# tricky business, this fat acceptance. (discussion inside)



## Foolish Fool (Nov 29, 2007)

i'm having some troubled thoughts that i don't quite know how to phrase. let me start from the beginning.
i know a girl named Annie. Annie is super cute, nice, and honest. Annie's got a good heart. Annie is fat. Annie is also shy and insecure. according to her, she'd be less shy and insecure if she weren't fat. now, i tell her she's pretty, and i tell her there's plenty of other boys who would feel the same.
she knows about NAAFA and _Fat!So?_ and she kind of gets the concept of fat acceptance, but says it's not for her.
according to her, for herself, the key to her happiness is being thin. and according to her, she wants to be thin to please herself, not to please others.

now, what i'm trying to figure is:
is there any right or wrong here?
i mean, we all know it's possible to be healthy and happy AND fat.
is there anyway to make a girl of Annie's mindset (i know Annie isn't the only who feels this way) to "see the light" and realize happiness can be achieved at any size?
or is Annie just doing what's best for her?

i'm quite confused over this concept.


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## Jes (Nov 29, 2007)

there is a right or a wrong, here.

whatever annie thinks is what's right. for annie. 

if she ever changes her mind, then that _new_ thought becomes right. for annie. because it's HER thought.

you can share your opinions with her, but perhaps are your own peril (or the peril of the friendship). you can be responsive to her if she asks you questions about your opinions and the things you talk about. you can be supportive as far as you can comfortably stretch (opinionwise). 

But right now, you're selling something she does NOT want to buy. It's the same as asking her to join your prayer group. If she watned to join your prayer group, she'd ask you for the information. Once you've told her about it, and you have, that's it. Doesn't matter if you think the prayer group would change her life and save her soul. You've offered, she's declined. Unless you want to push her away, thus completely subverting the friendly ideal of being supportive, or offend her, then that's that. You don't have to lie and say you don't belong to your prayer group, or pretend you're not going to a prayer meeting, but as soon as the focus is on HER, you've overstepped, in my opinion.


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## Sweet_Serenade (Nov 29, 2007)

I don't see what's so confusing.

Being big is not for everyone. There are people genuinely only happy about how they look if they are thin, toned, etc. Some people literally don't like being big, and it's your job as her friend to accept that, rather than coerce her into doing something she clearly is not interested in. That will compromise your friendship.
People are different, at the end of the day. Opinions of beauty vary. Not everyone thinks big is beautiful, in fact, that's the more common perspective. So Annie's insecurity is understandable.
Be supportive of what she wants, not what you want her to be.

Pretty much, Jes already said it much better than I did, but I thought I'd give it a swing.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 29, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> i'm having some troubled thoughts that i don't quite know how to phrase. let me start from the beginning.
> i know a girl named Annie. Annie is super cute, nice, and honest. Annie's got a good heart. Annie is fat. Annie is also shy and insecure. according to her, she'd be less shy and insecure if she weren't fat. now, i tell her she's pretty, and i tell her there's plenty of other boys who would feel the same.
> she knows about NAAFA and _Fat!So?_ and she kind of gets the concept of fat acceptance, but says it's not for her.
> according to her, for herself, the key to her happiness is being thin. and according to her, she wants to be thin to please herself, not to please others.
> ...



If Annie is ever going to "get it" on the same level that you feel you "get it", it's going to have to come from within. You will never be able to deliver her to that happy place of self-acceptance, no matter how much encouragement you give her or how attractive you (or anyone else) may find her. 

I feel much the same way that Annie does, about myself. I'm not happy when I reach or exceed a certain weight. I cannot be happy at any size. I understand that people can and do, but *I* don't, and I can't be fat because my husband prefers it (and I know that he does), or because I know that my life is going to be what it is, the joyful moments and the painful ones, no matter what the numbers on the scale say. I want to run after my son, get down on his level and spend hours engaged in active play with him, and I want to fit into theater and airplane seats and get onto amusement park rides without worrying about whether I'm going to get the boot because I don't fit. And I definitely don't want to deal with the host of health issues that have always accompanied weight gain, for me. 

If Amy is shy and insecure now, she will be shy and insecure at a lower weight, too. And she's not going to be magically happy coz she's thin. But these are things that she will eventually find out for herself.


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## t3h_n00b (Nov 29, 2007)

Jes said:


> there is a right or a wrong, here.
> 
> whatever annie thinks is what's right. for annie.
> 
> ...



agreed:bow:


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## sweet&fat (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm sure it's been said here before, but something I've learned the hard way: it's much easier to focus unhappiness on weight than deal with the other varied and messy aspects of your life. "One problem to solve and my life will be perfect! And the 1000 other little things that bother me will all melt away with the pounds!" Yikes. It's also a very convenient excuse for why you're not acting like the person you want to be ("I'll be less shy/start dating when I lose X pounds"). 

That said, I'm not sure talking to her about her weight is the right thing to do. She's obviously spent a lot of time obsessing about it on her own. In a way, trying to convert her to another mindset inadvertently affirms that it is indeed all about her body. Is there any way that you could help build up her confidence without making it about her weight?


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## liz (di-va) (Nov 29, 2007)

I think this is a really valid question to ask. If somebody theoretically has all the "tools" for size acceptance right there and isn't taking them up...is there anything you can do? (No, but how frustrating, eh, when you feel like you can see how wonderful somebody is and they can't.)

There's something about this situation that highlights the uphill battle that size acceptance is on a wholesale level. Because everyone who's ever decided to keep hating their fat body uses the argument that she is (fat acceptance is for other fat folk, just not for me)--at the _same_ time, yeah--it may _not_ be for her. For whatever reason. Who can say. Who knows what/where/whenever. It really is something that is hers to have/decide/happen.

I will say this: no matter what she does, whoever she decides/wants to be in this life, whatever her body does or doesn't do (hello, we have less control over this than we think), she will probably be better off for accepting what her body is at some point. As is true about ANY PART of oneself, corporeal or not!! I don't know why that's seen as such a radical idea sometimes...tis true of anything. Acceptance in the sense that that's who you are, even if you want to make some things mo better (be less procrastinatory, learn how to swim, whatever).

But...it's her bag, baby. People are right. You can't push it. And sometimes doing so reinforces the wrong ideas, as sweet says, puts the emphasis too much on the body. And if she's hanging onto the idea of being thin as a cureall for other probs...traci's right, she will discover the fallacy of that for herself....eventually, usually.

All *you* can really do is act on *your* principles for *you*. Walk your walk. Talk your talk. I'm not really sure what that is--if you're an FA type or what--but a little of the old Shown, Not Stated, can go a long way in the end!


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## Tooz (Nov 29, 2007)

Jes said:


> there is a right or a wrong, here.
> 
> whatever annie thinks is what's right. for annie.



This is true.

However...

Now, I don't know Annie, but I am going to play this card anyway. sweet&fat already talked about it-- say she gets skinny. Then what? If there are any other issues, they will still exist. She should make sure that's not the problem.

However, if it is, and being "big" isn't for her, that's life. It's her body, and she wants to be skinny.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 29, 2007)

> she knows about NAAFA and Fat!So? and she kind of gets the concept of fat acceptance, but says it's not for her.



You could have stopped here.



> is there anyway to make a girl of Annie's mindset (i know Annie isn't the only who feels this way) to "see the light" and realize happiness can be achieved at any size?



Because once you got to here it became offensive. See, it's cool that you like fat chicks, but from your recounting here, Annie does not want to be a fat chick. I'd love it if I could somehow convince everyone that I was right about everything and they just need to "see the light" and realize that I'm RIGHT, but that isn't happening.


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## Tad (Nov 29, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> Annie is super cute, nice, and honest. Annie's got a good heart. Annie is fat. Annie is also shy and insecure. according to her, she'd be less shy and insecure if she weren't fat. now, i tell her she's pretty, and i tell her there's plenty of other boys who would feel the same.
> she knows about NAAFA and _Fat!So?_ and she kind of gets the concept of fat acceptance, but says it's not for her.
> according to her, for herself, the key to her happiness is being thin. and according to her, she wants to be thin to please herself, not to please others.



My two cents worth.

Based on this very brief summary, I'm not actually sure that Annie does 'get it.' 

I'm sure there are much longer definitions, but briefly
Fat acceptance = accepting everyone, at any size --or--
Fat acceptance = size is not a value, differentiator, or discriminator.

You can be perfectly, 100%, size accepting, and still want to be thinner, for your own reasons.

Saying size acceptance is not for her implies that she thinks people should be valued, sorted, and possibly discriminated based on their size.

That is a position that I think it is entirely possible to discuss, debate, and lobby about. See if you can get her to be size accepting, for the world around her. 

As for her wanting to be thinner, and whether it will change what she thinks it will change:
a) what people said above, but also
b) the placebo effect can be strong, so maybe she will feel more confident, etc, if she gets thinner, just because she expects to do so.

Regards;

-Ed


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## elle camino (Nov 29, 2007)

also for once i'd kind of like to play devil's advocate about the whole 'losing weight won't solve your problems, silly girl!' mentality. 
i mean, we don't know this girl. maybe her problems with her life are more or less limited to her inability to fit into the clothes she wants to wear, or her parents ragging on her about being fat, or that she feels rejected by the people she wants to date because of her size, or blah blah whatever. what i'm saying is that it IS possible that her problems (or a sizable portion of them) _could_ be solved by losing weight. who are we to pretend to know exactly what someone's problems are, and declare them unsolvable by this one particular method? 
it just seems really presumptuous. and like sweet serenade already so aptly put it: being big isn't for everyone. 

to the OP: all that you can do, you've already done. just chill out, be her friend, and let her figure out what's best for her.


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## Jes (Nov 29, 2007)

Tooz said:


> This is true.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


sure. no one is denying that the issues we see as problems aren't always problems, and those we don't see as problems are problems, etc.

but that's for us to figure out. to sink or swim. not some dude who isn't us.  

what you are saying is 100% correct. And it's also 100% unconnected to someone else's opinion, given to someone who isn't asking for it.


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## Jes (Nov 29, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I'd love it if I could somehow convince everyone that I was right about everything and they just need to "see the light" and realize that I'm RIGHT, but that isn't happening.



I recommend starting by coming to my prayer group. We meet on Thursday nights, in the park next to the McDonald's.


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## Foolish Fool (Nov 29, 2007)

wow.
you come in and ask a question, trying to get (presumably) like-minded people's opinions, and you get made out to be some kind of bad guy.
i've gotten one joke made about my "see the light" refrain, i've been accused of "coercing" someone, and one person said i was outright "offensive.
okay!


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## Jes (Nov 29, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> wow.
> you come in and ask a question, trying to get (presumably) like-minded people's opinions, and you get made out to be some kind of bad guy.
> i've gotten one joke made about my "see the light" refrain, i've been accused of "coercing" someone, and one person said i was outright "offensive.
> okay!



well next time, then, you might phrase it this way:

Ok, i have a situation, and an opinion on it, so i'm going to ask a question here looking for other opinions, but please make sure they match my opinion and don't make me do anything I wasn't already going to do.


and if you think i'm being facetious, i've actually done this! when i've needed an audience to whom I needed to vent!


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## Jon Blaze (Nov 29, 2007)

Pretty much what everyone else is saying for the second thread! 

Firstly: All you can do is voice your opinion. You can't make her change, but you can interest her in the whole concept. 

Secondly: Oh wait... You got it. My mistake. 
Yea. You've got the right ideas there. I just don't think you can do much more.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 29, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> wow.
> you come in and ask a question, trying to get (presumably) like-minded people's opinions, and you get made out to be some kind of bad guy.
> i've gotten one joke made about my "see the light" refrain, i've been accused of "coercing" someone, and one person said i was outright "offensive.
> okay!



You may want to read the excellent writings of Camino, Elle on this topic.

Cliff Notes Version: If you post things on internet message boards, anyone who reads them may respond.


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## Outsidethebox (Nov 29, 2007)

K people, can we retract our claws for a second? I don't think that what the OP is talking about here is necessarily changing this girl, or making her love fat or want to be fat: I think he's talking about helping her to love herself at any size. He''s talkinh about being happy no matter how much she weighs, not "she should be fat." This, in my opinion, is a noble cause. Every body should be able to have confidence dispite the size of their clothing.

And anyway, my personal thought on this is that it will probably not happen for her. I know because I have, and sometimes still, feel that way. Nobody else will be able to make her "see the light" (light being happiness despite size). Ony she can choose to do that. Sad, but true.

This is her choice. The only time it ever becomes your place to intervene is if she begins to really hurt herself, like physically. Beyond that, her emotions are hers and you need to except that no matter how much they may bother you to hear.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 29, 2007)

Outsidethebox said:


> K people, can we retract our claws for a second? I don't think that what the OP is talking about here is necessarily changing this girl, or making her love fat or want to be fat: I think he's talking about helping her to love herself at any size. He''s talkinh about being happy no matter how much she weighs, not "she should be fat." This, in my opinion, is a noble cause. Every body should be able to have confidence dispite the size of their clothing.
> 
> And anyway, my personal thought on this is that it will probably not happen for her. I know because I have, and sometimes still, feel that way. Nobody else will be able to make her "see the light" (light being happiness despite size). Ony she can choose to do that. Sad, but true.
> 
> This is her choice. The only time it ever becomes your place to intervene is if she begins to really hurt herself, like physically. Beyond that, her emotions are hers and you need to except that no matter how much they may bother you to hear.



I'll explain.

Pretty often, some FA will have a post along those lines. Sometimes it's a friend, more often it's either "How can I convince my girlfriend to not lose weight?" or "My girlfriend wants to lose weight but I like fat chicks. How can I get her to see things my way?"

I think women of all sizes get annoyed by these posts because they typically see that first and foremost, the guy writing the post is an FA and comes off as less interested in size acceptance and more interested in having his partner agree to see things his way and keep her body the way he likes it. A lot of times it's "I want her to like being fat because I like it."

I mean, it's not different from a woman saying "I like red hair. How can I convince my partner to see that red hair is sexy, and to dye his hair?" It comes across less as "I want her to be happy" and more "I want her to agree with me."


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## Outsidethebox (Nov 29, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I'll explain.
> 
> Pretty often, some FA will have a post along those lines. Sometimes it's a friend, more often it's either "How can I convince my girlfriend to not lose weight?" or "My girlfriend wants to lose weight but I like fat chicks. How can I get her to see things my way?"
> 
> ...



I do get that point of view. However I thoroughly read his post and nowhere did it mention his wanting her to conform to his fantasies. Just that he wanted her to feel happy, which is the way a lot of friends would feel. So, despite the fact that other people may say things like that, that's not what he was saying. So, not trying to start a fight, but I feel it inappropriate to say "Well OTHER guys said this, so even though he didn't, I'm going to assume that's what he's saying." Just doesn't seem right to me. So instead of assuming, I'm just going to take from what he actually wrote, and that's what I got out of it.


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## Foolish Fool (Nov 29, 2007)

Outsidethebox said:


> I thoroughly read his post and nowhere did it mention his wanting her to conform to his fantasies. Just that he wanted her to feel happy, which is the way a lot of friends would feel.


that's pretty much right.


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## liz (di-va) (Nov 29, 2007)

I feel like I already said this calmly, now I'm gonna say it less calmly. 

Sometimes I think hanging around here gets people really cynical and wary.

Yes, it's _possible_ to read the OP for Dr. Frankenstein-FA-I-will-mold-you subtext, but just for the heck of it, can't we assume he just wants her to be happy with how she looks? Yes, we know you can't make anybody do anything, that's not the point.

Nobody around here seem to remember in posts like this that the reason Dims and other places exists is because--what--95% of the world has something invested in this woman dieting and disliking her body. Most of the world THINKS SHE SHOULD! Most of the world thinks size acceptance is horse shit and fat people are stupid and if we all lost the 'extra' weight we'd all be happy and successful and stop offending those of us who have to look at us.

Can't we have a little faith in the people asking the questions? Spread a little sunshine? The world is not full of people who think like this guy. 

We are a tiny little minority here, you know. Tiny. The rest of the fat-hatin world...much bigger. Why is the fighting always in here and not directed elsewhere? 

Thus endeth my wheel-spinning, life on a web-board post . I know we're not supposd to all march in lock-step, but OY. I think sometimes people underestimate what women like the one in the OP face. It doesn't look like Dims.


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## mossystate (Nov 29, 2007)

I have to say, when I see a person say " according to her ", when talking about how another human being views themselves, or wishes for themselves, well, it seems very dismissive. 

Be there for her. While telling her she is pretty and that other boys would like her..is nice..it could also be too much, and might feel like manipulation to her, knowing that you like fat females. You might be focusing too much on what you like, and yes, sounding like someone who has something to sell. 

Maybe just tweak how you are approaching this woman.


*eta...Liz..good point..I would just say ( speaking only for moi ) that because this is such a tiny slice of the pie, ' we ' might want that slice to taste mostly..good. I know that I zero in while in some of those ' elsewhere ' places, but, at the moment, I am ...here. I like that the OP in this particular thread has taken a bit of the energy he has picked up here..and other places..and is passing the positive along to a young woman who hears the non-stop negative droning. I just hope the person who is being ' instructed ' is never forgotten..that she is not a project of some sort. I don't see this as fighting.


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## Fascinita (Nov 29, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> according to her, she'd be less shy and insecure if she weren't fat. now, i tell her she's pretty, and i tell her there's plenty of other boys who would feel the same.



Let me be perfectly blunt: The fatter I get, the fewer "boys" there are that tell me I'm pretty. Coincidence? Maybe.

I'm fat for a number of reasons, among them the fact that I enjoy eating and I enjoy being fat. Also part of the reason I choose to remain fat and not diet is because I enjoy "breaking the law," so to speak (if the law is the cultural imperative of "be thin or perish.") In my own perverted way, I enjoy "sticking it to The Man" by owning my body completely and refusing to let others tell me how it has to be. It's possible this "uppity" attitude may color the perception that "boys" have of me, causing them to keep their distance. I don't know.

But I must say, in my experience, it just isn't true that there are "plenty of boys" who like fat girls. In fact, it's a veritable desert. A number of fat women I know have had similar experiences. 

I think your friend is expressing an anxiety that's based on real probabilities that, while not kind, are nonetheless there for women to contend with. She has to decide how to play it. You are nice to tell her she's pretty and I encourage you to keep telling her. Your sweetness might influence her in good ways. But she is ultimately responsible for deciding whether she wants to diet or not.


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## sweet&fat (Nov 29, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> wow.
> you come in and ask a question, trying to get (presumably) like-minded people's opinions, and you get made out to be some kind of bad guy.
> i've gotten one joke made about my "see the light" refrain, i've been accused of "coercing" someone, and one person said i was outright "offensive.
> okay!



If you read through the posts, you'll see that people also gave opinions and helpful suggestions as well.


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## Sweet_Serenade (Nov 29, 2007)

I apologize if I came off as snappy.
Apparently I read what you said wrong.

I was just trying to throw it out there that maybe she simply does just want to slim down. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." etc
It could be that losing weight wont solve her problems, obviously, I don't know her and don't know how it feels to be her.
So, given that you said she didn't really approve of the big acceptance thing, I just wanted to reiterate that.

I agree also that it would be great if people could simply accept themselves at any size. And not worry so much about their weight, just be happy.
But if it were only that easy.
For many, size could be the problem, slimming may help her out, it may not, like I said, I'm not her.

So, again, I'm sorry for the miscommunication. Just try to build up her confidence, compliment her, encourage her at every turn she seems excited about. And comfort her if she's not feeling good.

Pretty much stating the obvious, but just be a good friend.


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## elle camino (Nov 29, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> But I must say, in my experience, it just isn't true that there are "plenty of boys" who like fat girls. In fact, it's a veritable desert. A number of fat women I know have had similar experiences.
> 
> I think your friend is expressing an anxiety that's based on real probabilities that, while not kind, are nonetheless there for women to contend with.


amen, exactly, and hells yes. 

apparently it's really easy for one lone FA to get the idea that it must be super fun and easy for a fat chick to get a date, but in reality? not the case at all. 
at. all. 

and to the OP directly: my heart truly bleeds for you, poor thing. how soul crushing it must be to make a thread and not have everyone who posts in it tell you how 100% correct and wonderfully astute you are.


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## Jes (Nov 29, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> Let me be perfectly blunt: The fatter I get, the fewer "boys" there are that tell me I'm pretty. Coincidence? Maybe.
> 
> .



Preach it, fat sistah!


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## Tooz (Nov 29, 2007)

elle camino said:


> apparently it's really easy for one lone FA to get the idea that it must be super fun and easy for a fat chick to get a date, but in reality? not the case at all.



Yes. This is why I don't tolerate closet FAs, but that is another story.


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## SummerG (Nov 30, 2007)

I agree with several of the responses here, as far as personal choice goes. It's not anyone else's responsibility to show someone else the light of size acceptance. I think though that by just being one person, who is out and proud (to borrow a catch phrase) you are doing a good thing. 

I often don't voice my opinions around here, because I feel like if I don't have something nice to say, it certainly won't help to add it into the fire that is already blazing around here. However there has been this ongoing theme lately of women talking about how being fat decreases the dating pool. I don't want to negate their personal experiences. I have not waddled in their shoes. I wanted though, to say that in my experience, there is a thriving community of men and women here. Many people have found love on dimensions alone, let alone through other size acceptance sites and organizations. Even out in the "real" world not everyone ascribes to the "thin=beautiful" shtick. 

I also believe that dating and finding love is not a fat/thin issue. I have known many thin women who have a hard time finding a date, or that special someone. It's a general *life* thing. I think by placing blame on fat, for something that is a basic human circumstance (love and mating) is doing a disservice to size acceptance.


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## Fascinita (Nov 30, 2007)

SummerG said:


> It's a general *life* thing. I think by placing blame on fat, for something that is a basic human circumstance (love and mating) is doing a disservice to size acceptance.



Hi Summer: Without wishing to take this thread too far off course, allow me to respond to your post briefly.

I tried to make it clear in my response to disconnectedsmile that I was speaking from personal experience. To you I say that if promoting size acceptance called for me to keep from speaking about my personal experiences, then I couldn't get down with size acceptance. Fortunately, I think there is room in a size acceptance movement for telling it how it is on the personal level. That's my opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree. I thought the OP was sweet in his sentiment, and it was my intention to share my perspective with him, in hopes that it might help him somehow. I applaud your call for normalizing fat by regarding our fat dating issues as "basic(ally) human" (I agree, we're humans), but I don't see my perspective as incompatible with the interests of a size acceptance movement.


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## Baba Fats (Nov 30, 2007)

Jes said:


> But right now, you're selling something she does NOT want to buy.



Selling is truly the operative word here. I've just read an interesting blog entry - 

http://fatgirlsarefabtoo.blog.co.uk/2007/11/28/

It seems that a British magazine survey has calculated that women spend an average of 807 pounds (Sterling) for every pound (Avoirdupois) they lose. (I don't know exactly what that comes to in American money, but with the dollar going down like an Antarctic cruise ship you'd probably need double that number.) So the first question I'd ask Annie is how much cash does she have? And the second, how much of it is she willing to spend rewarding the industry that makes her feel worthless because she isn't skinny?

Of course, neither of those questions address the core issue. No matter how much you spend, sweat, or starve, those pounds almost invariably come back. More often than not, they bring new friends along. We know that fact. We pay lip service to it. It's a cornerstone of Fat Acceptance. Why, then, do we keep getting suckered into debates like this one, which treat fat or thin as some kind of "lifestyle" choice?

There's a lot of talk about unrealistic male fantasy on this board, but damned little about its female counterpart. When did Fat Acceptance come to mean defending every fat woman's freedom to indulge in self-delusion? If losing weight was really a viable option, most of you people wouldn't be here in the first place. You've had Fat Acceptance forced on you - only a handful got here by something akin to actual choice, and even those were usually compelled by feelings they couldn't control. Yet you cling to the myth that everybody has the God-given, Constitutional right to choose her own size and shape, whatever the cost to mind, body, and wallet, as if such a thing were even possible. Consequently, every time a new weight loss fad comes along, membership in NAAFA (and its clones) invariably tanks, leaving the group to rebuild itself all over again from the disillusioned survivors ... which is the chief reason why Fat Acceptance hasn't advanced a step in the last thirty years. (Fat people are mostly poor people. They just don't have the money to bankroll Fat Acceptance and their own oppression, too.)

Here's a thought. Maybe what's right is to confront a friend's unrealistic fantasies, not passively encourage them out of some misguided notion of political correctness. Maybe what women like Annie need most in their lives is a good old-fashioned dope slap. :doh: Wake up and smell the toast burning, sisters. Wanting to be skinny will get you about as far as wanting to win the Powerball jackpot. If you can't learn to be happy without it, you're going to spend an awful lot of time being miserable.


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## k1009 (Nov 30, 2007)

Baba Fats said:


> Here's a thought. Maybe what's right is to confront a friend's unrealistic fantasies, not passively encourage them out of some misguided notion of political correctness. Maybe what women like Annie need most in their lives is a good old-fashioned dope slap. :doh: Wake up and smell the toast burning, sisters. Wanting to be skinny will get you about as far as wanting to win the Powerball jackpot. If you can't learn to be happy without it, you're going to spend an awful lot of time being miserable.



This might make me sound like a heretic, but what if some women enjoy the dieting roller coaster? I have friends who have been on every diet possible, they're gym junkies, they'll go up and down 5 or 10 kilos every six months. I secretly think they prefer to cycle through their ups and downs than to eat sensibly and exercise three times a week. If that's what they want, then more power to em.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 30, 2007)

Baba Fats said:


> Selling is truly the operative word here. I've just read an interesting blog entry -
> 
> http://fatgirlsarefabtoo.blog.co.uk/2007/11/28/
> 
> ...



A good old fashioned dope slap? That really bothers me. "Unrealistic fantasies?" Without knowing Annie or her bodytype or why she is the size she is, we don't know if this is an unrealistic fantasy.

I don't know why it has to be a tenant of size acceptance that losing weight is an impossible and/or awful miserable endeavor. Not everyone who wants to lose weight is involved in an awful cycle of self hatred and abuse; many of them are just trying to workout each day and eat better and are not obsessing over it.

Many people, if they so chose, could lose weight via exercise and a lower calorie diet. That does not mean killing themselves at the gym or starvation, just engaging in a sensible diet with the US RDA amount of calories and nutrients, as well as the widely recommended hour per day of exercise.

Any time I see this "diets don't work" thing, I wonder about the difference betwen a person's ability to lose weight via a sensible regime I described above, and a commercial fad diet like Atkins or Slim Fast. I'm not saying everyone can be a size zero, but many people make daily choices that affect their size. That is not delusion.

And the "fat people are poor?" That's a really unfair stereotype and I'm not even sure where that came from. There are poor fat people and poor rich people.


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## Wild Zero (Nov 30, 2007)

Her body her choice.

Just drop it, the woman from the OP obviously wants to lose weight and as her friend you should support her rather than constantly trying to make her "see the light". Foisting your standards of beauty on Annie is no different from all the "OMG TYRA IS SO FAT" tabloid garbage, in fact it's probably worse because it's coming from a friend.


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## Jes (Nov 30, 2007)

dope slap?

and i wonder where the FA-as-savior complex comes from... ok, no i don't.


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## stefanie (Nov 30, 2007)

The weight loss question inspires a lot of passions ...

To the OP: your friend wants to lose weight. You can tell her she's pretty - of course that would be a nice thing to do. But she is on her own trajectory. 

The difficulty with weight loss is that there *are* people for whom it works. It's not a majority (if it were, as someone above said, a lot of fat people would have already succeeded and become less fat - some would even become slender.) But it's enough that people still have hope.

If it truly were impossible for *anyone* to lose weight, ever, I don't think there would be this feeling of hope "out there."

In any case, though, if the OP's friend wants to lose, it's up to her. If I have an IRL friend who is trying to avoid sweets, eat more healthful foods, work out, etc., for the purpose of weight loss, generally I'll support them in that (assuming of course they're not doing something dangerous like anorexic or purging behaviors.) This isn't about politics; it's about supporting a friend in something she (or he) thinks is important.


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## altered states (Nov 30, 2007)

(This isn't directly a response to the OP's message, more about other related issues in the thread.)

In high school, with my first girlfriend, my whole thing was, Hey, I'm cool with you being fat, why aren't you? She didn't believe me, thought I was being nice, and ultimately she was half-right: I WASN'T being "nice" - I just wanted her to validate me and my desire for her, constantly. I resented the fact that my presence as appreciative FA in her life somehow wasn't enough to blot out the rest of her family and society telling her that it was absolutely, definitely NOT okay to be fat. How dare she.

I'd like to say that was an After School Special instant-learning experience for me, but no, it took many years later for me to get the point. A few years ago, my current girlfriend began gaining a lot of weight, and of course I was in heaven. She, on the other hand, was miserable, and expressed a desire to get rid of it. So I let her know how much I preferred her larger body, constantly, thinking I was helping her find "acceptance." The truth was, I was just stating a preference, and not-so-subtly telling her it wasn't okay with me for her to lose weight. We didn't fight about it, but she explained it to me in those terms, and I finally got the message. I swear that before she pointed it out, I really was deluded into thinking I was doing her (and the world) a favor. FA Savior Syndrome indeed.


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## Foolish Fool (Nov 30, 2007)

elle camino said:


> and to the OP directly: my heart truly bleeds for you, poor thing. how soul crushing it must be to make a thread and not have everyone who posts in it tell you how 100% correct and wonderfully astute you are.


did i ever personally do or say something horrible to or about you?
why are you being so snarky towards me?


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## Scx (Nov 30, 2007)

Wild Zero said:


> Her body her choice.



Hear hear.

Now she knows your opinion, quit pestering her.

_Scx_

PS - elle Camino, it would be, except I am always 100% corecct and wonderfully astute...


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## Judge_Dre (Nov 30, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> wow.
> you come in and ask a question, trying to get (presumably) like-minded people's opinions, and you get made out to be some kind of bad guy.
> i've gotten one joke made about my "see the light" refrain, i've been accused of "coercing" someone, and one person said i was outright "offensive.
> okay!



We're not going to have another CravInTheCurves88 situation are we? You're being much too sensitive. Everyone gave you some good advice and honest opinions. I haven't read anything inappropriate in their replies to you question. I know she's your friend, but maybe she would rather be happy thiner. I'm trying to tone up my body myself. I don't hate my body, I just want to change it slightly. Would you try to convince some of the gainers on the forum to accept their bodies as they are and not gain? Not every fat girl has what it takes to be a BBW. Most lack the "fattitude" as Dravenhawk put it in an other thread http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32807


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## EtobicokeFA (Nov 30, 2007)

Jes said:


> dope slap?
> 
> and i wonder where the FA-as-savior complex comes from... ok, no i don't.



Sorry, for these stupid questions, but I want to ask them so get it straight. First, are we saying that trying to help or encouraging another person to get over their hatred of their bodies, and hopefully feel better about themselves is considered wrong, unless they give express permission? 

Secondly, is fat acceptance, mostly only to those who are running out of weight loss options, in between weight loss options or those few that are already okay with there bodies? Isn't fat acceptance about creating the idea that you don't have to be thin to happy or successful? 

Thirdly, why do we have the idea, that FA only have selfish reasons to want to help another person develop a better body image of themselves?



Jes said:


> But right now, you're selling something she does NOT want to buy.




And, people are buying billions of dollars worth of weight loss options because they all felt, though no encouraging from the diet industry, that they want or need to buy them.


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## Blackjack (Nov 30, 2007)

disconnectedsmile said:


> did i ever personally do or say something horrible to or about you?
> why are you being so snarky towards me?



Might have something to do with 



disconnectedsmile said:


> wow.
> you come in and ask a question, trying to get (presumably) like-minded people's opinions, and you get made out to be some kind of bad guy.
> i've gotten one joke made about my "see the light" refrain, i've been accused of "coercing" someone, and one person said i was outright "offensive.
> okay!




...in other words, your complaining that people didn't all jump on your bandwagon and agree with you. You can gripe and moan all you want about how you were so terribly misunderstood, but your post wasn't clear.

People nonetheless gave good advice, I'd suggest you listen instead of getting your feathers all ruffled up.


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## RedVelvet (Nov 30, 2007)

tres huevos said:


> (This isn't directly a response to the OP's message, more about other related issues in the thread.)
> 
> In high school, with my first girlfriend, my whole thing was, Hey, I'm cool with you being fat, why aren't you? She didn't believe me, thought I was being nice, and ultimately she was half-right: I WASN'T being "nice" - I just wanted her to validate me and my desire for her, constantly. I resented the fact that my presence as appreciative FA in her life somehow wasn't enough to blot out the rest of her family and society telling her that it was absolutely, definitely NOT okay to be fat. How dare she.
> 
> I'd like to say that was an After School Special instant-learning experience for me, but no, it took many years later for me to get the point. A few years ago, my current girlfriend began gaining a lot of weight, and of course I was in heaven. She, on the other hand, was miserable, and expressed a desire to get rid of it. So I let her know how much I preferred her larger body, constantly, thinking I was helping her find "acceptance." The truth was, I was just stating a preference, and not-so-subtly telling her it wasn't okay with me for her to lose weight. We didn't fight about it, but she explained it to me in those terms, and I finally got the message. I swear that before she pointed it out, I really was deluded into thinking I was doing her (and the world) a favor. FA Savior Syndrome indeed.




SING IT!

God I love this post so much..I want to get naked with it and rub warm oil into it and and and...stuff.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 30, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> SING IT!
> 
> God I love this post so much..I want to get naked with it and rub warm oil into it and and and...stuff.



If that was in the "Rep Points" thread, I'd mark it the.best.comment.EVAHHHHHHH, Arv. 

I am also in agreement with why you love the afore-mentioned post. So I'm going to REP it with just those words


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## Jes (Nov 30, 2007)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Sorry, for these stupid questions, but I want to ask them so get it straight. First, are we saying that trying to help or encouraging another person to get over their hatred of their bodies, and hopefully feel better about themselves is considered wrong, unless they give express permission?
> 
> Secondly, is fat acceptance, mostly only to those who are running out of weight loss options, in between weight loss options or those few that are already okay with there bodies? Isn't fat acceptance about creating the idea that you don't have to be thin to happy or successful?
> 
> ...



If you have read all of the posts in this thread so far, and you are still asking these questions, I honestly don't know what more to tell you. Either you can discuss the thing academically or you can't. The arguments of the 'con' position have been very clear and very logical. If you don't agree, you don't agree, but I think you're talking about something the rest of us aren't (save for the OP, possibly)


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## Aurora (Nov 30, 2007)

I think you should show her this board, and this thread.


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## Jes (Nov 30, 2007)

I don't.



pants


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## Judge_Dre (Nov 30, 2007)

Jes said:


> I don't.
> 
> 
> I agree. Imagine the horror she will feel that someone she knows is talking about her weight with a bunch of strangers in a thread that already has lasted 3 pages.


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## Jes (Nov 30, 2007)

oh, heinousness.

hey, dre, have we ever made out?


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## RedVelvet (Nov 30, 2007)

Aurora said:


> I think you should show her this board, and this thread.




Oh man...I disagree strongly...whoa.


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## RedVelvet (Nov 30, 2007)

Jes said:


> oh, heinousness.
> 
> hey, dre, have we ever made out?




He is....very fine, is he not?


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## Jes (Nov 30, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> He is....very fine, is he not?



I just....I feel like...he reminds me of this guy that I made out with next weekend. We had a lovely time.


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## GWARrior (Nov 30, 2007)

You can show here all the size acceptance websites you want, and while it may make her more sympathetic to the cause, she has a mind of her own and if she really wants to lose weight to feel better in her skin, then thats what shes gonna do.

just accept that and be there for her... no matter what she decides.


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## Judge_Dre (Nov 30, 2007)

Jes said:


> oh, heinousness.
> 
> hey, dre, have we ever made out?



Not yet


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## Aurora (Nov 30, 2007)

Wow, really? Not show a girl who's struggling with size acceptance to a size acceptance board?

Then maybe we should re-evaluate and take a look at exactly what this place stands for. Maybe we should think before we post comments about real people with real struggles outside the Internet. (Not saying the rest of us don't, of course, but something to think about.)

Interesting reactions.


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## Judge_Dre (Nov 30, 2007)

Aurora said:


> Wow, really? Not show a girl who's struggling with size acceptance to a size acceptance board?
> 
> Then maybe we should re-evaluate and take a look at exactly what this place stands for. Maybe we should think before we post comments about real people with real struggles outside the Internet. (Not saying the rest of us don't, of course, but something to think about.)
> 
> Interesting reactions.



It's not that were against introducing her the whole board. Its this forum in particular which you said to show her. She doesn't seem to be into disconnectedsmile's message, so I'm sure she won't appreciate this discussion involving her body and self-image being discussed by strangers. Most people wouldn't react kindly to it. Its a bit personel.


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## Jes (Nov 30, 2007)

i don't think she's struggling with size acceptance. Self-acceptance, yes. There's a difference. I think one sentence about: you know, I spend a lot of time at an online size-acceptance forum. If you ever want to take a look, let me know! 

and then never mention it again (in that way).

and if the OP hasn't done it by now, I wouldn't do it.


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## RedVelvet (Nov 30, 2007)

Aurora said:


> Wow, really? Not show a girl who's struggling with size acceptance to a size acceptance board?
> 
> Then maybe we should re-evaluate and take a look at exactly what this place stands for. Maybe we should think before we post comments about real people with real struggles outside the Internet. (Not saying the rest of us don't, of course, but something to think about.)
> 
> Interesting reactions.




See....I dont see this place as being about size acceptance, only...

Its also about paysites and fantasy fiction, and feeder stuff and general discussion.

If it were exclusively about size acceptance, I would be more likely to recommend it...but the fantasy stuff and feeder stuff have freaked out so many people I know personally...that I am careful about how I introduce this place..

Its heady stuff.

A very rich meal for someone who might just need an apple first?


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## Aurora (Nov 30, 2007)

Judge_Dre said:


> It's not that were against introducing her the whole board. Its this forum in particular which you said to show her. She doesn't seem to be into disconnectedsmile's message, so I'm sure she won't appreciate this discussion involving her body and self-image being discussed by strangers. Most people wouldn't react kindly to it. Its a bit personel.



Part of me wants to say then maybe we shouldn't post about other people without them knowing, at all. But then the other part says good feedback comes from such posts, and don't get me wrong - there has been some good feedback in this thread. And by forum I meant the board as a whole, I guess I should have made that clear. But also by this thread in particular, I dunno... maybe the optimism I have personally led me to think maybe the person this thread is about would feel good knowing that total strangers support her in the "it's your body, you do what you feel is right for you" mentality.



Jes said:


> i don't think she's struggling with size acceptance. Self-acceptance, yes. There's a difference. I think one sentence about: you know, I spend a lot of time at an online size-acceptance forum. If you ever want to take a look, let me know!
> 
> and then never mention it again (in that way).
> 
> and if the OP hasn't done it by now, I wouldn't do it.



You have a good point, though I think in many ways self acceptance and size acceptance go hand in hand. I'm not against losing weight. I'm against losing weight because of a perceived need to by other people. Same with purposeful gaining. If you're personally gonna feel better at a smaller size and that works for you, that's cool. But seeing that most women outside our little community here feel that in order to be liked and successful and etc. you have to be thin, the pressure is hard, and it's good to learn to love yourself no matter what your size even if it is not currently your ideal, and from there work to your ideal. Easier said than done, I know.


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## Aurora (Nov 30, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> See....I dont see this place as being about size acceptance, only...
> 
> Its also about paysites and fantasy fiction, and feeder stuff and general discussion.
> 
> ...



*nods* I hear you. I was a bit quick to jump, my apologies.


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## RedVelvet (Nov 30, 2007)

Aurora said:


> *nods* I hear you. I was a bit quick to jump, my apologies.




oh please, love...no apologies necessary..I assure you! Trust me....you were positively gentle compared to some....(that would be me...)


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## mossystate (Nov 30, 2007)

Last night, before I strapped on my pajamas ( don't ask ), I read Baba's post..and I chuckled..I rolled both my eyeballs..and I knew I would wake. knowing some fine people would have smacked him upside HIS melon.

FA savior...who said that?..* looks at the crowd *.. I cannot take the time to back out of this message..and scroll. I would like to give you this cookie and this stack of catalogs ( i want them out of my house ).

Not every seemingly fat positive remark or desire is human positive. We say we want fat people viewed as individuals, but, I see a lot to suggest otherwise. I AM here because I am fat ( the reason I found the place is because I was searching for some other fat related thang ). That got me to come through the door. Now, I am fat..and my name is Monique....how-do. 

I think the OP is honestly baffled. He cannot understand why all fat people would not want to support him in his endeavor with this young woman, because , he said the right words...right? I have men approach me here ( hey, it has happened! ) and some of them are also baffled, when, I am simply not interested in them. There is a sense of " I like fat women, I am here, I have shown an interest..what's the issue ". Trust me, in a world where my type of body is not exactly highly desired by many, you could..could..come here and not feel entitled or that you are Mr Wonderful for liking fat women..and YOU could be oh so in demand..trust me. 

Now, what was the question? Writing emails and posting..good idea.

carry on


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## Fascinita (Nov 30, 2007)

tres huevos said:


> (This isn't directly a response to the OP's message, more about other related issues in the thread.)
> 
> In high school, with my first girlfriend, my whole thing was, Hey, I'm cool with you being fat, why aren't you? She didn't believe me, thought I was being nice, and ultimately she was half-right: I WASN'T being "nice" - I just wanted her to validate me and my desire for her, constantly. I resented the fact that my presence as appreciative FA in her life somehow wasn't enough to blot out the rest of her family and society telling her that it was absolutely, definitely NOT okay to be fat. How dare she.




Senor tres huevos, thanks for this. So it's like with anyone, you grew. This is version Huevo.2. I'm on Fascinita.3 by now. And that's the thing. To keep growing, to keep learning. It's why I come along for the ride. (Please, when I'm told ****** who don't get it need to be dope slapped, it just gives me the angry giggles... Is that possible? Angry mirth? Well, Baba, your final suggestion was just as ridiculous.)

Thank you again, dear Sr. Tres H. You're the bomb.

And to disconnectedsmile: Don't let controversy get in the way of continuing to search for ways to be kind. Nobody said it's not going to be a bumpy ride, but stay sweet. OK?


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## butch (Dec 1, 2007)

I was thinking about this last night, and while I'm not suggesting the OP do this, I always wonder in general when this topic comes up (the fat person who isn't in to SA/FA, and wants to lose weight), that people who endorse, if only partially, the fat person's desire to lose weight, don't also suggest that the person add therapy alongside any diet or exercise routine. 

While I personaly am not a supporter of weight loss (partially because I have lost weight in the past and it didn't make my life any better), what I am a supporter of is, if anyone has at least one mental/emotional reason that makes them feel they need to lose weight, then they should see a therapist alongside a nutritionist, a doctor, and a fitness instructor. Believe me, even if the individual is succesful beyond their wildest dreams in losing weight, there's gonna be emotional stuff that needs to be dealt with (as I can imagine anyone who has successfully kept off a lot of weight can tell you). Also, as others have pointed out in this thread, a lot of the feelings that might cause a person to want to lose weight are feelings that aren't 100% related to fat, and thus, when the fat goes away, the feelings are still there. Shy when you're fat? Chances are you'll be shy when you're thin.

Regardless of your opinion about fat, why one is fat, the merits of weight loss, etc., I think we could agree that therapy can only help an individual who is struggling with being fat in a world that isn't too keen on making fat people feel good about themselves.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 1, 2007)

butch said:


> I was thinking about this last night, and while I'm not suggesting the OP do this, I always wonder in general when this topic comes up (the fat person who isn't in to SA/FA, and wants to lose weight), that people who endorse, if only partially, the fat person's desire to lose weight, don't also suggest that the person add therapy alongside any diet or exercise routine.
> 
> While I personaly am not a supporter of weight loss (partially because I have lost weight in the past and it didn't make my life any better), what I am a supporter of is, if anyone has at least one mental/emotional reason that makes them feel they need to lose weight, then they should see a therapist alongside a nutritionist, a doctor, and a fitness instructor. Believe me, even if the individual is succesful beyond their wildest dreams in losing weight, there's gonna be emotional stuff that needs to be dealt with (as I can imagine anyone who has successfully kept off a lot of weight can tell you). Also, as others have pointed out in this thread, a lot of the feelings that might cause a person to want to lose weight are feelings that aren't 100% related to fat, and thus, when the fat goes away, the feelings are still there. Shy when you're fat? Chances are you'll be shy when you're thin.
> 
> Regardless of your opinion about fat, why one is fat, the merits of weight loss, etc., I think we could agree that therapy can only help an individual who is struggling with being fat in a world that isn't too keen on making fat people feel good about themselves.



I don't think that everyone who wants to lose weight needs a therapist. Some people are just bigger than they want to be and go about the business of losing it. It's not always the be all and end all of somebody's life. There may or may not be emotional stuff.

The fact that it won't change a person's life or personality does not mean much. As Elle pointed out above, it's possible that your life problems are related to fat (Torrid's new catalogue sucks and you want to start shopping at Banana Republic) or you'd like a wider range of male admireres from which to choose. If you lose weight, those problems will be solved. As for shyness, well, the confidence in achieving a goal or in having a body in which you are more comfortable may make you more outgoing.

Sometimes I also think the acceptance idea is overplayed. As in "your problem is not your weight, it's the lack of size acceptance and if you could just learn to like yourself fat, you'd be ok." That is not always going to work.


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## pani (Dec 1, 2007)

I didn't have time to read the entire thread so apologies if I said exactly what someone else did. IMO as a sociologist, it is really about conforming. Many people have a deep seated need to conform to what society says. If society said fat = happiness, they would try to gain weight. These type of people won't change their thinking until they have grown as a person. I never try to change them, but I do consider cutting them out of my life if they try to spread their negativity to me. If we can agree to disagree fine. Sadly, I find that few people can do this, their own desire to conform is projected to others. Sometimes it is very subtle, like "concerns for health," but I always come away from them taxed and tired. I am very honest in stating my feelings, and I have far fewer friends than most people, but they are of a much higher quality.


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## GWARrior (Dec 1, 2007)

pani said:


> I didn't have time to read the entire thread so apologies if I said exactly what someone else did. IMO as a sociologist, it is really about conforming. Many people have a deep seated need to conform to what society says. If society said fat = happiness, they would try to gain weight. These type of people won't change their thinking until they have grown as a person. I never try to change them, but I do consider cutting them out of my life if they try to spread their negativity to me. If we can agree to disagree fine. Sadly, I find that few people can do this, their own desire to conform is projected to others. Sometimes it is very subtle, like "concerns for health," but I always come away from them taxed and tired. I am very honest in stating my feelings, and I have far fewer friends than most people, but they are of a much higher quality.



Well, Im not a sociologust and I knew that. 

Anyway, cutting a friend out of your life simply because they want to feel better about themselves is selfish in my opinion. If the OP were to cut his friend out of his life just because she wants to lose weight, what kind of message does that send? "I'll only be friends with you if you stay fat"

wtf?

If i went around ignoring the people that annoyed me once in a while, Id be very lonely. And chances are Im just as annoying to them at times.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 1, 2007)

GWARrior said:


> Well, Im not a sociologust and I knew that.
> 
> Anyway, cutting a friend out of your life simply because they want to feel better about themselves is selfish in my opinion. If the OP were to cut his friend out of his life just because she wants to lose weight, what kind of message does that send? "I'll only be friends with you if you stay fat"
> 
> ...



I also don't think concerns for one's health are such a bad thing. In some cases it's as blatant as having diabetes or a joint condition where the body simply can not bear a lot of weight without pain, and in some cases it's a matter of mental or spiritual health.

I'm also sick of the whole "anybody that wants to lose weight is some sort of a mindless manipulated victim of society sheep who is too stupid and/or weak minded to think for him or herself."


----------



## butch (Dec 1, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I don't think that everyone who wants to lose weight needs a therapist. Some people are just bigger than they want to be and go about the business of losing it. It's not always the be all and end all of somebody's life. There may or may not be emotional stuff.
> 
> The fact that it won't change a person's life or personality does not mean much. As Elle pointed out above, it's possible that your life problems are related to fat (Torrid's new catalogue sucks and you want to start shopping at Banana Republic) or you'd like a wider range of male admireres from which to choose. If you lose weight, those problems will be solved. As for shyness, well, the confidence in achieving a goal or in having a body in which you are more comfortable may make you more outgoing.
> 
> Sometimes I also think the acceptance idea is overplayed. As in "your problem is not your weight, it's the lack of size acceptance and if you could just learn to like yourself fat, you'd be ok." That is not always going to work.



I think for someone who intends to lose a significant amount of weight, then even if their particular problems (meeting more possible partners, feeling sexier in certain clothes, etc) are alleviated due to the weight loss, then they at least could benefit from therapy because it is an adjustment to living in a thinner body. A big adjustment, imo and in my experience. So, a therapist would help someone learn to live as a thin(ner) person.

I certainly don't think one size fits all when it comes to something as significant and life changing as large, permanent weight loss. But the lack of attention, in general, to the mental components of how we live as people who have a complex relationship to fat is something that I wouldn't down play. And therapy isn't always something one turns to when they are unhappy; possibly for the kind of person you allude to above, LovesBHMS, they might benefit from a life coach type situation, where it is more about maximizing one's potential than it is addressing 'mental health' issues. 


Bottom line is, I think any kind of change that involves a permanent commitment to a way of life that, quite frankly, most people can not sustain (the most optimistic estimates about the success of diets is heavily weighted towards failure), is a mind/body problem, and wouldn't one want to utilize every tool available to them to make sure they adjust both their body and mind towards the goal of losing weight and keeping it off? That certainly isn't a paradigm that pathologizes people's personal opinions about fat, but gives them the best possibility of success.

Kudos to anyone who can do it-lose weight, keep it off, and not feel like their feelings and/or habits of behavior aren't problematically affected by the change in their body size and shape. In my experience, and in the experiences of folks I met in support groups for folks with EDs, this wasn't apparent. Thus, my personal belief in the benefit of some sort of attention to the mental side of dealing with weight loss and/or EDs.

As far as the acceptance thing goes-it may not work for everyone to be size acceptant, and I would never treat someone poorly who felt that SA was not for them. I would point out, that at some point we have to accept ourselves as flawed human beings, and at what point do we actually realize that we can't change certain things about ourselves? The serenity prayer is great here, because it reminds us that none of us can be perfect, and that all of us have to live with things about ourselves that will never change, no matter how much we want it to. So, again, if someone finds that, no matter how bad they want to be thin, that they can't do it (for whatever reason), then doesn't therapy offer them a way to begin to learn how to deal with the aftermath of that? Not to say "You should have been size acceptant all along" but to say "You've realized that you'll never be as thin as you'd like, so how do you learn to get what you want out of life, and how to like what you have, at the weight you are today?" 

I think, either way, some sort of attention to the mental in this process of reckoning with our bodies is only helpful, but, as with anything else, your results may vary.


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## Shosh (Dec 1, 2007)

butch said:


> I was thinking about this last night, and while I'm not suggesting the OP do this, I always wonder in general when this topic comes up (the fat person who isn't in to SA/FA, and wants to lose weight), that people who endorse, if only partially, the fat person's desire to lose weight, don't also suggest that the person add therapy alongside any diet or exercise routine.
> 
> While I personaly am not a supporter of weight loss (partially because I have lost weight in the past and it didn't make my life any better), what I am a supporter of is, if anyone has at least one mental/emotional reason that makes them feel they need to lose weight, then they should see a therapist alongside a nutritionist, a doctor, and a fitness instructor. Believe me, even if the individual is succesful beyond their wildest dreams in losing weight, there's gonna be emotional stuff that needs to be dealt with (as I can imagine anyone who has successfully kept off a lot of weight can tell you). Also, as others have pointed out in this thread, a lot of the feelings that might cause a person to want to lose weight are feelings that aren't 100% related to fat, and thus, when the fat goes away, the feelings are still there. Shy when you're fat? Chances are you'll be shy when you're thin.
> 
> Regardless of your opinion about fat, why one is fat, the merits of weight loss, etc., I think we could agree that therapy can only help an individual who is struggling with being fat in a world that isn't too keen on making fat people feel good about themselves.




Butch,
You are so right when you say that there are often emotional issues that go hand in hand with losing weight. I have stuggled with that a lot since losing weight due to my health issues. I have found that I have been very anxious and have felt lost at times. Weight loss is good for your health, but it is not a panacea.


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## EtobicokeFA (Dec 3, 2007)

Jes said:


> If you have read all of the posts in this thread so far, and you are still asking these questions, I honestly don't know what more to tell you. Either you can discuss the thing academically or you can't. The arguments of the 'con' position have been very clear and very logical. If you don't agree, you don't agree, but I think you're talking about something the rest of us aren't (save for the OP, possibly)





mossystate said:


> Last night, before I strapped on my pajamas ( don't ask ), I read Baba's post..and I chuckled..I rolled both my eyeballs..and I knew I would wake. knowing some fine people would have smacked him upside HIS melon.
> 
> FA savior...who said that?..* looks at the crowd *.. I cannot take the time to back out of this message..and scroll. I would like to give you this cookie and this stack of catalogs ( i want them out of my house ).
> 
> ...





butch said:


> I think for someone who intends to lose a significant amount of weight, then even if their particular problems (meeting more possible partners, feeling sexier in certain clothes, etc) are alleviated due to the weight loss, then they at least could benefit from therapy because it is an adjustment to living in a thinner body. A big adjustment, imo and in my experience. So, a therapist would help someone learn to live as a thin(ner) person.
> 
> I certainly don't think one size fits all when it comes to something as significant and life changing as large, permanent weight loss. But the lack of attention, in general, to the mental components of how we live as people who have a complex relationship to fat is something that I wouldn't down play. And therapy isn't always something one turns to when they are unhappy; possibly for the kind of person you allude to above, LovesBHMS, they might benefit from a life coach type situation, where it is more about maximizing one's potential than it is addressing 'mental health' issues.
> 
> ...



I have reread the posts, and I still believe in what I stated. The guy is concern about his girlfriend being shy and insecure, and that she feels that weight loss is going to the magic bullet for her. Two things you can do without weight loss. 

Based on his post she feels that size acceptance is a consolation prize, for those who can't get to the size they think they should be, some people seem to hint at that here on this thread as well!

Some people believe that helping someone try to not hate their body is wrong, because it goes against her choice.

So, where is the line between hate ones body because you are influenced by society, or it's really you choice?

I am sorry, but gently encouraging someone to love themselves for who they are, is never wrong, and should never require permission, from the other person. 

And, outside of trying to be as health as you can be, size acceptance should be about being happy with your body. 

A while, I don't encourage forcing the issue on her, I would recommend being supportive, and loving towards her. Ask want she wants to do when she is thin, and try to encourage her to do as much of that stuff as possible now.


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## butch (Dec 3, 2007)

EtobicokeFA,

Believe me, if we lived in a perfect world (otherwise known as a world where everyone agreed with me 100% of the time) then I would never encourage anyone to change their body in order to feel 'better' about themselves. I feel very strongly that part of being human is learning to enjoy being in whatever body you were born in, and that this would be possible in a world that didn't favor certain types of bodies over others.

But that isn't the world we live in, and in fact there are lots of reasons people go through difficult, painful, and hard processes in order to change parts of their bodies that can be beneficial to the individual and not body-hating. One obvious example is the work that a professional athlete does to maintain a body that can function at peak efficiency at all times (and I'm not referring to steriods and such here). Most of their bodies wouldn't look the way they do 'naturally' if they didn't focus on diet, exercies, etc. So, they've changed their body, but none of us would criticize their choice to intentionally, and intensely, change the body they were born with in order to be better athletes. 

Thus, if a fat person wants to be thinner (or a thin person wants to be fatter) and they can maintain that without too much internal or external struggle, then who I am to tell them no? Or tell them they're making a bad choice? It doesn't matter if I endorse their behavior, but if I'm a friend I should support them. If I share my information about SA and they say "Hey, not for me" then what else can I do? I can be supportive and say "Well, I wouldn't do what you're doing, but you sound like you're making an informed choice and I'm here to support you as much as I can without violating my principles. I just want whats best for you and what will make you happy." And then, I can live my life as open and positive a champion for SA acceptance as possible, by not shouting and badgering people to be SA, but to demonstrate the joy and inner peace one gets when they accept their body, whatever size it is. This stance towards the ambivalent or resistant fat person is not anti-SA, but it does respect that these choices aren't easy ones to make, and that love and friendship should not be contingent on the size of anyone's body, at any point during the friendship. 

SA is by no means a consolation prize, the lesser of two choices. What is more important than SA, to me at least, is that everyone learns to live a life where they are happy, authentic, and making the most of the life they have. So maybe my zeal for human acceptance trumps my zeal for size acceptance, which is the ultimate goal of SA, anyway: that we all learn that body diversity of all kinds is fab.


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## EtobicokeFA (Dec 4, 2007)

butch said:


> EtobicokeFA,
> 
> Believe me, if we lived in a perfect world (otherwise known as a world where everyone agreed with me 100% of the time) then I would never encourage anyone to change their body in order to feel 'better' about themselves. I feel very strongly that part of being human is learning to enjoy being in whatever body you were born in, and that this would be possible in a world that didn't favor certain types of bodies over others.
> 
> ...



And, I for one am not going to stand in the way, of any fat person, that wants to get healthier, as long as they don't think it is just a simple process of dropping the pounds. However, we are talking about a woman that believes that losing weight, will cure her of her body issues. And, that is or should be a completely different issue. This is about body image pure and simple!

Growing up with with a couple of veterans from the civil rights movements of the 60's I was taught, that you can't always sit around waiting and hoping that the other side comes around to you side of thinking. Most civil rights where won by challenging the other sides views on the issues. For those who don't know, this is not nagging or forcing, but in this case, having open discussions on the topic, letting her demonstrate how she came to her opinion, show her alternatives to her path of logic, as well as how you feel! 

We had also had a saying back when I was growing up, that went "A real test of a true friend, is if they are willing to stand up against you, if they think you are going to do something stupid, and if failing that, help you lick your wounds, without saying 'I told you so! '" 

At risk of becoming unpopular, we have to ask ourselves; are we violating our principles, by letting the people we care about, declare war on their bodies, based on some BS ideals they where handed by society, just because we want to respect their choices. When people try to encourage people they care about, out of their gambling addictions or off dangerous drugs, nobody goes off, and slams them from not respecting that person's choices! So, why is a person choice to buy into the BS of society, seem to be so prized?

In short, and I feel that speak for at least a few men and women out there, that there should be more that we can do, than just sit on the sidelines and hope for the day, that the people we love and care about find Size Acceptance on their own!


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## butch (Dec 4, 2007)

I appreciate your stance, and think it has value, but I don't think my approach is 'standing on the sidelines.' If you knew me in real life, you'd know how far from true that is. With that being said, I'm not just about the acceptance of fat people, I'm for the acceptance of all people who feel that something about their body is at odds with what society says that should be, whehter it is fat, thin, disabled, transgendered, racial, etc. And some of those people (disabled or transgendered, for example) do benefit from drastically changing their body, whether I 'approve' of it or not. 

Thus, I must also grant that some people will benefit from being thinner than fatter, even if it violates my personal principles, because I do not live in their body, and thus I have no right to tell them how to treat their body. I'm pro-choice when it comes to the individual and their body. And, as I stated in my first post, the reality is all available evidence suggests that a vast majority of diets fail, and most doctors recognize that WLS is not the optimum way to 'treat obesity,' (hence the huge push to find a drug or 'drugs' to 'treat obesity'), so the reality is, eventually that person who is anti-SA will learn how much they can get from a SA frame of mind. Most of us don't learn things until we really experience it ourselves, and coming to SA is something that I think many of us don't learn until we get to it the hard way, through failed diets and the rest.

And finally, most of my softening of my own beliefs about WLS, losing weight, and the rest, came from interacting with the people here who have made the choice to be thinner and are finding benefits from this without abandoning their pro-SA views and their support and appreciation for fat bodies. How can I discount them, and deny their truths, in denying that one should never support another person who wants to be thinner?


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## EtobicokeFA (Dec 4, 2007)

butch said:


> I appreciate your stance, and think it has value, but I don't think my approach is 'standing on the sidelines.' If you knew me in real life, you'd know how far from true that is. With that being said, I'm not just about the acceptance of fat people, I'm for the acceptance of all people who feel that something about their body is at odds with what society says that should be, whehter it is fat, thin, disabled, transgendered, racial, etc. And some of those people (disabled or transgendered, for example) do benefit from drastically changing their body, whether I 'approve' of it or not.
> 
> Thus, I must also grant that some people will benefit from being thinner than fatter, even if it violates my personal principles, because I do not live in their body, and thus I have no right to tell them how to treat their body. I'm pro-choice when it comes to the individual and their body. And, as I stated in my first post, the reality is all available evidence suggests that a vast majority of diets fail, and most doctors recognize that WLS is not the optimum way to 'treat obesity,' (hence the huge push to find a drug or 'drugs' to 'treat obesity'), so the reality is, eventually that person who is anti-SA will learn how much they can get from a SA frame of mind. Most of us don't learn things until we really experience it ourselves, and coming to SA is something that I think many of us don't learn until we get to it the hard way, through failed diets and the rest.
> 
> And finally, most of my softening of my own beliefs about WLS, losing weight, and the rest, came from interacting with the people here who have made the choice to be thinner and are finding benefits from this without abandoning their pro-SA views and their support and appreciation for fat bodies. How can I discount them, and deny their truths, in denying that one should never support another person who wants to be thinner?



I appreciate your views and really appreciate what you to for size acceptance, but a lot of people don't make it to be thinner, and are just in a endless loop of dieting, and blaming themselves when the diet fails. Add to that the faith that all will be right with the world if they reach x number of pounds, and you get a spiral that a lot of people don't get out of, at least, not without outside intervention! So, when do you pull them out if you do?

The million dollar question is, of the people who  benefit from drastically changing their body, is it because they fit into society better, and don't have to worry about size discrimination as much, or it's something more scientific? 

See, we live a world, where if you have the money, you don't have to live your big nose, small bra size or anything like that. You just fix it, to fit in! And, yes a person will fill happy after they replace their big nose, with a normal one, but is that right? 

When do we draw the line, between making ourselves acceptable to society and making society acceptable to us?


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## butch (Dec 4, 2007)

I just have to say, I love the last line of your post-brilliant! I'm glad we're having these discussions, EtobicokeFA, because I think there is room for both of us to find common ground, and hopefully that common ground is big enough to hold people who may not feel as strongly as you or I do about the benefits of staying larger and of SA.

I wish there were clearer answers about these issues, but I do hope for a future that lessens the amount of stigma that surrounds the fat body (and other bodies deemed non-'normative'). Hopefully you and I'll see that future soon!


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