# Afraid to diet??



## Paul (Sep 12, 2006)

I know that the thread "Fear of Gaining" has already been started. Now I wanted to look at this issue from a slightly different angle.

Many overweight persons are experts at dieting. They know how to loss weight. "Eat more, exercise more." 

Are you afraid to attempt to loose weight by going on one more diet? Are you afaind that if you loose 60 pounds in the end you will gain 90 pounds? Are you more comfortable staying at your present weight, even though you struggle at this weight, because you fear that if you attempt to loose weight you might end up weighing even more?


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## moonvine (Sep 12, 2006)

Paul said:


> I know that the thread "Fear of Gaining" has already been started. Now I wanted to look at this issue from a slightly different angle.
> 
> Many overweight persons are experts at dieting. They know how to loss weight. "Eat more, exercise more."
> 
> Are you afraid to attempt to loose weight by going on one more diet? Are you afaind that if you loose 60 pounds in the end you will gain 90 pounds? Are you more comfortable staying at your present weight, even though you struggle at this weight, because you fear that if you attempt to loose weight you might end up weighing even more?




I don't fear it - I KNOW it. 

Though I do not struggle at this weight, other than romantically, I certainly don't want to gain any more, which would be the end result of a diet.

Great topic! Thanks!


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## Carol W. (Sep 12, 2006)

Absolutely, positively no more weight-loss attempts in my future. I dieted, starting at age 11, for over 40 years. All it did for me was create eating disorders, severe depression, and massive weight gains. I did lose a significant amount of weight last year while dealing with a severe illness, but I sure as hell wasn't dieting. 

I consider diets, like keg parties and playing in sandboxes, a part of my distant past. And that's just fine with me. (Great thread, Paul!)


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 12, 2006)

Ok, well what about if you are minding your own business, living life as usual, but gaining weight? 
I can accept my size but the damn size keeps changing. I can not accept that. What then?


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## moonvine (Sep 12, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> Ok, well what about if you are minding your own business, living life as usual, but gaining weight?
> I can accept my size but the damn size keeps changing. I can not accept that. What then?




When I quit dieting I quit gaining weight. My weight has been stable for about 7 years now. 

How long has it been since you stopped dieting? It takes a while to stabilize, and every body is different.


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## NFA (Sep 12, 2006)

I know diet promoters would like to portray that fear as irrational, but this wouldn't be fear as much as a lesson learned. Diets don't work. 95-99% fail within just 5 years. 90% of failures result in MORE weight being put back on than was lost to begin with. If someone has learned that through experience, its a shame, but that isn't really fear. They know that weight gain is the probably result of trying to lose weight and they choose to avoid that inevitability. I'm sure that disappoints the feederists in the house, but that is no fear. Its knowledge. The best choice for a person's health is to live a healthy, moderate lifestyle without weight stigmatization. The weight may go up, down, or hold firm, but it will best serve your health. Weight loss carryings numerous health risks even when it works and even in that slim few (excuse the pun) there is no evidence that it improves health. It doesn't make you healthier and it doesn't even make you weigh less. Weight loss as "treatment" is one of the biggest shams around.


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 12, 2006)

moonvine said:


> When I quit dieting I quit gaining weight. My weight has been stable for about 7 years now.
> 
> How long has it been since you stopped dieting? It takes a while to stabilize, and every body is different.



I stopped using diet pills about 3 weeks ago. I haven't been on an acctual diet for about 2 years. I'm either on diet pills, eating what I want and losing weight or off diet pills, eating what I want and gaining weight.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 12, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> I stopped using diet pills about 3 weeks ago. I haven't been on an acctual diet for about 2 years. I'm either on diet pills, eating what I want and losing weight or off diet pills, eating what I want and gaining weight.



I pretty much steadily gained weight when I stopped dieting and ate what my body wanted. Even at a relatively low 1300-1400 calories a day, I gained weight, because my body was so messed up from dieting and fasting all those years. 

I think intuitive eating is great, for those who can do it. But it's tough, with all the external messages we get -- advertising, fast food everywhere -- because how do you know you're craving a cheeseburger because your body needs it? Or because you're inundated with the sights and smells of such yummy foods?


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## NFA (Sep 12, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> I stopped using diet pills about 3 weeks ago. I haven't been on an acctual diet for about 2 years. I'm either on diet pills, eating what I want and losing weight or off diet pills, eating what I want and gaining weight.



Look, if you've been on appetite suppressents, then you've been trying to lose weight whether you call it a diet or not. The reaction from your body is going to be the same. Your body may gain for a period of time as it stabalizes. The important thing right now is to work on developing a healthy relationship with food which doesn't catagorize things as good or bad. You need to learn to listen to your body about what it wants and needs. Believe me, you won't want to eat cake all day. But denying yourself foods like cake or candy can produce that kind of desire. It'll pass. Likewise, you'll probably find yourself craving "good for you" food that you may have become conditioned to think of as tasting bad. Fruits and veggies taste great, too. All of it can be a part of a healthy and moderate relationship with food. Doing that will ensure that you escape the disordered eating patterns encouraged by the weight loss mindset.


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## Brenda (Sep 12, 2006)

""Look, if you've been on appetite suppressents, then you've been trying to lose weight whether you call it a diet or not.""

Not necessarily so, she may have been trying to not gain. 

""The reaction from your body is going to be the same. Your body may gain for a period of time as it stabalizes.""

This is a lie. Many people with a tendency to be fat (because they are hungry more often) will NEVER stop gaining if they eat whenever they are hungry.



""The important thing right now is to work on developing a healthy relationship with food which doesn't catagorize things as good or bad. You need to learn to listen to your body about what it wants and needs. Believe me, you won't want to eat cake all day.""


Is not eating cake all day a weight loss diet of sorts? You are in fact suggesting a diet just like weight watchers. Moderation? If you are hungry all the time what is that anyway? 


""All of it can be a part of a healthy and moderate relationship with food""

Sure sounds like diet guru advice. Anyway you slice it you have to DIET to stop gaining or to lose. 







.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 12, 2006)

Brenda said:


> This is a lie. Many people with a tendency to be fat (because they are hungry more often) will NEVER stop gaining if they eat whenever they are hungry.




This is why I constantly have to watch myself. Not only do I come from a fat family, but I have PCOS w/Insulin Resistance and when not on my meds, like recently, I gained 50 pounds in 2.5 months...just from eating normal. Now that things have calmed down and Im back on my meds at watching myself...Im losing again. I do not feel the need to "diet" so to speak...but I feel the need to watch myself.

I envy those on this board who can claim they have a set point weight and preach it to every one as if it is applicable to all. It is not. I would be happy to be in the 400 range...and I am going to have to LOSE weight and OMG probably diet to get there. Does it scare me? no and yes.

No because I know I can do it....I just need to focus and get into a groove. This isnt my heaveist and I have maintained a loss....I can do it again.

Yes because I get frustrated with my body and its hormone issues that make me fat no matter what I eat. And also because I eat half as much as my friends and Im much much fatter. grrr. 

Ok Ill stop ranting, lol. Im feeling rather bitchy, lol.


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## Tracyarts (Sep 13, 2006)

I am so happy that I am one of that lucky 1-5% who has been able to keep a significant amount of weight off. While I know that it may not be permanant, I have been able to enjoy the recent past few years with a MUCH better quality of life. 

I am still very fat, and still want/need to lose quite a bit more weight. But I have been able to lose enough to get my mobility back and to take the urgency off of a lot of my health problems. Such as holding off of going on insulin to control my blood sugar, able to stop taking hypertension meds, able to stop taking prescription painkillers for my chronic back and hip pain. 

But for me, it was not so much that I went on a diet, as that I stopped overeating and using food inappropriately for recreational and self-medicating reasons. 

In other words, instead of dropping from a normal intake of around 2500 calories to an intake of around 1500 calories, I simply dropped from an inappropriate (for my physiology and nutritional needs) intake of around 3500 calories to that good healthy non deprivatory 2500. 

Which some people here DO consider dieting because I deliberately changed my eating habits with the intention to alter my body weight. But I am getting all I need and no more or no less every day. I consider that normal healthy eating instead of "dieting". 

Tracy


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## Tina (Sep 13, 2006)

If you're talking "diet" as in fad diet, yes. If you're talking am I afraid to lose weight? No. Been doing it for the last 2+ years, and had I not, I wouldn't have any mobility whatsoever right now, I am convinced. Eating healthfully and sanely isn't evil; sometimes it is the only answer.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 13, 2006)

Tina said:


> If you're talking "diet" as in fad diet, yes. If you're talking am I afraid to lose weight? No. Been doing it for the last 2+ years, and had I not, I wouldn't have any mobility whatsoever right now, I am convinced. Eating healthfully and sanely isn't evil; sometimes it is the only answer.




You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Tina again.

Exactly my point. Around here it seems a lot of people see weight loss as evil and anti size accepting.


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## PrettyFatGirl4U (Sep 13, 2006)

Carol W. said:


> Absolutely, positively no more weight-loss attempts in my future. I dieted, starting at age 11, for over 40 years. All it did for me was create eating disorders, severe depression, and massive weight gains. I did lose a significant amount of weight last year while dealing with a severe illness, but I sure as hell wasn't dieting.
> 
> I consider diets, like keg parties and playing in sandboxes, a part of my distant past. And that's just fine with me. (Great thread, Paul!)



My sentiments EXACTLY Carol! Now if I lose some because I change my activity level (ie: more swimming in summer) fine but there will be no more diets in my future!


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 13, 2006)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Around here it seems a lot of people see weight loss as evil and anti size accepting.


Yes, and that fact is confusing, disheartening and maddening. There seems to be a definite increasing chasm within this website between the people who believe that the subjects of health, weight control and diet (as in... foods you eat) are a part of our lives, and belong here as discussion topics, and those who staunchly believe that any talk of food control or weight loss *must *be akin to Jenny Craig, and thus doesn't belong. And even more disturbing, that anyone who does lose weight, or try, or even want to _talk _about it is a traitor to fat/size acceptance. My sense of awe about that is only trumped by the simultaneous feeling of insult. 

We had better find a way to get this together, because I fear the message that this division sends is a *very* bad one. 



Tina said:


> If you're talking "diet" as in fad diet, yes. If you're talking am I afraid to lose weight? No. Been doing it for the last 2+ years, and had I not, I wouldn't have any mobility whatsoever right now, I am convinced. Eating healthfully and sanely isn't evil; sometimes it is the only answer.





Tracyarts said:


> I am so happy that I am one of that lucky 1-5% who has been able to keep a significant amount of weight off. While I know that it may not be permanant, I have been able to enjoy the recent past few years with a MUCH better quality of life.


I'm another one of the alleged 1-5% (and that stat is being misused in it's original context here). Are any of us against fat acceptance? Have we EVER posted trumpeting about how thin we are now? Or how bad (aka fat, ugly, wrong, etc.) we were before losing weight? We also didn't do it by going on a _diet_ (hence the problem with using that 95% failure stat). We all made our choice to lose weight for our health, and not because we hated fat people, or wanted to be rail-thin. 

I cannot understand why that is a problem for anyone else here.



NFA said:


> Weight loss carryings numerous health risks even when it works and even in that slim few (excuse the pun) there is no evidence that it improves health. It doesn't make you healthier and it doesn't even make you weigh less. Weight loss as "treatment" is one of the biggest shams around.


Perhaps this is the case for you, personally. But as a blanket statement, it's completely wrong.

P.S. *HEALTH FORUM*


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## Tracyarts (Sep 13, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> I cannot understand why that is a problem for anyone else here.




For more than one reason. 

- They see body acceptance in absolutely black and white terms. There is no "acceptance" if you feel that there are things that need to be corrected or improved. Regardless of the motivation to do so.

- They totally and completely "buy" the theory that weight loss (through any means) is harmful and temporary in all but a few cases which are flukes and should not even be validated because they are statistically insignificant.

- They have never felt the desperation and anguish over chronic pain, loss of mobility and functionality, serious health problems with the potential to destroy life quality and lifespan. Or they have never themselves been supersized and have no personal framework to really understand the constant and daily ramifications of carrying around literally hundreds of pounds of excess body weight. 

- They may see it, but frankly are too invested with their own need to elevate fatness as something more than just a neutral physical state which can be benign or malignant depending on circumstances.

- They may acknowledge that fat can sometimes bring problems but see the answers to those problems being in the form of pharmaceuticals to control weight related comorbidities and assistive technology to compensate for lost mobility. 

- Denial, denial, denial, denial... pretend that all is sunshine and flowers and it will just be a big happy happy joy joy fat and flabulous wonderland. 

- If somebody else succeeds in losing weight and is not in some way "punished" with an automatic regain, damage to health, suffering and woe through deprivation, etc... it might make them have to think about their own ugly weight and food stuff a little too deeply so they have to negate and dismiss others' experience in order not to rock their own little boats.

- They have been indoctrinated in some rigid and inflexible "pro fat" dogma and are just fat fundies like any other fundie out there who cannot see an issue through anybody else's eyes. 

- They may be conflicted over their love for fatness but feel guilty that fatness causes so much pain and suffering for people, that in order to justify and be okay with their feelings they have to buffer them by convincing themselves that weight loss doesn't work anyway so why feel guilty over not wanting to see fat people become less fat or no longer fat. 

Those and more. 
Tracy


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 13, 2006)

For some reason, I am not ashamed to admit that I cried myself to sleep last night thinking about all this. Sucks. Maybe I should get kicked out of here because I don't have my shit together and am confused like I don't know what. I sure do appreciate all of your words. I just need to figure out what the hell to do. I plan on posting a picture of me in my profile soon so you can put a face on the despair.


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## moonvine (Sep 13, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> Yes, and that fact is confusing, disheartening and maddening. There seems to be a definite increasing chasm within this website between the people who believe that the subjects of health, weight control and diet (as in... foods you eat) are a part of our lives, and belong here as discussion topics, and those who staunchly believe that any talk of food control or weight loss *must *be akin to Jenny Craig, and thus doesn't belong. And even more disturbing, that anyone who does lose weight, or try, or even want to _talk _about it is a traitor to fat/size acceptance. My sense of awe about that is only trumped by the simultaneous feeling of insult.
> 
> We had better find a way to get this together, because I fear the message that this division sends is a *very* bad one.



This division has been around for years, and years, and years. I do not think anything you or I can say is going to change it. It predates my involvement in fat acceptance, which is about 10 years now.

I don't think anyone who loses weight is a traitor to fat acceptance. I do think they are not very fat accepting. My local NAAFA chapter is full of people who used to diet, and not a few who had WLS (and lost a lot of weight, and regained it all plus more.). Wow, that's what scares me. If I'm ~300 now, and dieted, and lost 100 pounds..I could regain 150..or 200. It is a vicious, vicious cycle and I'm so glad I stopped dieting. And so, so, very sorry I didn't stop dieting when I was 170 pounds. I firmly believe had I not hopped on the diet rollercoaster I would be about 170 pounds today.





> I cannot understand why that is a problem for anyone else here.



I don't have a problem with people losing weight, albeit temporarily. I don't think diet discussions are appropriate for a fat acceptance site. There are so very few safe diet-free spaces around. I can only think of 2 - NAAFA and BFB. I'd like to see many, many more.


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## Dibaby35 (Sep 13, 2006)

I was soooo tired of the damn sea saw effect of dieting that I finally said "enough" and had band surgery. Sure they want us to follow a "diet" per say after the surgery..but I follow no diet..other than trying to focus on protein. Which isn't like I actually count proteins or anything. I don't monitor my food intake...the band does this for me. It's unrealistic to me to think that people are gonna monitor everything that goes in their mouths on a day to day basis for the rest of their lives. Just not gonna happen...unless your extremely anal I guess..lol. 

Am i still scared of gaining it back? Of course....but I tell you when u go to the docs..and get on that evil scale and ur down six pounds from where u thought you were...it's just....amazing. No more diets ever for me...


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 13, 2006)

Tracyarts said:


> For more than one reason. ... Those and more.


Brave words, Tracy. Kudos to you for having the guts to speak them here. Those concepts are frightening, but I do see some of those elements here, and I sense they're increasing. What does it mean overall though? Does it mean that their side (forgive me for putting it these adversarial terms - but it seems just that) and our side can't coexist? By virtue of the fact that I have NOT dieted down to 150 pounds, and I don't plan to - where do I now belong? I certainly won't be happy on a site with skinny rah-rahs, yet I don't seem to be welcomed here. 



Moonvine said:


> I don't think anyone who loses weight is a traitor to fat acceptance. I do think they are not very fat accepting.


HOW is that possible? How is it that a choice that I make, for MY body is suddenly indicative of what my overall beliefs are? Especially when it comes to anyone else? I've lost weight, yet I'm still here on this site. I still believe in size acceptance and fat acceptance, and even if I am not able to tolerate being very fat myself, it's really presumptuous of you to say my weight loss means anything more than what it is: losing weight. 



Moonvine said:


> I don't have a problem with people losing weight, albeit temporarily.


What does that mean? Is that because you believe that it's ALL temporary? Or that if someone does manage to lose and maintain, you then develop a problem with them? It's great if you've gotten off a diet rollercoaster, and now enjoy a stable healthy weight. I'm really happy that you've achieved that. But plenty of others haven't... and I think it's wrong for you to tell them that their attempts are futile. 



Moonvine said:


> I don't think diet discussions are appropriate for a fat acceptance site.


We're going to have to clarify here. I don't think any of us wants to turn Dim into Jenny Craig or WW. That's certainly the farthest thing from what I want. But do I want sane talk about food with a connection to getting healthier? Yes. Do I want more posts like Dream's? Yes. To me, that's as much a part of my being fat as plus size clothing. I don't consider any of that to be the "diet talk" you are so against. And until Conrad says different, I hope it continues here.


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## moonvine (Sep 13, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> HOW is that possible? How is it that a choice that I make, for MY body is suddenly indicative of what my overall beliefs are? Especially when it comes to anyone else? I've lost weight, yet I'm still here on this site. I still believe in size acceptance and fat acceptance, and even if I am not able to tolerate being very fat myself, it's really presumptuous of you to say my weight loss means anything more than what it is: losing weight.



I'm sorry you feel it to be presumptuous. I've been through this time and time again with so many other people I don't really feel like getting into it an umpteenth time. I'll try to dig out some of my prior posts, or you can read NFA's posts instead. He writes better.



> What does that mean? Is that because you believe that it's ALL temporary? Or that if someone does manage to lose and maintain, you then develop a problem with them? It's great if you've gotten off a diet rollercoaster, and now enjoy a stable healthy weight. I'm really happy that you've achieved that. But plenty of others haven't... and I think it's wrong for you to tell them that their attempts are futile.



I believe that 95% of all diets fail over time. 

As for your other question my best friend lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago. She has since gained it all back plus more. Had she been one of the 5%, would our relationship have changed? Not even a little.

However, she didn't come to a fat acceptance board, and talk about dieting. In fact, she didn't even talk to me about dieting. Had she asked my opinion or for advice, would I have told her that I think dieting is harmful and bad? You betcha, because I really care about her and I don't want her to have to go through that. But I can't stop her from it. 

I think warning people about dieting (Not so much just saying "Your efforts are futile") is a good, and caring and loving thing to do. We don't want to see people on the endless diet rollercoaster. We want them to learn from what we've experienced, and not the hard way (Hoping that this diet is The One, and the euphoria of weight loss, followed by the crash when the regain starts. The self blame. Until, of course, the next diet is found. Why the hell would anyone want to live like that? It looks akin to being a drug addict from the outside.)



> We're going to have to clarify here. I don't think any of us wants to turn Dim into Jenny Craig or WW. That's certainly the farthest thing from what I want. But do I want sane talk about food with a connection to getting healthier? Yes. Do I want more posts like Dream's? Yes. To me, that's as much a part of my being fat as plus size clothing. I don't consider any of that to be the "diet talk" you are so against. And until Conrad says different, I hope it continues here.



I will respond by posting NAAFA's definition of diets. 



> The term "diet" within this policy refers exclusively to weight reduction diets. "Dieting" is defined as any attempt to achieve or maintain lower body weight by intentionally limiting or manipulating the amount or type of food intake. Weight reduction diets include medically supervised diets; self-administered diets; commercial diet organizations and centers; weight-loss support groups or behavior modification programs; "fad" diets; "sensible, well-balanced" diets; in-hospital fasts; very-low-calorie diets (VLCDs); prepackaged food plans; and diets supplemented by drugs or artificial food products or supplements.
> 
> "Dieting" does not refer to attempts to lower fat sugar, salt, or cholesterol intake, increase fiber intake, exercise or pursue a medically mandated nutritional regimen prescribed for specific medical conditions. Weight-loss diets have long been promoted as a permanent cure for "obesity," although they rarely produce long-lasting or permanent results. According to existing medical research, fewer than five percent of all dieters succeed in losing a significant amount of weight and maintaining that weight loss over a five-year period. Ninety percent of all dieters regain some or all of the weight originally lost and at least one-third gain more. In recent years, an increasing body of research has substantiated this diet failure rate and acknowledged genetic and physiological factors in the determination of body size.


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## NFA (Sep 13, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> Perhaps this is the case for you, personally. But as a blanket statement, it's completely wrong.



No. As a blanket statement its the truth. Diets don't work. Not an opinion. They don't. Weight loss is fundamentally incompatable with fat acceptance and I am very tired of people who try to portray themselves as couragous and beseiged defenders of the STATUS QUO. There is a world of support for this mindset which has never been shown to work. I find that astonishing and depressing, but that is reality. Why is it so impossible for people to accept that some people would want a different path? I never go to diet websites to point out the fundamental failures and lies of the diet industry. Never. They have a right to their space and to their beliefs no matter how much I may disagree. Fat acceptance and size acceptance exists as a different path. Shame on anyone who would seek to silence those who speak out against the status quo. Shame on them for pretending that they are disenfranchised by the mere existance of someone who believes different. If this site wishes to ever lay claim on the moniker of fat acceptance, it should get used to people who have the guts to stand up for it and speak out about it.

Weight loss isn't size acceptance. Not if its drug dependancy, disordered eating, or organ amputation. Never has been and it NEVER will be. Get used to it. You can attack and intimate all you like, but there will ALWAYS be people willing to stand up for what size acceptance really is. If you cannot handle being exposed to such views, then maybe you shouldn't come to a site which lays claim on the fat acceptance mantle. Unless Dimensions officially states its opposition to size acceptance, this is a perfectly appropriate forum to discuss those views.


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## moonvine (Sep 13, 2006)

You rule, NFA.:wubu:


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## Spanky (Sep 13, 2006)

"Dieting" does not refer to attempts to lower fat sugar, salt, or cholesterol intake, increase fiber intake, exercise or pursue a medically mandated nutritional regimen prescribed for specific medical conditions. Weight-loss diets have long been promoted as a permanent cure for "obesity," although they rarely produce long-lasting or permanent results. According to existing medical research, fewer than five percent of all dieters succeed in losing a significant amount of weight and maintaining that weight loss over a five-year period. Ninety percent of all dieters regain some or all of the weight originally lost and at least one-third gain more. In recent years, an increasing body of research has substantiated this diet failure rate and acknowledged genetic and physiological factors in the determination of body size.

Thanks for posting this definition, Moonvine! I have read and re-read it and I agree with it. NFA is right to rail against the diet industry. I have never spent a cent on it and never will, but as a boy, I watched my mother go in and out of the fad diets, spend thousands and yo-yo in weight. 

I just want to know what your thoughts are with a person who decided to start exercising or decreasing salt or cholestrol etc for the goal of improving health. I say this with the idea in mind that a thin person who smokes, doesn't exercise and uses salt licks in the kitchen also could decide to improve health the same way. But, if the changes in exercise or diet result is some weight loss, do you think this then goes contrary to fat acceptance?? 

Is weight loss ok if they go about it on their own with the goal of health improvement? If someone makes a personal decision to make a change and the result is weight going from 450 to 390 lbs or 290 to 250 and improving health, they are still fat by society's set standards and I can't see how they still wouldn't be fully accepted in this group. 

And I ask hoping or assuming that they wouldn't judge others or say, "well, I did this, you all should too."

Just trying to get my head around all of this. 

-Spanky


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## Zandoz (Sep 13, 2006)

Where to start.........

I guess first off would be my view on size acceptance. My perspective would be more of size irrelevance. I do not care what size someone was, is, or wants to be. Size does not make or define a person, inside or out. Without other changes I'm not going to think more or less of anyone if they went from 601 to 106, or the other way around.

Next I'd have to qualify what I call a diet...or more to the point, what I do not call a diet. I do not consider curbing excesses to be dieting. I do not call changing what you eat, within your "comfort zone" dieting. What I call dieting is changing your your eating habits in ways that you can not comfortably maintain mentally, physically, and even economically for the rest of your life. If it's stressing one or more of those, it's a diet.

My personal experience. I'm one of those people who no matter how I eat, sooner or later, I will be gaining. Living in denial of that has totally screwed me up. My next to last great experiment in dieting about 10 years ago ended in me losing about 125 pounds before the gaining commenced. In a foolhardy attempt to stave off the gain, I'd cut my food intake down to 2 nutrition shakes and a sandwich a day. I went from calm, laid back, very strong muscularly, and only missing 2 days of work in my entire adult life prior...to a nervous wreck with no memory or attention span, so weak I had to struggle to open a bottle of diet pop, and sick constantly. The end of it came with me in the hospital, with some unknown bug and no strength to fight it, and the doctors pumping me full of oxygen, IVs, and steroids. After I pulled through, my wife was insistent that the dieting insanity was done. Of course I immediately regained all the lost weight, eating far less than what I had been going into the diet from hell. A doctor summed up the net result of that and a lifetime of other diets..."congratulations, you now have the metabolism of a stone".

In the 10 years since, on a near no sugar diet due to the diabetes triggered by the massive doses of steroids, I've slowly gained another 75 or so pounds beyond my highest weight going into the diet from hell. Last fall, when my glucose levels started to climb and increasing meds made no difference, my current "Fat causes everything" mindset doctor insisted I go on a near no carb diet. After two months with no apparent weight loss (and no effect on my glucose levels), the doctor was insistent that I HAD to be eating lots of carbs or I would be losing weight. Finally, after about 3 months I did lose a couple of inches off the waist, but by the 5th month my system was up to it's old tricks and I was gaining again...with no effect on glucose levels (that problem turned out to be a drug interaction, and not related to my diet at all). Moral of the story...the same thing that most (I did not say all) folks who diet find out...sooner or later your system is going to adjust and the net result will be gain and not loss. 

Where I stand (I should say sit, because I can't stand for more than a few seconds) today is essentially I need a bodyectomy. BMI in the 70s, Diabetes, severe sleep apnea, severe arthritis & degenerative joint disease, high BP and cholesterol, and thyroid problems, a pulmonary system that forgets to work until I'm gasping, no short term memory, the attention span of a gnat until the gnat demanded it back...and all the fun size related mobility issues. 
 
Do I fear dieting? Hell yes! All that is left is for it to kill me.


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## Brenda (Sep 13, 2006)

""Is weight loss ok if they go about it on their own with the goal of health improvement? If someone makes a personal decision to make a change and the result is weight going from 450 to 390 lbs or 290 to 250 and improving health, they are still fat by society's set standards and I can't see how they still wouldn't be fully accepted in this group. ""

Judging from NFA's words this person is not to be accepted.


Funny thing is I used to sound a lot like NFA and Moonvine. Of course you should not lose weight, I didn't because I was fat and felt fine. Than the great truth of life unfolded before me and I had to make a decision stay on the path I was and face certain pre mature death or change. I choice to change. While I am not pursuing thinness I am after mobility and longevity. Fact is I lost weight and high blood pressure disappeared, pre diabetes disappeared, water retention in legs no longer occurs, pain in legs when wallking is no longer an issue, IBS symptoms are gone and I don't exercise often so it is directly related to the weight loss.

So now that I am once again under 300lbs I can say no don't diet, what's the point? Because I feel good at this weight does not mean someone else can carry it without health problems. It is easy to stand and make sweeping judgements when you yourself are feeling fine and dandy. 


Brenda


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## Dibaby35 (Sep 13, 2006)

Well since weight loss isn't size accepting that must mean than I'm in the wrong place..and all the other people that have lost weight are in the wrong place. Oh well...


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 13, 2006)

I agree. Diets don't work. Weight loss can, for some, be achieved other ways. 



> Weight loss isn't size acceptance. Get used to it.



No. I decide whether I support, and am part of, SA. 



> If you cannot handle being exposed to such views, then maybe you shouldn't come to a site which lays claim on the fat acceptance mantle. Unless Dimensions officially states its opposition to size acceptance, this is a perfectly appropriate forum to discuss those views.



I can handle it fine (did I suggest that YOU leave?). But I'll also state *MY* view, _thankyouverymuch_. And as for whether I stay or go, that's my decision as well. And until Conrad states otherwise, it's perfectly appropriate for me to discuss my life as I see fit here. And that life includes discussions of my health, including weight loss. I'm glad to see there are others that feel the same way. Those that don't aren't forced to participate.


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## Tina (Sep 13, 2006)

Yeah. That whole "Weight loss isn't size acceptance. Get used to it" is merely an opinion. An opinion that many in FA/SA have come to disagree with due to experience with their own bodies, while still supporting, and _being a part of_ Fat and Size Acceptance. Get used to _that._



SamanthaNY said:


> I'm another one of the alleged 1-5% (and that stat is being misused in it's original context here).


I don't believe in those numbers, as they do not apply to my life or experiences of those around me who have lost weight. My mother lost 130 lbs and has kept it off for almost 20 years, though she is still very round and would be considered beyond plus-size. My sister lost weight (I don't remember how much, but significant and noticable) about six years ago and has kept it off, and she is still what would be considered fat. A friend of mine has lost about 1/3 of her body weight and has kept it off for several years now. I have lost about 115 lbs over 2 years ago and have no intention of it coming back, because I want to _live_ my life, not have it as a memory. At the same time, I will also never be thin, both by design and by genetics. Fad diets might work in the short term, but always leave the person ultimately needing to find a sane way of eating in order to keep it off. Everyone I know who has experienced this knows it.

Speaking of experience, anyone who has experienced health problems and loss of mobility due to weight knows what it is like to have their life become small -- small enough, say, to fit into the size of the average bedroom, where they are held captive by their weight. Unless you have lived that life you have no right to judge anyone for losing weight in order to save their lives.


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## RedVelvet (Sep 13, 2006)

Marry me, Tina....you are beautiful beyond compare.


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## RedVelvet (Sep 13, 2006)

Wanting to feel better, wanting to make changes so that you are more mobile, more healthy...or simply more comfortable is a GOOD thing....in fact, its beyond size acceptance...its fucking self love.

I agree that diets do nothing but make you fat, but gentle and careful care of the self is always to be encouraged.

NFA..your points are good, but your viewpoint is remarkably black and white for a man of your intelligence. There has to be room for healthy change.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 13, 2006)

Dibaby35 said:


> Well since weight loss isn't size accepting that must mean than I'm in the wrong place..and all the other people that have lost weight are in the wrong place. Oh well...



It's just one person (or two persons') opinions. We belong here if we want to be here. And besides, for me, I didn't accept my size. Why would I accept something that was costing me my career, my health, my happiness? Why would I accept something that was destroying my life? Hell NO I didn't accept it. Why would anyone accept something that cost them so dearly? 

I loved myself enough to take a huge risk, because for me, my weight was killing me -- spiritually and physically. This isn't the case for many people and for those who can live fat and happy, more power to them. I was one for a long time until, as Brenda so eloquently stated, the truth of life unfolded. But when my weight started costing me, it became unacceptable, and I spent years struggling with my beliefs in size acceptance with the reality that I was miserable. Eventually I decided to have WLS, and I have only one regret -- that I allowed the dogma of SA to prevent me from pursuing this option earlier. I'm still fat, I'll probably always be fat, but all of my health problems have disappeared or diminished and I feel younger than I've felt in 20 years.

So yeah, I wasn't accepting of my size. And with good reason -- it was ruining my life. For those of you who can be fat and live a happy, fulfilled life, I hope you never have to experience what I did.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 13, 2006)

Ok since no one else has brought it up, Im going to.

What about Lexi? What about her post? She wants and needs to lose weight. No one is shouting at her not to, because she NEEDS to. There are even people on her thread asking what took her so long to do so. I fully support her in all her efforts and hope she gets to where she needs to be.

I mention that because this is a no win situation here. If I want to lose weight, I am shunned. If I dont lose weight I will end up immobile and therefore condemned because I didn't do something about it faster.

Im sorry, but this sort of crazy making is f*ed up. Weight loss is NOT anti size/fat acceptance. I accept that I am going to be fat forever, probably well over 400 and I believe I deserve the same rights as every other person on this planet. I, however, am not healthy. I am 28 and have high BP, insulin resistance and a whole list of crap that would motivate anyone else to lose a little weight. I want to be around for a long time. I have found the love of my life and I do not want to leave him any earlier than I have to.

Ignorance. At least every couple of months on this board there is a thread about another member lost. It is disheartening when someone MY age dies. It is scary. How can it be denied? I am on other lists and boards and those dont even come close to the death count here.

Oh and what about the post about Gina and Mark? People were ok with her losing weight and having WLS. Do you need to be near death around here to get some support????

I do not buy into to the diet myth spread by the media, but common sense health, I buy into 100%. I don't have to starve to death, but at the same time I cannot keep living as I have...and if you all think that I am anti size accepting...piss off.

And to anyone who has never been above 450lbs...you really need to piss off. Walk ONE day in my shoes, then tell me how I feel or what I believe in or how I should live.


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## Tina (Sep 13, 2006)

RedVelvet said:


> Marry me, Tina....you are beautiful beyond compare.



:kiss2: Thank you, Velvet. :kiss2:


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## missaf (Sep 13, 2006)

Size Acceptance is just that. Learning to accept yourself for the size you are. If you have health concerns that are endangering your existence, or depressing you, of course you're not going to accept yourself, and no one can tell you different.

Being part of the SA movement means that you understand that each person has to learn to find their places in the world, and that place will be different for each person. Just because I am happy being my size doesn't mean that it would be the same for someone who has serious BP or diabetes at my size. 

SA is first and foremost not an agenda to be shoved down someone's throat. It's a message to teach self-love, and then to show the world that people can be happy at any size.


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## gypsy (Sep 13, 2006)

Tracyarts said:


> Which some people here DO consider dieting because I deliberately changed my eating habits with the intention to alter my body weight. But I am getting all I need and no more or no less every day. I consider that normal healthy eating instead of "dieting".



And as we've all been told...over and over...changing the way you eat should not be considered "dieting", but a lifestyle change. And I think it's horrible that there are people who condemn others for trying to lose a few pounds. 

If you look at the feeding lifestyle...how many people gain the weight for their partners...and then lose it? I've read in a few areas on this website that this practice is the generally accepted lifestyle for feeders/feedees. Does this make THEM against the SA movement? I'm sure I could look on this site all day, and find instances where the folks who disapprove of dieting also turn around and contradict themselves in such a manner as stated above. 

It all boils down to...don't point the finger at everyone else. Accept who *everyone* is, no matter what they do or do not do. And if you don't like it? Just pass it by and leave it be.


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## Tracyarts (Sep 13, 2006)

NFA said:


> Weight loss is fundamentally incompatable with fat acceptance and I am very tired of people who try to portray themselves as couragous and beseiged defenders of the STATUS QUO.



So, NFA.... Since I have lost weight and am in the process of losing more weight, I am incompatible with fat acceptance? Are you implying that since I have made this choice and do not feel ashamed or apologetic for it, I no longer have a place in fat acceptance? 

Even though I believe that it is fundamentally wrong to discriminate against somebody because of their body shape or size? Even though I believe that nobody should feel pressured or coerced into chaging or maintaining their body in any way simply to conform to the ideals or wishes of others? Even though my eventual goal weight is still in the range of "obesity"? 

If so... what would you have preferred? That instead of losing the weight to control my obesity comorbidities and reclaim my mobility that I had gone permanantly in a wheelchair/scooter, and just accepted assistance to perform basic daily tasks like bathing, dressing, toileting, etc...? That I should have stayed on the blood pressure meds that made me sick? That I should have just resigned myself to daily insulin shots? Put the skin degradation out of mind? That I should have just accepted the fact that I would have to endure a life-long dependency on prescription pain meds to control the pain I felt every moment of the day from the pressure of my weight on my skeletal structure? That I should have just accepted with grace, the harsh decline that was robbing me of my life before I even reached thirty years old and accepted the fact that I would end my life bedbound? 

Do you honestly feel that accepting those things is preferable to losing weight? 

Am I just shit out of luck because my fat was destroying my ability to lead a meaningful life? Because I am one of the unlucky ones for whom that level of fatness is malignant, I am just not welcome in fat acceptance? Were my only choices to accept the suffering along with the fat or bow out of fat acceptance? Or should I have just slinked away into the closet and hid my shame over not being able to "handle" and accept my fat and lost the weight in secret so as not to offend anybody who is rigidly anti-weight loss?

Basically you are saying that if you have obesity caused or exacerbated health problems and/or mobility loss you have one of two choices. 

1.) Suck it up and deal and make use of drugs and assistive technology to manage those comorbidities and mobility losses as best as they can be managed and make yourself be okay with it all.

2.) Take your traitorous weight loss mongering self, and hit the road because fat acceptance no longer wants nor needs you anymore. 

Because that is what I am reading in what you are typing. And if so, that is a very callous thing to say, that as long as fat is working for you, you are welcome in fat acceptance, but as soon as fat no longer works for you, either deal with the suffering as best as it can be managed by weight preserving methods, and put on a brave face; or get the hell out because we don't want you anymore. 

Do you even realize how alienating and dehumanizing and condescending that is to a significant portion of the fat population? 

Tracy


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## gypsy (Sep 13, 2006)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> I mention that because this is a no win situation here. If I want to lose weight, I am shunned. If I dont lose weight I will end up immobile and therefore condemned because I didn't do something about it faster.
> 
> Im sorry, but this sort of crazy making is f*ed up. Weight loss is NOT anti size/fat acceptance. I accept that I am going to be fat forever, probably well over 400 and I believe I deserve the same rights as every other person on this planet. I, however, am not healthy. I am 28 and have high BP, insulin resistance and a whole list of crap that would motivate anyone else to lose a little weight. I want to be around for a long time. I have found the love of my life and I do not want to leave him any earlier than I have to.
> 
> ...




I posted a response before I read this post...and you have captured the idea that I was trying to put across. Kudos to you.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 13, 2006)

gypsy said:


> I posted a response before I read this post...and you have captured the idea that I was trying to put across. Kudos to you.




Sorry, Im a chronic editor, lol....I will write a post and edit it like 5 times before I relase it into the world, lol

And kudoos for you for bringing up feeding as anti SA. True point sister, true point.


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 13, 2006)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Walk ONE day in my shoes, then tell me how I feel or what I believe in or how I should live.


Great, great post - and not only because you mention shoes


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## RedVelvet (Sep 13, 2006)

I am in awe of this entire post. BRAVA!









Tracyarts said:


> Basically you are saying that if you have obesity caused or exacerbated health problems and/or mobility loss you have one of two choices.
> 
> 1.) Suck it up and deal and make use of drugs and assistive technology to manage those comorbidities and mobility losses as best as they can be managed and make yourself be okay with it all.
> 
> ...


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 13, 2006)

I'm really enjoying the passion and eloquence with which people are expressing themselves. I just wanted to reiterate, from my own perspective, something I feel is important to note.

To me, size acceptance means that everybody has the right to be treated fairly, humanely, and respectfully -- by doctors, by employers, by partners, by friends, etc. They shouldn't be treated as "less than" because of their weight, any more than they should be treated as "less than" because of their gender, religion or sexual orientation. To me, this is the "nutmeat" (kudos to Stephen Colbert for that visual) of the issue.

And further, I don't think any of us is saying that it's impossible or wrong to be fat and happy, fat and fit, or fat and fulfilled. For some of us, we reached a place where our bodies could no longer healthily tolerate the fat and we had clear indications of such because of our symptoms. We're in no way saying that our truth is true for everyone. That's just our experiences, in our own bodies, and in no way takes away from the experiences of the many who CAN live fat and happy. So please, those of you who ARE fat and happy, enjoy it, and please don't take offense or feel judged that, for us, it didn't work and we had to look into alternatives.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 13, 2006)

Miss Vickie...I was gunna rep you...but: "You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later." LOL.


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## missaf (Sep 13, 2006)

Oh noes, I agree with Vickie, twice in one day?! Oh noes! 

Vickie's response reminded me of my sister. She's 5'7 and 180 or so, but she was gifted with a serious rack. I mean, the twins were 44D when she was 14, and they kept growing. She was in so much pain, tired of people talking to her chest, and tired of fending off boys, that she asked for a breast reduction.  She got it, and she gained self confidence and felt like a person rather than a rack on pain meds. Her situation required drastic measures. Sometimes it takes that for ANYONE to come to grips with themselves. These things are crutches, they are tools to happiness if used correctly.


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## GWARrior (Sep 13, 2006)

Excellent posts! Size acceptance is all about being accepting of different sizes. If one feels they should lose some weight to feel healthier, more power to them!

Some people are just inconsiderate.


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## Paul (Sep 13, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> For some reason, I am not ashamed to admit that I cried myself to sleep last night thinking about all this. Sucks. Maybe I should get kicked out of here because I don't have my shit together and am confused like I don't know what. I sure do appreciate all of your words. I just need to figure out what the hell to do. I plan on posting a picture of me in my profile soon so you can put a face on the despair.


Please do not feel you should be kicked out, simply because you are on the journey to "get your shit together." Dimensions is here to assist people, in the best way possible, to assist people to "get their shit together".

Please post a picture...Dim posters are kind if you "look funny".


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 14, 2006)

Paul said:


> Please do not feel you should be kicked out, simply because you are on the journey to "get your shit together." Dimensions is here to assist people, in the best way possible, to assist people to "get their shit together".
> 
> Please post a picture...Dim posters are kind if you "look funny".



Thanks for that Paul. Thanks to everybody else who has been supportive. I feel a lot better today. I did post a pic on the show your face thread but I'll do it again here. 

You know what's funny? One of the posters who was adamant about not wanting to hear "diet talk" has also stated in other threads that they have not dieted in 7 years. The same poster stated they have been involved with the size acceptance movement for the past 10 years. Hmmmm, funny. That would mean that poster was involved with size acceptance for 3 years and still dieting. How unfortunate that that poster would not have a little understanding for someone who is new to this concept. 

Anyhow, I am glad to be here. 

View attachment RR.jpeg


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## Jane (Sep 14, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> Thanks for that Paul. Thanks to everybody else who has been supportive. I feel a lot better today. I did post a pic on the show your face thread but I'll do it again here.
> 
> You know what's funny? One of the posters who was adamant about not wanting to hear "diet talk" has also stated in other threads that they have not dieted in 7 years. The same poster stated they have been involved with the size acceptance movement for the past 10 years. Hmmmm, funny. That would mean that poster was involved with size acceptance for 3 years and still dieting. How unfortunate that that poster would not have a little understanding for someone who is new to this concept.
> 
> Anyhow, I am glad to be here.


Just always think about what's from inside you and what is pressure from outside.

If it's from inside you, go with it.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> You know what's funny? One of the posters who was adamant about not wanting to hear "diet talk" has also stated in other threads that they have not dieted in 7 years. The same poster stated they have been involved with the size acceptance movement for the past 10 years. Hmmmm, funny. That would mean that poster was involved with size acceptance for 3 years and still dieting. How unfortunate that that poster would not have a little understanding for someone who is new to this concept.
> 
> Anyhow, I am glad to be here.




Hi Cutey,

I am sorry you don't think I have understanding for people who are new to the concept. I was new to the concept myself once. 

I'm also sorry you don't understand why some of us would want diet-talk-free spaces. There are lots and lots of places on the Internet where people can get support with their diets, and very very very few (maybe 2, one of which you have to pay for) where people can relax in a diet-talk-free atmosphere.

I would not ask anyone not to diet, though if it were a close friend of mine I would worry about their health. All I would ask is that if people choose to diet, that they not talk about it on fat acceptance sites. It is triggering for some people.

Your picture is beautiful!

Take care,

Kelley


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 14, 2006)

Let me point out that size acceptance is not only about accepting you size, but the size of others. The problem involves health choices. 

Personally I believe, if someone is in a weight loss plan that does not involve starvation so they can increase their mobility and/or ease the health problems being at a very large weight, I don't see them as a traitor to size acceptance. Isn't going after someone for lossing a few pounds the same as going after other person for gain a few pounds? 

Are we so unsure about the message, that we get so uptight whenever one of us loses a few pounds, even if it's for health reasons? 

NAAFA states that they "encourage fat people to strive for optimum fitness levels in accordance with their health goals". They also state "different physiques and levels of fitness are appropriate for different people". 

In conclusion, along as we are following message that we don't have to be thin to health and happy, why can't we accept those who persue a healthy way to increase their health?


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> Let me point out that size acceptance is not only about accepting you size, but the size of others. The problem involves health choices.
> 
> Personally I believe, if someone is in a weight loss plan that does not involve starvation so they can increase their mobility and/or ease the health problems being at a very large weight, I don't see them as a traitor to size acceptance. Isn't going after someone for loss a few pounds the same as going after other person for gain a few pounds?
> 
> ...



The unfortunate fact is that 95% of the people who lose weight regain it within the next 5 years, often with some more. So people who are dieting to solve these problems are mostly going to gain the weight back. 

It isn't about me accepting them, or not accepting them. I accept everyone, as long as they don't talk about their diet in my space. It is about the long term implications to their health caused by yo-yo dieting. It is about a core tenet of the fat acceptance movement being that dieting doesn't work and is unhealthy. 

I am sure of the message. Part of the message is "dieting is bad." Hearing it and understanding it and living it saved my life, so I tend to be a bit evangelical about it.


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## MissToodles (Sep 14, 2006)

I understand how both sides feel. Moonvine, I get it, you want a safe space. We're constantly induated every day with dieting messages. On the other hand, it's important not to deny health issues or turn away people who have problems that can be excaberated by size. Because certainly most of us here can't relate to the gal who wears a size 14 and wants to be a 4! Maybe there can be some sort of neutral meeting ground.


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## Jane (Sep 14, 2006)

She didn't start this thread. Diet was in the title. We all went to it.

Lighten up.

I don't like talking about them either, but GEEZ!!!!!


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> The unfortunate fact is that 95% of the people who lose weight regain it within the next 5 years, often with some more. So people who are dieting to solve these problems are mostly going to gain the weight back.
> 
> It isn't about me accepting them, or not accepting them. I accept everyone, as long as they don't talk about their diet in my space. It is about the long term implications to their health caused by yo-yo dieting. It is about a core tenet of the fat acceptance movement being that dieting doesn't work and is unhealthy.
> 
> I am sure of the message. Part of the message is "dieting is bad." Hearing it and understanding it and living it saved my life, so I tend to be a bit evangelical about it.



This is one of the reason I don't like the word diet. Yes, the restriction of food is indeed bad for your health in the long run. However, I was refering to execrising, that while not guarantee weight loss, will guarantee improved health.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> This is one of the reason I don't like the word diet. Yes, the restriction of food is indeed bad for your health in the long run. However, I was refering to execrising, that while not guarantee weight loss, will guarantee improved health.



Sorry, I didn't detect that in your response. Yes, I think the fat acceptance movement encourages exercise. The thing that you get free of when you are free of dieting is that exercise becomes independent of weight loss, so you can exercise without expecting it to cause weight loss.


This is a big advantage IMHO over people who start an exercise program, don't lose weight, and then stop the exercise program.


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Hi Cutey,
> 
> I am sorry you don't think I have understanding for people who are new to the concept. I was new to the concept myself once.
> 
> ...



Thanks Kelley, your picture is, too. I understand how you feel. Maybe there could be some sort of compromise regarding being diet-talk-free. Perhaps there could be a section here on Dims for people who do want to discuss healthy lifestyle choices the same way there are sections for other things like the paysite board etc. That way if a person did not want to hear about dieting or lifestyle changes, they could avoid the board altogether. (the same way I avoid some boards here) It is just a thought, a suggestion, possibly a solution.

Unfortunately, it may be a simple unavoidable fact that some people of size may have a need for that type of discussion. I know your response about other sites for diets etc. I personally would prefer to be able to communicate with people like myself (people of size) not people who have 5lbs to lose.


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## Jane (Sep 14, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> Thanks Kelley, your picture is, too. I understand how you feel. Maybe there could be some sort of compromise regarding being diet-talk-free. Perhaps there could be a section here on Dims for people who do want to discuss healthy lifestyle choices the same way there are sections for other things like the paysite board etc. That way if a person did not want to hear about dieting or lifestyle changes, they could avoid the board altogether. (the same way I avoid some boards here) It is just a thought, a suggestion, possibly a solution.
> 
> Unfortunately, it may be a simple unavoidable fact that some people of size may have a need for that type of discussion. I know your response about other sites for diets etc. I personally would prefer to be able to communicate with people like myself (people of size) not people who have 5lbs to lose.


They are working on it. It's just taking some time because Conrad wants to do it right.


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## GWARrior (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I accept everyone, as long as they don't talk about their diet in my space.




Sorry, but this isnt your space. Its everyone's space.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

GWARrior said:


> Sorry, but this isnt your space. Its everyone's space.



I meant my personal space, as in around me. In my home or my car. I would never think Dimensions was my personal space, but my home and my car ARE. Sorry for any confusion. The majority of my friends do not diet anyway, and the ones who do don't talk about it around me. It is a boring topic of conversation.


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## GWARrior (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I meant my personal space, as in around me. In my home or my car. I would never think Dimensions was my personal space, but my home and my car ARE. Sorry for any confusion. The majority of my friends do not diet anyway, and the ones who do don't talk about it around me. It is a boring topic of conversation.




Then you should have no beef with it being discussed here.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

GWARrior said:


> Then you should have no beef with it being discussed here.




Um, seriously, who are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't have a beef about? 

I want a space on the Internet that is diet talk free. To be clear, I am not trying to dictate what Conrad does with this space. There are 80 bajillion places to talk about dieting on the Internet. I am not sure why people get so upset that some of us want just a few that do not allow it.


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## GWARrior (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Um, seriously, who are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't have a beef about?
> 
> I want a space on the Internet that is diet talk free. To be clear, I am not trying to dictate what Conrad does with this space. There are 80 bajillion places to talk about dieting on the Internet. I am not sure why people get so upset that some of us want just a few that do not allow it.




um seriously, who are you to tell people thayt they are bad for wanting to diet?

Obviously this isnt the place for diet-free talk. get over it.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

GWARrior said:


> um seriously, who are you to tell people thayt they are bad for wanting to diet?
> 
> Obviously this isnt the place for diet-free talk. get over it.




I have never in my life told anyone they were bad for wanting to diet. I have said diets are bad, and are unhealthy, and there is a 95% regain rate within 5 years. That doesn't mean people are bad for wanting to diet. Smoking is also a horrible habit, but smoking in and of itself doesn't make people bad.

I think any site that purports itself to be a fat acceptance site is a place for diet-free talk.

I'm not sure why you have to intentionally attempt to be rude every time you post something. Makes it difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion with you. But maybe that isn't what you want.


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## GWARrior (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I have never in my life told anyone they were bad for wanting to diet. I have said diets are bad, and are unhealthy, and there is a 95% regain rate within 5 years. That doesn't mean people are bad for wanting to diet. Smoking is also a horrible habit, but smoking in and of itself doesn't make people bad.
> 
> I think any site that purports itself to be a fat acceptance site is a place for diet-free talk.
> 
> I'm not sure why you have to intentionally attempt to be rude every time you post something. Makes it difficult to have any sort of reasonable discussion with you. But maybe that isn't what you want.




look, you can go on and on about how silly diets are, but it doesnt change the fact that this is a site for people to talk about being fat. talking about being fat involves weight issues, including weightloss. weightloss includes dieting. GET OVER IT. im not being rude, im being upfront.

WANTING TO LOSE WEIGHT TO FEEL BETTER ISNT AGAINST SIZE ACCEPTANCE.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

GWARrior said:


> look, you can go on and on about how silly diets are, but it doesnt change the fact that this is a site for people to talk about being fat. talking about being fat involves weight issues, including weightloss. weightloss includes dieting. GET OVER IT. im not being rude, im being upfront.



I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just "get over" something because you start typing in all caps. When I and other fat acceptors talk about being fat, it doesn't include weight loss, because dieting for weight loss is inherently anti fat acceptance. 

Scream away, now.


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## GWARrior (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just "get over" something because you start typing in all caps. When I and other fat acceptors talk about being fat, it doesn't include weight loss, because dieting for weight loss is inherently anti fat acceptance.
> 
> Scream away, now.



How the fuck do you figure its anti-fat acceptance? Well gee, Moonvine. I was thinking about losing some weight because I feel unhealthy, but I guess Im not gonna now, cause YOU would think im a traitor to the fat-acceptance movement! 

Fuck that.

Maybe you shouldnt fucking talk so much about FAT acceptance. Do you want to be treated equally despite your size? Try SIZE acceptance. Learn to tolerate all kinds of people no matter what size they happen to be. Im not going to gain 100 lbs because you think Im going against your precious fat acceptance.


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## gypsy (Sep 14, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> Perhaps there could be a section here on Dims for people who do want to discuss healthy lifestyle choices the same way there are sections for other things like the paysite board etc. That way if a person did not want to hear about dieting or lifestyle changes, they could avoid the board altogether. (the same way I avoid some boards here) It is just a thought, a suggestion, possibly a solution.



Like perhaps the HEALTH BOARD that a few of us have been clamouring for?


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## Littleghost (Sep 14, 2006)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Exactly my point. Around here it seems a lot of people see weight loss as evil and anti size accepting.


Unfortunately, I'd imagine it's because they're afraid of "opening the floodgates" to any demands of losing weight, like the mentioned fad diets and beauty ideals. They've found a sheltered place from the barrage of all that and sadly go on the attack to any perceived threat. I'm not sure how the whole thing will (if) be resolved, as it's obviously such a delicate and volatile subject.  

Healthier and happier days, 
--Littleghost


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> When I and other fat acceptors talk about being fat, it doesn't include weight loss, because dieting for weight loss is inherently anti fat acceptance.



That's your belief - and that's fine. But you don't get to decide what size acceptance is for anyone else.


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## Jane (Sep 14, 2006)

Okay, weight-reduction diets don't work long term.

Diets however, are everything that goes in our mouths. We all have diets, and some of us have dietary restrictions imposed by our bodies (my BAD relationship with dairy products).

We can make adjustments to our diets (everything that goes into our mouths) that can help us feel better. These adjustments may or may not resort in weight reduction, and the majority of us here do not think they will or really care if they do.

Many of us are tired of feeling pressured to lose weight our entire lives, and are quite frankly pissed at the rest of the world that thinks we are so heavily into overindulgence that we have "done this to ourselves." With a normal metabolism, there is no way I could eat enough to maintain my weight.

I have always said the genetics I picked up in my family was what allowed us to live through the potato famine. Our genetics, which do not seem to be desirable now, have, in the past, kept our families going.


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## GWARrior (Sep 14, 2006)

Jane said:


> Okay, weight-reduction diets don't work long term.
> 
> Diets however, are everything that goes in our mouths. We all have diets, and some of us have dietary restrictions imposed by our bodies (my BAD relationship with dairy products).
> 
> ...




you have excellent points. but some of us ( I am, at least)are tired of being told that we have to maintain a certain fatness to be accepted on this site. very uncomfortable


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## Jane (Sep 14, 2006)

GWARrior said:


> you have excellent points. but some of us ( I am, at least)are tired of being told that we have to maintain a certain fatness to be accepted on this site. very uncomfortable


"We can make adjustments to our diets (everything that goes into our mouths) that can help us feel better."


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

GWARrior said:


> you have excellent points. but some of us ( I am, at least)are tired of being told that we have to maintain a certain fatness to be accepted on this site. very uncomfortable




I don't think anyone, including me, has ever asked anyone to be a certain weight to be included in the movement. The fat acceptance movement has many thin allies. All anyone has talked about here is asking people to not talk about dieting here. That's it!


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 14, 2006)

Some people aren't going to be happy with _any _type of food control discussion and will still deem it 'diet talk'. Others aren't happy with the thought of those discussions being restricted or eliminated. 

We've been through this before, about WLS, and creating another board seemed to quell that issue. Perhaps the addition of a Weight Management board will help everyone to relax and move on.

Or call it a Health Forum... and we can roll it into that same overall subject. Whatever it's called... we need it. And soon.


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## Tracyarts (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> When I and other fat acceptors talk about being fat, it doesn't include weight loss, because dieting for weight loss is inherently anti fat acceptance.
> 
> Scream away, now.



I'm not gonna scream, but do want to discuss this.

Since I am unable to maintain a liveable quality of life at my current weight due to obesity caused and exacerbated health and mobility problems, what do I have to sacrifice in order to meet the standards required to be welcome at your fat acceptance table?

- Do I play the shame game and totally self-censor and not verbalize whatsoever the things I have to do to improve my health and extend my lifespan and enrich my life quality? Because what I have to do to help and nurture myself is offensive to you and your ilk? Because my fat experience is not your fat experience, it is offensive and just not welcome in a fat acceptance venue? My tough luck, I suppose... I'm not the *right* kind of fatty to be accepted by the fat accepting fatties. 

- Do I "take one for the team" and settle for the pharmaceutical and assistive technology route and learn to be okay with the side effects and limitations of such weight-sparing methods of addressing the health and mobility problems? Even though I am still suffering and declining, I am on agenda with the anti weight loss crowd, so therefore I have a place at the table? Is that my price to pay to continue to be welcome? 

- Do I just go away and deal with it on my own. Fat acceptance doesn't want me because my fat is killing my body and soul and the meds and assistive technology to manage it is not enough. The diet groups don't want me because my goal weight is still within the realm of obesity and I refuse to starve myself. 

I am damned if I do, damned if I don't. Your brand of fat acceptance is ONLY for those lucky enough to not or to not yet have developed obesity caused or exacerbated health and mobility problems. Or for those who are able to manage them successfully with drugs and assistive technology alone. 

Sorry, if I decline the invitation, but a place at your table is not worth the cost of admission. 

Tracy


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> That's your belief - and that's fine. But you don't get to decide what size acceptance is for anyone else.




I'm going by the policy statement established by NAAFA:




> Since reducing diets rarely achieve permanent weight loss and can result in negative health consequences, since laws and regulations protecting the consumer are nonexistent or remain unenforced, and since people undertaking diets are rarely given sufficient information to allow them to give true informed consent, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance strongly discourages participation in
> weight-reduction dieting.



http://www.naafa.org/documents/policies/dieting.html


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> We've been through this before, about WLS, and creating another board seemed to quell that issue. Perhaps the addition of a Weight Management board will help everyone to relax and move on.



Except that it was established as a weight loss controversy board, and now it is used as a weight loss discussion board. Which is actually even worse than diet talk, in my opinion. If I had to choose between them. Which I don't.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

Tracyarts said:


> - Do I play the shame game and totally self-censor and not verbalize whatsoever the things I have to do to improve my health and extend my lifespan and enrich my life quality? Because what I have to do to help and nurture myself is offensive to you and your ilk? Because my fat experience is not your fat experience, it is offensive and just not welcome in a fat acceptance venue? My tough luck, I suppose... I'm not the *right* kind of fatty to be accepted by the fat accepting fatties.



No, you stay here and talk about whatever, and the fat acceptance fatties have one less place to go. Which is cool for me, I guess. I'm more into animal rescue right now than fat acceptance. As bad as the politics are in animal rescue, at least we all have the same end goals and I can see myself making a measurable difference, even if it is just one animal at a time. I've been in fat acceptance for 10 years and the only measurable differences I can see are that 1. The University of Texas has anti size discrimination in its hiring policies now and 2. There are lots more fat porn sites on the Internet.

But it isn't all about me, and it is a shame that there is one less site on the Internet that is free of triggering diet talk for the people who need one to visit.


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## Dibaby35 (Sep 14, 2006)

Well someone needs to make a decision. Cause I feel intimidated as to what I can and cannot say here. Which I HATE that I have to monitor myself. I just wanna feel warm and coozy with ya all and have a good time.


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I'm going by the policy statement established by NAAFA:


Naafa also doesn't speak for me. I'm not a member, nor do I plan to be. Their policies do not extend beyond their own doors, and to say that it should be adopted here - and by everyone that visits here - is almost comical, considering past associations.



moonvine said:


> Except that it was established as a weight loss controversy board, and now it is used as a weight loss discussion board. Which is actually even worse than diet talk, in my opinion. If I had to choose between them. Which I don't.


Actually, it was established as a _surgery _controversy board - specific to weight loss through surgery. That does not encompass all methods of weight control and health related issues. Under the current board title, they don't belong on that board, and people looking for that kind of support won't find it.



moonvine said:


> at acceptance fatties have one less place to go


Why does it have to be all or nothing for you? Why isn't it okay that we have a separate board to discuss things that are part of our lives? I haven't seen you (or anyone else, for that matter), railing against the WLS board, and it's been here for a while now. I think you've even posted on it. I don't understand why it has to be your way or the highway. And I don't understand *why* people with opposing views are told that they (meaning - being able to post as they choose, including about weight control) don't belong, anywhere, on this website. To use the cliche... how is that acceptance?


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

SamanthaNY said:


> Naafa also doesn't speak for me. I'm not a member, nor do I plan to be. Their policies do not extend beyond their own doors, and to say that it should be adopted here is almost comical, considering past associations.



I'm not saying it should be adopted here. They pretty much are the fat acceptance movement, though. Well, and ISAA, but ISAA has a much smaller presence. NAAFA continues to be the only group who is actually doing anything bout fat acceptance. 



> Actually, it was established as a _surgery _controversy board - specific to weight loss through surgery. That does not encompass all methods of weight control and health related issues. Under the current board title, they don't belong on that board, and people looking for that kind of support won't find it.



Yes, I mistyped. I meant WLS controversy board. Not WLS support board. WLS controversy board. 





> Why does it have to be all or nothing for you? Why isn't it okay that we have a board to discuss things that are part of our lives? I haven't seen you (or anyone else, for that matter), railing against the WLS board, and it's been here for a while now. I think you've even posted on it. I don't understand why it has to be your way or the highway.



I didn't rail against it in its original incarnation because it was, in fact, for controversy. I'm sorry you don't understand why I need to have a weight loss free space. I don't understand why people need to take their diet talk onto a fat acceptance board. I guess we are both not going to understand each other.


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## Tina (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just "get over" something because you start typing in all caps. When I and other fat acceptors talk about being fat, it doesn't include weight loss, because dieting for weight loss is inherently anti fat acceptance.
> 
> Scream away, now.



Kelley, that is your opinion, and Brian's, and NAAFA's, and nothing more. NAAFA hasn't represented me for a long time, and they do not own the name Fat Acceptance. NAAFA does not get to definte what Fat Acceptance is; they are merely one group in support of it. Because if losing weight for health and mobility's sake makes a person whose life, no matter else what one has done, antithetical to fat acceptance, that isn't Fat Acceptance, that is Fat Nazism.


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## Brenda (Sep 14, 2006)

Moonvine,

I can certainly understand you not wanting to be around diet "talk", sure it can be maddening to listen to a group of co workers talk about what they don't eat and how fat and disgustiing they are, when they are not even fat. But someone saying I no longer eat whatever I want because it causes me to gain weight or I had to adjust my eating because I was 500lbs and could barely walk is not "diet" talk but "reality" talk.

I am glad you enjoy good health and hope you will continue to do so. Many fat people are blessed with health and I say if it aint broke don't fix it! 

The one thing that I am confused by is that NFA advocates dieting but calls it something else and you were okay with that. Restrictive eating is dieting anyway you slice it. 

Brenda


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 14, 2006)

Yeah, it doesn't seem like we can understand each other. 

Fat peole come in so many shapes, sizes, backgrounds, races. We have different genetics, different health problems, different lifestyles, different opinions, different needs. 

We come here for all sorts of reasons. I hate porn. I avoid the paysite board b/c of that. I don't bash those who like it. That's their thing. I can take what I need and leave the rest. From my understanding, Dimensions was created for those who want to see naked fat ladies. NOT a fat acceptance site. It changed. It is still changing. Open your mind. Accept those who are not yet where you are and allow them to grow. Who knows, maybe one day I'll feel the exact same way you do about weight loss. Not today. Today, it is quite necessary. 

In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"
Diversity is beauty.
I'm hungry.

P.S. I have given out too much rep in the past 24 hours. So many good posts, so little rep permission.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

Brenda said:


> The one thing that I am confused by is that NFA advocates dieting but calls it something else and you were okay with that. Restrictive eating is dieting anyway you slice it.
> 
> Brenda



I've never seen NFA advocate dieting. I don't read every post that is posted here, however.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

Tina said:


> Kelley, that is your opinion, and Brian's, and NAAFA's, and nothing more. NAAFA hasn't represented me for a long time, and they do not own the name Fat Acceptance. NAAFA does not get to definte what Fat Acceptance is; they are merely one group in support of it. Because if losing weight for health and mobility's sake makes a person whose life, no matter else what one has done, antithetical to fat acceptance, that isn't Fat Acceptance, that is Fat Nazism.



That's one of the reasons I don't think this movement will ever go anywhere, and that's a shame.

Animal rescue starts from the belief that all life has value, and we should save as many lives as we responsibly can. I think that would be agreed on by the vast majority of animal rescuers. We don't always agree on how many is responsible, and which ones to save, and how to do it, and a bunch of other stuff. But there is a strong core belief there backing us up.

Fat acceptance seems to have as many definitions as there are people. If we can't agree on what we should be doing, I am not sure how we are ever going to be effective at doing anything.


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## Dibaby35 (Sep 14, 2006)

If I wanted to go to the NAAFA boards I would...but this isn't NAAFA right?


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

Dibaby35 said:


> If I wanted to go to the NAAFA boards I would...but this isn't NAAFA right?




No, but it does purport itself to be a fat acceptance site.


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## Tina (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> That's one of the reasons I don't think this movement will ever go anywhere, and that's a shame.


I think NAAFA never went anywhere because first they were diverted by socializing at the expense of political action through changing laws, and now because they are so far away from what most people want to see in a FA group that they are a sub-subculture. It had promise, but now they just look by a bunch of Wann Whackos.

Any group that marginalizes its own members because they want to save their own lives has a terminal disease, IMO, and cannot live. Nor should it, again, IMO.


> Animal rescue starts from the belief that all life has value, and we should save as many lives as we responsibly can. I think that would be agreed on by the vast majority of animal rescuers. We don't always agree on how many is responsible, and which ones to save, and how to do it, and a bunch of other stuff. But there is a strong core belief there backing us up.


Ironic that animal life has value, and that those lives should be saved, but if a fat person is trying to save her/his own life by losing weight, even sanely, that is unacceptable and that member must be judged and marginalized. 


> Fat acceptance seems to have as many definitions as there are people. If we can't agree on what we should be doing, I am not sure how we are ever going to be effective at doing anything.


First of all, I don't see "as many definitions as there are people," but even if that is true, unless it goes in a direction that makes a real difference in people's lives politically, it's helpful, but ultimately it is not doing its job, IMO. Dimensions makes a difference in people's lives emotionally and in how we feel about ourselves, but something like NAAFA should be changing laws, or it is not doing it's job, IMO.


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## activistfatgirl (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> That's one of the reasons I don't think this movement will ever go anywhere, and that's a shame.
> 
> Animal rescue starts from the belief that all life has value, and we should save as many lives as we responsibly can. I think that would be agreed on by the vast majority of animal rescuers. We don't always agree on how many is responsible, and which ones to save, and how to do it, and a bunch of other stuff. But there is a strong core belief there backing us up.
> 
> Fat acceptance seems to have as many definitions as there are people. If we can't agree on what we should be doing, I am not sure how we are ever going to be effective at doing anything.



Moonvine, you eat meat right? As an animal rights advocate also, I take exception to the fact that you rescue some animals but eat others. Now, let's apply this example to Dimensions. 

We do not always agree on every part of the movement/worldview, etc, but we can separate out some things. I'd do anything you asked me to support Austin Siamese rescue regardless of our political differences, and I would ask you that consider supporting folks here who need to talk with other fat people about how to control their weight. If it was in a separate forum, we could easily keep the rest of the board "diet talk" (though I disagree it is) free. 

It is largely impossible to come to consensus on issues that affect us so close to home. But I'm very concerned that us fatties don't have elsewhere to turn when neeeding to talk about wellness and fitness, and a sep. board on Dims could be that place.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Moonvine, you eat meat right? As an animal rights advocate also, I take exception to the fact that you rescue some animals but eat others. Now, let's apply this example to Dimensions.



Yeah, I can see that. My best friend takes exception to it too. But we both feed our cats meat. 



> We do not always agree on every part of the movement/worldview, etc, but we can separate out some things. I'd do anything you asked me to support Austin Siamese rescue regardless of our political differences, and I would ask you that consider supporting folks here who need to talk with other fat people about how to control their weight. If it was in a separate forum, we could easily keep the rest of the board "diet talk" (though I disagree it is) free.
> 
> It is largely impossible to come to consensus on issues that affect us so close to home. But I'm very concerned that us fatties don't have elsewhere to turn when neeeding to talk about wellness and fitness, and a sep. board on Dims could be that place.



Man, this is hard. You're asking me to support people in doing something I believe with all my heart will, at the end of the day, more than likely physically harm them. I'm not sure that I can cosign that. I can think about it, but I am just not sure I can go along with it.

Really, the only reason I have been here is because ...well, I don't want to say there was a rule about it, because I don't think there was, but dieting just wasn't discussed in the past. If I go to a new board and find that they allow diet talk, I leave, because that's not a place for me. I don't go on there and complain because they allow it. I just leave. So I am kind of violating my principles by being here, but this was a safe place for me for a long time and I'm kind of sad to see it become a place that isn't so safe anymore.

I love to talk about wellness and fitness, but in my mind, dieting encompasses neither of those.


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## activistfatgirl (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Yeah, I can see that. My best friend takes exception to it too. But we both feed our cats meat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My cat is a meat eater, too!

I don't have a response yet. I'm just thinking...


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## activistfatgirl (Sep 14, 2006)

I did want to acknowledge what Moonvine said about how Dims has been historically. I totally get that ususally it just isn't talked about. I'm not sure there's ever been a written rule, or if its just how it has been? Just want to note that since I'm newer than she and I respect that.

If it stays that way, ok. Ultimately we need to carve out a fat positive, size acceptance totally rad piece of the net that is for open and frank health discussions, including positive talk of weight loss for those who really need it for health not cosmetic reasons, how to do that without creating a yo-yo, how to increase mobility through exercise, how to gain better wellness through better nutrition or diet (food choices). Maybe it already exists. Or maybe its begging to be created.


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## NFA (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I've never seen NFA advocate dieting. I don't read every post that is posted here, however.



That's because I never have. The notion that I simply "called it something else" is a farce. Health at Any Size is not a diet approach. It rejects weight loss as a "treatment" and seeks to serve the health and well-being of ALL people without weight stigmatization. Its not anti-excercise or pro-gluttony. It rejects the assertion of diet promoters that they have exclusive rights to the word "healthy". The diet industry has succeeded very well in encouraging disordered eating and disordered relationships with food among fat and thin people alike. We need to stop this. For the health of everyone. The "treatment" of weight reduction has been an epic failure. We can best serve the health of all people by encouraging weight acceptance. Hating fat just doesn't work. Its easy to induce momentary weight reduction through the diet industry's means. But as the saying goes: "Losing weight is as easy as holding your breath. Keeping it off is as easy as continuing to hold your breath." The diet industry has been very successful at getting people to internalize the failures of diets. Its always a lack of personal will power. People are just "afraid" to lose weight. You need to "want it" bad enough. The absurdity of these excuses should be readily apparent, but a $40 Billion industry can do a lot to shape people's perceptions. Even if they eventually do blame the diet, its isolated. It was just *that* diet. Never are people allowed to call into question the viability of a treatment option which fails 99% of the time. That's not a lack of willpower. The willpower of fat people is positively herculean. To diet again and again without sustained success requires tremendous will, but it is all based on a lie. The diet industy has failed. Their treatment has failed and they have failed fat people. No one should be shamed or intimiated from saying so. The status quo is a powerful force, but its down such a disheartening diservice to fat people that it needs to be fought. No matter how futile it might seem. No matter how self-righteous and certain the opposition. I don't think dieting is evil and I certainly don't think dieters are evil. But I do think dieting is wrong. And I'll stand up and let my beliefs be heard. The harm done by our culture's singular obsession with eliminating fat people is profound and frightening. I will stand up as an act of conscience for what I believe. And I will never feel sorry for that. And I will never stay silent because others will disagree. They've a right to their opinion, but I most certainly have a right to mine as well.


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## moonvine (Sep 14, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> I did want to acknowledge what Moonvine said about how Dims has been historically. I totally get that ususally it just isn't talked about. I'm not sure there's ever been a written rule, or if its just how it has been? Just want to note that since I'm newer than she and I respect that.
> 
> If it stays that way, ok. Ultimately we need to carve out a fat positive, size acceptance totally rad piece of the net that is for open and frank health discussions, including positive talk of weight loss for those who really need it for health not cosmetic reasons, how to do that without creating a yo-yo, how to increase mobility through exercise, how to gain better wellness through better nutrition or diet (food choices). Maybe it already exists. Or maybe its begging to be created.




Hey AFG,

I am not sure. I know Conrad used to not allow political talk. I do not know about diet talk. I just remember it not being talked about much if at all. This is years and years ago, when we were on the old message board system. Conrad then had an association with NAAFA and that might have made a difference as well.


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## Brenda (Sep 14, 2006)

""No matter how self-righteous and certain the opposition. ""

Perhaps you should mull this over and see how it applies to you.

No one here advocated joining Jenny Craig or supporting the diet industry in anyway. You suggested not eating too much cake and eating instead fruits and vegetables. You also stated that the longer you stayed away from cake the easier it would be come to resist it (suggesting there would be some feeling od deprivation initially but that it would pay off). Once you make a list of what foods you should eat and which ones to avoid it is a diet. 

Most of the fat people that I know that have lost a significant amount of weight and kept it off did not follow a fad diet or a traditional weight loss diet. They recognized that restricting calories excessively or making foods good or bad was crazy making and uneffective. Instead they basically did what you suggested and ate less sweets and more whole foods. They lost weight following the very diet you outlined. 

Any more helpful diet tips?


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## activistfatgirl (Sep 14, 2006)

Anyone get the feeling that more of us here actually agree with each other than disagree, we're just using different words?


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## Tina (Sep 14, 2006)

Yeah. Ideology can be a real problem.

Actually, NFA, I have used what you have outlined to lose weight. It is not a diet, it is eating healthfully.

And while being healthy at any size is an admirable goal, some sizes are just too large for some to be able to live a healthy life. That's a fact.

Diets suck, but eating right is a good thing. Weightloss can result from that, especially when combined with exercise, which also promotes a healthy fat body. So where are we here?


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## SamanthaNY (Sep 14, 2006)

> So where are we here?


I feel like we're getting a better understanding of things between all those in the discussion (that's my hope). The questions seem to be: 

- will Conrad continue to permit discussion of health issues, including weight loss for health reasons
- Can those threads be housed on a new forum board
- Will those that oppose such discussions accept that new board, and let it exist uninterrupted*
- Will everyone then feel comfortable enough to stay on the site


*meaning, without active_ disruptive _opposition intended to impede responses

Additions? Corrections? Comments?


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 14, 2006)

I personally dont like feeder discussions, just can't get my head wrapped around that concept at all. So when I see a thread that is talking about feeding I just dont read it or post in it (with the exception of once or twice I think) but it wasn't to post that hey I dont like it so you guys shouldn't post about it!! 

So how about for those people who dont like diet discussions, you just don't go into those threads. If it bothers you that much just dont read it. 

I'm neither for nor against dieting, I could stand to lose about 100 pounds and I hope that I do. So I hope that people do still continue to feel comfortable to post about how they've lost weight in a healthy way, because I'm certainly there reading them. If those healthy discussions are out there maybe someone who's new to the site and is killing themselves through all the unhealthy fad diets reads a thread about a healthful way to lose weight how can that hurt?


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## mossystate (Sep 14, 2006)

I have this sneaky suspicion that if we get our OVERDUE health board here at Dims, that it will NOT become a place where people go to talk about how they used to weigh a whopping 145 pounds, but now are down to an 'acceptable' 124.

I have NEVER felt an oppressing presence of 'diet' talk out here.I was called a bitch and a troll for bringing up the issue of force and weight gain, and now, just by some people wanting to have a supportive place to discuss ALL the options open to them in order to obtain better mobility..et..etc..they are being called fat-haters and against size-acceptance.

If some of you claim to love Dimensions sooooo much..and many of the people here..then maybe have a bit more faith in what they(us) want to see happen out here, and what never crosses our minds.

I honestly do not see what the hell the fuss is all about.There is no such thing as Nirvana, so hows about we not be so afraid...and...'wellness'?..if you don't think there will be 'diet' talk when talking about wellness.....splitting SO many short ones.


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## Miss Vickie (Sep 14, 2006)

moonvine said:


> No, you stay here and talk about whatever, and the fat acceptance fatties have one less place to go. Which is cool for me, I guess. I'm more into animal rescue right now than fat acceptance. As bad as the politics are in animal rescue, at least we all have the same end goals and I can see myself making a measurable difference, even if it is just one animal at a time. I've been in fat acceptance for 10 years and the only measurable differences I can see are that 1. The University of Texas has anti size discrimination in its hiring policies now and 2. There are lots more fat porn sites on the Internet.



Or maybe there's a third option. We all talk and listen to each other and be respectful of each other's life experiences. That maybe, just maybe, we accept that what works for Traci doesn't work for Moonvine, or BoBabe or Vickie, or whatever. But that, regardless of the path each of us chooses, we support each other to make the best decisions for our own bodies.

Ya think maybe that's possible?


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## lemmink (Sep 14, 2006)

It's funny, but it's only after coming to Dimensions that I discovered I'm completely against Size Acceptance. :doh: I guess this thread and one or two others have taught me a lesson.

While my opinion doesn't count for much, what with being a newb and all, I think it's weird not to have a Health forum when it seems to be something that's so evidently preying on a lot of people's minds. Anyway, at Dimensions the very strict SA folk already have to deal with the WLS people, feeder/feedees, and an entire library of kinky sex tales, so having a Health forum should really be the least of their worries.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 15, 2006)

I know that changing my eating habits and engaging in moderate physical activity has done well for me. I fear doing any more than that though. To do nothing at all is not responsible for any human, fat or thin. But I've seen people go all the way out on a limb to extreme measures for weight loss, they do well for a while and then the weight begins to come back - rapidly. I don't know why, the metabolism catches up or they are unable to maintain the verve that they once had. The rapid weight gain takes it's toll on the body and they wind up worse off than they were before and worse than they would have been had they stuck to a more moderate simple approach.

I don't think anyone can convince me to lose more than a few pounds. Weightloss really does scare me. My stomach drops a little when I see other people do it because immediately I think of the emotional and physical suffering they may undergo when they are no longer able to maintain an artificial lifestyle. If I weighed 150 pounds more I might feel differently but it still brings me back to the idea that no one knows what the long term effects of weight loss is on people and I have to ask myself if short term relief would be worth possible long term repercussions. The answer may be yes but I'm hoping I never have to ask myself that question at all.

EDIT: Man! I didn't read all the slam dancing in here before I posted this. I'd better catch up.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 15, 2006)

We are already being accused, by people outside the movement, of turning a blind eye towards health. Now I know that we can be fat and healthy, but we should all agree to allow each other to pursue good health. However, if the people on these boards are afraid to pursue good health, because of the off chance they might lose weight and offend people on these boards, where is the size acceptance there? Note when I am talk about dieting I am just refering to cutting back on sugar, junk food and doing more execrising. 

Can't we tell the difference between lossing weight to fit the society's ideal body weight and lossing weight just so they can be more mobile?

I do agree with lemmink that we still need to discuss if feeders and feedee fit into SA, and if so how.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 15, 2006)

No, we can't. We can't tell just by looking at someone and tell if they've lost weight through sensible methods or if they are doing something extreme. At the same time, should anyone be required to have to explain to people all day long, "My weight loss is natural. I'm not dieting. Please don't hurt me." there's no solution. You can't stop people from being bugged out by weight loss or from doing things to make themselves better. 




EtobicokeFA said:


> We are already being accused, by people outside the movement, of turning a blind eye towards health. Now I know that we can be fat and healthy, but we should all agree to allow each other to pursue good health. However, if the people on these boards are afraid to pursue good health, because of the off chance they might lose weight and offend people on these boards, where is the size acceptance there? Note when I am talk about dieting I am just refering to cutting back on sugar, junk food and doing more execrising.
> 
> Can't we tell the difference between lossing weight to fit the society's ideal body weight and lossing weight just so they can be more mobile?
> 
> I do agree with lemmink that we still need to discuss if feeders and feedee fit into SA, and if so how.


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 15, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> No, we can't. We can't tell just by looking at someone and tell if they've lost weight through sensible methods or if they are doing something extreme. At the same time, should anyone be required to have to explain to people all day long, "My weight loss is natural. I'm not dieting. Please don't hurt me." there's no solution. You can't stop people from being bugged out by weight loss or from doing things to make themselves better.



And that is why we can't judge someone as a traitor to SA, simply because they appeared to have lose some weight here or there.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 15, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> And that is why we can't judge someone as a traitor to SA, simply because they appeared to have lose some weight here or there.



Speaking only for myself I sometimes get a little restless when weight loss talk comes about. I've seriously had weight loss rammed down my throat all my life and it has caused me nothing but grief and suffering. I found what works for me and I'm satisfied, yet every day I face people who look at me and assume I'm living in denial or I have to get into a weight program or I'm lazy or whatever. I have to fight hard to stay the course and resist the fear mongering. Dimensions always felt like the place I can go where no one was going to do that. I can see how people in my circumstance might feel protective or even scared to have weight loss discussed here. 

At the same time there are people who are still looking. There aren't a lot of resources in the area of fat wellness. Certainly Jenny Craig won't fund any so why not an area where people can share what they know or what they've learned where their experiences will be respected and taken into consideration? I don't see anything wrong with it. I probably wouldn't be a frequent visitor but still, a place like that should be made available for people who need it.

On the other hand, people who don't need it won't be in there. People who've quietly found what works won't have any desire to hang out in such a forum and talk about it all the time. My fear is that the only people in there would be people who need help and people with an agenda to sell.


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## MoonGoddess (Sep 15, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I don't fear it - I KNOW it.
> 
> Though I do not struggle at this weight, other than romantically, I certainly don't want to gain any more, which would be the end result of a diet.
> 
> Great topic! Thanks!




_I agree with Moonvine... and like her I know that if I "diet" the end result would be weight gain. I accept myself at this weight. If my health began to fail as a result of my weight, I'd try to do something smart about it. Like walking more, or watching what I ate more closely.

I try to eat as healthy and balanced a diet as my budget will allow me. By that same token, if I want a dish of ice cream, I will have it. All in moderation is my credo.
_


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## moonvine (Sep 15, 2006)

EtobicokeFA said:


> And that is why we can't judge someone as a traitor to SA, simply because they appeared to have lose some weight here or there.




And no one has ever said anything about doing that.

First of all, I'd be the last person to notice if anyone had lost weight, unless it was several hundred pounds. I just don't notice stuff like that.

All anyone asked (and I am clearly in the minority here, which is cool. BFB still doesn't allow diet talk, thank God) was to not talk about dieting here.

I never asked anyone not to diet, though I fear for people's health when they do so. If I walked by and saw someone slamming their head repeatedly into a brick wall, I'd be very tempted to say something - the same goes for dieting. But it is really none of my business unless/until they ask for advice, at which time I am likely to give it. 

And when you come here and ask for diet tips, you're soliciting my advice, being as how I am a member of this board and all.


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## Tina (Sep 15, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> On the other hand, people who don't need it won't be in there. People who've quietly found what works won't have any desire to hang out in such a forum and talk about it all the time. My fear is that the only people in there would be people who need help and people with an agenda to sell.


I disagree, Lilly. Some of us want to help others to find their own way. Once one has lived a life that was no life at all at some point on the scale (and for each person it is an individual thing), it can be painful to see someone else suffering, and the first instinct is to help and support. 

I have no agenda, and I promote no diets, as I have not used dieting to lose the weight I have lost and continue to slowly lose. When one is faced with numerous health problems, mobility that is almost nil, constant physical pain that turns into emotional pain, and the situation where doing anything -- even taking a shower -- is such a tremendous effort that it is overwhelming just how hard every single thing in life can be, change must occur, or deep depression sets in and one ceases to be who they are inside. One never forgets this. Ever. And while I do not at all support fad diets, I would be there, as I could, to support someone who is wanting to make changes in their lives and health through moving more and eating healthfully.

Aside from that, Conrad would never let the scenario in your last sentence that happen. Nor would any moderators, I'm sure.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 15, 2006)

Tina said:


> I disagree, Lilly. Some of us want to help others to find their own way. Once one has lived a life that was no life at all at some point on the scale (and for each person it is an individual thing), it can be painful to see someone else suffering, and the first instinct is to help and support.
> 
> I have no agenda, and I promote no diets, as I have not used dieting to lose the weight I have lost and continue to slowly lose. When one is faced with numerous health problems, mobility that is almost nil, constant physical pain that turns into emotional pain, and the situation where doing anything -- even taking a shower -- is such a tremendous effort that it is overwhelming just how hard every single thing in life can be, change must occur, or deep depression sets in and one ceases to be who they are inside. One never forgets this. Ever. And while I do not at all support fad diets, I would be there, as I could, to support someone who is wanting to make changes in their lives and health through moving more and eating healthfully.
> 
> Aside from that, Conrad would never let the scenario in your last sentence that happen. Nor would any moderators, I'm sure.



I'm speaking from my own perspective. I'm not one to want to talk about something like this day in and day out, repeating the same schpiel everytime someone new knocks on the door. I guess I just relate more to the idea that after a while most people will grow tired of it and quietly disappear leaving only the Herbalife, Weight Watchers and Amway salesmen behind and it becomes like any other 'health' forum with no one to whip out the lash if it gets out of hand. I'm sure Conrad would never let that happen but again, it's a fear of mine. 

I'm a different bird though, others would probably be more committed to it than I would.


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## Tina (Sep 15, 2006)

Well, same thing day in, day out would be boring, yes. But a place with good resources for fat people as relates to health, and people helping each other, wouldn't look anything like the scenaio of which you speak. That is something that we have all seen, and which frankly pushes all of my childhood diet buttons. Bleh.


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## activistfatgirl (Sep 15, 2006)

Good comments, ladies.

I have to say, I can only imagine how long the herbalifers and weight watchers drones would last around here. If you haven't noticed there's a lot of fiesty people on this board. God help them if we build it and they come.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 15, 2006)

activistfatgirl said:


> Good comments, ladies.
> 
> I have to say, I can only imagine how long the herbalifers and weight watchers drones would last around here. If you haven't noticed there's a lot of fiesty people on this board. God help them if we build it and they come.




haha Im sorta a weight watcher drone, lol....but then again I mix it with a little bit south beach and a little bit I eat what the hell I want when I want, lol..it works for me...and I have lasted around here...fact is...I like fiesty people, I like converstaion, debate, even controversy. I like what is going on here. And it hasnt gotten too emotional or out of hand. I can respect people not wanting diets thrown down their throats...I hella get that. But in the same token, I wish we had a safe place where us SS ladies could discuss healthy weight loss/exercise/health in general/life style changes to gain mobility tips...not a daily post about WW points, lol...if you get me.

I agree with moon...and I also agree with myself. I dont believe in cencorship..which I think is sorta what is happening accientally....but I also don't believe people should feel unsafe. I would love love LOVE a health board so that I could yap away about my health and tricks of being SS....and it would be a place moon could avoid without disruption. There has to be a way to make both sides happy. 

I for one am happy about the dialogue...like what IS SA? Why can we get fatter and be ok but not smaller? Those are excellent questions....ones I dont have answers to, but I like hearing other peoples thought about it.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 15, 2006)

I've seen so much crap in this world that nothing would surprise me at all anymore.  All you need is one person to come in talking about how they were a billiondy pounds and had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel and then along came Herbalife and now they've just finished climbing the kilamanjaro for the third straight year. You might be gritting your teeth but you can't keep people silent who've found something that works for them even if it is against everything you stand for as a human being. And those Herbalifers are a fairly fiesty lot too!

I'm not picking on Herbalifers, I'm just using it because it's handy. But any selective fix will do. It works for them and if it doesn't work well for you then it means you're just not applying it right. It smells the same and you can't kick 'em out.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 15, 2006)

LillyBBBW said:


> I've seen so much crap in this world that nothing would surprise me at all anymore.  All you need is one person to come in talking about how they were a billiondy pounds and had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel and then along came Herbalife and now they've just finished climbing the kilamanjaro for the third straight year. You might be gritting your teeth but you can't keep people silent who've found something that works for them even if it is against everything you stand for as a human being. And those Herbalifers are a fairly fiesty lot too!
> 
> I'm not picking on Herbalifers, I'm just using it because it's handy. But any selective fix will do. It works for them and if it doesn't work well for you then it means you're just not applying it right. It smells the same and you can't kick 'em out.



yeah I hear ya. To the diet world...you are either in or you are out....kinda like any religion....either you believe 100% or you are crap.

I thought you example was hella funny...true, but funny. Sometimes I watch dieting infomercials as if it were comdey central, lol. I dont believe everything...hardly anything the media spits at me...so I watch it like a train wreck on CNN, lol.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 15, 2006)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> yeah I hear ya. To the diet world...you are either in or you are out....kinda like any religion....either you believe 100% or you are crap.
> 
> I thought you example was hella funny...true, but funny. Sometimes I watch dieting infomercials as if it were comdey central, lol. I dont believe everything...hardly anything the media spits at me...so I watch it like a train wreck on CNN, lol.



I get pissed off at stories like that, for real. Seriously, I'm very happy with who I am and do quite well but there are times when I look at old pictures of myself and think, "Damn, I was way cuter then." A lot of people wish they had the body that they had when they were 22 but it's just not possible even with their best efforts. The best they can get is good health at any size but deep down in the nether regions of their heart they would love to be a size 26 again.

With that in mind it would be painful to listen to people go on about the success they are finding doing some thing that they've already done that's just enough to keep them out of the emergency room and that's about all. One minute they're at peace chatting about dead Russian philosophers and then out of the corner of their eye they catch a post titled, "Woohoo, I just got weighed!  :wubu: " It reopens all kinds of painful wounds that spell 'you are worthless and weak' or it may eventually drive you to want to try just one more time so you can begin a whole new era of certain disappointment. These things don't work the same for everybody but the mind and desire can be such tools in the right stage. 

I can see the need for a health forum but some people just aren't ready for that in their particular stage of life and it's not easy to just pretend they didn't see anything or to resist the temptation to look.


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## Brenda (Sep 16, 2006)

Lilly,

I understand what it is like to look back and remember looking better younger and smaller. It can be painful to hear someones success at times when certain things just have not worked for us.

It wasn't until my sister died (at at least 600lbs) that I came to the place where I was ready to face my old demons of my former life as a constant and failed dieter. I just could not accept that based on her longevity that I had ten years left. Everyone in my family who developed diabetes died in ten years and I was showing many signs of the disease. I knew that there had to be a middle ground between eating whatever I wanted with no regard and eating 500 calories a day. It was and is very scary at times to realize I just cannot eat whatever I want and maintain good health nor can I get caught up in the low calorie dieting that gives fast results that quickly disappear. 

For now I have dodged the diabetes bullet and I have to thank God for that. I do have to work on not getting caught up in thinking well if you can get to a 22, maybe you can get to an 18. I have to check myself and come back to the real reasons I made changes, for health and longevity not to be more traditionally attractive.

Brenda


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 16, 2006)

Congrats Brenda. I know 'exactly' where you are at right now. I will be knocking on wood all over the place for you as well. 

Both of my elderly parents have diabetes and high blood pressure. One is on the list for a kidney transplant that may happen this October and the other has survived colon cancer -- neither of them are morbidly obese. Both were thin in their youth but became pudgy, a little portly maybe as they got older but obese - no, and their approach to health at that time was to cut out salt and switch to margarine. Now in their old age they've lost lots of weight in their illness and it hasn't helped them or reversed things at all. I want to wail like a toddler when I see them they look so frail and drawn, not at all the people I remember growing up.

But you know, they look at me and think the exact same thing. They're terrified for my health because of what they are going through. A few of my other siblings are struggling with high blood pressure and other issues and they are not even past the 200 mark weight wise and one is younger than I am. On the other hand my family history is littered with stories of super fatties who died in less than perfect health from weight loss attempts. It seems that I have Forrest Gumped my way into a regime that keeps my stats in balance but I never would have gotten there if it weren't for talking with another fattie who was able to give some insight that I didn't have before. A health forum would be a major milestone but still, I'm not sure the aches around the weight loss issues will ever go away for some people. It depends on the environment they have to face from day to day and it may not be as easy for them to keep a clear perspective. Especially when some fattie announces that they lost 280 pounds on the C-food diet. They cut out all foods that begin with C and voila, the living nightmare is now complete for them. I can understand them not wanting to deal with all that, I'm at that place myself.





Brenda said:


> Lilly,
> 
> I understand what it is like to look back and remember looking better younger and smaller. It can be painful to hear someones success at times when certain things just have not worked for us.
> 
> ...


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## EtobicokeFA (Sep 16, 2006)

I agree Lilly, we need to figuare out how to keep weight loss aches out. Now that I think about it, I can see why Conard needs the time to plan it out. 

By the way, congradulations Brenda for dodging the bullet.


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