# Will you be getting the swine flu vaccine?



## JerseyGirl07093 (Oct 2, 2009)

I never get the flu. The last time I had it was 20 years ago. But all this talk about the swine flu has got me nervous. I never get the flu shot because I don't really get that sick, but this year I'm thinking I'm going to get it. I'm also thinking about getting the swine flu shot if it is available. They don't really know the side effects of the shot yet so that has got me concerned. Then again, I'm really concerned about possibly getting the swine flu. 
I was just wondering if anyone else is getting the swine flu vaccine. And if you're not getting the vaccine what is the reason?
I just hope we all stay healthy this winter!


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## Frankie (Oct 3, 2009)

I'm going to get the regular flu vaccination for the first time as well as one for the swine flu when it becomes available to me. Living in NYC and riding mass transit, it seems like a reasonable thing to do.

The swine flu vaccine is not any more dangerous than the regular flu vaccine. 

My understanding is that the regular flu vaccine (if not the one for swine flu, too) will prevent flu 50% of the time; it is not a guarantee that you will absolutely not catch the flu at all. However, in the other 50%, it will ease flu symptoms and make it not nearly as rough of a ride as it normally would be. Some folks do feel a little tired and achy within a couple of days of getting the vaccination, so it might be good to try to get it on a Friday so you have the weekend to recover. I've also learned that *folks should not take ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin) or aspirin to deal with any achy post-vaccination side effects because those meds interfere with the body's ability to make antibodies, and you will not receive the full effect of the vaccine*. If you must take a pain killer, take acetaminophen (Tylenol), unless specifically contraindicated for you (too much can cause liver damage).

P.S. I'm a little nervous to be vaccinated. The last time I had the flu was, like you, 20 years ago.


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## buttbooger (Oct 3, 2009)

Might opt for the pneumonia shot instead. it is good for 5 years and helps prevent pneumonia. Tried regular flu shots in the past, but still caught the flu, and Im not sure what possible side effects this new vaccine might have. Im a little leery. I had H1N1 already anyway.


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## Blackjack (Oct 3, 2009)

The thing about H1N1 is that it doesn't seem all that different at this point than a regular flu. It's no more severe, at any rate; the major differences are in its spread (which is unusually high considering it being off-season) and the age range that it seems to affect (which is younger than the typical flu). Even so, I don't think that there's a significant amount to worry about here. The majority of deaths that occur due to it are, as far as I can tell, linked to prior medical issues, such as severe asthma or immune disorders.

What has experts worried is the chance that it might mutate into something that is more dangerous, more fatal. This is probably the biggest concern, because it is a new strain, and because it is a similar strain to the one that caused the devestating 1918 epidemic- although it lacks the particular characteristics that made that strain so fatal.


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## goofy girl (Oct 3, 2009)

Given that this vaccine was created in less than a year, I'm more worried about the side effects of it than getting the swine flu.


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## Blackjack (Oct 3, 2009)

goofy girl said:


> Given that this vaccine was created in less than a year, I'm more worried about the side effects of it than getting the swine flu.



The side effects of it are, because of the way it's made, not any different than the side effects of the regular flu vaccine.


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## Gingembre (Oct 4, 2009)

As Blackjack said, at the moment swine flu doesnt seem worse than ordinary flu, apart from it's potential prevelance. I am a healthy 23 yr old who doesn't get sick _that_ easily so for both these reasons I would not get a vaccine, were one to be offered. If the virus mutated to get (to use the scientific term ) uber-deadly, the vaccine may no longer work anyway. It's a crafty bugger, flu!


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## Mini (Oct 4, 2009)

***warning: graphic footage***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9kMkJeia1o&feature=sub

I'll be getting the vaccination when it becomes available to me.


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## Gingembre (Oct 4, 2009)

Valid point, Mini, that was an interesting watch. I did get a flu jab when I was living in halls at uni, and if i was still at university, or worked with children or eldery people, I would probably get the vaccine and, obviously, were I to start developing flu-like symptoms, I would stay at home and quarantine myself appropriately. However, I am also conscious of the impact that the overuse of antibactirials and antivirals is having on the population and prefer to try and keep my immune system in as good state as it can be and not use too many preventative/curative measures. The healthcare system works differently here and, being in a low risk group, there are no current plans for the NHS to offer me the vaccine anyway. If people want to get vaccinated, fine, and if it were recommended that I get the vaccine then i would get it, but as things stand at the moment I would not go looking for it.


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## goofy girl (Oct 4, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> The side effects of it are, because of the way it's made, not any different than the side effects of the regular flu vaccine.



Those would be the immediate side effects. Who knows about long term at this point.


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## Shosh (Oct 4, 2009)

As I said in the other thread the Australian Government is providing the swine flu vaccine free of charge to all Australians.
I will be in the first group of people to get it, due to my having a chronic health condition.


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## tinkerbell (Oct 4, 2009)

My boss has recommended strongly that everyone in the office get a flu shot and a H1N1 flu shot this year. I work in a dental office. He's not forcing us, but really recommending that we get them both. 

And as far as the long term side effects of this vaccine - its actually not any different from the regular flu vaccine. Its based on the regular flu vaccine. And had it emerged sooner, it would have just been apart of the regular seasonal flu vaccine.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 4, 2009)

As I mentioned in the other thread, given my preexisting respiratory issues, I'm going to get it. Alaska's been hit hard, and the season is still young. I don't normally get the flu shot because it's a numbers game -- they take two or three strains of viruses that hit Asia the year before and make a vaccine out of them. They've been wrong a lot, and given my crazy responses to vaccines (anaphylaxis to a tetanus vaccine!) I'll take my chances.

But given that several of my co-workers have had H1N1 already, I'll get the vaccine. And be sure they have a crash cart handy, since no one can figure out what I reacted to.


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## rainyday (Oct 4, 2009)

Mini said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9kMkJeia1o&feature=sub
> 
> I'll be getting the vaccination when it becomes available to me.




Links like this should have a warning about what people are in for seeing when they click.


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## Mini (Oct 4, 2009)

rainyday said:


> Links like this should have a warning about what people are in for seeing when they click.



I didn't realize rational commentary required a warning.


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## Donna (Oct 4, 2009)

I am nervous about taking the seasonal and H1N1 vaccines given my prior reactions to vaccines, but I have little choice in the matter. My employer has mandated (and is paying for thankfully) both vaccines for all employees irregardless if we have direct patient contact or not. I work in an off site back office capacity (I work for a hospital corporation and the HR, Payroll, Billing and other administration functions for our facilities are handled at central locations throughout the country) but if I decline the vaccines based on religious or medical reasons, I will have to wear a mask and gloves at all times when I am on the premises. 

I know it is for my own good, since I have respiratory issues and a compromised immune system, but it still concerns me. I am attempting to talk myself out of that worry.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 4, 2009)

Since I have asthma, I always get the flu shot every year, and last year was the only year in the last ten I've gotten the flu anyway. I just got my flu shot for this year on Friday. I will definitely be getting the H1N1 shot as soon as it's made available. 

Yes, there is a small risk of side effects from any vaccine, but the risk of dangerous complications from the virus are SUBSTANTIALLY higher than the miniscule risk a vaccine poses. I was reading about this in a reputable news source recently... wish I remembered where so I could find it.

To me, it's like saying "I'm not going to take swim lessons so I can learn to swim because I could drown during those lessons." Well, yeah, there's a small chance, but your risk of drowning if you DON'T get those lessons is much higher. Bad analogy, but... you get the point.


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## Heavy_Cream (Oct 4, 2009)

No. I do not feel it's necessary for me to have it done and I don't trust the ingredients in it. I always feel that the fewer chemicals I can get away with not putting in myself, the better.


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## Heavy_Cream (Oct 4, 2009)

HA! Wait...or should that read...I feel the fewer chemicals I can get away with....nevermind. You know what I mean.


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## HottiMegan (Oct 4, 2009)

My sons' pediatrician said that it was more important for them to get the flu shot and that he isn't worried about the h1n1. That's even with Max being medically fragile. He had his normal flu shot last week. Alex goes in for his 15 month check up next month, i'll see then if he changed his mind. I haven't had a flu shot of any kind other than when i was pregnant with Max and Alex. Hubby's work gives them out to all the employees since he works in a hospital, so it's important for him to be shot up with all the sick people there.


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## Frankie (Oct 4, 2009)

Megan, seeing your post got me to wondering whether vegans object to the flu vaccine since it's made with chicken eggs.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 5, 2009)

The problem with this flu is it has a 60% rate of transmission and the newer info looks like it may live on surfaces for as long as 7 days, scary as hell....as far as transmission etc...

Many hospitals are making it mandatory for staff, if they are that concerned, shouldnt you be?


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## SocialbFly (Oct 5, 2009)

HottiMegan said:


> My sons' pediatrician said that it was more important for them to get the flu shot and that he isn't worried about the h1n1. That's even with Max being medically fragile. He had his normal flu shot last week. Alex goes in for his 15 month check up next month, i'll see then if he changed his mind. I haven't had a flu shot of any kind other than when i was pregnant with Max and Alex. Hubby's work gives them out to all the employees since he works in a hospital, so it's important for him to be shot up with all the sick people there.



Megan, i work in a pediatric ICU and that isnt what they are saying at all...i personally would call another doc regarding your son getting the vaccine for H1N1....


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## SocialbFly (Oct 5, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> The thing about H1N1 is that it doesn't seem all that different at this point than a regular flu. It's no more severe, at any rate; the major differences are in its spread (which is unusually high considering it being off-season) and the age range that it seems to affect (which is younger than the typical flu). Even so, I don't think that there's a significant amount to worry about here. The majority of deaths that occur due to it are, as far as I can tell, linked to prior medical issues, such as severe asthma or immune disorders.
> 
> What has experts worried is the chance that it might mutate into something that is more dangerous, more fatal. This is probably the biggest concern, because it is a new strain, and because it is a similar strain to the one that caused the devestating 1918 epidemic- although it lacks the particular characteristics that made that strain so fatal.



Blackjack, that simply isnt true. the rate of transmission is higher, although they dont think the flu is as virulant as the regular flu, but believe it or not, the group that is having the roughest time is the 18-24 year old obese young adult...sound like anyone you know?


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## SocialbFly (Oct 5, 2009)

Please, again, educate yourself and see if you want the vaccine or not, here is the article i am using for part of my choice...

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/709540

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/swineflu/key_facts.htm

http://www.education.com/quiz/h1n1-swine-flu/

http://www.cdc.gov/H1n1flu/update.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/19/AR2009051902609.html

anyway, i hope some of these help any of you in your decision regarding the vaccine or how to protect yourself,now or in any flu season...


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## SocialbFly (Oct 5, 2009)

Mini said:


> I didn't realize rational commentary required a warning.



...the youtube video is part truth, part sensationalist crap...


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## ToniTails (Oct 5, 2009)

even tho i think for the most part this particular strain is definitely bloated by the media, i will still vaccinate myself and my son--- better safe than sorry ya know?



JerseyGirl07093 said:


> I never get the flu. The last time I had it was 20 years ago. But all this talk about the swine flu has got me nervous. I never get the flu shot because I don't really get that sick, but this year I'm thinking I'm going to get it. I'm also thinking about getting the swine flu shot if it is available. They don't really know the side effects of the shot yet so that has got me concerned. Then again, I'm really concerned about possibly getting the swine flu.
> I was just wondering if anyone else is getting the swine flu vaccine. And if you're not getting the vaccine what is the reason?
> I just hope we all stay healthy this winter!


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## Mini (Oct 5, 2009)

SocialbFly said:


> Mini, sometimes you can be an insensitive ass, but i am pretty sure you know it...the youtube video is part truth, part sensationalist crap...



I respectfully disagree. This is fun!


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## Jes (Oct 5, 2009)

SocialbFly said:


> The problem with this flu is it has a 60% rate of transmission and the newer info looks like it may live on surfaces for as long as 7 days, scary as hell....as far as transmission etc...
> 
> Many hospitals are making it mandatory for staff, if they are that concerned, shouldnt you be?



we-people b etween 20 and 50 or something, are the target age range, too. I'd thought that it was the same old thing: if you are very young, very old, work with kids, work with the sick: then you should get the shot. But then I heard that wasn't so much the case here. And I got it and fall into NONE of the cases above. 

The person from whom I believe I caught this was someone I didn't see for...what, 2 weeks after she got it? Seriously. ANd then we had dinner together but didn't share any food, and then I drove in her car. No making out.

And while this flu isn't more deadly than any other, it is a NOVEL strain. This means that when it hits you, you're not going to have any residual antibodies or resistance. Right? SOmeone medical correct me, please. It's not a mutation of last year's flu (well, it's a mutation, but from a long while ago) so it's more worser.


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## Teleute (Oct 5, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> However, I am also conscious of the impact that the overuse of antibactirials and antivirals is having on the population and prefer to try and keep my immune system in as good state as it can be and not use too many preventative/curative measures.



Vaccines fit right into this line of thought, though - one of the reasons the antibacterial soaps etc. have such an impact is because they mean you don't let yourself get exposed to things, and never build up a resistance to them. The whole idea of a vaccine is that you're pre-emptively exposing yourself, and thus preparing your immune system to deal with those diseases. 

In response to the original question - yes, I will be getting the vaccine. I work in a cancer treatment center and it's offered free for all staff. Even if it weren't, I'd go search it out.


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## Melian (Oct 5, 2009)

I won't be getting the vaccine.....but I've already had H1N1 (swine). It was basically your typical influenza A infection, with one night of fairly severe respiratory distress (didn't end up going to the hospital though).

Had I not already been infected, I'd probably get the free shot when it was conveniently offered at my place of employment.


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## sunnie1653 (Oct 5, 2009)

Nope. Not getting it, not getting the twins vax'd. We barely go out with a lot of people around. If anyones going to get it, its going to be my husband. He's doing training classes this fall/winter and will be exposed to all sorts of people.

But I've read some of the ingredients they're putting in it ... no thank you.


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## JerseyGirl07093 (Oct 5, 2009)

I was at the doctor the other day and he didn't even have the swine flu vaccine yet. I always wonder why they give out the vaccine this late in the season when flu season is already upon us. Makes me wonder when, if ever, we'll get the vaccine around here. I was going to get the regular flu vaccine but since I don't fall into the category of people who they usually recommend it for (children, the elderly, health care workers) and since I usually don't get the flu and don't have other underlying health issues he suggested that I didn't really need it. He said because he has such a short supply he would rather save it for someone else who really needed it like someone elderly or diabetic. So I didn't get the shot. It all happened so fast, I hope I made the right decision.
I'm just paranoid about the breathing problems associated with the swine flu. With any flu or even respiratory illness actually. I'm the nervous type, lucky me. Ha!


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## SocialbFly (Oct 5, 2009)

Jes said:


> we-people b etween 20 and 50 or something, are the target age range, too. I'd thought that it was the same old thing: if you are very young, very old, work with kids, work with the sick: then you should get the shot. But then I heard that wasn't so much the case here. And I got it and fall into NONE of the cases above.
> 
> The person from whom I believe I caught this was someone I didn't see for...what, 2 weeks after she got it? Seriously. ANd then we had dinner together but didn't share any food, and then I drove in her car. No making out.
> 
> And while this flu isn't more deadly than any other, it is a NOVEL strain. This means that when it hits you, you're not going to have any residual antibodies or resistance. Right? SOmeone medical correct me, please. It's not a mutation of last year's flu (well, it's a mutation, but from a long while ago) so it's more worser.





I caught it (what is presumed to be, since many tested pos for influenza A which this late in the season is H1N1) at the Vegas bash, where it spread quickly...then i got exposed again to it at work, it was too soon to develope antibodies and i got a version of it again, and this time, it went right to my lungs and it sucked....

i will still get all the vaccines this year...

“Novel” means that this virus was newly found. 

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/eua/pdf/factsheet_patients.pdf


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## rainyday (Oct 5, 2009)

I found some information on which versions of the H1N1 shot contain mercury and which don't. In general it looks like shots given from manufacturer pre-filled syringes don't and ones from multi-dose bottles do, but it varies so check the links:

http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/

Johns Hopkins' vaccine site:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 6, 2009)

Jerseygirl, they're just sending out the first doses of the vaccine now. They've had to pull it together pretty quickly. Usually, with the regular seasonal flu vaccine, they take a couple of strains of flu that were particularly common in Asia last year and made people especially sick; they make a vaccine from that, so they have some lead time (they're probably already thinking about next year's vaccine, looking at what's bad in Asia right now). The fact that it's a number's game -- and viruses mutate very rapidly -- is why I haven't gotten a seasonal flu shot in... well.. never. I have strange and unpredictible vaccine reactions so I'm not going to get that one.

With H1N1, however, they are targeting it to a specific bug. In a way that makes it easier, and more effective. Yes, viruses mutate but the hope is that it won't mutate so much that it's wildly dissimilar to the antigens in the vaccine and will therefore offer some protection. 

The first doses coming out are the nasal spray and don't, therefore, have mercury in them (I hope since I'm allergic to thimerasol). The downside of the nasal spray vaccine is that it can trigger asthma attacks and since asthmatics are one of the main groups who they are targeting for receiving it ASAP it's a non-starter. The mercury is used in multi dose vaccines because of the risk of contamination. In single dose vials they don't have to worry about that and so they don't have mercury as a preservative.

I caught a ration yesterday from a visitor for my very sweet and understanding patient. I had to resort to statistics -- the fact that 28 pregnant women have died in the US (so far -- the season is young) from the swine flu and that we had a pregnant woman intubated up on another floor and who nearly died from the swine flu -- to get this lady's attention. Pregnant women are six times more likely to die from it than the general population, and since we have lots of pregnant ladies on my floor, it's an issue we're concerned about. We've limited to two visitors for a person's entire stay, and they can't be under 19, and they can't be sick. Period. It's for our patient's protection (and, truthfully, staff, since the two nurses I know who had swine flu got it from baby daddies who came in with it) but you'd think we were the Gestapo or something.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 7, 2009)

Miss Vickie, they are also making you wear a mask for two weeks at work if you get the nasal vaccine...give me the shot....please....wearing masks longer than needed, no way, they suck


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## SocialbFly (Oct 7, 2009)

what makes me the saddest, is that people dont come and visit sick, many just honestly dont know they are sick...our RSV debacle at one hospital i worked at, got a ton of our NICU babys sick, cause one family with sick kids visited...and you know the disaster that was....


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## Emma (Oct 7, 2009)

Both Nik and I have been diagnosed with swine flu. It came out of no where this morning. Its horrible.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 7, 2009)

SocialbFly said:


> Miss Vickie, they are also making you wear a mask for two weeks at work if you get the nasal vaccine...give me the shot....please....wearing masks longer than needed, no way, they suck



No way! Really?? I'll be sure and ask because I sure as hell won't wear the mask, but it's my understanding that the first vaccines available are the mist ones. They keep saying "you can't get the flu from the vaccine" so why do you have to wear a mask??

I caught another ration of shit yesterday from a family friend who was dropping off a patient's four year old kid who was going to stay in the room with the mom and baby. (something we've never allowed -- the poor woman just had surgery, for heaven's sake -- how can she care for her toddler?) Our poor PSA was trying to talk to the lady but Marta's from Ecuador and her English isn't so good and the woman was totally steamrolling her. So like an idiot I stepped in and got both barrels. "What the hell am I supposed to do with him???" she says, in front of the kid. "I'm sorry, ma'am. I know this is really inconvenient. Let me get my charge nurse so that she can better explain our visitor policy during flu season." (I'm such a chicken). This family knew the policy for over a week and chose to play dumb to bend the rules. Ugh. I hate being in the middle of that crap, especially when we're doing it for the protection of all the moms and babies. We admitted another lady with the flu yesterday -- 104 degree fever, chilling, cough. Yeesh, it's bad juju.


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## rainyday (Oct 14, 2009)

Couple other links to add to the pile:


CDC H1N1 recommendations to various groups of patients (asthma, diabetic, etc.)

General H1N1 vaccine info


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 14, 2009)

More grist for the mill. Not especially reassuring but it does poke some pretty well-reasoned holes in the research methodology asserting the effectiveness of vaccinations.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1


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## SocialbFly (Oct 14, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> No way! Really?? I'll be sure and ask because I sure as hell won't wear the mask, but it's my understanding that the first vaccines available are the mist ones. They keep saying "you can't get the flu from the vaccine" so why do you have to wear a mask??
> 
> I caught another ration of shit yesterday from a family friend who was dropping off a patient's four year old kid who was going to stay in the room with the mom and baby. (something we've never allowed -- the poor woman just had surgery, for heaven's sake -- how can she care for her toddler?) Our poor PSA was trying to talk to the lady but Marta's from Ecuador and her English isn't so good and the woman was totally steamrolling her. So like an idiot I stepped in and got both barrels. "What the hell am I supposed to do with him???" she says, in front of the kid. "I'm sorry, ma'am. I know this is really inconvenient. Let me get my charge nurse so that she can better explain our visitor policy during flu season." (I'm such a chicken). This family knew the policy for over a week and chose to play dumb to bend the rules. Ugh. I hate being in the middle of that crap, especially when we're doing it for the protection of all the moms and babies. We admitted another lady with the flu yesterday -- 104 degree fever, chilling, cough. Yeesh, it's bad juju.



sorry i missed this...the kids we work with are immunocompromised, so more likely to get something...i know what they say, but obviously it is being over protective..


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2009)

My mother recently got a regular flu shot and became sick from it. Her neighbor said that every time he gets a vaccine, he contracts the thing he was vaccinated for so that now he only gets half a vaccine. Vick and Di, what do you think about that? I'd love to know your opinions on if it would be effective or not to only get half a vaccine.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 14, 2009)

Tina, I've never heard of a half vaccine. Does he mean a half dose? They tried that with me, with a tetanus vaccine, only it was 1/10 the dose, to see if I would react (I did!) Technically you shouldn't get the flu from the flu vaccine if it's non-live flu. Some of the vaccines are an attenuated (weakened) versions of the live virus so you could, theoretically, get a very weak version of the flu. I'm guessing though that most people who say that they "got sick from the flu" if, actually tested, got another illness that was brewing anyway. Perhaps the vaccine busied their immune system so they were unable to fight it as effectively? Who knows, I sure don't, which is one reason I'm not "rah rah rah everyone get flu shots!" 

Ernest's link was interesting, by the way. It didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but it is disturbing nonetheless.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 22, 2009)

Well, the flu shot fairy came by at work yesterday and I got my H1N1 vaccine -- thimerasol free, thankyouverymuch. So far, so good. Just a little tenderness at the site, but otherwise I feel just fine. 

In the meantime, two more of my nurse friends at work have come down with H1N1. I'm hoping that the vaccine will decrease my chances of getting the disease, but I'm keeping in mind that it's still a good idea to do what I can to support immune function (hides the Halloween oreo behind her back as she types this). Nothing is 100%, and eating well, washing hands and getting good rest are still critically important to keep us healthy.

Yes, Mom...


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 22, 2009)

I soooo want this to be available in my area.  It's not yet, and two of my co-workers have already come down with H1N1 this week.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 22, 2009)

I have a really weird immune system.

I figure at some point I should turn myself over to the CDC to be made into a test subject, but I simply never get any viruses.

Never had any type of flu, never had food poisoning, never even had a cold sore. I had chicken pox as a child but that was honestly the last time I ever contracted anything viral. I had an admin temp job in a doctor's office during a flu epidemic in the region where I was living at the time and I never got so much as a sniffle.

Swine flu? I just don't see worrying about it, given my health history.


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## Sugar (Oct 22, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> I have a really weird immune system.
> 
> I figure at some point I should turn myself over to the CDC to be made into a test subject, but I simply never get any viruses.
> 
> ...



I was just like you. I never got sick, and then I got RA...essentially my immune system is attacking my joints like they're a disease. 

I don't think you'll get that, but something to keep in mind for those of us who have these powerhouse immune systems.

I will get the shot when I can just to be safe.


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## Risible (Oct 23, 2009)

Please, no arguing in the Health Forum. Further inappropriate remarks may result in infractions and/or time-outs.

/mod


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## Frankie (Oct 23, 2009)

Vickie, I was concerned about the mercury in some flu vaccines, but a doctor told me that it's the same amount of mercury as in a tuna sandwich. I was wondering if you knew whether this is true?

Thanks. :kiss2:


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## Teleute (Oct 25, 2009)

It's actually higher in tuna, Frankie. 

Maximum possible mercury in H1N1 vaccine: *2.5 micrograms*
source: CDC H1N1 vaccine information - it's 25 micrograms for a 5mL multi-use bottle, and each dose is 0.5mL, so the mercury in one dose is 25 micrograms/10 doses = 2.5 micrograms.​
Mercury in one serving of chunk light tuna: *6.608 micrograms*
calculation: chunk light tuna contains 0.118 ppm (that's parts per million, or micrograms/gram) of mercury (source: Mercury Levels in Commercial Fish and Shellfish, FDA). One serving of chunk light tuna is 2 ounces, or 56 grams (source: Bumblebee website) - and that's being conservative on the serving size, because the smallest can available is 3 ounces. 56 grams of tuna at 0.118 micrograms/gram of mercury = 56*0.118 = 6.608 micrograms of mercury.​


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 25, 2009)

Okay so when it comes to mercury in vaccines versus a tuna sandwich, we're comparing apples to elephants. The mercury in tuna has been methylated, which makes it a more complicated compound and therefore has to go through more steps, chemically speaking, to be reduced to a form that's absorbable. Ethyl mercury, the kind found in thimerasol, is much more easily taken up by the body, and has an affinity for fatty compounds so it particularly likes things like brain and nerve tissue.

Besides the compounds being different, the route is obviously different as well. The methylated mercury in tuna has to be first extracted from the tuna, once to tuna meat has been broken down, and only then can it be absorbed through the GI tract, which is designed to -- at least to a certain extent -- protect the body from absorbed toxins. Imagine if our bodies were unable to protect us at all from metallic toxins and dangerous microbes; we'd never have survived as a species. Yes, some things make it through and make us sick; but many more things don't. This is in direct opposition to something injected directly into the body. Once it's in the bloodstream it has a ticket to ride anywhere it wants, pretty much, and I believe (though I'm not entirely sure) that it can cross the blood brain barrier.

So, while there may be more mercury in a tuna sandwich, unless you're injecting a tuna sandwich into your veins, the comparisons aren't valid at all. (I hate to disagree with a doc, but this is basic college chemistry).


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## Teleute (Oct 25, 2009)

So, I didn't want to bring it up because I didn't want to come across as attacking those who are wary of the mercury in vaccines. Obviously it's good to reduce your exposure to mercury, and I think it's good to be aware of what's going into your body in general. But...

Yes, you're absolutely right that they're different and are treated differently by the body (although the differences are less significant than one might imagine). However, the methylmercury in fish is more toxic than the ethylmercury in thimerosal (Magos et al 1985). Ethylmercury is excreted in the stool in significant amounts, and is cleared from the blood much faster than methylmercury [Pichichero ME, et al. Lancet 360:1737-1741 (2002)]. BOTH ethyl and methylmercury have the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier; it's not due to lipid solubility, as was once thought - it's because the body mistakes them for the amino acid methionine (study here). Methylmercury accumulates more in the brain and causes more neurological damage, whereas ethylmercury appears to cause more damage to the kidneys. Methylmercury crosses the placental barrier as well. Ingested methylmercury is almost entirely (95%) absorbed by the GI tract (Clarkson, T.W. Recent advances in the toxicology of mercury with emphasis on the alkylmercurials. CRC Crit. Rev. Toxicol., 1:203 (1972).), matching the deposition from ethylmercury. I highly recommend reading this article, as well as this one, if you're interested in learning more about the effects of mercury on the body in all its different forms.

I really hope this doesn't come across as an attack, Vickie - you're clearly intelligent, aware, and generally well-informed, and the points you make there are quite valid for many other compounds/situations/etc. It's great to think things through and not just take someone's word for it, even if they are a doctor. It's just that in this case, there has been research done on the comparative effects of the two, so we don't have to make the assumptions.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 25, 2009)

Teleute, actually mercury toxicity is something I'm not entirely knowledgeable about, despite my long term interest in it. However, it's been a topic of study for my husband, who posts here, who's been studying its affects when it comes to dental fillings, for nearly 20 years. There are a lot of excellent studies that go into the dangers of mercury and its affects on the body when it comes to fillings. I will say that excretion isn't the whole story when it comes to mercury toxicity but that's probably more depth than we can cover here.

I still think that the overall benefit of protection from H1N1 makes it a safer choice than non-vaccination. For most people, the amount of mercury in the vaccines is not a health risk. However, for some people -- like myself, who are allergic to thimerasol -- it is. My beef is that the only reason they need thimerasol is to make vaccines cheaper to produce in multi-dose vials. In single use vials it's not necessary, so why not just make it in single use vials, so that we're taking taking in something that's not even remotely good for us.

If I had more time, I'd be happy to argue your points, Teleute, and produce my own studies to support the point of view that I've come to over the years that I've been listening to this argument. However, this really isn't the place for such a discussion, and I think I answered Frankie's questions, as asked. If you'd like to continue this discussion in PM, though, I'd be happy to.

Have a great day!


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## Frankie (Oct 25, 2009)

Thanks for the responses. Definitely gives me food for thought. 

Vickie, now that you've mentioned it, I do get to wondering about my mercury fillings every once in a while. Another topic for another day, I guess. Thank you for letting all of us benefit from your medical knowledge.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 25, 2009)

Frankie said:


> Thanks for the responses. Definitely gives me food for thought.
> 
> Vickie, now that you've mentioned it, I do get to wondering about my mercury fillings every once in a while. Another topic for another day, I guess. Thank you for letting all of us benefit from your medical knowledge.



You're welcome, honey. My knowledge ain't perfect, and I'm hardly an expert, but I'm happy to share what I do know with whoever has questions. BTW, you've been in my thoughts today. 

This mercury thing is pretty contentious, and there's good science on both sides of the equation. My own approach is to minimize, while living a full life, my exposure to toxins -- of any kind, eaten and injectable. That doesn't mean I refuse to leave my own home, but it does mean I try to be careful. 

I think that, given how dangerous the flu seems to be very early in the season, most people are safer with getting the vaccine, if what we've been told about its safety is to be believed. The thimerasol is an issue for me because of my own bizarre vaccine reactions coupled with my bizarre reaction to contact lens solution containing thimerasol. Most people probably don't have to be quite so careful, at least as far as this vaccine is concerned.

I really hope that their predictions are way off, and that it's not nearly as bad as they think it'll be. But we had a couple of H1N1 positive moms on our small antepartum unit last week which is significant, I think, for a population the size of Anchorage. I don't ever remember having a mom with the flu on our unit before, in the five years I've been at my job. So it's getting a little scary out there...


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## Paul (Oct 26, 2009)

I read in the newspaper today that very obese persons are considered to be in the high risk group to catch H1N1 flu. Obese persons have been strongly advised to get the H1N1 flu shot here in Manitoba.


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## Laura2008 (Oct 26, 2009)

I've never had a flu shot and don't plan on getting it. I'm playing the odds since I haven't had the flu since I was 7 or 8 years old. 

One thing I've noticed is there seems to be a lot of sick people out there working. I was out shopping over the weekend and several cashiers were sneezing and hacking away. I've been compulsively washing my hands a lot lately just to be safe.


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## moore2me (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Guys,

*The problem with the info we are getting on the HINI (also known as swine flu) is that as the data continues to stream in,* *the recommendations are changing. * I have been watching it and it has changed considerably in the last 3-4 months. I have also read your posts and the info in Soshe's Thread in the Lounge & the problem is many of you were given information that was based on knowledge we had months ago.

But, man this thing is a moving target. We are getting hit hard in the US and two groups of people seem to be paying the ultimate price. This is serious . . . our President has issued a alert calling this virus a pandemic (a worldwide epidemic). It is not doing its damage to most of us adults. If we get it, as many posters have noted, you are okay a few days later. What it is doing is killing a extremely high perecentage of children & pregnant women.

*Why they want healthcare workers and childcare workers to get vaccinated is not to protect you - - - it is to protect the children or pregnant women you work with.

Children older than 6 months old should be vaccinated. 

I would not worry about being a vegan this one time. You may be able to save the life of a child or the life of pregnant woman.*


Everyday there are new stories on our local news about little children having died from HINI. I see their pictures on the TV screen nightly. Many towns have pregnant women being hospitalized, some going into comas. Fortunately, in pregnancy, if the baby is far enough along it can be taken and saved. The only thing keeping many sick kids alive in our hospitals are ECMO machines which are limited and expensive. They keep a sick person's lungs and heart going. (Translate into one day we may not have enough to go around. How about where you live?)

I know of three websites that have information I can understand & use on this HINI flu. Of all that is available, the MMWR (from the US CDC) at the top of the list, has the best, most readable, and most organized material.

*Now, the hard facts. In the US at the current time, we only have a fraction of the HINI vaccine that we need. Because the supplies are limited, we have gone to a tiered system of vaccination. They are no longer giving shots to people like myself (over 18 & with a chronic immune disease). They are no longer giving shots to senior citizens. We have to wait until more vaccine is available. Below is the first priority of people to be vaccinated:

&#8226; pregnant women,

&#8226; persons who live with or provide care for infants aged <6 months (e.g., parents, siblings, and daycare providers), 

&#8226; health-care and emergency medical services personnel who have direct contact with patients or infectious material, 

&#8226; children aged 6 months--4 years, and

&#8226; children and adolescents aged 5--18 years who have medical conditions that put them at higher risk for influenza-related complications. (This group includes children with asthma.)*

From http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5810a1.htm 

Once more vaccine becomes available, a second Tier of people will open up.

You can also view info on their parent site, the CDC and the WHO - World Health Organization.

News from WHO - http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/en/index.html

News from CDC &#8211; http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/

WHO issued the following statement in their literature. They are . . ." concerned about current patterns of serious cases and deaths that are occurring primarily among young persons, including the previously healthy and those with pre-existing medical conditions or pregnancy."


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## Inhibited (Oct 27, 2009)

I won't be getting the vaccine, not because i thought about all the pro's and con's, i just never get sick so there is not much point in getting it.


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2009)

I had the H1N1 vaccine last week. The only side effect I had was that I woke in the middle of the night with a headache. No problems since then.
That I can deal with.

Swine Flu I cannot deal with. It would be a catastrophe for me.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 27, 2009)

Inhibited said:


> I won't be getting the vaccine, not because i thought about all the pro's and con's, i just never get sick so there is not much point in getting it.



Not attacking you, Inhibited, I hope you don't see it that way...

But the thing that irks me about this attitude is that even if YOU don't get sick from it, you can get the virus. Even if it doesn't make you sick, you can spread it around to other people... including pregnant women and children, as moore said.

Honestly, I feel like people who do not get this, and who don't have a reason to (if you're allergic to a vaccine component, or are vegan, or object on religious grounds, I understand) are being selfish and irresponsible. Yes, it is absolutely always, always your body and your choice, but in the case of viruses like this YOUR choice can affect others. The problem is we don't see the immediate effects of our actions when we infect someone else. Imagine how quickly (most) people would rush to be vaccinated if, every time you passed the virus on, you could immediately SEE someone else getting sick... if you could SEE a child develop such a severe fever she has to be hospitalized... yeah. Most people aren't heartless. They just aren't thinking things through, IMHO.

I think this is why this is such a hot-button topic for me. I wholeheartedly believe in "my body, my choice..." but what if the choice YOU made means someone else ends up in the hospital?


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## Sugar (Oct 27, 2009)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Not attacking you, Inhibited, I hope you don't see it that way...
> 
> But the thing that irks me about this attitude is that even if YOU don't get sick from it, you can get the virus. Even if it doesn't make you sick, you can spread it around to other people... including pregnant women and children, as moore said.
> 
> ...



I appreciate this view Ginny. I get sick very easily due to my RA treatment so I limit contact with kids and people and I don't go into stores often.

At work (when I was there) there was always someone who just had to be there and was not getting a shot and had 11 kids and low and behold guess who got sick and still showed up?

I don't think vaccines are the end all be all to health, but I do think for something that has killed over a thousand people (mostly healthy young adults) it's a useful tool that I hope people will take advantage of.


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## Inhibited (Oct 27, 2009)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Not attacking you, Inhibited, I hope you don't see it that way...
> 
> But the thing that irks me about this attitude is that even if YOU don't get sick from it, you can get the virus. Even if it doesn't make you sick, you can spread it around to other people... including pregnant women and children, as moore said.
> 
> ...




Hey, thanks for pointing this out to me, a 2 year old lives in the house who is to young to get the injection, i never thought of being a carrier and passing it on to him (and others). I may have to rethink my decision.


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## moore2me (Oct 28, 2009)

Inhibited said:


> Hey, thanks for pointing this out to me, a 2 year old lives in the house who is to young to get the injection, i never thought of being a carrier and passing it on to him (and others). I may have to rethink my decision.



*The MMWR recs say that children older than 6 months should be immunized. This 2 yr old qualifies unless there is another reason other than age (such as allergy to eggs). Little kids can have the nasal mist vaccine instead of shots.*


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## Shosh (Oct 28, 2009)

The Australian Government HINI vaccination website.

http://www.healthemergency.gov.au/internet/healthemergency/publishing.nsf/Content/vaccine


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## Inhibited (Oct 28, 2009)

moore2me said:


> *The MMWR recs say that children older than 6 months should be immunized. This 2 yr old qualifies unless there is another reason other than age (such as allergy to eggs). Little kids can have the nasal mist vaccine instead of shots.*




In Australia they will only give the injection to those who are 10 years and over.


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## Shosh (Oct 28, 2009)

moore2me said:


> *The MMWR recs say that children older than 6 months should be immunized. This 2 yr old qualifies unless there is another reason other than age (such as allergy to eggs). Little kids can have the nasal mist vaccine instead of shots.*



The H1NI vaccination is not approved here in children under ten years of age.


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## moore2me (Oct 28, 2009)

Susannah said:


> The H1NI vaccination is not approved here in children under ten years of age.



Susannah, You are wrong on this one. You may be confusing recommendations about injection of the nasal mist vs. administration of vaccine. Regardless of how children get immunized, *your country too recommends vaccination of children above 6 months of age.*

Look at your Australias pamphlet at this location
http://www.healthemergency.gov.au/internet/healthemergency/publishing.nsf/Content/vaccine-poster

The title is *Get vaccinated for H1N1 Influenza (Swine Flu) Now * (18th September 2009).

Quote  Frontline health care and community workers are at increased risk of getting influenza and of passing it on, so it is important they have the vaccine. *Parents and guardians of infants up to six months old should also ensure they have the vaccine to protect their infant. *

(Quote located on back page of brochure, middle fold)


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## Ruffie (Oct 28, 2009)

I am going back and forth about it all the time too and have to make a decision. ON one hand have seen my husband who works in our provinces biggest high school get the flu shot twice and have those two years with the biggest bout of illness he has ever experienced. And the fact that not sure about how much testing was able to be done for the safety of the vaccine. 

On the other side work in an environment where we see 40-80 kids a night. Some of them without the best hygiene and also some that are pregnant or have young kids they bring to the youth centre. We are always getting hugs and handshakes and deal with some kids who don't remember to cover up when coughing sneezing.

We have one outbreak so far in the southern part of our province and there are a few confirmed cases in our area. So struggling with what to do, currently haven't made up my mind.


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## JerseyGirl07093 (Oct 28, 2009)

Paul said:


> I read in the newspaper today that very obese persons are considered to be in the high risk group to catch H1N1 flu. Obese persons have been strongly advised to get the H1N1 flu shot here in Manitoba.



This is one of the things that scares me. Also they say it is worse for people with compromised immune systems. Does my neuropathy or the medication I take for it compromise me? I'm not sure. I just know that this flu really worries me. I'm the type that worries anyway but this flu has really got me scared way more than usual. I'm scared of getting it and not being able to breathe. Not being able to breathe is always a fear of mine and I guess I'm just feeling extra vulnerable right now.  I want to go into hibernation like a bear!


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 28, 2009)

Inhibited said:


> Hey, thanks for pointing this out to me, a 2 year old lives in the house who is to young to get the injection, i never thought of being a carrier and passing it on to him (and others). I may have to rethink my decision.



I appreciate you being open minded about getting the vaccine. I tell you, I never get the flu vaccine. EVER. It's just a numbers game, and knowing how viruses mutate and the fact that they're just hedging their bets, choosing the most likely culprits from infection half a world away, I've opted not to get it, and I rarely get a "flu". Lots of colds and stuff, but actual influenza? I think I've had it two or three times in my adult life. 

But this vaccine is for a very specific virus that is killing otherwise healthy individuals, and months and months earlier than what we see with your usual garden variety flu. That scares me. It scares me for my patients, my kids, and for myself. They have the virus, they have the vaccine, and so for me, once I found out that I could get one without the ingredient that I know makes me quite ill (and may possibly be what's responsible for the anaphylaxis from the tetanus vaccine I got as a kid), I was ready to give it a try. Even if I did okay with it, I take care of little babies. I'm good with my hand washing, but nothing is 100%.



Ruffie said:


> I am going back and forth about it all the time too and have to make a decision. ON one hand have seen my husband who works in our provinces biggest high school get the flu shot twice and have those two years with the biggest bout of illness he has ever experienced. And the fact that not sure about how much testing was able to be done for the safety of the vaccine.
> 
> On the other side work in an environment where we see 40-80 kids a night. Some of them without the best hygiene and also some that are pregnant or have young kids they bring to the youth centre. We are always getting hugs and handshakes and deal with some kids who don't remember to cover up when coughing sneezing.
> 
> We have one outbreak so far in the southern part of our province and there are a few confirmed cases in our area. So struggling with what to do, currently haven't made up my mind.



Obviously everyone has to make their own best decision. But kids are germ factories. That's one of the reasons we aren't allowing them on our unit at ALL. Anyone who is around kids is, I think, especially likely to get it so if I worked with kids in those circumstances, I'd get it. And like you guys know, I'm not on the "everyone must be vaccinated" soapbox.

At least it's not so prevalent in your locale so you have time to think. We're losing nurses left and right, and caring for patients with H1N1 regularly so it's literally under our noses! 



JerseyGirl07093 said:


> This is one of the things that scares me. Also they say it is worse for people with compromised immune systems. Does my neuropathy or the medication I take for it compromise me? I'm not sure. I just know that this flu really worries me. I'm the type that worries anyway but this flu has really got me scared way more than usual. I'm scared of getting it and not being able to breathe. Not being able to breathe is always a fear of mine and I guess I'm just feeling extra vulnerable right now.  I want to go into hibernation like a bear!



Depending on what you're on and how it works, you may be at risk. Anyone with a chronic illness -- autoimmune, diabetes, MS, etc -- is at risk for getting especially ill from this virus. It's a biggee.

I have my concerns about the safety of the vaccine, too, believe me folks. But so far there is no reason to believe that this vaccine is any less safe than the seasonal flu vaccine that many people get without problem. I'm definitely on the look out for any kind of trends toward side effects from the vaccine, but if there are any, they're not documented.


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## Ruffie (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks Vickie, what you said was echoed tonight for me. I talked with our nurse who does the needle exchange program/aids activist as she was in for a van shift tonight. She is a straight talker and I really like her alot and value her advice so thought I would bring up the subject with her. There are cases confirmed in some of our city schools now as well as a few people who have it throughout the city. She is going to get it and has weighed the risks thoroughly for all of her clients and versed herself well in the risks for all people. She figures I should get it with the clientele we deal with and offered to give me the shot herself if I popped into the clinic. I can get mine starting Tuesday.


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## jcas50 (Nov 29, 2009)

I work in a Community Health Center, so I get all vaccines as soon as they are offered. While I do not have a lot of direct patient contact, I am in the buildings with sick people every day and figure I can use all the help I can get. I am not nearly as scientific and erudite in my reasoning as many others, but since I spend my life providing health care for the poor, I figure my heart is in the right place. For whatever it is worth, my advice is to get the shot.


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## luscious_lulu (Nov 30, 2009)

I got my H1N1 shot. I had a sore arm for a few days, but no other side effects.


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## TallFatSue (Dec 14, 2009)

A couple months ago I got the regular flu shot, but not the H1N1 shot because it's been hard to find. Instead I've been washing my hands often, and I have a big bottle of hand sanitizer on my desk and a small bottle in my purse. I'm a little concerned due to the rounds of Christmas parties with all the hugging, kissing, shaking hands etc. both coming and going, but so far so good. Several of my nieces, nephews, cousins etc. (or I should say grand-nieces etc.) love to sit in their big fat Aunt Sue's lap, and 1 or 2 managed to sneeze or cough in my face too. 

PS. Saturday some of the kiddos were also rough-housing with their uncles at a Christmas party, and there was a minor, shall we say, "incident" when a certain nephew landed on me. "Uh, Bobby, I know you love to sit in my lap but you're 27 now..."


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## Rojodi (Dec 14, 2009)

A week ago, my son received a free H1N1 vaccine from the county health department because umm, let's say, that all the schools in the county have had outbreaks of illnesses, worst of all, so far, has been a horrendous sinus infection - the parents have been hit the worst. He received the live, up the nose vaccination. No side effects.


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