# The "Friend Zone"



## Grizzlybear (Jan 10, 2013)

This has happened to me several times, so my interest was piqued when I saw this video in my YouTube Subscriptions feed:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IGK2KprU-To" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm interested in what the community thinks. In a way, I kind of agree with the whole analysis. I'm trying to wrap my head around what that means.


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 13, 2013)

It makes sense.

I've had some recent experiences with it. Last July it happened to me. Moderately conservative atheist (her), and moderately liberal christian (me). I actually pushed away the thought of being with this person for years because I knew we have different opinions on things. I was willing to make compromises, and I made plans to try my best to get things to work out. But even when you put a lot of effort into a potential relationship, you don't always get the outcome that you want.

Unfortunately it changed our friendship forever, but it's just another lesson to add to my list. There are certain things that make people incompatible, but it's different for every person. Some people have to be with someone with a similar background, traits, and believe in certain concepts. 

Compatibility is a very complex thing, and while I think some couples are truly compatible with one another on all levels (Despite inevitable quarrels here and there), most of us have at least some level of compromise/incompatibility that is a factor. Some are willing to compromise more than others. Some people have things that while important to them are not important to share with partners/potential partners.


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## mediaboy (Jan 13, 2013)

imbedded links don't work.

its really a a matter of self respect.

if some one isn't willing to give back what.you're willing to give them then respect yourself enough to to find some one who will.

this friend zone shit happened to me once in high school and after six miserable months of awful depression I realized I was just ha.ging in there hoping this girl would notice I was always there when her other idiot suiters weren't and eventually I reallized she did and she.didn't give a shit. the bottom line was she knew all along Iwas misserably depressed about her but did nothing to discuss it or bri.g it up which means she didn't give to hair flips about me but what's even worse is I didn't have the stones too myself. 

I didn't respect myself.enough.to realize bitches ain't worth it. put yourself first and eventually you'll fi.d some one that actually wants to be in a relationship with you.

so get to, do some ducking pushups and learn to dance and curse and stand up straight and make eye contact.


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## CarlaSixx (Jan 13, 2013)

I pretty much put all guys in the friend zone. But it's basically because I assume that's where they already put me. But then if they take a long time to voice their feelings for me, they get stuck in the friend zone because it becomes too comfortable to change that.


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## dharmabean (Jan 13, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> ....because I assume that's where they already put me.




Oh how I so relate to this.


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## mediaboy (Jan 13, 2013)

As a male: I personally, do not have any female friends whom I would not, at the slightest drop of a hat, have sex with.

Unless they are friends of my girl friend.

You don't shit where you eat.

So, ladies, I hope that clarifies this entire situation.

Again, if anything I think the above female opinion reaffirms my hypothesis that it is a self respect issue.

Why don't you ladies assume that you are beautiful and that men want to have sex with you even in cases where you believe they are initially drawn in by your charming wit and sense of humor?

EDIT

I don't want to come off as rude, I suppose maybe there are some very good reasons that end in horrible stories where the shoe was on the other foot for you girls. I'm sorry that happened. 

The more I think about it this definitely isn't a male vs female issue.

The mirror goes both ways on this one.

When I think about it now the lesson I took away from my own experience with the friend zone and the posts in this thread can be summed up along the lines of "How can you expect some one else to love you if you don't even love you?"

After all, if you don't love yourself then you will definitely be willing to force yourself through misery because after all "Screw me, I don't give a crap about me!"


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## dharmabean (Jan 13, 2013)

I've always been told, "Women promise sex for a relationship, Men promise a relationship for sex."



mediaboy said:


> As a male: I personally, do not have any female friends whom I would not, at the slightest drop of a hat, have sex with.
> 
> Unless they are friends of my girl friend.
> 
> You don't shit where you eat.


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## CarlaSixx (Jan 13, 2013)

Dharmabean, I've been told the same thing. 

Normally the straight guys seem to jus tolerate me. There's no actual impression that they find me even remotely physically attractive. Whether that impression is true or not doesn't matter. That's what they give out. And most of the time, the straight guys I meet are just best friends of the gay guys I hang out with. So the straight guys really DO just tolerate me for the sake of their male friends. If some happen to be interested in me, I really don't know until it's too late.


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## bigmac (Jan 14, 2013)

mediaboy said:


> As a male: I personally, do not have any female friends whom I would not, at the slightest drop of a hat, have sex with.
> 
> ...



I have several female friends -- most of who I've had sex with at some point. This works fine so long as the female doesn't believe that sex is some magical thing that automatically transforms a relationship or a sacred gift to be bestowed only upon her one true love.

Friends with females seems to work if everyone involved as a _morally causal attitude_ regarding sex.


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## PeanutButterfly (Jan 14, 2013)

I don't know, Mediaboy, this sounds great in theory and for you I'm sure it's true but in a world filled with many, many fat phobic men I haven't found this to be the case. I'm really not an insecure woman, at all. I'm with someone now who treats me wonderfully. But before this awesome dude I was friend zoned, a lot. It does exist. 

Guys would spend hours talking to me, laughing with me, flirting with me but the problem was they didn't want to have sex with me because I was a fat girl. Or if they secretly did, they were way too much of a pussy to admit to anyone else. Secret sex might as well be the friend zone because you're not getting a relationship from that. I'm like 90% sure that if I showed up on their doorstep 70 lbs thinner all of a sudden they'd realize "I've always been into you!" 

Now to be fair I'm still in college so maybe this a mentality that some men grow out of. And maybe most men aren't as fat phobic as these winners I've been blessed to know -___- but my experience has been that the friend zone does exist and it sucks. I've just learned not to play that game anymore. If a guy doesn't make a move within a few weeks you're heading down friend zone territory fast. Short of a radical physical transformation I have yet to figure out how to get out.




mediaboy said:


> As a male: I personally, do not have any female friends whom I would not, at the slightest drop of a hat, have sex with.
> 
> Unless they are friends of my girl friend.
> 
> ...


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 14, 2013)

PeanutButterfly said:


> Now to be fair I'm still in college so maybe this a mentality that some men grow out of.



Quite a lot of them do. Part of the problem is that women mature socially and emotionally earlier than men do. So most of the college men around you are at the stage YOU were at in high school: not quite sure who they are, they tend to rely on peer feedback. When I was in college I wasn't mature enough to think about the needs of the girls I dated: I thought about impressing the guys I hung out with by being seen with a classy-looking girl . The bad news is that a lot of guys never grow out of that mentality: while introverts tend to make their own decisions and to hell with what others think, extraverts need public approval and are generally more concerned with appearances and getting the approval of others. Then again, there are degrees of introversion and extraversion, so it doesn't necessarily mean the latter will put you into the friend zone. But ladies who are interested in a relationship might do well to check out the quiet guys.


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## Tad (Jan 14, 2013)

PB, I don’t know if this could be a factor in your experiences or not…

I’ve read a couple of pieces lately saying that as most colleges have developed a majority female population, it has really changed relationship dynamics there. Essentially that at college age, what motivates guys most strongly is sex. In the past when there were fewer women than men on campuses, guys had to really strive to stand out if they were going to date another student, or else work to get to know people in the broader community if they were going to connect with someone there….and in either case, this often required getting into a proper relationship if they were going to get much sex.

But that now, with more women than men in most colleges, what guys have to do in order to get sex has really, really, dropped. That true relationships have become much less common, that &#8216;hook-ups’ and &#8216;fuck-buddies’ have become far more common. Essentially that even if some hold to wanting a relationship, enough will consent to sex without a real relationship that it really changes the whole dynamic. The side effect is social sphere less focussed around couples, and more about larger, loosely defined, groups of friends, some of whom hook up occasionally.

Like I said, I’ve just been reading this, not been on campuses to see it myself (although, one nephew started uni this year, and talking to him at Christmas his degree of pickiness of what women he’d consider worthy of interest was fairly shocking for one of my generation, when the question was far more what women would deign to show interest in you)

In that sort of situation I could see guys friend-zoning a lot of women, in the &#8216;hey, maybe sometime we’ll be hanging out and things will happen, that would be cool” sort of mind-set. But not putting much effort into going after any but the ones that have that mix of personal appeal and status enhancing main stream appeal (i.e. skinny, have generically media approved looks and style).

Pure speculation on my part, just wondering if that sounds like what could be happening, from your perspective?


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## Oona (Jan 14, 2013)

I actually got stuck in the friend zone by a guy recently. 

I don't think I ever really realized how crappy it can feel until that happened to me. So I've made a promise that if the situation arises again, I will always be forthright and honest about my feelings and why I wont date the guy (not that I wasn't before, but it was more of a mental note).


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## Grizzlybear (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, I started this thread, I guess it's time I made some responses.



CarlaSixx said:


> Dharmabean, I've been told the same thing.
> 
> Normally the straight guys seem to jus tolerate me. There's no actual impression that they find me even remotely physically attractive. Whether that impression is true or not doesn't matter. That's what they give out. And most of the time, the straight guys I meet are just best friends of the gay guys I hang out with. So the straight guys really DO just tolerate me for the sake of their male friends. If some happen to be interested in me, I really don't know until it's too late.



I can tell you this much, you look simply stunning in your profile picture (I'm forced to assume that's you). I've learned through my experiences that if a person doesn't speak his/her mind about something, an opportunity is lost. I don't like to lose opportunities, so win or lose, I go for it. It sounds like the guys in your life are a little... flaky by comparison. I could be wrong, and there are definitely facets of your situation that I am not aware of, but I'd say that if none of the straight ones are actively pursuing you, there's something odd there.



PeanutButterfly said:


> I don't know, Mediaboy, this sounds great in theory and for you I'm sure it's true but in a world filled with many, many fat phobic men I haven't found this to be the case. I'm really not an insecure woman, at all. I'm with someone now who treats me wonderfully. But before this awesome dude I was friend zoned, a lot. It does exist.
> 
> Guys would spend hours talking to me, laughing with me, flirting with me but the problem was they didn't want to have sex with me because I was a fat girl. Or if they secretly did, they were way too much of a pussy to admit to anyone else. Secret sex might as well be the friend zone because you're not getting a relationship from that. I'm like 90% sure that if I showed up on their doorstep 70 lbs thinner all of a sudden they'd realize "I've always been into you!"
> 
> Now to be fair I'm still in college so maybe this a mentality that some men grow out of. And maybe most men aren't as fat phobic as these winners I've been blessed to know -___- but my experience has been that the friend zone does exist and it sucks. I've just learned not to play that game anymore. If a guy doesn't make a move within a few weeks you're heading down friend zone territory fast. Short of a radical physical transformation I have yet to figure out how to get out.



I know I grew out of that. In fact, my mentality on that level has always been different than that of society. I've been shy about things in my life, but never my adoration of the Rubenesque woman. Physical size has never been an issue for me, just mental size; I can't stand a woman that can't think her way out of a situation, or holds outdated prejudices about herself or others.



mediaboy said:


> imbedded links don't work.



You're the only one who has complained of this (not that I'm saying you're wrong). I'll link again:

http://youtu.be/IGK2KprU-To

That's all for now, more to come...


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## Miskatonic (Jan 14, 2013)

I can't speak for women who are friend zoned but in my experience most of the men who complain about being in the friend zone are the kind of men who hover around a woman being nice to her and thinking that because they're nice to the woman that means she owes them sex or love. Either that or they just don't get that no means no and hang on to something far past being shot down, making it awkward and weird all around.

The friendzone is super easy to avoid. You gotta be yourself, you gotta talk to the girl like she's a person and not just something you seek to conquer, and you gotta understand that if she's not interested, she's not interested, and no amount of being nice is gonna change that.

I've been in the friendzone. I know what it's like. But once I realized that I was putting myself in it and changed my mindset and my approach when it came to women, not only was I able to cultivate better friendships with women that didn't go all weird and awkward, but I also felt better about myself because I didn't let myself fall into a cycle of obsession over "the one". It all comes down to this; if you like someone, ask them if they want to get together sometime. Obviously don't be creepy fast about it, but don't wait too long, either. And don't disguise it as just wanting to hang out as friends. You like her. Make it known. If she is interested, cool. If she's not, she's not, and at least you've got a friend now. Just don't let that interest fester. You'll be so busy pining over the one who doesn't like you back that you'll miss the one who does.

There's no need to torture yourself by constantly hoping that she'll change your mind if you're just nice enough.


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## dharmabean (Jan 14, 2013)

Miskatonic said:


> The friendzone is super easy to avoid. You gotta be yourself, you gotta talk to the girl like she's a person and* not just something you seek to conquer*, and you gotta understand that if she's not interested, she's not interested, and no amount of being nice is gonna change that.




Couldn't agree more.


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## mediaboy (Jan 16, 2013)

PeanutButterfly said:


> I don't know, Mediaboy, this sounds great in theory...





Chicken shit & closeted FA's is pretty much it's own thread.

Secret sexers deserve their own tidy corner of hell.

FYI I used to be introduced at parties by my friends as, "This is Mediaboy, he likes fat chicks."

What you're describing is something a lot of ladies on this board have been through.

My personal advice with regard to being secret sex'd and friend zoned is forget those guys. You deserve better. Kick that shit head to the curb and move on to the next one. If its costs you a week to find out some one is a complete douche then consider it a bargain, best to found it sooner rather than say in a year.


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## CastingPearls (Jan 16, 2013)

mediaboy said:


> If its costs you a week to find out some one is a complete douche then consider it a bargain, best to found it sooner rather *than say in a year*.



Or two.


No truer words were ever spoken. 

or erm..typed.


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## samuraiscott (Jan 16, 2013)

When I was younger, being friend zoned was a big deal. Like, I couldn't understand why I was always in that category. I realized that sometimes being told you were a friend and nothing more could be a blessing. I have been lead on before by girls that really had no interest in me romantically but pretended that they were. At least most of the women whom friend zoned me could be honest and say, hey we can be friends, great friends even, but nothing more. I can always use real friends in my life. Also later I learned that sometimes being a friend is better than being involved romantically with some people.

But anywhos, that's my experience.


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## bmann0413 (Jan 16, 2013)

Miskatonic said:


> I can't speak for women who are friend zoned but in my experience most of the men who complain about being in the friend zone are the kind of men who hover around a woman being nice to her and thinking that because they're nice to the woman that means she owes them sex or love. Either that or they just don't get that no means no and hang on to something far past being shot down, making it awkward and weird all around.
> 
> The friendzone is super easy to avoid. You gotta be yourself, you gotta talk to the girl like she's a person and not just something you seek to conquer, and you gotta understand that if she's not interested, she's not interested, and no amount of being nice is gonna change that.
> 
> ...









I was about to say something about the so-called "friend zone," but he summed it up already.

I blame Tumblr for giving me this mindset. lol


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## crosseyedhamster (Jan 16, 2013)

If I could go back and have lunch with my teenage self, I'd tell me not to expect my crush to do all the work. You can't expect them to just be interested, *you* have to actually be interest*ing*.

And my heart goes out to you, Carla. You're a beautiful woman and hopefully you'll meet some guys that appreciate it


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## NoWayOut (Jan 16, 2013)

I personally have a ton of female friends who I would never have sex with. It's not that I don't find these women attractive, it's my mindset that I only get to be with one woman in my life, the woman I marry. I have already found the love of my life, and upon marrying her, she will be the only woman I will ever have sex with and ever want to have sex with.

As such, I don't want other women besides her thinking of me as sexy or anything like that. I'm already taken, and I have no interest in a relationship with any other woman. I am up-front with any woman I meet that I am completely committed to my girlfriend, and any attempt to try to date me will result in us no longer speaking.

At this point in my life, I actually WANT to be put in the friend zone, no matter what the woman looks like. I love having female friends, because it gives me a different perspective on things when I have a disagreement with my girlfriend, and I'm perfectly willing to return the favor. Want to discuss your day? Sure. Problems with your boyfriend? Happy to listen. Looking for sex? Lose my phone number.


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 16, 2013)

NoWayOut said:


> *I personally have a ton of female friends who I would never have sex with. It's not that I don't find these women attractive, it's my mindset that I only get to be with one woman in my life, the woman I marry. *I have already found the love of my life, and upon marrying her, she will be the only woman I will ever have sex with and ever want to have sex with.
> 
> As such, I don't want other women besides her thinking of me as sexy or anything like that. I'm already taken, and I have no interest in a relationship with any other woman. I am up-front with any woman I meet that I am completely committed to my girlfriend, and any attempt to try to date me will result in us no longer speaking.
> 
> At this point in my life, I actually WANT to be put in the friend zone, no matter what the woman looks like. I love having female friends, because it gives me a different perspective on things when I have a disagreement with my girlfriend, and I'm perfectly willing to return the favor. Want to discuss your day? Sure. Problems with your boyfriend? Happy to listen. Looking for sex? Lose my phone number.



Great great point. I think that's a common misconception. The things we find valuable in others varies wildly.


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## Miskatonic (Jan 17, 2013)

NoWayOut said:


> I personally have a ton of female friends who I would never have sex with. It's not that I don't find these women attractive, it's my mindset that I only get to be with one woman in my life, the woman I marry. I have already found the love of my life, and upon marrying her, she will be the only woman I will ever have sex with and ever want to have sex with.
> 
> As such, I don't want other women besides her thinking of me as sexy or anything like that. I'm already taken, and I have no interest in a relationship with any other woman. I am up-front with any woman I meet that I am completely committed to my girlfriend, and any attempt to try to date me will result in us no longer speaking.
> 
> At this point in my life, I actually WANT to be put in the friend zone, no matter what the woman looks like. I love having female friends, because it gives me a different perspective on things when I have a disagreement with my girlfriend, and I'm perfectly willing to return the favor. Want to discuss your day? Sure. Problems with your boyfriend? Happy to listen. Looking for sex? Lose my phone number.



There's a difference between the friend zone and being friends with a woman. If you're friends, there isn't any real awkwardness or sexual tension. Just platonic respect. The friend zone is a term that typically refers to being stuck as being friends when you really want a romantic relationship.


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## gangstadawg (Jan 18, 2013)

bigmac said:


> I have several female friends -- most of who I've had sex with at some point. This works fine so long as the female doesn't believe that sex is some magical thing that automatically transforms a relationship or a sacred gift to be bestowed only upon her one true love.
> 
> Friends with females seems to work if everyone involved as a _morally causal attitude_ regarding sex.



friends with benefits?


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## NoWayOut (Jan 18, 2013)

Miskatonic said:


> There's a difference between the friend zone and being friends with a woman. If you're friends, there isn't any real awkwardness or sexual tension. Just platonic respect. The friend zone is a term that typically refers to being stuck as being friends when you really want a romantic relationship.



I read the two as one and the same, because other guys here were saying they have no female friends they wouldn't have sex with outside of their girlfriend/wife's friends.


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## bigmac (Jan 18, 2013)

Miskatonic said:


> I can't speak for women who are friend zoned but in my experience most of the men who complain about being in the friend zone are the kind of men who hover around a woman *being nice* ...



Being "nice" never works.


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## Tau (Jan 19, 2013)

Male people who whine on and on about being 'nice guys' are generally fucking creepy creepers. If you want a relationship with a woman let her know. If she says no, that all she wants is friendship, either move the fuck on or be her friend. Her real friend not some loser hoping that someday she'll slip up and land on your dick, rewarding you 'being there' for her when all you were actually there for was your penis.


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## Paquito (Jan 19, 2013)

Tau said:


> Male people who whine on and on about being 'nice guys' are generally fucking creepy creepers. If you want a relationship with a woman let her know. If she says no, that all she wants is friendship, either move the fuck on or be her friend. Her real friend not some loser hoping that someday she'll slip up and land on your dick, rewarding you 'being there' for her when all you were actually there for was your penis.



Co-signed.


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## cinnamitch (Jan 19, 2013)

Tau said:


> Male people who whine on and on about being 'nice guys' are generally fucking creepy creepers. If you want a relationship with a woman let her know. If she says no, that all she wants is friendship, either move the fuck on or be her friend. Her real friend not some loser hoping that someday she'll slip up and land on your dick, rewarding you 'being there' for her when all you were actually there for was your penis.



Agree with 100%


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## penguin (Jan 19, 2013)

Women aren't vending machines where if you put in enough Nice, sex comes out. Nice Guys seem to think they are, and that by golly gosh, they deserve it.


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## CastingPearls (Jan 22, 2013)

Tau said:


> Male people who whine on and on about being 'nice guys' are generally fucking creepy creepers. If you want a relationship with a woman let her know. If she says no, that all she wants is friendship, either move the fuck on or be her friend. Her real friend not some loser hoping that someday she'll slip up and land on your dick, rewarding you 'being there' for her when all you were actually there for was your penis.


Where the *HELL* have you been, missy????

Thirded...or fourthed....whatevs


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## azerty (Jan 22, 2013)

penguin said:


> Women aren't vending machines where if you put in enough Nice, sex comes out. Nice Guys seem to think they are, and that by golly gosh, they deserve it.



So true and nicely said


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## Jim Miller (Jan 22, 2013)

Most people create these problems for themselves, through no fault of their own, because of our continuing social tragedy of sexism. The prevailing trend seems to be that men are psychopathic abusers and women are neurotic basketcases.

But that's only because this is what society tells men and women to be.

Other people, myself included, don't have these problems in life. The problems simply don't exist, because we have chosen for the social structures that sustain them not to be relevant in our lives. There is no such thing as "the friend zone." There are people with whom one pursues a sexual relationship, and people with whom one does not. Gender does not enter into it. There is no such thing as "men" and "women," the moment you decide there isn't. That's a construct cooked up by people who want to keep our civilization from becoming what it deserves to be, and "the friend zone" is just one more out of countless thousands of ancillary social conventions to support the false dichotomy of gender.

In the real world, outside the lies most people live, there is only male and female, and _all of us_ are *human* above and beyond the few small differences of sex.


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## snuggletiger (Jan 22, 2013)

friend zone is better then being loved like a brother


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## ClashCityRocker (Jan 22, 2013)

"the friend zone" seems to be comprised mostly presumptuous dudes who are met with rejection or those who don't communicate their feelings in a timely and open manor..so yeah, the majority of us. i think we've all been there as one or the other, and, having been there, i think we can deduce that to avoid giving platonic friendship a moniker with such negative connotations as "the friend zone" (twilight zone? dead zone?) the best course of action is COMMUNICATION.


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## crosseyedhamster (Jan 23, 2013)

I think an important component to the friendzone is that you actually be friends.

This is a part I see people on BOTH side (desirer and desiree) have struggles with.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2013)

Miskatonic said:


> I can't speak for women who are friend zoned but in my experience most of the men who complain about being in the friend zone are the kind of men who hover around a woman being nice to her and thinking that because they're nice to the woman that means she owes them sex or love. Either that or they just don't get that no means no and hang on to something far past being shot down, making it awkward and weird all around.
> 
> The friendzone is super easy to avoid. You gotta be yourself, you gotta talk to the girl like she's a person and not just something you seek to conquer, and you gotta understand that if she's not interested, she's not interested, and no amount of being nice is gonna change that.
> 
> ...



Easier said than implemented. You're totally right, though; I'm doing nothing but being stupid and making things awkward.


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## Paquito (Jan 23, 2013)




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## CarlaSixx (Jan 23, 2013)

Paquito said:


>



Omg. Yes. Exactly.

:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:


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## KittyKitten (Jan 24, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Being "nice" never works.




Well nice is great, but OVERLY NICE, is such a turn off. Being syrupy sweet is just as a big of a turn off as being overly aggressive. It gets to the point of creepiness, like Tau said. Too much of anything isn't good. I can speak for myself and many women and say that we tend to like men who are nice with AN EDGE, not necessarily a 'badboy', but a sweet man that is a little rough around the edges. I like to feel safe and loved. A man with the perfect balance of strength and tenderness. That gets my engine running. An overly sweet, spineless nice guy is not for me. It is no wonder many of these types of guys end up in the friend zone category. And then complain that women want the 'thugs' and 'badboys'. Uh no, we want confidence and a backbone. 

When I was younger, a friends with benefits arrangement sounded fine, but once I became older, I yearn to spend the rest of my life with someone. Sex is extremely easy to find for a woman, but a lasting love is the hardest of all. Too many men of this generation aren't even trying anymore; they don't want to put any effort into a relationship, let alone marriage. Haha, marriage! And much of it comes down to fear and/or the belief that most women aren't for shit, even if the woman treats him with love and respect. Sad to say. It's not easy in this dating world, and as I have become older, I have lost my optimism for the world. I still have hope, but not optimism.


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## penguin (Jan 24, 2013)

There's a huge difference between being nice and being "nice." The latter is what you do just to get something you think you deserve from someone else. Nice Guys (TM) subscribe to that version.


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## bigmac (Jan 25, 2013)

Attraction is either present or its not. If its not there hanging around being "nice" is a waste of time if what you're seeking is romance -- move on.

The other side of the coin -- if there is mutual attraction don't squander it -- take the relationship to a higher level.

At least for me this is was a fairly quick process (I proposed to my wife on our third date). Whether or not there's mutual attraction should be fairly obvious fairly quickly.


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## penguin (Jan 25, 2013)

It's not about whether there's attraction there or not, it's about people pretending to be friends in order to get them some, and feeling they deserve more no matter how the other person feels.


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## bigmac (Jan 25, 2013)

penguin said:


> It's not about whether there's attraction there or not, it's about people pretending to be friends in order to get them some, and feeling they deserve more no matter how the other person feels.



The issues are related. Guys who try to get girls to give it up by being "nice" are pursuing an ineffective (and rather pathetic) strategy. They are trying to force attraction where none exists. Far better if they just move on and try to find person with who there is a mutual attraction. These "nice" guys don't seem to realize that there are plenty of fish out there.

Confession time -- I used to be one of those "nice" guys. As a strategy for getting laid it doesn't work for shit. I got lots more play once I stopped being "nice".


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 25, 2013)

(Just me musing while thinking about the topic)

Being willing to have a relationship with any of of your friends is not the same thing as intentionally having them there for that purpose or looking for it often. I think some forget there is a middle. Being interested or not and pursuit are two very different things.


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## Lamia (Jan 26, 2013)

When I was in high school I had 3 guy friends and we all hung out in a group of 6 3 girls and 3 guys. None of them had any interest in us girls. All 3 are now gay. I was used to being friends with guys who showed no interest in me, but I had assumed it was because I wasn't desirable.
When I went to college and started hanging out with guys who were straight and interested in me I didn't pick up on the signals and therefore didn't acknowledge their feelings. Years later I would think about those interactions and with hindsight go...."ohhhhhh that's what he meant". :doh:
I have no guy friends now just my boyfriend who is my best friend.


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## CarlaSixx (Jan 26, 2013)

Lamia said:


> When I went to college and started hanging out with guys who were straight and interested in me I didn't pick up on the signals and therefore didn't acknowledge their feelings. Years later I would think about those interactions and with hindsight go...."ohhhhhh that's what he meant". :doh:



This is a bit of what I have been going through lately. My gay friends are pointing out guys that hit on me and stuff. I'm totally oblivious to it until I realise what they're talking about minutes or hours or even days later. And it's making sense to things that happened back in high school as well. 

I'm used to "gay culture cues" of interest and my gay friends doing things for shits and giggles with me. Didn't know some of them could indicate actual interest in the straight world til everyone started telling me I was coming off as a bitch for blowing off every guy that came near me. 
I just... didn't know! lol.


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## mzfluff (Jan 26, 2013)

i but everyone in the friend zone


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## bigmac (Jan 27, 2013)

KittyKitten said:


> Well nice is great, but OVERLY NICE, is such a turn off. Being syrupy sweet is just as a big of a turn off as being overly aggressive. It gets to the point of creepiness, like Tau said. Too much of anything isn't good. I can speak for myself and many women and say that we tend to like men who are nice with AN EDGE, not necessarily a 'badboy', but a sweet man that is a little rough around the edges. I like to feel safe and loved. A man with the perfect balance of strength and tenderness. That gets my engine running. An overly sweet, spineless nice guy is not for me. It is no wonder many of these types of guys end up in the friend zone category. And then complain that women want the 'thugs' and 'badboys'. Uh no, we want *confidence and a backbone.*
> 
> When I was younger, a friends with benefits arrangement sounded fine, but once I became older, I yearn to spend the rest of my life with someone. Sex is extremely easy to find for a woman, but a lasting love is the hardest of all. *Too many men of this generation aren't even trying anymore*; they don't want to put any effort into a relationship, let alone marriage. Haha, marriage! And much of it comes down to fear and/or the belief that most women aren't for shit, even if the woman treats him with love and respect. Sad to say. It's not easy in this dating world, and as I have become older, I have lost my optimism for the world. I still have hope, but not optimism.



This post got me thinking -- it raises an interesting issue -- why are marriage minded // marriageable men are on the decline. I've come to the conclusion that unemployment / /under-employment // job insecurity play a major roll.

Its hard to have confidence in yourself and backbone when you're unemployed or liable to be so at any moment. Also, without decent secure jobs guys are in no position to even think about marriage. So its not at all surprising many guys are not interested in long-term relationships (or at least pretend so). Its a way to minimize the dissonance between the life they'd really like to live and the life that is possible in today's economy.

This generally bad situation is made even worse by the fact that many men are not longer in the labor force (in many communities a huge percentage of marriage age men are incarcerated or have records that make them basically unemployable). Yet another factor is the fact that the jobs that are available require traits that are more traditionally associated with women. And, women now out number men at college by a significant margin.

While we obviously need to work on the economy as a society -- at an individual level both guys and women are going to have to redefine their expectations of marriage as time doesn't stand still. The sad fact is that marriage in the new normal age means not expecting a nice house with picket fence (or even a decent condo).

Bottom line -- its damn hard to be marriage minded when you're not financially viable.


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## CarlaSixx (Jan 27, 2013)

I think you're right, Bigmac, as I have had male friends say the same thing.

Their girlfriends start pressuring them after a year of being together to one day get married and the guys freak out. Some of them are only at temp jobs, some only ever on welfare, and their girlfriends are the same. So the guys obviously don't see what could help by getting married. 

My one friend has been with her boyfriend for 6 years and been pressuring him for marriage for at least 3. He's told her every single time that he isn't ready for marriage because he wants a stable income and housing situation before anything serious happens. She said she doesn't care, she just wants the commitment. Meanwhile, she wants the princess-sized wedding. 

I'd say he's got a level head about this. She absolutely does not. But her vision is in the norm with females, it seems, and I just don't get it. 

She's been pressuring him to have children and get married, and yet both of them have been living at home with their parents, separate cities, for a little over a year now. They have lived together in the past, but living in separate cities for a long time and yet trying to get pregnant and get married?! I tell her very often that she is deluded. She thinks it'll make things that he wants come faster. Seriously? Deluded!

She hasn't even been at her own job for 3 months yet, the probation period is 9 months, and her bf is now between jobs. But she's still pressuring for things.

This is so very common with women that it's frustrating. It even makes it hard to date because guys see this so often that it's come to the point that they expect all girls to think that way. So they do friend zone. And they do "fwbs" because they don't want that pressure to happen.


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## Shinobi_Hime-Sama (Jan 27, 2013)

I have been with my boyfriend for almost three years now, and the subject of marriage has come up between us. I don't push for it for a few reasons:

1) I have no job, no savings and a student loan hanging over my head

2) He lives 2 hours away from me

3) I can't contribute anything to a household with no money of my own

4) I'm not a golddigger and it bugs the hell out me that he pays for everything when we do get to see each other

Not every girlfriend starts tossing around the M word after a year, I think that's way to early to be asking for if you don't have some sort of stability of your own. I'll admit I was with my ex for eight years and there was a time that I was one of those girlfriends who was asking for the M word, but that was before I had anything of my own to my name. I had no job then either.


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## bigmac (Jan 27, 2013)

Conservatives are always pushing marriage as a cure for poverty citing statistics indicating that married couples experience lower levels of poverty. I'm becoming more and more sure they have cause and effect mixed up. Its looking like married couples are better off, not because they got married, but because they had the resources to get married in the first place.


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## Brooklyn Red Leg (Jan 27, 2013)

Look out! It's a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!!11!

For a slightly different take on the 'Friend Zone'.


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## mediaboy (Jan 28, 2013)

Paquito said:


>





Lol. white knighting is something completely different bit your web comic is humorous even if it doesn't pertain to the topic at hand. MAH LADY


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## mediaboy (Jan 28, 2013)

ATTN: You giant lonely nerds.

Play this game, it is relevant to your dick and heart's interests.

No girls allowed though.

(sorry girls)

http://www.peroxidecomics.com/escape-from-friend-zone-game/


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## superodalisque (Jan 28, 2013)

of course it could be just chemistry that puts a guy i the friend zone and there is nothing he can do about it. from my perspective guys put themselves in the friend zone by being too afraid, distant or just out of touch with what's happening around them. 

here are some of my suggestions for a guy:

1) never just hang out in the beginning. actually ask her out on a real date. tell her it's a date.

2) if you really can't feel comfy dating a woman because you have no money, 
leave her alone and stop fawning over her.

3) don't hang around waiting for her to make the first moves. if you like her 
let her know. if she's attracted to you she will respond, if not it as not 
meant.

4) never go on group dates or out with a bunch of friends with her until you are sure she knows you are into her and dating her. group dates are confusing situations and you are setting her up to perhaps get attached to someone else before she can know you well enough. she can also get the idea that you're interested in someone else. i can't tell you how many times i've gone off a guy because some woman was hovering around trying to give the impression something was going on when it wasn't or telling me she has a big honking crush on him. too much drama. besides, group dating is really not something you should be doing when you're past 30 for sure.

5) make a real phone call and don't just text or chat. always texting or chatting is for fraidy cats or just friends. if you want to make real emotional connection and not have a woman misread your tone into the friend zone call her. 

6) don't give her your number and have her call you. i know it's the modern world but women like to be pursued. they want to be wanted. she wont get confused if you ask for her number and then call her-- don't wait to long to do it either.

7) don't do any of the gaming bs. the only kind woman it will get you is a psycho. the one you really want will put you right into the friend zone because she recognize the emotional bs right away because she is smart. that is part of why you really want to date her right? 

8) be a man of your word. call when you say you are going to call. be there when you say you are going to be there. if you flake out she will never feel you are that interested in her and what chemistry there is will probably fizzle out. if a woman feels you aren't really interested--friend zone.

9) don't talk her out of it. don't tell her all of the reasons why you shouldn't be trying to date someone or have a relationship. either she'll think you just want someone to hang out with or you just want a fuck buddy. it's okay to say that if it's all you want, but if you want more don't try to convince her what a bad deal you are. 

10) be straight and say "i don't want to be just your friend". nothing could be clearer or more to the point.


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## Saoirse (Jan 28, 2013)

Women have a period of time when they are able to have children, clocks ticking! If a woman wants to be married and start popping out babies at a relatively young age then yes she's going to pressure her man into thinking about popping the question. I see nothing wrong with that.


Eta- if everyone waited till they were completely stable and financially good and blah blah blah, no one would be getting married!


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## superodalisque (Jan 28, 2013)

Saoirse said:


> Women have a period of time when they are able to have children, clocks ticking! If a woman wants to be married and start popping out babies at a relatively young age then yes she's going to pressure her man into thinking about popping the question. I see nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 
> Eta- if everyone waited till they were completely stable and financially good and blah blah blah, no one would be getting married!



i agree that women should not put their lives on hold. time is valuable. if things are really that rickety as far as finances and she wants a more serious relationship she should find somebody else. it's a big problem if you have to pressure someone. that means he really doesn't want to be in a serious relationship with you. take a hint. if he really wants a woman bad enough he'll figure out something. but usually the guy does nothing when he knows the woman will keep hanging around anyway. it's odd how some of the same guys can manage to afford other things they want. i don't think women should be worrying about stuff like that when they know where the door is.


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## bigmac (Jan 29, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> ... it's odd how some of the same guys can *manage to afford other things they want.* i don't think women should be worrying about stuff like that when they know where the door is.



*Guy toys are dirt cheap when compared to the expenses associated with having a family.* Family is why I'm always broke. This year we spent $16,000 on health insurance for our family of seven, another $1,700 for out of pocket healthcare expenses, $13,000 on child care, $4,800 on insurance for four cars, .... . Luckily the states of California and (ironically) Texas and Alabama have picked up most of the college and grad school expenses for our two oldest (total of roughly $200,000 so far -- thanks guys).

I sold my 1968 Oldsmobile 88 convertible and motorcycle for law school money thinking I'd buy nicer ones when I graduated. Silly me -- I'm driving a 13-year-old Volvo station wagon (the closest I get to motorcycles these days is when I walk by the Honda dealer on the way to court).


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## superodalisque (Jan 30, 2013)

bigmac said:


> *Guy toys are dirt cheap when compared to the expenses associated with having a family.* Family is why I'm always broke. This year we spent $16,000 on health insurance for our family of seven, another $1,700 for out of pocket healthcare expenses, $13,000 on child care, $4,800 on insurance for four cars, .... . Luckily the states of California and (ironically) Texas and Alabama have picked up most of the college and grad school expenses for our two oldest (total of roughly $200,000 so far -- thanks guys).
> 
> I sold my 1968 Oldsmobile 88 convertible and motorcycle for law school money thinking I'd buy nicer ones when I graduated. Silly me -- I'm driving a 13-year-old Volvo station wagon (the closest I get to motorcycles these days is when I walk by the Honda dealer on the way to court).



hopefully what you traded your oldsmobile and motorcycle in for was worth it. if it isn't i'm sorry. but evidently,at the time, something was more important than your guy toys and that was exactly what i meant.

most people don't start off with such large families or such large expenses. most people these days are cash strapped. i doubt that when people really fall for each other they have the calculator out--and they shouldn't. life is short. best to get on with living it. life is a struggle. to me love makes that struggle matter. but also the thing to keep in mind is that married men are generally financially better off and live longer. but this really doesn't have much to do with being in the friend zone. 

if someone wants a woman he knows what to do. if he doesn't want to he should just leave her alone. he shouldn't expect her to stop living just because he is interested but not interested enough to do something about it. in fact if he really cared about her and could not afford to live happily with her he would let her go so that she would be able to find someone she could have that with because everyone deserves a chance at that. really loving someone means wanting the best for them. IMO as a woman if someone doesn't really love you he isn't worth wasting your time with. better off looking for THE one.


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## KittyKitten (Jan 30, 2013)

Speaking of being nice, it seems that most guys don't like nice girls either. They love to stay in dramatic relationships. Don't ever be a rebound girl to a guy who just came from a traumatic relationship....they would hop back to the nutjob hussy in no time! I have been there twice including recently. Many guys want a bitchy woman that puts them through misery, make no mistake about it. That hooks them! They don't want a woman that respects them, treats them nicely, makes sweet love to them, no, they want the mean ones.


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 30, 2013)

KittyKitten said:


> Speaking of being nice, it seems that most guys don't like nice girls either. They love to stay in dramatic relationships. Don't ever be a rebound girl to a guy who just came from a traumatic relationship....they would hop back to the nutjob hussy in no time! I have been there twice including recently. Many guys want a bitchy woman that puts them through misery, make no mistake about it. That hooks them! They don't want a woman that respects them, treats them nicely, makes sweet love to them, no, they want the mean ones.



We all have different perspectives, but I strongly disagree. Some guys enjoy a little strife, as well the thrill of having to catch, but I've met very few who enjoy it at the level you are describing.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 30, 2013)

Jon Blaze said:


> We all have different perspectives, but I strongly disagree. Some guys enjoy a little strife, as well the thrill of having to catch, but I've met very few who enjoy it at the level you are describing.



Few, fortunately, but they're there. Think about women who get entangled with abusive boyfriends ... over and over and over. These guys KK is talking about are their male counterparts.


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## bigmac (Jan 30, 2013)

KittyKitten said:


> Speaking of being nice, it seems that most guys don't like nice girls either. They love to stay in dramatic relationships. Don't ever be a rebound girl to a guy who just came from a traumatic relationship....they would hop back to the nutjob hussy in no time! I have been there twice including recently. Many guys want a bitchy woman that puts them through misery, make no mistake about it. That hooks them! They don't want a woman that respects them, treats them nicely, makes sweet love to them, no, they want the mean ones.



Certain amount of truth here. The trick is to find a woman with just the right amount of crazy. Too little and you're bored -- too much and you end up with unwanted police activity.


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## bigmac (Jan 30, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> hopefully what you traded your oldsmobile and motorcycle in for was worth it. if it isn't i'm sorry. but evidently,at the time, something was more important than your guy toys and that was exactly what i meant.
> 
> most people don't start off with such large families or such large expenses. most people these days are cash strapped. i doubt that when people really fall for each other they have the calculator out--and they shouldn't. life is short. best to get on with living it. life is a struggle. to me love makes that struggle matter. but also the thing to keep in mind is that married men are generally financially better off and live longer. but this really doesn't have much to do with being in the friend zone.
> 
> if someone wants a woman he knows what to do. if he doesn't want to he should just leave her alone. he shouldn't expect her to stop living just because he is interested but not interested enough to do something about it. in fact if he really cared about her and could not afford to live happily with her he would let her go so that she would be able to find someone she could have that with because everyone deserves a chance at that. really loving someone means wanting the best for them. IMO as a woman if someone doesn't really love you he isn't worth wasting your time with. better off looking for THE one.



No regrets -- my life's pretty good.

While it would be nice to think that love can conquer all the reality is that without adequate resources men are not going to commit to marriage. This is a historical fact. Marriage and family formation rates plunged in the 1930s and in post soviet Russia.

I'm thinking your post assumes some facts that may not be true:

First, the assumption that if guys just tried a little harder they'd be able to support a family (or even just be able to carry their own weight in a childless couple). Unfortunately the country is full of guys still living in their parents homes. A few years ago these guys may have been jokes. Today their ranks includes many hard working guys who have done everything right.

Second, the idea that if a guy doesn't have the resources to contribute to a family should _"just leave her alone"_ has some ramifications. You seem to think that if the deadbeat just slinks off into the night she'll _"be able to find someone she could have that with because everyone deserves a chance at that." _ The problem is that in today's economy the next guy is no more likely to be economically viable. If current income inequality trends continue ever increasing portions of society will never be able to enjoy stable relationships.

Third, its totally possible that married men live longer not because they got married but because they had the resources to get married (i.e. because richer people live longer).


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## superodalisque (Jan 31, 2013)

bigmac said:


> No regrets -- my life's pretty good.
> 
> While it would be nice to think that love can conquer all the reality is that without adequate resources men are not going to commit to marriage. This is a historical fact. Marriage and family formation rates plunged in the 1930s and in post soviet Russia.
> 
> ...



good try but no cigar 

it's not about guys trying harder it's about whether they want to use the lack of funds as an excuse. lots of poor people manage.

and yes, if a man does not want to marry when poor and a woman wants marriage she should not be pressured to wait on him when he wants to if ever. something is always going to be not quite right. and, you're assuming the economy will always be bad and it wont. 

and no, because married men are more upwardly mobile and men who are married are usually happier, less lonely and have someone to help look after their health and that is why they live longer. mathematically it doesn't make sense to say that most married men are wealthy when they marry since wealthy men are less than 2% of the whole population. who is doing the rest of the marrying? arithmetic

men are also not in as short of a supply as society would have women believe. we can even leave the country for a partner if need be. it's also easier for women to have the same sex partner they couldn't have in the past so no need to find a man to pretend with or to choose a man at all if you're bisexual.

marriage rates did not plunge because of lack of male income but because women had more income and more choices. so women in the past who were forced to marry for financial support had other options. when women have choices they marry less. women now can afford to marry for love. they can have children alone. its not about love conquering anything but the recognition that loving is a part of living and a life without love of some kind is pretty piss poor. hence the concern about being in the friend zone.


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## Webmaster (Jan 31, 2013)

Overall, I think that being told "let's just be friends" is almost always viewed as a snub and rejection. Even the word "just" implies less in this context. Let's just go to a movie (instead of an expensive dinner). Let's just go with the Toyota (instead of the Lexus). And so on.

To most, being told to be "just friends" pretty much means "get lost" or "stay away from me," and not that friendship is really invited. If we make romantic overtures and are rebuffed, it's a rejection, no matter how you look at it.

Which is too bad as there are indeed situations where we truly cherish someone as a friend, but just do not want more. I had a very close friend for years whom I truly cherished, but despite being very clear that I loved her as a friend, she saw that as simply waiting until there was a good time to take it beyond that. When that did not happen, the friend viciously turned against me. That made me sad as it became clear to me that it never was friendship she had sought.

I wish there were better ways of going about the "just friends" thing. It's never "just" friends. Being friends is a great, wonderful thing, knowing that you can hang out with someone, discuss everything, and that there are no romanic motives. It's unfortunate that the "just friends" thing sort of devalues friendship, makes it look like the sort of interaction when you're not deemed good or desirable enough for more. 

You could even argue that being "just friends is a more desirable thing than being romantically involved. But as long as being "just friends" is viewed as a rebuff or second best to being accepted as a romantic partner, a lot of wonderful opportunities to interact with others are lost.


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## superodalisque (Jan 31, 2013)

now i can definitely agree with that. it also implies a healthy respectful honesty necessary between people that won't lead to anger etc... no resentment needed. the problem comes when people want to force a sexual connection even though it's not beneficial to the other person. it makes me wonder how much of it is true sadness at not having that connection with someone or mainly ego. egos don't have much of a place between either real friends or lovers.


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## gangstadawg (Feb 1, 2013)

bigmac said:


> *Guy toys are dirt cheap when compared to the expenses associated with having a family.* Family is why I'm always broke. This year we spent $16,000 on health insurance for our family of seven, another $1,700 for out of pocket healthcare expenses, $13,000 on child care, $4,800 on insurance for four cars, .... . Luckily the states of California and (ironically) Texas and Alabama have picked up most of the college and grad school expenses for our two oldest (total of roughly $200,000 so far -- thanks guys).
> 
> I sold my 1968 Oldsmobile 88 convertible and motorcycle for law school money thinking I'd buy nicer ones when I graduated. Silly me -- I'm driving a 13-year-old Volvo station wagon (the closest I get to motorcycles these days is when I walk by the Honda dealer on the way to court).



and this is why im glad im single and do have any kids. shoot i should but stock in trojan. they have saved me from alot.


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## superodalisque (Feb 1, 2013)

i have a question for both guys and girls. when you were put in the friend zone do you think you were really ready for that relationship? were you feeling alone ad left out because friends had partners? were you basically physically attracted and wanted to see what a sexual relationship would be like? at the time what were your intentions towards the person and was that any different from what they were looking for overall?


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## gangstadawg (Feb 1, 2013)

gangstadawg said:


> and this is why im glad im single and do have any kids. shoot i should but stock in trojan. they have saved me from alot.



yeah i had to quote my self to fix errors in my previous post. damn G19 keyboard.

its supposed to say "and this is why im glad im single and dont have any kids. shoot i should buy stock in trojan. they have saved me from alot."


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## CarlaSixx (Feb 2, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i have a question for both guys and girls. when you were put in the friend zone do you think you were really ready for that relationship? were you feeling alone ad left out because friends had partners? were you basically physically attracted and wanted to see what a sexual relationship would be like? at the time what were your intentions towards the person and was that any different from what they were looking for overall?



I must say there's a difference between being friend zoned and being friends with benefits. 

Sometimes their intention is different. Most of the time they're single and activly looking wen I am looking at them. 

I'm always feeling alone and left out. 

I always think I'm ready for that particular relationship at the time. Even if I get bored with partners easily.


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## superodalisque (Feb 2, 2013)

gangstadawg said:


> yeah i had to quote my self to fix errors in my previous post. damn G19 keyboard.
> 
> its supposed to say "and this is why im glad im single and dont have any kids. shoot i should buy stock in trojan. they have saved me from alot."



well done young man. good not to do what you know you aren't ready for.


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## superodalisque (Feb 2, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> I must say there's a difference between being friend zoned and being friends with benefits.
> 
> Sometimes their intention is different. Most of the time they're single and activly looking wen I am looking at them.
> 
> ...




because you feel alone and left out and you get bored once you're with someone, is it really that you're into someone or you just want to have someone to be like everybody else? if the situation was reversed would you be that happy about it? would it be okay with you if someone wants you only because they felt lonely and left out? is that real?

a lot of young women kinda do this. some experienced guys can feel it if you're basically in it to be like "everybody" else. it doesn't make anyone a bad person. it is just a stage people go through sometimes.

i have a friends who love fat women who say they can often feel like some kind of status symbol to some of the girls they've tried to date. they have Muriel's Wedding syndrome. it's as though the fact that they're with him makes them okay fat somehow. i'm not saying you're doing that but i'm just using this as a jumping off point in the discussion. i think that is something that fat girls have to watch out for even though thin women do that a whole lot too. maybe it's a good idea to be careful and ask ourselves what kinds of needs we really expect these people to fulfill for us.

same with the guys. do they basically just want a sex partner, status symbol to prove the're wanted and someone to take away the loneliness or do they really have feelings for the person? do they fake it, the relationship part, and convince themselves they have feelings or pretend they have feelings for someone just because it's convenient.

sometimes people get put in the friend zone because that's what they really actually are


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## CarlaSixx (Feb 2, 2013)

I don't do the status symbol thing. If I get with someone, it's. Ecause of true attraction to them and not the label they could bring. I do not rush into anything and never will. 

So no, I'm not like anything you've described. 

I'm not a serial dater. I've gone years without genuinely entering a relationship. I'm always lonely, but I don't rush things just to change that. 

It is very unfair of you to assume that I get bored with Partners because I want the status. It's a wrongful assumption. 

I only enter a relationship out of genuine interest. But the Problem is that they stop being interesting once in a relationship. And that bores me and pisses me off. THEY wanted the status. I went in for the genuine.


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## superodalisque (Feb 2, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> I don't do the status symbol thing. If I get with someone, it's. Ecause of true attraction to them and not the label they could bring. I do not rush into anything and never will.
> 
> So no, I'm not like anything you've described.
> 
> ...



sorry if you took it personally. it was not an assumption since i know absolutely nothing about you personally and we've never met. that is why i asked a question. also i wanted to open the subject up. as for guys getting bored, that's pretty par for the course when they're young and because of how society has changed. a lot of people both male and female have that better thing around the corner stuff going on because the net makes the menu so big.


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## gangstadawg (Feb 3, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> well done young man. good not to do what you know you aren't ready for.



i like to call it being sexually responsible.


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## bigmac (Feb 3, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> ...
> 
> I only enter a relationship out of genuine interest.* But the Problem is that they stop being interesting once in a relationship.* And that bores me and pisses me off. THEY wanted the status. I went in for the genuine.




Been there -- I've got a long list relationships that started out promising but quickly went stale (I'm thinking I'm easily bored). It can take quite awhile to meet someone whose interesting enough to hold your attention. Over the years I have discovered that interesting people tend to be more common in interesting places. I doubt I would have met anyone I'd want to spend my life with if I'd stayed in the small Alberta town where I attended high school.


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## sophie lou (Feb 5, 2013)

I got "friend zoned" by one of my chat mates at the beginning of last year. It was a very strange situation. We had been getting on great but we were not what you could call an item. We would just chat some nights and then other nights if the mood was right we would have other kinds of fun. Then all of a sudden he decided we had to end our fun times because he had met someone else at a new years party. I wont lie i was really hurt by the whole situation. We still spoke after but things were never the same. 

I wasn't bothered that he had met someone. To be honest i was pleased for him as i knew that he had been single for quite a while and because of various circumstances it was not like we could ever be a propper couple. I was happy just being friends with benefits even if it was just over the internet. I just couldn't understand why it all had to change i was happy to be his other woman because i thought we had something special. I can still remember how much it hurt! not because he had found someone but because he just dropped me like i was a piece of rubbish. 

Since then i have met some incredible people online and have a girlfriend who i love to bits we live apart because i still live with my parents and they would not approve of our relationship but the future still looks good


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## snuggletiger (Feb 5, 2013)

I always wonder about my one friend, that whenever I suggest getting them a gift for christmas the friend says "I love diamonds" or "I want a ring". I find it an odd gift for a lady to ask a male friend. I don't get it


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## sophie lou (Feb 5, 2013)

I guess that must all depend on the nature of your friendship. Maybe she just thinks your loaded and generous x


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## snuggletiger (Feb 5, 2013)

No I told her I am poor, ie making a house payment and contributing to retirement. plus she makes more then me anyway. She could buy her own ring.


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## sophie lou (Feb 5, 2013)

snuggletiger said:


> No I told her I am poor, ie making a house payment and contributing to retirement. plus she makes more then me anyway. She could buy her own ring.



Does that mean she wants you and you have put her in the friend zone or that you want her and she has put you in the friend zone .


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## sophie lou (Feb 5, 2013)

The guy who put me in the "Friend Zone" broke up with the girl he dumped me there for about six months later. He kept trying to get things back to how they were but by then I couldn't get past the way he just dropped me. I just couldn't let myself feel that way about him again. It might have been a bit of stubborness too. 

Has anyone here brought someone back or been brought back from the "Friend Zone"


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## snuggletiger (Feb 5, 2013)

sophie lou said:


> Does that mean she wants you and you have put her in the friend zone or that you want her and she has put you in the friend zone .



it puzzles me if she's hinting and im just that clueless. Who knows.


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## superodalisque (Feb 5, 2013)

snuggletiger said:


> it puzzles me if she's hinting and im just that clueless. Who knows.



could be something to explore with her if you're interested


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## snuggletiger (Feb 5, 2013)

Felicia
im interested in her but I know I can't afford her not with my income. Its like the old saying "you don't know how poor God made you until you make mortgage payments".


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## ecogeek (Feb 5, 2013)

Stuff that Snuggles, any real woman should accept that you cannot "afford diamonds" and whatever else. If you are paying a mortgage and retirement fund GOOD ON YOU. Don't know where the days went of gifts from the heart or a home made meal being appreciated. Lots of people have unrealistic expectations these days. Too much Jersey Shore or whatever other rubbish is on tv I guess.


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## Yakatori (Feb 5, 2013)

ecogeek said:


> "_...Too much Jersey Shore or whatever other rubbish is on tv I guess._"


I think it's too many folks who won't take the risk of being real with each-other. It will always be easier & safer to project a self-constructed set of emotions and motivations onto another person and react accordingly to that than to actually engage with them.

Consider *snuggletiger*'s example: He could say to her, "I love you so much, I want to give you everything I have, my entire soul; but, unfortunately, that's all I have to give..." But-then, what if she calls his bluff? 

Similarly, she could say, "I want to know how you really feel about me; because I don't want to leave, but I'm afraid to invest any more without a deeper commitment from you." Of course, then, he might say "I don't know...


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## ecogeek (Feb 5, 2013)

I was speaking more of her saying she wants diamonds from him etc. However, I do complete agree with that. Seems the lady has something more that she wants to say but only really hint drops during gift giving seasons.


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## superodalisque (Feb 6, 2013)

ecogeek said:


> Stuff that Snuggles, any real woman should accept that you cannot "afford diamonds" and whatever else. If you are paying a mortgage and retirement fund GOOD ON YOU. Don't know where the days went of gifts from the heart or a home made meal being appreciated. Lots of people have unrealistic expectations these days. Too much Jersey Shore or whatever other rubbish is on tv I guess.



i agree. if she is really interested she won't actually care about the diamonds. sounds more like she as dropping hints, unless you do get the feeling she is very materalistic.


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## noseovertail (Feb 6, 2013)

that was a really interesting youtube video. i would have never thought to relate it to the scarcity principle.

i don't know what everyone else's experiences are..but i find that, as i get older, i am much more communicative about my feelings and am comfortable with just outright asking the other person about their feelings as well if i am unsure (and if i care to know).

in my early 20's, however, i would have died before being that forward haha.

but really-- there are worse places to be than 'the friend zone' if it's someone you enjoy spending time with and want to see happy either way.


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## ecogeek (Feb 6, 2013)

noseovertail said:


> but really-- there are worse places to be than 'the friend zone' if it's someone you enjoy spending time with and want to see happy either way.



Could not agree more.


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## sophie lou (Feb 6, 2013)

snuggletiger said:


> Felicia
> im interested in her but I know I can't afford her not with my income. Its like the old saying "you don't know how poor God made you until you make mortgage payments".



I know this may sound fanciful but its what someone has in their heart for you that matters not what they have in their wallet. Its nice to be showered with expensive gifts but they mean nothing if the person buying them doesn't really have true feelings for you. 

I know i would cherish a the gift of a rose from someone who really cares for me over something lavish from someone who doesn't. Once in a blue moon you might be lucky enough to find someone who does shower you with gifts and affection but failing that its what is in the heart that matters


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## Tad (Feb 6, 2013)

snuggletiger said:


> Felicia
> im interested in her but I know I can't afford her not with my income. Its like the old saying "you don't know how poor God made you until you make mortgage payments".



See now, you are making a decision for her by saying this. You are saying that she wouldn't make sacrifices to be with you, and that she doesn't have and couldn't make enough income that, when living with a person who owns a house, could make things better for both of you.

I do get, from what you've posted elsewhere, that you prefer very clear statements of what a woman wants. But look at it from the other perspective--for someone to state clearly what they want, if they don't know the answer, is a huge risk. To then get turned down hurts a lot more than never really asking. And you should understand that, as it sounds like this is exactly what you are doing with her.

Now, obviously you know her and I don't, so odds are good that you have perfectly valid reasons for reasoning as you have....but maybe you should also consider that by demanding that she be the one to make clear statements and by assuming what she is and isn't willing to do, there is a possibility that you are cutting off a lot of possibilities.


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## StickMan (Feb 6, 2013)

Really, "friendzoning" is just another way of saying that two people's expectations going into a relationship are unequal. One wants sex/a romantic relationship/both, the other wants friendship. (And maybe sex, depending on the person)

I can't speak from the female perspective (not being female myself) but the once you're in the friendzone, the only way out is to get some self-awareness. You are not owed a girlfriend. (Or a boyfriend. Or _friends_, for that matter.) They aren't handed out like participation ribbons at the science fair; you've got to put in the time while understanding that there is no equivalent exchange for love. You can't make someone love you, only hope that they feel for you what you feel for them. (One should hope that this is true of all relationships, regardless of whether they're platonic, romantic, or purely sexual.)


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## snuggletiger (Feb 6, 2013)

Tad said:


> See now, you are making a decision for her by saying this. You are saying that she wouldn't make sacrifices to be with you, and that she doesn't have and couldn't make enough income that, when living with a person who owns a house, could make things better for both of you.
> 
> I do get, from what you've posted elsewhere, that you prefer very clear statements of what a woman wants. But look at it from the other perspective--for someone to state clearly what they want, if they don't know the answer, is a huge risk. To then get turned down hurts a lot more than never really asking. And you should understand that, as it sounds like this is exactly what you are doing with her.
> 
> Now, obviously you know her and I don't, so odds are good that you have perfectly valid reasons for reasoning as you have....but maybe you should also consider that by demanding that she be the one to make clear statements and by assuming what she is and isn't willing to do, there is a possibility that you are cutting off a lot of possibilities.



Very true, and as I am finding in this adventure of 2013 Im not exactly the easiest person to talk to. That my relience on being the funniest one in the room does put people ill at ease. I use/d comedy as a way to not feel so nervous, I guess because I have always been a shy person and sort of intimidated in unfamilar surroundings. So as a result I didn't pick up on the subtle hints that courting entails. And Im not sure where one relearns those things. Maybe the friend zone is the spot to be while I regroup. Sometimes I feel like an old dog trying to learn a new trick when the old trick seems easier to use. And maybe in retrospect it wasn't so much the women that confused me, maybe I confused them. Where do you get a do over?


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## Tad (Feb 6, 2013)

How do you get a do-over? You ask.

I forget who said it, but I find it more true than not: "The people who mind don't count, and the people who count don't mind." 

Or to put it another way, the people who care enough to pay attention probably already have that pretty much figured out. AND, if you let them know that you want to try to do things differently, you'll probably get a friendly smack up the backside of the head as they say "about time!" .....and then get some good support. 

All it costs is some pride (to say you went down the wrong path), which is sometimes the most precious currency, but knowing when to stop hoarding it and spend it is probably one of the most valuable things we can learn. It is amazing how often pride can stand in the way of happiness.


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## EMH1701 (Feb 6, 2013)

Webmaster said:


> To most, being told to be "just friends" pretty much means "get lost" or "stay away from me," and not that friendship is really invited. If we make romantic overtures and are rebuffed, it's a rejection, no matter how you look at it.



It depends on the situation. I had a guy in WoW hit on me and I later found out he was married with kids. He kept hitting on me. I told him I'm not going to date a guy who's married with kids, no matter how much I like him as a friend. It's not like they had a pending divorce, either. Of course, most WoW guys will hit on any girl, but he'd admitted to being a FA and his wife was skinny.


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## superodalisque (Feb 6, 2013)

Tad said:


> See now, you are making a decision for her by saying this. You are saying that she wouldn't make sacrifices to be with you, and that she doesn't have and couldn't make enough income that, when living with a person who owns a house, could make things better for both of you.
> 
> I do get, from what you've posted elsewhere, that you prefer very clear statements of what a woman wants. But look at it from the other perspective--for someone to state clearly what they want, if they don't know the answer, is a huge risk. To then get turned down hurts a lot more than never really asking. And you should understand that, as it sounds like this is exactly what you are doing with her.
> 
> Now, obviously you know her and I don't, so odds are good that you have perfectly valid reasons for reasoning as you have....but maybe you should also consider that by demanding that she be the one to make clear statements and by assuming what she is and isn't willing to do, there is a possibility that you are cutting off a lot of possibilities.



what Tad said


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## Grizzlybear (Feb 6, 2013)

Wow, this thread has gotten much larger than I expected when I first started it.

So here's my conclusion: I'll be 33 at the end of this month, and I've stopped actively looking for a partner. I can be friends with whomever I choose, and that's good enough for me for now. Should a woman show an interest, I'm not against exploring the opportunity, but I'm not going to look for love for now. I've got too much on my plate as it is. Now, if you'll kindly excuse me Ladies and Gentlemen...


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## BarterGal (Feb 10, 2013)

I'll keep the thread alive lol. 

I am 44 now, and decided against the friend zone moving ahead. I have had years of disappointment from many guys that I thought were getting out of friend zone, to actually go the opposite, "the no friend at all zone" because they got married to ladies who didn't like me even as a friend. 

Right now, I'm completely free of any male friends and like it! I only date and dump. Kinda mean, but I don't have a lot of time to waste here.


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## superodalisque (Feb 10, 2013)

Grizzlybear said:


> Wow, this thread has gotten much larger than I expected when I first started it.
> 
> So here's my conclusion: I'll be 33 at the end of this month, and I've stopped actively looking for a partner. I can be friends with whomever I choose, and that's good enough for me for now. Should a woman show an interest, I'm not against exploring the opportunity, but I'm not going to look for love for now. I've got too much on my plate as it is. Now, if you'll kindly excuse me Ladies and Gentlemen...



IMO it's probably best not to look for love anyway. the best things just seem to happen.


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## fat hiker (Feb 10, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> IMO it's probably best not to look for love anyway. the best things just seem to happen.



When you're not looking for love is exactly when the best things happen, in my experience.


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## sophie lou (Feb 18, 2013)

It must feel awful to have put someone you have feelings for in the Friend Zone. Even more so when it is for someone else who turns out not to be what you thought they were. But worst of all when you try and bring them back to being more than just friends and they don't want to know anymore. I think sometimes we can trample on peoples feelings without actually knowing what we are doing. Sometimes when people say Yeah its fine maybe they just don't want to hurt the other person by saying well no actually it's ripping out my heart. 

Some people enter our lives for the long journey and others just pass through but the ones that are special you need to grab hold of and make the most of every moment you can


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## SerenityValkyrie (Feb 18, 2013)

For 23 years, the "friend zone" thing has never crossed my mind. The reason why is probably because I was a tomboy growing up and I wasn't the type of girl who hovered over some guy to like or even love me. If I had a crush on a guy, I tell him and if he replies no than move on. I use to know a guy who once told me, "Women have the advantage, doesn't matter what you look like." Which I believe to an extent. It's inevitable that everyone has preferences, it's the fact of life. It's rare for someone to put it aside and try something new, but it's already in their mindset that they would rather be with someone who fits into their category. Although that doesn't mean you should give up on those type of people.

As of now when it comes to dating, I give all types of men a chance to date me. However, I will only do that if they verbally say that they're into me. I don't like beating around the bush type of guys, if you like someone tell them because you may never know. If they reject you it's ok, that means you have a higher chance of finding someone better. Don't let the "friend zone" affect you, be yourself and if women/men don't see you for who you are that's their loss.


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## reuben6380 (Feb 18, 2013)

I feel allot of people really over-think matters of the heart, ultimately leading to its undoing. Its been my experience that people that are hard to please will *never* be pleased and if your waiting for people to please you...your doing it wrong.


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## snuggletiger (Feb 19, 2013)

Lately I find I have this great ability to date, cause the woman to disappear, then reappear like a boomerang, to where they reapproach asking questions like "hows your health been in 2 years since I last saw you?" which makes me wonder if Im in a dead pool or there's a lot of wishful thinking I could suffer from bad fortunes. But so far Im solid at friend making, horrible at partner making


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## bigmac (Feb 19, 2013)

reuben6380 said:


> *I feel allot of people really over-think matters of the heart*, ultimately leading to its undoing. Its been my experience that people that are hard to please will *never* be pleased and if your waiting for people to please you...your doing it wrong.




Yes, I believe you're right about that. When I was lots younger I solved this problem by hanging out at heavy metal and punk clubs. These places were so loud you couldn't actually talk so you never got bogged down in those god awful _where is this relationship going_ talks.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Jun 12, 2013)

I meant to post to this thread some time ago Recently, I found myself writing this story to a friend and am copying it verbatim here.


Years ago, even before I met Mrs Ho Ho, a new (but highly placed) secretary, meeting me for the first time, said to my (at that time) hippy-ish face "You look rather sad. Is there anything I can do?" From this inauspicious beginning, our friendship flourished. We both had issues in our lives and let down our hair regularly. When major tragedies struck, we were the first to call each other. 

Over time (not that much time) we both realized that our friendship could easily turn into an affair. We were both married; both marriages needed improvement, but neither of us cared to risk what we had for the fun of a one-night-stand. We knew that we would not leave our current spouses to be with each other. We talked it all over one day - a long and rather anguished conversation - and decided that our friendship was more important to us than anything we could achieve without it. So we put each other, and ourselves, into that '*Just Friends'* category. 

What a monumental decision that was! I think it is well that we have to make such decisions without the full weight of future history on our shoulders!

Years later, I left the company (kicked out for my leftist position) and eventually found a job in Massachusetts (long story here). My then-wife (now my ex-wife) declined to join me, or even to take the first steps to prepare for the re-integration of our family. (She was quite happy to receive my monthly checks though.) This went on for about a year, when my old friend decided to pay me a visit. We were both still married so she decided to bring what was, in effect, a chaperone. She asked around and (the future Mrs Ho Ho) , my old workmate and friend, decided to come too.

I wasn't prepared for that. I had written much in my journalling that I wanted to share with my friend. I had a friendly, but circumspect, relationship with (FMHH). But what could I do? I couldn't tell (FMHH) to put her fingers in her ears or retreat to the bedroom, so she stayed and got the full dose of my angst. (Later, she told me that this was the thing that made me into a whole person, not just the friend and workmate she had known before.)

They stayed for nearly a week. After they left I mulled over all the conversation we had, all the hugs we had shared, and convinced myself that I was falling in love with (FMHH). How horrible! She was 20 years my junior and we had worked together as well, so there was a sort-of incest taboo hanging over us. I knew that she expected to return and I couldn't have her walking into a welter of unresolved emotion where she was expecting only to find friendship. I resolved to call her by the end of the week and tell her what was going on with me - and to stay away. Run fast, little girl!

On the night I had resolved to call her, I found a letter in my mailbox - from her! It was a long handwritten letter, starting out sort of bread-and-butteriish but soon turning to her own feelings about that trip and that week and it turned out they were pretty similar to my own.

I couldn't get to the phone fast enough. We talked for hours. Over that weekend we talked hours more and somewhere during those conversations, we knew that we had become a couple.

..............................................

Time passes. It is now May 25, 1990, our wedding day. We are neither of us member of a church. We asked Judge Alan Oleisky if he would do the honors in his chambers. He was agreeable, so we met there, she, I, her mom and sister (her dad had died a few months before) but no one from my side of the family. (Heartache there.) I asked (my old friend) to be my 'best man'. Appropriate and much in keeping with the traditional role. I had a tee shirt made for her to wear at the ceremony which said "Sometimes the Best Man is a Woman".

Dear Angel! How we both miss her! Over the years, her issues with her husband were resolved. The two of them liked to tour the country on his motorcycle. He was killed in a road accident in Oregon.My friend was badly injured, but recovered. She did eventually find someone else. They married and shortly afterward, discovered that they both had cancer. He recovered; she did not.. She died just a few years ago.

We are not religious people but if (to our great surprise) we find there is a heaven after all, I hope that my friend, our guardian angel in life, is there to greet us with a big hug.

Hmmm! I seem to have created a post, right here in front of my eyes. What do you think if it?


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jun 12, 2013)

I think it is wise, compassionate, and enlightening. :bow:


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## Ho Ho Tai (Jul 6, 2013)

I knew but had forgotten about this old song (written in 1929) until I heard it the other day. Seems like the story of so many on these boards.

from Wiki:
"Can't We Be Friends" was written in 1929 by Paul James with lyrics by Kay Swift. The song was introduced by Libby Holman for the Broadway musical The Little Show. Since its initial performance, the song has been recognized as a classic jazz standard. "



LINDA RONSTADT LYRICS

"Can't We Be Friends"

I thought I found the man of my dreams
Now it seems
This is how the story ends
He's going to turn me down
And say "can't we be friends"

I thought for once it couldn't go wrong
Not for long
I can see the way this ends
He's going to turn me down
And say "can't we be friends"

Never again
Through with love
Through with men
They play their game without shame
And who's to blame

I thought I found a man I could trust
What a bust
This is how the story ends
He's going to turn me down
And say "can't we be friends"

Why should I care
Though he gave me the air
And why should I cry
Even sigh
Or wonder why

I thought for once it couldn't go wrong
Not for long
I can see the way this ends
He's going to turn me down
And say "can't we be
can't we be
can't we be
can't we be
can't we be
can't we be friends"


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## tankyguy (Jul 6, 2013)

I think I've been on both the giving and receiving end of the Friend Zone.

In high school there was a cute girl in our little clique of friends. She was way nicer to me than any other of our friends; always seeking me out alone, always offering me snacks and doing little favors I didn't see her doing for others. I'd catch her smiling at me, etc. She outright said more than a couple times she was into 'big teddy bear guys'. It took me a long time to put 2+2 together, I wasn't even really sure, and I didn't have the confidence to make a move. :doh:
So, I think perhaps from her perspective, I was Friend-Zoning her.


In my mid 20's I started playing with a group of online gamer friends. There was a really great gender ratio and a lot of them were couples and knew each other IRL. Everyone was always flirty and playful so I thought nothing when one of the women started flirting with me. We formed a fast friendship and began chatting outside of the game over IM and Skype calls. We found out we were both single, felt there was some mutual chemistry and exchanged pictures. We flirted a more intensely over the next while. One day I mentioned my birthday was coming up. She asked how old I was going to be. I said I was 26. She said 'Oh. I'm 34' with a definitely disappointed tone. I asked her if that changed anything, because for me it didn't. She said it made her uncomfortable and we should probably just be friends.
I harbored a crush on her for a long time afterwards, up until she got involved with another guy from the group and later they were engaged.

So yeah, the Friend Zone sucks.


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## op user (Jul 7, 2013)

I was thinking about that the other day. Back in my teens and 20's I had a lot of girl telling me they wanted to be friends with me - because I was very nice guy and stuff. Years later I understood that they did so because most of them needed to have a support group to help them with chores they did not enjoy doing or when they needed a ride etc. Obviously I refused such a role of being the guy on call and hopping to change her mind. 

The issue was mainly with those ladies I was finding attractive. With a lady not attractive it is not a problem to be friends. Few years down the line, I come to think that it would have been better if I had go along and accepted to be friends. And then when I met a friend of hers, that I fancied, I would ask her to make the connection and help me out. Obviously she would refuse but I could point out to her how insincere she was!

Not sure if it is relevant or if it makes sense.


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