# A Matter Of Confidence



## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

i was thinking. one of the main things a lot of FAs mention that they are attracted to in a woman is confidence. i wonder how some of the FAs here feel conditional acceptance on their part figures in a woman's self confidence? i sometmes wonder if this self confidence thats often spoken of here is just a euphemism for a woman willing to show her body and let it be used as a toy? is it self confident when a woman says that its okay to throw the rest of her away if and when her body does not meet a requirement? a woman with real self confidence would probaby not ever accept some of the kinds of relationships i've seen described here, or have seen out and about in the community for that matter. so i've always wondered how some of the FAs have been able to reconcile things in their own mind.


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

Self confidence, like almost everything, is relative.

When I say I want a self confident woman, that doesn't mean I need a paysite girl. I want her to believe me when I tell her she's beautiful. But that's only one part of the equation. To me, self confidence is someone who knows entirely who they are, and are proud of it. Someone that is strong and who rates their own opinion above anyone else's, including mine.

Also, I don't think there's a need to bash the "relationships going on here." If you are too high and mighty to possibly have anything to do with what has become "the dark side of dimensions", that's fine. But don't take shots at consenting adults engaging doing whatever the hell they want. That's somewhat childish. If you've somehow have developed the idea that all the girls here are just "playing along" with some twisted male sex game, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Of course I can't defend the female point on this so I'll wait for someone like AnnMarie to drop the ultimate post.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

mfdoom said:


> Self confidence, like almost everything, is relative.
> 
> Also, I don't think there's a need to bash the "relationships going on here." If you are too high and mighty to possibly have anything to do with what has become "the dark side of dimensions", that's fine. But don't take shots at consenting adults engaging doing whatever the hell they want. That's somewhat childish. If you've somehow have developed the idea that all the girls here are just "playing along" with some twisted male sex game, I'm not really sure what to tell you.
> 
> Of course I can't defend the female point on this so I'll wait for someone like AnnMarie to drop the ultimate post.



i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.

i'm not bashing. here is what i said. and please note that i use the word SOME as a qualifier. also you misquoted me when you wrote "relationships going on here": 

"a woman with real self confidence would probably not ever accept SOME of the KINDS OF RELATIONSHIPS I"V SEEN DESCRIBED HERE, or have seen out and about in the community for that matter. so i've always wondered how some of the FAs have been able to reconcile things in their own mind. "

please don't change the spirit of my question. it contains a valid argument. don't discount it because perhaps you don't really want to think about it or answer it yourself. it is a hard question for people to ask themselves. i've had many FAs tell me so. this is an honest exploration and i have always wondered. there was no hostility in my question that you tried to impart to it.

i'm sure every woman here both online and out and about in the community know about some screwed up couples situations they've seen. they're even honest enough to say that they've even participated in some before they grew into themselves as women. i'm not going to keep pretending that all of things i've seen in the bbw community or the acceptance community are perfect. its full of people and people are imperfect. i think there has been too much white washing for too long anyway--way too much tiptoeing around fragile egos. 

you are also making ASSUMPTIONS about the type of relationships i'm talking about anyway. when i say relationships i'm not talking about how people organize their sexuality. so often when relationships are discussed here it degenerates into a who is f--king who, how they are f---ing them, how many at a time and how big is the person gettng f--ked and is it ok. a relationship is so much more than sexuality alone. i'm only talking about emotional relationships where women are NOT getting what they need. i hate to tell you but women get a lot of self confidence from things outside of the bedroom.

i really don't care what people do as consenting adults but i also don't like the idea that some women might feel compelled to do things that don't make them personally happy as a part of a relationship. even if i didn't engage in certain aspects of what has been characterized by YOU as "the dark side of dimensions" it doesn't mean that i judge them in any aspect except in regards to how i would feel if i were personally asked to particiate. and yes i do have an opinion about whether i think it would work for me or not. as a confident woman i allow myself to have and do have very strong opinions about what i want and need. but my opinions end where the rights of other people begin. and i will ask questions and state my opinions about what i see going on because i think its important to think about it and to learn. if i'm too high and mighty aka confident as a woman to think my happiness and the happiness of other women is important then so be it!



people are always telling us that we are asking too much. its usually the people who want to give us too little.


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## William (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi Super

I can't rep you until I rep someone else 

William




superodalisque said:


> i think self confidence is NOT relative............snip


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## Fyreflyintheskye (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.
> 
> i'm not bashing. here is what i said. and please note that i use the word SOME as a qualifier. also you misquoted me when you wrote "relationships going on here":
> 
> ...





I'm _relatively_ turned on when you pwn someone, Felecia :wubu: Love you! P.S. that last sentence you wrote really hits the nail on the head.

And, William, you can rep me in the interim rofl


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## wrestlingguy (Feb 4, 2008)

You bring up an excellent question, Felicia. 

When Carla and I met in 2001, she was just beginning to develop her own website with one of the other girls. I was immediately attracted to how confident she was as a person. She would get e-mails & messages all the time telling her how hot she is, shat they would do to her if they had her, etc.

Early on, we talked about dating, and I told her that I didn't have the patience to deal with the garbage that paysite girls hear from all of these trolls, who knew nothing about her other than the size of her ass. What I learned over the next few months was that her confidence had NOTHING to do with what she heard from other guys. In fact it had begun to annoy her more than me. The fact that this beautiful, confident woman wanted ME, even though she had so many other choices made me want her even more.

By November of 2001, whe had already decided to give up modeling. I wanted to spend more time with her, and gave my radio show & website to one of my friends (who killed both in less than 6 months). Some of you who know me know the things I'm confident about, one of them is my ability to speak in front of crowds, or on radio & tv. I think the fact that I gave up that small degree of noteriety in the wrestling business was a big thing for Carla as well. She knew it was important to me, and it certainly appeared to be a huge sacrifice.

Over the past 6 years, Carl and I have gone back to our respective "second careers": her to modeling again, and me back to running a wrestling school & promotion. The one constant, however, besides our love, is that I have always found her confidence to be as sexy as her body. One of the highlights of our relationship, was a night about a year and a half ago at a BBW mini bash. We were supposed to have a pool party at the hotel, but there were several people not from our group still in the pool. No one wanted to get in while they were still swimming........that is, except Carla. She proceeded to get down to her bikini, get in the pool, and strike up a conversation with the family. Eventually everyone else jumped in as well.

It's that confidence that makes her so attractive to me, almost 6 years later.

I think there's a difference, however, between that type of confidence, and the one expressed by trolls who love that confidence until they have sex, then try to relegate said confident girl to the hotel room while hey hang with their non-FA buddies, who wouldn't understand, and would give the troll heat for being with a "fattie". So, the troll's idea of confidence in a BBW is more from that willingness to share her body so freely, which may have little or nothing to do with confidence at all.

I hope I'm not stirring the pot with this post. That is just how I see what goes on.


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## ZainTheInsane (Feb 4, 2008)

Think about it this way...

FAs deal with an abundance of women who continually remind us that our preference is either wrong, gross, weird, deranged, odd, kinky, or whatever else you'd like to put in there to describe our likes as being far from normal.

Most women (not all...but the vast majority), whatever their size, are NOT confident about their body, nor are they confident in their size, shape, and so forth. Thus, FAs are able to justify their desire for someone confident in their looks, and perhaps confident in little else, simply because those women are willing to accept the idea that a guy likes their fatness, their curves, their flab, their figure.

Never assume that the bbws, or bhm in general are the ones who are under fire, or damaged goods. the FAs and FFAs out there are likely to be just as injured, hurt, damaged, and crushed down by societies standards as someone who is fat...and simple because they happen to LIKE something unusual, or deviating from the norm.

Psychologically, it is a lot harder to accept a mental attribute than a physical one, because the mental attribute is likely developed through certain events in one's life. Where as being fat is physical, and if you are naturally a bigger person, then it is harder to be confident in multiple aspects of your life, if you're not confident in the way you look.

Therefore, I submit that in these relationships, the bbw AND the FA both settle. The FA because they finally found an accepting partner, who is okay with their preference, despite any deficiencies....and the bbw because they found someone who enjoys their confidence in their body, and isn't trying to knock it down.

This, of course, is flawed...because there are always creeps, assholes, and freaks out there who like using and abusing people (this goes for both sides of the bbw/fa coin...or bhm/ffa coin). But for most...I think it is from a simple lack of belief in there being more possible.

That's my thoughts on it anyway.


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 4, 2008)

When I say I'm attracted to a woman's _self_-confidence that's exactly what I mean. Most women realize they are more than just their aesthetic appearance. Far fewer seem to appreciate how much physical beauty exists in the context of attitude*. As an analogy, attitude is much more than the lighting and frame of a painting. It is the comprehensive space in which the painting exists. Self-confidence then is the willingness to freely and openly share that entire space and allow the physical countenance to assume its' proper portion and position. A self-confident woman is one who will trust men to see and notice her as something far beyond what shows in the mirror. Much more I could say about this and better but duty calls. Great question though.

*I'd prefer the term "spirit" rather than attitude but then run the risk of suggesting some willowy, new-age meta-concept. "Spirit" as I would intend is strong, palpable and unambiguous.


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## lovessbbw (Feb 4, 2008)

Self confidence = self respect in my mind. I think many confuse bravado for self confidence.


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## Jes (Feb 4, 2008)

There's also a similar question going in the opposite direction. I have, for a long time now, wondered about the slippage I see between women who have self confidence, find themselves attractive (save for a bad day now and then), believe others can find them attractive, and all the stories I hear from men who talk about self-hating fat women.

Don't get me wrong: I'm very sure there are self-hating fat women, and a good number of them, at that.

But I ALSO know that when I bring up certain topics among FAs, I'm almost always immediately told that I don't like myself, I don't have good self esteem, I'm trying to follow the masses not my own wants or desires, I don't feel attractive.

I'm starting to see that perhaps what some FAs see as lack of good self-esteem is, in fact, related to what the FA thinks we should be thinking. I've always said that being that objectifying something and being the OBJECT of that objectification are 2 very different things.

Is it that a woman says: oh god, I'm hideous and should wear a bag over my entire body, go away and leave me alone!
(yes, I know this does happen for some people at some times)

or, is it that I say: Well, yeah, I think I can be cute, definitely, but I don't think it's because of my fat stomach. Or: I'm not really ...turned ON by my fat. I don't feel lust for myself, though I do like that I'm soft, or whatever. You know, the sort of thing I think most women feel about themselves. We can't divorce our bodies from our fat, like the stuff Oprah pulled around on stage after herself. We're all of it, and I don't think most self-accepting fat women would relate to their bodies much differently that self-accepting thin women, in conceptual terms, in linguistic terms. 

But I often hear from the FAs I encounter here that if I'm not saying OOOh, my fat thighs are hot! oooh, I love my fat rolls! oooh, I'm better because I have a bigger ass than you do! that I don't love myself. That I'm not accepting of my fat. That I'm not proud of myself.

I don't know how to be proud of myself as a fat woman. I only know how to be proud of myself as a woman. I only know how to be proud of myself.

If an FA expects us to be proud of ourselves (or turned on by ourselves) as fat women (in other words, to objectify ourselves in the way they do--and I say that w/o an agenda, we all objectify others to an extent, especially when we're turned on by someone) In The Exact Same Ways They Do, for our fatness, or whatever, then it's no wonder so many FAs talk about being involved with women who don't have self esteem. 

Maybe we're just basing self esteem on a very different set of criteria.


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## KnottyOne (Feb 4, 2008)

With all women its all about confidence with me. And that has absolutely nothing to do with their body in anyway at all. People who are confident are willing to take a lot more risks, have a lot more fun and are just willing to live life so much more because they are willing to go out and not give a damn what people are gonna say about them. And that's just in friends. When it comes to romantic stuff, its equally if not more important. If someoneis constantly saying stuff like "You are way to hot for me" or "to nice" or "to good" and not in the loving way or in the joking way, then I dont think I'm alone in this in saying I really dont want to have anything to do woth them because all their doing is beating themselves up constantly. It really doesnt have anything to do with the body, confidence is confidence, and its important, at least for me to have any kind of relationship with someone.


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## Tina (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't.


I agree. But I also believe that sometimes you don't have it until you do, if that makes sense. I think that society and family can take away that confidence, but I also believe that we can instill it within ourselves if we work at it and are open to having it enough that we have the receptivity to embrace it.

For me, it was a conscious journey and not something that I just all of a sudden got one day. I don't know about paysites, but being in the print mag was a part of the journey for me. Just a part of it, but it was also conquering a fear (of having my photo taken), and conquering fears is also empowering, which can help one's confidence -- above and beyond the compliments one receives.

Do I have my days where I don't feel so great about myself? Yeah. I think most people do, to one degree or another, but I do feel confidence as a woman, and as a fat woman. The second feels more like confidence in the face of scorn or seeming negative judgement. 

It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 4, 2008)

I just like to hang with people who don't take shit from anybody (including me) whether they happen to be men or women. This is also what I like about cats and rabbits, so it even transcends species.


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 4, 2008)

Tina said:


> It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.



BINGO!!!
:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:


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## ZainTheInsane (Feb 4, 2008)

Tina said:


> I agree. But I also believe that sometimes you don't have it until you do, if that makes sense. I think that society and family can take away that confidence, but I also believe that we can instill it within ourselves if we work at it and are open to having it enough that we have the receptivity to embrace it.
> 
> For me, it was a conscious journey and not something that I just all of a sudden got one day. I don't know about paysites, but being in the print mag was a part of the journey for me. Just a part of it, but it was also conquering a fear (of having my photo taken), and conquering fears is also empowering, which can help one's confidence -- above and beyond the compliments one receives.
> 
> ...



Just to put my own thoughts into this point...I think a lot of times false confidence, or the front of confidence, is better then no confidence at all. I think it is amazing what a show of confidence can do for someone who doesn't have it, and how, if utilized enough, false confidence can transform into confidence.

Anything can take away confidence...but being able to put up a wall/front of being confident, and self-assured, even when your not, facing your fears, and acting like you aren't shaken, helps more than anyone could imagine, at least that's my own experience with confidence. 

And families, friends, relatives, and society may take away confidence...but it would be one-sided to say that sometimes family and friends give you more confidence. It really depends on who they are, and how confident they are.

For instance, my girlfriend is not at all confident in her body, yet I find her body lovely. Thus far we've agreed to disagree...but the problems she's having stem from the fact that her mother continually told her that she wasn't thin enough for something she adored in her youth (and still does, though it took a while for her to admit it to me), which is ballet. She loves dancing. Yet, because of her mother's own perception and judgement of ballet, and her daughter...she's had a hard time not only accepting the ideas coming from me that she can dance, and has a dancer's figure (good god are her legs huge...dancers legs indeed!), but she also worries about her weight, and her self-image suffers. Yet, many of her friends, and even some of her family think she's too thin. Her mother even recently asked if I'd hurt myself when I picked my girlfriend up, and carried her from the couch into the bedroom, insinuating that her daughter is way too heavy to be picked up by a guy my size.

That's, in my mind, a typical example...yet there are also examples of families and friends who are supportive. My friend is 300+ pounds, and though he isn't necessarily happy with his weight for his own reasons, his family, his wife, and his friends have never given him any serious flack for his weight. In fact if he lost weight, or his appetite, I think everyone around him would be shocked and dismayed. He is the quinisential (sp?) teddy bear.

A co-worker of mine, Nicole, is nearly 400 pounds, and 5'2" or 5'3" and she is one of the most confident people I've met, and her boyfriend, her family, and her friends have never (in my year or two working with her off and on) made reference to her size except to say she is cuddly...and I think that was more of a reference to her personality.

So, my points being...
-False confidence is better then no confidence.

-False confidence can sometimes build into confidence and belief in one's self

-Family and friends can be counter-productive to building confidence...but they can also be the keys to making it stronger.

-Confrontation is not the key, and self-acceptance is the first acceptance to work towards

-Your family should be willing to hear you out and accept you...and if they aren't, they aren't worth your time.

-Your friends should ALSO hear you out, and accept you for you...if they don't...then why are they your friends?

-Facing your fears is incredibly important. Never let your fears drive you away from making your life what you want it to be.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

wrestlingguy said:


> You bring up an excellent question, Felicia.
> 
> When Carla and I met in 2001, she was just beginning to develop her own website with one of the other girls. I was immediately attracted to how confident she was as a person. She would get e-mails & messages all the time telling her how hot she is, shat they would do to her if they had her, etc.
> 
> ...




i tried to think of an eloquent response to the things you've said but the only thing apropriate is here! here!


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

ZainTheInsane said:


> Think about it this way...
> 
> FAs deal with an abundance of women who continually remind us that our preference is either wrong, gross, weird, deranged, odd, kinky, or whatever else you'd like to put in there to describe our likes as being far from normal.
> 
> .



yes, thats a shame. i can definitely understand that. it sounds like FAs need a good old shot in the confidence too. what do you think would help? do you think thats being addressed a all in the acceptance movement? maybe you guys need to hold a protest or a sit in at the next NAAFA or something about being made to feel that way.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

Jes said:


> ...But I ALSO know that when I bring up certain topics among FAs, I'm almost always immediately told that I don't like myself, I don't have good self esteem, I'm trying to follow the masses not my own wants or desires, I don't feel attractive.
> 
> I'm starting to see that perhaps what some FAs see as lack of good self-esteem is, in fact, related to what the FA thinks we should be thinking. I've always said that being that objectifying something and being the OBJECT of that objectification are 2 very different things.
> 
> ...



yes. we do. i really wonder why that is?


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

Zain thats a great point about faking it until you make it. thats the kind of false self esteem i CAN advocate. i think psychlogists do it with their patients. its very theraputic fakery and a whole lot different from the kind that people use to mask how they feel when they are not really trying to make an emotional transition.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

Tina said:


> For me, it was a conscious journey and not something that I just all of a sudden got one day. I don't know about paysites, but being in the print mag was a part of the journey for me. Just a part of it, but it was also conquering a fear (of having my photo taken), and conquering fears is also empowering, which can help one's confidence -- above and beyond the compliments one receives.
> 
> ...It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.




thats why i think web modeling and print modeling can be great. i think in a way its more helpful to women than men lol (waits for the avalanche of disagreement from visually enhanced FAs). a bbw can get to look at the bodies of other bbws. she knows that the very fact that those photos are marketable that there is some interest. she knows that it takes courage to some level depending on the person. she might think" well if she can do that i can definitely try something simple like going sleeveless. it gets her to look at her own body and maybe finally contemplate its true desireability. i can understand how it would be very freeing to do it. in fact i ran a program for women once. its the reason i got into photographing myself. even though i had been an artists's model for a long time i found that the experience is very different from being drawn by another artist. 

anyway... i had a group of women photo themselves naked. a lot had never really looked at their bodies. they never had to show the photos to the group unless they wanted to but they did have to look at them and write about what they saw or what they thought they saw. in teh end a lot chose to allow their photos to be seen by the other women. we talked about what we felt about what we saw and lifestories relative to our bodies. overall a lot of women left with a better body image than the one they came with. for many years some had simply avoided looking very carefully because they were afraid of what they would see. looking and seeing took a little of the fear away.

i like the idea of thinking of you and anne marie walking and enjoying how you look and feel and being extraordinary. i like that feeling too. its kind of powerful and intoxicating. i think the key is that it doesn't have to be done through the eyes of others. its totally real. its great when you actually feel it within yourself and its not artificial. but if someone else is trying to mediate that all of the time it might undermine its development. that would be a real loss.


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## Just_Jen (Feb 4, 2008)

Jes said:


> There's also a similar question going in the opposite direction. I have, for a long time now, wondered about the slippage I see between women who have self confidence, find themselves attractive (save for a bad day now and then), believe others can find them attractive, and all the stories I hear from men who talk about self-hating fat women.
> 
> Don't get me wrong: I'm very sure there are self-hating fat women, and a good number of them, at that.
> 
> ...



i completely agree with you here! 

i think some peoples idea of confidence is different to what it is to me. I think it's definately relative to different people..what it means to be confident..

I do tend to wonder if to be a confident woman im supposed to be happy and not give a crap about certain things like what people think and say 24/7 but in reality i have good days where i feel like the sun shines out of my arse and bad days where i just want to hide from the world, but i dont necessarily think that means im not confident, just that im a female hormonal mess


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## southernfa (Feb 4, 2008)

From personal experience I find excessive over-confidence in anyone, male or female to be unappealing as it generally lacks care and consideration for the person in front of them. It can be arrogant and lacking in humility. I have met more people than I can remember who assume a false confidence that transparently masks some sort of lack of confidence; this seems a fragile bridge to base any relationship on. 

I'd suggest that in a sense, self-confidence is best described as a lack of self-doubt. There doesn't need to be any grandiose, in-your-face statement of self-worth; what is important (and relevant for this thread; attractive) is the quiet, assured freedom from doubt. If a man can find any woman with this quality, he has found a real goddess amongst her sisters. If she just happens to be a BBW as well... Juno incarnate!

Too many great comments to quote everyone but these two caught the eye.



superodalisque said:


> i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.



Just so. If we base our self-confidence on how we feel about our bodies, or how much we weigh, or what we think other people think; then it definitively is relative to those things. It also becomes subject to change because all those things will surely change. It will wax and wane and generally be fairly unreliable. So what should we place our confidence in?



Ernest Nagel said:


> When I say I'm attracted to a woman's _self_-confidence that's exactly what I mean. Most women realize they are more than just their aesthetic appearance. Far fewer seem to appreciate how much physical beauty exists in the context of attitude*. As an analogy, attitude is much more than the lighting and frame of a painting. It is the comprehensive space in which the painting exists. Self-confidence then is the willingness to freely and openly share that entire space and allow the physical countenance to assume its' proper portion and position. A self-confident woman is one who will trust men to see and notice her as something far beyond what shows in the mirror. Much more I could say about this and better but duty calls. Great question though.
> 
> *I'd prefer the term "spirit" rather than attitude but then run the risk of suggesting some willowy, new-age meta-concept. "Spirit" as I would intend is strong, palpable and unambiguous.



So, along with what a number of other posters have suggested, we have definitions for self confidence/respect in various contexts. But what is this self that everyone professes to respect?


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## Jes (Feb 4, 2008)

Just_Jen said:


> i have good days where i feel like the sun shines out of my arse and bad days where i just want to hide from the world, but i dont necessarily think that means im not confident, just that im a female hormonal mess



thanks!

and naw, not a mess. Just a human being.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

southernfa said:


> From personal experience I find excessive over-confidence in anyone, male or female to be unappealing as it generally lacks care and consideration for the person in front of them. It can be arrogant and lacking in humility. I have met more people than I can remember who assume a false confidence that transparently masks some sort of lack of confidence; this seems a fragile bridge to base any relationship on.
> 
> I'd suggest that in a sense, self-confidence is best described as a lack of self-doubt. There doesn't need to be any grandiose, in-your-face statement of self-worth; what is important (and relevant for this thread; attractive) is the quiet, assured freedom from doubt. If a man can find any woman with this quality, he has found a real goddess amongst her sisters. If she just happens to be a BBW as well... Juno incarnate!
> 
> ...



excessive over confidence? is there such a thing? for me what is being described there is more like false bravado. it might be necessary because it might be an important step on the road to develoing true self esteem. 

i think you are dead on about self doubt. 

as for placing our confidence in something i'd like to think that placing our self esteem in our worthiness as a human being is enough--even without kudos and accomplishments. i think its great to be very proud of what one does what one looks like etc... but to really know that even without those we are worthy is a beautiful thing--we are a beautiful thing. and i think this is a hint of the "self we are to respect. excuse me for going buddhist.


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## Tina (Feb 4, 2008)

ZainTheInsane said:


> Just to put my own thoughts into this point...I think a lot of times false confidence, or the front of confidence, is better then no confidence at all. I think it is amazing what a show of confidence can do for someone who doesn't have it, and how, if utilized enough, false confidence can transform into confidence.


That's also called "fake it 'till you make it," and it's better than nothing at all. Sometimes, it can turn into real confidence, if we are receptive to it.


superodalisque said:


> i like the idea of thinking of you and anne marie walking and enjoying how you look and feel and being extraordinary. i like that feeling too. its kind of powerful and intoxicating. i think the key is that it doesn't have to be done through the eyes of others. its totally real. its great when you actually feel it within yourself and its not artificial. but if someone else is trying to mediate that all of the time it might undermine its development. that would be a real loss.


I agree. Confidence just because you feel it, and having nothing to do with externals, is a great thing in both males and females, and tends to be attractive to others. And hey, it just feels danged good, too. 

Great thread, superodialisque. Thanks for it.


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## southernfa (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> excessive over confidence? is there such a thing? for me what is being described there is more like false bravado. it might be necessary because it might be an important step on the road to develoing true self esteem.


I was probably thinking more of men when I wrote that. One springs to mind from years ago; the scion of a wealthy family, tall, strapping, blond and handsome and just not that bright. He thought he was God's gift to the world, others would have been happier if he understood what he was talking about occasionally. I have met a couple of ladies in the same mold, but you could be right; it could have been false bravado. 



superodalisque said:


> as for placing our confidence in something i'd like to think that placing our self esteem in our worthiness as a human being is enough--even without kudos and accomplishments. i think its great to be very proud of what one does what one looks like etc... but to really know that even without those we are worthy is a beautiful thing--we are a beautiful thing. and i think this is a hint of the "self we are to respect. excuse me for going buddhist.


Buddhist? That would be Dr Feelgood's territory  I like the idea of 'our worthiness as a human being'; it feels good. But again, I have to beg the question... define worthiness?

BTW, thanks for a great thread.


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 4, 2008)

southernfa said:


> So, along with what a number of other posters have suggested, we have definitions for self confidence/respect in various contexts. *But what is this self that everyone professes to respect?*



Great question, SFA! In a Zen sense I would say that the self is that part of us which exists independently of all other referents; what would be left of us outside of and apart from all context. In a more practical sense I would say self is simply what we see from the inside, looking inside. That's different from our identity, which is what we see from the inside looking out. Basically it's one of those "You'll know it when you see it" or "If you need an explanation you can't have one" conversations. It reminds me of this passage from the Bhagavad Gita:

"As unnecessary as a well is
to a village on the banks of a river,
so unnecessary are all scriptures
to someone who has seen truth."

So no definition is necessary for someone who knows their true self and none is helpful for one who doesn't. Some women (Tina, AM, many others) have found their places on the banks of an endless river; they no longer need to go to any well for approval or affirmation. They can swim in it, dip their toes or splash it gleefully at one another. Others remain parched even as they crank endless buckets up from the well. Some will also attempt to cope by declaring the well irrelevant. 

I think this is true to some degree of both women and men. Women are just more likely to find the river. For a man, finding a woman who has found the river is as good or better than finding the river itself. I was trying to make sense here, I promise.  Back to work.


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## NancyGirl74 (Feb 4, 2008)

I haven't made it past the first few posts but I just have to say...Felecia, I love, love, love you! :bow:

I shall finish reading now....


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.
> 
> i'm not bashing. here is what i said. and please note that i use the word SOME as a qualifier. also you misquoted me when you wrote "relationships going on here":
> 
> ...



You can quantify self confidence in black and white terms, but in my experience that's just not how the world is. Does someone willing to model their body have the same level of self confidence as someone who is still a proud, strong person but wouldn't do that? I doubt it. But does that mean either one of them is 100% without self confidence? I don't think so. Now obviously there's different levels and permutations of this, and as I pointed out in my original post, one's body is just one part of the entire thing. Still, saying "you have it or you don't" is just overly simplifying things, imo.

I took offense to what you said because it felt attacking. It was guised underneath another question and calm language but I read something that felt, to me, mean spirited. I answered your first question easily, because it's a matter of opinion and I stated mine. Then I addressed what you said in the second half of your post.

Human beings are imperfect, that much is true. There's trolls and jerks and people that lack any social graces no matter where you go. The fact that some exist here shouldn't surprise anyone. However the tone you took and still seem to be taking is against "some relationships going on here" at dimensions. Of course I can't know exactly what that means. I never said myself that I assumed you were dealing in sexuality either. I just know hostility when I see it. I'd like, however, for you to say what exactly it is that the community is "whitewashing" or tip-toeing around.

A little aside : If you don't like the idea that women are doing things that don't make them personally happy in relationships .. well I can understand that. But that is SO much of a bigger issue than Dimensions. This goes on in the world and has been going on in the world for most of our history as humans. Does that make it alright? Hell no. Just don't make it seem like it's something that only happens here.

It's great that you have an opinion on these things. Everyone should. In a perfect world no one does anything they feel strongly about not doing. Period. The best we as people can ask for is that we maintain our self respect and make sure everything balances out. That doesn't mean we can't leave our comfort zone at times, because trying new things, in general, is what makes life interesting. 

You mistook my comment about being high and mighty because your interpretation is more relevant to your argument. I said that because it seems to be that all too often people take open, blatant (though vaguely masked .. I should say blatant to anyone reading between the lines) shots at anything not related to Hyde Park or the size acceptance regions of this forum. It seems to have become very accepted. It had nothing to do with your self confidence, nor the self confidence or happiness of other women. Sorry, but no.

If you really want to know, this is how I interpreted the second half of your first post. First you vilified men (here, and in general I suppose) by making some assumptions about how we see women. There are men like that. There are women like that. That's life, and I could understand your questions there. However you then took an shot at a large portion of women, stating that essentially any girl who engages in "these kind of relationships" (mysterious eh?) does not have, in your words, "real self confidence." I took offense to this as an insult not only to these girls, but to the men who you appear to assume coerce them into being toys for our wanton sexual cravings. Now, I can't confront your questions further unless you define in more solid terms exactly the kind of relationships you mean.

I answered your question in my first post and brought up questions of my own regarding the second half of yours. Sorry if you found this challenging.


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## wrestlingguy (Feb 4, 2008)

mfdoom said:


> If you really want to know, this is how I interpreted the second half of your first post. First you vilified men (here, and in general I suppose) by making some assumptions about how we see women. There are men like that. There are women like that. That's life, and I could understand your questions there. However you then took an shot at a large portion of women, stating that essentially any girl who engages in "these kind of relationships" (mysterious eh?) does not have, in your words, "real self confidence." I took offense to this as an insult not only to these girls, but to the men who you appear to assume coerce them into being toys for our wanton sexual cravings. Now, I can't confront your questions further unless you define in more solid terms exactly the kind of relationships you mean.
> 
> I answered your question in my first post and brought up questions of my own regarding the second half of yours. Sorry if you found this challenging.



Doom, I'd like to take on your points. I've been a man for a long time, and I didn't resemble the remarks made by SuperO, nor did I think it vilified men in general. I think that many men, however, resemble that remark, and they see women in a completely different way than I do. I've been married almost 6 years. I've never cheated, never joined a paysite, or anything that would degrade what makes my marriage special. Here's the funny thing, though.....I never joined a paysite or tried to pick up a stray fat girl for sex even BEFORE I met Carla. I don't know you well enough, Doom, to say that you resemble the remark made by SuperO. I think she was pointing out a stereotype that some women who have confidence & morals, will profile as a type to avoid.

Now, with regard to the girls who put themselves in the relationships with these vilified guys, it is very true that some girls like sex just for sex sake, and for those girls who don't care (or are they just overconfident), that is fine, too.

What you call an insult, though, I think goes way below what we're talking about here. Over the past 10 years, I've spent countless hours, and had way too many conversations with ladies, both paysite and non paysite girls, and I have to say that I don't think she's insulting anyone. See, many of the girls act confident, but.......when their head goes down on the pillow at night, and it's just them & God (for those who believe), they still pray for that Prince Charming to come along & take them away from all this, and wish they hadn't done what they did to try to make a relationship with someone who deep down doesn't give a shit about anything but the sex. I can't speak for the OP, but I have a feeling that this is exactly the type of relationship that she means.

Doom, I know we agree on many topics, but I think you're dead wrong here. Girls spend years trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole (the unsatisfying releationship), and do it over and over again........why? Simple, my friend. No confidence.................and I didn't find you comments challenging at all. Good points, but not challenging.


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## southernfa (Feb 4, 2008)

Ernest Nagel said:


> For a man, finding a woman who has found the river is as good or better than finding the river itself. I was trying to make sense here, I promise.  Back to work.



That's very romantic, Grasshopper!  But I'm not sure about it, perhaps if any of us "go down to the river" through our partner, then that is a good thing. But personally, I would be wary of mistaking the partner for the river (one of them's wetter than the other...).

Meanwhile, if we are to quote, this one seems apt;

"Being is desirable because it is identical with Beauty, and Beauty is loved because it is Being. We ourselves possess Beauty when we are true to our own being; ugliness is in going over to another order; knowing ourselves, we are beautiful; in self-ignorance, we are ugly.
- Plotinus
(204 - 270)
Neoplatonic philosopher and mystic"


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 4, 2008)

southernfa said:


> Meanwhile, if we are to quote, this one seems apt;
> 
> "Being is desirable because it is identical with Beauty, and Beauty is loved because it is Being. We ourselves possess Beauty when we are true to our own being; ugliness is in going over to another order; knowing ourselves, we are beautiful; in self-ignorance, we are ugly.
> - Plotinus
> ...



Wow, can we get an AMEN and a HALLELEUJAH!! Grok dem Greeks! A bit long for a sig but I'm totally digging that, SFA! Calls for a TOGA PARTY imo.

And just incidentally, I have NEVER mistaken a woman for the river. I just piss them OFF a lot. :doh:


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 4, 2008)

wrestlingguy said:


> Doom, I'd like to take on your points. I've been a man for a long time, and I didn't resemble the remarks made by SuperO, nor did I think it vilified men in general. I think that many men, however, resemble that remark, and they see women in a completely different way than I do. I've been married almost 6 years. I've never cheated, never joined a paysite, or anything that would degrade what makes my marriage special. Here's the funny thing, though.....I never joined a paysite or tried to pick up a stray fat girl for sex even BEFORE I met Carla. I don't know you well enough, Doom, to say that you resemble the remark made by SuperO. I think she was pointing out a stereotype that some women who have confidence & morals, will profile as a type to avoid.
> 
> Now, with regard to the girls who put themselves in the relationships with these vilified guys, it is very true that some girls like sex just for sex sake, and for those girls who don't care (or are they just overconfident), that is fine, too.
> 
> ...



Just wanna mega-ditto my Kiwi Bro! VERY well said. My rep well is dry but you're first in line when the drought ends, SFA. :bow:


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

wrestlingguy said:


> Doom, I'd like to take on your points. I've been a man for a long time, and I didn't resemble the remarks made by SuperO, nor did I think it vilified men in general. I think that many men, however, resemble that remark, and they see women in a completely different way than I do. I've been married almost 6 years. I've never cheated, never joined a paysite, or anything that would degrade what makes my marriage special. Here's the funny thing, though.....I never joined a paysite or tried to pick up a stray fat girl for sex even BEFORE I met Carla. I don't know you well enough, Doom, to say that you resemble the remark made by SuperO. I think she was pointing out a stereotype that some women who have confidence & morals, will profile as a type to avoid.



I understand what you mean. In fact, the reason I responded the way I did was because I interpreted it as a widespread accusation, a pigeonholing of sorts against dudes on certain parts of this board. I agree that there are men like what she described, obviously - just that dims shouldn't be .. made an example of, let's say. I've also never cheated or yes, joined a paysite (though your stance on it confuses me. you seem to be anti-paysite patrons?). I don't really have casual sex or troll bars looking for a hookup. I believe in decency and to some effect, chivalry. I'm just quick to defend my sex, indeed sometimes I wonder why.

If my interpretation was incorrect, so be it. However I'm not going to stop defending myself and fellow male patrons of this website from what I felt to be an accusation. That's just how I am. :]



> Now, with regard to the girls who put themselves in the relationships with these vilified guys, it is very true that some girls like sex just for sex sake, and for those girls who don't care (or are they just overconfident), that is fine, too.
> 
> What you call an insult, though, I think goes way below what we're talking about here. Over the past 10 years, I've spent countless hours, and had way too many conversations with ladies, both paysite and non paysite girls, and I have to say that I don't think she's insulting anyone. See, many of the girls act confident, but.......when their head goes down on the pillow at night, and it's just them & God (for those who believe), they still pray for that Prince Charming to come along & take them away from all this, and wish they hadn't done what they did to try to make a relationship with someone who deep down doesn't give a shit about anything but the sex. I can't speak for the OP, but I have a feeling that this is exactly the type of relationship that she means.



You make some strong points. However, who is to say that just because sex is important to a certain man, he's a soulless bastard who cares about nothing else? I myself have abstained from sex for long portions of a relationship, in part for the sake of harvesting a deeper mental connection. I learned early on that sexual activity can skew the entire course of a relationship. Sex is still important to me however. I dated a skinny girl for a long time and though we had a near-flawless emotional and mental connection, the utter lack of a functional sex life, the pain and discomfort that caused both of us mentally, lead to her breaking up with me. Every time I failed in a sexual setting due to matters beyond my control, I was crushed, depressed, and just wished everything could be easier. 

There's a difference between a user, a man who wants only carnal pleasures and will lie / do anything for it, and someone who believes strongly in relationships and emotional values, but still wants physical satisfaction. I suppose that's a point I'm trying to make.



> Doom, I know we agree on many topics, but I think you're dead wrong here. Girls spend years trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole (the unsatisfying releationship), and do it over and over again........why? Simple, my friend. No confidence.................and I didn't find you comments challenging at all. Good points, but not challenging.



I respect your opinion because you came out and said it. I'm not saying people don't make mistakes. You're right, a lack of confidence leads to pushing oneself beyond their boundaries, lying to oneself just to make things work. I've seen it myself. I don't believe that ONLY poor self confidence leads to this, though.

Also; I wasn't really addressing the challenging nature of my comments, I was addressing her response to my post.


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## The Orange Mage (Feb 4, 2008)

Jes said:


> There's also a similar question going in the opposite direction. I have, for a long time now, wondered about the slippage I see between women who have self confidence, find themselves attractive (save for a bad day now and then), believe others can find them attractive, and all the stories I hear from men who talk about self-hating fat women.
> 
> Don't get me wrong: I'm very sure there are self-hating fat women, and a good number of them, at that.
> 
> ...



Hey, this all sounds familiar...

I tried to make a similar argument a month or two ago in some other thread, but I couldn't find the exact wordings I was looking for. 

Basically, all I ask for in my partner is that she knows about my FA-ness, accepts it, and is willing to indulge it every now and then as long as I do the same for her and whatever she enjoys...physically. 

I mean, that's what any FA would want...a girl/woman with a soft, curvy body. One that isn't freaked out about the whole FA thing, one that likes her body, and definitely one that knows that she can drive a man bonkers with it.:shocked:

That is all.


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## NancyGirl74 (Feb 4, 2008)

I've seen a lot of self proclaimed confident women in this community. However, I don't always believe it. To me the confident woman is one who is not looking of any validation at all, whether from society, peers, or men. The self-confident BBW is one who says no to the random one night stand. Not because she's ashamed or embarrassed about her body but because she's too good to be anyone's random anything. She's the woman who won't say or do what the other's do or say because she thinks for herself. She's the woman who doesn't need to seek attention, it is given to her simply because she is herself and people notice. The confident woman is the one with power. Power to know what she wants and know how to get it. The power to have a man respect her and the power to have her peers admire her. Above all, the power to not need to flaunt her power but just to be. There are very few women like this. Many women claim to be confident to gain attention. Many behave certain ways because they think that is what confident looks like. They don't know or realize that confident doesn't need to claim anything, confident doesn't have to behave a certain way, confident just simply _is_.


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## ashmamma84 (Feb 4, 2008)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I've seen a lot of self proclaimed confident women in this community. However, I don't always believe it. To me the confident woman is one who is not looking of any validation at all, whether from society, peers, or men. The self-confident BBW is one who says no to the random one night stand. Not because she's ashamed or embarrassed about her body but because she's too good to be anyone's random anything. She's the woman who won't say or do what the other's do or say because she thinks for herself. She's the woman who doesn't need to seek attention, it is given to her simply because she is herself and people notice. The confident woman is the one with power. Power to know what she wants and know how to get it. The power to have a man respect her and the power to have her peers admire her. Above all, the power to not need to flaunt her power but just to be. There are very few women like this. Many women claim to be confident to gain attention. Maybe behave certain ways because they think that is what confident looks like. They don't know or realize that confident doesn't need to claim anything, confident doesn't have to a behave certain way, confident just simply is.



Word.for.word. Absolutely!

Too bad I have to spread it around...pphhfffttt.


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## Jes (Feb 4, 2008)

The Orange Mage said:


> I mean, that's what any FA would want...



you sure 'bout that? 

anyway, I'm driving everyone bonkers with my body, today.

But, i thank everyone who read my comment and understood it. I'm so glad I finally had the chance to put that out there in a non-confrontational way. I wish I could hand this over to a whole bunch of guys with whom I've interacted, so that they could read it in the privacy of their own homes before they start telling me I hate myself. It would save so much time. And I'm not being flippant--i mean it! It would save everyone time.


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I've seen a lot of self proclaimed confident women in this community. However, I don't always believe it. To me the confident woman is one who is not looking of any validation at all, whether from society, peers, or men. The self-confident BBW is one who says no to the random one night stand. Not because she's ashamed or embarrassed about her body but because she's too good to be anyone's random anything. She's the woman who won't say or do what the other's do or say because she thinks for herself. She's the woman who doesn't need to seek attention, it is given to her simply because she is herself and people notice. The confident woman is the one with power. Power to know what she wants and know how to get it. The power to have a man respect her and the power to have her peers admire her. Above all, the power to not need to flaunt her power but just to be. There are very few women like this. Many women claim to be confident to gain attention. Many behave certain ways because they think that is what confident looks like. They don't know or realize that confident doesn't need to claim anything, confident doesn't have to behave a certain way, confident just simply _is_.



I know what you mean, and I like your description of self confidence. I think it can apply to men as well, despite the social stigmata of overconfident males. However, does this mean that you think girls that model, or even just act showy in pictures, are lacking true self confidence, only seeking affirmation? Paysite girls? Does this apply to "normal" models as well? Supermodels and the like, I mean. Just wondering.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 4, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Super
> 
> I can't rep you until I rep someone else
> 
> William




It wouldn't let me rep her either :doh:


Good question, Felecia


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## mossystate (Feb 4, 2008)

Ash....I got her for you..me...

I loved that post. I loved it because it was not attacking what any one..or group..' does '..it seemed to me, more of a commenting that we all ( and yes, males or females ) have a more ' elegant ' place that resides in all of us...elegant not meaning something contrived. It can look many different ways, as long as one truly knows...why... and who they are, or strive to be.

Anyhoo..great post.


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## NancyGirl74 (Feb 4, 2008)

mfdoom said:


> I know what you mean, and I like your description of self confidence. I think it can apply to men as well, despite the social stigmata of overconfident males. However, does this mean that you think girls that model, or even just act showy in pictures, are lacking true self confidence, only seeking affirmation? Paysite girls? Does this apply to "normal" models as well? Supermodels and the like, I mean. Just wondering.




I didn't say confident couldn't be "showy"...I said it doesn't _*need*_ to be.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

mfdoom said:


> You can quantify self confidence in black and white terms, but in my experience that's just not how the world is. Does someone willing to model their body have the same level of self confidence as someone who is still a proud, strong person but wouldn't do that? I doubt it. But does that mean either one of them is 100% without self confidence? I don't think so. Now obviously there's different levels and permutations of this, and as I pointed out in my original post, one's body is just one part of the entire thing. Still, saying "you have it or you don't" is just overly simplifying things, imo.
> 
> I took offense to what you said because it felt attacking. It was guised underneath another question and calm language but I read something that felt, to me, mean spirited. I answered your first question easily, because it's a matter of opinion and I stated mine. Then I addressed what you said in the second half of your post.
> 
> ...



we can agree to disagree. maybe i should clarify more fully. the kind of relationships i had seen described on dims were where some FAs feel its acceptable to have a relationship based on conditions. in fact the question was inspired by a thread where some FAs described relationships they were in. its not just something i came up with because i'm paranoid and hate dims FAs. and i didn't mean to give anyone the idea that i think its only dims FAs who are that way. but, these are the FAs i have access to and who have the opportunity to respond to my question. so if i put a foot wrong i would be accountable to someone except nebulous FA who will never know what i wrote. 

i know there is a variety out there like a rainbow. from their posts i know that a lot of them struggle with the conflict. its easy to feel their angst. then there are other FAs who don't see a conflict at all. those are the people that i wanted to addresss because i really can't understand how they are able to reconcile the two. i don't understand whats so mean spirited about asking a direct question. and, i was able to do it without using any epithets or adhominems. i always try to qualify my words because i don't like painting all FAs with a broad brush.

yes we really do disagree about the definition of a confident woman. but if you are a woman and you are looking for a love relationship free of conditions and you accept something else that makes you totally miserable-- self confidence? um no. what's so complex about that? i mean, i'm not talking about a woman who is exploring, but one who already knows what she wants. a lot of us ladies are older and have experienced enough already to know what does it for us. so, yeah, to me a certain kind of confidence is black and white.

your response was an wonderful illustration of the kind of tiptoeing and white washing i feel is required sometimes around here. i find there are some FAs who talk a good game when it comes to a confident bbw but when he sees her in action he paints her as being hostile and manhating. how do you make that work? i can be confident as long as what i say doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities. hmmmm interesting. yes i agree that was rude but right now i feel a little bit rude. i must be overraught from my childish high and mightiness . debate can be stimulating. disagreement is good. take up the challenge, push the envelope. interesting how words come back to haunt you its great if your hackles rise occassionally its good for the blood.


as for hostility, join the club. there are some bbws who feel it is a hostile act when a guy makes its thier business to emphasize that he will leave her if she loses weight. then in the next breath he says that he loves her. when you look at it there might be something passive agressive in that. whats a woman supposed to do with that? where is she supposed to put it? and, why would an FA not have a problem reconciling his woman feeling that way if he really cares about her?


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## Arrhythmia (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i was thinking. one of the main things a lot of FAs mention that they are attracted to in a woman is confidence. i wonder how some of the FAs here feel conditional acceptance on their part figures in a woman's self confidence? i sometmes wonder if this self confidence thats often spoken of here is just a euphemism for a woman willing to show her body and let it be used as a toy? is it self confident when a woman says that its okay to throw the rest of her away if and when her body does not meet a requirement? a woman with real self confidence would probaby not ever accept some of the kinds of relationships i've seen described here, or have seen out and about in the community for that matter. so i've always wondered how some of the FAs have been able to reconcile things in their own mind.


Well, I feel I have to chime in here because I began a thread short while ago asking about the "friends with benefits" relationships. Although, these types of relationships are not exclusive to BBWs by any means, lack of confidence and not being comfortable with one's curves may be the reason why a person agrees to one -- grabbing what is presented rather than feeling they are worth going for a committed relationship which is what they wanted in the first place. They? Change that to* me*.

I will be one to stand up and say I do not have self-confidence and not all the speech/debate awards I've won, singing trophies and acting nominations in the world has changed that and I'll be turning 44 soon. It is difficult for a man to talk me out of my clothes. For as long as I have been this size, I figured there was NO WAY a man would want to see all these rolls of flesh. Hell, before I joined here in April 2007, I'd never heard of an FA and was floored to find out there are men who actually desire a body such as mine.

The thing is Ladies and Gents....those of us who lack this self-confidence desired to be loved, as well. I say that because I've been actively involved with a few online dating services over the past few weeks. All I see is, "self confidence turns me on" or "self-confidence is a must!" So, what do I do? Skip those ads? Why is it that we take a person's age and then determine where they should be in life? I'm freakin' 40+ and I still struggle with accepting myself. Does that make me bad or less desirable? I'm not looking for someone to complete me or fill those so called holes in my life. I just wanna be loved.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

sweetie your already wonderful and complete. you just don't know it yet.

and no, there is nothing wrong with the way you feel. you have the right to your feelings. but maybe one step at a time you can learn to love your life more and believe!


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> we can agree to disagree. maybe i should clarify more fully. the kind of relationships i had seen described on dims were where some FAs feel its acceptable to have a relationship based on conditions. in fact the question was inspired by a thread where some FAs described relationships they were in. its not just something i came up with because i'm paranoid and hate dims FAs. and i didn't mean to give anyone the idea that i think its only dims FAs who are that way. but, these are the FAs i have access to and who have the opportunity to respond to my question. so if i put a foot wrong i would be accountable to someone except nebulous FA who will never know what i wrote.



If that's the case, honestly, we just had a slight misunderstanding. I never assumed you were paranoid per se, I've just sensed a lot of hostility about this issue lately. Perhaps I'm the one that's paranoid, simply _because_ of that hostility. You surely understand how people could read into your post that way don't you?



> i know there is a variety out there like a rainbow. from their posts i know that a lot of them struggle with the conflict. its easy to feel their angst. then there are other FAs who don't see a conflict at all. those are the people that i wanted to addresss because i really can't understand how they are able to reconcile the two. i don't understand whats so mean spirited about asking a direct question. and, i was able to do it without using any epithets or adhominems. i always try to qualify my words because i don't like painting all FAs with a broad brush.



If you say so. I'm glad you've made it clear that you aren't attacking all FAs, if you hadn't been vague and "tip-toeing" by saying things like "these kind of relationships", I probably would have understood from the beginning.



> yes we really do disagree about the definition of a confident woman. but if you are a woman and you are looking for a love relationship free of conditions and you accept something else that makes you totally miserable-- self confidence? um no. what's so complex about that? i mean, i'm not talking about a woman who is exploring, but one who already knows what she wants. a lot of us ladies are older and have experienced enough already to know what does it for us. so, yeah, to me a certain kind of confidence is black and white.



You're seem really "one or the other" about everything. Very little grey area. Are you familiar with compromise? Give and take? It seems to me like a functioning part of relationships. Obviously, don't do something you hate and makes you miserable, that's sort of a warning flag that the relationship needs to end, for either person. Relationships don't exist without compromise. Every man and every woman need certain things, and don't need others, but grey area exists. Just my two cents.



> your response was an wonderful illustration of the kind of tiptoeing and white washing i feel is required sometimes around here. i find there are some FAs who talk a good game when it comes to a confident bbw but when he sees her in action he paints her as being hostile and manhating. how do you make that work? i can be confident as long as what i say doesn't offend your delicate sensibilities. hmmmm interesting. yes i agree that was rude but right now i feel a little bit rude. i must be overraught from my childish high and mightiness . debate can be stimulating. disagreement is good. take up the challenge, push the envelope. interesting how words come back to haunt you its great if your hackles rise occassionally its good for the blood.



There's a difference between being confident and being hubristic. 



> as for hostility, join the club. there are some bbws who feel it is a hostile act when a guy makes its thier business to emphasize that he will leave her if she loses weight. then in the next breath he says that he loves her. when you look at it there might be something passive agressive in that. whats a woman supposed to do with that? where is she supposed to put it? and, why would an FA not have a problem reconciling his woman feeling that way if he really cares about her?



Do you assume all FA's are that way? I wouldn't do that. Can't speak for other fellas. Do "normal" guys state to skinny girls when they date them that they would leave them if they got fat? Not all of them, I would think (hope?). Not most of them, I assume. The same goes for FAs, at least in my opinion. Maybe my opinion is skewed because I've dealt with a _lot_ of really good guys in my time on Dimensions.


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## superodalisque (Feb 4, 2008)

mfdoom said:


> There's a difference between being confident and being hubristic.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you assume all FA's are that way? I wouldn't do that. Can't speak for other fellas. Do "normal" guys state to skinny girls when they date them that they would leave them if they got fat? Not all of them, I would think (hope?). Not most of them, I assume. The same goes for FAs, at least in my opinion. Maybe my opinion is skewed because I've dealt with a _lot_ of really good guys in my time on Dimensions.



is there? i always enjoy hubris myself

i know why you'd assume that most aren't that way. you are a guy and FA competition. your base is much smaller than a bbw's. or maybe its just that those are the ones who hit on us the most. basically i try to take each person as they come when i'm dealing with them in person. on that level its everything to do with how someone treats me. but on a macro level we all make assumptions based on the majority of our experiences.


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> is there? i always enjoy hubris myself
> 
> i know why you'd assume that most aren't that way. you are a guy and FA competition. your base is much smaller than a bbw's. or maybe its just that those are the ones who hit on us the most. basically i try to take each person as they come when i'm dealing with them in person. on that level its everything to do with how someone treats me. but on a macro level we all make assumptions based on the majority of our experiences.



Fair enough. Stimulating debate!


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## butch (Feb 4, 2008)

Maybe this is a boring tangent, but, to amuse myself, I'll go with it:

why must self-confidence be tied so strongly to the body/sex? Can one be self confident and not have it connect in some way to bodies/relationships/sex?

I mean, is the only reason a nun might be self-confident is because she's a bride of christ? 

I think as long as self-confidence has some strong connection to the external (the body's appearance, sex, romantic love), then it is always conditional, and subject to change. And with that, how can we judge anything someone does in the name of trying to claim some shred of self-confidence, no matter how misguided or damaging that action might be?


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## furious styles (Feb 4, 2008)

butch said:


> Maybe this is a boring tangent, but, to amuse myself, I'll go with it:
> 
> why must self-confidence be tied so strongly to the body/sex? Can one be self confident and not have it connect in some way to bodies/relationships/sex?
> 
> ...



It shouldn't be, at least not so much. The problem is that as humans we judge with our first and most reliable sense - our eyes. It's the reason for so many terrible things, pretty much any negative "ism" that exists. We're a fundamentally flawed species, and it's by our own design. D:

To me, and others no doubt, the way a person carries themselves and acts, their spirit and inner strength, are crucial in "attraction." It's not the case however for many. It's this problem that ties self confidence so heavily into appearance. We've taught ourselves that to be confident, we must be attractive to others, then we've quantified attractiveness.


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## butch (Feb 4, 2008)

mfdoom said:


> It shouldn't be, at least not so much. The problem is that as humans we judge with our first and most reliable sense - our eyes. It's the reason for so many terrible things, pretty much any negative "ism" that exists. We're a fundamentally flawed species, and it's by our own design. D:
> 
> To me, and others no doubt, the way a person carries themselves and acts, their spirit and inner strength, are crucial in "attraction." It's not the case however for many. It's this problem that ties self confidence so heavily into appearance. We've taught ourselves that to be confident, we must be attractive, to others then we've quantified attractiveness.



Good points, thanks, mfdoom. I think we're in a weird place as a society, where the body seems hyper important as a locus of our 'value,' and part of me wonders if this is because we're in the last stages of a non-mediated, non cyborg, if you will, type of existence.

Really, the full service robots and the cloned ground beef and all the rest aren't that far off, and so we cling really tightly to our flesh and blood because it feels like its all we have total mastery over, trying to perfect a form that can never be perfect in order to stave off the eventual domination of the replicants.

Another odd tangent. Enjoy, or scoff, fellow Dims readers. My pleasure either way.


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 4, 2008)

butch said:


> Maybe this is a boring tangent, but, to amuse myself, I'll go with it:
> 
> why must self-confidence be tied so strongly to the body/sex? Can one be self confident and not have it connect in some way to bodies/relationships/sex?
> 
> ...



Julia, please kindly note my prior points on this aspect (as well as SFA's brilliant Plotinus quote). Real self-confidence is _inherently _independent of external aesthetics. "I could be wrong now, but I don't think so?" ~ Monk :bow:


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## ripley (Feb 4, 2008)

I think the way confidence manifests itself can be different in the way FAs view it and BBW view it.

I know my body is sexy to a lot of FAs...I'm quite confident of that fact. I would wear sexy clothes for him, and be completely confident that I'd drive him crazy. Does it mean that I'm not confident that I would not wear those same clothes to run errands? 

The other day I was pm'd by a man in chat. He asked, almost first thing, what I weigh. Now, I am capricious in who I will tell my numbers to. Sometimes I will tell it right out loud in open chat, sometimes if a man pm's me I refuse to tell it. It's my prerogative. Now, I didn't like the way he asked...so I told him I was not going to tell him the number, that he could see my pic on the sidebar and that was good enough. He replied (and repeated it many times) that I should "not be shy of the number." I'm not shy of it. I live with it every day, accept it, and it's only one very small part of the whole me (despite it being a big number). 

I'm tired of some FAs acting like if we don't live our lives in a way that sexually titillates them that we are "not confident" or ashamed of our size. That's manipulation, plain and simple, and I think it shows MORE confidence to say "nope, nuh uh, not falling for that, sorry" than it does to say..."okay, here is my body, my numbers, use it for your gratification."

Not every BBW who isn't out flaunting their body or wearing skimpy clothes has self-esteem issues or isn't confident. Some have simply made a choice about what is right for them, and quietly go about living their lives in a way that makes sense to them. Don't make judgments about someone's confidence or lack thereof based on external things. The quiet, subdued BBW might have a rock-solid sense of self and of self-worth. There is a lot of pressure around these parts for BBW to show pics, the sexier the better. Which is more confident, the one who gives in to pressure and does it, or the one who says "nope, not for me"?


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## Jes (Feb 6, 2008)

butch said:


> Really, the full service robots and the cloned ground beef and all the rest aren't that far off, and so we cling really tightly to our flesh and blood because it feels like its all we have total mastery over, trying to perfect a form that can never be perfect in order to stave off the eventual domination of the replicants.
> 
> .



like that article about the body as the new Wild wild west.

I think there is a bodily connection with self esteem. But more in 1 direction that the other. if you are self confident, then you're accepting of your body, whatever it is. Not always the same thing on the way back.  I think, if you're self confident in some areas, and not those involving the body at all, then I think you still ahve to specify the ways (or areas) in which you have self confidence. And by the time you've selected those areas from the buffet that is you, you may have put too many holes in the tablecloth. If that makes sense.


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## liz (di-va) (Feb 6, 2008)

I agree self-confidence is something of an absolute, a quality that exists at the core. But for what it's worth I don't think other people are all (in turn) absolutely able to see it for what it is. In some circs, yes, but I think it depends on the viewer. An insecure person isn't the best judge of what's self-confidence vs something else (indifference, apathy, anger, lack of caring), although I honestly think real self-confidence doesn't offend, doesn't need to put others down to make a point. Nor is it a loud nervous thing that talks about itself too much. For that reason alone in this loud, screeching, attention-getting world we live in (not to mention the internet), I just don't trust people to always see self-confidence for what it is.

(Esp--out of this Dims context--about fatties! People are so shocked sometimes to see a fat woman having a boyfriend, wearing a fabulous outfit, eating without shame in public--whatever--that they don't even know how to categorize it, much less understand that this person is confident, not a freak. Although if they slowed down and got to know the person...they'd probably know.)

As far as writing on a webboard, livin out here together on the net...I think we can see evidence of it sometimes, sometimes quite solid evidence, but that we are basically as a disadvantage for judging this quality in this medium. In this context self-confidence usually gets *stated, not shown*, but self-confidence is more accurately visible in action, and over the course of time.

Therefore in this context, and with certain mindsets, yes--a defensive, overly cheerleadery mentality can get taken for self-confidence, sometimes even be *required* to pass as self-confidence for people on the other end who don't get it. Which is tedious and wearing. To me it's the difference between someone who knows they are 'allowed' to eat chocolate cake whenever and however they want to in this world as a fat person and *does* so if they are in the mood, with solid gusto and nondefensiveness, in the middle of a busy restaurant by themselves if that's where it's happening, but (this is the point) if they are dying for a delicious salad--they do the same thing. Or a drink. Or nothing. Somebody who really knows what they like/want, and quietly advocates for it, and doesn't have to do things for public consumption to make a point* (like eating cake--or--alternately--eating salad,when you're not in the mood). Some people only get the gesture if they see you eating the cake.

Nor to my mind does the idea of perfection or never having a crack in the armor have anything to do with self-confidence. If you're self-confident, you know that everyone makes mistakes. If you're self-confident, then you don't feel you *have* to be perfect to be okay. It's not about being inflexible, or always knowing exactly what's right.

Men who are real, solid individuals, as well as FAs, understand all this, right? They know that if you're wrestling with a dress that suddenly doesn't fit right on a crappy day when yer all sweaty and grouchy and frustrated that it doesn't mean you hate your body, you're just having a bad day. Self-confidence recognizes self-confidence. A solid dude would recognize that as a bad day, and be able to identify a "funny" low-grade self-deprecating comment that sounds okay but actually exists as part of a constant blizzard of negative self-talk as a problem.

On some level self-confidence is just about putting your money where your mouth is, and I don't know that the net is so good for seeing that! Sometimes.

* A little bravado is part of the learning curve in life (it's not like self-confidence isn't learned, if a core feeling). Especially with "coming out" as a fat person, there are always periods of giddy overstatement and craziness, and a big bag of "who-care"s are necessary for getting through life anyhow. And it's not a pre-req, but I think we should feel like we're allowed to yell and show our tits and play loud punk music and challenge our teachers and make noise in this life...it's not like it's always about quiet. I am a big fan of cheerleading ourselves and others to *get* to the point where we can choose whatever best expresses ourselves, to the point where we don't need so much cheerleading. I think the forces of Ebil out there are formidable, whether we're talkin about institutionalized fatphobia, horribly well-intentioned parents that end up crippling their kids' self-esteem, bitchy friends, or whatever. The main function of Dims at times *is* that kind of constructive cheerleading. And honest naked talk about vulnerabilities and histories and longing. And everyone's at a different stage. So self-confidence...not that simple to judge here, in my opinion. To go back to my original point.


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## NoWayOut (Feb 6, 2008)

The way I look at it is, it's not my body. Therefore, it's not my decision how anyone I date is supposed to feel about her own body parts. The confidence that I look for is a woman who believes in herself, someone for whom compliments are a pleasant boost of positive emotion rather than an absolute necessity. I want someone who will actually TAKE said compliments, someone who knows that being herself is enough for me if I'm already with her.

As for her physical body, I've stated my views in other posts. If a hypothetical girlfriend has a big belly that she isn't happy with, I'll help her get to a point where she's happy with it, as long as she's doing it for herself and nobody else. If she has a big belly that she loves, I'm going to end up loving it even more than I would have already. 

That's one of the biggest things for me: I can't love a girl who doesn't love herself. By the reverse, I am very attracted to a girl who does love herself with the right personality.


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## superodalisque (Feb 7, 2008)

butch said:


> Maybe this is a boring tangent, but, to amuse myself, I'll go with it:
> 
> why must self-confidence be tied so strongly to the body/sex? Can one be self confident and not have it connect in some way to bodies/relationships/sex?
> 
> ...




i hear you!!!! thank you for writing this. i think your absolutely right about how a lot of people feel their confidence is maybe only tied to body image, having a love or sexual relationship etc... i think it can be very shallow but not necessarily. at its worse looking at yourself through the eyes of another and not being able to appreciate yourself is a huge problem. 

having said that i do believe that living in your body is also a part of self confidence. when i was a girl, i used to think the total opposite--so i get you. i used to want to only live on a spiritual level and be appreciated and recognized for what i considered to be my humanity. but your body is a gift and its important not to miss out on that. its wonderful to have a fantastic spirit. to be self actualized within your self is magnificent! but its also nice when you can help other spirits look into you and recognize your spirit and treat it accordingly. because we are all living among people who are at a different points on the continuim and we might need to learn to speak a common language. i guess its what the buddhist call large boat versus small boat. that is, people make their way to enlightenment in different ways, some alone and some with a big group. either way you get there is fine, as long as you do. 

i also think your body is there to help express whats on the inside. thats just my personal opinion. i like to try and please with my looks because its nice when people know that you care about how they feel when they look at you--fat or no. you feel cared for when you take care of yourself and so do they. people can feel when you want to give them a moment of pleasure. they really appreciate that. life can sometimes feel ugly brutish and short. i find that it creates a kind of energy that i like. 

also in a relationship your physical existence is important in helping you to express what you hold inside of your spirit for someone else. it is in the way you move touch etc... your body shouldn't be your enemy. its your brush full of paint, its a tool, its a pen. you can create a lot of good things with your body. and, i think your right that that kind of integration of spirit and body is much different from what we often get a chance to examine here. when someone is operating on a very low level i think its really easy to put soley physical and animalistic conditions on another person. i think it means that someone might not be ready to, or never intended on really knowing or caring for a person. at least thats what i have thought. but i decided to try and keep an open mind and ask if someone was able to explain how that was not so. i'm still waiting for someone to really explain how they can do that but no one has yet.

you make a wonderful point about how outward looking a lot of this is. i do think that looking outward obsessively and shallowly makes it very difficult to love yourself and have true confidence. its takes a while for people to believe that the world will never 100% aprove of you, even if you were "perfect". but also when you look outward in the right way you can be a healer for people if you come to it with the right spirit. i think what it comes down to is trying to judge the intention of other people. its important to know that you can't put yourself at the disposal of others whose intentions might not be in your best interest. thats a harsh environment for self esteem to grow in.


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## Jes (Feb 7, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i like to try and please with my looks because its nice when people know that you care about how they feel when they look at you--fat or no. you feel cared for when you take care of yourself and so do they. people can feel when you want to give them a moment of pleasure. they really appreciate that. life can sometimes feel ugly brutish and short. i find that it creates a kind of energy that i like.
> 
> .



this is right on the money, Super. I really like the way you've phrased it. I like looking good and smelling good and feeling good, too.


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## butch (Feb 7, 2008)

Superodalisque, thank you for your response, it really gets my noggin tunring. This has been quite the interesting debate, so thanks, too, for starting the thread.


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## southernfa (Feb 7, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> its takes a while for people to believe that the world will never 100% aprove of you, even if you were "perfect". but also when you look outward in the right way you can be a healer for people if you come to it with the right spirit. i think what it comes down to is trying to judge the intention of other people. its important to know that you can't put yourself at the disposal of others whose intentions might not be in your best interest. thats a harsh environment for self esteem to grow in.



Trimmed most of it for conciseness and I can't rep you but I do have to say you write beautiful things sometimes. 

Personally, it was an epiphany for me when I came to realise years ago that I subconsciously wanted approval or validation from everyone, even people I didn't particularly respect or even like. That stopped it.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 7, 2008)

Arrhythmia said:


> The thing is Ladies and Gents....those of us who lack this self-confidence desired to be loved, as well.



Amen :bow:



Arrhythmia said:


> I say that because I've been actively involved with a few online dating services over the past few weeks. All I see is, "self confidence turns me on" or "self-confidence is a must!"



I prefer that over "Must be between 5'4" to 5'6" tall, weigh between 110 and 125 lbs, have ________ color hair. Must be a homebody and have no kids or substantial requirements from a man. Do all the cooking, cleaning, and pay half or more of the bills and never complain about anything- even if I'm gone most of the time and attempt to pursue other women while you remain exclusive to me." They might not say that outright but you get their meaning....

I loved the one ad that I saw on a BBW dating site going on about how successful he was and much money he made. He outright said he was looking for a certain shaped woman of a certain weight. It was really no better than what you see anywhere else. 

I wonder if I should put an add out claiming to be -X- shape, -x- weight, no children, sound like a really submissive loser with no opinions or life desires other than hooking up with a man....yet claim that he MUST make -x- dollars a year and be willing to support me fully- what kind of response would I get?
Could be an interesting experiment...


Oh yeah I'm bored and evil- not always a good mix  

Does it show that I don't really like dating sites or personal ads, btw? :doh:



Arrhythmia said:


> I just wanna be loved.



Such a simple request- that seems so hard to find. Btw, the people that have hurt me most in this world have all told me they loved me :doh:
So let's put another few words on that request...how about TRULY loved as we deserve?


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## NoWayOut (Feb 8, 2008)

Arrhythmia said:


> I will be one to stand up and say I do not have self-confidence and not all the speech/debate awards I've won, singing trophies and acting nominations in the world has changed that and I'll be turning 44 soon. It is difficult for a man to talk me out of my clothes. For as long as I have been this size, I figured there was NO WAY a man would want to see all these rolls of flesh. Hell, before I joined here in April 2007, I'd never heard of an FA and was floored to find out there are men who actually desire a body such as mine.
> 
> The thing is Ladies and Gents....those of us who lack this self-confidence desired to be loved, as well. I say that because I've been actively involved with a few online dating services over the past few weeks. All I see is, "self confidence turns me on" or "self-confidence is a must!" So, what do I do? Skip those ads? Why is it that we take a person's age and then determine where they should be in life? I'm freakin' 40+ and I still struggle with accepting myself. Does that make me bad or less desirable? I'm not looking for someone to complete me or fill those so called holes in my life. I just wanna be loved.



All people deserve to be loved. But by the same token, all people have certain requirements that must be fulfilled to be able to love a person. For me, it's a love of oneself. It's pretty simple for me: how can I love a girl who does not love herself? That doesn't mean she has to love everything about herself. But she has to love herself overall. But that's just me. Everyone's desires are different.


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## Arrhythmia (Feb 8, 2008)

NoWayOut said:


> All people deserve to be loved. But by the same token, all people have certain requirements that must be fulfilled to be able to love a person. For me, it's a love of oneself. It's pretty simple for me: how can I love a girl who does not love herself? That doesn't mean she has to love everything about herself. But she has to love herself overall. But that's just me. Everyone's desires are different.


Question: Do you feel that the lack of self-confidence means lack of self-love?


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## NoWayOut (Feb 8, 2008)

Arrhythmia said:


> Question: Do you feel that the lack of self-confidence means lack of self-love?



It's a case-by-case basis, every woman is different. From my experience, I would say that I do, but it's entirely possible that it could just be women I've met who are like that.


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## Jes (Feb 8, 2008)

a good example of what i was talking about 100 messages ago  just happened the other day on another Dims board. Women discussing a question and someone popping in to put in a value judgement. And I thought: I wonder if this popper-inner would say, based on his likes and wants and desires, that those of us posting didn't like ourselves, becasue we didn't want to do what was sexy to him. I really have this strong gut feeling that that's what's happening a lot of time, which is why there seems to be this question that persists.


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## NoWayOut (Feb 8, 2008)

Jes said:


> a good example of what i was talking about 100 messages ago  just happened the other day on another Dims board. Women discussing a question and someone popping in to put in a value judgement. And I thought: I wonder if this popper-inner would say, based on his likes and wants and desires, that those of us posting didn't like ourselves, becasue we didn't want to do what was sexy to him. I really have this strong gut feeling that that's what's happening a lot of time, which is why there seems to be this question that persists.



Are you referring to me in this question? If so, no, it would have absolutely nothing to do with that. First, I don't know any of you outside of this board, so there would be no way to judge based on that. 

Second, I get into relationships because of what is inside, not on what happens physically. For example, even though the first thing I told my last girlfriend explicitly that there would be absolutely no sex unless this relationship became marriage, the physical portion of our relationship was very enjoyable. All I wanted was for her to be herself, which she did well in that aspect.

We broke up because emotionally, she was a train wreck. She was totally insecure and desperate, and instead of dealing with what bothered her, she always wanted to run from her problems. Basically, from her emotions, I could see that she didn't love herself. That was it for me.

The physical portion of a relationship is a partnership just like any other situation. If one of the two doesn't want to do something that the other does, that's fine, it's not supposed to be one person's wishes dominating the other's.


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## Jes (Feb 8, 2008)

NoWayOut said:


> Are you referring to me in this question?



No. And i'm sorry, but I don't know who you are, so I'm not referring to anything. My example was much shorter and simpler, but not unique.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 8, 2008)

Jes said:


> a good example of what i was talking about 100 messages ago  just happened the other day on another Dims board. Women discussing a question and someone popping in to put in a value judgement. And I thought: I wonder if this popper-inner would say, based on his likes and wants and desires, that those of us posting didn't like ourselves, becasue we didn't want to do what was sexy to him. I really have this strong gut feeling that that's what's happening a lot of time, which is why there seems to be this question that persists.




It does seem to me that some men do seem really tied up within their own sexualities. A lot of their perceptions seem to be filtered through their sexual needs/wants. The realization that anyone could perceive things differently doesn't seem to occur to them. 
In short, I'm agreeing :bow:


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## Jes (Feb 8, 2008)

thank you, gef!

i think we can only ever really see things through our own frames of reference but wanting to, say, buy a shirt long enough so that your lower belly roll doesn't flop out underneath it, doesn't mean you're ashamed of yourself, or you think yourself to be ugly, too fat, or anything else. Sure, you're covering up. That's what clothing does--it covers us. Maybe we like the look of it, maybe it's cold and we don't want our bellies freezing in the snow.


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## Arrhythmia (Feb 9, 2008)

Jes said:


> thank you, gef!
> 
> i think we can only ever really see things through our own frames of reference but wanting to, say, buy a shirt long enough so that your lower belly roll doesn't flop out underneath it, doesn't mean you're ashamed of yourself, or you think yourself to be ugly, too fat, or anything else. Sure, you're covering up. That's what clothing does--it covers us. Maybe we like the look of it, maybe it's cold and we don't want our bellies freezing in the snow.


Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jes! :bow::bow::bow:


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