# Fat as punishment



## Jes (Feb 25, 2008)

An intentionally vague and open-ended question:

what do you think about fat being seen as punishment? Fat doled out as punishment, I mean? Making someone fat against her/his will, as a punitive thing?


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## goldilocks829 (Feb 25, 2008)

There have been studies where people would rather lose a limb or get cancer (and I'm sure many other horrible things) rather than be fat, so it would probably be a good deterrent for many. 

Good question!


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## imfree (Feb 25, 2008)

That could actually have a rehabilitative effect on
certain psychopathic criminals.


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## coyote wild (Feb 25, 2008)

It definitely allows for wonderful scenarios in the realm of WG fiction. It's just more interesting to me than someone gaining weight because they want to. That's just...boring, I guess. There isn't much conflict in WG fiction, it's just one wonderful, fattening thing happening after another. Conflict is (arguably) necessary in stories and sometimes it's fun if the conflict stems from a character not wanting to be fat.

I don't think of stories like that as anti-fat. Just because a made-up protagonist doesn't think highly of fat, doesn't mean the author looks down on it as well. I think fat is a beautiful and wonderful thing, but many of my characters don't share my sentiment. I just want to write interesting, sexy stories. Not that I have in a while. Or ever, arguably.


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## Jes (Feb 25, 2008)

You're hitting on what I'm trying to get to the heart of here, Coyote.

If that punishment is described in really horrible terms (and not necessarily by the 'victim'), what does that mean? What are the implications of that? What might that be saying about fat, ultimately?


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## Spanky (Feb 25, 2008)

Jes said:


> You're hitting on what I'm trying to get to the heart of here, Coyote.
> 
> If that punishment is described in really horrible terms (and not necessarily by the 'victim'), what does that mean? What are the implications of that? What might that be saying about fat, ultimately?



Ack, I am thinking too much, and creatively, mind you. 

You'd be a great Literature/Creative Writing teacher. :bow:

Just sayin'......Teech.


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## ZainTheInsane (Feb 25, 2008)

I don't think society, even despite its recent anti-fat feeling, has associated being fat necessarily with being punished.

in the past it has been regarded as a sign of wealth, prosperity, and good fortune...even fertility. In the modern day it is seen with distain...but I doubt any would consider it to be on the same level as punishment.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 25, 2008)

What do I think of it as "punishment"? I would like to paint some sweet, rosy picture of myself right now. However, I feel compelled to admit GREAT JOY and amusement when I see people that have always been thin....as in the kind that eat whatever they want and never gain an ounce, suddenly start gaining weight. Most of them FREAK so bad...start going on about dieting and exercising... meanwhile I am LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT~!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA Gawd it's good!!!!!!!!




What does it all mean? Does this make me a bad person or something?


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## stan_der_man (Feb 25, 2008)

Jes said:


> You're hitting on what I'm trying to get to the heart of here, Coyote.
> 
> If that punishment is described in really horrible terms (and not necessarily by the 'victim'), what does that mean? What are the implications of that? What might that be saying about fat, ultimately?



If fat is being used as punishment (in whatever scenario...), presumably in the form of immobilization or suffering, that would imply that fat (the weight of fat) is a burden of some sort, or an imprisonment.

The opposite of that is fat being viewed as a surplus, a sign of wealth or opulence, or a symbol of size and power.


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## IceTeaPrincess (Feb 25, 2008)

Jes said:


> An intentionally vague and open-ended question:
> 
> what do you think about fat being seen as punishment? Fat doled out as punishment, I mean? Making someone fat against her/his will, as a punitive thing?



Do u mean in erotic fantasy?
This reminds me a bit of something that I often see in erotica of all different types. It's the portrayal of the sex object in an "Oh No!!" light....
Helplessness! It is especially seen a lot in erotic japanese comics & animation where the look on the sex object's face is a portrait of shock/surprise/pain/despair. It doesn't get talked about too much, but that type of thing has a weird powerful erotic effect on many people.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Feb 25, 2008)

imfree said:


> That could actually have a rehabilitative effect on
> certain psychopathic criminals.



What? No.

Why would weight make people better or worse?

BTK's fat. Dahmer's thin. Neither are awesome guys.


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## Spanky (Feb 25, 2008)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> What? No.
> 
> Why would weight make people better or worse?
> 
> BTK's fat. Dahmer's thin. Neither are awesome guys.



Wait, is this about thin people eating fat people and getting fat? Or fat people not eating thin people because they're not fat? 

Either way, human doesn't taste very good. We eat too many Froot Loops.


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## bmann0413 (Feb 25, 2008)

People consider being fat a punishment? But what about the fun you can have while playing with your belly? Or the bond that you and your fatness share? Or the fact that if someone thin gets on your nerves, you can get revenge by sitting on them! Muhahahahahaha!

FATTIES WILL RULE THE WORLD!


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## Sweet Tooth (Feb 25, 2008)

Actually, I just had a conversation with a thin, athletic, ultraconservative friend, and his solution to dealing with people in lockup [ie. for terror suspects, etc.] is to feed them 10K calories a day [through high calorie dense foods] and provide them all the cigarettes and cigars they can smoke. <shrugs> At least one person out there is thinking it, and I'm sure there are more.

He didn't specify fat, but I don't know many people eating like that and NOT gaining weight.


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## Theresa48 (Feb 25, 2008)

When someone is being "punished" it is usually for some wrongdoing, real or imagined, by someone else (parental units can be quite adept at this as well as spouses.) The punishment is generally geared towards changing that person's behavior or making them realize what they did was wrong...and then change their behavior. Some people just like to punish because it makes them (the punisher) feel something...or release something. Feel superior or to release anger/frustration. So, how effective a punishment would making someone become fat be? I think it could be as effective as any punishment IF that person perceives fat as evil, bad, terrible, etc. They would have time to reflect on the error of their ways and plan how they would change. OR...they would decide fat isn't so bad after all and the last laugh would be on the one who chose it as a punishment. (I know of people who have decided beatings weren't so bad and continued their behavior afterwards....and even began to seek after beatings because it gave them needed attention.) What do you think?


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## imfree (Feb 25, 2008)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> What? No.
> 
> Why would weight make people better or worse?
> 
> BTK's fat. Dahmer's thin. Neither are awesome guys.



That's true. My statement was a far-fetched theory,
based on statements I've read about mental changes
that occur when a person is deprived of food. Some
people who are very thin because of calorie
deprivation could be mentally imbalanced. It's, at
best, only a distant possibility.


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## Jes (Feb 25, 2008)

fa_man_stan said:


> If fat is being used as punishment (in whatever scenario...), presumably in the form of immobilization or suffering, that would imply that fat (the weight of fat) is a burden of some sort, or an imprisonment.
> 
> .


Or something disgusting. Or something degrading. Something humiliating. Definitely shameful. Right?


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## lestamore (Feb 26, 2008)

I have known someone who admitted fat-phobia, like they couldn't stand close to fat people on the bus, had panic attacks about interacting with fat people/becoming fat etc.

That might be a spin on it, like: your deepest fears coming true!

I can imagine this in a torture/interogation sense, or even in a revenge sense.

As for punishment, who punishes who in the real world? I guess in a bondage-y sense maybe, but that implies a kind of consensus to me. 

As for the implications, I think it is a personal psychological thing more than reflecting on fatness. Lots of people are afraid of snakes. But we don't blame the snakes, although there may be some kind of instinctual basis for avoiding them.

I guess the question why might fatness be an effective punishment could be answered by the idea that people's appearance can be a big part of their identity, and fatness has a lot stigma. It would certainly be a bit disorienting to realize you aren't who you thought you were. I might even compare the idea of someone thin (to whom it was a big deal) being force fattened for punishment, to being brainwashed into doing things you would never do.

It is definitely an interesting idea.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Feb 26, 2008)

imfree said:


> That's true. My statement was a far-fetched theory,
> based on statements I've read about mental changes
> that occur when a person is deprived of food. Some
> people who are very thin because of calorie
> ...



Those are the effects of externally enforced starvation. 

Starvation does affect the brain, but it doesn't make people psychopaths. 

And, Spanky, Froot Loops are effing disgusting. I find the mention of them offensive.


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## Jes (Feb 26, 2008)

lestamore said:


> I guess the question why might fatness be an effective punishment could be answered by the idea that people's appearance can be a big part of their identity, and fatness has a lot stigma. It would certainly be a bit disorienting to realize you aren't who you thought you were. I might even compare the idea of someone thin (to whom it was a big deal) being force fattened for punishment, to being brainwashed into doing things you would never do.
> .



if you're fat positive, if you don't feel fat automatically equals ugly and shameful, what do you think it would say if you chose to punish (I don't mean educate, I mean punish) someone by making him/her fat?


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## bb19 (Feb 26, 2008)

goldilocks829 said:


> There have been studies where people would rather lose a limb or get cancer (and I'm sure many other horrible things) rather than be fat, so it would probably be a good deterrent for many.
> 
> Good question!



if this is true that that is just a little crazy for me... rather lose a limb? OR Cancer???? What is wrong with people:doh:


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## TallFatSue (Feb 27, 2008)

I don't know about fat being punishment, but during my rebellious teenager phase, my fat was a major control issue with my mother. My mother bombarded me with mixed messages. She was (and is) a terrific cook and baker, and at first she'd get upset if I didn't eat enough ("What's wrong? Don't you like it?"), but 10 minutes later she'd complain that I ate too much ("Did you really need to eat all that?"). Damned if I ate it, damned if I didn't, so I ate what I damned well pleased just to tick off my mother, and flaunted it too. The more my mother harped about my weight, the more I embraced my expanding fat as a symbol of my independence "just to show her." So in a way maybe I used *my* fat to punish *her*.


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## Tina (Feb 27, 2008)

Just wondering where this comes from and why you care?


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## Jes (Feb 27, 2008)

It's something I wonder about, in terms of ... offensive things people say to one another and why.

Years ago, I had a gay male friend tell me how much he hated the tendency for some gay men who, when called out on being gay in negative terms, threw the same thing back at the offender. So...something like
Rude guy: Hey, you ******!
Gay dude: Oh yeah? Well you look pretty fruity in that pink polo shirt, is there something you want to tell us all?

What he felt was being done there was using something (in this case, gayness) as an insult, which he really had a problem with.

And I wonder about that and fatness. Do we do fatness any favors when we also use it as a negative? As an insult?

And that line of thinking came back up when I read a post here at Dims that used fat as a punishment (and again, not in a : this is what it's like to live in my shoes for a day, NOW tell me if you understand me better : way). Used fat as a kind of 'you're so smelly and fat and greasy now!'

And it made me think and wonder if that's something anyone else has churned over in his/her mind.

Does that answer your question, Tina? In terms of why I care...it's a pretty big deal for me, and Dims is a good place to explore that.

and, let me ETA this:
My goal here isn't in starting a witch hunt, or a 'how dare someone post that!' by posting this and discussing another post with a thin, worthless veil. Yes. A post here spurred me to formulate a very vague (haha) post, but it wasn't the only reason. It's more something I've been thinking about a lot. I think about the defensiveness that causes someone to throw back an insult after one is thrown first...and I don't know that I'm always good at stepping past that, myself, but I also know I try hard not to ridicule the same thing already being insulted, if that makes sense. I think David (gay friend) really clarified that thought process for me, years ago. I wonder if other people struggle with the same thing, and what the implications are for seeing fat as something awful enough to be used as a punishment in a place where, ostensibily, we dont' think fat is awful. How is that different than the average fat-hating place, in other words?


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## stefanie (Feb 27, 2008)

H, Jes: good question.

I can see it as a "punishment" in a non-consensual story (where the weight gain is nonconsensual.) I think in writing there is a critical difference between what the *writer* thinks about fat (and the writer might think it's pretty nice), versus what her *character* thinks about fat. They aren't necessarily the same.

As an example, take a random story idea. (This is fiction I'm talking about, NOT anything real-life, or in any way desirable in real life. Just saying.) A man has a rival for a girl's affection, a young, "average"-sized boyfriend. The girl doesn't love the man; never will. Let's say she finds fatter guys unattractive, and the man knows this. The jealous man is a crafty and vengeful type who wants to poison the well, i.e. "If you won't have me, I'll mess up your boyfriend so you won't want him, either." So he kidnaps the boyfriend for six months or so, fattens him up, turns him loose much fatter. How it works out with the couple, who knows? It's just an idea.

But the point is, yes, the fat is seen as bad by all the characters involved - not so much because fat is bad per se, but because the revenge plot demands that the girl doesn't like it. (A twist at the end would make the girl ecstatic with the change, after a few nights in bed with her boyfriend.) If the girl liked fat from the start, no story.

The creepiness and horror of it would come in with the abuse of the boyfriend, the kidnapping, the loss of the boyfriend's body autonomy and integrity. 

*Coyote Wild*, good point about conflict in fiction. Non-consensual situations definitely serve as fertile breeding grounds for conflict, as well as action, possibility of rescue, heightened emotional states, etc.

A subset of this theme comes about IMO when people sometimes see some really obnoxious (and thin) anti-fat person on the TV, yattering on about how ALL U FATTIEZ R GOING 2 DIEEE!!1! It's very tempting to think, I'd like to infect you with the fat virus, or whatever, just to let you see what it's like. Or have them wake up the next morning 150 lbs heavier. Is that an anti-fat thought? Probably, but it's hard not to get affected by these negative social attitudes, hard as you may try.


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## Jes (Feb 27, 2008)

stefanie said:


> So he kidnaps the boyfriend for six months or so, fattens him up, turns him loose much fatter. How it works out with the couple, who knows? It's just an idea.
> 
> .



Yes. I think not internalizing those horrible messages is very, very hard. I agree with you there, and I know I have come flush up against it, myself.

A question: How does your character fatten up the BF? Is it a kind of ...Hansel and Gretel fattening (with that damned chicken bone finger!) and very little negative commentary, or is there a lot of negative commentary? From the fattener, not the BF, who we can assume isn't at all happy becoming fat (and you're smart to bring up the 2 motivations, there), I mean. If fat is smelly and dirty, let's say, would that change your opinion about the story you were reading, or not? And I'm not asking with any prejudice, there. I'm genuinely curious as to what people think, and how they integrate a description like that with a more benign one.


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## stefanie (Feb 27, 2008)

Jes said:


> Yes. I think not internalizing those horrible messages is very, very hard. I agree with you there, and I know I have come flush up against it, myself.
> 
> A question: How does your character fatten up the BF?



LOL, I don't know, this was just an idea. It would depend on a lot of things, like when the story was set (early 21st c? late 19th c? I like the latter, as it was a lot easier for people to "disappear" then.) Realistic, magical realism, Jules-Verne-ish sci-fi (if late 19th c.)? 

I will admit that I'm personally uncomfortable with this kind of story, because I do NOT want to be seen as either "endorsing" non-con or supporting the "fat is disgusting" attitude. However, I do have the view that fiction and real-life are (should be) very separate, and that it's possible to go very wild in fiction with what one would never do, or support, in real life. But as far as "fat as punishment:" vengeance for some slight (whether it be a perceived personal injury, or some fat-phobe talking trash) seems a powerful motivation for wanting to "punish" someone with something that you or I might not see as punishment, but the "punishee" might. If I understand you properly, that is ...



> From the fattener, not the BF, who we can assume isn't at all happy becoming fat ...



Well, that's where it gets tricky. Because I think that in a story which is more than simply a dom/sub erotic turn-on (nothing wrong with that; I just like to complicate things), the psychology would get complex. Obviously someone who's kidnapped and confined is going to be traumatized, angry, terrified. Minimizing this would be IMO dishonest. At the same time, there *is* such a thing as "Stockholm syndrome," and what would add to the horror of the situation is that he might actually come to find certain aspects of the whole process rather pleasurable.



> If fat is smelly and dirty, let's say, would that change your opinion about the story you were reading, or not?



Well, yes it would, and it's a good point. A generally foul smell is an objective turn-off to many people. But in reality fat is neither smelly nor dirty, and in a "punishment/ vengeance" scenario, I don't think it's necessary to load the fatness aspect down with negative qualities. I like the idea of a character at first hating what's happening (which if he's mentally "normal," he objectively *should*), while at the same time deriving pleasure from it, and then perhaps even coming to crave it. 

Just a thought - what kind of "offenses" do you see as "deserving" fat-as-punishment?


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## ClashCityRocker (Feb 27, 2008)

Spanky said:


> Ack, I am thinking too much, and creatively, mind you.
> 
> You'd be a great Literature/Creative Writing teacher. :bow:
> 
> Just sayin'......Teech.



i agree...can i go to the bathroom?


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## Tina (Feb 27, 2008)

Jes said:


> Does that answer your question, Tina? In terms of why I care...it's a pretty big deal for me, and Dims is a good place to explore that.


I think so. I was wondering where you were coming from, and going, with the question. Part of it is that I haven't been sure if you're talking about some of the stories where a person is 'magically' made to be fat or force fed to fatness as a punishment. Or if you really are more accurately meaning epithet in place of punishment. A good deal of my curiosity has to do with not having seen this here, except from newbies who hate themselves (which seems to be different from what you are referring to) and knowing there are likely stories in the Library dealing with that (I rarely venture into the library. Guess I'm still not clear on whether you mean it in the epithet sense or not, but I don't think it's okay. For one thing, if you (the general "you") claim to love and accept yourself, yet you shoot back a fat-based insult at someone who has insulted your own fatness, that basically shows that there is little if any progress in the positive self-perception arena.


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## Fascinita (Feb 27, 2008)

TallFatSue said:


> My mother bombarded me with mixed messages.



Ditto my mother, Sue. We went through lean times as a family, when there wasn't enough to eat. It was always feast (relatively speaking) or famine for us. My mother was a great cook, and when we could afford it she'd cook up delicious meals for us, always encouraging us to eat, particularly when I was very young. When I started to gain weight, in my early teens, my mother's feasts continued, but now she started nagging me about weight. To be fair, it was not just my mom, but my entire extended family who nagged me about gaining weight. Also there was a lot of joking at my expense, and humiliation. At some point, I just decided I'd had enough of putting up with them and decided to be fine with being chubby.

There were times when I thought my mom particularly was playing some kind of mind game with me, putting rich foods in front of me and encouraging me to take seconds and thirds, only for my entire family to harp on me about the fat "issue." I even thought that, because my mother never showed signs of particularly liking me as a whole, she might be fatterning me up as a way of showing my family how worthless I was. But I don't think I ever saw fat as punishment, per say.



Jes said:


> And it made me think and wonder if that's something anyone else has churned over in his/her mind.



Jes, absolutely I've wondered about it. When I first came to Dimensions, I envisioned that it would be a wonderful place where fat was accepted and liked in a way that redefined and broadened the meaning of "beauty." But it's my impression, since finding my way here, that things are not that simple. There is a lot of negative feeling about fat that I find expressed here. That's been surprising to me. I suppose it's not a perfect world, so why should Dimensions be perfect? On the other hand, I've seen any number of people express feelings of wanting to assert control over (particularly, though not exclusively) women's bodies, as in scenarios where women who lose weight fail to turn on their SOs anymore, and the SO wishes that their wife/GF would go back to being fat. I understand that as an issue of establishing control over bodies: if the body remains fat, it remains within paremeters that the SO feels secure with. Often, this is framed as an issue of attraction, but I wonder if attraction in these cases is not in direct proportion to the amount of control one partner feels they can assert over the other's body. I'm not saying I have my mind made up on this issue, one way or the other. I'm only saying that the repeated patterns I see in these stories raise these questions and more for me.

The other thing I see is that in several of the fantasies/fictions that are posted on Dimensions, there is an element at times of fat and weight gain being portrayed as something negative, to be avoided. A typical story might be of a woman who starts off thin and is terrified of gaining weight but, through some accident or trick, she goes on to gain substantial amounts of weight. There is an element, I think, of terror, or of women having something inflicted on them, in these stories. Of course, many of these stories take an unexpected turn and end with depictions of people who come to find that they enjoy eating and being fat. Other stories exploit that sense of something undesirable being visited onto people, taking into the realm of violence or disgust. This latter type tends to extend the vague sense of terror that the (often, but not always) female protagonists feel at getting fat and really turn up the volume on it, to the point where the protagonists may end up portrayed as completely out of control, perhaps with greasy hair and lying in her own filth. So I see these stories as existing on a spectrum, from mild to grotesque... but basically all part of a continuum that hinges on equating fat with a kind of horror.

On another level, I have to wonder how many of these stories are motivated by exposure to current attitudes about fat, so that the stories are a kind of attempt at working out conflicted feelings of attraction to and simultaneously repulsion toward fat. Another possibility is that the worst of these stories, the one where the heroine ends up in a pool of her own filth--as opposed to the heroine that decides to accept herself and goes to Lane Bryant to buy a nice new wardrobe--are expressing a generalized streak of violence (and violence against women in particular?) that seems to throb so vigorously just under the skin of our culture. In our worst moments, we seem to have a thing for subjugating people, for humiliating them and getting them to do as we say. Abu Ghraib, anyone?


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## Aireman (Feb 27, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> What do I think of it as "punishment"? I would like to paint some sweet, rosy picture of myself right now. However, I feel compelled to admit GREAT JOY and amusement when I see people that have always been thin....as in the kind that eat whatever they want and never gain an ounce, suddenly start gaining weight. Most of them FREAK so bad...start going on about dieting and exercising... meanwhile I am LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT~!
> 
> MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA Gawd it's good!!!!!!!!
> 
> What does it all mean? Does this make me a bad person or something?



Not at all! I love that senario. Revenge is a dish best served cold. BUHUHUHUHUAAAAAHAHAHA!

Looking forward to my class reunion. *evil evil grin*

And I ain't saying which one ;-P


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## Jes (Feb 27, 2008)

Tina said:


> I think so. I was wondering where you were coming from, and going, with the question. Part of it is that I haven't been sure if you're talking about some of the stories where a person is 'magically' made to be fat or force fed to fatness as a punishment. Or if you really are more accurately meaning epithet in place of punishment. A good deal of my curiosity has to do with not having seen this here, except from newbies who hate themselves (which seems to be different from what you are referring to) and knowing there are likely stories in the Library dealing with that (I rarely venture into the library. Guess I'm still not clear on whether you mean it in the epithet sense or not, but I don't think it's okay. For one thing, if you (the general "you") claim to love and accept yourself, yet you shoot back a fat-based insult at someone who has insulted your own fatness, that basically shows that there is little if any progress in the positive self-perception arena.


Well, Tina, my question was intentionally vague b/c I almost wanted to elicit... I don't know, gut reactions, first thoughts, whatever, without too much front-loaded mediation. How does your gut respond, in other words.

But looking at the question you pose above, I'm not sure I see these things as mutually exclusive. Why insist on false dichotomies I say, haha. 

What if you claim to love and accept fat, but then describe it in really horrible ways and make it into a punishment, do you then believe that isn't love? Isn't ... loving and accepting fat, in general? Does it necessarily mean that perhaps one of the things you like about fat is that it does have the potential to be humiliating? I may be reaching, there. I may also not be. I'm curious as to how people unpack these ideas.


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## Jes (Feb 27, 2008)

Aireman said:


> Not at all! I love that senario. Revenge is a dish best served cold. BUHUHUHUHUAAAAAHAHAHA!
> 
> Looking forward to my class reunion. *evil evil grin*
> 
> And I ain't saying which one ;-P



yes, but what are you avenging?


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## Ned Sonntag (Feb 27, 2008)

Okay... in the seminal cartoon PIGS IS PIGS, what seemed to be The Scientist's motivation? Simple research, or bestio-pederasty?:batting:


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## Jes (Feb 27, 2008)

Ned Sonntag said:


> Okay... in the seminal cartoon PIGS IS PIGS, what seemed to be The Scientist's motivation? Simple research, or bestio-pederasty?:batting:



well, i'm still trying to discuss the actual topic that interests me, ned, so the cartoons will have to wait. Fasc, I think you're really hitting on what I was trying to flesh out--I thank you for that. Very well delineated thinkin'. And something in what you wrote, the sense of 'liking' and what that MEANS (and how there can be 2 meanings to that which people may not realize) makes me think of a post of mine from a few weeks ago. This sense of ... 2 things going on that SEEM from the outside, as if they're the same thing but which are 2 very, very different things. The whole issue of self esteem. And on what we base self esteem. I see mighty strong parallels. You've given me good food for thought. But I'm gonna eat your brain crackers in bed and talk atcha tomorrow.


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## stefanie (Feb 28, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> The other thing I see is that in several of the fantasies/fictions that are posted on Dimensions, there is an element at times of fat and weight gain being portrayed as something negative, to be avoided. A typical story might be of a woman who starts off thin and is terrified of gaining weight but, through some accident or trick, she goes on to gain substantial amounts of weight. There is an element, I think, of terror, or of women having something inflicted on them, in these stories.



I agree - that is at bottom a horror story, whether it's a man or a woman. 

One "mainstream" (well, more or less) example is the horror movie _Slither_, with several body-inflation / fat as horror images that are very powerful and visceral, almost like something out of Hieronymus Bosch, if he had used fat as a horror trope (which he didn't, usually.) But it's the same kind of powerful grotesque image, especially the one where the Boss Alien is *absorbing* all these people into himself, and part of the absorption process is that they become large (or at least, there are mostly large bodies shown as being sucked into the Boss Alien's body.)



> Of course, many of these stories take an unexpected turn and end with depictions of people who come to find that they enjoy eating and being fat.



It's almost like it's a requirement for non-con stories of many kinds, the "stockholm syndrome" effect.



> Other stories exploit that sense of something undesirable being visited onto people, taking into the realm of violence or disgust.



Disgust and sexuality ride neck to neck in a lot of fiction, not just weight-gain stories. Some of it is hatred of fat, I'll agree. Some of it is simply that fat is seen as something primordial, something closer to nature, as it were. This goes back to our long distant past, when the faces of the goddesses were concealed, yet their bodies were huge, swollen. And some of it is that (according to French psychoanalyst and cultural anthropologist Clothilde Rapaille, in his recent book _The Culture Code_), to many Americans, sex = violence; attractiveness = danger.


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## Tina (Feb 28, 2008)

Jes said:


> Well, Tina, my question was intentionally vague b/c I almost wanted to elicit... I don't know, gut reactions, first thoughts, whatever, without too much front-loaded mediation. How does your gut respond, in other words.
> 
> But looking at the question you pose above, I'm not sure I see these things as mutually exclusive. Why insist on false dichotomies I say, haha.
> 
> What if you claim to love and accept fat, but then describe it in really horrible ways and make it into a punishment, do you then believe that isn't love? Isn't ... loving and accepting fat, in general? Does it necessarily mean that perhaps one of the things you like about fat is that it does have the potential to be humiliating? I may be reaching, there. I may also not be. I'm curious as to how people unpack these ideas.


I think that wherever we go there will be the yin and the yang. They say love and hate is just opposite sides of the same coin. Not sure I totally agree with that, but I do think that some people have different ways of... admiring. I sure don't like the ways some may manifest themselves, which is why I generally avoid certain forums. I think we're all going to see and define those things according to our own experiences and relative opinions on what proper expressions of love, and even punishment, may be. Eh.


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## Frankhw (Feb 28, 2008)

A fresh story in the Library under Recent additions *Educating Fluer* is an example of an _attempt_ at useing fat as punishment. Have a look if your curious.


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## Aireman (Feb 28, 2008)

Jes said:


> yes, but what are you avenging?



Ummm *shrugs* oh the usual, years of abuse and/or being ignored because I was "fat".


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## exile in thighville (Feb 28, 2008)

Jes said:


> Or something disgusting. Or something degrading. Something humiliating. Definitely shameful. Right?



To play devil's advocate, you could say it's at best, a fearsome taboo. The problem is, if you're talking about wg stories, they're made for people who, on a sexual level at least, enjoy fat. It's like saying it's disgusting or shameful for a guy to be castrated and forced to be feminized in a fantasy story...whoever has sought out this story is likely aroused by the possibility. I have a problem with not the vagueness of the question, but not knowing which box to apply it to, fantasy or reality. The two have drastically different implications about the reader and the intent.



Jes said:


> if you're fat positive, if you don't feel fat automatically equals ugly and shameful, what do you think it would say if you chose to punish (I don't mean educate, I mean punish) someone by making him/her fat?



This delves into the complications of dominant/submissive territory, where a section of people will argue the beauty of enduring punishment and suffering and not cop to anything disgusting about it, even if they spank their fat submissive and call her "disgusting"!


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## lestamore (Feb 28, 2008)

Jes said:


> if you're fat positive, if you don't feel fat automatically equals ugly and shameful, what do you think it would say if you chose to punish (I don't mean educate, I mean punish) someone by making him/her fat?



I don't think it would say much about fatness. I think that it would be more about 'changeing' them than about their body. The fatness could be correctional even as a punishment. But to punish someone by turning them into someone they don't recognize would be disorienting and emotional. I would Intense!

I guess I would consider it similar for a happy fat person to be turned tiny. Although the emotions there would maybe be a bit different. If someone took my boobs away as punishment though, I would be devastated. I someone made me 6'2 I wouldn't know what to do with myself. (Starting out at 5').


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## Jes (Feb 28, 2008)

Yes, but there are lots of ways of changing someone; I'm interested in just one of those ways.


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## exile in thighville (Feb 28, 2008)

lestamore said:


> I don't think it would say much about fatness. I think that it would be more about 'changeing' them than about their body. The fatness could be correctional even as a punishment. But to punish someone by turning them into someone they don't recognize would be disorienting and emotional. Intense!



but what if the fat isn't the distinct turn-on? what if it's the act of punishment itself?


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## Dr. P Marshall (Feb 29, 2008)

That's what you people get for making me think.

I think the insult for an insult situation (I mean actual insults meant to hurt, not name calling for pleasure) does betray a level of, at least, some ambivalence about fat. The fiction, well, I think that's a different set of issues. I'm not entirely sure that attitudes about fat are all that are going on in those stories. I think with the extreme weight gain stories in general control or the loss of it seems to be a large part of the turn on. Whether the character is forced to gain weight and therefore loses control of their situation, or whether they give in to their desires on their own and eat continuously (and I have seen both types of stories in the library), it seems it's the loss of control that is the primary focus. Now, it's possible that people who enjoy those stories enjoy that element because they see something hedonistic and decadent about fat in general, but they might have fantasies relating mostly to control issues, and these stories represent the extreme. (And I think when it comes to fantasies, most do seem very extreme when written down or spoken aloud. All fantasies, not just weight related ones. And by both genders.) That's just a theory, though, that I'm basing on some of the stories I've read. The same would go for punishment as the turn on.

Of course, it's also possible that an author could write something that they themselves just think is an interesting idea and want to explore a topic that may not put fat in general in the best light IN THAT STORY, but that doesn't reflect the overall views of the author. For example, I know there is a story in the library about a woman who fattens men to immobility and then leaves them. I love fat men and think they are wonderful, but the idea of a woman tricking and manipulating a man until he loses all control of his choices and then ultimately his own mobility is chilling. I don't think it's a contradiction for me to see it that way. The manipulation and abandonment alone make it terrifying on a psychological level. Some people may find that exciting, I do not. But the story would work for both of us as readers. I still think it's a surprisingly powerful and chilling story and as pure entertainment a good read, even if I don't get excited by the idea of it sexually. I also don't see fat as a punishment or a horrible circumstance, but as it's brought about in THAT story I do find it horrible. Not the fat itself, the manipulation and control. 

And I'm going to theorize in a direction I'm sure will get me in trouble, but here goes. Even the most healthy relationship has a certain degree of possessiveness to it. You want your loved one to be yours. Not everyone's, yours. (in general, I'm not talking about open relationships) So, is it possible that issues of control and dominance represent the darkest reaches of that aspect of love and relationships? And what could make someone belong to you more than if they give over all control, even their very will in a way, and change their body to suit you? Again, I'm talking about FANTASY. Sometimes thinking about someone in the abstract is very different from being confronted with the reality of that person. I'll use a slightly off topic example. What if a man fantasizes about his girlfriend gaining 200 pounds. But when she actually gains 100 pounds, she knows she would no longer be happy if she gained any more weight. I think anyone worth knowing (FA or FFA) wouldn't even have to think about it - their partner's happiness should come first. But it doesn't mean some don't fantasize about it anyway. It also doesn't mean they don't love their partner or that they aren't happy with their partner. 

Outside of fantasy, I don't think an F/FA admitting that they wished their partner would stay fat is necessarily a control issue. It's often a matter of being attracted to a fat person and when they are no longer a fat person, your level of attraction will change. It won't necessarily go away entirely, but it will change. To lament that doesn't mean you love them less or want to control them. Now, if someone wanted to trick someone into staying fat, or wanted to leave the person over their weight, that's another issue altogether, but if a partner's weight loss is something you intend to accept, but you're struggling with it, I don't think that's about controlling them at all.


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## stefanie (Feb 29, 2008)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> That's what you people get for making me think.
> 
> I think the insult for an insult situation (I mean actual insults meant to hurt, not name calling for pleasure) does betray a level of, at least, some ambivalence about fat.



One odd thing about insults is that if you are "part of the group," you get to offer the insult. Thus you will hear people of all types of groups saying some pretty outrageous things to each other - things that could be construed as actual abuse or "hate speech" if someone outside the group said it to them. I guess this could apply to fatness too?



> The fiction, well, I think that's a different set of issues. I'm not entirely sure that attitudes about fat are all that are going on in those stories. I think with the extreme weight gain stories in general control or the loss of it seems to be a large part of the turn on.



Especially if the character being forced to gain the weight is one who "normally" would be seen as having a lot of power, influence, normally a fair amount of control. Perhaps that's why you see male-written stories about women gaining weight. Women so closely identify thinness with 'being in control.' And many men identify women's sexual attractiveness with women having "control" over them. Also, there's the cultural "meme" of fat being base, physical, gross, animalistic. So a forced-fattening story (man forcing woman) is in a sense "forcing" the woman to come down "to his level," i.e. to one that is physical and "animalistic." 

From the standpoint of a man getting fattened, it also probably has the emotional resonance of the man losing power, losing authority, becoming an "object" rather than autonomous. 



> (And I think when it comes to fantasies, most do seem very extreme when written down or spoken aloud. All fantasies, not just weight related ones. And by both genders.) That's just a theory, though, that I'm basing on some of the stories I've read. The same would go for punishment as the turn on.



Good point - fantasies *and* fiction are extreme. They go places most of us wouldn't dream, or dare, in real life (good!) 



> Of course, it's also possible that an author could write something that they themselves just think is an interesting idea and want to explore a topic that may not put fat in general in the best light IN THAT STORY, but that doesn't reflect the overall views of the author.



I feel that way, too. 



> I also don't see fat as a punishment or a horrible circumstance, but as it's brought about in THAT story I do find it horrible. Not the fat itself, the manipulation and control.



I don't see all fat-related writing as *necessarily* having to be fat-positive. When it comes to something so demonized, it's almost certain that most writers are going to have a lot of ambiguities, ambivalencies, conflicts. Writing is one way to work those out - and sometimes the result is not always nice. 



> And I'm going to theorize in a direction I'm sure will get me in trouble, but here goes. Even the most healthy relationship has a certain degree of possessiveness to it. ... So, is it possible that issues of control and dominance represent the darkest reaches of that aspect of love and relationships?



I'm pretty much a Jungian when it comes to psychological issues, and one big Jungian concept is that of the "shadow." It doesn't do any good to stuff your "shadow" down, pretend it doesn't exist. It just crops up elsewhere. Sex is something that has a huge "shadow" component. We would like it to be all flowers in the sunshine, but it's not always. Better to work these things out in fantasy, IMO, than on real people.

Also, as I said above, there are lots of twisted emotions tied up with fatness, with control, with ideas like the overpowering male getting humiliated and brought down, or the overpowering sexually dominant (and conventionally attractive) woman getting "brought down" accordingly. We could list them, on and on. 

So when fat and sex and issues of control/power meet, the results are sometimes dark - but exploring the darkness is what people do, with myth and fiction and art.


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## liz (di-va) (Feb 29, 2008)

Okay, I gotta be honest...I don't have a context for answering this question as such; in fact, I feel weird every time I see the subject line. Fat just is. No "punish." (Tyra Banks aside, the only way I guess I can understand this is the walk-a-mile-in-my-shoes scenario.)

What I can say is that I am with your gay friend; throwing back an "oh yeah, well you're fat too" insult never feels right to me...I've never done it, hope I never would. I'm _not_ gonna tacitly agree with some fuckhead that fat is bad by saying the same thing back at them or using fat as an insult in turn. Always seems like the crucially wrong reaction/wrong, devolving, direction to go in.


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## Fascinita (Mar 1, 2008)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Outside of fantasy, I don't think an F/FA admitting that they wished their partner would stay fat is necessarily a control issue. It's often a matter of being attracted to a fat person and when they are no longer a fat person, your level of attraction will change. It won't necessarily go away entirely, but it will change. To lament that doesn't mean you love them less or want to control them. Now, if someone wanted to trick someone into staying fat, or wanted to leave the person over their weight, that's another issue altogether, but if a partner's weight loss is something you intend to accept, but you're struggling with it, I don't think that's about controlling them at all.



What strikes me is that the bulk of the "first person testimonials" about (overwhelmingly female) partners (wives) wanting to lose weight after having gained present a scenario of a woman starting out thin, then growing fatter, then wanting to lose. Often the situation is presented as the couple having come to some agreement that the thin woman will gain when her new hubby explains how important it is to him, later changing her mind and wanting to be thin again, for any number of reasons; another scenario is that she has always been thin, but once they get together and she finds out that he "wouldn't mind her gaining" (often explicitly coded this way, to stand for "oh, boy, I'd love it if you gained a ton!," by men shy of being rebuffed if their SOs knew the full extent of their FAness), she begins to eat more and more until she finds she has grown too fat for her own comfort, and again expresses a desire or plan to be thinner. 

What's always been interesting to me is the play between thin and fat that's presented in these testimonials on the boards. I never _feel_ like these stories speak to women like me--women who have been fat most of our adult lives. At the same time, most of the fat women I know have "always" been some variant of fat, or have been chubby or robust or however you want to say it going back into their teens. The number of fat women I know who started off as relatively thin women is dwarfed by the number of the other type--the type who's more or less always been some variant of fat.

So there is a kind of disconnect there, in terms of the reality that I'm familiar with, and the sheer persistence of this other story that seems to be most commonly expressed by people here who are upset by their started-off-thin-then-got-fat-now-wants-to-be-thin-again partner.

Stefanie's points about the psychology of wanting to take power away from a thin partner--to bring them down to size by fattening them up--are provocative.

If we could apply that analysis to the prototypical "started-off-thin-then-got-fat-now-wants-to-be-thin-again" story, it certainly could be understood as a story of maintaining control over a partner's body, rather than one of waning attractiveness. The marked, persistent emphasis on the thinness of the one partner _at the start_ (which to me seems to chafe against my own experience with longstanding adult fatness) suggests that there is something more than an organic waning of attraction in the face of changing bodies. You got together with a thin partner in the first place, but now can't be attracted to them unless they are fat?

After I read these accounts, I am always left wondering why all the FAs are hooking up with thin women that they hope to fatten later. It would do _me_ a world more good if more people would love girls who were fat from the start and were comfortable staying that way.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Mar 1, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> What strikes me is that the bulk of the "first person testimonials" about (overwhelmingly female) partners (wives) wanting to lose weight after having gained present a scenario of a woman starting out thin, then growing fatter, then wanting to lose....



I am referencing your entire post, but I took up so much space with my last one, I'm trying to conserve. 

That is a very different scenario than I was thinking about when I posted. I was thinking of a couple of FAs on here who had posted about marrying a BBW and then she had WLS and their own struggles with coming to terms with it. What you are talking about does seem a lot more like controlling a person's body and maybe even at its darkest, seeing the weight gain as being done "for them". Which goes back to my point about the ultimate form of control being someone changing their body to please their spouse. And, to me, that is not really an FA at all. That is a control freak and quite possibly someone who doesn't even have a positive outlook on fat at all. I hope I don't get in trouble when I say this, but I often question the sincerity of the thin-to-fat-to thin wife posts. I have seen them too and for some reason they always strike me as a fantasy thrown out onto the boards rather than something real. Again, I do not mean to say that is always the case, or to accuse anyone of anything, but there is always something about those posts that seems a little too similar and a little too implausible. Not only do I find it odd that a lot of FAs are marrying thin women, or that a lot of them come here to post about this particular aspect of their life, but also that the wife seems to always be happy at first with gaining weight, then suddenly wants to go all the way back to her original size. I'm sure some of them are sincere, but I always suspect maybe some of them are not. Much like the "gainers" that appear on the Weight Board every so often who are not in fact the people they claim to be either.


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## KuroBara (Mar 1, 2008)

Jes said:


> if you're fat positive, if you don't feel fat automatically equals ugly and shameful, what do you think it would say if you chose to punish (I don't mean educate, I mean punish) someone by making him/her fat?


 
Like all punishment, it would only work if the offender is actually affected by the punishment. But the "fat punishment" may have an unintended side effect: the person may love it. At the start he or she may feel bad because of the propaganda they have been bombarded by from the media, friends, family and their own feelings, but what if the end effect is a love of being fat? 

This puts me in the mind of habitual criminals, who I theorize must love prison because they keep going back. A deterrent will only work if it makes the criminal think negatively about the crime committed. If you are trying to build Street-Cred, jail won't be so effective. 

Along the lines of this question, if you start by hating fat, but discover you love being soft and jiggly, it was not an effective punishment. Of course, if you hate fat from the start, and continue to hate being fat, this is a great punishment. Not only physical punishment, since obesity can be a contributing factor to a variety of health problems (not THE factor, just contributing), but emotional and social punishment as well. Very effective.


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## Jes (Mar 2, 2008)

liz (di-va) said:


> Okay, I gotta be honest...I don't have a context for answering this question as such; in fact, I feel weird every time I see the subject line. Fat just is. No "punish." (Tyra Banks aside, the only way I guess I can understand this is the walk-a-mile-in-my-shoes scenario.)
> 
> .



People have been having some interesting discussions and I thank you b/c I've enjoyed thinking about this issue in ways I couldn't have before recent posts were made. I think for me, it boils down to the ways fatness is described. It's not just an 'is,' in the cases I'm thinking of. It's a punishment. It's a greasy, messy, smelly punishment. And I think those posters who have talked to me about ambivalence as it relates to fatness, and to liking fatness, and the difference between seeing fat in a fantasy and in real life (in this case, I'd hope people aren't seeing fat as greasy, messy and smelly, certainly) are all valuable points of view. As I was recently saying to someone via very interesting PMs, the sexual side of a lot of this is beyond me. NOT because I think it's wrong or bad but because I'm not an FA. I'm just fat. It's a different headspace and i"m glad those people who can better tap into some of this fat fantasy stuff than I can took the time to explain it to me. That's one of the angles I was missing. So thank you ladies for your very smart commentary!


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## Roflcopter (Mar 4, 2008)

What happened? Did Jes close the thread?

I think there is an entirely different angle here being missed, and that's the health issue.

Starvation has historically been used as a punishement, and never for appearance-related reasons. The punishment was that you were putting somebody in an unpleasant, unhealthy state. A society that used starvation as a punishment never did so because it was anti-thin.

So, similarly, fattening could be used the same way without "society saying something" about fatness. I think it never happens for practical reasons. A) It requires much more effort on the part of the captor and B) it takes longer to work. No matter their initial size, you can starve somebody pretty quick.


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## Fascinita (Mar 4, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> Starvation has historically been used as a punishement, and never for appearance-related reasons. The punishment was that you were putting somebody in an unpleasant, unhealthy state. A society that used starvation as a punishment never did so because it was anti-thin.




Hey copter, Can you cite some examples of this? Other than sending kids to bed without dinner, I can't think of any myself.


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## liz (di-va) (Mar 5, 2008)

Jes said:


> Well, Tina, my question was intentionally vague b/c I almost wanted to elicit... I don't know, gut reactions, first thoughts, whatever, without too much front-loaded mediation. How does your gut respond, in other words.



That's why/how I responded, despite the fact that I knew I didn't have much to say.


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## Jes (Mar 5, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> What happened? Did Jes close the thread?
> 
> .



was the thread closed? hmmn. i must have missed it if that was the case. I don't have the power to close anything. would that I had that kind of power.


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## Jes (Mar 5, 2008)

Roflcopter said:


> What happened? Did Jes close the thread?
> 
> I think there is an entirely different angle here being missed, and that's the health issue.
> 
> ...


You're positing the idea that fat is unpleasant/unhealthy, then? I'm not arguing with you at all, by the way, just trying to better understand your reply. And yes, starving is horrible torture. I've been to several torture museums (hello?!) that were prisons at one time. One I'm thinking of had an area where inmates were starved to death, and their cells were built directly over a bakery 1 flight down.


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## Tina (Mar 5, 2008)

This thread has not been closed. I'm guessing the poster made that assumption since there weren't any posts for a little while. 

Roflcopter, if a thread is closed, it has an icon of a lock on it.


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## altered states (Mar 7, 2008)

Jes said:


> As I was recently saying to someone via very interesting PMs, the sexual side of a lot of this is beyond me. NOT because I think it's wrong or bad but because I'm not an FA. I'm just fat. It's a different headspace and i"m glad those people who can better tap into some of this fat fantasy stuff than I can took the time to explain it to me.



I think a lot of FA fantasies have elements of sadism. I'm not just talking about feeder fantasies (though obviously those qualify), but many others I've seen here in the forums, on paysites, and in FA fiction that are very common: the subject getting stuck somewhere (especially in a public place), or getting easily tired or winded, or being frustrated not being able to fit into clothes, eating "out of control", etc. Granted, compared to other, harsher fantasies I've seen here and elsewhere, these are relatively mild. But they do involve some kind of punishment - of an emotional kind, but wrought from the physical experience of being already fat, or weight gain. 

All that said, in non-FA male-centered porn there are strong elements of punishment. I think it's hardwired into the male psyche, and FAs just manifest it their own way.

Also, I think you were too quick in dismissing Pigs is Pigs just because it's a cartoon. It's probably the most seminal piece of FA/feeder fantasy fodder in existence, and it's clearly from a sadistic angle.


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## superodalisque (Mar 7, 2008)

WOW!!! what a great question. they wouldn't let me rep you again right now. i will resond but this one will take some real thinking. fantastic!


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## Jes (Mar 7, 2008)

who is this evil 'THEY', Super? They're out to get me. Curses! 
But thanks. That's a great compliment, coming from the original brilliant question asker herself!

After the back and forth of it, and some answers that were fully developed and addressed issues I wouldn't have come to on my own, I think I've finally formulated my own opinion on the matter. And that's why I asked and that's why I care. And thanks to all who helped.


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