# why do fat women make society so uncomfortable?



## superodalisque (Jan 15, 2014)

when men are fat nobody seems to get all that upset about it even if they do think he should lose weight. he might even say he wants to stay fat and nobody cares much about it. it might be noted and joked about some and then people just seem to move on. but if a woman is fat, particularly willingly so, certain sectors of our society go completely bonkers. the frothing anger really is amazing. what do you think is the cause of that? what is so particularly upsetting in a woman choosing to be fat?


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## loopytheone (Jan 16, 2014)

I think it has something to do with the culture that says the most important thing a woman can be is attractive. Men can be smart, or funny or good leaders and be respected but even if a woman is all of these things she will still be judged on her appearance by society as a whole. And in current society the idea that thin = attractive is pushed very heavily so the idea of a woman that does not meet societies standards of attractiveness and doesn't care about this is outrageous to society as it goes against the standards it has set. So I think that society as a whole feels threatened by a comfortable large female because it challenges some of the structures of our current society and that scares people who rely on society for structure in their own lives. 

My opinion, at least.


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## Orsetti (Jan 16, 2014)

Good question. For me it is just not a matter of attractiveness. It goes far deeper.

If a man has a lot of different sex partners, he is cool, maybe a macho. If a woman does the same, she will be called a slut or worse. And then... whores are inferior and not loved, neither by man or woman. But why is this?

Because for some reason I never managed to find out, most people feel threatened by a woman, that simply takes herself all she wants. Man fear this kind of woman, because they see such a woman as ununsual. They see them as kind of equivalent, because often woman stand back in many parts of their lifes to make their men feel better and support them. Not this kind of woman, and so the men feel uncomfortable. These women do not mother them, but they challenge them. I guess, this is something, that happens in subconciousness, because if you ask men, most will answer, they like strong woman. But only the ones that are strong in supporting them... and this is the part, they don' t say... and often don' t even know.

Women hate these kind of woman, because they are allowing themselves all they want. For me the answer is pure envy, because these women are trapped in their perceptions of moral and therefore cannot allow themselves to do, what they really would want to do. Instead they are playing their roles.

And if a woman likes being fat, loves to eat and shows no willingness to stand back in some aspects of their life - to honour the common codex of moral and decency - then this woman has to be disciplined like a child, that is raging over something, that the child want, but does not get. A woman that gives in to her passions, appearantly has not been well bred, so that has to be catch up on.

The ones that for whatever reason think, that making sacrifices makes them better beings, see people dedicated to their wishes on straight road to hell.

So, for me it is not just a question of attractivness or fat or thin. It simply comes down to this: women, that are strong enough to allow themselves everything they want, are a threat - especially for the own believes. And the history of mankind cleary shows, that all wars and cruels on this planet always happens, because some people want to make their believes true for everybody. And because there is no simple real truth, the only thing left are beliefs. And truth and beliefs are often confused.

It is a kind of war, that is waged upon all kind of people, that are not living after the commonly accepted rules. And this is so even for people, that loves being fat. For me this is, why this fatbashing all around will never ever end. Because most people truly believe, that fat people can' t neither be happy nor love themselves.

Sorry, my english isn't too good, because I'm from Germany, but I hope zou could understand what i meant.

Markus


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## bigmac (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm going to disagree. I don't believe society accepts fat men any more than it accepts fat women. Indeed at the super-size end of the scale fat men may actually have it worse. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which gender has it worse -- that wouldn't be the least bit productive -- but neither is assuming fat guys have it easy.


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## azerty (Jan 16, 2014)

I must say that in a latin country such as France, it is more difficult to be a fat woman, than a fat man, since we still live in a mediterranian patriarchal culture


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 16, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I'm going to disagree. I don't believe society accepts fat men any more than it accepts fat women. Indeed at the super-size end of the scale fat men may actually have it worse. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which gender has it worse -- that wouldn't be the least bit productive -- but neither is assuming fat guys have it easy.



I have to respectfully disagree on this point.

Take work and income disparity. Overweight women are one of the lowest paid groups in our society. At the lowest income brackets in society you find the majority are women. "There is a strong correlation between lower incomes and high obesity rates for black and white women.... Whereas 26.5 percent of men with annual household incomes of less than $10,000 are obese compared with 24.6 percent of men with incomes of more than $75,000, the gap for women is dramatic35.6 percent of women in the lowest income group are obese compared with 15.5 percent in the highest income group. " (http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2010/usobesity.aspx) I realize this is from 2008...I just want to illustrate what I personally live.

I have seen personally time and time again that overweight men are far more socially accepted than women. Jobs, social settings, government jobs, public jobs and especially dating. Over the years many women I have known have been attracted to larger men and no one asks why. Other women normally don't judge them, berate them or think they are out of their minds.

Also, I grew up with TV shows and movies that project what is socially acceptable (what they want us to believe) - large men and thin women, having a family, being well paid...etc. This has been projected for years - but, women who were overweight have been traditionally shown to be nothing but side kicks, funny (because you know fat women always have a great personality! lol) or sad sacks with no love life. (I'm speaking about what I have seen over the course of my life..what was projected to me not referring to recent events). 

I'm not saying that individuals haven't experienced some horrible treatment due to being overweight..however, I do believe that is far easier for an overweight man to navigate our society than a woman. 

I don't believe that overweight women make society uncomfortable..I'm fat - I'm not an itchy wool sweater.  J/K However, honestly, some people don't mind fat people and then there are those lovely [sic] individuals who aren't so polite. You know the ones...that fat people should die ones. Then the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle. 

I believe that most humans, being human, have this innate need/desire to view themselves as better than another individual or group. History has taught us that humans have spent inordinate amount of time and made great efforts to oppress others. Sadly, we are experts at oppression. We even come up with grandiose explanations as to why we are exploiting another human being. As a species we seem to thrive on this shit. It is socially acceptable to make fun of and discriminate against fat people. I mean seriously, I'm fat..I don't have feelings (sarcasm). I don't want to claim oppression; I'm just stating that I think people feel a desire to make sure that they view others as less in order to feed their ego/make them feel better about themselves. 

Being that I have gained so much weight and this attribute is seen as a flaw in our society and well - I can't hide my appearance - I'm highly visible. I'm easy to spot and many feel the need to comment, harass and physically attack me based on my one physical attribute - my weight. We live in a society that still largely already thinks it is okay to legislate what I can and cannot do with my body - why wouldn't they feel it is okay to denigrate, discriminate and sometimes outright hate me based on my body?


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 16, 2014)

azerty said:


> I must say that in a latin country such as France, it is more difficult to be a fat woman, than a fat man, since we still live in a mediterranian patriarchal culture



I think there are many reasons why fat women are threatening, and the other posters have made several important points. I agree with Orsetti that there are control issues involved, and I'd like to expand on his post. I once dated a girl who was taller than I, and one of my male friends asked, "Aren't you afraid she'll dominate you?" In a patriarchal society women are expected to be delicate, i.e., physically weak, to be protected and directed by the stronger men. A fat woman is, literally, hard to push around. And the women who accept patriarchy and try to conform to its ideals will resent fat women for not playing by the rules. If you believe you need a man to be complete, and that you must remake yourself in a particular image to get a man, the woman who gets men's attention without conforming to that accepted image threatens your belief system and your self-worth.


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## azerty (Jan 16, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I think there are many reasons why fat women are threatening, and the other posters have made several important points. I agree with Orsetti that there are control issues involved, and I'd like to expand on his post. I once dated a girl who was taller than I, and one of my male friends asked, "Aren't you afraid she'll dominate you?" In a patriarchal society women are expected to be delicate, i.e., physically weak, to be protected and directed by the stronger men. A fat woman is, literally, hard to push around. And the women who accept patriarchy and try to conform to its ideals will resent fat women for not playing by the rules. If you believe you need a man to be complete, and that you must remake yourself in a particular image to get a man, the woman who gets men's attention without conforming to that accepted image threatens your belief system and your self-worth.



I agree with you 100%


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## tonynyc (Jan 16, 2014)

So many factors to consider (gender - culture - demographics) regarding size acceptance... 

Of course an interesting question is to consider which parts of "society" would not be comfortable.

One thing I enjoy about living in a larger city is that for the most part- people mind their own business and are to wrapped up in their own issues to bother with anyone else. You do get that annoying sort every now and then-but, the keep their comments to themselves.

*
Bottom line- at the end of the day -"Why should anyone (regardless of gender or size) care about what some stranger thinks. If it's something that some 'stranger' doesn't approve of- then it is the problem of that individual at the end of the day- not yours"
*


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## Azrael (Jan 16, 2014)

In the West I'd think it has to do with societies standards for different genders.

The standards for men value achieving, the standard for women seems to be more appearance based.

You could be an extremely attractive man but if you're jobless and live with your mom (or worse are on welfare) for many your value is zero if not negative (because you're not doing anything).


In the case of women you could do all sorts of great and amazing things (or do nothing) but you're value would still be limited for many. It doesn't matter if you do such great and wonderful things for if you aren't a looker many don't seem to really care.

The opposite is also be true.

The problem with both though is that people aren't seen as being inherently valuable.


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## bigmac (Jan 16, 2014)

tonynyc said:


> ...
> 
> One thing I enjoy about living in a larger city is that for the most part- people mind their own business and are to wrapped up in their own issues to bother with anyone else. You do get that annoying sort every now and then-but, the keep their comments to themselves.
> 
> ...



This is a good point. Over the years I've lived in or near pretty much every west coast city from San Francisco north and have got to say I seldom encountered people making a big deal about weight. All the horror stories I've heard have been from people who lived in rural areas, the heartland, or the south (you know all those areas with good family values).


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## tonynyc (Jan 16, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I'm going to disagree. I don't believe society accepts fat men any more than it accepts fat women. Indeed at the super-size end of the scale fat men may actually have it worse. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which gender has it worse -- that wouldn't be the least bit productive -- but neither is assuming fat guys have it easy.





PunkyGurly74 said:


> I have to respectfully disagree on this point.
> 
> Take work and income disparity.
> 
> ...



*BigMac and PunkyGurly : I think you both make great points. Hope you don't mind that I bulleted your key points PG. *

_
How does society view a BHM 

1. Ex- Athlete think (Football Player- Track and Field - Wrestler- powerlifters- Weightlifter)

2. Size is seen as powerful 

3. The only deal breaker that I have witnessed is someone's height and this unfortunately happens regardless of size

4. Gender and to a great degree Ethnic gap for pay is unfortunate- what does it take break the glass ceiling? This is an extremely complex issue.

5. TV Shows ( think of the Classic Honeymooners to the King of Queens)

6. People can be very competitive and unfortunately it becomes a "zero-sum" game for someone to succeed - someone loses out

_


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## tonynyc (Jan 16, 2014)

bigmac said:


> This is a good point. Over the years I've lived in or near pretty much every west coast city from San Francisco north and have got to say I seldom encountered people making a big deal about weight. All the horror stories I've heard have been from people who lived in rural areas, the heartland, or the south (you know all those areas with good family values).



*Yep - folks are too caught up in their own thing to really bother about anyone else*


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 16, 2014)

Tony,

No problem. You broke it down very succinctly...

In regards to your points.

1 and 2: 
I had edited from my first post that many of the women that I have known who date larger men or when describing the man they like it goes something like this.. "I like a guy who is a teddy bear....I like how he makes me feel protected" or even "I like something I can grab onto" soo..yes...size is seen as powerful and sexually desirable by many women. 

All of the conversations over the years that I have been around/near when it comes to men and the women they like it has been so RARE to ever hear them say they like larger women. So, ipso facto: I have always believed that large men are far more socially acceptable and sexually desirable than large women due to hundreds of these type of conversations. Just in my experiences.

3. True (that's okay..more shorties for me?  hehehe)

4. No idea how with all candidates being equal employers still offer lower pay to those of a different ethnicity or gender and it is no longer 1979.

5. Exactly! 



tonynyc said:


> *BigMac and PunkyGurly : I think you both make great points. Hope you don't mind that I bulleted your key points PG. *
> 
> _
> How does society view a BHM
> ...


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## Surlysomething (Jan 16, 2014)

I've been called _intimidating_ almost my entire adult life. Even the smallest thing gets turned into this be it from driving or the way I carry myself.

I'm a big, confident, smart, independent, strong woman with a half decent sense of style and I don't suffer fools. All qualities that would be COMMENDABLE in a man. I don't fit in the box that most people think I should be in. I should be quiet, embarrassed, virginal or the clown because i'm not what 'society' deems desirable. I learned a long time ago that following the pack was pretty freakin' boring. How can I be anyone other than myself?

People can be as intimidated as they want to be, I don't care anymore. 





Dr. Feelgood said:


> I think there are many reasons why fat women are threatening, and the other posters have made several important points. I agree with Orsetti that there are control issues involved, and I'd like to expand on his post. I once dated a girl who was taller than I, and one of my male friends asked, "Aren't you afraid she'll dominate you?" In a patriarchal society women are expected to be delicate, i.e., physically weak, to be protected and directed by the stronger men. A fat woman is, literally, hard to push around. And the women who accept patriarchy and try to conform to its ideals will resent fat women for not playing by the rules. If you believe you need a man to be complete, and that you must remake yourself in a particular image to get a man, the woman who gets men's attention without conforming to that accepted image threatens your belief system and your self-worth.


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## EMH1701 (Jan 16, 2014)

I have to wonder if part of it isn't sexism. Women in the old days were supposed to be invisible, seen but not heard, and certainly not take up space. We fat women take up space and are not invisible, though society may treat us as if we are such. However, the stick-thin women of eras past had a harder time being visible or getting their opinions heard. So maybe that is part of it.


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## tonynyc (Jan 16, 2014)

bigmac said:


> This is a good point. Over the years I've lived in or near pretty much every west coast city from San Francisco north and have got to say I seldom encountered people making a big deal about weight. All the horror stories I've heard have been from people who lived in rural areas, the heartland, or the south (you know all those areas with good family values).





PunkyGurly74 said:


> ...
> 1 &2: All of the conversations over the years that I have been around/near when it comes to men and the women they like it has been so RARE to ever hear them say they like larger women. So, ipso facto: I have always believed that large men are far more socially acceptable and sexually desirable than large women due to hundreds of these type of conversations. Just in my experiences. ...
> 
> 
> 4. No idea how with all candidates being equal employers still offer lower pay to those of a different ethnicity or gender and it is no longer 1979.




*BigMac and PunkGurly*

_

1. You both illustrate the possibilities of "regional" and "cultural" differences when it comes to the SA experience. 

2. With regards to pay inequity- some facts have not change at all- several factors can come to play here

A. Education and Networking Opportunities (depending if one had the opportunity to attend the best 50 colleges in the world or top regional colleges in your area)

B. Hard work/ sheer determination/ healthy dose of "Good Luck"

C. Family/Health other factors which can force individuals to forego the fast-track

_



EMH1701 said:


> I have to wonder if part of it isn't sexism. Women in the old days were supposed to be invisible, seen but not heard, and certainly not take up space. We fat women take up space and are not invisible, though society may treat us as if we are such. However, the stick-thin women of eras past had a harder time being visible or getting their opinions heard. So maybe that is part of it.



_

Sadly there are many ways to make folks feel invisible

_


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## shy guy (Jan 16, 2014)

EMH1701 said:


> I have to wonder if part of it isn't sexism. Women in the old days were supposed to be invisible, seen but not heard, and certainly not take up space. We fat women take up space and are not invisible, though society may treat us as if we are such. However, the stick-thin women of eras past had a harder time being visible or getting their opinions heard. So maybe that is part of it.



That frankly could be some of it, it's taken women a long time to get to the point where they are now so you can't disregard sexism as a whole, at the same time though I don't believe that's all of it.


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## penguin (Jan 16, 2014)

I think it's mostly due to sexism. Women are constantly told their place in society is to stand there, look pretty, and let the menfolk objectify you. If you don't conform to the accepted view, it makes people uncomfortable.


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## bigmac (Jan 16, 2014)

penguin said:


> I think it's mostly due to sexism. *Women are constantly told their place in society is to stand there, look pretty, and let the menfolk objectify you.* If you don't conform to the accepted view, it makes people uncomfortable.



??? None of the women I know don't play that role.


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 16, 2014)

I do believe there is something to said of regional and cultural differences. Does sexism play a role - maybe, but, I don't believe it is as prevalent as it once was. I experienced it over 20 years ago on an almost daily basis due to I played golf competitively on an all boys team and only had boys to compete against. It came from coaches and competitors both. It was rare to come across another girl who played. Now schools have girl golf teams!

I believe there has been a paradigm shift away from the "stand there and look pretty" school of thought. It was very prevalent in my mother's generation (she was born in 1935) and even with my sister's who were both born in the early 50's. However, I just don't feel it and see it as much. Maybe I have blinders?

However, anyone who has never fit in what is the culture norm at the moment has always been deemed and outsider or something to be feared, mocked, beaten down or ostracized. 








tonynyc said:


> *BigMac and PunkGurly*
> 
> _
> 
> ...





penguin said:


> I think it's mostly due to sexism. Women are constantly told their place in society is to stand there, look pretty, and let the menfolk objectify you. If you don't conform to the accepted view, it makes people uncomfortable.


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## azerty (Jan 17, 2014)

penguin said:


> I think it's mostly due to sexism. Women are constantly told their place in society is to stand there, look pretty, and let the menfolk objectify you. If you don't conform to the accepted view, it makes people uncomfortable.





PunkyGurly74 said:


> I do believe there is something to said of regional and cultural differences. Does sexism play a role - maybe, but, I don't believe it is as prevalent as it once was. I experienced it over 20 years ago on an almost daily basis due to I played golf competitively on an all boys team and only had boys to compete against. It came from coaches and competitors both. It was rare to come across another girl who played. Now schools have girl golf teams!
> 
> I believe there has been a paradigm shift away from the "stand there and look pretty" school of thought. It was very prevalent in my mother's generation (she was born in 1935) and even with my sister's who were both born in the early 50's. However, I just don't feel it and see it as much. Maybe I have blinders?
> 
> However, anyone who has never fit in what is the culture norm at the moment has always been deemed and outsider or something to be feared, mocked, beaten down or ostracized.



I think you are right


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## Tad (Jan 17, 2014)

tonynyc said:


> *BigMac and PunkGurly*
> 
> _
> 
> ...



A couple of recent analysis of the male-female pay gap have been kind of illuminating:

1- there is a difference at the very top end--far more male CEOs and very senior employees who sometimes make many multiples of the average worker's salary.

2- there is a difference at the lower end. Of jobs that don't demand much education, the one men are apt to go into (construction, unionized factory jobs, etc) tend to pay better than the ones women tend to go into (retail, child care, cleaning, etc)

3- in the middle there appears to be a very substantial 'mommy-gap' but much less of a gender-gap per se. That is, women who have not had kids are apparently making pretty similar average money to men with similar education and experience. However motherhood seems to make a large difference--be it taking time off that takes you off the promotion track, change of priorities that lead mother's not to compete as effectively, choosing to work part time or to take jobs that are more compatible with child care priorities.... whatever the various reasons, it seems there is now (at least in Canada) a much larger gap between mothers and women who are not mothers than between women who are not mothers and men. At least, according to the investigation on CBC last week


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 17, 2014)

PunkyGurly74 said:


> I believe there has been a paradigm shift away from the "stand there and look pretty" school of thought. It was very prevalent in my mother's generation (she was born in 1935) and even with my sister's who were both born in the early 50's. However, I just don't feel it and see it as much. Maybe I have blinders?



No, you just aren't part of the top 1%. In addition to regional and cultural differences, women's roles are also determined by class differences. In the boom years of the 50's and 60's, more families were able to live on a single income: daddy went off to work, and mommy shopped, cooked, cleaned house, and cared for the kids. Those days are gone forever, and increasingly more middle-class mommies have to hold down a job outside the house. I can see the effect in my students: middle-class coeds prepare themselves for a career; the few genuinely wealthy girls don't, because they know they'll never have to work. They are, however, taking the humanities classes that will allow them to talk intelligently as gracious hostesses for their CEO husbands.


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## bigmac (Jan 17, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> No, you just aren't part of the top 1%. In addition to regional and cultural differences, women's roles are also determined by class differences. In the boom years of the 50's and 60's, more families were able to live on a single income: daddy went off to work, and mommy shopped, cooked, cleaned house, and cared for the kids. Those days are gone forever, and increasingly more middle-class mommies have to hold down a job outside the house. I can see the effect in my students: * middle-class coeds prepare themselves for a career;* the few genuinely wealthy girls don't, because they know they'll never have to work. They are, however, taking the humanities classes that will allow them to talk intelligently as gracious hostesses for their CEO husbands.




Not only do middle-class coeds prepare themselves for careers but ultimately most pair up with a partner of roughly equal socio-economic standing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/19/magazine/19wwln_idealab.html

This assortive mating is hardening American class structure.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/05/assortative_mar.html


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 17, 2014)

Tad said:


> A couple of recent analysis of the male-female pay gap have been kind of illuminating:
> 
> 
> 2- there is a difference at the lower end. *Of jobs that don't demand much education, the one men are apt to go into (construction, unionized factory jobs, etc) tend to pay better than the ones women tend to go into (retail, child care, cleaning, etc)*
> ...



Tad,

Great points. The area in bold is incredibly true. Most women on the lower job scale opt for jobs like Customer Service or non-trade jobs that pay far less. There are a few women who cross over and work the trade jobs, but, not many. 

I have a BA, yet, since earning my degree and combined with over 10 years of management experience I cannot find a decent job and after a couple of interviews in the last year (one HR person after a 45 minute phone interview..then he sees me..I get no tour like promised..he shuffles me to a back room with no lights. It was a conference room used as storage and makes a comment that "we don't have elevators" and the interview lasted less than 10 minutes. To say the least after these experiences I was a bit defeated) It has been my experience that my weight is a hindrance in finding a decent paying job. (and when you explain this to people outside of a place like Dims their first response is "well, lose the weight" so, it reinforces my theory) Turn on the news and the "war against obesity", the cost and drain fat people have on "the system". Fat people make health rates skyrocket. So, even though they have my resume they instantly become far less interested in hiring me upon seeing me.

When I weighed far less it was easier to get better job offers. This is the highest weight I have ever been and anything I wish to do..training, public engagement, management - it seems all the doors are closed to me. Who will hire me? I can find jobs all day long that are non-management, non-public...(I so wish I knew IT) jobs that pay nothing and do not take into account my years of experience...however, others individuals with the same background and education (and in many cases less experience) are making far more than I and moving up. 

Sorry, this just has been a constant theme in my life over the last couple of years..


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## Tad (Jan 17, 2014)

My sympathies on the job hunt, Punky. Must be tremendously frustrating. I admit that the the fear of how job interviews would play out--especially as I get older--is one of the things that scares me away from letting my weight go where it would, and I expect that the discrimination just multiplies as you add in more factors, like gender.

It really sucks. Of course, anyone less blinkered can pick up some awesome people by looking at those who might normally get discriminated against, but those places seem to be rare


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## EMH1701 (Jan 17, 2014)

bigmac said:


> ??? None of the women I know don't play that role.



Just because the women you know don't play that role doesn't mean they aren't told that. It just means they are courageous.


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## penguin (Jan 17, 2014)

bigmac said:


> ??? None of the women I know don't play that role.



I didn't say the women were playing that role, I said that they were constantly inundated with messages telling them that. Take a close look at advertising, focus on how much women are objectified in the media. Sex doesn't sell, objectification does.


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## tonynyc (Jan 17, 2014)

PunkyGurly74 said:


> 1. Most women on the lower job scale opt for jobs like Customer Service or non-trade jobs that pay far less.
> 
> 2. There are a few women who cross over and work the trade jobs, but, not many.
> 
> ...



*PunkyGurly*

You bring up some interesting points - hopefully you won't mind that I highlighted them.....

1. Unfortunately - we all have to evaluate and assess our skills in a changing market (what matters are the skills that employers look at NOW). To illustrate - I've worked in IT over 10 years in different capacity (Now my focus is on programming and analytics) . 

In the late 90's certification in CISCO Routers and Networks was seen as a big ticket. Bookstores would have bookshelves on the topic .... NOW , you are lucky to see maybe (4 or 5) books in stock... 

2. Regarding the job experience (horrible)-but, look at it like this 
*This is one horrible place that I don't have to deal with- they did you a favor*... At the end of the day... you have to be happy with the job you find.

3. Reassess skills - join associations - Got to your bookstore (B&N) read Business Magazines like MIT SLOAN- ROTMAN - HBR to see what they trends are and what is changing

4. IT skills check what can be offered at your college or online




Tad said:


> My sympathies on the job hunt, Punky. Must be tremendously frustrating. I admit that the the fear of how job interviews would play out--especially as I get older--is one of the things that scares me away from letting my weight go where it would, and I expect that the discrimination just multiplies as you add in more factors, like gender.
> 
> Of course, anyone less blinkered can pick up some awesome people by looking at those who might normally get discriminated against, but those places seem to be rare



*Tad*

You bring an interesting point - I can only add the job hunt can be a "journey" of navigating (phone interviews - in person interviews - panel interviews) - there are so many factors that one has to put into perspectives

1. Are the jobs that are posted truly opened OR are employers just doing the "dog and pony" show to just collect resumes.

2. If you have a high application pool then at this point it's a buyers market for the employer and it's difficult to figure which they could go for. If your skills are roughly the same as another candidate (and that candidate could be willing to work for 20K less than it's no comparison)


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 18, 2014)

Tony,

I see what you are saying...I appreciate the advice.  

Trust me..what you have said has all been covered going on well over 5 years now. If I could go back to school - I would. Seems there are some barriers - i.e. my previous student loans. 

No reason to go into specifics here on all your points. I'm afraid that no matter how I word it - it may come across negatively and I really want to avoid that.

But, again, thank you 




tonynyc said:


> *PunkyGurly*
> 
> You bring up some interesting points - hopefully you won't mind that I highlighted them.....
> 
> ...


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## EtobicokeFA (Jan 18, 2014)

penguin said:


> I didn't say the women were playing that role, I said that they were constantly inundated with messages telling them that. Take a close look at advertising, focus on how much women are objectified in the media. Sex doesn't sell, objectification does.



I sorry to say that is seems better for BHM, for example in politics you see a lot of BHMs like Chris Christine who are in politics, but I can't recall any BBWs in politics.


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## bigmac (Jan 18, 2014)

PunkyGurly74 said:


> ...
> 
> I have seen personally time and time again that overweight men are far more socially accepted than women. Jobs, social settings, government jobs, public jobs *and especially dating*. ...





tonynyc said:


> *BigMac and PunkyGurly : I think you both make great points. Hope you don't mind that I bulleted your key points PG. *
> 
> _
> How does society view a BHM
> ...



I'll agree that certain types of overweight men are socially accepted. It's also true that the range of sizes that are generally acceptable for men is greater than it is for women. Big guys that seem strong and powerful are indeed generally accepted. However, only a fraction of big guys fall into this category. For most guys being fat diminishes their power (both actually and as perceived). Many women do indeed like _football player types_ and its true that this is not seen as odd. Guys who do not fit this mold -- who I've heard described as having "unfortunate" builds -- are not generally accepted dating material.

It doesn't take much to transition from being a big strong guy to being a guy with an "unfortunate" build -- gaining an extra 20 or 30 pounds can easily move a guy into the latter category. Once you cross over to the dark side you become pretty much invisible to women (at best). I've spent most of my life straddling this line. When I'm in one of my lighter periods (i.e. under 300 pounds) people are more friendly, more likely to smile and utter casual greetings, and in potential dating situations were much more open. When I've been a bit fatter (i.e. 320 +/-) it seemed I was damn near invisible.

Fat guys who don't fit the "powerful" mold are basically SOL in many social situations. There are many BBW clubs -- I'm not aware of any BHM clubs (at least not for straight guys). Also, its amazing how hostile BBW events can be for big guys (I've heard many a BBW slam fat guys).


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## superodalisque (Jan 18, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I'll agree that certain types of overweight men are socially accepted. It's also true that the range of sizes that are generally acceptable for men is greater than it is for women. Big guys that seem strong and powerful are indeed generally accepted. However, only a fraction of big guys fall into this category. For most guys being fat diminishes their power (both actually and as perceived). Many women do indeed like _football player types_ and its true that this is not seen as odd. Guys who do not fit this mold -- who I've heard described as having "unfortunate" builds -- are not generally accepted dating material.
> 
> It doesn't take much to transition from being a big strong guy to being a guy with an "unfortunate" build -- gaining an extra 20 or 30 pounds can easily move a guy into the latter category. Once you cross over to the dark side you become pretty much invisible to women (at best). I've spent most of my life straddling this line. When I'm in one of my lighter periods (i.e. under 300 pounds) people are more friendly, more likely to smile and utter casual greetings, and in potential dating situations were much more open. When I've been a bit fatter (i.e. 320 +/-) it seemed I was damn near invisible.
> 
> *Fat guys who don't fit the "powerful" mold are basically SOL in many social situations. There are many BBW clubs -- I'm not aware of any BHM clubs (at least not for straight guys). Also, its amazing how hostile BBW events can be for big guys (I've heard many a BBW slam fat guys).*




i have to agree with this myself. a lot of BHMs beyond a certain size particularly are treated very badly. i've seen them purposefully ignored at dances with BBWs physically turning their backs to them and totally leaving them alone at tables or not talking to them. even the SA community tolerates a LOT of negativity toward BHMs that they would not tolerate toward BBWs including negative body descriptions etc... there are a lot of BHMs who are made to feel that they have absolutely nowhere to go for emotional support. that is something we really need to do much better with. and this lack of support protection and respect pretty much discrediting the SA community as a whole.


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## superodalisque (Jan 18, 2014)

a ton of awesome posts here and lots to think about. i don't know if this makes sense but...

the other night i went to a meeting with a friend of mine who is recovering from an abusive relationship. it was her one year anniversary being free and on her own. i was very happy and proud to be there with her to celebrate it. there as a discussion going on and a tiny young lady said that she was made to feel afraid of being fat because no one would like her. we've all heard it. and then it struck me that a whole lot of abused people often hold that belief, yet here we are, fat with lots of friends and SOs etc... so what must it do to people to see that? it would mean their whole perception of the world is wrong and they'd finally have to perceive the abuse they've been treated with if anybody says they have to be anything physical in order to be worthy to be loved and respected. suddenly the human world is more than just us powerless in our most basic instincts and people are not just mindless animals. it would mean that a person would have to be something other than skinny etc... to be loved. a lot of people probably find it a whole lot easier to deny themselves food than to accept themselves as being worthy. and i don't think that many people feel that the thing that should really be loveable about them, meaning their soul, or whatever you call it, is really loveable.

the people with low self esteem aren't really the ones who are not comfortable being fat in this storm of social negativity they live in. it's the people who think that not being fat somehow is a distraction from the fact that the world requires more of you than a body to be worthy of love and that they don't feel they meet the right criteria or that. someone earlier in the thread was talking about fat people looking as though they don't deny themselves. i do feel, that especially in this country that reveres puritan ethics and other theology, philosophy etc... that pounds into us how sinful and unworthy we are even as babies just coming into the world, and how much we need to basically punish and apologize for ourselves that the lack of self denial is real effrontery. how dare we think we are worthy enough to appear to eat whatever we like. how dare we appear to think we are better than them and deserve to have what we want.

it makes me think that the world just has it backward somehow. like i read someone say somewhere that" i don't have a soul but my soul has a body."


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## prplecat (Jan 18, 2014)

I think that in many parts of the world, women are not seen as having the right of ownership to their own bodies...and we're JUST starting to get away from that viewpoint here. The very people who are screaming the loudest in favor of smaller government are also the people who are passing laws right and left regulating women's bodies and their own rights to them. It starts with the attitudes toward rape, abortion and birth control. It does NOT stop there.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 18, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> suddenly the human world is more than just us powerless in our most basic instincts and people are not just mindless animals.



This is probably the scariest idea any human ever has to face. If it were true, it would make us responsible to and for ourselves.


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## Marlayna (Jan 18, 2014)

PunkyGurly74 said:


> Tad,
> 
> Great points. The area in bold is incredibly true. Most women on the lower job scale opt for jobs like Customer Service or non-trade jobs that pay far less. There are a few women who cross over and work the trade jobs, but, not many.
> 
> ...


This is so unfair. Think about starting your own business, then you don't have to deal with people's prejudices.


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## edvis (Jan 18, 2014)

Oh bigger men get it more than you realise. I've lost a little weight and actualy had some say "you might be able to get married off now" like there is something wrong with being overweight.



superodalisque said:


> when men are fat nobody seems to get all that upset about it even if they do think he should lose weight. he might even say he wants to stay fat and nobody cares much about it. it might be noted and joked about some and then people just seem to move on. but if a woman is fat, particularly willingly so, certain sectors of our society go completely bonkers. the frothing anger really is amazing. what do you think is the cause of that? what is so particularly upsetting in a woman choosing to be fat?


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## edvis (Jan 18, 2014)

Um, have you not noticed Michelle Obama is very much anti-fat? It's not just one political vewpoint. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/michelle-obama-anti-obesity-campaign


prplecat said:


> I think that in many parts of the world, women are not seen as having the right of ownership to their own bodies...and we're JUST starting to get away from that viewpoint here. The very people who are screaming the loudest in favor of smaller government are also the people who are passing laws right and left regulating women's bodies and their own rights to them. It starts with the attitudes toward rape, abortion and birth control. It does NOT stop there.


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## superodalisque (Jan 18, 2014)

edvis said:


> Oh bigger men get it more than you realise. I've lost a little weight and actualy had some say "you might be able to get married off now" like there is something wrong with being overweight.



oh i think BHMs have it bad alright. maybe in a different way though. do you think the actual anger is at the same level though ? i mean there are whole angry sites where somehow fat is supposed to be depriving men of certain characteristics they're supposed to have in absolutely every last woman no matter the preferences of others or the woman's personal preferences regarding her own body. those sites are extremely hostile and the comments are very angry and vindictive. someone even had a fat shaming week aimed only at women. do BHMs get as much actual anger? ii think the big issues with BHMs is that they are often ignored altogether. but you would know better than i would. what do you think?


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## edvis (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm an independent and really have no need to get into any poitical views on this site, but I do find this interesting. http://www.thewire.com/politics/2013/11/chris-christie-times-favorite-fat-joke/71352/


EtobicokeFA said:


> I sorry to say that is seems better for BHM, for example in politics you see a lot of BHMs like Chris Christine who are in politics, but I can't recall any BBWs in politics.


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 18, 2014)

Marlayna said:


> This is so unfair. Think about starting your own business, then you don't have to deal with people's prejudices.



Marlayna - it is a great idea  I have always liked the idea..just not sure what I would do..

Really..I was just posting about my experiences in life...maybe others have had them..maybe they haven't. I don't really believe I'm alone. I'll persevere - no worries.


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## edvis (Jan 18, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/peta-now-fat-shaming-women-vegan-diets-060400372.html


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## Never2fat4me (Jan 19, 2014)

penguin said:


> I think it's mostly due to sexism. Women are constantly told their place in society is to stand there, look pretty, and let the menfolk objectify you. If you don't conform to the accepted view, it makes people uncomfortable.



Couldn't rep this - anyone understand why we need to spread rep around before rep'ing someone again?? - but you hit the nail on the head.



PunkyGurly74 said:


> ITake work and income disparity. Overweight women are one of the lowest paid groups in our society. At the lowest income brackets in society you find the majority are women. "There is a strong correlation between lower incomes and high obesity rates for black and white women.... Whereas 26.5 percent of men with annual household incomes of less than $10,000 are obese compared with 24.6 percent of men with incomes of more than $75,000, the gap for women is dramatic35.6 percent of women in the lowest income group are obese compared with 15.5 percent in the highest income group. " (http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2010/usobesity.aspx) I realize this is from 2008...I just want to illustrate what I personally live.



While I agree with the overall point that fat women are discriminated against, I don't see this sort of data as particularly useful in proving anything. In particular, it is not clear about the relationship between cause and effect. First off, we are talking about a generalization. Stats provide overviews and cannot be expected to accurately reflect every individual case (so of course there are lots of examples that show the data as being wrong - e.g., lots of SSBBWs and SSBHMs on this site have stellar careers as well as many whose career never has taken off due to size-ism). Question comes down to are people in the lowest income group because they are fat or are they fat because they are in the lowest income group. If we rely just on stats, there are a lot of surveys showing that those with a low education level or IQ are more likely to be overweight. So from a purely statistical perspective, if that you take that as a given, then it is not surprising to also find that someone who is overweight is also going to be over-represented in the lowest income group. While this does not prove there is no discrimination, it presents a narrative that limits the usefulness of data on income levels in demonstrating that there is prejudice against fat people. To really show the impact discrimination, we need to emphasize data showing the link between the cause (discrimination against fat people) and effect (low income/poor employment prospects) rather than just showing a link between two "circumstances" (being overweight and having a low income).

Ultimately, I think Mark Twain got it right when he talked about lies, damned lies, and statistics.

- Chris


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## Marlayna (Jan 19, 2014)

PunkyGurly74 said:


> Marlayna - it is a great idea  I have always liked the idea..just not sure what I would do..
> 
> Really..I was just posting about my experiences in life...maybe others have had them..maybe they haven't. I don't really believe I'm alone. I'll persevere - no worries.


Your post hit home with me. The only time I knew I had a good chance of getting the job, was when a fat woman interviewed me. 
I decided to work for myself, and not have to deal with anyone's bs, or be at their mercy. Don't be afraid to try something new. Good luck.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 19, 2014)

Never2fat4me said:


> Ultimately, I think Mark Twain got it right when he talked about lies, damned lies, and statistics.
> 
> - Chris



Actually, it was Benjamin Disraeli, but that doesn't make him (or you) any less right. As you point out, statistics are statements about trends within a certain population; they cannot be used to make accurate predictions about individual cases. And a correlation doesn't prove cause and effect, although this kind of faulty reasoning has been used, at one time or another, to blame obesity for practically every illness known to man. As far as that goes, the world-wide increase in the temperature of sea water since the nineteenth century correlates with the decline of piracy, but no one (I hope) insists that we can stop global warming by becoming pirates (although if PunkyGirly74 is thinking of going into business for herself, she might want to) consider it).


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 19, 2014)

Well, first off, the data was only illustrating income disparity between fat men and fat women - i.e. based on gender alone. This was not in regards to individual cases - outliers. The numbers were also not cited to show why or how people got fat. And nor was I inferring that these numbers prove that there is size discrimination. It is the percentage of fat women vs men in low incomes and incomes over 75k. I referenced these numbers to illustrate a pay gap not sizeism.

Also, these numbers that you are stating are not useful further reinforce the long-held and generally accepted truth in America - that women still make less than men. The pay gap hasn't moved in 10 years. For full time jobs women make 77% of what men were earning.

Of course there always outliers, there are SSBBW & SSBHM who are doing wonderful and if you re-read what I quoted you would see that far less women are at that higher income bracket compared to men.

Oh..and ultimately, it was not Twain who you can attribute for the quote. Twain cited in his writings that the quote came from British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli; however, the original quote could not be found in Disraeil's writings.



Never2fat4me said:


> While I agree with the overall point that fat women are discriminated against, I don't see this sort of data as particularly useful in proving anything. In particular, it is not clear about the relationship between cause and effect. First off, we are talking about a generalization. Stats provide overviews and cannot be expected to accurately reflect every individual case (so of course there are lots of examples that show the data as being wrong - e.g., lots of SSBBWs and SSBHMs on this site have stellar careers as well as many whose career never has taken off due to size-ism). Question comes down to are people in the lowest income group because they are fat or are they fat because they are in the lowest income group. If we rely just on stats, there are a lot of surveys showing that those with a low education level or IQ are more likely to be overweight. So from a purely statistical perspective, if that you take that as a given, then it is not surprising to also find that someone who is overweight is also going to be over-represented in the lowest income group. While this does not prove there is no discrimination, it presents a narrative that limits the usefulness of data on income levels in demonstrating that there is prejudice against fat people. To really show the impact discrimination, we need to emphasize data showing the link between the cause (discrimination against fat people) and effect (low income/poor employment prospects) rather than just showing a link between two "circumstances" (being overweight and having a low income).
> 
> Ultimately, I think Mark Twain got it right when he talked about lies, damned lies, and statistics.
> 
> - Chris


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## tonynyc (Jan 19, 2014)

Never2fat4me said:


> 1. overall point that fat women are discriminated against
> 2. I don't see this sort of data as particularly useful in proving anything.
> 3. it is not clear about the relationship between cause and effect.
> 4. Stats provide overviews and cannot be expected to accurately reflect every individual case
> ...



*Chris*

You bring up some valid points - hope you don't mind me bulleting them for an easier read for me and response.

Points 1-4 yes Statistical studies can only provide a "sample" of what is going on with what you would like to investigate. 

I don't think that the findings of larger size folks disprove any of the previous research-but, provides additional need for investigation. 

*What is it about larger folks that have succeeded and what can we attribute this to?

* Class status
* Type of education - going to the top colleges with access to the right networks
* Having a good mentor
*Pure luck 
* Having that "Blink" moment - thinking of Malcolm Gladwell's book were folks just really worked on perfecting their craft - having the luck of being born at the Right Time and living in the Right Area.
*

5,6,7. Previous studies does provide a guide of sort with respect to validity and reliability



Dr. Feelgood said:


> Actually, it was Benjamin Disraeli, but that doesn't make him (or you) any less right. As you point out, statistics are statements about trends within a certain population; they cannot be used to make accurate predictions about individual cases. And a correlation doesn't prove cause and effect, although this kind of faulty reasoning has been used, at one time or another, to blame obesity for practically every illness known to man. As far as that goes, the world-wide increase in the temperature of sea water since the nineteenth century correlates with the decline of piracy, but no one (I hope) insists that we can stop global warming by becoming pirates (although if PunkyGirly74 is thinking of going into business for herself, she might want to) consider it).



_*True all it can predict are trends - there are always exceptions 
*_


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## Never2fat4me (Jan 19, 2014)

Since two people brought it up, Mark Twain attributed the quote about lies, damned lies and statistics to Benjamin Disraeli, but there is no evidence Disraeli actually said that, which is why it gets attributed to Mark Twain. Leonard Courtney is another potential source.

- Chris


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 19, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Actually, it was Benjamin Disraeli, but that doesn't make him (or you) any less right. As you point out, statistics are statements about trends within a certain population; they cannot be used to make accurate predictions about individual cases. And a correlation doesn't prove cause and effect, although this kind of faulty reasoning has been used, at one time or another, to blame obesity for practically every illness known to man. As far as that goes, the world-wide increase in the temperature of sea water since the nineteenth century correlates with the decline of piracy, but no one (I hope) insists that we can stop global warming by *becoming pirates (although if PunkyGirly74 is thinking of going into business for herself, she might want to) consider it)*.



I have always wanted to be an old school pirate and I'm not kidding..it was right up there with super secret spy... (I was this close to applying to the CIA as an analyst after graduation but..life had other plans)..one of my professors nixed the spy thing - he stated "I didn't blend in to well" and no..it wasn't my weight - said my personality was too big. Hmmm..... :: giggling::

And I didn't know you posted about the quote...I must have been typing my response. 

Punky the Pirate - it has a ring....


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