# FA/FFA Denial- I DON'T mean the closet



## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

First of all, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I also am not trying to make excuses for the behavior of fat admirers. I am hoping to have a constructive discussion about something that I have been trying to work out in my own head as I read around the other boards here at Dims. 

I know that there are fat admirers who are just callous. But it seems to me that sometimes, some of the posts that pertain to health, confidence and weight loss seem to contain....almost a zealotry. I guess what I mean is, I feel as if the FA/FFA is not really speaking to the fat person, as much as they are speaking to themselves. I always read into those type of posts a certain denial born out of the desire to shape the world into the fat admirer's ideal. I have seen the usual conflicts around here lately and it seems to me that maybe part of the problem stems from the fact that the reality of life for many fat people can rattle a fat admirer's sense of ease with their sexual orientation(or whatever you want to call it). I particularly feel that this is true when it comes to the issues of confidence and the health/weight loss issues. I admit that I have at times in the past read those things and felt a little rattled. And I also admit that, at least in my own head, in the past I have been guilty from time to time of a certain denial. So I am starting this discussion with my own mea culpa. I'm not really sure what my questions are....I guess it's just do you feel as a fat admirer that you sometimes put reality on hold in order to feel less threatened by the challenges that fat people face? Or do you go the other way and wallow in guilt? Do you think there's a balance to be struck that would make it easier to both appreciate BBW/BHM, yet at the same time create a more supportive environment from fat admirers? Is there anything else you want to say about this topic?

Again, this is not to start a flame or blame war. This isn't to make fat admirers feel badly, either. I just always feel that there is something under the surface sometimes when you see a fat admirer who contributes to the boards in a more meaningful way than just "that's hot" but who at the same time seems to almost willfully be ignoring what is being said by the fat people. It's like we want to have the discussions, but only if we can keep the tough stuff out of the conversation. I just wondered if anyone else felt this way, I guess.


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## Tad (Oct 1, 2009)

Really good points (so good to have you back, btw!).

I agree that a lot of it sounds like trying to convince the speaker. Basically I agree with all that you just said. Everything that follows is not to disagree, but to add an additional, but related, option.

Another thing that may be happening too is what I think of as &#8216;defense of identity’ amongst those who cling to the idea of there being only sort of fat admirer or one sort of size acceptance. That is, I think a lot of people arrive at Dimensions (or more broadly the broader size acceptance &#8216;community’) who have not had any other good references for being an FA or for accepting size. So all that they really know on the topic is how they feel, what they have learned, and what they believe. 

I suppose if we were all good statisticians we’d take ourselves as one data point and each other person we meet as an equally important data point. But in general I’d say we don’t, I think most start off assuming that others are like themselves. Unless and until we give up that assumption, others who &#8216;should’ be like ourself but who aren’t are a real danger to our self-image.

So our fresh, naïve, FA arrives at Dimensions—let’s call him or her &#8216;Chris’ for gender ambiguous convenience. Chris has seen a whole culture trash fat people, but to Chris they are the most attractive and wonderful beings on the planet. Chris has done a little bit of research and paid attention to the news, and has found that fat may not be the instant death sentence that it is often portrayed as. And paying attention to others, Chris has noticed a few fat people who are very active and super healthy. From all of that Chris deduces that fat people don’t have to be inactive or unhealthy. What a relief! Chris feels much bad about being attracted to the fat now. Chris develops an attitude that being fat is OK, it is mostly a social bias against it, and that fat people can be just as happy, active, and healthy as thin people. Chris builds an identity in part around having established this deeper level of insight into how the world really works—Chris doesn’t go along with the common herd on this point!

Then Chris finds Dimensions. WOW! A whole web site full of attractive fat people who have already heard the message, and of other FA who obviously feel like Chris does. After all, they all admire fat folk, unlike the broader population, so clearly they are alike. Chris starts off expecting the other FA to like what Chris likes and to share similar views, and for the &#8216;enlightened’ fat folk to be accepting that as well. Then Chris finds that not everyone agrees with Chris’s views. This threatens Chris’s whole view of how the world really works. This other person also claims to be an FA, and doesn’t agree with half of what Chris says! This person claims to be fine with being fat, but denies even more of what Chris believes. 

Chris can now do one of three things: abandon the whole structure of size acceptance and fat admiration that Chris had built up to embrace some other view of it, accept that there are multiple views on these subjects so hold onto his or her existing structure but accept others as valid, or insist that his or her view is the correct one. The former two both involve abandoning that belief in having achieved some greater enlightenment, so are kind of painful to do. By far the easiest one on Chris’s ego is to insist that he or she has it right.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

Tad said:


> Chris can now do one of three things: abandon the whole structure of size acceptance and fat admiration that Chris had built up to embrace some other view of it, accept that there are multiple views on these subjects so hold onto his or her existing structure but accept others as valid, or insist that his or her view is the correct one. The former two both involve abandoning that belief in having achieved some greater enlightenment, so are kind of painful to do. By far the easiest one on Chriss ego is to insist that he or she has it right.



I think this is a really good point. It was sort of what I was trying to say about the threat to our identity. I feel sometimes like FA/FFAs, as they are embracing their identities, swing too far to one extreme. The point about enlightenment is something I see reflected around here a lot. Maybe the real issue is really about FA/FFAs reaching a level of ease with themselves. See, this is why I am always mystified by the arguments about who has it worse and who doesn't understand what, because to me, I think fat admirers and fat people (at least here and I'm talking about the FA/FFAs who aren't just skulking horndogs, of course) are often having parallel experiences. Both sides are trying to find an ease with themselves in a world that doesn't reflect us well. Both sides come here because there is a freedom to be ourselves here, and a chance to bolster our sense of self and self esteem (and I mean that for us FA/FFAs too) and yet, we all really have to get to that place within ourselves first and we can't rely on Dims or anyplace else to completely get us there. The problem is, I think too many people on both sides try that. It seems like the real trick is finding the balance between the support and freedom we can find here and learning how to stand up to the real world, rather than picking fights with each other and being excessively sensitive (again, I am talking about FA/FFAs too) over certain issues.



Also, I wanted to make clear that this is not a topic just for thin/thinner FA/FFAs in my opinion. In fact, it would seem that denial would be even easier to get stuck in if the FA/FFA and his/her partner were both fat. (?)


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 1, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> First of all, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I also am not trying to make excuses for the behavior of fat admirers. I am hoping to have a constructive discussion about something that I have been trying to work out in my own head as I read around the other boards here at Dims.
> 
> I know that there are fat admirers who are just callous. But it seems to me that sometimes, some of the posts that pertain to health, confidence and weight loss seem to contain....almost a zealotry. I guess what I mean is, I feel as if the FA/FFA is not really speaking to the fat person, as much as they are speaking to themselves. I always read into those type of posts a certain denial born out of the desire to shape the world into the fat admirer's ideal. I have seen the usual conflicts around here lately and it seems to me that maybe part of the problem stems from the fact that the reality of life for many fat people can rattle a fat admirer's sense of ease with their sexual orientation(or whatever you want to call it). I particularly feel that this is true when it comes to the issues of confidence and the health/weight loss issues. I admit that I have at times in the past read those things and felt a little rattled. And I also admit that, at least in my own head, in the past I have been guilty from time to time of a certain denial. So I am starting this discussion with my own mea culpa. I'm not really sure what my questions are....I guess it's just do you feel as a fat admirer that you sometimes put reality on hold in order to feel less threatened by the challenges that fat people face? Or do you go the other way and wallow in guilt? Do you think there's a balance to be struck that would make it easier to both appreciate BBW/BHM, yet at the same time create a more supportive environment from fat admirers? Is there anything else you want to say about this topic?
> 
> Again, this is not to start a flame or blame war. This isn't to make fat admirers feel badly, either. I just always feel that there is something under the surface sometimes when you see a fat admirer who contributes to the boards in a more meaningful way than just "that's hot" but who at the same time seems to almost willfully be ignoring what is being said by the fat people. *It's like we want to have the discussions, but only if we can keep the tough stuff out of the conversation.* I just wondered if anyone else felt this way, I guess.



I'm not sure I see it that way so much as trying to keep a fair balance to the discussion. Sometimes it truly is oblivion at play on the part of an FA but a few times it seemed a matter of just an FA who expresses himself poorly at a time when s/he should probably just shut up and let people talk and vent things out. It's very easy for a particuar strain of thought in a discussion to become so prominent that it obscures everything else. If four or more people gather together to begin a chorus on some experience they've had that a lot of fat women share in common it quickly becomes a fat issue and obscures the fact that there are over 53 other fatties here. None of the others have or have had this issue, yet sadly they're not participating in the thread nor are they relevent now. Maybe only in drips and drabs one will say, "Nope, not me," but nobody remembers them. Along comes lowly FA who on some levels may have had some experiences with fat women he was close to. His input may be as valid as anyone else's yet when he opens his mouth he gets called an insensitive leg humper who ignores problems with fat. On a personal level many of the things commonly discussed here by fat women are things that have passed me by completely and I most likely will never have issues with. Genes? A mean streak? I don't know. I do feel a strong sense of wanting to be supportive and respectful of my fat sisters but a few times I have felt an atmosphere of pressure, as if I should put on sack cloth and ashes and take up a lament for myself. This has bugged me a few times but I felt it was inappropriate to grand stand about it so I held my tongue. There are some primative posts here to be sure but I do recall a few where I actually felt bad for someone who was trying to make what seemed to me to be a valid point but it was done in a clumsy manner that was viewed immediatley as an affront to all that represents decency in the world.

And that's where things seem to go awry I suppose. These things affect people so deeply and directly. There's a balancing act between letting someone pour out their soul, yet finding a way to express maybe another way of looking at things that doesn't subtract from the person or add to their torment. Nine times out of ten favor is going to sway towards the injured party looking for a safe place rather than the person trying to pull back the curtain on another point of view. For anyone who isn't fat this will seem unfair. Maybe it is but I think it's a fine line we have to walk.

I swear, I'm using every ounce of energy I have today trying to string together an intelligent train of thought.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> And that's where things seem to go awry I suppose. These things affect people so deeply and directly.



I see what you mean. I think you actually much more eloquently expressed what I was trying to say about the "tough stuff." I didn't mean in terms of what the issues were per se. I get the sense more often than not, that it is because these issues are so personal. And I think from the thin/thinner fat admirer side they can be personal in the sense that they reflect what we fear. For example, a health issue. I have often felt that it is not always insensitivity that leads to some of the stranger F/FA posts about those topics. I think there is a desire of the F/FA (maybe even a hope?) to express a possibility that, to them doesn't seem as dire, even if rational thinking should lead them away from that train of thought. And then both sides fat and fat admirer end up feeling attacked or brushed off or invalidated in some way. Does that make sense? I too am having trouble today getting my thoughts in order.

I also agree with you that sometimes I see posts and I think "oh, no, I know what you're getting at but the way you said it is just going to lead to all hell breaking loose." Like you, I believe in balance (we're both Libras) and I understand that there will always be times, issues and personalities that clash, it just seems to me lately that some of the strains on the community as a whole often seem like they could be avoided if people would take a deep breath and try to hear the other side and not automatically jump to a preconceived set of conclusions. It's almost as if some topics have a script that plays out over and over. 

Thanks for your response. I think you're pretty smart for someone having trouble keeping their thoughts in order today.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 1, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I see what you mean. I think you actually much more eloquently expressed what I was trying to say about the "tough stuff." I didn't mean in terms of what the issues were per se. I get the sense more often than not, that it is because these issues are so personal. And I think from the thin/thinner fat admirer side they can be personal in the sense that they reflect what we fear. For example, a health issue. I have often felt that it is not always insensitivity that leads to some of the stranger F/FA posts about those topics. I think there is a desire of the F/FA (maybe even a hope?) to express a possibility that, to them doesn't seem as dire, even if rational thinking should lead them away from that train of thought. And then both sides fat and fat admirer end up feeling attacked or brushed off or invalidated in some way. Does that make sense? I too am having trouble today getting my thoughts in order.
> 
> I also agree with you that sometimes I see posts and I think "oh, no, I know what you're getting at but the way you said it is just going to lead to all hell breaking loose." Like you, I believe in balance (we're both Libras) and I understand that there will always be times, issues and personalities that clash, it just seems to me lately that some of the strains on the community as a whole often seem like they could be avoided if people would take a deep breath and try to hear the other side and not automatically jump to a preconceived set of conclusions. It's almost as if some topics have a script that plays out over and over.
> 
> Thanks for your response. I think you're pretty smart for someone having trouble keeping their thoughts in order today.



A few years ago I was hospitalized with a pulmanary emboli and was diagnosed with a cerebral spinal disorder. I nearly had a nervous breakdown after because I felt so cursed and fearful. Fast forward 15 years and I'm somewhat ambivalent about it. I'm taking care of it with meds which is simple enough. My life hasn't missed a beat really save for the mental meltdown I had in the beginning that nearly crushed me. Maybe once or twice I've come upon someone who is dealing with the same issue and being run through the same spin cycle. I want to come along side them and say, "Everything is going to be ok. Things are not as horrible as they seem, you can still have 'Happily Ever After.'" Being that I've been there they may or may not look to that with some small sense of assurance or hope. Coming from an FA though? A _SKINNY_ FA? To the person grappling it really can be seen as denial in favor of a love of fat even though it is coming from the same place my advice came from and possibly the same knowledge too albeit second hand. In some cases I can see someone coming from that angle in a reply posted here but I tell you, 15 years ago if an FA tried to brush off my fears like I'm overreacting I would have flogged him raw and screaming. Or at least I would never have spoken to him again, even now that I'm forced to admit that he was right all along. I still would have felt slighted and my feelings unsupported then because support is often seen as different things to different people. What was given at the time wasn't what I needed and it can be hard to understand this for a person who wants to offer something they view as valuable.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> A few years ago I was hospitalized with a pulmanary emboli and was diagnosed with a cerebral spinal disorder. I nearly had a nervous breakdown after because I felt so cursed and fearful. Fast forward 15 years and I'm somewhat ambivalent about it. I'm taking care of it with meds which is simple enough. My life hasn't missed a beat really save for the mental meltdown I had in the beginning that nearly crushed me. Maybe once or twice I've come upon someone who is dealing with the same issue and being run through the same spin cycle. I want to come along side them and say, "Everything is going to be ok. Things are not as horrible as they seem, you can still have 'Happily Ever After.'" Being that I've been there they may or may not look to that with some small sense of assurance or hope. Coming from an FA though? A _SKINNY_ FA? To the person grappling it really can be seen as denial in favor of a love of fat even though it is coming from the same place my advice came from and possibly the same knowledge too albeit second hand. In some cases I can see someone coming from that angle in a reply posted here but I tell you, 15 years ago if an FA tried to brush off my fears like I'm overreacting I would have flogged him raw and screaming. Or at least I would never have spoken to him again, even now that I'm forced to admit that he was right all along. I still would have felt slighted and my feelings unsupported then because support is often seen as different things to different people. What was given at the time wasn't what I needed and it can be hard to understand this for a person who wants to offer something they view as valuable.



That is why I put this as an issue on the F/FA board, because I DO think that in terms of issues like health, even if we think we have something supportive to say.....it's usually more supportive to be quiet. Not that I mean this as a plea for F/FAs to shut up or anything, that's not my point. I just know that there are topics where, regardless of what I may think, I would never, ever jump in with my two cents. It doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about....it just means I don't know it from the fat person's experience (I guess that's the best way to phrase it). When I see posts where an FA is trying to offer advice, or encouragement and it goes awry, I often feel that the solidarity is sincere, but there's no comprehension on that FA's part that it's just not the same thing as support from another BBW or BHM. That the support needed is not the sort that an F/FA can give. (Unless, of course, they had the exact same medical condition and weight was not part of the issue in any way). 

Also (not to stir the pot or anything amongst FAs and FFAs) but I often feel as a woman who is not fat, but is still a woman, that I read half of these threads and my head wants to explode. The fat admirer side of me can understand what the intention was and may even agree completely with the male FA, but the female side of me can't grasp what it is that the male FA in question isn't understanding about boundaries. Again, I often think it comes from a sincere place, it just mystifies me sometimes. The thing around here that I often find the strangest is that there are many posts where someone speaks about their wife or girlfriend having gone through something and they act as if it has happened to them. As if they know first hand what that feels like. Which they can't. I don't mean that they shouldn't offer support in a "I know you're scared, I saw my wife go through it" type of way. I don't mean those type of posts. I mean the ones that speak with authority about alternatives to weight loss or some other issue. The only one off the top of my head I can think of that isn't inflammatory is I once saw an FA mention his girlfriend was athletic and wanted to lose some weight due to back pain or something and another FA started talking about more supportive sports bras. And I remember thinking that I knew the FA was trying to be helpful, but the idea, for me as an athletic female, of a man talking about simple garment issues when most likely the pain impacted her doing something she really loved doing.....it just amazed me a bit. I don't know. Again, I'm NOT trying to start a male/female thing here. I know lots of male FAs would have read that post the same way I did. I have also seen some insensitive stuff on the BHM/FFA board from FFAs too. I think it's something all fat admirers need to think about more often. 

OK, I got off topic in my own post, but I'm really just sort of thinking this issue through. It often confuses me. Not hard to do, admittedly.


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## chicken legs (Oct 1, 2009)

i feel like im on the tail end of a very heated discussion...so can someone clue me in because i dont have the time to go through the boards...and this is totally hitting my curious button....does it have something to do with Melian's post in the BHM/FFA forum?


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## Tad (Oct 1, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I don't mean that they shouldn't offer support in a "I know you're scared, I saw my wife go through it" type of way. I don't mean those type of posts. I mean the ones that speak with authority about alternatives to weight loss or some other issue.



Well, recall that as a rule of thumb, when a guy reads "I have a problem...." he assumes that the point of mentioning it is that you want solutions offered. Or as one friend of mine puts it, that you are being transactional, that you are trying to do something around the topic. So to "just" offer support seems wishy-washy, something you'd do only if you had nothing useful to say but felt obliged to say something.

This is one of *THE* classic male/female communication issues. I can't speak for other guys, but even being aware of it, I find it really, really, hard to respond with support rather than suggestions in these situations. I don't know now much is nature and how much is nurture, but it tends to be a really natural reaction for most guys that I know.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

chicken legs said:


> i feel like im on the tail end of a very heated discussion...so can someone clue me in because i dont have the time to go through the boards...and this is totally hitting my curious button....does it have something to do with Melian's post in the BHM/FFA forum?



That's not what inspired me to start this thread. It was actually on the Main Boards in the "I'm Real" thread I saw someone bring up a point, which I have seen before, about whether or not size acceptance/self acceptance and fat admiration can really peacefully coexist. The thread in question meandered through a lot of topics, but that was one of the places it landed. I also was just perusing some other threads and saw references to FAs butting in on the BBW board and vice versa and I guess it just got me thinking. I wasn't directly addressing any particular incident. I've seen this idea of fat admiration and size acceptance having trouble coexisting on more than one occasion here. And I often see posts that veer off in that supportive but not at all understanding direction. The post I referenced about the sports bra came from WAY back, like over a year ago and I don't remember what thread. I was just putting all of my experiences over time here together in my head. This was also an issue I touched on once several months ago in a thread asking if certain pictures were detrimental to size acceptance. That thread also meandered to a different place and I ended up saying that I thought a lot of F/FA cluelessness stemmed from our desire to have our sexuality validated and that could seem risky in the face of some of the challenges fat people face. 

That was a convoluted answer, but the truth.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 1, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> That's not what inspired me to start this thread. It was actually on the Main Boards in the "I'm Real" thread I saw someone bring up a point, which I have seen before, about whether or not size acceptance/self acceptance and fat admiration can really peacefully coexist. The thread in question meandered through a lot of topics, but that was one of the places it landed. I also was just perusing some other threads and saw references to FAs butting in on the BBW board and vice versa and I guess it just got me thinking. I wasn't directly addressing any particular incident. I've seen this idea of fat admiration and size acceptance having trouble coexisting on more than one occasion here. And I often see posts that veer off in that supportive but not at all understanding direction. The post I referenced about the sports bra came from WAY back, like over a year ago and I don't remember what thread. I was just putting all of my experiences over time here together in my head. This was also an issue I touched on once several months ago in a thread asking if certain pictures were detrimental to size acceptance. That thread also meandered to a different place and I ended up saying that I thought a lot of F/FA cluelessness stemmed from our desire to have our sexuality validated and that could seem risky in the face of some of the challenges fat people face.
> 
> That was a convoluted answer, but the truth.



Yes I was pretty much referencing the same things. I haven't seen Melian's post though. Am I missing a fun opportunity to give her a hard time? Now I have to go look for it.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 1, 2009)

Tad said:


> Well, recall that as a rule of thumb, when a guy reads "I have a problem...." he assumes that the point of mentioning it is that you want solutions offered. Or as one friend of mine puts it, that you are being transactional, that you are trying to do something around the topic. So to "just" offer support seems wishy-washy, something you'd do only if you had nothing useful to say but felt obliged to say something.
> 
> This is one of *THE* classic male/female communication issues. I can't speak for other guys, but even being aware of it, I find it really, really, hard to respond with support rather than suggestions in these situations. I don't know now much is nature and how much is nurture, but it tends to be a really natural reaction for most guys that I know.



I experienced this very thing with a guy I've been corresponding with. I was pouring out my soul about a harrowing situation I encountered where I had to make a decision that I was not comfortable making. The situation is still pretty much unresolved and I'm treding carefully trying to let things run their course till a solution can be siezed upon. Anyway I'm a little uncomfortable in that corner but it's a necessary evil for now. After giving this account he responded with some canned counsel any person over the age of 85 would blurt out in an instant, like I was a child. It came off as impassive and trite, though I knew on some level that was not the message he was trying to convey. It took a day for me to respond because I was so annoyed. I'm glad I waited, I think what we had in that situation was exactly what you've mentioned Tad. I was seeing so much red at the time I nearly missed it and let him have it.


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## Ben from England (Oct 1, 2009)

Cool thread.

Comments or attitudes from FA's that spur the notion of fat being anything other than a good thing reek of over compensation to me. Like you said, they are more speaking to themselves, because acknowledging some of the harder truths can lead to uncomfortable reflections. The example you gave about the guy suggesting different clothing, whilst certainly insensitive, seems more like cognitive dissonance than anything else. The thought process of that person ends up in a different place as a self defence mechanism. The idea that clothing is the problem is far more comfortable than having to acknowledge that the persons size, something they love, is causing them misery to any degree. 

As a veteran wallower myself, I see where you're coming from in regards to the idea that as FA's we are somewhat doomed to straddle the line between guilt and denial, but I think it's a very glass half empty perception of our lot in life. 

Fo what it's worth, in recent months I have found a measure of peace in regard to my FA-ness by taking the burden of my partners well-being off of my own shoulders. Whilst locked in the millionth endless conversation about the guilt I felt, my girlfriend sighed deeply and said something along the lines of 'How about you trust in my ability to look out for myself and know what's best for me. It's patronizing and self-centered that you talk about me as though I have no will of my own. I'm an adult and I know what I want. Enough with this shit. Lets talk about what dog we are going to get? I like spaniels...' then we talked about dogs for an hour instead of guilt. It was way more enjoyable. 

Something about that clicked and I've been pretty chilled about the whole thing since. Trusting that the people we are attracted to are adults who make their own choices is as important as questioning our own actions. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking the hard questions of yourself, but dwelling forever is not the answer either. Talking about dogs is way more fun.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

Tad said:


> Well, recall that as a rule of thumb, when a guy reads "I have a problem...." he assumes that the point of mentioning it is that you want solutions offered. Or as one friend of mine puts it, that you are being transactional, that you are trying to do something around the topic. So to "just" offer support seems wishy-washy, something you'd do only if you had nothing useful to say but felt obliged to say something.
> 
> This is one of *THE* classic male/female communication issues. I can't speak for other guys, but even being aware of it, I find it really, really, hard to respond with support rather than suggestions in these situations. I don't know now much is nature and how much is nurture, but it tends to be a really natural reaction for most guys that I know.



You know what's funny, though? I know it is a more traditionally male trait, but my mother is actually by her own admission "a fixer." Not once in my life has she ever offered support, it's always what can be done. And my father is the same way. So, I guess that's why I sometimes don't understand why even if you (the general you) don't feel it......you can't recognize the pattern. I know it can be frustrating and believe me, I was reared entirely in a fix it environment, but I still get that not everyone was. I think with things like this a type of cognitive therapy has to come into play. I completely understand it can be foreign for each side. I guess I just am always amazed that people of both genders, who know this is an issue, can't step back and say "wait a minute, this didn't work the last 1000 times, maybe a different approach, or silence."  And Tad, I am by no means asking you to be the voice of male FAs(as you know, I see you as one of the ones who does a very good job at seeing other people's sides of things), I wasn't even trying to turn this into a male /female thing. I think a lot of the problems happen with FFAs too. I have seen that lack of empathy on that board in the past. I have seen excessive objectification on that board in the past. And I love my FFA sisters, don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to point out that there is almost the exact communication/understanding issue across fat people/fat admirer lines here as there is with the man/woman thing. Then, when talking about a BBW/Male FA dynamic, it can get even more complicated. That's just how it seems to me anyway.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

Ben from England said:


> As a veteran wallower myself, I see where you're coming from in regards to the idea that as FA's we are somewhat doomed to straddle the line between guilt and denial, but I think it's a very glass half empty perception of our lot in life.
> 
> Whilst locked in the millionth endless conversation about the guilt I felt, my girlfriend sighed deeply and said something along the lines of 'How about you trust in my ability to look out for myself and know what's best for me. It's patronizing and self-centered that you talk about me as though I have no will of my own. I'm an adult and I know what I want.



I agree completely that we don't have to be stuck with only guilt and denial! That's one of the reasons I started the thread actually. You know I have wallowed too. But I think we as FA/FFAs often take an extreme approach one way or the other. I don't think that approach is right, though. I think there has to be a middle ground that we all have to reach. I think sometimes in reaching it, we end up going through the thought processes that cause the "overzealous denial" posts. And those are the things that seem to cause trouble on the boards as a whole. I think it is perfectly possible, and should be the goal of all fat admirers, to be at ease with all of it. I think many here are. I was noticing a trend in all of the posts that seem to tread the supportive/vaguely insensitive line. 

Oh, and I kept the quote by your girlfriend because she is very wise and you are very wise to listen to her and I think all of us fat admirers would be wise to do the same.


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## Carrie (Oct 1, 2009)

Ben from England said:


> 'How about you trust in my ability to look out for myself and know what's best for me. It's patronizing and self-centered that you talk about me as though I have no will of my own. I'm an adult and I know what I want. Enough with this shit. Lets talk about what dog we are going to get? I like spaniels...'


This quote bears repeating, in the hopes that it will sink into the psyche of more well-meaning FAs. I remember the FA guilt thread, and several of us fatties expressed this sentiment exactly. The thread was moderately frustrating, because all of the BBW posts expressing the same thing seemed to get overlooked by the FAs, in their haste to talk more about the guilt. I'm very glad it sunk in for you, Ben (and bravo for her saying it!!), and I hope it will sink in for other FAs/FFAs reading, too. 

Sorry for the interrupt, Dr. P, but I got all excited and had to say something.  

This thread topic is great; I'm reading with much interest.


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## Jon Blaze (Oct 1, 2009)

Usually I go about things on a case-by-case basis. I try not to act as if I know what someone has gone through.

One of the best examples is a friend of mine who I found from another decided to lose some weight. For me it wasn't the action but the motivation that I was interested in. After finding out the whole story from the first friend, I just wished her luck because I honestly couldn't relate. I mean, I have joint issues now, but the only time where I've had worse joints/mobility was the time I came back from a camp and I was underweight _for me_. 

I didn't say anything not only because I know I couldn't relate, but I felt no real need. Everyone and the size that they are can have all sorts of personal issues both positive and negative. Things are always different for people, and I don't expect x to "Work" for everyone.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

Carrie said:


> This quote bears repeating, in the hopes that it will sink into the psyche of more well-meaning FAs. I remember the FA guilt thread, and several of us fatties expressed this sentiment exactly. The thread was moderately frustrating, because all of the BBW posts expressing the same thing seemed to get overlooked by the FAs, in their haste to talk more about the guilt. I'm very glad it sunk in for you, Ben (and bravo for her saying it!!), and I hope it will sink in for other FAs/FFAs reading, too.
> 
> Sorry for the interrupt, Dr. P, but I got all excited and had to say something.
> 
> This thread topic is great; I'm reading with much interest.



Oh, I wanted input from everyone! In fact, your post and the quote by Ben's girlfriend are the types of things that I think get overlooked and lead to the whole F/FA guilt/denial conundrum. (Yes, I just used that word.) I do realize that a lot of the times, in seeking to be supportive or dealing with our own feelings as fat admirers we do come off really condescending without meaning to at all. I think that's where a lot of the disjointed communication comes from. We get so caught up in our own guilt or other feelings that we almost forget that the object of our affection has lived their life just fine before us and will do so with or without us. 

I wanted to put this thread here because I honestly think it becomes too easy when speaking about miscommunication to imply that it is a simple dynamic of fat person sensitivity/lack of confidence vs. FA desire. I have always really thought what was going on was FA sensitivity vs. Fat person sensitivity about particular topics and experiences. Does that make sense? In general I think everyone tries to come to various discussions with the best of intentions, but there can be a very paternalistic (for lack of a better word) attitude sometimes from us. I mean that for both genders of fat admirers. And I really think part of it is some deep seated FA guilt and denial. A fear of having our fantasy world intruded upon and I don't mean in terms of just sex, either. I think most F/FAs would love to believe that whatever size partner they find attractive will always be perfectly happy and healthy and trouble free as long as fat admirers are there to appreciate. As if the reality of society or even at times a person's health doesn't exist because we don't want it to. But my point here is that I don't think it's just because fat admirers want to be able to have sexual fantasies and don't want to hear about the "pesky problems." I think it stems from something inside of us fat admirers that functions as a defense mechanism for those who aren't completely at ease with themselves yet. I guess I wanted to talk about the denial, but felt we had to stop denying that the denial is even there.  But I definitely want to hear all input.


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## Mini (Oct 1, 2009)

The aforementioned example with the sports bra seems to me a dude who's well-meaning but FUCKING STUPID. I am, however, perhaps too quick to assume malice and idiocy when simple aloofity - screw you, it's a word - fits better. I never considered that men and women offer support in different ways ("support" is, to me, a rather nebulous concept to begin with) and I also never considered that it could by genuine instead of willful ignorance. 

Yeah, imagine that, I'm quick to think the worst of people. 

I dunno, it's an interesting thread and one which I'm happy to follow.


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## StarWitness (Oct 1, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I just know that there are topics where, regardless of what I may think, I would never, ever jump in with my two cents. It doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about....it just means I don't know it from the fat person's experience (I guess that's the best way to phrase it). When I see posts where an FA is trying to offer advice, or encouragement and it goes awry, I often feel that the solidarity is sincere, but there's no comprehension on that FA's part that it's just not the same thing as support from another BBW or BHM. That the support needed is not the sort that an F/FA can give.



That's a major point of being an ally to any sort of group: realizing that sometimes the best course of action is listening, because it's not about you. 

I've been on both sides, in various situations, and it's very frustrating. As an ally, you feel like you want to help out, but you don't know what the best course of action is, and passively observing doesn't feel like enough. But, as a member of the group seeking allies, sometimes that input can indeed be condescending, especially when it's coming from someone from a privileged group that usually gets the lion's share of power/attention/visibility, and it just seems to reinforce the idea that the opinion/support of the privileged group is essential. Which reinforces the inequalities that we were trying to dismantle in the first place.

Maybe that's reducing people to their labels, but sometimes you do have to be cognizant of those labels, because they do affect how we interact with each other.




Dr. P Marshall said:


> But my point here is that I don't think it's just because fat admirers want to be able to have sexual fantasies and don't want to hear about the "pesky problems." I think it stems from something inside of us fat admirers that functions as a defense mechanism for those who aren't completely at ease with themselves yet.



I totally agree with the point about accepting that the fat person you're admiring's fatness isn't dependent upon your admiration (and if it is? hawt). I don't know that I necessarily agree with the idea of FA guilt as a defense mechanism... I can see how there might be some vestigal "fat = bad" feelings that manifest as guilt regarding one's orientation, but I feel like it's more complex than that. While I think we can all agree that there's nothing inherently wrong or evil about being fat, it is something that can have negative side effects. When you care for someone, you don't want them to suffer-- but when an aspect of them that you're really into is also a (potential) cause of unhappiness? Of course you're going to feel guilty about that.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 1, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I don't know that I necessarily agree with the idea of FA guilt as a defense mechanism...



I don't mean that FA guilt is the defense mechanism. What I meant was that the posts that gloss over the realities of a fat person's problems are used as a defense mechanism against the FA guilt. In other words, it's easier for the FA to come to believe that the problem is, let's say, a lack of confidence on the part of a BBW or BHM that is the problem, rather than face the reality that outside of Dimensions and the FA's perceptions, the world can in fact be difficult or hostile for a fat person. I hope I got it right that time.  In my head it makes more sense. Bear with me, I'm an FFA after all and we don't always express ourselves well. (j/k)


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## Fascinita (Oct 1, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Both sides are trying to find an ease with themselves in a world that doesn't reflect us well. Both sides come here because there is a freedom to be ourselves here, and a chance to bolster our sense of self and self esteem (and I mean that for us FA/FFAs too) and yet, we all really have to get to that place within ourselves first and we can't rely on Dims or anyplace else to completely get us there.



What an excellent thread.

I was recently having a discussion with an FA about why I think fatphobia works so well to keep fat people in "their place": fat people have not traditionally understood themselves as having anything essential to their being human that's related to fat (where fat truly is essential for survival, and so in a way we might understand that everyone is "fat" to some degree, but that's an argument for another day), so it's been too easy for discourses to build up around the idea that "if you can just lose the fat, you can be normal." "Brown" people can't lost the brown, and women can't lose the "womanhood" (none of this is absolutely true, but it's part of how people in the West understand themselves and organize politically), but it's always "possible" to lose the fat--or so we're told.

So that if we could, as fat people, just come to accept our own fat as part of what makes us "us," we could regain our power, individually and maybe even as a group.

Part of what draws us together here, I believe, is the desire to regain our power politically--not in terms of politics, NB; what I mean is more like "the power of the individual in relationship to the polis." And I think that it's essential for fat people and their supporters to actually, well, support (damn!) one another politically. While there is danger and strife and misunderstanding and oppression and denigration in the world, we seek the support and understanding of others like us so that we may each claim our place in the sun. We draw sustenance from communities For better or worse, this seems to be how we in the West (maybe universally) negotiate co-existence with millions of others.

So it's interesting to me that when we enter a community like this, the internal politics are always sort of left unattended, and often end up replicating the very politics of power and oppression that pushed us together in the first place.

In other words, if we want any kind of harmony, I think we have to be make an effort to be thoughtful in how we relate to one another, at the very least to be willing to listen to one another.

Too often, there have been attempts in our own community to silence the voices of those who've insisted that their experiences can't be reduced to rainbows and lollipops. Fortunately, those voices seem tireless. I just would rather it was not such a fight, that our community were less threatened by the idea of tackling "difficult" stuff (that has the potential to be positive, if we were courageous enough to work on it together, instead of turning our backs in fear). If we could do that, we'd be *really* going against the grain, really making lemonade out of lemons, creating our own reality and exercising our own agency to the fullest as political entities. And isn't that what we're after, anyway?

Just IMO.


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## chicken legs (Oct 2, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> ...... part of the problem stems from the fact that the reality of life for many fat people can rattle a fat admirer's sense of ease with their sexual orientation(or whatever you want to call it). I particularly feel that this is true when it comes to the issues of confidence and the health/weight loss issues. I admit that I have at times in the past read those things and felt a little rattled. And I also admit that, at least in my own head, in the past I have been guilty from time to time of a certain denial. So I am starting this discussion with my own mea culpa. I'm not really sure what my questions are....I guess it's just do you feel as a fat admirer that you sometimes put reality on hold in order to feel less threatened by the challenges that fat people face? Or do you go the other way and wallow in guilt? Do you think there's a balance to be struck that would make it easier to both appreciate BBW/BHM, yet at the same time create a more supportive environment from fat admirers? Is there anything else you want to say about this topic?



Having five older brothers who really didnt start seeing women as people until they hit their forties may have made me a bit insensitive but...Eyecandy is eyecandy. I happen to be a FFA and my eyecandy is huge juicy people. However, being the youngest in a large family and having older parents has taught me to be accepting of the changes the body goes through during life, and i understand that when it comes to the person i choose to share my life with....their body is going to change. Hell...even personalities change according to life situations. The question is do you really love that person or are you just enjoying the view?

Everyones body ..as they get older, have accidents, or get ill...is going to have problems. It doesnt matter if they are fat, skinny, or in peak physical condition.. the body doesnt last and sometimes neither does the spirit. So i just say enjoy them (friends, family, loved ones, objects of desire) for as long as you can and just cherish the moments you get to enjoy together.


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## escapist (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken legs said:


> Having five older brothers who really didnt start seeing women as people until they hit their forties may have made me a bit insensitive but...Eyecandy is eyecandy. I happen to be a FFA and my eyecandy is huge juicy people. However, being the youngest in a large family and having older parents has taught me to be accepting of the changes the body goes through during life, and i understand that when it comes to the person i choose to share my life with....their body is going to change. Hell...even personalities change according to life situations. The question is do you really love that person or are you just enjoying the view?
> 
> Everyones body ..as they get older, have accidents, or get ill...is going to have problems. It doesnt matter if they are fat, skinny, or in peak physical condition.. the body doesnt last and sometimes neither does the spirit. So i just say enjoy them (friends, family, loved ones, objects of desire) for as long as you can and just cherish the moments you get to enjoy together.



How Zen! :bow: You sound like me....thats HOT! :wubu: :happy:


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 2, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Too often, there have been attempts in our own community to silence the voices of those who've insisted that their experiences can't be reduced to rainbows and lollipops. Fortunately, those voices seem tireless. I just would rather it was not such a fight, that our community were less threatened by the idea of tackling "difficult" stuff (that has the potential to be positive, if we were courageous enough to work on it together, instead of turning our backs in fear). If we could do that, we'd be *really* going against the grain, really making lemonade out of lemons, creating our own reality and exercising our own agency to the fullest as political entities. And isn't that what we're after, anyway?
> 
> Just IMO.



I'm actually referencing your whole post, but I didn't want a huge quote.  I often suspect that part of the problem, here anyway, is that both sides view fat as "their struggle." I think fat admirers often identify with size acceptance in a very personal sense too, even if it logically seems that we should see ourselves more in the ally role. But for us there are issues not only of society viewing us for our attractions, but also the desire for the world to be better for the objects of our affection and that's I think where some of the paternalism can come into play. There is a hurt on the part of the F/FAs when the people they care about aren't treated the way they wish they would be or feel they should be and then, realizing there's nothing at the moment that they can "do" (I'm thinking about Tad's point about men and fixing) they take up the cause as a very personal one and see their role as protector. At least that's the sense I sometimes get from some of the posts that I read. I'm not saying it's right. I just get that sense.

Also, I think that the desire to silence those who speak the truth of their experiences goes back to the denial/cognitive dissonance that has been brought up earlier in the thread. 

But I think the reason that the fat admirers are so adamant about their stance (whatever that may be) is that there is a personal connection to size acceptance that is felt more deeply than, say, being an ally in a political movement that focused on human rights. It's because this issue impacts people we love and our relationships and how we live our lives with our significant others too. Again, I am NOT saying that gives anyone the right to be clumsy about that alliance and it certainly gives no one the right to silence anybody. I am just explaining what I see when I read those types of posts. I think you're right about HOW it all plays out. I just think there's something more complex going on with some of the fat admirers than simply wanting the other side to be quiet and be pretty. (For lack of a better phrase.) I agree it plays out in the same awful power and oppression struggle, I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm just throwing out my theories as to why I think it happens sometimes. Not making any excuses for anyone though.

I also wish more of the tough issues were thrown out in the open here, but as Lilly pointed out, they are often such emotional minefields, that I think most people are just afraid of all hell breaking loose. 



chicken legs said:


> Having five older brothers who really didnt start seeing women as people until they hit their forties may have made me a bit insensitive but...Eyecandy is eyecandy. I happen to be a FFA and my eyecandy is huge juicy people.



I don't think too many people here have a real problem with us fat admirers enjoying the eye candy. I think the problem becomes that some fat admirers aren't good at knowing when to understand the issues versus expressing the appreciation. I mean, yeah, a picture thread, I'm going to post objectifying comments, we all will. But I have seen instances on the boards where a BBW or BHM (mostly it happens to BBWs) is openly expressing a lack of confidence at a certain time or with a certain issue, or discussing a health issue and they get a sort of "just hold your head up and be confident. Nothing is sexier than a confident BBW." And while that is true and nice to hear in some contexts, it might not be what she wants to hear when she's lamenting job discrimination, or having joint pain or any other serious thing. I think that's more the issue. Not the objectification when it's appropriate. Also, there are the "not so good guys/gals" who will actually be so callous as to post "that's hot" when someone is discussing a health problem or something embarrassing happening. And I don't mean on the Weight Board. Even though those posts get edited, it's still out there, it's been seen. So I can understand how sometimes it may seem like there aren't many of the good guys/gals out there sometimes. Then, if a well meaning, good guy oversteps his boundaries and offers advice about being healthy without losing weight to someone who needs to lose weight for any reason......it can probably make it seem that we really do all have no concept of empathy or even comprehension. But to be clear, I was NOT criticizing objectification. I'm all for it in the right context...which is when the BBW or BHM has made it clear that's what they want (pictures, etc).


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## chicken legs (Oct 2, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I don't think too many people here have a real problem with us fat admirers enjoying the eye candy. I think the problem becomes that some fat admirers aren't good at knowing when to understand the issues versus expressing the appreciation. I mean, yeah, a picture thread, I'm going to post objectifying comments, we all will. But I have seen instances on the boards where a BBW or BHM (mostly it happens to BBWs) is openly expressing a lack of confidence at a certain time or with a certain issue, or discussing a health issue and they get a sort of "just hold your head up and be confident. Nothing is sexier than a confident BBW." And while that is true and nice to hear in some contexts, it might not be what she wants to hear when she's lamenting job discrimination, or having joint pain or any other serious thing. I think that's more the issue. Not the objectification when it's appropriate. Also, there are the "not so good guys/gals" who will actually be so callous as to post "that's hot" when someone is discussing a health problem or something embarrassing happening. And I don't mean on the Weight Board. Even though those posts get edited, it's still out there, it's been seen. So I can understand how sometimes it may seem like there aren't many of the good guys/gals out there sometimes. Then, if a well meaning, good guy oversteps his boundaries and offers advice about being healthy without losing weight to someone who needs to lose weight for any reason......it can probably make it seem that we really do all have no concept of empathy or even comprehension. But to be clear, I was NOT criticizing objectification. I'm all for it in the right context...which is when the BBW or BHM has made it clear that's what they want (pictures, etc).



Yeah basically my point was there is a time and place for things. However, acting like Larry the Cable guy while someone is expressing their heart felt concerns is not cool. My post was just my general view on all relationships.

Its funny (ironic) but when I mention things that are usually only experienced by multicultural people, like myself, to Escapist...he just tries to understand. Likewise, I understand that I usually have to give a more detailed explanation because he really doesnt have a clue ...as i dont have a clue to being a supersized person. Open communication is the key to understanding.


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 2, 2009)

Ben from England said:


> Cool thread.
> 
> Comments or attitudes from FA's that spur the notion of fat being anything other than a good thing reek of over compensation to me. Like you said, they are more speaking to themselves, because acknowledging some of the harder truths can lead to uncomfortable reflections. The example you gave about the guy suggesting different clothing, whilst certainly insensitive, seems more like cognitive dissonance than anything else. The thought process of that person ends up in a different place as a self defence mechanism. The idea that clothing is the problem is far more comfortable than having to acknowledge that the persons size, something they love, is causing them misery to any degree.
> 
> ...



You know Ben I agree completely with the bolded statements here but what about when our mate can't catch her breath, is at risk of stroke or can barely walk without pain? It's all cupcakes and puppy dogs until the bill comes due. I'm old enough, as are my recent partners, to be dealing with those things. If I support or condone a dangerous choice I live with those consequences _almost_ as much as she does. Every FA has to resolve what he can live with. Some do it sooner than others. Some put it off until it's too late.  If my current pleasure somehow exacerbates her future pain how much can I really enjoy it? No easy answer in my experience. 

Good inquiry though, Dr. P! :bow:


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## chicken legs (Oct 3, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> You know Ben I agree completely with the bolded statements here but what about when our mate can't catch her breath, is at risk of stroke or can barely walk without pain? It's all cupcakes and puppy dogs until the bill comes due. I'm old enough, as are my recent partners, to be dealing with those things. If I support or condone a dangerous choice I live with those consequences _almost_ as much as she does. Every FA has to resolve what he can live with. Some do it sooner than others. Some put it off until it's too late.  If my current pleasure somehow exacerbates her future pain how much can I really enjoy it? No easy answer in my experience.
> 
> Good inquiry though, Dr. P! :bow:




ok I'm now starting to get a better understanding of what you guys are talking about. When it comes to the extremes of someones behavior, I dont hesitate to express my concern and draw a line. I dont care if its eating, snorting coke, sex, emotional outburts, overworking, etc. If someone is on the downward spiral, I express my concern. If they blow off my feeling on the situation...then fuck them...because I have better things to do than watch someone destroy themselves.

I have been called a "ice queen" or bitch but hey.. at least I'm honest with myself and them. I have a very dark side that I keep in check...so I have to be straight up with people in order to avoid situations that would bring it out. I hold myself accountable for MY actions. I do realize that some people dont. So with them..I express my concern..if they change ... I stay...if they dont...I walk away. Its not easy but neither is extracting a rotten tooth, but its better to extract it than waste time/energy/money/your (mental,physical,spirtual) health on saving something ...you know has no hope.... because it might poison you. 

One motto I do live by is...If you really love and care for someone, you can let them go. Sometimes the best medicine for a situation is to take a step back and let things settle down, because your emotions and whatnot are just a fuel to the fire.


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 3, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> You know Ben I agree completely with the bolded statements here but what about when our mate can't catch her breath, is at risk of stroke or can barely walk without pain? It's all cupcakes and puppy dogs until the bill comes due. ...





chicken legs said:


> ok I'm now starting to get a better understanding of what you guys are talking about. When it comes to the extremes of someones behavior, I dont hesitate to express my concern and draw a line. I dont care if its eating, snorting coke, sex, emotional outburts, overworking, etc. If someone is on the downward spiral, I express my concern. If they blow off my feeling on the situation...then fuck them...because I have better things to do than watch someone destroy themselves.



I'm putting both of these together because I think somewhere in the juncture or collision, or what have you of these thoughts is where I think some of the motivation for the denial comes from. I think where things get tricky (and I'm just being honest about this) is that I think some FA/FFAs who are attracted to super sized (I really dislike that term, but it's all I have) people wonder/fear if there is a silent encouragement that is detrimental to the other person, simply because he or she is a fat admirer who prefers super sized people. I think that's what Ernest is sort of getting at. Chicken legs stated earlier that being super sized is a luxury (I forgot the exact word you used, but that's the general idea) of the young and strong. But Ernest is a fair bit older than you and I and he's seen that down the road it isn't easy for a super sized 50 something to suddenly lose weight. I think that's what he's talking about anyway. And in terms of the denial the thread is addressing, I think sometimes us younger fat admirers, somewhere in the back of our minds, see that reality down the road for the people we're attracted to and a defense mechanism of denial springs up. (I, of course, am not talking about all of us). Some go the other way and wallow in guilt, too. But I think some fat admirers want to push down those doubts, fears and guilt so badly that they end up refusing to accept that weight loss may be necessary, or that sometimes life is just hard for a fat person and there is no solution to the problem, just commiseration from those who understand. I think it's a feeling of fear and helplessness on the part of some fat admirers that lead them to post things that make them seem sort of callous, or out of touch with fat people's reality. But, as Ben and Carrie's posts point out that also can lead to us being constantly patronizing to the people we love. In individual relationships, couples can work it out, of course. But as for the dynamics on the boards as a whole, I was wondering if there is a way that we can find balance on both sides so that fat admiration and size acceptance can, in fact, peacefully coexist. Does that make sense? I'm tired today and may not be making as much sense as I'd hoped.


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## chicken legs (Oct 3, 2009)

The reason I dont have guilt and what not is because I have a supersized sister, brother, and neice. I have watched my brother and sister slowly grow in size. I have watched my neice struggle with weight since birth. I know it is part genetics and it is also a result of their states of mind. 

Either way these family members were built to be big. They have larger bone structures than other family members and they are the physically stronger than most other members of my family. Their appetites and diets have not really changed over the years..all though they do have huge ones..only their level of activity has varied according to their state of mind and desire.

In the case of my older brother, at one point his weight peaked at the high 300's. At that time, I said.. you have a choice (I had a bad feeling he was close to a heart attack), either die and leave your (at the time) pre-teen sons to fend for themselves...or watch your diet to improve your health..so you can be there for them. He chose to improve his diet. He lost weight and even started taking more interest in his sons and just recently took a second honeymoon in Hawaii.

In the case of my older sister, she is in the mid to high 300's. I dont sense death in her near future but her level of health is not good, and she is rather depressed most of the time. However, she doesnt want to discipline herself for the greater good of her kids and to me that is selfish. So I told her just make sure her insurances are paid and keep her will up to date.. to insure her kids futures...and I leave it at that. 

In the case of my niece..she has always been big. She was a big baby and was really chunky in her preteens. By the time she was in high school she was already in the 300 range. However, she has always been big boned, extremely strong, with a huge appetite. So with her..i just say accept yourself..you're just naturally bigger than most. I do encourage her to workout and make it as routine as brushing one's teeth in the morning.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand that it is genetics and how that person decides to express their genetic predisposition is up to them. In all three cases ..they had/have the choice of being either huge in a fat way...or huge in a muscular way..or learning to strike the balance between those two states.

Its also up to them to either take my comments as negative or postive. In the end, we all have to lay in the beds we made. If you chose to whine and complain about it dont expect me to listen. If you chose to accept it with grace and dignity ..I am all for it. If you chose to change...I'll be there to support you.


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## olwen (Oct 3, 2009)

Ben from England said:


> Cool thread.
> 
> Comments or attitudes from FA's that spur the notion of fat being anything other than a good thing reek of over compensation to me. Like you said, they are more speaking to themselves, because acknowledging some of the harder truths can lead to uncomfortable reflections. The example you gave about the guy suggesting different clothing, whilst certainly insensitive, seems more like cognitive dissonance than anything else. The thought process of that person ends up in a different place as a self defence mechanism. The idea that clothing is the problem is far more comfortable than having to acknowledge that the persons size, something they love, is causing them misery to any degree.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what I was trying to get at once in a thread I don't remember...I was trying to ask a question about pity...your girlfriend expressed it in a way I couldn't at the time, since it was a half formed thought, but as I read this I realized that yes, sometimes that concern that you all have - the guilt and denial - can smack of patronizing pity. It can make a fat person feel like they are being excused for being fat or given permission to be fat, which is I see now from your post that isn't an F/FA's intention. It's crazy how easy it is to misunderstand each other too. That fat people don't always experience the exact same issues probably confuses things even more for both fat folks and other F/FAs. 

I have to wonder too how much the internet plays a part in it. Does being able to use this medium make communication and understanding each other easier or more difficult?


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## Dr. P Marshall (Oct 3, 2009)

olwen said:


> That is exactly what I was trying to get at once in a thread I don't remember...I was trying to ask a question about pity...your girlfriend expressed it in a way I couldn't at the time, since it was a half formed thought, but as I read this I realized that yes, sometimes that concern that you all have - the guilt and denial - can smack of patronizing pity. It can make a fat person feel like they are being excused for being fat or given permission to be fat, which is I see now from your post that isn't an F/FA's intention. It's crazy how easy it is to misunderstand each other too. That fat people don't always experience the exact same issues probably confuses things even more for both fat folks and other F/FAs.
> 
> *I have to wonder too how much the internet plays a part in it. Does being able to use this medium make communication and understanding each other easier or more difficult?*



I don't know olwen, I think I may have met a BBW from the internet who I seem to get along with in real life.

Seriously, I think the internet makes it both more difficult and less. It depends on who you are. For example, if a BBW wondered about what Ben said in his post, but never met an FA willing to talk about it....there could be less understanding. On the other hand, there are things posted here that probably most of us wish we never had to contemplate in terms of creepiness or other things. That's what I meant earlier when I said some of the FA posts that seem callous, even if moderated, they're out there and become part of the Dims collective psyche. Now if a BBW or BHM only knew fat admirers from befriending or dating them in real life, they would view all fat admirers through the prism of that person and A LOT would be riding on that one person's personality. So, it's tough to say. It would depend on individual experiences, I think. 

As for the patronizing pity issue, this is where I think there is a real disconnect. I think a lot of times it comes across that way, but it really is from a place of fear or denial on the part of the F/FA. Chicken legs post about healthy super sized people is definitely true, but the flip side is coming on to Dims after a SSBBW has passed on, or some other issue. It can really shake up an F/FA. A lot (certainly NOT all) of us have wrestled with feeling like monsters. After time spent here or in real world situations, it usually goes away, but initially I think a lot of fat admirers DO feel responsible for if not actually possessive of the fat partner's fat. It's ridiculous, of course, but emotions aren't logical. Then, the fat admirer gets all caught up in the fear, self loathing, etc and it can take a while to get to a place of ease. But some never get there. Or some get there and still fear for the future. Or they have had past experiences that reinforced their fears. It can all be very confusing. When I read a lot of the overzealous posts from F/FAs that seem to brush off a health concern, I read denial, denial, denial. Whereas, they would be better off most likely facing the fears, going through the guilt and coming out the other side more adjusted. But while I applaud Chicken legs' balanced perspective, I think it is the rare F/FA who comes to that conclusion right away. I think one way or another we either wallow or deny. But again, I don't think it's from a place of pity. I always think it comes from the basic question (and please no one flame me, I'm not saying I agree with this) "What if society IS right? What if being fat IS unhealthy?" I think there can be those doubts. I think those doubts can be buried so far down that a fat admirer may not even have any idea that they have them. But on some visceral level it causes a gut reaction and leads to strange posts. Add to that that a thin/ner fat admirer doesn't have first hand experience and so we don't actually know how it is to be fat. Sure, there are many healthy fat people here. But there are also some who aren't or who aren't happy with their weight still. So for an F/FA that can seem disorienting I think....sometimes. At least as they're sorting it out. And different fat admirers will come to different conclusions. Some will end up totally well adjusted, some will live their lives in guilt, some will go into denial. The denial group was who I was particularly addressing. They don't get talked about much.


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 5, 2009)

I've looked as best I'm able and I don't honestly feel either pity or guilt enter significantly into what I've experienced. I definitely don't feel I've "wallowed" in anything. I'd give my left nut not to have to deal with such health/coping issues as living with a SSBBW presents. I don't get any juice or feel noble for dealing with it. It's just what's there to do when you love someone. 

There were a LOT of other things wrong with my marriage that had nothing to do with her size. Her inability to care for herself made leaving more difficult, both emotionally and financially, but it didn't make it less necessary. I'm not especially emotionally aware but I'm pretty sure all I ever felt in response to my ex's health and mobility issues was normal concern for another human being? Someone you care about hurts or struggles and your heart goes out to them. Is there something wrong with that? Is expressing it somehow offensive to people here? 

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but as I read through this thread it feels like some expect FA's to just be oblivious to our partners reality. Robert Heinlein defined love as "that state of existence wherein another persons happiness and well-being becomes essential to your own." What do you do when someone's key source of happiness (food) is damaging their well-being beyond repair? I've made my choice and I'll live with it. I'm not criticizing anyone who chooses differently but I hope my perspective can be accorded at least some understanding, if not respect.


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## olwen (Oct 5, 2009)

Ernest, I don't think it's that we expect FAs to be oblivious, I think perhaps it's just a fine line that you all have to walk sometimes. Every fat person is different in their attitudes about their own bodies and health, so I suppose in some ways it's the fat person who determines how hard that line is for FAs to walk....


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 6, 2009)

olwen said:


> Ernest, I don't think it's that we expect FAs to be oblivious, I think perhaps it's just a fine line that you all have to walk sometimes. Every fat person is different in their attitudes about their own bodies and health, so I suppose in some ways it's the fat person who determines how hard that line is for FAs to walk....



Thanks. I do understand that Olwen. I just think my inability to say "no" or to be with another person's near term suffering makes me an unsuitable candidate for relationships with the kind of women I'm attracted to, Every pot doesn't have a lid that fits, or so it seems?


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## Webmaster (Oct 9, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> ...I'm not really sure what my questions are....I guess it's just do you feel as a fat admirer that you sometimes put reality on hold in order to feel less threatened by the challenges that fat people face? Or do you go the other way and wallow in guilt?...



I think that is one of the essential conundrums FAs face. We love fat people, we're drawn to them, fatness itself is this wondrous thing to us, yet we see the struggles and challenges that fatness can cause. I think that different people are dealing with this in different ways. Some may try to put on rose-colored glasses whereas others beat themselves up. 

The way I see it, when you have a fat partner, their reality does to some extent become your reality and a lot of stuff becomes the norm in your life, and some of those challenges no longer seem extraordinary or insurmountable.

There are, of course, those days when things look grim and it's easy to fall into doubt and guilt. It's then good to remember that your partner most likely would still be fat without you, but then may not have a supportive other to share things with.


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## Webmaster (Oct 9, 2009)

olwen said:


> ...I have to wonder too how much the internet plays a part in it. Does being able to use this medium make communication and understanding each other easier or more difficult?



Lest we use the medium to carve out fiefdoms, I should very much hope the former!


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## Carrie (Oct 9, 2009)

Webmaster said:


> *It's then good to remember that your partner most likely would still be fat without you, but then may not have a supportive other to share things with.*


Thank you so much for saying this, Conrad. Quoted for truth. 

I have gained weight when with two partners, one of whom was, ironically, a non-FA who found my weight gain unattractive (which depressed me and made me eat more/compulsively/emotionally blahblah etc. vicious cycle). I've never gained weight because of an involvement with a FA*, and I've never lost considerable weight after breaking up with one. My body seems to be the sole captain of the Carrie-weight ship. I am pretty content and do pretty well in general living the single life, but like anyone, regardless of size, I find being in a relationship with a supportive, caring partner who can help with the hard stuff (and that goes both ways) can really be a blessing. 

*One thing I'm mulling is, I wonder if sometimes FAs who _have_ experienced a partner gaining weight while they were together were, in some cases, witnessing the results of emotional eating caused by relationship or life circumstance stress, but attributed the gain somehow to their FA-ness, rather than what is, essentially, an eating disorder? In my last relationship with a FA, it was a long-distance relationship, and the stress of his experiencing a life-changing accident and two of my beloved dogs dying suddenly within a few months of each other drove me to compulsively overeat over a long period of time, to help deal with the stress and anxiety and sadness. I gained a considerable amount of weight during that time, but it had zippity to do with his being a FA, and everything to do with my lacking better coping abilities. Now that I have had a chance to recover and heal some and work on my habits, my eating is normal and my weight has balanced back out. So I don't know. Obviously not all fatties carry around the emotional/stress eating monkey on our backs, but some of us certainly do. Just something for the FAs to consider when worrying about blame, I suppose.


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## Carrie (Oct 9, 2009)

Carrie said:


> Thank you so much for saying this, Conrad. Quoted for truth.
> 
> I have gained weight when with two partners, one of whom was, ironically, a non-FA who found my weight gain unattractive (which depressed me and made me eat more/compulsively/emotionally blahblah etc. vicious cycle). I've never gained weight because of an involvement with a FA*, and I've never lost considerable weight after breaking up with one. My body seems to be the sole captain of the Carrie-weight ship. I am pretty content and do pretty well in general living the single life, but like anyone, regardless of size, I find being in a relationship with a supportive, caring partner who can help with the hard stuff (and that goes both ways) can really be a blessing.
> 
> *One thing I'm mulling is, I wonder if sometimes FAs who _have_ experienced a partner gaining weight while they were together were, in some cases, witnessing the results of emotional eating caused by relationship or life circumstance stress, but attributed the gain somehow to their FA-ness, rather than what is, essentially, an eating disorder? In my last relationship with a FA, it was a long-distance relationship, and the stress of his experiencing a life-changing accident and two of my beloved dogs dying suddenly within a few months of each other drove me to compulsively overeat over a long period of time, to help deal with the stress and anxiety and sadness. I gained a considerable amount of weight during that time, but it had zippity to do with his being a FA, and everything to do with my lacking better coping abilities. Now that I have had a chance to recover and heal some and work on my habits, my eating is normal and my weight has balanced back out. So I don't know. Obviously not all fatties carry around the emotional/stress eating monkey on our backs, but some of us certainly do. Just something for the FAs to consider when worrying about blame, I suppose.



Apologies for commenting on my own post, but in continuing to think about this, it also occurs to me that it wasn't just the eating that put the weight on during this particular time period to which I alluded in my post; it was also the combination of a few physical injuries and complications which I ignored because I already felt so overwhelmed by life in general. My mobility declined, so my activity level followed suit. I'm kind of wondering if I'd had a concerned FA partner at the time who was _there_ seeing me get a little more stiff and painful each day, and who voiced his concerns to me, if that would have forced me out of my denial and realize much sooner how badly I needed to get to a doctor and start physical therapy, etc. I don't know, but again, it's just another thought about the dynamics of the (F)FA/fat person relationship.


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## snuggletiger (Oct 9, 2009)

Carrie said:


> Apologies for commenting on my own post, but in continuing to think about this, it also occurs to me that it wasn't just the eating that put the weight on during this particular time period to which I alluded in my post; it was also the combination of a few physical injuries and complications which I ignored because I already felt so overwhelmed by life in general. My mobility declined, so my activity level followed suit. I'm kind of wondering if I'd had a concerned FA partner at the time who was _there_ seeing me get a little more stiff and painful each day, and who voiced his concerns to me, if that would have forced me out of my denial and realize much sooner how badly I needed to get to a doctor and start physical therapy, etc. I don't know, but again, it's just another thought about the dynamics of the (F)FA/fat person relationship.



Sorry about your doggies *big hug*


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 9, 2009)

Carrie said:


> Apologies for commenting on my own post, but in continuing to think about this, it also occurs to me that it wasn't just the eating that put the weight on during this particular time period to which I alluded in my post; it was also the combination of a few physical injuries and complications which I ignored because I already felt so overwhelmed by life in general. My mobility declined, so my activity level followed suit. I'm kind of wondering if I'd had a concerned FA partner at the time who was _there_ seeing me get a little more stiff and painful each day, and who voiced his concerns to me, if that would have forced me out of my denial and realize much sooner how badly I needed to get to a doctor and start physical therapy, etc. I don't know, but again, it's just another thought about the dynamics of the (F)FA/fat person relationship.



I know that it would not have helped me, probably would have made matters much worse. The thing about the grieving process is that there is no other way to get past them, you have to go THROUGH them. I have every confidence in myself knowing that eventually I would pull myself out of it but only when I am ready, no sooner. A concerned partner's handwringing over me and trying to rush me along would have made for many many fights. My hope would be that my partner would have the same kind of confidence in me that I have in myself but I realize that may be a tall order when you're the partner and you're worried. There's got to be a happy medium though. People do manage to survive these slumps somehow.


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## Carrie (Oct 9, 2009)

snuggletiger said:


> Sorry about your doggies *big hug*


Thanks, C.  It was a few years ago, so I'm okay now. 



LillyBBBW said:


> I know that it would not have helped me, probably would have made matters much worse. The thing about the grieving process is that there is no other way to get past them, you have to go THROUGH them. I have every confidence in myself knowing that eventually I would pull myself out of it but only when I am ready, no sooner. A concerned partner's handwringing over me and trying to rush me along would have made for many many fights. My hope would be that my partner would have the same kind of confidence in me that I have in myself but I realize that may be a tall order when you're the partner and you're worried. There's got to be a happy medium though. People do manage to survive these slumps somehow.


I agree with that, but there's a big difference between incessant fussing/hovering and hand-wringing (annoying as hell, I agree), and just saying, "Hey, I noticed today while we were at the store that your knees seem to be getting more painful lately. Do you think you should maybe see a doctor for that?". And just disregard size vs. non-size issues for a moment: if I were with someone who had a persistent cough, for instance, I'd sure as hell mention it and suggest it might be time to see a doctor. I was in such denial about how quickly I was declining at the time, it just makes me wonder what might have happened if I had been forced to stop and just think about it, even for just a moment - which I was patently refusing to do at the time. That's what I meant, not like partner-parenting and co-opting the other partner's responsibility for his/herself, which is definitely *not* my cup of tea. Ick. I was referring more to the happy medium you referenced, L, though I may not have expressed that well. 

Anyway. I definitely don't want to make this thread about me! I was just hoping to present one pro-FA fat girl's experience and resulting viewpoint. :blush:


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 9, 2009)

I think this post from the "What is making you sad right now?" thread pretty well sums up my feelings? "Watching someone you love make huge and clear mistakes and not being able to do anything about it."

As a long-time partner of SSBBW I understand it's my place to support, not to intercede; to listen, not to lecture; to somehow tacitly accept without implicitly approving of self-destructive choices but none of that makes it any easier. Yes, I respect her accountability for her life but I also have to be responsible for what's happening to me as a result of staying in a relationship with her as well. 

When she can't walk without pain and exhaustion or can't sleep or breathe comfortably, should I be able to just say "Oops! Her life, her call." and pretend not to notice? I know this comparison is not generally acceptable here but if I were a substance abuser who refused help should she just chalk it up to personal lifestyle decisions and dutifully try to focus on how much she loves me? Marriage means working things out together, compromising and forgiving (among other things). I don't think it means ignoring the need for treatment/intervention because "that would just add to her burden".

This is one of the darkest and most difficult issues FA's have to deal with, IMO. It's not easy for me to have this conversation and unless it's making a difference for someone I'm about fried even thinking about it. I apologize if I seem strident or defensive. Some wounds only hold so much salt.


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## Elfcat (Oct 16, 2009)

I was widowed in 2003, and when I saw another FA asking about concerns with health and longevity and such, my reply was this: No matter how healthy partners are, a life-long relationship will end with one partner burying the other. That is the most realistic way to look at it, and there's nothing wrong with it. We are all mortals, none of us know whether injuries external or internal will take us down, and we all want love and friendship while we are still here.

I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 16, 2009)

Elfcat said:


> I was widowed in 2003, and when I saw another FA asking about concerns with health and longevity and such, my reply was this: No matter how healthy partners are, a life-long relationship will end with one partner burying the other. That is the most realistic way to look at it, and there's nothing wrong with it. We are all mortals, none of us know whether injuries external or internal will take us down, and we all want love and friendship while we are still here.
> 
> I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!



That is SO good and SO appropriate I want to put it on a cracker and EAT it and make it a permanent part of my innards!! Great post Elfcat.


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## Santaclear (Oct 16, 2009)

Elfcat said:


> I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!



Yeah, excellent post, Elfcat....especially the first part of this paragraph.


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 16, 2009)

Elfcat said:


> I was widowed in 2003, and when I saw another FA asking about concerns with health and longevity and such, my reply was this: No matter how healthy partners are, a life-long relationship will end with one partner burying the other. That is the most realistic way to look at it, and there's nothing wrong with it. We are all mortals, none of us know whether injuries external or internal will take us down, and we all want love and friendship while we are still here.
> 
> I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!



First, sincere condolences for your loss. Not disagreeing with you re guilt, shame or embarrassment. Totally pointless. What do you do with _concern_ though? Mortality is a given, I get that. Thin people have health issues, I get that too. What do you do when someone's quality of life is declining and they won't address it? 

If you haven't lived with someone whose every move is difficult and painful, can't sleep comfortably, drive safely or take care of herself, please don't judge. To watch someone you care deeply about suffering and be able to do nothing to change that sucks on many levels. It's hard not to second-guess yourself; what should you have seen/done differently? You can call wanting to diminish the pain of a loved one guilt, I suppose, but I prefer to think of it as a simple matter of conscience. Can I tacitly condone self-destructive behavior in a partner? Not indefinitely was the answer in my case. I hope others answers and circumstances are easier.


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## stefanie (Oct 16, 2009)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> I think where things get tricky (and I'm just being honest about this) is that I think some FA/FFAs who are attracted to super sized (I really dislike that term, but it's all I have) people wonder/fear if there is a silent encouragement that is detrimental to the other person, simply because he or she is a fat admirer who prefers super sized people. I think that's what Ernest is sort of getting at. Chicken legs stated earlier that being super sized is a luxury (I forgot the exact word you used, but that's the general idea) of the young and strong.



Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being attracted to "super-sized" (for lack of a better term) people; nor do I see it as "enabling." 

It might make it a bit clearer to specify what level of attraction we're talking about. If I look at a photo of a very fat man, and I find it attractive, I'm probably not thinking of whether or not he has personal health problems, etc. Later, if I learn something about him (like perhaps that he *does* have medical problems), I'm more likely to feel guilty for just seeing him as a beautiful body, rather than a person with a life and problems which go beyond just the pretty picture.

Then, as you meet someone personally, I guess it depends on the level of involvement. There are big differences in commitment, obviously, between someone you casually date, and a long-term committed relationship. But IMO everyone should be treated with respect, and that respect includes listening to how *they* feel about being fat, and never treating them as something *only* for your own pleasure. 

My experience is with a long marriage. For me, I want my husband to be healthy and be around for a long time. So I encourage him to be careful about his eating; I cook healthfully; I encourage him to work out. If it means he were to become smaller, then I would live with it.

Which segues into that I dont' see anything wrong with people deciding to lose weight, however they try it, when there are health reasons. It's not up to someone else to judge how the very fat person has to live in their own body. Sometimes living in that body can be difficult. It's not realistic to act as if that isn't sometimes the case.

*Ernst Nagel,* what you bring up is a very serious issue for a lot of people, and not always in reference to size. There are people with diabetes (thin ones!) who don't monitor their blood sugar or take their meds. Others ignore their well-being in other ways. But even when people do "everything right," sometimes their bodies just fail. This is a great and scary sorrow, made worse by loving someone whose body isn't considered "acceptable" for all kinds of reasons.


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## EtobicokeFA (Oct 18, 2009)

stefanie said:


> Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being attracted to "super-sized" (for lack of a better term) people; nor do I see it as "enabling."
> 
> It might make it a bit clearer to specify what level of attraction we're talking about. If I look at a photo of a very fat man, and I find it attractive, I'm probably not thinking of whether or not he has personal health problems, etc. Later, if I learn something about him (like perhaps that he *does* have medical problems), I'm more likely to feel guilty for just seeing him as a beautiful body, rather than a person with a life and problems which go beyond just the pretty picture.
> 
> ...




I totally agree, that people should make their own decisions about their own bodies. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and we are judged by the choices that we make. And, people (if they mean it or not) question the choices other people make, and believe that in certain cases they have the right to intervene. Especially if they can't get mind around the reasons behind those choices. And especially if one thinks the one is suffering or is in denial. 

Not that I am saying that all BBWs are suffering, just that people usually associate the issues one has with ones body (especially with ones weight) with suffering.

Not saying it's right or wrong, just human behavior.


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