# BBW/SSBBW self defense...



## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 26, 2009)

There was a mention on the 2009 bash thread about bbw/ssbbw self defense. I have been practicing for about 7 years now, and have a decent handle on fitness and human physiology. There are unique advantages and disadvantages to being a larger person when it comes to defending yourself.
Most martial arts systems are effective if you are suited for them physically.
Although quite a few BBW's are nimble/athletic, I am going to aim this post towards those who aren't. Things to consider:

1.mobility 
2.strength 
3.balance
4.reflexes

The above mentioned characteristics vary greatly within our community.
That being said, here are some suggestions...

1. Talk to an Aikido, Judo, or Jujitsu practitioner. These arts have extensive locks and holds that don't require a lot of strength and athleticism, i.e wrist locks, small joint manipulation (fingers,etc). And they freakin' hurt! So it might get you out of hot water. They also most likely wont get you arrested like a more aggressive art like Karate or boxing, which tend to focus on striking.

2. Have a high level instructor assess your physical abilities. This could determine what techniques could work for you. We always say in martial arts that some of the most dangerous people come in unlikely packages. Feel free to pm me anytime if anyone has questions. I also know of many great places to learn on the east coast.


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## Ernest Nagel (Jan 26, 2009)

Of the several martial arts I've studied if you're just looking for pure threat neutralization Krav Maga is also well worth considering. It is not a sport and not contingent on athletic conditioning. Just straight up, no-nonsense self defense. :bow:


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 26, 2009)

i hear ya. Krav maga is the real deal.


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 26, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> i hear ya. Krav maga is the real deal.



Yep. It's hard to find a good place I heard, however. It's very realistic though, along with Haganah, and others such as combat hapkido.


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## olwen (Jan 26, 2009)

Something very simple that everyone can do is to scream very loudly the word "NO!" When you are in danger. Yelling "help" or "rape" won't do much since people don't really respond to that.

Also places to strike that most of us can reach and that don't require much skill are open palm hit to the ears, pushing in on someone's eye sockets, a knee to the groin, and an open palm slap to the solar plexis. 

Ladies always carry your bag over your shoulder (if possible) and in front of you. Walk where there are people and where the area is well lit. 

Perhaps an instruction book for self defense for women might be usefull even if bbws aren't in the diagrams. I might have one somewhere, and I can take a look and see what could be modified for bigger women.


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## Mini (Jan 26, 2009)

Judo, boxing, Muay Thai. Learn 'em, love 'em, live 'em.

No sugar-coating it, if you care about doing well in a self-defense situation, there's no getting around the fact that it takes hard work, dedication, and REALISTIC training. Anyone, ANYONE peddling quick fixes is full of shit.

And my best "bang for the buck" advice would be to get a gun, a CCL, and training as to how to draw it under stress, while being attacked, etc.. It's harder than it sounds. Again, there's no quick fix; even this "shortcut" will take a fair expenditure of time and energy.

Basically, there's no easy answer if it's a serious consideration.


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## Ernest Nagel (Jan 26, 2009)

Mini said:


> Judo, boxing, Muay Thai. Learn 'em, love 'em, live 'em.
> 
> No sugar-coating it, if you care about doing well in a self-defense situation, there's no getting around the fact that it takes hard work, dedication, and REALISTIC training. Anyone, ANYONE peddling quick fixes is full of shit.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree about "quick fixes" but I would also hate to discourage any woman from getting some basic self defense knowledge because she simply can't do the "hard work, dedication, and REALISTIC training" schtick. Big women and especially women with limited mobility are _at least_ as vulnerable as anyone else. Bad guys rely on the element of surprise and often close with their victims too quickly for a handgun or mace to come into play. Aggressive threat neutralization such as Olwen described is exactly what Krav Maga is about. I wouldn't feel comfortable advising a woman to carry a piece unless she also had the skills to break away from an assailant and use it. Just sayin'. :bow:


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## olwen (Jan 26, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> I don't disagree about "quick fixes" but I would also hate to discourage any woman from getting some basic self defense knowledge because she simply can't do the "hard work, dedication, and REALISTIC training" schtick. Big women and especially women with limited mobility are _at least_ as vulnerable as anyone else. Bad guys rely on the element of surprise and often close with their victims too quickly for a handgun or mace to come into play. Aggressive threat neutralization such as Olwen described is exactly what Krav Maga is about. I wouldn't feel comfortable advising a woman to carry a piece unless she also had the skills to break away from an assailant and use it. Just sayin'. :bow:



Also it's illegal in some places for anyone to carry concealed weapons even with a license unless you are a peace officer. Mace is probably good tho. Not sure about tazers.

My self dense book is buried in a box in my closet that is buried under other boxes and I just don't feel like digging it out. Too bad.

The thing tho that I remember most from the book were the bits about vocalizations. The books tells women not to be afraid to scream and yell because assailants usually don't expect that from us, and it slows them down a little.


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## LalaCity (Jan 26, 2009)

I carry pepper spray with me wherever I go. If I'm walking alone at night I keep it in my hand with my finger poised on the button. I've never had to use it, thankfully.

While I think it's definitely good to take some sort of self-defense class as a woman, I'm small, clumsy and not very strong and I have a really hard time envisioning myself overpowering a large male in any situation without some kind of weapon.


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 26, 2009)

lala,

Thats the thing, aikido,etc. were designed by smaller people to be able to defeat a larger foe by technique and leverage. I have some size, over 6ft, 200+lbs and fit. There were women who knew their stuff that had no prob taking me out, especially before I had an idea what I was doing.Pepper spray isn't a bad idea either. As far as overpowering a large male, do you think your whole body is stronger than his fingers? Or ears, nose, windpipe?,etc.


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 26, 2009)

also, in reference to "realistic training", taking it seriously is a must, and if you find a reputable instructor, you will not get babied. You will understand the technique from both ends. Once you feel a few even 50% force joint locks, you will get it, and when you become proficient enough, you will be confident enough to use those moves. Also, if you know anyone who is a police officer, they more than likely know how to handle themselves, so they would be a good person to ask. A good cop is always learning more to be a better one.


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## mossystate (Jan 26, 2009)

olwen said:


> The thing tho that I remember most from the book were the bits about vocalizations. The books tells women not to be afraid to scream and yell because *assailants usually don't expect that from us*, and it slows them down a little.



Yup. Yup. 

If a woman is feeling really uncomfortable, and we often dismiss what our gut is telling us, getting vocal might throw the would be assailant off kilter. Now, could be that we are wrong about intentions...HOWEVER...it is MUCH better to be alive and ok, than the alternative.

Too many women do not want to ' make waves ', or do not want to embarrass ourselves. I have removed myself from elevators, if I am feeling uncomfortable. I used to care what the man might think...no more. Decent men are ok with this, as they ' get it ', and some of them have their own ' ah-HA moments and will conduct themselves with more awareness and encourage other men to understand...and do the same. When I walk down a darkened street ( or, sometimes, even in daylight ), I have crossed to the other side, if any hairs start to tingle. I have also walked down the middle of streets, rather than be too close to parked cars. I try to remember to walk tall and look around. 


It is really important for women to learn to use their voices...whether it is to voice an opinion and not care about the nastiness that might be their reward...or when they are confronted with real or perceived physical threat. All this stuff is useful for any person who is getting grief for who they are. This is such a multi level problem. As for weapons, I have carried pepper spray, and I have carried a few other things in my purse ( by the way, not being so encumbered in some situations would be a good thing for women ).


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## olwen (Jan 26, 2009)

Just a weird anecdote:

Last week I had just said goodbye to my male friend after hanging out and went on my way to the bus stop. I was on a busy street around 11pm and I had that tingly hairs on the back of my neck feeling (like I felt like I'd never walked on that street before and I work in the area so it's a familiar street and shouldn't feel strange) but I just dismissed it and kept walking. I go to cross the street and four guys came up behind me and started doing...I don't know it was weird, one of them was in my face and the other one was trying to rub his ass against me. I'm sure they were all drunk too since they were also trying to hurl insults at me in some thick accent I could barely make out...anyway, I tried to move away and they followed me. I was starting to freak out a little, but I tried not to show it tho and I remembered about the vocalizations so I turned around to face all of them and started hurling insults at the one who had his hand on his dick. They were all so surprised I said anything that they all took a step back and just looked at me, so I took that moment to run across the street as fast as I could before the light changed again, and luckily a bus was pulling up to the curb and I just got on it. I didn't even care which one it was I just got on it and when I sat down I was shaking. 

I've been half wondering ever since then what would have happened if I hadn't opened my mouth and said something. Needless to say, I'm glad I spoke up cause it worked.


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## Fascinita (Jan 26, 2009)

Just had a weird feeling last week, walking home from work after dark. Turning the corner, saw a guy kind of turn with me and fall in step behind me, without passing me. I headed for lights and people quickly, but really was cursing myself that I'd tried to take a backstreet shortcut instead of the longer route on the main thoroughfare.

Every once in a while, I do terribly stupid things. It was at least a reminder of why it makes sense to be on the defensive.


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## Tooz (Jan 26, 2009)

I've always been somewhat strong, but this is why I am going to be weight training in the near future.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 26, 2009)

Fascinita said:


> Just had a weird feeling last week, walking home from work after dark. Turning the corner, saw a guy kind of turn with me and fall in step behind me, without passing me. I headed for lights and people quickly, but really was cursing myself that I'd tried to take a backstreet shortcut instead of the longer route on the main thoroughfare.
> 
> Every once in a while, I do terribly stupid things. It was at least a reminder of why it makes sense to be on the defensive.



I'm good for stopping right where I am and rummaging in my bag for imaginary keys/bus pass/cigarettes (even though I don't smoke) just to let the guy following me pass me if I'm nervous. I'll turn around on one foot and go back, act like I left something behind and leave him to move on someplace else. No one has ever followed me back. If a suspicious person approaches me and begins to step across that invisible threshold of personal space, straightening up and using a loud assertive voice will do. "Yo man, get up off me! You don't know me like that!" So far that has been all that's necessary. Nobody likes a scene and everybody likes to watch a fight so this kind of confrontation attracts attention immediately. It has never gone beyond any of these snenarios. *knocks on wood*


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## tonynyc (Jan 26, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> also, in reference to "realistic training", taking it seriously is a must, and if you find a reputable instructor, you will not get babied. You will understand the technique from both ends. Once you feel a few even 50% force joint locks, you will get it, and when you become proficient enough, you will be confident enough to use those moves. Also, if you know anyone who is a police officer, they more than likely know how to handle themselves, so they would be a good person to ask. A good cop is always learning more to be a better one.



*
IcemanVer2.0:

Realistic training is a must be it (Hapkido, Krav Maga, Kenpo Karate, JeetKunDo, Sambo,FAST).

Also self defense training gives one a different mindset (focus on awareness of youe environment). I guess with the use of joint locks ( Wally Jay JuJitsu-ChinNA or Aikido) yes 50% force on some holds can do some "hurt" ;but, in a street situation it's safe to "soften up" someone before applying any joint lock. 

When I was in college I had the pleasure of training with the late Charles Nelson who use to have a self defense school on 72nd Street Between Broadway and Columbus Avenue. He taught Mongolian Wresting and these were some of his points...

Charles Nelson had five main principles of Chinese Mongolian Wrestling:

1. Never take a fighting stance. Pretend to yield. Then attack suddenly without warning.

2. Never go to the ground.

3. A man's legs are his foundation. Take the foundation out from under him and he cannot stand to fight.

4. An assailant's arms are like the tiller of a ship. Control his arm and you control the direction of his power and his ability to attack. 

5. Never place a restraining hold on an attacker without striking him first. Use edge-of-hand, open hand, heel-of-palm strikes to soften him up before attempting a wristlock or armlock.

Mr. Nelson also believed in keeping your techniques simple- an assault is so fast that it is easy to freeze up. 

 Charles Nelson Living Legend

*




olwen said:


> Also it's illegal in some places for anyone to carry concealed weapons even with a license unless you are a peace officer. Mace is probably good tho. Not sure about tazers.
> 
> My self defense book is buried in a box in my closet that is buried under other boxes and I just don't feel like digging it out. Too bad.
> 
> The thing tho that I remember most from the book were the bits about vocalizations. The books tells women not to be afraid to scream and yell because assailants usually don't expect that from us, and it slows them down a little.



*
Olwen:

The law is funny on the use of weapons- I guess it all depends cause anything can be a weapon (bookbag-cane-umbrella-newspaper)... I know that in NYC most martial arts store will not sell weapons of any kind (nunchukas- blades- sumari swords-ninja weapons) - and the less obvious (kubotans-escrima sticks)...

Can one learn self defense from a book or tape (yes and no) - the knowledge is good and as long as you keep your moves basic it should be ok...

*




Ernest Nagel said:


> I don't disagree about "quick fixes" but I would also hate to discourage any woman from getting some basic self defense knowledge because she simply can't do the "hard work, dedication, and REALISTIC training" schtick. Big women and especially women with limited mobility are _at least_ as vulnerable as anyone else. Bad guys rely on the element of surprise and often close with their victims too quickly for a handgun or mace to come into play. Aggressive threat neutralization such as Olwen described is exactly what Krav Maga is about. I wouldn't feel comfortable advising a woman to carry a piece unless she also had the skills to break away from an assailant and use it. Just sayin'. :bow:



*
Ernest:

Use of weapons is a touchy subject and it depends on a case by case scenario...

So true on the element of surprize and regarding mace- you could always run up agianst one individual where the spray has no effect. 
*



olwen said:


> Just a weird anecdote:
> 
> Last week I had just said goodbye to my male friend after hanging out and went on my way to the bus stop. I was on a busy street around 11pm and I had that tingly hairs on the back of my neck feeling (like I felt like I'd never walked on that street before and I work in the area so it's a familiar street and shouldn't feel strange) but I just dismissed it and kept walking. I go to cross the street and four guys came up behind me and started doing...I don't know it was weird, one of them was in my face and the other one was trying to rub his ass against me. I'm sure they were all drunk too since they were also trying to hurl insults at me in some thick accent I could barely make out...anyway, I tried to move away and they followed me. I was starting to freak out a little, but I tried not to show it tho and I remembered about the vocalizations so I turned around to face all of them and started hurling insults at the one who had his hand on his dick. They were all so surprised I said anything that they all took a step back and just looked at me, so I took that moment to run across the street as fast as I could before the light changed again, and luckily a bus was pulling up to the curb and I just got on it. I didn't even care which one it was I just got on it and when I sat down I was shaking.
> 
> I've been half wondering ever since then what would have happened if I hadn't opened my mouth and said something. Needless to say, I'm glad I spoke up cause it worked.



*
Olwen:
Very Scary scenario that you had to deal with since it concerns a possible multiple attack. You kept a very cool head in an extremely dangerous/stressful situation. 

*


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## olwen (Jan 26, 2009)

Tony, you're right about learning from books. You can only learn so much. I have enough martial arts books to fill up a huge box, and try as I might to learn from them, I just didn't get very far. So now those books just look cool on my bookshelf. 

Thanks. The whole incident just seems really strange to me tho. Nothing like that has ever happened to me before...like most of the time when a group of guys want to harrass me they do it from far away and it's just verbal stupidity you know. I can give them the finger and keep walking and they never follow. That's what I'm used to. I've never been ganged up on before. 

I guess this is just yet another example of how being fat isn't a guarantee of protection from sexual harrassment; and also a reminder to pay attention to everything that's going on around you even on familiar populated and well lit streets. 

And hence this thread.


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## tonynyc (Jan 26, 2009)

olwen said:


> Tony, you're right about learning from books. You can only learn so much. I have enough martial arts books to fill up a huge box, and try as I might to learn from them, I just didn't get very far. So now those books just look cool on my bookshelf.
> 
> Thanks. The whole incident just seems really strange to me tho. Nothing like that has ever happened to me before...like most of the time when a group of guys want to harrass me they do it from far away and it's just verbal stupidity you know. I can give them the finger and keep walking and they never follow. That's what I'm used to. I've never been ganged up on before.
> 
> ...



*
I think this thread is a good idea and great for folks be it BBW/BHM/FA/FFA to share their experiences. 

The worse thing to deal with is amultiple gang attack and using discretion (as you've done) is the best way to deal with the scenario. 

I have found books and videos to be educational to a degree ;but, wht I have noticed in some martial art magazines and books when they show a certian techinque is that key elements are left out and certain applications may have to be modified when applied to the streets given the size/gender etc. of the assailant. How much force does one apply etc. etc. 

One disturbing trend (especially with the proliferation of Self Defense info) is filtering out the good techniquesfrom the bad. Some stuff can get you hurt. 

Look at this questionable Youtube videochoking self defense technique 

*


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 27, 2009)

Tony, all good points my friend. My emphasis on joint locks is not my own strength. My main areas are judo and muay thai. However, when I said 50% will make you uncomfortable, 100% could break the fragile bones in the fingers and hands. Some people are really tough, can take loads of punishment to certain areas, i.e. legs, midsection, even head shots. However, very few can withstand a forceful blow to vulnerable points like the eyes, nose, throat,ears. My main objective was to recommend an style for BBW's, the point was to find one that does not need high levels of agility and fitness. If the BBW is in good shape, then its gravy. If not, there should still be options.


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 27, 2009)

also, body type and physical attributes play a big role as to which techniques would work best. for example, a large, cumbersome person should not try any flying head kicks. However, having that weight will make you hard to control, and even if the person attacking is stronger, their lack of weight will make you harder to move around than vice versa. A smaller person has to rely on agility and razor sharp technique. Either way, like Tony said, keeping a cool head and using good judgment is huge.


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 27, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> also, body type and physical attributes play a big role as to which techniques would work best. for example, a large, cumbersome person should not try any flying head kicks. However, having that weight will make you hard to control, and even if the person attacking is stronger, their lack of weight will make you harder to move around than vice versa. A smaller person has to rely on agility and razor sharp technique. Either way, like Tony said, keeping a cool head and using good judgment is huge.



No one should try flying kicks unless they're fighting Shaq or Hong Man Choi , and they've got the skill to apply them. They're hard, unbalanced, and you can gather more power on the ground. 

Really it should be of a suggestion, because people do fight differently based on body type, but we all fight differently anyway. It doesn't mean x person can't do y, just that it may or may not be harder for them to learn. It's a guideline moreso than a rule.


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## tonynyc (Jan 27, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> Tony, all good points my friend. My emphasis on joint locks is not my own strength. My main areas are judo and muay thai. However, when I said 50% will make you uncomfortable, 100% could break the fragile bones in the fingers and hands. Some people are really tough, can take loads of punishment to certain areas, i.e. legs, midsection, even head shots. However, very few can withstand a forceful blow to vulnerable points like the eyes, nose, throat,ears. My main objective was to recommend an style for BBW's, the point was to find one that does not need high levels of agility and fitness. If the BBW is in good shape, then its gravy. If not, there should still be options.



*
My exposure to joint locks were limited and most of the times these holds were applied after an initial "strike" to "weaken" my resistance . I do agree that just by working out any folks of size would feel great and one should have options with whatever techniques is being used. 
*




Jon Blaze said:


> No one should try flying kicks unless they're fighting Shaq or Hong Man Choi , and they've got the skill to apply them. They're hard, unbalanced, and you can gather more power on the ground.
> 
> Really it should be of a suggestion, because people do fight differently based on body type, but we all fight differently anyway. It doesn't mean x person can't do y, just that it may or may not be harder for them to learn. It's a guideline moreso than a rule.



*
So true the same can be said on the application of certain self defense techniques- it's all a guideline and it's important to know the basics ;i.e.,(very easy for someone to break their hand if they throw a punch improperly).

And most High Kicks look good on TV or the movies and we all know what happened to Jean Claude VanDame  
*


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## MadeFA (Jan 27, 2009)

The first thing I have taught anyone is... don't let yourself be put into a position where screaming for help and calling 911 on your cell phone are not the best options that you have.


Example; Don't walk down that dark alley way...
Don't walk to your car alone if you can avoid it...
Basically; pretend you're in a real life thriller/horror movie and don't do anything that you would be "screaming" at the actors/actresses to not do.


A lot of things that have been said here are very helpful, I'd like to just really try to hammer these points home.


If you live a state where you're allowed to carry pepper spray, or a fire arm (or if you are licensed to do so) please remember that these weapons or "a weapon" not "your" weapon. "Your" weapon still works in the perps hands if they get it away from you.



No personal property is (in general) worth dying for (I have an Italian Horn that's been in my family for about 100 years.... I'd risk taking a bullet to protect it lol). :doh:


I do not mean to slander anyone; but the school that I attend runs women's and seniors SD classes... I think these classes can be very beneficial to larger people that may have some mobility issues.


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## tonynyc (Jan 27, 2009)

MadeFA said:


> If you live a state where you're allowed to carry pepper spray, or a fire arm (or if you are licensed to do so) please remember that these weapons or "a weapon" not "your" weapon. "Your" weapon still works in the perps hands if they get it away from you.
> 
> I do not mean to slander anyone; but the school that I attend runs women's and seniors SD classes... I think these classes can be very beneficial to larger people that may have some mobility issues.



*
Good points on the Pepper spray - have to look at all sides. 

What style deos your schoolteach? Do they advocate an eclectic form of martial arts? 
*


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## tonynyc (Jan 27, 2009)

The sad part about most martial arts is the lack of publicity on female participation & the lack of female students in some training centers. 

I think this sets up a misconception for many women to walk into a self defense ;but, this is often not the case and once you get over that initial introduction;but, most schools are great and welcome anyone. Also, 
it's good to be in a class with a mixture of students especially if you are learning self defense techniques. 

Now does one need a black belt to know self defense (yes/no) all depends what you are looking for. It's a journey and the more you learn each way and as MadeFA and others have said find what is best for you. 

I've listed some information on Rusty Kanakogi - a Judo pioneer and true inspiration. She has a dojo in Brooklyn. Rusty Kanakogi- Judo School Park Slope Brooklyn. 

=========================================================
_As you may have gathered from previous posts of mine, I think Rose James is legendary. I have another woman whom I think very highly of who was a Judoka, whose story is a lesson to us all in determination. Her name is Rusty Kanakogi. I reproduce here an extract from *Roy Inman's book "Judo for Women" (Crowood Press, 1987) *

"When in 1955 she finally managed to get an instructor to start teaching her judo, she discovered that she was the only woman among forty men. the handful of other women she met in new York practicing judo appeared to follow the Japanese tradition, and limited themselves to kata. This was not the Kanakogi style. She took part in inter club competitions, fighting against men, and doing well, and was predictably incensed that no competitions for women existed. So, she taped her breasts flat, cut her hair short, and entered the New York State YMCA Championships as a man, and won her weight category. When the news eventually leaked out, her victories were canceled, and her medal was taken away. As a result, officials quickly inserted "male" into the event title so that she could not enter again. That was 1958, and it was a decade before women's contests appeared as a regular feature. 
In 1962, she went to Japan to train, and was horrified at the limited practice she discovered in the women's section. After one week with the women, she became the first woman to be invited to practice with the men in the main dojo.

Both of these women inspire me because they didn't have a hissy fit about discrimination..they just got on and showed that they could do it. Can you believe that they stripped Rusty of her medals, even tho the rules didn't specify that one had to be male to enter. They'd never get away with that now, so we all have much to be grateful for from the pioneers like Rose and Rusty._

source:

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/female-fighters-talk/2449-role-models-who-inspires-you-2.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

*Rusty Kanakogi is Honored by Consulate General of Japan in NYC *

source:

http://www.ny.us.emb-japan.go.jp/en/c/japaninfo0812.html

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*Women only account for 10% of Judo Black Belts *

source:

http://home.kyodo.co.jp/modules/fstStory/index.php?storyid=412929

--------------------------------------------------------------

*Link to Martial Arts thread in the Dimensions Health Forum* 

 Martial Arts Anyone


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## katorade (Jan 27, 2009)

Another vote for krav maga. 

For women worried about their effectiveness due to their height or demure stature, krav maga was developed as a form of self defense for persons of ANY stature, male or female. The focus is to quickly and efficiently neutralize an attack to be able to escape. Unlike a lot of other martial arts, krav maga very specifically operates on the fact that there ARE NO rules, as in the person attacking you can and will fight dirty. There are varying degrees of usage, but all focus on a "strike and flight" basis and being able to subdue an attacker with a minimal amount of force.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 27, 2009)

MadeFA said:


> The first thing I have taught anyone is... don't let yourself be put into a position where screaming for help and calling 911 on your cell phone are not the best options that you have.
> 
> 
> Example; Don't walk down that dark alley way...
> ...



That is actually one of my biggest issues. I cannot run so escape would be impossible. I could be easily caught once my attacker recovers from a strike. At this point s/he will be angry enough to do something to seriously hurt me which could be done without having to maneuver my weight at all. Running away isn't going to happen so something like pepper spray probably wouldnt be enough.


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## tonynyc (Jan 27, 2009)

Some of you have mentioned the use of Pepper Spray - I have listed two sights below which explore the legal issuesPepper Spray-Local Lawsand
Legality and Use of Pepper Spray.

===========================================


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## olwen (Jan 27, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> Tony, all good points my friend. My emphasis on joint locks is not my own strength. My main areas are judo and muay thai. However, when I said 50% will make you uncomfortable, 100% could break the fragile bones in the fingers and hands. Some people are really tough, can take loads of punishment to certain areas, i.e. legs, midsection, even head shots. However, very few can withstand a forceful blow to vulnerable points like the eyes, nose, throat,ears. My main objective was to recommend an style for BBW's, the point was to find one that does not need high levels of agility and fitness. If the BBW is in good shape, then its gravy. If not, there should still be options.





TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> also, body type and physical attributes play a big role as to which techniques would work best. for example, a large, cumbersome person should not try any flying head kicks. However, having that weight will make you hard to control, and even if the person attacking is stronger, their lack of weight will make you harder to move around than vice versa. A smaller person has to rely on agility and razor sharp technique. Either way, like Tony said, keeping a cool head and using good judgment is huge.



This stuff is all great, but I think the thing you might be missing is that in general women are not taught to use their bodies the way boys are. Boys are expected to do team sports (read close contact/high impact) and girls who do want to do team sports still don't do the kind that require forceful body contact.

Women need to learn to not only be able to defend ourselves, but we have to learn to be physical if we are not used to it. So just saying use this hold, do that punch, ect is kind of beside the point. This stuff is awesome to know, but if a woman isn't used to that kind of physical contact, a class like that whose purpose is self defense, might not work so well. It's not just about body size, but about familiarity with that kind of body contact.

Don't get me wrong tho. I'm not saying women are incapable of fighting in close quarters, I just think the approach is a little...off balance.



LillyBBBW said:


> That is actually one of my biggest issues. I cannot run so escape would be impossible. I could be easily caught once my attacker recovers from a strike. At this point s/he will be angry enough to do something to seriously hurt me which could be done without having to maneuver my weight at all. Running away isn't going to happen so something like pepper spray probably wouldnt be enough.



This is def an issue. I couldn't outrun an attacker either, and I wouldn't feel comfortable engaging in some fist-i-cuffs either. You'd think our size would make it hard for us to be overpowered, but I know that isn't always going to be the case. Fear can paralyze especially if you're not used to fighting...I wouldn't be thinking about pinky fingers and wrists and indian burn or whatever, I'd be thinking about just how to get away - and not be followed. 


Seems to me that learning to get out of common attack holds and to incapacitate the attacker with minimal effort, and little fighting skill seems like the best approach for a self defense class.


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## Mini (Jan 27, 2009)

OK, see, this is what I meant. Someone's threatening to rape/rob/kill you, and you honestly think there's *any* way you can incapacitate him/her with minimal effort and a simple wristlock? That's fantasy, pure and simple.

THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS. Don't listen to *anyone* who would tell you otherwise.


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## LisaInNC (Jan 27, 2009)

When I took tae kwon do, I learned a punch that requires no power. Just basically snapping the wrist. It rocks and works very well. Also, when it was time to learn kicks, I laughed when he was kicking really high. I told him I could prolly kick someone kneecaps and he informed me that a kick to the kneecaps could work just as well as a kick to the head.


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## olwen (Jan 27, 2009)

Mini said:


> OK, see, this is what I meant. Someone's threatening to rape/rob/kill you, and you honestly think there's *any* way you can incapacitate him/her with minimal effort and a simple wristlock? That's fantasy, pure and simple.
> 
> THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS. Don't listen to *anyone* who would tell you otherwise.



A knee to the groin is minimal in comparison with some martial arts technique that takes years to master.

And you better believe that when you are in that kind of a situation - one that you are not used to, being able to think will be hard and remembering something simple might just save your life.


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## Mini (Jan 28, 2009)

olwen said:


> A knee to the groin is minimal in comparison with some martial arts technique that takes years to master.
> 
> And you better believe that when you are in that kind of a situation - one that you are not used to, being able to think will be hard and remembering something simple might just save your life.



Firing a gun is a simple task. Firing a gun when you've been smacked over the head with a brick and there's some hopped-up meth head beating the ever-loving shit out of you is not. See the difference?


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## Santaclear (Jan 28, 2009)

You guys should try Beatles _Sgt. Pepperspray._ (c)(p) 

View attachment pepperspray.jpg


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## thatgirl08 (Jan 28, 2009)

I did a self defense class, and I didn't find any of the moves hard at all and I don't think a lot of other BBW's would either. Most of it is just like, about hitting the right place and watching your surroundings and stuff.


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 28, 2009)

LisaInNC said:


> When I took tae kwon do, I learned a punch that requires no power. Just basically snapping the wrist. It rocks and works very well. Also, when it was time to learn kicks, I laughed when he was kicking really high. I told him I could prolly kick someone kneecaps and he informed me that a kick to the kneecaps could work just as well as a kick to the head.



He's right. Again, you don't need to kick someone in the head to take them down, and you really shouldn't even try unless you're skilled enough to apply it, and the opportunity arises. Kicks at the waist and below are effective if applied well too. The kneecaps, shin (Sciatic nerve), thigh, and even a liver shot are ideal hit points. 

If you ever want to learn high kicks, however: It just takes time. The ability to kick above your waist is a balance and strength issue before it's flexibility until you get really high. Their purpose for most isn't so much that you would want to hit that high anyway, but that kicking that high enhances kicking lower. That's a big concept behind it.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 28, 2009)

Mini said:


> OK, see, this is what I meant. Someone's threatening to rape/rob/kill you, and you honestly think there's *any* way you can incapacitate him/her with minimal effort and a simple wristlock? That's fantasy, pure and simple.
> 
> THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS. Don't listen to *anyone* who would tell you otherwise.





Mini said:


> Firing a gun is a simple task. Firing a gun when you've been smacked over the head with a brick and there's some hopped-up meth head beating the ever-loving shit out of you is not. See the difference?



I totally agree. People just do NOT understand can.not.run. Can't run. A sore knee to the groin or some other such move and then a shaky and frightened *lumber* on sore swollen ankles or a walker to get maybe 20, 30 feet away tops before s/he recovers and gives chase -- filled with hate and ready to break your fucking neck to keep you from escape. If I'm going to put somebody down I need to be sure they are going to stay there and not recover for a long time if at all. Either that or just let them rape/maim/kill me. Not an option. If there are other options I'd be delighted to consider them but being slashed with a razor blade or getting a tire iron to my temple is unappealing.


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 28, 2009)

to those who can't run, knee to the groin isn't always the best way to go. Your going to unfortunately have to get real dirty, i.e. incapacitating techniques like eye gouging, ripping off an ear, throat shots. I know that sounds nasty, but if you truly are in a really dangerous situation, it has to be done. Krav Maga will show you that kind of stuff. I have never taken it myself, but from what I hear, its pretty brutal. In addition, keeping your head cool is vital, and no one should expect to come out unscathed. That is hard for most people to wrap their head around.Every physical altercation I have ever had when I had to use something nasty (its only been a few times thank god) I was banged up, but I came out alive. Also, as someone else mentioned (i think it was olwen or tony), screaming and making a lot of noise is a good one. Having a weapon is a great equalizer, but most real thugs can tell right away if you intend to use it, and take you anyway. And, if you do shoot someone, there are a ton of obvious legal ramifications to worry about, so if you bring it out, keep that in mind.


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 28, 2009)

oh, and about the wristlocks, minimal pressure is only for training. Doing it for real is going to mess them up, and buy you a little time to take care of business. And I feel everyone should work out to the best of their ability. More strength = life is easier.


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## tonynyc (Jan 28, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> to those who can't run, knee to the groin isn't always the best way to go. Your going to unfortunately have to get real dirty, i.e. incapacitating techniques like eye gouging, ripping off an ear, throat shots. I know that sounds nasty, but if you truly are in a really dangerous situation, it has to be done. Krav Maga will show you that kind of stuff. I have never taken it myself, but from what I hear, its pretty brutal. In addition, keeping your head cool is vital, and no one should expect to come out unscathed. That is hard for most people to wrap their head around.Every physical altercation I have ever had when I had to use something nasty (its only been a few times thank god) I was banged up, but I came out alive. Also, as someone else mentioned (i think it was olwen or tony), screaming and making a lot of noise is a good one. Having a weapon is a great equalizer, but most real thugs can tell right away if you intend to use it, and take you anyway. And, if you do shoot someone, there are a ton of obvious legal ramifications to worry about, so if you bring it out, keep that in mind.




*
IceMan:

Credit goes to Olwen on the "noise" tactic. She's right on that the more noise the better. :bow:

And not to piss on sports based martial arts (Judo-Sport based Sambo- TKD- Tournament Point Sparring and even Mix Martial Arts ) they are good in their own merits and great for kids -but, going the self defense route is a whole other direction. The best phrase that Bruce Lee used to describe them "Organized Mayhem"

I have visited a Krav Maga studio (very good stuff) also check out the JLO movieEnough (20020 there are some good Krav Maga clips of her training. Next time this movie is on TBS or AMC don't miss it.

What is nice is that there are choices with respect to (self defense) be it Krav Maga (Isreali based)-Kenpo (American Hawaiian based)- Kajukenbo (Hawaiian)-Jeet KunDO - Combat Ju Jitsu (American Based) - Sambo (Russian Based)-Wing Chung (i believe -originally developed for women)... 

Most of the Hawaiian based arts you do see large practioners - you just don't want to mess with these folks. 

Some clips

KajuKenbo in Action

52 Blocks-Jailhouse Rock-Inmate Fighting System

Wing Chung-Female Working out 


Also some weapons based training never hurts- sad part is that the Marcus of Queensbury rules does not apply. And as with guns- any use of a "weapon' has legal ramifications. Most folks see a physical confrontation large person as an opportunity grab a weapon. 

*


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Jan 28, 2009)

good posts tony...you know your stuff. I love MMA, it's my favorite sport, but it does have rules, a ref, and a dr. present, so I agree with you on it not being a "street" art. I just hope people, whether they are large or not, have a realistic view on what they can do and what their options are. I know what I can and can't do, and thus far has served me well.


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## tonynyc (Jan 28, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> good posts tony...you know your stuff. I love MMA, it's my favorite sport, but it does have rules, a ref, and a dr. present, so I agree with you on it not being a "street" art. I just hope people, whether they are large or not, have a realistic view on what they can do and what their options are. I know what I can and can't do, and thus far has served me well.



*

I'm far from an expert- for me 'knowledge' is an ongoing process. I'm still learning and many of the ideas that I have gotten over time have been from interacting with folks that have studied for many years and talking with other martial arts and discovering what works or not ( that is how systems like Krav Maga, KajuKenbo, JKD etc. ) all started. 

I think this thread is important to present many different views as well as input from others BBW/BHM (especially BBWs) as far as what is practical and what works. 

In addition, as you have stated it's about options cause there is so much to consider if a given technique will work or not...

modifying techniques to your bodytype
what is the scenario (sitting down and an assailant decides to attack ) ?
what is the scenario if you are sitting in your car?
what happens if you being tackeled to the ground? bum rush
what happens in a closed space;ie,elevator?
Does wearing clothes effect your techniques? 

And to folks that might assume that women don't have a high tolerance to pain - look at some of the local Golden Gloves matches whenever they are on TV. I've seen women competitors allow face look like it's been through a meat grinder and they will continue to fight. 


I saw this clip on Youtube regarding self defense for those that are paraplegic (not BBW related) but- very inspirational and shows how the martial arts is for everyone regardless of physical ability or percieved limitations.

Paraplegic Self Defense -Takedowns


*


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## olwen (Jan 28, 2009)

Mini said:


> Firing a gun is a simple task. Firing a gun when you've been smacked over the head with a brick and there's some hopped-up meth head beating the ever-loving shit out of you is not. See the difference?



What? I never said anything about carrying a gun or that drawing one would be simple...are we talking about the same things here?


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## tonynyc (Jan 29, 2009)

Melissa Soalt ( Dr. Ruthless) is a psychotherapist that has taught women how to defend themselves. I have listed the link to the You Tube clip below. and her website. Check them out definitely some interesting techniques and points that are made.

*You Tube Clip*

Practical-Primal Self Defense for Women

*Melissa Soalt -Website*

Dr. Ruthless-Voted best Women's Self Defense 2008


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 29, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *
> IceMan:
> 
> And not to piss on sports based martial arts (Judo-Sport based Sambo- TKD- Tournament Point Sparring and even Mix Martial Arts ) they are good in their own merits and great for kids -but, going the self defense route is a whole other direction. The best phrase that Bruce Lee used to describe them "Organized Mayhem"
> ...



I disagree, but only to an extent.

Firstly: Not every art that has "Self defense" implied or in its goals is good or better than those may not by that nature. Some of them frankly don't train right. Basically just doing drills with little to no resistance, which often builds bad habits, and doesn't allow for people to truly feel the pressure of a street situation. That's one reason why combat sports really shouldn't get as bad a rep in the martial arts community as they often do.

Knowing sometimes just isn't enough: You must apply as Lee says. :bow:

Secondly: It's not really an art thing as much as it's a school thing. Judo and Tae Kwon Do just as an example both have their share of sport elements and self-defense based schools, as well as the others you mentioned (Sans Krav Maga). There's all sorts of different rulesets, techniques, concepts, et cetera. I'm one to believe that it isn't the art, nor the person: But the training methodology that determines the ability to apply.

Thirdly - Besides Krav Maga and systems similar to it, almost every art has got sport in it somewhere, if not a sport-specific style. I'm not kidding. Every one you mentioned sans Krav Maga has a sport school, or competition of some sort with rules (Especially Sambo*, which is LOL based a lot on Judo! )

I just think of balance. Krav Maga is the poster child, because besides showing techniques, there's application, but the arts aren't bad simply because they have rules. You can easily use almost anything for self defense if you apply it correctly, and guide yourself against as many situations as you can. 


( But there's Sport Sambo and Self defense Sambo which is heavily based on Aikijujtusu. However, both can be applied.])


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## tonynyc (Jan 31, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> I disagree, but only to an extent.
> 
> Firstly: Not every art that has "Self defense" implied or in its goals is good or better than those may not by that nature. Some of them frankly don't train right. Basically just doing drills with little to no resistance, which often builds bad habits, and doesn't allow for people to truly feel the pressure of a street situation. That's one reason why combat sports really shouldn't get as bad a rep in the martial arts community as they often do.
> 
> ...



*
Jon:

So true the more guides that you have the better- just makes the knowledge journey more interesting with each step one takes. 

Also in this tough economic times - (where attending a school may not be an option) what is the best way to learn new techniques? Does one rely on web sites? youtube? books? I'll look at some of the Youtube clips and again some stuff is vlaid and some is not depends on the scenario 

In the spirit of BBW Self Defense I've included some clips below.Perhaps some of our BBW dimmers can share their thoughts. I thought these clips were pretty good. Just think of them as a guide.

 256 Ebony 1 Womens Self Defense 

253 Ebony 4 Womens Self Defense  

Womens Self Defense-Bedroom Choke

--------------------------------------------
For those who want to check out some self defense schools- I've listed two below;feel free to list others. I think you can check these sites for studios in your area.

FAST Self Defense

FAST Self Defense

--------------------------------------------------------

Krav Maga Worldwide

Krav Maga
*


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## olwen (Feb 1, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> Melissa Soalt ( Dr. Ruthless) is a psychotherapist that has taught women how to defend themselves. I have listed the link to the You Tube clip below. and her website. Check them out definitely some interesting techniques and points that are made.
> 
> *You Tube Clip*
> 
> ...





tonynyc said:


> *
> Jon:
> 
> So true the more guides that you have the better- just makes the knowledge journey more interesting with each step one takes.
> ...



Tony Thank You for these links!!!!! Especially the one about Dr. Ruthless. The things she was saying about not being taught to use our bodies is stuff I've said before. Like if I had been taught that it was okay to lift weights (and not worry about getting muscular) and to not be afraid to be physical or that there were other kinds of movements besides fucking running and ballet as a kid I'd have started exercising long ago. This is something I still can't get over. It is important for women to not be afraid to move and to stop thinking that because we might be shorter or smaller or have fewer muscles than men that we can't fight (back).

As for some of the movements - it might be difficult for a bbw to do things like squat down or lunge far or drop down on one knee, but I also know that when the adrenaline kicks in you gain strength and agility and you are able to move in ways that you might not otherwise be able to, but that fear kicks in too. The first step is to collect yourself and then open your mouth....being able to practice those moves in street situations would be good too...I love how Dr. Ruthless said not to defend, but to attack. That mindset is crucial for women to have.


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## olwen (Feb 5, 2009)

I found out today that, (and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already) mace is illegal in NY, but pepper spray is not and you have to register for mace just like you have to do with a gun, but pepper spray you can get anywhere. I can't remember the difference between the two tho. I wonder if mace is illegal anywhere else.


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## moore2me (Feb 5, 2009)

I am in the group of the fat women who could not run even if the building was fire. It is just not possible - I would just fall down and create a traffic jam. For me and others in my boat, the first line of self-defense has to be our brains. Think about what you are doing, where you are going, who is around you, or does anything look wrong before you blunder into a sticky situation.


If you are driving, look a what or who is in the cars near by before you park and get out.


The reverse applies when returning to your car. What or who is nearby? If it's too dark to see - you either parked in the wrong place to begin with or you never should have tried to shop at night. Shop during the day from now on.


If you have a lot of stuff & are returning to your car, ask for help with the carryout. Pretend you are infirmed or have back problems and cannot load the items yourself.


When driving home, watch in the mirror to see if someone is following you. If so, don't go home. Go to a public place while calling 911.


If someone tries to abduct you or force you into a car, faint, slump to the ground. There is no way in hell they can get me up without heavy machinery. And it is unlikely the can damage a vital organ with a knife or gun as I lay in fetal position.


Stay out of bad areas that are known for crime. If you are visiting from out of town, find out what these areas are.


If it comes down to a crazed tweaker wanting money (your purse or wallet) and you judge they are wacked out enough to hurt you in order to get another fix - give it to them. Whatever you have in your purse or wallet is not worth your life or a long rehab from surgery.


There will usually be two categories of folks in most crimes. The predator and the prey. You should use your brain to think more like the predator in order to avoid walking into traps that the prey of fall into.


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## tonynyc (Feb 5, 2009)

olwen said:


> I found out today that, (and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already) mace is illegal in NY, but pepper spray is not and you have to register for mace just like you have to do with a gun, but pepper spray you can get anywhere. I can't remember the difference between the two tho. I wonder if mace is illegal anywhere else.



*

Olwen: 

Here is some info regarding Mace & Pepper Spray
-----------------------------------------------

Mace vs. Pepper Spray

Mace is an irritant that is very similar to tear gas.

Pepper Spray is an inflammatory agent.

Pepper spray will have an effect on those that feel no pain such as those under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Mace may or may not have an effect on these types.

Mace will NOT cause inflammation of the capillaries causing temporary blindness, nausea, cut off all but life support breathing and create a very strong burning or stinging sensation.

Other Links and Useful Information


Mace & Pepper Spray

Should I Use Mace or Pepper Spray

*


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## olwen (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks Tony! I didn't even think to look it up. That's seriously helpful.


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## Ernest Nagel (Feb 6, 2009)

Well, if no one else is going to mention them I feel obliged to at least point out http://www.taser.com/pages/default.aspx

They're kind of expensive but they're very effective. I just replaced my older Taser with a C2. WAY better than a stun gun because you've got up to 15 feet of standoff room. Don't know about their legality in all states but I bet it's on the website.

Just want to point out also that both pepper spray and mace are very susceptible to wind. Most law enforcement agencies only recommend their use _indoors_. You also have to practice their use to keep the advantage of surprise. Bad guy sees it coming and it's pretty easy to dodge or cover up. That's the big plus to a few well learned moves from Krav Maga, etc. You can spray the crap outta them once they're on the ground or off of you.


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## TheIceManVer2.0 (Feb 6, 2009)

taser is a good idea. expensive, but i doubt most attackers could withstand it. My original post was a defense w/out weapons, but a taser being non lethal, and legal to carry in 43 states, beats a knife or gun due to less final and legal ramifications. Maybe get a custom BBW shaped Dims taser...


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## tonynyc (Feb 8, 2009)

TheIceManVer2.0 said:


> taser is a good idea. expensive, but i doubt most attackers could withstand it. My original post was a defense w/out weapons, but a taser being non lethal, and legal to carry in 43 states, beats a knife or gun due to less final and legal ramifications. Maybe get a custom BBW shaped Dims taser...



*
You might want to double check on the legality of tasers some manufacturers will not even ship them to certain states. 
*


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## fat hiker (Feb 9, 2009)

Mini said:


> And my best "bang for the buck" advice would be to get a gun, a CCL, and training as to how to draw it under stress, while being attacked, etc.. It's harder than it sounds. Again, there's no quick fix; even this "shortcut" will take a fair expenditure of time and energy.



Are you really in British Columbia? Because CCL - Concealed Carry Licence - is NOT legal anywhere in Canada.

One good, easy self-defence technique for BBWs to add to the list of "hit eyes" etc. is "finger nails across the face" - if you're close enough to reach your attacker's face, then dig in, ladies!

Also, most martial arts can teach you easy, simple, low-effort ways to break holds - most assaults start with some sort of hold, and you if can get even one hand free, you have a much better chance. They're routinely taught to girls as young as eight years old in self defence classes, so they're not hard.


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## Lamia (Feb 9, 2009)

My brother is a 2nd degree blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do. He tried to show me how to defend myself..but I can never remember any of it. So here is what I came up with for myself. I can't run, not just because of my girth, but I broke my leg in 3 places a couple of years ago and can't extend and flex my ankle very well. 

1) if grabbed from behind give a little push and fall over on top of them. 

2) if they come at me from the front feign a heart attack and fall to the ground (they're going to fall for it because I'm fat so of course I probably have heart attacks every 5 seconds) kick their knees out so their toes touch their thighs, that way you're on a even keel as far as your mobility. 

3) eye gouging, biting, throat punching, groin twisting, punching, removal etc


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## tonynyc (Feb 9, 2009)

*
It's always good to break up this serious chat with a little levity....

Tom and Jerry: Tom and Jerry Cartoon Kit (1962) Directed by Gene Deitch. 

You have to wonder if this Gene Deitch cartoon from the early 1960's is a harbinger to the current "self defense" and interest in "Judo" "BJJ" etc. etc. Check out Jerry Mouse Judo Training at 2:50 of the clip

"During the course of the cartoon, some other items appear, such as a book entitled Judo for Mice, a gym with boxing equipment, a judo school, assorted bricks a plank of wood, a cement block, and a large block of marble."

The Narrator sums it up best: 

"Anyone can now enter the lucrative field of animated cartoons with the new Tom and Jerry Cartoon Kit. This kit contains everything needed for quiet, sophisticated humor--one mean, stupid cat; one sweet, lovable mouse; and assorted deadly weapons. The coffee and cigarettes are for the cartoonists. "

Tom & Jerry-Cartoon Kit[/u]*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqyBEtMw6lw&feature=related


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## tonynyc (Feb 9, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *
> It's always good to break up this serious chat with a little levity....
> 
> Tom and Jerry: Tom and Jerry Cartoon Kit (1962) Directed by Gene Deitch.
> ...



Here's the link to the Cartoon

*Tom and Jerry : Cartoon Kit*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqyBEtMw6lw&feature=related


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## tonynyc (Feb 21, 2009)

Time to *Bump* the thread. I believe that some of the Dimmers had expressed interest in maybe a BBW/Self Defense forum at some of the upcoming Bashes. 

I also wanted to list alternative options and share some more links for folks to look at. Some folks may or may not feel comfy about discussing certian things in an open froum-but, wanted to present some links below... 

Perhaps some of you can report on the effectiveness of these organizations- I have not checked them out;but, wanted to present these links. Will post more stuff that I see could be of interest or a look see - or whatever information that you folks can find or share is most welcomed....

Association for Women's Self Defense Advancement


Arming Women Against Rape & Endangerment

* These folks are based out of Atlanta*

Free Afrikan Womens Self Defense


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## tonynyc (Mar 11, 2009)

*Wing Chun *was originally passed down from teacher to student orally rather than through written documentation, making it difficult to confirm or clarify the differing accounts of its creation. Some have sought to apply the methods of higher criticism to the oral histories of Wing Chun and other Chinese martial arts.[4] Others have attempted to discern the origins of Wing Chun by determining the specific purpose of its techniques. Mentions of the art start to appear in independent third-party documentation during the era of the Wing Chun master Leung Jan, making its subsequent history and divergence into various branches more amenable to documentary verification.

The common legend involves the young woman Yim Wing Chun (Wing Chun literally means beautiful springtime or everlasting spring). After she rebuffs the local warlord's marriage offer, he says he'll rescind his proposal if she can beat him in a fight. She asks a local Buddhist nun, Ng Mui, to teach her boxing, and the style they develop enables Yim Wing Chun to defeat the warlord. She thereafter marries her sweetheart and teaches him the style, which he names after her.

It should be noted that the system was developed during the Shaolin and Ming resistance movement against the Qing Dynasty, and thus many legends about the creator of Wing Chun were spread to confuse the enemy, including the story of Yim Wing Chun. This perhaps explains why no one has been able to accurately determine the creator or creators of Wing Chun

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun


*Nice Youtube Clip on the History of the Art along with Two Young ladies training *


Wing Tsun Story


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## tonynyc (Mar 11, 2009)

I had the pleasure of meeting Professor James when his studio use to be in Lower Manhattan a few years ago. The 10 Commandments of Self Defense Video -speaks volumes 


Professor David James Vee Arnis - 10 Commandments of Self Defense 

Vee Arnis Ju Jitsu


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## Tau (Mar 12, 2009)

Would you happen to have any international contacts who would be good at teaching martial arts - I'm in South Africa. Long shot I know but i'm very interested. I used to do kung fu in varsity and would like to take it up again but instructors always go at me about my weight and I'm not there to lose the weight, i just want to learn the art and be strong, so thus far I've pretty much avoided places that teach martial arts


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## tonynyc (Mar 12, 2009)

Tau said:


> Would you happen to have any international contacts who would be good at teaching martial arts - I'm in South Africa. Long shot I know but i'm very interested. I used to do kung fu in varsity and would like to take it up again but instructors always go at me about my weight and I'm not there to lose the weight, i just want to learn the art and be strong, so thus far I've pretty much avoided places that teach martial arts




Hi Tau: Welcome - perhaps others can chime in ;but, I did a google search and listed some possible Links regarding Martial Arts/Self Defense in South Africa. I cannot speak for any of these schools and you might want to contact these folks and check the systems out to see if they meet your needs. 

Krav Maga:Eli Ben-Ami International Krav-Maga Assoc 

Kajukenbo

Morne Swanpoel's Combat Coaching - South Africa


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## olwen (Mar 22, 2009)

Tau said:


> Would you happen to have any international contacts who would be good at teaching martial arts - I'm in South Africa. Long shot I know but i'm very interested. I used to do kung fu in varsity and would like to take it up again but instructors always go at me about my weight and I'm not there to lose the weight, i just want to learn the art and be strong, so thus far I've pretty much avoided places that teach martial arts



Tau, you can also look into Tai Chi and Quigong. From what I understand those are the basis for many other martial arts (I could be wrong about that tho) and anybody can do those regardless of weight or age. The movements are all very slow, but require a lot of stamina and will build up your stamina as you practice. A martial arts master can hold horse stance for hours at a time. The first time I tried it, it did me in after only 5 minutes. After a while I was able to last for longer and when you concentrate on breathing and your chi, you can actually feel your chi moving thru your body and it kind of opens you up. Good stuff.


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## Tau (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks Tony and Olwen - I really appreciate the feedback. Olwen I'm definitely going to look into the Tai Chi - sounds a lot like the kind of release I'm looking for right now


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## olwen (Mar 26, 2009)

Tau said:


> Thanks Tony and Olwen - I really appreciate the feedback. Olwen I'm definitely going to look into the Tai Chi - sounds a lot like the kind of release I'm looking for right now



Cool! Hope you find a class you like.


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## tonynyc (Mar 29, 2009)

*Considered by some the First MMA, Bruce Tegner, studied 10 different arts. His books are still available online and in most book stores.*






*Bruce Tegner 1929-1985*

*"Bruce Tegnér was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1929. Tegnér was literally born into the martial arts as both his mother and father were professional teachers of judo and jujitsu; they began Bruce's instruction in the martial arts when he was two years old. 
At the age of twenty-one, after becoming California state judo champion, he gave up competition to devote himself to research, course development, teaching, and teacher-training. In the U.S. armed forces Tegnér trained instructors to teach unarmed combat. He also taught military police and coached sport judo teams. From 1952-1967 he operated his own school in Hollywood, Calif. Among his students were many famous actors.

In 1967 Tegnér gave up his school and his teaching and spent his remaining years writing books on various aspects of the martial arts. His books covered a wide range of martial topics. They included sport training, classical training, and self-defense training.

Despite all that Tegnér did in the martial arts he was never really "accepted" by the martial arts community. Perhaps this is due to his approach. Tegnér's books exposed the many myths that exist in the martial arts, myths that many teachers of the arts would rather play upon in order to profit from or build their status from. He stripped much of this away and delivered a far different message. Tegner recognized that much of what was (and still is) being taught was too rigid, too traditional, too impractical and too sportive.

Tegnér knew that to excel in a sport one must be a good athlete. In order for the average person to protect themselves they don't need to be athletes, they need to learn simple methods. Methods that are easy to learn and easy to apply. The complex teachings of the martial arts are just not practical. So with that in mind it's easy to see why Tegnér would not be too popular with the martial arts crowd.

Interestingly enough a few years later a small Chinese man would come along and say much the same thing and the strong traditionists of the martial arts were just as angry at him as they were at Tegnér. However the Chinese man would go on to become a martial arts legend - Bruce Lee.

Tegnér died in the early 80's (I believe) and is now largely forgotten, but his message is as valid and valuable now as it was twenty or thirty years ago. His books are in nearly every public and school library in North America and have been published in several different languages. Tegnér's books cover many aspects of the martial arts including: the sport martial arts; traditional martial arts; and practical methods of self-defense for civilians and for law enforcement."*

*Source: Bruce Tegnér - An Introduction....*

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Tegner/tegner-intro.htm

==========================================================

*This is a great classic clip of Bruce Tegner and June Tegner demonstrating judo self defense techniques.*

*"June Tegner,Bruce's mom, was a remarkable woman who achieved the high rank of third degree black belt (sandan) under the tutelage of T. Shozo Kuwashima, an official representative of the Kodokan. When Jigaro Kano, the founder of judo, visited the United States, June Tegner traveled with his entourage and was later invited to study at the Kodokan. The Tegner family maintained a relationship with the Kodokan until after the death of Professor Kano and the beginning of World War II. "*


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## GregW (Mar 29, 2009)

Wow, cool thread! A lot of good info. has been presented here and I'd just like to add a few opinions and sources.

I can't sit still, so I've chosen to direct that energy into various activities - some of which are martial arts/combat sports. In that sense, I'm currently a Judo hobbyist (brown belt - first trained in 1988), a regular Tai Chi and Chi Gung practitioner, and I also have some experience with scholastic wrestling and amateur boxing as well as military service. 

IMO, self defense is 95%-plus awareness and avoidance. Physical training is needed for that other small percentage of situations. First off, I'd check with local law enforcement to see if they ofer any classes in this area if you are really interested. The price should be right and the info. is realistic. They'll let you know what you can do without breaking the law - and give you some physical techniques. 

One source for no-frills combat-proven material is WW2 combatives texts. Search for Fairbairn's Get Tough! and Applegate's Kill or Get Killed. If you practice some of the techniques until you can do them with power and continuously you've got something. Probably more than the average attacker has. But there probably won't be just one attacker and there's a good chance that the attackers will be armed... Ever heard "Two on one, time to run!" or "Two on one, get a gun!"?

If you want to take it further I'd go to a school that offers the chance to go full-contact against a fully-resisting opponent. There is no substitute for this, IMO. You need to know what you can do to someone of particular athletic ability and skill - and what such a person can do to you. Example - To those of you who've played American Football, what works in drills at half-speed may not work at all at full speed - and you need to learn that in a school and definitely in an actual assault. So take a look at Judo, BJJ, Kickboxing, Boxing, Wrestling, etc. because they will give you a chance to go full-throttle - but with enough rules to make things safe but still provide an opportunity to see what somone with more athletic ability and skill can do and how you would deal with it. Stay away from any place that only uses 
light-contact or claims that their style is too dangerous to make contact. I've never taken a Krav Maga class, but I get the impression that it teaches good skills.

Weapons can give you a phenomenal advantage over an assailant - sometimes enough that you can be the one in legal trouble. And the thought of being incarcerated makes me want to puke! 

There is no substitute for a good firearm, IMO. Just look at some of the ballistic tests done with shotguns! But do some reading and training before you decide to go this route. Any book by Massad Ayoob should give you good information, though there are plenty of books on this subject. You may want to visit a local firing range and take a class. And possibly obtain a CCW license.

I'm basically a hobbyist on this subject but I do have some experience. Feel free to respond with questions or comments.


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## AnotherJessica (Mar 29, 2009)

There is a book called The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker and I would recommend it to any woman but also men. It's a really fascinating book about trusting your instincts to avoid potentially dangerous situations. There is a lot more to the book that I won't go into but I recommend it because it could possibly help somebody out there from getting into a situation where they need to use self defense! There is a link about the book below. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0440226198/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## tonynyc (Mar 29, 2009)

AnotherJessica said:


> There is a book called The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker and I would recommend it to any woman but also men. It's a really fascinating book about trusting your instincts to avoid potentially dangerous situations. There is a lot more to the book that I won't go into but I recommend it because it could possibly help somebody out there from getting into a situation where they need to use self defense! There is a link about the book below.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/0440226198/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Thanks for posting and sharing this info. I will have to check this book out. Gavin De Becker also appeared on ABC's Primetime in 2007. See Link to Youtube clips Below

Prime TimeLive on Gift of fear:Gavin de Becker Part 1

Prime TimeLive on Gift of fear:Gavin de Becker Part 2


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## GregW (Mar 30, 2009)

I've read the Gift of Fear book and it was very good. I believe that De Becker has published a few other titles as well. You might also want to check out a fellow named Marc MacYoung - some of his breakdowns on criminal mindsets hit the bullseye.


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## Ernest Nagel (Mar 30, 2009)

Well, this technically isn't self defense as we're discussing it here but I thought this was worthwhile (assuming you have a car with an alarm).

Put your car keys beside your bed at night. If you hear a noise outside your home or someone trying to get in your house, just press the panic button for your car. The alarm will be set off, and the horn will continue to sound until either you turn it off or the car battery dies.

This tip came from a neighborhood watch coordinator. Next time you come home for the night and you start to put your keys away, think of this:

It's a security alarm system that you probably already have and requires no installation. Test it. It will go off from most everywhere inside your house and will keep honking until your battery runs down or until you reset it with the button on the key fob chain. It works if you park in your driveway or garage If your car alarm goes off when someone is trying to break into your house, odds are the burglar rapist won't stick around... After a few seconds all the neighbors will be looking out their windows to see who is out there and sure enough the criminal won't want that. And remember to carry your keys while walking to your car in a parking lot. The alarm can work the same way there ..... This is something that should really be shared with everyone. Maybe it could save a life or a sexual abuse crime.

P.S. I am sending this to everyone I know because I think it is fantastic. Would also be useful for any emergency, such as a heart attack, where you can't reach a phone.. My Mom has suggested to my Dad that he carry his car keys with him in case he falls outside and she doesn't hear him. He can activate the car alarm and then she'll know there's a problem.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (Mar 30, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> Yep. It's hard to find a good place I heard, however. It's very realistic though, along with Haganah, and others such as combat hapkido.



Krav maga is a very interesting martial art, but the lessons are very expensive. In my area, there is a place that teaches it for $100 a month with a contract and $150 without a contract.


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## tonynyc (Apr 2, 2009)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> Krav maga is a very interesting martial art, but the lessons are very expensive. In my area, there is a place that teaches it for $100 a month with a contract and $150 without a contract.



That's not bad - are you planning to check them out? if so , let us know what you think of the school....


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## tonynyc (Apr 14, 2009)

*Shihan Roy Richmond*

Shihan Roy Richmond has been teaching martial arts over 30 years.
5th degree Tae Kwon Do
3rd degree (WTF) World Tae Kwon Do Federation
1st degree Sanuces Ryu Jiu Jitsu

Shatters the myth that you only see SSBHM in Sumo or ProWrestling 

----------------------------

*Youtube clips of Shihan Richmond doing Cane Defense *


Shihan Richmond-Cane Defense Photo Intro

Shihan Richmond-Short Clip Cane Defense 1

Shihan Richmond-Short Clip Cane Defense 2

Shihan Richmond-Short Clip Controller Method

Shihan Richmond-Self Defense Sitting Down

--------------------------------------------------------------

*Shihan Roy Richmond - OH DO KWON Website*

Shihan Roy Richmond- OH DO KWON


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## tonynyc (Apr 14, 2009)

these ladies are kickass for sure 

Ladies Self Defense with Bob Gregory

This is a pretty funny clip - can you see a gorgeous BBW doing these moves :wubu:

Old School Ju-Jitsu


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## phoaglan (Apr 14, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I'm good for stopping right where I am and rummaging in my bag for imaginary keys/bus pass/cigarettes (even though I don't smoke) just to let the guy following me pass me if I'm nervous. I'll turn around on one foot and go back, act like I left something behind and leave him to move on someplace else. No one has ever followed me back. If a suspicious person approaches me and begins to step across that invisible threshold of personal space, straightening up and using a loud assertive voice will do. "Yo man, get up off me! You don't know me like that!" So far that has been all that's necessary. Nobody likes a scene and everybody likes to watch a fight so this kind of confrontation attracts attention immediately. It has never gone beyond any of these snenarios. *knocks on wood*


Playing a tape of a Sarah Palin interview would also be a deterrent.


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## tonynyc (Apr 14, 2009)

phoaglan said:


> Playing a tape of a Sarah Palin interview would also be a deterrent.



I found the Turkey Interview  a real deterrent.


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## olwen (Apr 14, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> these ladies are kickass for sure
> 
> Ladies Self Defense with Bob Gregory
> 
> ...



I couldn't do some of those moves. Dropping to the floor with bad knees? Not likely. Plus my stomach would get in the way of bringing my leg up fast enough to flip the guy over once down. Looks like ju jitsu would only work for a small enough bbw who could get into those positions quickly and without too much effort. Still, I'd be willing to learn some of that stuff just to see where my boundaries are.


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## tonynyc (Apr 14, 2009)

olwen said:


> I couldn't do some of those moves. Dropping to the floor with bad knees? Not likely. Plus my stomach would get in the way of bringing my leg up fast enough to flip the guy over once down. Looks like ju jitsu would only work for a small enough bbw who could get into those positions quickly and without too much effort. Still, I'd be willing to learn some of that stuff just to see where my boundaries are.



Hi Olwen: I was only showing the clips as some of them are pretty comical and yes - dropping on a street floor (not too practical). There are ju jitsu practioners that are large (see previous thread on Shihan Richmond- well he's an exception being a SSBHM and despite what may appear to be limited mobility ) are able to defend himself.

I'm hoping that some Dimmers who practice Hapkido could say a work or two about using the Walking Cane for Self Defense. I'll see what more things I can come up with as well as other more realistic self defense clips and scenarios and of ocurse what others are happy to share


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## olwen (Apr 14, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> Hi Olwen: I was only showing the clips as some of them are pretty comical and yes - dropping on a street floor (not too practical). There are ju jitsu practioners that are large (see previous thread on Shihan Richmond- well he's an exception being a SSBHM and despite what may appear to be limited mobility ) are able to defend himself.
> 
> I'm hoping that some Dimmers who practice Hapkido could say a work or two about using the Walking Cane for Self Defense. I'll see what more things I can come up with as well as other more realistic self defense clips and scenarios and of ocurse what others are happy to share



Ooooh. Well then yes, those clips were funny in a weird sort of way. 

...well now I wonder if faking a heart attack would scare an attacker off...


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## tonynyc (Apr 16, 2009)

olwen said:


> ...well now I wonder if faking a heart attack would scare an attacker off...



Nice tip Olwen - that is another great tactic :bow:

*How to Avoid Being Mugged


Maybe you think a mugging will never happen to you. Chances are the people you read about today in the newspaper who were mugged didn't think it would happen to them either.

Muggings are usually crimes of opportunity. The mugger looks for likely victims based on how easy a target they will be and how much money they expect to get from the victim.


What can you do to reduce your chance of being mugged?

Here are some tips:

1. Walk with one or more people. Muggers are much less likely to take on more than one person. This goes back to how easy they view the target. The addition of even one additional person introduces an unknown into the equation. The mugger will have to divide his attention and therefore may be vulnerable to a counterattack.

2. Stay in well lit and well traveled areas. If you are not familiar with the area ask someone to tell you the areas you should stay away from. If you are staying in a hotel, ask the concierge to show you on the map a safe route for walking.

3. Don't walk like a victim. Most convicted felons say that they can pick out a victim by their posture and the way they walk. Don't stoop over while you walk. Square your shoulders and walk briskly. Keep your head up and be alert to your surroundings. Imagine you just won an Olympic Gold Metal and you are walking up to the dais to accept your medal.

4. Take a cell phone with you and have it handy. If you suspect something is going to happen predial 911 on the phone and keep your finger on the send button.

5. If someone is approaching you from your front, make sure you look around to see if his friends are coming up behind you. Since most muggers are cowards, they may feel they need overwhelming odds to complete their crime.

6. Always be aware of exit lanes that you can take to get away from the situation. Head for the center of activity. Do not run into the woods unless it is the only option available.

7. Make noise, make lots of noise. The mugger doesn't want attention and noise may cause him to give up on you and pick a better target.

8. If it is legal in the area you might consider carrying a stun gun, pepper spray or a TASER in your pocket or purse. These items may not prevent someone from accosting you but they will likely increase your chances of coming out of the situation unhurt.

9. The most effective of the three is the TASER. It allows you to stop the mugger before he gets his hands on you. You can use the TASER up to 15 feet away and neutralize the threat long enough to get away.

10. Pepper Spray has to be used at a much shorter distance. The spray is effective at changing the muggers mind from hurting you. It will inflame his skin and close his eyes so he will have difficulty even seeing you. You spray it directly into the face and eyes of the attacker and don't stop spraying until he stops what he is doing.

11. A stun gun requires you to touch the mugger with it. Similar to the TASER it uses electrical pulses that can effectively stun the person so again you will have time to get away. On both the TASER and Stun Gun the current will not pass through the mugger into you even if you are touching them will using them.

12. Don't fight over the money in your wallet or purse. Money can be replaced but your life can't. It's better to give them your money and live than to leave your family without a mother or father.

13. As a last ditch tactic fall down and (noisily) fake a heart attack. Most felons are experts on the law and they will realize that if someone dies while they are mugging them they could be charged with murder.

14. My martial arts teacher once told me a story about a time he was in a seedy bar and it looked like the patrons were going to rob him. He discreetly went into the bathroom and put his money in his sock. When he came out of the bathroom he tried to borrow money from everyone in the bar. Since everyone knew he had no money he was able to walk out of the bar without a scratch.*

*Tom Miller

Source:*

TAMCO Enterprises


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## tonynyc (Apr 22, 2009)

Another nice clip on personal awareness by Sifu Fred Mastison & Teresa Mastison. Enjoy... Will post other clips later 

========================================================
Self Defense Awareness

Personal Space 

Emergency Action Plan


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## tonynyc (Jun 12, 2009)

*BUMP*
---------
I remember reading an article in the May/June 2009 issue of AARP on "Canemasters" and using the Cane for self defense - here are so more thoughts on this issue from another source. 


Many of these techniques can be useful for all folks -plus for those in the Atlanta area there are free Self Defense classes "Prince Karate Academy" (see end of Article). 

===========
*Senior citizens learn to stick up for selves
Self-defense classes provide exercise and build confidence. At the heart of it is the safety factor.*
*By Elsa K. Simcik

For the Journal-Constitution

Monday, April 27, 2009*

Two years ago as she walked to her car in a grocery store parking lot, Bernestene Betterson saw a man following her. As she approached her vehicle and the man got closer, “I clapped my hands on his ears and pulled his head down on the trunk of my car,” said Betterson, 73, of Lithonia. Passers-by came to her aid, but in the end, it was the would-be attacker who was begging for help.

Betterson credits her quick reflexes to self-defense class. She’s been taking the course through the Lou Walker Senior Center in Lithonia for about two and a half years. Her teacher, Sensei Frank Crawford, owner of  Life Martial Arts, said his class is a mix of fitness (things such as push-ups, sit-ups, jumping jacks) and self-defense.

During the self-defense portion, Crawford said the senior citizens “learn how to deal with people —- with gang members, with youth. Most of [the seniors] are extremely fast and strong; a lot of them can deliver a good kick to the head. They basically learn how to use different parts of their bodies as basic weapons.”

He said that while some do push-ups on their knees or make modifications because of a disability, for the most part they can do anything that younger folks can do —- sometimes more.

“This was the thing that they told me to promise them,” Crawford said. “Whatever I teach them, teach them and grade them just like I would someone else.”

*Crime a concern*

“Now we hear more and more about seniors being attacked in parking lots and other areas where they are victims of petty theft,” said Suzanne Economopoulos, director of the Center for Positive Aging (www.centerforpositiveaging.org), a non-profit organization specializing in connecting seniors to area resources. “They become an easy target because they may not be aware of the threat and because they may seem fragile.

“Many lower income seniors … live in areas where crime is increasing,” Economopoulos said. “In some cases, they are unable to make changes to their homes that would make them safer —- such as alarms systems and better locks —- because of finances,” she said.

Economopoulos said that she’s been getting a lot of inquiries about cane classes, where seniors learn how to use canes as weapons.

While her organization doesn’t currently offer the classes, the Cane Masters Association has a DVD at www.canemasters.com.

Cane Masters founder Mark Shuey calls his class Cane-Fu. His company sells canes made of harder, thicker wood and with wider crooks to fit around an attackers neck.

“Cane fighting may be trendy, but it’s also a useful skill,” said Leslie Quander Wooldridge, associate editor of AARP The Magazine. “Older adults who learn self-defense techniques can be better prepared for emergency situations, and they also may receive a confidence boost from knowing that they’re physically strong.”

Wooldridge said that because cane fighting and other self-defense classes include an exercise component, “instruction can have some real physical benefits.”

*Confidence-builder*

Gloria Sugars and Herbert Fox, a married couple who live in Smoke Rise, have been taking Crawford’s class for three years. The two have even gone beyond self-defense and now also practice taekwondo. They say the biggest thing they’ve gotten out of the class is confidence —- a trait that was put to the test during a confrontation at Hartsfield-Jackson airport.

“Some unruly individual decided he needed to knock a lot of people aside to get to the turnstile to pick up his bag,” said Fox, 67. “He did it to me also, and I didn’t appreciate it, so I pushed him aside. He started to get belligerent about it and I calmly stood there.”

Sugars, 61, added, “I said, &#8216;Sir, you do not want to do this.’ He saw that we didn’t seem to be afraid of him. So he decided to walk away.”

In addition to the confidence, Fox said, “You build stability, strength, endurance and balance.”

Betterson said of the class, “It teaches you to be aware of your surroundings —- certain ways to shake a hand, certain ways to look out for things, certain ways to be prepared.” And while the man she encountered in the parking lot later claimed he was “just playing,” Betterson is glad she was able to protect herself. She may have even helped to prevent future assaults from the same man. “He’ll never do that again!” she said.

*Stay Safe Tips*

Tony Aderhold, a crime prevention specialist and senior instructor at the Fulton County Police Academy, shares his favorite lessons in avoiding assaults and fighting back

> Instead of carrying a purse, put your ID and money in your pocket.

> If you have to carry a purse, don’t carry anything that you’re not willing to part with. If the person grabs the purse, let them have it.

> Go in the buddy system; shop with neighbors or friends.

> When someone asks “What time is it?” instead of dropping your head and looking at your wrist, “I teach them to hold their wrist up and keep your eye on that person,” Aderhold said.

> If you get in a situation and you have to hit the person, don’t necessarily kick below the belt. “Any man over 5 years old knows that’s what you’re gonna go for,” Aderhold said. “I show them how to do a palm strike. Strike with the base of your hand, fingers curled down.”

> Use verbal commands. Aderhold recommends shouting, “Stop. Leave me alone! Get away from me!” He said this not only draws attention, but it forces you to breathe.

> Replace pepper spray after a year. Instead of attaching it to your key chain, use a coil that you wear around your wrist. It will be easier to access if someone approaches you while you’re unlocking your door.

*> Want some free hands-on self-defense training? Prince Karate Academy is holding a women’s self-defense seminar Saturday at 10 a.m. 3830 Princeton Lakes Parkway, Suite 200, Atlanta. Prince Karate Academy*

*Source*

Atlanta Journal Constitution

=======================================================

*CaneMasters*









CaneMasters

*
CaneMasters International Association (800-422-2263)
*


*CANEMASTER CHANNEL ON YOUTUBE
*

-------------------------------------------------------

*ChosonNinja - YouTube Clips 2 of 5*

*** you can check the other clips on Youtube. 

Elder Cane Defense-1

Elder Cane Defense-2


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## joswitch (Jun 14, 2009)

Heya! Wow! I have soooo much I want to contribute to this thread which I've been reading up on my phone over the weekend, but it's verrry late here, so just a brief one to start -

Tony - nice to see you namechecking Cane masters....

If you live anywhere where it rains much carrying a large umbrella particularly with a "golfing" spike puts an improvised "weapon" already in your hands - no fumbling for anythying in pockets etc!... what's more the sight of it = deterrent...
I carry a 'brolly pretty much everywhere (there's a salsa class in the arts centre where I have a studio- apparently some of the students and teachers refer to me as Senor Paraguas Negro - Mr Black Umbrella! lol!) 

If you can afford it get one of these unbreakable umbrellas! -
http://www.real-self-defense.com/unbreakable_umbrella.html

Check out the guy smashing stuff with it!
one day - I'll have the spare cash to buy one! (and then I'll leave it on a train!)


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## tonynyc (Jun 15, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Heya! Wow! I have soooo much I want to contribute to this thread which I've been reading up on my phone over the weekend, but it's verrry late here, so just a brief one to start -
> 
> Tony - nice to see you namechecking Cane masters....
> 
> ...



*
Joswitch:

I love the accent 'brolly 

I like the unbreakable umbrella - the only downside is the cost which is fairly 
and the fact that one could easily forget it on the subway. But, very nice site overall and yes definitely share and add your thoughts as well.... 

*


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## Gingembre (Jun 18, 2009)

joswitch said:


> I carry a 'brolly pretty much everywhere (there's a salsa class in the arts centre where I have a studio- apparently some of the students and teachers refer to me as Senor Paraguas Negro - Mr Black Umbrella! lol!




Ah ha ha - "the fighty stick"


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## joswitch (Jun 18, 2009)

olwen said:


> Just a weird anecdote:
> 
> Last week I had just said goodbye to my male friend after hanging out and went on my way to the bus stop. I was on a busy street around 11pm and I had that tingly hairs on the back of my neck feeling (like I felt like I'd never walked on that street before and I work in the area so it's a familiar street and shouldn't feel strange) but I just dismissed it and kept walking. I go to cross the street and four guys came up behind me and started doing...I don't know it was weird, one of them was in my face and the other one was trying to rub his ass against me. I'm sure they were all drunk too since they were also trying to hurl insults at me in some thick accent I could barely make out...anyway, I tried to move away and they followed me. I was starting to freak out a little, but I tried not to show it tho and I remembered about the vocalizations so I turned around to face all of them and started hurling insults at the one who had his hand on his dick. They were all so surprised I said anything that they all took a step back and just looked at me, so I took that moment to run across the street as fast as I could before the light changed again, and luckily a bus was pulling up to the curb and I just got on it. I didn't even care which one it was I just got on it and when I sat down I was shaking.
> 
> I've been half wondering ever since then what would have happened if I hadn't opened my mouth and said something. Needless to say, I'm glad I spoke up cause it worked.



Hey Olwen - just to say I'm glad you got away safe and sound and kudos to ya for defending yourself - your story exemplifies the "distract and escape" principle - which is very, very useful... and as you say shows the power of the VOICE - all animals including humans are startled by sudden loud noises and that's something to exploit in protecting yourself...

Another point - you mention "that tingly hairs on the back of my neck feeling" i.e. your peripheral senses and subconcious kicking in and saying "Hey! something's wrong!" I can't emphasise strongly enough how useful that "spider sense" can be - it's stood me in good stead many a time... (please do not think I am in any way criticizing you for ignoring it that time, I'm totally not!)... now you know what it feels like - it's so useful to watch out for it, and let your awareness provide you an early warning that you can act on - often by simple, unhurried "evasive" action before anyone gets close to you...


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## joswitch (Jun 18, 2009)

Gingembre said:


> Ah ha ha - "the fighty stick"


Lolz! You found me!


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## joswitch (Jun 18, 2009)

Another useful tip - carry a decoy wallet - with enough cash money in it and a few of those fake credit cards that come in your junk mail - if confronted by a mugger(s) you don't feel confident that you can immediately escape from/fight you have the option of throwing it at their feet/into their face/ to some distance away... odds are they'll go pick it up, that distraction provides your opportunity to fight back / shout for help / get away / all three...


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## joswitch (Jun 18, 2009)

This next bit is also useful - if your assailant is already close to you - especially for big people, because it does not involve any acrobatics at all! even less than a knee in the groin (which a lot of men have an inbuilt "radar protection" for anyway)... and it tends to be unexpected too! Feel free to throw in loud screams/shouts at all points!

From both ninjutsu and Fairburns "Get Tough":
1 - STAMP on your assailants foot - not just the toe - the instep... you'll probably break it...
2- your foot stays down trapping their foot - now PUSH them over (it's real hard to stay stood with one foot that won't move) if their foot wasn't broken already you'll probably rip/tear/break their foot and/or ankle with this....
3- optional - if you can STAMP again on a body part WITHOUT BEING GRABBED, do so...
4- now GET AWAY
with your assailant downed with a broken/sprained foot and/or ankle even if you can't run at all, you'll have a head start and a likely speed advantage to get away safely!


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## tonynyc (Jun 19, 2009)

joswitch said:


> This next bit is also useful - if your assailant is already close to you - especially for big people, because it does not involve any acrobatics at all! even less than a knee in the groin (which a lot of men have an inbuilt "radar protection" for anyway)... and it tends to be unexpected too! Feel free to throw in loud screams/shouts at all points!
> 
> From both ninjutsu and Fairburns "Get Tough":
> 1 - STAMP on your assailants foot - not just the toe - the instep... you'll probably break it...
> ...




*
Joswitch: have you checked out Fairbairn's system "Defendu" here are some links below on a true legend of Combat Judo.

Some Interesting Links

 William Ewart Fairbairn 

Defendu

*


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## olwen (Jun 28, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Hey Olwen - just to say I'm glad you got away safe and sound and kudos to ya for defending yourself - your story exemplifies the "distract and escape" principle - which is very, very useful... and as you say shows the power of the VOICE - all animals including humans are startled by sudden loud noises and that's something to exploit in protecting yourself...
> 
> Another point - you mention "that tingly hairs on the back of my neck feeling" i.e. your peripheral senses and subconcious kicking in and saying "Hey! something's wrong!" I can't emphasise strongly enough how useful that "spider sense" can be - it's stood me in good stead many a time... (please do not think I am in any way criticizing you for ignoring it that time, I'm totally not!)... now you know what it feels like - it's so useful to watch out for it, and let your awareness provide you an early warning that you can act on - often by simple, unhurried "evasive" action before anyone gets close to you...



Thanks Joe. Yes, now that I know what it feels like you better believe I will never ignore it again. 

All your other tips are good.

I read something recently (I can't remember where otherwise I'd link it) about how the most common time for homicides are during the summer on the weekends at 10pm, or rather, the hottest days of the year at night. So if it's hot and it's after 10pm, everyone should be extra careful.


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## tonynyc (Jun 29, 2009)

olwen said:


> Thanks Joe. Yes, now that I know what it feels like you better believe I will never ignore it again.
> 
> All your other tips are good.
> 
> I read something recently (I can't remember where otherwise I'd link it) about how the most common time for homicides are during the summer on the weekends at 10pm, or rather, the hottest days of the year at night. So if it's hot and it's after 10pm, everyone should be extra careful.



*
Good Tip Olwen:
Something about the summer just brings out the nastiness is some folks (this can happen when you have one of those heat waves). 
*


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## StarWitness (Jun 29, 2009)

olwen said:


> I read something recently (I can't remember where otherwise I'd link it) about how the most common time for homicides are during the summer on the weekends at 10pm, or rather, the hottest days of the year at night. So if it's hot and it's after 10pm, everyone should be extra careful.



I believe it. The volunteer coordinator from the Women's Center I used to volunteer with said that August was their busiest month in terms of reported sexual assaults.

I've been thinking about starting aikido classes-- I'd love to take krav maga, but there's nobody around here who teaches it, unfortunately-- my one concern is getting hurt during practice, as I don't currently have health insurance. I'm not in great shape-- although I do okay for my size-- but I've heard that people of all fitness levels can learn aikido. And it's so graceful! I want to wear swishy pants and flip motherfuckers left and right.


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## tonynyc (Jun 30, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I believe it. The volunteer coordinator from the Women's Center I used to volunteer with said that August was their busiest month in terms of reported sexual assaults.
> 
> I've been thinking about starting aikido classes-- I'd love to take krav maga, but there's nobody around here who teaches it, unfortunately-- my one concern is getting hurt during practice, as I don't currently have health insurance. I'm not in great shape-- although I do okay for my size-- but I've heard that people of all fitness levels can learn aikido. And it's so graceful! I want to wear swishy pants and flip motherfuckers left and right.



*
Hi StarWitness:

I think "The chance of getting hurt" that's one of the factor that does come to play in any self defense type of training - depending on the school or system there is a chance of getting hurt in practice. You have to see how you react to getting hit for the first time (not an easy thing-but you adapt). Better in a studio than out in the streets where there is no second chance.

Regardless of size - one can learn any "Art" - you adapt the "Art" to you.

I guess with each "art" it really depends what folks are looking for (self defense- sports- meditation etc.)- what works for them and how practical a certain technique is to a given situation. You expand your knowledge and read up on several systems to see which works for you.

I've seen some stuff on "Expert Village" on Youtube as well as other clips that you just have to laugh and say "WTF" were they thinking about. You have some folks out there touting really questionable techniques.

If you are looking for a more relaxed form (Tai Chi) is excellent (I understand does have some self defense techniques there as well- but, the "trick" is finding the instructor that teaches this aspect of the art).

Now as far as getting into shape (it's a must) - the worse scenario that you want to find yourself in is "heaven forbid"... you have to defend yourself - you run out of gas. That's not to say that you go out tommorrow and run a marathon; but, you gradually build yourself up. 

There are a few threads on the Health Board on Exercises ideas and One sticky which several folks have commented on their "Daily Workout" Journal. Check them out. 

Another nice thing about this thread is that you will see that we have many MA fans in Dims of all different styles. 
*


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## olwen (Jun 30, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I believe it. The volunteer coordinator from the Women's Center I used to volunteer with said that August was their busiest month in terms of reported sexual assaults.
> 
> I've been thinking about starting aikido classes-- I'd love to take krav maga, but there's nobody around here who teaches it, unfortunately-- my one concern is getting hurt during practice, as I don't currently have health insurance. I'm not in great shape-- although I do okay for my size-- but I've heard that people of all fitness levels can learn aikido. And it's so graceful! I want to wear swishy pants and flip motherfuckers left and right.



Lots of martial arts classes start with tons and tons of basic drills. I doubt you'd get hurt punching and kicking the air over and over again. Seriously, those damn drills are BORING, but I get bored easily. It would take a few classes before you worked up to sparring, and by then you should in theory be conditioned just enough to handle the blows. Plus Tony's advice is as always, excellent. You just need to find the right class. I say go for it.


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## tonynyc (Jun 30, 2009)

olwen said:


> Lots of martial arts classes start with tons and tons of basic drills. I doubt you'd get hurt punching and kicking the air over and over again. Seriously, those damn drills are BORING, but I get bored easily. It would take a few classes before you worked up to sparring, and by then you should in theory be conditioned just enough to handle the blows. Plus Tony's advice is as always, excellent. You just need to find the right class. I say go for it.



*
Olwen:

I agree with your points and along those lines...

Well the only time one can get hurt doing punching or kicking drills is if one's technique is off and then you have the chance of injury.

Repetition is important -but, you do it to the point that the mechanics are sound and the reflexes become second nature. In Sparring and being able to take blows and then react- it's pretty much of an individual thing. Also, repetition in that helps as well.

Finding the right school and system is a journey - all depends what one is really searching for.

More knowledge one obtains the better it makes you ...

*


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## joswitch (Jul 6, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I believe it. The volunteer coordinator from the Women's Center I used to volunteer with said that August was their busiest month in terms of reported sexual assaults.
> 
> I've been thinking about starting aikido classes-- I'd love to take krav maga, but there's nobody around here who teaches it, unfortunately-- my one concern is getting hurt during practice, as I don't currently have health insurance. I'm not in great shape-- although I do okay for my size-- but I've heard that people of all fitness levels can learn aikido. And it's so graceful! I want to wear swishy pants and flip motherfuckers left and right.



Aikido is strongly related to ninjutsu / taijutsu (which I've done), but with the nasty strikes taken out and the throws are modified so as to be less destructive... It's an awesome martial art and I highly recommend it.. It's all about body movement/mechanics and balance... If you're heavier you may actually find that to be an advantage in some instances...


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## joswitch (Jul 6, 2009)

olwen said:


> Lots of martial arts classes start with tons and tons of basic drills. I doubt you'd get hurt punching and kicking the air over and over again. Seriously, those damn drills are BORING, but I get bored easily. It would take a few classes before you worked up to sparring, and by then you should in theory be conditioned just enough to handle the blows. Plus Tony's advice is as always, excellent. You just need to find the right class. I say go for it.



Not really much kicking and punching in Aikido - it's a locks, holds and throws art...


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## joswitch (Jul 6, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *
> 
> 
> If you are looking for a more relaxed form (Tai Chi) is excellent (I understand does have some self defense techniques there as well- but, the "trick" is finding the instructor that teaches this aspect of the art).
> ...



Everything in Tai Chi is actually applicable in self defence, but unlike most martial arts whcih begin with reaction to the opponent ("know your enemy" to paraphrase Sun Tzu) Tai Chi begins with establish yourself: in balance, movement, flow ("know thyself also, only with both is victory assured" really really paraphrasing there!)...

As well as all the "forms"/groups of movements you learn, you should get to do "sticky hand" drills where you and a partner dynamically work to feel each others balance, attempt to throw the other...

It's amazing how this works when you get it right! Years before, when I was Tai Chi training in a park I threw my instructor with almost no effort... and when I started doing ninjutsu I was doing a technique with a real bruiser of a training partner and I just "felt" that sweet spot of balance loss and with just a guiding hand on his wrist, turning from my waist and stepping I threw him clear across the room... It's GOLD when you get it right!

Tai Chi - like a cast iron bar wrapped in cotton wool - it may take much longer for the self defence aspects to "emerge" into explicit training / your awareness, but the coordination and balance it gives you is really useful and pretty essential if you have to protect yourself! 

(and in the Yang style I did most recently, for about a year, there were a couple of regular ladies in the class who were probably in the 280 - 300lb range)


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## tonynyc (Jul 7, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Everything in Tai Chi is actually applicable in self defence, but unlike most martial arts whcih begin with reaction to the opponent ("know your enemy" to paraphrase Sun Tzu) Tai Chi begins with establish yourself: in balance, movement, flow ("know thyself also, only with both is victory assured" really really paraphrasing there!)...
> 
> As well as all the "forms"/groups of movements you learn, you should get to do "sticky hand" drills where you and a partner dynamically work to feel each others balance, attempt to throw the other...
> 
> ...



My exposure to tai chi was very limited- I just attended six classes back when I was in college . At that time I was exposed to self defense techniques this later pushed my interest/knowledge more in the lines of ju-jitsu/atemi-waza etc.and my interest in tai chi waned;but, I could really appreciate the tai chi applications now. 

I wonder of interest in certain arts breakdown by Gender and Age where.... 

1. You mainly see kids in Tae Kwon Do.
2. From teens to about mid 30's peak interest in Mixed Martial Arts and Brazilian Jujitsu
3. Interest in other forms (Street based or Weapons based Systems can depend on age & gender). 

What are your opinions of  Martial Artist Robert Sharp.....Pretty interesting stuff and insights


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## GregW (Jul 10, 2009)

I just checked out some videos on YouTube of Robert Sharp and he comes across as a cool and knowledgeable cat. He'd be the type of person that is a long-time regular at local weekend gatherings at a park where folks get together and train in an informal way.

As for arts by age and gender... (IMO)

TKD has a lot of kids involved because they accept students at an early age and some of the moves are for young, flexible, athletic types. And some of this art/sport is very questionable for physical techniques that are valuable n a self-defense situation. Also, *some* schools are essentially day care centers/belt factories that teach a few punches, blocks, and kicks. More than you'll see in other arts.

MMA and BJJ programs develop real skills, ones that have been proven to work in full-contact situations against a skilled, fuly resisting opponent. Often it takes time for someone who is new to MA/combat sports to figure this out, since it is much easier to find a strip mall McDojo. And you typically need to be around 18 to practice MMA style fighting. The dowonside is that this training can be too physically demanding for a lot of folks, especially those over 30 or so - this varies among individuals and schools. 

I've never practiced a street or weapons-based system, so I can't say much about them. If I wanted to practice with weapons, I'd go to a range and take classes for tactical pistol or shotgun.


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## tonynyc (Jul 11, 2009)

It's funny that ypou mention 'daycare centers/belt factories' cause that's what some Martial Arts studio have become. I've seen one Studio in Upper Manhattan that's had to share space with a clothing store. 

As far as TKD- it's good exercise for kids and I would imagine that Hapkido would get more self defense oriented folks. 

The one thing that I have seen in the places that I've worked out is that kids and adults are in a seperate class. 

As far as firearm training much would depend what region of the country you live in. Then again , you have the ultimate question "Is any weapon legal?" .....


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## smithnwesson (Jul 14, 2009)

This is a really cool thread with a lot of good advice. 

As you might guess from my screen name, I'm a gun guy. If you're going to get a gun for self-defense, there's a couple of things to consider. You must be certain that you will be able to shoot someone if you have to, otherwise a gun isn't for you. You should get some formal training in learning how to shoot, how to be safe with guns, and about your state's gun laws -- most states have some really screwy ones.

As GregW and others have pointed out, the first and most important thing you can do is to pay attention to what's going on around you. 

It's called situational awareness. Col. Jeff Cooper listed four conditions of awareness:

*Condition White:* Going around with your head up your butt, like most all people do most all of the time. Day dreaming, yakking on the cell phone, day dreaming, etc.

*Condition Yellow:* Being relaxed but aware of your environment. You should be in this condition almost all of the time. You should be constantly vigilant for any signs of threatening behavior. (This is so rare that I've turned noticing other's in condition yellow into kind of a game. It's almost always cop, someone else carrying a concealed weapon, or a bad guy -- it's fun trying to guess which.)

*Condition Orange:* Just like Yellow, except you've identified a possible threat and are keeping an eye on him. You continue to be aware of other things -- so he buddies won't blind side you.

*Condition Red:* You're ready to act. You have determined a course of action and are ready to carry it out immediately. It doesn't mean that you've started fighting yet or even that you will have to.

A bad guy who watches you progress through the last three stages will most likely decide you're not the best choice for a victim and move on (otherwise his career will not be a lengthy or a happy one). If course, there's always crazy folks and those high on drugs/alcohol.

Here's an excellent essay on this. Reading it carefully might be the best advice you've ever had.

http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States of Awareness.htm

 - Jim


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## smithnwesson (Jul 14, 2009)

Why is it that my serious posts always look to me like something Francis Bacon would have been proud of -- until it's too late to edit them? Then I find wrong words, to/too problems, incorrect possessives, lists with repeated items, etc. Jesus!

At least, let me fix this one:

"Day dreaming, yakking on the cell phone, day dreaming, etc."

*~TO~*

"Day dreaming, yakking on the cell phone, gawking at fat girls, etc."

 - Jim


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## olwen (Jul 15, 2009)

Conditions yellow thru red sound like something every New Yorker probably already does.


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## blueeyedevie (Jul 16, 2009)

Seriously guys, For a 500 lbs lady how realistic is it to think that there is a class out there or a lesson that could , A. give her strength ( because frankly a water bottle is a challenge most of the time) B. give her protection skills and C. help her become more fit in the process. (IS there DVD's you recommend) because I don't see my self feeling comfortable going out doing this with a bunch of skinny people knowing I would never be able to keep up.


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## tonynyc (Jul 16, 2009)

blueeyedevie said:


> Seriously guys, For a 500 lbs lady how realistic is it to think that there is a class out there or a lesson that could , A. give her strength ( because frankly a water bottle is a challenge most of the time) B. give her protection skills and C. help her become more fit in the process. (IS there DVD's you recommend) because I don't see my self feeling comfortable going out doing this with a bunch of skinny people knowing I would never be able to keep up.



*Welcome To the Self Defense Thread Evie:*

*Is it realistic for a 500lbs lady to become fit, gain protection skills & gain strength? * *YES! YES! YES!*

*The power of your mind and self confidence will have you doing amazing things....*

*I'll just chime in with some insights and perhaps others can share their views.*

*1. You have to adapt the Martial Arts to you *
*The beauty is when you look at some clips on Youtube and you see folks that are physically challenged to wonderful things with the Arts.*

*2. You have to find the Art that you are comfy with.*
*It's not all about High Kicks ( I've seen Supersize folks do Jujitsu and weapons based systems like "Kali Silat" , "Kendo" ). Tai Chi which was mentioned previously is also excellent. It's what you are looking for in the Art you seek be it (Self Defense - Sport Fighting - Traditional Training)*

*3. Can You learn from DVDs -*
* Yes and No. DVD can be a reference point and ok for some techniques -but, to get a real understanding and the use of body mechanics nothing beats going to a studio. It gives you the chance to see what would work and not work for you and what could be modified. *

*4. Feeling Comfy & Confidence*
*It's about you and feeling empowered. Remember the one of the most feared thing that some of those students in school may have to deal with is the Supersized Person that can take care of themselves.

As far as Keeping up with everyone - it's about doing things to the best of your ability and improving bit by bit. Think of Exercise as a "Marathon" and not a "FootRace"

*

**** Check Pg 4 of my posting in this thread about "Shihan Roy Richmond" & on "CaneMasters"*

-------------------------------------------------------------

*Some Useful Threads Regarding Exercise here on DIMS* 

Favorite Types of Workouts 


 Daily Exercise Thread Diary


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## GregW (Jul 17, 2009)

On the subject of Jeff Cooper, here is something that I found on a site that has a collection of posts from a long-time, excellent Judo practitioner:

"There are 4 rules or 7 Cooper principles of personal protection (along with the color code) 

4 Rules: 

1. Never use booze to excess and avoid all persons or places that do. 

2. Do not use illegal drugs and avoid all persons and places where they are in use. 

3. Do not persue illicit sexual encounters

4. Stay out of "danger zones"."

I don't follow this to the letter but it is a good starting point for avoidance.


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## blueeyedevie (Jul 17, 2009)

Thank you Tonynyc, I am grateful for your reply. I have been looking for something that is going to work for me for awhile. I have been loosing weight for health reasons and frankly I needed exercise but mostly what I have been trying is hurting more than helping. So I will definitely be looking into all your suggestions, I need strength one, and two I would love to feel like I could protect myself if need be. 



> Welcome To the Self Defense Thread Evie:
> 
> Is it realistic for a 500lbs lady to become fit, gain protection skills & gain strength? YES! YES! YES!
> 
> ...


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## joswitch (Jul 17, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> My exposure to tai chi was very limited- I just attended six classes back when I was in college . At that time I was exposed to self defense techniques this later pushed my interest/knowledge more in the lines of ju-jitsu/atemi-waza etc.and my interest in tai chi waned;but, I could really appreciate the tai chi applications now.
> 
> I wonder of interest in certain arts breakdown by Gender and Age where....
> 
> ...



I watched that a couple of days ago.... good vid - seems a very well grounded chap.. which is important in Tai Chi - in both senses! 

When he was talking about the translation of the name as I recall T'ai Chi Ch'aun does indeed translate as Grand Ultimate Fist (where "Fist" = a fighting form) and he's spot on about the idea of remaking and representing his style as his own... martial arts masters including Tai Chi masters have been doing this for uncounted generations....

Just to give a wee summary of my "formal" i.e. dojo experience:
I got started back when I was a wee lad I had a go at Kung Fu in a week long course at my school - run by one of our physics teachers!
I tried Judo at the time - but as a bony and clumsy kid didn't enjoy all that falling down! (didn't really learn to breakfall til years later!)

- Tang shou do - in my hometown from age 14 to about 16
Tang shou do is a "hybrid" Chinese/Korean art, ostensibly an "internal" focussed art, but early training is all kicks, punches, blocks, stances - "external" stuff...

- Tai Chi - for a year or so in Cambridge at University there
(oh and western fencing as well)

- "white suit" Taijutsu - for a few months in High Wycombe 

big gap of about 7 years when all I really did was weight training and punch bag work...
I started looking around for a martial art to train in again around 2000
Tried a session at a Tae Kwon Do place - I wasn't keen (reasons below)

- Kendo for a few months in Reading

- Ninjutsu (specifically Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu) for about 4 years in Reading, Barcelona and on my travels in Vancouver, CAN and San Fran 

- Hapkido in La Paz B.C.S. Mexico for about 4 months
Hapkido is a hybrid of Japanese Aiki jutsu and Korean Tang shou do ? Tae kwon do

- Tai Chi - for a year or so in Reading again


from my somewhat eclectic jack-of-all-arts master of none (lol!) experience I picked up some *essential stuff *that *ahem* tested out well on the unfortunate ocassions in my adult life I found myself defending others or myself:

From Tang shou do *I* got:
- The importance of a stable "fighting stance" or if you like "HOW NOT TO FALL OVER"  and punching

From Tai Chi 
- more balance and fluidity of movement, a sense of groundedness in my body and how the WHOLE body moves to generate power - also crucially I began to read other people's bodies and balance

From "white suit" Taijutsu
- falling and rolling and getting straight up again! without hurting myself! 
- jumping kicks LOOK great, BUT while you are up in the air you cannot change direction, all your opponent needs do is step offline, wait for you to land and POW! (Learned that one with a good smack in the face from a girl I was sparring with - never forgot it) so don't do a jumping kick unless your opponent can't see you coming... but in general - avoid using!

From Ninjutsu, I could go on and on - this is very much the "thinking person's" martial art IMO and contains 9 schools (Ryu) but here's just the basics which came as a revelation to me at the time
- when someone strikes at you GET OUT OF THE ****IN' WAY!!! specifically MOVE *OFF THE LINE* OF THE ATTACK.... a small 45 degree step often puts you 1) out of the way of harm for the moment 2) in a position to counter attack..
Seriously all the korean stuff I'd done up until then had me standing and blocking the attack - but the thing about blocking is - what if the other guy is faster and/or stronger than you? Also blocking can injure your limbs (sure better that than your body or head, but if you're fighting multiple oponents it'll wear you down!)...
- KEEP MOVING / WALKING - it's hard to hit a moving target! very useful.. really comes into it's own in the multiple attackers scenario...
- USE THE FOOT STAMP / TRAP (I mentioned this above) it's pure GOLD in so many situations!
- all kinds of locks and throws and weapons 
- a FLEXIBILITY of mind - never to become fixated on the one technique you first had in mind, but be ready to "flow" into something else and by all means stick however many strikes into a lock/throw/break technique as you wish/can...


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## joswitch (Jul 17, 2009)

blueeyedevie said:


> Thank you Tonynyc, I am grateful for your reply. I have been looking for something that is going to work for me for awhile. I have been loosing weight for health reasons and frankly I needed exercise but mostly what I have been trying is hurting more than helping. So I will definitely be looking into all your suggestions, I need strength one, and two I would love to feel like I could protect myself if need be.



Hi Evie! re. building up you r basic strength and movement Carrie put a terrific post on the Health board about how she rebuilt her strenngth and mobilty with aqua physio and swimming... I recommend aqua/swim to everyone and especially big folks! as it combines cardio and resistance but most of all protects joints and reduces injury risk!


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## joswitch (Jul 17, 2009)

smithnwesson said:


> This is a really cool thread with a lot of good advice.
> 
> As you might guess from my screen name, I'm a gun guy. If you're going to get a gun for self-defense, there's a couple of things to consider. You must be certain that you will be able to shoot someone if you have to, otherwise a gun isn't for you. You should get some formal training in learning how to shoot, how to be safe with guns, and about your state's gun laws -- most states have some really screwy ones.
> 
> ...



Props to Jeff Cooper! Great points!


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## joswitch (Jul 17, 2009)

Just a few points from my own *direct* experience (especially my mistakes! lol!) both being beaten up as a kid and successfully defending others/myself as an adult (on three separate occasions over the last 15years... )

DON'T take on ***holes you don't have to - if you're in a club/bar and someone is obviously causing trouble/harassing people, move discretely away if you can and get the doorstaff to throw them out... (and if I'd thought of that all those years ago I'd have one less scar hidden under my hair from getting hit with that bottle! Doh!)

KEEP a "guard" up around your head / face and your chin tucked in....

DON'T "lean" on your punches! or to put it another way DON'T point your fist and fall over on the end of it! stay on balance!

DO NOT try to "run away backwards" from an attacker...*
imagine a foot race - one guy runs facing forward, one runs facing backwards - who wins?
MOVE OFF THE LINE - step to the side... counter...

THE HUMAN HEAD IS LIKE A STEERING WHEEL - if you get chance GRAB it and turn it and control the direction of movement of your opponent... and closely linked - THE WALL HITS HARDER THAN YOU DO - slam the attacker's head into wall, why hurt your hand if you don't have to?

IF SOMEONE GRABS YOU AROUND THE FACE (they may be about to head-twist-throw you or headlock you) if you can - BITE THEM! HARD AS YOU CAN! it worked for me... in a very unpleasant two-on-me street attack with my mate already knocked out cold on the ground... (I expect that one fella still has my teeth-marks in him a decade on.... Oh and my mate lived - I reckon I bought him 20seconds *less* of being kicked in the head...)


(*N.B. this is one of my issues with Tae Kwon Do sparring - my only experience of such - and I'm open to being corrected on this! was in a session at my Hapkido dojo, where the sensei had us abandon the street-wise hapkido and prep for a Tae Kwon Do tournament [loads of TKD in Mexcio] and insisted we run backwards on the line! Doh!)


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## joswitch (Jul 17, 2009)

Summing up my 2cents (besides points already made re. Canne masters etc. ) and my *opinion*:

If I was a BHM or BBW and I was going from a sedentary / relatively poor strength condition (and I know some big folks are strong and fit so you can ignore this top bit!) then I would avoid as _starting points_:

Tae Kwon Do as it places an unduly heavy emphasis on aerobic fitness... IMO
I would expect Muay Tai (kick boxing) to have similar emphasis...
N.B. sparring/tournament fights can last a long time, but most RL incidents are over in *seconds* - this is not to say aerobic fitness isn't useful, it's just not _primary_ in self defence...

I would *recommend* building up your basic strength / mobility / endurance with aqua/swimming and Tai Chi to improve your balance / body awareness

and any of (one or more)

Judo - terrific if you are short and stocky with a low centre of gravity!

Aikido - ditto and then some!

Hapkido - like Aikido with kicking and striking - Korean influence so requires a bit more agility and more "aerobic"

Ju-jutsu or Tai jutsu

Ninjutsu (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu) - much in common with Aikido, but with a *whole lot* else besides, *especially* striking!


----------



## Carrie (Jul 17, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Judo - terrific if you are short and stocky with a low centre of gravity!
> 
> Aikido - ditto and then some!


What about for us tall fatties? Am I to just stand around waiting for a short fatty to come along and beat the crap out of me using judo? 



Oh, wait, that's not what this thread is about. :blush:


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 17, 2009)

Carrie said:


> What about for us tall fatties? Am I to just stand around waiting for a short fatty to come along and beat the crap out of me using judo?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, wait, that's not what this thread is about. :blush:



*
Carrie moves like a true Ninja and with her greater reach and new found strength and fitness she fights like the small person (Visualizes herself as 4' 11" ) and truly wipe out the shorter fighter    

-------------------

All kidding aside -much would depend on what you were dealing with and what your opponent was bringing to "the dance" . The fact that you are tall ( I recall at least 6') can bring much intimidation to the table.... 
*


----------



## Carrie (Jul 17, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *
> Carrie moves like a true Ninja and with her greater reach and new found strength and fitness she fights like the small person (Visualizes herself as 4' 11" ) and truly wipe out the shorter fighter    *


*
Hah! You're a piece of work, Tony. 


tonynyc said:



-------------------
All kidding aside -much would depend on what you were dealing with and what your opponent was bringing to "the dance" . The fact that you are tall ( I recall at least 6') can bring much intimidation to the table.... 

Click to expand...

*Close, 5'11". And that's an excellent point - I've definitely been in some situations where I think my combined height and girth protected me from involvement in the, ah, "dance". Still, though, would be nice to have some supercool martial arts moves in my pocket to bust out if needed.


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 17, 2009)

Carrie said:


> Hah! You're a piece of work, Tony.
> 
> Close, 5'11". And that's an excellent point - I've definitely been in some situations where I think my combined height and girth protected me from involvement in the, ah, "dance". Still, though, would be nice to have some supercool martial arts moves in my pocket to bust out if needed.



*
In terms of specific "moves" many times it's just keeping things simple. What I've seen displayed in some of the "Expert Village" clips on YouTube are things that has been either questionable or makes sense...See additional points I added to Joswitch's comment. 

Also- what is nice about the Martial Arts is that once you find the style that you enjoy... how do u incoporate it to everyday life ; for example, your workouts in the pool.... 

Questionable Technique: Too many moves and some may not work

Self Defense for Women Knife Jab


Better Technique vs. the Knife Jab


Israeli Knife Defense  

*





joswitch said:


> Summing up my 2cents (besides points already made re. Canne masters etc. ) and my *opinion*:
> 
> If I was a BHM or BBW and I was going from a sedentary / relatively poor strength condition (and I know some big folks are strong and fit so you can ignore this top bit!) then I would avoid as _starting points_:
> 
> ...



*

Just adding to your points Joswitch- again my influence was from Self Defense Classes and Kenpo 


JuJitsu (esepcially when it comes to learning the striking techniques Atemi Waza)

Combat JuJitsu

Hapkido (especially for the use of the Cane in Self Defense; though Canemansters covers this exclusively) 

Kenpo/Kajukenbo/Lima Lima [joint breaking/Polynesian Art]

Krav Maga 

Weapons Training

Kendo/Kenjitsu? (Japanese Sword -but, concepts can translate to utilizing a rolled up newspaper)

Kali Silat (Filipino Weapons Fighting) 

*


----------



## GregW (Jul 18, 2009)

This is becoming one of my favorite threads!

My wife has taught an exercise class "Women of Size" for the last several years. They are geared toward women over a size 20 or over 200 lbs. but they will allow other members in class if enrollment count permits. The program features water aerobics and yoga, and both of these activities are terrific for someone who wants to increase their fitness level! Swimming, IMO, is probably the best exercise activity on the planet. Neither of these activities are directly related to self-defense, but they can increase your fitness to the point to where you can get more out of MA/combat sports.

I first studied Judo in 1988, and I've done it intermittentlly since then. I'm 5'8, ~145 lbs, muscular build but not a bodybuilder, with little body fat. About what you'd see in the typical wrestler in the 145 lb. weight class. One thing I emphasize to people is that almost anyone, short/tall, fat/skinny, male/female, etc. can become a good grappler if they practice. Personally, I'd say that short, stocky body types seem to do better than the tall, lanky types at a beginner level, but this quickly evens out as the tall person learns to use his/her body as a reach advantage. And I'd much rather play they lanky guy than the short and solid guy - I like to grab the long arms and legs and try for a pick up. It is a full-contact combat sport with lots of falling, so I would watch a class and speak with an instructor before taking part if that is what anyone with fitness concerns decides to do. 

I have never taken Krav Maga, but I think that it would be a good place to start if one was looking for decent basics for self-defense.


----------



## olwen (Jul 18, 2009)

Jo, posts 113, 116, and 117 are full of great info for folks who will have to fight, but not really helpful to a midsize or supersized BBW who is likely to know how to avoid getting into a fight in the first place. 

The minute you spot trouble you leave the area as fast as you can and/or get someone to find a bouncer or security guard. People aren't likely to engage us close up, they'd be more likely to throw stuff at us. 

The kind of knowledge that would be helpful is to know to avoid a mugging or a gang rape attack. The question is really, if someone points a gun or a knife at you or a bunch of scary looking guys surround you, what do you do? Running isn't much of an option if you walk with a cane or if you don't walk with a cane but you still have bad joints. 

To recap, some good points have been: 

a) DON'T PANIC! Try to stay calm so you can think. If they point a gun or a knife at you, just give em your purse.

b) make loud vocalizations like "NO!" or "STAY AWAY!" or "F-YOU!" Just make a lot of noise since it will put the attacker(s) off guard and give you a chance to get the hell out of there. ( I know from experience that this works)

c) pretend to faint, or pretend to have a heart attack, and land on your purse

d) If you carry a cane, learn to use it to defend yourself if need be

e) avoid darkly lit lonely places if you can. If not get someone to walk you to your car, or have someone pick you up while you wait in a well lit area with other people around.

f) if your state/region allows it, carry pepper spray, a taser, or a gun. Make sure you know the laws in your state for carrying such weapons on your person. 

g) if you are fairly mobile and agile, take a martial arts class and don't worry about being the biggest person there. You might not be able to keep up with everybody else, but you can take what you learn and practice at home, and your size could be an advantage when sparring.

h) martial arts, et all that fat people might enjoy and/or be able to do and to use for self-defense if need be: 
- Self defense classes for women
- Tai chi
- Qi-gong 
- boxing
- hapkido
- Kendo (also Fencing, which I've done and enjoyed, and yes you do need breast plates. They may not cover all your boob, but position them where you think you are likely to be poked)
- individual weapons training.
- any martial art that will improve your balance (highly important if you have bad joints), and build up your upper body strength.


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 18, 2009)

olwen said:


> Jo, posts 113, 116, and 117 are full of great info for folks who will have to fight, but not really helpful to a midsize or supersized BBW who is likely to know how to avoid getting into a fight in the first place.
> 
> The minute you spot trouble you leave the area as fast as you can and/or get someone to find a bouncer or security guard. People aren't likely to engage us close up, they'd be more likely to throw stuff at us.
> 
> The kind of knowledge that would be helpful is to know to avoid a mugging or a gang rape attack. The question is really, if someone points a gun or a knife at you or a bunch of scary looking guys surround you, what do you do? Running isn't much of an option if you walk with a cane or if you don't walk with a cane but you still have bad joints.



*
I would only disagree to the point that "Yes" at all means avoid a confrontation;but, there can be instances where one can encounter the crazed asshole that really doesn't care what you are trying to avoid -but, hell bent in hurting you anyway And the sad reality is that you have to pray that bystander(s) wants to get involved or would rather sit back and enjoy the show...

It's all about perception- let's say that the individual that is hell bent on hurting you percieves you as helpless... That is you advantage when you have the skills, cool head and confidence to do what you need to do...

It all comes down to one's life experience and what you feel the appropiate response to a given situation... Unfortunately,
There is no set answer...

Should one challenge someone with a Gun? No not worth it?

Should you challenge someone with a Blunt Instrument (Knife, Scissors, ScrewDriver)? Yes and No depends on the scenario. If someone is dertemined to hurt you "regardless" then your self preservation instincts kick in..  

Gang Attack? Depends and depends if a given system preps one for it(but) it's all about the given scenario, your reaction, too many variables to consider...

Never look at your size as a limitation-you modify the Arts to fit you....Here are some inspirational Martial Artist to look at..*

Robert Ott Blind Martial Artist

*Robert Ott's website*

*www.certainvictory.com*

=========================================

Disabled Martial Arts- Bo Staff Technique 

=================================

Cane Defense for Elderly 

================================

*

Problem now is that there are so many Martial Arts to choose from and DVDs (good and bad) to sort through....

I think that one thing for large folks to consider to the Ratio of kicking and pounching.
Know my breakdown is only an approximation- perhaps others can chime in on this... 

1. Some Arts like Tae Kwon Do could be 70% Kicking 30% hand techniques

2. Wing Chung could be 70% Hand Techniques and 30% Kicking

3. Some could emphasize Low Kicks - some High Kicks. It's all a journey to see what works. 

*

*
I was reading a Martial Arts book by JuJitsu Master , Norman Leff *







*
I like the quote that Master Leff states when it comes to learning the Arts...

"When I first began studying Jui-Jitsu I was only interested in learning how to defend myself. My interest at the present time, more than 50 years later, remains the same. I can truthfully state that I consider myself a self defense student. Perhaps I am an advanced student but, nevertheless, still a student who continues to learn more about this craft".

*


----------



## Jon Blaze (Jul 19, 2009)

"The impressive stuff is not effective. The effective stuff is not impressive."


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 19, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> "The impressive stuff is not effective. The effective stuff is not impressive."



*
Jon: where did u get this great quote from ? 
*


----------



## LillyBBBW (Jul 19, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> Jon Blaze said:
> 
> 
> > "The impressive stuff is not effective. The effective stuff is not impressive."
> ...



I agree Tony, I like it too!


----------



## blueeyedevie (Jul 19, 2009)

Hi, I have to admit, I would spend every summer when I was in Louisiana in the pool doing swimming and exercising. It was my only way to exercise. It felt great. However those months were short and in the past years Rained out. Now that I am not in Louisiana I know there is resource that I didn't have in Louisiana but I guess being small town girl I don't know how to find out how to access them plus get over being shy. I would love to take aqua exercise classes. I did once while visiting a friend and I loved it. 



joswitch said:


> Hi Evie! re. building up you r basic strength and movement Carrie put a terrific post on the Health board about how she rebuilt her strenngth and mobilty with aqua physio and swimming... I recommend aqua/swim to everyone and especially big folks! as it combines cardio and resistance but most of all protects joints and reduces injury risk!


----------



## joswitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Carrie said:


> What about for us tall fatties? Am I to just stand around waiting for a short fatty to come along and beat the crap out of me using judo?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, wait, that's not what this thread is about. :blush:



Gah! sorry I didn't phrase that very well! I'm 6'2" and was a very spindly kid when I tried judo - tended to hit the ground like a sack o'bones - didn't like it... My friends that I know who are bang into judo are both short stocky guys and it works well for them.... because a low centre of gravity can be an advantage in throwing arts....

What I found helped as I got older and started doing the various taijutsu's I trained in, which have throws in along with everything else... was building up my leg and body core strength, this really helps with the whole moving-with-your-knees-kept bent which lowers your centre of gravity and stabilises your stance in other ways (is also good for the knees as it builds up the quads and helps stabilise and take pressure off the joints)... after years of doing it I find that i move this way most of the time now - especially in "condition orange" situations or above...

You're already on the right track building your leg/core strength so all good! 
I'd mix in Tai Chi next if you fancy it? also good for legs/core.... 

Further it's been my experience that most people who attack others are not martial artists in anyway...and the few that are tend to have a few kicking/punching techniques rather than being grapplers... In all the attacks I've had the misfortune to witness over here in Boozy Britain I've never seen a judoka initiate an attack on someone else (where judo does have RL application it tends to be more defensive than offensive because of the need to get up real close)....

And further still - if you are tall you have a longer reach so strikes, *especially with weapons* (cane, brolly) and evasive movement can work well to keep a grappler at a distance - as can THROWING STUFF! (anything!) 

and further further further (sorry I've had a beer, elegant language out the window! lol!) certainly ninjutsu incorporated specific anti-judo techniques and I suspect most of the jutsu's mentioned above and aikido would do too..


----------



## joswitch (Jul 19, 2009)

blueeyedevie said:


> Hi, I have to admit, I would spend every summer when I was in Louisiana in the pool doing swimming and exercising. It was my only way to exercise. It felt great. However those months were short and in the past years Rained out. Now that I am not in Louisiana I know there is resource that I didn't have in Louisiana but I guess being small town girl I don't know how to find out how to access them plus get over being shy. I would love to take aqua exercise classes. I did once while visiting a friend and I loved it.



I don't know if any of this is helpful??
9 public swimming pools on Long Island (sorry I expect it's a big place, eh?)
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...w&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=

10 aqua aerobics
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...and+usa+public+aqua+aerobics&btnG=Search+Maps

sorry if you already thought of that (again had beer, brain not so shiny!)

Re. the shyness bit... there was some discussion in carrie's thread in the health board about this as I recall????


----------



## joswitch (Jul 19, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *
> In terms of specific "moves" many times it's just keeping things simple. What I've seen displayed in some of the "Expert Village" clips on YouTube are things that has been either questionable or makes sense...See additional points I added to Joswitch's comment.
> 
> Also- what is nice about the Martial Arts is that once you find the style that you enjoy... how do u incoporate it to everyday life ; for example, your workouts in the pool....
> ...



That's some good experience there Tony! - I have friends who I have a lot of respect for as martial artists who have very good things to say about both Jujitsu and Krav Maga.... also the Russian art Systema (spelling?)

You mention Kali / Silat - I've read stuff about this and it sounded very interesting! what's been your experience on this?? like any general principles or recommendations?


----------



## joswitch (Jul 19, 2009)

olwen said:


> Jo, posts 113, 116, and 117 are full of great info for folks who will have to fight, but not really helpful to a midsize or supersized BBW who is likely to know how to avoid getting into a fight in the first place.
> *
> The minute you spot trouble you leave the area as fast as you can and/or get someone to find a bouncer or security guard*.



Yes, absolutely! it's true that awareness and avoidance is a HUGE part of self-defence... If not MOST OF self-defence!

I should have bolded in my post above my point re. using doorstaff (security) wherever available/practicable.... which I personally learnt at the cost of some injury...:doh:

A couple more points re. awareness and avoidance when walking out and about:

- Learn to watch not only with your peripheral vision but also reflections in windows - allowing you to monitor someone you get a bad vibe off without having to make eye contact...

- If lighting allows, make use of shadows to monitor what goes on behind you...

-As you walk in a street make use of street furniture (benches, lamposts, signs, phone booths etc.) and even parked vehicles as a "passive defence / test of intent" by picking a route that puts these obstacles between you and anyone that you have "tagged" as a possible aggressor... Making it hard for them to follow you / get close without making their intent obvious....

If that sounds paranoid to you - I have spent a LOT of my life walking through towns/cities in the middle of the night! Many aggressive drunks about!

If it makes you less worried you can kind of make a "game" out of it in your head - "just how aware can I be of my environment?" if you see what I mean...





> People aren't likely to engage us close up, they'd be more likely to throw stuff at us.



I recently heard a stat that young men under 25 are 7 times more likely to be physically assaulted than anyone else... I'd still want to have some kind of simple "contingency plan" though...

Re. Throwing stuff - ***holes like to throw stuff at you from cars I 've found.. my BBW ex once had some moron throw a full beer can at her from a passing car!!! 
Again keeping objects/distance between you and the road where possible...

Oh and note to burly FAs - back in the day a gentleman would walk on the roadside of the pavement (sidewalk) to protect his lady from mud splashed from cab wheels... Nowadays I walk on the roadside to protect my lady from passing random ***holes throwing things... 


Olwen I'm sorry I didn't properly contextualize my posts above - these are principles and simple "techniques" that I have found useful in real life - in those situations where I have HAD to fight IN ORDER TO ESCAPE... or to protect an unconcious mate from being kicked to death...

Which reminds me - if you have someone visiting you who tends to be loudmouthed, overconfident and clueless, or even just clueless  I think it's worth saying in advance:
"Look I don't want you to worry but there are some nasty types in this town - and I've learned what to look out for - so if I suddenly turn to you and say 'we're leaving NOW!' please don't ask why or argue, please just keep moving until we are far away and safe... I'll be happy to explain to you AFTER we are out and away. Thanks."

Back to contextualizing those tips o'mine: 
There might be situations when escape would leave someone you care about in danger, or where you cannot turn your back on an attacker safely until you have neutralised them, even very temporarily, and/or when you are attacked where there is nowhere to run to (e.g. when I was once attacked by two guys right outside my home... yes, they were drunk! at 3pm!) ... And there might be situations where despite your awareness you are caught, perhaps grabbed by surprise... I sincerely hope none of you ever have to deal with these but that's why I posted about the FOOT STAMP and SHOVE....and the BITING and the HEAD SLAM because these might buy you the time to ESCAPE... 

That's the context I meant to put those things in....



> The kind of knowledge that would be helpful is to know to avoid a mugging or a gang rape attack. The question is really, if someone points a gun or a knife at you or a bunch of scary looking guys surround you, what do you do? Running isn't much of an option if you walk with a cane or if you don't walk with a cane but you still have bad joints.
> 
> To recap, some good points have been:
> 
> ...



YES! Further, DO carry a DECOY wallet/purse/money roll...



> c) pretend to faint, or pretend to have a heart attack, and land on your purse



I've seen this posted a few times in the thread - I think this comes from the idea that *your attackers are thinking rationally* i.e. that a mugger *just* wants your purse.... and I'm sorry to say that my observation of attacks has been that *most attackers are NOT thinking rationally*... 

Again it may be an artefact of Britons' 3,000 year tradition of getting drunk and beating one another!  but I've seen so many people being kicked and stamped on once on the floor here in Boozy Britain (happened to me once as a kid - NOT a good experience). A kick in the head can be fatal. Even if non-fatal I've seen the aftermath in the A&E (Emergency Room in USA) when my mate took a kicking. Pretty damn nasty. Not even the physical but the emotional (post)trauma.

So I would say *DO NOT "GO-TO-GROUND" IF YOU CAN POSSIBLY HELP IT *and also if you cannot get away straight away and cannot placate your attacker with your purse/wallet/phone then *SCREAM AND FIGHT LIKE HELL UNTIL YOU CAN GET AWAY*. You may still be injured, but I think your chances of survival and escape will be higher, and very importantly and this from experience - the emotional fallout from a situtation where you defended yourself and survived is waaaaaaaay less than if you passively "took a beating".

That's my advice, on the "playing-possum" tactic for what it's worth. You may disagree. :bow: (I'm not saying that it might not work in *some *situations with *some *attackers, perhaps with purely money-motivated muggers... )



> d) If you carry a cane, learn to use it to defend yourself if need be


I'd say even if you *don't have to carry one* - DO learn cane based techniques and always carry a cane or an sturdy /unbreakable umbrella in your hand, when you can, when walking. It's surprising how just having such a weapon in your hand deters agressors from considering you as a target! both from its presence and also from the air of confidence you exude because of it!



> f) if your state/region allows it, carry pepper spray, a taser, or a gun. Make sure you know the laws in your state for carrying such weapons on your person.



Totally! Here in the UK unfortunately Big Brother prefers it's subjects unarmed and afraid!


----------



## joswitch (Jul 19, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> "The impressive stuff is not effective. The effective stuff is not impressive."



Truth. :bow:


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 19, 2009)

joswitch said:


> That's some good experience there Tony! - I have friends who I have a lot of respect for as martial artists who have very good things to say about both Jujitsu and Krav Maga.... also the Russian art Systema (spelling?)
> 
> You mention Kali / Silat - I've read stuff about this and it sounded very interesting! what's been your experience on this?? like any general principles or recommendations?



I don't have Kali/Silat, Escrima experience. There were just basic moves that I would do in class-but, nothing as extensive as those who have concentrated on this system only. However, I do enjoy reading about this Art and I was skimming through a few books in Borders . One is by  Mark V. Wiley 

The Secrets of Cabales Serrada Escrima. It's a system that I would love to explore further at some future time. 


Now the book has had mixed reviews - especially from former Masters who trained under the late Grandmaster Angel Cabales-but, gives much insight and history. The first 'public' school opened in 1966 by Grandmaster Cabales in California. 

I can't find the exact passage ;but, do recall a story that actions of late mass murder Richard Speck influenced many Escrima Masters to open their system to the public. Richard Speck had killed several nursing students in the Midwest in 1966. Cora (Corazon) Amurao,the lone survivor of that horrific attack, was a young Filipina Nursing Student.


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## tonynyc (Aug 7, 2009)

*BUMP*

** Will list other areas for now saw this school in NYC 


Date: April 01, 2009 through December 31, 2009 
Hours: 7:30pm 
Ages: Tween, Teen, Adult 
Price: FREE 

Address: 
33-50 82nd St - 646-335-6465 
Jackson Heights , NY 11372 


Description: Kids over 10 and adults can enroll in these free self-defense classes every Wednesday. Enrollment is on a rolling basis and always open. Come observe the class. Please contact 646-335-6465 or [email protected] yahoo.com. 

Upcoming Events at St. Marks: 


Self-Defense - Children ages 10+ and adults - 04/15/09 - 12/31/09 

 Mkekado School of Karate Kickboxing & Self Defense

-------------------------


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## olwen (Aug 17, 2009)

I recently found out about this AWESOME free service in New York City called Right Rides. On friday and saturday nights from 11:59pm - 3am, if you are a woman, GLBTQ or trans and you are alone or in groups of 2-3, someone from this service will pick you up and take you home if you live in the areas they service. If you are in certain areas in brooklyn and you want to walk home, then Safe Walk will pick you up and a team of women on bikes will walk with you to your apartment to make sure you get home safe. I asked one of the bikers about her safety since they are all women volunteers and she said they have found that as long as they ride in teams they are safe. They never ride alone. So that is something else to consider. If it is late at night and you want to get home safe, go in a group whenever possible. 

I'm sorry I only know of this program in New York City, but there may be equivalent programs in other major cities and if you live in another city, maybe look into starting one up. They are a non-profit and all the people involved are volunteers. 

They also offer low cost self defense classes, so if you are in the city don't be afraid to call up and ask if they can teach fat folks. I will likely do that tomorrow afternoon anyway and see what they say and report back. Here is the list of topics they teach (from their website):

*About the classes*
Just some of the topics you will learn: 
BASIC VERBAL and PHYSICAL SELF-DEFENSE SKILLS
BOUNDARY SETTING and INTUITION TRAINING
RISK ASSESSMENT
THE LANGUAGE and CYCLE OF VIOLENCE
SELF-CONFIDENCE


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## tonynyc (Aug 17, 2009)

olwen said:


> I recently found out about this AWESOME free service in New York City called Right Rides. On friday and saturday nights from 11:59pm - 3am, if you are a woman, GLBTQ or trans and you are alone or in groups of 2-3, someone from this service will pick you up and take you home if you live in the areas they service. If you are in certain areas in brooklyn and you want to walk home, then Safe Walk will pick you up and a team of women on bikes will walk with you to your apartment to make sure you get home safe. I asked one of the bikers about her safety since they are all women volunteers and she said they have found that as long as they ride in teams they are safe. They never ride alone. So that is something else to consider. If it is late at night and you want to get home safe, go in a group whenever possible.
> 
> I'm sorry I only know of this program in New York City, but there may be equivalent programs in other major cities and if you live in another city, maybe look into starting one up. They are a non-profit and all the people involved are volunteers.
> 
> ...



*
Olwen: great find- you'll have to give your insights on thier program ...

As far as other states and low cost classes ... One might contact the local...
Or just do A Google Search on Free/Low Cost Classes 

Womens Self Defense Institute

Police Department

Guardian Angels
*


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## smithnwesson (Aug 18, 2009)

Shoot the fucker.


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## tonynyc (Aug 18, 2009)

smithnwesson said:


> Shoot the fucker.



*Is that Pooch a crack shot *


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## smithnwesson (Aug 19, 2009)

It's a slow night at work.  -Jim


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## tonynyc (Aug 19, 2009)

smithnwesson said:


> It's a slow night at work.  -Jim



*Jim: LOL oh shit - a Pistol Packing Pooch - I have to send you some rep for this (out of rep at the moment) this made my day .... Dirty Harry Watch out... * :happy:


====================================






*These 4 legged critters can be dangerous- u never know when you have to whip out the old reliable "Sleeper Hold" as in this photo *


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## smithnwesson (Aug 25, 2009)

This is for ya'll, Tony and joswitch.  -Jim


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## tonynyc (Aug 25, 2009)

smithnwesson said:


> This is for ya'll, Tony and joswitch.  -Jim



*That was hilarious down to the final kick  *-


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## tonynyc (Oct 2, 2009)

**** BUMP ****

*This is one article that is sure to bring plenty of discussion among the various MA practioners & fans. See link below(videoclips are presented for each of the arts) Six Deadliest Martial Arts.*


*
1.Krav Maga
2.Eskrima
3.Silat
4.Marine Corps Martial Arts Program," or "MCMAP
5.Muay Thai 
6.Sambo
*


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## tonynyc (Oct 1, 2013)

**BUMP ****

*This is from a blog on which style is best suited by body type *

If youre big and husky, youre probably going to lack in the speed department. To compensate for the lack of speed youll probably have higher strength and endurance. For those attributes, you should try close range styles which emphasizes a lot on grappling and wrestling.

Some examples of styles would be: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, Aiki Jiu-Jitsu, Competition Sambo, Submission Wrestling, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Gaidojutsu, and Judo.

Those styles are only effective at close range. Also the creators of the respective styles said that when using them, prepare to get hit. Youre going to have to get up close and personal for the grapple. Dont discount the possibility that your opponent knows what youre attempting to do. Theres a high chance s/he will know and will try to stop you with strikes or a counter-grapple.

Jiu-Jitsu was created over a thousand years ago in Japan because the samurai couldnt punch and kick while wearing the heavy armor. The style would teach people to disarm soldiers in battle. When using Jiu-Jitsu on the battlefield, one would have to expect to get cut and/or stabbed.

Its the same with Aikido, you would have to prepare to get cut. Aikido was a style spawned off from Jiu-Jitsu. The application of Aikido is used to counter strikes and weapon attacks. You have to prepare to get hit and get cut.

If you have a low constitution (how much pain you can take), youre not going to fare well up close at your opponent. If you have a lot of muscle, youre pretty much well protected unless its against another person with the same physique. The chances you can take those hits are pretty good.

But if you insist on taking a striking style, take up Muay Thai or Lethwei. Muay Thai is a very effective form of Kickboxing let alone being one of the most brutal styles of martial arts. A good number of strikes can be done at close range providing maximum damage to your opponent. Lethwei is the Burmese variation where youre also allowed to headbutt your opponent which is absent in Muay Thai.

Still either form is a good style to take in regards to striking in a close quarters combat situation. Also, you can supplement Muay Thai/Lethwei with styles like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Wrestling, etc. Many UFC and Pride fighters do the same thing.

Tall people whom are at least 65 and up would make better strikers due to the long arms and legs. When I mean tall, think about the tall basketball players. Theyve got good kicking reach with their legs which is crucial for playing the distance game with a smaller opponent. You can keep them at bay by poking them repeatedly with kicks. For this reason, its a good idea for tall people to take up styles like Jeet Kune Do, Karate, Muay Thai, Savate, and other striking arts.

Dont discount the length of your arms. If youre tall, you got pretty good arm length which enables for a good reach. Asides from kicks, taller people tend to have more punching range.

Its not a bad idea to take up a grappling style or two just in case youre going up against someone the same height as you or taller. Shorter people tend to make better grapplers because left effort is needed to execute leg takedowns where you lift up by the leg. This is where the striking part comes in. A grapplers biggest mistake is attempting to shoot down on a Muay Thai fighter and attempt to do a leg takedown. The Muay Thai fighter doesnt have to do anything but throw a hard strike upwards.

However, its hard for a tall person to grapple with a shorter person. In the case of doing a leg takedown, you have to put forth more effort such as kneeling downwards. When I took Japanese Shootfighting which uses a lot of leg takedowns, I had to put forth a lot of effort in executing single-leg takedowns.

But if youre tall and very built, go with the wrestling styles. Go for the powerhouse wrestling styles such as Greco-Roman and Pankration. When taking on a smaller opponent head on the obvious winner will be you due to the size, weight, and mass difference.

A person 6&#8242; and under tend to make better submissionists because they can easily maneuver against bigger opponents. This is the case of making your weaknesses into your strengths. If youre smaller, it makes you more mobile. Being shorter than your opponent is an advantage when it comes to grappling because you dont have to put forth much effort in take downs. However, its not necessarily the case when going up against an opponent with Thai Boxing experience.

Still, shorter people should take up grappling styles. If youre short and muscular, take up Judo and Wrestling. If youre short and skinny, take up Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Aiki Jiu-Jitsu, and Aikido. The creator of Brazilian/Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was short and frail. Despite his height and weight, he could take on just about anybody with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

If youre flexible like a wire, take up styles like Lucha-Libre, Wu Shu, Jeet Kune Do, and Capoeira. Those styles require a good amount of flexibility and agility.

I currently weight 185 lbs and stand at 511-6&#8242;. If youre of a medium muscular build, youre pretty much well rounded and can learn just about any style. I do my best to keep my weight in check because it will affect how well I will perform in my respective disciplines.

A person with a perfect balance of height, weight, and build can learn all sorts of mixed martial arts styles like Japanese Shootfighting, Vale Tudo, Green Beret, and Krav Maga.

You can learn whatever style(s) you want. But your height and weight will affect the difficulty.

If youre very big and want to learn Nin-Jitsu or Karate, tone down your body. If you want to take up Greco-Roman, bulk up your body. If you want to take up Capoiera, work on your flexibility. If you want to take up Muay Thai, strengthen your legs.

How you want your height, weight, and body to affect your overall learning is up to you.


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## Tracyarts (Oct 1, 2013)

The advice I was given in terms of self defense as a woman living in a huge city was the following:

1.) Don't look like an easy target. Keep my head up, gaze focused, move with purpose and power, do not make eye contact. Cross-body purse instead of a bag on my shoulder or in the crook of my arm, and keys in hand. Stick to areas with a good amount of people and/or traffic, and employ safety in numbers whenever possible. 

2.) If approached or followed, do not acknowledge or make eye contact, continue moving with purpose and power, but try and get to an area with people, into a store or other business, or to a bus or Metro stop. If buildings are around, watch reflection in windows to keep an eye on the person in question. Reposition keys in hand so that the biggest and nastiest key can be jabbed with. Or get stun gun/pepper spray out of purse and in the ready to use position just in case. 

3.) If the person approaching makes a move to attack, just fucking lose it on them and attack first with intent to do great bodily harm. Scream like a demon from Hell with fists in the air, and go for their face, groin, armpits, and insteps. Stomp, claw, gouge, kick, beat, and wrench, whatever it takes to use your body to ward them off, incapacitate them until bystanders call for help, or until they can no longer go after you and you can get away. Gouge their eyes, try and literally dig their eyballs out of the socket, try and rip their ears off of their head, try to break their fingers, try to kick or knee in the groin, gouge the front upper armpit, there's a pressure point there that hurts like a MoFo. Gouge their neck under their jaw, that hurts like a MoFo too. Bash them in the temple with your thumb knuckle/side of fist. Stomp their instep, grab onto and gouge the inside of their elbow as hard as you can. If you have nails, claw their face and neck with the intent to peel flesh away. 

I know this sounds extreme, but the one time I had to actually face a physical attacker, I yelled like a demon and while he stood there stunned, I slammed him in the temple with my thumb knuckle and dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Then while he was on the ground, kicked him as hard as I could in the crotch and kidneys to make sure he wouldn't jump up and chase me.


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## loopytheone (Oct 2, 2013)

Tracyarts said:


> I know this sounds extreme, but the one time I had to actually face a physical attacker, I yelled like a demon and while he stood there stunned, I slammed him in the temple with my thumb knuckle and dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Then while he was on the ground, kicked him as hard as I could in the crotch and kidneys to make sure he wouldn't jump up and chase me.



You are AMAZING.


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