# Relationships with BHMs - Newbie needs your advice!



## dodobird (Oct 19, 2013)

Hey everyone! I've decided to de-lurk because I'm having some angst at the moment and it occurred to me that you lovely lot might be just the people to go to for some advice. Skip to the last paragraph of this post if you just want to lay some knowledge on me, or read on to see me go on about myself a bit first 

I'm a 22 year old FFA from jolly old England. I've always preferred chubbier guys but I've only recently realised that about myself, if you see what I mean. Like, a couple of years ago, if you'd shown me a random selection of guys my age and asked me to pick one to go on a date with, I'd probably have picked a BHM, but I probably wouldn't have been able to put my finger on what I liked about him. Now, thanks to a mixture of life experiences and the magic of Google (which brought me here!), I feel like I'm beginning to understand what I like and that there's nothing weird about it (the way you can start to feel there is when you're constantly being shown people you're "supposed" to find attractive and don't). It's exciting, in a way, I've started proudly announcing "I definitely prefer chubby guys" in conversations with my friends (in appropriate contexts, I mean, I don't just shout it when we're discussing Doctor Who or breakfast cereals or something). It's liberating to understand that about myself and to know that there are people out there who feel the same way, who are left cold by the hard, muscular bodies thrust in our faces by the media and like something they can cuddle.

But it's also left me feeling like I have a problem. In the last couple of years I've dated two gorgeous BHMs and with both of them I could feel that their weight was an issue I didn't know how to deal with in the context of the relationship. I'm still quite sad about the most recent one. He said no one had ever called him "sexy" before. We had a stupid fight one day because I greeted him with something like "Hey, gorgeous!" and he said I complimented him too much. I see where he was coming from, because I've dated guys who complimented me so frequently that it became meaningless and irritating. But, at the same time, he obviously didn't believe that I fancied him, so I was trying to make him see it.

He was so wary when we first met, like he thought I was pulling some elaborate and very time-consuming prank on the fat guy. Again, I understand, because I was bullied relentlessly for a few years at school (I've always been slim, but I have red hair and used to be even more socially awkward than I am now, and neither of those are good news when you're a teenager in mainstream education) and any time a guy even tried to talk to me I'd assume that he was setting me up for some kind of humiliation. But I've grown out of that paranoia now that I'm no longer surrounded by cruel, insecure teenagers and now I feel pretty good about myself - obviously what he went through was worse than what happened to me, for it to still be having this effect - and I have no idea how to approach the situation from the other side. It's also a little hurtful to have someone think you would be capable of being that cruel when you really care about them.

I tried really hard to be patient with him. In the end he dumped me because I don't want children. I can't decide if I think that's the real reason or not. I mean, if it is, it's a perfectly good one, but a few people I've talked to about it have said that that might be why he picked it: because it's such a logical way out. I mean, he knew that about me all along and he'd never had a problem with it before, and we weren't dating for that long. So maybe he suddenly realised he wanted kids... or maybe his constant panic finally peaked and he just jumped on a reason. Either way, his body was obviously the source of a lot of issues for him and for our relationship, which is a shame when I found it so attractive.

*So, to drill down to the bedrock of my question: how does one approach a relationship with a BHM who is self-conscious, even ashamed, about his weight? *Obviously a self-confident BHM would be a jackpot win for me, but so far I've had similar issues with two guys if there is a next time, I want to be ready. I'd really appreciate any advice you guys can give me


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## tankyguy (Oct 20, 2013)

dodobird said:


> *So, to drill down to the bedrock of my question: how does one approach a relationship with a BHM who is self-conscious, even ashamed, about his weight? *Obviously a self-confident BHM would be a jackpot win for me, but so far I've had similar issues with two guys if there is a next time, I want to be ready. I'd really appreciate any advice you guys can give me



Before I suggest an answer to you question, I want to comment on something else you said. And this is more me saying "..and here's the cruel irony and sadness of people being ashamed of their size and insecurity in general".

When he broke up with you, you'll always wonder if it was because of the kids thing or because of his size. Cruel irony: there's a good chance, every time someone dumps him, regardless of why, he'll wonder if it was because of his size.

That being said, I don't think you can do anything other than keep trying and being patient. This is something the guy has to sort out for himself. People have to reach a point where they love themselves before they can properly let other people love them. For the most part, people can only do that on their own. 

Which means all you can do is look for and approach guys who have _already_ reached that point in their lives and emotional maturity, have come to grips with their size and are at peace with it and are confident.

Hope that helps.


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## Hozay J Garseeya (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't think someone who is ashamed of themselves or isn't happy with who they are as a person is in a healthy place (mentally or emotionally) to be in a relationship. You shouldn't try to make it work with someone who isn't happy with themselves, it'll just end badly. Happiness starts from within!


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## hedonistthinker (Oct 20, 2013)

you must approach this situation dependin on the source of his low self esteem. a lot of bigger guys, dont even realize some women like them partially for their girth as opposed to in spite of it. in these cases, a well placed "you know, some girls actually like a man with some meat" can do the trick, or at least help. other times, a little bit of tough love can go a long way, and telling him to get more confident regardless of size can help too, but this is on a case by case basis.

if he is that self-loathing, that patience and encouragement wont help him, then is simply not worth it.

as a side observation, there seems to be plenty of ffa's in england, maybe applying next year to grad school is a better idea than i thought


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## Paquito (Oct 20, 2013)

I mean at the end of the day, you can't be in charge of someone else's self-esteem. It's frustrating when the group of people you're attracted to are generally lacking in confidence, but you can't make someone magically develop self-esteem (no matter how positive and affectionate you are). Being a good partner will help, but the guy has to be willing to work on his confidence too.


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## biglynch (Oct 20, 2013)

This is a common issue unfortunately, and its never going to go away easy. The truth is no matter how you approach it unless the guy is as Hozay said accepting of himself then he will not see how another can accept him. Self sabotage will likely rear its ugly head on a regular basis. If I was going to offer anything, and it not much instead of complimenting size/fat/bulk try playing on the manliness/strength side of things… that’s what I prefer anyways.

Best of luck.


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## dodobird (Oct 20, 2013)

Guys, thank you all so much for your responses! Now that you've all said that I can't be responsible for the way a guy feels about himself, I've realised that's probably exactly what I would say to someone in my situation and it makes a lot of sense. 

Have any of you struggled with the kind of issues I was describing? Is there anything a partner could have done to help you work through it, or do you just think that guys like this are best left alone until they get through it themselves? And what if they never do? It makes me sad to think of guys like the one I was describing, who are actually really great people, being left alone and miserable when there are people who would love them.

I know love isn't a magic cure for deep-rooted self-esteem issues, but when a BHM's head is clearly full of thoughts like "No one will ever find me attractive" it's hard not to want to jump up and down in front of him screaming "Me! I do!!" 

Also, do you think it might be an age-related thing? I prefer not to date guys who are more than a few years older than me so perhaps they're still struggling with issues that they'll grow out of if I just wait for my dating pool to age a bit?

Oh, and hedonistthinker, you should definitely come to the UK. We can always use more BHMs 

Again, thanks so much for your posts, it's great to be able to get opinions about this from people who know what I'm talking about


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## tankyguy (Oct 20, 2013)

dodobird said:


> Have any of you struggled with the kind of issues I was describing?



I have and continue to do so.

I'm in my early 30's and I've never had a relationship. I never felt anyone could be attracted to me because, except for one exception when I was 16 (and at half my current size), no one ever has that I can tell. The few times women have flirted with me in person, it turns out they weren't interested in me at all, just what I could do for them, and I got burned. I've met women online through shared interests who seemed to me into me, we'd banter, flirt, but the second they saw my picture they lost all romantic interest in me.

This combination of factors would make me wary of any woman who I didn't know well if she approached me romantically. If it was a friend or someone I already knew was into big guys, obviously I'd drop my armor a lot quicker. I think I'm better than I once was, but I'm not 100% sure I'm where I need to be yet. Maybe 90%.




dodobird said:


> Is there anything a partner could have done to help you work through it, or do you just think that guys like this are best left alone until they get through it themselves?



I think you're best bet is to leave them alone until they get in sorted and move on to someone else. It could take them years to figure themselves out.

It's not so much about physical age, but their emotional age. Granted, some people grow up faster than others, and you have people in their 40's still stuck in a high school mentality.

Look out for signs guys are still uncomfortable with themselves and have low self-esteem. Inability to take compliments (like calling him 'gorgeous') is one of them. Guys making too many self-deprecating jokes about their weight is another, that's often a coping mechanism to cover up their insecurity; they're taking a shot at themselves before anyone else can. Talk to them. If they're constantly showing the resistance to you liking them and you showing affection, or it feels like they're putting you up on a pedestal, they may not be in the correct place for a healthy romantic relationship.

Just my POV.
Best of luck.


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## biglynch (Oct 20, 2013)

Wheres Tad, hes good at this stuff?

Lets look at it like this. Imagine you have no face. That would clearly be a negative. Now imagine that someone is saying your lack of a face is amazing and they love it. In anyones mind that would be difficult to understand and accept. Thats kind of the issue youre facing. Focus away from the size stuff or what he may feel is a negative and pick up on other things that he is comfortable with. 

On the age thing I have no real idea strangely but when I was in my early 20s I would have probably said that the idea of an FFA was a lie. So maybe it is an age issue, my gut feeling is no though. I would say apart from being a tiny bit wiser Im not much different to how I was 10 years ago. Dont wait around, as the likelihood is that if its a problem now if nothing changes then it will remain a problem. 

I think it will have more to do with the friends people keep. I was always surrounded by friends who encouraged me, and were positive in there approach. I felt confident around them and that was picked up on by others. 


Right time for my Sunday roast.


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## dodobird (Oct 20, 2013)

biglynch said:


> Lets look at it like this. Imagine you have no face. That would clearly be a negative.



How did you know about my lack of face? WHY THE NO FACE HATE?! :really sad:

Seriously, though, I don't think I was that focused on his size when complimenting him. I even thought carefully about where I was putting my hands during, erm, intimate moments, so as not to draw attention to areas he might have been sensitive about. I made a fuss of how sexy his butt was but he would actually go along with that, so I guess he didn't hate his butt. I mean, I get that if you're unhappy with your size you don't want someone going on about it all the time, even if it's in a positive way (heck, even if you ARE happy with it, there's more to you than the shape of your body). In fact, the only times I made reference to the fact that I like bigger guys were when he brought his weight up first. Also, there were plenty of other things I liked about him and would talk about instead, but I was afraid that if I never said anything at all about his size he would think that I was trying to ignore it because I liked him _just_ for his personality, which would have made him feel worse again. It's a spiral of angst and confusion.

tankyguy, thanks so much for your insight  I'm sorry you've had such lousy experiences and I really hope you find someone special. 

Self-deprecating jokes are an interesting one. I make them a lot and I'm actually pretty comfortable with who I am: I know what my faults are and I try to overcome them, but I don't mind joking about them along the way. I also find that, when I'm meeting new people, it helps to put both me and them at ease. But I suppose you're right, someone who does that too much is probably trying to "compensate" for being bigger by making sure they're the one making the jokes about it, which perpetuates their own negative self-image and makes the whole thing worse. There are a lot of vicious circles here 

While I'm happy that I'm learning more about what I find attractive, I'm finding a lot of guilt mixed in. How can I be turned on by something that makes someone so miserable? How can I upset someone as much as I clearly did my ex just by being into them? 

Ugh. If anyone needs me, I'll be in this black hole of guilt and whining.


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## djudex (Oct 20, 2013)

dodobird said:


> We had a stupid fight one day because I greeted him with something like "Hey, gorgeous!" and he said I complimented him too much. I see where he was coming from, because I've dated guys who complimented me so frequently that it became meaningless and irritating. But, at the same time, he obviously didn't believe that I fancied him, so I was trying to make him see it.





> Either way, his body was obviously the source of a lot of issues for him and for our relationship, which is a shame when I found it so attractive.



I think for a lot of heavier guys low self esteem is a (pun intended) massive issue to overcome. Then, if they're lucky, along comes a woman who not only likes them but finds them attractive and they can't believe their luck. I think for a lot of self conscious BHM the problem comes in where they begin to feel like the fat is the defining factor in the relationship and that reinforces in their mind the deep seated belief that they are fundamentally unlovable, something that began because they were fat and is now being reinforced because the person they're with loves their fat. I would imagine it's similar to how fashion model-esque women feel i.e. 'he just loves me for my looks' and unfortunately the more you compliment a person on that aspect the more you reinforce their belief that you only love them because of that aspect.

Until a person realizes who they are and becomes okay with it (not an easy task for the majority of humanity it seems) this type of situation just keeps on replicating itself in their lives, it becomes a cycle of depression, elation and then depressive reaffirmation and it builds a nice, solid layer of mental shielding. Loving a person involves more than just what turns you on physically and part of a healthy relationship is making sure your partner knows that there are other aspects of them that you love, not just what could be considered your 'fetish' portion. Saying they're sexy is great but make sure to remind them of the other reasons you love them or you'll just wind up with an insular and agitated partner (assuming they start out with low self esteem/poor identity issues, I myself love hearing I'm sexy but I'm an actualized adult with healthy self esteem due to magnificent ass).


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## dodobird (Oct 20, 2013)

I mentioned this in another post which is awaiting moderation so I don't know if this one will show up before or after that one, but I really don't want you guys thinking that I just obsessed over his body - I think that would be a crappy way to treat someone regardless of their appearance and confidence. I actually cut a lot of rambling about how sweet and funny and awesome this guy was out of my original post because it wasn't relevant and felt a bit pathetic under the circumstances! I complimented him for all kinds of things and never mentioned his weight unless he brought it up first.

I actually feel a bit weird about identifying as an FA for exactly this reason - I don't want to seem or feel shallow. But then I went through a weird period where I thought I might be asexual (not attracted to anyone) because I just wasn't turned on by the things other people were. I thought my sex drive was broken so I'd never be able to have a relationship, so it's actually a huge relief to find that I just like something different to what the mainstream media defines as "attractive". But it's certainly not all I care about.


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## vardon_grip (Oct 20, 2013)

biglynch said:


> Wheres Tad, hes good at this stuff?
> 
> ...



With all due respect to Tad and his wonderful opinions...

I think the responses so far have been great. You, Hozay, Tankguy...et al, have shared your opinions, experiences and feelings about this sensitive subject; showing that a lot of us go thru and feel the same things.


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## Anjula (Oct 20, 2013)

First of all, I like you, lets be friends. Seriously.

And now for your question. Be honest. I never never never go for the ' i love your personality and im fine with your body' bullshit because thats not entirely true. I fuck*** love your body, it makes me wet and I cant stop imagining ripping your clothes off. That and your amazing personality. It can scare him, surely, but Ive dated guys who were crazy shy, and it never did. After a week or so, they were fine with it. I seriously think honesty is your best shot. Lets be honest, whats better then having a girlfriend who is wet before you even touch her? ( and I mean sexually, of course having girlfeind who loves you is way better but lets stay in the body zone lol) He will soon realized it, and if not, Im sorry I have no idea. As I said always worked for me. 

But still having a self confident boy is wayyyy better. ( Mine totally is, altough he is still kinda embarassed when I put him on a scale as a foreplay hahahahha)

xoxo


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## AuntHen (Oct 20, 2013)

^ that post is gold, pure gold! :wubu:


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## Amaranthine (Oct 20, 2013)

After reading your post, I seriously felt like I could have written a great deal of that myself, right down to feeling paranoid over being set up to be humiliated. So while it might be more relevant for the guys around here to answer, I thought I'd throw in a few things that've worked for me! Which hopefully could be at least a little helpful. 

First off...the most important things have already been mentioned repeatedly. Mainly...

1. In the end, you're not in charge of someone's self-esteem. You can put in a lot of effort, but ultimately it's their issue to work through and come to terms with. It sucks, but so it goes. 

2. Like djudex said, make sure the relationship seems well-rounded (heh.) Emphasize everything you enjoy about them rather than specifically fixating on their size/physical attractiveness. 

Now as for things I've found useful/effective enough on the FFA side of it...letting yourself be a little vulnerable about it can help. Rather than just frequent reassurance and compliments, up the candor and speak honestly from your perspective. Sure, the BHM side of things is difficult - all the other answers here speak to that. But it's not exactly a cake walk being attracted to someone who can't stand their body/dislikes themselves. In my experience, it can feel downright uncomfortable. "Well...I realize you kind of hate your body and people have been assholes to you your entire life and society dictates what's what when it comes to attractiveness...But hey! I think you're the sexiest! Yeah! Yeah..."

But even if you open yourself up a bit like that, I think it's important to remain confident about your preferences. If you act unsure about appreciating him physically, it might seem less genuine (whereas in reality, it may just be because you feel awkward about it because of HIS self-consciousness, etc.) 



> But when a BHM's head is clearly full of thoughts like "No one will ever find me attractive" it's hard not to want to jump up and down in front of him screaming "Me! I do!!"



Honestly...you might as well do just that. After having spent a lot of the past being really inhibited and shy about it, I'm a complete weirdo about it now. Pretty much what Anjula said, really. People will only go so far in pretending they're attracted to someone. If you go full-stop creepy/enthusiastic...well, he'll either run or get used to it. 

As for the kids thing, though...it's weird that it came up so early, yeah. But it might have played in. I'm with you on not wanting them, so if someone tells me they definitively want kids, it's sort of a deal-breaker. You can't know whether it was the real reason, but there's nothing to do about it now. 

Anyways, good luck! It can be discouraging, but it gets better :happy:


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## ODFFA (Oct 20, 2013)

So many pearls here already.

One thing that's quite difficult for me is the question of whether to leave a 'struggling' BHM alone or not. 

I completely understand the argument for rather leaving someone like that be. I think that's the one I kinda lean towards the most too. But for me, it's not as black and white as that. I've kinda been at both ends of that spectrum. So I know how helpful an encouraging relationship can be to one's self-actualisation process.... and I know it can be draining to have the role of encourager all the time.

I don't feel I'm in a position to say 'go for it!' or 'rather not' across the board when it comes to shyer/more insecure BHMs. For myself I'd take that on, on a case by case basis, which is admittedly already hard if you have invested feelings. But I wouldn't want to limit myself entirely by saying 'if he hasn't "sorted himself out totally" yet, just don't go there.' I mean, which one of us can truly say we're 100% happy with ourselves all day, every day? I know that's not quite what people are saying, I just wanted to add that idea as a consideration. I understand there are degrees, too, and I don't mean to trivialise how downright discouraging it can be with some people.

I utterly agree with the main thing people have said though - Mr B*H*M has ultimate control over his own self-esteem, and you have ultimate control over yours. No other person has the magic wand to make one's own insecurities disappear. If someone is still struggling with a few things, but understands that concept and is making steady progress, who's to say being in a positive (open and well-rounded!) relationship is _necessarily_ a bad idea?

Also, just as an aside, I couldn't help thinking to myself reading this how much I love FFAs  especially the Dims variety. And BHMs, obviously. :happy:


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## Archetypus (Oct 20, 2013)

eh.

compliments can sometimes come off as you trying to reassure yourself you find him attractive, *regardless of*...

it can be perceived as selfish and unsure, whether its your intent or not.

ive been with 2 women who were constantly trying to tell me how sexy i am because im fat. BOOOORING. if youre showing interest in me, and dating me, and fucking me...then i get it. you like me.

being "patient" is to be reserved for ill-behaved children and untrained pets. there has be some kind of subtlety & depth, which only comes with time. compliments before that are often disingenuous and speak toward your need for superficiality. ive learned this the hard way as im someone who likes to compliment those who i admire and/or feel romantic inclinations for. some folks just arent prepared for it. and some just plain hate it. some cant live without it. it is contingent upon you to know the difference and modify your behavior to determine success.

*BHM. FFA.* ugh, BOOOOORING. labels are for canned corn. treat them like a NORMAL person. because they are...


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## Sasquatch! (Oct 20, 2013)

If someone else's self-esteem is based on you, they're not ready for a relationship. What happens if you break?

You can't force someone to feel more confident, they have to take the steps themselves. As long as you're not creating a harmful environment, I'm not sure what the heck else you're supposed to do.


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## chicken legs (Oct 20, 2013)

You have to tread lightly when you deal with straight guys an how you are attracted to them on a physical level. It doesn't matter how they look. 

I became a total fruit fly when I was younger because I was able to express myself to gay and bisexual men in a verbal way that straight guys couldn't handle. 

With straight guys, you have to express it without words, unless they are from this community of BHM/FFA and are already accustomed to the attention. 

So just let them get to know you and get comfortable with you till they recognize it on their own.


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## Yakatori (Oct 21, 2013)

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> "_I don't think someone who is ashamed of themselves or isn't happy with who they are as a person is in a healthy place (mentally or emotionally) to be in a relationship. You shouldn't try to make it work with someone who isn't happy with themselves, it'll just end badly. Happiness starts from within!_"





Sasquatch! said:


> "_If someone else's self-esteem is based on you, they're not ready for a relationship. What happens if you break?
> 
> You can't force someone to feel more confident, they have to take the steps themselves._"


I agree. But more-so in the sense of how it's all sort of relative. I think, at different points in your life, you will tend to meet various, different benchmarks in independence or self-assuredness. And so a guy can-be or become real confident in particular area or less so in another. Even so, it's hard, beyond challenging, to have to constantly prop someone-up. -Or- to constantly be prodded by someone-else, the one person who's ideally closest to you, to be doing things outside of your comfort zone. It will tend to work-best when two people are mostly on the same page (but not, necessarily, the same-word-of-the-same-sentence-on the-same-page?) when it comes to being confident or adventurous about a lot of the same things (but, maybe, not all of the same things?). A certain degree of complementary-tension is good, & stimulates individual-growth. And enhances the relationship. But, more often, a little is plenty-enough.



biglynch said:


> "_Where’s Tad, he’s good at this stuff?_"


Yes, Tad is very insightful. **starts banging fists on table** _Tad! Tad!! *Tad!!! *Tad!_



biglynch said:


> "_...Imagine you have no face...that someone is saying your lack of a face is amazing and they love it. In anyone’s mind that would be difficult to understand and accept. That’s kind of the issue you’re facing. Focus away from the size stuff or what he may feel is a negative and pick up on other things that he is comfortable with...it will have more to do with the friends people keep. I was always surrounded by friends who encouraged me, and were positive in there approach. I felt confident around them and that was picked up on by others._"


Kind of an extreme analogy, but the point needs to be made: A person has to make that decision for themselves; of their own objective self-worth; of a responsibility, to themselves, to do about as well as they can, just for themselves. However, the likelihood of their ultimate arrival at that point goes-up exponentially with each thing they become successful-at. And so having lots of cool friends will certainly facilitate a person's is openness to everything they have to offer anyone-else. 

But it takes time. Life is short. And there are no guarantees of what will-be. Just of what-is. And this is just objective, straight-up good sense. About how you can't really change anyone, least of all in that way. (Particularly-important for guys into fat chicks, or women in general.  But applicable-enough, I'm sure, all around.) To me, it's the essential..._Yang_ of things. (Or is it the _Ying_?)

Still, I think, some part of what makes relationships so _mag-i...er...worthwhile_....is this sense of how we're transformed, that we have the power to transcend ourselves? To catalyze something in the other person; each other, really; that wasn't there before? Or that wouldn't be if it weren't for 'us?' The 'two-of-us,' together...


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## Tad (Oct 21, 2013)

First of all, Im glad you find your way to these forumswelcome! (also, another red-haired FFA? Be honest, you are all unicorns, hiding behind screen namesright?)

Second, I dont really have anything to add beyond what others have already said, so I dont know why others were bringing up my name. For that matter, I say pretty much the same thing time after time.

However, thirdly, being redundant has never stopped me from saying my piece before.

So, standard point number one: One does not automatically come to appreciate about themselves what their partner appreciates about them.

The point was already made vividly that being admired for something that you are not crazy about on yourself isnt great. To use another example, imagine a guy knew you didnt want kids, but was turned on by your potential for fertility. That he tracked your monthly cycle and was always especially amorous when you would be ovulating (even though taking contraceptive steps of whatever sort), that he kept putting his love for the female body in terms of hips that could support babies, breasts that could feed them, etc. His admiration for those aspects of you might not make you feel sexy at all, possibly the opposite. You might even wonder if he was attracted to you per se, or if he just fetishized your reproductive system. 

Or to look at it another wayyou are an FA.of big guys. At a guess, youd rather not gain a hundred pounds yourself, and if for reasons beyond your control you did you would probably not find your belly to be amazingly sexy, no matter what your partner thought. (and btw, if Im wrong and you are an FA-of-self, too, that is awesome, and join the club, not trying to imply that you should be one way or another, just guessing based on what you have and havent said)

As an FA who is married to someone who would rather not be plus-sized, I can say that even if your partner comes to 100% accept that you like what you say you like, that is no guarantee that they will ever appreciate that aspect of themselves, and certainly not find that aspect to be sexy. Of course, some people just need permission to like themselves as they are, and once they really believe that it is allowed may come to revel in it. I have no idea how you tell until you are involved enough that it is painful to get out again Maybe others with more dating experience have tips on how to better distinguish that potential?

And standard point number two: actions speak louder than words. Anjula already pointed this out, focusing on the sex part (which is a very good, very important, part), so Ill just look at a few less fun ways.

Given that you want to convince your tubby partner (or potential partner) that you are crazy for their body as it is, and that you see their girth/softness/jiggly bits as good things, not bad things, I totally support telling them. The problem with telling them is that it is easy to argue with words. Whether they argue with your words out loudYou are so handsome No, Im not, I wish you wouldnt keep saying thator whether they do the arguing in their own headShes just trying to convince herself, Shes just trying to make me feel better, Shes just saying that because it is what you are supposed to say to your boyfriend, She means I could be handsome if I could just lose all this flab, She must be crazyit is pretty easy use words to block a compliment that is given in words.

The problem is that most actions which most people would do to show their attraction are conventional, so easily dismissed as it is what one does. As in, you hug him when you see him, or stand at a part with your arm around his waist.well, that is what girlfriends do, you could just be being a good girl friend.

So I suggest going that extra mile, and showing your appreciation in somewhat unconventional ways. Things that seem weird enough or even impolite enough or otherwise costly enough that normally there would be incentive not to do these things. The message you are trying to get across is that even though this is uncomfortable, frowned on, time consuming, expensive, or whatever, that you are so crazy for him that you are going to do these things anyway. (and yes, these are stereotypically guy things to do, because guys are more often the one going the extra mile to sell their devotion).

Public displays of affection of the sort that might make people around you a bit uncomfortable can be a good place to start. Things like intense kisses at a bus stop, sitting on his lap at a party and snuggling in to him, or even using those complimenting words , but in situations where normally one wouldnt like when meeting up with him when he is with friends or family (i.e. saying You are so attractive when alone can be argued with, but You are so attractive in front of him Mom is a whole different sort of declarationespecially if coupled with a big hug and warm kiss).

Another way would be to insist on getting pictures of himgood pictures, not with him making goofy I hate having my picture taken facesto have on your phone, your computer, maybe printed out and put on your nightstand. Emphasize the message that you love looking at him, that when he isnt with you, you still want to look at him, that you want to be able to show off his picture to others. If you are really bold, demand that he model for you semi-nude, for your own personal collection of cheesecake pictures (and then text him sometime I was just looking at those pictures I took of you last monththat was a mistake because now all I can think of is getting my hands on you again.

Another, pretty simple, way is to take him shopping, demand that he model various clothes for youeven things you know that wont be boughtbecause you want to get to gawk at him looking all handsome and sexy. Try and get some clothes that are less camouflaging than he would normally wear (money permitting), then insist that he wear them when you go out somewhere very public, being very clear that I want to show you off! (which, btw, would be a good opportunity to also use PDA and picture taking to make your point).

All you may do is convince him that you are a special type of crazy, but you should be able to leave zero doubt in his mind that you are entirely, deeply, smitten with his looks.


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## tankyguy (Oct 21, 2013)

chicken legs said:


> You have to tread lightly when you deal with straight guys an how you are attracted to them on a physical level. It doesn't matter how they look.
> 
> I became a total fruit fly when I was younger because I was able to express myself to gay and bisexual men in a verbal way that straight guys couldn't handle.
> 
> ...




That's a good point. It can be very unnerving for some guys to feel like the object of lust, rather than being the one lusting after someone else first, because guys are conditioned to think like that.

That's how it goes down on television. Boy sees girl, falls for her. Shows her he's worthy, she falls for him, done deal.


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## reuben6380 (Oct 21, 2013)

Anyone is going to get freaked out if you get all Freudian on him so in the beginning its usually advisable to put away the over-analytical female brain and think like a man! Guys don't want to go out, we don't want to shop, we want to hang out, share a meal and get naked (the order is variable). All that long walk on the beach bologna is just to facilitate the nakedness thereafter. And remember its not your job to save the world, some people are just to damaged to repair and only a masochist wants a life-long project. When cost of parts and labor do not justify the net result, its time to look for a better contract.


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## tankyguy (Oct 21, 2013)

reuben6380 said:


> And remember its not your job to save the world, some people are just to damaged to repair and only a masochist wants a life-long project. When cost of parts and labor do not justify the net result, its time to look for a better contract.



Right. I've heard from a lot of women who spent their 20's on "fixer-upper" guys who never got better, and now they're regretful.

The only one who can bring about lasting personal change is the person who needs changing themselves. You can't pull Artax out of that swamp, no matter how much you love him.

That said, not all damage is that severe.
Everyone has issues, and if the guy has minor ones you can live with and is making efforts and progress to improve, that's a good sign. You don't need to find someone perfect, but you do have to find someone who makes you happy and has a healthy interest in growing as a person.

The important part is to not completely mortgage your happiness now for how something else _could_ be later. This is advice for anyone.


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## ODFFA (Oct 22, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> Right. I've heard from a lot of women who spent their 20's on "fixer-upper" guys who never got better, and now they're regretful.



This is something that occurred to me again very recently too - how many of us ladies have a saviour complex, and how deep it can run.

My brother's girlfriend practically begged me to watch a few back-to-back episodes of Beauty And The Beast with her a while back. I saw how fervently her eyes were glued to the screen as she willed the salvation process to take effect. And it hit me like a meteor. Also, I'm not claiming stoicism at all! That shit spoke to my soul, whether I had intended it to or not 

So, here's a consideration - what would [you/I] "do with" a man that's secure in himself for the most part and doesn't really _need_ [you/me] to fix him? So many of my fantasies, sexual and otherwise, used to revolve around getting to open someone's eyes to their sexiness and overall amazingness.

Who knows, maybe I will one day get to play a huge role in my future love's process of discovering and loving himself. And that's more than ok, too. I suppose the point is that my life no longer revolves around it. I understand and accept my lack of magic powers and others' lack of it to 'save' me. 

There is still much to be said for getting to be a very positive part of someone's life though. And without all those daunting expectations either which way, it can be a rather wonderful prospect ^.^


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## dodobird (Oct 22, 2013)

Guys, thank you all so much for all your responses. I really do appreciate all your insight and I've been thinking a lot about what you've said. I feel bad for not posting more in response, but I think I just need to take it all in and think about it for a bit.  But you're all awesome. Have some internet hugs! *hugs*


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## Melian (Oct 25, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> Right. I've heard from a lot of women who spent their 20's on "fixer-upper" guys who never got better, and now they're regretful.
> 
> The only one who can bring about lasting personal change is the person who needs changing themselves. You can't pull Artax out of that swamp, no matter how much you love him.



Two comments:

1. Women in their 20's are "fixer-uppers" themselves, almost across the board. I know I was a retarded mess at that time. Just find it funny when people assume that their time was wasted - it was probably a learning experience.

2. NeverEnding Story references are always relevant.


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## loopytheone (Oct 25, 2013)

Hmmm, you seem to be a very similar person to me. I am a 23 year old FFA living in england. And I did/do identify as asexual as you said you did once. I think we are living creepy parallel lives here! 

As for the self esteem of your partners, I agree with what everybody else here says, you can't fix these issues for another person as much as you would like to. Self confidence comes from the inside and from accepting and loving who you are as a person and no amount of support and kind words can make that happen for you. It certainly helps and in general I think people should be supportive to each other but these things take time and have to come from him rather than anything you say/do.

Also, bear in mind that everybody has days when they feel insecure or negative about themselves. I am a pretty confident and self assured type of person but even I have days when I feel ugly and like my hair is too messy and my eyes aren't blue enough etc etc and so does my SSBHM partner. All you can do is remind them of how wonderful a person they are. Complimenting their personality and smarts and sense of humour tends to work best because that way you are drawing them away from dwelling on their appearance when they are in such a mood. That is what I have found helps for me at least.


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## ODFFA (Oct 25, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> ....I am a pretty confident and self assured type of person but even I have days when I feel ugly and like my hair is too messy and my eyes aren't blue enough etc etc....



A little off-topic (unless you want to count this as a practical demonstration). You're kidding?! Your eyes are the beautifulest brightest bluest blue ever! Also, I'm so glad you had yourself a fabulous time in Canadaland and got to see the sight that matters.


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## loopytheone (Oct 26, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> A little off-topic (unless you want to count this as a practical demonstration). You're kidding?! Your eyes are the beautifulest brightest bluest blue ever! Also, I'm so glad you had yourself a fabulous time in Canadaland and got to see the sight that matters.



Awww, well thank you very much! :blush: My eyes look nicer in pictures though, I always feel! And thank you for that!


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## ODFFA (Nov 5, 2013)

So, I actually have a little relationships question of my own.....

Ive never been one to play hard to get. I dont even like that phrase, it sounds the same as toying with someone, which Im not a fan of. If I genuinely like you as a person, but not in _that_ way, you will know. If Im into you in allll the ways....well....you will know :blush:

Recently though, Ive been rethinking this strategy....or lack thereof. Maybe its just a phase Im in right now, but Im starting to feel wary of over-expressing myself to someone. (It may be worth saying to those who havent yet noticed, Im naturally a verrry expressive person  not just to someone whos a love interest.)

I think the point is that I feel the need to tread more carefully and make sure what Im expressing is, at least eventually, fully reciprocated. This can be a bit complicated tying into the whole BHM issue, because I cant imagine _not_ letting my future BHM know just how incredibly attractive he is. So, I guess its one of those balancing act type things. Maybe its also a case of getting honest with myself sooner if the attraction isnt truly mutual. Or maybe Ive actually been doing pretty ok and its just a bit of rawness talking.....

Ive agreed totally with all you FFAs that have said its best to be pretty upfront about the extent of your attraction. And I still do agree. My question is, do you ever feel the need to balance that out a bit / measure it carefully? And if so, how would you go about it? 

Hope that made sense and didnt sound too self-deprecating


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 5, 2013)

Interesting question, OD. Interesting question indeed.


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## Anjula (Nov 5, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> Ive agreed totally with all you FFAs that have said its best to be pretty upfront about the extent of your attraction. And I still do agree. My question is, do you ever feel the need to balance that out a bit / measure it carefully? And if so, how would you go about it?
> 
> Hope that made sense and didnt sound too self-deprecating




Im not 100% sure of I understood what you've meant.

Having said that my question for you is why? Why doing that? ( I'm seriously intrigued)


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## ODFFA (Nov 6, 2013)

Anjula said:


> Im not 100% sure of I understood what you've meant.
> 
> Having said that my question for you is why? Why doing that? ( I'm seriously intrigued)



 In other words: Can it be a good thing sometimes to 'play hard to get' - especially as an FFA? And how much is too much either way?

As to why: I suppose because I've noticed a pattern with my previous crushes/relationships and it's made me wonder if I could be doing some things better.... On the other hand, it could just be because of a bit of paranoia on my part.

Be interesting to hear what you guys think


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## Melian (Nov 6, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> In other words: Can it be a good thing sometimes to 'play hard to get' - especially as an FFA? And how much is too much either way?
> 
> As to why: I suppose because I've noticed a pattern with my previous crushes/relationships and it's made me wonder if I could be doing some things better.... On the other hand, it could just be because of a bit of paranoia on my part.
> 
> Be interesting to hear what you guys think



I think it's just a bit of paranoia. You've been blunt and, unfortunately, those particular guys didn't all respond the way you hoped, but everyone is different. If you start holding back to a level that is unnatural for you, you risk giving off the wrong impression of your personality and/or attracting the wrong type of person (e.g. a guy who wants a timid woman).

Of course, this is coming from someone with zero internal monologue.


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## Amaranthine (Nov 6, 2013)

So...I really want to chime in on this topic, because it's actually crossed my mind quite a few times. But sort-of for the wrong reasons. 

Mainly, I'm not exactly sure what playing hard to get actually entails :doh: It's just one of those terms I never automatically connected with an experience/concept. Sort of like heart-burn. The name is really straightforward!...but if you ask me to imagine it, it's just not gonna happen. 

That being said, I'd go with paranoia as well. I'd say that acting the way that comes naturally to you is best. After all, you want someone who enjoys you for *you*. I guess there's a couple ways in which I could see a lot of direct expression of feelings going a little sour: 

1. It happens _really_ early in the friendship. 
2. It comes up very frequently or too strongly, in a clingy sort of way? 

But beyond that, I really don't see why being completely upfront would be a negative. Especially in the FFA/BHM context. 

To try to answer your actual question about balancing - if you even need to at all - I suppose try to base it off how the other party is interacting with you? To steal a piece of writing advice I got in high school, "Show, don't tell." Rather than stating how you feel outright, convey it a bit more indirectly? It can serve as a more gradual gauge of reciprocation compared to just putting it out on the table. But that's coming from someone who's awful at directly verbalizing/textualizing emotions in the first place :/


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## chicken legs (Nov 6, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> In other words: Can it be a good thing sometimes to 'play hard to get' - especially as an FFA? And how much is too much either way?
> 
> As to why: I suppose because I've noticed a pattern with my previous crushes/relationships and it's made me wonder if I could be doing some things better.... On the other hand, it could just be because of a bit of paranoia on my part.
> 
> Be interesting to hear what you guys think



There has always been the discussion on us having a fetish or preference when it come to our fat admiration. To the outside world...its a fetish. So like other fetishes (bondage and submission for example), you keep it vanilla and slowly let them feel safe an comfortable with you an your affection. 

Usually bigger people do not like their bodies anyway so drawing tons of attention to it makes them uncomfortable. Then you have to remember that that they go through a lot of social problems because of their size so the defenses are up. So yes, play hard to get an make them work for it because you have to build up trust and that takes time..then they will appreciate your affection even more. 

Also keep in mind that your lovin' may (and usually does) change their mindset and then they will lose weight. So give yourself time to get to know them and make sure you really like them for them an not just because they are juicy.


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## Tad (Nov 7, 2013)

I forget who it was who said “I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.” I do think though that most of us have some of that in us. 

Or to put it another way, we value things more when we work for them. For example, imagine two people have each run small businesses for years, and eventually one sells theirs for four million dollars, while the other just shuts down the business….but then wins four million dollars in the lottery the next day. I think that more often than not, the first will be more careful with their money, because they feel that they earned it.

Or to put it another way, most of us have at least some degree of wanting the &#8216;best’ partner that we can find. If someone approaches you and is all &#8216;you are amazing, I adore you, let’s be together’ then that suggests that they think you are fantastic….and that you might ignore them normally. There could be all sorts of reasons for this, but one that may be assumed (subconsciously most of the time, I’d guess) is that they don’t really think they are worthy of you.

All of which argues for, well, I really don’t like the phrase &#8216;hard to get,’ rather perhaps say calls for demanding to be courted. Obviously there is the issue that the person you are interested in may have no idea that you—or anyone—could possibly be interested in them. So you may have to smack them pretty hard to get their attention in the first place, but that doesn’t mean that there can’t be back and forth afterwards. I recall this sort of thing being described once as “she chased him until he caught her” i.e. you may have to move things along, and really make his moves obvious, but can still get him to go through the steps. Maybe something like “I think you are interesting—maybe you should ask me out for a coffee sometime.” (or something a bit slicker than that)


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## Anjula (Nov 7, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> In other words: Can it be a good thing sometimes to 'play hard to get' - especially as an FFA? And how much is too much either way?
> 
> As to why: I suppose because I've noticed a pattern with my previous crushes/relationships and it's made me wonder if I could be doing some things better.... On the other hand, it could just be because of a bit of paranoia on my part.
> 
> Be interesting to hear what you guys think



Ok I get it. I've already mensioned in this thread I'm always super straight with my preferences. Despite all the reasons I've shared with you there are also others. Over the years I've learned that hardly any guy I like will make a first move on me but also because I'm a) very honest person b)very impatient person c) very lovable person and I just can't wait to show all the love I have for ones body because I know this "part" was probalby neglected the most. If that make any sense lol ( Im weird as fuc* but also very lucky, most pple think my weirdness is adorable ). 

As for playing hard to get, I do it ( hehe) but when things are more steady. I mean when he already knows I'm crazy about him ( or his body  ). I just dont call him that often, take some time apart and shit like this. You know what they say, the more you dont want him the more he wants you. 

I don't know if it's playing hard to get or what but thats what I do. 


And generally I dont think playing hard to get if youre intrested makes any sense. Why doing that? and also doesnt it make you a player? I dont wanna be one, I dont like players. And its risky lol nononono Its way to complicated for me lol 

I hope you can understand something, my thoughts are pretty disorganised and there is always the language problem


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 7, 2013)

Tad said:


> I forget who it was who said I wouldnt want to belong to any club that would have me as a member. I do think though that most of us have some of that in us.



"Groucho" Marx, I believe.


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## Paquito (Nov 7, 2013)

For the record, "playing hard to get" is statistically ineffective. In general, people develop feelings for people who they feel are interested in them. Playing hard to get with everyone _except_ for the person you're interested in tends to work better.


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## RVGleason (Nov 7, 2013)

Sasquatch! said:


> "Groucho" Marx, I believe.



Groucho Marx, minus quotation marks.


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## biglynch (Nov 7, 2013)

RVGleason said:


> Groucho Marx, minus quotation marks.



Julius "Groucho" Marx. Definitely with quotation marks.

So playing hard to get, and is it a good idea. No in my view. I like to know that Im wanted or liked. Thats my preference, and I cant think of even one time I tried my luck with anyone who was not showing some interest. Maybe I have missed out I guess. 

I think it possible to over analyze. At the end of the day most people are easy going relaxed people regardless of size. They like affection, and enjoy attraction. 

I say stay obvious.
Love to like and like to love, and all that jazz.


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 7, 2013)

RVGleason said:


> Groucho Marx, minus quotation marks.



Considering it's not his real name, I think it's pretty appropriate.


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## MrSensible (Nov 8, 2013)

biglynch said:


> Julius "Groucho" Marx. Definitely with quotation marks.
> 
> So playing hard to get, and is it a good idea. No in my view. I like to know that Im wanted or liked. Thats my preference, and I cant think of even one time I tried my luck with anyone who was not showing some interest. Maybe I have missed out I guess.
> 
> ...



Definitely this right here. If I don't sense any interest whatsoever, my default thought process is going to be that there isn't even a remote chance of anything happening. Insecurity can be a crazy powerful muse and when you're not used to that kind of attention, I think some of us tend to forget that having a potential secret admirer is even a possibility -- as effing pathetic as that sounds, heh. It's for that reason that I think a more direct approach is just about always the favorable way to go.

And like biglynch said, who doesn't enjoy attraction and affection? I say to hell with the games; bring on those explicit signs of interest! I'm pretty confident you'll find a lucky guy who will return those advances in kind .


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## agouderia (Nov 8, 2013)

I totally agree with you .... only I'm very fussy when it comes to mythological details .... 




MrSensible said:


> Insecurity can be a crazy powerful muse



... most definitely not! 
A Muse is always a positive inspiration - and the best insecurity can do is warn you of risks (even though it tends to exaggerate there too!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muse


Insecurity is the Nemesis you want to get rid of ... and like the true Greek Nemesis are never able to fully leave behind you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(mythology)


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 8, 2013)

agouderia said:


> I totally agree with you .... only I'm very fussy when it comes to mythological details ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agouderia, you blow my mind everytime you post.

(Nothing constructive to contribute, sorry!)


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## MrSensible (Nov 8, 2013)

agouderia said:


> I totally agree with you .... only I'm very fussy when it comes to mythological details ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah yeah, I guess that was a poor choice of word but I meant it in more of an ironic sort of way -- as in that it (insecurity) tends to "inspire" you to think more negatively and expect the worst. Nemesis would have made much more sense though.


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## Crumbling (Nov 9, 2013)

Anjula said:


> You know what they say, the more you dont want him the more he wants you.
> 
> I don't know if it's playing hard to get or what but thats what I do.



Sometimes you want to be chased.
You want to feel wanted or desired. 
Sometimes you want to make him work for it because... 
Dammit, you're worth a bit of effort. 
He has a smoking hot girlfriend, he should take her out and show her off! :shocked:

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting him to make some effort. But sometimes, because of the issues that have already been touched on here, you have to be careful to communicate that to him. So that he understands that it's not that you don't want him. But, that you want him to want you.

It's draining to give of yourself and put into a relationship.
If there's balance you replenish each other.


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## escapist (Nov 9, 2013)

chicken legs said:


> Usually bigger people do not like their bodies anyway so drawing tons of attention to it makes them uncomfortable. Then you have to remember that that they go through a lot of social problems because of their size so the defenses are up. So yes, play hard to get an make them work for it because you have to build up trust and that takes time..then they will appreciate your affection even more.


Chicken did some pretty great stuff. As confident as I thought I was back in the day, she found the things that still bugged me (like kids pointing and freak out at at me in the store) and had a way of defusing it all helping me really just accept that Its not Frankenstein the kids see its more like the HULK's chubby brother.

Helping me see the world though your eyes is what really made me appreciate you. (not the hoops, I hate hoops...I might need them sometimes, but I still hate 'em I'm to big for damn hoops hehehe).


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## chicken legs (Nov 9, 2013)

Crumbling said:


> Sometimes you want to be chased.
> You want to feel wanted or desired.
> Sometimes you want to make him work for it because...
> Dammit, you're worth a bit of effort.
> ...



I sense the force is strong with this one


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## chicken legs (Nov 9, 2013)

Tad said:


> I forget who it was who said I wouldnt want to belong to any club that would have me as a member. I do think though that most of us have some of that in us.
> 
> Or to put it another way, we value things more when we work for them. For example, imagine two people have each run small businesses for years, and eventually one sells theirs for four million dollars, while the other just shuts down the business.but then wins four million dollars in the lottery the next day. I think that more often than not, the first will be more careful with their money, because they feel that they earned it.
> 
> ...




I love your illustrations.


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## ODFFA (Nov 9, 2013)

Ugh, I wish I could respond to what all of you have said respectively, but we're supposed to be weekending, and who really wants to read _that_ essay?

But it's been sooo helpful to relieve my brain of this topic for a while, sit back and just take in some more objectively varied opinions!

I think paranoia *was actually a big part of my starting to (perhaps over-)analyse this. I've realised there's much to be said for doing what comes naturally, especially with being an FFA. At the same time, I'll probably be a tad more balance-focused in future, and give [whoever 'him' turns out to be] more opportunities to put in a healthy bit of effort - particularly once he already knows how I feel about him.

THANK YOU, PEOPLES :kiss2:


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## Crumbling (Nov 9, 2013)

chicken legs said:


> I sense the force is strong with this one



I swallowed a Yoda minifig in 2005 i've never been the same since.


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## ODFFA (Nov 9, 2013)

chicken legs said:


> I sense the force is strong with this one





Crumbling said:


> I swallowed a Yoda minifig in 2005 i've never been the same since.



A well-advised FFA thanks you! (Seriously, that post did strike quite the chord....)

*goes out to buy Yoda minifig* Do you think if I chop it up and chuck it in a stir fry the effects would still be the same? I need me some Force.


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## Crumbling (Nov 9, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> *goes out to buy Yoda minifig* Do you think if I chop it up and chuck it in a stir fry the effects would still be the same? I need me some Force.



I'm not sure I can recommend it. Sometimes it tickles when I bend over.


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## Boom (Nov 9, 2013)

Excuse the pun.... but i'll "weigh in" on this one
as a 27 year old ssbhm 
I can understand where the guys are coming from 
I've been called hot only a few times in my adult life and i couldn't help but feel as if i was being mocked. 
It's interesting how I crave attention and yet when it's displayed it's often times too much and i feel unworthy at least in a real life context. 
I can't imagine if i didn't have the concept of what an ffa was and i met one in real life. 
I am used to being called cute. I have a cute face. but I have never been able to accept myself as hot. 
I wonder why this is


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## escapist (Nov 9, 2013)

Boom said:


> Excuse the pun.... but i'll "weigh in" on this one
> as a 27 year old ssbhm
> I can understand where the guys are coming from
> I've been called hot only a few times in my adult life and i couldn't help but feel as if i was being mocked.
> ...



Usually when your in a relationship feelings and perspectives are fluid and dynamic. You're never just cute, you're never just hot, you're never just average. There are always highs and lows. I used to be bothered that I got called cute far more than hot, and then I grew up and got over it 

There was a time I never heard of an FFA, but I knew what a chubby chaser was. I knew there were girls who just liked bigger guys. I knew there were women who preferred bigger more "manly-sized-men". Perhaps it helped that I grew up in the North West where being a mountain man was considered a good thing. 

As far as accepting yourself as hot, you won't have to worry about it because if you don't learn to see at least some of yourself as BLAZING HOT to some they won't want to look much deeper because "issues" can be a real turn off negating the hotness.

I don't mean to pick on you personally Boom, but I think your right for the most part. I think you express some views that many BHM's see and feel. There are BHM's here who have lived in my world though and experience things very differently. I just wanted to use your examples to express a different perspective.


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## chicken legs (Nov 10, 2013)

escapist said:


> Chicken did some pretty great stuff. As confident as I thought I was back in the day, she found the things that still bugged me (like kids pointing and freak out at at me in the store) and had a way of defusing it all helping me really just accept that Its not Frankenstein the kids see its more like the HULK's chubby brother.
> 
> Helping me see the world though your eyes is what really made me appreciate you. (not the hoops, I hate hoops...I might need them sometimes, but I still hate 'em I'm to big for damn hoops hehehe).



:wubu:


All those defenses were tough but I remembered 6 rules: Dodge, duck, dive, dip, dodge, and most importantly random hugs/snuggling . hehe...truth is, I don't try to play hard to get. Escapist learned my burn out pattern and cares enough to come to me and recharge my lovin' batteries after I get worn out jumping through his hoops . That and communication is the only reason we have been together this long and why I consider Escapist to be my first boyfriend. 

Anywho, I'm a old hen, so my advice is just hindsight talking to help others stay balanced. Plus, its goes for men and women regardless of their (ever changing) physical state or the type of relationship it is (family, friends, or lovers).


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## RedheadinNJ (Nov 11, 2013)

I think self-confidence takes some time to develop no matter what your size. I'm on the high side of 40 and I've been with BHM's older than me that are smokin' hot and see themselves as unattractive. I don't mind tossing a compliment his way but for the most part, in a relationship; I don't have the patience to deal with low self-esteem and the endless questioning of my motives that comes with it. There are some people that no matter what you say or do they are going to be insecure. There is something broken inside of them and they have to find a way to repair it for themselves. You can give them the tools to fix it but they have to do the work.
The current one I'm with is average looking but is comfortable with himself. When we first met he knew I was into big guys and simply asked me "Why?", guess it seemed a little weird. I told him it was just a preference, like being attracted to men with shaved heads, tattoos and big trucks. If they have all that and they're a BHM that's just an added perk. 
I think men are generally somewhat fragile creatures with sensitive egos but some of the best advice you'll get about pursuing them in a relationship will come from the men themselves. There's some great advice here already. 

My thoughts are if the subject of size comes up be honest. Tell him that's what attracted you to him initially but there's more to him than just his size and what's going to keep your attention is his great personality and his ability to make you laugh. The direct approach is usually best and eliminates any confusion whether you're interested or not. Everyone wants attention and affection, give generously and don't over-think where you're putting your hands. If he doesn't want them there he'll move them somewhere else.


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## agouderia (Nov 12, 2013)

Sasquatch! said:


> Agouderia, you blow my mind everytime you post.
> 
> (Nothing constructive to contribute, sorry!)



Hmmm ... not sure whether that really is a compliment....

It sounds a bit more like "person on this board most likely to make the most far-fetched response to any post...."

Not that I mind that - I enjoy devious thinking... it often leads to quite creative results, or is at least more fun!


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## bigmac (Nov 14, 2013)

Boom said:


> Excuse the pun.... but i'll "weigh in" on this one
> as a 27 year old ssbhm
> I can understand where the guys are coming from
> *I've been called hot only a few times in my adult life and i couldn't help but feel as if i was being mocked.*
> ...



I get this -- I've felt the same way. It also never feels genuine when people say "you're not fat -- you're just big".


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## tankyguy (Nov 14, 2013)

Yeah, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been genuinely complimented on my looks (backhanded compliments don't count).

But the thing I figured out was, even if you don't 'believe' someone's compliment, act like you do. Because I came to the conclusion that I was missing out on more good things by acting suspicious than I was 'protecting' myself from bad things by being self-effacing to the point of self-deprecation. This applies not only to looks, but compliments about anything you may be self conscious of.

So I graciously take compliments, I try not to deflect them and I stifle my inner pessimist. And I think myself and everyone I come into contact with is better for it.


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## escapist (Nov 15, 2013)

chicken legs said:


> :wubu:
> 
> 
> All those defenses were tough but I remembered 6 rules: Dodge, duck, dive, dip, dodge, and most importantly random hugs/snuggling . hehe...truth is, I don't try to play hard to get. Escapist learned my burn out pattern and cares enough to come to me and recharge my lovin' batteries after I get worn out jumping through his hoops . That and communication is the only reason we have been together this long and why I consider Escapist to be my first boyfriend.
> ...



:blush: :wubu:

I love that woman! :happy:

I couldn't help it because she looked so cute trying to hibernate under my belly when she needed a recharge


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## tankyguy (Nov 18, 2013)

You know, re-reading this thread along side the 'FFAs with Eating Disorders' one makes me think about the tragedy of a couple who both feel bad about their own bodies while finding their partner's attractive.


If I had a partner in that place, I'd just want hold her and tell her over and over how beautiful she was and not let go. To tell her I know exactly what it's like, and I know I couldn't fix the problem for her, but that I'd still want to give her my unyielding support and be her anchor.


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## ODFFA (Nov 19, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> You know, re-reading this thread along side the 'FFAs with Eating Disorders' one makes me think about the tragedy of a couple who both feel bad about their own bodies while finding their partner's attractive.
> 
> 
> If I had a partner in that place, I'd just want hold her and tell her over and over how beautiful she was and not let go. To tell her I know exactly what it's like, and I know I couldn't fix the problem for her, but that I'd still want to give her my unyielding support and be her anchor.



I'd rep you half do death right now if I could  It is a damn shame, isn't it? And yet I'm inclined to think what you described might just be the most common of relationship situations. But, hell yes! - what you said!


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## MrSensible (Nov 19, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> I'd rep you half do death right now if I could  It is a damn shame, isn't it? And yet I'm inclined to think what you described might just be the most common of relationship situations. But, hell yes! - what you said!



Got him for both of us .


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## Mr Gosh (Nov 26, 2013)

I can totally understand this from both sides of the coin. I've been made to think my whole life that no-one could ever find me attractive and I've always felt self conscious about my size. I'm 6'2" tall and about half as wide and I come from a small (minded) town plus I've got quite a lot of visible tattoos and used to have a bunch of facial piercings and used to get abuse hurled at me all the time because of it. This, combined with other things going on at the time led to me becoming somewhat of a recluse. I now only have 2 noticeable piercings (Large ear lobes. I removed the others for reasons other than unwanted attention.) and I find nowadays that if people comment on them it's usually out of curiosity and they're really friendly about it.

At present I have to use a walking stick due to spinal injury, which, when is kicking my arse in the pain stakes, causes me to shake, spasm and sweat profusely which only adds to my anxiety. However, more often than not, when my paranoia levels go astronomical and I think people are staring at me in abject disgust, someone will ask me if I'm okay etc and people have actually helped me carry bags to my car and stuff. Guess it wasn't as bad as I thought after all, right?

Ultimately, what I'm trying to convey is that _everyone_ has their insecurities and neuroses about a variety of issues. Some days we feel better about them than others and speaking as a particularly large fella, yes, my size is something I am often conscious of but when I actually stop and think about it, you know what? That's *their* problem, not mine. They can suck my super sized apple bag for all I care.

In the past few years or so, despite my lack of mobility due to my spine and by this point, severe depression and anxiety, I went back to college to do a computer course and have even started *swimming* again. Me? Get almost nekkid in front of a load of strangers??! That's something I would never have even considered even a month prior to going back to college. Being put into social situations again helped me realise that the whole world isn't out to get me and those that are dicks to me are just that: Dicks! they'll probably be giving everyone grief for whatever they can because it's ultimately _them_ that have problems, not me. My confidence has slowly started to grow and since finding this place it has continued to do so at a healthy pace.

As for the other side of it, I was going out with a rather lovely, very large (but so short and cute) girl some years ago and despite me having all the empathy in the world for her, telling her and proving to her  that she had nothing to worry about whatsoever. Eventually she kind of hit self destruct the relationship. I was eight years older than her at the time and that was ultimately what she said was the issue although she admitted otherwise later. After we broke up we continued to be good friends and for all I've only physically seen her a couple of times after we ended, we stay in contact an a regular basis and I think a lot of what I was saying finally sunk in. Now she's got a great lad and is expecting her second daughter next month. 

Sorry to ramble so much but hopefully it might help. All I can suggest for the future is, if you get another lad with similar issues, wait until he inevitably broaches the subject of his size/shape/weight and just be straight with him, maybe even somewhat stern and explain your preference to him as you feel appropriate and maybe introduce him to this place. He'll realise that you aren't playing a prank or are some unexplainable phenomenon and he is just as desirable as anyone else out there. Maybe mention some of the insecurities you've experienced in the past. Try and create a level playing field so to speak. Let him know you're just as nervous or whatever. That's how I think my fears would be alleviated if I were still in that frame of mind.

For all I know I'm talking a load of bovine scat here, because I've never had any idea whatsoever when a girl has been interested in me and it's always been up to them to make the first move. After coming here though, my confidence has had a massive jump and I know longer avert my gaze from meeting a pretty girl's when she looks at me. I've even had a few smiles from them if you can believe it?!

Finally, I wish you all the best of luck in the future and I am *certain* you'll find big ol' cuddly Mr Right before you expect.

ps Where in the UK are you from and are there more of your adorable kind there? If so, I may need to relocate! 

Dave.


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## warwagon86 (Nov 26, 2013)

Sorry I do not have time to read all the replies only on a wee break at work!

In my experience if someone is not happy in themselves then there is nothing you can do about it sadly! Keep faith tho someday you will meet the right one and you will know it 

Im one of those confident BHMs but I still want to lose a little for my sports so I am faster and stronger! Just each to their own


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## dodobird (Nov 26, 2013)

All of these responses to mine and other questions are awesome, I like it here!!

Mr Gosh, your post was especially helpful because you know what I'm talking about from both sides. Maybe you're right, maybe I just need to be much more direct about what I like. The guy I was talking about kept using the word "fetish" on me, and I don't consider myself to have a fat "fetish", I just prefer bigger guys. Maybe that's just the way I've heard it used, to describe something a bit odd that's best kept quiet. But then it felt like that was what he meant. Like I couldn't just casually like big guys, I have to be confessing some twisted sexual secret. 

Oh, and I'm in Norfolk and we can always use more eye candy  I don't know whether I'd say there are more of my kind here, often when I mention my preference other girls will say they prefer chubby guys too - like, they like to ogle six-packed celebrities but that's not necessarily what they're after in a mate. The only actually *shocked* reaction was from a male colleague at my old job I used to chat with on the bus home: "You like FAT PEOPLE?!" Uh, yes. Yes I do.

Since posting here I've been getting increasingly angry about society. I keep noticing, in a way I didn't before, how many jokes and unpleasant comments are made about "fat people" on TV and in normal conversation. It's used as a synonym for "ugly" and a shortcut for cheap laughs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. I know this won't be news to you guys, but now that I'm noticing it I'm just finding it infuriating. Crap like this is why I can't find an emotionally healthy guy I find attractive and why the relationships I do get into are so difficult. Grr.


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 27, 2013)

dodobird said:


> All of these responses to mine and other questions are awesome, I like it here!!
> 
> Mr Gosh, your post was especially helpful because you know what I'm talking about from both sides. Maybe you're right, maybe I just need to be much more direct about what I like. The guy I was talking about kept using the word "fetish" on me, and I don't consider myself to have a fat "fetish", I just prefer bigger guys. Maybe that's just the way I've heard it used, to describe something a bit odd that's best kept quiet. But then it felt like that was what he meant. Like I couldn't just casually like big guys, I have to be confessing some twisted sexual secret.
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's annoying watching something like "Live at the Apollo", having a good time until BAM it's about you. And in a really aggressive, nasty way.


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## dodobird (Nov 27, 2013)

Sasquatch! said:


> Yeah, it's annoying watching something like "Live at the Apollo", having a good time until BAM it's about you. And in a really aggressive, nasty way.



Yeah, I'm genuinely shocked by how many comedy shows I've always enjoyed use that tired and hurtful crutch for a cheap joke in the way lazy comedians used to make jokes about things that are now (very rightly!) considered taboo, like race. Somehow fat jokes are seen as OK, like fat people DESERVE it, and that really angers me. This is why I can't have nice things!


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## Tad (Nov 27, 2013)

My son, being a teenage geek, religiously watches "Big Bang Theory" as a sort of representation of his tribe, so I'm exposed to it regularly. For the most part I don't mind the show, but I loathe all the jokes about how fat Howard's mother is, and the occasional other jokes about fat women that all imply they are a) undesirable and b) sexually desperate and ravenous.


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## dodobird (Nov 27, 2013)

Oh yes, TBBT as well! I'm an early-20s geek so I love it too but, again, they use those jokes in a really lazy way.


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## Mr Gosh (Nov 27, 2013)

dodobird said:


> Mr Gosh, your post was especially helpful because you know what I'm talking about from both sides. Maybe you're right, maybe I just need to be much more direct about what I like. The guy I was talking about kept using the word "fetish" on me, and I don't consider myself to have a fat "fetish", I just prefer bigger guys. Maybe that's just the way I've heard it used, to describe something a bit odd that's best kept quiet. But then it felt like that was what he meant. Like I couldn't just casually like big guys, I have to be confessing some twisted sexual secret.



The word fetish gets used out of ignorance due the fact that a) small minded people don't have the capacity to accept something they deem to be out of "the norm" and b) they don't understand it, therefore fear it, therefore label it a fetish.



> Oh, and I'm in Norfolk and we can always use more eye candy  I don't know whether I'd say there are more of my kind here, often when I mention my preference other girls will say they prefer chubby guys too - like, they like to ogle six-packed celebrities but that's not necessarily what they're after in a mate. The only actually *shocked* reaction was from a male colleague at my old job I used to chat with on the bus home: "You like FAT PEOPLE?!" Uh, yes. Yes I do.



Gaaaawwwwd! Tell me about it sista! If I ever try to talk to my mates about how I'm into short/petite girls they always take the p!ss. If I find pictures to show them what I like they're all, 'Oh, so you wanna shag a kid?' or, 'I didn't know you were into skinny boys?' or some other sh!t.



> Since posting here I've been getting increasingly angry about society. I keep noticing, in a way I didn't before, how many jokes and unpleasant comments are made about "fat people" on TV and in normal conversation. It's used as a synonym for "ugly" and a shortcut for cheap laughs ALL THE BLOODY TIME. I know this won't be news to you guys, but now that I'm noticing it I'm just finding it infuriating. Crap like this is why I can't find an emotionally healthy guy I find attractive and why the relationships I do get into are so difficult. Grr.



It's the way kids are bandying about the word "gay" as if it's a synonym for "lame" or "loser etc. This is something that really grinds my geeeaars.


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## Tad (Nov 27, 2013)

I was re-reading this thread, because there was so much goodness in here that I was sure Id not caught it all on the first pass. One thing jumped out at me, and raised all sorts of questions in my mind:



biglynch said:


> At the end of the day most people are easy going relaxed people regardless of size. They like affection, and enjoy attraction.



My immediate thought was Really? Most people? Then I thought maybe I was being too sceptical of the human race. My knee jerk reaction is that:
-	Some people would rather be right than be happy, and have absorbed that despising fat is the right thing to do.
-	Some people are mostly performance/success driven, so have little affection for anything that might hold them back, make them considered less capable, etc, so will always consider fat to be a weakness in our society.
-	Some people have an ideal for themselves, and will never give themselves approval or acceptance except for how well they are approaching that ideal.
-	Maybe a third of people are left, who would line up with what BigLynch said.

But I have no numbers supporting that, that was just my gut instinct, based on the people I know. But of course, I come from a particular place (geographically and culturally), and even if my gut instinct is correct for my setting, it may be way off in a broader sense (and Im not saying that it is right for my setting, either).

What do you all think? Do you think most people are easy-going and relaxed? Or not so much?


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## Mr Gosh (Nov 27, 2013)

Tad said:


> What do you all think? Do you think most people are easy-going and relaxed? Or not so much?



I'm totally with you on that one, Tad. My experience is one that has left me skeptical, jaded and _highly_ cynical.


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## LeoGibson (Nov 27, 2013)

dodobird said:


> Yeah, I'm genuinely shocked by how many comedy shows I've always enjoyed use that tired and hurtful crutch for a cheap joke in the way lazy comedians used to make jokes about things that are now (very rightly!) considered taboo, like race. Somehow fat jokes are seen as OK, like fat people DESERVE it, and that really angers me. This is why I can't have nice things!



I'm going to go slightly off-roading a bit here from your OP, but on this, I could not possibly agree with you any less. It is just not humanly possible to do so.

Fat people do deserve to be made fun of. As well as people of different races, religions, or atheists, or women, or pedophiles or dumb people, or really anyone or anything. I feel lines shouldn't be drawn and if you can laugh at something and take the piss out of it to borrow a phrase from an Irish friend of mine, you take power over that. It makes things less taboo to talk about instead of more taboo.

The thing to remember, especially if you like comedy or comedians is that comedy at its essence is one person poking fun at another or at another's expense or misfortune. You can't be hypocritical and laugh at all the jokes until the comedian hits a topic near and dear to you. At that point you just ought to grin and bear it a little and know it's your turn in the ringer.

Also, to paraphrase a Joan Rivers quote, "Everybody is something. Everybody is black, or fat, or Asian, or gay, or a Jew, or whatever." Insert you personal cause du jour. So it get really dumb and hypocritical to say waht can and cannot be made fun of.

That's my thought on where comedy fits in. Note, I am talking about actual comedians and not just some drunken lout on the street. If someone like that is offensive, then they deserve to get socked in the nose. You gotta know your audience!


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## Amaranthine (Nov 27, 2013)

Mr Gosh said:


> The word fetish gets used out of ignorance due the fact that a) small minded people don't have the capacity to accept something they deem to be out of "the norm" and b) they don't understand it, therefore fear it, therefore label it a fetish.



I think that's a little harsh, but there's already a huge debate over whether using the term "fetish" is ever appropriate when it comes to fat. Sure, it's inappropriate when someone merely has a preference. But that's definitely not all FAs. 



Tad said:


> I was re-reading this thread, because there was so much goodness in here that I was sure Id not caught it all on the first pass. One thing jumped out at me, and raised all sorts of questions in my mind:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your first bullet point really stuck out to me, because I've spent awhile musing over the same thing. I'm not saying the pursuit of truth isn't noble or worthwhile...but the fact that people will get so engrossed in "being right" over being happy or bringing happiness to others really bugs me. 

I'm inclined to say that many people are easy-going in the environment + circumstances that they're comfortable in. But they're often all too inclined to judge and be overly sententious in the face of anything that they don't agree with. 



LeoGibson said:


> Fat people do deserve to be made fun of. As well as people of different races, religions, or atheists, or women, or pedophiles or dumb people, or really anyone or anything. I feel lines shouldn't be drawn and if you can laugh at something and take the piss out of it to borrow a phrase from an Irish friend of mine, you take power over that. It makes things less taboo to talk about instead of more taboo.



I can't rep you at the moment, so I'll just note that I couldn't agree more. People need to learn to laugh more and take things a little less seriously. Not completely un-seriously. But I firmly believe there's a little (or a lot) of humor in pretty much everything. It definitely helps bring things out into the open and enables people to discuss them more freely.


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## Mr Gosh (Nov 27, 2013)

Amaranthine said:


> I think that's a little harsh, but there's already a huge debate over whether using the term "fetish" is ever appropriate when it comes to fat. Sure, it's inappropriate when someone merely has a preference. But that's definitely not all FAs.



I only said that because most recorded definitions of the word Fetish imply an "abnormal" or "excessive" level of sexual desire towards something, which, is also necessary to facilitate complete sexual satisfaction.

I find all kinds of people to be sexually attractive for a myriad of reasons but I simply have certain preferences, such as short and petite. I don't feel an overwhelming _need_ to attain that; nor is it necessary in bringing about satisfactory sexual gratification; I simply prefer that. Most men and women have preferences such hair colour, boob size, height, body shape & size. (Sound familiar?) They, however, do not get critisised for their preferences, nor are they deemed to be fetishistic.

Whilst I'm sure there will be a minority element within the FA community that will display behavior indicative of obsession, most community members do not hold similar feelings. A similar element can be found in almost any prominent aspect of a particular culture/subculture. As I always say at the height of cynicism: Wherever you go and however at peace you feel, sooner or later, some dick is gonna come along and piss on your chips. Why? Simply because they're a dick. Dicks are *everywhere.*

I should've went into more detail in my original post, but I tend to waffle on enough as it is when I'm baked; as is quite apparent, I feel. :blush:


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## dodobird (Nov 28, 2013)

LeoGibson said:


> I'm going to go slightly off-roading a bit here from your OP, but on this, I could not possibly agree with you any less. It is just not humanly possible to do so.
> 
> Fat people do deserve to be made fun of. As well as people of different races, religions, or atheists, or women, or pedophiles or dumb people, or really anyone or anything. I feel lines shouldn't be drawn and if you can laugh at something and take the piss out of it to borrow a phrase from an Irish friend of mine, you take power over that. It makes things less taboo to talk about instead of more taboo.
> 
> ...



At the risk of sounding self-righteous, I don't find jokes about ANY of those things funny. With the possible exception of paedophiles, and other wrong-doers whose feelings I do not particularly care about. It is very possible to be funny without falling back on ANY of those. If you're a good person you do not "deserve" to be made fun of, end of story.

We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of comedy but you're making a lot of assumptions about me and my sense of humour to call me a hypocrite and it's not really OK to call anyone "dumb".


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## LeoGibson (Nov 28, 2013)

dodobird said:


> At the risk of sounding self-righteous, I don't find jokes about ANY of those things funny. With the possible exception of paedophiles, and other wrong-doers whose feelings I do not particularly care about. It is very possible to be funny without falling back on ANY of those. If you're a good person you do not "deserve" to be made fun of, end of story.
> 
> We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of comedy but you're making a lot of assumptions about me and my sense of humour to call me a hypocrite and it's not really OK to call anyone "dumb".



Actually, I don't know you personally, or anything about you. So I made no assumptions about *you* in particular. My post was not directed at you personally, I used your post as a springboard to give my opinion about comedy and the *you* I'm referencing is the collective you not the individual you. My apologies if you took it so, but it wasn't meant to be directed to you personally, sometimes intent and nuance get lost in the written word.

I still stand by it as being hypocritical thinking though if anyone can laugh at anything else being made fun of until it gets to an issue that is something you care about.

Name one example if you can of humor that is not at the expense of someone or something.


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## dodobird (Nov 28, 2013)

LeoGibson said:


> Actually, I don't know you personally, or anything about you. So I made no assumptions about *you* in particular. My post was not directed at you personally, I used your post as a springboard to give my opinion about comedy and the *you* I'm referencing is the collective you not the individual you. My apologies if you took it so, but it wasn't meant to be directed to you personally, sometimes intent and nuance get lost in the written word.
> 
> I still stand by it as being hypocritical thinking though if anyone can laugh at anything else being made fun of until it gets to an issue that is something you care about.
> 
> Name one example if you can of humor that is not at the expense of someone or something.



Well, I take issue with your sudden introduction of "something" as well as "someone", but the first thing that springs to mind as a piece of comedy that doesn't make fun of a person or group is one of my favourites, Eddie Izzard's Death Star Canteen. Eddie is one of my favourite comedians and almost exclusively pokes fun at history, movies and inanimate objects.


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## LeoGibson (Nov 28, 2013)

dodobird said:


> Well, I take issue with your sudden introduction of "something" as well as "someone", but the first thing that springs to mind as a piece of comedy that doesn't make fun of a person or group is one of my favourites, Eddie Izzard's Death Star Canteen. Eddie is one of my favourite comedians and almost exclusively pokes fun at history, movies and inanimate objects.



I put something and someone so that I could fully clarify my thought since the first post was not as clear as I could have made it. 

I like Eddie Izzard as well. He is a brilliant comic. But even in this fairly benign clip you linked I could use your above logic and find offense with it If I was an overly sensitive politically correct person. He made fun of child abuse, Americans, and I grant you this is a little bit of a stretch, but the whole premise resolves around workplace violence at the hands of an authority figure. Go ahead and groan now  I know that is a reach, but there are people that could take that from it. 

I find comedy to be art. As such I never want to see art of any kind censored in any way. That is the whole of my thoughts on the subject. As you noted above, we'll probably have to agree to disagree.


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## dodobird (Nov 28, 2013)

LeoGibson said:


> I put something and someone so that I could fully clarify my thought since the first post was not as clear as I could have made it.
> 
> I like Eddie Izzard as well. He is a brilliant comic. But even in this fairly benign clip you linked I could use your above logic and find offense with it If I was an overly sensitive politically correct person. He made fun of child abuse, Americans, and I grant you this is a little bit of a stretch, but the whole premise resolves around workplace violence at the hands of an authority figure. Go ahead and groan now  I know that is a reach, but there are people that could take that from it.
> 
> I find comedy to be art. As such I never want to see art of any kind censored in any way. That is the whole of my thoughts on the subject. As you noted above, we'll probably have to agree to disagree.



That is not using my logic. That is extrapolating what you perceive my argument to be to a ridiculous level to form a shaky conclusion. I'm not "overly sensitive" and looking for things to be offended by. I haven't even given an example of something I find offensive. I said the prevalence of fat jokes in the media and real life makes me angry. You said I had no right to be angered by that if I'm going to laugh at other groups being made fun of. I said I don't laugh at that and think it's possible to be funny without making fun of anyone. You asked for an example, I gave you Eddie Izzard. You then fabricated a list of things that a hypothetical "overly sensitive politically correct person" might find to be offended by in it. 

Whether those things are there to find or not is a separate issue, but I am not that "overly sensitive politically correct person". I am not squinting hard at every piece of comedy I watch and saying "Oooh, he mentioned a bad thing!!" I said that using "fat" as a synonym for "ugly" and a shortcut to a cheap laugh is lazy, unfunny and unnecessary. That is the whole of MY thoughts on the subject. You just seem to have decided to pick a fight with me over it and then say that I (or people like me, which amounts to the same thing) am "overly sensitive", "hypocritical" and "dumb".

I'm not advocating censorship. Sure, comedy is an art, but in the same way as I wouldn't be impressed by someone letting their cat walk over a keyboard and publishing the result as literature, I'm underwhelmed by comedians falling back on fat jokes.


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 28, 2013)

My beef is to do with intent, laziness, delivery and impact beyond the joke.

A lot of jokes about fat people tend to be rather aggressive and aren't about having a laugh. They're most often just insults. This attitude carries over into real life.
People find fat people disgusting, so let's come up with an insult and call it a joke. LAZY.


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## LeoGibson (Nov 28, 2013)

dodobird said:


> That is not using my logic. That is extrapolating what you perceive my argument to be to a ridiculous level to form a shaky conclusion. I'm not "overly sensitive" and looking for things to be offended by. I haven't even given an example of something I find offensive. I said the prevalence of fat jokes in the media and real life makes me angry. You said I had no right to be angered by that if I'm going to laugh at other groups being made fun of. I said I don't laugh at that and think it's possible to be funny without making fun of anyone. You asked for an example, I gave you Eddie Izzard. You then fabricated a list of things that a hypothetical "overly sensitive politically correct person" might find to be offended by in it.
> 
> Whether those things are there to find or not is a separate issue, but I am not that "overly sensitive politically correct person". I am not squinting hard at every piece of comedy I watch and saying "Oooh, he mentioned a bad thing!!" I said that using "fat" as a synonym for "ugly" and a shortcut to a cheap laugh is lazy, unfunny and unnecessary. That is the whole of MY thoughts on the subject. You just seem to have decided to pick a fight with me over it and then say that I (or people like me, which amounts to the same thing) am "overly sensitive", "hypocritical" and "dumb".
> 
> I'm not advocating censorship. Sure, comedy is an art, but in the same way as I wouldn't be impressed by someone letting their cat walk over a keyboard and publishing the result as literature, I'm underwhelmed by comedians falling back on fat jokes.



One of the things I really dislike about the internet is when people infer what you are trying to say instead of taking what you said at face value. If I wanted to say I found you to be a overly sensitive, politically correct person I would have phrased my sentence different. I would have said, " If I was an overly sensitive, politically correct person such as yourself I would find offense." But that is not what I typed. I said, "If *I* was an overly sensitive, politically correct person." Of which, we do have in abundance here in the states.

Also, while I did dig a bit to show you where someone *could* be offended by that bit, I stand by it and what I put out there from the first in that all comedy is going to offend someone. That is the nature of comedy. While you may dismiss my examples as being absurd, I'll stand by the fact that people who have been either a victim of child abuse, or anti-American or New Yorker sentiments, or a victim of workplace bullying from their boss or other authority figure could find offense with that Eddie Izzard bit you posted. You may not see how, because it is none of your hot-button issues, but that doesn't make them any less so for someone who does feel that way.

Look, it's a holiday here, and I'll admit I'm enjoying a spirited debate while having spirits! But here's the deal, it is not a fight, it is two adults disagreeing, hopefully without being disagreeable about it. I also think you are a lovely young lady who feels very deeply about those she cares about and very passionately about any injustice that is aimed towards those she cares about, and anyone who feels passionately about anything in this world in this day and age cannot be all wrong or all bad in my book. So on this issue we will probably never ever see eye to eye, and that's ok. Have a great weekend upcoming and enjoy life! See you around the boards!


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## LeoGibson (Nov 28, 2013)

Sasquatch! said:


> My beef is to do with intent, laziness, delivery and impact beyond the joke.
> 
> A lot of jokes about fat people tend to be rather aggressive and aren't about having a laugh. They're most often just insults. This attitude carries over into real life.
> People find fat people disgusting, so let's come up with an insult and call it a joke. LAZY.



You are right Sassy. There are *bad* comics, just like bad actors. or musicians, or songwriters, or painters. I choose not to support or even waste time absorbing their art. But, when done well, and crafted artistically, and not a lazy, hack joke, I will laugh heartily at a joke even if it is at my expense, just so long as it is well done!


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## Sasquatch! (Nov 28, 2013)

LeoGibson said:


> You are right Sassy. There are *bad* comics, just like bad actors. or musicians, or songwriters, or painters. I choose not to support or even waste time absorbing their art. But, when done well, and crafted artistically, and not a lazy, hack joke, I will laugh heartily at a joke even if it is at my expense, just so long as it is well done!



Yes. *fist bump*


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## biglynch (Nov 29, 2013)

Back when I was in college I used to write and perform bits of stand up comedy, and one of my routines was based on a prank we did on the tube. Essentially the prank was simple, me and another fat mate of mine Paul would find a person on the tube and sit either side of them and we would get real comfy in our seats basically squashing them a bit. The reactions varied but were always funny.

So the routine. My opening line I would identify all the fat people in the crowd, then tell them they disgusted me. This is why, due to years of negligent chair use on trains, busses, planes, cinemas and even now in my audience they were not enjoying the full chair they are in. I would then encourage them to right now reclaim that seat, listen to the groan of the persons next to them, and most of all enjoy the tension as they squirm. Now is the time to stop sitting in 65% of the isle seat and leaving your leg flapping at your side. Push up and let them know fat people have elbows too! 

The joke is simply youre too fat for your seat. I felt I dealt with it well enough to not be offensive.

I will try to find the whole thing, as it was one of my better bits.


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## scrambledegg (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm not sure I can add much here, but as a UK based BHM who has been in this scene a long long time I can identify what you said about your previous boyfriends. 

Society in general, our families and friends, colleagues etc all tell us that it's wrong to be fat. If I lose a few pounds, people I hardly know at work will congratulate me. Naturally they won't say a word (at least to my face anyway) if the opposite happens. 

I think you have to have a reasonable amount of confidence to get past all of that. I grew up slim, so I never got bullied in school and I think that's important. Bullying in schools can be horrific at times and it must be even worse now with everyone having facebook and mobiles etc (god I sound so old at just 28 lol). So I suppose I left school without any confidence or self loathing issues, and then gradually got fatter from age 18 onwards.

I can remember when I was about 21, I had put on about 4 stone in the previous 3 years, and my girlfriend at the time had also gained about 3 stone (we loved to eat out). She absolutely hated the extra weight on both herself and on me. I actually really enjoyed her chubby belly and bigger boobs, but no amount of persuasion could make her believe that. She truly thought that she was disgusting, and I must have been lying to say that I fancied her. In the end it was one of the things that forced us apart, as the physical side of our relationship died and we practically became friends rather than lovers, till we both agreed to call it a day.

It was not long after that, that I discovered this place and FF, and since then I've been lucky enough to meet / date several lovely FFA's, which gives me the confidence to be proud of my 22 stone body, and to enjoy gaining weight. I think I would have really struggled without sites like these, as I love to eat so I'd always have been fat, though perhaps not as fat as I am now.

Hopefully this post makes sense. I'm stupidly tired and hungover right now!


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## bigmac (Dec 15, 2013)

LeoGibson said:


> ...
> 
> Fat people do deserve to be made fun of. As well as people of different races, religions, or atheists, or women, or pedophiles or dumb people, or really anyone or anything. I feel lines shouldn't be drawn and if you can laugh at something and take the piss out of it to borrow a phrase from an Irish friend of mine, you take power over that. It makes things less taboo to talk about instead of more taboo.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is indeed possible to take ownership of one's condition be it fatness, gayness, blackness, Jewishness ... through comedy . However, I draw the line when it comes to mean spirited jokes. Unfortunately many (if not most) fat jokes are mean spirited and hurtful. Comedians who rely on such material are playing to the most base human instincts. They are not helping to empower anyone (other than bullies) and should not be supported in any way.


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## LeoGibson (Dec 15, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Yes, it is indeed possible to take ownership of one's condition be it fatness, gayness, blackness, Jewishness ... through comedy . However, I draw the line when it comes to *mean spirited jokes*. Unfortunately many (if not most) fat jokes are mean spirited and hurtful. Comedians who rely on such material are playing to the most base human instincts. They are not helping to empower anyone (other than bullies) and should not be supported in any way.



At the risk of derailing this thread again, all I simply wish to point out is that comedy, at its core, *is mean-spirited.* Now there are pure things that humans can laugh at, for instance I get great joy and laughter just from watching my dogs play. But comedy is pretty much always at the expense of someone else. The thing is, that unless it hits close to your home (the collective your as opposed to you specifically) you can laugh about it. That is why I consider no topic off-limits in comedy. There are times when I have to turn the dial on the TV when some comics do some routines that hit close to home for me and make me cringe, but I don't want them not to be able to do it. Some that are very clever have even had me laughing at some issues that before I would have been made uncomfortable by and in turn helped me rethink my feelings about certain things. You would be hard pressed to find a comedy bit that isn't shitting on someone to a certain extent.

Anyways, back to the relationship talk, of which I have zero useful information to pass along!


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## ODFFA (Jan 8, 2015)

Heres a question for anyone to mull over with me. 

I know that relationship means different things to different people and that there are various kinds. Ive been trying not to get too hung up on relationship security, live in the moment and take things as they come. But....I feel I have a lot to give and, to be honest, that scares me. I dont want to take away any mans freedom or ever make them feel obligated to be with me. Least of all someone I love. Hard as Ive been trying to adjust my expectations, I cant get over the scary-ness of giving so much of myself to someone with the thought that I have no guarantees of still being loved next month, or next week. But also, I struggle with the thought of withholding my affection.

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt ask anyone to promise me forever. Thats one notion I have no problem letting go of. But I would so much like for a guy to WANT me in his foreseeable future. I fear that an amazing man will walk into my life with the best of intentions, only to find down the line that this one-woman business is terribly unfulfilling. 

There are enough other challenges to a relationship without people feeling they have to deny their greatest needs. And I know there are many other reasons why people end things. That kind of trial and error I can live with. There are things about myself I work on and Im always cognizant of being a pleasant person to date.

I still just wonder if its even realistic to want a fulfilling long-term relationship. And sometimes I also wonder why certain aspects of the male/female psychological make-up seem so incompatible. Im starting to feel like being loved deeply -- albeit through the peaks and troughs -- for any length of time is too much to ask. But, as much as I would like to embrace the realities of life, Id never wanted anything more. Trying to let go of that is the hardest thing Ive ever done.


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## djudex (Jan 8, 2015)

ODFFA said:


> Heres a question for anyone to mull over with me.
> 
> I know that relationship means different things to different people and that there are various kinds. Ive been trying not to get too hung up on relationship security, live in the moment and take things as they come. But....I feel I have a lot to give and, to be honest, that scares me. I dont want to take away any mans freedom or ever make them feel obligated to be with me. Least of all someone I love. Hard as Ive been trying to adjust my expectations, I cant get over the scary-ness of giving so much of myself to someone with the thought that I have no guarantees of still being loved next month, or next week. But also, I struggle with the thought of withholding my affection.
> 
> ...



I don't think it is something you should be giving up on, men who want long term relationships do indeed exist. I for one am quite looking forward to finding someone to spend the rest of my life with even if most people these days find that to be an outdated notion.

*Disclaimer- Generalizations ahead! The author realizes and agrees that the following scenarios and/or descriptions do not apply to 100% of all people. Please unbunch your undies and read the following in the spirit it was intended.

To me you've got three hard strikes against you at this point in your life; one, presumably you're looking for someone close to your own age to date and I'm sorry but a large portion of the men in that age range are just immature with little to nil self awareness. Two, the physicality you are attracted to tends to produce men who are even more on the immature and low self esteem end of the pool. Fat guys by and large (pun intended) have less experience with women and doubt their ability to keep a woman after years of societal conditioning. Three, ... Fuck I forgot what my third point was going to be but rest assured it was well thought out and appropriate when I was able to remember it!

Dang it...ah well, when I do remember it I'll post it back in here.


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## tankyguy (Jan 8, 2015)

Here's the hard science behind it.
'Why Do Humans Form Long-Term
Mateships? An Evolutionary
Game-Theoretic Model'

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/home...s/AESP Conroy-Beam, Goetz, and Buss, 2014.pdf

So romantic.




ODFFA said:


> But....I feel I have a lot to give and, to be honest, that scares me. I don’t want to take away any man’s freedom or ever make them feel obligated to be with me. Least of all someone I love.



You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. The right person, and someone who loves you, will not be looking at being with you as removing their freedom. [edit fixing comma]

There are plenty of men out there that want someone they can be with forever. Simply look at these forums. How many of the BHM on here would you call 'players' and how many have expressed their desire to settle down with someone to love them? It wouldn't be unfair to say a good portion of BHM on here are hopeless romantics.
:wubu:

As djudex said, immaturity comes into play; it's quite possible men in your age range have not reached that stage of their life yet they are seeking a LTR. Many men want to settle down with someone, but most do not feel that way when they are younger. This is natural as men are hardwired to build a resource pool and secure the ability to support a mate before they settle down with one. 

However, I'd be remiss to not mention the economic realities and cultural upheaval that present obstacles to LTRs (the marriage rate is dropping and the divorce rate was climbing but has momentarily leveled off).

Male unemployment is rising and fewer men are earning college degrees (at the current trajectory, the last US male will graduate in 2065). I have no interest in getting into an argument on gender roles, but the reality is that if women still seek a man who fits the bill as a provider (studies show 75% of women, even when they themselves don't need financial support, flat out refuse to date unemployed men) and men don't pursue long term relationships until they feel stable enough to do so, women are selecting from an ever shrinking pool of eligible candidates. 

Especially, if one is pursuing BHM. Fat/obesity is a marker of low status and poverty these days, especially given the increased competition for jobs. The reality is that if a employer has a choice between two applicants of similar skill/experience, the fat guy is going to be passed over. The Venn diagram of Successful Men and Obese Men is small and is getting smaller.

In short, don't be too hard on yourself. Forces beyond your control are conspiring against you finding true love, but your true love is out there, also looking for you.


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## ODFFA (Jan 8, 2015)

djudex said:


> I don't think it is something you should be giving up on, men who want long term relationships do indeed exist. [Snip...]





tankyguy said:


> You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. The right person, and someone who loves you will, not be looking at being with you as removing their freedom. [Snip...]



I seriously want to thank you both for taking the time to drop your 2 cents in. I love how much thought people put into replying to things like this. And... you're right. You're both right.

I've been viewing the world of romance through some very cracked lenses, for vaaarious reasons (including some of the ones cited in both your conspiracy theories), and I just caved in to what reality *felt like to me right then. I'm glad I posted it, though. Some more objective points of view were exactly what the doctor ordered. This'll be so helpful to look back on whenever the temptation hits to revisit the broken glasses. I believe they belong to my dad anyway. He can have them back.

Cheesy analogies aside, I really really appreciate it :bow:


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## bigmac (Jan 8, 2015)

ODFFA said:


> ...
> 
> I still just wonder if its even realistic to want a fulfilling long-term relationship. And sometimes I also wonder why certain aspects of the male/female psychological make-up seem so incompatible. Im starting to feel like being loved deeply -- albeit through the peaks and troughs -- for any length of time is too much to ask. But, as much as I would like to embrace the realities of life, Id never wanted anything more. Trying to let go of that is the hardest thing Ive ever done.



People need to realize that long term relationships are essentially economic in nature. If one or both parties to a relationship are dead weight the relationship is likely doomed. If a person wants to be part of a long-term relationship the first step is to ensure that they bring something to the table.

The best way to increase one's marketability is by getting an education and/or a career.


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## lucca23v2 (Jan 8, 2015)

ODFFA.. I know how you feel. Honestly, I wonder the same thing. in this age of "Hey if it doesn't work out we just get divorced" it is hard to find someone who wants to be in it for the long haul. 

I think people tend to rush things. Things are good for 6 months or a year and they are off getting married and divorced within 5 years. I think people need to get to know each other. The good the bad and the ugly. then you have to really think if your character, your person can really deal with this persons characteristics for the next 50 60 years of your life.

Marriage/partnerships, committed relationships should be thought of as long lasting.. not as a here today gone tomorrow type of thing.

In girl terms... long term relationships are not fast fashion... they are not fads.. they are* style*.. JMO

All that being said, don't give up. there are plenty of men that are looking for just that kind of relationship that you are looking for. For some it found quickly, for others it takes longer, but it is out there.


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## Tad (Jan 8, 2015)

bigmac said:


> People need to realize that long term relationships are essentially economic in nature. If one or both parties to a relationship are dead weight the relationship is likely doomed. If a person wants to be part of a long-term relationship the first step is to ensure that they bring something to the table.
> 
> The best way to increase one's marketability is by getting an education and/or a career.



Sometimes I really wonder if we are of the same species, so different are our takes on things.... or possibly you are using 'economic' in a very broad sense to indicate all the things that one brings to a relationship (warm hugs, a willingness to clean the cat's litter box, an awesome carrot soup recipe....).

If we really want to look at relationships through an economic lens, Id look at ideal communismfrom each according to their means, to each according to their need. As with all cases of ideal communism, that only works if everyone involved is more interested in making the association work than in what they can get for themselves.

Mind you, even from a selfish point of view, it is possible to think you contribute more to the relationship than does your partner, but to _also _feel all the richer for being in that partnership! It is the wonders of specialization, division of labour, and efficiencies of scale. Two people pulling together consume less resources while generating more output that two individuals going their own path. So I guess we can thank Adam Smith for putting economic theory around something people have known since before modern humans evolved.


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## tankyguy (Jan 8, 2015)

Tad said:


> If we really want to look at relationships through an economic lens, Id look at ideal communismfrom each according to their means, to each according to their need.



Forget that noise. Laissez-faire Objectivist relationships for the win.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLEguFOlvXI[/ame]
:batting:


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## Xyantha Reborn (Jan 8, 2015)

I rewrote this post like five times! Why do the intertubes hate me today? GAH!


Be relentless and open. You are worth it! There are so many guys looking for a long term relationship...but keep in mind that marriage or its equivalent for _some_ guys (and girls) is terrifying. They see their uncles, buds, brothers get screwed over financially and emotionally.They see them forced into having children that they didn't really want, then having to pay support to barely see them. They fall for a girl only to have her throw him aside. Some guys also see it as a sexual limitation. "It's like eating pizza for the rest of your life" ....."

The right guy will be like "pizza? forever!? THATS AWESOME! I LOVE PIZZA!" 

And you will love him loving pizza. Literal pizza, not figurative pizza.



I agree with bringing something to the table; it doesn't have to be equal. In fact, if it is long term, it probably wont be. 

I edited my guy's essays until 2am in the morning when he NEEDED that for school. He bought me a computer when I was so poor I couldn't afford it. The government sent him a tax assessment with a shifted zero (omg) and I helped him through that stress. He helped pay my car loan. Suddenly I had a way better job and I started paying down _his_ debts. Our financial status and availability have fluctuated, with each of us bearing up when the other needs it. I can almost guarantee my income will exceed his...but that doesn't matter, because all of our money is pooled anywho.

I think if we are going to involve economics, the law of diminishing return comes into effect. If your partner is not 'trying' (fixed input) there is a tipping point in the relationship where you are no longer receiving the same benefit, no matter how much energy you throw into it (increased input).

In my experience the older men are generally more inclined to settle down. I married a guy 10 years older because his maturity matched mine, and he was done with his party years. 

Be honest about what you want from the relationship up front; if he isn't interested, let him bolt.


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## lucca23v2 (Jan 8, 2015)

Xyantha.... I so wish I could rep you for that comment! Since I can't right now.. I will put it on my "people to rep" list so that when it comes back up.. I will remember to rep you!

That comment hits the nail on the head.


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## tankyguy (Jan 8, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> They see their uncles, buds, brothers get screwed over financially and emotionally.They see them forced into having children that they didn't really want, then having to pay support to barely see them. They fall for a girl only to have her throw him aside.



That's the dark side of marriage. Often, people forget women can take advantage of men too.


Xyantha knows the score. The LTRs that work out are ones based on egalitarianism and mutual support. People stay together when they compliment the other person and their goals.


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## bigmac (Jan 8, 2015)

Tad said:


> Sometimes I really wonder if we are of the same species, so different are our takes on things.... or possibly you are using 'economic' in a very broad sense to indicate all the things that one brings to a relationship (warm hugs, a willingness to clean the cat's litter box, an awesome carrot soup recipe....).
> 
> If we really want to at relationships through an economic lens, I’d look at ideal communism—“from each according to their means, to each according to their need.” As with all cases of ideal communism, that only works if everyone involved is more interested in making the association work than in what they can get for themselves.
> 
> Mind you, even from a selfish point of view, it is possible to think you contribute more to the relationship than does your partner, but to _also _feel all the richer for being in that partnership! It is the wonders of specialization, division of labour, and efficiencies of scale. Two people pulling together consume less resources while generating more output that two individuals going their own path. So I guess we can thank Adam Smith for putting economic theory around something people have known since before modern humans evolved.



The reality is that marriage has historically been an economic transaction. For a short period -- and only for the fortunate -- the idea of purely romantic love flourished. Today the hard reality of North American life dictates that to live even a moderately comfortable life most couples require two incomes. The economic imperative has returned.

Studies show that the emotion most toxic to a relationship is contempt. If one party to a relationship is not pulling their weight its likely this toxic emotion will rear its head. Thus a relationship of equals striving together is the most stable kind of relationship.


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## ODFFA (Jan 9, 2015)

tankyguy said:


> That's the dark side of marriage. Often, people forget women can take advantage of men too.
> 
> 
> Xyantha knows the score. *The LTRs that work out are ones based on egalitarianism and mutual support.* People stay together when they compliment the other person and their goals.



Absolutely, this. People do often forget that women take advantage as well. I have a very good guy-friend to whom this happened. His girlfriend _was_ my best friend at the time. Mind you, this was minus the marriage and the children, but he got screwed over nonetheless.

Also, I was married. For.... 3.5 years. We lived in England. I thought we were coming back to SA for a short vacation. The day after we landed, he asked me for a divorce. I never got to say goodbye to my life in England and have been back in SA ever since. Surprisingly though, our divorce was finalised within a few months of all that and was quite amicable.

So, make no mistake, marriage terrifies me too. Matter of fact, *if I ever get married again, it will be anything but rushed. But I'm under no illusion of women being the only ones who get fucked over. For the record -- not that I think anyone assumed this, but it's worth saying -- my question wasn't really "Are there any nice men in the world?" I know loads of truly fantastic blokes. It really was just "Is it realistic to want a monogamous LTR as a human being?" And, granted, the question was born out of the difficult feels 

But yes, what all of you have said is extremely helpful and they are things I really needed to be reminded of <3


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## bigmac (Jan 9, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> ... They see their uncles, buds, brothers get screwed over financially and emotionally.They see them forced into having children that they didn't really want, then having to pay support to barely see them. They fall for a girl only to have her throw him aside. ...



This is exactly why people must consider the economic factors.

The strongest marriages are where both parties are educated and are invested in their careers. This creates a strong incentive to stay together for two reasons (only one economic). The economic reason is obvious -- when such relationships do end both parties suffer hence an incentive to stay together. A fringe benefit is that when your _significant other_ has a challenging career he or she is much more likely to remain an interesting vibrant person who'd be hard to replace -- again an incentive to stay together.


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## Tad (Jan 9, 2015)

bigmac said:


> This is exactly why people must consider the economic factors.
> 
> The strongest marriages are where both parties are educated and are invested in their careers. This creates a strong incentive to stay together for two reasons (only one economic). The economic reason is obvious -- when such relationships do end both parties suffer hence an incentive to stay together. A fringe benefit is that when your _significant other_ has a challenging career he or she is much more likely to remain an interesting vibrant person who'd be hard to replace -- again an incentive to stay together.



Mac--would you care to moderate your wording, in deference to anyone who is not in this situation but who thinks that they have a mighty strong relationship? Or, heck, whose parents or grandparents didn't have this sort of relationship but lived a love story that could make you weep?

Simply adding "In my opinion" or even "In my experience" in front of a lot of your posts would make them go down a lot more easily. The really universal statements certainly get _my _back up when you assert something that is counter to my experiences, and I suspect that this is true of a fair number other people, too, based on responses that I see to a lot of your posts.

You are a smart, educated, experienced, guy, but that doesn't mean that you are omniscient--so it would be polite of you to allow for that in how you say things online (in person, of course, is quite different due to the presence of tone of voice, body language, etc).


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## LeoGibson (Jan 10, 2015)

bigmac said:


> The reality is that marriage has historically been an economic transaction. For a short period -- and only for the fortunate -- the idea of purely romantic love flourished. Today the hard reality of North American life dictates that to live even a moderately comfortable life most couples require two incomes. The economic imperative has returned.
> 
> Studies show that the emotion most toxic to a relationship is contempt. If one party to a relationship is not pulling their weight its likely this toxic emotion will rear its head. Thus a relationship of equals striving together is the most stable kind of relationship.





bigmac said:


> This is exactly why people must consider the economic factors.
> 
> The strongest marriages are where both parties are educated and are invested in their careers. This creates a strong incentive to stay together for two reasons (only one economic). The economic reason is obvious -- when such relationships do end both parties suffer hence an incentive to stay together. A fringe benefit is that when your _significant other_ has a challenging career he or she is much more likely to remain an interesting vibrant person who'd be hard to replace -- again an incentive to stay together.



Well I'll be a cotton pickin' sonofabitch. I'm gonna have to run home and tell my wife of 17 years that we might as well go ahead and split up now. There's no way we can have a long marriage since we don't fit under your parameters for a successful LTR. She has stayed home mostly the entire time of it and runs the household while I work. So since we only have one income our life must be unbearably uncomfortable. Also, since she has a little college and I have none at all, we surely must be doomed. Huh, here it is after all this time and we didn't even realize we held each other in so much damn contempt. Anyone got the name of a good divorce lawyer? 



ODFFA said:


> Heres a question for anyone to mull over with me.
> 
> I know that relationship means different things to different people and that there are various kinds. Ive been trying not to get too hung up on relationship security, live in the moment and take things as they come. But....I feel I have a lot to give and, to be honest, that scares me. I dont want to take away any mans freedom or ever make them feel obligated to be with me. Least of all someone I love. Hard as Ive been trying to adjust my expectations, I cant get over the scary-ness of giving so much of myself to someone with the thought that I have no guarantees of still being loved next month, or next week. But also, I struggle with the thought of withholding my affection.
> 
> ...



Well after giving this some thought. I have come up with the notion that in truth, all things in this life are transitory. Our lifespan is not even a blink in the eye of time. We are transitory. The earth itself is transitory, always evolving and changing and will one day be gone and in the history of time, that will be but a blip on the screen. What I'm getting at is that all things come and go. We have no guarantee of how long they actually will last, but to me the goal of this life is to cram it full of love and life experiences. There's no telling what comes next, we all have thoughts and ideas, but we don't know for 100% certainty. So I don't want to sit on the sidelines for this one. There will be ups and downs, good and bad, but they all blend together to make us who we are and it lets us bring a new dynamic to the next relationship after one goes bad. 

Now, I'm not saying it is easy, or it won't hurt sometimes. But in my opinion it's worth it to throw caution to the wind and love fearlessly and with abandon. Hope and plan for forever but enjoy the time you do have with the person that you feel that way about and if it doesn't go until the end of your life, then try and look back on each one with fondness and love after a suitable time of healing has passed.

One other thing, and I'm fully aware that it takes both parties feeling the same way, but don't get lazy or give up. That's what sustains a long relationship. There will be times you don't much like each other, they will get on your nerves just by being on this earth, and you will do the same to them, but remember, that too is transitory. Don't give up because it has suddenly gotten harder to love them. As long as they are not abusive or cheating or engaging in some other egregious activity, then hang in there until you reach the other side. When you make it over those rugged mountains and get down into the next valley of your relationship, what you learn about yourself and your partner sinks your bond that much deeper and evolves your relationship to an even stronger and sweeter place. But that is easier said than done, and both need to feel the same way. One alone can't make it happen, although you may go through these times separately, where they are just fine with everything and you can't stand them, I've found that it happens that way more often than the two being at each other's throat simultaneously. But either way, my message is don't give up.

That still won't guarantee that you will make it to the finish line with that person, but as long as you know you gave your best it will make the parting easier over time and make you a better partner for the next person that comes along.


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## bigmac (Jan 10, 2015)

Tad said:


> Mac--would you care to moderate your wording, in deference to anyone who is not in this situation but who thinks that they have a mighty strong relationship? Or, heck, whose parents or grandparents didn't have this sort of relationship but lived a love story that could make you weep?
> 
> ...



You're absolutely correct that many people from older (or past generations) had relationships were at least one person didn't have salaried work. However, many of these couples worked their butts off.

While I was born in New York City I grew up on a farm in Northern Alberta in an area that wasn't fully settled until after WWII. Most of our neighbors were Ukrainian (apparently Alberta looks a lot like Ukraine). My mom's best friend was a lady who -- with her husband -- had homesteaded the farm directly east of ours. They were born in Ukraine but their families had managed to escape before Stalin totally locked the place down. As a young couple they homesteaded land about 70 miles north of Edmonton. They cleared their land together. They built their house together. For over 40 years they worked side-by-side and built a prosperous farm (although they still lived in the original home they built and drove a very plain 15 year old pick-up). They had three daughters and bought each one a house outside Edmonton when they got married (paid cash). This couple actually loved each other (they were sightly more outwardly affectionate than most old farm couples) but they were also an economic team with each person pulling their weight. Its my opinion that their economic relationship strengthened their marriage.

Unfortunately there are ever fewer avenues outside of salaried work for young couples to pursue. More and more two salaries are need to fund a comfortable life. A stable economic situation is a prerequisite for a stable marriage. Thus the need for both parties to work. Perhaps more importantly when money is tight recriminations fly -- if one or both parties are not pulling their weight the chances of a relationship succeeding are slim.

Thus young people who want a long-term stable relationship are well advised to: (1) get an education/skill/trade/career so they can hold up their end, and (2) hook-up with someone who'll do the same.


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## bigmac (Jan 10, 2015)

LeoGibson said:


> ... Anyone got the name of a good divorce lawyer?
> 
> ...



Sorry don't do family law -- that's for masochists only!

Also, I need to acknowledge that there are ways to earn a good living without going to college. Having a good trade works. However, these also require years of training (we really need to push apprenticeships more).

Regardless of what kind of training a young person pursues its imperative they do something to ensure their economic viability. People who are not economically are just not marriage material. Historically this used to apply only to men and men could be economically viable by just getting a job at the local factory, steel mill, refinery ... . Those days are over. Today, regardless of gender, if you're not economically viable your chances of founding and sustaining a long-term relationship plummet. That's just a cold hard fact.


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## lucca23v2 (Jan 10, 2015)

Bigmac -- what exactly does "pulling your equal weight" in the marriage mean to you? 

It is not all about money. There are couples where one person stays home and takes care of the kids and manages the home and everything that goes with that. (ie, shopping, laundry, cleaning, running around with the kids, etc.)
That has as much value as bringing in money into the household. They may not be bringing in money, but they are pulling their weight in the marriage/partnership.


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## bigmac (Jan 10, 2015)

lucca23v2 said:


> Bigmac -- what exactly does "pulling your equal weight" in the marriage mean to you?
> 
> It is not all about money. There are couples where one person stays home and takes care of the kids and manages the home and everything that goes with that. (ie, shopping, laundry, cleaning, running around with the kids, etc.)
> That has as much value as bringing in money into the household. They may not be bringing in money, but they are pulling their weight in the marriage/partnership.



In most cases there won't even be a home unless both parties work. Taking care of a modern home is not a full-time job (not even close). As far as kids go the best thing parents can do (especially female parents of their daughters) is to model being a self-supporting person with their our career.

This is actually the position of many feminists. A position I wholeheartedly support. A smart partner with their own job and outside interests is someone who's likely to be an interesting person. A person who voluntarily decides to spend all day obsessing over domestic tasks not so much.


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## lucca23v2 (Jan 10, 2015)

bigmac said:


> In most cases there won't even be a home unless both parties work. Taking care of a modern home is not a full-time job (not even close). As far as kids go the best thing parents can do (especially female parents of their daughters) is to model being a self-supporting person with their our career.
> 
> This is actually the position of many feminists. A position I wholeheartedly support. A smart partner with their own job and outside interests is someone who's likely to be an interesting person. A person who voluntarily decides to spend all day obsessing over domestic tasks not so much.



Wow.. really? So the only one that has worth is the parent that goes out to work? So the parent at home tending to the families need means nothing? has no value? Just wow.. how can someone so educated be so obtuse?

A parent at home can encourage a female child to go out and be independent just as much as the parent that is working. 

FYI.. cleaning and cooking are jobs last I checked there are maids.. and house cleaning business and lets not forget chefs... just because the person is doing it within the context of being married does not make it any less of a job.. smh..

*All that being said.. getting back to the main point of the thread*.... You can help someone as much as they want to be helped. My advice is to find a BHM(s) that are confident in themselves. There are many out there. Good luck OP


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