# Sexual attraction and activism



## ripley (May 13, 2006)

I tried to talk about this in Hyde Park but that place is like a DMZ, so here goes here. 

I've been thinking a lot about fat acceptance, and how a majority of the "movement' is tied up in sexual attraction. Perhaps I have that impression because I get most, if not all, of my acceptance interaction here at Dims, and Conrad has stated before that one of his goals here was interaction between FA and BBW. 

Anyway, an admirer in a thread in Hyde Park referred to his complimenting a BBW as "activism." This bothers me in a couple of ways. I am all for fat admirers complimenting the objects of their desire. That said, I don't see that as activism. We talk a lot on the forums about attraction, about how fat women want admirers to be uncloseted, and proud to be with them. I think it's a very real thing, that in a lot of ways we don't understand each other, and have things to work out. I guess I just don't think that acting on your own desires for a fat partner makes you an activist. You aren't doing any favors to fat people when you compliment them, date them, whatever. You are doing that because that's what you want, and if you are true to yourself you will go out and get what you want, and not what society tells you you should want. 

I've had strangers in chat tell me "I'd date you." What am I supposed to say to that? Thank you? That's so generous of you? Most of the time I really want to say "What in the hell makes you think I'd date YOU?" 

But activism? I wonder how many here think about how fat people earn less money, get slighted by health care professionals, have problems even in actually_ fitting _in to society...as much as they do sexual attraction between fat admirers and the fat? It seems kind of like preaching to the choir, and I don't know how much it impacts society as a whole in terms of advancing acceptance for fat people.

I'm all for flirting. I'm all for silly "fluff" posts. I make them myself...I adore humor. I love the OT posts on the boards that let me get to know another side of my fellow posters...it fosters a wonderful sense of community. I also know that I don't do enough personally in terms of activism. 

It just seems sad and wrong to me that "You've got a great ass!" has come to be viewed as activism.  

I'm not sure I've explained myself very well, but I just wanted to spark a discussion, so I guess it doesn't really matter how eloquent I've been.  So...any thoughts?


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## Tina (May 13, 2006)

I think that kind of thing might only be thought of as "activism" by guys who do not truly believe fat women are beautiful and that they are doing them a favor.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 13, 2006)

I think you explained yourself very well and I agree. Perhaps what the other poster meant was that by putting himself out there as an admirer was the activism. I'm not sure how I feel about that either. On one hand I'm honored that there are men out there who don't care what society thinks and are proud to flirt with a fat girl in public. On the other hand...it kinda sucks that I even feel that way. Seems a little degrading. Am I making sense? 

Bottom line...I don't think the other poster meant any offense but I do agree with you. I think activism was not the correct term...Then again maybe just talking openly about attraction is taking an active approach to fat acceptance?

I don't know. I seem to be all over the place on this one. Good post, Ripley. A real thought provoker.


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## Michelle (May 13, 2006)

Ripley, I wish I could think of something meaningful to post back to you regarding this, but I can't. I agree with you. Complimenting a pretty woman is not activism. I'd like to think that Vince was calling it activism in a tongue-in-cheek way, but I've been known to be wrong lots and lots and lots of times. 

I once made a post to this board (view it at http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1170) equating smoking to fat. What the post talks about really worries me, but only three people posted to it. I guess people don't tend to worry about things until they become reality or until they affect them personally.

I'm being paid very fairly in my current position, but I know for a fact that if I wasn't a fat woman, I'd be paid better. I've been lucky when it comes to medical care but I'm very aware that might not always be the case and I dread the day I have to face that. As far as fitting in - I hate always asking for a table instead of a booth and for being worried about plane seats. The local theatre/music venue had tight seats about 50 pounds ago. I can't even imagine what they'd be like now, but I don't have the guts to find out. And, unfortunately, I also don't have any bright ideas how to counteract such things.

But I just had to respond to your post because I think this sort of thing is talked about far too infrequently around here. (And as you know, I'm one of hte queens of the OT meaningless variety of posts).

Thanks.


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## ripley (May 13, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I don't know. I seem to be all over the place on this one. Good post, Ripley. A real thought provoker.




I felt like I was all over the place on it too, lol. I just feel like (myself included) the overwhelming discussion of fat acceptance seems to come down to sexual attraction. I just think that on the whole, that doesn't have much impact on society as a whole.



I wanted to talk about this without it being about that poster at all; threads seem to devolve into discussions of his character and his interaction here and the issues fall by the wayside.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 13, 2006)

And if you pay attention, you will see that many fat acceptance events happen at hotels. HMMMM





ripley said:


> I felt like I was all over the place on it too, lol. I just feel like (myself included) the overwhelming discussion of fat acceptance seems to come down to sexual attraction. I just think that on the whole, that doesn't have much impact on society as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to talk about this without it being about that poster at all; threads seem to devolve into discussions of his character and his interaction here and the issues fall by the wayside.


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## ripley (May 13, 2006)

I missed your post on smoking, thank you for linking me.  I agree that it's scary, and that the same thing might happen to the fat...the same sin tax kind of thing.

The irony is that at the same time, we will be innundated with millions of dollars of advertising to get us to buy the things that contribute to being fat, while at the same time being punished for it.


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## LillyBBBW (May 13, 2006)

I remember years ago when I first came into contact with NAAFA and size acceptance was a new concept. I went to my first NAAFA meeting and an argument ensued ( as they usually do at NAAFA meetings ) about activism. Some woman suggested a party and I got all excited thinking, "Yay!" Some other woman shot it right down. She was all huffy about activism not being a social scene or a hit club, bla bla bla. I felt so left out of the whole thing. I was still at that, "I'm a fat cow," stage and needed 'something' but that woman made me feel so embarrassed. Her manner was so condescending. Her words made me feel like I'm this pathetic loser fat person looking for reassurances who's beneath them all because they've 'arrived.' I'll never forget it how low that made me feel. I left there feeling worse than before. I never went back.

I think as confident fat people sometimes we lose touch with the fact that activism has starts on a personal level first for most people. There's a lot of people here in Dimensions and we have a grand old time slapping each other on the back but there's a whole world of people out there who can't even look anyone in the eye they've been marginalized so badly. Do they have to be ashamed of needing someone to tell them that they're okay? Maybe those things aren't important to you anymore and you're alright and that's cool. But somebody else might need that. Someone who feels like I felt that first day I went to that NAAFA meeting is not going to ask the office manager for a wider seat for their desk or give their health care professional a going over when he's out of line.


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## Tiger's_Lily (May 13, 2006)

ripley said:


> I felt like I was all over the place on it too, lol. I just feel like (myself included) the overwhelming discussion of fat acceptance seems to come down to sexual attraction. I just think that on the whole, that doesn't have much impact on society as a whole.
> 
> I wanted to talk about this without it being about that poster at all; threads seem to devolve into discussions of his character and his interaction here and the issues fall by the wayside.



*
Ripley, I do agree with you about it coming down to sexual attraction above all, for a hell of a lot of guys out there. Maybe not all, but I think I'd be making a safe bet on probably 80% of the guys who come here, do so simply for sexual reasons. 

I've just about given up ever finding a guy who wanted to be with me simply because he likes 'me', not because he gets a hard on because of the size of my boobs or whatever! 

Lets face it ladies, when a guy says he's a 'Fat' admirer, that's exactly what he means!! *


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## Santaclear (May 13, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I remember years ago when I first came into contact with NAAFA and size acceptance was a new concept. I went to my first NAAFA meeting and an argument ensued ( as they usually do at NAAFA meetings ) about activism. Some woman suggested a party and I got all excited thinking, "Yay!" Some other woman shot it right down. She was all huffy about activism not being a social scene or a hit club, bla bla bla. I felt so left out of the whole thing. I was still at that, "I'm a fat cow," stage and needed 'something' but that woman made me feel so embarrassed. Her manner was so condescending. Her words made me feel like I'm this pathetic loser fat person looking for reassurances who's beneath them all because they've 'arrived.' I'll never forget it how low that made me feel. I left there feeling worse than before. I never went back.
> 
> I think as confident fat people sometimes we lose touch with the fact that activism has starts on a personal level first for most people. There's a lot of people here in Dimensions and we have a grand old time slapping each other on the back but there's a whole world of people out there who can't even look anyone in the eye they've been marginalized so badly. Do they have to be ashamed of needing someone to tell them that they're okay? Maybe those things aren't important to you anymore and you're alright and that's cool. But somebody else might need that. Someone who feels like I felt that first day I went to that NAAFA meeting is not going to ask the office manager for a wider seat for their desk or give their health care professional a going over when he's out of line.



Good point, Lilly. I think that's why it's silly for anyone to be OFFENDED at the idea that compliments can be construed as "activism".

OTOH considering horniness "activism" is indeed a stretch.


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## Chimpi (May 13, 2006)

Personally, I very much understood your point.
One of my major pet peeves is the fact that people cannot realize that attraction comes from a personal view, not a global view.


ripley said:


> we will be innundated with millions of dollars of advertising to get us to buy the things that contribute to being fat


Personally, and it may have something to do with the fact that I do not have Cable Television (I use rabit ears), but I see more Weight Loss, Slim Fast, Fat-Burning Pill, and all those sorts of commercials 10x fold than I do junk food commercials. Actually, I hardly ever see advertising for Doritos, or Lays chips, or chocolate chip cookies, or jelly beans, or Cadbury Easter eggs, or any of those anymore. Again, contributions to that may be lacking because of the rabit ears and the fact that I do not watch much television anyway.

As I have stated before, I, personally, don't even like the terms "Fat Acceptance Movement", because I do not, and should not, view the situation at hand as a movement, but rather the way life is (for me), and should be. Loving a person, and all that comes with it (whether it's 5 pounds, 100 pounds, or 600 pounds) is not all that far-fetched. Maybe I am comparing that to myself, I'm not sure. I do not view it as "activism" myself. I have personally told random women they were beautiful at many sizes (though, I will openly admit that a very high percentage of them were very heavy). It is nothing more than an effort to brighten that persons day, rather than trying to change their life. If I have the opportunity to explain to them that Fat is not ugly, Fat is not disgraceful, Fat is beautiful, I certainly will... but such opportunity has yet to come up.

Also, in reply to Tigers Lily, I believe that being attracted to someone not only comes from them as a person, but the way they look. It is not unacceptable to love the way a person looks, and to be honest, there are no descriptions above someones head in a club that you can refer to when "picking someone up". There are no easy buttons, no profile pages, none of that. The first thing you notice is the way they look, and/or the way they move or act. Unless conversation strikes, I highly doubt many people would go up to someone they find unattractive and start hitting on them. 

Afterall, it is human nature to be attracted to whatever you are attracted to. Stimulation and sex appeal come from a sex drive. Without a sex drive, it is rare that relationships last happily-ever-after.

Like Michelle said, I've been proven wrong plenty of times, but that is the way I view it.

But I agree that people who call themselves Fat Admirers should accept the disabilities and "down-sides" to all that come along with a heavy person. No one is perfect, afterall.

ripley, I feel exactly the way you do. That my post did not come out the way I imagined it.


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## ripley (May 13, 2006)

Thanks for your post Lilly; it made me think and that's what I wanted this thread to do, make people think. I agree with you that social interaction is important; I think I said that in my post, that I enjoy that part of Dims. You are right, we do need to extend a hand to all those that are just starting out on the road to acceptance. 

I wasn't offended by what Vince said. In fact, I'd like to take him, people's reactions to him, his history on this board or any other board out of the discussion completely. His comment made me think, and I wanted to talk about it with you all. 

As for me having "arrived"...I deserve neither such praise nor such censure. I like getting compliments from men. Hell, from women too. I still have tons of issues regarding my fatness. I am still shy and gauche around people a lot of the time. Yes, I've been marginalized too. I just think that complimenting fat people should be the first step we take in fostering acceptance, not the last.

I didn't mean to rile anyone with this post, btw.


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## Donna (May 13, 2006)

There is a distinct difference between the "fat is beautiful" movement and fat acceptance IMHO. To me, acceptance transcends whether or not I am fat. I don't want to be [hired/admired/treated any differently] because I happen to be a fat woman. I want to be [admired/hired/treated differently] because of who I am, not the body I happen to live in. 

Does this mean I don't appreciate when a man tells me I am beautiful? Hell no! I used to model for a paysite, I sure as hell didn't do that simply to further the "cause". Just yesterday a very good friend gave me a compliment that was unexpected and came out of the blue and it felt so good I thought I would pop. But is he a size activist simply because he happens to be an FA with good taste? Nope, not in my book.

And as Lilybbw pointed out, there are folks who need and crave that kind of attention. So thankfully there are places like Dimensions where the attraction FAs feel is celebrated. A meaningful compliment is NEVER a bad thing!

Activism to me is about politics and rights. Activism is about advocating at the doctor's office for myself (or going with a friend who doesn't have a big mouth like me.) Activism is about demanding fat people be treated like, well, PEOPLE regardless of what shell they happen to be contained in. Activism is about staring down the jerk in the street who makes a snide comment, or asking for a chair with no arms. It's about pushing legislation that protects the rights of all people. 

Can the two things stand side by side? Yeah, I think so. Right here, for example, the two schools of thought sit side by side. Sometimes we coexist (TSL I think I owe you royalties for borrowing your word?) and sometimes we clash. I think the key is to strive for the former. But that's just me.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 13, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I remember years ago when I first came into contact with NAAFA and size acceptance was a new concept. I went to my first NAAFA meeting and an argument ensued ( as they usually do at NAAFA meetings ) about activism. Some woman suggested a party and I got all excited thinking, "Yay!" Some other woman shot it right down. She was all huffy about activism not being a social scene or a hit club, bla bla bla. I felt so left out of the whole thing. I was still at that, "I'm a fat cow," stage and needed 'something' but that woman made me feel so embarrassed. Her manner was so condescending. Her words made me feel like I'm this pathetic loser fat person looking for reassurances who's beneath them all because they've 'arrived.' I'll never forget it how low that made me feel. I left there feeling worse than before. I never went back.
> 
> I think as confident fat people sometimes we lose touch with the fact that activism has starts on a personal level first for most people. There's a lot of people here in Dimensions and we have a grand old time slapping each other on the back but there's a whole world of people out there who can't even look anyone in the eye they've been marginalized so badly. Do they have to be ashamed of needing someone to tell them that they're okay? Maybe those things aren't important to you anymore and you're alright and that's cool. But somebody else might need that. Someone who feels like I felt that first day I went to that NAAFA meeting is not going to ask the office manager for a wider seat for their desk or give their health care professional a going over when he's out of line.




Lilly, I really wish you'd stop posting such great statements when I can't rep you!

I agree with you AND Ripley. Activism is more then a compliment but a compliment to so nice to hear. I know for myself I'm just learning that I can be attractive to others. I had believed for a long, long time thinking I was physically unappealing to anyone. I know that is not true now and I have the sexual part of fat acceptance to thank for that. So, to me at this point in my life, activism is just putting myself out there for people _to_ accept me instead of hiding myself away.

Does that make sense?


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## TallFatSue (May 13, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> There is a distinct difference between the "fat is beautiful" movement and fat acceptance IMHO. To me, acceptance transcends whether or not I am fat. I don't want to be [hired/admired/treated any differently] because I happen to be a fat woman. I want to be [admired/hired/treated differently] because of who I am, not the body I happen to live in.


Agreed. Fat acceptance transcends my fat. My husband fell in love with me because of who I am, and now he adores my fat because it's the body I happen to live in. At least that's his story and he's sticking to it.  

As to fat activism, methinks the best form of fat activism is simply to set good examples. If each of us can improve another's opinion of fat people, then in the aggregate we can move mountains. Although my boss hasn't come right out and said it, I'm pretty sure that when I was promoted to office manager, it wasn't "despite" the fact that I'm fat. My fat was irrelevant, and I was apparently the best candidate for the job.


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## mossystate (May 13, 2006)

Place...Dim chat...
A pleasant sounding man approaches me in private.."hi..how are you".."that is a lovely picture"..so far so good..."so,are you happy being your size?"...I answer him honestly..that I am learning to love my body(slow process)..."are you one of those big gals who want to lose any weight?"...again, I am honest and tell him I MIGHT lose a little, that my knees are not doing well at this weight(and because I have injured my right knee)..."oh,don't do that..you are so hot".......

Place..Dim Chat...
A pleasant sounding man approaches me in private..asks how I am ..etc...asks if I like being the size I am(but that is not his 2nd or 3rd or 4th message to me)......again....am honest...............he says..."well, you need to do what is best for you,your comfort is of utmost importance"...needless to say, I have had more than one conversation with THIS man.....

A Clue...this man had one..I don't know if he bought it..if he was born with it..or if he has loved enough fat women to....get it......


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## LillyBBBW (May 13, 2006)

ripley said:


> Thanks for your post Lilly; it made me think and that's what I wanted this thread to do, make people think. I agree with you that social interaction is important; I think I said that in my post, that I enjoy that part of Dims. You are right, we do need to extend a hand to all those that are just starting out on the road to acceptance.
> 
> I wasn't offended by what Vince said. In fact, I'd like to take him, people's reactions to him, his history on this board or any other board out of the discussion completely. His comment made me think, and I wanted to talk about it with you all.
> 
> ...



No, I wasn't riled at all Ripley. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I guess I'm just passionate about the issue because I can still remember the sting of how it felt to be searching the crowd for a friendly face, coming to a place where I thought that would happen and then finding yet another reason for me to be ashamed of myself that I had never even thought of. This discussion sort of reminded me of it, but I was not accusing anyone of being mean or evil. Just trying to bring to attention how a discussion like this could make someone feel. I'm sure that woman at the NAAFA event wasn't trying to make me feel bad.

In some ways I was looking for a sense of normalcy. I needed a level playing field where my size was no longer a pariah but considered an ideal. This gave me an opportunity to socialize in an atmosphere similar to what my friends enjoyed, them all being thin and proportioned. In the FA/BBW scene I was at the same level socially that they enjoyed mainstream wise in my view - no more no less. I had no illusions that my being the ideal to an FA was somehow more freakish or fetishlike than it was for my friends to be the ideal at Rosie O'Grady's Tavern on a Friday night after work.

That being said, it was being at that level playing field where it became a little easier for me to notice when things weren't right elsewhere. The subtle things that I merely accepted as normal treatment suddenly became a 'now wait a minute' moment. It created an awareness that I didn't have before in regards to activism. I now had a voice that allowed me to address poor commentary and behavior with the proper response rather than to just nod obligingly like it was fair under the circumstances. On some level I knew I needed immersion into this BBW underground to detoxify myself from negative thinking that I was probably not even aware of.

I know you said leave Vince out of it, but I'm going to bring it up merely because it he's handy to the point I'm going to make. Vince said he told the woman she was pretty. He didn't say, Damn baby, nice rack or anything like that. It was a perfectly normal compliment that if made to a thin woman it would have meant nothing at all. But because she was fat a few things happened:

1. She rejected his compliment. Surely she can't be pretty, because she's fat. 
2. Because he found her pretty, obviously some sinister plot must be afoot. On her part maybe she thought it was because she finds it preposterous that a man would call her pretty. On our part, o my god he's slobbering over her fat, it's all about the fat, the fat, we're fat, she's fat, somebody stop him.

From my vantage point it almost looks at though within fat acceptance there seems to be that self esteem issues take on another extreme where at first we're scared people are going to hate it, THEN we're scared people are going to love it - either way we don't want people to see it. I know I'm not saying it right. I'm trying to convey something that it's hard to pinpoint but it seems fat acceptance is a long way off when we spend most of our time not wanting to be noticed for it either way. 

For me my fat is a part of me just like being thin or tall is a part of my friends' personas. Nobody wants to be hired or fired over it but people want all of their attributes to be appreciated, accepted and not just ignored or simply tolerated. 

I'm still not saying it right. I don't think I can. Maybe I'll have a better way of putting it tomorrow.


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## ripley (May 14, 2006)

I think you said it very well.  One thing, though...I think thin women respond in much the same way to compliments. A LOT of women don't accept compliments well, fat or thin. Perhaps they don't want to be seen as proud, perhaps it's some ingrained thing about being a modest woman.


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## rainyday (May 14, 2006)

Tiger's_Lily said:


> I've just about given up ever finding a guy who wanted to be with me simply because he likes 'me', not because he gets a hard on because of the size of my boobs or whatever!
> 
> Lets face it ladies, when a guy says he's a 'Fat' admirer, that's exactly what he means!!



Tiger, are you saying you think these two things--liking you for you and also admiring your fat--are mutually exclusive? In my experience, personality and shared interests are just as important to fat admirers looking for long-term relationships as any other guy. Unless he's just looking for sex; in that case it really is just the body that counts, but that's just as true for men who aren't fat admirers. 

If you're going to have a relationship with a guy, I'd hope something about you would keep him sexually interested. As long as the mental attraction is also there, who cares if it's your fat boobs or (if you were a thin woman) your tiny waspy waist that makes him go "schwing!"?


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## The_Trout (May 14, 2006)

Would I get any more dates If I said I was an "activist".

I seem to remember a Woody Allen movie (Bananas?) where his character has the hots for a woman that's involved in some political movement... So he presents himself as having the same point of view.

I've been lurking around here for a while and I see a lot of posts from men that seem to me like trawling for dates. I certainly wouldn't consider giving a compliment some sort of activisim. But then perhaps the gentleman in question isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Yes, I'm trawling to. I was hoping to find some events, or mixers, in my area, and I'm kind of surprised by how few there are.


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## CleverBomb (May 14, 2006)

rainyday said:


> Tiger, are you saying you think these two things--liking you for you and also admiring your fat--are mutually exclusive? In my experience, personality and shared interests are just as important to fat admirers looking for long-term relationships as any other guy. Unless he's just looking for sex; in that case it really is just the body that counts, but that's just as true for men who aren't fat admirers.
> 
> If you're going to have a relationship with a guy, I'd hope something about you would keep him sexually interested. As long as the mental attraction is also there, who cares if it's your fat boobs or (if you were a thin woman) your tiny waspy waist that makes him go "schwing!"?


Ok, how does the "rep" thing work?
Good post.


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## BBW Betty (May 14, 2006)

Ripley, yes, Vince's thread was one to make me think a lot, too. I'm glad you started this here. 

while I agree that "activism" wasn't the best word choice for him, he did a good job politely describing how he saw a scene unfold. Maybe the story he told could better be labeled "FA activism?"  After all, if he can convince more FAs to come out of the closet.

There are so many wonder posts in this thread. Women in general DON'T respond well to compliments, and especially we fat gals have been told so often that we aren't attractive that it's doubly difficult.

Either way, it is always nice to get a compliment.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 14, 2006)

Ahem... I'm waiting for my check, Donna.  

Seriously, interesting thread. I get a wee bit tired of a number of FAs whining. "Oh poor me. No one likes my taste in a sexual partner. Boohoo." Seriously, it makes me sick. Oh, your parents and friends don't like who you're dating? Well guess what, when you're a grown-up, it's time to take personal responsibility. And frankly, I've never heard of a FA bashing. Don't want to hear it. Don't care. If I hear one more FA compare his or her plight to that of a GLBTQ person, I'm going to scream.

Moral of the story: Be a good FA by being open and nice to the women you're attracted to. Be considerate of their needs and be honest about yours. The end.


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## 31mike (May 14, 2006)

It sure does Nancy ! ALL of you need to realize you are who you are...and that is preety terrific if you ask me!!! Want a second opinion ? Some of you..and you know who you are,,,are AWESOME.

But remember beauty is only skin deep... Some of you have lovely personalities besides. Be who you are !!! Don't be concerned about the wackos how will never come to know the REAL you enjoy those of us who do!


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## GeorgeNL (May 14, 2006)

I agree with Lilly here, the fast majority of men here come to see and talk to women of their desire. Comes another question to my mind: if you feel that someone is attractive, does that automatically imply you consider that person beautiful? Ok, though one, maybe for some other time.

I agree that a compliment or flirth has nothing to do with activism. It's just normal human behavior. However, think of the reverse, assume FAs and FFAs did not exist, and no big woman or big man would be considered attractive to anyone. How would you defend that big people are beautiful too? Now you might argue that it has nothing to do with discrimination, but I'm quite sure if people would realize that big people are as representive/attractive as slim people, a lot would be won. I think, without the backup of those that recognize your qualities and beauty, you do have a more difficult time.


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## LillyBBBW (May 14, 2006)

I think the distinction has to be made as to the difference between flirting and complimenting. With one the person is hoping for a hook up or to get lucky or whatever - they're looking for something in return. 

A compliment is NOT flirting. Teachers and professionals employ the power of a compliment regularly in the lives of children and adults with self esteem issues. As human beings we 'need' this. Every single person on this board needs it. Who among us doesn't want to punch the lights out of a person who puts down a child or ignores him? Without it, or if only stimulated by negative feedback, a child will grow up to be a pretty f*cked up individual and we all know it. So yeah, positive reinforcement, compliments are activism in my view. Yeah, there are people out there who are merely looking for a lay and that can scare us away from acknowledging how good it feels to receive praise. But it is important for all of us even as adults and there's nothing wrong with needing some stroking from time to time. It's human.


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## Carrie (May 14, 2006)

The_Trout said:


> Would I get any more dates If I said I was an "activist".
> 
> I seem to remember a Woody Allen movie (Bananas?) where his character has the hots for a woman that's involved in some political movement... So he presents himself as having the same point of view.



Love that movie - and he ends up as the dictator of a Central American country, doesn't he?  

Anyway. I also think that acceptance and activism are different, but they are highly interwoven. I think of acceptance as kind of step 1 towards activism - and some people advance beyond it into activism, while some don't. 

For me, after I had my own personal revelations that led me to embrace and accept my size, that was great for a while, but eventually it felt like...not enough. I was angry and unsatisfied that while *I* had grown and learned so much, the world around me hadn't, so I began taking small steps toward activism. Now if I sense that I am being mistreated because of my weight, I take active steps to fix that. If I'm in a situation where fat people are blatantly not welcome (i.e. seats being much too small), I'll find the proper person and say something - politely, but strongly. I live my everyday life in such a way that I can hold my head up high - and while this may not sound like activism, I think it is, in a very small sense. The more positive interactions I can have with others in my life, the more I hope they have the opportunity to see fat people in a positive light. 

It probably depends a great deal on your definition of "activism", too. I hear activism, and I picture rallies and posters and buttons, and well....that's just not my scene. So for me, activism begins at home. Think globally, act locally and all that. 

As far as fat admiration and activism, maybe it goes the same way - maybe some FA's are on their way to becoming activists (even in a small sense, like myself), and some won't ever be. And no, while complimenting a fat woman isn't what I consider activism, maybe it's a small step in the right direction? 

Really good topic, Ripley.


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## LillyBBBW (May 14, 2006)

Carrie said:


> Love that movie - and he ends up as the dictator of a Central American country, doesn't he?
> 
> Anyway. I also think that acceptance and activism are different, but they are highly interwoven. I think of acceptance as kind of step 1 towards activism - and some people advance beyond it into activism, while some don't.
> 
> ...



_You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later._

Damn, everybody has such good things to say!  I totally agree Carrie. Imagine how much different the world would be if fat people in general on a personal level began approaching store managers and institutions to complain about the unwelcoming atmosphere cultivated by the environment. I agree with many people who have already pointed out the impact of personal activism. It does a whole lot more than a poster or a slogan can do.


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## Donna (May 14, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I agree with many people who have already pointed out the impact of personal activism. It does a whole lot more than a poster or a slogan can do.



You bring in an interesting point, though. While we should be doing all that we can do from a personal level, what about the bigger picture? What about those slogans, posters and marches? Is there a large scale political organization out there that supports people of size? We've already established that Dimensions is about social interaction, the FAs Playboy if you will. And while Playboy has some political edge to it, it's about lifestyle. Ditto with NAAFA. NAAFA, to me, seems conflicted and confused in their stance. I am not putting them down when I say this, please don't get me wrong. IMHO they appear as having two minds; one dedicated to activism in the form I am suggesting here and one dedicated to the lifestyle and social interaction.

We're multi-dimensional people and we need a mutli-dimensional movement.

Every movement has it's pivotal leader or focal point. I don't care for the analogy between the civil rights movement and the SA movement so much because in my mind it waters down both. But I am borrowing the Civil Rights movement for a moment for a demonstration. The civil rights movement had the black panthers, Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. Who will be that for Size Acceptance? Who will refuse to move to the back of the bus? And more importantly, are we READY for that or are we, as a movement, still too scattered in our focus?

I've just finished reading The Invisible Woman: Confronting Weight Prejudice in America by W. Charisse Goodman. It's an excellent book, and I highly recommend it. Some of her analogies annoy me, and the book seems to be written as if it's trying to convince someone that fat prejudice exists, but overall she makes some very valid arguments and statements. One of her closing points is this, "We must renounce the social hierarchy that places thin women at the top of the heap at the expense of large women, and we must discourage the social inertia that shrugs off injustice just because it is the familiar status quo. We must, in the words of Carole Shaw, founder and former editor of BBW magazine, stop apologizing for ourselves." 

Oh, and TSL, your check is in the mail.


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## JMNYC (May 14, 2006)

You must remember we are all three years old. 

View attachment J&N 60s.jpg


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## NancyGirl74 (May 14, 2006)

> 31mike said:
> 
> 
> > It sure does Nancy! ALL of you need to realize you are who you are...and that is preety terrific if you ask me!!! Want a second opinion? Some of you..and you know who you are,,,are AWESOME.
> ...


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## LillyBBBW (May 14, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> You bring in an interesting point, though. While we should be doing all that we can do from a personal level, what about the bigger picture? What about those slogans, posters and marches? Is there a large scale political organization out there that supports people of size? We've already established that Dimensions is about social interaction, the FAs Playboy if you will. And while Playboy has some political edge to it, it's about lifestyle. Ditto with NAAFA. NAAFA, to me, seems conflicted and confused in their stance. I am not putting them down when I say this, please don't get me wrong. IMHO they appear as having two minds; one dedicated to activism in the form I am suggesting here and one dedicated to the lifestyle and social interaction.
> 
> We're multi-dimensional people and we need a mutli-dimensional movement.
> 
> ...



I wish I knew Donna. One of my biggest pet peeves of late has been the new seat belt laws. You can get pulled over by the cops *just* for not having a seatbelt on. I don't have a car so I live off of the kindness of strangers and nine times out of ten I cannot comply with the law. I can't wear the seatbelt, but I will get fined/ticketed anyway even though the law is something I cannot physically obey. I can buy an extender or two but still it's no guarantee that they will work in the car that comes to pick me up. 

Who do you go to to get a round of support for something to be done? Who do you write to? How do you get people to care about this or to be a united voice to bring about change? It's times like these when maybe a slogan or a button would be appropriate but I really don't see any place or any organization with enough support people wise or financially to do anything but come here to Dimensions, complain and debate. Our lives are at steak in this issue of seatbelt safely. 

Not to mention the safety of an air bag on a fat person. I've always wondered. Airbags are tested on average citizens. We already know that they kill children and people who are petite but what would the pressure of an fully inflated airbag do to a 360 pound woman with size DDD? Could it collapse her chest cavity and cut off the oxygen supply? Smash in her face and break all of her facial bones? I'm a weirdo who sits up at night and thinks about this kind of stuff.  But I feel all alone in that I don't know how or where to go to raise these issues.


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## Jes (May 14, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Ahem... I'm waiting for my check, Donna.
> 
> Seriously, interesting thread. I get a wee bit tired of a number of FAs whining. "Oh poor me. No one likes my taste in a sexual partner. Boohoo." Seriously, it makes me sick. Oh, your parents and friends don't like who you're dating? Well guess what, when you're a grown-up, it's time to take personal responsibility. And frankly, I've never heard of a FA bashing. Don't want to hear it. Don't care. If I hear one more FA compare his or her plight to that of a GLBTQ person, I'm going to scream.
> 
> Moral of the story: Be a good FA by being open and nice to the women you're attracted to. Be considerate of their needs and be honest about yours. The end.


Hear hear. but then you have to let your colleague date the toothless guy b/c, hey, she likes him and she's out about it.


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## BeaBea (May 14, 2006)

Nothing to add here but I am SO enjoying this thread. Though provoking, intelligent debate, polite questioning, great exchange of information. My hat is off to you all, folks!

If I manage to think of something that one of you hasn't already said ten times better than me I'll contribute. Until then though, I'm thoroughtly enjoying being a spectator.

Tracey

www.beabea.co.uk


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## Egbert Souse (May 14, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> If I hear one more FA compare his or her plight to that of a GLBTQ person, I'm going to scream.



As i read your post, each subsequent line elicited increasingly emphatic responses of "YES!" from this reader until the one quoted above, which was SO something i've been not saying forever, that my head near exploded.

Even not knowing exactly what a GLBTQ person is, this post inspired a hearty "Hear!, Hear!" here.


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## LillyBBBW (May 14, 2006)

Egbert Souse said:


> As i read your post, each subsequent line elicited increasingly emphatic responses of "YES!" from this reader until the one quoted above, which was SO something i've been not saying forever, that my head near exploded.
> 
> Even not knowing exactly what a GLBTQ person is, this post inspired a hearty "Hear!, Hear!" here.


 
GLBTQ = Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgendered, Queer


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## MissToodles (May 14, 2006)

not to mention, many think here that activism includes only the ones they find attractive. if one really cares about the plight of a "different" person, it includes everyone--not just ones you have some sort of chemistry with. it's very important to ally yourself with a person who faces adversity that you might not or perhaps ones' attraction can extend into activism when they see their partner face various issues throughout life. that happens too.


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## NFA (May 14, 2006)

I frankly don't think much of any activism relating to fat people is based on or inspired by sexual attraction. Social events are important, but they aren't activism. They are support. They are important, don't mistake me, but the fact remains that as it stands they are almost completely divorced for any actual fat activism. Indeed, many social events do little more than encourage anti-fat activism.

FA's should be engaged into more fat activism, but powerful forces have ensured that does not happen. Indeed, they are actively encouraged away from fat acceptance and the leading fat acceptance organizations have silently consented to this state of affair for decades. They've allowed any outreach to FA's to be subverted into outreach for anti-size acceptance positions and the movement and many FA's have suffered for it.

The social and the political could have been united more. Though they serve different needs, they hardly need not to be opposed to each other. One simply needs to look at the gay community for proof of that. There has long been a strong need for social activities for the gay community due to extreme hostility seen in some quarters to gays and lesbians. But there is also a duel need for political activism. While they serve different needs, they are, for the most part, not actively in opposition. Indeed, they successfully coexist on a number of ocassions. We don't see that in the fat community, and it does all of us a disservice. You can have both without the social actions actively undermining and opposing the political activism, but that's not the state we are in. One reason this has been the case is that FA's aren't engaged the way they need to be. The fact is, these social events serve BBWs far more than they serve FA's. As pointed out, FA bashing is largely the product of self-hating FA's imaginations. Fat bashing, however, is quite real though rarely taking on the violent dimensions gay bashing does even at adult ages. As such, it can become easy for FA's to remain detached from the political. There is not the equality of status we see with the gay community. Indeed, an FA can "pass" very easily while a fat person never has the benefit of a "closet". The effect occurs in reverse, however, in that fat people are also given little incentive to become politically involved through social activities and many simple encourage a rejection of fat acceptance. FA's are given no reason to care politically, and neither are fat people. Social activities have been an enormous lost opportunity for fat accpetance which has now turned into something which often out-right opposes it.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 14, 2006)

Jes said:


> Hear hear. but then you have to let your colleague date the toothless guy b/c, hey, she likes him and she's out about it.



It's ONE half-rotten tooth, and if you don't want him naked in your apartment tonight, you'll get the facts right.


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## Sandie S-R (May 14, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I remember years ago when I first came into contact with NAAFA and size acceptance was a new concept. I went to my first NAAFA meeting and an argument ensued ( as they usually do at NAAFA meetings ) about activism. Some woman suggested a party and I got all excited thinking, "Yay!" Some other woman shot it right down. She was all huffy about activism not being a social scene or a hit club, bla bla bla. I felt so left out of the whole thing. I was still at that, "I'm a fat cow," stage and needed 'something' but that woman made me feel so embarrassed. Her manner was so condescending. Her words made me feel like I'm this pathetic loser fat person looking for reassurances who's beneath them all because they've 'arrived.' I'll never forget it how low that made me feel. I left there feeling worse than before. I never went back.
> 
> I think as confident fat people sometimes we lose touch with the fact that activism has starts on a personal level first for most people. There's a lot of people here in Dimensions and we have a grand old time slapping each other on the back but there's a whole world of people out there who can't even look anyone in the eye they've been marginalized so badly. Do they have to be ashamed of needing someone to tell them that they're okay? Maybe those things aren't important to you anymore and you're alright and that's cool. But somebody else might need that. Someone who feels like I felt that first day I went to that NAAFA meeting is not going to ask the office manager for a wider seat for their desk or give their health care professional a going over when he's out of line.



Lily...that was a brilliant and heartfelt post. (Not that that surprises me.  )
I think you are so right about about activism. Activism can be any step that anyone takes to further the idea that fat people can live full, active, health and happy lives. I think of the work I do in clothing as activism. People who sponsor dances are doing activsm, especially for those fat people that have been socially marginalized all their lives. When I volunteered at my grandson's elementary school...I considered it a form of activism (especially when I can give a smile to little fat child). 

I think it is important to remember that activism comes in many ways and frequently in very baby steps.


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## Ladyrose1952 (May 14, 2006)

I so agree with you.
I get a lot of wonderful comments and compliments and flirting since I created my Website and do post my pics here. But just because you get turned on by the looks of a Fat woman or man doesn't at all mean that you are totally for Size Accpetance unless you mean your urges when arroused by a certain body part or phrase.
To bad that these offers and suggestions are most of the time, empty thoughts brought on by boredom.


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## Pearlover90000 (May 14, 2006)

Let me say, that my idea of Activism for the size movement, came to my attention in a national newspaper, when some people in the size activisim movement Defaced and destroyed Billboards in NY of Kate Moss in the Calvin Klein underwear ads in the early 90's(etching a Skeleton face in place of the face).

That remains and stands out in my mind about Activism.








ripley said:


> I tried to talk about this in Hyde Park but that place is like a DMZ, so here goes here.
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about fat acceptance, and how a majority of the "movement' is tied up in sexual attraction. Perhaps I have that impression because I get most, if not all, of my acceptance interaction here at Dims, and Conrad has stated before that one of his goals here was interaction between FA and BBW.
> 
> ...


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## Jane (May 14, 2006)

And lets just face it...two different men coming up to you and saying the same thing can generate two different reactions. One you may find interesting while the other stands your hair on end. 

Nothing like a good case of the "willies" to generate a bad response.


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## ripley (May 14, 2006)

Lots of great responses!


I agree that acceptance is very important as well, but it bothers me that maybe just the attractive fat garner the benefits, whereas anything activism establishes benefits all.

I think that one of the reasons that size activist groups are scattered is because the vast majority of fat people believe the bias. They buy right in to the "fat = ugly" media onslaught. Borrowing the Civil Rights movement comparison...well, as far as I know you never had a huge section of african-americans buying into the racist sentiments. It seems to me that fat people don't have a cohesiveness, a kindredness...and that that will hobble our efforts.

When I think about complimenting in this light it does seem like an important foundation for activism and fat acceptance...that maybe we need to help people up out of the hole before we can get them climbing the ladder.


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## MisticalMisty (May 14, 2006)

ripley said:


> that maybe we need to help people up out of the hole before we can get them climbing the ladder.


Umm..I'm skerred of heights chica 

Seriously I can feel your exasperation and I have to agree with you...we can't have a truly gi-normus movement if we have fat people that still believe they aren't worthy of being accepted. I believe size acceptance starts from within..I know it did for me..I had to realize that I was worthy of having a great existence.

That being said..I think dimensions and NAAFA are great starting points..but it's up to each individual to push for rights in their everyday lives..

That's my story and I'm sticking to it


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## TraciJo67 (May 14, 2006)

Jane said:


> And lets just face it...two different men coming up to you and saying the same thing can generate two different reactions. One you may find interesting while the other stands your hair on end.
> 
> Nothing like a good case of the "willies" to generate a bad response.



A few weeks ago, Saturday Night Live did a hilarious (and topical) skit about sexual harrassment. It was put together as a very old film, giving suggestions of appropriate office behavior. Several scenarios were shown with attractive female employees being approached. In scenario #1, the guy doing the approaching is a complete dork. He walks up to his female coworker and, in a very bumbling manner, asks her for a date. Her response is to pick up the phone, and the voice-over assures us that she's contacting Human Resources.

Scenario #2 .. a very attractive man approaches the same female coworker ... wearing nothing but a pair of underwear. He hits on her in a very blatant way, and she falls all over herself saying 'yes' to an afternoon quickie.

So, the announcer tells us, here's how to avoid sexual harrassment:

1). Be attractive
2). Don't be Ugly


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## Jane (May 14, 2006)

Boy, it's not even attractive or not attractive....it's more "set off Spidey-sense" or "doesn't set off Spidey-sense."


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## Tina (May 15, 2006)

Reading this reminds me of the Black Power movement of the 1970s, of which the "Black is Beautiful" message became big. I'd love to see something like that only with fat, but I don't see it happening.

If you're black, there's not much you can do about it, and so one must come to accept it and embrace it as your heritage, as your race, as a beautiful thing, and not buy into the old mindsets, prejudices and sterotypes, in spite of all of the historic messags to the conrary.

The thing is, society will likely never recognize (in a widespread way) that, like race, some are just born to be fat. Society would rather we not accept and embrace our fat, and particularly companies making money on our discomfort with our own fat. So because there is the component of our own complicitness in our size, and the 'fact' that we can change it if we want to, and live some societal dream of being thin, we will never be encouraged by the media or society to just accept ourselves as we are and be our "Fat is Beautiful" selves. There's too much prejudice, too much discomfort with fat bodies, too much ignorance, and too much money to be made.

I don't mean to say that I have no hope for it, but more that it's not something I'm holding my breath for.


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## MissToodles (May 15, 2006)

but in some ways, I still can't see how you can get a "free pass" by giving someone you find attractive a compliment. So does that make you a knight riding in on the white stead? Does that mean you really care about someone's thoughts and feelings? Just because a white man may have a preference for black women doesn't mean he benefits from being the cultural norm and therefore his like of a black woman in a world where many standards of beauty aren't accepted should be lauded.

it's late, I'm rambling but really the political and the social should be two separate entities. that's why any type of social movement withers and then dies.


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## Chimpi (May 15, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> An excellent question! I think attraction plays a huge part in liking someone's personality as well. If you don't find someone physically attractive are you going to put as much effort into getting to know them as a person? You might...but in the dating game people don't appear to be all the open-minded. Attraction seems to come first and then it's an extra bonus if the personality matches up. I might be wrong but from what I've observed it seems to be that way.




You had my mind straying off and thought up this scenario:
Lets say there were buildings you could go into, for as long as you liked; the buildings had bed bunks and buffets and such. These buildings were "Significant Other" buildings. A place where you would go and, without seeing what they look like, you would get to know them as a person... first and foremost. Now, you meet an incredible match, on both sides, and then you have the opportunity to reveal yourself. He happens to be perfectly in-tune to what you want and admire. You, to him, however, are nothing as to what he wants to look at or sleep with. You have just opened yourself up, started "falling" for someone, then got hit in the head because of what you looked like.

Now, imagine the same building, but you have to choose your person first, solely based on what they look like. Okay, you see the same person, only, it is a different Dimension (pun intended), and he finds you severely attractive, especially due to your size. Now you have the opportunity to get to know him. Now, you're both welcome to getting to know each other. If he is what you're looking for, awesome. If you're what he's looking for, awesome. If either one starts to get uneasy about the person behind the picture, you get to spare yourself the tragedy of heart-break.

Personally, I'd rather have the second scenario. I think it is great to be able to get to know people solely based on what they look like. Personally, I'd rather be with someone that finds me amazingly hot, AND a perfect person, rather than a perfect person, and are temporing with the way I look. Therefor, I see nothing wrong with men (and women) coming to this site because of the widespread Big Beautiful Women and Big Handsome Males that are available. People know what people look like, plus you're getting to know them.



Sandie S-R said:


> I think you are so right about about activism. Activism can be any step that anyone takes to further the idea that fat people can live full, active, health and happy lives. I think of the work I do in clothing as activism. People who sponsor dances are doing activsm, especially for those fat people that have been socially marginalized all their lives. When I volunteered at my grandson's elementary school...I considered it a form of activism (especially when I can give a smile to little fat child).
> 
> I think it is important to remember that activism comes in many ways and frequently in very baby steps.



I think Sandie said it best with that.



MisticalMisty said:


> Seriously I can feel your exasperation and I have to agree with you...we can't have a truly gi-normus movement if we have fat people that still believe they aren't worthy of being accepted. I believe size acceptance starts from within..I know it did for me..I had to realize that I was worthy of having a great existence.



In other words, activism can come from a fat person accepting them first. They have the courage and active awareness that they certainly can be just as great of a person, just as attractive a person, as anybody else in the world. And in the same manner, a fat admirer experiences activism when he/she comes out from within and accepts the fact that they are what they are, there is nothing wrong with it, and they would not change it for the world. At least, that's what I got from that. Not only would Size Acceptance come from a personal standpoint, but activism as well.

Just thoughts chiming in my head.


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## Miss Vickie (May 15, 2006)

Jane said:


> Boy, it's not even attractive or not attractive....it's more "set off Spidey-sense" or "doesn't set off Spidey-sense."



Yep. I know what you mean. Once someone sets off my "skeeve meter" it doesn't matter what they say or do. I'll be creeped out.


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## The_Trout (May 15, 2006)

Giving a compliment, is a nice thing to do. Activism is point out someone's bad behavior when they when they say something derogatory.

Changing the way people think is really what it's about.

I remember hearing a girl (4-5) say "Mommy look at the fat lady" and point at my friend. Her mother told her "that's not a nice thing to say, she's a person just like you". Niether of them were fat.

Wouldn't it be nice if Ad Counsul did a spot for kids about "all shapes and sizes".


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## BeaBea (May 15, 2006)

I have to say that if it came to a black or white choice I would have to describe my personal stance as 'Self Acceptance' rather than 'Size Acceptance' 

I have so many friends who are thinner than me who also feel rejected by the majority of society. It might be because they're no longer 22 and their wisdom and experience is showing in the lines on their their face, it might be because they've had children and the skin on their tummy is no longer as tight as a drum, might even be because their beauty is too original to fit into the bland prettiness that the industry demands of its models. 

I know a lot of people lash out and say hurtful things about fat people because they feel so disenfranchised about where they themselves fit in. I'm NOT excusing them, but it seems to me that if we could ALL feel a bit better about ourselves and knew we were valued regardless of our appearance the world would be a better place all round. 

Here in the UK there is very little in the way of actual organised activism. I try to support initiatives whenever I can but I also do what what I can personally on a one to one level to educate people to size/self acceptance. Being a woman of around 460lbs I am a real rarity this side of the Atlantic but I try to demonstrate that I am energetic and self motivated to try to dispell the fat=lazy myth. I hope the fact I run a successful business dispells the fat=stupid myth (but that ones more of a stretch for me ) 

Loving this thread! 

Tracey 

www.beabea.co.uk


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## Observer (May 15, 2006)

As usual I wind up agreeing with Sandie. My activism dosn't stop with compliments for lovely and large ladies, but I've made a point of doing so for decades. Its deliberate for the very reason another poster stated - I know that, like the chubby child, they aren't likely getting their fair share.

I do NOT, however, do it by referring to any aspect of their anatomy or giving the impression that I am "hitting" on them. First it woiuld be rude and secondly my wife, who very nicely illustrates the sincerity of my preference, is frequently within earshot. Nearly all accept my remarks in the spirit I give them, with a smile or gracious thank you. NEVER, as occurred with Vince, has anyone volunteered to me their dress size to contradict my view!

It is to me outrageous that women such as the model he encountered would regard being a mere size 18 as proof of their being unattractuve. It also, to me, validates the personal activism I practice and wish others like me would. 

For the record, I do agree that true activism requires more. As far back as 1972 I steadfastly refused to sign a health insurance contract where an insurance company was refusing to include the SSBBW wife of one of the employees becuse of her size - eventually they elected to include her. Over the years I've done a variety of such acts - including writing numerous hopefully size positive and esteem-building stories in the Dimensions library.

It would be nice if more FA's would be activists as well. We know what we are, there is noting wrong with it, and it therefore logically follows that we should be open and practice the courage of our preferences.

But is acknowleging beauty where you find it a form of activism? I think so - and will continue doing so,.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 15, 2006)

> Chimpi said:
> 
> 
> > You had my mind straying off and thought up this scenario:
> ...


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 15, 2006)

I'd say it depends how much you like someone's personality.


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## Chimpi (May 15, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> Seeing someone across a crowded room and finding them attractive is romantic stuff. Meeting said person and finding out that they have qualities you like is even better. My question is: Do those qualities seem likable because of the original desire. When people get to know each other and form a relationship it begins on mutual attraction, it survives and lasts when you come to "like" the other person for more than their appearance. But once the attraction starts to simmer down do you still like that person's personality in the same way? In other words, once the all consuming lust is gone will you still find the qualities you thought you liked still likable...or do they become annoying because there isn't that desire to back them up any more?



Touche and good point. But, the first thought that popped into my mind is, are you sure you truly ever fell for that person and their personality? If you're just going along with something about their personality and they make up for it in looks, then it is not something that you're going to temper for forever. If Michelle thinks Gary is the hottest guy on the planet, and finds out that he is exactly what she wants, except that Gary eats his food sitting upside down, it is not so bad at first, you're right, because he's the hottest guy on the planet. Once she realizes that he is hers, and there to stay, that spark settles down, and he's still the hottest guy, but it's more like "I love you, sexy man" rather then "OH MY F****** GAWSH!!!!!!", you know? Once she realizes that, she may get annoyed at the fact that he eats his food upside down. That's what you're saying.
What I'm saying is, did you really, truly meet the right person in the first place? Or was it just physical attraction on the front-side the entire time?

Or did I just completely, and time-defyingly mimick what you were saying?


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## EtobicokeFA (May 15, 2006)

I hope you guys don't mind if I play catch up here.

Firstly, I agree that if all a FA does is date BBWS, we should not call what he is doing activitism. However, if his attraction to BBWs inspires him to do actual Fat Activism, then I have no problem with that. 

Secondly, I don't think we should get ourselves hanged up on terms. To be fat acceptance, self acceptance the important thing is that we that build up our self acceptance. 

For me I been to dispell myths fat=lazy and fat=unhealth myths for a long time. I get alot of people who can't believe you can eat health, execrise and still be over 300. 

On the question of physical attraction vs. being attracted to the person. I agree until we know about the person, all we can usually go on is what a person look like. But, I also agree, that in any relationship you should be basis on being attracted to the person, because physical characteriscs can change. The question is, as long as you attracted to the person, what is wrong with being physical attracted to the person as well?


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 15, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Firstly, I agree that if all a FA does is date BBWS, we should call what he is doing activitism. However, if his attraction to BBWs inspires him to do actual Fat Activism, then I have no problem with that.



Okay, just because someone you're dating has a trait, you're an activist for that? So a guy that beats the crap out of his BBW girlfriend and calls her names is a fat activist? No. Noooo. No, sir.

I don't think you have to be an activist if you're dating someone with a unique trait. I wouldn't expect someone I'm dating to be a GLBTQ activist, but if they were, that'd be groovy!


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## EtobicokeFA (May 15, 2006)

Tina said:


> Reading this reminds me of the Black Power movement of the 1970s, of which the "Black is Beautiful" message became big. I'd love to see something like that only with fat, but I don't see it happening.
> 
> If you're black, there's not much you can do about it, and so one must come to accept it and embrace it as your heritage, as your race, as a beautiful thing, and not buy into the old mindsets, prejudices and sterotypes, in spite of all of the historic messags to the conrary.
> 
> ...



People don't believe you can be born to be fat, because they don't believe that it natural to being fat. People believe in that outside of a birth defect, that body is designed to thin, give or take a few pounds. We are here because, of the greatest standing myth of all. "If people are fat, it because they are lazy food addicts?" And, that is the myth we need to tackle.


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## EtobicokeFA (May 15, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Okay, just because someone you're dating has a trait, you're an activist for that? So a guy that beats the crap out of his BBW girlfriend and calls her names is a fat activist? No. Noooo. No, sir.
> 
> I don't think you have to be an activist if you're dating someone with a unique trait. I wouldn't expect someone I'm dating to be a GLBTQ activist, but if they were, that'd be groovy!



Sorry, early in the morning I am good proof reading. It should not considered.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 15, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Sorry, early in the morning I am good proof reading. It should not considered.



Fair enough. I think if a guy doesn't HIDE his preferences, though, that is activism. IE, someone makes a fat crack, and a person says, "Well, I find fat people attractive." Very cool.


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

> I've been thinking a lot about fat acceptance, and how a majority of the "movement' is tied up in sexual attraction. Perhaps I have that impression because I get most, if not all, of my acceptance interaction here at Dims, and Conrad has stated before that one of his goals here was interaction between FA and BBW.



I don't think it is accurate to say that a majority of the movement is tied up in sexual attraction. I think that the people who only frequent this site have an inaccurate picture of the state of the movement as a whole.

A couple of years ago, a group here in Austin got language added to the University of Texas hiring policies to include size and weight. So at the University of Texas, it is no longer legal to discriminate against potential employees based on weight. This is an activist achievement which has nothing to do with sexual attraction. 

Very little of an activist nature is discussed here. Not everyone is interested in activism, which is fine - I don't think that everyone has to be an activist (though I'd sure like it if they were). Most of the most prominent people in the movement, for whatever reason, do not post here. 

If you are interested in activism, I'd encourage you to visit Big Fat Blog, where activism is pretty much all they talk about.

http://www.bigfatblog.com/


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## EtobicokeFA (May 15, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Fair enough. I think if a guy doesn't HIDE his preferences, though, that is activism. IE, someone makes a fat crack, and a person says, "Well, I find fat people attractive." Very cool.



Yes, stand up for your preferences, and for the fat person to a great help to the cause.


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> And if you pay attention, you will see that many fat acceptance events happen at hotels. HMMMM



You know, I guess this depends on what you consider a "fat acceptance event." Many BBW dances happen in hotels (not sure how many other places there are to have a dance. It probably depends on your area). I'm not sure I am prepared to label a dance as a "fat acceptance event" though. It is a dance. Not that there's anything wrong with that.!


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

TallFatSue said:


> As to fat activism, methinks the best form of fat activism is simply to set good examples. If each of us can improve another's opinion of fat people, then in the aggregate we can move mountains. Although my boss hasn't come right out and said it, I'm pretty sure that when I was promoted to office manager, it wasn't "despite" the fact that I'm fat. My fat was irrelevant, and I was apparently the best candidate for the job.



Sue, I think that it is great that you got your job, and that you were the best candidate, and that your fat had nothing to do with it. But there are far, far too many of us for whom this is not true. This story is not going to be very comforting to those out there who are very well qualified and keep applying and applying for jobs and being refused. Nor do I think it is particularly fair for those of us who are fat to have to take a very low paying job and work our way up within the company when thin people with equal, or even worse, qualifications do not have to do this.

As a fat person I know I have to work harder than a thin person just to stay on the same level. My attendance has to be better. I have to be better dressed. If laid off, it will probably take me 2-3 times longer to find a job than a thin person of equivalent qualifications. I think this is not right, and something that needs to be changed. Just my opinion, though. 

Sure there are people who know I am not lazy. Something strange happens when people become friends with fat people though. All of a sudden we aren't fat, or they "don't think of us as fat." This allows them to handle the contradiction between reality and stereotype.


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> Every movement has it's pivotal leader or focal point. I don't care for the analogy between the civil rights movement and the SA movement so much because in my mind it waters down both. But I am borrowing the Civil Rights movement for a moment for a demonstration. The civil rights movement had the black panthers, Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. Who will be that for Size Acceptance? Who will refuse to move to the back of the bus? And more importantly, are we READY for that or are we, as a movement, still too scattered in our focus?



Jennifer Portnick, in her way, "refused to move to the back of the bus." I don't think we were ready, though.


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I wish I knew Donna. One of my biggest pet peeves of late has been the new seat belt laws. You can get pulled over by the cops *just* for not having a seatbelt on. I don't have a car so I live off of the kindness of strangers and nine times out of ten I cannot comply with the law. I can't wear the seatbelt, but I will get fined/ticketed anyway even though the law is something I cannot physically obey. I can buy an extender or two but still it's no guarantee that they will work in the car that comes to pick me up.
> 
> Who do you go to to get a round of support for something to be done? Who do you write to? How do you get people to care about this or to be a united voice to bring about change? It's times like these when maybe a slogan or a button would be appropriate but I really don't see any place or any organization with enough support people wise or financially to do anything but come here to Dimensions, complain and debate. Our lives are at steak in this issue of seatbelt safely.
> 
> Not to mention the safety of an air bag on a fat person. I've always wondered. Airbags are tested on average citizens. We already know that they kill children and people who are petite but what would the pressure of an fully inflated airbag do to a 360 pound woman with size DDD? Could it collapse her chest cavity and cut off the oxygen supply? Smash in her face and break all of her facial bones? I'm a weirdo who sits up at night and thinks about this kind of stuff.  But I feel all alone in that I don't know how or where to go to raise these issues.



Elizabeth Fisher has been working on this for years and years. Since 1999, in fact. She continues to work on it despite little interest from the fat community.

http://www.ifisher.com/honda.asp


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## EtobicokeFA (May 15, 2006)

Donnaalicious said:


> You bring in an interesting point, though. While we should be doing all that we can do from a personal level, what about the bigger picture? What about those slogans, posters and marches? Is there a large scale political organization out there that supports people of size? We've already established that Dimensions is about social interaction, the FAs Playboy if you will. And while Playboy has some political edge to it, it's about lifestyle. Ditto with NAAFA. NAAFA, to me, seems conflicted and confused in their stance. I am not putting them down when I say this, please don't get me wrong. IMHO they appear as having two minds; one dedicated to activism in the form I am suggesting here and one dedicated to the lifestyle and social interaction.
> 
> We're multi-dimensional people and we need a mutli-dimensional movement.
> 
> Every movement has it's pivotal leader or focal point. I don't care for the analogy between the civil rights movement and the SA movement so much because in my mind it waters down both. But I am borrowing the Civil Rights movement for a moment for a demonstration. The civil rights movement had the black panthers, Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. Who will be that for Size Acceptance? Who will refuse to move to the back of the bus? And more importantly, are we READY for that or are we, as a movement, still too scattered in our focus?



I do admit that I am also a bit confused by NAAFA's stance, sometimes too. And, I remember that we had a discussion on the site about if NAAFA should combine its political and social arms, or if it's better off giving up one to focus on the other. 

Another point about focus, I have also noticed that we also have many different size acceptance groups that seem to not be able to agree with each other. For example, ISAA, FAT!SO?? and Marylin Wann's group. 

I definitely agree that we need a Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks for Size Acceptance. But, IMHO we need to define in stone where stand.


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I don't think you have to be an activist if you're dating someone with a unique trait. I wouldn't expect someone I'm dating to be a GLBTQ activist, but if they were, that'd be groovy!




I like to think I am a GLBTQ activist, at least to some small extent. I am a member of the HRC and respond to their email requests for me to email senators/congressmen on different issues. I wish we had something like that in the fat community.

Although I wish to make it clear I am not dating you! That'd be incest.


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## moonvine (May 15, 2006)

ripley said:


> Lots of great responses!
> 
> 
> I agree that acceptance is very important as well, but it bothers me that maybe just the attractive fat garner the benefits, whereas anything activism establishes benefits all.
> ...




The front page of BFB is discussing this at this very moment:



> To me, the importance of this study lies in the fact that it might offer some insight into why the fat acceptance/liberation movement is not more widespread among fat people. I've often thought that if we could all stop hating ourselves for just a few minutes, maybe we could get some work done around here.
> 
> The article does have a few good points, however. It mentions flat-out that fat people earn less income, and face discrimination in healthcare. Now if we could just do something about all that self-hatred that keeps us from losing weight, then we can finally be worthy of being treated like humans.



http://www.bigfatblog.com/


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## MissToodles (May 15, 2006)

okay so when I compliment an inner city, economically "disadvanataged" child on their work it's activisim apparently because they don't receive affirmation from the rest of the world. Okay, let's just all compliment each other and call it a day.


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## NFA (May 15, 2006)

Simply being an FA isn't even remotely activism. Its sexual desire. There's nothing wrong with sexual desire, but you can't call yourself an activist just because you think someone is cute. The problem is that is as far as most FA's ever bother going if they aren't couched into actively rejecting fat acceptance in favor of oppositional view points that have been shamefully promoted by organizations opperating under the mantle of fat acceptance. But no, checking out a cute girl isn't political activism. Its checking out a cute girl. I MIGHT allow that public displays of affection with a fat partner at least have something of a minor political dimension to them, but its minor at best. Certainly nothing on par with gay couples or interracial couples would be doing through the same act, but a very minor something. But I still wouldn't call that activism.

What could be done is engaging FA's to recognize their personal stake in the political aims of fat acceptance and encouraging them to participate in actual activism and to have the guts to stand up for fat acceptance and promote it instead of undermining it as some do or laying down at the slightest resistance as others do.


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## grey1969 (May 15, 2006)

Here is a theory about how sexual attraction to fat people and fat acceptance could work hand in hand:

Assume that the rough estimate that 10 % of men are FAs(if you include those who prefer a slightly heavy woman in the size 12-14 range this might easily be more like 40-50% total). Now how many prominent men in business or sports, entertainment, etc. marry fat or even slightly heavy women? Very few. More typically, they dump their wife after she has had kids and put on some weight and find a new skinny young trophy wife.

So the people that have the power to shape society are all either not FAs (very unlikely) or there are a significant number of closet FAs mixed in there. Imagine if the airline CEO was an open FA and willing to work to convince his company to give fat people the respect they deserve. SO if more men in positions of power and influence were open and honest about their desires, things could be a whole lot different. People here can wish all we want for things to be different but we don't call the shots.

Of course it is pretty straightforward to look at the statistics and say: 60 % of Americans are overweight (according to arbitrary societal standards). Simple, just have all the fat people band together and bring Corporate America to its knees. It doesn't seem likely this is going to happen any time soon.

So the Admirer Activism might be less in the form of what an Admirer would do to help fat people with their self-acceptance but in somehow promoting the concept of as being perfectly legitimate, so as to help convince other FAs to come out in the open. When Jamie Fox goes on TV and says he prefers thick women, that is activism and it is very significant. If we had many more instances like that from prominent people we may actually start generating some momentum.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 15, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I like to think I am a GLBTQ activist, at least to some small extent. I am a member of the HRC and respond to their email requests for me to email senators/congressmen on different issues. I wish we had something like that in the fat community.
> 
> Although I wish to make it clear I am not dating you! That'd be incest.



Well, you ARE from Texas.


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## Jes (May 15, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Assume that the rough estimate that 10 % of men are FAs(if you include those who prefer a slightly heavy woman in the size 12-14 range this might easily be more like 40-50% total). Now how many prominent men in business or sports, entertainment, etc. marry fat or even slightly heavy women? Very few. More typically, they dump their wife after she has had kids and put on some weight and find a new skinny young trophy wife.
> 
> .



Where's my gin and tonic? *hiccup*


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 16, 2006)

Your assessment is reasonable, however, many of the women at those events have the same mindset as the men. While there are some who are at the BBW events who want long term relationships, many of the women do not. 





Tiger's_Lily said:


> *
> Ripley, I do agree with you about it coming down to sexual attraction above all, for a hell of a lot of guys out there. Maybe not all, but I think I'd be making a safe bet on probably 80% of the guys who come here, do so simply for sexual reasons.
> 
> I've just about given up ever finding a guy who wanted to be with me simply because he likes 'me', not because he gets a hard on because of the size of my boobs or whatever!
> ...


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## rainyday (May 16, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> SO if more men in positions of power and influence were open and honest about their desires, things could be a whole lot different.



I think this is the best shot there is for advancing fat acceptance, but I'd replace "men in positions of power" with "influential people." When a famous guest turns to Leno and implies the fat joke in the monologue was wrong, when stars drape fat women on their arm and when other "influencers" at all levels express support for all sizes and others hear it, there will be movement. 

There was another thread where this was discussed a while back. I think it was started by BB, but I can't remember the title.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Hi

I think that the social and the political arm of Fat Acceptance needs to be almost 100% separated. More effort should be given to 100% activist efforts.

As long as the public sees Fat Acceptance as Dances and Pool Parties it will never be taken seriously.

Dances and Parties should be used as fund raiser events like other social action groups use them for.


William







EtobicokeFA said:


> I do admit that I am also a bit confused by NAAFA's stance, sometimes too. And, I remember that we had a discussion on the site about if NAAFA should combine its political and social arms, or if it's better off giving up one to focus on the other.
> 
> Another point about focus, I have also noticed that we also have many different size acceptance groups that seem to not be able to agree with each other. For example, ISAA, FAT!SO?? and Marylin Wann's group.
> 
> I definitely agree that we need a Dr. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks for Size Acceptance. But, IMHO we need to define in stone where stand.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Hi 

Big Fat Blog censures too many contributions.

I would suggest Fat!So?

http://www.fatso.com/gabcafe/tmp.html

or even NAAFA

http://www.naafa.org/discussion/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=5

Conrad here is a *very very fair* person in regards to freedom of thought, not everyone can do as well as he has done. Fat Acceptance should not be centered on a site controlled by one person's whims.

William






moonvine said:


> I don't think it is accurate to say that a majority of the movement is tied up in sexual attraction. I think that the people who only frequent this site have an inaccurate picture of the state of the movement as a whole.
> 
> A couple of years ago, a group here in Austin got language added to the University of Texas hiring policies to include size and weight. So at the University of Texas, it is no longer legal to discriminate against potential employees based on weight. This is an activist achievement which has nothing to do with sexual attraction.
> 
> ...


----------



## moonvine (May 16, 2006)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> Big Fat Blog censures too many contributions.
> 
> ...



I prefer BFB to either of those sites. Marilyn Wann's brand of activism doesn't float my boat. I don't think it is appropriate to go to WLS informational meetings and dance around in bikinis and distribute anti WLS pamphlets. This is just my opinion, and those who disagree are welcome to participate of course.

As for NAAFA, I don't care for members only sites which you have to pay to join. When NAAFA made the decision to close the boards to members only, I made the decision to stop supporting them financially. Again, just my opinion.

I'm not sure what you are talking about as far as BFB "censuring contributions." It is a blog. The bloggers there blog about what they feel is important, as do any other bloggers. I have sent in articles they have used, and articles they have not. It doesn't bother me that they choose not to use some of them.


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## JoyJoy (May 16, 2006)

moonvine said:


> You know, I guess this depends on what you consider a "fat acceptance event." Many BBW dances happen in hotels (not sure how many other places there are to have a dance. It probably depends on your area). I'm not sure I am prepared to label a dance as a "fat acceptance event" though. It is a dance. Not that there's anything wrong with that.!


 
I believe such events could be labeled as *fat acceptance*, but on a very personal level. For many, it's their first outlet for *coming out*, so to speak, and learning to be proud of themselves as they are. It's part of the path to self-acceptance for many, and has helped once-shy, insecure people come out of their shells. These are also places where those who prefer larger people can go and begin to feel comfortable with expressing their preference openly...hopefully leading to complete comfort, eventually. 

Like anything else, though, it has several down sides. There will be people who will abuse it, such as the men who attend simply looking for a big girl to get into bed, perpetuating the myth that *Fat girls are easy*. The fact that most of these events are held in hotels is unfortunate, as it adds to that idea. I'm sure the reason behind this is that there is a lack of affordable space elsewhere. 

I know that BBW dances aren't for everyone, but they do serve an important purpose for those who choose to benefit from them.


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## missaf (May 16, 2006)

I don't think this board as a whole is about activism. While we have threads about it, we don't really discuss the activism with everything we do. It's a component here, but the friendships we have through attraction shouldn't be considered activism.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Hi 

I have been censured on BFB there and I have never flamed anyone, just put up a good debate always in a civil tone. Paul took issue to this and blocked me. In the several sites that I help moderate I have never cut off rational discussion even if I do not agree with the point.

Both NAAFA and Fat!So? have allowed freethinking and only have ejected trolls.


William




moonvine said:


> I prefer BFB to either of those sites. Marilyn Wann's brand of activism doesn't float my boat. I don't think it is appropriate to go to WLS informational meetings and dance around in bikinis and distribute anti WLS pamphlets. This is just my opinion, and those who disagree are welcome to participate of course.
> 
> As for NAAFA, I don't care for members only sites which you have to pay to join. When NAAFA made the decision to close the boards to members only, I made the decision to stop supporting them financially. Again, just my opinion.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are talking about as far as BFB "censuring contributions." It is a blog. The bloggers there blog about what they feel is important, as do any other bloggers. I have sent in articles they have used, and articles they have not. It doesn't bother me that they choose not to use some of them.


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## moonvine (May 16, 2006)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> I have been censured on BFB there and I have never flamed anyone, just put up a good debate always in a civil tone. Paul took issue to this and blocked me. In the several sites that I help moderate I have never cut off rational discussion even if I do not agree with the point.
> 
> ...



NAAFA ejected everyone who didn't pay to become a member - otherwise I would still be posting there. I've no idea what they do now, but I would be in agreement with your statement that during the time the boards were open to the public, if people followed the rules there they did not get banned. They did ban plenty of people who woudl argue that point, though.

I don't care for Fat!So?

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with BFB. In my experience, people who follow the rules there do not get banned. I support any boardowners right to make whatever rules they want for their board. Then we can all make a choice whether to post there or not. 

These are BFB's guidelines:

http://www.bigfatblog.com/about/community/

I personally like these guidelines. Others will not.

I've found most fat sites to be very lenient and give people multiple chances. I post in other places where they will ban you very, very fast if you don't follow the rules. I have managed to post there successfully for years because I follow the rules even if I do not like them.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Hi Moonvine

My conversation was not out of line, I just calmly stuck to my point and always had a response to prove my point. Funny that of the people debating on that topic, I was the only one punished, the rest are still debating there. Anyway if Paul is going to let personal whims decide who is to post there then BFB is not the place for true trading of ideas on Fat Acceptance.

William





moonvine said:


> NAAFA ejected everyone who didn't pay to become a member - otherwise I would still be posting there. I've no idea what they do now, but I would be in agreement with your statement that during the time the boards were open to the public, if people followed the rules there they did not get banned. They did ban plenty of people who would argue that point, though.
> 
> I don't care for Fat!So?
> 
> ...


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## moonvine (May 16, 2006)

Ok, guess we will have to agree to disagree, then.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Hi Moonvine

Banning flamers, trolls and nasty people is understandable, but banning civil on-topic speech is no help to Fat Acceptance.

William 



moonvine said:


> Ok, guess we will have to agree to disagree, then.


----------



## LJ Rock (May 16, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I think the distinction has to be made as to the difference between flirting and complimenting. With one the person is hoping for a hook up or to get lucky or whatever - they're looking for something in return.
> 
> A compliment is NOT flirting. Teachers and professionals employ the power of a compliment regularly in the lives of children and adults with self esteem issues. As human beings we 'need' this. Every single person on this board needs it. Who among us doesn't want to punch the lights out of a person who puts down a child or ignores him? Without it, or if only stimulated by negative feedback, a child will grow up to be a pretty f*cked up individual and we all know it. So yeah, positive reinforcement, compliments are activism in my view. Yeah, there are people out there who are merely looking for a lay and that can scare us away from acknowledging how good it feels to receive praise. But it is important for all of us even as adults and there's nothing wrong with needing some stroking from time to time. It's human.




Once again, I gotta say AMEN!


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## moonvine (May 16, 2006)

William said:


> Hi Moonvine
> 
> Banning flamers, trolls and nasty people is understandable, but banning civil on-topic speech is no help to Fat Acceptance.
> 
> William



A board owner has the right to ban anyone and everyone he or she sees fit. I personally think BFB is the leading, most on topic fat acceptance board out there, and it doesn't allow diet talk. Therefore I choose to support it.

But I'm not going to sit and argue this on another board. I urge everyone to make up their own minds which boards they wish to post on.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Well

The good thing is that people can read Alas, a blog and some other places for talk that they won't see on BFB. I think that Dimensions has the social side covered 

William





moonvine said:


> A board owner has the right to ban anyone and everyone he or she sees fit. I personally think BFB is the leading, most on topic fat acceptance board out there, and it doesn't allow diet talk. Therefore I choose to support it.
> 
> But I'm not going to sit and argue this on another board. I urge everyone to make up their own minds which boards they wish to post on.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 16, 2006)

I guess what Moonvine is trying to say: Quit squalling about it and let everyone else make up their own minds.


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## William (May 16, 2006)

Hi Sadeian

Well the best thing I could do is just give more support to other Blogs with better practices, which I do.

William




TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I guess what Moonvine is trying to say: Quit squalling about it and let everyone else make up their own minds.


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## Elfcat (May 17, 2006)

I think there's a substantial difference between social functions and one-to-one interactions in the field. Social functions are structured and planning is involved in the kind of themes to be presented, including possibly some explicitly activist stuff.

There is a certain amount of liberation required to express one's true feelings if they've been hammered down for a long time. There is a certain amount of experience required to know that the idea once planted in another's mind is out of the teller's hands and will take its own path.


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## olivefun (May 17, 2006)

BFB is not accepting new registrants.



> Registration is Closed
> Registration for BFB is closed until further notice. A new registration system will debut when it's ready to roll.



http://www.bigfatblog.com/register/


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## moonvine (May 17, 2006)

olivefun said:


> BFB is not accepting new registrants.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bigfatblog.com/register/



Yes, it is, but you can still read it, and as soon as the new system is ready you can register.


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## eightyseven (May 18, 2006)

In response to the original post... I must agree entirely.

FA's like myself admire fat women... simple fact. By calling the admiration of fat women "fat activism," that means there is an initial assumption that fat men/women are at a societal disadvantage BECAUSE THEY CANNOT ATTRACT OTHERS BASED UPON APPEARANCE... which we all know is completely untrue... for I, like many of us, think fat women are incredibly attractive.

Activism would be creating awareness of and attempting to change the society we have that generally works to the disadvantage of fat people specifically because they are fat... and despite the fact that fat or "medically overweight" people make up a HUGE percentage of that same society.


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## Elfcat (May 18, 2006)

eightyseven said:


> By calling the admiration of fat women "fat activism," that means there is an initial assumption that fat men/women are at a societal disadvantage BECAUSE THEY CANNOT ATTRACT OTHERS BASED UPON APPEARANCE... which we all know is completely untrue... for I, like many of us, think fat women are incredibly attractive.



Though blatant assumptions of non-attractiveness seem to be retreating somewhat, it does seem as if I hear a number of stories about fat people acting as if they don't deserve what others do. While attempting to remind those who act in such ways that their rights are equal to anyone else's may not be full-scale activism as such, it certainly could be verbal first aid.

I do think the way Vince went at it from his description in the other thread might have been a little heavy-handed and absolutist. Some people will find it easier to accept the idea that they're just attractive than that they're the most attractive. I don't recall very often telling a woman "You're the most attractive woman here." It puts them in a position in which they'll feel vain if they agree.

I mean, obviously, Kat up on the veranda standing before me in her wedding dress, by Goddess she WAS the most beautiful woman there! But that's (one would only hope) not a situation a guy finds himself in every day.


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## Elfcat (May 18, 2006)

Tina said:


> Reading this reminds me of the Black Power movement of the 1970s, of which the "Black is Beautiful" message became big. I'd love to see something like that only with fat, but I don't see it happening.
> 
> If you're black, there's not much you can do about it, and so one must come to accept it and embrace it as your heritage, as your race, as a beautiful thing, and not buy into the old mindsets, prejudices and sterotypes, in spite of all of the historic messags to the conrary.



Ahhhh, but there WERE things they supposedly could do about it - nose surgery, hair lyeing, even things which cross over into our area like liposuction (see my note a few days ago about Boot's Riley's new song _Tiffany Hall_). And one of my favorite speeches by Malcolm specifically addressed the whole issue that making you hate who and what you are is a critical element of oppression.


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## LillyBBBW (May 18, 2006)

Elfcat said:


> Ahhhh, but there WERE things they supposedly could do about it - nose surgery, hair lyeing, even things which cross over into our area like liposuction (see my note a few days ago about Boot's Riley's new song _Tiffany Hall_). And one of my favorite speeches by Malcolm specifically addressed the whole issue that making you hate who and what you are is a critical element of oppression.



Those are merely cosmetic elements that have nothing at all to do with being black. That's like saying tanning, perms and breast augmentation are things that white people can do to disassociate themselves from being white. Getting a nose job, a relaxer and $25,000 worth of liposuction will surely not fool anyone into thinking I'm not black.


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## olivefun (May 18, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> Getting a nose job, a relaxer and $25,000 worth of liposuction will surely not fool anyone into thinking I'm not black.





This is the spot I would probably make a Michael Jackson joke.

Ah, He already *is* a joke... I will let you imagine one, instead.


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## BeaBea (May 18, 2006)

Elfcat said:


> .. one of my favorite speeches by Malcolm specifically addressed the whole issue that making you hate who and what you are is a critical element of oppression.



Hi Elfcat, 

can you direct me to a transcript of the speech? I'd be interested to read it. Thank you.

Oh, and what you said about Kat was wonderful! Lucky you/Lucky her 

Tracey 

www.beabea.co.uk


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## Elfcat (May 18, 2006)

BeaBea said:


> Hi Elfcat,
> 
> can you direct me to a transcript of the speech? I'd be interested to read it. Thank you.
> 
> ...



Valentine's Day 1965

http://www.oopau.org/4.html

"You know yourself -- and we have been a people who hated our African characteristics. We hated our hair, we hated the shape of our nose -- we wanted one of those long, dog-like noses, you know. Yeah. We hated the color of our skin, hated the blood of Africa that was in our veins. And in hating our features and our skin and our blood, why, we had to end up hating ourselves."


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## Elfcat (May 18, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> Those are merely cosmetic elements that have nothing at all to do with being black. That's like saying tanning, perms and breast augmentation are things that white people can do to disassociate themselves from being white. Getting a nose job, a relaxer and $25,000 worth of liposuction will surely not fool anyone into thinking I'm not black.



My point was that those are the kinds of products which get made whenever prejudice is in force. Of course they don't really work, but the marketers try to brainwash customers into thinking they will.


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## RyanFA (May 19, 2006)

ripley said:


> if you are true to yourself you will go out and get what you want, and not what society tells you you should want.



Great Quote! Wish everybody was true to themselves. The world would be a much happier place.


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