# What Is Love?



## Stormy (Jul 10, 2006)

In Elementary School, a teacher told me that if you love someone, you would be willing to sacrifice your life so they could stay alive. Ive never been willing to die for anyone. I might for one my brothers, but really cant imagine agreeing to that. Does this mean I dont love my parents? Ive been married; dont you have to be in love for that?  The most important things in my life are my dogs, and if Im capable of loving surely I do them, but I wouldnt die for them, and it wouldnt make much sense anyway. Ive had them since they were puppies, theyre 5 and 6 now, and no one else would give them anything like the kind of life theyve had with me. If I knew I was going to die I would probably euthanize them first rather than die worried about their future. People who dont even know me and want hardly anything to do with me tell me they love me, not just guys wanting sex but like distant relatives and friends. Do these people just not care much whether they live or die? Maybe theyre religious and want to hurry to their afterlife. The term seems overused, unless most other people are very different than me, or think about it completely differently. Do you tell people you love them when you dont really think you do? Is it OK to do that? I dont feel right signing letters and holiday cards and stuff Love when I dont think its true or dont know if its true.

From dictionary.com:


> Love: A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.



A definition which includes ineffable doesnt help me all that much. Ive also heard that when you love someone you know it, but clearly I dont, unless I never have. When you love someone, do you always think so? Ive thought I might love people before, but was never sure, and looking back mostly think I did not really. I know love can cease, but is it normal to think you love someone, or that you might, and then later change your mind, or realize you never did?


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jul 10, 2006)

I forget who it was, but some guy from the Transcendentalist period said there are three kinds of love:

There's a very plain, general sort of love for your fellow man. I do think I have that. It's not a life-giving love, and people often piss me off, but I've surprised myself what I'll do out of love for my fellow human beings.

There's love within friendships and family. There are lesser and greater degrees of this. I can think of four people I'd die for. Here's the reasoning behind that:

My niece deserves the opportunity to have a full life since hers just started.

My SIL is a wonderful human being and mother. I couldn't idly sit by and let her die.

My brother M has worked too hard and hasn't acheived enough happiness in life to be allowed to die yet.

My brother R is a father and husband and an asset to his community. Again, I couldn't feel good taking him from his child and wife. He's incredibly precious to them.

Then there's romantic love. Well, within the relationship I'm in now, I might give my life just as a thoughtless act of love. I'm just wired that way. I don't know why. Human beings aren't rational animals; that's the beauty of them. A couple of quotes about love I think that explain things better than yours truly:

"What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

Ralph Waldo Emerson 

"I have been astonished that men could die martyrs for their religion -
I have shudder'd at it.
I shudder no more.
I could be martyr'd for my religion
Love is my religion
And I could die for that.
I could die for you."

John Keats


----------



## Sandie_Zitkus (Jul 10, 2006)

Love has always been so complicated for me. Is there someone I would die for. There are two people I would die for. That's all. I think love is different in every single situation too. Everyone I do love I seem to love slightly differently.

I think "What is love" is really a philosophical question. You don't know what it is until you feel it - and until you feel it you will never understand it. And even then it's hard to explain.

Give yourself time - love is illusive yet wonderful.:wubu:


----------



## AnnMarie (Jul 10, 2006)

I think this is a really interesting post, and will look forward to all the responses. 

For me, love is a varying thing. I take it seriously, I wouldn't say it if I don't mean it, and like Stormy, even feel odd putting it on a card if I don't think I mean it. I don't want it to be misinterpreted or freak anyone out, so I'm very, very careful with it. 

I've felt romantic love towards 3 people in my life (from a grown up perspective, and eliminating what I now know were just HUGE crushes... still valid, but not love.) They were all slightly different - one completely unexpressed because of fear of rejection or scaring him away (lost him anyway, never hold it in), one very one-sided - loving what I thought he was, what I imagined we "could" be. The 3rd was the most real, most complete, most heartfelt, and most returned. I loved him more than words, and still do in my heart - even though he's long since moved on, and we're not together, nor will we ever be. 

That last love-that pure, accepting, shared, mutual, planning a future love-is the die for love - to me. And even thought it was romantic love in that case, the qualities I mentioned are the qualities I feel in any people I love enough to die for (my mother/father, etc). 

I also see the die for issue different. I don't think it's that you sit down and make a decision, I will trade my life... it's that instinct feeling. If they were in danger, I would put myself in harm's way to save them. I'd push them out of the way of a bullet and not think much about getting hit myself. I'd hang off the cliff to try to reach them, knowing full well it might be the end of both of us. I'd give them an organ if I can. That sort of "I'd die trying to give you life." 

I think there are definitely levels of love and types of love. I think it's wonderful that there are - because we have so many different types and levels of relationships with people, you need as many kinds of love. 

I have to say, any time I've loved, I've thought "this is love!" then something comes along and tells me that "this is love" in a new, more intense, better situation. I think that proves to me that love is a growing, evolving thing, it's something that you get better at, it's something you can grow and nurture and every time you get it right, it's a more complete experience. You learn to be someone who loves and deserves love. 

It's really a wonderful thing.


----------



## Jes (Jul 10, 2006)

Interesting, indeed. Last week, I was sitting with a friend who was telling me about the guy he's seeing, and who said: oh, god, he's about to say ILY and I just dont' want him to!! And we got to talking about that (he needed tips for how to deal with the situation) and he surprised the hell out of me by saying: I'm not sure I've ever loved anyone. Not even my parents. I mean, I'm very close with them, I like them very much, but I mean...I don't know, what IS love? 

I was glad he felt 'safe' enough to voice that thought with me, but I was surprised to hear it, too. And I thought...yeah, define love. Good luck on that one. All I could tell him, personally, was that I knew what it was (for me) b/c I knew what it WASN'T. I think I've only ever felt it once (in a romantic sense), and I say it was love b/c it wasn't like anything before or after (though I hope to feel it again, for sure). I don't think I much care for oppositional or comparative definitions, but with grey-area things like this, maybe that's all we get. And I'm not trying to drag this down, but I've always read that lots of women have never knonw if they've had an orgasm before, and I say the same thing--for me, you know that's what it was b/c it's unlike anything before or after!


----------



## Tina (Jul 10, 2006)

My way of putting it is that "I'd walk through fire for him (or her)." 

I love many, many people, and feel I'm very blessed for that. Personally, I see love in a lot of things -- things even that people might call "caring," like a heartfelt message of support to someone. IMO, love -- pure love -- is at the root of all expressed caring, even if it's not recognized as such by either/any of the people involved. I think it all comes from the same place, our ability to express compassion, caring, support, kindness, and to express familial love, romantic love, and love for friends.

I never, ever tell someone I love them without feeling it. But I will say that just as I see beauty in a lot of people, I can feel love for them, too. It may not be the kind of love that I might feel for my boyfriend, or my mother, father, etc., but it is a love for a fellow human being that I've come to know enough to see the beauty that is inside them, and to love them for that. It can happen over the internet, even if we haven't met, with friends I've come to know. And yet, even though I knew I could love my boyfriend, I wouldn't let myself feel it or think much about it until we met IRL. That's a whole different area, IMO!  I think love is both simple and complicated, but it makes life worth living, whether it's romantic love, or the love of family and friends.


----------



## BBW Betty (Jul 10, 2006)

Boy, talk about a difficult thing to answer!  

All the posts so far are just fantastic, and every one of them correct. (How often do we hear that on these boards?) It's going to be different for every person, I think. And yes, "love" is truly an overused word.

To me, it mean wanting the best of things for another person, and being willing to absorb threats to that person into yourself. Sometimes that would include dying for that person, sometimes other types of sacrifice. 

There are many people in this world I love, even if I don't always like some of the things they do. This is where the "tough love" of parenting comes in; the job of making your child successful in relationships and work ethic sometimes means holding them accountable when they do something mean or stupid.

One thing I've heard religious leaders say is that when a couple marry, part of the job is to help each other get to Heaven. This is a hard thing to describe or consider, but my husband and I talk over the "right thing" to do in various situations on a regular basis. We both have family that drive us up the wall, but we know that we still make sure to treat them decently. 

This could get really long and rambling, so I'll quit here. Just hope it made sense to somebody.


----------



## Mini (Jul 10, 2006)

http://ckjcwf.ytmnd.com/

/Got nothin'?


----------



## eightyseven (Jul 10, 2006)

Ah... not the first to ask this question. I believe it was Haddaway who said sometime in the late 80s / early 90s, "What is love? Baby don't hurt me... don't hurt me... no more." What a statement. What a song.


----------



## swamptoad (Jul 10, 2006)

Mini said:


> http://ckjcwf.ytmnd.com/
> 
> /Got nothin'?




.................:doh: ...............


p.s. Thanks for posting that Mini!


----------



## swamptoad (Jul 10, 2006)

Tina said:


> My way of putting it is that "I'd walk through fire for him (or her)."
> 
> I love many, many people, and feel I'm very blessed for that. Personally, I see love in a lot of things -- things even that people might call "caring," like a heartfelt message of support to someone. IMO, love -- pure love -- is at the root of all expressed caring, even if it's not recognized as such by either/any of the people involved. I think it all comes from the same place, our ability to express compassion, caring, support, kindness, and to express familial love, romantic love, and love for friends.
> 
> I never, ever tell someone I love them without feeling it. But I will say that just as I see beauty in a lot of people, I can feel love for them, too. It may not be the kind of love that I might feel for my boyfriend, or my mother, father, etc., but it is a love for a fellow human being that I've come to know enough to see the beauty that is inside them, and to love them for that. It can happen over the internet, even if we haven't met, with friends I've come to know. And yet, even though I knew I could love my boyfriend, I wouldn't let myself feel it or think much about it until we met IRL. That's a whole different area, IMO!  I think love is both simple and complicated, but it makes life worth living, whether it's romantic love, or the love of family and friends.



Tina, very well-put. I like the way you described it. I also like what you've done with your hair. :bow:


----------



## The Kid (Jul 10, 2006)

I think love is just ultimate dedication to a person or a cause. If you love something enough, it starts to become a part of you, and losing it would be just as bad as losing yourself. 
If you truly love something you should be willing to sacrifice everything for it, because to have loved and lost is one of the most devastating feelings one could ever imagine...

*"Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for a friend."*

To me that quote sums it up.




_but that's just me..._


----------



## AnnMarie (Jul 10, 2006)

Mini said:


> http://ckjcwf.ytmnd.com/
> 
> /Got nothin'?



Oh man, you got me so bad with that. I was head bobbin' and all. 

*guilty*


----------



## Paul Fannin (Jul 10, 2006)

Laying down your life for someone is easy. 

Love is living for someone.


----------



## ~angelpassion~ (Jul 11, 2006)

*I just read this on another site. I thought I would post it here. *
*What is love................... 

Love is loyal. 
Love is wanting the best for the other person. 
Love is compromising and working things out in a way that you both can win. 
Love is finding common ground. 
Love is trying to come together in a way that makes the world a better place. 
Love is selfless. 
Love is caring about the other person's emotional needs and feelings.* 
*What is lust................ 

Lust is self-gratification. 
Lust can be obsessive. 
Lust is usually tied to sexual gratification. 
Lust is selfish. 
Lust doesn't consider the other persons wants and needs. 
Lust doesn't care about how the other person's day went. 
When someone's in lust they aren't interested in meeting family or friends. 
Lust is wanting something to the point that you don't care who gets hurt. 
Lust manipulates, destroys and controls. 
Lust often involves raging. 
People who lusts may think they are in love, but the fire burns out quickly when they get the person or thing they lust for. 
Lust doesn't last, but love does *


----------



## Friday (Jul 11, 2006)

Love is that state in which another person's happiness is more important to you than your own.*

My husband would *not* be happy if I died trying to protect him from something. Therefore in our situation you'd love somebody enough to live for them, not enough to die.

* Either R A Heinlein or Spider Robinson, I'm a little sleepy right now. g-nite.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jul 11, 2006)

Paul Fannin said:


> Laying down your life for someone is easy.
> 
> Love is living for someone.



Precisely how many people have you died for? Just curious.


----------



## Boteroesque Babe (Jul 11, 2006)

This is one for the philosophers, but I'll give it a poke. 

Your teacher may have given you some bum information, Stormy.

I'm not sure there are any absolutes in romantic love. How you experience it (and _whether_ you experience it) is determined by who you are, and how emotionally mature you've become. With the exception of maternal love, I'm not sure any "I'd die for..." scenario can be accurately predicted, though romantic love does have a very strong protective component, and a selfless concern for your loved one's happiness.

This part I feel strongly about. I believe when you're in love, you know it. There's a fiery need associated with romantic love that's unmistakable. Almost compulsive. For me, at least.

You're an interesting person, Stormy. I'll be watching this next chapter of your life with interest. Hope you'll keep us updated.


----------



## Tina (Jul 11, 2006)

swamptoad said:


> Tina, very well-put. I like the way you described it. I also like what you've done with your hair. :bow:



Thank you, Swampy. And welcome back.


----------



## JustPlainJim (Jul 11, 2006)

Dammit. Someone beat me to the Haddaway song. That means I have to give a serious answer (the horror!)

What is love, in my opinion? That all depends. The are many different definitions for "love", just as there are many different kinds of "love". ( I hate putting love in quotes like that. I've been hanging around with people whose views conflict with my own idealistic/romantic notions. )
(Might want to note that I'm the kind of guy that can say "love" to friends. Close friends, at least)

To me, love is... a friendship, a kinship. A connection and a commonality between two people. A bond. 
The romantic in me says "Aww, that's sweet".... The scientist in me says "THAT'S NOT AN ANSWER!!"

It's a wanting, a longing. A desire to be with this person. The knowledge that this person is 'in your corner'... That this person is there for you, at least at the moment. When they feel pain, you feel it with them. When they feel joy, you feel it with them... even if parts of you don't want to.

----
Mini-story: A young man whom I call my brother (not by blood or by laws, but by choice) is madly in love with a young woman. On a daily basis, he tells me how wonderful she is, how much he loves her, how she's all he really needs. At first, it hurt. Why? Becuase I'm greedy. He's my best friend, my brother, and I love him as such... and he's having fun without me. Now? It should be hurting more since he's faling deeper in love with her, but... I feel happy for him. Becuase he deserves to be happy.
----

Maybe that's part of it. Maybe it's willing to do anything for a person, even if it hurts you, just to make them happy (( "No, that's what we call being someone's bitch."  ))

...
A friend once told me that he thought of the purest form of love this way...
Imagine If someone had their head on your shoulder. Not leaning, but literally attached. You and this other person sharing literally everything in life, including your body from the neck down. Can you think of someone with whom you'd not only "wouldn't mind it", but would enjoy it? Can you think of anyone with whom you'd actually _try_ to share everything in your lives? It's rare but it happens.

...
I've always thought, looking back on a previous relationship... During some of my more "emo" moments, I fnd myself thinking "I'm glad she gave up someone that would die for her (me), for someone that would live for her."
... Wow, that line sucks when written out... Sounded so much cooler in my head...

...
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.


----------



## mottiemushroom (Jul 11, 2006)

Just as every personality is different ... so i believe every love we have for others is different & personalized.


----------



## chocolate desire (Jul 11, 2006)

"TRUE LOVE?" Is this the love that stays with you night and day never failing to wake you up with thoughts of the one you love...Of course hormones do the same thing...and also hormones keep you in the mood longer.BUt still, true love could be the thought process.....Maybe it is those butterflies you get when you see that specail person....Maybe it is the tears that wet your pillow when you have to spend a night away from that warm and familiar body....Ehh....love is crazy......makes a grown man fall to his knees.I think it just has to be something like this.....I am happy when I am around you no matter how bad of a day it has been...I love you.....lol...okay maybe lame...but it works for me.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jul 11, 2006)

I am replying without reading most of the responses...I didn't want to lose my train of thought.

I am in love. I know it. Do I feel it? No, not always. Most of the time I do. Love isn't always emotion.

Love Is....

Committment
Communication
Attraction
Devotion
Understanding
Sacrifice
Unconditional Acceptance
When your heart skips a beat when you look into his eyes knowing he is the "one".
Being in his arms and not being able to think of anywhere else in the world you would rather be.
When doing things to make him smile bring you pure happiness.
Complicated.
An emotion and an action.
Having the worst day of your life and having your loved there waiting to make you smile...and when you finally do smile...tears come to his eyes.


Sometimes I look at Mike and I can FEEL love...and I don't mean sexual hubba hubba I wanna jump your bones love....I mean pure adoration for him as a unique individual. And other days those emotions are less, but my thoughts of him are the same. I think if any relationship was static, then we wouldn't be able to feel the really good days.

You can tell me to screw off, lol. I've only been in love twice. This love that I have with mike....wow....I can't see a future without him. I see us growing old together. I see us laughing throughout our lifetimes together. I can't explain what love is really.....I just know I have it. THERE!

Love is like a disease, lol. You know you have it, but you can't describe it...you can only describe the symptoms thereof. And you don't understand how it feels until you have that disease too.

LOL. wow. Someone take the keyboard away, lol.


----------



## Egbert Souse (Jul 11, 2006)

Unfortunately, wacko Elementary Teachers are not all that rare.

I love ya, Stormy, but it kinda disturbed me that you'd consider having your dogs euthanized if you found out you were gonna die.
Personally, i'd go down looking for a good home for mine.

This thread gave me a headache.
All i can tell you regarding your question is, don't take any input seriously from anybody who hates all their ex's.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jul 11, 2006)

Egbert Souse said:


> Unfortunately, wacko Elementary Teachers are not all that rare.
> 
> I love ya, Stormy, but it kinda disturbed me that you'd consider having your dogs euthanized if you found out you were gonna die.
> Personally, i'd go down looking for a good home for mine.
> ...




Ok let me tell you a story...and Ill try not to cry.

I had a dog. A sweet toy poodle named monique. I had her since birth...as my mother owned her mother. She grew up with me....from age 11 til age 24. She had made several moves between Idaho and California with me...she had grown up with me. 

Monique and I had a special connetion...a psychic connection. I knew when she needed things. All she had to do was come and make eye contact with me and I knew exactly what she needed.

I love her still more than I have ever loved another. *cries*

The time came for me to go to college and leave her. My parents promised to take good care of her. And they did. I came home to see her as much as possible. She was getting old though. Suffering from arthritis...and deep depression and anxiety since I wasn't there.

I took her to a vet to have her checked out to see if I could put her to sleep since she was miserable without me. The vet told me she was fine..and had many years left. Not 2 months later and Monique died. She ran away and died by the river....I have been drawn to water all of my life...and I think she ran away (the first time ever) to die by water because she knew she would be found. *sobs*

My best friend died alone. She depended on me for everything....I loved her so much...and she loved me unconditionally. I have never wished ill upon anyone....but I hope with all of my heart that that vet dies alone...miserably.

My heart has never been so broken. I can completely understand putting a dog down for their emotional good. Most people are like you..and pets are just pets....but for some of us.....our pets are our world.

*cries* omg I miss her so much. I will never ever own another pet.


----------



## Jes (Jul 11, 2006)

Egbert Souse said:


> I love ya, Stormy, but it kinda disturbed me that you'd consider having your dogs euthanized if you found out you were gonna die.
> Personally, i'd go down looking for a good home for mine.
> 
> .


I had a friend who had 3 funny cats and a giant dog. Once, I visited her, and asked after the cats. They weren't there. turns out her Mom remodeled the house (inside, the decor) and had the cats put down. I don't think they matched anymore.

I was unbelievably creeped out.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jul 12, 2006)

Jes said:


> I had a friend who had 3 funny cats and a giant dog. Once, I visited her, and asked after the cats. They weren't there. turns out her Mom remodeled the house (inside, the decor) and had the cats put down. I don't think they matched anymore.
> 
> I was unbelievably creeped out.




now that....that is just insane.


----------



## LJ Rock (Jul 12, 2006)

mottiemushroom said:


> Just as every personality is different ... so i believe every love we have for others is different & personalized.



I like that... Good thought.


----------



## ~angelpassion~ (Jul 12, 2006)

mottiemushroom said:


> Just as every personality is different ... so i believe every love we have for others is different & personalized.



*I have to agree with this. The love you have for a partner, kids, parents, other family members, pets, friends, job, and hobbies is all different. But the basic underlying emotion is they/it hold a special place in your heart, mind, and life. 

Being in love holds a whole different meaning and emotion.*


----------



## ScreamingChicken (Jul 12, 2006)

Stacy and I knew each other only from work and we only talked to each other a couple of times in the 4 months from the time I started there to the time untill our first date. I mentioned to a coworker that I thought she was gorgeous then he decided to play cupid on his own volition and relayed my sentiments to her. I was on the phone with a customer when she walked by my register area very quickly, slid me a piece of paper, and then scampered off. We talked every night for 4 days straight and went out that Saturday.(November '94)

Six weeks later, after I introduced her to my parents, sisters, and grandparents ( the general consensus was "We REALLY like this one.") I finally told her " I Love You", feeling that way within a couple weeks of our first date. It was a combination of deep intimacy (not just physical) and a sense of familiarity that we couldn't put our fingers on. We were over at my parents less than a month later when my mom asked us out of the blue when we were going to get married. We hadn't told anyone that we were talking about marriage but I guess we couldn't hide it from mom. February '95 , we were officially engaged.

Shortly thereafter, My mom give us a Tarot card reading, and she told us that we were married to each other in a former life and we died young. It sounds a little silly but it would explain the familiairty that we felt in each other. I guess I was looking for my long lost love and didn't know it. I soon realized that I wasn't just marrying the love of my life but my best friend. We were married in June "95 (Seven months from first date to nuptials).

Eleven years later, we have been fortunate to have our love for each other strengthened by the love we have for our son and daughter. It is truly amazing to be able to fall in love with someone who is not only a little bit of the love of your life but also yourself. An acceptable form of narcissism , if you will. I cannot imagine my life without Wesley and Katie. My heart and my soul.

I probably haven't given anyone anything resembling a working definition of "love".All I can say is that when you experience love, you'll know it. You'll just know.

Rick


----------



## Santaclear (Jul 12, 2006)

This thread made me fall in love with Stormy's elementary school teacher. :wubu:


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jul 12, 2006)

Jes said:


> I had a friend who had 3 funny cats and a giant dog. Once, I visited her, and asked after the cats. They weren't there. turns out her Mom remodeled the house (inside, the decor) and had the cats put down. I don't think they matched anymore.
> 
> I was unbelievably creeped out.



Do gray and white kitties go with burgandy bedspreads, or do I need to off my kitty?


----------



## Chimpi (Jul 12, 2006)

Paul Fannin said:


> Laying down your life for someone is easy.
> 
> Love is living for someone.



Now this, this I will agree with.
It expresses the difficulty in achieving it, and the absolute justification for having it, methinks.

I have been asked by my best friend before to describe love, and he always rebuttles with the fact that:
It is a scientifically proven fact that love is a hormonal attraction on a great level. Or some such thing.
I'm not really sure. It's very hard to describe love.
He then came back with "What is the opposite of love?" "You're going to say hate, Justin, aren't you?"
And no, I believe the opposite is "indifferent".
Now if you sit here and think about it, the definition for both "hate" and "indifferent" are pretty easy: Hate is to have the opposite of caring for an individual... Hate can be violent and irrational, and plenty of times vengeful. Indifferent is quite harmful, being as it is not caring for _at all_ in any way shape or form.
So, does this pose the question that love is just to "care for" deeply? Well, of course. And that is as far as I'm willing to "define" it right now, but it certainly is quite the question.

But I think an admirable quote is "Loving is living for someone". 

*EDIT:* I have this theory that every human being is different. Well, that is obvious, but I also mean that they view things, see things, feel things, think things, and experience things differently. For instance...
I have been thinking that maybe the definition of "Time" to every single human being is not absolute. That it has some fluctuation from person to person. Maybe the person you know and deeply love experiences Time in a slower or faster manner. Maybe Time itself treats us all different.
Same thing with Love. I am sure that many people already say and believe that everyone loves differently, and it is different in many cases. Such has been the point of a few posts already. But if you sit and think about it, maybe the greatest level of Love for one person does not even come close to that of another (in a measurement format). *sigh*


----------



## rainyday (Jul 12, 2006)

I also feel funny writing "love" on cards or letters when I dont mean it, so I dont. However there are quite a few people in my life that I do feel genuine love for and in the past few years Ive started telling them that without the shyness or awkwardness I felt about it when I was younger.

A couple years ago I was ending a phone call with a dear female friend Ive known for 30 years and without thinking said, "Bye. I love you." My boyfriend and I always ended our calls that way and my brain just said it automatically. When I realized what Id said, I started to say "Wait, I didnt mean. . . ." and then I thought well shes like a sister to me and I do love her, so I told her that. Now we both end our calls together with "I love you" and it makes me warm and fuzzy every time. Its wonderful to be loved.

Id give my life for any of the people I love, but I would also do the same thing for a lot of strangers, especially a child. Having read the posts here, maybe that makes me a little weird. Partly its because Ive lost my partner and Im ready to go anytime, anywhere God wants to take me too; and partly its because I think Ive had a good run at life. Ive had a lot of opportunities, done a lot of things. If someone had a life yet to live or had others depending on them, Id do it and Im not sure Id have to think much about it. If I had people depending on me, thatd be different.

Romantically Ive only ever loved one man. I had a deep infatuation with someone about 15 years ago. But the love thats the walk-through-fire-cant-live-without-you-totally-unconditional-accept-all-your-faults and-love-you-no-matter-what kind of love, just one. And I agree, you do just know it.


----------



## activistfatgirl (Jul 12, 2006)

Everyone here is great, and I "love" you all, but this thread has had that stupid song in my head for days and I demand it get changed! I'm going insane!

And if I'm insane, will I ever find love? 

Personally, I'm a big fan of the four loves we translate to one word. My favorite love right now is Agape, loving your fellow human (and being) unconditionally. I'm excited about eros style love, but I can wait as long as Agape is around and vibrant.


----------



## rainyday (Jul 12, 2006)

I just read the Wikipedia entry for love. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love#_note-0. It says "...approximately 13 percent of cultures reportedly have no word for love." Odd to say "cultures" rather than "languages," but I wonder if that's true.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jul 12, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Everyone here is great, and I "love" you all, but this thread has had that stupid song in my head for days and I demand it get changed! I'm going insane!
> 
> And if I'm insane, will I ever find love?
> 
> Personally, I'm a big fan of the four loves we translate to one word. My favorite love right now is Agape, loving your fellow human (and being) unconditionally. I'm excited about eros style love, but I can wait as long as Agape is around and vibrant.



YES, it's quite possible to be insane and find love. Look how nice I am to Ryan, who believes shorts are not a form of pants, but an entire different entity. (I'm serious.)


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Jul 12, 2006)

After a few initial posts, I had not intended to post further until I had prepared a better introduction and profile. I hope to get that done sometime during the next week or so. 

Meanwhile, there are so many wonderful, heart-felt, articulate posts here that I can't resist jumping in and (probably) muddying up the waters a bit. 

While there is much (much more than you want to hear, I'm sure) that I could say about my wife and our relationship, I will save that for another time. Right now, I want to share something about a recently deceased opera singer and her composer husband. 

Lorraine Hunt Leiberson, mezzo-soprano, recently died. While I follow opera to an extent, I'm ashamed to say that I had not heard of her. I tracked her down on the web and have been listening to her sweet, expressive voice this evening. There are a number of streaming audio selections on NPR.com. 

Her husband, Peter Leiberson, set a number of Pablo Neruda's love poems to music, specifically for his wife. Sonnet XCII was one of the last she sang publicly before she died. I saw somewhere that, when Peter tried to explain that song from the stage, he simply could not do it - couldn't get the words out. I can believe that. Perhaps that is another meaning which could be assigned to 'ineffable' - when your heart knows the words, but will not let them pass. 

Sonnet XCII is the fifth of the five songs that Peter chose to set to music. Here are some of his comments on the piece, from one of the links, below. 

" Finally, the fifth poem, "My love, if I die and you don't," is very sad and peaceful at the same time. There is the recognition that no matter how blessed one is with love, there will be a time when we must part from those whom we cherish so much. Still, Neruda reminds one that love has not ended. In truth there is no real death to love nor even a birth: "It is like a long river, only changing lands, and changing lips." 

Here are several links to interviews and streaming audio which you may appreciate. 

Comments by Peter Leiberson on the Neruda Songs. 
http://www.laphil.com/resources/piece_detail.cfm?id=1469 

From NPR: streaming audio and interviews 
http://www.npr.org/search.php?text="Lorraine+Hunt+Lieberson"&sort=DREDATE: 
numberdecreasing&aggId=0&prgId=0&topicId=0&how_long_ago=0 

Translations of Pablo Neruda poems 
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~carolyn1/neruda.html 

From Stereophile - a nice biography 
http://www.stereophile.com/news/071006lhh/ 

From Nonesuch recordings 
http://journal.nonesuch.com/journal/2006/07/lorraine_hunt_l.html


----------



## truth38 (Jul 13, 2006)

Love has always been a little difficult to define when I was younger. I always said "I love you" meant it, but did not really understand there were many types of love.
Love for family
Love for friends
Being IN Love with a man
Loving the FEELING someone may have given at the moment


----------



## Stormy (Jul 13, 2006)

Egbert Souse said:


> it kinda disturbed me that you'd consider having your dogs euthanized if you found out you were gonna die.
> Personally, i'd go down looking for a good home for mine.


I understand feeling that way, and if I had a puppy or younger adult dog I would find it a home. I definitely could find them new homes, as I have for dozens of stray/abandoned animals Ive encountered over the years. But even the most at least seemingly well-intentioned people often get pets and then later cant or dont want to take care of them, often due to the smallest change in circumstances. I must have seen ads from people wanting to get rid of a pet because moving, new landlord doesnt allow pets hundreds of times. Um, how about finding a different landlord who does allow them? The three of us would live in my Geo Metro before Id get rid of my dogs. I know many other people also care greatly for their pets, but think a very small percentage of dogs get the level of care and attention mine do. Im with them about 99% of the time, long daily walks with swimming, human food to eat (healthy stuff, not scraps), tons of affection and interaction, constant access to both the house and a large fenced yard, vacation trips all over the country, etc. Any other home I could find them would almost definitely be vastly inferior to what theyre used to, all theyve ever known, besides a huge adjustment for a middle-aged dog to make. Neither is safe around cats, so that eliminates a lot of homes, and one is a bit of problem child, bites if touched when eating or sleeping and so wouldnt be safe around children either and even harder to place. I would rather end their lives painlessly than put them through that and take a chance of them being abandoned or mistreated.



Egbert Souse said:


> don't take any input seriously from anybody who hates all their ex's.


Good point. It can't always be the ex's fault.



TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Human beings aren't rational animals; that's the beauty of them.


That may be part of why it is so hard to understand for me. I AM very rational. Rational is my temperament type according to this test. I like things to be clearly defined and scientifically proven, and have little understanding or appreciation of abstract things such as art, music and poetry. Just say what you mean, damn it! 

Thanks a lot for the comments (even the poems and songs LOL). They are giving me plenty to think about.

And Jes, if love is as easy to recognize as orgasm then I most definitely have never felt it, and if it's half as fun can't wait to!


----------



## bigfatstripeycat (Jul 13, 2006)

I guess for me, love is a feeling for another person or thing that's so intense, you literally hurt when it's gone--some unknown, undefined pit inside you, gnawing away. It's a feeling to want to be around that person that's so strong that few (if any) can truly replace it. Maybe it's cliche, but it's like an addiction--you keep wanting and consuming, never getting enough, hoping that the other person feels for you in the exact same way. I have a few paired friends who are like this, and watching them interact is so damned beautiful and special. That sort of love is really rare, I think.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jul 13, 2006)

bigfatstripeycat said:


> I guess for me, love is a feeling for another person or thing that's so intense, you literally hurt when it's gone--some unknown, undefined pit inside you, gnawing away. It's a feeling to want to be around that person that's so strong that few (if any) can truly replace it. Maybe it's cliche, but it's like an addiction--you keep wanting and consuming, never getting enough, hoping that the other person feels for you in the exact same way. I have a few paired friends who are like this, and watching them interact is so damned beautiful and special. That sort of love is really rare, I think.




*sigh* I have that love. Everyone who sees us together say they have never seen another couple more in love. And people are constantly telling me something has hanged about me....I seem happier, evenwhen Im sad...and that I have a glow about me. I feel so lucky to have this rare type of love. 

4 Days until I see him again!!!!!!! (It's even more special that we have that type of love having the Atlantic Ocean between us.)  Im a lucky girl!


----------



## Stormy (Jul 14, 2006)

George Bush loves us all.



> WASHINGTON, DC Displaying the selfless courage that has defined his presidency, President Bush announced Tuesday that he will heroically lay down his life that the rest of the nation may live on. "It is the only way," Bush said. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I must, therefore, die to preserve future generations." Over the vociferous objections of his closest Cabinet members, Bush brushed aside their outstretched arms, repeating, "It is the only way."


----------



## Boteroesque Babe (Jul 14, 2006)

....then he and Captain Kirk tongue kissed, and before settling into that sweet eternal slumber, Bush gave the Vulcan howdy-do wave, and whispered with his last breath, "Mission... accomplished."

Until the sequel.*




*next war


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jul 14, 2006)

Stormy said:


> George Bush loves us all.




LMAO! I knew that had to be an onion quote. LOLOL!!!!!!


----------



## Santaclear (Jul 15, 2006)

Stormy said:


> George Bush loves us all.



That is REAL love. :wubu: 

GW is to be lauded. He has truly made the ultimate sacrifice for his people.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Jul 15, 2006)

To BigBellySSBBW: I'm sorry for your loss - I'm not sure how long ago it happened, but it's obvious that you are still grieving. I have a dog too, and I can't imagine losing him. He's been with me for 8 years. 

People who say that pets don't grieve are people who don't have pets. Our fur babies form very close attachments to us, love us unconditionally, and ask for so little in return. Yet, like us, they are also capable of healing. They can move on & adjust to life with a new family, especially if treated well. Their expectations are very small: to be well fed, to have some outlet for boredom (exercise, chew toys, special attention), and to be part of a consistent routine. Dogs are pack animals, and they need to know their place in the family hierarchy (and woe unto us when we allow them to become dominant, but that's another issue). I'm sure that your vet objected, on ethical grounds, to euthanizing a pet who was otherwise physically healthy. 

To Stormy: I've had to learn a lot about animal behaviors, because I'm adopting a child, and I'm very hopeful that I can reverse some of the horrible mistakes that I've made with my beloved pet. A few years ago, we took him to obedience classes for a while, but it became obvious that his behaviors were too entrenched to get much from a run-of-the-mill "teach your dog to sit/stay/roll over" type of class. In May, out of desperation, we hired a trainer who is teaching us how to interact with Tux, in a 1-1 setting. Some of what we are learning was surprising to us. Like, not allowing Tux to EVER enter a room before we do, to run ahead of us, to sleep in our bed or get on the furniture. These behaviors have been so ingrained in him (he thinks he's the leader of our pack) that we have to keep him on a lead and use an electric collar. I hate using it. But despite our loving intentions, we've created a little monster by treating our dog as if he's human. If we cannot make him believe that *we* are the pack leaders, then we will eventually have to euthanize him. A fear aggressive dog is not a good candidate for placement in a new home. 

My dog has always had plenty of good, nourishing food & access to a spacious yard & to our entire home. He's been very pampered. He was allowed to jump on furniture, to crawl into bed with us at night, and he wasn't corrected when he growled at us for attempting to take a toy from him or for any other reason that he deemed a threat to his pack position. And yet, he's always been an anxious & fearful little mess. We started working with our trainer 2 months ago. I have to say, he is a happier dog. And we treat him like our dog, not our child. He knows what we expect from him. He knows what will happen if he does not comply. He's generously praised with treats when he obeys a command, and he is corrected when he does not. The one thing I just can't bear to "correct" in him is sleeping with us at night, but we keep him at the foot of the bed. 

You obviously take your responsibility to your pets very seriously. My husband & I always have as well. Because of our circumstances, we have had to think about that "what if" factor, and we knew that we could not place Tux in another home (the liability if he bit some hapless person ). I firmly believe that part of my responsibility to Tux includes training him how to interact with others, so that if something were to happen to us, he would not have to be euthanized. We wouldn't dream of euthanizing a child, because the parents died.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist (Jul 15, 2006)

Tip for you, Traci: Don't keep things in your house called "fire cups" when your child is old enough to think fire is fun.  My parents learned the hard way.


----------



## Egbert Souse (Jul 15, 2006)

Stormy said:


> George Bush loves us all.



*That does it!
I gotta start following the news more closely.

I hereby retract all the things i've ever said or felt about the character of that man.
I still don't think he was much of a prez but he was obviously one hell of an American.

Indicative of how "on topic" i consider this news, i will be rethinking my consternation regarding what death has to do with love.*


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jul 15, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> To BigBellySSBBW: I'm sorry for your loss - I'm not sure how long ago it happened, but it's obvious that you are still grieving. I have a dog too, and I can't imagine losing him. He's been with me for 8 years.
> 
> People who say that pets don't grieve are people who don't have pets. Our fur babies form very close attachments to us, love us unconditionally, and ask for so little in return. Yet, like us, they are also capable of healing. They can move on & adjust to life with a new family, especially if treated well. Their expectations are very small: to be well fed, to have some outlet for boredom (exercise, chew toys, special attention), and to be part of a consistent routine. Dogs are pack animals, and they need to know their place in the family hierarchy (and woe unto us when we allow them to become dominant, but that's another issue). I'm sure that your vet objected, on ethical grounds, to euthanizing a pet who was otherwise physically healthy.



It happened nearly 2 years ago. I still cant forgive myself.

I have to disagree that pets move on. Maybe they all do except Monique. Until her dying day she stared out windows to see if I would be home. Ok I gotta stop or Im gunna cry.

If she was so healthy how is it she passed away within 2 months? Not possible. Unless she died of a broken heart. *cries*


----------



## Jes (Jul 15, 2006)

bigfatstripeycat said:


> I guess for me, love is a feeling for another person or thing that's so intense, you literally hurt when it's gone--some unknown, undefined pit inside you, gnawing away. It's a feeling to want to be around that person that's so strong that few (if any) can truly replace it. Maybe it's cliche, but it's like an addiction--you keep wanting and consuming, never getting enough, hoping that the other person feels for you in the exact same way. I have a few paired friends who are like this, and watching them interact is so damned beautiful and special. That sort of love is really rare, I think.


I guess I feel, personally, that's more a definition of an infatuation. There really are chemical things that happen when we're infatuated. What you've described above...well I feel it for people I hardly know, at times, when I have (still, at my age--don't laugh!) crushes. So I know that ain't love.


----------



## Stormy (Jul 15, 2006)

TraciJo,

Thanks for the advice. I know quite a bit about animal, especially dog, behavior as well, having owned, worked with and done rescue work with many of them. I let both of my dogs know often that I am the pack leader. I believe my problem dogs issues result mostly from being taken away from his mother and littermates too early, and their environment not being the best before that (which is why I took him so young) and his breeding. He was a free to good home, Lab mix puppy which turned out to be mixed with Rottweiler, Chow and I dont know what else. Ive done a lot of work with him and he has improved a lot, with his only two issues remaining the aggressiveness when disturbed while eating or sleeping. I spent months feeding him everything by hand, one bite at a time, on the advice of a trainer, which was supposed to make him realize that I supply his food and can withdraw it at any time. If he showed any signs of aggression I was supposed to stop feeding him but he never does when he eats from my hand, only from a bowl or plate. The sleep biting seems almost unconscious. He wakes up growling and starting to bite so fast I dont think its intentional, then doesnt usually actually bite but stops himself and moves away from me as if to prevent himself from biting me, then after a few seconds comes back with his tail between his legs and licks me. This only happens when I accidentally touch him when sleeping now because I dont do it on purpose, and leave him alone when eating too so he doesnt get much of a chance to exhibit his bad behaviors. He is well-socialized, and gets along great with people, including children, and other dogs, even if they are dominant to him, as long as he isnt bothered when eating or sleeping. My other dog was raised and treated the same way and has a wonderful temperament with no problems at all, and dogs Ive had in the past have not had dominance/aggression problems. I dont plan to get another dog that isnt at least 7 weeks old and hasnt been in a healthy environment before that.



TraciJo67 said:


> We wouldn't dream of euthanizing a child, because the parents died.


Children are also much more protected from abuse or abandonment. They cannot be dropped off at a shelter, to spend their last days/weeks in a cage and then be euthanized, or dumped to wander around alone, going hungry and getting hit by cars while ignored or abused by people they encounter. Things can be explained to children, while dogs have no idea what happened to their former family. Dogs are not children. Mine are adults, accustomed to a certain lifestyle and environment and with more than half their lives likely already over. Ive seen too many bad things happen to animals due to irresponsible, abusive people to trust that a new home I placed them in would take care of them properly for the rest of their lives. Also, placing a pet in a new home does not create that home, but takes the home another animal could have had, causing it to die for lack of it.

Good luck with Tux, and your adoption.


----------



## Friday (Jul 16, 2006)

> People who say that pets don't grieve are people who don't have pets.



I agree a few years ago my husband went to AZ to help my snowbird mother drive home to WA for the summer. He was only supposed to be gone for 10 days but the night before they were to leave my Mom had a life threatening breathing episode and landed in CCU. A week later the hospital called my sis and I and said Mom was dying (she wasn't as it turned out) and that if we wanted to see her we needed to come NOW!

We were there within 24 hours and when my SO picked us up at the airport he told us Mom was awake and going to make it, she had however had a small stroke and for various reasons had a long road back. We had to medivac her back to WA, Sis went home and SO and I closed up the house (took a while as we knew she would never be back) and drove the 1800 miles home.

By the time we got home, he had been gone for a month and I had been gone for the last two weeks of that month. Or neighbors had been taking care of our two cats. Fresh food and water every day and at least a few minutes of loving. Our male Tux was skittery when we got home, wouldn't let D (his human) out of sight for several days. But my little Jezebel had disappeared a day or two after I left. She was still in the house but they didn't see and couldn't find her. When we got home I had to search for her. I found her upstairs and she ran downstairs and hid under the bed crying pitifully. I had to coax her out, both of us crying by then and she was a mess. Dirty, greasy, had visibly lost weight (see her pic in the pet thread, she is a very fastidious little meow). I called her vet in a panic thinking she was horribly sick and after telling him what had been going on he said that she was grieving. D had left and not come back and then I left and after a few days she thought I wasn't coming back either.

She stuck to me like a limpet for months after that when I was home. Even now, more than three years later, she gets very upset if we're gone for more than a few days. Boy can she guilt me out. :doh:


----------



## BeaBea (Jul 16, 2006)

This is a fantastic thread

For me, I never say 'I love you' for the first time unless I absolutely cant help myself. Unless the words are shrieking in my head and absolutely irresistibly bubbling their way out then I keep quiet. 

Real love for me means loving someone enough to let them go. I will absolutely sacrifice my happiness for theirs and although this doesn't exactly equate to laying down my life for theirs at the time it has hurt so much it felt like I was dying. I dont want to write too much more as this is all so personal and to explain all the circumstances would take entire essays and bore you all rigid. 

I will just say though that once I love someone I dont stop - I still love everyone I ever have regardless of the circumstances surrounding the end of the relationship. Whats more though, I'm glad I still love them and I'm proud of the fact that I'm such a fool for love. It quite literally makes life worth living  

Tracey xx


----------



## TomahWoman (Jul 18, 2006)

And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of the spirit
For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love
but a net cast forth; only the unprofitable is caught
And let your best be for your friend.
If he must know the ebb of your tide, let him know its flood also.
For what is your friend that you should seek him with hours to kill?
Seek him also with hours to live.
For it is his to fill your need, but not your emptiness.
And in the sweetness of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures.
For in the dew of little things the heart finds its morning and is refreshed.

_Nothing more to say_


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 4, 2007)

. . .a great interview with Peter Lieberson, with many comments on his wife, and how the songs came to be written. Please forgive the cardinal sin of quoting my own message in order to bump this thread. I think you will find the article to be worth forgiving the sin.



Ho Ho Tai said:


> Lorraine Hunt Leiberson, mezzo-soprano, recently died. While I follow opera to an extent, I'm ashamed to say that I had not heard of her. I tracked her down on the web and have been listening to her sweet, expressive voice this evening. There are a number of streaming audio selections on NPR.com.
> 
> Her husband, Peter Leiberson, set a number of Pablo Neruda's love poems to music, specifically for his wife. Sonnet XCII was one of the last she sang publicly before she died. I saw somewhere that, when Peter tried to explain that song from the stage, he simply could not do it - couldn't get the words out. I can believe that. Perhaps that is another meaning which could be assigned to 'ineffable' - when your heart knows the words, but will not let them pass.
> 
> ...





Peter Lieberson's Neruda Songs Wins 2008 Grawemeyer
Published: December 2, 2007
name
Peter Lieberson
Photo by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson;
courtesy University of Louisville

Neruda Songs, a song cycle written by composer Peter Lieberson that became a parting gift to his dying wife, has earned the 2008 University of Louisville Grawemeyer Award for Music Composition. The work, a group of songs based on five love poems by Chilean poet Pablo Neruda, was chosen for the $200,000 prize among 140 entries from around the world.

Lieberson began writing the song cycle in 2003 for his wife, the late mezzo-soprano Lorraine Hunt Lieberson. In 2005, she learned that she was ill with cancer. She performed it with the organizations that jointly commissioned it, the Los Angeles Philharmonic and Boston Symphony, before she died in 2006. Shortly after her death, Nonesuch issued a CD of Neruda Songs, recorded from a live performance by Lorraine Hunt Lieberson with the Boston Symphony conducted by James Levine.


http://newmusicbox.com/article.nmbx?id=5354


----------



## CandySmooch (Dec 4, 2007)

I think love is universal and many different levels. I sign my cards to friends "Love" because even if its not "L-O-V-E" I still love them in a fellow human Christian way. I always tell my siblings & mother "Love Ya" at the end of conversations - its not a deep profound drawn out thing, but it lets me convey to them that if I die tomorrow they knew I loved them and I feel better knowing they know. 

My husband & son are the only ones I convey "I love you" because they have my deepest profound love from all the way down in the bottom of my heart. I use the term as much as I feel comfortable doing so, but for me there are different levels of universal love for all and I enjoy spreading it as much as I can.


----------



## southernfa (Dec 4, 2007)

I maintain a database of quotes as a sideline interest. I cannot attest to their authenticity however there are a couple of hundred with the word Love in them. Here is a sample;

"Love is that first feeling you feel before all the bad stuff gets in the way."
- a small child

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no records of wrongs...
- 1 Corinthians 13: 4-5

Now will I draw aside the veil from Love, 
And in the temple of mine inmost soul 
Behold the Friend, Incomparable Love. 
He who would know the secret of both worlds 
Will find that the secret of them both is Love.
- Attar
(C1142 - C1220)
Farid ad-Din Attar
Persian mystic and poet

Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is why a great and clear mind loves ardently and sees distinctly what it loves.
- Blaise Pascal
(1623 - 1662)
French philosopher and mathematician

True love is that which ennobles the personality, fortifies the heart, and sanctifies the existence.
- Henri Frederic Amiel
(1821 - 1881)
Swiss philosopher

There is a certain Greatness and Latitude of Heart in Love, which is inexpressible; for it enlarges the Soul as wide as the whole Creation of God. And this shall be truly experienced by thee, beyond all Words, when the Throne of Love shall be set up in thy Heart.
- Jakob Boehme
(1575 - 1624)
German mystic

Remember that love gives nothing but from itself. Love possesses not, nor would it be possessed, for love is sufficient unto love.
- Kahlil Gibran
(1883 - 1931) 
Lebanese poet, philosopher, and artist.

Jesus lived and died in vain if he did not teach us to regulate the whole of life by the eternal Law of Love.
- Mahatma Gandhi
(1869 - 1948)
Hindu lawyer, pacifist and political activist

Love is an endless mystery, for it has nothing else to explain it.
- Rabindranath Tagore
(1861 - 1941)
Indian poet and writer

Let the beauty of what you love be what you do.
- Rumi
(1207 - 1273)
Jalalud-din Rumi, Persian saint and mystic, Sufi poet.

If anyone is interested, I can send them the full set or start a new thread or something.


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 8, 2008)

southernfa said:


> I maintain a database of quotes as a sideline interest. I cannot attest to their authenticity however there are a couple of hundred with the word Love in them. Here is a sample;
> 
> . . .
> Love is an endless mystery, for it has nothing else to explain it.
> ...



It would be terrible to let this tender, expressive and rich thread die of neglect - especially after what you have offered, Mr. Southern FA.

Mrs. Ho Ho turned 50, and only now are we getting it together to have a REAL party for her. She has been digging for quotes on friendship which convey what is, for her, just the right shade of meaning and intimacy for the separate invitations which she is sending to the people in the various circles of her life. 

Your offer to send the full set of quotes would probably overwhelm us, and our collective hard drives as well. But I know of no one better able to start a new thread on friendship. I hope it is our privilege to read it, and to contribute to it as we can.


----------



## mango (Mar 9, 2008)

*"What Is Love"*


----------



## ThikJerseyChik (Mar 9, 2008)

The Kid said:


> I think love is just ultimate dedication to a person or a cause. If you love something enough, it starts to become a part of you, and losing it would be just as bad as losing yourself.
> If you truly love something you should be willing to sacrifice everything for it, because to have loved and lost is one of the most devastating feelings one could ever imagine...
> 
> *"Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for a friend."*
> ...



I completely agree. Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## ThikJerseyChik (Mar 9, 2008)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Ok let me tell you a story...and Ill try not to cry.
> 
> I had a dog. A sweet toy poodle named monique. I had her since birth...as my mother owned her mother. She grew up with me....from age 11 til age 24. She had made several moves between Idaho and California with me...she had grown up with me.
> 
> ...



Other than sending you a large warm looooong hug, I cannot say anything else other than I feel you so deeply....and have walked in your sad shoes.

TJC


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 8, 2010)

Just days ago, Conrad (our webmaster) started this thread, with the title "Dimensions . . . Somewhere in Time." As the thread developed, I, and others, referred to our boards as a sacred chalice, into which the contents of our deep hearts and towering thoughts were placed, for the comfort, the counsel, the understanding, the amusement of those who would come later, to sample these contributions and to leave their own.

I consider this thread, along with the "Favorite Poems" thread, to be among the most Sacred-of-the-Sacred. I have bumped this thread twice before and will continue to do so until I am prohibited by the rules of the board, or the infirmities of old age.

I would add more, but it is late and Love commands me to do what I do willingly anyway - retire for the night to take my place beside the one I love.


----------



## spiritangel (Mar 8, 2010)

Wow some truly amazing and thought provoking answers

I tend to believe love radiates from the inside outwards towards all who come into contact with you.

For me love is respectful, kindness, being courtious, perhaps compromising just a little, is magical and is unconditional, not an I will love you if you loose weight, change who you are ect (one of my last conversations with my ex before we split when we were talking about what we could do to make the relationship better and he said loose weight wich according to him from the start wasnt an issue the loved me no matter what if I lost weight got bigger or stayed the same I was told hmmm interesting how things change) oh my so many things

I dont believe we ever truly stop loving someone just the way we love them changes, I dont hate my exe's and wish them the very best life they can possibly have.

I do believe there are many many different forms of love, and am a big believer in expressing that love, I truly love nothing more than to create a bear or scrapbook something for people I do love be it family or friends or romantically (ie so if you end up with me as a girlfriend you better appreciate the time and effort andthought that went into creating you something from the heart rather than things of the store bought kind wich you will still get on occassion as well)

I am happy to express my love, I have been in love probably 3 times that I truely know of in the romantic sense, and sometimes have learnt love cannot overcome every obstical and that sometimes one person is more in love than the other, that it can be painful, messy, wonderful, fun, passionate, creative and just plain awesome to be in love with someone to get butterflies everytime you see them, to know that even when you are not near each other you are thinking of them and it makes your heart skip a beat, you feel like you are sharing life with someone and they they understand who you are for the most part ect ect ect could waffle about that for hours even smiling just thinking of that feeling

I do truly believe love is experienced differently for all of us, I would move heaven and earth itself for people I love, be they family friends or a relationship, 

ok will stop babbling now hugs and thanks for another fantastic topic


----------



## Weirdo890 (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm not sure what love, I just know that I hope I experience. I want to share it with someone I can trust and depend on. Hopefully one day I can experience it. That day might come very soon. I'm hoping it does. :happy:


----------



## Saoirse (Mar 8, 2010)

This song by Gonzo  makes me think of love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryEjm3k6uY0

Love is being where you belong.


----------



## GeorgeNL (Mar 9, 2010)

And when you think the world is cold, when the road you walk feels like it's taking you through an empty dessert. At those moments, I like to play this old Bjork song:

All Is Full Of Love - Bjork
====================

You'll be given love
You'll be taken care of
You'll be given love
You have to trust it

Maybe not from the sources
You have poured yours
Maybe not from the directions
You are staring at

Twist your head around
It's all around you
All is full of love
All around you

All is full of love
You just ain't receiving
All is full of love
Your phone is off the hook
All is full of love
Your doors are all shut
All is full of love!
be the little angel

All is full of love, all is full of love
All is full of love, all is full of love ...

===================


----------



## GeorgeNL (Mar 9, 2010)

Weirdo890 said:


> I'm not sure what love, I just know that I hope I experience. I want to share it with someone I can trust and depend on. Hopefully one day I can experience it. That day might come very soon. I'm hoping it does. :happy:



I've been in that state such a long time... But it ain't that difficult actually. Open your eyes, open your mind, and feel the warmth that people radiate. When you get to meet the person whose warmth makes you happy, tell her. Be honest about your feeling, don't make them up, just be honest and open about your feelings. That's all it takes. Your feeling will touch her, and you'll be amazed about the feelings that rush through your body, once she wraps her arms around you. 

Spring is in the air, get up, shut down your computer. Go find her, and make her day!!!


----------



## spiritangel (Mar 9, 2010)

Saoirse said:


> This song by Gonzo  makes me think of love.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryEjm3k6uY0
> 
> Love is being where you belong.




Oh my but I love the muppets, and that is a perfect song


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 10, 2010)

This story appeared in one of our local papers (Mpls. Star/Tribune) yesterday, March 9th, 2010. This couple clearly has a passion for gardening, but they could never have created such beauty without a deep love for each other. It is evident in the story and in the accompanying slide show. I think that Mrs Ho Ho and I have to track this down and see it for ourselves. 

Having a child together can be the act of a moment, but having the child, raising the child together, seeing that child off to a successful adulthood is probably the deepest and most enduring act of love imaginable. It is hardly less true when the 'child' is a garden, a cause, helping others, or even creating a life together. I have seen many examples of this in our personal lives, amongst friends and family, and right here on these boards.

For those of you who recognize yourselves in this description, know that you are what makes the world bloom.

"Couple Display the Art of Gardening"


----------



## OhLaLaSoSexy (Mar 10, 2010)

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> Ok let me tell you a story...and Ill try not to cry.
> 
> I had a dog. A sweet toy poodle named monique. I had her since birth...as my mother owned her mother. She grew up with me....from age 11 til age 24. She had made several moves between Idaho and California with me...she had grown up with me.
> 
> ...



I just lost my dog coming up on 3 months ago. I had to put him to sleep and it was the hardest thing for me to do. The night before i was to take him to the vet my heart was so broken. I was afraid to sleep because i thought my heart would just...stop because it was in so much pain. i miss him so much;[
I know for sure i loved him.


----------



## superodalisque (Mar 12, 2010)

Plato’s “Ladder of Love” &#8211; The Ascent to Beauty Itself (Symposium)

Well then, she [the goddess Diotima] began, the candidate for this initiation cannot, if his efforts are to be rewarded, begin too early to devote himself to the beauties of the body. First of all, if his preceptor instructs him as he should, he will fall in love with the beauty of one individual body, so that his passion may give life to noble discourse. Next he must consider how nearly related the beauty of any one body is to the beauty of any other, when he will see that if he is to devote himself to loveliness of form it will be absurd to deny that the beauty of each and every body is the same. Having reached this point, he must set himself to be the lover of every lovely body, and bring his passion for the one into due proportion by deeming it of little or of no importance.
Next he must grasp that the beauties of the body are as nothing to the beauties of the soul, so that wherever he meets with spiritual loveliness, even in the husk of an unlovely body, he will find it beautiful enough to fall in love with and to cherish--and beautiful enough to quicken in his heart a longing for such discourse as tends toward the building of a noble nature. And from this he will be led to contemplate the beauty of laws and institutions. And when he discovers how nearly every kind of beauty is akin to every other he will conclude that the beauty of the body is not, after all, of so great moment.
And next, his attention should be diverted from institutions to the sciences, so that he may know the beauty of every kind of knowledge. And thus, by scanning beauty's wide horizon, he will be saved from a slavish and illiberal devotion to the individual loveliness of a single boy, a single man, or a single institution. And, turning his eyes toward the open sea of beauty, he will find in such contemplation the seed of the most fruitful discourse and the loftiest thought, and reap a golden harvest of philosophy, until, confirmed and strengthened, he will come upon one single form of knowledge, the knowledge of the beauty I am about to speak of.
And here, she said, you must follow me as closely as you can.
Whoever has been initiated so far in the mysteries of Love and has viewed all these aspects of the beautiful in due succession, is at last drawing near the final revelation. And now, Socrates, there bursts upon him that wondrous vision which is the very soul of the beauty he has toiled so long for. It is an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades, for such beauty is the same on every hand, the same then as now, here as there, this way as that way, the same to every worshiper as it is to every other.
Nor will his vision of the beautiful take the form of a face, or of hands, or of anything that is of the flesh. It will be neither words, nor knowledge, nor a something that exists in something else, such as a living creature, or the earth, or the heavens, or anything that is--but subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness, while every lovely thing partakes of it in such sort that, however much the parts may wax and wane, it will be neither more nor less, but still the same inviolable whole.
And so, when his prescribed devotion to boyish beauties has carried our candidate so far that the universal beauty dawns upon his inward sight, he is almost within reach of the final revelation. And this is the way, the only way, he must approach, or be led toward, the sanctuary of Love. Starting from individual beauties, the quest for the universal beauty must find him ever mounting the heavenly ladder, stepping from rung to rung--that is, from one to two, and from two to every lovely body, from bodily beauty to the beauty of institutions, from institutions to learning, and from learning in general to the special lore that pertains to nothing but the beautiful itself--until at last he comes to know what beauty is.
And if, my dear Socrates, Diotima went on, man's life is ever worth the living, it is when he has attained this vision of the very soul of beauty. And once you have seen it, you will never be seduced again by the charm of gold, of dress, of comely boys, or lads just ripening to manhood; you will care nothing for the beauties that used to take your breath away and kindle such a longing in you, and many others like you, Socrates, to be always at the side of the beloved and feasting your eyes upon him, so that you would be content, if it were possible, to deny yourself the grosser necessities of meat and drink, so long as you were with him.
* But if it were given to man to gaze on beauty's very self--unsullied, unalloyed, and freed from the mortal taint that haunts the frailer loveliness of flesh and blood--if, I say, it were given to man to see the heavenly beauty face to face, would you call his, she asked me, an unenviable life, whose eyes had been opened to the vision, and who had gazed upon it in true contemplation until it had become his own forever?
And remember, she said, that it is when he looks upon beauty's visible presentment, and only then, that a man will be quickened with the true, and not the seeming, virtue--for it is virtue's self that quickens him, not virtue's semblance. And when he has brought forth and reared this perfect virtue, he shall be called the friend of god, and if ever it is given to man to put on immortality, it shall be given to him* (Symposium 210a-212b).


----------



## Lovelyone (Mar 12, 2010)

I enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. I once wrote a blog about love. I won't bore you with the whole thing but the last two paragraphs say it for me.

" I am not usually an openly loving individual...that is to say that I can SAY "I love you"--but at times it is awkward for me. I have a lot of doubt that some of the people who I say it to would actually return the sentiment (which makes it hard for me to say it in the first place). It is then that I remind myself that REAL love is unconditional. You say it and feel it with full meaning and without needing to hear it in return. I tell myself that if love has conditions, I don't think I want any part of it. I am hoping that the people in my life already KNOW that I love them from me having shown them time and time again. I hope that they realize that even through hard times and times of despair...I have loved them. I pray for them, want them in my life, think of them often, wish only kindnesses and happiness upon them, and it is my heart's desire that they feel the same way toward me. Its not a requirement, only a sincere hope--simply because I will continue to love them even if they do not feel the same way about me.
I realize that not everyone loves the same way. The writer Mignon McLaughlin said, "the hardest lesson learned: that people have only their kind of love to give, not our kind." I believe this to be true...and also to be the main reason why a lot of people don't feel loved. It's not that they aren't loved, its just that they don't recognize another persons kind of love. Its been said that the Inuits have more than 100 ways to say "snow" I think that is the same thing with the word "Love"...there are as many different meanings to the word as there are people who say it. "

That's just my own little 2-cents.


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 12, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> Platos Ladder of Love  The Ascent to Beauty Itself (Symposium)
> 
> And remember, she said, that it is when he looks upon beauty's visible presentment, and only then, that a man will be quickened with the true, and not the seeming, virtue--for it is virtue's self that quickens him, not virtue's semblance. And when he has brought forth and reared this perfect virtue, he shall be called the friend of god, and if ever it is given to man to put on immortality, it shall be given to him[/B] (Symposium 210a-212b).



Thanks, SuperO, for helping me recall a too-long neglected memory. I did struggle through the Dialogues at a point in my life when I was by no means ready for them. In fact, that statement applies to nearly everything I 'learned', or thought I had learned, up to graduating from college and 'finishing' (hah!) my 'education'.

That education was just beginning, is still going strong at age 72, and will drive me, torture me, and delight me to the day I die (and I hope, long after.)

There is an old metaphor about the uselessness - even harm - of rain falling on too-dry ground. Until the soil is at least wet enough to receive serious quantities of rain, it just runs off and creates mischief. So too, certainly, with education, and hence the concept of an 'education' being called sophomoric. Facts have been presented and duly memorized - even regurgitated. But how little learning has actually occurred!

I was a young man, once. In some ways I still am. I enjoy being young at heart and with a body more capable than many of far fewer years. I do NOT appreciate feeling young when faced with the realization that I am still sophomoric at times. At least, there is now a portion of me than can judge such occasions.

Perhaps, if I have sufficient years remaining, that part of me will lead me back to the lessons over which I skipped - including the Dialogues.

I will comment further on one sentence in your post. "for it is virtue's self that quickens him, not virtue's semblance." It reminded me of a metaphor on reality. I'll use quotes here, even though I know I'm not quoting exactly.

"Knowledge is a polygram of an infinite numper of vertices, inscribed in the circle of reality, and contacting it, therefore, ONLY at an infinite number of points." We strive to grasp virtue's self, even as we strive to grasp reality. 

We can probably never attain to either, but what a gallant struggle!


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 12, 2010)

Lovelyone said:


> It is then that I remind myself that REAL love is unconditional. You say it and feel it with full meaning and without needing to hear it in return. I tell myself that if love has conditions, I don't think I want any part of it. I am hoping that the people in my life already KNOW that I love them from me having shown them time and time again. I hope that they realize that even through hard times and times of despair...I have loved them. I pray for them, want them in my life, think of them often, wish only kindnesses and happiness upon them, and it is my heart's desire that they feel the same way toward me. Its not a requirement, only a sincere hope--simply because I will continue to love them even if they do not feel the same way about me.
> 
> That's just my own little 2-cents.
> 
> [/COLOR] [/COLOR]



Very nice! Makes me want to read the rest of your blog. Have you ever read C.S. Lewis' "The Four Loves"? What you describe is very like the unconditional love referred to in his book (and in many other writings) as Agape. Supposedly, it is so pure that only God can shed that benevolence on we critters below.

Well, I don't know about that. The ancient questions*** (benevolence, impotence) still go unanswered. I guess that is part of being an agnostic, though still a hopeful, searching one. But, here and there amongst the hatred and vehemence so prevalent, one does get the occasional glimpse of Agape as pure as my old eyes can recognize. Someone quite near me is like that. She sheds her love-light everywhere, though when caught in her beam you're sure it's meant just for you. It takes the form of encouraging, helping, giving, donating, working along side the worker, playing with the joyful, taking delight in all things.

That person is Mrs Ho Ho. But I see that same spirit in many Dimensions (and non-Dimensions) folks as well.


***"Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable? Then he is not omnipotent, but impotent. Is he able to prevent evil, but unwilling? Then he is malevolent. Is he both willing and able to prevent evil? Then whence comes evil? Is he unwilling and unable? Then why call him God?" -- Epictetus


----------



## AnnMarie (Mar 13, 2010)

This is a really great, positive, encouraging, and supportive thread - proof it's possible. 

Thanks for the bumping, HoHo.


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Feb 22, 2012)

Friends -

Mrs Ho Ho and I have been married nearly 22 years now. Today is her birthday (I posted on that topic earlier.) While she readies herself for the night, I have just time to bring this to your attention.

We wrote our own vows (mostly) but borrowed from here and there as we found others to help us express what was in our hearts. The result was rendered in calligraphy by a dear friend and has hung, framed, over our bed ever since.

While we never forget our vows, we almost forgot the origin of one of the major sources. I spent the last few days digging in my archives, on-line, in old e-mail, and at Dimensions and finally found most of it. I had sent it on to a young couple contemplating marriage. I preface the piece with my comments to them. 

I am encoding the various sections in color: black for these comments, green for the comments sent to the couple mentioned, red for the text of the article, purple for the section we excerpted.

From our current perspective, the article is corny, rather over the top, and rather awkward. I can, and has, been said more succinctly. But I will tell you this: it works. If you are writing your own vows, do so in your own words and follow your hearts. But you may still find wisdom in the thoughts of Dr. Eidelman.

Conrad, please note that we first read the article in a 1985 BBW magazine. I cannot find it in your archives. You may want to restore it from the text which follows.

Ho Ho Tai

Dear (friends contemplating marriage)

I'm sending you the text of the article "I love you truly - or do I?" by Jack Eidelman, M.D. (BBW Magazine, February 1985).

Conrad never got back to me, so I'm typing it out. In the section "How to know when your love comes along", we excerpted substantial sections and incorporated into our wedding vows. The vows contain other, more personal, statements as well, and we did modify the text of this article to suit our needs. However, the framed calligraphy which has been hanging over our bed since day one is entirely excerpted from this section. Other than deleting certain parts of it, the framed text is unmodified. Much of it is tied closely to the way we worked together - the partnership - first, with Ann supporting me and my ideas, and then I supporting hers. This section will probably mean the most to the two of you also.

In my opinion, the two of you, individually and as a couple, have long since moved beyond most of what is discussed in the rest of the article. While the article was published in 1985, the ideas draw on the whole Humanistic Psych movement of the '70s. People were searching for a relationship model somewhere between the old 'white picket fence' and 2.2 children, and the 'sex and free love of the '70s. Still, the material in "Love by any other name . . ." might be of value to many of today's young couples who are not accustomed to discovering themselves via introspection.

I will admit that there are times, and ways, in which I fall short of the vows drawn from this material. I have been caught short on several occasions, criticizing Ann's approach to her professional or personal life (and, yes, as close as we are, each of us does maintain some separate interests and social contacts.) We struggle to maintain common interests at times, and to find value for ourselves in the other's interests. 

Perhaps even more than the vows themselves, we fall back on the 'Partners, Friends & Lovers" triad and I don't think that there was ever a time when that three legged stool didn't remain stable.

Frustrations do arise at times, but these are usually directed to elements in our external lives impinging on the personal. We are as careful as we can be not to redirect that frustration at each other. But when we sense that the pressures are accumulating, well, honestly, the best thing is a hug, a cuddle, a kiss, and 'I love you'. And that's a phrase which, around here, is never casual, never trite, never worn from overuse. It remains as shiny as Sterling silver, and as meaningful today as when it was first uttered between us.


I Love You - or Do I? Jack Eidelman, M.D. (BBW Feb. 1985)

Is it really love?

We are told that "love makes the world go round". Love is constantly referred to in songs, poetry, books and movies. In marriage vows we have the "promise to love". In fact, we hear the word "love" so often in our lives, one would think that people who say they have it know what it is.

How then, can we explain the millions divorces, unhappy marriages, love starved individuals, children in trouble, and multitudes of sad people? all too frequently, the therapist hears John say, "Yes, I love my wife," only to observe that John ignores her, treats her like a piece of furniture, or reacts to her with contempt. Similarly, Mrs. Smith mah say that she loves her daughter, Mary. A few moments later, however, Mary comments, "My mother doesn't care anything about me", and explains why she feels this way. Helen states rather emphatically that she loves her husband, but goes on to say that she has been pushing him away sexually for a long time.

As the old adage goes, "actions speak louder than words." Eliza Doolittle implored Henry Higgens, "don't talk of love, show me!" Unfortunately, what people too often show is not love, but behavior that can be quite the opposite. Leo Buscalia, the lecturer and author who talks to students and community groups frequently about love and the process of developing relationships, cites a cause of this phenomenon in his book, Love: "Most people never learn to love at all." Psychiatrists frequently see people like this, who also are unable to let themselves be loved. Many grew up feeling rejected, with negative self-image and filled with anger at their world. They are distrustful of others and unable to let anyone get close to them emotionally. People who cannot accept love cannot give love either.

A love by any other name.

If you ask any group of people what "love" means to them, you will receive an amazing array of answers. While a fair number will mention such words as caring or sharing or giving, many answer "I don't know" or "a good feeling", or "being happy with somebody", or "you need them". Often, people seem to be in a fog as they grope for a response. They have no idea what love is, or what a loving relationship really involves. Part of the problem lies in the fact that people tend to think of love as a noun, a rigid object, when it is better to view it as an action verb, loving.

Similarly, people may murmur explanations that provide fascinating glimpses of what goes on behind the mask of "love". When Judy said "I love him", she may be actually telling us that she needs him, depends n him, can't get along without him. Dependency, which often exists on an unconscious level, is probably the most common condition confused with love. The lack of realization about this underlying foundation for a relationship helps to explain why so many people stay in what seem to be intolerable life situations.

Sometimes the wood is used to control and manipulate. "I'll 'love' you if you're good", or "I'll love you if you give me sex" are attitudes that can turn love into a commodity, to be bought, sold, or used in a bargaining process. Frequently, as in the latter example, sex is confused with love. The words "lover" and "let's make love" have more to do with sex than a truly loving relationship.

Psychologists use the term "need love" to describe an immature, or taking kind of "love" marked b jealousy, argumentativeness, manipulation, making demands, and one thinking only of his or her own needs rather than those of his or her partner. Another sentiment often confused with love is infatuation, which like "love at first sight", is superficial attraction that can fade away into nothing. When it occurs, we tend to deny ourselves the ability to be objective about the other person's personality, problems, patterns of living, and the heart throb does not stand the test of time. In a similar way, when "love is blind" we are unable to see the other person objectively. We do see the results - in heartaches, unwanted pregnancies, divorces, and so on. Likewise, we are often unable to see ourselves, and to appreciate our own failure to be realistic. Too often, we are in love with an idealized image, only to be disappointed when we become aware that the object of our love is only human.

"Falling in love" can be a form of immature love if you are concerned only about your feelings, fantasies, and need for the other person. If it is a a euphemism for learning to love, or developing a loving relationship which will allow the couple to grow in love, then it is a mature and fully rewarding love.

How to know when your "love comes along"


Mature love is other-person centered. It is giving rather than taking behavior. People who truly want the real thing might follow the procedure expressed in the song lyric "Getting to know you, getting to know all about you". If what you feel is mature love, you will be able to say the following to your mate: "I respect you. I will be mindful to your needs, your ideas, your feelings, and what you are trying to accomplish. I want to share with you not only the joys of life, but the heartaches. I will help you be you, and help you fulfill your potential and your life goals, and help you grow and become more and more a free person, vibrant and happy".

"I will listen to you with my heart and my mind and never merely with my ears. I want to share with you the feelings that you experience. I love you as you are and not as the idealized image that I would like you to be. I love you just because you are you. I will always be there and you will know I am there, and you will know that I will never let you down, and that you can always depend on me. I will do my best to be a loving person, to be truly alive and interested in both our worlds so that we can together share the never-ending experiences of life in a joyful and meaningful way."

"Can I become a loving person?"

Both psychologist Erich Fromm, in his book, "The Art of Loving", and Leo Buscaglia, in his book, "Love", point out that love can be studied, learned, and then practiced. By reading such works and then applying a little imagination and creative behavior, you will be pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to become a loving person - loving to your parents, your children, your friends, and your partner.

There is a chapter in Jan Gardner's delightful and humorous book, "If you love him, bite him", entitled "Fill his bathtub with violets". While I don't recommend that you run down to the florist and come back with a car full of flowers, the idea is appropriate, creative and thoughtful. There is much that we can do to behave lovingly, to show and give the kind of love that makes another person want to love us in return.


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Mar 6, 2012)

Friends -

If we were to re-write our marriage vows, I think this statement of the Health Partners Credo would suffice. It could also be taken as a guide to more productive relationships, from communication on this board to world politics, and everything in between.



R.E.S.P.E.C.T.​

R Reliable
I will be dependable and follow
through on my responsibilities

E	Excellence
I will go above and beyond to 
make a positive difference each day

S	Show Appreciation
I will value and acknowledge
your contributions

P	Positive Attitude
I will be friendly, optimistic
and helpful

E	Embrace Differenced
I will honor and learn from your
uniqueness and experiences

C	Communicate
I will listen, seek to understand,
and share information

T	Teamwork 
I will support you, and together,
we will succeed​


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 28, 2012)

Folks -

While engaged in some menial task, my mind was drifting off, considering metaphors for a good relationship. I don't know why this didn't occur to me in this context before, but M.C. Escher's "Drawing Hands" is perfect! Over many years, Mrs Ho Ho and I have been "drawing each other" into our current existence - leading and following each other to growth, to maturity, teaching each other to live by living, to love by loving. In the process, we create our own little universe as well. I would like to find, or create, a picture of Drawing Hands, set against some sort of Hubble shot of a select portion of the universe.

I know someone able to do that, if I can talk her into it.


I know that quite a few of you are in relationships like that. I'd love to hear your stories. 

View attachment artchive escher_hands - 1.jpg


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm bumping this one so it doesn't get lost in the mix. Do tell y'all.


----------



## CPProp (Dec 31, 2012)

Being there to embrace and encourage the happy times and provide rock solid support during the sad or bad times whether you live together or thousands of miles apart, whilst distance can sometimes be an inconvenience it is not a barrier.


----------



## Saoirse (Dec 31, 2012)

love is when they help you to the toilet, hold back your hair while you're upchucking and they still want to sleep in the same bed as you after one of those nights. At least that's what my friend said about her then- fiance when he did just that after her bachlorette pup crawl (omg what a night!) They are now happily married and raising their first kid!


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 23, 2013)

We were at a concert recently, this one given by the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra (SPCO). One of the pieces featured was selections from 'Das Knaben Wunderhorn' by Gustav Mahler. I was somewhere between being taken by the (English) lyrics, and laughing out loud. The poem is Lost Effort and really does fit in this thread (What is Love?) rather than the Favorite Poems thread.

Lost effort
Language: English


She:
Laddie, let's go out!
Shall we? To look at our lambs?
Come, dear laddie!
Come, I beg you!

He:
Silly lassie,
I won't go with you!

She:
You want maybe a bit to nibble?
Fetch yourself something out of my pocket!
Fetch it, dear laddie!
Fetch it, I bet you!

He:
Silly lassie,
I don't want to nibble anything! Nothing!

She:
Ah, shall I give you my heart?
so you'll always think of me?
Take it! Dear laddie,
Take it, I beg you!

He:
Silly lassie,
I don't want it!

The poor lassie! When the bait doesn't attract the fish, jump in after it.

I can't say that it was that easy with Mrs. Ho Ho (and incidentally we celebrate our 25th anniversary this Monday 11/25/2013.

Some of you know our story: working together, the visit, the letter, the phone call, and we're working on 25 years of "happy ever-aftering". But it wasn't that easy, not at all like the poem above. When I realized that I had fallen in love with my old friend (and she with me) I panicked. I was too old for her! I had been her boss! What did she see in me? What could I give her?

She didn't want diamonds and I couldn't afford diamonds anyway. I emptied my pockets of all the pretty stones I had collected over a lifetime and arrayed them before her. She chose intelligence, imagination, humor, loyalty and love. Then she said "and I'll take you too!"

While most of the stones weren't that pretty, she had seen some of them before - the first three when we worked together. She grasped that the other two existed from some writing that I had shared (written during a very lonely time).

And here we are, sitting across from each other, ready to head off to bed, and still very much in love.


----------



## superodalisque (Nov 25, 2013)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> We were at a concert recently, this one given by the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra (SPCO). One of the pieces featured was selections from 'Das Knaben Wunderhorn' by Gustav Mahler. I was somewhere between being taken by the (English) lyrics, and laughing out loud. The poem is Lost Effort and really does fit in this thread (What is Love?) rather than the Favorite Poems thread.
> 
> Lost effort
> Language: English
> ...



all she wanted is what everyone wants, if they'll admit it --real love. i think the definition of love is exactly what you've written about her in this thread over time. whenever the word comes up it is she that you think of. now that my friend is LOVE.

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! much love to both of you!


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> all she wanted is what everyone wants, if they'll admit it --real love. i think the definition of love is exactly what you've written about her in this thread over time. whenever the word comes up it is she that you think of. now that my friend is LOVE.
> 
> HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! much love to both of you!



She is the canvas upon which I paint, and the inspiration to paint as well. And the paint? Perhaps that is the love - and we both get pretty messy with it.

I'm adding this short response just to keep the thread alive. I want to post more on the all-important subject of partnership.


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Dec 4, 2013)

Ho Ho Tai said:


> She is the canvas upon which I paint, and the inspiration to paint as well. And the paint? Perhaps that is the love - and we both get pretty messy with it.
> 
> I'm adding this short response just to keep the thread alive. I want to post more on the all-important subject of partnership.



The rings which Mrs Ho Ho and I have carried for 25 years are plain gold bands on the outside but rife with engraving and meaning on the inside. Principal are the initials 'PFL', standing for 'Partners, Friends and Lovers'. If you are familiar with my previous posts, my first marriage lasted over 25 years (I have had two 'silver anniversaries' now, so I'm not exactly new to this business.) That relationship had its happy moments, and produced two fine sons, but lacked partnership. The days were filled with contention and became very unpleasant - especially when the issue of out of town employment arose.

Meanwhile, Mrs Ho Ho and I worked together for some years. The relationship went from boss and employee to full partnership. We both too delight in understanding the concepts and we took delight in furthering the other's career. When we no longer worked together, we remained friends, having the partnership basis to build on.

I can't stress the nature of partnership enough. For me, the perfect metaphor are the players in a small classical ensemble - a trio, quartet, piano quartet or greater. The players know each other's chops the way the players in a long-standing jazz group do. There is no conductor. The music itself guides them, along with their long standing and deep partnership.

We have been fortunate over the years to have a couple who are well-known to the arts community: Jorja Fleezanis and Michael Steinberg. She was first violin for the MN Orchestra for many years. He was a musicologist and music writer of great fluency and penetrating insights. I don't know if they actually played music together but music filled their lives and every note carried the messages of PFL,

Steinberg wrote three major books around the many concert notes he had written: one on the symphony, one on chamber music and one on choral music. (the reference is to Amazon's summary).

I have these books. When some dear friends got married recently I couldn't think of a better present for them. Here are the notes I send, along with the books.

George, Cecilia-

Michael Steinberg and Jorja Fleezanis were married for 20 years; she as concertmaster of the MN Orchestra and he as a music critic and program annotator for many symphonies. While he was not generally noted as a musician, I believe that music sustained their relationship and their love for each other. I fell in love with Jorja many years ago, sitting in the front (cheap) rows, watching her dynamic style, her energy, and her musicianship. I fell in love with Mr. Steinberg through his writings and annotations only a few years ago. Their story is well told in this piece entitled "Shadows and Light"

(readers - and I hope that there is at least one of you - I hope you pursue the story at the above Shadows and Light link. It is one of the most beautiful things you will ever read.)

I bought all three of his books and knew that I would have to give them to you too.

If Mrs Ho Ho and I had garnered the wisdom of this couple when we were first married, I think our marriage might have gone pretty much as it did. I think we unconsciously followed the same plan they did (even though we have been married three years longer than they were.)

If you will accept wisdom from an old married couple, it might go like this:

Make Love
Make love all the time.
Make love in the kitchen when you make breakfast. Be aware of the presence of the other. Leave room but casually bump into each other too. Give each other a hug every time.
Be eager to take on those difficult household tasks (I set this down more as advice to me than to you.)
Make love when you each come home from work, asking each other about the day, and listening carefully. Greet each other with a hug.
Make love when you go out to concerts or the movies. It's amazing how much love can be conveyed by holding hands.
Make love on the trail, walking or biking. Always be aware of the other. Don't omit the 'kissin' trees'.

Make love when you make music together. George, I hope you play, or learn to play, an instrument - something that will blend with Cecilia's violin. That coordinating of hearts, minds and strings is one of the most intimate experiences on the planet.

And when you make love, make music too. Surround yourselves with the music and poetry in your hearts. Let it fill all the spaces in the room and between you.

Last of all, make love when you go to sleep at night, drift off holding each other or at least, holding hands. That can be such a wonderful, comforting experience. My last thought as I drift off is very often "How did this wonderful woman ever come into my life?" and Mrs Ho Ho, unlikely as it sounds, often has the same thought.

We hope you have a VERY long love affair!
Ho Ho Tai
Mrs Ho Ho


----------



## CPProp (Dec 7, 2013)

Love is a short word with long emotions and for me can be sumed up simply as:

*L*earning to adapt to another
*O*pening arms without questions
*V*aluing anothers worth
*E*xpressing emotion with out fear


----------



## Ms Charlotte BBW (Dec 7, 2013)

This is what true love is... (grab some tissues before watching)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNfvuJr9164


----------



## ODFFA (Dec 7, 2013)

Ms Charlotte BBW said:


> This is what true love is... (grab some tissues before watching)



I agree, that captures it perfectly ^.^ 

In addition to this, I've never heard it worded better than in this movie quote. Maybe that's just because this is how I love, and this is always at the forefront of my mind when I love (even in non-romantic contexts), but to me, _this_ really is what love is....

"We need a witness to our lives. There's a billion people on the planet... I mean, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything. The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things... all of it, all the time, every day. You're saying 'Your life will not go unnoticed because I will notice it. Your life will not go un-witnessed because I will be your witness'."


----------



## Ms Charlotte BBW (Dec 7, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> "We need a witness to our lives. There's a billion people on the planet... I mean, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you're promising to care about everything. The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things... all of it, all the time, every day. You're saying 'Your life will not go unnoticed because I will notice it. Your life will not go un-witnessed because I will be your witness'."



Truly beautiful. Everyone has their own way of loving...and regardless of what or how that may be, it is still a beautiful and sacred thing to behold.


----------



## Ho Ho Tai (Oct 31, 2014)

Mrs Ho Ho and me. Next year well celebrate our 25th Wedding Anniversary. We still look back through our lives to our courtship days, finding many diamonds, but no rust and still wonder how all this came to be.

The many lovers out there probably have their own songs. We have this one and a number of others. The curious thing is that, while we are deeply affected by them - even now - most of them have little to do with us, our circumstances or our courtship.

So why are they so affecting?

Discussing this the other night, we came up with this metaphor. People about to fall in love are 'tuned' to the experience, the way an acoustic guitar is tuned but not yet played. That guitar can hang from a peg while another guitar is played in the same room. The sounding board and strings will vibrate in harmony with the other active guitar - a faint echo.

So too, people with eyes for each other will sense resonance with the songs, poems or activities of other lovers. This resonance will well up within them until they are ready to sing their own songs or write their own poems.

A rather rough-hewn metaphor but one that answered our own question when it occurred to us.

Here's a link to her song.

Joan Baez - "Diamonds and Rust"
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MSwBM_CbyY"]"Diamonds and Rust"[/ame]


----------



## socrates74 (Nov 22, 2016)

A song by Haddaway, so..........baby don't hurt me.


----------



## Cheri (Nov 22, 2016)

What is Love 

View attachment quotes-love-in-its-essence_2923-0.png


----------

