# Contrast in a Relationship



## Edens_heel (Apr 9, 2009)

This question came into mind earlier tonight as I was looking over some of the recent rep and posts on the FA appreciation thread (aka - the prison bait thread) and a thought came into my mind (a rare occasion when it has nothing to do with my writing or crackpot Lost theories). Now, I'm somewhat pasty, olive-tone, and I noticed at random that most of my rep (not all, but a larger-than-average portion) for the recent torso shots were coming from some of the black women on this board. And to be clear, that is definitely not a bad thing (I'm in a relationship with a black girl on the boards!), but it made me think about the question of contrast and how it relates to the BBW's and FA's on the site.

How many of you feel that there is something to this? Do you find that if you are a BBW that you are more inclined, on average, to be drawn to men of a radically different size and shape than you? Or the FA's and FFA's, do you feel the same? What about in terms of dating inter racially? Do any of you who feel a desire for such contrast between body types also notice that you tend to favour a skin colour different from your own? Or location, if contrast is served through accents, dialects, upbringing, etc. 

This is more than an opposites attract sort of thing. I do notice it myself - I can find many people of many different sizes and skin colours to be attractive, but I do tend to see myself drawn more to darker skin tones and plumper bodies, two things which I do not have in the least (as has been made pretty obvious by my pic posts as of late).

So thoughts? Anyone riding the contrast train with us?


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## Tau (Apr 9, 2009)

Its an interesting thought. I tend to get hit on and go out with skinny white guys - that's just how its worked out so far. I don't have a racial or size preference when it comes to significant others, its always all about how moved i am by the individual and their various quirks and behaviours. I do love a pretty pair of eyes, or a sexy mouth, or veiny arms :eat2: but as a package men who are strong, physically and emotionally, responsible, secure, intelligent - guys who make me feel taken care of - are what I'm after. I think for most women the visual is fun and all but most chicks arent about the looks. Evolution picked up on that and this is why I think you find there are more ridiculously good looking women than there are men in the world  Also, just as an end to this very long waffle, I rarely see big couples where both the man and the woman are fat - I've seen it more on this forum than anywhere else. Hardly ever in real life. I've personally never been hit on by a big guy - NEVER! I find large men attractive but the ones I've encountered so far fat is not the way forward for them - one actually went so far as to tell me he found fat girls repulsive - and they go out of their way to pursue thin girls.


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## furious styles (Apr 9, 2009)

i don't usually go for the muscular, hairy white girls. so i think you've got something here.

honestly though i'm attracted to a fairly wide range of ladies but i do think i have an inter-racial bias. i find something so sublime about exotic features .. long black hair and darker skin tones, it just does things to me. goooood things.


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## Cors (Apr 9, 2009)

I am a small FFA who finds the contrast a huge turn-on. 

I also tend to date outside of my race, though I don't consciously try to. I am considered a minority here so it is difficult anyway. Asian girls also tend to be incredibly tiny and I prefer my partner to be at least twice my size. It doesn't help that many Asian lesbians are deeply closeted and rather conservative, more so than queer people of other ethnicities. I can definitely appreciate beautiful women of all races though.


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## TallFatSue (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm 6ft tall and over 450lb, and my husband is 5ft10 and 175lb, so I'm slightly taller and over 2½ times his weight. I'm also 2 years older. We're certainly a study in physical contrasts, but that's not what brought us together. We were attracted by each other's personalities and general outlooks on life. We're both strong-willed and opinionated (the sparks do fly, but in a good way) and we both have stable rewarding careers.

In a very different sense of the term, though, an opposite did attract. Art didn't like fat girls when we first met, and I probably weighed as much as his 3 previous girlfriends combined. But he said my personality intrigued him, so despite himself, he began to fall in love with the fattest girl he ever met! Yes indeedy, I was just about as much of a physical opposite to his pre-conceived notions as possible, and the poor fool had no idea how to deal with my size. Luckily before long he realized that the very idea of dating someone so outside his realm of experience and someone as fat as I was seemed so crazy it just might work. And it did. Art learned how to handle a very tall very fat girlfriend, we were married, and now he embraces my fat every chance he can. :smitten:


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 9, 2009)

I find contrast hot when it comes to guys (not so much with girls) but this applies mainly to height and weight. I prefer guys that are taller than me, and usually thin or a little muscular. However, I tend to find white guys attractive. I have exceptions to this, but generally speaking, it's what I find myself attracted to most of the time.


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## olwen (Apr 10, 2009)

I've been with and dated all races. The contrast doesn't do anything for me, and I don't care about it. What I don't like is when non-black guys make it a point to say mildly racist things in a sexual way without warning and expect me to be okay with that. I am not okay with that. I'd like to have the chance to have a discussion about it before the clothes come off. I've gotten these comments from whites, hispanics, and indians. It's almost more offensive comming from hispanics and indians because they are often the same complexion as me. Then I know it's that they expect me to act ghetto if only in bed, and that's just not me. It's something I'm becoming kind of leary about actually since it seems to be a common theme among SM people I meet lately. 

Contrast in shape doesn't do anything for me either. I wonder sometimes too if it would if I were thin....


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## hello2u (May 7, 2009)

olwen said:


> I've been with and dated all races. The contrast doesn't do anything for me, and I don't care about it. What I don't like is when non-black guys make it a point to say mildly racist things in a sexual way without warning and expect me to be okay with that. I am not okay with that. I'd like to have the chance to have a discussion about it before the clothes come off. I've gotten these comments from whites, hispanics, and indians. It's almost more offensive comming from hispanics and indians because they are often the same complexion as me. Then I know it's that they expect me to act ghetto if only in bed, and that's just not me. It's something I'm becoming kind of leary about actually since it seems to be a common theme among SM people I meet lately.
> 
> Contrast in shape doesn't do anything for me either. I wonder sometimes too if it would if I were thin....




Sorry to hear that you have had those kinds of experience when race is involved, I promise you, we (white men) are not all like that.

cheers.


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## Tooz (May 7, 2009)

furious styles said:


> so sublime about *exotic* features



You know, that might rub some the wrong way. I don't know that people like to be alienated with a term like that.

JUST SAYIN' MMKAY.


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## Captain Save (May 7, 2009)

This might be complicated, but here goes. My parents are both very reserved in nature; obnoxious stereotypically black behavior was simply not allowed when I was growing up. What I look for in a relationship is an extension of that upbringing; I'm moving quickly in the other direction the minute I see cheap beer, cigarettes, gold teeth, etc. Same for a woman who exhibits any negative stereotypes with clothing, public conduct, style, religious piety, attitude, etc. A pale complexion compared to my own might be nice, but not a really big factor. Race, in and of itself, is not a factor at all; as long as we are honest and respectful in the beginning we can ease into good natured humor at each other's expense and not take each other too seriously.


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## furious styles (May 7, 2009)

Tooz said:


> You know, that might rub some the wrong way. I don't know that people like to be alienated with a term like that.
> 
> JUST SAYIN' MMKAY.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 7, 2009)

I'm a man; she's a woman. That's contrast enough. :smitten:


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## Jon Blaze (May 7, 2009)

furious styles said:


>


HAHAHA!


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## Jon Blaze (May 7, 2009)

I'm not too focused on size in regards to contrast, but the idea of people with different builds getting close does make me curious at times. Like the BBW/muscular guy contrast: The thought sounds kinda hot... :wubu: lol

As for race/ethnicity? Nope. I'm a true all arounder here.


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## olwen (May 7, 2009)

hello2u said:


> Sorry to hear that you have had those kinds of experience when race is involved, I promise you, we (white men) are not all like that.
> 
> cheers.



Ha. Yes, I know. Just saying I don't like it when it happens.


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## kayrae (May 7, 2009)

I like tall, white, skinny boys. I don't think it has anything to do with me being into the contrast though.


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## AshleyEileen (May 8, 2009)

furious styles said:


>



PLEASE REP HIM FOR ME!!!11!1!1!!11!


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## mergirl (May 8, 2009)

I have absolutely no racial preferences and i'm not sure the fact i like fat people is a contrast thing for me because i know i would like them just as much if i were fat too. Though i have noticed that i dont fancy people who look kinna like me..i'm not sure whether that is more to do with opposites attracting or self loathing.  At the moment i am into blonde, white in the shade + Lobster red in the sun scottish ladies only cause i am with one, though if GD was of any other colour/race thats the kinna coulour/race of lady i would be into. 
Though..i am VERY curious as to what acting 'ghetto' in the bedroom involves and i'm wondering if its something i could get away with.. OLWEN --EXPLAINATION!!! Also, how shit that people have behaved that way towards you. (i am too lazy to 'go advanced' to put a wee red angry face..but just picture him in your minds eye) x


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## Ivy (May 8, 2009)

yep! i love skinny dudes. the skinnier the better. :wubu: 

also, i've dated more than my fair share of really athletic frat boys. as far as the way that i dress, the things i like, and the types of activities i enjoy.. i couldn't be any further from being someone who would fit in with that sort of crowd. yet somehow, i've dated a kind of embarrassing amount of that type of guy. opposites totally attract.


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## exile in thighville (May 8, 2009)

i too enjoy tall skinny white boys


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## stan_der_man (May 8, 2009)

Other than being attracted to fat girls in particular, I'm with the ones who find a variety of physical features attractive whether it be skin or hair colour, body shape or whatever. To me having common interests and compatible temperament with a partner is most important.


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## LillyBBBW (May 8, 2009)

Interesting question you have there EH, one that forces me to think. I've had negative experiences with complimenting black men. I've done so in the past and I found often enough that the experience was unpleasant. Among alllll the compliments they received, mine gets singled out with a barbed reply like, "thanks but I'm taken." As if! Or I get a dirty PM I wouldn't read out loud to a dog. Of course it's not everbody but it has happened often enough to implant some aprehension in the recesses of my brain without ever really realzing it. It's not a deliberate decision not to compliment black men, it has been more an automatic response of not wanting to give the wrong idea. I don't seem to have that inhibition complimenting white men. I've never been promised soiled underwear in my mailbox in response so I've existed with the assumption that it's safe to do so. It has nothing to do with finding one more attractive than the other though.


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## HottiMegan (May 8, 2009)

I'm 4 inches taller and nearly 200lbs heavier than my husband but we usually just laugh about our differences in physical appearance. He and I are like one creature with two different bodies. We are so much alike it's kind of scary. 
I have only ever been with him but i have been attracted to all sorts of different guys. I think attractions has an indescribable vibe regardless of looks or differences.


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## olwen (May 8, 2009)

mergirl said:


> I have absolutely no racial preferences and i'm not sure the fact i like fat people is a contrast thing for me because i know i would like them just as much if i were fat too. Though i have noticed that i dont fancy people who look kinna like me..i'm not sure whether that is more to do with opposites attracting or self loathing.  At the moment i am into blonde, white in the shade + Lobster red in the sun scottish ladies only cause i am with one, though if GD was of any other colour/race thats the kinna coulour/race of lady i would be into.
> Though..i am VERY curious as to what acting 'ghetto' in the bedroom involves and i'm wondering if its something i could get away with.. OLWEN --EXPLAINATION!!! Also, how shit that people have behaved that way towards you. (i am too lazy to 'go advanced' to put a wee red angry face..but just picture him in your minds eye) x



In some places in this country interracial dating is still a serious no-no so sex with a black person becomes taboo and by extension black culture (whatever that is) becomes relegated to some caricature of a gansta rapper or a hoochie mama. Some people are turned on by that and they want you to act accordingly.


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## Captain Save (May 8, 2009)

olwen said:


> In some places in this country interracial dating is still a serious no-no so sex with a black person becomes taboo and by extension black culture (whatever that is) becomes relegated to some caricature of a gansta rapper or a hoochie mama. Some people are turned on by that and they want you to act accordingly.



That might be why it's such a popular theme in porn; I've never really understood its appeal. I can also say from experience that it causes problems in dating when individuals are just not able to fit in to this caricature of behavior. Are such individuals left with no real choice but to find a racial opposite?


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 8, 2009)

Tau said:


> Its an interesting thought. I tend to get hit on and go out with skinny white guys - that's just how its worked out so far. I don't have a racial or size preference when it comes to significant others, its always all about how moved i am by the individual and their various quirks and behaviours.



Let me ask you something- do you think it is any easier when those guys are rejected time and time again because the women they pursue cannot fathom why men who are so opposite them want them?

I'm one of those guys, and it frustrates me to no end that it is considered to be taboo still in a lot of communities. Where I have lived, most of the women who have been BBW tend to be mixed race, Latino, or African-American, and in so many cases have this mental block about it. It is a problem that I think will be eroded over time.

So the next time one of those "skinny white guys" talks to you, think about how he might feel  Maybe, just maybe, you might find something


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## olwen (May 8, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> That might be why it's such a popular theme in porn; I've never really understood its appeal. I can also say from experience that it causes problems in dating when individuals are just not able to fit in to this caricature of behavior. Are such individuals left with no real choice but to find a racial opposite?



Yeah, it really bothers me that porn gets divided into racial stereotypes. Black man/white woman vids are more common than the other way around. Since it's men who watch this stuff more than women, I imagine that for nonblacks who watch that stuff there really is some element of the naughty slut who will do it with *any* man....and/or the idea that since black men are supposed to have huge dongs and the "slut" wants it so badly no other man can satisfy her. But it's fantasy and I can't judge other people's fantasies. I just feel like where these vids are concerned for some guys it's a thin line between fantasy and reality. That's what's troublesome to me. That's just not a fantasy I'm interested in.

What kind of behavior did the women you date expect from you?


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## chicken legs (May 8, 2009)

As an ffa i love contrast it keeps things interesting..


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## Edens_heel (May 8, 2009)

Very cool replies so far - glad to see this thread picking up some steam. I think, for me, the more I become aware of the contrast, the more the idea of it is an attraction to me, to the point where, as a result, things that I have found attractive in the past, are much less so to me now - now that I have experienced and realized just how much I love the contrast.


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## PunkPeach (May 8, 2009)

Oh this is going to sound bad....although I am not specifically into contrast. I like skinny guys because I enjoy the bruises between my thighs after intimate activity from their hip bones. That being said, I tend to look at people as the whole package, and am much more likely to be attracted to any body type if the mind gets me interested first.


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## Captain Save (May 8, 2009)

olwen said:


> What kind of behavior did the women you date expect from you?



Lots of stereotypes in how black men are supposed to behave; fortunately it only takes 3 to 5 minutes at most for that expectation to dissolve. After they get to know me, they see me behaving publically as a gentleman, spoiling them whenever I can. I prefer shirts and ties to expensive designer wear, wine over beer, espresso to soft drinks, and subdued over loud and flashy. Although I hate being rude, I don't avoid being honest, especially if it means saying something shocking or funny. One of my worries is that I'm sometimes too longwinded, so I try to keep it short and listen more than I talk. It's tough when I have a complex idea to express.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 8, 2009)

PunkPeach said:


> That being said, I tend to look at people as the whole package, and am much more likely to be attracted to any body type if the mind gets me interested first.



Bless you, for it is harder and harder to find these days... hope for intelligence yet!!


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## BarbBBW (May 9, 2009)

this is true for me usually,!! I know I am married ,... LOL but pure attraction, its darker men for me, and lighter men if the are really good looking or something interest me besides the first look!


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

BarbBBW said:


> this is true for me usually,!! I know I am married ,... LOL but pure attraction, its darker men for me, and lighter men if the are really good looking or something interest me besides the first look!



Ahhh, too bad. You struck out with me right off the bat!!!!  ROFL

I hear ya


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

olwen said:


> In some places in this country interracial dating is still a serious no-no so sex with a black person becomes taboo and by extension black culture (whatever that is) becomes relegated to some caricature of a gansta rapper or a hoochie mama. Some people are turned on by that and they want you to act accordingly.





olwen said:


> Yeah, it really bothers me that porn gets divided into racial stereotypes. Black man/white woman vids are more common than the other way around. Since it's men who watch this stuff more than women, I imagine that for nonblacks who watch that stuff there really is some element of the naughty slut who will do it with *any* man....and/or the idea that since black men are supposed to have huge dongs and the "slut" wants it so badly no other man can satisfy her. But it's fantasy and I can't judge other people's fantasies. I just feel like where these vids are concerned for some guys it's a thin line between fantasy and reality. That's what's troublesome to me. That's just not a fantasy I'm interested in.
> 
> What kind of behavior did the women you date expect from you?



See, maby that is why i really dont 'see' the second part of what you said. I dont think interacial dating is so taboo here. Maby its more of an American thing or a 'some parts of America' thing. If i see porn with Black men in it i dont think any of the things you mentioned. Actually that really surprised me. Shocked me even a little. Though, to be honest if a see porn with black men or any men in it i'm probably watching the wrong porn!  What about pornography with a Black and a white women?, would that have so many pollitical meanings attached or would it just be two women shagging and be considered hot?


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> See, maby that is why i really dont 'see' the second part of what you said. I dont think interacial dating is so taboo here. Maby its more of an American thing or a 'some parts of America' thing. If i see porn with Black men in it i dont think any of the things you mentioned. Actually that really surprised me. Shocked me even a little. Though, to be honest if a see porn with black men or any men in it i'm probably watching the wrong porn!  What about pornography with a Black and a white women?, would that have so many pollitical meanings attached or would it just be two women shagging and be considered hot?



Yeah, it is an American thing to be sure, the "culture" not willing to accept it still, but I have observed a lot of the resistance coming from the African-American community. It is changing slowly, but many women I see get jealous because the men are dating white women more and more, and yet the smallest margin by far is African-American women dating white men. A lot of it has to do with the opinion held by many that it is bad for the community. Times are changing very quickly, and yet there are still parts of American life that hardly do change. When a change in attitude comes, then we should see some movement. As of now, I just don't see much progress.


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> Yeah, it is an American thing to be sure, the "culture" not willing to accept it still, but I have observed a lot of the resistance coming from the African-American community. It is changing slowly, but many women I see get jealous because the men are dating white women more and more, and yet the smallest margin by far is African-American women dating white men. A lot of it has to do with the opinion held by many that it is bad for the community. Times are changing very quickly, and yet there are still parts of American life that hardly do change. When a change in attitude comes, then we should see some movement. As of now, I just don't see much progress.



This is sort of another side of another argument going on elsewhere. Sure there's a lot of prejudicial treatment going on with a black woman's refusal to consider dating a white man but that prejudice is based mostly on attraction and not some cultural issue. My sister for example is not attracted to white men at all. She is horribly alone at this point and really wants to be in a relationship. Many white men have liked her, approached her, etc. to the point where she has put NO WHITE MEN in bold letters in her profile. Our brother is white, Italian actually. So are our nieces, nephews. We don't have any prejudicial issues in that sense but my sister prefers black men. I don't think it has anything at all to do with lack of an open mind to dating white. I've done so and don't have a problem with it but I know many black women who say they think white men are cute but that's about it. The 'culture' raving excuse is really just a rallying cry to ward off the pressure to conform. They'd rather say that than say, "Ugckh! *shudder* NOO!" I don't mean to be crass or insulting, it's just a view from inside.

There are black men who prefer black women exclusively as well. Heh. The problem is some of them have so many baby mamas they could start their own gospel choir and go on the road. The pickins are slim. Of the decent black men out there most of them are dating white women and that's what's got so many black women salty. The only black men to choose from are the ones who treat us like shit. So there it is. Are there black women who will date white men? Of course there are, some even exclusively. It's like anything else though. Finding an FA who will actually date or marry a super fat woman has it's own issues. Some of us will die alone on the couch and be eaten by cats. That's just the way it is.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> This is sort of another side of another argument going on elsewhere. Sure there's a lot of prejudicial treatment going on with a black woman's refusal to consider dating a white man but that prejudice is based mostly on attraction and not some cultural issue. My sister for example is not attracted to white men at all. She is horribly alone at this point and really wants to be in a relationship. Many white men have liked her, approached her, etc. to the point where she has put NO WHITE MEN in bold letters in her profile. Our brother is white, Italian actually. So are our nieces, nephews. We don't have any prejudicial issues in that sense but my sister prefers black men. I don't think it has anything at all to do with lack of an open mind to dating white. I've done so and don't have a problem with it but I know many black women who say they think white men are cute but that's about it. The 'culture' raving excuse is really just a rallying cry to ward off the pressure to conform. They'd rather say that than say, "Ugckh! *shudder* NOO!" I don't mean to be crass or insulting, it's just a view from inside.



I was just speaking from experience, because it really doesn't seem to be that way in the Carribean, Canada, or in Africa- only in the United States have I found it to be a lot more prevalent. To put in a profile "NO WHITE MEN" is insulting, and completely shuts out a large part of the population. I see it as very narrow-minded, but that's how a lot of people are. I'm glad at least those attitudes are changing, just as size acceptance is coming into its own.



> There are black men who prefer black women exclusively as well. Heh. The problem is some of them have so many baby mamas they could start their own gospel choir and go on the road. The pickins are slim. Of the decent black men out there most of them are dating white women and that's what's got so many black women salty. The only black men to choose from are the ones who treat us like shit. So there it is. Are there black women who will date white men? Of course there are, some even exclusively. It's like anything else though. Finding an FA who will actually date or marry a super fat woman has it's own issues. Some of us will die alone on the couch and be eaten by cats. That's just the way it is.



Ohh no, I know that there are are that will, but for some reason things are different here in the USA, and no one really seems to want to change. I must say I'm very surprised you'd be that frank about it, and that the pickins are slim. I guess we're just shocking the world one person at a time, and FAs are crossing the color barrier to change it all. I love it


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> I was just speaking from experience, because it really doesn't seem to be that way in the Carribean, Canada, or in Africa- only in the United States have I found it to be a lot more prevalent. To put in a profile "NO WHITE MEN" is insulting, and completely shuts out a large part of the population. I see it as very narrow-minded, but that's how a lot of people are. I'm glad at least those attitudes are changing, just as size acceptance is coming into its own.
> 
> 
> 
> Ohh no, I know that there are are that will, but for some reason things are different here in the USA, and no one really seems to want to change. I must say I'm very surprised you'd be that frank about it, and that the pickins are slim. I guess we're just shocking the world one person at a time, and FAs are crossing the color barrier to change it all. I love it



Well I get to hear it a lot. Nobody will talk about it because it's impolite and it makes people angry. I suppose I've just pulled the pin in a way but I just feel if we avoid issues nothing ever gets accomplished and we'll never move forward. If somebody has bright ideas they shoudl be heard but not without looking at the whole ugly. I've given my sister a hard time about her bold notice and she argues that she feels she has to. Says it doesn't stop them from approaching her anyway. If a person says they're not attracted to xyz I have no choice but to take their word for it.


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## Captain Save (May 9, 2009)

The problem I've experienced is that the Black women I have come across are interested only in getting married and having children; very flattering, but they don't seem to be interested in the relationship between us, per se. My children are 19 and 15, so I'm thinking of driver's licenses and college applications; I'm not going back to diapers, nightime feedings, and strollers. On top of that, the remaining ladies I have seen invariably question my membership in the black community; faced with this kind of thinking, the message becomes pretty clear.

Now I need to find this discussion Lilly mentioned!


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## Ned Sonntag (May 9, 2009)

I always enjoyed going to Nancy Goddess':wubu: soirees out on Queens Boulevard even before there was a DIMENSIONS because they were SO ethnically mixed. It just eliminated that initial hurdle. OK here's an anecdote... my late wife's Greek-Irish brilliant and eccentric main Personal Personal Care Attendant has had quite a difficult row to hoe, having 6 'mixed' children by three different babydaddies, two CapeVerdean(African-Portuguese) and one Black-from-Mississippi... finally she told me one day, "I just don't like looking at White Men's legs!" Hey she's got a point.:doh:


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Well I get to hear it a lot. Nobody will talk about it because it's impolite and it makes people angry. I suppose I've just pulled the pin in a way but I just feel if we avoid issues nothing ever gets accomplished and we'll never move forward. If somebody has bright ideas they shoudl be heard but not without looking at the whole ugly. I've given my sister a hard time about her bold notice and she argues that she feels she has to. Says it doesn't stop them from approaching her anyway. If a person says they're not attracted to xyz I have no choice but to take their word for it.



Of course no onw will talk about it because there are so many who will become super defensive and turn it into something nasty. There are preferences, and there are things that make people question others' character. It is in all how you say things and approach things, and sometimes our ways of meeting new people hinder our future happiness. I'm glad you could talk about this with me, for it has been a big problem personally. 



Captain Save said:


> The problem I've experienced is that the Black women I have come across are interested only in getting married and having children; very flattering, but they don't seem to be interested in the relationship between us, per se. My children are 19 and 15, so I'm thinking of driver's licenses and college applications; I'm not going back to diapers, nightime feedings, and strollers. *On top of that, the remaining ladies I have seen invariably question my membership in the black community*; faced with this kind of thinking, the message becomes pretty clear.
> 
> Now I need to find this discussion Lilly mentioned!



Wow... now that is pathetic, and precisely the attitude I'm talking about. It really needs to go the way of the dodo, extinct and out of society completely. If I was to follow my "community", I would have married a French-Canadian woman, had a large family, and stayed in New England. However, times change, and the sooner we all come together as human beings, the better off we'll be!

The discussion is HERE


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## olwen (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> See, maby that is why i really dont 'see' the second part of what you said. I dont think interacial dating is so taboo here. Maby its more of an American thing or a 'some parts of America' thing. If i see porn with Black men in it i dont think any of the things you mentioned. Actually that really surprised me. Shocked me even a little. Though, to be honest if a see porn with black men or any men in it i'm probably watching the wrong porn!  What about pornography with a Black and a white women?, would that have so many pollitical meanings attached or would it just be two women shagging and be considered hot?



I imagine that lesbian sex in a porno context isn't threatening to the men watching it so who sleeps with who probably doesn't matter as long as they don't look butch.


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

Tau said:


> Its an interesting thought. I tend to get hit on and go out with skinny white guys - that's just how its worked out so far. I don't have a racial or size preference when it comes to significant others, its always all about how moved i am by the individual and their various quirks and behaviours. I do love a pretty pair of eyes, or a sexy mouth, or veiny arms :eat2: but as a package men who are strong, physically and emotionally, responsible, secure, intelligent - guys who make me feel taken care of - are what I'm after. I think for most women the visual is fun and all but most chicks arent about the looks. Evolution picked up on that and this is why I think you find there are more ridiculously good looking women than there are men in the world  Also, just as an end to this very long waffle, I rarely see big couples where both the man and the woman are fat - I've seen it more on this forum than anywhere else. Hardly ever in real life. I've personally never been hit on by a big guy - NEVER! I find large men attractive but the ones I've encountered so far fat is not the way forward for them - one actually went so far as to tell me he found fat girls repulsive - and they go out of their way to pursue thin girls.


I'm not surprised you get hit on by skinny white guys (or anyone for that matter) you are a gorgeous woman! I can't believe the cheek of the fat guy who told you big women repulse him, what an arse. I had an experience once in a pub when I was standing at the bar waiting to buy some drinks. The bar was busy and this guy who was also standing waiting to be served began to chat to me as we waited. Let me set the scene... I was half the size I am now and could only be described as chubby, maybe bordering on the lower end of bbw. I had long blonde hair at the time, which was looking lovely, my make up was on to perfection, I was dressed very smart and was looking particularly hot that evening. The guy was average height, balding, needed a shave, average sized with a fairly large beer belly hanging over his trousers. His face was pretty average looking too. Any way he started chatting to me about how busy the pub was etc. I passed the time of day with the guy and was friendly and polite as I always am. Eventually we both got served by different bar tenders and as we went to go our seperate ways with drinks in hand, he turned to me and said...."Do you know something?, you are really nice and so pretty, if you just weren't so fat I might fancy you".

When I am being insulted I am quick witted at the time despite being hurt and upset at his comment so my reply was....." do you know something, you must be a really good singer" He smiled and said " o'h yeh, how come?" I said, "well my mum always taught me that everyone has at least one beautiful quality and I can clearly see you have fuck all else going for you". I gave him my best dirty look and walked away. His friends stood laughing at him but to be honest I was devastated and it ruined my night as I was far less thick skinned and confident as I am now. Men have such a cheek! It has been my experience that where I come from western men are often like this, I don't know if other cultures are different or if it is a cheauvanistic attitude that it is ok for the guy to be ugly and talentless but women have to have it all going on. Bolloks to them xx


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> Of course no onw will talk about it because there are so many who will become super defensive and turn it into something nasty. There are preferences, and there are things that make people question others' character. It is in all how you say things and approach things, and sometimes our ways of meeting new people hinder our future happiness. I'm glad you could talk about this with me, for it has been a big problem personally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is I think there truly is a place for cultural preservation. There are people of all cultures who believe it without being bigoted and I'm ok with it. I think it crosses the line when one is thinking no one else is supposed to choose differently or they're somehow defying their culture by intermarrying. Yes there are some, possibly most, whose prefference is soley based on attraction. My question is how far can we go to accuse someone of discounting a person solely on cultural bounds? If there are two wonderful men standing before me on bended knee, one is black and one is white, I'm going to choose the one I'm attracted to - even if the one I don't choose has stronger feelings for me than the other. No matter who I choose though, the other is going to accuse me of being racially biased. 

My point is that people in general don't couple with someone simply because it's the right thing to do. They're going to go with their gut and probably spout all kinds of cultural hyperbole with it because it matches and it's what they've been taught to do. Those more willing to break the mold will pat themselves on the back for being culturally more open minded and bla bla bla when really the decision is being made by Mr. Johnson and doesn't have anything to do with some form of andvancement in thinking. And we haven't even begun to scratch the surface about the cultural stereotypes. There's a can of worms right there.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Men have such a cheek! It has been my experience that where I come from western men are often like this, I don't know if other cultures are different or if it is a cheauvanistic attitude that it is ok for the guy to be ugly and talentless but women have to have it all going on. Bolloks to them xx



Ahh, but it works both ways... beautiful, thin women often chase older men for their money and enjoy the power they hold. Let's face it- both men and women have their own groups that act in the same ugly fashion because they choose to. Bollocks to them, I say as well!!! :smitten::wubu: BBWs  :wubu: :smitten:


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I think it crosses the line when one is thinking no one else is supposed to choose differently or they're somehow defying their culture by intermarrying.



And a lot of times I feel that even at beginning a relationship as well.



LillyBBBW said:


> No matter who I choose though, the other is going to accuse me of being racially biased.



Well, that is also true... but there is a huge difference between choosing and saying "NO WHITE MEN" right off the bat- that is pretty clear!



LillyBBBW said:


> My point is that people in general don't couple with someone simply because it's the right thing to do. They're going to go with their gut and probably spout all kinds of cultural hyperbole with it because it matches and it's what they've been taught to do. Those more willing to break the mold will pat themselves on the back for being culturally more open minded and bla bla bla when really the decision is being made by Mr. Johnson and doesn't have anything to do with some form of andvancement in thinking. And we haven't even begun to scratch the surface about the cultural stereotypes. There's a can of worms right there.



I know it is... and me being probably one of the most tolerant people often finds it difficult to deal with people who push these stereotypes. Just like being an FA, I get a lot of flack for what I like- in the end, tough- I'm not going to change the fact that I am different!


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> Ahh, but it works both ways... beautiful, thin women often chase older men for their money and enjoy the power they hold. Let's face it- both men and women have their own groups that act in the same ugly fashion because they choose to. Bollocks to them, I say as well!!! :smitten::wubu: BBWs  :wubu: :smitten:


Ok, I agree I might have come across a tad sexist there,lol. I do agree that men and women can both behave badly however I think it is a little different to insult someone by saying I'd fancy you if you weren't so fat when the guy himself was no oil painting! I think J Howard Marshall knew that Anna Nicole Smith wasn't with him for his dashing good looks and as far as I know neither of them insulted the others looks or weight, and we all know anna was a bit of a yoyo, lol.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Ok, I agree I might have come across a tad sexist there,lol. I do agree that men and women can both behave badly however I think it is a little different to insult someone by saying I'd fancy you if you weren't so fat when the guy himself was no oil painting! I think J Howard Marshall knew that Anna Nicole Smith wasn't with him for his dashing good looks and as far as I know neither of them insulted the others looks or weight, and we all know anna was a bit of a yoyo, lol.



Ohh, I don't throw around labels like candy, no worries  It is all about hypocrisy, and you were right in being very angry! Just saying that for all the women out there that say they want a good man, is a good man who's been run over by plenty of women. Ohh this world has its ways of beting everyone down from time to time!


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Ok, I agree I might have come across a tad sexist there,lol. I do agree that men and women can both behave badly however I think it is a little different to insult someone by saying I'd fancy you if you weren't so fat when the guy himself was no oil painting! I think J Howard Marshall knew that Anna Nicole Smith wasn't with him for his dashing good looks and as far as I know neither of them insulted the others looks or weight, and we all know anna was a bit of a yoyo, lol.


OK, I really wanted to respond to a few people's comments on this thread so I will just have my own opinion directed to know one in particular. Firstly I think in pornos they do put people of different skin colour together for the contrast which personally I think can look rather sexy. I think milky white skin can look hot against rich dark skin. I think black skin is very attractive. I dated an African guy briefly a couple of years ago but unfortunately he was an arsehole so this cancelled out his gorgeous skin colour and cuteness. I'm really attracted to my gorgeous girlfriend who was fairly thin when we started dating and who is now quite chubby, whilst I am not an FA I am still very sexually attracted to her and like that she is not the same as me, size, hair colour, skin tone (athough we are both white, she tans easily and I am very fair), I have blue eyes, she has brown. I like the contrast and I think we compliment each other.

I do have a slightly embarrasing confession though. I have always thought black skin was sexy, I used to really fancy Samual L Jackson and Lawrence Fishburn, I've loved Tina Turner since I was 3 years old. My mum told me I used to sing rolling on the river and dance about like Tina when I was a toddler. I do think black skin is exotic, I don't think this is an offensive comment as exotic represents someone from a far away place of a different culture. My best friend is Spanish and when I've been back and fourth to Spain My best friend told me his friends described me as exotic because I am fair with blonde hair and blue eyes. They all have sallow skin and, dark hair, dark eyes and I stand out and look really unusual compared to them. I have actually been stared at in the street! You may think this odd however my friend is from an area where no one speaks English and it is not on the tourist track, the real Spain, it is beautiful and dare I say it....exotic!.

Any way, the embarrassing thing is that although I knew I found black people particularly attractive I never realised we looked differnent naked. I was with an ex (boyfriend) who put on a porno film (I'd never watched one). It was a white guy and a beautiful black woman. She took off her bra and her nipples were black, mine are pink so I got a little surprise and a fluttering in my belly. She got naked and lay on the bed, it went to an oral scene with the guy going down on her and when she opened her legs she was very pink, this comparison to the black outer vagina and inner thighs was soo sexy and I got soooo wet and turned on my head was swimming. I had a great time but it wasn't my boyfriend I was thinking about.lol


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## olwen (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> This is sort of another side of another argument going on elsewhere. Sure there's a lot of prejudicial treatment going on with a black woman's refusal to consider dating a white man but that prejudice is based mostly on attraction and not some cultural issue. My sister for example is not attracted to white men at all. She is horribly alone at this point and really wants to be in a relationship. Many white men have liked her, approached her, etc. to the point where she has put NO WHITE MEN in bold letters in her profile. Our brother is white, Italian actually. So are our nieces, nephews. We don't have any prejudicial issues in that sense but my sister prefers black men. I don't think it has anything at all to do with lack of an open mind to dating white. I've done so and don't have a problem with it but I know many black women who say they think white men are cute but that's about it. The 'culture' raving excuse is really just a rallying cry to ward off the pressure to conform. They'd rather say that than say, "Ugckh! *shudder* NOO!" I don't mean to be crass or insulting, it's just a view from inside.
> 
> There are black men who prefer black women exclusively as well. Heh. The problem is some of them have so many baby mamas they could start their own gospel choir and go on the road. The pickins are slim. Of the decent black men out there most of them are dating white women and that's what's got so many black women salty. The only black men to choose from are the ones who treat us like shit. So there it is. Are there black women who will date white men? Of course there are, some even exclusively. It's like anything else though. Finding an FA who will actually date or marry a super fat woman has it's own issues. Some of us will die alone on the couch and be eaten by cats. That's just the way it is.



I'd think cultural differences have something to do with it somewhere. My sisters have white female friends, and they find white men attractive but neither of them have ever dated white men. We've never discussed why at length. I just assumed it was for cultural reasons. I'm not gonna lie, sometimes my white friends ask me questions about black culture that I think are kinda bonkers. They have cultural assumptions that frankly mystify me sometimes and I'm guessing my sisters don't want to deal with that. My friends may have no problems being friends with a black woman, but my white friends have never dated black women either. They can talk about how hot they think Beyonce is, but they have never expressed any real interest in any black women. Other races yes. Blacks, no. I imagine that is for cultural reasons as well. There really is an otherness quality to their assumptions about black people.


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

olwen said:


> I'd think cultural differences have something to do with it somewhere. My sisters have white female friends, and they find white men attractive but neither of them have ever dated white men. We've never discussed why at length. I just assumed it was for cultural reasons. I'm not gonna lie, sometimes my white friends ask me questions about black culture that I think are kinda bonkers. They have cultural assumptions that frankly mystify me sometimes and I'm guessing my sisters don't want to deal with that. My friends may have no problems being friends with a black woman, but my white friends have never dated black women either. They can talk about how hot they think Beyonce is, but they have never expressed any real interest in any black women. Other races yes. Blacks, no. I imagine that is for cultural reasons as well. There really is an otherness quality to their assumptions about black people.


All the straight white guys I know would date Beyonce in a second, they should be so lucky. Maybe in Scotland we just think if someone is hot they are hot and race/culture isn't the issue. Stereotypes are stupid like what you said about people thinking black guys have big dongs, the one I dated had a tiny dagger no bigger than my thumb so that throws that steroetype right out the window!.lol. I don't think these stereotypes are exclusively towards black people. It can even happen regardless of coulour, eg. people thinking if you are fat you are lazy etc. I spent three months living in Stockholm, Sweden in 2001, through a friend I had met over there one of her friends invited me over to dinner because she'd never met a Scottish person before. When I arrived at her house and she opened her front door to me, she looked at me disappointed and said, o'h I thought you would have red hair? Ok I know that isn't serious or harmful in any way but can you imagine if I had turned round and said to my ex, oh I thought you'd have a big cock? I suppose it is kind of different when someones manhood is at stake. Just so no-one thinks I'm being racist here, I've also dated a white Scottish guy with a tiny cock too.


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## Captain Save (May 9, 2009)

Because people inadvertently perpetuate these kinds of stereotypes, I told both of my children to try everything under the sun before they get married (very unpopular stance with the rest of the family!), so that they could debunk the propoganda of well meaning acquaintances who pass judgement on their choices without all the facts. Besides, let's be honest: one never really knows the content and character of a significant other until they are behind closed doors and honestly getting to know one another without distraction (and I don't mean the flavor of their skin on a hot sunny day!)


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

olwen said:


> My friends may have no problems being friends with a black woman, but my white friends have never dated black women either. They can talk about how hot they think Beyonce is, but they have never expressed any real interest in any black women. Other races yes. Blacks, no. I imagine that is for cultural reasons as well. There really is an otherness quality to their assumptions about black people.



Yes, but the assumptions go both ways- I have seen black women not even realize that I am looking right at them, admiring their beauty, as if I don't even exist. This is an all too common problem, and would really dissapear if there was more communication. However, these social barriers that have been put up a lot of times are quite annoying. This is not a problem in other countries, however. When I went to Africa or Antigua just this week, everything was completely normal, and I didn't feel that barrier AT ALL.


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> And a lot of times I feel that even at beginning a relationship as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok then. Why in the world are you attracted to fat black women? What if you weren't attracted to them, would you date one anyway just because she's nice? I really feel that visceral desires in general are overdressed. I really would love to come to a place in the linear universe where it would be OK for people to desire who they desire without needing their preference to be right and everyone else's to be wrong. Within the confines of consenting adults of course. I think overall this attitude is what muddies the waters and begets more people needing to defend the morality of their desires with proclamations that do more harm than good. 




olwen said:


> I'd think cultural differences have something to do with it somewhere. My sisters have white female friends, and they find white men attractive but neither of them have ever dated white men. We've never discussed why at length. I just assumed it was for cultural reasons. I'm not gonna lie, sometimes my white friends ask me questions about black culture that I think are kinda bonkers. They have cultural assumptions that frankly mystify me sometimes and I'm guessing my sisters don't want to deal with that. My friends may have no problems being friends with a black woman, but my white friends have never dated black women either. They can talk about how hot they think Beyonce is, but they have never expressed any real interest in any black women. Other races yes. Blacks, no. I imagine that is for cultural reasons as well. There really is an otherness quality to their assumptions about black people.



I understand that otherness but there is a difference between finding someone attractive and actually being attracted to them. Sure there are a lot of cultural idiots out there but you and I seem to do okay despite them as far as dating interracially goes. You learn how to weed them out but if we weren't attracted at all to white men we wouldn't have to bother. We could just simply say no and spout off any blanket stereotype reason or noble purpose we like, just like everyone else does. Or we can incense the crowd and say we don't find white men attractive, that would be pretty. :smitten: Like I mentioned before, I think attraction is visceral. There may be some people who would probably just never really considered it. I theorize that those numbers would be few. Most people just like what they like and the culture is either a plus or an obstacle.

EDA: Here's some irony for you. I went to a bbw dance in CT and was hanging with my friend, a white woman. This black man approaches us from across the room. As he draws near he walks right up to my friend and asks her to dance. She stiffens a little and says no. She's not attracted to black men. He steps aside but can't stop looking at her. She gets really uncomfortable and leaves to go to the ladies room. I felt so bad for the guy the way she dissed him that I looked at him and offed him a half hearted little smile. His face sobered right up and he turned his head abruptly. Then he walked off without a word. It's a crazy azzed world.


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

See, i dont see the problem with saying that in general you dont find white/black men/women attractive??
Its a preference just as liking fat/thin blah blah etc..
Just because i am not attracted to thin people doesn mean i HATE thin people. So what would be the harm in saying you are not attracted to a race/ colour of person. Its honest and time saving for ALL!!
Oh..and on this note.. me and GD were talking and i realised that although i have no preference racially for women i realise i prefer Black men. I'm not really sure why this is though..I shant be stealing any though, so no worries!


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

actually.. I even have thin freinds!!!!!!
tee-hee


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## Captain Save (May 9, 2009)

As a country, I think we place too many expectations on people solely on the basis of race; tragically, experience sometimes validates those presumptions. Cultural taboos are still very powerful here in the US as well; just about every time I go somewhere with a woman of a different race I invariably catch a sour look from a black woman as if to say, 'what is he doing with her, with so many good black women out here trying to find a man?!' When I spend time with a black woman, my cultural background is usually (not always) met with skepticism. Yes, I've also been turned down like the guy in the story you shared, Lilly; of course, at a BBW dance, I'm not nearly as stupid to scornfully walk away from a lovely lady.


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

i guess this is something i just wont ever understand i think. The fact that, say, a black woman might be anoyed at a Black man for dating a white women because in someway it would lessen the amount of Black men for Black women.. It makes my head spin?! Surely, Black woman dating white men just balances it all out. Actually, i think i would like to understand why i just 'dont get' this mind set. Why should you have to date someone of the same skin type of yourself? Where do the contrasts end? What about lighter and darker shades of Skin types?. I find it weird.. Maby i'm glad i find it weird because it actually is!


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> i guess this is something i just wont ever understand i think. The fact that, say, a black woman might be anoyed at a Black man for dating a white women because in someway it would lessen the amount of Black men for Black women.. It makes my head spin?! Surely, Black woman dating white men just balances it all out. Actually, i think i would like to understand why i just 'dont get' this mind set. Why should you have to date someone of the same skin type of yourself? Where do the contrasts end? What about lighter and darker shades of Skin types?. I find it weird.. Maby i'm glad i find it weird because it actually is!



I don't thik this behavior or mindset is all that uncommon. We tend to be focusing on it more so with black women but I think in general people can become scornful when it comes to dating. Midsized bbws feel ignored by FAs, we hear it all the time. A black/white man approaches someone of another race and gets blown off and they think it's obviously a racial issue, etc. People get angry when they feel they are just as deserving of attention and consideration as the next person. When it comes to attraction though it's not always a matter of mentally concious selection I don't think. But when you're angry, hurt or frustrated that doesn't much matter. I'm thinking that black women are getting a bad rep for something all of us do when the person we want passes us up for some one else. We wonder why.


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't thik this behavior or mindset is all that uncommon. We tend to be focusing on it more so with black women but I think in general people can become scornful when it comes to dating. Midsized bbws feel ignored by FAs, we hear it all the time. A black/white man approaches someone of another race and gets blown off and they think it's obviously a racial issue, etc. People get angry when they feel they are just as deserving of attention and consideration as the next person. When it comes to attraction though it's not always a matter of mentally concious selection I don't think. But when you're angry, hurt or frustrated that doesn't much matter. I'm thinking that black women are getting a bad rep for something all of us do when the person we want passes us up for some one else. We wonder why.


But does this happen in reverse? Where white women get pissed off at white men for not dating white women. I havn't heard about this so much. Yeah though..lol.. actually why are the women getting all the shit for this anyway?? Maby the old adage is correct that a good man is hard to find.. so women end up getting upset over it. Or else, as you say, its just a question of people getting upset at being passed over ..and maby women by nature are more vocal about that fact. I have been saying that the race thing doesnt happen in scotland.. but neither does the bbw thing cause we have no partys! 
There is just no arena for drama here.. which frankly i am disapointed about.


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> But does this happen in reverse? Where white women get pissed off at white men for not dating white women. I havn't heard about this so much. Yeah though..lol.. actually why are the women getting all the shit for this anyway?? Maby the old adage is correct that a good man is hard to find.. so women end up getting upset over it. Or else, as you say, its just a question of people getting upset at being passed over ..and maby women by nature are more vocal about that fact. I have been saying that the race thing doesnt happen in scotland.. but neither does the bbw thing cause we have no partys!
> There is just no arena for drama here.. which frankly i am disapointed about.



I feel like I would fall asleep in scotland. there would be nothing to do! No big booty ghetto whores, no rolling on the ground catfights on the subway commute, no drug store pistol stick ups - what's to do there?


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I feel like I would fall asleep in scotland. there would be nothing to do! No big booty ghetto whores, no rolling on the ground catfights on the subway commute, no drug store pistol stick ups - what's to do there?


hmm..nothing but drinking irn bru, eating haggis and tossing cabers. 
Oh and we have a lot of maratime museums. 
I ache for big booty ghetto whores and catfights. 
(oh yeah..i still need to make that t-shirt)


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

Though!!! I did see a hooker washing her hands in a puddle a while back!! That was exciting i guess.. in a kinna grim way, thought you have to be in the big city to experience action like that!! Plus our subway system (In Glasgow) has about erm 10 stops..so theres not really any time for rolling on the ground. 
See.. i dont want to paint Scotland as a fight free eutopia.. walk into some areas wearing a green or a blue scarf and you will get murdered! See..we dont give a fuck about the colour of your skin.. but when it comes to scarfs.. we are pretty harsh!! Its a football thing.. and i dont understand that either!


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Though!!! I did see a hooker washing her hands in a puddle a while back!! That was exciting i guess.. in a kinna grim way, thought you have to be in the big city to experience action like that!! Plus our subway system (In Glasgow) has about erm 10 stops..so theres not really any time for rolling on the ground.
> See.. i dont want to paint Scotland as a fight free eutopia.. *walk into some areas wearing a green or a blue scarf and you will get murdered!* See..we dont give a fuck about the colour of your skin.. but when it comes to scarfs.. we are pretty harsh!! Its a football thing.. and i dont understand that either!



OMG that is good to know. I do plan on visiting again and I'm a knitter. I knit all my own scarves and blue and green are my favorite colors.  Think it might be a good time to start off a purple one.


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> OMG that is good to know. I do plan on visiting again and I'm a knitter. I knit all my own scarves and blue and green are my favorite colors.  Think it might be a good time to start off a purple one.


YES! You do that. As far as i know there are no scottish football teams who wear the colour purple, so its a safe bet! When you come for a visit you will need to have a stay on the east coast for a day or two with me n GD cause its nice here. No ghetto whore fights but nice scenery and nice wee shops, kirks and castles. Oh..and a monster but she lives up north a bit.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Ok then. Why in the world are you attracted to fat black women? What if you weren't attracted to them, would you date one anyway just because she's nice? I really feel that visceral desires in general are overdressed. I really would love to come to a place in the linear universe where it would be OK for people to desire who they desire without needing their preference to be right and everyone else's to be wrong. Within the confines of consenting adults of course. I think overall this attitude is what muddies the waters and begets more people needing to defend the morality of their desires with proclamations that do more harm than good.



Ahh, but as I said in my first post, a majority of BBW women where I lived were black, and they really didn't give me a chance- and it was overt, not something I automatically assumed. They felt weird that a white man approached them and found them interesting, so maybe it was partly because of shock. That isn't healthy for society- we need to recognize that the past is buried, and we're moving on. These actions aren't based on just preferences, though- they are based upon what has happened in the past and how others will judge in these cases. Sure, I'll give the leeway for preference, but when the numbers are supremely stacked against me for other reasons, I would worry.


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> YES! You do that. As far as i know there are no scottish football teams who wear the colour purple, so its a safe bet! When you come for a visit you will need to have a stay on the East coast for a day or two with me n GD cause its nice here. No ghetto whore fights but nice scenery and nice wee shops, kirks and castles. Oh..and a monster but she lives up north a bit.


Lilly, we actually live on the WEST coast and you will be welcome here xx come one Mergirl, you've lived here too long to forget which side of Scotland you live on lol


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Lilly, we actually live on the WEST coast and you will be welcome here xx come one Mergirl, you've lived here too long to forget which side of Scotland you live on lol


Goddam you.. I am moving east! 
Maby its because we are going on our holidays on monday to the east coast that it was in my head.
Grrr..i could have edited that too.. how foolish of me! yes,, i get my east and west mixed up.


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Goddam you.. I am moving east!
> Maby its because we are going on our holidays on monday to the east coast that it was in my head.
> Grrr..i could have edited that too.. how foolish of me! yes,, i get my east and west mixed up.


oh my wee simpleton, just remember you moved in with me in January so you have officially been an ayrshire lassie for the past 5 months now xx


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## Captain Save (May 9, 2009)

Undrcovrbrothr, sometimes the cards are stacked against you. What you are describing sounds like groupthink, and it happens a lot more often than we'd like to think (scathing condemnation of celebrities who get fat and are unhappy with it). I've had this happen to me as well; approach a young lady, and because she is unsure of how her peers might react, she declines your offer of companionship and proceeds to tell the story of your interest to her peers. It doesn't take long for you to become an untouchable in the peer group if all are in unspoken agreement to conform to perceived norms. In short, it's not the girl you're dating; it's all her friends and their opinions as well. If it sounds like high school, it's because I haven't forgotten the lessons I learned; the boat, of course, isn't much different. 

Of course, in time, she usually will become mature enough to not give a shit what her friends think.


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## mergirl (May 9, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> oh my wee simpleton, just remember you moved in with me in January so you have officially been an ayrshire lassie for the past 5 months now xx


yeah.. i can already feel myself speaking in that weird ayrshire accent 'gaads thirs a deed bo-dee bin thi watter ken' 
Anyway thread, excuse me.. carry on. 
x


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## GoldenDelicious (May 9, 2009)

mergirl said:


> yeah.. i can already feel myself speaking in that weird ayrshire accent 'gaads thirs a deed bo-dee bin thi watter ken'
> Anyway thread, excuse me.. carry on.
> x


OK, for those non Scots I will translate MERGIRLS rantings. Ken is often used by west coast Scottish, it translates as ' i know' or 'do you know', e'g. You might say beyonce is really sexy, I would reply, ' I ken, she gorgeous right enough'

Gads, means, o'h yuk!, it's an expression that something is horrible. You might ask, do you like haggis?. My reply would be, oh gads no, its made of sheeps stomach!' 

deed bo=dee is mergirls way of taking the piss out of the way I speak and what I actually said is dead body. In the watter, is...in the water. 

There was a really bad skye television programme on a few months ago and it was talking about the toughest seaside towns in the uk. The town we live in was on that stupid show and was full of idiots wanting their 15 minutes of fame talking absolute crap about the town they don't even live in and said there had been dead bodies washed up in the harbour. It is such a lie and a lot of nonesense. Mergirl likes to tease me about the town I grew up in but she lives here now and should have some loyalty, lol xx

I hope all you non Scots enjoyed your lesson in old Scots slang, some English people don't even know what we are saying at times. lol.

sorry thread please continue x


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## Captain Save (May 9, 2009)

That show you're describing, although I've never seen it, sounds a lot like Jerry Springer here in the US. There was no false hope of educational value or social responsibility concerning that show. It covers every conceivable situation to say, 'if what you're doing might be on Jerry, you're doing wrong.' If I'm not mistaken, the show won numerous awards for being 'The worst show on television.' It is an indictment of the viewing public that the show was on the air for over 14 years.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 9, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> Undrcovrbrothr, sometimes the cards are stacked against you. What you are describing sounds like groupthink, and it happens a lot more often than we'd like to think (scathing condemnation of celebrities who get fat and are unhappy with it). I've had this happen to me as well; approach a young lady, and because she is unsure of how her peers might react, she declines your offer of companionship and proceeds to tell the story of your interest to her peers. It doesn't take long for you to become an untouchable in the peer group if all are in unspoken agreement to conform to perceived norms. In short, it's not the girl you're dating; it's all her friends and their opinions as well. If it sounds like high school, it's because I haven't forgotten the lessons I learned; the boat, of course, isn't much different.
> 
> Of course, in time, she usually will become mature enough to not give a shit what her friends think.



It IS like high school, and we can understand that, being men and seeing the group mentality firsthand. I remember going out with a friend of mine from work down to this club in Charleston he called an "old head" club which was for more mature people. I was the only white man in the whole place, but it was a great time just to go with him and shake things up a bit. Turns out that the only people that would dance with me were not with a group- not a surprise to me, but hey... and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. To be fair, who's going to do that? Not many people, but change comes one act at a time, affecting everyone. That's part of living life each and every day!!


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> All the straight white guys I know would date Beyonce in a second, they should be so lucky. Maybe in Scotland we just think if someone is hot they are hot and race/culture isn't the issue. Stereotypes are stupid like what you said about people thinking black guys have big dongs, the one I dated had a tiny dagger no bigger than my thumb so that throws that steroetype right out the window!.lol. I don't think these stereotypes are exclusively towards black people. It can even happen regardless of coulour, eg. people thinking if you are fat you are lazy etc. I spent three months living in Stockholm, Sweden in 2001, through a friend I had met over there one of her friends invited me over to dinner because she'd never met a Scottish person before. When I arrived at her house and she opened her front door to me, she looked at me disappointed and said, o'h I thought you would have red hair? Ok I know that isn't serious or harmful in any way but can you imagine if I had turned round and said to my ex, oh I thought you'd have a big cock? I suppose it is kind of different when someones manhood is at stake. Just so no-one thinks I'm being racist here, I've also dated a white Scottish guy with a tiny cock too.



Small cocks know no color. LOL I think that thing about Scots having red hair is a european thing. It wouldn't have occurred to me at all. I was rather shocked a long time ago when I saw thru british teevee shows about how that's such a big deal. That seems silly to me. i guess every culture has their "taboo" thing.



undrcovrbrothr said:


> Yes, but the assumptions go both ways- I have seen black women not even realize that I am looking right at them, admiring their beauty, as if I don't even exist. This is an all too common problem, and would really dissapear if there was more communication. However, these social barriers that have been put up a lot of times are quite annoying. This is not a problem in other countries, however. When I went to Africa or Antigua just this week, everything was completely normal, and I didn't feel that barrier AT ALL.



Are you sure it's not cause they weren't just thinking you were some creepy dude staring at them? You know we kinda dislike that...well I don't like that. Staring is creepy.



LillyBBBW said:


> Ok then. Why in the world are you attracted to fat black women? What if you weren't attracted to them, would you date one anyway just because she's nice? I really feel that visceral desires in general are overdressed. I really would love to come to a place in the linear universe where it would be OK for people to desire who they desire without needing their preference to be right and everyone else's to be wrong. Within the confines of consenting adults of course. I think overall this attitude is what muddies the waters and begets more people needing to defend the morality of their desires with proclamations that do more harm than good.
> 
> I understand that otherness but there is a difference between finding someone attractive and actually being attracted to them. Sure there are a lot of cultural idiots out there but you and I seem to do okay despite them as far as dating interracially goes. You learn how to weed them out but if we weren't attracted at all to white men we wouldn't have to bother. We could just simply say no and spout off any blanket stereotype reason or noble purpose we like, just like everyone else does. Or we can incense the crowd and say we don't find white men attractive, that would be pretty. :smitten: Like I mentioned before, I think attraction is visceral. There may be some people who would probably just never really considered it. I theorize that those numbers would be few. Most people just like what they like and the culture is either a plus or an obstacle.
> 
> EDA: Here's some irony for you. I went to a bbw dance in CT and was hanging with my friend, a white woman. This black man approaches us from across the room. As he draws near he walks right up to my friend and asks her to dance. She stiffens a little and says no. She's not attracted to black men. He steps aside but can't stop looking at her. She gets really uncomfortable and leaves to go to the ladies room. I felt so bad for the guy the way she dissed him that I looked at him and offed him a half hearted little smile. His face sobered right up and he turned his head abruptly. Then he walked off without a word. It's a crazy azzed world.



I see what you are saying. You've got some good points there. I just wonder you know, to listen to my nonblack friends talk about how hot they think so and so's ass is and all the things they'd do to it, but to not actually consider dating her because she's black....it means they are over-riding their visceral attraction or as you say, they aren't really attracted.

I have to wonder tho if they don't date black women because think they wouldn't be able to satisfy like a brother could...okay so maybe it's just ego and nothing more. I've never asked them to justify themselves to me cause they don't have to, but I do wonder. 



mergirl said:


> See, i dont see the problem with saying that in general you dont find white/black men/women attractive??
> Its a preference just as liking fat/thin blah blah etc..
> Just because i am not attracted to thin people doesn mean i HATE thin people. So what would be the harm in saying you are not attracted to a race/ colour of person. Its honest and time saving for ALL!!
> Oh..and on this note.. me and GD were talking and i realised that although i have no preference racially for women i realise i prefer Black men. I'm not really sure why this is though..I shant be stealing any though, so no worries!



Cause when people say they don't find a particular race attractive or if they only date within their own race it seems racist. 



undrcovrbrothr said:


> Ahh, but as I said in my first post, a majority of BBW women where I lived were black, and they really didn't give me a chance- and it was overt, not something I automatically assumed. They felt weird that a white man approached them and found them interesting, so maybe it was partly because of shock. That isn't healthy for society- we need to recognize that the past is buried, and we're moving on. These actions aren't based on just preferences, though- they are based upon what has happened in the past and how others will judge in these cases. Sure, I'll give the leeway for preference, but when the numbers are supremely stacked against me for other reasons, I would worry.



On the one hand we do need to learn to be less racist as a country and that goes for all of us, but on the other, those couple hundred years of slavery is not something I think we should bury or forget. Millions of people over dozens of generations have been affected by it in very deep ways. You can't just tell an entire group of people to just get over it. The effects of it have been too nuanced for that to just magically happen. 

Yes, black women can and do say they don't date white guys either, but you know, get over it.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Are you sure it's not cause they weren't just thinking you were some creepy dude staring at them? You know we kinda dislike that...well I don't like that. Staring is creepy.



I didn't use the word "stare", nor did I imply it either... normally all it takes is eye contact and a smile and/or a nod for someone to recognize it, and yet more often than not I can tell by the reaction on the face and body expression as to the feelings of the other person. It is just natural reaction, not some staring and leering action as you make it out to be.




olwen said:


> On the one hand we do need to learn to be less racist as a country and that goes for all of us, but on the other, those couple hundred years of slavery is not something I think we should bury or forget. Millions of people over dozens of generations have been affected by it in very deep ways. You can't just tell an entire group of people to just get over it. The effects of it have been too nuanced for that to just magically happen.
> 
> Yes, black women can and do say they don't date white guys either, but you know, get over it.



Well, slavery was an integral part of African colonies and the Carribean for many, many more years, and somehow it hasn't been buried or forgotten, while at the same time the people have not let it be a reason to avoid normal interaction between races. In those places, people had the same treatment or worse, and yet I found overwhelming amounts of kindness and friendliness. Therefore, I must conclude that it is a unique problem to America, and somehow attitudes must change.

I'm not going to "get over it", the same way that someone here would not "get over it" if they were told that someone doesn't date big/fat so and so. I would never be rude enough to discount anyone right off the bat in such a fashion, just my opinion.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Cause when people say they don't find a particular race attractive or if they only date within their own race it seems racist.



See, i think people are so scared of being seen as racist they dont say how they feel and pussyfoot around issues and are not being honest with themselves or anybody. I think this can actually cause racism. If somebody said to me, generally i find black people more attractive than white people, i would be ok with that. If it wasn't just about looks and there was some sort of pollitical, fear ridden, or culturarally ignorant reason behind this then i would be a bit pissed off, yes. I dont think its racist as its about physical attraction not how much you like/respect a person. I cant use the example of race because i dont have a preference but I am more attracted to fat people than thin, i would only date fat people but i dont hate thin people, i am not afraid of thin people and .."I have thin Friends" -which proves it!


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## LillyBBBW (May 10, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> Ahh, but as I said in my first post, a majority of BBW women where I lived were black, and they really didn't give me a chance- and it was overt, not something I automatically assumed. They felt weird that a white man approached them and found them interesting, so maybe it was partly because of shock. That isn't healthy for society- we need to recognize that the past is buried, and we're moving on. These actions aren't based on just preferences, though- they are based upon what has happened in the past and how others will judge in these cases. Sure, I'll give the leeway for preference, but when the numbers are supremely stacked against me for other reasons, I would worry.



When I went to London I saw a sister in a mall with a hard assed 'fro. It looked so good and healthy on her. Here where I'm from if you like someone's hair, bag or some other thing you can just say so. People here love compliments on hard work or matters of personal taste and skill. The person will respond with a thank you, you can ask where they got the thing, etc. I told this British ( I assume) black woman that I loved her hair and she gave me the meanest look. "WTF! Who do you think you are lady?" was my initial thought. My local habit is to see people on the street, I speak, say hello, goodmorning, whatever and people usually respond - not so in London. I refused to act like I was committing some horrible act so I continued my assault on the British poputlation the whole time I was there. 

In many places here in America the mindset is still very segregated. So much so in some places that if a white person begins to approach you it becomes immediately suspect. I have relatives that live in such regions. For people who live under such conditions, EVERYTHING looks like racism by the way. Late mail men look like racism. I would think someone of that kind of mindset would be astonished at having a white man come on to them. It would be like a Massachusetts state trooper bringing you flowers and an apology in person to your front door. I'd be ready to fall over. 

You can't expect people to suddenly alight about singing freedom songs after years of living in crude conditions and poor expectations. The response has already been conditioned over years of experiences. Actually having to think about it and judge individuals according to what they do rather than the color of their skin becomes too tedious a task. No one wants to be bothered. It was much easier to just paint them all with the broad brush and go on with your life safe rather than sorry. It's much easier than having to sort them out all the time so the consideration gets shot down. These attitudes can change over time but it's going to take more than just one person with a yen for black women. The good news is those attitudes and the people with them seem to be becoming more and more irrelevant, at least in my area.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 10, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> When I went to London I saw a sister in a mall with a hard assed 'fro. It looked so good and healthy on her. Here where I'm from if you like someone's hair, bag or some other thing you can just say so. People here love compliments on hard work or matters of personal taste and skill. The person will respond with a thank you, you can ask where they got the thing, etc. I told this British ( I assume) black woman that I loved her hair and she gave me the meanest look. "WTF! Who do you think you are lady?" was my initial thought. My local habit is to see people on the street, I speak, say hello, goodmorning, whatever and people usually respond - not so in London. I refused to act like I was committing some horrible act so I continued my assault on the British poputlation the whole time I was there.



Big city like that? Much different, I'd imagine due to the sheer number of people... a lot of the niceties get lost because everyone gets used to others being rude or bad-natured. Assault? LOL That's a funny picture, like a friendly cannon aimed at people all over 



LillyBBBW said:


> In many places here in America the mindset is still very segregated. So much so in some places that if a white person begins to approach you it becomes immediately suspect. I have relatives that live in such regions. For people who live under such conditions, EVERYTHING looks like racism by the way. Late mail men look like racism. I would think someone of that kind of mindset would be astonished at having a white man come on to them. It would be like a Massachusetts state trooper bringing you flowers and an apology in person to your front door. I'd be ready to fall over.



You see, that's troubling me most days, and that's what I was talking about in my posts. I actually WANT to make every effort to change things, but change is a two way street. I've been surprised a couple of times by wonderful black women who just made my day and gave me hope (a really big smile and some awesome reparte), but then it all sinks when the rest of the time it is same old, same old. I remain positive, though, as it sounds like you do. I refuse to believe that there is an excuse for this behavior based upon the past- that sort of excuse has got to go, and people have to be accountable for their own character. To those who have blown my mind by being in the minority, bless all of you!



LillyBBBW said:


> You can't expect people to suddenly alight about singing freedom songs after years of living in crude conditions and poor expectations. The response has already been conditioned over years of experiences. Actually having to think about it and judge individuals according to what they do rather than the color of their skin becomes too tedious a task. No one wants to be bothered. It was much easier to just paint them all with the broad brush and go on with your life safe rather than sorry. It's much easier than having to sort them out all the time so the consideration gets shot down. These attitudes can change over time but it's going to take more than just one person with a yen for black women. The good news is those attitudes and the people with them seem to be becoming more and more irrelevant, at least in my area.



That's great news anyways!!! It is not just about the women, although it is what started this whole topic... I'm always out with a mix of people, and so I cannot relate to how it must be for many others who segregate themselves. When I go around town, I see people as people... sure, every once in a while I become really frustrated by people and how they act, but I come back to the positive aspects and don't let it get me down. That's why I like what you have to say very much, I guess... you understand both sides and can express the frustrations extremely well!


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

See, i dont get why people would hold a grudge because of something someone elses ancesters did to our ancesters. Over a million of my VERY recent ancesters were slaughtered in camps during ww2. I hold no anomosity towards Germans today because it wasn't todays Germans who killed the gypsies. Though, if someone was to treat me differently today because of my race of dislike me because of it then i would have an excuse to be angry. Even my father was treated like shit because he was Roma and i have seen that to hold onto that sort of bitterness against people (in this case all non roma) is just not productive. I saw what it did to him..Going around not trusting anyone, being filled with anger, resentment, fear and hate. The buck stops here. I decided this. I am not going to let the anger pass on through me even though his anxiety has.


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## GoldenDelicious (May 10, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> When I went to London I saw a sister in a mall with a hard assed 'fro. It looked so good and healthy on her. Here where I'm from if you like someone's hair, bag or some other thing you can just say so. People here love compliments on hard work or matters of personal taste and skill. The person will respond with a thank you, you can ask where they got the thing, etc. I told this British ( I assume) black woman that I loved her hair and she gave me the meanest look. "WTF! Who do you think you are lady?" was my initial thought. My local habit is to see people on the street, I speak, say hello, goodmorning, whatever and people usually respond - not so in London. I refused to act like I was committing some horrible act so I continued my assault on the British poputlation the whole time I was there.




Lilly, please know that all British people are not like this. Some people love compliments from strangers however might not believe you and think you were taking the piss. British people generally think it is very vain and big headed to appear overly confident or pleased with themselves and being confident can often be confused with being arrogant. We are more modest and likely to be embarrassed when someone says we look good or wonder what their ulterior motive is for giving the compliment. It can be a self confidence thing. The Brits tend not to like people who are boastful or too successful. It's madness I know but true none the less. I also think London can be a harsh place full of untrusting people because it is a fast paced city. I've been there a few times and the first time I went with my mum, she had her purse stolen from her bag. I have relatives who live there and they said it took them a long time to make friends when they first moved there.

Some people think, small town people have a small town mentality and city folks are more open minded because they tend to be more diverse. I am from a small town and I think people are pretty friendly here. I work in Glasgow and most of the time people are quite friendly there too. I think you were unlucky with the stiff Brits you met, but then I would be rather biased given that I am Scottish and not English, we are all British but we are not the same. 

It could also be that this woman heard your American accent and decided not to like you. A lot of Brits don't like Americans, they have a reputation for being loud, arrogant and thinking they are the best at everything. I personally don't think this is true as I have been to America and met a lot of really nice people. I also was good friends with an American guy when I lived in Sweden and he was none of these things. The fact your previous president was a dim witted, war mongering prick didn't help American relations either.

I hope you visit Scotland some time and get a chance to experience Scottish hospitality, and I don't mean the touristy Edinbrugh type places, beautiful but a bit commercial and tacky at times .


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## LillyBBBW (May 10, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> That's great news anyways!!! It is not just about the women, although it is what started this whole topic... I'm always out with a mix of people, and so I cannot relate to how it must be for many others who segregate themselves. When I go around town, I see people as people... sure, every once in a while I become really frustrated by people and how they act, but I come back to the positive aspects and don't let it get me down. That's why I like what you have to say very much, I guess... you understand both sides and can express the frustrations extremely well!





mergirl said:


> See, i dont get why people would hold a grudge because of something someone elses ancesters did to our ancesters. Over a million of my VERY recent ancesters were slaughtered in camps during ww2. I hold no anomosity towards Germans today because it wasn't todays Germans who killed the gypsies. Though, if someone was to treat me differently today because of my race of dislike me because of it then i would have an excuse to be angry. Even my father was treated like shit because he was Roma and i have seen that to hold onto that sort of bitterness against people (in this case all non roma) is just not productive. I saw what it did to him..Going around not trusting anyone, being filled with anger, resentment, fear and hate. The buck stops here. I decided this. I am not going to let the anger pass on through me even though his anxiety has.



In some places in the US people still use the N word. As a black person living in that region you're used to having people call you that. I remembe back in the 70's during the bussing crisis here in MA, grown people in protest showed up at schools to throw rubbish at black school children as they got off their bus to go to school. We're talking elementary school children being called the N word and told to go home by grown folks. *I* remember this. I wasn't a part of that but the message was clear that black children were unwelcome and I was slated to attend that school the following year. My mother was horrified. I mean, what kind of person would take time off from their day to hurl rubbish at 9 year olds? It's sick. 

Anyway that was just an unfortunate incident among many that happened in my city while I was growing up. These incidents are condemned immediately by everyone but there are some places where this is much more common and even acceptable. At work we were talking about a school somewhere in S. Carolina that up until a few years ago annually held two seperate proms, one for black and one for white students. A. few. years. ago. For many people this isn't some crazy story grandpa told or a movie you saw on tv or the news. It's something that has to be kept in the forfront of their mind every time they walk out their front door. Signs on the street in neighborhoods that say "NO BLACKS" or some other derogatory missive that has never been taken down. It's not old news to them.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> In some places in the US people still use the N word. As a black person living in that region you're used to having people call you that. I remembe back in the 70's during the bussing crisis here in MA, grown people in protest showed up at schools to throw rubbish at black school children as they got off their bus to go to school. We're talking elementary school children being called the N word and told to go home by grown folks. *I* remember this. I wasn't a part of that but the message was clear that black children were unwelcome and I was slated to attend that school the following year. My mother was horrified. I mean, what kind of person would take time off from their day to hurl rubbish at 9 year olds? It's sick.
> 
> Anyway that was just an unfortunate incident among many that happened in my city while I was growing up. These incidents are condemned immediately by everyone but there are some places where this is much more common and even acceptable. At work we were talking about a school somewhere in S. Carolina that up until a few years ago annually held two seperate proms, one for black and one for white students. A. few. years. ago. For many people this isn't some crazy story grandpa told or a movie you saw on tv or the news. It's something that has to be kept in the forfront of their mind every time they walk out their front door. Signs on the street in neighborhoods that say "NO BLACKS" or some other derogatory missive that has never been taken down. It's not old news to them.


Right. A few years back in Ireland sort of the same thing happened. Adults shouting at kids and throwing things because of their religious denomonation. Fucked up indeed. Also there are seperate schools for catholic and protestent kids here. I think fucked up, though the catholic church thinks its a good thing. There are always going to be the minority of arseholes and there are unfortunately still the reminants left of the bad old days, fucking rediculous crap like seperate proms. If a sign said 'no blacks' in my street i would just take it down.. i dont see why these relics are left to rot in sight, unless for some kind of statement. I can see why people are sore and angry. It was a fucking disgrace that adults were throwing things at kids. A fucking disgrace. Do you think this would be allowed in America now though? I think we have to look at the ways in which things have moved forward. I will never know what it was/is like to be black in America though no matter how often i listen to Bessy Smith or read Alice walker because i am not a Black American, so i really dont have any buisness in trying to understand quite how these fucking disgraceful things affected/affect people. Simply i will never really know and neither will anyone unless they have expereinced it. I can experience empathy though and we have our own monsters here too as a society ie. The religious bigotry, which actually i dont really understand. To be honest i think half the time people who are the bigots dont really understand it either. I used to live in the south side of Glasgow, an area which has a large pakistani/Indian population. BNP groups have tried on many occassions to stir up shit there but to no avail. There has been a huge piece of graffitti sprayed on a wall on one of the main streets for over 10 year, with two hands, one black and one white, clenched together and above it reads "Black and white-Unite". It always makes me happy and proud whenever i go past it because even though there has been unrest amongst people in the past, the community has worked together to try to make it a nice place to live for everyone. eg. There have been community gardens built etc. Maby though, the reason it works better here is because its a smaller area or because the history isn't the same as it has been in America. Anyway,, i think i am rambling now. what was the point of this thread again? Oh yeah.. erm contrast is nice.. yes!


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> The fact your previous president was a dim witted, war mongering prick didn't help American relations either.



We're recovering rather nicely from this dark period, have no fear  The farthest I ever made it north was Stratford-on-Avon, so I missed Scotland. One of these days, though!!  If you see a MacLean or a Kerr, think of me!  LOL


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

Also, in Italy a few years ago a Romany settlement was burnt to the ground by the government. This is just one act of disrespect and violence i can think of that still happens to the Roma people. Its not an 'in the past thing' it still happens. I actually met an Italian guy who was working on a building site over here and he was talking about how 'everybody hates the fucking gypsies' ..hmm. He was a dick and i'm not going to let him ruin it for anyone else, no matter what his fucked up opinion was.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> See, i dont get why people would hold a grudge because of something someone elses ancesters did to our ancesters.




This is because you're a broad-minded Glaswegian. I do not know if it's true, but I keep hearing (and reading) that back in the Highlands, there are still a lot of people who are steamed about the Glencoe Massacre.



LillyBBBW said:


> In some places in the US people still use the N word.



 And in a lot of other places they may not _use_ the word, but they _think_ it. I doubt we'll ever be rid of racism, because humans seem to be hard-wired for tribalism: if you're not from my tribe, you're my enemy. Still, that's no reason not to keep trying.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> This is because you're a broad-minded Glaswegian. I do not know if it's true, but I keep hearing (and reading) that back in the Highlands, there are still a lot of people who are steamed about the Glencoe Massacre.



To be honest, i'd be surprised if that many scottish people even know about the Glencoe Massacre! There is a certain amount of anomosity towards the English from the scots though, not so much that it would stop Scottish and English people dating or anything.. There is a line in the 'British' (English really) National anthem "God save the queen" that says "Rebellious scots we will crush". haha.. so you can see why we are kinna wary.


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> I didn't use the word "stare", nor did I imply it either... normally all it takes is eye contact and a smile and/or a nod for someone to recognize it, and yet more often than not I can tell by the reaction on the face and body expression as to the feelings of the other person. It is just natural reaction, not some staring and leering action as you make it out to be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Way to miss the point. 



mergirl said:


> See, i dont get why people would hold a grudge because of something someone elses ancesters did to our ancesters. Over a million of my VERY recent ancesters were slaughtered in camps during ww2. I hold no anomosity towards Germans today because it wasn't todays Germans who killed the gypsies. Though, if someone was to treat me differently today because of my race of dislike me because of it then i would have an excuse to be angry. Even my father was treated like shit because he was Roma and i have seen that to hold onto that sort of bitterness against people (in this case all non roma) is just not productive. I saw what it did to him..Going around not trusting anyone, being filled with anger, resentment, fear and hate. The buck stops here. I decided this. I am not going to let the anger pass on through me even though his anxiety has.



Look, my grandmother and my mom are old enough to remember the segregated south. They grew up with this stuff. I have been discriminated against myself. Do any of us hold a grudge over all white people? No, of course not, and we don't operate from a place of suspicion, but we know racist behavior when we see it from both sides and we still have to deal with it in our daily lives. Some things you can help and some things you can't.

You have to understand that in this country racism was and still is institutionalized to some degree. It does get better, but it's just not going to go away any time soon. This country is huge and each region has it's own values and mores that are different from each other. For example, Texas is mostly conservative republican while New York is mostly liberal democrat. Tho try telling a liberal democrat they just did or said something racist and see what happens. Ho boy. Some places are just more racist than others. 

Parents pass on their values systems to their kids and in some places where there are no people of color the fears white folks have are very much alive, and in places like inner cities where racism is institutionalized (i.e. a public school not getting the same kind of funding as a suburban public school, which means the state legislature has made a conscious decision to keep minority kids at a disadvantage) the people of color live it. 

Yes sometimes both sides go too far or assume too much, but it's just not easy to let go of your upbringing when it's justified a thousand small ways in your daily lives. I go into a bodega (a corner grocery store) with a white friend believe me, the middle eastern guy who runs the store is going to follow me around instead of my white friend to make sure I don't steal anything. I just have to deal with that. 

Tho I will say, no one followed me around in the bodega in a small town in Vermont, which was a refreshing change. But that's what I mean, it's a long way from here and they do things different up there. The people were friendly and didn't seem to notice my race, but I also didn't see any people of color while I was there tho and I wonder if those attitudes would change if there were a lot of us living there. Maybe maybe not.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

yeah, i understand it. I just dont 'get' it. I'm not American, so i never will. In the same way a lot of Americans dont understand the Problems in Ireland and romanticise them, even funding the I.R.A. Because the Americans funding/supporting 'the cause' dont actually live there/have friends who live there so, they cant see or understand the day to day fear and hardship that people there went through/still go through to a lesser extent. I think things steeped in history actually have to be experienced to be understood, though i do think people need to work together to find solutions to the problems and this includes listening, hearing and understanding as well as you can and being honest and exploring problems without drowning in them.


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> yeah, i understand it. I just dont 'get' it. I'm not American, so i never will. In the same way a lot of Americans dont understand the Problems in Ireland and romanticise them, even funding the I.R.A. Because the Americans funding/supporting 'the cause' dont actually live there/have friends who live there so, they cant see or understand the day to day fear and hardship that people there went through/still go through to a lesser extent. I think things steeped in history actually have to be experienced to be understood, though i do think people need to work together to find solutions to the problems and this includes listening, hearing and understanding as well as you can and being honest and exploring problems without drowning in them.



Ah gotcha. 

I'm not gonna lie, I have no idea about those problems. Never bothered to learn about it. But its not hard at all for me to imagine american's being ignorant about the rest of the world. We're like that sometimes. Sad but true. 

Re contrast in relationships, Vive la difference.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Way to miss the point.



Ohh, no, I didn't miss the point. You implied that I might have been staring or leering, which to me indicates that you thought I was in the wrong, and I quote:



olwen said:


> "Are you sure it's not cause they weren't just thinking you were some creepy dude staring at them? You know we kinda dislike that...well I don't like that. Staring is creepy."



Secondly, you said:



olwen said:


> On the one hand we do need to learn to be less racist as a country and that goes for all of us, but on the other, those couple hundred years of slavery is not something I think we should bury or forget. Millions of people over dozens of generations have been affected by it in very deep ways. You can't just tell an entire group of people to just get over it. The effects of it have been too nuanced for that to just magically happen.



1. A couple hundred years of slavery is not something we should forget. I countered with examples from other countries and how they radically differ.

2. You can't tell an entire group of people to just get over it. This means that there is an automatic excuse mechanism to treat people like they are automatically guilty, to sever ties to a certain group of people, to fall back on excuses for unacceptable behavior? I know I'd say something to someone who did that, but do others in the same position have the moral courage to speak up? Even Lilly did when talking with her sister about it and her judgment, and that makes a difference.



olwen said:


> Yes, black women can and do say they don't date white guys either, but you know, get over it.



Get over it... hard to miss that point either. We should just all answer everyone's questions with "Get over it" or "that's the way it is"... not exactly a way to exist. 




olwen said:


> Parents pass on their values systems to their kids and *in some places where there are no people of color the fears white folks have are very much alive*, and in places like inner cities where racism is institutionalized (i.e. a public school not getting the same kind of funding as a suburban public school, which means *the state legislature has made a conscious decision to keep minority kids at a disadvantage*) the people of color live it.
> 
> Tho I will say, *no one followed me around in the bodega in a small town in Vermont, which was a refreshing change. But that's what I mean, it's a long way from here and they do things different up there.* The people were friendly and didn't seem to notice my race, but I also didn't see any people of color while I was there tho and I wonder if those attitudes would change if there were a lot of us living there. Maybe maybe not.



I'm originally from Vermont, the whitest state in the Union. I'm not going to say that racism doesn't exist, just like anyone from say Houston couldn't say that racism doesn't exist despite the large minority population. I'm not jaded like many because I grew up with a good family and the value of all people being very important. I didn't start off my life with parents who said that "those people" were bad. My ancestors came from New England and Canada, so the culture of the South is pretty much a tale told from others.

You are confusing minority kids with lower income neighborhoods, by the way. Poorer neghborhoods suffer because they are poor, not because of the racial makeup of the community, btw.

So in sum total, I'm an eternal optimist. I'm not giving up on a great future where we all can come together. Like I said, I'm not jaded... don't put a label on me, cause it won't stick.


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> Ohh, no, I didn't miss the point. You implied that I might have been staring or leering, which to me indicates that you thought I was in the wrong, and I quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you haven't had to deal with incipient racism first hand while I have, and as you say, the stories you heard were tales told by others. Interesting.

I am a minority who went to schools in a poor neighborhood and lived in a not so poor neighborhood. (Thank you rent control) The differences are stark. The public high school I went to in Harlem didn't have the same computer equipment as the public high school I went to on the Upper West Side for a summer. The fact is minorities tend to live in poorer neighborhoods in big cities. That reasoning is fine in a place where everyone is white and they are divided by class, but when you throw in that color variable whether you like it or not, it's not as simple as class. If one race of people is always poorer and they are not evenly represented in government, there's something wrong. If you can't see that or choose to ignore that then yeah, you miss the point. Easy to live in a happy little fairy tale when there's no big bad wolf.


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## LillyBBBW (May 10, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> Ohh, no, I didn't miss the point. You implied that I might have been staring or leering, which to me indicates that you thought I was in the wrong, and I quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What can be more comforting and affirming that to be able to put a hand on a good friend's shoulder as a show of support? That's such a comforting gesture unless of course the person has a sunburn on their back. The moment I touch her she's going to jump and there's going to be pain. I agree with everything you're saying undrcovrbrothr but there's a portion of your responses that make me just a little uneasy. You seem to me to have this righteous sense of right and wrong, which overall is a good thing but at times I feel it discounts out of hand the legitimate pains of others. By placing a hand on the shoulder of a friend clearly I've done nothing wrong personally but it does no good to reminder her while she's crying. There are other ways to get a message across without crossing someone's personal boundaries even if those boundaries seem excessive to you. And just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of leering or anything like that. Just that I think the things being discussed here deserve to be acknowledged and taken in to account. Otherwise this need for understanding comes off as self serving without any regard or acknowledgement of the PEOPLE behind this who are real.


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 10, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I agree with everything you're saying undrcovrbrothr but there's a portion of your responses that make me just a little uneasy. You seem to me to have this righteous sense of right and wrong, which overall is a good thing but at times I feel it discounts out of hand the legitimate pains of others. By placing a hand on the shoulder of a friend clearly I've done nothing wrong personally but it does no good to reminder her while she's crying. There are other ways to get a message across without crossing someone's personal boundaries even if those boundaries seem excessive to you. And just to be clear, I'm not accusing you of leering or anything like that. Just that I think the things being discussed here deserve to be acknowledged and taken in to account. Otherwise this need for understanding comes off as self serving without any regard or acknowledgement of the PEOPLE behind this who are real.



I have no problems with discussing this topic in a logical way, and accounting for the pain of others... I can accept that, for sure.

However, it is all in how it is done. I felt like my opinions were totally invalidated, and to a degree the implications that I was somehow doing something wrong, and that what I feel is invalid- aka "get over it"- really bothers me. You approached it the right way, and I think we were all better for it. Sure I am a lightning rod for right and wrong sometimes, but I'm not crass enough to be totally blind to gray areas or immune to criticism. I would hope that the same courtesy is extended to me, tis all. Thanks for pulling me down and back to Earth a little bit


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

undrcovrbrothr said:


> I have no problems with discussing this topic in a logical way, and accounting for the pain of others... I can accept that, for sure.
> 
> However, it is all in how it is done. I felt like my opinions were totally invalidated, and to a degree the implications that I was somehow doing something wrong, and that what I feel is invalid- aka "get over it"- really bothers me. You approached it the right way, and I think we were all better for it. Sure I am a lightning rod for right and wrong sometimes, but I'm not crass enough to be totally blind to gray areas or immune to criticism. I would hope that the same courtesy is extended to me, tis all. Thanks for pulling me down and back to Earth a little bit



Let's get something straight. When you say that racism can be a thing of the past if we all become as idealistic as you, then what you are essentially saying is "get over it." How is that not invalidating? 

I asked you if you were sure it wasn't just you because I find it hard to believe that every black woman in america you approach thumbs her nose up at you just because you're white. That's how you make it sound. I gotta wonder if it's something about your approach. Staring, talking, whatever, if it happens a lot then my "hmmmm" filter comes on. Sorry if that seems harsh to you, but there it is.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

i dunno.."Perverts against racism" has a nice ring to it! and the slogan will be "stare the world sesame street!!".


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Let's get something straight. When you say that racism can be a thing of the past if we all become as idealistic as you, then what you are essentially saying is "get over it." How is that not invalidating?



*I* didn't say that- I merely said that those in Africa and the Caribbean seem to have dealt with it a lot better than those in America from my experience. I didn't want to say it, but the Belgians committed some of the worst atrocities imaginable to people in Africa... and yet even now conditions are better for whites in Africa (save for maybe Zimbabwe because of Mugabe). All I am saying is that many could learn valuable lessons from Africans and others.



olwen said:


> I asked you if you were sure it wasn't just you because I find it hard to believe that every black woman in america you approach thumbs her nose up at you just because you're white. That's how you make it sound. I gotta wonder if it's something about your approach. Staring, talking, whatever, if it happens a lot then my "hmmmm" filter comes on. Sorry if that seems harsh to you, but there it is.



Did I say every? I never said every- so yet again there is a miscommunication which I didn't have with others here. My approach is fine- why can't you reconcile the fact that just maybe, attitudes in many parts of America need to change a lot more than my approach?


I just can't do this right now... suddenly things are being said that I never said, and it is very unwise for me to continue this debate here considering how much I like talking here. In summary, I love BBWs, plain and simple, and I have a lot of love for all, no matter what color. :wubu:


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Let's get something straight. When you say that racism can be a thing of the past if we all become as idealistic as you, then what you are essentially saying is "get over it." How is that not invalidating?
> 
> .


Maby not 'get over it' but HOW do we get over it? How do we move forward? On a personal level how could you move on from the hurt and pain caused by being treated badly because of your skin colour? Maby its not something you CAN move on from in this life especially if you still feel the hurt. In which case what steps do you think have to be put in place for future generations not to feel the way the way you do?


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Maby not 'get over it' but HOW do we get over it? How do we move forward? On a personal level how could you move on from the hurt and pain caused by being treated badly because of your skin colour? Maby its not something you CAN move on from in this life especially if you still feel the hurt. In which case what steps do you think have to be put in place for future generations not to feel the way the way you do?



Exactly. Those are good questions and that's what I'm saying. If we still have to deal with it, it won't go away. It's tough, and I don't have good answers. I know when I tell my niece she won't get anywhere as a black woman without a college education it perpetuates things, but it's also true...when that becomes less of an issue...I think having real people on teevee might help rather than stereotypes or polar opposite stereotypes. So much exposure for some people comes only from teevee, just like with fat people, having a positive presence in the media and not as a token would go a long way.


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

I thought of something else. If whites in this country understood about white privilege that would help, and Tim Wise's blog is a good place to start.

If minorities learned to stop acting like victims - when it really is an act - and to start taking responsibility for themselves it would go a long way on our end. Also, minority groups need to learn to support each other and the community, which some do and do really well, we just need more of that.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Exactly. Those are good questions and that's what I'm saying. If we still have to deal with it, it won't go away. It's tough, and I don't have good answers. I know when I tell my niece she won't get anywhere as a black woman without a college education it perpetuates things, but it's also true...when that becomes less of an issue...I think having real people on teevee might help rather than stereotypes or polar opposite stereotypes. So much exposure for some people comes only from teevee, just like with fat people, having a positive presence in the media and not as a token would go a long way.


Having a Black President is a very good start i feel as far as representation goes. I hold socialist beliefs and believe that everyone should be entitled to the same start in life.. where they go from there is up to them. To be honest, in the Uk, You are not going to have a good career without a degree whether you are black or white. Actually, even with a degree it can be tough. Though, i do think education is the key as you say. Do white people get far in America without a college degree? Or is this something we can only advise Black Americans of? From the American tv i HAVE seen i do think Black people are under represented and i'm sure negatively represented too. I used to discuss with my friends about why the show 'friends' had no Black people in it.. It was set in Newyork and the were just NO black characters.. not even incidental ones. I think actually the producers realised people were pissed off by this and introduced a 'Black' woman as Ross's girlfriend in the last series. I thought it was a bit if a cop out because she had very 'white' features and i often wondered if this was a concious decision by the producers or if it was just a coincidence. Anyway, yes..i think more Black characters on tv would be a start in this age of media though i guess for that you would need more imput from black tv producers with college degrees...
Yeah.. education.. totally.


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> I thought of something else. If whites in this country understood about white privilege that would help, and Tim Wise's blog is a good place to start.
> 
> If minorities learned to stop acting like victims - when it really is an act - and to start taking responsibility for themselves it would go a long way on our end. Also, minority groups need to learn to support each other and the community, which some do and do really well, we just need more of that.


ok cool.. i will check out that link..after my dinner. x


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## mergirl (May 10, 2009)

This is really interesting so far. I would like to read his books. I guess you could argue that there there can also be hetrosexual or male 'privilage' in society as well as white privalege. I think there are a lot of groups who might fit into this way of thinking.


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## olwen (May 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> This is really interesting so far. I would like to read his books. I guess you could argue that there there can also be hetrosexual or male 'privilage' in society as well as white privalege. I think there are a lot of groups who might fit into this way of thinking.



You are correct Madame. There is white privilege, male privilege and thin privilege. All of that is for other threads tho.


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## Tau (May 11, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> I'm not surprised you get hit on by skinny white guys (or anyone for that matter) you are a gorgeous woman! I can't believe the cheek of the fat guy who told you big women repulse him, what an arse. I had an experience once in a pub when I was standing at the bar waiting to buy some drinks. The bar was busy and this guy who was also standing waiting to be served began to chat to me as we waited. Let me set the scene... I was half the size I am now and could only be described as chubby, maybe bordering on the lower end of bbw. I had long blonde hair at the time, which was looking lovely, my make up was on to perfection, I was dressed very smart and was looking particularly hot that evening. The guy was average height, balding, needed a shave, average sized with a fairly large beer belly hanging over his trousers. His face was pretty average looking too. Any way he started chatting to me about how busy the pub was etc. I passed the time of day with the guy and was friendly and polite as I always am. Eventually we both got served by different bar tenders and as we went to go our seperate ways with drinks in hand, he turned to me and said...."Do you know something?, you are really nice and so pretty, if you just weren't so fat I might fancy you".
> 
> When I am being insulted I am quick witted at the time despite being hurt and upset at his comment so my reply was....." do you know something, you must be a really good singer" He smiled and said " o'h yeh, how come?" I said, "well my mum always taught me that everyone has at least one beautiful quality and I can clearly see you have fuck all else going for you". I gave him my best dirty look and walked away. His friends stood laughing at him but to be honest I was devastated and it ruined my night as I was far less thick skinned and confident as I am now. Men have such a cheek! It has been my experience that where I come from western men are often like this, I don't know if other cultures are different or if it is a cheauvanistic attitude that it is ok for the guy to be ugly and talentless but women have to have it all going on. Bolloks to them xx



Thanks GD  As to the rest of your tale - that dude was moron! *hugz*


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## Tau (May 11, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> EDA: Here's some irony for you. I went to a bbw dance in CT and was hanging with my friend, a white woman. This black man approaches us from across the room. As he draws near he walks right up to my friend and asks her to dance. She stiffens a little and says no. She's not attracted to black men. He steps aside but can't stop looking at her. She gets really uncomfortable and leaves to go to the ladies room. I felt so bad for the guy the way she dissed him that I looked at him and offed him a half hearted little smile. His face sobered right up and he turned his head abruptly. Then he walked off without a word. It's a crazy azzed world.



Lilly, I wish I could be as ok with that as you are cos reading that made me angry. 
I'm speaking as a black woman in an African context - I'm not claiming to understand the situation or the context anywhere else in the world - this is purely my take on the matter. There are too many black people who do not love themselves, their cultures or their community. They are ashamed of the skins they were born in and, in a mistaken attempt to 'better' themselves, many of these people seek to befriend/date/shag/marry white people. I want to be very clear here that I'm not against interracial dating, friendship or shaggery. What I'm against is black people thinking and believing that by only allowing themselves to have these relationships, by shunning any association with blackness or black people, they somehow become separted from their blackness and gain some kind of elusive status only available to people with white skins and those who move in their circles. I'm seriously against black men telling me that white women are better, are what they prefer because they're more intelligent, more sophisticated, classier, and more compassionate. It makes me furious to hear black men talking about how they need to avoid eyecontact with black chicks in the club cos they're on the hunt for 'that premium white meat.' :doh: Its not ok to speak about people like this, its not ok to reduce or elevate a racial group in this manner, _its not cool to ascribe value to people based on the colour of their skin_. And I don't like the way people refuse to discuss the issue and dismiss it and me as just another angry black woman spouting off cos she's bitter about being manless. As I've said before, I've been with men of nearly every race from a variety of different countries and my experiences with them have been, primarily, interactions with _people not skin colour_. You could say I shouldnt be bothered by the opinions, words and actions of others but I am. You could also say that race is a feature like any other and that being attracted to skin colour is the same as being attracted to a pair of large breasts or a six pack - I'm saying here its not the same. When somebody tells me they arent attracted to black/white men or women what I'm actually hearing you say is that you arent attracted to a vast number of mostly incorrect and offensive stereotypes because *how can the colour of a person make them more or less attractive??* Seriously, please enlighten me!


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## undrcovrbrothr (May 11, 2009)

Tau said:


> _its not cool to ascribe value to people based on the colour of their skin_.



Absolutely right on the nose 



Tau said:


> When somebody tells me they arent attracted to black/white men or women what I'm actually hearing you say is that you arent attracted to a vast number of mostly incorrect and offensive stereotypes because *how can the colour of a person make them more or less attractive??* Seriously, please enlighten me!



Hence, my angst, and why I loved Africa when I was there... I never thought in a million years I would enjoy it as much as I did because the movies are often negative. After having that great experience with Ugandans, Kenyans, and Djiboutians, I was forever changed. The guy I worked with so many years ago from Nigeria was EXACTLY the sort of person that I found there. Even in the smaller northern towns, it was the same... and then I come back here and wonder why it cannot be the same here.


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## hello2u (May 11, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> The thing is I think there truly is a place for cultural preservation. There are people of all cultures who believe it without being bigoted and I'm ok with it. I think it crosses the line when one is thinking no one else is supposed to choose differently or they're somehow defying their culture by intermarrying. Yes there are some, possibly most, whose prefference is soley based on attraction. My question is how far can we go to accuse someone of discounting a person solely on cultural bounds? If there are two wonderful men standing before me on bended knee, one is black and one is white, I'm going to choose the one I'm attracted to - even if the one I don't choose has stronger feelings for me than the other. No matter who I choose though, the other is going to accuse me of being racially biased.
> 
> My point is that people in general don't couple with someone simply because it's the right thing to do. They're going to go with their gut and probably spout all kinds of cultural hyperbole with it because it matches and it's what they've been taught to do. Those more willing to break the mold will pat themselves on the back for being culturally more open minded and bla bla bla when really the decision is being made by Mr. Johnson and doesn't have anything to do with some form of andvancement in thinking. And we haven't even begun to scratch the surface about the cultural stereotypes. There's a can of worms right there.




I am with someone who is not "white", and I do not "pat myself on the back" for it. I do not consider my self "progressive" or "advance" in my thinking. I consider myself lucky that a very beautiful, and damn intelligent woman actually likes my looks, and is willing to put up with my ass-hole ways. LOL. 

I do not know this "Mr. Johnson" (no offense please), but he was not at the party I met my partner. We were both there out of obligation to a mutual friend and were bored out of our minds, and that is the first bond we shared, and it progressed from there. I do however, believe your arguments are grounded on some truth. I just wanted to share my small experience of a person in a "interracial" relationship. I hate that word, it's like saying my fiance and I are of two different species, LOL.


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## hello2u (May 11, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't thik this behavior or mindset is all that uncommon. We tend to be focusing on it more so with black women but I think in general people can become scornful when it comes to dating. Midsized bbws feel ignored by FAs, we hear it all the time. A black/white man approaches someone of another race and gets blown off and they think it's obviously a racial issue, etc. People get angry when they feel they are just as deserving of attention and consideration as the next person. When it comes to attraction though it's not always a matter of mentally concious selection I don't think. But when you're angry, hurt or frustrated that doesn't much matter. I'm thinking that black women are getting a bad rep for something all of us do when the person we want passes us up for some one else. We wonder why.




I totally agree!!!!!!


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## hello2u (May 11, 2009)

mergirl said:


> See, i dont get why people would hold a grudge because of something someone elses ancesters did to our ancesters. Over a million of my VERY recent ancesters were slaughtered in camps during ww2. I hold no anomosity towards Germans today because it wasn't todays Germans who killed the gypsies. Though, if someone was to treat me differently today because of my race of dislike me because of it then i would have an excuse to be angry. Even my father was treated like shit because he was Roma and i have seen that to hold onto that sort of bitterness against people (in this case all non roma) is just not productive. I saw what it did to him..Going around not trusting anyone, being filled with anger, resentment, fear and hate. The buck stops here. I decided this. I am not going to let the anger pass on through me even though his anxiety has.




Problem is that there are residual effects left from slavery; we behave as we do because of acts done through slavery. Please understand, racism has been institutionalized in so many ways in my country (America),and it is not "something" you can place in a bottle, to be thrown into the sea to be forgotten or dismissed; surprisingly that bottle returns to shore. 

Understand as a country, NO a world we need to get past racism. In college I met so many many people from all over, and guess what? when we started to discuss race and cultural differences, it became clear there was a form of racism in their country. And because it was not marched about or talked about as much as here, perhaps, people not from their country figure it did not exist. But when politics and economics in their country came into play, it was clear to see which skin chroma had the upper hand in their country. As for the Carribeans, race is a factor, skin color among the non-whites is a factor. Listen, those conversations do happen and there is a feeling of unjustness; like conversations in a bedroom, they are only heard by those having them.

Racism is not as simple as looking out a window, and being able to say it is or isn't pouring rain; sometimes it's just a light misting in the air, that permeates all around it.


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## LillyBBBW (May 11, 2009)

Tau said:


> Lilly, I wish I could be as ok with that as you are cos reading that made me angry.
> I'm speaking as a black woman in an African context - I'm not claiming to understand the situation or the context anywhere else in the world - this is purely my take on the matter. There are too many black people who do not love themselves, their cultures or their community. They are ashamed of the skins they were born in and, in a mistaken attempt to 'better' themselves, many of these people seek to befriend/date/shag/marry white people. I want to be very clear here that I'm not against interracial dating, friendship or shaggery. What I'm against is black people thinking and believing that by only allowing themselves to have these relationships, by shunning any association with blackness or black people, they somehow become separted from their blackness and gain some kind of elusive status only available to people with white skins and those who move in their circles. I'm seriously against black men telling me that white women are better, are what they prefer because they're more intelligent, more sophisticated, classier, and more compassionate. It makes me furious to hear black men talking about how they need to avoid eyecontact with black chicks in the club cos they're on the hunt for 'that premium white meat.' :doh: Its not ok to speak about people like this, its not ok to reduce or elevate a racial group in this manner, _its not cool to ascribe value to people based on the colour of their skin_. And I don't like the way people refuse to discuss the issue and dismiss it and me as just another angry black woman spouting off cos she's bitter about being manless. As I've said before, I've been with men of nearly every race from a variety of different countries and my experiences with them have been, primarily, interactions with _people not skin colour_. You could say I shouldnt be bothered by the opinions, words and actions of others but I am. You could also say that race is a feature like any other and that being attracted to skin colour is the same as being attracted to a pair of large breasts or a six pack - I'm saying here its not the same. When somebody tells me they arent attracted to black/white men or women what I'm actually hearing you say is that you arent attracted to a vast number of mostly incorrect and offensive stereotypes because *how can the colour of a person make them more or less attractive??* Seriously, please enlighten me!



I don't know Tau. I'm not wired like that so I can't give you any first hand inside knowledge on how that works. My theory though is that being black, white or anything else is a physical feature. There are people who won't date short people, fat people, blondes, etc. I don't know how that works, all I know is that it happens but it doesn't necessarily mean they can't appreciate the human side of a short blonde woman but just not be physically attracted. Apparently that guy found my friend attractive but not me. His reaction was the work of an ape as we both know, but I prefer not to make assumptions about his motives. 

Not at all to discount what you're saying. I know that what you are getting at does happen in the world. I get lots of attention from men when I travel to European and Scandinavian countries. For years people joked about the idea of black women being exhotic mysteries or what have you in countries where they are scarce and I've seen it happen. So... should I assume that every time a white man approaches me this is what he's after, a cheap thrill ride? EVERY white man? I don't know that. I'm pretty good at weeding them out but I'm trying, though it's very difficult, to maintain a sense of centered sanity in this stereotype freak show circus we call life. It's why I didn't get all worked up about that guy at the club. It wasn't really worth that kind of energy. There are too many other more important fish in the sea to cross examine. I can't waste my time on him. Maybe that guy was ashamed of his race and thought my friend was as step up. Maybe he just felt more drawn to her features. Maybe I looked too much like a relative of his and it grossed him out. I'm forced to give the benefit of the doubt.


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## GutsGirl (May 11, 2009)

I'm not really sure how much contrast I _need_ in a real relationship... I tend to think male/female is a good enough contrast. 

Fetish-wise, I'm a teratophiliac (I'm attracted to humanoid 'monster men', which explains why I love horror movies so much!) and a trichophiliac (I'm attracted to hair on men... long hair, body hair, and hypertrichosis). Those are my contrasts, right there -- a partially-human/inhuman (and preferably hairy) male with a human female, with a vast strength difference between them -- so fetish-wise and fantasy-wise, I LOOOVE a high degree of contrast between romantic partners. 

Real-world-wise, I find a large range of body shapes/types in men attractive, from stick-thin (I once had a crush on a guy who was so thin you could see the line of his spinal column when he bent or crouched down... it was fascinating to me) to kind of meaty/chunky, and I like a wide range of heights, too, from a guy being no taller than me (5'6") to fairly tall. I think my physical preferences are being 'nailed down', so to speak, now that I'm in a real relationship and don't just have crushes on various guys.

Given that my boyfriend (who's average in weight and is around 6'1") is not a monster and doesn't have hypertrichosis, I love physical strength in a male partner and the idea of my partner being stronger than me (my boyfriend is strong enough to pick me up, which is great) and I love hair (my boyfriend really wants to grow his hair out long, and he has a beard/mustache). My bf likes contrast too -- he's an FA, so he is really interested in my fatty parts -- so I guess we work out well for each other. 

Strangely enough, body piercings, scarification, and tattoos are all really 'masculine' to me, so I find them far more attractive on a guy than on a woman... that's just me, though. My boyfriend likes piercings and tattoos on women (I don't have any... yet). So there's an example of where our likes are exactly the same but just directed towards the opposite sex. Funny world, huh?


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## Captain Save (May 11, 2009)

So much of this thread has been about racism, judgements and preconceived notions about others that the thought crossed my mind that this may not be what was intended by a discussion of contrast in a relationship. Race is by far one of the most scintillating contrasts, but is it really the most pertinent one? Is it the visual, the physical that means so much in the relationship? Initially, perhaps; this is what attracts in the beginning. After significant time has passed, what does that say about the relationship itself if that's all there is to go on? Surely after the passsage of years there should be much more common ground than complexion; if not, it's not a relationship: it's FWB.


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## Tau (May 12, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't know Tau. I'm not wired like that so I can't give you any first hand inside knowledge on how that works. My theory though is that being black, white or anything else is a physical feature. There are people who won't date short people, fat people, blondes, etc. I don't know how that works, all I know is that it happens but it doesn't necessarily mean they can't appreciate the human side of a short blonde woman but just not be physically attracted. Apparently that guy found my friend attractive but not me. His reaction was the work of an ape as we both know, but I prefer not to make assumptions about his motives.
> 
> Not at all to discount what you're saying. I know that what you are getting at does happen in the world. I get lots of attention from men when I travel to European and Scandinavian countries. For years people joked about the idea of black women being exhotic mysteries or what have you in countries where they are scarce and I've seen it happen. So... should I assume that every time a white man approaches me this is what he's after, a cheap thrill ride? EVERY white man? I don't know that. I'm pretty good at weeding them out but I'm trying, though it's very difficult, to maintain a sense of centered sanity in this stereotype freak show circus we call life. It's why I didn't get all worked up about that guy at the club. It wasn't really worth that kind of energy. There are too many other more important fish in the sea to cross examine. I can't waste my time on him. Maybe that guy was ashamed of his race and thought my friend was as step up. Maybe he just felt more drawn to her features. Maybe I looked too much like a relative of his and it grossed him out. I'm forced to give the benefit of the doubt.



Very, very well put. :bow: Your response has restored my calm


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## StarMoon (May 12, 2009)

On the original topic me being with a contrasting relationship would be too ironic, I rather a woman my compliment than my contrast


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## Tau (May 12, 2009)

I read an interesting article in Cosmo or something like it that said that for the vast majority of people on the planet, opposites do not attract. Most people find partners who are like themselves in as many ways as possible - including physical features. According to the article only very rare people found those who were physically opposite to them appealing at all. Clearly we're all pretty unique LOL!


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## StarMoon (May 12, 2009)

Tau said:


> *I read an interesting article in Cosmo or something like it that said that for the vast majority of people on the planet, opposites do not attract. Most people find partners who are like themselves in as many ways as possible - including physical features. *According to the article only very rare people found those who were physically opposite to them appealing at all. Clearly we're all pretty unique LOL!



That would make sense


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## TraciJo67 (May 12, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> So much of this thread has been about racism, judgements and preconceived notions about others that the thought crossed my mind that this may not be what was intended by a discussion of contrast in a relationship. Race is by far one of the most scintillating contrasts, but is it really the most pertinent one? Is it the visual, the physical that means so much in the relationship? Initially, perhaps; this is what attracts in the beginning. After significant time has passed, what does that say about the relationship itself if that's all there is to go on? Surely after the passsage of years there should be much more common ground than complexion; if not, it's not a relationship: it's FWB.



I've been with my tall, handsome Indian husband for 22 years (15 of them married) and although my initial attraction to him was definitely physical - I loved what I considered to be "exotic" about him - it is the very least of why we remain together. We are more alike than different. That is what has always worked for us. We have similar goals, beliefs, and life desires. It's as simple as that.


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## Captain Save (May 12, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I've been with my tall, handsome Indian husband for 22 years (15 of them married) and although my initial attraction to him was definitely physical - I loved what I considered to be "exotic" about him - it is the very least of why we remain together. We are more alike than different. That is what has always worked for us. We have similar goals, beliefs, and life desires. It's as simple as that.



This echoes what I have heard from others who were independent enough to make their relationship go the distance, despite exterior appearances, peer presure, and everything else that keeps people of different races apart. I have always found a much more rewarding experience when getting to know someone past visual features; the differences and similarities are crucial when they are not readily visible. Besides, after about three or four months, you become accustomed to someone's appearance and it becomes an unimportant detail, regardless of how stunningly attractive or how mind-numbingly plain it may be.


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## circeenoir (May 12, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> This echoes what I have heard from others who were independent enough to make their relationship go the distance, despite exterior appearances, peer presure, and everything else that keeps people of different races apart. I have always found a much more rewarding experience when getting to know someone past visual features; the differences and similarities are crucial when they are not readily visible. Besides, after about three or four months, you become accustomed to someone's appearance and it becomes an unimportant detail, regardless of how stunningly attractive or how mind-numbingly plain it may be.



How very true.....you can meet someone who may not be your 'type' but when you get to know that person, you find an attraction there.


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## Captain Save (May 12, 2009)

circeenoir said:


> How very true.....you can meet someone who may not be your 'type' but when you get to know that person, you find an attraction there.



Especially when opposites get together. Can you imagine an intellectual capitalist and an airhead socialist having what begins as polite dinner conversation? If they are zealous in their beliefs one can see that having steak knives at the table might be a bad idea; when they get under each other's skin they might end up having similar conversations twenty years later, never having found another sparring partner worth their time or effort, or having such good taste in wines.


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## olwen (May 12, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> So much of this thread has been about racism, judgements and preconceived notions about others that the thought crossed my mind that this may not be what was intended by a discussion of contrast in a relationship. Race is by far one of the most scintillating contrasts, but is it really the most pertinent one? Is it the visual, the physical that means so much in the relationship? Initially, perhaps; this is what attracts in the beginning. After significant time has passed, what does that say about the relationship itself if that's all there is to go on? Surely after the passsage of years there should be much more common ground than complexion; if not, it's not a relationship: it's FWB.



Well, the OP brought up race, so makes sense the thread would take that turn. I'd imagine race is most important for people who prefer to date within their own culture if their culture is most important to them, especially if there are aspects of their culture that are difficult to explain to outsiders. There could be language barriers too. 



Tau said:


> I read an interesting article in Cosmo or something like it that said that for the vast majority of people on the planet, opposites do not attract. Most people find partners who are like themselves in as many ways as possible - including physical features. According to the article only very rare people found those who were physically opposite to them appealing at all. Clearly we're all pretty unique LOL!



I've noticed that too and there have been studies done about how people tend to be attracted to people whose faces are similarly shaped...weird stuff.


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## Captain Save (May 12, 2009)

olwen said:


> Well, the OP brought up race, so makes sense the thread would take that turn. I'd imagine race is most important for people who prefer to date within their own culture if their culture is most important to them, especially if there are aspects of their culture that are difficult to explain to outsiders. There could be language barriers too.



All very true. Although I would respect their reasons for wanting to do so, I would nonetheless find it sad if they had to sacrifice their chances at being happy to stay within their cultural boundaries.


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## olwen (May 12, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> All very true. Although I would respect their reasons for wanting to do so, I would nonetheless find it sad if they had to sacrifice their chances at being happy to stay within their cultural boundaries.



You know, we talk about not limiting ourselves a lot around these parts, and I think maybe for people with strict limits, it isn't limiting. If that makes sense. Having boundaries might be more freeing for some in some way. I dunno...maybe we aren't all capable of growing in the same way. It could just be too much for some people to handle. Like putting a new driver on a speedway. Maybe that's an extreme example, but it came to mind...


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## Captain Save (May 12, 2009)

That example was definitely an excellent choice for me, as I know a budding driver. 
I also knew a young lady whose mother was very strict and kept her away from predatory men. When I met her she was 17, and had no strategy for dealing with 300 horny sailors. It didn't help that she was a very attractive blonde. She had too many choices to make, and made a lot of wrong choices; guys gossip as well. Because I worked with her and had to explain a lot, I called her Private Benjamin. She eventually turned herself around and married a BHM who treated her very well, and they are raising a family together.

After she got out of the military, she finally saw the movie and understood why I would laugh when she asked me who Private Benjamin was.


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