# Faith/Spirituality Thread



## LeoGibson (May 5, 2014)

Tad I apologize in advance if this one goes off the rails. I'm sincerely hoping it doesn't, but well, I recall something about the best laid plans of mice and men, so with that in mind here goes nothing.

At the prompting of fat9276 about there being a need for a thread of this nature where folks can calmly and rationally discuss and share their beliefs on faith and spirituality. I wholeheartedly agree and here's a thread to do it in. I know this will be primarily based around Christianity as that will more than likely be the dominant belief system since most members are Western in nature. However, those with differing beliefs are welcome to participate and share as well. All I ask is that everyone be* respectful *of each others beliefs. I am also requesting of Tad to use a quick hook if people can't keep it respectful. If you are of no faith, or are a devout atheist, you're still welcome to discuss and ask questions as long as you stay within those guidelines, but if all you wish to do is come around to tell us all what hate-filled fools we all are, then don't bother. Just go on and cruise by this thread. I'm putting this in the BHM section because I think this is the best place a thread of this nature has a shot at being an actual discussion and not flame bait. Don't let me down folks!

With all that being said, I'll kick it off by saying I consider myself a follower of Christ. I'm no fan of the massive organized religions the world has. I have also read a fair bit of Zen Buddhism and a small amount of Hinduism and have found many good tenets there to put in practice for daily living. If anyone has any questions about anything in particular I believe or just want to bat around theological ideas, I'll answer to the best of my ability and as honestly as possible. If you wish to just share your own beliefs also, please feel free.


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## The Dark Lady (May 6, 2014)

Teeheehee . . . you were expecting this to predominantly be a Christian thread, but the first person to respond is me.  

I guess you could call me a pagan if you needed a term for it, or maybe just a witch. I believe in magic(k), signs, dreams, spirits who live in every corner of the earth & sky & beyond, other worlds beyond the veil, stuff like that. I also believe that everything science has been able to surmise about the history of the earth is accurate, and evolution and the long age of the planet/universe are facts of existence. But I also believe that somewhere outside of this fact-based reality is another realm where only the truths we imagine and believe to be true are supreme, and maybe that's the place we access in our dreams. Maybe it's the place we come from before birth and return to after death. 

But mostly, I believe spirituality is the art of living your own stories. If you're your own storyteller, you come up with your own explanations for the strange things that happen in your life. A lot of people don't trust their own inner voices or storytelling power, so they look to others to tell them the stories they should believe in, and that's organized religion. I'm one of those people who tells her own stories, and I may believe in many gods and goddesses, but I bow down to none.


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## LeoGibson (May 6, 2014)

The Dark Lady said:


> Teeheehee . . . you were expecting this to predominantly be a Christian thread, but the first person to respond is me.  ....




No worries. Some would posit that your belief predates most, if not all of the world's religions. 

I'll be honest though and admit I know very little about paganism as such, other than how the Pentecostal church I was raised in viewed such beliefs, which were rather unkind to say the least. Out of curiosity's sake, was that a belief you were raised with or something you found during your own spiritual searching?


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## Jah (May 6, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> I have also read a fair bit of Zen Buddhism and a small amount of Hinduism and have found many good tenets there to put in practice for daily living.



So which tenets are they? Sounds interesting!


I consider myself a Christian because I believe in God. I believe that God created the universe and for it to be ruled by science with evolution and all that. I believe in a Christian sense that vegetarianism is ideal, although I'm not a vegetarian yet, I do plan to be some day. I also believe that God isn't against gay marriage. I believe it is good to pray and do so often (it's one of the things I like most about Christianity). I don't think there is much more to say about my beliefs. I have always had an interest in Paganism though but Christianity is more in my heart.


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## HDANGEL15 (May 6, 2014)

The Dark Lady said:


> Teeheehee . . . you were expecting this to predominantly be a Christian thread


*
Interesting LG....and DL....I would NEVER have guessed it would be predominantly a Christian thread....but that's just based on my experience.

I grew up in a Jewish home and reformed Jews, however we practiced the sabbath weekly, and observed all holidays; not just the big ones.

I hated the idea of organized religion always, I had questions as a small child, and never got the answers I needed so badly. Although my parents had faith, they/their religion didn't teach me what I so sadly wanted/needed.

Some of you know I got clean and sober 18 years ago, that was when I realized there was such a thing as *spirituality* and that it had nothing to do with religion necessarily. Most importantly, that spirituality could stand on its own. I found my God/Higher Power/Higher voice via the Serenity Prayer...and 18 years later it answers ALL my questions.

Like many others, in my little itty bitty world; I have found my own understanding through nature. I find peace there, riding motorcycles helped open my world up and see it. So I have a God of MY OWN UNDERSTANDING as we see in the 12 step rooms. Those capitalized letters mean the world to me....as my God has a sense of humor, laughs at my mistakes, I make over and over. 

I meditate daily and pray often, looking for answers, peace for others, happiness, joy and good health and help for others as much or more then myself. 

thanks for my opportunity to share....getting down from the podium* :bow:


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## LeoGibson (May 6, 2014)

Jah said:


> So which tenets are they? Sounds interesting!



From Hinduism, not so much the actual religion part and the multiple god belief, but some of the things I've read on their belief in love and light and also living in harmony with the natural world. 

From Zen Buddhism, some of the things that make sense to me are the way of living now, in this moment and focusing on doing everything to the best of your ability and learning that the joy and the art is in the striving for your best and not necessarily in arriving there. Also, to try and want for nothing and to be selfless and walk in peace and harmony with all. 

For specific readings my brain can't remember off the top of my head, I'd have to dig through old boxes to find long ago read books. 



HDANGEL15 said:


> *
> Interesting LG....and DL....I would NEVER have guessed it would be predominantly a Christian thread....but that's just based on my experience.
> *



I only think that it will most likely be Judeo-Christian because of the percentages of people and what the predominate beliefs are in the western world and where most on this site are located.


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## Tad (May 6, 2014)

So far, so good  Although I have some concerns about how many "Lounge-type" threads we are starting on the BHM/FFA board. I can understand why people do it, but am pondering if it is a trend to encourage or not?

Anyway, on topic: I'm not strong on faith, in anything. There are certain things I have pretty high confidence on, based on evidence, but in general I'm ready to question things, and question my questioning of them. Which, predictably, makes me an agnostic--I think. I do question if that is really correct, sometimes... So basically I think it would be awesome if there were forces out there beyond what we can measure, I just have no faith that such things exist. Doesn't stop me from talking to them sometimes, however.

I do see value in religion, and much though I have no particular desire to attend church or the like every week, I think that those sort of institutions can have very important functions in terms of community building and even channeling the spirit of a community. For that matter I read one anthropological/historical study that looked at small Siberian communities, and found that the ones that had adopted monotheistic religions were generally wealthier and better off than similar ones that had not--and the suggested reason for that was that the religion helped create more trust between people, leading to more cooperation which was good for all.

On the other hand, leaders have used religion to lead people in all sorts of horrible directions, too--but that religion has been used toward evil ends doesn't make religion an evil thing in my eyes, any more than the fact that nuclear fission has been used to make weapons makes all uses of nuclear fission evil in my eyes. Both are potent forces that you want to be careful who you let mess with, but which can bring a lot of good to the world too, IMO.

Sorry that I spent more time talking about religion than faith or spirituality.


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## Dromond (May 6, 2014)

This is a fascinating subject, and I really hope this thread doesn't hit an iceberg.

As for me, the answer isn't an easy one. I am Christian mainly in the sense I accept Yeshua bin Yusuf / Jesus the Christ as my savior. I believe in one deity above all, that deity being Jehovah. I do believe there is an after life, but it is unknowable.

I've taken the time to study the bible, read about the origins of Christianity and Judaism that came before it. I know Jehovah's original name was El, the sky god of the nomadic desert tribes that would one day become the Jews. I also believe that Jehovah is not the only deity out there, but He is the only one I worship. God commands His worshipers to have no other god before Him. That commandment doesn't deny the existence of other gods, it just says if you worship Him you must hold Him as your only god. I should note that I'm using "Him," as English has no widely accepted gender neutral pronoun. I don't believe God has a gender. That's a human trait.

I accept both faith and science as equally valid. Deep time is valid. The Earth is roughly 4.54 bn years old. The universe is roughly 13.82 bn years old. Evolution is a fact in my mind. The precise mechanism may be murky, but the fact of it is indisputable.

The universe is an orderly place. If even one thing was different, we wouldn't be here to ponder the universe in the first place. That precise order is a peek behind the veil, so to speak. If the universe is a precision machine, there is a machinist who built it, no?


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## ODFFA (May 6, 2014)

The Dark Lady said:


> Teeheehee . . . you were expecting this to predominantly be a Christian thread, but the first person to respond is me.
> 
> I guess you could call me a pagan if you needed a term for it, or maybe just a witch. I believe in magic(k), signs, dreams, spirits who live in every corner of the earth & sky & beyond, other worlds beyond the veil, stuff like that. I also believe that everything science has been able to surmise about the history of the earth is accurate, and evolution and the long age of the planet/universe are facts of existence. But I also believe that somewhere outside of this fact-based reality is another realm where only the truths we imagine and believe to be true are supreme, and maybe that's the place we access in our dreams. Maybe it's the place we come from before birth and return to after death.
> 
> But mostly, I believe spirituality is the art of living your own stories. If you're your own storyteller, you come up with your own explanations for the strange things that happen in your life. A lot of people don't trust their own inner voices or storytelling power, so they look to others to tell them the stories they should believe in, and that's organized religion. I'm one of those people who tells her own stories, and I may believe in many gods and goddesses, but I bow down to none.



THIS! ^

Though my transition to these pagan beliefs still feels quite recent and I've been taking the actual _practice _of said magic(k) very slow..... up to now 

Growing up I was a really devout christian, despite us almost never setting foot in church as a family. I started going during my late teens and into my first two years of university. I experienced a few different denominations of christianity, before gradually starting to question everything and recognising what it is I truly think and believe.


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## Surlysomething (May 6, 2014)

Good luck with this thread and that's all i'm going to say about it.

Haha


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## Jon Blaze (May 6, 2014)

I identify as a Christian. I was raised in a Baptist household, and my dog tags say Protestant. It acts as a base for much of my worldview and beyond. I didn't really question my faith growing up, but did have moments where I questioned some of the dominant viewpoints. 

I had what I consider to be my quarter-life crisis three years ago. I was ambitious, but I wasn't progressing as a person. I was just dealing with a lot of my circumstances rather than making attempts to change them. I started losing my sense of self, and it was crushing me. 

After that period, I became more curious about spirituality. I did not necessarily lose my faith, but I changed my perspective. Faith is not enough in my opinion. To me, being spiritual is about your character and behavior: Not what you believe in. I've learned over time to separate religion from spirituality, and to take a more active role in the latter. 

Though I still identify with being a Christian, my spiritual practices are heavily influenced by Buddhism, Buddhist psychology, and transpersonal spirituality. I still have a lot to learn, but it's gotten to the point that in considering a potential career as a chaplain, I still consider Buddhism as an option (but I can't have a family in most sects :/). If I am blessed enough to become a therapist in the future, I am already looking at incorporating it into my practice (both in orientation and modality [MBCT]). I wrote my thesis on meditation as an adjunct practice to psychotherapy.

I'm struggling with balancing acceptance with making changes and trying to integrate Buddhism with Christian principles, but I am much more positive. 

"Life is growth. If we stop growing, technically and spiritually, we are as good as dead." - Morihei Uesiba


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## Donna (May 6, 2014)

Aww, Surly. I have high hopes for this thread. I like talking about religion and finding out how other people practice and believe. 

If pressed, I tell people I am a Christian Witch. I'm a follower of Christ who believes and practices magick. 

I was raised Pentecostal. I'm talking speaking in tongues, fainting, wrath of God every Sunday morning Pentecostal. I was a talkative, opinionated kid, much to the chagrin of my Maternal Grandmother. She used to swear that the spirit of God would enter me when we went to church because I was so quiet and well behaved. Truth was, I was scared to death. 

In my late teens I started reading about alternative religions. I attended a lot of different Christian churches, but the idea organized religion bothered me. I had a low tolerance for hypocrisy and dogma. So I wandered and continued to read. I finally settled in Paganism and that's where I was pretty happy for many years. Until I went through the degrees and became a Gardnerian Wiccan. It's a beautiful practice, and for those Heathens with the discipline for formal rites, I highly recommend it. 

When I met my husband, I still considered myself Pagan, but I was slowly incorporating the Christian mythos of my youth into my rites and beliefs. Chuck is an ordained minister. We had a lot of long discussions about religion when we first got together. Actually we still do. There are a great many parallels between Paganism and Christianity and it's in those parallels that I tend to find myself. A spell is nothing more than a prayer request, with props. The Bible says, "to everything there is a season," and so the Wheel of the Year turns. I feel that knowing the historical roots of many Christian practices and holidays doesn't detract from them, it deepens them. 

I do best away from a strict dogma. I recognize that my path doesn't work for everyone.


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## ScreamingChicken (May 6, 2014)

Let's start at the very beginning...

For 20 years , starting at birth I was a card carrying Catholic. Altar boy, parish religious classes, children's choir, even a stint as a chaplain's aide in the Boy Scouts. I started to distance myself from the church when I was 21. I was becoming disenchanted with the hypocrisy I saw in the Church. This coincided with me marrying a woman who came from a staunch Southern Baptist background. I would attend services with her, more to keep the peace then anything. let's just say I bit my tongue a lot and I just wasn't thrilled with the notion of a church service that felt like a TV production (the hypocrisy as well). When are kids arrived, I agreed for them to be raised as Southern Baptist. I figured better they be guided by a devoted Southern Baptist than a Catholic whose heart wasn't in it.

Outside of funerals and weddings, I've attended a few Methodist services that I found appealing. I rather liked the vibe I picked up on. I found it very different from my experiences at the Southern Baptist. 

If you ask me what I believe in, I believe that there is a God...and other than that I am not to sure. I tend to identify myself as a recovering Catholic and a Jedi (more for laughs than anything. A part of me believes that God made everything then backed off to leave us to our own devices. And I am not a big fan of organized religion. I am not fond of making a public spectacle out of my own personal beliefs.


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## AuntHen (May 6, 2014)

I am a Christian. I believe in God, Jesus, the Bible, yep. 

I think you would find me like some Christians you may know and I think you would find me far different from some Christians you may know. I think some of my fellow Christians would be very surprised at some of the things I think and believe.

My faith is ever evolving, growing...


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## Ninja Glutton (May 7, 2014)

Positively no offense to any of you, but discussions like this make me want to rant like a militant atheist and then hide in a corner.

I just want to come in here and say I respect you all, but I fit in about as well in faith/spiritual discussions as I do into child's size clothing.

Carry on


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## AuntHen (May 7, 2014)

^ That doesn't offend me at all but may I ask why it makes you feel that way?

If it's an option to read/participate in this thread (I tend to stay away from threads that I have no interest in) and nothing here is being pushed on you, why does it give you that reaction?


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## Amaranthine (May 7, 2014)

The tendency of atheists to go on "militant rants" irks me sometimes. Not that I can't understand it, or where it comes from. Just, atheists already have a bad enough reputation, and it only gets worse when people only see the ones who hunt out religious topics and go to town. I very much have a "live and let live" policy. I definitely don't think there's one system that works for everyone. Each person should individually tune into what works for them. In the end - ignoring institutionalized religion and things of that matter being pulled into politics - I'm much less focused on "truth" than I am happiness. 

As for me, I'm an agnostic atheist. Agnostic epistemologically, meaning that I don't think that sort of knowledge (of a higher power, deity, anything beyond the physical) is accessible to us. But functionally and belief-wise, I'm an atheist. 

I kind of _want_ to fit into this discussion, but I'm not sure I do. I generally think along physicalist lines - meaning there's nothing for me to have faith in, and I don't really believe in the concept of a soul or spirit (at least in the typical sense.) So instead of practicing something more clearly faith-based or spiritual, I enjoy exploring and understanding the physical world/myself as a physical being. That encompasses reveling in/refining sense experiences, learning about how the world works, how my own physiology works, and learning about others. I suppose it's best described as analyzing the relationship between myself, others, and the world at large to optimize the experience for everyone I can. I've made a habit of trying to put myself in the perspective of the person who created whatever I'm experiencing - like, music. I find it allows me to experience it more fully, rather than writing it off. It can be easy to just dismiss something immediately, but putting effort into understanding/enjoying a multitude of things is more meaningful/fun to me.

Philosophically, I draw tidbits from multiple sources. I don't believe in inherent meaning to life, but I agree with the Existentialist notion that each individual is fully responsible for shaping their own existence. I like the Daoist teaching of following nature - particularly, following your own nature and not allowing external forces to redirect you towards something that feels personally artificial. And the Stoic & Epicurean ideas of letting go of that which you can't control and focusing on your own thoughts and reactions. 

For a possible connection to something very old, Shamanism, I do enjoy alteration of consciousness and find it very personally fulfilling (and beneficial to many of the things I mentioned earlier here.) I'm naturally too curious for my own good, so tinkering with the organ that controls our perception of the world/reality is hugely interesting to me.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 7, 2014)

Amaranthine said:


> The tendency of atheists to go on "militant rants" irks me sometimes. Not that I can't understand it, or where it comes from. Just, atheists already have a bad enough reputation, and it only gets worse when people only see the ones who hunt out religious topics and go to town. I very much have a "live and let live" policy. I definitely don't think there's one system that works for everyone. Each person should individually tune into what works for them. In the end - ignoring institutionalized religion and things of that matter being pulled into politics - I'm much less focused on "truth" than I am happiness.
> 
> As for me, I'm an agnostic atheist. Agnostic epistemologically, meaning that I don't think that sort of knowledge (of a higher power, deity, anything beyond the physical) is accessible to us. But functionally and belief-wise, I'm an atheist.
> 
> ...



I didn't want to sound like I was ranting or hating on anyone because I'm really not. It just irks me that, in this day and age, it's assumed that atheists have to be the ones with the burden of proof. As if I'm the one that should have to defend my lack of faith for logical reasons against someone who just "feels it in their heart." I wasn't trying to stir the pot or rattle anyone's cages or attention whore with that post. It's more that I can't weigh in on discussions of "spirituality" or "faith" because I don't find the idea of a soul to be any different from the idea of a body. 

I think, in terms of countless studies, that it's been proven time and time again that consciousness is a biological process and damaging certain parts of the brain can render people colorblind, losing the ability to speak, or having physiological reactions that prove that each part of the brain is a functioning piece of the whole, that your personality is pre-determined by a combination of experience and random occurrence.

I also think that the holistic, new age "spiritual" view of things is just an optimistic way of dealing with the fact that you will die someday. You don't want to align yourself with the crazy right wing reactionary gun-toters, but you don't want to be some smile-less "atheist" either. I get it. I understand. I respect absolutely everyone's thoughts on everything, but that doesn't mean I won't argue or probe or be skeptical. It's just my nature.

I'm not an absolutist in any sense, so even the term "atheist" bothers me a bit. I just align myself with them because it's the only way to take a side. I feel a bit like "agnostic" is like saying "I dunno... maybe" when someone asks you an opinion.

Really, the idea of religion just offends me because of the hate-filled violence, segregation, social classism, and moral elitism that it's fostered and continues to foster to this day. I would be happy to live in a world without it.


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## lucca23v2 (May 7, 2014)

Personally I was raised Christian. I consider myself a Christian who has read the bible conver to cover, and I still read it. I find strength and comfort in it.

lol.. the imagine of a grown man trying to get into child size clothing.. funny as hell. smh.. too funny



Ninja Glutton said:


> I just want to come in here and say I respect you all, but I fit in about as well in faith/spiritual discussions as I do into child's size clothing.
> 
> Carry on


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## cinnamitch (May 7, 2014)

Being from the south, I was raised Southern Baptist. I went to church for a bit when I was younger, but never enjoyed going and stopped when I was 9. I'm not a big bible reader and never have been. I do believe in God. I have died once and did indeed find peace and drifted towards a bright light before being sent back because it was not my time to go. I don't have answers to many questions other than I do believe in Free Will. I feel we all have it and it gives everyone the opportunity to do good or bad and that's why we have victims of crimes, disasters, etc. Rather simplistic view, but it has worked for me. Have nothing against other religions or of people who are not religious. It's not my place to judge. My daughter is an atheist and we have never butted heads over it.


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## AuntHen (May 7, 2014)

Snipped...


Ninja Glutton said:


> Really, the idea of religion just offends me because of the hate-filled violence, segregation, social classism, and moral elitism that it's fostered and continues to foster to this day. I would be happy to live in a world without it.



I understand this and it makes me think of something a "preacher" once said... "the problem with the church, is that there are people in it".

Power hunger, greed, selfishness, etc., can corrupt individuals and those type of people using something (such as religion) for those purposes, can/does make it seem corrupt as well.


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## Tad (May 7, 2014)

A couple of mostly irrelevant, but hopefully not too irreverent, thoughts that popped into my head while thinking about this thread.

1) Based on the joke "Do agnostic, dyslexic, insomniacs lie awake at night wondering if Dog exists?" I frequently mentally use 'dog' in phrases where we normally use 'god' (as in: "Good dog, it cost it how much?"). Somehow I feel that, at least in my own thoughts, it makes for cleaner agnosticism to de-deify my language. Since I don't expect anyone else to understand, I try to find alternate phrasing when I translate things to the outside world.

2) During my brooding teenage years I listened to this song a LOT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwHfaK_A9sc (Blasphemous Rumours by Depeche Mode). Eventually it helped me conclude that I was agnostic, rather than a disillusioned believer. Go-go pop music!


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## Donna (May 7, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> I didn't want to sound like I was ranting or hating on anyone because I'm really not. It just irks me that, in this day and age, it's assumed that atheists have to be the ones with the burden of proof. As if I'm the one that should have to defend my lack of faith for logical reasons against someone who just "feels it in their heart." I wasn't trying to stir the pot or rattle anyone's cages or attention whore with that post. It's more that I can't weigh in on discussions of "spirituality" or "faith" because I don't find the idea of a soul to be any different from the idea of a body.
> 
> *snipped*



Interesting that you feel like you have to defend your belief in logic over spirituality/belief. A lot of the time I as a spiritual/believer feel the same way...that I have to defend or prove my faith. I remember a philosophy teacher asked a class I was in once, "Who is stronger: the atheist who places his belief in logic and science, or the religious person who places his belief in the unproven/unseen?" The debate that followed was fascinating. 

The angry, condescending atheist stereotype isn't really the norm, is it? I have always wondered if the majority of atheists feel the same way about that stereotype that a lot of Christians do about the extremist nut jobs who use religion as a tool of hate.

ETA: thank you for sharing and clarifying your views. I don't often get the chance to interact with many atheists (I don't personally know any,) and my experiences have always ran to the stereotypical atheist I mentioned above.


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## bayone (May 7, 2014)

Donna said:


> If pressed, I tell people I am a Christian Witch. I'm a follower of Christ who believes and practices magick.
> 
> I was raised Pentecostal. I'm talking speaking in tongues, fainting, wrath of God every Sunday morning Pentecostal.



Oh that's interesting. I don't know much about Pentecostals beyond the stereotypes but I suppose there is something about the speaking-in-tongues part that is a bit like shamanism or being ridden by the loa.

I think a lot of the pagans I've met were raised Catholic, and one of them commented once that the two have far more in common than _either_ side wants to admit.

I currently feel like a Christian Agnostic -- I don't think it's possible to prove or disprove the existence of god, and I suspect trying to do either is missing the point. I've also come to suspect belief/non-belief is like handedness or sexual orientation -- doesn't affect your morals either way, and trying to change yourself from one to the other will make you miserable at best and a hypocrite at worst.

OK, someone else can have the soapbox.


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## MattB (May 7, 2014)

I've tried to post a response here a few times, and to be honest I just couldn't do it. I could just drop a quick one sentence description of my beliefs and be done with it, but I'm sure we can all agree it's rarely that simple. Before I try to say...something...about my personal beliefs, let me just say how impressed I am with the level of respect I've seen so far in this discussion. It's not my intention to distract from the conversation by pointing that out, I'm just pleased to see it. 

Let's see...simply put- I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any theistic God, I just believe in nature***, in myself, and I think the universe pretty much exists despite us. I stopped going to church when I was 10 years old and have never been back. I've read the bible twice since then, honestly looking for something there, but it really meant nothing to me. 

My struggles with religion over the years, particularly Christianity since that was my upbringing, in retrospect were my own doing. Looking for something else to believe in, instead of following what I instinctively knew to be true in my heart. Denying my true nature. I was born this way, it just took way too long to embrace it fully. I'm at peace with where I'm at now. I will still be inquisitive about things, but I'm fairly certain the "answers to the universe" won't be answered in my lifetime. Best to just enjoy the ride while we are here.

At Christmas time, I have and always will say Merry Christmas. I love watching the Ten Commandments at Easter, it's one of my favourite movies, but I get no religious lift from it. I guess what I'm saying is just because I don't believe in something, it doesn't give me carte blanche to be a gratuitous ass to people who don't deserve it. I don't feel the need or desire in constantly broadcasting my beliefs to others either, and to be honest even posting this is making me feel icky right now. I prefer to just exist, have a good convo with friends on the subject when the situation arises, and move on. 

***Not to be confused with hippie-esque tree-hugging.


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## FatAndProud (May 7, 2014)

I'm an atheist  I'm proud of it and have been threatened, kicked out of a car, and prayed for because I'm damned to the all firey Hell. I recently denied communion of my mother's pastor (he came to the house, as my mother is disabled and I was there for support). He looked at me as though I was a serial killer and said my faith needed to be renewed. He then went to the back of my yard (a good 20 ft) and placed a "Jesus loves you" paper on my car. I found it very rude and offensive. I politely declined his biblical traditions and was in no way offensive. I have many more stories like this ..lol

I was raised Lutheran (it's like being Catholic, but our pastors get to touch vaginas). I love studying religions and comparing the social policies of the time of their theological origin. I can go on and on why I am atheist, but I tolerate those with faith because I am moral. All atheists aren't ignorant hate mongers - pay attention to the ones that did their research and ask "why are you atheist?", but be prepared to get your panties bunched up from such a loaded question.

I have my reasons they range from childhood indoctrination, gender roles, sociobiological and economical prosperity.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 7, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> Personally I was raised Christian. I consider myself a Christian who has read the bible conver to cover, and I still read it. I find strength and comfort in it.
> 
> lol.. the imagine of a grown man trying to get into child size clothing.. funny as hell. smh.. too funny



I once tried to fit into my elementary school t-shirt (because it seriously rocks) and it barely fit over my right arm.



fat9276 said:


> Snipped...
> 
> I understand this and it makes me think of something a "preacher" once said... "the problem with the church, is that there are people in it".
> 
> Power hunger, greed, selfishness, etc., can corrupt individuals and those type of people using something (such as religion) for those purposes, can/does make it seem corrupt as well.



I agree completely with your preacher. The radical ideas of Jesus in reference to respecting onself and others, pacifism, communal sharing of resources and supporting our weakest and most desperate members of society are beautiful concepts, but they don't make up for the misogynistic, homophobic, racist, vengeful, insecure, and petty parts of the Christian god that people like to completely glaze over.



Donna said:


> Interesting that you feel like you have to defend your belief in logic over spirituality/belief. A lot of the time I as a spiritual/believer feel the same way...that I have to defend or prove my faith. I remember a philosophy teacher asked a class I was in once, "Who is stronger: the atheist who places his belief in logic and science, or the religious person who places his belief in the unproven/unseen?" The debate that followed was fascinating.
> 
> The angry, condescending atheist stereotype isn't really the norm, is it? I have always wondered if the majority of atheists feel the same way about that stereotype that a lot of Christians do about the extremist nut jobs who use religion as a tool of hate.
> 
> ETA: thank you for sharing and clarifying your views. I don't often get the chance to interact with many atheists (I don't personally know any,) and my experiences have always ran to the stereotypical atheist I mentioned above.



I guess it depends on where you live. I always felt like the atheists were the underdogs who had to assert themselves as people who weren't just teenagers rebelling against their parents. I'm 28 and my parents still think my lack of belief/faith is "just a phase" that I'll grow out of when I'm older. 

I was raised Catholic and followed all their rules until they wanted to put me through confirmation and I refused. My childhood at church mainly consisted of me playing with Ninja Turtles action figures while sitting backwards on the kneel stool thingy. I think I always knew how I felt, but I guess I was ashamed about it until I was a teenager because I didn't want to disrespect or disappoint my peers or parents.

I feel that people think angry, bitter atheists are the majority, but I can tell you that that's not true at all. I find the lack of an afterlife and one, finite life beautiful. The nothingness is comforting to think about sometimes. I like random occurrences and it helps me realize the beautiful simplicity of the world around me. 

I argue against a conscious design of the world around us because there are so many flaws. Beautiful, wonderful flaws, but flaws nonetheless. To take a page out of NDT's book, how can we believe this universe was designed solely for us when 99.99% of it would kill us instantly with even the most fleeting of exposure to it?

Thank you all for being so kind to me thus far. I'm glad other atheists/agnostics are coming out of the woodwork to contribute. I enjoy discourse and I've enjoyed reading all of your personal anecdotes and philosophies.


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## The Dark Lady (May 7, 2014)

It's so nice to see so many other witches here! If this thread hadn't been started, I never would've guessed at who really practiced what on Dims.



LeoGibson said:


> No worries. Some would posit that your belief predates most, if not all of the world's religions.
> 
> I'll be honest though and admit I know very little about paganism as such, other than how the Pentecostal church I was raised in viewed such beliefs, which were rather unkind to say the least. Out of curiosity's sake, was that a belief you were raised with or something you found during your own spiritual searching?



Paganism's a very loosely defined term in the modern pagan communities since it's most often used as an umbrella term to cover all those who fall outside the modern big religions, such as the Judeo-Christian traditions, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Those who feel the call to certain ancient pantheons (Greco-Roman, Egyptian, Pre-Columbian American, etc.) tend to incorporate those deities into their belief systems & practices in an individually eclectic manner, taking whatever fulfills their spiritual needs as the situations arise. Wicca and Asatru are modern reconstructions of our best guesses at what some pre-Christian European belief systems & practices were like. And then you have the atheist witches who don't believe in deities at all but still believe in magic(k). So to say I'm a pagan is to acknowledge that what I personally believe in doesn't really resemble any other individual pagan's belief set since we're all united under that term in an extremely general & loosely-connected way.

I was originally raised in a very hippy-inspired, pseudo-Christian kind of way: believe in the Christian God & practice the Occult at the same time. I have a lil bit of a family history of doing it that way, & the past three or four generations that I know about tended to all practice divination at the very least. My mom initiated me into reading cards when I was thirteen, and my dad always encouraged me to be skeptical of everything while also warning me never to invite strange spirits into the house, but I developed my beliefs mostly on my own. Ended up breaking family tradition by being the first to self-identify as a witch, drop the connection to that conception of "God," & accept the presence of other mythical entities in my life.



ODFFA said:


> THIS! ^
> 
> Though my transition to these pagan beliefs still feels quite recent and I've been taking the actual _practice _of said magic(k) very slow..... up to now
> 
> Growing up I was a really devout christian, despite us almost never setting foot in church as a family. I started going during my late teens and into my first two years of university. I experienced a few different denominations of christianity, before gradually starting to question everything and recognising what it is I truly think and believe.



We definitely need to speak more about this! I'm aghast & flabbered I never found this out about you until now!


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## Ninja Glutton (May 7, 2014)

Oh, and blessed be to all you Pagans out there


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## lucca23v2 (May 8, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> My childhood at church mainly consisted of me playing with Ninja Turtles action figures while sitting backwards on the kneel stool thingy.



lol....You were cool even at that young age huh? lol


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## lucca23v2 (May 8, 2014)

Ninja G - As stated not all Chistians are radicals. 

Personally I like all of Luke chapter 6. It covers judging others and how you should treat your "enemies". 

That chapter seems to get past the radicals.


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## AuntHen (May 8, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> I agree completely with your preacher. The radical ideas of Jesus in reference to respecting onself and others, pacifism, communal sharing of resources and supporting our weakest and most desperate members of society are beautiful concepts, but *they don't make up for the misogynistic, homophobic, racist, vengeful, insecure, and petty parts of the Christian god that people like to completely glaze over.
> *
> 
> 
> .




Well, he was saying something serious in a joke... that there are so many differing personalities and levels of maturity that it gets in the way/ causes problems to what should be peaceful and uplifting. Is that what you are agreeing with?

The part of your comment I bolded, are words I have commonly heard from other atheists. Do you base this on how certain people behave/have said to you or what you have studied/read about it?


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## lille (May 8, 2014)

When asked what my religion is I usually just say I was raised Catholic, which I was. My family went to church every Sunday and I received all the sacraments except for confirmation. I decided about a week before it was supposed to happen, after doing all the classes and whatnot that I wasn't positive this is what I believed and so I didn't want to stand up say it was if I wasn't really sure. My parents had me talk to the priest, who is one of my favorite people, and he agreed with my decision. I continued to go to church with my family though my attendance dropped off once I went to college. However, during my senior year of high school and all through college I attended a Congregational church once a month to play bass guitar in their praise band.

I haven't figured out exactly what I personally believe yet. I believe in science and doubt the presence of God, but at the same time I have also had extremely moving religious experiences that make me think that maybe God is out there. I find the idea of God and Christ to be comforting and because I was raised in Catholic church I am drawn to many of the traditions, but I am not a big fan of the Church as an organization and don't agree with all of its teachings. I do like the new Pope and he gives me hope for the Church.

Most of my moving spiritual moments involve music. There are quite a few songs during mass that will get me teary eyed. There's something so powerful to me about a group of people all singing together. That and I just really love how songs in latin sound. I was moved to tears during Adoration at a Catholic Youth retreat one year, which is the one time I have ever really felt anything in a religious setting when music was not involved.

Edit: I realized that Catholics may be the only ones who practice Adoration and it may need some explanation. Catholics believe that the Eucharist (bread) is not just a symbol, they believe that it literally becomes the body of Christ. Adoration is when the Eucharist is placed in a giant fancy shmancy gold holder called a monstrance, and you just sit in the presence of Christ. So in the above religious experience imagine 3,000 teenagers pus chaperones and priests sitting pretty silently (except for crying) under a tent while this is going on.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 8, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> Well, he was saying something serious in a joke... that there are so many differing personalities and levels of maturity that it gets in the way/ causes problems to what should be peaceful and uplifting. Is that what you are agreeing with?
> 
> The part of your comment I bolded, are words I have commonly heard from other atheists. Do you base this on how certain people behave/have said to you or what you have studied/read about it?



I was agreeing with what your preacher implied about humans ruining religions, and then equating it to religious texts. The Bible itself is full of all the latter parts of my statement, but it was also written, edited, condensed and translated by the hand of man, so his logic still applies. Whatever good things may have been present in the original sermons of Jesus, if that's what you believe, they've been nearly completely lost by countless years of propagandizing and twisting the words to suit human needs.

The part you bolded is what I have seen in the words of the bible themselves. Women are painted as more of a villain in the bible than the devil himself. God is vengeful. God is petty. According to the words in the bible, that's a god I would have a lot of trouble respecting or worshipping.


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## AuntHen (May 8, 2014)

^ -Specific women or do you mean women in general?
- Could you please offer some examples of what vengeance or pettiness you are referring to?


By the way, thanks for answering my questions


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## Ninja Glutton (May 8, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> ^ -Specific women or do you mean women in general?
> - Could you please offer some examples of what vengeance or pettiness you are referring to?
> 
> 
> By the way, thanks for answering my questions



Women in general:

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

Being a whore punishable by incineration? Seems kind of harsh.

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

So a female child is less pure than a male child, basically?

"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)

Rape is not fitting for a man, but it's fine for a woman I suppose?

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

Women live for men only and must submit to them? Got it.

And, specifically, god is vengeful and petty in his own commandments. All other gods besides him cannot be worshipped or it is not only a penalty of pain and suffering, but EVERLASTING pain and suffering. Talk about your insecurities... 

"2 The LORD is a jealous and vengeful God; the LORD is vengeful and strong in wrath. The LORD is vengeful against his foes; he rages against his enemies. 3 The LORD is very patient but great in power; the LORD punishes. His way is in whirlwind and storm; clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He can blast the sea and make it dry up; he can dry up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; the bud of Lebanon withers. 5 The mountains quake because of him; the hills melt away. The earth heaves before him— the world and all who dwell in it. 6 Who can stand before his indignation? Who can confront the heat of his fury? His wrath pours out like fire; the rocks are shattered because of him. 7 The LORD is good, a haven in a day of distress. He acknowledges those who take refuge in him. 8 With a rushing flood, he will utterly destroy her place and pursue his enemies into darkness." (Nahum 1:2-8)

He's a jealous, insecure, petty being that wants nothing more than the absolute devotion of all of his followers, and anyone who doesn't want to be his follower is damned to hell and everlasting pain. Unbaptized babies are rotting in hell. Aborted babies are rotting in hell. I think that's horrible to even consider.

I could go on. I don't make sweeping generalizations without research. I've read the bible myself.

This isn't meant to sound snarky or condescending in any way, and it's hard to tell through text. I was just trying to paraphrase the passages a bit.


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## Surlysomething (May 8, 2014)

This rocked.

And you write very well. 




Ninja Glutton said:


> Women in general:
> 
> "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)
> 
> ...


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## AuntHen (May 8, 2014)

Snipped


Ninja Glutton said:


> Unbaptized babies are rotting in hell. Aborted babies are rotting in hell. I think that's horrible to even consider.




I am commenting on this specific portion, because it sticks out the most for me right now. I do not believe in infant baptism nor do I think children and/or babies go to hell if they are not. I understand this to be a widely accepted/taught "Catholic" (and other various denominations) belief but because of verses such as these, I believe children are innocent (sin free, if you will) and go straight to heaven when they pass.

Luke 18:16 ~ 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Matthew 18:2-4 ~ "And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven…"


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## Ninja Glutton (May 8, 2014)

Surlysomething said:


> This rocked.
> 
> And you write very well.



Thank you! A Surly compliment means like 100x more than the average person's compliment.



fat9276 said:


> Snipped
> 
> 
> I am commenting on this specific portion, because it sticks out the most for me right now. I do not believe in infant baptism nor do I think children and/or babies go to hell if they are not. I understand this to be a widely accepted/taught "Catholic" (and other various denominations) belief but because of this verse and other things (i.e. the account with Nicodemus), I believe children are innocent (sin free, if you will) and go straight to heaven when they pass.
> ...



I'm glad you feel that way.


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## Dromond (May 8, 2014)

You can find amazing beauty, awfulness, and even porn in the Bible. It's not a single document, but hundreds that have been bound together.

I don't get fussed over people quoting from Leviticus specifically, or the OT in general to justify their dislike of Christianity. To me that reveals that while they may have read the Bible, they didn't really understand it. Yes, I'm including some of my fellow Christians in this category. The Old Testament is history. "What has gone before," if you will. The rules, laws, and stories in the OT are for the semi-nomadic desert tribesmen that the Jews were at the time. They were never for the goyim. It described the Covenant God had with Israel, and laid out the rules for them to follow to keep the people "pure" for the savior. Well, the savior came, the Covenant was fulfilled, and Jesus laid out new rules to live by. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. That sort of thing. Rules that applied to everyone, not just Jews. Those passages in Leviticus that both the fundies and Christophobes love to quote have zero relevance to the modern world. Ancient history is all it is.


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## lille (May 8, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> Snipped
> 
> 
> I am commenting on this specific portion, because it sticks out the most for me right now. I do not believe in infant baptism nor do I think children and/or babies go to hell if they are not. I understand this to be a widely accepted/taught "Catholic" (and other various denominations) belief but because of verses such as these, I believe children are innocent (sin free, if you will) and go straight to heaven when they pass.
> ...


The Pope (I believe it was John Paul II) said it completely ok for Catholics to believe unbaptized and aborted babies go to heaven. The belief before that was that they go to purgatory and we have to pray for them to get to heaven.


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## LeoGibson (May 8, 2014)

Dromond said:


> You can find amazing beauty, awfulness, and even porn in the Bible. It's not a single document, but hundreds that have been bound together.
> 
> I don't get fussed over people quoting from Leviticus specifically, or the OT in general to justify their dislike of Christianity. To me that reveals that while they may have read the Bible, they didn't really understand it. Yes, I'm including some of my fellow Christians in this category. The Old Testament is history. "What has gone before," if you will. The rules, laws, and stories in the OT are for the semi-nomadic desert tribesmen that the Jews were at the time. They were never for the goyim. It described the Covenant God had with Israel, and laid out the rules for them to follow to keep the people "pure" for the savior. Well, the savior came, the Covenant was fulfilled, and Jesus laid out new rules to live by. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. That sort of thing. Rules that applied to everyone, not just Jews. Those passages in Leviticus that both the fundies and Christophobes love to quote have zero relevance to the modern world. Ancient history is all it is.



Why must I wait to rep you? You summed up nearly exactly the way I see things in your first post here, as well as gave me some new things to look into and with this post you just saved me a lot of typing. Considered it repped in spirit! (Pun intended).


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## AuntHen (May 8, 2014)

^ agreed and I got him


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## Ninja Glutton (May 8, 2014)

Dromond said:


> You can find amazing beauty, awfulness, and even porn in the Bible. It's not a single document, but hundreds that have been bound together.
> 
> I don't get fussed over people quoting from Leviticus specifically, or the OT in general to justify their dislike of Christianity. *To me that reveals that while they may have read the Bible, they didn't really understand it.* Yes, I'm including some of my fellow Christians in this category. The Old Testament is history. "What has gone before," if you will. The rules, laws, and stories in the OT are for the semi-nomadic desert tribesmen that the Jews were at the time. They were never for the goyim. It described the Covenant God had with Israel, and laid out the rules for them to follow to keep the people "pure" for the savior. Well, the savior came, the Covenant was fulfilled, and Jesus laid out new rules to live by. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. That sort of thing. Rules that applied to everyone, not just Jews. Those passages in Leviticus that both the fundies and Christophobes love to quote have zero relevance to the modern world. Ancient history is all it is.



The Old Testament is still a part of religious, sacred holy text that the entirety of Christianity is founded upon. I don't really think you can just omit entire chapters because they don't fit the "hip, new" King James Bible.

If you're telling me misogyny is no part of the new testament, then maybe you have not read closely enough:

1 Corinthians 11:3-10 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

What part of this am I not understanding about the role of women as subordinate to men?


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## Dromond (May 8, 2014)

I have a certain animus against Paul, who wrote Corinthians. He was intent on wiping out Christianity until his Road to Damascus moment. Paul changed sides, he didn't change who he was. He was just as judgmental, bigoted, and misogynistic as he ever was, and it comes through in his writings. The subordination of women was never in Jesus' teachings. Paul was wrong.


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## AuntHen (May 8, 2014)

QUOTE=Ninja Glutton;2069168]The Old Testament is still a part of religious, sacred holy text that the entirety of Christianity is founded upon. I don't really think you can just omit entire chapters because they don't fit the "hip, new" King James Bible.

Yes and it's not about omitting it, it's about how does it apply to Christians? I think the book of Hebrews does the job to explain this. It starts off by telling how God used to talk to His people through prophets but now it's through His son. It talks about how they used to have the High Priest at the temple and the ceremony of washing but now Jesus is our High Priest, we are sanctified through Him. In chapter 10 it says "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins", then verse 10 goes on to say "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."


If you're telling me misogyny is no part of the new testament, then maybe you have not read closely enough:

1 Corinthians 11:3-10 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

What part of this am I not understanding about the role of women as subordinate to men?[/QUOTE]

In many of Paul's epistles, he was addressing issues that were popping up in the new church (congregations) that were relevant at the time. This one was to the "church at Corinth". The one you bring up about 1 Corinthians 11, I have read commentaries suggesting that Paul was addressing issues of prostitution among other things (prostitutes at that time had shaved heads, etc). I am not trying to wash it all away with that but we do have to look at the time it was written, what was going on and what were the roles of women at that time. How long have women's rights truly been around? Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 7:6 said "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment" seeming to imply he had no actual command to write certain things but permission to do so to serve a purpose.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 8, 2014)

I like that you both have found ways to attribute your own beliefs to simply Jesus' teachings. That's really nice to hear. To me, that is what the true Christian value system should be based upon.

I guess I just find it unusual because I'm so used to people citing the bible as the be-all, end-all of Christian thought. This may be stereotyping and I admit to my own anti-Christian biases wholeheartedly, but I find that majority of Christians that I meet consider the entire text of the bible to be a dogmatic layout of how they should run their lives.

While I fully respect and appreciate the two of you and your stance against the more harmful parts of the text, I don't know if I consider that true of the majority of so-called "Christians."

To me, though, it is people like you two who actually exhibit the Christian values rather than the "Christian" ones, if that makes any sort of sense.


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## bigmac (May 8, 2014)

I'm an atheist. Religion bores me. If I could go through life without ever having to deal with religion I'd be a happy camper. Unfortunately its a rare day when I don't have to deal with some sort of religious dogma.


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## Dromond (May 8, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I'm an atheist. Religion bores me. If I could go through life without ever having to deal with religion I'd be a happy camper. Unfortunately its a rare day when I don't have to deal with some sort of religious dogma.



Here we are, having a great discussion about faith among people of various faiths, and even no faith at all, everyone contributing positive and thought provoking posts, and then you waltz in and drop this load. Given your obvious contempt, I have to wonder why you even looked in this thread to begin with.


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## fat hiker (May 9, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Really, the idea of religion just offends me because of the hate-filled violence, segregation, social classism, and moral elitism that it's fostered and continues to foster to this day. I would be happy to live in a world without it.



Respectfully, how is this any different than what strict atheist philosophical systems encouraged throughout the 20th century? (I'm thinking of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all determined atheists.)

Any philosophical/spiritual system can be twisted. But one that commands its followers to love others (Christianity), to respect others and all of life (Buddhism), or to live thoughtfully in balance with others (Judaism, Taoism, Confucianism) can't be all bad.


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## fat hiker (May 9, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> but I find that majority of Christians that I meet consider the entire text of the bible to be a dogmatic layout of how they should run their lives.



Then the people you meet who you consider 'Christian' are a very small minority of the people who consider themselves 'Christian'. 

The Christian Left website is a fountain of ideas and knowledge from those Christians who are not 'dogmatic' about the bible.


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## Diana_Prince245 (May 9, 2014)

fat hiker said:


> Then the people you meet who you consider 'Christian' are a very small minority of the people who consider themselves 'Christian'. The Christian Left website is a fountain of ideas and knowledge from those Christians who are not 'dogmatic' about the bible.



I was an early follower of the Christian Left on Facebook. John Shore is an amazing Christian relationship/sex columnist who is nothing like Paul and his bullshit anti-sex nonsense .


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## Ninja Glutton (May 9, 2014)

fat hiker said:


> Respectfully, how is this any different than what strict atheist philosophical systems encouraged throughout the 20th century? (I'm thinking of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all determined atheists.)
> 
> Any philosophical/spiritual system can be twisted. But one that commands its followers to love others (Christianity), to respect others and all of life (Buddhism), or to live thoughtfully in balance with others (Judaism, Taoism, Confucianism) can't be all bad.



Picking out just 3 abhorrent atheists from history doesn't seem like a very good sample size. There aren't enough atheist societies in the 20th century to choose from for there to be much to compare them to, so I don't think that's a fair assessment. 

Atheism as it exists today is usually more tied with secular humanism. Rejecting dogma and pseudoscience and superstition is more what draws people to abandon the confines of most organized religion. I think it's folly to assume atheists lack moral compass and I feel like you may be implying that a bit by invoking the names that you have. Personally, I never needed an ethereal father or ideology to look over my shoulder and make sure I am leading a good life. I did it on my own.

I don't really consider Buddhism, at its inception, to be a religion so much as a philosophy. Taoism can also fall under that umbrella.

You can't tell me that the Judeo-Christian religions weren't responsible for more death, war, and tragedy in their lifespan than all of the political and territorial wars combined. I never said Christianity was 100% bad, but its good deeds are always cheapened in my eyes because they're selfish in nature. Schools are built in poor countries not really to educate the populace, but to indoctrinate them. Bringing food to hungry people is immediately followed by spreading to them the word of god and boxes of free bibles.

Frankly, it makes me happy that these days the churches know that they're losing footing and they have to come and recruit people with smiley glad hands instead of threatening people with death or societal exile like in days past. I'm happy to be a part of that movement because I feel that religion, in all of its supposed communal beauty, holds human beings back more than anything else in human society. I believe it's a chain around our necks that must be broken.


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## Tad (May 9, 2014)

*puts on moderator hat*

Folks--I think the point of this thread was for people to discuss what their personal spirituality and faith was (or wasn't). 

Discussions of the good or harm of organized religion, and the especially discussion of the relative merits of different approaches, would be better handled in Hyde Park. If you do want to have that discussion--and I have nothing against anyone who does--please feel free to start a thread over there.

I know people are probably mostly feeling that they are defending their point of view, but unfortunately this way lies drama, hurt feelings, and ideological arguments, which was clearly not in the spirit this thread was started.

Consider this a yellow card on the thread.

*gratefully takes off mod hat for now*


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## LeoGibson (May 9, 2014)

Tad said:


> *puts on moderator hat*
> 
> Folks--I think the point of this thread was for people to discuss what their personal spirituality and faith was (or wasn't).
> 
> ...



Actually, this type of discussion is exactly what I was hoping for. Not only a statement of personal belief but also an in-depth discussion of why people believe a certain way and the merits and drawbacks of any belief system. Including no belief at all. Just so long as everyone was respectful of different beliefs or lack thereof, which it seems everyone is doing here. 

Of course, as moderator it is your prerogative to shape this discussion in a different direction, but I wanted to put out there that an open, adult, and respect driven conversation is what I intended for this thread.


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## AuntHen (May 9, 2014)

^ Since Leo included my name on the original post, I will say that I also was wanting to be able to discuss and ask questions. Like he also said, you are the moderator but I hope we can be allowed a little lee-way.

This topic was being tried here, because in Hyde Park, it is doomed to explode and die 

I thought yesterday's discussion was awesome by the way. Just my 2 cents


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## Ninja Glutton (May 9, 2014)

I liked the discourse, and I felt everyone was being really respectful, and I hope I didn't de-rail the thread.

I like hearing everyone's opinions and reasons for why they feel the way they do too.

Thank you all for being kind and not dismissive.

It's been fun


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## Surlysomething (May 9, 2014)

Seriously? This is the place to be on Dims right now because it's a good read AND it's fun. It's a cool group of people for the most part. 

I don't see the problem.



Tad said:


> So far, so good  Although I have some concerns about how many "Lounge-type" threads we are starting on the BHM/FFA board. I can understand why people do it, but am pondering if it is a trend to encourage or not?


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## AuntHen (May 9, 2014)

Going back to the topic... 

Whether you believe the Bible to be fact or fiction, who is your favorite Bible character and why? 


While Jesus is a given, my favorite (non-deity) character is David. I love the book of Psalms. The man could really pour his heart out. I also relate to David. He was "the man after God's own heart" but he messed up, like a lot and in some horrible ways (the whole Bathsheba and Uriah thing). What I love about him, is that he would own up to his mistakes, lament over then and tried with all his might to correct his ways and/or do right. When he actually enters the scene he was basically this "little pretty boy" shepherd haha, that no one expected great things from but because of his heart, God saw the potential in him and used him for great things. Great things like, defeating Goliath and going on to be king of Israel.


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## bigmac (May 9, 2014)

Dromond said:


> Here we are, having a great discussion about faith among people of various faiths, and even no faith at all, everyone contributing positive and thought provoking posts, and then you waltz in and drop this load. Given your obvious contempt, I have to wonder why you even looked in this thread to begin with.




Its amazing how self-righteous religious people who regularly denigrate non-believers are so often thin skinned.

Apparently saying I find religion boring somehow set you off. I no idea why such an innocuous statement motivated a personal attack. I really don't care -- its really your problem not mine.


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## Tad (May 9, 2014)

OK, given the consensus that you all think things are still good, I'll back off.


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## lille (May 9, 2014)

I have a question for those of you who identified as Pagan and mentioned the practice of magic/k. I was wondering what sort of magic/k you practice and what that "looks like" for lack of a better word. I had a friend who is very into Tarot (she actually got me a deck) and used crystals, but that is the extent of my very limited experience with that sort of thing.


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## Dromond (May 9, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Its amazing how self-righteous religious people who regularly denigrate non-believers are so often thin skinned.
> 
> Apparently saying I find religion boring somehow set you off. I no idea why such an innocuous statement motivated a personal attack. I really don't care -- its really your problem not mine.



If your post had more depth than "I'm too cool for this school," I wouldn't have had a problem.


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## Surlysomething (May 9, 2014)

I think bigmac's post is just as relevant as anyone else's. This is how people feel allll over the place. Faith/spirituality doesn't always have to be about religions you choose, it can be about religions you don't choose and why.

Honestly, I wish people would start believing in themselves.

I know I said I wouldn't touch this thread, but why not. This pretty much sums it up for me:


*God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me
-John Lennon
*



Dromond said:


> Here we are, having a great discussion about faith among people of various faiths, and even no faith at all, everyone contributing positive and thought provoking posts, and then you waltz in and drop this load. Given your obvious contempt, I have to wonder why you even looked in this thread to begin with.


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## ODFFA (May 9, 2014)

The Dark Lady said:


> It's so nice to see so many other witches here! If this thread hadn't been started, I never would've guessed at who really practiced what on Dims.
> 
> We definitely need to speak more about this! I'm aghast & flabbered I never found this out about you until now!



HMU :kiss2:



lille said:


> I have a question for those of you who identified as Pagan and mentioned the practice of magic/k. I was wondering what sort of magic/k you practice and what that "looks like" for lack of a better word. I had a friend who is very into Tarot (she actually got me a deck) and used crystals, but that is the extent of my very limited experience with that sort of thing.



I feel like my experience is quite possibly just as limited, but here's a little ramble as to how I see it.

Well, let me start it off this way.... Here are some words I associate with the practice of magick -- intention, change, visualisation, ritual, symbolism, attraction, energy, psychology, mental focus and maybe, uh.... environmental/atmospheric manipulation?

I guess what I'm getting at is that magick is the practice of bringing about intentional change, using all sorts of different tools - with a good deal of emphasis being placed on the five elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit) for most Wiccans, at least. My personal belief is that it's a highly psychologically focused exercise, with a mystical/transcendental component to it. So the greatest change you're effecting is within yourself, and since 'everything is energy,' you're compelling your environment/the universe to go along with this change.

I've only performed one spell, but what that mostly looks like in verrrry general terms, is..... you take an object (an apple, a coin, something you've written down on a piece of paper.......), associate it with something / imbue it with a certain energy using visualisation; then you do something with that object. Carving something into it, burning it, burying it in the ground, throwing it into a body of water, letting it blow in the wind, etc etc etc. The crux of it, though, lies in the intentionality/mental focus you put into this ritualistic exercise. Making it feel auspicious, special and mystical helps to lend a kind of gravitas to it in your mind, and in the universe.

Hope that's not too vague and marginally helpful, and that others will weigh in. Feel free to ask more questions :happy:


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## ScreamingChicken (May 9, 2014)

Without a doubt, one of my favorite threads here at DIMS in a VERY long time. Bravo to everyone who has contributed in such a positive and respectful manner. :bow:

A question for the group....It appears that a significant number of us fall outside organized religion. Does anyone want to put forward any theories as to why ?


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## bigmac (May 9, 2014)

fat hiker said:


> Respectfully, how is this any different than what strict atheist philosophical systems encouraged throughout the 20th century? (I'm thinking of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all determined atheists.)
> 
> ...
> 
> .



Religious folks roll out this argument all the time. It fails because the battles fought by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not motivated by atheism. Rather they were motivated by economic and political doctrine. These communists viewed religion as tool used by the capitalist class. Opposition to religion by communists was thus only a means to an end -- not a motivating factor.

Religion has traditionally been used by rulers to control and motivate subjects and armies. Communists sought to undermine this. They were strategic atheists not philosophical atheists.


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## bigmac (May 9, 2014)

ScreamingChicken said:


> Without a doubt, one of my favorite threads here at DIMS in a VERY long time. Bravo to everyone who has contributed in such a positive and respectful manner. :bow:
> 
> A question for the group....It appears that a significant number of us fall outside organized religion. Does anyone want to put forward any theories as to why ?




Traditionally belonging to a religious group was the default position. Many people who were objectively not very religious would identify with a convenient mainstream church or religion because it was the easiest least controversial thing to do. The pressure to conform regarding religion is for many segments of society not as strong as it once was. Result, non-believers are the fastest growing "religious" category.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 9, 2014)

I have no idea whether or not there is a god (with or without a capital G). Come to that, I have no idea what might constitute a god ('God' is, mathematically speaking, a variable: different people plug different values into it). Nevertheless, it is not impossible that some sort of intelligence may be responsible for at least some of the things that happen to me. And so I pray. I pray several times a day, not to ask for anything, but just to say 'thank you' for anything that surprises and delights me (it doesn't take much: I'm easily amused). I figure that, if there is no god, it doesn't hurt anything; and if there _is_ a god, he (she, it) must get really tired of all the prayers of 'God gimme this; God gimme that.' I would anyway. So if there _is_ a god, maybe having somebody say, e.g., "That was a really great sunset; I just want you to know I enjoyed it," might make him (her, it) feel better. Plus, for me it underscores the wonder of everyday things and makes me less likely to take them for granted.


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## ODFFA (May 9, 2014)

I kinda just felt like saying how delighted I am to have atheists join the discussion of faith/spirituality. 

I know there are maaaany different things atheists believe about life etc, in addition to their belief that a theistic god most likely doesn't exist. So, by no means are the religiously or spiritually inclined folks the only ones who have faith per se.

And as an aside to that, has anyone seen any of the 'Atheist Experience' episodes on youtube? I really enjoy them, for the most part. Sure, there's a fair bit of snark, but I've found the show to be pretty enlightening personally.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 9, 2014)

I don't know if this is unrelated to the discussion, but I just recently heard that there's going to be a 24 hour atheist television channel, streamable through Roku.

It really makes me happy that nowadays there are actual venues and public spotlights for not only atheists, but every sect of human philosophical thought.

There's going to be a Satanic Black Mass at Harvard U in a few weeks, and the school is taking a "we're not associated with it, but we're all for the freedom" approach and that makes me happy.

Whatever your views, I delight in the fact that people of all backgrounds have a podium to stand on and shout. It may not be popular opinion, but it's opinion nonetheless.


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## LeoGibson (May 10, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> Going back to the topic...
> 
> Whether you believe the Bible to be fact or fiction, who is your favorite Bible character and why?




For me it has to be Job, with a close nod to Peter.

In Job's case, here was a man from whom the devil destroyed everything in his life to test his faith. Even when he lost it all, and when his close friends and even his wife told him to just, "Curse God and die," he refused. He held firm to his faith.

Peter as a close second, or 1a if you will because he really represents the struggle of man against the sinful nature we are born with. He loved Jesus with all his heart and yet when they came for him, all that went out the window for a brief instance and he went for the sword. That showed me that no matter who you are you can still falter from time to time because we are human. He felt great shame when he denied Christ those 3 times, but there was also forgiveness and redemption and that really drives home for me, the point of Jesus' purpose here on earth.


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## lille (May 10, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> HMU :kiss2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was definitely helpful.


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## Donna (May 10, 2014)

The magick I practice is mostly simple sympathetic spells and divination. I use an old, dark blue ceramic bowl my grandmother had, which I suspect she used for water scrying, instead of a cast iron cauldron. In a pinch, I have used a mirror to scry as well. (I say I suspect she used it for scrying because she never shared with me that she could do it. While learning about Paganism I read that a lot of the old Scots that settled in the Appalachian Mountain area of the U.S. still practice magick even though they consider themselves Christian, so more than likely my Grammy was what they call a "water witch.")

I like candle spells, probably because they are the easiest form of spell I know and they were the first I ever learned. If someone is sick, I will dress and burn an orange candle and say a prayer for healing and vitality. If someone is love sick, a red candle. Money problems? A green candle. Peace and cooperation needed? Light blue. Too much negativity and/or stress? White candle with sage to clear the negative energy. Dressing a candle simply means imbuing it with energy, which is released into the universe when you burn the candle, by anointing it with herbs and oils specific to the spell at hand. 

I've tried tarot and it's beautiful, but I never developed an affinity for it. I tried several decks and nothing ever really clicked. Same with Runes; they never really clicked for me.


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## Donna (May 10, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> I don't know if this is unrelated to the discussion, but I just recently heard that there's going to be a 24 hour atheist television channel, streamable through Roku.
> 
> It really makes me happy that nowadays there are actual venues and public spotlights for not only atheists, but every sect of human philosophical thought.
> 
> ...



I just read recently that Oklahoma is allowing Satanists to place a statue of Lucifer in the capital building, where it will sit near other religious statues. Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible sits next to all other religious texts in libraries and book stores. LaVey himself seemed more atheist to me; he didn't really believe in either God nor the Devil. To LaVey and his followers the Devil represents the darker/negative side of ourselves and they choose to embrace that side, rather than deny or turn away from it like the Christians do.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 10, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> Whether you believe the Bible to be fact or fiction, who is your favorite Bible character and why?



Samson is my personal favorite. He should be a comic book character. He fights lions, slays entire armies with the jawbone of an ass, and singlehandedly brings down temples with his superhuman strength. Like me, he puts too much faith in femme fatales and, unlike me, his power is derived from his hair. I think mine is derived from my bald head, personally. Anyhow, Samson is a certifiable badass. He sounds more like a character in Greek mythos than Christian and I'd want him on my superhero supersquad.


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## MattB (May 10, 2014)

Donna said:


> I just read recently that Oklahoma is allowing Satanists to place a statue of Lucifer in the capital building, where it will sit near other religious statues. Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible sits next to all other religious texts in libraries and book stores. LaVey himself seemed more atheist to me; he didn't really believe in either God nor the Devil. To LaVey and his followers the Devil represents the darker/negative side of ourselves and they choose to embrace that side, rather than deny or turn away from it like the Christians do.



LaVey was an atheist, as are the members of the Church of Satan. They don't actually worship the devil, since they don't believe in God or Satan. They believe in themselves as gods, Satan is used as a metaphor only.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 10, 2014)

Donna said:


> I just read recently that Oklahoma is allowing Satanists to place a statue of Lucifer in the capital building, where it will sit near other religious statues. Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible sits next to all other religious texts in libraries and book stores. LaVey himself seemed more atheist to me; he didn't really believe in either God nor the Devil. To LaVey and his followers the Devil represents the darker/negative side of ourselves and they choose to embrace that side, rather than deny or turn away from it like the Christians do.



Modern Satanists don't really consider it the "negative/dark" side of ourselves, though, they see it as personal freedom and liberation and individuality. They desecrate the sacraments at their masses not to cause an uproar, but to symbolically cast out what they consider "negative" values of abstinence, moderation, and stupidity.

They're not about Satanic worship so much as the metaphorical reverence of the idea of Satan and what it stands for in terms of being counter-culture and asserting that man is his own god.

High Priest Peter Gilmore stated "My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in the Devil or God, they are abdicating reason". Gilmore defines the word "Satan": "Satan is a model or a mode of behavior. Satan in Hebrew means 'adversary' or 'opposer'; one who questions."

Gilmore went on to add "Satanism begins with atheism. We begin with the universe and say, 'Its indifferent. Theres no God, theres no Devil. No one cares!'"

The Nine Satanic Statements:

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates.
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development", has become the most vicious animal of all.
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

The Nine Satanic Sins:

Stupidity
Pretentiousness
Solipsism
Self-deceit
Herd Conformity
Lack of Perspective
Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
Counterproductive Pride
Lack of Aesthetics

While I don't consider myself a Satanist, I hold certain aspects of the philosophy as true. I'm ever the skeptic and empiricist and I believe those pieces of the Satanist philosophy meld well with my own sense of being. I live for experience, knowledge, and questioning everything around me. I think that is the immeasurable privilege of consciousness and I never want to pick one thing to believe and stick to it. 

My perspective is always changing and I find it valuable to constantly empathize and attempt to see situations through other people's eyes. No one is a life martyr and everyone has their own private struggles. That's what makes life interesting. Tragedy to triumph, ignorance to epiphany. That, to me, is the beauty of life.


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## MattB (May 10, 2014)

Yeah, what Ninja said...


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## Ninja Glutton (May 10, 2014)

MattB said:


> Yeah, what Ninja said...



Haha you posted as I was typing that out. I swear I'm not a one-upper!


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## Dromond (May 10, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> Going back to the topic...
> 
> Whether you believe the Bible to be fact or fiction, who is your favorite Bible character and why?



I've always been fascinated by the story of Job. Not just because Job is such an interesting character, but also because the book of Job predates, in authorship, all other books of the Bible. It's not just the story of a man put upon by the test between God and Satan. It's also the story of how one man doesn't break in the face of manifest unfairness and adversity. 

I also like that in his final speech, Job schools everyone for doubting his faith. Job even gets in a few shots at God Himself for the tests he went through. The man had big balls, no question.


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## Donna (May 10, 2014)

Thanks guys...I read the Satanic Bible many, many, many years ago and was going purely on memory. :blush:


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## Ninja Glutton (May 10, 2014)

Donna said:


> Thanks guys...I read the Satanic Bible many, many, many years ago and was going purely on memory. :blush:



I find it really interesting that Oklahoma is allowing what you said. They seem like a much more conservative state than one that would allow this.

I live in Pennsylvania, so I'm used to puritanical laws and governance


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## lille (May 10, 2014)

It's interesting to me how a most of the atheists have said that they often feel on the defensive. Maybe it's because I have spent most of my life in the some of the least religious states and I'm in a field with a low level of religiosity, but Ive always felt like among the people I know (not including family), being an atheist was common and someone who was more than casually religious would have to do a lot more defending of their beliefs.

Religiousity of states based on http://www.pewforum.org/2009/12/21/how-religious-is-your-state/


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## WhiteHotRazor (May 10, 2014)

I listen to a lot of metal with Satanic lyrics and I have a good friend who is big-time into Jesus who is trying to become the real life Ned Flanders. That's about the extent of religion I have in my life and I'm good with that. Anything else would be uncivilized"-Right Guard


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## ODFFA (May 10, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> Going back to the topic...
> 
> Whether you believe the Bible to be fact or fiction, who is your favorite Bible character and why?



Most definitely Jesus. But, playing the 'besides Jesus' game..... It'd have to be Ruth. 

I love the fact that she was tight with her mother-in-law, who suggested she go to the threshing floor to show Boaz (however subtly or unsubtly) where it's at. I love that her story seems so meager and mild (to me, at least) in the context of the other OT stories that envelop it. And she just always struck me as a wonderfully balanced female character - in that 'environment' especially. She's someone that apparently just loves well and is filled with kindness, and at the same time, the girl seems to hold her own; she has a strength and a seductiveness to her. So, yeah. I think she's rather lovely as biblical characters go.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 10, 2014)

Donna said:


> I just read recently that Oklahoma is allowing Satanists to place a statue of Lucifer in the capital building, where it will sit near other religious statues.





Ninja Glutton said:


> I find it really interesting that Oklahoma is allowing what you said. They seem like a much more conservative state than one that would allow this.



"Allowing" may not be the right word. Here's the story, from your reporter on the scene:

The Oklahoma legislature voted to have a stone inscribed with the Ten Commandments set up outside the state capitol building (probably so our legislators -- those who can read -- would know what they're ignoring). A group of Satanists, or people claiming to be Satanists, have petitioned to set up a statue of Satan beside the legislature's idol, citing first-amendment rights. This was a couple of months ago, and there was a short tizzy about it, but I haven't heard anything since. I strongly suspect the Satanists were merely twitting the born-again brethren, and that nothing will come of it. I would be absolutely tickled to see it done, though. :happy:


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## AuntHen (May 10, 2014)

Dromond said:


> I've always been fascinated by the story of Job. Not just because Job is such an interesting character, but also because the book of Job predates, in authorship, all other books of the Bible. It's not just the story of a man put upon by the test between God and Satan. It's also the story of how one man doesn't break in the face of manifest unfairness and adversity.
> 
> I also like that in his final speech, Job schools everyone for doubting his faith. *Job even gets in a few shots at God Himself for the tests he went through. *The man had big balls, no question.




Yes he sure did but I also loved when God answered back to Job. For example in Job chapter 38...

" Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who set its measurements? Since you know." ... and so on.

After that speech, I just imagine hearing *cricket chirps*.


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## lucca23v2 (May 10, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> The Old Testament is still a part of religious, sacred holy text that the entirety of Christianity is founded upon. I don't really think you can just omit entire chapters because they don't fit the "hip, new" King James Bible.
> 
> If you're telling me misogyny is no part of the new testament, then maybe you have not read closely enough:
> 
> ...



The Old Testament was a set rule of law for people who for the most part had no direct connection to God. It had to be down through sacrifice and through priests. After the crucifixion, that changed. The sacrifice was Jesus on the cross. That gave us a connection to God through him. That is a long discussion and too much to get into here. Let me just leave you this verse..

Romans 5:12-21 ~ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 

As for the versus about women. However, as in everything in life there is a hierarchy to things. Remember, Eve is the one that ate the apple first, but Adam is the one that received the physical punishment, why? Because he is the head. That being said, remember that Jesus always had women as part of his ministry. Mary and Martha, Lazarus sisters were part of his ministry. So was Mary Magdalene.

You have: 

Galatians 3:28 ~There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, *there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.* Meaning that in Gods eyes all are equal. Everyone has there role to play.. some stars.. some supporting actors, but God sees them all the same.

Genesis 2:24 ~ Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: *and they shall be one flesh*. Meaning they are equal. 

Not to mention the women in the bible that were leaders such as:

Miriam  prophet; played major role in Exodus; led worship singing and dancing.

Deborah  prophet; judge; led Israeli troops into battle with Barak

Anna  prophet who pronounced Jesus to be the redemption of Israel

Lydia  (the seller of Purple) business woman who became a central leader in the Philippian Church

Priscilla  helped Paul establish churches at Corinth and Ephesus; corrected Apollos preaching

Junias  an Apostle (read Romans 16:1-16, many women in the service of the church as leaders as the apostles)

Phoebe  deacon; commended by Paul for her service to the church

And what about Abigail? She was married to a horrible man who offended the soon to be King David. One of her husbands servants told her what was going on and she gather food and provisions for David and his men and stopped David from killing her husband and the servants...

Just to mention a few women from the bible...in both new and the old testament

So for those who say that God made women to be second class to men.. you are wrong.. God created women to be a mans companion.

full definition of Companion: https://www.google.com/#q=companion

If you see definition 2 you will see that the synonyms for companion is:	complement, counterpart, *twin, match;* accompaniment, supplement, addition, adjunct, accessory


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## Ninja Glutton (May 11, 2014)

But what you've said and quoted only reiterates my point...

Through the eyes of Christianity, women can only be defined in relation to men. It was man's need that necessitated their creation and it is man who makes all the decisions when it comes to what's right and what's best for the woman.

I don't want to go on and on about this, but I think the thousands of years since Jesus (supposedly) walked the earth have proven that Christianity puts women at the bottom of the totem pole.

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but I fully appreciate the insight on the heralded women of the bible. I just don't think it outweighs all of the negative, condescending, abusive treatment of women throughout the other pages of the books.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> But what you've said and quoted only reiterates my point...
> 
> Through the eyes of Christianity, women can only be defined in relation to men. It was man's need that necessitated their creation and it is man who makes all the decisions when it comes to what's right and what's best for the woman.
> 
> ...



Christianity does not put women below men but next to, equal to. For the record, if you read Genesis 1: 26 - 27 in any version, you will see that women were always part of creation, always meant to be created. Sometimes things are not provided until we ask for them.

And yes, we can agree to disagree on this point. That you for the discussion. I have enjoyed it.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> Christianity does not put women below men but next to, equal to. For the record, if you read Genesis 1: 26 - 27 in any version, you will see that women were always part of creation, always meant to be created. Sometimes things are not provided until we ask for them.
> 
> And yes, we can agree to disagree on this point. That you for the discussion. I have enjoyed it.




Regardless of what the bible may or may not say "Christians" have a long and continuing track record of subjugating women. Personally I don't care what may or may not be written in ancient books. What matters to me are actions. Not a day goes by without self-righteous "Christians" (and other religious types as well) trying to turn clocks back to the dark ages.


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## LeoGibson (May 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Regardless of what the bible may or may not say *"Christians"* have a long and continuing track record of subjugating women. Personally I don't care what may or may not be written in ancient books. What matters to me are actions. Not a day goes by without self-righteous* "Christians"* (and other religious types as well) trying to turn clocks back to the dark ages.



Do you need a special apparatus to hoist that broad brush you use or can you still hold it up under your own power with both hands? 

This exchange is indicative of my own personal exchanges throughout the years with atheists, especially those more militant in nature. I would consider their viewpoint much more if they spread their distaste around a bit more. All their wrath and ire are usually directed at Christians. If they even mention anyone else it is as an afterthought or a footnote as you did here bigmac. I have never had an atheist rail on to me about the abuses of Islam, or the esoteric beliefs of Wiccans or Pagans, the subjugation of women and the poor in Hinduism, or really even too much vitriol against Judaism, or any other belief system. If you're an atheist then you would naturally find folly in all religions or beliefs, so why not go off on any others?

My point is that if atheists were more fair about their targets of outrage, I would take them more seriously as debate worthy. As long as all they can do is point out the bad parts of Christianity and just give a throwaway nod to other religions, then to be honest, I can't be bothered with them.

On a side note, this post isn't directed only to you bigmac, your post just brought up an issue I have had with a few atheists over the years and you pretty much did the same by default so I used your post to springboard my thoughts off of.


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## AuntHen (May 11, 2014)

bigmac, have you watched the news lately?

Are you following what is going on in Africa... Afghanistan?

Even very developed countries that have little Christian affiliation, such as Japan for instance, still deem men as the priority.

And the Bible does teach to *cherish *women... It tells men "love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave his life for her" (that's a pretty big accomplishment for men to strive for if you ask me) and in Proverbs 31, the woman type being spoken of is obviously a business woman. Purchasing fields and planting vineyards. In charge and control of her household, finances, etc.

And the role of women (everyone) truly in the Bible, is about being in subjection to God, to Christ... not men.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Regardless of what the bible may or may not say "Christians" have a long and continuing track record of subjugating women. Personally I don't care what may or may not be written in ancient books. What matters to me are actions. Not a day goes by without self-righteous "Christians" (and other religious types as well) trying to turn clocks back to the dark ages.



lol.. Using your broad brush.... I know plenty of Christians whose wives are the ones that control everything. So much for men controlling and treating their wives as second class. To think of it, I don't know any Christian marriages where the men control everything. Most of the ones I know and have witnessed, by spending time with them, the men ask their wives for their opinions and advice before they make a decision. How can that be seen as the ,an seeing his wife as a second class person? You don't ask people for their opinion if you feel they are below you.

Ephesians 5:33 ESV 

However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Ephesians 5:28 ESV 

In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

There are plenty more..these are just the ones that plainly state it.. there are others that are a bit more intricate and more detailed as to this topic.. but i kept it light.


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## ODFFA (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> Do you need a special apparatus to hoist that broad brush you use or can you still hold it up under your own power with both hands?



^ Liking the wit!



> ....My point is that if atheists were more fair about their targets of outrage, I would take them more seriously as debate worthy. As long as all they can do is point out the bad parts of Christianity and just give a throwaway nod to other religions, then to be honest, I can't be bothered with them....



I think there is a good deal of validity in this observation of yours. Annnnnd....at the same time, I feel there are perhaps a few good reasons for this atheist trend.

A few of them might be:


Christianity is a very prevalent religion in America and a good few other westernised countries, certainly including my own.
Christians give it even more prominence due to its evangelical nature. Proselytising is a big component and for some a glaring irritant.
With that comes the imposing of morals on all people with just as wide a brush stroke.
And there's the loudness with which many Christians object to certain practices, with specious reasoning behind it. This tends to make Christians a soft target for retaliation.

Now, I know that not all Christians do the things I mentioned by any means, and that many people of various other religions do some of these too. But I think it might be fair to say that it happens enough within Christianity that it's hard to ignore as the go-to religion for examples and complaints.

That's my best guess. What say other peoples?


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> bigmac, have you watched the news lately?
> 
> Are you following what is going on in Africa... Afghanistan?
> 
> ...



Yes I do follow the news. Everyday there are numerous stories that relate in one way or another to the damage inflicted by religion. As I've noted before Christians do not have a monopoly on damaging dogma. I certainly don't wish trade American evangelicals for the Taliban. Luckily those are not the only options.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> Now, I know that not all Christians do the things I mentioned by any means, and that many people of various other religions do some of these too. But I think it might be fair to say that it happens enough within Christianity that it's hard to ignore as the go-to religion for examples and complaints.
> 
> That's my best guess. What say other peoples?



Yes, there are many that do and say things that are not right and claim to be christians.. however this is not new..

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ESV

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, &#8216;How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So even those who proclaim to be christians and use it to hurt others are not true Christians.

But to your point, i can see why people go after Christians, since those loud and crazy christians are the ones that are the loudest. But as with anything in life, the ones that are the loudest are not always the best representation of the whole of any group.

I think discussions like these is what is needed for people to understand each others point of view.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> ... I have never had an atheist rail on to me about the abuses of Islam, or the esoteric beliefs of Wiccans or Pagans, the subjugation of women and the poor in Hinduism, or really even too much vitriol against Judaism, or any other belief system. If you're an atheist then you would naturally find folly in all religions or beliefs, so why not go off on any others?
> 
> ...



I've posted over and over that "Christians" have no monopoly regarding destructive dogma. I find any philosophical system that relies upon blind faith rather than reason objectionable. 

I could easily make long lists of very objectionable actions committed in the name of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

That said I've never had a Wiccan wake me up on a weekend morning with supposed _good new_s.


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## LeoGibson (May 11, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> I think there is a good deal of validity in this observation of yours. Annnnnd....at the same time, I feel there are perhaps a few good reasons for this atheist trend.
> 
> A few of them might be:
> 
> ...



Those are good observations and you're absolutely correct I think. Also on a public scale let's not forget the fact that Christians won't behead you for making fun of God or their religion. Also, while they may knock on some doors or hand out some rather misguided pamphlets from time to time, they don't believe in spreading their belief "by the sword" if necessary. So, that does make them an easy target.

As I said, I understand why many people who are not Christians, do not like the belief. I get it, but I refuse to give any credence to their argument when it is Christians being called out and rarely any other group by name. Only as a footnote, as when people say, "other religions are wrong as well." Ok, what other religions? Say them by name. Call them out for their beliefs as being silly or antiquated. Make fun of them and their beliefs on tv and radio.

To me, it is like the rabid PETA activists that will stand outside a very upscale neighborhood and douse rich socialites with red paint for wearing fur. I get why they do it, but if you want to impress me with the courage of your conviction, do that same stunt to a group of Hells Angels when they are clad in their leather riding gear, or to a big name gangsta rapper that's in full fur regalia when surrounded by their entourage. Then I'll take you seriously because you're not just sticking to "safe" targets.

I definitely like the way Judaism looks at proselytizing, they do the opposite. They try and convince you, "oh no, this is not for you. Are you sure you want to become a Jew? You wouldn't like it." 

I know it's not really like that, but that's the old joke anyway.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> I've posted over and over that "Christians" have no monopoly regarding destructive dogma. I find any philosophical system that relies upon blind faith rather than reason objectionable.
> 
> I could easily make long lists of very objectionable actions committed in the name of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.
> 
> That said I've never had a Wiccan wake me up on a weekend morning with supposed _good new_s.



Human reasoning is flawed, we reason up to the point where it suits us and what we want to do. Not always for the betterment of everyone.

lol.. no many wiccans sell their "religion" through TV.. witches of eastwich, charmed, buffy the vampire slayer,bewitched, and that is just TV, let's not even talk about films..

Not putting it down because I loved/love all of those shows and watching them. I also watch all of the witchcraft movies. I love them. 

What I am saying is that everyone sells/promotes their religion. Some have crazies (and granted there are more crazies in the christian faith than in others) but in the end we all have one thing in common, the betterment of ourselves.

IJS...


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## LeoGibson (May 11, 2014)

I want to take a quick second here to thank everyone who is participating in this thread for doing so in an adult manner. This could have so easily gone down a bad road and everyone has been able to discuss and even debate a little and disagree without becoming disagreeable. I have enjoyed participating in it and reading everyone else's participation.

To sum it up for me, it is fine to question someone on why they believe anything. If one cannot explain their belief without resorting to name-calling or going off on a tirade, then perhaps they do indeed need to question what their beliefs actually are.

Thanks, to my fellow believers in Christ, the Pagans, the Atheists, and anyone else that I am missing for keeping this thread civilized and enjoyable. You all rock!


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> I want to take a quick second here to thank everyone who is participating in this thread for doing so in an adult manner. This could have so easily gone down a bad road and everyone has been able to discuss and even debate a little and disagree without becoming disagreeable. I have enjoyed participating in it and reading everyone else's participation.
> 
> To sum it up for me, it is fine to question someone on why they believe anything. If one cannot explain their belief without resorting to name-calling or going off on a tirade, then perhaps they do indeed need to question what their beliefs actually are.
> 
> Thanks, to my fellow believers in Christ, the Pagans, the Atheists, and anyone else that I am missing for keeping this thread civilized and enjoyable. You all rock!



This has been the best!!!!!!!


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 11, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> I think there is a good deal of validity in this observation of yours. Annnnnd....at the same time, I feel there are perhaps a few good reasons for this atheist trend.
> 
> A few of them might be:
> 
> ...



I think this very prevalence may have deeper consequences that encourage some people who take their spirituality seriously to look for other paths. When a religion is virtually unchallenged by the numerical superiority of tis worshippers, many people come to participate in its religious services because:

(1) they are part of a comfortable routine or a nostalgic reminder of childhood

(2) it is considered the respectable thing to do

(3) they enjoy the ritual

There is nothing wrong with this, but for those who are wrestling with the application of their religion's teachings to daily life, these motivations may seem trivial. Also, the tendency of many religions to focus on the hereafter may make them appear irrelevant to those who are working out responses to the challenges of this world. Having been both a Christian and a Buddhist during my life, I've seen these tendencies in both religions and found them off-putting at times. The very fact that a religion is prevalent in an area may cause it to focus more on the details of myth and ritual than on the underlying message.


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## agouderia (May 11, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Through the eyes of Christianity, women can only be defined in relation to men.



This.

And it applies not only to Christianity, but also to Judaism and Islam. No matter how far they have been modernized or writings and practices re-interpreted, the submission of women is an obvious underlying denominator in all monotheistic religions.

Next to a very secular family background, this actually is one of the aspects that kept me from ever developing a real connection to religious faith.

Could I as a woman believe in something where all interpretations told me I'm a second class human being, defined only in dependency to men? 
My personal answer to that is no.


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## Donna (May 11, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> Human reasoning is flawed, we reason up to the point where it suits us and what we want to do. Not always for the betterment of everyone.
> 
> lol.. no many wiccans sell their "religion" through TV.. witches of eastwich, charmed, buffy the vampire slayer,bewitched, and that is just TV, let's not even talk about films..
> 
> ...



No. Sorry, but this is incorrect. Pagans in my experience do not prosthelytize or sell their religion. They have been misrepresented in the media for so long most only want to be left alone to practice their beliefs in peace. The witchcraft you see on TV and in the movies is light years away from real witchcraft and Paganism. They cannot just wiggle their noses or snap their fingers and make things happen. 

I wish I could....


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

Donna said:


> No. Sorry, but this is incorrect. Pagans in my experience do not prosthelytize or sell their religion. They have been misrepresented in the media for so long most only want to be left alone to practice their beliefs in peace. The witchcraft you see on TV and in the movies is light years away from real witchcraft and Paganism. They cannot just wiggle their noses or snap their fingers and make things happen.
> 
> I wish I could....



I didn't say that it is true witchcraft.. but it is a form of selling, before witchcraft was looked at negatively, that view is being changed because of all of the tv shows and films. People are now more accepting of it. So in a way it is selling it, just not in the typical way of selling it. Making people more aware of it and making it less taboo.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> Those are good observations and you're absolutely correct I think. Also on a public scale let's not forget the fact that *Christians won't behead you for making fun of God or their religion. *
> 
> ...



At least not recently. But Christianity has quite a few skeletons in the closet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition


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## Donna (May 11, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> I didn't say that it is true witchcraft.. but it is a form of selling, before witchcraft was looked at negatively, that view is being changed because of all of the tv shows and films. People are now more accepting of it. So in a way it is selling it, just not in the typical way of selling it. Making people more aware of it and making it less taboo.



Again, no. Those TV shows and movies are selling for sure, but what they are selling is a very false idea. A lot of serious scholars in the world of Neo-Paganism consider them to be a mockery and an insult of everything they stand for and believe. Bewitched and The Craft don't make people accept witchcraft as a religion, anymore than Mike & Molly makes people accept fat people as normal.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

Donna said:


> Again, no. Those TV shows and movies are selling for sure, but what they are selling is a very false idea. A lot of serious scholars in the world of Neo-Paganism consider them to be a mockery and an insult of everything they stand for and believe. Bewitched and The Craft don't make people accept witchcraft as a religion, anymore than Mike & Molly makes people accept fat people as normal.



I guess I am not explaining myself correctly. I understand that tv and films don't portray them correctly. TV and films rarely portray things as they really are, including christians, but you have to admit, because of movies like the craft and harry potter, etc, that people are looking more into witch craft as a religion. It might not be showing the right stuff, but it is getting people to look into it as a religion, so it is a sell.. a soft sell, but s sell none-the-less.

But we can agree to disagree. But I do think a lot of it is interesting.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> Human reasoning is flawed, we reason up to the point where it suits us and what we want to do. Not always for the betterment of everyone.
> 
> ...




Human reasoning is indeed flawed. All the more reason not to base public policy on books written by bronze age men.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Human reasoning is indeed flawed. All the more reason not to base public policy on books written by bronze age men.



lol..it is public policy.. the term alone indicates that it needs to change as the public changes.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 11, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> I feel there are perhaps a few good reasons for this atheist trend.
> 
> A few of them might be:
> 
> ...



I agree with the points you've made about why Christianity is attacked more often than other religions. It's the nature of the religion itself, though. People think they are saving everyone that they push their beliefs on. It is their honest feelings that god's love extends to everyone and that is why they're so pushy about it.

I remember being in college and having people hand me free bibles. The guy wouldn't take no for an answer. It irritated me to absolute fury and I said "I don't want it!" forcefully. He thrust it into my hand. I proceeded to walk to the nearest trash can and throw it out in front of him. If you're constantly forcing your ideology on people, that is how they will eventually react.

Now, I don't want to have myself grouped in with atheists who only attack Christians, however. They are a popular, powerful religion where I've grown up and I resent their effect on public policy to a great degree, so I'm not saying I'm the most tolerant of Christians, but I want to clarify that the subjugation of women applies even moreso to Islam and many of the world's religions than it does to Christianity. I don't want to seem like I'm on a crusade against Christians. That is not my goal whatsoever.

Honestly, I personally feel like the idea of a creator being is incongruent with my life experience and what I've seen. I think all of it is hogwash, and that's my opinion. 

Like I said in an earlier post, though, I'm not an absolutist in any form. I believe in modal realities, so I don't claim "100% there is no god!" I can't say that. Who's to say what exists on the wavelengths, planes, and dimensions that humankind cannot perceive? I don't pretend to have the slightest clue.

I just think that, should some extra-dimensional being exist, it would be so beyond our human comprehension that "love thy neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill" would be no parts of its otherworldly morality. It would have such a big-picture view of the connection of all life and energy in existence that petty black and white "right or wrong, heaven and hell" arguments would be less than a blink of its eye.

I'm a scholar of every philosophy because I love learning what the human mind can come up with.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> Those are good observations and you're absolutely correct I think. Also on a public scale let's not forget the fact that Christians won't behead you for making fun of God or their religion. Also, while they may knock on some doors or hand out some rather misguided pamphlets from time to time, *they don't believe in spreading their belief "by the sword" if necessary.* So, that does make them an easy target.



Sorry, but this is so historically inaccurate. Christians were the largest theistic religion to induce worship through violence.

Think of all of Africa and Mexico, as some small examples of the effects of colonialism, and how they eventually adopted the religion of their captors. Christianity was spread more through force and violence than any other religion.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Sorry, but this is so historically inaccurate. Christians were the largest theistic religion to induce worship through violence.
> 
> Think of all of Africa and Mexico, as some small examples of the effects of colonialism, and how they eventually adopted the religion of their captors. Christianity was spread more through force and violence than any other religion.



Well, that was the Catholics, a certain "sect" of the religion. Just as al-queda is only a "sect" of Islam.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> Well, that was the Catholics, a certain "sect" of the religion. Just as al-queda is only a "sect" of Islam.



Protestant sects haven't been shy about using force against people they characterized as heathens or heretics either.


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## lucca23v2 (May 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Protestant sects haven't been shy about using force against people they characterized as heathens or heretics either.



The violence in Ireland? The catholics and protestants are fighting each other. Each is giving as good as they get. I don't know who started it, so I will have to stay out of that one.


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## LeoGibson (May 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> At least not recently. But Christianity has quite a few skeletons in the closet.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
> 
> ...





Ninja Glutton said:


> Sorry, but this is so historically inaccurate. Christians were the largest theistic religion to induce worship through violence.
> 
> Think of all of Africa and Mexico, as some small examples of the effects of colonialism, and how they eventually adopted the religion of their captors. Christianity was spread more through force and violence than any other religion.



You are both correct albeit with instances from centuries past. What I speak of is modern day. When atheists publicly start poking the more unsafe targets I will take them more seriously.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> The violence in Ireland? The catholics and protestants are fighting each other. Each is giving as good as they get. I don't know who started it, so I will have to stay out of that one.



Doesn't matter who started it -- religion fueled it.


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## bigmac (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> You are both correct albeit with instances from centuries past. What I speak of is modern day. When atheists publicly start poking the more unsafe targets I will take them more seriously.




The troubles of Northern Ireland are not in the past. Christian persecution of homosexuals (particularly in Africa) are not in the past. 

I didn't bring up this issue. I'm not personally concerned about any modern day inquisition. I'm more concerned about religious fundamentalist dumbing down science education, destroying sex education, limiting access to birth control, limiting access to healthcare, preventing marriages between loving and consenting adults, blocking responses to climate change ... the list just goes on and on.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 11, 2014)

LeoGibson said:


> You are both correct albeit with instances from centuries past. What I speak of is modern day. When atheists publicly start poking the more unsafe targets I will take them more seriously.



If I'm not mistaken, the great Richard Dawkins himself publicly denounced Islam on Al Jazeera. I think that's a pretty public prodding of unsafe targets.

In order to be taken seriously, atheists must openly admonish extremists and militant terrorist organizations?

That seems like an awful tall order just to defend logic and empirical reasoning.


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## Dromond (May 12, 2014)

This discussion is getting a little too Hyde Park for my tastes. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged, debate makes you examine why you believe what you believe. However, this ping-pong match between Christians and atheists is outside the spirit of the thread. I've heard it all way too many times, and I was hoping this thread would be a place everyone could talk about their faith, or lack of it, without judgement. Unfortunately I see a lot of judging going on.


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## Jah (May 12, 2014)

Dromond said:


> This discussion is getting a little too Hyde Park for my tastes. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged, debate makes you examine why you believe what you believe. However, this ping-pong match between Christians and atheists is outside the spirit of the thread. I've heard it all way too many times, and I was hoping this thread would be a place everyone could talk about their faith, or lack of it, without judgement. Unfortunately I see a lot of judging going on.



I agree with this!


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## AuntHen (May 12, 2014)

^agree also.

I love to listen to Tibetan healing bowls/sounds. I find them so relaxing and aiding in the relief of stress. They can put me to sleep in a snap. Does anyone else use them or something similar for a mind/body "cleanse"?

I would also love to explore Tai chi more...


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## ScreamingChicken (May 12, 2014)

Agree x 4.

One can almost feel this thread sliding off the rails, which is a damn shame.


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## AuntHen (May 12, 2014)

I feel these are wise words and what's a true thread without a pic attachment


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## Ninja Glutton (May 12, 2014)

Okay, here's a topical question:

Do any of you believe in past life regression?

Have you ever felt like parts of yourself are just innate personality traits that may have been left behind by ancestors?

Do you think there's any validity to mediums or psychics?


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## Dromond (May 12, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Okay, here's a topical question:
> 
> Do any of you believe in past life regression?
> 
> ...



No to all of it. I do believe there is a spiritual realm (I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't), but I don't believe any of the pop culture associated with it. You only live once, and any contact you may have with whatever there is beyond what science can detect or explain is exclusively personal.


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## Dromond (May 12, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> ^agree also.
> 
> I love to listen to Tibetan healing bowls/sounds. I find them so relaxing and aiding in the relief of stress. They can put me to sleep in a snap. Does anyone else use them or something similar for a mind/body "cleanse"?
> 
> I would also love to explore Tai chi more...



The scent of vanilla calms my mind and improves my mood. I have no clue why that is, I just know it works.


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## Dromond (May 12, 2014)

Forgive the triple post, but I have a question. Have any of you had what you felt was direct contact with someone/something of a spiritual/not of this world nature?


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## ODFFA (May 12, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Okay, here's a topical question:
> 
> Do any of you believe in past life regression?
> 
> ...



1. I do. As in, I thiiiink it's possible. Whether it's always accurate, ehhhhh..... And at this stage I don't have the feeling that I'd benefit too much personally from giving it a go. Maybe someday.

2. Very much so. Not to the extent that they are unalterable, but still.

3. I think there _can_ be, but it is my personal belief that being one's own medium/psychic is the preferable go-to option. Going to someone else would be more about upliftment or confirmation to me. And I would never advocate complete, unfiltered acceptance of what any such practitioner has to say. Take what you feel you can use, what seems relevant, and forget anything that doesn't sit well. Same as #1 - never been, don't see the need at present.



Dromond said:


> Forgive the triple post, but I have a question. Have any of you had what you felt was direct contact with someone/something of a spiritual/not of this world nature?



Nope, no direct contact. Have had some amazingly accurate dreams, premonitions and intuitive feelings about people/situations. But I think that's a common human experience among spiritualists, physicalists and anyone in between. And I think it's a skill that can be developed.


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## lucca23v2 (May 12, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Doesn't matter who started it -- religion fueled it.



lol... seriously? it is inter-religion fighting..it is not going to effect anyone else... much like the civil war here..
Our civil war didn't really effect any other countries.

Don't get me wrong, they shouldn't be fighting, but lets face t.. human nature is to fight things out instead of talking them out.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 12, 2014)

Dromond said:


> No to all of it. I do believe there is a spiritual realm (I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't), but I don't believe any of the pop culture associated with it. You only live once, and any contact you may have with whatever there is beyond what science can detect or explain is exclusively personal.



This is interesting, coming from a Christian. Where do you believe the mind and soul separation lies then?

Is it only upon death that the soul separates from the body and ascends to heaven?


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## Ninja Glutton (May 12, 2014)

Dromond said:


> Forgive the triple post, but I have a question. Have any of you had what you felt was direct contact with someone/something of a spiritual/not of this world nature?



As much as I'd hate to admit it, I had an extremely visceral contact with a friend of mine who died shortly after high school in a dream. It goes against everything I feel about the world around me to admit, but it felt like it was the only "real" supernatural experience I've ever had. He had aged, had longer hair, and seemed completely genuine in the dream and kept telling me not to worry that everything would work out in life. That's the closest I have to spiritual contact.


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## lucca23v2 (May 12, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Is it only upon death that the soul separates from the body and ascends to heaven?



For me this is a yes. At exactly that point.


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## lucca23v2 (May 12, 2014)

totally unrelated to this thread.. Ninja.. Raphael? really? out of the 4 you picked the cockiest one of the group? I wonder, is that the one you relate to most?

lol


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## Ninja Glutton (May 12, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> 1. I do. As in, I thiiiink it's possible. Whether it's always accurate, ehhhhh..... And at this stage I don't have the feeling that I'd benefit too much personally from giving it a go. Maybe someday.
> 
> 2. Very much so. Not to the extent that they are unalterable, but still.
> 
> 3. I think there _can_ be, but it is my personal belief that being one's own medium/psychic is the preferable go-to option. Going to someone else would be more about upliftment or confirmation to me. And I would never advocate complete, unfiltered acceptance of what any such practitioner has to say. Take what you feel you can use, what seems relevant, and forget anything that doesn't sit well. Same as #1 - never been, don't see the need at present.



Sorry for the triple post myself, but I forgot to respond to everything in my first two.

I think past life regression and the inheritance of personality traits to be potentially very real, scientifically speaking. I've read up a bunch on the idea of "engrams" and I've found it extremely interesting. Basically, memories contained within cells. 

A friend of mine's mother had a heart transplant and often found herself feeling that it wasn't her heart and she could SENSE that it wasn't. A pop culture example would be Liquid Snake's arm taking over Ocelot in the Metal Gear Solid series. I think the way that DNA controls so much of our will and desire, it's certainly conceivable for some of it to contain traces of the cells we were born from. 23 pairs of chromosomes full of them. While there hasn't been solid scientific proof, I like to think that someday there will be validity to the claim.

As far as psychics and mediums, I have many friends and family members who swear by them and attest that there's no way a person could know as much as they have known. My dad has gone to angel seances and spoken to psychics many times. I am very dismissive of it, but I would love if it were possible. 

Harry Houdini is who made me a skeptic, after telling his wife a secret code word that would confirm it was he she was talking to through a medium. Throughout the years, not a single person could come up with the phrase.

Also, there's the whole problem of cold reading and self-fulfilling prophecy. Our minds tend to want to believe and may pick out words and phrases and desperately connect them to real life things in order to validate the psychic's claims. Telling us we're going to have a bad day/week/year could influence us to make our day/week/year bad. There's just no great way to prove the accuracy.

Again, these are concepts I would love to believe and I find interesting from an inquisitive standpoint, but I cannot say I trust any of them.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 12, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> totally unrelated to this thread.. Ninja.. Raphael? really? out of the 4 you picked the cockiest one of the group? I wonder, is that the one you relate to most?
> 
> lol



I love the color red, I thrive on passion-related emotions like anger/lust/vindictiveness, I think Leonardo is a douchebag, and I'm pretty arrogant and impulsive. Yes, I'd say I love Raphael from a self-referential standpoint.


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## lucca23v2 (May 12, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> I love the color red, I thrive on passion-related emotions like anger/lust/vindictiveness, I think Leonardo is a douchebag, and I'm pretty arrogant and impulsive. Yes, I'd say I love Raphael from a self-referential standpoint.



LOL.....just a warning though.. thriving on those passion related emotions will make your life a crazy rollercoaster ride.


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## MattB (May 12, 2014)

_"Do you think there's any validity to mediums or psychics?"_

I actually do believe in the potential for psychic ability, and I think most people are capable of it on some level, but there has to be some sort of science behind it. I generally approach people who are open about being 'psychic' with an extremely skeptic eye, particularly those who treat it as a vocation. In my personal experience with psychics, most (not all) of them seem to feel a need to always be "on". As in- always having to say _something_. Even comedians aren't funny all the time. I've had some downright interesting conversations with 'psychics', not all went well, but a few were honestly fascinating. I maintain an open, inquisitive mind.

Tying into the topic somewhat...I've had paranormal experiences that were very 'personalized' that really jolted me, particularly one event a few years back which pretty much drove me into semi-'retirement' from that sort of thing, (Edit- not from fear. It was just an extraordinary experience, and even though I don't and never will have all the answers to life and death, it was enough to satisfy my curiosity for awhile...) and it also drove me further into atheism. If I may try to explain why...I think, IMO, there may be some sort of 'afterlife', but I can't accept a traditional God or a devil, or heaven or hell, as most religions claim. At all. There may be some sort of physics involved after you die involving conscience, or whatever, but I'm convinced that this life is the one you have to live to your fullest and to the best of your abilities. I'm not denying myself anything in this life for fear of any punishment, or promise of reward, after death. 

One of my pet peeves is the expression "you can't take it with you". Generally used to guilt and show the frivolity of buying something desirable or extravagant. Nuts to that! All the more reason to enjoy yourself now. YMMV.


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## bigmac (May 12, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> lol... seriously? it is inter-religion fighting..it is not going to effect anyone else... much like the civil war here..
> Our civil war didn't really effect any other countries.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, they shouldn't be fighting, but lets face t.. *human nature is to fight things out instead of talking them out*.



To a certain extent yes. However, religion magnifies the human predilection toward violence.

Ireland is fast becoming a much more secular country. The intensity of sectarian fighting has abated in lockstep. A good example of how abandoning religion improves society.


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## bigmac (May 12, 2014)

Dromond said:


> This discussion is getting a little too Hyde Park for my tastes. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged, debate makes you examine why you believe what you believe. However, this ping-pong match between Christians and atheists is outside the spirit of the thread. I've heard it all way too many times, and I was hoping this thread would be a place everyone could talk about their faith, or lack of it, without judgement. Unfortunately I see a lot of judging going on.




Not much to talk about if you're an atheist. "Faith" is a concept that just does not compute.

However, as a person who cares about the greater good, I'm forced to think about how religion impacts society. I don't care about religious doctrine or philosophy beyond any social or political impact. Of course this gives me a rather biased focus. Religious folks who keep to themselves are totally off my radar. I'm only concerned about people who seek to impose their religious will upon others or who seek to desecularize the public sphere. Since I live in America this brings me into conflict with the "Christian" right (if I lived in Afghanistan I'd be in conflict with the Taliban).


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## Dromond (May 12, 2014)

bigmac said:


> To a certain extent yes. However, religion magnifies the human predilection toward violence.
> 
> Ireland is fast becoming a much more secular country. The intensity of sectarian fighting has abated in lockstep. A good example of how abandoning religion improves society.



You mean tribalism.


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## AuntHen (May 12, 2014)

If your reason for joining in, is to *bait *others solely for a good debate on Atheism vs. Christianity or Why I Despise Religion, it's best to go and make another thread in Hyde Park. The OP made it clear *that *was not wanted. You can be an atheist and still want to explore and understand people and ideas. You can be an atheist and say "I don't agree with you" but ask probing questions in a way that at least shows you care about and respect another's point of view. Most of the people contributing here, do that on this board in general, which was the reason it was started here.


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## lucca23v2 (May 12, 2014)

Dromond said:


> This discussion is getting a little too Hyde Park for my tastes. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged, debate makes you examine why you believe what you believe. However, this ping-pong match between Christians and atheists is outside the spirit of the thread. I've heard it all way too many times, and I was hoping this thread would be a place everyone could talk about their faith, or lack of it, without judgement. Unfortunately I see a lot of judging going on.



I don't feel like i have been playing a ping pong. I feel like i have been answering or clearing up misinformation, however, if i have been contributing the the "ping-pong" I apologize. It is not my intent.


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## bigmac (May 12, 2014)

Dromond said:


> You mean tribalism.



Religion and tribalism most often go hand in hand. Also, its interesting how often distinguishing oneself from others who profess the same faith is required.


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## Goreki (May 13, 2014)

My view on religion is like any other tool that we use, our intellect, our gender, a hammer, whatever. It can be used to build a ladder, or it can be used to bash people's skulls in.

What I don't like is when we tell everyone we're building the best ladder ever, and the way we are building it is THE ONLY WAY TO BUILD A LADDER, OH MY HAMMER, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?!?!?

Also when people go on about how good thy are for building it.

Or when they SAY they are building a ladder, but are actually sneakily bopping other people on the head.

But those points can apply to any tool, like I said.


I'm pagan. I don't refine it any further than that. Wicca is too young a religion for me, and the portrayal of it in the media is ridiculous. Some of the STUPIDEST books I've ever read were about Wicca.
One author said - and I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote "If Jesus were alive today, with his tolerance and love of nature, he'd be a witch!!"
I've seldom been so disgusted.

I don't practice as much as I feel I should. For me, spells are prayers with props, and if you do it correctly; which is mostly mental, you become a conduit to the divine.

I'm not sure what the divine is.
I usually go with two deities, male and female, but kind of accept them as expressions of the universe.

I read somewhere that we are the universe experiencing itself; we can see stars from billions of years ago, we came from stars, and are the whim of a few trillion cells to be us for a while. The idea of going back to the universe is strangely comforting.

And my favourite biblical character is Lillith


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## Ninja Glutton (May 13, 2014)

None of my replies were meant to bait anyone in whatsoever, for the record. I'm trying to be an active contributor and I've loved hearing everyone's answers to any question I've asked.

I really hope I'm not coming off like I'm trying to goad people into arguments.

The questions I've asked I'm genuinely curious about and I like hearing what people think.

Do people really think I've been subtly trolling the whole time? I really haven't been.


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## lille (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Okay, here's a topical question:
> 
> Do any of you believe in past life regression?
> 
> ...


I don't know much about past life regression or any of that. I do know that we inherit a lot more than just physical traits. There are little things like sleeping with my eyes open and a tendency to walk on my toes that runs in my family, I have uncles and cousins that do both, but there have also been other things that on't make as much sense genetically. I apparently do certain things the same way my mother's mother, whom I never met, did, like eat my oatmeal raw with milk and sugar.

Also, not exactly on the same line, but similar, I experience deja vu fairly often, though it used to happen much more often when I was younger. And it would be things like whole conversations. My friend and I once, in unison, shuttered and said "whoa, deja vu". I have also had the experience of knowing that something would happen, without major details, years before it happened. When I was in high school I had this innate knowledge that at some point in my life I was going to be raped or abused. There was absolutely no reason for me to think that, and I can't explain it other than it was just something I knew.

As more mediums and psychics, I had a friend who was quite gifted with Tarot card readings and I recently had a stone reading done and it was pretty accurate. I don't believe in psychics the way they are typically portrayed, but I do think that maybe some people are more sensitive to the energy of the people around them.


Dromond said:


> Forgive the triple post, but I have a question. Have any of you had what you felt was direct contact with someone/something of a spiritual/not of this world nature?


I have had a few experiences, some of which may be otherwise explainable and just were odd coincidence, but the one I can't explain is that I was in middle school and I had just said goodnight to my parents. I was walking up the stairs to my room when I saw a woman in colonial clothing in the hall at the top of the stares, she stood there for a second and then faded through the wall. The next day that spot on the floor was cold. It doesn't make much sense because while my hometown was the state capitol during the revolutionary war and there are lots of historic buildings, the house I lived in was only a few years old.


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## ODFFA (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> None of my replies were meant to bait anyone in whatsoever, for the record. I'm trying to be an active contributor and I've loved hearing everyone's answers to any question I've asked.
> 
> I really hope I'm not coming off like I'm trying to goad people into arguments.
> 
> ...



I haven't gotten the trolling vibe from you whatsoever. Not only that, I'm pretty damn chuffed that you've been contributing so much, even though it may understandably feel like a bit of a counter-intuitive thing to do for an atheist in a thread like this. Been loving it!

I agree there has been a little bit of ping ponging. While you have been wonderfully open about some of your opinions on things, personally, I don't really think you've been a culprit. Since you asked. :happy:


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## lille (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> None of my replies were meant to bait anyone in whatsoever, for the record. I'm trying to be an active contributor and I've loved hearing everyone's answers to any question I've asked.
> 
> I really hope I'm not coming off like I'm trying to goad people into arguments.
> 
> ...



I don't think that comment was directed at you at all. I believe you are an example of how someone may not necessarily believe but can ask about things in a curious way rather than a judgmental way.


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## lille (May 13, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> ^agree also.
> 
> I love to listen to Tibetan healing bowls/sounds. I find them so relaxing and aiding in the relief of stress. They can put me to sleep in a snap. Does anyone else use them or something similar for a mind/body "cleanse"?
> 
> I would also love to explore Tai chi more...



I forgot to respond to this earlier. My only experience is having a recording of them play while I was in class, we did some meditation and then continued listening while we were doing our art work. I think they're interesting but for me they're not super relaxing, or at least this recurring wasn't, because they weren't being played at regular intervals. Someone mentioned vanilla as a calming scent for me it's lavender. The scent is relaxing and lavender tea puts me right to sleep.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 13, 2014)

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm just internalizing comments because I'm a defensive atheist 

I kid, I kid.

I've enjoyed the discussion thus far and it's been a welcome change from post your favorite/picture/whatever threads. Not that I don't enjoy those (especially lovely pictures of all you beautiful ladies), but some intellectual discourse makes me want to flex my fingers haha.

Here's a question I recently thought of:

Were you born into your current religion or did you choose it on your own?

Do you think you would have ended up in the same niche had it not been for your parents?

I'm always curious how people come to these decisions over the course of their lives. I'd especially love to hear from Pagans/Wiccans/etc. because I feel like a lot of you weren't raised that way, but if you were, that's even more interesting.


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## ScreamingChicken (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Were you born into your current religion or did you choose it on your own?


I was born Catholic and identify myself as a recovering Catholic/nondenominational/Jediesque mutt of sorts, so the latter applies.




Ninja Glutton said:


> Do you think you would have ended up in the same niche had it not been for your parents?


 Dad wanted a houseful of Catholics but I noticed he stopped going to Mass on a regular basis within a year or two of me not going. I am not sure as to why either; I never asked.

Mom never went to Sunday Mass. She appeared strictly at Christmas and Easter. As she got more in to her late 40's, she began identifying herself as Pagan and later became ordained with the Universal Life Church. Since my mom has always told her kids to go their own path, I would say that my mother encouraged me on my path, whatever that path may be.


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## AuntHen (May 13, 2014)

ODFFA said:


> I haven't gotten the trolling vibe from you whatsoever. Not only that, I'm pretty damn chuffed that you've been contributing so much, even though it may understandably feel like a bit of a counter-intuitive thing to do for an atheist in a thread like this. Been loving it!
> 
> I agree there has been a little bit of ping ponging. While you have been wonderfully open about some of your opinions on things, personally, I don't really think you've been a culprit. Since you asked. :happy:




^what she said 


I want to answer to Dromond's question about ever having direct contact with something "other wordly" or was it "unworldly" anyway... 

First of all, let me just say, that I am not the kind who has ever believed in "ghosts" being among us. Demons, evil spirits perhaps (but I am pretty skeptical and always have been about them interacting with us... that is, until what I am about to tell you happened)... 

I used to live in this little cottage and this was when it all began (it has never occurred or happened at any other location), at first I told myself and/or tried to convince myself it was just a "waking dream" but the duration and happening of it became too real.

I would be "asleep" (or in some state of in between) and I could see, feel and hear, laying as I was in my bed, some unseen malevolent force. It would take my sheet and pull it so tight on me or maybe even was holding my arms and legs so that I couldn't move. I could hear the sheets rustling, see it all happening but was not completely awake. It would happen every time the lights were completely off and I started sleeping with a light on. No joke.

One night I could even hear and feel it pulling my hair on the pillow and making it so my head couldn't move. I would fully come awake when the fear was too much for me and be in exactly the position I was *dreaming* in, same pajamas, everything... this happened for months (not every night but enough). I would pray so hard after each time. I would cry about it, I was freaked out of my gourd!!

I had been reading about bad dreams and how to make them stop (even though you would still never get me to believe this was a dream) and it said in order for the thing that makes you afraid to go away, you have to face it head on, Challenge it.

I finally had it happen, where when the thing held me and kept me from moving, that I got very upset and in my mind I screamed at it "STOP!! Let go of me!!!" and I tightened my muscles to try to get away. I then felt this whoosh and heard a sound like a cross between a lion's roar and I don't know how to describe it and felt it grab on to my throat! What was weird is in my mind, I calmly said "this thing is going to kill me" and just seemed to be at peace with it. Right after that thought I heard bells ringing.. yes, like church bells and it let go, I woke up and have never had it happen again.

I told this to a friend of mine and she thinks something bad happened in that house or near it. I have no idea what it was.


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## lille (May 13, 2014)

I wasn't sure if this should go here or in the health forum, but since it goes along with spirituality and this thread has been so vibrant and generally awesome, I guess I'll ask here.

Does anyone have any experience with alternative healing methods such as crystals or energy healing? Anything like that.


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## lucca23v2 (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm just internalizing comments because I'm a defensive atheist
> 
> I kid, I kid.
> 
> ...



Awesome question. Personally, I don't know. I think I would have ended up with the same belief. But to answer your question, my parents were taking me and my siblings to church for as far back as I can remember. 

That being said, we had summers off because we were always sent to PR to our grandmothers and aunts for the summer. none of them went to church. So we got healthy doses of not being in church for a long time as well.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 13, 2014)

Goreki said:


> And my favourite biblical character is Lillith




Lilith is quite a character, but she's not in the Bible. Would Jezebel do as an alternate choice?


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## Amaranthine (May 13, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> ^what she said
> 
> 
> I want to answer to Dromond's question about ever having direct contact with something "other wordly" or was it "unworldly" anyway...
> ...



I thought you might find this interesting: http://paranormal.about.com/od/humanenigmas/a/Old-Hag-Syndrome.htm

What you described sounds very similar to this, to me. It's one of those strange things the body does during sleep paralysis. Back when I had been trying to get into wake-induced lucid dreaming, I had a similarish experience. I was just trying to meditate and get myself in a relaxed state, and I suddenly got this black, dark mental imagery with a demonic voice/presence. It definitely felt like there was something "there" so I googled it and found this.


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## lille (May 13, 2014)

Amaranthine said:


> I thought you might find this interesting: http://paranormal.about.com/od/humanenigmas/a/Old-Hag-Syndrome.htm
> 
> What you described sounds very similar to this, to me. It's one of those strange things the body does during sleep paralysis. Back when I had been trying to get into wake-induced lucid dreaming, I had a similarish experience. I was just trying to meditate and get myself in a relaxed state, and I suddenly got this black, dark mental imagery with a demonic voice/presence. It definitely felt like there was something "there" so I googled it and found this.



Sleep paralysis sucks. I've had it happen a few times over the years and it's terrifying. Oddly enough it's a fairly common symptom of anxiety in African Americans and is much more rare in other ethnicities.


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## AuntHen (May 13, 2014)

^ Ooo thanks for this. I had a co-worker who had the waking paralysis but she said she was always fully awake, with her eyes open, couldn't move. So I dismissed having the same thing as her as I knew I was still somewhat asleep plus the creepy thing always pulling my sheets, holding my legs, etc. It is was so creepy but at least I am not the only one (if this is what was happening). I just wonder why it only happened there because while living there I would go stay with my sister or go travelling and it would never happen outside of my little house. Weird.


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## Tad (May 13, 2014)

With regards to upbringing, I was brought up in the United Church of Canada, which started as Methodist, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists getting together to share resources in small town Canada, and somehow went on to become possibly the most liberal 'main stream' church in the world. Having said that, most of my church attending life was under the same minister who had come here from Scotland and was probably less hippy-dippy than much of the governing body of the church. Certainly I think that may have played some role in me feeling free to make up my own mind about what I believe and question.

Probably a bigger factor was just growing up in a pretty secular time and place, in a family full of engineers and the like. Our dinner table discussions never went to "Because that is what the bible says!" it was always looking at the physics of the situation, or the morality of it, or the pragmatism of it. I think I just internalized those values/tools, which didn't really require faith.

With regards to super-natural experiences, I have not. My wife has, but not when I've been around, so I just accept that she experienced something, and try to keep the standard open/questioning approach to what it could have been (that is: I believe she experienced what she experienced, I don't believe any of fully understand our experiences or always interpret them accurately, so I don't take her experiences as proof of anything--I mean that in a very inclusive sort of way, rather than as code for saying they were not supernatural. I'm saying I don't know what they were, and there are all sorts of possibilities, and I don't feel a need to decide on a most likely explanation).

I think it is much easier being agnostic if you are comfortable with questions that are not answerable.


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## Amaranthine (May 13, 2014)

fat9276 said:


> ^ Ooo thanks for this. I had a co-worker who had the waking paralysis but she said she was always fully awake, with her eyes open, couldn't move. So I dismissed having the same thing as her as I knew I was still somewhat asleep plus the creepy thing always pulling my sheets, holding my legs, etc. It is was so creepy but at least I am not the only one (if this is what was happening). I just wonder why it only happened there because while living there I would go stay with my sister or go travelling and it would never happen outside of my little house. Weird.



That is a little odd! One potential explanation is that your sleeping habits differ depending on location, and things happened to be just right at that place. Or perhaps there's darker, more mysterious forces at work :happy:

I've really been enjoying reading this thread - so many different perspectives and experiences. And I like that a number of questions have been thrown in as well. 

I was raised Catholic, and attended Catholic schools until the end of high school. This was mostly rough for me, because I started identifying as agnostic/atheist in 7th or 8th grade. I was outright refused from a few organizations (having to do with social justice and whatnot) in the school because I wouldn't deny that I wasn't religious. I've looked at a lot of different ideas and belief systems, only to come to the conclusion that I feel no need to specifically categorize myself and affiliate with any sort of story or traditions. 

I think I ended up being the one having an effect on my parents. Considering the school thing, they tried to raise me Catholic. My mom would try to bring me to mass sometimes. But...well, they were never very into it. And since my departure from anything religious, my parents have seemingly followed suit. 

I suppose I do have one question, that's been touched on some in the thread, but I'd like to hear more about it. For anyone Pagan/Wiccan/a practicer of witchcraft. It is believed that any kind of spell or magick has an effect beyond the psychological effect it produces when you do it? I can definitely see the allure in that respect - doing something special and symbolic, and using it as motivation or a perspective changer. But beyond that, I'm unsure about what it entails.


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## Goreki (May 13, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Lilith is quite a character, but she's not in the Bible. Would Jezebel do as an alternate choice?


Isn't she? Where does she come from?


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## ODFFA (May 13, 2014)

Amaranthine said:


> I suppose I do have one question, that's been touched on some in the thread, but I'd like to hear more about it. For anyone Pagan/Wiccan/a practicer of witchcraft. It is believed that any kind of spell or magick has an effect beyond the psychological effect it produces when you do it? I can definitely see the allure in that respect - doing something special and symbolic, and using it as motivation or a perspective changer. But beyond that, I'm unsure about what it entails.



My best explanation of this - not from much experience yet either, but mostly from reading - is that it can be summed up as a 'law of attraction' thing. As in, what you believe you'll get, you'll get; or what you focus on expands. So the idea is that the spell is, like others have said, much like a prayer to the universe using props; and that this activity pretty much compels the universe - to whatever degree - to 'give you what you're asking for.' There are, of course, the more naturalistic pagans / atheist witches who perhaps wouldn't see it quite that way.

With a big nod to what Tad has said about the attitude of agnosticism, I should say, I'm not very decided on what I think here. But in my reasoning about the more transcendent side to magick, this is what I end up with most days..... I am a fan of the idea 'what you focus on expands.' Does this happen _only_ in your own consciousness? I don't think so. I believe your environment does adhere to where you're at mentally, on a very subtle level. Is it as simplistic as snapping your fingers and waiting for life to deliver? Hell no! Is there anything supernatural/otherworldly about this 'universal law.' Nope, I don't think there is. But.... is there something mystical and mysterious about it? Indeed. As there is with most things in the natural world when you take the time to ponder and enjoy them, really.

Maybe it's a semantics game I play, but being a pantheist, these are the fine distinctions I like to draw and the best way I can word them. And in my completely biased opinion, magick is mostly about the psychological effects. My mind likes to give 80% credit to the work done intentionally within and 20% to the fact that the universe will make changes along with you, since you are a part of it and it a part of you.


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## Donna (May 13, 2014)

Goreki said:


> Isn't she? Where does she come from?



I think she is mentioned in the Old Testament just once, almost an obscure reference. I will have to do some digging. But what I do recall is that Lilith is part of Jewish mythos. She's a succubus and her story is written about in the Talmud. She was to be Adam's first wife and according to the story God created her from the same dust he created Adam. She left the Garden of Eden on her own because she didn't want to be domineered by Adam. 

I'm going off memory here, folks, so if I'm wrong don't shoot me.  I will have to pull out some old books and give a good read regarding Lilith now.


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## Donna (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> *snip*
> 
> Were you born into your current religion or did you choose it on your own?
> 
> ...



I was born into a very Christian family. I chose to become Pagan on my own, and pretty much in secret for the first few years out of necessity. I admit, the idea of spells intrigued me and I was very naive about real Paganism and Witchcraft. I thought I could just snap my fingers and make things happen. I learned very quickly, and very humiliatingly, that is not what Paganism is about. 

When I started getting serious and reading everything I could get my hands on, I started learning about different practices and celebrations. I like the symbolism of Paganism much more than I do in straight Christianity. However, deep down inside I could never really escape the feeling that I was somehow doing something that was forbidden. I met a woman at a class once who called herself a Christian Witch and she explained to me her approach. She follows the New Testament teachings of Jesus and calls upon the Holy Spirit, much the same way another Wiccan might call on the Cernunnos or Zeus, depending on the pantheon they recognize. 

When I met my husband, I found myself following the more strict version of Christianity I had grown up on. But it never felt quite right. Just like being Pagan never felt 100 % right for me. It was only after I remembered the one Christian Witch I met at a candle making class that it dawned on me to merge the two. Slowly but surely I started incorporating some of my old Pagan practices into my life, but changing things up, did it click. I've come to find out my personal beliefs are not as new as I would like to think; they are an off-shoot of Gnosticism. 

For the record, my Mother and oldest brother are convinced I am going to hell. I would be a little more concerned about it if my Mother wasn't also convinced my oldest brother is going to hell as well because he and his wife converted to Catholicism a few years ago. My preacher husband is fine with my choice, although he generally doesn't join me in any spell casting.


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## Dromond (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> This is interesting, coming from a Christian. Where do you believe the mind and soul separation lies then?
> 
> Is it only upon death that the soul separates from the body and ascends to heaven?



I would say brain death is when the soul departs, but that's just my speculation. I think if the body is an empty shell being kept alive via machines, the soul isn't there anymore.



lucca23v2 said:


> I don't feel like i have been playing a ping pong. I feel like i have been answering or clearing up misinformation, however, if i have been contributing the the "ping-pong" I apologize. It is not my intent.



No apologies needed. You weren't the problem.



Ninja Glutton said:


> None of my replies were meant to bait anyone in whatsoever, for the record. I'm trying to be an active contributor and I've loved hearing everyone's answers to any question I've asked.
> 
> I really hope I'm not coming off like I'm trying to goad people into arguments.
> 
> ...



You weren't the problem either.



Ninja Glutton said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm just internalizing comments because I'm a defensive atheist
> 
> I kid, I kid.
> 
> ...



I was born into a Catholic family, and I'm the only one that has departed the church. My sister is still Catholic, though she's certainly not rigid about it. Some of my cousins/aunts/uncles are a different story. They can get to be a bit much. My mom always wanted me to have a Catholic wedding, but she got the next best thing when I married my first wife, who was Greek Orthodox. The Catholic and Orthodox churches recognize each other's ceremonies as valid. She was happy with that.



lille said:


> I wasn't sure if this should go here or in the health forum, but since it goes along with spirituality and this thread has been so vibrant and generally awesome, I guess I'll ask here.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with alternative healing methods such as crystals or energy healing? Anything like that.



Some years ago, I knew a woman who was a Christian who claimed she had a gift for "moving energy." I'm pretty skeptical by nature, so I thought she was talking bunkum. One evening while both of us were visiting mutual friends, I was having severe back pains. I have chronic spinal pain, it never goes away, but sometimes it is worse than others - and that evening it was definitely worse. As I got up to leave at the end of the evening, she touched my back. She touched the precise spot of the most intense pain. Normally that would make me jump out of my skin, so to speak, but this time I didn't feel pain. Her hand felt hot. Really hot. Then the heat vanished, and my pain went with it. Not just the extra pain, ALL the pain. I almost stumbled, I was so surprised at being suddenly pain-free. I turned to look at her, and she looked exhausted. I could do anything but sputter, "What... how did you..." She said it wasn't her, it was God. She was just the conduit. The normal pain came back, but the severe pain was gone for a while. If I hadn't experienced it, I wouldn't have believed it.


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## AuntHen (May 13, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> snipped
> 
> 
> Were you born into your current religion or did you choose it on your own?
> ...



Both my parents were Christians and raised me and my sisters as such. My Dad still is, my Mom... I have no idea what she believes anymore.

I strongly questioned everything they taught me when I was in high school and in my early 20's. I am surprised my Mom didn't shatter my feelings on Christianity based on what she put the family through and choices she made when I was around 13. I think her behavior actually made me cling to it even more and helped me get though some really hard times.

My parents and the church congregations we went to, taught a more "guilty" type doctrine than what I have come to believe on my own. I think I didn't truly understand about the role and love of Christ growing up. I kind of pushed it to the side and focused solely on my relationship with "the Father". 

I have often thought about whether I would believe, if I had been raised differently/parents had different beliefs, etc. The truth is, I can't say. I *was *raised with it and had experiences in my life when I was a child and an adult that have made me embrace it even more but also go over it with a fine tooth comb and make it my own.


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## Jah (May 14, 2014)

Ninja Glutton said:


> Here's a question I recently thought of:
> 
> Were you born into your current religion or did you choose it on your own?
> 
> Do you think you would have ended up in the same niche had it not been for your parents?



I was born into a family of atheists and wasn't baptised or anything like that. I chose to be a Christian when I learned about prayer in school.


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## ODFFA (May 14, 2014)

Jah said:


> I was born into a family of atheists and wasn't baptised or anything like that. I chose to be a Christian when I learned about prayer in school.



I have a very similar story to this, even though my mom is a Christian. We functioned more as an atheist family in the sense of no praying, no churchgoing, almost no religious talk and not really doing anything for the sake of tradition.

I gravitated towards Christianity from what I saw at school and, in retrospect, because of some emotional issues I was having....which included the daddy-variety. The whole Heavenly Father idea appealed very strongly to my wee self back then.

And almost two years ago, realising that I was not personally benefiting from Christianity on certain psychological and philosophical levels either, I made the much more gradual, cognitively aware switch to paganism.


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## agouderia (May 14, 2014)

As with most things in life, the large majority of children tends to follow what is set at home in their families one way or the other. Only a minority of about 20% truly deviates from that, for all sorts of reasons.

Especially faith, believing have many elements of basic trust to them that are very difficult to fully develop in later life, so some foundations have to be laid at home or in school.

So as far as that goes, my own agnostic leaning towards atheist approach to religion does come from a profoundly secular family, even generations back. All my friends have at least one (or more) very religious grandparent to offer - I in turn have a great-grandfather who was a convinced socialist (a real one, not what people in the US commonly like to label as such ;-) ) and officially left the church in 1919 after WWI where he found the hypocritical role of the military chaplains unbearable. 

My parents didn't give any religious instruction of mine any thought until they noticed one Christmas when I was about 7 that I had screwed up knowledge on who the Three Kings were. So I was sent to Lutheran Sunday School, simply with the thought in mind that a serious gap in my cultural-historic education needed to be filled (that's an issue in an academic household). 

Being good at history I did a decent job of that academically, but having no real role models the spiritual, faith part of it,the really believing in something always eluded me.
When I got a little older, as already mentioned, I was confronted with the fact that the Christian religion offered very little for me as a woman as far as a pro-active, positive, self-determined role was concerned. 

Initially, I was raised on the background of the US approach, which is freedom *to* religion, the freedom to believe in any (even self-declared) religion as an absolute, probably even the highest and strongly protected civil right.
Later, studying European, and particularly French 18th century history, I realized that the Enlightenment, the laicist concept of religious freedom being one of freedom *from* religion in the public sphere, worship being relegated to the private sphere is the one which I believe in from a constitutional perspective.


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## Amaranthine (May 14, 2014)

Here's something for a more...light-hearted and possibly silly note. 

Whenever someone sneezes, my immediate reaction is to say, of course, "bless you." 

And even though it seems even more nit-picky than all the "Happy Holidays!" controversy between different religions, I feel like it might be more consistent for me to say something else with no religious connotation. Not that I have an issue with it at all. 

This lead me to look up: reactions to sneezing!

Some of them are interesting, and some rather amusing ("Drink more water!") 

So...has anyone else thought about those kinds of little expressions that imply something about faith or religion, yet are generally accepted by everyone? 

And for something more general - because surely people don't care about this at all (and indeed, I mostly wanted to share Wikipedia having a page dedicated to sneezing reactions) - how do you feel about any of that holiday-related controversy, and the transformation of certain religious holidays (like Christmas) into secular celebrations of consumerism?

It'd also be cool to hear about belief/faith related celebrations that aren't popularly recognized (like Christmas and Easter, etc)


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## Dromond (May 14, 2014)

If I know or suspect the sneezer is Christian, I will say "Bless you!" Otherwise, I'll say "Gesundheit!" The exception is if I'm being silly, when I'll say "Excuse you!" or something to that effect.

Edited to add: I'm not bothered by secular Christmas celebrations. The holiday is deeply ingrained in Western culture, so it makes sense that atheists/agnostics/non-Christians would celebrate the day. Peace on Earth and goodwill toward all is a great thing, no matter what you do or don't believe. Plus loot. Loot is good.


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## Ninja Glutton (May 14, 2014)

Dromond said:


> If I know or suspect the sneezer is Christian, I will say "Bless you!" Otherwise, I'll say "Gesundheit!" The exception is if I'm being silly, when I'll say "Excuse you!" or something to that effect.
> 
> Edited to add: I'm not bothered by secular Christmas celebrations. The holiday is deeply ingrained in Western culture, so it makes sense that atheists/agnostics/non-Christians would celebrate the day. Peace on Earth and goodwill toward all is a great thing, no matter what you do or don't believe. Plus loot. Loot is good.



The last part is something I definitely do. I love the nostalgia and over-commercialization of Christmas and I'd want my future offspring to have the same joy and over-excitement over getting ass tons of presents. I love Christmas.


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## lucca23v2 (May 15, 2014)

I say both Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. There are so many, Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, Boxing Day...

i don't like the over commercializing of any holiday, but that is the USA... they sell the hell out of anything and everything.

Here is a list you will find funny Amaranthine..

December, 2014 Daily Holidays, Special and Wacky Days Calendar:
http://www.holidayinsights.com/moreholidays/december.htm

#23 is hilarious!


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## bigmac (May 15, 2014)

Dromond said:


> If I know or suspect the sneezer is Christian, I will say "Bless you!" Otherwise, I'll say "Gesundheit!" The exception is if I'm being silly, when I'll say "Excuse you!" or something to that effect.
> 
> Edited to add: I'm not bothered by secular Christmas celebrations. The holiday is deeply ingrained in Western culture, so it makes sense that atheists/agnostics/non-Christians would celebrate the day. Peace on Earth and goodwill toward all is a great thing, no matter what you do or don't believe. Plus loot. Loot is good.



Winter solstice celebrations are good. As is the veneration of trees. I can do without the loot thing -- people have way too much junk -- its possible to have nice party without loot.


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## Tad (May 15, 2014)

I figure that the Christian church took a lot of existing holidays and took them over, so there is no reason they can't be taken back and changed into something else again 

That being said, I hate the hyper-commercialization of practically every single holiday. But that is really a rant about how our culture has evolved, not about spirituality (I don't believe that commercialism is the opposite of spirituality, for what that is worth)


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## ODFFA (May 23, 2014)

Right now I'm on my lunch break and, looking through my youtube subscriptions for something interesting to watch while nomming, I decided on a sermon. There's a gay Afrikaans pastor that I find to be just brilliant. The talks are way more motivational than they are sententious. 

The Afrikaner culture is incredibly restrictive and conservative, even leaving Christianity out of the mix. You even hear it in the language. Afrikaans can have a terribly stilted sound to it *shudders* This guy just flies in the face of all of that, both in what he says and in the way he says it. And, well, I suppose also just by being a gay Afrikaner Christian. This particular talk is entitled: _"The rebel and the conformist get their fuel from the same tank." _Ugh! I wish I could share it with you guys.

So, that's one of the non-pagan things I occasionally enjoy doing. As for holidays, I say merry Christmas. We don't realllly have a happy holidays saying in Afrikaans :doh: Haven't had the chance to wish anyone a merry Yule or a happy Summer Solstice yet.


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## fat hiker (May 26, 2014)

bigmac said:


> To a certain extent yes. However, religion magnifies the human predilection toward violence.
> 
> Ireland is fast becoming a much more secular country. The intensity of sectarian fighting has abated in lockstep. A good example of how abandoning religion improves society.



Northern Ireland, where the violence was headquartered, was fast becoming a less religious state 60 years ago when my mother left. From what I hear, church attendance there has changed very little since the Peace Accord came in 20 years ago.

In Eire (Republic of Ireland, the South, Eire, your choice of names) there hasn't been violence since the 1940s. Religious observance remained strong right into the 1990s. But since the election of their first woman president, Mary Robinson, and their deep adoption into the EU, church attendance has dropped noticeably - with no change in the overall peaceful state of the country.

I think you've been confusing the two parts of Ireland, which does your arguement no good. And after the 20th century, one has to say that atheism has lots of blood on its hands.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 27, 2014)

fat hiker said:


> I'm assuming you're referring to Communism here. Which prompts me to ask, considering how much it proselytizes, if you would consider Communism to be a genuinely atheistic religion?


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## Tad (May 27, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I'm assuming you're referring to Communism here. Which prompts me to ask, considering how much it proselytizes, if you would consider Communism to be a genuinely atheistic religion?



Sure, nominally communist governments did some of these (the Ukrainians under Stallin, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge are the two that jump to mind). But then you have various groups under Nazi Germany, the Armenians under the Ottoman Empire, and various other smaller racial/ethnic/cultural purgings -- not always by purely atheist governments, but not religiously motivated either.

To me this argues that hate is a powerful and dangerous tool that some leaders are effective at wielding, and then aiming that hate at 'the other.' That other might be religious, it could be ethnic, a different skin colour, a different political/philosophical leaning (look at how McCarthyism was developing before it thankfully fell apart), etc.

That religion has often been the source of the other is, to my mind, just a factor of convenience--because religion concerns itself with moral issues, it is easier to whip up hatred of those who are doing it wrong. But history has shown we have plenty of capability of being just as stupid about other perceived differences.


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