# Too Fat to Fly



## Alzison (May 12, 2011)

Certainly nothing new here (see: Kevin Smith etc etc), but was wondering if anyone else saw the most recent story in the Huffington Post/AOL Travel, MSNBC on fat people being humiliated/singled out on airlines (specifically Southwest)?

http://news.travel.aol.com/2011/05/12/kenlie-tiggeman-too-fat-to-fly-on-southwest/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42996971/ns/travel-news/

The only thing that actually made me take pause with this article was the closing:
_But there has been some good to come out of all of this. On her blog, Tiggeman wrote an open letter to fitness guru and New Orleans native Richard Simmons, since his videos played such a large role in her weight loss. She said she wanted to use her free voucher to visit his studio in Beverly Hills, and somehow Simmons saw the letter and wrote to her personally and asked her to work out with him_

She's already lost 120 lbs, but clearly we can feel resolution in the fact that she can get an airline voucher and a visit with Richard Simmons after this. :doh:Because as much as she says the airline needs to be more sensitive, what everyone really wants is for the fatties to lose weight and for this to be a non-issue.


----------



## Dorktacular (May 12, 2011)

You know, if the airlines suddenly started discriminating against other groups, there would be public outrage. If a guy with a turban and a beard gets a pat down, people scream "profiling"! If the airlines were to suddenly start making short people use booster seats for "safety" reasons, there would be more public outrage. 

Sadly, it's still ok to discriminate against us fat people. After all, we're not really people, are we? We're just large eye sores and inconveniences. You're right - they don't want to accept us or accomodate us; they just want us to go away. Apparently, the airlines just don't need our money.


----------



## StridentDionysus (May 13, 2011)

I wanted to start a thread about another subject within air travel, it's kind of related so I'll talk about it here. If it's not as related as I think then let me know and I'll start a new thread. I'll add to the original discussion first though.

I'm familiar with Southwest's policy (even though I've never flown with them and I never will) and I think it is very good that they actually have a policy for "customers of size" (wtf is with that btw? Everyone has a size. It should be called "Bigger passenger" or something :doh. The problem is that the policy seems to be the reason why Southwest seems to be so "anti-fat" instead of the other way around.

The policy states that a "customer of size" *should* "proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel". That little sentence is (to me) what gives Southwest's employees the "right" to be mean to "customers of size" that didn't do as they should (as they "should" according to SWA of course). In the end I think the policy is good but the application is very poor, insensitive and they have to get rid of that "customers of size should..." BS.

Now, to what I wanted to talk about. It's just a little question:

Has anyone noticed how even in business class a fat traveler would still encounter some major problems? 

I'm planning a trip to Europe and looking at my options. I don't have that many and I'm not even that big (5'10" and around 350lb). Even if I wait and save more money to cough up the absurd prices of business class I'd still have to pick which airline very carefully. According to a very nice lady working for Air France her airline (that is Air France, KLM and Delta) is out because "Even in business class the trays have very little space. You wouldn't be able to deploy them". She was awesome enough to suggest British Airways and it seems that they are my only option (I don't have a US visa so I haven't looked at airlines based there).

I find it completely unacceptable that at an average of 3900 dollars there is only *one* airline that could fit a man my size in business class.


----------



## Shoshybear (May 13, 2011)

I personally don't mind that the airlines require bigger people to buy an extra seat, airplanes are small spaces, if you are going to take up two seats, you should pay for two seats! you should think of it as paying extra for more comfort, would you rather they attempted to just squish you into one seat or kicked you off the plane? 

however, i don't agree with the way they go about this. fat people should know whether or not they can fit in an airplane seat, it should be a disclaimer before you finish purchasing your tickets online and if you do it in person. if someone purchases only one seat and they require two, they should be pulled aside and told politely.


----------



## gangstadawg (May 13, 2011)

Shoshybear said:


> I personally don't mind that the airlines require bigger people to buy an extra seat, airplanes are small spaces, if you are going to take up two seats, you should pay for two seats! you should think of it as paying extra for more comfort, would you rather they attempted to just squish you into one seat or kicked you off the plane?
> 
> however, i don't agree with the way they go about this. fat people should know whether or not they can fit in an airplane seat, it should be a disclaimer before you finish purchasing your tickets online and if you do it in person. if someone purchases only one seat and they require two, they should be pulled aside and told politely.



FYI you dont have to be fat to be forced to buy 2 seats. a large person (not in general could be forced to do this. lets say some one built like shaq who is not a small person by any means.


----------



## Alzison (May 14, 2011)

I see the issue in two pieces, like (I think) everyone else here. When I've flown lately, I have chosen airlines that are low-cost enough such that I can buy two seats and even avoid the potential issues. It really restricts my ability to fly and do I wish there was some ability for me to buy one larger seat at a somewhat higher (but not 2x) cost? Yes. But it's not even the flight attendants that I feel squeamish about- it's the people sitting next to me and their disdain and judgement. 

Anyway, yes it's not just about the "are two seats necessary", but about how the situation is handled. I mean, bargaining to have the 3 fat women sit together is like putting children in the corner to punish them. And, obviously, 3 fat people in tiny seats would suffer even more and would have less room. I would think maybe, in that split second, the flight attendant could find a family with a child, who takes up less of their seat, and just even things out. I mean, if you are going to train your staff to call fat people out on these issues, you really need to make this fact public and known in an official capacity. Why not have a sign about ass size, similar to the "does your carry on fit in this box" signs? OK, I'm mostly kidding. There just needs to be a better way to deal with this than shame and public humiliation. 

And to end that article with a jab about something "positive" being that now this woman can finally work out with Richard Simmons makes it clear how the author really feels about the subject in question, don't you think?


----------



## Malutka (May 15, 2011)

I think the issue is not so much with bigger people but rathe with airlines who refuse to accomodate them in order to make a buck. It's easier to blame the fat people instead of the airline industry. Have you noticed how the seats are getting smaller and smaller? Would it be so terribly wrong to have a couple rows with more spacious seats, even at a slightly additional cost? They airplanes usually have rows with extra leg room, would it be so terrible to have a couple rows with extra ass room?

On a similar topic, I had to "buy a bigger plane" because of my size once. I signed up for a flying class and was going to use a Cessna 150 which is a 2-seater. Well, when I was booking the class over the phone, it turned out that I was too heavy for the plane and had to upgrade to Cessna 172 (a 4-seater). That was somewhat embarassing and of course cost me more (I think it was like extra $50 or so), but on the bright side I was able to bring a friend along to take pics.  

Also, I have read somewhere once that the airlines allow about 200lb per passenger (with their luggage) when calculating the take-off weight. I don't know how true it is, but it doesn't seem like much. I weight more than that WITHOUT my luggage.


----------



## LadyDeelicious (May 16, 2011)

I flew from Vegas to Los Angeles a few years ago and having heard about previous instances for fat people I did my research before going to pay for the flight. Through my findings, I learned that on Southwest, if the flight is not sold out that the 2nd seat is refundable (even on non-refundable fares). 

I chose a flight that was in the middle of the day on a Saturday, knowing through my mother who was a travel agent that those are less likely to sell out, and sure enough I submitted for the refund and about 3 weeks later got it.

I do understand them wanting larger people to purchase a 2nd seat. I mean could you imagine if they happened to sell two seats next to each other that were both 400 lb people. Now as for taller passengers, if they are not going into someone else's space then it shouldn't matter. Just like if someone is not so big that they don't go into someone else's space. 

I think of things very considerately. I mean, I pay for a seat and the space of that seat. Someone else invading my space makes for a very uncomfortable flight. I am more than 400 lbs with wide hips, so I would definitely invade someone's space. I do what is necessary.


----------



## Dromond (May 16, 2011)

There is a very practical consideration involved in asking large people (be they fat or not) to buy two seats. Aircraft are fueled with a certain expectation of the weight of passengers. Since aircraft cannot be weighed prior to fueling, they use a formula based on seats sold. Large people fall outside that formula, so they cannot accurately gauge how much fuel to carry. If a large person buys two seats, the formula works again.

Lest you think it's all about profits, it's really about physics. The more fuel you carry, the more the plane weighs, and you have to add more fuel to compensate for the extra weight. It isn't like a car's gas mileage. The fuel needed by weight increases logarithmically, not arithmetically. If they guess wrong, the plane either doesn't have enough fuel, or carries too much fuel and burns more than needed.


----------



## CastingPearls (May 16, 2011)

However, MUCH of it is about profit. Many airlines are ripping out rows of larger seats and putting in rows of smaller seats in spite of the fact that the average American tush is getting larger, so they can have more passengers per flight.


----------



## Dromond (May 16, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> However, MUCH of it is about profit. Many airlines are ripping out rows of larger seats and putting in rows of smaller seats in spite of the fact that the average American tush is getting larger, so they can have more passengers per flight.



Okay, that IS about profit.

But physics still matter.


----------



## Jes (May 16, 2011)

A question: if you don't fit within one standard airplane seat, and you choose not to buy 2 seats together, what would you like to have happen? I'm not lambasting anyone who doesn't fit; rather, I'm asking: what scenario or scenarios would you like to see played out?


----------



## BlueBurning (May 16, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> However, MUCH of it is about profit. Many airlines are ripping out rows of larger seats and putting in rows of smaller seats in spite of the fact that the average American tush is getting larger, so they can have more passengers per flight.



Exactly, despite a growing population seat sizes on airlines have gotten smaller to increase profits.


----------



## Micara (May 16, 2011)

I fly several times a year, and usually use Southwest, and I've never had a problem with them saying anything to me. I have noticed that if the flight is full, usually the seat next to me is the last one to be claimed. I usually try to get on early, pick an empty row with window space, and lean myself up against it. I always try to not touch the other person, but part of that is because I don't like touching people I don't know. 

I have purchased my own seat belt extender and use it every time. I ordered it for $20 off of eBay and I've never had a problem going through security or anything with it. I have one for Southwest and one for other airlines because they use different types. I like it because that way I don't have to draw attention to myself.

I am flying Alaska Airlines in June, but I'm bringing my skinny daughter with me and will put her in the middle seat, so I don't anticipate a problem then.

I'm bigger on top than on the bottom, so technically I _can_ fit in the seat with both arms down. I think that if anything was ever said to me, I would make them let me prove it to them. 

I am 5'2", weigh about 280-290, and wear size 26/28.


----------



## Alzison (May 16, 2011)

Dromond said:


> There is a very practical consideration involved in asking large people (be they fat or not) to buy two seats. Aircraft are fueled with a certain expectation of the weight of passengers. Since aircraft cannot be weighed prior to fueling, they use a formula based on seats sold. Large people fall outside that formula, so they cannot accurately gauge how much fuel to carry. If a large person buys two seats, the formula works again.
> 
> Lest you think it's all about profits, it's really about physics. The more fuel you carry, the more the plane weighs, and you have to add more fuel to compensate for the extra weight. It isn't like a car's gas mileage. The fuel needed by weight increases logarithmically, not arithmetically. If they guess wrong, the plane either doesn't have enough fuel, or carries too much fuel and burns more than needed.





Jes said:


> A question: if you don't fit within one standard airplane seat, and you choose not to buy 2 seats together, what would you like to have happen? I'm not lambasting anyone who doesn't fit; rather, I'm asking: what scenario or scenarios would you like to see played out?



For the record, my point in starting this thread was not to dispute the physics of the "why is it so baaaaad to try to smush a large butt into a tiny seat?" scenario, but more to discuss the subversive nature of that article and much of the commentary on removing that literal physics/size issue from the equation and steering it more toward a message about large size being a bad thing. As I've said, I've bought two seats and definitely am not in denial about the physical reality of not being comfortable in a small space (not to mention the fact that I'm over 6 ft tall, so ain't no way I'm enjoying that flight). I just think the marketing and conversation about how we handle this moving forward needs to be more even-keeled and honest, and less about making a statement (in either direction).


----------



## vardon_grip (May 17, 2011)

Alzison said:


> For the record, my point in starting this thread was not to dispute the physics of the "why is it so baaaaad to try to smush a large butt into a tiny seat?" scenario, but more to discuss the subversive nature of that article and much of the commentary on removing that literal physics/size issue from the equation and steering it more toward a message about large size being a bad thing. As I've said, I've bought two seats and definitely am not in denial about the physical reality of not being comfortable in a small space (not to mention the fact that I'm over 6 ft tall, so ain't no way I'm enjoying that flight). I just think the marketing and conversation about how we handle this moving forward needs to be more even-keeled and honest, and less about making a statement (in either direction).



I don't think the article was subversive. I don't see anywhere in the article that Southwest says that being fat is a bad thing. The article also doesn't say whether or not Ms. Tiggeman would fit in the 17 inch seat. The loss of 120 pounds doesn't mean anything without a starting point or other reference points. You can't tell whether or not Ms. Tiggeman was/is aware of her actual size in reference to Southwest seats. She didn't say that after she was allowed to board, that she did indeed fit in the seat. Southwest may have sensitivity training in place, but can't stop their employees from either making mistakes or worse, being stupid and/or insensitive. It will always be difficult to say, "You can't fit a 20 inch behind into a 17 inch seat". Most people are self conscious about their size and hearing anything about it can make us hyper-sensitive. I'm sure that after 45 minutes of confrontation, BOTH parties are completely frazzled. Unfortunately, there were no impartial witnesses to the incident that were interviewed for the article.

There is a metal rack to measure the size of carry-on luggage next to most, if not all airport gates. If the carry-on doesn't fit, there should be no argument because ...IT DOESN'T FIT. They just tag it and put it aside for under the plane. Luggage doesn't have feelings. It can't be embarrassed. It can't be embarrassed when there is no cause. It can't overreact. It can't let injuries slide. Luggage don't give a sh*t! You can't say the same about people. Too much personal crap gets in the way of things. Southwest does need to stress to its employees to make use of the test seats and to do so without showing any type of prejudice. It would also help if passengers can honest with themselves and their size and be proactive with the restrictions of flying.

http://www.seatguru.com/
Seat Guru lists all the airlines, the planes they use and the width and pitch of the seats. They also show a seating chart for all planes and the best/worst seats to sit in.


----------



## Alzison (May 17, 2011)

vardon_grip said:


> I don't think the article was subversive. I don't see anywhere in the article that Southwest says that being fat is a bad thing.
> 
> There is a metal rack to measure the size of carry-on luggage next to most, if not all airport gates. If the carry-on doesn't fit, there should be no argument because ...IT DOESN'T FIT. They just tag it and put it aside for under the plane. Luggage doesn't have feelings. It can't be embarrassed. It can't be embarrassed when there is no cause. It can't overreact. It can't let injuries slide. Luggage don't give a sh*t! You can't say the same about people. Too much personal crap gets in the way of things. Southwest does need to stress to its employees to make use of the test seats and to do so without showing any type of prejudice. It would also help if passengers can honest with themselves and their size and be proactive with the restrictions of flying.



I was referring to the end note re: "at least something good happened" in regard to her ability to work out with Richard Simmons. And the carry-on test is an argument I already made in a previous reply? Hi? Yeah, I agree.


----------



## Jes (May 17, 2011)

Alzison said:


> For the record, my point in starting this thread was not to dispute the physics of the "why is it so baaaaad to try to smush a large butt into a tiny seat?" scenario, but more to discuss the subversive nature of that article and much of the commentary on removing that literal physics/size issue from the equation and steering it more toward a message about large size being a bad thing. As I've said, I've bought two seats and definitely am not in denial about the physical reality of not being comfortable in a small space (not to mention the fact that I'm over 6 ft tall, so ain't no way I'm enjoying that flight). I just think the marketing and conversation about how we handle this moving forward needs to be more even-keeled and honest, and less about making a statement (in either direction).



Fair enough, and I would agree. I feel that many posts about this topic are not even-keeled and so I wondered what peoples' thought processes were when they encountered this experience or even just thought about it. I know I think one way about the issue, and sometimes I really do just want to try to understand where other people are coming from.


----------



## Jes (May 17, 2011)

Alzison said:


> I was referring to the end note re: "at least something good happened" in regard to her ability to work out with Richard Simmons. .



What interested me about that line is that it was motivated by the passenger's actions, right? SW didn't make her lose weight and they certainly didn't pen her letter to Richard Simmons. I'm sure the passenger said: you know, some good has come of this whole situation.

Now, I can understand that type of thinking hitting you wrong. I'm not a fan, either. It makes me think of whatsherface on Dancing with the Stars. Every time she got a compliment about dancing well or looking great for 62 or whatever, she'd say: Yeah, but I"m not a size 6! Wait 'til then, and I'll be great!

I wanted to slap the sequins off her titties every time she deflected any genuine compliment about something other than the size of her ass. It just sounded so NEUROTIC and embarrassing. Not b/c it was about fat, but b/c it reminded me of that kid in school with no self-confidence who, hearing anything positive, would shut it down immediately. 'No, I'm not funny, you're just saying that.' blah blah blah. It ends up sounding troubled and what's worse, incredibly self-involved. Me me me! Marcia Marcia Marcia! haha. 

So, I understand. Those things always seem to be some annoying tacked-on bullshit at the end of a story, meant to smooth things over and show the error of the fat person's ways. But the truth is--often, that's what the fat person feels; it's not the journalist creating the facts, only the tone of the piece.

But at the same time, it's their choice to be unhappy with themselves for whatever reasons and to express that however they choose. If you're not happy being fat, if you feel that you want to look different or fit into a seat or be less noticeable or anything else, that's your right. You don't owe anyone anything. If I don't like it, I can always change the channel (and I did right-quick!).


----------



## vardon_grip (May 17, 2011)

Alzison said:


> I was referring to the end note re: "at least something good happened" in regard to her ability to work out with Richard Simmons. And the carry-on test is an argument I already made in a previous reply? Hi? Yeah, I agree.





Jes said:


> What interested me about that line is that it was motivated by the passenger's actions, right? SW didn't make her lose weight and they certainly didn't pen her letter to Richard Simmons. *I'm sure the passenger said: you know, some good has come of this whole situation.*



The writer seemed to have a lot of sympathy for Ms. Tiggeman and included a lot of Ms. Tiggeman's personal feelings in the article. In fact, the original article starts out with a wonderful compliment...

_"Kenlie Tiggeman is impressive, to say the least."_

As Jes cited, Ms. Tiggeman was the one who was responsible for contacting Richard Simmons and probably the catalyst for the "some good has come out of this" comment by the writer.

_"But there has been some good to come out of all of this. On her blog, Tiggeman wrote an open letter to fitness guru and New Orleans native Richard Simmons, since his videos played such a large role in her weight loss. She said she wanted to use her free voucher to visit his studio in Beverly Hills, and somehow Simmons saw the letter and wrote to her personally and asked her to work out with him."_

While I don't think the article was impartial (not that needed to be) and that Southwest dropped the ball with this passenger, I do feel that the article wasn't mean or subversive to the fat cause. It was trying to be the opposite. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


----------



## EMH1701 (May 17, 2011)

IMO the airlines are all about price gouging customers.

I did my flying in my childhood and have no desire to fly these days, not until some serious corrections are made in the way people are treated.


----------



## MissAshley (May 18, 2011)

Jes said:


> A question: if you don't fit within one standard airplane seat, and you choose not to buy 2 seats together, what would you like to have happen? I'm not lambasting anyone who doesn't fit; rather, I'm asking: what scenario or scenarios would you like to see played out?



This is a good question.

As a small person myself, I have never had the issue of not fitting into an airplane seat, but even I think they are pretty small. Unfortunately, they probably won't start to make seats/planes larger until they essentially start losing profit due to enough people not buying tickets because they can't fit.


----------



## shinyapple (May 18, 2011)

Jes said:


> Fair enough, and I would agree. I feel that many posts about this topic are not even-keeled and so I wondered what peoples' thought processes were when they encountered this experience or even just thought about it. I know I think one way about the issue, and sometimes I really do just want to try to understand where other people are coming from.



The first weekend SWA began putting this policy in action publicly, I was scheduled to fly to Vegas with my boss. I checked in for the flight and while seated at the gate and the boarding process was beginning, the gate agent called me aside (a whole ten feet from the boarding line) and told me I would have to purchase a second seat. I informed her I would not need one, but was told I would not be allowed to board unless I paid up. I had no option but to do so and was told if the flight was not full, they would refund me upon landing in Vegas.

The flight was nowhere near full, which she should have known. Upon learning of this, both the lead flight attendant and the pilot stood with me in the Vegas airport for a long, drawn-out argument with the customer service manager there. Nothing came of it and I was never refunded. In fact, they attempted to force me to give up my second seat on the return flight. I refused and told them they could have it when I had the cash for it in my hand.

I've purchased second seats on flights since then, but I've never flown SWA since. My weight has gone up and down, but I still would never fly with them. My issue with their policy is that it is subjective. You are asking a gate agent to handle something that requires discretion and tact...not something they are likely trained to have. There were a couple other larger folks on that SWA flight and you could see the tension and fear in their faces, fearing they were about to be approached and addressed within earshot of the boarding line.

BTW...I was the only person addressed and asked to purchase a second seat on that trip. My boss? She borrowed some of my clothing that weekend, so I obviously wasn't the only one who met their criteria.


----------



## Jes (May 18, 2011)

shinyapple said:


> BTW...I was the only person addressed and asked to purchase a second seat on that trip. My boss? She borrowed some of my clothing that weekend, so I obviously wasn't the only one who met their criteria.



That's some good insight and I appreciate you sharing the story. 

Can you think of how an airline could handle this better? And by that I mean: if you were in charge of filling 20-in seats and saw people who looked larger (and, really, you can only see people when they get to the airport, right?) what would you do? I'm not saying there aren't better solutions, but I don't know how I'd go about coming up with them. I think it's worthwhile for us to brainstorm a bit.


----------



## Alzison (May 18, 2011)

in case y'all didn't see:

http://jezebel.com/5803156/

(yes, obv, I get all my news from jezebel )


----------



## shinyapple (May 18, 2011)

Jes said:


> That's some good insight and I appreciate you sharing the story.
> 
> Can you think of how an airline could handle this better? And by that I mean: if you were in charge of filling 20-in seats and saw people who looked larger (and, really, you can only see people when they get to the airport, right?) what would you do? I'm not saying there aren't better solutions, but I don't know how I'd go about coming up with them. I think it's worthwhile for us to brainstorm a bit.



It's definitely a complex issue. People are generally a bit anxious when they travel, even if fitting in a seat isn't a concern for them. Add that issue into the mix and it's inevitable there are going to be conflicts and arguments.

I learned from that experience and now am very diligent about monitoring how full the flights I select are or may become. I purchase a second seat if I am at all concerned about being seated directly next to someone. For me, it's not only about being "called out" as the super fat girl. It's about my comfort as well. 

As for how to handle it...I wish it was as simple as one answer for every situation. I think one step could be a bit of time spent on how to handle addressing a larger passenger while airline employees are being trained. Having it somewhat standardized and a bit of sensitivity training could make a small difference. Perhaps a routine scan of the boarding area at a reasonable amount of time prior to loading by a supervisor, then calling any passengers needing to be asked to a place outside earshot of their flightmates. It's a difficult conversation to have even under the best of conditions.

It's never going to be easy. You can't look at a person and automatically know what the circumference of their body is and whether they have squishy hips or firmer ones, whether they can wear a seat belt or not. Where does the balance between the airlines standardizing the way larger passengers are treated, the airlines providing ample seating for all passengers, and the responsibility of the passengers to know...honestly and truly know for themselves...whether or not they can realistically fit into one seat comfortably and safely? I had to learn to have that honesty for myself. It may end up being that it's our only solution to avoid the stigma and embarrassment of sub-par treatment.


----------



## vardon_grip (May 19, 2011)

Alzison said:


> in case y'all didn't see:
> 
> http://jezebel.com/5803156/
> 
> (yes, obv, I get all my news from jezebel )



Did you feel that this article and video were subversive also?


----------



## TraciJo67 (May 19, 2011)

Micara said:


> I fly several times a year, and usually use Southwest, and I've never had a problem with them saying anything to me. I have noticed that if the flight is full, usually the seat next to me is the last one to be claimed. I usually try to get on early, pick an empty row with window space, and lean myself up against it. I always try to not touch the other person, but part of that is because I don't like touching people I don't know.
> 
> I have purchased my own seat belt extender and use it every time. I ordered it for $20 off of eBay and I've never had a problem going through security or anything with it. I have one for Southwest and one for other airlines because they use different types. I like it because that way I don't have to draw attention to myself.
> 
> ...


 
Micara, the problem with Southwest Airlines is that they don't give customers the opportunity to prove that they can fit into one seat. They don't have to; it's not written into their extremely vague policy. Customers have expressed frustration at not being given this very opportunity -- to prove that they CAN fit, with armrests down, not spilling into the other seat. They really need to consider, given all of the negative press they've been getting, re-writing their policy and not leaving it up to gate agents to "eyeball" customers in order to determine, arbitrarily, if they're going to have to buy two seats. 

I know it's frustrating and embarrassing, but the reality exists that they don't have to accommodate passengers of size and can refuse boarding or make them pay, last minute, for an extra seat (and/or bump them from an already scheduled flight if there isn't an extra seat). What they could do is put a standard seat in a discreet area and ask passengers who haven't already purchased two seats if they want to take the seat test, much like they already do for amusement park rides. Again, I know it's mortifying and intensely frustrating, but unless/until the government steps in and forces airlines to treat ALL passengers respectfully and to make accommodations for larger passengers, they will continue to enforce their arbitrary policies. The best we can probably hope for is that with enough negative press, they'll make them less arbitrary, more open, and a lot more fair. If I were worried about whether I'd fit into a seat, I'd rather take a test at the gate than just cough up the extra.


----------



## Keb (May 19, 2011)

I flew this weekend, requested extenders on each flight, was packed in with the other sardines, and while the seats were uncomfortable (especially on the last flight), I got by just fine. Nobody was rude to me, and nobody asked me to buy another seat. I was on United, btw.


----------



## Jes (May 20, 2011)

shinyapple said:


> As for how to handle it...I wish it was as simple as one answer for every situation. I think one step could be a bit of time spent on how to handle addressing a larger passenger while airline employees are being trained. Having it somewhat standardized and a bit of sensitivity training could make a small difference. Perhaps a routine scan of the boarding area at a reasonable amount of time prior to loading by a supervisor, then calling any passengers needing to be asked to a place outside earshot of their flightmates. It's a difficult conversation to have even under the best of conditions.
> .



I think that education, uniformity and efficiency are definitely things that would help. And, I'm on the fence about the ... I don't want to say staffers shouldn't be sensitive, but it can set up a weird dynamic to see fat as humiliating or embarrassing or stigmatizing to be so individual and sensitive about it. No one, for example, feels embarrassment or shame about whether a suitcase fits in the bin or not. And humans aren't objects, but I do wish there were easier ways of discussing the spatial relaties of bodies. A fact is a fact. I wish everyone could address the issue that way, though I know most can't. It's like the frank discussion of sitting next to the exit door: if needed, can you get up and go over and read the instructions and have the strength to open the door and get out. Yes? No? And people will, hopefully, self-select. But if we ask: can you fit through that door, then it becomes something else. I don't know, in a culture where fat is seen as wrong, how you face reality. I really don't.

Imagine you work for the airlines and you set policy. How does the 'routine scan' of the boarding area actually work? So, you see large passengers and call them to the desk. First, it'll be fairly obvious to some what's going on. Second, can you assume that people will self-disclose whether they suspect they'll fit, or not? They may not know. They may suspect but not want to admit it. They may know but want to have a cheap flight w/o a second seat. 

How would (the communal) you try to solve this problem within the established trammels of the situation? Some may not believe airlines are going bankrupt or that fuel costs as much as it does, but they are and it does, so answers like: build larger seats or: lower prices so everyone can buy a 2nd seat when needed are probably not realistic. 

How would you handle the interpersonal discussion that needs to come about as the result of size?


----------



## bonified (May 23, 2011)

Lol at Easter, I had a plane delayed by an hour and a person eventually volunteered to get off the flight as I bought 2 seats and they fkd up at check in & subsequently overbooked the plane. 

Was a nice way to start my holiday. 

I don't like strangers in my personal space unless invited. I don't suppose anyone does, I cringe when people cough or sneeze without covering their mouths near me, gross! I am bigger than the so called average, I ensure I am not offending anyones personal space and I expect the same for everyone else or there will be confrontation. I am not in denial about being fat, nor do i appreciate anyone else trying to be diplomatic about it, its obvious i need more room & I take measures to make it so I have just that. 

If you are fat, and cant afford the extra ticket, then save until you do, fatness is a result usually of lifestyle choices, not everyones but the plane is the way it is, you want to go on it comfortably, with no bullshit, either lose the arse or get 2 seats.


----------



## gangstadawg (May 23, 2011)

bonified said:


> Lol at Easter, I had a plane delayed by an hour and a person eventually volunteered to get off the flight as I bought 2 seats and they fkd up at check in & subsequently overbooked the plane.
> 
> Was a nice way to start my holiday.
> 
> ...



ill say it again not everyone thats big is fat. there are some individuals that are just big people over all. and again for example people built like shaq.


----------



## bonified (May 24, 2011)

I replied with the too fat to fly title in mind. 

In response to your post, I think anyone that respects other peoples personal space as well as wanting theirs respected at the very same time should ensure they take preventative measures to maintain their comfort requirements irrespective of size, weight etc. 

I'd also wager a bet that Shaq too is fat, where it counts.

oopsie


----------



## jtimmo (May 24, 2011)

gangstadawg said:


> FYI you dont have to be fat to be forced to buy 2 seats. a large person (not in general could be forced to do this. lets say some one built like shaq who is not a small person by any means.



This. I'm 6'8 and I've been forced to buy two seats before (one in front of me and my actual seat). In some cases I've even been "forced" to sit at an emergency exit for maximum leg room. As an ex flight-attendant, I think you can see why I quit the job.


----------



## Jello404 (Jun 3, 2011)

I dont understand why fat people are upset about this.You take up 2 or 3 seats..so pay for 2 or 3 seats. . Now it sucks that we have to pay extra...but you should pay for what you use and we use more than one seat.Its fair.Pay up. its not discrimination.


----------



## mel (Jun 3, 2011)

I booked a flight today and paid for 2 seats..but I do hope the flight doesnt oversell so I can get a refund..but honestly I like having the extra room. I can turn sideways. Stretch out abit and not worry about every muscle in my body cramping from trying to "hold it all in".


----------



## shinyapple (Jun 3, 2011)

Jello404 said:


> I dont understand why fat people are upset about this.You take up 2 or 3 seats..so pay for 2 or 3 seats. . Now it sucks that we have to pay extra...but you should pay for what you use and we use more than one seat.Its fair.Pay up. its not discrimination.



The issue raised wasn't paying for a second seat. It's the way the airlines handle the issue when addressing passengers in public. Whether a customer should or should not know they need the additional space is irrelevant when it comes to treating another person with respect and handling sensitive matters with tact and discretion.


----------



## BBW4Chattery (Jun 14, 2011)

shinyapple said:


> The issue raised wasn't paying for a second seat. It's the way the airlines handle the issue when addressing passengers in public. Whether a customer should or should not know they need the additional space is irrelevant when it comes to treating another person with respect and handling sensitive matters with tact and discretion.



I've avoiding flying for my entire life. I've checked in a few times, walked to my boarding area, and bailed out. In August, I have no choice but to fly. I'm terrified that my weight is going to become a huge issue.

I'm 5'6'' and 285'ish, heavier on top than bottom, but have a fat face... so I definitely am easily identified as a big girl. I just don't want to be humiliated. Mainly b/c I will be traveling with the fella I adore and gosh, it would just be awful to put him in that position.

I agree with you completely. It isn't a space or cost issue... it's about respect. Thanks for sharing your stories everyone. I'm petrified. Ugh.


----------



## Keb (Jun 14, 2011)

BBW4Chattery said:


> I've avoiding flying for my entire life. I've checked in a few times, walked to my boarding area, and bailed out. In August, I have no choice but to fly. I'm terrified that my weight is going to become a huge issue.
> 
> I'm 5'6'' and 285'ish, heavier on top than bottom, but have a fat face... so I definitely am easily identified as a big girl. I just don't want to be humiliated. Mainly b/c I will be traveling with the fella I adore and gosh, it would just be awful to put him in that position.
> 
> I agree with you completely. It isn't a space or cost issue... it's about respect. Thanks for sharing your stories everyone. I'm petrified. Ugh.



*hug* You should be fine. I'm a hundred pounds more than you are, and I've never been humiliated on a plane (and while I'm not a frequent flier, I've done my share over the years). Since you're flying with your adorable fella, you can even put up the armrest between you and snuggle a bit for more comfort. 

Depending on the size of the plane, you may not even need to get an extender for the seat belt (smaller planes, for whatever reason, tend to have smaller belts in my experience), but if you do, just flag down the attendant and politely ask for a seat belt extender. They know the drill, and they're required to make sure everyone is safely buckled in. Sometimes I don't even have to ask, and they've always just quietly handed it to me--never made a big deal about it. If they have limited numbers of them on board, they may ask you to wait until they're done with their demonstration (since they use the extenders to demonstrate how to buckle up), but then they'll get it to you right away so that you can be safe before take off. 

I know that you're nervous, but trust them to treat you with respect. I've heard horror stories, sure, but I've never experienced them in the many times I've traveled. Most attendants are very professional and polite, and realize that when you make a request like that, you're helping them to do what they are required by law to do--make sure every passenger is safe on their flight.

Flying mostly sucks no matter what size you are--the security lines, the tiny space per person (which is small for anyone over the age of about 12), and the long hours sitting in one place with nowhere to go and little to do. Still, there are cool things about it, like that awesome feeling when you lift off, the occasional amazing view (the statue of liberty from the air is impressive indeed), and the fact that you can get on a plane today in DC and be in Tokyo tomorrow. Bring a couple of good books or video games, some music, and whatever will help you nap on the plane, and the flight will be over before you realize it. 

The flight attendants may not be perfect, but they're there to make sure you're both safe and as comfortable as possible; don't be afraid to ask them for whatever you need.


----------



## cherrysprite (Jun 14, 2011)

BBW4Chattery said:


> I've avoiding flying for my entire life. I've checked in a few times, walked to my boarding area, and bailed out. In August, I have no choice but to fly. I'm terrified that my weight is going to become a huge issue.
> 
> I'm 5'6'' and 285'ish, heavier on top than bottom, but have a fat face... so I definitely am easily identified as a big girl. I just don't want to be humiliated. Mainly b/c I will be traveling with the fella I adore and gosh, it would just be awful to put him in that position.
> 
> I agree with you completely. It isn't a space or cost issue... it's about respect. Thanks for sharing your stories everyone. I'm petrified. Ugh.




I don't think you will have a problem. I flew at well over 300 lbs and around your height. I think you can check on the website of the airline, and it may give you some additional information. I really think you have nothing to worry about. Like Keb said, just ask for a seatbelt extender if you need one. It is not a big deal at all.


----------



## Sydney Vicious (Jun 16, 2011)

Keb said:


> I flew this weekend, requested extenders on each flight, was packed in with the other sardines, and while the seats were uncomfortable (especially on the last flight), I got by just fine. Nobody was rude to me, and nobody asked me to buy another seat. I was on United, btw.



what size in women's clothing are you? 

I'm flying in less than 2 weeks and I'm getting super nervous, but I'm SO PUMPED for a vacation!


----------



## Keb (Jun 16, 2011)

Sydney Vicious said:


> what size in women's clothing are you?
> 
> I'm flying in less than 2 weeks and I'm getting super nervous, but I'm SO PUMPED for a vacation!



On the bottom half, 4-5x, though I can get by with a 3x on the top half, go fig.

And have yourself a GREAT vacation!


----------



## Sydney Vicious (Jun 16, 2011)

Keb said:


> On the bottom half, 4-5x, though I can get by with a 3x on the top half, go fig.
> 
> And have yourself a GREAT vacation!



score! I'm near the same! Thanks so much, there's still some anxiety but you seriously just took a huge weight off my shoulders.

I will! I'll make sure to take lots of pics of alllll of this *crazy chubby girl wiggle dance* on the beach!


----------

