# Are you socially retarded?



## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm not asking this to be offensive. I'm asking because I feel that I am, and was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

I feel like I'm stuck on a 7th grade level when interacting with men in social situations (I can interact with them in work situations just fine). I mean, I had to send a friend over to talk to a cute guy for me in Orlando, because there is no way I could do it (He wrote me an adorable note, too, which I still have - how lame is *that*?) 

He did comment to me later when we were talking that Mensans have no social skills at all. And being fat and smart - well, I wonder if that isn't a double whammy. I do prefer Mensa events to fat events, though, because Mensans aren't in the habit of having events where strangers lick whipped cream off of each other, though. (Not that there is anything wrong with that if that is how you want to interact with people. It just isn't *my* idea of a fun time, which doesn't have to match up with everyone else's idea of a fun time.) Also, it makes me very uncomfortable to be around what I refer to as the hypersexuality of fat women. I wonder if constantly being overtly and sometimes inappropriately sexual around men is not just as much a form of social retardation as the one I feel I suffer from. 

I don't know how many of you watch Big Brother, but they showed a long flirting sequence between Janey and Will last night, and it occurred to me I have NO idea how to do that. (If anyone else watches Big Brother and thinks of something to compare this too that more people may recognize, please post it. And I couldn't act like that if I tried. And it looks fun, and life affirming. And while I will never be drop dead gorgeous like she is (oh, how I would trade every ounce of my brains to look like that for..oh, a DAY), surely I can learn to flirt?

And I wonder if that is why I can't find a date, because I don't know how to react in social situations...thoughts?


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## Emma (Aug 28, 2006)

I can't flirt with men unless I know for a fact they like me. I'm shit in social situations, I don't know how to react when someone is coming onto me. I kinda withdraw into myself if i'm not drunk. I feel like they're making fun of me or something.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I'm not asking this to be offensive. I'm asking because I feel that I am, and was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.
> 
> I feel like I'm stuck on a 7th grade level when interacting with men in social situations (I can interact with them in work situations just fine). I mean, I had to send a friend over to talk to a cute guy for me in Orlando, because there is no way I could do it (He wrote me an adorable note, too, which I still have - how lame is *that*?)
> 
> ...




What is the hypersexuality of the fat women? 'could you explain that to me? I don't understand what you mean "to be innapropriately sexual in the company of men" 'cause its coming across as conflicted thoughts about sexuality (and flirting can be seen as innaproriate as well)
So you want to flirt, but not be a big flirt?


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Aug 28, 2006)

If I like someone and I'm not sure they like me, I 180* and freeze up like a pudding pop, physically. lol. If I like someone I think likes me or who seems "open" ... I can, more or less, be me.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> What is the hypersexuality of the fat women? 'could you explain that to me? I don't understand what you mean "to be innapropriately sexual in the company of men" 'cause its coming across as conflicted thoughts about sexuality (and flirting can be seen as innaproriate as well)
> So you want to flirt, but not be a big flirt?



Well, lets see. 

Some examples:

A get together I had for a now defunct BBW Yahoo Group at a Mexican restaurant:

One woman grabbed the male waiter by the "private parts" and copped a feel.

One woman (different one) asked the same waiter if he had ever had sex with a fat chick, and if he had called her the next day.

(I was so humiliated I never went back there. OMG. This, to me, is not "flirting." It is sexual harrassment, when you are talking about a person at work trying to do his job. I would not classify it as "flirting" period. I would classify groping anyone's private parts as 1. inappropriate or 2. heavy petting depending on the situation). 

I'm not going to say that a thin woman has never acted like this, because I am sure that they have. I have just seen it a lot more from fat women.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

Sounds like the girls were well lubricated...with alcohol


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> Sounds like the girls were well lubricated...with alcohol




Would you think that would be a good excuse if you were at work and someone was grabbing your private areas?


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Aug 28, 2006)

that must explain the clown dislikes... lol. "Can't sleep! Clown will eat me!" lmao. I think people have those clown phobias (it's not a fear or anything - they're just weird to me) because you can't really tell what they're thinking... how is that for potential thread hijack #3? And clowns just aren't funny 

 

I get nervous around people I can't read. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I become QUITE retarded. I momentarily forget basic etiquette like introducing this person to others or how to... uh, well, most anything physical like where to put my hands (table? chair? under my chin?... lol.) and get very nervous. It's a big test.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

ShakenBakeSharleen said:


> I get nervous around people I can't read. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I become QUITE retarded. I momentarily forget basic etiquette like introducing this person to others or how to... uh, well, most anything physical like where to put my hands (table? chair? under my chin?... lol.) and get very nervous. It's a big test.




I can't read anyone. Never have been able to.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

For those who don't watch BB, here is an example from YouTube (I should have searched that before posting my post).

Notice there is very little actual touching happening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4c4BUhMFLY


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Aug 28, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Would you think that would be a good excuse if you were at work and someone was grabbing your private areas?



Eeks, no. It's very inappropriate, alcohol or not! We're women, though. It's all skewed for us, Moonvine. I dunno if I would feel it were ok if I were a man, though. From what I hear, they love that sort of thing... I know not all are like this, though, and would be as taken aback as we are. Well, I hope he got a great tip, anyway. And that he liked it. LOL.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

Ok, I'll try to be serious for a moment or two, but then, back to the silly.

The behavior of these ladies was inappropriate, no doubt about it. I would be embarassed as well. It is not a reflection of the entire group and I can see that they obviously crossed a line.

But let's think of flirting, social interactions etc.

Everyone has their own sexual "speed", if you will. Some people are more reserved than others and everything in between that spectrum.

I don't find it helpful to compare and judge, rather than concentrate on what makes me unique and special. 

Men feel the sames pressures as we do, and I have found that a eye contact and a smile go a long way. Simple as that.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Aug 28, 2006)

The Obstreperous Ms. J said:


> Ok, I'll try to be serious for a moment or two, but then, back to the silly.
> 
> The behavior of these ladies was inappropriate, no doubt about it. I would be embarassed as well. It is not a reflection of the entire group and I can see that they obviously crossed a line.
> 
> ...



Absolutely! Language is, what, 90% nonverbal? 

Thank you, interpersonal communications course!  lol


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## butch (Aug 28, 2006)

I've got a couple of different thoughts in my head reading this thread, so if any of them hijack the discussion, please forgive.

First, as someone who can't even flirt properly here ONLINE at Dimensions, I know where you're coming from. For me, though, I look at it as being 'romantically immature' moreso than 'socially retarded.' Mostly because I think I handle myself pretty well socially, as long as it has nothing to do with sex/romance/intimacy. But yes, if attraction or good vibes or whatever enters the picture, I am at a huge loss as to how to behave. 

Which means that I have no advice to give, or at least no 'good' advice. I deal with my own insecurities by forcing myself to view sex/romance/intimacy as something that is less important than other things, even though at my weakest moments I know this is untrue.

However, I also know that I am not someone who thinks they are incapable or unworthy of love/companionship. I am very worthy, but I do believe that in order to keep that attitude, I need to continue focusing on what makes me happy today, and what makes me a better person today. I've had enough people in my life who have wanted to date me to know that I am desirable to someone else. I just need to be patient, and keep building the better, happier version of me that I am working on.

My other thought, moonvine, is: could you start a MENSA/BBW/BHM/Supporters group? Is that at all feasible? Is there already such a group, or a similar group? I don't know how MENSA works, but wonder if this is a possibility. Are there a fair number of fat folks at the MENSA conventions?

Ok, that it for now, fwiw.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

There is a great picture that I saw a long time ago, which was of a scene in a bar and the one thing that stood out was a "troll-like" figure, chatting up a group of ladies.
The next sequence of pictures was the same "troll" figure being replaced by each of these women.
The troll representing the insecurities that are a part of each and everyone.

I find it comforting to think that everyone feels the same way in these social interactions. It takes the pressure off.

and if the person whom you are inteacting is not responding positively to you is just that, one person, not the entire bar, party, society, etc.

Just one person; so chill. Sometimes you gel and sometimes its not there. Move on.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

Butch, that is a great idea, a MENSA BBW group!!!
Genius!
:bow:


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## butch (Aug 28, 2006)

Maybe I should be in MENSA, huh? Too bad I skipped school the day they tested our IQs.
Thanks, The Obstreperous Ms. J.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

butch said:


> My other thought, moonvine, is: could you start a MENSA/BBW/BHM/Supporters group? Is that at all feasible? Is there already such a group, or a similar group? I don't know how MENSA works, but wonder if this is a possibility. Are there a fair number of fat folks at the MENSA conventions?



Hi Butch,

Yes, I have started a Mensa SIG (Special Interest Group) called M-Fat-ic. It is for fat people, admirers, etc. 

There are lots of fat folks within Mensa and at Mensa conventions. There is also a fair amount of fat prejudice from some (not all). Which is actually why I started M-Fat-ic. I don't think any single FAs belong, though it is certainly not a requirement to disclose one's orientation to join.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

butch said:


> Maybe I should be in MENSA, huh? Too bad I skipped school the day they tested our IQs.



You can use SAT scores, MAT scores, GMAT, LSAT, and a bunch of other scores. 

I used my SAT scores. I made the exact score I needed to get in and no higher!


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 28, 2006)

I deal with very strong awkwardness in social situations that have romantic twists involving strangers. I'm a strong spirit and confident in work or political situations that call for me to organize, or speak, or just meet people. But the second I feel like someone is flirting with me, I usually struggle.

I've found that I combat that a lot with meeting people online. Once I've spent time talking with them, sharing pictures, making jokes, I typically feel confident enough to be myself and go for it. I haven't met a makey partner in RL in so long, I'm certain I've forgotten the skills.

When meeting people in RL, I have to admit I often wish I could ask them to email me or I wish I had their myspace to play around with, even when they are right in front of me! That just frightens me.

Moonvine, some of your comments almost make me wonder if a bit of flexibility might be in order? I give this advice because I need to swallow it too. You down on most situations where its common to meet people, and well, obviously, that's going to make it hard. 

I disagree with you on the hypersexualization of fat women, it's too blanketed. Avoiding bashes for these reasons may be hurting you in finding folks, you know? There's got to be a quiet table of thoughtful people in the corner that would be your speed!  Good luck to you.


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## Tad (Aug 28, 2006)

Am I socially retarded? Yes absolutely *raises hand* I'm a social retard. At least four common factors apply to me: asynchronous development, not really being a pack creature, atypical attraction, and having some reason to lack social confidence in early adolescene. I'll take those in inverse order.

In grade six I became interested in girls, starting getting acne, started having to wear glasses, realized that I was a little chubbier than most of the boys in my class, and discovered that I was a nerd. All of those seemed like reasons why girls would not be interested in me, so I assumed that girls were not interested in me. Naturally I therefore chose not to make a fool of myself by chasing after them. So I didn't practice those skills back then.

I realized right away that I preferred chubbier girls. I knew that this was out of the normal, and would be the subject of mockery--for me and any chubby girl I was interested in. So I hid this fact by generally staying out of the romance arena.

I've always been more of a 'cat' than a 'dog.' I'll mostly make up my own mind about what is right, what is interesting, etc. I've mellowed somewhat, but as a youth I never bothered to hang around people who did not interest me, and spending time gossipping about girls that I knew I'd never date didn't interest me. So I didn't pick up the second hand lessons that I could have.

Academically I was always ahead of my age group. By the time I was interested in girls, most books and shows aimed at my age level bored me, not so much that the plots were not of interest, but that writing tended to be pretty symplistic and obvious. At the same time, I was probably behind most of my peers in social development, so the social tools that a lot of the material I was reading was trying to model just whipped past me without registering. I don't think it was until I read some of Pier's Anthony Xanth and Phase stuff that I found material that I enjoyed reading which put relationships on a simple enough level for me to grok. Similarly, a lot of what my age peers did simply bored me, so I avoided it--but in so doing I missed all that practice of social and flirting skills.

In my case I began to realize my shortcomings while I was in university, and I backtracked some trying to fix some of it. I subjected myself to quite a few young adult novels (it helped that most were short enough to be sort of a reading snack). I read books on language use and on body language and on the basics of fashion. I took advantage of opportunities to watch teen oriented movies when they came along. Eventually I chose some activities specifically to meet more young women, so I could practice flirting, and maybe even get a casual date or two. I knew I was still weak in that whole area, but I figured I at least knew enough to start learning. As it happened I didn't get far in that last exercise, because I met an interesting woman who was interested in me, and who fortunately had sufficiently better social skills to get us past obstacles that would still have stymied me. I've not really had need to practice that skill set ever since, to my intense relief!


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## butch (Aug 28, 2006)

Hi Moonvine,

I'm so curious now about the Mensa SIG. Has it spawned any couples? Or even friends with benefits? In what way did the anti-fat attitudes of some mensa-ians (sp?) show up, and what types of things does the SIG do? Oh, I'm full of questions!


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## blueeyedevie (Aug 28, 2006)

Socially Retarded is such strong words. You can be so many things with in them, however I don't really think there is just one way to act. Of course there is bad manners and unruly actions but not the inability. Shyness or the over ability to do something is not *retarded* (a word I don't like to use ). 
I wonder if what you meant by "Hypersexuality and inappropiarely sexual around men" is something you feel for you inappropriate and while it is OK for some women You have labeled it not ok for all. Let me assure you Not just fat women or drunk fat women act that way as you described. I have plenty of thin friends and *back in the day* I have had plenty of moments I have wanted to go under the table due to embarrassing situations due to public sexuality. Some people are just OK with it. I use to be very (NOT Open) to even people displaying there bodies and now I think it is a beautiful thing. I think a lot of things are wonderful that I never did before. We are women and beautiful in our own right each and ever one of us. You may be no Janey but she isn't all that and a bag of chips either. She has flaws. All you have to do is find your comfort zone. My mother says I would flit with a tree if I thought it was listing. * I don't know I am doing it. I grew up the center of attention in a mostly male populated outer family and I suppose flirting or maybe being cute ** is a better way to put it with family is concerned and that flowed into flirting when I got into school so on so forth. I think for me My comfort zone is knowing I am a women, I am soft, girlie, and I use that. When other women around me act *out of order * I just think wow when looking on I must look like such the better lady. It's these mind games that one plays to get by, to flirt and to be socially what ever they truly wish to be. In fact I was suffering form sever anxiety less than three years ago. With these tips I recovered and am so much better. Lastly remember you have something the other person wants, you are the holder of the gift. Let them unwrap it, and everything else just comes naturally. Conversation, movement etc. It works in both female and male sistuations I have learned.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm running to go get a bag of chips, BRB


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

There are days when I'm not Janey either.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

butch said:


> Hi Moonvine,
> 
> I'm so curious now about the Mensa SIG. Has it spawned any couples? Or even friends with benefits? In what way did the anti-fat attitudes of some mensa-ians (sp?) show up, and what types of things does the SIG do? Oh, I'm full of questions!



Hi butch,

The Mensa SIG is very small. If it has spawned any couples or friends with benefits no one has told me. I need to take more time and nurture it. 

Lets see. In what way did the anti-fat attitudes of some Mensans show up?

Well, I joined the GenX SIG mailing list (I am a member of the GenX SIG by virtue of my birthdate. Don't ask me how a birthdate can qualify as a special interest; it makes about as much sense to me as waging war against an emotion. Anyway, one of the first things I read was that fat people should not wear spandex. So, I kinda went off. That thread is how I met my friend Lauren in Seattle, though, so it wasn't all bad.

There were some later threads with more anti-fat bigotry (fat is unhealthy, fat people are unattractive, etc. etc.) I didn't leave the mailing list until I saw some of the cruelest comments about Katrina I can remember seeing. I was already depressed and feeling helpless about Katrina and seeing some of the stuff they were saying just blew my mind. There is actually an avowed FA who is a member of that SIG. Unfortunately, he's also quite a jerk, though I hear he is also good in bed. He propositioned me for sex at the New Orleans AG, I turned him down, and now he attacks me verbally whenever possible. He also had another fat chick with him within 6 hours of me turning him down - I mean, it isn't as if we are in short supply, after all.

Far as what our SIG does - right now it is just an email SIG. I may schedule an in person meeting at the next AG, but as I have found true of most such things, most of the members consist of single women and married couples.


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## lemmink (Aug 28, 2006)

I am completely socially retarded. Some of the time I can fake it - a lot of the time I just can't. I always feel awkward around people. In fact 90% of the time I want to run away from people screaming and waving my hands in the air. I also have no idea of how to flirt or how to tell if someone is open to flirting. My bf thought I wasn't interested in him at all when we first met; I thought he found me physically repugnant. Thank god for the internet, on that account...

I have no tricks or tips to help with this kind of social retardation. When I find a situation I'm uncomfortable in, I leave at the soonest opportunity (or just don't go). Evasion is the key to my sanity, but it likely won't help you get a date.


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## Emma (Aug 28, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, lets see.
> 
> Some examples:
> 
> ...




I totally agree. At the two BBW parties I've been to I've found the majority of the women are oversexed and very loud and proud about it. Copping feels of guys, throwing themselves all over them and generally acting desperate. They do all that then have sex with the guy and wonder why they don't call them the next day. I don't know what it is, maybe it's because they've hardly ever in situations where they are around lots of men who find them attractive and it's overwhelming for them. I've seen it too in groups of 'office friends' too. The fat woman always seems to be the loudest, with a cackling laugh, grabbing and flirting with the men and being overly loud. Like some sort of giant exageration of their personality maybe? Or maybe thats how they think that the thin girls act and thats why they act like that?

Either way I've never been back. I felt way too overshaddowed. Even if I was talking to a guy another woman or two would come up and be so loud and blatently sexual that the guy would either be into them because he wants sex or would run away. My friend that I went with was absolutly terrified of these women. 

Now I don't think every fat woman is like that but it seems a lot when they get together in groups are very oversexual. I hope this didn't cause offence.


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## Xenophon (Aug 28, 2006)

"Hypersexual fat women" sounds very pleasant 

I'm not a free agent now, but I would have loved it when I was younger. Alas, I always had great difficulty finding BBW.


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Moonvine, some of your comments almost make me wonder if a bit of flexibility might be in order? I give this advice because I need to swallow it too. You down on most situations where its common to meet people, and well, obviously, that's going to make it hard.



Hi AFG,

Well...I dunno. I have tried them. I went to 2 Austin bashes and 2 or 3 of TxsClassy's (and boy, were they ever NOT classy - unless you call getting so drunk you defecate in the pool and it has to be drained classy) events. And I really didn't enjoy them. I was by turns horrified and bored. I do feel like I gave it an honest effort, though. 

I would also say that if the only place fat women can meet men is at bashes and events specifically for fat women - isn't there a problem there? 

I'm going to the sports bar on Saturday. Yay!


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## Carrie (Aug 28, 2006)

One thing to consider re. people behaving in what we/you/I might consider an "outrageous" or socially inappropriate manner - you're more likely to remember them than anyone else, simply due to their flamboyant behavior. You may go to a bash/event with hundreds of nice people who are more your speed, but the five to ten who are falling down drunk and being very loud or obnoxious or whatever are the ones you're most likely to remember, simply by virtue of their effect on you and others there.


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## Jane (Aug 28, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, lets see.
> 
> Some examples:
> 
> ...


Yes, that was sexual harrassment.


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 28, 2006)

Carrie said:


> One thing to consider re. people behaving in what we/you/I might consider an "outrageous" or socially inappropriate manner - you're more likely to remember them than anyone else, simply due to their flamboyant behavior. You may go to a bash/event with hundreds of nice people who are more your speed, but the five to ten who are falling down drunk and being very loud or obnoxious or whatever are the ones you're most likely to remember, simply by virtue of their effect on you and others there.



This is what I'm thinking/wondering. I've *never* been to a bash, and--wow--Moonvine, you've got some pretty yucky stories! But maybe the pool defecating crowd may have drowned out (ha!) some nice folks?

I've always found that I meet people in coffee shops.

Ugh, I don't know what I'm talking about, this is like the blind leading the blind. 

Yay for going to a sports bar! Have fun


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## moonvine (Aug 28, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> This is what I'm thinking/wondering. I've *never* been to a bash, and--wow--Moonvine, you've got some pretty yucky stories! But maybe the pool defecating crowd may have drowned out (ha!) some nice folks?



Wanna hear the one about the sperm in the hot tub? I mean I know it happens, but ew.


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 28, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Wanna hear the one about the sperm in the hot tub? I mean I know it happens, but ew.



No, because I'm still young enough that it wouldn't be good for me to be anymore jaded than I already am.

(does it float?)


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## Jane (Aug 28, 2006)

No, I'm not. However, I fought like hell to get here. I made myself talk to people when I felt uncomfortable. I've made it my point to convert people who initially seemed put off by me.

Now, I don't give a rats ass, and usually can find friends in any crowd.


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## Zandoz (Aug 28, 2006)

Definitely socially challenged here...not just in the relationship/romantic realm...pretty universally. Not only do I usually have no idea what to say, on the rare occasion that I do, I can't get it out. Between having a difficulty with verbalization, and an almost non-existent short term memory, live interaction is difficult for me, and those I interact with. It's hard seeing the frustration of those around me...including my wife...when I frequently can't complete a sentence. 

Also, although I'm pretty good at reading folks when it comes to their interactions with others, when it comes to interactions with me, I'm totally oblivious. This was made humorously obvious when twice my wife has worked with women that I worked with in the past...both admitted to her that they were interested in me "back in the day"...and one admitted an outright crush. In both cases I was totally clueless over the whole multi-year time I worked with the ladies.

On the issue of the behavior of some of the ladies in social group settings that's being debated, remember, the propensity for outrageous (and sometimes inappropriate) behavior increases exponentially with the size of the group...gender or size has no bearing.


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## JMNYC (Aug 28, 2006)

Only to the degree that the conversation is dominated by loud people talking about inane things. Sometimes I just say nothing, put on my reporter's cap and say, "Ok, so you're here to listen and absorb and observe."

I was completely silent for two weeks once during a course. Best two weeks I ever spent. I realized how much of what came out of my mouth was either inconsequential, a lie or over-the-top of something else.


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Aug 28, 2006)

It's kinda hard to have a conversation at a bash, with all of the music blaring over it.
Seriously, ever try to have a quiet conversation in any situation where you are competing with the incessant beats in surround sound?

Naturally, you match the decibel level just to get heard.

That's what I'm saying.


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## ripley (Aug 28, 2006)

Yes, I am socially retarded. I often don't know what to say, or feel that what I have said is embarrassing or weird. I don't know when guys are flirting with me unless they are pretty blatant. And I'm afraid my flirting is too strong or inappropriate. 

I think the hypersexuality you're referring to has it's roots in a couple of areas. I think that often fat women have been looked over for so long that when they do get in a situation where they are comfortable and sex is a real possibility, they go a little wild. Also, I think that because there are so fewer FAs than fat women that it fosters a quite cut-throat competition among the women. I think this escalates overtly sexual behavior...the women ramp it up so they can "win." It must be flattering to a lot of men to feel in such high demand. When I first found Dimensions I overcompensated for my lack of real life sexual experience. It soured quickly, and I'm glad. 

I have tried to look at Dimensions chat and forums as opportunities to practice my flirting. It's not gone well, lol. There is a cute young FA poster here who a lot of women flirt with. I tried it...not because I wanted anything with him, but because I saw other women doing it and thought I could too, without it appearing that I was serious. The guy ignored me, and one of the women that flirted with him a lot basically said I was "aggressive and unseemly." Ouch. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut since then. I don't have any other ideas on where to practice flirting though.


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## 3CatsAnd1Fish (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm just fat 'n stupid. 

Just barely a high school graduate, that all I am. I avoid social situations at all costs. I've been tested, retested, then tested again just to make sure. But I've never seen the results. They must've been _that_ bad. I did have a few teachers say I was worthless and one said I was an incompetent, if that tells you anything.

So yeah, I guess you could say I'm a social retard. And an academic retard. A physical retard. Etc. etc. etc...


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## sweetnnekked (Aug 28, 2006)

CurvyEm said:


> I can't flirt with men unless I know for a fact they like me. I'm shit in social situations, I don't know how to react when someone is coming onto me. I kinda withdraw into myself if i'm not drunk. I feel like they're making fun of me or something.



Ditto, except with women!


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## AnnMarie (Aug 28, 2006)

No, I am not. I've always had a rich social life, and I don't consider a woman's ability to flirt or be aggressive/outgoing with men part of social retardation. I mean, I can speak to them and have conversations, hitting on them doesn't come easy, but I don't think it's a retardation issue. It's simply that I'm a shy girl when it comes right down to it, and putting myself out there isn't easy - I think I'd be similar no matter the size.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (Aug 28, 2006)

I wouldnt' say that all Mensa people or all extremely intelligent non-Mensa people are socially retarded. After all, there isn't only one correct way to socialize. 

Some of the women at the BBW events are hypersexual, and I would definitely agree that perhaps it's because the best way to find men who like fat women is at the events. And I would also agree with what the previous poster said about the cutthroat behavior. Hypersexuality is not unique to fat women, though. I know fat women who are definitely not like that. I think hypersexuality depends on the person and on his/her attitude about sexuality.






moonvine said:


> I'm not asking this to be offensive. I'm asking because I feel that I am, and was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.
> 
> I feel like I'm stuck on a 7th grade level when interacting with men in social situations (I can interact with them in work situations just fine). I mean, I had to send a friend over to talk to a cute guy for me in Orlando, because there is no way I could do it (He wrote me an adorable note, too, which I still have - how lame is *that*?)
> 
> ...


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## moonvine (Aug 29, 2006)

AnnMarie said:


> It's simply that I'm a shy girl when it comes right down to it, and putting myself out there isn't easy - I think I'd be similar no matter the size.




I wonder if I had been a beautiful woman, and constantly been told I was beautiful since I was a very young girl, if it would come easy to me? I will never know, but I do wonder.


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## moonvine (Aug 29, 2006)

ripley said:


> Yes, I am socially retarded. I often don't know what to say, or feel that what I have said is embarrassing or weird. I don't know when guys are flirting with me unless they are pretty blatant. And I'm afraid my flirting is too strong or inappropriate.



Yes, guys have to be really blatant for me to figure it out.



> I think the hypersexuality you're referring to has it's roots in a couple of areas. I think that often fat women have been looked over for so long that when they do get in a situation where they are comfortable and sex is a real possibility, they go a little wild.



I dunno, I think this is a self-esteem issue. Sex is always a real possibility. It is about as hard for a woman to get a man to have sex with her as it is to get a dog to chase a cat. There are at least 10 men on my Yahoo IM list who would immediately come to my house and have sex with me at any time (unfortunately, they wouldn't be willing to actually take me out in public, so that's a no go for me). Not sure how that is different from having a one nighter with someone at a bash, though.



> Also, I think that because there are so fewer FAs than fat women that it fosters a quite cut-throat competition among the women. I think this escalates overtly sexual behavior...the women ramp it up so they can "win." It must be flattering to a lot of men to feel in such high demand.



I think this is a real problem, and one that people don't want to talk about. The women want to have this fantasy that there are plenty of FAs to go around, when that isn't the reality at all, and why would them men want to mess up a good thing? And yeah, I think it is more than flattering....I mean, imagine how you would feel if you went to an event and had 30-40 men interested in you and competing over you. I don't know how I would act, that's for sure.



> I have tried to look at Dimensions chat and forums as opportunities to practice my flirting. It's not gone well, lol. There is a cute young FA poster here who a lot of women flirt with. I tried it...not because I wanted anything with him, but because I saw other women doing it and thought I could too, without it appearing that I was serious. The guy ignored me, and one of the women that flirted with him a lot basically said I was "aggressive and unseemly." Ouch. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut since then. I don't have any other ideas on where to practice flirting though.



Oh dear, I can't imagine. I don't think that any forum where typing is involved is a good place to practice flirting, for me, since flirting seems to rely a great deal on body language, eye contact, etc. The only idea I can think of to practice flirting is, say, someone you don't really like, so you won't care if you are rejected. It seems kinda mean to do that, though, what if they ended up really liking you?

There needs to be a school for this sort of stuff.


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## Tina (Aug 29, 2006)

Hmmm... I don't think so. I can sometimes be flirted with and not get it until later, but I don't think that makes me socially retarded. Because I grew up with more guy friends than girl friends, I'm pretty comfortable talking with men. Thing is, some guys are just not used to women talking with them that they think I'm hitting on them, which, uh, is not the situation. These guys I can do without. But mainly, I'm just rather shy -- most of the time. Sometimes, you'd never know that I'm shy by nature, but I'm generally rather a quiet person anyway, so between not being a big talker and being shy, perhaps I seem socially retarded at times, I dunno.


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## missaf (Aug 29, 2006)

Total tomboy here. I relate so well to men, I'm one of the guys, so it's hard to get dates! :doh: 

That being said, when it does fall into place, it's a wonderful beautiful thing :bow:


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## Theatrmuse/Kara (Aug 29, 2006)

Jane said:


> Now, I don't give a rats ass, and usually can find friends in any crowd.



Don't ya'll just LOVE Jane! She continues to continually ROCK this place!

Here's to ya, sista Jane!:bow: 

Once again..." you must spread more reputation points around before....blah, blah,!"
Kara


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## Mini (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm a hardcore introvert and fairly smart. I can read people pretty dang well, but I'm usually too nervous around strangers to put it to use.


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## Jane (Aug 29, 2006)

Theatrmuse/Kara said:


> Don't ya'll just LOVE Jane! She continues to continually ROCK this place!
> 
> Here's to ya, sista Jane!:bow:
> 
> ...


Thank you, Kara.

One thing I had to realize....while I may be REALLY important to ME, I'm not that darn important to a group of strangers. They won't remember what I said, they will simply come away with an impression made in the first five seconds. Most will never see me again, and the rest won't recognize me again.


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## Zandoz (Aug 29, 2006)

ripley said:


> I have tried to look at Dimensions chat and forums as opportunities to practice my flirting. It's not gone well, lol. There is a cute young FA poster here who a lot of women flirt with. I tried it...not because I wanted anything with him, but because I saw other women doing it and thought I could too, without it appearing that I was serious. The guy ignored me, and one of the women that flirted with him a lot basically said I was "aggressive and unseemly." Ouch. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut since then. I don't have any other ideas on where to practice flirting though.



Well Ripley, for what ever it's worth, I've always seen you as one of the shining stars in chat...one of the people that are the reasons it is my home away from home. If you ever get the urge for some flirt target practice, that's target duty it would be an honor to volunteer for....and if anybody gives you a hard time about it, either refer them to this post, or simply tell them to take a flying squat. Now no more talk about keeping your mouth shut, OK? {{{{Ripley}}}}


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm very good at socializing, but I'm terribly shy. I limit it to an internal process and talk through it. It helped me to become a good listener, and while good listeners don't fill up the conversation, they do pay attention, respond, and ask questions.


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## Ample Pie (Aug 29, 2006)

I am socially retarded. But I'm also a good (and equal opportunity) flirt.

It's beyond that stage where I'm totally lost.


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## Mercedes (Aug 29, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I'm very good at socializing, but I'm terribly shy. I limit it to an internal process and talk through it. It helped me to become a good listener, and while good listeners don't fill up the conversation, they do pay attention, respond, and ask questions.


 
I'm pretty much like that too. I can never get myself into a chat room. MSN PERHAPS but chatroom??? :shocked: :doh: 

I do read though... and analyse... and read again... research... then read once more, and research once again...


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 29, 2006)

Friends and I were just the other day talking about social retardation among some in the fat community, Moonvine. Sexuality and flirting didn't come up, but I think some of what you describe might be attributable to the limited social experience sometimes associated with being fat, or more commonly, with growing up fat. Those issues seem easily fixable to me, through time spent with the opposite sex (and being reminded to relax and _enjoy_). I believe the bigger problems, though, lie with those feeding nastier stereotypes through unstable behavior which involves even those outside their sexual interest.

Interesting and important topic, I think, and I wish more psychiatric practitioners specialized in its treatment. I'm afraid even fat people who don't suffer from it, pay for it in other ways.


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## Jane (Aug 29, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> Friends and I were just the other day talking about social retardation among some in the fat community, Moonvine. Sexuality and flirting didn't come up, but I think some of what you describe might be attributable to the limited social experience sometimes associated with being fat, or more commonly, with growing up fat. Those issues seem easily fixable to me, through time spent with the opposite sex (and being reminded to relax and _enjoy_). I believe the bigger problems, though, lie with those feeding nastier stereotypes through unstable behavior which involves even those outside their sexual interest.
> 
> Interesting and important topic, I think, and I wish more psychiatric practitioners specialized in its treatment. I'm afraid even fat people who don't suffer from it, pay for it in other ways.


I had to lecture a 65 year old man on "Personal Space" this weekend. He has great ideas, implements them well, but once he's up in your face, you can't listen all you can think is "BACK UP DAMMIT."


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 29, 2006)

Jane said:


> I had to lecture a 65 year old man on "Personal Space" this weekend. He has great ideas, implements them well, but once he's up in your face, you can't listen all you can think is "BACK UP DAMMIT."


Ain't it the worst? I once sponsored an Eastern European political asylee, who needed to find work and housing in order to bring his family to the US. He was quite chic and cultured, but his refusal to use deodorant was keeping him from getting hired. 

_That's_ an unpleasant conversation to have to have with a fellow grown-up.

I infuriated him, but it changed his life for the better. I sometimes think of that when I see socially stunted adults living smaller and/or more troubled lives than need be. I wish someone close to them would do that terribly uncomfortable thing and help them (and those around them) to be happier. Sometimes it's as simple as a single conversation. 

I honestly think it's just that easy. And just that hard.


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## moonvine (Aug 29, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> Ain't it the worst? I once sponsored an Eastern European political asylee, who needed to find work and housing in order to bring his family to the US. He was quite chic and cultured, but his refusal to use deodorant was keeping him from getting hired.
> 
> _That's_ an unpleasant conversation to have to have with a fellow grown-up.
> 
> ...



I think when a person has that conversation with you....well, someone had that conversation with me.

He says I have too many cats ("too many cats" like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I do have a lot of cats. However, most of the women I work with in cat rescue with as many or even *god forbid* more cats are married).

He says my shyness comes off as arrogance, and that I overexplain things. He says that he dislikes conversing with me because I don't read social skills well and don't take my turn in conversations (and that it is even worse on the phone). According to him I always think I am right, and that I do think about things but usually end up deciding I was right to begin with. My voice is loud and booming and when I'm quiet I listen too intently and intimidate people that way. And my hair sucks. Oh yeah, and I have 1970's morals and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to tolerate that, and I have too much need for personal space and might as well be wearing a t-shirt that says "emotionally unavailable." I think I have covered all of it.

So now, I have to wonder how much of that was true..and what is true in that regard. I mean if 99% of people agree that I have a need for too much personal space, there's still the 1% that doesn't agree. 

Then there's the theory that the things that bug us most in other people are the things that we do ourselves. I can tell you that this guy always thinks he's right and it drives me nuts. 

I wish it were as simple as me not using deoderant. (I do use deoderant by the way).

Of course my other friends were horrified by his statements, but when I wonder why men don't talk to me, it is of no use to say "I don't know why men don't talk to you; you're beautiful and smart and blah blah." It is nice to hear, but not useful. If I was that beautiful, I'd have men all over me, and I don't. So I really need to hear things like that, but I'm having a difficult time filtering out what is real, and what isn't.


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## Jane (Aug 29, 2006)

My answers:

1) I HAD too many cats
2) I don't take my turn in conversations. What, you can't keep up? Gee, you should try to talk with me and a group of my friends, your head would explode.
3) YAY for 70's morals.
4) My hair sucks.
5) People are intimidated by LISTENING? Okay, that's a new one.
6) My voice is loud and booming.

Gee, never introduce me to this guy. Remember, on top of all that, I have a 2x4.


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## ripley (Aug 29, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I dunno, I think this is a self-esteem issue. Sex is always a real possibility. It is about as hard for a woman to get a man to have sex with her as it is to get a dog to chase a cat. There are at least 10 men on my Yahoo IM list who would immediately come to my house and have sex with me at any time (unfortunately, they wouldn't be willing to actually take me out in public, so that's a no go for me). Not sure how that is different from having a one nighter with someone at a bash, though.


 
What I meant about it being a real possibility is hard to describe. I guess what I mean is that at FA/BBW events, it could be the first time that fat women can feel like they flirt and put out a sexual vibe in a safe environment. It's pretty safe in terms of not being laughed at or scorned. The rub is how to temper that...how not to go overboard and keep ramping it up. It escalates sometimes, I think, in an effort to keep male attention.


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## Santaclear (Aug 29, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well...I dunno. I have tried them. I went to 2 Austin bashes and 2 or 3 of TxsClassy's (and boy, were they ever NOT classy - unless you call getting so drunk you defecate in the pool and it has to be drained classy) events. And I really didn't enjoy them. I was by turns horrified and bored. I do feel like I gave it an honest effort, though.



I was part of the group who were defecating in the pool. Several of us were actually Mensa members and as I understood it we were protesting um, poor treatment of the cleaning staff by management.  

(I won't answer the question about whether I'm socially retarded 'cos I can't understand it.)


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 30, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think when a person has that conversation with you....well, someone had that conversation with me.
> 
> He says I have too many cats ("too many cats" like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I do have a lot of cats. However, most of the women I work with in cat rescue with as many or even *god forbid* more cats are married).
> 
> ...


While there may be usable points in there, Moonvine, this man's advice may be more personal than universal. You have too many cats _for him_. Too shy _for him_. Hair doesn't suit _his_ tastes. Is there a suitable partner out there who may enjoy the kitties and the shyness and the Moonvine-y hair? Surely.

His advice may have been crap. But even in a pile of dung, there are seeds which will grow to be grand and mighty trees. One day when you're having a nice, cold beer with your perfect mate, under the shade of your tree, you might be glad you fished through the shit for that seed.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Aug 30, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I wish it were as simple as me not using deoderant. (I do use deoderant by the way).
> 
> Of course my other friends were horrified by his statements, but when I wonder why men don't talk to me, it is of no use to say "I don't know why men don't talk to you; you're beautiful and smart and blah blah." It is nice to hear, but not useful. If I was that beautiful, I'd have men all over me, and I don't. So I really need to hear things like that, but I'm having a difficult time filtering out what is real, and what isn't.



First of all, kudos on your non-stinky pits! 

Second of all, on the not being beautiful as the reason for no attention, well, not true. I'm cute and I don't get all that much attention from men. Why? I'm frigid, often appear authoratative, don't play games until I get to know people, and generally don't have a lot of patience with others.

On the other hand, I've seen some ick women get loads of attention. (I like women so I can say this.) As you pointed out, many women (not just fat ones) are hypersexual, and this appeals to male ego, and some guys are just horny and not picky.


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## moonvine (Aug 30, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> First of all, kudos on your non-stinky pits!
> 
> Second of all, on the not being beautiful as the reason for no attention, well, not true. I'm cute and I don't get all that much attention from men. Why? I'm frigid, often appear authoratative, don't play games until I get to know people, and generally don't have a lot of patience with others.
> 
> On the other hand, I've seen some ick women get loads of attention. (I like women so I can say this.) As you pointed out, many women (not just fat ones) are hypersexual, and this appeals to male ego, and some guys are just horny and not picky.




Well, TSL, seems you would have that dommely quality that would attract a certain portion of the male population to you. 

No one will ever be able to convince me that I would not get more male attention if I looked like this:







Rather than this:







If there's a god and she's at all merciful, I'll be a lot closer to the former in my next life, though.


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 30, 2006)

moonvine said:


> No one will ever be able to convince me that I would not get more male attention if I looked like this:



Moonvine, I want to try to convince you you're wrong, but this is one of those things, _you've_ got to believe it, not me.


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## moonvine (Aug 30, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Moonvine, I want to try to convince you you're wrong, but this is one of those things, _you've_ got to believe it, not me.



But it is empircally obvious. She's had at least 3 boyfriends in the past year (one of whom, by the way, is a current NFL player) and I haven't had a date. 

There may indeed be men out there who find me more attractive than her. But they are 1. in the minority 2. not stepping forward.

Hell, I'd do her, and I'm a straight girl.


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 30, 2006)

moonvine said:


> But it is empircally obvious. She's had at least 3 boyfriends in the past year (one of whom, by the way, is a current NFL player) and I haven't had a date.
> 
> There may indeed be men out there who find me more attractive than her. But they are 1. in the minority 2. not stepping forward.
> 
> Hell, I'd do her, and I'm a straight girl.



Empirically obvious! Woman your science is messed up!

I'm bi and I think she's gross, but that's just me. I'd choose you, but with more confidence. That's the ticket.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 30, 2006)

moonvine said:


> But it is empircally obvious. She's had at least 3 boyfriends in the past year (one of whom, by the way, is a current NFL player) and I haven't had a date.
> 
> There may indeed be men out there who find me more attractive than her. But they are 1. in the minority 2. not stepping forward.
> 
> Hell, I'd do her, and I'm a straight girl.



So you play with the hand you've been dealt, hon. You have a lovely smile, adorable apple cheeks, intelligence, and from what I've seen in the last two years, a good sense of humor & job/personal stability. One other thing I've noticed, and I hope you will understand that I say this with only good intentions: You appear to have a bit of a fatalistic attitude. So you're not "model" gorgeous. Most of us aren't. My own mother calls me a Barbra Streisand look-alike  ... and that's on my good days. I spent most of my life weighing far more than the "average" man finds attractive (whatever the hell average means). I'm still happily married, and I know that if that were to change tomorrow, I'd have no trouble attracting another man - if that is what I wanted. I know what my weaknesses are, but I choose to focus on my strengths. 

I know what you are trying to say, and you haven't been soliciting advise or tips/self-esteem boosters. But in all the time I've known you, I've seen a lot of negativity as related to yourself (you have no problem being kind & encouraging & supportive of other people). If I'm seeing it on a message board, I can only imagine that people around you are seeing it in you. It's not a quality that other people find attractive. 

I really, really hope that I haven't offended you, because that is SO not what I intended to do. I like you a lot, I just wish you saw yourself in a more positive light.


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 30, 2006)

What a sweet, happy face you have, Moonvine! Thanks for posting that.

About attracting male attention: at what price? And those who'd sniff around you based solely on your looks would be meat heads anyway, right? You wanna meat head?

About the very pretty: I've known some, and am related to a few. They often have less motivation to develop themselves in other areas, and therefore sometimes don't. Thus that "skin deep" thing. You don't want that, either.

You're obviously brimming with goodness and compassion, Moonvine. You'll find an FA looking for that. The woman in the first photo will have more dates and perhaps more smiles on the street, but true happiness? Probably gonna be harder for her to find than for you.


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## Jane (Aug 30, 2006)

Moonvine, I'm sending you a PM.


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## Friday (Aug 31, 2006)

> Oh yeah, and I have 1970's morals and it is unreasonable to expect anyone to tolerate that,



Bet you dollars to donuts that this is his real problem and the rest is just his insecurity. I mean heaven freakin' forbid that a mere woman think she might be right and a man be wrong.

Any guy who tell's you he's not interested 'cuz' you're not putting out ain't worth the time of day (and incidentally is almost gauranteed to be shit in bed).

p.s. I'm sure the blond is a nice person but take away the hair dye, the professional make up job, the fake tan, the expensive clothes, the personal trainer, the professional photographer and the airbrushing and you might be surprised.


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## Ericthonius (Aug 31, 2006)

Friday said:


> p.s. I'm sure the blond is a nice person but take away the hair dye, the professional make up job, the fake tan, the expensive clothes, the personal trainer, the professional photographer and the airbrushing and you might be surprised.




You forgot the contact lenses and bad nose-job, too.

_{Can a man say something catty??}_


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## Friday (Aug 31, 2006)

> {Can a man say something catty??}
> 
> You forgot the contact lenses and bad nose-job, too.



You go Mister. :bow:
I don't know that her eyes are bad and she may have started with that nose but no biggie. I'd rather see Moonvine any time.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Aug 31, 2006)

1) You're very pretty, MV.

2) Yeah, so the model would get more attention. 

I've played second banana to my fairly famous cousin in this family for all my life. She's been a model, actress (google _On Edge_), ice skater, etc. She's beautiful. I'm realistic; she's absolutely more beautiful than I am. However, I've got a lot of things Chrisha hasn't... I'm more educated, better-mannered, I earn my OWN way, I understand the concept of commitment, I don't seek sugar daddies... Chrisha's very intelligent, but she's a spoiled brat, so those folks who bypass me to talk to my cousin may very well return to talk to the embittered pale chick who doesn't smile much until you get to know her. Certainly, the people I want to date won't bypass a plainer but nicer girl for a silly ass.


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 31, 2006)

Friday said:


> Any guy who tell's you he's not interested 'cuz' you're not putting out ain't worth the time of day (and incidentally is almost gauranteed to be shit in bed).


"'70s morals" means not putting out? I recall a lot more putting out in the '70s than I see today.

I figured "'70s morals" meant having polite roller boogie manners, and not returning your polyester shirt to the Chess King after you'd worn it to the disco.


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## moonvine (Aug 31, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> "'70s morals" means not putting out? I recall a lot more putting out in the '70s than I see today.
> 
> I figured "'70s morals" meant having polite roller boogie manners, and not returning your polyester shirt to the Chess King after you'd worn it to the disco.




Yeah, I think he meant to say "50's morals" but you'll be glad to know I don't ever return my polyester shirt to the Chess King after I wear it to the disco.


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Yeah, I think he meant to say "50's morals" but you'll be glad to know I don't ever return my polyester shirt to the Chess King after I wear it to the disco.


Good to hear, Moonvine. Your character and worth are growing in my estimation every day.


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## Jane (Aug 31, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> "'70s morals" means not putting out? I recall a lot more putting out in the '70s than I see today.
> 
> I figured "'70s morals" meant having polite roller boogie manners, and not returning your polyester shirt to the Chess King after you'd worn it to the disco.


My thoughts, too, BB. That's why I said "YAY" for 70's morals.


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## Boteroesque Babe (Aug 31, 2006)

Jane said:


> My thoughts, too, BB. That's why I said "YAY" for 70's morals.


You glitter-covered mattress-back, you.


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## Jane (Aug 31, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> You glitter-covered mattress-back, you.


Mattress? Oh, yeah, I guess there, too.














Hee hee hee


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## moonvine (Aug 31, 2006)

I still want one of these. Maybe that is what he was talking about.


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## moonvine (Aug 31, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> I know what you are trying to say, and you haven't been soliciting advise or tips/self-esteem boosters. But in all the time I've known you, I've seen a lot of negativity as related to yourself (you have no problem being kind & encouraging & supportive of other people). If I'm seeing it on a message board, I can only imagine that people around you are seeing it in you. It's not a quality that other people find attractive.
> 
> I really, really hope that I haven't offended you, because that is SO not what I intended to do. I like you a lot, I just wish you saw yourself in a more positive light.



No, you haven't offended me at all.

I am not sure what the other people around me see. I am careful not to talk about this stuff "in real life" unless I am at a NAAFA meeting or something. I really do not want to feed the stereotype of men not liking fat women. People do know I have a lot of cats, though, since that is what I talk about most. 

I like to think of myself as an optimistic realist. As in, it probably won't happen, but it might! (winning the lottery, getting a date, being on the Price is Right, whatever).


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## moonvine (Aug 31, 2006)

Friday said:


> Bet you dollars to donuts that this is his real problem and the rest is just his insecurity. I mean heaven freakin' forbid that a mere woman think she might be right and a man be wrong.



Ha. Well, he does think he is right awfully often. Funny thing is that I realize that if someone else is convinced they are right the chances you will change their mind is very slim, so I typically don't bother to argue unless it is something that is critically important to me, like not declawing cats. 



> Any guy who tell's you he's not interested 'cuz' you're not putting out ain't worth the time of day (and incidentally is almost gauranteed to be shit in bed).



Well, he has a girlfriend. He just finds my morals and values and beliefs ....strange would be a kind word. Such as 

1. I do not cohabitate with people before marriage - not so much because I think it is morally wrong as because I think it can lead to financial and emotional disaster.

2. I do not, not, not comingle finances with anyone to whom I am not legally married - including family members. To do so is to court financial disaster. And I am going to insist on a prenup. I'm not wealthy by any stretch, but I have worked VERY hard for what I have.

3. I do not have casual sex. I think it is vile and disgusting, and worse it makes me feel vile and disgusting. Therefore I don't do it. Don't care what other people do, that is their business.



> p.s. I'm sure the blond is a nice person but take away the hair dye, the professional make up job, the fake tan, the expensive clothes, the personal trainer, the professional photographer and the airbrushing and you might be surprised.



I see her just about every day without makeup, etc (Big Brother live feeds and YouTube, I'm an addict, so sue me and I think she's stunning. She's even more beautiful on TV - she just radiates this energy. I want her to be my BFF.


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


>



Hey! I made that dress! I see you...finally! 

And you are adorable...

I no longer go to bashes. I was treated so RUDELY by so many women there ....I was shocked. "What are YOU doing here?" being one of the nicer things a stranger approaching me (standing alone, talking to no one, feeling nervious) said to me. I won't go on from there. I guess I wasn't big enough or something...which at well over 200 pounds and a size 22 is BULLSHIT.


The hypersexuality thing too....it was understandable, the freedom of it, but embarassing to see.

I really love to flirt, and I love to be flirted with, by both men and women...but I saw so much stuff where I wanted to say "Awww, sweetie...rachet it down a notch!"

The sexual harassment you described is appalling. I had a friend who acted much the same way when we went out to dinner, flirting with waitstaff, sometimes grabby... I eventually stopped spending time in public with her, because had I, even as gently as I could possibly manage to do, suggested that she tone it down a bit, I would have smacked up the side of my head.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Aug 31, 2006)

I don't think those beliefs and morals and values are weird at all. I think they're practical. I think it's VERY rare to meet someone who is trustworthy of being financially involved with/rooming with. As far as casual sex... Unsafe. Also, if something makes you feel bad, why do it? That's just common sense to this shameless hussy.



moonvine said:


> Ha. Well, he does think he is right awfully often. Funny thing is that I realize that if someone else is convinced they are right the chances you will change their mind is very slim, so I typically don't bother to argue unless it is something that is critically important to me, like not declawing cats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


> But it is empircally obvious. She's had at least 3 boyfriends in the past year (one of whom, by the way, is a current NFL player) and I haven't had a date.
> 
> There may indeed be men out there who find me more attractive than her. But they are 1. in the minority 2. not stepping forward.
> 
> Hell, I'd do her, and I'm a straight girl.




Yeah, but she is sporting some major hair breakage.

um.....just sayin.


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> About the very pretty: I've known some, and am related to a few. They often have less motivation to develop themselves in other areas, and therefore sometimes don't. Thus that "skin deep" thing. You don't want that, either.




Damn skippy....I agree 100%. I call it the "Big Dick" theory. Ever notice that the guys with the big dicks tend to, ahem...be less than amazing in bed? I think it's because they think "Hey..I gots a big ole dick....who needs anything else".

The REALLY pretty people of the world often have a lot of door open for them by simple virture of their looks. There are famous people that make a lot of money simply because they can show up on time and look a certain way.

Sad...true.

But god, as someone who used to work in the industry, thats so often ALL they have. Thats it! Looks. No brains, no social skills, no sense of humour, no curiousity, no emotional intelligence....no depth, no nothing.

And when you find that out...they dont look so good anymore.

Moonvine, you have looks AND brains up the wazoo, as well as all the lovely stuff listed above. I hope you know that more than you let on.


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## moonvine (Aug 31, 2006)

RedVelvet said:


> Hey! I made that dress! I see you...finally!



Have I ever told you how much I love this dress? I wear it at least once a week.. I wear it to the grocery store...to work...to school...I don't care if people think I am overdressed...I love it..and you can wash it in the washer. The only problem is tha tone day it will wear out.   I will cry!



> I no longer go to bashes. I was treated so RUDELY by so many women there ....I was shocked. "What are YOU doing here?" being one of the nicer things a stranger approaching me (standing alone, talking to no one, feeling nervious) said to me. I won't go on from there. I guess I wasn't big enough or something...which at well over 200 pounds and a size 22 is BULLSHIT.



I've heard this from other women, and find it oh so bizarre. I think it has to be perceived competition for men..but the men who go to the bashes are generally looking for supersize women and you are not single anyway!


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Have I ever told you how much I love this dress? I wear it at least once a week.. I wear it to the grocery store...to work...to school...I don't care if people think I am overdressed...I love it..and you can wash it in the washer. The only problem is tha tone day it will wear out.   I will cry!



Sweetpea...the day it wears out..send it to me, and I will replace it with something just as nice in the same cut (tho maybe not the same print.....we will find something similar). Not to worry. 


I have lots of those in different prints...throw over head...zip up boots, hang huge earrings....DONE!

easy!

Now back to the subject at hand...


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I've heard this from other women, and find it oh so bizarre. I think it has to be perceived competition for men..but the men who go to the bashes are generally looking for supersize women and you are not single anyway!




Yeah...but I was single at the time!

I find that men who like mid-sized (whatever tHAT mean) women don't come to those bashes..so...I am stuck with the regular world, and tend to wait for them to approach me.

Very old fashioned, for a girl who loves bondage...heh.


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## Tina (Aug 31, 2006)

RedVelvet said:


> Sweetpea...the day it wears out..send it to me, and I will replace it with something just as nice in the same cut (tho maybe not the same print.....we will find something similar). Not to worry.
> 
> 
> I have lots of those in different prints...throw over head...zip up boots, hang huge earrings....DONE!
> ...



I fell in *love* with the one with the blue roses on sale, but someone bought it right before I could get to it! *sniff*



Heh.

BTW, Velvet, I think it's unconscionable to treat someone like that. I bet if you go to the Vegas bash you wouldn't be treated like that. The woman who went to the last one seem to be so down to earth. And I'll be there, too, and would never treat you -- or anyone -- that way.


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 31, 2006)

RedVelvet said:


> I find that men who like mid-sized (whatever tHAT mean) women don't come to those bashes..so...I am stuck with the regular world, and tend to wait for them to approach me.
> 
> Very old fashioned, for a girl who loves bondage...heh.



Oh you sexay mid-size girls. Makes me want to try to pick you up and spank you it does!

(I'm sorry, I think I've gotten worse since Jes's departure. Trying to fill the void, I guess)


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## moonvine (Aug 31, 2006)

Tina said:


> I fell in *love* with the one with the blue roses on sale, but someone bought it right before I could get to it! *sniff*
> 
> 
> 
> Heh.



Don't you hate it when people do that, Tina? It is SO WRONG. 


I want one of the burgandy ones! OMG, so pretty! They are too small though. Le sigh.


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

Tina said:


> I fell in *love* with the one with the blue roses on sale, but someone bought it right before I could get to it! *sniff*
> 
> 
> 
> Heh.




We should talk..I have a similar fabric, even prettier, I think.....seriously...we should talk. This could happen for ya.

Thanks for the other kind words too...they mean a lot...Maybe some day I will try again!


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Don't you hate it when people do that, Tina? It is SO WRONG.
> 
> 
> I want one of the burgandy ones! OMG, so pretty! They are too small though. Le sigh.



They are going into the permanent catalog, sweetie...You can order one any time you like, in your size.


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## RedVelvet (Aug 31, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Oh you sexay mid-size girls. Makes me want to try to pick you up and spank you it does!




You mean like you? Spankies for everyone!


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## Tina (Aug 31, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Don't you hate it when people do that, Tina? It is SO WRONG.



Yeah, I do, even though I can't blame them one teensy bit.


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## CuteyChubb (Aug 31, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> His advice may have been crap. But even in a pile of dung, there are seeds which will grow to be grand and mighty trees. One day when you're having a nice, cold beer with your perfect mate, under the shade of your tree, you might be glad you fished through the shit for that seed.



Love the way you put that. Very poetic.


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## CuteyChubb (Aug 31, 2006)

Ms. Moonvine,

I too feel socially retarded at times. I think it is great that you have come here and have been so open and honest about yourself and how you feel. Perhaps with enough positive feedback here you will begin to believe the nice things people say. I don't have the answers, but I wish you the best in this situation.


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## activistfatgirl (Aug 31, 2006)

RedVelvet said:


> You mean like you? Spankies for everyone!



Lady, if approaching 350 is midsize, god save us all!!!!

Who wants some cookies? I've got a Family Pack and I'm lookin' to share.

Sorry, Moonvine, let's get back to your thread.


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 31, 2006)

Boteroesque Babe said:


> Good to hear, Moonvine. Your character and worth are growing in my estimation every day.



Why, that's so sweet of you, BB. I'm sure Moonvine finds your estimation of her character and worth to be a valuable esteem-building tool, indeed.


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## Jane (Aug 31, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Why, that's so sweet of you, BB. I'm sure Moonvine finds your estimation of her character and worth to be a valuable esteem-building tool, indeed.


God knows, I do!!!!!


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## TraciJo67 (Aug 31, 2006)

Jane said:


> God knows, I do!!!!!



As do I


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## lipmixgirl (Sep 1, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, TSL, seems you would have that dommely quality that would attract a certain portion of the male population to you.
> 
> No one will ever be able to convince me that I would not get more male attention if I looked like this:
> 
> ...


 

well, first off, in the words of my grandmother, "a little powder and a little paint makes you what you ain't..." i have added on to the quote "nipping, tucking, silicone, airbrushing, lighting, a little powder, & a little paint, makes you what you ain't..." 

if you haven't seen the girls of bodacious mag, i recommend getting your copy today... 

as my dear friend, ms. j. says - it is all about marketing... and she is right... 

are there going to be less men attracted to the fat body, of course... that is reality... 

but there is no substitute for that non-verbal interpersonal communication that screams "DAMN! I AM IT!"...

it seems to me that you have to find your inner self-confident, self-assured hottie and bring her out... she is there, you just have to find her... 

you go MENSA GIRL!:wubu: 

the big apple has spoken...

::exeunt:: :bow:


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## Tina (Sep 1, 2006)

lipmixgirl said:


> are there going to be less men attracted to the fat body, of course... that is reality...
> 
> but there is no substitute for that non-verbal interpersonal communication that screams "DAMN! I AM IT!"...
> 
> it seems to me that you have to find your inner self-confident, self-assured hottie and bring her out... she is there, you just have to find her...


Very well said, and I agree completely. 

Kelley, the one thing you seem to lack is self-confidence when it comes to looks and your own attractiveness. You are beautiful inside and out (and I know, because we have known each other for a long time, so I speak from experience!).

If you just want to get laid, that is a short-term project; but ultimately, the most satisfying thing would be to work on your self-perception -- improving that and then letting it show. It will affect the way you move, the way you talk, the way you look at people, and a good self-perception, and liking your looks and your body, becomes obvious to the world, and it is very sexy.


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