# Wait Watchers



## Surlysomething (Nov 14, 2014)

I think this project really captures how a lot of fat people are treated when they're just out living their lives.

People suck.

I'm a very head strong, independent, outspoken woman and if I catch people staring at me they get a stare down right back or a "what the #@*$ are you looking at" but I realize a lot of people aren't comfortable doing that or feel shame. I wish these STARING life losers would called out more about it though. I really do.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Nov 14, 2014)

Do you ever wonder why so many people are so fixated on changing _other_ people?


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## Surlysomething (Nov 14, 2014)

Insecurity, jealousy, narcissism and the main one, they're complete and utter assholes.



Dr. Feelgood said:


> Do you ever wonder why so many people are so fixated on changing _other_ people?


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## bigmac (Nov 14, 2014)

The cop in the last photo knew he was on camera and did not appear to be reacting negatively -- just being silly. The looks of the teenage boy in one of the earlier photos could have been lustful. Its not always a bad thing when someone notices you.

Also, several of the supposedly negative looks don't actually appear that negative. We look at people around us -- no matter what they look like.


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## Ho Ho Tai (Nov 14, 2014)

Surlysomething said:


> I think this project really captures how a lot of fat people are treated when they're just out living their lives.
> 
> People suck.
> 
> I'm a very head strong, independent, outspoken woman and if I catch people staring at me they get a stare down right back or a "what the #@*$ are you looking at" but I realize a lot of people aren't comfortable doing that or feel shame. I wish these STARING life losers would called out more about it though. I really do.



This story probably goes back to WWII.

A large, outspoken and headstrong woman is riding a crowded bus, strap hanging. She feels something on her backside, quickly reaches around, and captures a hand.

Bellowing at the top of her mighty voice, she calls out "Whose hand is this? I found it on my ass!"


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 14, 2014)

Solid opportunity for activism here. Weight bias is something that gets little attention, mostly because most people (just like other prejudices) don't like to own up to their own feelings about others.

I'm friends with Haley on Facebook. She has a GoFundMe campaign to raise enough money to publish her photos in a book that hopefully can be used to make more people aware of fat hate & prejudice that goes on in the world.

If anyone else can and would like to help support this project financially, here's a link to her fundraising page.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/528118868/the-watchers-a-book-of-the-wait-watchers-photograp?ref=nav_search


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## Tom the pig 8 (Nov 15, 2014)

Surlysomething said:


> I think this project really captures how a lot of fat people are treated when they're just out living their lives.
> 
> People suck.
> 
> I'm a very head strong, independent, outspoken woman and if I catch people staring at me they get a stare down right back or a "what the #@*$ are you looking at" but I realize a lot of people aren't comfortable doing that or feel shame. I wish these STARING life losers would called out more about it though. I really do.


There are lots of people who do really enjoy looking at bbw s. I know I do, but then I hate to ,because I'm afraid they will be offended.


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## Happenstance (Nov 15, 2014)

I wonder if a couple of those people just go though their whole lives with sour expressions.
I also wonder if some of those people think they are helping motivate her to lose weight, by some twisted logic.


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## loopytheone (Nov 15, 2014)

I admit I worry sometimes that if somebody took pictures of me I would end up looking like this. I do tend to look at everybody around me, if only briefly, as I'm the anxious sort and like to know what is happening around me. And I have a terrible case of resting bitch face, that makes people think I am either angry or upset whenever I just have a neutral expression. =/


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## daddyoh70 (Nov 15, 2014)

Surlysomething said:


> Insecurity, jealousy, narcissism and the main one, they're complete and utter assholes.



This! There were quite a few juveniles in the pics too. Nice to know there will be a whole new generation of them.


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## ConnieLynn (Nov 15, 2014)

I think many of the looks are because she has the audacity to be a fat chick who isn't perfectly coiffed or well dressed. She's not fitting into the more 'acceptable' fat mold.


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 15, 2014)

ConnieLynn said:


> I think many of the looks are because she has the audacity to be a fat chick who isn't perfectly coiffed or well dressed. She's not fitting into the more 'acceptable' fat mold.



From the photographer herself...



> I have been setting up a camera in public to see if I can capture the gazes of the strangers who walk by me while I am doing everyday, mundane acts. I then look at the images to see if anyone who passed by me had a critical or questioning look on their face or in their body language. I present the images to the world to start a conversation. While I do not know what the passersby is thinking, I attempt to reverse the gaze back onto the stranger.



I don't think she's looking for anyone to assume that there's fat hate going on. I think she's just looking to get people to engage in dialogue about it, in hopes that some may recognize it for what it is.


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## ConnieLynn (Nov 15, 2014)

There is a presumption that if you are a fat woman, you owe it to the world to take care to dress in acceptable fat hiding clothes. If you run out to the grocery in capris and a tee, you are judged more harshly than a thinner chick in the same outfit, because you should know better than to wear something that doesn't flatter or hide the fat.

The ViralNova post on this just turned up in my facebook feed. It has a zillion comments. I just grabbed the few below from self proclaimed fat chicks. Folks think her clothes are ugly, but if they saw the same outfits on a non-fat gal, they would think nothing of it.

As a fat feminist, I am highly annoyed.



> I'm overweight and what I noticed was people looking at her bizarre clothing choices, not her weight. I would never wear a shirt 2 sizes too small and I would never wear leg hugging capri's. If I saw her on the street, I would look her way too just thinking "well, she's certainly got a weird sense of fashion."





> As a heavier woman myself I must say, I would probably look at her too, only because the clothes she's wearing are down right ugly and unflattering!! You can be on the heavier side, and still dress cute!





> I am a large woman and there is no way in HELL that I would dress like that! It's her clothing, not her weight!





> As a woman of size, there are clothes to wear, and a way to carry yourself that can enhance your beauty. Perhaps people are taken aback at her HIDEOUS sense of fashion! Please! The tight shirts? The color schemes? The SHOES?! NOT a fair representation. She looks like a CLOWN-- maybe that's what they're focusing on





> I too am overweight. ... however the way n she is dressed and things she is doing is drawing as much attention to her as her weight. Choose better attire then try your experience. I'm sure the results wouldn't be the same!


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## Marlayna (Nov 15, 2014)

Tom the pig 8 said:


> There are lots of people who do really enjoy looking at bbw s. I know I do, but then I hate to ,because I'm afraid they will be offended.


The bbw wouldn't take it the wrong way if you wink or smile at her. 
Reading this piece made me wonder about all the sideway looks I've probably gotten from strangers through the years. 
Haley sounds like a very grounded woman, and I admire her for enjoying the freedom of dressing to please herself. :bow:


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 15, 2014)

ConnieLynn said:


> There is a presumption that if you are a fat woman, you owe it to the world to take care to dress in acceptable fat hiding clothes. If you run out to the grocery in capris and a tee, you are judged more harshly than a thinner chick in the same outfit, because you should know better than to wear something that doesn't flatter or hide the fat.
> 
> The ViralNova post on this just turned up in my facebook feed. It has a zillion comments. I just grabbed the few below from self proclaimed fat chicks. Folks think her clothes are ugly, *but if they saw the same outfits on a non-fat gal, they would think nothing of it.*
> 
> As a fat feminist, I am highly annoyed.



I saw the same thing, and found it annoying as well. I did point that out in the comments section, though there are so many comments made in that article that even if I looked, I probably wouldn't be able to find it.


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## Saoirse (Nov 15, 2014)

I honestly did not think most of those photos showed people with disapproving looks. DO you know how many hundreds of weird faces you make throughout the day? I feel like these photos just caught people looking weird, not like they were disgusted by her.


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## bigmac (Nov 15, 2014)

Saoirse said:


> I honestly did not think most of those photos showed people with disapproving looks. DO you know how many hundreds of weird faces you make throughout the day? I feel like these photos just caught people looking weird, not like they were disgusted by her.




Yes. This. The lady in question is pretty average looking. I doubt most people around her actually paid much attention one way or the other.


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## lille (Nov 15, 2014)

Saoirse said:


> I honestly did not think most of those photos showed people with disapproving looks. DO you know how many hundreds of weird faces you make throughout the day? I feel like these photos just caught people looking weird, not like they were disgusted by her.



A few seemed to be looking at her, but there were definitely some that may have just been a momentary funny look. I'm sure if you randomly took my picture while I was walking down the street I'd be making a stupid face at some point. Or just glancing, I look at people while I walk, not because I'm judging but because I people watch, people are interesting or just because maybe their outfit or a sudden movement to something catches my eye.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 18, 2014)

bigmac said:


> The cop in the last photo knew he was on camera and did not appear to be reacting negatively -- just being silly. The looks of the teenage boy in one of the earlier photos could have been lustful. Its not always a bad thing when someone notices you.
> 
> Also, several of the supposedly negative looks don't actually appear that negative. We look at people around us -- no matter what they look like.





Saoirse said:


> I honestly did not think most of those photos showed people with disapproving looks. DO you know how many hundreds of weird faces you make throughout the day? I feel like these photos just caught people looking weird, not like they were disgusted by her.



You know, I was wondering the same thing myself. A sideways glance when you're in a crowd of people.....could too much be read into it?
The guy in the first photo...was he making a face AT HER or just clowning for the photo? 

Hard to tell....I get looks and sometimes I give them. *shrugs*

To be honest, sometimes I can simply KNOW when a person is uncomfortable with my weight....other times I cannot. 

To assume all those looks/glances were about her weight seems...presumptuous, at best. 



Ho Ho Tai said:


> This story probably goes back to WWII.
> 
> A large, outspoken and headstrong woman is riding a crowded bus, strap hanging. She feels something on her backside, quickly reaches around, and captures a hand.
> 
> Bellowing at the top of her mighty voice, she calls out "Whose hand is this? I found it on my ass!"



Lol, I love it



Happenstance said:


> I wonder if a couple of those people just go though their whole lives with sour expressions.
> I also wonder if some of those people think they are helping motivate her to lose weight, by some twisted logic.



Lol, my father had that twisted logic and even told me about it. He explained to me that he picked on me to inspire me to lose weight. 
I found it to be an incredibly arrogant attitude not only on his behalf but many others, as well. HE doesn't approve of my weight/eating habits? So I'm to interpret that as a cue to never eat a cupcake again? Fuck off world....and fuck that horse you rode in on. 

It became an ingrained part of my mentality/eating disorder. I simply cannot stand it when someone tries to tell me what to eat or live....even if they truly are, one of the very few, that actually are trying to "help" me. 

Odd isn't it? His judgment, and that of others, actually turned me into a fatter person than I would have been otherwise. I truly believe that.


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## olwen (Nov 18, 2014)

ConnieLynn said:


> There is a presumption that if you are a fat woman, you owe it to the world to take care to dress in acceptable fat hiding clothes. If you run out to the grocery in capris and a tee, you are judged more harshly than a thinner chick in the same outfit, because you should know better than to wear something that doesn't flatter or hide the fat.
> 
> The ViralNova post on this just turned up in my facebook feed. It has a zillion comments. I just grabbed the few below from self proclaimed fat chicks. Folks think her clothes are ugly, but if they saw the same outfits on a non-fat gal, they would think nothing of it.
> 
> As a fat feminist, I am highly annoyed.



I call bullshit on her project. She's dressed provocatively and she's standing in front of a camera set on a tripod in crowded areas. Of course people are gonna look her way when they see the camera then her standing in front of it. I'd look too just to figure out what's going on. I might even stop her to ask what she's working on. And I might be annoyed if the camera is pointing in my general direction cause I don't want to be in random people's photos. I'd make a face and walk away from the lens.

And yes, she can wear whatever she wants but I agree that her clothes are not great, because most of them are ill-fitting. I wear bright colors and patterns all the time, but they all fit me correctly. And I get compliments sometimes too and skinny girls ask me where I get my outfits. I don't think anyone should wear clothes that don't fit right. I could argue it would be equally shocking to see a fat woman dressed stylishly because it goes against people's ideas about what fat people are supposed to wear. 

I really would like to see her do this project with a friend wearing a hidden camera while she walks around wearing clothes that are fitted properly. Because of how she set it up she's forcing people to look at her, thus capturing moments that may not be authentic. If the scope of her project was to call attention to herself by wearing crappy clothes just to see how people would react then her method would work towards that.

As fat people we all know that stare is real and those moments should be captured using a method so the photographer doesn't purposefully call attention to herself. I just really wish she would have approached this differently.


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## ashmamma84 (Nov 18, 2014)

olwen said:


> I call bullshit on her project. She's dressed provocatively and she's standing in front of a camera set on a tripod in crowded areas. Of course people are gonna look her way when they see the camera then her standing in front of it. I'd look too just to figure out what's going on. I might even stop her to ask what she's working on. And I might be annoyed if the camera is pointing in my general direction cause I don't want to be in random people's photos. I'd make a face and walk away from the lens.
> 
> And yes, she can wear whatever she wants but I agree that her clothes are not great, because most of them are ill-fitting. I wear bright colors and patterns all the time, but they all fit me correctly. And I get compliments sometimes too and skinny girls ask me where I get my outfits. I don't think anyone should wear clothes that don't fit right. I could argue it would be equally shocking to see a fat woman dressed stylishly because it goes against people's ideas about what fat people are supposed to wear.
> 
> ...



You win all the rep. I call bs too. I'm a well dressed fat woman and skinny women also ask where I buy my clothing. But, most days people don't really pay much attention to anything other than themselves.

She looks like she's up to something. I really doubt people think she's so important that they would go out of their way to pay attention to her. She made herself into a point of interest by having a tripod. I feel like this is why, as a movement, fat folk aren't taken seriously. This could have been a teachable moment but instead, people, myself included, are questioning her credibility.


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## Surlysomething (Nov 18, 2014)

I think the differing opinions are pretty interesting in the thread.


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## olwen (Nov 19, 2014)

ashmamma84 said:


> You win all the rep. I call bs too. I'm a well dressed fat woman and skinny women also ask where I buy my clothing. But, most days people don't really pay much attention to anything other than themselves.
> 
> She looks like she's up to something. I really doubt people think she's so important that they would go out of their way to pay attention to her. She made herself into a point of interest by having a tripod. I feel like this is why, as a movement, fat folk aren't taken seriously. This could have been a teachable moment but instead, people, myself included, are questioning her credibility.



I think her intentions are good, only that she fails on execution. Remember when the fat heffalump did a similar project (http://fatheffalump.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/stares-sneers-and-snickers/)? She at least used a friend with a hidden camera, but then look at what she wears. She's definitely got the kind of style that people are gonna notice. She says in her blog she doesn't think it's because of her hair because lots of people wear their hair that way. Yes it's true people do wear their hair that way, but those people will also get stares. I don't think it's fair for her to say the average person won't notice someone with loud hair, tattoos, loud colored clothes with patterns. Stina Scott from the fatshion peepshow blog (http://www.fatshionpeepshow.blogspot.ca/) who dresses similarly does that kind of style better IMO. Either way these ladies are dressing in a way that purposefully calls attention to their bodies (that just happen to be fat).

The juxtaposition in styles between Haley Morris-Cafierro and the Fat Heffalump are at either end of the style extreme. And even if those ladies were thin people would still stare at them cause the average person (the average woman is a size 14/16) doesn't wear clothes that are way too tight or too loud.


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## Tad (Nov 19, 2014)

Not to mention that in several of those, it appears that she is standing around in a high traffic area, where some people are probably giving her 'a look' because she is disrupting the flow of people, when she could have moved five steps thattaway and been out of the way of everyone.

Maybe it is a degree of cynicism, but I think most people are more apt to react to even a trivial personal inconvenience that to what someone else is doing or wearing or what size they are. Maybe those things might intensify the reaction, but I think inconvenience is more apt to draw a reaction in the first place.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 19, 2014)

Tad said:


> Not to mention that in several of those, it appears that she is standing around in a high traffic area, where some people are probably giving her 'a look' because she is disrupting the flow of people, when she could have moved five steps thattaway and been out of the way of everyone.
> 
> Maybe it is a degree of cynicism, but I think most people are more apt to react to even a trivial personal inconvenience that to what someone else is doing or wearing or what size they are. Maybe those things might intensify the reaction, but I think inconvenience is more apt to draw a reaction in the first place.




I thought that same thing... standing in the middle of a crowded walkway like you're a clueless dumbshit would get you a look from my fatass, too. 

Btw, I was in the grocery store this morning. My basket on one side of the aisle and I was bending over trying to read something on a lower shelf....on the other side of the aisle.
In other words, I was inadvertently blocking traffic...and I looked up to see a man giving me a look....of impatience. I apologized and got out of his way and he smiled at me politely.


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## olwen (Nov 19, 2014)

Tad said:


> Not to mention that in several of those, it appears that she is standing around in a high traffic area, where some people are probably giving her 'a look' because she is disrupting the flow of people, when she could have moved five steps thattaway and been out of the way of everyone.
> 
> Maybe it is a degree of cynicism, but I think most people are more apt to react to even a trivial personal inconvenience that to what someone else is doing or wearing or what size they are. Maybe those things might intensify the reaction, but I think inconvenience is more apt to draw a reaction in the first place.



The pic in times square looks like nothing is happening really. Times square is crowded like that all the time and full of tourists taking pics of everything. As well as film crews and, dancing elmos, and street performers, and cops, and all what else. So a crowd is neither here nor there. On that street I wouldn't even give her a second glance. 

In some of her other photos she's off to the side, which is fine. It's crowded everywhere here. As long as you follow the flow of foot traffic you're fine. It's the tripod that's probably drawing all the attention on all the other streets.

But I also don't think it's cynicism you are feeling. It's common freaking courtesy. You either walk with the foot traffic or get out of the way.


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 19, 2014)

olwen said:


> I call bullshit on her project. She's dressed provocatively and she's standing in front of a camera set on a tripod in crowded areas. Of course people are gonna look her way when they see the camera then her standing in front of it. I'd look too just to figure out what's going on. I might even stop her to ask what she's working on. And I might be annoyed if the camera is pointing in my general direction cause I don't want to be in random people's photos. I'd make a face and walk away from the lens.
> 
> And yes, she can wear whatever she wants but I agree that her clothes are not great, because most of them are ill-fitting. I wear bright colors and patterns all the time, but they all fit me correctly. And I get compliments sometimes too and skinny girls ask me where I get my outfits. I don't think anyone should wear clothes that don't fit right. I could argue it would be equally shocking to see a fat woman dressed stylishly because it goes against people's ideas about what fat people are supposed to wear.
> 
> ...



I've seen similar comments posted in other forums that I participate in. 

I disagree.

In our world today, most fat people do everything they can to "hide" themselves from society. They select clothes that "blend" so to not call attention to themselves. The real world is not a BBW Bash where fat women can feel comfortable enough to wear whatever they want.

With regard to her selection of clothes, it may simply be her "style". If in fact the combination of color coordination and fit called more attention to her size, should it negate some of the reactions from the people in the pics? Could it be the annoyance of a tripod in the way as well? Maybe, but would it negate some of the anti fat thoughts that might be going through their minds? Again, the photographer has never spoken in absolutes, meaning she's admitted that even she has no idea what those people are thinking.

BUT, in terms of at least getting people to talk openly about typical reactions to fat people (and we have all seen them, and some of them look pretty damn close to what's shown in those pictures), the project has done it's job, and this is the reason that I supported the project financially, especially after speaking with Ms. Cafiero.


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## bigmac (Nov 19, 2014)

While fat people, and especially super-size people, do often draw unwanted and unpleasant attention I'm going to assert that the larger problem is fat people being ignored. I've always been amazed by the fact, and irony, that large people seem to disappear in many situations.


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## olwen (Nov 20, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> I've seen similar comments posted in other forums that I participate in.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> ...



A fat person can call attention to their bodies in a tasteful way. I don't think clothes that are too tight or too short are tasteful on anybody tho. I don't want to see all that on any body. And yes, the tripod totally negates the reactions from people. It's just another thing she's using to call attention to herself. If feels like she needs those tools to capture the reaction she wanted, like it wouldn't happen otherwise. If she's trying to call attention to the problem of perceptions of fat people she's not doing it in a neutral or academic way. I'm already fat. She doesn't need to convince me of the issue so I'm not denying it happens. I just don't think purposefully calling attention to herself helps her activist statement. 

Again, I don't object to the idea of the project, just her method, and I don't think it's done it's job well. This just fails as an activism project for me.


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## EMH1701 (Nov 20, 2014)

I probably don't weigh half as much as her, and have still gotten the looks and rude random comments on things I eat, even if it was a salad. It's like, so what, women who are not skinny should never eat in public? That's pretty much impossible, considering we have to eat somewhere at work.

As for plus-size women disappearing, when I had less confidence, I bought darker, blander clothes. Now I am buying more colorful clothes. I think the main issue is lack of confidence because of the way the public treats larger women in general.


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## Surlysomething (Nov 20, 2014)

Bingo. I totally agree with this.

I VERY RARELY get comments directed at me or weird stares. They don't actually have the opportunity because i'm not a wallflower about who I am. I carry myself like i'm just as important or more important than anyone else. Because I am. 

I also think if you're going to dress in a way that makes you look dumpy then people are going to react to that in a negative way, thin or thick.

First impressions, right?





EMH1701 said:


> As for plus-size women disappearing, when I had less confidence, I bought darker, blander clothes. Now I am buying more colorful clothes. I think the main issue is lack of confidence because of the way the public treats larger women in general.


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## Tom the pig 8 (Nov 20, 2014)

Marlayna said:


> The bbw wouldn't take it the wrong way if you wink or smile at her.
> Reading this piece made me wonder about all the sideway looks I've probably gotten from strangers through the years.
> Haley sounds like a very grounded woman, and I admire her for enjoying the freedom of dressing to please herself. :bow:



That's a very good point. I will have to make it a point, to smile in admiration, when I look at the Big Beautiful Woman.


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## ed1980 (Nov 21, 2014)

I don't really know what those looks were saying, but in my eyes they were not hostile. I mean, she was something that is uncommon so people looked at her. In the pictures I felt she was trying to call as much attention as she could, thus the look. Even more if she unadvetedly or not caused some inconvenient to people ....


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## ScreamingChicken (Nov 21, 2014)

Dress in a blue shirt, green capris, and red sneakers...in an awkward pose...in a busy area full of people...with a camera on a tripod to capture the moment. Definitely no chance of someone shooting a glare or funny look. 

She's looking for a reaction, plain and simple. It's what she does professionally.

http://mca.edu/haley-morris-cafiero/


I speak with a degree of authority since my family was active in the visual & performing arts for about forty years, myself included. Artists...whether they are painters, actors, singers, etc...seek attention and an audience. It's what they do. 

I believe that the artist in question is being very disingenuous by insinuating that people are staring at her because she is fat. No ma'am; people are staring because you are trying to make a spectacle of yourself.


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## Marlayna (Nov 21, 2014)

ScreamingChicken said:


> Dress in a blue shirt, green capris, and red sneakers...in an awkward pose...in a busy area full of people...with a camera on a tripod to capture the moment. Definitely no chance of someone shooting a glare or funny look.
> 
> She's looking for a reaction, plain and simple. It's what she does professionally.
> 
> ...


I must say she looks much more attractive in her bio pic.
As an art project, it doesn't prove all that much, but at least it got her name out there. As you said, some artists seek the attention of an audience.


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## EMH1701 (Nov 23, 2014)

Surlysomething said:


> Bingo. I totally agree with this.
> 
> I VERY RARELY get comments directed at me or weird stares. They don't actually have the opportunity because i'm not a wallflower about who I am. I carry myself like i'm just as important or more important than anyone else. Because I am.
> 
> ...



I completely agree. Just because we don't meet society's approval of thin standards does not mean we can't find fashionable clothing. There are stores that carry sizes over 3x. Additionally, one can always hire someone who knows how to sew, or even take sewing lessons.

One does not have to look frumpy just because one is not a size 6. There are alternatives. You just have to think outside the box, especially when it comes to clothing for formal and professional events.

I will say, however, that it seems in recent years plus-size women have been relegated to the Internet for decently fashionable clothes. Yeah, it sucks to have to pay higher costs for shipping and not be able to always try things on. This is why it is key to know your measurements. If you find yourself ordering from stores that use vanity sizing (and some do), always check the size guides. I have learned this lesson the hard way.


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## Surlysomething (Nov 23, 2014)

Good points. You don't even have to look trendy or fashion forward, just look decent. Wear clothes that fit and in styles/colours that are complimentary. Most staples are always affordable.




EMH1701 said:


> I completely agree. Just because we don't meet society's approval of thin standards does not mean we can't find fashionable clothing. There are stores that carry sizes over 3x. Additionally, one can always hire someone who knows how to sew, or even take sewing lessons.
> 
> One does not have to look frumpy just because one is not a size 6. There are alternatives. You just have to think outside the box, especially when it comes to clothing for formal and professional events.
> 
> I will say, however, that it seems in recent years plus-size women have been relegated to the Internet for decently fashionable clothes. Yeah, it sucks to have to pay higher costs for shipping and not be able to always try things on. This is why it is key to know your measurements. If you find yourself ordering from stores that use vanity sizing (and some do), always check the size guides. I have learned this lesson the hard way.


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 23, 2014)

It's not my job (or anyone else) to give fashion advice to anyone, regardless of size. I will say that the color combinations are no different than what many people wear these days. Can we offer the same criticism to the guys in the following pic, one of which is wearing the exact same soft blue/mint green combo?







Would you be saying the same thing if these guys were fat, and the subject same photos that Ms Cafiero took for this project?

I also don't know if the word frumpy is applicable in this case. Frumpy refers to "women who wear clothes that are dowdy and old fashioned". I don't see that.

I also don't see her seeking attention or an audience for herself. I've been a Facebook friend of hers for a few months now, and don't see her doing anything other than simply challenging people to talk about the project, and body judgment in general. She works in academia, works as an associate professor at the Memphis College of Art. There are times when unlikely people in the size acceptance movement are thrust into the limelight, simply because of their message.

I've invited her to respond here & in other groups and she's politely declined, saying that the project is only there to stimulate discussion in general.

I think it's accomplished it's goal.


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## superodalisque (Nov 24, 2014)

ashmamma84 said:


> You win all the rep. I call bs too. I'm a well dressed fat woman and skinny women also ask where I buy my clothing. But, most days people don't really pay much attention to anything other than themselves.
> 
> She looks like she's up to something. I really doubt people think she's so important that they would go out of their way to pay attention to her. She made herself into a point of interest by having a tripod. I feel like this is why, as a movement, fat folk aren't taken seriously. This could have been a teachable moment but instead, people, myself included, are questioning her credibility.



yep. she looks like she is baiting people. one thing people really hate is being baited and they really resent people expecting the worst of them when they don't know them. to me it's pretty obvious that she was going for something like that. I wouldn't like it either. I hate all of the attention drama junk going on now and it's everywhere you look. people get sick of other folks thinking that everybody is looking at them or even want to. there's a recession, war, mass shooters their own personal challenges. people really don't have time for that mess. sure some jerks are going to act out but everybody isn't a jerk unless you treat them like one first.

I expect if I was out with an obvious camera doing a look at me thing most people would look at me that way. this doesn't look like activism to me. it looks like immaturity. if she wants to start a discussion she could have actually sat there and started one and stop playing games with people. a conversation has more than one person and more than one perspective. this is about her and not about anyone else. she could have maybe gotten a few surprises or even changed a few minds but she wasn't talking. expecting people to understand you when you don't talk doesn't even work as well with strangers as it does with someone you're in a relationship with and live with every day. if you need something from people sometimes you just need to ask. people can't read your mind.

it's much easier to try and start a fight than to sit down and try and solve something with somebody.


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## superodalisque (Nov 24, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> It's not my job (or anyone else) to give fashion advice to anyone, regardless of size. I will say that the color combinations are no different than what many people wear these days. Can we offer the same criticism to the guys in the following pic, one of which is wearing the exact same soft blue/mint green combo?
> 
> Would you be saying the same thing if these guys were fat, and the subject same photos that Ms Cafiero took for this project?
> 
> ...



if the guys were fat or the same as they are in this photo I would say the exact same thing. all of the attention seeking with cameras as though they are the only folk in the world is are getting on my nerves. I don't feel like being a part of their glorified selfies, human experiments or pranks where they try to force a reaction. I don't think i'm unusual. 

if they really want to start a discussion they need to approach me with some kind of human respect and ask me straight up and stop making any assumptions about how i'm holding my face at a second in time and what is actually going on in my mind.

I think those guys look generally frumpy too btw but that's a personal thing/ i'm tired of guys looking like toddlers with either big pants little pants or their hair screwed up into some kind of 1950s little boy weirdness.


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## bigmac (Nov 24, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> yep. she looks like she is baiting people. one thing people really hate is being baited ...




The cop played it well. He knew she was looking for a reaction and he gave her one -- a silly inoffensive one.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 24, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> It's not my job (or anyone else) to give fashion advice to anyone, regardless of size. I will say that the color combinations are no different than what many people wear these days. *Can we offer the same criticism to the guys in the following pic, one of which is wearing the exact same soft blue/mint green combo?
> *
> 
> 
> ...



Phil, everyone of those guys looks really stupid to me. Just not my thang...men should dress like men- not Crusty the Clown. 
I actually think the photographer would look better in these outfits than the duds wearing them in the photo.

I get your point....but I'm not that "colorful" of a dresser usually. And none of those guys are blocking traffic on a sidewalk.

However, just don't mind me either way because the new "color schemes" the younger people have been putting in their hair looks totally stupid on a lot of people, too. Nothing new about it though. They were dying their hair different colors and twisting black and bleached back in the 80s too. Never went there then either.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Nov 24, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> Would you be saying the same thing if these guys were fat, and the subject same photos that Ms Cafiero took for this project?
> 
> I also don't know if the word frumpy is applicable in this case. Frumpy refers to "women who wear clothes that are dowdy and old fashioned".



I've never heard the word "frumpy" applied to a man. "Stylistically challenged," on the other hand, would describe most of the gentlemen you have pictured. Really, a bow tie with a sweatshirt? And I'll bet he didn't even tie it himself.


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 24, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> I don't feel like being a part of their glorified selfies, human experiments or pranks where they try to force a reaction. I don't think i'm unusual.



You may not be unusual, but my feelings evidently aren't either. Her kickstarter campaign has actually been overfunded with supporters.

I get it, the next comments will be made about how all these people are suckers. For me, the bottom line is that anything that calls attention to fat prejudice & body judgment being wrong is worthwhile in my book, notwithstanding the judgments to the contrary by the crowd at Dims.

Personally, in the grand scheme of things, the heat seekers repping for fat people that end up on programs like Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil and all of the other doctor TV shows that exploit fat people like a they're part of a freak show are far more dangerous than this lady's photographic undertaking.


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## EMH1701 (Nov 24, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> Would you be saying the same thing if these guys were fat, and the subject same photos that Ms Cafiero took for this project?
> 
> I also don't know if the word frumpy is applicable in this case. Frumpy refers to "women who wear clothes that are dowdy and old fashioned". I don't see that.



I would say frumpy doesn't really apply to that photo, but I would not expect to see most of those colors on a straight guy. 

Frumpy covers a broad range, but I have never really heard it applied to guys before. I would agree with stylistically challenged for most of those outfits.


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 24, 2014)

EMH1701 said:


> I would say frumpy doesn't really apply to that photo, but I would not expect to see most of those colors on a straight guy.
> 
> Frumpy covers a broad range, but I have never really heard it applied to guys before. I would agree with stylistically challenged for most of those outfits.



I attempted to define the word frumpy as it related to her, not to the guys in the picture. My only reference to the guys was to show the similarity in color choices between the photographer from the project, and what some young people are wearing today.

Again, for the record, I don't see what the young lady wore as dowdy and old fashioned.


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## Extinctor100 (Nov 24, 2014)

If you go into an experiment with a preconceived conclusion in mind, nothing will prevent you from arriving at that conclusion, no matter what you actually find.

I applause those willing to realize not all those people are being condescending. We don't always look our best as we give side-glances to things that catch our eye. We all know most people are asshats when it comes to judging on looks, but we don't need misappropriated facial expressions of passersby to prove *that*.


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## superodalisque (Nov 25, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> You may not be unusual, but my feelings evidently aren't either. Her kickstarter campaign has actually been overfunded with supporters.
> 
> I get it, the next comments will be made about how all these people are suckers. For me, the bottom line is that anything that calls attention to fat prejudice & body judgment being wrong is worthwhile in my book, notwithstanding the judgments to the contrary by the crowd at Dims.
> 
> Personally, in the grand scheme of things, the heat seekers repping for fat people that end up on programs like Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil and all of the other doctor TV shows that exploit fat people like a they're part of a freak show are far more dangerous than this lady's photographic undertaking.



i'm happy for her that she is getting funded and I hope she learns something from the discussion that gets generated. 

I actually think that not all attention is good attention either. we get so much attention around people who are out pandering for it and always focusing onto making us into a circus or some type or another. has the circus helped? no it hasn't. it just makes fat folk look desperate for attention instead of serious, thoughtful or respectful of ourselves and others.

I guess i'm personally sick of people doing things for shock value. I don't even want to know people who like that kind of drama. a lot of us are really tired of the circus tent and calliope music coming out every time someone wants to talk about being fat. I don't think she is that different from the people who go onto to television acting all extreme and pretending that they are there to help somebody but focusing on me me me. 

she could have just as easily have done something like a study on seating accessibility in doctor's office and entertainment venues etc... and a go fund me to make sure that they could all afford the equipment necessary. she could have made a documentary about how much that means t people and what kinds of changes it brought to their lives. but she hasn't done anything at all like that. all of this look at me look at me stuff is making everybody tired, including the general public. sometimes people really don't give a damn what you look like. but they might give a damn and even give you a hand if you are actually doing something constructive to help someone on the inside. 

to some extent you sometimes create your own reality. if you spend most of your time expecting and courting negativity and you are probably going to find it. on the whole the community does mainly dance with the devil. it doesn't trust anyone. It excludes the very people we're supposed to be trying to educate and change. we don't even interact with other groups with similar interests because "they might not understand us". if we don't start actually communicating with people instead of at them no one is going to learn anything of any use to us. in fact as we speak SA has run off without us and others are carrying on the message better than we ever have for that very reason. 

i'm still waiting for go fund me's for things like screen plays that show a positive reality that fat people especially younger ones can aspire to, movies with fat romantic characters or as great detectives or action adventure leads and documentaries about fat achievers. that's why I love projects like adipositivity that really do something for fat people on the inside by bringing them up instead of putting them down and giving us something we can show to people and say "hey this is who we really are." but we're supposed to fund her to prove that there are jackasses out there and that there are people who are just around that we can make look like jackasses whether they really are or not. everybody even thin people know exactly how fat people are treated at times. which is why a lot of them don't want to be one. it's not rocket science. this project IMO though worthwhile is the same tired old thing and that is why people are losing all interest in the fat community as a whole. there isn't enough positive excitement or inspiration and there is mainly a lot of navel gazing anger and depression about being fat. and if a fat person isn't depressed before they see her photos they probably will be once they have.


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## olwen (Nov 25, 2014)

Phil, frumpy, dowdy, and matronly are similar but different. Clothes that make a woman look older are matronly. They don't have to be old fashioned either. Old fashioned clothes can also be retro, which can be quite fashionable. Clothes that are ill-fitting and make a woman look like she lacks confidence would be considered frumpy, or dowdy, or mousy. 

As for the men in the pic, those guys wouldn't really get a second glance here. Guys here dress like that all the time. Walk thru williamsburg on a saturday. The only thing missing are crazy beards. Dunno about other places tho. If a fat guy were wearing the orange jacket with the yellow pants I'd stop him and compliment him on his fashion sense. I like it when fat guys are stylish. I think that look is the only one that is fashion forward for a guy. The rest are meh. If any one of them had a camera on a tripod I'd still look to see what they were doing with it. 

And I don't think any and every attempt to start a conversation about fat politics is a good attempt. We're not here debating the merits of her message, we're debating the method she's using. In this case the medium really is the message.


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## superodalisque (Nov 25, 2014)

wrestlingguy said:


> You may not be unusual, but my feelings evidently aren't either. Her kickstarter campaign has actually been overfunded with supporters.
> 
> I get it, the next comments will be made about how all these people are suckers. For me, the bottom line is that anything that calls attention to fat prejudice & body judgment being wrong is worthwhile in my book, notwithstanding the judgments to the contrary by the crowd at Dims.
> 
> Personally, in the grand scheme of things, the heat seekers repping for fat people that end up on programs like Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil and all of the other doctor TV shows that exploit fat people like a they're part of a freak show are far more dangerous than this lady's photographic undertaking.



i'm honestly happy for her that she is getting funded and I hope she learns something from the discussion that gets generated. 

I actually think that not all attention is good attention either. we get so much attention around people who are out pandering for it and always focusing onto making us into a circus or some type or another. has the circus helped? no it hasn't. it just makes fat folk look desperate for attention instead of serious, thoughtful or respectful of ourselves and others.

I guess i'm personally sick of people doing things for shock value. I don't even want to know people who like that kind of drama anymore. a lot of us are really tired of the circus tent and calliope music coming out every time someone wants to talk about being fat. I don't think she is that different from the people who go on television acting all extreme and pretending that they are there to help or enlighten somebody. 

she could have just as easily have done something like a study on seating accessibility in doctor's office and entertainment venues etc... and a go fund me to make sure that they could all afford the equipment necessary. but she hasn't done anything at all like that. all of this look at me look at me stuff is making everybody tired, including the general public. sometimes people really don't give a damn what you look like. but they might give a damn and even give you a hand if you are actually doing something constructive to help someone for once. 

to some extent you sometimes create your own reality. you expect negativity and you are probably going to get it.


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## Extinctor100 (Nov 25, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> sometimes people really don't give a damn what you look like. but they might give a damn and even give you a hand if you are actually doing something constructive to help someone for once.
> 
> to some extent you sometimes create your own reality. you expect negativity and you are probably going to get it.


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