# "I'm really concerned about your health....." Friend or Foe?????



## Theatrmuse/Kara (Jul 24, 2007)

Well, it has happened again. If I had a quarter for each time some well meaning friend or family member has spoke these words to me over the past 52 years.....I would be RICH!

Last night I went to my weekly rehearsal of a woman's chorus called Womansong here in Asheville. This is a wonderful eclectic group. A place where I go to be myself and not be judged. Last night, I was on stage singing a duet with another large woman and we rocked the place. Since I have been having difficulty of late with arthritis, I have not attended in a few weeks or so. While singing, I felt my recently slightly depressed soul soar and was feeling soooooooooo wonderful about life and about myself even!

At break, it happened to me again. A friend came up to me and asked to speak to me privately. She then proceeds to give me the "I'm VERY concerned about your health and it appears that you have gained some weight and I am really worried. You are having trouble with your knees (hello, arthritis???) and have you considered weight loss surgery?"

We have another Womansong member who had the wls and lost the weight BUT also lost kidney function and is now on the transplant list....I don't consider her story a wls success.......silly me! Anyway, I didn't get too upset while talking to my "friend" but it ruined the second half of the rehearsal for me. 

What is wrong with some people.........do they believe they are informing you of something you have not considered????? We live in these bodies everyday of our lives.......why must they feel the need to dampen our positive spirit in such a way.

Another friend offered to go beat her up.............but, LOL, I told her maybe next time! GEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My two cents.............or should I say "pounds",
Kara


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## Ruffie (Jul 24, 2007)

Is simply say"Why thank you for being concerned about me. I appreciate that you care, but I do keep a close watch on my health with my Doctor"
Usually ends the conversation and any future ones from that concerned person and anyone in earshot to that conversation.
R


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## Waxwing (Jul 24, 2007)

Ruffie said:


> Is simply say"Why thank you for being concerned about me. I appreciate that you care, but I do keep a close watch on my health with my Doctor"
> Usually ends the conversation and any future ones from that concerned person and anyone in earshot to that conversation.
> R



I think that's a great response. For the most part people are genuinely trying to be helpful when they say these things, and probably aren't aware of how it comes out.


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## Zandoz (Jul 24, 2007)

As long as they are not obnoxious or nagging about it, it does not bother me at all...I'd rather be the object of concern than disdain.


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## Keb (Jul 24, 2007)

It can feel insidious because we get it so often--and so often from people who are horribly hard on their own bodies or minds in some way, too--but I think most people who pull this line are really sincere. After all, they get reminded by the news and other media constantly that we're in an obesity epidemic and everyone who is more than a size 0 is going to die of diabetes within a year; who wouldn't panic? It's annoying but it's meant well all the same.


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## SamanthaNY (Jul 24, 2007)

I think it's a mistake to assume that people inherently _know _how you feel about WLS. Perhaps concentrating more on the motivation and less on the actual comments might make conversations of this type easier to swallow.

I do think people who do this type of thing are just expressing concern, and personally, I think the intention behind it is a very nice thing. They don't live in your body and don't know your thoughts - but they see you in pain, and they feel empathy and concern. While their attempts seem bumbling and intrusive to you, I'm sure they think they ARE giving you some vital information that might help you. Pissing you off is the last thing on their minds, I'd bet. 

I understand how frustrating it can be - every unfat person hears news snippets about WLS and in their ignorance, think it's the answer for ALL fat people. So they feel they're being helpful in spreading the word, especially if they see someone in pain (cuz in their minds, _"WLS *fixes* that!!"_). It's probably not outrageous for all of us to have a patent reply such as Ruffie suggested.


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## butch (Jul 24, 2007)

I don't know, the adding on the bit about WLS would have pissed me off because it seems a bit tactless. Are they a physician? Then how would they know if WLS would affect the health issues you might be having right now? Leaving it off shows that the person is truly concerned with you holistically, but including it shows that they may be more interested in being opinionated instead of being sincerely concerned for your health in all its complexity.

And I don't know that I would trust their motives. For those of you who have read Marilyn Wann's "Fat!So?" you might remember the part where she talks about how many times if you question someone close enough, and give enough examples of your state of good health as a fat person, they expose that they aren't really concerned about your health but using that as a cover to express their dislike of fat. I wish these people were as concerned with the infant mortality rate in this country, for example, then they are with the size of my ass, if 'health' truly is their main concern. 

I know she's your friend, Kara, but she must have known that she'd kill your joy with that statement, and that makes me sad.


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## CrankySpice (Jul 24, 2007)

You know, I had to think about my response to this for a while before writing. While my knee-jerk reaction is to go along with what the majority has said herethat these words are spoken with good intentions and to cut the person some slack for just caringthe more I think about it, the more I disagree with that judgement.

As the OP states, it isnt as though this is something that the person being approached isnt already aware ofI could totally buy the good intentions if it were, say, about a strange colored mole on the back of my arm that I probably cant see. But a fat person knows very well they are fat, and knows very well the associated risks that go along with being fat, and also knows quite well the options available to make themselves less fat. So it isnt news. I think it is analogous to asking a person with a missing limb if theyve considered prosthetics. Do ya think they dont know fake limbs exist? 

Really, it is just a passive aggressive way of saying I know you are different and Im going tell you just that so I can feel superior about my knowledge and/or own personal condition. But Im going to word it in such a way that if you do anything but agree with me, youll look defensive and rude.

So I dont buy the good intentions. Not one little bit. My family has learned long ago that my weight is NOT a topic up for discussion. Most of my friends are fat, so it really never comes up. And I have, in my own way, let my co-workers know that it is not an issue up for discussion, either. Although I do have one co-worker whom I just knowI just KNOWis going to bring it up someday. She just cant help herself. 

When it does come up, my usual response is Well, Im just about the healthiest person I know. Great blood work, no joint issues, so I cant complain! But I know that, sooner or later, Im not going to be able to restrain myself and will come back with some kind of response to put them on the spot. Hopefully it is my evil co-worker. I cant wait.


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## loren_a_e (Jul 24, 2007)

I find it irritating and the perfect venue to bring up the concept of boundaries in friendships.


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## Ruffie (Jul 24, 2007)

I have a really good best friend that is a guy. He is one of the people who really helped me believe that I was beautiful despite my weight. He called me on it, remanded me of what he sees and never let me put myself down even jokingly. He had no agenda for doing so, he is married and not a FA his wife is a petite little brunette, but he has dated girls of all sizes. 
He and I were talking one day abut the weight prejudice and the potential health problems that I might face(arthritis on both sides of family as well as diabetes). He said have you ever considered weight loss surgery and I said no because of the risks associated with it, the costs and the huge waiting lists here in my province. And I said I would feel weird being a thin person cause I have always been fat and "How do you know if you've never tried it?"
Now I could take huge offense to that and say well all he said to me about being beautiful and sexy and strong and healthy was a lie, but instead I chose to take it as his caring about me. He wants the best for me and loves me enough to want me to be healthy and around for a good number of years. He has never brought it up again. 
Am I saying that there aren't weight bigots that want you to fit in with everyone else? Of course not. I am saying that jumping to conclusions can make people lose good friends who should be able to speak openly with you about their concern for you. If you freak on people before mulling it over and looking at their motivation they are punished for caring for you. Had I taken that initial shock of what he said and gotten angry with him and told him off for even suggesting that I do invasive surgery to alter my body mass I would have missed the point. 
Many people are so tired of being hassled about their weight that they become militant about anyone suggesting anything. DO I want acceptance as I am yes. But I also do NOT believe that every person who suggests something is out to belittle my fatness. I am an intelligent perceptive person and I think I can tell the difference as can many fat folks I know.
Kara if what your friend said truly hurt you maybe a discussion with them about that would be helpful. They may have had no idea that it would bother you or ruin your evening. Go with your gut on that and sort out in your mind what you felt your friend meant by what they had to say.
R


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jul 24, 2007)

"You must spread some reputation around before giving any more to Cranky Spice."

So let me just say that I think she's right on target.


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## butch (Jul 24, 2007)

You know, I can see both sides to this discussion, but the one thing I can't really understand is why this woman choose the time she did to say this? Couldn't she see how much pleasure Kara was having during her duet? If you're genuinely concerned, then ask your friend out for coffee afterwards, and have a respectful conversation there, not during a social outing that Kara had not been to in awhile, and obviously derives much pleasure from. A friend would recognize these things, and act with care.

And, what if Kara's response had been "Oh my, yes, my health is not good right now, it's troubling me, and I'd really like to talk to someone who cares about it" does the friend think during the break at the choir rehearsal is a good time to start up this conversation? Dealing with people who have chronic health issues has taught me that when someone who is in ill health is participating in an activity that brings them pleasure, they almost forget their health issues and that those moments are a true blessing. Don't go and ruin someone else's joyful escapism with questions about WLS, OK?

And as loren says, friends do need to be taught boundaries, and it is a shame how often we have to do that about things like WLS.


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## Jane (Jul 24, 2007)

Of couse, you could say, "Yes, I'm taking up smoking in order to lose weight."


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## SoCoCare (Jul 24, 2007)

It's called 'tact.' It's hard to believe that Kara's friend was coming to her from a place of genuine concern and sincerity when she chose to do it during, what I'm assuming, was a 10-15 minute break in the middle of choir practice. Granted, at the very least, Kara was taken aside to have the convo, but it was neither the time, nor the place to go there. I don't think I would question the motives of Kara's friend as much if she asked how Kara was doing and got more of a feel for her situation (and Kara could've explained about her problems with arthritis) before just spewing forth her suggestion of WLS. 

Regardless, Kara, I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. Especially after coming off of such a high. I hope it doesn't cause any anxiety in going back. Sounds like a wonderful place(!!), and I'd hate for this situation to ruin it for you. Keep your head up.


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## Sandie S-R (Jul 24, 2007)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> "You must spread some reputation around before giving any more to Cranky Spice."
> 
> So let me just say that I think she's right on target.



That's ok Doc, I repped her for both of us. I think Cranky is right on the money as well. What is it about being fat that gives people the assumed license to invade our privacy? My "health" is no one's concern but mine and my Doctors. And even the Doctor is questionable. 

Seriously, it's not my "health" that the butinsky is concerned about, it's my fat. Period. My fat offends them, and they want me to feel shamed into "doing something about it". It is never about genuine "concern". It is a way for the person to feel superior over the fat person. Cranky is clearly right when she said it was a passive agressive way of speaking to a fat person. 

No, the "health" thing is never a excuse for someone being rude and offensive. 

My fat. My health. My body. We're not discussing it. So, how's the weather?


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 24, 2007)

SamanthaNY said:


> I think it's a mistake to assume that people inherently _know _how you feel about WLS. Perhaps concentrating more on the motivation and less on the actual comments might make conversations of this type easier to swallow.
> 
> I do think people who do this type of thing are just expressing concern, and personally, I think the intention behind it is a very nice thing. They don't live in your body and don't know your thoughts - but they see you in pain, and they feel empathy and concern. While their attempts seem bumbling and intrusive to you, I'm sure they think they ARE giving you some vital information that might help you. Pissing you off is the last thing on their minds, I'd bet.
> 
> I understand how frustrating it can be - every unfat person hears news snippets about WLS and in their ignorance, think it's the answer for ALL fat people. So they feel they're being helpful in spreading the word, especially if they see someone in pain (cuz in their minds, _"WLS *fixes* that!!"_). It's probably not outrageous for all of us to have a patent reply such as Ruffie suggested.



I agree -- a loved one has said something about my weight recently and in the moment, I was upset/frustrated/confused, but once I took a look at the situation, I was able to understand that the words were coming from a place of love, instead of a place that wishes to demean or ostracize. And I firmly believe that sometimes we need to be saved from ourselves, though I can't speak for the OP -- I know that it made me take a closer look at my health and what I am/was doing to my body...not because I need to lose weight, per se, but because numbers and the way my bod feels doesn't lie. So, I can keep saying, it's my choice, it's my choice, if I want to...but the physical me isn't buying it.


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## Theatrmuse/Kara (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks for all the brillant comments! It helps to gain perspective. You all are a great sounding board and I KNOW most understand how I am feeling.



butch said:


> And, what if Kara's response had been "Oh my, yes, my health is not good right now, it's troubling me, and I'd really like to talk to someone who cares about it" does the friend think during the break at the choir rehearsal is a good time to start up this conversation? Dealing with people who have chronic health issues has taught me that when someone who is in ill health is participating in an activity that brings them pleasure, they almost forget their health issues and that those moments are a true blessing. Don't go and ruin someone else's joyful escapism with questions about WLS, OK?



Yes, Butch.......it is true, I wondered why she chose that particular time to speak to me about such a personal issue....immediately after a standing ovation from everyone.....who knows?

So, I am choosing to believe that she is a good friend and was well intentioned in her comments. I believe I will speak to her again about last night and explain that Womansong is a time for me to forget about my size and just enjoy music and life. Let's see how this comes out in the end.
Thanks again, Kara


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## T_Devil (Jul 24, 2007)

People don't comment on my weight. The last time someone did was years ago. I haven't spoken to them since. If someone were to make a comment about my weight, I would simply say:

_I'm fine. I'm healthy. I can take care of myself. If you're concerned about my weight, then you are concerned about the wrong issue in my life, so if you speak to me again about my weight, it will be the last time we speak. If you want an issue to be worried about, how about the issue of my willingness to cut you out of my life so quickly? Let's work on that instead._

I have zero tolerence for people that can't prioritize their concerns. If my weight is an issue to them, then they don't really know me and I don't have the time nor the desire to keep them around. I have enough friends.


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## Ruby Ripples (Jul 24, 2007)

CrankySpice said:


> You know, I had to think about my response to this for a while before writing. While my knee-jerk reaction is to go along with what the majority has said herethat these words are spoken with good intentions and to cut the person some slack for just caringthe more I think about it, the more I disagree with that judgement.
> 
> As the OP states, it isnt as though this is something that the person being approached isnt already aware ofI could totally buy the good intentions if it were, say, about a strange colored mole on the back of my arm that I probably cant see. But a fat person knows very well they are fat, and knows very well the associated risks that go along with being fat, and also knows quite well the options available to make themselves less fat. So it isnt news. I think it is analogous to asking a person with a missing limb if theyve considered prosthetics. Do ya think they dont know fake limbs exist?
> 
> ...



I absolutely couldn't agree more.


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## Sandie S-R (Jul 24, 2007)

One more point. The "I'm concerned about your health" comment, is making a major assumtion about somone based on the way they look. The person is assuming that there is something "wrong" with the person's health based on the fact that they are fat.

When is that OK? When is it OK to assume anything about anyone based on their appearance, be it fat, gay, black, woman, man, chinese, etc.?

It also assumes that the fat person is ignorant of their health, isn't doing anything about their health, doesn't care about their health, isn't healthy just as they are, etc., (ad nauseum).

No matter how you look at it, this is just wrong.


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## butch (Jul 24, 2007)

Sandie S-R said:


> One more point. The "I'm concerned about your health" comment, is making a major assumtion about somone based on the way they look. The person is assuming that there is something "wrong" with the person's health based on the fact that they are fat.
> 
> When is that OK? When is it OK to assume anything about anyone based on their appearance, be it fat, gay, black, woman, man, chinese, etc.?
> 
> ...



Right on, Sandie. Both your posts laid out what is so troublesome about these kinds of statements, and why, even in the best of intentions, these statements have unintended consequences that do presume somebody's exteriority says something about the state of their well-being.


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## CrankySpice (Jul 24, 2007)

Sandie S-R said:


> One more point. The "I'm concerned about your health" comment, is making a major assumtion about somone based on the way they look. The person is assuming that there is something "wrong" with the person's health based on the fact that they are fat.
> 
> When is that OK? When is it OK to assume anything about anyone based on their appearance, be it fat, gay, black, woman, man, chinese, etc.?
> 
> ...



EXACTLY, Sandie. It has never occured to me to pull my friends who are black aside and tell them I'm worried about their risk for sickle-cell anemia, and have they asked their doctor about it yet? Same thing.


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## Keb (Jul 24, 2007)

I think it depends a lot on how close you are to the person and how often they pull said line on you, actually. 

When my sister says it, I believe it...when the second cousin I've seen three times in my life pulls me aside to tell me she's got the solution (WLS that her sister later said made her positively unhealthy, don't you ever dare try it, to me) it feels quite different...and different again for a distant friend or near stranger.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 24, 2007)

I always feel like a devil and want to start acting surprised... saying "I'm fat? I really am fat????????? OMG, I had NO IDEA!! Thank you for telling me because you just saved my life" 


Btw, my mother keeps pushing for me to go to a doctor and get diet pills because she is so concerned for my health...... she keeps doing this even after I explain about the heart problems and other complications that can arise from some of those drugs. Plus, I took them previously- I lost 7 pounds and was thrown into depression from them. None of this matters to her..... I just need some magic pill to fix me and my fatty, fat, fat......... "for my health" of course


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## Jane (Jul 24, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I always feel like a devil and want to start acting surprised... saying "I'm fat? I really am fat????????? OMG, I had NO IDEA!! Thank you for telling me because you just saved my life"
> 
> 
> Btw, my mother keeps pushing for me to go to a doctor and get diet pills because she is so concerned for my health...... she keeps doing this even after I explain about the heart problems and other complications that can arise from some of those drugs. Plus, I took them previously- I lost 7 pounds and was thrown into depression from them. None of this matters to her..... I just need some magic pill to fix me and my fatty, fat, fat......... "for my health" of course



Maybe Mom is hoping you'll bring some home to her.

(I know, chitty of me, but I've taken enough diet pills to run around the world 700 times. I have the heart valves to prove it, too.)


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## Midori (Jul 24, 2007)

Interesting question. I just posted my WLS experience on the board at the bottom of the discussion forums yesturday so I won't go into that much here ... if you are interested it's there ... but a rather lengthy read.

I suppose my response would depend upon a great many factors including my mood at the moment. There was a time when I would have been so uncomfortable ... well let's be honest, humiliated and miserable that someone had done that ... that I would have been too hurt to respond with any indignation ... after all ... it's not like I can deny that I'm fat ... right? I am generally a rather vocal and outspoken person however that has never extended over into my size issues because I am vocal and passionate about things I believe in ... and for a long time ... I just didn't believe in me so ... in your shoes ... I would have likely had a very meek reply.

This is not to say that I think a rude or hostile reply is ALWAYS warranted ... but it is to say that after experiencing a "failed" WLS, my responses today would be matter of fact to educational at best. Likely the person would get far more information than they bargained for and I'd bet that after our discussion they would never so casually make the same suggestions again. IF those suggestions or comments were done thoughtlessly but with good intentions 

I'd like to give most people the benefit of the doubt and generally education and perspective changes go further in helping the well meaning person understand the gross assumptions that are obvious in their comments ... than a really scathing retort. However, as I grow more comfortable with who I am and what I look like ... depending on my -read- of a person's motives ... they are more likely to get a response from me that would include ... 

"Do you have any idea how arrogant and presumptuous that statement or question is? What gives you the idea that you have any right to comment to me about such a personal matter? I think you have a really unflattering dress on and your hair is all wrong ... does that mean that just because I am concerned that you are a fashion victim ... I have the right to critique or offer to redress you? How much more personal are your comments to me than that? Look lady ... you have NO idea what I've been through and it's really absolutely NONE of your business." 

Or something to that effect. ~shrugs~ Probably not nearly witty enough but that's just me. I could think of a million one liners but most of the time I try to handle situations like that in hopes of being the LAST one to have to endure said person's ignorant, if well meaning comments. If I can spare someone else ... I usually figure I'm big enough ~laughs~ to take one for the team so to speak. ~winks~ Unfortunately without some enlightenment ... most people are narrow-minded and arrogant enough to think that WE were the ones with the rude reply and they were simply trying to be nice. Without a little help ... they will never see in a snippy one liner how insulting they've been ... it's easier to write it off as WE were not only FAT but grossly rude as well. Amazing the arrogance ... 

bright blessings to you!

&#9834;midori


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## AnnMarie (Jul 24, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I always feel like a devil and want to start acting surprised... saying "I'm fat? I really am fat????????? OMG, I had NO IDEA!! Thank you for telling me because you just saved my life"
> 
> 
> Btw, my mother keeps pushing for me to go to a doctor and get diet pills because she is so concerned for my health...... she keeps doing this even after I explain about the heart problems and other complications that can arise from some of those drugs. Plus, I took them previously- I lost 7 pounds and was thrown into depression from them. None of this matters to her..... I just need some magic pill to fix me and my fatty, fat, fat......... "for my health" of course



Next time Mom suggests that, remind her how many people DIED after the last big "diet pill" magic worked its way into our homes. Phen/Fen (or whichever way it was) caused chronic pulmonary hypertension... nice trade off for the majority of the users who were looking to lose 20-60lbs. 

Bah.


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## Zoom (Jul 24, 2007)

People, even friends, can be riff-raff and be more interested in making a show of caring rather than actually stopping to think of whether their words might be hurtful.

I'm polite-- I don't keep very many friends, so I offend fewer people that way.


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## TallFatSue (Jul 24, 2007)

On those thankfully infrequent occasions when someone expresses concern about my weight and my health, I usually thank them and then turn the tables. Kinda like: "Yes, I know that obesity has certain health risks so I watch myself and have regular exams. My doctor says I'm healthier than many of her other patients who assume they're healthy simply because they're thin and therefore abuse their bodies. Do you have regular checkups too?" Then the ball is back in their court, and usually they let the matter drop.  

Chances are the nosy self-appointed health police is a family member at one of our reunions. My mother still comments about my weight, but mostly to criticize how big my boobs, belly and butt are. She knows I'm healthy.


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## squurp (Jul 24, 2007)

Ok, I agree with a couple of things said here. first off, voicing concerns about one's health is making assumptions based on visual appearance with little or no scientific basis. 

Also, I agree that weight should not be a topic for discussion. 

Simply put, good intentions are not an excuse for bad behavior. it is unacceptable for someone to voice concerns in this manner, and, unless someone is your doctor (and therefore you are paying for your advice), it is completely unacceptable for someone to suggest this (unless you ask). 

Now, in my opinion a response to this would be:

"pardon me, but you've mention no evidence that you should be concerned about my health. Furthermore, you are neither a doctor, nor are you my doctor. It is completely inappropriate for you to address me in this manner, and if you were a good friend, then you would have respected these boundaries. I understand that your intentions may be good, but they are very misplaced. I hope we don't have this misunderstanding in the future."

Good luck ya'll


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## BeaBea (Jul 24, 2007)

Hey Kara,

I think this post has given up lots of great responses but in balance I mostly come down on the side of the people wondering what motivated -that- question at such a happy moment for you. Its not the slightly misplaced concern that bothers me as lots of ill-educated people assume anyone larger is both about to drop dead on the spot - but the timing raises every one of my hackles. 

Even if it was a truly legitimate concern and absolutely needed to have a friend intervene (possible examples might be 'is the person a victim of domestic violence', 'about to drink drive' or 'suicidally depressed') I still dont believe a true friend with pure intentions would raise it at that exact place and time.

Its possible that they werent even conscious of it but I feel this was more about putting you in your place than genuinely helping you out. I think I'd be tempted to stick closer to the friend who offered to beat her up for you 

Tracey xx


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## Theatrmuse/Kara (Jul 24, 2007)

BeaBea said:


> I think I'd be tempted to stick closer to the friend who offered to beat her up for you Tracey xx



LOLOL, Soooooo true........and TOTALLY doable!
Hugs, Kara


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## lemmink (Jul 25, 2007)

I think that kind of thing is just unbelievably offensive--I still have trouble accepting that people SAY that kind of thing.


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## cute_obese_girl (Jul 25, 2007)

Theatrmuse/Kara said:


> Yes, Butch.......it is true, I wondered why she chose that particular time to speak to me about such a personal issue....immediately after a standing ovation from everyone.....who knows?



I smell jealousy. Her timing reeks of wanting to take you down a peg after a clearly great performance. I don't know how good of a friend this woman is to you, but if she chose this place and this moment, I would say not a good one.

I'm sorry she tried to ruin it for you. I hope you continue to blow her away with your vocals


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## QuasimodoQT (Jul 25, 2007)

I think the OP's situation is a bit ambiguous, and cogent arguments on both sides have been posted.

But I can think of one time where someone asked me about WLS, leaving no doubt that she was being arch, smug, condescending, you name it.

I bristled hard, but confined myself to: "Wow, and I had been thinking about how to approach you about all the damage your tanning is doing. Why don't we trade Google searches and leave it at that?" 

She didn't like that one bit, and I didn't particularly care. I don't think she'd ever said a truly civil word to me anyway. But it's easier where there's such a "glass houses" scenario.

I'll be looking forward to an update from the OP!


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## liz (di-va) (Jul 25, 2007)

I think the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that it doesn't matter what motivated an inappropriate comment like that, it was still inappropriate. I think there are a lot of different ways to address/diffuse/confront/gently tweak/aggressively pursue/ignore/scream about/whatever this situation, but that this kind of comment is basically how sizeism is perpetuated in this country. This is the allowed channel for that kinda prejudice (health concerns). I'm sure it had more to do with her than it did with you, as any comment like that (not just weight) usually does, but so what.

No, I don't think people are evil--always--but has a comment like that EVER been helpful to anybody, ever? Ever? Really. Has a comment like that ever done anything but made somebody feel bad about themselves?

This situation is obviously something I'd say a lot of us have in common who frequent this site. The last time somebody I cared about/vice versa chose to nuke me with the "I'm so concerned" speech was my mother, and I ended up yelling (yes, sorry, yelling, how uncool) at her: "AND...WHAT? YES, AND? AND THEN WHAT?" I am fat, and....what, then? How, what, what am I supposed to do about that? What is it that she thinks could happen? How much bigger/sicker do people want us to get in the name of dieting/WLS? (Sorry, personal prejudice there--YMMV.)

I'll tell you what else exhausts me. The fact that the burden of education in these situations always lies with us. Your friend should know better. I have a few friends who've hurt me deeply by saying that stuff too, and it can be a little baffling to know where to start to address their thinking. After all, if _they_ don't get it...

Your singin' group sounds great, Kara


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## LoveBHMS (Jul 25, 2007)

I think if somebody is truly concerned about your health, then s/he is a friend.

I am addressing this more as far as a person's concern for another's health and not whether or not WLS is appropriate.

First off, there is the whole issue of mental health which has not been addressed here. Any checklist of symptoms of depression will include "changes in eating habits" as a possible symptom. If a friend gains a lot of weight in a short period of time, and especially if there are other symptoms present, I don't see where it's wrong to express concern in the same way you would do if you thought a friend were starving or self mutilating or consuming drugs or drinking or gambling too much. Additionally, there are serious eating disorders such as Compulsive Eating or Binge Eating Disorders that can be very harmful if not treated, and weight gain *might* indicate that.

Secondly, it is possible to see a person suffering from ill effects of weight such as having joint pain, decreasing mobility, or shortness of breath. Is it really right to sit idly by while a friend's health declines and not say anything? There are also some health problems such as lymphedema which are exacerbated by excess weight; I have a family member who suffers from this, and it difficult for those that care about her to see her maintaining a high weight, knowing that losing some would help the condition.

While it may be true that a person does not have your best interests at heart when making such remarks or may be speaking out of jealousy or pettiness, this is not always the case.


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## Jon Blaze (Jul 25, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think if somebody is truly concerned about your health, then s/he is a friend.
> 
> I am addressing this more as far as a person's concern for another's health and not whether or not WLS is appropriate.
> 
> ...


That is exactly right. The thing is, however, regardless of one's intention or not: They have to comment in a tactful manner. 

From what I assume, Kara has been large for a long time, and while yes it is highly accurate to equate added weight with exacerbation of certain conditions (Which is really all you can say for it in regards to health without some sort of observation), they still came up in a manner that while it may have been good on paper, was executed in a manner that we can conclude wasn't the greatest.

It is right for one to have concern with the health of a loved one of some sort, but those people that love you should accept you regardless. Comments on health conditions should be open, but they should be the last people to pull any negativity on you.

I think what would have been better was a larger explanation of the whole thing like:

"Can I talk to you for a second? 
Look: I'm well aware that you have problems with your arthritic conditions. There's many routes you can go to alleviate some of the pain. One of them that I think would help you is ( ). Doing this would ( ). This is my suggestion: I mean no disrespect."


Weight bigots, the like, and most people in society analyze this situation as always being valid because they equate being overweight/obese with being automatically unhealthy. Thusly, their commentary is usually not considered as being wrong, regardless if they are a health care professional, have good intentions, or not. I personally think execution can have a lot more strength in determining an outcome in situations like these, than intention in itself. Usually when the words "I'm concerned with your health" are uttered early along in a conversation like this, you can sometimes know where it's going to go.

I think the main thing about this is that if you have a certain condition, they expect you to have a life of loathing, rather than you being able to live well with it (While you may or may not be attempting to alleviate it in some way).

And the people that stated the thing about being black: That's exactly right. You can equate that with this situation, because that is a parameter people go by, and they would expect you let it run your life accordingly.

I'm at risk for sickle cell, high blood pressure, I also may be on my way at getting plantar fascittis, tendonitis, and arthiritis. BOO HOOOO!!!! BOO HOO!!! I SHOULD SIT IN MY ROOM AND CRY FOREVARRRRRR!  

Good message though.


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## BeaBea (Jul 25, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think if somebody is truly concerned about your health, then s/he is a friend.



I completely agree - but I still feel that a person with a sincere concern would surely want to address the subject in the way that was most like to get them listened to.

I hear what you're saying but I think interrupting our Diva in the middle of her curtain calls smacks of someone who wanted to deliver a lecture and didn't really give a damn about whether or not Kara's health was improved overall as a result.

Just my thoughts

Tracey xx


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## Waxwing (Jul 25, 2007)

I really don't know how I feel about this. On the one hand, I think that if approached tactfully it can signify genuine concern, but it is a rare situation which would be intimate enough to make this appropriate. 

On the other hand...they're telling you that they're concerned largely because of the prevalent view that fat is always unhealthy and will kill you full stop. But unless you've been living in a cave for 30 years you have already heard that yourself. Your response isn't going to be, 'omg really!?', so the statement "I'm worried about you" has no point. 

If you believe that someone is *actively endangering* his or her health, like in the case of, say, a raging alcoholic, then an intervention might be required, because they may not be able to stop on their own. 

I'm pretty sure we don't need fat interventions, though. It's a different issue. They're not "saving you from yourself" they're saying that THEY don't believe you to be healthy because you're fat. It's one thing, *maybe*, to ask if you have joint pain, or any other attendant complications, but to just say "hey I'm worried because you're fat" is senseless. And really? It's not their business. 

I smoke. Sometimes people tell me that it's bad for me. REALLY? YOU THINK? Oh wow I totally didn't know that! Thanks for telling me I should quit, nosy!


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## mateo4531 (Jul 25, 2007)

I say foe. It's actually sad when people are so uninformed and brainwashed by our culture into believing that it's unhealthy to be fat. I guess it's much easier to latch onto that idea since body fat is so readily visible whereas black lungs are not. 

Don't cave to her! Stay strong!


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## Waxwing (Jul 25, 2007)

mateo4531 said:


> I say foe. It's actually sad when people are so uninformed and brainwashed by our culture into believing that it's unhealthy to be fat. I guess it's much easier to latch onto that idea since body fat is so readily visible whereas black lungs are not.
> 
> Don't cave to her! Stay strong!



"Brainwashed" is overstating it. There are certain complications which increase with weight. But that still does not give someone the right to comment on it. 

And in my previous post I just said how people always think it's their business to comment on smoking. So it is very similar, visible or no.


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## saucywench (Jul 25, 2007)

I read Kara's post and some of the comments yesterday when the thread was fairly new. I have to say that I become enraged when I hear of incidents like this occurring, and I had to sleep on it to allow enough time to give a fairly reasoned response. I addressed a similar incident a few days ago with another poster, and the deafening silence that resulted afterward lead me to feel that none (or few) shared my sentiment. I've used that multiquote feature, because so many responders echo my sentiments, but damned that it has to spread everything out like this.



butch said:


> ...the adding on the bit about WLS would have pissed me off because it seems a bit tactless... including it shows that they may be more interested in being opinionated instead of being sincerely concerned for your health in all its complexity.





butch said:


> And I don't know that I would trust their motives...[Marilyn Wann] talks about how many times if you question someone close enough, and give enough examples of your state of good health as a fat person, they expose that they aren't really concerned about your health but using that as a cover to express their dislike of fat.


I absolutely agree, butch. You know, the big question of "why people do what they do to and with regard to fat people" has baffled me to no end, for years and years. It baffles me to the point that I spend an inordinate amount of time pondering it, I guess because I have never arrived at any answers that settle the question once and for all. 

Kara, I have to ask--is this woman what I would term a "situational" friend? Meaning, are you friends only in the context of your shared interest in singing? I ask because it would seem like, if she were truly your friend, and truly concerned for your wellbeing, she would have inquired about your health long before now, and in a kinder way. She would have contacted you by phone, e-mail, in person--something--during your absence, and prior to springing this on you only when she noticed that you had gained some weight.



CrankySpice said:


> Really, it is just a passive aggressive way of saying “I know you are different and I’m going tell you just that so I can feel superior about my knowledge and/or own personal condition. But I’m going to word it in such a way that if you do anything but agree with me, you’ll look defensive and rude.”





CrankySpice said:


> So I don’t buy the “good intentions”. Not one little bit. My family has learned long ago that my weight is NOT a topic up for discussion. Most of my friends are fat, so it really never comes up. And I have, in my own way, let my co-workers know that it is not an issue up for discussion, either. Although I do have one co-worker whom I just know—I just KNOW—is going to bring it up someday. She just can’t help herself.
> 
> When it does come up, my usual response is “Well, I’m just about the healthiest person I know. Great blood work, no joint issues, so I can’t complain!” But I know that, sooner or later, I’m not going to be able to restrain myself and will come back with some kind of response to put them on the spot. Hopefully it is my evil co-worker. I can’t wait.


So much wisdom packed into your comments here, Cranky. Again, it's all about motive. And while I agree that it is passive-agressive behavior, I think the reasons behind it are a little more varied, but they certainly include the one you mentioned. And I most certainly agree that the expression of "concern" is couched in such a way that it leaves the fat person stymied as to how to offer an adequate response. 

When I think about it (and I've already mentioned that I think about it A LOT), I just consider how inhumane it is to treat fat people like this (and all the other ways)...the lack of respect and courtesy and manners involved...and that the size of someone's body provides people an excuse to unleash (in an acceptable [!?!] manner) whatever ugliness resides within them...and how many people have been harmed and scarred--to the point that their self-esteem is unduly affected, often for life--because such behavior is passed off as being perfectly within bounds. It's not OK--and I think that part of my anger over this stems from the fat person not recognizing this, for, in failing to do so--for not recognizing the behavior for what it is, for not pointing it out to the person who verbally assaults you, for dismissing it, for absorbing it and internalizing it--the behavior is allowed to be perpetuated. 



Sandie S-R said:


> That's ok Doc, I repped her for both of us. I think Cranky is right on the money as well. What is it about being fat that gives people the assumed license to invade our privacy? My "health" is no one's concern but mine and my Doctors. And even the Doctor is questionable.





Sandie S-R said:


> Seriously, it's not my "health" that the butinsky is concerned about, it's my fat. Period. My fat offends them, and they want me to feel shamed into "doing something about it". It is never about genuine "concern". It is a way for the person to feel superior over the fat person. Cranky is clearly right when she said it was a passive agressive way of speaking to a fat person.
> 
> No, the "health" thing is never a excuse for someone being rude and offensive.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with everything you have said, Sandie--except one absolute. Sometimes, and I admit it is _very_ rare, such statements _are _made with genuine concern. But recognizing that is all conditional on who expresses it, what is said and how it is expressed, and the nature of that person's relationship with us. And, even then, it is always possible that such expressions of genuine concern are also accompanied by a disdain of fat. For instance, I believe my mother when she comments on my weight and says that she is concerned for my health. On the other hand, I also know that she is a fatphobe, because I have known of too many times when she has made some offhand remark about a fat person when we are out and about or when she spots one on tv. It's sad to say, but I know that, when she does comment to me on it, her fat phobia trumps her genuine concern. It just does.


Midori said:


> I suppose my response would depend upon a great many factors including my mood at the moment. There was a time when I would have been so uncomfortable ... well let's be honest, humiliated and miserable that someone had done that ... that I would have been too hurt to respond with any indignation ... after all ... it's not like I can deny that I'm fat ... right?


midori, there was a time when I too would have been uncomfortable (and humiliated and miserable), until it happened just so many times in my life, and from an early age, that I began to look deeper at the motivation behind such comments. So, I'm fat. That is obvious. I know I'm fat, you (the one who instigated the verbal assault) know I'm fat--what exactly is the point of any type of comment that would address that? I don't have to justify my size to anyone. I have a right to be fat, just as you have a right to be whatever it is (that I would never dream of commenting on publically, whether it be directly to you or in snide, above-a-whisper comments to your friends or anyone who is within hearing distance) that you are. As many here have commented, when/why is this type of behavior deemed acceptable?



midori said:


> I am generally a rather vocal and outspoken person however that has never extended over into my size issues because I am vocal and passionate about things I believe in ... and for a long time ... I just didn't believe in me so ... in your shoes ... I would have likely had a very meek reply.


I have to ask you--why did you not believe in yourself? Do you feel that low self-esteem was instilled in you from birth? Do you feel that it was a direct result of concrete things that you did or did not do to believe you were not as worthy of breathing the same air as everyone else? Likely not. Likely it was that you didn't believe in yourself because these types of comments had been hammered into your head so much, and so often, that you felt that there must be some element of truth to them. 

I can't say whether this is the case for you or not, midori, but there are many of us here who endured some type of trauma or abuse during childhood. Many here freely admit that, and I am one of them. I am strictly qualifying this statement by saying that, for those who did--if the abuse continued without intervention, many of us internalized guilt, or felt that we were somehow to blame, somehow deserving of it. Maybe being or becoming fat would have occurred naturally, for whatever reason. Maybe, and again, for whatever reason, many of us became fat for reasons of comfort or protection. Regardless, though, it seems that many fat people simply absorbed and internalized the rude remarks about our weight and size, perpetuating and increasing that feeling of guilt or blame. I can remember the sense of shock I felt as a very young girl when I first experienced such hurtful remarks--when I had done nothing to provoke such cruelty except for the mere fact that I was a chubby kid. It was cruel, it was mean, it was unfair--yet, somewhere, somehow, deep in my subconscious--it must have registered that the things they said were true, because I grew to feel worthless and unlovable.



midori said:


> This is not to say that I think a rude or hostile reply is ALWAYS warranted ... but it is to say that after experiencing a "failed" WLS, my responses today would be matter of fact to educational at best. Likely the person would get far more information than they bargained for and I'd bet that after our discussion they would never so casually make the same suggestions again. IF those suggestions or comments were done thoughtlessly but with good intentions.


I suppose I would have to read your other post to know completely what you mean here. As someone who has also experienced a “failed” WLS, I can pretty well guess, though. We “went with the program,” as it were, for whatever reasons. We had to have believed those reasons were pretty significant to us, right?, to endure such a traumatic physical assault to our bodies—such a life-altering event. And yet—and yet, here we are—still fat. Again (at least for me), it all boils down to internalizing all of that crap that was expressed to me, unceasingly. It may not have even been overt, but I was acutely made aware that I just wasn’t going to fit in or be accepted at the weight I was. I think those of us who have experienced a “failed” WLS have quite a different perspective on these issues than a fat person who either had the sense enough, or a strong enough self of self-worth, to never consider WLS, or the fat person who has undergone WLS and been successful at keeping it off. The thing is, I truly wasn’t unhappy with my size—meaning, it didn’t bother me, personally. I was quite content to remain as I was (and, believe me, in retrospect, I should have held to that). It was just everyone outside of me who seemed to have a problem with my size. As a result, and over the years since then (what with remaining fat and all), I gradually came to realize (and with the help of Dimensions) that maybe, just maybe, I was meant to be fat. Consequently, if I was meant to be fat, and that was OK, I then had to examine the motive behind all of the things that were said or done to me as a result of my being fat. And examine I did.



midori said:


> I'd like to give most people the benefit of the doubt and generally education and perspective changes go further in helping the well meaning person understand the gross assumptions that are obvious in their comments ... than a really scathing retort. However, as I grow more comfortable with who I am and what I look like ... depending on my -read- of a person's motives ... they are more likely to get a response from me that would include ...





midori said:


> "Do you have any idea how arrogant and presumptuous that statement or question is? What gives you the idea that you have any right to comment to me about such a personal matter? I think you have a really unflattering dress on and your hair is all wrong ... does that mean that just because I am concerned that you are a fashion victim ... I have the right to critique or offer to redress you? How much more personal are your comments to me than that? Look lady ... you have NO idea what I've been through and it's really absolutely NONE of your business."
> 
> Or something to that effect. ~shrugs~ Probably not nearly witty enough but that's just me. I could think of a million one liners but most of the time I try to handle situations like that in hopes of being the LAST one to have to endure said person's ignorant, if well meaning comments. If I can spare someone else ... I usually figure I'm big enough ~laughs~ to take one for the team so to speak. ~winks~ Unfortunately without some enlightenment ... most people are narrow-minded and arrogant enough to think that WE were the ones with the rude reply and they were simply trying to be nice. Without a little help ... they will never see in a snippy one liner how insulting they've been ... it's easier to write it off as WE were not only FAT but grossly rude as well. Amazing the arrogance ...


And those are pretty much my conclusions, as well. I have examined this and examined this. I have read or heard so many instances of where, when faced with such a situation, a person chooses to try to educate and enlighten the ignorant, or simply to ignore and walk away from it. And I really struggle with an appropriate response. In some ways, I can almost commend someone who can seemingly rise above it—but the fact remains (to me) that these people are still left feeling justified in their remarks. And that, to me, is simply unacceptable. Maybe my efforts toward increasing my self-esteem, and to feel equally worthy of breathing the same air, have over-reached the mark to the point that I have absolutely no patience nor feel any grace toward anyone who is so crass to make such remarks. I have no interest in giving such people the benefit of the doubt, or trying to educate or enlighten them. It’s simply a waste or my time and consideration. Regardless of any other redeeming qualities they may have, I have no interest or desire in wanting to acquaint myself with them further. I trump them in return with my contempt and dismissal. 

(I'm probably not through venting, just stopping at this point.)


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## Theatrmuse/Kara (Jul 25, 2007)

Again, wonderful thoughts on this issue.

I guess I should also have disclosed that I have indeed gained weight in the past six months or so.............because (1) arthritis in my knees has caused me to stop exercising regularly but more importantly (2) During 2006- I LOST 60 pounds through another DIET program! (Gawd, when will I ever learn????????? But this is another issue, my years in size acceptance still fall by the wayside every once in awhile and I think, "Maybe THIS time...........it will stay off!" :doh: No, it NEVER does! So, when I stopped the 1100 calorie DIET crap in January.......the weight came back fairly quickly..........about 30 pounds regained! SOMEDAY. I will learn from all these years of mistakes! 
< huge sigh >

This is just one more of these crappy things that a larger person must deal with over and over again!
Hugs, Kara


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## SummerG (Jul 25, 2007)

This is a great thread. Thank you Kara for sharing your experience. 

My personal opinion on the matter is this: My Body, My Business. 

If I choose to share my business with someone, open a discussion, no problem. However random family members, friends, aquaintances, strangers, who offer advice stemmed from "concern" can seriously F* off. 

I am a terribly easy going person, who does not like to upset the apple cart, so I used to sit and listen to so called helpful advice, smile and nod trying to hold back the anger. Now if someone suggests WLS or a certain diet I have no problem letting them know my opinions on the matter. I don't begrudge anyone the right to have WLS, or to diet. Your body, your choice. But this is *my* body, and I will do with it as I please.


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## Midori (Jul 25, 2007)

Wow Saucy Wench ~soft smile~ tell us how you REALLY feel! ~grins~ Thank you for the feedback ... I suppose at first I was a bit surprised at being quoted so much in your post but then ... you made some very good points and I really appreciate that. I will try to answer some of your questions as concisely as possible and pray that it does not derail this thread too much.

I USED to think that low self esteem was instilled in me at birth ... I am adopted and regardless of how well my adoptive family situation worked out (and I am incredibly blessed in that department) there is an inherent and undeniable rejection that goes hand in hand with giving a child up for adoption regardless of sterling motives. I don't wish my birth mother had made another decision but I can't deny the fact that it marks a child with a particular type of rejection that they have to overcome. I grew up encouraged in every way EXCEPT my weight. I was above average intelligence wise and this was acknowledged and cultivated in the form of opportunities and intellectual challenges that my parents encouraged me to be a part of. I was also from an upper middle class family and while they didn't spoil us, we did by way of prosperity have plenty in our home. However, my parents were both average sized as were both of my siblings and of course ... my parents worried about my weight and about the social and physical consequences of my size.

I used to wonder if I unconsciously ate myself into fatness however, as I related in my story about my WLS, I discovered as an adult that I have some serious endocrinological issues that give me a natural (at least for my body) propensity towards weight gain and retention. This was not something that was discovered as a child ... so of course I was given the whole diet spiel regularly growing up. I DO wonder at times why my Mom never seemed to put together the fact that I simply was NOT eating THAT much ... but still packed on the pounds. I have a super-metabolism sister who ate like no tomorrow ... far more than I could ever eat ... and I wonder why they never really took the time to compare our eating and investigate why I was so much bigger but ate less than she did. ~shrugs~ The concern was the outward look and many of us get that our whole lives. 

Of course ... because of that constant diet/lose weight mentality ... I grew up not loving or accepting my body and my size. Of course I bought into all of the media hype and I wanted to be -normal- ... I just thought I was lazy and that if I could just try harder or figure out how ... I could be success in diet and lose the weight. I didn't really come to terms with the limitations of those theories UNTIL WLS did not -work- on my cosmetic issues. 

I was NOT happy with my size and I have always felt guilty about NOT being able to successfully do anything about it. I felt that no one could really understand the depths of my misery because after all ... if I was so miserable I could just simply change it ... right? I mean ... that IS the way the rest of the world works. I think the ASSUMPTION that we are automatically lazy or gluttonous bothers me the most because it attributes such socially negative stigmas to us ... that often aren't so simple to summarize. The easy assumptions about us and our size frustrate me in a world where everyone else is afforded such luxuries when it comes to compassion and understanding or acceptance. ~shrugs~



> As a result, and over the years since then (what with remaining fat and all), I gradually came to realize (and with the help of Dimensions) that maybe, just maybe, I was meant to be fat. Consequently, if I was meant to be fat, and that was OK, I then had to examine the motive behind all of the things that were said or done to me as a result of my being fat. And examine I did.-saucywench



This resonates with me tremendously. I have had to come to terms with who I am and what I am and how my body functions. I have HAD to redefine myself and what contentment and happiness are to me ... in ways that I never understood before I really understood how my body works. This has been a revelationary process for me and I think THAT is why I am inclined to attempt education rather than simply pop off, MOST of the time. Like I said ... I have my moments. But one of the things that I can see so often is the ignorant assumptions that are perpetuated over and over in the media and in most people's rationale that ... if not addressed ... continue to go on and on. One of the things that I DO feel that I have the grace to do more often, is give some explanation beyond a hostile or witty retort because ... like I said ... that response will really do nothing further to help the person see the error of their thinking.

I know that for me ... understanding and education come with someone not ripping me or dismissing me but by taking the time to share THEIR experience with me ... THAT is the way that I see my mistakes and LEARN something. I dismiss people that perceive as rude outright ... rarely considering my own behavior as having been possibly rude as well. IF someone takes a few moments to point out the errors in my assumptions or perspectives ... THEN I usually can learn something from the encounter ... rather than go off feeling self satisfied and wrongly (but in my mind righteously) indignant. Obviously the woman in question here did NOT feel that her comments were out of line or simply ... she felt it was OK on some level to make the assumptions she did about Kara. 

IF Kara just pops off a witty or scathing reply ... right or wrong ... the other woman generally will leave feeling very righteously indignant and feeling that Kara was the one in the wrong. Now WE know Kara wasn't the one in the wrong ... but the chances of this woman seeing the errors in her assumptions is about zero from that approach. IF I were Kara in that situation ... and I spent a few moments firmly but calmly explaining to her my experience with WLS and everything that I had discovered as well as the hurtfulness in her assumptions about me ... THEN ... there is at least a chance that this woman won't be so quick to jump to conclusions in the future ... and potentially steal someone else's joy. It's not a guarantee HOWEVER I do think the chances are better with a little bit of effort on my part. Do I have to make the effort? No. But do I feel that in some way ... If can help out others in the long run ... people like me who have already been very hurt by careless and assumptive statements ... then it's worth a little bit of my time. 

I'd rather make a difference than make a statement. Yes ... that's ideological. Yes that's on a perfect day in my world. Yes that's assuming a great many things ... but I do try to make the difference IF and WHEN I can. Some days I fall short ... some days a snippy response just tumbles out of me. But I can say that afterwards ... I'm more likely to regret a missed opportunity to really try to make a difference and help educate someone about fat acceptance and realities ... than I am to be happy I gave a real zinger to someone who is obviously going to miss the point. 

I don't think either way is right or wrong ... I think alot of how people respond comes down to personality and disposition ... both in the moment and in general. I work with people all the time and perhaps because of that I'm more willing to look at the value in a teaching moment. I'd rather be the last person someone accosts with their ignorance than just be written off as one hostile fat chick who was clearly unhappy anyways and let's face it ... stupid people often don't get the real message behind a witty retort. ~laughs~ There is no perfect response I don't think ... I think it's most important to be true to yourself and how you want to be as a person. That's different for everyone. Some days I fall short of the marks I make for myself and some days I have the grace to rise up. I think I have to be kind to myself either way and give myself to be as human as anyone else and if something hurts or offends ... I may just not make my personal high mark and go dirty .. ~laughs~ Just depends. 

Thank you so much saucy for your insights! I really appreciated them!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 25, 2007)

cute_obese_girl said:


> I smell jealousy. Her timing reeks of wanting to take you down a peg after a clearly great performance. I don't know how good of a friend this woman is to you, but if she chose this place and this moment, I would say not a good one.
> 
> I'm sorry she tried to ruin it for you. I hope you continue to blow her away with your vocals



I have to agree with this- why in hell do that when she sees you happy? How dare a fat woman have a good time and enjoy herself, eh? :doh:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 25, 2007)

Jon Blaze said:


> That is exactly right. The thing is, however, regardless of one's intention or not: They have to comment in a tactful manner.
> 
> From what I assume, Kara has been large for a long time, and while yes it is highly accurate to equate added weight with exacerbation of certain conditions (Which is really all you can say for it in regards to health without some sort of observation), they still came up in a manner that while it may have been good on paper, was executed in a manner that we can conclude wasn't the greatest.
> 
> ...



Have I ever told you how classy you are, Jon?  :kiss2:


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 25, 2007)

BeaBea said:


> I completely agree - but I still feel that a person with a sincere concern would surely want to address the subject in the way that was most like to get them listened to.
> 
> I hear what you're saying but I think interrupting our Diva in the middle of her curtain calls smacks of someone who wanted to deliver a lecture and didn't really give a damn about whether or not Kara's health was improved overall as a result.
> 
> ...



I have to Amen this one , too- that wench sure had some great timing :doh: 

Probably the well-planned timing of a catty woman


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 25, 2007)

saucywench said:


> You know, the big question of "why people do what they do to and with regard to fat people" has baffled me to no end, for years and years. It baffles me to the point that I spend an inordinate amount of time pondering it, I guess because I have never arrived at any answers that settle the question once and for all.
> 
> 
> When I think about it (and I've already mentioned that I think about it A LOT), I just consider how inhumane it is to treat fat people like this (and all the other ways)...the lack of respect and courtesy and manners involved...and that the size of someone's body provides people an excuse to unleash (in an acceptable [!?!] manner) whatever ugliness resides within them...and how many people have been harmed and scarred--to the point that their self-esteem is unduly affected, often for life--because such behavior is passed off as being perfectly within bounds. It's not OK--and I think that part of my anger over this stems from the fat person not recognizing this, for, in failing to do so--for not recognizing the behavior for what it is, for not pointing it out to the person who verbally assaults you, for dismissing it, for absorbing it and internalizing it--the behavior is allowed to be perpetuated.



Saucy, I want to say that I truly admire the way you think about things- the way you analyze and "have patience" to spend time with it- making sure you don't miss a thing - it also implies a thoughtfulness to try and see all sides of things. However, my mind is the type that looks for a summary and a target (read much impatience with some things... and people) and have to say that some people are just arseholes - pure and simple. I waste no more time on them than that (sometimes I should but I just can't do it :doh: ) 



saucywench said:


> Kara, I have to ask--is this woman what I would term a "situational" friend? Meaning, are you friends only in the context of your shared interest in singing? I ask because it would seem like, if she were truly your friend, and truly concerned for your wellbeing, she would have inquired about your health long before now, and in a kinder way. She would have contacted you by phone, e-mail, in person--something--during your absence, and prior to springing this on you only when she noticed that you had gained some weight.
> So much wisdom packed into your comments here, Cranky. Again, it's all about motive. And while I agree that it is passive-agressive behavior, I think the reasons behind it are a little more varied, but they certainly include the one you mentioned. And I most certainly agree that the expression of "concern" is couched in such a way that it leaves the fat person stymied as to how to offer an adequate response.




Once again, I agree fully- "friends" have tact and usually try to be more considerate in the approach- especially over something so personal a subject as weight and health.


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## TraciJo67 (Jul 25, 2007)

Theatrmuse/Kara said:


> Well, it has happened again. If I had a quarter for each time some well meaning friend or family member has spoke these words to me over the past 52 years.....I would be RICH!
> 
> Last night I went to my weekly rehearsal of a woman's chorus called Womansong here in Asheville. This is a wonderful eclectic group. A place where I go to be myself and not be judged. Last night, I was on stage singing a duet with another large woman and we rocked the place. Since I have been having difficulty of late with arthritis, I have not attended in a few weeks or so. While singing, I felt my recently slightly depressed soul soar and was feeling soooooooooo wonderful about life and about myself even!
> 
> ...




Whether she was sincere or not, what lousy timing  Also, unless she's a very dear friend, and you know that her motivation is truly (a misguided) concern for your health, her comments were very inappropriate & presumptuous. And even then, were she truly concerned, I think she would have picked a better time & place.


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## volatile (Jul 25, 2007)

A lot of times people say things that are hurtful or disrespectful without thinking first. I've recently had family members and friends ask me if I ever considered WLS because I've been having some problems with my feet and back. I just tell them that I would rather have a bad back then go through a dangerous surgery that has a risk of death and other serious complications. 

While WLS has come a long way, I still consider it very dangerous and would only have it if I had no other options. I could never see my health getting that bad that it would be my only option but I know that it's an option but right now I wouldn't take it in a million years.

I wouldn't consider that person a foe. I would say it's just a friend who is "concerned" because you have been in a pain and was maybe trying to help but didn't know how to bring it up. It wasn't her right to comment in the first place but some people just lack that common sense that tells them to stay out of someone's personal life & health issues. People are dense like that. 

WLS is so common today that I think a lot of people think that anyone who is fat wants to have it or wants to be skinny, which isn't the case.


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## liz (di-va) (Jul 25, 2007)

I am genuinely curious: To all the people defending this kind of comment--seriously, from the most practical, realistic POV, what do you hope to actually *achieve* by saying stuff like that? Or think others can? Do you *really* think that you're saying something new/revelatory/helpful? What kind of change do you think you can effect? Do you really think that this will be new/helpful information?

Even if you manage to untangle someone's complicated health status in two nanoseconds with your Superman eye and know empirically what's causing what in somebody's body--why would you say something? Do you really think anybody's gonna suddenly un-fat?


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## TraciJo67 (Jul 25, 2007)

liz (di-va) said:


> I am genuinely curious: To all the people defending this kind of comment--seriously, from the most practical, realistic POV, what do you hope to actually *achieve* by saying stuff like that? Or think others can? Do you *really* think that you're saying something new/revelatory/helpful? What kind of change do you think you can effect? Do you really think that this will be new/helpful information?
> 
> Even if you manage to untangle someone's complicated health status in two nanoseconds with your Superman eye and know empirically what's causing what in somebody's body--why would you say something? Do you really think anybody's gonna suddenly un-fat?



Liz, I hope you didn't get the impression that I was defending Kara's friend. I most emphatically was not. I have been in a similar position, and I've had people say things that I suspected were pure snark. Others were genuinely concerned. I had joint problems, and I know that they were related to my weight. And although arthritis isn't caused by extra weight, it certainly does complicate things. It's hard to watch my mother struggle to get out of a chair & walk gingerly lest her legs buckle under her. Sometimes, caring friends & family members feel that they *have* to say something, even if they suspect that the comments won't be initially welcomed. I used to beg my father to stop eating sweets & drinking non-thickened beverages, despite knowing that he would never stop (and furthermore, that he'd get cranky with me when I said something). I did so not because I thought that it would do any good, but because it was the only thing I *could* do. I felt helpless, knowing that he was dying & that each extra bite he took would land him in the hospital again. I am not comparing this situation to Kara's, only saying that I feel it's a bit overly simplistic to insinuate that caring friends & family should say something only if they feel it will achieve an immediate positive result. Sometimes it really *is* just a way of saying, "I love you, and I can't bear to watch you suffer."

In Kara's case, whether her friend was genuinely concerned or not, her timing was wildly inappropriate and she should have known better.


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## pani (Jul 25, 2007)

I have never had a single person mention my weight who wasn't themselves extremely dysfunctional. I think people concentrate on the problems of others because they don't want to look inside themselves. I can't remember which poster above said it, but it is definitely a boundary issue!

"I have never had a problem with my weight that wasn't caused by other people."


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 25, 2007)

pani said:


> I have never had a single person mention my weight who wasn't themselves extremely dysfunctional. I think people concentrate on the problems of others because they don't want to look inside themselves. I can't remember which poster above said it, but it is definitely a boundary issue!
> 
> "I have never had a problem with my weight that wasn't caused by other people."



Very good call :bow:


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## Dr. P Marshall (Jul 25, 2007)

pani said:


> I think people concentrate on the problems of others because they don't want to look inside themselves. I can't remember which poster above said it, but it is definitely a boundary issue!


 
I agree with you completely. Even if a friend cared about you and knew that you had some problem that had accounted for your absence from practice or something, they would have just said "How are you?" or if they knew it was health related "How are you feeling?" Then they should let YOU guide the conversation. I don't care how much someone cares about you, they do not have a right to expect to discuss personal issues with you. If you choose to discuss it with them, they should fell privileged that you confided in them, but they should not expect it. And that goes for everybody about every topic in my opinion. To think you have a right to comment on a person's weight, or health or anything else seems disrespectful to me. Like you think you know better. And I have yet to meet the person that has life so figured out that they are the expert on everything.


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## lipmixgirl (Jul 25, 2007)

my dearest kara,

i read your post and before jumping in i decided to read everyone else's 2 cents as well. what it comes down to is this:

1. i question your use of the word "friend"... is she really a "friend"? or just an "acquaintance"?

2. let's forget the fat went straight to your friend's brain when she made such the egregious faux pas, bypassing her foot and going straight to gnawing on her thigh, when she uttered such care, courtesy, discretion, and sensitivity:

"I'm VERY concerned about your health and it appears that you have gained some weight and I am really worried. You are having trouble with your knees have you considered weight loss surgery?"

 bottom line - a true friend NEVER judges. a true friend supports. a true friend always accepts.

3. it never hurts to consider "trimming the fat" / "dropping the dead weight"... meaning, that perhaps it isn't your personal pounds that need to be shed, but shedding the weight of these so called "friends"... 

i, personally, through the years have opted and successfully lost over 500lbs of "dead weight" and trust me, it's done this fat body good...

4. while it is often said that "nothing tastes as good as being thin feels" i always say "everything tastes better when you trim that social fat!"


the big apple has spoken...
::exeunt:: :bow:


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 25, 2007)

liz (di-va) said:


> I am genuinely curious: To all the people defending this kind of comment--seriously, from the most practical, realistic POV, what do you hope to actually *achieve* by saying stuff like that? Or think others can? Do you *really* think that you're saying something new/revelatory/helpful? What kind of change do you think you can effect? Do you really think that this will be new/helpful information?
> 
> Even if you manage to untangle someone's complicated health status in two nanoseconds with your Superman eye and know empirically what's causing what in somebody's body--why would you say something? Do you really think anybody's gonna suddenly un-fat?



For me, it wouldn't be about "un-fattening" myself...but maybe, just maybe seeing the bigger picture. If my health is in some jeopardy, it could mean a wake up call on my end...and in fact, personally, it has been. Getting healthy doesn't mean losing weight -- it could simply mean, starting to take a short walk around the block or incorporating more fruits/veggies into meals. I'm not suggesting this was the OP's wake up call. But a loved one has said that she was concerned about me...she didn't attack me, nor did she put me down or demean me. At first, yes, I was taken aback and angry, but upon further inspection...I knew her words came from a place of love. And you are right, Liz. She couldn't look at me and know what was going on in my body, but I don't see the harm in her being concerned for me. She isn't pushing WLS on me; I don't even think that's crossed her mind...

Sometimes I feel like fat people have a sort of complex where we immediately jump to conclusions if someone says something about our being fat. Sometimes all a person is trying to do is support/care/or have an iota of concern...not hurt; and it just makes for a difficult situation when we are so quick to jump the gun. Of course this isn't always the case...but in my experience as a fat person, it rings true.


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## TraciJo67 (Jul 25, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Sometimes I feel like fat people have a sort of complex where we immediately jump to conclusions if someone says something about our being fat. Sometimes all a person is trying to do is support/care/or have an iota of concern...not hurt; and it just makes for a difficult situation when we are so quick to jump the gun. Of course this isn't always the case...but in my experience as a fat person, it rings true.



This paragraph resonated with me, ashmamma.

Years ago, a friend of mine tried to suggest that my weight might be a factor in my inability to get pregnant. I reacted badly, the conversation disintegrated, and we exchanged some very harsh words. I was beyond offended, and refused to speak with her for years afterwards. At the time, it seemed to me that she was placing blame on me. Years later, when I finally gathered the courage to seek professional help (previous experiences with callous doctors regarding my weight being the big issue that prevented me from seeing a doctor in the first place), an entire team of doctors told me that yes, my weight was probably a contributing factor. About a year ago, as my husband & I were finalizing plans to adopt, I thought about the conversation with my friend, and about what was *really* bothering me. For the first time, I was able to be truly honest with myself. I was afraid that she was right, but felt helpless to do anything about it. I was jealous & angry that she'd had two children & I felt left behind. And I was embarrassed that she saw me as "that big". 

I regret that our friendship ended. We had been very close for more than 5 years. I still think about her. My reaction was very out of proportion to the offense, so much so that I no longer have a choice in renewing our relationship. She refused to consider it.


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## BeaBea (Jul 26, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> I regret that our friendship ended. We had been very close for more than 5 years. I still think about her. My reaction was very out of proportion to the offense, so much so that I no longer have a choice in renewing our relationship. She refused to consider it.



Thats such a shame babe but dont give up. My Grandmother and her Sister fell out over their Mothers will and didn't speak to each other for over 30 years. With some small nudges and good will the circumstances eventually conspired to bring them together and they became friends again in their late eighties. 

Its never too late. Could you maybe consider sending her a brief note at some point saying you regret the circumstances that led to you falling out? If you just say you miss her and bear her no ill-will but understand if she doesn't want to resume the friendship then you never know what might happen. You might get closure on the episode, but, she might be writing on another board saying exactly the same things as you are...

Tracey xx


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 26, 2007)

lipmixgirl said:


> my dearest kara,
> 
> i read your post and before jumping in i decided to read everyone else's 2 cents as well. what it comes down to is this:
> 
> ...



Is it wrong of me to love this woman? :wubu:


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## butch (Jul 26, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Is it wrong of me to love this woman? :wubu:



Yes, because I loved her first, you woman stealing hussy!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jul 26, 2007)

butch said:


> Yes, because I loved her first, you woman stealing hussy!



You better back off or I will get my hairbrush out on you!!


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## Rojodi (Jul 26, 2007)

lipmixgirl said:


> 4. while it is often said that "nothing tastes as good as being thin feels" i always say "everything tastes better when you trim that social fat!"
> 
> 
> the big apple has spoken...
> ::exeunt:: :bow:



Those that have said "nothing tastes as good as being thin feels" has evidently never felt not thin, nor has tasted thin.

And I argree...Friends will NEVER judge you like this one did

Roger


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## T_Devil (Jul 26, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> I regret that our friendship ended. We had been very close for more than 5 years. I still think about her. My reaction was very out of proportion to the offense, so much so that I no longer have a choice in renewing our relationship. She refused to consider it.


You tried.

I wish I could feel the same way about friends I've cut out of my life. Then again though, they were people that were going down a road I had no desire to travel. Even so though, Good Intentions are often times a friendship killer. Like a relationship though, it takes two people to make a friendship work. You went back to your friend with your hat in your hands and admitted you were wrong. There's nothing more you can really do.

Regret is something that poisons you. It haunts your thoughts. There are things I regret, absolutely, But I've made my personal peace with them. For whatever the reason was that caused the regret in the first place, I made right whatever I could, and for the things I couldn't, I accepted the fact I was too late and let it go. 

Your reaction may have been way out of proportion. Things like this happen. People screw up, ask anyone who's gone to prison. You wanted to fix the friendship and she said "no". I'm sure she has her reasons. I'm not privy to know what those reasons are, I don't know either of you. What I do know is that there are few things in life that can completely dissolve a friendship. It can happen, but there's usually something pretty severe involved like a ruined life or a dead/murdered relative or something. 

If it's all about words, those can be put aside. The thing about history is that it is in the past. We live in the now, and we can only live in the now. To dwell on the past is refusing to grow, and fearing about the future is fear of something that has not happened yet. Friendships live in the now. If your friend doesn't want to let go of all the negativity and animosity and try to start over, that is completely her choice to make. That shouldn't mean that she's making the correct choice, it just means that she has her own issues to deal with.

You've at least let her know that what you said in the past was something that you now know was a mistake and that you deeply regret it. The ball's in her court. It's up to her to decide if negativity is worth more than forgiveness. If she chooses negativity, you're probably better off without her as a friend.

All this coming from a person who has ruined his share of friendships over some really stupid and insipid things. It's not too late to try again and if it is, it's never too late to bury your regret and move on. That's all anyone can do.


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## Miss Vickie (Jul 26, 2007)

Aw, Kara, I'm sorry your friend brought you down.  It sounds like you were really feeling good, like you'd accomplished something. It sounds to me like her timing was off -- even if her intentions may have been good. I think for the majority of mainstream America who's fed the "fat is bad" message on a near constant basis, that them suggesting WLS is out of concern. They hear about this great fix and of course they want it for their loved ones. They just don't get why it's insulting. The only reason I think she really did have your best interest at heart is her mentioning your arthritis. I mean, it has gotten worse, and yes, weight doesn't help. Maybe it was knowing that you struggled with it was what was concerning to you. Mentioning someone's non-existant medical conditions -- making the assumption that they have heart disease and diabetes just by nature of being fat -- would be wrong. But in your case, you demonstrated an ailment that can be improved somewhat with weight loss, so that may be where she was coming from.

Still though, her timing suuuuuucks. And her choice of place? Sucked as well. Besides, I know plenty of thin folks with arthritis so weight clearly isn't the only player in that horribly painful disease. I hope you're able to sometime talk to her about how hurt you are, and maybe even send her here. Sounds like she needs some edumacation. 

Traci, honey, it's definitely your friend's loss. I can't imagine letting one cross word or overreaction end a friendship; I'm just not wired that way. Maybe, given that so much time has passed, you can try getting in touch, if for no other reason than to share your joy with her.

Anyone lucky enough to have you in their life is lucky, indeed. :wubu:


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## Teresa (Jul 27, 2007)

I, like many others that have responded, have had this happen to me. It was my Aunt. She was *very* hesitant and nervous talking to me about my weight and "health" and I could tell it was difficult for her to do. I'm very out there with my fat acceptance and my family knows where I stand on this. I wasn't angry with her, but I didn't accept her judgment about my body. I was polite and even loving in telling her that I appreciate her concern for me, but that I was strong, healthy, and that dieting is what got me to 330 lbs. I informed her that WLS is extremely dangerous and that for many their health didn't improve. It's just that their "problems" changed from being fat to having true health problems. I tried to be very informative and let her know that I knew about the options that were out there for fat people. I mean, *don't we all know that???????* 

I'm just sorry this womans comment brought you down and ruined a great evening. 



T_Devil said:


> If it's all about words, those can be put aside. The thing about history is that it is in the past. We live in the now, and we can only live in the now. To dwell on the past is refusing to grow, and fearing about the future is fear of something that has not happened yet. Friendships live in the now. If your friend doesn't want to let go of all the negativity and animosity and try to start over, that is completely her choice to make. That shouldn't mean that she's making the correct choice, it just means that she has her own issues to deal with.
> 
> You've at least let her know that what you said in the past was something that you now know was a mistake and that you deeply regret it. The ball's in her court. It's up to her to decide if negativity is worth more than forgiveness. If she chooses negativity, you're probably better off without her as a friend.


 
Words are powerful and there are times they can't be put aside. Words reveal who we are, what we believe, think, and feel. Words can do damage that can takes decades to heal. Not putting what was said to you aside is not dwelling in the past, it's very much dwelling in the here and now, because you're dealing with the way a person has shown themselves to be. You can choose to either ignore the fact that they've said things to hurt you and continue to treat them as a trusted friend and risk having your trust thrown back in your teeth or realize they're not worthy of your trust and move on from that relationship. 

A year ago I had an experience with my sister that changed forever how I view her. It was through words, not actions, that she was revealed to me in a brand new light and I can never go back to my previous view of her. She asked for forgiveness afterward and I have forgiven her, but the trust that we shared for over 40 years was broken and no words can heal that. Only time can. Maybe over the next 40 years that trust will be rebuilt, but there is always the knowledge in the back of my mind that if she could break my trust once, who's to say she wouldn't do it again? 

This has nothing to do with negativity. It has everything to do with whether or not you are willing to allow yourself to be hurt again in a very deep way by someone who has proven untrustworthy. 

Words are the most powerful tool we have. I've learned the hard way how powerful they are. 

Teresa


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