# Is Your Good Nature Killing You?



## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

there seems to be a lot of very sad guys on dims. sometimes it seems there are a lot of guys with mental and emotional issues. i do have empathy and so does everybody else and boy do they sometimes use it against us! when they misbehave they count on us to keep their secrets and feel sorry for them and make allowances. they find it easy to take up a woman's time without intention even when they know she is actually looking. they find it easy to socialize, flirt and never date anyone-- not to mention chatting and making promises but never meeting. we're expected to listen to long drawn out exhortations about their preferences and web models they have crushes on and also hear every day how much of a burden it is to "admire" a fat woman. i have a problem with the word admire because its not an engaging word. its something looked at and not touched. our own problems and issues are an afterthought or something they just don't want to think about because it spoils a fat fantasy. we often try to listen and be patient and supportive--but to what end? boy do they have us soft hearted fat girls pegged. but maybe we have to be more soft hearted for us for a change? i know a lot of folks are tired of having others work out their angst on us in one way or another as a group. don't we have enough to deal with already? it makes me wonder of some of them are really attracted at all or its just that they know where to go to get tolerance. is that why so few of them are even willing to date or be in a relationship? is it really about us or just about them? what are your feelings? *rant over*


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 25, 2010)

For me this is definitely true, but probably not in that particular context.  It's funny that in certain areas of my life I'm no nonsense and matter of fact about things. One would think I haven't an empathetic bone in my body but then in certain other aspects I seem to stumble and flounder about helplessly each time. I find myself in circumstances like that so often that I'm forced to have to stop and take a look at myself. It would be really easy to blame the other person in this instance but if I'm really honest with myself I have to confess that the problem is of my own doing, especially if it keeps happening. It's up to me to set boundaries and speak truthfully. My empathy gets the better of me at times and it obscures some obvious variables in the circumstance. I want to be understanding and treat him in the same compassionate manner I would wish to be treated within the same circumstance but often times the circumstance in NOT the same. He's not me, and if he were me he would not be using his weaknesses as a form of control. I would never do that and sometimes you have to see someone's actions for what they are and take the appropriate action. Otherwise you have no one but yourself to blame for allowing toxic circumstances to continue. It seems harsh but I've found in my case it is necessary. It's more helpful to me AND him. I'm doing him no favors by allowing him to get away with toxic behavior. Either it will be the push he needs to get back on his feet or it will be the push he needs to walk away and seek another mark. I've never been disappointed in this approach but when lingering on in toxic relationships the disappointments are legion.


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## chicken legs (Jul 25, 2010)

If you don't want to be friends with a guy..then don't. Be honest to yourself and him about your intentions.

I also agree with Lilly....avoid toxic relationships no matter what the gender or what type of relationship it is.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> For me this is definitely true, but probably not in that particular context.  It's funny that in certain areas of my life I'm no nonsense and matter of fact about things. One would think I haven't an empathetic bone in my body but then in certain other aspects I seem to stumble and flounder about helplessly each time. I find myself in circumstances like that so often that I'm forced to have to stop and take a look at myself. It would be really easy to blame the other person in this instance but if I'm really honest with myself I have to confess that the problem is of my own doing, especially if it keeps happening. It's up to me to set boundaries and speak truthfully. My empathy gets the better of me at times and it obscures some obvious variables in the circumstance. I want to be understanding and treat him in the same compassionate manner I would wish to be treated within the same circumstance but often times the circumstance in NOT the same. He's not me, and if he were me he would not be using his weaknesses as a form of control. I would never do that and sometimes you have to see someone's actions for what they are and take the appropriate action. Otherwise you have no one but yourself to blame for allowing toxic circumstances to continue. It seems harsh but I've found in my case it is necessary. It's more helpful to me AND him. I'm doing him no favors by allowing him to get away with toxic behavior. Either it will be the push he needs to get back on his feet or it will be the push he needs to walk away and seek another mark. I've never been disappointed in this approach but when lingering on in toxic relationships the disappointments are legion.



yes exactly. i really love what you said about it being a toxic relationship and weakness being a form of control because it is. i think its very easy to delude oneself that its a friendship or you're being helpful when you really aren't. whats often happening is that you are allowing the person to become more retarded in development and justifying him in self retardation.


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## Markt (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> there seems to be a lot of very sad guys on dims. sometimes it seems there are a lot of guys with mental and emotional issues. i do have empathy and so does everybody else and boy do they sometimes use it against us! when they misbehave they count on us to keep their secrets and feel sorry for them and make allowances. they find it easy to take up a woman's time without intention even when they know she is actually looking. they find it easy to socialize, flirt and never date anyone-- not to mention chatting and making promises but never meeting. we're expected to listen to long drawn out exhortations about their preferences and web models they have crushes on and also hear every day how much of a burden it is to "admire" a fat woman. i have a problem with the word admire because its not an engaging word. its something looked at and not touched. our own problems and issues are an afterthought or something they just don't want to think about because it spoils a fat fantasy. we often try to listen and be patient and supportive--but to what end? boy do they have us soft hearted fat girls pegged. but maybe we have to be more soft hearted for us for a change? i know a lot of folks are tired of having others work out their angst on us in one way or another as a group. don't we have enough to deal with already? it makes me wonder of some of them are really attracted at all or its just that they know where to go to get tolerance. is that why so few of them are even willing to date or be in a relationship? is it really about us or just about them? what are your feelings? *rant over*



sad but true.


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## chicken legs (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> yes exactly. i really love what you said about it being a toxic relationship because it is. i think its very easy to delude oneself that its a friendship or your being helpful when you really aren't. whats often happening is that you are allowing the person to become more retarded in development and justifying him in self retardation.



ahahahahah....self retardation..that tickled me. Yeah its not helpful to let someone walk around with their zipper down and toilet paper on their shoe because you might offend them by telling them so.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 25, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> yes exactly. i really love what you said about it being a toxic relationship and weakness being a form of control because it is. i think its very easy to delude oneself that its a friendship or you're being helpful when you really aren't. whats often happening is that you are allowing the person to become more retarded in development and justifying him in self retardation.



I find also that my own self esteem tends to complicate matters when it comes to standing up for myself. A few years ago I was in a toxic friendship with a woman who was very well liked by everyone and we ran in the same circles. I wasn't near as popular as she was and hadn't the history with everyone she had, yet I was being sorely taken advantage of and needed to take action. I feared that doing so would put me in a bad light and naturally everyone would take sides and rally around her. Crossing her would in a sense make me a social pariah. We can declare the high ground on this all we like and recite life affirming slogans about doing what's right but I knew the severance would have a tangible impact and at that stage of my developement I knew it would be a bitter pill to swallow. Time is a powerful vindicator though. The fallout wasn't near as horrible as I imagined it would be and in the end I did myself a favor. Those who were my friends truly *were* my friends who honor and respect me and most of all, I can honor and respect myself. It was the best decision I ever made though it was not an easy one to make.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I find also that my own self esteem tends to complicate matters when it comes to standing up for myself. A few years ago I was in a toxic friendship with a woman who was very well liked by everyone and we ran in the same circles. I wasn't near as popular as she was and hadn't the history with everyone she had, yet I was being sorely taken advantage of and needed to take action. I feared that doing so would put me in a bad light and naturally everyone would take sides and rally around her. Crossing her would in a sense make me a social pariah. We can declare the high ground on this all we like and recite life affirming slogans about doing what's right but I knew the severance would have a tangible impact and at that stage of my developement I knew it would be a bitter pill to swallow. Time is a powerful vindicator though. The fallout wasn't near as horrible as I imagined it would be and in the end I did myself a favor. Those who were my friends truly *were* my friends who honor and respect me and most of all, I can honor and respect myself. It was the best decision I ever made though it was not an easy one to make.



these are great points. and in the community sense i think if people do or say certain things they fear the same kinds of repercussions. people have made some really great friends and don't want to lose them--friends who understand a lot that other's can't. that makes it doubly hard. so they don't want to say anything harsh because they fear the alienation. but like you said, your real friends will stick with you anyway and time will always prove you out.


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## Myn (Jul 25, 2010)

I've stayed completely away from romantic relationships for a very long time for pretty much just this reason. I tend to want to make people happy, and if what someone wants from me is sex, I'll fold like a cheap suit even when my logical brain is saying "Whoa, nelly." If they want money, time, a listening ear, an audience, someone to admire them, I tend towards trying to give it unless I catch myself. Eventually I resent that everything goes one way, but then, I created the situation by training them to believe that's the way things should be.

I've gotten better about making friendships reciprocal, although with my family it continues to be a work in progress to ask for as much I give. It's actually a bit easier in some ways to have my son that requires so much, because where I'll just roll my eyes and give up my comfort for my mom, anyone stepping on _his_ toes will draw back a stump where their leg used to be.

I don't know if it's self esteem, exactly, so much as a psychotically helpful nature. It's not that I don't think I'm worthy of respect, it's that I want to fix everything and make everybody happy. I just get so focused on the goal, though, that I forget completely about making myself happy - a fact my ex-husband took full advantage of.


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## superodalisque (Jul 25, 2010)

Myn said:


> I've stayed completely away from romantic relationships for a very long time for pretty much just this reason. I tend to want to make people happy, and if what someone wants from me is sex, I'll fold like a cheap suit even when my logical brain is saying "Whoa, nelly." If they want money, time, a listening ear, an audience, someone to admire them, I tend towards trying to give it unless I catch myself. Eventually I resent that everything goes one way, but then, I created the situation by training them to believe that's the way things should be.
> 
> I've gotten better about making friendships reciprocal, although with my family it continues to be a work in progress to ask for as much I give. It's actually a bit easier in some ways to have my son that requires so much, because where I'll just roll my eyes and give up my comfort for my mom, anyone stepping on _his_ toes will draw back a stump where their leg used to be.
> 
> I don't know if it's self esteem, exactly, so much as a psychotically helpful nature. It's not that I don't think I'm worthy of respect, it's that I want to fix everything and make everybody happy. I just get so focused on the goal, though, that I forget completely about making myself happy - a fact my ex-husband took full advantage of.



i was thinking about that too. aren't women kind of trained to be agreeable , supportive and nurturing. do you think that has something to do with it?


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## Myn (Jul 25, 2010)

I think that's part of it. Growing up, and especially around my great-grandmother and my grandmother, the behavior that got approval was being "nice." Don't run so hard, don't talk so loud, just sit here quietly and help me cook your grandfather's lunch, take care of your brother, take care of your cousins, take care of your sister, go around and make sure no one needs anything, etc. etc. Don't make a show of yourself, don't be a burden to anyone, to be a lady you have to wait quietly in the background until someone needs you.

And, of course, the absolutely worst thing you could possibly ever be: selfish.

It's only as an adult that I've started thinking that maybe selfish isn't actually that bad - certainly I don't hold it against other people when they think about their own good, and no one else is thinking about mine. The problem is how to actually turn a logical conclusion into something I actually live by.


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## calauria (Jul 25, 2010)

Myn said:


> I think that's part of it. Growing up, and especially around my great-grandmother and my grandmother, the behavior that got approval was being "nice." Don't run so hard, don't talk so loud, just sit here quietly and help me cook your grandfather's lunch, take care of your brother, take care of your cousins, take care of your sister, go around and make sure no one needs anything, etc. etc. Don't make a show of yourself, don't be a burden to anyone, to be a lady you have to wait quietly in the background until someone needs you.
> 
> And, of course, the absolutely worst thing you could possibly ever be: selfish.
> 
> It's only as an adult that I've started thinking that maybe selfish isn't actually that bad - certainly I don't hold it against other people when they think about their own good, and no one else is thinking about mine. The problem is how to actually turn a logical conclusion into something I actually live by.



Oh, girlfriend, with family all hell is gonna break loose when you start thinking of your own needs and wants. Believe me I know. I've gotten sick and tired of my family. And I'm not even thinking about them anymore, they can take care of themselves and their own damn problems! If they can't I'll guess they have to learn in a hurry. They have obviously shown me many times that they don't give a damn about me, but this last time my lil ones were involved and, "oh hell no!!" don't be complacent about the safety and care of my lil ones, you'll be starting WWIII!! So, the hell with them. They don't need me and I sure as hell don't need them!!


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## calauria (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, I'm a bisexual female, but as far as men are concerned............I believe it when I see it, if I don't see it then there is no way in hell I'm gonna believe it. I think I've learn my lesson dealing with those suckas. Because men say all sorts of things they think we want to hear. It takes time to weed out the good from the bad, but in some cases the bad can perservere. 

And as far as women are concerned, so far, I've only been attracted to women who are feminine, so far, but I'm open to whomever treats me how I wished to be treated and we have a connection. I'm kinda new at dating women. Most of my experience with women have been sexual, but not that sexual. More of making out than anything. But, I can say that women can be as bad as men about wanting sex when you just met them, also and if you say no, they will get mad and don't want much to do with you. And.....they can be as objectifying as men. They can also don't call when they say they are and stand you up on dates, too. All the same shit only its a woman. Its more of finding someone who treats you with respect and as a human being, same thing as with men.


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## CastingPearls (Jul 25, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I find also that my own self esteem tends to complicate matters when it comes to standing up for myself. A few years ago I was in a toxic friendship with a woman who was very well liked by everyone and we ran in the same circles. I wasn't near as popular as she was and hadn't the history with everyone she had, yet I was being sorely taken advantage of and needed to take action. I feared that doing so would put me in a bad light and naturally everyone would take sides and rally around her. Crossing her would in a sense make me a social pariah. We can declare the high ground on this all we like and recite life affirming slogans about doing what's right but I knew the severance would have a tangible impact and at that stage of my development I knew it would be a bitter pill to swallow. Time is a powerful vindicator though. The fallout wasn't near as horrible as I imagined it would be and in the end I did myself a favor. Those who were my friends truly *were* my friends who honor and respect me and most of all, I can honor and respect myself. It was the best decision I ever made though it was not an easy one to make.



THIS. Almost word for word I experienced this and it was hell but also an 'AHA moment' I absolutely needed to prove to myself that in any relationship in the long run it was better to be true to me than to appease or suppress myself, my self respect and my needs. It taught me that 'peace at any cost' is not true peace at all.



calauria said:


> Oh, girlfriend, with family all hell is gonna break loose when you start thinking of your own needs and wants. Believe me I know. I've gotten sick and tired of my family. And I'm not even thinking about them anymore, they can take care of themselves and their own damn problems! If they can't I'll guess they have to learn in a hurry. They have obviously shown me many times that they don't give a damn about me, but this last time my lil ones were involved and, "oh hell no!!" don't be complacent about the safety and care of my lil ones, you'll be starting WWIII!! So, the hell with them. They don't need me and I sure as hell don't need them!!



My family (what's left of them--the true warriors have passed on) are the first ones to whisper, 'Shush! Don't make waves. Be happy. Be grateful for what you have.' It doesn't matter to them that I may be miserable. To them, I'm crazy for rocking the boat. Lucky for me, all they can do is talk (ohhh and they do) which is fine. If anything I use their reaction as a measure of what NOT to do. I trust my own instincts and successful mentors who have no vested interest in controlling me or my own.

Want to call me a bitch or ungrateful or worse? (gotta LOVE 'too independent' too)---Go right ahead but that won't stop me from using my voice and finding my OWN way.


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## Dolce (Jul 25, 2010)

If after 4-6 emails a man has not asked for my number I simply stop replying. Sometimes the retreat causes them to pursue and some times it doesn't. If a man wants me, he will pursue me. Women are no different. We like to pursue, too. Sadly, it never ends well. The man is the one who winds up retreating. So here are some 'rules' I live by when I am truly interested in a man. 

1. After 4-6 emails I stop replying
2. Take red flags for what they are - no matter how handsome or attractive he appears to be. 
3. If a man does not show interest in me as a person (asking me questions about my life, hopes, dreams), I drop him.

Sometimes this approach hurts because there have been men I have had a strong irrational attraction to. But experience has taught me that if they are not engaging and pursuing me to some degree, the romance I long for will never materialize into anything more than a fantasy. 

That being said, Some men I just enjoy chatting with as friends. I accept the fact that they are going to say and do things that might cause some internal disapproval. If I have a real problem with their behavior I bring it up in a friendly way, free of judgment and give them the opportunity to redeem themselves. Typically, I keep it to myself, though. Criticism stops all hope of intimacy. 

Every woman is special and different, so is every man. No one can say he or she is better than the other regardless of size, income, age or cultural background. We all have our unique gifts. Anyone who has known identical twins knows just how different even the most similar of people can be. So celebrate your differences and never look down on yourself. We are all works in progress and deserve to be loved by a suitable match. But if we wait around listening to the bores drone on, he just might pass us by. Besides, we might become jaded and bitter, thinking all men are like "that". I would hate for people to judge my shortcomings in that way - by putting me in a box as THAT kind of person. I say just accept people for who they are and choose relationships based on YOUR standards and at your own discretion.

Unless you are his therapist or mother, it is not your job to help him. Do you want a ward or a partner? I think the whole idea of 'helping' someone you see as being mentally, emotionally, or socially inferior while at the same time resenting them is perverse. But I have done it, too. As women we are natural nurturers and caretakers, but we must not let that get in the way of us taking care of ourselves. Let's keep those healthy boundaries, ladies! 

>>> Gets off soap box...


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## chicken legs (Jul 25, 2010)

When it comes to the "broken wing" syndrome..the question is would you still be together if it were mended?


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 26, 2010)

chicken legs said:


> When it comes to the "broken wing" syndrome..the question is would you still be together if it were mended?



In many cases no, and here's why. Relationships work best when both parties are growing and I've been on both ends of this scenario. Standing up for yourself contributes to your growth while doing nothing causes one to stagnate. If by some chance your partner is a stand up person, does progress and become a better person the chances s/he will continue on with you will be that much less because s/he will have outgrown you. You have very little to gain by contributing to both your and his retardation by doing nothing.


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## Ruffie (Jul 26, 2010)

Good points made from everyone thus far! The one thing I would add is that we as human beings have a deep seated need to connect. We put ourselves out there in friendships, family relationships, and romantic entanglements because we want to feel wanted and needed. When hurt or disappointed we have to retreat, lick our wounds and prepare to go out again into the world to start over again(hopefully taking from it the lessons learned). There is nothing wrong in my opinion in continuing to be friends with someone as long as we are clear with the person we are dealing with that this is what the relationship is. Likewise we have to set our boundaries and people who are energy vampires, do not respect who we are and where we want to go need to be removed from our lives in order to allow us to grow. I have learned this the hard way not only in my personal life but in what I do for a paycheck. Sometimes you can spend years trying to help a person and they are not willing to take the steps to help themselves so you have to step back and let them fly or fall on their own resources. If you do not feel respect, love, and trust with a person then move on. If you continue to give past that point you do pay a price.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 26, 2010)

Ruffie said:


> Good points made from everyone thus far! The one thing I would add is that we as human beings have a deep seated need to connect. We put ourselves out there in friendships, family relationships, and romantic entanglements because we want to feel wanted and needed. When hurt or disappointed we have to retreat, lick our wounds and prepare to go out again into the world to start over again(hopefully taking from it the lessons learned). There is nothing wrong in my opinion in continuing to be friends with someone as long as we are clear with the person we are dealing with that this is what the relationship is. Likewise we have to set our boundaries and people who are energy vampires, do not respect who we are and where we want to go need to be removed from our lives in order to allow us to grow. I have learned this the hard way not only in my personal life but in what I do for a paycheck. Sometimes you can spend years trying to help a person and they are not willing to take the steps to help themselves so you have to step back and let them fly or fall on their own resources. If you do not feel respect, love, and trust with a person then move on. If you continue to give past that point you do pay a price.



That is very well put and a couple of excellent points.

As much as many posters here laud the BHM board for being simple and drama free, one perennial problem that comes up all the time is a BHM posts pictures and if he is not drowned with compliments immediately, he gets angry and states that we're all fakes, don't really like fat guys, and the whole board needs to die in the proverbial internet fire. In many of these cases, the simple truth is the man in question was simply not physically appealing to the FFA and they politely said nothing. But we are always expected to be the ego boosters and emotional caretakers even if doing so would be a total lie.

Some men, not just on Dims, seem to believe that women are supposed to be perennially understanding of them even at the woman's own expense. An old friend of mine recently got separated. During his marriage he'd engaged in several affairs, including one that was quite serious. The mistress loved him very much and wanted him to leave his wife which he did not want to do at the time. She told him she loved him but did not want to be the other woman, and made a package of all the gifts he'd given her and sent them back. He called me very sad and angry and hurt that she would have done this. I pointed out that she was hurt and she was breaking up with him because he was married and he had nothing to offer her! He said that he did not want to leave his daughter and basically expected this woman to understand his feelings and his position and not hurt his feelings, nonwithstanding that he was married. He seemed to expect her to care about his feelings all the while not realizing that she got nothing from the relationship.


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## Myn (Jul 26, 2010)

> Sometimes you can spend years trying to help a person and they are not willing to take the steps to help themselves so you have to step back and let them fly or fall on their own resources.



And sometimes people don't want to be helped, which can be hard to accept. They _say_ they do, they'll beg for help, but they'll sabotage every effort, so you're working harder than they are and then comforting them when every effort fails. They don't care about anything but keeping your world revolving around them, and it can be hard to recognize that when you're busily engaged in fixing things.


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## CastingPearls (Jul 26, 2010)

Myn said:


> And sometimes people don't want to be helped, which can be hard to accept. They _say_ they do, they'll beg for help, but they'll sabotage every effort, so you're working harder than they are and then comforting them when every effort fails. They don't care about anything but keeping your world revolving around them, and it can be hard to recognize that when you're busily engaged in fixing things.


THIS

I devoted 8 years of my life to a man who withheld physical affection and I barely noticed for the first five years because I was beset by tragedy after tragedy, deaths and their fallout, family crisis, work drama, etc. ad nauseum and it wasn't until I got deathly ill and was flat on my back for nearly two years that I woke up as from a dream and said WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON???

To the people who say, how could you have let this happen or lived with it--I'll tell you...it doesn't start out in the beginning as complete withdrawal and utter self-absorption. You see some red(ish) flags but you're still navigating the newness of the relationship and you love the person and think, maybe it's me-maybe I need to fix/adjust my own behavior and you try every fucking thing you can think of and nothing changes. They will do anything to avoid conflict so they'll promise you the world OR spitefully punish you for (or accuse you of) not being sensitive to THEIR issues. Your issues to them are non-existant because they build more walls of issues so they will never be emotionally available to tend to YOUR needs or requests. And your requests and needs are NEVER that--they're demands from a nagging bitch because you're at your wits end and are desperate to be heard and hate how far it's gone and can this wreck be salvaged. And you grieve because you know it can't. 

The promises are never ever fulfilled unless it's an occasional grand gesture which is somehow supposed to miraculously make up for years of wondering WTF exactly YOU did wrong and if you're distracted or lack the stamina (due to illness) or focus you don't see your self-esteem being steadily chipped away day by fucking day until you're sitting there crying so hard you feel like you've been physically beaten and are ASHAMED how you USED to be so independent, you USED to be so confident, you USED to never take shit from anyone and now you're being spoonfed it on a daily basis because you love him and believe in your promises and vows even if he never EVER believed in them or intended to keep them himself. 

I hold no grudges against anyone who doesn't understand. You will never know unless you're in it. Your own entire family may be fooled, as is mine. I'm the villain. I'm told to make him happy, keep my mouth shut, I could lose the house. FUCK THE HOUSE! Not at the expense of my mind, my happiness, my well-being--everything that screams in me GET THE FUCK OUT. I can't even leave until I have enough resources to do it but I'm actively working on it. I used to not be able to imagine a life without him. Now, I can't imagine a life with him but without love. I'd rather a life without him with peace of mind, even if that means the only love in my life is mine for myself.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 26, 2010)

http://padontstandforpaloalto.wordpress.com/

This was cross posted in my thread on recovering from a passive aggressive relationship. Trust me if you have not read it already you'll break your neck nodding along to all the things women post when they've been around a PA.


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## TraciJo67 (Jul 26, 2010)

Power imbalance in a relationship can be a grueling thing to be a part of, and it affects more than just the two involved, if they have children. I grew up watching my father treat my mother as nothing more than a glorified servant. She would sometimes beg him to love her. I hated HER for that. I didn’t know any better &#8211; to me, she was the weak one, and I despised that weakness. I’ve come to understand that she had some very difficult obstacles, not the least of which was no marketable skills and 5 children to raise. But when she did go back to work, and later to school, and later still to a job that paid her very well, she STILL couldn’t leave him &#8211; not for very long, anyway. They’ve been married and divorced &#8211; to each other &#8211; three times. That wasn’t a lot of fun to experience, growing up. The constant turmoil, upheaval, the refusal on both sides to just cut their losses and move on. I grew up believing that dependence on a man was a loathsome quality. That has both served me well and hindered me, as I have a very difficult time with expressing vulnerability and asking for help. But I still don’t understand what allows a person to subjugate him/herself to another. I’d rather starve than be dependent. I’d rather cry every night, alone, than spend one minute with someone who didn’t treat me well. I’m not pretending that I’m the picture of stellar emotional health &#8211; I have a bit too much of the “cut off my own nose to spite my face” in me, for starters. My two sisters are exactly the same way. My youngest brother is very like our father and, not surprisingly, married a woman who is just like good old mom. His kids get to watch the never-ending cycle of mom’s dependence and dad’s emotional cruelty. 

I don’t know what held my mother back from just leaving him for good, after she gained a measurable degree of financial independence, and her children were grown up. He needed her, that was clear. But he didn’t respect her, and he didn’t love her, and that was also clear. I think that there was a part of her that thrived on the emotional chaos. I often wonder if this is also the case with women who stay with men who clearly do not love or value them. I think that my mother spent her entire life trying , in vain, to make her FATHER love her. She found an emotionally distant man who withheld love and affection in the same unhappy yet predictable pattern that she’d established with her father. Not only did she fail at that, she raised 5 children who respected her as little as her husband did. It is what we were taught, in myriad ways, both subtly and overtly.


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> http://padontstandforpaloalto.wordpress.com/
> 
> This was cross posted in my thread on recovering from a passive aggressive relationship. Trust me if you have not read it already you'll break your neck nodding along to all the things women post when they've been around a PA.



I was surprised to see that other thread in the lounge.


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## Carrie (Jul 26, 2010)

I will be honest and put forth what will likely be an unpopular theory. In this community, certainly some of the allowances made for males is due to good nature, but I think an equal amount is due to a simple desire to not be alone. The dating pool is shallow at best, and tends to become even more shallow as a woman's size increases. This coupled with most people's completely understandable desire to be in a relationship as opposed to being alone results in a tendency to provide a potential mate with a much wider margin for error, excuses for questionable behavior, chance after chance after chance, because if not *him*, then who? Who else is even out there? 

I think the term "self-esteem" is thrown around a lot, sometimes carelessly, but that's not quite what I'm getting at here. I think a woman can have okay self-esteem but still want love enough to maybe allow iffy behavior on the off chance that it will resolve and everything will be okay. I mean, we're human, we want love, there's nothing wrong with that. People do all sorts of crazy shit for love, regardless of size. But in this particular "community", for lack of a better word, I do believe a lot of it boils down to a lack of potential partners. Oh, and this is not me judging from an ivory tower, btw. I've been there myself, providing the excuses and justifying the behavior and learned the hard way how short-sighted and harmful to myself it is. Like Dolce said in her post, I have some guidelines for myself now that I keep in mind, to ensure I don't go down that road again. 

Anyway. To be honest, I really don't think this question is, at its root, one that is FA-specific, nor is it even male-specific. People have been putting up with bad behavior from and making excuses for potential mates since the dawn of - well, if not the dawn of time, certainly the dawn of dating (I can't be the only one picturing two cavepeople on an awkward first date at T.G.I.Friday's right now. "Ungh! Nice loincloth." "Thanks! Got at Target. Want onion blossom?"). In this particular context, I do think it is often related to the small number of available FAs out there, but you see it everywhere, in every spectrum of the dating world. The desire to be coupled is a very strong one.

People of all sizes have a responsibility to themselves to decide what is and isn't acceptable treatment, and to act accordingly. If we allow a guy to treat us shabbily more than once - or even once, in a lot of cases - it's on us as individuals. Never mind that ten women before you allowed him to do it. You can't control that, you can't control them or him; you can only control your own values and behavior. You can't blame it on vague "expectations" that FAs have, or on the community or this board or the internets. Whatever a person's expectations are of you, YOU are the person to fulfill or not fulfill them and set them straight. For those of us who do encounter guys who have expectations of our personalities and behavior based on our body shape/size, do you really want to spend a second of your time talking to him? About anything? To me, this is not a person who is in need of education, this is a person who is a fucking moron, regardless of their IQ. Nobody I *want* to know thinks that way.


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## Carrie (Jul 26, 2010)

CastingPearls said:


> To the people who say, how could you have let this happen or lived with it--I'll tell you...it doesn't start out in the beginning as complete withdrawal and utter self-absorption. You see some red(ish) flags but you're still navigating the newness of the relationship and you love the person and think, maybe it's me-maybe I need to fix/adjust my own behavior and you try every fucking thing you can think of and nothing changes.


This great post prompts me to add that there is absolutely a learning and experience curve to everything I mentioned in my post. Without doubt! Hindsight really is 20/20, so very often.


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 26, 2010)

Carrie those were some great thoughts, and it's 100% true that it's just human nature to desire to be coupled.

I should mention that in my case it was an on again/off again thing that went on for years. At one point we did not see each other or speak except for one time. During that time I had three boyfriends, and numerous dates and some (safe!) sexual encounters. If only to myself, I had proof I could find somebody else. In some situations, the person is very manipulative and has a charming, magnetic personality that you believe the person is your "soulmate" or that you are madly in love. 

I used to scour the society pages for stories of weddings where the couple had been on and off for years; I was obsessed with stories of couples who had met years ago, each been married/divorced/widowed during the time they knew each other and then they finally got together. Any tale I read about couples breaking up and not seeing each other and then having an unexpected meeting that led them to realize they were *the one* was manna to me. In my case until a few months ago I was so sure we were intended for each other.

Except I was wrong and the person I fell for did not actually exist.


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## LovelyLiz (Jul 26, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> there seems to be a lot of very sad guys on dims. ..._snipped_... *they find it easy to take up a woman's time without intention even when they know she is actually looking*. ..._snipped_... it makes me wonder of some of them are really attracted at all or its just that *they know where to go to get tolerance*. is that why so few of them are even willing to date or be in a relationship? is it really about us or just about them? what are your feelings? *rant over*



The taking up time thing...so true. It doesn't happen for me in person so much - because I will rarely hang out with a guy who I'm looking for something romantic and long-term from, if he's not looking for the same thing from me. But I can be guilty of spending WAY too many hours over a period of months chatting with some guy and holding out irrational hope that somehow our love will traverse the continents (I have a soft spot for Indian men, what can I say), instead of doing things that actually nourish my life - like reading, playing music, writing, calling a friend, etc. And sometimes when I want to cut the chat short, because I want to do something more fulfilling, he'll act all sad and beg me to stay, and in the past I would always give in and waste several more hours. But I'm getting better at drawing boundaries with that.

Regarding your last statement, SuperO, I too have wondered if guys who have a lot of social anxiety or trouble relating to women will feel drawn to us because of stereotypes that we are more understanding, or will not call them out on their f-ed up behavior, or are too desperate to care that they can't function in an emotionally healthy way, etc. 

But I think it's easy to make this assumption about fat women, because the only experiences most of us have of dating is as fat women...so we can blame things on our fatness that may have nothing to do with it. Lots of other women I know, who aren't fat, have guys act like selfish a**holes with them, or are socially awkward. Is there a higher percentage who try to get with the fat chicks? Eh, I dunno. I'll agree we have a lot - but not sure it's significantly more than other women. Hard to say.

ETA: Just read Carrie's insightful post - and agree that the depth of the dating pool does seem to decrease as size increases, and it does build a feeling of "desperation" that can allow for an overlooking of behaviors in men coming out of that desperate feeling that finding *any* man who will come close to caring about you is like a 4-leafed clover. I'm glad some of us are learning not to let that desperation own us, and working to take care for ourselves.


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## Laura2008 (Jul 26, 2010)

Carrie said:


> People of all sizes have a responsibility to themselves to decide what is and isn't acceptable treatment, and to act accordingly. If we allow a guy to treat us shabbily more than once - or even once, in a lot of cases - it's on us as individuals. Never mind that ten women before you allowed him to do it. You can't control that, you can't control them or him; you can only control your own values and behavior. You can't blame it on vague "expectations" that FAs have, or on the community or this board or the internets. Whatever a person's expectations are of you, YOU are the person to fulfill or not fulfill them and set them straight. For those of us who do encounter guys who have expectations of our personalities and behavior based on our body shape/size, do you really want to spend a second of your time talking to him? About anything? To me, this is not a person who is in need of education, this is a person who is a fucking moron, regardless of their IQ. Nobody I *want* to know thinks that way.



I didn't quote your entire post but this particular paragraph is very good. It's up to each of us to decide if this is the way we want to be treated. Relationships are a lot of work. I've been in one for almost 11 years and to be honest it gets harder in *some ways*. It's easy to settle into a routine and allow certain behaviors to slip through. Like Casting Pearls mentioned, it doesn't start off with red flags and warning bells. It's subtle and as women (or maybe it's a human being thing) we think it's something we're doing wrong. The hardest thing is being totally honest with yourself. 

Each and everyone one of these posts is thought provoking. I'll be going back and repping each one of you ladies (oops I reached my max for the day. I'll get the rest of you soon!)


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 26, 2010)

My last boyfriend who I was with for 2 years has a lot of emotional issues. He's not a BHM, but that certainly didn't stop him from laying his issues on me. I've dated guys with emotional issues before, but they've usually become apparent within a few weeks to a month or two, so I end things and move on.

My ex-b/f was better at hiding it. He's a single dad of two young kids, a social worker who is very good at his job, close to his family, and had weathered two awful relationships with two very mixed up women - one of them being his ex-wife. At first, he seemed like a well-rounded person who had been through some bad times and was trying to make the best of it. As our relationship grew and continued, though, the issues started to become apparent.

After about 5 months of dating, he revealed that he suffers from major depression and was taking medication for it. I will say that he kept his depression in check and always kept himself medicated, so I never saw him become imbalanced. But he also suffered from GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) and that often exacerbated things. Whenever he became anxious about an issue, he would constantly talk about it, sometimes calling me 2 or 3 times a day and repeating his anxieties over and over again. I realized that the act of repetition for him was his way of trying to lessen the anxiety.

I became his therapist, the person he constantly called. It was a long-distance relationship (he lives 300 miles north of me), so a lot of our interactions were on the phone. I got so tired of hearing about his issues about his family, his job and other things going on in his life. He barely left any room for me to talk about my issues, I was so overwhelmed with his. He also claims that he has ADHD, which causes impulse control issues. So sometimes when I'd ask him to give me a breather and give me some time to myself, he'd call me anyway, seemingly unable to control his impulse to pick up the phone.

His impulse control issues also lead him to promise a lot of things that never happened in our relationship. For example, both he and his dad are pilots and know how to fly. His dad owns a small bi-plane, and in our first few weeks of dating, the b/f promised that he'd fly down to see me, instead of doing the 6-7 hour drive one way. But his promise to fly down never happened. After about 5 months of irregular dating, I asked him what happened with that promise and that's when he revealed his major depression and told me that the medication he takes is considered to be a psychotropic med by the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), so he actually hadn't been able to renew his pilot's license in over a year. He knew this when he first told me about flying down to see me, but his impulses apparently got the better of him, leading him to promise something he knew he couldn't make a reality. And that was just one of many times he made such promises.

I finally ended things last December, unable to play therapist or deal with his issues any longer. As _LillyBBBW_ wrote, I could see the relationship stagnating and he wasn't growing or changing in positive ways. Neither was I, for that matter, allowing myself to stay in the relationship. And I could see that it had the possibility of becoming toxic, with his constant tendency to impulsively reach out to me and try to pull me back in, and I couldn't allow it to continue.

I've long been aware of my tendency to want to _fix_ things, particularly people. I always feel like "I know better," "I can show you how to do things better." My pedantic streak is wide (among many other wide things about me), and I've long recognized that tendency in myself. That's why I went into education 10 years ago, to find a healthier outlet for that desire. I try not to let it get me into relationships where that becomes the sole focus, the thing that keeps us together. And that's what was happening with the ex-b/f. He was using me up and I was allowing it to continue, thinking that at some point he'd learn to make better choices. I'm glad I finally found the strength to end things and move on before things became more unhealthy.


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## CastingPearls (Jul 26, 2010)

I wonder if as BBWs or as women in general that we analyze and come to-- if not accept our perceived flaws, foibles and imperfections, then at least come to terms with them or are working towards that-- that it attracts the type of person who believes in the stereotypes and thinks we would be much more tolerant of their own quirks or self-professed preferences. And to clarify preferences I'm not referring to liking big boobs, BBWs, or intellectuals, I'm referring to using the word as a very broad term they themselves use to identify things they are afraid less tolerant people would understand.

(sincere apologies and aspirin for extreme run-on sentence)


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 26, 2010)

CastingPearls said:


> I wonder if as BBWs or as women in general that we analyze and come to-- if not accept our perceived flaws, foibles and imperfections, then at least come to terms with them or are working towards that-- that it attracts the type of person who believes in the stereotypes and thinks we would be much more tolerant of their own quirks or self-professed preferences. And to clarify preferences I'm not referring to liking big boobs, BBWs, or intellectuals, I'm referring to using the word as a very broad term they themselves use to identify things they are afraid less tolerant people would understand.
> 
> (sincere apologies and aspirin for extreme run-on sentence)



That's possible, though I've encountered that very few times in my experiences. People like that are usually very easy to spot. It's like the bandit in the striped shirt and black eye-mask. Dead giveaway.  I hate to sound like I'm glossing things over but I find that illness and toxic behavior is not mutually exclusive to FAs or even men. It crosses all barriers and boundaries and can happen to anyone. Maybe the likelyhood of putting up with it from a partner can increase because of cultural or environmental complications but I don't think it makes BBWs targets moreso than doe eyed size 8 blondes. People will say anything to hold on to or control the object of their desire, whoever it is. I was joking not too long ago with another Dimmer about how flabbergasted we were at some common tactics that some men use to lie or manipulate to get what they want. When comparing notes we found the tactics were so common we wondered if there was a special school out there somewhere that teaches men how to do this. 

_[insert obligatory statement about how women are also capable of the same kinds of things]_


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## Sweet Tooth (Jul 26, 2010)

Just picking a few things out here that struck me while reading these posts...

On one hand, I _want_ to be a generally understanding, forgiving person. On the other hand, certain things should just not be tolerated. On one hand, I don't want to be anyone's mama, but on the other hand I can see that sometimes people *don't* know better or just have never put 2+2 together the way someone objective can.

I dunno... I want to be careful not to project my preferences on someone else... but the closer they get to me, the more important it is that I can trust them for what I need as well. If a guy says to me that he believes in open relationships, okay, fine... he can be my friend so long as it stays at that level, but I'm not going to participate either as the primary relationship or any of the additional relationships.

So, is it my responsibility to fix people? No. A lot of stuff is not to be fixed, as it's just a matter of preference.

However, sometimes the most loving thing to do is give someone a reality check, tell them of their assholery, even if it means they stop talking to you. If I see someone destroying their own life or relationships or people I love [including myself], and I don't speak up, then I'm helping them perpetuate the cycle. Sometimes people truly are clueless as to how they come across. If they want to change, they can take my words to heart. If they like living how they live, fine. But it's heartbreaking when you see someone doing the relational equivalent of never brushing their teeth and then wondering why no one ever wants to talk to them at a party, you know?

The one thing I can control is saying, "Hey, if you want to be in this relationship with me, friendship or otherwise, this is something I *must* have from you. If I don't get it, then I can love you to pieces... from a distance." They can choose, then, to get on board or not. Of course, fair game says that they may need things from me that I may not be willing to or cannot give. And I'll have to live with that, too.


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## Carrie (Jul 26, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> *But I think it's easy to make this assumption about fat women, because the only experiences most of us have of dating is as fat women...so we can blame things on our fatness that may have nothing to do with it.* Lots of other women I know, who aren't fat, have guys act like selfish a**holes with them, or are socially awkward. Is there a higher percentage who try to get with the fat chicks? Eh, I dunno. I'll agree we have a lot - but not sure it's significantly more than other women. Hard to say.


YES. The thing about scrutinizing fat people/(F)FA interactions the way we often do around here is I really have to wonder how healthy it is. Does it make us even more distant and disenfranchised from average sized people, when we view the dating world and relationships between us as such a unique experience? I worry about that. It feels like we are granting a great deal of power, emotional and otherwise, to the almighty FA, when really, he's just a dude like any other that finds (some) fat people attractive. He's not a magic bullet for happiness, he's not a puppy that requires training, he's just. a. guy. And we're just women who happen to be fat. Nothing really that newsworthy going on there. 

The first NAAFA convention I went to, I was pretty green in the SA/FA world. I remember sitting there during a fat sex workshop where the topic was oral sex and a few women were saying they didn't care for it because of how vulnerable and exposed it made them feel, and I thought, "That's not specific to fat sex, though, a lot of women feel that way." I have to say, I have the same reaction to a fair amount of the dating/relationship topics we have around here. And that's not to say they're not worthy of discussion, not at all - I just really don't know if we're doing a disservice to ourselves by attributing so much of our lovelife-oriented interactions to teh fatness.


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## Carrie (Jul 26, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Except I was wrong and the person I fell for did not actually exist.


This is the worst. I've been there, too.


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## calauria (Jul 26, 2010)

CastingPearls said:


> THIS
> 
> I devoted 8 years of my life to a man who withheld physical affection and I barely noticed for the first five years because I was beset by tragedy after tragedy, deaths and their fallout, family crisis, work drama, etc. ad nauseum and it wasn't until I got deathly ill and was flat on my back for nearly two years that I woke up as from a dream and said WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON???
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying. Boy, do I understand!! And, I'm so sorry that you have to go through this. But, I'm hear for you if you need a friend and you need to talk. *hugs*


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 26, 2010)

No, I don't think it's killing me because I've always had a very low tolerance for bullshit. That and I'm a fast learner. Years and years ago I dealt with a woman who would tell lies upon lies, was very manipulative (would try to shame me into keeping her company with sob stories about how she loved me so much and couldn't bear to be without me and how she would self harm because she was so unhappy, yada, yada  ). Eventually one day I had enough and I proceeded to rip her a new one - called her on some very hard truths and decided she had to go! Especially before I allowed her to ruin what was good/right with me. I truly felt ill when she was in my life, like she was a major drain on my well being and a complete hinderance in my ability to thrive. 

I have to say, dropping her ass like a bad habit has been the best thing for me. Occasionally she'll try to get back in touch, but I know that's out of desperation and being pathetic and there's not anything I can or want to do for her. So, she's on my permanent ignore list. Works well for me.


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## calauria (Jul 26, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> Power imbalance in a relationship can be a grueling thing to be a part of, and it affects more than just the two involved, if they have children. I grew up watching my father treat my mother as nothing more than a glorified servant. She would sometimes beg him to love her. I hated HER for that. I didnt know any better  to me, she was the weak one, and I despised that weakness. Ive come to understand that she had some very difficult obstacles, not the least of which was no marketable skills and 5 children to raise. But when she did go back to work, and later to school, and later still to a job that paid her very well, she STILL couldnt leave him  not for very long, anyway. Theyve been married and divorced  to each other  three times. That wasnt a lot of fun to experience, growing up. The constant turmoil, upheaval, the refusal on both sides to just cut their losses and move on. I grew up believing that dependence on a man was a loathsome quality. That has both served me well and hindered me, as I have a very difficult time with expressing vulnerability and asking for help. But I still dont understand what allows a person to subjugate him/herself to another. Id rather starve than be dependent. Id rather cry every night, alone, than spend one minute with someone who didnt treat me well. Im not pretending that Im the picture of stellar emotional health  I have a bit too much of the cut off my own nose to spite my face in me, for starters. My two sisters are exactly the same way. My youngest brother is very like our father and, not surprisingly, married a woman who is just like good old mom. His kids get to watch the never-ending cycle of moms dependence and dads emotional cruelty.
> 
> I* dont know what held my mother back from just leaving him for good, after she gained a measurable degree of financial independence, and her children were grown up. He needed her, that was clear. But he didnt respect her, and he didnt love her, and that was also clear. I think that there was a part of her that thrived on the emotional chaos. I often wonder if this is also the case with women who stay with men who clearly do not love or value them. I think that my mother spent her entire life trying , in vain, to make her FATHER love her. She found an emotionally distant man who withheld love and affection in the same unhappy yet predictable pattern that shed established with her father. Not only did she fail at that, she raised 5 children who respected her as little as her husband did. It is what we were taught, in myriad ways, both subtly and overtly.*



This has been my situation, my whole life. Reliving the relationship with my family through other relationships. I know my subconcious believed (but not anymore) the more I do, the more I give, the more love I show for my family or others they will come to love me and accept me, even though they have rejected me countless times.
But now, I'm like, fuck it, fuck it, fuck it! I'm tired! I've been unloved for so long that it doesn't even bother me anymore. Well, it only bothers me a little, but not enough to go through that same emotional hell, anymore. But, I'm pretty sure some other subconcious, emotional fucked up-ness has taken it's place, like will I ever be able to build connections with others, again? With people who want to be with me? The thing is I'm not sure if they are really serious about wanting me to be in their lives. People are tricky. And, I never, ever again want to go through so much emotional hell of not being able to let go and trying to get them to love me, if they are not really serious.

I'm so sorry you had to grow up living through this hell and still are dealing with it effects. *hugs* I know what you are going through.


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## calauria (Jul 26, 2010)

ashmamma84 said:


> No, I don't think it's killing me because I've always had a very low tolerance for bullshit. That and I'm a fast learner. Years and years ago I dealt with a woman who would tell lies upon lies, was very manipulative (would try to shame me into keeping her company with sob stories about how she loved me so much and couldn't bear to be without me and how she would self harm because she was so unhappy, yada, yada  ). Eventually one day I had enough and I proceeded to rip her a new one - called her on some very hard truths and decided she had to go! Especially before I allowed her to ruin what was good/right with me. *I truly felt ill when she was in my life, like she was a major drain on my well being and a complete hinderance in my ability to thrive. *
> I have to say, dropping her ass like a bad habit has been the best thing for me. Occasionally she'll try to get back in touch, but I know that's out of desperation and being pathetic and there's not anything I can or want to do for her. So, she's on my permanent ignore list. Works well for me.



I can relate to this, also. Right now, I feel deathly ill around my family. Like I'm literally ready to be put in the grave. Hopefully, I can hold out until next summer that is when I'm making my big move back home to Florida. And as of now, I just don't have any contact with my sister. She lives right next door, but I'm not trying to have any contact with her. I'm done with her and my nieces and nephews. Which a lot of that is a whole different story.


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## calauria (Jul 26, 2010)

Carrie said:


> This is the worst. I've been there, too.



I've been there millions of times!!! LOL :doh:


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## calauria (Jul 26, 2010)

Carrie said:


> YES. The thing about scrutinizing fat people/(F)FA interactions the way we often do around here is I really have to wonder how healthy it is. Does it make us even more distant and disenfranchised from average sized people, when we view the dating world and relationships between us as such a unique experience? I worry about that. It feels like we are granting a great deal of power, emotional and otherwise, to the almighty FA, when really, he's just a dude like any other that finds (some) fat people attractive. He's not a magic bullet for happiness, he's not a puppy that requires training, he's just. a. guy. And we're just women who happen to be fat. Nothing really that newsworthy going on there.
> 
> The first NAAFA convention I went to, I was pretty green in the SA/FA world. I remember sitting there during a fat sex workshop where the topic was oral sex and a few women were saying they didn't care for it because of how vulnerable and exposed it made them feel, and I thought, "That's not specific to fat sex, though, a lot of women feel that way." I have to say, I have the same reaction to a fair amount of the dating/relationship topics we have around here. And that's not to say they're not worthy of discussion, not at all - I just really don't know if we're doing a disservice to ourselves by attributing so much of our lovelife-oriented interactions to teh fatness.



YOU ARE RIGHT!! Most of these things I was going through with lovers was when I weighed 130 lbs. So, society is truly fucked and telling a damn lie when they say we'll have a better social life when we're thin, because no one treats thin people any better. It all has to do with who we chose to have relationships with, what we chose to deal with. Some people have the ability to chose better relationships and kick bullshit to the curb a lot quicker, doesn't matter what size or what they look like.


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## CastingPearls (Jul 26, 2010)

calauria said:


> I can relate to this, also. Right now, I feel deathly ill around my family. Like I'm literally ready to be put in the grave. Hopefully, I can hold out until next summer that is when I'm making my big move back home to Florida. And as of now, I just don't have any contact with my sister. She lives right next door, but I'm not trying to have any contact with her. I'm done with her and my nieces and nephews. Which a lot of that is a whole different story.


Some members of my family literally make me sick. Sometimes when I absolutely can't avoid them I am sick for days. I tell myself, it's only for a few hours or a day but the toxicity is so horrible that it contaminates everything. I asked one, are you capable of saying one nice thing about or to me and he wouldn't. I was hurt but not surprised; He won't say anything nice about anyone.

Another, an uncle who tried to molest me when I was a child on several occasions --after my mother died he was the only one of her siblings left and I wanted to have some semblance of a familial relationship I asked him if we could let bygones be bygones. He said no. He refused to supposedly forgive me for some imagined slight when I had forgiven him for heinous behavior and turned me away. Good riddance. 

God bless anyone who has good supportive family. Most of the good ones in mine have passed over.


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