# Who pays? Dating dilemma...



## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 26, 2006)

Allright, I have a question, and I need some input.

SO, if a guy asks you out, the guy is obliged to pay.
If the guy asked you out, but you pick the restaurant, you go dutch?

A suitor asked to take me out to brunch, and I said yes. I asked him to pick a place and he left that up to me. I picked a high end place that is in my neighborhood. So, he's into me, and whatnot, the brunch is pleasant, and then the check comes in. Now, I'm about to grab for my purse and start divving up the check, but then we get into another conversation and we push the bill aside for a few minutes. So, we resolve to leave the establishment and again the bill situation comes up.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't he supposed to pick up the bill?
He makes no move to do so, so I take some money out and he takes out a huge wad of 20's and 50's and pays for his share.
So, my friends say that his behaviour is a dealbreaker because he didn't pay. 
What do you all think?


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2006)

The one who does the inviting does the paying.

Call me old fashioned, but a real man would never have let you even think about your wallet on a first date.

The fact that you chose the restaurant is not even an issue.. 

Furthermore [and there may be some disagreement on this] I think if he invites you out on a date, it is up to him to be the de facto "host" and he should decide where to take you. The man should be trying to impress you. 

The only thing I think you should have done differently is not reached for the check at all. Some men think women expect to pay or will be insulted if he doesn't let you pay your half...kind of like men who worry about opening doors for women, some guys will say "I was raised to open doors for women but I did it for this one and she yelled at me for being a sexist pig, so now i'm hesitant." He may have expected to pay for the whole thing, but when you reached for your wallet, he may have thought you'd be insulted or angry if you were not "allowed" to pay for your brunch.


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## AnnMarie (Dec 26, 2006)

Yeah, the person who invites should pay on dates. Only weird area is if it weren't REALLY a date, but a "hey, let's hang out" which can be ambiguous at best. 

If there's been any canoodling, or talk of, then it's a date. 

He should have paid, and you picking the place (especially since he TOLD you to pick it) is not an issue... agree with LovesBHMs on that. 

Even if for some reason the BS "I thought you'd be insulted" thing were true, he should have at least said "I don't want to offend you, but I'd like very much to pay for this..." or something. By not saying anything he came off a bit cheap. 

Now, dealbreaker? I don't think so, I'd go out again, see how other situations are handled. Maybe he'll pull a "since we went dutch last time, I'm taking you OUT this time - out meaning 'I pay' " or something along those lines. 

Only other exception is that if you know a guy is a student or not making much money, etc... then offering to pay your share, or even picking up the whole bill from time to time (if you're making money) is not a big deal.


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## SamanthaNY (Dec 26, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> He makes no move to do so, so I take some money out and he takes out a huge wad of 20's and 50's and pays for his share.


Tacky. Tacky, tacky, tacky. 

Unless you want to spend your time shooling this guy on manners and etiquette - turn down a second date, imo.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2006)

he had a 'big wad of twenties and fifties' so money wasn't an issue.

I have to respectfully disagree with AM about you paying. If he's not making much money [student or lower income job] then he should invite you to eat at a place he can afford to take you. Bottom line, he does the inviting, he should expect to pay. If he lets you choose the place, then he does so with the understanding that he is treating you to the brunch locale of your choice.

Once you're dating, or if you asked him out, then you can and should choose a place in your price range and expect to pay if you know for a fact that it would be a burden on him. I can't stand it when women demand men take them to places they know the guy can't afford or expect him to demonstrate how much he cares via his wallet. _Tres_ classless.


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## AnnMarie (Dec 26, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> he had a 'big wad of twenties and fifties' so money wasn't an issue.
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with AM about you paying. If he's not making much money [student or lower income job] then he should invite you to eat at a place he can afford to take you. Bottom line, he does the inviting, he should expect to pay. If he lets you choose the place, then he does so with the understanding that he is treating you to the brunch locale of your choice.
> 
> Once you're dating, or if you asked him out, then you can and should choose a place in your price range and expect to pay if you know for a fact that it would be a burden on him. I can't stand it when women demand men take them to places they know the guy can't afford or expect him to demonstrate how much he cares via his wallet. _Tres_ classless.



I meant when dating a student or lower income (what I meant by from "time to time"), not first date. 

If I didn't make it abundantly clear above, he invited - he should have paid.


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## Actor4hire (Dec 26, 2006)

Ok, here is the deal. Wether or not you asked or he asked, you chose the place or he did, HE SHOULD HAVE PAID..... Period, end of story.... 

I know this is 2006 (almost 2007) & I know we all should be "P.C." but a guy should pay, it is no different than opening the door for a woman. Now, let's say you guys had been on a few dates, then going dutch or even you picking up the bill is cool. 

Just my opinion.... 

PS, him taking out a wad of money & then splitting was an asshole move. :bow:


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## clynn (Dec 26, 2006)

I work with a lot of men and not one of them would ever let the woman pick up the check (I don't even date any of them, but if we all go out for drinks or a bite, they pay). I think the man should pay at least the first few dates, then the woman can offer to go dutch after that. I also believe that since this was a brunch date and not a dinner date, regardless of what type of restaurant you all went to, he should have totally paid the whole tab. I wouldn't even answer the phone if he called again.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 26, 2006)

I could be off-base but sounds like to me that he saw you reach for your pocketbook and then decided to let you pay the tab. Someone that takes advantage of a situation? Wow, seems mighty impolite not to at least OFFER to pay your way since it was your first date and HE INVITED YOU out- not vice versa. Ahhhhh, jeez, I'm disgusted and pissed off now  
I think, at the very least, you should tell him that you found it somehow wrong if he invites you again..... don't let this set a trend. 
Btw, this come from a woman that is willing to pick up the whole tab SOME of the time- but does enjoy the gentleman to pay the way when he invites her. My female friend and I take turns paying- there are times that she simply will not allow me to pay. That guy couldnt be bothered to insist? Gawd, I'm getting annoyed again at how he treated you.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 26, 2006)

I've gone out on dates before (in long term situations) and I've paid my part or have picked inexpensive places in consideration to my dates of limited income sources.

I just thought that it was weird that he didn't offer to pay and my roomates were just apalled by his behaviour.

Then again, those were $20 dollar pancakes. :doh:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 26, 2006)

^^Nah, you got a glimpse of the future with him, imo. If he's THAT rude on a first date, it's only downhill from there.....


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2006)

See I wasn't annoyed before, but now reading Green Eyed Fairy's post, I've gotten annoyed since she's annoyed. And I'm starting to see her point. She's right...*he* invited *you.*

You know, I even just realized something else. What if a brunch out was not within your means, but you assumed his invitation meant he was paying? It's even more rude that if you were on a tight budget you were suddenly forced to pay an unexpected expense.

He should have insisted.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 26, 2006)

or maybe he didn't like the fact that I wasn't (visibly) reciprocating his advances...

I mean, if a guy feels that he isn't getting anywhere in a date, the he doesn't feel obligated to pay, right?


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> Then again, those were $20 dollar pancakes. :doh:



Eff how much the pancakes cost. You're entitled to expensive pancakes and he invited you *and*told you to pick the place. You didn't approach him with a yearning for pricey flapjacks and try to manipulate him into paying for them.

And double eff on whether or not his advances were welcome. If he wants a "sure thing" there are plenty of establishments in the NY metropolitan area that cater to that. I'll PM you some numbers to give him if he's interested.

He invited you out, he told you to choose a place...pancakes on him. I'm sure it's worth $20 to spend the brunch hour with you.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 26, 2006)

HUH???? 
Hell no- he invited you to brunch- not for hot steamy sex guaranteed
You are not trash or a street walker and you weren't OBLIGATED to do a damn thing for a stack of pancakes...


I'm the queen of excuse making for my past loves- stop it- you only get hurt in the end by allowing him to treat you that way. He's rude and didn't have your best interest in mind, enough said.


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## Actor4hire (Dec 26, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> or maybe he didn't like the fact that I wasn't (visibly) reciprocating his advances...
> 
> I mean, if a guy feels that he isn't getting anywhere in a date, the he doesn't feel obligated to pay, right?



If this is the case, be glad you got out on the first date. The guy is sounding more & more like a jerk. Even if he thought he would never see you again, he should have paid. That is what a real man would do... 

Still can't get over the fact that he whipped out a wad of money... What a jerk....


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## Still a Skye fan (Dec 26, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> Allright, I have a question, and I need some input.
> 
> SO, if a guy asks you out, the guy is obliged to pay.
> If the guy asked you out, but you pick the restaurant, you go dutch?
> ...



Well, speaking as a guy, were I to invite a lovely lady, I was interested in, out to brunch, lunch or whatever, I wouldn't think twice about paying the check.


Dennis


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## Mini (Dec 26, 2006)

Call me... new-fashioned, but I tend to believe that it should be split evenly on a first date. They're usually just "feelers" anyway.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2006)

Are you saying since he's just deciding on whether or not he's interested that he does not need to follow proper etiquette? So at some point he makes the decision if she's worth it and then says "ok...I'm done with the feeler dates, you are now worth the price of a stack of pancakes."

He invited her to brunch, therefore he pays for brunch.


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## Mini (Dec 26, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> Are you saying since he's just deciding on whether or not he's interested that he does not need to follow proper etiquette? So at some point he makes the decision if she's worth it and then says "ok...I'm done with the feeler dates, you are now worth the price of a stack of pancakes."
> 
> He invited her to brunch, therefore he pays for brunch.



Etiquette, shmetiquette. 

If there's mutual interest, the split costs of a first date won't mean dick in the long run. If not, shit happens. It's not like you were forced to accept his offer.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 26, 2006)

It's not like he was forced to ask her out either
He's a cheap asshole- first impressions and all that


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## Mini (Dec 26, 2006)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> It's not like he was forced to ask her out either
> He's a cheap asshole- first impressions and all that



Y'know, this kills me. I've dated before (not much, but bear with me), and there's never been a problem with splitting costs. Like, I'd get the food, she'd get the movie, drinks would be split fairly even, shared cab costs, etc.. Never been a problem. Never been called a "cheap asshole."

But hey, what do I know. I haven't dated in months.


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## Carrie (Dec 26, 2006)

Mini said:


> Y'know, this kills me. I've dated before (not much, but bear with me), and there's never been a problem with splitting costs. Like, I'd get the food, she'd get the movie, drinks would be split fairly even, shared cab costs, etc.. Never been a problem. Never been called a "cheap asshole."
> 
> But hey, what do I know. I haven't dated in months.



Well, I also tend to think there are probably different expectations of someone in their very early 20's, i.e. a student, vs. a well-established person in his/her 30's. I'm not sure where the line of demarcation is for maybe upping the ante on the behavior, but yeah, for an adult this guy's age I agree that the policy should be whomever asks pays, unless there's an agreement otherwise. I don't necessarily think the guy's a cheap asshole - he may have just spazzed and made a bad call in this situation, despite good intentions - but were I in Ms. J's position here I think I'd be somewhat confused about the whole thing, too. 

Ms. J, I'd say if you had an enjoyable time, he's worth another chance.


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## SoVerySoft (Dec 26, 2006)

Mini, I'm with you, actually.

I have a problem with being on a date and just sitting there while a guy picks up the check. I need to at least offer to share it - and if he insists on paying, that's great. But I don't feel it's an entitlement that my meal will be paid for.

It just feels presumptuous.

I like when a guy tells me upfront that when he's on a date, he picks up the check, but I don't assume it. If he does pay, I'll offer to cook for him, or pay the next one, etc.

Unfortunately, it often then becomes a "who's turn is it now" thing, and it doesn't feel like dating - it feels like friends going out. So there is a down side.

I think I have much more of a tendency to pay my own way when the relationship is unbalanced - meaning, I don't have romantic feelings (even if he does).

Also, I tend to date men who are very broke. In these situations I pick up the tab at least half the time, and probably more.

Bottom line - I feel really weird just sitting there and not offering to pay. Even if it's just the tip (as a last resort).

edited to add: I have been put off by guys who get really anal about splitting a bill. Be a sport, don't nickel and dime me.


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## Carrie (Dec 26, 2006)

I always offer, SVS, I pull out my wallet and such. But yep, truthfully, if he did the asking and doesn't admonish me to put away my wallet, I'm taken aback, and that goes both ways (meaning if I did the asking, I expect to treat).


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## Krissy12 (Dec 26, 2006)

I, too, had a similar experience lately. At the end of the date, the bill came and he pulled out his wallet but gave me a "look". So, I asked him if he would like me to pay my share and he said, "Well, that would be nice." So, I gave him what I had on me. Which wasn't half, but I truly didn't have any money and I assumed he was paying since it was a first date and I'd never had anyone NOT pay before. I was a little miffed since he had asked me, but then left all the planning to me and had me meet him at the theater.

I would, ideally, like for someone to ask me out, actually plan the date, pick me up and pay. Then on any subsequent dates, we could go dutch or I would pay. It seems like lately that guys are taking the woo out of the wooing.


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## Mini (Dec 26, 2006)

Krissy12 said:


> I would, ideally, like for someone to ask me out, actually plan the date, pick me up and pay. Then on any subsequent dates, we could go dutch or I would pay. It seems like lately that guys are taking the woo out of the wooing.



You want equal rights, you live with the consequences.


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## ripley (Dec 27, 2006)

I don't think it has anything to do with equal rights. If you ask someone if you can take them out, *you* take them out, you don't take them halfway. If you don't have a lot of money that's fine...pick something inexpensive or free to do...don't act all like the big shot and say "You choose the restaurant, my dear" then act decidedly non-magnanimous when the check comes.

If I asked someone out, I'd pay. I think it's rude to ask someone out and not foot the bill...you initiated it, you pay for it. And besides all of that...fair or not, divvying up a check at the end of a first date seems tacky and very unromantic.


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## supersoup (Dec 27, 2006)

ripley said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with equal rights. If you ask someone if you can take them out, *you* take them out, you don't take them halfway. If you don't have a lot of money that's fine...pick something inexpensive or free to do...don't act all like the big shot and say "You choose the restaurant, my dear" then act decidedly non-magnanimous when the check comes.
> 
> If I asked someone out, I'd pay. I think it's rude to ask someone out and not foot the bill...you initiated it, you pay for it. And besides all of that...fair or not, divvying up a check at the end of a first date seems tacky and very unromantic.



i completely agree.

if i ask you out, i'm paying and planning, and if you ask me out, you should foot the bill and plan it out.


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## Jack Skellington (Dec 27, 2006)

I ain't paying for nothing. If for some unfathomable reason someone wishes to endure the displeasure of my company, they have to earn it.

And I want flowers too, dammit!


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 27, 2006)

What does equal rights have to do with simple manners? Not to mention the death of courtshp that Krissie pointed out.

Just because women believe they should have equal schooling and work opportunities, what does that have to do with dating rituals or with the rudeness of this man asking Miss J. out on a date and then pulling out a wad of money to pay for his own food, when the only reason she was there is because he'd invited her?

Besides, the equal rights are manifested in the fact that each woman on this thread has clearly said that if she were doing the inviting, she would plan the date and pay for it. Nobody has said "men should always pay" but they have said in this case that he should have.


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## swordchick (Dec 27, 2006)

if I'm asked out and definitely not, if it is the first date. I've not asked anyone out on a date. I'm old-fashioned. No man has made me pay for a meal-date or no date. But if it is a person that I'm dating, I would pay for some of the dates.

By the way, I completely agree with you, clynn.


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## Mini (Dec 27, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> What does equal rights have to do with simple manners? Not to mention the death of courtshp that Krissie pointed out.
> 
> Just because women believe they should have equal schooling and work opportunities, what does that have to do with dating rituals or with the rudeness of this man asking Miss J. out on a date and then pulling out a wad of money to pay for his own food, when the only reason she was there is because he'd invited her?
> 
> Besides, the equal rights are manifested in the fact that each woman on this thread has clearly said that if she were doing the inviting, she would plan the date and pay for it. Nobody has said "men should always pay" but they have said in this case that he should have.



The "equal right" comment was a jab at "taking the woo out of wooing." Nothing more, nothing less. 

Keep up with the condescending attitude, though, and next time I'm going to steal my date's wallet. Score one for chivalry.


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## Carrie (Dec 27, 2006)

Mini said:


> Keep up with the condescending attitude, though, and next time I'm going to steal my date's wallet.



On that note, I'd like mine back, please, and soon.


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## bigsexy920 (Dec 27, 2006)

I guess I'm a bitch or something. If a guy asks me out he pays. If I suggest going out to hang out we split. I would never ask a guy out that I was interested in dating, at least not till a relationship has been established. 

I always take enough money to pay for myself when I go out just in case. I spent YEARS paying for dates and Im sorry I just refuse to do it anymore. 

Going out with guy friends is totally different though.


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## This1Yankee (Dec 27, 2006)

Mini - funny funny funny.

I say at the very least, it needs to be split the way Mini said. To me, the money situation is dependent on how interested you are in one another. If he offers to pay the whole date, and I accept, there is a strong chance that there is a second date to follow. I consider it a subtle sign of whether there is mutual attraction/interest and of how well the date is going.

This situation could be worse. I had gone on a first date with a guy, fooled around with him, then he called me to say that he got a new job and that we should go out to celebrate. I was stoked. Then when I go to his house, he casually mentions how broke he is, so I reply "Well, if I am buying, then we are going to McDonald's...because I have less money than you". He ends of asking to go to this Cuban restaurant, so I figure, that he's paying. Well, we take MY car (I didn't offer, he just asked where it was and started walking towards it), get to the shit hole restaurant, eat, then he looks at me and says "I told you I was broke". WTF. I paid. And when I drove his ass home, I didn't even STOP THE CAR, I let him out in front of his apartment and never got out of first gear   

SO he invited me, he picked the place, made me drive, and then expected me to foot the bill. THAT is unacceptable. Should have made him walk, it was only a few blocks away...


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## SamanthaNY (Dec 27, 2006)

Your not a bitch, Berna. 

It's just rude to ask someone on a _date_, and then expect them to pay their own way. It's like inviting people to a party and just expecting (not asking) them to bring their own drinks and snacks. 

And this has little to do with genders - if a woman asks a man out on a date, the same rules apply. Yes, it's nice of the recipient to offer to share the costs - but the reasonable and honorable person turns that offer down.


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## moonvine (Dec 27, 2006)

Carrie said:


> I always offer, SVS, I pull out my wallet and such. But yep, truthfully, if he did the asking and doesn't admonish me to put away my wallet, I'm taken aback, and that goes both ways (meaning if I did the asking, I expect to treat).




I agree with Carrie. I will pull out my wallet, but if he takes me up on it, another date is unlikely.

Not that I've had a date in 2 years, or anything.


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## Emma (Dec 27, 2006)

I always make sure I've got enough money to pay AND I always offer. They don't normally let me though, but I'm always like "well, if you pay for the meal you've gotta at least let me buy the drinks" then I feel fair.


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## moonvine (Dec 27, 2006)

Mini said:


> You want equal rights, you live with the consequences.



Not that we like, actually *have* them or anything.

But as others have said, it is simple politeness that the one who does the asking (not always the man) pays.

I had a guy ask me to the dollar movie once and go up to the counter and say "I'd like one ticket." Fortunately I had my laundry quarters so I could actually pay, but since I don't as a rule carry cash, it could have been a bad thing.

He was a jerk in so many ways. But cute, of course. I don't think we went out again after that time.


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## VanilaGorila (Dec 27, 2006)

First date or third, who cares. The first date shouldn't even be dinner. A smart man (and woman) would make a date for drinks sometime after 9pm so both of you can eat at your leisure, then get down to business of getting to know each other. This way there is no question and uncomfortable situations. 

I'm a true feminist. Women want equality, lets go all the way. Equal everything including the check. To say that a woman's time is somehow more valuable than mine is rediculous.

Chivalry? Being a Gentleman? Blah! This is (nearly) 2007 folks. Only a shmuck would fall for a woman's "free dinner" games... Only to say good night, then call her "sure thing" later on after you've dropped her off at 11.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 27, 2006)

Thanks for the advice, y'all.

He did try to get frisky and went for a kiss at the end of the date, but I quickly turned my head, so he got my cheek instead.

I figure that it was a fair trade. I expected to be treated, but I got to pay half instead..
He expected a kiss, he got a cheek instead.

And for the guys reading this thread. I guess it pays to be a gentleman.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 27, 2006)

Mini said:


> Y'know, this kills me. I've dated before (not much, but bear with me), and there's never been a problem with splitting costs. *Like, I'd get the food, she'd get the movie, drinks would be split fairly even, shared cab costs, etc.. Never been a problem. *Never been called a "cheap asshole."
> 
> But hey, what do I know. I haven't dated in months.



You know, I actually have no problem with this in my world either. I have on a first date paid for the movie, AFTER HE PAID FOR DINNER that he invited me to. 
He initiated the date, he should be first to initiate "taking turns" on the paying. His behavior seems tacky and ill-mannered to me.
It all just left a bad taste in my mouth and somehow seemed, by what she described, that he saw the opportunity to roll over on her and take advantage of the situation when she pulled out her wallet- just how I see it. 
I have taken my own exes out on many occasions- nothing wrong with that. However, if I asked him out first, I should be willing to pay for his meal.
Also, I noticed another post here about the first date should be more simple- like along the lines of a cup of coffee or drinks for the "feeling out" stage you mentioned earlier. I agree with that- if you don't want to spend a wad of cash on someone you don't really know, then choose a less expensive activity. 
I read some "dating tips" one time and they also recommend the simple cup of coffee thing- mainly because it makes it easier to get out if the date doesn't go well.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 27, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> What does equal rights have to do with simple manners? Not to mention the death of courtshp that Krissie pointed out.
> 
> Just because women believe they should have equal schooling and work opportunities, what does that have to do with dating rituals or with the rudeness of this man asking Miss J. out on a date and then pulling out a wad of money to pay for his own food, when the only reason she was there is because he'd invited her?
> 
> Besides, the equal rights are manifested in the fact that each woman on this thread has clearly said that if she were doing the inviting, she would plan the date and pay for it. Nobody has said "men should always pay" but they have said in this case that he should have.




+1
Yeah, I had that equal rights shit pulled on me- yet I still notice men want me to mother them and take care of them in all the ways women take care of men. Equality, eh? So do your own damn laundry and cook for yourself at night. Enough said.


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## JoyJoy (Dec 27, 2006)

I learned this lesson when I was 15. The guy I liked (but wasn't "officially" dating) asked me if I wanted to go to Arby's with him and a group of kids from church. I was thrilled to agree, and everything was wonderful until he left me standing at the counter with my food on a tray unpaid for while he walked off with his tray of food. Thankfully, my older brother was there to save the day for me by not only paying for my food, but also pulling the guy aside and "explaining" his error. 

Now I find that it's just easier to ask up front if he is treating, or if we're going dutch. Usually if a guy is trying to impress me, he'll treat, but I also find it perfetcly fine to go dutch in the beginning stages of any relationship. If it develops into more, then I'd expect him to treat me according to how he feels about me. It's a nice test to see how he values me....and that, too is made clear to the guy at some point. Some guys have been put off by my straighforward manner, but that's for the best, since I'm like this in other areas, as well. I grew tired of the dating guessing games years ago, and I'm too old to waste that kind of time now.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 27, 2006)

Amen Joy!
:bow: :bow:


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 27, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I had a guy ask me to the dollar movie once and go up to the counter and say "I'd like one ticket." Fortunately I had my laundry quarters so I could actually pay, but since I don't as a rule carry cash, it could have been a bad thing.
> 
> He was a jerk in so many ways. But cute, of course. I don't think we went out again after that time.



Seriously, somebody asks you out to the dollar movie, and on top of that doesn't pay your dollar? Probably a good thing you didn't go out with him again.

I'm also on the opposite side of Joy regarding the length of the relationship and me paying. When we first start dating, the man should pay. The more we get to know each other and the more of a couple we are, the more likely I am to expect to absorb the financial burden.


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## Actor4hire (Dec 27, 2006)

So here is the real question. If he had paid the full amount, would he be in second date category? 

I am a firm believer that the man (which I am one) pays for pretty much the first 4-5 dates. After that, it could go dutch or maybe even the woman would pick on up. 

But if he had no chance at a second date, you were better off not owing him a darn thing. Including a good night kiss.... 

Have you heard from him?


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## SamanthaNY (Dec 27, 2006)

JoyJoy said:


> The guy I liked (but wasn't "officially" dating) asked me if I wanted to go to Arby's with him and a group of kids from church..


Interesting... because I woudn't find that scenario to be a 'date' at all. In a "hey we're all going to...." situation like that, I consider it almost always byo$.

As with most things, communication is key.


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## Brenda (Dec 28, 2006)

Wow, harsh view of women.

""First date or third, who cares. The first date shouldn't even be dinner. A smart man (and woman) would make a date for drinks sometime after 9pm so both of you can eat at your leisure, then get down to business of getting to know each other. This way there is no question and uncomfortable situations. 

I'm a true feminist. Women want equality, lets go all the way. Equal everything including the check. To say that a woman's time is somehow more valuable than mine is rediculous.

Chivalry? Being a Gentleman? Blah! This is (nearly) 2007 folks. Only a shmuck would fall for a woman's "free dinner" games... Only to say good night, then call her "sure thing" later on after you've dropped her off at 11.""


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## Fuzzy (Dec 28, 2006)

Communication is key.

However, the rules of "1st date" apply. If I initiated the date, I pay everything. If she initiated it, which has yet to happen, I would expect to at least spilt, but I'll haggle!

I've actively been in the dating pool twice. First as poor college student, and then as rich executive. Same rules apply, As I was looking to make lasting impressions that would convince someone that I needed a close companion.

However, for some odd reason, on all accounts, We'd end up in my house with me cooking.


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## JoyJoy (Dec 28, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> Interesting... because I woudn't find that scenario to be a 'date' at all. In a "hey we're all going to...." situation like that, I consider it almost always byo$.
> 
> As with most things, communication is key.


 I was 15, with no real dating experience, and the boy I liked had just asked me to spend time with him. I was giddy, and didn't take time to evaluate whether or not it could be defined as a date, and was naive enough to think that since he asked, he would pay. Also, within our group, it was common for boys to ask girls to attend an outing with the group and consider it a "date". 

I've since learned a great deal about communication.


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## snuggletiger (Dec 28, 2006)

I feel like a dinosaur. I don't ever remembering ever asking a woman to pay for my dinner. There have been times when a lady has wanted to go out and I have told her it would have to be someplace inexpensive because I didn't have that much money on me. I just would feel embarrassed to have the woman pick up the tab.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 28, 2006)

Mini said:


> Call me... new-fashioned, but I tend to believe that it should be split evenly on a first date. They're usually just "feelers" anyway.



Agreed. However, I think this probably IS factored by money/age... If I was single and an old rich person asked me out to an overpriced joint, I don't expect to pay $60 for a meal because the person picked out of my price range. (This is the reason I'm suspicious of my brother's scummy new fling.) 

In the case of Ryan and me, we make close to the same amount of money. I believe the first meal we purchased (pizza from Round Table on the way home from the airport) was split, but he bought the first meal out I think. (I don't quite remember where it was...)


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## elle camino (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> I'm a true feminist. Women want equality, lets go all the way. Equal everything including the check. To say that a woman's time is somehow more valuable than mine is rediculous.
> 
> Chivalry? Being a Gentleman? Blah! This is (nearly) 2007 folks. Only a shmuck would fall for a woman's "free dinner" games... Only to say good night, then call her "sure thing" later on after you've dropped her off at 11.


well luckily, with this attitude towards women, you're probably not going to have to worry about paying for too many dates anytime soon. 


aaaanyways. 

i'm generally of the opinion that the guy calls first, the guy asks first, and the guy pays for the date. i deserve to be courted, damnit. plus it's not like i'll be ordering three lobsters with a cash salad on the side, so really, not a big deal. 
if a guy can't manage to keep at least 50 bucks in his bank account for this kind of thing, he's not likely to be the kind of guy i'm interested in dating, anyways.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 28, 2006)

See, if a man wants to be a gentleman, the woman will want to buy his dinner. It's really a phenomenon. Guy acts like my time and company is worth the cost of dinner, guy gets a lot of nice perks. (Ask my boyfriend, username Ryan, for more details.)

Woman's time more valuable than yours? Not exactly. However, I can walk into a bar and come out with at least three dates on any given night, as can any woman in here. It's doubtful any man can do that. Welcome to the fold, my friend. So, yes, if YOU don't think my company is worth the cost of a glass of wine and a small dish of pasta, there are a number of guys who are probably nicer and better-looking who'll GLADLY buy my time. And in that sense, maybe my time is more valuable than yours. Ain't the after effects of sexism a BITCH? 



VanilaGorila said:


> First date or third, who cares. The first date shouldn't even be dinner. A smart man (and woman) would make a date for drinks sometime after 9pm so both of you can eat at your leisure, then get down to business of getting to know each other. This way there is no question and uncomfortable situations.
> 
> I'm a true feminist. Women want equality, lets go all the way. Equal everything including the check. To say that a woman's time is somehow more valuable than mine is rediculous.
> 
> Chivalry? Being a Gentleman? Blah! This is (nearly) 2007 folks. Only a shmuck would fall for a woman's "free dinner" games... Only to say good night, then call her "sure thing" later on after you've dropped her off at 11.


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## elle camino (Dec 28, 2006)

also there's that part where he said he was a true feminist.


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## SamanthaNY (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> is rediculous.



I'm gonna guess that you have a lot of DEEP PASSIONS.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 28, 2006)

elle camino said:


> well luckily, with this attitude towards women, you're probably not going to have to worry about paying for too many dates anytime soon.
> 
> 
> aaaanyways.
> ...



She comes up with a gem like this.

I especially like the part about him not worrying about having to pay for too many dates anytime soon. hee!!


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## VanilaGorila (Dec 28, 2006)

Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts? 
Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution? 
Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Oh, excuse me, more "ass than a toilet seat." I can only imagine the quality of woman we're talking about given your nasty attitude towards women. Oh wait, it's in a Heineken commercial? Then it's certainly true, no doubt about it. It is an indisputable fact that if something appears in a beer commercial, it is accurate. I'm glad to know that Clydesdales really do play football.

There are even some of us who think of sex as "shared intimacy with men" rather than "putting out."

And I imagine your "girlfriends" were busy scamming drinks off other "drips" because you are too cheap or too much of a feminist to buy them a drink out of your own pocket? Or more to the point, you sat there and laughed while other men bought your girlfriends drinks? So you thought it was funny that a woman you chose to date would hustle drinks. Huh. I take that to mean it's not just the women who are out to get everything for free, you can include yourself in that equation.


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## moonvine (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Your post isn't worth the time it would take to generate an angry response.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. *Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! * Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Wow, you can sure tell a lot about a person by the company they keep. I'm also a firm believer that if a person is always ready to be ganked, they are most likely the very one that will gank you.





******You must spread some reputation around before giving it to LoveBHMS again


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## VanilaGorila (Dec 28, 2006)

That sure was funtastic!:wubu:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 28, 2006)

^^^You need to get out more


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## VanilaGorila (Dec 28, 2006)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> ^^^You need to get out more



Your right, I'm gonna call up my girls and get some drinks!


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 28, 2006)

to all Oxnard area "drips" because VG and his "girls" are headed out. Hold onto your wallets guys.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you weren't the inspiration for "An Officer and a Gentleman."


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## bigsexy920 (Dec 28, 2006)

Oh god I'm so old fashion I don't want equal rights. I mean if having equal rights means a man wont take me out and open doors and pick me up at my house and well treat me like a lady. Than yeah no thanks. I like the more traditional roles of men and women. As for scaming men for free dinners well good lord I can buy my own food. When a man treats me to dinner it shows they are interested in me and they are willing to go out in a limb to see where things will go. 

I can't recall ever saying yeah I guess Ill go out for the free meal.. I've always had a real interest in getting to know a man if Ive accepted their invitation out. 

Wow Im just really shocked at how this thread has turned out .... I think I need to really re think my dating skills.


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## VanilaGorila (Dec 28, 2006)

bigsexy920 said:


> Oh god I'm so old fashion I don't want equal rights. I mean if having equal rights means a man wont take me out and open doors and pick me up at my house and well treat me like a lady. Than yeah no thanks. I like the more traditional roles of men and women. As for scaming men for free dinners well good lord I can buy my own food. When a man treats me to dinner it shows they are interested in me and they are willing to go out in a limb to see where things will go.
> 
> I can't recall ever saying yeah I guess Ill go out for the free meal.. I've always had a real interest in getting to know a man if Ive accepted their invitation out.
> 
> Wow Im just really shocked at how this thread has turned out .... I think I need to really re think my dating skills.



Honey, your doing nothing wrong. I just love a good debate, and to see who is ultra-sensitive by rattling some cages. Looks like I succeeded.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Dec 28, 2006)

^^^You remind me of the teens in yahoo- and you look much older than them in your pic...... wow


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## Sandie S-R (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Angry no. Anger suggests that we care enough about you to actually have feelings about what you post here. However, since you are a newbie to the boards, I would imagine you came here looking for ladies. And if you think the posts in this thread are going to help you score some "ass" (as you put it), you're sadly mistaken. Your posts make it very clear that you have absolutely no respect for women whatsoever. Why on earth would any classy, self respecting women (like the ones who post here) have anything at all to do with you?

You are treading on thin ice here. My suggestion: Take your sexist, condescending attitude somewhere else. It is not appreciated in the least.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm not offended. I'm not a moocher. And if you're getting ass, you either have a completely different personality from what you present on here, or you're bullshitting.

I've never personally used a guy for a drink unless I was interested in talking to him and he insisted, which has happened no more than 15 times in my little life. I don't think most women are out to get something for free, but I bet I know more true gold diggers than you. Those sorts are in the minority.

I don't gauge whether or not I have sex on how much he spends.

The truth about women: We are really easily impressed, to the point of being silly. Ever seen those Lindt truffles at the checkout stand in a bookstore for .33 each? Buy three for "an after dinner treat" for a woman and see if she doesn't get ridiculously excited. Pick up/make a cheap meal just so you can "enjoy the evening." It impresses the hell out of me when my boyfriend picks up six tamales to cut me a break. More importantly, I know he does these things not because he expects a blow job, but because he's a good guy and wants to make my life more pleasant. If you believe in the case of buying a woman dinner that you're "owed" anything, you're wrong. 

Example: I bought my boyfriend dinner the other night, not because I expected anything, but because I like doing nice things for him. I'd rather buy dinner for him than let some other guy buy me dinner. It's the same motivation you might experience to buy a woman's dinner: She's really nice and you'd rather buy dinner for her because she's a nice person and deserves a treat, even though there's probably a worse woman who'd go dutch with you.

BTW, if this isn't making you mad, why do you assume it's making me mad?




VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...


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## Blackjack (Dec 28, 2006)

Wow, and here I thought I needed to lend a hand in verbally raping VG. Seems you ladies have it all set, and have covered everything I was gonna say.

Sleazebag, sexist, etc. etc.


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## missaf (Dec 28, 2006)

If I invite, I pay; and that includes for everything from cigars to a cruise. If he offers to help pay, I'll accept it, but I don't ask, and I don't require.


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## SamanthaNY (Dec 28, 2006)

Are we sure this isn't one of those same diaper-stains from a couple of weeks ago? The join-date (as well as the attititude) is suggestive of that. 



VanilaGorila said:


> Honey, your doing nothing wrong. I just love a good debate, and to see who is ultra-sensitive by rattling some cages. Looks like I succeeded.


*VanilaGorila 
Biography:
Never married and I live alone.*







Taking potshots and saying purposely outrageous things just to elicit an angry response isn't 'debate', it's shit-stirring. We know it. You know it. 

We've had other shit-stirring "cage-rattlers" (that is a nicer term, I suppose) here. Thankfully they never last long.


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## Paul Fannin (Dec 28, 2006)

No matter who pays, the man should be PREPARED to pay. Any man worth his salt should consider it an honor and privilege to pay all costs incurred on a date. 

Now tell me, what woman wouldn't want to go out with a man who considered it his honor and privilege to be with her?


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## Sandie S-R (Dec 28, 2006)

Thank you Paul. Said like a true gentleman.


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## missaf (Dec 28, 2006)

That's an awesome way to put it, Paul! I feel so elated and honored to have someone willing to pay when we go out.


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## Wagimawr (Dec 28, 2006)

And even for those of us not as classy as Paul, at least make sure you and your date know who's paying.

We've argued for four pages now about who should pay, but I think we can all agree, sitting there and doing nothing when the bill arrives, like Mrs J's date did, is absolutely the wrong approach.


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## Sandie S-R (Dec 28, 2006)

Dead right on Wagi! We can all avoid a lot of embarrassment and heartache, if we discuss who is going to pay before we go out.


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## Spanky (Dec 28, 2006)

Wagimawr said:


> And even for those of us not as classy as Paul, at least make sure you and your date know who's paying.
> 
> We've argued for four pages now about who should pay, but I think we can all agree, sitting there and doing nothing when the bill arrives, like Mrs J's date did, is absolutely the wrong approach.



As another "dinosaur" I can only relate the similar situation in business in paying for lunch. I got sick of the discomfort figuring out whether you or the customer who invited you or the sales manager etc etc should pay. 

I solved it by clearing it up at first who was paying if I wasn't sure I was paying. If I am sure I am paying, I just say up front (I did it today) when we sit down, that the other person(s) are my guests and the lunch, dinner etc is on me. 

It is like that pink elephant at the table that no one wants to talk about.


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## Paul Fannin (Dec 28, 2006)

I would hasten to add, any woman who does pay makes a man feel pretty big....kinda like when a woman asks me to dance....no greater compliment the way I see....


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## Spanky (Dec 28, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> See, if a man wants to be a gentleman, the woman will want to buy his dinner. It's really a phenomenon. Guy acts like my time and company is worth the cost of dinner, guy gets a lot of nice perks. (Ask my boyfriend, username Ryan, for more details.)
> 
> Woman's time more valuable than yours? Not exactly. However, I can walk into a bar and come out with at least three dates on any given night, as can any woman in here. It's doubtful any man can do that. Welcome to the fold, my friend. So, yes, if YOU don't think my company is worth the cost of a glass of wine and a small dish of pasta, there are a number of guys who are probably nicer and better-looking who'll GLADLY buy my time. And in that sense, maybe my time is more valuable than yours. Ain't the after effects of sexism a BITCH?



Excellent, TSL. A fact of life, blunt, brutal. I love it. Reminds me of a little joke.... <why is everyone running away?>

A little boy walks up to a little girl, pulls down his pants exposing his wee wee and proudly says, "Look at what I got!"

The little girl looks and then pulls up her dress and says, "Yea, but look at what I got....and with one of these, I can have as many of those as I want."


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## Friday (Dec 28, 2006)

Bitter much? Maybe a little therapy could get you a date you didn't have to pay.


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## fatlane (Dec 28, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Is it just me or is everyone imagining the rollicking fun he had when he found out the woman putting out for him was actually a transvestite, then figured, "hey, it's the 21st century, so why not?".

Basically, if you wear a skirt/kilt and no underwear, you're gonna have sex, regardless of gender. If you don't want to necessarily have sex on the table (THERE'S an entendre...), wear pants. Again, regardless of gender.

MAN LAW!


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## elle camino (Dec 28, 2006)

but i don't own any pants, fatlane!
HOW CAN I POSSIBLY HOPE TO STEM THIS TIDE OF CONSTANT TABLE SEX?


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## Spanky (Dec 28, 2006)

elle camino said:


> but i don't own any pants, fatlane!



Don't you dare wear pants when you fill out a dress like this..... 

Mr. Fatlane may need to make an exception.


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## fatlane (Dec 28, 2006)

You're screwed, Elle, and I mean that in a very professional and respectful way.


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## Mini (Dec 29, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Knock knock

Who's there?

Not vagina!

Seriously, I'd tell you to get fucked, but I think it's safer if your kind doesn't multiply.


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## elle camino (Dec 29, 2006)

posting to confirm awesome new signature.


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## Blackjack (Dec 29, 2006)

elle camino said:


> posting to confirm awesome new signature.



I cleaned up my keyboard from the soup-spraying incident, and then you go and do this.

It's like my compy can't get a break.


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## Wagimawr (Dec 29, 2006)

Blackjack said:


> I cleaned up my keyboard from the soup-spraying incident, and then you go and do this.
> 
> It's like my compy can't get a break.


I thought it was the monitor.

LIES!


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## love dubh (Dec 29, 2006)

Hey! WHAT A COINCIDENCE! *He's* a true feminist, *I'm* a true feminist. We should totally fuck.

Oh. Wait. I don't fuck disrespectful people. Oopsie. 

And as for the "we women want everything free in this world," it isn't the case with me. And in clarifying my point, I'm sure you'll say I've just got a burr up my cooter, because I'm being a dirty feminist and calling you out on YOUR (possessive) shit because YOU'RE (contraction of "you + are", look it up, dude) being ignorant. 

Like TSL and oh, almost every woman here, has said, it IS nice when you are treated. The operative word here is TREATED. As in, once in a while. Because you do something nice for us doesn't mean we expect it to happen all the time, nor does it mean that we "owe" you something. It's also a commonality that the one who initiates the date pays for it, unless you make an agreement like "if I get the dinner, can you pay for the movie?" Totally reasonable! Any woman who breaks into a fit over that just isn't the type of woman you want anyway, unless you're both rich kids.


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## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

maire dubh said:


> Hey! WHAT A COINCIDENCE! *He's* a true feminist, *I'm* a true feminist. We should totally fuck.
> 
> Oh.
> 
> ...



hahaha your sol miaer dbuh lollorz1111!!!!!11!!!!


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## NYEmtEsq (Dec 29, 2006)

There's always the approach of getting two checks....if the woman's company was truly captivating and there was genuine chemistry, if she gave you exclusivity (and didn't answer the cellphone for some second-shift booty-call who is going to meet up with her after), and if she respected you enough to order reasonably (rather than the lobster and filet mignon dinner with three shots of Johnnie Walker Blue and a bottle of Cristal), then you always have the option of picking up both checks. However, if it quickly becomes clear that you're out with a dinner whore (who hooked up with you solely to try some expensive, trendy restaurant she wouldn't otherwise try), then you take your check and leave her with hers. It actually allows a guy to be a gentleman to a lady who truly deserves it, while reserving the right for a guy to teach a mooch a lesson. (And, ladies, while I'm sure that there are many wonderful women left out there, you have to concede that there are too many who would take undue advantage of a guy's chivalry just for a free meal). More often than not, I've ended up picking up both checks.


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## love dubh (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> hahaha your sol miaer dbuh lollorz1111!!!!!11!!!!



I'm sorry....I couldn't make out your sentence.

TRNASLATION, PLZ!?????>//!!!11

Someone also brought up the age consideration. That's an interesting addition. I haven't had many "dates," but the one I did have, my bf invited me to go and he paid. The next time, *I* invited him out, and I paid. Other times, there has been splits, such as "I'll pay the tab and you get the tip." 

I guess we're not old enough to know about these little social nuances.


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## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

some people are turning this into a big fucking deal.

if i agree to go somewhere, i ALWAYS make sure i have money to cover it all. i wouldn't agree to go somewhere if i couldn't afford it for both of us...i personally feel that if you ask, you should pay, but at the end of the night, i really don't give a shit. if i'm asked, and he shows me an awesome time, most likely i'm going to insist i pay to thank him, and i'm just as likely to do the same if i've had a shitty time, just so i can get out of there. he may end up paying, it just doesn't matter to me. at the end of the day, it was a friggin' meal somewhere. i'm fat and got to eat, so i've already won, no matter how the date turns out, or who paid for the damn thing.

the end.


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## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

supersoup said:


> some people are turning this into a big fucking deal.


Makes this sound like a massive swingers' party when you put it like that. :wubu:


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## ripley (Dec 29, 2006)

I love when soupy puts her foot down. 


I feel all funny in my pants now.


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## love dubh (Dec 29, 2006)

Spanky said:


> Excellent, TSL. A fact of life, blunt, brutal. I love it. Reminds me of a little joke.... <why is everyone running away?>
> 
> A little boy walks up to a little girl, pulls down his pants exposing his wee wee and proudly says, "Look at what I got!"
> 
> The little girl looks and then pulls up her dress and says, "Yea, but look at what I got....and with one of these, I can have as many of those as I want."



Reminds me of another joke....

There was a little boy and a little girl in a bathtub having a bath. Suddenly the little girl looked down at the boy. 

"Can I touch it?" she asks.

"No way -- you already broke yours off!"


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## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

ripley said:


> I love when soupy puts her foot down.
> 
> 
> I feel all funny in my pants now.



:wubu: 

tease.


----------



## love dubh (Dec 29, 2006)

ripley said:


> I love when soupy puts her foot down.
> 
> 
> I feel all funny in my pants now.



Invite her out for a little somethinsomethin. And you pay.


----------



## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

ripley said:


> I love when soupy puts her foot down.
> 
> 
> I feel all funny in my pants now.



Me too. Let's put on kilts and skirts and see what winds up on the table.


----------



## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> Makes this sound like a massive swingers' party when you put it like that. :wubu:



what can i say, i know how to start a party.


----------



## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

supersoup said:


> what can i say, i know how to start a party.



Let's get... _pantsless, baybee!_


----------



## love dubh (Dec 29, 2006)

Can someone explain this "DEEP PASSIONS!" thing to me? Or did I just have to be there?

Is this a remnant from that LadyRose character and her homophobia, among other things?


----------



## ripley (Dec 29, 2006)

maire dubh said:


> Can someone explain this "DEEP PASSIONS!" thing to me? Or did I just have to be there?
> 
> Is this a remnant from that LadyRose character and her homophobia, among other things?



Yup. She always misspelled "rediculous."


----------



## love dubh (Dec 29, 2006)

ripley said:


> Yup. She always misspelled "rediculous."



Did she claim to have "deep passions"?  That is the confusing part.

And "rediculous"? E is nowhere near I on the keyboard! Oh...wait...nevermind. She was just dumb.


----------



## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

I once had a date who did something evil and the superhero who caught her made her realize crime doesn't pay. So me, the Boy Scout, got stuck with the bill.


----------



## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> I once had a date who did something evil and the superhero who caught her made her realize crime doesn't pay. So me, the Boy Scout, got stuck with the bill.



you still ate though, right?

that's what's important here my friend.


----------



## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 29, 2006)

You know, I really resent that it is being implied that some women are "dinner whores"

and to follow up with the original situation: He hasn't called...yet.


----------



## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> Let's get... _pantsless, baybee!_



ooooh, so right.


----------



## ripley (Dec 29, 2006)

maire dubh said:


> Did she claim to have "deep passions"?  That is the confusing part.
> 
> And "rediculous"? E is nowhere near I on the keyboard! Oh...wait...nevermind. She was just dumb.



That was her user title...Woman of DEEP PASSIONS. All caps.


----------



## Santaclear (Dec 29, 2006)

I think the lesson is this: S/he who dines with dinosaur is courting grave danger. :bow:


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## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

supersoup said:


> ooooh, so right.



This is where we start the private chatting... then up comes the blown whisper:

/ soupersoup yes more of the dried papaya and please call me edna too


----------



## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> This is where we start the private chatting... then up comes the blown whisper:
> 
> / soupersoup yes more of the dried papaya and please call me edna too



 

psh.


----------



## VanilaGorila (Dec 29, 2006)

missaf said:


> That's an awesome way to put it, Paul! I feel so elated and honored to have someone willing to pay when we go out.



hehe

FYI, I'm not "new" here since some of you seem to think a join date means something. I've subscribed to DIMENSIONS as early as '95 after I had a very nice LTR with a cover model of the original magazine up in Seattle... Anyway, thats ancient history...

Try unplugging your computers for a year and see if you can exist without this forum then get back to me.

But the more things change the more things stay the same...


----------



## ripley (Dec 29, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> hehe
> 
> FYI, I'm not "new" here since some of you seem to think a join date means something. I've subscribed to DIMENSIONS as early as '95 after I had a very nice LTR with a cover model of the original magazine up in Seattle... Anyway, thats ancient history...
> 
> ...



....Vince???!? Is it really you??


----------



## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

shut up dolt, it's a message board, we all have lives off of here...this is something a lot of us do on down time, and even if it isn't, reel your ego back in, and let the e-comments roll off your back son. unplug your computer and do us all a favor, eh?

"FYI". i hate when people do that, it always sets me off...

plus i'm drunk.


----------



## Friday (Dec 29, 2006)

Gee, I don't think anyone missed you. I know I'm glad you've removed yourself from my area.


----------



## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

Because everyone who posts on a message board has no life at all, ever.

Guilty.


----------



## missaf (Dec 29, 2006)

NYEMT brought up something interesting -- ordering respectfully when someone else is buying.

I'm always cautious of the prices on a menu if I'm out on a date (and he's paying). When he says "I'm going to have the Filet" and it's $26.00 a plate, I always order something less, never more. I used to use "anything under $10.00" for my reference, but prices are so much higher since the last time I was dating it's more like $14.99 now days.

Sometimes I miss the old menus that didn't have prices for the lady, so the man could make suggestions off his price range


----------



## Krissy12 (Dec 29, 2006)

Wow, I didn't even know that there were menus like that. 
How about the man pays for the dinner, the movie, drinks...and I pay for the hotel room? 

*snicker*


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## ThatFatGirl (Dec 29, 2006)

Throughout my entire dating life I've always more or less "took turns" on the bill with the people I've dated. If he bought dinner, I'd pay for the movie. If I paid for dinner, I'd let him get cocktails later. This has been the case without exception. My fiance wasn't accustomed to this and still looks rather pained sometimes when I pay.


----------



## NYEmtEsq (Dec 29, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> You know, I really resent that it is being implied that some women are "dinner whores"
> 
> and to follow up with the original situation: He hasn't called...yet.



I'm not implying anything. I am making a declarative statement without any implication: some women are dinner whores, or are otherwise inconsiderate bitches who don't deserve to be treated as ladies. They're not the norm, but they're out there as sure as the sky is blue. Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. 

As far as the genesis for the idea of two checks, I took a woman out in college (when I had a much more limited income) to a trendy restaurant, and my date proceeded to order the most expensive everything on the menu (from appetizer to drink to dessert). Being chivalrous I paid, knowing that I was dipping into the rent money and would have to scramble to replace it. Unfortunately, she never called back, and a friend of mine at college (where I met her) told me that it's her habit to get guys to ask her out so that she can go to trendy places. Ever try to scramble for the rent because you were too chivalrous and paid for your date's overpriced dinner when she knew that you were a little strapped for cash and simply didn't give a shit about you other than what she could get from you? Resent it or not, trust me from experience, there are dinner whores as sure as there are wifebeaters. 

My friend also suggested the 2 checks, and I've used it ever since. The only time I didn't pick up the second check was years later when my date picked up a cellphone call and had a cryptic conversation (which, from experience of having been the guy who has made such calls, it was clear that she was lining up her booty call for afterwards), and then said that she had to get home because she had work the next day (on a Friday, when she worked at a law firm, and hadn't mentioned a thing about it before the phone call). Needless to say, she was upset about it, and I told her that I was upset that she was taking calls in the middle of dinner and lining up booty call plans. When I dropped her off, in an attempt to insult me, she essentially conceded that she had a booty call lined up. I didn't feel guilty in the least, and I would most certainly recommend this to anyone who has been burned in the past.


----------



## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 29, 2006)

See, this is where we get to the original source of the problem.

What is expected and what is anticipated when courting rituals are being taken apart or not followed?

Now, I am sorry to hear that you had a dinner whore situation and it seems that alot of men are burned by it.

However, there are those of us who are quite decent folk who are earnestly trying to make a go at it and meeting people in search of a decent guy to get to know and find companionship.

There is a whole cottage industry (The Rules, rememeber that book?) that say do this or do that, movies, your girlfriends, the message board you frequent with advice as to what works and what to expect.

So, if people aren't "playing" by the same rules and aren't communicating because "you can't call or he should call on Wed. for a Saturday night date", what can one expect but to be upset (The dinner whore will come and get my rent money!) to frustrated ( I can't believe he made me pay!?!?? I know he liked me, and I liked him ,but his lack of gallantry won't push me to call him, but I hope he does, and maybe we can create a better way to communicate).

Ick, just ick. Oh well, on to next suitor, suitable or not. Whatever happens, it is sure to be an adventure.


----------



## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 29, 2006)

missaf said:


> NYEMT brought up something interesting -- ordering respectfully when someone else is buying.
> 
> I'm always cautious of the prices on a menu if I'm out on a date (and he's paying). When he says "I'm going to have the Filet" and it's $26.00 a plate, I always order something less, never more. I used to use "anything under $10.00" for my reference, but prices are so much higher since the last time I was dating it's more like $14.99 now days.
> 
> Sometimes I miss the old menus that didn't have prices for the lady, so the man could make suggestions off his price range



I didn't know that they had different menus. It just might be nice to bring that out again. A wonderful experiment,for sure.


----------



## Jack Skellington (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> Because everyone who posts on a message board has no life at all, ever.
> 
> Guilty.



Preach it. I know I don't


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 29, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> hehe
> 
> FYI, I'm not "new" here since some of you seem to think a join date means something. I've subscribed to DIMENSIONS as early as '95 after I had a very nice LTR with a cover model of the original magazine up in Seattle... Anyway, thats ancient history...
> 
> ...



Awful cocky for someone who's made 22 posts in two days.


----------



## JoyJoy (Dec 29, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> hehe
> 
> FYI, I'm not "new" here since some of you seem to think a join date means something. I've subscribed to DIMENSIONS as early as '95 after I had a very nice LTR with a cover model of the original magazine up in Seattle... Anyway, thats ancient history...
> 
> ...


 Not being new to Dimensions doesn't mean squat; you're new to the forums by your current name. Most of us don't know you by this name and when your way of introducing yourself here is to see whom you can piss off, I'd say you're pretty new...to such things as tact, class, and apparently, a measure of intelligence that would enable you to know when to rein yourself in. 

Perhaps, though, this is your way of "weeding out" to find the caliber of woman you're looking for? If so, lucky her.


----------



## Jane (Dec 29, 2006)

As a rule, I pay. I don't just mean for mine, I pay, I leave the tip. He wants to leave more that's up to him.

He can't handle me paying, he's probably got the wrong impression of me. 

Friends and I go Dutch, or take turns paying. I've raised a child, and can live well on what I now make. Plus, I don't have to worry about assholes concerned about what I order or how much I drink.


----------



## activistfatgirl (Dec 29, 2006)

I love finding threads a million pages full o drama.

In thinking about this question, its all about socio-economics to me. Particularly as I'm interested in dating all/any gender, its not about gender but about finances. The partner with the financial security (however defined) should attempt to pay for more dates, particularly if what's desired to be done is too expensive for the other partner. I LOVE buying dinner when I can, and I do sort of get uncomfortable around men who assume because they're men and its a first date, they have to pay. I feel weird about that. At the same time, a cheapskate isn't going to get anywhere with me because as someone already said, it really is about how someone makes you feel than money. When you don't have a lot, buying it is special. If I buy a meal for a suitor/suitee, it really means something. It says "wow, you're great, so great I'm going to eat ramen this week to pay for this meal. SMITTEN!!!!"

Funny I should type that long paragraph when I basically have a low-grade suga daddy friend that pays for absolutely everything we do because he can and I can't and he doesn't want to sit around the house watching videos, which is what I can afford.

Ms. J...if the bastard hasn't called yet, I'm very sad you couldn't have at least gotten the pancakes on him!


----------



## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Dec 29, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Ms. J...if the bastard hasn't called yet, I'm very sad you couldn't have at least gotten the pancakes on him!



Oh honey, I don't worry about it at all. I've got fierce cheekbones, a great rack, elbow dimples ad nauseum....
:batting: :batting: and I'm humble  

I'm not waiting by the phone...


----------



## out.of.habit (Dec 29, 2006)

Maybe the idea isn't so much equality as it is balance. You care about someone, you try to treat sometimes. Someone treated you before, and you care to continue dating, perhaps you try to treat them _to let them know you feel similarly_, not because you owe them. Is it all symbolic of the feelings people have a hard time putting out there in the beginning? Maybe. Was it Mini that said something about the beginning being a feeling-it-out-phase? That makes sense. You're testing the waters, and everyone invests accordingly (emotionally and financially).


----------



## LoveBHMS (Dec 29, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> I love finding threads a million pages full o drama.
> 
> In thinking about this question, its all about socio-economics to me. Particularly as I'm interested in dating all/any gender, its not about gender but about finances. The partner with the financial security (however defined) should attempt to pay for more dates, particularly if what's desired to be done is too expensive for the other partner. I LOVE buying dinner when I can, and I do sort of get uncomfortable around men who assume because they're men and its a first date, they have to pay. I feel weird about that. At the same time, a cheapskate isn't going to get anywhere with me because as someone already said, it really is about how someone makes you feel than money. When you don't have a lot, buying it is special. If I buy a meal for a suitor/suitee, it really means something. It says "wow, you're great, so great I'm going to eat ramen this week to pay for this meal. SMITTEN!!!!"
> 
> ...



I was living and working in TN for a while, and got to be friends with this lesbian woman. We were hanging out once and I started complaining about something with my then boyfriend. She said "you think you have problems? Try being a lesbian from the south. Do you know what first dates are like, when *both of you have been raised to believe it is your privilege as a lady to be treated.* Really, sometimes you both just sit there looking at that check and you're both thinking "Well, I'm not paying for dinner."


----------



## LillyBBBW (Dec 29, 2006)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



Wow. "more ass than a toilet seat?" That's a lot of big talk my friend. You sound like women scare you to death. They're all out to screw you over so you better screw them first. They'll pull your little panties down and rape away all your hard earned money and make you take out the trash. Nobodys gonna make a monkey out of old 'nila! I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but this post makes you sound like a frightened animal and an unethical one at that. The only painful truth here is the telling revelation of the real person trembling behind these blustery words, something I'm sure you didn't intend. Somewhere out there is the kind of woman that you will WANT to treat like gold because that's what she means to you. In the meantime it's good exercise to sidestep away from the kind of street trash who would fondle drinks out of strange men in a bar. If you continue to exist in an attitude that assumes you can't do any better then you wont. And if you join in partnership with them in their antics then you don't.


----------



## elle camino (Dec 29, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> I was living and working in TN for a while, and got to be friends with this lesbian woman. We were hanging out once and I started complaining about something with my then boyfriend. She said "you think you have problems? Try being a lesbian from the south. Do you know what first dates are like, when *both of you have been raised to believe it is your privilege as a lady to be treated.* Really, sometimes you both just sit there looking at that check and you're both thinking "Well, I'm not paying for dinner."



hah! crazy. i've never thought about what would happen in a southern lesbian dinner situation.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 29, 2006)

...it's considered polite to offer to arm wrestle your date for the check. If she really likes you, she will let you win.


----------



## supersoup (Dec 29, 2006)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> ...it's considered polite to offer to arm wrestle your date for the check. If she really likes you, she will let you win.



that's it. i'm moving to oklahoma.


----------



## LoveBHMS (Dec 29, 2006)

elle camino said:


> hah! crazy. i've never thought about what would happen in a southern lesbian dinner situation.



Huh. Well if you ever plan on:

1. Moving
2. Switching Teams

you need to set aside some time to think about it. Apparently it's quite an issue in the southern lesbian dating scene.

I'll be honest, I'd never thought about it either until then.


----------



## MisticalMisty (Dec 29, 2006)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> ...it's considered polite to offer to arm wrestle your date for the check. If she really likes you, she will let you win.


I so miss Norman..except on Saturdays..lol..then I don't miss it at all.


supersoup said:


> that's it. i'm moving to oklahoma.



Bring it! I live in Oklahoma  We could so hang out!


----------



## saucywench (Dec 29, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> Huh. Well if you ever plan on:
> 
> 1. Moving
> 2. Switching Teams
> ...


Logic would presume that the butch would treat the femme, unless there is a great deal of fluidity in the roles. But what do I know?


----------



## VanilaGorila (Dec 29, 2006)

JoyJoy said:


> Not being new to Dimensions doesn't mean squat; you're new to the forums by your current name. Most of us don't know you by this name and when your way of introducing yourself here is to see whom you can piss off, I'd say you're pretty new...to such things as tact, class, and apparently, a measure of intelligence that would enable you to know when to rein yourself in.
> 
> Perhaps, though, this is your way of "weeding out" to find the caliber of woman you're looking for? If so, lucky her.




Well, not really, its more like weeding out those with thin skin and a closed mind. I have opinions about everything and it seems to shock some. Just read a couple of my blogs on MySpace and you might get an idea of where I'm comming from. Or probably not, but I did accept your invitation there...:batting:


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## SamanthaNY (Dec 29, 2006)

> Well, not really, its more like weeding out those with thin skin and a closed mind.


Here's the flaw in your plan -
The fly in your ointment - 
The monkey in your wrench -

You don't weed _us_ out. We weed _*you *_out.

Some of these mods swing a mean sickle - wear a cup.


----------



## ScreamingChicken (Dec 29, 2006)

When I go out on a date, I ALWAYS expect the woman to pay for the meal because...







the only woman I go out on a date with is my wife of 11 years and she can get to her purse faster than I can get off my ass to get my wallet. It's all coming out of the same checking account anyway.


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## CuteyChubb (Dec 29, 2006)

If the man wants the pleasure of my company for an evening, he better be paying.


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## Mini (Dec 29, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> If the man wants the pleasure of my company for an evening, he better be paying.



You might want to rephrase that.


----------



## fatlane (Dec 29, 2006)

If a man knows he's going to pay and the woman is wearing pants or some other garment to indicate a lack of sexual activiites on the evening's activities list, the man should order on behalf of his date.

"... and _the lady_ shall have the McNugget Happy Meal with a Hi-C."


----------



## Jack Skellington (Dec 29, 2006)

fatlane said:


> "... and _the lady_ shall have the McNugget Happy Meal with a Hi-C."



As long as the Happy Meal comes with a cool toy.


----------



## supersoup (Dec 30, 2006)

fatlane said:


> If a man knows he's going to pay and the woman is wearing pants or some other garment to indicate a lack of sexual activiites on the evening's activities list, the man should order on behalf of his date.
> 
> "... and _the lady_ shall have the McNugget Happy Meal with a Hi-C."



le swooooon.

hi-c.

:wubu:


----------



## ripley (Dec 30, 2006)

fatlane said:


> If a man knows he's going to pay and the woman is wearing pants or some other garment to indicate a lack of sexual activiites on the evening's activities list, the man should order on behalf of his date.
> 
> "... and _the lady_ shall have the McNugget Happy Meal with a Hi-C."



McNuggets and orange Hi-C are actually what I get at McDonalds, lol.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 30, 2006)

ripley said:


> McNuggets and orange Hi-C are actually what I get at McDonalds, lol.



Who bothers with McNuggets since there aren't DARK pieces anymore? :eat2:


----------



## ripley (Dec 30, 2006)

I do! And those little double cheeseburgers for a buck. :eat2:


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 30, 2006)

ripley said:


> I do! And those little double cheeseburgers for a buck. :eat2:



Those ARE good, sans onions.


----------



## ripley (Dec 30, 2006)

WITH onions...and a packet of mayo.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 30, 2006)

ripley said:


> WITH onions...and a packet of mayo.



Ehhh, I'm not a mayo person.


----------



## CuteyChubb (Dec 30, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Ehhh, I'm not a mayo person.



weight gain tip: Eat mayo. BE a mayo person.


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## lemmink (Dec 30, 2006)

Eeeee.

I'd say if it's a first date or something, the guy should offer to pay. Second date, it's dutch. If this is a first date and he asked you out, it would have definitely been polite for him to do it. However, he may have his own reasons for not paying... maybe other girls he's been with have just used him for his money and he's wary. I wouldn't sideline him immediately.

Generally, when I ask a guy out, I pay, because I like them to know exactly who's going to have the say in the relationship from the get-go, and by proving myself financially in control it kind of acts as a warning for Later Issues That May Come Up.


----------



## Friday (Dec 30, 2006)

> ...its more like weeding out those with thin skin and a closed mind.



Well that takes care of you doesn't it. As long as you go into anything expecting the worst, that's what you're going to get and very likely exactly what you deserve.


----------



## mrman1980uk (Dec 30, 2006)

This1Yankee said:


> Mini - funny funny funny.
> 
> I say at the very least, it needs to be split the way Mini said. To me, the money situation is dependent on how interested you are in one another. If he offers to pay the whole date, and I accept, there is a strong chance that there is a second date to follow. I consider it a subtle sign of whether there is mutual attraction/interest and of how well the date is going.
> 
> ...



Never mind who'd have that fellow as a boyfriend - what idiot decided to employ him? Goodness, "leach" isn't the word.

But "he who asks pays" is a good rule indeed


----------



## Risible (Dec 30, 2006)

You know how they say that you pick the person you date, or you pick the people you hang out with? Well, this would be like step one of the picking process. If asking you out for dinner and then expecting you to pay isn't acceptable _in your opinion_, then you don't pick him. In this case, step one is the final step.

There are women who would go take further steps to pick him; it doesn't sound like you're one of them.

I don't see where this is a right/wrong issue. Either _you_ find it acceptable or not.

For the record, I wouldn't pick him. I'm married now, but when I was dating, and I dated a lot, almost without exception my date picked up the evening's tab, no discussion. There were a couple of guys who insisted on splitting the bill, and that wasn't a problem, though I didn't go out with them again for whatever reason.


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## fatlane (Dec 30, 2006)

You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but if you pick your friend's nose, expect to have to do a lot of explaining to repair the relationship.


----------



## Jane (Dec 30, 2006)

fatlane said:


> You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but if you pick your friend's nose, expect to have to do a lot of explaining to repair the relationship.



I just always regard picking your friends nose as a No, No...too much explaining for one lifetime.


----------



## biodieselman (Dec 31, 2006)

I was raised to respect women & to have respect for myself. I always paid for the date. Kids here would call me old fashioned but in my day a 'real man' wouldn't expect a respectable woman to pay. A man was expected to take charge on a date but how can he when he isn't paying. I would not knowingly ask a trampy woman out for a date & I would never treat a respectable woman like a tramp. Men were expected to behave like gentlemen & the women like ladies. My how things have changed. I am rather conservative on moral issues. I wasn't looking just for a 'good time ', I was looking for a good woman. I had been married for 24 years & was shocked how much women had changed after I divorced and started to date again. I was looking for a good woman, I found one, I married her. Dating sucks. Go ahead, call me old fashioned but I'll bet that I'm a happier man.


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## Jane (Dec 31, 2006)

biodieselman said:


> I was raised to respect women & to have respect for myself. I always paid for the date. Kids here would call me old fashioned but in my day a 'real man' wouldn't expect a respectable woman to pay. A man was expected to take charge on a date but how can he when he isn't paying. I would not knowingly ask a trampy woman out for a date & I would never treat a respectable woman like a tramp. Men were expected to behave like gentlemen & the women like ladies. My how things have changed. I am rather conservative on moral issues. I wasn't looking just for a 'good time ', I was looking for a good woman. I had been married for 24 years & was shocked how much women had changed after I divorced and started to date again. I was looking for a good woman, I found one, I married her. Dating sucks. Go ahead, call me old fashioned but I'll bet that I'm a happier man.


And he's probably younger than me...you know, not a respectable woman, a tramp.

It ain't morality. It's just money.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Dec 31, 2006)

biodieselman said:


> I was raised to respect women & to have respect for myself. I always paid for the date. Kids here would call me old fashioned but in my day a 'real man' wouldn't expect a respectable woman to pay. A man was expected to take charge on a date but how can he when he isn't paying. I would not knowingly ask a trampy woman out for a date & I would never treat a respectable woman like a tramp. Men were expected to behave like gentlemen & the women like ladies. My how things have changed. I am rather conservative on moral issues. I wasn't looking just for a 'good time ', I was looking for a good woman. I had been married for 24 years & was shocked how much women had changed after I divorced and started to date again. I was looking for a good woman, I found one, I married her. Dating sucks. Go ahead, call me old fashioned but I'll bet that I'm a happier man.



I don't necessarily equate respect with always buying my dinner. I think it's a really nice thing to do for someone, but in a time when men and women are more equal, in a relationship, it makes more sense to take turns.


----------



## Paul Fannin (Dec 31, 2006)

biodieselman said:


> I was raised to respect women & to have respect for myself. I always paid for the date. Kids here would call me old fashioned but in my day a 'real man' wouldn't expect a respectable woman to pay. A man was expected to take charge on a date but how can he when he isn't paying. I would not knowingly ask a trampy woman out for a date & I would never treat a respectable woman like a tramp. Men were expected to behave like gentlemen & the women like ladies. My how things have changed. I am rather conservative on moral issues. I wasn't looking just for a 'good time ', I was looking for a good woman. I had been married for 24 years & was shocked how much women had changed after I divorced and started to date again. I was looking for a good woman, I found one, I married her. Dating sucks. Go ahead, call me old fashioned but I'll bet that I'm a happier man.



....he's a well respected man about town doing the best thing so conservatively...


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## dragorat (Jan 1, 2007)

*If I invite a lady out for dinner I'm DAMNED sure gonna pay.Hell I've even been invited out a few times & insisted on paying just because I felt it was the right thing to do.VG from the way you posted it seems to me you feel the women OWE you for your "wonderful" company.Buddy they don't owe you shit.As far as chivalry being dead...Only for lunkheads like you.There are still ladies who appreciate a respectable gentleman.Not every woman wants to USE a man to get a free meal & their rocks off!Not every man is a self centered idiot who thinks the world revolves around him.But if the shoe fits......For the ladies of the board....I apologize for you having to put up with morons such as this.*


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## GeorgeNL (Jan 1, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I don't necessarily equate respect with always buying my dinner. I think it's a really nice thing to do for someone, but in a time when men and women are more equal, in a relationship, it makes more sense to take turns.



Indeed. Actually it is a bit the reverse these days, at least over here. Out of respect you share the costs, simply dividing it (yes here in the Netherlands we always pay cash in a restaurant). 
That may sound a bit like a contradiction, but you show that you respect each other as equal. Now, I have no dating experience, it could be different in that situation.


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## panhype (Jan 1, 2007)

Always interesting to see the cultural differences. Paying the restaurant bill on a date would most girls make think that i'm not taking her serious and kinda wanting to buy her attention. In other words there are quite negative associations coming with that. This is the common perception at least in urban places like Berlin. OTOH the German word for "to invite" ("einladen") in that context has a stricter sense, it makes 100% clear that the person who invites (einlädt) will be the one to pay the bill - what is more common amongst real friends (like doing something nice), but not in a dating situation.


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## KnottyOne (Jan 1, 2007)

Personally I always pay full when on dates. Just how I was raised, my father told me never turn down a free meal but always pay for a date. So I do, and I think that is just being a gentleman. Some of my friends say i spoil them because I have no problem picking up a bill no matter what it is. *Shrug* just my thing, I love being giving.


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## missaf (Jan 1, 2007)

Something I want to add is that while I pay when I invite, I refuse to always do the inviting. If he won't invite me out -- it only shows disinterest in my book.


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## Les Toil (Jan 1, 2007)

"Ok, here is the deal. Wether or not you asked or he asked, you chose the place or he did, HE SHOULD HAVE PAID..... Period, end of story.... "

On the first date, yes, but not if she wants to go to some 40.00 a plate restaurant. If she requests that, then that's a clear sign I'm dating a gold digger who'll leave my wallet thin as a leaf within the third date. After that first date, if she calls me up and invites me out to dinner, we are either going dutch or she's picking up the tab. If I invite her out, I'll insist on paying the tab.


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## Les Toil (Jan 1, 2007)

KnottyOne said:


> Personally I always pay full when on dates.



So if a girl called and said, "Let's go to Luigi's for dinner and drinks", you're picking up the tab EVERY time? I'm assuming these women at least OFFER to pay every once in a while.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 1, 2007)

biodieselman said:


> Go ahead, call me old fashioned but I'll bet that I'm a happier man.



Happier than what? Or whom? And why? I'm a little confused by your last couple of statements.


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## KnottyOne (Jan 1, 2007)

Les Toil said:


> So if a girl called and said, "Let's go to Luigi's for dinner and drinks", you're picking up the tab EVERY time? I'm assuming these women at least OFFER to pay every once in a while.




90, 95% of the time I will, I mean as long as it's within reason. I mean if they start to take advantage of it then yea, I stop, but for the most part I have no time picking up the tab. I mean, I dont like to spend money on myself, so might as well have it go to somethin fun.


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## love dubh (Jan 2, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> Happier than what? Or whom? And why? I'm a little confused by your last couple of statements.



Happier, apparently, than the men who date "harlots", or the men who are so "weak" as to let their dates split the tab with them?


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 2, 2007)

maire dubh said:


> Happier, apparently, than the men who date "harlots", or the men who are so "weak" as to let their dates split the tab with them?



I'm trying hard not to read it that way but yeah, it kind of read like that to me. Did you pick up on that, too?


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## Risible (Jan 2, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> Happier than what? Or whom? And why? I'm a little confused by your last couple of statements.



I'm going to field your questions for my man; he rarely strays out of Hyde Park to post. I can't say why he posted in this thread. 

What he meant by old fashioned is that he believes, and was raised to believe (as I do and as I was) that being married is a better state than being single. Like or leave it, that's his opinion. As for happier, he meant happier than when _he_ was single and dating. He was shocked at how aggressive women were towards him in the dating scene.

No point in looking under rocks and poking into dark corners looking for dirt on Bio when it comes to women; he likes and respects women unlike another poster in this thread.


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## This1Yankee (Jan 2, 2007)

KnottyOne said:


> Personally I always pay full when on dates. Just how I was raised, my father told me never turn down a free meal but always pay for a date. So I do, and I think that is just being a gentleman. Some of my friends say i spoil them because I have no problem picking up a bill no matter what it is. *Shrug* just my thing, I love being giving.



"You must spread rep before giving it to KnottyOne again"


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 3, 2007)

Risible said:


> As for happier, he meant happier than when _he_ was single and dating.



Ah. I was hoping it was something like that, but it "read" like he was saying he was happier than guys dating women for whom dating was a joint, equal venture.



> No point in looking under rocks and poking into dark corners looking for dirt on Bio when it comes to women; he likes and respects women unlike another poster in this thread.



I wasn't looking under rocks. I was asking a question. I'm not sure why you feel the need to compare him to someone else, and I can't think who it is you're referring to when accusing another poster of not liking and respecting women. I think that's something of an unfair accusation and bordering on a personal judgment that we're not really in a position to make.


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## fatkid420 (Jan 3, 2007)

I made the mistake of being way to nice when it came to dates and paying for things. 

I had one girlfriend who I used to see five nights a week on average, I would always pay the bills for anything we did, because it made her happy and I thought it was the right thing to do. Money does buy happyness but it could be fake.

Now when I date I tell any girl who I am interested in that she needs to show me she is worth MY TIME. If she puts forth a little effort, maybe offers to take me out to lunch, I will take it as a sign of true intrest rather then a fake. Hope that helps.

in your situtation tho I would have expected the gentlemen to pay the bill no questions asked.


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## rainyday (Jan 3, 2007)

Risible said:


> No point in looking under rocks and poking into dark corners looking for dirt on Bio when it comes to women; he likes and respects women unlike another poster in this thread.





Miss Vickie said:


> I'm not sure why you feel the need to compare him to someone else, and I can't think who it is you're referring to when accusing another poster of not liking and respecting women. I think that's something of an unfair accusation and bordering on a personal judgment that we're not really in a position to make.



Vick, I think she was referring to VanillaGuerrilla and the accusations earlier in the thread about him lacking respect for women. That's how I read it at least.


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## VanilaGorila (Jan 3, 2007)

rainyday said:


> Vick, I think she was referring to VanillaGuerrilla and the accusations earlier in the thread about him lacking respect for women. That's how I read it at least.



I am uterly amazed that my earlier posts, for which I received a "naughty point" off of whatever kind of point system seems to be going on here, I'm labeled as someone who has no respect for women? No, I have no respect for gold diggers, freeloaders and dinner whores. If your neither, you have all my respect.
:bow:


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## Jane (Jan 3, 2007)

VG, I have a feeling that you must be REALLY FOND of your hand.


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## Jack Skellington (Jan 3, 2007)

fatlane said:


> but if you pick your friend's nose, expect to have to do a lot of explaining to repair the relationship.



Not really. Just wait until they are sleeping.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 3, 2007)

VanilaGorila said:


> Judging from the responses to my post, alot of women here were offended. How does it go, the truth hurts?
> Its no secret most women will try and get away with free everything as often as they can, whenever they can. Don't deny it, its true. Lord knows my own girlfriends used to drink for free in clubs by stiffing other drips out of their money in the hopes of some type of "recognition". And we both enjoyed the fact WE weren't spending money! Isn't there a Heineken commercial like that? Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...



This post clearly says *most* women. It does not say "some women are gold diggers" it refers to *most* women, up to and including your own girlfriends.

Besides, while you claim to have no respect for women who behave this way, this post says that you tend to sit there laughing while *your dates* hustle drinks from unsuspecting "drips." So one can only conclude that you date women for whom you have no respect, as you obviously applaud this behaviour.


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## Jane (Jan 3, 2007)

Jack Skellington said:


> Not really. Just wait until they are sleeping.



Note to self: Don't sleep when Jack's around. No, really, don't.


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## fatlane (Jan 3, 2007)

VanilaGorila said:


> I am uterly amazed that my earlier posts, for which I received a "naughty point" off of whatever kind of point system seems to be going on here, I'm labeled as someone who has no respect for women? No, I have no respect for gold diggers, freeloaders and dinner whores. If your neither, you have all my respect.
> :bow:



So if the woman's a just-regular-whore, you're all cool with that. Just making sure I know where you're coming from, my man.


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## rainyday (Jan 4, 2007)

rainyday said:


> Vick, I think she was referring to VanillaGuerrilla and the accusations earlier in the thread about him lacking respect for women. That's how I read it at least.





VanilaGorila said:


> I am uterly amazed that my earlier posts, for which I received a "naughty point" off of whatever kind of point system seems to be going on here, I'm labeled as someone who has no respect for women? No, I have no respect for gold diggers, freeloaders and dinner whores. If your neither, you have all my respect.
> :bow:



My comment was referencing what others had said previously in the thread, not my own words. However, from your posts--especially the one BHMS quoted above--I would agree that what you write does make it sound as if you don't have much regard for women. 

Apologies for misspelling your name in my post earlier today.


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## sean7 (Jan 4, 2007)

First date, both parties can arrange to make the food (like a picnic), and share with each other. That way, there isn't any misunderstanding with regards to paying. Aren't dates supposed to be more about interaction?

Good ole' wholesome fun. The dirty sex can be arranged later.


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## itsfine (Jan 4, 2007)

i dont expect anything for free.

but when they pay for the date, I definately pay them back later!:kiss2:


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## Santaclear (Jan 4, 2007)

VanilaGorila said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think thats funny and pathetic at the same time. I don't fall for that crap and I get more ass than a toilet seat.
> And if that is how a woman decides wether to put out or not, well, isn't that prostitution?
> Guess thats the reason its the oldest profession in the world.
> OK, I'm ready for the angry responses...





VanilaGorila said:


> I am uterly amazed that my earlier posts, for which I received a "naughty point" off of whatever kind of point system seems to be going on here, I'm labeled as someone who has no respect for women? No, I have no respect for gold diggers, freeloaders and dinner whores. If your neither, you have all my respect.
> :bow:



And you're amazed? A klassy guy like you who says he "gets more ass than a toilet seat?" Bleh.


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## SleepyNow (Jan 4, 2007)

Hmm. I am clearly even more different than I thought I was. :B

I never expect a guy to pay for dinner, no matter who asked. I always offer to pay my half, and it's not just a gesture for show--I really want to pay for my half of the meal. Perhaps it's in the way that I date (well dated, now that I've settled on one guy) usually the date is the first real time I've spent with the person. I mean, I go dutch with friends ALL the time, and to then expect a basic stranger to pay for me throws my head for a loop. Maybe if I accepted a date from a friend--because then him paying would signify a departure of "friend" activites. Or something. I'm really surprised so many people expect him to pay for the first date if he asks. Apparently I've been running around totally ignorant of some girl rule book somewhere. 

That being said, I actually agree with VanilaGorila that dinner is an awful first choice for a date (this may be an age thing though). Dinner is very long and involved and if you find out half way through you don't like the guy as much as you thought you would it can be torture. Drinks is breezy and casual. If you don't like him--only have one drink and then head for the door. If you like him a lot drinks can turn into coffee or a late dinner. It's more versatile.

Again--that may have to do more with how I choose to date (many times just guys I met out--sporting events, bars, parties, what have you) and age. If you're a little older, or not into the bar scene, or prefer dating people you've gotten to know very well (internet dating seems to lend to this) it may be a whole different ball of wax.

On the other hand, I've actually never had a guy not insist that he pay. It makes me feel a bit awkward, but it's also nice that he wants to impress you. Kind of sweet.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 4, 2007)

rainyday said:


> Vick, I think she was referring to VanillaGuerrilla and the accusations earlier in the thread about him lacking respect for women. That's how I read it at least.



Thanks, babe. I'd skimmed his posts but now that they've been pointed out to me (that and a nice PM from Risible -- thanks, and I know I owe you a response), I can see what it was she meant.

And ... um... ew. Kind of made me wish I hadn't gone back and read them more carefully. I was initially put off by the spelling errors and, well, I wish I'd followed my initial gut reaction and let them be, because they paled in reaction to the misogynistic statements made by this guy.

"More ass than a toilet seat"?? Wow, what a classy, classy way of referring to an act of passion and fun. It really smacks of total respect for women. Not.


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## rainyday (Jan 4, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> "More ass than a toilet seat"?? Wow, what a classy, classy way of referring to an act of passion and fun. It really smacks of total respect for women. Not.



Ick. I missed that one. Have to agree with Santa's "Bleh."


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## fatlane (Jan 4, 2007)

Just by way of comparison, I get more ass than a donkey wholesaler. And more mule, too. Not as much onager. The onager market has fallen off recently.


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## Mini (Jan 4, 2007)

fatlane said:


> Just by way of comparison, I get more ass than a donkey wholesaler. And more mule, too. Not as much onager. The onager market has fallen off recently.



Oh yeah? Well, I get more pussy than the DNC.


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## fatlane (Jan 4, 2007)

I get more boobs than the RNC.


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## Santaclear (Jan 4, 2007)

I receive more tail than a stegosaurus. 

View attachment Stegosaurus dating pic.jpg


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Jan 4, 2007)

Update:
He (The Cheapster FA, as my housemates have dubbed him) is still pursuing. I'll give him a chance to redeem himself. However, I will insist on paying my part on our upcoming date this weekend...as soon as I'm done with my other admirer. luckily, he leaves town tomorrow.:batting: :batting:


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## snuggletiger (Jan 4, 2007)

What does the Cheapster do? Maybe the cheapster doesn't make much money? Maybe in some shallow way the cheapster is trying to be an equal rights person. Just a lot of mysteries.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Jan 4, 2007)

Trust me Snuggle, he can afford the fancy pancakes.


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## snuggletiger (Jan 4, 2007)

Well then I can't use the line he's being thrifty and watching his pennies since he can afford the fancy pancakes. Then maybe he's just cheap by nature. Maybe there's a genetic cheap gene. He'd be better off doing a picnic in the park.


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## Jane (Jan 4, 2007)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> Update:
> He (The Cheapster FA, as my housemates have dubbed him) is still pursuing. I'll give him a chance to redeem himself. However, I will insist on paying my part on our upcoming date this weekend...as soon as I'm done with my other admirer. luckily, he leaves town tomorrow.:batting: :batting:



I'd start off the evening telling him since you paid last time, he's paying this time.


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## fatlane (Jan 4, 2007)

Maybe his wife keeps a sharp eye on the credit card accounts and doesn't give him much spending money...


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## swordchick (Jan 4, 2007)

fatlane said:


> Maybe his wife keeps a sharp eye on the credit card accounts and doesn't give him much spending money...


 
Hey, that is possible. 

I still contend that is rude to ask someone out on date and not pay for your part as well.


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## fatlane (Jan 4, 2007)

Oh yeah, no question. Rude as hell.

Unless you're a "kept person".


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## snuggletiger (Jan 4, 2007)

fatlane said:


> Maybe his wife keeps a sharp eye on the credit card accounts and doesn't give him much spending money...



Gotta rep you for that, I never even thought of that. HE could be a cheater.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Jan 4, 2007)

:doh: :doh: :doh: 
possible
:doh: :doh: :doh: 
a cheater!
:doh: :doh: :doh: 

eh, oh well...


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## supersoup (Jan 4, 2007)

fatlane said:


> Maybe his wife keeps a sharp eye on the credit card accounts and doesn't give him much spending money...



i know i wasn't going to say it!!!


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 4, 2007)

I could be wrong, but here's why.

Men that are cheating know they have very little to offer. They can't be your boyfriend or future husband. You have no Valentine's Day, no New Year's Eve, and you're not his date to the company Christmas Party.

Men that are cheaters typically treat you very well, as they have little else to offer as dates.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 4, 2007)

Good point, LoveBHMS


Holy shit, is that what I have to do to find a man that treats me right? Date a cheater?


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## swordchick (Jan 5, 2007)

If you are nosy enough, the cheater's niceness will turn into anger.


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## VanilaGorila (Jan 5, 2007)

fatlane said:


> So if the woman's a just-regular-whore, you're all cool with that. Just making sure I know where you're coming from, my man.



Yeah, at least shes' an honest ho. :smitten:


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 5, 2007)

If my date took me out and said "Hey, go over to some of those drippy looking guys and get them to buy drinks for you." I'd be pretty clear on what he thought of me.


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## fatlane (Jan 5, 2007)

VanilaGorila said:


> Yeah, at least shes' an honest ho. :smitten:



Righteous, brother.


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## fatlane (Jan 5, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I could be wrong, but here's why.
> 
> Men that are cheating know they have very little to offer. They can't be your boyfriend or future husband. You have no Valentine's Day, no New Year's Eve, and you're not his date to the company Christmas Party.
> 
> Men that are cheaters typically treat you very well, as they have little else to offer as dates.



Unless he's a cheap-ass cheater, which would make him a bad person.

Check to see if he took on a coal delivery on or around the 25th last month.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Jan 5, 2007)

ya know, now that you mention it, he did have some black smudges on his sweater.....
I just thought he was a fan of chocolate, or something. It was the COAL!!!!

(Insert Law and Order chun-chun sound)

Fade to coal black screen..


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## snuggletiger (Jan 5, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> If my date took me out and said "Hey, go over to some of those drippy looking guys and get them to buy drinks for you." I'd be pretty clear on what he thought of me.



I was about to say that, any guy that takes his lady out and has her prowling the bar to get drippy people to buy her drinks. Can we say beyond sad? Maybe I am old fashioned.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 5, 2007)

snuggletiger said:


> I was about to say that, any guy that takes his lady out and has her prowling the bar to get drippy people to buy her drinks. Can we say beyond sad? Maybe I am old fashioned.



about one of these scenes. VG's girl [or "ass" as he likes to call them] goes over to hustle drinks from drippy looking guy. Drippy looking guy makes joke or says something interesting and "Ass" inadvertantly enters into discussion with him. Turns out drippy looking guy is funny and gentlemanly, and only looks sort of nerdy because clothes aren't that important when you work as a commodities trader. "Ass" realizes she's got a much better deal and "DLG" [Drippy Looking Guy] asks for her phone number and she gives it to him, in full view of VG. DLG then sends VG a drink along with a note encouraging him to spend the rest of the evening drinking alone, and DLG has stolen his date.


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## activistfatgirl (Jan 5, 2007)

While I don't recommend cheaters, I can recommend men who don't want to be in relationships with you (but enjoy you) and also have catholic guilt. Thus, never having to pay for anything, and getting presents.


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## fatlane (Jan 5, 2007)

If anyone asks me out, they are gonna pay and the cost is gonna be PROHIBITIVE!

I am as high maintenance as they come, let me tell you.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 5, 2007)

^^I can tell you're worth it though, bey-bee


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