# It Gets Better, Unless Youre Fat



## wrestlingguy (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't see many articles on what BHMs go through, so I thought I'd share this with you.







*When you first come out, gay men are eager to let you know that youre not alone, and that you have a seat at the table. Unless, of course, youre also fat, in which case, no, you cant sit with us. 

By Louis Peitzman - BuzzFeed Staff 

I never had to come out as fat.

When you grow up overweight, everyone notices  not just your classmates, who are too young to have mastered the art of tact, but also friends parents and teachers. I knew I was fat because people told me I was fat, either directly (a slap to the stomach and an unkind word) or in subtler ways (having a teacher rifle through my lunch box and comment on the contents). I felt shame over my size long before I had any concept of my sexuality, and years after coming out as gay, I still feel anxious identifying as fat.

As an openly gay writer, one of the questions Im asked most often is, Were you bullied growing up? And the answer is yes, but its never the answer theyre looking for. In many ways I was lucky to have come of age in a liberal enclave where my sexuality was accepted if not embraced. Oh, sure, Ive had the word ****** hurled at me  and the sad truth is, Id be shocked if a gay man hadnt  but it was always secondary. The real source of my bullying was the extra weight Ive carried since childhood. I can count on one hand the number of times Ive been called a ****** to my face, but I couldnt tell you how often someone has made a dig about my weight.

Outside of anonymous internet comments, the gay slurs have stopped almost entirely. Remarks about my weight, however, are a depressing constant.

I share this not for sympathy but for context. Its an answer to the people who seem surprised when I explain that no, I was never really bullied for being gay, but instead got made fun of for being fat on a daily basis. They are open-minded progressives, and I appreciate their fixation on the way LGBT people are treated; obviously, I share their concern. But the treatment of overweight people is, for the most part, lost on them. And thats largely because so many of my allies and fellow gay men championing equality  compassionate, forward-thinking individuals  are the same people delicately suggesting I lose some weight.

What it comes down to is good intentions. Call someone a gay slur and youre homophobic. Use a racial slur and youre a racist. But when you wonder out loud why I cant just lose some weight, youre looking out for me. At least, thats the perception. The hurtful degradation becomes socially sanctioned, because being fat is considered to be innately wrong. The common understanding is that fatness is unhealthy and unnatural and always the fat persons fault, despite the fact that science does not agree with these assessments. And suddenly, otherwise good people  those who are proud to not have a bigoted bone in their bodies  feel no shame in condemning us fatties. Its not bigotry if we deserve it.

Being fat is never easy, but in the spirit of National Coming Out Week, Im offering this potentially controversial perspective: As hard as it is to be gay, being fat and gay makes everything so much worse.

I was once told that coming out as a gay man was like being welcomed into the best club in the world. It was maybe an overstatement, but I understand the sentiment: When you first come out, youre automatically granted inclusion  if not by friends and family, then by the gay community as a whole. They get it. They get you. And theyre eager to let you know that youre not alone, and that you have a seat at the table. Unless, of course, youre also fat, in which case, no, you cant sit with us.

Certainly this isnt true of all gay men: Im speaking in generalities based on what I have experienced. There are, of course, gay men who dont obsess over their weight or the weight of potential sexual partners. There are also those for whom going to the gym is not an activity to build ones days around. But the stereotype of the gay obsession with body image and a six-pack is not unfounded. There is a widely held understanding that being gay means maintaining a certain standard of physical beauty, with very little room for deviation from the norm.

I cant speak for all gay men, but I can tell you what I have faced as an overweight gay man. I can tell you that when I lost 15 pounds due to depression, a well-meaning older gay man told me I had done the right thing, because my only other option would have been to gain weight and become a bear. I can tell you that one person I tried to date helpfully offered, You could be really attractive if you lost some weight. And I can tell you that I deleted Grindr after one night when a stranger messaged me to let me know that if I shed a few pounds I might actually be cute.

It would be comforting to dismiss these as isolated incidents, but based on conversations with other gay men like me, I dont think theyre all that unusual. The truth is, the gay community isnt interested in embracing overweight people because were a blemish on the image of perfection. And much in the same way progressives as a whole can get away with ignoring anti-fat bigotry, gay men never bother examining the way they treat their overweight brothers. Ignore us or relegate us to the butt of hackneyed jokes: We just dont matter. It doesnt get better for us.

From the beginning, the It Gets Better campaign has been fairly criticized for its limited scope: Yes, it does get better, provided youre an attractive, able-bodied white cisman. I want to be clear  it has gotten better for me since I came out. I dont for a minute regret being an openly gay man, and I consider my life now to be a drastic improvement over life in the closet. At the same time, I cant help but grimace at the it gets better trope for the way it glosses over so many problems within the gay community. Just because it gets marginally better doesnt mean it ever gets good enough.

The internalized shame I feel about my weight is largely a credit to society, where all fat people are treated like second-class citizens. But adulthood should be about repairing those wounds and learning to love myself as I am. Instead, Im surrounded by people who, despite having faced the same oppression I have as gay men, largely refuse to embrace me at my current size. The end result is that Ive been out for nearly a decade, and I still feel like an outcast within the gay community. I wish I had faith in that getting better any time soon.*

Link to original article


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## dblbellybhm (Oct 14, 2013)

Thank you for sharing that. I am not a gay man but I am fat and his perspective is right on. It is at once an inspiring piece and a disturbing one.


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## waldo (Oct 14, 2013)

dblbellybhm said:


> Thank you for sharing that. I am not a gay man but I am fat and his perspective is right on. It is at once an inspiring piece and a disturbing one.



I don't see anything in there that is inspiring at all. What strikes me about this is the reminder of the extreme hypocrisy of many of these so-called 'progressives' who believe they have the right to pick and choose what is worthy of their tolerance and what is deserving of their scorn. Because of course they are so extremely intelligent that they just KNOW BEYOND DOUBT what is right.

In a more general sense, this again drives home the point that bigotry against fat people is the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice:really sad:


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## superodalisque (Oct 14, 2013)

waldo said:


> I don't see anything in there that is inspiring at all. What strikes me about this is the reminder of the extreme hypocrisy of many of these so-called 'progressives' who believe they have the right to pick and choose what is worthy of their tolerance and what is deserving of their scorn. Because of course they are so extremely intelligent that they just KNOW BEYOND DOUBT what is right.
> 
> In a more general sense, this again drives home the point that bigotry against fat people is the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice:really sad:



yes even fat groups do the same. a lot exclude fat men altogether or when they do speak of their issues they aren't validated at all. unless absolutely everybody is included it corrupts the whole idea of acceptance of any kind.

i also wonder if this is different among gay men and lesbians. is it a tendency for men and/or women of any sexual persuasion to have physical preferences that they publically try to thrust upon absolutely everyone who could be a potential sexual partner? why would anyone think everyone must be physically attractive to them? and were do they get the idea that absolutely everyone must be offering themselves up for sexual approval?


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## love handles (Oct 14, 2013)

waldo said:


> In a more general sense, this again drives home the point that bigotry against fat people is the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice:really sad:



I don't agree with this. Other forms of prejudice may be a little more hidden but are still absolutely socially endorsed. An example of this could be the murder and persecution of Trans people In the west. The fact that being gay is illegal (and punishable by death/jail) in some countries. *Have you checked out Russia lately?* The % of black people in America is not properly represented by the media. I could go on. There are many other forms of prejudice which is endorsed by society. No need to play oppression Olympics as there is plenty of injustice to go around.


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## CarlaSixx (Oct 14, 2013)

I have So much I can say to this. I can agree so much with the article. I'm a fat person that falls under the LGBTQ umbrella, and can honestly agree that being fat and LGBTQ is still not part of the It Gets Better scheme. 
But ... Fat is not the last accepted hate. Not at all. I see more hate towards people who fall under the Trans umbrella than hate towards fat people. So to assume fat is the last accepted prejudice is wrong.


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## Emma (Oct 14, 2013)

I honestly don't understand why you are posting this. 

How do you identify with this OP? Are you a gay man who hasn't been accepted because he is fat? Are you trans? Do you ACTUALLY identify with any part of this article apart from being a fat man.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 14, 2013)

Emma said:


> I honestly don't understand why you are posting this.
> 
> How do you identify with this OP? Are you a gay man who hasn't been accepted because he is fat? Are you trans? Do you ACTUALLY identify with any part of this article apart from being a fat man.



Why is any of that important?

I'm not any of those. I blog for fat activism, and I'm active in the fat rights movement. Others may find this blog useful and thought provoking, and by some of the comments, it appears that they do.

This is what it says before you enter this part of the Dimensions forum:

*Main Dimensions Board 
Size/size acceptance issues*

This falls within the realm of this forum. Thanks for playing, though!!


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## Emma (Oct 14, 2013)

wrestlingguy said:


> Why is any of that important?
> 
> I'm not any of those. I blog for fat activism, and I'm active in the fat rights movement. Others may find this blog useful and thought provoking, and by some of the comments, it appears that they do.
> 
> ...



You are right. It is me that is in the wrong. I hope you will accept my apology and please will you link me to your blog so I can keep up with what you have to say  x


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## waldo (Oct 14, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> yes even fat groups do the same. a lot exclude fat men altogether or when they do speak of their issues they aren't validated at all. unless absolutely everybody is included it corrupts the whole idea of acceptance of any kind.
> 
> i also wonder if this is different among gay men and lesbians. is it a tendency for men and/or women of any sexual persuasion to have physical preferences that they publically try to thrust upon absolutely everyone who could be a potential sexual partner? why would anyone think everyone must be physically attractive to them? and were do they get the idea that absolutely everyone must be offering themselves up for sexual approval?



Curiously, while gay men are typically very thin conscious (other than the small subpopulation of chubby-chasers/bears), lesbians tend to be the opposite in that several studies have found they prefer a fuller figure:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3813178?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102753199361

http://spr.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/05/26/0265407513489472.abstract




love handles said:


> I don't agree with this. Other forms of prejudice may be a little more hidden but are still absolutely socially endorsed. An example of this could be the murder and persecution of Trans people In the west. The fact that being gay is illegal (and punishable by death/jail) in some countries. *Have you checked out Russia lately?* The % of black people in America is not properly represented by the media. I could go on. There are many other forms of prejudice which is endorsed by society. No need to play oppression Olympics as there is plenty of injustice to go around.



I think you are correct in some ways. And As Carlasixx also mentioned, transsexuals are maybe the least accepted group in our Western society, other than maybe feeders and polygamists

But as you said yourself, many of these other forms of discrimination (such as racial) are more hidden. The difference with anti-fat discrimination is the perception that it is a choice to be fat and as the author stated:

" The hurtful degradation becomes socially sanctioned, because being fat is considered to be innately wrong. The common understanding is that fatness is unhealthy and unnatural and always the fat person’s fault, despite the fact that science does not agree with these assessments. And suddenly, otherwise good people — those who are proud to not have a bigoted bone in their bodies — feel no shame in condemning us fatties. It’s not bigotry if we deserve it."

And this condemnation likely will be even worse for a fat person who does not profess to want desperately to be thin or says they prefer being fat. And what of the person who professes a 'preference' for a fat partner? One can certainly imagine there is little regard for us amongst this 'enlightened' progressive crowd to which the author refers.


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## love handles (Oct 15, 2013)

In many countries being gay is seen as being wrong Waldo. I mean people are literally executed for being gay. If that is not out and out terrifying prejudice then I don't know what is. 
Black people in America are profiled and murdered because of prejudice and scaremongering. That fact is quite clear to those who open their eyes. 
Again, many trans people have lost their lives for being who they are. 
Frankly I think the term 'Acceptable prejudice' is an oxymoron as prejudice is never acceptable. I sort of wish people would stop saying it!!


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## waldo (Oct 15, 2013)

love handles said:


> In many countries being gay is seen as being wrong Waldo. I mean people are literally executed for being gay. If that is not out and out terrifying prejudice then I don't know what is.
> Black people in America are profiled and murdered because of prejudice and scaremongering. That fact is quite clear to those who open their eyes.
> Again, many trans people have lost their lives for being who they are.
> Frankly I think the term 'Acceptable prejudice' is an oxymoron as prejudice is never acceptable. I sort of wish people would stop saying it!!



Yeah but we are not really talking about other countries, we are talking primarily about what happens in the USA. Because that is the country in which the author of the article that is the topic of the thread lives, as well as where most of the membership of this forum lives.

And being gay is also seen as being wrong by MANY MANY individuals and groups (like religious ones) in the USA too. But there are strong institutional safeguards for mitigating anti-homosexual bias. For anti-fat bias? not nearly so much.

You could also point out that women in Saudi Arabia who report being raped are whipped. 

Yeah we know there is all kinds of injustice in the world, but the form of discrimination of primary interest here at Dimensions is anti-fat bias in the USA (and other similar 'wealthy' countries like UK, Canada, Australia, EU).


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## Paquito (Oct 15, 2013)

I really don't understand the need to call size discrimination "the last safe prejudice." Because a.) it's really, _really_ not and b.) it doesn't need to be the only or "biggest" prejudice out there in order for it to be a problem. We are surrounded by sizism. And racism, sexism, queerphobia, classism, ableism, etc. These are all functioning in our society and we can address all of them. We are affected by them differently, but it's not like we have to combat discrimination one at a time. I've faced just as much negativity for being queer and a POC as I have for being fat.

And for the record, the article is spot-on. Queer fatties pretty much have to find their niche market - like the bear community - to get any kind of positive attention (and those communities can be problematic too).


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## Sweet Tooth (Oct 15, 2013)

I've never quite understood the need to battle over the ranking of hate that still exists in this world, as if someone's pain is less *valid* because it's less.

There are a lot of hateful people out there, and sadly some who make a point about being very open and accepting while actively hating and judging. I'm sure for all of us, there's a line of acceptable behaviors, but fat generally doesn't interfere with someone else's right to life, liberty, etc. Happiness, maybe, if you look at other humans as products to be consumed and fat people just mean less that appeals to your palate.

Back in college, I found acceptance for myself from a ragtag bunch of men in the gay community. I would say that the community was pretty splintered in a lot of ways, but I happened to be the straight friend who was starting to accept her own size at the time and understood the pain of being ignored or dismissed or even disliked purely over a weight or looks issue. I saw a lot of men who thought they finally found a safe place to be themselves but then were judged for being who they were because they were larger rather than for being gay. I never quite understood a caste system among the "outcasts", particularly in a time when gay men were still fighting so many stigmas surrounding AIDS and general societal acceptance.


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## waldo (Oct 16, 2013)

Paquito said:


> I really don't understand the need to call size discrimination "the last safe prejudice." Because a.) it's really, _really_ not and b.) it doesn't need to be the only or "biggest" prejudice out there in order for it to be a problem. We are surrounded by sizism. And racism, sexism, queerphobia, classism, ableism, etc. These are all functioning in our society and we can address all of them. We are affected by them differently, but it's not like we have to combat discrimination one at a time. I've faced just as much negativity for being queer and a POC as I have for being fat.
> 
> And for the record, the article is spot-on. Queer fatties pretty much have to find their niche market - like the bear community - to get any kind of positive attention (and those communities can be problematic too).



It is interesting that you feel you faced as much discrimination for being 'queer' as for being fat while someone else feels they were significantly more discriminated against for being fat. I suppose it may depend on your location and the type of people in your circle of acquaintance. Also, don't forget that regardless of sexual orientation, women are in general much more judged by society for their appearance than men.



Sweet Tooth said:


> I've never quite understood the need to battle over the ranking of hate that still exists in this world, as if someone's pain is less *valid* because it's less.
> 
> There are a lot of hateful people out there, and sadly some who make a point about being very open and accepting while actively hating and judging. I'm sure for all of us, there's a line of acceptable behaviors, but fat generally doesn't interfere with someone else's right to life, liberty, etc. Happiness, maybe, if you look at other humans as products to be consumed and fat people just mean less that appeals to your palate.
> 
> Back in college, I found acceptance for myself from a ragtag bunch of men in the gay community. I would say that the community was pretty splintered in a lot of ways, but I happened to be the straight friend who was starting to accept her own size at the time and understood the pain of being ignored or dismissed or even disliked purely over a weight or looks issue. I saw a lot of men who thought they finally found a safe place to be themselves but then were judged for being who they were because they were larger rather than for being gay. I never quite understood a caste system among the "outcasts", particularly in a time when gay men were still fighting so many stigmas surrounding AIDS and general societal acceptance.



Yeah my wife also was a straight fat girl who hung around with gay guys a lot in her younger days. It seems a common phenomenon. It seems that discriminated against people should spend more time working together for their common good than arguing over which of them is more repressed by society at large.


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## Paquito (Oct 16, 2013)

Oh yeah, my experience as a man is certainly different from the experiences of women when it comes to size discrimination. Having male privilege does soften the blow.


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## love handles (Oct 16, 2013)

waldo said:


> Yeah but we are not really talking about other countries, we are talking primarily about what happens in the USA. Because that is the country in which the author of the article that is the topic of the thread lives, as well as where most of the membership of this forum lives.
> 
> And being gay is also seen as being wrong by MANY MANY individuals and groups (like religious ones) in the USA too. But there are strong institutional safeguards for mitigating anti-homosexual bias. For anti-fat bias? not nearly so much.
> 
> ...



I think it is always good to look at social trends out with the USA regardless of what one American's view is. 
Also, yes there are many laws which you would think would safe guard people who belong to minority groups. Unfortunately some people like to take the law into their own hands and homophobia is utterly rife in the USA. Prejudice often is institutionalised and as you have seen from your news is often above the law so that innocent civilians not only are not safe from gun toting maniacs, the same gun toting maniacs are allowed to commit their crimes and are set free. 
I think you need to check your many privileges: White, male, heterosexual, American. *I am guessing*


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## MadLordOfMilk (Oct 16, 2013)

This was a really interesting piece. Thanks for posting it! It's a perspective I haven't seen before.


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## waldo (Oct 16, 2013)

love handles said:


> I think it is always good to look at social trends out with the USA regardless of what one American's view is.
> Also, yes there are many laws which you would think would safe guard people who belong to minority groups. Unfortunately some people like to take the law into their own hands and homophobia is utterly rife in the USA. Prejudice often is institutionalised and as you have seen from your news is often above the law so that innocent civilians not only are not safe from gun toting maniacs, the same gun toting maniacs are allowed to commit their crimes and are set free.
> I think you need to check your many privileges: White, male, heterosexual, American. *I am guessing*



One over-publicized case of questionable use of deadly force does not an epidemic make. 

As far as your last statement about how I should "check your many privileges":

This is the kind of insensitive, glib statement that contributes nothing to the discussion and is pretty much reverse discrimination. So because I am a heterosexual white male I have never suffered injustice/discrimination? You are aware that FAs are not well thought of by society right, as in we are considered a bunch of weird fetishists. Get over yourself


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 16, 2013)

Sweet Tooth said:


> I've never quite understood the need to battle over the ranking of hate that still exists in this world, as if someone's pain is less *valid* because it's less.
> 
> There are a lot of hateful people out there, and sadly some who make a point about being very open and accepting while actively hating and judging. I'm sure for all of us, there's a line of acceptable behaviors, but fat generally doesn't interfere with someone else's right to life, liberty, etc. Happiness, maybe, if you look at other humans as products to be consumed and fat people just mean less that appeals to your palate.
> 
> Back in college, I found acceptance for myself from a ragtag bunch of men in the gay community. I would say that the community was pretty splintered in a lot of ways, but I happened to be the straight friend who was starting to accept her own size at the time and understood the pain of being ignored or dismissed or even disliked purely over a weight or looks issue. I saw a lot of men who thought they finally found a safe place to be themselves but then were judged for being who they were because they were larger rather than for being gay. I never quite understood a caste system among the "outcasts", particularly in a time when gay men were still fighting so many stigmas surrounding AIDS and general societal acceptance.



I believe these kinds of arguments come from what can seem like an attempt to water down what another person is going through. If a person is talking about systemic abuse and persecution and another feels they can address this concern because some people were mean to them at the place they used to work it might incite someone to tell them to stand down. While their feelings and experiences may have been powerful for them their level of understanding may still miss the point. I've had to be dressed down for this a time or two.


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## Sweet Tooth (Oct 16, 2013)

LillyBBBW said:


> I believe these kinds of arguments come from what can seem like an attempt to water down what another person is going through. If a person is talking about systemic abuse and persecution and another feels they can address this concern because some people were mean to them at the place they used to work it might incite someone to tell them to stand down. While their feelings and experiences may have been powerful for them their level of understanding may still miss the point. I've had to be dressed down for this a time or two.



I can understand the desire to try to share our experiences and find common ground, even if we have to say, "My experience was only a fraction of what you're going through and I know how hard that was. I can only imagine how much more difficult this is for you, and I'm sorry you're going through that." And there will always be the martyr types who have to show you how much worse life is for them no matter what you've experienced - definitely watering down types.

There's part of me that also says we never truly know what a person has been through. Some people don't show their battle scars readily. Some are like the little kid with an tiny scratch showing everyone and asking for Band-Aids. [Then again, paper cuts look small but can hurt like a bitch. ]

I'm not sure if it's possible, deep down, to give grace for someone's clueless attempts at empathy. I want to roll my eyes. But then I'm probably oblivious to the times I do this to people and I'm the beneficiary of their grace towards me. And yet I think, too, how much better it is when we don't have to battle each other over deeply personal pains. I guess I just hope that the sensitivity to that pain might make us less clueless and more tender towards those who face that systemic hurt to the point where we get some righteous indignation out of that empathy.


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## Fatfanplus (Oct 17, 2013)

wrestlingguy said:


> I don't see many articles on what BHMs go through, so I thought I'd share this with you.



As a gay man who also happens to be a gainer (and 450 lbs) I can say that what the article says it true. However, I would hope that anyone who is fat and gay will eventually come to the conclusion that they should *NOT* be looking for inclusion from *ANYONE* who cannot accept them as they are.
One of the gay communities worst aspects is it's way of turning it's nose at anyone who is not striving to appear thin and young.
It's pathetic IMHO. 
If someone does not want to associate with me because of my size, then who needs them. Not me.
I like being fat, and I like fat guys. It's a huge part of what makes me "me" and it turns me on sexually. 
I met someone 2 years ago who is also a gainer and we've been together ever since. I consider myself very lucky!

We do a podcast where we interview gainers.
Go to the GLBT section on Dimensions and look for "The Gaining Life"


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 17, 2013)

Sweet Tooth said:


> I can understand the desire to try to share our experiences and find common ground, even if we have to say, "My experience was only a fraction of what you're going through and I know how hard that was. I can only imagine how much more difficult this is for you, and I'm sorry you're going through that." And there will always be the martyr types who have to show you how much worse life is for them no matter what you've experienced - definitely watering down types.
> 
> There's part of me that also says we never truly know what a person has been through. Some people don't show their battle scars readily. Some are like the little kid with an tiny scratch showing everyone and asking for Band-Aids. [Then again, paper cuts look small but can hurt like a bitch. ]
> 
> I'm not sure if it's possible, deep down, to give grace for someone's clueless attempts at empathy. I want to roll my eyes. But then I'm probably oblivious to the times I do this to people and I'm the beneficiary of their grace towards me. And yet I think, too, how much better it is when we don't have to battle each other over deeply personal pains. I guess I just hope that the sensitivity to that pain might make us less clueless and more tender towards those who face that systemic hurt to the point where we get some righteous indignation out of that empathy.



I recall reading an explanation in an animated depiction of depression at Hyperbole and a Half that really resonated with me. One particulare line stated, "The syrupy, over-simplified optimism started to feel almost offensive." It might be hard to reach out to someone when things are awful. I mean REALLY really awful. You've got a raw person there and you wouldn't want to try to hug someone with broken bones or open wounds. A broken person isn't there to comfort or reassure you if you are really wanting be a help. There are times I have to stand there, let them shout, Let them cuss, listen, etc. I think what's most upsetting is when something awful is happening to someone and a person comes in and tries to make it about them, and that can happen both ways when a person chimes in, "Oh you think YOU'VE got at bad, dig what happened to ME." We all have our own issues. Not sure if I'm wrapping this up well but I notice a lot of things like this going on when people are coming out claiming to be allies and supporters.


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## SprocketRocket (Oct 17, 2013)

Depression sucks, no way around it.


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## SprocketRocket (Oct 17, 2013)

And for those depressed: It is as the Cymbalta commercial. "Who does depression hurt? Everyone. Where does depression hurt? Everywhere."

Me? I have been depressed for QUITE awhile. Sometimes, the reminders get to be too much. I don't back down, I don't stop doing the things I love, but sometimes, when the depression overwhelms, I do. And then insets the negativity. When you lash out at everyone and everything. Friends. And family. And it doesn't stop! Not until there is some kind of change in the brainwaves, where you tell yourself something to get you through. Maybe a drug, maybe a feeling that is a drug, something.

As to the gay and fat argument as to how much worse it makes everything, it probably absolutely does, that there are additional things to be ridiculed and made to be depressed about. We all have our demons.. Some of us become reclusive and don't go out much.. some of us get stronger. it is all individual, and then those that don't rise above are called weak.. The vicious cycle of persecution never stops.


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## superodalisque (Oct 17, 2013)

Emma said:


> I honestly don't understand why you are posting this.
> 
> How do you identify with this OP? Are you a gay man who hasn't been accepted because he is fat? Are you trans? Do you ACTUALLY identify with any part of this article apart from being a fat man.



i think as human beings we should all be able to identify with the need to be accepted--if not then acceptance might not really be for us. and, we certainly should not be asking for something we can't give.


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## love handles (Oct 18, 2013)

waldo said:


> As far as your last statement about how I should "check your many privileges":
> 
> This is the kind of insensitive, glib statement that contributes nothing to the discussion and is pretty much reverse discrimination. So because I am a heterosexual white male I have never suffered injustice/discrimination? You are aware that FAs are not well thought of by society right, as in we are considered a bunch of weird fetishists. Get over yourself



Are you telling me to 'get over myself and that I am adding nothing to the discussion' because I am a gay woman'? I can't know. 

I have loads of friends who date fat women and no one thinks they are weird or fetishists. People that go on and on about liking fat people I might think are weird though. 

By your 'so you think 'I' have never suffered injustice/discrimination' comment I realise you don't understand the concept of privilege. Maybe you should learn about it before trying to discuss it.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 18, 2013)

The main reason I put the post on this forum was to show that we still have a long way to go, since acceptance is still a struggle for people of all genders, sexual orientation, and socio/economic groups.

I hope we can still view this as a universal problem, and not one just limited to one of those above mentioned groups, or that one suffers more than others.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 18, 2013)

waldo said:


> One over-publicized case of questionable use of deadly force does not an epidemic make.
> 
> As far as your last statement about how I should "check your many privileges":
> 
> This is the kind of insensitive, glib statement that contributes nothing to the discussion and is pretty much reverse discrimination. So because I am a heterosexual white male I have never suffered injustice/discrimination? You are aware that FAs are not well thought of by society right, as in we are considered a bunch of weird fetishists. Get over yourself



Waldo, the reason she said what she said is because your affirmations are pretty much the cliche joke of what a priviledged white heterosexual male would say in any discussion about oppression. Then when someone tries to point it out he claims persecution and use phrases like "reverse racism/discrimination" and now oppressed people must gather 'round him in a circle and sing him a happy song. Don't do this man, people are trying to tell you something that they know and live - not what they saw on tv or read in a book written by another authoritative white heterosexual male with a black girlfriend.


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## waldo (Oct 18, 2013)

love handles said:


> Are you telling me to 'get over myself and that I am adding nothing to the discussion' because I am a gay woman'? I can't know.
> 
> I have loads of friends who date fat women and no one thinks they are weird or fetishists. People that go on and on about liking fat people I might think are weird though.
> 
> By your 'so you think 'I' have never suffered injustice/discrimination' comment I realise you don't understand the concept of privilege. Maybe you should learn about it before trying to discuss it.



Firstly, I will point out that you were the one who laid down the gauntlet to me with your "go check your many privileges" comment. It seems this was intended to, not so subtly, tell me I haven't experienced discrimination / oppression so I have nothing substantive to contribute. And you even admitted to "guessing" about my demographic, so you are there making assumptions and judgements about people based on what: your biases. Yes THAT is what adds nothing to the discussion except rancor. If you want to have a respectful discussion where everyone's opinion is valued then by all means, but you clearly don't value everyone's opinion.

Yes I know what privileges means but you are greatly overestimating the value of these so-called privileges. Just because a handful of heterosexual white males still run the world, doesn't mean we are all so well off. 

And your refusal to acknowledge the judgement of FAs by society, again shows a bias and really lack of empathy which is very common here. If being an FA was so accepted by society, why are there so many "closet FAs" who marry thin women for appearances and screw around with fat women on the sly??? Name me any prominent person who is an admitted FA. That's right there are none, because being an FA DOES impede your socio-economic status. And it doesn't matter if you admit to being an FA, once you mate with a woman who is significantly above societal norms, you are going to be labelled by the establishment as a weirdo for liking that or a loser for not being able to do any better.

You may have friends that date fat women and maybe you THINK nobody judges them for it, but you are looking at it from your and your friends' non-establishment perspective. The establishment is solidly against fat and therefore by definition is solidly against people attracted to a fat body. You can't have one without the other.





wrestlingguy said:


> The main reason I put the post on this forum was to show that we still have a long way to go, since acceptance is still a struggle for people of all genders, sexual orientation, and socio/economic groups.
> 
> I hope we can still view this as a universal problem, and not one just limited to one of those above mentioned groups, or that one suffers more than others.




Exactly, the point was that even in a so-called "liberal enclave" where the people pride themselves on being tolerant, there is a strong anti-fat bias. The HYPOCRISY is the whole point here. And now we are seeing it pop up on this thread with people being questioned about whether they have a legitimate right to comment since they apparently don't know what is like to really be oppressed.

The same has been happening in the 'fat community' all along: thin FAs and smaller fat people being told by the fatter fat people that they don't know about being really oppressed and therefore don't really belong. This is the type of in-fighting that has led to fragmentation and essentially zero progress in fat acceptance for many years and probably backsliding of the cause if anything. 



LillyBBBW said:


> Waldo, the reason she said what she said is because your affirmations are pretty much the cliche joke of what a priviledged white heterosexual male would say in any discussion about oppression. Then when someone tries to point it out he claims persecution and use phrases like "reverse racism/discrimination" and now oppressed people must gather 'round him in a circle and sing him a happy song. Don't do this man, people are trying to tell you something that they know and live - not what they saw on tv or read in a book written by another authoritative white heterosexual male with a black girlfriend.



The discussion wasn't even about oppression of gay and visible minorities until she tried to make it about that. The point is the ongoing anti-fat bias even among otherwise tolerant people.

And you can sit on your judgmental pedestal and joke about reverse-discrimination all you want but it does exist. The US federal government has Affirmative Action policy on employment that extends to any and all companies which it does business with. This includes most of the Fortune 500 and many smaller ones as well. In a historically bad job market, this does have real consequences for those who don't help the employer meet its Affirmative Action quotas. 

As far as "people are trying to tell you something that they know and live", all I saw was a lot of spouting off about deranged guys with guns murdering innocents and getting away with it and gays being murdered. I didn't see any of her personal experiences being conveyed although the bitterness and anger and resulting lack of objectivity is clearly palpable.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 18, 2013)

No one is arguing with you about that point waldo because on that particular point we all agree so there is no argument necessary there. What has provoked people to speak out is because you made some remarks outside of that point that were questionable. You say derranged guys with guns murdering innocents as if it were a joke. It's something people of color live with every day as well as the stop and frisk policies, profiling, job discrimination, social biases, etc. It's not something we 'bring in' to a conversation just to say Hey Look At Me. It's part of what makes us and is not made up in order to discriminate against you. Therefore when you can talk about one dead kid in the media as if you've just seen the season ender of Going Bad it clearly identifies you as someone far removed from the reality of oppression who only knows the subject via media influence. [white] By telling our stories it all starts to come out. We're not supposed to talk about these things because when we do we get accused of reverse discrimination which further asserts the idea that you don't actually understand what systemic discrimination is or how it works. You're not listening.

ETA: I am a straight cis woman. I have not specifically spoken in relation to homosexuality or gender issues because I feel I have no right occupying that space.


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## CarlaSixx (Oct 18, 2013)

If you think gay hate is not rampant in the US and Canada, and that laws protect you... think again!!

I have recently been in a very dangerous altercation with some gay friends of mine... where a straight man caused a physical fight and uttered death threats (among other types of threats) towards the gay men in my circle. The straight man hit one of my friends first. To which my friend defended himself, and his friends who were being harassed and threatened as well. 

When the cops came in and everything was getting handled, who do you think was blamed? Not the straight man. He was getting away with it all. Even though the bar bouncers were even calling it a hate crime. Cops didn't care. They were pressing charges on my gay friend and wanted him to do jail time for hitting the straight guy back IN SELF DEFENSE. All because the straight guy had crutches. There was "no way he could cause any harm". Umm... Dude... he _whacked my friend across the head with those fucking crutches!!_

Oh... shall I mention that all my gay friends were varying degrees of fat? That has most definitely been an issue for them. And something the straight guys were taunting them with. 

Hate is hate. Wherever the source may be.


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## love handles (Oct 18, 2013)

waldo said:


> Firstly, I will point out that you were the one who laid down the gauntlet to me with your "go check your many privileges" comment. It seems this was intended to, not so subtly, tell me I haven't experienced discrimination / oppression so I have nothing substantive to contribute. ......................................................
> 
> Yes I know what privileges means but you are greatly overestimating the value of these so-called privileges. Just because a handful of heterosexual white males still run the world, doesn't mean we are all so well off.
> 
> And your refusal to acknowledge the judgement of FAs by society, again shows a bias and really lack of empathy which is very common here. If being an FA was so accepted by society, why are there so many "closet FAs" who marry thin women for appearances and screw around with fat women on the sly???



Firstly I don't have a lack of empathy because I myself am an 'FA' though I refuse to be defined as such because the term is objectifying. *I like to do more than admire 'fat'*

Secondly, really no I wasn't throwing down any gauntlet, I was in fact offering you a hand. When someone asks you to check your privileges it is usually because they want you to think about the way in which you may be being perceived in the world (and so the way you perceive the world) differs from others. It is never an 'accusation' that the person who needs to check their privileges hasn't gone through any hardship in their life. It is not an accusation of racism, sexism... either.

About hmm 8 or so years ago I had an argument with a good friend of mine. She is black and said I should 'check my white privilege'. I have to admit at first I felt enraged. I was thinking "I am queer, I am a woman, I am of differing ethnicity and culture to what you would class as 'white'" What the hell is she talking about?! Once the dust settled in my head and I thought about what she had said I realised she was not saying I had not suffered and she wasn't saying I was racist she was saying that because I look white this offers me many privileges in society: I don't need to worry and watch my words in fear that I am somehow representing my whole 'race'. I can go out into the world and be fairly sure that I wont be treated differently because of my colour. If I am angry or have a fight with someone I can be sure they wont think 'That must be a white people thing'. (The list of my white privilege is pretty extensive) 

I could go on. It's not about white heterosexual men running the world. It's about every day things that absolutely affect the way people live. Anyway, I got angry and shook my fists and raged against the fact that my friend thought I had some privileges that made my life somehow easier than her's, but you know it turns out that I totally and absolutely do. I see that dispute as a huge turning point in my learning and personal development. *Which by the way my friend was very kind in educating me about because it was not her job to teach me*. 

I am talking about white privilege here because that was the one I realised I need to check every now and then. In this case I asked you to check your privileges (mainly your heterosexual one) as a favour to you. I wont educate you as you are not a valued friend but I am giving you some respect by asking you think about your own privilege when entering into a discussion with gay people about gay people and what they feel and don't feel when you have never experienced what it is like to be gay. 

You can take this any way you wish. I hope you don't have a knee jerk reaction and take the time to look up some stuff on privilege though.


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## SprocketRocket (Oct 18, 2013)

'Cisgendered' describes an individual whose gender matches with his/her biological sex at birth. It is often contrasted with 'transgender', which denotes the non-alignment of gender identity and biological sex.

The prefix 'cis-' is not an acronym. It is a Latin prefix that denotes 'here' or 'on the same side of', as opposed to 'trans-', which means to go across the boundary (to the other side).


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## SprocketRocket (Oct 18, 2013)

^^ Thank you to the individual who thanked me for defining "cis." I was baffled myself!


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 18, 2013)

Can we all agree that everyone's degree of oppression is framed by their own personal experience?
I also propose that while those degrees of oppression/prejudice may have more personal meaning for one person versus others (which is why not everyone is on the same bandwagon), the fact remains that all fat/gay/trans/religious/political hate is inherently wrong.
Failure to understand that, and put away petty differences for the good of the cause (in this case fat discrimination) will cause the fat acceptance movement to fail, which is what it's been doing for about 15 years now. It's stagnant, because people have found too many reasons to find differences rather than find the reasons we're essentially the same.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 18, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> If you think gay hate is not rampant in the US and Canada, and that laws protect you... think again!!
> 
> I have recently been in a very dangerous altercation with some gay friends of mine... where a straight man caused a physical fight and uttered death threats (among other types of threats) towards the gay men in my circle. The straight man hit one of my friends first. To which my friend defended himself, and his friends who were being harassed and threatened as well.
> 
> ...



Carla that's awful. I'm so sorry that happened to you and your friends. Makes me sick.



wrestlingguy said:


> Can we all agree that everyone's degree of oppression is framed by their own personal experience?
> I also propose that while those degrees of oppression/prejudice may have more personal meaning for one person versus others (which is why not everyone is on the same bandwagon), the fact remains that all fat/gay/trans/religious/political hate is inherently wrong.
> Failure to understand that, and put away petty differences for the good of the cause (in this case fat discrimination) will cause the fat acceptance movement to fail, which is what it's been doing for about 15 years now. It's stagnant, because people have found too many reasons to find differences rather than find the reasons we're essentially the same.



No wrestlingguy. Sadly I don't think we can ever have agreement on this. The reason it will never happen is because this is not an argument that is being made here in the first place. The issue at hand is this:



> bigotry against fat people is the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice



This was stated by waldo and many people here disagreed. Fat is not the last bastion. We gave examples of other types of sactioned biases that happen IN ADDITION TO fat bias. This was a seemingly simple thing but it was not. Every time any other kind of oppression is brought up it BECOMES the oppressed people olympics because other oppressed people feel that their oppression status is in question due to the existence of other types of oppression. The kneejerk response is usually to say, "Yeah but that only happened once on CNN Primetime," or some other marginalizing comment and then it goes there.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 18, 2013)

LillyBBBW said:


> "Can we all agree that everyone's degree of oppression is framed by their own personal experience?
> I also propose that while those degrees of oppression/prejudice may have more personal meaning for one person versus others (which is why not everyone is on the same bandwagon), the fact remains that all fat/gay/trans/religious/political hate is inherently wrong.
> Failure to understand that, and put away petty differences for the good of the cause (in this case fat discrimination) will cause the fat acceptance movement to fail, which is what it's been doing for about 15 years now. It's stagnant, because people have found too many reasons to find differences rather than find the reasons we're essentially the same."
> 
> *No wrestlingguy. Sadly I don't think we can ever have agreement on this. The reason it will never happen is because this is not an argument that is being made here in the first place.*



I'm making the argument because I feel that it does in fact tie in. In fact the point of the original article that I posted here was in fact about how the gay community, a maligned group even now as I write this, is engaging in their own methods of fat shaming and prejudices, thus tearing apart unity within their own ranks, and the analogy I was making was that we (as in a fat community, which I still have yet to see a united one) needs to put down these petty differences long enough to actually work on size acceptance.

Case in point. Last week was Fat Shaming Week. During the course of the week, several Facebook groups that I belong to were lamenting the fact that these misogynists had an internet voice loud enough to have the mainstream media pick up the story.

Having a daughter who works for one of the largest webhosting sites in the world, I spent some time talking with her about terms of use, and that most webhosting sites will remove your site if it contains hate speech. I went back to my groups and requested that they take a few moments from their day to visit the site in question, and send me the link to whatever they found that could be considered hate speech. I could then turn in a huge amount of links to the hosting service, who would likely take the site down for a Terms of Use violation, even if only for a while. It would have been a small victory for the various groups, who could have made a united stand. Instead, I received silence from many, and got criticized by a few others who questioned my personal intentions in doing this, that as a man, I didn't understand what fat women go through.

I happen to agree with that last statement. That said, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be of great use to the fat acceptance movement with the right guidance. And THAT is why I made the argument here, that we continue to spew differences about why things like this won't work, rather than even trying to see if we can have an effect on the world with regard to how they view fat people. 

We can continue to nit pick in the threads (one of the main reasons I left here 3 years ago) about these differences without accomplishing anything, or we can mobilize lots of people to fight for fat/size acceptance, and do the little battles later.

I'm for option #2


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 18, 2013)

wrestlingguy said:


> I'm making the argument because I feel that it does in fact tie in. In fact the point of the original article that I posted here was in fact about how the gay community, a maligned group even now as I write this, is engaging in their own methods of fat shaming and prejudices, thus tearing apart unity within their own ranks, and the analogy I was making was that we (as in a fat community, which I still have yet to see a united one) needs to put down these petty differences long enough to actually work on size acceptance.
> 
> Case in point. Last week was Fat Shaming Week. During the course of the week, several Facebook groups that I belong to were lamenting the fact that these misogynists had an internet voice loud enough to have the mainstream media pick up the story.
> 
> ...



I think that some groups are for mobilizing and other groups are for bla bla bla. I've yet to see much mobilizing here unless you want to go to a party or purchase a bikini. It's funny that the nit picking is what both drew me here and repelled me from this site. The derails are always pointless unles they pertain to you. Then they become so important to make clear to people who seemingly don't understand you.


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## waldo (Oct 19, 2013)

First, I want to thank people for their responses since my last post on this thread. It has not degenerated into what so often has happened on Dimensions in the past: a s**t-slinging fight with multiple people piling on.

Second, I do accept responsibility for INCORRECTLY naming anti-fat bias as "the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice". On further reflection, I realize that is an overused and inaccurate assertion. Yes, gays continue to be discriminated against. Yes, Blacks continue to be discriminated against. Yes, Hispanics continue to be discriminated against. Yes, some white people are more 'privileged' than others. On the latter, I happen to have a little personal experience. As someone who is half Jewish and carries a Jewish surname, I have suffered subtle anti-Semitism. Don't get me wrong, I don't equate this with anti-gay or anti-Black bias, but I am far from being some WASP Ivy League frat boy. 





wrestlingguy said:


> I'm making the argument because I feel that it does in fact tie in. In fact the point of the original article that I posted here was in fact about how the gay community, a maligned group even now as I write this, is engaging in their own methods of fat shaming and prejudices, thus tearing apart unity within their own ranks, and the analogy I was making was that we (as in a fat community, which I still have yet to see a united one) needs to put down these petty differences long enough to actually work on size acceptance.
> 
> Case in point. Last week was Fat Shaming Week. During the course of the week, several Facebook groups that I belong to were lamenting the fact that these misogynists had an internet voice loud enough to have the mainstream media pick up the story.
> 
> ...



Yeah it is a pity that all those with a stake in furthering fat acceptance can't put aside their differences to work for the common good. As I said in my earlier post, it is very simple: if the establishment is anti-fat, they are by definition anti-FA. So our fates are naturally intertwined.

I would like to offer for your consideration an excerpt from an article titled "Divided we fall: reverse discrimination in the size acceptance movement" that appeared in Dimensions print magazine circa April 1994,. This was written by Elisabeth Williams, a NAAFA board member who was instrumental in the formation of the Fat Admirers Special Interest Group within NAAFA, which ultimately led to this very website:

Now remarks by a board member have me troubled. Somehow managing to ignore the fact that the person who founded NAAFA was a thin man, and the person most responsible for bringing professionalism to NAAFA was a thin man, she tells us that thin people are not to be trusted in the trenches, not meant to lead in the fight for size acceptance. Well, Ive known some fat people Id trust my life to and others I wouldnt turn my back on. The same is true of thin people. I didnt realize there could be situations where I couldnt count on trusted people solely because they werent fat enough.

Allies, confidantes, supporters all this talk is divisive and dangerous. There are not that many people qualified to take up effective leadership among us. The burnout rate is tremendous, and the practice of cultivating new leaders is nearly nonexistent. With so few qualified and willing leaders, why exclude our natural partners in the fight?

The notion that thin fat admirers are not on the front lines of the size acceptance battle is, to me, ridiculous. Fat admirers are shamed by relatives, so-called friends and strangers; pay higher insurance rates for their spouses; face career problems when their fat wives dont fit some sophomoric corporate image. Their lives are entwined with ours. Their struggle for their own acceptance and their fight for the rights of those they love make our fight very much their own.

Reverend Williamson, a leader in current black civil rights efforts, has said that when you are in need, you are foolish not to accept help from every outstretched hand. He believes that teaching separatism not only serves no purpose but is harmful to his movement. Distinguishing between allies and supporters  between thin and fat members of our movement also can only be harmful.


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## superodalisque (Oct 20, 2013)

waldo said:


> First, I want to thank people for their responses since my last post on this thread. It has not degenerated into what so often has happened on Dimensions in the past: a s**t-slinging fight with multiple people piling on.
> 
> Second, I do accept responsibility for INCORRECTLY naming anti-fat bias as "the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice". On further reflection, I realize that is an overused and inaccurate assertion. Yes, gays continue to be discriminated against. Yes, Blacks continue to be discriminated against. Yes, Hispanics continue to be discriminated against. Yes, some white people are more 'privileged' than others. On the latter, I happen to have a little personal experience. As someone who is half Jewish and carries a Jewish surname, I have suffered subtle anti-Semitism. Don't get me wrong, I don't equate this with anti-gay or anti-Black bias, but I am far from being some WASP Ivy League frat boy.
> 
> ...



you are still comparing one prejudice to another. no prejudice is the same or more than another nor does it need to be to be fought over. and unless a person has been in someone else's shoes no one has the right to compare injustices. but to be honest it's harder to make the assertion since as usual the numbers do not bear the idea that fat prejudices is so horrendous out.

fat people are not a true minority since nearly half of america is fat and those fat people have love partners and other people who love and care for them. that probably ends up being at least 80% of america. the other groups are much smaller parts of the population and ave a much harder time defending themselves. and even though fat prejudice is awful it is not out there to the degree that other types of racial prejudices are. as yourself, how often are fat people systematically murdered with the full consensus of the public? . there is no public ally sanctioned fat "genocide". 

part of the problem is that some people grab onto to fat prejudice with both hands. it's time to gain some perspective and confidence in who we are with our larger numbers and start acting with a purpose like the winners we are demographically. it's not true that we have it as bad or worse than as anyone else. no serious study bears it out at all. a sexual predilection to look at fat people as downtrodden victims and overestimate our suffering helps about as much as all of the fat folk crying of misery on diet ads. neither are who we really are.

fat folk can be and are often happy. fat folk can be and are often proud. they have love and life partners. they have families. they have careers and talents. they aren't all diabetics with high blood pressure and heart disease. even when they are they fit right in with the rest of average sized america. the rest is a constructed social lie. i think it's time to stop feeding into the lie because it's somehow sexually attractive to some. and it's time to stop encouraging people to be weak when some supportive strength is what's needed. 

View attachment 1380347_759243127438684_228502338_n.jpg


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## waldo (Oct 21, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> you are still comparing one prejudice to another. no prejudice is the same or more than another nor does it need to be to be fought over. and unless a person has been in someone else's shoes no one has the right to compare injustices. but to be honest it's harder to make the assertion since as usual the numbers do not bear the idea that fat prejudices is so horrendous out.
> 
> fat people are not a true minority since nearly half of america is fat and those fat people have love partners and other people who love and care for them. that probably ends up being at least 80% of america. the other groups are much smaller parts of the population and ave a much harder time defending themselves. and even though fat prejudice is awful it is not out there to the degree that other types of racial prejudices are. as yourself, how often are fat people systematically murdered with the full consensus of the public? . there is no public ally sanctioned fat "genocide".
> 
> ...



I must say I find your post extremely puzzling. Please explain what you are trying to say with the following statements that appear in your post:

"as yourself, how often are fat people systematically murdered with the full consensus of the public? . there is no public ally sanctioned fat "genocide"."

"a sexual predilection to look at fat people as downtrodden victims and overestimate our suffering helps about as much as all of the fat folk crying of misery on diet ads. "

" i think it's time to stop feeding into the lie because it's somehow sexually attractive to some."

As far as fat people being nearly half of America, the statistics do not bear this out. A recent CDC report indicates 35.7% of US adults were clinically obese (BMI > 30) in 2012, so that is more like one third. Also, I am not even sure how they got this number for the overall obesity rate because when they break it down by state it ranges from 20.5% to 34.7%
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

Another study has the US adult obesity rate at 31.8 %
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/264970.php

And even this BMI statistic seems high in estimatinging how many 'fat people' there are, when you consider the average height person only needs to be 175 lb (women, average height 5'4") or 210 lb (men, average height 5'10") for a BMI = 30. So the question of who is really 'fat', and as such, in clear risk of discrimination is unclear. This is especially true since we know BMI tends to overestimate the number of fat people by not taking body composition into account.

Now if you want to consider people really at risk of systematic discrimination, we should probably be focusing on people with BMI above 40 (~ 233 lb for average height woman and 280 lb for average height man). According to this recent study, *only about 6.6 % of US adults* fit this description in 2010.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22986681

So 6.6% gets you down in the range of other 'minority' groups for which unofficial systematic discrimination remains problematic and deleteriously affects quality of life.

Of course, in reality and depending on individual circumstances, the anti-fat bias can be an issue for different people at different weight levels.

This brings me to another excerpt from the excellent 1994 article by Elisabeth Williams titled "Divided we fall: reverse discrimination in the size acceptance movement":

"For all our struggles and successes, the great majority of America's millions of fat people still don't support our movement. Many openly oppose us as gluttonous losers who have given up on maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Perhaps, even worse, 25 years into the fight, most fat people are simply unaware of our existence.

Yet we, the so-called enlightened ones, still condone reverse size discrimination within our ranks. Too often we make thin and even moderately fat members and supporters feel unwelcome and unneeded. It is despicable that this late in the game, midsize newcomers still hear, "What are you doing here?" and "You're not fat enough for NAAFA." "

And so it goes, the point of the article in the original post on this thread was the irony of how so-called enlightened members of the progressive left, who are so proud of their general tolerance, have no problem getting on the fat-bashing bandwagon. This section of the article particularly stands out:

"I share this not for sympathy but for context. Its an answer to the people who seem surprised when I explain that no, I was never really bullied for being gay, but instead got made fun of for being fat on a daily basis. They are open-minded progressives, and I appreciate their fixation on the way LGBT people are treated; obviously, I share their concern. *But the treatment of overweight people is, for the most part, lost on them*. And thats largely because so many of my allies and fellow gay men championing equality  compassionate, forward-thinking individuals  are the same people delicately suggesting I lose some weight."


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## superodalisque (Oct 21, 2013)

waldo said:


> I must say I find your post extremely puzzling. Please explain what you are trying to say with the following statements that appear in your post:
> 
> "as yourself, how often are fat people systematically murdered with the full consensus of the public? . there is no public ally sanctioned fat "genocide"."
> 
> ...



so to boil it down, when was the last time a fat person was lynched for being fat? when was the last fat holocaust? when was the last anti fat legislation put into play that took away every fat person's civil rights or freedom. when was the last time research as refused purposefully on a disease because it specifically was only suppose to ravage fat people? when was the last time fat people were not allowed to marry or have children? when was the last time you were called a derogatory name after a log because you were so likely to be burned alive just for your sexuality? what you've said is a vast exaggeration and it takes away from our argument. these types of exaggerations don't help the movement very much and make us look irrational and insensitive when we ask others for help and support.

also i think 37% can correlate to nearly half but i'll concede that to you if it will help your argument to say 1/3rd. also the 6.6% you refer to is disreputable because fatness is not predicated on your personal idea of what truly fat is. and your basis on that is pretty odd since you go on to say that prejudice against smaller people within the community is at issue. 

the last post i made on another thread from the journal obesity that said when adjusted for demographical differences that those who have a high level obesity, which you nodded to_ show no statistical differences when it comes to being married or in a relationship. _ when you talk about how fat people are treated you also have to factor in those in supportive relationships with them like their SOs family and friends. 

you are also not taking into account those people who are smaller who are beginning to understand how the focus on weight is damaging young girls and boys. so overall the world you draw does not really exist except in the media. there are haters out there but they are much fewer of them than people like to pretend. and i would posit would be much more easy to overcome if they weren't quite as many of us agreeing with them in so many ways and handing them the power over us. 

part of the reason a lot of fat people don't want to identify with the community and that gets ignored by us is that they find the fixation on victimhood rather than celebration pretty distasteful. i really can't say that i blame them.


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## waldo (Oct 22, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> so to boil it down, when was the last time a fat person was lynched for being fat? when was the last fat holocaust? when was the last anti fat legislation put into play that took away every fat person's civil rights or freedom. when was the last time research as refused purposefully on a disease because it specifically was only suppose to ravage fat people? when was the last time fat people were not allowed to marry or have children? when was the last time you were called a derogatory name after a log because you were so likely to be burned alive just for your sexuality? what you've said is a vast exaggeration and it takes away from our argument. these types of exaggerations don't help the movement very much and make us look irrational and insensitive when we ask others for help and support.
> 
> also i think 37% can correlate to nearly half but i'll concede that to you if it will help your argument to say 1/3rd. also the 6.6% you refer to is disreputable because fatness is not predicated on your personal idea of what truly fat is. and your basis on that is pretty odd since you go on to say that prejudice against smaller people within the community is at issue.
> 
> ...



LOL

When you say:

"what you've said is a vast exaggeration and it takes away from our argument. these types of exaggerations don't help the movement very much and make us look irrational and insensitive when we ask others for help and support."

I assume you are talking about the statement "bigotry against fat people is the last bastion of societal endorsed prejudice"

Well firstly, I already recanted that statement, and secondly, I was probably actually correct when you consider that obesity is now classified by the American Medical Association as a disease state, showing just how entrenched and institutionalized the anti-fat bias is. In contrast, is homosexuality still considered a mental illness??? So there is a contrast in civil rights causes that have gone in opposite directions.

And anyway, what is the "argument" I supposed took away from? To hear you describe it, fat people really don't have a discrimination problem. It is just a matter of not allowing themselves to be a victim and they are fine. You are claiming they mostly live normal lives just like everyone else so what's the big deal, right? In the world according to SuperoD, fat people just need to buck up, have a stiff upper lip and live a normal, happy life like everyone else


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## superodalisque (Oct 22, 2013)

waldo said:


> LOL
> 
> When you say:
> 
> ...




first of all the AMA is not every person alive. it's a small institution and a lot of other medical professionals are actually challenging their viewpoint -- as are a whole lot of fat people themselves. also lives of fat people are composed of more than just a supposed medical history. we aren't going to let others define us. you can if you want to that's up to you.

fat people do have social challenges but so do lots of other people. it doesn't stop them from living. there are fat people right here on this site who went right on seeking for or loving partner the already have, looking after their career and educational goals, having children creating their great work of art literature and music. they did not jump off a cliff just because they were fat and some people don't like it. there is always someone out there willing to make you seem less than human if they can get away with it, but what is the point of meeting them halfway by actually agreeing with it hook line and sinker? why should we let them get away with it and give them, people who don't even like us, the power to define who and what we are? 

it's not about bucking up so much as it is about taking what's ours and not laying down for prejudice. now, if you want to believe fat people are all so horribly unattractive to absolutely everyone that they all must be alone despite evidence to the contrary--just go right ahead. if you want to believe that something must be wrong with you because you like it --go right ahead. if you want to feel you're a loser and identify with a sexual disorder because you are attracted to a fat person you are free to do that too. nobody is stopping you. and while you are wallowing in other people's negative opinions of you the rest of us will go right ahead on living and trying to get joy out of our fat loving lives--cause there is plenty to be had. and when the things that are not joyful come we'll fight back and not agree with them. 

all of the hand wringing and Debbie downing is counter productive. why not provide an alternative unless you want more of the same?

fat acceptance is not about accepting prejudicial ideas. it's about turning the prejudices on their heads questioning them, challenging them, poking holes in them, changing those perceptions and not going along with them or quoting them as some kind of fact that fat people have to live by. 

be the change. be responsible for the change that you say you want. stop upholding the thing you say is pressing you down. 

" ... man being condemned to be free carries the whole weight of the world on his shoulders; he is responsible for the world and or himself as a way of being."

Jean - Paul Sartre
Being and Nothingness


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 22, 2013)

Waldo, I think SuperO has made some salient points.

There are many leaders in SA that actually fought the AMA classification, as it reinforces the stereotype that fat people are inferior.....they are somehow diseased now. They were quite vocal, but again, because the general population of fat people don't rally behind causes, the myth again gets perpetuated. Win for the AMA, no matter how small a group they are, they just stigmatized almost 2/3 of America.

It would be easy to roll over and accept the additional health insurance that the AMA says is necessary to cover all the maladies caused by fat (which I think is utter nonsense. A body shape or size does not cause disease, and last I looked, average and thin people get those same diseases. Then why would these crazy fatties fight this?

Simple. They fight it for the same reason that SuperO has emphasized in her recent posts. Just because you're fat doesn't mean you have to live less of a life than anyone else. They want the jobs they're qualified for, and the ability to do things and go places unencumbered by fat hate and prejudice. Yes, there are many other prejudices that still exist, but we're in a fat forum where the purpose is to discuss weight related issues.

Can someone explain why we haven't had a fat march on Washington in years? In another thread I posted an online petition to request that Michele Obama refrain from being a special guest on The Biggest Loser show, since it promotes fat stereotypes, and bullying. TBL is a crock of shit, really. I have fat friends who are pole dancers, regular dancers, hikers, cyclists, mountain climbers, yoga instructors and weightlifters. They don't show the people on the show who represent the fat people that are healthy. The reason's obvious so I won't be redundant.

I don't think that anyone who's signed the petition (including me) thinks that Ms Obama will call NBC and tell them to stick it. That said, sometimes when enough people speak out (even by petition), others are called to cause.

It feels very alone at times to be fat. I was fat in my teen years, and I remember feeling like I was an island. That may be true of "FAs" as well, and anyone else who is moved to the size acceptance cause (and I have thin friends who do just that as fat activists and feminists).

There are a whole bunch of people who frequent Dims & other sites on the net and social media for the sex part of this community and could care less about size acceptance, or fat rights, or anything else that might be of importance to anyone else. That doesn't mean that those who do care about those things need to feel isolated. I think we need to put aside our differences (like my feelings about feederism) long enough to work towards the common goal.

As someone who promoted size events for several years, I remember thinking around early 2009 at the New Jersey BBW Bash that we're PEOPLE first, and if everyone treated fat people the same way they treat others, we wouldn't need events like this. I still feel the same way, and would rather work towards a goal of ensuring the proper treatment of fat people, rather than forcing people to live from fat event to fat event to feel comfortable in their own bodies.

While I'm sure that I'll get corrected by some, and ridiculed by others (because that's what has generally happened here over the years), the fact remains that fat people are treated worse today than ever in every way, and I feel it's only through a cooperative effort of all parts of the fat community that will give us a shot at minimizing this activity. That cooperative existed in both the civil rights and gay movements, so why wouldn't it be worth a try here?


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## waldo (Oct 23, 2013)

Folks,

Thanks for continuing the interesting discussion. One thing I notice is the number of views of this thread far outpacing the number of posts. Come on people, don't be shy - speak your minds. What's the worst that could happen? I guess you could be portrayed as a heartless pr**k like I have been (JK).

Anyway, I think this article in the original post has, in a way, really touched a nerve here since it has pointed out that the "progressive left" which always touts itself as the tolerant, egalitarian champion of the downtrodden is in fact largely anti-fat. So, ironically, the 'bitter clingers' of red states like Texas and Georgia may be more fat-accepting, if for no other reason than they have higher rates of fat people.




superodalisque said:


> first of all the AMA is not every person alive. it's a small institution and a lot of other medical professionals are actually challenging their viewpoint -- as are a whole lot of fat people themselves. also lives of fat people are composed of more than just a supposed medical history. we aren't going to let others define us. you can if you want to that's up to you.
> 
> fat people do have social challenges but so do lots of other people. it doesn't stop them from living. there are fat people right here on this site who went right on seeking for or loving partner the already have, looking after their career and educational goals, having children creating their great work of art literature and music. they did not jump off a cliff just because they were fat and some people don't like it. there is always someone out there willing to make you seem less than human if they can get away with it, but what is the point of meeting them halfway by actually agreeing with it hook line and sinker? why should we let them get away with it and give them, people who don't even like us, the power to define who and what we are?
> 
> ...



Yes, AMA is a small percentage of the US population, BUT it is the main group representing the medical profession, which is a traditional paragon of the establishment (doctors being generally amongst the most respected professionals). So their move toward labeling 'obesity' as a disease is a landmark turning point in the war on fat.

You are not the first one to label me as a 'Debbie downer'. In fact my own Dear Wife has done so repeatedly. I think when i consider it, she is not unlike yourself; she radiates a positive aura and that really makes all the difference. So I will give you *plenty of credit *for promoting the idea that a positive attitude will get a person farther in life (whether you are fat or thin, black or white, gay or straight, etc. etc.). In fact, one of the things that really irks me the most about the weight loss hustlers is how they portray that a person's life will 'magically' be so much better once they become thin. And we are all too aware that many people are rather disillusioned to realize that, in fact, losing weight did not 'solve' all their problems.

Let me respond to this comment:

" if you want to believe that something must be wrong with you because you like it --go right ahead. if you want to feel you're a loser and identify with a sexual disorder because you are attracted to a fat person you are free to do that too."

My belief (which I know you don't like) is that being strongly attracted to a fat body (as I always have been) is a type of sexual orientation. I do NOT believe myself to be a loser or suffering from a mental disorder because of this attraction to fat women. I am happy to be 'one of the few, the proud the practicing FAs'. I pity those who live 'in the closet'. Do I like the term FA? No. Is there a better term? Haven't heard of one. Does the argument that we don't need to label ourselves hold water? I don't think so. After all, otherwise we should be against use of the term 'gay' to describe men who prefer sex with other men.




wrestlingguy said:


> Waldo, I think SuperO has made some salient points.
> 
> There are many leaders in SA that actually fought the AMA classification, as it reinforces the stereotype that fat people are inferior.....they are somehow diseased now. They were quite vocal, but again, because the general population of fat people don't rally behind causes, the myth again gets perpetuated. Win for the AMA, no matter how small a group they are, they just stigmatized almost 2/3 of America.
> 
> ...



Good post, really helping to keep a mature discussion going.

As far as this statement:
"It feels very alone at times to be fat. I was fat in my teen years, and I remember feeling like I was an island. That may be true of "FAs" as well..."

I would say in some ways it is even more of an empty and alone feeling to be 'FA'. Why? Because fat people naturally befriend each other and thus offer mutual support against the discrimination they receive from society at large. In contrast the 'FA' is all too often completely alone.

Regarding:
" ...the fact remains that fat people are treated worse today than ever in every way, and I feel it's only through a cooperative effort of all parts of the fat community that will give us a shot at minimizing this activity."

Not sure fat people are treated worse than ever but certainly things don't seem to have gotten better, despite the increasing obesity rate. But certainly, a key to success is that people must put their differences aside and work toward the common goal of fat acceptance. Otherwise, the critical mass required to make a real difference is unlikely to be achieved.


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## Lamia (Oct 23, 2013)

That was a great article. I think the main point is that there is a hypocrisy within groups who pride themselves on tolerance and acceptance as they are often haters when it comes to fat. 

When I was younger there was contempt and derision for being fat. I've been 100 lbs overweight for the last 30 years and 200 lbs to 300 lbs overweight in the last 20. 

What I see now is not just "ewww you're fat", but "ewww you're a blight on society". Fat hatred has went from you're just a gross individual to you're a segment of society that needs wiped out. Are there any other TV shows targeting any other group to change themselves, with acceptable amounts of shaming. I can't think of any, except maybe hoarders. There is "Biggest Loser" and "Celebrity Fit Club" I know there have been some others, but my mind is blank at the moment. People love to watch fat people cry and be pushed to lose weight because they can live vicariously. This is what they would LOVE to do to the fat people in their lives, and in some cases they treat the fat people in their families like this. My dad thought shaming was a great motivator, it wasn't. 

I seriously doubt that there would be a fat genocide, but the way to head down that road is to dehumanize a group of people. 

The nightly news does this all the time with their headless fatties. They cut off the heads so as not to shame and fat people, but after seeing this for the passed 20 years at least I wonder about the kids that have grown up with it. Headless fatties coupled with hysteria over healthcare costs and taxpayers money etc. As if fat people don't pay taxes.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 23, 2013)

waldo said:


> Folks,
> 
> Thanks for continuing the interesting discussion. One thing I notice is the number of views of this thread far outpacing the number of posts. Come on people, don't be shy - speak your minds. What's the worst that could happen? I guess you could be portrayed as a heartless pr**k like I have been (JK).
> 
> ...



One of the reasons it is hard to convince people to speak out against fat oppression is because most fat people don't know they are oppressed. They live comfortably within the confines of their social structure and therefore there is no reason to rebel because just look at all the wonderful things we can do while fat. People who complain seem nitpicky for its own sake and why don't you just settle down and enjoy the full bounty of that which you are allowed? Rupaul's got his own show now, isn't that enough?

Speaking of Rupaul, I'm really bummed out that you've reached back to go get that 'last bastion' comment again.  I hadn't entered the conversation because I didn't want to have another go 'round with that topic but since you've encouraged lurkers to speak up, here I am. :bow: You are up in here bragging about your wife among people who can't marry or get proper visitation with their partners when they are in the hospital. Also, you're not this kid. This is about fat issues and I agree that the issues are real but can we not keep squeezing that old trope? We have a very wide selection of shitty people in the world who don't think other people should be able to adopt, marry, wear hoodies, receive health benefits, board airplanes, etc. with minions of people who see these things as reasonable apprehensions.


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## musicman (Oct 23, 2013)

Lamia said:


> What I see now is not just "ewww you're fat", but "ewww you're a blight on society". Fat hatred has went from you're just a gross individual to you're a segment of society that needs wiped out. Are there any other TV shows targeting any other group to change themselves, with acceptable amounts of shaming. I can't think of any, except maybe hoarders. There is "Biggest Loser" and "Celebrity Fit Club" I know there have been some others, but my mind is blank at the moment. People love to watch fat people cry and be pushed to lose weight because they can live vicariously. This is what they would LOVE to do to the fat people in their lives, and in some cases they treat the fat people in their families like this. My dad thought shaming was a great motivator, it wasn't.
> 
> I seriously doubt that there would be a fat genocide, but the way to head down that road is to dehumanize a group of people.




Well said! The media hysteria is totally out of control. And of course, it's all driven by money. The difference between fat people and other groups is that, when you add up all the weight loss scammers, doctors, drug companies, media, and politicians, there's a trillion-dollar industry dependent on fat hatred, discrimination, abuse, and shaming. I just don't see that kind of money dedicated toward hating any other group these days.


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## Paquito (Oct 23, 2013)

Disproportionate incarceration of people of color in prison, funding cut from healthcare for POC and women, beauty/entertainment/fashion industries that perpetuate impossible beauty standards for women, lack of opportunities and representation in the media, politicians working to prevent minorities from voting and making it into higher offices, disproportionate violence against trans* and queer people, sex trafficking, etc. etc.

If your political agenda against fatphobia requires that you put down and ignore other marginalized groups, _you're doing it wrong._


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## Diana_Prince245 (Oct 23, 2013)

Paquito said:


> Disproportionate incarceration of people of color in prison, funding cut from healthcare for POC and women, beauty/entertainment/fashion industries that perpetuate impossible beauty standards for women, lack of opportunities and representation in the media, politicians working to prevent minorities from voting and making it into higher offices, disproportionate violence against trans* and queer people, sex trafficking, etc. etc.
> 
> If your political agenda against fatphobia requires that you put down and ignore other marginalized groups, you're doing it wrong.



Completely true.


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## moonvine (Oct 23, 2013)

waldo said:


> My belief (which I know you don't like) is that being strongly attracted to a fat body (as I always have been) is a type of sexual orientation. I do NOT believe myself to be a loser or suffering from a mental disorder because of this attraction to fat women. I am happy to be 'one of the few, the proud the practicing FAs'. I pity those who live 'in the closet'. Do I like the term FA? No. Is there a better term? Haven't heard of one. Does the argument that we don't need to label ourselves hold water? I don't think so. After all, otherwise we should be against use of the term 'gay' to describe men who prefer sex with other men.



I don't get all this. My bf "likes big girls." His ex was as big as me if not bigger (I'm 5'4" and 300ish) No one cares, unless they are watching porn and he wants to watch different porn than other people. I don't know if it is the area of the country we live in or what, but no one cares (and he would not care if they did, which is helpful). To me, "I like big girls" is like "I like brown hair." I don't know why it needs to be labelled.


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## moonvine (Oct 23, 2013)

waldo said:


> I would say in some ways it is even more of an empty and alone feeling to be 'FA'. Why? Because fat people naturally befriend each other and thus offer mutual support against the discrimination they receive from society at large. In contrast the 'FA' is all too often completely alone.



This may be true amongst the enlightened folk here at Dims, but it sure was not true for me in high school. I was MAYBE 20-30 lbs "overweight" and was treated like I was huge. I'm ashamed to say I sure did not seek out and befriend others who were as fat or fatter than I was, I avoided them like the plague. Kids in high school are often mean and suck.

Even today I don't think I have a single friend that I befriended sole ly because they were fat, though I certainly have fat friends.


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## superodalisque (Oct 23, 2013)

Lamia said:


> That was a great article. I think the main point is that there is a hypocrisy within groups who pride themselves on tolerance and acceptance as they are often haters when it comes to fat.
> 
> When I was younger there was contempt and derision for being fat. I've been 100 lbs overweight for the last 30 years and 200 lbs to 300 lbs overweight in the last 20.
> 
> ...



nice point to consider except that genocide has nothing to do with appearance or difference. it has to do with the politics of economics. right now fat people are so broadly spread around interest groups that there is no reason to kill them and take their stuff. plus it's a condition that absolutely anyone could suddenly fall into and that is not attractive to would be murderers. genocide against Jewish people black people and even gay people was based in economics and political realities of the time. there are no such social connections with being fat and therefore no time in history anywhere that fat people have been singled out for genocide. no one group has ever been killed specifically just because people don't like what the looked like. they've only been killed for differences as an excuse to take their wealth etc...


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## waldo (Oct 24, 2013)

LillyBBBW said:


> One of the reasons it is hard to convince people to speak out against fat oppression is because most fat people don't know they are oppressed. They live comfortably within the confines of their social structure and therefore there is no reason to rebel because just look at all the wonderful things we can do while fat. People who complain seem nitpicky for its own sake and why don't you just settle down and enjoy the full bounty of that which you are allowed? Rupaul's got his own show now, isn't that enough?
> 
> Speaking of Rupaul, I'm really bummed out that you've reached back to go get that 'last bastion' comment again.  I hadn't entered the conversation because I didn't want to have another go 'round with that topic but since you've encouraged lurkers to speak up, here I am. :bow: You are up in here bragging about your wife among people who can't marry or get proper visitation with their partners when they are in the hospital. Also, you're not this kid. This is about fat issues and I agree that the issues are real but can we not keep squeezing that old trope? We have a very wide selection of shitty people in the world who don't think other people should be able to adopt, marry, wear hoodies, receive health benefits, board airplanes, etc. with minions of people who see these things as reasonable apprehensions.



I don't agree that "most fat people don't know they are oppressed". Of course it may depend on your definition of oppression. Fat people are not stupid and know very well the extent to which society, as a whole, looks down on them and how this affects their lives in multiple ways both personal and professional. Now whether fat people are complacent about this oppression, I won't argue with you on that. The problem is that most fat people agree with society's view that they just need to lose weight, and all will be well. In contrast, homosexuals can't just 'go straight' and blacks and other visible minorities can't just 'turn white'.

Regarding: "I'm really bummed out that you've reached back to go get that 'last bastion' comment again."

Well let me clarify:* I am not retracting the recanting of that statement*. The thing is that it becomes a matter of semantics. And when I remembered the AMA (an establishment group of the highest order other than maybe the Federal Reserve) labeling of obesity as a disease in and of itself, it does support the idea that fat people are about the easiest group to marginalize. Any rational person will acknowledge that multiple other groups (blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, etc.) continue to be marginalized / discriminated against. And, as was said earlier in this thread, you can pass laws to prevent discrimination against particular groups, but effectively enforcing these laws in the real world is a whole other matter. The thing is, we shouldn't allow ourselves to get bogged down in semantics and squabbles about who has it worse. Either we are interested in furthering fat acceptance, or we are just a social network for fat people and their admirers.

As for the statement about me being "up in here bragging about your wife among people who can't marry or get proper visitation with their partners when they are in the hospital.", I must say I take offense. Am I not supposed to say I am married? I was simply mentioning the fact that I realize that a positive attitude, as shown by my own wife, (who happens to be fat) is important for how you are perceived by others. Myself in contrast is Mr Debbie Downer, and people don't really like me, regardless of my weight.

BTW: I would have responded in a PM, but it appears you have blocked those so here we are putting it for all to view.

Be Well Ms Lilly


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 24, 2013)

waldo said:


> I don't agree that "most fat people don't know they are oppressed". Of course it may depend on your definition of oppression. Fat people are not stupid and know very well the extent to which society, as a whole, looks down on them and how this affects their lives in multiple ways both personal and professional. Now whether fat people are complacent about this oppression, I won't argue with you on that. The problem is that most fat people agree with society's view that they just need to lose weight, and all will be well. In contrast, homosexuals can't just 'go straight' and blacks and other visible minorities can't just 'turn white'.
> 
> Regarding: "I'm really bummed out that you've reached back to go get that 'last bastion' comment again."
> 
> ...



I had to shut my PMs down. I was away for a while and while I was gone my name must have been mentioned somewhere because I started getting these 'hey sexi' messages from faceless accounts for a few days. I don't know what happened but I didn't have time for that.

My point was not that you shouldn't talk about your wife. Actually, those parts of your posts were quite charming so please, feel free. You have not proven that it is the last bastion just by pointing to the AMA. Will fat people be stopped and frisked now? Will we be shot and killed by police for looking suspicious? Will we be arrested for buying too many baked goods? My point is that there are different kinds of oppression and the oppression olympics seems a pointless exercise. "Who is more opressed," is not proof of any last bastion of prejudice. It's something we can't know.

ETA: and yes I realize now that you were not recanting the recanting of the last bastion statement. This is just the long version of simply saying there is nothing wrong with talking about your wife, I was just using that as contrast.


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