# How I have sometimes tried to talk to women who hate their bodies



## Russell Williams (Jun 2, 2007)

In the past, at times, at a NAAFA dance I have seen a lovely women and told her that she was lovely. Usually the response is some form of "Thank you for the compliment." Occasionally the response is something like, "I hate my body and I want to get thinner."

I know that I will not be able to convice such a woman that she is attractive. The best i can do is convince her that i find her attractive and suggest that her fatness is not a sign that she is a failure as a human being.

I finally worked out the following response.

"Most people who diet will regain the weight. If you do lose weight and regain it do not beat up on yourself because most dieters gain it all back and often some more."

"That said, I happen to find the body you have right now to be very attractive. If you get thinner there will be other people who find your body very attractive. As long as you happen to currently have that lovely very fat body I hope you do not mind if I find it attractive even if you feel that it is a very ugly body"

In such cases usually the woman will agree that she does not mind me considering her to be attractive. My hope is that once a woman can grasp that one man finds her attractive then she can start to realize that many men find her attractive. 

Naturally there are some women who are well dressed and have many curves but, after a short conversation in which I find out that they are full of dislike of most of the people about them and full of complaints about the way the convention is organized and run, I quickly learn that there is nothing that I find beautiful about them.

Russell

Yes I know that some women have no interest in being found attractive to men but usually they do not show up at NAAFA dances and wear lovely clothing.


----------



## SamanthaNY (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> "Most people who diet will regain the weight. If you do lose weight and regain it do not beat up on yourself because most dieters gain it all back and often some more."



While I agree that diets (in the popular sense) aren't a wise idea, I dislike this type of response you gave. Reason being that it gives the messages that women have to stay at their current size, for fear of getting fatter, and that there is absolutely nothing they can do in terms of controlling their own bodies. This is patently untrue. There's all manner of ideas for living in a fat body, and you've only addressed one: dieting. But you gave her no information on other things she might do, so you gave her the impression that she is hopeless. You have no knowledge of what made that woman the size she is, so addressing her desires (in the manner you did) of wanting to change it are inappropriate. Simply saying "I think you're beautiful as you are" would suffice, instead of "you'll only get more of what you already hate, so give up and plod through life as you are - but at least you give *me* a thrill" (the message I believe SHE heard). Don't get me wrong - it's great to tell fat women that they are admired by men. Fantastic. But - where you fail here is you need to get HER to think she's beautiful. Not just _you_. There is a huge difference there. 

You have long presented yourself as a type of authority in matters of activism, size and size acceptance, and while a lot of the work you do is quite helpful and admirable, by choosing to address someone's size in that manner, I think you're doing more harm than good. The messages of accepting and appreciating a woman's beauty are fantastic, but I wish you would stop there, and stay away from messages about what fat women can and can't do for themselves. 


Russell Williams said:


> If you get thinner there will be other people who find your body very attractive.



I think this is the wrong message too. Shouldn't size acceptance be that EVERY body is beautiful? Fat or thin? Did she just get the idea that you ONLY find her beautiful BECAUSE she's fat? That's not going to help her either. At all. 



Russell Williams said:


> Yes I know that some women have no interest in being found attractive to men but usually they do not show up at NAAFA dances and wear lovely clothing.


Wrong message here too. Lots of women dress beautifully, go to Naafa and do all sorts of other things for _themselves_.


----------



## Russell Williams (Jun 2, 2007)

In the past, at times, at a NAAFA dance I have seen a lovely women and told her that she was lovely. Usually the response is some form of "Thank you for the compliment." Occasionally the response is something like, "I hate my body and I want to get thinner."

That is the senero. At this dance what would you tell this woman who has just stated that she hates her body and at least implied that she will not be happy with it until the body is smaller? Remember this is a dance, not a health or body acceptance workshop

(Once I was dancing with a woman who weighed about 240. She was not dressed well. As politely as I could, which was probably not very politely, I explained that there were new sources of large size clothing and that some of the women at the dance would probably be happy to recomend places to buy large size clothing.

The woman expained that she knew that her clothes were not particularly attractive but that it made no sense to buy any new ones until she got down to her normal weight of 160. In a flash of inspiration I asked her how long she had been at 240. She told me it had been 15 years. Guess what, 240 was her normal weight! How sad that that woman would spend 15 years not enjoying life to the fullest because she was waiting for something that had not happened for 15 years and therefore was not likely to happen in the next month or two.)

Russell Williams


----------



## Fuzzy Necromancer (Jun 2, 2007)

> Naturally there are some women who are well dressed and have many curves but, after a short conversation in which I find out that they are full of dislike of most of the people about them and full of complaints about the way the convention is organized and run, I quickly learn that there is nothing that I find beautiful about them.



Russel:

These are not, in fact, actual women. These are Andy Rooney in a fat suit and drag.

-Fuzzy Necromancer


----------



## Carrie (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> (Once I was dancing with a woman who weighed about 240. She was not dressed well. As politely as I could, which was probably not very politely, I explained that there were new sources of large size clothing and that some of the women at the dance would probably be happy to recomend places to buy large size clothing.



You're fortunate to have not been kneed in the groin for that. Your intentions may have been good (?), but my god, you're not the Fairy Godfather of fat women - it's not up to you to advise us on what to wear, or how to live or eat or _anything_. Do you really not understand how patronizing you sound? If someone evereverever pulled this kind of stunt with me at a dance, I'd either burst into tears or tell him to go to hell. Probably both. I seriously doubt you did anything but made this woman feel badly about how she was dressed, and that's not much of an achievement. 

It may be time to rethink some of your size acceptance strategies, Russell.


----------



## Fuzzy Necromancer (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell's size acceptance strategies are fine.

It might be that he needs to rethink his female accquaintance strategies.


----------



## Carrie (Jun 2, 2007)

If giving wardrobe advice to a woman who has not asked for it, and is perfectly capable of looking around a room herself and noticing that other women may have been dressed differently/better is a size acceptance strategy, I disagree with you, Fuzz.


----------



## SamanthaNY (Jun 2, 2007)

I would explain to her that happiness and body size aren't necessarily related, nor should they be. She has this body, _right _here, and _right _now - so why not dress it well and use it to it's fullest ability. Damn the torpedos, full steam ahead! She may indeed have a different body in the future - and that's okay - but she's this age, right now - today, and _that _will never happen again. This 240 pound body she has right now is the one that needs and deserves attention and enjoyment. Denying herself enjoyment and good clothes... "until"... is just like dieting. It doesn't work. 

I would also point her towards other big women who are wearing nice clothes, and who are enjoying themselves and their own bodies. What makes them different? They're not just kidding themselves - they've learned something that she hasn't, and perhaps she needs to investigate that.

That said - I think the way you broached the subject with that woman was pretty cruel, and she apparently didn't have enough esteem to do anything but agree with you. I wish wish wish that men like you would NOT go up to women (at Naafa, or anywhere else) and open a conversation about their fat! Jesus.

If you're going to continue to be obsessed about fat, then please to back to dealing with armless chairs instead of people. There you do no harm, and hopefully some good. The same cannot be said in your dealings with people.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell, I'm of the opinion, as one of those crazy women that always hated myself, that the best you can do is say nice things about what you see and leave it at that. (Those nice words do sink in sometimes, too) 
Stay out of the maze of our minds and be a happier man for it.....


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 2, 2007)

Carrie said:


> If giving wardrobe advice to a woman who has not asked for it, and is perfectly capable of looking around a room herself and noticing that other women may have been dressed differently/better is a size acceptance strategy, I disagree with you, Fuzz.



I've always wanted to see you in polyester, Carrie.  

Seriously, compliments are great, Russ, but unsolicited advice? Not cool. Some women (myself) don't care about style. If you're just dying to say something or a woman seems totally obvious, try, "Wow, you look just like that Lane Bryant model! Ever been there? No? Great plus size clothing store for women. Might ask some other women here about it as I'm no fashionista." This way you've non-confrontationally told a woman with maybe poor self-esteem:

1) She's very pretty.

2) Fat can be pretty.

3) There are great clothing resources available for everyone.


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> In the past, at times, at a NAAFA dance I have seen a lovely women and told her that she was lovely. Usually the response is some form of "Thank you for the compliment." Occasionally the response is something like, "I hate my body and I want to get thinner."



Hi Russell,

Firstly, I dont doubt your good intentions. From your posts here and your activism work I'm sure your compliments were sincere and thats lovely.

But, a womans response to a compliment often depends on how she feels about the man saying the words. As you said, a dance is a sexual arena so by deflecting your compliment she might have been trying to say that she didn't want you to find her attractive and/or wasn't interested in you. 

The nicest positive response is to say something like 'I think you look lovely as you are' and then just change the subject and talk about the music or something. If she doesn't feel happy with her appearance but still wants to chat then you'll get a chance to drop another compliment into the conversation a bit later and then take things from there.

I seriously doubt that you'll be able to change how she really feels about her body on the basis of a short conversation at a dance though. If a slim female stranger spoke to you and told you that thin women were 'better' would it reverse your years of ardent size acceptance? Thought not. A dance (even a size positive one) is about fun and casual flirting, not really the place to psychoanalyse her body image and try to re-program her.

Oh and Carrie, Polyester, definitely!

Tracey xx


----------



## alienlanes (Jun 2, 2007)

Wait, so "U R SO HOT HOW MCH DO U WEIGH N00DZ PLS" doesn't work ?

...seriously, though, I'd be really offended if someone I didn't know offered me "friendly" advice on how I should dress better. I don't know what it's like to be a fat woman, but a comment like that would trigger _my_ autonomy/self-esteem issues something fierce.


----------



## NancyGirl74 (Jun 2, 2007)

I don't mean to be rude but I really find it annoying when a guy takes it upon himself to be my personal fat cheerleader. Don’t get me wrong compliments are very nice. In fact, I've become much better at accepting them since coming to Dims. However, I find it irksome (and maybe this is wrong of me) when a guy thinks that by telling me how much he likes BBWs it will change my whole outlook on my fatness. You (meaning guys in general) liking fat women or liking how I look as a fat woman will not change how I feel about myself. You are not my personal savior. Please understand that compliments will help bolster a sagging ego but no amount of convincing on your part will change how someone feels overall. That is a personal, internal thing. Like all self improvements learning to like one's self no matter what their size may be must come from within...and not a well meaning stranger. My advice would be to pay the compliment but don't try to "save" someone who is not looking or ready for a rescuer.


----------



## Tina (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell, that is really creepy. Given your shenanigans in the past (you rubbing women's bellies, unasked for, at various gatherings, your post creeps me out. What makes you think that you are so marvelous that women want to hear how you are attracted to their bodies? Ick.


----------



## TCUBOB (Jun 2, 2007)

Complimenting women is a minefield. That said, the ol' rule of thumb about not saying anything if you don't have something nice to say is always in fashion. If you see something that you think is flattering/attractive, that's usually ok. But beyond that.....you're on your own, bro. Let the women tell the women how to dress, that's my motto.

Or it should be, were I smart enough to consistantly follow it.


----------



## Ivy (Jun 2, 2007)

Tina said:


> Russell, that is really creepy. Given your shenanigans in the past (you rubbing women's bellies, unasked for, at various gatherings, your post creeps me out. What makes you think that you are so marvelous that women want to hear how you are attracted to their bodies? Ick.



"You must spread some rep around before giving it to Tina again."

you took the words right outta my mouth.


----------



## tonynyc (Jun 2, 2007)

Well the best way to handle "friendly" fashion advice is to ask for their credit card and charge away at the Lane Byrant- Avenue - Rochester Big and Tall - MensWear or other store of your choosing  

Most women have that sixth sense anyway - they can tell from the *look* that a guy would give.


----------



## Miss Vickie (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell, depending on where I was in terms of my self esteem at the moment I'd either verbally bitch slap you or run crying from the room after being given your fashion advice. In either case, I don't think those are quite the reactions you were hoping for.

And if my husband heard you speak to me in that way? You'd have bigger problems, buddy.

And yes, I would mind if you found my fat (now less fat) body attractive. It's not there for your amusement or attraction or fantasies or whatever. It's MY body. I can't change anyone's feelings about it, but I can damn well call them on their inappropriateness when they comment on it. It's just an invasion of personal space, Russell. You may not believe us when we tell you that, but it is.

The bottom line is that you cannot "convince" anyone to like their own body. As others have so eloquently said, that's internal work that has to be done by the person in question, in our own time, in our own way. If all it took was some middle aged dude coming up to us at a NAAFA dance and telling us we were sexy, then we'd all think we were all that and a bag of chips. But sadly it's more complicated than that.


----------



## Rosie (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> (Once I was dancing with a woman who weighed about 240. She was not dressed well. As politely as I could, which was probably not very politely, I explained that there were new sources of large size clothing and that some of the women at the dance would probably be happy to recomend places to buy large size clothing.





If someone said that to me, I would be asking them if they were willing to buy me a new wardrobe, because I sure as fuck can't afford to shop at those stores. I know you mean well, but this is just wrong to say something like that to a stranger.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 2, 2007)

I was actually thinking that for all anyone knows, maybe hand me downs or thrift store finds are all she could afford......

Not everyone can afford the new bbw clothes sold in the plus-size stores- those clothes often cost more than clothes for thinner women. Now go and make them fashionable and the price rises accordingly....

Commenting negatively on a person's clothes can often times be akin to rubbing salt in someone's wound.

I'm sure you meant well and didn't realize it Russell, but just thought it might be food for future thought.


----------



## Russell Williams (Jun 2, 2007)

"The bottom line is that you cannot "convince" anyone to like their own body. As others have so eloquently said, that's internal work that has to be done by the person in question, in our own time, in our own way"

Does this mean that any attmept to help homosexual students to learn to accept the bodies they find themselves in is pointless because no one can convince a homosexual student that their orientation is acceptable, or does the rule only apply to fat people?

Russell Williams


----------



## Miss Vickie (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> "The bottom line is that you cannot "convince" anyone to like their own body. As others have so eloquently said, that's internal work that has to be done by the person in question, in our own time, in our own way"
> 
> Does this mean that any attmept to help homosexual students to learn to accept the bodies they find themselves in is pointless because no one can convince a homosexual student that their orientation is acceptable, or does the rule only apply to fat people?
> 
> Russell Williams



No, it's not pointless, but do you seriously think that pointing out to a woman that she's poorly dressed is HELPING??? Also, it's one thing to try to contribute to a fat woman's self esteem, but to put it on yourself to convince her may be ego gratifying to YOU but doesn't really help HER. Trust me, you can ask Burtimus -- he's tried for over 20 years to convince me that I'm beautiful. All of the lovely, kind things he's said about my beauty are nice, but they hardly make a dent against a) society's beauty standards, b) the nasty things that people say to me personally about how I look (including what people here have said) and c) my own internal dialogue. Sadly, we are far too likely to internalize the negative than the positive. I think that's human nature.

But I bet if you asked Burtimus, a man who's known me literally through thick and thin(ish -- a size 14 is hardly thin), he wouldn't say he felt he had to "convince" me, but rather he would hope that I'd see myself through his eyes. Ultimately, though, he would agree that this work has to come from within. And having a perfect stranger creep me out with inappropriate comments about my body would hardly make me feel better. If anything, it'd make me want to take a long, hot and *very* soapy shower. OTOH, I have a history of sexual abuse so any perceived encroachment on my space and body tend to freak me out. Maybe I'm unusual in that and I can't say that my comments apply to anyone but me. 

Sorry, Russell. I think you have good intentions but I'm really afraid that at least with some women, you may be harming rather than helping. But all is not lost. What makes me feel pretty these days, in terms of attention from strangers? Is just when a guy meets my eyes and smiles at me. I don't know if it's because when I was fat I didn't look people in the eye, but I'm getting a lot more male attention now, and those little moments DO help make me feel attractive -- and in a non-skeevy, non-threatened way.


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 2, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> or does the rule only apply to fat people?



No, the rule applies to everyone. Offering unsolicited personal advice in a public place is equally offensive to people from all social groups. 

Tracey xx


----------



## Santaclear (Jun 2, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> No, it's not pointless, but do you seriously think that pointing out to a woman that she's poorly dressed is HELPING??? Also, it's one thing to try to contribute to a fat woman's self esteem, but to put it on yourself to convince her may be ego gratifying to YOU but doesn't really help HER. Trust me, you can ask Burtimus -- he's tried for over 20 years to convince me that I'm beautiful. All of the lovely, kind things he's said about my beauty are nice, but they hardly make a dent against a) society's beauty standards, b) the nasty things that people say to me personally about how I look (including what people here have said) and c) my own internal dialogue. Sadly, we are far too likely to internalize the negative than the positive. I think that's human nature.
> But I bet if you asked Burtimus, a man who's known me literally through thick and thin(ish -- a size 14 is hardly thin), he wouldn't say he felt he had to "convince" me, but rather he would hope that I'd see myself through his eyes. Ultimately, though, he would agree that this work has to come from within. And having a perfect stranger creep me out with inappropriate comments about my body would hardly make me feel better. If anything, it'd make me want to take a long, hot and *very* soapy shower. OTOH, I have a history of sexual abuse so any perceived encroachment on my space and body tend to freak me out. Maybe I'm unusual in that and I can't say that my comments apply to anyone but me.
> Sorry, Russell. I think you have good intentions but I'm really afraid that at least with some women, you may be harming rather than helping. But all is not lost. What makes me feel pretty these days, in terms of attention from strangers? Is just when a guy meets my eyes and smiles at me. I don't know if it's because when I was fat I didn't look people in the eye, but I'm getting a lot more male attention now, and those little moments DO help make me feel attractive -- and in a non-skeevy, non-threatened way.



I've never met Russell, Vickie, but I don't perceive his comments to the woman as necessarily inappropriate and certainly don't see how they'd cause harm. He says he's talking about trying to ride the fine line between encroaching in one's space and giving positive comment. What he said still leaves plenty of room for the woman to think, "well, he's just a (horny) asshole anyway" or whatever, if she wants.

Our internal dialogues are internal, but they can and do change. I won't give Russell or any man credit for changing a woman's internal dialogue but I don't believe it's hurting it.


----------



## Miss Vickie (Jun 2, 2007)

Santaclear said:


> I've never met Russell, Vickie, but I don't perceive his comments to the woman as necessarily inappropriate and certainly don't see how they'd cause harm. He says he's talking about trying to ride the fine line between encroaching in one's space and giving positive comment. What he said still leaves plenty of room for the woman to think, "well, he's just a (horny) asshole anyway" or whatever, if she wants.
> 
> Our internal dialogues are internal, but they can and do change. I won't give Russell or any man credit for changing a woman's internal dialogue but I don't believe it's hurting it.



Like I said, I can only speak for myself and how I would take such comments -- as a woman who identifies as both fat *and* survivor of sexual abuse. For me, having a stranger make very personal comments about my body and my clothing would cause great harm -- to my sense of personal boundaries, as well as how I felt I presented myself. I think that unless you've been in that situation it's hard to understand why or how it would cause harm. But trust me -- in my case, it would. 

That's why I pointed out to him what things have made me feel good, even while understanding that yes, the work has to come from within. That doesn't mean that we're not affected by what goes on around us and external messages, but ultimately no one person (not even my loving and adoring husband who's loved me since I was a 16 year old virgin, through pregnancies, through an autoimmune disease and WLS) can do that work for us. WE have to do it for ourselves.


----------



## Tracyarts (Jun 3, 2007)

The thing is you can't ever understand what causes a person to have a particular relationship with their body because you do not inhabit that body.

Which is why I try to not compliment people on their bodies unless I know them well enough to know how to navigate their emotional minefield. 

You cannot know what kind of joy or pain a person's body causes them, nor the whys and hows behind their feelings about their body. 

You cannot judge a person for their relationship with their body nor can you make a value judgement about their relationship with their body. That is something SO subjective. 

I am not even going to say anything about the telling somebody where to find nicer clothes, because that is one of the most monumental social faux pas I have ever heard in my life. 

Jeez Louise!
Tracy


----------



## eightyseven (Jun 3, 2007)

Russell Williams... a legend in his own mind. Note the THIRTEEN self-references in the OP. I'm finally glad to see that others are noticing this.

Sorry to break it to you Russell, but your "activism" is ridiculous, ineffective, sometimes hurtful (as in this instance you've posted on) and often self-promoting. It's always seems to me as though you're more concerned with the fat on peoples' bodies than you are with the people themselves. Rarely in your ramblings about daily activities you partake in (which are *cough* riveting *cough*) do I see anything but an overglorification of your fat-acceptance "crusade." It is NOT your job to educate fat women on how to dress, act, or stand up for their rights. You don't live in their bodies, know their life stories, or much seem to perceive how they might react to your comments.


----------



## fatchicksrockuk (Jun 3, 2007)

eightyseven said:


> Russell Williams... a legend in his own mind. Note the THIRTEEN self-references in the OP. I'm finally glad to see that others are noticing this.
> 
> Sorry to break it to you Russell, but your "activism" is ridiculous, ineffective, sometimes hurtful (as in this instance you've posted on) and often self-promoting. It's always seems to me as though you're more concerned with the fat on peoples' bodies than you are with the people themselves. Rarely in your ramblings about daily activities you partake in (which are *cough* riveting *cough*) do I see anything but an overglorification of your fat-acceptance "crusade." It is NOT your job to educate fat women on how to dress, act, or stand up for their rights. You don't live in their bodies, know their life stories, or much seem to perceive how they might react to your comments.



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to eightyseven again....dammit!!

I completely agree with you.


----------



## Santaclear (Jun 3, 2007)

What about context? There's a right and a wrong way to say things. Are we assuming Russell just blurts these things out (like unsolicited clothing advice) to any stranger out of the blue? I don't know that he does. I guess the reason I'm posting on this thread is I think people might be projecting that.

Nor do I see any implication that he thinks he knows what it's like to inhabit anyone else's body. Sensitivity is key. Not everyone's emotional minefield is the same.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jun 3, 2007)

Tina said:


> Russell, that is really creepy. Given your shenanigans in the past (you rubbing women's bellies, unasked for, at various gatherings, your post creeps me out. What makes you think that you are so marvelous that women want to hear how you are attracted to their bodies? Ick.




YES!!!! Someone gets it!!!! Russell is not all that and a bag of chips!!! Finally, someone has read my mind.

Get over yourself Russell, seriously. As a fat woman I do more activism just living my life than you would ever possibly be able to do running your mouth....and I don't go posting about every little thing that I do that will make it better for the next big fatty. I don't have that urge to be patted on the back for my every breath. 

You probably don't like being told how to act. Well have some of your own medicine. People don't like being told how to dress and where to shop. 

You and your shenanigans are just as oppressive as the system you claim to be fighting against in the name of "fat acceptance" in my opinion.


----------



## Russell Williams (Jun 3, 2007)

"Trust me, you can ask Burtimus -- he's tried for over 20 years to convince me that I'm beautiful. All of the lovely, kind things he's said about my beauty are nice, but they hardly make a dent against a) society's beauty standards, b) the nasty things that people say to me personally about how I look (including what people here have said) and c) my own internal dialogue. Sadly, we are far too likely to internalize the negative than the positive. I think that's human nature."

Even if Burtimus is unable to make a dent, do you firmly believe that Birtimus knows with a certainly that you are beautiful? Do you know with a certainity that when Birtimus looks at you he sees stunning and overwheming beauty. Even if you do not yet see it when you look in a mirror?

Russell


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 3, 2007)

Russell,

Your original post was to let us know you had 'worked out' a response ready to use. It's five long sentences, ends in the words 'ugly body', and you're apprently rehearsing it here ready to deliver to the next woman who tries to deflect a compliment. 

Santaclear is right - it's all about sensitivity - your response has absolutely none.

Tracey


----------



## Russell Williams (Jun 3, 2007)

" As a fat woman I do more activism just living my life than you would ever possibly be able to do running your mouth....and I don't go posting about every little thing that I do that will make it better for the next big fatty."

Good, in England they are discussing wether of not a having a fat child is a sign of child abuse. If you are in England please live your life in such a way as to convice people that a fat teenager is not a sign of child neglect.

About 12 years ago I was involved in the case of a 15 year old child who the welfare deparment had taken legal custody of and was threatening to take physical custody of. I keep asking questions to see if there was any other issue and was repeately told, by the caseworker and by family relatives and friends, that the only issue was the fact that this girl was grossly obese at 315 lbs and that was proof of child endangerment. I was calling up the social worker after the family had said that they wanted me to get involved.


Rather then call the family and then, with their permisson, start talking to the welfare department, how could I have simply lived my life as a fat man and gotten the welfare department out of the family's life? Eventually the department did leave the family alone.

This took place about 600 miles from my home.

Russell


----------



## Russell Williams (Jun 3, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Get over yourself Russell, seriously. As a fat woman I do more activism just living my life than you would ever possibly be able to do running your mouth....and I don't go posting about every little thing that I do that will make it better for the next big fatty. I don't have that urge to be patted on the back for my every breath.
> 
> Some people have a different view of the situation.
> 
> ...


----------



## William (Jun 3, 2007)

Hi 

I always first listen to a person before I converse on most matters including Fat Acceptance. You have to know who you are talking to when opening a conversation. 

Also at a NAAFA Dance why is it necessary to "make over" a Fat Person? I would think that it is more important to congratulate them for getting out and supporting themselves and others in Fat Acceptance.

Finally a Glamorous appearance should not be a requirement or a goal at a NAAFA dance.

William






Tracyarts said:


> The thing is you can't ever understand what causes a person to have a particular relationship with their body because you do not inhabit that body.
> 
> Which is why I try to not compliment people on their bodies unless I know them well enough to know how to navigate their emotional minefield.
> 
> ...


----------



## saucywench (Jun 3, 2007)

William said:


> ...at a NAAFA Dance why is it necessary to "make over" a Fat Person? I would think that it is more important to congratulate them for getting out and supporting themselves and others in Fat Acceptance.
> 
> Finally a Glamorous appearance should not be a requirement or a goal at a NAAFA dance.


My first thought about this thread, aside from similar thoughts that have already been well-covered, is the sexist assumption that women exist to please men.

I've been to a NAAFA dance. While there were a smattering of men who were dressed in suits (or were otherwise sartorially attired), the dress of the majority of men was simply not on par with that of the women. In my opinion (and someone chime in if they disagree), the majority of women at these dances dress to the nines to (a) feel good about themselves, in a venue that allows them that opportunity, (b) to impress their fellow fat sisters with their unique sense of style and flair, and (c) lastly, to impress men.

While a glamorous appearance may not be a requirement or goal at a NAAFA convention overall, it is generally understood that the dances are an opportunity for the female attendees (those who so desire) to pull out all the stops with regard to their appearance. It's a fun thing to do, and, as evidenced by all of the conversations I've witnessed over the years about the Vegas bash, a lot of time and consideration is given by women to the clothing that will be bought and brought and worn.

Frankly (my opinion again), *most* men have little to no fashion sense. While a man may compliment a woman's attire at such occasions, it's usually in a general sense--he's not going to notice the little details that a woman has taken such care in to present herself in the best possible way. Women generally get those good strokes from other women. 

(I had a thought here, but deleted it, as I cannot really speak on what motivates men to attend the dances--perhaps they can say in their own words.)

As has been mentioned, perhaps the woman could not afford *nice* clothes for the dance. Depending on her circumstances and where she was from, it might have been a financial struggle to even _attend_ the dance. If she was there for the entire convention, perhaps it took every penny she had saved to afford travel, hotel, and registration. The point is, we cannot know these things, and it is awfully presumptuous to approach a complete stranger and offer such kind of advice. 

Lastly, and coming full circle regarding sexism, I have to consider if the situation were reversed (not that I care what Russell wears ). Seriously, in a similar social setting, what woman would counsel a man--a complete stranger--in a similar manner?


----------



## NancyGirl74 (Jun 3, 2007)

Most fashion advice should only be from girl to girl or better yet from friend to friend. Women tend to have the ability to tell eachother, "Gee, that just isn't your color. Hey! I have a top that might work!"...or something along those lines, without being offensive. If a guy claiming to be interested in you comes at you with fashion advice right after his opening line he is likely to be walked away from or questioned about his level of straightness. 

Think about it this way...Has a woman ever walked up to a man and said, "Hi, I find you very attractive....But you should really wear blue because brown makes you look like you're about to barf." The comment might be well intended but it is still quite off-putting. Its a backhanded compliment to which most people wouldn't feel complimented at all. 

I'm going to give Russell the benefit of the doubt and say he means well...At least I hope you do, Russell. Just take it down a notch or ten. Get to know a woman before offering her advise on how she dresses or how she feels about her body. A truly helpful, caring friend is one who _listens_ to how the person is feeling more often than offering advice on how _you_ think they should feel.


----------



## SamanthaNY (Jun 3, 2007)

Santaclear said:


> What about context? There's a right and a wrong way to say things. Are we assuming Russell just blurts these things out (like unsolicited clothing advice) to any stranger out of the blue? I don't know that he does. I guess the reason I'm posting on this thread is I think people might be projecting that.
> 
> Nor do I see any implication that he thinks he knows what it's like to inhabit anyone else's body. Sensitivity is key. Not everyone's emotional minefield is the same.



I think he not only blurts it out, but he feels proud of himself for doing so. So proud that he makes a note of each and every instance to bring here and share with us. I think he ticks it off in a mental abacus; "that's another thing I've done for fat acceptance! God, I'm just SO damn good" I think Russell has come under the misconception that _if a fat person is involved, HE is involved_ - no matter what the situation. I think he has taken pride over his activism to such a level that he cannot differentiate between activism and the tingly feeling in his pants when he sees a fat woman within range. 


Russell Williams said:


> "Hey, Russell. I took a cue from you and when I was at my local pharmacy that only had four chairs, and all of them armed and uncomfortable to the point of pinching my legs, I sent a letter to the manager requesting new chairs for their patients of size. We'll see, but I appreciate you sharing your story so I could do the same "
> 
> Russell Williams



_CHAIRS ARE NOT PEOPLE_. Just because you influenced someone else to seek better seating (and yes, that's a good thing), that doesn't mean that you should intrude or "work tirelessly" in ever aspect of a fat person's life. There is a point where it's activism, and then there's a line where it crosses over into being intrusive, nosy, rude and insensitive. You're over the line. 

If you insist on being a fashion role model to women, then pick out a dress and some heels for your next scheduled Naafa appearance. And wear them. 

Stick to the chairs, Russell. Leave the women alone. *WE ARE NOT YOUR PROJECT*.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jun 3, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> If you insist on being a fashion role model to women, then pick out a dress and some heels for your next scheduled Naafa appearance. And wear them.




hahahahahah aaaahhh hahahahahahaha


----------



## bigsexy920 (Jun 3, 2007)

Ok first thing I want to say after reading this is, "who the hell does this guy think he is". And Secondly I would bet money the woman said that to get rid of you or turn you off. If there is one thing I know about FA's, and that is if you dont like being fat they generally will move on down the line to the next woman. 

Maybe she just didn't want you "making time" with her. 

2 cents and a little extra.


----------



## MoonGoddess (Jun 3, 2007)

Tracyarts said:


> The thing is you can't ever understand what causes a person to have a particular relationship with their body because you do not inhabit that body.
> 
> Which is why I try to not compliment people on their bodies unless I know them well enough to know how to navigate their emotional minefield.
> 
> ...



_
That was absolutely beautiful, and right on the money._


----------



## Miss Vickie (Jun 3, 2007)

You know, I had a lengthy post typed out -- cut and pasted and all that jazz. And I decided, you know what? It's not worth it. Russell, I've had these gorounds with you before, trying to give you some insight into how women (at least this woman) thinks and how complicated body image is. But you clearly haven't listened to me and the scores of other women who have tried.

Which is what has brought us here.

My own feeling is that if you were truly interested in women's body image and in helping us, you'd ASK how you could help -- not make pronouncements. Instead, though, you make these pronouncements, which do nothing for us but no doubt make you feel good. 

Well, isn't that nice.

And as for Burtimus, you missed my point by a mile. I wish I could say that surprised me, but sadly, it is about what I expected. I hope someday, a better woman than I can reach you and make you understand what it is we're trying to tell you. But maybe, like our struggles with our bodies, the answer has to come from within.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 3, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> But maybe, like our struggles with our bodies, the answer has to come from within.




Bingo


----------



## CurvaceousBBWLover (Jun 3, 2007)

Russell, it is good that you are trying to let the ladies know you appreciate their size. I've read your posts and I'm not quite sure what your objective is. Are you trying to pick someone up or are you just trying to make every woman feel good about herself?

My advice to you is just to offer a compliment. If the woman rejects the compliment and starts talking about how much she hates her body, you should move on to a different woman. It's not worth it to waste time on a woman who hates herself.

Women with low self esteem-skinny or fat--tend to be very touchy about their personal space. Your wardrobe advice is too pushy. When women want advice on how to dress, they normally go to other women. 

You don't know what kind of emotional and spiritual baggage these women are carrying. You don't know what kind of economic situation these women are in. Some of them can't afford plus size clothes. Others just want to stay in the drab, frumpy clothes because that is the best they can do with a low level of self-esteem. 

When you go up to random women and offer advice on how to dress, they may perceive you as an insufferable boor. You don't want to be physically attacked, told off, backstabbed, or in a worse case scenario, have a woman complain about you to the convention organizers and say you are harassing her.

This is just some friendly advice. And by the way, I like your continuing campaign for armless chairs. Have a great day!


----------



## alienlanes (Jun 3, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> Does this mean that any attmept to help homosexual students to learn to accept the bodies they find themselves in is pointless because no one can convince a homosexual student that their orientation is acceptable, or does the rule only apply to fat people?



I think this is comparing apples and oranges. Not that the two can't overlap, but there's a difference between being ashamed of what you're attracted to and being ashamed because you don't think you're attractive. 



Tracyarts said:


> Which is why I try to not compliment people on their bodies unless I know them well enough to know how to navigate their emotional minefield.



Exactly. 



saucywench said:


> I've been to a NAAFA dance. While there were a smattering of men who were dressed in suits (or were otherwise sartorially attired), the dress of the majority of men was simply not on par with that of the women.



Guilty as charged ...


----------



## superodalisque (Jun 4, 2007)

i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place. 

and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.


----------



## chickadee (Jun 4, 2007)

I love my body, but I don't have the money to buy stylish plus-size clothes. I wear what I can find in thrift stores and clearance racks. If someone told me that I looked frumpy, I'd ask him if he wanted to take me out shopping on his dime. 

I'm not going to wear high heels and skimpy dresses, just to please a man. I'm going to dress for myself, in the way that my morals and finances dictate. If a man doesn't like that, he can either pay for my new warddrobe or back off.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jun 4, 2007)

superodalisque said:


> i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place.
> 
> and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.




I want to hug you...like seriously. You speak nothing but truth. And the last 2 sentences are very true of a lot of men in the bbw scene.


----------



## bigsexy920 (Jun 4, 2007)

This is why I love you. GREAT post. !! 




superodalisque said:


> i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place.
> 
> and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.


----------



## Mimi (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm very new to posting here, and hope that as such I have a right to even comment on this (i.e. I hope that I'm not overstepping my bounds).

I noticed the title of this thread and thought I'd check it out, thinking I'd learn a little about FAs in Dimensions. Unfortunately the feeling I was left with after reading Russell's posts was uncomfortable at best. I believe there are men who want *credit* for being FAs, as if they are doing something difficult and grand ... and (cough) doing us a favor. That sort of mentality makes my skin crawl because the truth is that I'm attractive and if you, as a man, gets to spend time looking at me, *YOU* are the lucky one and nothing you ever say or do should ever imply otherwise. 

To carry on as if one is a mighty FA and a protector of fat girls everywhere is to perpetuate the misguided idea that we _NEED_ protecting, bolstering, or fixing. Geez, aren't there enough stereotypes out there about fat people ... do we have to create more???? UGH!!!!!!!!! I'm not saying there *aren't* times when my self-esteem is in the toilet, but it is _*my*_ responsibility to take care of that, *not* someone else's ... and the idea that someone might come up to me and try to insinuate their uninvited opinion or advice scares me. Nothing about that sounds helpful.

I don't know the contexts in which Russell does his thing, but I'm hoping he's trying to genuinely do good (I'm a bit of a Pollyanna at times) and not bolster his own ego. On first glance, I've got to say it doesn't look too good though. If the goal is to appear magnanimous or altruistic, his efforts would be better spent on a real charity. I don't see BBWs as being one in any way. Either he sees us as big and beautiful or he doesn't. If he really does, than he should treat us that way by simply respecting us and enjoying our company ... not by using us, and our supposed plight, to make his possible dreams of being SuperFA a reality. 

And by the way, if you do a good deed and go around telling the whole world about it, guess what, that deed has no meaning anymore and you come off looking like a self-absorbed ______ [fill in the blank]. So Russell, (if this newbie may be so bold) _if you really are trying to do good, be genuine and don't broadcast it_. 

Mimi

PS I'm happy to read that this is not the prevailing viewpoint of other FAs.


----------



## Carrie (Jun 4, 2007)

Mimi said:


> I'm very new to posting here, and hope that as such I have a right to even comment on this (i.e. I hope that I'm not overstepping my bounds).



Um, you guys? Mimi is _wicked_ smart.  

(Welcome, Mimi! )


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 4, 2007)

Carrie said:


> Um, you guys? Mimi is _wicked_ smart.
> 
> (Welcome, Mimi! )



Agreed, but she does have a stamp of approval from that terrible rabblerouser named Carrie. We'll have to keep an eye on her. 

Welcome, Mimi, and awesome post.


----------



## Carrie (Jun 4, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Agreed, but she does have a stamp of approval from that terrible rabblerouser named Carrie. We'll have to keep an eye on her.



Eeep! She's connected to me now; it's too late! Muahahahaha..... :bounce:


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 4, 2007)

Carrie said:


> Eeep! She's connected to me now; it's too late! Muahahahaha..... :bounce:



I could tell that from the sheer quality of her post! Welcome Mimi!

SuperOdalisque, I loved what you posted also.

Tracey xx


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 4, 2007)

Carrie said:


> Eeep! She's connected to me now; it's too late! Muahahahaha..... :bounce:



So do we take off our clothes, start the bonfire, and start chanting, "One of us! One of us!" now, or do we wait until she's further assimilated?  

This size acceptance stuff is so confusing.


----------



## ashmamma84 (Jun 4, 2007)

superodalisque said:


> i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place.
> 
> and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.




All I can say is; Speak my sister, speak! 

I happen to be very fashion forward and carry myself in the highest regard, but even if I didn't, I sure wouldn't want some guy telling me what I should and shouldn't wear. 

Question Russell: Do you wear tailored, high quality clothing? Do you want someone dictating to you what you should wear? And lastly do you want someone trying to make you believe that you are beautiful and worthy, relentlessly? Don't think so.

In short, let up some. Trust me, women are smart...that's why we confide in other women. Just sayin'...


----------



## Mimi (Jun 4, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> So do we take off our clothes, start the bonfire, and start chanting, "One of us! One of us!" now, or do we wait until she's further assimilated?
> 
> This size acceptance stuff is so confusing.




Ooooh... will there be naked dancing? Sweet!!!!

Thanks for not throwing rocks and for making me feel welcome... it is much appreciated.

Now about that bonfire ... there'll be s'mores right? 'Cause a girl needs her chocolate!!


----------



## ashmamma84 (Jun 4, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> "The bottom line is that you cannot "convince" anyone to like their own body. As others have so eloquently said, that's internal work that has to be done by the person in question, in our own time, in our own way"
> 
> Does this mean that any attmept to help homosexual students to learn to accept the bodies they find themselves in is pointless because no one can convince a homosexual student that their orientation is acceptable, or does the rule only apply to fat people?
> 
> Russell Williams



Oh and I am a lesbian and no one had to convince me that my orientation is/was acceptable. It was work that I did on my own. My attraction to women (Babe, specifically), is apart of who I am, just as being fat is, just as being black is...it doesn't completely define me as I am much more complex, but it does inform my thinking, my being. 

Don't really see how that has anything to do with the topic at hand, though.


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 4, 2007)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> So do we take off our clothes, start the bonfire, and start chanting, "One of us! One of us!" now, or do we wait until she's further assimilated?
> 
> This size acceptance stuff is so confusing.



I was already naked - dont tell me I've made another social faux-pas? 

Tracey xx


----------



## ashmamma84 (Jun 4, 2007)

BeaBea said:


> I was already naked - dont tell me I've made another social faux-pas?
> 
> Tracey xx



   Sexxxay!


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 4, 2007)

Mimi said:


> Ooooh... will there be naked dancing? Sweet!!!!
> 
> Thanks for not throwing rocks and for making me feel welcome... it is much appreciated.
> 
> Now about that bonfire ... there'll be s'mores right? 'Cause a girl needs her chocolate!!



Ohh! S'mores! Tip there on s'mores, and I promise I'll stop derailing: Graham crackers are merely okay. Use shortbread cookies instead: So much better. Milk chocolate chip cookies also acceptable.



BeaBea said:


> I was already naked - dont tell me I've made another social faux-pas?
> 
> Tracey xx



That'll be two red faces if that's the case!


----------



## Eclectic_Girl (Jun 4, 2007)

Carrie said:


> Um, you guys? Mimi is _wicked_ smart.
> 
> (Welcome, Mimi! )



Whew, no kidding!

Welcome to Dims, Mimi. Not that you need anyone's permission, but you have mine to jump in and post on any thread you want.


----------



## Tina (Jun 4, 2007)

Russell, I hope you're paying attention and that it's sinking in.

Welcome, Mimi. Lots of truth in that post of yours -- stick around!


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jun 4, 2007)

Mimi said:


> I'm very new to posting here, and hope that as such I have a right to even comment on this (i.e. I hope that I'm not overstepping my bounds).
> 
> I noticed the title of this thread and thought I'd check it out, thinking I'd learn a little about FAs in Dimensions. Unfortunately the feeling I was left with after reading Russell's posts was uncomfortable at best. I believe there are men who want *credit* for being FAs, as if they are doing something difficult and grand ... and (cough) doing us a favor. That sort of mentality makes my skin crawl because the truth is that I'm attractive and if you, as a man, gets to spend time looking at me, *YOU* are the lucky one and nothing you ever say or do should ever imply otherwise.
> 
> ...



Oh Gawd Girl, you are soooo one of us, lol. You speak your mind very eloquently. Welcome to Dimensions. You will notice that throughout history the great almighty RW has made 99% of his posts about himself and his plight for Super FA tights.

I welcome you with open arms....any woman who can step in a speak her mind, is a breath of fresh air to me


----------



## Ned Sonntag (Jun 4, 2007)

superodalisque said:


> i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place.
> 
> and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.


My showroom/seraglio of telepresence-ready SSBBW Sex Droids will be the big hit of Fall 2024, and all will be forgiven.


----------



## William (Jun 4, 2007)

Hi

Great Post!!

I have always felt that Fat Admiration and Fat Acceptance need better borderlines in place because often the two communites are not in agreement.

William





superodalisque said:


> i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place.
> 
> and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 4, 2007)

Ok, I've followed this thread from the beginning, and there are now pages of heartfelt, well thought out, beautifully constructed posts from women who communicate beautifully how they feel and why they feel that way.

And frankly, Williams last post makes me want to weep. I'm at a loss as to where we go from here... I'm just, lost! Anyone...?

Tracey xx


----------



## Donna (Jun 4, 2007)

A wise person once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink." Yet another said, "There is none so blind as he who will not see."


----------



## Emma (Jun 5, 2007)

What made you dance with this woman if she was so 'poorly' dressed in the first place? Let me guess.. you wanted to try and make her feel good about herself. I wonder what her reasons for dancing with you were? Either way if a guy asked me to dance with him and I actually said yes; I would be doing HIM a favour. If he had the audacity to comment on my dress sense (other than to say it was nice or unusual) then I'd have probably laughed in his face and walked away to find someone more interesting to talk to. 

You're not our saviour. We're not your cause. Your posts make me cringe because I hate seeing people put on the spot and/or being humiliated. Thats what you do. People don't really have much choice in agreeing with what you say, they do it just to make you go away. If you enjoy what you're doing please just keep it to one post. We don't need myriad threads of you beating your own drum. Do it because you want to help not because you need praise.


----------



## Renaissance Woman (Jun 5, 2007)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mimi again.


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 5, 2007)

Russell Williams said:


> I finally worked out the following response.
> 
> "Most people who diet will regain the weight. If you do lose weight and regain it do not beat up on yourself because most dieters gain it all back and often some more."


 
What would make you think that this is an appropriate thing to say to anyone ever? I understand that you have deeply held beliefs about weight and self-esteem, but if someone isn't asking you to grab them and shove them on the path to self-acceptance, you should leave well enough alone. It's one thing to say "I find you attractive as you are", but leave it at that. 

A comment about the potential pitfalls of dieting, no matter how well meant, is just another way to undermine someone's self esteem. Think about it. What you're saying is "you feel awful about yourself. If you try to change yourself you will fail." HOORAY! Wait, no. Not hooray. That feels like shit. There is a difference between encouraging someone to love herself and encouraging her to relegate herself to a state that she does not want because it's impossible to reach another. 

Adding "but don't beat yourself up" does not mitigate the fact that the rest of the statement is negative and hurtful. 

Self-acceptance is far more difficult than listening to some random stranger say "well you won't be skinny anyway so why bother?". It isn't up to you to determine when a woman should accept herself. I agree with you that women should love the size they are NOW, whatever size that may be. But you can't brow beat them into it, and trying to do so is going to result in more embarrassment, more self-consciousness, and more self-doubt than just leaving well enough alone. 

There was a moment at the HB event over memorial day when I told AnnMarie that I would really like to learn to accept myself. And she talked to me about it, and in about one hour made an enormous difference in my life. But see how that isn't the same? I told her that I was ready. She didn't say, "well, waxwing, you're never going to be thin, so forget about it. PS: some people think you're hot." 



CurvyEm said:


> I hate seeing people put on the spot and/or being humiliated. Thats what you do.


----------



## William (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Tracey

It is not that bad. I think that I meant that approaching a woman for a dance or a date is not the same as offering support. Dealing with Fat Acceptance is not something done on the first meeting. I think that a relationship has to be established. What is great about forums and online groups is that the target person for support can get a connection with the person offering support before they first talk. All the stuff we share about ourselves is a form of sharing with the lurkers : )

William




BeaBea said:


> Ok, I've followed this thread from the beginning, and there are now pages of heartfelt, well thought out, beautifully constructed posts from women who communicate beautifully how they feel and why they feel that way.
> 
> And frankly, Williams last post makes me want to weep. I'm at a loss as to where we go from here... I'm just, lost! Anyone...?
> 
> Tracey xx


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 5, 2007)

William said:


> I think that I meant that approaching a woman for a dance or a date is not the same as offering support. Dealing with Fat Acceptance is not something done on the first meeting.


 
William, 

Your OP stated that if a woman at a dance didn't respond to your compliments with a positive answer you had worked out a long reply where you covered dieting and its lack of statistical success, self esteem and your own personal feelings about size/weight and attractiveness etc. How is that NOT 'dealing with Fat Acceptance on a first meeting'? 

If you are now claiming that this rehearsed response is just social chitchat then you need to listen to the many MANY women who have posted telling you that your words are offensive and inappropriate. 

If you STILL cant get that then I sincerely hope the next woman you try this on responds as Carrie suggested with a swift knee to your undercarriage. If it happens, please be sure to post about it! 

Tracey


----------



## butch (Jun 5, 2007)

One thing I find interesting is that if one is interested in rights for fat people, then why would they only care about the appearance of fat women as a form of advocating for fat acceptance? Don't BHMs count as fat people who might need some confidence boosting as well? I don't go to BBW dances, but in my day to day travels I see many BHMs who could use some fashion advice, and yet the thought of critiquing their clothing in any social situation is completely foreign to me. In fact, I'm more likely to see a fat man 'poorly dressed' than I am a 'poorly dressed' fat woman in my geographic region, and yet I don't think that is a sign of anyone's self-esteem levels, male or female. Nor do I assign any value to fat people, male or female, in what they wear. Not that I am critiquing how fat men dress, because I think in general, fat or thin, women do dress better than men. I think the absence of men in this advocacy highlights the dubious claim that this is a form of fat activism. 

If one's motive is entirely about self-acceptance, then they would already be approaching fat people of both genders to offer their 'kind' and 'helpful' 'advice'; the fact that an individual is only directing this advice to (presumably) heterosexual fat women suggests the advice is not about fat acceptance but about the individual's belief that their lust and approval is the be all and end all of what a woman needs to feel good about themselves. And that is not cool, whether you're a man or a woman doing the fashion advocacy. 

I might add that I speak as someone with a fashion sense that is often critiqued; I choose my personal style because it makes me feel better about myself. So I really would be vitally offended if anyone suggested I would look and feel better if I dressed differently.


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 5, 2007)

butch said:


> If one's motive is entirely about self-acceptance, then they would already be approaching fat people of both genders to offer their 'kind' and 'helpful' 'advice'



Awesome post! That was an angle my outraged little skull hadn't considered but I think it's a very valid question. I'll be interested to see the responses it generates.

Tracey xx


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 5, 2007)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> Great Post!!
> 
> ...



Hey William,

There are plenty of men who admire and prefer fat women who truly accept and respect women and the choices they make for their bodies: Les Toil, JonBlaze, Biggie, etc. The two can peacefully coexist. One can admire someone without objectifying them.


----------



## William (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Tracey

Your post said "Williams post" which I thought you meant my post, now I see that you meant Russell Williams post, so I should not have answered your post :wubu: 

My Original post---

Hi

I always first listen to a person before I converse on most matters including Fat Acceptance. You have to know who you are talking to when opening a conversation.

Also at a NAAFA Dance why is it necessary to "make over" a Fat Person? I would think that it is more important to congratulate them for getting out and supporting themselves and others in Fat Acceptance.

Finally a Glamorous appearance should not be a requirement or a goal at a NAAFA dance.

Sorry

William 




BeaBea said:


> William,
> 
> Your OP stated that if a woman at a dance didn't respond to your compliments with a positive answer you had worked out a long reply where you covered dieting and its lack of statistical success, self esteem and your own personal feelings about size/weight and attractiveness etc. How is that NOT 'dealing with Fat Acceptance on a first meeting'?
> 
> ...


----------



## RedVelvet (Jun 5, 2007)

eightyseven said:


> Russell Williams... a legend in his own mind. Note the THIRTEEN self-references in the OP. I'm finally glad to see that others are noticing this.
> 
> Sorry to break it to you Russell, but your "activism" is ridiculous, ineffective, sometimes hurtful (as in this instance you've posted on) and often self-promoting. It's always seems to me as though you're more concerned with the fat on peoples' bodies than you are with the people themselves. Rarely in your ramblings about daily activities you partake in (which are *cough* riveting *cough*) do I see anything but an overglorification of your fat-acceptance "crusade." It is NOT your job to educate fat women on how to dress, act, or stand up for their rights. You don't live in their bodies, know their life stories, or much seem to perceive how they might react to your comments.




You are my hero. May I sit in your lap?


----------



## William (Jun 6, 2007)

Hi SL

I was not even limiting my comments to the relationship of FAs and BBWs. Fat Acceptance should cover Fat Women, Men, Seniors, children and the not so beautiful and handsome fat people. There are a lot of FFAs and some FAs that approach all fat in a accepting way.

William




TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Hey William,
> 
> There are plenty of men who admire and prefer fat women who truly accept and respect women and the choices they make for their bodies: Les Toil, JonBlaze, Biggie, etc. The two can peacefully coexist. One can admire someone without objectifying them.


----------



## CurvaceousBBWLover (Jun 6, 2007)

superodalisque said:


> i hate to tell you this but size acceptance is a journey a bbw must take on her own and you can't do it for her. and what you have said here wouldn't help anyone accept anything about herself other than that she was even a bigger loser than she thought in the first place.
> 
> and personally i'm really tired of FAs in the acceptance movement making pronouncements from on high. a lot of us already know the truth. there are many of you--especially the oldies, who have a pygmalion complex. you want to build a dream bbw. she is happily fat smiling and compliant and does not expect much of you. she will jump through any hoop or laundry list you provide because you have sufficiently undermined her self esteem to a point that she actually thinks you have something constructive to contribute. when you are finished with her she will truly believe that you are the only men who find her attractive, even though one in ten men adore bbws. and if we look closely into your pasts we find many of you have built their own personal hareems full of sad, dissatisfied and disillusioned statues. what bbws really need is for guys like you to stop trying to break them down.



The Pygmalion Complex is not unique to FAs. A lot of women want to make over their husbands and boyfriends. No matter who does the making over, the other person feels resentful.



Mimi said:


> I'm very new to posting here, and hope that as such I have a right to even comment on this (i.e. I hope that I'm not overstepping my bounds).
> 
> I noticed the title of this thread and thought I'd check it out, thinking I'd learn a little about FAs in Dimensions. Unfortunately the feeling I was left with after reading Russell's posts was uncomfortable at best. I believe there are men who want *credit* for being FAs, as if they are doing something difficult and grand ... and (cough) doing us a favor. That sort of mentality makes my skin crawl because the truth is that I'm attractive and if you, as a man, gets to spend time looking at me, *YOU* are the lucky one and nothing you ever say or do should ever imply otherwise.
> 
> ...



Russell used to be a schoolteacher. Perhaps he thinks that offering unsolicited advice to unknown women about how to dress is his way of teaching the world. Teaching is a noble profession, but most women don't want a strange older man offering unsolicited advice on how to dress.



ashmamma84 said:


> All I can say is; Speak my sister, speak!
> 
> I happen to be very fashion forward and carry myself in the highest regard, but even if I didn't, I sure wouldn't want some guy telling me what I should and shouldn't wear.
> 
> ...



Actually, I've seen Russell on several occasions. His clothing is not tailored and it definitely isn't high quality. I find it ironic that he would deem himself to be a fasion connisseur. 



BeaBea said:


> William,
> 
> Your OP stated that if a woman at a dance didn't respond to your compliments with a positive answer you had worked out a long reply where you covered dieting and its lack of statistical success, self esteem and your own personal feelings about size/weight and attractiveness etc. How is that NOT 'dealing with Fat Acceptance on a first meeting'?
> 
> ...



I understand the anger that some people may have felt towards Russell. But attacking him or any other person for giving unsolicited advice is called assault and battery. Violence is not an acceptable solution to this problem. There are 2 nonviolent ways to handle this. One, you can ignore him and walk away. Two, you can rip him apart verbally.


----------



## Carrie (Jun 6, 2007)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> I understand the anger that some people may have felt towards Russell. But attacking him or any other person for giving unsolicited advice is called assault and battery. Violence is not an acceptable solution to this problem. There are 2 nonviolent ways to handle this. One, you can ignore him and walk away. Two, you can rip him apart verbally.



Oy, Captain Literal. I wouldn't seriously knee someone in the groin for a verbal comment, nor do I think would BeaBea. Lecture unnecessary.


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 7, 2007)

William
Apologies for my confusion :doh: 
Tracey xx


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 7, 2007)

You know what bugs me about this? That the OP has not responded to any of these comments. If you truly believe yourself to be a champion of the size acceptance community then wouldn't you want to address concerns that members of that community have about your actions? 

Just pulling an Alfred Hitchcock and giving your cameo at the beginning really doesn't work. I'm interested to know why someone would think and do these things. It has the potential to be a good discussion.


----------



## SamanthaNY (Jun 7, 2007)

He does this. In a while, he'll reappear in a new thread with some other wonderful thing he's done for us.


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 7, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> He does this. In a while, he'll reappear in a new thread with some other wonderful thing he's done for us.



Well goodness me I find that irritating.


----------



## stan_der_man (Jun 7, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> You know what bugs me about this? That the OP has not responded to any of these comments. If you truly believe yourself to be a champion of the size acceptance community then wouldn't you want to address concerns that members of that community have about your actions?
> 
> Just pulling an Alfred Hitchcock and giving your cameo at the beginning really doesn't work. I'm interested to know why someone would think and do these things. It has the potential to be a good discussion.





SamanthaNY said:


> He does this. In a while, he'll reappear in a new thread with some other wonderful thing he's done for us.



I've also found that annoying in the past when people post something and vanish. It's sort of like "Coffee Talk" on Saturday Night Live... "here's your topic; discuss..." I think it's utterly lame for the OP of a thread to do that.

As for Russel, from what he's posted in the past, I think his intentions are good but he is so inept in the way he delivers his message that he ends up pissing off more people than he "helps".

Just my 2¢

Stan


----------



## LisaInNC (Jun 7, 2007)

(Once I was dancing with a woman who weighed about 240. She was not dressed well. As politely as I could said:


> I would have stabbed you on the spot.


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 7, 2007)

fa_man_stan said:


> I've also found that annoying in the past when people post something and vanish. It's sort of like "Coffee Talk" on Saturday Night Live... "here's your topic; discuss..." I think it's utterly lame for the OP of a thread to do that.


 
hahaha. That's exactly it. And I can't help but wonder if he's secretly reading all of these posts. But when someone is on a mission that is often, if not always, met with disagreement, they should listen and encourage discussion on that. 

I'm afraid that Mr. Williams is hurting more of these women than he realizes. Even if you don't think that size is a flaw, many women do, and people, as a rule, do NOT LIKE having their flaws discussed by a total stranger.


----------



## RedVelvet (Jun 7, 2007)

LisaInNC said:


> I would have stabbed you on the spot.





STABBY!!!!!!!! YAY!!!! ME STAB!!!! I STAB HIS HEAD!!!! 

View attachment Stabby1.jpg


----------



## Mini (Jun 7, 2007)

Russell, what you need to realize is that heroes don't brag about their accomplishments. Their actions speak louder than their words ever can.

My guess is that you see yourself as the ultimate FA altruist; women should kneel before your massive cock and unquenchable thirst for equality. You rock *so* hard.

Y'know what we call an altruist who calls attention to his actions? Well, for one, not a fuckin' altruist. We call him an annoying cunt.

"Hey, look, here comes that annoying cunt who just can't get over himself."

The idea that you're changing the world, one fat chick at a time is laughable. How would you react if I posted about holding doors open for cripples? You wouldn't give a flying fuck because it's not fucking news.

Get off your high fuckin' horse and actually READ some of the shit that gets posted here. A little humility would make you a lot more likeable.


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 7, 2007)

^^ I think I love you.


----------



## TCUBOB (Jun 7, 2007)

I bet Mini's post does not last the day. It's probably going to come down under "personal attack." However, I totally love it. 

It just goes to show that the taller you are, the smarter ass you are. Mini, you're totally 6 inches smarter ass than me. It must be the lack of oxygen at that altitude. Or something.


----------



## SamanthaNY (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't think Russell hears any of this. He is so singularly focused on advancing his agenda of fat acceptance, that messages to the contrary don't reach him. In part, that's not such a bad thing. I believe he simply interprets anything contrary to what he believes as negative or wrong, and either addresses it (in his inimitable way) or dismisses it. And on he goes. 

It's a great thing, that process of his, when we're talking about trying to get armless chairs in a public restaurant or medical office. He calmy doesn't take no for an answer, and pursues another avenue to get the job done. But, when that singular focus is applied to people, where finesse, sensitivity and understanding are useful, he comes across as a bull in a china-shop. A quiet, calm bull, but a bull nonetheless. 

The other problem is that I think Russell sees *everything* regarding fat people as _his__ business_. If tampons were body-size specific, he'd be all up in everyone's business, literally. :huh:


----------



## BeaBea (Jun 7, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> If tampons were body-size specific, he'd be all up in everyone's business, literally. :huh:



But the boxes do say 'Plus' and 'Super Plus' so does that mean...? 

Err, nope, I'm leaving that subject there and backing away slowly. Nothing to see here folks, just go about your business.

Tracey xx


----------



## TCUBOB (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok, so if fat acceptance is his agenda, what the driving force behind his agenda? Is he fat? His wife or SO? What makes him so singularly focused on pushing for what he sees as good for the fat community?

I guess what I'm asking, and no one may know the answer to this, where is his monomania coming from? What's it rooted in? Because while getting armless chairs or larger booths is fine, walking up to a fat woman and telling her that she looks unattractive and oh, BTW, if you want to LOOK attractive, do this or talk to these people.....not helpful.

I'm just curious.



SamanthaNY said:


> I don't think Russell hears any of this. He is so singularly focused on advancing his agenda of fat acceptance, that messages to the contrary don't reach him. In part, that's not such a bad thing. I believe he simply interprets anything contrary to what he believes as negative or wrong, and either addresses it (in his inimitable way) or dismisses it. And on he goes.
> 
> It's a great thing, that process of his, when we're talking about trying to get armless chairs in a public restaurant or medical office. He calmy doesn't take no for an answer, and pursues another avenue to get the job done. But, when that singular focus is applied to people, where finesse, sensitivity and understanding are useful, he comes across as a bull in a china-shop. A quiet, calm bull, but a bull nonetheless.
> 
> The other problem is that I think Russell sees *everything* regarding fat people as _his__ business_. If tampons were body-size specific, he'd be all up in everyone's business, literally. :huh:


----------



## AnnMarie (Jun 7, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> There was a moment at the HB event over memorial day when I told AnnMarie that I would really like to learn to accept myself. And she talked to me about it, and in about one hour made an enormous difference in my life. But see how that isn't the same? I told her that I was ready. She didn't say, "well, waxwing, you're never going to be thin, so forget about it. PS: some people think you're hot."



And I will have that conversation, or a variation on it, 100 times with you again if you need it.  Sometimes we just need to want it and have someone help us walk the path... but someone pushing you down it is never going to work - it has to come from within.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 7, 2007)

AnnMarie said:


> And I will have that conversation, or a variation on it, 100 times with you again if you need it.  Sometimes we just need to want it and have someone help us walk the path... but someone pushing you down it is never going to work - it has to come from within.



I'd understand this better if you were wearing a tube top.


----------



## LisaInNC (Jun 7, 2007)

Mini said:


> My guess is that you see yourself as the ultimate FA altruist; women should kneel before your massive cock and unquenchable thirst for equality. You rock *so* hard.



rock like...in a corner saying "5 mins to wapner"?


----------



## Mini (Jun 8, 2007)

LisaInNC said:


> rock like...in a corner saying "5 mins to wapner"?



Or like a kidney stone.


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 8, 2007)

Mini said:


> Or like a kidney stone.



Wait. Russell gave you kidney stones? 

I'm confused.


----------



## Mini (Jun 8, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> Wait. Russell gave you kidney stones?
> 
> I'm confused.



My mistake. Just indigestion.


----------



## Waxwing (Jun 8, 2007)

Mini said:


> My mistake. Just indigestion.



It hurts when I pee.

(and on that delicious note I'm going to bed.)


----------



## Mini (Jun 8, 2007)

Waxwing said:


> It hurts when I pee.



You certainly know how to make a dude's heart go all a-twitter. :wubu:


----------

