# 'Born' out of negativity?



## 1300 Class (May 21, 2008)

Not the biggest poster in the main board, hyde park is usually my scene, anyhoo, something has really began to strike me in the past while, that seems to be emerging as an almost common theme underlying or perhaps serves as the foundation stone to (well to me) a surprising number of threads. Basically, its the assumption or generalisation that _all_ fat people are victims of some broad spectrum hate conspiracy or equally generalised campaign by society _as a whole_, and that this victimisation is a constant throughout their daily lives. 

I can only postulate at how different a society I live in compared to the majority of the posters here (from the United States), but surely it can't be that different, because at times, I have trouble seeing where all this hate, torture and dislike emerges from and how it manifests itself in everyday life. 

Now, I'm not trying to belittle the stuggle or personal experiences or anything, I'm jsut trying to understand and draw a picture, that for what seems like many cases, the road to acceptance or tolerance or whatever it is was born out of a negative experience rather than a positive or neutral one.


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## 1300 Class (May 21, 2008)

In addition to, why is there now some sort of universal mentality, at least here, that dictates and applies us to the "us and them" scenario, the "_they_ hate us" or perhaps "_we_ suffer this" sort of thing that opens many posts. My original point being, is this issue grounded in reality or has it become a somewhat 'comforting' mythos that helps define the community and its members? With every step forward enforcing the mythos further and further, therefore defining us. 

In other words, have we reached the present point of the community or the site or whatever this thing is on the back of a negative wave (which arguably can led in probably many cases positive or enlightenment positions), or is the negative wave a facade that hid already established positive waves that are the foundation stones of the community?


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## Shosh (May 21, 2008)

Well mate I also live in Australia and as a fat woman I was constantly verbally abused and victimised by people in the community. I still feel traumatised about it to this day. I had a beer bottle thrown at me once. Fat hatred exists. I identify with many here as I have lived it. I feel safe here, as I feel that I am amongst friends and those who understand.

Maybe you don't feel it because as a fat man you get less vitriol thrown at you than a fat woman has to endure.

Just thinking out loud Jacky.

Hug to you meanwhile.
Shoshie


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## 1300 Class (May 21, 2008)

> Maybe you don't feel it because as a fat man you get less vitriol thrown at you than a fat woman has to endure.


Perhaps that is the case. I suppose trying to understand this great tapestry of a world is quite difficult.


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## mergirl (May 21, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Perhaps that is the case. I suppose trying to understand this great tapestry of a world is quite difficult.


i'm thin(ish) well i was really thin at school and i had "itchi coos" (itchy berries) put down my back..just cause.
Kids will find all sorts of reasons to bully other kids, which can affect them in later life..
I think the point is..when you grow up you expect the bullying to stop, and i think for a lot of big women/men it doesnt.. and thats the sad thing and why people feel victimised and will want to talk about that here. Its a bigger problem than bullying though, its also a social problem, ie presumptions made about people based on thier size, employers favoring thin workers over fat ones.. the list goes on..
Perhaps there are some small pockets or havens where there is no descrimination against fat people but they are few and far between and after reading some of the posts here a lot of people cant even escape bullying behaviour in thier own homes..

xmer


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## moore2me (May 21, 2008)

Coincidentally, yesterday I had a doctor's appt at a clinic I had not been to in several years. My memory bank told me that the last time I went, the experience had not been 100% positive. I put on my battle armor and prepared for assaults. However, I remember to enter the office with a smile and tried to put forward my best positive attitude. The doctor accidentally met me at the door, smiled, shook my hand, and was very friendly. He introduced his new nurses, who in turn were very courteous. 

I had to sit in the waiting room with a small child (about 6 years old) whose mother had left to go in an exam room. I smiled and spoke kindly to the little girl and commented on the book she was reading. She too answered and talked to me just like I was a regular human being. 

My point is I was expecting another "fat bashing" episode to occur. I was wrong. But, my memory of things past has unfortunately colored my everyday dealings and expectations that I "fear" interactions with people. Overcoming my prejudices is difficult. Like Susannah, I too have had a Coke thrown at me from a moving car and insults hurled at me from strangers across the aisles of a supermarket. But, my memory seems to more vividly record the bad things and this may be the essence of the problem Australian Lord is describing.

I learned from visiting the doctor today, that I should not focus on how people used to mistreat me. Things change. People change. And, thank God, I have changed. Hopefully, we change for the better. We get older, wiser, and learn how to deflect remarks that we don't like and how to ignore remarks we can't deflect. And more important, we learn to forgive people that have wronged us in the past, so that we can benefit by living in a more positive state of mind.


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## LillyBBBW (May 21, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Not the biggest poster in the main board, hyde park is usually my scene, anyhoo, something has really began to strike me in the past while, that seems to be emerging as an almost common theme underlying or perhaps serves as the foundation stone to (well to me) a surprising number of threads. Basically, its the assumption or generalisation that _all_ fat people are victims of some broad spectrum hate conspiracy or equally generalised campaign by society _as a whole_, and that this victimisation is a constant throughout their daily lives.
> 
> I can only postulate at how different a society I live in compared to the majority of the posters here (from the United States), but surely it can't be that different, because at times, I have trouble seeing where all this hate, torture and dislike emerges from and how it manifests itself in everyday life.
> 
> Now, I'm not trying to belittle the stuggle or personal experiences or anything, I'm jsut trying to understand and draw a picture, that for what seems like many cases, the road to acceptance or tolerance or whatever it is was born out of a negative experience rather than a positive or neutral one.



It was all the rage for a minute or two, for skinny celebrities to don a fat suit and go out in public. The first I recall was a freelance writer for Glamour Magzine I think it was -- at least 10 years ago. She wore the fat suit for a week and kept a diary. The difference in general attitude detected from people was dramatic. She had daily encounters with people, sometimes when she wasn't even looking for them. At the end of her week she was nearly depleated of her humanity due to general difference in attitude from people , something subtle but something she had never been acustomed to. She went to meet a gay friend of hers at a bar. She walked in wearing her fat suit and some classically handsome muttered a rude comment about her as she passed. At the stroke of 7 she was able to take the fat suit off and could.not.wait to get out of it. She decloaked in the ladies room and as she and her gay friend left the bar they passed by the same guy she passed to get in. The guy began to come on to her and she was so disgusted with him whereas before she would have been flattered and fluttering. 

The truth is lookism is alive and well everywhere which transcends weight. They've had television shows where they showed women broken down at the side of the road and men by the dozens pulled over to help out the blonde but no one stopped to help the plain looking woman in the mom jeans. I've personally witnessed attractive, put together people being treated like crap by plainer folks on site just to be spitefull. I get treated better overall and make more friends when I wear makeup and extensions, something I rarely do. 

If you are clueless enough about all this to have to ask count yourself lucky Jack.


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## Carl1h (May 21, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> If you are clueless enough about all this to have to ask count yourself lucky Jack.



It seems to me that what he is getting at, isn't whether bad things happen, but rather if it is as pervasive as it is sometimes made to seem, and if this oppression is what defines us as people.

For my part, yes, I have been yelled at, people have thrown things from cars, I have been criticized, humiliated, ostracized, passed over, put down, told off, pitied and dismissed. I know what it is to be outside what society thinks you should be, because that's where I am. And I do count myself lucky.

I have never been crucified on a barbwire fence in a snowstorm, drug into the street and lit on fire by a jeering mob, chained to the bumper of a truck and dragged to death, senselessly run over by a drunk driver, thrown into prison for the crime of wanting to be free, burned at the stake for not being properly submissive, hacked to death in front of my family by machete wielding thugs, disappeared by my political adversaries, had a mob of hooded men drag me from my home and hang me as an example to others like me, beaten to death by my own parents or spouse, had my house destroyed in an act of war, lost everything I had to a natural disaster, stoned to death by my own family over some perceived dishonor... or any of the other countless ways mankind has found to bring misery to itself. And I do count myself lucky.

When I turn my tap, clean water comes out. When I flush my toilet, the waste is carried away. When I flip my light switch the light comes on. When I go to my cabinets and my fridge I find food there to eat. And I do count myself lucky.

I work as a crossing guard at an elementary school, which means that as a 500 lb man I put myself in front of hundreds of children and adults every morning and again every afternoon. Some kids and some adults need a week or two to adjust but in the end, I'm just the crossing guard, as much a fixture as teachers and the school buses. I've been there five years and can count the times I have heard a derisive comment about my size on one hand. I can't count the number of times I have ran into someone who greeted me with a friendly smile and said they see me all the time out at the crosswalk. And I do count myself lucky.

I've stood outside after an afternoon rain, with the sun peeking through the clouds making an oddly clear, slantwise light and everything seemed impossibly clean and new and marveled at the brief beauty of the moment. And I count myself very lucky indeed.

The bad things I have suffered do not alone say who I am. I am defined by the adversities I face, by the horrors I am spared, by the happiness and privilege I sometimes take for granted and by the odd moment of pure wonder and beauty.


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## LillyBBBW (May 21, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> It seems to me that what he is getting at, isn't whether bad things happen, but rather if it is as pervasive as it is sometimes made to seem, and if this oppression is what defines us as people.
> 
> For my part, yes, I have been yelled at, people have thrown things from cars, I have been criticized, humiliated, ostracized, passed over, put down, told off, pitied and dismissed. I know what it is to be outside what society thinks you should be, because that's where I am. And I do count myself lucky.
> 
> ...




Look, My mother used to walk a 4 mile country road barefoot in the snow uphill both ways carrying her little brother on her back to go to school and she considered herself lucky too. That doesn't mean we're all supposed to pretend that adversity doesn't exist or there isn't room for improvement. So it's not as bad for you as is seems? Good. As for the rest of us we'd like to examine things in black and white and contemplate a better way.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 21, 2008)

You know what the OP made me think? One thing - "Is it really that bad out there for fat people?"

Yeah - it's really that bad. In my life - I've been fat since I was 7 years old. Over 300 lbs since I was about 15. Things I've had to deal with in my life becasue I was fat:


stones thrown at me
being spit at
being beat up
being pushed down stairs
being moo'd at
bottles being thrown at me
people yelling disgusting things at me
being verbally abused in public
someone telling me what to eat in a restuarant
family telling me I would neer be loved
over and over being told I'm ugly
etc., etc., etc.

So YOU tell ME - is all that really that bad?? See, cause I could be exaggerating.


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## Keb (May 21, 2008)

My daily life isn't so very bad. I'm lucky to have a loving family (that still worries about my weight) and to have had some great opportunities in my life.

Even so, when I'm job hunting I'm always afraid people will assume I'm stupid and lazy and not hire me because of my weight. People approach me out of nowhere, strangers and friends and relatives, to tell me about their miracle cure for obesity. I became afraid to admit I had a crush on a guy in high school for fear my peers would torment him--because it had happened. I fear never finding love or building the family I want to have, because of my weight--and then I fear finding love, only for my weight (whether I lose it or not!). I worry about the plethora of diseases that the media are constantly shoving in my face, and with both of my parents now diabetic I'm more scared than ever.

Those fears are a daily reality for me, even if I'm not being bullied every moment. The demons get into your head and don't go away, if they're thrown at you enough.

The ratio of voices telling me "Your life would suddenly be perfect if you only had a BMI of 20!" to the ratio of voices saying "Your life is okay now, and will only get better" is about 9 kagillion to three. (Three cuz I'm an optimist. It'd be one if I weren't, and 1/2 if I were a pessimistic person.)

There's so much negativity concerning our bodies, and fat in particular, that it's hard for us not to come from a negative point. But it's a very positive thing to be able to openly discuss those fears and concerns and dreams with others who know where they are coming from.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 21, 2008)

mergirl said:


> Kids will find all sorts of reasons to bully other kids, which can affect them in later life..
> I think the point is..when you grow up you expect the bullying to stop, and i think for a lot of big women/men it doesnt..
> xmer



Make that 'all big men and women'; some get it worse than others, but it happens to us all. In fact, make that 'all men and women' while you're at it; plenty of people have bullied (or tried to bully) me, and every day I see somebody trying to bully somebody else in some way: if it's not about body size, it's about race, or sex, or nationality, or age, or hair color, or clothes, or education, or... The fact is that humans are social primates, and that means we arrange ourselves into a pecking order and spend our lives trying to find out whom it's okay to bully, and who gets to bully us. The bullying may get a little subtler when we grow up, but it's still there and always will be: it's part of being human. The only person I know of who didn't get bullied regularly was Robinson Crusoe. And he bullied Friday.


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## moore2me (May 21, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> It seems to me that what he is getting at, isn't whether bad things happen, but rather if it is as pervasive as it is sometimes made to seem, and if this oppression is what defines us as people.
> 
> For my part, yes, I have been yelled at, people have thrown things from cars, I have been criticized, humiliated, ostracized, passed over, put down, told off, pitied and dismissed. I know what it is to be outside what society thinks you should be, because that's where I am. And I do count myself lucky.
> 
> ...




Carl1h, I really like you take on life. I keep trying to tell my peeps that sure we have bad stuff happen to us, but there are a lot of worse things in this old world.  We are sort of in the middle of Dr. Feelgood's pecking list, but not that it matters a whit of difference. As you say, we should be thankful for what we have and try to be positive as we react to others. That will in turn help how we are treated and sure as heck make us feel better about ourselves. But guys, this doesn't come easy. You have to work at being positive and work good public relations. I know it's hard after being tormented, and going back and putting yourself out as a target again is scary. But, it is to your benefit to do this and your ego will be better from the way you handle the little "speed bumps" in the highway by putting them in a proper perspective.


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## olwen (May 21, 2008)

You must spread some rep around before giving it to Carlh1 again.

I liked that a lot Carl. It made me smile. It got me thinking about a thing that happened this past saturday. It was a bit warm but rainy here that day and I was wearing a dress, so the batman tatoo on my leg was visible. I'm walking down 7th avenue with some friends and some teens yell out "Fatgirl. You're a Fatgirl you know that." My two fat friends just rolled their eyes and said "What assholes, keep walking." I turned around and looked at em, shrugged my shoulders and kept walking. It didn't faze me. It just didn't faze me and I didn't care. Who cares what a bunch of hooligans say? It's those sorts of things I've learned to shrug off. My energy is better spent on something more significant. You're right in that there's a lot of stuff I'm grateful I don't have to worry about.


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## LuvBug (May 21, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> It seems to me that what he is getting at, isn't whether bad things happen, but rather if it is as pervasive as it is sometimes made to seem, and if this oppression is what defines us as people.
> 
> For my part, yes, I have been yelled at, people have thrown things from cars, I have been criticized, humiliated, ostracized, passed over, put down, told off, pitied and dismissed. I know what it is to be outside what society thinks you should be, because that's where I am. And I do count myself lucky.
> 
> ...




(Beautiful!) Life takes several perspectives to exists as a complete person.


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## 1300 Class (May 22, 2008)

> It seems to me that what he is getting at, isn't whether bad things happen, but rather if it is as pervasive as it is sometimes made to seem, and if this oppression is what defines us as people.


Thats nailed it in one. That is what I meant to say, thank you for putting far more elegantly. 



> If you are clueless enough about all this to have to ask count yourself lucky Jack.


Sure you dug you nails in far enough with that one?


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## LillyBBBW (May 22, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Thats nailed it in one. That is what I meant to say, thank you for putting far more elegantly.
> 
> 
> Sure you dug you nails in far enough with that one?



I wasn't digging. For many of us the answer is obvious, simple and plain based on our expereiences. If you've not had these experiences then you _should_ consider yourself lucky. Sorry if it seemed harsh.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 22, 2008)

I was called "It" for two years of my very young impressionable life. My humanity was taken away from me before I even fully knew what it was to be human. I hate when people pass off childhood abuse (yes it's abuse) as, "Kids are cruel" yeah we know, blah blah blah..._IT'S UNACCEPTABLE! _Childhood is when the world you live in shapes who you are. Contending with abuse of any sorta will change you as a person and how you see others. As an adult, things are less "in your face" but all it takes is a snicker, an astonished stare, or a pitying shake of the head to put me right back at "It." 

Bottom line, being fat may not be or have been torturous for every fat person. But for those who do suffer the abuse...please, don't dismiss it.


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## 1300 Class (May 22, 2008)

> But for those who do suffer the abuse...please, don't dismiss it.


I think thats important, and that it is abundantly clear that it should never be dismissed, and nobody was suggesting it should be dismissed. 

Basically, my point being that some, with nothing precipitated assume that all fat people have 'lived their lives' or automatically feel their degree of segregation, hatred, torment and torture, which is most definatly not the case. 

A sort of 'tribal sense of community'.


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## Bagalute (May 22, 2008)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I hate when people pass off childhood abuse (yes it's abuse) as, "Kids are cruel" yeah we know, blah blah blah..._IT'S UNACCEPTABLE! _Childhood is when the world you live in shapes who you are.



Exactly. Studies have shown that even 6 year olds are already prejudiced against fat people. Among the words they associated with obese people were "lying, cheating, ugly, stupid, sloppy, lazy". I think this shows once more how deeply rooted the fat-hate really is - and that there are many angles to aim at when it comes to Size acceptance.


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## Shosh (May 23, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> You know what the OP made me think? One thing - "Is it really that bad out there for fat people?"
> 
> Yeah - it's really that bad. In my life - I've been fat since I was 7 years old. Over 300 lbs since I was about 15. Things I've had to deal with in my life becasue I was fat:
> 
> ...




Yeah me too Sandie. It is that bloody bad. I lived it myself.


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## ripley (May 23, 2008)

Yes, fat abuse is part of the fabric of many of our lives. Just as being fat is. Why is it a bad thing if it drives us to size-acceptance? Why is it so bad to drag it out into the light and get some comfort from people who can understand how it feels?


Does it define us? No. But being fat does define a part of us, and unfortunately, being fat often garners abuse, bias, and discrimination. 

Lilly and Nancy say it best...it depletes your humanity and makes you an "it" to suffer systematic abuse and prejudice. It doesn't stop when we are adults. Fat people are still paid less. We get compromised health care* (if we get any at all). So are we just all gloomy and whiny? I don't think so. Instead of minimizing these things, we need to look at them in the harsh light of day and then work to change them.






*Research on health care workers attitudes about fat people confirms that doctors and nurses report finding fat patients repulsive and would rather not touch them, that they attribute fatness to lack of self-control and emotional problems, and that they describe fat patients as worthless, awkward, ugly, and non-compliant (Brownell et al. 2005).


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## revolutionman (May 23, 2008)

I think perhaps I'm in the wrong place. I despise hypersensitive people, and I'm seeing a lot of it here. I'm not gonna point fingers and say names, but blaming a little teasing and bullying for all of your lifes woes, is a prime example of everything that is wrong with society these days. Grow up and move on, and if you can't you have a whole lot more wrong with you than being fat. You probably need a good deal of therapy to help you learn to let sht go.

I've also noticed, people who have the mentality of the perpetual victem, will be perpetually victemized. Grow some balls, get loud, get nasty throw some of that extra weight around, don't just sulk and cry. thats fking pathetic. You carve out your own damn lot in life no matter how much you weigh, or what color your skin is or anything else. A person who carries themselves in a respectable manner, will get the respect they inspire.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 25, 2008)

If I tell this guy to get bent will I get a warning??





revolutionman said:


> I think perhaps I'm in the wrong place. I despise hypersensitive people, and I'm seeing a lot of it here. I'm not gonna point fingers and say names, but blaming a little teasing and bullying for all of your lifes woes, is a prime example of everything that is wrong with society these days. Grow up and move on, and if you can't you have a whole lot more wrong with you than being fat. You probably need a good deal of therapy to help you learn to let sht go.
> 
> I've also noticed, people who have the mentality of the perpetual victem, will be perpetually victemized. Grow some balls, get loud, get nasty throw some of that extra weight around, don't just sulk and cry. thats fking pathetic. You carve out your own damn lot in life no matter how much you weigh, or what color your skin is or anything else. A person who carries themselves in a respectable manner, will get the respect they inspire.


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## Shosh (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> I think perhaps I'm in the wrong place. I despise hypersensitive people, and I'm seeing a lot of it here. I'm not gonna point fingers and say names, but blaming a little teasing and bullying for all of your lifes woes, is a prime example of everything that is wrong with society these days. Grow up and move on, and if you can't you have a whole lot more wrong with you than being fat. You probably need a good deal of therapy to help you learn to let sht go.
> 
> I've also noticed, people who have the mentality of the perpetual victem, will be perpetually victemized. Grow some balls, get loud, get nasty throw some of that extra weight around, don't just sulk and cry. thats fking pathetic. You carve out your own damn lot in life no matter how much you weigh, or what color your skin is or anything else. A person who carries themselves in a respectable manner, will get the respect they inspire.




Who is sulking? I was just relating my experiences. I think you are fucking pathetic if you have to come here with the grand sum of 13 posts under your belt and make those who have spoken out here feel bad about themselves.


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## revolutionman (May 25, 2008)

I cant seem to find an eye rolling smiley.

This is exactly the sort of hypersensitivity I'm talking about. I dodn't name a single name or point a damn finger, I made a general statement and the guilty parties jumped out to defend themselves and their weak behavior. if you were so assertive and defensive in real life people wouldnt sht all over you.

I'm not sure how quantity of my posts reflects on the validity of my oppinion. Maybe you can elaborate.

I'm not trying to make people feel bad about themselves, and if people do, thats their issue with hypersensitivity and its got little at all to do with me.


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## olwen (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> I cant seem to find an eye rolling smiley.
> 
> This is exactly the sort of hypersensitivity I'm talking about. I dodn't name a single name or point a damn finger, I made a general statement and the guilty parties jumped out to defend themselves and their weak behavior. if you were so assertive and defensive in real life people wouldnt sht all over you.
> 
> ...



Dude, it has to do with you if you inspire a defensive reaction.

Being hypersensitive is one thing, but being traumatized is another. One can be defensive about a comment about one's fat ass if one genuinely has issues with one's ass, but to have that comment made and be accompanied by being spat at, assaulted with rocks or coke cans or pushed down a flight of stairs is traumatic. Do you see the difference? It's not as simple as getting over it. It is something that becomes a part of you and has to be dealt with. It can be painful. So just expecting everyone to grow a pair, while being a valid opinion is just not always realistic. How mentally healthy is the person really who always "man's up" and sucks it in? There are times when that attitude is appropriate and times when it is not. Learn to know the difference.


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## Shosh (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> I cant seem to find an eye rolling smiley.
> 
> This is exactly the sort of hypersensitivity I'm talking about. I dodn't name a single name or point a damn finger, I made a general statement and the guilty parties jumped out to defend themselves and their weak behavior. if you were so assertive and defensive in real life people wouldnt sht all over you.
> 
> ...



Guilty parties? Here is the eye rolling smiley that you wanted.
What prey tell are we guilty of? We are having a general discussion about what it is to be fat in society today, and the kind of abuse that we have had to endure.
Maybe I will be more assertive if you can be less passive aggressive.  Yay the eye rolling smiley again.


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## revolutionman (May 25, 2008)

> How mentally healthy is the person really who always "man's up" and sucks it in?




Not to offend the poor woman that was pushed down the stairs, but manning up is 100% healthier than lying at the bottom of a stairwell weeping.

I understand that you feel bad about things that have been done to you in the past, I took my fair share of abuse as a fat lil kid, but god damnit, you gotta live, and not at the whims of the kinda assholes who get their rocks off messing with people. Allowing people to have that sort of control over your life, your frame of mind, your emotions, you may as well be a hemopheliac.

I can't comiserate with depressed victems, its not me. Best i can do is offer solutions. Something that might help, some times telling people shit they dont wanna hear, or shit that no one else has the balls to tell them is the best therapy.


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## ripley (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> I can't comiserate with depressed victems, its not me. Best i can do is offer solutions. Something that might help, some times telling people shit they dont wanna hear, or shit that no one else has the balls to tell them is the best therapy.



Dr. Phil? Is that you??!?


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## revolutionman (May 25, 2008)

theres no passive in my agressive TYVM.



> What prey tell are we guilty of?



You felt compelled to defend yourself against a statement that was not directed at you. Thats the action of a guilty conscience. You felt that my statements applied to you, thats why your responded the way you did. You probably think of yourself in some of the terms I used. Thats unfortunate.



> Dr. Phil? Is that you??!?



make light all you want my friend. Shit rolls down hill.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 25, 2008)

What's your damage Heather???




revolutionman said:


> theres no passive in my agressive TYVM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ripley (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> make light all you want my friend. Shit rolls down hill.



Especially when you're shoveling it as fast as you can, my friend.


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## Shosh (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> theres no passive in my agressive TYVM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So it's a guilty conscience now? Guilty of what? Don't tell me how I think of myself and don't patronize me.


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## olwen (May 25, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> Not to offend the poor woman that was pushed down the stairs, but manning up is 100% healthier than lying at the bottom of a stairwell weeping.
> 
> I understand that you feel bad about things that have been done to you in the past, I took my fair share of abuse as a fat lil kid, but god damnit, you gotta live, and not at the whims of the kinda assholes who get their rocks off messing with people. Allowing people to have that sort of control over your life, your frame of mind, your emotions, you may as well be a hemopheliac.
> 
> I can't comiserate with depressed victems, its not me. Best i can do is offer solutions. Something that might help, some times telling people shit they dont wanna hear, or shit that no one else has the balls to tell them is the best therapy.



I agree that a person has to live despite the ills that befall them. And believe me I do live it up quite well actually. But always being stoic about the bs that happens is sometimes the same as not coping with the bs that happens. Being able to show emotion isn't a sign of weakness either. I both can and can't understand why a depressed person would engender such disgust in you. I think about domestic violence victims...Why let someone treat you that way? It used to disgust me. But as I've gotten older and gained more wisdom, I can empathize with why. Do I always agree with that behavior? No. But I can understand it.

I think what this thread is as much about how to cope with various abuses as it is about how much of a victim one lets one self be. There is a difference between being an actual victim and looking/expecting to always be the victim. And no, not every fat person looks to be or expects to be the victim.


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## 1300 Class (May 25, 2008)

> revolutionman


This is precisely the slanging match I was hoping wouldn't devolve into.


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## Theresa48 (May 25, 2008)

I wonder why some feel compelled to "belittle" or "negate" the experiences of others by telling them to suck it up like a man? When I read the posts from the dear women and men here that I have grown quite fond of through reading what they have had to say, relating their very real experiences, I never once thought "victim." Since when is it cause to berate someone for simply replying to a request for information? I do not post often...shyness or not feeling I have much to add to what has been said...but I do feel for my sisters who have had to endure the madness of a society that thinks it is quite okay to call them names, to belittle them, to strike out at them physically. The teenagers who do this, the grown adults who think it is quite right of them to inform others of what they feel are "faults" are mean spirited, self-centered big mouths. 

I am 60 years old and have lived most of my life as a very fat woman. I have had a successful teaching career (elementary level.) I have had a somewhat weird marriage and weirder divorce. I am living with a pretty nice guy. I try to mind my own business when I am out and about. I have been called names. I have been hurt by the very ones who say they love me most. I keep on keeping on...which is what I thought the others were implying. Yep, they have been tormented but they are leading their lives as best they can. They are heroes in my book. Yep, I am a very sappy person. And, my glass does tend to the half full...not empty.


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## Carl1h (May 26, 2008)

This "man up" stuff is pretty much the same stuff that I got as a kid from my father and, no doubt, lots of other boys got, and are getting, from their own fathers. There is something to the idea of moving on past the physical and mental trials we face, I think that's not something to be missed, and sometimes tough love is the right thing. But you have to make sure that you don't take the tough love/man up stance for the wrong reasons. Don't tell someone to man up just because you don't like watching someone cry. Maybe, when you feel uncomfortable watching someone cry, YOU need to man up and accept that what your seeing makes you uncomfortable, that it makes you feel bad, that through empathy you feel the hurt that they are feeling, and even though you don't like that feeling, you need to do something besides getting angry and going right to telling them to man up. Their pain isn't about your comfort. Get it?

Saying that it's better to man up than sit there crying is a false dichotomy, there is no need to choose between crying over your pain and getting over it. You can sit at the bottom of the stairs and cry or curse or whatever you want and then get up and then do whatever you need to do carry on your life however you can. One does not preclude the other. You can get up and look the assholes in the eyes and say, "is that all you got, punk?" and then go home and cry and feel bad and whatever else. Tough first then emotional or emotional first and then tough or tough emotional tough emotional emotional, or whatever. Crying and complaining and whining or whatever words you want to describe the "unmanly" emotional display is, for a lot of people, part of getting over trauma. Crying exists in human beings because it has a purpose (sorry to get evolutionary on you all), it is cathartic, it helps people deal with bad things that happen to them. Taking crying out of your repertoire because crying is somehow for sissies is not really all that smart or healthy. I understand perfectly well that crying in public isn't really something that most men are willing to do, a tough stance goes a long way toward keeping the human jackals off of one, but that doesn't mean that one can't express oneself at other, more private times.

I'm going on too long here, but this is a point I would really like understood, when you criticize someone for for not being tough, when you say you hate hypersensitivity (and you are really just exaggerating what is regular sensitivity),when you tell someone to man up, are you really trying to help other people or just make an environment where you don't have to deal with the empathy you feel for people in genuine distress. Nobody, men least of all, likes the helpless feeling of seeing someone crying about something that you can't fix, but telling someone to stop suffering because of your own helpless or painful feelings is a basic dishonesty. Make your own gut check and be honest about your motives, not selfish.


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## Forgotten_Futures (May 26, 2008)

*Obligatory, "conceived of the midichlorians" comment*

Honestly, I think the human habit of fat bashing is predominantly a fear reaction, combined with either a transposition or translation issue...

By which I mean, most people fear fat, fear getting fat, fear being fat, and so by extension hate FAT. For some reason, they translate or transpose that if a person is fat, they are FAT, and therefore are to be hated.

Just my thoughts.


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## moore2me (May 26, 2008)

*Okay boys - here's the scoop - some of us are sissies, we do not want to grow a pair of "balls" and we do not think crying is a bad thing. We are girls. Girls do this stuff.* Girls react different to abuse and confrontation - at least we did for a long time. Have you ever been play fighting and swung at a girl? She probably covers her face. Do the same thing to a guy and he probably starts to swing back at you. Girls are taught from early age to be passive and "ladylike". It is very difficult to overcome this conditioning. 

That is part of the reason when I am accosted by fat bashers, I have the instinct to retreat. I must work to over-ride this conditioning and become the aggressor. This conditioning is not as strong in today's society as it was 10 or 20 years ago. My mother taught me the best she knew how & that was to be a lady and not get into fights or cause a scene in public. In today's world girls have heroines and role models who are more aggressive women and stand up in ways that our mothers never, ever considered doing. Just look at movies with super aggressive heroines such as *Resident Evil, Underworld, and Aeon Flux*. So, give us time, we are growing & learning and maybe one of these days we will be able to better defend our honor.


*And congratulations are in order. This is my 2000th post!!!*


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## revolutionman (May 26, 2008)

> Okay boys - here's the scoop - some of us are sissies, we do not want to grow a pair of "balls" and we do not think crying is a bad thing. We are girls. Girls do this stuff. Girls react different to abuse and confrontation - at least we did for a long time. Have you ever been play fighting and swung at a girl? She probably covers her face. Do the same thing to a guy and he probably starts to swing back at you. Girls are taught from early age to be passive and "ladylike". It is very difficult to overcome this conditioning.
> 
> That is part of the reason when I am accosted by fat bashers, I have the instinct to retreat. I must work to over-ride this conditioning and become the aggressor. This conditioning is not as strong in today's society as it was 10 or 20 years ago. My mother taught me the best she knew how & that was to be a lady and not get into fights or cause a scene in public. In today's world girls have heroines and role models who are more aggressive women and stand up in ways that our mothers never, ever considered doing. Just look at movies with super aggressive heroines such as Resident Evil, Underworld, and Aeon Flux. So, give us time, we are growing & learning and maybe one of these days we will be able to better defend our honor.



Thats the kinda response I have been waiting for. Some logic, some reason, some good sense, a bgood deal of perspective, instead of rediculously over reactive defensive BS. Theres definately a lack of understanding on my part, and I definately appreciate you taking the time to outline it for me.

I don't know how it is to be a fat woman, I'm a fat guy, I know its easier for me, but I really don't know how much easier. Women have a tendency to say men have it easier in a lot of different situations, and a lot of times its really not true. maybe when it comes to fat, its the real deal.

Also I live in the US, fat people are much more common, and while there are some biases, there are plenty of fat ass rich people so it must not be that bad. Some of the more heinous claims of abuse seem to be coming from outside the US. maybe its different elsewhere in the world. Perhaps there is less tolerance.



> This is precisely the slanging match I was hoping wouldn't devolve into.


 I'm sorry if you feel like I did that to your thread, but but the way i see it, is that i posted an oppinion, albeit a strong one, and the people who had immature responses to my oppinion are the ones who degenerated your thread.

i know forums can become "Cliquey" and you might not wanna call your friends on their sht, but I'm not gonna take the blame either.



> So it's a guilty conscience now? Guilty of what? Don't tell me how I think of myself and don't patronize me.



*pratronizes you*


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## Donna (May 26, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> I'm sorry if you feel like I did that to your thread, but but the way i see it, is that i posted an oppinion, albeit a strong one, and the people who had immature responses to my oppinion are the ones who degenerated your thread.
> 
> i know forums can become "Cliquey" and you might not wanna call your friends on their sht, but I'm not gonna take the blame either.
> 
> ...



Hey dude....take your own advice and *man up*. Generally, most of the strong manly men I know don't whine that someone who posts an opposing opinion (only one P in opinion, by the way---how's that for patronizing?) to theirs is responding immaturely. Calling names is weak, you know, not very tough. 

I do think you have stumbled across a new word, though. You might want to have pratronize added to the Urban Dictionary with the definition, "to make oneself appear to be a prat."


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## revolutionman (May 26, 2008)

Where was I whining, appologizing and offering perspective is whining?? Thats ridiculous.

Accurately describing some ones behavior is not name calling. More hypersensitive crap. 

And congratulations on your ability to find typos. Well done.


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## Sugar (May 26, 2008)

My only thought on this was a quote I read not too long ago..


We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. ~ Anais Nin


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## Sugar (May 26, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> Where was I whining, appologizing and offering perspective is whining?? Thats ridiculous.
> 
> Accurately describing some ones behavior is not name calling. More hypersensitive crap.
> 
> And congratulations on your ability to find typos. Well done.



I don't believe you're being hypersenstive I believe you're being crass. However, our dictionarys may be different. It's one thing to feel that people are hypersensitive (I agree there are some around). It's another to put your opinions in such a way that even the most bold outspoken person just shakes their head and questions if there is still such a thing a panache?

Regardless of how well based in facts your opinions may be...call someone else's opinion "crap" you'll likely find you've been dismissed.

I can say with certainty you will _always_ get more with honey as opposed to vinegar...even good 20 year balsamic. And no that doesn't mean candy coat or lie, that means find some better words to express yourself and you just might be heard out.


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## Tina (May 26, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Not the biggest poster in the main board, hyde park is usually my scene, anyhoo, something has really began to strike me in the past while, that seems to be emerging as an almost common theme underlying or perhaps serves as the foundation stone to (well to me) a surprising number of threads. Basically, its the assumption or generalisation that _all_ fat people are victims of some broad spectrum hate conspiracy or equally generalised campaign by society _as a whole_, and that this victimisation is a constant throughout their daily lives.


Victims? No. I reject that categorization, but do feel that yes, society as a whole dislikes, fears and disrespects fat people. The evidence of it is everywhere. I don't let it stop me or make me fearful, but I also choose not to bury my head in the sand and ignore reality.


> I can only postulate at how different a society I live in compared to the majority of the posters here (from the United States), but surely it can't be that different, because at times, I have trouble seeing where all this hate, torture and dislike emerges from and how it manifests itself in everyday life.


Just because you don't see it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And your own society is pretty fat-hating itself, from all of the various articles I've read.



> Now, I'm not trying to belittle the stuggle or personal experiences or anything, I'm jsut trying to understand and draw a picture, that for what seems like many cases, the road to acceptance or tolerance or whatever it is was born out of a negative experience rather than a positive or neutral one.


AL, I personally don't care as much as the whys of how a person becomes accepting and tolerant (of themselves and others) as much as I value that they do. There are too many stories of fat people who have lived lives filled, to one degree or another, with negation and disdain based upon their size. Why would you want to deny it, or care more that people are coming to acceptance and tolerance in ways you do not like? Denying that most fat people have experienced some sort of pain and/or insult because of their size won't make it untrue.

Also, I do not think that the negative cancels out the positive, nor vice-versa. They are allowed, and do, exist together. That is simply the yin and yang of every part of life in general.


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## Tina (May 26, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> I think perhaps I'm in the wrong place. I despise hypersensitive people, and I'm seeing a lot of it here.


And some despise _in_sensitive people. Live and let live, eh. You come here to insult, and that is what you have been doing, then you're definitely in the wrong place, no doubt.


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## Bagalute (May 26, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> Some of the more heinous claims of abuse seem to be coming from outside the US. maybe its different elsewhere in the world. Perhaps there is less tolerance.



I doubt it. The idealization of a female (similar thing goes for male on different levels) size zero body image and most of the bullshit that goes along with it (you have to have a perfect tan, shave off all your body hair, wear make up in any case, get fake boobs if yours aren't like Pamela Anderson's, have teeth that are unnaturally "naturally white", have your nose corrected if it isn't the perfect angle etc...) comes pretty straight out of Hollywood and due to its cultural influence worldwide is probably the most dominant there is. Sad thing is that most countries are more than willing to pick it up and some might even try to overtake but I think the US are still nr.1 in the world when it comes to this... 

(well Brazil is famous for being obsessed with beauty contests and such but their ideal is still different than Hollywood's).


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## Sugar (May 26, 2008)

Bagalute said:


> I doubt it. The idealization of a female (similar thing goes for male on different levels) size zero body image and most of the bullshit that goes along with it (you have to have a perfect tan, shave off all your body hair, wear make up in any case, get fake boobs if yours aren't like Pamela Anderson's, have teeth that are unnaturally "naturally white", have your nose corrected if it isn't the perfect angle etc...) comes pretty straight out of Hollywood and due to its cultural influence worldwide is probably the most dominant there is. Sad thing is that most countries are more than willing to pick it up and some might even try to overtake but I think the US are still nr.1 in the world when it comes to this...
> 
> (well Brazil is famous for being obsessed with beauty contests and such but their ideal is still different than Hollywood's).



On a side note here...Brazil was so wonderful. I was welcomed with open arms. I can understand enough Portuguese to know when I'm being talked about and not one rude comment the entire time I was there. 

I know we could learn a thing or two about beauty. Yes, many women there get plastic surgery BUT the ones that don't are not looked down on. It's really great how they've taken a live and let live approach. I suppose having a democracy for only 24 years will do that to you.


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## revolutionman (May 26, 2008)

anyone who wants to continue this conversation with me to productive ends is free to email me but I won't be posting in this thread anymore. Cause I don't think i have anything to say that most of want to hear. Thats and a moderator came knocking and accused me of insulting people.


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## TraciJo67 (May 28, 2008)

ripley said:


> Dr. Phil? Is that you??!?



No, I'm pretty sure that Dr. Phil has a better command of the King's English. Not to mention, a spell-check


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## BothGunsBlazing (May 28, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> anyone who wants to continue this conversation with me to productive ends is free to email me but I won't be posting in this thread anymore. Cause I don't think i have anything to say that most of want to hear. Thats and a moderator came knocking and accused me of insulting people.



I don't know how you managed to post through the tears, mate. Seriously, take this to email? You some kind of fairy? 

"I don't really know what it's like to be a fat woman and have to deal with the same issues that I dealt with as a fat kid as a fat adult, but I'll go right ahead and bitch about people playing the victim either way"

Oh, did I say victim? I meant victem. There is a difference between a typo and just being illiterate. 

I'm all for listening to peoples informed opinions, but clearly you've got zero clue what you're on about, so, yeah, it's probably best if you take your hypersensitivity lust elsewhere.


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## CleverBomb (May 29, 2008)

Donnaalicious said:


> Hey dude....take your own advice and *man up*. Generally, most of the strong manly men I know don't whine that someone who posts an opposing opinion (only one P in opinion, by the way---how's that for patronizing?) to theirs is responding immaturely. Calling names is weak, you know, not very tough.
> 
> I do think you have stumbled across a new word, though. You might want to have pratronize added to the Urban Dictionary with the definition, "to make oneself appear to be a prat."


*Chuckles quietly*
*Mutters under breath 'cause the board thinks I've repped everyone today or something*

-Rusty


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## Lastminute.Tom (May 29, 2008)

it is not natural to repress emotions of any sort, particularly those of grief, anger, love or fear doing so can lead to an inability to deal with your own emotions and psychological break down, if you keep your emotions locked away you will suffer repercussions sometimes much later in life where what you have been taught differs from what you experience.

the mainstream of society is lead by profit and therefore rejects the idea that someone can be happy with their appearance if they do not adhere to the conventions laid down by the media, fashion and diet industries simply because they don't profit from people who are happy with the way they are

it is unfortunate that intolerance is such a big part of our society and that there is such a need to categorize peoples so that they can be judged as a group rather than as individuals, I cannot say I am innocent of that because I do judge, usually based around their adhearance to the mainstream society but that doesn't make my judgements defensible or infact any judgements, there is no need to lable eachother like we do and there is no need for all the stigma attached to those lables, to move forward we must take the responsibility for all of it in order to change part of it, it seems harsh, but we are part of the pattern as well, we make up part of society and must stop our judgements on others if we wish others to stop judging ourselves, I can discern from the posts here that many are already on that path to mastery and some of us like myself are just starting out but together through conscious effort we can change our attitudes and the attitudes of the world around us for the better, the ball has already started rolling, we just need to keep it that way.


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## mergirl (May 29, 2008)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Make that 'all big men and women'; some get it worse than others, but it happens to us all. In fact, make that 'all men and women' while you're at it; plenty of people have bullied (or tried to bully) me, and every day I see somebody trying to bully somebody else in some way: if it's not about body size, it's about race, or sex, or nationality, or age, or hair color, or clothes, or education, or... The fact is that humans are social primates, and that means we arrange ourselves into a pecking order and spend our lives trying to find out whom it's okay to bully, and who gets to bully us. The bullying may get a little subtler when we grow up, but it's still there and always will be: it's part of being human. The only person I know of who didn't get bullied regularly was Robinson Crusoe. And he bullied Friday.


well to say ALL big women/men get bullied would be to look at it from a western perspective only. There are many countries where Fat is seen as more desirable than thin so these people, while they may be bullied for somethings, wont be bulllied about thier weight..

mer


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## moore2me (May 29, 2008)

Bagalute said:


> I doubt it. The idealization of a female (similar thing goes for male on different levels) size zero body image and most of the bullshit that goes along with it (you have to have a perfect tan, shave off all your body hair, wear make up in any case, get fake boobs if yours aren't like Pamela Anderson's,
> 
> *. . . like Pamela Anderson's boob's aren't fake?*
> 
> ...



.........................


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