# A challenge to Conrad.



## Vince (Mar 13, 2006)

Well, Conrad, it wasn't long ago that you asked for suggestions re making things better for the fat people. There have been a few intelligent people who have suggested changes but I doubt anyone listened. Fat people have health concerns. No one can deny this. Many who post on this board or who are active in size acceptance often hide or diminish their health problems. Most would love to believe that one can be supersized and healthy. Doctors would wonder for how long. Eventually huge size and weight will take its toll on fat people. If you are ever lying down beside a really large person then listen to them breathe. They need a lot of oxygen to supply that mass and therefore have to breathe at a more rapid rate than thinner people. 

I well remember when one supersized activist asked me to get a bag of pills from the bathroom for her. Well, I looked where she told me and fetched a brown bag with perhaps 20 different boxes of various pills inside it. She had a look and couldn't find what she was looking for and realized I had brought the wrong bag! There were two bags of pills that she needed. I mean, I use the occasional headache tablet and that is all. Maybe a couple of those pills a month. That is it. When I see so-called healthy fat women hiding the fact that they have diabetes and high blood pressure then I know they are trying to appear that they, too, can be large and healthy. In most cases that is a lie. Sooner rather than later really large people will have several health issues. They already have fitness and mobility issues. 

If what I say is true then why haven't the fat members of this board an opportunity to discuss the various issues concerning weightloss, fitness and health? In the thread "Losing Weight" there is healthy debate about this very issue. Many feel they need a place where they can discuss these issues. You have kindly provided a WLS forum even though you are personally against it in most cases. I feel the time has come for fat acceptance to show some maturity and recognize that it is not a sin to want to be healthy and change body composition. Those who do not want to read such discussions need not frequent that forum. 

I am not telling you how to run your site. I think you have done a very somewhat thankless job in providing the site and the resources that go along with it. I just think it is time to consider some of the policies that should have been debated in NAAFA but for some reason remained the foundation basis of the organization.

There are many who have beliefs about a life after death. Those hopes are some of the forces that see many believing in various religions. However, to believe in some of the fat acceptance dogma is not a choice about fantasy and hope. Those beliefs can have very bad consquences for fat people. Ruby is an example of what I am talking about. She used to weigh over 100 pounds more than she does now. Well, assuming she still is about the same weight as she was in 2000 when I was at your home. Tina and others have lost some weight and are more mobile and healthy as a result. I just cannot see why we as friends of fat people cannot assist them in every way we can. My expertise is exercise and I would be glad to assist fat people. Others arrive here from time to time with other things they can contribute. I think we can forge ahead and make things better for fat people. To suggest that there is little or nothing that can be done if one is large is plainly false. As fat people get larger they have even less options about what they can do to change their fitness and health levels. 

If you have read the WLS board then I believe that CC's example is a warning call to all of us. I do not like to read how much she is suffering and how awful her life is to her. We have to do something and not perpetuate lies and other nonsense that can damage the very people we care so much about.


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## Angel (Mar 13, 2006)

Giving moral support and sharing our experiences is one thing. I think we really need to be careful in offering advice. Many super size people have special needs and medical conditions. Even skinny people are advised to consult with a physician before beginning any type of weight loss regimen or new physical exercise program. It would be safer to consult with physicians, dietitions, and physical therapists. If someone has physical conditions which limit their mobility, they can discuss the option of physical therapy with their primary care physician. Physical therapists will preform an initial evaluation and then show and teach someone the proper way to perform recommended activities, stretches, and exercises. They are also there to assist and also to observe so that activities are done correctly as to not cause bodily injury. With the supersized, we're not talking your average 150-200 pound bodies here. If someone basically leads a sedentary lifestyle, they can easily become injured when attempting to do even the simplist and routine exercises that skinny people do with no effort. Our muscles have to support and carry a lot more than your normal sized person. I just feel that medical and psychological conditions are best left to an individual's physicians. 

People can be supersized and healthy. Just because a person takes a medication or two, does not mean that they are unhealthy. It is when their symptoms or conditions become uncontrollable, that they are unhealthy. Granted, if someone is living on meds their health probably isn't the best. Even some skinny people take numerous medications and can be unhealthy. Size doesn't necessarily have to do with the number of medications someone takes.

You are right. Doctors don't know, nor can they predict how long a supersized person can live before things begin to catch up with them. Also, many people are in denial about the problems and physical conditions that some supersize individuals face on a daily basis. I'm just not sure if this is the proper place to discuss every issue. There are those who only visit Dimensions for one reason, and there are those who get off on knowing and reading about the personal obstacles the supersize endure. There is also the risk of personal issues being repeated or reposted here and elsewhere. Some people make it their business to inform others who wouldn't ordinarily read such information.

I'm all for a new board, but I'm just not so sure what it should entail. It would be nice to have a place to discuss health related issues and concerns without having certain individuals trying to shove their beliefs down our throats or where we can post without being made to feel that we don't belong at Dimensions. This is Dimensions, not a politically based site.

PS: I am supersized, and when lying down, I don't "breathe at a more rapid rate than thinner people".


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## Russell Williams (Mar 13, 2006)

Doctors keeps saying that it is unhealthy to be fat but I'm not sure that they really believe it. For many years I've been battling with medical facilities. Most of my battles have centered around trying to get them to put in some armless chairs or couches are benches so that fat people can wait in comfort for their examinations and treatment. It has been a long, hard, and only partially successful battle.

If doctors truly believe that they can expect to get a lot of sick fat people showing up why would I be fighting this battle?

Yours truly,

Russell Williams


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## Russell Williams (Mar 13, 2006)

It is one thing to point out that, in our society, there are problems associated with being very large. It is quite another thing to produce safe, effective, inexpensive, methods of making very large people thin.

Let us do a little bit of comparing the disadvantages of being fat with the disadvantages of getting old.

It is been my personal experience that getting old has been bad for my health. I would very much like to take about 25 years off of my age. I am not asking to return to age 15 or age 20. I would like to be about 25 years younger because when I was 25 years younger I could more easily do many things that I find somewhat difficult to do now.

To the person who is interested in helping fat people get thinner I would very much appreciate it if he would be kind enough to help me learn safe, effective, inexpensive, methods of becoming about 25 years younger.

Perhaps for most people who are fat the chances of getting thin and staying that way are about the same as are my chances of getting a lot younger and staying that way.

Yours truly,


Russell Williams


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## HappyFatChick (Mar 13, 2006)

Some people keep forgetting that this is a size acceptance site. Most of us are not here looking for diets and exercise. We can find that somewhere else.

Most bbw and ssbbw I know are healthy. Some have some minor issues. Most
average/thinner people I know have some kind of health issue. My average secretary,age 38,is dying of colon cancer. Four of the thin/average women have breast cancer. The average owner of my company, age 44, has a whole list of issues. I and my other fat co-workers have no issues and are quite large.

Most of the people out on sick days are average. The fat people are happy and productive.

Oh, and Vince, I don't think you need to discuss Ruby. She is perfect. And
I think Conrad and crew do a great job.


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## EtobicokeFA (Mar 13, 2006)

While I agree that since we have a WLS forum, that we should have a forum where we can discuss health issues in comfort. 

While I admit, have that much drugs sounds bad. However, I have seen thin people taking almost the same amount. 

And, I know the then person who doesn't want people to know they have diabetes and high blood pressure, and try to appear healthy as well.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 13, 2006)

Trust me when I say this, there are more thin people that have so many more health concerns than I ever have or many other FAT people!

I have been driving for The Senior Service Transportation Department here for the past 9 years. It is a community service for all ages of people, the low income and the elderly. There are many health problems that I have came across and take these wonderful people to all types of doctor's appointments. Kidney Dialysis, Heart Attacks, High Blood Pressure, High Colesterol, Poor Circulation in their extremities, Asthma and a million other health problems. 

I can tell you, in the past 9 years of this service that I provide, there has only been 1 BHM and never a BBW that I have transported.

I being 431 pounds, 5'6 don't have the high blood pressure, high colesteral, diabetes, arthritis or any of the mirade of miseries that most of my clients do and all of them are a lot smaller than I. The only medication that I take is 1 thryoid pill daily. I have no other medications in my home other than Advil, Vick's and cold medicine. So you see, other than a few aches and pains from being busy at work all day( I work 6 days a week) or a day working out in the yard, shopping or otherwise being a very active *54* year old woman. Not all FAT people have extreme health problems or breathing problems because I have none of these difficulties. I may not be as fast at things as others but I can get things done that need to be done.

I think maybe you should do a bit more research before jumping into this can of worns dear VINCE.


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## Zoom (Mar 13, 2006)

There's enough forums on Webplanet Earth about weight loss.

If all the people were "living for the day", as Lennon put it, nobody would care about their weight, if it was too much or too little. Everyone would live happier lives.

At the same time, of course, there comes a point when one has to fit into one's clothes, and be able to get around, and be in good health, and so on and so on... so there is a level of necessity to the need for health/disability discussion.

But not all solutions involve weight loss... It really isn't about what one weighs so much as what one _does_.

It's kind of hard to explain, but think of a mountain climber who never gets up the mountain because he's always tying and re-tying his shoes, and then blames the shoes for his poor mountain climbing.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 13, 2006)

Prior to my current position with homeless & vulnerable adults, I worked with the elderly. I am not a healthcare professional, but my job did require that I work closely with physicians, PCA's, PA's, and other geriatric professionals. A number of my clients were homebound elderly. Two were in the 350+ lb category. 

Everything said about thin people having health problems too is very true -- especially among those who have not developed good preventative care measures for themselves, such as taking vitamin & calcium supplements and incorporating moderate exercise into daily living habits. So many of my elderly female clients were markedly fragile, with frightfully brittle bones. Very few were fat. Of those who were, they were in obviously far worse physical condition than the thin/average sized elderly. I cannot speak for medical conditions that are not visible to the eye - I am talking about extremely limited mobility, relying on others to provide all care, having limited ability to perform even simple activities of daily living. I ended up placing one client in assisted living; the other went to a nursing home. I should note that both were actually under 65, and part of my caseload due to overwhelming disability. 

On the other side of the spectrum, my mother is 58 years old, 300+ lbs, and extremely healthy. Her only physical ailment is ever encroaching mobility problems. She has problems with her knees. Her doctor told her that she will at some point require a knee replacement in her left leg, but said that the artificial elements they use would not support her weight, and that she'd have to lose at least 75 pounds before they'd ever consider an operation. She understands this. She's a nurse practitioner herself, and specialized in Geriatric care when she was working. 

Doctors and other medical professionals would not be cavalier about excess weight and what it can do to the aging body. It is true that weight *loss* is often a very troublesome sign in elderly; however, this does not mean that weight gain or a lot of excess weight is any better. Usually, weight loss in the elderly is a symptom of an underlying disorder. In my father, it was cancer. Sadly, this is often the case. I've seen people here quote statistics about how weight loss is far worse than weight gain. I can say from personal and professional experience that this is misleading.

I don't mean to scare anyone, and I hesitated before posting this because I realize that yet again, we're discussing negative impacts of weight gain with a group of people who have probably heard it all before; I know I have. But I feel that what is being said here is misleading. 

Ladyrose, I believe that your continued good health is true of many people, and I hope that you do not ever have to contend with mobility issues. It's painful to watch my mother struggle to get around, and shuffle along as if she were 88 instead of 58. I can't even imagine the pain that she lives with daily. I wish that there were an easy solution to such a problem.


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## ThatFatGirl (Mar 13, 2006)

HappyFatChick said:


> Some people keep forgetting that this is a size acceptance site. Most of us are not here looking for diets and exercise. We can find that somewhere else.



The thing is, at least for me and I would guess I'm not alone on this, Conrad has done an amazing job making this into a community of people who already support eachother. I think if I wanted to discuss weight loss and exercise, I'd like to do it with the people I know from this group already who might feel similarly inclined. The dieting sites I've been a member of in the past - Oprah's and Dr. Phil's - have a whole other mindset from Dimensions. My impression is that the majority of the members there would never understand feeling fat and sexy or believe that it's really possible - for anyone - to be fat and healthy. I spent six months in both of those communities and that was my experience. Dimensions is simply "home" to many of us. I can't imagine feeling comfortable talking about my health as a very fat bbw with any other online community.

I understand there may be people who want nothing to do with this and I respect that. If there was a health board, I would suggest that posters be asked to title posts so weight loss, diet (not a fad program, but healthier eating), exercise, whatever the topic is clearly stated in the title so those who might feel "triggered" by such things can easily avoid the discussion.

I would be interested to know Conrad's feelings about a place to discuss health - then again - all of this seems relevant to me for the main board as well. I guess the idea of a separate board is to appease those who seem so adamantly against the idea of these topics being discussed. It's an interesting notion really. Can a site that provides a forum for those interested in erotic weight gain also provide a forum for those interested in healthier living, which might include weight loss? Sounds complicated to me. I will respect the Chief's view either way.


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## ThatFatGirl (Mar 13, 2006)

ThatFatGirl said:


> Can a site that provides a forum for those interested in erotic weight gain also provide a forum for those interested in healthier living, which might include weight loss? Sounds complicated to me. I will respect the Chief's view either way.



P.S. my question is definitely not a challenge as whatever it was Vince was getting at with his post, but an honest question. I'm not entirely sure these two things _can_ exist on the same site.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 13, 2006)

ThatFatGirl said:


> The thing is, at least for me and I would guess I'm not alone on this, Conrad has done an amazing job making this into a community of people who already support eachother. I think if I wanted to discuss weight loss and exercise, I'd like to do it with the people I know from this group already who might feel similarly inclined. *The dieting sites I've been a member of in the past - Oprah's and Dr. Phil's - have a whole other mindset from Dimensions. My impression is that the majority of the members there would never understand feeling fat and sexy or believe that it's really possible - for anyone - to be fat and healthy. * I spent six months in both of those communities and that was my experience. Dimensions is simply "home" to many of us. I can't imagine feeling comfortable talking about my health as a very fat bbw with any other online community.



Exactamundo. (Bolded emphasis mine). That's why I want to be able to discuss this stuff here, rather than either a) at a WLS site where "goals" are talked about ad nauseum, and b) where it's okay to still be fat, but be "less fat" because it feels better to me. I hazard a guess that if I said that at 200 pounds, I'd be happy if I never lost another pound, either nobody would "get it" and I'd be ignored, or be called in denial, or a pig, or lazy, or all of the above.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 13, 2006)

ThatFatGirl said:


> P.S. my question is definitely not a challenge as whatever it was Vince was getting at with his post, but an honest question. I'm not entirely sure these two things _can_ exist on the same site.



And yes, that's a good question. Can they coexist in the same place? Is it reasonable for them to coexist at the same site? Can we care about the woman behind the photo shoot and support her in dealing with whatever health problems she has by shedding just a little weight? I personally think that a healthy person is a sexy person -- regardless of their size. But I realize I may be in the minority.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 13, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> And yes, that's a good question. Can they coexist in the same place? Is it reasonable for them to coexist at the same site? Can we care about the woman behind the photo shoot and support her in dealing with whatever health problems she has by shedding just a little weight? I personally think that a healthy person is a sexy person -- regardless of their size. But I realize I may be in the minority.


 
Well, I for one, came here to bet away from the diet talk and disillusionment of failure of such efforts.
I would rather be here, stay healthy and love who I am than be those poor self-hating people that will never be happy with their bodies.

I mean look.... Have you noticed just how many instances of Anorexia and Bolemia there are nowadays? People are killing themselves just to be that awful picture of skinny.

I would much rather wrap my arms around a BIG FAT MAN than a skinny man that is all caught up in how he looks and is percieved by the public!

*GIVE LADYROSE A FAT MAN ANYDAY!*


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 13, 2006)

Ladyrose, Bulimia has nothing to do with health, but is a mental illness which is way too complicated to get into here; if you're interested in the causes of anorexia and bulimia, I'd like to invite you to do a Google search, but I don't think you can link them, in any way, with a fat person wanting to be less fat in order to have something resembling a productive, happy, relatively pain-free life. 

And yes, it's great to say "oh just love yourself at XXX pounds". And for someone in your position -- who is mobile and healthy at a high weight -- that makes sense. Nobody should have to lose weight to feel worthy, or have a job, or a lover, or a place to live. No one should base their self worth on a number on a scale, and nobody's talking about doing that. But there are those of us who cannot do that, whose health and mobility are deteriorating, who end up taking numerous pills just to keep from DYING, let alone pain pills just to be able to get out of bed and function. I mean, yeah, I'd love to just have to take a thyroid pill to function. But prior to my weight loss, I took several prescriptions just to manage my comorbidities, not to mention the Motrin I was taking like candy just to get through a shift at work. That ain't healthy, and anyone who would wish that life on someone else is not very kind.

And come to think of it, weren't you celebrating YOUR weight loss on this very board not too long ago?


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 13, 2006)

I agree Vickie. I think wanting to lose weight to gain mobility back is a far cry from Bulimia. 

_(none of the rest of this post is directed at you Vickie!)_ 

But I also think that Conrad has worked long and hard for this place to be exactly what it is - a place to get away from diet talk. 

I don't think anyone should be challenging Conrad to do anything - unless of course said person has spent as many years as Conrad has fighting for fat rights - and only if said person has poured as much time - effort and money as Conrad has into this site and SA in general.

I feel if you're gonna challenge Conrad - *Put up, or shut up![*





Miss Vickie said:


> Ladyrose, Bulimia has nothing to do with health, but is a mental illness which is way too complicated to get into here; if you're interested in the causes of anorexia and bulimia, I'd like to invite you to do a Google search, but I don't think you can link them, in any way, with a fat person wanting to be less fat in order to have something resembling a productive, happy, relatively pain-free life.
> 
> And yes, it's great to say "oh just love yourself at XXX pounds". And for someone in your position -- who is mobile and healthy at a high weight -- that makes sense. Nobody should have to lose weight to feel worthy, or have a job, or a lover, or a place to live. No one should base their self worth on a number on a scale, and nobody's talking about doing that. But there are those of us who cannot do that, whose health and mobility are deteriorating, who end up taking numerous pills just to keep from DYING, let alone pain pills just to be able to get out of bed and function. I mean, yeah, I'd love to just have to take a thyroid pill to function. But prior to my weight loss, I took several prescriptions just to manage my comorbidities, not to mention the Motrin I was taking like candy just to get through a shift at work. That ain't healthy, and anyone who would wish that life on someone else is not very kind.
> 
> And come to think of it, weren't you celebrating YOUR weight loss on this very board not too long ago?


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## ThatFatGirl (Mar 13, 2006)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> But I also think that Conrad has worked long and hard for this place to be exactly what it is - a place to get away from diet talk.
> 
> I don't think anyone should be challenging Conrad to do anything - unless of course said person has spent as many years as Conrad has fighting for fat rights - and only if said person has poured as much time - effort and money as Conrad has into this site and SA in general.
> 
> I feel if you're gonna challenge Conrad - *Put up, or shut up![*



I've regretted the placement of my post since I hit the submit post button! I am merely asking a question, most definitely not posing a challenge. The question of where do we go to comfortably talk about healthier living is the question. I don't expect Conrad to have the answers or to provide the forum if it doesn't fit with his vision for Dimensions. I don't think there is any question that there are many in this community who are feeling the need for another alternative - a place where we can safely discuss doing what we might need to in order to be healthier fat people. I know Abundance exists, but I've never been able to get with the vibe of that site. Dimensions is most definitely, the spot on the web that I most like to call "home."


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## Webmaster (Mar 13, 2006)

Vince said:


> ...If what I say is true then why haven't the fat members of this board an opportunity to discuss the various issues concerning weightloss, fitness and health?...


 
If you read my New Year's message you'll notice the following paragraph towards the end: 

"_There are some projects that are on my agenda for 2006. Some have actually been on my agenda for a while. For example, I still believe that no one has anything meaningful to say to very fat people. Some simply have run out of solutions and they are hurting in many ways. Neither NAAFA nor anyone else in size acceptance has ever had a solution, or at least an agreed-on policy, on what to recommend to the fattest among us. With our combined resources and many among us who do face a severe loss of quality of life due to their size, we must be able to come up with some meaningful information, recommendations and solutions for those who need them so badly._" 

That has been on my mind for a long time. I tried to get NAAFA to formulate a more realistic policy regarding those for whom size acceptance philosophy was no longer enough. I also tried to solicit the help of some supersized people, some of whom were ardent NAAFA critics. For some reason, this never came together, and collaboration promises were repeatedly withdrawn. Even some people close to me seemed, and seem, to have reservations about the project. 

So while personally I do believe that a rather well organized effort is required, and that the initial result of such an effort could be a website with as much real-world, realistic information as possible, all in one place, I could also simply create a diet/health board. I am actually not ruling that out, but I would also want to do it so that it'd be an integral part of Dimensions' overall philosophy. That philosophy, as it applies here, is in short to make the most of what you're dealt in life, and to see the good and the beauty in it. 

I am quite aware that large size has its negative aspects. I wish it weren't so, and all fat people wish it weren't so, but those aspects are there. The diet industry makes billions off that fact every year, and many fat people remain ostracized targets. There are thousands of conventional diet boards out there, and probably hundreds of WLS boards. Most are dedicated to self-loathing, self pity, and commercial exploitation. I don't want any of that. On the other hand, it's quite possible that the Dimensions community could have a place where some of the vexing aspects of being fat can be discussed, and solutions/workarounds/coping suggested in a realistic, supportive, positive context. Just as Dimensions celebrates that fat can be sexy and attractive, we should also be realistic enough to consider the negatives rather than ignoring them behind a wall of size-political rethoric.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Mar 13, 2006)

As a veteran of anorexia, I can assure you that it's NOT about the weight. It's NOT about the number on the scale. It's a slow form of suicide, a laborious self-torture, and self-mutilation. Anorexics know when it's impossible for them to be "fat." We're essentially playing God. It's more an issue of control. 

Yes, I can "make myself" weigh 86 lbs. Although it isn't the case anymore, it was even easy for me initially after recovering to slip into kind of a secret pride that I can exercise tremendous control over myself. It's just within the last 12 months where I can control the binge-eating. I've had to concede that I just feel things more than most people. I'm more sensitive, and I have to vocalize my feelings, all of them, be it through talking or writing or art. I'm 160 lbs., 5' 5", mid-sized. I don't have any illusions about my weight. 80% of the time, I like my body with its dramatic curves, stretchmarks, zit scars, pale skin, etc. I don't care if I lose a lb. or if I gain 20, because you know what, it won't be a reflection of my feelings or a lack of expressing them controlling it. I don't know why I went through this. I don't know why others go through this much suffering. It's sad and it's painful, and no one quite ever understands unless they've been through it. However, it's important to realize that this IS a rarity, and while you don't have to understand it, or support recovering people even, it's nice. An anorexic can be 40 or 400 lbs., but all people deserve equal support. It's a terrible place to be.


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## Arkveveen (Mar 13, 2006)

I kind of got offended by this... I don't want to ever be skinny... yet, this is a well said point. But, I admit, fat is not healthy 100% of the time.
I just believe fat is healthy to those who love it in their bodies... who feel that the fat is pure, natural, and healthy. I do myself, my fat really feels good. Stress is also a major factor in health problems at times.
Yet I still believe that fat gets "angry" and turns to cancer when people try to lose their fat or hate it even if they are meant to be fat. I also kind of have naturalist view on fat as well as fatness. "Humans would not be able to retain fat if it was so unhealthy."
But, I do truly feel it's evil for me to lose weight, yet, I do know I will not get health problems, just because I know. My family has no history of health problems, and has a history of long life. Mabye I am being a hypocrit of some sort by fearing weight loss? I just don't want to lose my "precious" fat, it really does feel like it needs to stay on my body.
I do not know if I am even right with my beliefs.. it is so difficult living being a fat lover, and fat as well as happy person. I wanted to commit suicide numerous times, like now as I type this message.
I myself don't want to get too big, I would like ot stay under 320 pounds or less. But, my fat doesn't want to go away, I had numerous encounters with my mother when she offended me, the ways I got angry at her was of an animal... my fat was defending itself.
On the other hand though, nothing can compensate for Size Acceptance doing nothing for so long, but just secretly banter about stuff in the dark, in hopes it can leak to some people to pass onto others. Health is a giant issue for fat people, and as I said... it IS the final battle for size acceptance, as well as the most difficult as well. I do not know who will win... but I can assure you, I am not going down without a fight! 
For me... happiness is health... true "health"... I never fear death, yet, I have pondered that I may fear it if I get close to it. I must stay true to my body, it NEEDS to be fat, I know it in my soul. Health has become such an endeavor, people forgot happiness being a contributor to health... becoming mindless hypochondriacs, who lost all rationallity.
Right now, I do feel that I should go outside, run away from home, from my family, and lay on a hill to die slowly in the cold.
I am tired of people thinking what they say is 100% right to everyone, I believe in size acceptance, and in fat as well as happy people. Yet, there is something wrong with being told that there is nothing wrong with "being healthy"... it's the typical fat=100% unhealthy ideal. I kind of heard enough of this myself.
Why does life have to be so hard and depressing? When it indeed doesn't have to...


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## Janet (Mar 13, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> On the other side of the spectrum, my mother is 58 years old, 300+ lbs, and extremely healthy. Her only physical ailment is ever encroaching mobility problems. She has problems with her knees. Her doctor told her that she will at some point require a knee replacement in her left leg, but said that the artificial elements they use would not support her weight, and that she'd have to lose at least 75 pounds before they'd ever consider an operation. She understands this. She's a nurse practitioner herself, and specialized in Geriatric care when she was working.



TraciJo, this is just encouragement. My Dad got both knees replaced at 65 years old and 350 lbs. While they encouraged him to lose a bit of weight prior to surgery (for heart, breathing, anesthesia purposes), there was never any discussion that the artificial joint would not be strong enough. They are titanium, for goodness sake! (Obviously the strength of the bone where they are attached is another issue, particularly for older women at risk for osteoporosis.) 

The surgery helped his mobility tremendously--particularly because he didn't always have pain in the joint.

Janet


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 13, 2006)

Janet said:


> TraciJo, this is just encouragement. My Dad got both knees replaced at 65 years old and 350 lbs. While they encouraged him to lose a bit of weight prior to surgery (for heart, breathing, anesthesia purposes), there was never any discussion that the artificial joint would not be strong enough. They are titanium, for goodness sake! (Obviously the strength of the bone where they are attached is another issue, particularly for older women at risk for osteoporosis.)
> 
> The surgery helped his mobility tremendously--particularly because he didn't always have pain in the joint.
> 
> Janet



Thank you for your encouragement, Janet. I'd love for my mother to go ahead with the operation, but she is holding out for a minimally invasive procedure, and she was told that she must weigh less than 225 pounds or she is not a candidate. There are other procedures, but she has weighed her risks with what she is being told about the likelihood of requiring another surgery within 5 years if she doesn't lose weight. One thing I'm not sure of: She was apparently told that the titanium replacement is really only guaranteed for a maximum weight of 350. I don't think she's anywhere near that, probably at least 40 pounds from it - but I do know that she feared the possibility of weight gain after surgery, as she would be immobilized for up to 8 weeks (not a good time to be losing weight, as we all know). 

Janet, if you don't mind me asking, how long ago did your dad have his replacement surgery, and how is he doing now?


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## ripley (Mar 14, 2006)

My dad also had a knee replacement, although he is not that big. He is 5'7" and about 200 lbs. But he was quite a bit older (76) when he had it two years ago. He's doing great still.


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## Vince (Mar 14, 2006)

Thank you, Conrad, for your considered response. You, too, well know about the challenges facing many fat people as they age. You said: 

_That philosophy, as it applies here, is in short to make the most of what you're dealt in life, and to see the good and the beauty in it. _

We all journey though life and go through many stages. While I agree that many are destined to become quite large if they happen to live in certain cities and have certain lifestyles there are still things that can be done to either reduce those results and possibly prevent them. There are people who know they are at risk of diabetes. In many cases it is possible to avoid the nasty disease by various strategies such as changing diet and not becoming too large. 

If it is possible for some supersize people to become smaller then these people need the very best information that is available. That goes for diet information. You would think that with the sceptical members of this community that diet advice and experiences would be more valuable than what is found elsewhere. People here have nothing to sell and they sure know a lot about the diets that haven't done much for them. All that valuable experience should be assembled and disseminated to those who would benefit from that knowledge. 

The same thing applies to exercise. There are many beliefs about what is best to do and the feedback from experienced people here cannot be obtained anywhere else that I can think of. Exercise can be done for many reasons but those who want to explore the possibility of fat loss can have the best advice available. I will offer my services for free to those who wish to enquire about it. Exercise seems like a simple subject but it is as complex as any other part of medicine/science. There is a lot of information out there and there are good sources and not so good sources to look at. I can help the philosophy of exercise re fat people. 

You have built a very active site here at Dimensions. You have also been an honoured leader in size acceptance for many, many years. Perhaps you can lead the way and make a start towards finding solutions for the extremely limited fat people who literally do not know what to do or who to turn to. We have seen some very nice people die long before old age. Some elected to have weight loss surgery and others suffered from other problems. A fitness and diet forum at Dimensions would serve the fat people well. Such a forum would evolve and be as valuable as those contibuting and benefitting choose to make it. I know it goes against the stance Dimensions has had since the beginning. You do know that if you keep doing things exactly the same then nothing is ever going to change or be different.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 14, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> And come to think of it, weren't you celebrating YOUR weight loss on this very board not too long ago?


 
Yes, I was celebrating my weight loss, but I only want to loose enough so that I don't ache so at the end of the day in my feet and legs, I would never and have never been thin.

I would just like to not be so tired at the end of a work or shopping day.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 14, 2006)

ThatFatGirl said:


> I've regretted the placement of my post since I hit the submit post button! I am merely asking a question, most definitely not posing a challenge. The question of where do we go to comfortably talk about healthier living is the question. I don't expect Conrad to have the answers or to provide the forum if it doesn't fit with his vision for Dimensions. I don't think there is any question that there are many in this community who are feeling the need for another alternative - a place where we can safely discuss doing what we might need to in order to be healthier fat people. I know Abundance exists, but I've never been able to get with the vibe of that site. Dimensions is most definitely, the spot on the web that I most like to call "home."


 

I agree with you in many ways. I wouldn't mind having a board just for members can share experiences with their health, both good and bad and remedies to help them live Health, Happy FAT Lives.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 14, 2006)

Webmaster said:


> If you read my New Year's message you'll notice the following paragraph towards the end:
> 
> "_There are some projects that are on my agenda for 2006. Some have actually been on my agenda for a while. For example, I still believe that no one has anything meaningful to say to very fat people. Some simply have run out of solutions and they are hurting in many ways. Neither NAAFA nor anyone else in size acceptance has ever had a solution, or at least an agreed-on policy, on what to recommend to the fattest among us. With our combined resources and many among us who do face a severe loss of quality of life due to their size, we must be able to come up with some meaningful information, recommendations and solutions for those who need them so badly._"
> 
> ...


 
I wouldn't nessisarily want to have a DIET board here, but I would like to see a Health board where members can go to give and get advice on living a FAT lifestyle and to make our health better and if we have any issues that or concerns to be able to discuss them with other's that may be having the same issues.
I won't frequent any DIET board, but a BETTER Mental and physical HEALTH Board I would.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 14, 2006)

Ladyrose1952 said:


> Yes, I was celebrating my weight loss, but I only want to loose enough so that I don't ache so at the end of the day in my feet and legs, I would never and have never been thin.
> 
> I would just like to not be so tired at the end of a work or shopping day.



Isn't that what most people are after? I don't think anyone here wishes to look like a Barbie. This whole discussion has been more about increased health and mobility, for those who are facing health problems. 

Why would you think that celebration of *your* weight loss is perfectly fine within a fat acceptance community, but for the rest of us, such discussion is "diet talk" and "self hating"?


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 14, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Isn't that what most people are after? I don't think anyone here wishes to look like a Barbie. This whole discussion has been more about increased health and mobility, for those who are facing health problems.
> 
> Why would you think that celebration of *your* weight loss is perfectly fine within a fat acceptance community, but for the rest of us, such discussion is "diet talk" and "self hating"?


 
I said all of that because I have fought those feelings for many years and I am just comming to the conclusion that these thoughts don't have to rule my life or anyone else's.
I am not dieting as some would think, I am just eating healthier and being more careful of what I eat. I am after all 54 years old, I don't want to develope High Blood Pressure, High Colesterol, Diabetes and other age related health problems that could be caused from eating unhealthily.
*I appologize if I worded things wrong.*


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## RedHead (Mar 14, 2006)

Vince, TraciJo, TFC, Vickie you have all made excellent remarks....but I have a question....why is the word diet so aborehent to everyone here?

Could we call it perhaps a Health Check board...tips for mobility - links to sources to get canes, wheelchairs or scooters; tips for lowering cholesterol or blood pressure...perhaps a place where excersises that can be performed by a SSBW (chair dancing or water aerobics)....this doesn't have to be about weight loss...it can be about health and a better life.

How much happiness can you truly have at 450lbs housebound or in so much pain that the thought of getting out of chair makes you cry. You can say it all you want...but you can love yourself and accept yourself...but you don't have to accept the pain that can happen when you have overloaded your body.

Conrad...I don't know if there is anything that I could do to help; but I will put up...because (if you ask anyone that knows me) I won't shut up.


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## Tina (Mar 14, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Thank you for your encouragement, Janet. I'd love for my mother to go ahead with the operation, but she is holding out for a minimally invasive procedure, and she was told that she must weigh less than 225 pounds or she is not a candidate. There are other procedures, but she has weighed her risks with what she is being told about the likelihood of requiring another surgery within 5 years if she doesn't lose weight. One thing I'm not sure of: She was apparently told that the titanium replacement is really only guaranteed for a maximum weight of 350. I don't think she's anywhere near that, probably at least 40 pounds from it - but I do know that she feared the possibility of weight gain after surgery, as she would be immobilized for up to 8 weeks (not a good time to be losing weight, as we all know).
> 
> Janet, if you don't mind me asking, how long ago did your dad have his replacement surgery, and how is he doing now?



My mom had the surgery at 80 years old and was not down for 8 weeks. Matter of fact, not long after she went home the physical therapist came to help her with exercises. If your mother does hers faithfully, she will be up and around much sooner than she thinks.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 14, 2006)

Ladyrose1952 said:


> I said all of that because I have fought those feelings for many years and I am just comming to the conclusion that these thoughts don't have to rule my life or anyone else's.
> I am not dieting as some would think, I am just eating healthier and being more careful of what I eat. I am after all 54 years old, I don't want to develope High Blood Pressure, High Colesterol, Diabetes and other age related health problems that could be caused from eating unhealthily.
> *I appologize if I worded things wrong.*



This is all that we're asking for, Ladyrose. Nobody's asking to be ruled by a number on a scale, or to be a size 4, or whatever. We're asking for a place where we can find information about how to avoid the very problems that you have managed to avoid through, at least in part, the luck of the draw. But for some of us it's too late and are beyond simply being "more careful". For us, some fat loss is a necessity for living a longer life, and we don't have the luxury of being in our 50's, over 400 pounds, and not taking a baker's dozen of medication. The reality, for some of us, is that we need to act NOW, so that we can even make it to our 50th birthdays. We don't hate our fat per se; I think I can speak for most everyone in saying that we would prefer to be healthy at ANY size. 

But we don't have the luxury of just accepting our weight, unless we want to accept the consequences of carrying it as well.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 14, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Vince, TraciJo, TFC, Vickie you have all made excellent remarks....but I have a question....why is the word diet so aborehent to everyone here?



Because in the size acceptance culture, diets don't work. And I think for most of us -- particularly at larger sizes -- they don't, at least not in the long term. What CAN work for some is lifelong changes in lifestyle, which is, I believe, what we're talking about here. Nobody's saying "let's have a Jenny Craig board", but rather let's have a board where we can celebrate improved health and mobility through eating well and moving. And for those of us who must resort to the drastic measure of WLS, let's include those people as well.

I see this as being an inclusive thing, allowing discussion regarding attempts of fat loss in a place where those who are irritated by it don't have to read it.



> You can say it all you want...but you can love yourself and accept yourself...but you don't have to accept the pain that can happen when you have overloaded your body.



Couldn't have said it better myself.



> Conrad...I don't know if there is anything that I could do to help; but I will put up...because (if you ask anyone that knows me) I won't shut up.



Aint' that the truth.  We're two peas in a pod that way, you and I. No wonder our coffee date lasted almost three hours!


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## Tina (Mar 14, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Vince, TraciJo, TFC, Vickie you have all made excellent remarks....but I have a question....why is the word diet so aborehent to everyone here?



Red, the reason why diets are so abhorrent to us is because most of us have tried so many, failed and then gained even more weight because of them.

I remember being in 5th grade, being put on Weight Watchers, back when their foods were REALLY gross, and having to eat tuna out of the can with mustard on it for lunch at school. Gross. I also was so hungry and my body so starved, that I passed out at a Weight Watchers meeting at that young of an age. I've always had a very hardy body and have never been prone to passing out.

Most of us have tried every diet and with each diet, more weight. Between diets and injuries, I ballooned up to 451 lbs, was practically immobile, in pain 24/7, with no let-up, and was suicidally depressed. Now, after loosing 112+lbs and 28+ inches (and no, I did not have WLS, for those who are wondering), my life is changed, but I still would never go on a fad diet. Being forced to diet, as many have, being forced to go to a hypnotist for weight loss at 11 years old (didn't work, I pretended to be hypnotized and didn't lose weight), being traumatized since being young about my weight, about losing weight, and about every friggin' thing I put into my mouth, self-hating diet talk is something I have a problem with, too.

Talking about changing eating to lose weight and regain health in a supportive environment where fat-hatred doesn't exist, is, IMO, a far different thing.

In closing, I have to say that I think the theory that our bodies will get "angry" at us and develop cancer for losing weight is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.


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## ThatFatGirl (Mar 14, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Vince, TraciJo, TFC, Vickie you have all made excellent remarks....but I have a question....why is the word diet so aborehent to everyone here?



Real simple for me, the word diet for me implies something temporary. Diets don't work for 95% of those who attempt them. It's a word that for many implies pending failure, pending weight gain, pending disappointment and depression. As Cathy (the comics character) once said, "Diet = Die with a T." I've decided I will never diet again because I've failed every time I've tried since age 8 and I lost 30lbs of baby fat on prescription diet pills, only to gain back 40 + and start a lifetime of yo-yo dieting. What am I going to do? I have no idea, but I'm getting too fat to fit in my car, and I hate running out of energy as quickly as I do and the body aches that accompany being a person this size. So I may begin some moderation of the calories I consume and I may begin exercising, but I will never say I'm going on a diet. That word sets me up for failure.


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## ThatFatGirl (Mar 14, 2006)

Tina said:


> In closing, I have to say that I think the theory that our bodies will get "angry" at us and develop cancer for losing weight is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.



May I second that? Seems like someone is quite out of touch with reality. QUITE.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 14, 2006)

Tina said:


> I remember being in 5th grade, being put on Weight Watchers, back when their foods were REALLY gross, and having to eat tuna out of the can with mustard on it for lunch at school. Gross. I also was so hungry and my body so starved, that I passed out at a Weight Watchers meeting at that young of an age. I've always had a very hardy body and have never been prone to passing out.
> 
> Most of us have tried every diet and with each diet, more weight. Between diets and injuries, I ballooned up to 451 lbs, was practically immobile, in pain 24/7, with no let-up, and was suicidally depressed. Now, after loosing 112+lbs and 28+ inches (and no, I did not have WLS, for those who are wondering), my life is changed, but I still would never go on a fad diet. Being forced to diet, as many have, being forced to go to a hypnotist for weight loss at 11 years old (didn't work, I pretended to be hypnotized and didn't lose weight), being traumatized since being young about my weight, about losing weight, and about every friggin' thing I put into my mouth, self-hating diet talk is something I have a problem with, too.
> 
> Talking about changing eating to lose weight and regain health in a supportive environment where fat-hatred doesn't exist, is, IMO, a far different thing.



Yep, exactly. It's a fine line between choosing to eat well for health reasons, and guilting yourself for eating a cookie. I really try very hard not to beat myself up for my less than stellar food choices. OTOH, if I practice indulgence, then even after the surgery I'm pretty sure I could pack the weight back on. Isn't it tough to find that happy medium? I'm struggling with that now.



> In closing, I have to say that I think the theory that our bodies will get "angry" at us and develop cancer for losing weight is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.



Did I miss something?? I don't remember anybody saying that. Am I guilty of skimming AGAIN???

Edited to add never mind. I found the post. Holy cow. Ah, to be young and know everything.


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## Ned Sonntag (Mar 14, 2006)

Lose 2megs of excess bandwidth- Ban Vince:doh: !


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## TallFatSue (Mar 14, 2006)

Ned Sonntag said:


> Lose 2megs of excess bandwidth- Ban Vince:doh: !


I'll second the motion! All in favor, say "aye!"

I love this board -- except -- Vince's function in life is being a wet blanket and a devil's advocate, and I just don't need that. Don't we fat women endure enough people pushing our buttons in general society without having to put up with his BS here?


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## mossystate (Mar 14, 2006)

I guess I am lucky, in that I went on only a few reducing diets, when I was young.I remember the brown rice and peaches in the AM..the brown rice and steamed veggies for lunch..brown rice and a sliver of chicken ta-ta's for dinner.I never stayed on those 'diets' for very long.The word diet was hi-jacked long ago.We do not have the strong reaction when we hear,"part of a healthy diet".I don't suppose it IS a word that can be taken back and made ok..like the word..FAT 
I have decided that I am am ready to begin reducing the size of my portions.I can also do better in terms of the amount of refined sugar I consume.I will never go on an official 'diet', unless(knock on wood) I have to do so.
None of what is being discussed whould be such a boogeyman or woman.I agree with those who have said it before me..when talk of nutrition, and yes, losing weight is frowned upon out here,then fat is simply a fetish.I am a real life flesh and blood human...just no pinching..unless you have an invite


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## Vince (Mar 14, 2006)

Hey, Tall Fat Sue, I guess when I admire and support you that is all BS, too, huh?


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## Janet (Mar 14, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Thank you for your encouragement, Janet. I'd love for my mother to go ahead with the operation, but she is holding out for a minimally invasive procedure, and she was told that she must weigh less than 225 pounds or she is not a candidate. There are other procedures, but she has weighed her risks with what she is being told about the likelihood of requiring another surgery within 5 years if she doesn't lose weight. One thing I'm not sure of: She was apparently told that the titanium replacement is really only guaranteed for a maximum weight of 350. I don't think she's anywhere near that, probably at least 40 pounds from it - but I do know that she feared the possibility of weight gain after surgery, as she would be immobilized for up to 8 weeks (not a good time to be losing weight, as we all know).
> 
> Janet, if you don't mind me asking, how long ago did your dad have his replacement surgery, and how is he doing now?



Hi. Dad had both replacements in the last 5 years. He's 69, 5'9" and weighs 300+. At the time of his first surgery, they wanted him to lose some. As I recall he lost about 30 lbs. Since the surgery his weight has varied from 280-350 and I've never heard anything about the prosthesis having a weight limit. (When Dad had the surgery they were making an 11" incision, but now, his surgeon is using a 5" incision.) 

As for gaining after surgery, I noticed the opposite with Dad. From the moment surgery was done, they started physio. Walking, range of motion with an automated machine, etc. He was able to walk and move with less pain than he'd been living with and the extra activity has helped his health all around.

Hope that helps.


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## Isa (Mar 15, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Could we call it perhaps a Health Check board...tips for mobility - links to sources to get canes, wheelchairs or scooters; tips for lowering cholesterol or blood pressure...perhaps a place where excersises that can be performed by a SSBW (chair dancing or water aerobics)....



Great idea then such topics wouldn't get lost on the main board. 



> ....this doesn't have to be about weight loss...it can be about health and a better life.



Often weight loss is about health and a better life. A lot of people refuse to accept that.


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## john_in_indy (Mar 15, 2006)

I support the suggestion of a "Health" forum, with all the influence that someone who has posted twice in six years has I also agree with a previous poster (forgive me if I don't search for her name) that it should not serve as a substitute for professional medical advice. It should be a place where fat people can come to discuss their health issues and experiences without the knee-jerk solution of "first lose weight."

I agree that the word "diet" shouldn't be associated with such a forum, it has too many painful memories for many who visit this site. I also think that it's fair to say that even the medical professionals don't understand this fully yet.

I think Vince's post was well-meaning and might have gone over better if it was phrased as a "suggestion" and not as a "challenge." I don't believe Conrad has said anything contrary to the promotion of good health and doesn't need to be challenged on the subject.

On the separate subject of titanium joint replacements, I don't have any experience with the medical uses of titanium, but I do use it in my industry (jet engines.) Titanium is showing up as a buzzword in a lot marketing campaigns in the past few years (I even received an offer in the mail for a Titanium Visa card.) Titanium is not super strong, as the ads would imply, it is just strong for its weight. I believe that the medical industry uses it because it is very inert as far as the body is concerned, and is still reasonably strong.

A former co-worker of mine had a failed Titanium hip joint stored in his desk that had been removed from his grandfather (I don't believe he was a BHM), so the joints most definitely do break on occasion. I was quite surprised at how thin the joint is, but I guess they must try to minimize the amount of removed bone.

These joints are mostly installed in older people, for whom this can be considered to be very invasive surgery. I'm willing to bet that the 350 lb limit that was quoted was set to give an extremely low failure rate. Going through this surgery twice was quite traumatic for my co-worker's grandfather.


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## Vince (Mar 15, 2006)

Well said, John. It is always possible to phrase things more tactfully and make a better impact. What I wonder is if new people arrive here what do they find? Subjects like feeder and even a foodee board. I wonder what people make of those forums? A health forum dedicated to fat people and run by fat people would guarantee that it would be relevant and useful to those who want that kind of information.

The main thing I have found as a person who has studied science is that the various disciplines are evolving and changing as more research is done and knowledge advances. It would be a service if informed individuals would contribute in a way that makes the forum a great resource for fat friendly information.


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## ripley (Mar 15, 2006)

I'm torn. On one hand, I agree that I could be healthier...almost everyone could have healthier habits. On the other hand, I enjoyed this being the one single place I could come to without having to hear that it would benefit me to lose weight. Just because it's couched as 'we don't want you to lose 200 lbs., we only want you to lose 50' isn't helping me much.

Ever since I was 13 years old, when I went to Weight Watchers for the first time, I have had this horrid "You should be trying to lose weight" feeling hanging over me. I enjoyed having a place to go where I did not have to feel that feeling, or talk about weight loss, or pretend to be dieting when I am really not.

I know, I know...don't look at that board (if one comes) if I don't like it. But I'll know it's there! LOL I'm afraid that the answer to every query on it is going to be "Lose weight." I hear that EVERYWHERE. I liked having one place where I didn't have to hear it. Is that putting my head in the sand, and ignoring what it really means to be a SSBBW? Possibly. Like I said, I'm torn.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 15, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Vince, TraciJo, TFC, Vickie you have all made excellent remarks....but I have a question....why is the word diet so aborehent to everyone here?
> 
> Could we call it perhaps a Health Check board...tips for mobility - links to sources to get canes, wheelchairs or scooters; tips for lowering cholesterol or blood pressure...perhaps a place where excersises that can be performed by a SSBW (chair dancing or water aerobics)....this doesn't have to be about weight loss...it can be about health and a better life.
> 
> ...


 
I so agree with you on this, I get so tired of my joints aching and getting tired so easily and it I could loose just a little wieght dieting or any other way, it would be so benificial for me to do so. 
I don't and have never been a thin person, but I have always and want to always be a healthy one.
I would support anything that would help me loose enough so that I am not one of those people that are house bound or have to use a scooter to get around. I want the freedom to do the activities that I have done all my life, only I want to keep doing them pain free. I want to stay FAT and BEAUTIFUL, but I don't want the pain that is caused by weighing 431 pounds either.


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## missaf (Mar 15, 2006)

Chiming in a little late here, sorry!

I'm not even 30 years old yet, and because of family history and a youthful indiscretionary knee injury (I was playing football in high school, tackle Freshman Football), I will need a knee replacement within the next ten years. The joint is falling apart, and I was told this was going to happen when I had the surgery done fifteen years ago. I was overweight then, but I was healthy. I'm overweight now, but I'm healthy. That may change, but it would definitely be nice to have a specific place to go to address these issues. Just because I'm fat doesn't mean that accidents don't happen, or hell, shit just doesn't happen. Skinny people get sick, too, it's just less appealing when a person of size has an issue they need to address in the main stream.

I don't think it's a contradiction for LadyRose to be feeling accepting of her size, but still wanting to maintain a pain free lifestyle. Dropping a few pounds isn't a denial of who she is, it's a matter of choice for her to be comfortable, which is what I'm sure we all want for each other. Being comfortable and maintaining an active way of life is important for everyone, and everyone struggles with that, despite their weight. If we remember that and as a community agree to support those who seek help rather than blaming their weight or suggesting weight loss as a be all end all solution, we can avoid the bad taste of the word "diet" on our tongues and still be of help to those around us.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 15, 2006)

missaf said:


> I don't think it's a contradiction for LadyRose to be feeling accepting of her size, but still wanting to maintain a pain free lifestyle. Dropping a few pounds isn't a denial of who she is, it's a matter of choice for her to be comfortable, which is what I'm sure we all want for each other. Being comfortable and maintaining an active way of life is important for everyone, and everyone struggles with that, despite their weight. If we remember that and as a community agree to support those who seek help rather than blaming their weight or suggesting weight loss as a be all end all solution, we can avoid the bad taste of the word "diet" on our tongues and still be of help to those around us.



Exactly. My issue is that Ladyrose came out against weight loss, and yet she was celebrating her own. It just seemed like a bit of a double standard to me. As you say, dropping some weight to be more comfortable in our own skin isn't denial, or a lack of acceptance; to me it's an act of self love. Sometimes losing weight helps, sometimes not. There are so many factors that go into these problems -- aging, genetics, and yes, our weight -- that it's hard to sort them out. So we change what we can reasonably change (obviously we can't change our age!) and hope for the best.


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## Sweet Tooth (Mar 15, 2006)

What I've seen in myself and others is that, as one values themselves more and more [a goal of size-acceptance], one will treat themselves as a person of value.

How that looks in the "real" world may not mean thinness, but it hopefully will mean that someone eats quality food to nourish the body [and sometimes the soul - I'm thinking of Thanksgiving dinner and such].

It means someone will move to whatever extent as they are able so that they work their heart and other muscles because they want to have the capacity to play with their kids or visit a museum on vacation or whatever it is that is the "life" in their life.

It also means that people will learn that they have intrinsic value which allows them to demand access to the things of life - movies, airplanes, restaurants, etc. When someone comes to accept him/herself, he/she will get their health issues [caused by genetics or weight or accident or whatever makes a person need medical attention] addressed by a qualified, considerate professional in a timely manner, not waiting until things have deteriorated.

All this to me means that size-acceptance is very much about weight, health, and well-being. One side-effect is that it also teaches people should be the experts on their own bodies, so adherents hopefully learn to accept the different paths others take. I admit I still work on this, especially when I see someone doing something I feel is unhealthy either physically or emotionally.

On a personal note, I have been large all my life. I also happen to have good genes from the women on both sides of my family. My mom, a size 18/20 is a 20 year cancer survivor. My grandmothers were over size 20 and lived to be 89 and 100. My great grandmothers, also both BBWs, lived into their late 80s. I don't know how being fat affects women with other genes. I do know that I can still spend all day walking around a street fair so long as I have comfy shoes. I may not be able to run fast or far, but I didn't like doing that at size 16 either. I think we all have a size where we feel healthiest and happiest, finding a balance between relentless body hatred and being unable to live our lives.

As for a health group, that sounds great. Lots of people here care about their health. They may not care about being thin or even losing weight. [When I joined Curves, I just said that I wanted to be there for health and didn't want to be weight or measured. I could feel myself being healthier and building muscle but my pants still fit the same and that was fine with me.] I would hesitate to make it about dieting or food, though, because that's only one aspect of health.

[Notice I refrained, with much difficulty, from quoting studies. I find that someone who has an idea stuck in their head rarely hears anything that opposes it, much to my endless frustration. <sigh>]


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## RedHead (Mar 15, 2006)

Thank you to all who posted why the word "diet" is so abborhent to them. I was truly curious why it seemed to set some people off.

Beyond that point...what is in a word (I know it can hurt and dredge up things)...but isn't it something like the gay movement taking back queer?

I just ache for those of us that see the word diet and almost have a panic attack. I too remember weight watcher meetings in 5th grade. I remember I was the first girl to have breasts...some of it maturing faster, alot of it chub.

I say that if there is a desire for the information why can we not utilize the WLS board already established...perhaps with a sticky?? I just think that instead of coming against one another; we should help one another and if I have knowledge first hand of how to do something...isn't that what friends and "family" is for???


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## Tina (Mar 15, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Beyond that point...what is in a word (I know it can hurt and dredge up things)...but isn't it something like the gay movement taking back queer?



I have to say I think a more apt comparison would be fat people who have taken back the word "fat."

Not sure how it would be empowering to take on the word "diet," though.


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## RedHead (Mar 15, 2006)

Tina said:


> I have to say I think a more apt comparison would be fat people who have taken back the word "fat."
> 
> Not sure how it would be empowering to take on the word "diet," though.



Totally agree Tina....I just don't have that particular trigger...but if you call me mean or sadistic...oh Lord I will fall to pieces.

So really I guess it just comes down to each of our own comfort zones coming up.

Are the words "health" "weight loss" "healthy eating" or anything else associated with "dieting" considered trigger words as well...it would be helpful to know. We could create a kind of "dictionary/thesaurasus" to assist us in describing things so we don't hit triggers causing someone to feel very real emotional pain in someplace they felt was safe from that.


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## Tina (Mar 15, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Are the words "health" "weight loss" "healthy eating" or anything else associated with "dieting" considered trigger words as well...it would be helpful to know. We could create a kind of "dictionary/thesaurasus" to assist us in describing things so we don't hit triggers causing someone to feel very real emotional pain in someplace they felt was safe from that.



Hmmm... I dunno. I tend to be a person who, while I try to be sensitive and not hurt a person's feelings, doesn't like to have to walk on egg shells. I have no answers. 

Don't find you at all mean, though, and *certainly* not sadistic.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 16, 2006)

I can only speak for myself Red but honestly IF ONE MORE person comes at me with good intention of *HELPING ME* and wants to HELP me lose weight I'm gonna lose it.

I'm tired of it all. I come here to get away from all that. I just don't want to hear it anymore. I do what I like as far as eating and exercise goes. If I want help - I know how to ask for it. 

But I still am partial to redheads! LOL



RedHead said:


> Thank you to all who posted why the word "diet" is so abborhent to them. I was truly curious why it seemed to set some people off.
> 
> Beyond that point...what is in a word (I know it can hurt and dredge up things)...but isn't it something like the gay movement taking back queer?
> 
> ...


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## Dibaby35 (Mar 16, 2006)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I can only speak for myself Red but honestly IF ONE MORE person comes at me with good intention of *HELPING ME* and wants to HELP me lose weight I'm gonna lose it.
> 
> I'm tired of it all. I come here to get away from all that. I just don't want to hear it anymore. I do what I like as far as eating and exercise goes. If I want help - I know how to ask for it.
> 
> But I still am partial to redheads! LOL



Nobody wants to shove losing weight down your throat. But at least this way any discussion of healthy living is contained in one area. 

Anyways I really am enjoying this website and I think it's wonderful that there is a place where I can discuss my WLS with others and even though I'm still a BBW I don't have to worry about what people are thinking about me here. I don't think people realize how unusual that really truely is. Thank you Dimensions!


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## moonvine (Mar 16, 2006)

ripley said:


> I'm torn. On one hand, I agree that I could be healthier...almost everyone could have healthier habits. On the other hand, I enjoyed this being the one single place I could come to without having to hear that it would benefit me to lose weight. Just because it's couched as 'we don't want you to lose 200 lbs., we only want you to lose 50' isn't helping me much.



See..to me one of the main advantages of fat acceptance is the ability to focus on actually getting healthier and forming healthier habits WITHOUT worrying about what it may do to one's weight. And word to the rest of what you said.


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## moonvine (Mar 16, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Are the words "health" "weight loss" "healthy eating" or anything else associated with "dieting" considered trigger words as well...it would be helpful to know. We could create a kind of "dictionary/thesaurasus" to assist us in describing things so we don't hit triggers causing someone to feel very real emotional pain in someplace they felt was safe from that.



See, to me we are talking from two different viewpoints entirely. I enjoy discussing health. I enjoy discussing healthy eating. Because to me, health and healthy eating *DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH DIETING.*

In fact, I consider "dieting" the opposite of "healthy eating."


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## Vince (Mar 16, 2006)

It is clear "diet" is a bad word for most fat people. However, just because that word virtually stands for weight loss doesn't mean that is the definition of the word. We are all on various diets even if we do not think we are. Diets differ all around the world from culture to culture. There are people who diet to gain weight. Some diet to avoid some disease. Some diet because of religious beliefs. Bodybuilders diet for different reasons depending on what they are trying to do. All bodybuilders are dieting compared to the general public. It is endless. There are so many possible diets out there.

So, where is the forum for health and fitness? That is why I used the word challenge. WLS is discussed as a concession to size acceptance. I wonder when we will have a forum to discuss health and fitness? Just call it the Health and Fitness forum and allow diet discussions there.


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## Wagimawr (Mar 16, 2006)

Sounds like a plan; then we can fight about the word "diet" over there - I understand the emotional context some people may put the word in, but Vince is right - the real meaning of "diet" is simply what you eat - what you eat IS your diet

We can easily take that word back, just like we've taken back "fat" and said that 'no, it's not a pejorative (sp?) term; it's a description' - and proceed to gently correct people who can't figure that out.


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## moonvine (Mar 16, 2006)

Wagimawr said:


> We can easily take that word back, just like we've taken back "fat" and said that 'no, it's not a pejorative (sp?) term; it's a description' - and proceed to gently correct people who can't figure that out.



I don't think we've actually come anywhere close to taking back "fat". The fat acceptance movement remains a small one that few people have ever even heard of. Most people are horrified to hear me refer to myself as fat and think I have low self-esteem and even try to correct me ("no, you aren't, you're a BBW" - whatever. I'm fat).

I have no desire to take back the word "diet." Most people don't think diet is a negative descriptor, the way fat is. I don't understand how we even got started down this road, or why attempting to take back the word "diet" was even suggested.


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## mossystate (Mar 16, 2006)

I think it was suggested, because no one opinion is the 'correct' one.I understand allthe emotions concerning talking weight loss vs healthy eating..BUT..also seems like hair splitting is going on here.Unless someone is being mean and saying "I lost weight, that makes me a better person"..ummmm...Dims is the PERFECT place for people to hear about how others may be incorporating healthier foods into their diets.(OOOPS..the 'D' word)..or perhaps someone will say,"hey, I am going to walk up and down the hallway ten times today"
None of this says that fat is bad or ugly.This is not about losing weight, unless YOU personally decide this is best for you.When I go for a short walk and I see a fat person sitting at a bus stop, instead of walking to the next stop,I don't think "you really should get up and walk".I do not judge that way.I am more likely to judge a person who would want to deny another human being a bit of encouragement to simply...move, and that sentiment is out here.You want fat people to feel worse than they might already feel, deny them a voice...wait..that happens in mainstream America...hmmmmmm


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## moonvine (Mar 16, 2006)

mossystate said:


> I think it was suggested, because no one opinion is the 'correct' one.I understand allthe emotions concerning talking weight loss vs healthy eating..BUT..also seems like hair splitting is going on here.Unless someone is being mean and saying "I lost weight, that makes me a better person"..ummmm...Dims is the PERFECT place for people to hear about how others may be incorporating healthier foods into their diets.(OOOPS..the 'D' word)..or perhaps someone will say,"hey, I am going to walk up and down the hallway ten times today"
> None of this says that fat is bad or ugly.This is not about losing weight, unless YOU personally decide this is best for you.When I go for a short walk and I see a fat person sitting at a bus stop, instead of walking to the next stop,I don't think "you really should get up and walk".I do not judge that way.I am more likely to judge a person who would want to deny another human being a bit of encouragement to simply...move, and that sentiment is out here.You want fat people to feel worse than they might already feel, deny them a voice...wait..that happens in mainstream America...hmmmmmm



I most certainly do not want fat people to feel worse than they already feel, nor to deny them a voice (I am a fat person myself, and I sure don't want to feel "worse than I already feel", though I feel fine now, still why would I want to feel worse? ) As has been pointed out several times, they can go to the Weight Watchers board, or the Abundance Magazine board, or for that matter they can go to my coupon boards, or my cruise board, or my financial board, because ALL of these places allow/encourage weight loss discussions.

The whole point of HAES is that you decide to walk up and down the hall 10x, or whatever, INDEPENDENTLY OF WEIGHT LOSS. You don't walk up and down the hall 10x with the intent of losing weight (and then quit if you don't lose weight). You walk up and down the hall 10x because it improves your health. You eat healthy foods because it improves your health. That way, if you happen to lose weight doing these things, fine. If you don't, fine.


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## Elfcat (Mar 16, 2006)

Vince said:


> Exercise seems like a simple subject but it is as complex as any other part of medicine/science. There is a lot of information out there and there are good sources and not so good sources to look at. I can help the philosophy of exercise re fat people.
> 
> A fitness and diet forum at Dimensions would serve the fat people well. Such a forum would evolve and be as valuable as those contibuting and benefitting choose to make it. I know it goes against the stance Dimensions has had since the beginning. You do know that if you keep doing things exactly the same then nothing is ever going to change or be different.



Taking these words of yours to heart, I would ask you this.

What do you think of the Health At Every Size faction which is seeking to encourage healthy diet and appropriate exercise without making weight loss a priority? We heard last year that a study compared a fat-acceptance-centered fitness program with one centered on weight loss, and found much higher levels of compliance and better overall health results among the HAES program participants. I do think it is limiting for anyone to assume that health research is somehow against the stance of this community.


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## Elfcat (Mar 16, 2006)

I think that Vince is trying to find a way to deal with the ideological split which makes us here feel like the awakened in the story of The Matrix.

Maybe concern about the health of many in the "500+" club is well placed. The problem is that many such people got there in part because their bodies rebounded against countless diet plans previously put forward. The denial of the other side that their campaign of hatred and self-interested pity and outright discrimination has done nothing for the health of fat people other than possibly make it worse, and their insistence on such narrow definitions of ideal weight, makes an outright revolt the only thing strong enough to maintain a coherent resistance.

I'd like to see a study comparing the drug prescriptions held by those who are highly fat and always have been to those who were moderately or slightly fat earlier in life and dieted their way up. I'd like to see a study on the correlation of fatness with PTSD. I'm sure it would turn up to track pretty closely, given the abuse a lot of fat people take in their youth.

One thing is clear. There are highly adipose people who are very healthy, and others who are very sick. Is anyone trying to determine where the difference lies?

Does anyone dig into statistics like those from the Pima study? I heard that that study showed that US Pima have an "obesity" rate of 80% and diabetes rate of 60%, while the Mexican Pima have an "obesity" rate of 10% and a diabetes rate of nearly nothing. What stood out to me was that the Mexican Pima diabetes rate was not 7.5%. Rather, the Mexican Pima have an "obese" segment whose diabetes rate is nearly nothing.

This is the kind of thing the health specialists in our faction should be teasing out.

I suppose what I am saying is that Vince, like many of us, are in the position of explaining what the difference is between a vibrant, fierce and involved paradigm of fat-acceptance and "just giving up". I think the difference lies in embracing some of the very interesting things being discovered and talked about in the health community and seeing how they can apply to correcting the very real problems which are severely affecting the health of some fat people.

There is a lot out there to support the idea that something is killing fat people which is not inherent to their fatness.


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## Wagimawr (Mar 16, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I don't think we've actually come anywhere close to taking back "fat". The fat acceptance movement remains a small one that few people have ever even heard of. Most people are horrified to hear me refer to myself as fat and think I have low self-esteem and even try to correct me ("no, you aren't, you're a BBW" - whatever. I'm fat).
> 
> I have no desire to take back the word "diet." Most people don't think diet is a negative descriptor, the way fat is. I don't understand how we even got started down this road, or why attempting to take back the word "diet" was even suggested.


yeah, sorry...disregard...my brain was busted, methinks...


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## JerseyBigBoy (Mar 16, 2006)

Zoom said:


> If all the people were "living for the day", as Lennon put it, nobody would care about their weight, if it was too much or too little. Everyone would live happier lives.



Good point! Do you want to live 60 happy years or 80 miserbale years munching on carrot sticks and celery?


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## mossystate (Mar 16, 2006)

Elfcat said:


> Taking these words of yours to heart, I would ask you this.
> 
> What do you think of the Health At Every Size faction which is seeking to encourage healthy diet and appropriate exercise without making weight loss a priority? We heard last year that a study compared a fat-acceptance-centered fitness program with one centered on weight loss, and found much higher levels of compliance and better overall health results among the HAES program participants. I do think it is limiting for anyone to assume that health research is somehow against the stance of this community.


 Ummm, I never said my hallway had a scale at the end of it*W* I don't want to go to the places you mentioned,well, I don't know about the magazine you mentioned.I will hear all kinds of fat bashing .


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## mossystate (Mar 16, 2006)

Elfcat...SORRY!!!!..I am rather new here at the boards.I meant that message to go to MoonVine.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 18, 2006)

missaf said:


> Chiming in a little late here, sorry!
> 
> I'm not even 30 years old yet, and because of family history and a youthful indiscretionary knee injury (I was playing football in high school, tackle Freshman Football), I will need a knee replacement within the next ten years. The joint is falling apart, and I was told this was going to happen when I had the surgery done fifteen years ago. I was overweight then, but I was healthy. I'm overweight now, but I'm healthy. That may change, but it would definitely be nice to have a specific place to go to address these issues. Just because I'm fat doesn't mean that accidents don't happen, or hell, shit just doesn't happen. Skinny people get sick, too, it's just less appealing when a person of size has an issue they need to address in the main stream.
> 
> I don't think it's a contradiction for LadyRose to be feeling accepting of her size, but still wanting to maintain a pain free lifestyle. Dropping a few pounds isn't a denial of who she is, it's a matter of choice for her to be comfortable, which is what I'm sure we all want for each other. Being comfortable and maintaining an active way of life is important for everyone, and everyone struggles with that, despite their weight. If we remember that and as a community agree to support those who seek help rather than blaming their weight or suggesting weight loss as a be all end all solution, we can avoid the bad taste of the word "diet" on our tongues and still be of help to those around us.


 
Thank you so much missaf, I appreciate your thoughts and words. You understand that loosing a little weight so that you don't hurt is actually a good thing. Again, I thank you for defending me in this.


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## Ladyrose1952 (Mar 18, 2006)

RedHead said:


> Thank you to all who posted why the word "diet" is so abborhent to them. I was truly curious why it seemed to set some people off.
> 
> Beyond that point...what is in a word (I know it can hurt and dredge up things)...but isn't it something like the gay movement taking back queer?
> 
> ...


 
I totally agree with you on this Vickie! Lets come together and learn from this.


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## Sandie S-R (Mar 18, 2006)

Elfcat said:


> .....There is a lot out there to support the idea that something is killing fat people which is not inherent to their fatness.



Avery, as always, a most eloquent post. You hit a important point here, and one that needs to be addressed.


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## HappyFatChick (Mar 19, 2006)

Elfcat- I'm fascinated about the Mexican thing. I wonder if that is because we douse our food in pesticides, pump it up full of hormones, add tons of preservatives, and our tap water is virtually undrinkable? Doe anyone know if that is the case in Mexico too?


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