# working out



## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 4, 2008)

I wondered if any one elso on here goes to the gym on a regular basis. I am doing a few leg presses, a little on the fly, and row. 
I really would like to have a personal trainer, but experience at the gym has (sadly) already taught me that everyone there thinks I am there to loose weight. I am there to make myself stronger and better my stamina. To be honest it's the reaction of these kinds of people that make me want to quit going...but I really enjoy doing the exercise. I don't want to quit although the looks I get some days is tough.
Currently I am doing weights about 3 times a week and the eliptical for about 90 minutes set at 45-55%. I am getting a really good work out at this strength....but I feel like my upper body is being neglected.
If anyone on here has any experience, do you think you could give me a few suggestions as to what exercises would be good to make my shoulders, chest and upper back stronger? 

Thanks


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## Risible (Sep 4, 2008)

Actually, there are several threads on workouts here in the Health forum. Check out the Health forum's Most Useful Threads for a few, and then be sure and scroll through several pages looking for others. You're not alone in wanting to work out with fitness as a goal instead of weight loss, that's for sure!

And, welcome to Dimensions!


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Sep 4, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> I wondered if any one elso on here goes to the gym on a regular basis. I am doing a few leg presses, a little on the fly, and row.
> I really would like to have a personal trainer, but experience at the gym has (sadly) already taught me that everyone there thinks I am there to loose weight. I am there to make myself stronger and better my stamina. To be honest it's the reaction of these kinds of people that make me want to quit going...but I really enjoy doing the exercise. I don't want to quit although the looks I get some days is tough.
> Currently I am doing weights about 3 times a week and the eliptical for about 90 minutes set at 45-55%. I am getting a really good work out at this strength....but I feel like my upper body is being neglected.
> If anyone on here has any experience, do you think you could give me a few suggestions as to what exercises would be good to make my shoulders, chest and upper back stronger?
> ...




I feel you there. The first question out of their mouths is "Well, how much are you looking to lose?" Can you believe a fat person would actually like exercise?! Tres shocking! (that was sarcasm, and I think I'm getting the hang of it. oh no)


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## comperic2003 (Sep 4, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> I wondered if any one elso on here goes to the gym on a regular basis. I am doing a few leg presses, a little on the fly, and row.
> I really would like to have a personal trainer, but experience at the gym has (sadly) already taught me that everyone there thinks I am there to loose weight. I am there to make myself stronger and better my stamina. To be honest it's the reaction of these kinds of people that make me want to quit going...but I really enjoy doing the exercise. I don't want to quit although the looks I get some days is tough.
> Currently I am doing weights about 3 times a week and the eliptical for about 90 minutes set at 45-55%. I am getting a really good work out at this strength....but I feel like my upper body is being neglected.
> If anyone on here has any experience, do you think you could give me a few suggestions as to what exercises would be good to make my shoulders, chest and upper back stronger?
> ...



Initially, I wrote a really long and detailed response criticizing your entire program and explaining why it was setting you up for injury. In addition, I also provided an equally long response on how to improve it. But, when I went to submit the reply, I was told I needed to sign in first. Well, unfortunately, signing in deleted my entire reply.

So, instead of retyping it, I highly suggest you read these articles in order of importance

http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/training/step_away_from_the_treadmill&cr=mwaTraining

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1546556

http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/training/the_final_nail_in_the_cardio_coffin

http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/training/4_things_your_girlfriend_should_know


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## Bolshevik (Sep 4, 2008)

Hello BadKitty! I'm a rugby player so I frequent the gym regularly. For your chest, back and shoulders I'd suggest just building your upper body strength with weights and increase the weight as you get more used to it etc. Also, sit ups and press ups are a great means of working this part of the body!


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## bigpulve (Sep 4, 2008)

I advise for shoulders do shrugs or lateral arm raises.
chest dumb bell benching or horizontal flies.
back lat pull downs, military presses...

also tone down the cardio a bit.......30 mins is plenty if you are going to stay at your current weight...


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Initially, I wrote a really long and detailed response criticizing your entire program and explaining why it was setting you up for injury. In addition, I also provided an equally long response on how to improve it. But, when I went to submit the reply, I was told I needed to sign in first. Well, unfortunately, signing in deleted my entire reply.
> 
> So, instead of retyping it, I highly suggest you read these articles in order of importance
> 
> ...






I'm not really sure I understand what your trying to convey with the articles. Pardon my ignorance please.

The articles almost sound anti-exercise. But then maybe I just took it wrong.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

bigpulve said:


> I advise for shoulders do shrugs or lateral arm raises.
> chest dumb bell benching or horizontal flies.
> back lat pull downs, military presses...
> 
> also tone down the cardio a bit.......30 mins is plenty if you are going to stay at your current weight...




The only thing with thirty min (granted I do do the eliptical 7 days a week) is that I don't feel pushed enough. Granted getting to the 60 min mark is hell but once I am there the trip to ninty is all sweat and it actually feels really good.
I don't know if I could just make do with a 30 min work out or not...


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> I'm not really sure I understand what your trying to convey with the articles. Pardon my ignorance please.
> 
> The articles almost sound anti-exercise. But then maybe I just took it wrong.



The first article is detailing why cardio is doing your body more harm than good. It also states more effective ways of building stamina without sacrificing muscle and storing fat in the process.

The second article is detailing how dysfunctional and immobile people's joints are due to a lifetime of poor posture. Starting a workout program without addressing these joint problems first will almost always lead to serious injury and will always lead to reinforcing the problems you already have.

The third article, once again, explains why cardio is not that effective for your goals.

And the fourth article, stresses the importance of mobilizing the joint while bashing certain forms of exercise that are more dangerous than helpful. It also talks about why leg pressing is pretty poor exercise choice.

Once you realize what is wrong with your workout regimen and how it contradicts your goals, you can then work to build a safer, more effective one using these articles and the sites they are published on as a resource.


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## bigpulve (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> The only thing with thirty min (granted I do do the eliptical 7 days a week) is that I don't feel pushed enough. Granted getting to the 60 min mark is hell but once I am there the trip to ninty is all sweat and it actually feels really good.
> I don't know if I could just make do with a 30 min work out or not...


The best thing to do then is to move to a different cardio exercise....try the stair stepper or go on the treadmill.....I always found the elliptical to be the second easiest to do behind the bike. Also unless you are training for something more than 75 minutes of total exercise is really not needed......I bet a nice brisk walk at 3.0-3.5 miles an hour will get you tired.....


and that 30 minutes was just for the cardio....you can still do lifting after words. Also on the days you are not lifting then doing 60 minutes of cardio is fine.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

I do agree with the article about building muscle vs cardio, because I can personally feel a difference.  My question is this. The elipitcal that I use has a strenghth setting on it. It's nothing like the elplitcals I see advertised for the home gym or even the ones I have seen in some fancy gyms at hotels. Its a really big peice of machinery.
Any how.
Okay. So I should drop the eliptical down some and do more weights. I can do that I guess. I enjoy the weights too but mostly I stick to the machines because they are pretty well idiot proof.
It sounds like the articles sugges free weights over weight machines....


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> I do agree with the article about building muscle vs cardio, because I can personally feel a difference. My question is this. The elipitcal that I use has a strenghth setting on it. It's nothing like the elplitcals I see advertised for the home gym or even the ones I have seen in some fancy gyms at hotels. Its a really big peice of machinery.



Regardless of the piece of machinery you are using, steady-state cardio (what you are doing) is not the answer to your goals. 




No-No-Badkitty said:


> Any how.
> Okay. So I should drop the eliptical down some and do more weights. I can do that I guess. I enjoy the weights too but mostly I stick to the machines because they are pretty well idiot proof.
> It sounds like the articles sugges free weights over weight machines....



The articles are most definitely suggesting free weights over machines. Anything a weight machine can do, free weights can do better. And despite claims that machines are safer, if done properly, free weights are much safer and accommodate for differences in height, limb length etc. in a way machines cannot.

But most importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you must work to address your joint mobility issues and soft tissue quality. Not doing so, would be like building a house on an unstable and weak foundation. 

Look around the sites and check out the article libraries. They not only provide the best information on exercise but nutrition as well. Good luck and if you have any quesitons please don't hesitate to ask.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> But most importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you must work to address your joint mobility issues and soft tissue quality. Not doing so, would be like building a house on an unstable and weak foundation.
> .




To my knowledge, I don't have any joint or movement issues. My hands have problems but thats arthritis I have had for years. The rest of me is very limber. So I am not sure if those are the types of restictions you are talking about or not.


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> To my knowledge, I don't have any joint or movement issues. My hands have problems but thats arthritis I have had for years. The rest of me is very limber. So I am not sure if those are the types of restictions you are talking about or not.



I hate to sound presumptuous, but you probably do have joint and movement issues. The may not be causing you pain, but they are there, and should be corrected. More than likely, you cannot squat like this:







Key points being heels in complete contact with the floor, no weight on the toes or ball of the foot and torso near vertical

If you cannot squat like that, then you have a good amount of issues to address. Mainly, immobility at the hips and ankles, over reliance on the quads, and inactivation and weakening of the glutes.

The above picture is an example of an anatomically correct squat. Nearly everyone could do this at one point in their lives. You probably performed it as a baby. 

But life in a western society affords itself to sitting for extended periods throughout the day. Sitting for too long tends to tighten the hips and ankles, and weaken the glutes. That is why most people in a western society squat like this:






They are compensating for their lack of hip and ankle mobility by shifting their center of gravity over their toes in order to maintain an upright posture. This is wrong and it is dangerous.


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## Risible (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> I hate to sound presumptuous, but you probably do have joint and movement issues. The may not be causing you pain, but they are there, and should be corrected. More than likely, you cannot squat like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Comperic, not many fat people can squat like that; fat gets in the way. Are you obese or morbidly obese? Because many of the people on Dimensions are; if you're going to offer exercise advice to a fat person, be sure that it 
takes their size into account.

Kitty, your doctor is a good place to start for personal exercise advice. S/he is a professional, and knows your fitness level. There are many threads and posts here in the Health forum with anecdotal information on exercise and the fat person, as I pointed out above, including the specific targets that you mention in your original post.


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## bigpulve (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> I hate to sound presumptuous, but you probably do have joint and movement issues. The may not be causing you pain, but they are there, and should be corrected. More than likely, you cannot squat like this:
> 
> 
> Key points being heels in complete contact with the floor, no weight on the toes or ball of the foot and torso near vertical
> ...


Its really easy to assume someones physical abilities over the internet. Also the first person has their feet pointed out. If I saw him do this while squatting I would correct that. 

Also you need to realize that not everyone can do what a 120 lbs man can. I would like to know what degrees/schooling/or experience to be dispensing information like this?


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

bigpulve said:


> Its really easy to assume someones physical abilities over the internet.



When most of us live in a western country, yes, it is.



Risible said:


> Comperic, not many fat people can squat like that; fat gets in the way. Are you obese or morbidly obese? Because many of the people on Dimensions are; if you're going to offer exercise advice to a fat person, be sure that it
> takes their size into account.



Not many skinny people can squat like that either. Joint mobility plays a much greater role in one's ability to squat than weight does. As seen below in the two pictures.



bigpulve said:


> Also you need to realize that not everyone can do what a 120 lbs man can.



Fair enough. How about two 300+ pound men, then? 













bigpulve said:


> I would like to know what degrees/schooling/or experience to be dispensing information like this?



I am CSCS certified. But just don't take my word for it. Ask the leaders in the field like Michael Boyle, Charles Poliquin, Alwyn Cosgrove, Dan Jon, Cassandra Foresythe, Eric Cressey, Mike Robertson, Jen Heath and dozens of others about the right way to squat and the importance of joint mobility.

Oh, and what experience do you have to comment on the asian guy's feet position?



Risible said:


> Kitty, your doctor is a good place to start for personal exercise advice. S/he is a professional, and knows your fitness level. There are many threads and posts here in the Health forum with anecdotal information on exercise and the fat person, as I pointed out above, including the specific targets that you mention in your original post.



I would say your doctor can tell you if you are healthy enough to begin exercising but as far as recommending ways to accomplish your fitness goals, that is simply outside his or her field of expertise.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> I hate to sound presumptuous, but you probably do have joint and movement issues. The may not be causing you pain, but they are there, and should be corrected. More than likely, you cannot squat like this:
> s.




Um, yes I can. I can also put my toes in my ears.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

Comperic: 
Since I am a little put off with the weight trainer at the club I go to, could you possibly point me to some easy to follow sites that state how I should start with the free weights.
I am not doing any free weights now. On the weight machines I push aboug 50+ reps on the leg machine at 290, 70 lbs on the crunch machine, the reverse crunch (don't know what else to call it sorry) I do 190, on the row about 90 and on the leg curl 90. Not so many reps on the leg curl or forward crunch, I get about 20 and I am done.
Sorry if I don't use the right names for these machines...they don't have lables on them.
I am more than willing to do the freeweights. I do want to increase my strength.


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> Comperic:
> Since I am a little put off with the weight trainer at the club I go to, could you possibly point me to some easy to follow sites that state how I should start with the free weights.
> I am not doing any free weights now. On the weight machines I push aboug 50+ reps on the leg machine at 290, 70 lbs on the crunch machine, the reverse crunch (don't know what else to call it sorry) I do 190, on the row about 90 and on the leg curl 90. Not so many reps on the leg curl or forward crunch, I get about 20 and I am done.
> Sorry if I don't use the right names for these machines...they don't have lables on them.
> I am more than willing to do the freeweights. I do want to increase my strength.




This 10 page article detailing every step of a solid weightlifting program from the warm up (mobility drills and soft tissue work) to the free weight lifting sessions is complete with dozens of pictures and videos. While you absorb all of that I will look up some other articles.

http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/training/vixen_liftin_the_comprehensive_program

The only thing the article does not mention is proper foot wear. Nearly every athletic shoe has a 1.5 to 2 inch heel lift. This is unnatural and only creates muscular imbalances in the ankle. When lifting weights a shoe with a flat sole, like a chuck taylor, or a shoe with a very negligible heel lift, like a nike free, are much better options. Ideally, though, barefoot is the way to go, but most gyms don't allow that.


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## bigpulve (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> When most of us live in a western country, yes, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


6 years of weight lifting experience along with being trained on power lifting.....

I can squat well over 400 lbs.....


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Ideally, though, barefoot is the way to go, but most gyms don't allow that.




This is actually how I currently exercise. Barefoot. It is very difficult for me to wear shoes.


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

bigpulve said:


> I can squat well over 400 lbs.....



Congratulations.


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## tonynyc (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> I do agree with the article about building muscle vs cardio, because I can personally feel a difference. My question is this. The elipitcal that I use has a strenghth setting on it. It's nothing like the elplitcals I see advertised for the home gym or even the ones I have seen in some fancy gyms at hotels. Its a really big peice of machinery.
> Any how.
> Okay. So I should drop the eliptical down some and do more weights. I can do that I guess. I enjoy the weights too but mostly I stick to the machines because they are pretty well idiot proof.
> It sounds like the articles sugges free weights over weight machines....



*Pretty much what others have said that free weights is the way to go. 

No in terms of strength training...

1. Are you training alone? if so you might want to consider a set of solid dumbbells or kettlebells

2. the scheme for upper body training is low reps and making small increments in increasing the weights. 

3. you also might want to consider wearing shoes if you are doing your strength training- you don't want to injure your feet.

4. Now in terms of your strength training goals is it more 'weight training' (benching more - pressing more) etc. or 'functional strength' having more power to do the daily task? 

*





No-No-Badkitty said:


> To my knowledge, I don't have any joint or movement issues. My hands have problems but thats arthritis I have had for years. The rest of me is very limber. So I am not sure if those are the types of restictions you are talking about or not.



*
Don't forget to neglect your "hand health" - even if it means squeezing grippers-exercise balls- Chinese Boading or Iron palm balls which I sometimes use 
*


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you guys for all your wonderful input...I will start a new regime tomorrow. 30 min for cardio only and maybe an hour on the weights (if I can go that long) 


Thanks


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

tonynyc said:


> 3. you also might want to consider wearing shoes if you are doing your strength training- you don't want to injure your feet.



If she is training with any weight heavy enough to injure her bare foot, a shoe would not have done much. And besides, the risk of even dropping a weight on your foot is outweighed by the enourmous benefits of training barefooted.


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> Thank you guys for all your wonderful input...I will start a new regime tomorrow. 30 min for cardio only and maybe an hour on the weights (if I can go that long)
> 
> 
> Thanks



I think you missed the point of the articles I posted. But, ultimately, you do what you want.


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## tonynyc (Sep 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> If she is training with any weight heavy enough to injure her bare foot, a shoe would not have done much. And besides, the risk of even dropping a weight on your foot is outweighed by the enourmous benefits of training barefooted.



I guess as long as folks are going to assume the risk -but, I wouldn't reccommend it


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## comperic2003 (Sep 5, 2008)

tonynyc said:


> I guess as long as folks are going to assume the risk -but, I wouldn't reccommend it



But any weight heavy enough or held high enough to damage your bare foot is not gonna be stopped by a 1/4 inch of leather.


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## bigpulve (Sep 6, 2008)

Barefoot lifting is FTW......




I used to use wrestling shoes......that or converse work well.


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## LalaCity (Sep 6, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Not many skinny people can squat like that either. Joint mobility plays a much greater role in one's ability to squat than weight does. As seen below in the two pictures.



When I was at my heaviest, my knees were totally incapable of supporting my weight had I tried a squat like that. I would have completely blown them out.

I must say that I also do not get the sense that you know what it's like to be very overweight.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 6, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> I think you missed the point of the articles I posted. But, ultimately, you do what you want.




The thing is I like the cardio work out. I enjoy it. I can't see how it could be hurtful to do it?
Correct me if I'm wrong please.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 6, 2008)

I am slowly reading the articles. They are not wanting to all load for me.

But one thing I have a problem with is that they talk like I know what the hell a knee hug is and I don't. I don't see any examples of these exercises they are suggesting.


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## No-No-Badkitty (Sep 6, 2008)

Ok, did some of the lifting off the floor today. One of the guys at the gym was nice enough to show me position and such.
Discovered a logistical problem that maybe someone on here can help me with. I have no problems squating to get the bar but, where I am supposed to put my hands on the bar is an issue because my legs are so fat. I can't do the shoulder width as suggested, I have to much thigh in the way. Is there a way to modify this move safely or do something else that can stand in? where I have better reach.


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## comperic2003 (Sep 6, 2008)

No-No-Badkitty said:


> The thing is I like the cardio work out. I enjoy it. I can't see how it could be hurtful to do it?
> Correct me if I'm wrong please.



Do what you enjoy, but just know that the body will adapt to become more efficient at doing steady-state cardio. Meaning, as you increase your cardiovascular fitness, your body will burn fewer calories to complete the same amount of work while becoming more efficient at storing fat as a fuel source. Oh, and the whole time your body is burning fewer and fewer calories and learning to become better at storing fat, you are burning muscle too.



No-No-Badkitty said:


> I am slowly reading the articles. They are not wanting to all load for me.
> 
> But one thing I have a problem with is that they talk like I know what the hell a knee hug is and I don't. I don't see any examples of these exercises they are suggesting.



You can find videos of almost all of the mobility drills on either of the two sites I provided or elsewhere online.

Knee Hugs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGHHXH920_I



No-No-Badkitty said:


> Ok, did some of the lifting off the floor today. One of the guys at the gym was nice enough to show me position and such.
> Discovered a logistical problem that maybe someone on here can help me with. I have no problems squating to get the bar but, where I am supposed to put my hands on the bar is an issue because my legs are so fat. I can't do the shoulder width as suggested, I have to much thigh in the way. Is there a way to modify this move safely or do something else that can stand in? where I have better reach.



You might be better off doing a sumo deadlift. On page 8 of that article I gave ya, there is a video demonstrating one. The key is simply widening your stance while place your arms inside your legs.


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