# Christian Gainers vs. "The Sin of Gluttony"



## pudgy (Apr 11, 2008)

I realize that this is probably an incredibly unpopular question, but please realize I'm just looking for some conversation, not a place to condemn anybody (including myself!).

Are there are any Christian gainers/feedees out there who deal with the concept of the "sin of gluttony"? If so, how do you get around this? Do you just push aside and out of your conscience? Do you figure that fat is a form of blessing? Or do you just say "screw it" and hope God forgives you.

For me, I'll admit that I'm of the "screw it" camp.


----------



## The Orange Mage (Apr 11, 2008)

Is this kinda like saying "...I tell you, it is easier for a fat man to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."?


----------



## benzdiesel (Apr 11, 2008)

Regardless of the Websters definition, whatever that might be.... I don't think "eating vast quantities" or even "constantly eating" is necessarily the biblical definition of 'gluttony'. 

I tend to think of gluttony as a situation where eating vast amounts of food becomes an obsession that drives you more than your religion does; where food becomes an idol. Also, gluttony would be a situation, I feel, where your eating became an obstruction to Christian duties... stealing crumbs from the homeless just to satisfy your obsession with eating. 

Simply eating because you enjoy gaining, if it doesn't interfere with a relationship with God, seems in my mind to be harmless enough.


----------



## Waxwing (Apr 11, 2008)

I was raised to believe that being fat was a sin for that very reason. 

Would be interested to hear other people's experiences on this.


----------



## BothGunsBlazing (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm not religious, but just curious. Doesn't the whole saying "screw it" thing sort of negate the whole point of it? I mean, you can't just pick and choose like that can you? 

I mean, it's not a buffet, right? 

(weight board humor)


----------



## pudgy (Apr 11, 2008)

benzdiesel said:


> Regardless of the Websters definition, whatever that might be.... I don't think "eating vast quantities" or even "constantly eating" is necessarily the biblical definition of 'gluttony'.
> 
> I tend to think of gluttony as a situation where eating vast amounts of food becomes an obsession that drives you more than your religion does; where food becomes an idol. Also, gluttony would be a situation, I feel, where your eating became an obstruction to Christian duties... stealing crumbs from the homeless just to satisfy your obsession with eating.
> 
> Simply eating because you enjoy gaining, if it doesn't interfere with a relationship with God, seems in my mind to be harmless enough.



Hmm. I think that's actually pretty great insight. God didn't intend to make rules for the sake of making rules. They had reasons behind them. If an obsession with food is hurting those around you, then therein lies the problem. But if you're desire to gain is not causing you to be a jerk, then perhaps gluttony isn't actually being done.


----------



## JoyJoy (Apr 11, 2008)

My opinion...

the nature of grace isn't: "I'll do what I want, right or wrong, and ask for forgiveness later because I know God is good".

It should be: "I'll do my best to be the best person I can be, but since humans are flawed, I know I'll make mistakes and that if I'm truly penitent, God will forgive me."

If you really feel "gluttony", however you define it, is wrong, but do it anyway on the idea that you can just ask for forgiveness later, that kind of defeats the purpose.

*edit* Basically what BGB said in much fewer words. Yeah.


----------



## pudgy (Apr 11, 2008)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> I'm not religious, but just curious. Doesn't the whole saying "screw it" thing sort of negate the whole point of it? I mean, you can't just pick and choose like that can you?
> 
> I mean, it's not a buffet, right?
> 
> (weight board humor)



Well, unfortunately us religious folk do occasionally treat rules and such as a buffet. But I think there are some things that we really honestly hope that God understands and that - if He really doesn't like it - He'll make it clear to us in some way.

In terms of gaining, I've never felt any particular guilt about it (aside from societal). I've asked God before to make Himself clear on the matter. He hasn't. And thus..."screw it."

Other things - like perusing the Paysite Board - God has made Himself pretty clear. Thus I do my best to fight my lust. Most of the time I'm okay. Sometimes not. But that's a thing that I'm working on.

Whether or not I see gaining as gluttony is really the question I go back and forth on. Thus the thread.


----------



## Ned Sonntag (Apr 11, 2008)

This comes up every couple of years and I have to look up the quote from Phillipians about those "whose God is their Belly" and then the dance begins. I adore Lilly but we are totally in disagreement on this one thing. Maybe in a postindustrial milieu one can be an FA or BBW and something vaguely resembling a first-century Christian but I don't see it. I say keep some of the value system, dispense with the mysticism and go buy videos on the Paysite Board. Probably the worst you'll get is Purgatory. Wait, did Ratzinger close down Purgatory in '04?


----------



## stan_der_man (Apr 11, 2008)

JoyJoy said:


> My opinion...
> 
> the nature of grace isn't: "I'll do what I want, right or wrong, and ask for forgiveness later because I know God is good".
> 
> ...



Adding to what you are saying JoyJoy... Isn't the whole jist of "gluttony" about hording, or taking more than one's fair share? If you live in a society of plenty, I don't necessarily see eating a lot, or having plenty as being "gluttony". Maybe on a global scale the wealthy countries of the world could be considered "gluttonous", but even that is debatable.


----------



## Ned Sonntag (Apr 11, 2008)

fa_man_stan said:


> Adding to what you are saying JoyJoy... Isn't the whole jist of "gluttony" about hording, or taking more than one's fair share? If you live in a society of plenty, I don't necessarily see eating a lot, or having plenty as being "gluttony". Maybe on a global scale the wealthy countries of the world could be considered "gluttonous", but even that is debatable.


 The paradigm is shifting-- it's later than you think-- last call for the buffet table on the Titanic...


----------



## stan_der_man (Apr 11, 2008)

Ned Sonntag said:


> The paradigm is shifting-- it's later than you think-- last call for the buffet table on the Titanic...



So Ned, what you are saying is to eat now while we can and god will sort us out later? 

:eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1:


----------



## Aleph0 (Apr 11, 2008)

I think this all depends on how you define religion for yourself.
If it's a nominal set of rules, treated like a legal code of sorts, so if you can "get away on a technicality", why not? -- in that case, of course, the question is what the Bible, or whatever sacred text you worship, literally says.

But on the other hand, I tend to see religion as a matter of wisdom guided by conscience, not to demonize thinking and reasoning, but to employ it in the fullest. We all know inside what it means to be good or to be bad -- until we begin to debate it with other people 

So... if your religion requires ascetic virtues, then eating for pleasure is a sin, regardless if you get fat or not. That may be extreme.
But if your religion just calls for a certain set of priorities, then it's a simple matter of understanding (though it has to be a deep, honest understanding) that pleasures of the flesh are a not a big deal, they are trifle where "Being a Human Being" is concerned, and should be treated without undue seriousness or obsession.
Does it harm one's ability to be a good and moral person if they are fat or like to eat? Hardly, I think, unless it makes them make wrong choices in serious matters... something like refusing to help people because you want to spend the time eating another cherry pie?

I think that for any person with values and dignity, religious or not, any obsession is a bad idea. Be it food, sex, collecting stamps, playing a MMORPG, or websurfing. If I can always keep in mind that what I'm doing is just for fun, a trifle that knows its place in my mind and is happy there, what danger am I in?


----------



## Russell Williams (Apr 11, 2008)

My response has been, "see what a big beautiful temple I have built for my god? Since you have only a very small temple for your god you must feel that your god is not very important and does not deserve a big temple."

It kind of leaves my attackers at a loss for words.

"You may not be able to change their hearts and minds, but sometimes you can shut them up and that is almost as good."


----------



## JoyJoy (Apr 11, 2008)

Russell Williams said:


> My response has been, "see what a big beautiful temple I have built for my god? Since you have only a very small temple for your god you must feel that your god is not very important and does not deserve a big temple."
> 
> It kind of leaves my attackers at a loss for words.
> 
> "You may not be able to change their hearts and minds, but sometimes you can shut them up and that is almost as good."



"It is better to remain silent and appear foolish than to speak and remove all doubt."


----------



## Jay West Coast (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm not a Christian gainer, but I have known a few. 

First of all, take under consideration that Jesus was accused of being a glutton by the Pharisees (Luke 7:34), and preached that all foods were intended to be eaten (Mark 7:19). 

The truth is that "gluttony" is effectively a construction of the religious bodies to describe the sin of choosing self-indulgence and worldly comforts over concern for others or God. Gluttony isn't necessarily a sin of food, but more accurately a sin of Hummers, McMansions, Gucci, and mega-TV's. The idea is that these things divert your attention from things that really matter--like real people, injustice, the beauty of creation, and the permanence of the Creator. Instead, your focus is on shallow joys, on things that are so passing and temporal. If you build your happiness only around this stuff, you'll be pretty bummed when it expires. 

So, I don't think gaining weight is at all a sin in and of itself. I do think that if your delight in the consumption of food overwhelms the other things you've been called into in you life, you should reevaluate. However, God created you with certain kicks and I'd argue that God intended you to find Him within your sexuality, not despite it. If you get a kick out of ordering a double portion of dessert because it'll make you that much bigger, you're not necessarily conflicting with God's intention for you. To find the line between what is fulfillment in your life and derailment from goodness, you'd need to have a conversation with the Big Man. 

Hopefully I helped to paint a big fat grey area for you. Sorry, the problem with Christianity is ultimately a relational exercise, and those looking for a strict legalism need not apply.


----------



## stan_der_man (Apr 11, 2008)

Russell Williams said:


> My response has been, "see what a big beautiful temple I have built for my god? Since you have only a very small temple for your god you must feel that your god is not very important and does not deserve a big temple."
> ...


If a small woman's body is a temple, are you saying that a large woman's body is a cathedral?


----------



## FaxMachine1234 (Apr 11, 2008)

Yeah, gluttony is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, but they aren't in the Bible; someone came up with that list hundreds of years later. So they're not completely invalid, but if you're following strictly the teachings of Christ, they aren't part of them.


----------



## imfree (Apr 11, 2008)

Jay West Coast said:


> I'm not a Christian gainer, but I have known a few.
> 
> First of all, take under consideration that Jesus was accused of being a glutton by the Pharisees (Luke 7:34), and preached that all foods were intended to be eaten (Mark 7:19).
> 
> ...



I've never seen it explained better, Jay. Jesus himself even 
hated religion. The religious will judge obese people as being
gluttons. God most likely sees anything a person prioritizes
over Him as being gluttony.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Apr 11, 2008)

Jay West Coast said:


> I'm not a Christian gainer, but I have known a few.
> 
> First of all, take under consideration that Jesus was accused of being a glutton by the Pharisees (Luke 7:34), and preached that all foods were intended to be eaten (Mark 7:19).
> 
> ...



What he said.


----------



## Judge_Dre (Apr 11, 2008)

No where in the Bible will you see gluttony listed as a sin. It comes from a monastic code of conduct called The Seven Deadly Sins. It was never originally meant to be applied to the lay person. Monks separate themselves from society and live lives different than ours.


----------



## pudgy (Apr 12, 2008)

Interesting fact. Proverbs does say something along the lines of "if you are a glutton, put a knife to your throat," but that's more within the context of politicking for power and position. And it's hard to deny that the New Testament warns against lack of self-control, greediness, etc. But I think that idea rhymes with what people have been saying. To say that a Christian should not have pleasure is actually an ancient heresy of the church. But pleasure should not hurt others. That's the key.


----------



## Russell Williams (Apr 12, 2008)

fa_man_stan said:


> If a small woman's body is a temple, are you saying that a large woman's body is a cathedral?



And when attached to a good mind and kind and caring personality, a cathedreal to be worshiped at.

However if the cathedral is approached and found to contain a mind that is full of anger, pettiness, intolerance, and pride in ignorance, then the cachedreal loses all of the beauty seen from afar

Russel Williams


----------



## Observer (Apr 12, 2008)

Jay West Coast and Ekim have already nailed the biblical truth on this topic. The so called "seven deadly sins" are actually not scriptural at all. They originated as a construct among ascetic Roman Catholic monks around the time of Augustine and have been used by judgmental believers to clobber other believers into a conformity to traditions ever since. 

The truth, as evidenced by both the existence of fat morphic types in various species (if you believe that God created all) and the size-blind granting of the fruits and gifts of the spirit is that God of Christianity is not concerned about weight per se but about our heart and character. There is even a passage in Isaiah where "fatness of the bones" is promised as a reward (some would say literally a metaphor for prosperity) for those who serve and benefit others.

The real "seven deadly sins" of the Bible -- things which God hates -- are found in Proverbs 6:16-19 -

16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Note that not one of these things (nor any other scripture) has to do with anyones weight. The closest to it is one cautioning that one be careful of eating too much in the presence of a ruler if one is given to appetite - you don't want to cause a bad impression (Prov. 23:2). But the "sin lists" of the Bible (such as Galatians 5:19-21) focus on things which impact our dealings with God and other humans.

This is consistent with the findings of all research in the field - that weight is not a matter of character at all, but is rather a function of heredity. food supply, peer environment and exercise which both varies greatly among individuals and is exceptionally difficult to change.


----------



## Make_Lunch_Not_War (Apr 12, 2008)

Russell Williams said:


> And when attached to a good mind and kind and caring personality, a cathedreal to be worshiped at.
> 
> However if the cathedral is approached and found to contain a mind that is full of anger, pettiness, intolerance, and pride in ignorance, then the cachedreal loses all of the beauty seen from afar
> 
> Russel Williams



What HE said.


----------



## imfree (Apr 12, 2008)

Observer said:


> Jay West Coast and Ekim have already nailed the biblical truth on this topic. The so called "seven deadly sins" are actually not scriptural at all. They originated as a construct among ascetic Roman Catholic monks around the time of Augustine and have been used by judgmental believers to clobber other believers into a conformity to traditions ever since.
> 
> The truth, as evidenced by both the existence of fat morphic types in various species (if you believe that God created all) and the size-blind granting of the fruits and gifts of the spirit is that God of Christianity is not concerned about weight per se but about our heart and character. There is even a passage in Isaiah where "fatness of the bones" is promised as a reward (some would say literally a metaphor for prosperity) for those who serve and benefit others.
> 
> ...



"Seek ye the truth and the truth shall set you
free" I wish everyone practiced what you
have written, Observer! This, most grievously,
is just one example of how religion imprisons
people, while truth sets people free!


----------



## squurp (Apr 14, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> I was raised to believe that being fat was a sin for that very reason.
> 
> Would be interested to hear other people's experiences on this.



I would have to guess that the practical reason behind the "sin of gluttony" was to eliminate the practice of wealthy romans having a feast where participants ate until overfull, then went in the backroom and puked it all up, and then ate until full again, and so on. Obviously, this food could be used to feed the poor and underprivileged. I would say it is a stretch for jesus to have had something against fat people (in a historical sense, not religious sense).

From wiki:
A popular misconception is that the Romans made use of a room called a vomitorium for the express purpose of vomiting between meals to make room for more food. Only a very few indulged in the practice of deliberately vomiting.[2] A vomitorium is actually an entirely unrelated architectural feature  a passage situated below or behind a tier of seats in an amphitheatre, an exit through which the crowds could "spew out" at the end of a show.[3][4]

and maybe a more reliable source:
http://www.content4reprint.com/heal...mia-and-how-it-evolved-into-a-new-problem.htm


----------



## Fuzzy Necromancer (Apr 14, 2008)

The seven deadly sins were a list made by a religious authority figure, and not part of the bible or official word of god.


----------



## blubrluvr (Apr 19, 2008)

Judge_Dre said:


> No where in the Bible will you see gluttony listed as a sin. It comes from a monastic code of conduct called The Seven Deadly Sins. It was never originally meant to be applied to the lay person. Monks separate themselves from society and live lives different than ours.



That's interesting because Monks generally were the fattest people in Medieval Europe. The Friar Tuck stereotype has a big basis in fact. 

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_1161819.htm


----------



## Waikikian (Apr 19, 2008)

We babyboomer guys remember from our school days that religious girls were often the most well-fed. The days of working mothers had arrived but born-agains were more likely to have a stay-at-home mom putting feasts on the table nightly. Second helpings seemed pretty wholesome at a time of free love and recreational drug use. 

Later, of course, fast food chains made menu changes that made their calory counts soar, supermarkets began selling prepared foods full of sugar and fat, and soon you couldn't tell the pious from the heathens, which suited me fine.


----------



## Imp (Apr 21, 2008)

blubrluvr said:


> That's interesting because Monks generally were the fattest people in Medieval Europe. The Friar Tuck stereotype has a big basis in fact.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_1161819.htm



A lot of the ascetic sects came about in reaction to the excesses of other sects, so methinks you have a keen eye.

In regard to the original question, people are correct that gluttony is not one of seven deadly sins in Scripture. Whether in Catholic canon it is an official sin, I would hope a Catholic here might be in the know.

However, there are plenty of references in Scripture to lust and gratification of desire that are more global in scope, and gluttony is upon occasion looked upon poorly. There is, for example, condemnation of those who are ruled by their stomachs/appetites as opposed to ruled by the Spirit of God. The reference is to any appetite but clearly the metaphor could include gluttony. In Judges, one evil dude is noted to be particuarly fat, and that seems to be condemnation for his selfishness and oppression of others. Using the Lord's Supper for gorging and drunkenness is another instance. So, it's there, just not particularly emphasized in any kind of list and always with the focus of being a symptom of a larger rebellion before God.

The truth is that we can put anything before God, be it our money, ambition, love of food, hockey (particularly perverse)--anything. So I think consuming your resources with gorging, or limiting yourself physically for sensual pleasure would probably be a part of that person's sinfulness before God. Certainly there is no general prescription against fatness. Frankly, I think the US culture's emphasis on thinness more closely fits this pattern. But then, we all gotta have somethin'.


----------



## Fuzzy Necromancer (Apr 21, 2008)

Observer said:


> Jay West Coast and Ekim have already nailed the biblical truth on this topic. The so called "seven deadly sins" are actually not scriptural at all. They originated as a construct among ascetic Roman Catholic monks around the time of Augustine and have been used by judgmental believers to clobber other believers into a conformity to traditions ever since.
> 
> The truth, as evidenced by both the existence of fat morphic types in various species (if you believe that God created all) and the size-blind granting of the fruits and gifts of the spirit is that God of Christianity is not concerned about weight per se but about our heart and character. There is even a passage in Isaiah where "fatness of the bones" is promised as a reward (some would say literally a metaphor for prosperity) for those who serve and benefit others.



Does this shirt make my bones look fat?


----------



## Zachipoo (Apr 21, 2008)

As a theology major and christian I have to agree with much of what has been said...


----------



## CuriousKitten (Apr 23, 2008)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> I'm not religious, but just curious. Doesn't the whole saying "screw it" thing sort of negate the whole point of it? I mean, you can't just pick and choose like that can you?
> 
> I mean, it's not a buffet, right?
> 
> (weight board humor)



Interesting point. I have found that those anti-gay activists somehow find all sorts of "quotes" from the Bible to support their case but then they'll go eat a cheeseburger... even though in Leviticus it says not to eat meat and dairy together. Hmmm... I think everyone picks and chooses to suit their own needs. I think picking stuff that intentionally hurts others or shoving your own religion down someone's throat is far worse than overeating.

I'd say I'm all for the "screw it" crowd except I do feel some responsibility. But I do donate food to the poor and when I over cook I do invite over friends etc. And just the other day I gave a banana bread to my neighbors for no reason. So I think gluttony might be more of hoarding. If you are stuffing your face admist hungry people, that would be wrong. But if there is lots of go around, why not enjoy the food God gave us? And if you have lots of food, I encourage you to give to homeless shelters and to charities because we truly should share the wealth.


----------



## Imp (Apr 24, 2008)

CuriousKitten said:


> Interesting point. I have found that those anti-gay activists somehow find all sorts of "quotes" from the Bible to support their case but then they'll go eat a cheeseburger... even though in Leviticus it says not to eat meat and dairy together. Hmmm... I think everyone picks and chooses to suit their own needs. I think picking stuff that intentionally hurts others or shoving your own religion down someone's throat is far worse than overeating.
> 
> I'd say I'm all for the "screw it" crowd except I do feel some responsibility. But I do donate food to the poor and when I over cook I do invite over friends etc. And just the other day I gave a banana bread to my neighbors for no reason. So I think gluttony might be more of hoarding. If you are stuffing your face admist hungry people, that would be wrong. But if there is lots of go around, why not enjoy the food God gave us? And if you have lots of food, I encourage you to give to homeless shelters and to charities because we truly should share the wealth.



Um, Leviticus never says to not eat meat and dairy together, and--from the obvious desk--dietary codes and moral codes are not equivalent. Nor do I think, unless perhaps you live someplace where shariah law exists, have you ever really seen anyone sane shove their religion down someone's throat. I rather guess you've seen people state their opinions with emotion and conviction, which is a far cry different.

However, the NT Scripture to support your larger point is that all things were given to us for our enjoyment. The context is I Timothy 6:

11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 

17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

The key is a life of a righteousness and generosity.


----------



## CuriousKitten (Apr 24, 2008)

Imp said:


> Um, Leviticus never says to not eat meat and dairy together, and--from the obvious desk--dietary codes and moral codes are not equivalent.



Oops. You are right. Someone told me that once and I liked the idea of it being an arguement so much that I guess I never fact checked it. Thanks for pointing that out. The only references I did find were Deut 14:21 and Exodus 23:19 which state not to cook meat in milk which isn't quite what I had originally meant.



Imp said:


> Nor do I think, unless perhaps you live someplace where shariah law exists, have you ever really seen anyone sane shove their religion down someone's throat. I rather guess you've seen people state their opinions with emotion and conviction, which is a far cry different.
> .



And I meant "shoving it down ones throat" figuratively not literally. I know and have met super fanatical Christians who are on such an evangelical campaign that they are so closed minded and ignorant that they just push their religion on everyone else and judge everyone else's actions. They don't take the time to listen to the questions of the people they might actually stand a chance in converting and they are often so busy judging others themselves and acting righteous that they end up being hypocrites themselves. THIS is what I meant by shoving religion down someone's throats. I am all for academic or philosophical discussions but there is no 100% right answer. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and belief and faith are personal things. In the end only God can judge you for your actions.

So anyhow to avoid further unchecked facts in my posts, I did some research today and I found another quote that supports the whole "enjoy food" theory.
_Deut.20 When the LORD your God has enlarged your territory as he promised you, and you crave meat and say, "I would like some meat," then you may eat as much of it as you want._

But then I also found this one that refutes it:
_Proverbs23: 20 Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat,_
In my Catholic Bible is says: _Consort not with winebibbers, nor with those who eat meat to excess; For the drunkard and the glutton come to poverty._

But I do also agree with you that a search for the seven deadly sins turns up nothing and the few references to gluttony in the Bible are quite vague. I suppose like anything it's open to interpretation.

This has been an eye opening and interesting thread.


----------



## pudgy (Apr 25, 2008)

Though this isn't really the point of this thread, I'd like to tell a story real quick:

Christian author Donald Miller and some friends of his once set up a booth at a secular university in Oregon back when he was in college. The booth had a label on the front called "Confession Booth." Out of simple curiosity some students - drunk, high, or otherwise - came to check out this booth and thus either Donald or one of his friends inside.

"So, like, what? Am I supposed to tell you my sins or something," the unexpectant college student would ask.

"No, actually," Donald/friend would say. "We would actually like to confess to you. We want to say we're sorry. For the crusades, for bigotry, for republicans, for televangelists, and bad singers." And that's exactly what they would do. Apologize for Christianity. Not Jesus. Jesus had nothing to apologize for. But Christianity obviously did; no one was simply gutsy enough to do it.

And so, in light of that, I'd like to take that opportunity as well. I'm sorry about televangelists and stereotypes and judgmental attitudes and bigotry and hypocrisy. 

Now, back on topic. My belly almost hangs down...so close. Just one (or thirty) more cheeseburger(s) to go!


----------



## Curious Jane (May 3, 2008)

Well, Jesus was a glutton (Luke 7:34). So I guess it can't be all that bad...


----------



## Fatgirlfan (May 3, 2008)

Hmm, all of this is interesting. My great-grand mother was fat. She did not eat meat. She grew up poor and ate mostly bread and potatoes and only drank water and coffee. I would not call her a "glutton",, whatever that is.

Sooo, my point is that she was fat because of her carbohydrate only diet. 
she also liked to sit in her chair and rest. She was quick witted but not quick on her feet.

So, I don't think she was a glutton by modern and harsh standards. 


Besides, I can think of about 100 things worse than eating a little more than
another person thinks you should.
-murder, rape, unjustified anger, cruelty to children, genocide, theft, poisoning someone's well. AND SO ON............


----------



## Mack27 (May 5, 2008)

I think Ned is right on this one. If you go beyond the first century of Christianity or so gluttony would be frowned upon and even condemned as a sin in general Christian practice. From the Catholic Encyclopedia (I just googled gluttony and there it was) "Clearly one who uses food or drink in such a way as to injure his health or impair the mental equipment needed for the discharge of his duties, is guilty of the sin of gluttony." full article here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06590a.htm

For the vast majority of the history of Christianity I'm pretty sure its safe to say that feederism would be condemned as the sin of gluttony by the heirarchies of all of the major churches.

Smoking has to be considered gluttonous though and obviously there are Christians who do that, a lot more than who practice feederism. Nobody is without sin, and if your keen on sticking with first century Christians most of them believed in universal salvation according to the Universalists.

The fact that its a naughty thing is part of the attraction though isn't it?


----------



## zonker (May 5, 2008)

A few excerpts from this interesting article on gluttony as a sin:

According to a 1998 Purdue University study, obesity is associated with higher levels of religious participation. (Broken down by creed, Southern Baptists have the highest body-mass index on average, Catholics are in the middle, and Jews and other non-Christians are the lowest.) When this finding was brought to the attention of the Reverend Jerry Falwell, he was unperturbed. "I know gluttony is a bad thing," Falwell said. "But I don't know many gluttons." That is one way out of the dilemma -- to deny that overweight people are necessarily sinful gluttons. But it could also be that gluttony is not really a sin.

. . . Nor is the idea that gastronomic indulgence is an outrage against the divine order to be found in the Bible. In "Gluttony," the latest in a series of short books on the seven deadly sins published by the Oxford University Press, Francine Prose observes that most of the feasting in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament "is, as it should be, celebratory, unclouded by guilt, regret or remorse."

It was not until the sixth century that Pope Gregory the Great classified gluttony -- along with pride, greed, lust, envy, anger, and sloth -- as one of the gravest perils to the soul. (Zonker: See, nothing in Jesus's teachings about gluttony; it was a Catholic pope six centuries after Jesus who declared this. If you want to worship Pope Gregory, go ahead.).

St. Thomas Aquinas -- a hefty fellow himself, as it happens -- declared that gluttony had "six daughters": "excessive and unseemly joy" are the first two, followed by "loutishness, uncleanness, talkativeness, and an uncomprehending dullness of mind." Others have claimed that gluttony paves the way to lechery. "When the belly is full to bursting with food and drink, debauchery knocks at the door," wrote the medieval German monk Thomas a Kempis. (Zonker: Yeah, nothing like a full belly to put me in "the mood".)

Thus our expanding national girth is more a matter of economic forces than of moral failure. Yet, as Prose observes, many obese Americans still view their condition in terms of guilt and punishment. Those on group diets like Weight Watchers are especially prone to use religious language -- "sinner," "saint," "confession," "absolution" -- to describe their struggle. Perhaps we have not come so far from the sixth-century worldview of Pope Gregory the Great.

Here's the link for the whole article:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/11/23/the_deadliest_sin/


----------



## mergirl (May 7, 2008)

hmm.. thank god i'm an atheist!!
i have read the bible though..i read a lot of fiction books and really enjoy them. 
i read a passage and it said that (this is the guist).. if a woman is raped in the countryside then she was asking for it and should be stoned to death... but get this...
if she is raped in the town..then the guy who raped her has to marry her and pay her father a gold coin!!!!
why isnt THIS rule enforced by all the crazy gay hating, abortion DR killing wack jobs out there?? 
cause its stupid and behind the times.. thats why.!
grrrr..
actually i think i have commited all of the deadly sins..in particular the one about coveting my neighbours ass... erm.. and i killed a moth the other day.. (it was a mercy killing as my cat had eaten its wings and it was spinning in circles so i bashed it with my bible or some other heavy book)..etc
xxmer


----------



## LillyBBBW (May 7, 2008)

mergirl said:


> hmm.. thank god i'm an atheist!!
> i have read the bible though..i read a lot of fiction books and really enjoy them.
> i read a passage and it said that (this is the guist).. if a woman is raped in the countryside then she was asking for it and should be stoned to death... but get this...
> if she is raped in the town..then the guy who raped her has to marry her and pay her father a gold coin!!!!
> ...



After my rape in the countryside I was plenty stoned but I didn't die. That reminds me, it's been a while since I've killed a gay abortion doctor.


----------



## mergirl (May 7, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> After my rape in the countryside I was plenty stoned but I didn't die. That reminds me, it's been a while since I've killed a gay abortion doctor.


ROFLMAO!!!! (erm ..so long as your joking).. lol..
yes..nothing like a good old fashioned raping after killing a few fetuses i say..
kill em all i say!!
all that aside..i bet if jesus were alive today he would like enjoy a good spliff ..i think its mentioned in the bible somewhere... also i bet he would be an f.a. 
hmm.. well if the bible can make up shit so can i!! lmao


----------



## LillyBBBW (May 7, 2008)

mergirl said:


> ROFLMAO!!!! (erm ..so long as your joking).. lol..
> yes..nothing like a good old fashioned raping after killing a few fetuses i say..
> kill em all i say!!
> all that aside..i bet if jesus were alive today he would like enjoy a good spliff ..i think its mentioned in the bible somewhere... also i bet he would be an f.a.
> hmm.. well if the bible can make up shit so can i!! lmao



Could be mer, He had no issues with wine. I wonder if cannibis was used for medicinal purposes of if people cooked with it then? I'm ignorant to that sort of thing.


----------



## mergirl (May 7, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> Could be mer, He had no issues with wine. I wonder if cannibis was used for medicinal purposes of if people cooked with it then? I'm ignorant to that sort of thing.


erm.. i guess if i googled it it would be cheating.. also its very time consuming.. erm.. 
i guess i equate smoking grass more with rastifarianism not judiasm..
i'm not sure if dope grows in bethlehem and there abouts..though i'm not that sure..
All i know is ..i dont grow it in my attic for all the police out there...
erm..i dont actually know any rastifarians (sp) though i do have a friend from trinidad who smokes a lot of weed.. so thats good enough..
erm..and i have a half jewish friend (she is half jewish not half a friend) who also smokes hash..
hmmm... well i dont know WHAT the hell point i am making here lilly..lmao... but erm..i think its something to do with jesus and drugs!
if there is a hell then i am there!! lmao
xxmer


----------



## LillyBBBW (May 7, 2008)

mergirl said:


> erm.. i guess if i googled it it would be cheating.. also its very time consuming.. erm..
> i guess i equate smoking grass more with rastifarianism not judiasm..
> i'm not sure if dope grows in bethlehem and there abouts..though i'm not that sure..
> All i know is ..i dont grow it in my attic for all the police out there...
> ...



Well, maybe not ganj specifically but I'm sure you could get opiates in any part of the world. There were no sugeon general warnings either and at one time they even put it in baby's milk to shut the kid up.


----------



## mergirl (May 7, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> Well, maybe not ganj specifically but I'm sure you could get opiates in any part of the world. There were no sugeon general warnings either and at one time they even put it in baby's milk to shut the kid up.


haha brilliant! i can just see the advert now "hey moms..if your baby is crying.. give em drugs"! haha..
well..i know that over here queen victoria took coke and all sorts of drugs..
erm.. i cant even remember the point now.. lmao..
also over here up until the 1970's they used to give people with depression acid..
i think drugs have to be in context to make sense.. the same as religion (you see how i got the convo back to the original post!! lmao)
xmer


----------



## LillyBBBW (May 7, 2008)

mergirl said:


> haha brilliant! i can just see the advert now "hey moms..if your baby is crying.. give em drugs"! haha..
> well..i know that over here queen victoria took coke and all sorts of drugs..
> erm.. i cant even remember the point now.. lmao..
> also over here up until the 1970's they used to give people with depression acid..
> ...



You straight arrow you.


----------



## mergirl (May 7, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> You straight arrow you.


indeed..i pride myself on being an arrow.. i'm far from straight though.. i'm kinna more a bendy stick really..
lilly.. i need to ask.. how the hell did we turn this gainer/christianity post into one about giving your kids drugs to shut em up??? 
i feel we are magicians!!! 
xmer


----------



## LillyBBBW (May 7, 2008)

mergirl said:


> indeed..i pride myself on being an arrow.. i'm far from straight though.. i'm kinna more a bendy stick really..
> lilly.. i need to ask.. how the hell did we turn this gainer/christianity post into one about giving your kids drugs to shut em up???
> i feel we are magicians!!!
> xmer



I don't know. All I know is I'm glad my mind didn't wander off all alone this time. lol Thanks for coming along for the trip!


----------



## mergirl (May 7, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know. All I know is I'm glad my mind didn't wander off all alone this time. lol Thanks for coming along for the trip!


haha..it was my obscure pleasure lady! its nice to chatter with a fellow rambling traveller.. i should really go ..as my tv is talking to me and i feel an urge to eat ice cream and pickles! lmao
xmer


----------

