# Back from the doctor..Depression and me update



## bexy (Nov 30, 2007)

*it went well. i managed to stay composed to the most part and tell him all of the horrible symptoms i have been suffering.

he was horrified i had left it so long to come and see him, and said that i was the worst he had ever seen me.

he was initially reluctant to change my anti depressant, as he wanted to get my anxiety calmed down first. i insisted, as i already have not taken my old meds for 2 days and dont want to waste anymore time on them.

he is referring me back to my consultant pyschiatrist and said he would rather the psych make the decision bout my meds, as he was stuck between 2 and didnt know which one to choose.

i asked what the 2 were and when he said cymbalta or effexor i vetoed effexor immediately, having been on it before for 2 weeks and feeling like i was dying the entire time, so i said he might as well just try me on the cymbalta and he agreed.

so i am starting 60mg a day cymbalta as of tomorrow, have been put off work with a doctors note for 2 weeks, have to go back and see my doc same time next week, he has given me valium to try to calm me, and has asked for an emergency pysch appointment.

thanks to everyone who showed me their love and concern it meant the world to me, i feel more reassured now i know some action is being taken to make me start to feel better again and i will keep u guys updated.

thanks

luv bexy xo*


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## Friday (Nov 30, 2007)

Hang in there kiddo.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Nov 30, 2007)

Hugs honey, hope you feel better very soon!


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 30, 2007)

It's a weight off your shoulders just knowing that the ball is rolling and something is being done. Good for you finally getting seen. Take it easy and just let whatever happens happen.

(((((bexy)))))


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## Sweet_Serenade (Nov 30, 2007)

Agreed with Lilly, at least things are going somewhere.

Hope you feel better soon, I really wish you the best of luck.
Hang in there, gorgeous.


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## bexy (Nov 30, 2007)

*thank you to everyone above for ur encouragement its really appreciated 

xox*


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## mossystate (Dec 2, 2007)

bexy..keep putting that one foot in front of the other..*s*

Sorry if you have already mentioned it, but, are you getting help with the anxiety ( other than medication )? I have a program ( 15 CD's and a workbook ) that, when I actually DO the work , has helped . People who have full blown panic attacks have found it very useful. Again, sorry if you have addressed this.....take good care.


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## bexy (Dec 2, 2007)

mossystate said:


> bexy..keep putting that one foot in front of the other..*s*
> 
> Sorry if you have already mentioned it, but, are you getting help with the anxiety ( other than medication )? I have a program ( 15 CD's and a workbook ) that, when I actually DO the work , has helped . People who have full blown panic attacks have found it very useful. Again, sorry if you have addressed this.....take good care.


*
hey mossy, the only help really for the anxiety is the tranquilizers at present, im assuming when i go back to my psych he will refer me to a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist again, they help with panic/anxiety. I have tried it before and hated it but this time will be a different person taking me as i have moved, so will certainly try again.

what is the program? i will be honest, i have tried stuff before, hypnotherapy etc, which works to an extent but when my depression is bad, or my anxiety very heightened i find it difficult to even speak so trying to do exercises recommended to me i do find difficult.

that said i would very much appreciate if you would tell me more so i can look into it, and thanks so much for ur reply and concern 

bexy xo*


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## Suze (Dec 2, 2007)

hope your situation will progress in a positive direction 

Wish you well
-Susie


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## Max_C (Dec 23, 2007)

bexylicious said:


> *
> hey mossy, the only help really for the anxiety is the tranquilizers at present, im assuming when i go back to my psych he will refer me to a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist again, they help with panic/anxiety. I have tried it before and hated it but this time will be a different person taking me as i have moved, so will certainly try again.
> 
> what is the program? i will be honest, i have tried stuff before, hypnotherapy etc, which works to an extent but when my depression is bad, or my anxiety very heightened i find it difficult to even speak so trying to do exercises recommended to me i do find difficult.
> ...



HI Bexy. I'm brand new to the board. Just joined a few minutes and and started browsing around when I found your post. I hope I'm not crossing any lines by making suggestions in my first post... but nutrition and how it relates to the function of the human body is something I've been passionate about for a long time.

First of all, I want you to know that I understand that I know nothing about you or the things you may have gone through. I won't pretend (as many psychiatrists will) to know everything going on in your mind after hearing you speak for 30 minutes. I will simply focus on what you may be able to do nutritionally if you wish to wean yourself off the drugs. 

I'm curious to know if your doctor has asked any questions about your diet or made any recommendations about it before putting you on drugs. If not, find another doctor.

There are several things that can be done to naturally improve depression symptoms if you're willing to give them a shot. The first thing that comes to mind is increasing your vitamin D intake. It's no coincidence that depression goes up during times of less sunlight. You can increase vitamin D intake with a high quality cod liver oil. I know it sounds gross, but there are several flavored oils on the market that don't taste bad at all. Probably the best tasting is Carlson's Lemon flavored. You can get CLO in capsules, but you'll pay about 4 times as much. Also, CLO isn't something you want to get the cheapest of. The cheap stuff is poorly processed and usually rancid. Not healthy at all.

You also need to make sure you're not eating a low fat diet. Not only are low fat diets associated with weight gain, they also don't supply you with all the fat soluble vitamins your body needs to keep you happy. Vitamins A, D, E and K and all fat soluble vitamins.

If you're on any cholesterol lowering statin drugs, get off of them ASAP. Cholesterol is *SUPPOSED* to be in your body. It's the building block of practically all hormones... including those that keep you happy.

Anyway, I could go on and on, but this kind of stuff may not interest you. If it does, feel free to ask some questions and I'll be happy to answer.

Take care.
Max.


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## Friday (Dec 24, 2007)

Don't know where you got your medical degree Max_C, but those of us that are on cholesterol lowering drugs are on them because our cholesterol is high enough to threaten our health, not as some kind of diet aid. I watched my grandmother go through not one but two multiple bypass surgeries and it's not an experience I want to try. I'm not thrilled by the idea of dying of a heart attack at 55 like my Dad either. 

I think your bias against low fat diets has a personal motivation but I'll just let it go at saying that cutting back on the bad for you saturated fats found in animal products is not going to make you gain weight although it'll probably get you a healthier heart and vascular system. Trying to cut the good fats out of your diet would be foolish and counter productive.


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## moore2me (Dec 24, 2007)

*I second Friday's advice. If your physician has prescribed cholesterol medication for you, do not get off it until she (or he) tells you to.* If you are concerned about adding fats, pick ones that are more heart friendly like fish oils (from salmon, etc. the omega 3's), canola oil (from plants), or olive oil. 

It is easy and free to add Vitamin D - go outside in the sun for 15-20 minutes a day. No sunscreen. Let parts of your skin do what nature intended it to do. Exposure your arms, face, legs, etc. Don't overdo because of skin cancer risk at higher levels of UV.

Take 2 multi-vitamins every day if you are double the average person's body weight. 

Eat a variety of foods. Eat a variety of *colors* of fruits and vegetables. 
Eat whole grain products - bread, macaroni, etc.


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## bexy (Dec 24, 2007)

*thank u for all of the replies, im not on any other meds other than cymbalta and valium at present.

my diet has never come into question really, the fact that i have had this for 10 years would lead to believe that whilst a change in diet may help somewhat, it certainly would not change anything dramatically..


as it is im starting to perk up a little bit, still having side effects that are bad, but mood is lifting somewhat so thank u to everybody *


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## IwannabeVERYfat (Dec 24, 2007)

hope you feel better soon Bexy


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## CrankySpice (Dec 24, 2007)

Hi Bexi,

Glad to hear the new meds are starting to take some effect, that is awesome news. Hopefully the side effects will subside with time. 

Hugs,
Pey


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## love dubh (Dec 24, 2007)

+1 to Friday's and M2M's comments. Max, you do not have a medical degree, and if you do, it's very unprofessional of you to undermine another doctor's orders for their patient when you know nothing of their condition. 

About low-fat diets: Don't buy into those low-fat low-sugar schemes. They're filled with all sorts of crap, binding agents, artificial sweeteners, etc. Instead, have fewer of the real thing. Also, dark chocolate is supposed to be an antioxidant and have other helpful qualities, so a small bit of quality dark chocolate could help instead of a lot of crap imitation chocolate.

Conrad has mentioned before that, to stave off his depression, he goes for a run. You should look into some physical activity, to get your happy-making chemicals elevated. Perhaps dancing? If only in your own living room while vacuuming. And pets! Pets help too. Get one


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 24, 2007)

The only person who should be making recommendations about Bexy's medication is her doctor. And yes you are supposed to have some cholesterol, but there are health levels of it, and *doctors* prescribe statins if your levels are too high. That is like saying that sugar is supposed to be in your body so don't take insulin. It's assinine, plain and simple.

I abhor this pendulum swing against psychoative drugs. It seems now there's this backlash against them which simultaneously promotes the idea that you don't *really* need them if you just enact certain lifestyle changes. It is not a matter of strength and/or willpower to try to stay off of medication if you truly need it.

Depression is not just somebody being in a bad mood. While many lifestyle changes (by which I mean food, exercise, environment) can affect mood, they generally don't affect chemical imbalances in the brain. If Bexy's doctor, who is actually the one treating her, says she should be on these drugs than she should be.


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## love dubh (Dec 24, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> The only person who should be making recommendations about Bexy's medication is her doctor. And yes you are supposed to have some cholesterol, but there are health levels of it, and *doctors* prescribe statins if your levels are too high. That is like saying that sugar is supposed to be in your body so don't take insulin. It's assinine, plain and simple.
> 
> I abhor this pendulum swing against psychoative drugs. It seems now there's this backlash against them which simultaneously promotes the idea that you don't *really* need them if you just enact certain lifestyle changes. It is not a matter of strength and/or willpower to try to stay off of medication if you truly need it.
> 
> Depression is not just somebody being in a bad mood. While many lifestyle changes (by which I mean food, exercise, environment) can affect mood, they generally don't affect chemical imbalances in the brain. If Bexy's doctor, who is actually the one treating her, says she should be on these drugs than she should be.



Hey. If Tom Cruise says it, it's gotta be true.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 24, 2007)

love dubh said:


> Hey. If Tom Cruise says it, it's gotta be true.



I have dead space aliens living in my body?

Awesome.

Hey, Xenu's hungry, I gotta troll around for some Christmas cookies.


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## Friday (Dec 24, 2007)

Living with Tom Cruise would be depressing I think.

Bexy however has a cute, sane honey who think's she's the cat's meow.


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## Miss Vickie (Dec 24, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> The only person who should be making recommendations about Bexy's medication is her doctor. And yes you are supposed to have some cholesterol, but there are health levels of it, and *doctors* prescribe statins if your levels are too high. That is like saying that sugar is supposed to be in your body so don't take insulin. It's assinine, plain and simple.
> 
> I abhor this pendulum swing against psychoative drugs. It seems now there's this backlash against them which simultaneously promotes the idea that you don't *really* need them if you just enact certain lifestyle changes. It is not a matter of strength and/or willpower to try to stay off of medication if you truly need it.
> 
> Depression is not just somebody being in a bad mood. While many lifestyle changes (by which I mean food, exercise, environment) can affect mood, they generally don't affect chemical imbalances in the brain. If Bexy's doctor, who is actually the one treating her, says she should be on these drugs than she should be.



I agree. Telling someone to go off statins is a BAD idea. Now I may disagree philosophically with the rush to put people on statin drugs at the first hint of high cholesterol (levels which were considered safe only 10 years ago) but I'd never suggest anyone go off them once on them. Sometimes people can go off them, yes, but that's only done safely with a doctor's recommendation. 

I'm still not clear what the link is between statin drugs and depression. I musta missed that lecture in nursing school. I understand the link between hormones and cholesterol but I think your cholesterol level would have to be pretty damn low to affect hormone production, wouldn't it?

And as for "Doctor" Tom Cruise? He can kiss my ass.


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## Max_C (Dec 26, 2007)

Friday said:


> Don't know where you got your medical degree Max_C, but those of us that are on cholesterol lowering drugs are on them because our cholesterol is high enough to threaten our health, not as some kind of diet aid. I watched my grandmother go through not one but two multiple bypass surgeries and it's not an experience I want to try. I'm not thrilled by the idea of dying of a heart attack at 55 like my Dad either.
> 
> I think your bias against low fat diets has a personal motivation but I'll just let it go at saying that cutting back on the bad for you saturated fats found in animal products is not going to make you gain weight although it'll probably get you a healthier heart and vascular system. Trying to cut the good fats out of your diet would be foolish and counter productive.



I have no motivation except to help people get out from under the heavy, ill informed hand of the drug companies. I also have no medical degree. What I have learned is just what I have taught myself in order to prevent from happening to me what happened to both sets of my grandparents.

I have no bias for or against any diet. I have only what I have come to know as the truth about food in general from extremely in depth study over the past 8 years. To sum up the last 8 years of my food study, eat as close to natural as possible. Low fat cookies... soy based "health foods"... refined ANYTHING... processed anything... all bad for you. 

If you take the time to step back from what we've all been taught about a proper diet, you start to realize that a lot of it makes no sense whatsoever. For example, nature's most perfect food for a human is mother's breast milk. No other food on the planet is specifically designed to give proper health to a human. When you analyze mother's breast milk, what do you find? Loads of cholesterol and saturated fat. So what, you might ask, takes place in our bodies to make cholesterol and saturated fat go from essential life-giving nutrients to deliverers of death? The answer is, nothing... because it doesn't happen. Cholesterol and saturated fat as just as healthy for you now as when you were a baby.

I know, I know... I'm going to get blasted off this board for saying that, but the data is out there. Take this article for example:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E2D61F3EF934A35754C0A9649C8B63&sec=health

Gary Taubes, the author of that article, has recently released an incredible book based on his past 6 or so years of in depth study. The book is titled "Good Calories, Bad Calories." He digs deeper into the subject of the low fat myth than anyone I've ever seen... and backs up all of his data with references that are easily checked... hundreds of them, in fact.

To implicate cholesterol in heart disease is akin to implicating fire fighters at the scene of a burning building. You may say "Every time I see a burning building, I see those pesky fire fighters. They must be causing all the fires." Such is the case with cholesterol. Cholesterol is not only there to help, it's IMPERATIVE that your body has all it needs to do the jobs that need to get done. Cholesterol is a repairman. The body produces what it needs. It's long been known that if you don't eat enough cholesterol but your body still needs it, the body will just increase production to meet demand. If your cholesterol is high, the *FIRST* thing that needs to be done is to figure out why your body needs so much repair. Drugs should be the last choice.

In addition to being a repairman, cholesterol is the building block used to build all kinds of hormones. If you artificially decrease your body's ability to produce cholesterol, you're also decreasing its ability to produce much needed hormones of all kinds.

I've lost count of how many people I've helped get off of statin drugs. I can tell you this, it wasn't by recommending a low fat diet in ANY of those cases. Also, without exception, when those people went back to their doctors and said "Yes, my cholesterol readings *are* normal... but I haven't been taking my drugs" not one single doctor asked "How did you do it?" Most doctors are not educated in, nor want to know about, healing through nutrition. In fact, in 1991, out of 122 universities in the US where one could become a doctor, only 27 of them required even ONE class in nutrition. The rest were all surgery and drugs.

Also along the lines of common sense are comparisons of ourselves to other mammals. We have digestive tracts similar to many animals... bears being among them. Bears are omnivores just like us. Percentage length of various parts of the digestive tract are somewhat similar. When you look at the diet of bears, you won't find low-fat. In fact, when a bear makes a kill, they immediately go for the fattiest parts... the fat around the heart, the liver, the kidneys.

Traditional Eskimos (not the Eskimos of today or even 50 years ago) had very little heart disease, if any at all... yet their diets consisted of up to 80% fat.

See, here's the thing. The US has been pushing low fat more and more, and yet we're fatter than ever. Sure, part of that is because we're eating more. (I remember being floored the first time I saw a 100 oz fountain drink.) However, we're also excluding fat soluble vitamins when we eat low fat... vitamins which our bodies need in abundance. Vitamins A, D, E and K all come from fat, and not coincidentally are the same vitamins that feed the thyroid and pituitary. So, eating a low fat diet starves the very organs that are responsible for body weight regulation.

I could literally go on all day on this subject, but I'll stop here. I assume some people will read this with some interest. Others will read it and become infuriated with me. That's OK. I hope I've planted a seed so that the next time you hear this, you'll think twice. I would also welcome the opportunity to open the subject up for friendly discussion and debate. I'm not interested in a flame war. I'm still learning, just like most others. I'm open to the chance to learn from others... but when it comes to low fat diets and cholesterol drugs, I've yet to find anyone that can show me the benefits of either. Neither extend life, and there is evidence surfacing that says both decrease quality of life. In the case of statin drugs, you *MAY* lower you chance of heart attack by some ridiculously small amount, but you increase your risk of death by other causes.

Max.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2007)

> If you take the time to step back from what we've all been taught about a proper diet, you start to realize that a lot of it makes no sense whatsoever. For example, nature's most perfect food for a human is mother's breast milk. No other food on the planet is specifically designed to give proper health to a human. When you analyze mother's breast milk, what do you find? Loads of cholesterol and saturated fat. So what, you might ask, takes place in our bodies to make cholesterol and saturated fat go from essential life-giving nutrients to deliverers of death? The answer is, nothing... because it doesn't happen. Cholesterol and saturated fat as just as healthy for you now as when you were a baby.



Mother's breast milk is intended to feed *infants.* The nutritional needs of an infant are not the same as those of a grown human.

You also miss the point that everyone gets that the human body needs some cholesterol. Like with many vitamins and other components, there are health levels and unhealthy levels. It's even possible to drink too much water, and water is an essential building block of life.

Also, fat and cholesterol are not the same thing. You could eat a very high fat diet and if none of it came from animal sources, you would consume no cholesterol. If you so chose, you could eat nothing but olive oil, peanut butter and avocado. That would be all fat but no cholesterol.

Lastly, fat soluble vitamins don't "come from" fat. The fact that something is STORED in body fat doesn't mean you get that vitamin from fat. Carrots are a great source of Vitamin A, and they don't have fat. Sunshine is a great source of Vitamn D, also...no fat.


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## Max_C (Dec 26, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> I agree. Telling someone to go off statins is a BAD idea. Now I may disagree philosophically with the rush to put people on statin drugs at the first hint of high cholesterol (levels which were considered safe only 10 years ago) but I'd never suggest anyone go off them once on them. Sometimes people can go off them, yes, but that's only done safely with a doctor's recommendation.
> 
> I'm still not clear what the link is between statin drugs and depression. I musta missed that lecture in nursing school. I understand the link between hormones and cholesterol but I think your cholesterol level would have to be pretty damn low to affect hormone production, wouldn't it?
> 
> And as for "Doctor" Tom Cruise? He can kiss my ass.



hhmmm.... I had already posted one reply that has yet to make it to the board. Perhaps there has been a blanket "non-approval" status put on my account. If so, you won't see this reply, either... anyway.

To answer your question, ANY artificial means of lowering cholesterol production will affect hormone production. Cholesterol is so important, many of our cells have the ability to produce it themselves. If the body is busy using cholesterol for repairing damage from an unhealthy environment, levels are going to rise naturally... because cholesterol is needed.

I've read study after study claiming that statins improve health. In every single one I've researched, the benefits are : negligible, come with worse side effects, exaggerated or are a downright lie. Let me show you what I mean.

Let's say a study uses 2 groups of 1,000 people. The first is the control group and gets no statins. The second is the statin group. After 1 year, they find that the control group had 3 cases of Myocardial Infarction and the statin group had 2 cases. This would be all that's needed to advertise that statins lowered cases of heart attack by 50%... because the difference between 3 and 2 is 1 and 1 is 50% of 2. Most people think "Wow... 50 percent!!! That's HUGE!" Well, as you can see in this example, 50% is statistically irrelevant. 

If you look at the real data rather than listening to and trusting other people, you find that the heart disease rates are no different for people with a cholesterol level of 200 versus those with 250. When you get above 250, heart disease rates *do* tend to climb ever so slightly, but once again, you don't see much difference between those at 260 and those at 300.

I'm reminded of this cute little cartoon that entertains while driving home the point of the cholesterol myth.

http://www.mercola.com/townofallopath/tuttle.htm

The recent reduction in the recommended levels of total cholesterol had no foundation in science. No matter how true anyone *wants* it to be, artificially reducing cholesterol levels only increases the risk of death by some other means. Stroke, cancer, suicide.... they all tend to trend upwards when statins are taken on a regular basis. I have seen some meta-analysis studies done to find out if that statement is true. Some claim it is not true. However, upon further research, I've found every one of them to have massaged the numbers to favor the statins. Individuals were systematically eliminated from the meta-analysis that didn't find the preconceived desires of those doing the meta-analysis, thus skewing the results of the meta-analysis.

If you haven't thoroughly dug in to both sides of the cholesterol debate, you really haven't seen the tip of the ice burg on cholesterol. Here's a good start:

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

1 Cholesterol is not a deadly poison, but a substance vital to the cells of all mammals. There are no such things as good or bad cholesterol, but mental stress, physical activity and change of body weight may influence the level of blood cholesterol. A high cholesterol is not dangerous by itself, but may reflect an unhealthy condition, or it may be totally innocent.

2 A high blood cholesterol is said to promote atherosclerosis and thus also coronary heart disease. But many studies have shown that people whose blood cholesterol is low become just as atherosclerotic as people whose cholesterol is high.

3 Your body produces three to four times more cholesterol than you eat. The production of cholesterol increases when you eat little cholesterol and decreases when you eat much. This explains why the prudent diet cannot lower cholesterol more than on average a few per cent.

4 There is no evidence that too much animal fat and cholesterol in the diet promotes atherosclerosis or heart attacks. For instance, more than twenty studies have shown that people who have had a heart attack haven't eaten more fat of any kind than other people, and degree of atherosclerosis at autopsy is unrelated with the diet.

5 The only effective way to lower cholesterol is with drugs, but neither heart mortality or total mortality have been improved with drugs the effect of which is cholesterol-lowering only. On the contrary, these drugs are dangerous to your health and may shorten your life.

6 The new cholesterol-lowering drugs, the statins, do prevent cardio-vascular disease, but this is due to other mechanisms than cholesterol-lowering. Unfortunately, they also stimulate cancer in rodents, disturb the functions of the muscles, the heart and the brain and pregnant women taking statins may give birth to children with malformations more severe than those seen after thalidomide.

7 Many of these facts have been presented in scientific journals and books for decades but are rarely told to the public by the proponents of the diet-heart idea. 

8 The reason why laymen, doctors and most scientists have been misled is because opposing and disagreeing results are systematically ignored or misquoted in the scientific press. 

9 The Benefits Of High Cholesterol

Each one of those points is accompanied by a link to data backing the claim if you'll click on the link above.

I'm not posting this to categorically change anyone's mind. This is just to give you a chance to see that information on the subject of cholesterol is FAR, FAAAAAAR from unanimous... and the data backing the other side is significant, and growing every day.

Max.


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## Friday (Dec 26, 2007)

Max, I'm not the least bit angry that you're horribly misinformed, that's your problem. I am however disgusted that you attempt to promote that misinformation. As LoveBMHS pointed out, there are NO VITAMINS IN FAT. Some vitamins are indeed stored in and transported by fat, but they don't come in the fat itself. All fat soluble vitamins can be easily stored and transported in healthy fats just as easily as saturated and trans fats.

Touting breast milk as a 'perfect food' is laughable. Not only is a large percentage of the world's population lactose intolerant by adulthood, but it would be impossible to produce enough breast milk to sustain a population large enough to stave off extinction for any length of time. How long do you think an adult human could survive on approximately 2 ozs of milk every 2 hours and nothing else? One woman can produce enough milk to feed one or perhaps two babies for a very short period of time. The reason we start feeding them other things is because they need other food sources to continue living. Did you think that you stumbled on some strange natural law that both sentient beings and Mother Nature had missed for countless centuries?

Anything beneficial done to excess can become fatal. As Love BHMS pointed, without water we die, but to much of it will kill you by water intoxication. That cholesterol/fireman analogy you tried to use? Senseless, unless the fireman you mentioned are in the burning building trying to cut off the water supply.


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## Max_C (Dec 26, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> Mother's breast milk is intended to feed *infants.* The nutritional needs of an infant are not the same as those of a grown human.



If you would care to go into the exact physiological and biological changes that take place in the human body between the time cholesterol and saturated fat is good for us to when it's bad for us, I'd be interested to know about them.



> You also miss the point that everyone gets that the human body needs some cholesterol. Like with many vitamins and other components, there are health levels and unhealthy levels. It's even possible to drink too much water, and water is an essential building block of life.



I'm not sure how you think I "miss the point" when the foundation of my position is that your body needs cholesterol to survive. To use your analogy, there are unhealthy LOW levels of cholesterol, which some data shows the medical establishment is artificially driving Americans into. If American doctors know so much about good health, then why do Americans spend tens to hundreds of times as much on health care as other nations and regularly come no where neat the top for healthiest population or longest lived?

http://foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4025

Look at that. Cuba's population is considered healthier than the US's. And while most people will say "Well the Japanese eat a low fat diet" it's simply not true among their most elderly. They eat a LOT of pork, and practically every part of the pig. There's a saying in Japan that says more or less "Eat everything but the oink." That means PLENTY of saturated fat.



> Also, fat and cholesterol are not the same thing. You could eat a very high fat diet and if none of it came from animal sources, you would consume no cholesterol. If you so chose, you could eat nothing but olive oil, peanut butter and avocado. That would be all fat but no cholesterol.



I don't think anyone has argued this point. Perhaps you're just inserting it for completeness?



> Lastly, fat soluble vitamins don't "come from" fat. The fact that something is STORED in body fat doesn't mean you get that vitamin from fat. Carrots are a great source of Vitamin A, and they don't have fat. Sunshine is a great source of Vitamn D, also...no fat.



Well, if you want to get REALLY technical, carrots do NOT contain an active form of vitamin A. They contain Beta Carotene. A properly functioning body then converts beta carotene into retinol, the active, usable form of vitamin A.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/beta-carotene-000286.htm

Sunshine also contains no vitamin D. Ulraviolet rays from the sun react with oil on the skin.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Vitamin-D...-Properties-Of-The-Sunshine-Vitamin&id=649640

If you really want to be blown away about heart disease and how what you think you know may not be true, I highly recommend this article.
http://www.fourfoldhealing.com/NL NovDec 2005.htm#Focus

Max.


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## Max_C (Dec 26, 2007)

Friday said:


> Max, I'm not the least bit angry that you're horribly misinformed, that's your problem. I am however disgusted that you attempt to promote that misinformation. As LoveBMHS pointed out, there are NO VITAMINS IN FAT. Some vitamins are indeed stored in and transported by fat, but they don't come in the fat itself. All fat soluble vitamins can be easily stored and transported in healthy fats just as easily as saturated and trans fats.



Rather than just telling me I'm horribly misinformed, it would be more beneficial to everyone to explain to me, using references I can look up, how I'm wrong. For example, it would be helpful to explain how one would *naturally* obtain fat soluble vitamins without eating fat. You clearly state "there are NO VITAMINS IN FAT" so how would one obtain natural vitamins A, D, E and K while simultaneously avoiding fat?



> Touting breast milk as a 'perfect food' is laughable.



So, what other food is more perfectly suited to a new born infant?



> Not only is a large percentage of the world's population lactose intolerant by adulthood, but it would be impossible to produce enough breast milk to sustain a population large enough to stave off extinction for any length of time.



Would you happen to have some references I could research on the number of lactose intolerant people in the world's population? Because, you see, in my personal experience, over 90% of "lactose intolerant" people are actually just pasteurized milk intolerant. You put them on clean, raw milk with all of its enzymes intact and they can drink milk again.



> How long do you think an adult human could survive on approximately 2 ozs of milk every 2 hours and nothing else? One woman can produce enough milk to feed one or perhaps two babies for a very short period of time. The reason we start feeding them other things is because they need other food sources to continue living. Did you think that you stumbled on some strange natural law that both sentient beings and Mother Nature had missed for countless centuries?



In the debating world, this is what's known as strawman. I never said, nor would have ever implied that the world should subsist on nothing but breast milk. You're arguing a point I never made. That's poor debating tactics.



> Anything beneficial done to excess can become fatal. As Love BHMS pointed, without water we die, but to much of it will kill you by water intoxication.



Completely agree. My point is that I believe the current recommended cholesterol levels are closer to the dangerously low side.



> That cholesterol/fireman analogy you tried to use? Senseless, unless the fireman you mentioned are in the burning building trying to cut off the water supply.



So, in your analogy, what supply is the cholesterol trying to cut off? Blood supply, perhaps? Not even close. As you can see in the article I posted in my previous reply, the vessels around the heart are so dynamic that if blood supply begins to decrease flowing in to the heart, many new, smaller vessels will rapidly grow to increase flow. If you missed the article, here it is again:

http://www.fourfoldhealing.com/NL NovDec 2005.htm#Focus

Pay particularly close attention to the section on blockage measured in hours *after* death.

Max.


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## SoVerySoft (Dec 26, 2007)

Max_C said:


> hhmmm.... I had already posted one reply that has yet to make it to the board. Perhaps there has been a blanket "non-approval" status put on my account. If so, you won't see this reply, either... anyway...




Max, posts by new members very often go into moderated status for approval. It wasn't anything to do with you personally. Just wanted you to know that.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 26, 2007)

> how would one obtain natural vitamins A, D, E and K while simultaneously avoiding fat?



Well, since Vitamin D is available in sunshine, you could go outside. Sunshine doesn't have any fat.

Nobody has said that cholesterol is not present or should not be present in a healthy body. Again, what we've all said repeatedly is there are healthy and unhealthy levels of it. Its total absense is a health hazard, as is too much of it.



> So, what other food is more perfectly suited to a new born infant?



Breast milk is suited to newborn infants, not to adults. As Friday said, many humans are lactose intolerant as they get older, not as babies.



> If you would care to go into the exact physiological and biological changes that take place in the human body between the time cholesterol and saturated fat is good for us to when it's bad for us, I'd be interested to know about them


.

Ok. Babies are growing and their bodies have nutritional needs geared toward developing the body into a grown human. Adults are not. The life systems of babies are in developmental stages; the same is not true for adults.




> And while most people will say "Well the Japanese eat a low fat diet" it's simply not true among their most elderly. They eat a LOT of pork, and practically every part of the pig. There's a saying in Japan that says more or less "Eat everything but the oink." That means PLENTY of saturated fat.



You really bring the wrong, dude. The idea that anyone eats "a lot" of something is debatable. The Japanese diet, like most Asian diets, uses meat as more of a flavor than a staple, and it's a smaller overall percentage of the diet. The "everything but the oink" is just...laughable. Please site on instance of elderly Japanese eating pig snouts or ears.


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## Risible (Dec 26, 2007)

Folks, please remember this is the Health Forum, and this thread was started by Bexy to update us on a topic important to her. Please respect that this is not Hyde Park here and save your rhetoric for that venerable forum. 

Thank you!

/mod


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## bexy (Dec 26, 2007)

Friday said:


> Living with Tom Cruise would be depressing I think.
> 
> Bexy however has a cute, sane honey who think's she's the cat's meow.



*i cant rep u for that,,,, but thank u *


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## Max_C (Dec 26, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> Well, since Vitamin D is available in sunshine, you could go outside. Sunshine doesn't have any fat.
> 
> Nobody has said that cholesterol is not present or should not be present in a healthy body. Again, what we've all said repeatedly is there are healthy and unhealthy levels of it. Its total absense is a health hazard, as is too much of it.
> 
> ...



Risible is right. This thread has ventured very far off course. My apologies for being part of that tangent. LoveBHMS, I will pick this up in a new thread.

Max.


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## Friday (Dec 27, 2007)

> There are 13 known vitamins of which four are fat-soluble, and the remaining nine are water-soluble. A fat-soluble vitamin is absorbed with the help of fat. Vitamins A,D,E and K are fat-soluble. The nine water-soluble vitamins are: B-1 (Thiamin), B-2 (Riboflavin), B3 (Niacin), Folic Acid, B-6 (Pyridoxine), B-12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin and Vitamin C.



The four fat soluble ones are carried and dispersed by fat in the body, they do not however naturally exist in fat until the food we eat puts them there any more than the water soluble one naturally exist in water.

Vitamin A comes from many sources, carrots, broccoli, sweet potatoes and kale being four of the best sources. You can also get vitamin A from liver, but since many of us detest it and choose not to eat a cholesterol laden organ that cleans poisons out of the body of whatever creature it grew in, I for one choose to get mine from the more appealing sources.

Vitamin D's best source is sunlight. You go outside for maybe 15 minutes a day and your skin makes all you need. Your other choices are artificially fortified dairy products or a multi vitamin, not a bad idea anyway.

Vitamin E comes mainly from vegetable oils, nut oils and wheat germ oil, again all non-animal fats and not occuring in our body fats unless we put them there by eating foods rich in them.

Vitamin K comes from eating deep green and orange vegatables and fruits, and many kinds of legumes. They don't appear in our bodies unless we eat the healthy foods that put them there.

I haven't cited anything because they are all from reputable articles that pop up on the first Google page for each one. If you really expect more that laughter when preaching in the face of established nutritional info, I suggest you cite a few sources.

As for your raw milk, no thanks. All those globs of fat make me retch. I prefer my milk without chunks and anything above 2% is not palatable. You drink and eat as you see fit for you and the problem will be self correcting, but leave the rest of us out. Or should we call you mini-Cruise?


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## LillyBBBW (Dec 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> Well, since Vitamin D is available in sunshine, you could go outside. Sunshine doesn't have any fat.
> 
> Nobody has said that cholesterol is not present or should not be present in a healthy body. Again, what we've all said repeatedly is there are healthy and unhealthy levels of it. Its total absense is a health hazard, as is too much of it.
> 
> ...



Idolatry is HUGE in Asian countries. I've visited there and there are idols strategically located in many places. Often I've had to sidestep out of the way because a woman would come and lay a platter of pork before an idol that I happened to be standing in front of and didn't see. I didn't see this happening as often in busy cities like Tokyo or Osaka, but it was very common in many places I've been. People sacrifice the best parts of the meat to their idol of choice before setting what remains before themselves and their family. It's not a very scientific approach but given what I witnessed I think the Asian diet contains a lot more meat than what is commonly accepted and will eat parts of the meat that is commonly tossed out in the US. The best barbecue I've ever eaten in my life was in Tokyo.

I don't know enough to be in support of or in opposition to any argument being presented here. Just thought I'd pass on some information.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Idolatry is HUGE in Asian countries. I've visited there and there are idols strategically located in many places. Often I've had to sidestep out of the way because a woman would come and lay a platter of pork before an idol that I happened to be standing in front of and didn't see. I didn't see this happening as often in busy cities like Tokyo or Osaka, but it was very common in many places I've been. People sacrifice the best parts of the meat to their idol of choice before setting what remains before themselves and their family. It's not a very scientific approach but given what I witnessed I think the Asian diet contains a lot more meat than what is commonly accepted and will eat parts of the meat that is commonly tossed out in the US. The best barbecue I've ever eaten in my life was in Tokyo.
> 
> I don't know enough to be in support of or in opposition to any argument being presented here. Just thought I'd pass on some information.



I stand corrected. Since I have not visited Asia, I'll defer to your observation.


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## Miss Vickie (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't want to take this any more off on a tangent but I did want to tell Max that I read your posts and in fact my husband has been studying cholesterol levels and health for 20 years; my interest is newer, probably only 15 years or so. I know many of the studies you're referring to, and have looked at the work done by Weston Price, Francis Pottenger, Hal Huggins and others on this issue. I agree with you about many things, and in fact have made similar points here and in other forums. I do think that the "lower is better" approach to cholesterol reduction is a little short sighted, and yes there is a place in the human diet for fat. That's obvious.

However, I think it's unconscionable to tell someone to go off their cholesterol lowering medications. You have no idea what Bexy's risk factors for heart disease or stroke are, no idea what else is going on with her, etc. I just think it's really irresponsible to tell someone to stop taking a medication that they, with their doctor's counsel, have decided to take.

As for breast milk.... you're talking to a lactation counselor, an obstetrical nurse, and mother of three who breastfed exclusively her three children. I'm also somewhat anti-immunization, vehemently anti-circumcision and had my youngest at home with midwives. I've been using naturopathic care for 20 years, and never believe what I'm told "just because". So.... I'm no tool of the medical establishment, and trust me, I'm all about breast milk. However it's meant for babies, not adults, Max, and once we get teeth and can eat other things it becomes a smaller part of our diet -- and rightfully so. 

And the reason why breast milk is so much higher in fat than what the adult diet probably should be? Because never in a human being's life after birth is there more growth in brain and neurological development than their is immediately following birth. Never is there more physical growth than there is during the first two years of life. That's why -- because the changes are so phenomenal. It's not that cholesterol becomes "bad" for us, it's just that we don't need as much of it.

Your points about the Native Alaskan diet are good ones. I live in Alaska and many of my patients are Alaska Native. They do very well on their traditional diet high in fat and only have difficulty when they start eating the typical American diet. Their teeth start falling out, diabetes becomes rampant and they have all kinds of other health problems, including heart disease and alcoholism Clearly, for them, a diet high in fat is good. However, if you're familiar at all with the idea of aboriginal diets (and I can direct you to some links if you're interested) you'd know that traditional diets change from place to place and that, in general, people do best on what is the traditional diet for their ethnicity. So while an Alaska Native, who lives in sub zero temperatures where it's dark much of the year would thrive on a diet high in fat, a Polynesian who lives in sunshine and is surrounded by guavas and pineapples would not. Again, let me know and I'll get those links to you. 

My feeling is that there are not as many absolutes as we may think when it comes to the human body and that we need to be open to new (and old!) ideas. But still, telling someone who's not in your care to go off their medications is bad juju in my book.

Okay, rhetoric over. I just had to get all that out and I'm done (for now).


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## LillyBBBW (Dec 27, 2007)

Miss Vickie I would throw my arms around you and kiss you square on the cheek for sharing this. Very informative. You should host your own call in show, I'd be a regular disguising my voice each time.



Miss Vickie said:


> I don't want to take this any more off on a tangent but I did want to tell Max that I read your posts and in fact my husband has been studying cholesterol levels and health for 20 years; my interest is newer, probably only 15 years or so. I know many of the studies you're referring to, and have looked at the work done by Weston Price, Francis Pottenger, Hal Huggins and others on this issue. I agree with you about many things, and in fact have made similar points here and in other forums. I do think that the "lower is better" approach to cholesterol reduction is a little short sighted, and yes there is a place in the human diet for fat. That's obvious.
> 
> However, I think it's unconscionable to tell someone to go off their cholesterol lowering medications. You have no idea what Bexy's risk factors for heart disease or stroke are, no idea what else is going on with her, etc. I just think it's really irresponsible to tell someone to stop taking a medication that they, with their doctor's counsel, have decided to take.
> 
> ...


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## Miss Vickie (Dec 27, 2007)

Aw, shucks. :wubu: I don't know what to say but... thanks. I wish I could come up with some witty, sexy reply but it's too early and I don't have nearly enough caffeine in me. But thank you. And ... um... I'm gonna go blush now, okay?


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## bexy (Dec 27, 2007)

*well to get this thread back on track, im going for a check up 2moro, im starting to feel very low again. and experiencing some other "sexual" side effects that arent making me very happy, ie no orgasm no matter how hard i try, so the doc warned me in advance that if that happens he will have to change my meds again, which will mean another transition period, and other side effects..


so if its ok with everyone i will keep u all updated 

xo*


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## Miss Vickie (Dec 27, 2007)

It's tough, bexy, I know. Those side effects can be brutal. I had such a hard time on Zoloft in terms of being able to respond sexually and just never able to SLEEP. I do much better on Wellbutrin, so it's just hit or miss, you know?

Definitely keep talking to your doctor, especially if you're thinking about starting a family. The hormones in pregnancy can wreak havoc with emotions and not all antidepressants are safe during pregnancy.

In the meantime, you're doing all the right things. I hope things go really well for you. You deserve it.


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## Risible (Dec 27, 2007)

For those of you interested in continuing to debate the claims on cholesteral-lowering medications and low-fat diets brought up by Max C, he has started another thread in the Health Forum to discuss them.

I now return you to ... Bexy!


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## Friday (Dec 27, 2007)

Don't give up kiddo. Mr Friday had a terrible time last year but after two false starts found an antidepressant that works for him. He truly is thankful for the changes it has brought in his mental state.


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## bexy (Dec 27, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> It's tough, bexy, I know. Those side effects can be brutal. I had such a hard time on Zoloft in terms of being able to respond sexually and just never able to SLEEP. I do much better on Wellbutrin, so it's just hit or miss, you know?
> 
> Definitely keep talking to your doctor, especially if you're thinking about starting a family. The hormones in pregnancy can wreak havoc with emotions and not all antidepressants are safe during pregnancy.
> 
> In the meantime, you're doing all the right things. I hope things go really well for you. You deserve it.



*thank u vickie, docs in the morning so i will keep all updated *



Risible said:


> For those of you interested in continuing to debate the claims on cholesteral-lowering medications and low-fat diets brought up by Max C, he has started another thread in the Health Forum to discuss them.
> 
> I now return you to ... Bexy!


*
yey my thread, my thread!! thanks lol  *


Friday said:


> Don't give up kiddo. Mr Friday had a terrible time last year but after two false starts found an antidepressant that works for him. He truly is thankful for the changes it has brought in his mental state.


* fingers crossed for me, if i have to change again it will be the 7th one i have ever been on  thanks for ur concern  *


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## bexy (Dec 30, 2007)

*well i went to the docs. things went ok. he mentioned me going into hospital for a short time if i so wished, mainly to get me on new drugs straight away as Cymbalta is NOT working for me. i have had so many side effects. sickness, vomiting, nausea, cant pee, cant orgasm, hyper one minute, sad on the floor the next and i have been on them over a month now.

day to day i feel ok. im having great days and terrible days tho, nothing in between.

the doc wouldnt change my meds, he wants to leave that to my pysch now, so on the 8th of jan i will go and talk to him about the side effects and see what he decides to put me on. so this will be my 7th anti depressant. some have worked for 2-3 yrs, others i have had to come off after a number of weeks, so i guess this is just another write off.

im still off work, lucky to be receiving sick pay so far, very scared i will be fired when i go back but the doc said send them his way and he will " eat them for breakfast" lol. at least he is very supportive.

the only issue im really struggling with is an insecurity issue. im convinced my best friend has found someone new, and am started to feel paranoid about my bf, which is ridiculous as i KNOW he worships me, im his life. its just that a lot of ppl have let me down, including my parents, and even on a day to day basis i find it hard to understand why people choose to have me in their lives, especially when i am acting depressed. so im needing constant reassurance from them. luckily so far they have been great 

oh well thats my latest update. hopefully the next one will be after my psych visit with news of new meds 

thanks for reading 

xo*


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## Friday (Dec 31, 2007)

> i find it hard to understand why people choose to have me in their lives, especially when i am acting depressed.



Because they love you you silly git. It's not hard to see the why of that. You are a very lovable person.


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## bexy (Dec 31, 2007)

Friday said:


> Because they love you you silly git. It's not hard to see the why of that. You are a very lovable person.


*
lol well thats straight to the point  thank u *


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