# ambivalence as an |un|closeted fa



## altered states (Feb 16, 2009)

In weeding through the Closet FAs thread, I wondered about the experience of the uncloseted in day-to-day life.

I'm somewhat out as an FA. "Somewhat" in that many people who know me well know the deal, and my policy is generally not to deny if the subject comes up. But I'm not the t-shirt-wearing/flag-waving type, in this and most circumstances). And if I'm in mixed social situations where the subject comes up, more often than not I keep my mouth shut about it. I've been outed in such situations, and the response is almost always positive (or at worst indifferent), but sometimes I'm not in the mood for the game of 20 Questions that can result, and the subsequent attention, nor to be defined by being an FA. Is this fair of me?

Confronting fat bashing head-on is one thing. I think opinion about this is pretty settled around here. But what if I'm with a group of guys and they're freaking out over some skinny whatever. Is it my duty to speak up, even if from then on I will be defined by that (and may be the topic of conversation for the rest of the night and forever)? Or if I'm in mixed company and the talk turns to dumb diet advice? 

I have to mention that my long term partner isn't fat. Not thin, but not fat. The logical question is, well, why aren't I with a fat woman? Yet the reverse isn't true. I know a couple very well where the woman is fat and the man isn't an FA (trust me on this), and yet people don't question him about why he's with a fat woman if thin women are his "thing."

Ultimately, I feel my sexuality is private. Perhaps I'm kidding myself. Activist gays would argue that sexuality IS political, whether we like it or not. Every time I keep my mouth shut, I'm tacitly enabling intolerance, or at the very least, neglecting a chance to educate and enlighten. But does the trait of being an FA - one I don't mind, but didn't ask for - automatically come with such responsibility?

Being an FA can define you, and I find being defined sexually can be off-putting and weird. I'm not a prude, but I'm modest, and I have friends and colleagues who know I'm an FA who will occasionally tweak me, and sometimes I'll then regret they're aware of my preference. Mind you, this is mostly harmless stuff that is never really offensive or nasty. I do wonder if I'd get the same comments and such if I was gay, in the same context.

For instance, a colleague* (female) sent me a pic of a fat woman lying naked on a bed with an obviously morphed booty (one I didn't recognize, miraculously). She'd put in the email "Thought you'd appreciate this." In another recent situation, I was with a client (again female) and discussing a certain celebrity. "She's hot," the client said, and then quickly added, "Oh, no - you like fat women - I forgot." 

Both situations were no big deal, and I didn't take offense at all. I believe it's just something amusing to these people, an odd/interesting trait I possess rather than a stigma. In a way, I'm proud of being different. In another way, I'd just as soon not be made fun of, for any reason. Much as I hate to admit it, it sometimes makes me want to close the closet door a few inches more.

* Not a coworker, just someone I work with frequently on a freelance basis. So sexual harassment issues don't apply, in case you're wondering.


----------



## Tad (Feb 16, 2009)

Dang, can't rep you for this just yet.

My details differ, but this totally catches the essence of my feelings/experiences.

I would put particular emphasis on: I'm married, so what does it matter to anyone else what my sexuality is? I'm going to be pretty guarded about what I say about anyone other than my spouse, and whether or not I find some particular person attractive really doesn't really matter, because it has almost no impact on what I actually do or say. And no matter what I felt, of course I'd say I'm attracted to my spouse, it would be beyond poor form to do anything else.


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 16, 2009)

Tres, I'm trying to get over there in your world and formulate a helpful reply. Not coming up with much, sorry. Having been married to two consecutive SSBBW and having dated almost exclusively SS/BBW I've rarely had to either declare or defend my preference. I'm atypical in quite a few ways so I guess I just never saw the point in being self-conscious about it? Besides, the women I've been with were not just fat. They were also bright, charming, accomplished and many other very attractive things. Maybe I'm naive but I like to think because I noticed and related to them comprehensively my friends and family did too.

I should probably also note that I'm not especially social and don't need or expect approval/acceptance. That probably makes being an out FA relatively easier for me as well? The only times I have ever struggled with acknowledging my preference is when smaller women hit on me. When I was married it was easy to duck out with the ring gesture and a smile. Being newly single and gainfully employed in an age group where any guy with most of his limbs and no ankle monitor rates a 7 I'm always freaked when some conventionally attractive chick starts flirting me up. It feels disingenuous but I see no point in saying, gee you're swell but just a couple hundred pounds south of what floats my boat. Women (mostly) don't tell me I'm too hairy, fat, whatever so why do I feel like I'm being unfaithful somehow? 

I know my guilt strings are all wound way too tight to begin with but when I tell a skinny chick I'm unavailable or some such crap I feel like a shit. I'm resigned about ever being in another relationship again for a host of reasons but the truth is I want one. In fact I want _The ONE_ and it feels like lying to women about that is really bad karma. What if the woman I'm saying that to has a gorgeous, fat sister or friend?

So I think that's the point I wanted to make for you Tres. Finding the right person is never easy for anyone. For those of us with _exceptional _taste it's even more important to let the world know so it can send us what we really want. Anybody that disses you for being honest wasn't going to be much help anyway. I think sometimes we just have to trust that the universe respects and rewards authenticity? Let your wants be _widely_ known and accept the consequences. JMO :bow:


----------



## altered states (Feb 16, 2009)

I haven't had a history of being stigmatized either. Sorry if that's how I came across. I dated (2) fat girls in high school and took a tiny amount of ribbing from friends, especially when the pattern was revealed, but never felt any stigma. My mother is fairly fat-phobic, but that also seemed to disappear when I brought these girls home (for the same reason you cite - I had good taste!). I think my issue in re-parsing my own ramble up there is that I just don't like being defined, in any way. And I'm slightly (not critically) miffed by the fact that it's considered this cute eccentricity. But then again, without becoming the t-shirt wearing/sign carrying person I'm not, how can I expect people to really "get it"?

As a side note, I get hit on way more often by thin women than fat women (not that it happens that often!). Maybe because with fat women I become a drooling, staring mess, while I'm able to somewhat keep my cool with the thin ones.



Ernest Nagel said:


> I'm atypical in quite a few ways so I guess I just never saw the point in being self-conscious about it? Besides, the women I've been with were not just fat. They were also bright, charming, accomplished and many other very attractive things. Maybe I'm naive but I like to think because I noticed and related to them comprehensively my friends and family did too.
> 
> I should probably also note that I'm not especially social and don't need or expect approval/acceptance. That probably makes being an out FA relatively easier for me as well? The only times I have ever struggled with acknowledging my preference is when smaller women hit on me. When I was married it was easy to duck out with the ring gesture and a smile. Being newly single and gainfully employed in an age group where any guy with most of his limbs and no ankle monitor rates a 7 I'm always freaked when some conventionally attractive chick starts flirting me up. It feels disingenuous but I see no point in saying, gee you're swell but just a couple hundred pounds south of what floats my boat. Women (mostly) don't tell me I'm too hairy, fat, whatever so why do I feel like I'm being unfaithful somehow?
> 
> ...


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 16, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> As a side note, I get hit on way more often by thin women than fat women (not that it happens that often!). Maybe because with fat women I become a drooling, staring mess, while I'm able to somewhat keep my cool with the thin ones.



Boy, I hear you there, dude. One of many reasons I've always been grateful for my preference. When I'm in the presence of a SS/BBW I'm really attracted to I'm like instant idiot-on-a-stick. Fumblemouth, brain vapor-locks, deer caught in headlights look. I've gotten a bit better over the years but I'm sure many BBW girls in HS thought I was a major 'tard. :blush: I've had many small, conventionally attractive women compliment me on how respectful and professional I am. They complain about guys always hitting on them and leering at them because of their looks and not seeing their intelligence. I've never said it but just once with one of the really vain ones I'd like to say "what looks?".


----------



## altered states (Feb 16, 2009)

I have a friend who's been involved with a model for a long time - gorgeous, 5'11" and 110 at most. We get along really, really well (better than she and her boyfriend, most of the time) and I swear it's because she has zero sexual power over me. I suspect I'm probably the only straight man in her life who treats her like a normal person.



Ernest Nagel said:


> Boy, I hear you there, dude. One of many reasons I've always been grateful for my preference. When I'm in the presence of a SS/BBW I'm really attracted to I'm like instant idiot-on-a-stick. Fumblemouth, brain vapor-locks, deer caught in headlights look. I've gotten a bit better over the years but I'm sure many BBW girls in HS thought I was a major 'tard. :blush: I've had many small, conventionally attractive women compliment me on how respectful and professional I am. They complain about guys always hitting on them and leering at them because of their looks and not seeing their intelligence. I've never said it but just once with one of the really vain ones I'd like to say "what looks?".


----------



## Tad (Feb 16, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I have a friend who's been involved with a model for a long time - gorgeous, 5'11" and 110 at most. We get along really, really well (better than she and her boyfriend, most of the time) and I swear it's because she has zero sexual power over me. I suspect I'm probably the only straight man in her life who treats her like a normal person.



I think this actually explains part of why a fair number of FA end up involved with thin women. A guy who is making a fool of himself trying to win a womans approval probably isnt nearly at appealing to most women as a guy who can talk and joke with them and doesnt seem to need anything from them. So I think FA can stand in danger of seeming very intriguing to thinner women, because they arent so attracted to them.


----------



## Haunted (Feb 16, 2009)

I don't necessarily advertise my fa-ness, But if the subject comes up i will go on and on about it. i sometimes end up talking a bit too much partly because i don't usually have the answers for the questions being asked so i kind of think out loud and formulate the answer through the discussion. 

i can't honestly say i'v ever been really picked on. through High school i didn't even now this was a preference i had dated a couple thin girls and a couple chubby girls. but looking back i definitely liked the bigger ones much more. i didn't actually nail down the whole preference thing till my late 20's early 30's so i may be behind the curve. but i can say finally recognizing that i prefer fat girls to thin has been incredibly freeing.


----------



## Adrian (Feb 16, 2009)

As others have stated, I can't be much help either. I have always been an 'OPEN' FA. From the time I first dated as a teenager, I dated only BBWs. It was something very deep within me that either those around me accept this aspect of my life or get out of my life and.... that included relatives.
The woman I love has always been more important to me than my male friends and, I don't let anyone get any other impression of my values.

Adrian


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 17, 2009)

Question: Fat women make you a staring, drooling mess, BUT... You don't want it known that you like fat women and your significant other is not fat...

Do you also taunt fat ladies as they walk down the street, yelling at them to join the gym?

I don't know about anyone else, but as a fat woman, I have zero use for a "fat admirer" who really doesn't seem to admire fat women so much as fetishize them. If you "admired" fat women and thought highly of them, Tres, you wouldn't have a problem occasionally coming off as proud of that to your buds. You don't have to be an activist, but hiding is plain cowardly.


----------



## Santaclear (Feb 17, 2009)

The way I see it, fat women receive enough shit in this world without us, the men who love them ALSO not supporting them. So we do a disservice by remaining silent when people dis, and certainly a much greater disservice by being "in the closet." What fucking closet? 

There is NOTHING wrong with loving fat women. I don't mean wear t-shirts or yell it to the world, but being in the closet is tacitly agreeing with and promoting the idea that there is something wrong with it.


----------



## Adrian (Feb 17, 2009)

Santaclear, well stated. I do have a T-shirt of which my wife purchased from an African goods or art store! It is a yellow T-shirt with a black silhouette of a BBW.
I get stares and double takes and.... I wear it with pride.

Adrian


----------



## mediaboy (Feb 17, 2009)

maybe at the end of the day you fall in love with a person and not a huge belly or a wide ass.

maybe whats on the inside is really what counts.

maybe I'm just not "hardcore" enough of an FA though

Maybe my thing isn't fat chicks at all, maybe its girls that like start trek and are well spoken and have wonderful senses of humor and fat girls have that a little more frequently than the vapid "omg becky these shoes are $300 dollars! lets get 'em!" that I put up with from most skinny girls

but as a human being, I don't give a fuck weather you are a fat girl or a pro-ana model. if you are my friend or obviously the victim of a total asshole then you can rest assured that with tooth and claw I will beat the every-loving-fuck out of any one that would attempt to corrupt and destroy my sisters.


----------



## kayrae (Feb 17, 2009)

I think I just fell in love with you. Just a little.


----------



## emjaybbw (Feb 17, 2009)

Adrian said:


> Santaclear, well stated. I do have a T-shirt of which my wife purchased from an African goods or art store! It is a yellow T-shirt with a black silhouette of a BBW.
> I get stares and double takes and.... I wear it with pride.
> 
> Adrian




And that's the way it should be..

A few years ago, i went to the Bahamas with my family. They are all skinny ..even watched the amount the fruit they were eating .

Ok so they walked passed a couple of fishermen..and they said nothing. But i was behind, because i had bought something. I walked passed..and 2 cute big guys called for me and said "just my size" and smiled big time. .. That whole vacation the men were approaching me..i felt like a queen..But even felt embarassed to get that much attention. My cousins were jealous as hell.

As a BBW..i really really do not understand why men are so afraid to show that next to loving a plus sized woman's body..they love more than just that.

We are more than just a sexual preference you know..

I am just proud and happy that all of my bumps, holes and rolls ;-) are a delight to the one i love. Makes me feel all woman inside and out.

But you know..i do understand that reality has it that a lot of guys do not own up to their likings due to social stigma. Having to hear about the constant commenting from males and females gets to be annoying at one point.

In my experience..most men who give comments..are like 'dead curious' really. They are the ones sneaking on the internet trying to get a date behind their girlfriends back. And believe me...A LOT are curious as hell..

As for the women that make comments..are really plain jealous. Inside they have a little feeling that says 'hmm why isnt he interested in me". They cant grasp that, because they have spent their whole lives..thinking that beauty is being bone skinny.:bow:

All the other folks that claim to be truly disgusted...leave them be. Not worth our time. I get remarks as well when they realize i am dating athletic type guys..and really cute ones too. They are sometimes so surprised that a 'guy like that' would fall for me...duhhh..please.

However..i read about someone saying that BBW's etc dont give much attention to you guys when you are in your 'i am in awe mode'. Its not because you stop and stare..its because most of us are ofcourse shy inside and fear rejection. So many will wait for you to approach them.

Unfortunately for most that's what society today has brought us. But with every day that passes i am getting out of my shell as well.


----------



## Tania (Feb 17, 2009)

mediaboy said:


> maybe at the end of the day you fall in love with a person and not a huge belly or a wide ass.
> 
> maybe whats on the inside is really what counts.
> 
> ...



Repped.


----------



## mergirl (Feb 17, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> As a side note, I get hit on way more often by thin women than fat women (not that it happens that often!). Maybe because with fat women I become a drooling, staring mess, while I'm able to somewhat keep my cool with the thin ones.



I Totally get that, i used to be like this when i was younger..i acted like such a drooling idiot around bbws i never got any! lol. 
Thankfullly i met my gf online so we emailed a wee bit and then chatted on the phone lOTS so that when she finally did meet me and i acted like a cretin she kinna knew there were other sides to me..Though, she did think i was a bit mental when we met..glad she gave me a chance really..:blush:


----------



## mergirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Being an uncloseted Fa is a bit different from being out of the closet when you are gay. So its difficult to compare the two. 
For one, i dont surround myself with homophobic yokles so very rarely have to stick up for the rights of gay people, which is of course sticking up for my rights.
As an 'out' Fa, it is not often i stick up for the rights of the Fa because many people dont even know its a thing. I didnt even know it was a 'thing' when i was with fat people for years! Often it is those we are attracted to that we have to stick up for.
I think its about awareness and trying to educate people even in small ways. You dont have to be a "badge wearer" but if you sit back and say nothing while a group of 'friends' are ripping into someone because of their size then you are not only 'a closeted Fa' but you are beyond reprehension. I am in no way ambivilent about being an Fa. I am passionate about it. If anyone dared say anything about anyones size i would mentally distroy them! You would think any good human would.
And this crap about 'oh i dont want to cause a scene/lose my friends' ..What if your friends were saying that they didnt like Black people? Would you really WANT to be friends with people like that? why is it that fat bashing is ok to some of you who are supposed to be Fa's? I dont get it.. but fortunatly this view seems to be in the minority here.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 17, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> In weeding through the Closet FAs thread, I wondered about the experience of the uncloseted in day-to-day life.
> 
> I'm somewhat out as an FA. "Somewhat" in that many people who know me well know the deal, and my policy is generally not to deny if the subject comes up. But I'm not the t-shirt-wearing/flag-waving type, in this and most circumstances). And if I'm in mixed social situations where the subject comes up, more often than not I keep my mouth shut about it. I've been outed in such situations, and the response is almost always positive (or at worst indifferent), but sometimes I'm not in the mood for the game of 20 Questions that can result, and the subsequent attention, nor to be defined by being an FA. Is this fair of me?
> 
> ...



I work a dead end office job but part time I'm a marginally accomplished classical vocalist. Not everybody knows this and I don't advertise. I'm not in the closet. Everytime I encounter someone in the elevator or in the hall people ask me how's the singing going. Drives me insane. Sometimes I wish people didn't know because I get sick of talking about it, sick of being asked about it. Love singing, but still...

There are folks out there who blurt out things like, "You should go on American Idol!!" First of all, I hate that show. Second of all, I'm too old. Third, I'm in a whole other field. Before that it was the Apollo, Star Search, I should make a recording, I should be on the radio, I should be 'out there,' on tour, bla bla bla. The venue I've chosen is clearly not satisfactory to everyone but it's what I want. I make no apologies, I support others who've made other choices. Did I mention I get sick of talking about it? Oh, and I'm not in the closet or ambivalent about singing simply because I didn't 'make it' or I'm not doing it right according to expectations. It is what it is.

Now if I was ashamed of my gift, would never sing in public, cheated people out of money, was too chicken shit to do it though I really really wanted to, etc. that is a whole other story. You can see a doctor, there's a pill for it, serve your time for ripping people off and accept the lousy reputation you get as a result. You do what you do with what you go and try not to be shitty to people, lourd it over others or use it as some kind of whiny excuse to be an ass. Simple.


----------



## olwen (Feb 17, 2009)

edx said:


> I think this actually explains part of why a fair number of FA end up involved with thin women. A guy who is making a fool of himself trying to win a woman’s approval probably isn’t nearly at appealing to most women as a guy who can talk and joke with them and doesn’t seem to need anything from them. So I think FA can stand in danger of seeming very intriguing to thinner women, because they aren’t so attracted to them.



No...this doesn't make sense to me. I can understand why a woman would date someone she's not attracted to if she's a trophy and there is an understanding between her and her lover that she is there to make him look good in exchange for sex whenever he wants it and money whenever she wants it. It's easy for a woman to remove herself from the physical sexual experience if she has to. But a guy....how can you be with someone you aren't attracted to physically? How can you consider dating a woman who does absolutely nothing for you? What difference does it make if she comes onto you or not? How is it even possible? The effort it would take to get turned on - and make it last - seems like too much work to me. I don't see the danger.


----------



## altered states (Feb 17, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Question: Fat women make you a staring, drooling mess, BUT... You don't want it known that you like fat women and your significant other is not fat...
> 
> Do you also taunt fat ladies as they walk down the street, yelling at them to join the gym?
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but as a fat woman, I have zero use for a "fat admirer" who really doesn't seem to admire fat women so much as fetishize them. If you "admired" fat women and thought highly of them, Tres, you wouldn't have a problem occasionally coming off as proud of that to your buds. You don't have to be an activist, but hiding is plain cowardly.



Come on, really. This is a big leap to make from reading my post. It was admittedly convoluted, but I think I explained well enough that plenty of people know I'm an FA and that I'm not ashamed if people find out. I was reacting to the fact that "closeted" and "uncloseted" are vague distinctions to make, and that as an FA I have moments in my life where it's just easier to keep my mouth shut. That doesn't make me happy either, but it's about getting along in a world where people and situations can be complicated, and I was looking for others' insight into my dilemmas. Glad you have all the answers though.


----------



## altered states (Feb 17, 2009)

Santaclear said:


> The way I see it, fat women receive enough shit in this world without us, the men who love them ALSO not supporting them. So we do a disservice by remaining silent when people dis, and certainly a much greater disservice by being "in the closet." What fucking closet?
> 
> There is NOTHING wrong with loving fat women. I don't mean wear t-shirts or yell it to the world, but being in the closet is tacitly agreeing with and promoting the idea that there is something wrong with it.



If I came across as tolerant of fat-bashing, for the record, I'm not. I re-read my OP and it was a little vague in that section, but I thought I'd made that point.

The closet though is just that - keeping your mouth shut. But if you're not wearing the t-shirt and don't mention your preference at every opportune moment, are you closeted? Is it EVER okay to keep your mouth shut? 

I know an out, confident gay man who with his partner has vacationed with a lesbian couple. They do this when going to more conservative places, posing tacitly as two straight couples in order to not make a big deal out of their homosexuality. When I was in a Muslim country and someone asked "where I was from" (code for "are you Jewish") and "America" didn't suffice, I told them I was Greek. Guilty of betrayal? A fat person or a black person can't pull the same trick, so is it fair for me to "hide"?

I tend to think yes. I think you can be true to yourself and to humanity, and pick your battles and protect your privacy where appropriate. I agree though that sometimes it's not appropriate, that sometimes it's just hiding.


----------



## altered states (Feb 17, 2009)

mediaboy said:


> Maybe my thing isn't fat chicks at all, maybe its girls that like start trek and are well spoken and have wonderful senses of humor and fat girls have that a little more frequently than the vapid "omg becky these shoes are $300 dollars! lets get 'em!" that I put up with from most skinny girls



Kind of why I wound up with my not-fat girl for 19 years. I'm just that shallow.


----------



## Tad (Feb 17, 2009)

olwen said:


> No...this doesn't make sense to me. I can understand why a woman would date someone she's not attracted to if she's a trophy and there is an understanding between her and her lover that she is there to make him look good in exchange for sex whenever he wants it and money whenever she wants it. It's easy for a woman to remove herself from the physical sexual experience if she has to. But a guy....how can you be with someone you aren't attracted to physically? How can you consider dating a woman who does absolutely nothing for you? What difference does it make if she comes onto you or not? How is it even possible? The effort it would take to get turned on - and make it last - seems like too much work to me. I don't see the danger.



Who said no attraction? 

Maybe for some FA it is a black and white thing, fat is attractive, below some minimum level of fatness is not. But I think for most it is one (albeit a very strong one) of many attractors. Like if you are attracted to men with beards you will probably still find many men without beards attractive, just that you are apt to find men with beards more attractive, all else being equal.

Although I should have added: I think that is more likely at relatively young ages, when neither partner is as apt to have fully figured themselves out.

So yah, the way I experience the world and what I see of how people relate, this makes sense. If it doesn't for you....eh, obviously we experience and see the world differently.


----------



## olwen (Feb 17, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> If I came across as tolerant of fat-bashing, for the record, I'm not. I re-read my OP and it was a little vague in that section, but I thought I'd made that point.
> 
> The closet though is just that - keeping your mouth shut. But if you're not wearing the t-shirt and don't mention your preference at every opportune moment, are you closeted? Is it EVER okay to keep your mouth shut?
> 
> ...



And I think no, it isn't fair to hide. It's just another kind of privilege I can't benefit from. Thin privilege. Happy happy, joy joy.


----------



## TheIceManVer2.0 (Feb 17, 2009)

I hear ya man. Usually, even though I make no bones about loving my girl and thinking (and saying) she's beautiful, I am not the "yell it from the rooftops" type, either. I find myself more and more realizing that my own self consciousness about my preferences fades as I get older (i'm 27). Just the other day, I was talking with a male co-worker about a woman that he had heard about that I had seen. So, he asked me what she looked like. She is a real tall, real thick BBW. I described her as such. He asked if I thought she was hot, I said "yeah man, I like fat girls". I would have never blurted that out in the past due to being afraid of being laughed at. He said he was down with that as well, we both had a little chuckle, almost like everyone else doesn't know what they are missing. So my current attitude is:I like what I like, and screw it if you don't get it. Funny thing is, most people don't give a crap what your into. They like what they like, and you like what you like.


----------



## olwen (Feb 17, 2009)

edx said:


> I think this actually explains part of why a fair number of FA end up involved with thin women. A guy who is making a fool of himself trying to win a woman’s approval probably isn’t nearly at appealing to most women as a guy who can talk and joke with them and doesn’t seem to need anything from them. * So I think FA can stand in danger of seeming very intriguing to thinner women, because they aren’t so attracted to them.*



What you said. ^



edx said:


> Who said no attraction?
> 
> Maybe for some FA it is a black and white thing, fat is attractive, below some minimum level of fatness is not. But I think for most it is one (albeit a very strong one) of many attractors. Like if you are attracted to men with beards you will probably still find many men without beards attractive, just that you are apt to find men with beards more attractive, all else being equal.
> 
> ...



_You _said no attraction. So I ask again, how can an FA be with someone - a thin someone to whom they are not attracted? Even if that minimum level of thinness is below 200lbs but still considered fat? How can you get it up if nothin is happening? How can you be in the mood if nothing is happening. How can you enjoy being in a relationship with someone if there is no physical connection? Then you just have a friend.


----------



## CurvaceousBBWLover (Feb 17, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> In weeding through the Closet FAs thread, I wondered about the experience of the uncloseted in day-to-day life.
> 
> I'm somewhat out as an FA. "Somewhat" in that many people who know me well know the deal, and my policy is generally not to deny if the subject comes up. But I'm not the t-shirt-wearing/flag-waving type, in this and most circumstances). And if I'm in mixed social situations where the subject comes up, more often than not I keep my mouth shut about it. I've been outed in such situations, and the response is almost always positive (or at worst indifferent), but sometimes I'm not in the mood for the game of 20 Questions that can result, and the subsequent attention, nor to be defined by being an FA. Is this fair of me?
> 
> ...



You sound like a pretty normal guy. I am out about being an FA. At the same time, I see no reason to go out of my way to draw the world's attention to my sexuality. I generally do not bring it up unless someone asks me or if I am with other people and the subject of women comes up. My family and close friends know about my preference. But I don't proclaim from the rooftops how I feel about women.

The only other time I bring up my FAness is if someone is doing fat bashing. My mom does this quite frequently and it is extremely annoying. I dislike fat jokes as much as I dislike racial jokes.

I was very lucky to grow up in the African American culture, which is much more accepting of FAness than the dominant culture. I've liked fat women since I was a little boy. My preference did not become in issue except for a brief period in my mid-20s, when I started dating. I am happy to be seen in public with an attractive woman who happens to be fat.


----------



## fatgirlflyin (Feb 17, 2009)

olwen said:


> What you said. ^
> 
> 
> 
> _You _said no attraction. So I ask again, how can an FA be with someone - a thin someone to whom they are not attracted? Even if that minimum level of thinness is below 200lbs but still considered fat? How can you get it up if nothin is happening? How can you be in the mood if nothing is happening. How can you enjoy being in a relationship with someone if there is no physical connection? Then you just have a friend.



While I couldn't be in a relationship in which I felt no attraction for my partner, there are those marriages that exist sans sex. I believe that someone can be in a relationship with someone they don't have a physical attraction to and be happy within that relationship. I just couldn't live that way.


----------



## olwen (Feb 17, 2009)

Ella Bella said:


> While I couldn't be in a relationship in which I felt no attraction for my partner, there are those marriages that exist sans sex. I believe that someone can be in a relationship with someone they don't have a physical attraction to and be happy within that relationship. I just couldn't live that way.



I would expect that from an older couple. You've lived your lives together and life, children, jobs, health, ect has gotten in the way of sex and whatnot. After 50 years of being together sex becomes less important. It makes sense to me in that context, but as younger healthy people it doesn't and I couldn't live that way either.


----------



## altered states (Feb 17, 2009)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> You sound like a pretty normal guy. I am out about being an FA. At the same time, I see no reason to go out of my way to draw the world's attention to my sexuality. I generally do not bring it up unless someone asks me or if I am with other people and the subject of women comes up. My family and close friends know about my preference. But I don't proclaim from the rooftops how I feel about women.




I suspected I was normal (in this context, at least), which is why I did a separate thread as opposed to just chiming in on the Closeted FAs pile-on. I really do think defining yourself as closeted or un- is unrealistic.


----------



## altered states (Feb 17, 2009)

olwen said:


> I would expect that from an older couple. You've lived your lives together and life, children, jobs, health, ect has gotten in the way of sex and whatnot. After 50 years of being together sex becomes less important. It makes sense to me in that context, but as younger healthy people it doesn't and I couldn't live that way either.



Sex does slow down, which I think is natural. If people banged like chimps for their entire marriages like they do when they meet, there'd be no time for eating, working, or sleeping. "Quality not quantity" is my dad's phrase. 

Sexual attraction is also a complicated thing. I was insanely attracted to my GF when we met and I'm still really into her, though she's literally hundreds of pounds less than most of the women I drool over in the Paysite forum. It's two different parts of my brain, or parts of my whatever. Anyway, I think people who think you pick your mate from a menu are naive and have probably never been in a serious adult relationship.


----------



## altered states (Feb 17, 2009)

olwen said:


> And I think no, it isn't fair to hide. It's just another kind of privilege I can't benefit from. Thin privilege. Happy happy, joy joy.



...and it's why I made a point of saying this isn't something I endorse or am proud of doing myself, though I admit I have. I'd want to chop my head off too just for stating it, but I'm trying to be dead-honest here and get some feedback and discussion.


----------



## Jon Blaze (Feb 17, 2009)

I think I see where you come from. 

I still think actions speak much louder than words, but I've run into a lot of confusion at times myself.

I don't intervene in conversations often (Sometimes I do), but usually when my friends are making fun of fat women (Or thin women by calling them "Anorexic"), if it's somehow to me, I either retort, or give them a blank stare. When I was younger I used to get really angry and bold, but I see no point in doing that unless it gets heated. I just try to be straight with people. 

I'm in your same boat as far as opposition. I did get some, but nowhere near as much as I expected looking back. I've have to defend, but nothing big. The last time I had to defend was when one of my mothers' 35 year-old friends brought up my myspace. My response was "It's what I prefer."   
All she did was . Oh it felt so good.


----------



## olwen (Feb 17, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> ...and it's why I made a point of saying this isn't something I endorse or am proud of doing myself, though I admit I have. I'd want to chop my head off too just for stating it, but I'm trying to be dead-honest here and get some feedback and discussion.



That's my honest feedback. Maybe more FAs will chime in.


----------



## TheIceManVer2.0 (Feb 17, 2009)

I wouldn't say I was ashamed of liking big girls, but I really felt the heat from people when I was younger, from friends, from family. Obviously they were wrong, but being on the defensive over what you are into can lead to some reluctance on admitting it. I felt more comfortable in public places being affectionate w/ a BBW than when I was with friends. I had no prob smooching up my 300+ gf in public. Now, I am totally unapologetic about it. It doesnt make me anything special, but it does feel good not to be self conscious.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> ... it's about getting along in a world where people and situations can be complicated...



Brother, tell me about it! Having the option of downplaying your association with persons fat really is a terrible predicament! And I'd like to wish you all the luck in the world figuring this out.

:bow:


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Brother, tell me about it! Having the option of downplaying your association with persons fat really is a terrible predicament! And I'd like to wish you all the luck in the world figuring this out.
> 
> :bow:



Not what I'm saying at all. Chopping my post apart makes your point but destroys mine. Sort of why certain movies' ads say, "...terrific!..." when they're not. Obviously you see the word "closet" in any post and make up your mind based on that regardless of what is said within. You took a poster to task for misreading and posting on your "FA Shapes" thread but lack that courtesy yourself. Talk about hypocrisy.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Talk about hypocrisy.



Do it, baby. Talk about it. Laugh about it. Lead two lives about it.


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Do it, baby. Talk about it. Laugh about it. Lead two lives about it.



Will do. Two's better than (n)one.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> In another way, I'd just as soon not be made fun of, for any reason. Much as I hate to admit it, it sometimes makes me want to close the closet door a few inches more.



You start a thread asking people to respond to you concerning the merits of burrowing deeper into "the closet"... (btw, _I_'d just as soon not be made fun of for any reason as well as you do, but as a fat person existing in a fat-phobic culture, I don't have the option of closeting myself for safety.)



tres huevos said:


> Glad you have all the answers though.



...you get upset and defensive when you don't like one of the replies to your OP... (my reply that activism may not be _de rigueur_, but that "being in the closet" implies cowardice.)



tres huevos said:


> You took a poster to task for misreading and posting on your "FA Shapes" thread but lack that courtesy yourself. Talk about hypocrisy.



...you try to make this thread about _my_ having a problem, about _my_ being a hypocrite... lowering the conversation to the level of personal potshots...



tres huevos said:


> Will do. Two's better than (n)one.



...and you end with that old high-school-grade chesnut: "At least I _have_ a life!"

How cool for you.

I'm quite happy with the life I have, thanks. As a fat person--a person who understands and accepts that she can't NOT be fat, but who nonetheless won't let the fat-haterz define or limit her--I try as a ground rule to conduct my life from a place of integrity and dignity, and I've had pretty good results with that approach.

"The closet" is nothing other than fat-phobia. It's an abstraction grown from the idea that some people are unacceptable and that association with them is damaging to "cooler" people. Which is why I don't give a damn about what your personal conflict is with this: Your "I'd just as soon not be made fun of for..." is inherently damaging to me, to the way I'm built, to the way I'm made. There is no way that your "closet" isn't built on an idea that denies me, as a fat person, my full dignity. 

So to come on here, one of the few safe havens that the fat people who congregate here have left to them, to pose a question about whether it's OK to go farther into the closet, is patently offensive. What you were asking was whether we thought it was OK for you to behave from the assumption that it's fine to keep yourself nice and cozy and safe from the fallout that may come from associating with fat people. This problem that you posed in your OP is your problem and I think you should deal with it on your own time. But since you brought it to us... If you *must* bring it to Dimensions, I think it's disingenuous to come from a place of entitlement and defensiveness and to get upset and start flinging mud when you receive a reply that takes you to task for suggesting the possibility of upholding the idea of the closet. 

Stop dragging your fat-phobia in here. No two ways about it: the "closet" = fat hate.


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

I use Dimensions as a place to work out issues with people who understand where I'm coming from, FAs closeted and un-, and the fat women they like, or fetishize. That's what I interpret the site to be about. If I misunderstood the purpose of this site, please have me barred, because I may offend again. My life and my head is a work in progress - I don't have all the answers and I'm not perfect, and I fully understand the consequences of my actions when I invoke my FA "privilege" as they affect other people. I'm ambivalent about this, "ambivalent" being in the thread's title. I don't want to be this way. That's why I was writing. And all that's in the original post, and in follow-ups to other, more measured responses by people who disagreed with me.

You could have responded to me in a measured way, as the OP was certainly written. Instead you attacked me right out of the gate. Was yours a "dignified" response? The fantasy of me yelling to fat women "Go join a gym"? Or the part about me being closeted and hating fat people for being with a non-fat girlfriend, one I met 19 years ago at age 18 and fell in love with for her own merits as a person? 

I really have no idea if you have a life or not. It was a snarky response to the same. But you are indeed a hypocrite. You like to play rough all over the boards and then attack with both barrels when it comes back at you. Also I really wonder, as someone who claims to live a life of pure consistency in their sexuality, if your employer and family know about your rather robust presence on Dimensions. Not in the closet about that, are you?



Fascinita said:


> You start a thread asking people to respond to you concerning the merits of burrowing deeper into "the closet"... (btw, _I_'d just as soon not be made fun of for any reason as well as you do, but as a fat person existing in a fat-phobic culture, I don't have the option of closeting myself for safety.)
> 
> ...you get upset and defensive when you don't like one of the replies to your OP... (my reply that activism may not be _de rigueur_, but that "being in the closet" implies cowardice.)
> 
> ...


----------



## mergirl (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> You could have responded to me in a measured way, as the OP was certainly written. Instead you attacked me right out of the gate. Was yours a "dignified" response? The fantasy of me yelling to fat women "Go join a gym"? Or the part about me being closeted and hating fat people for being with a non-fat girlfriend, one I met 19 years ago at age 18 and fell in love with for her own merits as a person?



Tres, i am not attacking you but i wondered if you share the fact that you are an active member of Dimensions with your girlfriend? I Know a lot of couples have seperate sexual interests and are open with each other and are allowed to explore these on a pure fantasy level. Do you have that sort of relationship with your girlfriend?
I know that there will be a lot of people on here who dont consider themselves 'closeted' because they find nothing wrong with loving fat women but will never actually be with a fat woman.. kind of like admiration from afar if you will. If the person is bi-fatual i guess this would be ok for them but if they were only attracted to fat people i imagine it would be hell.
Also i imagine there are people who love big women, date big women, are open about that fact but wouldnt tell thier partners about this site because they would be scared that their partners would assume this ment that they were being fetishised somehow. I know this MUST be the case for many because there seem to be far many more out and/or dating Fa's than you see couples here..


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

No, I don't. She's aware I'm an FA though, and when she's seen "Dimensions" in my history or whatever I tell her it's a porn site. If she's gotten curious and poked around further, I haven't heard about it. We have an easygoing relationship, neither of us are jealous types. So I guess, yeah, we're one of those couples you talk about. She's fairly cool with my being an FA as long as I don't rub it in her face, and I feel like turning her onto Dimensions and the many candid posts I've written would be doing just that. 

The biggest problem we have I think regarding my being an FA is that she feels pressure to be fat. She's modestly chunky and generally not thrilled about it outside the bedroom, and I think feels real ambivalence about knowing I like her that way. She wants to please me like I want to please her. I'm no model, but I know she likes muscles and such so I go to the gym and attempt to keep myself in some kind of shape (attempt), and I like that I turn her on with that. On the other hand, she can't wrap her head around embracing fatness to do the same with me, and I certainly don't expect her to.

We've been together 19 years so, no, I don't see myself ever being with say, a super-sized woman, because for such a thing to happen I'd have to leave her. We do have a really good, active sex life, though like most busy people who've been together for a couple of decades it doesn't happen as often as we'd like. She does turn me on, both with her body and soul, even though she doesn't fit my ultimate fantasy. But then I'd say that defines a lot of good relationships. For all the attention paid here to FAs kidding themselves being with partners thinner than their ideal, there are couples out there where the partner is _fatter_ than their ideal and they still make it work. 

I think people who are looking for such consistency are kidding themselves and have never experienced real love in an adult relationship. It just doesn't work that way, where you pick a partner from a Chinese takeout menu, "Yes, some hips please... and dark hair... not too tall...." Dating sites that try to do this make me want to weep. Where's the mystery? The real depth of people's souls? Who knows why I'm attracted to my partner? Fucking EHarmony or JDate? I don't think so. It's something I tried to touch on in my OP but kind of botched, obviously reaching too far. Focus, Tres, focus.

The FA fetish issue is complicated. I have a running discussion with someone on this subject outside of Dimensions. I don't (think I) know any FAs personally, but I do know a lot of men and I'm convinced all men fetishize to an extent. FAs fetishize in their way, but non-FAs do it too. I feel all pornography is fetishistic, right? And I know plenty of non-FAs addicted to that in a way that makes my Dimensions paysite habit look like sunday morning communion.



mergirl said:


> Tres, i am not attacking you but i wondered if you share the fact that you are an active member of Dimensions with your girlfriend? I Know a lot of couples have seperate sexual interests and are open with each other and are allowed to explore these on a pure fantasy level. Do you have that sort of relationship with your girlfriend?
> I know that there will be a lot of people on here who dont consider themselves 'closeted' because they find nothing wrong with loving fat women but will never actually be with a fat woman.. kind of like admiration from afar if you will. If the person is bi-fatual i guess this would be ok for them but if they were only attracted to fat people i imagine it would be hell.
> 
> Also i imagine there are people who love big women, date big women, are open about that fact but wouldnt tell thier partners about this site because they would be scared that their partners would assume this ment that they were being fetishised somehow. I know this MUST be the case for many because there seem to be far many more out and/or dating Fa's than you see couples here..


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 18, 2009)

I'll probably get myself in hot water attempting to explain this but here goes. When I was skydiving I learned very quickly that free fall was the part I really loved. The closest you can come to really, truly _flying_. (The old skydiver joke is "you don't say you're swimming when you go out in a boat so why say you're flying when you go up in a plane?") The feeling once the chute opens isn't bad, it's pretty great really. It simply doesn't compare to freefall and it's far more than just the speed at which you're traveling. Wish I could do be much clearer and more graphic but there it is.

So I can totally enjoy a smaller woman in and out of bed, it's just kind of an incomplete experience for me. It's sort of like a Reader's Digest Condensed Version of a classic book you've read in the original. Still excellent but not quite what you were looking forward to. Something's missing and you just feel it/ Exciting but not _exhilarating_, like when you wait as long as you can to open your chute. Sounds like a matter of degrees I suppose but it's far more. To paraphrase mark Twain, 'the difference between a BIG beautiful woman and a beautiful woman is like the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.'

So why settle for less than what you want? Moreover why apologize for or deny whatever that is? I'm not criticizing Tres here, honestly. I think we've all found ourselves in one closet or another at some point? Not mine to judge. 

The majority of the tiny number of people who have ever skydived have done it only once and can be satisfied with that memory forever. Most will never even consider it. That's a shame imo, so I'm always happy to talk about skydiving to people who have never tried it, as well as those who have. A few will always think I'm crazy and so what? 

I've certainly relished SS/BBW infinitely more than freefall, so I feel at least the same responsibility to talk about that candidly whenever the opportunity presents itself. Maybe I'll open someone's mind to something wonderful, maybe I'll just keep it from closing a little bit? I think it's kind of a golden rule thing for me, basically? It's what I'd want someone to do for me if I didn't know what I was missing. 

Anyway I think it's a good inquiry, Tres. Wherever you are is wherever you're supposed to be, if that makes any zense? And for those who share Fascinata's perspective I'll close with one of my fave quotes from _Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun_ - "Every Hun serves a purpose, even if only as a bad example."  :bow:


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 18, 2009)

Tres, the problem with these discussions is that it invokes the cherished feeling we BBW/SSBBWs view as, "Oh great. Yet another conflicted guy who doesn't give a shit obout us one way or the other looking for compassion." You get to go sign off and put your arm around your skinny girlfriend and not feel a goddamned thing here but we're stuck grappling with what you dumped out on us. You know what Tres? There aren't a high abundence of men out there who say, "Hey, she's fat as a fucking cow and I'm turned on by thin women but I married her anyway and the sex is awesome!" No matter how wonderful we are no guy who prefers thin women is going to enter into a committed relationship with us for 19 years. Then the ones who do find us atractive merely ogle from a distance trading pictures on the net and storing up enough juice to shag their skinny wife and roll over slobbering about how misunderstood they are. And on top of all that when you don't get the warm response you're looking for you get to smugly mutter, "hypocrite," over your shoulder as you melt away back into your fucking ambivalence and leave us shrill harpies behind. Must be nice.




tres huevos said:


> I use Dimensions as a place to work out issues with people who understand where I'm coming from, FAs closeted and un-, and the fat women they like, or fetishize. That's what I interpret the site to be about. If I misunderstood the purpose of this site, please have me barred, because I may offend again. My life and my head is a work in progress - I don't have all the answers and I'm not perfect, and I fully understand the consequences of my actions when I invoke my FA "privilege" as they affect other people. I'm ambivalent about this, "ambivalent" being in the thread's title. I don't want to be this way. That's why I was writing. And all that's in the original post, and in follow-ups to other, more measured responses by people who disagreed with me.
> 
> You could have responded to me in a measured way, as the OP was certainly written. Instead you attacked me right out of the gate. Was yours a "dignified" response? The fantasy of me yelling to fat women "Go join a gym"? Or the part about me being closeted and hating fat people for being with a non-fat girlfriend, one I met 19 years ago at age 18 and fell in love with for her own merits as a person?
> 
> I really have no idea if you have a life or not. It was a snarky response to the same. But you are indeed a hypocrite. You like to play rough all over the boards and then attack with both barrels when it comes back at you. Also I really wonder, as someone who claims to live a life of pure consistency in their sexuality, if your employer and family know about your rather robust presence on Dimensions. Not in the closet about that, are you?


----------



## olwen (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> No, I don't. She's aware I'm an FA though, and when she's seen "Dimensions" in my history or whatever I tell her it's a porn site. If she's gotten curious and poked around further, I haven't heard about it. We have an easygoing relationship, neither of us are jealous types. So I guess, yeah, we're one of those couples you talk about. She's fairly cool with my being an FA as long as I don't rub it in her face, and I feel like turning her onto Dimensions and the many candid posts I've written would be doing just that.
> 
> The biggest problem we have I think regarding my being an FA is that she feels pressure to be fat. She's modestly chunky and generally not thrilled about it outside the bedroom, and I think feels real ambivalence about knowing I like her that way. She wants to please me like I want to please her. I'm no model, but I know she likes muscles and such so I go to the gym and attempt to keep myself in some kind of shape (attempt), and I like that I turn her on with that. On the other hand, she can't wrap her head around embracing fatness to do the same with me, and I certainly don't expect her to.
> 
> ...



"So everybody else is doing it so why can't I?" is basically what you're saying. What a cop out. 

ETA: Since I'm just a fetish and as such don't really exist, I'll just pretend to be angry.


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

Wow, this fantasy closet FA you guys have constructed is a real asshole. But please, keep going, and keep posing nude for him, writing your fantasies for him, hating him. Seems like a far less healthy outlet than mine, though.



LillyBBBW said:


> Tres, the problem with these discussions is that it invokes the cherished feeling we BBW/SSBBWs view as, "Oh great. Yet another conflicted guy who doesn't give a shit obout us one way or the other looking for compassion." You get to go sign off and put your arm around your skinny girlfriend and not feel a goddamned thing here but we're stuck grappling with what you dumped out on us. You know what Tres? There aren't a high abundence of men out there who say, "Hey, she's fat as a fucking cow and I'm turned on by thin women but I married her anyway and the sex is awesome!" No matter how wonderful we are no guy who prefers thin women is going to enter into a committed relationship with us for 19 years. Then the ones who do find us atractive merely ogle from a distance trading pictures on the net and storing up enough juice to shag their skinny wife and roll over slobbering about how misunderstood they are. And on top of all that when you don't get the warm response you're looking for you get to smugly mutter, "hypocrite," over your shoulder as you melt away back into your fucking ambivalence and leave us shrill harpies behind. Must be nice.


----------



## olwen (Feb 18, 2009)

Tres, I don't think we're misreading you. 

What you are saying basically is you might be closeted, buuuuuut...you don't really care. What's more you expect us to be okay with that. Wrong. We can not be ambivalent about who we are, so why should you get to be ambivalent about fetishizing us? Why fetishize at all? Then you try to justify your ambivalence by saying men fetishize women as a rule so it must be okay. We're supposed to accept that we are going to be feitishes to men because that's just the way it is? You honestly think our responses to that are going to be "Gee Tres, I hear ya. Don't I know it buddy?" 

Seriously?!?
















Seriously?!?


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

It seems to me like my posts here are like a rorschach test for whatever people have on their minds above and beyond - quite far beyond - what the words actually say, but that's life on the internet. I keep rereading my stuff wondering what I'm missing, but it's like finding shapes in clouds. You are what you represent in people's perceptions. I have no idea if I'm where I'm supposed to be, but I'm certainly not asking permission or acceptance or compassion for any of my behavior or thought patterns - quite the opposite.



Ernest Nagel said:


> ...
> 
> So why settle for less than what you want? Moreover why apologize for or deny whatever that is? I'm not criticizing Tres here, honestly. I think we've all found ourselves in one closet or another at some point? Not mine to judge.
> 
> ...





olwen said:


> "So everybody else is doing it so why can't I?" is basically what you're saying. What a cop out.
> 
> ETA: Since I'm just a fetish and as such don't really exist, I'll just pretend to be angry.


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm saying fetishizing is a universal male sexual trait, and there's not much you or I can do to change that. Violence seems to be a universal human trait, I don't apologize for that either. I don't mind if people disagree with me - I just want it to be about what I write, not what I represent.



olwen said:


> Tres, I don't think we're misreading you.
> 
> What you are saying basically is you might be closeted, buuuuuut...you don't really care. What's more you expect us to be okay with that. Wrong. We can not be ambivalent about who we are, so why should you get to be ambivalent about fetishizing us? Why fetishize at all? Then you try to justify your ambivalence by saying men fetishize women as a rule so it must be okay. We're supposed to accept that we are going to be feitishes to men because that's just the way it is? You honestly think our responses to that are going to be "Gee Tres, I hear ya. Don't I know it buddy?"
> 
> ...


----------



## olwen (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I'm saying fetishizing is a universal male sexual trait, and there's not much you or I can do to change that. Violence seems to be a universal human trait, I don't apologize for that either. I don't mind if people disagree with me - I just want it to be about what I write, not what I represent.



But it is about what you represent. You have to be able to say - "Enough!" at some point, otherwise you're just perpetuating the hate. But you like the privileges that such conformity affords you, so you've no reason to stop. Like I said, It's a cop out. Why rock the boat when you don't feel like swimming eh?

Thanks for telling it like it is. We seem to have needed the update cause you know we seemed to have missed it all the other hundred thousand times we've heard it. 

*Expletive deleted*


----------



## elle camino (Feb 18, 2009)

Lilly I'm knighting you Righty Von Correctinstein-Nailonthehead the first. and last.


----------



## Smushygirl (Feb 18, 2009)

elle camino said:


> Lilly I'm knighting you Righty Von Correctinstein-Nailonthehead the first. and last.



Ain't she somethin'?!!


----------



## elle camino (Feb 18, 2009)

sometimes i have to read her posts through a pinhole projector.


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

But I do, and I said that. I don't allow fat bashing. I tell people I'm an FA. I have friendships with fat women. I dated fat women before I met my current partner. I like puppies and flowers. I asked am I being dishonest in not telling certain - certain - people I'm an FA because it can be all-defining in a way I'm not necessarily comfortable with. I understand this is off-putting to others, especially here. It's off-putting to me, and I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile the closed and open sides of me. If I come off smug or reveling in my privilege, jesus christ, that's not the case at all - quite the opposite.

I've been told privately I'm not making my case very well but this is as close as I can get to it. My head is spinning.



olwen said:


> But it is about what you represent. You have to be able to say - "Enough!" at some point, otherwise you're just perpetuating the hate. But you like the privileges that such conformity affords you, so you've no reason to stop. Like I said, It's a cop out. Why rock the boat when you don't feel like swimming eh?
> 
> Thanks for telling it like it is. We seem to have needed the update cause you know we seemed to have missed it all the other hundred thousand times we've heard it.
> 
> *Expletive deleted*


----------



## olwen (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> But I do, and I said that. I don't allow fat bashing. I tell people I'm an FA. I have friendships with fat women. I dated fat women before I met my current partner. I like puppies and flowers. I asked am I being dishonest in not telling certain - certain - people I'm an FA because it can be all-defining in a way I'm not necessarily comfortable with. I understand this is off-putting to others, especially here. It's off-putting to me, and I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile the closed and open sides of me. If I come off smug or reveling in my privilege, jesus christ, that's not the case at all - quite the opposite.
> 
> I've been told privately I'm not making my case very well but this is as close as I can get to it. My head is spinning.




You're an FA who's married to a thin woman. Okay....that's the choice you made. None of us can tell you how to reconcile that choice. Why should we even try to do so if it denigrates us as fat people? Just own it and be done with it - without asking fat people for permission, cause you know you're not gonna get it, not here anyway. But who knows...maybe you will. ::shrugs::

And you *do* reap the benefits of all those aforementioned privileges. If it makes you feel guilty, then you just have to find a way deal with it. 


The truth hurts when it bonks you on the head don't it?


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

My OP was about being silent in certain situations, where I don't declare my FAhood though I should. I'm not asking for permission to be with a thin person, nor do I care what anyone thinks of it, here or anywhere else. One has nothing to do with the other. 

I was asked, separately, if my partner knew I was on Dimensions. I tried to explain why she doesn't know, and thought it relevant that she doesn't resemble a lot of the women here. She does resemble some, though that doesn't fit into the perfect closeted FA template either. So call her skinny, or thin, or whatever. Apparently in the cult of the green and gold boxes, those who don't fit into easily definable categories are cut apart to fit into them nonetheless.



olwen said:


> You're an FA who's married to a thin woman. Okay....that's the choice you made. None of us can tell you how to reconcile that choice. Why should we even try to do so if it denigrates us as fat people? Just own it and be done with it - without asking fat people for permission, cause you know you're not gonna get it, not here anyway.
> 
> And you *do* reap the benefits of all those aforementioned privileges. If it makes you feel guilty, then you just have to find a way deal with it.
> 
> ...


----------



## olwen (Feb 18, 2009)

Okay Dude, then there is no problem for you then is there?


...I have got to learn to just not click on some thread titles...


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

olwen said:


> Okay Dude, then there is no problem for you then is there?



Um, right... it's one or the other. Problem or not. Good and evil. With us or against us. Good FAs and scumbags.



olwen said:


> ...I have got to learn to just not click on some thread titles...



Nor to post 27 times within if you're actually getting nothing out of them.


----------



## Haunted (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm not attacking here.

But it seems what the ladies here are trying to say is They don't appreciate you claiming to be a flag waving fa stating that you love the fat girls while you walk down the street with your thin wife. 

To each his own. So your not with a fat girl, but it appears slightly hypocritical for anyone not just you, to post about How you really like fat girls but sometimes it's just easier to keep quiet etc etc. all while you really don't spend your time or share your life with a fat woman. 

Not sayin, I'm Just Sayin


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

I totally understand this. It's weird to me too. My partner is someone I love and yes, I too can't completely reconcile her with things I feel otherwise, though I feel like it needs to be done to live my life. It's uncharted territory, and an issue in my life I'm trying to attack head-on and not be schizo closeted and un- about. I can't get rid of being an FA and don't want to lose her. I'm sorry if that's threatening or offensive. When I fell for someone at 18 I didn't think, "Well, jeez, it's not like she's my ultimate preference physically - this could really be a problem later on."

I have to add - women can lose weight, due to illness or wls or whatever. Had I gotten with a fat girl and she slimmed down, I guess I would have to trade her in...? Would I be truer to the cause?



Haunted said:


> I'm not attacking here.
> 
> But it seems what the ladies here are trying to say is They don't appreciate you claiming to be a flag waving fa stating that you love the fat girls while you walk down the street with your thin wife.
> 
> ...


----------



## elle camino (Feb 18, 2009)

wait, maybe i missed this, but why are you labeling yourself as an FA in the first place? like why even bother? seems like you're saying you like girls who are fat as well as girls who aren't, sooooo....the shoe doesn't exactly fit. that's probably why you're having such a shitty time wearing it.


----------



## altered states (Feb 18, 2009)

elle camino said:


> wait, maybe i missed this, but why are you labeling yourself as an FA in the first place? like why even bother? seems like you're saying you like girls who are fat as well as girls who aren't, sooooo....the shoe doesn't exactly fit. that's probably why you're having such a shitty time wearing it.



I wouldn't have said this a dozen posts ago, but now that you mention it, yeah, you're totally right.


----------



## elle camino (Feb 18, 2009)

et voila. .,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Haunted (Feb 18, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I totally understand this. It's weird to me too. My partner is someone I love and yes, I too can't completely reconcile her with things I feel otherwise, though I feel like it needs to be done to live my life. It's uncharted territory, and an issue in my life I'm trying to attack head-on and not be schizo closeted and un- about. I can't get rid of being an FA and don't want to lose her. I'm sorry if that's threatening or offensive. When I fell for someone at 18 I didn't think, "Well, jeez, it's not like she's my ultimate preference physically - this could really be a problem later on."
> 
> I have to add - women can lose weight, due to illness or wls or whatever. Had I gotten with a fat girl and she slimmed down, I guess I would have to trade her in...? Would I be truer to the cause?



what got you in hot water originally was you made a post as if you where a struggling Fa but you Don't live as an Fa, I suppose 

No-one will begrudge you for who you love or your relationship but unless your living it. you might want to tread lightly when it comes to threads like this 

and i do understand that your torn between your love of your wife and your attraction to the fuller figure. But you cannot expect the ladies here to also be as ambivalent. or to help you reconcile this.


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 18, 2009)

Tres, sometimes honesty is its' only as well as its' own reward. You've said what was so for you; sometimes that's as good as it gets. You bared your soul and got handed your naked assumptions; your soul nuts kicked up between your soul-der blades. Get over it and move on. At least someone replied. I'll offer the following for whatever solace you may choose to take from it. 

"Honesty is better than any policy."
- Immanuel Kant


"I have found that being honest is the best technique I can use. Right up front, tell people what you're trying to accomplish and what you're willing to sacrifice to accomplish it."
- Lee Iacocca


"I hope I shall always possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an "Honest Man."
- George Washington


"Integrity has no need of rules."
-Albert Camus



"Never esteem anything as of advantage to you that will make you break your word or lose your self-respect."
- Marcus Aurelius


"The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience."
- Harper Lee

As for me, I'm done with this thread. I'll simply stand by what I've said and accept that there's no sure way to know whether anyone heard, let alone cared, what I meant. Shalom :bow: :happy:


----------



## Cors (Feb 18, 2009)

Being partnered to a thin person does not automatically make one a closet case. Maybe this is a sore spot for me, since I love kinky fat women but fell for a completely asexual, androgynous and extremely thin male. He is aware of my sexual preference and genuinely has no issues with it at all - I would not have entered the relationship otherwise. I cannot change who I am and what I like, and I wouldn't anyway. I don't live a double-life. I am completely open about being on Dimensions and various lesbian portals, have no issues about him reading my posts and even introduce him to my closer online friends. There is no ambivalence, and there is nothing to resolve. 

Obviously it is silly to announce to everyone you have just met about how much you love fat girls. How many typical straight guys start gushing about how much they drool over slim, busty blondes minutes after meeting them unless the subject comes up somehow? I understand that when you have a minority preference the personal becomes political, but there should still be a line drawn somewhere. People who are important to me know about my preferences and that is enough. Many acquaintances do too because the topic came up somehow - it could be a general discussion, an assumption I corrected or my angry response to a tasteless fat or gay joke. I will not tolerate any sort of bashing from strangers or lie, unless there is an imminent danger of physical harm. (Say, a group of homophobes are pointing knives at your throat and the only way you can get out of it is to pretend you are straight. Why not? Sure, it is noble to die for your beliefs but I am sure your partner can understand a situation like that and would rather you get away safely.)


----------



## elle camino (Feb 19, 2009)

this is like that time i made a thread about my ambivalence as a racial minority when it turns out i just had a totally killer tan.


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

Haunted said:


> what got you in hot water originally was you made a post as if you where a struggling Fa but you Don't live as an Fa, I suppose
> 
> No-one will begrudge you for who you love or your relationship but unless your living it. you might want to tread lightly when it comes to threads like this
> 
> and i do understand that your torn between your love of your wife and your attraction to the fuller figure. But you cannot expect the ladies here to also be as ambivalent. or to help you reconcile this.



Yup. 


You didn't read my post either. Awesome!


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

elle camino said:


> this is like that time i made a thread about my ambivalence as a racial minority when it turns out i just had a totally killer tan.



Yeah - I didn't bother to read the OP or much of anything else in that thread either but swooped in anyway with my snarkomatic© dumb opinion too! ROTFLMAO! :bow:


----------



## elle camino (Feb 19, 2009)

lighten the fuck up, eggs.


edit: and that _is_ a response to your OP, and almost the entire rest of your posts in this thread. and the bulk of everyone else's. 
4 pages trying to cram yourself into an ill-fitting definition - wasn't that time you could have spent kicking it with your hot gf and not giving two shits about what acronym you are? the least you can do is have a dang laugh at the end.


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

Our circumstances differ, to put it mildly, but that was my point. If it comes up in conversation, I don't hide. And I think there's a huge gap between keeping my mouth shut in neutral situations and where there's fat bashing going on, where I don't. I can imagine a situation where admitting one is gay is life or death, not so with FAism. It's about convenience at that moment, which may or may not be okay. 

My partner will be seen by some as an excuse to pass, with all the privilege that allegedly gives me (big house, fancy car) but I ultimately don't care about that. If I knew that was going to become the crux of the thread... well, I wouldn't have brought her up, but I thought it was relevant in others' perceptions of me, which is what this is about.



Cors said:


> Being partnered to a thin person does not automatically make one a closet case. Maybe this is a sore spot for me, since I love kinky fat women but fell for a completely asexual, androgynous and extremely thin male. He is aware of my sexual preference and genuinely has no issues with it at all - I would not have entered the relationship otherwise. I cannot change who I am and what I like, and I wouldn't anyway. I don't live a double-life. I am completely open about being on Dimensions and various lesbian portals, have no issues about him reading my posts and even introduce him to my closer online friends. There is no ambivalence, and there is nothing to resolve.
> 
> Obviously it is silly to announce to everyone you have just met about how much you love fat girls. How many typical straight guys start gushing about how much they drool over slim, busty blondes minutes after meeting them unless the subject comes up somehow? I understand that when you have a minority preference the personal becomes political, but there should still be a line drawn somewhere. People who are important to me know about my preferences and that is enough. Many acquaintances do too because the topic came up somehow - it could be a general discussion, an assumption I corrected or my angry response to a tasteless fat or gay joke. I will not tolerate any sort of bashing from strangers or lie, unless there is an imminent danger of physical harm. (Say, a group of homophobes are pointing knives at your throat and the only way you can get out of it is to pretend you are straight. Why not? Sure, it is noble to die for your beliefs but I am sure your partner can understand a situation like that and would rather you get away safely.)


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

elle camino said:


> lighten the fuck up, eggs.
> 
> edit: and that _is_ a response to your OP, and almost the entire rest of your posts in this thread. and the bulk of everyone else's.
> 4 pages trying to cram yourself into an ill-fitting definition - wasn't that time you could have spent kicking it with your hot gf and not giving two shits about what acronym you are? the least you can do is have a dang laugh at the end.



Trust me, I had my laugh when you were trying to define who's an FA and who isn't, HUAC style.


----------



## elle camino (Feb 19, 2009)

no sense arguing with someone so touchy, but for the record: i wasn't defining anything, or trying to. that would be what YOU were doing, and getting all raggy over it, for no reason apparent to me. what the heck are you so up in arms about, really? do "FAs" get discounts at gas stations and six flags? can you not dig fat chicks if you don't call yourself an FA? why is this even an issue?


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

elle camino said:


> no sense arguing with someone so touchy, but for the record: i wasn't defining anything, or trying to. that would be what YOU were doing, and getting all raggy over it, for no reason apparent to me. what the heck are you so up in arms about, really? do "FAs" get discounts at gas stations and six flags? can you not dig fat chicks if you don't call yourself an FA? why is this even an issue?



?? You brought it up. Why define myself as an FA? I don't. It's the term of art here in Dimensions, and in very few other allied places. Otherwise it means "Fuck All," or something having to do with soccer in the UK. The rest of the world who knows my thing knows me as "a guy who likes fat women," and most don't give a shit. I don't fit into _any_ real category outside of here (bald guy? new yorker?). But when I read people here, I begin to understand that my NOT copping to this facet of me, defining myself specifically in this way, is actually hurtful - even if it's in an abstract way. Yet I also feel it's a sexual preference and thus something I should be allowed to keep private at my will. That's my dilemma. That's what I was talking about.


----------



## elle camino (Feb 19, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> ?? You brought it up. Why define myself as an FA? I don't.



...am i in the 'ambivalence as an uncloseted FA' thread written by and about you, eggs? because i think i am. 

your 'dilemma', as you posed it to us, was that you're an FA who's concerned about being considered 'closeted' for a few reasons, among them that you're not exclusively attracted to fat women, are in a long term relationship with someone who isn't fat, etc etc blah blah. my response is: so you're a guy who likes thin women, fat women, in between, whatever, you just like who you like. so you're like pretty much everyone else. no closet! what's the problem?

also: being a dick on the board and apologizing in PM is a bit of a bitch move, but whatever. accepted.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 19, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Wow, this fantasy closet FA you guys have constructed is a real asshole. But please, keep going, and keep posing nude for him, writing your fantasies for him, hating him. Seems like a far less healthy outlet than mine, though.



Well I appreciate your thumbs up tres but the women here exist for themselves, not you -- so I think I will keep posing and enjoying my fantasies thanks. Assholes aren't worth forcing myself in the closet over but I'm glad you enjoy it! 

Now where were we? Oh, your ambivalence. You know tres, at first I supported you in this thread. I'm a nice person so it's kind of a kneejerk response. Essentially there is nothing assholish about whatever it is you are describing yourself as. The assholery began when you came HERE wallowing and looking for a sympathetic ear. You can complain about the depreciation of equity in your home, not getting a raise and losing value in your 401k to just about anyone and they would understand and sympathise. When you go down to a homeless shelter and think you are going to get sympathy there you deserve that half empty cup of coffee four hours old thrown with great force right at your head and you know it. The asshole here is you tres. It really is.


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

Huh? You didn't support me at first - you criticized me, which is fine, whatever, and wouldn't be the first time here. ...But then you piled on after I criticized Fascinita for attacking me, taking up her argument, which was _not_ based on what I was saying, but what I represented to her. I wasn't here looking for sympathy, but to discuss a dilemma. Two different things. I'm heartened that many people outside the cult of the green and gold boxes contacted me privately and seemed to get that. Less protective of the sandbox, maybe.

You talk about being open as an opera singer - quite brave in its own way - but are you as open as a Big Cuties model at work? With family? Or is it only on a "need to know" basis?



LillyBBBW said:


> Well I appreciate your thumbs up tres but the women here exist for themselves, not you -- so I think I will keep posing and enjoying my fantasies thanks. Assholes aren't worth forcing myself in the closet over but I'm glad you enjoy it!
> 
> Now where were we? Oh, your ambivalence. You know tres, at first I supported you in this thread. I'm a nice person so it's kind of a kneejerk response. Essentially there is nothing assholish about whatever it is you are describing yourself as. The assholery began when you came HERE wallowing and looking for a sympathetic ear. You can complain about the depreciation of equity in your home, not getting a raise and losing value in your 401k to just about anyone and they would understand and sympathise. When you go down to a homeless shelter and think you are going to get sympathy there you deserve that half empty cup of coffee four hours old thrown with great force right at your head and you know it. The asshole here is you tres. It really is.


----------



## altered states (Feb 19, 2009)

elle camino said:


> ...am i in the 'ambivalence as an uncloseted FA' thread written by and about you, eggs? because i think i am.
> 
> your 'dilemma', as you posed it to us, was that you're an FA who's concerned about being considered 'closeted' for a few reasons, among them that you're not exclusively attracted to fat women, are in a long term relationship with someone who isn't fat, etc etc blah blah. my response is: so you're a guy who likes thin women, fat women, in between, whatever, you just like who you like. so you're like pretty much everyone else. no closet! what's the problem?



...that by some people's definition _not_ openly defining yourself means being part of the problem, not the solution. I'm not sure how I feel on this. That's my dilemma.



elle camino said:


> also: being a dick on the board and apologizing in PM is a bit of a bitch move, but whatever. accepted.



Accepted, yes, obviously. Here's the apology, for the world, misspelling retained:

_I'm sorry for intruding in this way, but I feel strongly that I've been misperceived (my fault or theirs), thus my anger. I'm sorry about that. So here's my last post on the subject, in case you've gone off to do the dishes or whatever (and then feel free to ignore me)_ [followed by repeat of previous post]

A super-deluxe double-platinum box, coming right up.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 19, 2009)

tres, I don't worry about defining my preferences. Like you, I'm in a long-term, committed relationship. My physical 'type' doesn't matter. It's semantics. At the end of each day, I crawl into bed with the man I chose to spend my life with. Maybe a key difference is that he truly is my ideal physical type. Perhaps if I truly craved a red-headed woman, as opposed to a dark-skinned man, but I ended up marrying the man anyway ... I'd be struggling with defining myself too. 

As I mentioned to you, I absolutely understand where you are coming from ... I just think you chose the wrong venue to air your feelings. When I read your initial post, I thought "closet fatty lover with a thin wife". As I read further, I started to understand what you were TRYING to say ... first subtracting out the defensive posturing (as you no doubt felt that you were under attack and seemed bewildered as to why). 

Lilly's insight about choice of venue is brilliant (as usual). 

The only frame of reference I have is my own, and I will say this: I'd feel terribly insecure and upset if my husband was visiting Dims and perusing the paysite/BBW porn sites. I am not the jealous type, and I'm secure in the knowledge that my husband isn't the cheating type. For me, it would be more about knowing that he has a hard-wired preference for a body type that isn't mine. I'd be wondering all the time, how can he be with me ... and what is he getting out of our relationship, when clearly he fantasizes about being with women who are much larger than I am? I am curious, how your S.O. reconciliates this knowledge.






tres huevos said:


> In weeding through the Closet FAs thread, I wondered about the experience of the uncloseted in day-to-day life.
> 
> I'm somewhat out as an FA. "Somewhat" in that many people who know me well know the deal, and my policy is generally not to deny if the subject comes up. But I'm not the t-shirt-wearing/flag-waving type, in this and most circumstances). And if I'm in mixed social situations where the subject comes up, more often than not I keep my mouth shut about it. I've been outed in such situations, and the response is almost always positive (or at worst indifferent), but sometimes I'm not in the mood for the game of 20 Questions that can result, and the subsequent attention, nor to be defined by being an FA. Is this fair of me?
> 
> ...


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 19, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Huh? You didn't support me at first - you criticized me, which is fine, whatever, and wouldn't be the first time here. ...But then you piled on after I criticized Fascinita for attacking me, taking up her argument, which was _not_ based on what I was saying, but what I represented to her. I wasn't here looking for sympathy, but to discuss a dilemma. Two different things. I'm heartened that many people outside the cult of the green and gold boxes contacted me privately and seemed to get that. Less protective of the sandbox, maybe.
> 
> You talk about being open as an opera singer - quite brave in its own way - but are you as open as a Big Cuties model at work? With family? Or is it only on a "need to know" basis?



Now that's a good question, one I can't fully answer. I know that some people know about the affair I had with the head of security in my building before he dumped me and married another woman. Some know about my debut at Carnegie last year. Some know about Big Cuties and two people have called me 'Lilly' by mistake so it's probably more widespread knowledge than I realize. Some know about the boob job I got in 1992 and I ran into a guy who works in my building at one of the Heavenly Bodies events. To be honest I haven't the faintest idea who knows what, the grapevine is a mysterious creature. I'm not required to disclose these things about myself though and niether are you which was my initial point. This kvetching about the degree of outness is way overdone.

My family is a whole other story. They know more than they care to honestly. It hasn't changed much of anything relationship wise. My brother has even been my photographer a few times. I know, it's sick isn't it?  He's a nutjob in his own way so it all balances out I guess. They don't know about the guy I hooked up with at the craft fair parking lot last year though. Do you think I should tell them? Am I in the closet if I don't tell my mother what the inside of his van looks like? My boss would not be amused. I'm not in conflict about people not knowing who I'm sleeping with. Having a mental conflict about something so trivial is so over the top that the behavior itself comes off as highly suspect no matter how much you try to smooth it down. It's not what you say it's what you don't say. Why ARE you so in conflict about your life if you're minding your own business living happily ever after with the woman you love and desire? You say one thing but your actions say something else.


----------



## fatgirlflyin (Feb 19, 2009)

Haunted said:


> I'm not attacking here.
> 
> But it seems what the ladies here are trying to say is They don't appreciate you claiming to be a flag waving fa stating that you love the fat girls while you walk down the street with your thin wife.




I don't care who marries who, and I beleive that he can certainly be an FA while being in a commited relationship with someone who may not be fat. FA stands for fat admirer right? So who's to say he has to be with a fat woman to admire the bodies of other fat women? Shit, it means more to me that he's been in a committed relationship for 19 years. Fat woman or not, that's saying something. 

I think Tres maybe didn't word things the right way at the beginning but I didn't see that he was saying he was embarassed of liking fat women, just that he's not comfortable being all out there in your face about a sexual preference. That can be said for all kinds of people from all kinds of groups.

ETA: I just thought of something, and its probably not even in the same ballpark as this discussion. My parents have been married for going on 34 years now, have been together since they were 13/14 so that's 40 years together. My mom is a fat woman, has always been a fat woman and was a fat girl. My dad loves her, dearly. I can remember him sneaking up behind her and coping a feel, I remember him being all kinds of affectionate in public and out. But, he had a stack of playboy and hustler magazines in the bathroom cabinet from as far back as I can remember (probably still does) no fat chicks in that, but that doesn't make him any less of an admirer of my mother's body. 

I forgot already where I was going with this, but yeah there ya go.


----------



## bbwsrule (Feb 19, 2009)

Tres, I honestly don't see what anyone could find upsetting in your post(s).

First of all, I wouldn't consider you closeted at all. Perhaps using this term that obviously brings up very painful associations for many of the BBW's who have been used by certain men who just wanted private sex and no open relationship, is causing a problem.

I would venture that we should consider not using the term at all, because as many other posters have pointed out, there are too many variations to be covered by one vague term.

In thinking about all the "hot button" things that bother many people, I have wondered why I just don't experience them. Friends fat-bashing? I'm not that into friends. I prefer the pleasure of my own company (only because I believe this is something EVERYONE could do if they wished). The ones I do have, if they want to do any bashing of anything, as opposed to something worth listening to, I just don't want to waste my time listening to it. So, if I'm going to hang with someone I want maturity. Of course you can't get it if you aren't willing to reciprocate.

In my work, we have lots of laughs but people don't tend to make the catty remarks to me that they make to other people. Probably vibes one gives out. But I certainly wouldn't tolerate fat bashing comment if I were to hear one. So, I don't advertise my sexual preferences but people see how totally in love with my wife I am and can draw whatever conclusions they wish.

As to Tres being with a woman who is only a little fat but not his ideal, I have no problem with that at all (as if if I did have a problem with it would be any of my business). From his report he loves her, is honest with her, treats her with care and respect.

For my money, one of the great things about being married (or otherwise in long term relationship) is being really turned on by your partner AS THEY ARE.
If you can do it; not everyone can.

Finally, the whole "labels" thing seems to cause problems because not many labels can really tell the whole story of anything.


----------



## LoveBHMS (Feb 19, 2009)

> I think Tres maybe didn't word things the right way at the beginning but I didn't see that he was saying he was embarassed of liking fat women, just that he's not comfortable being all out there in your face about a sexual preference. That can be said for all kinds of people from all kinds of groups.



Just what I was thinking. I never got the idea that the OP was closeted or ashamed of being an FA, just thinking out loud about...for lack of a better way of putting it, how good you have to be.

I'm an FFA. I've become real life friends with a few people from Dims one of whom is a male FA. A few nights ago, at my job, one of the bartenders started snarking on a fat woman sitting at the bar. I just lightly said "Oh, I have a friend who is really into that...if he were here he'd be ALL over her." Another server heard me and said (very easily and naturally) "Oh yeah...I've heard of that...what do they call them? BBWs right? Yeah, I think it means Big Beautiful Woman...yeah, some men like fat women." Another time I mentioned being a chubby chaser and one guy said "Oh yeah..I went to school with a guy like that, he had a tattoo on his ass of those...you know the mud flaps chick? Only it was a fat girl and under the tattoo it said 'Chubby Chaser'...Yeah, that guy LOVED the thick girls."

My point being, many normal adults are aware there are variations in human sexuality and that extends to being aroused by different body types.

OTOH, as somebody who works with the public, my coworkers and I are heavily given towards snark. Nobody is safe---we'll talk about age, sexual orientation, gender, race, religion...doesn't matter. If somebody is in the mood for it, or you leave a crappy tip, you're fair game. I may not always be up for the task of interceding every time somebody snarks on a body type. 


That does not make me any less of an FFA and I don't rate myself every night as to how many 'teaching moments' I had with the rest of the staff regarding size acceptance.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 19, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> OTOH, as somebody who works with the public, my coworkers and I are heavily given towards snark. Nobody is safe---we'll talk about age, sexual orientation, gender, race, religion...doesn't matter. If somebody is in the mood for it, or you leave a crappy tip, you're fair game. I may not always be up for the task of interceding every time somebody snarks on a body type.
> 
> 
> That does not make me any less of an FFA and I don't rate myself every night as to how many 'teaching moments' I had with the rest of the staff regarding size acceptance.



I just call that base immaturity. Most people (I'd like to believe) grow out of picking apart others based on age, physical attributes, orientation, gender, etc as they reach maturity. 

Then again, I wouldn't really care what a waitress/wait person (or anyone else for that matter) thought about my own age, physical attributes, orientation, gender, or tipping habits. So it's semantics, really.


----------



## LoveBHMS (Feb 19, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I just call that base immaturity. Most people (I'd like to believe) grow out of picking apart others based on age, physical attributes, orientation, gender, etc as they reach maturity.
> 
> Then again, I wouldn't really care what a waitress/wait person (or anyone else for that matter) thought about my own age, physical attributes, orientation, gender, or tipping habits. So it's semantics, really.



I know...waitress/wait persons are so beneath you.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 19, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> I know...waitress/wait persons are so beneath you.



Insert eye roll here.

Also, a loud, prolonged WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHING noise.


----------



## exile in thighville (Feb 19, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Question: Fat women make you a staring, drooling mess, BUT... You don't want it known that you like fat women and your significant other is not fat...
> 
> Do you also taunt fat ladies as they walk down the street, yelling at them to join the gym?



b u l l s h i t


----------



## LalaCity (Feb 19, 2009)

Am I...the only one who doesn't quite get the purpose of this thread? The OP is an FA...he happens to be with a slim partner whom he loves, ok. He's not really in the closet, he openly admits to being an FA if asked, but doesn't necessarily feel compelled to shout it from the rooftops every second of every day...ok.

Some folks in this thread think they've ferreted out some disingenuousness on the part of the OP...they say he's still in the closet, taking advantage of the social benefits of having a thin partner whilst nursing a longing for a fatter one but since he can't be true to himself he's coming here to whine about it...he denies this, says this couldn't be further from the truth...ok.

So what is the purpose of this thread?


*seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm obviously missing something cuz I don't get it*


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 19, 2009)

LalaCity said:


> Am I...the only one who doesn't quite get the purpose of this thread? The OP is an FA...he happens to be with a slim partner whom he loves, ok. He's not really in the closet, he openly admits to being an FA if asked, but doesn't necessarily feel compelled to shout it from the rooftops every second of every day...ok.
> 
> Some folks in this thread thought they ferreted out some disingenuousness on the part of the OP...they said he's still in the closet, taking advantage of the social benefits of having a thin partner whilst nursing a longing for a fatter one but since he can't be true to himself he's coming here to whine about it...he denies this, says this couldn't be further from the truth...ok.
> 
> ...



*ZOMG* ((((Lalacity))) That's what *I'M* sayin'. _"Today I saw a white guy slip on a banana peel and I laughed. Does this mean I'm a racist?" _

Why would someone even need to ask this kind of question?? :blink:


----------



## tonynyc (Feb 19, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> *ZOMG* ((((Lalacity))) That's what *I'M* sayin'. _"Today I saw a white guy slip on a banana peel and I laughed. Does this mean I'm a racist?" _
> 
> Why would someone even need to ask this kind of question?? :blink:



*
Here's another issue to consider...Was that guy drooling at you and slipped on that banana peel? BBW pedestrians are just plain lethal and it's a fact that they can cause many a wandering FA walk into Walls and other dangerous obstacles 
*


----------



## exile in thighville (Feb 19, 2009)

LalaCity said:


> Am I...the only one who doesn't quite get the purpose of this thread? The OP is an FA...he happens to be with a slim partner whom he loves, ok. He's not really in the closet, he openly admits to being an FA if asked, but doesn't necessarily feel compelled to shout it from the rooftops every second of every day...ok.
> 
> Some folks in this thread think they've ferreted out some disingenuousness on the part of the OP...they say he's still in the closet, taking advantage of the social benefits of having a thin partner whilst nursing a longing for a fatter one but since he can't be true to himself he's coming here to whine about it...he denies this, says this couldn't be further from the truth...ok.
> 
> ...



thank you dear


----------



## Santaclear (Feb 19, 2009)

Let's just say that this is a "boys will be boys" thread then.


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 19, 2009)

Santaclear said:


> Let's just say that this is a "boys will be boys" thread then.



Or maybe it's a "boys would be idiots to ever go near these kinds of conversations in the first place" thread :doh:? Let's face it, based on numerous statements throughout Dims if you're an admitted FA who is with or trying to be with a BBW you're automatically suspect as some fetishist, feeder perv. If you're a professed FA who's in relationship with a smaller girl you're a hypocritical, closeted coward. If you're a non-FA who's not interested in bigger girls at all you're just too superficial to care about anything other than looks and societal approval, a sexist dimbulb. Lastly, if you're a non-FA who dates or is with a BBW it's probably because you think she's easy or won't cheat on you. 

I'm being facetious of course but not when I say I can see why some guys just lurk here. Not all men are jerks all the time just like not all BBW are PPW (Panties Pre-Wadded). Sure, you can find abundant anecdotal evidence for both, if that's what you want, but why not give one another the benefit of a doubt? Sorry, I thought I was finished here but I had to get that off my chest. Expectations really are just larval reality. Why not be a little kinder and more generous with them, y'know? :bow:


----------



## Haunted (Feb 19, 2009)

I don't know if it's a sign -o- the times or what but it is a very different community. we all have our own little quirks and differences and being part of this community gives us the opportunity to explore different angles about ourselves. Dimensions showed me that i am an fa and that i'm not the only one that prefers fat woman. What the op was trying was just exploring something that he may or may not be conflicted about and wanted some like minded people to chime in and help sort out his thoughts. i'v done it in the past i have a thread about objectifying fat, i have a thread about the guilt i feel for loving her size even though society as a whole is against it. 

i will say that in this medium it is very easy to misinterpret someones meaning and or demeanor about a subject, but so many people seem very defensive to start. i have started to type up some threads or responses and stopped abandoning them all together because, i could see the snark and attacks coming before it was even posted. every time misty or i post a pic or we talk about our relationship, it seems that there is always a handful of people that have to comment negatively, hey i'm sorry your having a bad streak in the love dept. but why shit in my cheerios. I'm also interested in feedism! but thats viewed as something akin to abuse and rape. 

and back to threads like this or mer's thread asking about closeted fa's so he's trying to maybe draw a parallel, maybe someone feels the same, maybe he's just playing devils advocate, Maybe we can all learn a little something by asking these questions. trying to understand befor tearing someone apart might be alot more productive!


----------



## olwen (Feb 19, 2009)

Haunted it also helps to say exactly what you mean....having a discussion in a public forum also means you will get opinions that are completely opposite to what you were expecting to hear. Such is life.


----------



## exile in thighville (Feb 19, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Or maybe it's a "boys would be idiots to ever go near these kinds of conversations in the first place" thread :doh:? Let's face it, based on numerous statements throughout Dims if you're an admitted FA who is with or trying to be with a BBW you're automatically suspect as some fetishist, feeder perv. If you're a professed FA who's in relationship with a smaller girl you're a hypocritical, closeted coward. If you're a non-FA who's not interested in bigger girls at all you're just too superficial to care about anything other than looks and societal approval, a sexist dimbulb. Lastly, if you're a non-FA who dates or is with a BBW it's probably because you think she's easy or won't cheat on you.
> 
> I'm being facetious of course but not when I say I can see why some guys just lurk here. Not all men are jerks all the time just like not all BBW are PPW (Panties Pre-Wadded). Sure, you can find abundant anecdotal evidence for both, if that's what you want, but why not give one another the benefit of a doubt? Sorry, I thought I was finished here but I had to get that off my chest. Expectations really are just larval reality. Why not be a little kinder and more generous with them, y'know? :bow:



a little bitter but all right


----------



## Haunted (Feb 19, 2009)

olwen said:


> Haunted it also helps to say exactly what you mean....having a discussion in a public forum also means you will get opinions that are completely opposite to what you were expecting to hear. Such is life.



i agree with you here it just seems like there has been very little understanding Mer's thread became a bbw vs fa battle at one point My issues are harder than yours, i don't see why it even became a competition. We all have our own little issues and having a community where we have these commonalities (Ie I like fat woman, You are a Fat woman) gives us a place to talk it out, a couple posters chose some incredibly wrong wording, but that doesn't have to devolve into a man vs woman thing, spank him on the pee pee and lets move on, he was wrong, a number of us told him so. 

we did all agree that there are closeted fa's that are predators and we all agree they should be drawn and quartered, But there are also the young, shy and not in the Know fa's and they do need guidance. But the comments and the attacks make it very difficult to want to speak up sometimes, and then there are the Fa's Like me or the OP that are out but we still have questions, or issues we'd like to try to reconcile.

For example i believe i'v posted about this a couple times. I love my GF emotionally and physically and sometimes My physical attraction gets out of control and i find myself seriously objectifying her, now she is more than ok with it she actually enjoys it and thinks it's cute, but my upbringing taught me that it is wrong to objectify a woman in any way. i respect her so much that these feelings conflict quite a bit. so i end up feeling guilty because i can't stop the sexual thoughts when i look at her! (I Know it's silly but it's something that runs through my head) I'm actually gettng better about it and it's not really much of an issue any more but it's something i was afraid of posting originally.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 19, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Not all men are jerks all the time just like not all BBW are PPW (Panties Pre-Wadded).



Oh, Ernie. Oh. 



My panties give me ass-rash, you know?

I wish you'd see how this actually earns (and entitles) me to a little compassion and respect. Won't you lend a hand to a poor BBW?

I think everyone should be nice to me all the time. And when they're not or when I don't like what they have to say, I want to be able to cast aspersions on them (and their entire demographics) and have that be the end of my argument. :bow:

Fuck personal responsibility.

And you're right. Women are ass-hats. 

Blessings!


----------



## Santaclear (Feb 19, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Or maybe it's a "boys would be idiots to ever go near these kinds of conversations in the first place" thread :doh:? ........
> Why not be a little kinder and more generous with them, y'know? :bow:



It's that the "closeted" thing doesn't seem kind or generous to me, Ernest, at all.


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 19, 2009)

I'd really rather you didn't put words in my mouth, especially when they're the exact opposite of what I said. Try following along here, Lizzie. (Condescension added just for tone. I really like you. )Expectations create behavior. You either accept the Pygmalion effect or you don't. If you don't then never mind, you have neither accountability nor control. If you do however you might want to recognize that at least _possibly _anyone who sticks around here for long _could_ get the impression that being an FA is a total no-win proposition. If you're ok with this eventually becoming an all girl or just girls, jerks and neophytes site, snark on. There was nothing offensive in Tres original post. He got suckered into an untenable stance because he felt unjustly attacked. Been there, done that.

And just FYI I used PPW because unless I bait my posts with crap like that they mostly get no reply. Civil or moderate posts by men are seldom of much interest here. See my previous posts in this thread. 

Fortunately I've had and continue to have many lovely BBW friends IRL who persuade me that it's perhaps just being online too much that makes _some_ bitter and snarky. 

And Santa, I have many fine gay friends who will choose to remain closeted to most of their world forever. A person's sexuality truly is a private matter unless and until they elect to make it otherwise. Being out as an FA is my choice and no one else's. I've talked about what has me make that choice because I think that's a conversation that might actually create a space for the closeteers to better consider their options. BBW are the best!! JMO. Wanting more guys to appreciate that is the main reason I still come here. :bow: Sure as hell ain't for the warm fuzzies, LOL


----------



## olwen (Feb 19, 2009)

Haunted said:


> i agree with you here it just seems like there has been very little understanding Mer's thread became a bbw vs fa battle at one point My issues are harder than yours, i don't see why it even became a competition. We all have our own little issues and having a community where we have these commonalities (Ie I like fat woman, You are a Fat woman) gives us a place to talk it out, a couple posters chose some incredibly wrong wording, but that doesn't have to devolve into a man vs woman thing, spank him on the pee pee and lets move on, he was wrong, a number of us told him so.
> 
> we did all agree that there are closeted fa's that are predators and we all agree they should be drawn and quartered, But there are also the young, shy and not in the Know fa's and they do need guidance. But the comments and the attacks make it very difficult to want to speak up sometimes, and then there are the Fa's Like me or the OP that are out but we still have questions, or issues we'd like to try to reconcile.
> 
> For example i believe i'v posted about this a couple times. I love my GF emotionally and physically and sometimes My physical attraction gets out of control and i find myself seriously objectifying her, now she is more than ok with it she actually enjoys it and thinks it's cute, but my upbringing taught me that it is wrong to objectify a woman in any way. i respect her so much that these feelings conflict quite a bit. so i end up feeling guilty because i can't stop the sexual thoughts when i look at her! (I Know it's silly but it's something that runs through my head) I'm actually gettng better about it and it's not really much of an issue any more but it's something i was afraid of posting originally.



I don't have any problems with discussing sexual issues, inner conflicts, or relationship issues an FA has after he's come out. None at all. It's the before issues that I don't want any part of. I just don't care if the FA is young and confused or older and scheming. Either way it irks me, and I don't have the patience to deal with it. If other bbws want to lend a hand let em have at it. 

As for the closet issue turning into an us vs. them thing, it makes total sense to me for it to go down like that, and I'm not bothered by that either. They way I see it, that's exactly how it is. If I have to fight for everyday things thin people take for granted, then my life is already a competition by default and I don't need some confused and scared person adding to the challenges I already face. I dunno...life is tough....It's just like that sometimes. I understand the need for a young person to have guidance, but I just don't have it in me to do that. It feels oppressive to me to be asked to help out in that way and it's difficult for me to say exactly why...I think because it means I have to revisit all the shitty battles I've already fought as a fat person; battles I've been fighting my entire life, and I know there will be more to come. It's like maybe asking a soldier to recount that time she stepped on a landmine...it's not a pleasant thought. And it's even worse when I do try to offer easily digestible chunks of coping and they get spit out. What did I bother for then? It's just a waste of my time that just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. 

I really do hope that FA space opens up specifically for the purpose of discussing this issue, even if it means starting one on another site. I really do.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 19, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> He got suckered into an untenable stance because he felt unjustly attacked. Been there, done that.



This, I agree with.

The rest of your post about showing compassion for FA's who are in the closet ... that's just not in me. Gay people who choose not to openly disclose their orientation aren't necessarily closeted. But I don't think that this is an apt comparison to make, anyway. Even today, and especially in certain demographic locations, disclosing one's orientation can lead to terribly negative repurcussions and then there's the whole "morality" spin to it, brought to us courtesy of Christ loving Christians. I just don't see the same level of persecution. It's not even remotely in the same hemosphere. 

I hope I haven't read to much into what you've written, Scott ... but if I have, I'm sure you'll be letting me know


----------



## Haunted (Feb 19, 2009)

olwen said:


> I don't have any problems with discussing sexual issues, inner conflicts, or relationship issues an FA has after he's come out. None at all. It's the before issues that I don't want any part of. I just don't care if the FA is young and confused or older and scheming. Either way it irks me, and I don't have the patience to deal with it. If other bbws want to lend a hand let em have at it.
> 
> As for the closet issue turning into an us vs. them thing, it makes total sense to me for it to go down like that, and I'm not bothered by that either. They way I see it, that's exactly how it is. If I have to fight for everyday things thin people take for granted, then my life is already a competition by default and I don't need some confused and scared person adding to the challenges I already face. I dunno...life is tough....It's just like that sometimes. I understand the need for a young person to have guidance, but I just don't have it in me to do that. It feels oppressive to me to be asked to help out in that way and it's difficult for me to say exactly why...I think because it means I have to revisit all the shitty battles I've already fought as a fat person; battle I've been fighting my entire life, and I know there will be more to come. It's like maybe asking a soldier to recount that time she stepped on a landmine...it's not a pleasant thought. And it's even worse when I do try to offer easily digestible chunks of coping and they get spit out. What did I bother for then? It's just a waste of my time that just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
> 
> I really do hope that FA space opens up specifically for the purpose of discussing this issue, even if it means starting one on another site. I really do.



I see what your saying, I guess maybe i'm more annoyed or bothered by the fact that since everything has always been a competition or an uphill battle for you that i really don't want to be the opposition, I'm an Fa and i"d like to think we are on the same team although i am from mars! and thats what brings us back to here.


----------



## olwen (Feb 19, 2009)

Haunted said:


> I see what your saying, I guess maybe i'm more annoyed or bothered by the fact that since everything has always been a competition or an uphill battle for you that i really don't want to be the opposition, I'm an Fa and i"d like to think we are on the same team although i am from mars! and thats what brings us back to here.



An out FA IS on my team. Men vs. women is a never ending song. Ah well. If it's any consolation venus and mars are never very far away from each other in the heavens. They're kind of stuck together.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 19, 2009)

Haunted said:


> i agree with you here it just seems like there has been very little understanding Mer's thread became a bbw vs fa battle at one point My issues are harder than yours, i don't see why it even became a competition. We all have our own little issues and having a community where we have these commonalities (Ie I like fat woman, You are a Fat woman) gives us a place to talk it out, a couple posters chose some incredibly wrong wording, but that doesn't have to devolve into a man vs woman thing, spank him on the pee pee and lets move on, he was wrong, a number of us told him so.
> 
> we did all agree that there are closeted fa's that are predators and we all agree they should be drawn and quartered, But there are also the young, shy and not in the Know fa's and they do need guidance. But the comments and the attacks make it very difficult to want to speak up sometimes, and then there are the Fa's Like me or the OP that are out but we still have questions, or issues we'd like to try to reconcile.
> 
> For example i believe i'v posted about this a couple times. I love my GF emotionally and physically and sometimes My physical attraction gets out of control and i find myself seriously objectifying her, now she is more than ok with it she actually enjoys it and thinks it's cute, but my upbringing taught me that it is wrong to objectify a woman in any way. i respect her so much that these feelings conflict quite a bit. so i end up feeling guilty because i can't stop the sexual thoughts when i look at her! (I Know it's silly but it's something that runs through my head) I'm actually gettng better about it and it's not really much of an issue any more but it's something i was afraid of posting originally.



Haunted I don't think most women were trying to shoot down the men with a "who's got it worse?" competition. We're only trying to communicate something that seems to not be getting through. Going back to my tale of the guy concerned about a 401k and looking for an ear among the homeless. That's almost cruel. Not that his concerns about the 401k are unfounded. It's just that homeless people are dealing with far worse and don't care about the drop in property values affecting the equity in his home. His issues are still valid issues that need to be addressed but consider the audience. It's all we're saying. I'm one of those in favor of an FA board for the record.


----------



## katorade (Feb 19, 2009)

As a fat woman, I'd actually feel really uncomfortable dating a very "out" FA. Does that mean I'm ashamed of my body? I certainly don't like to think so. 

I'm just a fairly private person. I don't exactly feel the urge to go up to every person I find attractive and point out that I do, in fact, find them attractive. I just need to know on a personal level that my partner thinks I'm beautiful. He doesn't need to go spreading it like soft butter on the toast of society. I can see how some women would find that very empowering, I would just personally find it a bit cloying and creepy. Now if he didn't stick up for me when someone had something negative to say about me, I'd be peeved, but who wouldn't?


----------



## Jon Blaze (Feb 19, 2009)

katorade said:


> As a fat woman, I'd actually feel really uncomfortable dating a very "out" FA. Does that mean I'm ashamed of my body? I certainly don't like to think so.
> 
> I'm just a fairly private person. I don't exactly feel the urge to go up to every person I find attractive and point out that I do, in fact, find them attractive. I just need to know on a personal level that my partner thinks I'm beautiful. He doesn't need to go spreading it like soft butter on the toast of society. I can see how some women would find that very empowering, I would just personally find it a bit cloying and creepy. Now if he didn't stick up for me when someone had something negative to say about me, I'd be peeved, but who wouldn't?



I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. I don't see the point of thrusting it in peoples faces. I might have fun with it once in a blue moon, but not always.

I still think actions speak louder than words... Or words ON A SHIRT! lol :bow:


----------



## olwen (Feb 19, 2009)

katorade said:


> As a fat woman, I'd actually feel really uncomfortable dating a very "out" FA. Does that mean I'm ashamed of my body? I certainly don't like to think so.
> 
> I'm just a fairly private person. I don't exactly feel the urge to go up to every person I find attractive and point out that I do, in fact, find them attractive. I just need to know on a personal level that my partner thinks I'm beautiful. He doesn't need to go spreading it like soft butter on the toast of society. I can see how some women would find that very empowering, I would just personally find it a bit cloying and creepy. Now if he didn't stick up for me when someone had something negative to say about me, I'd be peeved, but who wouldn't?




I don't think they need to shout it from the rooftops or walk up to every person they meet and give them all updates. All they have to do is just be out and about with fat women. Just do all the nice and ordinary everyday things they'd do with a thin person, but with a fat person instead.


----------



## elle camino (Feb 19, 2009)

katorade said:


> As a fat woman, I'd actually feel really uncomfortable dating a very "out" FA. Does that mean I'm ashamed of my body? I certainly don't like to think so.
> 
> I'm just a fairly private person. I don't exactly feel the urge to go up to every person I find attractive and point out that I do, in fact, find them attractive. I just need to know on a personal level that my partner thinks I'm beautiful. He doesn't need to go spreading it like soft butter on the toast of society. I can see how some women would find that very empowering, I would just personally find it a bit cloying and creepy. Now if he didn't stick up for me when someone had something negative to say about me, I'd be peeved, but who wouldn't?


one million percent agreed. 
'out', to me, means unashamed and affirmative if they're ever asked. it does not mean flag-waving. just a personal thing, nothing against ladies who think otherwise. 
case in point: i once had to ask a guy (FA, whatever) i was hanging out with to change out of a shirt he was wearing that said 'FAT CHICKS ONLY'. i hated telling anyone what to wear (not something i would ever normally do), and i really tried to ignore it or not care but eventually i just felt really embarrassed. i'll freely admit that my self-confidence is not 100% at all times (i'm not a fucking robot), but this was one instance where confidence or lack thereof had absolutely zero to do with it. 
it's just _tacky_. the worst kind of tacky. the kind where you assume total strangers on the street are just dying to know about your sex life.


----------



## exile in thighville (Feb 19, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Oh, Ernie. Oh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



these posts


----------



## exile in thighville (Feb 19, 2009)

elle camino said:


> one million percent agreed.
> 'out', to me, means unashamed and affirmative if they're ever asked. it does not mean flag-waving. just a personal thing, nothing against ladies who think otherwise.
> case in point: i once had to ask a guy (FA, whatever) i was hanging out with to change out of a shirt he was wearing that said 'FAT CHICKS ONLY'. i hated telling anyone what to wear (not something i would ever normally do), and i really tried to ignore it or not care but eventually i just felt really embarrassed. i'll freely admit that my self-confidence is not 100% at all times (i'm not a fucking robot), but this was one instance where confidence or lack thereof had absolutely zero to do with it.
> it's just _tacky_. the worst kind of tacky. the kind where you assume total strangers on the street are just dying to know about your sex life.



yeah, thank you. i always try to be in the mindset of "what would a guy who likes thin girls do"...a simple survey of that parallel will make you think "hmmm...wearing a shirt that says thin chicks only is pretty jerkoff." liking fat is normal so act normal.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 20, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> I'd really rather you didn't put words in my mouth, especially when they're the exact opposite of what I said. Try following along here, Lizzie. (Condescension added just for tone. I really like you. )Expectations create behavior. You either accept the Pygmalion effect or you don't. If you don't then never mind, you have neither accountability nor control. If you do however you might want to recognize that at least _possibly _anyone who sticks around here for long _could_ get the impression that being an FA is a total no-win proposition. If you're ok with this eventually becoming an all girl or just girls, jerks and neophytes site, snark on. There was nothing offensive in Tres original post. He got suckered into an untenable stance because he felt unjustly attacked. Been there, done that.
> 
> And just FYI I used PPW because unless I bait my posts with crap like that they mostly get no reply. Civil or moderate posts by men are seldom of much interest here. See my previous posts in this thread.
> 
> Fortunately I've had and continue to have many lovely BBW friends IRL who persuade me that it's perhaps just being online too much that makes _some_ bitter and snarky.



Ernest, it's often said that men are philandering fish. 

I completely disagree with that... The NERVE! 

But seriously. I understand the logistics of what happened and I agree that Eggs took an untenable stance. I disagree that he was suckered. It's your prerogative to call it that way and to place the blame for his failure to play nice (ironic that you're asking _me_ to play nice, though) with others.

Here's my position: This is one of the few places anywhere in the world (online or IRL) where I so much as *dare* hope that the idea itself of fat bodies having as much right to exist as others will not treated as despicable. This is also a public discussion board. 

When a member posts a breezily worded post asking what I think of his desire to shut the closet door an inch more, I'm going to want to express that I have a problem with that. What would you have me do in situations like this in the future? Should I measure and moderate my reaction against _your_ level of comfort? Against the OP's? Why aren't _you_ outraged that the idea of "the closet" was brought up in this thread, on this forum, as though it were no more complicated or difficult a concept as choosing a style of dress or of hair? It's well and good to say that this should be a cozy place for FAs. I do my part to encourage members of this community when they feel embattled or are hurting, and my best to make a positive contribution overall. But it pisses me the fuck off to be asked to be nice to people who end up being, really, not very nice to me. 

Tres may have used the wrong term ("closet") if what he wanted was to talk about how much to disclose about his private life to near-strangers. That doesn't matter to me--I don't see it as my responsibility to "scan" people's minds from a distance to try to tell their intentions. His OP--on a board where fat people and admirers meet to celebrate fat and one another--read like a consideration of the merits of enjoying a public life which shows fewer and fewer traces of a private delectation in fat women. I took him to task for that and I will take _anyone_ to task whom I regard as promoting the idea that it's OK to keep fat people or a preference for fat partners out of sight and in the closet. Around here, that makes me a harpy! Good thing I _enjoy_ ruining the fine good times that others could be having if not for my downer insistence that fat people are not dirty secrets. Give me a break.

You say you want a prettier, kinder Dimensions? Why not take it upon yourself to try to stamp out the ire aimed at outspoken women around here? It seems to me that the kindness might be expected to flow in both directions.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 20, 2009)

elle camino said:


> one million percent agreed.
> 'out', to me, means unashamed and affirmative if they're ever asked. it does not mean flag-waving. just a personal thing, nothing against ladies who think otherwise.
> case in point: i once had to ask a guy (FA, whatever) i was hanging out with to change out of a shirt he was wearing that said 'FAT CHICKS ONLY'. i hated telling anyone what to wear (not something i would ever normally do), and i really tried to ignore it or not care but eventually i just felt really embarrassed. i'll freely admit that my self-confidence is not 100% at all times (i'm not a fucking robot), but this was one instance where confidence or lack thereof had absolutely zero to do with it.
> it's just _tacky_. the worst kind of tacky. the kind where you assume total strangers on the street are just dying to know about your sex life.



I think that's what 'out' means to just about everyone. I've noted it before but there seems to be a lot of anxiety over this issue. To be out a person needn't do anything except live their life without feeling like they need to explain or apologize. There is no sacred tribal dance to learn or handshake.


----------



## butch (Feb 20, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I think that's what 'out' means to just about everyone. I've noted it before but there seems to be a lot of anxiety over this issue. To be out a person needn't do anything except live their life without feeling like they need to explain or apologize. There is no sacred tribal dance to learn or handshake.



This is it, in a nutshell. Outside of a Gay Pride parade or a 'gay ghetto,' where else do you see people waving flags about their sexuality? I sure don't see a lot of it, so besides the fat chicks shirts, what else is considered flamboyantly FA? 

Seriously, because I don't see any fat pride parades coming to a town near you, or a trendy bar catering to the fatties and their lovahs popping up in the rapidly gentrifying neighborhoods of your major urban centers, so what is this out FA behavior that makes folks uncomfortable?

Also, do you all ever criticize overt and flag waving displays of heterosexuality among the average sized? Believe me, its everywhere, and I wonder if this is as unpleasant to people as other forms of sexuality cheerleading is?


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 20, 2009)

butch said:


> This is it, in a nutshell. Outside of a Gay Pride parade or a 'gay ghetto,' where else do you see people waving flags about their sexuality? I sure don't see a lot of it, so besides the fat chicks shirts, what else is considered flamboyantly FA?
> 
> Seriously, because I don't see any fat pride parades coming to a town near you, or a trendy bar catering to the fatties and their lovahs popping up in the rapidly gentrifying neighborhoods of your major urban centers, so what is this out FA behavior that makes folks uncomfortable?
> 
> Also, do you all ever criticize overt and flag waving displays of heterosexuality among the average sized? Believe me, its everywhere, and I wonder if this is as unpleasant to people as other forms of sexuality cheerleading is?



Ah you mean the flamers! I'm uncomfortable with flaming in anything. There are even flaming fatties, some of whom are dear friends of mine of the highest order. They've got the Fat! So tshirt, the buttons, The nick nacks all over their house, the NAAFA Convention handy carry tote bag from the convention in 2001, a pair of awful sunglasses with pink frames and fat chicks in bikinis adorning the outer corners. G-d love 'em but it's not for me.


----------



## butch (Feb 20, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Ah you mean the flamers! I'm uncomfortable with flaming in anything. There are even flaming fatties, some of whom are dear friends of mine of the highest order. They've got the Fat! So tshirt, the buttons, The nick nacks all over their house, the NAAFA Convention handy carry tote bag from the convention in 2001, a pair of awful sunglasses with pink frames and fat chicks in bikinis adorning the outer corners. G-d love 'em but it's not for me.



OK, good example, but here's my question-do they go out all the time like that, or only at the conventions, the bashes, etc? I don't see the harm in that, like I don't care if everyone dresses up as a Cylon at ComicCon, but isn't that confined to a place where it isn't being rubbed in other people's faces who aren't part of the group, and it seems the concern with 'out' FA behavior is about the behavior that marks one as an FA to those not 'in the know' or part of the group.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 20, 2009)

butch said:


> OK, good example, but here's my question-do they go out all the time like that, or only at the conventions, the bashes, etc? I don't see the harm in that, like I don't care if everyone dresses up as a Cylon at ComicCon, but isn't that confined to a place where it isn't being rubbed in other people's faces who aren't part of the group, and it seems the concern with 'out' FA behavior is about the behavior that marks one as an FA to those not 'in the know' or part of the group.



LOL I lived with one.  She was normal in every way and had other interests too but was very much a fat activist. She wore fat jewelry.


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 20, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> This, I agree with.
> 
> The rest of your post about showing compassion for FA's who are in the closet ... that's just not in me. Gay people who choose not to openly disclose their orientation aren't necessarily closeted. But I don't think that this is an apt comparison to make, anyway. Even today, and especially in certain demographic locations, disclosing one's orientation can lead to terribly negative repurcussions and then there's the whole "morality" spin to it, brought to us courtesy of Christ loving Christians. I just don't see the same level of persecution. It's not even remotely in the same hemosphere.
> 
> I hope I haven't read to much into what you've written, Scott ... but if I have, I'm sure you'll be letting me know



Traci, the Gay/FA parallel is tricky, I agree. I'd really like to get into that juxtaposition as time allows on the GLBTQ board. The fundamental similarity is aesthetic conformity, imo. Society at large tends to marginalize groups that conspicuously and/or deliberately fail to blend in. The willingness to stand out from or disregard accepted norms is treated as somehow treasonous. Can't have that, can we?

Degrees of out-ness become really interesting here as we see how threatening unconventional appearances are to mainstream control. Lipstick lesbians = OK, bull dykes, not so much. For FA's liking very buxom gals is acceptable, SSBBW - very questionable. Aesthetic boundaries plainly exist for both groups but flaming gayness can be quickly masked. SS can't. Lots more to say here but I really feel it should be a separate thread. 

I'd also like to revisit "compassion" for closet FA's in this context. :bow:


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 20, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Ernest, it's often said that men are philandering fish.
> 
> I completely disagree with that... The NERVE!
> 
> ...



I'm really, truly sorry, Liz. I agree 100% that BBW deserve great compassion and respect and I generally try to demonstrate that; probably better IRL than here. I intend to talk more about what I think makes FA closet cases so offensive to BBW asap in a new thread on the GLBTQ forum. I was just demonstrating a particular gambit to a friend. I didn't know who would help me prove my point but I knew someone would. 

Goad or poke anyone about a sensitive area (accusing them of something you know they hate works swell. Tip: mine is misogyny ); use a mocking, condescending or just basically disrespectful tone and then step back. Feign surprise/disgust/disappointment when they lash out. Passive/Aggressive types tend to overuse this little technique but it's something that anyone can employ. Women tend to be more experienced, therefore adept at this if only because men are more overtly aggressive and easier to provoke.

Even when someone is aware of this trick, even when you practically announce you're trying to bait them it still works way more often than it should. I think that's because the visceral reaction to being publicly tricked and then shamed for it is to be infuriated? It's kind of like a sucker punch that works; you _should_ have seen it coming, but noo-oo! :doh:

So there's my FA lesson for the day. Be grateful no one reads my posts as some guys can become alert to this trick and begin employing a very effective countermeasure. Guys, if anyone's reading this PM me for details.


----------



## altered states (Feb 20, 2009)

I knew if I stepped away long enough everyone would eventualy agree with me. 

(That's a joke.) 

If my original post came off breezy, I sincerely apologize. I took it very seriously, and, if you can believe it, I spent a lot of time trying to properly explain and correctly word it. It was something I've been thinking about for a while and for various reasons has recently become an issue for me. If anything, trying to inject a tiny bit of humor or informality into it was me NOT trying to wallow or look to Dimensionsland for sympathy and understanding. I have a good life and I'm in a good relationship. I'm not conflicted about being an FA - I'm conflicted about the limits of expressing it. 

And no, it doesn't come close to the pain and struggle of being fat in this society. I had a taste as a fat kid and I don't think many personal issues would compare. But I did think this site was the place to discuss it. I was fully aware some people would have a problem with what I was saying and I was expecting controversy. After all if *I'm* not settled about it, that would be expecting people to have exactly the same level of ambivalence I do. Sample reply: "I don't know either, Tres. Good luck with that." [end of discussion]

My biggest issue - only issue, really - with the replies was when I felt I was being attacked because of what I represent rather than what I wrote. No one likes to be put in a box. We're all complicated.


----------



## altered states (Feb 20, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> So there's my FA lesson for the day. Be grateful no one reads my posts....



I thought you were gonna stop reading like 5 pages ago.

(Joke)


----------



## katorade (Feb 20, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I'm not conflicted about being an FA - I'm conflicted about the limits of expressing it.



I can completely understand this and why it would make anyone want to close the door a bit more. Nobody wants to feel like a spectacle to the "norm" of society when simply voicing an opinion. It gets really old and tired after a while. Not everyone is a crusader and there's no reason they should feel like they have to be for the sake of anyone else.


----------



## kayrae (Feb 20, 2009)

Hey, man, at least you have the balls to articulate your thoughts on the whole issue. And you didn't run away when people disagreed. Open dialogue like this is good.


----------



## Santaclear (Feb 20, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> And Santa, I have many fine gay friends who will choose to remain closeted to most of their world forever. A person's sexuality truly is a private matter unless and until they elect to make it otherwise. Being out as an FA is my choice and no one else's. I've talked about what has me make that choice because I think that's a conversation that might actually create a space for the closeteers to better consider their options. BBW are the best!! JMO. Wanting more guys to appreciate that is the main reason I still come here. :bow: Sure as hell ain't for the warm fuzzies, LOL



Gayness is a different thing entirely, Ernest, I really don't think trying to draw a parallel between closeted gayness and closeted FAs is that productive. The closeted FAs usually whine up a storm. Other than the fact they're potential paysite customers I don't see much reason it should be tolerated.

A "space for closeteers to better consider their options" is fine with me. But considering women get manipulated and hurt by these jerks all the time I just can't get with the coddling that much.


----------



## Santaclear (Feb 20, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> If my original post came off breezy, I sincerely apologize. I took it very seriously, and, if you can believe it, I spent a lot of time trying to properly explain and correctly word it. It was something I've been thinking about for a while and for various reasons has recently become an issue for me. If anything, trying to inject a tiny bit of humor or informality into it was me NOT trying to wallow or look to Dimensionsland for sympathy and understanding. I have a good life and I'm in a good relationship. I'm not conflicted about being an FA - I'm conflicted about the limits of expressing it.
> 
> ...My biggest issue - only issue, really - with the replies was when I felt I was being attacked because of what I represent rather than what I wrote. No one likes to be put in a box. We're all complicated.



Tres, my read on your OP was pretty much the same as Fascinita's. You said "ambivalence." To fat women, being "closeted" or "uncloseted" about them is serious and painful stuff.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 20, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Goad or poke anyone about a sensitive area (accusing them of something you know they hate works swell. Tip: mine is misogyny ); use a mocking, condescending or just basically disrespectful tone and then step back. Feign surprise/disgust/disappointment when they lash out. Passive/Aggressive types tend to overuse this little technique but it's something that anyone can employ. Women tend to be more experienced, therefore adept at this if only because men are more overtly aggressive and easier to provoke.
> 
> Even when someone is aware of this trick, even when you practically announce you're trying to bait them it still works way more often than it should. I think that's because the visceral reaction to being publicly tricked and then shamed for it is to be infuriated? It's kind of like a sucker punch that works; you _should_ have seen it coming, but noo-oo! :doh:
> 
> So there's my FA lesson for the day. Be grateful no one reads my posts as some guys can become alert to this trick and begin employing a very effective countermeasure. Guys, if anyone's reading this PM me for details.




Scott, honestly. ??? Strategizing for a gender war? This is going to be productive, how? Else, the talk of countermeasures and aggression and passivity and viscera being punctured makes no sense. If it's a joke, it's kind of a questionable one. I'm sorry, and I wish I did, but...

...I'm just not _capisco_-ing your analysis here, though I read the general overtones: Apparently everyone has sensitive areas, but men are from Mars and women from Venus? This isn't something I care to react or respond to because it just seems too vague. I apologize if I'm just being too thick to understand your point. :bow: On the other hand, if you are serious about communicating something to me here, please rephrase in a non-obfuscating manner. If you've said as much as you want to say, I can live with that, too. I'll look to see that support for BBWs you say is in the works.  Bottom line, from where I'm standing: When it comes to talk of "the closet", either you're OK with fat people and with your desire for them and you are willing to treat us as full human beings, or you burden us with your own fear of fat and become part of the problem. _Gracias_ and have a good _noche_.


----------



## Dr. P Marshall (Feb 20, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> I'm really, truly sorry, Liz...



Ernest....you know I'm crazy about you, but I've got to admit, you've thoroughly confused me. 

In fact, this entire thread has confused me, starting with the OP. I'm not trying to attack anyone, I just don't get it. Maybe I am stupid. It just seems to me that there is some soul searching going on here, but I am uncertain what the exact nature of it really is. Tres, I mean no disrespect here, but it really doesn't seem like any of this should be that big of a deal. You have a strong position on speaking out against fat bias and fat phobia (a good thing), you are not in the closet ( also a good thing), you are in a relationship with someone you love and have been for 19 years( a good and impressive thing), so......what am I missing? It seems you want to know if it is your obigation to speak up as an FA every time a group of men compliment or talk about the beauty of a thin woman. Yes? No? To me this could all be summed up with "she's not really my type" or "I prefer a larger woman." The only thing I could see in your particular situation is that maybe you are worried if you are seen as an FA by people who know your wife is thin that they will somehow think you don't find your own wife attractive, or that it would somehow devalue your marriage in the eyes of others. That would be the only reason that I could see this as an issue at all for you. Otherwise, really, what is the big deal here?

Maybe I shouldn't even post to these threads because I am not a MALE FA. Maybe there is something I just don't understand about the male experience as an FA. I just never get why there is all of this hand wringing over being "defined" as an FA. You are an FA, right? If you're not ashamed of being one, what difference does it make if you end up defined that way? Yes, the jokes and comments may get tedious, but is it really that big of a deal? I'm not being snarky, nor am I trying to be insensitive, I just don't get it. I think there are many legitimate FA issues, but being defined by a label just isn't one of them. But again, maybe I am missing something because of my gender or my personality or some such thing.


----------



## furious styles (Feb 20, 2009)

Santaclear said:


> Gayness is a different thing entirely, Ernest, I really don't think trying to draw a parallel between closeted gayness and closeted FAs is that productive. The closeted FAs usually whine up a storm. Other than the fact they're potential paysite customers I don't see much reason it should be tolerated.
> 
> A "space for closeteers to better consider their options" is fine with me. But considering women get manipulated and hurt by these jerks all the time I just can't get with the coddling that much.



this. 10


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 20, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> If my original post came off breezy, I sincerely apologize. I took it very seriously, and, if you can believe it, I spent a lot of time trying to properly explain and correctly word it. It was something I've been thinking about for a while and for various reasons has recently become an issue for me. If anything, trying to inject a tiny bit of humor or informality into it was me NOT trying to wallow or look to Dimensionsland for sympathy and understanding. I have a good life and I'm in a good relationship. I'm not conflicted about being an FA - I'm conflicted about the limits of expressing it.



I can't define what you should care about or how you should lead your life. I guess I don't understand why you see a need to express a preference for fat women beyond what your life says for you on its own. I don't think you should divulge anything you're not comfortable divulging to your co-workers and casual acquaintances, but then I don't see how this is an "FA-only" problem or why you chose to frame it in terms of being in the closet if there was no question of your being ashamed of your preference.

I'm perfectly willing to believe you're a decent guy and you know I follow your posts with interest. I called you on your OP's rhetoric, asking you to follow the logic of what you were saying to its absurd conclusion--that for all intents and purposes, you were describing a public life in which your admiration for fat was near-invisible, while you remained internally very "up" on your passion for fat women. _You_ used the word closet to wrap all of this in. 

I'm sorry you saw my response as a personal attack. I like to get to the point and I don't apologize for that--it's my style and if it makes me a jerk, I'll live with it. I'm not full of sweetness and light, not when it comes to certain issues. I knew I was hitting hard, but I _expected_ you to see my point about what for me was the illogic of your rhetoric and to respond to that rationally. I didn't ask you to volunteer details of your personal life and frankly it makes no difference to me whether you personally are in the closet or not. If you were, I'd sympathize to some extent but would have to leave you to figure it out on your own, as I just can't be moved to help others learn how to treat me with less contempt. And while I see in you someone who's indeed very passionate about fat beauty as well as someone willing to question himself and his choices, no part of my reading of who you are or may be IRL was in question at all when I first responded to you in this thread. What I was trying for was to start a down-to-brass-tacks conversation with you about the idea you tossed at us about retreating into near-invisibility RE: a love of fat, and about what that idea of retreating from visibility may imply for those of us who are fat. _I wasn't accusing you of anything that you weren't saying yourself in your OP_ and my question, as I said, was meant to challenge your rhetoric, not your lifestyle choices. The rest of what I said was purely descriptive of my personal preference. I have zero tolerance for "the closet" and think it's a BS concept that has come to be used not as a shaming label, but as a rationalization for people's bad behavior: The closet is where it's "safe" to "explore" one's "budding" sexuality. No, thanks. None for me. Not at this point in this lifetime.



> My biggest issue - only issue, really - with the replies was when *I felt I was being attacked because of what I represent rather than what I wrote*. No one likes to be put in a box. We're all complicated.



You weren't being attacked because of what you represented, not by me. I was taking you to task for your language and your logic. I'm sorry you felt attacked. I can't take responsibility for your reaction, but as a friendly gesture, I hope that I have been able to shed some light on where I was coming from.

See you around.


----------



## sweet&fat (Feb 20, 2009)

..........


Dr. P Marshall said:


> Ernest....you know I'm crazy about you, but I've got to admit, you've thoroughly confused me.
> 
> In fact, this entire thread has confused me, starting with the OP. I'm not trying to attack anyone, I just don't get it. Maybe I am stupid. It just seems to me that there is some soul searching going on here, but I am uncertain what the exact nature of it really is. Tres, I mean no disrespect here, but it really doesn't seem like any of this should be that big of a deal. You have a strong position on speaking out against fat bias and fat phobia (a good thing), you are not in the closet ( also a good thing), you are in a relationship with someone you love and have been for 19 years( a good and impressive thing), so......what am I missing? It seems you want to know if it is your obigation to speak up as an FA every time a group of men compliment or talk about the beauty of a thin woman. Yes? No? To me this could all be summed up with "she's not really my type" or "I prefer a larger woman." The only thing I could see in your particular situation is that maybe you are worried if you are seen as an FA by people who know your wife is thin that they will somehow think you don't find your own wife attractive, or that it would somehow devalue your marriage in the eyes of others. That would be the only reason that I could see this as an issue at all for you. Otherwise, really, what is the big deal here?
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't even post to these threads because I am not a MALE FA. Maybe there is something I just don't understand about the male experience as an FA. I just never get why there is all of this hand wringing over being "defined" as an FA. You are an FA, right? If you're not ashamed of being one, what difference does it make if you end up defined that way? Yes, the jokes and comments may get tedious, but is it really that big of a deal? I'm not being snarky, nor am I trying to be insensitive, I just don't get it. I think there are many legitimate FA issues, but being defined by a label just isn't one of them. But again, maybe I am missing something because of my gender or my personality or some such thing.


----------



## Jon Blaze (Feb 20, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Ernest....you know I'm crazy about you, but I've got to admit, you've thoroughly confused me.
> 
> In fact, this entire thread has confused me, starting with the OP. I'm not trying to attack anyone, I just don't get it. Maybe I am stupid. It just seems to me that there is some soul searching going on here, but I am uncertain what the exact nature of it really is. Tres, I mean no disrespect here, but it really doesn't seem like any of this should be that big of a deal. You have a strong position on speaking out against fat bias and fat phobia (a good thing), you are not in the closet ( also a good thing), you are in a relationship with someone you love and have been for 19 years( a good and impressive thing), so......what am I missing? It seems you want to know if it is your obigation to speak up as an FA every time a group of men compliment or talk about the beauty of a thin woman. Yes? No? To me this could all be summed up with "she's not really my type" or "I prefer a larger woman." The only thing I could see in your particular situation is that maybe you are worried if you are seen as an FA by people who know your wife is thin that they will somehow think you don't find your own wife attractive, or that it would somehow devalue your marriage in the eyes of others. That would be the only reason that I could see this as an issue at all for you. Otherwise, really, what is the big deal here?
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't even post to these threads because I am not a MALE FA. Maybe there is something I just don't understand about the male experience as an FA. I just never get why there is all of this hand wringing over being "defined" as an FA. You are an FA, right? If you're not ashamed of being one, what difference does it make if you end up defined that way? Yes, the jokes and comments may get tedious, but is it really that big of a deal? I'm not being snarky, nor am I trying to be insensitive, I just don't get it. I think there are many legitimate FA issues, but being defined by a label just isn't one of them. But again, maybe I am missing something because of my gender or my personality or some such thing.



This. Over and over again. 
(And you BETTA post in here FFA lady )


----------



## LalaCity (Feb 21, 2009)

_*BBW fairy taps you on your head with her magic wand*_

I, a zaftig female, hereby absolve you of all feelings of guilt and inner-conflict -- past, present, and future -- over your FA status.

Go forward and have a guilt-free life loving whomever you want and admiring whatever body types you like, without the need to "prove" yourself to anyone.

_*Bling*_


----------



## kayrae (Feb 21, 2009)

Lala, you make me laugh


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 21, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I knew if I stepped away long enough everyone would eventualy agree with me.
> 
> (That's a joke.)
> 
> ...



It seems to most of us that what you've described of yourself is just plain good manners and simple routine living. An inquiry about conflict using words like "closet" and "ambivalence" comes off as some form of tacit admission of guilt. People put that in what you said because that's what we saw. You should probably exercise restraint here for the same reason you exercise restraint in discussing Dimensions with your SO. People will see what they see and it doesn't necessarily mean there's evil wrongdoing afoot. If you want people to 'get you' it's not going to happen in a few pages. There are too many emotions attached.

My first post in this thread was a long way of saying don't worry about it which I thought was being supportive, not critical. If it came off that way I'm sorry, that was not my intention.


----------



## altered states (Feb 21, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> The only thing I could see in your particular situation is that maybe you are worried if you are seen as an FA by people who know your wife is thin that they will somehow think you don't find your own wife attractive, or that it would somehow devalue your marriage in the eyes of others. That would be the only reason that I could see this as an issue at all for you. Otherwise, really, what is the big deal here?



It's a huge deal to me. It impacts on her self-esteem directly, how people perceive me, and in turn how she perceives me and my feelings for her.



Dr. P Marshall said:


> Maybe I shouldn't even post to these threads because I am not a MALE FA. Maybe there is something I just don't understand about the male experience as an FA. I just never get why there is all of this hand wringing over being "defined" as an FA. You are an FA, right? If you're not ashamed of being one, what difference does it make if you end up defined that way? Yes, the jokes and comments may get tedious, but is it really that big of a deal? I'm not being snarky, nor am I trying to be insensitive, I just don't get it. I think there are many legitimate FA issues, but being defined by a label just isn't one of them. But again, maybe I am missing something because of my gender or my personality or some such thing.



It's not world peace or feeding the starving children, agreed. But if you're missing it then either I'm not expressing it correctly, or it's just not a big deal to YOU. I don't put a lot of stake in rep the way it's generally used around here, but I've gotten a comparative flood of positive reps from FAs telling me they understand exactly what I'm talking about. 

For me, being defined is a drag. Some people maybe revel in being the black friend, or the gay guy in the office, or whatever. I know these people and that's cool for them. I'm just not that way, and I wondered how other FAs felt about it.


----------



## altered states (Feb 21, 2009)

LalaCity said:


> _*BBW fairy taps you on your head with her magic wand*_
> 
> I, a zaftig female, hereby absolve you of all feelings of guilt and inner-conflict -- past, present, and future -- over your FA status.
> 
> ...



Tap me somewhere else and we've got something going.


----------



## altered states (Feb 21, 2009)

It was my reaction from sifting the Closeted FAs thread, so that's how I framed it. Wrong for some people, right for others apparently. It touched a nerve and hurt people I respect, so even if I felt wronged by sharp responses, in the cold light of day I should have let it slide and focused on the people who agreed with me. When I talk to a group of people, even if everyone else is in rapt attention, if there's one dude rolling his eyes or chewing his nails, I want to take a baseball bat to his head and watch the blood come out his ears. A flaw I have to work on.

I like you too, Fascinita. For what it's worth, when I was ready to chew the S key off my keyboard I was so furious, I tried to rep you sarcastically and couldn't because it was too soon since the last one I'd sent you. You and Lilly being on my case is like my absolute Dimensions nightmare. 



Fascinita said:


> I can't define what you should care about or how you should lead your life. I guess I don't understand why you see a need to express a preference for fat women beyond what your life says for you on its own. I don't think you should divulge anything you're not comfortable divulging to your co-workers and casual acquaintances, but then I don't see how this is an "FA-only" problem or why you chose to frame it in terms of being in the closet if there was no question of your being ashamed of your preference.
> 
> I'm perfectly willing to believe you're a decent guy and you know I follow your posts with interest. I called you on your OP's rhetoric, asking you to follow the logic of what you were saying to its absurd conclusion--that for all intents and purposes, you were describing a public life in which your admiration for fat was near-invisible, while you remained internally very "up" on your passion for fat women. _You_ used the word closet to wrap all of this in.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ernest Nagel (Feb 21, 2009)

Im sorry if anything Ive said here was perceived as divisive. That was absolutely not my intent. I have a great job that I love very much. Most of my time is spent unraveling processes and patterns to see how they can be improved. I work from a fundamental engineering axiom that any problem well-stated is half solved. That doesnt mean I work only on problems though. Mostly I get to work on how to make good things even better. I try to compartmentalize but its hard not to see patterns and gnaw on them anywhere I go frequently. 

Dims is a great place on a lot of levels. Compared to other boards I visit it has huge diversity, good organization and excellent moderators just to mention a few of the highlights. Given all that its hard (for me anyway) to understand why its such a shitty place for actual dialogue? Insightful, engaging give-and-take conversations seldom last more than a page or two before turning into fang and claw snarkfests. Participation is low and attrition is remarkably high. I was just kind of puzzling out loud here why that happens. Clearly its not an inquiry for general discussion and I apologize for how/where I presented it. Im discussing it privately with a few friends along with the renewed possibility of an FA board. 

Please kindly pardon any disruption or offense caused by the combination of my obsessive curiosity and single digit EQ.


----------



## Dr. P Marshall (Feb 21, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> It's a huge deal to me. It impacts on her self-esteem directly, how people perceive me, and in turn how she perceives me and my feelings for her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, after reading your response to me and then rereading your other posts, I think I do get it. I'm sorry if I put you on the defensive, that was not my intention. For what it's worth, I don't think a person has to wave flags or anything like that about any aspect of themselves. Some choose to, some don't.....I think as long as you are living honestly, the level of vocalness on a subject, especially sexuality, is really up to each individual. It sounded to me in your OP like you ARE living honestly. That there is no denial, no closet. I guess I just meant that if it accidentally happened that you got labeled "the guy who likes fat women" I didn't see why that was a big deal UNLESS it upset your wife. And now that you have made it perfectly clear that these things do upset her, then yes, I can see why for you it is a huge deal. 

Now, others may disagree with me, but I feel that your primary concern should always be for the well being of the woman you've spent 19 years building a life with. (I'm not saying it's not for you right now. Obviously it is or you wouldn't be doing this soul searching.) I guess what I mean is, if keeping quiet in a situation keeps from hurting your wife, you shouldn't feel guilty about it in my opinion. I'm not talking about being closeted, but neither are you as far as I can tell, and I still think that your relationship with your wife is what matters most in these situations. Although, I do hope this is a subject you two talk about (how these situations make her feel and how they make you feel) because it seems that this is a situation that the two of you will always have to be working on together on some level in order to find a balance that works. Having said that, you two have made it work for 19 years, so you must know what you're doing. 

Anyway, I wish you both well and I am sorry if it appeared that I was belittling your situation, that was absolutely NOT my intention. I really was just seeking clarification.:bow:


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't know.............I just read the whole thing. I see that everyone got mad and now everyone is apologizing to each other. So....I'm late to a thread again. Subscribing to so many makes it hard to get to the newer ones I suppose :doh:

Eh, I'm going to air my opinions anyway....late or not. 



tres huevos said:


> I* use Dimensions as a place to work out issues with people who understand where I'm coming from, FAs closeted and un-, and the fat women they like, or fetishize. That's what I interpret the site to be about.* If I misunderstood the purpose of this site, please have me barred, because I may offend again. My life and my head is a work in progress - I don't have all the answers and I'm not perfect, and I fully understand the consequences of my actions when I invoke my FA "privilege" as they affect other people. I'm ambivalent about this, "ambivalent" being in the thread's title. I don't want to be this way. That's why I was writing. And all that's in the original post, and in follow-ups to other, more measured responses by people who disagreed with me.





tres huevos said:


> The FA fetish issue is complicated. I have a running discussion with someone on this subject outside of Dimensions. I don't (think I) know any FAs personally, but I do know a lot of men and I'm convinced all men fetishize to an extent. FAs fetishize in their way, but non-FAs do it too. I feel all pornography is fetishistic, right? And I know plenty of non-FAs addicted to that in a way that makes my Dimensions paysite habit look like sunday morning communion.



I don't care if you are married to a thin woman. I don't care if you don't "defend" all fat people or diss all thin women....I do care about being called a fetish. I post pics here, I post my thoughts and feelings here, I try to contribute in a positive way.....and maybe in a not so positive yet honest way when I'm pissed off. That being said....it all means I am human. This is a site full of real people....the women here are all real. The posts you read here......they are not computer generated but authored by live human beings. Don't disconnect and come here to appease these "other desires" you have if you cannot fully comprehend that real people run among the threads. 
This site is not just about FAs...this site is about MANY PEOPLE. Real People. 
Some of those people have fetishes....some do not. ALL ARE PEOPLE THOUGH. 

Hope I made myself clear....and that this helps you to understand some anger/resentment you might feel from your "fetishes" from time to time. 

If you come here just to see the pics and get off with your fetish and regard this as a "porn site", why come to this board, air your feelings, look for support among nothing more than fetishes? 

You either respect the other human beings here or you don't........but please don't dehumanize people because you desire them. 





LillyBBBW said:


> Tres, the problem with these discussions is that it invokes the cherished feeling we BBW/SSBBWs view as, "Oh great. Yet another conflicted guy who doesn't give a shit obout us one way or the other looking for compassion." You get to go sign off and put your arm around your skinny girlfriend and not feel a goddamned thing here but we're stuck grappling with what you dumped out on us. You know what Tres? There aren't a high abundence of men out there who say, "Hey, she's fat as a fucking cow and I'm turned on by thin women but I married her anyway and the sex is awesome!" No matter how wonderful we are no guy who prefers thin women is going to enter into a committed relationship with us for 19 years. Then the ones who do find us atractive merely ogle from a distance trading pictures on the net and storing up enough juice to shag their skinny wife and roll over slobbering about how misunderstood they are. And on top of all that when you don't get the warm response you're looking for you get to smugly mutter, "hypocrite," over your shoulder as you melt away back into your fucking ambivalence and leave us shrill harpies behind. Must be nice.







tres huevos said:


> Um, right... it's one or the other. Problem or not. Good and evil. With us or against us. Good FAs and scumbags.
> 
> Nor to post 27 times within if you're actually getting nothing out of them.



Yeah it really is that simple.......you see fat people as human beings with the same entitlements, thoughts, opinions as yourself....or you see us "differently". That differently part....it hurts people....badly. Treat others like you want to be treated...follow the golden rule. Being a good human being...it's not rocket science. 



Haunted said:


> I'm not attacking here.
> 
> But it seems what the ladies here are trying to say is They don't appreciate you claiming to be a flag waving fa stating that you love the fat girls while you walk down the street with your thin wife.
> 
> ...



I don't think any guy that sees fat women as a fetish instead of a preference is truly an FA......

He's some guy that likes women of varying sizes....but thinks the fat ones are actually a fetish while the smaller ones are "normal" to like. 

No need for the dilemma about being closeted...he isn't even an FA. 



elle camino said:


> wait, maybe i missed this, but why are you labeling yourself as an FA in the first place? like why even bother? seems like you're saying you like girls who are fat as well as girls who aren't, sooooo....the shoe doesn't exactly fit. that's probably why you're having such a shitty time wearing it.



Werd Lady....exacto

Except he isn't okay with the liking fat girls, too, part methinks. 



Santaclear said:


> Let's just say that this is a "boys will be boys" thread then.



My thoughts exactly when I read the excuses......



Ernest Nagel said:


> Or maybe it's a "boys would be idiots to ever go near these kinds of conversations in the first place" thread :doh:? *Let's face it, based on numerous statements throughout Dims if you're an admitted FA who is with or trying to be with a BBW you're automatically suspect as some fetishist, feeder perv.* If you're a professed FA who's in relationship with a smaller girl you're a hypocritical, closeted coward. If you're a non-FA who's not interested in bigger girls at all you're just too superficial to care about anything other than looks and societal approval, a sexist dimbulb. Lastly, if you're a non-FA who dates or is with a BBW it's probably because you think she's easy or won't cheat on you.
> 
> I'm being facetious of course but not when I say I can see why some guys just lurk here. Not all men are jerks all the time just like not all BBW are PPW (Panties Pre-Wadded). Sure, you can find abundant anecdotal evidence for both, if that's what you want, but why not give one another the benefit of a doubt? Sorry, I thought I was finished here but I had to get that off my chest. Expectations really are just larval reality. Why not be a little kinder and more generous with them, y'know? :bow:



He called his preference, this site and some of the people in it a fetish himself. No BBW labeled him that......


PEOPLE IN GENERAL can come with wadded panties....not just BBWs. Going back to that "different" thing again, I think......



olwen said:


> Haunted it also helps to say exactly what you mean....having a discussion in a public forum also means you will get opinions that are completely opposite to what you were expecting to hear. Such is life.



I suspect he just wanted atonement/support. Anyone that questions motives as being wrong/untrue/impure have to be haters.........cause you know.....he's automatically a good guy amongst the fetish folks. 



Santaclear said:


> It's that the "closeted" thing doesn't seem kind or generous to me, Ernest, at all.



Bingo....why is this so hard for some to get?



Santaclear said:


> Gayness is a different thing entirely, Ernest, I really don't think trying to draw a parallel between closeted gayness and closeted FAs is that productive. The closeted FAs usually whine up a storm. Other than the fact they're potential paysite customers I don't see much reason it should be tolerated.
> 
> A "space for closeteers to better consider their options" is fine with me. But considering women get manipulated and hurt by these jerks all the time I just can't get with the coddling that much.



Thank you....once again...what should be obvious to all. 



LalaCity said:


> _*BBW fairy taps you on your head with her magic wand*_





tres huevos said:


> Tap me somewhere else and we've got something going.



I won't tell you where that wand would go if I was your fairy.......


----------



## MisticalMisty (Feb 21, 2009)

Sorry Tres..you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You should have been more self aware when you were 18 and knew that you wanted a fat chick and gone for that instead of following your heart. Yep, every 18 year old knows exactly what they want etc...who they are..etc.

Oh..and I want to begrudge you 19 years of happiness..because the moment you realized you were into fat girls..you should have dumped your girl and left her broken hearted to pursue your dream of being with a fatty.

Oh..and if your fat girl got sick and lost weight or decided to lose weight on her own, then by God you should have dumped her too..because we all know the only thing that matters is your attraction to fat. God FORBID you're attracted to a woman for anything other than her size.

/end sarcasm.

Seriously, I don't get it. I DON'T GET IT. This post isn't directed at anyone in particular and by you I mean a general you.

You can't have it both ways. You can't yell at the top of your lungs that you want a man that wants you because of who you are and not what you look like and then BEGRUDGE a man that followed his heart instead of his dick into a relationship. SHEESH

How many people have partners they are completely and totally attracted to who are THE EXACT opposite of someone famous or someone they see on the street that gets their motor running? When did attraction become so black and white?

Between this thread and that damn closeted fa's thread I am about to lose my fucking mind. 

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS...FOR SERIOUS REAL


----------



## elle camino (Feb 21, 2009)

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/tilting-at-windmills.html
for serious real.


----------



## goodthings (Feb 22, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Im sorry if anything Ive said here was perceived as divisive. That was absolutely not my intent. I have a great job that I love very much. Most of my time is spent unraveling processes and patterns to see how they can be improved. I work from a fundamental engineering axiom that any problem well-stated is half solved. That doesnt mean I work only on problems though. Mostly I get to work on how to make good things even better. I try to compartmentalize but its hard not to see patterns and gnaw on them anywhere I go frequently.
> 
> Dims is a great place on a lot of levels. Compared to other boards I visit it has huge diversity, good organization and excellent moderators just to mention a few of the highlights. Given all that its hard (for me anyway) to understand why its such a shitty place for actual dialogue? Insightful, engaging give-and-take conversations seldom last more than a page or two before turning into fang and claw snarkfests. Participation is low and attrition is remarkably high. I was just kind of puzzling out loud here why that happens. Clearly its not an inquiry for general discussion and I apologize for how/where I presented it. Im discussing it privately with a few friends along with the renewed possibility of an FA board.
> 
> Please kindly pardon any disruption or offense caused by the combination of my obsessive curiosity and single digit EQ.



I could not rep you, but I think you have got it exactly


----------



## D_A_Bunny (Feb 22, 2009)

Tres, I am completely and utterly not making light of what you or anyone else has posted on this thread. It's just that I am a Virgo, so by nature I tend to analyze things.

You have recently stated in one of your posts that what one your main concerns about this issue is the fact about how your long time partner feels about it and what it says about your relationship. Is it possible that since you did not say "wife" and that is what she wants, that there is a concern?

OK. so it's 3 am, let me be blunt. Could it be that she wants a ring on her finger and that is why she questions her status in your FA life? (and by extension, you question your FA life?)

And could it be that this underlying non-commitment (if indeed it is one and not just the arrangement that you have both decided upon) is what might be causing the need for such questionning?

Again, I am not trying to get into your personal life any more than this thread already has, it's just that this thought kept coming to me, and I wanted to put it out there. I apologize if this seems out of line or offensive in any way. That is not my intention.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

Interesting point. It goes to show that what you leave out can say as much as what you tell. We decided to get married about 15 years ago. We'd already been living together 3 years and it seemed like the "logical next step." Started making plans, calling places, making a list, etc. 

Thing is, we're both from pretty odd backgrounds, in different ways. We were both raised fairly unconventionally, by unconventional parents (and I'll stop there). Maybe because of this, as we were making plans, we realized how alienated we were from the process we'd started. Neither of us was raised with any religion, nor frankly much respect for government institutions or society's supposedly sacred traditions. We were doing it for other people, really. Not directly - our parents didn't give a shit either way - but to be able to say we were Man and Wife because that's what People Who Love Each Other do. We just don't live like that, and I really can't get into it more without offending people who DO respect and live by our marriage traditions.

As years went by, we talked about it again, more for convenience sake than anything else. We bought a house together, but realized such a thing can be worked out legally, same with medical consent, etc, all the stuff that becomes important as you get older and you realize what that piece of paper means. Maybe she's been going along with what I've been saying to please me, but that's not what it feels like to me, and that is DEFINITELY not the person I know. She's incredibly strong and independent. I think if she wanted a ring, she'd tell me, and I'd give it to her.



D_A_Bunny said:


> Tres, I am completely and utterly not making light of what you or anyone else has posted on this thread. It's just that I am a Virgo, so by nature I tend to analyze things.
> 
> You have recently stated in one of your posts that what one your main concerns about this issue is the fact about how your long time partner feels about it and what it says about your relationship. Is it possible that since you did not say "wife" and that is what she wants, that there is a concern?
> 
> ...


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> This site is not just about FAs...this site is about MANY PEOPLE. Real People.
> Some of those people have fetishes....some do not. ALL ARE PEOPLE THOUGH.
> 
> Hope I made myself clear....and that this helps you to understand some anger/resentment you might feel from your "fetishes" from time to time.
> ...



You are going to be fetishized if you (general you; not "you") pose nude or tell secrets or whatever for strangers' enjoyment on a like this. You just are. Dimensions covers a massive amount of ground - support group, social network, advice, many facets of discussion, and yes, place for men to get their jollies looking and fantasizing about women they don't particularly want to respect for their finer interior qualities. They just want to think about these womens bodies and forget life for 45 seconds or so. 

"Fetish" has been misused around here, and in general society. I don't see the word - in any of it's meanings, dictionary or popular - as being inherently evil or dehumanizing. I think it's an outgrowth of sexuality that most people exhibit to some degree or another. If I'm a fat fetishist, sorry. Call me that instead of "FA" (which has suddenly become an honor badge for consistent behavior and right thinking). I think this is the place to talk about that, too - how one reconciles their fetish with the real women who represent it. I can't help it if that offends some people. If I want to talk about it, I will, and all I ask for is that if you're gonna attack me, it's on the merits of what's said in the post and not the 30 million fucked up FAs my post represents.

Frankly, I like the other forums in here because I like to discuss aspects of both my sexual preference/admiration/fetish - not to mention movies or chinese food - with people who understand it. No person I know well really does. 

I've gotta add that I don't think it's inconsistent to love a woman for who she is and be sexually attracted to her as an outgrowth of that love. And I'm not being naive or pollyannaish here. I realize there are cynical people who believe this is a myth, that a guy whose partner's outward, objective appearance ISN'T his ultimate end-all and be-all must be thinking about another woman while they're having sex, or that their relationship can't be sexual. I'm sure this happens, but I swear for me it's not. There would be no such thing as a long-term sexual relationship if such a thing DIDN'T exist, because when it comes to getting rocks off, a man's criteria changes from day to day, hour to hour. I guarantee there are men on the paysite board right now, as you read this, with spouses who are just as big and beautiful as the women they're, um, fantasizing over. Explain them.

Yes, I find many sizes desirable, but I like fat women primarily, and to be brutally honest if I could put 100 pounds on my partner I would in a second for my own pleasure. YET, this doesn't mean I don't find her attractive in a base, sexual way. I can't explain it, I just know it's true because that's how I feel.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

I don't know your husband, but I would say he's unusual if he doesn't have some sexual outlet beyond you. I have to say I'M surprised by how many women I meet who think their spouse doesn't/shouldn't have a stash, or an occasional internet session that doesn't involved ESPN.com or the Onion. I can't explain why my SO is so cool with it. I really can't. I try to be discreet with it out of respect, and maybe she suspects for someone like me a long leash is a good way to keep me around because she likes the other aspects of me and our relationship so much.

My Dimensions involvement, such as writing this message, right now, is a different thing. I admit that feels like cheating but it's something I need to do and something I don't want to share with her. Selfish, wrong, bad, yes, I agree. I try to make it up in other ways, and I'm most likely kidding myself.



TraciJo67 said:


> The only frame of reference I have is my own, and I will say this: I'd feel terribly insecure and upset if my husband was visiting Dims and perusing the paysite/BBW porn sites. I am not the jealous type, and I'm secure in the knowledge that my husband isn't the cheating type. For me, it would be more about knowing that he has a hard-wired preference for a body type that isn't mine. I'd be wondering all the time, how can he be with me ... and what is he getting out of our relationship, when clearly he fantasizes about being with women who are much larger than I am? I am curious, how your S.O. reconciles this knowledge.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I don't know your husband, but I would say he's unusual if he doesn't have some sexual outlet beyond you. I have to say I'M surprised by how many women I meet who think their spouse doesn't/shouldn't have a stash, or an occasional internet session that doesn't involved ESPN.com or the Onion. I can't explain why my SO is so cool with it. I really can't. I try to be discreet with it out of respect, and maybe she suspects for someone like me a long leash is a good way to keep me around because she likes the other aspects of me and our relationship so much.
> 
> My Dimensions involvement, such as writing this message, right now, is a different thing. I admit that feels like cheating but it's something I need to do and something I don't want to share with her. Selfish, wrong, bad, yes, I agree. I try to make it up in other ways, and I'm most likely kidding myself.



I think sexuality is much more fluid than what we give it credit for. Personally if I'm going to look at pr0n I'm in it mostly for the sexual act itself rather than the body types involved. I prefer to look at the standard skinny silicon enhanced version simply because the act can be seen much better. When I'm turned on, I don't want to have sex with the people in the video/picture. I want to have sex with my boyfriend and most likely neither of us look anything like the people in the image. In general it doesn't matter much what my boyfriend looks like. I have no preference really but I do find I have a visceral response to big men with wide shoulders, especially chubby or fat men. It's kind of a carnal eye candy thing but it is not a necessity for me to love someone or live happily ever after.

Ok, I know how all of this works out but I can see how all of this might be confusing and maybe even off putting to a significant other who isn't tall, fat or buffed up like the men in the pr0n videos. There would be 0 need for him to be concerned, yet if the roles were switched it might be a little disconcerting for me knowing he has eyes for some body type other than mine. It would play out as a double standard considering I have my own fantasy ideals that I don't' feel the least bit conflicted about. My true loyalties and affections are with real people and not images. I try to remember that as it applies to a significant other that I might be seeing but strangely enough it's not that easy.


----------



## Haunted (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> You are going to be fetishized if you (general you; not "you") pose nude or tell secrets or whatever for strangers' enjoyment on a like this. You just are. Dimensions covers a massive amount of ground - support group, social network, advice, many facets of discussion, and yes, place for men to get their jollies looking and fantasizing about women they don't particularly want to respect for their finer interior qualities. They just want to think about these womens bodies and forget life for 45 seconds or so.
> 
> "Fetish" has been misused around here, and in general society. I don't see the word - in any of it's meanings, dictionary or popular - as being inherently evil or dehumanizing. I think it's an outgrowth of sexuality that most people exhibit to some degree or another. If I'm a fat fetishist, sorry. Call me that instead of "FA" (which has suddenly become an honor badge for consistent behavior and right thinking). I think this is the place to talk about that, too - how one reconciles their fetish with the real women who represent it. I can't help it if that offends some people. If I want to talk about it, I will, and all I ask for is that if you're gonna attack me, it's on the merits of what's said in the post and not the 30 million fucked up FAs my post represents.
> 
> ...



I may be just repeating myself but this got me thinking about why i sometimes feel guilty about "fetishizing" or "objectifying" my GF. Bottom line i love her and i love her fat, her body turns me on. On some level i feel wrong for this, Probably because i respect her more than i can describe, and it's been drilled into my head that objectifying is wrong.... Is it really so wrong to be so completely involved with one person that you not only connect deeply on an emotional level, but connect completely physically also? 

This isn't a case for loving her because of or in spite of her fat either. Sure i was first attracted to her because of her body, But i fell in love with the woman inside that body. 

Maybe my case is different, She was a "paysite Gal" when i met her! i tell her all the time that i Fell for Kalicurves But i fell in love with Misty. 

It's a wonderful thing to be so completely in love and involved with someone that gets you, i don't feel like i have to hide any of my quirks or preferences or fetishes. i honestly have little to 0 need for porn. (and no it isn't because she was a paysite girl although it helps a little LOL) But seriously we hide nothing from each other we speak our minds about anything and having both come out of one sided relationships, we have made a conscious effort to be 150% honest with each other, no bullshit, no secrets!


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> You are going to be fetishized if you (general you; not "you") pose nude or tell secrets or whatever for strangers' enjoyment on a like this. You just are. Dimensions covers a massive amount of ground - support group, social network, advice, many facets of discussion, and yes, place for men to get their jollies looking and fantasizing about women they don't particularly want to respect for their finer interior qualities. They just want to think about these womens bodies and forget life for 45 seconds or so.



I am aware of that part of Dimensions. It doesn't bother me over all mainly because of the OTHER ASPECTS of Dims that you mentioned. And it goes back to my original point of "Why would you call this a fetish/porn site when there is so much more to it?". 
You do interact here often...often enough for me to remember you as a regular poster and not some random guy ID that has about 300 posts in three years and I blow off as one of those "looker" guys that only participates when he is horny. You do contribute more here than looking at eye candy so your description surprised me. I don't know.....IMO calling it a fetish site serves to debase it in an unfair way....especially when YOU came here and shared some of your very private thoughts/feelings, too. I wouldn't share so much of myself if I viewed it as a fetish/porn site myself. Just how I categorize things, I suppose. 



tres huevos said:


> "Fetish" has been misused around here, and in general society. I don't see the word - in any of it's meanings, dictionary or popular - as being inherently evil or dehumanizing. I think it's an outgrowth of sexuality that most people exhibit to some degree or another. If I'm a fat fetishist, sorry. Call me that instead of "FA" (which has suddenly become an honor badge for consistent behavior and right thinking). I think this is the place to talk about that, too - how one reconciles their fetish with the real women who represent it. I can't help it if that offends some people. If I want to talk about it, I will, and all I ask for is that if you're gonna attack me, it's on the merits of what's said in the post and not the 30 million fucked up FAs my post represents.



If you see yourself as a fetishist, I won't argue. I don't know you. However, I do not believe that all the people that participate here are fetishists. Some simply have a sexual preference for larger people. Some, like myself, like people of varying sizes. Some are larger people that prefer smaller bodies sexually. Others are outright straight up about their fetishes/desires. I like the mix myself.....even if I don't always like all the posts.Not all people here are fetishists- nor is it fair to refer to anyone as a fetish just because you have one. It really is dehumanizing even if you struggle to see them as something more. Just looks like you are leaving out a large portion of what this site does to label it as a fetish site...even if that is why you might come here yourself. I don't come here for a fetish...I don't have one.....and I'm here a LOT 

Side note: I didn't "attack" you to disagree with you. I might have been put out with your description, but I think I still maintained a politeness and didn't call you any debasing names. Yeah it's hard when you post and many people disagree with you.....but it's not all meant as an "attack" to disagree. 



tres huevos said:


> Frankly, I like the other forums in here because I like to discuss aspects of both my sexual preference/admiration/fetish - not to mention movies or chinese food - with people who understand it. No person I know well really does.



Yes I like the mix, too 
Personally, I like it that it's an "adult only" site. Still doesn't mean I view it the same as a "porn site". It's just adults that discuss many things...including their sexuality, to me. 



tres huevos said:


> I've gotta add that *I don't think it's inconsistent to love a woman for who she is and be sexually attracted to her as an outgrowth of that love*. And I'm not being naive or pollyannaish here. I realize there are cynical people who believe this is a myth, that a guy whose partner's outward, objective appearance ISN'T his ultimate end-all and be-all must be thinking about another woman while they're having sex, or that their relationship can't be sexual. I'm sure this happens, but I swear for me it's not. There would be no such thing as a long-term sexual relationship if such a thing DIDN'T exist, because when it comes to getting rocks off, a man's criteria changes from day to day, hour to hour. I guarantee there are men on the paysite board right now, as you read this, with spouses who are just as big and beautiful as the women they're, um, fantasizing over. Explain them.



You know....I agree with you totally there. As I said in my original post to you, I really don't care if you have a thin partner. I have had thin partners...and it doesn't mean I cannot find a thicker guy attractive,too. I just don't call myself "FFA" around these parts because the definitions have been haggled over so much....I like varying sizes. I have also been with guys that didn't knock me over on first sight with their bodies/physical appearance...but I still enjoyed sex with them very much. 
Actually, I'm usually one of the first people that would argue that physical appearance is NOT a good reason to be with a spouse...because looks fade and change so much over the long term. Peoples weights do vary....and it's not a reason to end a good relationship. Just to let you know, I don't think you "Did Anything Wrong" to be with a woman that is thin if you truly love her.....*shrugs*



tres huevos said:


> Yes, I find many sizes desirable, but I like fat women primarily, and to be brutally honest if I could put 100 pounds on my partner I would in a second for my own pleasure. YET, this doesn't mean I don't find her attractive in a base, sexual way. I can't explain it, I just know it's true because that's how I feel.



Heh, I'm different in that regard.....I usually just take them as they come.

Thank you for your responses. :bow:


----------



## exile in thighville (Feb 22, 2009)

i find the best way to be a closeted fa is to keep the immobile woman in your basement and tell people oh no nothing down there but old ping pong tables

with a long slow wink


----------



## olwen (Feb 22, 2009)

This thread just has me thoroughly confused.....Tres, you've been hanging around this site long enough to know exactly what an FA is and what one isn't. 3-4 years seems like enough time for you to have examined this thing in excrutiating detail so why is all this only coming up now, especially if being attracted to fat women is something you've known about yourself for over a decade now?....I don't understand why you haven't figured out all this stuff by now. I know we all develop and grow at different rates, but, I feel like you've have enough information and opinions at your disposal long enough to have a well informed opinion, and you have the benefit of the wisdom age brings....I'm not trying to attack you either here, I'm just genuinely confused and these are the questions that have been running thru my head, and I'm curious to know what exactly it is you have already figured out at this point since you brought it all up.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Side note: I didn't "attack" you to disagree with you. I might have been put out with your description, but I think I still maintained a politeness and didn't call you any debasing names. Yeah it's hard when you post and many people disagree with you.....but it's not all meant as an "attack" to disagree.



I didn't mean you - sorry I didn't make that clear. I meant from other posters.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

I've been coming to this site since it started and I've known I was attracted to fat women since birth, so yeah, I suppose I should have it figured out. What can I say? Situations come up that make me change perspective. One of those recently did. I'm not the same person I was 20 years ago, 10 years ago, a year ago.



olwen said:


> This thread just has me thoroughly confused.....Tres, you've been hanging around this site long enough to know exactly what an FA is and what one isn't. 3-4 years seems like enough time for you to have examined this thing in excrutiating detail so why is all this only coming up now, especially if being attracted to fat women is something you've known about yourself for over a decade now?....I don't understand why you haven't figured out all this stuff by now. I know we all develop and grow at different rates, but, I feel like you've have enough information and opinions at your disposal long enough to have a well informed opinion, and you have the benefit of the wisdom age brings....I'm not trying to attack you either here, I'm just genuinely confused and these are the questions that have been running thru my head, and I'm curious to know what exactly it is you have already figured out at this point since you brought it all up.


----------



## olwen (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I've been coming to this site since it started and I've known I was attracted to fat women since birth, so yeah, I suppose I should have it figured out. What can I say? Situations come up that make me change perspective. One of those recently did. I'm not the same person I was 20 years ago, 10 years ago, a year ago.



....okay...I'm still confused, but I suppose this is one of those it is what it is kind of things. ::shrugs:: FWIW, I can only imagine that whatever it is you're probably making it harder than it has to be.


----------



## Santaclear (Feb 22, 2009)

olwen said:


> ....okay...I'm still confused, but I suppose this is one of those it is what it is kind of things. ::shrugs:: FWIW, I can only imagine that whatever it is you're probably making it harder than it has to be.



The thread has been a very smooth ride.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

olwen said:


> FWIW, I can only imagine that whatever it is you're probably making it harder than it has to be.



You're right - I'm really good at that.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 22, 2009)

Tres, thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't think that I explained myself very well, though. I know that my husband has other outlets, and I do believe that it is normal and healthy. I know him well, and I understand that he finds a variety of shapes/sizes appealing. It would be a problem for me if I believed that he is fixated on one particular body type ... that doesn't happen to be mine. I would feel very insecure about that -- not to say that I find anything wrong with myself, more that I love him, want to please him, and would always be wondering if I really was. 

I will admit, I was puzzled by your first few posts, mostly because I wondered, since you are in a committed relationship with a woman whom you obviously love, why you are struggling with preference issues. I think that I misunderstood some of what you were trying to say -- it became more clear to me as you elaborated. But I am still wondering about the point of your initial post. As I said before, the only frame of reference that I can operate from is my own, and to me, the issue of preference isn't even on my radar screen. So I assumed that what you were really saying (even if you weren't saying it in these terms) is that although you love your partner, you feel that something is missing. 

That, I can understand, and I don't think that anyone has the right to judge your relationship with your SO. But I viewed the angry reaction as having nothing to do with that ... it was more, I think, the feeling that yet another guy with a thin partner is secretly fetishizing the fatties. That feels demeaning, specifically to the women who post to this site. And obviously, that is where some of the rancor came in.

I have appreciated your later posts -- your honesty, willingness to acknowledge other viewpoints, and, despite what became a rather chilly atmosphere, your tenacity. 









tres huevos said:


> I don't know your husband, but I would say he's unusual if he doesn't have some sexual outlet beyond you. I have to say I'M surprised by how many women I meet who think their spouse doesn't/shouldn't have a stash, or an occasional internet session that doesn't involved ESPN.com or the Onion. I can't explain why my SO is so cool with it. I really can't. I try to be discreet with it out of respect, and maybe she suspects for someone like me a long leash is a good way to keep me around because she likes the other aspects of me and our relationship so much.
> 
> My Dimensions involvement, such as writing this message, right now, is a different thing. I admit that feels like cheating but it's something I need to do and something I don't want to share with her. Selfish, wrong, bad, yes, I agree. I try to make it up in other ways, and I'm most likely kidding myself.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 22, 2009)

Misty, YOU are making this into something that it isn't. 

This isn't an "either/or" choice. 

And yes, we all should flat-out expect that the person we choose to be with will value us for BOTH our physical attributes AND for who we inherently are. 

Oh, yeah. I want it both ways -- in fact, I insist upon it as a condition of my relationship. 

Nobody is suggesting that Tres Huevos leave his SO. I certainly am not, nor was I. I will say this, though (related to what you wrote, not directed at Tres): NOBODY GETS A FREE PASS FOR BEING YOUNG AND UNCERTAIN. People grow up, and they mature, and if one party realizes that he/she is not getting an essential part of what they need from the relationship, then it is not doing the other party a kindness to stay. It is, in fact, painfully cruel -- to both involved. 

And again: The assumptions here haven't been about begrudging someone because he followed his heart. There were a lot of other assumptions in play here, and that wasn't one of them.




MisticalMisty said:


> Sorry Tres..you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
> 
> You should have been more self aware when you were 18 and knew that you wanted a fat chick and gone for that instead of following your heart. Yep, every 18 year old knows exactly what they want etc...who they are..etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## olwen (Feb 22, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Tres, thank you for your thoughtful response. I don't think that I explained myself very well, though. I know that my husband has other outlets, and I do believe that it is normal and healthy. I know him well, and I understand that he finds a variety of shapes/sizes appealing. It would be a problem for me if I believed that he is fixated on one particular body type ... that doesn't happen to be mine. I would feel very insecure about that -- not to say that I find anything wrong with myself, more that I love him, want to please him, and would always be wondering if I really was.
> 
> I will admit, I was puzzled by your first few posts, mostly because I wondered, since you are in a committed relationship with a woman whom you obviously love, why you are struggling with preference issues. I think that I misunderstood some of what you were trying to say -- it became more clear to me as you elaborated. But I am still wondering about the point of your initial post. As I said before, the only frame of reference that I can operate from is my own, and to me, the issue of preference isn't even on my radar screen. So I assumed that what you were really saying (even if you weren't saying it in these terms) is that although you love your partner, you feel that something is missing.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what I thought. But then all the subsequent posts seemed to jumble the actual issue and just confused me...I can't see how any of us would begrudge anybody the love they have for someone else, but if they feel like something might actually be missing, then it stands to reason that love is not enough. It's nice to think that love conquers all, but sometimes it just doesn't. I don't see that as cynicism either, but rather reality. At least it's been my reality. Such is life (I feel like I'm saying that alot lately). Anyway, it seems like the question should be - "What do I do after I realize that something might be missing?" But I'm still not sure if any of this applies to Tres' situation because I'm not sure what the situation is.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

olwen said:


> That is exactly what I thought. But then all the subsequent posts seemed to jumble the actual issue and just confused me...I can't see how any of us would begrudge anybody the love they have for someone else, but if they feel like something might actually be missing, then it stands to reason that love is not enough. It's nice to think that love conquers all, but sometimes it just doesn't. I don't see that as cynicism either, but rather reality. At least it's been my reality. Such is life (I feel like I'm saying that a lot lately). Anyway, it seems like the question should be - "What do I do after I realize that something might be missing?" But I'm still not sure if any of this applies to Tres' situation because I'm not sure what the situation is.



No one can provide everything for one person. I have friends I talk to about subjects she doesn't care/know about, activities she doesn't want to do, etc. This is more serious, personal, and shifty, I realize, but that's how I relate it. It's a part of me I don't want to and really can't share with her. 

Honestly, beyond any thrills I get from other parts of the site, I just like "hanging around" people who understand this aspect of me - being an FA for lack of a better term. She's unbelievably supportive and understanding about nearly every aspect of me, but I can't and don't expect her to understand my interest in fat women. As I explained, she has her own reasons for that beyond just jealousy or whatever. 

I understand how it offends people that I skulk around here while going back to my "thin" SO, and that I keep Dims private, but that's how I've balanced it since 1996 or whenever this site went live. As I write this I realize how bad it all sounds, but that's the truth. And I can't emphasize enough that I'm really not looking for sympathy or understanding about my personal situation. I was really just curious about how other FAs handle theirs, and how others perceive it - good or bad. I've skulked around long enough in a forum like this to understand that indeed the people I'm reading about, interacting with, etc are real behind the avatars and that the way I conduct myself outside of here has ramifications to "the cause" - understanding for all of us, FAs and fat women/men too, and suddenly it doesn't feel so comfortable to hide.

For those keeping score, that's iteration #436 of my original point.


----------



## MisticalMisty (Feb 22, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Misty, YOU are making this into something that it isn't.
> 
> This isn't an "either/or" choice.
> 
> ...



It was mentioned earlier in the thread that he shouldn't be with a thin woman if he was attracted to fat. My point was that he's happy and from what he's said..she's happy. I don't see the point of giving him a hard time for liking a fat girl and being with a thinner woman.

No one would be giving him grief if she started fat and then lost the weight.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Nobody is suggesting that Tres Huevos leave his SO. I certainly am not, nor was I. I will say this, though (related to what you wrote, not directed at Tres): NOBODY GETS A FREE PASS FOR BEING YOUNG AND UNCERTAIN. People grow up, and they mature, and if one party realizes that he/she is not getting an essential part of what they need from the relationship, then it is not doing the other party a kindness to stay. It is, in fact, painfully cruel -- to both involved.



That's an excellent point and something I've struggled with at various points. I think anyone who ever considers leaving a relationship because they've changed, or come to a hard realization about themselves, questions whether it's actually the scenario you paint, or if they just want change for itself. No one ever really knows what the answer is besides the people involved and most of the time they really don't know either. Long-term relationships can be hard and require constant maintenance and adjustment while new love just seems soooo easy. At least as I remember....


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 22, 2009)

Is the same set of conditions implied here:



MisticalMisty said:


> ... liking a fat girl and being with a thinner woman...




...as here:



> _if she started fat and then lost the weight.
> _



????


----------



## MisticalMisty (Feb 22, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Is the same set of conditions implied here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes..When he started his relationship he was obviously attracted to her. Over the course of their relationship they've fallen in love and built a life together. If she had started fat, and then for whatever reason decided to lose the weight..I'm sure he would still love her and want to be with her.

Our physical tastes change over time and they are never black and white. I have never met any person that was attracted to one specific look/size/whatever you want to call it. Even hardcore FAs have dated women at varying sizes.

I really need to go back through the thread and find the post that stated that he should be with a fat girl if he's an FA.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 22, 2009)

MisticalMisty said:


> Yes..When he started his relationship he was obviously attracted to her. Over the course of their relationship they've fallen in love and built a life together. If she had started fat, and then for whatever reason decided to lose the weight..I'm sure he would still love her and want to be with her.
> 
> Our physical tastes change over time and they are never black and white. I have never met any person that was attracted to one specific look/size/whatever you want to call it. Even hardcore FAs have dated women at varying sizes.
> 
> I really need to go back through the thread and find the post that stated that he should be with a fat girl if he's an FA.



Honey, if it were as simple as "follow your heart" here, I doubt this thread would have been started at all. Besides kind of confusing who's said what here, you seem to be suggesting that in general an attraction to fat bodies need not factor in at higher than zero influence in a person's life choices as long as we're all following our hearts, where I think it's been made clear that this is not the case here at all. The issue, in fact, seems to be that the attraction to fat _does_ present a practical, moral, and psychological conflict to some extent.

No one has been berating anyone for what you seem to think he's being berated for. I'd look at why you continue to try to make this into a "please don't bash the FAs" issue instead of focusing on the fact that some kind of productive (if difficult) conversation has been going on.


----------



## altered states (Feb 22, 2009)

I swear I'm not just logrolling with Misty here. I think I know what she's saying, and I've been tempted to bring this point up from the beginning. Basically, there's a contradiction with some women (of any size) who are caught between wanting to be wanted for their bodies but not wanting to be wanted _just_ for their bodies, and that's a tough concept to reconcile. I follow my heart but still want others' bodies, which admittedly is a tough one to reconcile or defend. It doesn't make me unique though, or even a minority.



Fascinita said:


> Honey, if it were as simple as "follow your heart" here, I doubt this thread would have been started at all. Besides kind of confusing who's said what here, you seem to be suggesting that in general an attraction to fat bodies need not factor in at higher than zero influence in a person's life choices as long as we're all following our hearts, where I think it's been made clear that this is not the case here at all. The issue, in fact, seems to be that the attraction to fat _does_ present a practical, moral, and psychological conflict to some extent.
> 
> No one has been berating anyone for what you seem to think he's being berated for. I'd look at why you continue to try to make this into a "please don't bash the FAs" issue instead of focusing on the fact that some kind of productive (if difficult) conversation has been going on.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Basically, there's a contradiction with some women (of any size) who are caught between wanting to be wanted for their bodies but not wanting to be wanted _just_ for their bodies, and that's a tough concept to reconcile.



You could say that I believe it's possible to be wanted as a whole person, yes. And I don't think there's any contradiction at all in wanting to be wanted as I am, _all_ of it. That's kind of the point of fighting "the closet," at least for me. Why should I be content with being liked for my body in secret, while other women receive the benefits of full love out in the open? I won't be fragmented that way. I won't have that kind of fragmentation imposed on me. 

For the record, I've known many men capable of wanting women both for their bodies and for the rest of it, i.e., capable of reconciling what turns them on with who they choose to love. Again, it doesn't have to be either/or.

I understand that this is ideal and that it doesn't speak to the reality in many people's lives. I think as an ideal, we could do worse than to aspire to wholeness. And it *is* purely up to us as individuals, it seems to me.


----------



## olwen (Feb 22, 2009)

MisticalMisty said:


> Yes..When he started his relationship he was obviously attracted to her. Over the course of their relationship they've fallen in love and built a life together. If she had started fat, and then for whatever reason decided to lose the weight..I'm sure he would still love her and want to be with her.
> 
> *Our physical tastes change over time and they are never black and white. I have never met any person that was attracted to one specific look/size/whatever you want to call it. Even hardcore FAs have dated women at varying sizes.*
> 
> I really need to go back through the thread and find the post that stated that he should be with a fat girl if he's an FA.



FWIW, I *have* met more men who have very specific tastes than I have men with a wide ranges of tastes. They would either never ever in a million years date a woman who was bigger than a socially acceptable level of thick, Or they wouldn't dream of dating a woman who weighed less than 250lbs, or they would never never ever ever date outside their race. In fact I've only ever met one guy in real life who dated all sizes and races of women from 100lbs to 400+lbs, black, white, asian...he just loved women. I wish there were more guys like him.


----------



## olwen (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I swear I'm not just logrolling with Misty here. I think I know what she's saying, and I've been tempted to bring this point up from the beginning. Basically, there's a contradiction with some women (of any size) who are caught between wanting to be wanted for their bodies but not wanting to be wanted _just_ for their bodies, and that's a tough concept to reconcile. I follow my heart but still want others' bodies, which admittedly is a tough one to reconcile or defend. It doesn't make me unique though, or even a minority.



Wait, I don't see how this is something to reconcile. I want to be wanted for my body AND my brain. How is that at odds with each other? No woman wants to be wanted just for their bodies or just their brains - even if they use their bodies or their brains for financial gain. At some point they will seek out someone who wants all of them.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Feb 22, 2009)

tres, I've been with my husband for 21 years, married for 15 of them. We definitely go through cycles in our relationship; I think only the very fortunate few remain passionately in love as the years go by and we get to know more about each other than we ever really wanted to know  But in a core part of my being I also know this: He is the ONE for me. No matter how bad things get during the down cycles, there is never a question in my mind that I love him deeply and I don't want to be without him. As we're advancing into our 40's, we have to make a real effort to keep the passion alive. For the first decade, especially the first few years, it required no effort at all. We were nuts about each other. Now, we work at it. I'm thinking, 19 years into your relationship, you probably know what I'm talking about  

I guess my point is, though, that for me, there never has been any doubt. He's the one. 

I'd be really interested in knowing if this is/has remained true for others who are in long-term committed relationships. I have to admit, I've always assumed that my perspective is the norm. I've never had a reason to question it.



tres huevos said:


> That's an excellent point and something I've struggled with at various points. I think anyone who ever considers leaving a relationship because they've changed, or come to a hard realization about themselves, questions whether it's actually the scenario you paint, or if they just want change for itself. No one ever really knows what the answer is besides the people involved and most of the time they really don't know either. Long-term relationships can be hard and require constant maintenance and adjustment while new love just seems soooo easy. At least as I remember....


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I swear I'm not just logrolling with Misty here. I think I know what she's saying, and I've been tempted to bring this point up from the beginning. *Basically, there's a contradiction with some women (of any size) who are caught between wanting to be wanted for their bodies but not wanting to be wanted just for their bodies, and that's a tough concept to reconcile.* I follow my heart but still want others' bodies, which admittedly is a tough one to reconcile or defend. It doesn't make me unique though, or even a minority.



First thing I thought is: is that any different than thin women? Fudge...aren't they objectified ever MORE than us? 

But Olwen beat me to it:



olwen said:


> Wait, I don't see how this is something to reconcile. I want to be wanted for my body AND my brain. How is that at odds with each other? * No woman wants to be wanted just for their bodies or just their brains *- even if they use their bodies or their brains for financial gain. At some point they will seek out someone who wants all of them.



But then Fascinita kind of laid out the REAL difference between fat and thin women when it comes to the menfolk:



> You could say that I believe it's possible to be wanted as a whole person, yes. And I don't think there's any contradiction at all in wanting to be wanted as I am, all of it.* That's kind of the point of fighting "the closet," at least for me. Why should I be content with being liked for my body in secret, while other women receive the benefits of full love out in the open? I won't be fragmented that way. I won't have that kind of fragmentation imposed on me.*






olwen said:


> FWIW, I *have* met more men who have very specific tastes than I have men with a wide ranges of tastes. They would either never ever in a million years date a woman who was bigger than a socially acceptable level of thick, Or they wouldn't dream of dating a woman who weighed less than 250lbs, or they would never never ever ever date outside their race. * In fact I've only ever met one guy in real life who dated all sizes and races of women from 100lbs to 400+lbs, black, white, asian...he just loved women. I wish there were more guys like him.*



You just described my ex-husband......I found him fascinating for this ability. Sure some might say he "isn't picky" but I think it goes much deeper than that. He doesn't live inside a "box" that limits his thought processes/desires....and it made me look deeper at exactly what he was looking for in a woman since he easily got past the physical.....in a world where so many men seem to have such problems getting beyond the physical. He saw more women as "beautiful", in all their differences, than he did unattractive. Yeah, guys like him are not the norm, for sure.


----------



## MisticalMisty (Feb 22, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Honey, if it were as simple as "follow your heart" here, I doubt this thread would have been started at all. Besides kind of confusing who's said what here, you seem to be suggesting that in general an attraction to fat bodies need not factor in at higher than zero influence in a person's life choices as long as we're all following our hearts, where I think it's been made clear that this is not the case here at all. The issue, in fact, seems to be that the attraction to fat _does_ present a practical, moral, and psychological conflict to some extent.
> 
> No one has been berating anyone for what you seem to think he's being berated for. I'd look at why you continue to try to make this into a "please don't bash the FAs" issue instead of focusing on the fact that some kind of productive (if difficult) conversation has been going on.



never mind.


----------



## KHayes666 (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I have a friend who's been involved with a model for a long time - gorgeous, 5'11" and 110 at most. We get along really, really well (better than she and her boyfriend, most of the time) and I swear it's because she has zero sexual power over me. I suspect I'm probably the only straight man in her life who treats her like a normal person.



I feel you on that one. Some of my friends I've made were from me not having attraction to them, just treating them like normal human beings. That's all it takes sometimes, the ability to understand, hold a conversation and to have similar interests....looks aren't as important.]

As for the rest of this thread, sorry I'm late but I'm steering clear of the drama.


----------



## James (Feb 22, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I have a friend who's been involved with a model for a long time - gorgeous, 5'11" and 110 at most. We get along really, really well (better than she and her boyfriend, most of the time) and I swear it's because she has zero sexual power over me. I suspect I'm probably the only straight man in her life who treats her like a normal person.



Amongst the FAs I know this seems like a super-common scenario. I've been dubbed "James my not gay, gay friend" by my waif-like 6ft, stupidly pretty friend who pretty much has the effect of turning most guys into tongue-hanging mushy-minded fools. She might as well be a guy to me (I mean that in the best possible way). Some women definitely seem to place a lot of value on the honesty that comes from male friendships with no sexual component to them... I certainly think there are great aspects to having female friends who fit into the 'asexual' category too... as long as nobody is getting led on or their heads messed with then I reckon such friendships can be refreshingly expectation and tension free...


----------



## bdog (Feb 22, 2009)

good god. some friends give you some ribbing. someone sends you a picture. someone thinks you're weird. and what a fuss you make in your head. quit being such a pussy... stop giving an f_ about what other people think and live your life. obviously don't be an alpha male self-centered douchebag, but come on, a step in that direction wouldn't be a bad thing for you, or those around you.


----------



## altered states (Feb 23, 2009)

bdog said:


> good god. some friends give you some ribbing. someone sends you a picture. someone thinks you're weird. and what a fuss you make in your head. quit being such a pussy... stop giving an f_ about what other people think and live your life. obviously don't be an alpha male self-centered douchebag, but come on, a step in that direction wouldn't be a bad thing for you, or those around you.



You know, you'd think in a thread this long and involved there wouldn't be much ground left to cover, but then....


----------



## altered states (Feb 23, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> You just described my ex-husband......I found him fascinating for this ability. Sure some might say he "isn't picky" but I think it goes much deeper than that. He doesn't live inside a "box" that limits his thought processes/desires....and it made me look deeper at exactly what he was looking for in a woman since he easily got past the physical.....in a world where so many men seem to have such problems getting beyond the physical. He saw more women as "beautiful", in all their differences, than he did unattractive. Yeah, guys like him are not the norm, for sure.



I think more guys are capable of this than you know. It's social pressure that stops them from acknowledging it, and acting on it.


----------



## olwen (Feb 23, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> I think more guys are capable of this than you know. It's social pressure that stops them from acknowledging it, and acting on it.



That it shouldn't stop them is the point Tres.


----------



## altered states (Feb 23, 2009)

olwen said:


> That it shouldn't stop them is the point Tres.



Yes - absolutely. But I think fewer guys are hardwired for a certain type than is generally given credit.


----------



## Jon Blaze (Feb 23, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Yes - absolutely. But I think fewer guys are hardwired for a certain type than is generally given credit.



I concur. :bow:


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 23, 2009)

Lol, I tend to think the menfolk are more picky in an overpopulated world.....where some of that might dissolve in smaller world with less choices


----------



## olwen (Feb 23, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Yes - absolutely. But I think fewer guys are hardwired for a certain type than is generally given credit.



I don't believe that. I just don't. How many guys do you know who would date any race, any size, any age, any shape of woman? I've only known one. Even if you knew a guy who liked a wide size range, what about race, what about class? I know a lot of guys who'd never date outside their race or their class. Truly open minded individuals are hard to come by......If it's social pressure that is stopping people from enjoying their lives rather than personal choices, then there's something wrong somewhere....



I'm starting to get tho that a lot of people care about that pressure. I've always been outside the norm not just in terms of my size either. I've been the freaky brainy inquisitive child that made me stand out, the black girl who likes metal, the only black girl in the room, or one out of five - literally, the black girl who isn't black enough for other blacks, the girl who's been brutally honest (cause to not be honest seemed silly, but I learned that how you say what you say counts for more than what you say) and alienated people. I've been the girl who likes the kind of pop culture that some of my friends hate and made fun of me for but I never stopped liking that stuff, the girl who's done some stuff sexually that other people don't understand and will never understand - stuff that is now firmly part of me. I've brought home white boys and had my family freak and thru all of that mierda I just didn't give a flying fuck what other people thought, but the people who don't understand certain aspects of me still love me and still enjoy my company, and I know the thing that some people respect about me is that fact that I don't give a flying fuck because they've told me so. 

So doing the not socially acceptable thing is something I'm quite familiar with. That's just always been the way my life has been....I do what I like and fuck who I like regardless of what other people think. I truly don't care. If I lived my life for other people (like I tried to do for my mother as a little kid thru all the dieting and eventually put a stop to when I was 14) I'd be miserable all the time. ....Doesn't mean that everything I've done is right, or that I'm perfect, but I learned from all my mistakes (believe me there have been doozies) and moved on. I truly do not understand why other people care about social pressure to the point where they suppress who they are inside, but that's the way it is I guess. Trying to understand why there is so much trepidation just makes my brow squinch. It really isn't that hard to not give into it....

...These two threads have been gnawing at me to the point where I had to talk to my therapist about it all and you know what she told me? That most people don't have a strong sense of self and that people like me are not the norm. Just made my head spin. I don't understand why that should be so....I just don't...but...if people choose to be beholden to social pressure enough to limit themselves and their happiness, all I can say at this point is - whateves. I feel like nothing I can say would change people's minds....If people choose to be with people who are not what they truly want physically or otherwise, then...it just is what it is. I'm tired of thinking about it for now.


ETA: I'm not sure all these thoughts connect in a coherent way, but that's where my brain went and I had to get it out.


----------



## Jon Blaze (Feb 23, 2009)

olwen said:


> I don't believe that. I just don't. How many guys do you know who would date any race, any size, any age, any shape of woman?



Ok. I'll admit that having all those criteria in one person is rare, but having one or several of those at one time is not uncommon in my experiences at all. Size tends to be the biggest exception, but I've seen variations a lot.

I don't think this is going as deep as it should either. I think there's a difference between having a varied admiration for something (In my case: Body types), and not having preferences (In my case: Race).


----------



## olwen (Feb 24, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> Ok. I'll admit that having all those criteria in one person is rare, but having one or several of those at one time is not uncommon in my experiences at all. Size tends to be the biggest exception, but I've seen variations a lot.
> 
> I don't think this is going as deep as it should either. I think there's a difference between having a varied admiration for something (In my case: Body types), and not having preferences (In my case: Race).



Please clarify. I just...it's late and I don't know that I can think thru what you are saying right now.


----------



## mergirl (Feb 24, 2009)

olwen said:


> ..... the girl who's done some stuff sexually that other people don't understand and will never understand - stuff that is now firmly part of me. .



You see, i have a friend who is a submissive. Her partners are also her mistresses. She finds this aspect of her sexuality so fundimental that she would prefer just to do sub stuff and isnt so bothered about the 'generalised' sex bit. She would NEVER tell her parents what she was into sexually even though actually it IS firmly her. It is a huge part of her life and only a choice few of her friends know about it. I guess she is a closet sub. The reason she doesnt tell people is because a lot of people wouldnt understand that side of her, she isnt ashamed of it though. If she had a Dom gf who wanted her to 'come out' as a sub to her parents/lots of her other friends she just couldnt/wouldnt do it.
I know this is different from this 'closet fa' argument in the fact that it is not a person she is deciding not to reveal but a huge part of herself. I guess it would relate to an Fa that is with fat people but doesnt proclaim it they just live it. 
The reason i was thinking about this is because i wonder if anyone is truly open about all aspects of their sexuality confidently to everyone. After reading pages and pages of these two threds and dancing little circles in my head i'm begining really not to care anymore. who is 'in' and who is 'out.. their reasons, scare stories etc. All i really care about is that fat people dont get the shit or the fall out from anyone harmful, which actually i cant do anything about anyway, as it is down to the individual to keep an eye open for people they suspect to be arseholes. In the past i had met big women and thought they seemed wary, of attention, of Fa's of me, of my intentions,, and you know what. I really understand why now. To be honest i never realised what a minefield it was. It seems a pity really because it ends up fat people being wary of Fa's..which in turn becomes cyclical and Fa's become wary of fat people because they might get the brunt of bad feelings from previous bad experiences of other Fa's. 
Anyway, sorry this thread has made you feel so bad you had to talk it over with your therapist. Hopefully, getting things aout will make you feel better and if you feel it is just making you feel bad then maby it would be best to rest for a while and let the rest do some fighting for a while. 
Actually it would be better if we all laid down our grinding axes and weapons and agreed to disagree. Unless you think this is getting anywhere? It feels to me like we are going round and round in circles with each other, soon we will have just grownd a big hole in the earth and will have to buy new shoes..

Anyway..what this thred has taught us-that we kinna already knew..but i feel we are all at least in agreement about this..
1. No people, including fat people like to be shat on.
2. The Fa's that are just out and confused about thier sexuality deserve a bit of slack, though this slack is not the fat persons responsibility:The aforementioned 'clositish Fa' should learn from Other Fa's (if they want that task) and from positive things in Dimensions etc.
3. The creepy other type of Fa, actually isnt a real Fa anyway, he/she is a predator and should be totally avoided.
4. people are good at going around in circles 
5. Some things cannot be uncircled because its impossible to find perspective in that you have not experienced.

Well thats what i have learned (been reminded of) anyway..


----------



## altered states (Feb 24, 2009)

I really do know people with a surprising range. I know others who only seem to date clones of the last person they dated. Race and class could be about social pressure, or could be just what someone is comfortable with on a personal level. It baffles me when I hear about a long-term couple from, say, different countries where they basically don't even speak the same language, yet I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Where the outside pressure runs up against the innate attraction is impossible to measure in anyone.

I've always been a misfit myself in many ways, so I totally know where you're coming from, and this post makes sense to me. 



olwen said:


> I don't believe that. I just don't. How many guys do you know who would date any race, any size, any age, any shape of woman? I've only known one. Even if you knew a guy who liked a wide size range, what about race, what about class? I know a lot of guys who'd never date outside their race or their class. Truly open minded individuals are hard to come by......If it's social pressure that is stopping people from enjoying their lives rather than personal choices, then there's something wrong somewhere....
> 
> I'm starting to get tho that a lot of people care about that pressure. I've always been outside the norm not just in terms of my size either. I've been the freaky brainy inquisitive child that made me stand out, the black girl who likes metal, the only black girl in the room, or one out of five - literally, the black girl who isn't black enough for other blacks, the girl who's been brutally honest (cause to not be honest seemed silly, but I learned that how you say what you say counts for more than what you say) and alienated people. I've been the girl who likes the kind of pop culture that some of my friends hate and made fun of me for but I never stopped liking that stuff, the girl who's done some stuff sexually that other people don't understand and will never understand - stuff that is now firmly part of me. I've brought home white boys and had my family freak and thru all of that mierda I just didn't give a flying fuck what other people thought, but the people who don't understand certain aspects of me still love me and still enjoy my company, and I know the thing that some people respect about me is that fact that I don't give a flying fuck because they've told me so.
> 
> ...


----------



## altered states (Feb 24, 2009)

The thread went into tangents I hadn't intended nor anticipated, but that's the way this place works. But, yeah, obviously very few people are totally open with their sexuality, and that makes sense. Being "intimate" isn't just being dirty - it's sharing something unique between you and another person (or two or three, as it goes).

But I do feel FAism is different from being into S/M stuff, because I'm discovering (if late in the game - sorry) there is a political/social component to it. Not sticking up for my preference if, say, my mother is railing against fat people I think is a different thing from not sticking up for S/M enthusiasts if she's calling someone with a gag in their mouth a pervert. ...Or maybe it's not? That's an obvious example, as it's about fat bashing which any human - FA or not - shouldn't tolerate. But even with all this bandwidth expended, I still don't think the line of privacy vs. honesty is as obvious as you and others make it.



mergirl said:


> You see, i have a friend who is a submissive. Her partners are also her mistresses. She finds this aspect of her sexuality so fundimental that she would prefer just to do sub stuff and isnt so bothered about the 'generalised' sex bit. She would NEVER tell her parents what she was into sexually even though actually it IS firmly her. It is a huge part of her life and only a choice few of her friends know about it. I guess she is a closet sub. The reason she doesnt tell people is because a lot of people wouldnt understand that side of her, she isnt ashamed of it though. If she had a Dom gf who wanted her to 'come out' as a sub to her parents/lots of her other friends she just couldnt/wouldnt do it.
> I know this is different from this 'closet fa' argument in the fact that it is not a person she is deciding not to reveal but a huge part of herself. I guess it would relate to an Fa that is with fat people but doesnt proclaim it they just live it.
> The reason i was thinking about this is because i wonder if anyone is truly open about all aspects of their sexuality confidently to everyone. After reading pages and pages of these two threds and dancing little circles in my head i'm begining really not to care anymore. who is 'in' and who is 'out.. their reasons, scare stories etc. All i really care about is that fat people dont get the shit or the fall out from anyone harmful, which actually i cant do anything about anyway, as it is down to the individual to keep an eye open for people they suspect to be arseholes. In the past i had met big women and thought they seemed wary, of attention, of Fa's of me, of my intentions,, and you know what. I really understand why now. To be honest i never realised what a minefield it was. It seems a pity really because it ends up fat people being wary of Fa's..which in turn becomes cyclical and Fa's become wary of fat people because they might get the brunt of bad feelings from previous bad experiences of other Fa's.
> Anyway, sorry this thread has made you feel so bad you had to talk it over with your therapist. Hopefully, getting things aout will make you feel better and if you feel it is just making you feel bad then maby it would be best to rest for a while and let the rest do some fighting for a while.
> ...


----------



## James (Feb 24, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Y
> 1. No people, including fat people like to be shat on.
> 2. The Fa's that are just out and confused about thier sexuality deserve a bit of slack, though this slack is not the fat persons responsibility:The aforementioned 'clositish Fa' should learn from Other Fa's (if they want that task) and from positive things in Dimensions etc.
> 3. The creepy other type of Fa, actually isnt a real Fa anyway, he/she is a predator and should be totally avoided.
> ...



I think you've summarized the issue very succinctly! I think points 4 and 5 are particularly pertinent. Its always worth asking oneself if you've walked a mile in another's shoes before you reach a full judgement on their circumstance...


----------



## mergirl (Feb 24, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> But even with all this bandwidth expended, I still don't think the line of privacy vs. honesty is as obvious as you and others make it.



I think it is.
Do you like fat chicks?
yes!
It really is that simple..why hum and haw about it?

How can you be 'private' about dating a fat person? Unless you hide them away people will know tres!
I dont really get your point to begin with anyway. You are bi-fatual, you have a skinny partner..The end.
Though, the thing is, while you might be ambivalant about 'comming out/staying in' You certainly arn't ambivalent about being an Fa, lest you wouldnt belong to a community of Fa's and Fat people..
Do you feel that there is something missing in your relationship that you get from here? Is your Fa side so prominant to you that you need to discuss it with others? 
Does your line between privicy and honesty have anything to do with the fact that you dont get to express a side of your sexuality you would like to?


----------



## olwen (Feb 24, 2009)

mergirl said:


> You see, i have a friend who is a submissive. Her partners are also her mistresses. She finds this aspect of her sexuality so fundimental that she would prefer just to do sub stuff and isnt so bothered about the 'generalised' sex bit. She would NEVER tell her parents what she was into sexually even though actually it IS firmly her. It is a huge part of her life and only a choice few of her friends know about it. I guess she is a closet sub. The reason she doesnt tell people is because a lot of people wouldnt understand that side of her, she isnt ashamed of it though. If she had a Dom gf who wanted her to 'come out' as a sub to her parents/lots of her other friends she just couldnt/wouldnt do it.
> I know this is different from this 'closet fa' argument in the fact that it is not a person she is deciding not to reveal but a huge part of herself. I guess it would relate to an Fa that is with fat people but doesnt proclaim it they just live it.
> The reason i was thinking about this is because i wonder if anyone is truly open about all aspects of their sexuality confidently to everyone. After reading pages and pages of these two threds and dancing little circles in my head i'm begining really not to care anymore. who is 'in' and who is 'out.. their reasons, scare stories etc. All i really care about is that fat people dont get the shit or the fall out from anyone harmful, which actually i cant do anything about anyway, as it is down to the individual to keep an eye open for people they suspect to be arseholes. In the past i had met big women and thought they seemed wary, of attention, of Fa's of me, of my intentions,, and you know what. I really understand why now. To be honest i never realised what a minefield it was. It seems a pity really because it ends up fat people being wary of Fa's..which in turn becomes cyclical and Fa's become wary of fat people because they might get the brunt of bad feelings from previous bad experiences of other Fa's.
> Anyway, sorry this thread has made you feel so bad you had to talk it over with your therapist. Hopefully, getting things aout will make you feel better and if you feel it is just making you feel bad then maby it would be best to rest for a while and let the rest do some fighting for a while.
> ...



I have learned to let the anger go. Strangely it's more out of lack of energy than it is some feeling of justice. I just don't have the energy anymore to worry about what fearful people do regarding fatness. These two threads have also clarified the difference between the two different types of FAs, so I've gotten something out of it. I think your assessment is correct tho. It will come up again after a break from it. 

As for the closet sub....I don't think being an SM player and being an FA who doesn't have a kink are the same things....All my friends know about my sexuality because I discussed it with them ad nauseum when I was learning this about myself. One of my coworkers know too because we talk about everything. A lot of them, no most of them don't understand it. All they can do is tell me to be careful. I haven't told my family because we aren't close emotionally. There's a lot of things about me they don't know and there are a lot of things about them I don't know. I just wouldn't talk to any of them about intimate details of my life, and they wouldn't talk to me about theirs. That's just the way we are.

Anyway, I think being a sub or a dom is fraught with politics....someone who reveals that about themselves could get fired, have their careers destroyed if they are CEOs, or end up in the hospital....or their place of business if they are hosting a dungeon could get shut down or a pro Domme could end up in jail if someone decides there is sex going on - even if there isn't and tells the police...then some people have other aspects of sexuality like being gay that intersect with SM....it's complicated and really hard for some...way more complicated than just liking a fat chick...i wouldn't, couldn't compare the two.


----------



## altered states (Feb 24, 2009)

mergirl said:


> I think it is.
> Do you like fat chicks?
> yes!
> It really is that simple..why hum and haw about it?
> ...



Yes, yes, and yes. I don't feel fully comfortable expressing the FA side of myself to my partner because it makes her feel inadequate. And expressing it to the rest of the world can also draw her into it, because of the comparisons that have been cited - "Oh really? Then explain why your partner's not fat," or makes her self conscious about her own size. So that's a minefield as well, one I navigate with varying success.


----------



## mergirl (Feb 24, 2009)

olwen said:


> I have learned to let the anger go. Strangely it's more out of lack of energy than it is some feeling of justice. I just don't have the energy anymore to worry about what fearful people do regarding fatness. These two threads have also clarified the difference between the two different types of FAs, so I've gotten something out of it. I think your assessment is correct tho. It will come up again after a break from it.
> 
> As for the closet sub....I don't think being an SM player and being an FA who doesn't have a kink are the same things....All my friends know about my sexuality because I discussed it with them ad nauseum when I was learning this about myself. One of my coworkers know too because we talk about everything. A lot of them, no most of them don't understand it. All they can do is tell me to be careful. I haven't told my family because we aren't close emotionally. There's a lot of things about me they don't know and there are a lot of things about them I don't know. I just wouldn't talk to any of them about intimate details of my life, and they wouldn't talk to me about theirs. That's just the way we are.
> 
> Anyway, I think being a sub or a dom is fraught with politics....someone who reveals that about themselves could get fired, have their careers destroyed if they are CEOs, or end up in the hospital....or their place of business if they are hosting a dungeon could get shut down or a pro Domme could end up in jail if someone decides there is sex going on - even if there isn't and tells the police...then some people have other aspects of sexuality like being gay that intersect with SM....it's complicated and really hard for some...way more complicated than just liking a fat chick...i wouldn't, couldn't compare the two.


Never mind.. it got too convoluted and i got confused!!


----------



## mergirl (Feb 24, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Yes, yes, and yes. I don't feel fully comfortable expressing the FA side of myself to my partner because it makes her feel inadequate. And expressing it to the rest of the world can also draw her into it, because of the comparisons that have been cited - "Oh really? Then explain why your partner's not fat," or makes her self conscious about her own size. So that's a minefield as well, one I navigate with varying success.


Right. i dont see the problem. i hope you and your partner are both really happy together. 
Though, if my bi-sexual partner talks about a guy she finds hot (not often as my gorgeousity has blinded her to men! lol) i dont in any way feel inadiquate.. i dont see how your wife knowing you also like fat chicks would make her feel inadiquate..
I guess if my gf spent every day on a site for 'women who like men' and was very involved in the community i think i would suspect she would prefer to be with a guy and probs tell her that she should be..as in the long run it might make both of us more happy. But then, sex and sexuality isnt everything in a relationship is is?


----------



## altered states (Feb 24, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Right. i dont see the problem. i hope you and your partner are both really happy together.
> Though, if my bi-sexual partner talks about a guy she finds hot (not often as my gorgeousity has blinded her to men! lol) i don't in any way feel inadequate.. i don't see how your wife knowing you also like fat chicks would make her feel inadequate...



She's fairly cool with it, like I said not the jealous type at all. She points out enough guys as "hot" who don't look a thing like me, and I really don't care about that, either.



mergirl said:


> I guess if my gf spent every day on a site for 'women who like men' and was very involved in the community i think i would suspect she would prefer to be with a guy and probs tell her that she should be..as in the long run it might make both of us more happy. But then, sex and sexuality isn't everything in a relationship is it?



Well, I'm not quite on here every day (except lately in keeping track of this thread) and my involvement in the "community" stops here. But yeah, I see your point, and I can't explain or justify it. My lust for her as opposed to that for much bigger women seems to come from different parts of my brain, a la the guy who still lusts for his wife but has the 30 gigs of downloads featuring women who look nothing like her. I guess that would be the "love" part that some believe in, some don't. She's actually suggested over the years several times that I "go out and find a fat chick and have fun" (her words) but I'm not stupid enough to take her seriously.


----------



## Fascinita (Feb 24, 2009)

tres huevos said:


> Yes, yes, and yes.



I'll have what he's having.


I'm seriously out of things to say in this thread. Was a thrill ride, though, even if I did get a few "misspoken" "truths" said about me. I think there's been some dialogue here, and I'm _still_ grateful that a place to talk about fat exists. 

Now let's go out there and show 'em what fat is made of. (I mean you ambivalent types, too.) We won't be stopped and I swear it.


----------



## Littleghost (Feb 24, 2009)

olwen said:


> I don't believe that. I just don't. How many guys do you know who would date any race, any size, any age, any shape of woman? I've only known one. Even if you knew a guy who liked a wide size range, what about race, what about class? I know a lot of guys who'd never date outside their race or their class. Truly open minded individuals are hard to come by......If it's social pressure that is stopping people from enjoying their lives rather than personal choices, then there's something wrong somewhere....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Makes pretty good sense to me.
I think most people tend to externalize the world and so they honestly don't see things as just different but actually 'wrong' because they can't easily reconcile it with the way they see things. Their identity is based a bit on the world outside them which makes their worldview rather fragile and so it's threatening to them in a very personal way. I still tend to get baffled by the way people act on a very fundamental way, but then I realize that I too, am externalizing a little and that they can't always see or understand these problems the way that I do. You wind up a bit feeling like Cassandra from Greek myth. 
In the end I think it's usually better to just pick and choose what you get involved with so you can do some actual good and not wind up draining yourself. It's sad, of course, but the people who can't and won't change certainly aren't going to thank you for the effort and you doubtless will get much out of it.


----------



## olwen (Feb 25, 2009)

Littleghost said:


> Makes pretty good sense to me.
> I think most people tend to externalize the world and so they honestly don't see things as just different but actually 'wrong' because they can't easily reconcile it with the way they see things. Their identity is based a bit on the world outside them which makes their worldview rather fragile and so it's threatening to them in a very personal way. I still tend to get baffled by the way people act on a very fundamental way, but then I realize that I too, am externalizing a little and that they can't always see or understand these problems the way that I do. You wind up a bit feeling like Cassandra from Greek myth.
> In the end I think it's usually better to just pick and choose what you get involved with so you can do some actual good and not wind up draining yourself. It's sad, of course, but the people who can't and won't change certainly aren't going to thank you for the effort and you doubtless will get much out of it.



I'm glad it made sense. I think you're right too. In the end - live and let live is the conclusion you come up with - out of necessity.


----------



## mergirl (Feb 25, 2009)

olwen said:


> I'm glad it made sense. I think you're right too. In the end - live and let live is the conclusion you come up with - out of necessity.


why not live and let die??


----------



## Admiral_Snackbar (Feb 26, 2009)

I like big butts, and I cannot lie...

anyone who wants to know any more than that, _caveat audiens_.


----------



## ImSoDead (Feb 27, 2009)

olwen said:


> How many guys do you know who would date any race, any size, any age, any shape of woman?


That was me except ... I drew the line at children and senior citizens. 

I'm married now but have fond memories of my days of adventure. :wubu:


----------

