# Barabara Berg: Sexism in America



## superodalisque (Jan 3, 2010)

Barbara Berg's speech Sexism in America: Alive, Well and Ruining Our Future--

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/214109

what do you think and how do you think this relates, or doesn't to BBW issues?


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## katherine22 (Jan 3, 2010)

Thanks Felicia for the link. One area of research that I would like to see explored is the connection between sexism and class. Are poorer people more sexist due to lack of knowledge and the pervasive influence of television? Do the offensive musical lyrics against women emanate from musicians that grew up in poorer neighborhoods? What are the implications for women when social awareness is influenced by misogynist pop culture and music? Of course, musicians are a small part of a picture that includes hatred of feminism by young women.


If one's world view of women emanates from mass culture exclusively then one lacks a complete or complex view of women. A mantra that resonates is the idea that people who have power do not give it up easily. To .solve a problem requires defining it correctly, as long as women define themselves as inadequate then they do not need to look beyond themselves for the solution


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## Ernest Nagel (Jan 5, 2010)

<Bump> I thought this was a great talk with much food for thought. Sorry it didn't get more play. This seemed relevant and interesting, fwiw. http://holykaw.alltop.com/why-girls...mpaign=HolyKawToAlltop2010&utm_content=Alltop


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## superodalisque (Jan 5, 2010)

katherine22 said:


> Thanks Felicia for the link. One area of research that I would like to see explored is the connection between sexism and class. Are poorer people more sexist due to lack of knowledge and the pervasive influence of television? Do the offensive musical lyrics against women emanate from musicians that grew up in poorer neighborhoods? What are the implications for women when social awareness is influenced by misogynist pop culture and music? Of course, musicians are a small part of a picture that includes hatred of feminism by young women.
> 
> 
> If one's world view of women emanates from mass culture exclusively then one lacks a complete or complex view of women. A mantra that resonates is the idea that people who have power do not give it up easily. To .solve a problem requires defining it correctly, as long as women define themselves as inadequate then they do not need to look beyond themselves for the solution



you bring up some great issues here. and i think your focus on media and its influence on women without much access to education is important question. i don't know if it is really income based though. i have seen quite a few highly educated women accept a lot of things that are somewhat shocking in the name of mass culture. and i think that also has a lot to do as well with why so many fat women are so willing to accept as default that something is "wrong" or unattractive about thier fat bodies. maybe education reduces some of that but it doesn't innoculate against it completely. then you have to think about the public and private in that sense. some women know intellectually whats right and might even espouse it in public but what do they really do and feel privately and intimately? it would really be great to see a study about all of that. we would learn lot about how we function as women.


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## olwen (Jan 6, 2010)

katherine22 said:


> Thanks Felicia for the link. One area of research that I would like to see explored is the connection between sexism and class. Are poorer people more sexist due to lack of knowledge and the pervasive influence of television? Do the offensive musical lyrics against women emanate from musicians that grew up in poorer neighborhoods? What are the implications for women when social awareness is influenced by misogynist pop culture and music? Of course, musicians are a small part of a picture that includes hatred of feminism by young women.
> 
> 
> If one's world view of women emanates from mass culture exclusively then one lacks a complete or complex view of women. A mantra that resonates is the idea that people who have power do not give it up easily. To .solve a problem requires defining it correctly, as long as women define themselves as inadequate then they do not need to look beyond themselves for the solution



Those are good questions...I don't think lack of education is the reason persay, but lack of power. If some poor men do not feel empowered they will take it out on those they feel are weaker - women - and hold onto whatever bit of power they have carved out for themselves. I would think that education would play a key there only as a way for someone poor to move up and out of poverty. 

As for music, it is probably relevant, and it's true that in Rap's early history many of the MC's came from poor neighborhoods, that isn't always true these days and death metal/thrash are filled with women hating lyrics and always have been, and it's just assumed that metal musicians come from middle class families. 

I personally think it is more than just mass culture. I think it goes beyond that. Whatever ideas we have about gender roles are what fuels our behavior. Those ideas are learned at a very early age, and I think mass culture is mostly just a reflection of that. But why the feminist backlash? I think it's partly because people don't like change no matter if it's on a macro (world) level or a micro (individual) level. 

The delivery system counts for something too I think. Technology keeps changing - faster I think than our species can adapt to it. Using the new technology forces us to learn new behavior before we are ready to, and so we cling to old learned behaviors for comfort. 

Women just have to learn to own their power which I think can be difficult since we are raised from early on to believe we don't have any power - except sexual power, and even then only so much. Eh I'm rambling now, and starting to loose my train of thought cause I'm hungry, so I'll stop here.


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## katherine22 (Jan 7, 2010)

olwen said:


> Those are good questions...I don't think lack of education is the reason persay, but lack of power. If some poor men do not feel empowered they will take it out on those they feel are weaker - women - and hold onto whatever bit of power they have carved out for themselves. I would think that education would play a key there only as a way for someone poor to move up and out of poverty.
> 
> As for music, it is probably relevant, and it's true that in Rap's early history many of the MC's came from poor neighborhoods, that isn't always true these days and death metal/thrash are filled with women hating lyrics and always have been, and it's just assumed that metal musicians come from middle class families.
> 
> ...


.
You raise good points about power. The misconception about power is the idea that power is defined as control over others who are weaker. Real power is about understanding the limitations of power over others. We can control ourselves not other people unless we want to resort to brute force.

We still cannot have a conversation about gender role social construction without incurring a lot of anger from men and women. Some women are invested in the old notions of female gender since it requires less of them except to marry the right guy. The misconception prevails in accepting the idea that if one woman can run for president of the United States than that translates to power for all woman and that is not true. To say that 50% of university students are women does not diminish the amount of women in this country who work in the service sector for low wages. 

Felicia asked how the concerns of gender inequality relate to the concerns of BBW. It is difficult to speak in monoliths since all women have diverse experiences. What is remarkable is how young fat women can have the opportunity to converse on the BBW forum with some very interesting women and role models. Perhaps we are contributing to confidence building in this kiind of conversation.


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## chicken legs (Jan 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> Barbara Berg's speech Sexism in America: Alive, Well and Ruining Our Future--
> 
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/214109
> 
> what do you think and how do you think this relates, or doesn't to BBW issues?




As a female( bbw or not) in the USA I have to fully agree with Barbara Berg. Especially when is comes to money. I have/had to fight for raises, I had to fight for fair pricing on products (I.E. cars, renting apts, bringing men along to get a good price), I am currently fighting to raise my son because of it (being a unwed mother), I fought/fight for abortion rights (even against my own brothers), and thats just to name a few.

Sometimes, I feel like I am fighting against God "himself" in this "Christian" based society.


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## superodalisque (Jan 10, 2010)

sometimes i feel that the big deal that some make about BBWs being "more feminine" has something to do with us appearing more controllable. sometimes i think it can look like the fat version of the bound foot with the attraction to immobility, physical challenge, the possible challenges to independence for us. why are concerns about those things so easily and readily pushed aside often by people who'd never except that for themselves? is it odd to you that a lot of people who tend to push that are folks who are very much into fitness often extremely so?

another thing that makes me wonder is all of this focus of attention on FAs being the ONLY men attracted to us as a way to also keep BBWs in control and acting only within certain perimeters for people with a narrow preference. i personally feel that mindset encourages an emotional and romantic dependence discouraging women from finding partners who don't have the same views, keeping a small number of women in the "truly fat" range in a sort of limited area. when i look at it that way it makes me think of emotional abuse where its important to isolate women and then change how they think--making them dependent on the one person. it makes me think how often people who are abusive tend to use the "nobody else will want you" thing to keep women in line. i'm not saying this is always true but it often comes to my mind when i look at the insistance on that by some people and. i also wonder why women who easily agree to all of this really feel this is beneficial to SA as well as women's rights. i just can't seem to reconcile it all in my head. what you y'all feel about that? am i totally off base? do you ever wonder too?


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## superodalisque (Jan 10, 2010)

olwen said:


> Those are good questions...I don't think lack of education is the reason persay, but lack of power. If some poor men do not feel empowered they will take it out on those they feel are weaker - women - and hold onto whatever bit of power they have carved out for themselves. I would think that education would play a key there only as a way for someone poor to move up and out of poverty.
> 
> As for music, it is probably relevant, and it's true that in Rap's early history many of the MC's came from poor neighborhoods, that isn't always true these days and death metal/thrash are filled with women hating lyrics and always have been, and it's just assumed that metal musicians come from middle class families.
> 
> ...



in the early days of rap it wasn't anywhere near as mysogynistic as it is now. i'm not sure its fair to lay that at the feet of poor people. the old guys who did soul and were really from extreme poverty had very sweet lyrics. most of the really popular rappers today who are highly mysogynistic have lied about thier backgrounds. they've never been in gangs some even have MBAs etc... its just a big pretense. most of them come from middle class families because you have to have that kind of career ethic to make it and a lot of poor people need a whole lot more help and mentoring to get to that point just because they haven't always had the examples in front of them. a lot of record companies don't want to be bothered by that. sure some are poor and come from the hood but most don't and even those guys are exceptional people because thier work ethic has to be tremedous. that industry is very hard. so those are not some crazy lazy mean spirited people we are talking about. these are people who know better but do it anyway for a buck and because they actually enjoy putting down women. they remind me of the guys on wallstreet and how they treat women in many ways. but turn about is fair play because a lot of the women in rap and RB mainly write songs about how no good guys are and almost nothing about anyone being wonderful.


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## olwen (Jan 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> in the early days of rap it wasn't anywhere near as mysogynistic as it is now. i'm not sure its fair to lay that at the feet of poor people. most of the really popular rappers today who are highly mysogynistic have lied about thier backgrounds. they've never been in gangs some even have MBAs etc... its just a big pretense. most of them come from middle class families because you have to have that kind of career ethic to make it and a lot of poor people need a whole lot more help and mentoring to get tho that point just becaus they haven't alwys had the examples in front of them. a lot of record companies don't want to be bothered by that. sure some are poor and come from the hood but most don't and even those guys are exceptional people because thier work ethic has to be tremedous. that industry is very hard. so thse are not some crazy lazy mean spirited people we are talking about. these are people who know better but do it anyway for a buck and because they actually enjoy putting down women. they remind me of the guys on wallstreet and how they treat women in many ways.



Wait, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'm not sure...


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## chicken legs (Jan 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> sometimes i feel that the big deal that some make about BBWs being "more feminine" has something to do with us appearing more controllable. sometimes i think it can look like the fat version of the bound foot with the attraction to immobility, physical challenge, the possible challenges to independence for us. why are concerns about those things so easily and readily pushed aside often by people who'd never except that for themselves? is it odd to you that a lot of people who tend to push that are folks who are very much into fitness often extremely so?
> 
> another thing that makes me wonder is all of this focus of attention on FAs being the ONLY men attracted to us as a way to also keep BBWs in control and acting only within certain perimeters for people with a narrow preference. i personally feel that mindset encourages an emotional and romantic dependence discouraging women from finding partners who don't have the same views, keeping a small number of women in the "truly fat" range in a sort of limited area. when i look at it that way it makes me think of emotional abuse where its important to isolate women and then change how they think--making them dependent on the one person. it makes me think how often people who are abusive tend to use the "nobody else will want you" thing to keep women in line. i'm not saying this is always true but it often comes to my mind when i look at the insistance on that by some people and. i also wonder why women who easily agree to all of this really feel this is beneficial to SA as well as women's rights. i just can't seem to reconcile it all in my head. what you y'all feel about that? am i totally off base? do you ever wonder too?




My mom always adviced me to beware of your mate or those you keep close (male or female) of sabotaging your looks or opportunities. That goes for style and weight (either to skinny or to fat). Another thing I was taught is not to let your desire (for whatever) hinder your progress but to use it as fuel, because manipulating people come in all shapes and sizes and in both genders.


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## superodalisque (Jan 10, 2010)

olwen said:


> Wait, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'm not sure...



probably its more like we are supplementing each other lol


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## olwen (Jan 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> sometimes i feel that the big deal that some make about BBWs being "more feminine" has something to do with us appearing more controllable. sometimes i think it can look like the fat version of the bound foot with the attraction to immobility, physical challenge, the possible challenges to independence for us. why are concerns about those things so easily and readily pushed aside often by people who'd never except that for themselves? is it odd to you that a lot of people who tend to push that are folks who are very much into fitness often extremely so?
> 
> another thing that makes me wonder is all of this focus of attention on FAs being the ONLY men attracted to us as a way to also keep BBWs in control and acting only within certain perimeters for people with a narrow preference. i personally feel that mindset encourages an emotional and romantic dependence discouraging women from finding partners who don't have the same views, keeping a small number of women in the "truly fat" range in a sort of limited area. when i look at it that way it makes me think of emotional abuse where its important to isolate women and then change how they think--making them dependent on the one person. it makes me think how often people who are abusive tend to use the "nobody else will want you" thing to keep women in line. i'm not saying this is always true but it often comes to my mind when i look at the insistance on that by some people and. i also wonder why women who easily agree to all of this really feel this is beneficial to SA as well as women's rights. i just can't seem to reconcile it all in my head. what you y'all feel about that? am i totally off base? do you ever wonder too?



I've always taken the "more feminine" comment at face value. My male friends who aren't attracted to fat women still think women should have curves. To them more curves = more feminine. Since they as men are masculine and have no curves, woman is opposite. I think if FAs were really trying to be controlling they'd show it in other ways, telling a fat woman no one else would want her, for example, or exhibiting closeted behavior. Closeted men do want to control fat women. They can't do what they do without some form of control, but they can only keep that up as long as fat woman give into that behavior. Once she realizes what's up and finds her voice he can no longer control her. So in that regard it's up to us to be more demanding and stick to our guns. And anyway, any man who wouldn't respect a fat woman and wouldn't be sensitive to her physical needs and limitations isn't a true FA. 

As for FAs being the only men attracted to us...we all have had different experiences regarding that...as I've said before, in my own life I've only known one guy who was attracted to all shapes of women. In my experience guys just aren't attracted to ssbbw, bbw and thin women all at once. All of the guys I know are only attracted to women who are much much smaller than me. I don't think that by itself has anything to do with trying to control us or keep us in line. Attraction just is what it is. I would think that diet pill makers, food producers, insurance companies, and fashion designers would be more invested in controlling women than anyone else. 

It just makes sense to seek out partners from a pool of people who you know will be more likely to be attracted to you than the general population. It doesn't mean they all will be, but one's chances are higher that way. It's beneficial to SA when guys are out in the open about their preferences and when we don't make apologies for our bodies and our needs. When the world at large sees a fat person in a good relationship it goes a long way to killing the idea that fat people can't be loved.


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## olwen (Jan 10, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> probably its more like we are supplementing each other lol



Ah, s'all good then.


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