# average is the new fat... my rant...



## lipmixgirl (Jun 8, 2006)

ok, here is my beef - i am sick and tired of average size girls billing themselves as "BBWs"... 

apparently, they don't get it - they are buying into this media reality that they are fat and they are AVERAGE!!!

for all of you who know me personally, you can vouch for the fact that i am all about inclusion... 

but i must be heard - a girl who is a size 14 is no more a BBW than i am black, asian, male, or 2-headed.... 

and no, i don't care if she can buy clothes at lane bryant, torrid, fashion bug, or any other fat girl store....

can i get an AMEN?!?!?!?!?


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## Brenda (Jun 8, 2006)

Size 14 is fat, Just not as fat as you I guess.


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## Ash (Jun 8, 2006)

I think that, if a size 14 chick wants to identify as a BBW, let her. Whatever makes her happy. It's no skin off my nose. 

However, I _might_ be less tolerant if a guy claims to be an FA but will only date the 14-18 size range girls. Double standard, I guess.


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## Wagimawr (Jun 8, 2006)

Um, yeah, Brenda, that's not cool.

I'd say a size 14's just on the edge of BBWness, but yeah, it's scary when thin girls get billed as "fat".


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## lipmixgirl (Jun 8, 2006)

Brenda said:


> Size 14 is fat, Just not as fat as you I guess.


 
 you were able to deduce that i am much larger than a size 14.... brava! 
care to share any other glaring facts with the peanut gallery?


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## ripley (Jun 8, 2006)

It's kind of ironic that a size 14 girl would identify herself as fat, when in reality average is getting bigger and bigger as America gets fatter and fatter.

I agree with Ashley, too...whatever floats her boat. But to me? Anything under about a size 18 is pretty much middle of the road.


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## Brenda (Jun 8, 2006)

You are judgemental.


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## Emma (Jun 8, 2006)

Brenda said:


> You are judgemental.



How is she? I've not seen her do anything wrong.

You however are rude.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 8, 2006)

It seems harmless enough. Women who identify themselves as BBWs who clearly are not seem to lose interest in the FA/SA movement fast enough. In talking to them though, we have to look at their motives for labelling themselves as such, as well as their attitudes about fat.


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Average is constantly changing, both in the figures and in the consciousness.

lipmixgirl, you do have a point, I sympathise withyou as far as possible, but its a gray area.


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## Sumguy (Jun 8, 2006)

Fashion Bug is a fat girl store?


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## Echoes (Jun 8, 2006)

Sumguy said:


> Fashion Bug is a fat girl store?



Half of it is.


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## Sandie S-R (Jun 8, 2006)

[size=+1]AMEN and HALLELUAH!![/size]


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## gangstadawg (Jun 8, 2006)

Brenda said:


> Size 14 is fat, Just not as fat as you I guess.


that might be considered thick not fat.


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## Tracyarts (Jun 8, 2006)

Well, I know a lot of women who are size 14-18 and who are labeled as "overweight" and even "obese" depending on their height. If you are told every time you go to a doctor that you are overweight or obese, and when your dress size is labeled as a "large size" or "plus size", then I'd think you might just also think that you can belong to the fat girl club. 

I mean, I would think so. But that's just me.

Tracy


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## gangstadawg (Jun 8, 2006)

Tracyarts said:


> Well, I know a lot of women who are size 14-18 and who are labeled as "overweight" and even "obese" depending on their height. If you are told every time you go to a doctor that you are overweight or obese, and when your dress size is labeled as a "large size" or "plus size", then I'd think you might just also think that you can belong to the fat girl club.
> 
> I mean, I would think so. But that's just me.
> 
> Tracy


ill give you an example of a woman that some have labeled fat. BUFFIE DA(or the) BODY do a google/yahoo search. she isnt fat but she is thick as hell.


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

lipmixgirl said:


> ok, here is my beef - i am sick and tired of average size girls billing themselves as "BBWs"...
> 
> apparently, they don't get it - they are buying into this media reality that they are fat and they are AVERAGE!!!
> 
> ...



So does that make anyone in the SA or FA movement who is not over a certain weight a hypocrit, or not allowed?

(The thought just came to me, not what I believe)


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

*I am a size 18. Does this mean I don't belong here?*


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

The question remains, what do you term yourself and how does that compare with the term that society or social strata lable you? If they don't match or are deemed inappropriate, well we're in sticky territory.


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## FitChick (Jun 8, 2006)

After I started losing weight (starting size was 26-28...26 on top, 28 on bottom), the fat kept coming off until I hit size 10-14 (10 on top, 14 on bottom).

And so for a long time until the loss picked up again, I had to shop in two places: "regular" stores for my tops, and plus size stores for my bottoms. Keep in mind that my loss was not wanted, but was a by-product of something I was/am doing to treat my health. 

I would occasionally get comments offline and online (like, um, HERE), saying that size 14 women are not BBWs. Now, being a BBW was important to me, and here it was, slipping away from me. And to hear comments like that in places like (um, HERE), when OUT IN THE AVERAGE WORLD, I WAS STILL REGARDED AS FAT?! I thought size didn't matter here?

Do you have IDEA what it is like to be regarded as "skinny" in the fat acceptance world, and still FAT everywhere else? TRUST ME its better to be either very fat or very skinny than to go through that. At least when I was very fat, EVERYONE AGREED on it. When you hit that iffy size 12-14 zone, the attitude changes defending on who you talk to!

IMAGINE, just for a moment, being told you are fat in the "real world", only to go to the fat acceptance zone for comfort or support, and be told THERE, "You're not fat anymore" (or not fat enough)! IMAGINE IT because I LIVED it. It really messes with your psyche, esp. if you liked being a BBW. Even at the smaller size I am now, I still look a bit fat because of all the loose skin (with clothes on, it LOOKS like fat, esp. around the middle).

It "hits" in little ways, sometimes in bigger ways...like the yellow messenger bag I'd bought from BigFatBlog a few years ago: "The average American woman is a size 14". I've used it for years, loved it, still do.

But then, I was in their CafePress shop not long ago, and saw they still sell the same bag, but now it says: "The average American woman is a size 16". Its things like that that give you a good, swift kick in the gut when you are or were a size 14 and still thought of yourself as plus size.


WOW, I REALLY needed to vent and get this one off my chest. I've held it in too long.


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Exactly. Its a minefield.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

Australian Lord said:


> The question remains, what do you term yourself and how does that compare with the term that society or social strata lable you? If they don't match or are deemed inappropriate, well we're in sticky territory.



*
I consider myself a BBW...and have been refered to as such by a fair few others.
But if that doesn't "work" for folks here, then I will gladly pull put my stakes and leave. *


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Thats really the question in a nut shell.


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## FitChick (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *
> I consider myself a BBW...and have been refered to as such by a fair few others.
> But if that doesn't "work" for folks here, then I will gladly pull put my stakes and leave. *



MoonGoddess, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE!! You are right now going through what I did for many months, when I was in that 12-14 (even size 16!) range. I think its important for women in that range to stay here, let people see that women in that range ARE plus size, and DO belong in a forum that touts itsself as fat _acceptance._


I can't help but be reminded of a situation we have in the Jewish community, its so like this.

There are those who have one Jewish parent, the father. Now, in Jewish law they are not regarded as Jews. Yet out in the real world, THEY OFTEN ARE, esp. for persecution reasons. Imagine the pain of such a person, being labeled "Jew" by antisemites, only to find non-acceptance in the Jewish world too. No religious debates, please...I just wanted to use that as a comparison.


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Please stick on.


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## MissToodles (Jun 8, 2006)

There is a certain amount of priviliege one may receive at a smaller weight. Let's face it: someone who is a size 14 may not receive as much shit on a day to day basis as a larger size. But someone who is much fatter should also realize that a smaller plus size (for lack of a better term) may have their own body issues.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

*I don't have issues with my body as such. Others do. I have been passed over for jobs in high profile departments, I get nasty comments from people, and my own husband wishes that I were 80 pounds lighter (he never lets it rest).

I came here because I feel it is a safe and accepting haven. But I will be damned if my smaller size is going to be ridiculed. I don't suffer fools, and I will not tolerate being bashed.*


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

MissToodles said:


> There is a certain amount of priviliege one may receive at a smaller weight. Let's face it: someone who is a size 14 may not receive as much shit on a day to day basis as a larger size. But someone who is much fatter should also realize that a smaller plus size (for lack of a better term) may have their own body issues.




*I do get a fair faceful of shit most days. For what that is worth. I just cannot believe that this topic even came up. 

It hurts to be constantly excluded over things I cannot control. *


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## FitChick (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *I don't have issues with my body as such. Others do. I have been passed over for jobs in high profile departments, I get nasty comments from people, and my own husband wishes that I were 80 pounds lighter (he never lets it rest).
> 
> I came here because I feel it is a safe and accepting haven. But I will be damned if my smaller size is going to be ridiculed. I don't suffer fools, and I will not tolerate being bashed.*




{{{{{{MoonGoddess}}}}}}, I know how you feel! PM me if you feel the need, ok?

You know what's really bizarre? When I was 300 lbs, nobody bothered me about my size. But now that I've lost a lot of weight, I get weird comments from people (they think my midsection is fat because I've got lots of loose skin from weight loss), and I have this personal trainer friend who tells me he can "help you lose that remaining middle fat"! ARGH!

I think when you are LESS fat, or formerly fat, anything about your body that looks like fat gets noticed MORE. When I was 290 lbs and gained 10, nobody noticed. It was for ME actually easier being bigger.

MoonGoddess, I wonder sometimes if a better place for people like us is http://www.size-acceptance.org I've noticed everything from average size to super sized in their group.

Places like Abby, Dim and NAAFA, I've noticed, seem to attract more super sized people...I even started to get the impression that "fat acceptance" is for super sized people, while "SIZE acceptance" is for everyone else. I COULD be wrong, but in trying to navigate the size/fat acceptance world these last 6 years or so, that's a general impression I've picked up on.

I just feel very, very sad right now....I was afraid someone else also would run into what I did when I went down to a smaller size, and one reason I brought up my feelings in a limited way a few years back was to help supersize people see that size 12-18 IS STILL fat. I'm really sad that someone else had to feel that same hurt.


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## ThatFatGirl (Jun 8, 2006)

I have no problem with someone in the 14-18 size range identifying themselves as bbws if they like, I certainly did when I was in that size range during my late teens and twenties (oh the many weight fluctuations.. hehe). The truth is, when you're that size the rest of society is calling you fat even though you may in reality be closer to average. As long as Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan are lauded for being rail thin, anyone who doesn't fit this so-called ideal is going to be made to feel like shit by messages received from the media. Labels like Big Beautiful Woman came about to help us fatties feel better about ourselves. If identifying with it makes someone feel better, let 'em have it. I find all the labels tiring and as time and people change, the definitions blur.

I believe I know where you're coming from, Lipmixgirl. If you're in the SSBBW category (damn the categories!) like me, you're likely dealing with much more than someone in the 14-18 size range. I don't think it lessens however how it feels to someone smaller than my size to deal with being less than what the media and a lot of society tells us we should be (or in this case MORE). We all have self image issues and can support eachother regardless of being size 18, 28, or 38.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

*I really think that categorizing people is unhealthy. All it does is serve to seperate/segregate people more than they already are.

Just my two cents worth. Take it or leave it. *


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

FitChick said:


> MoonGoddess, I wonder sometimes if a better place for people like us is http://www.size-acceptance.org I've noticed everything from average size to super sized in their group.
> 
> Places like Abby, Dim and NAAFA, I've noticed, seem to attract more super sized people...I even started to get the impression that "fat acceptance" is for super sized people, while "SIZE acceptance" is for everyone else. I COULD be wrong, but in trying to navigate the size/fat acceptance world these last 6 years or so, that's a general impression I've picked up on.
> 
> I just feel very, very sad right now....I was afraid someone else also would run into what I did when I went down to a smaller size, and one reason I brought up my feelings in a limited way a few years back was to help supersize people see that size 12-18 IS STILL fat. I'm really sad that someone else had to feel that same hurt.



*I appreciate the sentiments FitChick. Being ostracized is painful, no matter what the reason is. If I decide to leave here, I will check out that link. Thanks for that.*


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## ThatFatGirl (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *I really think that categorizing people is unhealthy. All it does is serve to seperate/segregate people more than they already are.
> 
> Just my two cents worth. Take it or leave it. *



I hate them too, but they seem impossible to avoid in a community that is defined by categories to begin with (being "overweight"). It isn't surprising this gets broken down into further categories.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

ThatFatGirl said:


> I hate them too, but they seem impossible to avoid in a community that is defined by a category to begin with (being "overweight"). It isn't surprising this gets broken down into further categories.



*I understand that. But it still doesn't make it right.*


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Well, lets get out and fight the the good fight then. Best place to start is at home. IE here.


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## Jane (Jun 8, 2006)

I really think she was talking about society making these average-sized ladies being made to feel they are fat.


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Well um *tries to save face*. Start at home, then move to work and friends. ...


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## NFA (Jun 8, 2006)

Weight hatred affects a very wide section of our society. Its not as if these average size women are choosing the identity. For most of them, its been thrust upon them. As BBW became a more widely used term, there was a counter-effect with some who very bitterly hate fat who adopted the term to apply to anyone who was fatter than they felt was acceptable. Unfortunetly, these people often have standards that deem anyone over a size 6 is a BBW. The best demonstration of this phenomenon is on Craigslist, but there other examples. Many diet products now almost exclusively target women in the 8-14 range. Clearly, the social stigma has reached out to include these people as well.

Nevertheless, it isn't wrong to want to point out this social change is fundamentally absurd. The important thing is not to put the blame on these women. They aren't at fault. Its our culture of thinness that is responsible. Still, that shouldn't preclude BBW's from demanding attention for their distinctive concerns and issues. They do often intersect. A woman who is a size 28 will never see a model with her body size in advertising. A woman who is a size 12 will, but they'll be modeling clothes for the woman who is a size 28. This is an absurd situation that harms both parties. But it is also fair to point out that the gap between the people modeling the clothes and the people buying them is much wider for many plus-size women than it is for average size women. Acknowledging that the issue has negative effects on both, shouldn't preclude one from pointing out the especially dire effects on BBWs.

A concern also arises that the smaller women may seek to marginalize SSBBWs. While I don't think its fair to assume this is the case before there is evidence, it clearly happens. Some smaller women want fat acceptance for them, but retain strong bigotries and disdain for larger women. Some aprehensions is fair on the part of a larger woman and we shouldn't attack people for feeling that way. Still, we need to acknowledge that fat hatred has a wide-ranging impact in our culture and many people will feel effected by it and a few will feel outraged by it. What we should all be looking towards, however, is a culture which acknowledges average is average. We aren't there, but we shouldn't resign ourselves to the ever changing goal posts of fat bigotry.


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Quoted for emphisis.


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## Michaela (Jun 8, 2006)

I am a size 12/14 (top) or 16 (bottom) and i do think that i am a BBW.
The problem is that nobody who is used to comparing me to e.g. Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan would consider calling me skinny.
I am too fat to belong to the average built women and too skinny to belong here...


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## 1300 Class (Jun 8, 2006)

Don't doubt yourself for a minute.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

Michaela said:


> I am a size 12/14 (top) or 16 (bottom) and i do think that i am a BBW.
> The problem is that nobody who is used to comparing me to e.g. Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan would consider calling me skinny.
> I am too fat to belong to the average built women and too skinny to belong here...




*I know exactly what you mean. And it sucks. Big time.*


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## FitChick (Jun 8, 2006)

Michaela, Moon Goddess, anyone else....how about we do something that might make everybody happy?


Refer to women in the size 12-18 group as "lower end BBW" (believe it or not there are those who would regard even size TEN as plus size, but I won't include it here unless someone is offended at me leaving it out)

and the sizes above 18 as "higher end BBW".

I actually started using that defintion years ago after my "problem" started, maybe it would work here too?

I do know there is a LOT of resentment on both "ends" but the problem was not created by women on either end who cannot control their body size for the most part: it was created by a thin-obsessed society that we're all SUPPOSED to be working against! Let's not let that same society destroy US HERE!

I know this is a silly dream, but maybe, just maybe if ALL women and men stuck together in this we could show society that people REALLY DO come in all shapes and sizes, and ITS ALL GOOD! We shouldn't let labels divide us.

You know, I had to be reminded of this by my 7 year old this morning...I got offline after reading this thread, and she could see I was visibly upset. She asked me what was wrong, and so I told her. Now this kid is very thin, but very openminded about this issue (she'd have to be, to be around me!)

Anyway, she said, "Mom, you and those other ladies can't let what people think upset them. Its what YOU think about yourself that matters, right? WHO CARES if you're fat or skinny, as long as you're YOU! And like Raven (a TV character she likes) says, People come in ALL shapes and sizes!"


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## crazygrad (Jun 8, 2006)

I'm not sure why anyone is really surprised why a women, size 14 or so, thinks she's fat. The media tells her she is. She probably has friends who tell her she is. Maybe her family too, and the list could go on. Across the size range, women have a variety of issues and concerns, some are the same and others are different based on age, race, religion, class and yes, size.

Why not be glad that a women is trying to develop a positive self esteem and image at whatever size she is rather than just accepting that she's fat and there must be something deficient about her?


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## BBW Betty (Jun 8, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I know this is a silly dream, but maybe, just maybe if ALL women and men stuck together in this we could show society that people REALLY DO come in all shapes and sizes, and ITS ALL GOOD! We shouldn't let labels divide us.



And that is a fabulous example of true size acceptance. I am a borderline SSBBW myself, and have no problem "sharing" the label, for lack of a better word. Truthfully, change (societal acceptance) comes incrementally, and I believe it will happen first for the "lower end" BBWs. 

I'm having a hard time saying this coherently, but I'm going to try....
I am sure ALL women who don't quite fit the "ideal" image are discriminated against. For me, and for some other larger women, it's a matter of perspective; we may not see a size 14 as "plus sized." After all, you can get that size in almost any store, from the normal clothes racks. I have a hard time finding anything even in some of the plus-size stores, and end up ordering much of my clothes only to have to return it about 1/2 the time.

So don't take things personally. I don't think anyone wants you to leave.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 8, 2006)

lipmixgirl said:


> ok, here is my beef - i am sick and tired of average size girls billing themselves as "BBWs"...



I'd like to know why this matters so much to you. What concern is it of yours, if a so-called "average" girl considers herself a BBW? I doubt we can even come to an agreement on what is average. 

Did you ever see the "Real Women Have Real Curves" campaign for Dove? I do not believe that even one of those 6 models is over a size 10 - 12 would be stretching it (those curious, link is http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com). Yet comedians were cracking jokes about what "hippos" they are, journalists wrote comments about how distasteful it is to see "plus size" ladies in their underwear & billboards were defiled with fat jokes. 

Young girls and women are going to feel a certain amount of pressure about their body size no matter how big or small they are. I certainly considered myself in the BBW range when I was in the 26/28 and down to 14W and, even if I didn't, society sure did. 

But really, what do you perceive is being taken away from you, in stating that "smaller" plus sizes aren't really BBW?


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## lipmixgirl (Jun 8, 2006)

Jane said:


> I really think she was talking about society making these average-sized ladies being made to feel they are fat.


 
first off, i'd like to say that my rant was in no way meant to tell anyone that they don't belong here cause they just ain't fat enough... that is simply ridiculous! 

also, NO - we don't need more labels to codify and designate... i am not into dissention...

i am quite aware that FAT is a state of mind... however, i'd like to share with my dim family my thoughts on what i deem REALITY and a CONSTRUCTED REALITY

REALITY - this is based on hard concrete fact... 
i.e. i, personally, am a fat girl... my body is not (by the strictest definitions of the words) curvy, voluptious, proportional... my body is big, fluffy, and pillowesque... i have rolls... according to my baby cousin my body is "gushy"

CONSTRUCTED REALITY - this is not based on hard fact. this is a reality that is constructed to fit and meet a need...
i.e. a 5'6 165 lb woman is a fat girl just like a 5'6 265lb woman or even a 5'6 365 woman... ridiculous!

speaking of which, i'd like to refer to NFA's comment about the diet industry targeting those in the 8-14 range... i just saw one of thes horrible commericals where the dieter in question was a "ragingly fat" size 10 who whittled down to a "scrumptious" size 00... those diet dollars need to feed the multi-billion dollar a year diet machine... 

in a nutshell, my rage is directed not at the average sized woman or man who identifies as fat, but at our international society brainwashing and shoving this load of utter shite down our throats.... all the while indoctrinating women( and men) of average size to buy into this constructed reality...

average size women (and men) - this fat girl is here to tell you, the reality is you ain't fat... now, how you feel on the inside is all you... if you identify yourself as my fattie sister (or brother), i promise that i love you just the same as my supersized kin... 

i repeat, fat is a state of mind... whether you are fat, were fat, or just think you are fat...

the big apple has spoken

p.s. mad props to my sisters curvyem and jane for leaping to my defense earlier in this thread! you ladies rock!!!!

::exeunt:: :bow:


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## OriginalCyn (Jun 8, 2006)

The problem is that average-sized women are seen _as and are treated as if they were fat._ 

And that's nothing new. It happened to me back we I was a 140-150 pound teenager (we're talking ~40 years ago)--with a 24" waist, no less! And I was (or, rather, my butt was) at the largest end of what was available in "missy" sizes at that time.

But I agree with your complaint, which is that, even when advertisers use "large sized" models, they are very rarely truly "large sized." (Although I have to say that I did see a model with a thick middle and very chunky legs modelling a 1X-3X bathing suit in a recent Target weekly ad. She was _much _larger than someone like, say, [celebrated large-sized model]Toccara.)


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## Jack Skellington (Jun 8, 2006)

What is "average" sized to someone is plus sized to another. If an "average" sized woman wants to call herself a BBW as a means of self empowerment I really don't understand the harm.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

Jack Skellington said:


> What is "average" sized to someone is plus sized to another. If an "average" sized woman wants to call herself a BBW as a means of self empowerment I really don't understand the harm.


*
Thank you Jack.*


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## NFA (Jun 8, 2006)

The harm comes from affirming what is a disfunctional system. When we consent to the latest expansion of fat hatred, its only going to advance further. There is nothing wrong with being fat, nor is there anything wrong with being of average size, but they are different. No one should be expected to give up their uniqueness just because someone else wants to claim that uniqueness for themselves. By its nature it marginalizes fat people even if that isn't an explicit interest in a particular case. It dilutes and rearranges the meaning of the word so it no longer represents what it previously had.

Its unfair to think of the initial suggestion as an attack on women of average size. That's not what this is about at all. But there is a right to expect "fat" and to mean something. If we allow for unrestrained subjectivity, allowing anyone who wants to call themselves fat to do so without question, then it becomes more difficult to discuss the situation and concerns of actual fat people. Its nuetralizing a useful vocabulary and shorthand to discuss our lives and concerns, making it much easier for others to tune us out and disregard us. Its a sociological, perhaps even anthropological issue.

This isn't saying that fat hatred doesn't effect people of MANY sizes. But it is saying that there is a difference between cultural perception and reality. If words can mean whatever anyone wants them to mean, then they don't mean anything at all.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 8, 2006)

> CONSTRUCTED REALITY - this is not based on hard fact. this is a reality that is constructed to fit and meet a need...
> i.e. a 5'6 165 lb woman is a fat girl just like a 5'6 265lb woman or even a 5'6 365 woman... ridiculous!



Whose need are we talking about here? The frat boys who consider a 150 lb girl to be unattractively fat, or the girl herself? And what need exactly is she trying to meet, if she considers herself to be a BBW? 

Your initial post seemed rather hostile to me, and aimed at smaller-sized women. With this clarification, I can see that wasn't what you were trying to say at all - and I agree with most of your points. 

Just that, to me, your idea of "average" size is not reality for everyone. And that doesn't make their perspectives "constructed" or any less valid than yours.


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## lipmixgirl (Jun 8, 2006)

NFA said:


> This isn't saying that fat hatred doesn't effect people of MANY sizes. But it is saying that there is a difference between cultural perception and reality. If words can mean whatever anyone wants them to mean, then they don't mean anything at all.


 
woo... nfa, why weren't you and your gf/bf at the heavenly bodies memorial day weekend?!?!?!?!? oh, how i dig a good brain... we so must catch up and wax philosophical on fat and fatness... 

woo...:wubu:


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## gangstadawg (Jun 8, 2006)

lipmixgirl said:


> a 5'6 165 lb woman is a fat girl just like a 5'6 265lb woman or even a 5'6 365 woman... ridiculous!
> 
> 
> look buffie the body is 160 pounds possibly more and really she isnt fat her booty is but she isnt fat. but people have called her fat. she is just ultra thick. do a search on her.


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## Miss Vickie (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *
> I consider myself a BBW...and have been refered to as such by a fair few others.
> But if that doesn't "work" for folks here, then I will gladly pull put my stakes and leave. *



Hey babycakes, don't leave. You belong here. I'm a size 16 now and hell, I still belong here. As far as I'm concerned, how I self identify is my business, and not anyone else's. It didn't make me any less or more a BBW when I was a size 26 and people were calling themselves "fat" at size 18. And my size now shouldn't impact anyone else's life.

My yardstick as to whether people should stay or not isn't size related, but how much do they contribute the community -- whether it be laughs, caring, or the occasional zinger. Your weight has nothing to do with that. If you self-identify as a BBW, or fat chick, or whatever, you belong here.


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## activistfatgirl (Jun 8, 2006)

Reading through this thread really triggered something in me. It's so clear how much we've been tortured and made to feel inadequate and competitive against each other through society. 

Our size 12 to 18 sisters feel any discussion by bigger women about smaller women is threatening; they've felt excluded by society as being fat and by SA movements as being small. 

Our SSBBW sisters have different obstacles like finding clothes online, often deeper ostracism, etc, and want to feel supported in SA communties like this one.

Heck, I feel this competition/weirdness sometimes. I feel like I'm too large to be a BBW or thick or curvy or voluptous at 300 lbs/size 26 but often feel insecure seeing pictures of our SSBBW sisters who bring down the house with their incredible bodies. 

Sometimes I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. And it occurs to me that we probably ALL feel like that time to time. And it's a hugely destructive force.

I think it's super important to be slow to judge someone's intention and slow to anger, because we're up against one hell of a monster telling us ALL that something's wrong with us no matter the size. Women of all sizes have a lot of work ahead of us in peeling back the whispering voices of insecurity and competition. We should also be quick to try to put ourselves in each other shoes. 

I'll ask myself what's it like to be a size 14 AND what its like to be 450 lbs. Then I can understand more!

Oh - and you're all beautiful!


----------



## Miss Vickie (Jun 8, 2006)

Lipmixgirl you're right. It's obscene that a size 14 is considered fat when it's actually the average size of a woman in the US (or was -- it may be bigger now). Believe it or not, my willowy teenage daughter, who is a size 4, has been called "fat" by her peers (I told her "You should tell them wait 'till they see your mom" -- heh). Our culture's relationship with weight is just so bizarre. It's like our standards for beauty are getting thinner while we're getting fatter.

Strange happenings...


----------



## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> Hey babycakes, don't leave. You belong here. I'm a size 16 now and hell, I still belong here. As far as I'm concerned, how I self identify is my business, and not anyone else's. It didn't make me any less or more a BBW when I was a size 26 and people were calling themselves "fat" at size 18. And my size now shouldn't impact anyone else's life.
> 
> My yardstick as to whether people should stay or not isn't size related, but how much do they contribute the community -- whether it be laughs, caring, or the occasional zinger. Your weight has nothing to do with that. If you self-identify as a BBW, or fat chick, or whatever, you belong here.



*I DO identify with being a fat chick, but by the same token if someone with "more seniority" than myself wants me gone...I am history. This forum means much to me. As do the people here. But one thing I don't want to be accused of, ever, is making someone else uncomfortable or unhappy.

Thank you Miss Vickie.*


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 8, 2006)

... Should I stay or should I go now ....
... Should I stay or should I go now ....
... If I stay there will be trouble ....
... If I go it will be doubled ....
... So come on and let me know ....
... Should I cool it or should I go?

:bow:


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> ... Should I stay or should I go now ....
> ... Should I stay or should I go now ....
> ... If I stay there will be trouble ....
> ... If I go it will be doubled ....
> ...




*Still trying to decide. Leaning towards leaving though.

Let's face it, in the grander scheme of things, one person is not going to be missed.*


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## BBWMoon (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *I DO identify with being a fat chick, but by the same token if someone with "more seniority" than myself wants me gone...I am history. This forum means much to me. As do the people here. But one thing I don't want to be accused of, ever, is making someone else uncomfortable or unhappy.
> 
> Thank you Miss Vickie.*




Moon... you are unique and wonderful, and you belong here. :wubu:


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

BBWMoon said:


> Moon... you are unique and wonderful, and you belong here. :wubu:




*I thank you from the depths of my heart. That was so sweet of you to say.* :kiss2:


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *Still trying to decide. Leaning towards leaving though.
> 
> Let's face it, in the grander scheme of things, one person is not going to be missed.*



MoonGoddess, I'm sorry your feelings are hurt and you're feeling unwanted. I think lipmixgirl recognized that her original post might have been worded better, and her subsequent explanation helped to clear things up in my mind. No one in this thread wants you to leave - hell, no one on this board, as far I know, does. 

If I may (and feel free to tell me to shove it), I have a feeling that you'll re-read this thread tomorrow and laugh a little, and wonder why you got so worked up over something a near stranger on a message board said that wasn't even directed at YOU. Why do I say this? 'Cause it happens to me alllll the time (Carrie, meet grain of salt. Grain of salt, Carrie). 

And one more point - just about everywhere you go in life there are people who won't want you. That's just people and life, unfortunately (although I don't think that's the case here at all). Do you just up and leave, or do you thumb your nose, make a completely immature "Neener-neener!" sound, and stick around and have a good time in spite of it? 

So c'mon. Don't take your ball and go home. We kinda like you here, and dramatic, flouncy message board exits are so....2005. 


P.S. I have chocolate, and I'll share it. 'Cause I'm cool like that.


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## JoyJoy (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *I DO identify with being a fat chick, but by the same token if someone with "more seniority" than myself wants me gone...I am history. This forum means much to me. As do the people here. But one thing I don't want to be accused of, ever, is making someone else uncomfortable or unhappy.*
> 
> _*Thank you Miss Vickie.*_


 
No one, except the mods and Conrad himself, has more seniority over anyone else on these forums. Please, please, please don't let anyone else run you off. If these forums do mean a lot to you, then you have every right to stay and enjoy being here. You are a welcome positive influence here, and we would be less if you left.

Edit: yeah...what Carrie said.


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## GWARrior (Jun 8, 2006)

So wheres the "acceptance"? Im a size 18, and have considered losing weight, to feel healthier in my body. 

But I thought this board was about size acceptance??

Whys everything about looks and labels? What is average? What is normal?

All Im hearing now is "Well you dont LOOK big, so you cant consider yourself a BBW."


*sigh* whateverrrrr


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## mossystate (Jun 8, 2006)

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr....

The numbers game....the label game...SICK..SICK..SICK of it all..

I cannot STAND the term 'BBW'..so...if some woman who is size 16 wants my share of it...go for it....

And..once again...it is WOMEN who have to wonder if we 'fit' a certain number...label....yup..yup....men can just....BE!!!!!!!



Oh, and the Dove 'campaign for real beauty'..I hope..wish they would push the envelope a bit with it..but I was happy to see them using an elderly woman in one of their new hair products ad..and she is not the 'acceptable' vision of older..the girl looks her age..and that is wonderful!!(sorry, I know it is not about size..but).
Now, for anybody out there who happens to like the movie critic Richard Roeper(sp)..??...he stated that he was DISGUSTED with the Dove ads.He said if he wanted to see porky women in little clothing, he would go to a summer food festival and watch the fatties in ill-fitting clothing have at a few dozen corn dogs..( ok..I added the corn dog thing..but he said the rest)

TWO THUMBS...DOWN!!


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## FitChick (Jun 8, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Reading through this thread really triggered something in me. It's so clear how much we've been tortured and made to feel inadequate and competitive against each other through society.
> 
> Our size 12 to 18 sisters feel any discussion by bigger women about smaller women is threatening; they've felt excluded by society as being fat and by SA movements as being small.
> 
> ...




Wow. This was an incredibly fantastic and to the point post. Major reps here!

Maybe we can turn this thing around for the GOOD and show society that we WILL NOT let their marginalizing of women of various sizes affect us. Remember: its NOT us against EACH OTHER; its ALL OF US against a fat-hating society that will call a woman/man fat and hate them for it, whether they are 200 lbs "overweight" or 20 lbs "overweight"! Let's get it together!

Can we do it?


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

Carrie said:


> So c'mon. Don't take your ball and go home. We kinda like you here, and dramatic, flouncy message board exits are so....2005.



*I don't flounce. I don't play ball. And I am not dramatic. Right now I am a bit pissed.*


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 8, 2006)

FitChick said:


> Wow. This was an incredibly fantastic and to the point post. Major reps here!
> 
> Maybe we can turn this thing around for the GOOD and show society that we WILL NOT let their marginalizing of women of various sizes affect us. Remember: its NOT us against EACH OTHER; its ALL OF US against a fat-hating society that will call a woman/man fat and hate them for it, whether they are 200 lbs "overweight" or 20 lbs "overweight"! Let's get it together!
> 
> Can we do it?



_*A beautiful and thoughtful post. *_


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## AtlantaVixen (Jun 8, 2006)

This is a very hard thing to put a number in size or weight on... I'm a size 20 and I'm what doctors would call "morbidly obese." So... hard to say what's fat. 

When I meet people, I'm more interested in finding out if they're "new fat" or have always been fat. I've always been fat... since about Kindergarten, and that's more interesting to me. It seems to let me know more about their mindset somehow, but I may have just dreamed that up.


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## FitChick (Jun 8, 2006)

AtlantaVixen said:


> This is a very hard thing to put a number in size or weight on... I'm a size 20 and I'm what doctors would call "morbidly obese." So... hard to say what's fat.
> 
> When I meet people, I'm more interested in finding out if they're "new fat" or have always been fat. I've always been fat... since about Kindergarten, and that's more interesting to me. It seems to let me know more about their mindset somehow, but I may have just dreamed that up.




Something I just thought about...I'm sure HEIGHT has some bearing too, you know? For example, a woman who is 5 ft 5 in and 170 lbs might not be seen as really fat, but if she is 5 foot 1 in she would be!


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## ripley (Jun 8, 2006)

Oh for Pete's sake!


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## Jack Skellington (Jun 8, 2006)

NFA said:


> The harm comes from affirming what is a disfunctional system. When we consent to the latest expansion of fat hatred, its only going to advance further. There is nothing wrong with being fat, nor is there anything wrong with being of average size, but they are different. No one should be expected to give up their uniqueness just because someone else wants to claim that uniqueness for themselves.



I rarely get mad here and I am probably going to regret this.

But, never have I read a bigger pile of sanctimonious hypocritical bullshit. 

No, it really doesn't harm anyone if a "average sized" 16-18 sized woman wants to call herself a BBW. When did the term BBW start to only refer to super sized women? So mid sized BBWs like the 16 to 18 sizes are not BBWs anymore? 

Why, because you don't personally think they should be called that? Are the smaller BBWs going to start being rejected from the size acceptance community now? Has this group become as sizist and close minded about size as the rest of society? Need I remind you that small and average in this community is still very large to the rest of our society.

It's not up to YOU or anyone else to decide if these women should be allowed to refer to themselves as BBWs as means of self empowerment or to feel better about themselves. Nor does them doing this diminish their larger counterparts in anyway.

I better stop right here. I'm getting way too angry. I'm going to step away from these type of topics for a while. Not worth the stress.


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## eightyseven (Jun 8, 2006)

Why should we be analogous to mainstream society and too limit OUR version of beauty to something so arbitrary like a clothing size? Last I checked... BBW stood for "Big BEAUTIFUL Woman." Just because a woman wears a certain size clothing should she not be allowed to think of her body as beautiful? To think that way disgusts the heck out of me. There's a distinct difference between labeling oneself as a BBW and as "fat." Yes, we can all agree that there are some women who are delusional and think they are fat because they weigh 3 figures... that's a sign of real issues. But how can you deny someone the right to be the member of a community when "fat" and "beauty" are so subjective... and really, in the eyes of the beholder? This is especially true for someone like MoonGoddess (sorry to single you out, but it's to make a good point I swear) who is an active and wonderful contributing member of this group. Telling a woman she isn't fat enough to be a BBW is just as bad, if not worse (because this community prides itself on acceptance) than telling a woman she's TOO fat. The original post infuriates me.


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## NFA (Jun 8, 2006)

Jack Skellington said:


> I rarely get mad here and I am probably going to regret this.



You said you couldn't see the harm in subjectivity. I explained how some would see the harm. You don't have to agree, but this is how I feel. But disagreeing with me doesn't give you the right to lie and misrepresent me as a means of refuting me. I cannot respond to a post which did not respond to mine. Play witch hunt all you like, but YOU are the one who is telling a woman that her emotions and feelings aren't allowed. Not me.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 8, 2006)

NFA said:


> You said you couldn't see the harm in subjectivity. I explained how some would see the harm. You don't have to agree, but this is how I feel. But disagreeing with me doesn't give you the right to lie and misrepresent me as a means of refuting me. I cannot respond to a post which did not respond to mine. Play witch hunt all you like, but YOU are the one who is telling a woman that her emotions and feelings aren't allowed. Not me.



That's rich, coming from you. I've yet to see an apology for your horrific misrepresentation of me.


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## eightyseven (Jun 8, 2006)

I'm not a moderator but guys... come on now. While we have full freedom to question and attack other people's views and opinions, let's not make thing personal. It's childish and ignorant because you're denying yourself the ability to learn more than you already do. Geez.


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## Jes (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *I thank you from the depths of my heart. That was so sweet of you to say.* :kiss2:


MG, if you DO go, you have to do it in true 'net/web style--get drunk first, then scream how you're leaving and you're never, ever, ever coming back! and then...like less than a week later, come back.



(don't go. I feel weird here, and elsewhere, too sometimes, but I think we maybe all do. Or those of us who have some acceptance thing going on, or something. I'm sure there are a few women here who simply never think: do i fit somewhere? because they feel they fit everywhere, damnit. I'm not always one of them. I don't leave anyway)


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess said:


> *I don't flounce. I don't play ball. And I am not dramatic. Right now I am a bit pissed.*



That's quite obvious. Some of us - a lot of us, actually - are trying to lighten the mood a bit and get you to see that nobody has expressed a desire for you to leave. It's up to you to recognize that -- or not. 

I'm done with this topic. Exit, stage left.


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## Santaclear (Jun 8, 2006)

This is a dumb topic, the categories are _moronic_ and lipmixgirl, I'm sorry but you brought it up in a divisive way. ("Can I get an amen?" - what are ya gonna do after that, mug skinnier women who think they're BBWs? Geez!)  

My last gf is 5'5", weighed around 190-200 and ALWAYS got crap from men about being too fat or whatever, and many of those men weren't slim themselves! If she wants to identify herself as a BBW (she fluctuates on whether she does) why should anyone who's bigger begrudge her that?


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## NFA (Jun 8, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> That's rich, coming from you. I've yet to see an apology for your horrific misrepresentation of me.



You lied. I pointed out that you lied. Seems like my position against liars has been quite consistant. You may want to wash away the company you kept, but those were your choices, not mine.


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## ripley (Jun 8, 2006)

Who needs reality TV drama when you've got Dims forums?


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## Mini (Jun 8, 2006)

ripley said:


> Who needs reality TV drama when you've got Dims forums?



Not enough sex for reality TV, unless I've been missing something.

Other than the sex, of course.


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini is the new black.


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## ripley (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> Not enough sex for reality TV, unless I've been missing something.
> 
> Other than the sex, of course.


 

On the contrary! We have a cybersex thread in the lounge and dickorations in the clubhouse. This place is lousy with sex if you know where to look.


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## Mini (Jun 8, 2006)

Carrie said:


> Mini is the new black.



Because I'm tall?

Or because I should be segregated?


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> Because I'm tall?
> 
> Or because I should be segregated?



You should be segregated, but not because you're tall. Or black. 

Because you're Canadian.









Disclaimer to Canadians: This was a joke. I love Canada. I also love ragging on Mini, so sometimes you'll take a blow in the interest of my doing that.


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## Mini (Jun 8, 2006)

So being a Canadian trumps being an asshole? Sweet!


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> So being a Canadian trumps being an asshole? Sweet!



Did you just call Donald Trump a sweet Canadian asshole?


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## eightyseven (Jun 8, 2006)

Thank you Mini, Carrie, and Ripley... this thread was getting annoying and needed some lively humor  YAY


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## Mini (Jun 8, 2006)

Carrie said:


> Did you just call Donald Trump a sweet Canadian asshole?



And how! He takes it harder than Ann Coulter.


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> And how! He takes it harder than Ann Coulter.



:bow: You win. THIS time, my sweet Canadian asshole. 

This time.


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## Mini (Jun 8, 2006)

Carrie said:


> :bow: You win. THIS time, my sweet Canadian asshole.
> 
> This time.



You do realise I'll ride this victory as far as it'll take me, right? We're talking WEEKS of you hearing about it. 

I'm petty like that.


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## JoyJoy (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> I'm pretty like that.


 
Yes! Yes, you are! Purrrr...


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

Mini said:


> You do realise I'll ride this victory as far as it'll take me, right? We're talking WEEKS of you hearing about it.
> 
> I'm petty like that.



Yes, but you totally earned it. I laughed, I cried. I might have orgasmed a little.


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## Carrie (Jun 8, 2006)

eightyseven said:


> Thank you Mini, Carrie, and Ripley... this thread was getting annoying and needed some lively humor  YAY



Oh, it's our pleasure, Ben. Whenever and wherever asinine humor is needed, the three of us will be there. We have a pact and everything.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (Jun 8, 2006)

MoonGoddess, don't leave. This place is for fat people and admirers. There is no dress size qualifier. You are a BBW and you belong here. 



MoonGoddess said:


> *Still trying to decide. Leaning towards leaving though.
> 
> Let's face it, in the grander scheme of things, one person is not going to be missed.*


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## Ericthonius (Jun 8, 2006)

Carrie said:


> Whenever and wherever asinine humor is needed, the three of us will be there. We have a pact and everything.




You'se guys should think of a name for this kind service you are required to perform. Like, '_Ghostbusters_', only something original.

(Oh and w/b Duchess :kiss2: I see that the ransom checque cleared.  )


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 8, 2006)

NFA said:


> You lied. I pointed out that you lied. Seems like my position against liars has been quite consistant. You may want to wash away the company you kept, but those were your choices, not mine.



You know what? You're a bully. And you're a liar. I absolutely know that I never threatened Marilyn, nor did I ever say an unkind word to her, nor did I do any of the shady things that you are insinuating I did. If you know something about my behavior that *I* don't know, why don't you come right out with it? Tell me EXACTLY what it is that I lied about, because you know, I'm confused. Better yet, why not haul Marilyn into this forum, since she seems to be such a pal of yours? Perhaps *she* can shed some light on what it is that I supposedly did.

Many of the former NAAFA posters are here as well. I'd invite any of them to speak, and tell me if I crossed any lines, made any enemies, said or did anything even vaguely approaching that (again, shady innuendo of activity) that you're accusing me of. 

I didn't keep ANY company, with exception to a few decent ladies who post here today, and I'm proud to call my friends. They've never had any problems with me. I don't believe that I've ever knowingly offended them, or hurt them in any way. 

NFA, it is *YOU* who are the liar -- or, at the very least, misguided. And how beneath contempt that you won't come out and directly SAY what it is I supposedly did -- no, you'll just attempt to smear my reputation with innuendo.

Bully.


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## Miss Vickie (Jun 8, 2006)

I know Traci quite well, and let me assure you that she's not a liar. She is a lovely woman, and I'm proud to call her friend.

And Moongoddess, don't go, honey. I need my pagan sisters as back up, 'k? Don't let one person's opinion make you turn your back on a place that gives you fun and support. You are wanted here. You're not just one person. You're you.


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## Aliena (Jun 8, 2006)

Yeahuuuppp, I've known Traci Jo for almost five-years and I haven't seen the first lie yet; nope. 

Traci is a genuine and kind lady, someone I'm proud to call a friend too. :wubu: 


As far as this topic is concerned, talk about your divide and conquer maneuver. :doh: 

I relish (mmmmm....relish) the day when a person is embraced upon their character, not thier dress size.


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## Miss Vickie (Jun 8, 2006)

Aliena said:


> As far as this topic is concerned, talk about your divide and conquer maneuver. :doh:
> 
> I relish (mmmmm....relish) the day when a person is embraced upon their character, not thier dress size.



True that -- the divide and conquer thing is really horrible. I hate that kind of crap. Oh but speaking of division? I think it's deplorable that you like relish. Have you no SHAME?????

Chutney's where it's at, baybee! 

(Seriously? About the character thing? Versus dress size? So true. I wish it, too).


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 8, 2006)

Dill relish is good. Sweet relish? I'd rather eat whole old people feet.


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## Miss Vickie (Jun 8, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Dill relish is good. Sweet relish? I'd rather eat whole old people feet.



Kommunist.


----------



## Aliena (Jun 8, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> True that -- the divide and conquer thing is really horrible. I hate that kind of crap. Oh but speaking of division? I think it's deplorable that you like relish. Have you no SHAME?????
> 
> Chutney's where it's at, baybee!
> 
> (Seriously? About the character thing? Versus dress size? So true. I wish it, too).




You know Miss Vickie, everytime I go into Cracker Barrel, I see a jar of chutney and find myself askin' the phatman, "phatman, what iz dat stuff?" 
I haven't been brave to buy it, because on the jar in large red letters is *"HOT!!!!"*. 

But yeah, I do love the relish, especially the sweet!:eat2:


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 8, 2006)

Yep, I'm the Deadvul Kommunist.


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## Aliena (Jun 8, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Dill relish is good. Sweet relish? I'd rather eat whole old people feet.




******SNORT*****View attachment spit.gif


Old peoples feet, now I'd rather have the sweet relish, me self. LoL


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## Jane (Jun 8, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Yep, I'm the Deadvul Kommunist.


I thought you were an immodest whore. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!!!

Moon, you just sit your narrow(er) hiney down. We will have no more of this leaving crap. Jane said so.

NFA, Tracey, I like you both. Now kiss and make up, or I'll make you sit in the corner and hug each other for 15 minutes. (Which may have been what they were after the entire time)

And yes, this is levity. (Insert snarky smilie-face sarcasm thingee here)


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 8, 2006)

Jane said:


> I thought you were an immodest whore. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!!!



NO! Instead I'm going to accuse you of hijacking and use this face (  ) until you want to scream.


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## Tina (Jun 9, 2006)

I posted on the NAAFA board beginning in August of 1998 (before Traci was there, I believe), and stopped posting there when they went to membership only boards. I recall seeing Traci there but didn't know her and never communicated with her off-board. I never -- as in, *never,* -- saw her cause any trouble whatsoever. What I did see was people objecting to the fact that she had WLS, but NFA to say the things about her that you have said, either you are the liar, or your memory is foggy on this. If someone has earned a reputation fairly, fine, but to try to ruin someone's reputation is just plain wrong, if that is what you are doing.

I think you need to stop making untrue claims about her, and I also believe you owe her a sincere apology.


----------



## Aliena (Jun 9, 2006)

You know, I have to come back to this because I got to thinking about your post NFA. I think you are out of line calling Traci Jo a liar and accusing her of being apart of a group that *ALLEGEDLY* threatened MW's life. 

I happen to know what group you are refering too and I also know that they never made such threats against MW. I also happen to know that the group hasn't been a group for over 2 years. On top of that knowledge, is the knowledge that Traci Jo was *NEVER* apart of that group. Your assumptions of stuff that happened almost three-years ago, is wrong and misguided. But then again, most of your posts are. 

And Tina is right, you owe Traci Jo an apology!!!


----------



## ripley (Jun 9, 2006)

Carrie said:


> Oh, it's our pleasure, Ben. Whenever and wherever asinine humor is needed, the three of us will be there. We have a pact and everything.




I can see it now...goats in hats, coming to a contentious thread near you.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 9, 2006)

Old people feet... hahahahahaha...


----------



## FitChick (Jun 9, 2006)

Jack Skellington said:


> I rarely get mad here and I am probably going to regret this.
> 
> But, never have I read a bigger pile of sanctimonious hypocritical bullshit.
> 
> ...




I. SO....agree.... with.....this.

And like you, this thread forced me to step away, calm down, and try to fight off the wide range of emotions that it provoked. It hits very very close to home for me. In fact it is the only thread in recent memory that has affected me like that.


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## FitChick (Jun 9, 2006)

Aliena said:


> You know, I have to come back to this because I got to thinking about your post NFA. I think you are out of line calling Traci Jo a liar and accusing her of being apart of a group that *ALLEGEDLY* threatened MW's life.
> 
> I happen to know what group you are refering too and I also know that they never made such threats against MW. I also happen to know that the group hasn't been a group for over 2 years. On top of that knowledge, is the knowledge that Traci Jo was *NEVER* apart of that group. Your assumptions of stuff that happened almost three-years ago, is wrong and misguided. But then again, most of your posts are.
> 
> And Tina is right, you owe Traci Jo an apology!!!



Juts a comment....I am a member of the NAAFA forums, have been for many years, and I retained membership (after they switched to member only forums), in them because I am a paying member of NAAFA.

I do not recall seeing Traci there. Not taking a stand one way or the other, just what I remember.


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## MoonGoddess (Jun 9, 2006)

*Back. But in lurking mode. Thanks for the support. All of you.*


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## dragorat (Jun 9, 2006)

*We each see ourselves in different ways than what others may see us.This does NOT mean that if we disagree we are neccessarily wrong.We each have our own visions of what big is & what beauty is.I'll admit I've seen some ladies here that I myself don't really concider BIG but from seeing them talk,I've grown to love them for their wit & wisdom.As several have said this site is about size acceptance.Yes it leans toward the bigger spectrum but we can ALL belong.MoonGoddess,I see no reason for you to leave.You are a welcome part of this large & at times disfunctional family Peace & love to all. *


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## crazygrad (Jun 9, 2006)

Who put that clash record on???

Crazygrad likes the clash. Crazygrad will listen to some in the car.

Crazygrad would like to apologize to Fitchick. The Fitchick has been lovely and positive in this thread. The crazygrad hopes she hasn't caused any offense to the fitchick- they can disagree, of course, but the crazygrad is sorry if she's been rude to the fitchick.

The crazygrad will stop talking like this.


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## Jes (Jun 9, 2006)

the crazygrad doesn't like her eggs runny!


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## FitChick (Jun 9, 2006)

crazygrad said:


> Who put that clash record on???
> 
> Crazygrad likes the clash. Crazygrad will listen to some in the car.
> 
> ...



Thank you, crazygrad, and now for a little secret:

Many of you wonder why I stuck around here, what with those who disliked what I say much of the time, etc.

THIS is the reason I stayed. I wanted to make sure that people did not think that because I lost weight, I no longer belonged in fat acceptance. In some ways I believe in it now more than ever.

I also wanted to remain a presence for the lower end BBWs (hey, my waist is still size 14 thanks to the loose skin, so I figure I still 'count'  ) One disturbing thing I've noticed: people seem to take my views on fat acceptance more seriously now that I'm not fat anymore....and many are shocked that I don't do the "I hate fat people now" thing.

All I have ever wanted from the time I first discovered fat/size acceptance, was to see women and men of ALL SIZES come together, and say ENOUGH! to a society that is determined to make people hate each other because of 200 or 5 lbs here or there.

As long as society marginalizes you for being "fat"..whether its 200 lbs "overweight" or 5 lbs, YOU BELONG HERE.


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## JoyJoy (Jun 9, 2006)

Talk about hostility. I know I'm going to regret this, but why in the hell are you dredging up things that happened years ago, and on another board? I'd wager to say that no one HERE really cares, as Traci HERE is a welcome, positive poster who has never caused a bit of trouble. You, on the other hand, from what I've seen, only post your militant viewpoints, which are usually pretty negative, bringing a negative vibe to these forums...and I now generally ignore you. True. untrue...I don't really care, and I'm betting not many others do either. In the immortal words of Dr. Evil:
"Let me tell you a little story about a man named Sh! Sh! even before you start. That was a pre-emptive "sh!" Now, I have a whole bag of "sh!" with your name on it. "


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## Jane (Jun 9, 2006)

I like them both, and I AM sitting them in the corner.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 9, 2006)

NFA, this is the last time I am going to say this. You are wrong. I am not who you are attempting to make me out to be.

For the last time, I have no quarrel with Marilyn, nor did I ever. I found her, in a one on one setting, to be pleasant and engaging -- even though I *did* disagree with her about some of her views. I read her book, and I enjoyed it. She has done very useful things for the SA movement. I especially appreciate that she brings an element of playfulness to much of what she is trying to accomplish. Some of her tactics are too militant for me. Yet as I have pointed out several times, I understand her reasoning, even if I cannot bring myself to agree with it. Bottom line? We're two mature adults, who cordially agreed to disagree.

And that brings me to my final point. I will not defend myself from your ridiculous charges about my so-called "allies". I haven't aligned myself politically with anyone. I don't engage in trollish internet behavior. Nor would I ever condone death threats or subterfuge. If you'd care to dig up some actual evidence to the contrary, rather than more of your hateful innuendo, I'd be very interested in seeing it. Otherwise, we truly do have nothing further to say to each other.


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## NFA (Jun 9, 2006)

JoyJoy said:


> Talk about hostility. I know I'm going to regret this, but why in the hell are you dredging up things that happened years ago, and on another board? I'd wager to say that no one HERE really cares, as Traci HERE is a welcome, positive poster who has never caused a bit of trouble. You, on the other hand, from what I've seen, only post your militant viewpoints, which are usually pretty negative, bringing a negative vibe to these forums...and I now generally ignore you. True. untrue...I don't really care, and I'm betting not many others do either. In the immortal words of Dr. Evil:
> "Let me tell you a little story about a man named Sh! Sh! even before you start. That was a pre-emptive "sh!" Now, I have a whole bag of "sh!" with your name on it. "



I didn't bring it up. Traci did for the purpose of attacking someone unfairly in service of her opposition to size acceptance. That demands a response and I don't feel the least bit sorry for responding. Even if this forum prefers a false civility where a privlaged few are allowed to trample on others, I cannot accept that. No amount of harassment will change that.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 9, 2006)

NFA said:


> Meanwhile, Traci's allies engaged in a campaign of extremist hate and violent fantasies.



Ohhhh, you're talking about that pesky snuff tape I made back in the 80's. Sheesh. You make ONE lousy mistake ... :doh:


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## MisticalMisty (Jun 9, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Ohhhh, you're talking about that pesky snuff tape I made back in the 80's. Sheesh. You make ONE lousy mistake ... :doh:


what the hell is that?


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 9, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Ohhhh, you're talking about that pesky snuff tape I made back in the 80's. Sheesh. You make ONE lousy mistake ... :doh:



Traci, whether or not you like it, two amputees are still TWO people.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 9, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> what the hell is that?



A snuff tape is a video of someone killing someone. It's usually kind of sexual in nature.


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## MisticalMisty (Jun 9, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> A snuff tape is a video of someone killing someone. It's usually kind of sexual in nature.


lol..thanks..I had no idea..I'm so sheltered


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 9, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> what the hell is that?



Just a bit of ridicule, Misty. I'm not sure how to defend myself against such outlandish charges & rather than allowing myself to get upset about them, I'd rather poke fun of them. 

And if you don't like it, well ... I have ways of making my enemies disappear


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 9, 2006)

Here's the Wiki on it, Misty Missy.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 9, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Traci, whether or not you like it, two amputees are still TWO people.



::: weary sigh :::

We've been over this before, SL. We're never going to agree -- so, like the mature adults we are, let's just agree to DISAGREE, ok?!?!?!


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jun 9, 2006)

Fair enough. Come on over. This time YOU bring the lotion.


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## crazygrad (Jun 9, 2006)

the crazygrad doesn't like eggs.

the crazygrad advises against showing a snuff film to 3rd graders.


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## MisticalMisty (Jun 9, 2006)

TraciJo67 said:


> Misty, I should preface by saying that I don't know Marilyn personally. I had a few email exchanges with her. In my communication with her, she was courteous - but perhaps a bit deliberately obtuse. I believe that she and I probably feel similarly about size acceptance, but I question some of her methods (although again - I do understand them; she's an in-your-face activist, and I have no doubt that her loyalties are entirely with the size acceptance movement).
> 
> I used to post on the NAAFA board. Without going into the (boring & tired) drama, I will just say that I disagreed with the "flabulously fit at any size" mantra. It wasn't my experience. I was suffering from health & mobility problems directly related to my weight. I felt that some people within Marilyn's "inner circle" were quite hostile to those of us who live a different experience.
> 
> I believe that the SA movement should encompass everyone, not just those of us who are fat & happy & healthy (or at some point in that journey). I'm not going to elaborate, because I feel like I'm derailing the point of this thread. Besides, I have a feeling we've all been down this road before. Many times



Nowhere in this statement does Traci attack Marilyn. She stated her opinion and her experiences. So to say that she started things by attacking Marilyn is totally unfair and totally uncalled for.

I asked Traci what her opinion was..ME I brought it up. I realize that these things are very personal experiences to you NFA and that you have been subjected to similiar things you've accused TraciJo of..but you can't just come here and attack someone with no rhyme or reason other than memories and expect people not to get pissed at you. You've gotta give evidence to back up you claims..if not..they are just baseless claims that appear to be a vicious, unwarrented attack on someone's character.

I'm offically done with this topic. It never should have gotten this far. I had second thoughts about asking Traci that question in public and obviously I should have trusted my gut and did it in private. Traci, I'm really sorry you've had to go thru this bullshit. This is indeed a case where curiousity killed the cat..LOL


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## JoyJoy (Jun 9, 2006)

NFA said:


> I didn't bring it up. Traci did for the purpose of attacking someone unfairly in service of her opposition to size acceptance. That demands a response and I don't feel the least bit sorry for responding. Even if this forum prefers a false civility where a privlaged few are allowed to trample on others, I cannot accept that. No amount of harassment will change that.


 
And this proves my point. You seem to be the type who simply MUST respond to every injustice with your own brand of hostility, making yourself some kind of superhero for speaking out. Your brand of response, even if you do have a point, is quite off-putting and frankly quite boring. I'm not just talking about in this instance, but in general, since I've been seeing your posts on these forums. When I read your posts, I imagine you looking as if you just tasted a lemon. 

As for false civility....if you are referring to the way some people are able to disagree with each other and have fun around here without resorting to accusations and vitriol, I vote for "false civility" over your brand of confrontation any day. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but I have to say I feel sorry for people who seem to go through life with an unending supply of chips on their shoulder. 

Again...I don't care what TraciJo might or might not have done years ago on another forum. Seems to me if you have a personal beef with her, it would be best to take it private. As it is, you come across as the one in the wrong for your campaign against her here. You yourself aren't doing anything for the "size acceptance movement" by bringing your negativity here.


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## Tina (Jun 9, 2006)

NFA, my memory is just fine, NFA, it is yours that is lacking. I'm warning you now to cease and desist in these false claims. I will not allow you to slander one of our members or open Conrad up to possible legal action. This thread is closed.


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