# Buzzfeed article 'My Boyfriend Loves Fat Women'



## youareneverready (Feb 24, 2015)

Apologies if this has already been posted (couldn't see it anywhere).

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kristinchirico/my-boyfriend-loves-fat-women

Thoughts/opinions?


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## Tad (Feb 24, 2015)

Wow, I suspect my wife would empathize with a lot of that article. I think dating an FA can be a topsy-turvy experience for a lot of people, being torn between approval of your partner and approval of almost everyone else, etc. I hope some partners of FA will read it and respond.


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## loopytheone (Feb 24, 2015)

Very interesting, I have to say. I'm kinda in an odd position that I empathise with both of them personally. I've been the big girl feeling like I'm not worth anyone, feeling like I've cheated when I'm with someone and feeling jaded towards my partners because they like my size. But I've also been the one telling somebody much bigger than me that they look amazing and gorgeous whilst complaining about my own size.

It all gets into a big confused muddle of feelings if you let it. That's why I value honesty and openness so much. The guy in that article sounds like a keeper to me.


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## b01 (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm an FA and it is always hard to read articles like that because it is sad and heartbreaking, even when they try to make it seem like a happy ending. She found a guy that was her type and liked her, but still found a problem with her situation. Ultimately she was trying to lose weight for society and not for her own self.

It really hurts being a man that simply wants to be with a woman that he is attracted to, but he has to deal with the fact that she may never except herself.

I also thought it was messed up how she thought it was cool to compare him to actors she thought were attractive, but when he did it, he was in the wrong. :doh:


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## BigCutieClementine (Feb 25, 2015)

I liked this article a lot. It was just really really honest and I think it did an amazing job at illustrating what it's like to be desired as a fat woman. 

Honestly, when I became a web model I remember one of my girlfriends asking WHO was buying my stuff and I explained to her that in fact some men like fat women. She WHISPERED (like it was a dirty secret) "oooh... like they're INTO that kind of thing???" 

So many men like to believe that it's us women who just aren't accepting ourselves or can't be happy with someone who just loves our body. But the fact is that we are told every day by society that IF someone ever DOES like our body it's because they are fetishizing it. And ya know what? A lot of the guys that like our bodies ARE fetishizing them. So we go through this roller coaster ride of emotions AND ALL WE WANT IS TO BE LOVED FOR WHO WE ARE AND NOT HOW WE LOOK!!! 

It's an interesting ride to be on, I can tell you that. And I think that this article is just a really great expression of that. It's not as easy as "I love your body, why can't you love it?" or "if I lose weight will he still think I'm attractive?". It's complicated and you have to work through years of shit that society has taught you. 

anyway, I like the article. I like that it didn't simplify anything. THanks for sharing!


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## The Orange Mage (Feb 25, 2015)

*scans through article*

*gets near end*

*author is revealed to be a size 18*

*throws hands up and walks out*


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## b01 (Feb 25, 2015)

> So many men like to believe that it's us women who just aren't accepting ourselves or can't be happy with someone who just loves our body. But the fact is that we are told every day by society that IF someone ever DOES like our body it's because they are fetishizing it. And ya know what? A lot of the guys that like our bodies ARE fetishizing them. So we go through this roller coaster ride of emotions AND ALL WE WANT IS TO BE LOVED FOR WHO WE ARE AND NOT HOW WE LOOK!!!



I felt like that was a shot at us men. I should say that I like women that are plus-size. Society may shun me for it. I stand up for myself and ignore societies popular opinion and continue to love my kind of women. Might I suggest you give society the finger when it starts telling you what you should look like.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you lump us men together and say that we are turning BBW image into a fetish. You should bring it up in a new thread. I personally believe that my preferred choice in women is not a fetish. Though I'm sure that was not the kind of thing you were referring to. But I'd like to know what you are taking about so please do start a thread about that, if you feel up can.

Please don't get upset with me because I didn't care too much for the article, just expressing my opinion.


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## BigCutie Kelly (Feb 25, 2015)

Not really a fan of how she threw that fatter woman at the bar under the bus to (what, feed her ego, confirm her BF's preferences?) which just exposed how narrow her view of size acceptance is.


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## BigCutieClementine (Feb 25, 2015)

The Orange Mage said:


> *scans through article*
> 
> *gets near end*
> 
> ...



lolol I thought the exact same thing


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## BigCutieClementine (Feb 25, 2015)

BigCutie Kelly said:


> Not really a fan of how she threw that fatter woman at the bar under the bus to (what, feed her ego, confirm her BF's preferences?) which just exposed how narrow her view of size acceptance is.



she definitely has a very narrow view of size acceptance... but isn't that kind of the standard? I think she uses her judgements to illustrate just how fucked up her thoughts about fat are. 

I've also read several other articles by the woman who wrote this, and she's definitely working through a lot of pre-conditioned bullshit about fat bodies. Which doesn't make it right to "throw them under the bus", but I DO like that she shares it with the world because I think it's important to see the process people go through to shake off all those ideals and norms. 

Do I even make sense when I talk? I make sense in my head!


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## Tad (Feb 25, 2015)

BigCutieClementine said:


> she definitely has a very narrow view of size acceptance... but isn't that kind of the standard?



Yah, I think a lot of people have zero awareness of size acceptance, so they have to go about re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. Unfortunately, like we saw with the girl at the bar, some stop inventing when they adjust their world view enough to somewhat accept people like themselves, and don't carry on to try and shed fat-prejudice in general.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 25, 2015)

BigCutieClementine said:


> AND ALL WE WANT IS TO BE LOVED FOR WHO WE ARE AND NOT HOW WE LOOK!!!



I sympathize with that desire, but I am not optimistic about the odds of your experiencing it, for two reasons:

(1) We humans tend to be self-centered (not as much as cats, but we're working on it). Consequently, it's much more likely that the fella is thinking about what you can do for him (sex, emotional support, financial support, etc.) than what he can do for you. If he's a genuinely nice guy, this may take the form of "What can I do for Clemmie to make her happy so that she will..." Nevertheless, the focus is unlikely, at least at first, to be on who you are, but rather than on what you represent to him.

(2) He can't love you for who you are, because he doesn't know who you are. Or perhaps I should say, he doesn't know who _you_ think you are. You don't really have a _self_ so much as a self-image you've built up over a lifetime: the article brings this out very clearly. This image is in your head; nobody else can access it. At the same time, _he_ (and everyone else you know) is building up _their_ images of _you_, which you can't access. And this means he will love you, not for who you are, but for who he thinks you are (which will have a lot to do with his needs, not so much with yours: see 1.)

If this makes it appear that being in a relationship is like trying to pet a constantly moving black cat in a totally dark room, then I have made my point. My only other point is that the cat in question is Schroedinger's, and so you never know from one moment to the next whether your romance is alive or dead; actually, it's both.  But it wouldn't be any fun if it weren't a challenge, would it?


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## mermaid8 (Feb 25, 2015)

I see both sides of this issue: I understand how frustrating it can be for a man to love a woman who has trouble accepting her looks but what the guy doesn't understand is reprogramming your brain to think differently doesn't happen overnight or even after a few years it's a continual process everyday. 

My ex bf hated that I had body image issues and always made me feel that I had to hide my insecurities because he was ashamed that I felt that way. My wish is that people even women would give people the permission to feel their feelings. Just because I feel insecure about my looks doesn't mean I don't believe you love me and my personality. It's my hang-up please don't make me feel that my insecurities are hurting you too.


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## BigCutieClementine (Feb 25, 2015)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I sympathize with that desire, but I am not optimistic about the odds of your experiencing it, for two reasons:
> 
> (1) We humans tend to be self-centered (not as much as cats, but we're working on it). Consequently, it's much more likely that the fella is thinking about what you can do for him (sex, emotional support, financial support, etc.) than what he can do for you. If he's a genuinely nice guy, this may take the form of "What can I do for Clemmie to make her happy so that she will..." Nevertheless, the focus is unlikely, at least at first, to be on who you are, but rather than on what you represent to him.
> 
> ...



AHHHHHH I actually LOVE this perspective. You are absolutely right that we are constantly working in perceptions based on our own realities. 

The beautiful (and terrifying) thing about relationships is that we have someone we trust to share those realities with. 

I guess that was really my point in saying that I liked the article. It was honest and true to her reality. And I think she did a pretty great job of explaining how she knows her reality may also be a bit fucked


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## dreistein (Feb 26, 2015)

OMG, this article is about a woman who has so much, if not everything one needs to be happy.

BUT - she just makes things complicated, because she wants it to be. 

Many women are like this, instead of just being relaxed and enjoy all the good things in life. 
Why? I will never understand this. 
She makes it almost impossible for her loved one, to get through to her.

1. She wants to be loved for who and what she is, not because of her looks and her weight.
2. Men are attracted by good looks. This has always been the case. Of course, each guy has his preferneces. Being an FA, i do not like to apologize to a big beauty for being attracted to her. 
Why should I?
Still, some women do question guys: why me? Strange thing. 

Forget this, just go ahead and enjoy. Dont make things too complicated. 

And dont start to slim down to the bones ;-))

Unfortunaltely


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## steve-aka (Feb 26, 2015)

dreistein said:


> OMG, this article is about a woman who has so much, if not everything one needs to be happy.
> 
> BUT - she just makes things complicated, because she wants it to be.
> 
> ...



Although I agree with what you're saying I think you're being a bit one-sided here. Just as some women may seem to make things too complicated, many men make things overly simplified by basically ignoring the wants and needs of the women they're attracted to and concentrate only on bedding them. This way of thinking contributes to the stereotype that men are only interested in sex and don't care much about anything else. While some women may benefit from "just being relaxed" about the issues of sex and sexuality, there are just as many men who would benefit from using their big heads every once in a while instead of always using their little heads.

The bottom line for me is that I'm VERY attracted to fat women (feelings I've had since about 5 years of age) but to have any sort of long-lasting relationship I also need to be able to share similar experiences, likes, and desires with my partner in order to have anything of interest beyond the bedroom. Sex is pretty goddamn awesome, but if all you have in a relationship is sex then it gets boring really quickly.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 26, 2015)

steve-aka said:


> Sex is pretty goddamn awesome, but if all you have in a relationship is sex then it gets boring really quickly.



It also gets difficult to distinguish from masturbation.


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## Xyantha Reborn (Feb 26, 2015)

I read the article and my immediate thoughts were:

I like the FA positive 'they are not all freaks' attitude. On the other hand, I've been in a very low place and felt inadequate so I get where she is coming from, but there were some parts that made me highly uncomfortable. The subtext I got was that she feels unworthy - she was so lucky to get him, that she 'won' (it does seem like he is a keeper!). What I mean is, it was written in such a way that it reminded me of old school articles when women matter of factly said their place was in the kitchen. 

It's great that she has found some confidence, but she doesn't challenge other people's right to treat her that way. It can't just be up to the other partner to change perceptions. Like when she mentioned him asking A MUTUAL FRIEND 'doesn't she look great?' And they clammed up - my husband would have had zero tolerance for that behaviour, and so would I. That 'mutual friend' would have become a 'mutual ex-friend.' 

That being said, when I had my BHM husband read the article and chatted, his immediate thoughts were:


No one insults my baby. If I asked if they thought you look good and they did that they wouldn't be our friends anymore.
 I agree on some points. Remember that I lost weight in order to get the confidence to ask girls out. It isn't about weight, it's about confidence, but sometimes that is what helps us get the nerve up 
Yes, she obviously thinks her weight deligitimizes her in some ways, and I can agree to some extent; I don't think that I would have gotten hired at my current job if I was the weight I am now. People don't take me as seriously when I get angry especially. 
Yeah, sometimes I feel fat, but for me the war is over - I don't want anyone else to look at me sexually so who cares. 
Yes, I can tell when I look particularly fat because you bite your lip and your hands are all over me...but the fact is that I'm married - you like it. Besides, this is how my body WANTS to be. In order for me to change it, I would become a terrible person to be around.


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## SSBHM (Mar 4, 2015)

I read the article and several of the posts following it. Some excellent insights but I wanted to add one more of my own. :bow:

It is amazing that many of us actually try to deny who we are or want to be. In my case, I've always wanted to be very fat. I have been plump or chubby or fat, but always thought it was bad to be so. :doh:

Love thyself comes to mind, but also find your inner-most truth is another expression that applies. Yet, another expression: be strong, be bold, and above all be confident. 

Strength of character, conviction, and belief is something that our society seems to have a very big problem with. Perhaps it's everyone's biggest challenge, to temper conviction with acceptance and the sensibility of moderation, but one that I hope we all pursue and understand the importance of, to realize happiness, fulfillment, and realization of what we can be. 

Not sure if I was clear enough or explained why I think this post is different from others, I just hope that it is said in a different way that perhaps adds to the overall ideas expressed. 

Great post topic! :happy:


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## superodalisque (Mar 20, 2015)

I feel so sorry for her. she has absolutely no personal identity. she keeps talking about what other people like and what a guy wants in her. she hasn't taken the time to find out what SHE actually wants at all. she probably doesn't even know. she got bigger. he liked it. but, does she like it?

her first mistake was asking the guy "what" he liked. she is not a what but a who. and IMO you should never ask a guy about whether he basically likes your body. if he is talking to you and asking you out like he's interested that can be assumed. it also attracts selfish users and people with entitled minds.

one day I hope she wakes up. she isn't unusual though. this is how society teaches women to think. it's very hard to think/work ourselves out of it and stop acting like a porn choice instead of a whole person.


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## jakub (Mar 21, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> this is how society teaches women to think. it's very hard to think/work ourselves out of it and stop acting like a porn choice instead of a whole person.



I believe society teaches (this is huuuge mental shortcut) everyone to not think for themselves. Assumption that society want this from women only is probably wrong.


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## bigmac (Mar 21, 2015)

The Orange Mage said:


> *scans through article*
> 
> *gets near end*
> 
> ...



She may actually be bigger than you think (can't confirm without a photo). With ever increasing vanity sizing a size 18 from a more upscale shop is often just as large (or even larger) than a size 24 from Target.


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## bigmac (Mar 21, 2015)

Tad said:


> Wow, I suspect my wife would empathize with a lot of that article. I think dating an FA can be a topsy-turvy experience for a lot of people, *being torn between approval of your partner and approval of almost everyone else*, etc. I hope some partners of FA will read it and respond.




Yes! My ex hated being a BBW. She hid under baggy clothes and big jackets (easy to do in Alberta). Her life fell apart due primarily to drug use. However I believe the fact she never liked herself played a part (as did an abusive childhood).


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## bigmac (Mar 21, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> I feel so sorry for her. she has absolutely no personal identity. she keeps talking about what other people like and what a guy wants in her. she hasn't taken the time to find out what SHE actually wants at all. she probably doesn't even know. she got bigger. he liked it. but, does she like it?
> 
> her first mistake was asking the guy "what" he liked. she is not a what but a who. and IMO you should never ask a guy about whether he basically likes your body. if he is talking to you and asking you out like he's interested that can be assumed. it also attracts selfish users and people with entitled minds.
> 
> one day I hope she wakes up. she isn't unusual though. this is how society teaches women to think. it's very hard to think/work ourselves out of it and stop acting like a porn choice instead of a whole person.



GMAFB! This young lady is perfectly normal. She has plenty of personal identity. She's a young lady doing some intelligent introspection. 

And how the hell did you tie this article to porn?


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## youareneverready (Mar 21, 2015)

I think where low self-esteem is concerned there's an element of that Groucho Marx quote about not wanting to be part of any club that would have you as a member. If you think there's something 'wrong' with you then anyone who likes you despite that, or especially inclusive of (or even because of) that therefore must be 'wrong' as well. That old line about 'no one will love you until you learn to love yourself' is more or less entirely crap, but if you love yourself then it becomes easier to accept love from others because you are in a state of agreement with them. You both share the belif that you are loveable and worth that love. 

When we cultivate a view of the world, and of ourselves, it can be very difficult to change that, and we more often than not will do anything (subconsciously) to protect it. After all, it's our reality. Anything that appears to contradict that is then usually ignored, challenged or disregarded because it's scary to have the things you think you know turned on their head, especially when they're well-established and sometimes even ingrained into society (as is the case with the writer's view of her weight). That's not to say, however, that our realities can't change, and quite often they're required to if we want to move forward, like paradigm shifts in the world of science.


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## superodalisque (Mar 21, 2015)

jakub said:


> I believe society teaches (this is huuuge mental shortcut) everyone to not think for themselves. Assumption that society want this from women only is probably wrong.


 
i was talking about the writer in particular


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## superodalisque (Mar 21, 2015)

bigmac said:


> GMAFB! This young lady is perfectly normal. She has plenty of personal identity. She's a young lady doing some intelligent introspection.
> 
> And how the hell did you tie this article to porn?


 
nah she is thinking about herself through him. no doubt she is working it out. but she isn't even worried about how she feels but more about how she makes him feel or how he feels about her. how she feels should be her own issue. she can't do that to please anyone. if she does that wouldn't even be self esteem.

i have the feeling if she did have a sense of herself she probably wouldn't be with him because he really isn't the nice guy he pretends to be. he even thinks her self esteem is all about him and how comfortable she makes him feel. he's laying a guilt trip on her to get her to behave in ways he approves of in the world instead of waiting for her to work through it herself for real. someone who actually cares about you wouldn't do that. it's classic gamesmanship and control he's dealing in.

also she is getting what she thinks is self esteem through the fact he is attracted to her. that is unhealthy. if it was really about her self esteem she wouldn't have to be talking about him at all.


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## superodalisque (Mar 21, 2015)

youareneverready said:


> I think where low self-esteem is concerned there's an element of that Groucho Marx quote about not wanting to be part of any club that would have you as a member. If you think there's something 'wrong' with you then anyone who likes you despite that, or especially inclusive of (or even because of) that therefore must be 'wrong' as well. That old line about 'no one will love you until you learn to love yourself' is more or less entirely crap, but if you love yourself then it becomes easier to accept love from others because you are in a state of agreement with them. You both share the belif that you are loveable and worth that love.
> 
> When we cultivate a view of the world, and of ourselves, it can be very difficult to change that, and we more often than not will do anything (subconsciously) to protect it. After all, it's our reality. Anything that appears to contradict that is then usually ignored, challenged or disregarded because it's scary to have the things you think you know turned on their head, especially when they're well-established and sometimes even ingrained into society (as is the case with the writer's view of her weight). That's not to say, however, that our realities can't change, and quite often they're required to if we want to move forward, like paradigm shifts in the world of science.


 
absolutely. that seems to be exactly what is happening there.


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## bigmac (Mar 21, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> ...
> 
> i have the feeling if she did have a sense of herself she probably wouldn't be with him because *he really isn't the nice guy he pretends to be*. he even thinks her self esteem is all about him and how comfortable she makes him feel. he's laying a guilt trip on her to get her to behave in ways he approves of in the world instead of waiting for her to work through it herself for real. someone who actually cares about you wouldn't do that. it's classic gamesmanship and control he's dealing in.
> 
> ...



Really? You're turning the rather sweet musings a young woman struggling with some internal conflict into another _men are evil_ rant.


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## superodalisque (Mar 22, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Really? You're turning the rather sweet musings a young woman struggling with some internal conflict into another _men are evil_ rant.


 
if you see it that way that's your issue not mine. good luck with that.


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## tonynyc (Mar 22, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> I feel so sorry for her. she has absolutely no personal identity. she keeps talking about what other people like and what a guy wants in her. she hasn't taken the time to find out what SHE actually wants at all. she probably doesn't even know. she got bigger. he liked it. but, does she like it?
> 
> her first mistake was asking the guy "what" he liked. she is not a what but a who. and IMO you should never ask a guy about whether he basically likes your body. if he is talking to you and asking you out like he's interested that can be assumed. it also attracts selfish users and people with entitled minds.
> 
> one day I hope she wakes up. she isn't unusual though. this is how society teaches women to think. *it's very hard to think/work ourselves out of it and stop acting like a porn choice instead of a whole person*.


 


bigmac said:


> GMAFB! This young lady is perfectly normal. She has plenty of personal identity. She's a young lady doing some intelligent introspection.
> 
> *And how the hell did you tie this article to porn*?


 
*Well BigMac : Seems as if some sort of obsession is going on - like Captain AHAB going after Moby Dick *


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## superodalisque (Mar 22, 2015)

tonynyc said:


> *Well BigMac : Seems as if some sort of obsession is going on - like Captain AHAB going after Moby Dick *


 

I would accept that critique if I weren't the one being followed around on posts . but ya know 

next time i'll run my personal opinion by you guys first before I post them okay?


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## mediaboy (Apr 13, 2015)

This article reminds me of so many girls I've dated.


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## Yakatori (Apr 14, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> "_i have the feeling if she did have a sense of herself she probably wouldn't be with him because he really isn't the nice guy he pretends to be. he even thinks her self esteem is all about him and how comfortable she makes him feel. he's laying a guilt trip on her to get her to behave in ways he approves of in the world instead of waiting for her to work through it herself for real. someone who actually cares about you wouldn't do that. it's classic gamesmanship and control he's dealing in._"


Was with you up to a point, but I think we really have to be careful in making this as much his fault. 

I mean, okay, maybe he's not really doing her any favors. But what's he supposed to do? Not date her? Pretend not to think Rebel Wilson (a TV Star) is pretty? As I've related in other threads, people do learn their way, themselves, through relationships. Yeah, ideally, we would all spend a certain amount of time alone on a mountain-top, in reflection.

But I think we all know, as human beings, we're also social creatures. And that a young, attractive woman is necessarily going to draw not only a certain degree of male attention, but actual initiative in that respect. And, frankly, many women just don't seriously consider the alternative in just being alone for a while. 

Is that because of a degree of social pressure on women to always be in some sort of relationship, their social value being tied to ability to attracting a man of some status? Or is it more just a function of opportunity, i.e. easier for most women to more consistently attract some sort of partner? I dunno. 

I'm just saying we should necessarily consider the guy's role in this on more of a relative scale. Such as how you say she wouldn't really bother with someone like him if she had any sense of self worth has to also take into some consideration as to just how bad/creepy he is vis a vis whatever else is out there. Certainly, she could do a lot worse.

Also, I don't know that you can fairly say that he's laying any kind of guilt on her. If he is, he should't do that. Of course. But, she's got to own that, her own emotions, her own values. If something he does causes her to question any of that, so much the better.

But, suppose he just dumps her with "_Look, you need to grow-up and move past all of this_," and maybe that is what will ultimately prove to be the real catalyst to her starting to take these kinds of questions & issues more seriously. Surely, we'd judge him for that, right? If not even more harshly. So, clearly, he has a very practical reason to _pretend_, and we're as much a part of that as anyone else; that is in as much as we're the one's judging him for it. Because, the alternative, simply waiting for her to get there on her own also begs the question of if we would we expect the same if the genders were reversed? 

Which, of course, I don't think we would, right?


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## superodalisque (Apr 14, 2015)

Yakatori said:


> Was with you up to a point, but I think we really have to be careful in making this as much his fault.
> 
> I mean, okay, maybe he's not really doing her any favors. But what's he supposed to do? Not date her? Pretend not to think Rebel Wilson (a TV Star) is pretty? As I've related in other threads, people do learn their way, themselves, through relationships. Yeah, ideally, we would all spend a certain amount of time alone on a mountain-top, in reflection.
> 
> ...


 

he was supposed to get to know her and see if they were compatible. it's not necessary to jump into a relationship before you get to know somebody. it isn't a race. and he is definitely not supposed to shame her as she is going through her process. 

he has shamed and quilted her because he told her that her issues were a problem for him. how is that not going to shame her or make her feel guilty? really? it's like telling someone who has cancer that their being sick is a problem for the "well" person and creating pressure that they should get well at the pace the "healthy" person want's totally ignoring the pace of nature . that is not going to help them get well. it's going to create more stress and more issues for them. cancer patients don't thrive under pressure either.

people heal in a place of rest and security. he is creating more negativity and self doubt in her when he should be empowering her and being supportive and allowing her to grow her strength for herself at her own pace. how many times do psychologists have to say that negative reinforcement doesn't work for people to finally get it?

there are other women. he didn't have to date her. and she certainly doesn't owe it to him to change into someone she honestly isn't right now. if he really cared about her he would love her as she is. if he is always trying to change her he really isn't into her. 

what is he supposed to do? he is supposed to grow the hell up and stop thinking that a woman is a shopping list whose ingredients he is entitled to. no one can make you feel bad. he has chosen to feel bad because she doesn't fall into the fantasy image he has of the perfect fat woman. he has issues because he doesn't understand that anybody he meets, dates, or has anything intimate to do with is going to have something going on with them he may not like--because they are human. if he doesn't understand that then he probably isn't ready for a relationship, especially not one with an emotionally fragile person. I don't know where people come up with the idea that anybody is really whole. it's either because they either know nothing or care nothing about another person's reality and are totally lacking in emotional intelligence.

I really don't mind if he dumps her because I think he is bad for her anyway. he's standing in the way of her having something real with herself and with someone else. a lot of women have been with men like these. they usually end up figuring it out eventually and dumping them. right now he is getting off on her issues because he can feel perfect and she is feeling lucky. he can stand back and point out all of her flaws while his can be ignored. it's a good trick that truly insecure men often use. they purposefully pick out troubled women they can do that with. some other woman will tell him that she can feel any way she wants to feel. 

a few years from now she will wonder at how she could or if she did feel anything for him at all except for a sense of desperation. you said she could do a lot worse. that's true. but it's also true that she could do a lot better. not all men are yutzes that pretend they are helping by being critical and telling fat people what they aren't. there isn't much difference between them and the negative public. love doesn't make you feel bad. I know a lot of good evolved men and they would and have picked this BS out for their women friends in a flash.


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## bigmac (Apr 14, 2015)

WTF is there another article people are talking about?

I reread the article -- and yes it is about a perfectly normal young couple exploring their attraction to each other. As described they both seem like nice intelligent people. Sorry, but there's no pathology here.


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## Yakatori (Apr 14, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> "_...he was supposed to get to know her and see if they were compatible. it's not necessary to jump into a relationship before you get to know somebody. it isn't a race. and he is definitely not supposed to shame her as she is going through her process._"


I understand all of that. There's no microwaving the process. However, the reality of how this works, for most people-I suspect, is that people do rush, into all kinds of things (jobs, purchases, re-locations, etc...) because '_it's time_.' 

We rationalize it any of a number of ways, sometimes putting a kind of reverse focus onto the situation-itself; that is, just focusing so much that it's an opportunity and will soon go-by rather than all of the practical implications that come with it. The opportunity-costs. Maybe it has something to do with how one thing's relatively straight-forward enough, whereas the other's seemingly infinite. Or that we simply don't want to be without.

But, the point being, this whole thing began in just two people who mutually decided to have sex after meeting in a bar. In all likelihood, there was never really any kind of defined plan or negotiation outside of "_Ok, let's keep going..._" And, let's also remember, she was apparently much happier with her body when they first met. When they first decided to commit to each other. So, between the two of them, he's more the one who's remained more consistent, the same. She's more the one who's in transition. And so they both rushed-in, she as much as him. Or so it would seem: 



superodalisque said:


> "_...people heal in a place of rest and security. he is creating more negativity and self doubt in her when he should be empowering her and being supportive and allowing her to grow her strength for herself at her own pace. how many times do psychologists have to say that negative reinforcement doesn't work for people to finally get it?_"


I understand that as well. But it's also important to point out, here, that you're (and rightfully) drawing some distinction between what type of communication that's supposed to come across in the context of one kind of relationship versus everything else that's outside of it, the atmospheric pressures whatever other external forces acting on it from all around. So, how openly you're judging and being critical of him (or her) is not really quite the same as how they should ideally both be relating to each other. 

Except, in reality, these things are so easily muddled. No relationship is happening on a deserted island, in a social vacuum. The challenges most typically come about in how the couple begins to relate to others as a couple. As such, the problem(s) & realities of _what-other-people-will-think_ will always seem to spill into it. 



superodalisque said:


> "_...I don't know where people come up with the idea that anybody is really whole. it's either because they either know nothing or care nothing about another person's reality and are totally lacking in emotional intelligence....has issues because he doesn't understand that anybody he meets, dates, or has anything intimate to do with is going to have something going on with them he may not like--because they are human. if he doesn't understand that then he probably isn't ready for a relationship, especially not one with an emotionally fragile person._"


It's not so much a question of being whole or not as much as a matter of who's at fault. And how to proceed from there. So, all of this support and time and '_room for her to grow_,' but nothing, really, commensurate for him. He is just supposed to _grow-up_ or otherwise be fully-formed all while she's owed patience. Affords everything to one person, in one direction, and asks nothing of them in return.



superodalisque said:


> "_I really don't mind if he dumps her because I think he is bad for her anyway...*he's standing in the way of her having something real with herself and with someone else.*.._"


In effect, this all distills down to that it's on him both to break-up AND not tell her anything about why. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of a relationship in the first place.



superodalisque said:


> "_...she could do a lot better. not all men are yutzes that pretend they are helping by being critical and telling fat people what they aren't. there isn't much difference between them and the negative public. love doesn't make you feel bad._"


But, to do do better, you have to actually do it, put yourself out there, compete. Although, here and there, people do get lucky; in as much as you consistently depend on luck, you luck will tend to run out. And so, while all potential partners have certain baggage and blind-spots, half of it is about you respond to any of that, what you, yourself, bring into the relationship. How you both figure how to constructively challenge each other.


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## Yakatori (Apr 14, 2015)

bigmac said:


> "_WTF is there another article people are talking about?
> 
> I reread the article -- and yes it is about a perfectly normal young couple exploring their attraction to each other. As described they both seem like nice intelligent people. Sorry, but there's no pathology here._"


Yes. Yes, they are normal, perfectly normal. That's correct enough.

But they're also kind of annoying.


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## superodalisque (Apr 14, 2015)

some things might be normal but it doesn't always make them right:

it was normal for black people to be slaves once too. it was normal for some slaves to be proud of being slaves in the house. 

average sized people are also "normal" 

"normal" is often highly overrated


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## superodalisque (Apr 15, 2015)

Yakatori said:


> I understand all of that. There's no microwaving the process. However, the reality of how this works, for most people-I suspect, is that people do rush, into all kinds of things (jobs, purchases, re-locations, etc...) because '_it's time_.'
> 
> We rationalize it any of a number of ways, sometimes putting a kind of reverse focus onto the situation-itself; that is, just focusing so much that it's an opportunity and will soon go-by rather than all of the practical implications that come with it. The opportunity-costs. Maybe it has something to do with how one thing's relatively straight-forward enough, whereas the other's seemingly infinite. Or that we simply don't want to be without.
> 
> ...


 
it's a fair question about expecting him to be fully formed. you're right about that. he CAN make mistakes too. but in the article she doesn't see that they are mistakes which is troubling for her. the problem is assuming he is not making any mistakes. 

you do have to get out there but you don't have to "compete" for a serious person's affection. there should be no competition in that sense. either the affection is there or it isn't. you can't create something that isn't there. at best you can create temporary sexual attraction if there isn't some kind of mutual love and respect there. like a lot of people I think she has confused sexual attraction with love. and women like this get shocked when men leave when the sex is good and want to know why. 

also relationships should have a kind of vacuum. society and other people should not be able to have a huge impact on your relationship with each other. it's the biggest mistake inexperienced people make -- giving people not in their relationship too much say. 


he doesn't have to tell her anything about herself if he breaks up with her. all he has to say is that he isn't feeling as he should about her. it certainly isn't his job to be telling her what is "wrong" with her. challenging people constructively in a love relationship isn't telling them what is wrong with them and acting disappointed. it's arrogant of people to "challenge" their partners anyway. challenging is combative. bringing combative positions into a relationship is not loving. being supportive, understanding, inspirational, helpful etc... is. being negative isn't. 

he can't force a woman or make a woman like herself especially for the sake of others. she has to come to it herself or it isn't real anyway. it's unfair to make her pretend for the sake of a his wants -- because she isn't changing fast enough into what he wants. now, if she decides on her own to fake it until she makes it for her own sake that is a whole different issue.

when he met her he knew who she was. he thought if he changed her she would be perfect. the truth is she has a character and a personality. it really is not going to change that much. this is who she is and always will be to a great extent. this worry is her disposition. it might get better but it's also just a big part of her temperament -- which is why there are fat people who have hardly ever been self conscious at all and others who will always struggle. she can't really change who he is either. he may evolve a bit but he is who he is. people need to start respecting that in each other. like they say, " when somebody shows you who they are believe them".

so if someone can't bring themselves to feel satisfied in a love relationship with someone the way that they already are then they should move on. people are not projects. treating them like one is disrespectful.


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## superodalisque (Apr 15, 2015)

I stole this from a friend. it's like it's written for this discussion:



The fact that youre struggling doesnt make you a burden. It doesnt make you unlovable or undesirable or undeserving of care. It doesnt make you too much or too sensitive or too needy. It makes you human. Everyone struggles. Everyone has a difficult time coping, and at times, we all fall apart. During these times, we arent always easy to be around  and thats okay. No one is easy to be around one hundred percent of the time. Yes, you may sometimes be unpleasant or difficult. And yes, you may sometimes do or say things that make the people around you feel helpless or sad. But those things arent all of who you are and they certainly dont discount your worth as a human being. The truth is that you can be struggling and still be loved. You can be difficult and still be cared for. You can be less than perfect, and still be deserving of compassion and kindness.

 Danielle Koepke (Internal Acceptance Movement)


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## bigmac (Apr 15, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> ... he is creating more negativity and self doubt in her when he should be empowering her and being supportive and allowing her to grow her strength for herself at her own pace. ...



This is BS. He was never anything but positive about her looks. She was a bit weirded out by his preference -- which was indeed her problem -- but she appears to be working through her issues.

Sometimes people just need to be called out about their issues. There's nothing wrong with a guy communicating his frustration in a reasonable manner. Indeed its a prerequisite to resolution.


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## superodalisque (Apr 15, 2015)

bigmac said:


> This is BS. He was never anything but positive about her looks. She was a bit weirded out by his preference -- which was indeed her problem -- but she appears to be working through her issues.
> 
> Sometimes people just need to be called out about their issues. There's nothing wrong with a guy communicating his frustration in a reasonable manner. Indeed its a prerequisite to resolution.


 
there is when it has something to do with how a woman feels about herself when she is already trying to work on it on her own --not helpful
especially not in the context of how she makes him feel regarding her own feelings she is trying to deal with. that is selfishness. calling out someone you love is BS. if someone can't be supportive and communicative without "calling out" an SO then they are being emotionally abusive.


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 22, 2015)

Why? Because you believe there's such a thing as a "self-contained" issue that is nobody else's business but your own, despite the fact someone else has made a deep and even compromising emotional investment in you? That staging an intervention in your significant other's self-destructive habits is cruel and selfish? :doh:


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## superodalisque (Apr 22, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Why? Because you believe there's such a thing as a "self-contained" issue that is nobody else's business but your own, despite the fact someone else has made a deep and even compromising emotional investment in you? That staging an intervention in your significant other's self-destructive habits is cruel and selfish? :doh:


 
there is a big difference in being interested supportive and involved and making someone's issue all about you


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 22, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> there is a big difference in being interested supportive and involved and making someone's issue all about you



The difference then, lies entirely in the eye of the beholder. Would you honestly deny that historically _your _beholding eye is skewed in such a way as to perceive such involvement as egotistical intrusion, even if you were the only person in the room who thought so?


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## superodalisque (Apr 22, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> The difference then, lies entirely in the eye of the beholder. Would you honestly deny that historically _your _beholding eye is skewed in such a way as to perceive such involvement as egotistical intrusion, even if you were the only person in the room who thought so?


 

so for example, a person who is depressed should get over their depression because it makes you sad right? how do you see that working out ?


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 23, 2015)

Hahaha, I know a trap of semantics when I see it. But if in the context we're depicting depression not as a psychophysical malady diagnosable as a mental illness, but as a set of emotional habits into which one is psychologically conditioned and thus can be psychologically reconditioned? Just so it's the same as self-esteem? Sure, I'll bite. 

Then yes, if a partner's depression is creating a toxic environment endangering the long-term emotional health of others (spouse and family for example) then yes, it's liable to be addressed similar to an addiction or a self-harming habit. Confrontation if they are in denial, followed by strict transparency about behaviors, self-talk, rationalizations, triggers, and temptations... you know, group rehabilitation.


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## superodalisque (Apr 23, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Hahaha, I know a trap of semantics when I see it. But if in the context we're depicting depression not as a psychophysical malady diagnosable as a mental illness, but as a set of emotional habits into which one is psychologically conditioned and thus can be psychologically reconditioned? Just so it's the same as self-esteem? Sure, I'll bite.
> 
> Then yes, if a partner's depression is creating a toxic environment endangering the long-term emotional health of others (spouse and family for example) then yes, it's liable to be addressed similar to an addiction or a self-harming habit. Confrontation if they are in denial, followed by strict transparency about behaviors, self-talk, rationalizations, triggers, and temptations... you know, group rehabilitation.


 
in psychology there is nothing said about doing it to please others. it's called _self _esteem for a reason. knowing you're okay within yourself as nothing to do with whether how you feel about yourself makes anyone else feel good or bad. what it is about is accepting yourself unconditionally--and not on the condition that someone else approve of how you feel about yourself.

there is something sick and narcissistic about someone who thinks your feelings about yourself have to come through them.


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 23, 2015)

Like every internal mechanism of the heart and human psyche, self-esteem has an outward manifestation, consciously or subconsciously. The motivation to make a positive change can still enact a positive change, despite people like you who debate about the ethics of the motivation:

Do you feel it's somehow *more virtuous* to quit self-destructive alcoholism because you arrive at an epiphany and - free from any accountability to anyone but your own volition - you quit, than to quit because you wake up one day and realize your habit is inflicting misery like a disease upon the people in your life and you respond out of empathy instead of ego?


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## bigmac (Apr 23, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> ... it's called _self _esteem for a reason. knowing you're okay within yourself as nothing to do with whether how you feel about yourself makes anyone else feel good or bad. what it is about is accepting yourself unconditionally ...



What a load of BS. Self-worth is a product of effort and achievement. These qualities are objectively measurable. Unconditional acceptance is often an excuse for mediocrity.


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## superodalisque (Apr 24, 2015)

bigmac said:


> What a load of BS. Self-worth is a product of effort and achievement. These qualities are objectively measurable. Unconditional acceptance is often an excuse for mediocrity.


 

in order to achieve you have to accept yourself problems and all so that you don't get stuck. that doesn't come through others.


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## bigmac (Apr 24, 2015)

Psychobabble!


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## superodalisque (Apr 25, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Psychobabble!


 
you wish lol. I know a lot of people here feel they should be able to press their wishes on a fat body and make the person in it feel they even owe them their identity and to squash their own authentic feelings. 

oh sure. we should just totally ignore the self in self esteem and just follow everybody who wants us to do what they think we should exactly how they think we should to make them happy including WLS and weight loss if they want us skinny too. 

by your reasoning he could just have just as easily said that he would be happier if she was more comfortable with the idea of getting skinny . doesn't sound so nice when you put it that way does it? well it's the SAME thing. 

her self esteem should be all about her, how she actually feels and who she actually is


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 25, 2015)

I reiterate:



Extinctor100 said:


> The motivation to make a positive change can still enact a positive change, despite people like you who debate about the ethics of the motivation:
> 
> Do you feel it's somehow *more virtuous* to quit self-destructive alcoholism because you arrive at an epiphany and - free from any accountability to anyone but your own volition - you quit, than to quit because you wake up one day and realize your habit is inflicting misery like a disease upon the people in your life and you respond out of empathy instead of ego?



What's with the false dichotomy that everything is either (a) total submission to the whims of others with no regard to your own happiness, or (b) total focus on self-realization with no regard or empathy for others you affect?

LOL am I the only representative of the Rational Moderate party here? :huh:


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## superodalisque (Apr 26, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> I reiterate:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol you wish 

so what's so hard to understand that intervening in the personal work a fat person has to do to get their self esteem with outside selfish guilt has nothing to do with getting that person where they need to go ?

it's like your mom trying to guilt you into getting good grades or behave well. the real motivator that works long term is seriously wanting to and understanding the benefit of getting good grades or behaving well for yourself. making your mom happy is nice but it's not a part of the internal work you need to do to get yourself there. the effects of pleasing someone else are only temporary.


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 26, 2015)

So by your rationale, quitting alcoholism by realizing how self-destructive it is, is better than quitting alcoholism because others help you realize how self-destructive it is.

If you don't let the village raise you, you won't owe the village. The ego above all else. :doh:


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## superodalisque (Apr 26, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> So by your rationale, quitting alcoholism by realizing how self-destructive it is, is better than quitting alcoholism because others help you realize how self-destructive it is.
> 
> If you don't let the village raise you, you won't owe the village. The ego above all else. :doh:


 
it's obvious you've had nothing to do with anyone who is an alcoholic and definitely nothing to do with helping anyone through treatment of any kind. sure intervention can get them to see reality but this woman already knew her self esteem wasn't up to snuff and was exploring that. a lot of alcoholics don't feel they have a problem at all. that it's you who has the problem. that kind of intervention is only to get their initial attention and shake them awake so that they'll see their problem and get treatment. she already sees her problem. 

In this young woman's case she already knows she has issues with her self esteem. constantly pointing out how wrong people are or how bad they make you feel is not helpful at all at that point. it's like telling a person who is actually trying to be thin and on a diet how terrible they are fat and how bad they make you feel. it's not going to help them. in fact it will drive them to eat just like telling alcoholics how bad they are and how bad they make you feel when they are trying to work on it creates pressure for them to drink. even the most basic literature would tell you that if you actually cared enough about that instead of your own desires to look. 

by your reasoning all of the fat talk out there should be helping people who want it to get slim. that's why diets fail as the diet industry is well aware of and counting on to keep fat people coming back. guilt does not work. negative reinforcement does not work.


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## superodalisque (Apr 26, 2015)

*Chapter 4: Section 3: Reinforcement and Reinforcement Schedules*


By Dr. Christopher L. Heffner 

Dr. Christopher L. Heffner August 21, 2014 Chapter 4: Section 3: Reinforcement and Reinforcement Schedules2014-11-17T22:20:44+00:00 
*The term reinforce means to strengthen, and is used in psychology to refer to anything stimulus which strengthens or increases the probability of a specific response. For example, if you want your dog to sit on command, you may give him a treat every time he sits for you. The dog will eventually come to understand that sitting when told to will result in a treat. This treat is reinforcing because he likes it and will result in him sitting when instructed to do so.*

This is a simple description of a reinforcer (Skinner, 1938), the treat, which increases the response, sitting. We all apply reinforcers everyday, most of the time without even realizing we are doing it. You may tell your child “good job” after he or she cleans their room; perhaps you tell your partner how good he or she look when they dress up; or maybe you got a raise at work after doing a great job on a project. All of these things increase the probability that the same response will be repeated.
There are four types of reinforcement: positive, negative, punishment, and extinction. We’ll discuss each of these and give examples.
Positive Reinforcement. The examples above describe what is referred to as positive reinforcement. Think of it as adding something in order to increase a response. For example, adding a treat will increase the response of sitting; adding praise will increase the chances of your child cleaning his or her room. The most common types of positive reinforcement or praise and rewards, and most of us have experienced this as both the giver and receiver.
Negative Reinforcement. Think of negative reinforcement as taking something negative away in order to increase a response. Imagine a teenager who is nagged by his mother to take out the garbage week after week. After complaining to his friends about the nagging, he finally one day performs the task and to his amazement, the nagging stops. The elimination of this negative stimulus is reinforcing and will likely increase the chances that he will take out the garbage next week.
Punishment. Punishment refers to adding something aversive in order to decrease a behavior. The most common example of this is disciplining (e.g. spanking) a child for misbehaving. The reason we do this is because the child begins to associate being punished with the negative behavior. The punishment is not liked and therefore to avoid it, he or she will stop behaving in that manner.
Extinction. When you remove something in order to decrease a behavior, this is called extinction. You are taking something away so that a response is decreased.
*Research has found positive reinforcement is the most powerful of any of these. Adding a positive to increase a response not only works better, but allows both parties to focus on the positive aspects of the situation. Punishment, when applied immediately following the negative behavior can be effective, but results in extinction when it is not applied consistently. Punishment can also invoke other negative responses such as anger and resentment.*


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## LiLaKuhJunge (Apr 26, 2015)

BigCutieClementine said:


> Honestly, when I became a web model I remember one of my girlfriends asking WHO was buying my stuff and I explained to her
> [snip]
> 
> But the fact is that we are told every day by society that IF someone ever DOES like our body it's because they are fetishizing it. And ya know what? A lot of the guys that like our bodies ARE fetishizing them.



What your friend said was basically: "My boy friend is normal because he is attracted to *me*, but your boy friend is a pervert, because he is *not* attracted to *me*".

And of course she is loved for her personality only! 
That explains why she spends hours on perfecting her look, suffers endless diets and goes through pains waxing her legs or whatever.

And - I as a guy can tell you first hand that this kind of girl wants the boy roll in the dust adoring her beauty. If that is not fetishizing, then what is?

I hope I am wrong ;-)


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## superodalisque (Apr 26, 2015)

LiLaKuhJunge said:


> What your friend said was basically: "My boy friend is normal because he is attracted to *me*, but your boy friend is a pervert, because he is *not* attracted to *me*".
> 
> And of course she is loved for her personality only!
> That explains why she spends hours on perfecting her look, suffers endless diets and goes through pains waxing her legs or whatever.
> ...


 
finding a woman attractive and fetishizing them are two different things. you need to look up the definition of fetish. women of all sizes can be attractive to someone and women of all sizes can be fetishized by someone. it depends on exactly on how individual people are approaching the situation. so she_ might_ be saying that the women who is fat is not being treated like a person by the person she is with right now. that doesn't assume it's necessarily because he isn't attracted to her. it could be or it could not be --depending.


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 27, 2015)

It _is_ actually a very accurate analogy to compare the self-esteem problem to alcoholism.


Both are self-destructive, self-perpetuated mental habits.
Both are the product of internal marginalizing, rationalization, and self-pity.
Both are processes to recover from, not events.
Both are erosive to your conscientiousness to others.
Both are inhibitors to your ability to care for yourself and others.
Both are paths traveled to deaden oneself to hurt or pain.
Both are learned behaviors and thus can be unlearned.



superodalisque said:


> Dr. Christopher L. Heffner August 21, 2014 Chapter 4: Section 3: Reinforcement and Reinforcement Schedules2014-11-17T22:20:44+00:00
> *The term reinforce means to strengthen, and is used in psychology to refer to anything stimulus which strengthens or increases the probability of a specific response. For example, if you want your dog to sit on command, you may give him a treat every time he sits for you. The dog will eventually come to understand that sitting when told to will result in a treat. This treat is reinforcing because he likes it and will result in him sitting when instructed to do so.*



According to the last 2 pages of discussion on this topic, you're against any kind of reinforcement either *positive *(because how dare he be so narcissistic to think his compliments would help his girlfriend?) or *negative *(because how dare he be so narcissistic to feel hurt by her self-hatred). So you don't need to border on _ad hominem_ trying to insinuate I'm ignorant of the effects of negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is not what we're talking about.

What I'm highlighting - though you resist acknowledging it - is that stepping out beyond your own ego to understand the perspective of others, isn't the compromise of principles you seem to think it is. The very concept of leaving the ego behind to empathize with someone, you equate with assimilating guilt... which I would say is strange except that you've preached this message on hundreds of threads before, so it's not exactly foreign to any of us... It's as if you've been conditioned to the point of hearing "Don't you FEEL BAD?" whenever someone says "Can't you understand how I might feel?" Why say there is shame in taking compliments to heart? ...for fear that it would require taking any vitrol similarly to heart? That's like having such a fear of food poisoning that you feel insulted and call people "narcissistic" for offering you a meal or a nice dinner, because you only feel safe eating things you've raised, picked, and butchered yourself in your own house.

I could never advocate people living in such a constant state of _fear_ and callousness purely for their own ego's self-satisfaction.


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## superodalisque (Apr 29, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> It _is_ actually a very accurate analogy to compare the self-esteem problem to alcoholism.
> 
> 
> Both are self-destructive, self-perpetuated mental habits.
> ...


 
the writer said he told her how bad she makes him feel. he did not compliment her.


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 29, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> the writer said he told her how bad she makes him feel. he did not compliment her.



...A sentiment that the writer herself was able to sympathize with later, as she described while consoling him over his own insecurity about his weight gain. She realized that "you make me feel bad" was not some premeditated, manipulative gesture designed to conform her to his expectations. It was an honest, open confession that he experienced rejection and resentment from the woman he adored, despite the fact he praised her to his friends (a gesture which is generally lauded by women who complain that their FA men hide them from friends and family out of shame).

What further grievance could you possibly have against the man, other than that you harbor deep ire and resistance against the notion that we are responsible for how we affect others, _including_ the effects of our inner mechanisms' (such as self-esteem) outer manifestations? Accusing someone of being "narcissistic" for bleeding when the shrapnel of your personal, private self-destruction hits them isn't just ignorant, it's cruel.


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## bigmac (Apr 29, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> ...
> 
> ... She realized that "you make me feel bad" was not some premeditated, manipulative gesture designed to conform her to his expectations. It was an honest, open confession that he experienced rejection and resentment from the woman he adored, despite the fact he praised her to his friends (a gesture which is generally lauded by women who complain that their FA men hide them from friends and family out of shame).
> 
> ... .



Yes! Working through a issue is a sign of a healthy relationship.


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## bigmac (Apr 29, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> finding a woman attractive and fetishizing them are two different things. ...




Attraction = acceptably erotic

Fetish = unacceptably erotic


The only difference is in the mind of the person doing the judging.


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## superodalisque (Apr 30, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Attraction = acceptably erotic
> 
> Fetish = unacceptably erotic
> 
> ...



says people who don't know or don't want to know the meaning of language.

Webster:

attraction : : a feeling that makes someone romantically or sexually interested in another person.

fetish: an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression


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## Extinctor100 (Apr 30, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Attraction = acceptably erotic
> 
> Fetish = unacceptably erotic



But this one is from the Unabridged Superodalisque Dictionary, no? Surely the superior tome to use.


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## superodalisque (Apr 30, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> But this one is from the Unabridged Superodalisque Dictionary, no? Surely the superior tome to use.


 

pretend all you want but it's weird when men think a woman has to live through them and their opinions. 

thank you for doing me the favor of showing that up so well.


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## superodalisque (May 1, 2015)

this says it better and more directly than I ever could: 

View attachment Screen-Shot-2014-05-30-at-2.24.41-PM-615x342.png


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## bigmac (May 1, 2015)

And back to the evil that is man.


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## superodalisque (May 1, 2015)

bigmac said:


> And back to the evil that is man.


 
men are not evil, just messed up people who think they are entitled to everything including even how you feel about yourself and them. 

View attachment graphic-shootermain-0525.jpg


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## GoodDaySir (May 1, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> men are not evil, just messed up people who think they are entitled to everything including even how you feel about yourself and them.



you say men aren't evil, but then you show a picture of a guy who killed a bunch of people. you are so fucked up.


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## Extinctor100 (May 1, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> men are not evil, just messed up people who think they are entitled to everything including even how you feel about yourself and them.



Just the fact that you turn every issue ever presented into another bloodied field in the battle of the sexes, shows how truly broken a person you are. You've answered me with questions and dodged my assertions about your motivation, so I've no other conclusion. Someone traumatized - scared to death of disapproval - so badly that she'll lash out and twist the healthy empathy and cooperation between a couple... someone so offended at herself for being a woman, that she feels the need to attack others she perceives as enemies because they're her "opposite." And then you soak in the praise of others for being "brave" when what you are is _brazen_. You vaunt your own ego at the expense of empathy and understanding. You're proud to have made yourself a personification of the False Dichotomy fallacy.


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## bigmac (May 1, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> men are not evil, *just messed up people who *think they are entitled to everything including even how you feel about yourself and them.



OK then -- we're not inherently evil -- just messed up in a way that appears evil. Thanks for the clarification.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Just the fact that you turn every issue ever presented into another bloodied field in the battle of the sexes, shows how truly broken a person you are. You've answered me with questions and dodged my assertions about your motivation, so I've no other conclusion. Someone traumatized - scared to death of disapproval - so badly that she'll lash out and twist the healthy empathy and cooperation between a couple... someone so offended at herself for being a woman, that she feels the need to attack others she perceives as enemies because they're her "opposite." And then you soak in the praise of others for being "brave" when what you are is _brazen_. You vaunt your own ego at the expense of empathy and understanding. You're proud to have made yourself a personification of the False Dichotomy fallacy.


 

nothing changes the fact that a woman's self esteem should not be dependent on anyone or that her self esteem journey is hers.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

bigmac said:


> OK then -- we're not inherently evil -- just messed up in a way that appears evil. Thanks for the clarification.


 
only people who are messed up no matter their sex. people who think other people owe them anything especially a certain level of_ *self*_esteem to make them happy are pretty messed up people.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

let me make this clear. like the sign says, I need feminism because I shouldn't have to justify feminism. 

View attachment images (17).jpg


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

and this also 

View attachment a4568c4ed8a290dc47b57c31bd5dccd3.jpg


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## Extinctor100 (May 2, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> only people who are messed up no matter their sex. people who think other people owe them anything especially a certain level of_ *self*_esteem to make them happy are pretty messed up people.



Well as it's been clarified for you, none of the above occurred in the article's account. Looks like your "feminism" was not needed here.

And as it's been clarified for _us_, your feminism is not feminism. It's your fragile, scared ego lashing out every time your triggers are set off. So stop hiding behind an -ism like you're some champion of human rights on a podium. You're not. You're a carrier for a contagion of fear.


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## GoodDaySir (May 2, 2015)




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## bigmac (May 2, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Well as it's been clarified for you, *none of the above occurred in the article's account*. Looks like your "feminism" was not needed here.
> 
> And as it's been clarified for _us_, your feminism is not feminism. It's your fragile, scared ego lashing out every time your triggers are set off. So stop hiding behind an -ism like you're some champion of human rights on a podium. You're not. You're a carrier for a contagion of fear.



Exactly -- the article was about sweet young couple who seem to really like each other. Its about an issue many fat folks deal with -- what to make of the fact that my partner likes something about me that I don't. This couple seems to have dealt with this issue is a positive way.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Well as it's been clarified for you, none of the above occurred in the article's account. Looks like your "feminism" was not needed here.
> 
> And as it's been clarified for _us_, your feminism is not feminism. It's your fragile, scared ego lashing out every time your triggers are set off. So stop hiding behind an -ism like you're some champion of human rights on a podium. You're not. You're a carrier for a contagion of fear.


 
evident you didn't read the article and still side tracking the issue. self esteem is for self. that is why it's called self esteem.

reposting Phil's Marilyn Wann's quote from elsewhere for clarity:

"A person who says they are attracted to fat people & tell us not to feel bad, because they see us as attractive. As if that addresses all of weight oppression. As if they should get bonus points for saying something that should be obvious. As if fat people should feel grateful and focus on pleasing them, not on any other topic, like, say, our oppression. My standard response, delivered with whatever wording works at the time: People who find attractive the same characteristics that are targets of societal prejudice, discrimination, and oppression need to show up for the fight to end these injustices. Or, yknow, admit to being selfish wan...kers." 


ot the rest of the people who probably aren't even reading anymore sorry for feeding the trolls y'all and allowing things to derail. I need to put an end to this foolishness. it could have been a good thread.


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## Extinctor100 (May 2, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> evident you didn't read the article and still side tracking the issue. self esteem is for self. that is why it's called self esteem.



No, we pretty firmly established that you colored the article's situation to be something it's not (narcissistic-oppressive), to which you have no retort except to reassert that a woman's self-esteem is "about self" - a meaningless bit of semantics to try to justify that the ego is more important than empathy. Your logic is the same as "I privately bought and own a gun, it's nobody's business but my own what I do with it." I highlighted that and used your point to further prove that the topic of a woman's self-esteem is a hot-button for you that elicits an irrational response, which you continue to demonstrate by avoiding your personal motivation and instead falling back on quoting fortune-cookie Tumblr memes.

You refuse to address the simple fact: that you've unfairly recharacterized the entire issue based on the prejudice, fear, and bitterness you've embraced and hidden thinly. And true to form, you snake out of every corner where otherwise you'd have to admit you're too jaded to hold an objective point of view and too self-righteous to admit that anybody else could.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Well as it's been clarified for you, none of the above occurred in the article's account. Looks like your "feminism" was not needed here.
> 
> And as it's been clarified for _us_, your feminism is not feminism. It's your fragile, scared ego lashing out every time your triggers are set off. So stop hiding behind an -ism like you're some champion of human rights on a podium. You're not. You're a carrier for a contagion of fear.


 
sorry but I don't fall for gas lighting. keep trying.


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## Extinctor100 (May 2, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> sorry but I don't fall for gas lighting. keep trying.



Another attempt to start an argument over general semantics.

I disregard this response and call on anybody reading this thread to confirm that everything I've asserted about you is not only true, but self-evident over thousands of posts throughout the Dimensions forums. The burden of proof is not upon me when everyone reading could bear testimony; we sit amid piles of the evidence. The burden of proof is on you to clear yourself. Otherwise, all the above conclusions are true.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

Extinctor100 said:


> Another attempt to start an argument over general semantics.
> 
> I disregard this response and call on anybody reading this thread to confirm that everything I've asserted about you is not only true, but self-evident over thousands of posts throughout the Dimensions forums. The burden of proof is not upon me when everyone reading could bear testimony; we sit amid piles of the evidence. The burden of proof is on you to clear yourself. Otherwise, all the above conclusions are true.


 
ah nope. a woman's self esteem is still her own, and for her. nothing will change that.


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## Extinctor100 (May 2, 2015)

There's no better feeling than concluding a discussion knowing all your points have been left to stand, firm and towering, on their own merit. Later everyone!


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## bigmac (May 2, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> ...
> 
> reposting Phil's Marilyn Wann's quote from elsewhere for clarity:
> 
> ...



Talk about unreasonable expectations. If a fat woman expects her boyfriend to "address all of weight discrimination" she had better get used to disappointment.

Also, in a discussion about self-esteem, I wouldn't be relying upon the statements of someone who doesn't actually respect the choices individuals make. Marilyn considers people who have WLS traitors and has stated that if a friend had WLS she'd end the friendship.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

I. Symptoms of Narcissism

Narcissists display extreme selfishness, a lack of empathy, and a craving for admiration. Freud aptly named the disorder after the mythological figure of Narcissus, who fell in love with his own reflection in a pool of water, and was doomed to never receive any love back from his reflection...
*Feeling entitled and lacking in empathy, narcissists tend to exploit others to serve their own needs. Focused on their own needs and frustrations, they become skillful at controlling and blaming others.* As you can see, superiority and entitlement do not promote mutually-satisfying, long-term close relationships...

*You cannot change a narcissist, as they rarely, if ever, believe they need to change. However, whether your partner is merely selfish or narcissistic, you need to take care of yourself to avoid being exploited and hurt. You can’t expect him to set the boundaries needed to protect you. Nor can you expect him to fulfill your needs and desires, unless it suits his goals for stardom.*
*Generally you should not count on anyone fulfilling your deepest needs and taking care of you. However, it is definitely desirable to be with someone who is considerate, loving and thoughtful*—traits, which the narcissist can temporarily fake, but cannot truly embody...

Narcissism is basically a psychological coping mechanism for low self-esteem. Ironically the narcissist rarely believes that he or she has a problem with self-esteem...
To protect oneself from the emotional pendulum of the narcissist, it’s best not to make your self-worth dependent on one by perpetually trying to please the narcissist. While the charisma bestowed on you might feel irresistible at first, it could soon turn into punishing scorn and retaliation...
it’s vitally important to protect yourself from demeaning behavior. It’s usually a good first step to point out that the culprit’s actions are affecting you negatively. However, it’s probably impossible to persuade a full-fledged narcissist to change given his or her primary motivating force. It’s better to know whom you are dealing with and then decide how to enjoy and/or limit the relationship.

*Dealing with a Narcissist*

Don’t Trust a Narcissist:
Don’t look for intimacy with a narcissist. If you decide to enjoy the narcissist’s charm and charisma, make sure that doesn’t translate into trusting him or her with inner secrets. Don’t set yourself up for betrayal and hurt by having confidence in his or her loyalty. Don’t let your feelings of self-worth depend on a narcissist’s love, actions or behavior.

Speak to the Narcissist’s Self-interest:
It’s usually helpful to express your feelings or needs. But if you’re dealing with a true narcissist, don’t expect empathy and understanding. It’s more effective to show how something will benefit him or her.

Don’t Disagree:
Beware of disagreeing with or contradicting narcissists.* They behave as though they are confident and strong but they are easily offended. They don’t want to be found to be inadequate. If you confront their weaknesses, they may become vengeful and punishing. Keep your discussion focused on practical goals rather than personal accountability.*

Be on your Guard:
*Narcissists hide their own flaws and project problems on to other people. Beware of allowing them to blame you for too much*. If you are doing business with a narcissist, keep a paper trail. In marriage or divorce, hire a good attorney.
Don’t hope for Change:
It takes a lot of motivation for anyone to change. Unfortunately, narcissists rarely have the desire to change, because they don’t think they need to. They rarely seek counseling, but if they do go, they tend to manipulate the situation in order to look good rather than self-reflect to improve their lives.
Yet, it is helpful to recognize their traits. Then you can choose when to encourage the narcissist’s self-image, to bring a sense of humor, or not deal 
with him or her at all.

Avoid being Narcissistic:
*We all have some narcissistic tendencies, and should beware of becoming dependent on others for their compliments and approval to boost our feelings of self-worth. Psychological dependence on others comes at a cost. It’s good to be reflective and thoughtful to make sure we are considering both our own self-interest and that of others.*
There is a big difference, however, between being insecure or self-centered and having the condition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. If you are self-reflective enough to even wonder whether you are a narcissist, let alone read a psychology blog, it’s highly unlikely that you are!

by Alison Poulsen, PhD


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## bigmac (May 2, 2015)

The last post is truly ironic.


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## superodalisque (May 2, 2015)

bigmac said:


> The last post is truly ironic.


 
yes it is ironic that it came in so handy isn't it


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## superodalisque (May 10, 2015)

10 Signs You're In A Codependent Relationship
By Jennifer Kass 
January 15, 2015 8:19 AM EST





 

If there's one area of our lives that we tend to care most about, relationships might be it. In Elizabeth Gilbert's _Eat Pray Love, _she describes her friend, a psychologist, who is asked to offer counseling to Cambodian refugees. Daunted by the task of helping people who have suffered such harrowing journeys, she discovers all they wanted to talk about were their relationships. 
Relationships bring us our greatest joys and our greatest challenges. From a spiritual perspective, relationships are assignments for the purpose of growth opportunities. It is in the context of a relationship with another individual where we see the places in which we need to heal, based on our triggers, blocks and patterns. 

Codependency is arguably one of the biggest challenges most of us face in relationships — that feeling that we can't exist without the other person, that their existence and validation is required for us to feel happy, even complete. Codependency blocks us from accessing our best selves, and also blocks the potential for further growth in the relationship. 
Strangely, most of us don't even know we're enacting codependent patterns in our relationships. Why? Because we've been taught to believe certain myths about how relationships work, especially romantic relationships. Many of these myths foster codependency. 
I was living in codependent relationships for two decades and didn't even know it. When I hit a rock-bottom in a breakup a few years ago, it was all revealed to me; my fears came rushing in and my patterns rose to the surface for me to finally see them clearly. My fears of being alone, my deep longing for the love and attention outside of me, the fact that I had placed my power in another person making them the source of my love and happiness, all came into my awareness and there was no turning back. 
I was finally ready to do things differently. Knowing there must be a better way, I stepped onto my spiritual path and experienced a radical transformation from the inside out, beginning with the relationship with myself. First step was awareness — recognizing the ways in which I had been living in codependent relationships and letting fear run the show, which was not love. 
A lot of the time codependency looks like intense love, but "needing" another person often stems from fear, not love. Here are ten common ways to identify if you're in a codependent relationship (and might not even know it): 

_*1.* *You* *can't live without the other person.* _
_I know, this is supposed to be romantic, but it's not, it's attachment which is different from connection. It's not sexy and it's not fulfilling. Recognize your wholeness and completeness so that you can truly enjoy the other person in your life rather than being half of a person who is incomplete without someone else; you are the cake — everything else is the icing. _

_*2. **The other person must behave in a certain way*. _
_In order for you to feel loved or for you to love them, the other person must be who we need them to be. This is conditional love (__as opposed to unconditional love__), which doesn't allow the other person to be who they really are: in other words, your happiness is dependent on them being how you want them to be. _

*3.* *You blame others for how you feel.* 
We are actually responsible for how we feel and it's not someone else's responsibility to make us happy. We make ourselves happy first so that others can make us happy. 

*4.* *You play caregiver*. 
A healthy relationship is between two adults, not two children or one child and one parent. When we are mothering or taking care of someone who is not taking care of themselves, it's disempowering for both people. When we spiritually grow up, we learn how to take care of ourselves so someone else doesn't have to do it for us and we can live in our highest truth, not as a child or a victim or helpless. We are all capable. 

*5. **You're controlling outcomes and situations.* 
When we are controlling the other person or how things are unfolding, we are living in fear not in love. Surrender the relationship, surrender the other person's process and what their choices are and trust that everything will unfold perfectly if you allow it to do so. 

*6. **You give from a place of lack.* 
We might be putting ourselves last and focusing on the other person more than we do ourselves and we lose ourselves in the relationship. This pattern comes from a lack of self-love and when we try to give from an empty well, anger and resentment can build because we are not filling ourselves up first and giving from a place of abundance. 

*7. **You think your happiness is predicated on the other person. *
It's not. Our happiness is within and when we stop searching for it in our partner, and instead connect with ourselves in a daily practice, we connect to our true source within and that happiness can overflow to the other person, rather than making them our only source. 

*8. **You don't feel free*. 
Love is freedom. Rules and constrictions are fear. We must do what we want to do, not what other people want us to do. 

*9. **You're waiting to be saved.* 
No, this isn't a conscious choice and yes, it's rampant in our collective psyche. Save yourself. Be your own knight in shining armor, the heroine of your own story and then he can be exactly who he needs to be, without having to rescue you. 

*10. **You think you need to get the love you want.* 
Giving love is more important than getting love. You have an unlimited source within you. It will come back to you tenfold.


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