# Death and such



## superodalisque

I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country. 

i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.


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## lozonloz

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



It does worry me, I have a family history of diabetes and I am trying to lose weight, in a very slow and controlled manner (I hate dieting and frankly I dont believe it works), with the goal of being around a UK size 20 for the remainder of my life and reaching that size sometime before 30. 

It's something I really dont want to develop and I'm certain to at my current UK size 30. I don't want to be a skinny girl (makes me feel....icky) but I worry that I will die young, and I know that I get away with being realatively healthy now because I am younger- at my current size I WILL have health problems catch up with me. The media has grossly exaggerated the dangers of being overweight, and it isn't anyone's businees but mine what size I am, and I love myself. But I do worry.

My father's diabetes is expecially aggravating now as he has brain cancer and his diabetes means he cant have effective treatment with steroids because they make his blood sugar spike, and he could go into a coma. I didnt realise before this that diabetes could make me less likely to survive diseases such as cancer. That HAS scared me. 

Health is important, and I don't want to fall into the trap of being so enamoured of fat acceptance that I forget that as much as some of the problems shouted about in the media are hokem, some arent, and I have to take care of my body.


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## SBQT73

I won't comment on the issue of being fat and unhealthy. I will say that I read the local obituaries every day and it seems over the past few years, there are more and more YOUNG people dying. So maybe it has nothing to do with fat vs. non-fat but perhaps just the overall population as a whole.


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## superodalisque

SBQT73 said:


> I won't comment on the issue of being fat and unhealthy. I will say that I read the local obituaries every day and it seems over the past few years, there are more and more YOUNG people dying. So maybe it has nothing to do with fat vs. non-fat but perhaps just the overall population as a whole.




i agree but not of the same things. these women are not dying in accidents.


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## dcoyote

I know I should be concerned about my health because of my health, but I really, really hate doctors. I just don't trust them. I'm sick of seeing people taking so many pills too. I know I really should take better care of myself.
My mom's really high blood pressure worries me though. She mainly blames her weight, but I really think moat of it is her stress level. I've never known anyone to be more stressed out all the time. A while ago, she was getting blind a spot in one of her eyes. Her eye doc told her it was fluid building up in her eye caused by stress. She gets so stressed, she goes blind in one eye! If she doesn't take her blood pressure pills and gets stressed out, her blood pressure raises to stroke levels.
Her blood pressure does get better when she loses weight, but she's also less stressed out because she stops fretting so much about her weight. I don't know. She does carry her weight very different from me though. That may be a big factor in it. She carries it mostly in her breasts and towards the middle of her stomach while I carry it mainly in the hips and lower half of my stomach.
I worry about her though. She's only in her early 40's, and my little brother and sister are only 2 and 4.


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## lust4bbbws

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



*I have seen friends of mine that were in great shape and worked out and I ended up watching them pass on. Weight might cause some but then again they have to explain many folks I know that live into their 90's plump,sharp and healthy. Also the media often makes it seem like fat people might be more at risk,but I found via European studies that most American stuf=dies are wrong or scued.*


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## Ernest Nagel

Good questions, SO. As an SSA I've wrestled with some version of them almost my whole life. Although she's in her 50's these kinds of concerns contributed to the dissolution of my last marriage with a SSWife. In spite of borderline diabetes and severely accelerating mobility issues she continued to gain without concern or effort to even stabilize. Her deterioration was heartbreaking and while there were other issues it was definitely a factor in our parting. I did not want to be the co-dependent in her suicide by food. 

Because of my income she didn't need to work and could afford all the calories she wanted. I felt responsible for enabling her. I still pay for her insurance but the settlement was such that she eventually needed to go back to work. While we were married she insisted she couldn't get a job. Since she started working again she's started to moderate her eating and has lost over 70lbs. Her mobility is improving and she feels better. I wish there had been some other way but it really felt like it was gonna be our marriage or her life. That's a horrible position to be in because either way I'm the asshole. 

The bottom line relevant to your post I think is someone has to care more about life than food AND be willing to do something about it. Her labored breathing and chronic joint pain were constant reminders the clock was ticking. Love compels us to make painful choices. FTR I never found her unattractive and she knew that.


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## blubberismanly

I've studied Mortuary Science and I don't want to be a funeral director. I'd rather just be an embalmer...speaking about mortality doesn't move me like it should. I had a friend commit suicide, and I've felt the pain of needless loss but...well, my opinion would likely offend. So I'll just say this: death is the end of suffering. No matter how they were injured or why, they are feeling it no longer. Sometimes that's the only comfort in cases like car accidents and plane crashes. It doesn't make up for the loss but at least it's something.


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## superodalisque

blubberismanly said:


> I've studied Mortuary Science and I don't want to be a funeral director. I'd rather just be an embalmer...speaking about mortality doesn't move me like it should. I had a friend commit suicide, and I've felt the pain of needless loss but...well, my opinion would likely offend. So I'll just say this: death is the end of suffering. No matter how they were injured or why, they are feeling it no longer. Sometimes that's the only comfort in cases like car accidents and plane crashes. It doesn't make up for the loss but at least it's something.



i kinda felt that way when my mom died of lung cancer. i was even a little happy for her since she had been suffering from so much pain. but the thing that kills me is memories of her smoking. i thought of all the times she lit up, even on her death bed. she didn't have to go through that. she loved life. she didn't have to leave it so early and definitely not that way. we were just really beginning to know and fully appreciate each other as people. her death was like a theft. i miss her. the way she died left me with a sense of loss, heartache and longing that i didn't feel when my much loved relatives died much older than her, unexpectedly, quickly and gratefully easily.

the things thats different about all of this though is that i can't imagine people actually cheering my mother on as she lay dying and smoking on her deathbed. but i can imagine people doing the equivalent for a fat women eating--however unknowingly. what kind of culture are we creating for each other? i have a friend now who is really trying to watch her weight for her health issues. she's been very open with that to everyone and her fans keep insisting on sending her things like cupcales even though they know how bad her health is right now. i just can't understand it.


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## ashmamma84

Normally I don't say anything because it's not a popular opinion, but yes, I do think sometimes there's a limit where enough is enough and too much weight is unhealthy. I think people can delude themselves to thinking they are okay if their sugar levels or cholesterol isn't high yet. However, I don't consider being unable to walk but a couple steps and then resting or always relying on a scooter, a mark of being healthy. 

I'm in my 20's and frankly, I have my whole life to be very fat. Having said that, I'm still a plus size woman. I happen to enjoy being active and eating well and realize it's not on everyone's priority list (let's be honest, some people just don't give a damn). I'm not on a diet and I don't restrict what I eat, but I've been practicing conscious eating for a while and I see the benefits. I feel good and it shows. 

In my personal life, I have two good friends and several family members who are well above 400 lbs and sometimes I do worry about them because I see day-to-day what they go through and how they have to maneuver through life. One of my friends has several very serious health issues and we're about the same age, height. It's impacted her ability to lead a good life and that makes me sad for her. She doesn't travel much and long trips are almost out of the question, finding clothes is hard, etc. I've helped her look for sofas when she's worn them out in less than a year, locate a cobbler so she could have shoes custom made because store bought would not fit, etc. It just seems like once you're past a certain point it spirals out of control and becomes wildly expensive - on your pockets and your body. Probably your psyche too. And yet, she won't stop eating. I think she's just very very unhappy and it's how she self-medicates, unfortunately. All of the hurt, shame, anger, etc is stuffed down with the food. 

I haven't talked to her in a while about it because I know I don't want to be badgered about my own weight (and really don't want to seem like a hypocrite - fat chick harping on other fat chick about being fat. Hunh? ). So, if she happens to bring it up again, I'll be honest and express my feelings about it. Just want her to do it in her own time if she chooses because I know how emotional and touchy that sort of thing can be.


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## LoveBHMS

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



It really depends on the person.

There are some, and probably a small percentage of women (and men) here who want to be fat. They choose to be fat, they gain weight intentionally and are not miserable in the least. They're not compulsive overeaters and don't have metabolic problems; they're people who feel whole, happy, and right with themselves when living in a fat body. It's a choice they make with their eyes wide open. It bothers me to see other women insisting they can't possibly be making informed choices when they decide to gain.

I have been intimate with two men who intentionally gained. They wanted to do it. I haven't seen either in a couple of years, and since then each has gained around 40 or 50 pounds and they both really like it. They didn't do it because of me, they did it to make themselves happy. 

People make sacrifices to be thin. They spend money at gyms, spend time exercising, give up eating foods that bring them pleasure. They do it, not always to fit into society or to attain a Hollywood/Madison Avenue standard, but oftentimes because they believe they belong in a thin body and don't feel right being bigger. People also make sacrifices to be fat. Some people like the limitations, some find them exciting.

That having been said, some hate being fat. Some feel out of control with how their bodies look or with their behaviour. I agree with Ashmamma that picking and choosing diseases you dont' have and using that as an indicator of health is silly, but I do think this board and the SA movement in general can enable that. Some of the posts on the food board about what people eat for dinner are truly upsetting, but they move from upsetting to amusing when the same people who post pictures of butter drenched vegetables and gravy soaked steaks are posting elsewhere that obesity is a medical mystery. I really hope anyone not happy with her body is given the power to change it.

I think you need to be really REALLY careful when making judgements about who is and isn't happy. 

Last night, my mother called me to tell me she was diagnosed with osteoporosis. My mom goes to the gym several times a week and does weight bearing exercise and lifts weights. She eats almonds, takes calcium supplements, and eats broccoli and kale by the handful. She drinks skim milk by the cupful. She did everything right and drew the short straw. Her doctor told her one risk factor for osteoporosis was being thin. While some may be smug over that, she also has no trouble fitting into airline seats or booths. She can buy clothes anywhere she wants and can walk anywhere and has no limits for seating or mobility. She didn't make a conscious tradeoff to be thin and get osteoporosis, but I'm not going to believe she has not had a level of happiness and comfort as a thin person that might not have made it somewhat worthwile.


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## Amaranthine

I feel like a big contribution is society itself. The foods that are least expensive often are just terribly unhealthy, while fruits, vegetables, and healthier (especially prepared vegetarian and vegan options) are far pricier. 

To try to make food look healthier (and/or A LOT cheaper), sugar substitutes like aspartame, high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated oils, and MSG among other things just lead to additional health problems. Our bodies don't know what to do with all the unnatural crap.

I really believe that people can be fat and very healthy, but that a lot of the problems come along because many people just opt for the cheaper or supposedly fat/calorie free options when it really is just hurting them. In reality, everyone would be better off if they just stuck to a healthy, natural diet instead of obsessing over calories in the first place.


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## MissCrissi

LoveBHMS said:


> It really depends on the person.
> 
> There are some, and probably a small percentage of women (and men) here who want to be fat. They choose to be fat, they gain weight intentionally and are not miserable in the least. They're not compulsive overeaters and don't have metabolic problems; they're people who feel whole, happy, and right with themselves when living in a fat body. It's a choice they make with their eyes wide open. It bothers me to see other women insisting they can't possibly be making informed choices when they decide to gain.



I agree wholeheartedly with LoveBHMS. If it is a choice they made to be fat/gain and they were aware of all the health risks involved then, well, they made their choice. It sounds harsh, but I'm tired of people pretending no one has personal responsibility anymore. I'm a smoker. I know what it will do to me. I choose to smoke anyway because I have a terrible anxiety disorder and it helps right now with college. Do I plan on smoking forever? Definitely not. But it's still my choice to make. No one else should make it for me. 

However, I can understand where the original poster is coming from what with the men encouraging it and all, but that's common all over the world. Peer-pressure, no matter what its form, is going to happen. If it isn't to pressure a girl into being fat, it's to pressure to conform to an unrealistic self-image. If a guy isn't pressured to be fat, he's being pressured to be fit and buff like the boys in the Abercrombie catalogs. 

It's like the woman that was featured all over the news that wanted to be 1000lbs. Everyone said horrible things about her and all I could say was, "Well, it isn't healthy, true, but it's what she wants to to do..." The only thing that bothers me with issues like this, is that I feel you need to make sure that your problems don't trickle down towards other people. If I was to become that large and knew of the inevitable health issues, I would not be using any sort of insurance or funding from the people because it is not their problem to bare: I made the choice to live an unhealthy lifestyle, now I must pay for what I have wrought.


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## Dolce

Como que I have spread some rep around?!



superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.


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## ashmamma84

The more I think about this, the more I think the same things could be said about any one of us by our thin counterparts whether we're in our 20's or 40's or beyond. And people could look at a woman who's SS and form those same opinions regardless of age.


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## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> The more I think about this, the more I think the same things could be said about any one of us by our thin counterparts whether we're in our 20's or 40's or beyond. And people could look at a woman who's SS and form those same opinions regardless of age.



maybe its because a lot of 20s 30s who are thin SEEM the picture of health but when it hits someone heavy the symptoms are very obvious. just seeing those symptoms have an obvious impact on how we feel about it. but what about those of us who know each other and not just outsiders? it can still be a very scary thing if most of us know many many people who are having a hard time. what if you know hardly any people who are really healthy. can most 20 or 30 somethings say that?


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## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> maybe its because a lot of 20s 30s who are thin SEEM the picture of health but when it hits someone heavy the symptoms are very obvious. just seeing those symptoms have an obvious impact on how we feel about it. but what about those of us who know each other and not just outsiders? it can still be a very scary thing if most of us know many many people who are having a hard time. what if you know hardly any people who are really healthy. can most 20 or 30 somethings say that?



I agree with a lot of your points. I was just saying on the outside, we all seem unhealthy to someone whether we really are or not. 

You're right - most 20 or 30somethings can't say that because it's not very common to be that big. Even at older ages, I still don't think it's all that common. To be honest, most of close friends are very healthy. I don't know if that's because most aren't 400lbs or not, but I know if a lot of them were struggling with health problems it might take its toll on me. Love and concern can do that. Truthfully it sort of is now because I know my friend isn't well. And other relatives aren't either. It is incredibly sobering. I know it's fully possible to live a long life and still be fat, but I don't know very many folks who are 500lbs living to be 90 and beyond. 

Oh and this community is very insular so it naturally will have more people who are 400+ than say... most anywhere else. That might also be a reason for what seems like lots of death at a young age. I don't run in the fat scene so my frame of reference is different.

As a side - my friend and I were talking stats and how most black women are overweight/obese. She feels we are eating ourselves to death for reasons other than "we just like to eat." I don't know how I feel about that though. I'm sure some of us have food addiction, but other issues such as SES, etc come into play. Now I'm rambling because I'm tired, lol. Carry on.


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## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? *is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? * how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.


I'm genuinely confused, Felecia. Eating cupcakes for effect? Is this referring to paysite models?


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## superodalisque

Carrie said:


> I'm genuinely confused, Felecia. Eating cupcakes for effect? Is this referring to paysite models?



no not necessarily. paysite models aren't the only people doing that stuff.


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## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> no not necessarily. paysite models aren't the only people doing that stuff.


Who, then? Feedees? Most of the supersized women I know who could probably be classified as "just too much" didn't get that way by eating anything for show or someone else's gratification, so I'm really not clear on who/what you're hinting at.

I'm really not trying to make light of or be argumentative about such a sad topic. I'm genuinely flummoxed.


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## TraciJo67

SuperO, what I really think is ... to each his own. You seem to have this opinion that we are all somehow interconnected, that we're given to peer pressure, that our behaviors reflect on other people. I don't buy that. If it is true, I believe that those who cannot separate themselves from the herd mentality bear ultimate responsibility for whatever consequences may come. 

I'm assuming you are equating "eating a cupcake for effect" to the paysite model behaviors. Are they under some kind of evil influence? Are they vulnerable victims being used and abused in some way? I think that they are marketing a concept to a customer base. Some will believe that they are sending the message that over-indulging in food is glamorous and sexy, and they'll be appalled. Others will assume the exact same thing and be titillated. And there will always be a few who wonder if someone won't please, please think of the children. We can't escape the fact that any actions we take, individually or as part of a group, will be interpreted in various ways. What we can assume is 100% responsibility for our own lives. I don't care what the paysite models market. I don't care who buys their pizza-stuffing and cheesecake binging pictorials and videos. Ultimately, they are responsible for their lives, for their health, for making their own informed choices and for living with those consequences. Who are we to judge? 

And if someone, somewhere, buys into the concept that it's OK to eat nothing but high-fat, high calorie food with little to no nutritional value, and in whatever quantity desired, because other people do so and suffer no ill health ... I'd say they've been living in a bubble with no access to television, internet, books, medical advise, or even the babbling know-it-all ramblings of the average 7-year-old.


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## superodalisque

Carrie said:


> Who, then? Feedees? Most of the supersized women I know who could probably be classified as "just too much" didn't get that way by eating anything for show or someone else's gratification, so I'm really not clear on who/what you're hinting at.
> 
> I'm really not trying to make light of or be argumentative about such a sad topic. I'm genuinely flummoxed.



its not a particular kind of fat woman. any woman can get caught up. a sexual interest doesn't necessarily mean that someone is going to have a problem with their health. the cupcake thing was referencing the idea of how much harder it can be to take care of yourself if you're a part of something that glorifies unhealthy choices especially when you already have serious health problems.


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## superodalisque

TraciJo67 said:


> SuperO, what I really think is ... to each his own. You seem to have this opinion that we are all somehow interconnected, that we're given to peer pressure, that our behaviors reflect on other people. I don't buy that. If it is true, I believe that those who cannot separate themselves from the herd mentality bear ultimate responsibility for whatever consequences may come.
> 
> I'm assuming you are equating "eating a cupcake for effect" to the paysite model behaviors. Are they under some kind of evil influence? Are they vulnerable victims being used and abused in some way? I think that they are marketing a concept to a customer base. Some will believe that they are sending the message that over-indulging in food is glamorous and sexy, and they'll be appalled. Others will assume the exact same thing and be titillated. And there will always be a few who wonder if someone won't please, please think of the children. We can't escape the fact that any actions we take, individually or as part of a group, will be interpreted in various ways. What we can assume is 100% responsibility for our own lives. I don't care what the paysite models market. I don't care who buys their pizza-stuffing and cheesecake binging pictorials and videos. Ultimately, they are responsible for their lives, for their health, for making their own informed choices and for living with those consequences. Who are we to judge?
> 
> And if someone, somewhere, buys into the concept that it's OK to eat nothing but high-fat, high calorie food with little to no nutritional value, and in whatever quantity desired, because other people do so and suffer no ill health ... I'd say they've been living in a bubble with no access to television, internet, books, medical advise, or even the babbling know-it-all ramblings of the average 7-year-old.



yet i know people who do that. and yes there is some group and heard mentality in some cases. there can be a driving need to belong. one gf and i were noticing how people behave around the buffet at some events. you really have to see what i'm talking about. people do have something to say when you don't eat "enough" or you eat "healthy". they take note and its not generally very supportive. you are made to feel different. you generally see people going out of their way to eat much more than normal because thats what seems to be expected or to get attention. and then when you think about what people might be doing at home in front of a webcam --because a lot of people don't get out much. well it can be very scary. what you've said about people being more logical than that makes a lot of sense. but its not always logic and rationale operating things. i wish it was. i would see much fewer of my friends dropping dead or getting deathly ill if that were true. 

its not so much judging that i'm interested in as how people feel about seeing it go on in front of them. this isn't a health question so much as its an emotional one. we've heard all of the health arguments. i agree that we are responsible for our own health. but how you FEEL seeing people not dealing with the reality is a difficult thing too. you can't really say much because it IS their life. its a hard thing to just shut your eyes though if your friends are dying. and if you really don't care they probably weren't your friend anyway.


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## LoveBHMS

Are you saying that there is this glut of 400+ women who got that way because they overate for effect and to fit in?


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## superodalisque

LoveBHMS said:


> Are you saying that there is this glut of 400+ women who got that way because they overate for effect and to fit in?



i'm saying i've seen way too many friends die suffer and face hard health issues and it hurts .i don't know all 400+ lb women and i haven't looked at stats. just too many for me that i know personally. i'm not trying to make any generalizations. just talking about loss for this particular reason. have you ever lost people close to you like that?


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## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> its not a particular kind of fat woman. any woman can get caught up. a sexual interest doesn't necessarily mean that someone is going to have a problem with their health. the cupcake thing was referencing the idea of how much harder it can be to take care of yourself if you're a part of something that glorifies unhealthy choices especially when you already have serious health problems.


Felecia, I don't even know that I disagree with all of what you're saying, but what's the value in starting a thread like this if you're going to tiptoe around your main points? It sounds as though the real issue you want to explore here is that you're concerned that the culture and atmosphere of Dims and fat appreciation sites and social events contribute towards what you consider "unhealthy choices" (which include, based on your own words in this thread, overeating, inactivity, and eating "unhealthy" foods). I actually think it's a very worthy topic, and certainly one on people's minds, albeit one rife with potential for heated debate.


LoveBHMS said:


> Are you saying that there is this glut of 400+ women who got that way because they overate for effect and to fit in?


That's what I'm getting stuck on, too, and wondering where I and most supersized women I know fit into this equation. I had my own reasons for being fat long before I ended up here, and even most of the feedees I know already identified as feedees and behaved as such before finding Dims, even if they didn't know the word for it yet. I'm not saying Dims, other fat admiration sites and whatnot have had _no_ mindset and behavioral impact on anyone, of course not. I'm quite certain they have. But for me, and I can only speak for me, I filter out the things here and there that don't work for me (e.g. eating something for effect, or for someone else's gratification) and focus on the things that do work for me (people who appreciate me and my body size, people who understand the challenges of living in a supersized body while fighting to remain body-positive, etc.). I struggle with compulsive and emotional eating, and I can honestly tell you that posting here has no effect on it. My eating issues are entirely internal and part of of my everyday life, and have nothing to do with some stranger on the internet (or someone I do know at a bash, for that matter) who thinks I'd look better with 50 more pounds on me. The very thought of that affecting my mindset is laughable. Honestly, watching Food Network is probably more dangerous in terms of encouraging excessive or fatty food consumption for someone like me than Dims. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty sure I'm not unique that way.


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## superodalisque

Carrie said:


> Felecia, I don't even know that I disagree with all of what you're saying, but what's the value in starting a thread like this if you're going to tiptoe around your main points? It sounds as though the real issue you want to explore here is that you're concerned that the culture and atmosphere of Dims and fat appreciation sites and social events contribute towards what you consider "unhealthy choices" (which include, based on your own words in this thread, overeating, inactivity, and eating "unhealthy" foods). I actually think it's a very worthy topic, and certainly one on people's minds, albeit one rife with potential for heated debate.
> 
> That's what I'm getting stuck on, too, and wondering where I and most supersized women I know fit into this equation. I had my own reasons for being fat long before I ended up here, and even most of the feedees I know already identified as feedees and behaved as such before finding Dims, even if they didn't know the word for it yet. I'm not saying Dims, other fat admiration sites and whatnot have had _no_ mindset and behavioral impact on anyone, of course not. I'm quite certain they have. But for me, and I can only speak for me, I filter out the things here and there that don't work for me (e.g. eating something for effect, or for someone else's gratification) and focus on the things that do work for me (people who appreciate me and my body size, people who understand the challenges of living in a supersized body while fighting to remain body-positive, etc.). I struggle with compulsive and emotional eating, and I can honestly tell you that posting here has no effect on it. My eating issues are entirely internal and part of of my everyday life, and have nothing to do with some stranger on the internet (or someone I do know at a bash, for that matter) who thinks I'd look better with 50 more pounds on me. The very thought of that affecting my mindset is laughable. Honestly, watching Food Network is probably more dangerous in terms of encouraging excessive or fatty food consumption for someone like me than Dims. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty sure I'm not unique that way.



if you aren't sure of the value of the question for you its okay not to answer. it might have some value for somebody else as per earlier posts.


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## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> if you aren't sure of the value of the question for you its okay not to answer. it might have some value for somebody else as per earlier posts.


Erm... I actually said it was a good question, worthy of discussion. And I answered it.


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## TraciJo67

superodalisque said:


> its not so much judging that i'm interested in as how people feel about seeing it go on in front of them. this isn't a health question so much as its an emotional one. we've heard all of the health arguments. i agree that we are responsible for our own health. but how you FEEL seeing people not dealing with the reality is a difficult thing too. you can't really say much because it IS their life. its a hard thing to just shut your eyes though if your friends are dying. and if you really don't care they probably weren't your friend anyway.


 
I have friends & loved ones who are making bad decisions, SuperO. I have made a number of them myself, and will continue to do so. I hate to see people whom I care about smoking, drinking to excess, having extramarital affairs, denying obvious health problems while ignoring medical advise, taking on second mortgages or other unnecessary extravagences while the strong possibility of lay-offs exist, ignoring family obligations that [my own sense of morality dictates] they shouldn't be shrugging off. I have more than enough drama in my personal life, more than a few examples of people behaving badly and rationalizing those behaviors within a context of denial that allows them to hold to the same comfortable patterns of self-indulgence (whatever that particular vice may be). I do it myself, and my particular mix of educated ignorance allows me to identify the behavior AS I'M INDULGING IN IT and I always manage to find a way to rationalize it anyway. 

The problem lies in believing that we're responsible for educating other people about their ignorance. We think that we can see that which they cannot, from the unique perspective of standing apart from it all. And sometimes, that is true. I've made a living educating people about chemical dependence and health, about overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles of poverty, homelessness, lack of education coupled with a criminal record and poor credit history, undiagnosed learning disabilities and/or crippling mental illnesses. The only thing I've learned with complete certainty is that, even with unlimited patience and love and resources, even if my motives are completely pure, even though I know that there is always hope and I *can* help ... I can't do anything meaningful until the other person desires a change, and desires it more than he/she desires the comfort of what is known, even as that brings them great pain, because it is the default mode in how they function. In all the years that I spent working in homeless shelters, hospitals, treatment facilities, nursing homes, with doctors and other social workers and healthcare professionals, in conjunction with parole officers and police officers and with volunteers who just really cared and wanted to make a difference in someone else's life .... I can say that I've seen people recycle through the system again and again. I've seen people die. I've seen people who suffered fates worse than death. I wanted to help, I needed to feel that I was helping, and ultimately I realized that I helped very few. And those few? They did *all* of the hard work themselves, and used me as nothing more than a bit of grease in the wheel. They were simply ready to deal in the hard truths. 

I am in no way comparing a fat person to a drug addict. The only comparison that I'm attempting to make at all, SuperO, is the one that you've alluded to: That people can change (assuming a change is necessary) if only they are shown the light. No. I don't believe that is true anymore, and I'm not even sure that I ever believed that - I just wanted to, because it would make ME a little more comfortable to believe it. I can't help people who are _court-ordered_ to avail themselves of my services. I've long since given up believing that I can effect change in friends and loved ones, and the older I get, the more I give up the arrogance in assuming that I know what is best for them anyway. 

My role is to be a friend, a sister, a wife, a mother. To me, that means that I walk a very fine line between expressing concern and knowing when to keep my mouth sealed shut (which should be most of the time). It is not my moral imperative to save them from themselves. I can barely keep my own head above water, anyway. It is my responsibility, and my privilege, to be an ear, a shoulder, a safe place to land if and when they ever take that first step and solicit my advise or help.


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## olwen

> I am in no way comparing a fat person to a drug addict. The only comparison that I'm attempting to make at all, SuperO, is the one that you've alluded to: That people can change (assuming a change is necessary) if only they are shown the light. No. I don't believe that is true anymore, and I'm not even sure that I ever believed that - I just wanted to, because it would make ME a little more comfortable to believe it. I can't help people who are _court-ordered_ to avail themselves of my services. I've long since given up believing that I can effect change in friends and loved ones, and the older I get, the more I give up the arrogance in assuming that I know what is best for them anyway.



I totally agree with this. Nothing I can say or do; no amount of cajoling, negotiating, yelling, screaming, crying, rationalizing will make my alcoholic friend stop drinking. I realized a while ago that the more I tried to bring it up the more likely he was to pull away. Judging him just pissed him off and put him on the defensive. As it probably should cause who wants to be judged by anybody, but especially from people you care about? Ultimately, it's not my body or my life. If he wants to change he'll do it on his own in his own time. Does it mean I loose a friend? Yeah, but better to just stay away than to be around a surly drunk who I would begin to resent.


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## BBW4Chattery

superodalisque said:


> i'm saying i've seen way too many friends die suffer and face hard health issues and it hurts .i don't know all 400+ lb women and i haven't looked at stats. just too many for me that i know personally. i'm not trying to make any generalizations. just talking about loss for this particular reason. have you ever lost people close to you like that?




I've lost several young friends starting in 1st grade and continuing at... probably 1 every few years. Most died from cancers. A few died from accidents. Due to my losses, _and I only just figured this out in the last few years_, I am ill-equipped to handle any interactions with cancer-related issues.

If most of the people you've lost have been overweight, it makes sense to me -- based on my personal experience only -- that you'd associate death and obesity on some level. As a result, I imagine you'd be concerned about it happening in other people... just like I fear cancer taking more people I love from my life.

I think we, as humans, try to make sense of death. We feel the need to categorize it and justify it and explain it in an attempt to avoid it... the reality is that no one escapes it. It can strike down the healthiest person while skipping over 9 people who've done nothing to respect their bodies or their existence on earth. It just sucks and there's no way around it.

Like you noticed, for maybe the first time, that the higher weights can put more of a strain on a body... I noticed, for the first time, just exactly how cancer devastates a body. Tumors can grow so fast that they rupture through the skin... You can be so nauseated that your throat gets bloody and so weak that you soil yourself regularly... Just awful things that can't be unseen... Maybe you've been through some of that too... the seeing too much part of the death and dying process.

I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't relate, entirely, because I've never lost anyone to an obesity-related issue and even my own health issues are not weight-related. I wish I had a bit more of a healthy fear of weight instead of just concerns related to my personal vanity. Certainly, extra weight can kill you... So too, though, can stress -- it's super toxic to our bodies. In that way of thinking, I hope you find comfort soon so you aren't carrying the painful part of grief much longer.

Hugs your way.


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## Tracyarts

There are SO many things I want to say on this topic, so fair warning this is going to be a long response.

" i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? "

Too much is completely subjective because we all have a unique healthy weight range that our bodies function best within; but I would think most rational people would agree that there is a cutoff point where weight gain (and loss) negatively impacts health and well-being. The human body has limits, and if you push it too far in either direction (extreme fatness OR extreme thinness) then your health will suffer and eventually you will die. Some people don't want to think about it too much and some are in denial of it. But it's just part of the reality of the physical world. 

" does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? "

Of course. I have had friends and family members suffer from horrible health problems, and even die young from them. But nowhere near as often as I have seen it happen within the "fatosphere". And whenever I hear about another supersized woman in the prime of her life falling seriously ill or dying, it bothers me. Because I'm a supersized woman in the prime of my life and I can't help but wonder why her and not me? And ask myself whether am I doing whatever I can to ensure I am not next?

" do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? "

I used to back in the day, but there seems to be more balance these days. It is no longer taboo to discuss healthy lifestyle options here. And even admitting to losing some weight to improve health and well-being is tolerated as long as you're not too vocal about it. I don't know about the rest of the "fatosphere" though as I don't really go to events or participate in other message forums and online groups anymore. So maybe you still risk negative feedback for openly practicing healthy habits in other places. But I can't see it being as big of an issue as it was ten years ago. Although I might be wrong. Who knows? Even as such I have always stood my ground when it comes to my health so they can encourage bad habits all they want, doesn't mean I have to pay any attention to them. 

" is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? "

No, but to be honest as long as there are audiences, there will be willing performers. It's up to the performers to set their own boundaries and take responsibility for their choices. You have decide if the consequences are worth the payoff you receive. I do know that some people get in over their heads because of the money and/or ego boost payoff of catering to an admiring audience. Also there are cases where people get exploited, and where addictions cloud judgement. But all in all it's a matter of choice and personal responsibility. And to be fair, not everybody who does food shows for pay or praise risks dire consequences. If you follow an otherwise healthy lifestyle and aren't gaining past your healthy zone, you can have an occasional binge and at worst risk an upset stomach or the crash following a sugar buzz. If you are doing to excess or otherwise risking dire consequences then all I have to say is that in the end I hope you feel it was worth it and don't have any regrets. 

" how do you handle it? "

I try and concentrate on my own health and well-being. Because that's all I have any amount of control over. 

" how does it apply to you personally? "

I've been there and done that. I went from being a healthy and active midsized person to a very unhealthy and severely mobility compromised supersized person. I know from personal experience just how easy the weight, as well as health problems and mobility loss, can creep up on you. I also know from personal experience just how difficult it is to reverse the process. I will say that had I known then what I know now, I would have been MUCH more proactive about not getting any bigger and paid MUCH closer attention to health warning signs and not dismissed my doctor as being a "fat bigot" when he expressed his concern over where I was headed. 

Where it stands now, the lifestyle I adhere to has paid off with extremely good health, but my mobility is still not good. I have tried medications of all kinds, physical therapy, and even alternative therapies to help. But the only thing that is lessening my back pain and increasing the amount of time I can spend on foot is slow gradual weight loss back down to the midsized range. I don't worry about dying but I do worry about wasting time not being able to do many of the things I enjoy. But I think with my health as good as it is, I have bought enough time to get to where I need to be and still be able to enjoy myself once I get there.

Tracy


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## truebebeblue

I do worry... and I have opinions that probably won't be popular here.
I have been a 25 year old that was 500 lbs with diabetes high blood pressure,sleep apnea and lost my ability to work or walk more than about 100 feet.


It really sucks. Death was imminent for me.I could feel it.
The part that hurt the most was that I did it to myself.

I didn't have a cheering section or people contributing money to a fattening budget.
I can only imagine if I got swept up in that how much bigger and sicker I would have gotten. 
We like to think that every woman here has the ability to not be 
pressured into gaining by the adoration/acceptance but being that alot of fat people have self esteem issues this isn't realistic. Some people crave love and acceptance so badly that they WILL change their body to get it. Well getting fat is much easier than getting thin.
I know it doesn't apply to everyone,not what I am saying.

I would love to get into a discussion of how this intertwines with food addiction/COE but in a more appropriate thread..

Anyway, yeah it scares me because I have been there and I really hope no one else has to go through that pain but I doubt my wish will come true.


True


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## LoveBHMS

One thing that gets often mentioned in the feederism boards is that when it comes to health, your body won't know how or why the weight was gained. When people, particularly SS people harass and attack those involved in feederism, it can be confusing since they themselves are fat and in some cases fatter than feedee/gainers who are in discussions.

Health is health. I sometimes get the feeling on here that people think there's some difference between a cupcake eaten for affect, a cupcake eaten because a woman feels she has to gain weight to keep a man, a cupcake eaten because you're depressed, and a cupcake eaten and photographed for the Foodee board and bragged about. There isn't. Your body is going to process the junk food the exact same way in every case.

A woman can come on here and say "Screw diets. I'm going to eat this cheeseburger, fries, and chocolate milkshake and fuck the world. Doctors and the media are all about scare tactics and fat bigotry anyway. I don't even listen to them." Somehow that would be Size Acceptance while a different woman plowing through the same fast food dinner in front of a webcam (cause she never goes out) and ignoring her health is an object of pity eating for "affect".

I don't get it.


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## Emma

This thread strikes me as a "its ok to be as fat as I am, but if you're bigger you're unhealthy and you're going to die" hidden under the guise of concern. 

My thoughts on the matter are this (this is excluding people who have gotten intentionally fat) if you are 200,400,600 pounds you are still overweight and have gotten there in the same way. If you can't stop eating and want to be thinner at a lower weight, when you can move around a lot easier, what chance have you got at a higher weight? You're only a slip or injury away from being supersized. 

Do you think that supersized people were not once your size? Do you think the majority of them made a decision to become supersized?


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## LillyBBBW

I'm happy the way I am, that is what is most important to me. I've spent the greater portion of my life worrying and being miserable and have decided that's not for me anymore. It's true, I may die but for me that is ok. For everyone else this may not be but they don't have to live my life, I do. I'd rather live five years pleasing myself than fifty trying to please other people who will ultimately never be satisfied no matter what I do.

ETA: And it's no act. I love cupcakes.


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## LillyBBBW

CurvyEm said:


> This thread strikes me as a "its ok to be as fat as I am, but if you're bigger you're unhealthy and you're going to die" hidden under the guise of concern.
> 
> My thoughts on the matter are this (this is excluding people who have gotten intentionally fat) if you are 200,400,600 pounds you are still overweight and have gotten there in the same way. If you can't stop eating and want to be thinner at a lower weight, when you can move around a lot easier, what chance have you got at a higher weight? You're only a slip or injury away from being supersized.
> 
> Do you think that supersized people were not once your size? Do you think the majority of them made a decision to become supersized?



This is all so very true Em, and you have some Rep coming. Nobody who died knew that they were going to die. I don't think it occurs to many of the people here who ask these questions that they too could get sick, fall or die in an instant. When they're gone, people will shake their heads in disappointment asking themselves the same questions: Maybe if you cared more, did more, tried harder, realized, etc. There is no such thing as an enlightened fattie when you're dead. Even when you're alive for that matter. Being less fat is personally comforting only to yourself, especially in light of what you've done to become less fat. When you die though only your fat is remembered, same as it is for all the others. And there will be still others left to wring their hands over the fatties who seemingly learn nothing from your demise.


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## Carrie

LoveBHMS said:


> One thing that gets often mentioned in the feederism boards is that when it comes to health, your body won't know how or why the weight was gained. When people, particularly SS people harass and attack those involved in feederism, it can be confusing since they themselves are fat and in some cases fatter than feedee/gainers who are in discussions.
> 
> Health is health. I sometimes get the feeling on here that people think there's some difference between a cupcake eaten for affect, a cupcake eaten because a woman feels she has to gain weight to keep a man, a cupcake eaten because you're depressed, and a cupcake eaten and photographed for the Foodee board and bragged about. There isn't. Your body is going to process the junk food the exact same way in every case.
> 
> A woman can come on here and say "Screw diets. I'm going to eat this cheeseburger, fries, and chocolate milkshake and fuck the world. Doctors and the media are all about scare tactics and fat bigotry anyway. I don't even listen to them." Somehow that would be Size Acceptance while a different woman plowing through the same fast food dinner in front of a webcam (cause she never goes out) and ignoring her health is an object of pity eating for "affect".
> 
> I don't get it.


Sometimes I think the only difference is the type of cautionary tale told when we do die. The moral is always the same, though: don't let yourself get _too_ fat, fatties.


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## TraciJo67

BBW4Chattery said:


> I think we, as humans, try to make sense of death. We feel the need to categorize it and justify it and explain it in an attempt to avoid it... the reality is that no one escapes it. It can strike down the healthiest person while skipping over 9 people who've done nothing to respect their bodies or their existence on earth. It just sucks and there's no way around it.


 
I loved your entire thoughtful post, but this particularly struck a chord with me. Bears repeating.


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## Ash

I'm in my 20s, well over 400 lbs, and I love cupcakes.

My feeling on this subject is that it's simply none of your business what other people do with their bodies and lives. I have plenty of friends and family members with dangerous jobs, hobbies, and habits, but I respect them and their right to treat themselves however they choose.

The bottom line is that life is fucking short and it's your own to live as you see fit. For me that means eating cupcakes.


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## supersoup

death is awful and gut wrenching no matter what the cause is. it leaves people behind with nothing but unanswered questions and heartache. 

when i die, i don't want anyone's pity. i don't care if they think i got too fat. i am well over 400 pounds and i am 27 years old. anyone that pities me can have their pity back, and i can instruct them on how best to store it. i have no problem with it, and if i ever decide i do, i also have no problem changing it. what i eat, what i do, and how i live my life is my own choice, and when i pass away, that's that. i will die having had a fantastic family, friends that made my world brighter, and having loved the most kind hearted and amazing man i've ever met. if i die from a car accident, from my kidney problems, from eating that last cupcake to tease my feeder boyfriend, it doesn't matter. i don't want pity. it's no one's business what i do with my life, what i eat for dinner, who i have as friends, what job i decide to have, or what i buy at the grocery store. life is painfully short, and i will never add the stressor of worrying about what other people are doing to my already ample list. no one should. live and love, as best you can. that's what i'm doing, and i don't want anyone's input on it.


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## Shosh

I currently weigh 300 pounds. My self esteem is actually better now at this weight, than when I lost a lot of weight.
I feel beautiful, and for the first time in my life I can say that I love my body, and I love who I am.

For me, there are limits though. I do not want to exceed the 300 pound mark, because of the health implications, and it just becomes harder, and more uncomfortable living in a heavier body.
The body can only really tolerate so much, until it becomes a health issue and it effects your quality of life.

I feel sad about Rhonda, and Cindy and Connie. They were all young women, and they lost all those years of life.


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## superodalisque

again this thread is not about judging anyones health or personal choices. people have a lot of drives and they are complicated. what it is about is how people feel who are watching and how they feel and what it does to them emotionally.


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## LillyBBBW

You did say that you wanted everyone's opinion though.


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## superodalisque

LillyBBBW said:


> You did say that you wanted everyone's opinion though.



yes but the topic isn't about attacking anyone one for their choices.


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## ashmamma84

LoveBHMS said:


> One thing that gets often mentioned in the feederism boards is that when it comes to health, your body won't know how or why the weight was gained. When people, particularly SS people harass and attack those involved in feederism, it can be confusing since they themselves are fat and in some cases fatter than feedee/gainers who are in discussions.
> 
> Health is health. I sometimes get the feeling on here that people think there's some difference between a cupcake eaten for affect, a cupcake eaten because a woman feels she has to gain weight to keep a man, a cupcake eaten because you're depressed, and a cupcake eaten and photographed for the Foodee board and bragged about. There isn't. Your body is going to process the junk food the exact same way in every case.
> 
> A woman can come on here and say "Screw diets. I'm going to eat this cheeseburger, fries, and chocolate milkshake and fuck the world. Doctors and the media are all about scare tactics and fat bigotry anyway. I don't even listen to them." Somehow that would be Size Acceptance while a different woman plowing through the same fast food dinner in front of a webcam (cause she never goes out) and ignoring her health is an object of pity eating for "affect".
> 
> I don't get it.



This was what I wanted to get across with my second posting, but you did so brilliantly. I guess that's why age to me is kinda null and void. If you're 400+ and it impacts your life negatively, it does so whether you're 20, 40, 60. I don't really like the finger pointing that seems to say, there are good fatties and bad fatties. Doesn't really matter if I got this way crying over Ben and Jerry's or if my partner buys me treats that I indulge in. (And the latter is true) I guess the point is that we're all adults and if people want to gain to extreme weights that's their thing and their life. I don't want anyone telling me how to live mine. 

However, that doesn't mean I can't be there for my friend when and if she comes to me again because she's struggling with health/mobility problems and talk about it truthfully. At the end of the day, as long as she's happy, I'm happy. It's not my place to second guess her - if she tells me she's doing fine, that's what I'm going by. 

I can say I do have a weight threshold I don't want to exceed for my own comfort and health (and a small part is vanity, if I'm being honest). I know my body and what feels right, so that's what I'm going with. I've been injured and have had an illness that made me think about my weight/life in a different light. For a couple months my mobility was impacted and there was a lot I couldn't do. It was very foreign and unnerving for me because I'm a very active, on-the-go woman. There were other personal issues I encountered I never thought I would - those things really opened my eyes. Having been through that, it's just not a road I want to go down again. For me, it's depressing, embarrassing, and just not the vision I have of myself. 

And isn't that what it's all about - expressing our different ways of being and living them out. It's not up to other people to decide what's best for us. I think I can safely say, almost all the women here have had people trying to do that to them in one way or another with suggestions of WLS, eating less, moving more, etc. It's really maddening when "one of your own" tries to do it too.


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## MissStacie

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> *i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary?* how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



Hmmm...just because you SAY you aren't anti-fat, doesn't meant that this sentence doesn't SCREAM anti-fat.

I see death,misery and bad health every day. Death by car accident, cancer, alcoholism, suicide, etc. I see misery every day; domestic abuse, poverty, homelessness, etc. I see bad health: anorexia, smoking, drinking, arthritis, MS, MD, etc. I can easily die by stepping off the curb and being hit by a but as much as I can from having a heart attack because I weigh 400lbs. 

So, its ok to be fat, if I have GOOD habits and not indulge in a cupcake or 12? So, its ok to be fat if I eat veggies instead of french fries? I've been on national television telling people that how *I* live is not for EVERYONE, and I meant that. Not everyone is cut out to be supersized. How I choose to live is no ones' decision but my own, and how everyone ELSE chooses to live theirs, I cannot comment on and I don't believe YOU should either.

I just don't know why you posted such a judgemental topic


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## superodalisque

MissStacie said:


> Hmmm...just because you SAY you aren't anti-fat, doesn't meant that this sentence doesn't SCREAM anti-fat.
> 
> I see death,misery and bad health every day. Death by car accident, cancer, alcoholism, suicide, etc. I see misery every day; domestic abuse, poverty, homelessness, etc. I see bad health: anorexia, smoking, drinking, arthritis, MS, MD, etc. I can easily die by stepping off the curb and being hit by a but as much as I can from having a heart attack because I weigh 400lbs.
> 
> So, its ok to be fat, if I have GOOD habits and not indulge in a cupcake or 12? So, its ok to be fat if I eat veggies instead of french fries? I've been on national television telling people that how *I* live is not for EVERYONE, and I meant that. Not everyone is cut out to be supersized. How I choose to live is no ones' decision but my own, and how everyone ELSE chooses to live theirs, I cannot comment on and I don't believe YOU should either.
> 
> I just don't know why you posted such a judgemental topic



i agree with a lot of that. but you never have any thoughts about it if you go to an event or post in a forum and you know that nearly all of your friends there are struggling? what do you think about it? does it make you feel any way in particular? or is it that you never think about it?


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> again this thread is not about judging anyones health or personal choices. people have a lot of drives and they are complicated. what it is about is how people feel who are watching and how they feel and what it does to them emotionally.



I guess I wonder why anyone should care about how people who are watching feel. It's like the other day I was in Macy's browsing on my lunch. I had a venti frap with caramel, chocolate and whipped cream that I was chugging away at. So, a couple ladies just couldn't take their eyes off me for some reason. I don't know if it's because I had such a large drink and I was fat or maybe it was secret envy.  But what I do know is that I just didn't give a shit. I was on the hunt for a pair of red pumps (didn't find 'em either!) so I couldn't be arsed with paying them any mind. What with a 50% sale going on. NO CHANCE! 

And if my friends saw me gorging on food (I've been known to put alot of food away) and they felt bad or sorry for me, I don't know that I'd want them as a friend quite frankly. However, if I've told them that I'm in ill health and they see me doing that... if they feel uncomfortable they don't have to be around me as often. There are other things we can/could do that don't involve eating. There's always a choice in how you negotiate friendships. 

Also, how well do people know each other that attend bashes? Just curious because I've never been to one. I am guessing some very close friendships have been formed and people do talk on the phone and visit each other. Are these the kinds of friends you're talking about or are they just people you've made you're acquaintance with?


----------



## imfree

Shosh said:


> I currently weigh 300 pounds. My self esteem is actually better now at this weight, than when I lost a lot of weight.
> I feel beautiful, and for the first time in my life I can say that I love my body, and I love who I am.
> 
> *For me, there are limits though*. I do not want to exceed the 300 pound mark, because of the health implications, and it just becomes harder, and more uncomfortable living in a heavier body.
> The body can only really tolerate so much, until it becomes a health issue and it effects your quality of life.
> 
> I feel sad about Rhonda, and Cindy and Connie. They were all young women, and they lost all those years of life.



Great post, Shoshie! I remember what BBP wrote
in a post a few years ago, how personal limits are
a hard-learned lesson. Mine were hard learned.:bow:


----------



## MissStacie

Well first of all, I think health is a personal issue. Its like religion, what people choose for themselves is THEIR DECISION and I don't have a say in it one way or the other. Secondly, not all of my friends on these forums or in person(at events, and such), ARE struggling. Maybe you see ALL of your friends struggling because that is what you are focusing on?

Am I said when/if one of my friends is in a bad spot? Sure, absolutely. I feel love and compassion for them, as most human beings would. In my fattie world, in the same situation, would I change my "habits" in order to make a better example? Hell no....not my place to do so.

But again. not all of my friends are on these forums, as are MOST of the people on Dims....we DO have real life friends, too ya know...and guess what? Most of them are pretty healthy!


----------



## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> I guess I wonder why anyone should care about how people who are watching feel. It's like the other day I was in Macy's browsing on my lunch. I had a venti frap with caramel, chocolate and whipped cream that I was chugging away at. So, a couple ladies just couldn't take their eyes off me for some reason. I don't know if it's because I had such a large drink and I was fat or maybe it was secret envy.  But what I do know is that I just didn't give a shit. I was on the hunt for a pair of red pumps (didn't find 'em either!) so I couldn't be arsed with paying them any mind. What with a 50% sale going on. NO CHANCE!
> 
> And if my friends saw me gorging on food (I've been known to put alot of food away) and they felt bad or sorry for me, I don't know that I'd want them as a friend quite frankly.
> 
> Also, how well do people know each other that attend bashes? Just curious because I've never been to one. I am guessing some very close friendships have been formed and people do talk on the phone and visit each other. Are these the kinds of friends you're talking about or are they just people you've made you're acquaintance with?



maybe i need to clarify. i was reading that and it didn't hit the point as i would like. its not about outside people watching you and what they think about you and what you may or may not be doing.. its about you watching friends and acquaintances and how that impacts you. how does it make you personally feel to watch it going on.


----------



## Emma

Do you realise that what you are saying here is pretty much what 'average' sized people think about you?

I see you didn't address my post?


----------



## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> i agree with a lot of that. but you never have any thoughts about it if you go to an event or post in a forum and you know that nearly all of your friends there are struggling? what do you think about it? does it make you feel any way in particular? or is it that you never think about it?


I don't think most people enjoy seeing a friend struggle, but what do you suppose _would_ happen if they stopped frequenting fat acceptance sites and events? That they'd lose weight and stop struggling? If weight loss were that easy, Dims would have far fewer members. Many of us use fat/size acceptance sites and social gatherings as part of our emotional support system, so while there would be less of the negative influence you've perceived and alluded to, we also would lose a great deal of support and understanding that's become important to us. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of us would still be quite fat, on top of that. 

Felecia, you and I've had some rocky moments here lately, so let me just clarify that I'm not posting here to be argumentative or confrontational. I am honestly interested in being part of this discussion, and what you've said has spurred these questions for me.


----------



## Ash

superodalisque said:


> again this thread is not about judging anyones health or personal choices. people have a lot of drives and they are complicated. what it is about is how people feel who are watching and how they feel and what it does to them emotionally.



Your entire original post is judgment, Felecia. 

You were always athletic, always watched what you ate, you can travel, you don't have "old lady diseases" (I really have no idea what this even means), and it took you 40 years to get to 400 lbs. Our lives are limited and unexplored. That's what you said. 

You can swear up and down all day long that this isn't what you meant, but all of the above implies that you are somehow a better or more responsible fat girl because of the way you've lived your fat life. Phrasing your entire second paragraph as a question and claiming innocent curiosity doesn't change any of that. 

And I stand by my answer that it's just none of your business. You can feel sad or sorry for me all day long if you want to, but I'm still going to have fun and enjoy life at my current weight. Believe me, I'm leaving nothing unexplored.


----------



## superodalisque

CurvyEm said:


> Do you realise that what you are saying here is pretty much what 'average' sized people think about you?
> 
> I see you didn't address my post?




but i'm asking BBWs. does it really matter if we think differently or are we thinking the same as "avergage" people? actually we are getting to be the new avergae. i'm not making any assumptions and this is not about normal versus fat. its all about us and what we think. what do you personally think? does it ever cross your mind? if there was a world and no one was thin and there wasn't fat prejudice what would you be thinking? maybe its time we stopped thinking about ourselves in relation to prejudice and just about how we personally feel and think without worrying about who is going to think what about us. its all about you for once. how do YOU feel about it?


----------



## ashmamma84

Ashley said:


> Your entire original post is judgment, Felecia.
> 
> You were always athletic, always watched what you ate, you can travel, you don't have "old lady diseases" (I really have no idea what this even means), and it took you 40 years to get to 400 lbs. Our lives are limited and unexplored. That's what you said.
> 
> You can swear up and down all day long that this isn't what you meant, but all of the above implies that you are somehow a better or more responsible fat girl because of the way you've lived your fat life. Phrasing your entire second paragraph as a question and claiming innocent curiosity doesn't change any of that.
> 
> And I stand by my answer that it's just none of your business. You can feel sad or sorry for me all day long if you want to, but I'm still going to have fun and enjoy life at my current weight. Believe me, I'm leaving nothing unexplored.



And you know what? That's admirable. It's a helluva lot more than some fat chicks can say who are so afraid of what others think of them. Kudos to you for living out your dream.

I have to be honest here - when I was first intro'd to feedism/gaining I was staunchly against it. I thought, "Why would anyone do that to themselves?" But slowly I came to realize it didn't matter what I thought as long as people were living as they saw fit. And come to find out, there were even aspects that weren't as bad and could even be enjoyable. The SHOCK! HORROR! I'm at a point where I can't knock anything until I've tried it. Hell I could be missing out on something that takes me to another level. I'm open to life and experiences. If I don't like it, I can move on. It's not my place to judge or point fingers at any one particular way of life because bottom line is WE'RE ALL FAT in some degree or another.

Anyway, I say all that to say, keep doin' your thing. Whatever it is that makes your heart sing!


----------



## Emma

What do I think? Well I know nothing about the personal health issues behind the deaths. I don't know if they were healthy and just their weight contributed to their deaths nor do I know if they were plagued with health problems and just decided to throw caution to the wind and live their lives as they wanted to. 

The only fear I have for the young people who intentionally gain a lot of weight is that they don't understand the implications of what may happen to them when they are older but no I don't think they're all about to drop dead any time soon.


----------



## superodalisque

Ashley said:


> Your entire original post is judgment, Felecia.
> 
> You were always athletic, always watched what you ate, you can travel, you don't have "old lady diseases" (I really have no idea what this even means), and it took you 40 years to get to 400 lbs. Our lives are limited and unexplored. That's what you said.
> 
> You can swear up and down all day long that this isn't what you meant, but all of the above implies that you are somehow a better or more responsible fat girl because of the way you've lived your fat life. Phrasing your entire second paragraph as a question and claiming innocent curiosity doesn't change any of that.
> 
> And I stand by my answer that it's just none of your business. You can feel sad or sorry for me all day long if you want to, but I'm still going to have fun and enjoy life at my current weight. Believe me, I'm leaving nothing unexplored.



sorry if you took it that way but thats not how it was meant. it was my personal feeling. and i was trying to explain why i feel things are different these days and people have to deal with things much sooner now. its no lie. i could see it if i was lying or exaggerating but i wasn't. some younger people do have diseases i don't have and tend to weigh more earlier. thats reality for some people. i was not speaking to your personal truth. as for how a person gets fat or stays fat being none of my business. thats fine. i never asked people to defend their size or how or what they ate. it was just about how another fat person felt when they did watch people deteriorate right before their eyes. if you feel offended theres an option to post or not post and you are free not to post. so no harm no foul.

for the record this is not an exposition about feedees and gainers. they aren't the only heavy women in the world. they aren't the only women who have to deal with fat related issues.


----------



## Ash

superodalisque said:


> if you feel offended theres an option to post or not post and you are free not to post. so no harm no foul.
> 
> for the record this is not an exposition about feedees and gainers. they aren't the only heavy women in the world. they aren't the only women who have to deal with fat related issues.



I am offended and I chose to post. Happens all the time around here. I'm a BBW too, so I'm allowed. 

And also, for the record, I'm not suggesting that you are attacking feedees and gainers here. I never suggested that other fat women don't deal with these issues. 

I am, however, suggesting that you're asking leading questions in a poor attempt to disguise your true feelings about women who you think are too young to be so fat. I'm pretty sure any 400+ lb woman in her 20s has the potential to be offended by this--not just the gainers. 

I respect you, Felecia, and I think that most of the time your heart is in the right place. You're really off the mark with that first post, though.


----------



## superodalisque

Ashley said:


> I am offended and I chose to post. Happens all the time around here. I'm a BBW too, so I'm allowed.
> 
> And also, for the record, I'm not suggesting that you are attacking feedees and gainers here. I never suggested that other fat women don't deal with these issues.
> 
> I am, however, suggesting that you're asking leading questions in a poor attempt to disguise your true feelings about women who you think are too young to be so fat. I'm pretty sure any 400+ lb woman in her 20s has the potential to be offended by this--not just the gainers.
> 
> I respect you, Felecia, and I think that most of the time your heart is in the right place. You're really off the mark with that first post, though.



i understand. i knew it wouldn't be taken well. but at least i said it and it was heard. i know everything i say won't be liked and can't be. especially stuff thats hard to hear. i hope one day you'll get where i'm coming from and why i'm doing this. take care.


----------



## Carrie

Ashley said:


> I'm pretty sure any 400+ lb woman in her 20s has the potential to be offended by this--not just the gainers.


I'm going to widen that range and suggest it's any 400+ lb. woman, period, especially those of us who are "just too much" and exhibit the aforementioned "unhealthy" behaviors. I feel like we're all on the verge of being sent to fat camp for reprogramming.

I call top bunk.


----------



## Jes

I think this is a good topic and something worth addressing in the panoply of things we discuss at Dims. I tried to shorten my response, but did a poor job.

My answer to your question, Super, would be that when I first came to Dims (and other places in the fatosphere) I did so b/c I wanted to actively engage with body-centric messages that countered what the media said. If I took in an hour of fat-negative stuff a day then I wanted to try to find an hour of fat-positive or at least fat-neutral stuff. At Dims, there were some stories I hadn't heard before, realities that were new to me, mindsets that were different than my own. There were also many commonalities. It all took a lot of getting used to, and I asked a lot of questions. 

I've found that I've now reversed myself in a way and sometimes go outside of Dims to find the balance I was looking for when I first got here. It's no surprise that I don't agree with everyone and everything here at Dims--fat people aren't all alike and so we're never going to agree just, and only, because we're fat.

There are a few things here with which I very much struggle. I personally don't believe the 'if I die early I'll do it with no regrets and no chest beating or 'noooo!' talk.' I think it rings hollow. The human desire for survival is very strong. That's just biology. I haven't known people to say: you know, I was a smoker, it makes sense that I now have lung cancer, I'm not going to freak out, I'm not going to pray for better health, I'm not going to try meds or surgery, I'm just going to enjoy the memory of those 30 years I smoked, and peace, out! It's usually the younger, or the healthier, people who espouse those beliefs; I haven't known a single person facing imminent illness or on a deathbed who hasn't wanted to change the situation in some way, to fight an illness, to try to remove a cancer or an infection. There's still a lot of 'why me, a lot of I'm not ready to die yet, I just want to see my kids grow up!' Are people truly happy and satisfied with their memories in the face of pain, and fear and the unknown? So, personally, it's hard for me to read those comments. That's my feeling; obviously it's not shared by all. 

I also feel that most established diets don't work (which we hear here a lot), and that losing (and keeping off) weight is very, very difficult. So I find it confusing when someone who eats a lot and enjoys the gain says 'If it proves too much when I'm older, I'll just lose the weight!' I think that may be naivete. I thought diets didn't work? That's also hard to read. 

And finally, when people say that most fat people at Dims are fat through no action of their own (and it's been said), I vehemently disagree with this and I wonder how we can have gainers and feedees who eat a lot and then gain weight. If it's not eating that contributes heavily to making the average person fatter, then wouldn't gainers not exist? There's a disconnect there. Not everyone in our community believes all of these things together, but there is someone in our community who believes each of these separate things, and it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference. 

I suspect, Super, that some of what you're talking about is the effect of age/experience on our opinions. Now that I'm *mumble* years old I have aches and pains. I fix one problem just to have another crop up the very.next.day. I have to skip the gym sometimes because something just hurts too much. And you know what? I never had any real conception of the specific ways in which it would happen to me. What aging would actually FEEL like. Aging is not for the weak. But more weight, in my opinion, makes it worse. And sometimes, I want to tell Dims kids (not necessarily defined by age) to get off my front lawn! I also understand that many feel this is patronizing.

So that's how this topic makes me feel personally.


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> i understand. i knew it wouldn't be taken well. but at least i said it and it was heard. i know everything i say won't be liked and can't be. especially stuff thats hard to hear. i hope one day you'll get where i'm coming from and why i'm doing this. take care.



If you don't mind me asking - why ARE you doing this?


----------



## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> If you don't mind me asking - why ARE you doing this?



just to get people to talk about how they really feel without relating it to outside prejudice or trying to keep up an image. just talk and say what they personally feel about what they see around them. sometimes i think there is a political line to tow--and for good reason. but maybe we just need to suspend that sometimes and say how we really feel and not try to make people into fat haters or attackers if they aren't always saying what sounds good politically and whats expected. maybe we need to stop worrying about what thin people think and what we do in relation to that. maybe we need to start worrying about our feelings for a change without any filter. or avoidance


----------



## LillyBBBW

Carrie said:


> I'm going to widen that range and suggest it's any 400+ lb. woman, period, especially those of us who are "just too much" and exhibit the aforementioned "unhealthy" behaviors. I feel like we're all on the verge of being sent to fat camp for reprogramming.
> 
> I call top bunk.



No reprogramming for me thanks, I'm trying to cut down.


----------



## LoveBHMS

superodalisque said:


> just to get people to talk about how they really feel without relating it to outside prejudice or trying to keep up an image. just talk and say what they personally feel about what they see around them. sometimes i think there is a political line to tow--and for good reason. but maybe we just need to suspend that sometimes and say how we really feel and not try to make people into fat haters or attackers if they aren't always saying what sounds good politically and whats expected. maybe we need to stop worrying about what thin people think and what we do in relation to that. maybe we need to start worrying about our feelings for a change without any filter. or avoidance



You miss an important point.

My feelings may have nothing at all to do with somebody else's reality. I might feel all the sorrow, pity, and sadness in the world seeing a 400 pound woman unable to walk more than a few feet. But that 400 pound woman might be wildly turned on when she can't walk a flight of stairs or fit in a booth, so my feelings may not have fuck all to do with her feelings. If I don't necessarily want her life, that life may be something she actively pursued.

A fat woman may see gym rats as miserable self flagelating creatures who know no pleasure in life, while those "painfully" skinny women revel in their size 2 dresses and thrill to looking in the mirror and seeing ribcages. A lot of weight gain fiction stories deal with formerly fit and active women giving into a fat lifestyle, but the simple truth is not all women are unhappy while sweating or rejecting cheesecake or The Bacon Fairy.

I can look at a woman and feel sorry for her limitations while she looks at me and thinks the money I spend each month to belong to a gym is better spent on truffles. I may pity her sweating when she waddles a block while she may pity me wasting my life on a treadmill. But the simple truth is we're both doing what we want to do to fulfill the emotional and physical lives we want.


----------



## KHayes666

Shosh said:


> I currently weigh 300 pounds. My self esteem is actually better now at this weight, than when I lost a lot of weight.
> I feel beautiful, and for the first time in my life I can say that I love my body, and I love who I am.
> 
> For me, there are limits though. I do not want to exceed the 300 pound mark, because of the health implications, and it just becomes harder, and more uncomfortable living in a heavier body.
> The body can only really tolerate so much, until it becomes a health issue and it effects your quality of life.
> 
> *I feel sad about Rhonda, and Cindy and Connie. They were all young women, and they lost all those years of life.*




The rest of you can go back and forth deciding what's healthy and what's not but this comment really needs to be bolded.

None of those 3 women lost their lives due to obesity. I've spoken to all 3 of them in my life and I knew one of them offline. I was close to Connie the whole time and I was one of the first to know she passed away.

You didn't know them and you have absolutely no idea how they died. The fact you lump them in with people who "died young due to obesity" is puzzling, disrespectful, wrong and overall stupid.

I can't believe even on a size acceptance website someone still looks at someone who dies and says "Oh yeah, they were too fat"


----------



## LillyBBBW

KHayes666 said:


> The rest of you can go back and forth deciding what's healthy and what's not but this comment really needs to be bolded.
> 
> None of those 3 women lost their lives due to obesity. I've spoken to all 3 of them in my life and I knew one of them offline. I was close to Connie the whole time and I was one of the first to know she passed away.
> 
> You didn't know them and you have absolutely no idea how they died. The fact you lump them in with people who "died young due to obesity" is puzzling, disrespectful, wrong and overall stupid.
> 
> *I can't believe even on a size acceptance website someone still looks at someone who dies and says "Oh yeah, they were too fat"*



Size acceptance is a myth, even here, and always will be. Wow.


----------



## KHayes666

LillyBBBW said:


> Size acceptance is a myth, even here, and always will be. Wow.



Sorry for posting on the BBW Forum but I felt that needed to be said.


----------



## LovelyLiz

When I was a kid (a fat kid), my mom would give me crap about my weight out of concern for my well-being. It was mostly out of concern for my emotional well-being, because she grew up fat and experienced a lot of ridicule and stigmatization for it. 

But the thing is, I was pretty widely well-liked by my peers, I was a strong leader, and hardly ever got picked on for my weight while growing up (or ever). As it turned out, the loudest and only consistent voice telling me "you are fat and therefore not okay" was coming from my mom, because she was concerned other people might tell me that, and wanted to "protect" me by having me lose weight.

Was her heart in the right place? Of course. She loves me very much and knows the world through her own experiences and really was trying to spare me some of the pain that she went through because of her weight. But as it turned out, my experiences were vastly different from her experiences - and her "warnings" were unnecessary and actually unhelpful.

I bring this up because it feels parallel to this issue. There are people here who are in their 40s saying now that they've gotten older, they really hate being fat and all the accompanying aches, pains, illnesses, etc. And I hear underneath this the idea that, "If I had known it would be this hard to be a fat 40-something when I was 20-something years old, I would have tried to lose weight or at least not gain weight." They are looking at their own lives and bad feelings about their own being fat and aging, and using that lens to view and judge the experiences of younger people.

Is this fair? Well, yes and no. On one hand we all have human bodies and, yes, having a lot of fat on human bodies simply does have certain repercussions on joints, etc. as a person ages. I don't think anyone would dispute this. However, the severity of the pain/discomfort caused, and how much weight it takes for this to happen, can vary widely. Yes, being fat will cause _more _pain as one ages - but people cope with pain differently, have different tolerances for it, etc.

So on the other hand, it really isn't fair to judge someone else's fat life by your own fat experiences. People are entitled to make compromises all the time - and if someone says, "Look, I am going to just live with the pain that will happen when I get older - but I choose to continue to live in a way that makes me stay fat/get fatter. I would rather be able to eat what I like and not deprive myself, rather than the alternative - even if that means more joint pain as I age." (As if this is really always a choice, but for the sake of argument, we'll say it is.) The response seems to be, "Well, youngun, you are only saying that because you don't know just how much it sucks! If you did, you would choose to be thinner, because if I had it to do over again that's what I'd do."

It's natural to want to spare other people the suffering that we experience, and I think it's a good inclination, even. But I don't think it's fair to think that if they only *really* knew what you know, they would make another decision. It's not that simple.


----------



## Emma

KHayes666 said:


> Sorry for posting on the BBW Forum but I felt that needed to be said.



No for once I agree with you. Your imput has been invaluble.


----------



## braindeadhead

"Death comes equally to us all, and makes us all equal when it comes." - John Donne


----------



## Carrie

LillyBBBW said:


> No reprogramming for me thanks, I'm trying to cut down.


Just for that, you're getting extra reprogramming. 



mcbeth said:


> When I was a kid (a fat kid), my mom would give me crap about my weight out of concern for my well-being. It was mostly out of concern for my emotional well-being, because she grew up fat and experienced a lot of ridicule and stigmatization for it.
> 
> But the thing is, I was pretty widely well-liked by my peers, I was a strong leader, and hardly ever got picked on for my weight while growing up (or ever). As it turned out, the loudest and only consistent voice telling me "you are fat and therefore not okay" was coming from my mom, because she was concerned other people might tell me that, and wanted to "protect" me by having me lose weight.
> 
> Was her heart in the right place? Of course. She loves me very much and knows the world through her own experiences and really was trying to spare me some of the pain that she went through because of her weight. But as it turned out, my experiences were vastly different from her experiences - and her "warnings" were unnecessary and actually unhelpful.
> 
> I bring this up because it feels parallel to this issue. There are people here who are in their 40s saying now that they've gotten older, they really hate being fat and all the accompanying aches, pains, illnesses, etc. And I hear underneath this the idea that, "If I had known it would be this hard to be a fat 40-something when I was 20-something years old, I would have tried to lose weight or at least not gain weight." They are looking at their own lives and bad feelings about their own being fat and aging, and using that lens to view and judge the experiences of younger people.
> 
> Is this fair? Well, yes and no. On one hand we all have human bodies and, yes, having a lot of fat on human bodies simply does have certain repercussions on joints, etc. as a person ages. I don't think anyone would dispute this. However, the severity of the pain/discomfort caused, and how much weight it takes for this to happen, can vary widely. Yes, being fat will cause _more _pain as one ages - but people cope with pain differently, have different tolerances for it, etc.
> 
> So on the other hand, it really isn't fair to judge someone else's fat life by your own fat experiences. People are entitled to make compromises all the time - and if someone says, "Look, I am going to just live with the pain that will happen when I get older - but I choose to continue to live in a way that makes me stay fat/get fatter. I would rather be able to eat what I like and not deprive myself, rather than the alternative - even if that means more joint pain as I age." (As if this is really always a choice, but for the sake of argument, we'll say it is.) The response seems to be, "Well, youngun, you are only saying that because you don't know just how much it sucks! If you did, you would choose to be thinner, because if I had it to do over again that's what I'd do."
> 
> It's natural to want to spare other people the suffering that we experience, and I think it's a good inclination, even. But I don't think it's fair to think that if they only *really* knew what you know, they would make another decision. It's not that simple.


This is such an excellent point. 

In thinking more about this, it occurs to me that a great deal of the things we worry and fret about in life are the things that speak to us most closely, things that have affected us most deeply. I used to worry and fret and tsk-tsk at those who seemed to throw caution to the wind and behave in ways that would contribute to weight gain, but when I finally stopped and took a long hard look at my thought process, I realized that what I was feeling was not 100% concern for them, but really much more about ME and what I was going through at the time and my own resulting headspace. For instance, I noticed that my mama bear tendencies on this particular topic went through the roof when I injured myself last year and was really struggling with my own mobility. I was frightened and anxious, and seeing younger women make choices that I felt would ultimately lead them down the same path felt almost like a slap in the face to me. Like, "Look at you, with your healthy joints and good mobility! You have no idea how good you have it, don't squander it!". Which I think is an entirely human thought, but not a terribly noble or attractive one, so I kind of shaped it in my mind to make it a bit more palatable, e.g. I am concerned for your welfare, that's why I'm saying this. When really, I was mostly just mad and envious. 

That's not to say that I (or anyone else in this thread) don't really care about my younger friends, of course I do; just that when I was brutally honest with myself, I could admit that the stuff I was feeling was not completely about them, and was a great deal about me and my own fears and regrets. The whole "if only you knew what it's going to feel like in ten years!" business is iffy, at best. People tend to make decisions based on their present reality, not a murky possible future. Hell, I doubt even I'd live very differently if I could go back in time, based with the same situations and challenges. My triggers for eating would still be there, and I'd still be the same person, after all.


----------



## butch

Why is this even on the BBW Forum? Why doesn't the experiences of fat men matter in this discussion?


----------



## LovelyLiz

Carrie said:


> That's not to say that I (or anyone else in this thread) don't really care about my younger friends, of course I do; just that when I was brutally honest with myself, I could admit that the stuff I was feeling was not completely about them, and was a great deal about me and my own fears and regrets. The whole "if only you knew what it's going to feel like in ten years!" business is iffy, at best. *People tend to make decisions based on their present reality, not a murky possible future. Hell, I doubt even I'd live very differently if I could go back in time, based with the same situations and challenges. My triggers for eating would still be there, and I'd still be the same person, after all.*



I think this is such a great point. Because saying, "Hey, don't do that! I did that and look where it got me!!!" doesn't take account of the fact that, hey, the reality is that you DID do it. You didn't live in an alternative way. Wishing and hoping and regretting is all well and good...but if you were not willing or able to make things go differently, how do you think someone else so easily will? (Not that change is impossible - but this "could have been" way of thinking doesn't take into account hard reality.)


----------



## Jes

mcbeth said:


> I think this is such a great point. Because saying, "Hey, don't do that! I did that and look where it got me!!!" doesn't take account of the fact that, hey, the reality is that you DID do it. You didn't live in an alternative way. Wishing and hoping and regretting is all well and good...but if you were not willing or able to make things go differently, how do you think someone else so easily will? (Not that change is impossible - but this "could have been" way of thinking doesn't take into account hard reality.)



The reverse is also true. I remember engaging with one SS woman who had a lot of fear about what mid-sized women were thinking about her. She was sure that smaller women were judging her and disgusted by her and all of that. And how did she know? Because she'd been mid-sized once...and had done all of the things she was now upset with mid-sized for doing (or what she THOUGHT they were doing). But the truth is, even when we're sure, deep in our heart of hearts, that someone is going to die as we say she is, or that she's feeling about us the way we think she is, we're not necessarily right. In her case, she was wrong.

Carrie's point, about her instincts coming out when she, herself, lost mobility, is very true, and something I've always believed as well. If you're fat, or you love someone who is, then I think issues of fatness will always be somewhat subjective. We don't have a lot of distance from the issue.


----------



## Carrie

Jes said:


> The reverse is also true. I remember engaging with one SS woman who had a lot of fear about what mid-sized women were thinking about her. She was sure that smaller women were judging her and disgusted by her and all of that. And how did she know? Because she'd been mid-sized once...and had done all of the things she was now upset with mid-sized for doing (or what she THOUGHT they were doing). But the truth is, even when we're sure, deep in our heart of hearts, that someone is going to die as we say she is, or that she's feeling about us the way we think she is, we're not necessarily right. In her case, she was wrong.
> 
> Carrie's point, about her instincts coming out when she, herself, lost mobility, is very true, and something I've always believed as well. If you're fat, or you love someone who is, then I think issues of fatness will always be somewhat subjective. We don't have a lot of distance from the issue.


Absolutely true. And what makes it especially challenging is that it's pretty easy for us (people, not specifically fat people) to equate passion stemmed from experiencing something extremely emotionally charged with universal truth, if that makes any sense? I catch myself doing this a fair amount.


----------



## Cat

Why do we, as women, and humans in general, try to draw comparisons to others? 

A woman at 400 lbs on one street corner has a completely different view and set of experiences of the 400 lb woman in the same city and on a different corner. The first woman looks down the street and sees the other with a cane, blonde flowing hair and a $200 pair of shoes. The first woman could say:

"Look at those expensive shoes. I wish I could afford them."

Or

"My hair will never flow like that. I'll never ever have beautiful hair like that. I hate my hair."

Or

"There but for the grace of god go I. I am glad I don't have a cane and that I can still walk."

Or

"Oh, look, another fat woman! I hardly ever see anyone else my size."

Or

"Look, it's another person."


All varied reactions based upon comparisons where the only similarity is in body size. *All to often, our reactions are based in envy, fear and self-hatred. The last two reactions are likely the least judgmental or based on internal struggles. There is a comparison, but there is no value judgment associated.

I saw in the original poster's words much judgment and comparison. Rather than embracing the people whom she knows to struggle, she is passing judgment on their choices and their lives in general.*

I would hope that as fat people, we could just accept each other as individuals...some struggling more than others, some succeeding more than others, and some similarly situated to ourselves.*

The grass may be greener or it may turn brown, but it's not our grass to mow nor water.


----------



## MissCrissi

mcbeth said:


> So on the other hand, it really isn't fair to judge someone else's fat life by your own fat experiences. People are entitled to make compromises all the time - and if someone says, "Look, I am going to just live with the pain that will happen when I get older - but I choose to continue to live in a way that makes me stay fat/get fatter. I would rather be able to eat what I like and not deprive myself, rather than the alternative - even if that means more joint pain as I age." (As if this is really always a choice, but for the sake of argument, we'll say it is.) The response seems to be, *"Well, youngun, you are only saying that because you don't know just how much it sucks! If you did, you would choose to be thinner, because if I had it to do over again that's what I'd do."*


I think this is something that all young people have experienced when talking to an older citizen who believes they are a sage. It doesn't even have to do with anything related to fat either. I've had plenty of older people try to tell me that they know exactly what I'm going through and that "I just don't know better". I think we all want to be able to impart wisdom to the young at some point in our lives(I'm going to be a Teacher, so I know this feeling all too well), but it's important to remind ourselves that generations DO drastically change, as much as some would like to pretend they don't. One generation's values could be incredibly different from the next thus some wisdom does not apply as readily to a younger generation as it did to an older one. Not to mention that a part of life is making mistakes and learning from them. When I still lived at home, my parents tried almost too hard to protect me from certain things and I pretty much laid it down that I wanted to experience the world and learn these things for myself. Or else I'd be real screwed when I'm out on my own and experience things way older than I should have been. 

Also, I think it's important to have the opinions of people other than BBWs when discussing this. Sometimes it's good for people to hear the opinions of others not directly in their position. I know it's probably easy to pretend that those "skinny" chicks are just that way to "fit in", but some of them have other issues that lead to their weight. My cousin for example: we always thought she was possibly bulimic or anorexic because she was always thin as a rail. Ends up, she has a thyroid problem. She's battled over the fact she's so thin and has no chest her whole life.


----------



## SocialbFly

I know i am taking this comment personally, but honestly, i feel a little judged by this comment..the "i am fat...but thank god i am not *THAT* fat"

you know, i have said, time and time again, it isnt just size that limits us, it is many many things...

i dont deny in my younger days, i felt like i was lucky to be the size i was and unlimited...at 50...(and obviously too miserable for some) i find my life has changed...but not only due to size...

i think it is awfully easy to blame our issues and problems on fat when it is so multi faceted...

do you blame other people and their disease processes for their problems??? only truly in obesity is the person who sometimes suffers due to their size so vilified...

compassion is something sorely needed in the world lately...and maybe it should start here.


----------



## Tracyarts

Something I was thinking about today...

I'm not so much afraid of dying, as I'm afraid of the period of suffering that happens first as your body deteriorates from the damage caused by a chronic illness.

Tracy


----------



## Weeze

Supero, can you tell us why you're fat? I mean, seriously. Why are you fat? This entire thing is so judgmental and really... anyone reading this knows you you're hinting about. Why do you feel the need to come here and be passive-aggressive like this? 
So, I mean... have I missed something? What makes you, and the cane I saw you with at the first jersey bash I went to, better than someone in the same predicament?


----------



## BeaBea

I haven't got the time or the energy to address all of your original post so I'll take this one point...


superodalisque said:


> i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me.



Your definition of 'unexplored and limited' is neither here nor there. We all get to choose our own path and its simply not your place to judge or to be 'sad' over someone else's choices.
As for the rest of your post, :doh: pretty much covers it.

Tracey


----------



## AnnMarie

Carrie said:


> Felecia, I don't even know that I disagree with all of what you're saying, but what's the value in starting a thread like this if you're going to tiptoe around your main points? It sounds as though the real issue you want to explore here is that you're concerned that the culture and atmosphere of Dims and fat appreciation sites and social events contribute towards what you consider "unhealthy choices" (which include, based on your own words in this thread, overeating, inactivity, and eating "unhealthy" foods). I actually think it's a very worthy topic, and certainly one on people's minds, albeit one rife with potential for heated debate.
> 
> That's what I'm getting stuck on, too, and wondering where I and most supersized women I know fit into this equation. I had my own reasons for being fat long before I ended up here, and even most of the feedees I know already identified as feedees and behaved as such before finding Dims, even if they didn't know the word for it yet. I'm not saying Dims, other fat admiration sites and whatnot have had _no_ mindset and behavioral impact on anyone, of course not. I'm quite certain they have. But for me, and I can only speak for me, I filter out the things here and there that don't work for me (e.g. eating something for effect, or for someone else's gratification) and focus on the things that do work for me (people who appreciate me and my body size, people who understand the challenges of living in a supersized body while fighting to remain body-positive, etc.). I struggle with compulsive and emotional eating, and I can honestly tell you that posting here has no effect on it. My eating issues are entirely internal and part of of my everyday life, and have nothing to do with some stranger on the internet (or someone I do know at a bash, for that matter) who thinks I'd look better with 50 more pounds on me. The very thought of that affecting my mindset is laughable. Honestly, watching Food Network is probably more dangerous in terms of encouraging excessive or fatty food consumption for someone like me than Dims. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty sure I'm not unique that way.



No, you're not unique. I weigh less now than I did many years ago... the idea that this place or something about it drives women to unhealthy habits they either don't want to have or didn't have before they got here is - well, it's another fine example of how no one on the boards - men or women - is apparently able to think, speak, or feel for themselves. 

Well, at least all the people that I know that think that that I've met in all these places I go and hear their stories from all over whatever. You know. Them.


----------



## AnnMarie

Carrie said:


> And I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of us would still be quite fat, on top of that.



Donuts. That came from here. 

Weak fatty.


----------



## ashmamma84

Cat said:


> Why do we, as women, and humans in general, try to draw comparisons to others?
> 
> A woman at 400 lbs on one street corner has a completely different view and set of experiences of the 400 lb woman in the same city and on a different corner. The first woman looks down the street and sees the other with a cane, blonde flowing hair and a $200 pair of shoes. The first woman could say:
> 
> "Look at those expensive shoes. I wish I could afford them."
> 
> Or
> 
> "My hair will never flow like that. I'll never ever have beautiful hair like that. I hate my hair."
> 
> Or
> 
> "There but for the grace of god go I. I am glad I don't have a cane and that I can still walk."
> 
> Or
> 
> "Oh, look, another fat woman! I hardly ever see anyone else my size."
> 
> Or
> 
> "Look, it's another person."
> 
> 
> All varied reactions based upon comparisons where the only similarity is in body size. **All to often, our reactions are based in envy, fear and self-hatred.* The last two reactions are likely the least judgmental or based on internal struggles. There is a comparison, but there is no value judgment associated.
> 
> I saw in the original poster's words much judgment and comparison. Rather than embracing the people whom she knows to struggle, she is passing judgment on their choices and their lives in general.*
> 
> I would hope that as fat people, we could just accept each other as individuals...some struggling more than others, some succeeding more than others, and some similarly situated to ourselves.*
> 
> The grass may be greener or it may turn brown, but it's not our grass to mow nor water.



Yes to the bolded part. 

Reminds me of some of the people who are so judgmental and vitriolic about being gay usually have their own issues with their sexuality. I know a man like that actually. My partner's uncle is such a miserable man anyhow. He's called us all kinds of dykes, bull daggers, etc. I really just thinking being around open, loving lesbians who really care less about what anyone thinks gets to him. It makes him uncomfortable because he's truly unhappy and dishonest with himself, though what he espouses is a very self-assured man's man. Ya' know, no homo and all that crap. Yet, he admitted to my partner, his niece that he's had sexual encounters and even a relationship with a man (though he's married to his wife of over 20 years). 

Things that make you go hmmm.

*not completely on topic but I wanted to share


----------



## dcoyote

olwen said:


> I totally agree with this. Nothing I can say or do; no amount of cajoling, negotiating, yelling, screaming, crying, rationalizing will make my alcoholic friend stop drinking. I realized a while ago that the more I tried to bring it up the more likely he was to pull away. Judging him just pissed him off and put him on the defensive. As it probably should cause who wants to be judged by anybody, but especially from people you care about? Ultimately, it's not my body or my life. If he wants to change he'll do it on his own in his own time. Does it mean I loose a friend? Yeah, but better to just stay away than to be around a surly drunk who I would begin to resent.



I agree too. Plus, alcoholics are the hardest to change. I'd honestly rather know people who are eating themselves to death, rather than drinking themselves to death. I've seen way too many die or are currently dieing from it. Some I've known were very violent too. Honestly, the way my grandfather is dieing now, which is the result of a lifetime of alcoholism, seems so much worse than any death caused by obesity. The way my dad's uncle died was pretty bad too- hypothermia/alcohol poisoning in an abandoned house. I wish we could change people, but they have to want the change.


----------



## BeaBea

dcoyote said:


> Honestly, the way my grandfather is dieing now, which is the result of a lifetime of alcoholism, seems so much worse than any death caused by obesity. The way my dad's uncle died was pretty bad too- hypothermia/alcohol poisoning in an abandoned house.



Umm, my Grandmother died of heart failure in her 90's in a warm comfortable bed surrounded by people she loved and it was STILL a horrible way to go. In my humble opinion there are few good ways or good times to die. 

Sometimes bodies fail and sometimes minds fail. We can all have moment of weakness and can all be susceptible to temptations that are as unique and singular as we are. My 'failings'* are visible on the outside of my body which makes me easy to judge - but I can still understand and sympathise with alcoholics and smokers even though I dont drink or smoke.

Judging other people for a vice you dont have doesnt help anyone. 
Judging other people for a vice you used to have is hypocritical in the extreme. 

We all carry our own burden and we all have to cope it with it as best we can. 

Tracey

* Other people apparently judge them as failings. I dont necessarily agree.


----------



## BBW4Chattery

AnnMarie said:


> No, you're not unique. I weigh less now than I did many years ago... the idea that this place or something about it drives women to unhealthy habits they either don't want to have or didn't have before they got here is - well, it's another fine example of how no one on the boards - men or women - is apparently able to think, speak, or feel for themselves.
> 
> Well, at least all the people that I know that think that that I've met in all these places I go and hear their stories from all over whatever. You know. Them.



Agreed (ps, out of rep, but laughed so hard at the "weak fatty" comment)...

I lost 90lbs when I was a part of this community years ago. It was only through the supportive friendships that I felt capable of such change.


----------



## AnnMarie

BBW4Chattery said:


> Agreed (ps, out of rep, but laughed so hard at the "weak fatty" comment)...
> 
> I lost 90lbs when I was a part of this community years ago. It was only through the supportive friendships that I felt capable of such change.



I think I've lost 9. I miss those pounds.


----------



## BBW4Chattery

AnnMarie said:


> I think I've lost 9. I miss those pounds.




Aww, I missed mine too... so I went and found them all and a few more. Ha. I suggest pizza as a sherpa to guide your way. Especially Papa Johns... oh dear Lord, I miss Papa John's with a most sincere pain. 18 months since I've had it... there's none here. 

Ok, no more thread hijacking with my fat girl lamentations. I just REALLY miss pizza. Last August, I honest to God shed a completely unintentional tear as I drove past a Papa John's...


----------



## Carrie

AnnMarie said:


> Donuts. That came from here.
> 
> Weak fatty.


I know. Come to fat camp with me as my mentor! I have so much to learn.


----------



## tonynyc

LoveBHMS said:


> You miss an important point.
> 
> My feelings may have nothing at all to do with somebody else's reality. I might feel all the sorrow, pity, and sadness in the world seeing a 400 pound woman unable to walk more than a few feet. But that 400 pound woman might be wildly turned on when she can't walk a flight of stairs or fit in a booth, so my feelings may not have fuck all to do with her feelings. If I don't necessarily want her life, that life may be something she actively pursued.
> 
> A fat woman may see gym rats as miserable self flagelating creatures who know no pleasure in life, while those "painfully" skinny women revel in their size 2 dresses and thrill to looking in the mirror and seeing ribcages. A lot of weight gain fiction stories deal with formerly fit and active women giving into a fat lifestyle, but the simple truth is not all women are unhappy while sweating or rejecting cheesecake or The Bacon Fairy.
> 
> *I can look at a woman and feel sorry for her limitations while she looks at me and thinks the money I spend each month to belong to a gym is better spent on truffles.** I may pity her sweating when she waddles a block while she may pity me wasting my life on a treadmill. But the simple truth is we're both doing what we want to do to fulfill the emotional and physical lives we want*.



So true - you can certainly have two groups that on the surface can appear to be polar opposites. 

Of course the ideal is to enjoy some truffles after a workout. :happy:

I think a lot has to do with steroetypes of the "gym culture" can be what is relayed by the media, popular exercise programs (ie Biggest Loser) and the unfortunate prejudices of some (even within the fitness community). 

Everything in life comes with a price - I have seen "fit" folks who lead the most unhealthy lifestyles.... 

Heck, I had a college firend who would follow the bodybuilding magazines religously and all the "advice" that was listed. I would warn the guy about the number of pills that he would be ingesting with each meal at least 20 a time) - good way to blow out your system ;but, he was seton following this 
"plan"...

At the end of the day- it's all about free choice ...whether someone chooses to workout or not. And being a gym rat of sorts - it's not all wohat it's cracked up to be- you still get the occassional aches and pains 



KHayes666 said:


> Sorry for posting on the BBW Forum but I felt that needed to be said.



Well - it's in the Main Board- so it will be niceto see what some of the other perspectives are. 



butch said:


> Why is this even on the BBW Forum? Why doesn't the experiences of fat men matter in this discussion?



Excellent point- I think the fact that this is in an open forum will lead to some postings and further discussions by BHM and BBWs. I think folks for the most part do approach BHM differently


----------



## NoWayOut

Cat said:


> Why do we, as women, and humans in general, try to draw comparisons to others?
> 
> A woman at 400 lbs on one street corner has a completely different view and set of experiences of the 400 lb woman in the same city and on a different corner. The first woman looks down the street and sees the other with a cane, blonde flowing hair and a $200 pair of shoes. The first woman could say:
> 
> "Look at those expensive shoes. I wish I could afford them."
> 
> Or
> 
> "My hair will never flow like that. I'll never ever have beautiful hair like that. I hate my hair."
> 
> Or
> 
> "There but for the grace of god go I. I am glad I don't have a cane and that I can still walk."
> 
> Or
> 
> "Oh, look, another fat woman! I hardly ever see anyone else my size."
> 
> Or
> 
> "Look, it's another person."
> 
> 
> All varied reactions based upon comparisons where the only similarity is in body size. *All to often, our reactions are based in envy, fear and self-hatred. The last two reactions are likely the least judgmental or based on internal struggles. There is a comparison, but there is no value judgment associated.
> 
> I saw in the original poster's words much judgment and comparison. Rather than embracing the people whom she knows to struggle, she is passing judgment on their choices and their lives in general.*
> 
> I would hope that as fat people, we could just accept each other as individuals...some struggling more than others, some succeeding more than others, and some similarly situated to ourselves.*
> 
> The grass may be greener or it may turn brown, but it's not our grass to mow nor water.



I think that's well explained. I've never understood why we're always comparing as a society. There's no reason for it.


----------



## Emma

What about you superodalisque? You're over 400lbs and you're cresting 50 years old? Don't you plan to live to 60?! Isn't it about time you cut down on the eating and got to the gym?!? Seriously though, I'm SO worried about people like you  You're always eating and pretending like being 400lbs is ok at your age but I worry about you. SERIOUSLY. are you not scared you're about to die? I'm SO concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Emma

.............


----------



## MizzSnakeBite

Wow. Just wow.

I hope everyone feels better now. Seriously.


----------



## Emma

<3

at least 10


----------



## mossystate

..............


----------



## cinnamitch

Oh my goodness. I might not agree with what Super said in a lot of ways, but seems like there is some leeway in allowing personal insults against her. We aren't supposed to allow it on other boards, is it because this subject is offensive to a lot of folks that it's ok to be insulting? If that's the case, well i will back out quietly and wait for civil discussions on HP..


----------



## AnnMarie

cinnamitch said:


> Oh my goodness. I might not agree with what Super said in a lot of ways, but seems like there is some leeway in allowing personal insults against her. We aren't supposed to allow it on other boards, is it because this subject is offensive to a lot of folks that it's ok to be insulting? If that's the case, well i will back out quietly and wait for civil discussions on HP..




Please use the report feature to report any personal attacks against any member of the boards... they are all seen and reviewed by the entire moderation team and webmaster. 

Thank you.


----------



## sweet&fat

How is the whole disdain for "doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect" anything but another version of the dismay/shame expressed in thinguy4bbw's thread about SS/BBWs eating in public? A matter of degree, perhaps, but the basic reaction of the OP seems very much the same. Stereotypical ideas of what is and is not appropriate for fat women to do. Sad.


----------



## collared Princess

Its my belive that when we were born we had a set time to die..
I also belive that eating unhealthy is unhealty..
For the most part it is best to stick to whole grain breads and pasta's..limit meat to fish and chicken..over eating on the meat 
Take red yeast rice to reduce high cholesterol,cinnonmon to reduce sugar in your blood and garlic to bring down your blood pressure..
Of coarse yummy binges from time to time but not always..
They say you never see a fat old person..I worked in a nursing home at one time and there were plenty of fat old people..
In my opinion I think the reason that it seems very fat people pass away is because we tend to be afraid of doctors and shy away from medical prevention just to save the drama.
I just got out of the hospital with a uti and possible kidney stones..They put me on the heart floor and did test after test on my heart because my potassium levels were a bit elevated..after test for this and that came back fine they said hum..well everything looks good..
Try to live a stress free life..maybe do some yoga drink lots and lots of water..get a doctor that doesnt make you feel bad and dont be afraid to get tests done..get blood work done often..if there is a rise in this or that look for the all natural way to bring it up or down,,and just try to enjoy life tomorrow isnt promised to anyone


----------



## KHayes666

cinnamitch said:


> Oh my goodness. I might not agree with what Super said in a lot of ways, but seems like there is some leeway in allowing personal insults against her. We aren't supposed to allow it on other boards, is it because this subject is offensive to a lot of folks that it's ok to be insulting? If that's the case, well i will back out quietly and wait for civil discussions on HP..



I agree with you in the sense that some are being way too harsh.

I've met Supero in real life and I know she's not a rotten, horrible person. Sure a lot of us may disagree to what she has to say but over the top insults are uncalled for.

Now back on topic:

My grandfather just had another stroke 3 days after his 83rd birthday. He never took care of himself when he was younger. He smoked, drank and barely ate until a stroke in 1995 changed him. My grandmother took care of him until she died of cancer on New Year's Eve 1996-97, then it was up to my mother.

My mother has had to cook him lunch and dinner for the last 13 years, because he won't do it himself. He's been hospitalized for malnutrition and dehydration over the years because he just doesn't eat or drink. 

I will never understand the life of a fat woman because I am not one nor will I ever, but one thing I do understand is that death will come knocking for ANYONE that doesn't take care of themselves. Its not a size thing, race thing or culture thing...death doesn't care who you are.

It doesn't matter if you're fat, thin, an olympic sprinter or a professional food taster...if you don't take care of yourself you will face the consequences later in life. Those who say obesity is automatic death is as wrong as someone who see's the appearance of a thin gothic girl who smokes, drinks and snorts coke as "thin and healthy".


----------



## Wagimawr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9eQ8_T1ytU


----------



## imfree

Wagimawr said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9eQ8_T1ytU



Truly, Wag, It is appointed unto man once to die.
Spike TV's 1000 Ways To Die's intro goes through
a bunch of ways. "Blend-Dead" is relevant to our
thread. Shantner was great, by the way.

1000 Ways To Die "Blend-Dead"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2uivmDJWTU


----------



## mango

*I've read through the whole thread but I'll address my thoughts on the OP and I realise that it was originally posted and only originally intended for the BBW forum (and then later moved here).*



superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related.



*Yes there have been deaths. 
In a community as vast as this one is, this is inevitable.
Someone in a previous post in this thread mentioned afew names of recently deceased members who fit into this category.

I can't say I know the details and circumstances of each of those (or others) but the one that I did hear some of the details about (who I won't name) had less to do with her size and more to do with medical negligence (read: current state of the US healthcare system), incorrect diagnoses and plain old fat prejudice.

I know nothing of the circumstances of the other deaths - but I don't see how you can jump to the conclusion you are making without knowing all (or any) of the medical backgrounds or facts which led to those events.* 




superodalisque said:


> sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet.



*I understand your fears but I believe you may be a little hoodwinked by the huge anti-obesity propoganda prevalent in today's media & medicine that still uses outdated modes of assessment like BMI's (proven to be total BS) and other unfounded "facts".

I'll go out on a limb and say that at least half of today's 'medical breakthroughs' will be tomorrow's 'junk science'. You only need to look at medical advice from 20, 30 & 40 years ago to see how much its changed, evolved and even flip-flopped.

One thing I should point out is the all too common misconception (and no.. I'm not a doctor lol) that being large = being unhealthy.
It's a broad generalization that really does more harm than good.
An individual can be healthy, 'fat & fit' above 400 lbs while another individual may suffer problems at 350... or 250... or 120. 
It really is up to a person's particular genetics, susceptibilities, allergies etc

And I don't know what 'old lady diseases' you are referring to. *



superodalisque said:


> it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.



*I think that it's great that you are looking after yourself and paying attention to your health BUT I don't think it's fair of you to judge others who appear to not do what you do as living 'unexplored and limited' lives.

Are you saying that people over 400 lbs don't live life to the fullest? 
I know more than enough examples to the contrary.

Or are you saying that they are living 'unexplored and limited' lives due to expensive international air fares and unevolved/prejudiced airline policies?
Maybe these people of size (and plenty of others) are bound to their continent by means outside their control (economical). *



superodalisque said:


> i'm not anti fat at all.



*Yes. I know you aren't... but you sure have a funny way of expressing it.
:doh:*



superodalisque said:


> i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you?



*As I stated before, when is it too much really depends on the individual. You chose 400 lbs as some sort of marker. That could be fine for some people and somewhat or very problematic for others.

The bad health and misery you refer to can be applied to anyone and any group.*




superodalisque said:


> do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



*The sentiment here really threw me abit.

Someone earlier in this thread alluded to thinguy4bbw's 'junk science' and massive broad assumptions about 'bad habits' and what fat women should and shouldn't eat in public.

'Eating cupcakes for effect' - is that a bad habit? and why?
I've yet to hear about a fat girl being forced to eat cupcakes (although I'm sure there's a fantasy in there somewhere) so I'll assume that its a choice they are free to make. But why is this bad and/or inappropriate?
Is 'for effect' referring to gaining weight as a goal?
Would it be better if the cupcakes were multi-grain? or gluten-free? 
Would it taste the same?

Would you rather they eat a croissant for effect?? *


*Felecia,

I've known you a long time and I can see your concerns, but I really can't grasp at the point you are trying to make here other than raise some unfounded alarm bells and make some pretty harsh judgements based on outdated stereotypes.

Honestly, I'm a little disappointed and I thought you were smarter than that. I attended several NAAFA conventions afew years ago which were in conjunction with the HAES (Health At Every Size) Medical Convention. And I know you attended them too because I saw you there. Did you speak with any of the medical practitioners at those events?

Maybe you haven't expressed clearly what you were trying to say. 

I'm not surprised to see many people here who may have thought they knew you to be puzzled, shocked and even offended by your statements. I'm afraid I fall somewhere in that group too.

Cheers.

*


----------



## Shosh

KHayes666 said:


> The rest of you can go back and forth deciding what's healthy and what's not but this comment really needs to be bolded.
> 
> None of those 3 women lost their lives due to obesity. I've spoken to all 3 of them in my life and I knew one of them offline. I was close to Connie the whole time and I was one of the first to know she passed away.
> 
> You didn't know them and you have absolutely no idea how they died. The fact you lump them in with people who "died young due to obesity" is puzzling, disrespectful, wrong and overall stupid.
> 
> I can't believe even on a size acceptance website someone still looks at someone who dies and says "Oh yeah, they were too fat"



Kevin give me a break, I was not disrespectful in any way. I just said I was sad to see those three women die so young, and miss out on so many years of life.
From what I understand about Connie's death, she had problems with her heart. I was told that by a close friend of hers.
She was only in her early thirties, and she was 600 + pounds.

I am sorry but yes I do feel sad about the loss of someone so young, when it could be largely prevented.

I do not think that flies in the face of size acceptance. It is what it is.


----------



## Wagimawr

fat never bad - am I crazy?

(sorry. meme from another place and time but I had to say it.)


----------



## KHayes666

Shosh said:


> Kevin give me a break, I was not disrespectful in any way. I just said I was sad to see those three women die so young, and miss out on so many years of life.
> From what I understand about Connie's death, she had problems with her heart. I was told that by a close friend of hers.
> She was only in her early thirties, and she was 600 + pounds.
> 
> I am sorry but yes I do feel sad about the loss of someone so young, when it could be largely prevented.
> 
> I do not think that flies in the face of size acceptance. It is what it is.



She died of a stomach infection, her heart was what was strong with her actually.

She told me this PERSONALLY, no friend or outside scource, her herself.

Stop making assumptions that people die from simply being supersized, its really wrong.


----------



## Shosh

KHayes666 said:


> She died of a stomach infection, her heart was what was strong with her actually.
> 
> She told me this PERSONALLY, no friend or outside scource, her herself.
> 
> Stop making assumptions that people die from simply being supersized, its really wrong.



Well that goes against what a person very close to her told me, she may have had a stomach infection, but she also had chronic heart failure as well.

That is beside the point. She was so young, and her life was cut short. It really is tragic Kevin, any way you look at it.


----------



## LoveBHMS

CurvyEm said:


> What about you superodalisque? You're over 400lbs and you're cresting 50 years old? Don't you plan to live to 60?! Isn't it about time you cut down on the eating and got to the gym?!? Seriously though, I'm SO worried about people like you  You're always eating and pretending like being 400lbs is ok at your age but I worry about you. SERIOUSLY. are you not scared you're about to die? I'm SO concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I've been wondering about this too. There are tons of posters on here, myself included, who are in their forties and nowhere close to your size. So I have to wonder if you're interested in hearing how others think about you? I've formed no opinion since I dont' know you and don't know how or why you weigh 400 pounds, but I would very much like to know if you address any and all of your health issues and, if any of them are weight related, what steps are you taking to lose weight?


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

Jes said:


> I also feel that most established diets don't work (which we hear here a lot), and that losing (and keeping off) weight is very, very difficult. So I find it confusing when someone who eats a lot and enjoys the gain says* 'If it proves too much when I'm older, I'll just lose the weight!' I think that may be naivete. I thought diets didn't work?* That's also hard to read.



This. I don't feel sorry for the young girls gaining and loving life, but it seriously irritates me when they say "I'll just lose it later". How???? Diets don't work, it's a proven fact. To say you can just lose it later is pure ignorance. You reap what you sow.


----------



## LillyBBBW

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> This. I don't feel sorry for the young girls gaining and loving life, but it seriously irritates me when they say "I'll just lose it later". How???? Diets don't work, it's a proven fact. To say you can just lose it later is pure ignorance. You reap what you sow.



It's actually quite easy. Deliberate gaining usually involves effort. Once you stop that effort, the gaining stops and you will return to whatever you return to. If you are gaining with no effort at all this is not voluntary and is therefore not the same. It takes effort to stop gaining and reverse direction and that is why diets don't work. The only thing more difficult than losing deliberately is gaining deliberately. Trust me, it's true.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

LillyBBBW said:


> It's actually quite easy. Deliberate gaining usually involves effort. Once you stop that effort, the gaining stops and you will return to whatever you return to. If you are gaining with no effort at all this is not voluntary and is therefore not the same. It takes effort to stop gaining and reverse direction and that is why diets don't work. The only thing more difficult than losing deliberately is gaining deliberately. Trust me, it's true.



my experience is quite opposite. my body easily gains weight and holds onto that weight for dear life even when I diet. 

I don't think the reason diets dont work is that it is hard to reverse gaining. There are studies that show that diets dont work. People of all different sizes know that diets dont work. And Im not talking short term. I mean 5 years after the fact. Diets do work short term to lose a little weight...but it is extremely rare to keep it off for 5 years or more. 

In my experience gaining 100lbs has been easier than losing 10. I think a lot of people will find the same when their time comes...your stomach stretches so that you need to eat more to feel like you aren't starving...and if you have gotten so fat your mobility suffers, you can't exercise or do much at all except sit around and eat. I'm talking from experience here.

I am the girl that Felicia is talking about. At 20 years old I was 565lbs. I had a good life. I was active, I was involved in theatre, student government and several other things. My weight never ever got in my way. Fast forward 12 years and I got up to 640lbs...due to change in circumstances and that 30 year old metabolism drop and I got stuck. It was all fun and games in the beginning and I never missed out. I had loads of friends, held jobs, went to clubs, etc. I was a normal 20 year old girl...even at 565 lbs. If I could go back, I don't know if I would do things any differently. I'm just having to deal with what I have sowed...and I am.


----------



## LillyBBBW

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> my experience is quite opposite. my body easily gains weight and holds onto that weight for dear life even when I diet.
> 
> I don't think the reason diets dont work is that it is hard to reverse gaining. There are studies that show that diets dont work. People of all different sizes know that diets dont work. And Im not talking short term. I mean 5 years after the fact. Diets do work short term to lose a little weight...but it is extremely rare to keep it off for 5 years or more.
> 
> In my experience gaining 100lbs has been easier than losing 10. I think a lot of people will find the same when their time comes...your stomach stretches so that you need to eat more to feel like you aren't starving...and if you have gotten so fat your mobility suffers, you can't exercise or do much at all except sit around and eat. I'm talking from experience here.
> 
> I am the girl that Felicia is talking about. At 20 years old I was 565lbs. I had a good life. I was active, I was involved in theatre, student government and several other things. My weight never ever got in my way. Fast forward 12 years and I got up to 640lbs...due to change in circumstances and that 30 year old metabolism drop and I got stuck. It was all fun and games in the beginning and I never missed out. I had loads of friends, held jobs, went to clubs, etc. I was a normal 20 year old girl...even at 565 lbs. If I could go back, I don't know if I would do things any differently. I'm just having to deal with what I have sowed...and I am.



Gaining is *definitely* not for you then. Wise choice.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

LillyBBBW said:


> Gaining is *definitely* not for you then. Wise choice.



TOO LATE LILLY!!!!! lmao. Where were you when I was 18?!?!?!


----------



## LillyBBBW

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> TOO LATE LILLY!!!!! lmao. Where were you when I was 18?!?!?!



Ooo, is this a smoking gun BPD?  Did you gain deliberately?


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

LillyBBBW said:


> Ooo, is this a smoking gun BPD?  Did you gain deliberately?



I dont mention this much but yes, there was some intentional gaining...and yes I do have serious feedee tendencies. However, after 600 it became a run away train. I used to be able to diet down to 480 all the time and just played around with it. (I cant believe Im admitting this!) But yeah...it got away from me...and if it got away from me after 12 years of control and fun...Im sure it could happen to anyone.

Take for instance Ashley. I totally relate to her...that was me from about 18-30......and it was great. Then the train ran away and derailed and I cant get control again...which isn't rare according to studies of the super super duper obese. There is often a threshold upon which there is no return. Im not going to re do the research to post the papers, lol, so you'll just have to believe me.

I can tell you however that I am a feedee...though retired at the moment. And yes I have gained on purpose. From 402-565 was on purpose....and I loved every minute of it. I was young and enjoying life.


----------



## LillyBBBW

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> I dont mention this much but yes, there was some intentional gaining...and yes I do have serious feedee tendencies. However, after 600 it became a run away train. I used to be able to diet down to 480 all the time and just played around with it. (I cant believe Im admitting this!) But yeah...it got away from me...and if it got away from me after 12 years of control and fun...Im sure it could happen to anyone.
> 
> Take for instance Ashley. I totally relate to her...that was me from about 18-30......and it was great. Then the train ran away and derailed and I cant get control again...which isn't rare according to studies of the super super duper obese. There is often a threshold upon which there is no return. Im not going to re do the research to post the papers, lol, so you'll just have to believe me.
> 
> I can tell you however that I am a feedee...though retired at the moment. And yes I have gained on purpose. From 402-565 was on purpose....and I loved every minute of it. I was young and enjoying life.




Sorry to drag it out of you BPD It does paint a better picture of things though. Up till now you've made it seem as though yours was a body and appetite out of control. That is something completely different from a gainer.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

LillyBBBW said:


> Sorry to drag it out of you BPD It does paint a better picture of things though. Up till now you've made it seem as though yours was a body and appetite out of control. That is something completely different from a gainer.



They are out of control now......but it hasn't always been that way. Its just been in the last 2 years that things really got out of control. And I seriously think moving to the UK had a lot to do with it just because I don't have the same opportunities to get out and about to balance out my intake like I used to. O well, live and learn  I don't really regret anything though. Even if things comes to an abrupt end on Monday, I still lived a good fulfilled life and was pretty true to myself.


----------



## Juice

I agree with Ashley. I am fed up with people telling me that I will die. I've had enough of people telling me I am too fat to fit, too fat to go, too fat to do, I DON'T need this too fat to live on top. 

I would lie if I said that my weight doesn't affect my health. I feel it every day, I can't stand for more than 10 minutes and a 3 minute walk leaves me out of breath. Some fat women might be fit. I am not. I suffer from a lot of 'old ladies diseases' because I am fat. I know it. I just don't want to hear it all the time. I am tired of avoiding going to the doctor even for a simple tooth ache because even the dentist will mention how fat i've become. Maybe that is one of the reasons fat people die young. They are afraid to go to the doctor.


----------



## Jes

LillyBBBW said:


> Trust me, it's true.



Well I think one thing we're learning here in this thread, which I still consider to be one that has value, is that what's true for your fat body isn't true for all. It's a gamble. And I hope that when someone gains intentionally, man or woman, and acknowledges that risks are taken or sacrifices are made (which it seems to me everyone seems to be referencing in this thread), and that it's 'totally fine,' that it continues to be totally fine for that person. I honestly mean that; I hate the thought of someone dying young. Of anyone dying young.


----------



## joswitch

Jes said:


> Well I think one thing we're learning here in this thread, which I still consider to be one that has value, is that what's true for your fat body isn't true for all. It's a gamble. And I hope that when someone gains intentionally, man or woman, and acknowledges that risks are taken or sacrifices are made (which it seems to me everyone seems to be referencing in this thread), and that it's 'totally fine,' that it continues to be totally fine for that person. I honestly mean that; *I hate the thought of someone dying young. Of anyone dying young.*



I had a good friend who lived in a larger than life manner...
He was great guy, decent and kind... 
He was a pretty fearless rock climber...
And he died at the age of 24... 
He had been leading a climb on Snowdon....
So he was free-climbing (ropeless, taking the rope up for those who were to follow) and he fell...
He was killed outright, there and then....

There were probably a couple of hundred people at his his funeral...
His family, friends from college and his church, people he'd helped in his life....
He lived his life boldly and without compromising what he loved....
And because of that he effected a great many people around him in a positive way....

He is very greatly missed...
(I'm tearing up just typing this and it was nearly 16 years ago)
But I don't think that any of us would've wished he had been less bold....
That was such an essential part of his personality...
This might sound strange, but I think his fearlessness was a big part of what made him a kind and decent bloke....

Anyway, my point:
*Worse than dying young - is dying without first having lived your life.
And what comprises a life well lived differs from one person to another.*
For my friend climbing was an essential part of life.
The measure of a life is not its length, but the joy and love experienced during it... 
His life might have been longer, but he would've been less joyful, and less himself without the climbing....
(Better to live one day as lion... and all that...)

Other people feel / choose differently.
Their choices are no more or less valid.



And to address SuperO / Felicia's OP, one thing that I picked out from her concern for some of the people around her (leaving aside the controversial parts that have been thoroughly discussed) - is that: 
SuperO gets the impression that those people - themselves - do not feel they are living their lives to the full... If that impression is true - well, that is a genuine cause for her concern as a friend.... BUT - the "solution" for those people may or may not have something to do with weight, and her input may or may not be welcomed by those people... 
^That is in contrast with those folks on DIMs who have pointed out, often repeatedly, that they ARE living their lives to the full, for all that their vision of a life fulfilled may not be what Felicia herself desires (e.g. not as long, or not as mobile, or....) ...

Every individual is different in what makes them tick...
Vive la difference!


----------



## joswitch

KHayes666 said:


> I agree with you in the sense that some are being way too harsh.
> 
> I've met Supero in real life and I know she's not a rotten, horrible person. Sure a lot of us may disagree to what she has to say but over the top insults are uncalled for.
> 
> Now back on topic:
> 
> My grandfather just had another stroke 3 days after his 83rd birthday. He never took care of himself when he was younger. He smoked, drank and barely ate until a stroke in 1995 changed him. My grandmother took care of him until she died of cancer on New Year's Eve 1996-97, then it was up to my mother.
> 
> My mother has had to cook him lunch and dinner for the last 13 years, because he won't do it himself. *He's been hospitalized for malnutrition and dehydration over the years because he just doesn't eat or drink. *



Somewhat off topic:
My ex-gfs very elderly grandad was the same... I think a fair few old fellas just think "what's the point" and are unwilling to take care of themselves, cos they feel basically useless and are just waiting to die... Sad as that might seem...


----------



## thirtiesgirl

superodalisque said:


> the things thats different about all of this though is that i can't imagine people actually cheering my mother on as she lay dying and smoking on her deathbed. but i can imagine people doing the equivalent for a fat women eating--however unknowingly. what kind of culture are we creating for each other? i have a friend now who is really trying to watch her weight for her health issues. she's been very open with that to everyone and her fans keep insisting on sending her things like cupcales even though they know how bad her health is right now. i just can't understand it.



This is why I don't like the feeder/gaining aspect of the FA scene. I'm really not into having anyone tell me what they want me to do with my body, whether it's gaining or losing weight. When I'm discussing size acceptance with people who are new to the concept, it's also why I usually mention health at every size, so they understand that I'm not saying everyone on the planet needs to be fat, that doing exercise one enjoys and practicing intuitive eating _can be_ options. They don't _have to_ be; again, it's always a personal choice. But there are options for enjoyable physical activities and eating habits that are not exclusionary to and oppressive of fat people.

That said, though, HAES and intuitive eating are not things I often preach to fat people who already know. And not things I preach to fat people who _don't_ know (although those people are few and far between). What they choose to do with their bodies is completely up to them and it's not my business to tell them otherwise. If the person is a family member or close friend, I'll definitely express my concern, but I'll leave it at that. Because as much as it may frustrate and anger us to think about a friend or family member making unhealthy lifestyle choices, all we can do is express our concern. We can't convince them to change their mind, change their ways. They can only do that for themselves, when they're ready. And if that's not a choice they're going to make, we have to work on accepting it and continue to love them for who they are.

Which is easily 'said' on an internet forum and much harder to put in practice, I certainly know. But judgment of and anger at a friend or family member who is making choices that we might not make for ourselves is not going to make them change their ways. We can only offer our support, friendship, love and lack of judgment, whether they're taking steps to make lifestyle changes, eat more healthfully and/or intuitively and practice HAES, or not. That's what they need from us, just as we need it from them.


----------



## Jes

joswitch said:


> Somewhat off topic:
> My ex-gfs very elderly grandad was the same... I think a fair few old fellas just think "what's the point" and are unwilling to take care of themselves, cos they feel basically useless and are just waiting to die... Sad as that might seem...



I'm not sure I understand--are you saying that some of the very fat or very unhealthy people here are not taking care of themselves and are just waiting to die?


----------



## CrankySpice

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



Have you lost your ever-lovin' mind? Really, I'm asking truthfully. Because I cannot comprehend how you can wholly and completely condemn women YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW on the one hand, and then claim to be an all-accepting, all-loving deity on the other. 

Really, I'm just.....completely baffled. I mean, I've witnessed your duality before in contrary posts under different threads. Normally there is some distance either in time or board proximity when you claim to support both sides of a controversial issue. But you are clearly demonstrating your schizophrenic thought processes in one tidy little post here. Which tells me it is escalating, which leads me back to my first question. Because I can't really comprehend any other explanation.


----------



## joswitch

Jes said:


> I'm not sure I understand--are you saying that some of the very fat or very unhealthy people here are not taking care of themselves and are just waiting to die?



No - I was specifically, and only, referring to old fellas (who seem to have lost the will to live)... That's why I said - "off topic"...
Nothing to do with the rest of the thread.


----------



## Ernest Nagel

Does anything change for anyone if they're in a committed long-term relationship? Do you feel you'd owe your partner any consideration if s/he was concerned your size was jeopardizing your health and/or quality of life?

Also, if a Significant Other accepts your choices/lifestyle do they bear any responsibility for your size-related premature death or disability? Do you think they'll be able to absolve themselves of blame? Will anyone else hold them complicit? Or do you think "true love" simply transcends these concerns?

If you read my earlier post in this thread it's apparent I have an opinion based on my personal experience. My decisions in this regard are the most painful I've ever had to make. I question them daily, just as I expect I would if I'd chosen differently. For me I guess it comes down to what does 'being supportive' really mean? When emotional and physical well-being are in direct contention what takes precedence? Is it more selfish to want someone in your life as long as possible or to just concede to someone you love and care about, regardless of the consequences?

FTR I asked SuperO's permission to post the first time. If the thread had stayed on the BBW board I wouldn't have felt appropriate asking these questions there. I think it's something some FA's would rather not deal with but sooner or later many will.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

Ernest Nagel said:


> Does anything change for anyone if they're in a committed long-term relationship? Do you feel you'd owe your partner any consideration if s/he was concerned your size was jeopardizing your health and/or quality of life?
> 
> Also, if a Significant Other accepts your choices/lifestyle do they bear any responsibility for your size-related premature death or disability? Do you think they'll be able to absolve themselves of blame? Will anyone else hold them complicit? Or do you think "true love" simply transcends these concerns?
> 
> If you read my earlier post in this thread it's apparent I have an opinion based on my personal experience. My decisions in this regard are the most painful I've ever had to make. I question them daily, just as I expect I would if I'd chosen differently. For me I guess it comes down to what does 'being supportive' really mean? When emotional and physical well-being are in direct contention what takes precedence? Is it more selfish to want someone in your life as long as possible or to just concede to someone you love and care about, regardless of the consequences?
> 
> FTR I asked SuperO's permission to post the first time. If the thread had stayed on the BBW board I wouldn't have felt appropriate asking these questions there. I think it's something some FA's would rather not deal with but sooner or later many will.



To be honest, this is a whole new can of worms....and I dont know how to directly answer.


----------



## superodalisque

Weeze said:


> Supero, can you tell us why you're fat? I mean, seriously. Why are you fat? This entire thing is so judgmental and really... anyone reading this knows you you're hinting about. Why do you feel the need to come here and be passive-aggressive like this?
> So, I mean... have I missed something? What makes you, and the cane I saw you with at the first jersey bash I went to, better than someone in the same predicament?




i'm not better than anyone at all. i had the benefit of not being born during a time when they weren't putting steroids and all kinds of other nonsense in out foods. its true i use a cane sometimes. i had back surgery relating to an old car accident. i'm proud of how far i've come. i had a walker right after surgery and i was up and walking that day. my back is great now but i still have nerve damage in my feet from having my spinal cord damaged. i'm working on that. neuropathy from nerve damage is yucky and takes a really long time to heal if ever completely. other than that i'm healthy--knock wood.

i'm fat because i eat more than i expend energy. but like a lot of other women here i watch what i eat even though i don't diet. i don't feel i have to die to be fat. so i try not to eat too many things with a lot of dyes, hormones and preservatives etc..., which means i can still have anything i want but just in a conscious way. i don't want to be another stereotype either. i want to be fat and healthy so that people who are on the outside can see it can be done. i was very strong and robust even at 410 before back surgery and i miss it. i do have a thyroid condition but it doesn't account for all of my weight. since i've been on synthroid i have lost about 80lbs but i have plenty left over.

i posted this because i thought it should be. we dance around a lot. keep silent about a lot. we keep a lot of secrets that aren't secrets to anyone. its all very political. but the personal thing is how you feel when your friends get sick or die. its not about one upsmanship. i have lost so many people. you have no idea. your not supposed to talk about it here. there is something unhealthy about that. and yes, seeing those things happen effects how i feel about myself and what choices i make. it should. if it didn't there would be something wrong with me. it also scares me realizing there are people around who don't have much of a sense of their own mortality because they haven't had friends that they know well die before. hopefully if people are honest and open about it, it won't take actually losing a friend before somebody takes better care of themselves.

for people who've taken this as a personal affront, i can understand that. i don't have any problem with it. you can be angry at me if you really need to be.


----------



## Webmaster

Ernest Nagel said:


> ...For me I guess it comes down to what does 'being supportive' really mean? ...



That is an interesting issue. Fat people are endlessly subjected to unsolicited, albeit supposedly well-meaning advice from family, friends, the general public and the media to lose weight. Even the worst fat-phobic put-downs often contain the usual, "it's for their own good" disclaimer. So does that mean that a loving spouse should join in the chorus and pressure to get a partner to lose weight, because, after all, it's for the loved one's own good?

You could argue that to accept, love and admire someone for who and what they are is a good thing for both sides, but does love then mean nagging the other to change so as to better minimize actuarial mortality tables? If that is so, then someone who shares and supports my own passions for certain sports and activities is not doing me a favor at all, as those sports carry substantial risks.

I think when all is said and done, it, as does almost everything, comes down to common sense. 

I was reminded of that just yesterday when I took my son to a large waterpark where there was a lifeguard every 15 feet or so, and every little activity was regulated and enforced with lots of whistling and every ride had numerous warnings with fine print as to what one must not do. Yet, the waterpark is there for people to have fun and enjoy themselves. Now when I go diving and engage in what is infinitely more dangerous than a waterpark, it's simply assumed that I know what I am doing and that's that. 

Maybe it's all part of the big debate as to how much people need to be saved from themselves.


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## LillyBBBW

Webmaster said:


> That is an interesting issue. Fat people are endlessly subjected to unsolicited, albeit supposedly well-meaning advice from family, friends, the general public and the media to lose weight. Even the worst fat-phobic put-downs often contain the usual, "it's for their own good" disclaimer. So does that mean that a loving spouse should join in the chorus and pressure to get a partner to lose weight, because, after all, it's for the loved one's own good?
> 
> You could argue that to accept, love and admire someone for who and what they are is a good thing for both sides, but does love then mean nagging the other to change so as to better minimize actuarial mortality tables? If that is so, then someone who shares and supports my own passions for certain sports and activities is not doing me a favor at all, as those sports carry substantial risks.
> 
> I think when all is said and done, it, as does almost everything, comes down to common sense.
> 
> I was reminded of that just yesterday when I took my son to a large waterpark where there was a lifeguard every 15 feet or so, and every little activity was regulated and enforced with lots of whistling and every ride had numerous warnings with fine print as to what one must not do. Yet, the waterpark is there for people to have fun and enjoy themselves. Now when I go diving and engage in what is infinitely more dangerous than a waterpark, it's simply assumed that I know what I am doing and that's that.
> 
> Maybe it's all part of the big debate as to how much people need to be saved from themselves.



I find that there are certain people whose opinion I value. Some nag all the time and no matter what you do they can find problems with it and are always worried and fussing but then there are certain others whom I take their observances seriously. If THEY notice something, I know it's something to seriously consider. The rest is just reactionary noise. I try to be that kind of person.


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## LovelyLiz

Ernest Nagel said:


> ...For me I guess it comes down to what does 'being supportive' really mean? ...



You should start a new thread devoted to the questions you raise in your post. I think you raise such excellent points, and obviously speak with great carefulness - it's something you have thought (and felt) a lot about. It's something good to have a conversation about from time to time, since both sides of the issue have such truly compelling points.


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## Blackjack

superodalisque said:


> i'm not better than anyone at all.



You sure don't act like you believe this.



> i don't want to be another stereotype either.



If you want to break the stereotype, then why are you stereotyping others?



> for people who've taken this as a personal affront, i can understand that. i don't have any problem with it. you can be angry at me if you really need to be.



So the blame isn't on the person doing the offending, but on the person who was offended by the insulting and hypocritical claims that you made? That last sentence in particular is probably the most condescending thing that I've heard in a long, long time. You've insulted people and you're now patronizing them for being insulted.


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## liz (di-va)

superodalisque said:


> for people who've taken this as a personal affront, i can understand that. i don't have any problem with it. you can be angry at me if you really need to be.



Felecia - this isn't fair fighting. All we get in the end is our own opinions here, each of us.


----------



## Ernest Nagel

Webmaster said:


> That is an interesting issue. Fat people are endlessly subjected to unsolicited, albeit supposedly well-meaning advice from family, friends, the general public and the media to lose weight. Even the worst fat-phobic put-downs often contain the usual, "it's for their own good" disclaimer. So does that mean that a loving spouse should join in the chorus and pressure to get a partner to lose weight, because, after all, it's for the loved one's own good?
> 
> You could argue that to accept, love and admire someone for who and what they are is a good thing for both sides, but does love then mean nagging the other to change so as to better minimize actuarial mortality tables? If that is so, then someone who shares and supports my own passions for certain sports and activities is not doing me a favor at all, as those sports carry substantial risks.
> 
> I think when all is said and done, it, as does almost everything, comes down to common sense.
> 
> I was reminded of that just yesterday when I took my son to a large waterpark where there was a lifeguard every 15 feet or so, and every little activity was regulated and enforced with lots of whistling and every ride had numerous warnings with fine print as to what one must not do. Yet, the waterpark is there for people to have fun and enjoy themselves. Now when I go diving and engage in what is infinitely more dangerous than a waterpark, it's simply assumed that I know what I am doing and that's that.
> 
> Maybe it's all part of the big debate as to how much people need to be saved from themselves.



Just to be clear, I wasn't asking my spouse to lose as much as to stop gaining. Sexually I found her quite attractive but morally it felt unacceptable. She couldn't continue gaining without my support and I couldn't get her to stop with me in the picture. She was adamant almost from the beginning that she wanted to lose weight but her actions didn't align with her words. She was the one who hated her size, never me. Water under the bridge now. Thanks for your thoughts though, Conrad.



mcbeth said:


> You should start a new thread devoted to the questions you raise in your post. I think you raise such excellent points, and obviously speak with great carefulness - it's something you have thought (and felt) a lot about. It's something good to have a conversation about from time to time, since both sides of the issue have such truly compelling points.



Thank you and I'll consider that but I've attempted to explore this area many times both here and elsewhere. In my mind it's part and parcel of the issues SuperO raises but I don't want to derail the thread.


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## superodalisque

liz (di-va) said:


> Felecia - this isn't fair fighting. All we get in the end is our own opinions here, each of us.



but i'm not fighting. i let everyone else fight it out after i said my opinion. its not an argument i'm willing to have. i never lied, just said how i felt. evidently i'm not allowed to do that.


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## liz (di-va)

superodalisque said:


> but i'm not fighting. i let everyone else fight it out after i said my opinion. its not an argument i'm willing to have.


You are, though. You're just not admitting it. It's okay to have your own opinion, to duke it out. It's not okay to instigate conflict then act like you're not part of it, or have nothing engaged in it.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

superodalisque said:


> but i'm not fighting. i let everyone else fight it out after i said my opinion. its not an argument i'm willing to have. i never lied, just said how i felt. evidently i'm not allowed to do that.



haven't you switched sides though? I'm sure a while ago you have disagreed with me over certain aspects of supersizedom, weight loss and feedism. I could be wrong and Im not about to pan over 2 years worth of posts....but I could swear you have switched sides.


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## butch

I was watching 60 Minutes last week, and they were doing a piece on end of life issues, and they quoted a doctor who said the biggest obstacle to improving the cost and effectivenes of the US health care system is the fact that Americans don't believe in mortality. Granted, I'm probably taking out of context exactly how he made that statement, but the fact remains, we are terrified of old age and death, and we do everything in our culture to pretend it doesn't exist.

That to me is the problem, and honestly, it seems so odd in such a Christian country, with such high rates of 'belief,' that people are so afraid of death, when the afterlife is the goal, where we shuck off our mortal husks. Add that to an increasing body of research that suggests that the biggest threat to our health (all of us, not just fat people) and well being is stress related to our status in society, and no wonder so many of us seem 'sick' and seem to 'die young.'* Young fat people dying reinforces cultural beliefs about staving off death and illness through one's own will power and 'proper' behavior. 

None of us have the ultimate power over life and death, no matter what we do to stay 'healthy.' A car crash, a cancerous tumor, and a super-resistant virus strain don't care if you eat your veggies and jog around the park as much as you think they do, and on whole, the data suggests that the very fattest among us may, statistically speaking, lose 7 years of life. At current rates of life expectancy in the US, that means the fattest young women of our community should at least live into their 70's. I know for myself, I'm fine with that, as I don't fetishize quantity of life over quality of life, and I say that with less than 5 months to go before I turn 40. 

If everyone else is allowed to use their own life experiences to back up their beliefs on fat health, then I get to, as well. At almost 40, I don't have any 'old lady' diseases, and I don't think that happened because I didn't eat a cupcake for effect. I think it happened due to genetics, pure and simple. I wish I could claim otherwise, to be a HAES superstar, but I can't. I'm healthy because for now, at least, my genes seem to be of pretty hardy northern/western European stock. Lucky me. All that could change in an instant, and I did have a cancer scare earlier this year, and I was ready to face my mortality then without blame and self-recriminations because I was fat. 

I am suprememly blessed every day with the health that allows me to live the life I want to live, and I am humbly grateful for that. I don't need to boost up my sense of self by thinking I am 'in control' of this and did it all because of my superior 'healthy behavior.' That attitude makes health into a mark of someone's moral worth, and I see people everyday with disabilites and illnesses that did nothing to deserve it, and thus are not morally weak, so why would we label people who may not 'eat right and exercise' with health issues as moral failures when we'd never do that to someone in a wheelchair, or dealing with a debilitating illness like CF or Down's Syndrome.

If we lived in a world that treated fat people as decently as other people are treated, then what would the health and well-being of fat people look like? I don't think we can offer up complete ideas about the full state of fat health in a society that offers us substandard health care and a stigmatized identity, and perhaps we'd all feel better, insied and out, if instead of arguing over 'good fattys' and 'bad fattys,' that we banded together to fight for decent and humane and complete health care for all fat people. My guess is, that would do a lot more to positively affect the health of fat people, then wondering if some fat people are eating themselves into an early grave, which is how I read this thread, even if that isn't the intent of it.





*let me be clear, I don't think the few examples that have been given about fat women dying young suggest a greater mortality in our community.


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## superodalisque

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> haven't you switched sides though? I'm sure a while ago you have disagreed with me over certain aspects of supersizedom, weight loss and feedism. I could be wrong and Im not about to pan over 2 years worth of posts....but I could swear you have switched sides.



my ideas probably have changed over time. i hope so. i hope i evolve as i learn more about myself and whats going on around me. i'm not one to stick with something thats i don't feel is right anymore. i hope that i thought it was always ok to talk about things like illness and death out in the open and express opinions.


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## superodalisque

liz (di-va) said:


> You are, though. You're just not admitting it. It's okay to have your own opinion, to duke it out. It's not okay to instigate conflict then act like you're not part of it, or have nothing engaged in it.



ok if you feel i am fighting it out then i am. but what does this have to do with how someone feels about what they see going on around them? i feel its just much easier to pick apart my posts than it is to answer the original question-- a really hard one.


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## Carrie

butch said:


> I was watching 60 Minutes last week, ....<snip>


Post of the year, Julia. Seriously. :bow:


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## TraciJo67

superodalisque said:


> i posted this because i thought it should be. we dance around a lot. keep silent about a lot. we keep a lot of secrets that aren't secrets to anyone. its all very political. but the personal thing is how you feel when your friends get sick or die. its not about one upsmanship. i have lost so many people. you have no idea. your not supposed to talk about it here. there is something unhealthy about that. and yes, seeing those things happen effects how i feel about myself and what choices i make. it should. if it didn't there would be something wrong with me. it also scares me realizing there are people around who don't have much of a sense of their own mortality because they haven't had friends that they know well die before. hopefully if people are honest and open about it, it won't take actually losing a friend before somebody takes better care of themselves.
> 
> for people who've taken this as a personal affront, i can understand that. i don't have any problem with it. you can be angry at me if you really need to be.


 
Felicia,
I misunderstood some of what you were trying to say. I understand a little better now. I've talked about this issue in the past, and got some very similar responses. I think that people get very defensive about this topic, and I can understand why. It is difficult, if not impossible, to write about it without some kind of judgment seeping through.

My father went against every bit of medical advise given to him. He wasn't a big man, not in his later years, but I think he was definitely a compulsive eater. He suffered from conditions that required him to limit his intake of food and beverages, and as his conditions worsened, literally a few extra bites of food or sips of water could lead to yet another frantic ambulance ride to the hospital. Among other things, he had holes in his esophagus, and in the latter stage of his illness, any fluid at all that wasn't first thickened could lead to congestive heart failure and pnemonia. Yet, I can't tell you how many times I'd take a leave of absence from my work and my life to go home and take care of him, and I'd find him up in the middle of the night, huddled over the refrigerator, trying to sneak some extra food. When he got to the point where he couldn't walk, he'd beg -- literally beg! -- us for food and water. I was so angry with him, for such a long time. I thought that his inability to "control" himself was a reflection of how little he cared about us, and the sacrifices we made, and how terribly unhappy it made us to watch him suffer as he did. Years later, years past the point of laying awake at night and listening to him gasp and moan and sometimes cry as he struggled to breathe, listening to my exhausted mother calmly telling him for the 20th time that night and in a stretch of previous endless nights to relax and breathe, I understand that my anger at him wasn't because I loved him and didn't want him to suffer (although that was also true). It was mostly because _I_ was suffering. I believe that if my father could have complied with his strict dietary requirements, his death would have been a much easier thing to bear witness to. He couldn't do it, though. And he had to know that he was staring death in the face, there couldn't really be a lot of denial about that, at least not at 3 in the morning when he'd wake up because he couldn't breathe or he was uncomfortable and needed his adult diaper changed because he was too weak to walk 20 feet to the bathroom. There was a lot of judgment in how I viewed his lifestyle choices. I hope that he never saw that reflected in my behaviors. It wasn't something that I ever discussed with him, and I'm thankful for that now. What I hold onto now is that he knew I loved him, not merely by word but by action. Until viewing this thread, I can't remember the last time I thought about his compulsive eating. What I think about now is how his whole face would light up when he saw his grandchildren, how much he'd love my son and how happy he'd be for me that I have this opportunity, in my 40's, to be a mommy. I think that is what you're missing, as you watch your friends suffer from what you believe to be weight-related health problems. Problems that presumably could be avoided if they'd adhere to a diet plan. Unless they are compromised to the point of an inability to make decisions for themselves (making what we believe to be bad choices doesn't equate to an inability to make informed ones), these are and were your friends choices to make. How you feel about it, as a friend, is the only real thing that you can control: love them as they are, freely, without judgment, inasmuch as you are able to. Appreciate them for the wonderful people that they are, and for how they enrich your life, and hope for good things for them. Even as you believe that they are making unwise choices. They aren't your choices to make.

Believing that everyone should be free to make their own choices isn't the same as burying one's head in the sand or worse, actively enabling those choices. It makes me very uncomfortable to read the snippy one-liners in response to you, or the assumptions that you're hating the fat because you dare to discuss the complications that can occur from being very fat, or to suggest that very young women can't know how they are going to feel 10, 15, 25 years from now. This is reality, not everyone's reality, but A reality that should be acknowledged. It is ridiculous to suggest that weight has no bearing at all on health. It stretches credulity to assert that weight had nothing to do with 400-600 pound women who died young. Expressing that, however, is nearly impossible to do without tones of judgment creeping in. It is why I wonder sometimes if it's even worth having this kind of discussion, Felicia. I believe that it is a worthy topic, but perhaps one best held across a table instead of on a message board, when intent can be seen but cannot always be gleaned from the written word.


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## Tracyarts

" In my experience gaining 100lbs has been easier than losing 10. I think a lot of people will find the same when their time comes...your stomach stretches so that you need to eat more to feel like you aren't starving...and if you have gotten so fat your mobility suffers, you can't exercise or do much at all except sit around and eat. I'm talking from experience here. "

That's been my experience as well. Putting on the extra weight that pushed me well past my personal *healthy* zone was effortless and quick. I wasn't a feedee or compulsive eater. I just went from being active to sedentary and didn't adjust my food intake to compensate for it. Taking the extra weight off to get back down to my personal *healthy* zone has been extremely difficult and very slow going. I don't want to get the "diet talk" hand slap for going into too much detail about it; but I think it is safe to say that since my mobility is limited and my options for exercise are even more limited, the only thing I am currently able to do now is significantly reduce my food intake. Which having not been excessive to begin with, is to say the least, a challenge.

Tracy


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## Jes

It's interesting and telling to me to read about how many posters in this very thread have both felt they want or need to say something to a friend of family member when they are concerned for that person's health and/or choices but that they also bristle when the same is done for or to them. 

So maybe that's one of the take away issues here. Human beings possess both the capacity to feel the strong desire to act when we're worried for people and the capacity to resent anyone acting that way toward us (at least with respect to certain choices or behaviors).

So everyone's right. And wrong. At the exact same time. For many Dimmers, who have posted here for years, and have met one another at events, members constitute the 'friends and family' that many in this thread have said they reach out to when they have concerns about health and quality of life. Maybe the impulse is too hard to ignore for many of us, but also too intrusive to appreciate? (I think we're probably all 'guilty' of it. How many threads have devolved into ugliness when children are brought into the mix? Or other topics on which people disagree? People certainly aren't quiet about telling others how wrong they are when it's about puppies instead of cupcakes. Fat is just the hottest potato topic 'round here and I do think we sidestep it more than most everything else.)


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## LoveBHMS

> i'm fat because i eat more than i expend energy. but like a lot of other women here i watch what i eat even though i don't diet. i don't feel i have to die to be fat. so i try not to eat too many things with a lot of dyes, hormones and preservatives etc..., which means i can still have anything i want but just in a conscious way.



So to recap.

You're concerned because people in the community are sick and dying. Fair enough. You attribute this to choices they make and behaviours they exhibit. Also fair enough.

So why do you keept eating more than you expend? I'm very serious. Why? Staying away from "dyes" isn't going to make it any easier for your heart to pump blood through a SS body nor is it going to make it easier on joints or feet to support your weight. Many have posted here about how a fall or some other trauma has prevented them from moving around and that the resulting decline in mobility has added more weight. You can have "anything you want" but you probably can't do it without staying 400+ pounds.

So what about anyone who's concerned about you, what are you going to tell them? "Oh it's ok I don't eat preservatives" isn't going to make anyone less concerned.



> That attitude makes health into a mark of someone's moral worth, and I see people everyday with disabilites and illnesses that did nothing to deserve it, and thus are not morally weak, so why would we label people who may not 'eat right and exercise' with health issues as moral failures when we'd never do that to someone in a wheelchair, or dealing with a debilitating illness like CF or Down's Syndrome.



I think this does need to be answered. Whether or not it's termed a moral failure, there is a huge difference between eating junk food and not exercising and having Down's Syndrome. People have some measure of control over what they eat and whether they exercise, they have zero control over being in a wheelchair or having Cystic Fibrosis. There are undoubetedly shades of grey, but it's not any more unreasonable to question somebody's eating/exercise habits than to question smoking or drug use or sexual promiscuity. The fact remains that how you fuel your body is important, as is how you move it. That a person who does everything right can die of cancer or in a car wreck is no more a reason to not do those things than the fact that some non-smokers get lung cancer is a reason to smoke.


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## superodalisque

LoveBHMS said:


> So to recap.
> 
> You're concerned because people in the community are sick and dying. Fair enough. You attribute this to choices they make and behaviours they exhibit. Also fair enough.
> 
> So why do you keept eating more than you expend? I'm very serious. Why? Staying away from "dyes" isn't going to make it any easier for your heart to pump blood through a SS body nor is it going to make it easier on joints or feet to support your weight. Many have posted here about how a fall or some other trauma has prevented them from moving around and that the resulting decline in mobility has added more weight. You can have "anything you want" but you probably can't do it without staying 400+ pounds.
> 
> So what about anyone who's concerned about you, what are you going to tell them? "Oh it's ok I don't eat preservatives" isn't going to make anyone less concerned.



i tell them my health is good--because it is. if something happens and i need to do something else i will. it doesn't make me angry anymore. i'm not ashamed of being fat. i just educate these days. i'm past feeling that way anymore because i have nothing to feel bad or guilty about. that could change if something changes but right now thats where i am.


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## liz (di-va)

superodalisque said:


> but what does this have to do with how someone feels about what they see going on around them? i feel its just much easier to pick apart my posts than it is to answer the original question-- a really hard one.



My answer to that question would be: 

What all this has to do with your MO is that you answered your own question first without asking it, then worked your way back to formulating the question (under pressure), which is an inflammatory and loaded one, as was your answer. So...none of this should be a huge surprise, I would think.


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## LoveBHMS

superodalisque said:


> i tell them my health is good--because it is. if something happens and i need to do something else i will. it doesn't make me angry anymore. i'm not ashamed of being fat. i just educate these days. i'm past feeling that way anymore because i have nothing to feel bad or guilty about. that could change if something changes but right now thats where i am.



So you eating more than you burn off has left you healthy but not so for others? By the way, I'm not saying anyone is or isn't healthy; I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm merely pointing out that it makes absolutely zero sense to correlate size and ill health yet assert that you're healthy at the same size you says others are not.

Also, the fact that you weigh what you do at a certain age is not relevent. Blaming age is largely a cop out because older folks can and do maintain their weights if they eat properly and exercise. You openly state you eat more than you expend so it's not fair to say it has anything to do with being over 20 or 30.


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## superodalisque

LoveBHMS said:


> So you eating more than you burn off has left you healthy but not so for others? By the way, I'm not saying anyone is or isn't healthy; I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm merely pointing out that it makes absolutely zero sense to correlate size and ill health yet assert that you're healthy at the same size you says others are not.
> 
> Also, the fact that you weigh what you do at a certain age is not relevent. Blaming age is largely a cop out because older folks can and do maintain their weights if they eat properly and exercise. You openly state you eat more than you expend so it's not fair to say it has anything to do with being over 20 or 30.




so how do you feel when someone is sick and deteriorating? does it have an impact on how you feel?


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## superodalisque

liz (di-va) said:


> My answer to that question would be:
> 
> What all this has to do with your MO is that you answered your own question first without asking it, then worked your way back to formulating the question (under pressure), which is an inflammatory and loaded one, as was your answer. So...none of this should be a huge surprise, I would think.



read this again (from the original post):


"i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff."


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## LoveBHMS

superodalisque said:


> so how do you feel when someone is sick and deteriorating? does it have an impact on how you feel?



Yes, because I'm not a sociopath.

The point that CurvyEm made about 6 1/2 pages ago that you never answered is that many people would see you as sick and deteriorating due to your size. How does that make you feel? What about women who are 500 or 600 pounds or more who were once a healthy 400 before surgery made them bedridden and they gained 100 or more pounds? Those women are likely looking at you the same as you're looking at 400 pound women in their 20's.


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## Carrie

The thing is, if you want to have an open and honest conversation about the potential dangers of a body carrying around great excess weight (a topic worth discussion, as I've asserted previously), and maybe even how the fat acceptance culture does or does not affect it, the best way to introduce it does not include sharing everything you do that you consider "right" and labeling different behavior "unhealthy", or saying people over 400 lbs. are "just too much". It's a very effective way to make everyone who falls into one or both of the two latter categories feel immediately judged and, therefore, defensive. By doing that, I believe the very first paragraph of this thread set the entire tone for it. Death at an early age is a hot enough topic without adding in what, effectively, feels a lot like patronizing finger-wagging to many of us.

Felecia, I think you are equating people's anger at your words with "not being allowed to talk about it". I mean, the thread's here, where everyone can read and respond, you haven't been banned or whatever for starting it, so I don't think it's that we can't talk about it, I think it's that you haven't cared for a lot of the responses, as evidenced by your multiple invitations for people who disagree with you or take issue with your words to not post in the thread. 

I think Ernest's post was a great example of how to broach these very tricky topics with sensitivity and tact.


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## superodalisque

LoveBHMS said:


> Yes, because I'm not a sociopath.
> 
> The point that CurvyEm made about 6 1/2 pages ago that you never answered is that many people would see you as sick and deteriorating due to your size. How does that make you feel? What about women who are 500 or 600 pounds or more who were once a healthy 400 before surgery made them bedridden and they gained 100 or more pounds? Those women are likely looking at you the same as you're looking at 400 pound women in their 20's.



i don't mind if people see me as sick and deteriorating. i might look like that from the outside and i'm well aware of that. i'm a realist. thats why when they ask me i tell them whats wrong. i'm not secretive about what i have and why. i've posted it many times on the forums. i would have been more interested in how her seeing me impacted her though. i wouldn't be insulted if she said it bothered her. she could have even asked me in person and i would have been fine with it. whatever she had to say would have been the truth. it shouldn't be embarrassing for either one of us. now she probably knows more about where my health is. i'm glad she asked. i'm glad she knows. maybe she'll be more careful driving than i was.

maybe we should all do more asking and talking instead of being so silent. its better than stupid rumor mongering. its good to clear the air. maybe we need to trust more people with things. maybe they wouldn't get so scared if we did. maybe they wouldn't build things up in their mind. someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they knew one person who died but it had nothing to do with her fat. then maybe we should be saying that instead of scaring people to death with all of this hush hush. what else are people going to assume particularly in certain situations? sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

if we do have something fat related maybe we could warn them to protect themselves better and how. that doesn't always necessitate losing weight. i know i went nuts on telling people about bone spurs when i was first diagnosed. i thought everyone's symptoms were like mine and kept telling them to go and get checked. there is nothing shameful in having problems, just pretending that they don't exist or won't ever exist. 

as far as how other people view me, i'm i'm at a point in my life where i don't wither and die if someone makes an incorrect assumption about me. i used to when i was younger. but really life is too short. besides all of that people get over it in a few seconds once they feel your personality and know you as a person. for me people who are acquaintances who form opinions without ever asking me anything are not really worth knowing for the most part. they are more apt to piss me off especially when they don't give me a chance or have the guts or the respect to ask me anything. people who are strangers and don't know you--well you can't let them impact you that much. if they did impact anyone with their generalizations and assumptions, including all other people on earth, then the entire world would stop. we don't have the luxury of always being paranoid when we want to live life. its isolating and diminishing and wastes time.


----------



## imfree

butch said:


> I was watching 60 Minutes last week, and they were doing a piece on end of life issues, and they quoted a doctor who said the biggest obstacle to improving the cost and effectivenes of the US health care system is the fact that Americans don't believe in mortality. Granted, I'm probably taking out of context exactly how he made that statement, but the fact remains, we are terrified of old age and death, and we do everything in our culture to pretend it doesn't exist.
> 
> That to me is the problem, and honestly, it seems so odd in such a Christian country, with such high rates of 'belief,' that people are so afraid of death, when the afterlife is the goal, where we shuck off our mortal husks. Add that to an increasing body of research that suggests that the biggest threat to our health (all of us, not just fat people) and well being is stress related to our status in society, and no wonder so many of us seem 'sick' and seem to 'die young.'* Young fat people dying reinforces cultural beliefs about staving off death and illness through one's own will power and 'proper' behavior.
> 
> None of us have the ultimate power over life and death, no matter what we do to stay 'healthy.' A car crash, a cancerous tumor, and a super-resistant virus strain don't care if you eat your veggies and jog around the park as much as you think they do, and on whole, the data suggests that the very fattest among us may, statistically speaking, lose 7 years of life. At current rates of life expectancy in the US, that means the fattest young women of our community should at least live into their 70's. I know for myself, I'm fine with that, as I don't fetishize quantity of life over quality of life, and I say that with less than 5 months to go before I turn 40.
> 
> If everyone else is allowed to use their own life experiences to back up their beliefs on fat health, then I get to, as well. At almost 40, I don't have any 'old lady' diseases, and I don't think that happened because I didn't eat a cupcake for effect. I think it happened due to genetics, pure and simple. I wish I could claim otherwise, to be a HAES superstar, but I can't. I'm healthy because for now, at least, my genes seem to be of pretty hardy northern/western European stock. Lucky me. All that could change in an instant, and I did have a cancer scare earlier this year, and I was ready to face my mortality then without blame and self-recriminations because I was fat.
> 
> I am suprememly blessed every day with the health that allows me to live the life I want to live, and I am humbly grateful for that. I don't need to boost up my sense of self by thinking I am 'in control' of this and did it all because of my superior 'healthy behavior.' That attitude makes health into a mark of someone's moral worth, and I see people everyday with disabilites and illnesses that did nothing to deserve it, and thus are not morally weak, so why would we label people who may not 'eat right and exercise' with health issues as moral failures when we'd never do that to someone in a wheelchair, or dealing with a debilitating illness like CF or Down's Syndrome.
> 
> If we lived in a world that treated fat people as decently as other people are treated, then what would the health and well-being of fat people look like? I don't think we can offer up complete ideas about the full state of fat health in a society that offers us substandard health care and a stigmatized identity, and perhaps we'd all feel better, insied and out, if instead of arguing over 'good fattys' and 'bad fattys,' that we banded together to fight for decent and humane and complete health care for all fat people. My guess is, that would do a lot more to positively affect the health of fat people, then wondering if some fat people are eating themselves into an early grave, which is how I read this thread, even if that isn't the intent of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *let me be clear, I don't think the few examples that have been given about fat women dying young suggest a greater mortality in our community.



This post pretty well says it all. I really
believe that substantial part of bad
health in fat people is because of
the media and society psychologically 
beating the message that fat is the
major cause of health problems into 
fat people. It is pretty easy to mentally
program a fat person into being
seriously ill. Been there myself.Guilt 
is a powerful tool for mentally 
controlling another person. Faith can 
heal as well as kill. I really believe it.:bow:


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

I must say I'm angry at people who told me I would die young. Seriously. At 19 weighing over 550lbs...I had several people tell me I had 5, 10 years at most to live....so instead of freaking out and dieting and "conforming" I partied like it was 1999...well..it actually was or thereabouts. I ran up credit card bills, smoked, drank, smoked a lot of pot...I was LIVING IT UP...I mean I only have 5 years to live...right???

Well fuck me sideways. Here I am, 10 years later, in near perfect condition. I have PCOS and diabetes that reacts to carb intake...but I just had an EKG and my heart is as healthy as the tech doing it..he said so himself. I feel ripped off that I didn't die. People lied to me and told me I was unhealthy because I was over 550 at 19...they all expected me to drop dead of a heart attack. I am 32 now and still kickin it.

Telling people they will die young isn't an honest assesment. Sure it does happen...people die because they are fat. People die because they have WLS to not be fat. People die in car accidents. People die when crazy religious people highjack planes.

If one thing is for sure...my loss of religion has made me more comfortable with death and when it comes it comes....but I don't think I'm going to die from being fat...even at 600lbs and at 32. I don't walk with a cane, I've never ridden a scooter, I've only used a wheelchair in the hospital.....I say all of this because people don't know why you use a cane...the probably assume it is because you are so fat...I know I would, because that is my own prejudice. I would see you walking and think to myself "humph I am more mobile at my 600lbs than she is at a mere 400". I know that's shitty, but I admit that is what I would be thinking....and I think that is what you are doing to others...you are looking around and thinking "humph...at least I dont have x, y or z...I must be healthier".

I'm not saying I disagree with you, because in reality I do think there is a lot of head in the sand around here....but I think you post put out a me vs "them" vibe...and to a lot of people...you are also a "them". Welcome to the club.  And this isn't a jibe..I like you, you are insightful..I just think they way you worded things put people on edge. No one wants to be a "them".


----------



## superodalisque

i understand the sentiment in this thread that upset people but my question is about how YOU feel when you see OTHER people. its not about what you think if people view you that way. maybe we are so used to feeling like we are the ones being watched and critiqued that sometimes we forget to take note of what WE feel and how WE view OTHER people. those are two different things. most of the time it happens so quickly that you don't even have the time to think censor yourself to "how would i feel if that person thought the same about me". its not about telling people what to do or anything like that. its about how you personally feel when the situation is surrounding you? it doesn't have to be an judgement, just an impact. do you worry about your friends. does it make you change your habits if anything? what goes through YOUR mind?


----------



## LillyBBBW

LoveBHMS said:


> I think this does need to be answered. Whether or not it's termed a moral failure, there is a huge difference between eating junk food and not exercising and having Down's Syndrome. People have some measure of control over what they eat and whether they exercise, they have zero control over being in a wheelchair or having Cystic Fibrosis. There are undoubetedly shades of grey, but it's not any more unreasonable to question somebody's eating/exercise habits than to question smoking or drug use or sexual promiscuity. The fact remains that how you fuel your body is important, as is how you move it. That a person who does everything right can die of cancer or in a car wreck is no more a reason to not do those things than the fact that some non-smokers get lung cancer is a reason to smoke.



The difference for me is that no one automatically assumes that the person is in a wheelchair or developementally challenged because of some sort of short coming. "Mommy drank while carrying you and your father's in a wheelchair because he didn't wear a seatbelt or possibly violated some safely rule." No one is instantly villified in the way that fat people are because their issues 'may' be self inflicted. Even those who are extremely thin get a heartier defense than those who are morbily obese - because obviously extremely thin people suffer from a disease that requires treatment and compassion while the obese are simply lazy and love food too much. If its wrong to mistreat everyone else then it's wrong to mistreat the obese for the same reason.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

superodalisque said:


> i understand the sentiment in this thread that upset people but my question is about how YOU feel when you see OTHER people.



This is a question I can answer. I feel bad. I see people myself and I feel bad. Not sorry for them...but bad in an omg I know how much shit you must go through every day kinda bad.

No when people die around here? I cant help it. My prejudices get in the way and I attribute it to fatness...because the people who die around here aren't just bbws...in fact I cant think of a single bbw who has died...they have all been ssbbws...and I dont think it is just coincidence. Yes the health care system played a part....but how did they get sick to begin with? I know personally when a certain someone died, I freaked the fuck out. I did the opposite of what is normal..you would think it would freak me out into dieting... but I binged nonstop. I couldn't believe someone so young had been taken so soon. And I hated the way we weren't allowed to question it or discuss it openly other than to say RIP.

I have a lot of feelings about this. When I see another fat person the first thing I do is compare them to me. Are they cuter than me? Better teeth? Better face? Are they dressed better? Do they come across as educated or a dumb ass? (thats a big one with me) Im the first to admit I'm a snob and a half...but I totally judge people based on me. 

There..is that honest enough?  I'll keep trying til I get there!


----------



## superodalisque

Carrie said:


> The thing is, if you want to have an open and honest conversation about the potential dangers of a body carrying around great excess weight (a topic worth discussion, as I've asserted previously), and maybe even how the fat acceptance culture does or does not affect it, the best way to introduce it does not include sharing everything you do that you consider "right" and labeling different behavior "unhealthy", or saying people over 400 lbs. are "just too much". It's a very effective way to make everyone who falls into one or both of the two latter categories feel immediately judged and, therefore, defensive. By doing that, I believe the very first paragraph of this thread set the entire tone for it. Death at an early age is a hot enough topic without adding in what, effectively, feels a lot like patronizing finger-wagging to many of us.
> 
> Felecia, I think you are equating people's anger at your words with "not being allowed to talk about it". I mean, the thread's here, where everyone can read and respond, you haven't been banned or whatever for starting it, so I don't think it's that we can't talk about it, I think it's that you haven't cared for a lot of the responses, as evidenced by your multiple invitations for people who disagree with you or take issue with your words to not post in the thread.
> 
> I think Ernest's post was a great example of how to broach these very tricky topics with sensitivity and tact.



i can understand that. but also its maybe because all of us are so used to being compared that there is an immediate knee jerk reaction to someone describing how they are pretty much ok and someone else might not be. its not about doing the "right" things necessarily. its about what I personally do, what my reality is, how i think about what i should do and what i see around me and how all of that effects my outlook. its not a judgement to say those things but a reality as i personally see it. is it really that bad of a thing to say that you try to take care of yourself? 

i think when people are used to being patronized they can see it everywhere. if i was that patronizing i'd go around wagging my finger in person and in public and i don't think i do that. sometimes i'm not sensitive or tactful. sometimes i miss because i'm human. but really i just put it down to people believing what they would like to believe and there is nothing i can do about that.


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> i tell them my health is good--because it is. if something happens and i need to do something else i will. it doesn't make me angry anymore. i'm not ashamed of being fat. i just educate these days. i'm past feeling that way anymore because i have nothing to feel bad or guilty about. that could change if something changes but right now thats where i am.



I guess I'm confused. Isn't saying you need to do something else re: your health if it becomes bad the same as 20-something who might decide to do the same if eating cupcakes for effect became too much? 

I don't think super fat 20-somethings are ashamed of being fat either. Maybe they could do a bit of educating the old heads around these parts. Everything isn't doom and gloom if you're SS at a young(er) age. I guess I'm wondering what deterioration looks like at 20+ years of age and what old lady diseases are. Would you mind sharing? Because on the whole, us young folk, super fat or not, are generally really healthy. 

Just a thought - A mid sized woman could say well who are you to talk about younger folks when you are just as big if not bigger yet you're so worried. Should I worry about you? Because you're over 40 and SS? Because you've had to use a cane AND you're still fat? It wouldn't be right if smaller fatties were passing judgement and using you as a cautionary tale of what not to do, regardless of your good habits, because obviously you still ended up being very fat. 

The whole thing just seems a bit hypocritical.

Also I really don't know how many people I come into contact with daily that I end up discussing my health history with. Like... why would I do that? There are essentially 3 people involved in my healthcare and decisions regarding it - myself, my partner and my attending physician. Anyone else can kick rocks. I'm not walking around educating ANYONE. I'm not ashamed or defensive. The opposite really - I don't have the time and I personally can't be arsed.


----------



## sweet&fat

superodalisque said:


> i think when people are used to being patronized they can see it everywhere. if i was that patronizing i'd go around wagging my finger in person and in public and i don't think i do that. sometimes i'm not sensitive or tactful. sometimes i miss because i'm human. *but really i just put it down to people believing what they would like to believe and there is nothing i can do about that*.



We all say things that are off sometimes, but truly, to place the blame on others so consistently is really slippery. If your objective is to actually promote discussion about the topic you'd like to introduce, you can either keep going with the same kind of approach and get the knee-jerk reaction every time or learn from it and try to learn to structure your thoughts more constructively and neutrally. You are a factor in this just as much as everyone else is.


----------



## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> I guess I'm confused. Isn't saying you need to do something else re: your health if it becomes bad the same as 20-something who might decide to do the same if eating cupcakes for effect became too much?
> 
> I don't think super fat 20-somethings are ashamed of being fat either. Maybe they could do a bit of educating the old heads around these parts. Everything isn't doom and gloom if you're SS at a young(er) age. I guess I'm wondering what deterioration looks like at 20+ years of age and what old lady diseases are. Would you mind sharing? Because on the whole, us young folk, super fat or not, are generally really healthy.
> 
> Just a thought - A mid sized woman could say well who are you to talk about younger folks when you are just as big if not bigger yet you're so worried. Should I worry about you? Because you're over 40 and SS? It wouldn't be right if smaller fatties were passing judgement and using you as a cautionary tale of what not to do, regardless of your good habits, because obviously you still ended up being very fat.
> 
> The whole thing just seems a bit hypocritical.



i agree with that. but the question was not about what others think about you, its about what you think about others. and as we well know all of us are highly capable of being hypocritical when it comes to what we do or look like versus what we think of someone else. no none of us are always sterling with our personal thoughts or deeds. sometimes we catch ourselves and say "what the hell?! " but still they ARE our thoughts and maybe its okay to claim them and examine them honestly. one point may well be we are hypocritical. who knows. lets see.

how do you feel about it?


----------



## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> i understand the sentiment in this thread that upset people but my question is about how YOU feel when you see OTHER people. its not about what you think if people view you that way. maybe we are so used to feeling like we are the ones being watched and critiqued that sometimes we forget to take note of what WE feel and how WE view OTHER people. those are two different things. most of the time it happens so quickly that you don't even have the time to think censor yourself to "how would i feel if that person thought the same about me". its not about telling people what to do or anything like that. its about how you personally feel when the situation is surrounding you? it doesn't have to be an judgement, just an impact. do you worry about your friends. does it make you change your habits if anything? what goes through YOUR mind?


I think LoveBHMs said it best: when I see someone struggling, I feel bad, because I'm not a sociopath. I like people, I don't like to see them struggling or unhappy. If it's a fat person struggling, it will almost certainly strike a deeper chord of empathy in me because it makes me think about my own health, and my own mobility and my own well-being. But I don't presume to know how that person got fat, or why they have a cane, etc., and beyond the commonality in our body size, I'm not going to assume we have a shared history (e.g. just because I am a compulsive/emotional eater, I don't assume other fat people are), so there's a limit to how much immediate relating I will do to them, barring conversation. I also pretty well assume that the person is well aware of their physical condition and how they reached it. 

If we are talking specifically of younger women who are gaining intentionally, I think I pretty well covered my thoughts on that in earlier posts. 

After all the fanfare, I feel like I'm missing something. I'm not sure if you were looking for more of an answer than that?


----------



## superodalisque

sweet&fat said:


> We all say things that are off sometimes, but truly, to place the blame on others so consistently is really slippery. If your objective is to actually promote discussion about the topic you'd like to introduce, you can either keep going with the same kind of approach and get the knee-jerk reaction every time or learn from it and try to learn to structure your thoughts more constructively and neutrally. You are a factor in this just as much as everyone else is.



so now that you know what the the question was, what is your particular answer?


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> i can understand that. but also its maybe because all of us are so used to being compared that there is an immediate knee jerk reaction to someone describing how they are pretty much ok and someone else might not be. its not about doing the "right" things necessarily. its about what I personally do, what my reality is, how i think about what i should do and what i see around me and how all of that effects my outlook. its not a judgement to say those things but a reality as i personally see it. *is it really that bad of a thing to say that you try to take care of yourself? *
> 
> i think when people are used to being patronized they can see it everywhere. if i was that patronizing i'd go around wagging my finger in person and in public and i don't think i do that. sometimes i'm not sensitive or tactful. sometimes i miss because i'm human. but really i just put it down to people believing what they would like to believe and there is nothing i can do about that.



Not at all. I take care of myself as well. It's _how_ you go about stating those things that leaves the impact. No one pays attention to the fact the you were fairly active, ate organic, didn't get super fat until 40 because it's colored by a sort of patronizing tone. I think that's what Carrie was getting at.

*Carrietta if I'm wrong, then by all means, correct me.


----------



## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> i think when people are used to being patronized they can see it everywhere. if i was that patronizing i'd go around wagging my finger in person and in public and i don't think i do that. sometimes i'm not sensitive or tactful. sometimes i miss because i'm human. *but really i just put it down to people believing what they would like to believe and there is nothing i can do about that.*


That approach also quite effectively absolves you from having to take personal responsibility for your words. It's like throwing a bunch of poop into a room full of people and being like, "Oh, I'm so sorry you choooose to not like the poop I threw, but that's not really my fault or my responsibility."


----------



## Ash

superodalisque said:


> so now that you know what the the question was, what is your particular answer?



She can choose to answer or not to answer.


----------



## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> Not at all. I take care of myself as well. It's _how_ you go about stating those things that leaves the impact. No one pays attention to the fact the you were fairly active, ate organic, didn't get super fat until 40 because it's colored by a sort of patronizing tone. I think that's what Carrie was getting at.
> 
> *Carrietta if I'm wrong, then by all means, correct me.



i'm sorry if people took it that way but its not how it was meant. i was just trying to be straight and not patronize by being direct.


----------



## Carrie

ashmamma84 said:


> Not at all. I take care of myself as well. It's _how_ you go about stating those things that leaves the impact. No one pays attention to the fact the you were fairly active, ate organic, didn't get super fat until 40 because it's colored by a sort of patronizing tone. I think that's what Carrie was getting at.
> 
> *Carrietta if I'm wrong, then by all means, correct me.


Nope, you got it.


----------



## superodalisque

Ashley said:


> She can choose to answer or not to answer.



yes she can


----------



## Ash

superodalisque said:


> i'm sorry if people took it that way but its not how it was meant. i was just being straight and not patronize by being direct.



Thanks, Felecia. It's really gracious of you to take responsibility for the way you phrased your question and to admit when you were wrong...


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> i agree with that. but the question was not about what others think about you, its about what you think about others. and as we well know all of us are highly capable of being hypocritical when it comes to what we do or look like versus what we think of someone else. no none of us are always sterling with our personal thoughts or deeds. sometimes we catch ourselves and say "what the hell?! " but still they ARE our thoughts and maybe its okay to claim them and examine them honestly. one point may well be we are hypocritical. who knows. lets see.
> 
> how do you feel about it?



Honestly, fat has nothing to do with it. Because I'm human and I love and care about my friends and family I wouldn't want them to suffer in anyway. I'd feel sad about the pain they were suffering. I don't feel worse for one friend because she's super fat and not so bad for the other because she's average size yet has other issues. Suffering is suffering no matter who's going through it.

However, as an adult I recognize there isn't anything I can do to change behaviors of others. I can manage my own emotions though. And if I had such a problem with what was going on around me, that's something I'd have to work on internally. If I had to pull away for a moment because it got to be too much then that's what I'd have to do instead of trying to fight tooth and nail to make someone "act right". 

And again, I'd like to know what deterioration and old lady diseases the 20 and 30 somethings have.


----------



## supersoup

you know what, this thread has made me see the light.

i think i'm going to fully embrace the fact that everyone should look at me with fear in their eyes, and wonder when i'm going to drop dead because i'm 27 and over 400 pounds. i'm going to carefully review and analyze everything i have ever done, because clearly, at my age and weight, i've made a grievous error somewhere.

thank you, for introducing me to fear and self loathing.

i'm off to burn my bikinis, and dump my boyfriend.


----------



## superodalisque

supersoup said:


> you know what, this thread has made me see the light.
> 
> i think i'm going to fully embrace the fact that everyone should look at me with fear in their eyes, and wonder when i'm going to drop dead because i'm 27 and over 400 pounds. i'm going to carefully review and analyze everything i have ever done, because clearly, at my age and weight, i've made a grievous error somewhere.
> 
> thank you, for introducing me to fear and self loathing.
> 
> i'm off to burn my bikinis, and dump my boyfriend.




sorry you took it that way. i know you're using sarcasm but lets try orienting it the other way. what do you think when you see a situation where someone is facing difficulties like the ones in mentioned?


----------



## supersoup

superodalisque said:


> sorry you took it that way. but what do you think when you see it?



ARE YOU KIDDING ME.


----------



## superodalisque

supersoup said:


> ARE YOU KIDDING ME.



nope not at all. i'd really like to know.

PS: sorry i edited that after you quoted.


----------



## Ash

You know, blaming other people for feeling bad when you've been offensive and then hiding behind a claim that you're just trying to foster discussion does not make you seem innocent. It makes you seem like a bully.


----------



## superodalisque

Ashley said:


> You know, blaming other people for feeling bad when you've been offensive and then hiding behind a claim that you're just trying to foster discussion does not make you seem innocent. It makes you seem like a bully.



no i'm not trying to bully anyone. just asking an honest question.


----------



## sweet&fat

superodalisque said:


> so now that you know what the the question was, what is your particular answer?



Well, it's hard for me to answer... I think a lot of people who I know (fat or not) live lives that I would not personally, but I don't get on their case for it. I myself was recently effectively disowned by my parents because they "couldn't stand to see me kill myself" by being so fat and I'm well under 400 and have no health complications at all (knock wood). But for them, I'm a walking time-bomb. Their perception is so out of sync with my reality that it makes me sick. Given what I've experienced, I try not to judge anyone for their personal situation/choices, especially when it comes to fat. I have no right to preach to them. I just know what's right for me.


----------



## joswitch

Carrie said:


> Post of the year, Julia. Seriously. :bow:



Agreed! Very much so! Butch = teh awesome! :bow::bow::bow:


----------



## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> Honestly, fat has nothing to do with it. Because I'm human and I love and care about my friends and family I wouldn't want them to suffer in anyway. I'd feel sad about the pain they were suffering. I don't feel worse for one friend because she's super fat and not so bad for the other because she's average size yet has other issues. Suffering is suffering no matter who's going through it.
> 
> However, as an adult I recognize there isn't anything I can do to change behaviors of others. I can manage my own emotions though. And if I had such a problem with what was going on around me, that's something I'd have to work on internally. If I had to pull away for a moment because it got to be too much then that's what I'd have to do instead of trying to fight tooth and nail to make someone "act right".
> 
> And again, I'd like to know what deterioration and old lady diseases the 20 and 30 somethings have.



yep i understand. this thread was originally posted in the BBW forum but was moved and was aimed at that audience in particular who have some shared health issues to consider. thats why it was worded that way. i know we are all different etc... but when you see someone like you it might have more of an impact. i know as a black person things like high blood pressure create more of concern with me even though all black people don't have it. enough do though that when i see people with the effects it makes me think.


----------



## Jes

sweet&fat said:


> Well, it's hard for me to answer... I think a lot of people who I know (fat or not) live lives that I would not personally, but I don't get on their case for it. I myself was recently effectively disowned by my parents because they "couldn't stand to see me kill myself" by being so fat and I'm well under 400 and have no health complications at all (knock wood). But for them, I'm a walking time-bomb. Their perception is so out of sync with my reality that it makes me sick. Given what I've experienced, I try not to judge anyone for their personal situation/choices, especially when it comes to fat. I have no right to preach to them. I just know what's right for me.



good post. I think the answers to Super's questions are interesting. What DO we think when we see others in one of our ethnic groups (v. another ethnic group of which we're not part). Is there anyone who doesn't compare themselves? Maybe there is; it's not me. And I'm sorry to hear what you just shared about your family. That would definitely changes one's perceptions I'd think.


----------



## Paquito

Hot.
Ass.
Mess.



Thread over.


----------



## Carrie

sweet&fat said:


> Well, it's hard for me to answer... I think a lot of people who I know (fat or not) live lives that I would not personally, but I don't get on their case for it. I myself was recently effectively disowned by my parents because they "couldn't stand to see me kill myself" by being so fat and I'm well under 400 and have no health complications at all (knock wood). But for them, I'm a walking time-bomb. Their perception is so out of sync with my reality that it makes me sick. Given what I've experienced, I try not to judge anyone for their personal situation/choices, especially when it comes to fat. I have no right to preach to them. I just know what's right for me.


God, that is awful, Leah. I'm so sorry to hear this.


----------



## superodalisque

sweet&fat said:


> Well, it's hard for me to answer... I think a lot of people who I know (fat or not) live lives that I would not personally, but I don't get on their case for it. I myself was recently effectively disowned by my parents because they "couldn't stand to see me kill myself" by being so fat and I'm well under 400 and have no health complications at all (knock wood). But for them, I'm a walking time-bomb. Their perception is so out of sync with my reality that it makes me sick. Given what I've experienced, I try not to judge anyone for their personal situation/choices, especially when it comes to fat. I have no right to preach to them. I just know what's right for me.



i'm so sorry to hear that you are going through that. its really unfair. i don't get on anyone's case either. i worry but i don't say anything to them. sometimes i think i should but i know myself how counterproductive it can be. no one wants anyone preaching. my own mom who has passed and my older sister were very happy to jump on that train. i know exactly how that feels. i might think something but i never would say it to them because i know how complicated things are. sometimes its not their time yet and they just have to get there at their own pace. you can't push anybody. no one does anything until they are really ready.


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> yep i understand. this thread was originally posted in the BBW forum but was moved and was aimed at that audience in particular who have some shared health issues to consider. thats why it was worded that way. i know we are all different etc... but when you see someone like you it might have more of an impact. i know as a black person things like high blood pressure create more of concern with me even though all black people don't have it. enough do though that when i see people with the effects it makes me think.



Actually, I don't think about my health when I see another bbw. Probably because I'm right with myself and don't feel I have much to worry about anyhow. I guess my approach is sort of proactive in doing what I feel is good/right for my own situation so seeing another fat chick in ill health doesn't make me fear for my own. Especially since I get regular check ups and know what my health status is. Maybe it would be different if I didn't know or want to know. But in my case, knowledge is power. 

High blood pressure doesn't really concern me. Again, because I know where I stand. I'm doing what I think I should be doing per my doctor and if it happens to befall me (hey, fat did!) then it's not something I'd beat myself up over. 

What does seeing black folks with high blood pressure make you think? Does that worry you as well?


----------



## superodalisque

ashmamma84 said:


> Actually, I don't think about my health when I see another bbw. Probably because I'm right with myself and don't feel I have much to worry about anyhow. I guess my approach is sort of proactive in doing what I feel is good/right for my own situation so seeing another fat chick in ill health doesn't make me fear for my own. Especially since I get regular check ups and know what my health status is. Maybe it would be different if I didn't know or want to know. But in my case, knowledge is power.
> 
> High blood pressure doesn't really concern me. Again, because I know where I stand. I'm doing what I think I should be doing per my doctor and if it happens to befall me (hey, fat did!) then it's not something I'd beat myself up over.
> 
> What does seeing black folks with high blood pressure make you think? Does that worry you as well?




yes, i wonder how reluctance to go to the doctor and reassure yourself figures into it too. so many BBWs are made to feel so uncomfortable that they don't go for regular check-ups. not having that certainty could be hard too.


----------



## sweet&fat

Carrie said:


> God, that is awful, Leah. I'm so sorry to hear this.





superodalisque said:


> i'm so sorry to hear that you are going through that. its really unfair. i don't get on anyone's case either. i worry but i don't say anything to them. sometimes i think i should but i know myself how counterproductive it can be. no one wants anyone preaching. my own mom who has passed and my older sister were very happy to jump on that train. i know exactly how that feels. i might think something but i never would say it to them because i know how complicated things are. sometimes its not their time yet and they just have to get there at their own pace. you can't push anybody. no one does anything until they are really ready.



Yeah, it fucking sucks. Which is why I would say to everyone to be very careful to distinguish between what you think is real and what actually is.


----------



## supersoup

lots of people do things i wouldn't do, but it's not my place to call their choices into question. i don't compare myself to other supersized people. all we have in common is that we are supersized. i am in no way a better fatty for being super mobile, when someone my same size may need a mobility aide 24/7. they are different than me. i am also in no way a bad fatty for having a milkshake with my dinner instead of a water with lemon like that fatty over there, because they are different than i am. i call nothing i do into question when someone in my size demographic passes away. i feel terrible for the life lost, and i pray in my own way, that their family is finding some sort of solace in leaning on each other. i live my life the way that makes me happy, because that's all i want at the end of the day.


----------



## TraciJo67

supersoup said:


> you know what, this thread has made me see the light.
> 
> i think i'm going to fully embrace the fact that everyone should look at me with fear in their eyes, and wonder when i'm going to drop dead because i'm 27 and over 400 pounds. i'm going to carefully review and analyze everything i have ever done, because clearly, at my age and weight, i've made a grievous error somewhere.
> 
> thank you, for introducing me to fear and self loathing.
> 
> i'm off to burn my bikinis, and dump my boyfriend.


 
There isn't any need for this, which is at its core just as bullying as others are claiming Felicia to be.

Fuck anyone who judges you for being who and what you are. You have a right to be angry about that.

But I think [the general] you are reading a lot more intent into what Felicia is saying than what is actually there. Some of it seems to be intentional, at least to me, as I'm reading it.

She's said, multiple times, that this isn't about judging the bad fat from the good. It's about how she feels when she sees people who are suffering, or those who have suffered and died. Are we to just pretend that people never die from weight-related complications? I mean no judgment here. I'd first have to remove the gigantic plank of hypocrisy from my own eye before attempting to castigate anyone else for their choices. I've made, and make, terrible decisions at times when it comes to matters of my own health. 

You can and should live your life as it pleases you. We're not even discussing you. Felicia has expressed concern about friends and loved ones whom she believes died young due to weight-related complications, or are currently suffering from them. That doesn't translate to you. Nobody is suggesting that every fat person is going to suffer the same fate. But some do. And her question was, how do you feel about it, as a friend, watching someone die by inches when you know that if different choices were made, their quality of life could improve? It's a valid question. Unfortunately, a lot can also be read into it, and what you're reading may not be what Felicia was intending. 

Maybe it's just not a valid question for this forum. It seems to create a lot of hostility, and to me, much of that appears due to a lot of unnecessary defensiveness. 

You can eat a croissant on public transit. You don't have to ditch the boyfriend and burn the bikini. Acknowledging that some people do face a health crisis that is due at least in part to weight can reside in the same zip code as feeling just fine with who you are, at whatever weight you happen to be. I haven't seen anything in what Felicia's written that suggests a feeling of superiority or misplaced pity (both of which would set my own hot button issues to a screaming red alert).


----------



## superodalisque

Ashley said:


> Thanks, Felecia. It's really gracious of you to take responsibility for the way you phrased your question and to admit when you were wrong...



eh it took nothin. when your my age you realize its not so important to be branded wrong or right just to try and do the right thing.

now that we have the right wrong thing out of the way maybe we can actually accomplish something


----------



## BeaBea

superodalisque said:


> sometimes i'm not sensitive or tactful.



You see, I knew eventually you would say something I could agree with.
As for the rest, I'm still sticking with :doh:

Tracey


----------



## butch

But TraciJo, the thing that Felecia does a lot, and which is what is bugging many of us, is that she starts conversations which she posits as very binary issues, that even seem to exclude many valubale voices from the discussion, and then appears to agree with aspects of all sides of the debate, and that is a near impossible situation to have an 'honest' discussion about a charged topic.

I say that as someone who will often behave similarly, at least as far as the agreeing with some points from all parts of the debate, so I can't fault her for that. She also used loaded imagery and language to paint one side of her debate, the one that she implied she believed. Of course people will react in kind, even if she doesn't truly believe the slightly patronizing viewpoints she presents about some people in the community.

If it sounds like I'm attacking Felecia, I'm not. I like her, and I enjoy a lot of the discussions she presents, even as I often find them too predicated on certain ideas about heterosexual thin men and fat women that I find excluding and marginalizing. If nothing else, I hope this thread truly challenges her to think about another perspective besides the dyad of heterosexual thin man and fat woman that she returns to a lot in her posts, and perhaps allows her to understand other aspects of the community here that run counter to her own values and ideas about sexuality, fetishes, and the fat body.


----------



## ashmamma84

butch said:


> But TraciJo, the thing that Felecia does a lot, and which is what is bugging many of us, is that she starts conversations which she posits as very binary issues, that even seem to exclude many valubale voices from the discussion, and then appears to agree with aspects of all sides of the debate, and that is a near impossible situation to have an 'honest' discussion about a charged topic.
> 
> I say that as someone who will often behave similarly, at least as far as the agreeing with some points from all parts of the debate, so I can't fault her for that. She also used loaded imagery and language to paint one side of her debate, the one that she implied she believed. Of course people will react in kind, even if she doesn't truly believe the slightly patronizing viewpoints she presents about some people in the community.
> 
> If it sounds like I'm attacking Felecia, I'm not. I like her, and I enjoy a lot of the discussions she presents, even as I often find them too predicated on certain ideas about heterosexual thin men and fat women that I find excluding and marginalizing. If nothing else, I hope this thread truly challenges her to think about another perspective besides the dyad of heterosexual thin man and fat woman that she returns to a lot in her posts, and perhaps allows her to understand other aspects of the community here that run counter to her own values and ideas about sexuality, fetishes, and the fat body.



This.

Too bad I repped your other post.


----------



## superodalisque

i agree that i don't post the way people expect. i often take different sides because they are understandable. i agree there should be more commentary re: experiences other than the FA/BBW experience. those are areas i don't know much about so i'd rather leave it up to people who do for the most part. i'm not trying to ignore anyone but i just don't feel comfortable speaking for people who can and should speak for themselves. i should engage more though and i'll do better. lately i post mainly in the BBW forum, but only because i am one. i did post one to FAs recently. maybe we all need to be posting in the main forum together more and that would help us all to be more involved with each other's issues.


----------



## Emma

You know I've just had the biggest panic attack of my life. It was absolutly terrifying and I was convinced I was about to have a heart attack. I had wound myself up to such a point where I was actually screaming a bit and begging my OH to call an ambulence. 

I'm 25 and I shouldn't be convinced that I'm about to drop dead but its threads like this and the media that mean my life is plauged my life with constant anxiety and panic attacks and every night before I go to sleep I don't think I will wake up.


----------



## Ned Sonntag

butch said:


> But TraciJo, the thing that Felecia does a lot, and which is what is bugging many of us, is that she starts conversations which she posits as very binary issues, that even seem to exclude many valubale voices from the discussion, and then appears to agree with aspects of all sides of the debate, and that is a near impossible situation to have an 'honest' discussion about a charged topic.
> 
> I say that as someone who will often behave similarly, at least as far as the agreeing with some points from all parts of the debate, so I can't fault her for that. She also used loaded imagery and language to paint one side of her debate, the one that she implied she believed. Of course people will react in kind, even if she doesn't truly believe the slightly patronizing viewpoints she presents about some people in the community.
> 
> If it sounds like I'm attacking Felecia, I'm not. I like her, and I enjoy a lot of the discussions she presents, even as I often find them too predicated on certain ideas about heterosexual thin men and fat women that I find excluding and marginalizing. If nothing else, I hope this thread truly challenges her to think about another perspective besides the dyad of heterosexual thin man and fat woman that she returns to a lot in her posts, and perhaps allows her to understand other aspects of the community here that run counter to her own values and ideas about sexuality, fetishes, and the fat body.


 Oooooh I need a plus-size Myrna Loy:smitten: to help me solve life's Psychic Mysteries:doh::blush:...


----------



## joswitch

sweet&fat said:


> Well, it's hard for me to answer... I think a lot of people who I know (fat or not) live lives that I would not personally, but I don't get on their case for it. *I myself was recently effectively disowned by my parents because they "couldn't stand to see me kill myself" by being so fat* and I'm well under 400 and have no health complications at all (knock wood). But for them, I'm a walking time-bomb. Their perception is so out of sync with my reality that it makes me sick. Given what I've experienced, I try not to judge anyone for their personal situation/choices, especially when it comes to fat. I have no right to preach to them. I just know what's right for me.



^
That's bloody appalling! 
How does that even work anyway?
"We're so concerned for your health that... we're going to disown you."
What
The 
Fuck

*bighugs4u*


----------



## CrankySpice

superodalisque said:


> i'm so sorry to hear that you are going through that. its really unfair. i don't get on anyone's case either.* i worry but i don't say anything to them.* sometimes i think i should but i know myself how counterproductive it can be. no one wants anyone preaching. my own mom who has passed and my older sister were very happy to jump on that train. i know exactly how that feels.* i might think something but i never would say it to them because i know how complicated things are.* sometimes its not their time yet and they just have to get there at their own pace. you can't push anybody. no one does anything until they are really ready.



and yet:



superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s. most were in their 30s. none of it was WLS related. sometimes i look around at the younger generation who are in their 20s and already well over the 400lb mark and it really frightens me that i'm going to lose them soon. they already have old lady diseases that i don't even have yet. it took me until 40 to reach their size. i was always athletic to a degree. i've always been careful of the types of foods i ate. i'm watching their lives go by unexplored and limited and it saddens me. even now even though i'm not quite ready for international flights again i can still fly all over the country.
> 
> i'm not anti fat at all. i feel its beautiful and it can be healthy but when is it just too much? does it ever bother you to see so much bad health and misery going on around you? do you ever worry about the bad habits that are encouraged even though you can easily be fat having good ones? is doing things like cup cake eating etc... for effect really necessary? how do you handle it? how does it apply to you personally? i know i might be overly sensitive but i'd really like to hear everyone else's opinion on this stuff.



Funny. I think most 400+ 20-somethings might feel you're.._..saying something about it._


----------



## tonynyc

CrankySpice said:


> and yet:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny. I think most 400+ 20-somethings might feel you're.._..saying something about it._



*I sum it up to three things: God, luck and genetics.....*


----------



## collared Princess

CurvyEm said:


> You know I've just had the biggest panic attack of my life. It was absolutly terrifying and I was convinced I was about to have a heart attack. I had wound myself up to such a point where I was actually screaming a bit and begging my OH to call an ambulence.
> 
> I'm 25 and I shouldn't be convinced that I'm about to drop dead but its threads like this and the media that mean my life is plauged my life with constant anxiety and panic attacks and every night before I go to sleep I don't think I will wake up.




Belive me its not just you..its not just fat people..its everyone..this whole you are gonna die because.. has brought the zanex and anti anxiety pill makers allot of money..everyone seems to be on something these days and its all related to fear of this or fear of that..what if this..what if that..
Society for the most part has invented these fears connected with fat because if they didnt there would be a whole lot of fat people running around..or waddling..fear keeps people in line and makes them do what the majority desires them to do..


----------



## LillyBBBW

tonynyc said:


> *I sum it up to three things: God, luck and genetics.....*



It's true. A good friend of mine is younger than I am, tall, leggy blonde who eats healthy and exercises in the gym all the time. She's got hypertension and type II diabetes. It's hereditary. I don't have any of that, I'm older than she is and nearly triple the size. It's hereditary in my family too yet hers is an unfortunate circumstance but I'm a drain on the healthcare system if I 'fail' to prevent these things from happening.


----------



## DharmaDave

I recently lost my wife to a pulmonary embolism secondary to a deep vein thrombosis. While she was a big girl (250 lbs or so), she was very active and in no way lived what would be a sedentary lifestyle. We enjoyed hiking mountains together. Living in a big city without cars, we walked just about everywhere. She was also only 27. The death certificate, however said that obesity contributed to her death. I wonder if that really could be true. I think the birth control was a much larger factor. We had not travelled any long distance. She wasn't immobilized by an injury or something. HeThe autopsy didn't reveal anything that could have been the cause of the deep vein thrombosis aside from the stock answer of obesity. It makes me worry that the full figure that I was so attracted to could have been an initial cause of her death. It frightens me so much.


----------



## thirtiesgirl

DharmaDave said:


> I recently lost my wife to a pulmonary embolism secondary to a deep vein thrombosis. While she was a big girl (250 lbs or so), she was very active and in no way lived what would be a sedentary lifestyle. We enjoyed hiking mountains together. Living in a big city without cars, we walked just about everywhere. She was also only 27. The death certificate, however said that obesity contributed to her death. I wonder if that really could be true. I think the birth control was a much larger factor. We had not travelled any long distance. She wasn't immobilized by an injury or something. HeThe autopsy didn't reveal anything that could have been the cause of the deep vein thrombosis aside from the stock answer of obesity. It makes me worry that the full figure that I was so attracted to could have been an initial cause of her death. It frightens me so much.



I'm so sorry to hear this, Dave. I think you're on the right track to suspect the birth control medication. I've heard of similar cases with other women who have used birth control. It's dangerous for women and the reason why I usually talk up condoms and other forms of birth control.


----------



## LillyBBBW

DharmaDave said:


> I recently lost my wife to a pulmonary embolism secondary to a deep vein thrombosis. While she was a big girl (250 lbs or so), she was very active and in no way lived what would be a sedentary lifestyle. We enjoyed hiking mountains together. Living in a big city without cars, we walked just about everywhere. She was also only 27. The death certificate, however said that obesity contributed to her death. I wonder if that really could be true. I think the birth control was a much larger factor. We had not travelled any long distance. She wasn't immobilized by an injury or something. HeThe autopsy didn't reveal anything that could have been the cause of the deep vein thrombosis aside from the stock answer of obesity. It makes me worry that the full figure that I was so attracted to could have been an initial cause of her death. It frightens me so much.



I had pulmanary emboli when I was in my mid 20s brought on by use of the pill. I was in the 200s and it was the same thing: I was active, went moutain climbing, slept in tents, belonged to a muscle gym, etc. When I complained of shortness of breath the doctor told me it was because I was overweight and I needed more exercise. I knew something was really wrong though. 

I'm so sorry you lost your wife. I didn't want to tell you my story with your grief so fresh but my story is almost identical to your wife's story. After my recovery I joined a couple of support groups and I met 3 other people with stories that were the same. We did intense workouts, especially on our calves, were hikers, etc. One was male and had never taken hormones and of the four of us I was the only person that could be categorized as fat in any way. They were all petite and athletic. I lost 70 pounds and was taken off blood thinners. Within the span of a month I had another clot and was back in the hospital with another PE. I was lucky and I survived. I'm on thinners for life now and they don't really know why I keep getting them. Funny that the folks I met in the group predicted that I would be a lifer on the meds just as they all were despite their size and physical condition. I have a hunch that this is just something that happens to people and they don't really know why. Fat is a convenient hook to hang things on though. That's what I believe but you may still think differently.


----------



## DharmaDave

I'm glad you survived, Lilly. Your story is exactly like Robin's except that she's no longer here to tell it. What's strange is that she was more active and healthy than some half her size. No high blood pressure, nothing like that. She had a physical like two months previous. She regularly exercised. I find it improbable that her being fat caused it. I suppose you're right about how fatness is a convenient scapegoat. Tomorrow will be two months since that awful day. Thanks for sharing your story, Lilly. 


Dave


----------



## collared Princess

I just completed a small segment for a documentary to be released next year..In the segment I say," Im willing to bet that if I was found dead with an ice pick through my chest the cause of death would be obesity"


----------



## LillyBBBW

DharmaDave said:


> I'm glad you survived, Lilly. Your story is exactly like Robin's except that she's no longer here to tell it. What's strange is that she was more active and healthy than some half her size. No high blood pressure, nothing like that. She had a physical like two months previous. She regularly exercised. I find it improbable that her being fat caused it. I suppose you're right about how fatness is a convenient scapegoat. Tomorrow will be two months since that awful day. Thanks for sharing your story, Lilly.
> 
> 
> Dave



Yes, it was the same for me. I was a gymnist and was doing everthing but shooting crossbows off the roofs of moving vehicles I was so active. I was litterally taken straight to the ER off of a week long camping hike in the mountains and the doctor told me I was out of shape and sent me away. I survived months of breathing around broken clots in my lungs. It's terrible that your wife had to pay this horrible price Dave but there is no blame to be laid here on either of you. This was just an unfortunate happenstance where there was nothing anyone could do. I'm so sorry.


----------



## calauria

ashmamma84 said:


> Normally I don't say anything because it's not a popular opinion, but yes, I do think sometimes there's a limit where enough is enough and too much weight is unhealthy. I think people can delude themselves to thinking they are okay if their sugar levels or cholesterol isn't high yet. However, I don't consider being unable to walk but a couple steps and then resting or always relying on a scooter, a mark of being healthy.
> 
> I'm in my 20's and frankly, I have my whole life to be very fat. Having said that, I'm still a plus size woman. I happen to enjoy being active and eating well and realize it's not on everyone's priority list (let's be honest, some people just don't give a damn). I'm not on a diet and I don't restrict what I eat, but I've been practicing conscious eating for a while and I see the benefits. I feel good and it shows.
> 
> In my personal life, I have two good friends and several family members who are well above 400 lbs and sometimes I do worry about them because I see day-to-day what they go through and how they have to maneuver through life. One of my friends has several very serious health issues and we're about the same age, height. It's impacted her ability to lead a good life and that makes me sad for her. She doesn't travel much and long trips are almost out of the question, finding clothes is hard, etc. I've helped her look for sofas when she's worn them out in less than a year, locate a cobbler so she could have shoes custom made because store bought would not fit, etc. It just seems like once you're past a certain point it spirals out of control and becomes wildly expensive - on your pockets and your body. Probably your psyche too. And yet, she won't stop eating. I think she's just very very unhappy and it's how she self-medicates, unfortunately. All of the hurt, shame, anger, etc is stuffed down with the food.
> 
> I haven't talked to her in a while about it because I know I don't want to be badgered about my own weight (and really don't want to seem like a hypocrite - fat chick harping on other fat chick about being fat. Hunh? ). So, if she happens to bring it up again, I'll be honest and express my feelings about it. Just want her to do it in her own time if she chooses because I know how emotional and touchy that sort of thing can be.



In my honest opinion, I don't think your friend can't stop overeating and I think that it is an eating disorder now. I'm not a doctor. It's only my opinion. I think maybe a lot of things she is eating is increasing her appetite, too along with the compulsive and emotional eating...Just my opinion. I'm no doctor.

I went to my doctor this week and she has put me on a diet, because I have fibromyalgia and arthritis, the pain is getting worse and she doesn't want to put me on a lot of medication. I've had this condition when I weighed 130lbs. also and I did hurt a lot less, still was in pain, but a whole lot less, but now that I've gained, I hurt a lot more. I'd rather try, no matter how long it takes or how many times I might stray to lose the weight, because I don't like a lot of pain medications. Some of them can be habit forming, some of them have way too many dangerous side effects or both.


----------



## October

Dave, 

I am so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you.


----------



## Never2fat4me

supersoup said:


> i'm off to burn my bikinis, and dump my boyfriend.



Good ideas! Remember to dance around naked as you burn the bikinis, and get Heather to video it. You could make a mint! :eat2:

And after you get rid of the boyfriend, remember to PM me. I'll be waiting for ya... 

Chris


----------



## Never2fat4me

Tracyarts said:


> I just went from being active to sedentary and didn't adjust my food intake to compensate for it.



You are absolutely right, Tracy, about weight gain from being active to sedentary! I was about 175 in undergrad, when I did a lot of walking. Then I went off to law school and got a car. I put on 60 lbs in about 18 months (and gained another 30 lbs after that).

In terms of health issues, I also think being sedentary really is the problem. The difference between a "healthy" SSBBW/SSBHM and an "unhealthy" one is likely due to their level of activity. You're not going to find many people that are sedentary and very healthy, regardless of whether you are thin or fat. I am guilty of this myself - I go to work, work a very long day sitting in a chair the whole time, then come home and sit in front of a TV or a computer. It's not good for me, but I find it hard to motivate myself to do more. So any health problems I do have (not that I really have anything much to speak of beyond borderline high blood pressure) I blame on my sedentary lifestyle, not my weight.

Chris


----------



## Tau

collared Princess said:


> Belive me its not just you..its not just fat people..its everyone..this whole you are gonna die because.. has brought the zanex and anti anxiety pill makers allot of money..everyone seems to be on something these days and its all related to fear of this or fear of that..what if this..what if that..
> Society for the most part has invented these fears connected with fat because if they didnt there would be a whole lot of fat people running around..or waddling..fear keeps people in line and makes them do what the majority desires them to do..



But we are all gona die  I think I have personally found the knowledge that death is a constant no matter what I do really comforting. That doesn't mean I'm in the 'yay eat/drink/smoke yourself to death!!!' camp because thats not how I believe you live life well but I do believe in taking risks, feeling the greatest pains and pleasures possible while I still have time. I confess my greatest fear is being helpless - and I have absolutely no intention of ever getting there either through old age or extreme weight gain. This whole thread has made me think of something I read somewhere - we avoid risks in life so we can make it safely to death. We arrive here alone and we're going out the same way - I'm making sure to make every effort possible to exit the way I want to.


----------



## JMNYC

superodalisquelove---

This is a good thread, and a subject near and dear to my heart.

I found my father's dead body 4 years ago, and since then I have lived a different way.

Life is terminal---we all have a fatal illness. 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000 years after the demise of our physical body, it will be as though we were never here.

Important, therefore, to pack as much adventure, laughter, tears, wisdom and wonder into this lifetime before the end.

Health is physical but it is also mental, emotional, spiritual and vocational. 

I would rather live a long life, but if I don't, I am satisfied that I have wrung most of what anyone can wring out of it, as well as giving back to those I love and to strangers. No one is responsible for my physical experience in this life but me--and even I'm not in charge of the hypothalmus, my parathyroid, and the correct functioning of my organs and brain. 

It doesn't matter how one dies---it matters how they live. When you know you are going to die and so is every member of your family and everyone you ever knew---when you know you are going to give up your eyes, nose, teeth, hands, fat, and toes to the earth one day, as well as all your clothes, your wallet, your computer, your keys and every other physical object, you live in a different way, and what others do and don't do, what their experience of life is and what it isn't, matters less or not at all.

That's my Saturday sermon.  

And of course you care about people---you have a heart. Nothing wrong with caring or concern.


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## calauria

DharmaDave said:


> I recently lost my wife to a pulmonary embolism secondary to a deep vein thrombosis. While she was a big girl (250 lbs or so), she was very active and in no way lived what would be a sedentary lifestyle. We enjoyed hiking mountains together. Living in a big city without cars, we walked just about everywhere. She was also only 27. The death certificate, however said that obesity contributed to her death. I wonder if that really could be true. I think the birth control was a much larger factor. We had not travelled any long distance. She wasn't immobilized by an injury or something. HeThe autopsy didn't reveal anything that could have been the cause of the deep vein thrombosis aside from the stock answer of obesity. It makes me worry that the full figure that I was so attracted to could have been an initial cause of her death. It frightens me so much.



I'm so sorry. My condolensces.


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## LovelyLiz

JMNYC said:


> ...*It doesn't matter how one dies---it matters how they live.* When you know you are going to die and so is every member of your family and everyone you ever knew---when you know you are going to give up your eyes, nose, teeth, hands, fat, and toes to the earth one day, as well as all your clothes, your wallet, your computer, your keys and every other physical object, you live in a different way, and what others do and don't do, what their experience of life is and what it isn't, matters less or not at all....



I think this is a really helpful point to bring into the discussion. Like posters have said, even though there are certain things we can try to do to keep our bodies healthy, those things don't at all ensure that our bodies will in fact stay healthy. Everyone dies. We are not in total control of whether we get cancer, etc. 

So as you say, JMNYC, the choice comes down to how people choose to LIVE. And that comes entirely from what people value most. When I worked at a bookstore during college, I had a co-worker who was average sized, and maybe about 60 or so. One day he was talking about how if he didn't drink so much, or smoke, or eat so much red meat he would probably live longer. But he didn't want to live longer if he couldn't smoke, and drink, and eat lots of steak. 

It all comes down to how people want to live, and where they find value in life. The same could be said for someone who engages in risky physical stunts for fun and doesn't want to give those up. Some people (like maybe you, Felecia?) seem to value certain things like health, mobility, and longevity over anything else - and so you make your choices accordingly, based on those values. Other people (like my old bookstore coworker) valued other things more, and in turn made their own choices.

I don't think we have to pretend that all choices we make about foods and levels of activity lead to the same levels of healthfulness. Certain habits tend to have certain consequences. Maybe not all the time, but enough of the time. But the issue is, it seems difficult for people who value health and longevity above all else to understand (and be okay with) others who value other things in their lives more than longevity, mobility, etc. Along with this, some have brought up whether someone who has valued other things over "healthy" eating and exercise practices might somehow regret that later if they develop pain or poor health as a result of their choices.

I don't know what happened to my old coworker, whether he's still alive, or died a quick death, or a long painful death, or what. But honestly, I just don't see him sitting on his deathbed lamenting that he lived the life he wanted on his own terms.

But I guess this creates different categories for 1) people who intentionally make the choice to live in a certain way, and 2) people who feel more "out of control" in the way they are living. I wonder if the second type is more likely to have regrets later on? Just wondering aloud.


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## EtobicokeFA

DharmaDave said:


> I recently lost my wife to a pulmonary embolism secondary to a deep vein thrombosis. While she was a big girl (250 lbs or so), she was very active and in no way lived what would be a sedentary lifestyle. We enjoyed hiking mountains together. Living in a big city without cars, we walked just about everywhere. She was also only 27. The death certificate, however said that obesity contributed to her death. I wonder if that really could be true. I think the birth control was a much larger factor. We had not travelled any long distance. She wasn't immobilized by an injury or something. HeThe autopsy didn't reveal anything that could have been the cause of the deep vein thrombosis aside from the stock answer of obesity. It makes me worry that the full figure that I was so attracted to could have been an initial cause of her death. It frightens me so much.



I'm so sorry about you wife . My condolences.



LillyBBBW said:


> I had pulmanary emboli when I was in my mid 20s brought on by use of the pill. I was in the 200s and it was the same thing: I was active, went moutain climbing, slept in tents, belonged to a muscle gym, etc. When I complained of shortness of breath the doctor told me it was because I was overweight and I needed more exercise. I knew something was really wrong though.
> 
> I'm so sorry you lost your wife. I didn't want to tell you my story with your grief so fresh but my story is almost identical to your wife's story. After my recovery I joined a couple of support groups and I met 3 other people with stories that were the same. We did intense workouts, especially on our calves, were hikers, etc. One was male and had never taken hormones and of the four of us I was the only person that could be categorized as fat in any way. They were all petite and athletic. I lost 70 pounds and was taken off blood thinners. Within the span of a month I had another clot and was back in the hospital with another PE. I was lucky and I survived. I'm on thinners for life now and they don't really know why I keep getting them. Funny that the folks I met in the group predicted that I would be a lifer on the meds just as they all were despite their size and physical condition. I have a hunch that this is just something that happens to people and they don't really know why. Fat is a convenient hook to hang things on though. That's what I believe but you may still think differently.



I am glad you are okay now Lilly. 

But, yes it is all too easy to hook things on to weight. Because sometime it is scary to think that our health and the length of our life, something boils down to a roll of the dice. The though of mortality frightens people, but not as much then the fact that we can't really control our mortality. 

If you would have told me in high school or college that out of the my whole family it was the ones that where not overweight where the one to get all the healthy problems, I would call you crazy. But there you are. 

Somewhere in history, we started to equate body weight, and psychical fitness to health. Then the concept came out that our weight and our level of psychical fitness predicted how long we live. 

However, can we really tell why one person that smoke, drank and was overweight can live 70 healthy years. And the health nut vegetarian who die of a stroke. Or a vegetarian for most of his life, get diabetes.

What makes one body more able to cope with extra weight, even 400+ pounds, when another can't?

We say that it is sedentary lifestyle that gets us, but doesn't genes pay a bigger part? 



mcbeth said:


> I think this is a really helpful point to bring into the discussion. Like posters have said, even though there are certain things we can try to do to keep our bodies healthy, those things don't at all ensure that our bodies will in fact stay healthy. Everyone dies. We are not in total control of whether we get cancer, etc.
> 
> So as you say, JMNYC, the choice comes down to how people choose to LIVE. And that comes entirely from what people value most. When I worked at a bookstore during college, I had a co-worker who was average sized, and maybe about 60 or so. One day he was talking about how if he didn't drink so much, or smoke, or eat so much red meat he would probably live longer. But he didn't want to live longer if he couldn't smoke, and drink, and eat lots of steak.
> 
> It all comes down to how people want to live, and where they find value in life. The same could be said for someone who engages in risky physical stunts for fun and doesn't want to give those up. Some people (like maybe you, Felecia?) seem to value certain things like health, mobility, and longevity over anything else - and so you make your choices accordingly, based on those values. Other people (like my old bookstore coworker) valued other things more, and in turn made their own choices.
> 
> I don't think we have to pretend that all choices we make about foods and levels of activity lead to the same levels of healthfulness. Certain habits tend to have certain consequences. Maybe not all the time, but enough of the time. But the issue is, it seems difficult for people who value health and longevity above all else to understand (and be okay with) others who value other things in their lives more than longevity, mobility, etc. Along with this, some have brought up whether someone who has valued other things over "healthy" eating and exercise practices might somehow regret that later if they develop pain or poor health as a result of their choices.
> 
> I don't know what happened to my old coworker, whether he's still alive, or died a quick death, or a long painful death, or what. But honestly, I just don't see him sitting on his deathbed lamenting that he lived the life he wanted on his own terms.
> 
> But I guess this creates different categories for 1) people who intentionally make the choice to live in a certain way, and 2) people who feel more "out of control" in the way they are living. I wonder if the second type is more likely to have regrets later on? Just wondering aloud.



Great post.


----------



## LillyBBBW

EtobicokeFA said:


> I am glad you are okay now Lilly.
> 
> But, yes it is all too easy to hook things on to weight. Because sometime it is scary to think that our health and the length of our life, something boils down to a roll of the dice. The though of mortality frightens people, but not as much then the fact that we can't really control our mortality.
> 
> If you would have told me in high school or college that out of the my whole family it was the ones that where not overweight where the one to get all the healthy problems, I would call you crazy. But there you are.
> 
> Somewhere in history, we started to equate body weight, and psychical fitness to health. Then the concept came out that our weight and our level of psychical fitness predicted how long we live.
> 
> However, can we really tell why one person that smoke, drank and was overweight can live 70 healthy years. And the health nut vegetarian who die of a stroke. Or a vegetarian for most of his life, get diabetes.
> 
> What makes one body more able to cope with extra weight, even 400+ pounds, when another can't?
> 
> We say that it is sedentary lifestyle that gets us, but doesn't genes pay a bigger part?
> 
> 
> 
> Great post.



This is so true T. Clearly there is truth to be found in much of what is being said in regards to health and healthy habits. One shoud be mindful but the, "OMGDEAATJHFATT!!!" stuff that takes place these days has a more negative affect than positive. Now fat people _expect_ to be sick. When I first had my symptoms I knew something was wrong. I was just hard headed enough not to believe the doctor when he blamed my weight and told me to get more exercise. I was already fairly active. Instinct told me to slow down and it's a good thing I did. Had I did what he said I wouldn't be here talking with you right now and it would have been no loss to him.

On the other hand, something like this happens to a fatty and he or she might not even go to the doctor. People are so ashamed of becoming that sick waddling fatty that they keep things secret when they're not feeling well. Nobody wants to see that tsk tsk look of condemnation as the doc, friends and family members berate them for being in the position they're in. Weight is indeed the convenient hook for everything that goes wrong and it's a dangerous thing. The irony is that visually I am the walking cautionary tale people refer to when they want people to not become fat tho I survived where folks better than me did not. The stigma is a tremendous weight to bear and discussions like these are arbitrary and don't help at all.


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## Tracyarts

" The difference between a "healthy" SSBBW/SSBHM and an "unhealthy" one is likely due to their level of activity. " 

To a degree. But for some people there is a limit where that no longer holds true because the weight simply overwhelms their body. I used to believe that the answer to healthy at any size was a balanced diet and remaining active. And I totally counted on that simple strategy to work for me. 

I found that the loss of ability to remain active was a process. I initially became a little less active because of an injury and didn't eat any less to compensate for it, so I gained a little weight. And found that during any kind of activity, even just walking around a store, I hurt a little more quickly and got out of breath and fatigued a little more easily. And that reduced my stamina. Which in return lowered my activity level. But, I didn't lower my food intake to compensate for that lowered activity level and I gained a little bit more more weight. And again, more pain and fatigue, less breathing capacity, lower stamina. So even less activity and still no food intake adjustment so more weight came on. And all this while my health started to suffer.

And this process continued until I found myself with poor health and severely compromised mobility. Now, there were times where I tried to take control of and reverse the situation. I tried pushing myself past my activity level limit in hopes of breaking through some kind of wall with the pain and fatigue. But all it did was exhaust me mentally and physically. And by that point lowering my food intake to compensate for my activity level meant dropping it so low that I didn't feel as if I was getting enough to eat. That didn't work because I couldn't handle feeling hungry all the time. During the worst of it, I was on a half dozen medications, and close to being housebound. 

At that point I was advised to try water therapy, and found that as soon as I got into the water, the burden of the excess weight was removed from my body and I no longer had any pain or fatigue limitations. The moment I climbed out of the pool the weight came back on as did the pain and fatigue. But at least I had a way to be active again. So, I started to spend a minimum of two hours a day, five days a week, in the pool. Walking, doing cardio classes, doing resistance strength training, doing stretches, and just moving around for the fun of it. 

But just being active again was not enough to make much of a difference in my mobility and health. During this time I did not increase my food intake, so after about six months I was able to lose about forty pounds. THEN I started to see improvements in my health and mobility. And the more I lost, the less my back hurt and the more I could do without getting fatigued and out of breath. And the health problems got better and I started tapering off medications. 

So, for me, regardless of being an active fatty or a sedentary fatty, there is still a limit to how much of a fatty I can be and remain healthy and mobile. For a while I felt like I was a "bad fatty" for not being able to do the healthy at any size thing, but realized that it has nothing to do with that, it has to do with the reality of the physical limitations of my body. And there is no shame whatsoever, and no failure or self-loathing involved in needing to be less fat in order to have more of a life.

Tracy


----------



## Jes

EtobicokeFA said:


> What makes one body more able to cope with extra weight, even 400+ pounds, when another can't?
> .



you know, good question. i think one only finds out by trying. and if it turns out you're in the 'not able to cope' category... I fear that. Like Tracy said, above. Obviously, some people do not. But I know I do. So I think that's why I try to make deliberate choices, like McBeth was mentioning. A life of not crunching the numbers and eating what I like, or not being active, but with the result of loss of mobility, or discomfort, or some difficulty in negotiating space b/c of my size isn't worth it to me. I'm also a Type A personality, so I always try to make sure my bases are covered (in everything). But lots of people are Type B, or C or Z! Each has its plusses.


----------



## LillyBBBW

Tracyarts said:


> " The difference between a "healthy" SSBBW/SSBHM and an "unhealthy" one is likely due to their level of activity. "
> 
> To a degree. But for some people there is a limit where that no longer holds true because the weight simply overwhelms their body. I used to believe that the answer to healthy at any size was a balanced diet and remaining active. And I totally counted on that simple strategy to work for me.
> 
> I found that the loss of ability to remain active was a process. I initially became a little less active because of an injury and didn't eat any less to compensate for it, so I gained a little weight. And found that during any kind of activity, even just walking around a store, I hurt a little more quickly and got out of breath and fatigued a little more easily. And that reduced my stamina. Which in return lowered my activity level. But, I didn't lower my food intake to compensate for that lowered activity level and I gained a little bit more more weight. And again, more pain and fatigue, less breathing capacity, lower stamina. So even less activity and still no food intake adjustment so more weight came on. And all this while my health started to suffer.
> 
> And this process continued until I found myself with poor health and severely compromised mobility. Now, there were times where I tried to take control of and reverse the situation. I tried pushing myself past my activity level limit in hopes of breaking through some kind of wall with the pain and fatigue. But all it did was exhaust me mentally and physically. And by that point lowering my food intake to compensate for my activity level meant dropping it so low that I didn't feel as if I was getting enough to eat. That didn't work because I couldn't handle feeling hungry all the time. During the worst of it, I was on a half dozen medications, and close to being housebound.
> 
> At that point I was advised to try water therapy, and found that as soon as I got into the water, the burden of the excess weight was removed from my body and I no longer had any pain or fatigue limitations. The moment I climbed out of the pool the weight came back on as did the pain and fatigue. But at least I had a way to be active again. So, I started to spend a minimum of two hours a day, five days a week, in the pool. Walking, doing cardio classes, doing resistance strength training, doing stretches, and just moving around for the fun of it.
> 
> But just being active again was not enough to make much of a difference in my mobility and health. During this time I did not increase my food intake, so after about six months I was able to lose about forty pounds. THEN I started to see improvements in my health and mobility. And the more I lost, the less my back hurt and the more I could do without getting fatigued and out of breath. And the health problems got better and I started tapering off medications.
> 
> So, for me, regardless of being an active fatty or a sedentary fatty, there is still a limit to how much of a fatty I can be and remain healthy and mobile. For a while I felt like I was a "bad fatty" for not being able to do the healthy at any size thing, but realized that it has nothing to do with that, it has to do with the reality of the physical limitations of my body. And there is no shame whatsoever, and no failure or self-loathing involved in needing to be less fat in order to have more of a life.
> 
> Tracy



That is exactly true. Things like that don't balance out the same for everyone. A lot of it depends on genetics. For me it was just the opposite. Every horrible thing that ever happened to me came as a result of attempting weight loss. The clotting disorder was merely the tip of the iceberg. Yes there are things that are much improved with a smaller size but I've spent more times in hospitals left with conditions that I didn't have before. It's highly unusual for this to happen to people but it does happen and it seems to be a genetic thing in my family as I study my family history. I wouldn't use it as a word of warning for other people who are trying to lose weight but I find I always have to defend myself over my choice to relax and practice balance. I injured my knee a while ago, had surgery on it and was using a cane and people looked at me with such disapproval. There's a lot of, "How could you?" that comes at the hand of the well meaning, especially people who were fat and did lose weight. I do have weight related aches and pains sometimes that would probably be less or non existant if I lost a little weight. Unfortunately I've learned that there are much scarier things in life. It's not everybody's story though. If something should happen and I die, there is not cautionary tale here. I just died, that's all. Unless I was shot in a robbery or something. The moral there is don't bank at the Sovereign Bank on Boylston Street.


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## bigmac

superodalisque said:


> I have had a lot of friends from dims die horrible deaths in just the few years i've been here. i have to say it has affected me very deeply. none of them even reached their 50s.



This post highlights a conflict that I'm sure many FAs have -- how do we reconcile our desire that our partners be fat with the fact that if they get too fat the health consequences can be severe (even deadly). On this second point there seems to be quite a bit of denial on this board. However there's no escaping facts -- at some point (and that point varies greatly with the individual) fatness becomes incapacitating and once a person is incapacitated health problems mushroom.

So what to do? We all know that diets don't work and WLS has all sorts of nasty consequences. I'm thinking that the best way to proceed is to support healthy lifestyles and advocate for the availability of exercise and recreational activities that fat people can participate in (like the water therapy class Tracy attends). Hopefully this can result in those 400lb twenty somethings living to be healthy 400lb seventy somethings rather that house bound (or worse) 600lb forty somethings.

Of course this mean relegating feederism to the realm of fantasy only. As an FA I don't have a problem with this. My wife (Petunia805) is eight months pregnant -- she obviously wants to be around for another 30 or 40 years so she can raise our kids and help with the eventual grand kids. This should be possible if she maintains her weight in the 340-360 range. It would not be possible if I fattened her up to 600lbs.


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## LoveBHMS

> Of course this mean relegating feederism to the realm of fantasy only. As an FA I don't have a problem with this. My wife (Petunia805) is eight months pregnant -- she obviously wants to be around for another 30 or 40 years so she can raise our kids and help with the eventual grand kids. This should be possible if she maintains her weight in the 340-360 range. It would not be possible if I fattened her up to 600lbs.



There is no reason to make this a knock on feederism. As I've said before, weight gain is weight gain. Your body isn't going to know how the weight was gained. What if you practice feederism and a person goes from 100 to 115? Then is it ok? I can't speak for all feeders, but for me what is hot is the process of weight gain, not even necessarily being fatter. I'm more into a 10 pound gain than a man being 20 pounds heavier. Just where my wiring is. And as Carrie pointed out, the overwhelming majority of SS people did not get that way from feederism.

It also bothers me that you choose the weight your wife is at to be deemed healthy enough, while a random higher weight is dangerous. I'm willing to bet a LOT of doctors won't believe that an adult female should weigh over 350 pounds. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, just that it seems wrong for you to determine what she should weigh based on what you find attractive. I mean if you're cool with your wife being over 300, can I have the leeway to feed a male partner up to 250 or 275?

This thread has a fuck-ton of what can only be described as rationalization. The OP is watching SS people die and worrying over it, yet isn't trying to lose weight herself. Bigmac worries over the health of fat people, yet decides that his wife is ok continuing to be SS, so long as she stays in a certain weight range. Reminds me of the old admonition that when you point a finger, three are pointing back at you.


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## superodalisque

I really have to apologize for this thread. i really did not know there had been another passing. if i had known i wouldn't have posted it. i'm sure there were people who might have thought i knew and was being insensitive purposefully. but i had absolutely no idea at all until i was told just now. my deepest sympathies and apologies to those i may have offended.


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## Isa

superodalisque said:


> I really have to apologize for this thread. i really did not know there had been another very recent passing. if i had known i wouldn't have posted it. i'm sure there were people who might have thought i knew and was being insensitive purposefully. but i had absolutely no idea until i was told just now. my deepest sympathies and apologies to those i've offended.



You could have posted it now or six months on and the response would probably have been the same. The recent death of a dimmer did not cause the negative reactions received here, being asked to question reality did.


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## Carrie

Isa said:


> You could have posted it now or six months on and the response would probably have been the same. The recent death of a dimmer did not cause the negative reactions received here, being asked to question reality did.


That's disappointing.


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## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> I really have to apologize for this thread. i really did not know there had been another passing. if i had known i wouldn't have posted it. i'm sure there were people who might have thought i knew and was being insensitive purposefully. but i had absolutely no idea at all until i was told just now. my deepest sympathies and apologies to those i may have offended.


For what it's worth, Felecia, I believe you. I don't think for a minute you would use someone's passing in an opportunistic fashion.


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## KHayes666

superodalisque said:


> I really have to apologize for this thread. i really did not know there had been another passing. if i had known i wouldn't have posted it. i'm sure there were people who might have thought i knew and was being insensitive purposefully. but i had absolutely no idea at all until i was told just now. my deepest sympathies and apologies to those i may have offended.



Like Carrie, I've known you long enough to know that when you say you didn't post this out of spite, I believe you.

There really isn't a good time to start a discussion like this. Its going to start a ruckus every time.


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## AnnMarie

I would never assume this thread was based off/around another passing - and I don't think anyone would - especially since, again, like the others - we don't know the whys and wherefores of anyone's passing unless we are told by family. 

The speculation in this latest case could easily be focused in a very, very different direction - but it's just that - speculation. It's irresponsible and hysteria-driven to assume we know anything about anyone's passing.


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## bigmac

Love, you made several points lets take them one at a time.



LoveBHMS said:


> There is no reason to make this a knock on feederism. As I've said before, weight gain is weight gain. Your body isn't going to know how the weight was gained. What if you practice feederism and a person goes from 100 to 115? Then is it ok?



This is a classic strawman argument. Gaining 10, 15, or even 20 pounds may change the way a thin person looks a little bit but its not going to have any measurable impact on health.



LoveBHMS said:


> And as Carrie pointed out, the overwhelming majority of SS people did not get that way from feederism.



This is very true. People get fat for a variety of reasons. Some people can go through life 50-75 pounds overweight with no appreciable health effects -- others can ruin their health gaining -- loosing -- and gaining the same 40 pounds over and over. Neither the OP nor my reply dealt with these people. It seem that both the OP and myself are concerned about people who for whatever reason are already supersized. We're aware that its very hard if not impossible to loose weight but often quite easy to gain more. I think the size acceptance community should support and encourage people who, while not necessarily unhappy with their size, don't want to gain more weight. Indeed the size acceptance community is uniquely able to help people understand why they got fat in the first place, get control, and accept the fact that once fat its unlikely you'll ever be thin.

When feederism involves encouraging supersized people to gain hundreds of pounds it crosses the boundary from erotic to abusive. 



LoveBHMS said:


> It also bothers me that you choose the weight your wife is at to be deemed healthy enough, while a random higher weight is dangerous. I'm willing to bet a LOT of doctors won't believe that an adult female should weigh over 350 pounds. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, just that it seems wrong for you to determine what she should weigh based on what you find attractive.



I didn't choose my wife's weight -- it is what it is. She was on track to be a fairly athletic 200 pounder (i.e. she was a star soccer player until her freshman year of high school). For a lot of reasons after high school she ate her way up to over 500 pounds. She was very healthy (i.e. good blood pressure and such) despite her weight. However her mobility was steadily decreasing -- to the extent it was affecting her ability to work and take care of her young daughter. So at 511 pounds she had WLS -- the operation was botched and she almost died. But she did loose 90 pounds and regained enough mobility to continue working (at a career she loved).

Then I met her. When she moved in with me she was removed from a lot of the family dysfunction that caused her to eat -- she lost another 90 pounds -- bottoming out at about 330 pounds after our first child together. SO NO I'M NOT BASING MY ARGUMENT ON WHAT WEIGHT I FIND ATTRACTIVE. I'm simply acknowledging that once her weight stabilizes after childbirth that will be the weight we're stuck with for better or worse. Her best course moving forward is to NOT gain weight, accept the weight she's at, and eat and live as well as possible. 



LoveBHMS said:


> Bigmac worries over the health of fat people, yet decides that his wife is ok continuing to be SS, so long as she stays in a certain weight range. Reminds me of the old admonition that when you point a finger, three are pointing back at you.



Yes I do worry about the health of people I love. As stated above my wife is a SSBBW. That's a fact she and I have to deal with. If I could waive a magic wand and turn my wife into the 200lb woman she was on track to be before before her life got all fucked up I certainly would. Since I can't do that we have to play the cards on the table. A stable weight and healthy lifestyle going forward is my wife's (and I'd argue most SSBBW's) best shot at a long active life.

Notice feederism is not part of this mix.


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## LoveBHMS

You were the one who brought up feederism and linked it with being 600 pounds. Feederism is a sexual fetish, and its practice can be, and often is, totally independent of massive weight gain. The number of people who actually weigh 600 pounds is relatively small, and even among those many of them gained weight because they wanted to and it felt good to them.

I'd actually worry less about the health of somebody who intentionally gained due to erotic weight gain or feederism. While the excess weight can cause problems, as can doing what is typically done to gain large amounts of weight, a person who willingly gained probably didn't have health issues that caused it. If somebody gains over 300 pounds without wanting to, there is a good chance there are serious mental and physical health issues in play. To even insist that somebody who'd just gained over 300 pounds was very healthy makes no sense at all, and using random indicators like blood pressure to rationalize the insistence that the person is healthy is even more of a strawman argument.


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## BeaBea

LoveBHMS said:


> The number of people who actually weigh 600 pounds is relatively small, and even among those many of them gained weight because they wanted to and it felt good to them.



I'd love to know what you base the second part of that statement on. 
Sorry, that sounds snarky but its not meant to be. Its just that its the complete polar opposite of my personal experience and the vast majority of conversations I've had with other super-sized people. 

Tracey


----------



## Dolce

bigmac said:


> When feederism involves encouraging supersized people to gain hundreds of pounds it crosses the boundary from erotic to abusive.



Thank you.


----------



## LoveBHMS

> I'd love to know what you base the second part of that statement on.



Observation of, and involvement in the feederism/fetish community, including just reading through this thread.

The overwhelming majority of human bodies are simply not going to weigh 600pounds. I think simple common sense and observing the population in general will tell you that it is very rare for somebody to get to that weight without consuming a great deal of food and having a very low activity level. I'm not making any judgement calls about anyone's size, but empirical evidence derived from just looking around will demonstrate this.


----------



## superodalisque

LoveBHMS said:


> Observation of, and involvement in the feederism/fetish community, including just reading through this thread.
> 
> The overwhelming majority of human bodies are simply not going to weigh 600pounds. I think simple common sense and observing the population in general will tell you that it is very rare for somebody to get to that weight without consuming a great deal of food and having a very low activity level. I'm not making any judgement calls about anyone's size, but empirical evidence derived from just looking around will demonstrate this.



there are times when a low activity level and high food consumption are not always a matter of people wanting that or not. it may simply be a reality of life. believing most people reach that size because it just feels good is a highly over simplified viewpoint thats fantasy oriented. i know quite a few people that size and they would only say that if they were paid to. especially since feeling good may not be one of the exact outcomes of having to carry that weight on your bones and joints. that alone is generally painful and difficult. 

there needs to be some serious reality checks around here about what all of that weight means to people. it doesn't mean we have to castigate people who are fat but disneyfying them and their life isn't fair to them. it takes a lot of care, effort and tenacity to be that big. i think its patronizing to pretend it means nothing and everyone that size just wants to be that way because its just fun. that viewpoint just diminishes everything it takes to just do basic living at that level.


----------



## LoveBHMS

I said many people chose to be that size, not most of them. 

I'm in no way disneyfying anyone or anyone's life. The fact is I've agreed with much of what the OP said. All I have said is that you can't make assumptions about who is and isn't happy with their size and you can't make assumptions about how they got that way.

Another simple fact is that there are many more people in this community who are into feederism than are willing to admit it on here. I, and others, have had numerous experiences of people who post on Dims privately admitting they're into it even though they don't discuss it at all on these boards. I am not saying most people are into erotic weight gain even though they deny it, but I am saying a lot more people are than are admitting it.


----------



## bigmac

LoveBHMS said:


> You were the one who brought up feederism and linked it with being 600 pounds. Feederism is a sexual fetish, and its practice can be, and often is, totally independent of massive weight gain.



In cases where thin people or small BBWs/BHMs gain 10, 20, even 50 pounds there's really little downside medically. So if that's what you're into knock yourself out.

However, Its my personal belief that feeders who encourage people who are already supersize to gain more weight are being abusive.



LoveBHMS said:


> The number of people who actually weigh 600 pounds is relatively small, and even among those many of them gained weight because they wanted to and it felt good to them.



One of the reasons there are so few 600 pounders is that people don't live long at that weight. Also, even if it felt good eating oneself to super-supersized proportions it won't feel good living what's left of one's life at that size. 



LoveBHMS said:


> If somebody gains over 300 pounds without wanting to, there is a good chance there are serious mental and physical health issues in play.



Never disagreed with this point. Indeed I think its a key point. Any person who gains hundreds of pounds probably does have serious psychological and/or physical issues (my wife didn't have any physical issues but she did have psychological issues resulting form an abusive dysfunctional family).

Hooking up with a person who's gaining massive amounts of weight due to either medical or psychological issues and encouraging them to gain even more is textbook abuse in my books. 



LoveBHMS said:


> The overwhelming majority of human bodies are simply not going to weigh 600pounds. I think simple common sense and observing the population in general will tell you that it is very rare for somebody to get to that weight without consuming a great deal of food and having a very low activity level. I'm not making any judgement calls about anyone's size, but empirical evidence derived from just looking around will demonstrate this.



Again this is true. But the people the OP and I are talking about already weighed 300 or 400 pounds in their 20s. These people obviously have the potential to gain another hundred or two hundred pounds. We're concerned that if they do their lives will be short and painful.

I understand why diet talk is forbidden here -- but I'd like the community to be more supportive of people who just want to stay as healthy as possible -- impossible if we deny the fact that extreme weight is dangerous.


----------



## collared Princess

bigmac said:


> This post highlights a conflict that I'm sure many FAs have -- how do we reconcile our desire that our partners be fat with the fact that if they get too fat the health consequences can be severe (even deadly). On this second point there seems to be quite a bit of denial on this board. However there's no escaping facts -- at some point (and that point varies greatly with the individual) fatness becomes incapacitating and once a person is incapacitated health problems mushroom.
> 
> So what to do? We all know that diets don't work and WLS has all sorts of nasty consequences. I'm thinking that the best way to proceed is to support healthy lifestyles and advocate for the availability of exercise and recreational activities that fat people can participate in (like the water therapy class Tracy attends). Hopefully this can result in those 400lb twenty somethings living to be healthy 400lb seventy somethings rather that house bound (or worse) 600lb forty somethings.
> 
> Of course this mean relegating feederism to the realm of fantasy only. As an FA I don't have a problem with this. My wife (Petunia805) is eight months pregnant -- she obviously wants to be around for another 30 or 40 years so she can raise our kids and help with the eventual grand kids. This should be possible if she maintains her weight in the 340-360 range. It would not be possible if I fattened her up to 600lbs.




I dont feel that f.a's should feel bad or guilty about being attracted to a big woman..Society thinks that if your fat you should just "loose weight" just loose it..yeah 90% of the diet industry is not effective..loosing weight is like living at the bottom of MT Everest,every morning getting up and having to climb to the top of that mountian..its just impossible..a struggle I wish not to have anything to do with anymore.My point is Im very thankful for f.a's..everyone needs love..everyone has the right to be loved..we need love by men and women who desire us totally..Most of us will stay the same weight no matter what..Fat women are not going anywhere..We will always be here..We may diet from time to time but chances are it wont be successful and we will probally gain more weight..so we are hear to stay and we need men who are attracted to us.

I think it is silly for you to put a range of 340-360..I know women who are that range and struggle with issues,when women in the 500-600 range do well..everyone is an indivdual..it must just ease your conscience to spit out those numbers


----------



## LoveBHMS

collared Princess said:


> I think it is silly for you to put a range of 340-360..I know women who are that range and struggle with issues,when women in the 500-600 range do well..everyone is an indivdual..it must just ease your conscience to spit out those numbers



Agreed. I just have a hard time understanding an OP who worries over others at the same weight she is, and an FA who randomly decides that his wife's weight is totally healthy. Doesn't it make sense that if a 400 pound woman in her twenties has the potential to gain a hundred or two hundred more pounds, that a woman in her late thirties weighing over 350 also has the potential to gain a hundred pounds or more and thus placing her in the unhealthy category? Since you're making a point of there being some magical divide between people in their twenties being SS and people in their thirties and older being SS, doesn't it stand to reason that since your wife is close to 40 that you should be encouraging her to lose weight?

As CurvyEm pointed out, the vast majority of the population would not think a SS person of any age is healthy.

And once again I have no idea about your wife or her health situation, nor is it any of my business. But I think you need to apply the same standards across the board and not cherry pick and choose who is and isn't at an acceptable size.



> Hooking up with a person who's gaining massive amounts of weight due to either medical or psychological issues and encouraging them to gain even more is textbook abuse in my books.



Agreed, but once again you're confusing feeders with sociopaths.


----------



## bigmac

collared Princess said:


> I dont feel that f.a's should feel bad or guilty about being attracted to a big woman.



I don't either -- this was never the issue. The issue is people putting their heads in the sand regarding weight gain by people who are already supersize.



collared Princess said:


> Society thinks that if your fat you should just "loose weight" just loose it..yeah 90% of the diet industry is not effective..loosing weight is like living at the bottom of MT Everest,every morning getting up and having to climb to the top of that mountian..its just impossible..a struggle I wish not to have anything to do with anymore.



I agree 100% -- diets don't work! However, this is all the more reason to avoid gaining when you're already fat. Once on its never coming off.



collared Princess said:


> I think it is silly for you to put a range of 340-360..I know women who are that range and struggle with issues,when women in the 500-600 range do well..everyone is an indivdual..it must just ease your conscience to spit out those numbers



The range I mentioned was an example that applied only to my wife. Its an acknowledgment that diets don't work -- i.e. that she likely won't be able to maintain a weight less than that given the number and size of fat cells she's developed over the last 38 years. At 340-360 pounds she's still going to have size related issues and she'd rather be lighter. However, as you pointed out, since diets don't work we'll have to make the best of the situation we have. That means not gain any more weight, eating well (not dieting), and being as active as possible.



LoveBHMS said:


> Agreed. I just have a hard time understanding an OP who worries over others at the same weight she is, and an FA who randomly decides that his wife's weight is totally healthy.



What I said was that the healthiest course of action was to maintain the weight she had. We all know diets don't work so being smaller is not really an option. I didn't randomly choose my wife's weight -- her genetics and circumstances and choices over the last 38 years did. I never said her weight was totally healthy -- she'd love to undue some of her past choices but since that's impossible she and I have to make the best choices going forward.


----------



## LoveBHMS

> I don't either -- this was never the issue. The issue is people putting their heads in the sand regarding weight gain by people who are already supersize.



When did the issue become about weight gain by those who are supersized? I thought the issue was those who were supersized in the first place.



> I agree 100% -- diets don't work! However, this is all the more reason to avoid gaining when you're already fat. Once on its never coming off.



Except didn't you already say she's lost over 100 pounds as an adult? To say that nobody is capable of weight loss is every bit as silly as saying everyone above X number of pounds has certain health issues. Nobody is saying that large amounts of weight can't cause problems, and certainly nobody thinks that many of the choices that cause the weight gain are not problematic. And nobody is saying a large weight gain might not be symptomatic of a serious mental or physical health problem. However bringing up feederism or assuming that people who choose to gain large amounts of weight dont know what they're doing are wrong. 

Truth be told I've been horrified by some things I've read on this board; I'm genuninely bothered when somebody posts about serious health issues and then talks about all the junk food they eat or talks about wanting to gain weight. I think it's very likely that some posters on here are headed for very serious problems. That being said, until such time as anyone is sending me their medical bills or asking my opinion on their lifestyle, I'm keeping my trap shut.


----------



## Tracyarts

" I agree 100% -- diets don't work! However, this is all the more reason to avoid gaining when you're already fat. Once on its never coming off. "


Not a universal truth. 

There are plenty of fat people, myself included, who have lost some weight and kept it off. I'm not talking about people going from supersized to thin, but simply becoming less fat. In my case the initial loss several years ago was only 20% of my body weight. It wasn't a drastic amount, but it was enough to stop the deterioration of my health and to reclaim some of my mobility. 

Tracy


----------



## superodalisque

Tracyarts said:


> " I agree 100% -- diets don't work! However, this is all the more reason to avoid gaining when you're already fat. Once on its never coming off. "
> 
> 
> Not a universal truth.
> 
> There are plenty of fat people, myself included, who have lost some weight and kept it off. I'm not talking about people going from supersized to thin, but simply becoming less fat. In my case the initial loss several years ago was only 20% of my body weight. It wasn't a drastic amount, but it was enough to stop the deterioration of my health and to reclaim some of my mobility.
> 
> Tracy



NEVER and CAN'T are messed up words especially when no one is trying to be thin in the 1st place.
they wouldn't let me rep you.


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## KHayes666

No two people are the same Bigmac.

Maybe your wife couldn't handle being 500-600 pounds while I know others who are and could possibly. I can name 3 off the top of my head who are active, upbeat and happy. I understand your case of "when is someone too big?" and you're right in the sense that most women just wouldn't be able to handle extreme obesity. I admire you realizing your wife's limits and don't think I'm knocking you at all.

The only point I'm making is please don't say that ALL men and women shouldn't have desires, fantasies or aspirations to be supersized because everyone's different. Others can carry the weight well and others are just genetically designed better.


----------



## CastingPearls

LoveBHMS said:


> snip/
> 
> Agreed, but once again you're confusing feeders with sociopaths.



This is true.


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> In cases where thin people or small BBWs/BHMs gain 10, 20, even 50 pounds there's really little downside medically. So if that's what you're into knock yourself out.
> 
> However, Its my personal belief that feeders who encourage people who are already supersize to gain more weight are being abusive.



So, how about adults who are sane, self-motivated feedees?
Who choose to gain anyway...
What would you say is the correct moral position for an FA (or feeder, or neither) partner, or prospective partner?

If the feedee desires the outcome, is it still "abuse" (your word) to "enable" his/her weight gain? Or only if the feedee exceeds a certain weight? (what weight exactly?)

If the partner is not a feeder, or maybe not even an FA, is it still "abuse" if they "enable" their supersized feedee partner to fulfil their weight gain wishes?
Or is it only "abuse" if the feeder partner enjoys it???

If the measure of "abuse" is providing some/any food to a partner over a certain size, i.e. "enabling" them by helping to provide a safe, loving home where the feedee partner feels happy to eat and grow as they wish - then does that mean that anyone who dates a self-motivated already supersize feedee and does not actively try to prevent them gaining are somehow automatically abusers???

Do FAs / feeders "enable" fat people's gaining just by our existence?? Cos maybe, possibly, perhaps we represent a hope of lovesexy happiness without having to lose weight, to some fat people? (some who might otherwise be happy with the other aspects of being fat, except they have been taught they are somehow unworthy of love by society at large...) 

Is indeed the entire potical SA movement somehow morally implicated in teh dangerfatnezz by our failure to join the fat-hate/shame and diet lobby? And our promotion of self-acceptance and health-at-any-size??? (certainly that's what Meme Roth and her ilk would have us believe)

I remember when I was 16 and my at-the-time healthy gran asked me to go buy her cigarettes, and I refused cos I didn't want to help her smoke herself to death (which she eventually did.... 6 years later... at age 72...) would it have been "enabling" or "abuse" if I had gone and bought those cigarettes for her?

*These are serious questions about personal responsibility / autonomy here...
Where and what lines should be drawn?
And who should be doing the drawing?*



> One of the reasons there are so few 600 pounders is that people don't live long at that weight. *Also, even if it felt good eating oneself to super-supersized proportions it won't feel good living what's left of one's life at that size. *



^assumption there. Any supersized posters care to chime in on this point??




> Never disagreed with this point. Indeed I think its a key point. Any person who gains hundreds of pounds probably does have serious psychological and/or physical issues (my wife didn't have any physical issues but she did have psychological issues resulting form an abusive dysfunctional family).



^Oh, that's a big assumption - I think there's a number of feedees on here who'd disagree with that...?? Not to mention - you are diagnosing by weight alone, which is very, very shaky ground medically....



> Hooking up with a person who's gaining massive amounts of weight due to either medical or psychological issues and encouraging them to gain even more is textbook abuse in my books.



And so if you happen to be a feeder, and you meet a gainer who says they are happy and love gaining, or even a foodee who says they are comfortable with / indifferent to their gaining... Then what - you should subject them to a battery of tests before dating them?? Y'know.... in case they are ill or mad?? Otherwise you're an "abuser"??? :doh:



> Again this is true. But the people the OP and I are talking about already weighed 300 or 400 pounds in their 20s. These people obviously have the potential to gain another hundred or two hundred pounds. We're concerned that if they do their lives will be short and painful.
> 
> I understand why diet talk is forbidden here -- but *I'd like the community to be more supportive of people who just want to stay as healthy as possible -- impossible if we deny the fact that extreme weight is dangerous.*



^I disagree with your assertion there.
I don't think it's necessary, or helpful*, or even true** for "the community" to state "extreme weight is dangerous" as an essential plank of the pursuit of health by any one individual...

(* stress = damaging to health. Constant "ZOMGYOU=DEATHFATZ" = stress. See also CurvyEm's post upthread, re. her panic attack off the back of fat scaremongering

**given your lack of definition of "extreme" and entire abscence of nuance / qualification or variation from one individual to another... there are people posting on DIMS who have attested to their good health who outweigh by 100 or more pounds other people who have posted attesting to their poor health)


----------



## musicman

joswitch said:


> Do FAs / feeders "enable" fat people's gaining just by our existence?? Cos maybe, possibly, perhaps we represent a hope of lovesexy happiness without having to lose weight, to some fat people? (some who might otherwise be happy with the other aspects of being fat, except they have been taught they are somehow unworthy of love by society at large...)
> 
> Is indeed the entire potical SA movement somehow morally implicated in teh dangerfatnezz by our failure to join the fat-hate/shame and diet lobby? And our promotion of self-acceptance and health-at-any-size??? (certainly that's what Meme Roth and her ilk would have us believe)




Good point. If we're going to be as judgmental as BigMac recommends, how can we tolerate our own existence as FAs? The rest of the world thinks FAs are just as bad as feeders, because the only acceptable behavior is to shame, harrass, and heckle your loved ones, which will somehow "encourage" them to lose weight. Remember, kiddies, FAs are equal to feeders! (  <-- Smiley added for the sarcasm-impaired.)

The answer is obvious. We CANNOT be judgmental in the matter of anyone else's weight. To me, that's what size acceptance is all about.


----------



## bigmac

musicman said:


> Good point. If we're going to be as judgmental as BigMac recommends, how can we tolerate our own existence as FAs? The rest of the world thinks FAs are just as bad as feeders, because the only acceptable behavior is to shame, harrass, and heckle your loved ones, which will somehow "encourage" them to lose weight. Remember, kiddies, FAs are equal to feeders! (  <-- Smiley added for the sarcasm-impaired.)
> 
> The answer is obvious. We CANNOT be judgmental in the matter of anyone else's weight. To me, that's what size acceptance is all about.



WTF -- were did this come from. I said we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand regarding the realities of being super-supersize. The OP said pretty much the same thing. How is it judgmental for people in their forties, who have seen what extreme weight gain has done to our friends and family, to worry about what the future holds for the next generation of the super-supersize.

I'm not trying to harass, or shame anyone -- and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone go on a diet. However, size acceptance does not mean white washing reality. One of the hallmarks of a true community is that it looks out for the welfare of its members -- something that's impossible for the size acceptance community to do if they continue to ignore reality.


----------



## MisticalMisty

LillyBBBW said:


> It's true. A good friend of mine is younger than I am, tall, leggy blonde who eats healthy and exercises in the gym all the time. She's got hypertension and type II diabetes. It's hereditary. I don't have any of that, I'm older than she is and nearly triple the size. It's hereditary in my family too yet hers is an unfortunate circumstance but I'm a drain on the healthcare system if I 'fail' to prevent these things from happening.



A girl I went to HS with was just diagnosed with coronary artery disease. She's 30, and a size 6.

It's like playing Russian Roulette. You may get sick, you may not. Your size doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it.


----------



## bigmac

Tracyarts said:


> There are plenty of fat people, myself included, who have lost some weight and kept it off. I'm not talking about people going from supersized to thin, but simply becoming less fat. In my case the initial loss several years ago was only 20% of my body weight. It wasn't a drastic amount, but it was enough to stop the deterioration of my health and to reclaim some of my mobility.
> 
> Tracy



I agree with you and thought your post about how water therapy helped you improve your mobility was great -- an example of how members of this community can share helpful information.

You're right that fat people can loose some weight (and feel much better) when they change their habits and activities (not dieting just eating better and moving more). Success stories like yours are just what the younger folks need to hear.


----------



## Tracyarts

" I agree with you and thought your post about how water therapy helped you improve your mobility was great -- an example of how members of this community can share helpful information. "

Water therapy did not improve my mobility. Weight loss that was facilitated by working out *in the water* improved my mobility. The pool was simply the tool that allowed me to engage in a very intense fitness program without the limitations of pain and fatigue I had on dry land. 

When I was just doing physical therapy in warm water without the aerobic or strength building exercise, my weight remained stable and my overall mobility level did not improve. I did see improvements as far as my range of motion. Being able to reach, bend, and twist farther without spasms of pain. But it did not give me any more "on foot" time to stand longer and walk farther. It was not until after I started to lose weight that I started to see an increase in my "on foot" time. 

Tracy


----------



## KHayes666

MisticalMisty said:


> A girl I went to HS with was just diagnosed with coronary artery disease. She's 30, and a size 6.
> 
> It's like playing Russian Roulette. You may get sick, you may not. Your size doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it.



I also remember reading in the paper about a 29 year old olympic sprinter who died of a brain tumor.

Death strikes whomever it wants regardless of race, size or background.


----------



## bigmac

MisticalMisty said:


> A girl I went to HS with was just diagnosed with coronary artery disease. She's 30, and a size 6.
> 
> It's like playing Russian Roulette. You may get sick, you may not. Your size doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it.






KHayes666 said:


> I also remember reading in the paper about a 29 year old olympic sprinter who died of a brain tumor.
> 
> Death strikes whomever it wants regardless of race, size or background.




The fact that we all -- fat or thin -- can get sick is totally irrelevant. The issue hear is people ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Gaining lots of weight when you're already large is not going to end well -- and, therefore, young supersize people should not be encouraged to gain more weight. Its one thing to accept people at the size they are -- its another much darker thing to encourage people to get fatter.


----------



## Shosh

bigmac said:


> The fact that we all -- fat or thin -- can get sick is totally irrelevant. The issue hear is people ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Gaining lots of weight when you're already large is not going to end well -- and, therefore, young supersize people should not be encouraged to gain more weight. Its one thing to accept people at the size they are -- its another much darker thing to encourage people to get fatter.



Dude you are just going to bash your head up against the wall with that argument. Some people just do not want to deal in reality.

Yes all kinds of people get all kinds of illnesses, but you are much more LIKELY to have grave health complications from being supersized.

That is not a value judgement, it is just reality.

I also do not think Felecia should be made to feel badly, about posting her feelings here. It is a discussion board.


----------



## Angel

Shosh said:


> Yes all kinds of people get all kinds of illnesses, but you are much more LIKELY to have grave health complications from being supersized.



... especially when college educated board certified physicians _assume_ that every illness is caused by or is a direct result of being super morbidly obese. Physicians believe it, so lay people should, too. 


Try being supersized and going to the ER for anything and see what happens.


_Assumptions_ can lead to grave health complications as often as, or possibly even more often than being supersized. Very often the supersized are NOT treated for what is _really_ wrong. Very often they are misdiagnosed or their complaints ignored and _everything_ is blamed on their size or weight when in fact there is something totally unrelated to their size that is wrong or complicating or compromising their health and wellness.


----------



## MisticalMisty

Shosh said:


> Dude you are just going to bash your head up against the wall with that argument. Some people just do not want to deal in reality.
> 
> Yes all kinds of people get all kinds of illnesses, but you are much more LIKELY to have grave health complications from being supersized.
> 
> That is not a value judgement, it is just reality.
> 
> I also do not think Felecia should be made to feel badly, about posting her feelings here. It is a discussion board.



Two questions then....

#1..Why are you actively gaining if you will catch the death from fat?

#2. What do you say to the large group of super sized ladies on this board with minimal to no health problems?

Here's the thing...you can't just catch all these "fat" diseases. Genetics and family history play a huge role. If it didn't, every person over 250-300 lbs would be diabetic, have heart disease, etc and that's just not the case.

Death happens..it's a sad fact of life. I graduated in a small class of 80 or so. By the time we were thirty, we had lost 6 people. 

I know that I will die someday..but I doubt it will be because of my weight. In fact, I think it will be during the middle of hot, old people sex with my husband.


----------



## joswitch

joswitch said:


> So, how about adults who are sane, self-motivated feedees?
> Who choose to gain anyway...
> What would you say is the correct moral position for an FA (or feeder, or neither) partner, or prospective partner?
> 
> If the feedee desires the outcome, is it still "abuse" (your word) to "enable" his/her weight gain? Or only if the feedee exceeds a certain weight? (what weight exactly?)
> 
> If the partner is not a feeder, or maybe not even an FA, is it still "abuse" if they "enable" their supersized feedee partner to fulfil their weight gain wishes?
> Or is it only "abuse" if the feeder partner enjoys it???
> 
> If the measure of "abuse" is providing some/any food to a partner over a certain size, i.e. "enabling" them by helping to provide a safe, loving home where the feedee partner feels happy to eat and grow as they wish - then does that mean that anyone who dates a self-motivated already supersize feedee and does not actively try to prevent them gaining are somehow automatically abusers???
> 
> Do FAs / feeders "enable" fat people's gaining just by our existence?? Cos maybe, possibly, perhaps we represent a hope of lovesexy happiness without having to lose weight, to some fat people? (some who might otherwise be happy with the other aspects of being fat, except they have been taught they are somehow unworthy of love by society at large...)
> 
> Is indeed the entire potical SA movement somehow morally implicated in teh dangerfatnezz by our failure to join the fat-hate/shame and diet lobby? And our promotion of self-acceptance and health-at-any-size??? (certainly that's what Meme Roth and her ilk would have us believe)
> 
> I remember when I was 16 and my at-the-time healthy gran asked me to go buy her cigarettes, and I refused cos I didn't want to help her smoke herself to death (which she eventually did.... 6 years later... at age 72...) would it have been "enabling" or "abuse" if I had gone and bought those cigarettes for her?
> 
> *These are serious questions about personal responsibility / autonomy here...
> Where and what lines should be drawn?
> And who should be doing the drawing?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And so if you happen to be a feeder, and you meet a gainer who says they are happy and love gaining, or even a foodee who says they are comfortable with / indifferent to their gaining... Then what - you should subject them to a battery of tests before dating them?? Y'know.... in case they are ill or mad?? Otherwise you're an "abuser"??? :doh:



^These were not rhetorical questions, by the way...


----------



## Shosh

Angel said:


> ... especially when college educated board certified physicians _assume_ that every illness is caused by or is a direct result of being super morbidly obese. Physicians believe it, so lay people should, too.
> 
> 
> Try being supersized and going to the ER for anything and see what happens.
> 
> 
> _Assumptions_ can lead to grave health complications as often as, or possibly even more often than being supersized. Very often the supersized are NOT treated for what is _really_ wrong. Very often they are misdiagnosed or their complaints ignored and _everything_ is blamed on their size or weight when in fact there is something totally unrelated to their size that is wrong or complicating or compromising their health and wellness.



You make some good points Angel. It is certainly frustrating having every medical concern linked to your obesity.
I am 300 pounds, and I have experienced that myself.

However we are talking about health concerns as they relate to being supersized, health concerns that arise from being supersized.
It is likely that if you are supersized you will have multiple health issues that result directly from being supersized.


----------



## joswitch

Tracyarts said:


> " I agree with you and thought your post about how water therapy helped you improve your mobility was great -- an example of how members of this community can share helpful information. "
> 
> Water therapy did not improve my mobility. Weight loss that was facilitated by working out *in the water* improved my mobility. The pool was simply the tool that allowed me to engage in a very intense fitness program without the limitations of pain and fatigue I had on dry land.
> 
> When I was just doing physical therapy in warm water without the *aerobic or strength building exercise,* my weight remained stable and my overall mobility level did not improve. I did see improvements as far as my range of motion. Being able to reach, bend, and twist farther without spasms of pain. But it did not give me any more "on foot" time to stand longer and walk farther. It was not until after I started to lose weight that I started to see an increase in my "on foot" time.
> 
> Tracy


weight loss alone is not the sole factor -

aerobic > improved C/V capacity & endurance
and strength building exercise > bigger, better toned muscles = significant influences on ability/fitness / "foot time".... Both also tend to help systemic health.... Both may be independent of weight loss/gain, for other people...


----------



## collared Princess

Any chance that one of our super smart Dim members can do a ratio on how many members we have verse's the losses we have had..like say there are 5,000 members and 5 deaths is that a good ratio?..not that people who pass away here are just a number just trying to put this in prospective


----------



## Angel

Shosh said:


> You make some good points Angel. It is certainly frustrating having every medical concern linked to your obesity.
> I am 300 pounds, and I have experienced that myself.
> 
> However we are talking about health concerns as they relate to being supersized, health concerns that arise from being supersized.
> It is likely that if you are supersized you will have multiple health issues that result directly from being supersized.




Do you not (not just you, everyone saying that the health issues are a DIRECT result of being supersized) understand that health issues that may finally show themselves in a supersized body BEGAN or had their start way before the person became supersized? Any disease that you could name or associate as being caused by being supersized just doesn't appear all at once, all in one day. A nonsymptomatic BBW could be developing diabetes, or asthma, or arthritis, or etc (whatever illness you are associating with being a result of being supersized) for years and it not become diagnosed or full blown until after she is in the supersize range. Being supersized isn't what caused the illness. BEING SUPERSIZED IS NOT WHAT CAUSED THE ILLNESS. An illness or a disease doesn't just suprisingly attack someone just because they are supersized and only because they are supersized and for no other reason at all. Diabetes doesn't happen over night. Arthritis doesn't happen over night. High blood pressure doesn't happen overnight. Breast cancer doesn't happen over night. Becoming supersized doesn't happen overnight. You who are BBW are just as much at risk as SSBBW. Those who are smaller can even be at risk. The amount of fatness on a body isn't what casues the illnesses or diseases. Yes it may complicate dealing with the issues once they are properly diagnosed, but fatness or the degree of fatness isn't the one and only cause. 



just adding that I do realize that excess weight does add to the wear and tear on joints.


----------



## collared Princess

Angel said:


> ... especially when college educated board certified physicians _assume_ that every illness is caused by or is a direct result of being super morbidly obese. Physicians believe it, so lay people should, too.
> 
> 
> Try being supersized and going to the ER for anything and see what happens.
> 
> 
> _Assumptions_ can lead to grave health complications as often as, or possibly even more often than being supersized. Very often the supersized are NOT treated for what is _really_ wrong. Very often they are misdiagnosed or their complaints ignored and _everything_ is blamed on their size or weight when in fact there is something totally unrelated to their size that is wrong or complicating or compromising their health and wellness.




yeah like how the professional medical establishment saids if you are fat and pregnant you can squash your baby to death inside the womb.


----------



## Shosh

Angel said:


> Do you not (not just you, everyone saying that the health issues are a DIRECT result of being supersized) understand that health issues that may finally show themselves in a supersized body BEGAN or had their start way before the person became supersized? Any disease that you could name or associate as being caused by being supersized just doesn't appear all at once, all in one day. A nonsymptomatic BBW could be developing diabetes, or asthma, or arthritis, or etc (whatever illness you are associating with being a result of being supersized) for years and it not become diagnosed or full blown until after she is in the supersize range. Being supersized isn't what caused the illness. BEING SUPERSIZED IS NOT WHAT CAUSED THE ILLNESS. An illness or a disease doesn't just suprisingly attack someone just because they are supersized and only because they are supersized and for no other reason at all. Diabetes doesn't happen over night. Arthritis doesn't happen over night. High blood pressure doesn't happen overnight. Breast cancer doesn't happen over night. Becoming supersized doesn't happen overnight. You who are BBW are just as much at risk as SSBBW. Those who are smaller can even be at risk. The amount of fatness on a body isn't what casues the illnesses or diseases. Yes it may complicate dealing with the issues once they are properly diagnosed, but fatness or the degree of fatness isn't the one and only cause.



I am thinking more of heart disease and ultimately heart failure, certain types of cancer, and stroke, sleep apnea, liver disease, etc.
I understand it is a very sensitive topic. It is really hard.


----------



## LillyBBBW

bigmac said:


> The fact that we all -- fat or thin -- can get sick is totally irrelevant. The issue hear is people ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Gaining lots of weight when you're already large is not going to end well -- and, therefore, young supersize people should not be encouraged to gain more weight. Its one thing to accept people at the size they are -- its another much darker thing to encourage people to get fatter.



Is it really another thing bigmac? There are two gorillas in the room.


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## KHayes666

bigmac said:


> The fact that we all -- fat or thin -- can get sick is totally irrelevant. The issue hear is people ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Gaining lots of weight when you're already large is not going to end well -- and, therefore, young supersize people should not be encouraged to gain more weight. Its one thing to accept people at the size they are -- its another much darker thing to encourage people to get fatter.



I encourage people to get fatter when its what THEY want, I also encourage them to do it if they say it will make them happy.

Where's the harm in that really? They already know the health risks involved and either they'll be mindful or they don't care....its THEIR choice how they live their lives.


----------



## LoveBHMS

> weight loss alone is not the sole factor -
> 
> aerobic > improved C/V capacity & endurance
> and strength building exercise > bigger, better toned muscles = significant influences on ability/fitness / "foot time".... Both also tend to help systemic health.... Both may be independent of weight loss/gain, for other people...



I say no matter what, we put our collective foot down and *insist* that weight loss is never a good thing. Ever. I like how you added the "for other people" at the end of the sentence just so you could head off Tracey potentially pointing out that the reality of her situation was that weight loss helped her health. If your problems are caused by your body's inability to handle a certain amount of weight, and you lose the weight, then yes, the weight loss contributed to regaining health. Freaking DEAL WITH IT.


----------



## musicman

bigmac said:


> WTF -- were did this come from. I said we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand regarding the realities of being super-supersize. The OP said pretty much the same thing. How is it judgmental for people in their forties, who have seen what extreme weight gain has done to our friends and family, to worry about what the future holds for the next generation of the super-supersize.
> 
> I'm not trying to harass, or shame anyone -- and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone go on a diet. However, size acceptance does not mean white washing reality. One of the hallmarks of a true community is that it looks out for the welfare of its members -- something that's impossible for the size acceptance community to do if they continue to ignore reality.



I didn't say that you were harrassing anyone. I said that your judgmentalism provides a great justification for it, for anyone who hates fat people. Unlike you, a lot of people are not happy with merely giving advice. They think they know best, and will not stop until they can FORCE people to weigh whatever THEY think people should weigh. I know you're not one of those people, but that's why I object to what you've said, regardless of your good intentions. Neither you nor I know the "healthy weight" for any individual (if that even exists), and we shouldn't be telling people how to live their lives. 

This isn't denial. It's called "size acceptance" and it means never judging people by their weight, especially people whose lives we don't fully understand (i.e. anyone other than ourselves).

But there's a broader issue, which is a problem with many posters on here. Too many people are judging others, whom they don't even know, and then when they are called out for it, they hide behind the "concerned citizen" defense. This combination of "holier than thou" judgmentalism with supposed concern has become very popular. Everyone from ThinGuy to SuperO is doing it, and it is cheapening the discussions on many recent threads. It's a favorite tactic of the fat-hating media, so it's doubly disgusting to see it used here. 

Here's a quiz for anyone who doesn't understand what I'm saying: If a complete stranger walks up to you in a restaurant and tells you that you shouldn't be eating that piece of pie because you're already too fat, what do you say to them? (choose one)

(A) "Oh, thank you, concerned citizen."

or

(B) "What I eat is none of your business. Get lost, you pathetic busybody!"

Most of the world thinks the answer should be (A). Some people here apparently agree with that, expecially if they get to play the role of the concerned citizen.


----------



## Angel

KHayes666 said:


> I encourage people to get fatter when its what THEY want, I also encourage them to do it if they say it will make them happy.
> 
> Where's the harm in that really? They already know the health risks involved and either they'll be mindful or they don't care....its THEIR choice how they live their lives.



There's no harm in you (or anyone else online) encouraging someone else to gain weight, because you (or anyone else online) won't have to deal with any health issues that may arise twenty or thirty years on down the road. No guilt to deal with either 20 or 30 years on down the road when it is the gainer or the feedee who may be the one with health issues and not you. You'll be living your life ane will have long forgotten about the women you encouraged online. 


Do you seriously believe that every newbie looking for attention that posts on the weight board understands all the risks when many people who are already fat don't understand all the risks that being fat may bring?


It is so easy to disconnect when something brings arousal.


----------



## LoveBHMS

Angel said:


> There's no harm in you (or anyone else online) encouraging someone else to gain weight, because you (or anyone else online) won't have to deal with any health issues that may arise twenty or thirty years on down the road. No guilt to deal with either 20 or 30 years on down the road when it is the gainer or the feedee who may be the one with health issues and not you. You'll be living your life ane will have long forgotten about the women you encouraged online.
> 
> 
> Do you seriously believe that every newbie looking for attention that posts on the weight board understands all the risks when many people who are already fat don't understand all the risks that being fat may bring?
> 
> 
> It is so easy to disconnect when something brings arousal.



So wait.....obesity brings on problems when it was caused by feederism? Because you JUST SAID that being fat was not what caused health problems. I mean you said it like 4 posts ago. And now you're harshing on a feeder because feeding is going to cause health problems?



> Do you seriously believe that every newbie looking for attention that posts on the weight board understands all the risks when many people who are already fat don't understand all the risks that being fat may bring?



Do you seriously believe they don't? Also, I dont' really believe anyone gains weight just for attention. Maybe some do but I'm guessing nobody became a newbie on the Dimensions Weight Board by accident. Nobody came here by mistake because they were online looking for movie reviews. Anyone who gets off on the encouragement was looking for it in the first place and probably masturbating to it way before they found Dims. If you gain weight solely because the somebody on the internet told you to, your health problems are mostly located above your neck.

Also, not everyones relationships exist online. Some do, but honestly, as a feeder I can tell you it would be ridiculously unsatisfying to not have the personal contact that makes the whole thing so enjoyable.


----------



## Angel

LoveBHMS said:


> Because you JUST SAID



The point I was trying to make above is that the fact that because someone is a SSBBW does not equal the reason they have a disease or illness; that the diseases and illnesses a supersized person may have could have began long before the person becomes supersized.


----------



## swedishiron

I believe some (if not most) of the women that are intentionally gaining large amounts of weight want to die early and know the consequences - just like rock stars that overdose on drugs. Their mind set may include the thinking why suffer through old age. "Party" hard now, enjoy yourself and mask other internal issues.

I remember distinctly chatting with one young gainer and asking me her about her future plans and she told me she basically was going to eat herself to death and planned to die and go to Hell.


----------



## Shosh

swedishiron said:


> I believe some (if not most) of the women that are intentionally gaining large amounts of weight want to die early and know the consequences - just like rock stars that overdose on drugs. Their mind set may include the thinking why suffer through old age. "Party" hard now, enjoy yourself and mask other internal issues.
> 
> I remember distinctly chatting with one young gainer and asking me her about her future plans and she told me she basically was going to eat herself to death and planned to die and go to Hell.



That is sexually arousing how? That is just plain depressing.


----------



## Angel

LoveBHMS said:


> Do you seriously believe they don't? Also, I dont' really believe anyone gains weight just for attention. Maybe some do but I'm guessing nobody became a newbie on the Dimensions Weight Board by accident. Nobody came here by mistake because they were online looking for movie reviews. Anyone who gets off on the encouragement was looking for it in the first place and probably masturbating to it way before they found Dims. If you gain weight solely because the somebody on the internet told you to, your health problems are mostly located above your neck.
> 
> Also, not everyones relationships exist online. Some do, but honestly, as a feeder I can tell you it would be ridiculously unsatisfying to not have the personal contact that makes the whole thing so enjoyable.



I bet most fat woman who discovered Dimensions had no idea of feederism until after they curiously read something on the weight board or chatted with a feeder who was hiding under the guise of a FA. 

Fat women (or fat men) who may have never had anyone appreciate their FAT body before may end up enjoying the attention and/or encouragement and might even get off on someone telling them that their body *is* acceptable and would be even *more* acceptable or *more sexy* if they gained. If they happen to take that encouragement and praise and (gasp) admiration and adoration and someone telling them that they love them and love their body and would love it even more if they gained as something positive, and then do end up gaining - intentionally or not, does that mean they have mental problems (or health problems above the neck, as you said)?

Please consider your audience. You don't know what it's like to live your life as a fat person who may have never experienced positive feedback about their fat body before. Not every feeder is honest about their 'orientation'. Most hide behind the guise of being a fat admirer. You younger ones may not be ashamed to openly admit that you are encouragers or feeders, but many young and older are, and it's not until after they get someone to fall for them that they begin to encourage. Women and men both want to please and would like to continue to be considered sexy. And it has nothing to do with their mental state.


----------



## joswitch

LoveBHMS said:


> I say no matter what, we put our collective foot down and *insist* that weight loss is never a good thing. Ever. I like how you added the "for other people" at the end of the sentence just so you could head off Tracey potentially pointing out that the reality of her situation was that weight loss helped her health. If your problems are caused by your body's inability to handle a certain amount of weight, and you lose the weight, then yes, the weight loss contributed to regaining health. Freaking DEAL WITH IT.



I see what you did there...
You took my nuanced post, which was about other significant factors besides weight - and turned it into a nice easy straw man for you to get REALLY MAD ABOUT!!

Seriously, do not quote me if you're going to ignore what I actually say, in favour of listening to the voices in your head.


----------



## Angel

Shosh said:


> That is sexually arousing how? That is just plain depressing.



I think he was trying to say how most people only think of the here and now; and the fun............. and not the possible consequences.


...like rock stars who overdose never set out to. They just wanted to get high.


----------



## swedishiron

A lot people have internal issues they should deal with -it doesnt mean they are mentally ill per se; Feedees are no different than people that intentionally over indulge in drugs, alcohol,speeding in traffic, or sex etc - they just picked a different path. Over indulgence in any of those could potentially lead to an early death.


----------



## Angel

joswitch said:


> Seriously, do not quote me if you're going to ignore what I actually say, in favour of listening to the voices in your head.



What if the voices in my head are the _only_ voices that are RIGHT?


----------



## joswitch

Angel said:


> There's no harm in you (or anyone else online) encouraging someone else to gain weight, because you (or anyone else online) won't have to deal with any health issues that may arise twenty or thirty years on down the road. No guilt to deal with either 20 or 30 years on down the road when it is the gainer or the feedee who may be the one with health issues and not you. You'll be living your life ane will have long forgotten about the women you encouraged online.
> 
> 
> Do you seriously believe that every newbie looking for attention that posts on the weight board understands all the risks when many people who are already fat don't understand all the risks that being fat may bring?
> 
> 
> It is so easy to disconnect when something brings arousal.



Not all feeders are sociopaths.
I believe that has been mentioned before, but...

What about feeder/feedee couples in actual RL LTRs? Who has responsibilty for the feedee's body/weight/health?

What about an FA/feedee couple?
Or a bisizual/feedee couple?
Where the feedee is the driving force in their own gaining- and the partner doesn't have their genitals in the race...
Would their partner be guilty of being an enabler?
(see also Ernst Nagel's posts way back up thread about why he split with his SSBBW partner)
And what level of action or inaction constitutes enabling? Should partners of fat people only ever offer them salad??

From the last part of your post it seems you believe that no feedee could ever give truly informed consent? because you believe they cannot truly know the consequences of their actions until they have experienced them? = Catch 22....


----------



## joswitch

Angel said:


> I bet most fat woman who discovered Dimensions had no idea of feederism until after they curiously read something on the weight board or chatted with a feeder who was hiding under the guise of a FA.
> 
> Fat women (or fat men) who may have never had anyone appreciate their FAT body before may end up enjoying the attention and/or encouragement and might even get off on someone telling them that their body *is* acceptable and would be even *more* acceptable or *more sexy* if they gained. If they happen to take that encouragement and praise and (gasp) admiration and adoration and someone telling them that they love them and love their body and would love it even more if they gained as something positive, and then do end up gaining - intentionally or not, does that mean they have mental problems (or health problems above the neck, as you said)?
> 
> Please consider your audience. You don't know what it's like to live your life as a fat person who may have never experienced positive feedback about their fat body before. Not every feeder is honest about their 'orientation'. Most hide behind the guise of being a fat admirer. You younger ones may not be ashamed to openly admit that you are encouragers or feeders, but many young and older are, and it's not until after they get someone to fall for them that they begin to encourage. Women and men both want to please and would like to continue to be considered sexy. And it has nothing to do with their mental state.



So you're positing fat people as particularly emotionally vulnerable, to the point where they are unable to give true consent?


----------



## Jes

bigmac said:


> The fact that we all -- fat or thin -- can get sick is totally irrelevant. The issue hear is people ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Gaining lots of weight when you're already large is not going to end well -- and, therefore, young supersize people should not be encouraged to gain more weight. Its one thing to accept people at the size they are -- its another much darker thing to encourage people to get fatter.



Yes. Everyone dies. But personally, I think that there are things we can do to lessen the chances that we'll get something. Is it foolproof? Of course not. But what is?

I don't get in a car without my seatbelt. I don't eat raw meat. I don't walk into the street without looking both ways. I don't do hardcore drugs. Why? Because I know that there are precautions that we can take to promote our safety and our longevity. 

If people didn't generally believe that, if people figured 'oh, I'm gonna go someday, and there's nothing I can do to protect myself or look out for myself' then they wouldn't do any of those things. They'd figure today is the day or not the day, and nothing I can do will change it. But I don't believe that and I think, based on the behavior of the average person (who _does_ look both ways before walking into the street or _doesn't_ lick the floor of the train station bathroom--eww!), most others don't believe it either.


----------



## Jes

Angel said:


> just adding that I do realize that excess weight does add to the wear and tear on joints.



I think weight also hinders healing of some parts and conditions. So perhaps a bad back from a car accident or a fall on some ice, thing which could happen to anyone and which usually do over the course of any given life, could be recovered from if someone wasn't carrying 500 lbs. I do believe we had a member who was suffering from a type of cancer but who could not be operated on because of a weight of ...700 lbs? I honestly don't recall, but I know she was very supersized. So, the condition or the illness is not weight-related, but the ability to heal from it can be.


----------



## LoveBHMS

> Fat women (or fat men) who may have never had anyone appreciate their FAT body before may end up enjoying the attention and/or encouragement and might even get off on someone telling them that their body *is* acceptable and would be even *more* acceptable or *more sexy* if they gained. If they happen to take that encouragement and praise and (gasp) admiration and adoration and someone telling them that they love them and love their body and would love it even more if they gained as something positive, and then do end up gaining - intentionally or not, does that mean they have mental problems (or health problems above the neck, as you said)?



No, what I said was if somebody gains weight solely because somebody on the internet tells them to do it, they have mental problems. If it's a real life partner or if they were turned on by gaining beforehand, that is different.

Pretty much everyone of any gender or size wants to feel good about themselves and is to some degree probably vulnerable to encouragement or to bathing in the glow of approval or admiration.


----------



## LoveBHMS

joswitch said:


> I see what you did there...
> You took my nuanced post, which was about other significant factors besides weight - and turned it into a nice easy straw man for you to get REALLY MAD ABOUT!!
> 
> Seriously, do not quote me if you're going to ignore what I actually say, in favour of listening to the voices in your head.



I see what you did there. Took my post and made it into my having voices in my head. Tracey said her health improved after weight loss and you contradicted her. Sorry you can't see that that is rude when somebody is speaking about herself and possible others in her condition. 

The problem is you are coming across as if there is simply no way weight loss alone helped her when it's entirely possible that it did.


----------



## joswitch

Jes said:


> Yes. Everyone dies. But personally, I think that there are things we can do to lessen the chances that we'll get something. Is it foolproof? Of course not. But what is?
> 
> I don't get in a car without my seatbelt. I don't eat raw meat. I don't walk into the street without looking both ways. I don't do hardcore drugs. Why? Because I know that there are precautions that we can take to promote our safety and our longevity.
> 
> If people didn't generally believe that, if people figured 'oh, I'm gonna go someday, and there's nothing I can do to protect myself or look out for myself' then they wouldn't do any of those things. They'd figure today is the day or not the day, and nothing I can do will change it. But I don't believe that and I think, based on the behavior of the average person (who _does_ look both ways before walking into the street or _doesn't_ lick the floor of the train station bathroom--eww!), most others don't believe it either.



Side point:
"average" changes from one locality to another...
E.g. In Mexico it was considered absolutely normal to drink and drive... And when it got made illegal about ten years back there was outrage! Even tho road deaths were reduced by half!

In mainland Euope it is still "average" to smoke cigarettes.

Main point:
putting on a seatbelt, looking both ways are not big life changes, nor are they onerous tasks....
To feedees/gainers who only feel truly turned on / fulfilled when eating a lot / gaining, the changes required to "minimise risk" might seem too high a price to pay....

By analogy: There are a great many safety-first / nanny state aspects to my country (the UK) to the point that a great deal of privacy, dignity, personal autonomy, spontaneity and joy is sucked out of life here... If there was a path to live more freely and it involved a caculated risk of my life? I'd take it... in fact where I thought opportunity for such was present (I was wrong, mostly, so far) I have taken those risks...


----------



## joswitch

LoveBHMS said:


> I see what you did there. Took my post and made it into my having voices in my head. Tracey said her health improved after weight loss and you contradicted her.


No, she said it was solely to do with weight loss.
I pointed out the contradiction contained in her own post, where Tracy herself identified aerobic an strength training as necessary prerequisites for improved mobility. That's 3 factors, not one. 


> Sorry you can't see that that is rude when somebody is speaking about herself and possible others in her condition.
> 
> The problem is you are coming across as if there is simply no way weight loss alone helped her when it's entirely possible that it did.



It might be possible, but it's unlikely, because sustained weight loss rarely occurs without other changes.
Which, again, Tracy identified in her own post and then went on to ignore.


----------



## Tracyarts

" weight loss alone is not the sole factor -

aerobic > improved C/V capacity & endurance
and strength building exercise > bigger, better toned muscles = significant influences on ability/fitness / "foot time".... Both also tend to help systemic health.... Both may be independent of weight loss/gain, for other people... "

For other people, quite possibly. But not for me. 

I know for a fact that weight loss alone was the sole factor in the decrease of my back pain and the increase in my mobility level. I have not had access to a pool to exercise in for a few years now, and I am not able to do a fraction of the amount of exercise I could do in a pool on dry land. So, that is no longer part of the equation. 

After the initial weight loss and mobility increase, I was able to maintain both simply with my new activity level. I regained some weight and my mobility level decreased again. I lost what I gained through dietary changes alone and my mobility level increased again. And the closer I get to the weight range that my body functions best at, the less pain I feel and the more I am able to do in the way of normal everyday physical activity before I become fatigued.

For me, my body functions best within the 200-300 pound range. That's where I was able to thrive. I felt better at 200 pounds than I did at 160 pounds. I felt better at 300 pounds than I did at 340 pounds. That's just the genetic hand I was dealt in this life and the physical reality I have to work within. 

Tracy


----------



## Jes

joswitch said:


> ! Even tho road deaths were reduced by half!
> ...



Understood.

All I know is that I want to be in the half that lives.

My sexual satisfication has never been predicated on something that risks my very health. Personally, I am happy about that. But, I acknowledge that some people's sexual satisfaction _is_ predicated on that sort of behavior and I don't want to ignore their existence just because I'm different. 

I've appreciated reading everyone whose comments may be unpopular here but are, at least, her/his truth.


----------



## Jes

Tracyarts said:


> " For me, my body functions best within the 200-300 pound range. That's where I was able to thrive. I felt better at 200 pounds than I did at 160 pounds. I felt better at 300 pounds than I did at 340 pounds. That's just the genetic hand I was dealt in this life and the physical reality I have to work within.
> 
> Tracy



Tracy, if I may ask: do you think that, for you, this weight range (the weight at which you feel best, not necessarily the weight you are) will change as you age, in either direction? Or do you think it's set?


----------



## joswitch

Jes said:


> Understood.
> 
> All I know is that I want to be in the half that lives.
> 
> My sexual satisfication has never been predicated on something that risks my very health. Personally, I am happy about that. But, I acknowledge that some people's sexual satisfaction _is_ predicated on that sort of behavior and I don't want to ignore their existence just because I'm different.
> 
> I've appreciated reading everyone whose comments may be unpopular here but are, at least, her/his truth.



That you are happy to pick your path and for others to pick theirs = great...


----------



## Angel

Too many questions to break up your post. My answers/opinion in dark green text.




joswitch said:


> Not all feeders are sociopaths. True. Didn't mean to insinuate that at all.
> 
> I believe that has been mentioned before, but...
> 
> What about feeder/feedee couples in actual RL LTRs? Who has responsibilty for the feedee's body/weight/health? In a RL LTR and consentual feederism relationship I think that both should be.
> 
> What about an FA/feedee couple? If the FA is encouraging and/or aiding in the gaining/fattening, I believe the FA should share in the responsibility.
> 
> Or a bisizual/feedee couple? Same as above. If both parties are playing an active/intentional part, then both should share the responsibility.
> 
> Where the feedee is the driving force in their own gaining- and the partner doesn't have their genitals in the race... If the partner isn't involved, isn't encouraging, isn't actively participating, or it's something that's not erotic or arousing to the partner, or something that the partner doesn't want - then it's all on the feedee. Concerns should be expressed and made known long before.
> 
> Would their partner be guilty of being an enabler? I don't think so.
> (see also Ernst Nagel's posts way back up thread about why he split with his SSBBW partner) He expressed his concerns. She made the choice of what she was eating; of whether or not she was active, etc. He was providing for her, but she choose what she ate. She was therefore responsible.
> 
> 
> And what level of action or inaction constitutes enabling? To me, enabling involves a willful allowal of something that is clearly detrimental. Once something is clearly detrimental to someone's health or well being I would hope that someone who is emotionally invested would express their care and concern about what is happening or taking place. That doesn't mean that they should have to stop providing basic necessities or what would be considered as healthy.
> 
> 
> Should partners of fat people only ever offer them salad?? LOL  If they did only that, lots of partners of fat people would end up frustrated sexually and eventually end up alone.
> 
> From the last part of your post it seems you believe that no feedee could ever give truly informed consent? I didn't mean that.because you believe they cannot truly know the consequences of their actions until they have experienced them? There aren't always negative consequences especially when there is personal moderation. Like SwedishIron expressed, though, serious or detrimental consequences can happen even when that may never have been the intention.= Catch 22....





joswitch said:


> So you're positing fat people as particularly emotionally vulnerable, to the point where they are unable to give true consent?  No. Some may be, though. I view "true consent" as something that someone is well aware of and something intentional. Something desired and wanted. There is a fine line sometimes because emotions can be involved, and sometimes only on one side. One person can be thinking with their heart and the other with their gonads.


----------



## Angel

Jes said:


> Tracy, if I may ask: do you think that, for you, this weight range (the weight at which you feel best, not necessarily the weight you are) will change as you age, in either direction? Or do you think it's set?



I was wondering the same. When I was in my late 20s and in my 30s my body could handle being over 500. Now that I'm an old lady... LOL ... all the old age aches and pains aren't so fun.


----------



## superodalisque

joswitch said:


> So you're positing fat people as particularly emotionally vulnerable, to the point where they are unable to give true consent?



sometimes they are. remember you're talking about people who have sometimes been told that they are unattractive by what seems like the entirety of society. even family who are suppose to love them can be abusive. then suddenly someone tells them they are beautiful for maybe the 1st time in their lives they feel accepted. it can distort things at least for a while. some of the younger ones haven't even had the time to meet anyone IRL who would even date them yet. a lot of young men don't have that confidence yet in high school to date fat women openly. so these young women in particular are often under the impression that no one is attracted to them--which is definitely NOT true. i won't limit that perception to young women because many older women are under that misconception too. if they only knew how much they WERE being noticed and appreciated IRL. thats why we have to be careful. i really understand the need to be positive. but we can be positive but still be realistic and caring at the same time. that way everyone protects each other.

all of this can be a nasty emotional trap for FAs. its probably not purposeful at all but it can end up making an FA into the ultimate bad guy in someone's head. when you couple someone who is completely unrealistic about their weight and the power they have to make decisions about it and control it at least to an extent as it regards their own choices and what that could mean to them overtime, they don't often take care or make any emotional or practical preparations. then when and if something bad does happen FAs often get blamed. you don't have to be a feeder to get blamed either. a lot of feeders have said right here they are perfectly happy with the fantasy. but if a guy is a feeder and a woman gains when she is with him sometimes she, her friends and her family use him as an easy scapegoat. they may label him as an enabler even if he might not be. as we see here there are guys all over the map when it comes to their ideas about being a supportive partner. i would say most of them wouldn't like to see their partner actually immobile or unhealthy. and even if they had it as a fantasy i have the feeling the new would rub off of that very quickly when it became a reality as they saw their partner have to struggle daily. the truth is even if a guy presses a woman still should look out for herself. but it can be too easy if someone is in a co-dependent relationship to play the blame game instead of looking at themselves. 

sometimes people unconsciously chose a partner for a reason. maybe its possible that some people have an out of control eating disorder and the need of a cover. if i were an FA and i met a woman who couldn't admit the truth about her health and the reality of her position enough to be proactive i would run like hell. what you want is someone who isn't afraid to face any possibility and doesn't live in a state of avoidance. then a lot of issues can be skirted in the first place. and if a woman is being proactive and taking care of herself you can be sure she is a responsible person who isn't going to blame all of her choices on you. she's not going to hide her reality from you and then blame you if you get overwhelmed by something that came at you from left field. if she is avoiding reality and making all kinds of excuses now, she can easily avoid it later by making you her whipping boy. i've seen FAs, especially feeders, get blamed many times by exes when someone's health gets out of control. but what they often failed to mention is that they were often fat and gaining when they met the person and probably would have gone down that road with someone else anyway, because at the time that was what they were looking for emotionally. they weren't interested in having a relationship with someone who'd love them fat and encourage them to be careful.


----------



## HappyFA75

superodalisque said:


> i'm saying i've seen way too many friends die suffer and face hard health issues and it hurts .i don't know all 400+ lb women and i haven't looked at stats. just too many for me that i know personally. i'm not trying to make any generalizations. just talking about loss for this particular reason. have you ever lost people close to you like that?



I know a 400+ lbs woman who is 32 thats having health concerns due to weight right now. Its just WRONG! Im not much older than she.


----------



## HappyFA75

swedishiron said:


> I remember distinctly chatting with one young gainer and asking me her about her future plans and she told me she basically was going to eat herself to death and planned to die and go to Hell.



Thats horrible. Sounds like she was 18 and not comprehending what she was saying. If she was serious, and fully comprehending, then there is nothing that can be done with/for that person, based on their intent they stated to you and you should not ignore the power of the Will! (The will to do what one wants.)

I agree with superodalisque here. This is proof even Liberals and Conservatives can agree on some things outside of politics.


----------



## Tracyarts

" Tracy, if I may ask: do you think that, for you, this weight range (the weight at which you feel best, not necessarily the weight you are) will change as you age, in either direction? Or do you think it's set? "

I'm not sure. But based on the past 25 years, I can't see it changing too radically. I know I feel better at 40 than I did at 30. So, I'll just have to wait and see.

Tracy


----------



## BeaBea

LoveBHMS said:


> I dont' really believe anyone gains weight just for attention.



Best laugh I've had all day!
Tracey


----------



## Smushygirl

MisticalMisty said:


> What do you say to the large group of super sized ladies on this board with minimal to no health problems?



I would say that those same super sized ladies have a private forum where they can discuss their health problems without prying eyes. Yes, that is what I would say.


----------



## imfree

swedishiron said:


> A lot people have internal issues they should deal with -it doesnt mean they are mentally ill per se; Feedees are no different than people that intentionally over indulge in drugs, alcohol,speeding in traffic, or sex etc - they just picked a different path. Over indulgence in any of those could potentially lead to an early death.



One more drink, fool...
...will drown you! Great post because it's not what
you're eating that's killing you, it's what's eating
you that's killing you. Unforgiveness, guilt, self-
hate and unresolved anger issues can encourage 
person to self-medicate with dangerous addictions, 
even in the absence of mental illness.


----------



## superodalisque

Smushygirl said:


> I would say that those same super sized ladies have a private forum where they can discuss their health problems without prying eyes. Yes, that is what I would say.



i was removed from that forum because people thought i was going to tell tales out of school. i've never mentioned anything i've read there ever. and actually i hadn't even read in there in months. whatever my opinions are came from seeing people 1st hand and what they told me or from what other friends have told me. and i have never put that on any forum. i really don't get most of my opinions from forums here. people mention health problems all over the boards. so i don't really think it was about a fear of privacy. i think it was more that i spoke out about a reality and people did not like it because its not only web models spreading health fantasies around the forums. no wonder some FAs are so unprepared and bail when trouble shows its face. they are being mislead about whats really happening. its not just people being paid who are putting on the porn face.


----------



## ashmamma84

superodalisque said:


> i was removed from that forum because people thought i was going to tell tales out of school. i've never mentioned anything i've read there ever. and actually i hadn't even read in there in months. whatever my opinions are came from seeing people 1st hand and what they told me or from what other friends have told me. and i have never put that on any forum. i really don't get most of my opinions from forums here. people mention health problems all over the boards. so i don't really think it was about a fear of privacy. i think it was more that i spoke out about a reality and people did not like it because its not only web models spreading health fantasies around the forums. no wonder some FAs are so unprepared and bail when trouble shows its face. they are being mislead about whats really happening. its not just people being paid who are putting on the porn face.



I thought you were supersized though? 

I know a while back there was concern that midsized ladies would be sitting around gawking at SS ladies health concerns or something to that effect; basically like they'd be cautionary tales or something.


----------



## LillyBBBW

superodalisque said:


> i was removed from that forum because people thought i was going to tell tales out of school. i've never mentioned anything i've read there ever. and actually i hadn't even read in there in months. whatever my opinions are came from seeing people 1st hand and what they told me or from what other friends have told me. and i have never put that on any forum. i really don't get most of my opinions from forums here. people mention health problems all over the boards. so i don't really think it was about a fear of privacy. i think it was more that i spoke out about a reality and people did not like it because its not only web models spreading health fantasies around the forums. no wonder some FAs are so unprepared and bail when trouble shows its face. they are being mislead about whats really happening. *its not just people being paid who are putting on the porn face.*



You're so right Supero, why not be more open about such things? Openness is educational afterall and these FAs deserve the best. In that spirit, why not go first? Lose the porn face and let the fellas know just what it's like for you being supersized.


----------



## Jes

superodalisque said:


> sometimes they are. remember you're talking about people who have sometimes been told that they are unattractive by what seems like the entirety of society. even family who are suppose to love them can be abusive. then suddenly someone tells them they are beautiful for maybe the 1st time in their lives they feel accepted. it can distort things at least for a while. some of the younger ones haven't even had the time to meet anyone IRL who would even date them yet. ul.



The last line above is really important to me. 

I know that when I came here and poked around, I had a distinct thought: To fit in with men (here or outside), I either need to lose 100 lbs. or gain 100 lbs. I see Dims as skewed toward the heavy end of the scale for both men and women. I know others have thought as I did, because I've discussed the exact same thought with many people over my years here.

That I would even consider gaining weight is ludicrous. Did I do it? No. Am I horrified that it even crossed my mind? YES. And good god, I'm an independent, mouthy son-of-a-bitch, and even I fell prey to some of that troubled thinking. I'm glad I wasn't 19, that's all I can say.

Anyway, Joswitch, don't we sometimes discuss FAs as people who are particularly emotionally vulnerable, to the point where they are unable to come out of the closet? It's the same wording, but just a different group of people. It exists.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

LillyBBBW said:


> Yes, it was the same for me. I was a gymnist and was doing everthing but shooting crossbows off the roofs of moving vehicles I was so active. I was litterally taken straight to the ER off of a week long camping hike in the mountains and the doctor told me I was out of shape and sent me away. I survived months of breathing around broken clots in my lungs. It's terrible that your wife had to pay this horrible price Dave but there is no blame to be laid here on either of you. This was just an unfortunate happenstance where there was nothing anyone could do. I'm so sorry.


 I know I'm only halfway through this thread, but GOD this makes me SO ANGRY Lilly.  That your lovely life was risked because of that insane doctor's prejudice. 

And Dave, I'm so sorry for your loss.  It infuriates me that they attribute her death to "obesity," too. I wonder how many other fat people's deaths have been mistakenly attributed to fatness. It's really sad.


----------



## DharmaDave

BigBeautifulMe said:


> I know I'm only halfway through this thread, but GOD this makes me SO ANGRY Lilly.  That your lovely life was risked because of that insane doctor's prejudice.
> 
> And Dave, I'm so sorry for your loss.  It infuriates me that they attribute her death to "obesity," too. I wonder how many other fat people's deaths have been mistakenly attributed to fatness. It's really sad.



Her death wasn't necessarily attributed to obesity. The attending physician made it a point to say to me that it wasn't "caused" by her being fat. I'm not sure why he did, to be honest with you. I didn't even think of it. Hiowever, the autopsy results indicated obesity as a preexisting health condition that contributed to her illness. They're really just grasping at the air, I think. It was a freak thing that could have happened to anyone, regardless of weight. I've been reading up on it and it seems like that she probably had a predisposition to clotting that was undiagnosed than then aggravated by hormone based birth control. But I can't help but worry that her being fat (actually not very fat, in dimensionsland) had some impact. As an "FA", the phrasing of the autopsy report can't help but wrack my conscience. Thanks for your support, BigBeautifulMe. Don't be infuriated. I'm not. Just incredibly devastated and looking for answers that aren't there. Death sucks.


----------



## TraciJo67

LillyBBBW said:


> I happen to be an 'ok' fattie. Most of my stuff is old-age related so my opinion at this point is mere conjecture. I will say though that if I had what one would deem super sized related health issues and someone created a thread that basically said, "Look! Look at HER. She's got one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. What do you think about her?" I don't think I would want you reading my stuff either. You don't think this is humiliating or villifying at all for people who are struggling? Even if they aren't supersized.... what the hell! I just personally feel that such behavior is impolite, and at an expense of what? Who is wiser? Who is better off. While you had free access to be in that group and see the struggles that go on there, Dan is out there in the woods somewhere taking a dump that looks like Moses. I didn't know you were removed Supero but I can see why after all this scuttlebutt. It was nasty.


 
I don't understand it at all. 

I get what you are saying, Lilly. Believe me, I do. I can't say that I understand from the same perspective that you or SuperO would, but I am a very prideful person too, and hanging my baggage out for the world to see is a concept that horrifies me. At least, that which makes me feel vulnerable. I'll talk all freakin' day about things that would be at least mildly off-putting to any sane person.

But look at what we're seeing in this thread. FA's cheerfully blathering on about the awesomesauceness that is weight gain and hey -- so what if she wants to gain. I'm not a bad guy for encouraging that -- she wants to! And she's healthy! And fat isn't unhealthy! And even if it is for some people, there's genetics and there's HAES and rah rah rah. 

Which is not to say that there isn't any truth at all in such a mindset, but it's not a complete truth. I've worked at least tangentially with doctors and long-term care social workers/nurses, and I've seen what can happen to someone who is super-sized, and the condition that led to death (or permanent disability) wasn't initially related to his/her weight. I know that we've all heard it before, and I'm not parroting it here. I'm just saying, the mindset I'm seeing here makes me feel very uncomfortable because it DOESN'T seem grounded in reality, it doesn't encompass the fact that extreme weight can make a person correspondingly extremely _vulnerable_ to opportunistic illnesses and conditions that wouldn't typically be life-threatening. 

Just once, I'd like to hear a non-fat person who loves to encourage weight gain say, "I know that my behaviors could be potentially harmful to this person that I care about. And no, it's not all about her and what she wants and even if she's 100% dedicated to gaining, with or without me, so long as I am in this relationship with her, I am also partially responsible for any consequences of our mutual actions. She's healthy and mobile right now, but I know that something could happen, such as a fall that immobilizes her, or an illness that's not related to her weight that could later become life threatening as a consequence of her weight. I understand this, and the risks involved, and she does too. This acknowledgement doesn't make me a monster, nor does it make her out to be a mindless syncophant who sacrifices herself to my desires. It simply means that I'm a responsible, caring individual and I'm mindful of how my behaviors could affect this person whom I care about." 

Because what I *am* seeing is that the weight gain is all her doing, he's not holding a gun to her head, and besides, HAES!! HAES!! RAH RAH RAH!!! At best, this seems immensely self-serving to me. At best.

And I feel the same way about FFA/BHM relationships, too. 

And I also know that it's actually not any of my effin' business, what consenting adults do. Nor am I trying to make it my business. My problem is that I can't stand the hypocrisy that's inherent in extreme denial, nor in the imbalance that can exist in relationships where one person can walk away at any time, relatively unscathed, all the while telling him/herself that choices made weren't his/her responsibility because he/she didn't make them!

So what I'm really saying, Lilly, is that perhaps people who do not live in supersized bodies SHOULD hear some of these realities.


----------



## LillyBBBW

TraciJo67 said:


> I don't understand it at all.
> 
> I get what you are saying, Lilly. Believe me, I do. I can't say that I understand from the same perspective that you or SuperO would, but I am a very prideful person too, and hanging my baggage out for the world to see is a concept that horrifies me. At least, that which makes me feel vulnerable. I'll talk all freakin' day about things that would be at least mildly off-putting to any sane person.
> 
> But look at what we're seeing in this thread. FA's cheerfully blathering on about the awesomesauceness that is weight gain and hey -- so what if she wants to gain. I'm not a bad guy for encouraging that -- she wants to! And she's healthy! And fat isn't unhealthy! And even if it is for some people, there's genetics and there's HAES and rah rah rah.
> 
> Which is not to say that there isn't any truth at all in such a mindset, but it's not a complete truth. I've worked at least tangentially with doctors and long-term care social workers/nurses, and I've seen what can happen to someone who is super-sized, and the condition that led to death (or permanent disability) wasn't initially related to his/her weight. I know that we've all heard it before, and I'm not parroting it here. I'm just saying, the mindset I'm seeing here makes me feel very uncomfortable because it DOESN'T seem grounded in reality, it doesn't encompass the fact that extreme weight can make a person correspondingly extremely _vulnerable_ to opportunistic illnesses and conditions that wouldn't typically be life-threatening.
> 
> Just once, I'd like to hear a non-fat person who loves to encourage weight gain say, "I know that my behaviors could be potentially harmful to this person that I care about. And no, it's not all about her and what she wants and even if she's 100% dedicated to gaining, with or without me, so long as I am in this relationship with her, I am also partially responsible for any consequences of our mutual actions. She's healthy and mobile right now, but I know that something could happen, such as a fall that immobilizes her, or an illness that's not related to her weight that could later become life threatening as a consequence of her weight. I understand this, and the risks involved, and she does too. This acknowledgement doesn't make me a monster, nor does it make her out to be a mindless syncophant who sacrifices herself to my desires. It simply means that I'm a responsible, caring individual and I'm mindful of how my behaviors could affect this person whom I care about."
> 
> Because what I *am* seeing is that the weight gain is all her doing, he's not holding a gun to her head, and besides, HAES!! HAES!! RAH RAH RAH!!! At best, this seems immensely self-serving to me. At best.
> 
> And I feel the same way about FFA/BHM relationships, too.
> 
> And I also know that it's actually not any of my effin' business, what consenting adults do. Nor am I trying to make it my business. My problem is that I can't stand the hypocrisy that's inherent in extreme denial, nor in the imbalance that can exist in relationships where one person can walk away at any time, relatively unscathed, all the while telling him/herself that choices made weren't his/her responsibility because he/she didn't make them!
> 
> So what I'm really saying, Lilly, is that perhaps people who do not live in supersized bodies SHOULD hear some of these realities.



I was going to end it here because it appears Supero is on timeout and can't respond. Most of what I have to say is critical of her choice to begin this thread the way she did and I feel it's unfair to do so at this juncture. I'm not arguing the merits of feederism here at all. It's none of my business either. My issue is that I think Supero's personal truth-crusade hurt some people here. These are REAL people here, not just objects to be used and held up for personal gratification, sexual or otherwise. This is why the supersized forum is private. A few times she waved it away as if it was meaningless to her. Personal struggles weren't as important as everyone's right to talk about them, how awful it is and how they will never let themselves get that way. Does it occur to anyone that most of the people who DO sturggle with these things were *never* feedees? I realize she was trying to begin a dialogue but why not start it on the health board and not root it in the misery of people who didn't want to die and struggled daily to live? This was an awful, awful thread. I couldn't quite articulate why it upset me so before. I still can't really, I'm overwhelmed. If it's not about how lazy and careless we are for letting this happen to us.... being used feels awful even if it's for a seemingly noble purpose.

ETA: If people need to hear about super sized struggles then let her tell her own. Tell the ones you had if you like. The way she started this thread though was terrible.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

DharmaDave said:


> Her death wasn't necessarily attributed to obesity. The attending physician made it a point to say to me that it wasn't "caused" by her being fat. I'm not sure why he did, to be honest with you. I didn't even think of it. Hiowever, the autopsy results indicated obesity as a preexisting health condition that contributed to her illness. They're really just grasping at the air, I think. It was a freak thing that could have happened to anyone, regardless of weight. I've been reading up on it and it seems like that she probably had a predisposition to clotting that was undiagnosed than then aggravated by hormone based birth control. But I can't help but worry that her being fat (actually not very fat, in dimensionsland) had some impact. As an "FA", the phrasing of the autopsy report can't help but wrack my conscience. Thanks for your support, BigBeautifulMe. Don't be infuriated. I'm not. Just incredibly devastated and looking for answers that aren't there. Death sucks.


 *Hugs* Dave.  I'm so sorry.


----------



## BeaBea

LillyBBBW said:


> I realize she was trying to begin a dialogue but why not start it on the health board and not root it in the misery of people who didn't want to die and struggled daily to live?



Lilly, 
I've been trying SO hard to put into words why I found this thread so offensive, hurtful and destructive. Your post says everything I wanted to and couldn't - and I tried to rep you and couldnt.
Thank You! :wubu:
Tracey xx


----------



## TraciJo67

Lilly, it's my understanding that she started the thread in the BBW forum, and a moderator moved it to the main board. If I'm wrong, I'm sure that I'll be corrected.


----------



## Paquito

TraciJo67 said:


> Lilly, it's my understanding that she started the thread in the BBW forum, and a moderator moved it to the main board. If I'm wrong, I'm sure that I'll be corrected.



Yea, it was moved so that BHMs could provide some input. Which didn't happen.


----------



## LillyBBBW

TraciJo67 said:


> Lilly, it's my understanding that she started the thread in the BBW forum, and a moderator moved it to the main board. If I'm wrong, I'm sure that I'll be corrected.



You are correct. The thing is, even if she started it in the health forum the issues would have been the same. It was the way the topic was begun, and I was especially ticked off that she started it in the BBW forum. It would take too long to explain exactly why but it was rooted in this belief that women are insipid enough to be supersized because men cheer us on to be. These understandings continue to unsult the intelligence of every person who ever dreaded the results of a physical.


----------



## imfree

Mod's sometimes do things without leaving 
a trace, aside from bitterness and anger in
those who saw the posts. I think my own
ass has been burned by posts I've never
seen. I'm not alone.


----------



## butch

It had no place in the BBW Forum, since the issues she brought up aren't gender-specific (even if most want to frame it that way). I don't know why nobody seems to 'care' about the poor supersized men of the world, just the supersized women, and it just sounds sexist and patronizing. Really, can anyone give a justifiable reason for this thread being on the BBW Forum, unless one thinks we shouldn't have any concern for the lived experiences of 400+ lb. men, and their thoughts on 'death and such'? 

FWIW, I didn't move the thread, or make a request that it should be moved, but I'm glad someone else thought it needed to be a thread where everyone had the freedom to comment.


----------



## BeaBea

butch said:


> I don't know why nobody seems to 'care' about the poor supersized men of the world, just the supersized women



Butch, I'm sure I recall that a board for Supersized men was discussed a while back and I dont think there were any specific objections to it. Like all of these things it would probably only take a group of enthusiastic Dimmers to make a good case, demonstrate the need for it and then to politely request it. I guess there would be no point in creating a board unless there was a clamor from a group of SS BHMs who wanted to use it though. 

Its absolutely NOT an indication that no-one cares about BHM issues, just, dont know, maybe more that women are more used to sharing all these issues and men are a little more reticent maybe?

Tracey


----------



## butch

BeaBea said:


> Butch, I'm sure I recall that a board for Supersized men was discussed a while back and I dont think there were any specific objections to it. Like all of these things it would probably only take a group of enthusiastic Dimmers to make a good case, demonstrate the need for it and then to politely request it. I guess there would be no point in creating a board unless there was a clamor from a group of SS BHMs who wanted to use it though.
> 
> Its absolutely NOT an indication that no-one cares about BHM issues, just, dont know, maybe more that women are more used to sharing all these issues and men are a little more reticent maybe?
> 
> Tracey



Thanks for the response, Tracey. The part you highlighted was me being sarcastic about this thread in particular, not in general about the lack of attention to BHMs in general in the fat poz world. I am mostly incredulous that people might think this thread had a legitimate place in the BBW Forum, considering the dialogue that was solicited from the OP.

I in no way think that people at Dims don't care about fat men, I just get tired of seeing the many ways fat men, fat FAs, fat queers, and others, get marginalized out of these discussions. To perhaps raise the spector of a "Rosa Parks for the fattys" moment, let me paraphrase a famous woman: "Ain't I a fatty too?"


----------



## imfree

BeaBea said:


> Butch, I'm sure I recall that a board for Supersized men was discussed a while back and I dont think there were any specific objections to it. Like all of these things it would probably only take a group of enthusiastic Dimmers to make a good case, demonstrate the need for it and then to politely request it. I guess there would be no point in creating a board unless there was a clamor from a group of SS BHMs who wanted to use it though.
> 
> Its absolutely NOT an indication that no-one cares about BHM issues, just, dont know, maybe more that women are more used to sharing all these issues and men are a little more reticent maybe?
> 
> Tracey



I did post a little on the subject of an 
SSBHM board a year or so ago. As a
guy, I'm even a little shy when it
comes to discussing SSBHM issues.


----------



## BeaBea

Thanks Butch, sorry, this thread has me so  I missed the sarcasm. I appreciate that you didnt jump down my throat!

Tracey xx


----------



## LillyBBBW

butch said:


> Thanks for the response, Tracey. The part you highlighted was me being sarcastic about this thread in particular, not in general about the lack of attention to BHMs in general in the fat poz world. I am mostly incredulous that people might think this thread had a legitimate place in the BBW Forum, considering the dialogue that was solicited from the OP.
> 
> I in no way think that people at Dims don't care about fat men, I just get tired of seeing the many ways fat men, fat FAs, fat queers, and others, get marginalized out of these discussions. To perhaps raise the spector of a "Rosa Parks for the fattys" moment, let me paraphrase a famous woman: "Ain't I a fatty too?"



A few months ago I sang in a concert gig where the two soloists were supersized women. Downstairs in the chorus room we were all regaled in almost every rehearsal with joking comments about the women's weight courtesy of our fearless director. He's a hot shot so no one dared cross him, but I wondered at how acceptable it was to comment on their bodies though if they were thin leggy buxom blondes there would be instant outrage. What's even more peculiar is that there were two male soloists as well, both of them were BHM of equal girth to the women. Their weight wasn't mentioned at all by anyone. 

This is not a "Boys against the girls" argument in the traditional sense. This isn't to say that BHMs don't have it as bad, I'm not in that camp at all. I do feel that there is a bit of misogyny at play when it comes to talking about women and their bodies. Women are more often depicted as being so weak that we would be the way we are to please a man, so let us have the conversation among us girls so the men can't come in here and lead the lambs astray. It's the same old saw and I'm finding myself getting tired of the insults.


----------



## bigmac

Angel said:


> Fat women (or fat men) who may have never had anyone appreciate their FAT body before may end up enjoying the attention and/or encouragement and might even get off on someone telling them that their body *is* acceptable and would be even *more* acceptable or *more sexy* if they gained. If they happen to take that encouragement and praise and (gasp) admiration and adoration and someone telling them that they love them and love their body and would love it even more if they gained as something positive, and then do end up gaining - intentionally or not, does that mean they have mental problems (or health problems above the neck, as you said)?



No they don't have any mental illness *but* people like you describe are in a very vulnerable position. I can't support anybody who takes advantage this kind of vulnerability.

I'd like everyone to ask themselves this question: * "If you had a 21 year old daughter or sister who was already over 300lbs and desperately lonely would you want her to hook up with a guy who encouraged her to gain more weight?"*

If anyone can actually answer "Yes" I'd love to hear their justification.


----------



## mossystate

I just don't think there is a real possibility of having certain conversations on a site that is so sexually charged, and created to be that way. That does change things up quite a bit. Have no idea all the reasons the OP originally placed this thread where they did...that's for her to say, if she can/will. 

As for fat men, I think that while support from others should be a no-brainer and simple decency - they will also have to start speaking up more for themselves, if they feel a need.


----------



## LillyBBBW

bigmac said:


> No they don't have any mental illness *but* people like you describe are in a very vulnerable position. I can't support anybody who takes advantage this kind of vulnerability.
> 
> I'd like everyone to ask themselves this question: * "If you had a 21 year old daughter or sister who was already over 300lbs and desperately lonely would you want her to hook up with a guy who encouraged her to gain more weight?"*
> 
> If anyone can actually answer "Yes" I'd love to hear their justification.



There is no justification for anyone taking advantage of ANY kind of mental vulnerability, thank you captian obvious.


----------



## bigmac

LillyBBBW said:


> There is no justification for anyone taking advantage of ANY kind of mental vulnerability, thank you captian obvious.



Yes its obvious -- But this kind of advantage taking is happening all around us with this communities tacit and even sometimes open support.


----------



## Blackjack

bigmac said:


> Yes its obvious -- But *this kind of advantage taking is happening all around us *with this communities tacit and even sometimes open support.









Seriously, can you give examples of this sort of manipulation or are you just making up some boogeyman feeder?


----------



## LillyBBBW

bigmac said:


> Yes its obvious -- But this kind of advantage taking is happening all around us with this communities tacit and even sometimes open support.



*yawn* Is it really bicmac?


----------



## joswitch

LillyBBBW said:


> A few months ago I sang in a concert gig where the two soloists were supersized women. Downstairs in the chorus room we were all regaled in almost every rehearsal with joking comments about the women's weight courtesy of our fearless director. He's a hot shot so no one dared cross him, but I wondered at how acceptable it was to comment on their bodies though if they were thin leggy buxom blondes there would be instant outrage. What's even more peculiar is that there were two male soloists as well, both of them were BHM of equal girth to the women. Their weight wasn't mentioned at all by anyone.
> 
> This is not a "Boys against the girls" argument in the traditional sense. This isn't to say that BHMs don't have it as bad, I'm not in that camp at all. I do feel that there is a bit of misogyny at play when it comes to talking about women and their bodies. *Women are more often depicted as being so weak that we would be the way we are to please a man, so let us have the conversation among us girls so the men can't come in here and lead the lambs astray. It's the same old saw and I'm finding myself getting tired of the insults.*


 
^Yes. 

...and from the male side - the FA/feeder as heartless, sociopathic predator shtick always seems to overwhelm the dialogue...:doh:


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> No they don't have any mental illness *but* people like you describe are in a very vulnerable position. I can't support anybody who takes advantage this kind of vulnerability.
> 
> I'd like everyone to ask themselves this question: * "If you had a 21 year old daughter or sister who was already over 300lbs and desperately lonely would you want her to hook up with a guy who encouraged her to gain more weight?"*
> 
> If anyone can actually answer "Yes" I'd love to hear their justification.



^I notice that you have avoided the hard questions I posed upthread re. personal autonomy / responsibility where an actual self-motivated, confident feedee who desires to gain is involved*...

All you've given us here is effectively equivalent to the - "won't someone please think of the children!?" argument used to stifle a lot of rational debate... I know you can do better than this, fella...


(*those remain "live" questions, requiring thought, for me at least... )


----------



## joswitch

superodalisque said:


> sometimes they are. remember you're talking about *people who have sometimes been told that they are unattractive by what seems like the entirety of society. even family who are suppose to love them can be abusive. *then suddenly someone tells them they are beautiful for maybe the 1st time in their lives they feel accepted. it can distort things at least for a while. some of the younger ones haven't even had the time to meet anyone IRL who would even date them yet. a lot of young men don't have that confidence yet in high school to date fat women openly. so these young women in particular are often under the impression that no one is attracted to them--which is definitely NOT true. i won't limit that perception to young women because many older women are under that misconception too. if they only knew how much they WERE being noticed and appreciated IRL. thats why we have to be careful. i really understand the need to be positive. but we can be positive but still be realistic and caring at the same time. that way everyone protects each other.



^I get what your saying here, but I have to say it's not unique to fat women, or fat people... It sounds a lot like how I felt when I was growing up, with a very definite sense that I was utterly unattractive to anyone... 


> all of this can be a nasty emotional trap for FAs. its probably not purposeful at all but it can end up making an FA into the ultimate bad guy in someone's head. when you couple someone who is completely unrealistic about their weight and the power they have to make decisions about it and control it at least to an extent as it regards their own choices and what that could mean to them overtime, they don't often take care or make any emotional or practical preparations. then when and if something bad does happen FAs often get blamed. you don't have to be a feeder to get blamed either. *a lot of feeders have said right here they are perfectly happy with the fantasy. **but if a guy is a feeder and a woman gains when she is with him sometimes she, her friends and her family use him as an easy scapegoat. they may label him as an enabler even if he might not be.* as we see here there are guys all over the map when it comes to their ideas about being a supportive partner. *i would say most of them wouldn't like to see their partner actually immobile or unhealthy.* and even if they had it as a fantasy i have the feeling the new would rub off of that very quickly when it became a reality as they saw their partner have to struggle daily. the truth is even if a guy presses a woman still should look out for herself. but it can be too easy if someone is in a co-dependent relationship to play the blame game instead of looking at themselves.
> 
> sometimes people unconsciously chose a partner for a reason. maybe its possible that some people have an out of control eating disorder and the need of a cover. if i were an FA and i met a woman who couldn't admit the truth about her health and the reality of her position enough to be proactive i would run like hell. what you want is someone who isn't afraid to face any possibility and doesn't live in a state of avoidance. then a lot of issues can be skirted in the first place. and if a woman is being proactive and taking care of herself you can be sure she is a responsible person who isn't going to blame all of her choices on you. she's not going to hide her reality from you and then blame you if you get overwhelmed by something that came at you from left field. if she is avoiding reality and making all kinds of excuses now, she can easily avoid it later by making you her whipping boy.* i've seen FAs, especially feeders, get blamed many times by exes when someone's health gets out of control. but what they often failed to mention is that they were often fat and gaining when they met the person and probably would have gone down that road with someone else anyway, because at the time that was what they were looking for emotionally*. they weren't interested in having a relationship with someone who'd love them fat and encourage them to be careful.



^SuperO (yeah, I know you're on time out)- this is one of the most nuanced and balanced posts I've read on this subject so far...

Tho' it is quite depressing...
As an FA/feeder I already have a minority sexuality as it is...
I personally have been/would be quite happy to "play" at feedism (a la BDSM play) as part of a wider sexual repertoire with an already BBW gf, who wasn't trying to/did not gain... 

That said, my recent experience has been that pretty much all BBWs I have met want to / are already engaged in Project-Halve-My-Bodyweight, which I have learnt = deal breaker for me... 

Which leaves me thinking that at least a possible feedee partner (actually gaining or not) would be more compatible with me  in that respect...
All the single feedees I know of are more-or-less actively gaining under their own steam.... And most seem pretty assertive about that and unlikely to be interested in any dude who's not enthusiastic for it...

Posts (like SuperO's above) so far in this thread do suggest a very unusual "burden-of-psycological-investigation" on an FA/feeder entering a relationship with a gainer... or even someone who's just y'know - a "bad fatty"... Which sounds like a recipe for a life of loneliness for an FA / feeder...


----------



## Szombathy

I'm surprised how little these arguments are being made by considering analogous behavior.

Two scenarios to consider:

1) Imagine a couple that came together through a mutual love of extreme surfing--the kind where 50 foot waves are surfed. Both people felt that extreme surfing together was an important part of their relationship, and that this was one major aspect of making life meaningful to them. They were skilled at extreme surfing, and tried to take precautions, but of course each were aware that despite these precautions their participation in extreme surfing put them at significant risk of a shorter lifespan. But in the meantime, they enjoyed their mutual hobby together for as long as they were fit to do it because the improvement in their quality of life was worth the risk of injury or premature death for them.

2) Imagine a couple that were mutually turned on through one of them using heroin. Although this person was reluctant to turn to heroin, they were insecure and were pressured by their spouse to frequently shoot up and this person relented and soon became addicted. Despite seeing their body waste away, this person was reluctant to go to extreme measures to stop using heroin because they were afraid their partner would not love them any more if they stopped (regardless of whether that was really true).

I believe that the vast majority relationships that involve feederism more closely resemble the first scenario than the second, and that the second is rare but possible in a feederism scenario if one or both partners have issues involving eating disorders or abuse that exist outside of the act of feeding itself.

Some of the confusion in this thread comes from some people having experiences more like scenario 1 and others more like scenario 2. I think that the second kind of relationship is always to be avoided, but in certain cases the first kind can be the right decision for two people.

Even a feeder/feedee relationship resembling the two consenting partners in the extreme surfing example may be subject to the benefit of hindsight. Obviously, people should think very carefully before venturing to gain a huge amount of weight, just as they should before making participation in a very dangerous sport a huge part of their lives. If a partner were seriously injured or paralyzed through their participation in extreme surfing, the other might have serious regrets. But that doesn't mean that such a relationship is wrong for all couples, just as it doesn't mean that having one or both members of a couple gain hundreds of pounds is wrong for all couples.


----------



## bigmac

joswitch said:


> ^I notice that you have avoided the hard questions I posed upthread re. personal autonomy / responsibility where an actual self-motivated, confident feedee who desires to gain is involved*...
> 
> All you've given us here is effectively equivalent to the - "won't someone please think of the children!?" argument used to stifle a lot of rational debate... I know you can do better than this, fella...
> 
> 
> (*those remain "live" questions, requiring thought, for me at least... )



I have been keeping my arguments pretty basic -- nuance tends to get lost around here. I'm going to sidestep your questions again. For me the issue is not the personal responsibility of the feedee -- its the people around him or her that encourage and enable what is ultimately self destructive behavior. Its very much like substance abuse -- ultimately people have to take responsibility for their own actions -- as they say you have to first admit you have a problem.

Going wine tasting in Napa for a weekend may be a great getaway for most couples. However, its not a good idea if one person is an alcoholic. Ultimately the alcoholic personally makes the decision to drink or not. But a spouse who puts his or her partner in such a tempting position by encouraging and facilitation a wine tasting trip knowing his or her spouse in an alcoholic is jointly responsible and certainly not acting in a loving or supportive way.


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> I have been keeping my arguments pretty basic -- nuance tends to get lost around here. I'm going to sidestep your questions again. For me the issue is not the personal responsibility of the feedee
> -- its the people around him or her that encourage and enable what is ultimately self destructive behavior.



Wait, so you are saying that single, sane, self-motivated feedee / gainers do not exist???? It's all about the feeder?

So, by your definition - all practising feeders are automatically "enablers", regardless of the thoughts, opinions and desires of the feedee.

Wow.
At a stroke you just defined an entire adult, consensual sexuality as always dysfunctional, destructive and morally reprehensible... 

Jeez, I sure hope you don't get into a position where you're creating legislation anytime soon...




> Its very much like substance abuse -- ultimately people have to take responsibility for their own actions -- as they say you have to first admit you have a problem.
> 
> Going wine tasting in Napa for a weekend may be a great getaway for most couples. However, its not a good idea if one person is an alcoholic. Ultimately the alcoholic personally makes the decision to drink or not. But a spouse who puts his or her partner in such a tempting position by encouraging and facilitation a wine tasting trip knowing his or her spouse in an alcoholic is jointly responsible and certainly not acting in a loving or supportive way.



Well, you say you're sidestepping, but you're not...
Your analogy here puts feedee/gainer as equivalent to an alcoholic...
That makes your position crystal clear.
As far as you're concerned feedee/gainers are addicts, and therefore you think that their genuine consent cannot exist...
Further, you see the feedee's "addiction" as destructive, and so any "enabling" like... oh, y'know serving dessert... is morally reprehensible...

(I'm having flashbacks to debating fat-haters on Witty Banter 8 years ago, who put forward the exact same feeder-as-wicked-abuser-of-addicted-fatties argument.)
*
When even people who are involved in fat acceptance still see fat as essentially bad / unhealthy, then feeders are by default evil. There is absolutely no way to be a feeder and be a "good" person. Even a self-feeding feedee is seen as some kind of addict to be pitied.* And people wonder why most feedees and feeders tend to keep it on the down low.:doh:


Ok.
Next question:
If you were dating someone and you found out they were an actively gaining feedee, what would you do / say? Would you stage some kind of intervention?? Or what???

In my experience gfs do not take kindly to their bfs trying to change them, psychologically, physically or otherwise... whether motivated by self-interest... or "concern"... 



Obviously, I disagree with your assessment.
I believe there are feedees and gainers out there who are sane, functioning, non-addicted adults who have some self-control and are capable of giving informed, meaningful consent.
And I don't believe that weight gain is necessarily comparable to alcohol consumption or smoking in it's level of harm* for a number of people... 

(*if any harm - where applicable - see qualification by: how, how much, other health factors, individual variation etc. etc.... E.g. for people suffering from the rare genetic disorder that gives rise to Prada Willi syndrome it definitely IS similar to alcoholism for the damage it does them personally)


----------



## SparkGirl

_*You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
*_


superodalisque said:


> i was removed from that forum because people thought i was going to tell tales out of school. i've never mentioned anything i've read there ever. and actually i hadn't even read in there in months. whatever my opinions are came from seeing people 1st hand and what they told me or from what other friends have told me. and i have never put that on any forum. i really don't get most of my opinions from forums here. people mention health problems all over the boards. so i don't really think it was about a fear of privacy. i think it was more that i spoke out about a reality and people did not like it because its not only web models spreading health fantasies around the forums. no wonder some FAs are so unprepared and bail when trouble shows its face. they are being mislead about whats really happening. its not just people being paid who are putting on the porn face.


----------



## vardon_grip

SparkGirl said:


> _You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
> _



It is very brave for the both of you to share your stories. I hope you find a way to ease your pain.


----------



## TraciJo67

butch said:


> It had no place in the BBW Forum, since the issues she brought up aren't gender-specific (even if most want to frame it that way). I don't know why nobody seems to 'care' about the poor supersized men of the world, just the supersized women, and it just sounds sexist and patronizing. Really, can anyone give a justifiable reason for this thread being on the BBW Forum, unless one thinks we shouldn't have any concern for the lived experiences of 400+ lb. men, and their thoughts on 'death and such'?
> 
> FWIW, I didn't move the thread, or make a request that it should be moved, but I'm glad someone else thought it needed to be a thread where everyone had the freedom to comment.


 
Butch, I wasn't questioning anyone's judgment in moving the thread. In fact, I agree that it doesn't belong in the BBW forum. I was just pointing out that Felicia probably started the thread there in hopes that she could avoid the kind of shitstorm that has since ensued.


----------



## CrankySpice

SparkGirl said:


> _*You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
> *_



First of all, I want to say that I am in no way making light of your current suffering. I know that our joints do take much wear and tear and often are sources of great pain as we age. Just to be clear on that.

However, I really feel the need to express my amazement at your statements that "Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger" because honestly, I don't know how you could be a living and breathing human being and NOT know all of the issues related to obesity. I'm not be facetious: I'm being dead serious. How is it possible that you presumably lived for some 30 odd years without ever hearing once from anyone - family, doctors, friends - or anywhere - TV, newspapers, internet - that you maybe possibly might have some health issues if you have a few extra pounds? How did you NOT receive the message that if you were essentially over a size 20, you already had one foot in the grave and may as well give up on living a "normal" life? I really want to know.

Because let me tell you, I sure as hell knew when I was 16 and roughly 20 lbs overweight that I was already knocking on death's door. And when I was 20 and 50 lbs overweight, I thought my life was more or less over. So for someone else who grew up in America (unless I'm mistaken and you grew up on some remote island where fatties ruled the world with goodness and light) to say that SHE NEVER KNEW HER FAT COULD LEAD TO HEALTH ISSUES is pretty much akin to saying you never knew who Elvis was or that surfers liked California or that Red Sox fans hate the Yankees. Because that information is pretty much as plentiful as air. I can hardly think of a single day that passes that I don't hear or see or read something somewhere that's telling me teh fatties are dying, teh fatties are dying!

So I don't think it's particularly "brave" of SuperO to "point out" this stuff to the young 'uns, or even we old 'uns. Because it's stuff WE ALL LIVE AND KNOW ALREADY. I actually find it quite nice to come to Dims and be able to talk about, I dunno, let's say a fabulous meal without apologizing for enjoying it or promising to jog after eating it or reading about women and men of all shapes and sizes getting out in the world and going to lectures and book signings and dance parties and shopping and sight seeing and actually LIVING LIFE and ENJOYING IT without anyone else telling them they best be watching themselves before they end up all miserable and hurty and unhappy, how dare you go around having good times WHEN THE END IS NEAR AND IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!

Yeah. Don't really need to read that, directly or indirectly. I think we all get plenty o' that from the everyday world without having to face it in a place generally considered a respite from those attitudes.


----------



## SparkGirl

_*Not that I feel the need to explain myself to you and anyone else, but that (below) is why...I have not lived my whole life heavy. Believe what you want, but I have a very supportive and loving family that never nagged me about my weight in regards to my health. If I ever had an warnings from them it was more for vanity reasons and the old "you have such a pretty face" line. In fact, I am the only one in my family that is truly heavy. I did not have heavy people as authority figures, or even heavy friends to give advice in my life, at that time. Honestly, the most I had ever received in my 20's, as far as warnings, from my doctors, were light suggestions to take off weight. My issues did not happen gradually, they came all the sudden when I hit 30ish and got to 400lbs. If I had a discussion back then from someone that I respect and admire, the way that I respect Felecia, about the issues she has faced, I would have seriously reconsidered the idea that I was just like everyone else, only bigger. I am sorry that you "sure as hell" knew it long before I did. I am not saying anyone's lifestyle is wrong, I am just saying I wish I had a role model like Felecia, back then. I guess I have not faced the negativity that you have, so sorry. Maybe you could have given me some advice, like you seem to be trying to now... *_



CrankySpice said:


> First of all, I want to say that I am in no way making light of your current suffering. I know that our joints do take much wear and tear and often are sources of great pain as we age. Just to be clear on that.
> 
> However, I really feel the need to express my amazement at your statements that "Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger" because honestly, I don't know how you could be a living and breathing human being and NOT know all of the issues related to obesity. I'm not be facetious: I'm being dead serious. How is it possible that you presumably lived for some 30 odd years without ever hearing once from anyone - family, doctors, friends - or anywhere - TV, newspapers, internet - that you maybe possibly might have some health issues if you have a few extra pounds? How did you NOT receive the message that if you were essentially over a size 20, you already had one foot in the grave and may as well give up on living a "normal" life? I really want to know.
> 
> Because let me tell you, I sure as hell knew when I was 16 and roughly 20 lbs overweight that I was already knocking on death's door. And when I was 20 and 50 lbs overweight, I thought my life was more or less over. So for someone else who grew up in America (unless I'm mistaken and you grew up on some remote island where fatties ruled the world with goodness and light) to say that SHE NEVER KNEW HER FAT COULD LEAD TO HEALTH ISSUES is pretty much akin to saying you never knew who Elvis was or that surfers liked California or that Red Sox fans hate the Yankees. Because that information is pretty much as plentiful as air. I can hardly think of a single day that passes that I don't hear or see or read something somewhere that's telling me teh fatties are dying, teh fatties are dying!
> 
> So I don't think it's particularly "brave" of SuperO to "point out" this stuff to the young 'uns, or even we old 'uns. Because it's stuff WE ALL LIVE AND KNOW ALREADY. I actually find it quite nice to come to Dims and be able to talk about, I dunno, let's say a fabulous meal without apologizing for enjoying it or promising to jog after eating it or reading about women and men of all shapes and sizes getting out in the world and going to lectures and book signings and dance parties and shopping and sight seeing and actually LIVING LIFE and ENJOYING IT without anyone else telling them they best be watching themselves before they end up all miserable and hurty and unhappy, how dare you go around having good times WHEN THE END IS NEAR AND IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!
> 
> Yeah. Don't really need to read that, directly or indirectly. I think we all get plenty o' that from the everyday world without having to face it in a place generally considered a respite from those attitudes.



View attachment Me&Chick.jpg


----------



## CrankySpice

SparkGirl said:


> _*Not that I feel the need to explain myself to you and anyone else, but that (below) is why...I have not lived my whole life heavy. Believe what you want, but I have a very supportive and loving family that never nagged me about my weight in regards to my health. If I ever had an warnings from them it was more for vanity reasons and the old "you have such a pretty face" line. In fact, I am the only one in my family that is truly heavy. I did not have heavy people as authority figures, or even heavy friends to give advice in my life, at that time. Honestly, the most I had ever received in my 20's, as far as warnings, from my doctors, were light suggestions to take off weight. My issues did not happen gradually, they came all the sudden when I hit 30ish and got to 400lbs. If I had a discussion back then from someone that I respect and admire, the way that I respect Felecia, about the issues she has faced, I would have seriously reconsidered the idea that I was just like everyone else, only bigger. I am sorry that you "sure as hell" knew it long before I did. I am not saying anyone's lifestyle is wrong, I am just saying I wish I had a role model like Felecia, back then. I guess I have not faced the negativity that you have, so sorry. Maybe you could have given me some advice, like you seem to be trying to now... *_



I guess I'm still confused because on the one hand, you said you weren't fat and therefore unaware, but on the other you suddenly hit 30 and were 400 lbs. with all kinds of health issues. Not sure when exactly someone would've been able to stage an intervention with that timing.


----------



## TraciJo67

bigmac said:


> I have been keeping my arguments pretty basic -- *nuance tends to get lost around here*. I'm going to sidestep your questions again. For me *the issue is not the personal responsibility of the feedee -- its the people around him or her that encourage and enable what is ultimately self destructive behavior*. Its very much like substance abuse -- ultimately people have to take responsibility for their own actions -- as they say you have to first admit you have a problem.
> 
> Going wine tasting in Napa for a weekend may be a great getaway for most couples. However, its not a good idea if one person is an alcoholic. Ultimately the alcoholic personally makes the decision to drink or not. But a spouse who puts his or her partner in such a tempting position by encouraging and facilitation a wine tasting trip knowing his or her spouse in an alcoholic is jointly responsible and certainly not acting in a loving or supportive way.


 
Bigmac, I couldn't agree more about nuance getting lost. I feel that I have to parse each word, and toss in a disclaimer every other sentence, so that I don't get the kind of knee-jerk overreactions that I'm going to be highlighting below.

The only thing that I'd disagree with is the difference between "what is ultimately self destructive behavior" vs. "what could be or become self destructive behavior". It's semantics, but it's an important distinction. Not every feeder/feedee is engaged in self-destructive behavior. I think you'd agree with that.



joswitch said:


> Wait, so you are saying that single, sane, self-motivated feedee / gainers do not exist???? It's all about the feeder?
> 
> So, by your definition - all practising feeders are automatically "enablers", regardless of the thoughts, opinions and desires of the feedee.
> 
> Wow.
> At a stroke you just defined an entire adult, consensual sexuality as always dysfunctional, destructive and morally reprehensible...


 
... and this is why you have to carefully choose every word, Bigmac. 

Joswitch, over the years, I've grown to like you and your sense of humor, your intelligence, the unique way that you express yourself. I view you as reasonable, somewhat pragmatic, and usually gracious (even at times downright charming) with others. I know that some have accused you of pandering for your own nefarious purposes. I don't believe that. I think that you are a warm and empathetic person who wishes to be liked. But I've also seen that you'd never allow your principles to be trampled upon in the process.

So, now that I've finished blowing smoke up yo' ass p), let's get down to it. What you've said above is a load of bunk, and I think you know that it's a load of bunk. Bigmac's choice of words were maybe a bit careless, because he allowed you an opening, and you wasted no time in taking it -- twisting his intent, and his meaning, and inflating his position to a level of the absurd.




> Well, you say you're sidestepping, but you're not...
> Your analogy here puts feedee/gainer as equivalent to an alcoholic...
> That makes your position crystal clear.
> As far as you're concerned feedee/gainers are addicts, and therefore you think that their genuine consent cannot exist...
> Further, you see the feedee's "addiction" as destructive, and so any "enabling" like... oh, y'know serving dessert... is morally reprehensible...


 
It's a troublesome analogy, but there are unavoidable parallels, Jos. Not all people who abuse alcohol are by definition alcoholics, just as not all feeders/feedees engage in completely irresponsible behaviors. It is not disrespectful to those who drink, even to excess at times, to point out that alcoholics were once just people who drank to excess at times. It isn't saying that YOU are going to be an alcoholic, anymore than I've seen it suggested that YOU are an evil feeder without a conscience. But it is ridiculous to simply avoid discussing the topic at all because someone, somewhere, who drinks to excess at times might get offended. The message is what it is, and you make of it what you will. 



> Obviously, I disagree with your assessment.
> I believe there are feedees and gainers out there who are sane, functioning, non-addicted adults who have some self-control and are capable of giving informed, meaningful consent.
> And I don't believe that weight gain is necessarily comparable to alcohol consumption or smoking in it's level of harm* for a number of people...
> 
> (*if any harm - where applicable - see qualification by: how, how much, other health factors, individual variation etc. etc.... E.g. for people suffering from the rare genetic disorder that gives rise to Prada Willi syndrome it definitely IS similar to alcoholism for the damage it does them personally)


 
I agree with this. I can also believe that red flags abound with many within our Dims community, and to me, Red Flag #1 is when members -- particularly FA's and FFA's, if I'm to be completely honest -- attempt to squelch, diminish, or minimize any meaningful discussion of what living in a supersized body means, _particularly when the OP is supersized_, by parsing language and engaging in a debate of semantics. I also believe that there are feeders/feedees who are sane, rational, and capable of meaningful consent. That doesn't mean that they are always making informed decisions. When I was young, it just never occured to me that I would one day struggle to walk without pain, to climb a flight of stairs without breaking into a cold, gasping sweat, to find myself limited by my size in terms of what I *wanted* to do versus what I was *capable* of doing. In my 20's, I could do it all. Full-time work while pursuing a bachelor's and then master's degree, full-time social life, up until the crack of dawn, able to move and do and go with little more than natural enthusiasm, an infusion of carbs 'n caffeine, and a few snatched hours of sleep here and there. I am incapable of that kind of juggling act anymore, and it's not even my weight that limits me. But when I read about SuperO's struggles, and what has been shared over the years by other women who are finding themselves incapacitated or unable to engage in activities that are meaningful to them, I listen to what they have to say. I do not take it personally. They aren't using ME as a cautionary tale. They aren't finger wagging at ME and warning me that if I don't put down the croissant, bad former fatty that I am, I'm going to end up just like them. That's the point I think you're missing, and that a whole helluva lot of offended people are missing, too: It's not about [the collective] YOU. Yes, there is some very genuine empathy and concern being expressed, and it's being overlooked, because defensive people are choosing to reduce it to the tried 'n true (if somewhat tired) 'bad fatty' rhetoric. What's wrong with trying on what fits, casting aside that which doesn't, and sharing your own experiences with a minimum of hyperbole? Don't assume that SuperO is using herself as a cautionary tale. When I share my experiences, that is the very effing LAST thing that I'm doing. Because at the very heart of all of my sum total of horrific decisions, terrible mistakes, wasted opportunities, self-inflicted harm and pain and misery, there is this truth: If I'd have changed a thing, I wouldn't be where I am today. I wouldn't have my son. I can't regret much of what I did or didn't do, because every experience shaped me into who I needed to be, in order to do what I've done today. But if I could, if it were at all possible for me to go back and change some things, I would. It's not. It is, however, possible for me to share some of those experiences with people who find themselves in similar situations and hope -- just hope -- that maybe they can find an easier path. And yet, I also know this: There is very little that anyone could have said or done that would have changed my young mind about decisions that I was determined to make. It's a fine line no matter which side of this discussion we're on: I try not to judge, and I know it's not my place to do so, yet I won't enable harmful behaviors, and sometimes, I genuinely feel that my silence implies consent.


----------



## SparkGirl

_* I am not here to give you, or anyone else, an explanation...I am here to talk about how I FEEL, as Felecia has stated numerous times in this thread, as her intention. *_



CrankySpice said:


> I guess I'm still confused because on the one hand, you said you weren't fat and therefore unaware, but on the other you suddenly hit 30 and were 400 lbs. with all kinds of health issues. Not sure when exactly someone would've been able to stage an intervention with that timing.


----------



## bigmac

joswitch said:


> Next question:
> If you were dating someone and you found out they were an actively gaining feedee, what would you do / say? Would you stage some kind of intervention?? Or what???



Lets limit the following answer by assuming that the GF in question was already supersized and still wanted to gain (a very different animal from an average sized person who likes to eat a lot and may gain 20 or 30 pounds). I was actually in this situation about seven years ago. A girl I was dating turned out to be some sort of feedee -- she never talked about gaining weight but was forever sending me out to get ice cream or Taco Bell (I learned where all the 24hr places in Sacramento were). She had been gaining at a fair clip -- about 120lbs in the prior five years. Because it was clear for a variety of reasons that the relationship wouldn't last I never said anything. The girl in question was still in her twenties at the time but was already having size related issues (like difficulty driving or walking more than a few yards). Had she and I been more compatible in other ways her gaining weight would have become an issue because as shallow as this may seem there's no way I could stand by and watch someone I cared for eat them-self to death (or at least to very limited mobility). I probably would have broken up with her -- a feedee may make up their own mind to gain weight but that doesn't mean I have to stick around to watch.


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## TraciJo67

CrankySpice said:


> However, I really feel the need to express my amazement at your statements that "Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger" because honestly, I don't know how you could be a living and breathing human being and NOT know all of the issues related to obesity. I'm not be facetious: I'm being dead serious. How is it possible that you presumably lived for some 30 odd years without ever hearing once from anyone - family, doctors, friends - or anywhere - TV, newspapers, internet - that you maybe possibly might have some health issues if you have a few extra pounds?


 
I heard. I knew. I just didn't care. They didn't apply to me, because I didn't FEEL unhealthy while smoking, toking, and eating what I wanted, when I wanted. 

And I damn well know that I'm not alone in that unique sense of denial of mortality/natural consequences of actions that comes part 'n parcel with most people's youth.


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## CrankySpice

TraciJo67 said:


> I heard. I knew. I just didn't care. They didn't apply to me, because I didn't FEEL unhealthy while smoking, toking, and eating what I wanted, when I wanted.
> 
> And I damn well know that I'm not alone in that unique sense of denial of mortality/natural consequences of actions that comes part 'n parcel with most people's youth.



Oh, THAT I can get behind 150%. The fact that youth* won't absorb those warnings personally is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

I use words like youth as a noun. I'm such an old lady. Hey you damn kids, get off my lawn!


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## Shosh

SparkGirl said:


> _*You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
> *_



Preach it girl.

Facing the reality of a situation can be painful and hard, but it can also be very freeing.


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## vardon_grip

_Men come, go, sing and dance, without uttering a word about death. All this is very fine: but, when it comes either to themselves, their wives, their children, or their friends, taking them unawares and unprepared, then what torment, what outcries, what madness and despair._
Montaigne, 1533-1592

Yul Brynner made this PSA just before his death. He obviously couldn't stop anyone after his death, but I guess he wanted to say what was on his mind based on his own experience.


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## LillyBBBW

SparkGirl said:


> _*You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
> *_



Sparkgirl I'm sorry to hear you are having such a rough go of it. Honestly there is no way any one could tell you something like that. So far in this thread we learned you can be in your 20s, active and die of a bloodclot. There are people out there who are sorry they had weightloss surgery. There are all kinds of people in this world with all kinds of experiences and they could all scream, "No! Don't!" but no one ever really knows or can predict.


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## BeaBea

LillyBBBW said:


> There are all kinds of people in this world with all kinds of experiences and they could all scream, "No! Don't!" but no one ever really knows or can predict.



I think few of us have the gift of being able to listen and understand what something is like just from a description, and even fewer of us from a cautionary tale. Its been public knowledge for at least 50 years that smoking does harm and yet new smokers are still lighting up every day. The case against tobacco is more clear cut and far better researched than the nebulous concept of how 'too much' weight affects an individual. 

We're all human though - whether we die from smoking, skydiving or a drug fuelled sex orgy on our 95th birthday there will always be those who accuse us of having in some way failed because we didn't listen to the warning signs. Just as there will be some who duck the responsibility and claim they never saw any signs and any way, even if they did, they didnt know they applied to them.

My Father has a saying which goes something like - 'One mile of walking is worth 10,000 miles of maps' - some things you CANT be told, you have to experience them. What you do with that experience and whether you can learn from it and change though is a whole other thing...*

Tracey xx

* If you know can do this, please tell me how!


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## Never2fat4me

CrankySpice said:


> I really feel the need to express my amazement at your statements that "Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger" because honestly, I don't know how you could be a living and breathing human being and NOT know all of the issues related to obesity. I'm not be facetious: I'm being dead serious. How is it possible that you presumably lived for some 30 odd years without ever hearing once from anyone - family, doctors, friends - or anywhere - TV, newspapers, internet - that you maybe possibly might have some health issues if you have a few extra pounds? How did you NOT receive the message that if you were essentially over a size 20, you already had one foot in the grave and may as well give up on living a "normal" life? I really want to know.



Give SparkGirl a break! She is sharing her story, and it is a compelling one.

I don't think what she shared is all that surprising, really. People - especially when they are young - may be aware of the risks they face, but there is a difference between that and really knowing what the problems are. We do all sorts of stupid things when we are young, even though we "know" they are stupid. The difference, as I see it, is that while you may not be ignorant of the facts, they are not part of your "consciousness" and you don't really think about them. They are more like background noise. You don't consciously ignore them - e.g., you're not thinking "lalalalala - I can't hear you, muzak!" You know it's there but you unconsciously tune it out. Same thing with the risks of being supersized.

Chris


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## KHayes666

bigmac said:


> No they don't have any mental illness *but* people like you describe are in a very vulnerable position. I can't support anybody who takes advantage this kind of vulnerability.
> 
> I'd like everyone to ask themselves this question: * "If you had a 21 year old daughter or sister who was already over 300lbs and desperately lonely would you want her to hook up with a guy who encouraged her to gain more weight?"*
> 
> If anyone can actually answer "Yes" I'd love to hear their justification.



You can't really ask that kind of question. The encourager in question could be an ugly, retarded, sociopath, a sharp dressed, fast talking player or a generally happy normal guy. Simply liking big girls and weight gain doesn't automatically make someone a sociopath/psychopath/etc

Besides, who says the 21 year old woman and the guy (who could be her age by the way) wouldn't get married, have children and live happily ever after?


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## Angel

CrankySpice said:


> First of all, I want to say that I am in no way making light of your current suffering. I know that our joints do take much wear and tear and often are sources of great pain as we age. Just to be clear on that.
> 
> However, I really feel the need to express my amazement at your statements that "Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger" because honestly, I don't know how you could be a living and breathing human being and NOT know all of the issues related to obesity. I'm not be facetious: I'm being dead serious. How is it possible that you presumably lived for some 30 odd years without ever hearing once from anyone - family, doctors, friends - or anywhere - TV, newspapers, internet - that you maybe possibly might have some health issues if you have a few extra pounds? How did you NOT receive the message that if you were essentially over a size 20, you already had one foot in the grave and may as well give up on living a "normal" life? I really want to know.
> 
> Because let me tell you, I sure as hell knew when I was 16 and roughly 20 lbs overweight that I was already knocking on death's door. And when I was 20 and 50 lbs overweight, I thought my life was more or less over. So for someone else who grew up in America (unless I'm mistaken and you grew up on some remote island where fatties ruled the world with goodness and light) to say that SHE NEVER KNEW HER FAT COULD LEAD TO HEALTH ISSUES is pretty much akin to saying you never knew who Elvis was or that surfers liked California or that Red Sox fans hate the Yankees. Because that information is pretty much as plentiful as air. I can hardly think of a single day that passes that I don't hear or see or read something somewhere that's telling me teh fatties are dying, teh fatties are dying!





I was born in 1963. I come from a family of big and tall people. From toddler age until age 14 I was always bigger and about a foot taller than others my age. At age 14 the boys finally were as tall as me. Until after the age of 19 I was as active, or more physically active, as my peers. I may not have been able to run as fast or for as long but I did everything else they did. Band, marching band, basketball, volleyball, tennis, walked almost a mile to and from school every day, spent lunch period in the weight room lifting weight with the guys, rode bikes everywhere after school. I was 5'8 3/4" and weighed 250 pounds, and could bench press and curl over 80 pounds. I was healthy. After age 19 my lifestyle changed. I wasn't as physically active as before. I started gaining. I went to the doctor's regularly. Yearly physicals. 

My family was healthy. Most lived up until in their late 70s. Some as far as to their mid 80s. Only one relative had adult type 2 diabetes. Two relatives had arthritis: a 6'1" 180 pound male and a 5'5" 150 pound female. One relative developed high blood pressure in her 30s; two older (70s) relatives did months before their death. Two male relatives developed diabetes right before their death. One male relative died at age 62 from a heart attack that was brought on from severe pneumonia. One female relative developed adult onset type 2 diabetes as a direct result of very high doses of steroids. 

Every year I get a complete blood count test, have thyroid functioning checked, and get checked for diabetes - all as precautionary tests. I've had heart sonograms, echograms, EKGs, wore Holter monitors, had lung functioning tests, multiple lung x-rays. So far so good. The only thing I have that is probably directly related to my size is moderately high blood pressure, and that is controlled and stays withing normal range with medication. The HBP started just before age 30. If I sit in one place all day long and don't move at all, my feet and ankles swell, but that all returns to normal after laying down and sleeping. That began in the past year and a half. 

As for my heart, I don't have excessive plaque in my arteries. Tests have shown that there is no more than any other healthy 40something. I do think that has a lot to do with not eating red meat hardly ever and with not smoking. I had a test done at the Cleveland Clinic by cardiologists there about five years ago. There findings (predictions/conclusions) were that I had a less than 10% chance of having a heart attack within the following ten years. 

I am 46 now and I've had two doctors in the past tell me that I would be a good candidate for WLS because I don't have the usual comorbidities that most people my size do. It wasn't suggested to 'help me get better', or because they thought I had one foot in the grave, but because my overall health was good. After I have the yearly blood work done, doctors go over and over the results. On several occasions I have been told, "I was expecting to find.... but your's is within normal range." So, no. I haven't ever got the you-are-so-fat-and unhealthy-and-you-are-gonna-fall-over-and-die message. Instead I have gotten, "whatever you have been doing, keep doing it" said to me many times over by my physicians.

Where I do see the you're-so-fat-you're-gonna-die message is here of all places; and of course on reality television shows like The Biggest Loser; and when ever some new health fanatic comes out with a new best seller. Hysteria is, after all, what gets attention and what sells in the media. Fill someone with enough fear and they will buy anything to try to get rid of that fear.

About ten years ago a new physician set up his practice in the city where I live. He was personal friends with my family doctor. I was fortunate enough to get to attend an open house and hear the new physician speak. What made him different than other doctors? He was a bariatric physician. No. Not a doctor that does WLS. A physician whose specialty was treating bariatric patients. See before WLS became so popular and before it was being sold as a cure all, bariatrics was a field that very few physicians specialized in. That young 30 something new bariatric physician even explained that during his years of schooling, that only about two weeks was spent learning about the differences found in the bodies of super morbidly obese patients. The term super morbidly obese was a medical term that described someone who was 100 pounds above their ideal body weight. Super-super morbidly obese was the term for those 200 pounds or more above the ideal body weight. That bariatric physician's specialty was NOT weight loss surgery. His philosophy and medical practice was more about helping bariatric patients get the proper care and testing available, and helping them to live the best life that they physically could. 

Now, ten years later, bariatric medicine refers to a completely different thing than it used to. About the only time you hear the word bariatrics is when it is used in conjunction with promoting weight loss surgery. As with life, and time, the face of medicine changes. We live in a time where instant gratification, quick fixes, and getting rich at any cost is what is popular. Physicians, medical organizations, medical insurance companies, pharmacutical companies, etc. want to cut costs and get their piece of the pie, too. Why do you think every new diet drug is pushed into the market before any significant long term medical testing is done? Look at where the messages are coming from. If the message was truly about helping fat people lead healthier lives, media and those pushing whatever the new cure all is wouldn't be trying to make people feel 'ugly' or 'bad' or 'less than' in order to buy a product or procedure. Advertising would be only based upon the positive health benefits of a product or procedure. 


The one thing that I _have been_ warned about as far as my size and degree of fatness is that if there ever were some serious issue that arose medically, that my size could possibly hinder the necessary procedure, the healing time, and/or the outcome. When I talked to the physicians at the CC, I was measured and told that if I ever needed laproscopic surgery, that the incision would be best made about eight inches above my belly button, and that laproscopic surgery would be tried first, but if everything could not be seen internally, that they would have to do an open surgery instead. There were also warnings that tissue healing may take longer, and often times there ends up being infection at the wound site, or open wounds that take a lot more care and even longer healing time. The greatest fear that my doctors have had is with the amount of anesthsia that would be needed if I ever needed emergency surgery. I was given the option of having only a local and being awake. All of these options were explored and an emergency plan of action made (and in place) because I have several gall stones. So far, medication and avoiding red meat has staved off the severe attacks. I can live with that.  And for those wondering, the gall stones were caused by medically supervised liquid diets years before being made popular by Oprah.


----------



## LillyBBBW

BeaBea said:


> I think few of us have the gift of being able to listen and understand what something is like just from a description, and even fewer of us from a cautionary tale. Its been public knowledge for at least 50 years that smoking does harm and yet new smokers are still lighting up every day. The case against tobacco is more clear cut and far better researched than the nebulous concept of how 'too much' weight affects an individual.
> 
> We're all human though - whether we die from smoking, skydiving or a drug fuelled sex orgy on our 95th birthday there will always be those who accuse us of having in some way failed because we didn't listen to the warning signs. Just as there will be some who duck the responsibility and claim they never saw any signs and any way, even if they did, they didnt know they applied to them.
> 
> My Father has a saying which goes something like - 'One mile of walking is worth 10,000 miles of maps' - some things you CANT be told, you have to experience them. What you do with that experience and whether you can learn from it and change though is a whole other thing...*
> 
> Tracey xx
> 
> * If you know can do this, please tell me how!



Agreed. Someone told me that if I took birth control pills to control spotting between periods it would reduce my risk of ovarian cancer. Cancer kills almost everybody in my family so like the trillions of other women around the world I took them, only I nearly died that same year. If I knew then what I know now would I have taken those pills? Of course not, but was I warned? Of course I was, it's right there written on the box. Even if I met someone who told me their story I still would have taken them because it was a chance. I didn't want to get cancer and have my innards taken out. I was warned that blood clots were a risk factor for the pill but I didn't think it would happen to me at 24. Neither did anyone else despite my weight, not even at the doctor's office. I nearly had to threaten to burn the clinic down to get anyone to take seriously the fact that I couldn't walk from the chair to the desk without huffing and puffing like I'd run a marathon. People pick and choose when and what they will blame fat for. As far as they were concerned fat was why I couldn't breath.  Once I was diagnosed, THEN everybody said, "Oh yeah. Fat made the clots." People pick and choose and the messages can be so confusing. I'm going to be 44 in a month and instead of celebrating I'm freaking out wondering what horrible thing is going to happend to me next year. I can't possibly know but one thing I don't want is to be angry that I didn't do more of the things I said I was going to do while I had the chance because I used my fat as an excuse. I'm doing all I can to get the most out of life that I can and maybe that's what's keeping me alive. Nevertheless I don't think I will die with any regrets. I did all that I could do.


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## CrankySpice

Angel said:


> Where I do see the you're-so-fat-you're-gonna-die message is here of all places; and of course on reality television shows like The Biggest Loser; and when ever some new health fanatic comes out with a new best seller. Hysteria is, after all, what gets attention and what sells in the media. Fill someone with enough fear and they will buy anything to try to get rid of that fear.



Exactly my point: it's impossible to avoid if you have a tv, newspaper, or the internet anywhere within your proximity or within the proximity of the people around you.

Thanks for sharing your story, it actually is remarkably similar to mine.


----------



## TraciJo67

KHayes666 said:


> You can't really ask that kind of question. The encourager in question could be an ugly, retarded, sociopath, a sharp dressed, fast talking player or a generally happy normal guy. Simply liking big girls and weight gain doesn't automatically make someone a sociopath/psychopath/etc
> 
> Besides, who says the 21 year old woman and the guy (who could be her age by the way) wouldn't get married, have children and live happily ever after?


 
Yes, I can answer that kind of question. I wouldn't care if he was ugly, retarded, sociopathic, a sharp dressed fast talking player or a generally happy normal guy. If he wanted my daughter to intentionally gain weight because it pleased him (and her) sexually, I would be horrified. What motivated *him* wouldn't matter to me. My child matters to me, and I wouldn't want you or anyone else to play Russian Roulette with his/her health and well-being. That she COULD be fine, and likely WOULD be fine, doesn't matter to a parent, who is focused on the fact that a risk is being taken. This isn't a question that people can address rationally, without emotions getting in the way -- I do agree with that. But then, most parents are all emotion when it comes to their kids. And I think that is at least part of the point that Bigmac was trying to make.


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## LillyBBBW

KHayes666 said:


> You can't really ask that kind of question. The encourager in question could be an ugly, retarded, sociopath, a sharp dressed, fast talking player or a generally happy normal guy. Simply liking big girls and weight gain doesn't automatically make someone a sociopath/psychopath/etc
> 
> *Besides, who says the 21 year old woman and the guy (who could be her age by the way) wouldn't get married, have children and live happily ever after*?



Just about every sane, decent sentiment in the world says this. He could be a movie star or a millionaire: if he's taking advantage of someone he's scum.


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## EtobicokeFA

SparkGirl said:


> _*You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
> *_



I am truly sorry, to hear you are having so many issues. Thank you for sharing your story, and I hope you find a way to ease your pain.

It would be great to have someone who as already been there to share what to expect and that we are honest with each other, so we can make a educated decision.


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## Jes

EtobicokeFA said:


> It would be great to have someone who as already been there to share what to expect and that we are honest with each other, so we can make a educated decision.



You know what I wish? That someone had shown me a more balanced way of looking at food and my body and exercise and all of that. I wish someone had engaged me on the topic of what diet means, and by that I mean what one eats, not how to eat less. If someone had explained how to make effective choices, how to read packaging information, how to know when you have a dysfunctional relationship with food, how to integrate exercise, how to feel confident doing physical activities, but all without the spectre of 'if you're not skinny, you're not working hard enough.' 

Yes, there's HAES. And while I didn't know much about HAES 'til I came to Dims, I don't really see Dims as a HAES board. Yes, it's possible to be healthy at any size. I don't think I'm healthy at my size; I feel the same about some others. Health isn't defined just by cholesterol level for me. It involves walking up steps. It involves getting cramps when walking minor distances. It's about mental health, too. 

I wish I had someone to talk about portion size without diet talk...as well as encouraging me to take back my desire for exercise as an adult. I hated gym class when I was young, and still can't hit a ball with a bat for love OR money, but thank god I finally decided some years ago that my body was worth exercising in public. I think discussing all of that with someone in my same boat would've helped me a lot. I think that's what some WLS patients have talked about here, too--their need to have a dialog with people who have WLS but also don't plan on losing all but 130 lbs. These can be hard niches to fill, which is why I now go elsewhere for that.


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## KHayes666

TraciJo67 said:


> Yes, I can answer that kind of question. I wouldn't care if he was ugly, retarded, sociopathic, a sharp dressed fast talking player or a generally happy normal guy. If he wanted my daughter to intentionally gain weight because it pleased him (and her) sexually, I would be horrified. What motivated *him* wouldn't matter to me. My child matters to me, and I wouldn't want you or anyone else to play Russian Roulette with his/her health and well-being. That she COULD be fine, and likely WOULD be fine, doesn't matter to a parent, who is focused on the fact that a risk is being taken. This isn't a question that people can address rationally, without emotions getting in the way -- I do agree with that. But then, most parents are all emotion when it comes to their kids. And I think that is at least part of the point that Bigmac was trying to make.



I may have missed your point earlier.

If someone's being taking advantage of for someone else's selfish reasons, then I'd be aghast if they tried to do that to my daughter/sister/etc. I see what you're saying there.

What I'm saying if that's what the other party WANTS than as an adult she has the right to make the decision herself.


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## LillyBBBW

Jes said:


> You know what I wish? That someone had shown me a more balanced way of looking at food and my body and exercise and all of that. I wish someone had engaged me on the topic of what diet means, and by that I mean what one eats, not how to eat less. If someone had explained how to make effective choices, how to read packaging information, how to know when you have a dysfunctional relationship with food, how to integrate exercise, how to feel confident doing physical activities, but all without the spectre of 'if you're not skinny, you're not working hard enough.'
> 
> Yes, there's HAES. And while I didn't know much about HAES 'til I came to Dims, I don't really see Dims as a HAES board. Yes, it's possible to be healthy at any size. I don't think I'm healthy at my size; I feel the same about some others. Health isn't defined just by cholesterol level for me. It involves walking up steps. It involves getting cramps when walking minor distances. It's about mental health, too.
> 
> I wish I had someone to talk about portion size without diet talk...as well as encouraging me to take back my desire for exercise as an adult. I hated gym class when I was young, and still can't hit a ball with a bat for love OR money, but thank god I finally decided some years ago that my body was worth exercising in public. I think discussing all of that with someone in my same boat would've helped me a lot. I think that's what some WLS patients have talked about here, too--their need to have a dialog with people who have WLS but also don't plan on losing all but 130 lbs. These can be hard niches to fill, which is why I now go elsewhere for that.



I hear people say here, "I wanna talk to others like me," but as you've pointed out we're much too diverse a group here. It's a mistake to assume that because someone is fat they're going to get you and have the same goals and understandings. It's the same here as it would be anywhere else. Regardless of what changes you embrace there will always be detractors and doubters whose support would be in a detached, "Good luck with that, Debbie," kind of way. I think it's wise to just shop around for what you need. When I need support if I don't find it in one place then I move on to another. It hasn't necessarily corresponded with one's body size. Random people get me in ways I can't even find from my own family at times. People are too diverse to be able to say, "Look at these people. They'll understand."


----------



## bigmac

KHayes666 said:


> What I'm saying if that's what the other party WANTS than as an adult she has the right to make the decision herself.



There's a difference between an adult making a bad decision herself and a spouse/friend actively supporting that decision. If you love someone you don't support or encourage their self-destructive activity (no matter how voluntary).


----------



## BeaBea

bigmac said:


> There's a difference between an adult making a bad decision herself and a spouse/friend actively supporting that decision. If you love someone you don't support or encourage their self-destructive activity (no matter how voluntary).



I genuinely dont understand how that can work in this context. If my date and I decide to go out for dinner is he supporting and encouraging me to gain weight? Your argument would only make sense if it were possible to actually give up food completely. There are plenty of folk who would look at me and believe from my size that I was just a single calorie away from death. They would question someones motives for supporting/encouraging my decision to eat undressed lettuce or for having a slice of lemon in my still water. 

Tracey

PS - Tried really hard to avoid the 'giving up food, cold turkey' jokes here. How did I do?


----------



## AnnMarie

bigmac said:


> There's a difference between an adult making a bad decision herself and a spouse/friend actively supporting that decision. If you love someone you don't support or encourage their self-destructive activity (no matter how voluntary).



So no non-smokers with smokers, no one should date skydivers or other extreme athletes. 


All very dangerous and self-destructive. 

If you live in that level of absolutes, well .... dunno. I guess I find human behavior and desires very "shade of grey", so the black and white "a means b, and if b then always a, and if c then never b, unless a" just doesn't work for real life humans. 

We're flawed, all of us. I swear. We're doing our best to be happy and hope we're lucky enough to find someone who shares our happiness. I've got my hands full with that last part there, and if eating some twinkies on a weds makes me happy then I hope my partner will not be ripping them out of my hand "for my own good". That's not a partnership, that's a guardian.


----------



## joswitch

Angel said:


> Too many questions to break up your post. My answers/opinion in dark green text.


http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1533685&postcount=295
I just wanted to say thanks to you Angel for bothering to respond to all those questions of mine... And for doing so in a balanced and reasonable way...

And I agree, that where a feeder and feedee enter into a consenting GAINING relationship, then responsibility is shared... and as far as is physically, humanly possible dealing with any negative consequences should be shared as well...

Yes, I know that the feedee is the one changing their body... Yes, I know that the health risks, if any, are not shared (except perhaps psychosomatically)... but a feeder could/should commit to comprehensive support if negative consequences occur... 

Where the gain is extreme to the point of compromising mobility - this would require a substantial commitment of time, effort and $$money... There is no doubt that people with compromised mobility absolutely need to take and to receive more care, health and otherwise... people who are bed-ridden require 24/7 care... (Pressure sores are no joke, as any nurse will tell you) That's a HUGE commitment...

Personally, it's not an ambition of mine to render anyone immobile / become immobile IRL... If I was in love with a feedee who did cherish such a RL ambition? To the point she felt genuinely unfulfilled in her life without it? And I had the resources to provide the required care? (I certainly don't at the moment)... I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand... It'd certainly be something that'd require a great deal of thought and discussion, though...


----------



## LillyBBBW

AnnMarie said:


> So no non-smokers with smokers, no one should date skydivers or other extreme athletes.
> 
> 
> All very dangerous and self-destructive.
> 
> If you live in that level of absolutes, well .... dunno. I guess I find human behavior and desires very "shade of grey", so the black and white "a means b, and if b then always a, and if c then never b, unless a" just doesn't work for real life humans.
> 
> We're flawed, all of us. I swear. We're doing our best to be happy and hope we're lucky enough to find someone who shares our happiness. I've got my hands full with that last part there, and if eating some twinkies on a weds makes me happy then I hope my partner will not be ripping them out of my hand "for my own good". That's not a partnership, that's a guardian.



I don't want someone ripping stuff out or putting stuff in. It's annoying. These discussions always imply that women are vacant shells to be raised or bred like animals. I don't know who I feel worse for, this woman described or the 300 pound downtrodden 21 year old being manipulated. Seems she's screwed either way.


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> Lets limit the following answer by assuming that the GF in question was already supersized and still wanted to gain (a very different animal from an average sized person who likes to eat a lot and may gain 20 or 30 pounds).



I noticed you have a "this much fat is ok, but that much is not"...
What's the threshold / diagnostic line for you? and why?



> I was actually in this situation about seven years ago. A girl I was dating turned out to be some sort of feedee -- she never talked about gaining weight but was forever sending me out to get ice cream or Taco Bell (I learned where all the 24hr places in Sacramento were). She had been gaining at a fair clip -- about 120lbs in the prior five years. Because it was clear for a variety of reasons that the relationship wouldn't last I never said anything.



Hmmm, I'd've thought that if you were going to split up anyway you'd've found it easier to voice your "concerns" given that you wouldn't really have anything to lose? Or did you just not care enough about her, or about the "issue" at the time??



> The girl in question was still in her twenties at the time but was already having size related issues (like difficulty driving or walking more than a few yards). Had she and I been more compatible in other ways her gaining weight would have become an issue because as shallow as this may seem there's no way I could stand by and watch someone I cared for eat them-self to death (or at least to very limited mobility). I probably would have broken up with her -- a feedee may make up their own mind to gain weight but that doesn't mean I have to stick around to watch.



^Right. So for you the threshold of "too much fat" seems to be mobility issues and/or problems with everyday tasks. And your policy on that is to break up, so as not to be implicated in any responsibility for such. Got that.


Next question(s):
Do you think that the feedee girl in question would be happier pursuing her chosen lifestyle (which she was doing before she met you and probably continued to do so afterwards?) alone, or with a feeder lover?
Which option do you think she would find more fulfilling?
And -
If by sticking to this moral of not "enabling" - this means that such feedees lives MAY be lonelier, less fulfilled and maybe less well cared for than they might have been, hasn't this moral actually led to *greater suffering*, rather than less??


....Also, incidentally: go back through our conversation and substitute FA and BBW for feeder and feedee - and bear in mind that every member of the wider sheeple who subscribes to the majority viewpoint of "fat = death" sees you and your lovely wife in a very similar light, to how you see the feeder/feedees....


----------



## Sandie_Zitkus

I have a lot of medical issues - I'm 50 - I'm over 400 lbs. Would anyone here suggest I should lose weight so I could be healthier? I bet quite a few would, and here on Dimensions I hate that some fat people seem to judge other fat people.

I have permanent back damage so I use a scooter to get around. Shame on me? I should lose weight to be able to walk where I want to go? After living in pain for over 10 years and not being able to go anywhere because of my back pain - my scooter gave me my life back.

Truth is, if I spent all my time trying (because it can't be done for me) to lose weight I would have lost the last 5 years and all the places we've gone and all the things we've done. That would be a great loss to me.

At 50 - I realized I have spent most of my life trying to lose weight. Now, I'm just being happy.  I'm happy just living my life. I take my meds everyday. Everything that needs to be under control is, and I do what I want.

I don't give a rats ass if anyone (that includes people here) thinks I should do something to get healthier. I am doing that - I take my pills everyday and see my Doctor regularly, who BTW never ever mentions my weight.

Go judge someone who gives a shit.  Leave those of us who are happy alone.


----------



## joswitch

AnnMarie said:


> So no non-smokers with smokers, no one should date skydivers or other extreme athletes.
> 
> 
> All very dangerous and self-destructive.
> 
> If you live in that level of absolutes, well .... dunno. I guess I find human behavior and desires very "shade of grey", so the black and white "a means b, and if b then always a, and if c then never b, unless a" just doesn't work for real life humans.
> 
> We're flawed, all of us. I swear. We're doing our best to be happy and hope we're lucky enough to find someone who shares our happiness. I've got my hands full with that last part there, and if eating some twinkies on a weds makes me happy then I hope my partner will not be ripping them out of my hand "for my own good". That's not a partnership, that's a guardian.



^Exactly.
My last but two LTR gf was a smoker when I met her...
I don't like the smell of smoke nor the taste when kissing...
So yeah, I'd make a point to always have chewing gum on hand, (I tend to anyway, bad breath can = turn-off for me... and I do really like to kiss)... And I probably gently mentioned the whyfore once or twice, in a low key way

And given that two people in my family died from smoking (gran and my mum's bloke) I'm pretty down on it healthwise... And I did have again, a gentle talk with her about my concerns...
Oh, and she had to go outside at my place to smoke...

And really what more can / could / should I do?
*She's her own person, it's her body and her choice!*
I don't seek to control her!
(Unless that's her thing... see also BDSM...  but consensual power-exchange does not = true manipulation and control... and BDSM does not = abuse)

She was kinda wanting to give up anyway...
And she did, quite soon into our 3 year relationship...
Despite her so called "friends" (also smokers) trying to sabotage / get her to take it up again!!! (not kidding)
She stayed off the cigarettes for most of our time together...

And took them up again the minute she split with me... 
hell, maybe even a little before (that was a sign I missed right there)...
Her current, chosen bf is a smoker... And clearly they enjoy smoking and binge drinking together...

*By the lights of much of this thread, my ex's "mates" and her current bf would qualify as enablers / abusers... And smoking is definitely worse for your health than pretty much anything else you can do!! BUT you won't hear any of the outrage poured out on them that you will hear directed at feeders!*

Why might that be, do you think?
*Simple - it's still waaaaaaaaaaay more socially acceptable / cool to smoke yourself to death than it is to be fat, like fat people or encourage weightgain.*

Oh, and while there's vast $$$ to be made from smokers, not so much from non-smokers... There's not an equivalent industry for smokers to the fat-hate industry... So there's little money to provide for mass media brainwash...


----------



## BeaBea

joswitch said:


> Yes, I know that the feedee is the one changing their body... Yes, I know that the health risks, if any, are not shared (except perhaps psychosomatically)... but a feeder could/should commit to comprehensive support if negative consequences occur...



I hope you know I think you are a really nice guy so please dont think I am having a go at you here. The problem that I see is simply this, regardless of any talk about who is or should be committed... The commitment is easy for the Feeder to back out of, and for the Feedee, it isn't. 

I'm not judging Feeders/Feedees but for me, there has to be a relatively level playing field for a relationship to work. I dont see any way for this one to be balanced, or at least, not in a way that would make me happy. 

Tracey xx


----------



## mossystate

Just thinking out loud here. Since so much discussed is a minefield, I am gonna be a fan of snagging bits and pieces.

Showing concern...judging...it's done by every human being. The post above ( I am not addressing the person who wrote it ) had me thinking about how many times I see people on Dims show concern when someone is not taking their meds, or doing any number of things a doctor has advised...for or against. Heck, I see plenty of people harp on those who smoke...for their own good, of course. I wouldn't flush everybody who shows concern, just as I wouldn't applaud every person who sports a blind live and let live bumper sticker, as it rarely applies to every situation, and sometimes can certainly be more about a personal agenda.


----------



## imfree

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I have a lot of medical issues - I'm 50 - I'm over 400 lbs. Would anyone here suggest I should lose weight so I could be healthier? I bet quite a few would, and here on Dimensions I hate that some fat people seem to judge other fat people.
> 
> ...snipped...
> At 50 - I realized I have spent most of my life trying to lose weight. Now, I'm just being happy.  I'm happy just living my life. I take my meds everyday. Everything that needs to be under control is, and I do what I want.
> 
> I don't give a rats ass if anyone (that includes people here) thinks I should do something to get healthier. I am doing that - I take my pills everyday and see my Doctor regularly, who BTW never ever mentions my weight.
> 
> Go judge someone who gives a shit.  Leave those of us who are happy alone.



AMEN, great post, Sandie! At 55, I feel the same way. :bow:


----------



## joswitch

BeaBea said:


> I hope you know I think you are a really nice guy so please dont think I am having a go at you here. The problem that I see is simply this, regardless of any talk about who is or should be committed... The commitment is easy for the Feeder to back out of, and for the Feedee, it isn't.
> 
> I'm not judging Feeders/Feedees but for me, there has to be a relatively level playing field for a relationship to work. I dont see any way for this one to be balanced, or at least, not in a way that would make me happy.
> 
> Tracey xx



Yes, you're absolutely right.
On all points there both general and (of course) personal.

Personally, I'd be looking for feedism to be something to "sexyplay" at (without any significant gain IRL) within a relationship with a BBW, (who might / might not be a feedee, but might not wish to gain IRL)...
I've been in LTRs with BBWs where feedism was held in just such a "play" role, and I was very happy in that situation....

My points about that particular level of required commitment in a gaining situation would apply to me in a possible relationship with a feedee* who wanted the RL gain, for herself, anyway regardless of my presence...
That's when these issues would become "live" - for me...

(*Or vice versa... 
That "switch" in my handle covers a lotta ground 
I mainly talk about my dominant sides... but the other sides to me are there... I just haven't ever met anyone e.g. a genuine female feeder in context of this kink-under-discussion - who'd bring them to life...)


----------



## petunia805

SparkGirl said:


> _*You know what, I wish someone had warned me about the health issues, and the fact that someday I will need a painful knee replacement or that I would develop bursitis in my hips and have a hard time walking or that I'd have to be on medications for different issues due to weight. I wish someone had been brave like Felecia and said something to me. Instead I just thought all through my 20's that I was fine. I thought I was just like everyone else, only bigger. Now I have a hard time traveling and long plane rides are torture...Say what you want ladies and gents, and think it will never happen to you, but you just wait. If it has not happened to your own body then you have no idea, and really no business debating it with someone that is actually going through it. It is quite a nasty surprise when it does.
> *_



Thanks for sharing this. Your post struck a personal chord with me. I have been reading the thread with a great deal of interest, and finally decided to contribute _my_ two cents as well. 

I, like SparkGirl, spent a significant amount of my youth thinking that I was "fine, only bigger." In fact, I really didn't start to gain weight at a steady clip until the late teen early twenty years. All the while, I was active, I had a thriving social life, became a parent for the first time, went to school, started a career. All the things that make life fun and fulfilling. I had no health problems whatsoever. So when concerned family, friends, dr's, etc would issue their grave warnings, I blew them off. The invincibility of youth was strong with me. 

But by the time I was 25, many of the things that had been making me happy, were falling by the wayside. I was becoming too fat to fit into life. I was 400 lb's by the time i was 25. I couldn't fit into movie theater seats, restaurant booths, turnstiles, etc. I couldn't fully participate in my daughter's life, because I was too fat to roller skate, ride a bike, a carnival ride, walk too far, etc. I couldn't take her to the beach that was only minutes from my home because i couldn't walk on the sand. It made (and makes) me so sad to know that the decisions I made for myself robbed my child of a fully present parent.

I became depressed. And I self medicated that depression with food. It was, for me, something that I could always count on to make me feel good. And so I continued to gain. Over the next two years, I made it all the way up to 511 lbs. My internal health was still good. But my joints were terribly painful. If I couldn't go and see and do things that I wanted to do at 400 lbs, I REALLY couldn't do those and many others at 511 lbs. And I wanted so badly to be a part of life again. 

I made the painful choice to undergo WLS. A decision I regret wholeheartedly. I paid and continue to pay dearly for that mistake. I nearly died trying to undo the damage that I had done to myself. I did manage to loose 90 lbs as a result of that surgery, however, more important than the weight loss though, was a decision I made afterwards to stop abusing my body with food.


----------



## KHayes666

petunia805 said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Your post struck a personal chord with me. I have been reading the thread with a great deal of interest, and finally decided to contribute _my_ two cents as well.
> 
> I, like SparkGirl, spent a significant amount of my youth thinking that I was "fine, only bigger." In fact, I really didn't start to gain weight at a steady clip until the late teen early twenty years. All the while, I was active, I had a thriving social life, became a parent for the first time, went to school, started a career. All the things that make life fun and fulfilling. I had no health problems whatsoever. So when concerned family, friends, dr's, etc would issue their grave warnings, I blew them off. The invincibility of youth was strong with me.
> 
> But by the time I was 25, many of the things that had been making me happy, were falling by the wayside. I was becoming too fat to fit into life. I was 400 lb's by the time i was 25. I couldn't fit into movie theater seats, restaurant booths, turnstiles, etc. I couldn't fully participate in my daughter's life, because I was too fat to roller skate, ride a bike, a carnival ride, walk too far, etc. I couldn't take her to the beach that was only minutes from my home because i couldn't walk on the sand. It made (and makes) me so sad to know that the decisions I made for myself robbed my child of a fully present parent.
> 
> I became depressed. And I self medicated that depression with food. It was, for me, something that I could always count on to make me feel good. And so I continued to gain. Over the next two years, I made it all the way up to 511 lbs. My internal health was still good. But my joints were terribly painful. If I couldn't go and see and do things that I wanted to do at 400 lbs, I REALLY couldn't do those and many others at 511 lbs. And I wanted so badly to be a part of life again.
> 
> I made the painful choice to undergo WLS. A decision I regret wholeheartedly. I paid and continue to pay dearly for that mistake. I nearly died trying to undo the damage that I had done to myself. I did manage to loose 90 lbs as a result of that surgery, however, more important than the weight loss though, was a decision I made afterwards to stop abusing my body with food.



I really don't know how to comment on this. It sounds like you saved your life by having WLS but you sound like you regret having it.

I want to say something supportive but I don't know the correct words to say.


----------



## petunia805

KHayes666 said:


> I really don't know how to comment on this. It sounds like you saved your life by having WLS but you sound like you regret having it.
> 
> I want to say something supportive but I don't know the correct words to say.


Thanks you for the sentiment. I do appreciate that. But I want to clarify in case anyone else read my post the same way. 

WLS DID NOT save my life. That's not what I was trying to convey at all. The surgery I underwent nearly killed me. And from other stories I have heard, that is no rarity. It was the near death experience of it that was the turning point for me though. I realized that FOR ME the changes in me had to come from inside of me and not through some surgical intervention. I had to come to the understanding that while food made me feel SO GOOD...I was otherwise miserable. I had to develop a healthier attitude towards eating. I realized I couldn't have the life I wanted and also stuff myself everyday with every yummy good thing that came my way. I couldn't fill up the empty parts of me with just food...I needed and wanted more. And don't get me wrong here, I LOVE FOOD. LOVE LOVE LOVE FOOD. In fact, I went to the cupcake store TODAY and bought myself a treat (or two) but all those years ago, it would have been 7 or 8 cupcakes at once instead of one today and one tomorrow. 

I am no proponent of dieting either. Dieting sucks, kills your spirit and ultimately doesn't work. I don't want to be 120 lbs. I just want to enjoy my life. I think fat women like myself are beautiful. I love being soft and giving my children a cushy lap to sit on, and wrapping my big soft feminine arms around my husband. These are things that a woman should be in my mind. For me, I have found a balance at 350ish lbs. I feel good, beautiful and confident at 350. 500 was too much for me because the trade off was too great. Some other woman's perfect number might be higher or lower but for me this works. Had I known what it would be like at 500, I might not have let myself get there. The return trip hasn't been easy, and I think that is a central theme here. It's hard to make an informed decision not knowing what your "magic weight number" is in advance, and once you have passed it, getting back to where you felt good is so painful and difficult. And sometimes for some it seems, impossible.


----------



## imfree

petunia805 said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Your post struck a personal chord with me. I have been reading the thread with a great deal of interest, and finally decided to contribute _my_ two cents as well. ...snipped...
> 
> however, more important than the weight loss though, was a decision I made afterwards to stop abusing my body with food.



I made a similar decision in early October of last
year and may have died by now if I hadn't.:bow:

I still eat very well and I am regaining the 
120lbs I had lost in 2 months, last year,
but it's taking less food and about half as 
much insulin as before. Stasis ulcers on my 
legs have healed and I've been off oxygen, 
completely for almost 2 months.:bow:


----------



## wrestlingguy

A few notes I made while reading this thread.

1. When I was in my late teens to early 20's, I was a habitual user of testosterone, steroids, and a few other supplements that were still in an experimental stage at the time. All the bodybuilding magazines had warnings about the potential dangers of use. I read them all, and ignored them. I was just like everyone else, just a bit more muscular, and bigger. I suffered many of the immediate maladies of using steroids, etc., including acne, hair loss (insert joke here), and countless staph infections from using needles more than once. At 27, I was diagnosed with both testicular cancer, and lymphoma, and while I can't connect the dots and come up with the cause being the drugs I took, I "think" they were at the very least part of the cause. I see little difference with me and my story, and those of both Felicia and SparkGirl.

2. Death is a serious thing. I almost died of cancer, and while I made light of my health at the time, I realized that others could benefit from my mistakes, offering advice to wrestlers and bodybuilders about the perils of drug use, and later as a counselor to cancer patients. While we all have differing opinions here, there's no reason to call anyone out because their experience may have been different than yours. If Felicia's, or SparkGirl's experience can resonate with someone here who is impressionable, then the thread would serve its purpose.

3. We have created a climate in this, and other forums, that encourage the "balls to the wall" method of weight gain, with little regard to long term health. Many of the young ladies in this community have no idea of the long term effect of eating processed foods with countless additives will have on their bodies, especially with idiots behind them who know nothing of what they are doing, except with regard to the sexual gratification they get from it. It's no different than someone who'd encourage me to inject more clenbuterol into my body because my arms look like they are more vascular on it, and they get off on it........F**K the cancer, do it for me!


----------



## TraciJo67

wrestlingguy said:


> If Felicia's, or SparkGirl's experience can resonate with someone here who is impressionable, then the thread would serve its purpose.


 
This.

Unfortunately, Felicia has been put on a time-out. I seldom question the why's of these things anymore. We don't get answers, or if we do, we're told that we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes.

But what I do know is this: Felicia is one of the calmest people that I know. She doesn't engage in battles with other people. She goes out of her way to try to understand why some might feel as they do, and makes a real effort to seek commonalities with others. I flatly do not understand why she was given a time out here. My fear is that it was done because she makes people uncomfortable, and NOT because she's broken any rule.


----------



## tonynyc

wrestlingguy said:


> A few notes I made while reading this thread.
> 
> 1. When I was in my late teens to early 20's, I was a habitual user of testosterone, steroids, and a few other supplements that were still in an experimental stage at the time. All the bodybuilding magazines had warnings about the potential dangers of use. I read them all, and ignored them. I was just like everyone else, just a bit more muscular, and bigger. I suffered many of the immediate maladies of using steroids, etc., including acne, hair loss (insert joke here), and countless staph infections from using needles more than once. At 27, I was diagnosed with both testicular cancer, and lymphoma, and while I can't connect the dots and come up with the cause being the drugs I took, I "think" they were at the very least part of the cause. I see little difference with me and my story, and those of both Felicia and SparkGirl.
> 
> 2. Death is a serious thing. I almost died of cancer, and while I made light of my health at the time, I realized that others could benefit from my mistakes, offering advice to wrestlers and bodybuilders about the perils of drug use, and later as a counselor to cancer patients. While we all have differing opinions here, there's no reason to call anyone out because their experience may have been different than yours. If Felicia's, or SparkGirl's experience can resonate with someone here who is impressionable, then the thread would serve its purpose.
> 
> 3. We have created a climate in this, and other forums, that encourage the "balls to the wall" method of weight gain, with little regard to long term health. Many of the young ladies in this community have no idea of the long term effect of eating processed foods with countless additives will have on their bodies, especially with idiots behind them who know nothing of what they are doing, except with regard to the sexual gratification they get from it. It's no different than someone who'd encourage me to inject more clenbuterol into my body because my arms look like they are more vascular on it, and they get off on it........F**K the cancer, do it for me!




Also when we were in our late teens and early 20's the furthest things on our minds is "mortality".... I can certainly relate to some of the crazy workouts that I when I was younger ...

1. Doing 8 sets 8 reps of weighted dips with 100lbs strapped to the waist 
2. Lateral Raises (with an entire weight stack) ... ( the reward...) rotator cuff surgery 

In many ways the bodybuilding/wrestling/weightlifting world where "Bigger is Better" at any cost certainly relates to the Dims community as well....


----------



## LillyBBBW

TraciJo67 said:


> This.
> 
> Unfortunately, Felicia has been put on a time-out. I seldom question the why's of these things anymore. We don't get answers, or if we do, we're told that we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes.
> 
> But what I do know is this: Felicia is one of the calmest people that I know. She doesn't engage in battles with other people. She goes out of her way to try to understand why some might feel as they do, and makes a real effort to seek commonalities with others. I flatly do not understand why she was given a time out here. My fear is that it was done because she makes people uncomfortable, and NOT because she's broken any rule.



I went back to look at the post to be sure, but it has been deleted and all posts that refer to it. I believe within her last post she referred to things that had been discussed in the SS forum. That is strictly against the rules and if you do so, *phew*, out you go no matter how nice you are or innocent it was.


----------



## TraciJo67

LillyBBBW said:


> I went back to look at the post to be sure, but it has been deleted and all posts that refer to it. I believe within her last post she referred to things that had been discussed in the SS forum. That is strictly against the rules and if you do so, *phew*, out you go no matter how nice you are or innocent it was.


 
I saw the post, Lilly. It said nothing that hasn't already been said, many dozens of times, over and over again elsewhere. She may have referred to the SS forum, but she certainly gave no specifics about discussions there, aside from referring to the reason WHY the SS forum was created in the first place. There isn't a regular here who didn't already know that. 

Aside from which, she had apparently been warned to cut back on her "anti FA" posts. I do not understand how anyone could think that Felicia is anti-FA, but that is open to interpretation. However, I have never observed her coming even close to breaking any of the published rules, and I do see most of what she posts (I make it a point to do so, since I think she creates a lot of thoughtful, thought-provoking threads). I doubt that there's a member here who would actually believe that Felicia personally attacked anyone.


----------



## The Orange Mage

But remember, we don't have a clue what's going on. We don't see everything that happens.


----------



## BeaBea

TraciJo67 said:


> I doubt that there's a member here who would actually believe that Felicia personally attacked anyone.



Umm, heres one. I felt attacked. I thought the post was judgmental, and finger waggingly patronising to the point of being offensive. The OP said that maybe she was over-sensitive but it sure didn't feel that when when I was reading her post. 

Tracey


----------



## Webmaster

Super received a personal warning from me. It went unanswered and unheeded. Hence the timeout.



TraciJo67 said:


> I saw the post, Lilly. It said nothing that hasn't already been said, many dozens of times, over and over again elsewhere. She may have referred to the SS forum, but she certainly gave no specifics about discussions there, aside from referring to the reason WHY the SS forum was created in the first place. There isn't a regular here who didn't already know that.
> 
> Aside from which, she had apparently been warned to cut back on her "anti FA" posts. I do not understand how anyone could think that Felicia is anti-FA, but that is open to interpretation. However, I have never observed her coming even close to breaking any of the published rules, and I do see most of what she posts (I make it a point to do so, since I think she creates a lot of thoughtful, thought-provoking threads). I doubt that there's a member here who would actually believe that Felicia personally attacked anyone.


----------



## LillyBBBW

TraciJo67 said:


> I saw the post, Lilly. It said nothing that hasn't already been said, many dozens of times, over and over again elsewhere. She may have referred to the SS forum, but she certainly gave no specifics about discussions there, aside from referring to the reason WHY the SS forum was created in the first place. There isn't a regular here who didn't already know that.
> 
> Aside from which, she had apparently been warned to cut back on her "anti FA" posts. I do not understand how anyone could think that Felicia is anti-FA, but that is open to interpretation. However, I have never observed her coming even close to breaking any of the published rules, and I do see most of what she posts (I make it a point to do so, since I think she creates a lot of thoughtful, thought-provoking threads). I doubt that there's a member here who would actually believe that Felicia personally attacked anyone.



Unfortunately my hands are tied from being able to comment any further about this. I will just say that *I* was offended from her very first post. Yes I've met her personally and I can vouch for her and say that she's very sweet in person however that post was just about the worst thing I've ever seen. I've already said why and I'm not sorry she's on timeout. The hook should have been brought out days ago in my opinion. I'm shocked that even after all this time and explanation people are still looking around asking us to explain again why we're so over sensitive about being called porn faces and being held up as living archives of failure. It's absurd to keep at this. If nobody gets it then they won't.


----------



## Szombathy

LillyBBBW said:


> Unfortunately my hands are tied from being able to comment any further about this. I will just say that *I* was offended from her very first post. Yes I've met her personally and I can vouch for her and say that she's very sweet in person however that post was just about the worst thing I've ever seen. I've already said why and I'm not sorry she's on timeout. The hook should have been brought out days ago in my opinion. I'm shocked that even after all this time and explanation people are still looking around asking us to explain again why we're so over sensitive about being called porn faces and being held up as living archives of failure. It's absurd to keep at this. If nobody gets it then they won't.



I'm not normally interested in these sorts of questions about internal politics on these boards, but I think that this thread, in general, has been one of the most sustained, frank, and helpful dialogues on a really important topic that I've seen on these boards. I wonder if that would have been possible without SuperO (who probably had greater credibility on this subject than lot of people might have) taking a probably intentionally provocative position in her initial post.


----------



## LillyBBBW

Szombathy said:


> I'm not normally interested in the sort of questions about internal politics on these boards, but I think that this thread, in general, has been one of the most sustained, frank, and helpful dialogues on a really important topic that I've seen on these boards. I wonder if that would have been possible without SuperO (who probably had greater credibility on this subject with a lot of people might have) taking a probably intentionally provocative position in her initial post.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the topic. I've actually enjoyed the thread, participated in it even. I've Repped so many thoughtful posts in here I don't think I'll be able to Rep anybody again till 2013. Does this mean I'm supposed to be grateful and sit here smiling about the stuff that I didn't like? No. Go ahead and enjoy the thread but I reserve the right to be outraged at the outrageous.


----------



## Smushygirl

LillyBBBW said:


> I was going to end it here because it appears Supero is on timeout and can't respond. Most of what I have to say is critical of her choice to begin this thread the way she did and I feel it's unfair to do so at this juncture. I'm not arguing the merits of feederism here at all. It's none of my business either. My issue is that I think Supero's personal truth-crusade hurt some people here. *These are REAL people here, not just objects to be used and held up for personal gratification, sexual or otherwise. * This is why the supersized forum is private. A few times she waved it away as if it was meaningless to her. Personal struggles weren't as important as everyone's right to talk about them, how awful it is and how they will never let themselves get that way. Does it occur to anyone that most of the people who DO sturggle with these things were *never* feedees? I realize she was trying to begin a dialogue but why not start it on the health board and not root it in the misery of people who didn't want to die and struggled daily to live? This was an awful, awful thread. I couldn't quite articulate why it upset me so before. I still can't really, I'm overwhelmed. If it's not about how lazy and careless we are for letting this happen to us.... being used feels awful even if it's for a seemingly noble purpose.
> 
> ETA: If people need to hear about super sized struggles then let her tell her own. Tell the ones you had if you like. The way she started this thread though was terrible.



I love you Lilly, but this response is making my head spin off! Felecia asked a few questions out of concern that very few answered. Most of the thread is off the rails. No one here demanded to hear about super sized struggles either. 

The part I bolded is really incredulous! The pay site is flourishing! Don't have a problem with that, right?

I only replied to Misty that the reason there seems to be lots of super sized ladies with very little health problems is because the super sized ladies have a private forum to discuss those issues if they want to. They do not have to do it in public. 

Are we grown women or what?


----------



## Angel

LillyBBBW said:


> I'm shocked that even after all this time and explanation people are still looking around asking us to explain again why we're so over sensitive about being called porn faces and being held up as living archives of failure. It's absurd to keep at this. If nobody gets it then they won't.



I guess why I didn't take the first post as being so offensive is because I'm way fatter than 400 pounds and time after time after time I have read posts here where women my size are viewed as being too fat. I've been involved in some very heated exchanges/threads in the past. But it's acceptable here to say that women over 500, or 600, or 700 are too fat. No one even bats an eye when they read those posts stating such, except for those of us who fall into that category. It's OK to think that *we* are too fat, and it is acceptable to tell *us* that we should be ashamed for letting ourselves get so fat, though. After a while you realize that some people will always think as they do, that they will always be looking down their nose at someone, and that nothing anyone says is going to change their judgemental outlook, even here at Dimensions. (not meaning SuperO here)


and if I want a cupcake, I'm going to eat a cupcake or a cookie, and it sure won't be for "effect". It will be because I _want_ that cupcake or that cookie. :eat2:


----------



## LillyBBBW

Angel said:


> I guess why I didn't take the first post as being so offensive is because I'm way fatter than 400 pounds and time after time after time I have read posts here where women my size are viewed as being too fat. I've been involved in some very heated exchanges/threads in the past. But it's acceptable here to say that women over 500, or 600, or 700 are too fat. No one even bats an eye when they read those posts stating such, except for those of us who fall into that category. It's OK to think that *we* are too fat, and it is acceptable to tell *us* that we should be ashamed for letting ourselves get so fat, though. After a while you realize that some people will always think as they do, that they will always be looking down their nose at someone, and that nothing anyone says is going to change their judgemental outlook, even here at Dimensions. (not meaning SuperO here)
> 
> 
> and if I want a cupcake, I'm going to eat a cupcake or a cookie, and it sure won't be for "effect". It will be because I _want_ that cupcake or that cookie. :eat2:



It has really been hard for me to articulate what made me so angry about that post. It wasn't just that she picked the number 400. Had she simply picked some arbitrary number like 800 or something I honestly would have just mumbled somethng about how you don't know how someone got that way or what their measure of health is and would have been satisfied. In fact, I tried to do just that while grinding my teeth trying not to type the words 'fucking fucking fuck!' I was nagged by that post and finally lost it when she berated supersized women for cherishing their privacy about their personal struggles. That was the last straw. She made this thread and the people who chose to participate posted. She went too far when she used the term 'porn faces.' I couldn't stand it anymore. She wanted a reaction, I gave her one.


----------



## bigmac

BeaBea said:


> I genuinely dont understand how that can work in this context. If my date and I decide to go out for dinner is he supporting and encouraging me to gain weight? Your argument would only make sense if it were possible to actually give up food completely. There are plenty of folk who would look at me and believe from my size that I was just a single calorie away from death. They would question someones motives for supporting/encouraging my decision to eat undressed lettuce or for having a slice of lemon in my still water.
> 
> Tracey
> 
> PS - Tried really hard to avoid the 'giving up food, cold turkey' jokes here. How did I do?



The application of the no support or encouragement rule obviously doesn't mean no eating. What it does mean is not encouraging your friend/partner to go back to the buffet for that fifth or six plate. It means not encouraging her to eat the entire box of doughnuts. It means not basing sexual attraction on the number of pounds gained.

My wife (Petunia805) gave a good example -- she went to the cupcake store (who knew there were such things) and got two fancy cupcakes today (one for today one for tomorrow) -- not a problem. However, when her eating and gaining was out of control she would have bought several times more cupcake and eaten them all at once.


----------



## bigmac

joswitch said:


> ...
> 
> Yes, I know that the feedee is the one changing their body... Yes, I know that the health risks, if any, are not shared (except perhaps psychosomatically)... but a feeder could/should commit to comprehensive support if negative consequences occur...
> 
> Where the gain is extreme to the point of compromising mobility - this would require a substantial commitment of time, effort and $$money... There is no doubt that people with compromised mobility absolutely need to take and to receive more care, health and otherwise... people who are bed-ridden require 24/7 care... (Pressure sores are no joke, as any nurse will tell you) That's a HUGE commitment...



Yes a HUGE commitment indeed. A commitment that the feeder can walk away from at will. The feedee is stuck (often literally) with a greatly compromised body that in all likelihood cannot be returned to anything near its prefeeder condition. When the feedee is fattened to the extent that mobility is compromised any semblance of informed consent and voluntary action is lost. The feedee becomes totally dependent while the feeder can walkaway at anytime. The power balance becomes totally one sided.

Realistically once a feeder achieves his goal of an immobile partner and the day to day realities of life with a dependent SSBBW become apparent green pastures will beckon.


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## thatgirl08

I really fucking despise the assertion that every young fat girl on here is being taken advantage of. It's sexist and it's ageist, period. I'm sick of being written off as not knowing any better or being too weak (because of course I'm socially, emotionally & mentally crippled from being fat my entire life) to fight off the dozens of horny feeders waiting to pounce on me and manipulate me to immobility. Because clearly I can't support myself and I can't defend myself.. I'm easy to take advantage of, I can't think for myself, I'm just so sad and so lonely and so desperate that any guy with a dick and a cupcake is good in my book.

EDIT: And for the record, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm active in the fetish side of the community.. it's about the fact that I can't go anywhere on this site without someone harping on the dangers of feederism because all of us impressionable little girls might be influenced.


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## Wagimawr

Consider yourself repped.

If it were that easy there'd be a lot more young fat girls and they'd all be a whole lot fatter, with all the "gain gain gain" that goes on around here (which I will OPENLY admit to being a part of).


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

Angel said:


> I guess why I didn't take the first post as being so offensive is because I'm way fatter than 400 pounds and time after time after time I have read posts here where women my size are viewed as being too fat. I've been involved in some very heated exchanges/threads in the past. But it's acceptable here to say that women over 500, or 600, or 700 are too fat. No one even bats an eye when they read those posts stating such, except for those of us who fall into that category. It's OK to think that *we* are too fat, and it is acceptable to tell *us* that we should be ashamed for letting ourselves get so fat, though. After a while you realize that some people will always think as they do, that they will always be looking down their nose at someone, and that nothing anyone says is going to change their judgemental outlook, even here at Dimensions. (not meaning SuperO here)
> 
> 
> and if I want a cupcake, I'm going to eat a cupcake or a cookie, and it sure won't be for "effect". It will be because I _want_ that cupcake or that cookie. :eat2:


Agreed. I always seem to be over the "acceptable" supersize weight, somehow.


----------



## Paquito

thatgirl08 said:


> I really fucking despise the assertion that every young fat girl on here is being taken advantage of. It's sexist and it's ageist, period. I'm sick of being written off as not knowing any better or being too weak (because of course I'm socially, emotionally & mentally crippled from being fat my entire life) to fight off the dozens of horny feeders waiting to pounce on me and manipulate me to immobility. Because clearly I can't support myself and I can't defend myself.. I'm easy to take advantage of, I can't think for myself, I'm just so sad and so lonely and so desperate that any guy with a dick and a cupcake is good in my book.
> 
> EDIT: And for the record, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm active in the fetish side of the community.. it's about the fact that I can't go anywhere on this site without someone harping on the dangers of feederism because all of us impressionable little girls might be influenced.



As a gainer, I feel the same way.


----------



## petunia805

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Agreed. I always seem to be over the "acceptable" supersize weight, somehow.



Is there a specific number of lbs that is universally "too much"? I don't think so. Surely that is something that can only be determined by the individual in question. I've met women who weight FAR less than I do, and their health and quality of life is already compromised. But I've also met women larger than I ever was who lead remarkably fulfilling lives. The only thing any one of us can know is what works for each of us.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

Oh, I fully agree. I just agree with Angel that sometimes it feels like the weight below me is acceptable for many things and many reasons, but mine is just.... ohhhh, that's really too far. I know that must be how most women feel, though. they're either too small or too large, but never just right. lol. The eternal conundrum.


----------



## BeaBea

petunia805 said:


> Is there a specific number of lbs that is universally "too much"? I don't think so. Surely that is something that can only be determined by the individual in question. I've met women who weight FAR less than I do, and their health and quality of life is already compromised. But I've also met women larger than I ever was who lead remarkably fulfilling lives. The only thing any one of us can know is what works for each of us.



I think that was the bone of contention right there! Of course the individual themselves should decide how much is too much (or indeed, how much is not enough) but the OP decided to choose for us. She stated a weight limit and stated an age and made no allowance at all for individual choice. She also chose to set the definition of what constitutes a 'fulfilling' life. 

I have to justify my life and my choices frequently - but then I work as an advocate for plus sized people and deliver seminars on the subject to the Medical professions. I fully expect to meet prejudice and judgment and I happily enter the lions den to provoke it. I never expected to see such broad condemnation here on this board though. I am glad that some people weren't offended by the tone of the OP but I'm damn sure not going to apologise for the fact that I was.

Tracey


----------



## Ash

thatgirl08 said:


> I really fucking despise the assertion that every young fat girl on here is being taken advantage of. It's sexist and it's ageist, period. I'm sick of being written off as not knowing any better or being too weak (because of course I'm socially, emotionally & mentally crippled from being fat my entire life) to fight off the dozens of horny feeders waiting to pounce on me and manipulate me to immobility. Because clearly I can't support myself and I can't defend myself.. I'm easy to take advantage of, I can't think for myself, I'm just so sad and so lonely and so desperate that any guy with a dick and a cupcake is good in my book.
> 
> EDIT: And for the record, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm active in the fetish side of the community.. it's about the fact that I can't go anywhere on this site without someone harping on the dangers of feederism because all of us impressionable little girls might be influenced.



This. 

(The rest isn't a response to thatgirl but a general one for the thread.)

Also, I was clearly one of the most vocal about the offensiveness of the original post, but I did answer her question in the most honest way I could in my very first post in this thread. I said that it's none of her business or my business what other people do with their bodies. That's how I feel. That's my real answer. 

And further, my problem with the original post has little to do with the arbitrary weight mentioned. My problem with it is that she drew comparisons to her own behavior implying that she was fat in the "right" way and the women she was talking about were fat in some "wrong" way. I've explained that, and I think Felecia heard me.


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> Yes a HUGE commitment indeed. A commitment that the feeder can walk away from at will. The feedee is stuck (often literally) with a greatly compromised body that in all likelihood cannot be returned to anything near its prefeeder condition. When the feedee is fattened to the extent that mobility is compromised any semblance of informed consent and voluntary action is lost. The feedee becomes totally dependent while the feeder can walkaway at anytime. The power balance becomes totally one sided.


True in a physical sense, yes.
Not necessarily true emotionally, I'd guess...
Feeders can fall in love too, you know....


> Realistically once a feeder achieves his goal of an immobile partner and the day to day realities of life with a dependent SSBBW become apparent green pastures will beckon.



Really? That is the standard urban myth boilerplate assumption, but - how would you know what any one feeder's goals/desires/loves are??


----------



## Never2fat4me

A lot of people (not just Ashley, but her post made me think of this) have expressed the sentiment that "it's my body, I can do what I want with it and it is none of your business what I do." 

First off, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Regardless of what your view is on whether someone is "too fat," the decision on whether they should lose weight is theirs alone, and they should not be scorned or made to feel guilty for who they are.

But the question could become more complex if you live in a country with public medicare. It could be argued that while you do have a general right to be as fat as you want regardless of any health complications that may ensue, someone else has the right to tell you that you should lose weight if you are going to reach into their pocket (through taxes) to pay for the resulting medical bills. People say this about smokers, for example, and use it as justification for high taxes on cigarettes (i.e., it helps fund the public medical insurance system).

Have Dim members living in countries with public, universal medicare had any experience with critics who use this line of argument? How do you respond? 

I have seen it, and while I disagree with the line of reasoning for fat people, I am not sure how to come up with a really good argument against it. I have to be honest and say that I feel that way when it comes to smokers - i.e., you want to smoke, don't ask me to pay for your lung cancer treatments. The one way I can justify the difference to myself is that smoking is voluntary while eating and genetics aren't. But I am not sure that is totally convincing.

Chris


----------



## joswitch

Never2fat4me said:


> A lot of people (not just Ashley, but her post made me think of this) have expressed the sentiment that "it's my body, I can do what I want with it and it is none of your business what I do."
> 
> First off, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Regardless of what your view is on whether someone is "too fat," the decision on whether they should lose weight is theirs alone, and they should not be scorned or made to feel guilty for who they are.
> 
> But the question could become more complex if you live in a country with public medicare. It could be argued that while you do have a general right to be as fat as you want regardless of any health complications that may ensue, someone else has the right to tell you that you should lose weight if you are going to reach into their pocket (through taxes) to pay for the resulting medical bills. People say this about smokers, for example, and use it as justification for high taxes on cigarettes (i.e., it helps fund the public medical insurance system).
> 
> Have Dim members living in countries with public, universal medicare had any experience with critics who use this line of argument? How do you respond?
> 
> I have seen it, and while I disagree with the line of reasoning for fat people, I am not sure how to come up with a really good argument against it. I have to be honest and say that I feel that way when it comes to smokers - i.e., you want to smoke, don't ask me to pay for your lung cancer treatments. The one way I can justify the difference to myself is that smoking is voluntary while eating and genetics aren't. But I am not sure that is totally convincing.
> 
> Chris



Fat people have to pay their taxes too.
So do smokers*.
So do drinkers*.
Therefore they are all entitled to NHS healthcare.
That's all there is too it.
And I live in UK.

*that you are worried about this indicates you've been taken in by BS propoganda. No fat does not = as dangerous as smoking or booze, epidemiologically. Nowhere near. Go look at the real data, not the gov't / industry spin. I did.


----------



## LillyBBBW

thatgirl08 said:


> I really fucking despise the assertion that every young fat girl on here is being taken advantage of. It's sexist and it's ageist, period. I'm sick of being written off as not knowing any better or being too weak (because of course I'm socially, emotionally & mentally crippled from being fat my entire life) to fight off the dozens of horny feeders waiting to pounce on me and manipulate me to immobility. Because clearly I can't support myself and I can't defend myself.. I'm easy to take advantage of, I can't think for myself, I'm just so sad and so lonely and so desperate that any guy with a dick and a cupcake is good in my book.
> 
> EDIT: And for the record, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm active in the fetish side of the community.. it's about the fact that I can't go anywhere on this site without someone harping on the dangers of feederism because all of us impressionable little girls might be influenced.



It struck me in a similar way even though I'm aware that there have been a few incidents here and there where women abandoned good sense to follow a wide eyed fella who said GAIN GAIN GAIN. I'm not out to belittle that or make anyone feel badly about this. What I do resent is the kneejerk reaction to point at the paysite board or a cupcake eating feedee and saying, "This is your fualt." Is this really empowering? It's demoralizing to us, them, men, EVERYBODY. If a man asks you to gain to 1000 pounds, you should then ask him to lie down under this bus and let you roll back and fourth over his tremoring body. Why do these conversations always go any further than this and target women? Stupid men (and women, of course. Don't want to ignore the BHMs here) who are disconnected from reality exist all over the place. It's especially troubling in the case of a feeder but once again, with feeling, *the woman is not to blame.* The OTHER woman with the cupcake t shirt is not to blame. The super sized woman who doesn't want to tell people about her private issues - not to blame. Men: not to blame. There's only one person who deserves to be under that bus.


----------



## BeaBea

Never2fat4me said:


> Have Dim members living in countries with public, universal medicare had any experience with critics who use this line of argument? How do you respond?



A dear friend of mine who is resolutely anti-fat was firmly of the opinion that my lifestyle choices shouldn't impact on the finances of the NHS system. When he broke his leg ski-ing however it suddenly dawned on him that every one of us makes decisions every day that affect our health. 

The system is set up to cover EVERYONE - whether your lifestyle choices lead you to drink, smoke, have children, pursue infertility treatment, break your leg ski-ing or are fat. Our media here is shocking in its condemnation of fat people but universal health care is a right that is guaranteed to criminals and drug addicts so its hard for them to argue that law abiding, tax paying fatties shouldn't also be covered.

Tracey


----------



## Never2fat4me

joswitch said:


> *that you are worried about this indicates you've been taken in by BS propoganda. No fat does not = as dangerous as smoking or booze, epidemiologically. Nowhere near. Go look at the real data, not the gov't / industry spin. I did.



Joswich: Dangerous to jump to conclusions or to assume. To do the latter, as the saying goes, makes an ass out of you and me.

Chris


----------



## LillyBBBW

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Agreed. I always seem to be over the "acceptable" supersize weight, somehow.



I usually consider myself advocating in a generalized fashion for all super sized people when I get my undies in a bunch. As to people saying things about 500 or 600 pound women I have to say, I honestly give pause over addressing such posts. The reason being, I'm not at that weight nor have I ever been. I'm reluctant to put myself in a position where I'm speaking specifically on behalf of something I don't know anything about. As to being 400, I can directly address that, often with a disclaimer that describes where I'm at and what my particular experiences have been. I choose to stay out of the other conversations but it's not because I'm sitting here thinking, "Oh yeah. 400 is fat but 500 is like... a billiondy and stuff." My view of fatness is linear but I know I can't speak on behalf of the expereinces of people who are 180 pounds or 800 pounds. My posts are the same as anyone else's. "I know someone who was 638 pounds who could/couldn't/didn't......." But I can't speak for or against, I can only nod understanding when someone tells their story.


----------



## Never2fat4me

BeaBea said:


> A dear friend of mine who is resolutely anti-fat was firmly of the opinion that my lifestyle choices shouldn't impact on the finances of the NHS system. When he broke his leg ski-ing however it suddenly dawned on him that every one of us makes decisions every day that affect our health.
> 
> The system is set up to cover EVERYONE - whether your lifestyle choices lead you to drink, smoke, have children, pursue infertility treatment, break your leg ski-ing or are fat. Our media here is shocking in its condemnation of fat people but universal health care is a right that is guaranteed to criminals and drug addicts so its hard for them to argue that law abiding, tax paying fatties shouldn't also be covered.
> 
> Tracey



This is true - for the moment. With healthcare costs threatening to bankrupt many Canadian provinces - I was at a meeting recently where a senior Ontario bureaucrat suggested there could one day be just two departments, Finance and Health, only partially in jest - there will be pressure to make cuts. Charging for services based on risk (perceived or not) is one potential solution. So we need to be prepared!

Chris


----------



## Jes

Never2fat4me said:


> But the question could become more complex if you live in a country with public medicare. It could be argued that while you do have a general right to be as fat as you want regardless of any health complications that may ensue, someone else has the right to tell you that you should lose weight if you are going to reach into their pocket (through taxes) to pay for the resulting medical bills.



You might need to change your username to: Sometimes2Fat4MyWallet

*wink*


----------



## snuggletiger

You should be anything you want to be. If people don't like who you are. Screw them those are the kind of people not worth knowing.


----------



## Weeze

Jes said:


> You might need to change your username to: Sometimes2Fat4MyWallet
> 
> *wink*



I'm mad that I can't rep you, because I chuckled. 

The point that I keep trying to make here and on other fat-related venues, is that we're all fat. Some of us are fatter than others... but we're still all fat. We're all fat for a reason, whether it's feederism, hormone problems, eating disorders, whatever. You can't help being interested in feederism, but you can abstain from it. You can't change the fact that you're genetically predisposed to hormone problems, but you can see a doctor and get medication. You can't fool your brain into not thinking you have an eating problem (because God knows I've tried), but you *can* seek help. However, all those things take a lot of time and effort, and we need something to do in the interim. I can't waste time hiding and hating myself while I wait to get over a fetish, to lose weight, to learn to be OK with my body. I have to love myself the way I am NOW, which is why I come to Dimensions. People find me attractive the way I am, my opinions are not thrown out by someone saying "shut up fatass", and all the other girls shop at the same clothing stores I do. We're all so alike, and it is SO FRUSTRATING to read one or two people putting down the entire group. You're just like me, whether or not you like to think so.


----------



## bigmac

thatgirl08 said:


> I really fucking despise the assertion that every young fat girl on here is being taken advantage of. It's sexist and it's ageist, period. I'm sick of being written off as not knowing any better or being too weak (because of course I'm socially, emotionally & mentally crippled from being fat my entire life) to fight off the dozens of horny feeders waiting to pounce on me and manipulate me to immobility. Because clearly I can't support myself and I can't defend myself.. I'm easy to take advantage of, I can't think for myself, I'm just so sad and so lonely and so desperate that any guy with a dick and a cupcake is good in my book.
> 
> EDIT: And for the record, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm active in the fetish side of the community.. it's about the fact that I can't go anywhere on this site without someone harping on the dangers of feederism because all of us impressionable little girls might be influenced.



Feeders taking advantage of naive fat girls is just the most egregious example of what the OP and I are worried about. For me the overall encouragement of gaining is just as troublesome. The paysite board is full of posts by young women bragging about how much weight they've gained -- in some cases hundreds of pounds. They are then cheered on by numerous supports both male and female. I'm sure that most of these ladies are indeed gaining voluntarily. However, that doesn't change the fact that they are irreversibly altering their bodies in ways that will have long-term consequences.

Twenty years from now -- when their web modeling days are over -- these women will be left living with the consequences of their intentional gaining. Meanwhile the people who encouraged them will have moved on and will be encouraging the next generation. 

Felicia is, in my opinion, this board's Cassandra -- she has the the gift of prophecy but people refuse to believe her -- she possesses a deep understanding but is powerlessness nonetheless -- classic tragedy.


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> Feeders taking advantage of naive fat girls is just the most egregious example of what the OP and I are worried about. For me the overall encouragement of gaining is just as troublesome. The paysite board is full of posts by young women bragging about how much weight they've gained -- in some cases hundreds of pounds. They are then cheered on by numerous supports both male and female. I'm sure that most of these ladies are indeed gaining voluntarily. However, that doesn't change the fact that they are irreversibly altering their bodies in ways that will have long-term consequences.
> 
> Twenty years from now -- when their web modeling days are over -- these women will be left living with the consequences of their intentional gaining. Meanwhile the people who encouraged them will have moved on and will be encouraging the next generation.
> 
> Felicia is, in my opinion, this board's Cassandra -- she has the the gift of prophecy but people refuse to believe her -- she possesses a deep understanding but is powerlessness nonetheless -- classic tragedy.



OK, let's get serious here:
Internet encouragement - 
do you really think that people do ANYthing that they would not otherwise have done just because some randoms on the internet said DOOOO ITT!
Seriously??
Do you really, honestly think people are that vapid and easily swayed??
:doh:


----------



## mossystate

Oh, this minefield.

I think it is as silly to think that every young fat woman will go into Stepford mode when she logs onto her computer, as it is to think that nobody ever gets caught up in something to a degree/way that they might not have if they had not been encouraged...by whatever...whomever. People can and do get caught up.

:doh:

Madison Ave seems to knows this. There is no judgement...but don't act like human beings...all of us...couldn't use a little information every now and then. Not talking about finger wagging. Like I said, this thread is a minefield...started out that way, and it just keeps blowing bits of shrapnel. Lots of people getting hit...lots of people saying some  stuff.


----------



## EtobicokeFA

bigmac said:


> Feeders taking advantage of naive fat girls is just the most egregious example of what the OP and I are worried about. For me the overall encouragement of gaining is just as troublesome. The paysite board is full of posts by young women bragging about how much weight they've gained -- in some cases hundreds of pounds. They are then cheered on by numerous supports both male and female. I'm sure that most of these ladies are indeed gaining voluntarily. However, that doesn't change the fact that they are irreversibly altering their bodies in ways that will have long-term consequences.
> 
> Twenty years from now -- when their web modeling days are over -- these women will be left living with the consequences of their intentional gaining. Meanwhile the people who encouraged them will have moved on and will be encouraging the next generation.
> 
> Felicia is, in my opinion, this board's Cassandra -- she has the the gift of prophecy but people refuse to believe her -- she possesses a deep understanding but is powerlessness nonetheless -- classic tragedy.



So, we came back to this again. We are all called naive from not being in overweight and not being in a perpetual dieting mode. 

We are all reminded of the consequences of our weight, even if we gain just a few pounds. 

Just because they made a choice that you did not made does not make them naive.


----------



## Paquito

bigmac said:


> Feeders taking advantage of naive fat girls is just the most egregious example of what the OP and I are worried about. For me the overall encouragement of gaining is just as troublesome. The paysite board is full of posts by young women bragging about how much weight they've gained -- in some cases hundreds of pounds. They are then cheered on by numerous supports both male and female. I'm sure that most of these ladies are indeed gaining voluntarily. However, that doesn't change the fact that they are irreversibly altering their bodies in ways that will have long-term consequences.
> 
> Twenty years from now -- when their web modeling days are over -- these women will be left living with the consequences of their intentional gaining. Meanwhile the people who encouraged them will have moved on and will be encouraging the next generation.
> 
> Felicia is, in my opinion, this board's Cassandra -- she has the the gift of prophecy but people refuse to believe her -- she possesses a deep understanding but is powerlessness nonetheless -- classic tragedy.



This is so fucking ridiculous. If my experience is anything like paysite girls, then the online attention is just a by product of the community. *I* don't do it for encouragers. I do it for me. If others like it then that's cool, but it's not about everyone else's opinions. I do it because I want to, and everyone else can fuck off.

Fuck.


----------



## LillyBBBW

bigmac said:


> Feeders taking advantage of naive fat girls is just the most egregious example of what the OP and I are worried about. For me the overall encouragement of gaining is just as troublesome. The paysite board is full of posts by young women bragging about how much weight they've gained -- in some cases hundreds of pounds. They are then cheered on by numerous supports both male and female. I'm sure that most of these ladies are indeed gaining voluntarily. However, that doesn't change the fact that they are irreversibly altering their bodies in ways that will have long-term consequences.
> 
> Twenty years from now -- when their web modeling days are over -- these women will be left living with the consequences of their intentional gaining. Meanwhile the people who encouraged them will have moved on and will be encouraging the next generation.
> 
> Felicia is, in my opinion, this board's Cassandra -- she has the the gift of prophecy but people refuse to believe her -- she possesses a deep understanding but is powerlessness nonetheless -- classic tragedy.



Bigmac, please come down from there. This issue is more complex than to just keep screaming like that. You and Cassandra aren't going to convince anybody of anything because it simply doesn't work that way. You've completely oversimplified all of this. The amount of people who fit your profile is small. I mean *really* small. I'm not saying that it isn't worth it to try to say something but the amount of preaching and grandstanding here is over the top. I chuckled and was entertained for a minute but I think in the long run you're harming yourself and missing out on a more effective way to try to help the people who need it.


----------



## bigmac

joswitch said:


> OK, let's get serious here:
> Internet encouragement -
> do you really think that people do ANYthing that they would not otherwise have done just because some randoms on the internet said DOOOO ITT!
> Seriously??
> Do you really, honestly think people are that vapid and easily swayed??
> :doh:



Its just an obvious public example of the fact that elements of this community are: 1) very pro weight gain, and 2) these elements are not being realistic about the consequences of intentionally gaining large amounts of weight.

I've been around long enough -- talked to enough people -- been to enough events -- and seen enough interactions with my own eyes to know that there's a lot of encouragement of gaining going on out there and very little concern for the consequences. (I'm talking about the wider BBW/FA community not just Dimensions.)


----------



## MizzSnakeBite

Speaking of death, this thread needs to die. Seriously.

This is an important topic, and could be an important discussion, but I just don't think people are wanting to, or aren't ready for, this type of discussion. It's a hard discussion to have with family and close friends, and to me, it's an almost impossible discussion to have with virtual strangers.

It's a dicey topic at best, and right now, we're all so far from the original topic. We're just snowballing here...


----------



## joswitch

bigmac said:


> Its just an obvious public example of the fact that elements of this community are: 1) very pro weight gain, and 2) these elements are not being realistic about the consequences of intentionally gaining large amounts of weight.
> 
> I've been around long enough -- talked to enough people -- been to enough events -- and seen enough interactions with my own eyes to know that there's a lot of encouragement of gaining going on out there and very little concern for the consequences. (I'm talking about the wider BBW/FA community not just Dimensions.)



You dodged the point - which is: do you seriously imagine that internet encouragement will lead people to do major stuff to themselves they would not do anyway?? There are a number of gainers in this thread telling you it doesn't... 

Instead of addressing that you just restated your observation of encouragement, which no-one disputes exists... I'm beginning to think your persistence on this has a lot more to do with your personal distaste for encouragement, than for the actual effects (or not) on the people you say you're worried for....


----------



## petunia805

bigmac said:


> Its just an obvious public example of the fact that elements of this community are: 1) very pro weight gain, and 2) these elements are not being realistic about the consequences of intentionally gaining large amounts of weight.
> 
> I've been around long enough -- talked to enough people -- been to enough events -- and seen enough interactions with my own eyes to know that there's a lot of encouragement of gaining going on out there and very little concern for the consequences. (I'm talking about the wider BBW/FA community not just Dimensions.)



Indeed. When I decided o reenter the dating world after a thirteen year hiatus, I thought long and hard about what kind of man I wanted for myself, and came to the conclusion that among other things, I wanted someone who didn't just "overlook" my fat, but embraced it as a part of who I am. Someone who could accept that I am and always will be a woman of size. 

Before I met Bigmac, I had the opportunity to meet/ date/ chat with several other men both on this site and others that cater to BBW's and their admirers. And I've met some truly nice people. But what I wasn't prepared for was the number of men that wanted little more than to stuff me to capacity on a regular basis, so that I would continue to get fatter and fatter. And there were A LOT of them. Not the rare bird that people claim it is really. The thing is that no one came right out and said so at first, no one had "Feeder" stamped on their head. Their true feelings were revealed in small doses. A grooming process of sorts (for lack of a better description). 

For example, It wasn't until I started having "feelings" for one particular gentleman that he really began to say and do things that would encourage me to eat more than I wanted to -- in order to please _*him*_. He would be so sad and disappointed when I refused to eat just one more bite. This despite the fact that this person knew full well the struggle and challenges I had faced because I had already been so much larger than I was when he met me, and knew how hard I had worked to get healthier. But at the time, I was in a vulnerable position. I had been lonely for a long time and craved love, affection, attention etc. I could feel myself falling into the whole gaining thing, and I wasn't sure whether I was willingly jumping in or being pushed. I mean the eating felt good, the attention felt good, but where would it end? 

Luckily, I had the experience, maturity and self awareness I needed to reject that choice and move on to other things. But I can definitely see that other women may not. (Age really has nothing to do with it) I cannot believe that my experience was unique or rare. Some women with both maturity and self awareness who are aware of the risks and consequences might be willing participants in this type of relationship, and to them I say -- GO FOR IT. But it's the ones who are as vulnerable and as naive as I was that are of concern.


----------



## Lovelyone

thatgirl08 said:


> I really fucking despise the assertion that every young fat girl on here is being taken advantage of. It's sexist and it's ageist, period. I'm sick of being written off as not knowing any better or being too weak (because of course I'm socially, emotionally & mentally crippled from being fat my entire life) to fight off the dozens of horny feeders waiting to pounce on me and manipulate me to immobility. Because clearly I can't support myself and I can't defend myself.. I'm easy to take advantage of, I can't think for myself, I'm just so sad and so lonely and so desperate that any guy with a dick and a cupcake is good in my book.
> 
> EDIT: And for the record, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm active in the fetish side of the community.. it's about the fact that I can't go anywhere on this site without someone harping on the dangers of feederism because all of us impressionable little girls might be influenced.



Not to besmurch you for how you feel, or to go against what you believe--in the reverse...I am sick of people who think that BECAUSE I am fat, I WANT to be fatter. I can't tell you how many times I have told people (and by people, I mean men) that I am not interested in shoving a tube down my throat so that they can force feed me pudding, heavy cream, and anything else that would be bound to put an ounce or a pound on my already fat body. I am not interested in becoming a 1,000 lb woman. I am not interested in stuffing food in my mouth until my stomach bursts open and I die from over eating just because SOMEONE wants to whack off knowing that I did it. NO, I do not want to eat for anyone on cam, and no I do not want to gain until I am immobile. 
I am NOT condemning anyone that IS into these types of things. I AM however tired of being stereotyped into a category just because I fit a certain weight limit.

ETA: It is just my opinion and no one has to agree with it, but when a person starts a thread that gets people thinking or causes an emotion to rise up in you, causes a reaction that sparks conversation...is it really such a bad thing? I think not...but you don't have to agree.


----------



## LoveBHMS

For everyone talking about feeders, how many of you are cognizant of the fact that lots of people intentionally gain weight absent any encouragement? There are numerous single feedee/gainers on this board, as well as some who have a partner who's not a feeder.

As far as those closet feeders trolling the BBW scene, I'm willing to bet for every one of them there is a closet feedee starting a picture thread on the Weight Board or pm'ing a feeder. In my time here I can say I've never encouraged a non-gainer to gain, but I have gotten MANY pm's from male wannabe gainers begging for attention and encouragement. I have had male gainers go to great lengths to try and meet me IRL. 

So don't assume it's all so one sided with those predatory feeders.


----------



## Shosh

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Speaking of death, this thread needs to die. Seriously.
> 
> This is an important topic, and could be an important discussion, but I just don't think people are wanting to, or aren't ready for, this type of discussion. It's a hard discussion to have with family and close friends, and to me, it's an almost impossible discussion to have with virtual strangers.
> 
> It's a dicey topic at best, and right now, we're all so far from the original topic. We're just snowballing here...



It is a discussion board, and people are discussing an issue. You don't get to tell people what they can discuss.


----------



## Dolce

petunia805 said:


> Indeed. When I decided o reenter the dating world after a thirteen year hiatus, I thought long and hard about what kind of man I wanted for myself, and came to the conclusion that among other things, I wanted someone who didn't just "overlook" my fat, but embraced it as a part of who I am. Someone who could accept that I am and always will be a woman of size.
> 
> Before I met Bigmac, I had the opportunity to meet/ date/ chat with several other men both on this site and others that cater to BBW's and their admirers. And I've met some truly nice people. But what I wasn't prepared for was the number of men that wanted little more than to stuff me to capacity on a regular basis, so that I would continue to get fatter and fatter. And there were A LOT of them. Not the rare bird that people claim it is really. The thing is that no one came right out and said so at first, no one had "Feeder" stamped on their head. Their true feelings were revealed in small doses. A grooming process of sorts (for lack of a better description).
> 
> For example, It wasn't until I started having "feelings" for one particular gentleman that he really began to say and do things that would encourage me to eat more than I wanted to -- in order to please _*him*_. He would be so sad and disappointed when I refused to eat just one more bite. This despite the fact that this person knew full well the struggle and challenges I had faced because I had already been so much larger than I was when he met me, and knew how hard I had worked to get healthier. But at the time, I was in a vulnerable position. I had been lonely for a long time and craved love, affection, attention etc. I could feel myself falling into the whole gaining thing, and I wasn't sure whether I was willingly jumping in or being pushed. I mean the eating felt good, the attention felt good, but where would it end?
> 
> Luckily, I had the experience, maturity and self awareness I needed to reject that choice and move on to other things. But I can definitely see that other women may not. (Age really has nothing to do with it) I cannot believe that my experience was unique or rare. Some women with both maturity and self awareness who are aware of the risks and consequences might be willing participants in this type of relationship, and to them I say -- GO FOR IT. But it's the ones who are as vulnerable and as naive as I was that are of concern.



I can completely empathize with everything you have said. I would like to post my story but do not think I am in the right frame of mind at the moment. I have considered myself a feedee in the general sense of the word my whole life. Up until age 22 I was drunk on what Super-O calls the DIMS Kool-Aid and did a lot of damage to my health and self esteem in my self-destructive search for LOVE and a man who could fulfill my personal needs for love and affection. Like you, Petunia, I want someone who also desires my body and even shares my love of the fat female form. But after having the wonderful experience of having a relationship with a FA who did not want to see me destroy myself physically or emotionally, I started to see that a man who really loves me will not attempt to covertly dominate me and make me dependent on him by making me fatter and fatter. 

My boyfriend passed away but he left me with a hope of one day finding another man who will cherish and respect me enough leave the fantasies in the bedroom and I in return for his devotion I will treat him as a king. To the FA's... I really wish there were more of you that could let the feeding go... As I write this I sit tearing up in my bedroom because my desire for a loving and intimate realtionship is so strong but like Petunia, I am exhausted by men who claim to care for me yet put ultimatums on our relationship. I am aware of myself enough to know that I cannot satisfy a man who needs a true to life gainer. But to initiate a relationship with the intention of later blackmailing me into gaining is hurtful and cruel.

If there are any young ladies out there who are high on the idea men actually lust after big women getting bigger I have some words for you. Please don't ever change yourself for what you think is LOVE. LOVE will never ask you to do that. LOVE will always put your needs before his own. He will push you to become a better woman and will accept that you also want to lift him up. He will not push you to self-destruct. Ask yourself, what do you want from life? As for me, I want to get married, have children, further myself in my career and be a good example to other heavy women who think it is impossible to be fat and fit. The kind of man I want is secure enough that he does not need to tie me down with fat. 

That is all I have to say for now but I might be back....


----------



## Dolce

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Speaking of death, this thread needs to die. Seriously.




Noooooooooooooo! Please don't kill this thread! This is the most honest and thought provoking thread I have ever read on Dimensions! I realize it may upset a lot of people but sometimes the things we get defensive about say more about our own skewed thinking than the person posing the question. These are difficult issues to tackle but need to be talked about in this community.


----------



## AnnMarie

Just a blanket comment that I keep thinking of - I resent the multiple implications that the people who have a problem with this thread have a problem because it's a "hard topic". 

It's a nice attempt at a misdirect that people react strongly because you've "touch a nerve" or "brought a truth that they don't want to admit" - but how about you've stepped on toes and crossed a line that many people don't want crossed. It's not about the subject matter, it's about the fact that people don't like others judging them or the way they live their lives. 

So, please, stop with the "I'm sorry you find this difficult.... " or the "maybe this board just can't take it... " or whatever the hell. We're allowed to be offended just because we are, and say so - just as the OP and anyone else is allowed to discuss this and agree and cumbaya over the plight of the wayward fatties. But when you do it, don't be shocked when the accused waywards are not thrilled and speak up.


----------



## Dolce

Also, women who are 400, 500, 600 + pounds deserve to be loved as they are regardless of how they got to be that fat without the fear that gaining is a prerequisite to affection. I do not think Super-O was differentiating between good and bad fatties. As a kind woman who wishes to please others, and especially my man, I do not want to be pressured into eating cupcakes "for effect". I did that for many years, yet if you would have asked me if I were insecure or doing it to please others I would have given you a big, fat, emphatic, "NO!" After all, weight gain is my fantasy. Yet I thought somehow that I in order to please an FA I HAD to gain weight. So I hid my depression, anxiety, and physical ailments in order to keep up appearances... my "porn face", if you will. But that is an exhausting existence.


----------



## Dolce

Anne Marie, I am sorry! I agree! It is not about wayward fatties. We all have the right to do with our bodies as we wish and many women who gain do it because they enjoy it. I am only speaking from my experience and my life because it may resonate with some other women. I realize this is not about an FA scourge or fat woman who are naughty because they overeat. These are personal choices. But for me, the overeating was affecting my mental and physical health.

My semantics will never be perfect nor express the true range of emotion I feel towards this topic but my intention is not berate or judge anyone.


----------



## imfree

LoveBHMS said:


> For everyone talking about feeders, how many of you are cognizant of the fact that lots of people intentionally gain weight absent any encouragement? There are numerous single feedee/gainers on this board,
> 
> ...snipped some text...
> 
> So don't assume it's all so one sided with those predatory feeders.



Your Rep is in the mail. I never needed any help 
and I wouldn't be surprised id there were a few 
Gals around who were the same way.


----------



## LillyBBBW

Dolce said:


> Anne Marie, I am sorry! I agree! It is not about wayward fatties. We all have the right to do with our bodies as we wish and many women who gain do it because they enjoy it. I am only speaking from my experience and my life because it may resonate with some other women. I realize this is not about an FA scourge or fat woman who are naughty because they overeat. These are personal choices. But for me, the overeating was affecting my mental and physical health.
> 
> My semantics will never be perfect nor express the true range of emotion I feel towards this topic but my intention is not berate or judge anyone.



Dolce, and many of the other folks here who've shared their stories: what do you suggest? I've honestly been listening to what you've had to say and am taking it seriously. What do you think would have been the lightening rod that would have helped you reach that epiphany earlier than you did? This isn't a trick question, I'm honestly interested. There are plenty of people who are quite happy and not in need of saving. I'm not worried about them but rather, is there something that would have made you say, "Hey what the hell am I doing?" or would every suggestion just made you growl, "Mind your own f'n business!" Do these repetative platitudes really help?


----------



## AnnMarie

Dolce said:


> Anne Marie, I am sorry! I agree! It is not about wayward fatties. We all have the right to do with our bodies as we wish and many women who gain do it because they enjoy it. I am only speaking from my experience and my life because it may resonate with some other women. I realize this is not about an FA scourge or fat woman who are naughty because they overeat. These are personal choices. But for me, the overeating was affecting my mental and physical health.
> 
> My semantics will never be perfect nor express the true range of emotion I feel towards this topic but my intention is not berate or judge anyone.



I don't think you were doing either thing, Dolce... not at all. There are tons of threads on the health board (and BBW I believe) about overeating and combating things and such... I sincerely hope you read those and find some help and peace with that. There's a place for all that and they are REAL issues for people - no doubt about that. Good luck in whatever you do to try to feel better.


----------



## BeaBea

petunia805 said:


> Luckily, I had the experience, maturity and self awareness I needed to reject that choice and move on to other things. But I can definitely see that other women may not.



I suspect that your maturity and self awareness came about precisely because you had to deal with men who wanted to impose their agendas on you, and not in spite of it. Drawing positive things from the experiences you have described are what give us the skills. 

All of this stuff about warnings and cautionary tales and poor examples makes me smile! This isn't stuff you can necessarily learn from listening to well intentioned advice, books or websites, or from your friends, your peer group or your Mother. The knowledge doesn't arrive at a certain age or weight. Some people lead charmed lives and never need to learn, others get the lesson over and over again and never learn. Isn't life wonderful? 

Tracey


----------



## Dolce

LillyBBBW said:


> Dolce, and many of the other folks here who've shared their stories: what do you suggest? I've honestly been listening to what you've had to say and am taking it seriously. What do you think would have been the lightening rod that would have helped you reach that epiphany earlier than you did? This isn't a trick question, I'm honestly interested. There are plenty of people who are quite happy and not in need of saving. I'm not worried about them but rather, is there something that would have made you say, "Hey what the hell am I doing?" or would every suggestion just made you growl, "Mind your own f'n business!" Do these repetative platitudes really help?



There were a few things that made me reach that epiphany. The most important one was being LOVED and respected by man who gave that affection only an FA can give yet expressed kindness in his words and deeds that he did not want to harm me or for our relationship to only be about fat. I felt LOVED by a man that I respected and he respected me. Never once did he try to manipulate me into gaining. Even though he was a FA and had feeder fantasies he still openly communicated just how a feeder/feedee relationship would effect both of us. A huge weight was taken off of me from that point on. I realized I could have these fantasies yet not let them be the main focus of my love and sexuality. I had never known the love of a man before that. 

Another reason was my deteriorating health. Like many have said, we all have our "happy" weights. Mine happens to be under 200 lbs. At 230 and gaining fast I was on the fast track to diabetes, PCOS, and agoraphobia. Also, Rhonda's death just cemented my feelings.

For the past 3 years I have made many lifestyle changes, and no I am NOT a "good" fatty. But just as many have chosen to gain I have chosen to become proactive in MY self-realization. I am still big, but I exercise almost every day and eat a very clean diet. And I will be getting my degree next year! But even after all this, I am still a feedee! I still think fat women are the most attractive women on Earth and I would definitely not be averse to enjoying the natural weight gain age typically brings us yet I do not want to be funnel fed weight gain smoothies in practice! Like many woman, I want to be loved! (and have my belly rubbed hehe)


----------



## Paquito

AnnMarie said:


> Just a blanket comment that I keep thinking of - I resent the multiple implications that the people who have a problem with this thread have a problem because it's a "hard topic".
> 
> It's a nice attempt at a misdirect that people react strongly because you've "touch a nerve" or "brought a truth that they don't want to admit" - but how about you've stepped on toes and crossed a line that many people don't want crossed. It's not about the subject matter, it's about the fact that people don't like others judging them or the way they live their lives.
> 
> So, please, stop with the "I'm sorry you find this difficult.... " or the "maybe this board just can't take it... " or whatever the hell. We're allowed to be offended just because we are, and say so - just as the OP and anyone else is allowed to discuss this and agree and cumbaya over the plight of the wayward fatties. But when you do it, don't be shocked when the accused waywards are not thrilled and speak up.



QFT, and it makes me feel even more patronized by this thread.


----------



## Carrie

AnnMarie said:


> Just a blanket comment that I keep thinking of - I resent the multiple implications that the people who have a problem with this thread have a problem because it's a "hard topic".
> 
> It's a nice attempt at a misdirect that people react strongly because you've "touch a nerve" or "brought a truth that they don't want to admit" - but how about you've stepped on toes and crossed a line that many people don't want crossed. It's not about the subject matter, it's about the fact that people don't like others judging them or the way they live their lives.
> 
> So, please, stop with the "I'm sorry you find this difficult.... " or the "maybe this board just can't take it... " or whatever the hell. We're allowed to be offended just because we are, and say so - just as the OP and anyone else is allowed to discuss this and agree and cumbaya over the plight of the wayward fatties. But when you do it, don't be shocked when the accused waywards are not thrilled and speak up.


Thank you, AM. This needed to be said.


----------



## Dolce

BeaBea said:


> This isn't stuff you can necessarily learn from listening to well intentioned advice, books or websites, or from your friends, your peer group or your Mother. The knowledge doesn't arrive at a certain age or weight. Some people lead charmed lives and never need to learn, others get the lesson over and over again and never learn. Isn't life wonderful?
> 
> Tracey




True that, Tracey but more people may be listening than you might think. And at DIMS these conversations have been discouraged. I will take my chances with my cautionary tales with the confidence that if even one BBW or FA struggling with self worth and/or sexuality can find some hope and optimism it will be well worth it. When I was young, I did listen to others - just not those harping, judging people who had no clue where I was coming from. This is not just for BBW's but also those FA's who have the fantasy but struggle with what the reality might mean for them. There are woman who enjoy being soft and cuddly and will even indulge the fantasy yet do not want to be marginalized in the process.

BTW I am 25 years old.


----------



## LillyBBBW

Dolce said:


> There were a few things that made me reach that epiphany. The most important one was being LOVED and respected by man who gave that affection only an FA can give yet expressed kindness in his words and deeds that he did not want to harm me or for our relationship to only be about fat. I felt LOVED by a man that I respected and he respected me. Never once did he try to manipulate me into gaining. Even though he was a FA and had feeder fantasies he still openly communicated just how a feeder/feedee relationship would effect both of us. A huge weight was taken off of me from that point on. I realized I could have these fantasies yet not let them be the main focus of my love and sexuality. I had never known the love of a man before that.
> 
> Another reason was my deteriorating health. Like many have said, we all have our "happy" weights. Mine happens to be under 200 lbs. At 230 and gaining fast I was on the fast track to diabetes, PCOS, and agoraphobia. Also, Rhonda's death just cemented my feelings.
> 
> For the past 3 years I have made many lifestyle changes, and no I am NOT a "good" fatty. But just as many have chosen to gain I have chosen to become proactive in MY self-realization. I am still big, but I exercise almost every day and eat a very clean diet. And I will be getting my degree next year! But even after all this, I am still a feedee! I still think fat women are the most attractive women on Earth and I would definitely not be averse to enjoying the natural weight gain age typically brings us yet I do not want to be funnel fed weight gain smoothies in practice! Like many woman, I want to be loved! (and have my belly rubbed hehe)



Dolce I'm holding out and waiting to hear from other people but I can't stop myself from posting. I can't let this post go by without saying :smitten:*WOW*:smitten:!!! What a wonderful story and advance congrats on your degree! How exciting. I'm so happy to hear all this wonderful news for you. I'm so glad I asked this question, you've made my day!


----------



## Dolce

LillyBBBW said:


> Dolce I'm holding out and waiting to hear from other people but I can't stop myself from posting. I can't let this post go by without saying :smitten:*WOW*:smitten:!!! What a wonderful story and advance congrats on your degree! How exciting. I'm so happy to hear all this wonderful news for you. I'm so glad I asked this question, you've made my day!



Are you messing with my head??? LOL


----------



## LillyBBBW

Dolce said:


> Are you messing with my head??? LOL



LOL. What do you mean? Did I say something crazy?


----------



## Never2fat4me

Jes said:


> You might need to change your username to: Sometimes2Fat4MyWallet
> 
> *wink*



ROFL!!! That is a good one. :bow:


----------



## BeaBea

Dolce said:


> I will take my chances with my cautionary tales with the confidence that if even one BBW or FA struggling with self worth and/or sexuality can find some hope and optimism it will be well worth it.



Exactly - I'm not saying that we should stop telling our stories - only that we should stop demanding that people listen to them, learn from them and immediately mend their ways. If the OP's post had been couched in more positive terms she might have found more people willing to listen.

Tracey


----------



## wrestlingguy

BeaBea said:


> Exactly - I'm not saying that we should stop telling our stories - only that we should stop demanding that people listen to them, learn from them and immediately mend their ways. If the OP's post had been couched in more positive terms she might have found more people willing to listen.
> 
> Tracey



Unfortunately, not everyone communicates in the same way.

I've often been told, even by some people in this thread, that my posts over the years come off completely different than my personality when they meet me in person. I have been told my posts sound condescending, didactic, and at times very nasty.

I would imagine that some of Felicia's posts over the years may sound the same way to some people. My post here is not a defense of the OP, although I consider her a friend. I think that at times, an important message or question here gets lost because of how the poster is perceived, which is based on opinions made by previous posts, and also the opinions of others in the forum. I do my best these days to remove the person from the post, so I can view it based on its merits, or lack thereof.

I hope that others can do the same, so that we can continue what seems to at the very least be a thought provoking (and emotional) discussion.


----------



## petunia805

LillyBBBW said:


> Dolce, and many of the other folks here who've shared their stories: what do you suggest? I've honestly been listening to what you've had to say and am taking it seriously. What do you think would have been the lightening rod that would have helped you reach that epiphany earlier than you did? This isn't a trick question, I'm honestly interested. There are plenty of people who are quite happy and not in need of saving. I'm not worried about them but rather, is there something that would have made you say, "Hey what the hell am I doing?" or would every suggestion just made you growl, "Mind your own f'n business!" Do these repetative platitudes really help?



Good question. I think that for me, I would have been more prepared to deal with the situation I found myself in, if i had read some of the experiences of other women in this community beforehand. There have been only 442 responses to this thread, but over 11,000 views. Perhaps there is someone new to the community, who reads what I shared and it at least makes them think a little bit. You know, part of that "informed decision" making process.


----------



## BeaBea

wrestlingguy said:


> I think that at times, an important message or question here gets lost because of how the poster is perceived, which is based on opinions made by previous posts, and also the opinions of others in the forum. I do my best these days to remove the person from the post, so I can view it based on its merits, or lack thereof.



Lol - are you assuming I didnt?

I've never met the OP but what posts of hers I've always read have always been interesting. If her original post had appeared anonymously here I probably would have assumed that a Troll had sneaked in and was willfully trying to cause malicious discord. The post was judged entirely on its (lack of) merits though and, if anything, the fact that Felecia is a long term member of Dims made my response more polite and moderate than it might have otherwise been. 

Tracey


----------



## SparkGirl

_*I cannot even begin to thank both of you ladies (and any others that I may have missed) for your bravery in opening up about such personal issues. I detest talking about my personal life on a public forum, but if I think it might help even one girl, I am willing to do it. I, too, am amazed at the cunning length that some FA-Feeders (I am only speaking of the ones that possess the qualities I am describing) will go to have their desires realized. A few years back, I dated my first FA and he introduced me into the true BBW scene. I would not say he was a serious feeder, but he had no problem using every arsenal in his fat wallet, and a hilarious sense of humor, to manipulate me into slowly gaining. It was so easy for him to just walk away (and break my heart to pieces) when I started to detest what it was doing to me, and how miserable it was making me. I am now dealing with the aftermath of trying to lose those 75lbs. There was a lot more to that story, albeit insignificant to this post. I could enumerate for hours on all of the men that have approached me under the guise of being such "nice" guys. They beg and moan and groan and slyly ask in every way possible for me to gain, or send pics, or go on cam, with no consequence to themselves, only to move on to the next flavor of the month when you are not giving them what they want. They take...take...take with so little giving back. 

Do not get me wrong, I am in no way bashing FA's here. I have gone to many bashes and bbw functions, and have met a lot of lovely men. Honestly though, the bad ones heavily outweigh the good ones.

I think what I am trying to say is this...trust your instincts. If it does not feel right, do NOT do it! No man of substance will make you do anything you are not comfortable with. The ones that push and push and push to get what they want do not really care and will simply walk away to move onto the next girl who will. *_



Dolce said:


> I can completely empathize with everything you have said. I would like to post my story but do not think I am in the right frame of mind at the moment. I have considered myself a feedee in the general sense of the word my whole life. Up until age 22 I was drunk on what Super-O calls the DIMS Kool-Aid and did a lot of damage to my health and self esteem in my self-destructive search for LOVE and a man who could fulfill my personal needs for love and affection. Like you, Petunia, I want someone who also desires my body and even shares my love of the fat female form. But after having the wonderful experience of having a relationship with a FA who did not want to see me destroy myself physically or emotionally, I started to see that a man who really loves me will not attempt to covertly dominate me and make me dependent on him by making me fatter and fatter.
> 
> My boyfriend passed away but he left me with a hope of one day finding another man who will cherish and respect me enough leave the fantasies in the bedroom and I in return for his devotion I will treat him as a king. To the FA's... I really wish there were more of you that could let the feeding go... As I write this I sit tearing up in my bedroom because my desire for a loving and intimate realtionship is so strong but like Petunia, I am exhausted by men who claim to care for me yet put ultimatums on our relationship. I am aware of myself enough to know that I cannot satisfy a man who needs a true to life gainer. But to initiate a relationship with the intention of later blackmailing me into gaining is hurtful and cruel.
> 
> If there are any young ladies out there who are high on the idea men actually lust after big women getting bigger I have some words for you. Please don't ever change yourself for what you think is LOVE. LOVE will never ask you to do that. LOVE will always put your needs before his own. He will push you to become a better woman and will accept that you also want to lift him up. He will not push you to self-destruct. Ask yourself, what do you want from life? As for me, I want to get married, have children, further myself in my career and be a good example to other heavy women who think it is impossible to be fat and fit. The kind of man I want is secure enough that he does not need to tie me down with fat.
> 
> That is all I have to say for now but I might be back....





petunia805 said:


> Indeed. When I decided o reenter the dating world after a thirteen year hiatus, I thought long and hard about what kind of man I wanted for myself, and came to the conclusion that among other things, I wanted someone who didn't just "overlook" my fat, but embraced it as a part of who I am. Someone who could accept that I am and always will be a woman of size.
> 
> Before I met Bigmac, I had the opportunity to meet/ date/ chat with several other men both on this site and others that cater to BBW's and their admirers. And I've met some truly nice people. But what I wasn't prepared for was the number of men that wanted little more than to stuff me to capacity on a regular basis, so that I would continue to get fatter and fatter. And there were A LOT of them. Not the rare bird that people claim it is really. The thing is that no one came right out and said so at first, no one had "Feeder" stamped on their head. Their true feelings were revealed in small doses. A grooming process of sorts (for lack of a better description).
> 
> For example, It wasn't until I started having "feelings" for one particular gentleman that he really began to say and do things that would encourage me to eat more than I wanted to -- in order to please _*him*_. He would be so sad and disappointed when I refused to eat just one more bite. This despite the fact that this person knew full well the struggle and challenges I had faced because I had already been so much larger than I was when he met me, and knew how hard I had worked to get healthier. But at the time, I was in a vulnerable position. I had been lonely for a long time and craved love, affection, attention etc. I could feel myself falling into the whole gaining thing, and I wasn't sure whether I was willingly jumping in or being pushed. I mean the eating felt good, the attention felt good, but where would it end?
> 
> Luckily, I had the experience, maturity and self awareness I needed to reject that choice and move on to other things. But I can definitely see that other women may not. (Age really has nothing to do with it) I cannot believe that my experience was unique or rare. Some women with both maturity and self awareness who are aware of the risks and consequences might be willing participants in this type of relationship, and to them I say -- GO FOR IT. But it's the ones who are as vulnerable and as naive as I was that are of concern.


----------



## BeaBea

SparkGirl said:


> _*I think what I am trying to say is this...trust your instincts. If it does not feel right, do NOT do it! No man of substance will make you do anything you are not comfortable with. The ones that push and push and push to get what they want do not really care and will simply walk away to move onto the next girl who will. *_



Spark (and Dolce and Petunia)
I understand your pain, but I dont understand why you think Feeders or Bad FA's are different from any other men. Your very wise words above would apply equally well to ALL of my thin friends. The situations you've outlined could easily be replaced by men using their wallets, their sense of humour and their charm for sex, a place to live, a loan of a car or cash. Men manipulating women to get what they want is a story as old as time!* 

Having said all that, I dont know if I should be delighted that I am finally on a level playing field with every other woman on the planet, or profoundly depressed /

Tracey

*Yes, it also works the other way round, I'm not claiming all women are Angels. Except me, I am. Definitely.


----------



## MizzSnakeBite

Shosh said:


> It is a discussion board, and people are discussing an issue. You don't get to tell people what they can discuss.



Oh god, Shosh.......lol.......you're so transparent. You need to work on some new material. 



Dolce said:


> Noooooooooooooo! Please don't kill this thread! This is the most honest and thought provoking thread I have ever read on Dimensions! I realize it may upset a lot of people but sometimes the things we get defensive about say more about our own skewed thinking than the person posing the question. These are difficult issues to tackle but need to be talked about in this community.



No, no, no....... Seriously, I'm not trying to kill the thread (and I don't even have that power, so it's a moot point). Personally, I think this kind of topic needs a very....gentle?....touch. Death + fat often equals a very explosive combination here, well, and everywhere else too. So many judgments coming from all sides... I'm not the 'happy camper' type that says "can't we all get along!?," but trying to explain such a emotional, deep topic is very hard on a message board. When it first started, I was trying to figure out a response, but really couldn't come up with something that would covey how I feel.

Please believe me, I'm GLAD you told your story. Really. 

I'm so sorry about you're bf, but I'm glad you're working towards some good health.  





AnnMarie said:


> Just a blanket comment that I keep thinking of - I resent the multiple implications that the people who have a problem with this thread have a problem because it's a "hard topic".
> 
> It's a nice attempt at a misdirect that people react strongly because you've "touch a nerve" or "brought a truth that they don't want to admit" - but how about you've stepped on toes and crossed a line that many people don't want crossed. It's not about the subject matter, it's about the fact that people don't like others judging them or the way they live their lives.
> 
> So, please, stop with the "I'm sorry you find this difficult.... " or the "maybe this board just can't take it... " or whatever the hell. We're allowed to be offended just because we are, and say so - just as the OP and anyone else is allowed to discuss this and agree and cumbaya over the plight of the wayward fatties. But when you do it, don't be shocked when the accused waywards are not thrilled and speak up.



Is this in regard to my post?


----------



## wrestlingguy

BeaBea said:


> Lol - are you assuming I didnt?
> 
> I've never met the OP but what posts of hers I've always read have always been interesting. If her original post had appeared anonymously here I probably would have assumed that a Troll had sneaked in and was willfully trying to cause malicious discord. The post was judged entirely on its (lack of) merits though and, if anything, the fact that Felecia is a long term member of Dims made my response more polite and moderate than it might have otherwise been.
> 
> Tracey



No, not you at all, Tracey. I simply quoted you because you brought up the fact that if Felecia had posted the question in a different way, that perhaps people would not have responded with such fervor.

I feel that others may not have been able to contain their objectivity upon viewing the original post.


----------



## SparkGirl

_*Because the "non-fa" jerks that I have dated only were looking for sex, not pics, webcam jaunts, dinners to stuff me or things I choose to not discuss on a public forum. Sorry, but sex will not kill you (unless you do not use a condom) or render you immobile.*_



BeaBea said:


> Spark (and Dolce and Petunia)
> I understand your pain, but I dont understand why you think Feeders or Bad FA's are different from any other men. Your very wise words above would apply equally well to ALL of my thin friends. The situations you've outlined could easily be replaced by men using their wallets, their sense of humour and their charm for sex, a place to live, a loan of a car or cash. Men manipulating women to get what they want is a story as old as time!*
> 
> Having said all that, I dont know if I should be delighted that I am finally on a level playing field with every other woman on the planet, or profoundly depressed /
> 
> Tracey
> 
> *Yes, it also works the other way round, I'm not claiming all women are Angels. Except me, I am. Definitely.


----------



## Shosh

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Oh god, Shosh.......lol.......you're so transparent. You need to work on some new material.
> 
> 
> 
> No, no, no....... Seriously, I'm not trying to kill the thread (and I don't even have that power, so it's a moot point). Personally, I think this kind of topic needs a very....gentle?....touch. Death + fat often equals a very explosive combination here, well, and everywhere else too. So many judgments coming from all sides... I'm not the 'happy camper' type that says "can't we all get along!?," but trying to explain such a emotional, deep topic is very hard on a message board. When it first started, I was trying to figure out a response, but really couldn't come up with something that would covey how I feel.
> 
> Please believe me, I'm GLAD you told your story. Really.
> 
> I'm so sorry about you're bf, but I'm glad you're working towards some good health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this in regard to my post?



Whatever, the point still stands.


----------



## Shosh

SparkGirl said:


> _*I cannot even begin to thank both of you ladies (and any others that I may have missed) for your bravery in opening up about such personal issues. I detest talking about my personal life on a public forum, but if I think it might help even one girl, I am willing to do it. I, too, am amazed at the cunning length that some FA-Feeders (I am only speaking of the ones that possess the qualities I am describing) will go to have their desires realized. A few years back, I dated my first FA and he introduced me into the true BBW scene. I would not say he was a serious feeder, but he had no problem using every arsenal in his fat wallet, and a hilarious sense of humor, to manipulate me into slowly gaining. It was so easy for him to just walk away (and break my heart to pieces) when I started to detest what it was doing to me, and how miserable it was making me. I am now dealing with the aftermath of trying to lose those 75lbs. There was a lot more to that story, albeit insignificant to this post. I could enumerate for hours on all of the men that have approached me under the guise of being such "nice" guys. They beg and moan and groan and slyly ask in every way possible for me to gain, or send pics, or go on cam, with no consequence to themselves, only to move on to the next flavor of the month when you are not giving them what they want. They take...take...take with so little giving back.
> 
> Do not get me wrong, I am in no way bashing FA's here. I have gone to many bashes and bbw functions, and have met a lot of lovely men. Honestly though, the bad ones heavily outweigh the good ones.
> 
> I think what I am trying to say is this...trust your instincts. If it does not feel right, do NOT do it! No man of substance will make you do anything you are not comfortable with. The ones that push and push and push to get what they want do not really care and will simply walk away to move onto the next girl who will. *_



I so admire your honesty. It is a painful subject to be sure, but being able to talk about how you feel as I said is very freeing.

xo


----------



## LillyBBBW

BeaBea said:


> Spark (and Dolce and Petunia)
> I understand your pain, but I dont understand why you think Feeders or Bad FA's are different from any other men. Your very wise words above would apply equally well to ALL of my thin friends. The situations you've outlined could easily be replaced by men using their wallets, their sense of humour and their charm for sex, a place to live, a loan of a car or cash. Men manipulating women to get what they want is a story as old as time!*
> 
> Having said all that, I dont know if I should be delighted that I am finally on a level playing field with every other woman on the planet, or profoundly depressed /
> 
> Tracey
> 
> *Yes, it also works the other way round, I'm not claiming all women are Angels. Except me, I am. Definitely.



I'm inclined to agree with you but it seems apparent that this is a message that needs to be heard by some. I'm trying not to be so pontifical that I assume everyone grew up on the mean streets of Medford like me. If it will help or inspire someone then it seems an imperative.


----------



## petunia805

BeaBea said:


> Spark (and Dolce and Petunia)
> I understand your pain, but I dont understand why you think Feeders or Bad FA's are different from any other men. Your very wise words above would apply equally well to ALL of my thin friends. The situations you've outlined could easily be replaced by men using their wallets, their sense of humour and their charm for sex, a place to live, a loan of a car or cash. Men manipulating women to get what they want is a story as old as time!*
> 
> Having said all that, I dont know if I should be delighted that I am finally on a level playing field with every other woman on the planet, or profoundly depressed /
> 
> Tracey
> 
> *Yes, it also works the other way round, I'm not claiming all women are Angels. Except me, I am. Definitely.



Me too. 

And i absolutely do not think that FA's or feeders are any different from other men. But here, in this forum, I'm limiting my comments to the men i have encountered as part of this community. And not all of them were like the one i mentioned upthread. There were several who were GREAT guys, just not a match for one reason or another. Indeed i found my happiness with a great man right here on Dims, who is a dyed in the wool FA, and it has worked out very well for us both. 

The point i was making, is that i was WELL versed in the ploys of "regular" guys (I hate that I said "regular" but what do i call non-FA's?) through my own experiences and that of my thin friends. But being new to the size acceptance community, and lacking understanding of it at the time, I wasn't prepared for this new thing. Maybe if i had spent some time on the boards instead of jumping into the Matching system right off the bat, i would have been more educated.


----------



## SparkGirl

_*Thanks Shosh :blush:*_


Shosh said:


> I so admire your honesty. It is a painful subject to be sure, but being able to talk about how you feel as I said is very freeing.
> 
> xo


----------



## Never2fat4me

SparkGirl said:


> _*Sorry, but sex will not kill you (unless you do not use a condom) or render you immobile.*_



In fact, doesn't safe sex do just the opposite (of rendering you immobile)? I think you burn around 300 calories an hour, and it gives you a good cardio-vascular workout.

Chris


----------



## Carrie

wrestlingguy said:


> No, not you at all, Tracey. I simply quoted you because you brought up the fact that if Felecia had posted the question in a different way, that perhaps people would not have responded with such fervor.
> 
> I feel that others may not have been able to contain their objectivity upon viewing the original post.


Phil, I have to say, I find this kind of funny, considering you're one of the more passionate male posters around these parts.  This isn't a dry academic debate we're having. Feelings were hurt by Felecia's first and subsequent posts, regardless of the merit of the thread itself (which I do believe it has). If you don't get it, good! I'm glad you - and the other people trying to convince those of us who were offended that we really shouldn't be - weren't, seriously, because it didn't feel nice to be on the receiving end of it. But maybe just entertain the idea for a moment that if you were standing in our shoes it's possible that you might feel a little less "objective". 

At this point I'm barely even mad at Felecia anymore. I'm more angry with the people in this thread trying to tell me how I should feel about this, that I'm somehow overreacting and taking things too personally, and implying through their words that it's somehow okay to make me and other supersized women feel horrible in the interest of the greater good (hello, Ayn Rand? Irony calling).


----------



## Dromond

I'll say it up front: I don't understand feederism. It doesn't excite me in any way, and I can't conceive of how it could be exciting. I'm not judging, just stating how I see things. But I've always said whatever happens between two (or more) consenting adults is none of my business, and I still believe it.

Now I'm not feeling called to respond about a subject I don't understand and know almost nothing about. I'm feeling called to respond to the general tone of this thread.

The back and forth between people with differing viewpoints is almost worthy of Hyde Park. Rather than descend to that level of mindless point/counterpoint, take a step back and think about what you are saying, and how what you are saying could be viewed. There is a lot of sweeping generalization going on, as well as condescension, and neither does any good. It stifles what could otherwise be a valuable discussion.


----------



## thatgirl08

Weeze said:


> The point that I keep trying to make here and on other fat-related venues, is that we're all fat. Some of us are fatter than others... but we're still all fat. We're all fat for a reason, whether it's feederism, hormone problems, eating disorders, whatever. You can't help being interested in feederism, but you can abstain from it. You can't change the fact that you're genetically predisposed to hormone problems, but you can see a doctor and get medication. You can't fool your brain into not thinking you have an eating problem (because God knows I've tried), but you *can* seek help. However, all those things take a lot of time and effort, and we need something to do in the interim. I can't waste time hiding and hating myself while I wait to get over a fetish, to lose weight, to learn to be OK with my body. I have to love myself the way I am NOW, which is why I come to Dimensions. People find me attractive the way I am, my opinions are not thrown out by someone saying "shut up fatass", and all the other girls shop at the same clothing stores I do. We're all so alike, and it is SO FRUSTRATING to read one or two people putting down the entire group. You're just like me, whether or not you like to think so.



POST OF THE YEAR.



bigmac said:


> Feeders taking advantage of naive fat girls is just the most egregious example of what the OP and I are worried about. For me the overall encouragement of gaining is just as troublesome. The paysite board is full of posts by young women bragging about how much weight they've gained -- in some cases hundreds of pounds. They are then cheered on by numerous supports both male and female. I'm sure that most of these ladies are indeed gaining voluntarily. However, that doesn't change the fact that they are irreversibly altering their bodies in ways that will have long-term consequences.
> 
> Twenty years from now -- when their web modeling days are over -- these women will be left living with the consequences of their intentional gaining. Meanwhile the people who encouraged them will have moved on and will be encouraging the next generation.



I find it really hard to believe that this all boils down to you being so worried for the well being of people you don't know. You're trying to paint yourself as the concerned voice.. the good guy.. the good FA. Maybe you're suppressing your inner feeder desires or something.. I don't know. But what I do know is that the paysite board doesn't represent your average fat woman or even your average Dims member. The paysite girls hardly even represent themselves.. sure, some of them are actually into feederism, some gain on purpose, some use their site as a window into their life.. but most are actresses to a degree. & yes, the girls get encouragement there and maybe other non-paysite girls read it, but how many do you know that are truly influenced by it? How many people see comments on a paysite thread and decide to gain hundreds of pounds? It just doesn't happen. Most of the women here are vehemently upset when they read wg stories & some of the comments on the paysite board.. we hear about it all the time.. do you really think these women are being influenced to gain weight by this stuff? That doesn't even really make sense. & if this is all about the paysite girls you have to realize that for most, it's a show, and for those that it isn't .. they are making the decision.. to blame it on other people (supporters, feeders) is not only offensive to those people interested in the fetish, but is also unfair to the girl in question because it implies that she is incapable and weak.

Actually, everyone here, every single day is making the decision.. we all decide what we eat and how much we eat and if we exercise or not.. and yeah, maybe most of us have shitty genetics but short of severe medical issues or being held to gun point we all make decisions everyday that affect our weight and our health. Maybe we just need a lesson in personal responsibility. Maybe we need to stop using feeders and paysite girls as scapegoats and come to the realization that we have the most control over our own lives and whether you like it or not, we all have, to a degree, some control over our weight and our health. Stop fooling yourself.. you know what you eat, how much you eat, how much exercise you get, whether you take your thyroid medicine, whether you've seen a therapist for your emotional eating.. you're only lying to yourself in the end. It's time to stop making this about everyone else and make it about ourselves, our choices, our lives because in the end WE ALL have to suffer with the consequences of our own actions. 



Lovelyone said:


> Not to besmurch you for how you feel, or to go against what you believe--in the reverse...I am sick of people who think that BECAUSE I am fat, I WANT to be fatter. I can't tell you how many times I have told people (and by people, I mean men) that I am not interested in shoving a tube down my throat so that they can force feed me pudding, heavy cream, and anything else that would be bound to put an ounce or a pound on my already fat body. I am not interested in becoming a 1,000 lb woman. I am not interested in stuffing food in my mouth until my stomach bursts open and I die from over eating just because SOMEONE wants to whack off knowing that I did it. NO, I do not want to eat for anyone on cam, and no I do not want to gain until I am immobile.
> I am NOT condemning anyone that IS into these types of things. I AM however tired of being stereotyped into a category just because I fit a certain weight limit.
> 
> ETA: It is just my opinion and no one has to agree with it, but when a person starts a thread that gets people thinking or causes an emotion to rise up in you, causes a reaction that sparks conversation...is it really such a bad thing? I think not...but you don't have to agree.



I understand, and I absolutely agree that it's vile that some of the guys here think they can just say anything they want to anyone. I AM into the fetish and 99% of the time I still don't want to talk about it or eat on cam or any of that other stuff.. and some of the things those guys say just pisses me off.. I won't get into that much, but I just wanted to say I think you're 100% justified in how you feel about it.


----------



## Tracyarts

" Where the gain is extreme to the point of compromising mobility - this would require a substantial commitment of time, effort and $$money... There is no doubt that people with compromised mobility absolutely need to take and to receive more care, health and otherwise... "

This is a great point. 

Accomodating any kind of special needs is expensive in terms of not only money, but also time and energy. And if you are living with somebody (romantic partner or family member) there is also a commitment factor towards meeting those special needs that has to be taken into consideration too. 

All of this came into play when I was at my largest, as far as the day-to-day accomodation of my health and mobility issues. 

Monetary expenses were a big deal since the only job I was able to find that was do-able with my mobility limits was occasional part time temp work in the office where my husband worked. So that meant we relied almost exclusively on my husband's paycheck (at the time he was still in his early 20's and hadn't made it very far up the career ladder yet). 

The biggest expense by far was my medical care. The only insurance I could find was a "high risk pool" policy with very high premiums as well as fairly high copay rates. I was on several prescription medications that all required copays. And because of my health issues and all the medications I was on, I had to see a doctor once a month for monitoring. Another fairly high copay. My insurance did not cover blood glucose testing supplies since I was not on insulin, so that was all out of pocket too. And then the random OTC medications and medical supplies we were responsible for as well. That all added up to about a thousand dollars a month. And this was just the baseline expense required to manage my health issues. If I got sick or hurt, there were even more copays for doctor visits and prescriptions, as well as any other OTC expenses for nonprescription items. 

The next biggest expense was housing. We could no longer live just anywhere. I needed a downstairs apartment with assigned parking near the building. Since I also relied so heavily on my husband's assistance, we needed to live close to his place of employment so that he could come home on his lunch break if I needed him to. We wound up having to spend a lot more than we wanted to for a suitable apartment that met those needs. It was a nice place, I won't complain about that, just we could have used the extra money we had to pay to live there on other things. 

Getting me from point A to point B was also a major expense, although more in terms of time and energy. I was able to get around inside our apartment, and could walk from the door to a vehicle and then from a vehicle to a seat provided I didn't have to walk too far before sitting. That severely restricted my ability to leave my home unassisted. Purchasing a scooter or powerchair was beyond our financial means. My insurance covered *rental* of scooters and power chairs, which I could have qualified for. But the copay was very expensive and only covered the scooter or chair itself. We would have been completely responsible for covering the cost of a lift mechanism for our vehicle. We were able to purchase a very basic used manual wheelchair for me that worked on smooth level indoor surfaces. A family friend gave me a sturdier used manual chair that could go outdoors on sidewalks and concrete. So between those two chairs, I was able to get out and do more and it was a MAJOR improvement in my quality of life, as I was not a homebody by nature. But, they were both very heavy and I could not lift them in and out of a vehicle by myself, nor did I have the stamina to wheel myself around for very long. Which meant that if I was going to leave the house, it had to be with somebody who could help me. Almost always my husband, but on a couple occasions my dad was able to come do it when my husband couldn't. And I couldn't fit behind the wheel of the one vehicle we owned well enough to operate it safely, so even if I needed to go somewhere I could walk right in and sit down, I still needed somebody else to drive me there.

Probably the biggest expense was in terms of our lifestyle. We could not do many things young couples often do. Save to buy a house, go on vacations, had we wanted kids starting a family would have been out of the question. Money was very tight so we couldn't just go out and enjoy ourselves or buy what we wanted without saving for it. Clothes to fit me were expensive, so mostly I sewed my own from bargain bin fabrics. Shoes for my swollen feet cost a fortune so I only had a pair and a spare. Anything we wanted to do had to be planned out to make sure I could be accomodated. 

My husband was told by somebody close to him that he needed to leave me because I was going to be an ever-increasing burden on him and would destroy his chances for a successful life. I was told by somebody close to me that if I had any sense of decency in me, I would gracefully bow out of the marriage and go home to my parents because it was selfish and wrong to drag a man in his early 20's down along with me. I felt very guilty about the amount of "taking" I was doing. It was very hard to not take it personally when he needed or wanted something and we couldn't afford it. Or when he wanted to go do something he would enjoy but couldn't do it because he had to be there for me. Many times I downplayed my own needs and wants because I felt bad about always having to come first. So, there was also an emotional cost as well.

The sheer logistics of managing my life at that size were sometimes close to overwhelming. There are so many basic day-to-day things I took for granted before that period and take for granted now that were impossible at the time. Things you'd never even think might become an issue but at the time were the biggest deal in the world.

Tracy


----------



## Angel

LoveBHMS said:


> As far as those closet feeders trolling the BBW scene, I'm willing to bet for every one of them there is a closet feedee starting a picture thread on the Weight Board or pm'ing a feeder. In my time here I can say I've never encouraged a non-gainer to gain, but I have gotten MANY pm's from male wannabe gainers begging for attention and encouragement. I have had male gainers go to great lengths to try and meet me IRL.
> 
> So don't assume it's all so one sided with those predatory feeders.



You are a female who likes BHM, males who love their fatness, male into gaining, etc. Your name here is a discriptor and you are very open and vocal about what you are into and very open about what turns you on. _That_ is why you get lots of PMs from "male wannabe gainers begging for attention and encouragement". They have read your posts and know that you are into what they would like to become a part of. I have read it many many times here, and have had guys into gaining and BHM and SSBHM tell me that there are very few FFA and female feeders or that they have never met one irl. You are one of the few who is open about it, so that, again, is probably why you get so many PMs. 

I have chatted with, and have talked to a lot of feeders in my time here and at other sites. I've even met some irl. I can tell you this, from what they have told me (and from what I have read) there are very few female feedees, and very few women who are into gaining, or who will even consider gaining. If or when gaining is brought up, or it's mentioned that the male is turned on by a female gaining, that's usually when the female lets them know flat out that she doesn't want to gain or is trying to lose weight. _That_ doesn't always stop the male feeder from trying to sway the female. Some male feeders even try to _convert_ a female into becoming a feedee or gainer or try to _convince_ them to just gain ten pounds to see if they will like it. If there were so many closet feedees out there as you seem to think, some male feeders would not be going to this extreme to try to find a feedee for themself. 

You may be a "nice" female feeder who is open and honest and who wouldn't try to convince a male to over eat or to gain unless that is what he was into; but there are lots of male feeders who do not act as you do. I had mentioned something a while back in a previous post about male feeders hiding under the guise of FA. It's not the young guys here on the forums who are open and honest about being feeders that give feeders a bad name. That's the point that I think so many are not understanding. These young guys that are open and honest - you know what you are dealing with. They are honest about what turns them on from the start. They are upfront about what they like. It's the feeders that *HIDE* behind the knight in shining armor cloak of FAT ADMIRER that manipulate, try to convert, try to convince, etc. These that use "FA" as a disguise, also have another trick up their sleeve. They play their cards right, pretend to be the noble knight in shining armor FA, wait until a female develops feelings for them, or worse - wait until after the female falls in love with them, and only then do they begin to show their true side -which is when the (what eventually is realized to be) emotional manipulation begins.

Those who have shared their stories and those who have gave hints to what they have experienced, should not be dismissed. Their experiences are real. Do you realize how difficult it is, and how much courage it takes, to come forward and admit to what turned out to be a devastating experience for them? Do you know what it's like to have been sexually assaulted and to feel ashamed and to be afraid to tell anyone because you know that no one will beleive you or that they will BLAME you instead of holding the perp responsible for his (or her) actions?


I just do not understand why you are so afraid to admit that there are feeders who are a**holes. Admitting it does not mean that all feeders are. Constantly defending all feeders everytine someone says this happened to me, is making excuses for the behavior of the "bad" feeders. If you want feeders to be respected as a whole, don't be afraid to stand up and say yeah that guy was a jerk and a a**hole and should never have treated you that way. And he isn't like us.






thatgirl08 said:


> to blame it on other people (supporters, feeders) is not only offensive to those people interested in the fetish, but is also unfair to the girl in question because it implies that she is incapable and weak.



It's not offensive to me, because I know there are manipulators, just as others here who have tried to share their experiences also know. Do you think these ladies are weak? I sure don't. I think they cared about someone or loved someone who took advantage of those feelings. I think they are brave for even attempting to share their experiences. They know all too well that some will try to shame them into silence.

There is a distinction I would like to make. Some of you like to use the word fetish. You might be able to keep whatever your ties to feederism are all nice and bundled and tied with a pretty ribbon and only get it out when the time is amorous. You might have complete control and only get that pretty package out in your bedrooms. There are so many different avenues in the world of feederism. It's not just a kink or a fetish for some. It's more than that. It's a lifestyle. It's part of who they are as much as the color of their eyes or the color of their hair. You don't see these people here constantly defending their "fetish" because to them it's not a fetish... and because they are comfortable with who they are... and because they don't feel the need to tell anyone what they and their lover share... and because they don't feel that they need the approval of anyone here to do as they please. Some don't view feederism as a fetish because it is something partaken of and mutually shared - as part of - and within the bonds of a loving healthy consentual relationship - a relationship where both parties respect each other AND fully understand what 'within moderation' means to the other.


With that being said, when someone behaves as a jerk or is an a**hole or a manipulator, they are a jerk or an a**hole or a manipulator. Being a feeder or an encourager does not give anyone a free pass, a right, or an excuse to abuse another emotionally, mentally, or physically. To deny that it does not happen... is an insult to every individual who has experienced such.


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## Wagimawr

Angel said:


> If there were so many closet feedees out there as you seem to think, some male feeders would not be going to this extreme to try to find a feedee for themself.


I think what you and her are discussing is a gender thing, honestly; I would hazard a guess that men (at least men on the internet ) are far more willing than women to open up about their sexuality to strangers, and especially strangers who have made it a point to emphasize their own matching sexualities.

Kinda like when a woman has been talking to a man for just a little while and when trading pics begins to happen, the man's erect penis ends up in the mix, despite a) the woman not asking and b) the two barely knowing each other.

Thus, she gets hit up by every male gainer in the universe because their belly is stuffed so full that it makes their dick hard; meanwhile less scrupulous male FAs and feeders are having to work overtime to create the perfect growing fat girl because there's a handful of the real ones out there.


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## bigmac

thatgirl08 said:


> I find it really hard to believe that this all boils down to you being so worried for the well being of people you don't know. You're trying to paint yourself as the concerned voice.. the good guy.. the good FA. Maybe you're suppressing your inner feeder desires or something.. I don't know.



You raise some good points. First I'm not just worried about people I don't know -- I have three daughters (2, 16, and 21) who all weigh more than those damn charts say they should. I'm worried about their well being.

And yes I am somewhat conflicted regarding my inner desires. I find fat women attractive -- including supersize women. I enjoy going out to dinner with my wife and eating well -- I nice meal at a restaurant (or at home) can be very erotic. I truly believe that its impossible to be happy if you don't eat well. I also understand how its fun to eat lots of food. That said I'm also very aware that being supersize can be very difficult (see Tracyarts' last post).

So here's the conflict. On one level I'm not opposed to weight gain. However, I also want the women in my life to avoid the issues that come with gaining lots of weight. The second fact easily trumps the first. I want my wife to be a fully participating partner. I want my girls to be able to fully participate in life. Therefore, I cannot support the aspects of the BBW/FA community that encourage intentional weight gain and deny the negative aspects of extreme weight gain.


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## Shosh

SparkGirl said:


> _*Thanks Shosh :blush:*_



You are very welcome.


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## LillyBBBW

Carrie said:


> Phil, I have to say, I find this kind of funny, considering you're one of the more passionate male posters around these parts.  This isn't a dry academic debate we're having. Feelings were hurt by Felecia's first and subsequent posts, regardless of the merit of the thread itself (which I do believe it has). If you don't get it, good! I'm glad you - and the other people trying to convince those of us who were offended that we really shouldn't be - weren't, seriously, because it didn't feel nice to be on the receiving end of it. But maybe just entertain the idea for a moment that if you were standing in our shoes it's possible that you might feel a little less "objective".
> 
> At this point I'm barely even mad at Felecia anymore. I'm more angry with the people in this thread trying to tell me how I should feel about this, that I'm somehow overreacting and taking things too personally, and implying through their words that it's somehow okay to make me and other supersized women feel horrible in the interest of the greater good (hello, Ayn Rand? Irony calling).



I have to say I agree with this Phil. The conversation here has been so good so far. It's a crime to keep dwelling on this disagreeable issue but I feel I have to defend the people who've posted here. Both you and Felecia are very nice people whom I like very much but so are Ashley, BeaBea, Supersoup, CurvyEm, Carrie, Weeze and some of the others who've spoken here. They tried to calmly explain, very nicely too I might add, why they found her post upsetting. Her responses were patronizing and dismissive. Being upset about this doesn't mean that we're mean people who don't understand what a nice person Felecia is.


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## LoveBHMS

> I just do not understand why you are so afraid to admit that there are feeders who are a**holes. Admitting it does not mean that all feeders are. Constantly defending all feeders everytine someone says this happened to me, is making excuses for the behavior of the "bad" feeders. If you want feeders to be respected as a whole, don't be afraid to stand up and say yeah that guy was a jerk and a a**hole and should never have treated you that way. And he isn't like us.



Any individual who is dishonest or manipulative is just that, dishonest and manipulative. It does not have anything to do with him being a feeder. There are men who troll the BBW scene looking for women who are US citizens because they want green cards, right? Well that being true doesn't give me license to say foreigners are assholes.



> So here's the conflict. On one level I'm not opposed to weight gain. However, I also want the women in my life to avoid the issues that come with gaining lots of weight. The second fact easily trumps the first. I want my wife to be a fully participating partner. I want my girls to be able to fully participate in life. Therefore, I cannot support the aspects of the BBW/FA community that encourage intentional weight gain and deny the negative aspects of extreme weight gain.



Nobody denies there can be negative aspects to extreme weight gain, but I think you're missing the point that Ashley and Soup made several pages back which is that "negative" means different things to different people. A lot of people would find the inability to fit in an airline seat or to walk several blocks to be difficult and stressful; but some people find it hot as heck. I've had feedee/gainers tell me they were wildly turned on at finding they couldn't put a tray table down when on an airplane because they had gotten too big. It's not your call to decide what constitutes participation in life. And even if some SS people are not turned on by getting winded when trying to walk or needing to buy clothes online, some willingly and consciously make those tradeoffs to live in the body they want and live the lifestyle they want.


----------



## Jes

Tracyarts said:


> " The biggest expense by far was my medical care. The only insurance I could find was a "high risk pool" policy with very high premiums as well as fairly high copay rates. I was on several prescription medications that all required copays. And because of my health issues and all the medications I was on, I had to see a doctor once a month for monitoring. Another fairly high copay. My insurance did not cover blood glucose testing supplies since I was not on insulin, so that was all out of pocket too. And then the random OTC medications and medical supplies we were responsible for as well. That all added up to about a thousand dollars a month. And this was just the baseline expense required to manage my health issues. If I got sick or hurt, there were even more copays for doctor visits and prescriptions, as well as any other OTC expenses for nonprescription items.



This was a great, and honest, and helpful post, Tracy. I made a point earlier that you can know that you're going to age and things are going to hurt, but you only have a vague notion of it. It's not 'til you're there, or someone does a good job explaining, exactly HOW things will hurt, that your eyes are opened. Yes, medical care is expensive. Sure. We know this in general terms, but sometimes only passively. To actually know the dollar amount and to know what insurance is available to you, and to be able to imagine what you'd make a month against what you may owe, is really helpful. What if you were single? How would you have made it? I guess you would've lived with your parents, but I imagine that you might also feel a burden to them as you say you sometimes felt you were to your husband. I'm not saying that having an example of a dollar amount means that someone should reverse behavior or feel bad, but I do think it's helpful in planning. Again, I'm the type that always likes to be prepared, certainly. If I'm going to jet off to another country, I want to know the currency and what the average thing might cost so that I bring enough money. I don't want to get there and realize I'm fucked...and stuck. We all make our choices but it's always smart for a person to be aware and to be logical about the ramifications of every decision (not just physical ones). Like Lilly said: "If it will help or inspire someone then it seems an imperative."


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## LillyBBBW

Jes said:


> This was a great, and honest, and helpful post, Tracy. I made a point earlier that you can know that you're going to age and things are going to hurt, but you only have a vague notion of it. It's not 'til you're there, or someone does a good job explaining, exactly HOW things will hurt, that your eyes are opened. Yes, medical care is expensive. Sure. We know this in general terms, but sometimes only passively. To actually know the dollar amount and to know what insurance is available to you, and to be able to imagine what you'd make a month against what you may owe, is really helpful. What if you were single? How would you have made it? I guess you would've lived with your parents, but I imagine that you might also feel a burden to them as you say you sometimes felt you were to your husband. I'm not saying that having an example of a dollar amount means that someone should reverse behavior or feel bad, but I do think it's helpful in planning. Again, I'm the type that always likes to be prepared, certainly. If I'm going to jet off to another country, I want to know the currency and what the average thing might cost so that I bring enough money. I don't want to get there and realize I'm fucked...and stuck. We all make our choices but it's always smart for a person to be aware and to be logical about the ramifications of every decision (not just physical ones). Like Lilly said: "If it will help or inspire someone then it seems an imperative."



I agree totally. I also want to harp on the idea that sometimes you can do all that you can do and things still go poorly for you. I'm not saying there's no use in trying or doing the best you can. I think that is a wise thing to do but there are folks represented in each chosen path that did not have good expereinces. Sometimes diet and exercise doesn't work. Sometimes weight loss doesn't work. There are people fighting to stay on top of terrrible metabolic issues they can't control and there are alcoholics who sit around in pork grease smoking cigars all day and nothing ever happens to them at all. I'm making the choices for myself that 'look like' they would be the right choice for me according to what I know about me but I don't really know if this will be helpful. I've spent some considerable time Tuesday-morning-quarterbacking about how I spent too much time on the stairmaster and ruined my knees. While I think it's good to invest in ourselves I don't think it's good to beat ourselves up if things didn't work out in our favor even with the best of intentions. That's what scares me most about this topic. After all that I can feesibly do, am I going to wind up the cautionary tale that everyone can point at and criticize when I'm riding my scooter? Cause I WILL be shamelessly riding a scooter if my plans don't work out. Real fast too.


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## petunia805

LoveBHMS said:


> *snipped*
> 
> Nobody denies there can be negative aspects to extreme weight gain, but I think you're missing the point that Ashley and Soup made several pages back which is that "negative" means different things to different people. A lot of people would find the inability to fit in an airline seat or to walk several blocks to be difficult and stressful; but some people find it hot as heck. I've had feedee/gainers tell me they were wildly turned on at finding they couldn't put a tray table down when on an airplane because they had gotten too big. It's not your call to decide what constitutes participation in life. And even if some SS people are not turned on by getting winded when trying to walk or needing to buy clothes online, some willingly and consciously make those tradeoffs to live in the body they want and live the lifestyle they want.



On the one hand, I agree with you. People have a right to be turned on by whatever does it for them, and not be judged for it. If they have a consenting partner to share that with then Hallelujah! Excellent. They are absolutely free to choose for themselves what "constitutes participation in life." 

But on the other hand, I don't agree. Bigmac has every right to decide what "constitutes participation in life" for himself, and by choosing a partner who's views on the matter are compatible, he did just that. As far as our daughters go, its the same as with anything else...we make decisions FOR them because we believe we know what's best for them like ANY parent...until they are old enough and have the maturity to make their own decisions. At that point, their choices will be their own, as will the consequences. 

But none of this should take anything away from you, or any of the others you mentioned. These folks obviously made the decisions that they felt were right for them. I've met some of them IRL and they seem to be mature, intelligent and thoughtful women, so I have no doubt that they entered into their chosen lifestyles fully aware of any possible consequences. It's not them or women like them that I have any concern for. It's not their partners who encourage and support them that i have a problem with. Indeed I would have a problem with their partner if they WERE NOT supportive. It is the men and women who prey upon the weak, lonely, vulnerable segments of this community that give rise to the concerns being tossed around. 

i keep reading posts that sound so angry and indignant that anyone would dare say that such weak and vulnerable people exist, and that anyone would be so "Vapid" as to be swayed by the ploys of some internet stranger. But it happens. Not everyone who comes here comes in a whole person. Hopefully they will find among us those who understand where they are and can help them reach a healthier perspective in either direction.


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## KHayes666

LoveBHMS said:


> Any individual who is dishonest or manipulative is just that, dishonest and manipulative. It does not have anything to do with him being a feeder. There are men who troll the BBW scene looking for women who are US citizens because they want green cards, right? Well that being true doesn't give me license to say foreigners are assholes.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody denies there can be negative aspects to extreme weight gain, but I think you're missing the point that Ashley and Soup made several pages back which is that "negative" means different things to different people. A lot of people would find the inability to fit in an airline seat or to walk several blocks to be difficult and stressful; but some people find it hot as heck. I've had feedee/gainers tell me they were wildly turned on at finding they couldn't put a tray table down when on an airplane because they had gotten too big. It's not your call to decide what constitutes participation in life. And even if some SS people are not turned on by getting winded when trying to walk or needing to buy clothes online, some willingly and consciously make those tradeoffs to live in the body they want and live the lifestyle they want.



I love how time and time again that Ashley, Rachel and Soup defend themselves and feederism in general saying how they're (no pun intended) grown women and can make their own decisions, and people like you and I say time and time again we're not the type to take advantage of someone.

Yet the same people post the same shit over and over again as if none of us ever said anything. Every time I look up the same folks pretty much say feeders are manipulative sociopaths and feedees are misguided and vulnerable.

I feel bad for Ash and Soup, they deserve a lot more respect than I see given.


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## LillyBBBW

KHayes666 said:


> I love how time and time again that Ashley, Rachel and Soup defend themselves and feederism in general saying how they're (no pun intended) grown women and can make their own decisions, and people like you and I say time and time again we're not the type to take advantage of someone.
> 
> Yet the same people post the same shit over and over again as if none of us ever said anything. Every time I look up the same folks pretty much say feeders are manipulative sociopaths and feedees are misguided and vulnerable.
> 
> I feel bad for Ash and Soup, they deserve a lot more respect than I see given.



To be fair, I don't think everyone is saying that all feeders are lying manipulative goons. I think this is a question of semantics. Manipulators exist. They may be into fat girls, feet, blondes, old ladies, BDSM - the fact that they are manipulators is a moral issue and not necessarily connected to the arena in which they prefer to practice their techniques. Most people here seem to understand that to some degree. The gray area lies in just how widespread this phenomenon is. You can go to any sexuality control group and ask around. The impression from everybody is, "OMG THEY RAPIN' ER'BODY UP IN HERE!" simply because they keep getting hit on by baboons. This phenomenon is not necessarily indicative of the broader culture statstically though it may seem that way from a certain perspective. This is arguable but I don't think anyone is trying to say something bad about all feeders. Just expressing the encounters with it that they've had.


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## KHayes666

LillyBBBW said:


> To be fair, I don't think everyone is saying that all feeders are lying manipulative goons. I think this is a question of semantics. Manipulators exist. They may be into fat girls, feet, blondes, old ladies, BDSM - the fact that they are manipulators is a moral issue and not necessarily connected to the arena in which they prefer to practice their techniques. Most people here seem to understand that to some degree. The gray area lies in just how widespread this phenomenon is. You can go to any sexuality control group and ask around. The impression from everybody is, "OMG THEY RAPIN' ER'BODY UP IN HERE!" simply because they keep getting hit on by baboons. This phenomenon is not necessarily indicative of the broader culture statstically though it may seem that way from a certain perspective. This is arguable but I don't think anyone is trying to say something bad about all feeders. Just expressing the encounters with it that they've had.



That's my point....there are bad apples in every sort of group. Men, women, bikers, feeders, cast members of the View.....its human nature to have good and evil.

Just wish they'd meet someone good for a change, maybe it would change their opinions ever so slightly.


----------



## Jes

KHayes666 said:


> Just wish they'd meet someone good for a change .



I'm sure they'd like to, too


----------



## iwantabbw

TraciJo67 said:


> Just once, I'd like to hear a non-fat person who loves to encourage weight gain say, "I know that my behaviors could be potentially harmful to this person that I care about. And no, it's not all about her and what she wants and even if she's 100% dedicated to gaining, with or without me, so long as I am in this relationship with her, I am also partially responsible for any consequences of our mutual actions. She's healthy and mobile right now, but I know that something could happen, such as a fall that immobilizes her, or an illness that's not related to her weight that could later become life threatening as a consequence of her weight. I understand this, and the risks involved, and she does too. This acknowledgement doesn't make me a monster, nor does it make her out to be a mindless syncophant who sacrifices herself to my desires. It simply means that I'm a responsible, caring individual and I'm mindful of how my behaviors could affect this person whom I care about."



I am a non-fat guy, and what I have to say is that I did at one time have fantasies in my mind about feederism, but for me personally, I had moral issues with it, for the very reason that I felt it would increase the chances of the woman getting health-related illnesses. So I decided that I would never put any pressure on any woman I was ever with to gain weight for my desire. I would just tell her to be happy with whatever her "natural" weight was.
I think super is a good woman with a good heart, and I think she was trying to get people to acknowledge that being super super big does increase the risk of you dying from some health related issue, just as being super super skinny does. And I do not think that should merit a timeout, and am actually quite saddened that it happened.


----------



## LoveBHMS

Honestly Lilly I'm sick of it being acceptable to harp on the stereotype. It wouldn't be acceptable at all for anyone to say "Hey I know all Jews aren't cheap/all Blacks aren't on welfare/all Asians aren't good at math but the ones I know are, so it's ok for me to complain about cheap Jews or lazy blacks or praise Asian math geniuses because hey, that's what I know."


----------



## thatgirl08

Angel said:


> It's not offensive to me, because I know there are manipulators, just as others here who have tried to share their experiences also know. Do you think these ladies are weak? I sure don't. I think they cared about someone or loved someone who took advantage of those feelings. I think they are brave for even attempting to share their experiences. They know all too well that some will try to shame them into silence.
> 
> There is a distinction I would like to make. Some of you like to use the word fetish. You might be able to keep whatever your ties to feederism are all nice and bundled and tied with a pretty ribbon and only get it out when the time is amorous. You might have complete control and only get that pretty package out in your bedrooms. There are so many different avenues in the world of feederism. It's not just a kink or a fetish for some. It's more than that. It's a lifestyle. It's part of who they are as much as the color of their eyes or the color of their hair. You don't see these people here constantly defending their "fetish" because to them it's not a fetish... and because they are comfortable with who they are... and because they don't feel the need to tell anyone what they and their lover share... and because they don't feel that they need the approval of anyone here to do as they please. Some don't view feederism as a fetish because it is something partaken of and mutually shared - as part of - and within the bonds of a loving healthy consentual relationship - a relationship where both parties respect each other AND fully understand what 'within moderation' means to the other.
> 
> 
> With that being said, when someone behaves as a jerk or is an a**hole or a manipulator, they are a jerk or an a**hole or a manipulator. Being a feeder or an encourager does not give anyone a free pass, a right, or an excuse to abuse another emotionally, mentally, or physically. To deny that it does not happen... is an insult to every individual who has experienced such.



It may not be offensive to you, but it's offensive to me.. and I know it's offensive to some of the other women here that are constant targets of that sort of warning & harping. As someone who is female, still a teenager and fairly open about my participation in a fetish lifestyle.. I am one of those women.. some people think I'm being manipulated, some think I'm doing it for attention, some think I'm just a little girl who is going to wake up someday and realize this was all a grave mistake. Manipulation happens in the community.. I'm not denying it.. but to paint all of those into the fetish (and yes, it's a fetish) as manipulative or easily manipulated is wrong. It's a misguided stereotype.. period. 

I refer to feederism as a fetish because it is. Whether you participate in it once in your life or everyday as a part of your relationship, it's still a fetish. Feederism has been a large part of my life since I've had a sexuality.. I can't imagine sex without it, I can't imagine a relationship without it.. that doesn't mean it isn't still a kink. As far as discussing feederism.. too fucking bad. This site has a weight board, and for some of us, it's the only opportunity we have to discuss this with people who feel similarly.. that doesn't cheapen the importance of it in my life or in a relationship or indicate inequality or manipulation. 



bigmac said:


> So here's the conflict. On one level I'm not opposed to weight gain. However, I also want the women in my life to avoid the issues that come with gaining lots of weight. The second fact easily trumps the first. I want my wife to be a fully participating partner. I want my girls to be able to fully participate in life. *Therefore, I cannot support the aspects of the BBW/FA community that encourage intentional weight gain and deny the negative aspects of extreme weight gain.*



Luckily, no one is asking you to.


----------



## thatgirl08

KHayes666 said:


> That's my point....there are bad apples in every sort of group. Men, women, bikers, feeders,* cast members of the View*.....its human nature to have good and evil.



Or in this case, all evil.


----------



## iwantabbw

having read this thread, it seems to me that a lot of the fat people on here think it is not ok for someone to say to another fat person that they think they weigh too much and that weighing too much can possibly kill them.

so does that mean that these fat people also think that if someone is anorexic, they should be left as they are, because it is their choice that they want to be super skinny? should we tell an anorexic friend to seek treatment, or, is it rather a case of "who are we to tell them how they live"?

and if someone thinks that it is ok to tell an anorexic to put on weight and not tell a woman who is 700 lbs to lose weight, why is this so? and don't say because anorexia is a disease, because some might say that someone who wants to weigh 700 lbs is suffering from a "disease" too.


----------



## EtobicokeFA

iwantabbw said:


> having read this thread, it seems to me that a lot of the fat people on here think it is not ok for someone to say to another fat person that they think they weigh too much and that weighing too much can possibly kill them.
> 
> so does that mean that these fat people also think that if someone is anorexic, they should be left as they are, because it is their choice that they want to be super skinny? should we tell an anorexic friend to seek treatment, or, is it rather a case of "who are we to tell them how they live"?
> 
> and if someone thinks that it is ok to tell an anorexic to put on weight and not tell a woman who is 700 lbs to lose weight, why is this so? and don't say because anorexia is a disease, because some might say that someone who wants to weigh 700 lbs is suffering from a "disease" too.



Except you can't tell anybody that they are anorexic either, even if they look it.

Besides the point is that you can't always tell if the person is healthy or unhealthy.


----------



## thatgirl08

iwantabbw said:


> having read this thread, it seems to me that a lot of the fat people on here think it is not ok for someone to say to another fat person that they think they weigh too much and that weighing too much can possibly kill them.
> 
> so does that mean that these fat people also think that if someone is anorexic, they should be left as they are, because it is their choice that they want to be super skinny? should we tell an anorexic friend to seek treatment, or, is it rather a case of "who are we to tell them how they live"?
> 
> and if someone thinks that it is ok to tell an anorexic to put on weight and not tell a woman who is 700 lbs to lose weight, why is this so? and don't say because anorexia is a disease, because some might say that someone who wants to weigh 700 lbs is suffering from a "disease" too.



I think the first distinction that needs to be made is who you're telling.. is this your friend/family member or one internet stranger to another? It seems to me that most people here are against the idea of there being one specific number that is "too fat" and against the idea of some fat people here telling other fat people here that they are "too fat" and need to lose weight. It's not really appropriate to give your unsolicited opinion to a stranger about their weight, and it doesn't make for a very friendly environment for there to be a set number or range at which someone is considered too fat. 

Secondly, there's a difference between saying to your family/friend that you're genuinely concerned for their health & well being (whether it be because of anorexia or because of a high weight) and out right criticizing them for how they look. I think it's important also to note that once you have made your concerns known it's not respectful (or helpful) to continue to criticize.. at some point you have to realize that it's their life.. and yes, you should let them live it how they see fit. I would feel the same way if someone I'm close to was anorexic.. matter of fact I was close friends with a girl in high school who was anorexic.. and I did make my concerns known a few times but ultimately, she didn't want to listen.. she wanted to do her own thing. Who am I (as someone who isn't a doctor or her parent) to tell her what to do, how to live her life?


----------



## iwantabbw

EtobicokeFA said:


> Except you can't tell anybody that they are anorexic either, even if they look it.
> 
> Besides the point is that you can't always tell if the person is healthy or unhealthy.



so you're saying that if you had a friend who was starving him/herself and not eating lunch and all they ever ate when you saw them was a banana or an apple and their weight had plummeted so low that they looked like someone who had been starved, you would not suggest to them that they see a doctor because you feel that it is their choice to starve themselves and that you have no business to interfere in his or her life?


----------



## LillyBBBW

iwantabbw said:


> having read this thread, it seems to me that a lot of the fat people on here think it is not ok for someone to say to another fat person that they think they weigh too much and that weighing too much can possibly kill them.
> 
> so does that mean that these fat people also think that if someone is anorexic, they should be left as they are, because it is their choice that they want to be super skinny? should we tell an anorexic friend to seek treatment, or, is it rather a case of "who are we to tell them how they live"?
> 
> and if someone thinks that it is ok to tell an anorexic to put on weight and not tell a woman who is 700 lbs to lose weight, why is this so? and don't say because anorexia is a disease, because some might say that someone who wants to weigh 700 lbs is suffering from a "disease" too.



Why not? Anorexia is a disease and an educated person would understand the futility of walking up to someone with a disease and demanding that they straighten up or die. The issue is too complex to just hand someone a sandwhich and pat yourself on the back for being so clever and helpful. There are many issues that lead to and encompass anorexia, just as it is for obesity. It is a too complex an issue to go around smoothing your lapels declaring judgements over what insane nutballs they must be and how they could be making smarter decision like you've so triumphantly done. Your own experiences as a fat person or feeder are your own. They do not necessarily apply to someone else.


----------



## EtobicokeFA

iwantabbw said:


> so you're saying that if you had a friend who was starving him/herself and not eating lunch and all they ever ate when you saw them was a banana or an apple and their weight had plummeted so low that they looked like someone who had been starved, you would not suggest to them that they see a doctor because you feel that it is their choice to starve themselves and that you have no business to interfere in his or her life?



Well there is a difference between who you think is an anorexic and someone you know is an anorexic. 

You should not say it to a stranger, like you seem to have been suggesting. However, if you know for certain that someone you know is, then that is a different story.


----------



## iwantabbw

LillyBBBW said:


> Why not? Anorexia is a disease



so is someone who wants to weigh more than 700 lbs also suffering from a "disease"?


----------



## iwantabbw

thatgirl08 said:


> I think the first distinction that needs to be made is who you're telling.. is this your friend/family member or one internet stranger to another? It seems to me that most people here are against the idea of there being one specific number that is "too fat" and against the idea of some fat people here telling other fat people here that they are "too fat" and need to lose weight. It's not really appropriate to give your unsolicited opinion to a stranger about their weight, and it doesn't make for a very friendly environment for there to be a set number or range at which someone is considered too fat.
> 
> Secondly, there's a difference between saying to your family/friend that you're genuinely concerned for their health & well being (whether it be because of anorexia or because of a high weight) and out right criticizing them for how they look. I think it's important also to note that once you have made your concerns known it's not respectful (or helpful) to continue to criticize.. at some point you have to realize that it's their life.. and yes, you should let them live it how they see fit. I would feel the same way if someone I'm close to was anorexic.. matter of fact I was close friends with a girl in high school who was anorexic.. and I did make my concerns known a few times but ultimately, she didn't want to listen.. she wanted to do her own thing. Who am I (as someone who isn't a doctor or her parent) to tell her what to do, how to live her life?



ok, I agree with everything you say there.

I read this thread from the beginning up until the 7th page in one go. And I think super was very harshly judged. She was raising a few questions, and she got accused of being a fat hater, which was very judgmental - a lot more judgmental than she had been.


----------



## iwantabbw

EtobicokeFA said:


> Well there is a difference between who you think is an anorexic and someone you know is an anorexic.
> 
> You should not say it to a stranger, like you seem to have been suggesting. However, if you know for certain that someone you know is, then that is a different story.



I totally agree, you should not say such stuff to strangers.

From what I read, people did not like the fact that super was suggesting that having a very high weight can increase your chances of dying, I am just curious if they would still feel the same if super was to say that being anorexically skinny increases the chances of you dying.


----------



## thatgirl08

iwantabbw said:


> so is someone who wants to weigh more than 700 lbs also suffering from a "disease"?



There can be no universal answer to this.



iwantabbw said:


> I totally agree, you should not say such stuff to strangers.
> 
> From what I read, people did not like the fact that super was suggesting that having a very high weight can increase your chances of dying, I am just curious if they would still feel the same if super was to say that being anorexically skinny increases the chances of you dying.



Because most of us are strangers.. sure Super might be friends with some of the people on this board and if she has specific concerns about them it would be perfectly fine to address that in private.. but to start a thread on a site about fat stuff about what makes someone a good/healthy fatty and someone a bad/unhealthy fatty is rude and bound to stir the pot. Would we feel as vehemently about issues related to extreme thinness? Probably not, since not many of us have a direct experience with that. The issue of obesity hits pretty close to home for all of us. To compare the two in relation to this venue is pretty naive.


----------



## iwantabbw

thatgirl08 said:


> Because most of us are strangers.. sure Super might be friends with some of the people on this board and if she has specific concerns about them it would be perfectly fine to address that in private.. but to start a thread on a site about fat stuff about what makes someone a good/healthy fatty and someone a bad/unhealthy fatty is rude and bound to stir the pot. Would we feel as vehemently about issues related to extreme thinness? Probably not, since not many of us have a direct experience with that. The issue of obesity hits pretty close to home for all of us. To compare the two in relation to this venue is pretty naive.



Then I feel the reaction of people to her has been a failure on the part of the community. 

These forums should be open-minded where people are allowed to express their views without worrying they might offend x or offend y. As long as the post is not bigoted, then the poster should not be punished.
super raised the possibility that extreme weight gain might be bad for someone's health. You might disagree with her, and think that it is not her business to worry about someone else, but at the same time, she can turn around and say it is not your business to worry about her opinion and you can simply ignore her post.

If these forums keep banning people/putting them on timeout for voicing their honest opinions about things that are concerning them, then to me it is a failure on the part of the forums.


----------



## joswitch

Anyroad up -
I have great news for everyone so desperately worried about the "new generation" of feedees.... You can all relax a little and unclench your wringing hands...


Go check out Fantasy Feeder's personals...
In profile after profile you will read young women who are excercising their personal autonomy / responsibility for their own bodies and their own actions by declaring boldly:

"I am not a feedee / not interested in gaining. Do not PM me asking me to 'gain for you'!"
or
"Happy as I am, do not want to gain or lose. I want someone who wants me as is."
or
"Do not want to gain in RL, but am into role play"
or
"I am a feedee but that does not mean I will gain for you, so don't ask me to!"

etc. etc. etc.

By and large the profiles of girls looking to gain to extreme levels are fakes, probably with dudes behind the keyboard....

Pretty much every week one girl or another will start a thread laying the smackdown on the "baboons" (as Lilly so amuusingly put it) who persist in PMing girls with "ZOMG UR SO HOTT, BUT YOU WUD BE HOTTER IF YOU GAINED 500lbs!!!!"... And there will be a loud and lengthy chorus of agreement...
And all THAT is on a site, specifically and solely purposed for feedism.
Not a general purpose FA/BBW site...

Girls in general are not taking shit from internet douchebags anymore...

Now, please don't take this as an attempt to silence anyone testifying about your own experiences... That's all good...

Just - a lot of the moral panic and "won't someone think of the children" may be... redundant...


And if you do have kids and worry about their being exploited?
*Raise 'em to be EMPOWERED.
By the time they're grown up to adulthood:* if they have a good sense that they are valuable, worthwhile humans in their own right...
If they understand it's up to them and NO-ONE else to make decisions about their body - what they eat, what/how/who they sex, everything...
Empower them to defend themselves emotionally, psychologically and physically...

Don't teach them to look for Prince (or Princess) Charming who will magically fix everything for them... Cos if you do they will grow up looking for and seeing P. Charming in every exploitative scrote that comes down the track...

Teach them to own their own bodies and their own issues.... The best way to do this will be by example...

And if you are particularly concerned about the scourge of Teh Ebil Future Feedaz...
Do not be all controlling about food (or anything) - or you run the risk that your kids will grow up to look for someone who will control them as adults... Never having been given chance to control themselves / appreciate consequences in a safe(r) environment...

Do not build little guilt trips / exploitation grips into your kids psyche from an early age!! Do not place any kind of emotional or moral value on food / excercise or weight.... So best to avoid stuff like this:
"You don't leave this table until you clear your plate"
"Be a good girl and eat your greens"
"I slaved all day to cook this for you and now you won't eat it! You don't love me! *sob*"
"Look how nice and slim your cousin is!"

Cos every one of those kinda things plays into the hands of Teh Ebil Future Feedaz!!!!

If you don't hear from me again it will be cos I have been assassinated by time-travelling future feeder ninjas as punishment for breaking the League of Evil Feeders cod of silence... The cod is battered... Natch.


----------



## joswitch

iwantabbw said:


> ok, I agree with everything you say there.
> 
> I read this thread from the beginning *up until the 7th page i*n one go. And I think super was very harshly judged. She was raising a few questions, and she got accused of being a fat hater, which was very judgmental - a lot more judgmental than she had been.


^dude you are 13 pages behind


----------



## joswitch

iwantabbw said:


> Then I feel the reaction of people to her has been a failure on the part of the community.
> 
> These forums should be open-minded where people are allowed to express their views without worrying they might offend x or offend y. As long as the post is not bigoted, then the poster should not be punished.
> super raised the possibility that extreme weight gain might be bad for someone's health. You might disagree with her, and think that it is not her business to worry about someone else, but at the same time, she can turn around and say it is not your business to worry about her opinion and you can simply ignore her post.
> 
> If these forums keep banning people/putting them on timeout for voicing their honest opinions about things that are concerning them, then to me it is a failure on the part of the forums.


You really are new here aren't you??


----------



## thatgirl08

iwantabbw said:


> Then I feel the reaction of people to her has been a failure on the part of the community.
> 
> These forums should be open-minded where people are allowed to express their views without worrying they might offend x or offend y. As long as the post is not bigoted, then the poster should not be punished.
> super raised the possibility that extreme weight gain might be bad for someone's health. You might disagree with her, and think that it is not her business to worry about someone else, but at the same time, she can turn around and say it is not your business to worry about her opinion and you can simply ignore her post.
> 
> If these forums keep banning people/putting them on timeout for voicing their honest opinions about things that are concerning them, then to me it is a failure on the part of the forums.



I know your 11 posts basically make you an expert on the community and the forum but I think you're missing the point. When she laid it out like "this is what I see others doing and this is why it's wrong" followed with "this is what I'm doing instead" it sounds like she's condemning certain people for the things they've done/haven't done.. and when those things are fat related on what is supposed to be a fat positive site, it's not going to go over well. In my opinion, had the OP been written differently and had Supero not included that part about what she is personally doing there would have been a very different message and a very different response. She may have had good intentions but the post was clearly offensive to many people here.


----------



## Lovelyone

iwantabbw said:


> having read this thread, it seems to me that a lot of the fat people on here think it is not ok for someone to say to another fat person that they think they weigh too much and that weighing too much can possibly kill them.
> 
> so does that mean that these fat people also think that if someone is anorexic, they should be left as they are, because it is their choice that they want to be super skinny? should we tell an anorexic friend to seek treatment, or, is it rather a case of "who are we to tell them how they live"?
> 
> and if someone thinks that it is ok to tell an anorexic to put on weight and not tell a woman who is 700 lbs to lose weight, why is this so? and don't say because anorexia is a disease, because *some might say* that someone who wants to weigh 700 lbs is suffering from a "disease" too.



With regard to your first paragraph...I think the distinction here lies with the fact that the people you are talking about ALREADY know what is good and what is bad in regard to their own bodies. They are adults and not children who need their hands slapped cos they got into the proverbial cookie jar without permission. WE (and I speak for fatties cos I am one) get reminded on a daily basis how our being fat can lead to our deaths, what we should eat and drink, how we should act, what we should and should not wear, what jobs we can and cannot have because of our size and the list goes on and on and on. You can't turn on a tv or a radio without hearing how being fat is a negative in some way shape or form. 
Trust me when I tell you that people in today's society have no qualms in giving their opinions on how WE should live our lives. The simple fact of the matter is that NOT all fat people are unhealthy...whereas someone with anorexia does have an eating disorder that is both damaging to the mind and body. I have a close personal friend who has anorexia. This disease is debilitating and people who have it rarely overcome it. I didn't have to tell her she had it. She KNEW she had a problem. When you lose your hair, your teeth fall out, you wont eat at all cos you are afraid that you will gain a millionth of a pound, cry because when you DO eat-the spoon scraped your teeth, and you're afraid that you've lost your mind cos the person that you see in the mirror isn't the same as the person that everyone around you sees...you realize that you have issues. The people I have known with anorexia KNOW they have it..they just can't control it. 

Would you say that it's okay to walk up to a total stranger and tell them that their nose is too big, or the gap in their teeth looks funny? I would hope that you would have the decency to keep those opinions to yourself. Unfortunately as a fat woman, I get to hear EVERY SINGLE DAY who MY size effects OTHER PEOPLE (including people whom I have never met). I get to deal with naysayers and health guru wannabes who think its OKAY to take food out of my shopping cart and tell me I should not buy it. I get to deal with people who stare at me, point at me, make nasty rude comments about me, and basically make my life a living hell..and what for? They do it because THEY have a fat prejudice. 

Finally, the last line of your posting says it all...SOME MIGHT SAY. Some might say the world will end in 2012. Hell some said it would end during Y2K. Some might say that the world will tip off its axis if I leave Indiana and throw the balance of the Earth off kilter. Some might say that gays shouldn't have the right to marry. Some might even go so far as to imply that men who like fat chicks have mental issues. Some might even say that fat people should be locked away in a hospital until they comply with all the skinny people and lose weight (because God forbid someone LIKE being fat, ya know?). Yes some might say that someone wanting to be 700 lbs. is suffering from a disease too, but others might think of it as a choice. Don't think for one moment that these people haven't thought about what would happen, the trials and tribulations they might have to overcome, the health issues they might have to endure to become that 700, 800, 900, 1,000 lb. person. Everyone makes choices everyday..some good some bad and not everyone thinks that what they are doing will be unhealthy, and really...who is to say it WILL be?


----------



## tonynyc

iwantabbw said:


> ok, I agree with everything you say there.
> 
> I read this thread from the beginning up until the 7th page in one go. And I think super was very harshly judged. She was raising a few questions, and she got accused of being a fat hater, which was very judgmental - a lot more judgmental than she had been.



you seem familiar ... hmmmm


----------



## CastingPearls

tonynyc said:


> you seem familiar ... hmmmm


Yeah. I thought the same thing.


----------



## BeaBea

iwantabbw said:


> I feel the reaction of people to her has been a failure on the part of the community.


The 'Community' does not have an appointed spokesperson. Everything on these boards is personal opinion. 



iwantabbw said:


> These forums should be open-minded where people are allowed to express their views without worrying they might offend x or offend y.


So, the OP can give her views and thats ok, but when we give differing views then its a problem and we're failing the Community?



iwantabbw said:


> If these forums keep banning people/putting them on timeout for voicing their honest opinions about things that are concerning them, then to me it is a failure on the part of the forums.


Sorry, but by the time I reached the end of this post I started smelling Troll. I might be wrong, it might just be the scent of a slightly clueless newbie who is trying hard to understand in which case I apologise, but my suspicions will remain while I see what happens next.

Tracey


----------



## mossystate

Someone saw the fat signal.


----------



## joswitch

CastingPearls said:


> Yeah. I thought the same thing.



Aha! he's "just a thin guy who wants a bbw"!!!

Well, crush a croissant! Who'd a thunk it!?


----------



## collared Princess

LillyBBBW said:


> It struck me in a similar way even though I'm aware that there have been a few incidents here and there where women abandoned good sense to follow a wide eyed fella who said GAIN GAIN GAIN. I'm not out to belittle that or make anyone feel badly about this. What I do resent is the kneejerk reaction to point at the paysite board or a cupcake eating feedee and saying, "This is your fualt." Is this really empowering? It's demoralizing to us, them, men, EVERYBODY. If a man asks you to gain to 1000 pounds, you should then ask him to lie down under this bus and let you roll back and fourth over his tremoring body. Why do these conversations always go any further than this and target women? Stupid men (and women, of course. Don't want to ignore the BHMs here) who are disconnected from reality exist all over the place. It's especially troubling in the case of a feeder but once again, with feeling, *the woman is not to blame.* The OTHER woman with the cupcake t shirt is not to blame. The super sized woman who doesn't want to tell people about her private issues - not to blame. Men: not to blame. There's only one person who deserves to be under that bus.




I just want to snuggle with Lilly while eating cupcakes:smitten:


----------



## joswitch

mossystate said:


> Someone saw the fat signal.



If this brings a BBWBatgirl running, then I want one of these sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad!


----------



## mossystate

joswitch said:


> If this brings a BBWBatgirl running, then I want one of these sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad!



Nah...it will be a hot man, made according to my specifications.


----------



## joswitch

mossystate said:


> Nah...it will be a hot man, made according to my specifications.



*cries*


----------



## BeaBea

joswitch said:


> If this brings a BBWBatgirl running, then I want one of these sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad!



I'm not running, but you know, waddling as fast as I can. As long as I dont pass a Cupcake shop I'll be there in an hour or two. K?


----------



## joswitch

BeaBea said:


> I'm not running, but you know, waddling as fast as I can. As long as I dont pass a Cupcake shop I'll be there in an hour or two. K?



*yays*  

andsomemorethingyssothethingywillpost


----------



## mossystate

When one wishes to troll a board after they have been scolded, they should change their age, at the very least.


----------



## thatgirl08

Can someone tell me who this person was because I didn't make the connection.. maybe because I've been gone for 2 months.


----------



## Dr. Feelgood

mossystate said:


> When one wishes to troll a board after they have been scolded, they should change their age, at the very least.



Doesn't that happen automatically if you wait long enough? It does with me.


----------



## furious styles

interesting read. i wish i had someone to do dims cliff notes for me because i don't have time to get through a 20 page thread but from what i read a lot of knowledge and a healthy dose of ignorance were thrown around.


----------



## Dromond

joswitch said:


> Aha! he's "just a thin guy who wants a bbw"!!!
> 
> Well, crush a croissant! Who'd a thunk it!?



You'd crush a croissant? You evil man.


----------



## Dromond

furious styles said:


> interesting read. i wish i had someone to do dims cliff notes for me because i don't have time to get through a 20 page thread but from what i read a lot of knowledge and a healthy dose of ignorance were thrown around.



Thread summary: many people took offense at the way SuperO opened the thread. Much arguing was had. People trolled, cajoled, laughed, cried, and generally kicked up a fuss. SuperO was put on timeout, I guess. I can't see the sense of that, but anyway.

After all of the above, we are still where we were when the thread began.


----------



## joswitch

Dromond said:


> You'd crush a croissant? You evil man.



I'm a feeder - evil is my job. Bwahahahahahaha!


----------



## TraciJo67

iwantabbw said:


> If these forums keep banning people/putting them on timeout for voicing their honest opinions about things that are concerning them, then to me it is a failure on the part of the forums.


 
You know what I think is another failure (that will hopefully be addressed very soon)? Banned people being allowed to come back, presumably with a new IP address. 



Dromond said:


> Thread summary: many people took offense at the way SuperO opened the thread. Much arguing was had. People trolled, cajoled, laughed, cried, and generally kicked up a fuss. SuperO was put on timeout, I guess. I can't see the sense of that, but anyway.
> 
> After all of the above, we are still where we were when the thread began.


 
I wish I would have just stuck to the summary


----------



## iwantabbw

Lovelyone said:


> With regard to your first paragraph...I think the distinction here lies with the fact that the people you are talking about ALREADY know what is good and what is bad in regard to their own bodies. They are adults and not children who need their hands slapped cos they got into the proverbial cookie jar without permission. WE (and I speak for fatties cos I am one) get reminded on a daily basis how our being fat can lead to our deaths, what we should eat and drink, how we should act, what we should and should not wear, what jobs we can and cannot have because of our size and the list goes on and on and on.



First of all, I read on the health board thread that you're going through a tough time, so I hope you're feeling better now.

I appreciate that fat people constantly being told how to live their lives must make them hate it. But I think what super was saying was different to the normal lecture fat people get. She raised the possibility that extreme weight gain might be contributing to someone's death. She did it out of caringness. And she got brutally attacked. Why was it such a brutal attack? I think the reason is because this is a kind of backlash by fat people against being told stuff. The question is, is it really appropriate to turn nasty on someone who has been such a long member at these forums because they had a different opinion to you?


----------



## mossystate

ineversawthemoviegroundhogsdaybutiimaginethisiswhatitwaslike


alsoyoumusthaveneverbeenbrutallyattackedtocallwhathappenedhereabrutalattackthankyouandtrythevealitisrealtender

whatthefuckisitwiththespacesinmysentencesmakesmerealmadwhyyesitdoes


----------



## tonynyc

joswitch said:


> Aha! he's "just a thin guy who wants a bbw"!!!
> 
> Well, crush a croissant! Who'd a thunk it!?



Yep  will a couple of *Donuts Burger Bombs* do the trick :happy:








*Look at all that sugary, salty, gooey meaty goodness*


----------



## iwantabbw

BeaBea said:


> Sorry, but by the time I reached the end of this post I started smelling Troll. I might be wrong, it might just be the scent of a slightly clueless newbie who is trying hard to understand in which case I apologise, but my suspicions will remain while I see what happens next.
> 
> Tracey



All I am saying is I think it was very harsh to put super on a timeout. I read what she wrote, and I do not feel she merited a ban.
Maybe you guys don't realise, but I think for a lot of fat people, this community is a big part of their life. It gives them comfort to come here and be accepted. Such people should be allowed to come here and say their opinions without worrying they will get banned.


----------



## CastingPearls

He hasn't even attempted to change his condescending style. 
Not very imaginative at all. <yawwwwwn>

Tony, pass me one of those burgers, please.


----------



## iwantabbw

mossystate said:


> ineversawthemoviegroundhogsdaybutiimaginethisiswhatitwaslike
> 
> 
> alsoyoumusthaveneverbeenbrutallyattackedtocallwhathappenedhereabrutalattackthankyouandtrythevealitisrealtender
> 
> whatthefuckisitwiththespacesinmysentencesmakesmerealmadwhyyesitdoes



maybeyoudontknowmossy butyouaretalkingtoaREALMANhere


----------



## CastingPearls

iwantabbw said:


> All I am saying is I think it was very harsh to put super on a timeout. I read what she wrote, and I do not feel she merited a ban.
> Maybe you guys don't realise, but I think for a lot of fat people, this community is a big part of their life. It gives them comfort to come here and be accepted. Such people should be allowed to come here and say their opinions without worrying they will get banned.


I suppose we should be grateful too.

Deja-vu all over again.


----------



## tonynyc

iwantabbw said:


> All I am saying is I think it was very harsh to put super on a timeout. I read what she wrote, and I do not feel she merited a ban.
> Maybe you guys don't realise, but I think for a lot of fat people, this community is a big part of their life. It gives them comfort to come here and be accepted. Such people should be allowed to come here and say their opinions without worrying they will get banned.




Would you eat a donut burger while riding the train


----------



## tonynyc

CastingPearls said:


> He hasn't even attempted to change his condescending style.
> Not very imaginative at all. <yawwwwwn>
> 
> Tony, pass me one of those burgers, please.



With pleasure and of course some lemonade to wash those bad boys down


----------



## mossystate

iwantabbw said:


> maybeyoudontknowmossy butyouaretalkingtoaREALMANhere



ithinkwemighthavedifferentideasastowhatmakesarealmanbutthanksforyourinput


oh, and if you truly care so much about this thread, and not just about your own upset over certain....things....then you will not try and start the stuff that had other threads closed down...................if you actually care...just sayin'


----------



## BeaBea

iwantabbw said:


> Maybe you guys don't realise, but I think for a lot of fat people, this community is a big part of their life..



Fat people come here? Really? Who the hell said they could come in??? Oh man, forget this shit, I'm not hanging round with teh fatties! Gimme me some of them donut burger bombs and I'm out of here.

Tracey


----------



## iwantabbw

tonynyc said:


> Would you eat a donut burger while riding the train



hey guys, its a tough crowd in here. 

i did take time out to think what some people said and some people did say that they come here for fun and hate fights and so i am going to be doubly careful that stuff i say does not create a bad atmosphere, so i will keep my silence on such topics such as croissants and trains because i don't want any negativity here

i just found it a bit sad that super got a timeout, that was all


----------



## joswitch

iwantabbw said:


> maybeyoudontknowmossy butyouaretalkingtoaREALMANhere









NO I am not calling mossy a shark....


----------



## Paquito

I'd like to think that if I ever trolled a board, was banned, and then came back under a different nickname, I'd have the brainpower to switch up my style and not be glaringly obvious.


----------



## iwantabbw

mossystate said:


> ithinkwemighthavedifferentideasastowhatmakesarealmanbutthanksforyourinput
> 
> 
> oh, and if you truly care so much about this thread, and not just about your own upset over certain....things....then you will not try and start the stuff that had other threads closed down...................if you actually care...just sayin'



allittakesisonenightwithme andthenabbwrealisesexactlywhatarealMANiamsmiles

well, i do care, and so i wont say anything more on this thread.

just a couple of things before i stop posting on this thread

1) instead of having a society where fat people take offence at being told that their weight might be too much and cause them health issues, we should be aiming to have a society where fat does not equate negativity so that if someone says to a fat person that they need to lose weight they do not feel offended just as someone who has a bad tan will not feel offended if someone pointed it out to them - this is the real issue we should all be fighting for to help the fat community
2) i hope when super comes back, all is forgiven and she is integrated back into the society and that people do not hold grudges against her
3) life is too short to fight

thanks


----------



## BeaBea

iwantabbw said:


> hey guys, its a tough crowd in here.


Yes, it's us that are tough. Not you that is being thoughtless. We all apologise, every single one of us.



iwantabbw said:


> i did take time out to think what some people said....


I did take some time out to recognise your typing style. I'm sure I've seen it before! No, no-one tell me, I'm going to have try to remember...

Tracey


----------



## mossystate

iwantabbw said:


> allittakesisonenightwithme andthenabbwrealisesexactlywhatarealMANiamsmiles
> /QUOTE]
> 
> no virgins for me - I have reached my quota for August, and anyway, my voice is hoarse from instructing, and my right hand sore from holding the laser pen


----------



## tonynyc

Paquito said:


> I'd like to think that if I ever trolled a board, was banned, and then came back under a different nickname, I'd have the brainpower to switch up my style and not be glaringly obvious.



It just speaks volumes to *the power of BBW* ... they know ... just like *The Shadow*... and they do have the power to cloud the mind of FAs...


----------



## Paquito

iwantabbw said:


> allittakesisonenightwithme andthenabbwrealisesexactlywhatarealMANiamsmiles
> 
> well, i do care, and so i wont say anything more on this thread.
> 
> just a couple of things before i stop posting on this thread
> 
> 1) instead of having a society where fat people take offence at being told that their weight might be too much and cause them health issues, we should be aiming to have a society where fat does not equate negativity so that if someone says to a fat person that they need to lose weight they do not feel offended just as someone who has a bad tan will not feel offended if someone pointed it out to them - this is the real issue we should all be fighting for to help the fat community
> 2) i hope when super comes back, all is forgiven and she is integrated back into the society and that people do not hold grudges against her
> 3) life is too short to fight
> 
> thanks



Or maybe we could live in a society where fat does not equate negativity so that no one says to a fat person that they need to lose weight without knowing any sort of medical history.


----------



## thatgirl08

Is someone going to PM me or something and let me know who the fuck this is?


----------



## BeaBea

iwantabbw said:


> i hope when super comes back, all is forgiven and she is integrated back into the society and that people do not hold grudges against her



When she comes back will you disappear, or is this going to continue?
Tracey


----------



## LillyBBBW

iwantabbw said:


> hey guys, its a tough crowd in here.
> 
> i did take time out to think what some people said and some people did say that they come here for fun and hate fights and so i am going to be doubly careful that stuff i say does not create a bad atmosphere, so i will keep my silence on such topics such as croissants and trains because i don't want any negativity here
> 
> i just found it a bit sad that super got a timeout, that was all



Yeah people had nearly forgotten about it until you came in here and reignited the whole flame. Brilliant.


----------



## Dromond

thatgirl08 said:


> Is someone going to PM me or something and let me know who the fuck this is?



thinguyforbbw

He's not the sharpest crayon in the box.


----------



## thatgirl08

Yeah I got like seven PMs so I've heard the story.. thanks everyone, haha.


----------



## tonynyc

Dromond said:


> thinguyforbbw
> 
> He's not the sharpest *croissant* in the box.



*T*here fixed it for ya :happy: and this is a plain croissant - no cream cheese, no butter, no jam


----------



## CastingPearls

tonynyc said:


> *T*here fixed it for ya :happy: and this is a plain croissant - no cream cheese, no butter, no jam


no butter? <whimper>


----------



## tonynyc

CastingPearls said:


> no butter? <whimper>



For you ... the works


----------



## imfree

joswitch said:


> I'm a feeder - evil is my job. Bwahahahahahaha!



Every feeder needs, you guessed it,
a song, hellavuh better than a
damned cowbell!

Blue Oyster Cult-Career Of Evil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY3NQUoT89k


----------



## MatthewB

I just went from the first page to this one; it seems what had been a deep, meaningful conversation devolved into... well, _something_.


----------



## imfree

MatthewB said:


> I just went from the first page to this one; it seems what had been a deep, meaningful conversation devolved into... well, _something_.



In some ways, probably a f**kfest.
Maybe even a chain-reaction 
DimmerLand post-wreck.:doh:


----------



## mango

Dromond said:


> thinguyforbbw
> 
> He's not the sharpest crayon in the box.



*Why would thinguyforbbw create an alt account when his main account is not currently banned from Dims?

Why not just contribute to this thread under his original account name? 

:doh:


If iwantbbw is his alt account (now on timeout) then shouldn't the alt account AND his main account - thinguyforbbw be permanently banned??

Such actions are in clear violation of well stated forum rules.



*


----------



## LovelyLiz

I've actually really appreciated this thread. Not because I felt that every post was sensitive or thoughtful or fair (obviously not), but because it covers a really complex issue, and I've appreciated reading many of the different perspectives and the nuance they provided to the conversation.

A post above (that I am too tired to look for and cite) gives a synopsis of the thread that basically makes it a thread just about SuperO's timeout. It is so much more than that. Yes, she started it, and yes it set the tone in a way that didn't open up dialogue as much as I would have liked (and the timeout did happen, and we did talk about the tone of the OP, etc.) - but I think in many places it grew beyond that and became something insightful and helpfully provocative.

So thank you to everyone who shared their own experience, or made their argument, or voiced their own perspective. I especially thank the other fat women and men who gave some history of their thoughts and experiences on this deeply personal issue (and from everyone on all 100 sides of the issue) - it's helped me to continue to think about my body, my health, my fat, etc. Thanks, fellow fat people.


----------



## KHayes666

mango said:


> *Why would thinguyforbbw create an alt account when his main account is not currently banned from Dims?
> 
> Why not just contribute to this thread under his original account name?
> 
> :doh:
> 
> 
> If iwantbbw is his alt account (now on timeout) then shouldn't the alt account AND his main account - thinguyforbbw be permanently banned??
> 
> Such actions are in clear violation of well stated forum rules.
> 
> 
> 
> *



That's the first time I've ever seen a troll create an alternate account when his main one was still active.

Its like, maybe he figured he was already banned without actually logging in.

Trolls, finding new ways to amuse you never knew existed before lol


----------



## Never2fat4me

This has got to be one of the best posts in this thread - thanks mcbeth! What keeps me coming back is to hear all the different opinions, many of which I don't agree with, but nearly all of which are at least interesting and heartfelt.

Chris



mcbeth said:


> I've actually really appreciated this thread. Not because I felt that every post was sensitive or thoughtful or fair (obviously not), but because it covers a really complex issue, and I've appreciated reading many of the different perspectives and the nuance they provided to the conversation.
> 
> A post above (that I am too tired to look for and cite) gives a synopsis of the thread that basically makes it a thread just about SuperO's timeout. It is so much more than that. Yes, she started it, and yes it set the tone in a way that didn't open up dialogue as much as I would have liked (and the timeout did happen, and we did talk about the tone of the OP, etc.) - but I think in many places it grew beyond that and became something insightful and helpfully provocative.
> 
> So thank you to everyone who shared their own experience, or made their argument, or voiced their own perspective. I especially thank the other fat women and men who gave some history of their thoughts and experiences on this deeply personal issue (and from everyone on all 100 sides of the issue) - it's helped me to continue to think about my body, my health, my fat, etc. Thanks, fellow fat people.


----------



## LillyBBBW

mango said:


> *Why would thinguyforbbw create an alt account when his main account is not currently banned from Dims?
> 
> Why not just contribute to this thread under his original account name?
> 
> :doh:
> 
> 
> If iwantbbw is his alt account (now on timeout) then shouldn't the alt account AND his main account - thinguyforbbw be permanently banned??
> 
> Such actions are in clear violation of well stated forum rules.
> 
> 
> 
> *



Thinguy was already pretty much the scourge of this place. His appearance would have attracted instant revulsion from many of the people here and he knows this. But aha! If he comes in with a new id, makes a some cursory posts in other dying threads and then comes here fresh and anew, maybe he might fool others into seriously considering the same smell of garbage that appears when he's around. Didn't work.


----------



## CastingPearls

LillyBBBW said:


> Thinguy was already pretty much the scourge of this place. His appearance would have attracted instant revulsion from many of the people here and he knows this. But aha! If he comes in with a new id, makes a some cursory posts in other dying threads and then comes here fresh and anew, maybe he might fool others into seriously considering the same smell of garbage that appears when he's around. Didn't work.


Not only that but he circumvents the ignore feature by using an alt id. Trolls by definition are attention whores.


----------



## joswitch

CastingPearls said:


> Not only that but he circumvents the ignore feature by using an alt id. Trolls by definition are attention whores.



Whoretrolls. Trollwhores. There's some mental images for ya.


----------



## imfree

I resent this, 'cuz I'mma non-troll 
AttentionWhore, myself.


----------



## CastingPearls

That's debatable, my dear.


----------



## imfree

Hahaha. Who, me? I noticed I didn't
get quoted, either.

Lynyrd Skynyrd-Double Trouble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ptFKBKYbv0&feature=fvst

*Unless you mean I'm trollin' for
trouble, 'cuz I can jump inna'
rose bush 'n' come out smellin'
like shhhhhhhhhhhhh....


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

KHayes666 said:


> That's the first time I've ever seen a troll create an alternate account when his main one was still active.
> 
> Its like, maybe he figured he was already banned without actually logging in.
> 
> Trolls, finding new ways to amuse you never knew existed before lol


I hear people occasionally do this to trick people into thinking they aren't who they really are.... like, to back themselves up in an argument or something when no one else is agreeing with them. 

Oh wait...


----------



## imfree

BigBeautifulMe said:


> I hear people occasionally do this to trick people into thinking they aren't who they really are.... like, to back themselves up in an argument or something when no one else is agreeing with them.
> 
> Oh wait...



I think I've been attacked by a person using multiple
accounts before. Imagine one person commin' at ya'
lookin' like a whole gang!


----------



## LillyBBBW

BigBeautifulMe said:


> I hear people occasionally do this to trick people into thinking they aren't who they really are.... like, to back themselves up in an argument or something when no one else is agreeing with them.
> 
> Oh wait...



LillysMinion1 says: I agree! :wubu:


----------



## CleverBomb

BigBeautifulMe said:


> I hear people occasionally do this to trick people into thinking they aren't who they really are.... like, to back themselves up in an argument or something when no one else is agreeing with them.
> 
> Oh wait...


In these cases, the secondary account is known as a "sock puppet".

-Rusty


----------



## BeaBea

CleverBomb said:


> In these cases, the secondary account is known as a "sock puppet".
> 
> -Rusty



Like, setting up an account for the voices in your head to use? I'd do that, but they dont always agree with me :doh:


----------



## Dr. Feelgood

BeaBea said:


> Like, setting up an account for the voices in your head to use? I'd do that, but they dont always agree with me :doh:



It's probably a good idea to set up a separate account for each of your personalities. I did that years ago. Oddly enough, up until now I thought you were one of them.


----------



## KHayes666

BeaBea said:


> Like, setting up an account for the voices in your head to use? I'd do that, but they dont always agree with me :doh:



I hear voices in my head, they call to me, they understand, they talk to me.


----------



## imfree

The voices in my head have fights that make
Hyde Park look like a church social.


----------



## MizzSnakeBite

joswitch said:


> Whoretrolls. Trollwhores. There's some mental images for ya.



Garden gnomes having sex.


----------



## tonynyc

KHayes666 said:


> I hear voices in my head, they call to me, they understand, they talk to me.



Are you summoning The Viper :bow:


----------



## CastingPearls

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Garden gnomes having sex.


Mine are just casually dating.


----------



## KHayes666

tonynyc said:


> Are you summoning The Viper :bow:



why do you think I'm rKo of The Evolution of F/A?

The present and the future of the community *does pose* lol


----------



## LillyBBBW

Dr. Feelgood said:


> It's probably a good idea to set up a separate account for each of your personalities. I did that years ago. Oddly enough, up until now I thought you were one of them.



No no, that's me. And could you PLEASE cut down on all the red meat. It only works if we ALL agree.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

Garden gnomes are kinda hot.....I mean they are always hard, right? :blush:


----------



## CastingPearls

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Garden gnomes are kinda hot.....I mean they are always hard, right? :blush:


Good point.

HA HA That's what SHE said!


----------



## MizzSnakeBite

esp the ones made of wood


----------



## KHayes666

MizzSnakeBite said:


> esp the ones made of wood



uh huh huh huh, you said "wood" uh huh huh huh


----------



## AtlasD

There are any number of risky vices, activities and lifestyles people choose because they want to- smoking, drinking, drugs, fast cars, skydiving, extreme sports. People engage in these things because they feel good doing so. And as long as they are not hurting anyone else, thats their prerogative.

While people die because they are too fat, they also die because they are too thin. The question for some is- would you rather die fat and happy or thin and miserable?

Having said this, I do have concerns for the twenty-somethings who are aiming for 400 pounds and beyond. For them 5 years is beyond the horizon- but before you know it, 10, 15 or twenty years has gone by, and the effects of leading that lifestyle begin to manifest themseslevs.

Some cannot perceive themselves as beautiful unless they are toothpick thin (and unhealthy). Some feel in order to be beautiful they must be massively fat (and unhealthy). I gained twenty pounds intentionally, and loved the way I felt because of it- but I cannot see myself at 300 pounds and trying to balance at the top of an extension ladder. Just as infinite weight loss is not possible, infinite weight gain is not possible. I believe it is possible to be fat and healthy- up to a point. There is still something to be said for moderation.

What price are we willing to bear for beauty? At what point does more fat merely become more fat?


----------



## Mishty

Blackjack said:


> boogeyman feeder[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> with a giant funnel.....


----------



## wrestlingguy

AtlasD said:


> While people die because they are too fat, they also die because they are too thin. The question for some is- would you rather die fat and happy or thin and miserable?



I suppose that in your world, these are the only 2 options.

They aren't for me. I've seen many fat people die miserable, and thin people die happy as well.

Real life has a way of showing us these other alternatives.

Additionally for some, it's not how you die, but how you live. Happiness is a choice of emotion. While one cannot always affect the physical, you can always affect your emotional being.


----------



## October

wrestlingguy said:


> While one cannot always affect the physical, you can always affect your emotional being.



Yet the physical affects the emotional. Exercise produces endorphins. Carbohydrates temporarily raise serotonin. Opiates make you feel awsomely sedated. Ketogenic diets and diabetes cause the body to produce an abundance of urea which decomposes into ammonia. What you eat, the pills you pop, and the activities you engage in affect your mental well-being. But you are right as well in that your thoughts and feelings also cause biochemical reactions in your brain.


----------



## Dr. Feelgood

wrestlingguy said:


> Happiness is a choice of emotion. While one cannot always affect the physical, you can always affect your emotional being.



If happiness were a choice of emotion, I'm sure there would be a lot less unhappiness about. Our emotions tend to be involuntary: if your adrenal glands shoot a dose of epinephrine into your bloodstream, you're going to feel fear/anger. What we CAN do is engage in thoughts, actions, and situations that tend to produce happy feelings and try to avoid those that make us unhappy. For instance, I've read on several occasions thatpeople who get involved with others or dedicate themselves to helping others are much happier than those who devote their thoughts and actions solely to themselves. In the long run, this kind of action becomes habitual, and happiness becomes one's emotional default state. I think this is the gist of your post, Phil; if I'm wrong, please correct me.


----------



## mithrandirjn

AtlasD said:


> There are any number of risky vices, activities and lifestyles people choose because they want to- smoking, drinking, drugs, fast cars, skydiving, extreme sports. People engage in these things because they feel good doing so. And as long as they are not hurting anyone else, thats their prerogative.
> 
> While people die because they are too fat, they also die because they are too thin. The question for some is- would you rather die fat and happy or thin and miserable?
> 
> Having said this, I do have concerns for the twenty-somethings who are aiming for 400 pounds and beyond. For them 5 years is beyond the horizon- but before you know it, 10, 15 or twenty years has gone by, and the effects of leading that lifestyle begin to manifest themseslevs.
> 
> Some cannot perceive themselves as beautiful unless they are toothpick thin (and unhealthy). Some feel in order to be beautiful they must be massively fat (and unhealthy). I gained twenty pounds intentionally, and loved the way I felt because of it- but I cannot see myself at 300 pounds and trying to balance at the top of an extension ladder. Just as infinite weight loss is not possible, infinite weight gain is not possible. I believe it is possible to be fat and healthy- up to a point. There is still something to be said for moderation.
> 
> What price are we willing to bear for beauty? At what point does more fat merely become more fat?



The only point I take issue with here is about people engaging in unhealthy activities.

Whether we like to admit it or not, it's incredibly difficult to do something destructive to yourself and not at least cause a minor ripple effect in the world around you.

Take smoking, for example; it's mostly a personally unhealthy habit, but what about when most likely become sick from it, need medical treatment? What it you're uncovered? What if you have to use a service that causes others to have to pay for you? In the US, anyone can walk into an emergency room for help, but that costs money, and the money most often comes from your fellow citizens.

Nobody lives in a bubble; actions taken have repercussions, both positive and negative, and we ignore that at our own, and others', peril.


----------



## joswitch

mithrandirjn said:


> The only point I take issue with here is about people engaging in unhealthy activities.
> 
> Whether we like to admit it or not, it's incredibly difficult to do something destructive to yourself and not at least cause a minor ripple effect in the world around you.
> 
> Take smoking, for example; it's mostly a personally unhealthy habit, but what about when most likely become sick from it, need medical treatment? What it you're uncovered? What if you have to use a service that causes others to have to pay for you? In the US, anyone can walk into an emergency room for help, but that costs money, and the money most often comes from your fellow citizens.
> 
> *Nobody lives in a bubble*; actions taken have repercussions, both positive and negative, and we ignore that at our own, and others', peril.


Some people do! And they suffer at the hands of Bubblists!


----------



## PeanutsInColor

joswitch said:


> Some people do! And they suffer at the hands of Bubblists!



.. Is that The Bubble Boy?


----------



## KHayes666

PeanutsInColor said:


> .. Is that The Bubble Boy?



No, its Pee Wee Herman on crack


----------



## PeanutsInColor

KHayes666 said:


> No, its Pee Wee Herman on crack



Memories!


----------



## Dmitra

joswitch said:


> Some people do! And they suffer at the hands of Bubblists!





KHayes666 said:


> No, its Pee Wee Herman on crack



I swear I thought that was k.d. lang for a second or five! Smoke Rings


----------



## joswitch

Dmitra said:


> I swear I thought that was k.d. lang for a second or five! Smoke Rings



No, K.D. Lang looks / looked like a youngish Elvis...


----------



## superodalisque

mcbeth said:


> I've actually really appreciated this thread. Not because I felt that every post was sensitive or thoughtful or fair (obviously not), but because it covers a really complex issue, and I've appreciated reading many of the different perspectives and the nuance they provided to the conversation.
> 
> A post above (that I am too tired to look for and cite) gives a synopsis of the thread that basically makes it a thread just about SuperO's timeout. It is so much more than that. Yes, she started it, and yes it set the tone in a way that didn't open up dialogue as much as I would have liked (and the timeout did happen, and we did talk about the tone of the OP, etc.) - but I think in many places it grew beyond that and became something insightful and helpfully provocative.
> 
> So thank you to everyone who shared their own experience, or made their argument, or voiced their own perspective. I especially thank the other fat women and men who gave some history of their thoughts and experiences on this deeply personal issue (and from everyone on all 100 sides of the issue) - it's helped me to continue to think about my body, my health, my fat, etc. Thanks, fellow fat people.



exactly. people need to talk honestly no matter what that means. platitudes are not going to make it. sometimes you just need to put things out there no matter how painful or uncomfortable they might be. i've seen other threads sort of like this started that were put better at the outstart but the problem with them has been that people had just mainly said what they were expected to say to be polite. they ended up being not very interesting and not very helpful . not very many people participated or posted much. at least this one got some serious conversation going. even if its negative at times its better than nothing. forums shouldn't be a place where people fear conflict. and just because people disagree with you t shouldn't make them your enemy. especially when we are going for the same thing which is the ability for fat people to be truly happy. it only helps if we talk about and hash out all of the different ways that can happen.


----------



## Jes

I have wondered before if the SSBBW forum here, closed to view by anyone not a member (and a member must fit certain requirements) is a more direct and honest place at Dims. I can't know; I'm not a member. Nor am I asking anyone to weigh in (!) because I understand that it's a closed forum. But I do have a feeling that that piece of this puzzle is hidden from view, and I think that's a shame for everyone involved.


----------



## superodalisque

Jes said:


> I have wondered before if the SSBBW forum here, closed to view by anyone not a member (and a member must fit certain requirements) is a more direct and honest place at Dims. I can't know; I'm not a member. Nor am I asking anyone to weigh in (!) because I understand that it's a closed forum. But I do have a feeling that that piece of this puzzle is hidden from view, and I think that's a shame for everyone involved.



i do too. people would learn a lot more about each other and its a shame that SSBBWs aren't comfortable expressing whatever they have to for whatever reason anywhere -especially on this site. its a real loss. but there are a lot of reasons. i understand them all. but i can't help but wish things were different. its too bad people feel the need of that kind of protection here. its not an SSBBWs fault if she feels she needs that. its not her fault if she may be sensitive to what people say. after all not many people seem to truly be looking out for her interest or even less the interest of BHMs. too many people are only interested in selling something, deriving their own personal pleasure from her sufferings or getting off on feeling better than someone else because they might be smaller for now. i get that totally. sometimes people just need a place to look out for themselves which is totally understandable. 

there are times though when we need to be brave just to improve things for someone else. but everyone has to decide when that is for themselves. too bad there hasn't been more of it. it might save somebody. it might cut down on the shocking level of denial and ignorance. so thank you to the people who put it out there honestly whenever they can. i know its not easy. not only are you making yourself vulnerable to people who are exploitive but also making yourself vulnerable to be attacked by people who just want us to shut up. keep doing what you're doing. continue being honest. because yes, it does matter what happens to other people we care about. and yes, we should care about other people like us. otherwise why bother calling yourself a human being? why else bother being here?


----------



## thirtiesgirl

WB, Oda.


----------



## superodalisque

thirtiesgirl said:


> WB, Oda.



thank you hon


----------



## Grundig QD40

superodalisque said:


> thank you hon



Very beautiful in blue


----------



## BeaBea

superodalisque said:


> its a shame that SSBBWs aren't comfortable expressing whatever they have to for whatever reason



Quite simply, it's because of posts like the one below.



Grundig QD40 said:


> Very beautiful in blue



Twenty four pages of raw, honest, emotionally charged, sometimes heated debate and the response it draws from some people here is that you look great in your blue dress. 

You DO look great but :doh::doh::doh:

Tracey


----------



## superodalisque

BeaBea said:


> Quite simply, it's because of posts like the one below.
> 
> 
> 
> Twenty four pages of raw, honest, emotionally charged, sometimes heated debate and the response it draws from some people here is that you look great in your blue dress.
> 
> You DO look great but :doh::doh::doh:
> 
> Tracey



believe me i get ya 100%. but i can't see having someone tell me i'm beautiful in blue crumple me to the extent that i don't say and do what i have to when its really important. i won't let it and just maybe it shouldn't. at least what he said was respectful, even if not relevant. i have my priorities and he has his. i know what mine are. thanks for the compliment but BeaBea is right. this was not the proper place.


----------



## wrestlingguy

superodalisque said:


> believe me i get ya 100%. but i can't see having someone tell me i'm beautiful in blue crumple me to the extent that i don't say and do what i have to when its really important. i won't let it and just maybe it shouldn't. at least what he said was respectful, even if not relevant. i have my priorities and he has his. i know what mine are. thanks for the compliment but BeaBea is right. this was not the proper place.



First off Felecia, welcome back. 

Here's the problem that I have with this guy's action. Compliments are always wonderful. With that said, you have well over 3900 posts all over Dimensions. I'd even think that you have subscribed to most of the threads you've started. Why in God's name would he pick a thread about death to compliment you? I'd love to hear a reason, even a bad one.

I've been here on and off since 1997. During that time I never would think of using a thread with a serious discussion topic to shoot anyone a compliment. It's almost like me going to a Renoir exhibit, standing in front of his "The Bathers" and exclaiming "nice bewbs!"

Then again, I'm pretty sure it's probably been done.


----------



## Jes

superodalisque said:


> i do too. people would learn a lot more about each other and its a shame that SSBBWs aren't comfortable expressing whatever they have to for whatever reason anywhere -especially on this site. its a real loss. but there are a lot of reasons. i understand them all. but i can't help but wish things were different. ?



Exactly. I know the reasons too and I know many are valid. And I don't think everyone has to be upfront about everything she/he feels all the time, personally. I mean, an opinion unvoiced is still a valid opinion. But if the opinion you express changes, depending on the forum in which you express it, then that's troubling.


----------



## superodalisque

Jes said:


> Exactly. I know the reasons too and I know many are valid. And I don't think everyone has to be upfront about everything she/he feels all the time, personally. I mean, an opinion unvoiced is still a valid opinion. But if the opinion you express changes, depending on the forum in which you express it, then that's troubling.



yes thats very troubling because what it says is that real people are shaping their real wishes to somebody else's wishes politics or fantasies. i worry about people feeling free to be true to themselves anywhere as much as possible instead of having to say whats expected.


----------



## superodalisque

wrestlingguy said:


> First off Felecia, welcome back.
> 
> Here's the problem that I have with this guy's action. Compliments are always wonderful. With that said, you have well over 3900 posts all over Dimensions. I'd even think that you have subscribed to most of the threads you've started. Why in God's name would he pick a thread about death to compliment you? I'd love to hear a reason, even a bad one.
> 
> I've been here on and off since 1997. During that time I never would think of using a thread with a serious discussion topic to shoot anyone a compliment. It's almost like me going to a Renoir exhibit, standing in front of his "The Bathers" and exclaiming "nice bewbs!"
> 
> Then again, I'm pretty sure it's probably been done.



i agree with that. at best it smacks of being somehow dismissive of what someone else's real concerns are and at worst like a reminder that the real emphasis should only be about satisfying someone else's desires and not the needs you may have to work through something that has real meaning to yourself personally. i have just gotten to the point that i realize people here are going to do it anyway and i've decided not to let it deter me in what i want to do either way. i'd just personally rather put that energy elsewhere.


----------



## KHayes666

wrestlingguy said:


> First off Felecia, welcome back.
> 
> Here's the problem that I have with this guy's action. Compliments are always wonderful. With that said, you have well over 3900 posts all over Dimensions. I'd even think that you have subscribed to most of the threads you've started. *Why in God's name would he pick a thread about death to compliment you? I'd love to hear a reason, even a bad one.
> *
> I've been here on and off since 1997. During that time I never would think of using a thread with a serious discussion topic to shoot anyone a compliment. It's almost like me going to a Renoir exhibit, standing in front of his "The Bathers" and exclaiming "nice bewbs!"
> 
> Then again, I'm pretty sure it's probably been done.



That's why I have little to no faith in the majority of male F/A.

The other night at a dance this dude was stumbling around trying to impress the ladies by pulling out a 15 year old military school diploma. I turned to my friend Linda and said "Hold on, let me see if I got the A plus spelling test I got from 1st grade, that autta make them swoon."


----------



## Angel

Jes said:


> I have wondered before if the SSBBW forum here, closed to view by anyone not a member (and a member must fit certain requirements) is a more direct and honest place at Dims. I can't know; I'm not a member. Nor am I asking anyone to weigh in (!) because I understand that it's a closed forum. But I do have a feeling that that piece of this puzzle is hidden from view, and I think that's a shame for everyone involved.



What *exactly* do you feel is a shame? Want everyone to be don't-beat-around-the-bush direct, forthcoming with personal information, and 100% brutally and 100% completely honest each and every time they post and in whatever forum or thread they choose to post in? Please go first. Please tell us all *exactly* why you feel it is a shame for everyone involved (and don't forget that the "everyone involved" includes the very SSBBW whose personal lives, personal struggles, and desire for personal privacy are being brought into question yet again). Why do you feel that the intimate and personal and oftentimes humiliating struggles that SSBBW endure on a daily basis needs to be spelled out word for word for you or for any other random person that may read the forums here? Be honest. Personally why is there such an insatiable desire to know those details? Why is there such a sense of entitlement to have that information made available to you or to anyone else? Why do you feel that SSBBW deserve no privacy from prying eyes? Would you want to be stripped naked physically and emotionally just to satisfy the curiosity of others? Would you want anything and everything that you may struggle with in your physical or private life to be casual reading material for other BBW or FA? Do you have any idea of what it feels like to know that there are pervs grasping for and getting off on hearing any little detail of what you feel to be shameful or personally humiliationg? Do you not understand what it's like to try to live life as normally as possible and at the same time be constantly aware that you are on display no matter how hard you just want to blend in and be viewed as normal? Even here at Dimensions we SSBBW are viewed as not normal by some and therefore not entitled to or deserving of the same amount of or degree of privacy as others. That means that some do not view our desires as deserving of any consideration or of deserving any respect whatsoever. In other words, because we are so fat some think that we should have no desire for privacy or right to dignity.

It is truly sad when the dignity of SSBBW is equated with or viewed as nothing more than a missing piece of a puzzle.

It feels so good to know that there are some here who feel I and other SSBBW deserve no privacy, respect, or dignity.

Seriously. There are plenty of SSBBW who hold nothing back; who devulge every possible detail curious minds would devour. Why the insistance that those who don't wish to be open books should be on display? The information is out there if you really want to know. So, then, the question is why the need to know specific details about the very few who participate in that forum? Why does it bother you personally so much that such a private forum exists? Seriously. Why does it bother you so much? I think that is the question you should be asking. That goes for anyone who has issues with such.


----------



## vardon_grip

wrestlingguy said:


> Why in God's name would he pick a thread about death to compliment you? I'd love to hear a reason, even a bad one.



No one said anything about the people who posted pictures of Bubbleboy, Pee Wee Herman, The Shadow Hypno coin, donut burgers, talk of garden gnomes and link youtube videos of a wrestler, Lynyrd Skynyrd and others. 

In the very same thread about *death*...

Why be offended now? Decorum and appropriateness went out the window a long time ago so this criticism seems selective at best. It was made as part of a string of welcome back posts to super-o. 

At worst, it was a minor gaffe. It seems excessive to tear this guy a new one and let stuff like donut burger slide.


----------



## wrestlingguy

So, are you defending them? Is that your point, or did you just want to take a swipe at me? Does the fact that I only reacted to HIS post make him any less wrong? If a cop pulls over a guy who's speeding, even if he was going the same speed as others on the highway, does that make him NOT a speeder? 

I think those other posts were equally offensive. That said, I *expect *douchebaggery from the people who made those posts. 

Some of these people know how to work the "system" here to not get themselves infracted, yet get away with the posts you described. To me, they're beyond repair, a lost cause. There's an old saying that you can't apply logic to insanity, and that's what I'd be attempting to do with those other posters.

In this guy's case, he had made 7 posts before the comment made to SuperO. For me, it's like a kid coming to class on his first day from another school, and immediately sitting down next to the "gang" to ogle and pass comments. Now, he or she may have been a model student in their previous school, so the teacher may feel the need to call that kid out before it gets out of hand.

No, I'm not a teacher, just someone who sees many of the people here for what they really are, and I'm becoming bored with it. 




vardon_grip said:


> No one said anything about the people who posted pictures of Bubbleboy, Pee Wee Herman, The Shadow Hypno coin, donut burgers, talk of garden gnomes and link youtube videos of a wrestler, Lynyrd Skynyrd and others.
> 
> In the very same thread about *death*...
> 
> Why be offended now? Decorum and appropriateness went out the window a long time ago so this criticism seems selective at best. It was made as part of a string of welcome back posts to super-o.
> 
> At worst, it was a minor gaffe. It seems excessive to tear this guy a new one and let stuff like donut burger slide.


----------



## superodalisque

Angel said:


> What *exactly* do you feel is a shame? Want everyone to be don't-beat-around-the-bush direct, forthcoming with personal information, and 100% brutally and 100% completely honest each and every time they post and in whatever forum or thread they choose to post in? Please go first. Please tell us all *exactly* why you feel it is a shame for everyone involved (and don't forget that the "everyone involved" includes the very SSBBW whose personal lives, personal struggles, and desire for personal privacy are being brought into question yet again). Why do you feel that the intimate and personal and oftentimes humiliating struggles that SSBBW endure on a daily basis needs to be spelled out word for word for you or for any other random person that may read the forums here? Be honest. Personally why is there such an insatiable desire to know those details? Why is there such a sense of entitlement to have that information made available to you or to anyone else? Why do you feel that SSBBW deserve no privacy from prying eyes? Would you want to be stripped naked physically and emotionally just to satisfy the curiosity of others? Would you want anything and everything that you may struggle with in your physical or private life to be casual reading material for other BBW or FA? Do you have any idea of what it feels like to know that there are pervs grasping for and getting off on hearing any little detail of what you feel to be shameful or personally humiliationg? Do you not understand what it's like to try to live life as normally as possible and at the same time be constantly aware that you are on display no matter how hard you just want to blend in and be viewed as normal? Even here at Dimensions we SSBBW are viewed as not normal by some and therefore not entitled to or deserving of the same amount of or degree of privacy as others. That means that some do not view our desires as deserving of any consideration or of deserving any respect whatsoever. In other words, because we are so fat some think that we should have no desire for privacy or right to dignity.
> 
> It is truly sad when the dignity of SSBBW is equated with or viewed as nothing more than a missing piece of a puzzle.
> 
> It feels so good to know that there are some here who feel I and other SSBBW deserve no privacy, respect, or dignity.
> 
> Seriously. There are plenty of SSBBW who hold nothing back; who devulge every possible detail curious minds would devour. Why the insistance that those who don't wish to be open books should be on display? The information is out there if you really want to know. So, then, the question is why the need to know specific details about the very few who participate in that forum? Why does it bother you personally so much that such a private forum exists? Seriously. Why does it bother you so much? I think that is the question you should be asking. That goes for anyone who has issues with such.



i can't speak for Jes but only for myself. for me the shame is the shame, the worry of being open, the fear, the tenderness over judgement and the lack of trust. i understand where its coming from but its still always a shame to be mastered by fear whether its warranted or not. its not needing to know specific details. its the pain of knowing there are people who feel they have to keep things a secret particularly here. and, as i think it was Jes who said before, also a shame when and if a person has to have their true self in one place and have to feel they need a different personae somewhere else. public denial is a shame.

its a shame because it would great if there was an atmosphere where people felt safe enough to be totally honest but the truth is, as this thread has proven, is that more often than not people feel someone is out to get them or misuse them. it doesn't matter if you've been around for years and tried to prove where your heart is online and in person people are still distrustful and unable to give most others the benefit of the doubt. every opinion or statement is defaulted to the darkside. i can understand that totally because unfortunately in too many situations that has been a correct assumption.

its a shame because its hard to feel totally safe when there are people who honestly don't understand why anyone should care about anyone else or respect anyone else and continually ask you over and over again WHY they should care. that would frighten anyone. who could blame anyone for keeping their cards close to their vest with that going on? its a real shame because the lack of safety and openess also leads to stagnation and leaves a lot of people stuck in th same place for years. a lot of potential emotional progress for people gets limited. its a shame when fat people feel the very same isolation they do in the rest of society when ideally they should feel much more freedom.


----------



## Angel

superodalisque said:


> i can't speak for Jes but only for myself. for me the shame is the shame, the worry of being open, the fear, the tenderness over judgement and the lack of trust. i understand where its coming from but its still always a shame to be mastered by fear whether its warranted or not. its not needing to know specific details. its the pain of knowing there are people who feel they have to keep things a secret particularly here. and, as i think it was Jes who said before, also a shame when and if a person has to have their true self in one place and have to feel they need a different personae somewhere else. public denial is a shame.
> 
> its a shame because it would great if there was an atmosphere where people felt safe enough to be totally honest but the truth is, as this thread has proven, is that more often than not people feel someone is out to get them or misuse them. it doesn't matter if you've been around for years and tried to prove where your heart is online and in person people are still distrustful and unable to give most others the benefit of the doubt. every opinion or statement is defaulted to the darkside. i can understand that totally because unfortunately in too many situations that has been a correct assumption.
> 
> its a shame because its hard to feel totally safe when there are people who honestly don't understand why anyone should care about anyone else or respect anyone else and continually ask you over and over again WHY they should care. that would frighten anyone. who could blame anyone for keeping their cards close to their vest with that going on? its a real shame because the lack of safety and openess also leads to stagnation and leaves a lot of people stuck in th same place for years. a lot of potential emotional progress for people gets limited. its a shame when fat people feel the very same isolation they do in the rest of society when ideally they should feel much more freedom.




warning: long and rambling 

I do understand what you are saying here, SuperO. I see things a little differently. The word shame has its roots in the emotions that are felt when someone tries to make another aware of something they view as wrong or as unacceptable or as disgraceful. The person trying to make the other aware is the one who has the issues whether the issue involves a physical or outwardly visible characteristic or an action that isn't approved of. It all boils down to someone trying to inflict their disapproval on another and therefore trying to make the person change, conform, feel less than, or feel ashamed. That should not be happening here at Dimensions especially when it comes to size and issues that relate to size or are a direct result of an individual's size. But no matter how hard some here have tried to educate, some people are never going to get it and they are never going to change and they will continue to look down upon and continue to judge those whom they view as too fat while at the same time professing to be (for lack of better terms) an admirer or an ally.

Eventually you learn that you can't change the opinions of others. No matter how nice you are, or how intelligent you are, or how attractive you are, or how much effort you put in trying to be the best you can be at every possible moment, there are always going to be those whose pores seep of negativity and disdain and who never fail to attempt to inflict their caustic outlook onto others. A chubby baby does not feel any shame in being chubby. It's not until that baby is older and until another expresses _*their*_ disapproval or disdain that shame is felt by the child who was once that chubby baby. That child could be perfect in every imaginable way and confident. Once another passes judgement and tries to make the child aware of what the onlooker views as a negative then the child begins to wonder if others see them in the same way. All it takes is one seed of negativity sewn into the life of another to forever alter ones thoughts. You can't erase things you have been told; things you have seen expressed; things you have experienced. No matter how hard we would like to we don't have the option of selective memory. When you eventually realize that you will never be able to change the opinion of others, it is then that you learn how to deal with those opinions. 


I'm the same online as I am in real life. I'm the same person. I don't pretend to be anything I'm not. I'm the same where ever I choose to post. It is *my* choice to reveal or not to reveal as much as I want to or my choice as to when I chose to reveal something. My life is mine. No one has any right to try to coerce me or shame me into revealing something I don't want to. Not everyone hangs out here for the same reasons. There are those who have an incessant desire to know things that are frankly none of their business. Some of us have read posts that have made us all too aware of what some are all about. Do we allow them to control us or master us? No! They say if we are proud and confident we should reveal or give what they want, desire, or ask for. They try to shame us into thinking that there is something wrong with us for not giving them what they want. There is something wrong with us for not being open books? We must be feeling shame for not being open books? I think not. Anyone who tries to make us feel shame for not revealing what whoever is so curious about is the one who has something wrong with them. Trying to make someone feel bad (hint: feel shame!) for not giving you what you want or for not doing what you want is emotional coercion. When you look at it that way, who is it that _should_ be the one feeling shame? Just because someone may choose to not put every aspect of their being on display (whether with words, descriptions, examples, by revealing experiences, or with photos) does not mean they are living in fear, are ashamed, feel shame, or are being mastered by fear. Actually it is the opposite. It *is* being in control; and not giving in to what others may want or desire or feel that they are entitled to know. We each are entitled to deal with things in what ever manner we so choose. It's not always about feeling shame as some seem to think. 

I find it amusing how some think that they should be privy to what is posted in a private forum when they themselves would not reveal similar information to their family or friends if they were in the same boat. Worse, are those who feel entitled to know about personal and intimate issues when they themselves are ashamed of even admitting that they are attracted to fat people in the first place.

Even if everything that has ever been posted in every private forum would have been posted in public, do you think it would have prevented any of the deaths? Yes, bringing it back to the OP. If I were to tell every single detail of my life do you think it would make even one person change their ways or cause them to choose a different path in life? We all hope that we can in some way steer others away from experiencing unnecessary pain. The older I get the more I realize that the only ones we can truly influence are the very young impressionable ones. Beyond a certain age the only lessons learned are those learned from experience. Often times even as adults we sometimes make the same mistakes over and over.  I've realized that the only life I can control is my own; and sometimes I'm not so good at that. No matter how much we want to protect others, as individuals we don't have the power to do so. Everyone has been given free will to do as they please. Sometimes it can be the most difficult thing to do, but we have to allow others to do as they please. We are not responsible for their choices or for the path they choose for their life. Only they themselves are. All we can do is be supportive as a friend, and be there for them if and when they do come to us.


----------



## superodalisque

Angel said:


> warning: long and rambling
> 
> I do understand what you are saying here, SuperO. I see things a little differently. The word shame has its roots in the emotions that are felt when someone tries to make another aware of something they view as wrong or as unacceptable or as disgraceful. The person trying to make the other aware is the one who has the issues whether the issue involves a physical or outwardly visible characteristic or an action that isn't approved of. It all boils down to someone trying to inflict their disapproval on another and therefore trying to make the person change, conform, feel less than, or feel ashamed. That should not be happening here at Dimensions especially when it comes to size and issues that relate to size or are a direct result of an individual's size. But no matter how hard some here have tried to educate, some people are never going to get it and they are never going to change and they will continue to look down upon and continue to judge those whom they view as too fat while at the same time professing to be (for lack of better terms) an admirer or an ally.
> 
> Eventually you learn that you can't change the opinions of others. No matter how nice you are, or how intelligent you are, or how attractive you are, or how much effort you put in trying to be the best you can be at every possible moment, there are always going to be those whose pores seep of negativity and disdain and who never fail to attempt to inflict their caustic outlook onto others. A chubby baby does not feel any shame in being chubby. It's not until that baby is older and until another expresses _*their*_ disapproval or disdain that shame is felt by the child who was once that chubby baby. That child could be perfect in every imaginable way and confident. Once another passes judgement and tries to make the child aware of what the onlooker views as a negative then the child begins to wonder if others see them in the same way. All it takes is one seed of negativity sewn into the life of another to forever alter ones thoughts. You can't erase things you have been told; things you have seen expressed; things you have experienced. No matter how hard we would like to we don't have the option of selective memory. When you eventually realize that you will never be able to change the opinion of others, it is then that you learn how to deal with those opinions.
> 
> 
> I'm the same online as I am in real life. I'm the same person. I don't pretend to be anything I'm not. I'm the same where ever I choose to post. It is *my* choice to reveal or not to reveal as much as I want to or my choice as to when I chose to reveal something. My life is mine. No one has any right to try to coerce me or shame me into revealing something I don't want to. Not everyone hangs out here for the same reasons. There are those who have an incessant desire to know things that are frankly none of their business. Some of us have read posts that have made us all too aware of what some are all about. Do we allow them to control us or master us? No! They say if we are proud and confident we should reveal or give what they want, desire, or ask for. They try to shame us into thinking that there is something wrong with us for not giving them what they want. There is something wrong with us for not being open books? We must be feeling shame for not being open books? I think not. Anyone who tries to make us feel shame for not revealing what whoever is so curious about is the one who has something wrong with them. Trying to make someone feel bad (hint: feel shame!) for not giving you what you want or for not doing what you want is emotional coercion. When you look at it that way, who is it that _should_ be the one feeling shame? Just because someone may choose to not put every aspect of their being on display (whether with words, descriptions, examples, by revealing experiences, or with photos) does not mean they are living in fear, are ashamed, feel shame, or are being mastered by fear. Actually it is the opposite. It *is* being in control; and not giving in to what others may want or desire or feel that they are entitled to know. We each are entitled to deal with things in what ever manner we so choose. It's not always about feeling shame as some seem to think.
> 
> I find it amusing how some think that they should be privy to what is posted in a private forum when they themselves would not reveal similar information to their family or friends if they were in the same boat. Worse, are those who feel entitled to know about personal and intimate issues when they themselves are ashamed of even admitting that they are attracted to fat people in the first place.
> 
> Even if everything that has ever been posted in every private forum would have been posted in public, do you think it would have prevented any of the deaths? Yes, bringing it back to the OP. If I were to tell every single detail of my life do you think it would make even one person change their ways or cause them to choose a different path in life? We all hope that we can in some way steer others away from experiencing unnecessary pain. The older I get the more I realize that the only ones we can truly influence are the very young impressionable ones. Beyond a certain age the only lessons learned are those learned from experience. Often times even as adults we sometimes make the same mistakes over and over.  I've realized that the only life I can control is my own; and sometimes I'm not so good at that. No matter how much we want to protect others, as individuals we don't have the power to do so. Everyone has been given free will to do as they please. Sometimes it can be the most difficult thing to do, but we have to allow others to do as they please. We are not responsible for their choices or for the path they choose for their life. Only they themselves are. All we can do is be supportive as a friend, and be there for them if and when they do come to us.



getting down to semantics as people often do here let me explain the sense that i'm using the word shame in for the most part:* saying something is a shame is not the same as something being shameful. when something is a shame its something regrettable and not something disgraceful. *

i'm not sure being more open would save anyone but if it could help one person make an informed decision that would be a great thing. i'm really not one of those people who actually believes that what people say or do can't make a difference to anyone. i've seen too many good things happen to ever believe that. i'm too much of an optimist. i also believe people are capable of change if thats what they're after. a lot of people seem to come here after some kind of positive change in their life--hopefully we CAN help encourage one. but at least info would get out there for people who might not even know that special forum exists or for people who the members choose not to admit for ideological reasons. i respect that but it also cuts off a lot of people who might need or want the info for reasons that have nothing to do with being exploitive. all i know is that it IS sad people feel like they do need a secret forum. not because its wrong to have one but because they have reasons to want one. that is the part that is a shame as in regrettable.

i'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to do as they please at all. all i'm saying is that in my view its good when people who do know feel responsible for their friends and associates beyond just themselves. discussing some real concerns in an open forum with people who as adults should be able to discuss their different experiences and opinions in order for people who may not have as much exposure to have access to more info to make up their own minds shouldn't have to be some earth shattering event. but unfortunately sometimes it is for various reasons. i know over the few years i've been here i've learned a whole lot i had absolutely no clue about before i came here and it wasn't from silence and secrets. things are shutting down here when it comes to helpful info and thats sad. the irony of others asking to do as they please while being punitive toward me when i do the same is frankly just beyond me.

i know lot of people here have gone through bad stuff. i know people have been mistreated in the past. i understand and empathize with the privacy issues. if there is something someone might not feel comfortable expressing thats fine. but i really don't understand trying to silence or even penalize people who want to and are willing to talk about those very same issues in the open without even referencing anyone else's personal business. it smacks of some kind of censorship i'm very uncomfortable with that i thought i'd never see. 

just like i won't ever force anyone to talk about things they wouldn't want to talk about in the open and punish them for not doing so, i wouldn't ever agree to anyone trying to keep me silent just because something i said made them uncomfortable. i respect that some might not want to talk about the issues in the way that i do but at the same time i would expect to at least have the freedom to discuss those issues and ideas in the open with others who choose to as well without violating anyone. the whole situation has been terribly disappointing to me in many ways. but i guess its something i had to find out about eventually. its just sad to know that its okay for some to do as they please but its not okay for others to do as they please. for me, this has taken on an Orwellian theme. i guess its true. some ideas and ways of being are just more equal than others. when i state my opinion i honestly don't expect people who differ to suddenly believe in mine. i'm experienced enough to know it doesn't work like that. all i want to do is open the door to a discussion not control someone else's thoughts or opinions.


----------



## Never2fat4me

superodalisque said:


> getting down to semantics as people often do here let me explain the sense that i'm using the word shame in for the most part:* saying something is a shame is not the same as something being shameful. when something is a shame its something regrettable and not something disgraceful.*



I agree. "It's a shame" is simply an expression and your choice of words was not worthy of such lengthy criticism. Would the alternative have been to say "it's too bad"? But "bad" means "failing to reach an acceptable standard" or "morally objectionable", so you could have been lambasted for saying SSBBWs were unacceptable or immoral for not sharing. Another alternative would have been "it's unfortunate", but then you could be excoriated for suggesting that SSBBWs were unlucky for being fat.

Some criticisms are reasonable, but reading meaning that is not there into a common expression seems to go a bit far.

Chris


----------



## butch

However, when is it wise to be 'open' to the degree that is being suggested in this exchange on a public forum? If people want to know the true down and dirty lives of fat people, they can, you know, become friends with them, and then, in appropriate venues, the fat people can then share the whole truth to their trusted friends.

The internet is a voracious, mercurial, cold beast, and I don't think I want my most tender, vulnerable moments splattered all over it for the world to see. If we worked harder for real life community, anyone who needed to know the lives of fat people could do so by becoming part of a thriving fat community in their local metropolis, like other groups bound by a singular identity do. 

In the era of reality TV, do many of us now think we're owed intimate details and outrageous moments from everyone around us? Have we lost our idea of privacy and the value of personal privacy? For me, I treat the moments of shame, vulenrability, and insecurity as a commodity in developing closeness with others. Why would I devalue the usefulness of those moments in building relationships by spreading them for all the world to see on the net?

Granted, we each have our own definition of privacy, and in the past I've sure shared a lot of myself here at Dims, but my most private stuff is not for public consumption here.


----------



## CleverBomb

butch said:


> However, when is it wise to be 'open' to the degree that is being suggested in this exchange on a public forum? If people want to know the true down and dirty lives of fat people, they can, you know, become friends with them, and then, in appropriate venues, the fat people can then share the whole truth to their trusted friends.
> 
> The internet is a voracious, mercurial, cold beast, and I don't think I want my most tender, vulnerable moments splattered all over it for the world to see. If we worked harder for real life community, anyone who needed to know the lives of fat people could do so by becoming part of a thriving fat community in their local metropolis, like other groups bound by a singular identity do.
> 
> In the era of reality TV, do many of us now think we're owed intimate details and outrageous moments from everyone around us? Have we lost our idea of privacy and the value of personal privacy? For me, I treat the moments of shame, vulenrability, and insecurity as a commodity in developing closeness with others. Why would I devalue the usefulness of those moments in building relationships by spreading them for all the world to see on the net?
> 
> Granted, we each have our own definition of privacy, and in the past I've sure shared a lot of myself here at Dims, but my most private stuff is not for public consumption here.


This.

There is a time and place for everything.
Sometimes "in front of the whole internet" isn't it.

-Rusty


----------



## BeaBea

CleverBomb said:


> There is a time and place for everything.
> Sometimes "in front of the whole internet" isn't it.
> -Rusty



Amen to that, and to everything Butch said in fact.



superodalisque said:


> i'm not sure being more open would save anyone but if it could help one person make an informed decision that would be a great thing.



I agree, it would be a great thing, and also a worthwhile thing. What I strongly object to though is the suggestion that as an SSBBW it is in some way my duty. 



superodalisque said:


> i respect that some might not want to talk about the issues in the way that i do but at the same time i would expect to at least have the freedom to discuss those issues and ideas in the open with others who choose to as well without violating anyone.



I think you should go right ahead. Post all the intimate and personal details you like and deal with all the public OMG FapFapFap comments and the private messages and requests for pictures that will inevitably follow. Feel free to reassure yourself that you are providing a public service - you probably are but I doubt it will be in quite the way you are hoping.

Tracey


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## Jes

Angel, I'm hearing a lot of your anger, and I don't really want to engage it but I will say this:


Angel said:


> Why do you feel that the intimate and personal and oftentimes humiliating struggles that SSBBW endure on a daily basis needs to be spelled out word for word for you or for any other random person that may read the forums here? Be honest. Personally why is there such an insatiable desire to know those details? Why is there such a sense of entitlement to have that information made available to you or to anyone else?



Exactly. I think you've made my point here exactly. And if you don't understand that, then you don't understand what I, or I suppose SuperO, have been saying. So thanks for your post.


----------



## joswitch

vardon_grip said:


> No one said anything about the people who posted pictures of Bubbleboy, Pee Wee Herman, The Shadow Hypno coin, donut burgers, talk of garden gnomes and link youtube videos of a wrestler, Lynyrd Skynyrd and others.



The serious debate was over at that point.
It has since been re-ignited.
So now people are all pissy at the noob for being inappropriate.
Plus ca change, plus la meme chose for DIMs.


----------



## Carrie

butch said:


> However, when is it wise to be 'open' to the degree that is being suggested in this exchange on a public forum? If people want to know the true down and dirty lives of fat people, they can, you know, become friends with them, and then, in appropriate venues, the fat people can then share the whole truth to their trusted friends.
> <snip>


Exactly, exactly, exactly. 

Most people, present company very much included, share different things with different people in their lives, based on appropriateness and levels of comfort and intimacy. There are things that I might share with a therapist or a support group that I might not even share with a close friend, never mind with a casually friendly neighbor, which, when it comes down to it, most of the people here at Dims are to each other. The fact that the members of the ss forum share some things here out in the open and some things in private does not mean we are one "persona" here and another on the ss board, and I absolutely resent that implication. It means some things we only feel comfortable and safe sharing with people we know will not get their perv on to our challenges, or judge and view us as a cautionary tale, an opportunity for a "there but for the grace of god go I". And honestly, that last one bothers me far more than the occasional inappropriate pervy remark. My sense has always been (and has been reinforced by some of the comments in this thread, sadly) that in this world of "size acceptance", you can always find people smaller than you, thinking, "At least I'm not THAT big," or mentally wagging a finger and tsk-tsking about how we shouldn't have eaten so many cupcakes or some such nonsense. The things shared on the ss board range from mundane to incredibly intimate, and people share those intimate things there specifically because they feel safe enough to do so in that space. If the board wasn't private and protected, it would be pretty much useless to most of us. 

On a similar note, please consider that people are complicated and multi-faceted, and are rarely black or white. I can enjoy my fat body and feel attractive in it and maybe post something to that effect while also cursing my prematurely arthritic knees, brought on, no doubt, by the excess weight I carry around on my frame. One doesn't cancel out the other, and the two experiences *can* co-exist. So this implication that the supersized among us, when posting something fat-positive, are somehow pandering to a nameless, faceless group of FAs coaxing us to eat, and then turning to the ss forum to bemoan our fate as supersized women can, frankly, go shove itself. Many of us truly do have mixed feelings about our fat bodies and our experiences in them, and just because we choose not to share our most private feelings in an insanely public forum does not mean that we are somehow dishonest, or putting on a grand masquerade. There are actually several very good threads here out in the open where some of the negatives of being fat are addressed (Devi's dirty laundry thread, the compulsive eating thread, and a great deal of the health board come to mind), so it's not like such things are taboo, unavailable topics here at Dims. They're here, out in the open. It's only the most private, sensitive things that exist in a protected space - as they deserve to. 

To have this expectation that the supersized among us should "educate" others at the expense of their own privacy and feelings of emotional safety just doesn't fly with me for two reasons: 1). Put quite simply, that's not what this board is for, and it's not why I come here. I mean... yeah. Gasp in horror if you like at my blatant disregard for my apparent responsibility as a supersized woman, but it's true. I come here to talk, laugh, be reminded of the positives of fat, and share the negatives _when I feel comfortable doing so_. But to teach the masses, unsolicited? No, not really. And to put it bluntly, I don't think most people are here to learn about the challenges of being supersized. And that's okay with me. Like I said, I never thought that's what this board was for, nor do I now. Life is full of opportunities to be reminded of those challenges. Go to a Wal-Mart and see a supersized person in a cart, or a handicapped parking space because they can't walk far. Tune into the news and hear the latest story about a rescue crew of some kind unable to help a person too fat for their limited equipment. Go to www.amplestuff.com to get an idea of some of the tools some of us need to help us in our everyday lives. Hell, go to a fat-oriented event and see some of the challenges right in your face. Nobody needs me (and, I daresay, most people here don't want me) to "teach" them about the hardships of being this size. 

Which brings me to 2). I'm actually not sure what kind of difference you folks wishing we would share our private stuff you're hoping for, but whatever it is, I do not believe it would work. As I said earlier in this thread, warning people of a possible future is pretty ineffective, when all is said and done. I'll share my own story to illustrate. I started posting here at Dims in 2005 and went to my first fat-oriented event that same year. It was also about 100 pounds ago. I would click around Dims and see pictures of women much larger than I, or sharing stories about their hardships, and I fully admit to thinking to myself, "I hope I never get that big." I saw women larger than I in scooters at events, unable to walk more than a few steps, and I saw one woman fall who needed 4 men using a tablecloth to help her up. I thought to myself, "I hope I never get that big." I promised myself I would start exercising, eat less, eat healthier, etc., whatever it took to not get "that big". A few months later my then-boyfriend was paralyzed in a freak accident and shortly thereafter two of my beloved dogs died in quick succession, then another the following year. All of my vows to myself and my fervent hopes to never get "that big" flew out the window as I self-medicated with Haagen-Dazs and buried myself in my sedentary work, so as not to have to think about and feel the weight of all of those losses at once. You could have used a time machine to send me ten years in the future and shown me standing above my own grave and it wouldn't have changed what I did and how I lived. My circumstances and my coping mechanisms were what drove my behavior, not some warnings about a vague possible future. Now I'm 100 lbs. heavier, and I am now, ironically, "that big". I know exactly how I got here. I was absolutely aware of the potential difficulties of life as a supersized body; I can't claim ignorance. It didn't make any difference to me, nor do I think me sharing my most private thoughts and experiences with this entire board would be that revelatory and life-altering to the smaller BBWs around here.

I say share what you want here. If someone wants to bare his/her soul, go for it; I've not problem with that. But don't expect me to share more of myself here than you do of smaller BBWs or F/FAs, etc., simply because of my size. That's not a fair expectation.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

Someone please rep Carrie for me. I'll come back and get you later, Carrie - I wish I could rep you 100 times over for that post. Thank you for articulating so eloquently and diligently that which I couldn't even articulate in my own mind.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Someone please rep Carrie for me. I'll come back and get you later, Carrie - I wish I could rep you 100 times over for that post. Thank you for articulating so eloquently and diligently that which I couldn't even articulate in my own mind.



Dammit! I tried but it says I need to whore myself around more before I get her again!


----------



## BeaBea

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> Dammit! I tried but it says I need to whore myself around more before I get her again!



Likewise! Carrie for President, Angel for Vice President!


----------



## D_A_Bunny

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Someone please rep Carrie for me. I'll come back and get you later, Carrie - I wish I could rep you 100 times over for that post. Thank you for articulating so eloquently and diligently that which I couldn't even articulate in my own mind.



Yes, thank you Carrie. You have said exactly what I would want to say but could never say nearly as well as you have.



BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> Dammit! I tried but it says I need to whore myself around more before I get her again!



I tried too dagnabit. Must go rep others first.



BeaBea said:


> Likewise! Carrie for President, Angel for Vice President!



They have my vote.


----------



## cinnamitch

D_A_Bunny said:


> Yes, thank you Carrie. You have said exactly what I would want to say but could never say nearly as well as you have.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried too dagnabit. Must go rep others first.
> 
> 
> 
> They have my vote.




Got her repped!


----------



## superodalisque

Jes said:


> Angel, I'm hearing a lot of your anger, and I don't really want to engage it but I will say this:
> 
> 
> Exactly. I think you've made my point here exactly. And if you don't understand that, then you don't understand what I, or I suppose SuperO, have been saying. So thanks for your post.



yes i agree with that. i think its a matter of individual differences. i don't know but i've never felt humiliation over the particulars of being an SBBW and the only reason i don't say more in the open is because when i do try to push those boundaries its been made known to me that its not appreciated.


----------



## AnnMarie

Can't get her either, but really glad I dont have to type all that out now. If I wasn't on my phone I'd be quoting and heavily emphasizing all the parts about personas and the implication that there is misrepresenting going on by some of us. 

Don't you dare assume to speak for me or my feelings. The insinuation that ss women are being somehow either duplicitous or so herd-driven that they're talking out both sides of their mouths is one of the lowest things I've seen. 

It's a new low in relation to the "if only those dumb superfatties understood life like I do" campaign. It's not about taboo or unwillingness, it's about everyone doing as they see fit, for themselves, and everyone else getting the hell over themselves.


----------



## superodalisque

butch said:


> However, when is it wise to be 'open' to the degree that is being suggested in this exchange on a public forum? If people want to know the true down and dirty lives of fat people, they can, you know, become friends with them, and then, in appropriate venues, the fat people can then share the whole truth to their trusted friends.
> 
> The internet is a voracious, mercurial, cold beast, and I don't think I want my most tender, vulnerable moments splattered all over it for the world to see. If we worked harder for real life community, anyone who needed to know the lives of fat people could do so by becoming part of a thriving fat community in their local metropolis, like other groups bound by a singular identity do.
> 
> In the era of reality TV, do many of us now think we're owed intimate details and outrageous moments from everyone around us? Have we lost our idea of privacy and the value of personal privacy? For me, I treat the moments of shame, vulenrability, and insecurity as a commodity in developing closeness with others. Why would I devalue the usefulness of those moments in building relationships by spreading them for all the world to see on the net?
> 
> Granted, we each have our own definition of privacy, and in the past I've sure shared a lot of myself here at Dims, but my most private stuff is not for public consumption here.



i can understand this but my question is for those who are unwilling why the restraint of those who aren't? i don't feel anyone owes openess at all. no one is or was forcing anyone to say anything they didn't want to against their will. i didn't even ask for any of the "down and dirty" as you've put it just thoughts impressions and feelings. anything else anyone chose to reveal would be at their own discretion and comfort level. i'm just uncomfortable with the whole idea that there is somewhat of a culture of fat in hiding. and i think i'm personally just too impatient with all of the fear to be totally objective about any of it. i'm just so tired of the "OMG somebody may say something bad about me or make fun of me because i'm fat." its not that i don't empathize at all its just disheartening seeing people having their lives ruled by that and being expected to kneel to that fear yourself even when its not in your nature.


----------



## Angel

Never2fat4me said:


> I agree. "It's a shame" is simply an expression and your choice of words was not worthy of such lengthy criticism. Would the alternative have been to say "it's too bad"? But "bad" means "failing to reach an acceptable standard" or "morally objectionable", so you could have been lambasted for saying SSBBWs were unacceptable or immoral for not sharing. Another alternative would have been "it's unfortunate", but then you could be excoriated for suggesting that SSBBWs were unlucky for being fat.
> 
> Some criticisms are reasonable, but reading meaning that is not there into a common expression seems to go a bit far.
> 
> Chris



Your assumption was/is wrong. I was not criticising SuperO or anything in her response to my post. Go back and read (I think it was) my second sentence. I said that I undserstood (what she was saying). What followed that sentence was dialogue which was an expression of *my* thoughts and feelings about how/why *I* see things a little differently. My post was NOT being critical of SuperO or intended to be criticism towards her. I believe and hope that she knew that.

You, sir, are the one "reading meaning that is not there" in this instance.


----------



## superodalisque

Carrie said:


> Exactly, exactly, exactly.
> 
> Most people, present company very much included, share different things with different people in their lives, based on appropriateness and levels of comfort and intimacy. There are things that I might share with a therapist or a support group that I might not even share with a close friend, never mind with a casually friendly neighbor, which, when it comes down to it, most of the people here at Dims are to each other. The fact that the members of the ss forum share some things here out in the open and some things in private does not mean we are one "persona" here and another on the ss board, and I absolutely resent that implication. It means some things we only feel comfortable and safe sharing with people we know will not get their perv on to our challenges, or judge and view us as a cautionary tale, an opportunity for a "there but for the grace of god go I". And honestly, that last one bothers me far more than the occasional inappropriate pervy remark. My sense has always been (and has been reinforced by some of the comments in this thread, sadly) that in this world of "size acceptance", you can always find people smaller than you, thinking, "At least I'm not THAT big," or mentally wagging a finger and tsk-tsking about how we shouldn't have eaten so many cupcakes or some such nonsense. The things shared on the ss board range from mundane to incredibly intimate, and people share those intimate things there specifically because they feel safe enough to do so in that space. If the board wasn't private and protected, it would be pretty much useless to most of us.
> 
> On a similar note, please consider that people are complicated and multi-faceted, and are rarely black or white. I can enjoy my fat body and feel attractive in it and maybe post something to that effect while also cursing my prematurely arthritic knees, brought on, no doubt, by the excess weight I carry around on my frame. One doesn't cancel out the other, and the two experiences *can* co-exist. So this implication that the supersized among us, when posting something fat-positive, are somehow pandering to a nameless, faceless group of FAs coaxing us to eat, and then turning to the ss forum to bemoan our fate as supersized women can, frankly, go shove itself. Many of us truly do have mixed feelings about our fat bodies and our experiences in them, and just because we choose not to share our most private feelings in an insanely public forum does not mean that we are somehow dishonest, or putting on a grand masquerade. There are actually several very good threads here out in the open where some of the negatives of being fat are addressed (Devi's dirty laundry thread, the compulsive eating thread, and a great deal of the health board come to mind), so it's not like such things are taboo, unavailable topics here at Dims. They're here, out in the open. It's only the most private, sensitive things that exist in a protected space - as they deserve to.
> 
> To have this expectation that the supersized among us should "educate" others at the expense of their own privacy and feelings of emotional safety just doesn't fly with me for two reasons: 1). Put quite simply, that's not what this board is for, and it's not why I come here. I mean... yeah. Gasp in horror if you like at my blatant disregard for my apparent responsibility as a supersized woman, but it's true. I come here to talk, laugh, be reminded of the positives of fat, and share the negatives _when I feel comfortable doing so_. But to teach the masses, unsolicited? No, not really. And to put it bluntly, I don't think most people are here to learn about the challenges of being supersized. And that's okay with me. Like I said, I never thought that's what this board was for, nor do I now. Life is full of opportunities to be reminded of those challenges. Go to a Wal-Mart and see a supersized person in a cart, or a handicapped parking space because they can't walk far. Tune into the news and hear the latest story about a rescue crew of some kind unable to help a person too fat for their limited equipment. Go to www.amplestuff.com to get an idea of some of the tools some of us need to help us in our everyday lives. Hell, go to a fat-oriented event and see some of the challenges right in your face. Nobody needs me (and, I daresay, most people here don't want me) to "teach" them about the hardships of being this size.
> 
> Which brings me to 2). I'm actually not sure what kind of difference you folks wishing we would share our private stuff you're hoping for, but whatever it is, I do not believe it would work. As I said earlier in this thread, warning people of a possible future is pretty ineffective, when all is said and done. I'll share my own story to illustrate. I started posting here at Dims in 2005 and went to my first fat-oriented event that same year. It was also about 100 pounds ago. I would click around Dims and see pictures of women much larger than I, or sharing stories about their hardships, and I fully admit to thinking to myself, "I hope I never get that big." I saw women larger than I in scooters at events, unable to walk more than a few steps, and I saw one woman fall who needed 4 men using a tablecloth to help her up. I thought to myself, "I hope I never get that big." I promised myself I would start exercising, eat less, eat healthier, etc., whatever it took to not get "that big". A few months later my then-boyfriend was paralyzed in a freak accident and shortly thereafter two of my beloved dogs died in quick succession, then another the following year. All of my vows to myself and my fervent hopes to never get "that big" flew out the window as I self-medicated with Haagen-Dazs and buried myself in my sedentary work, so as not to have to think about and feel the weight of all of those losses at once. You could have used a time machine to send me ten years in the future and shown me standing above my own grave and it wouldn't have changed what I did and how I lived. My circumstances and my coping mechanisms were what drove my behavior, not some warnings about a vague possible future. Now I'm 100 lbs. heavier, and I am now, ironically, "that big". I know exactly how I got here. I was absolutely aware of the potential difficulties of life as a supersized body; I can't claim ignorance. It didn't make any difference to me, nor do I think me sharing my most private thoughts and experiences with this entire board would be that revelatory and life-altering to the smaller BBWs around here.
> 
> I say share what you want here. If someone wants to bare his/her soul, go for it; I've not problem with that. But don't expect me to share more of myself here than you do of smaller BBWs or F/FAs, etc., simply because of my size. That's not a fair expectation.



i respect everything you just said and it makes complete sense to me. but, you've just revealed quite a lot of personal information. if it wasn't for the point of communication and maybe changing or adding to someone else's perceptions about how a woman as an SSBBW thinks or just how you feel personally what was it for? what else are forums for? they are all very personal in some degree even though they are public. thats their nature and their attraction. anyone who doesn't think so hasn't been reading many of them. i don't think the problem is really personal revelation. nobody is going to say anything in public about their private life that they don't really want to anyway. i think the problem is the fear of a certain types of revelations and the need lots of people have to monitor exactly which are acceptable and which are not for others.


----------



## superodalisque

Angel said:


> Your assumption was/is wrong. I was not criticising SuperO or anything in her response to my post. Go back and read (I think it was) my second sentence. I said that I undserstood (what she was saying). What followed that sentence was dialogue which was an expression of *my* thoughts and feelings about how/why *I* see things a little differently. My post was NOT being critical of SuperO or intended to be criticism towards her. I believe and hope that she knew that.
> 
> You, sir, are the one "reading meaning that is not there" in this instance.



i did understand. i know the spirit you post in and i know you respect other posters and their opinions even when you disagree.


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## Carrie

superodalisque said:


> i respect everything you just said and it makes complete sense to me. but, you've just revealed quite a lot of personal information. if it wasn't for the point of communication and maybe changing or adding to someone else's perceptions about how a woman as an SSBBW thinks or just how you feel personally what was it for? what else are forums for? they are all very personal in some degree even though they are public. thats their nature and their attraction. anyone who doesn't think so hasn't been reading many of them. i don't think the problem is really personal revelation. nobody is going to say anything in public about their private life that they don't really want to anyway. i think the problem is the fear of a certain types of revelations and the need lots of people have to monitor exactly which are acceptable and which are not for others.


I shared that particular story because I felt comfortable sharing it, and because I felt it helped to illustrate my point. I share stuff when and where I want to, not because somebody thinks I am morally obligated to. That's about it. I have shared many personal things here over the years, some in the ss forum, some not. 

Also, dare to consider the possibility that the things shared in the ss forum are not always - in fact, frequently aren't - things that you seem to believe we are too ashamed of or fearful to share in an open forum. It's not. A lot of it is just too close to our hearts and sometimes too painful to spill in front of thousands of readers. I honestly cannot understand how you can possibly resent the fact that we have a safe place that is conducive to sharing those things, things that make us intensely emotionally vulnerable, that would likely otherwise never even be said. And I know you're going to swoop in and say that you don't, but all of your words say otherwise.


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## superodalisque

Carrie said:


> I shared that particular story because I felt comfortable sharing it, and because I felt it helped to illustrate my point. I share stuff when and where I want to, not because somebody thinks I am morally obligated to. That's about it. I have shared many personal things here over the years, some in the ss forum, some not.
> 
> Also, dare to consider the possibility that the things shared in the ss forum are not always - in fact, frequently aren't - things that you seem to believe we are too ashamed of or fearful to share in an open forum. It's not. A lot of it is just too close to our hearts and sometimes too painful to spill in front of thousands of readers. I honestly cannot understand how you can possibly resent the fact that we have a safe place that is conducive to sharing those things, things that make us intensely emotionally vulnerable, that would likely otherwise never even be said. And I know you're going to swoop in and say that you don't, but all of your words say otherwise.



i don't resent it. i only resent being being told what I should or should not be talking about in a public forum.


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## Angel

Jes said:


> Angel, I'm hearing a lot of your anger, and I don't really want to engage it but I will say this:
> 
> 
> Exactly. I think you've made my point here exactly. And if you don't understand that, then you don't understand what I, or I suppose SuperO, have been saying. So thanks for your post.



I do understand SuperO's thoughts/feelings. I also understand that some found her thoughts/feelings and how they were articulated to be offensive. I do understand why others felt offended. I really do. I have expressed to her and to others that her words were not offensive to me personally and why. 

What you are seeing as anger is more about the disbelief that some here are so *insensitive*. And it's not just some FAs. And it's not just those with the "I'd never allow myself to become that fat" attitude or the "how could she allow herself to get so fat?" attitude. Their insensitivity is expected. It's the ones who claim or profess to be understanding and sympathetic or empathetic yet still yearn for every intimate private detail to be made available to them. For whatever reason some here just cannot or will not let that go. 

If someone is truly understanding and empathetic they would comprehend the reasonings behind the desire for privacy and would want others to be able to continue to possess their dignity; and they would STOP bringing the private SS Issues forum up; and they would STOP trying to get their digs in that such a forum exists. 

If someone is truly understanding and empathetic they would just accept the facts and let it go; and then go on about *their business* and go on with *their personal life* and STOP with the incessant badgering that the forum exists as is. And YES it is badgering at this point.


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## Lovelyone

I have read all the postings in this thread and I want to post as a person who has never posted on the ssbbw forum. No one ever invited me to post there even though I do fit the qualifications probably more than some of the ones that DO post there. DO I miss not being invited? No. Why? I am guessing that there aren't a whole lot of things that are posted there that I probably havent already lived, felt, experienced, cried over, felt anguish for, or needed answers to at some point in my past. However, even though there probably arent things on that forum that I haven't already experienced, does not mean that I dont have advice, or thoughts on the subjects that come up on those forums? DO I wish that I had been invited? Yes. Why? Because some of the things that I have experienced as a supersized woman might be a little enlightening to someoone else who isn't quite there yet. 
I am perhaps (or at least I consider myself to be) one of the largest women who post on these forums. Am I knowledgable on where to buy furniture, clothing, hygiene and other items that an SSBBW might need at some point in her life? Yes. Some people just aren't comfortable asking those types of questions in the open for all to see. I, personally--don't feel a need to go to a seperate forum to post that I have trouble walking sometimes, and that I have difficulty finding underpants to fit my huge enormous ass (yes, I can hear the fapping from here). I dont have any issue in talking about how I stay clean and try my damndest NOT to fit that "the fat girl must smell dirty from her rolls" stereotype. Other people however, may not be as open to sharing such information in public. I cannot condemn them. I am happy that they have a place where they can go and ask questions and share information and life stories with other knowledgable women--away from prying eyes. Lord knows that when I was younger I wished I had someone to help me along in that way.


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## Angel

Lovelyone, I'm pretty sure the SS Issues forum came into existance during the time when you were not posting on the forums. As for invitations, I never received one. After I learned that the forum did exist I sent a private message to (I believe) Conrad and to the forum mod with a request to join.


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## joswitch

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Someone please rep Carrie for me. I'll come back and get you later, Carrie - I wish I could rep you 100 times over for that post. Thank you for articulating so eloquently and diligently that which I couldn't even articulate in my own mind.



Sorry, I too, am out of Carrie rep...
It's her fault for posting so much thoughtful and thought provoking stuff...
*hug* for Carrie instead....


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

Lovelyone said:


> I have read all the postings in this thread and I want to post as a person who has never posted on the ssbbw forum. No one ever invited me to post there even though I do fit the qualifications probably more than some of the ones that DO post there. DO I miss not being invited? No. Why? I am guessing that there aren't a whole lot of things that are posted there that I probably havent already lived, felt, experienced, cried over, felt anguish for, or needed answers to at some point in my past. However, even though there probably arent things on that forum that I haven't already experienced, does not mean that I dont have advice, or thoughts on the subjects that come up on those forums? DO I wish that I had been invited? Yes. Why? Because some of the things that I have experienced as a supersized woman might be a little enlightening to someoone else who isn't quite there yet.
> I am perhaps (or at least I consider myself to be) one of the largest women who post on these forums. Am I knowledgable on where to buy furniture, clothing, hygiene and other items that an SSBBW might need at some point in her life? Yes. Some people just aren't comfortable asking those types of questions in the open for all to see. I, personally--don't feel a need to go to a seperate forum to post that I have trouble walking sometimes, and that I have difficulty finding underpants to fit my huge enormous ass (yes, I can hear the fapping from here). I dont have any issue in talking about how I stay clean and try my damndest NOT to fit that "the fat girl must smell dirty from her rolls" stereotype. Other people however, may not be as open to sharing such information in public. I cannot condemn them. I am happy that they have a place where they can go and ask questions and share information and life stories with other knowledgable women--away from prying eyes. Lord knows that when I was younger I wished I had someone to help me along in that way.



Terri, you get access by asking for it and meeting whatever the qualifications are.  It's not invite-only. Invites don't (usually) go out unless the mods see someone post something on the boards and it occurs to them that they know that person and they might benefit from the forum. Doesn't happen that way often.


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## BeaBea

superodalisque said:


> i think the problem is the fear of a certain types of revelations and the need lots of people have to monitor exactly which are acceptable and which are not for others.



For someone who is all about the personal revelation you seem to spend a lot of time complaining about other peoples failings and very little actually addressing the issues yourself. Maybe you should just go ahead and say whatever it is that you feel needs to be said about 'supersize fatness'?

I'm happy for you to reveal anything you like, just dont assume that you speak for me, and dont assume that my unwillingness to participate is any of your damn business.

Tracey


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## joswitch

superodalisque said:


> i can understand this but my question is for those who are unwilling why the restraint of those who aren't? i don't feel anyone owes openess at all. no one is or was forcing anyone to say anything they didn't want to against their will. i didn't even ask for any of the "down and dirty" as you've put it just thoughts impressions and feelings. anything else anyone chose to reveal would be at their own discretion and comfort level. i'm just uncomfortable with the whole idea that there is somewhat of a culture of fat in hiding. and i think i'm personally just too impatient with all of the fear to be totally objective about any of it. i'm just so tired of the "OMG somebody may say something bad about me or make fun of me because i'm fat." its not that i don't empathize at all its just disheartening seeing people having their lives ruled by that and being expected to kneel to that fear yourself even when its not in your nature.



I don't know that it's necessarily "fear" as such? (peeps jump in and correct me if I'm wrong)... some people are just more open and unembarrassable than others...

Among a cross section of my friends I'm towards the very open end of the scale, I'm comfortable talking about all kindsa personal things with oooh, most anybody not overtly hostile... That said, I still have some boundaries....

In contrast I have quiet, shy friends who keep their cards very close to their chests with all but say, people like me, who they've known for half their lives....

No reason why big people wouldn't have a similar spectrum of need-for-privacy (or not) to the rest of the population, even without the fear factor...


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## Jes

Lovelyone said:


> Lord knows that when I was younger I wished I had someone to help me along in that way.



Ain't that the god's honest truth? I would've liked that, too. Even though I got online in 1988, so I did 'grow up' with the internet to some extent, the WWW showed up too late for a lot of my questions and info needs!


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## Ruby Ripples

Lovelyone said:


> I have read all the postings in this thread and I want to post as a person who has never posted on the ssbbw forum. No one ever invited me to post there even though I do fit the qualifications probably more than some of the ones that DO post there. DO I miss not being invited? No. Why? I am guessing that there aren't a whole lot of things that are posted there that I probably havent already lived, felt, experienced, cried over, felt anguish for, or needed answers to at some point in my past. However, even though there probably arent things on that forum that I haven't already experienced, does not mean that I dont have advice, or thoughts on the subjects that come up on those forums? DO I wish that I had been invited? Yes. Why? Because some of the things that I have experienced as a supersized woman might be a little enlightening to someoone else who isn't quite there yet.
> I am perhaps (or at least I consider myself to be) one of the largest women who post on these forums. Am I knowledgable on where to buy furniture, clothing, hygiene and other items that an SSBBW might need at some point in her life? Yes. Some people just aren't comfortable asking those types of questions in the open for all to see. I, personally--don't feel a need to go to a seperate forum to post that I have trouble walking sometimes, and that I have difficulty finding underpants to fit my huge enormous ass (yes, I can hear the fapping from here). I dont have any issue in talking about how I stay clean and try my damndest NOT to fit that "the fat girl must smell dirty from her rolls" stereotype. Other people however, may not be as open to sharing such information in public. I cannot condemn them. I am happy that they have a place where they can go and ask questions and share information and life stories with other knowledgable women--away from prying eyes. Lord knows that when I was younger I wished I had someone to help me along in that way.



i never got any invitation. I don't actually know who did. I applied to join and was immediately accepted. Please don't feel left out! Most of the people that I know who are on there asked to be let in! I never got the feeling that it was some invite only event, just an area with certain criteria for admission. Come and join in. 

As for what someone else said, I am actually FURIOUS at the allegation that we are somehow gathered in the SSBBW forum discussing stuff we are "ashamed" of. WTF??? I'm not ashamed of anything, or "scared". I just don't want certain men from this site having a wank over my supersize living. Simples. And its none of their damn business! EVERY time we did a supersize issues style thread in the open forum, we would be in the middle of a serious discussion and then suddenly BAM! there would be a post from some drooling troglodyte going "mmmm thats so hot, it turns me on" when it was a thread about oedematous legs or something! This is the last place that we should be made to feel bad for wanting some privacy, Im disgusted. Even worse being so confidently accused of this shame etc by another supersize woman. I never thought I'd see the day.


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## SuperSizedAngie

Angel said:


> Lovelyone, I'm pretty sure the SS Issues forum came into existance during the time when you were not posting on the forums. As for invitations, I never received one. After I learned that the forum did exist I sent a private message to (I believe) Conrad and to the forum mod with a request to join.





Wait, there's a SS forum?


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## AnnMarie

For any supersized women who didn't know, it's not by invitation unless we happen to think "hmm, that person could probably join", it is by request. Please send a PM to SoVerySoft, myself, or Carrie if you've interest in becoming a member of the SS forum.

Thanks.


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## CleverBomb

Ruby Ripples said:


> As for what someone else said, I am actually FURIOUS at the allegation that we are somehow gathered in the SSBBW forum discussing stuff we are "ashamed" of. WTF??? I'm not ashamed of anything, or "scared".



I'm not ashamed of my finances. Doesn't mean I have to post my credit card statement on the internet though. Which is pretty much the point you were making, in a different context. 

-Rusty


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## liz (di-va)

There's no Hidden Truth at Dims. About fatness, I mean. I've never seen anywhere where people discuss body change, weight loss surgery, limitations of size, ambivalent feelings about fat, fat fetishes, morbidity, every little bit of fatness, with more attention than this place. 

I don't mean that it isn't a chaotic mess, and its editorial position (imho) is ill-defined and contradictory at times, and everything isn't aligned so that everyone can see everything, and wanks are ever wanks--but when is anything that clear? Especially size? Which shows up in a million ways in a million different people's lives?

Dimensions is NOT the only site related to size, never has been. Sometimes the discussion here makes it sound like we're on a desert island and this is all we have...and we're all arguing about the one thing we actually have in common, rather than all the things we don't. Perhaps things would ease up if people looked around?


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## Lovelyone

AnnMarie said:


> For any supersized women who didn't know, it's not by invitation unless we happen to think "hmm, that person could probably join", it is by request. Please send a PM to SoVerySoft, myself, or Carrie if you've interest in becoming a member of the SS forum.
> 
> Thanks.



Thanks to everyone (Angel, BigbeautifulME, Jes and Katy) for letting me know about the invite only thing being a falsehood. I really was under the impression that it was invite only and that's why I never investigated it. 

Thanks for clearing that up AnnMarie.


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## superodalisque

Lovelyone said:


> I have read all the postings in this thread and I want to post as a person who has never posted on the ssbbw forum. No one ever invited me to post there even though I do fit the qualifications probably more than some of the ones that DO post there. DO I miss not being invited? No. Why? I am guessing that there aren't a whole lot of things that are posted there that I probably havent already lived, felt, experienced, cried over, felt anguish for, or needed answers to at some point in my past. However, even though there probably arent things on that forum that I haven't already experienced, does not mean that I dont have advice, or thoughts on the subjects that come up on those forums? DO I wish that I had been invited? Yes. Why? Because some of the things that I have experienced as a supersized woman might be a little enlightening to someoone else who isn't quite there yet.
> I am perhaps (or at least I consider myself to be) one of the largest women who post on these forums. Am I knowledgable on where to buy furniture, clothing, hygiene and other items that an SSBBW might need at some point in her life? Yes. Some people just aren't comfortable asking those types of questions in the open for all to see. I, personally--don't feel a need to go to a seperate forum to post that I have trouble walking sometimes, and that I have difficulty finding underpants to fit my huge enormous ass (yes, I can hear the fapping from here). I dont have any issue in talking about how I stay clean and try my damndest NOT to fit that "the fat girl must smell dirty from her rolls" stereotype. Other people however, may not be as open to sharing such information in public. I cannot condemn them. I am happy that they have a place where they can go and ask questions and share information and life stories with other knowledgable women--away from prying eyes. Lord knows that when I was younger I wished I had someone to help me along in that way.



exactly this


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## superodalisque

BeaBea said:


> For someone who is all about the personal revelation you seem to spend a lot of time complaining about other peoples failings and very little actually addressing the issues yourself. Maybe you should just go ahead and say whatever it is that you feel needs to be said about 'supersize fatness'?
> 
> I'm happy for you to reveal anything you like, just dont assume that you speak for me, and dont assume that my unwillingness to participate is any of your damn business.
> 
> Tracey



no one is trying to make you participate, just sorry you have legitimate reasons you feel you can't.


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## Angel

SS Mods, I hope it's OK for me to clarify something here.



SuperSizedAngie said:


> Wait, there's a SS forum?



It's not just a SS Forum. It's a SS *Issues* forum.



Now to clarify and set the record straight as to some of the things that have been alluded to recently in this thread:

The Super Sized Issues Forum is a private (not secret!) forum for SS females to discuss *issues* relating to living live as a super sized female in a super sized body. Often times the *issues* that SS females are faced with are of an intimate nature and _that_ is why there is a need for privacy. It isn't because SS females are ashamed of themselves or of their bodies or of their lives. It isn't because SS females don't want to help or share helpful advice with other SS females. We do want to share helpful advice with our SS sisters, but we want it to be in private because of the intimate nature and/or subject matter. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT some secret social club. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT some type of party cenral where members get to pick and choose who they want to let in or not let in. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT a playhouse or a forum for only the popular and well liked to the exclusion of all others. The SS *Issues* forum exists and was created for a specific purpose, and again, as a place where SS females can discuss *issues* relating to being supersized in a private setting. 

If anyone has a problem with the existance of the forum or with the fact that it is a private forum for SS females only please voice your complaints to the Webmaster because the forum is as he intended - and intends for - it to be.


----------



## BeaBea

superodalisque said:


> no one is trying to make you participate, just sorry you have legitimate reasons you feel you can't.



That's not what I said. There are no reasons I -cant- reveal everything here, but plenty of reasons why I -wont-. Are you getting the difference yet? I'll say it again in a slightly different way - its not a question of ability or willingness to express myself, just a question of where I share the information and with whom. Would you like a third analogy? I am perfectly ABLE to have sex with everyone who asks me, and yet I CHOOSE not to. I hope we've cleared that up once and for all? 

Now, stop pointing the finger at all of us and start looking to yourself. We're waiting for you to make your personal announcements about fatness but you're still wrapped up in expressing sorrow over how the rest of us choose to conduct ourselves. Have you actually got anything to say thats going to thrill, shock, impress or inform us or is this entire thread just your way of expressing your unhappiness at being fat? 

Tracey


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## superodalisque

BeaBea said:


> That's not what I said. There are no reasons I -cant- reveal everything here, but plenty of reasons why I -wont-. Are you getting the difference yet? I'll say it again in a slightly different way - its not a question of ability or willingness to express myself, just a question of where I share the information and with whom. Would you like a third analogy? I am perfectly ABLE to have sex with everyone who asks me, and yet I CHOOSE not to. I hope we've cleared that up once and for all?
> 
> Now, stop pointing the finger at all of us and start looking to yourself. We're waiting for you to make your personal announcements about fatness but you're still wrapped up in expressing sorrow over how the rest of us choose to conduct ourselves. Have you actually got anything to say thats going to thrill, shock, impress or inform us or is this entire thread just your way of expressing your unhappiness at being fat?
> Tracey



i just find the hands off for certain topics a personal restraint. from the very beginning of the thread people were saying how it was literally not my business to be asking other fat people who wanted to answer those kinds of questions. then suddenly when the irony caught them it became an argument over "tone" and the idea that suddenly i thought i was better than everyone else. i find the whole thing odd. if someone didn't want to answer those questions no one was making them. if they didn't like the question no one was forcing them to answer. strange that i had always been considered a "nice" person by lots of people, especially those who actually know me, before i decided to talk about that. plenty of other people felt very comfortable answering and did so openly and well. so it was not somehow insulting to everyone. not everyone feels the same or should be made to. i don't feel any fat person has to do anything except leave other people to their own freedom just like they've been left to theirs. i say what i like. you say what you like. that should be fine. no need for personal attacking just because someone might have a different approach or different ideas than yours. 

ps: being fat doesn't bother me but feeling that my ideas must agree with yours does


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## Grundig QD40

superodalisque said:


> ps: being fat doesn't bother me but feeling that my ideas must agree with yours does



Well said.


----------



## butch

superodalisque said:


> i can understand this but my question is for those who are unwilling why the restraint of those who aren't? i don't feel anyone owes openess at all. no one is or was forcing anyone to say anything they didn't want to against their will. i didn't even ask for any of the "down and dirty" as you've put it just thoughts impressions and feelings. anything else anyone chose to reveal would be at their own discretion and comfort level. i'm just uncomfortable with the whole idea that there is somewhat of a culture of fat in hiding. and i think i'm personally just too impatient with all of the fear to be totally objective about any of it. i'm just so tired of the "OMG somebody may say something bad about me or make fun of me because i'm fat." its not that i don't empathize at all its just disheartening seeing people having their lives ruled by that and being expected to kneel to that fear yourself even when its not in your nature.



If you're talking about the wider fat world, then I have to say, I don't see a "culture of fat in hiding." I see in some places a belief that in order to change the paradigm that equates fat=bad, certain discourses are frowned upon, because they may be seen as upholding the status quo that allows fat to be a widespread stigmatized identity. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I understand it, and can operate within that framework without any skin off my nose, since I have no problems with being fat and thinking that being fat is wonderful.

With that being said, there are places in the wider fat world where these sorts of political investments are disregarded, and bully for that. I do think that any bounded gathering of people with a fat positive perspective, seeking others of like persuasion, are allowed to set boundaries, and to expect everyone who participates to adhere to those boundaries. Since there is such a diversity of opinion within the fat positive world, both online and off, I wonder why Dimensions is such a focus for internal criticism.

Oh, and everything liz said above is spot on, but I can't rep her (I need a crying emoticon now). As she points out, Dimensions has a greater diversity of fat positive discourse than any other space in the fatopshere, and for that I am grateful, since I never much enjoyed spaces where everyone always agrees and nobody is allowed to offer a critical stance.


----------



## JerseyGirl07093

Angel said:


> SS Mods, I hope it's OK for me to clarify something here.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not just a SS Forum. It's a SS *Issues* forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Now to clarify and set the record straight as to some of the things that have been alluded to recently in this thread:
> 
> The Super Sized Issues Forum is a private (not secret!) forum for SS females to discuss *issues* relating to living live as a super sized female in a super sized body. Often times the *issues* that SS females are faced with are of an intimate nature and _that_ is why there is a need for privacy. It isn't because SS females are ashamed of themselves or of their bodies or of their lives. It isn't because SS females don't want to help or share helpful advice with other SS females. We do want to share helpful advice with our SS sisters, but we want it to be in private because of the intimate nature and/or subject matter. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT some secret social club. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT some type of party cenral where members get to pick and choose who they want to let in or not let in. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT a playhouse or a forum for only the popular and well liked to the exclusion of all others. The SS *Issues* forum exists and was created for a specific purpose, and again, as a place where SS females can discuss *issues* relating to being supersized in a private setting.
> 
> If anyone has a problem with the existance of the forum or with the fact that it is a private forum for SS females only please voice your complaints to the Webmaster because the forum is as he intended - and intends for - it to be.



Well said! Great post! :bow:


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## superodalisque

Angel said:


> SS Mods, I hope it's OK for me to clarify something here.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not just a SS Forum. It's a SS *Issues* forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Now to clarify and set the record straight as to some of the things that have been alluded to recently in this thread:
> 
> The Super Sized Issues Forum is a private (not secret!) forum for SS females to discuss *issues* relating to living live as a super sized female in a super sized body. Often times the *issues* that SS females are faced with are of an intimate nature and _that_ is why there is a need for privacy. It isn't because SS females are ashamed of themselves or of their bodies or of their lives. It isn't because SS females don't want to help or share helpful advice with other SS females. We do want to share helpful advice with our SS sisters, but we want it to be in private because of the intimate nature and/or subject matter. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT some secret social club. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT some type of party cenral where members get to pick and choose who they want to let in or not let in. The SS *Issues* forum is NOT a playhouse or a forum for only the popular and well liked to the exclusion of all others. The SS *Issues* forum exists and was created for a specific purpose, and again, as a place where SS females can discuss *issues* relating to being supersized in a private setting.
> 
> If anyone has a problem with the existance of the forum or with the fact that it is a private forum for SS females only please voice your complaints to the Webmaster because the forum is as he intended - and intends for - it to be.



just for clarity: so no one is ever excluded for issues posed on the public forums and not in the SS forum?

also how are people supposed to ask for membership if they don't know the forum exists because it doesn't appear unless you are a member? wouldn't someone already a member have to decide to tell you about it?


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## Angel

superodalisque said:


> just for clarity: so no one is ever excluded for issues posed on the public forums and not in the SS forum?



I'm not a Mod of the SS Issues Forum, so I can't answer for the Mods as to any decisions made concerning exclusions pre membership or post membership. 

Since you quoted my previous post I will offer this information. I personally take the privacy issue very seriously. Well over a year ago and on two different occasions I alerted the Mods of the SS Issues Forum (with a request and with the understanding that my identity would be kept confidential) of two things I witnessed in chat. Both incidents involved a SSBBW who was NOT a member of the SS Issues Forum, but who might one day request membership. I alerted the Mods because what I witnessed I believed would have been (or could have been) a blatant breech or violation of privacy (or potentual outright breech of privacy) had that SSBBW been a member of the SS Issues Forum. I felt that I was looking out for all of our (those who were/and may potentually one day be members) best interests when I alerted the Mods. We who are members and who do participate want to be assure of and know that others there will respect our privacy and that they will not be someone who would violates our trust in them. That is all I can divulge concerning what info I past on. 






superodalisque said:


> also how are people supposed to ask for membership if they don't know the forum exists because it doesn't appear unless you are a member? wouldn't someone already a member have to decide to tell you about it?



Like others have expressed one of the Mods may contact a SSBBW who posts on the open forums; or like I and others who contacted one of the Mods or the Webmaster after having read about or after having seen the forum mentioned.


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## Lovelyone

Angel said:


> I'm not a Mod of the SS Issues Forum, so I can't answer for the Mods as to any decisions made concerning exclusions pre membership or post membership.
> 
> Since you quoted my previous post I will offer this information. I personally take the privacy issue very seriously. Well over a year ago and on two different occasions I alerted the Mods of the SS Issues Forum (with a request and with the understanding that my identity would be kept confidential) of two things I witnessed in chat. Both incidents involved a SSBBW who was NOT a member of the SS Issues Forum, but who might one day request membership. I alerted the Mods because what I witnessed I believed would have been (or could have been) a blatant breech or violation of privacy (or potentual outright breech of privacy) had that SSBBW been a member of the SS Issues Forum. I felt that I was looking out for all of our (those who were/and may potentually one day be members) best interests when I alerted the Mods. We who are members and who do participate want to be assure of and know that others there will respect our privacy and that they will not be someone who would violates our trust in them. That is all I can divulge concerning what info I past on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like others have expressed one of the Mods may contact a SSBBW who posts on the open forums; or like I and others who contacted one of the Mods or the Webmaster after having read about or after having seen the forum mentioned.


 
I guess my question about this posting is...if the ssbbw in question were NOT a member of the SS forums and quite possibly wasn't even aware that there WAS a ss issue forums (as we've seen on this thread that there are women on these forums, me for one, who weren't even aware that the forums existed)--but they were in chat just having a conversation about THEIR own personal life--how could they POSSIBLY be breeching the violation of privacy that you are talking about? (of course you didnt go into detail so I just wondered about that). I guess what I am asking is...now everything that we post on the forums or say in the chat room is being policed by someone (who--no offense meant to you Angie--isnt even a moderator) in order to prevent us from "possibly" being accepted into that forum even though there is a high possibility that we didnt even know that we were doing something that might have an effect on whether or not we will be approved? You'll have to pardon me for saying so Angie, but that just seems like jumping the gun. Like I said, I dont know the particulars...but I'd hate to find out that I wasn't accepted into a private forums cos of something I said in a chatroom about my own personal experiences offended someone enough to have them tattle on me.


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## AnnMarie

Lovelyone said:


> I guess my question about this posting is...if the ssbbw in question were NOT a member of the SS forums and quite possibly wasn't even aware that there WAS a ss issue forums (as we've seen on this thread that there are women on these forums, me for one, who weren't even aware that the forums existed)--but they were in chat just having a conversation about THEIR own personal life--how could they POSSIBLY be breeching the violation of privacy that you are talking about? (of course you didnt go into detail so I just wondered about that). I guess what I am asking is...now everything that we post on the forums or say in the chat room is being policed by someone (who--no offense meant to you Angie--isnt even a moderator) in order to prevent us from "possibly" being accepted into that forum even though there is a high possibility that we didnt even know that we were doing something that might have an effect on whether or not we will be approved? You'll have to pardon me for saying so Angie, but that just seems like jumping the gun. Like I said, I dont know the particulars...but I'd hate to find out that I wasn't accepted into a private forums cos of something I said in a chatroom about my own personal experiences offended someone enough to have them tattle on me.




I am a mod of the SS forum, and I think I can speak freely for Carrie and Randi (and if not they will certainly pipe up), and say that we ask, nor expect or request, any sort of policing of members or anything. When membership is requested, we have a process that is followed each and every time. All applicants are individuals and that's that. We're not keeping books, taking names, lurking around corners. 

It's a myriad of issues that determine membership eligibility - we're the ones who admit members, and we're the only ones. There are 3 mods so if there are issues and we vote there is a way to break a tie. It's a system devised to be useful and helpful and that's all. 

Hope that helps a little bit, lovely.


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## CastingPearls

I have to admit that does concern me too. As was mentioned upthread, the details were left out for good reason, but I wonder if an SSBBW can be blackballed from the group without even being given a fair shot because of something she said.

God knows I'm very open but when told something is private or not to say anything, I respect it totally. 

However, my whole story shouldn't be subject to censoring me from being part of a group I could benefit from as well as contribute to, especially when so many SSBBWs honestly didn't know it existed in the first place, regardless of how many times it's been brought up over the years.


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## Lovelyone

AnnMarie said:


> I am a mod of the SS forum, and I think I can speak freely for Carrie and Randi (and if not they will certainly pipe up), and say that we ask, nor expect or request, any sort of policing of members or anything. When membership is requested, we have a process that is followed each and every time. All applicants are individuals and that's that. We're not keeping books, taking names, lurking around corners.
> 
> It's a myriad of issues that determine membership eligibility - we're the ones who admit members, and we're the only ones. There are 3 mods so if there are issues and we vote there is a way to break a tie. It's a system devised to be useful and helpful and that's all.
> 
> Hope that helps a little bit, lovely.


 
Yes thank you that helps me very much.


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## AnnMarie

... don't believe everything you read... 

It's a message board, people - not the Freemasons.


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## cinnamitch

AnnMarie said:


> ... don't believe everything you read...
> 
> It's a message board, people - not the Freemasons.



Aww i wanted some kind of special ceremony , and a hat


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## Angel

Lovelyone said:


> I guess my question about this posting is...if the ssbbw in question were NOT a member of the SS forums and quite possibly wasn't even aware that there WAS a ss issue forums (as we've seen on this thread that there are women on these forums, me for one, who weren't even aware that the forums existed)--but they were in chat just having a conversation about THEIR own personal life--how could they POSSIBLY be breeching the violation of privacy that you are talking about? (of course you didnt go into detail so I just wondered about that). I guess what I am asking is...now everything that we post on the forums or say in the chat room is being policed by someone (who--no offense meant to you Angie--isnt even a moderator) in order to prevent us from "possibly" being accepted into that forum even though there is a high possibility that we didnt even know that we were doing something that might have an effect on whether or not we will be approved? You'll have to pardon me for saying so Angie, but that just seems like jumping the gun. Like I said, I dont know the particulars...but I'd hate to find out that I wasn't accepted into a private forums cos of something I said in a chatroom about my own personal experiences offended someone enough to have them tattle on me.



These individuals knew of the forum. 

And just to explain, in one of the instances the person had either been told about the forum or had read about it and then started discussing it in chat and making comments about SSBBW and a particular intimate issue that some SSBBW have difficulties with. Then the individual was LOLing about it. 

It wasn't policing. I just happened to be in chat when it happened. It was someome openly discussing her knowledge of the forum and then laughing about intimate subject manner that she found amusing.

I think that any member of the forum who would have witnessed something like that would have been concerned.

Again, she knew of the forums existance.


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## AnnMarie

cinnamitch said:


> Aww i wanted some kind of special ceremony , and a hat



We can work on hats.


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## Angel

cinnamitch said:


> Aww i wanted some kind of special ceremony , and a hat





AnnMarie said:


> We can work on hats.



I suggest a male revue where all the gentlemen begin in uniforms and corresponding hats.


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## KHayes666

Angel said:


> I suggest a male revue where all the gentlemen begin *in uniforms and corresponding hats*.



So you want rush week at Faber College circa 1963?


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## Angel

KHayes666 said:


> So you want rush week at Faber College circa 1963?



Ha Ha  Not exactly what I had in mind, though I do love me some Bacon.


Just for you, Hayes. 

*GATOR!!!!!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U74I15exr8o


After you watch it, scroll down and read convict55's comment. Kinda gives a whole new meaning to squashing! 


There's you guys an idea for the upcoming Rockin' NJ Bash!


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## Jes

Lovelyone said:


> Thanks to everyone (Angel, BigbeautifulME, Jes and Katy) for letting me know about the invite only thing being a falsehood. I really was under the impression that it was invite only and that's why I never investigated it.
> 
> .


You're very welcome, LO! I always refer someone with a need to that group b/c I think it's probably the best place to get the answers for which a woman might be searching.


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## CastingPearls

I too appreciate the clarification. Thanks all.


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## Never2fat4me

cinnamitch said:


> Aww i wanted some kind of special ceremony , and a hat





AnnMarie said:


> We can work on hats.





Angel said:


> I suggest a male revue where all the gentlemen begin in uniforms and corresponding hats.



Volunteering and ready for duty!


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