# Me 'n' My Tubes ponder ligation



## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

I've been pondering tubal ligation for a couple of years, but from what I understand I won't be able to convince a doctor to give me one because I'm young and childless. Certainly it wouldn't be something that I would expect to be covered by insurance, so I don't really understand why I can't elect to have it. It was hard enough getting a Mirena (which is the best thing ever in the world. ever.). 

Can anyone speak to this? Does anyone want to share experiences with? Opinions for or against? 

The only woman I know who's had the procedure is my mom, and it was even somewhat difficult for her at 43 to convince a doctor to sterilize her.


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

Nobody cares for my tubes.

*heee* i'm in a very silly mood.


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## ZainTheInsane (May 10, 2007)

Well...honestly...I'd never want a woman to do that...and I have no idea why you'd want to have the tied...I mean...it is permanent...and what happens when down the road something changes, and you want children...it would be like a guy getting a V-sac. It'd be awesome for sleeping around (in reference to the young male mentality towards sex)...but what about when it comes to time to marry...it is something that might be a huge halt to what might be happy things.

I don't know...I guess I'm bias.


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## love dubh (May 10, 2007)

It's tough, Waxy dear, dealing with doctors re: the ladyparts. They assume that all women want children, whether they know it or not, whether they realize it now or not. They don't think that a 20-30 year old woman could have her stance on children firmly formed. 

I want to get a Mirena myself, but at 20, that'll be an uphill battle. :doh: :doh:


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 10, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> I've been pondering tubal ligation for a couple of years, but from what I understand I won't be able to convince a doctor to give me one because I'm young and childless. Certainly it wouldn't be something that I would expect to be covered by insurance, so I don't really understand why I can't elect to have it. It was hard enough getting a Mirena (which is the best thing ever in the world. ever.).
> 
> Can anyone speak to this? Does anyone want to share experiences with? Opinions for or against?
> 
> The only woman I know who's had the procedure is my mom, and it was even somewhat difficult for her at 43 to convince a doctor to sterilize her.



Go for it. Don't want kids? Be safe and get it done. Look for a very open OB/GYN, and discuss your options. Best way to find a cool doc: Every time you have a pap smear, throw it out there. Eventually someone will be cool.

And if you change your mind on children, I'll give you any defectives I have.


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> And if you change your mind on children, I'll give you any defectives I have.



NICE!!


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## Trisha (May 10, 2007)

I care, Waxwing 

I think you should be able to elect to have this procedure done; however you are right in thinking you'd have a hard time convincing a doctor to do it. I remember my ex sister-in-law had a hard time getting one, since she was only 25 or so - even though she'd had 4 kids in under five years 

I'd probably elect to have my tubes tied if I thought my insurance would pay for it. I DO NOT want children and in fact I'd rather lose a limb than have a child (no offense to anyone who's lost a limb - just a comparison). I know it may sound awful, considering there are SO many women who struggle with infertility, but I've known for years and years (and I'm not quite 30!) that I don't want kids. 

I get alot of flack from people when they find out I wish to remain childless, telling me things like, "Oh, you'll change your mind!" or "It's different when it's YOUR child!". Bullshit. Kids are kids and it would be WORSE when it's MY screaming kicking monster in a mall that I can't just walk away from shaking my head.


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## FreeThinker (May 10, 2007)

A friend of mine had a vasectomy when he was in his late 20s.

Had to jump through hoops for it, because that kind of thing is paid for here, under our provincial healthcare.

It's more than a little disgusting that someone wanting sterilization can't just be given the procedure immediately.

If the person has a change of heart later, and if the procedure is reversible, then the person should pay for the reversal.

If it's not a reversible procedure...tough.

The fact is that we're overpopulating, yet those who make the laws still view non-procreators as an aberration. How else to explain the notion of refusal to sterilize due to age and childlessness?

Young (presumably better recovery) and child-free is the most sensible time both to allow people this procedure, or to choose it for one's self.

It's a basic human right, as I see it.

(Not that my saying so helps your situation.)


Good luck with resolving this issue. :bow:


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

love dubh said:


> I want to get a Mirena myself, but at 20, that'll be an uphill battle. :doh: :doh:


 
Snot easy, tis true. 

I had looked hither and yon for a willing doctor and finally found that the UCSF medical school women's clinic docs are HUGE supporters of the Mirena. In fact they'll get you in touch with a non profit organization which funds Mirenas for women who don't have health insurance. 

Mine was paid for by that group, and I had to pay only the $200 "installation" (funnier because it makes your uterus sound like a car stereo) fee. 

What's curious is that there is NO reason why a young childless woman shouldn't have a Mirena. Decide you want to get pregnant? Have it removed and you're back to normal. It's not your grandma's copper IUD. 

Dubh, don't give up on getting one. It's fabulous. No cramps anymore. Actually, no period anymore, which is not uncommon.


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## AnnMarie (May 10, 2007)

Okay, I rarely pull this card out, but nothing works my last nerve like a guy saying something about a woman choosing to reproduce or not, etc. Not your uterus, not your problem.... back off.

Cool. 

Anyway, Waxy... I feel you. I have wanted to have my tubes tied since I was about 18, but it was always "not an option" and from what I understand it's still not. They're just not willing to risk the liability if you change your mind, even though I suspect you're like me... it won't happen. 

I've never wanted kids, I don't "coo" at babies, it's just not my thing. While I understand that it's not possible for everyone to understand that feeling, I expect it to be respected just as I don't look at those who "do" want to have kids like they're from another planet, or patronize them with statements like "well, I'm sure you'll change your mind someday, I mean, once you REALLY think it over". 

I have had some of the rudest things said to me regarding this topic, including but not limited to comments like "well, if you're selfish, I can understand not wanting kids" or "sometimes people just don't mature enough to want them". 

Uhm. 

FUCK YOU. 

Anyway, Waxy, personally, now that I'm older, am glad I didn't have it done only because I know a couple of women who did and they've had some hormonal adjustments to go through... I figure who needs it, and it's not that big of a deal to have the period. I think if I'd been able to do it and they'd told me about possible side effects like that, I'd have thought better about it anyway. I just wanted the card off the table, but I don't want to alter my natural system so much it could effect me adversely. 

High 5, you non-breeder!


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## Jes (May 10, 2007)

My friend was sterilized at the age of ... 26? We're no longer friends or i'd offer to ask her what the story was, b/c I don't recall. I know it wasn't an easy sell, but it certainly didn't take years or 10 doctors. It's possible planned parenthood would be a resource in terms of finding out a process. If no one is biting, try trading your procedure for the ones they give poor black women with lots of kids, w/o telling them. You know?


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## Tooz (May 10, 2007)

ZainTheInsane said:


> Well...honestly...I'd never want a woman to do that...and I have no idea why you'd want to have the tied...I mean...it is permanent...and what happens when down the road something changes, and you want children...it would be like a guy getting a V-sac. It'd be awesome for sleeping around (in reference to the young male mentality towards sex)...but what about when it comes to time to marry...it is something that might be a huge halt to what might be happy things.
> 
> I don't know...I guess I'm bias.


It's HER CHOICE. If I was given the chance to have it done tomorrow, I would! If I want a child down the road, I'll adopt. And...newsflash: who CARES what you want a woman to do? Her damn choice.

btw it's "biased"


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

Can it cause hormonal problems? I guess that makes sense but I wasn't aware of that.

And tooz, let's get married.


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## FreeThinker (May 10, 2007)

AnnMarie said:


> I've never wanted kids, I don't "coo" at babies, it's just not my thing. While I understand that it's not possible for everyone to understand that feeling, I expect it to be respected just as I don't look at those who "do" want to have kids like they're from another planet, or patronize them with statements like "well, I'm sure you'll change your mind someday, I mean, once you REALLY think it over".
> 
> I have had some of the rudest things said to me regarding this topic, including but not limited to comments like "well, if you're selfish, I can understand not wanting kids" or "sometimes people just don't mature enough to want them".




There are two issues here:

1)Women "should" reproduce.

2) Doctors are superior to us all.


Until undermining authority and questioning arbitrary social standards are no longer viewed as treason or heresy, we'll just have to keep saying


AnnMarie said:


> FUCK YOU...


...to those who hold the reins.


If they start to treat us with some respect, we could consider using a more polite tone.


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## TCUBOB (May 10, 2007)

Buddy of mine just had the vas. He's my age (32 or so), and getting married this summer. Neither he nor the missus want kids. 

Seems reasonable to me. No reason for the woman to go for major surgery (I'm assuming that tube tying is) if they guy she's getting married to is willing to have the highway diverted.

And I'll be honest; I'd never fucking heard of a Mirena. I thought for a minute someone was reading your vagina its rights.


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## Renaissance Woman (May 10, 2007)

I don't see why it can't be done. Hell, shop around for the best price. If you're told they won't give you the procedure because you're too young/single/childless/stupid to know what you "really" want, then call up another place. 

I've never wanted kids, never think babies are cute, and if I hear a screaming kid I hightail it the other way whenever possible. So yeah, I feel you, and AnnMarie too. About the only other option I could throw out is that if you're in a committed relationship with a dude who doesn't want kids either, have him get snipped. A vasectomy's a whole lot easier to do than a tubal ligation, with fewer possible complications. 

In any case, good luck and continue to enjoy the child-free life!


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## Jes (May 10, 2007)

TCUBOB said:


> And I'll be honest; I'd never fucking heard of a Mirena. I thought for a minute someone was reading your vagina its rights.



in a manner of speaking, it is.

i got the 'you're so selfish' line too, about kids (no kids, i mean). Mind you, it's not like i REFUSED. No one has ever wanted to make them with me. I'm going to make one by myself?? I think that's all about the person saying the crap, and not about anything or anyone else.


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

TCUBOB said:


> Buddy of mine just had the vas. He's my age (32 or so), and getting married this summer. Neither he nor the missus want kids.
> 
> Seems reasonable to me. No reason for the woman to go for major surgery (I'm assuming that tube tying is) if they guy she's getting married to is willing to have the highway diverted.
> 
> And I'll be honest; I'd never fucking heard of a Mirena. I thought for a minute someone was reading your vagina its rights.


 
It's not major. They inflate your abdomen with air to make it easier to get to the tubes, go in through the navel, and bob's your uncle-- you can't make wee ones. 

Reading your vagina its rights. GOD DAMN that was funny, bob. I mean really really funny. 

a Mirena is a little piece of surgical plastic which let's me enjoy my male companions without the fear of procreation. I mean would in theory if I had male companions.


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## TCUBOB (May 10, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> It's not major. They inflate your abdomen with air to make it easier to get to the tubes, go in through the navel, and bob's your uncle-- you can't make wee ones.
> 
> Reading your vagina its rights. GOD DAMN that was funny, bob. I mean really really funny.
> 
> a Mirena is a little piece of surgical plastic which let's me enjoy my male companions without the fear of procreation. I mean would in theory if I had male companions.



You would think with jokes like that I could get laid, but apparently, the number of blind women who think I'm funny is tragically small. As in none, so far.

And so far, I'm no one's uncle.


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## FreeThinker (May 10, 2007)

Renaissance Woman said:


> About the only other option I could throw out is that if you're in a committed relationship with a dude who doesn't want kids either, have him get snipped. A vasectomy's a whole lot easier to do than a tubal ligation, with fewer possible complications.



True.

Stopping up the (male's) plumbing instead of changing the (female's) chemistry. Certainly the more compassionate thing to do, if that's an option.

Of couse, then you don't have the "portability" or "ownership" of the sterilization.

There are many things to balance.



(And of course, doctors all assume this is just a scheme you cooked up while riding the elevator to their office, rather than a carefully-thought-out decision you've been clear on for years, and merely never vocalized.)


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## AnnMarie (May 10, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> Can it cause hormonal problems? I guess that makes sense but I wasn't aware of that.
> 
> And tooz, let's get married.



What is so fundamentally wrong with me that you don't want to marry me when I said the same thing!!!!!!!!!


/girl crush


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## elle camino (May 10, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> It's not major. They inflate your abdomen with air [...]


yeah, this is the part that i'd watch out for.
my girlfriend jessie has 2 babies, and after she delivered her second she was like TIE ME THE FUCK UP. understandable, and nobody gave her any grief (even though she was pretty young - 26), since i guess they figured she'd bred an acceptable amount of times already. i agreed to help her out with the kids for a couple of days after the surgery, so i saw the whole aftermath firsthand and it scared the heck out of me. 
when she got him she looked like whatsherface, blueberry girl from willy wonka. just all blown up and miserable. and it took like over 3 days for her to...deflate. 
like i guess the gas works it's way out through your skin or whatever, and it takes different amounts of time for everyone to recover. but the whole time she was in excruciating pain. 
i'd never considered the blowing-you-up part of that procedure before, and just the idea of it gives me the jibblies now.


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## LoveBHMS (May 10, 2007)

If you went to a doctor and said "I need a physical because I plan on being pregnant and being responsible for growing a new human life inside me and being responsible for it for at least 18 years." they would not think twice.

I have heard stories of women having to get letters from psychiatrists attesting to their ability to make the sterilization choice. I had spoken to a doc about it and was told i'd have to get a psychiatrist's note. It infuriated me.

But here's the sad thing. Women have sued doctors for performing these procedures. yes, women who were legal adults who consented to sterilization later sued doctors for doing it, claiming the docs should have known they MIGHT want babies later.


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

AnnMarie said:


> What is so fundamentally wrong with me that you don't want to marry me when I said the same thing!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> /girl crush



No, no. See, you and I will have a TORRID AFFAIR!!!*

*which doesn't mean that we'll only do it in the dressing rooms at Torrid.


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

the day my mom, 'went in to be spayed' (as she put it), she called me afterward and said, "holy shit i have the bends!", which I guess is what happens when the gas doesn't dissapate quickly enough. Apparently quite painful. 



elle camino said:


> yeah, this is the part that i'd watch out for.
> my girlfriend jessie has 2 babies, and after she delivered her second she was like TIE ME THE FUCK UP. understandable, and nobody gave her any grief (even though she was pretty young - 26), since i guess they figured she'd bred an acceptable amount of times already. i agreed to help her out with the kids for a couple of days after the surgery, so i saw the whole aftermath firsthand and it scared the heck out of me.
> when she got him she looked like whatsherface, blueberry girl from willy wonka. just all blown up and miserable. and it took like over 3 days for her to...deflate.
> like i guess the gas works it's way out through your skin or whatever, and it takes different amounts of time for everyone to recover. but the whole time she was in excruciating pain.
> i'd never considered the blowing-you-up part of that procedure before, and just the idea of it gives me the jibblies now.


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## elle camino (May 10, 2007)

hey zain.
chill the fuck out.


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## Waxwing (May 10, 2007)

ZainTheInsane said:


> Fuck you all...all I did was state my opinion...yeah, its her fucking choice..


 
I know what you meant. And for you it would be weird to find that the woman you planned to marry couldn't give birth, because it's something that you want. But if I were going to marry someone we'd have already established that I don't want to, so he would have to already be cool with that. 

It's tough because along with the million other things you have to worry about when looking for a mate, you have to know that you agree on that issue as well. It's definitely up to me, but I wouldn't want to be with a man who *realllly* wanted children, because he should have the chance to do that. It has actually ended more than one relationship for me. I don't thinkn that I ever thought about men being just as capable of that drive as women, but I guess they are.


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## bigsexy920 (May 10, 2007)

Well my sister wanted one after her second child and her DR said no because she was only 23. I said she should wait too.. that god forbid something ever happen to her husband and they are not together she may meet someone that would want kids. Well she did have it done after the 3rd. BUT she has since been divoriced and remarried and now she longs to have a child with her current husband. 

I would say that as long as you have gone through every situation in your head that could come up and I mean REALLY think and you STILL dont want children, than I would say that you should do it .. IM sure there is someone out there that will do it for you. 



Waxwing said:


> I've been pondering tubal ligation for a couple of years, but from what I understand I won't be able to convince a doctor to give me one because I'm young and childless. Certainly it wouldn't be something that I would expect to be covered by insurance, so I don't really understand why I can't elect to have it. It was hard enough getting a Mirena (which is the best thing ever in the world. ever.).
> 
> Can anyone speak to this? Does anyone want to share experiences with? Opinions for or against?
> 
> The only woman I know who's had the procedure is my mom, and it was even somewhat difficult for her at 43 to convince a doctor to sterilize her.


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## ZainTheInsane (May 10, 2007)

elle camino said:


> hey zain.
> chill the fuck out.



It is something I feel strongly about...it is one of the few things I truly care about when it comes to my future. So, no, I won't chill-out...keep all that you hold dear, and defend it all with fierce passion...or you are nothing but a whisper on the wind.


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## ZainTheInsane (May 10, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Interesting fact: Good dog breeders breed for gentle temperment and intelligence. Maybe we have something to learn from them?



Interesting thought...so did the Bush family...what have we learned from that?

Oh, and nice job ignoring the point


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 11, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> The only woman I know who's had the procedure is my mom, and it was even somewhat difficult for her at 43 to convince a doctor to sterilize her.



Put out some babies- then you will have trouble keeping them away from your tubes 

They will keep asking you if they can snip and cut you while they have their hands jammed up in you whilst you are suffering severe labor pains - I don't see the problem


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 11, 2007)

< would take in wayward WW babies.


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## Waxwing (May 11, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> < would take in wayward WW babies.



What about wayward WW?


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## TearInYourHand (May 11, 2007)

I am a firm believer in being in control of your own body. That is, if you are an adult (over 18). Yeah, there have been some young women who had tubal ligations who later regretted it. There have been some older women who later regretted it. 

No matter how much a doctor thinks you may regret it, it is your choice. And, if you do regret it (the hypothetical you, not YOU, Waxy) it is your choice to live with, not the doctor's. Who made doctors the moral police?

So, one should obviously think LONG and HARD about this. It's not a light decision! However, if we consider a 25 (or whatever) year old woman responsible enough to buy a gun, drive, join the military, drink, etc... why not control their own reproduction?


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## Waxwing (May 11, 2007)

TearInYourHand said:


> if we consider a 25 (or whatever) year old woman responsible enough to buy a gun, drive, join the military, drink, etc... why not control their own reproduction?


 
And that's exactly my problem. Right now I'm driving around Iraq, HAMMERED, and I just do NOT have time for a kid.


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## Spanky (May 11, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> I know what you meant. And for you it would be weird to find that the woman you planned to marry couldn't give birth, because it's something that you want. But if I were going to marry someone we'd have already established that I don't want to, so he would have to already be cool with that.
> 
> It's tough because along with the million other things you have to worry about when looking for a mate, you have to know that you agree on that issue as well. It's definitely up to me, but I wouldn't want to be with a man who *realllly* wanted children, because he should have the chance to do that. It has actually ended more than one relationship for me. I don't thinkn that I ever thought about men being just as capable of that drive as women, but I guess they are.



Waxy, what a nice, thoughful, and measured response! Men have controlled women for so long in history that any male mentioning the desire to have children does mean a woman having/wanting to bear them and maybe the presumption is continued control over the woman in some way. 

I think it takes a lot of courage to make a decision that will be permanent in your life. No matter what it is. 

And if Zane conceives with a woman someday, the real desire as a man should be to raise healthy, respectful and strong children to adulthood in a safe and happy environment. I still think there are more good men in this world than bad. :bow:


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## TearInYourHand (May 11, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> And that's exactly my problem. Right now I'm driving around Iraq, HAMMERED, and I just do NOT have time for a kid.



Bahahahahahah!

I just called, to say....I love you!


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## elle camino (May 11, 2007)

ZainTheInsane said:


> It is something I feel strongly about...it is one of the few things I truly care about when it comes to my future. So, no, I won't chill-out...keep all that you hold dear, and defend it all with fierce passion...or you are nothing but a whisper on the wind.


are you aware of the difference between being enthusiatic and being hostile?
it doesn't seem like you are, and from what i've seen out of you around here, you might want to familiarize yourself.
hint: one makes you an interesting conversationalist whose points actually get across to the people you're speaking to, and the other makes you look like a child throwing a tantrum. guess which is which!


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## AnnaBanana (May 11, 2007)

To Waxy,

I have tied tubes! I'm fine, wasn't so bad, if you get some gas pains request some pain reliever.

The fact is, you have a doctor, who is not listening to you, and making a judgement FOR you. Now, is this the doctor you want to continue to have if you get sick or in an accident or any health reason?

It is my opinion, really good doctors are ones who can listen to their patients, not make up their minds for them, work with them, educate them, not make moral/lifestyle choices for the patient, be there, instead, as a safety net, part of a team.

So, I would, in your shoes, start the tedious hunt of finding that rare quality doctor who can service all your health needs. You get a good doctor, who will listen, and that is the one you want on your side. From a business point of view, don't give business to dipshits, even if they have degrees. lol

I did have my tubes tied at 26, but I also had an extenuating health circumstance at that time. I remember going through a hassel long ago to get birth control pills, and a doc who would'nt prescribe them to me because they were against god's wishes. Nevermind I am not christian. 

Good luck finding someone to do this for you, I support the idea of people knowing themselves and taking responsibility for their own life, and if you do not want children, then you do not want children. And if you turn 40 and regret it, well, first pregnancies are a bear, especially when older, and there are so many children in the world that do not have homes or food, surgeries for simple things like cleft pallet, nor education, even right here in the good ol' USA. Nothing precludes anyone from later deciding they have room to love a child in their life, and subsequently, making the room. You always have options. Better than not having an option, find a better doctor.


Anna


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## mimosa (May 11, 2007)

I love being a mom but it hasn't been easy. If you hear a kid kicking and screaming at Walmart ,.......yup, that's my kid. Even with all these problems, I love my son with all my heart, it's true. But I WOULD NEVER call ANYONE selffish just because they don't want to have children! I think being a mom is a blessing But it is also HARD WORK. So as a Mom I want to say, you have my blessing, Waxwing. I hope all goes well for you whatever you decide. :bow:


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## TCUBOB (May 11, 2007)

TCUBOB said:


> Buddy of mine just had the vas. He's my age (32 or so), and getting married this summer. Neither he nor the missus want kids.
> 
> Seems reasonable to me. No reason for the woman to go for major surgery (I'm assuming that tube tying is) if they guy she's getting married to is willing to have the highway diverted.
> 
> And I'll be honest; I'd never fucking heard of a Mirena. I thought for a minute someone was reading your vagina its rights.



<Bob points loaded finger at Waxy's hoo-hoo>

"You have the right to remain silent and empty. Anything you say or any egg you fertilize can and will be held against you."

"You have the right to an attorney, even if he is a giant dick. If you can not afford an attorney/giant dick, one will be provided to you (either by legal services or the local dildo emporium)."


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## Tooz (May 11, 2007)

elle camino said:


> nobody gave her any grief (even though she was pretty young - 26), since i guess they figured she'd bred an acceptable amount of times already.



This is exactly what I hate about the situation. If you haven't popped some little gremlins out, it's pretty hard to find someone who tie your crap up. I hate babies. Yes, hate. I don't even understand why reproducing is so incredibly important to most men and women. My period has been irregular for the entire time I have had it, and I have a small wish that it will lead to me being unable to have children.

I find it interesting that a woman can easily find a place to abort, but when she decides that she wants to fix what produces the things she aborts in the first place, no one will touch it.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 11, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> What about wayward WW?



No doubt, world is a better place with smart people breeding. So it makes me a little sad when there will be no little Ann Maries or little Waxies. 

But, if you don't want them, I understand. Like Tear said, ultimately, YOUR decision. My own niece makes me flipflop. Same brilliant little creature that talked before age one and pretends to be a tiger eats couch lint.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 11, 2007)

Tooz said:


> This is exactly what I hate about the situation. If you haven't popped some little gremlins out, it's pretty hard to find someone who tie your crap up. I hate babies. Yes, hate.
> 
> ...
> 
> I find it interesting that a woman can easily find a place to abort, but when she decides that she wants to fix what produces the things she aborts in the first place, no one will touch it.



Tooz, white babies on black market = $50,000 a head. 

Just saying. Your financial future.


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## Tooz (May 11, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Tooz, white babies on black market = $50,000 a head.
> 
> Just saying. Your financial future.



Ooh, MONEY! Well, guess I better get crackin'. :batting:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 11, 2007)

TCUBOB said:


> Buddy of mine just had the vas. He's my age (32 or so), and getting married this summer. Neither he nor the missus want kids.
> 
> Seems reasonable to me. No reason for the woman to go for major surgery (I'm assuming that tube tying is) if they guy she's getting married to is willing to have the highway diverted.
> 
> And I'll be honest; I'd never fucking heard of a Mirena. I thought for a minute someone was reading your vagina its rights.



My ex-husband had a vascectomy so I wouldn't have to have my tubes tied- the doctors (his and mine) told him straight up that it's less expensive, easier, less risky, easier recovery and even easier to reverse than having my tubes tied. 
With the insurance we had at the time, it cost us $30 out of pocket for HIM to have it done. 

Mirena is an IUD (Intra-uterine device) They put it in and you can pretty much forget about it and birth control for a while is the appeal of it.


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## Tooz (May 11, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> My ex-husband had a vascectomy so I wouldn't have to have my tubes tied- the doctors (his and mine) told him straight up that it's less expensive, easier, less risky, easier recovery and even easier to reverse than having my tubes tied.
> With the insurance we had at the time, it cost us $30 out of pocket for HIM to have it done.



Yeah. I hope whoever I marry is willing to consider this.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 11, 2007)

mimosa said:


> I love being a mom but it hasn't been easy. If you hear a kid kicking and screaming at Walmart ,.......yup, that's my kid. Even with all these problems, I love my son with all my heart, it's true. But I WOULD NEVER call ANYONE selffish just because they don't want to have children! I think being a mom is a blessing But it is also HARD WORK. So as a Mom I want to say, you have my blessing, Waxwing. I hope all goes well for you whatever you decide. :bow:



I agree with you about someone not wanting children is in no way "selfish". As a matter of fact, it's a very mature, reasonable decision to say straight up that you want something else out of life. I'm sure we have all seen parents that have children yet don't truly seem to want them. Seems better to not have them if you don't want them- and isn't that one of life's great joys? Being able to make your own decisions? 

My children are a blessing to me yet I think it would be ludicrous of me to expect everyone to feel the same as myself. Nor do I "take it personally" just because someone doesn't want children and I have them- I'm happy and think EVERYONE is allowed happiness in whatever way they perceive it/find it


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 11, 2007)

Tooz said:


> Yeah. I hope whoever I marry is willing to consider this.




Lol- it's not like he VOLUNTEERED or anything..... 


I just gave birth to our twins- our 2nd and 3rd children and had lasting health problems/issues from the pregnancies. After all I had gone through to give him (and myself) three beautiful healthy children, it was his turn to "contribute"  especially since it was easier/cheaper all around for him to do it 

He agreed


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## Waxwing (May 11, 2007)

Tooz, if you have irregular periods the Mirena would prolly fix that mofo right up. 

Mine are like clockwork now, even though the Mirena means that I don't really have them anymore, I know when it's time because I eat like a horse and cry at Kodak commercials.

It's a crazy amazing little product. Lasts for 5 years.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 11, 2007)

TCUBOB said:


> Buddy of mine just had the vas. He's my age (32 or so), and getting married this summer. Neither he nor the missus want kids.
> 
> Seems reasonable to me. No reason for the woman to go for major surgery (I'm assuming that tube tying is) if they guy she's getting married to is willing to have the highway diverted.
> 
> And I'll be honest; I'd never fucking heard of a Mirena. I thought for a minute someone was reading your vagina its rights.



Ha me too! I had to look it up. It sure sounds a lot easier and more convenient than the pill which I take everyday and am scared to death that one day I will forget.


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## Waxwing (May 11, 2007)

Ella Bella said:


> Ha me too! I had to look it up. It sure sounds a lot easier and more convenient than the pill which I take everyday and am scared to death that one day I will forget.


 
It is much easier. It's also a tremendously LOW dosage of hormones (nothing has to travel through your bloodstream because it's at the source, so to speak), so all the risks from the hormones in pills go down. 

It's about 700 bucks, but that's for something that lasts for 5 years. It can be tough to find a doctor to give you one, because there are lots of misconceptions about it (that it shouldn't be used on someone who has never had children-- not true). 

I'm like the crazy Mirena champion.


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## Esme (May 11, 2007)

I've talked to my doc about the Mirena... problem is, they don't like to give them to women who have not had children (something about birth canal size?) and there is still the risk of blood clots. Having already wound up in the hospital with blood clots as a result of birth control pills, it's not a risk my doctor or I are ready to take. 


If you have blood clot issues, PLEASE make sure you discuss that with your ob/gyn. (I feel like the Blood Clot Avenger--- and I'm okay with that!  )


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## Waxwing (May 11, 2007)

My understanding is that it only increases your risk of blood clots (leg and lung) if you've *already* had blood clots. Someone without previous clotting problems wouldn't have increased risk. But I might be wrong on that. That would be very scary.

What kind of costume does the Blood Clot Avenger wear???

It's thought that in a woman who has never given birth, there's less space all up in there and the Mirena will be painful. And yeah, it hurts for about a month. But after that it's great. The temporary pain is worth it. USCF told me that doctors who are against it are misinformed and/or lazy. Which I thought was a funny thing to say.


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## Esme (May 11, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> What kind of costume does the Blood Clot Avenger wear???



Well, it's red... :batting:


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## NancyGirl74 (May 11, 2007)

Wow, Waxwing...what a difficult choice. I think if you were to ask my advice I'd have to vote against it...However, I would be advising from the stand point of a woman who has always wanted children and at 33 is starting feel that window of opportunity closing. On the other hand, I would never presume to understand your heart, hopes, and dreams. I would also never tell another woman what she should do with her body. My hope is that you think things through with all your heart and then decide what is best for you and your future. Whatever you choose I wish you much luck and peace with your choice.


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## tinkerbell (May 11, 2007)

I just think its so *stupid* (for lack of a better word) that Drs refuse to do this for a childless woman. 

Anyway, good luck finding a Dr. I guess the best thing to do would be just to start getting consults with different Drs in your area. 

I have a feeling that my GYN would do it - he's just awesome I love him :wubu: It helps that he's cute too  When I was crying while they were doing the biopsy last summer, he was just so nice about it, and when I explained to him why I was crying, and why I had to be under anesthesia for the surgery, he was just so great about it.


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## Stormy (May 11, 2007)

FreeThinker said:


> A friend of mine had a vasectomy when he was in his late 20s.
> 
> Had to jump through hoops for it, because that kind of thing is paid for here, under our provincial healthcare.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. I think there should be free spay/neuter clinics for people like there are for pets. I'd donate.



AnnMarie said:


> I have wanted to have my tubes tied since I was about 18, but it was always "not an option" and from what I understand it's still not. They're just not willing to risk the liability if you change your mind, even though I suspect you're like me... it won't happen.
> 
> I've never wanted kids, I don't "coo" at babies, it's just not my thing. While I understand that it's not possible for everyone to understand that feeling, I expect it to be respected just as I don't look at those who "do" want to have kids like they're from another planet, or patronize them with statements like "well, I'm sure you'll change your mind someday, I mean, once you REALLY think it over".
> 
> ...


Me too, exactly. I've never had the slightest interest in having a child, taking care of someone else's or even looking at pictures of them. Not cute or interesting at all. I'm sure many people feel the same way about my canine "children" but to each their own.

I told people as far back as Elementary School that I didn't want to have children, but everyone said I'd change my mind later. I tried for about four years to get a doctor to give me a tubal ligation, finally got it done after an abortion and then them refusing to prescribe anymore birth control pills due to high blood pressure, when I was 24. I had to sign a bunch of paperwork agreeing to the procedure and not to attempt to sue the doctor or hospital, etc. if I changed my mind later. It's been so nice not to have to worry about getting pregnant again since then. 



AnnMarie said:


> Anyway, Waxy, personally, now that I'm older, am glad I didn't have it done only because I know a couple of women who did and they've had some hormonal adjustments to go through... I figure who needs it, and it's not that big of a deal to have the period.


I never noticed anything different after the initial pain of the surgery. You do still have menstrual cycles after a tubal ligation though, unless you're talking about a hysterectomy, which I would want to have done if it weren't for the hormonal problems (no periods yay!!!  ).


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## Waxwing (May 11, 2007)

Stormy said:


> I never noticed anything different after the initial pain of the surgery. You do still have menstrual cycles after a tubal ligation though, unless you're talking about a hysterectomy, which I would want to have done if it weren't for the hormonal problems (no periods yay!!!  ).



That's good to know.

And not to derail things, but I'm under the impression that hysterectomies are almost never needed, and that it's an overused surgery. Is that true?

Can anyone in health care school me?

I know that they were much more common years ago than they are now. To me it seems like a pretty barbaric surgery, but I don't know much about it. I may not want kids, but I want my girly internal bits.


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## Friday (May 12, 2007)

I wouldn't say they are never needed, but they are certainly overused.

MEN MAY NOT WANT TO READ THE FOLLOWING!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

I had issues that just couldn't be resolved any other way. Anemia caused by almost constant bleeding and the clots I passed anytime I would restart after stopping for a week or two were incredibly disgusting. Slabs 'o' liver. I had to quit taking baths (one of the great joys of life) because I bled too heavily to stay in more than a few minutes. I'm not even going to get more descriptive about that. And I won't even go into the cramps except to say even multiple doses of narcotics didn't help anymore.

The final straw was when I started getting migraines, something I never had to deal with the first 45 years of my life. Haven't had one since I had the plumbing reworked.

There have been a few emotional issues about the feeling that aliens wouldn't ID me as female anymore if I got abducted, but since I certainly wasn't wanting children at that point of life and I have so many fewer bits to worry about getting cancer of (no uterus, ovaries or cervix), I think it kind of balances out. There were definitely conditions cited in the pathology reports (odd tissue in the uterus, multiple cysts on the ovary) that were unnerving and I'm glad I don't have to wonder just what the hell's going on 'down there' these days. I took a minimal amount of hormones via the patch for a few years but haven't even bothered with those the last couple years. Overall, I think it's been a good choice for me, but I wouldn't choose it at a young age strictly because of the hormone issues.

OK, this was probably waaaay TMI but you asked.


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## lemmink (May 12, 2007)

From all this it sounds like going through a lawyer is the best option. I guess if you sign enough paperwork they'd have to let you get it done... well, hopefully. 

Seems so weird you can't get this as an easy option, even if they considered it a 'cosmetic'/elective surgery. I know so many women who absolutely vehemently do not want kids--I actually had a conversation about this in my office the other day with our all-female work team--and I never really thought about the total annoyance of birth control methods, etc. 

Good luck with it!


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## Waxwing (May 12, 2007)

Friday, that wasn't TMI. I really appreciate you relating your experiences. I'm glad that in your case it was something that helped you.

And the more I think about it I could be wrong that it's an overused procedure. I just heard that when women's health was even less understood than it is now, hysterectomies were used as a sort of cure-all for women.


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## Waxwing (May 12, 2007)

lemmink said:


> Seems so weird you can't get this as an easy option, even if they considered it a 'cosmetic'/elective surgery. I know so many women who absolutely vehemently do not want kids--I actually had a conversation about this in my office the other day with our all-female work team--and I never really thought about the total annoyance of birth control methods, etc.
> 
> Good luck with it!


 
You know, I'm sure it's a legal issue. If a potentially life-limiting procedure is performed, the risk management committee probably wants to make damned sure that there wasn't an alternative. 

Removing your ability to produce offspring could lead to some nasty lawsuits, even if it was consented to.


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## Friday (May 12, 2007)

> And the more I think about it I could be wrong that it's an overused procedure. I just heard that when women's health was even less understood than it is now, hysterectomies were used as a sort of cure-all for women.



Oh no, you got it right on the first try and while it's not as overused as it used to be there are still a lot of Drs (mostly, but not all male) who think any thing they can't diagnose must be female hysterics and therefore cured by removing the source of the hormones/femaleness. Any OB/GYN who's first solution for a problem is a hysterectomy either better have some damn good reasoning or get kicked to the curb. Mine is an old fashioned sort who thinks everyone should want kids, but even he worked with me for years before looking at the rip out room* as a solution.

*(a little husband humor, he's had lots of surgeries)


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## missaf (May 12, 2007)

I have a friend who went through this. She was raped, had a baby, and then wished to never have more children. She faced both her religion (Mormon), and her military doctors in her desire to have her tubes cut or a hysterectomy (which she wanted the most due to the scarring from her rape).

Every doctor she saw at every duty station refused, and they let her know that legally they felt they couldn't terminate her choice to have children permanently because of just that -- its permanence and the possibility that she could come back later and wish to have kids, and they'd get sued. They made her wait until 35, then she was allowed to have her hysterectomy.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 12, 2007)

Friday said:


> Oh no, you got it right on the first try and while it's not as overused as it used to be* there are still a lot of Drs (mostly, but not all male) who think any thing they can't diagnose must be female hysterics and therefore cured by removing the source of the hormones/femaleness*. Any OB/GYN who's first solution for a problem is a hysterectomy either better have some damn good reasoning or get kicked to the curb. Mine is an old fashioned sort who thinks everyone should want kids, but even he worked with me for years before looking at the rip out room* as a solution.
> 
> *(a little husband humor, he's had lots of surgeries)



Amen- the experiences I have had over the years with male gynecologists have been bad- and there have been several so at this point in my life, I don't have male gynecologists and IMO most of the males need to find another field to practice in.

**Yes, not all females are certain to be good gynecologists, however, they do have the same functions/system as myself and can at least understand my discomfort/pain without being an asshole that blows off any concerns, questions or requirements I might have- and then bills me for their "help"


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## Catalina (Jun 22, 2007)

Waxwing,

I'm curious as to what the status is on your research/decision as to whether you're going to get a tubal-ligation.

Regardless, your original post *so* sparked my attention! I chose long ago to remain child-free, though at the time it wasn't a specific, conscious choice; it was merely the lack of drive or desire to have children.

I had to face my belief and make a definitive decision a few years ago, when the man I was dating was certain he wanted to have children - and he was certain he wanted to have children with ME. *gulp*

Each year around our anniversary we'd discuss it, assessing where we were on the matter. If either of us was 100% certain in our stance, it was over; no room for discussion. This went on for four years.

I recall one time in particular when we were walking on the promenade by the beach. There was a couple approaching us, with the man pushing a stroller. I remember thinking to myself, "I'm so GLAD that's not US!" And at that moment, as if on cue, he said aloud to me, "Honey, that could be US!" I knew at that very moment on a very conscious level that there was a fundamental difference in the way we viewed the concept of having children. 

Well ... four years into it, I knew, and he knew. It was incredibly painful. He was, and is, the most incredible man I've known, which is a testament to the strength of my own conviction. I knew I was walking away from a one-of-a-kind man: honorable, loyal, incredibly intelligent, and ... he knew me better and adored me more than anything else. 

And on a more political note: Why is it that women who are completely emotionally and financially unable to take on the incredible responsibility of raising a child allowed to continue procreating, when someone who has consciously thought about and MADE THE DECISION to not bear children are not taken seriously? 

I'm a registered nurse and work in the neonatal intensive care unit, and I see with my own eyes the women who are on drugs and on their fourth, fifth and sixth "Oops!" child, yet those of us who make an informed decision not to add to the gene pool (for whatever reason) are made to jump through ridiculous hoops (and wait until we're old enough to *really* decide) to get assistance. UGH.

This is not a disparaging post aimed at those who choose to have children; I've the utmost respect for those who parent children. This is about the double-standard and judgments I see against those who choose differently.

Waxwing, your post truly struck a very personal nerve in me; it's something I've not particularly verbalized before, and I thank you for bringing it up!

AND ... as I said above, I'm quite interested as to where you are in this process.

Catherine


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## SoVerySoft (Jun 24, 2007)

*bump*


.......


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jun 24, 2007)

Catalina said:


> And on a more political note: Why is it that women who are completely emotionally and financially unable to take on the incredible responsibility of raising a child allowed to continue procreating, when someone who has consciously thought about and MADE THE DECISION to not bear children are not taken seriously?
> 
> I'm a registered nurse and work in the neonatal intensive care unit, and I see with my own eyes the women who are on drugs and on their fourth, fifth and sixth "Oops!" child, yet those of us who make an informed decision not to add to the gene pool (for whatever reason) are made to jump through ridiculous hoops (and wait until we're old enough to *really* decide) to get assistance. UGH.



Catherine, you answered your own question a little further in your post: the double standard is still alive, and women's decisions are not taken as seriously as men's. I think this may be particularly true in the medical establishment: when I was a boy, by and large _men_ were doctors, and women were nurses -- and servants for the (male) doctors.  That's changed for the better, but I'm sure there are plenty of male doctors with 1950's attitudes; you've probably met a few in your career.
I think the situation is particularly fraught when it comes to the subject of reproduction, because there is an unspoken assumption among many men that "that's what women are for." This goes all the way back to ancient Greece, where it was assumed that the function of a wife was to bear sons, and girl babies were routinely exposed to die.  There is an underlying assumption that men are somehow more valuable than women, and therefore their opinions count for more. The Women's Movement has done a lot to dispel this nonsense, but nonsense always dies hard.


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## Krissy12 (Jun 24, 2007)

I had mine tied at 26 after two children, no problems with the actual surgery at all. My periods did become highly irregular in the years following (still are), but I'll take that small price for never being pregnant again.  

I actually waited for a year after my second child, because I wasn't 100% sure. I was about 90% for that year leading up to the decision, but I wanted it to be 100%. (thought I was pregnant again and it was either that or roof jumping)


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## Violet_Beauregard (Jun 24, 2007)

I resemble that remark....  

just kiddin'!!  




elle camino said:


> yeah, this is the part that i'd watch out for.
> my girlfriend jessie has 2 babies, and after she delivered her second she was like TIE ME THE FUCK UP. understandable, and nobody gave her any grief (even though she was pretty young - 26), since i guess they figured she'd bred an acceptable amount of times already. i agreed to help her out with the kids for a couple of days after the surgery, so i saw the whole aftermath firsthand and it scared the heck out of me.
> when she got him *she looked like whatsherface, blueberry girl from willy wonka. just all blown up and miserable*. and it took like over 3 days for her to...deflate.
> like i guess the gas works it's way out through your skin or whatever, and it takes different amounts of time for everyone to recover. but the whole time she was in excruciating pain.
> i'd never considered the blowing-you-up part of that procedure before, and just the idea of it gives me the jibblies now.


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## Violet_Beauregard (Jun 24, 2007)

I've wanted my tubes tied since I was 18 years old, but couldn't get anyone to do it. I knew then, that I didn't want to have kids. I LOVE kids, but I know I don't want my own. I have NEVER felt that maternal instinct, or that "OMG, my clock is ticking" urge to have kids... ever. I'll be 44 in December and my feelings have not changed once ounce. I have a 13-year old nephew that I love like my own, but I STILL don't want to have kids. My insurance won't pay for it electively, soooo I'm patiently waiting for menapause... dammit. 

Waxy, I say go for it..... you are old enough to know what you want. Besides... if you do change your mind, God knows there are tens of thousands of kids waiting to be adopted into loving homes.


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## Kymber Dreams (Jun 25, 2007)

*I just turned 39 the other day. I have a 13 y/o and another who just turned 1 y/o. When they did my c-section, they did my tubal ligation. My doctor suggested it while I was pregnant due to my weight, "advanced" age and the fact that I had developed high blood pressure and diabetes during this pregnancy. After discussing it with my husband, who is only 27, we agreed that we were done and they tied my tubes. It was not something that came easy though. The hospital I was to have the baby at (high risk) is also a religious hospital where they do not do sterilizations. My doctor had to write a letter to send before a review board outlining the "medical necessity" of the procedure before they would agree to do it for me. They did OK it, but it was still just a weird process.
Kymber

P.S. I believe I read where someone stated that the hormones are screwy and periods stop with a tubal, earlier in this post... however, that is not the case with a simple tubal ligation. (I hope I didn't misread the post.) They are simply snipping and sealing your fallopian tube so that your egg does not make it to the uterus. You will still have your periods and because your ovaries aren't touched, no alteration of your hormone levels. *


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## Miss Vickie (Jun 25, 2007)

Hey, can we maybe move this thread to the health forum? I think maybe it'd be a nice fit there. 



Catalina said:


> Well ... four years into it, I knew, and he knew. It was incredibly painful. He was, and is, the most incredible man I've known, which is a testament to the strength of my own conviction. I knew I was walking away from a one-of-a-kind man: honorable, loyal, incredibly intelligent, and ... he knew me better and adored me more than anything else.



Wow. I just can't imagine making that choice. For either of you. That must have been so unbelievably hard.  



> And on a more political note: Why is it that women who are completely emotionally and financially unable to take on the incredible responsibility of raising a child allowed to continue procreating, when someone who has consciously thought about and MADE THE DECISION to not bear children are not taken seriously?
> 
> I'm a registered nurse and work in the neonatal intensive care unit, and I see with my own eyes the women who are on drugs and on their fourth, fifth and sixth "Oops!" child, yet those of us who make an informed decision not to add to the gene pool (for whatever reason) are made to jump through ridiculous hoops (and wait until we're old enough to *really* decide) to get assistance. UGH.



I'm an RN in a very busy L&D/Mom Baby unit and I see the very same thing. Women having umpteen babies which are given away to family members, passed around like crockery, getting pregnant again and again and again. It's very sad, and makes me angry that other women who know they don't want to have children at a young age (or know at a young age that they're DONE) are unable to have their tubes tied. It's crazy. We support (literally and figuratively) one behavior and yet question the other. It's nuts. And who suffers? The babies, who then grow up doing the same thing because it's what they know.



missaf said:


> I'm giving myself another four years then I'll be considering something permanent. I'll be 35 then, and my son will be 11, and that's way too late to start over in my personal life opinion. I'm not saying it's too late for others, just for me.
> 
> I'm not in a place at the moment to support another child, but if I'm not by 35, that's fine with me.



I felt the same way, but The Mister had a vasectomy years ago. We decided when our youngest was a wee little thing and we had an oops that that was it. My health was for crap, our financial situation was worse, and I seem to get pregnant at the drop of a hat. It was nice to have the decision made although sometimes... I think... wouldn't it be fun? ..... (and yes, I'm insane). But between his vasectomy and my ablation it would be a medical miracle for anything to sprout in me.  



Kymber Dreams said:


> *
> P.S. I believe I read where someone stated that the hormones are screwy and periods stop with a tubal, earlier in this post... however, that is not the case with a simple tubal ligation. (I hope I didn't misread the post.) They are simply snipping and sealing your fallopian tube so that your egg does not make it to the uterus. You will still have your periods and because your ovaries aren't touched, no alteration of your hormone levels. *



Actually, not many people know this but having your tubes tied isn't "just" snipping and sealing your tubes. I mean yes it is but it seems to somehow affect the circulation in the pelvis and women who have had a tubal ligation do go through menopause statistically earlier than their non-snipped and clipped counterparts. I think any time you go frittering around in there something is bound to be different. I don't have the data in front of me but the OB/GYN's I work with say that there is a statistical difference in the timing of menopause and that many women do report spotting, although how much of that is the result of underlying hormonal imbalances is hard to say.

I still think it's a great option, particularly if you're already "open" for another procedure like a cesarean. However, in terms of ease, ya can't beat a vasectomy! It's an office procedure, and if it fails? Worst thing is you'll get pregnant. If a BTL fails? You could have an ectopic pregnancy, which is life threatening. Of course that's a very rare occurrence, but still it should be kept in mind. 

Oh and for those looking into this, there is a new product on the market, called Essure, that is a coil that is inserted into the Fallopian tubes. The body forms scar tissue around it and occludes the tubes without surgery. My docs seem to like it because it's very easy to insert and has an extremely low failure rate. You run the same risk as with a tubal of a potential ectopic pregnancy (I have no idea how often these actually happen, but I do know it's a possibility, however remote) but at least it doesn't involve surgery.


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## Catalina (Jun 25, 2007)

Dr. Feelgood,

I really appreciated your post, and I agree with the points you so nicely articulated. The underlying belief that "men are more valuable than women, therefore their opinions count for more" is still widespread (not only when it comes to reproductive issues), though, and particularly when it comes to reproductive issues, it seems to be diminishing. Here's to the dieing of more nonsense ... no matter how hard it may be!  

Unfortunately it's not just men with 1950's attitudes; there are a lot of female doctors who are reticent to do a tubal on a woman. I mean, Are you SURE you want to give up your ability to bear children? (translation: that's what we're here to do!). Surely if you met the right man; Surely if you give it some time; Surely when you get older; Surely if you came to your senses and got on board with The-way-it's-supposed-to-be wagon you'll change your mind! 

OK. I need to step away from the computer; I'm gettin' kinda worked up here. *lol*

I'm glad you chose to share your insight and input, Drfeelgood, and I'm pleased to make your virtual acquaintance. 

Catherine


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## Catalina (Jun 25, 2007)

Miss Vickie,

Yay! Another nurse-type with whom to commiserate! 

You're right, it was an incredibly painful and difficult decision to make ... for both of us. Incredibly difficult.

What that forced me to do is face, accept and integrate into my core being that I don't want to have children; it's now something I articulate clearly and definitively know about myself. I will not put myself nor another person in that position again. Ever.

You the hit the proverbial nail on the head when you said that it's the children who suffer when they are brought into the world without the means (financial, emotional, time etc ...) to devote that which it takes to raise and parent a child. 

I don't know how to use the quote-thingy yet, so I can't put it here, but what you said regarding your experience(s) as an L&D nurse are heartbreakingly familiar. I can imagine how difficult it must be for you to deliver these little babies, knowing what type of environments await them. As if life's not already difficult enough! Ugh. 

I agree with you about the potential complications and risks associated with tubal-ligation versus vascectomys. There's a LOT to be said/written about that particular topic! Unfortunately (or fortunately, perhaps), I don't have the time. Suffice it to say that I am on board with your sentiments 100%!

Catherine


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