience within that system aren't unique? Sure, someone else may have similar experiences, but they're not YOURS. To say that they're all the same is belittling a person and their individuality. And that's a shitty thing to do.



> (*just like you paid Miss Vickie... and are probably still paying)



Here's how I'm paying.


Normotensive without medication -- check
Glucose and insulin levels normal without medication -- check
Blood lipids normal without medication -- check
Working 12, 13, 14 hour shifts as a highly trained and effective RN in a busy obstetrical unit. Walk many miles a day caring for 12+ patients, able to perform resuscitative maneuvers in L&D without difficulty, including positioning for McRoberts and applying suprapubic pressure for shoulder dystocia's easily and comfortably, applying pressure on a fetal head during a cord prolapse during the long trip to the OR and while the patient was being prepped, and climbing under sterile drape to apply pressure to a fetus during cesarean to ease operative delivery. Could I have done any of that at 300 pounds? Oh hell no.
 Riding my bike many miles.
 Walking my dogs down rocky beaches, up large inclines.
 Oh yes, and attending graduate school full time, doing an average of 20 hours of clinical time in addition to working full time.
 Tons less pain and dyspnea with my Sarcoidosis, with the first exacerbation since my WLS occurring 5 years after my WLS.

Oh yeah. I'm *totally* paying. Poor me. Boo. Freakin'. Who.


Edited to add a couple of housekeeping things:

1) Sorry it took so long to respond to you, Jos. I was, you know, at WORK. The work I am now able to do thanks to the life saving surgery that I chose to have.
2) In the comments about my health mentioned above, I mean in no way to "cheer lead" (heaven forfend) but rather to defend against unfair characterizations of my health. Had Jos not made it personal, I'd have been more than happy to not mention my WLS, because it plays such a small part in my life and I frankly don't think about it anymore. I lost my weight, am maintaining a healthy weight for me (albeit still "obese"), and have moved on. 
3) Dr. P, you rock. Thank you for "getting it". And you can speak for me any time. My only desire is to support an ADULT'S right to make decisions for her OWN body without assuming she's some unsuspecting TOOL. And yes, I happily provide the same consideration for people choosing to GAIN.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 27, 2010)

whome said:


> interesting that so many on here associate her weight loss with her being happier, who is to say that she really is?



SHE is. She said she's happier. Shouldn't that be enough? Would you question her happiness if she'd gained weight?


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## whome (Sep 27, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> SHE is. She said she's happier. Shouldn't that be enough? Would you question her happiness if she'd gained weight?



yes i would, actually. Happiness is not weight related (or at least in my limited experience)


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 27, 2010)

whome said:


> yes i would, actually. Happiness is not weight related (or at least in my limited experience)



But that's the point, you see. We're talking about HER experiences, which, when it comes to weight, aren't limited. I think if she says she's happier being thinner, then we should believe her. Even if we can't understand it.

I think it's perhaps a little silly to minimize the complicated sense of well being by tying it solely to weight, but there's nothing like having improved mobility to make a person... well... happier. Did losing weight solve all my problems? Oh HECK no. My kids still acted out, my dogs still crapped on the carpet, and Alaskan winters are still far too long. But I gotta tell you that there's nothing like having less pain to make a person... well... happier. 

Because... and I'll go out on a limb in saying this... pain SUCKS.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Ok, well, you said you're fat, so if you felt that way, that you needed to lose weight to be happy, how would you want someone in your life to handle it? For me, personally, I would want my loved ones to support me in my decisions, even if they didn't think I was right. Because if you don't support what a loved one wants for themselves, you're basically being selfish and saying that your beliefs about their happiness are more important than their own beliefs about their happiness. And to me, that applies to things besides weight loss. I too am blunt.



I am sorry. I was raised to believe that if you see a friend or family member struggling, that it is your duty to offer your help. Now you also respect their choose if they can turn down the help, because you would not want to force help upon the person. 

And, I believe there is a difference between supporting my decision, and not voicing their concerns. 

Let me use, an example. Picture you are on a train, and across from you is an lady alone on that train that is balling her eyes out. Would you respect her privacy and tell yourself it is not your business or would you go over to see if you can be of assistance? 

If you notice that your friend is in a bad relationship, and they seem to be in denial, do you try to talk them to see if they need help or do you respect their decision?

Yes, friends and family members should respect your decisions, but they should be allow to voice they concerns, and be allow to offer help, if they believe you are in need.


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok, I know I shouldn't but I had to drop back in for THIS post... Let's get the silly-ass sniping out of the way first:



Miss Vickie said:


> Evidence about what? That she made a choice for her own body, for her own life, and is happy with that choice? *snip*


No. Evidence that pretty much every fat person wants to lose.
See below.


> I realize that it gets in the way of your hard on, but if you can possibly look beyond the end of your penis, perhaps you'd see that there are other considerations.


Laughs a long and hollow laugh...
I love how you imagine there could be ANYTHING at all bonerific about arguing with people on a web board....
Also: ^This regular snipe of yours is the direct equivalent of a man telling a woman who disagrees with him that she must have PMS. 



> Do you enjoy being condescending? Does it make you feel smart? If so, I'm so very glad. Because if you're trying to belittle me or make me feel stupid, you're failing. Miserably.


No, I love condescending for it's own sake. It is a pure and unadulterated love.... 

Now to the meat of things! 


> Just because a person chooses something that is part of a larger system, a system which seems to have the intention of making a buck (like health care, as an example) their individual experiences are, nor should they be, minimized. So, as an example, you take advantage of an enormous health care system, right? But does that mean that your experience within that system aren't unique? Sure, someone else may have similar experiences, but they're not YOURS. To say that they're all the same is belittling a person and their individuality. And that's a shitty thing to do.


^Oh, you were so much closer to seeing my point than anyone else has been so far that I had to come back and give it one last go.
I'm not talking about the ins-and-outs of their feelings, I'm talking about the commonality of their desired goal.

Here we go:
Normally the partyline on DIMs is: 
"Weightloss industry = giant predatory brainwashing con. 
Fat people = victims / sheeple."
But.
BUT.
*What if we accept that people's body choice is theirs to make whatever their reasons, and whatever process might have gone into making their minds that way?*
Y'know, like most people do with religion, or drinking, or smoking...
If we accept that, then we turn the partyline ON IT'S HEAD which means we are left with the law of supply and demand economics, i.e.:

*The $40billion ++ (in the USA alone) weightloss industry alone exists and is sustained because people, mainly fat people, buy into it. 
Therefore: Weightloss IS what (fat) people REALLY, really want. Because if they didn't, they wouldn't pay for it and the industry would collapse!*

Now, it's probably *a bit of both*: a feedback loop, a chicken-and-egg situation. But, if we accept adult body autonomy, then we must accept that they make a free choice to buy into this industry. So: regardless of diversity of motives (*motives that are not our business, as we have repeatedly been told here*), people buying into it DO have a fat-loss goal (whatever the pros / cons, likelihoods of success), and those people are the majority of fat people.

Now, I know that from your POV that's unimportant... but from my POV - as an FA hoping to find a fat-positive BBW partner, who isn't looking to lose weight - the conclusion from flipping that party-line^ tells me that my chance of meeting a BBW with that attitude is vanishingly small.
And that is confirmed in my recent personal experience too.
And it's further confirmed by regularly seeing posts like yours below, talking up your weightloss.

Don't get me wrong. 
I want to know the truth. 
No matter what.


> Here's how I'm paying.
> 
> 
> Normotensive without medication -- check
> ...



At last, some honesty! 
Thank you, really, for finally posting this.

I know you don't think of this as pro-weightloss "cheerleading", but I think that's cos you are assuming that I'm employing this phrase to imply some false testimony, or active shilling, or something. I'm not.
This is obviously your genuine personal experience - together with the post about your negative experience being fat(ter) and the pain / recovery from the op. that you posted upthread.
No doubt some people will read your story here and say - "I want that". So whether you meant to do so or not - your example = cheerleading for some.

You've just given a nice, clear example of exactly what I was saying has been coming up on DIMs more and more often.
It's good to have it properly out in the open at last.


The only thing I'm going to take issue with you here is this idea that you somehow express the same level of support for gainers as you do for those who are losing.
I can't remember ever reading a single post of yours on DIMs offering support to someone gaining.
So, I'll take that caveat of yours with a big pinch of salt.




> I think it's perhaps a little silly to minimize the complicated sense of well being by tying it solely to weight, but there's nothing like having improved mobility to make a person... well... happier. Did losing weight solve all my problems? Oh HECK no. My kids still acted out, my dogs still crapped on the carpet, and Alaskan winters are still far too long. But I gotta tell you that there's nothing like having less pain to make a person... well... happier.
> 
> Because... and I'll go out on a limb in saying this... pain SUCKS.



More honesty. Great. Good.
I am not being sarcastic.
This does not bug me at all.
It's sooooo much better to hear where people really stand, and how they really feel, in contrast to veiled, hyperqualified expressions of support for 3rd party dieters, or a quick flame at some FA with the "gf got the weightloss blues".

This is what I have been trying to get at, for about the last three threads.

I'll leave this point now.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> The only thing I'm going to take issue with you here is this idea that you somehow express the same level of support for gainers as you do for those who are losing.
> I can't remember ever reading a single post of yours on DIMs offering support to someone gaining.
> So, I'll take that caveat of yours with a big pinch of salt.



Not that she's stood in the corner cheering for me, but she knows my stance as a feedee/gainer/wtf-ever and has ALWAYS been supportive of me.

BTW, I'm not taking sides in this issue, I don't think I have a side (and not just because I'm round). I just wanted to point out this one thing.


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 27, 2010)

To point out that Vickie hasn't posted anything encouraging gaining is a little short sited. For one thing she has many posts, too many to find and link, in support of fat people and in support of fat people who are satisfied being fat. Most people who encourage gaining are either gainers themselves or feeders; Vickie has never self ascribed as either.

As far as cheerleading and support, the vast majority of pro-weight loss posts seem to be in response to some of the negative and short sited comments made primarily by thin male FAs. As long and Tracijo and Vickie have posted here I haven't seen a single thread started by either extolling the rainbows and cupcakes nature of being skinny or of being post WLS. The only time either of them has mentioned increased health or quality of life post surgery is when somebody talks smack about it. The only posts I've seen where people say "I lost weight and it helped with XYZ" are when somebody is responding to a post along the lines of "people only lose weight because they're maniuplated sheep" or "it's never unhealthy to be fat" or "losing weight won't help your health or well being".

So it's not being a cheerleader, it's being defensive when somebody speaks to your life experience.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 27, 2010)

OK, I now understand better what Joswitch considers cheerleading. I would quote the whole thing, but it's long and so is this post.  My honest opinion about the post by Miss Vickie that you referenced, I'm just talking about the post you quoted, is that anyone who reads that and says "I want that too" already wanted it. Her post is about health changes so someone would have to already have health issues, have decided they are going to make changes to address them and that weight loss is what they want. I understand that no one wants this to be a place where fat people are confronted with the same weight loss talk as everywhere else, I get that. Again, I'm a wg fetishist, so it's actually kind of bizarre I'm making this side of the argument anyway. But I think her post was a rebuttal to yours and so I don't see it as cheerleading and again, I really don't think anyone would make a snap decision to lose weight, let alone have WLS based on a post like that one, or on ANY post, to be honest. To me, cheerleading would be bringing it up to people who did not ask for advice. I admittedly have not read every post by her ever, but I don't believe I've ever seen Miss Vickie (again, just talking about her specifically) go around the boards encouraging people to lose weight. I simply haven't seen it. And I agree with Rebecca that I have always felt that Miss Vickie keeps her distance from the Weight Board and topics related to feedism and weight gain and has only stated her feelings on it in a thread where people were specifically asked to do so. I know her position, but I have never felt vilified by her AT ALL. In fact, she just thanked me in this thread for "getting it." She's perfectly capable of reaching across, of accepting different points of view, of dealing with the individual and the individual topic. Again, she doesn't need me to speak for her, I'm actually stating how I feel when I read her posts. She's never come across as someone who wants to shut the feeders up or anything. Far from it. She seems to have a live and let live attitude. 

Here's what I don't understand. It seems like there's this belief around here sometimes (and I don't just mean you or your post Joswitch) that fat people make decisions differently or for different reasons than thin people. I don't buy that. I don't think a fat person is more easily convinced of something or coerced into something that they don't want than the average thin person. I mean, I know individuals fat and thin may be, but overall. Losing a lot of weight by any means is a major decision. It IS a big commitment, no matter the method. I don't think reading about another fat person's weight loss is suddenly going to make a person who is happy being fat change their mind. That makes no sense. That would imply fat people are different in their emotional and intellectual lives than thin people and that's obviously not true. I've actually read some of the WLS board and I have to say, I've seen people on there agonizing over the DECISION for years. Just the decision. And there are some very graphic descriptions of what sounds like a pretty harrowing recovery. I just don't buy this idea that one post about life post WLS is going to make a bunch of BBW and BHM say "Hey, I never thought of that. Good idea. Think I'll try it." It's major surgery. I also don't think that someone who likes or loves being fat is going to read that and say "I liked myself yesterday, but now that I've read her post, I've changed my mind." That's crazy. 

People's feelings about themselves, their lives, their bodies are complicated and influenced by a wide variety of factors. I know it's true for me, I'm sure it's true for all the other thin fat admirers here, so why would anyone assume it's not also true for fat people? This is what I don't understand. No one in good faith could sign a contract with a significant other swearing that they are going to look exactly the way they look at this moment forever. It's not humanly possible. And things change. People's circumstances change. Someone may love being fat now, but have other things happen down the road that changes that. That's life. It's full of change. I'm not trying to be holier than thou, either. I just don't understand how anyone can expect a partner of any size to guarantee that they will always be the same or want to be the same. And not just weight wise, either. It's great when a partner thinks you're perfect the way you are and a partner's feelings are important and valid, but I don't know anyone who would make their decisions (especially about something as personal as their own body) based on what their partner wanted and only what their partner wanted. I don't know any woman or man who would. But sometimes I get the feeling that that's what is expected of the BBW and BHM of this board. As if they're just one good FA away from having their reality completely changed. We're FAs, not wizards. We can be great, supportive partners, but we can't actually control the status of someone's health or entirely control their overall happiness either. We can contribute to their happiness, but no one person completely influences another's happiness. Ever. And I know a lot of people will get ticked off at me, but I've long defended the fantasy elements on this board and this time I'm defending reality. It's just how I see it anyway.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> OK, I now understand better what Joswitch considers cheerleading. I would quote the whole thing, but it's long and so is this post.  My honest opinion about the post by Miss Vickie that you referenced, I'm just talking about the post you quoted, is that anyone who reads that and says "I want that too" already wanted it. Her post is about health changes so someone would have to already have health issues, have decided they are going to make changes to address them and that weight loss is what they want. I understand that no one wants this to be a place where fat people are confronted with the same weight loss talk as everywhere else, I get that. Again, I'm a wg fetishist, so it's actually kind of bizarre I'm making this side of the argument anyway. But I think her post was a rebuttal to yours and so I don't see it as cheerleading and again, I really don't think anyone would make a snap decision to lose weight, let alone have WLS based on a post like that one, or on ANY post, to be honest. To me, cheerleading would be bringing it up to people who did not ask for advice. I admittedly have not read every post by her ever, but I don't believe I've ever seen Miss Vickie (again, just talking about her specifically) go around the boards encouraging people to lose weight. I simply haven't seen it. And I agree with Rebecca that I have always felt that Miss Vickie keeps her distance from the Weight Board and topics related to feedism and weight gain and has only stated her feelings on it in a thread where people were specifically asked to do so. I know her position, but I have never felt vilified by her AT ALL. In fact, she just thanked me in this thread for "getting it." She's perfectly capable of reaching across, of accepting different points of view, of dealing with the individual and the individual topic. Again, she doesn't need me to speak for her, I'm actually stating how I feel when I read her posts. She's never come across as someone who wants to shut the feeders up or anything. Far from it. She seems to have a live and let live attitude.
> 
> Here's what I don't understand. It seems like there's this belief around here sometimes (and I don't just mean you or your post Joswitch) that fat people make decisions differently or for different reasons than thin people. I don't buy that. I don't think a fat person is more easily convinced of something or coerced into something that they don't want than the average thin person. I mean, I know individuals fat and thin may be, but overall. Losing a lot of weight by any means is a major decision. It IS a big commitment, no matter the method. I don't think reading about another fat person's weight loss is suddenly going to make a person who is happy being fat change their mind. That makes no sense. That would imply fat people are different in their emotional and intellectual lives than thin people and that's obviously not true. I've actually read some of the WLS board and I have to say, I've seen people on there agonizing over the DECISION for years. Just the decision. And there are some very graphic descriptions of what sounds like a pretty harrowing recovery. I just don't buy this idea that one post about life post WLS is going to make a bunch of BBW and BHM say "Hey, I never thought of that. Good idea. Think I'll try it." It's major surgery. I also don't think that someone who likes or loves being fat is going to read that and say "I liked myself yesterday, but now that I've read her post, I've changed my mind." That's crazy.
> 
> People's feelings about themselves, their lives, their bodies are complicated and influenced by a wide variety of factors. I know it's true for me, I'm sure it's true for all the other thin fat admirers here, so why would anyone assume it's not also true for fat people? This is what I don't understand. No one in good faith could sign a contract with a significant other swearing that they are going to look exactly the way they look at this moment forever. It's not humanly possible. And things change. People's circumstances change. Someone may love being fat now, but have other things happen down the road that changes that. That's life. It's full of change. I'm not trying to be holier than thou, either. I just don't understand how anyone can expect a partner of any size to guarantee that they will always be the same or want to be the same. And not just weight wise, either. It's great when a partner thinks you're perfect the way you are and a partner's feelings are important and valid, but I don't know anyone who would make their decisions (especially about something as personal as their own body) based on what their partner wanted and only what their partner wanted. I don't know any woman or man who would. But sometimes I get the feeling that that's what is expected of the BBW and BHM of this board. As if they're just one good FA away from having their reality completely changed. We're FAs, not wizards. We can be great, supportive partners, but we can't actually control the status of someone's health or entirely control their overall happiness either. We can contribute to their happiness, but no one person completely influences another's happiness. Ever. And I know a lot of people will get ticked off at me, but I've long defended the fantasy elements on this board and this time I'm defending reality. It's just how I see it anyway.


 
To be honest, I have been assuming exactly this. It is so much an unconscious part of my makeup and understanding of human interactions that I haven't even considered that it may not be so obvious to other people. But then I'm also wondering -- why isn't it? 

Joswitch, I know that you aren't an evil monster, sulking in a corner, angry and upset that you can't force your BBW to stay fat (and gaining) forever and ever, amen. I KNOW this. My reaction to you has been rather outraged because I cannot understand why you aren't getting just what Dr. P so eloquently stated above. A person's decision to lose weight must be respected as his/her individual choice, even as you may feel personally affected. You don't carry the weight. You aren't affected by any possible health consequences. You say that you don't expect otherwise, but at the same time, everything *else* that you say seems to suggest (vastly!) otherwise. You don't get to separate the "good" reasons from the "bad" for why people lose weight -- it shouldn't matter. I mean, you *can* -- nobody is stopping you from expressing your opinion -- but then, you're also getting some pretty harsh feedback from people who feel that your words are insensitive and obtuse. 

Obtuse, most particularly, because you can't seem to acknowledge that yes, absolutely, some people do develop health problems associated with weight. Why shouldn't they be able to discuss that here? Is your discomfort at weight loss talk (and you don't seem to be able to separate discussion of a need for weight loss from weight loss cheerleading) more important than someone else's perceived need to discuss his/her health problems? 

And yes, I know, you'll come back with "I never said this" and "I added a disclaimer about that 50 posts ago" ... but seriously? Whether you intend it or not, what I'm reading between the lines and actually WITHIN the lines of what you say screams -- shrieks -- of indignation that Dims can't be the "no weight loss ever" fantasyland that you feel you so richly deserve.


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 27, 2010)

> Now, I know that from your POV that's unimportant... but from my POV - *as an FA hoping to find a fat-positive BBW partner, who isn't looking to lose weight *- the conclusion from flipping that party-line^ *tells me that my chance of meeting a BBW with that attitude is vanishingly small.*
> And that is confirmed in my recent personal experience too.
> And it's further confirmed by regularly seeing posts like yours below, talking up your weightloss.



This is really what the attitude on this thread comes down to. "I want a specific woman coupled with a specific mindset. I never want reality to intrude. I want to believe that being fat never causes and mental or physical health problems. I want to find a woman who's fat and loves being fat and I despair of it every time I read a post about a fat person who has hypertension or trouble standing up for a long time. I want to insist time and again that nobody ever needs to lose weight and that any reason given for weight loss must be wrongheaded."

I doubt it's possible to break down the attitudes toward being fat that all fat people have. But i'm sure it's not the vast majority who love it aesthetically AND who have no health or mobility issues. Even among those who are at peace with it or don't obsess over it, some would lose weight given the chance. Some would lose weight if it took a small amount of effort, and some try desperately to lose it.

I can't help but see that any and every positive recounting of weight loss seems to pose a threat to some FAs. As if it's another nail in their sexual coffin. And i'm not at all knocking sexuality or being free to be turned on by anything and everything, but the simple and obvious truth of being an FA is that you're turned on by something you don't have to live with 24/7 and you're turned on by something that isn't a part of you and doesn't affect you and may actually affect somebody in a negative way.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 27, 2010)

Excuse me but reality is different for all of us and the reality of fat as an inconvenience or even as a potential problem does not mean that the automatic answer it so become thin.


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

This was in response to Dr P's last post....

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said ^there Dr. P.

I don't have some big 'ol axe to grind with Miss Vickie, personally...

I agree that most people make big decisions after mucho consideration and posts on a web board would be a drop in the ocean of that... 
DIMs was originally meant to be a fat-positive drop... not so much now, I think... But I'd rather have it honest about that...

Reality is what I'm trying to get at here - mainly that the (F)FA meets a BBW / BHM and they both live happy ever after is, as far as I can see, a big old illusion... For all but a lucky few...
As you say - the only constant is change...
And as I say - pretty much every BBW / BHM will (want to) lose some weight, at some point... The variables only seem to be when, why and how much, and for how long...

What doesn't tend to vary is how shitty about themselves an FA with an ounce of empathy feels - when in a relationship with someone who dislikes the aspects of themselves that the FA loves / desires... I mean, you need to be a stone-cold sadist or sociopath to feel good about your lover's misery, right?

It's this that FAs are trying to escape by searching for the ever-elusive fat partner who likes being and wants to stay fat... And coming back to topic, I think there's a tendency to see happy, fat celebs as a beacon of hope / change in general and to then feel that hope dashed when they lose... Of course, once you've been around the block a couple of times you learn to ignore it... You know it's gonna turn out to be BS.

The fundamental division is:
FAs-by-orientation, (not bisizuals) can't stop being FAs.
Fat people can, and often do stop being fat - with varying degrees of success, failure, duration of thinness / less-fatness....

And to be honest, I can't see anything that can be done about that division. I can't see a win-win option. *shrugs*

(P.S.: ain't it ironic as all hell that you hear it often bemoaned by TA people that their partners have gained, whereas with FAs their partners often seem to lose... WTF???)


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## mossystate (Sep 27, 2010)

Just another perfect example that the person who actually lives in the fat body ( and that doesn't include how another fat person wishes other fat people lived in their fat bodies ), gets to decide how they live in that body.


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## Paquito (Sep 27, 2010)

Maybe Marianne Kirby's recent post can hammer through the extremely thick skulls we have here...


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Paquito said:


> Maybe Marianne Kirby's recent post can hammer through the extremely thick skulls we have here...



Which skulls are those?
And how exactly do you see what she said applying to the discussion in this thread?

OK - she affirms body autonomy/choice, as we ALL have in this thread, (I know there's a fingers in the ears denial that I do, in fact, get this, but it's true).

Then she goes on to trash dieting / wls as harmful, and blames the prevailing culture for framing those as the only options for fat people...

Which is pretty much exactly the kind of "disaproving of particular choices" that a whole bunch of people are getting very angry about, in this thread....


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## Paquito (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Which skulls are those?



Yours.

Sure, she explicitly states that she's opposed to dieting. But above anything else, she supports a person's right to chose. 

Which is something you appear to have a problem with.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 27, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> Excuse me but reality is different for all of us and the reality of fat as an inconvenience or even as a potential problem does not mean that the automatic answer it so become thin.



Oh, I understand this and agree with you completely and that wasn't the point _I_ was trying to make. What I meant was that for some people, weight loss, or being thin may be a reality someday. For some it won't. You never know in life and it might not even always be the fat person's decision either. I mean, a person could get ill and lose a lot of weight. It isn't so much about what the answer is, I think it's more the fact that the possibility of significant physical change is always present for everyone. But one thing I don't completely get around here (and again, I'm coming from the wg/feeder side of things) is why it's understood that most people gain weight through their own choice, but if someone loses weight, they must have been pressured. That attitude seems a little suspect to me. Just like I've never believed all gainers and feedees are coerced, I don't buy it that all people who lose weight are pressured. I think most people make choices about their bodies on their own. But I think some F/FAs think we should/do have more influence over our partners bodies or we should have more influence over their feelings/thoughts than is reasonable. (And no, Josie, I'm NOT talking about you.  Just things I see around here sometimes.) I guess I mean whatever happens, or the person's choice, it's the fat person's choice. As F/FAs we're the partners and we can't will the person to feel/think/do or want what we do. Whether it's lose, gain or stay the same. And I'm not really sure why some want to, either.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Which skulls are those?
> And how exactly do you see what she said applying to the discussion in this thread?
> 
> OK - she affirms body autonomy/choice, as we ALL have in this thread, (I know there's a fingers in the ears denial that I do, in fact, get this, but it's true).
> ...


 
She also goes on to say that she honors each individual's choice to make his/her own decisions. She gets that it isn't about her. You didn't express your opinion in the same manner that she has, Jo. Your opinion has been wrapped up in your own butthurt about how badly it affects you, the FA, and how screwed you are, the FA, because you can't change your orientation (the FA!). 

I believe that MOST PEOPLE who decide to lose weight and then go about ACTUALLY DOING SO aren't making that decision because they are tired of being fatty in thintopia (look around, Jo ... not sure about where you live, but here, fat is the NORM, not the exception). I believe that most people who make drastic lifestyle changes, whether that be yet one more desperate effort at calorie restriction or, Dog forbid, surgical means ... make this incredibly unpleasant decision for reasons other than looking good in that little black dress. It is excruciatingly hard work, to limit intake while increasing levels of activity, all while every treat imaginable is right there in front of your face ... and you feel that you're starving. Sure, there are plenty of already thin or average-sized women who DO obsess over these things. But people who are fat, or very fat, and have spent a number of years being fat, or very fat ... have already learned to live with whatever "society" throws at them. I did. I couldn't have cared a farking what [the general] you thought of my fat body, at the age of 36, when I decided to change it ... and that hasn't changed now, either, given that I currently occupy an average-sized body and frequent a website that worships the rotund.


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Paquito said:


> Yours.
> 
> Sure, she explicitly states that she's opposed to dieting. But above anything else, she supports a person's right to chose.
> 
> Which is something you appear to have a problem with.



Nope. No problem with people's right to choose.
There's really no difference between her position and mine. 

Hmmm... I wonder if a thin FA wrote that same post, if you'd've liked it so much?

P.S. To know what I think, it helps if you read my posts, rather than the posts of people who try to read "between the lines" and who persist in trying to put words into my mouth.

Thanks for the blog link!


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## Ample Pie (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Oh, I understand this and agree with you completely and that wasn't the point _I_ was trying to make. What I meant was that for some people, weight loss, or being thin may be a reality someday. For some it won't. You never know in life and it might not even always be the fat person's decision either. I mean, a person could get ill and lose a lot of weight. It isn't so much about what the answer is, I think it's more the fact that the possibility of significant physical change is always present for everyone. But one thing I don't completely get around here (and again, I'm coming from the wg/feeder side of things) is why it's understood that most people gain weight through their own choice, but if someone loses weight, they must have been pressured. That attitude seems a little suspect to me. Just like I've never believed all gainers and feedees are coerced, I don't buy it that all people who lose weight are pressured. I think most people make choices about their bodies on their own. But I think some F/FAs think we should/do have more influence over our partners bodies or we should have more influence over their feelings/thoughts than is reasonable. (And no, Josie, I'm NOT talking about you.  Just things I see around here sometimes.) I guess I mean whatever happens, or the person's choice, it's the fat person's choice. As F/FAs we're the partners and we can't will the person to feel/think/do or want what we do. Whether it's lose, gain or stay the same. And I'm not really sure why some want to, either.


it's okay, wasn't talking to you or your post anyway


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> She also goes on to say that she honors each individual's choice to make his/her own decisions. She gets that it isn't about her. You didn't express your opinion in the same manner that she has, Jo. Your opinion has been wrapped up in your own butthurt about how badly it affects you, the FA, and how screwed you are, the FA, because you can't change your orientation (the FA!).
> 
> I believe that MOST PEOPLE who decide to lose weight and then go about ACTUALLY DOING SO aren't making that decision because they are tired of being fatty in thintopia (look around, Jo ... not sure about where you live, but here, fat is the NORM, not the exception). I believe that most people who make drastic lifestyle changes, whether that be yet one more desperate effort at calorie restriction or, Dog forbid, surgical means ... make this incredibly unpleasant decision for reasons other than looking good in that little black dress. It is excruciatingly hard work, to limit intake while increasing levels of activity, all while every treat imaginable is right there in front of your face ... and you feel that you're starving. Sure, there are plenty of already thin or average-sized women who DO obsess over these things. But people who are fat, or very fat, and have spent a number of years being fat, or very fat ... have already learned to live with whatever "society" throws at them. I did. I couldn't have cared a farking what [the general] you thought of my fat body, at the age of 36, when I decided to change it ... and that hasn't changed now, either, given that I currently occupy an average-sized body and frequent a website that worships the rotund.



Ah, I see, your problem is - you just don't wanna hear jack-shit from FAs!.... Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs... Except! we now know that you do so for the drama, and to judge people...

I live in Berkshire, UK, and thin IS the norm here. Not that it's relevant to anything discussed here... And you're wrong. For my fat-for-over-ten years ex-gf, fitting into "thintopia" was a significant part of why she lost so much. She told me so, more than once. There were a bunch of her friends who all seemed to be in diet lock step with her, with similar motives. That reason of course, is as valid as any other, for her, cos it's her body. But!
For one last time! 
Reasons WHY are NOT what I've been getting at here. 
No matter how much you read-between-the-lines and assume and wish and project and smear, it's just not. what. I'm. getting. at.
But if you actually paid attention to what I'm really saying, you would not have any judging to do, or drama to wallow in!
Dullsville for TraciJo!


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> This was in response to Dr P's last post....
> 
> I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said ^there Dr. P.
> 
> ...



I understand what you're saying. I really do. But it seems like a sort of narrow definition of happily ever after to me. And honestly, you don't strike me as the type of man who would have such a narrow definition. You seem much more deep about your relationships. I say that from having read your posts in the past about your ex who did lose weight. And I get that that was/is hurtful and affects a lot of things. I get it. But it seems to me that there ARE BBW who are happy being fat. Who intend to stay fat. That it's not inevitable that someone will become thin or lose a lot of weight. Or what if someone wanted to lose _some_ weight. I mean that is weight loss, but it might not be drastic weight loss. I understand you had a situation where suddenly a lot of weight loss was desired and it made you feel badly about what had come before. I get this. I know the fat admirer guilt/conflict first hand. I do. My ex was by Dims standards chubby at most at his heaviest. I was engaged to him for many years. His weight fluctuated. He HATED being heavier. He hated me at times for admiring him when he was heavier. (Dr. P has spent a night or so on the couch for saying the wrong thing in the past, if you know what I mean.)I know how it feels to live for years in a situation where you feel that you personally are wrong for being who you are. I do completely understand. But I still don't think that a partner losing weight or wanting to at some point even means that they hate or hated being fat. Someone could be fat positive but decide to lose later for some other reason (usually health). You just never know. A woman you meet today can't possibly know how she'll feel or what will happen years down the road. We never know. Any of us. But I don't think that means that if you find a BBW who is right for you and she is happy with herself now that you should spend all your time worrying that she might not be happy down the road or that some day she'll lose. I mean that seems like you're setting yourself up to miss out on some potentially wonderful relationships. You know? And many good relationships can actually weather a lot of storms. It just depends on the people involved. I don't think you need to find the reality that depressing. I don't think reality is as extreme as you make it out to be. There ARE happy fat people. But there are unhappy fat people too. You need to find the ones who are happy with themselves for it to work for you. That makes sense, you're an FA. But I think if you see even the talk about the possibility of weight loss by people here at Dims as a sign that all fat people secretly hate being fat or secretly hate FAs, you're not seeing the entire picture. This is just friendly advice FA to FA by the way, this has nothing to do with this topic or thread. I just think because it's a sensitive issue for you, you react more strongly over things that aren't as big an affront to FAness as they may seem. I mean, when I first got to Dims, I was really messed up about myself, especially the wg fetish thing and I know every thing that I could possibly read as a slam to us, I did. I took offense at things that I don't think were always meant that way. Because I was upset about it. It was confirming my worst fears. Now that I'm cool with myself, far more direct attacks on fetishism don't bother me at all. I guess I just wonder if maybe you're still reading a lot of things through the prism of your own pain/fear/self-doubt.  Not trying to psychoanalyze you either. Just again, meant in a friendly way.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 27, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> it's okay, wasn't talking to you or your post anyway



LOL. Wasn't sure. But I still stand by what I said.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 27, 2010)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am sorry. I was raised to believe that if you see a friend or family member struggling, that it is your duty to offer your help. Now you also respect their choose if they can turn down the help, because you would not want to force help upon the person.
> 
> And, I believe there is a difference between supporting my decision, and not voicing their concerns.
> 
> ...


Sorry, just saw this. Ahhhh, see this is why I think people have to be very careful about helping other adults who have not asked for it. There are obvious exceptions, of course(abuse, etc) but in a lot of cases, what will "help" someone is open to interpretation. Case in point, what you're saying in this thread. You must realize that while you think the way to help a BBW is to make her feel more comfortable in her own skin, out in mainstream society, lots and lots of people would say you were not helping and in fact enabling. So that's why we should be very careful when getting involved with other people's business if they don't ask us to. And I mean that for everyone on a variety of issues. And personally, if I was crying on a train, I would advise you all NOT to approach me. I have a HUGE range of personal space and find most things incredibly intrusive unless it is someone I am close to and even then, only certain people. Just saying, we're all different and you can't assume what you believe is right is what anyone else believes is right.


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## Tracyarts (Sep 27, 2010)

" Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs... " 

Well considering that it's also a "haunt" of fat women, I don't find it weird at all that a fat woman would keep hanging around here. The forums have plenty to offer to people who read and post for all kinds of reasons. Some of us fat women couldn't care less about the FAs who "haunt" the site. It's just not what we're here for. 

Tracy


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> " Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs... "
> 
> Well considering that it's also a "haunt" of fat women, I don't find it weird at all that a fat woman would keep hanging around here. The forums have plenty to offer to people who read and post for all kinds of reasons. Some of us fat women couldn't care less about the FAs who "haunt" the site. It's just not what we're here for.
> 
> Tracy



Sorry, there seems to be some confusion - 
That response was not to you, TracyArts, but to TraciJo, who is not fat, and has not been fat for some years (according to her posts).


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> " Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs... "
> 
> Well considering that it's also a "haunt" of fat women, I don't find it weird at all that a fat woman would keep hanging around here. The forums have plenty to offer to people who read and post for all kinds of reasons. Some of us fat women couldn't care less about the FAs who "haunt" the site. It's just not what we're here for.
> 
> Tracy



Sorry, there seems to be some confusion - 
That response was not to you, TracyArts, but to TraciJo, who is not fat, and has not been fat for some years (according to her posts).

But thanks for chiming in to identify as one more person who doesn't want to hear from FAs.
Like I said, let's dispense with any illusions.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Sorry, there seems to be some confusion -
> That response was not to you, TracyArts, but to TraciJo, who is not fat, and has not been fat for some years (according to her posts).


 
Well, I'm not fat by YOUR standards, anyway.

But, yeah, way to miss Tracy's point. She didn't confuse Traci for Tracy. She perceived your issue over the fact that I'm not fat, yet here I am, posting at Dims. Teh horror.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Ah, I see, your problem is - you just don't wanna hear jack-shit from FAs!.... Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs... Except! we now know that you do so for the drama, and to judge people...
> 
> I live in Berkshire, UK, and thin IS the norm here. Not that it's relevant to anything discussed here... And you're wrong. For my fat-for-over-ten years ex-gf, fitting into "thintopia" was a significant part of why she lost so much. She told me so, more than once. There were a bunch of her friends who all seemed to be in diet lock step with her, with similar motives. That reason of course, is as valid as any other, for her, cos it's her body. But!
> For one last time!
> ...


 
I don't award cookies and special prizes to FA's, tis true. Still a long hurdle away from saying I don't "like" them, Jo. Point in fact, I'm completely nuetral towards them. Your orientation means nothing to me. I've taken exception to what you've said, in what I perceived to be a very selfish and judgmental tone. That has nothing to do with the fact that you happen to be sexually attracted to fat women.


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I understand what you're saying. I really do. But it seems like a sort of narrow definition of happily ever after to me. And honestly, you don't strike me as the type of man who would have such a narrow definition. You seem much more deep about your relationships. I say that from having read your posts in the past about your ex who did lose weight. And I get that that was/is hurtful and affects a lot of things. I get it. But it seems to me that there ARE BBW who are happy being fat. Who intend to stay fat. That it's not inevitable that someone will become thin or lose a lot of weight. Or what if someone wanted to lose _some_ weight. I mean that is weight loss, but it might not be drastic weight loss. I understand you had a situation where suddenly a lot of weight loss was desired and it made you feel badly about what had come before. I get this. I know the fat admirer guilt/conflict first hand. I do. My ex was by Dims standards chubby at most at his heaviest. I was engaged to him for many years. His weight fluctuated. He HATED being heavier. He hated me at times for admiring him when he was heavier. (Dr. P has spent a night or so on the couch for saying the wrong thing in the past, if you know what I mean.)I know how it feels to live for years in a situation where you feel that you personally are wrong for being who you are. I do completely understand. But I still don't think that a partner losing weight or wanting to at some point even means that they hate or hated being fat. Someone could be fat positive but decide to lose later for some other reason (usually health). You just never know. A woman you meet today can't possibly know how she'll feel or what will happen years down the road. We never know. Any of us. But I don't think that means that if you find a BBW who is right for you and she is happy with herself now that you should spend all your time worrying that she might not be happy down the road or that some day she'll lose. I mean that seems like you're setting yourself up to miss out on some potentially wonderful relationships. You know? And many good relationships can actually weather a lot of storms. It just depends on the people involved. I don't think you need to find the reality that depressing. I don't think reality is as extreme as you make it out to be.



I appreciate the understanding you're showing in this post, really I do.
I agree that IF I met a BBW and we hit it off and she was all happy being fat, I wouldn't be worrying myself sick about what MIGHT come down the road later.

Reality wise, I don't think it's me - although it might be my locality - BBWs really are thin on the ground round these parts, both UK in general and Berkshire in particular.... 
I probably haven't mentioned that: 4 months of getting my head together after the LTR which I was talking about above^ ended - the very next BBW I became involved with announced on our first date that she too planned / had begun to lose an epic amount of weight. And calling that involvement off was, oooh just a bit of a setback for my sense of not-feeling-like-an-asshole. 
FML y'know?

Aaaand at least two ex-gfs, plus a bunch of girls I'm acquainted with have visibly lost, some spectacularly.
I'm really not making this up, it is like weightloss Mecca around here.

Gah.




> There ARE happy fat people. But there are unhappy fat people too. You need to find the ones who are happy with themselves for it to work for you. That makes sense, you're an FA. But I think if you see even the talk about the possibility of weight loss by people here at Dims as a sign that all fat people secretly hate being fat or secretly hate FAs, you're not seeing the entire picture.



Yeah, I'm sure there are some happy fat people, in fact there's a few who've recently taken a battering on DIMs for daring to stick up for being fat, happy, gaining, and liking FAs...

I never used the word "hate" in these last few threads, I used "negative" and "dislike" cos I was trying to convey "shades-of-grey".... I don't believe that my two main counterposters in this thread, for instance, are out-and-out fat HATERS... that would be going much too far....
I just see it as most (not all) of the dominantly frequent posters here (DIMs Main board), being anything from fat neutral to somewhat fat negative....

The "secrecy" thing is kind of a result of the supposed weight-loss talk ban on DIMs, I think... And that has - as is often testified - pissed a lot of fat and ex-fat people off, because they don't get to talk about all their experiences on here.... And I think that increases resentment towards FAs - who, altho' they didn't make that policy, are thought of as being freer to talk about their feelings / experiences on here....
Ironically, that resentment feeds the "sort-of pro-weightloss backlash" (for want of a better more measured phrase) which reduces goodwill between FAs and fat people and the upshot is that it's harder for BOTH groups to expess freely on here, I think.

And like I said, I'd rather people were just (permitted to be) honest. It's a bit like DIMs version of don't-ask-don't-tell, y'know?



> This is just friendly advice FA to FA by the way, this has nothing to do with this topic or thread. I just think because it's a sensitive issue for you, you react more strongly over things that aren't as big an affront to FAness as they may seem. I mean, when I first got to Dims, I was really messed up about myself, especially the wg fetish thing and I know every thing that I could possibly read as a slam to us, I did. I took offense at things that I don't think were always meant that way. Because I was upset about it. It was confirming my worst fears. Now that I'm cool with myself, far more direct attacks on fetishism don't bother me at all. I guess I just wonder if maybe you're still reading a lot of things through the prism of your own pain/fear/self-doubt.  Not trying to psychoanalyze you either. Just again, meant in a friendly way.



Yeah, well everyone's perceptions are coloured somewhat by their experience, and I'm sure I got a little carried away with the hyperbole at some points (as I tend to)... but I really don't think I'm imagining all this.

There really is a big fight on DIMs for:
"Weightloss is OK, for you, if you want it." Under the umbrella of general body autonomy.

It's been a hot button issue here lately.

I'm not angry at people, I just wanted to hear some honesty. And MissVickie delivered. Yay!


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## mossystate (Sep 27, 2010)

Wanted to see hear some honesty. Because most of the stuff not to your liking in this thread is simply not honest. Was going to ask if you are serious.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> I think it'd be better for all if everyone was allowed to say their piece (on their investment in the subject) without fear of retribution... I like to know where people really stand...



I don't doubt your experiences, I didn't mean that at all. I know it's not easy. And living in places other than the US does make the potential dating pool for an FA smaller, I know. The game of love, you play until you win or you die. I do sincerely hope you find someone though. I know you can be controversial, but I still think there's a capacity for caring that you've expressed in your posts about your ex that makes me think it would be a shame for you and Ms. Right to miss each other. 

I agree with your statement I quoted and I was actually here when some of the discussion about weight loss talk was going on. I think your point about some tensions coming from that issue are correct. It always seems like (anywhere) when there's something people feel they can't discuss openly, that topic will run as subtext in a lot of conversations. I think it's a sure fire way to make people think about a subject even more. That's just my experience.


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Wanted to see hear some honesty. Because most of the stuff not to your liking in this thread is simply not honest. Was going to ask if you are serious.



Okayz... I wanted MOAR!

Y'know you were always prodding me for more info about what my motivation / background / experiences are? That.

Also: I like how you've gone for Rorschach-like phrasing here.


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## joswitch (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I don't doubt your experiences, I didn't mean that at all. I know it's not easy. And living in places other than the US does make the potential dating pool for an FA smaller, I know. The game of love, you play until you win or you die. I do sincerely hope you find someone though. I know you can be controversial, but I still think there's a capacity for caring that you've expressed in your posts about your ex that makes me think it would be a shame for you and Ms. Right to miss each other.
> 
> I agree with your statement I quoted and I was actually here when some of the discussion about weight loss talk was going on. I think your point about some tensions coming from that issue are correct. *It always seems like (anywhere) when there's something people feel they can't discuss openly, that topic will run as subtext in a lot of conversations. I think it's a sure fire way to make people think about a subject even more. That's just my experience.*



Yeah, I remember your excellent posts in that discussion.  
Yes, I agree, and I think issues tend to get kinda twisted up in the repression and manifest in ways that they might not otherwise...
Certainly it makes for more faux-pas...


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## mossystate (Sep 27, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Y'know you were always prodding me for more info about what my motivation / background / experiences are? That.



Yes, and I got pretty much no kind of real honesty...that, you will never, ever, give here.

Very easy to read between the lines.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 27, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Sorry, just saw this. Ahhhh, see this is why I think people have to be very careful about helping other adults who have not asked for it. There are obvious exceptions, of course(abuse, etc) but in a lot of cases, what will "help" someone is open to interpretation. Case in point, what you're saying in this thread. You must realize that while you think the way to help a BBW is to make her feel more comfortable in her own skin, out in mainstream society, lots and lots of people would say you were not helping and in fact enabling. So that's why we should be very careful when getting involved with other people's business if they don't ask us to. And I mean that for everyone on a variety of issues. And personally, if I was crying on a train, I would advise you all NOT to approach me. I have a HUGE range of personal space and find most things incredibly intrusive unless it is someone I am close to and even then, only certain people. Just saying, we're all different and you can't assume what you believe is right is what anyone else believes is right.



Of course, like I would not use the word "enabling" when talking about help someone with their self esteem, or body image. Since, I think of enabling as encourage, someone's bad habit, so it escape me how making one comfortable in their own skin, and building their self esteem is thought of as enabling. At least in this group. 

So, it also escapes me how we as a group can still promote size acceptance with out running the risk of being though of as intrusive?


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## joswitch (Sep 28, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Yes, and I got pretty much no kind of real honesty...that, you will never, ever, give here.
> 
> Very easy to read between the lines.



Ahahahahaha! Actually I was very honest and open with you, but if you will insist on reading between the lines, rather than the lines themselves - then I will always appear to you as the pantomime baddie that you imagine I am...
Hope you're having fun in your world of make-believe!


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 28, 2010)

Joswitch, I can't help but shake the feeling that if you weren't an FA, you'd be the sort of man who only wanted to date skinny women but who whined and complained about your dates only ordering salad when you went out or picking at their food. Or not ordering dessert but cribbing yours. Or about how they rush out of bed to get to exercise class. For any guy who bitches about that stuff, I always want to remind them that's the REALITY of being thin. If somebody has a "No Fat Chicks" sign on their wall, they don't get to complain about what their date eats.

If you want a fat woman you have to deal with the totality of a woman who lives in this world as a fattie. That is going to include social pressure, practical issues like mobility and not fitting in booths or airline seats, and possible health problems. It's as unlikely that you'll find a fat woman who's all bright and cheerful and happy and confident all the time as it's unlikely to find somebody "naturally" skinny who pounds back steak and never works out. Those women may exist but they're rare enough that you shouldn't count on it.

It's bizarre to me to see you laud Vickie for some sort of over the top honesty when she says she had hypertension and mobility issues when she was fat. Did it come as some sort of surprise to you? Did you think fat women were hiding that stuff so cleverly before? Your posts seem as if you think everyone on here was just playing "Gotcha" with you by not being honest about their realities.



> Aaaand at least two ex-gfs, plus a bunch of girls I'm acquainted with have visibly lost, some spectacularly.
> I'm really not making this up, it is like weightloss Mecca around here.



OMG. Some acquaintances of yours lost weight. So the fuck what? That affects you not at all, unless you're using it as more proof of some sort of anti-FA conspiracy that the universe is enacting. 

You know there are men and women who like skinny partners. And then there are men and women who police their partner's bodies and make rude comments if they gain a pound and oversee their restaurant orders and insist they get light beer or salad or grilled chicken. The former is cool and the latter not so much. You're coming off as some sort of "Fat Police" who's always on the lookout for weight loss and flipping out over it. You need to chill, the world isn't running out of fat women.


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## mossystate (Sep 28, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Ahahahahaha! Actually I was very honest and open with you, but if you will insist on reading between the lines, rather than the lines themselves - then I will always appear to you as the pantomime baddie that you imagine I am...
> Hope you're having fun in your world of make-believe!



Yup. I had asked why you caved to brainwashing and ugliness from other people, and you made a list of the very good reasons why you changed your body...but of course that is nothing like the horrors when a fat woman loses weight, no matter her reasons. She is just a hapless pawn.
You wanted to get laid and climb mountains...she is frivolous and needs your guidance in how to have an OK life, as is. You have a kink that can have you gain a couple of pounds, which of course equals the life of an actual fat person. You dabble in teh fat...you switch when it appeals to you. But your focus is to never go back to that body that gave you so much psychological and physical discomfort. You had/have good reasons. Why, it's not at all about what the outside of yourself said and did to you...no...errrr...even though you gave all the info that said otherwise. You talk about cheerleading when it comes to weight...but what is funny is that you are a cheerleader for exactly the kind of life you enjoy. What, you are the only one allowed pom poms, jos? 

* gives you an extra 200 pounds ( not 15 pounds after some sexay period of fun ) and watches you scramble, in tears, to get it off


and because it is important to say this out here...no...not every fat person is all teary over their weight...ever...just talking about how I suspect joswitch would be


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## joswitch (Sep 28, 2010)

@LoveBHMs - You're listening to the voices in your head again. Try to remember that what you "feel" about me does not = what I post.
I can't be bothered to address your speculation as most of it's soooo far off the mark... 
Oh, just one thing - CONTEXT - I was discussing my locality, in which, yeah there were never many fat women to start with and now there are even less. I know it's hard to believe for Americans, but it's a thin world out here... And the UK is one of the fatter parts of Europe!

@Mossy - Lolz! You're still having fun beating up on imaginary me!
My entire point in this thread was the opposite of what you're getting at! But it'd spoil your fun to recognise that, wouldn't it?

And ftr - if I did magically gain 200lbs?
The very second thing I'd do is hit up all those FFAs whose profiles read "you must be 350lbs+" (first - buy some clothes that fit me!)  
I get that there'd be problems, too.... my knees are already pretty fucked, for instance....


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## mossystate (Sep 28, 2010)

Jos, you are just so misunderstood. :happy:


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## joswitch (Sep 28, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Jos, you are just so misunderstood. :happy:



Iz tragick storie ov my strenge lief...


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 28, 2010)

What interests me is how all the female posters on this thread are misunderstanding Joswitch, and yet they are inexplicably all somewhat in line with the "misunderstanding". Weird how we're all reading similar meanings into your posts isn't it?


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## Ample Pie (Sep 28, 2010)

I've only disagreed with him on one point, really. Ain't I A Woman?


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## joswitch (Sep 28, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> What interests me is how all the female posters on this thread are misunderstanding Joswitch, and yet they are inexplicably all somewhat in line with the "misunderstanding". Weird how we're all reading similar meanings into your posts isn't it?



Not to anyone who's been watching you or Mossy, for instance, track me through one thread to another rehearsing your same old assumptions at me for like the last 18months... 
It just looks like more of the usual...

I like to imagine the Dick Dastardly theme tune playing everytime I go to make a post, as you and Mossy rev up your keyboards in hot pursuit...
Obviously, I'm Penelope Pitstop... 
"Oh, hey-lp!


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## joswitch (Sep 28, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> I've only disagreed with him on one point, really. Ain't I A Woman?



Someone only disagrees with me on one point on DIMs?? 
*faints*

*revives briefly*
Small yay!

Okayz: now I think you should expand on your opinion, Rebecca, and I should STFU in this thread... 
I invite you to take the floor -


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## LovelyLiz (Sep 28, 2010)

*withdrawn*






.


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## mossystate (Sep 28, 2010)

* tracks the erratic footprints in the sand...decides that to shoot would be just way tooooooo cruel...but knows that if this manimal says something that needs addressing...I will have to roll up my sleeves, after I shake my head, and do what needs to be done *


:bow:

dun dun duuuuuuuuuun


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 28, 2010)

Hey, guys. Sorry for the "post and run" but I got the word that my brother is dying and I'm making plans to go visit him.



joswitch said:


> Also: ^This regular snipe of yours is the direct equivalent of a man telling a woman who disagrees with him that she must have PMS.



No, but rather that it seems you seem to be unable to understand that a woman (or man) could make a choice for their own body that defies your understanding without being a tool or a shill of the weight loss industry.

Here's a question for you: If a woman wanted to, say, gain weight, would you wonder if perhaps her motives were pure? Would you worry that she did it to gain attention or fit in at Dimensions? Or is it only if someone wants to LOSE weight that they suddenly take leave of their senses?



> Oh, you were so much closer to seeing my point than anyone else has been so far that I had to come back and give it one last go.
> I'm not talking about the ins-and-outs of their feelings, I'm talking about the commonality of their desired goal.



Okay, well, you can talk about that if you want. But I'm talking about the personal decision that each woman (in this case Jennifer Hudson) makes about their body in their life. 



> Here we go:
> Normally the partyline on DIMs is:
> "Weightloss industry = giant predatory brainwashing con.
> Fat people = victims / sheeple."
> ...



Sure, of course we all make decisions not in a vacuum but rather as a result of societal and family pressures. No (wo)man is an island, to be sure. But as adults we *should* be able to wade through those expectations and cultural norms to figure out what's best for us. As a health care provider, I'm surprised, I guess, that you give your patients so little credit. That makes me sad.

If you truly believe that it's the billion dollar industry that motivates people, then you really DON'T think highly of people. Again, this makes me sad. I think it's important as providers to give risks, benefits, alternatives to our patients and let them choose what's best for them. And if they do make a mistake and choose unwisely, then they pay that price. But they've been informed.



> Now, I know that from your POV that's unimportant... but from my POV - as an FA hoping to find a fat-positive BBW partner, who isn't looking to lose weight - the conclusion from flipping that party-line^ tells me that my chance of meeting a BBW with that attitude is vanishingly small.



Well, you're right that your libido really isn't my concern. But at least you're finally being honest about what motivates you. See? It's as I suspected. I wasn't so far off after all, your little PMS swipe notwithstanding.

I'm really sorry you're having trouble finding a fat chick who digs being fat, but you know, maybe there's a reason (besides societal pressure) that many women don't like being fat. Ya think?

As for my experience with my WLS, the ONLY reason I brought it up in this thread is because you made an assumption that I'm somehow "paying" for my WLS. Well guess what? I've been brutally honest and outspoken about my experiences, both positive and negative, about my surgery and the resulting issues from it. I've spared nothing, and yes I did have some brief problems relating to it. If that's cheerleading, then I suuuuuck as a cheer leader.



> No doubt some people will read your story here and say - "I want that". So whether you meant to do so or not - your example = cheerleading for some.



See, I think we have a different definition of cheerleading, as has been borne out by the other comments in this thread. I've had many people pm me about my experiences with WLS, and I've provided them with my honest experience, all the while saying that most people have FAR more problems than I did. It's no different than people asking about my experiences with thyroid cancer, endometrial ablation, and having a home birth. And yet because some people might decide that they want what I've got, that's cheer leading? Ohhhkay... I think you see it as cheer leading because you want it to be so you can see me as some sort of fat hating harpie who's desperately trying to make people thin. Yet if you've read any of my posts, you'll know that nothing could be further from the truth.



> The only thing I'm going to take issue with you here is this idea that you somehow express the same level of support for gainers as you do for those who are losing.



I don't post on the weight board because it doesn't interest me. So I'm not going to seek out gainers to give them support. I figure there are enough people here who support feeders and feeding that they don't need me. Jeez, next you're going to say that I need to post on the GLBT forum to offer my support there. Does the fact that I don't start threads on that forum saying, "Go gay!" doesn't mean I don't support them.



Rebecca said:


> Not that she's stood in the corner cheering for me, but she knows my stance as a feedee/gainer/wtf-ever and has ALWAYS been supportive of me.



Thanks, Rebecca.  I definitely support your right to make choices for your body. Reproductive choices. Food choices. Love choice. Choice = good. 



LoveBHMS said:


> To point out that Vickie hasn't posted anything encouraging gaining is a little short sited. For one thing she has many posts, too many to find and link, in support of fat people and in support of fat people who are satisfied being fat. Most people who encourage gaining are either gainers themselves or feeders; Vickie has never self ascribed as either.



Thanks, Loves. Seriously, if I hated fat people or hated fat, why would I be here? How silly. Besides, I'm still FAT by society's standards. I'm just at a weight that works better for me, that allows me to have the kind of life that I want to live. I still don't understand why that is a bad thing.



> As long and Tracijo and Vickie have posted here I haven't seen a single thread started by either extolling the rainbows and cupcakes nature of being skinny or of being post WLS. The only time either of them has mentioned increased health or quality of life post surgery is when somebody talks smack about it.



Yup. Even my thread in the WLS forum wasn't solely positive. It was honest and forthcoming about what I was going through. And still I caught shit for it.



Dr. P Marshall said:


> My honest opinion about the post by Miss Vickie that you referenced, I'm just talking about the post you quoted, is that anyone who reads that and says "I want that too" already wanted it. Her post is about health changes so someone would have to already have health issues, have decided they are going to make changes to address them and that weight loss is what they want.



So true. If someone wanted WLS in order to fit into a bikini or run a triathalon or become some sort of super athlete, they would be mistaken to use me as any sort of example.  However, if it is a person who faces significant health challenges from weight-related disease, loss of mobility and cardiac issues (the kind which are KILLING my brother right now, incidentally), then they may find some resonance in my experiences. And I don't see that as a bad thing, because like it or not, WLS can help with that stuff. It can also cause problems, most definitely, and many people don't do well with it. But some of us do, those of us who have reasonable expectations and who are good candidates for the surgery.



> I really don't think anyone would make a snap decision to lose weight, let alone have WLS based on a post like that one, or on ANY post, to be honest.



So true. It's not a decision one makes lightly, and it's one made with a lot of input from people other than (im)perfect strangers on a message board. I'd love to have that kind of power -- it would simplify my life greatly. But I know that my influence in people's lives is really quite small. Which is as it should be.



> To me, cheerleading would be bringing it up to people who did not ask for advice. I admittedly have not read every post by her ever, but I don't believe I've ever seen Miss Vickie (again, just talking about her specifically) go around the boards encouraging people to lose weight. I simply haven't seen it. And I agree with Rebecca that I have always felt that Miss Vickie keeps her distance from the Weight Board and topics related to feedism and weight gain and has only stated her feelings on it in a thread where people were specifically asked to do so. I know her position, but I have never felt vilified by her AT ALL. In fact, she just thanked me in this thread for "getting it." She's perfectly capable of reaching across, of accepting different points of view, of dealing with the individual and the individual topic. Again, she doesn't need me to speak for her, I'm actually stating how I feel when I read her posts. She's never come across as someone who wants to shut the feeders up or anything. Far from it. She seems to have a live and let live attitude.



I just had to quote this with a big ol' thank you. I'm having a very rough time right now and this was like a balm for my hurting heart. So thank you. I'd like to think that people perceive me as supportive of my friends here, and indeed all fat people. But it's hard to say how people perceive you. So thank you.  :kiss2::wubu:



> Here's what I don't understand. It seems like there's this belief around here sometimes (and I don't just mean you or your post Joswitch) that fat people make decisions differently or for different reasons than thin people. I don't buy that. I don't think a fat person is more easily convinced of something or coerced into something that they don't want than the average thin person.



I think you're right, both that that is the perception sometimes, and that fat people are no more swayed than thin folks. To think otherwise is really demeaning to fat people, don't you think? Would we assume that our gay friends here are swayed into being straight against their will, because it's easier to be straight? I hope not. As you say, losing weight -- by whatever means -- requires enormous commitment. While the weight loss was easier with the surgery, I can eat much more now and have to make good choices about what I eat. Plus, I have the added requirement of vitamin supplementation. So yeah, to say it's easy would be wrong. The only difference was that the surgery offered success, something which dieting alone never did. And the weight loss didn't make me happy, didn't rock my world, didn't change who I am. It just makes things easier for me, and allows for seemingly improved health if we're to believe things like vital signs, laboratory values and cardiac testing. That's not to say I haven't paid in other ways, and for awhile I was VERY anemic and felt like warmed over crap.



> People's feelings about themselves, their lives, their bodies are complicated and influenced by a wide variety of factors.



This. Totally this. Seriously. I think the whole thread can be summed up right here. 



Rebecca said:


> Excuse me but reality is different for all of us and the reality of fat as an inconvenience or even as a potential problem does not mean that the automatic answer it so become thin.



I agree, Rebecca, although it seems like there was some sort of misunderstanding that you guys cleared up. My mom loved being fat, and I don't remember her ever uttering a fat negative comment. She had no health problems from her weight, and while she died young, it was from an unrelated health event. 

And as you say, even if we *do* have problems relating to our size, we don't have to lose weight. There are all kinds of choices available to us, including doing nothing, and I support those choices. And I will continue to support those choices, even after I become a nurse practitioner. I make this promise here, that I will never EVER browbeat a patient into losing weight.



mossystate said:


> Just another perfect example that the person who actually lives in the fat body ( and that doesn't include how another fat person wishes other fat people lived in their fat bodies ), gets to decide how they live in that body.



I have to admit that part of my irritation with Jos is that he's pontificating about what it's like being fat and telling us what we should do, while never ever having lived in a fat body. To me he'd have a lot more cred it he were fat. Maybe that's unfair but that's where I see things.


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## LovelyLiz (Sep 28, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Hey, guys. Sorry for the "post and run" but I got the word that my brother is dying and I'm making plans to go visit him.
> 
> snipped



Miss Vickie, I am so sorry.  What a tremendously difficult thing. Safe travels to you. You and your family will be in my thoughts.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 28, 2010)

here are my only points

1: Miss Vickie has always been supportive of me, no matter my size or agenda, so accusing her of being otherwise just because she may not agree here is wrong.

2: Some of the other ladies in this thread who've b!tched and moaned about the whole "we're not on one side more than on the other" are full of crap, because they were willing to rain down idiocy on my feedee thread JUST so they could ONCE AGAIN talk about how _it's okay to talk about losing weight_ or about how _weight=death and shouldn't be ignored just because weight gives some people boners/moistness_.

3: Some people in this thread are, with some regularity, fans of being and staying obtuse.

4: Weight issues that affect health and weight issues that affect private parts should not be confused, der. 

5: Size acceptance should mean accepting someone whatever their size, but that doesn't mean we can't hate a culture (wherever it is) that tries to FORCE all people to be a certain size.

6: Liking fat people is not at odds with wanting fat people to be happy and healthy, at least it doesn't have to be. And if you haven't figured this out yet or how to do it, then your posts are probably too idiotic for me to read anyway.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 28, 2010)

7: This site isn't going to validate everything for everyone; it can't. No matter what I do, someone is going to disagree with it. If I make an effort to lose weight, some people will think I'm a traitor. If I gain weight, some people will think I'm reckless and have a death-wish. If I stay the same, some people will think I am not devoted to being the feedee I claim! If you really think you're going to find total validation here for every aspect of weight and fat culture, you're deluded--that's just the sad straight fact of things.

And, lastly, I hope:

8: "Where Big Is Beautiful" does not mean thin is ugly, it just means big is beautiful TOO. Lots of people who participate here on Dims are THIN. I am so fucking sick of seeing thin people counted out on this site. For the love of mac-n-cheese, the founder of the site is thin. So, in no way was this ever meant to be a place where thin couldn't be beautiful, it's just a site trying to say beautiful doesn't always and only equal thin and fat doesn't always and only equal ugly. It's sort of spitting in the face of convention--it isn't saying no one should ever be thin or want to be thin ever again...and when someone does get thin or lose weight, it doesn't mean that this forum has lost or found its purpose.

okay, done.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 29, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> Miss Vickie, I am so sorry.  What a tremendously difficult thing. Safe travels to you. You and your family will be in my thoughts.



Thanks. He's my last living close relative, and raised me after my parents died when I was a kid. So, he's important to me, and this is a rough time, for me and his kids.



Rebecca said:


> here are my only points
> 
> 1: Miss Vickie has always been supportive of me, no matter my size or agenda, so accusing her of being otherwise just because she may not agree here is wrong.
> 
> ...





Rebecca said:


> 7: This site isn't going to validate everything for everyone; it can't. No matter what I do, someone is going to disagree with it. If I make an effort to lose weight, some people will think I'm a traitor. If I gain weight, some people will think I'm reckless and have a death-wish. If I stay the same, some people will think I am not devoted to being the feedee I claim! If you really think you're going to find total validation here for every aspect of weight and fat culture, you're deluded--that's just the sad straight fact of things.
> 
> And, lastly, I hope:
> 
> ...



I loved all of this, Rebecca. Definitely quoted for truthiness.  I think you're being very fair, which I appreciate. I especially loved #5 -- I would LOVE it if our culture didn't give people shit for being fat; we never feel "less than" because we're fat. I hate that people's worth (especially women) is determined based on some screwed up beauty standard that never made any sense to begin with, let alone be in any way meaningful. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. 

I guess that's why I'm still here, because I rail against the same bullshit beauty standards and want nothing but the best for us. For all of us.


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

And no amount of temper tantrum throwing ( won't go so far as to say it is idiocy, no matter what I am actually thinking ) from anybody will have me not KNOW what I believe. There ya have it.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

Oh, no one doubts that you think you know what you know or what you feel or whatever the hell you just said. I mean, you never miss an opportunity to make that point: whether it fits the thread or not!


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

Yup, I am just a mouthy bitch. It is pretty rich that you are going to mock another person who says they know what they know about themselves...after you start a thread all about such a thing. Rich. I went into your thread, first to just read what you wrote. I liked what you wrote. I allowed myself to get sucked into a comment made about me. I addressed that and made a general comment about fear of talking about...whatever ( and without you or the subject at hand in mind ). That's it. So, go ahead and lash out and get angry over something that never happened...not from me.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

A: I don't care enough about you to get angry at you. Trust me, I'm WAY more amused than angry.

2: I didn't call you a bitch, though I did say you've done some bitching and moaning--and you have and I support it! Bitch and moan and get that point out...over and over and over, even when no one is against it but is saying something completely different! Please, let's head over to the fashion board so you can tell me how my dislike of skinny jeans on women means I don't support women who want to lose weight, how I'm only in it for the fat lovin! Let's do it.

D: I didn't mock your post about knowing what you know or think or feel, I mocked the _JESUS CHRIST NOT AGAIN frequency_ with which you make that exact same post. Of course, I'm sure you'll point out how that isn't what I was doing and back it up with an "And I know this because I think it, therefore it is science and you hate women who want to lose weight because, really, you're just here for the boners" post anyway.

---

Further, this is the most passive aggressive BS I've seen on Dims in a while:


mossystate said:


> And no amount of temper tantrum throwing ( won't go so far as to say it is idiocy, no matter what I am actually thinking ) from anybody will have me not KNOW what I believe. There ya have it.


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

lol

You are spinning. The whole jeans scenario would never happen from me. Jesus. Psssssst...I tend to want women to wear whatever the fuck they wanna wear. Yes, Rebecca, I know that was just an example. The day I care about what you think about how I communicate...well, we will both be shocked out of our gourds.

It's OK. :happy:

*eta...I was taking your lead there with the passive and the aggressive...oy


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

I am never shocked by what you do. I mean, really. I couldn't expect less of you (or more of you if it comes to that).

Your posts are constantly passive aggressive and hypocritical.

I don't like your posts. In fact, I find them to be little more than humorous one offs from someone who has so much discontent she needs to spread it around.

That said, I have to make one correction. If I ever find a post you have made that is positive w/o being sarcastic, that says something nice that isn't a backhanded compliment, I'll be effing floored and I'll send you flowers.

Promise.


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## whome (Sep 29, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Sorry, there seems to be some confusion -
> That response was not to you, TracyArts, but to TraciJo, who is not fat, and has not been fat for some years (according to her posts).



NO matter how much weight a fat person may lose, or if they become thin, I believe that we are still fat people, maybe not in our bodies, but with out a doubt many of us are still fat people in our minds.


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

You are a darker and scarier kind of passive aggressive than I could ever be. I guess we both view the other as posting from an angry place. How fun. You will never find one nice post from me out here, Rebecca...not one. Promise.


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## Paquito (Sep 29, 2010)

I hope you're proud of yourself, happyface. LOOK AT WHAT YOU'VE DONE


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

whome said:


> NO matter how much weight a fat person may lose, or if they become thin, I believe that we are still fat people, maybe not in our bodies, but with out a doubt many of us are still fat people in our minds.



You know, I've often heard this is true: even as the body changes, the mind is still "fat" and that's one reason I don't think I would ever want to be thin. The idea of having such discord between my mind and body is kind of scary.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

Well, if you can't be decent, I'd like to at least thank you for making my point for me. So...thanks.


mossystate said:


> lol
> 
> You are spinning. The whole jeans scenario would never happen from me. Jesus. Psssssst...I tend to want women to wear whatever the fuck they wanna wear. Yes, Rebecca, I know that was just an example. The day I care about what you think about how I communicate...well, we will both be shocked out of our gourds.
> 
> ...


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## whome (Sep 29, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @LoveBHMs - You're listening to the voices in your head again. Try to remember that what you "feel" about me does not = what I post.
> I can't be bothered to address your speculation as most of it's soooo far off the mark...
> Oh, just one thing - CONTEXT - I was discussing my locality, in which, yeah there were never many fat women to start with and now there are even less. I know it's hard to believe for Americans, but it's a thin world out here... And the UK is one of the fatter parts of Europe!
> 
> ...



Maybe you could try calling Gillian from you are what you eat. Maybe she can hook you up. She seems to have no problem finding fat people in the uk:batting:


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> Well, if you can't be decent, I'd like to at least thank you for making my point for me. So...thanks.



jbfvodfbdbfdjfbdfpdfbdjofbjb!

I realize you think I should have just said thanks for coming at me ( dragging another thread into this one and sliming ) the way you did.


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

Paquito said:


> I hope you're proud of yourself, happyface. LOOK AT WHAT YOU'VE DONE



Where is she?!!??!!


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

mossystate said:


> jbfvodfbdbfdjfbdfpdfbdjofbjb!
> 
> I realize you think I should have just said thanks for coming at me ( dragging another thread into this one and sliming ) the way you did.



I realize I'm going to regret this, but could you please explain this because, while I know you know what you mean because it's what you think, I'm completely confused. I have no idea what you're saying here.


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## mossystate (Sep 29, 2010)

" I'm completely confused "

So sorry about that, Rebecca. You have a good nights sleep.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

All right, works for me. Don't say I never tried to understand where you're coming from.


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## Wagimawr (Sep 29, 2010)

So...are we cool with Jennifer Hudson losing weight or not?


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

Wagimawr said:


> So...are we cool with Jennifer Hudson losing weight or not?


Not sure yet. We've got to meet and decide by executive decision.

Who's going to let Ms. Hudson know what we've all decided for her?


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## Wagimawr (Sep 29, 2010)

*throws rope and hose in the back of the van*

*dons shades*

Let's do this.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 29, 2010)

Don't forget the cream pies.


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## Wagimawr (Sep 29, 2010)




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## Mishty (Sep 29, 2010)

Fat or thin Jenny the American Idol reject bugs the shit out of me.
She seems kinda dumb, good thing she has that voice, even though I think she'll fall off radar not to long from now, no staying power, no real personality. 

I think it's cause I'm still pissy about the Oscar being wrenched from little Abigail Breslin's hands. 

IMO


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## joswitch (Sep 29, 2010)

@Miss Vickie - 
My bolded points meant the opposite of what you understood them to be. We are, in effect, in agreement on those points. Anyway, I'm done arguing in this thread.

All the best to you and your family.

N.B. - I'm not a healthcare practitioner, I don't have patients. (PhD, not an MD)


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 29, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Hey, guys. Sorry for the "post and run" but I got the word that my brother is dying and I'm making plans to go visit him.



All the best to you and your family.


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## Paquito (Sep 29, 2010)

Mishty said:


> Fat or thin Jenny the American Idol reject bugs the shit out of me.
> She seems kinda dumb, good thing she has that voice, even though I think she'll fall off radar not to long from now, no staying power, no real personality.
> 
> I think it's cause I'm still pissy about the Oscar being wrenched from little Abigail Breslin's hands.
> ...



Are you a VoteForTheWorster, by chance?


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## Mishty (Sep 29, 2010)

Paquito said:


> Are you a VoteForTheWorster, by chance?



I don't think so....maybe. I dunno, I never met my father.


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## D_A_Bunny (Sep 29, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> " Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs... "
> 
> Well considering that it's also a "haunt" of fat women, I don't find it weird at all that a fat woman would keep hanging around here. The forums have plenty to offer to people who read and post for all kinds of reasons. Some of us fat women couldn't care less about the FAs who "haunt" the site. It's just not what we're here for.
> 
> Tracy





joswitch said:


> Sorry, there seems to be some confusion -
> That response was not to you, TracyArts, but to TraciJo, who is not fat, and has not been fat for some years (according to her posts).





TraciJo67 said:


> Well, I'm not fat by YOUR standards, anyway.
> 
> But, yeah, way to miss Tracy's point. She didn't confuse Traci for Tracy. She perceived your issue over the fact that I'm not fat, yet here I am, posting at Dims. Teh horror.



As a lifelong and currently fat woman, I can state honestly that in my opinion
TraciJo has not forgotten AT ALL what it is like to be a fat woman. I do not know her exact size or how much weight she has lost. I don't need to know. I only know that on many occassions she has written things that PROVE TO ME that she understands what it feels like to be a fat woman. 

I also completely understand Tracyarts statement. I too come here more for the camraderie of other fat women than I do for the FAs. I love my FA and have made some great F/FA friends here as well.

I guess that my ultimate point to make is that I don't think that it is fair for you to judge WHY anyone is here. And just because that person does not agree with you does not mean that you should consistently post to them and/or about them stating that they shouldn't be here.


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## Aswani (Sep 30, 2010)

They obviously don't do it that often but sometimes it seems as if Hollywood embraces and rewards a fat talent BECAUSE of the uniqueness of their size. I think people like Gabourney and Mo'Nique and John Goodman and Kathy Bates would end up being lost in the massive sea of thin Hollywood actors if they decided to lose all their weight. They all have great talent, but if they lost all their weight they'd each be one of thousands of actors with great talent fighting to be noticed. But the most noticeable thing that made them unique is no longer there. I'm afraid to think Ms. Hudson will now suddenly be thrust into that dreaded abyss called "Black women that can't find a good acting role to save their lives". 

LOL...I wouldn't be surprised if Carnie Wilson allowed herself to put her weight back on to regain (pun not intended) her identity again.


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## Dromond (Sep 30, 2010)

Damn if this thread didn't bring out the nastiness. I got uncomfortable reading some of the posts.


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## paintsplotch (Sep 30, 2010)

on a personal note... 

i like me.
i like my curves
i like my personality
i like that i have lots of friends and family who love me too.
i dont care what other people do with their bodies.

hugs n kisses!
mwa!:eat1:


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## thirtiesgirl (Oct 1, 2010)

I really shouldn't have read through this whole thread.



joswitch said:


> Hmmm... I wonder if a thin FA wrote that same post, if you'd've liked it so much?



Oy vey. Way to miss the point.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Hmmm... I wonder if a thin FA wrote that same post, if you'd've liked it so much?





joswitch said:


> Ah, I see, your problem is - you just don't wanna hear jack-shit from FAs!.... Weird that you keep hanging round DIMs, haunt of FAs...



Whoa! I know I should let this thread die, but I missed all of this the first time as I was checking in and out. Again, you know I like you Josie, but this is extremely unfair and inaccurate. First of all, TraciJo appears to be agreeing with me in this thread a fair amount and, as I'm sure you're aware, I'm a thin fat admirer. Oh and before you say it's because I'm a woman, a couple of male FAs (one fat, one thin) agreed with some of my points too. I know TraciJo doesn't need me defending her, but I know she might not be the only woman or man around these parts in her situation, so let me say how I see things. Just one FA's opinion. 

This is supposed to be a place where big is beautiful and BBW and BHM feel supported. Right? I'll tell you, I think a lot of people (all sizes) find it just as supporting and just as much a boost to the old self esteem to feel surrounded by friends as they do having someone want to sleep with them. Just saying. (Not accusing you of saying that actually, but some others here sometimes seem to confuse this issue). Again, don't know TraciJo personally, don't always agree with her posts, but I have NEVER seen her be anything other than supportive of the BBW here. I am under the impression she has some very close BBW friends here and I certainly have seen her speak of the beauty of big women. So, what the hell difference does it make if she was ever fat? Actually. I'm a straight FFA, but I've sure gotten close to a lot of BBW on this board and they know I'm not going to sleep with them. Something tells me people appreciate friends and allies of all shapes and sizes around here. 

You're better than this. Seriously.


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## joswitch (Oct 1, 2010)

whome said:


> Maybe you could try calling Gillian from you are what you eat. Maybe she can hook you up. She seems to have no problem finding fat people in the uk:batting:



Gillian McK****?!!
That fakeass scat fetishist who ritually humiliates people on telly!?
She is Satan!


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## joswitch (Oct 1, 2010)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Whoa! I know I should let this thread die, but I missed all of this the first time as I was checking in and out. Again, you know I like you Josie, but this is extremely unfair and inaccurate. First of all, TraciJo appears to be agreeing with me in this thread a fair amount and, as I'm sure you're aware, I'm a thin fat admirer. Oh and before you say it's because I'm a woman, a couple of male FAs (one fat, one thin) agreed with some of my points too. I know TraciJo doesn't need me defending her, but I know she might not be the only woman or man around these parts in her situation, so let me say how I see things. Just one FA's opinion.
> 
> This is supposed to be a place where big is beautiful and BBW and BHM feel supported. Right? I'll tell you, I think a lot of people (all sizes) find it just as supporting and just as much a boost to the old self esteem to feel surrounded by friends as they do having someone want to sleep with them. Just saying. (Not accusing you of saying that actually, but some others here sometimes seem to confuse this issue). Again, don't know TraciJo personally, don't always agree with her posts, but I have NEVER seen her be anything other than supportive of the BBW here. I am under the impression she has some very close BBW friends here and I certainly have seen her speak of the beauty of big women. So, what the hell difference does it make if she was ever fat? Actually. I'm a straight FFA, but I've sure gotten close to a lot of BBW on this board and they know I'm not going to sleep with them. Something tells me people appreciate friends and allies of all shapes and sizes around here.
> 
> You're better than this. Seriously.



Yeah, all very reasonable, general points.

To be specific:
The whole thing between me and TraciJo got real personal and pretty heated when she went out of her way to attack me a couple days ago, in a different thread (Fantasy Girl) which was on a completely different subject, but she chose (as in this thread) to try and drag it onto the same old reading-between-the-lines-instead-of-my-actual-posts-delusions she has about me....
These delusions all boil down to her assumptions about my motivations for every post I make...
As can be seen - when I questioned her about her motivations she really, REALLY didn't like the turnabout... Oh, dear...

Ok, so that was less than saintly of me... 
I've calmed down a bit now and just stuck her on ignore instead... 
As far as I'm concerned it's over....


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## Surlysomething (Feb 10, 2011)

On Oprah, talkin' about it.


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## KittyKitten (Feb 10, 2011)

Does she have to be so annoying and boastful that she lost weight as if she found the cure for Cancer? Ughh. She said she loves clothes now on Oprah  I wish there were more BBWs and voluptuous women in the media who truly loved their size and had an F you attitude to the world. We really need more BBW role models in the media.


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## Surlysomething (Feb 10, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> Does she have to be so annoying and boastful that she lost weight as if she found the cure for Cancer? Ughh. She said she loves clothes now on Oprah  I wish there were more BBWs and voluptuous women in the media who truly loved their size and had an F you attitude to the world. We really need more BBW role models in the media.


 

I'm cool with her being happy and feeling healthy, but for some reason it seems a lot easier to find that kind of motivation when you're getting a FAT endorsement deal and undoubtedly a personal trainer etc. Y'know?


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## LalaCity (Feb 11, 2011)

Why should Jennifer Hudson _have_ to be fat just to please us? If she wants to slim down that's her choice. I know we all crave beautiful fat celebrities to admire and look up to, but they have to _want_ to be fat. If they don't like themselves at that weight, then there's no point in holding them up as role models for the SA community.

And as for her being a traitor to the SA movement, I hate it to break it to ya, folks, but _most people have_ _never heard of it_. _Most people_ have never imbibed any message besides that which tells them that fat is unhealthy and unattractive. If that's all a bigger celebrity ever hears from the public, can we really fault them for wanting to look more attractive in the eyes of mainstream society?

If anyone's to "blame" here, it's probably us for hiding out in our own, comfy "safe" place too much and not doing the job of really getting the SA message out to a mass audience.


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## it's only me (Feb 12, 2011)

lala, i totally agree with u, i feel it's her choice about her health as it is with us all, i truely believe if some of us had the will power, we would try it also, I 'm the first to say i'm one of them, (but i have a bad drug habit my drug of choice is (POTATO CHIPS)lol. and i would probally be as proud of my body as she is. but at the ripe old age of 47 & with my size(217-220) i think i'm doing ok(health wise) just a small problem with my blood pressure but i have that underr control with medication.
yes i TRY to eat right & exercise, i have to because i have 2 thing going against me, 1. on my fathers side of the family there was cancer & leiukemia he died at the age of 54 of leiukemia, & so did his 5 brothers & sisters, 2. on my mothers side it was heart diease& diabetes(my mom) all 6 of her brothers & sisters died of heart diease, she was 71 when she passed
so i 'm sure when most people lose weight it's not about clothes it's mostly about health, & when they start loving the way they look it just changes their whole attitude & i like to see people act like that cause a lot of people when their over weight, some may have self esteem issues, it's like the weight of the world has been lifted of their shoulders,( at least some of the weight). but i'm proud of her,& she didn't really wanna say how much she'd lost, but oprah just wouldn't let it go(lol).


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## Blackhawk2293 (Feb 12, 2011)

All I can say to those who act so surprise is... What did you expect? She's a celebrity. 

If it gets them that extra bit of attention and promotion then some public displays of self loathing and body image issues is the way to go. Especially comments like "I couldn't love myself before" or other such vomitworthy comments.

Want evidence of this? Go into a newspaper shop and look at the front cover of any of those gossip magazines. If someone isn't starving themselves, they're engaging in crazy exercise or plastic surgery and once all of those are exhausted, they may even get into things like excessive plastic surgery so that they can get attention through the "plastic surgery fuck ups" angle.

I call it the "toilet angle"... as in, if your career is about to go down the toilet then fuck yourself up and let the whole world see! LOL

Of course, there are occasionally celebrities that declare "I love my curves" or some other line that makes it appear as if they're comfortable with themselves... until they need money and/or promotion and then it's back to the Toilet Angle.


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> Why should Jennifer Hudson _have_ to be fat just to please us? If she wants to slim down that's her choice. I know we all crave beautiful fat celebrities to admire and look up to, but they have to _want_ to be fat. If they don't like themselves at that weight, then there's no point in holding them up as role models for the SA community.
> 
> And as for her being a traitor to the SA movement, I hate it to break it to ya, folks, but _most people have_ _never heard of it_. _Most people_ have never imbibed any message besides that which tells them that fat is unhealthy and unattractive. If that's all a bigger celebrity ever hears from the public, can we really fault them for wanting to look more attractive in the eyes of mainstream society?
> 
> If anyone's to "blame" here, it's probably us for hiding out in our own, comfy "safe" place too much and not doing the job of really getting the SA message out to a mass audience.



It's not what you do: It's how you do it.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> Why should Jennifer Hudson _have_ to be fat just to please us? If she wants to slim down that's her choice. I know we all crave beautiful fat celebrities to admire and look up to, but they have to _want_ to be fat. If they don't like themselves at that weight, then there's no point in holding them up as role models for the SA community.
> 
> And as for her being a traitor to the SA movement, I hate it to break it to ya, folks, but _most people have_ _never heard of it_. _Most people_ have never imbibed any message besides that which tells them that fat is unhealthy and unattractive. If that's all a bigger celebrity ever hears from the public, can we really fault them for wanting to look more attractive in the eyes of mainstream society?
> 
> If anyone's to "blame" here, it's probably us for hiding out in our own, comfy "safe" place too much and not doing the job of really getting the SA message out to a mass audience.



I don't know what you're trying to say here but whatever it is I strongly disagree. I don't give a rats ass if the woman wants to lose weight. If she does and she's successful I think it's a wonderful but I"m damned sure not going to shut up when comments are made about how fat people can't wear clothes, be successful, accomplish anything or provide as much positive energy in society as they could as a thin person. Worse that it's coming from a dodo bird like her who won a freakin Grammy at her highest weight for crying out loud! Then she turns around and is preaching this message to young people? Fuck her. I don't give a shit about her success now. How dare she belittle our accomplishments and how dare people argue on her behalf by suggesting that we don't have any. Fuck all of that and damn straight I'm going to say something. This really pisses me off. I can't stand to even look at her now and it has NOTHING to do with her weight loss.


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## butch (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say here but whatever it is I strongly disagree. I don't give a rats ass if the woman wants to lose weight. If she does and she's successful I think it's a wonderful but I"m damned sure not going to shut up when comments are made about how fat people can't wear clothes, be successful, accomplish anything or provide as much positive energy in society as they could as a thin person. Worse that it's coming from a dodo bird like her who won a freakin Grammy at her highest weight for crying out loud! Then she turns around and is preaching this message to young people? Fuck her. I don't give a shit about her success now. How dare she belittle our accomplishments and how dare people argue on her behalf by suggesting that we don't have any. Fuck all of that and damn straight I'm going to say something. This really pisses me off. I can't stand to even look at her now and it has NOTHING to do with her weight loss.



I love you Lilly!


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## Surlysomething (Feb 12, 2011)

butch said:


> I love you Lilly!



I love her too!


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say here but whatever it is I strongly disagree. I don't give a rats ass if the woman wants to lose weight. If she does and she's successful I think it's a wonderful but I"m damned sure not going to shut up when comments are made about how fat people can't wear clothes, be successful, accomplish anything or provide as much positive energy in society as they could as a thin person. Worse that it's coming from a dodo bird like her who won a freakin Grammy at her highest weight for crying out loud! Then she turns around and is preaching this message to young people? Fuck her. I don't give a shit about her success now. How dare she belittle our accomplishments and how dare people argue on her behalf by suggesting that we don't have any. Fuck all of that and damn straight I'm going to say something. This really pisses me off. I can't stand to even look at her now and it has NOTHING to do with her weight loss.



Yeah, but I can't recall her ever standing up and saying she wants to be an ambassador for the SA movement (correct me if I'm wrong?). She may well not know it even exists. So we haven't lost a role model. And we can't force people to be our role models if they just don't like themselves heavy. 

I guess I just don't understand the level of vitriol directed toward this woman for endorsing Weight Watchers (I've actually been to WW -- it's not exactly a trip into the bowels of hell to consort with the demons, you know..the program helped me get a grip on my eating habits which I felt were unhealthy for me at the time, and yes, I lost a bit of weight and felt better physically, though I never turned into some impossibly svelte creature).

Anyway, that's beside the point. Her body, ergo, her choice to shed some pounds and be a spokeswoman for a program that helps people who want to do it do it in a non-radical way...

And you know what -- I'm going to go out on a limb here and possibly incur some major wrath, but she's not exactly endorsing anorexia. She still has a curvy, full figure. Albeit a bit smaller than it used to be. I don't really think she's committing a crime here...just saying.

Edit: did I miss something where she said that fat people can't wear clothes, be attractive, or successful? Was that some Oprah moment or whatever?


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## frankman (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say here but whatever it is I strongly disagree. I don't give a rats ass if the woman wants to lose weight. If she does and she's successful I think it's a wonderful but I"m damned sure not going to shut up when comments are made about how fat people can't wear clothes, be successful, accomplish anything or provide as much positive energy in society as they could as a thin person. Worse that it's coming from a dodo bird like her who won a freakin Grammy at her highest weight for crying out loud! Then she turns around and is preaching this message to young people? Fuck her. I don't give a shit about her success now. How dare she belittle our accomplishments and how dare people argue on her behalf by suggesting that we don't have any. Fuck all of that and damn straight I'm going to say something. This really pisses me off. I can't stand to even look at her now and it has NOTHING to do with her weight loss.



Oh my, what anger. It's just a girl who sings songs and likes Weight Watchers. Not that big a deal.

EDIT: unless she stole your guy or something. in that case fuck her.


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## russianrobot (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say here but whatever it is I strongly disagree. I don't give a rats ass if the woman wants to lose weight. If she does and she's successful I think it's a wonderful but I"m damned sure not going to shut up when comments are made about how fat people can't wear clothes, be successful, accomplish anything or provide as much positive energy in society as they could as a thin person. Worse that it's coming from a dodo bird like her who won a freakin Grammy at her highest weight for crying out loud! Then she turns around and is preaching this message to young people? Fuck her. I don't give a shit about her success now. How dare she belittle our accomplishments and how dare people argue on her behalf by suggesting that we don't have any. Fuck all of that and damn straight I'm going to say something. This really pisses me off. I can't stand to even look at her now and it has NOTHING to do with her weight loss.



she won an oscar as well, skinny or fat i wish i had one-tenth the talent as that 'dodo' bird. also when her mother and brother were shot dead, she handled it pretty god damn good for being in the public eye. 99% of us would have curled up in a corner sucking our thumbs without the jaundiced eye of the media glaring on us.

she works in an environment where you are judged *even* more harshly than the everyday bullshit that bbws/bhms have to deal with. she is a human-being who is hearing from probably every 'handler' she has how she has to be thin, yada yada. so she starts believing the 'company' line and share her feelings & its 'Fuck Her'?

do you say that to the people who have weight loss surgery because of a spouse, lover, family whatever? how about the ones who decide on wls on their own? do you say that to a person who goes on a diet and loses weight? A lot of these aforementioned types will sometimes start telling friends, family & yes even young people when they are thinner how much more successful they 'feel' etc. its the way this society is conditioned. 

sure what she said was bat-shit stupid, but your lack of empathy towards her is just as bad.


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## NoWayOut (Feb 12, 2011)

Wagimawr said:


> So...are we cool with Jennifer Hudson losing weight or not?



I've probably said it before, but as long as she's not singing One Shining Moment this year, I'm cool with whatever she does. One month until I find out whether I have to mute it and play David Barrett instead.


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## FA Punk (Feb 12, 2011)

Why should we care about an overrated singer who will forgotten in the next five years?


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## butch (Feb 12, 2011)

I can't speak for Lilly, but as for myself, I don't care at all about what JH does with her life-I'm not a fan, and increasingly find myself disengaging from popular culture in general because it all annoys me, at best. What I do care about is making some claim that fat is such a detriment to one's quality of life when, as Lilly points out, she won an Oscar when she was fat, in only her first movie role. That is bs, pure and simple. The reality is, she got that role in Dreamgirls because she was fat (the role was originated on Broadway by Jennifer Holliday, another former fat woman), and for her to claim that her quality of life has been lessened (and no, I'm not referring to health, I'm referring to the other things of life) is offensive, pure and simple. The rest of us all may as well sign up for 'Heavy,' since we the fat are the most wretched of the earth, it seems.

It is doubly offensive to do this as an official shrill for WW, which makes what she says suspect, even if it is the god's honest truth. I have much more respect (but not much) for celebrities who lose weight and don't try to sell us a damn thing in the process-no jenny craig, ww, nutrisystem, alli, or any of that crap. Are there any? if so, I'd be more inclined to grant them the pass that some of you all are giving to JH, but nope, I don't think there is much to like about a paid spokesperson who is saying their life was so horrible as a fattie in order to add more millions to the pockets of WW executives. 

And, before it is said, she doesn't owe me anything, she doesn't need to be a spokesperson or any of that crap, but in a neoliberal world that increasingly uses 'choice' as a way to avoid systemic inequalities, I don't think her 'choice' is as innocent as others seem to think, and it is one drop in a very large bucket that keeps so many people, fat and thin, in a mind set that allows them to feel as if they are worthless until they have 'perfect' bodies. That mind set affects everyone, so in the long run it benefits all of us, no matter what we weigh or what we want our body to look like and feel like, if we work to lessen messages from public figures about fat being worse than thin.


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## frankman (Feb 12, 2011)

Dude, I think we should be more concerned with teaching people not to look up to random persons on the telly than with these random people selling out any moral idea you might think they ought to have.


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## olwen (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> Yeah, but I can't recall her ever standing up and saying she wants to be an ambassador for the SA movement (correct me if I'm wrong?). She may well not know it even exists. So we haven't lost a role model. And we can't force people to be our role models if they just don't like themselves heavy.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand the level of vitriol directed toward this woman for endorsing Weight Watchers (I've actually been to WW -- it's not exactly a trip into the bowels of hell to consort with the demons, you know..the program helped me get a grip on my eating habits which I felt were unhealthy for me at the time, and yes, I lost a bit of weight and felt better physically, though I never turned into some impossibly svelte creature).
> 
> ...



Lala, how many successful fat black women are there with such visibilty? I can think of three: Jennifer Hudson, Oprah, and Monique. Three. Am I missing any? That's three people who look anything like me. Three people who I can relate to in some small way. When any one of them says how much they hate the way they look what am I supposed to think? What are people who don't know any fat black women supposed to think? Sure she can do whatever she wants with her body, but like it or not the message she is putting out is that if you are fat and black and female, your success is meaningless unless you loose weight. So no matter how many awards I earn, no matter how much shit I get done in my career people won't take me seriously because I'm not thin or trying to get thin and those feelings are reinforced by the example that women like Oprah and Jennifer Husdson set. See?


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

So she was supposed to turn down the role in Dreamgirls because she someday might want to lose weight? Didn't Robert Deniro gain weight for Raging Bull? As I recall, he lost the weight again afterwards. Why aren't we tearing _him_ to shreds? It's what actors and entertainers do, they alter their appearances for movie roles, etc.

And yeah, I realize that Robert DeNiro doesn't endorse weight watchers, but if J. Hudson wants to shill for them because she's making money and at the same time shedding some unwanted poundage, then let her. That's not the same as telling young women to despise themselves because they're not a size zero. Weight watchers isn't an evil organization -- it's a business, yes, and a tool that helps people lose weight if they want to. A lot of fatties do it, not necessarily to become thin, but just to get their weight down to a more manageable place _for them_. What's more, it doesn't push radical measures, just sensible approaches to getting more control over nutrition choices. Why is that such an awful thing?

And there's nothing wrong with feeling like you have a new lease on life when you've done something that makes you feel better about your health, looks, and physical vitality. In her case, it was losing eighty lbs that she didn't want to be carrying around with her. Plenty of people here would like to do the same and it doesn't mean they're "traitors" to the SA movement.


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## gangstadawg (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say here but whatever it is I strongly disagree. I don't give a rats ass if the woman wants to lose weight. If she does and she's successful I think it's a wonderful but I"m damned sure not going to shut up when comments are made about how fat people can't wear clothes, be successful, accomplish anything or provide as much positive energy in society as they could as a thin person. Worse that it's coming from a dodo bird like her who won a freakin Grammy at her highest weight for crying out loud! Then she turns around and is preaching this message to young people? Fuck her. I don't give a shit about her success now. How dare she belittle our accomplishments and how dare people argue on her behalf by suggesting that we don't have any. Fuck all of that and damn straight I'm going to say something. This really pisses me off. I can't stand to even look at her now and it has NOTHING to do with her weight loss.


i have to co-sign your statment. hella agree.


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

olwen said:


> Lala, how many successful fat black women are there with such visibilty? I can think of three: Jennifer Hudson, Oprah, and Monique. Three. Am I missing any? That's three people who look anything like me. Three people who I can relate to in some small way. When any one of them says how much they hate the way they look what am I supposed to think? What are people who don't know any fat black women supposed to think? Sure she can do whatever she wants with her body, but like it or not the message she is putting out is that if you are fat and black and female, your success is meaningless unless you loose weight. So no matter how many awards I earn, no matter how much shit I get done in my career people won't take me seriously because I'm not thin or trying to get thin and those feelings are reinforced by the example that women like Oprah and Jennifer Husdson set. See?



Well, there's Queen Latifah, whose weight has fluctuated over the years and who seems content to be plus-sized...Jordin Sparks, I guess you could say, Gabby Sidibe -- I agree, there aren't many...but again, if a person is not happy with her weight, then we can't insist on her remaining a fat role model, just to please us.

I'm sorry to say, but we are in a minority here of people who like the look of very big people -- most very big people aren't aesthetically pleased with their own shape and want to change it, although often they're content to stay full-figured, just a smaller version of themselves. We can't force people to find something attractive that they don't or to want to carry around weight that they feel is a burden to them physically. But should the fact that they start out their careers as heavy entertainers automatically bar them from ever deciding to lose weight? Who says they wanted to be fat in the first place, just because they gained some success for their talents in the public eye to begin with?


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## gangstadawg (Feb 12, 2011)

olwen said:


> Lala, how many successful fat black women are there with such visibilty? I can think of three: Jennifer Hudson, Oprah, and Monique. Three. Am I missing any? That's three people who look anything like me. Three people who I can relate to in some small way. When any one of them says how much they hate the way they look what am I supposed to think? What are people who don't know any fat black women supposed to think? Sure she can do whatever she wants with her body, but like it or not the message she is putting out is that if you are fat and black and female, your success is meaningless unless you loose weight. So no matter how many awards I earn, no matter how much shit I get done in my career people won't take me seriously because I'm not thin or trying to get thin and those feelings are reinforced by the example that women like Oprah and Jennifer Husdson set. See?


forgot aretha franklin.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> Yeah, but I can't recall her ever standing up and saying she wants to be an ambassador for the SA movement (correct me if I'm wrong?). She may well not know it even exists. So we haven't lost a role model. And we can't force people to be our role models if they just don't like themselves heavy.
> 
> I guess I just don't understand the level of vitriol directed toward this woman for endorsing Weight Watchers (I've actually been to WW -- it's not exactly a trip into the bowels of hell to consort with the demons, you know..the program helped me get a grip on my eating habits which I felt were unhealthy for me at the time, and yes, I lost a bit of weight and felt better physically, though I never turned into some impossibly svelte creature).
> 
> ...



A person needn't be an ambassador, or whatever that's supposed to mean, for me to be angered by what they say. I think I was pretty clear before but I will say it again, I care not about her weight loss. Once more with feeling, I got nothing against weight loss. Why, some of my best friends have even lost weight!  This is only about what she said. I can't understand why every conversation about the poor portrayal of fat people in the media always degenerates into a team effort to talk people down off the ledge about the right to lose weight. No one gives a fuck about her or anybody else's weight loss one way of the the other beyond the fact that it is being used like a stick to beat the humanity out of fat people again. This I don't like and the fact that she's not in the SA community is immaterial. We have a right to an opinion about what she says.


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## olwen (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> Well, there's Queen Latifah, whose weight has fluctuated over the years and who seems content to be plus-sized...Jordin Sparks, I guess you could say, Gabby Sidibe -- I agree, there aren't many...but again, if a person is not happy with her weight, then we can't insist on her remaining a fat role model, just to please us.
> 
> I'm sorry to say, but we are in a minority here of people who like the look of very big people -- most very big people aren't aesthetically pleased with their own shape and want to change it, although often they're content to stay full-figured, just a smaller version of themselves. We can't force people to find something attractive that they don't or to want to carry around weight that they feel is a burden to them physically. But should the fact that they start out their careers as heavy entertainers automatically bar them from ever deciding to lose weight? Who says they wanted to be fat in the first place, just because they gained some success for their talents in the public eye to begin with?





gangstadawg said:


> forgot aretha franklin.



At the height of Aretha's Career I was a baby, I never thought of her as fat until recently actually. But yeah she is one.

Lala, what bugs me most about these entertainers is that at some point I believe all of them have made statements about being happy and proud of their plus size bodies, then did a complete 180 saying how unhappy they were in their bodies and how much better they look and feel after loosing weight (It's only a matter of time till Sidibe goes down that road). It's disappointing at best to hear them say such things and because there are so few fat black women in entertainment they are role models in some form or another whether they like it or not. If I were an aspiring singer, actress, or journalist/media mogul I'd look to them for inspiration and the message I would get is true success and happiness is only contigent upon how I look and I might try all kinds of crazy and/or dangerous things to loose weight fast and boost my career; on the other hand seeing as how success as a fat black woman is so hard to come by, I might not even bother to try, thus keeping the number of women like me to a minimum, and equal representation in the media just isn't going to happen.

On a personal level it just makes me sad to see that I am just not represented as well as say, a thin white male, or even as thin black men. Again, sure they have a right to do with their bodies what they choose, but again, I think they are role models regardless simply because of the lack women like them, like me. It's disheartening to see that 180 happen every time.


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> A person needn't be an ambassador, or whatever that's supposed to mean, for me to be angered by what they say. I think I was pretty clear before but I will say it again, I care not about her weight loss. Once more with feeling, I got nothing against weight loss. Why, some of my best friends have even lost weight!  This is only about what she said. I can't understand why every conversation about the poor portrayal of fat people in the media always degenerates into a team effort to talk people down off the ledge about the right to lose weight. No one gives a fuck about her or anybody else's weight loss one way of the the other beyond the fact that it is being used like a stick to beat the humanity out of fat people again. This I don't like and the fact that she's not in the SA community is immaterial. We have a right to an opinion about what she says.



I don't deny you your right to voice your opinion. But you have said several times that she is out there cruelly mocking and insulting fat people. If this is true, I'll amend my opinion, but I haven't seen it. If you'd like to link me to something she's said I'd be more than happy to read it with an open mind.


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## mossystate (Feb 12, 2011)

Pretty sure fat women are not well-represented no matter the color.


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

olwen said:


> At the height of Aretha's Career I was a baby, I never thought of her as fat until recently actually. But yeah she is one.
> 
> Lala, what bugs me most about these entertainers is that at some point I believe all of them have made statements about being happy and proud of their plus size bodies, then did a complete 180 saying how unhappy they were in their bodies and how much better they look and feel after loosing weight (It's only a matter of time till Sidibe goes down that road). It's disappointing at best to hear them say such things and because there are so few fat black women in entertainment they are role models in some form or another whether they like it or not. If I were an aspiring singer, actress, or journalist/media mogul I'd look to them for inspiration and the message I would get is true success and happiness is only contigent upon how I look and I might try all kinds of crazy and/or dangerous things to loose weight fast and boost my career; on the other hand seeing as how success as a fat black woman is so hard to come by, I might not even bother to try, thus keeping the number of women like me to a minimum, and equal representation in the media just isn't going to happen.
> 
> On a personal level it just makes me sad to see that I am just not represented as well as say, a thin white male, or even as thin black men. Again, sure they have a right to do with their bodies what they choose, but again, I think they are role models regardless simply because of the lack women like them, like me. It's disheartening to see that 180 happen every time.



I know what you mean. To be honest, I've done it myself -- one side of me wanted to feel beautiful and confident with the body I was presently in and said so to the world, while another part of me really wasn't happy at all with my weight and was perpetually contemplating a diet (not to mention, my self-image tends to fluctuate wildly with my mood, my depression, and so on). 

This 180 business is definitely frustrating to see coming from a public figure, I know, but I must say that I have considerable empathy for that sort of complicated and conflicted set of emotions.


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

mossystate said:


> Pretty sure fat women are not well-represented no matter the color.



No, and the few that do exist as popular entertainers in the public eye are relentlessly derided as sub-human by internet bullies and the tabloid press.

Just the other day I was watching the British soul singer Adele on Youtube and the comments, of course, were 90% about her dress size.

Truth be told, if I were famous and plus-sized, I don't know if I'd have the strength or confidence not to cave to the bullying. At the end of the day, these celebrities are just as capable of being wounded and made to feel bad about themselves as the rest of us. I can see wanting to lose weight just to get away from constantly having to hear about it.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> I don't deny you your right to voice your opinion. But you have said several times that she is out there cruelly mocking and insulting fat people. If this is true, I'll amend my opinion, but I haven't seen it. If you'd like to link me to something she's said I'd be more than happy to read it with an open mind.



Unfortunately I can't. They are pop up ads and it's one of those things where I guess you had to be there. In the beginning of her ad campaign there were ads depicting her saying things like "Before I was nothing, but now... TA-DOW!!! *beams*" I thought, "Wha?? What's that supposed to mean, she's a grammy/oscar winner for heaven's sake!" That ad was pretty short lived. I assumed it was because people complained but I guess that is more a reflection of my naivete. I belong to a site about black hair care so her ads pop up from time to time and most have been pretty unremarkable. But every now and then one comes up where she once again makes some kind of declaration about how her success and survival are more successful now that's she's lost weight. Next time it pops up I'll run and get you. You don't have to believe me but my opinion is the same. If I were at all familiar with her work and felt connected to her in some way I would be even more livid on her behalf. This woman is presumably talented and has been through hell. How dare they reduce her value to the world to a slogan about weight loss. I can't understand why people aren't just as outraged as I am if not more so. This company is using her like a dirty rag.


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## olwen (Feb 12, 2011)

mossystate said:


> Pretty sure fat women are not well-represented no matter the color.



This is true, but there are more white women in the media than black women, so the what seems to me to feel like a betrayal, makes it all the more disheartening. For me at least....I suppose every fat woman in the media has done tho: Delta Burke, Carne? Wilson, Roseann, Caroline Rhea, Rikkie Lake. Has Nikki Blonsky gone down that 180 road too? What about Mary MacCarthy, or that chick from those 80's sitcoms (I forget her name)? When will Beth Ditto do it? Ugh.


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

olwen said:


> This is true, but there are more white women in the media than black women, so the what seems to me to feel like a betrayal, makes it all the more disheartening. For me at least....I suppose every fat woman in the media has done tho: Delta Burke, Carne? Wilson, Roseann, Caroline Rhea, Rikkie Lake. Has Nikki Blonsky gone down that 180 road too? What about Mary MacCarthy, or that chick from those 80's sitcoms (I forget her name)? When will Beth Ditto do it? Ugh.



I have always felt that women of color are more acceptable as plus-sized celebrities to the media -- Queen Latifah, Mo'Nique, Sara Ramirez from Grey's Anatomy, to name a few. It's one area (and the _only_ one I can think of) where women of color are treated a bit better than their white sisters. I'm guessing it has to do with the attitudes of men from those different cultures -- whereas African-American and Latino men are known to celebrate women with curves, in white culture such women are supposedly derided as "disgusting" (which definitely isn't true of all white men, but it's the predominate stereotype). Thus, I think, movie producers aren't quite as concerned about Queen Latifah being rejected for her size as they are a white actress.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 12, 2011)

olwen said:


> This is true, but there are more white women in the media than black women, so the what seems to me to feel like a betrayal, makes it all the more disheartening. For me at least....I suppose every fat woman in the media has done tho: Delta Burke, Carne? Wilson, Roseann, Caroline Rhea, Rikkie Lake. Has Nikki Blonsky gone down that 180 road too? What about Mary MacCarthy, or that chick from those 80's sitcoms (I forget her name)? When will Beth Ditto do it? Ugh.



Camryn Manhiem lost weight for personal reasons. Haven't seen her in a while but last I did she was looking great and seemed very pleased with her progress. She refused to talk about her weight loss in the media though. They don't want to hear from you unless you're willing to say something terrible about your old self. Star Jones was a proud fat woman but didn't talk about her weightloss when she decided to do it. Her's was so dramatic though that people couldn't STOP talking about it though and were dang-near hiding in her bathroom to see what she was doing. I think Latifa was losing weight with Jenny Craig. She said she was only going to lose a little and told us all to wait to hear from her. We're still waiting. I don't know what happened to her but people speculate that she didn't lose enough weight for Jenny and the company blew her off. Either that or she wouldn't curtsy to the party line about how she was a piece of shit when she was fatter. Honestly I don't know.


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## LalaCity (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> Unfortunately I can't. They are pop up ads and it's one of those things where I guess you had to be there. In the beginning of her ad campaign there were ads depicting her saying things like "Before I was nothing, but now... TA-DOW!!! *beams*" I thought, "Wha?? What's that supposed to mean, she's a grammy/oscar winner for heaven's sake!" That ad was pretty short lived......Next time it pops up I'll run and get you. You don't have to believe me but my opinion is the same.



It's not that I don't believe you, but she always struck me as the positive sort of person who wasn't out to deride or defame anyone else over appearance. If she has, then that's really disappointing to hear.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 12, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> It's not that I don't believe you, but she always struck me as the positive sort of person who wasn't out to deride or defame anyone else over appearance. If she has, then that's really disappointing to hear.



Well to be clear she never said Fat people are horrible or anything like that. The ads are more a reflection of what she feels or thinks about herself. She obviously hated being fat and you know if that's how she feels, what are you going to do? It's disturbing though, that a person with her success and her good looks will get up and say it's all meaningless because of her weight. I don't think there is any ill intended in her saying what she's said but I don't think this is a healthy message to be putting out there. In my view this company is promoting mental illness as a means to increase sales of their products. Overall I think Weight Watchers is a good program but the way they are going about things really really really bothers me.


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## olwen (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes, those first few ads were pretty damning to fat people. I was like shocked and disgusted and had no idea Jennifer Hudson felt that way about her body since she never let on about it and kept saying the opposite. 

As for blacks being more forgiving of weight. I dunno. I have mixed feelings about that. The message I got as a kid from my family was that being fat was a fate worse than death. I went to all black/latino schools and the skinny chicks still got more attention from the guys than I did. In general I get more attention from black guys than any other race, and I assume it's cause I'm also black, not because of my size since people tend to date within their own race.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 12, 2011)

olwen said:


> Yes, those first few ads were pretty damning to fat people. I was like shocked and disgusted and had no idea Jennifer Hudson felt that way about her body since she never let on about it and kept saying the opposite.
> 
> As for blacks being more forgiving of weight. I dunno. I have mixed feelings about that. The message I got as a kid from my family was that being fat was a fate worse than death. I went to all black/latino schools and the skinny chicks still got more attention from the guys than I did. In general I get more attention from black guys than any other race, and I assume it's cause I'm also black, not because of my size since people tend to date within their own race.



Thank you olwen. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw those and they WERE really bad. Like sloppy bad, I couldn't believe they let that one get away. Fat bashing has become the new gimmick these days. Anybody with a dying career like Kathy Griffin or those of her ilk in order to make the papers all they have to say is, "Duhh, fat people iz fet, teehee." Suddenly they're in the news and are relevent for 3 fleeting minutes. Attack ads and pontifical statements about fat people are becoming increasingly more common lately. A lot of them are really badly done, like the ones in the Hudson ads. It seems like its deliberately posed that way to provoke a response that will get people talking. The saying may go that when it comes to weight loss there is no such thing as bad publicity.


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## Surlysomething (Feb 12, 2011)

"I just don't let people impose their insecurities on me. They may have a problem with being a size 12, but I don't," the curvy singer-actress tells PEOPLE" - Jennifer Hudson


I posted this earlier in the thread. But wouldn't it have been interesting if it was mentioned in any of the ads or her visit on Oprah?


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## Blackhawk2293 (Feb 12, 2011)

Surlysomething said:


> "I just don't let people impose their insecurities on me. They may have a problem with being a size 12, but I don't," the curvy singer-actress tells PEOPLE" - Jennifer Hudson
> 
> 
> I posted this earlier in the thread. But wouldn't it have been interesting if it was mentioned in any of the ads or her visit on Oprah?




This is why celebs should just shut the fuck up and stick to what they're actually talented with, be that singing, acting, drawing, stripping, whatever.

Once they branch out and start preaching to the masses it usually ends in contradictions and/or hypocricy.


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## olwen (Feb 12, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> Thank you olwen. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw those and they WERE really bad. Like sloppy bad, I couldn't believe they let that one get away. Fat bashing has become the new gimmick these days. Anybody with a dying career like Kathy Griffin or those of her ilk in order to make the papers all they have to say is, "Duhh, fat people iz fet, teehee." Suddenly they're in the news and are relevent for 3 fleeting minutes. Attack ads and pontifical statements about fat people are becoming increasingly more common lately. A lot of them are really badly done, like the ones in the Hudson ads. It seems like its deliberately posed that way to provoke a response that will get people talking. The saying may go that when it comes to weight loss there is no such thing as bad publicity.



If not for celebrity culture I'm sure the "fat is bad" message wouldn't be so frequently uttered. Plus the companies that benefit most from that message, companies like weight watchers and the researchers they fund wouldn't make so much effing money.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (Feb 12, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> Christakes, she looks like she is hungry. She will gain her original weight back. She looked so much more beautiful before the drastic weight loss.




Jennifer Hudson is a very attractive woman.  She looks happy and healthy. I would prefer her with 40 more pounds on her, though.


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## Miss Vickie (Feb 12, 2011)

Blackhawk2293 said:


> This is why celebs should just shut the fuck up and stick to what they're actually talented with, be that singing, acting, drawing, stripping, whatever.
> 
> Once they branch out and start preaching to the masses it usually ends in contradictions and/or hypocricy.



It's celebrity endorsements -- the name of the game. No different than thousands of ball players over the years who have shilled for everything from Joe Namath selling pantyhose to Joe Montana selling... whatever he sells. It's a handy way to make a few bucks to salt away when the celebrity goes away, as it always does.

Why is it any different when Jennifer Hudson does it? Or is it just because it bugs us? Which is okay, but we should be honest about that, and not try to paint it as a larger issue with product endorsements. Know what I mean?

The whole thing makes me sad. Sad if (and only if) she felt she needed to lose weight to get more roles, sad because has made some of us feel bad, but happy as hell for her if she's truly happy. That girl has been though some shit, and deserves a little peace. But if she's saying disparaging remarks about fat people (which I have not seen) then I wish someone would tell her how her remarks make people feel, because I'm guessing that's not her intent.


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## cupcakediva (Feb 13, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> Unfortunately I can't. They are pop up ads and it's one of those things where I guess you had to be there. In the beginning of her ad campaign there were ads depicting her saying things like "Before I was nothing, but now... TA-DOW!!! *beams*" I thought, "Wha?? What's that supposed to mean, she's a grammy/oscar winner for heaven's sake!" That ad was pretty short lived. I assumed it was because people complained but I guess that is more a reflection of my naivete. I belong to a site about black hair care so her ads pop up from time to time and most have been pretty unremarkable. But every now and then one comes up where she once again makes some kind of declaration about how her success and survival are more successful now that's she's lost weight. Next time it pops up I'll run and get you. You don't have to believe me but my opinion is the same. If I were at all familiar with her work and felt connected to her in some way I would be even more livid on her behalf. This woman is presumably talented and has been through hell. How dare they reduce her value to the world to a slogan about weight loss. I can't understand why people aren't just as outraged as I am if not more so. This company is using her like a dirty rag.



I think I remember that also there was one when shes like "i feel all kinds of good bout myself now! or something like that i was like geez Jen lol!


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## it's only me (Feb 13, 2011)

miss vickie, i think u hit the nail right on the head, why j hud? what about all the other sucessful people that has lost weight, the ones that are not stars or famous, some have probally said the same things you've said j hud had said, probally worse(which i also haven't heard j-hud say cause i don't follow her career that much), but i have heard some say all kinds of things, on oprah, tlc, discovery health channel & other weight loss shows on those channels, but i don't let it get to me none what so ever, because to me it all boils down to one thing, we all have control over our own bodies, we have to take control of our own health & well being, can't no one live for us we have to live for ourselves. 

if we like being curvy then we should be curvy, if we wanna lose weight & be slim then we should do what is necessary to lose weight, if we all think about it, as for myself in my life time i've heard all kinds of negative comments about my weight, very hurtful things but i'm still living, i remember something my husband said to me once i was feeling sorry for myself about my weight,& he said " i'm satisfied with your weight, but if your not then stop complaining & do something about it." 

just let j-hud be j-hud, let her be happy & confident, cause to me she truely deserve it.
wow, i normally don't get in these kinds of topics & debate or argue over things i guess i must be slipping(lol).


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## Blackhawk2293 (Feb 13, 2011)

Miss Vickie said:


> It's celebrity endorsements -- the name of the game. No different than thousands of ball players over the years who have shilled for everything from Joe Namath selling pantyhose to Joe Montana selling... whatever he sells. It's a handy way to make a few bucks to salt away when the celebrity goes away, as it always does.
> 
> Why is it any different when Jennifer Hudson does it? Or is it just because it bugs us? Which is okay, but we should be honest about that, and not try to paint it as a larger issue with product endorsements. Know what I mean?
> 
> The whole thing makes me sad. Sad if (and only if) she felt she needed to lose weight to get more roles, sad because has made some of us feel bad, but happy as hell for her if she's truly happy. That girl has been though some shit, and deserves a little peace. But if she's saying disparaging remarks about fat people (which I have not seen) then I wish someone would tell her how her remarks make people feel, because I'm guessing that's not her intent.



Promoting a product is one thing but I doubt Joe Namath would have walked around saying that he really hated himself because he didn't wear the particular type of pantyhose that he was peddling.

If you think that the product really works or it looks good then fine, promote it on its own merit.

It's the psychological aspect of it that pisses off a lot of people, including me. This need to make people feel really useless and shit about themselves unless they buy that particular product, it's really a manipulative and nasty way of selling something because it preys on people's insecurities and vulnerabilities. Selling through fear. 

It is especially manipulative when celebs go on TV and openly disclose their own insecurities and vulnerabilities for no other reason than to sell the product.


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## butch (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm curious, though, for those of you saying "if someone wants to be fat, they should be fat, if they want to be thin, they should be thin" how does one do that when diets have a 95% failure rate, and WLS has a significant faliure rate as well, in addition to other possible health concerns, not to mention the costs associated with surgery? 

Seriously, I'm not trying to beat a rhetorical horse here, I'm curious how people see this idea working when the statistics, as well as most of our stories, show that this isn't a viable 'choice' for most fat people.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 13, 2011)

it's only me said:


> miss vickie, i think u hit the nail right on the head, why j hud? what about all the other sucessful people that has lost weight, the ones that are not stars or famous, some have probally said the same things you've said j hud had said, probally worse(which i also haven't heard j-hud say cause i don't follow her career that much), but i have heard some say all kinds of things, on oprah, tlc, discovery health channel & other weight loss shows on those channels, but i don't let it get to me none what so ever, because to me it all boils down to one thing, we all have control over our own bodies, we have to take control of our own health & well being, can't no one live for us we have to live for ourselves.
> 
> if we like being curvy then we should be curvy, if we wanna lose weight & be slim then we should do what is necessary to lose weight, if we all think about it, as for myself in my life time i've heard all kinds of negative comments about my weight, very hurtful things but i'm still living, i remember something my husband said to me once i was feeling sorry for myself about my weight,& he said " i'm satisfied with your weight, but if your not then stop complaining & do something about it."
> 
> ...



Hi it's only me! Nice to see you posting and joining the fray. I'm not going to comment on your thoughts on all of this. We're all here sharing our opinions and opinions are going to differ so all that is cool. I just wanted to point out that this is a place where size acceptance issues are meant to be discussed. Periodically someone is going to open a topic about stuff like this and people are going to expound upon why they love or hate everything about it. This is the place for that so asking, "Why talk about Jennifer Hudson," is very out of place here. Where else are we supposed to talk about the things that bother or inspire us? This is not the place for shooing people away from discussions of this nature.

We would be fine with letting jhud be jhud if jhud were actually being jhud but she's not. Jhud is actually being a mouthpiece for Weight Watchers International and we don't like what's being said. I know lots of people who hate being fat but I'm not talking about them. They're making their way along but Jhud is selling something and playing upon the most base of emotional insecurities and fears to do so. People actually kill themselves over these kinds of feelings of dispair and ridicule and though the WW way is somewhat healthy there is no guarantee that people will lose weight on it or keep it off. The results are not typical and I think these damning elements about being a walking blob of fail if you can't lose the weight are harmful. Jhud is not doing her thing, she's doing theirs which is very predatory. This isn't about her health at all, they are tying it to her success as a person and I believe this is wrong.


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## TraciJo67 (Feb 13, 2011)

butch said:


> I'm curious, though, for those of you saying "if someone wants to be fat, they should be fat, if they want to be thin, they should be thin" how does one do that when diets have a 95% failure rate, and WLS has a significant faliure rate as well, in addition to other possible health concerns, not to mention the costs associated with surgery?
> 
> Seriously, I'm not trying to beat a rhetorical horse here, I'm curious how people see this idea working when the statistics, as well as most of our stories, show that this isn't a viable 'choice' for most fat people.


 
Diets fail because they are restrictive and ridiculously difficult and because we're only human and we want to eat delicious food, and in larger than a "deck of cards" portions. But I think that it's misleading to say that we're all just going to fail, and in its own way, it's just as harmful. What are the options for people who absolutely MUST lose weight in order to regain mobility, reduce comorbids, have a shot at getting a life saving surgery (like a heart transplant)? Not that I'm proposing that only these people have valid reasons for losing weight. Anyone who wants to, for whatever personal reasons they have, should feel empowered to make those choices without condemnation from anyone ... and that includes from within the size acceptance movement.

I viewed some of Hudson's ads at the WW site. I don't see what is so shocking or damning about them (though perhaps they weren't the ads that have upset Lilly & others). Yes, they are selling something. Certainly, she's tying her success as a person in with her weight loss and the underlying assumption is that she wasn't as successful when she was heavier. I don't think it's a stretch, though, to believe that these are her REAL feelings, not simply fabricated to sell a product. Given the line of work that she's in, I can't imagine the pressure she must have felt to conform and to slide her body into single digit sizes. I'm not sure what those opposed to her messages feels that she owes us, personally. She made her choices, for her own reasons, and she's bought into the party line that Weight Watchers is the key to her own happy ending. So ... ? She doesn't get to have those feelings? She's a bad person, a traitor to size acceptance, a deluded fool? 

I've tried WW, among other things, and overall I actually like their approach. They focus on balance, making healthy choices, and a whole lot less on clothing sizes and portion control than the average person (that is, someone who isn't interested in weight loss) might think. I don't want to gain weight. I get to make that choice for myself, and I don't have to explain it to anyone. I'm not interested in being a size 6 or in what other people think of my body. I'm not Jennifer Hudson. I choose to do what I do for my own personal reasons, not the least among them being that I'm an older mother and I want to remain healthy and mobile for my 4-year-old son. Sure, I'd love to continue sucking down full-fat whole milk lattes and eating whole boxes of cheese crackers in place of an actual meal. But I know that this is not a healthy choice for me and that it's not ultimately sustainable in terms of what I value most in my life. 

So 95% failure rates and statistics be damned. To me, this seems like an excuse to personally fail. Why try at all, if I'm just doomed to failure? 

I'd feel differently about Jennifer Hudson's remarks if they were all about 'teh ugly fat' and shuddering in the general direction of anyone who'd rather eat a cupcake than a carrot stick. We *ALL* get to make our choices and shouldn't be condemned for them. We *ALL* deserve to be treated with dignity and with respect. But let's stop pretending that weight has nothing whatsoever to do with the choices that we make. I see Jennifer Hudson's message to be one of personal empowerment, not focused on shaming others. I'd like to know why so many of us just automatically assume shame or blame or judgment.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 13, 2011)

Well let me ask this. I'm not familiar at all with Hudson's work. Is she really a talent or is she just on the high side or mediocre? If abilities like hers come a dime a dozen and her award was merely a "right place at the right time" kind of thing then maybe weight loss really is the key to her success, I don't really know. Someone like Aretha Franklin or the late Luther Vandross would be remarkable at any size but if Hudson is just another pretty singer I could see how weight loss would be the key to her success if it brings her any. It does irk me that a lot of the singers that are out there are not really that good. Some of them if it weren't for their looks they'd still be waiting tables at Chuck E Cheese. I see a lot of great musicians out there being ignored in favor of bringing us more Black Eyed Peas. I still don't think it's cool.

ETA!! Oh my GOD!! She's really good!! You folks are NUTS who are definding this success malarky story. The girl can SANG! I hate Weight Watchers more than EVER now. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3lTXB4t2so

What the heck is WRONG with y'all?


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## olwen (Feb 13, 2011)

> Given the line of work that she's in, I can't imagine the pressure she must have felt to conform and to slide her body into single digit sizes. I'm not sure what those opposed to her messages feels that she owes us, personally. She made her choices, for her own reasons, and she's bought into the party line that Weight Watchers is the key to her own happy ending. So ... ? She doesn't get to have those feelings? She's a bad person, a traitor to size acceptance, a deluded fool?



It's not that she owes anybody anything, it's that there are a couple things that are troubling here: 1)The hypocrisy in saying she loved her body then turning around and saying no, sorry, I actually hated myself fat. 2)The reinforcement of the message that "fat is bad" 3)The reinforcement of the idea that one's success is tied to how one looks

Fat isn't bad for everyone all the time. It is possible to be fat and not have a bunch of comorbids. The level of fear of fat is over inflated and when a celebrity endorses diet products/programs it reinforces that fear. To see a person who previously stated she was proud of her fat body say she actually hated it makes it that much harder to counter the idea that fat is bad. For a lot of people the process of yo-yo dieting (an attempt to counter the message that fat is bad) causes more harm than maintaining a steady higher weight would be. So I dunno, five years from now she might gain all that weight back, but since she can probably afford a personal trainer, a team of stylists, a cook, adequate health care, and all whatever else she needs she might not gain it all back, but most people don't have those resources and since most people are so fearful of "teh death fatz" they behave irrationally when it comes obtaining thin that's why 95% of diets fail. No one is saying don't not be healthy. Just that dieting in and of itself isn't a good way to obtain life long health. Moderating other behaviors are, but that's not the message we are sold. What we are sold is fat is bad, you are bad for being fat, spend your money on X product so you will be the good, happy and better version of you that we are guilting you into desiring. It may or may not be better for you, but it sure is better for our bottom line. 

And again, no, she doesn't owe anybody anything, but I've already explained up thread the main reasons why I was disappointed by her endorsement of WW.


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## butch (Feb 13, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> Diets fail because they are restrictive and ridiculously difficult and because we're only human and we want to eat delicious food, and in larger than a "deck of cards" portions. But I think that it's misleading to say that we're all just going to fail, and in its own way, it's just as harmful. What are the options for people who absolutely MUST lose weight in order to regain mobility, reduce comorbids, have a shot at getting a life saving surgery (like a heart transplant)? Not that I'm proposing that only these people have valid reasons for losing weight. Anyone who wants to, for whatever personal reasons they have, should feel empowered to make those choices without condemnation from anyone ... and that includes from within the size acceptance movement.
> 
> I viewed some of Hudson's ads at the WW site. I don't see what is so shocking or damning about them (though perhaps they weren't the ads that have upset Lilly & others). Yes, they are selling something. Certainly, she's tying her success as a person in with her weight loss and the underlying assumption is that she wasn't as successful when she was heavier. I don't think it's a stretch, though, to believe that these are her REAL feelings, not simply fabricated to sell a product. Given the line of work that she's in, I can't imagine the pressure she must have felt to conform and to slide her body into single digit sizes. I'm not sure what those opposed to her messages feels that she owes us, personally. She made her choices, for her own reasons, and she's bought into the party line that Weight Watchers is the key to her own happy ending. So ... ? She doesn't get to have those feelings? She's a bad person, a traitor to size acceptance, a deluded fool?
> 
> ...



The other stuff is all personal feelings, and unlikely to change, so thankfully we all can say our piece here, just like JH can say whatever she wants on TV and in the media. What I will respond to, which may or may not be useful, is your leap in logic to think that I simply believe that any changes to one's physcial well-being if they are fat is going to 'fail,' because I find statistics (and personal stories, which seem more persuasive than statistics anyway) about the lack of long term success on diets to mean that fat people should give up on their health and well-being.

I am a champion of a non-dieting HAES approach, and I say that as someone who has lost a noticable amount of weight following said approach. When i ask about diets and surgery, I ask because I wonder why more people don't pick up an HAES approach, which in at least one government funded study, shows a higher success rate than traditional diets, in terms of improved health, both physical and mental. To me, an HAES approach that does not focus on weight loss, but instead on making different food choices, and movement choices, to increase the physical well-being of an individual, is nothing like dieting and weight loss, and I wonder why more people don't embrace it.

It isn't just semantics, it is a whole mindset that would change how all of us view our bodies, and how we treat it, in positive ways, and I wonder why so many people are resistent to that kind of mind change. It simply asks us to look at ourselves without all the negative baggage attached to fat, and to make choices that focus on behaviors and thoughts instead of numbers on a scale.

Those choices migh include weight loss, gain of muscle mass, whatever, and that is fine, if it is done without society telling us that this is the only way we can be healthy and accepatable to the rest of the world. I get that I am in the minority here in seeing HAES as producng the same results (or better) as what we're promised with traditional diets, but I am honestly curious how individuals see fatness as a choice that can be changed with WW or any other program when most of us have lifetimes of stories that say otherwise. 

I know most folks here support JH and her choices, and her need to let us all know of them. It makes me feel profoundly sad at the level of fat hatred in the world that people like JH and Oprah, for that matter, who are at the top of their game, still feel inadequate because of the size of their body. No matter how you feel about weight loss, I would think people invested in SA would also have a sense of sadness or anger about that.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 14, 2011)

butch said:


> The other stuff is all personal feelings, and unlikely to change, so thankfully we all can say our piece here, just like JH can say whatever she wants on TV and in the media. What I will respond to, which may or may not be useful, is your leap in logic to think that I simply believe that any changes to one's physcial well-being if they are fat is going to 'fail,' because I find statistics (and personal stories, which seem more persuasive than statistics anyway) about the lack of long term success on diets to mean that fat people should give up on their health and well-being.
> 
> I am a champion of a non-dieting HAES approach, and I say that as someone who has lost a noticable amount of weight following said approach. When i ask about diets and surgery, I ask because I wonder why more people don't pick up an HAES approach, which in at least one government funded study, shows a higher success rate than traditional diets, in terms of improved health, both physical and mental. To me, an HAES approach that does not focus on weight loss, but instead on making different food choices, and movement choices, to increase the physical well-being of an individual, is nothing like dieting and weight loss, and I wonder why more people don't embrace it.
> 
> ...



I can't believe that Beyonce is out there screeching out more records and Jennifer Hudson is working the Oprah circuit hawking Weight Watchers like it's the key to her relevency an no one thinks there is anything wrong with this. I'm telling you, size acceptance is a stillborn death. I don't even know what to say anymore around here.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 14, 2011)

LillyBBBW said:


> I'm telling you, size acceptance is a stillborn death.



Just because most people don't support it doesn't mean no one will.


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## NancyGirl74 (Feb 14, 2011)

butch said:


> I know most folks here support JH and her choices, and her need to let us all know of them. It makes me feel profoundly sad at the level of fat hatred in the world that people like JH and Oprah, for that matter, who are at the top of their game, still feel inadequate because of the size of their body. No matter how you feel about weight loss, I would think people invested in SA would also have a sense of sadness or anger about that.





LillyBBBW said:


> I can't believe that Beyonce is out there screeching out more records and Jennifer Hudson is working the Oprah circuit hawking Weight Watchers like it's the key to her relevency an no one thinks there is anything wrong with this. I'm telling you, size acceptance is a stillborn death. I don't even know what to say anymore around here.



I agree with what you are both saying. Losing weight when you want to for your own sake is one thing. Losing weight because society tells you that your talents are worthless if you are fat is another. I think the celebs listed (Oprah, Carnie, Jennifer Hudson) fall into that category and that aspect of it is saddening. 

Still, as individuals they have made the choice to lose weight. That in and of it's self is not wrong. If size acceptance asks the world to accept people who are fat then why can't we accept people who were once fat for who they are now? It is Size Acceptance that we are looking for, not size tolerance as long as it suits our purpose. I don't think SA is dead. I think it needs to learn to be what it claims to be -- accepting of size, no matter what size an individual happens to be...or choses to be.


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## Jes (Feb 14, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> If anyone's to "blame" here, it's probably us for hiding out in our own, comfy "safe" place too much and not doing the job of really getting the SA message out to a mass audience.



Good point! I wish we had a fat activism thread here at Dims.


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## Jes (Feb 14, 2011)

Blackhawk2293 said:


> Once they branch out and start preaching to the masses it usually ends in contradictions and/or hypocricy.



Maybe we as a culture (which then drives the media--though certainly the media comes up with some of it on its own) should stop asking celebrities about that shit! How many times did J. Hudson sit down in an interview chair to talk about her new album or her movie and have someone ask her about the size of her ass? I'm guessing EVERY SINGLE TIME. So don't blame her for opening her mouth out of the blue.


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## EtobicokeFA (Feb 14, 2011)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I agree with what you are both saying. Losing weight when you want to for your own sake is one thing. Losing weight because society tells you that your talents are worthless if you are fat is another. I think the celebs listed (Oprah, Carnie, Jennifer Hudson) fall into that category and that aspect of it is saddening.
> 
> Still, as individuals they have made the choice to lose weight. That in and of it's self is not wrong. If size acceptance asks the world to accept people who are fat then why can't we accept people who were once fat for who they are now? It is Size Acceptance that we are looking for, not size tolerance as long as it suits our purpose. I don't think SA is dead. I think it needs to learn to be what it claims to be -- accepting of size, no matter what size an individual happens to be...or chooses to be.



I agree with you. However, sometimes it is hard to tell if a celeb choose to lose weight is really their choose or they were pressured into it. 

I am also a supporter of the idea that SA could be a little more pro-active.


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## LillyBBBW (Feb 14, 2011)

EtobicokeFA said:


> I agree with you. However, sometimes it is hard to tell if a celeb choose to lose weight is really their choose or they were pressured into it.
> 
> I am also a supporter of the idea that SA could be a little more pro-active.



For me this isn't really about weight loss, it's about the value of human beings. I'm not even so sure I'm all that opposed to someone who loses weight simply to further their career. We all do a lot of things in order to make our appearance more appealing to one career choice or another. Again like I've said before, where it crosses the line is to equate thick hips or gray roots with a person's value and the fact that these values are being packaged and sold to young people: success may look and sound like success but it really isn't unless you're a size 6/under 25/etc. As far as being more pro active I'm not really sure how I feel about that. Speaking up about it often leads to an avalanche of people saying but... but... that's just the way it IS, like we're not supposed to upset the apple cart. Then these days any negative attention is as good as positive. They'll use it. It seems the best course of action is to keep on trucking, don't listen to the snarky downpressers who systematicly devalue your positive contributions and keep making them. At times I still chose to say something anyway because sometimes people need to be reminded that they are more than just a number on the scale even if they do want those numbers to change for personal reasons.


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