# Carnie Wilson on the next "Celebrity Fit Club"



## Sandie_Zitkus

Article: http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/...ing-vh1-celebrity-fit-club-4-cast-1008839.php

I'm not trying to bash WLS - but - I mean - Am I wrong to be confused by this? Wasn't the WLS suppose to be the way to lose the weight? So she gained 100 lbs while pregnant - that's a lot of weight to gain while pregnant - and can't get rid of the last 40. 

Can you say food issues. She was so f*cking arrogant when she had the WLS and now she wants sympathy for being "only human"?? Yeah..............right.


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## Dibaby35

When you do some research for WLS, you'll find that they recommend not getting pregnant after surgery. So right there she was already asking for some issues to occur. Saying that, if you think where she was pre-surgery and where she is now, she still is doing great and is living a healthier life then she was.


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## Sandie_Zitkus

Dibaby35 said:


> When you do some research for WLS, you'll find that they recommend not getting pregnant after surgery.



Now why is that? I know a lot of women who had the surgery so they could get pregnant.

Is Carnie healthier now - I think that's debatable.


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## Miss Vickie

Nothing's perfect, Sandie. For the umpteenth time (not to you but in general), it's a TOOL. That's all. It's not a miracle, or a quick fix, or anything else. Just a tool, and it's only as good as a) the surgeon who did the surgery, b) a patient's own biology, which can be very good at compensating for said tool, and c) the patient's own issues with food. ANY surgery can be eaten around, and even if it's not if you take twenty people and give them the same surgery, they'll have twenty different outcomes. I had my surgery in April of last year, have lost 125 pounds, and feel great. There are others who have lost WAY more than me, who feel awful. I don't dump (except with some sweet liquids), and can eat quite a bit of food in one sitting. Others dump from anything even remotely carbilicious and can't eat more than a few bites of food. 

And I'm with ya -- she was incredibly arrogant, which happens a lot, I'm afraid. That's one of the reasons I'm incredibly careful about what I say around thin people, but also other fat folks (at a size 16 I'm not even close to being thin and am still at a weight that most docs would counsel to lose weight). Biting the hand that feeds you, turning your back on size acceptance after weight loss, is incredibly sad and wrong. I KNOW I can gain my weight back, which is why I try to be very careful a) about what I say to others, and b) my own self talk. I'm no "better" at 190 than I was at 320. I'm just more mobile and can live the kind of life I want to live. Sure, the weight loss has given me more confidence and stuff, but I'm still the same person, just enjoying the benefits of having a smaller body.

Pregnancy after WLS is still a no man's land of scientific knowledge. We just don't know what the nutritional ramifications are, and again, just like anything else, every woman's experiences are different.


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## HappyFatChick

I liked Carnie before she had surgery. I thought she was cute and fun.
Now she's not so cute (kind of haggard looking and dreadfully scary without makeup) and just seems mad at the world all the time. Her whole personality seemed to change post-op. Maybe she's just hungry?

WLS may work for some. Maybe it just wasn't enough for her.


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## Dibaby35

HappyFatChick said:


> I liked Carnie before she had surgery. I thought she was cute and fun.
> Now she's not so cute (kind of haggard looking and dreadfully scary without makeup) and just seems mad at the world all the time. Her whole personality seemed to change post-op. Maybe she's just hungry?
> 
> WLS may work for some. Maybe it just wasn't enough for her.



What is important here is that Carnie has said herself that she didn't feel good mentally and physically at the weight she was before the surgery. Doesn't really matter what ur thoughts are cause it's her body. Maybe she thinks she looks cute and fun now? I don't really know..but honestly who are we to judge?


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## Jes

Dibaby35 said:


> What is important here is that Carnie has said herself that she didn't feel good mentally and physically at the weight she was before the surgery. Doesn't really matter what ur thoughts are cause it's her body. Maybe she thinks she looks cute and fun now? I don't really know..but honestly who are we to judge?


I am one to judge. Me. I blame Carnie Wilson for changing my religion AND my sexual preference! I blame Carnie Wilson for global warming and long lines at the movies! GRRR, CARNIE, GRRR!


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## Carrie

Jes said:


> I am one to judge. Me. I blame Carnie Wilson for changing my religion AND my sexual preference! I blame Carnie Wilson for global warming and long lines at the movies! GRRR, CARNIE, GRRR!



I blame her for making me a hopeless loser hell bent on wearing out my Wilson Phillips CD in the early 90's.


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## BBWMoon

Carrie said:


> I blame her for making me a hopeless loser hell bent on wearing out my Wilson Phillips CD in the early 90's.




Open the door and come in... I'm so glad to see you my friend.
Don't know how long it has been...


Umm... from memory!


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## Carrie

BBWMoon said:


> Open the door and come in... I'm so glad to see you my friend.
> Don't know how long it has been...
> 
> 
> Umm... from memory!



Yay! I feel much less alone now.


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## NFA

Wilson didn't regain weight because of "food issues". She regained weight because that's what happens with WLS. She's not the first and she won't be the last. Because her livlihood has depended on being a weight-loss spokesperson, she's had resources most patients never have access to and even she cannot maintain the image her paying sponsors would like her to. (Not that they haven't gotten their money's worth for all the people who flocked to have their digestive systems amputated in the wake of their paid spokespersons earlier publicity parades) Blaming her weight gain on her is no more fair than it was for Carnie to pithily blame other fat people for their unacceptable bodies. In neither case is it true, and I don't care a whit that Carnie's doing it to herself, either. Its not fair from her either.

Oh, and to all the people who insist on trusting Carnie's word about how she felt pre-surgery, in her first interviews after opting to get WLS, she was very clear about her motives. It was to help her career. Never said a word about her health except to point out that it was excellent which perversely made her a good target for WLS. It was only after she started professionally promoting WLS that her line changed.


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## LJ Rock

Well, I have to say that I was a little surprised when I saw her on the commercials for the new season on "CFC" talking about she needs to loose 40 lbs or something like that. My thoughts were, "My goodness, hasn't she lost enough weight? Is she really trying to become _a stick?_" 

Then I remembered hearing that she did have a baby recently, and so I suppose she must have gained a bit of that weight back. Even still, she still looked to be in fairly good shape and no where near as heavy as she used to be. Is it really necessary for her to go through all this? Does she really need to go through such rigors to get back to her pre-baby weight? And on TV in front of millions to boot? 

Then I remebered, some people will do absolutely _anything_ to get on TV! Being as her singing and acting career hasn't really seen much action since the early/mid 90s, I suppose the majority of her income must come from being a "weightloss spokesperson" as it has been stated. 

As someone who _really_ had a *big* crush on Carnie as a teen (I still have magazine covers with Wilson Phillips on them from back in the day) it is sad for me to see that she has sort of reduced herself to becoming society's "guinea pig" for dieting and WLS. Deep down I just hope that she (as anyone in her situation) stays healthy and can truly find happiness within herself and be a good Mom to her new baby, regardless of what ups and downs her career may go through.


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## Sandie_Zitkus

Like I said I am not trying to bash WLS - but MY GOD if surgically altering your insides isn't permanent then what the hell is??????????????????:doh: 

(I'm hormonal folks and not feeling very forgiving - Carnie Wilson was a bitch when she had the surgery and LIED about how much she weighed pre-op and the surgery shown on the Internet wasn't even her she admitted to all this post-op. And she was paid by the surgeons who did the surgery. So ya know what - f*ck her.)


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## CuteyChubb

Wow. Poor Carnie. Maybe she just hasn't accepted herself yet. She is human and learning as she goes like the rest of us. I mean geez, I only found y'all earlier this month. C'mon, give her a break.


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## Miss Vickie

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Like I said I am not trying to bash WLS - but MY GOD if surgically altering your insides isn't permanent then what the hell is??????????????????:doh:
> 
> (I'm hormonal folks and not feeling very forgiving - Carnie Wilson was a bitch when she had the surgery and LIED about how much she weighed pre-op and the surgery shown on the Internet wasn't even her she admitted to all this post-op. And she was paid by the surgeons who did the surgery. So ya know what - f*ck her.)



Oh yeah, I agree. I don't feel sorry for her in the slightest. But while the surgery is permanent, the results -- like with any surgical procedure -- aren't. Another example would be a heart bypass. Sure it solves the problem NOW, but it doesn't address future damage done by CHD. Same with surgeries for Crohn's. It fixes what's there NOW, it's hardly a cure. I suppose in the same way, WLS isn't a cure for obesity, because I don't think there really IS one.


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## GenericGeek

Miss Vickie said:


> Oh yeah, I agree. I don't feel sorry for her in the slightest. But while the surgery is permanent, the results -- like with any surgical procedure -- aren't. Another example would be a heart bypass. Sure it solves the problem NOW, but it doesn't address future damage done by CHD. Same with surgeries for Crohn's. It fixes what's there NOW, it's hardly a cure. I suppose in the same way, WLS isn't a cure for obesity, because I don't think there really IS one.



I really do think we'll learn a great deal more about the neurochemistry of appetite and satiety in the near future, and that will be _*one *_ of the key elements in finding a "cure" for obesity.

But not THE cure, by any means! Prozac and similar drugs for depression are a great deal better than the previous generation of meds, but they are only ONE tool in the management of "melancholia" (that wretched affective disorder!), not a panacea.

Our modern lifestyles are truly whacked, and until we return to a slower, saner way of life , most of us simply won't get enough exercise in the normal course of our daily lives to keep us from piling on the pounds (not to mention the fatty deposits on our arteries.)

BTW, is post-surgical counseling to deal with body-image issues a standard part of the WLS treatment package? It certainly seems like it SHOULD be...


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## TraciJo67

She actually gained 70 lbs while pregnant, not 100. She can't get rid of 40 pounds that she'd like to lose in order to be at her goal weight. Both of my sisters gained more than 50 pounds while pregnant. One has yet to take it off, and gained an additional amount when she had her second child. Most women that I know do not ever get back to a pre-pregnancy weight. Carnie is still more than 100 lbs lighter than her pre-operative weight. She claims to feel healthy. I'll take her at face value, since I don't live in her body. 

What I don't understand is why people are so hard on her. She's human. We don't know what motivates her. We can't guess at all that motivated her to have WLS. Even if it *was* for her career, so flippin' WHAT???!?!?! Her life, her body. Don't like WLS? Don't have it. It's a clear & simple choice, really. Why bash someone else's choice?


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## Dibaby35

TraciJo67 said:


> She actually gained 70 lbs while pregnant, not 100. She can't get rid of 40 pounds that she'd like to lose in order to be at her goal weight. Both of my sisters gained more than 50 pounds while pregnant. One has yet to take it off, and gained an additional amount when she had her second child. Most women that I know do not ever get back to a pre-pregnancy weight. Carnie is still more than 100 lbs lighter than her pre-operative weight. She claims to feel healthy. I'll take her at face value, since I don't live in her body.
> 
> What I don't understand is why people are so hard on her. She's human. We don't know what motivates her. We can't guess at all that motivated her to have WLS. Even if it *was* for her career, so flippin' WHAT???!?!?! Her life, her body. Don't like WLS? Don't have it. It's a clear & simple choice, really. Why bash someone else's choice?



/agree

Thats exactly what I was trying to say..


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## missaf

I think people are hard on her because of the frauds regarding her surgery to begin with. Someone that's caught lying is usually looked upon with skepticism, anyway.


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## Sandie_Zitkus

missaf said:


> I think people are hard on her because of the frauds regarding her surgery to begin with. Someone that's caught lying is usually looked upon with skepticism, anyway.



In an article I read she said she has lost 60 ponds so far after giving birth. So if that's so she gained 100 lbs.

She's a liar with a big effin mouth she was so arrogant before and after her surgery - I have no sympathy for her.

She wants sympathy now - well she should have thought about that before.


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## Tina

I honestly don't care about the subject one way or another. I loved her when she sang with Wilson Phillips, but was less impressed with her talk show. Thing is, we're all human, aren't we? We say and do things we don't mean, and we all hope for, and need, forgiveness and human compassion at one point or another. I'm not suggesting you forgive her, or not, but more just stating that she's as human as any of us here, and has made at least as many mistakes. The difference is that her mistakes are much more public, and therefore embarrassing, than ours.


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## HappyFatChick

I think Vickie has a great point. Is there really a "cure" for obesity? The only people I know who kept their weight off (with or without wls) made a MENTAL decision to do so. 
One woman told me she was "just tired" of being fat. Another told me her doctor scared her into it.


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## TraciJo67

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> In an article I read she said she has lost 60 ponds so far after giving birth. So if that's so she gained 100 lbs.
> 
> She's a liar with a big effin mouth she was so arrogant before and after her surgery - I have no sympathy for her.
> 
> She wants sympathy now - well she should have thought about that before.



Sandie, you seem quite bitter and angry towards Carnie. Do you know her personally? Has she broken any promises that she made specifically to you? Is she asking for your sympathy? And has Carnie told you, personally, how much weight she's gained & lost ... or are you going by what you've read second (or third, or tenth) hand in a magazine article? I do know that a lot of people are following her, apparently quite eager to see her "fail" and gain weight. So she's not thin. Yeah, she's regained some weight. She's entitled to her humanity ... to her victories and to her failures, and DAMN but why do people take so much glee in watching the latter ... and so often, feel nothing but threatened by the former?


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## Sandie_Zitkus

Well Traci - Carnie started the blood bath of WLS going on in our country right now. Having lost friends - and watching several suffering with side effects from said surgery - YEAH - I'm a little bitter. So what? Is carnie your friend? She's a celebrity - she wants publicity - that's why she does this shit. And millions like Lemmings do exactly what she does - because she's *Carnie Wilson*. 

Give me a fucking break 




TraciJo67 said:


> Sandie, you seem quite bitter and angry towards Carnie. Do you know her personally? Has she broken any promises that she made specifically to you? Is she asking for your sympathy? And has Carnie told you, personally, how much weight she's gained & lost ... or are you going by what you've read second (or third, or tenth) hand in a magazine article? I do know that a lot of people are following her, apparently quite eager to see her "fail" and gain weight. So she's not thin. Yeah, she's regained some weight. She's entitled to her humanity ... to her victories and to her failures, and DAMN but why do people take so much glee in watching the latter ... and so often, feel nothing but threatened by the former?


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## TraciJo67

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Well Traci - Carnie started the blood bath of WLS going on in our country right now. Having lost friends - and watching several suffering with side effects from said surgery - YEAH - I'm a little bitter. So what? Is carnie your friend? She's a celebrity - she wants publicity - that's why she does this shit. And millions like Lemmings do exactly what she does - because she's *Carnie Wilson*.
> 
> Give me a fucking break



I met Carnie in April 2004, just a few weeks before I had WLS. She was the keynote speaker at a WLS conference held at a casino in Mille Lacs, MN. I did not talk with her personally, but I will always remember what a warm, caring presence she had. She spent a lot of time with us, patiently answering questions, and she had a great (somewhat self-deprecating) sense of humor. She came across as very human, very vulnerable, and enthusiastic & excited about her "new" life. She didn't speak vapidly about how much more attractive she is or how guys look at her or how she can fit into a size 6. Rather, she spoke quite convincingly about how she could move about freely, how her self confidence was restored with each goal she met, and how that new confidence in her abilities brought her so many more professional opportunities. She didn't blame her weight, she didn't speak about fat people as if they are disgusting (or worse, worthy of our pity), and she spoke honestly & with a lot of emotion. It was obvious that she was very grateful that her life had been restored to her. And yeah, I can relate. Everything that she said that night resonated in & with me. And I'd made the decision to have WLS long before I attended that conference - it was, in fact, the reason that I did so (to get an idea from other post-ops about life after surgery). I don't even remember if I knew that about Carnie when I was making my own WLS decision. So much for Carnie "starting a trend". Sandie, you do give her too much credit -- and too little credit to those who have or are contemplating the procedure. Do you think that people are so stupid, they rush out to have a painful, life altering surgery (with no thoughtful discussion or planning with their doctors) because Carnie had it?!? Wait, I guess you do. You think we're all "lemmings", right? 

Carnie has publicly said that good & bad, she has become the poster child for WLS. She has specifically said that WLS is only a tool, that people can & do gain weight after having the procedure done (and she's living proof). I'm not sure what you see in her that is arrogant. I saw only joy and graciousness. And to a large extent, I share her joy, and can understand it. I also understand that for some people, it is not easy to share my joy. I live that reality, too - and I know that there are people in my own personal life who would love nothing more than to see me fail and/or regain weight. They probably think that I'm arrogant too, rather than simply happy & grateful that my life has been restored to me. I can live with that. The people who love me, and whom I love, know what I'm all about, and as the saying goes, they have my back. 

I'm grateful that I'm not a celebrity, and my own vulnerabilities, mistakes & difficulties aren't magnified x1000 for armchair critics to watch & comment upon.


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## Sandie_Zitkus

> Sandie, you do give her too much credit -- and too little credit to those who have or are contemplating the procedure. Do you think that people are so stupid, they rush out to have a painful, life altering surgery (with no thoughtful discussion or planning with their doctors) because Carnie had it?!?



LMAO! YES YES YES I DO! And most (not all) people are THAT stupid. Do you know how many times I have heard "Well Carnie Wislon did it - and she looks great!"

And the only reason she was at the conference you attended was that she was (and may still be) a paid employee of the group doing the surgery. PERIOD. 

I'm backing out of this conversation Traci - only because I think WLS is butchery - and one of my closest friends is watching his wife try to live through life threatening side effects of WLS *6 YEARS *after her surgery. _6 YEARS!_So I'm not exactly neutral on this subject and I don't want to say something that may hurt your feelings Traci. By that I mean I don't want to say anything to hurt you.


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## TraciJo67

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> LMAO! YES YES YES I DO! And most (not all) people are THAT stupid. Do you know how many times I have heard "Well Carnie Wislon did it - and she looks great!"
> 
> And the only reason she was at the conference you attended was that she was (and may still be) a paid employee of the group doing the surgery. PERIOD.
> 
> I'm backing out of this conversation Traci - only because I think WLS is butchery - and one of my closest friends is watching his wife try to live through life threatening side effects of WLS *6 YEARS *after her surgery. _6 YEARS!_So I'm not exactly neutral on this subject and I don't want to say something that may hurt your feelings Traci. By that I mean I don't want to say anything to hurt you.



Sandie, there isn't a thing that you could say that would hurt me. I have thicker skin than that.

I do wish your friend well, and I am sorry to hear that she is suffering.


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## Sandie_Zitkus

TraciJo67 said:


> Sandie, there isn't a thing that you could say that would hurt me. I have thicker skin than that.
> 
> I do wish your friend well, and I am sorry to hear that she is suffering.



That's not what I meant Traci. I meant that you and I tend to get into heated disagreements about this subject and I just don't want to do that anymore. I just want to agree to disagree with you. Altho I do enjoy a good argument.


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## SexxyBBW69

I just have to say....... I love her husband he is absolutely gorgeous a great actor & he loved her fat.... & he is so sweet

I have to find me one of him :wubu:


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## Miss Vickie

TraciJo67 said:


> What I don't understand is why people are so hard on her. She's human. We don't know what motivates her. We can't guess at all that motivated her to have WLS. Even if it *was* for her career, so flippin' WHAT???!?!?! Her life, her body. Don't like WLS? Don't have it. It's a clear & simple choice, really. Why bash someone else's choice?



It seems sometimes like some folks want WLS patients to fail. It's like if we lose a bunch of weight, it's TOO fast or we look TOO awful or there's no WAY we're healthy (even lying about how well we're doing). If we don't lose weight or if we lose and regain, then it's "See? Told you so. Of course you regained your weight. EVERYONE does." (which is not true). I don't understand why people can't just honor each other's choices and wish each other well. What's so hard/painful/awful about that?

All that being said, the way Carnie used the media to make a buck is reprehensible. She really did use the media -- and by extension us -- for attention and money. That's what I find irritating about her. I still wish her well, though, even if I don't care for her methods for gaining notoriety or financial solvency. 

I wish I'd been able to check in with thread earlier but I just finished a five day move and spent the entire time packing, schlepping and unpacking a veritable mountain of crap. As exhausting and physically demanding as it was (I lost track of the number of boxes of books we have, but it nearly filled our garage), I can't help but think of how impossible such a move would have been for me only two years ago. Getting out of bed was exhausting, and anything else was if not impossible, daunting to say the least. But because of my weight loss and corresponding increase in strength, I was able to do an amazing amount of work, lift an amazing number of very heavy boxes and furniture, carrying them up and down stairs, without getting winded or destroying my back. Sure I'm sore, but I've been able to go right back to work, at a very demanding job, literally without a pause (yesterday I finished cleaning our old place at 6 pm and was showered and at work on a busy L&D unit at 7 pm). 

It's times like this that make me so thankful for my surgeon and for the opportunities I have now that I didn't have two years ago. For me it's about so much more than looking good in my clothes, but has allowed me to be a much more physically active participant in my own life. For me, it's been nothing but a positive thing, but I know that it's not for everyone. I respect that.


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## crazygrad

Vickie, I think you are absolutely right- people seem to want WLS surgery patients to fail. Whether they see WLS as an "easy way out" and the patient doesn't do anything (and along with that never tried to lose weight by diet and exercise), or because, by having surgery, they are saying that diet and exercise (and the whole myth of natural (and unattainable) means of being beautiful) are not enough, or because people see them as size traitors, it does seem so many people want those who've had WLS to fail. I guess so we can be put back into our correct place.

With Carnie, though, she's also breaking another rule- that women bounce right back after having a baby. Heidi Klum, Denise Richards, Katie Homes, Madonna, reese Witherspoon and countless other celebs are seen sometimes WEEKS are birth looking "fabulous"- thin, muscular and wearing the latest fashions. Carnie is having trouble getting her baby weight off- it violates a critical idea that many people cling to (esp. in reference to celebs)- that child birth and pregnancy don't really do anything to the body and that if we work hard enough- we can look the same- nay, even better- than we did before baby.

Actually, I think its great Carnie will be CFC4. It serves as a potent reminder that WLS is a tool, and its only as good as the person who wields it and how its used. Since CFC emphasizes portion control, a well balanced approach to eating (after a dramatic refurb in eating) and exercise, I think it helps people to remember that NO weight loss efforts can be sustained without a managable eating plan and exercise. I don't like Carnie particularly, and I never cared for her music, but I do hope this will help people who see WLS as effortless to get a better perspective.


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## HappyFatChick

I don't want anyone who had wls to fail.
I just miss my friends and family members who died from it.


The latest thing I could find on Carnie:

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2006/08/03/carnie_wilson_i_get_horny_when_i_eat_don


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## BaronAaron

I want to know what in heck her husband thinks about all this. They met when she was over 300 pounds, right? So, unless he's a total celeb-whore, he probably dug her body then.I can only imagine what it must be like to fall in love and marry a woman over 300 pounds, then she has weight loss surgery and all the fat falls away and you are left to get in bed every night with a pile of skin. It must be like making love to a 90-year-old.

And then surgery to remove the skin, so you have vicious wicked scars. And then they GAIN 100 pounds, then lose it again. yikes yikes yikes no one ever mentions the husband.


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## SamanthaNY

Do ya think that maybe... possibly... gee, I dunno - that her husband LOVES her, and gets in bed every night with his WIFE and the mother of his child? And not just a body he has sex with? Here's a wild, madcap concept - he loves her no matter what her body currently looks like, so making love is still exactly that - not just fucking for his own pleasure. Wow! 

If her husband reacts anything like you did, then he's not worth mentioning.


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## NancyGirl74

SamanthaNY said:


> Do ya think that maybe... possibly... gee, I dunno - that her husband LOVES her, and gets in bed every night with his WIFE and the mother of his child? And not just a body he has sex with? Here's a wild, madcap concept - he loves her no matter what her body currently looks like, so making love is still exactly that - not just fucking for his own pleasure. Wow!
> 
> If her husband reacts anything like you did, then he's not worth mentioning.



Good point, Samantha...but now you've got me thinking....

Not to be snide but is there such a man? One who loves a woman completely for who she is and not what she looks like? Even a man who loves his wife/girlfriend/lover's total personality, flaws and all, would still be challenged if she turned up disfigured or completely changed in some way. Call it what you will but I think men (and women) find it hard to be attracted to someone whose appearance has altered so completely. I also think it would be totally shallow and hurtful if someone lost their love for their significant other just because his/her look changed...Physical attraction (which is key to many in a relationship) can not be expected to stay the same but why should the love change? If someone changes how they look I don't think it's realistic to expect their partner to not be affected by it. However, I don't think any woman should maintain a look she is not happy with just to keep her man. Either he can rise above the surface of his partner's new look and still see the woman he fell in love with or he can't. If he can't...do you really want him? *shrugs*


My comments are not meant to offend. I'm just sincerely curious. As someone who has lost and gained and lost weight over time I'm curious as to how much that would influence my relationship...which I don't have to worry about since I don't have a relationship...but I'm still curious.


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## crazygrad

Samantha :wubu: :wubu: :wubu: 

I'd have to say too, that if he loves her, and she had all the health problems she did at her weight, he was probably glad she sought treatment to correct the problems she was experiencing. Love means wanting someone happy and healthy and able to share experiences over the long term. If Carnie had apnea, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and any of the other problems she has said she did, I would hope that he is happy his wife is healthier now. Having seen Carnie in interviews when she was heavy, and in her exercise video that she made, I have to admit she seemed to be in less than healthy condition. Whether or not she had WLS just for her career or for her health or whatever, it seems to have helped her become healthier. Could she have done that without surgery? Don't know because this is the direction she took.

Oh, and plastic surgeons are trained in techniques to minimize scarring. As someone whose had skin cancer and surgeries to correct the lesions and some problems from them- I have two tiny visible scars and two others that are visible but always covered by clothes. That's with over half dozen procedures. I often wish they were worse so I could show them to my friends who tan and ask them if this is what they want in a years. Noone is threatened by my scars so they assume skin cancer is really a minor deal. (I had melanoma- invasive with lymphatic involvement)

Sorry to derail the thread- the point is that plastic surgery often leaves minimal scarring so a person having procedures is likely not to turn into a walking scar.


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## SamanthaNY

NancyGirl74 said:


> Good point, Samantha...but now you've got me thinking....
> Not to be snide but is there such a man? One who loves a woman completely for who she is and not what she looks like? Even a man who loves his wife/girlfriend/lover's total personality, flaws and all, would still be challenged if she turned up disfigured or completely changed in some way. Call it what you will but I think men (and women) find it hard to be attracted to someone whose appearance has altered so completely. I also think it would be totally shallow and hurtful if someone lost their love for their significant other just because his/her look changed...Physical attraction (which is key to many in a relationship) can not be expected to stay the same but why should the love change? If someone changes how they look I don't think it's realistic to expect their partner to not be affected by it. However, I don't think any woman should maintain a look she is not happy with just to keep her man. Either he can rise above the surface of his partner's new look and still see the woman he fell in love with or he can't. If he can't...do you really want him? *shrugs*
> My comments are not meant to offend. I'm just sincerely curious. As someone who has lost and gained and lost weight over time I'm curious as to how much that would influence my relationship...which I don't have to worry about since I don't have a relationship...but I'm still curious.


Thanks, Nancy (and Crazygrad) - my earlier post was admittedly heat of the moment because Aaron's post struck me as coming from a cold and selfish place. I don't think he actually meant to completely disregard love and compassion, but the absence of those hooked me. Badly.

And certainly, I do agree - physical attraction and image do play a role in any relationship, so of course what one parter does (or has happen to) their body makes a difference. Being with someone over the course of years, of course their body is going to change. Not only by age, but also by the consequences of life itself. If a person isn't prepared to deal with the fact that their mate may not turn them on as much as they did on day one, then they best rethink a longterm deal. I think this is where maturity, committment and love come into play. Marriage (and any longterm relationship) consists of waves - ups and downs in all aspects of life; financial, emotional, physical, material, health, etc. For me, where the love really lies is weathering those waves. 

One other thing I can't quite understand about the anger towards Carnie Wilson (and I personally don't care for her, but I'm not against what she's done/doing except in the promotion and publicity of it all) is the apparant lack of understanding for her position. I don't think she _liked _being 300 pounds. I believe there were serious negative health consequences for her. Was she too vocal about the surgery and the 'new' her? Yeah. No question. But - she also didn't _want _to gain weight back, so she's fighting it. I would like to think that most of us here can understand that struggle for control over our own bodies.


----------



## BaronAaron

SamanthaNY said:


> Do ya think that maybe... possibly... gee, I dunno - that her husband LOVES her, and gets in bed every night with his WIFE and the mother of his child? And not just a body he has sex with? Here's a wild, madcap concept - he loves her no matter what her body currently looks like, so making love is still exactly that - not just fucking for his own pleasure. Wow!
> 
> If her husband reacts anything like you did, then he's not worth mentioning.




Not trying to be mean, even though you are completely sarcastic and condescending, but you have your head in the clouds about men and sex. Yes, he may love her, but guys do not walk around saying "Whoah! Nice mind!" to their buddies.

Also, if you search google with the words "My husband has gained an awful lot of weight. I still love him but I am turned off!" and similar, you will get many hits. It isn't just men who have a problem if their wife suddenly and drastically change their physical appearance.


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## MoonGoddess

_I feel badly for Carnie's obvious discomfort, mental and physical. People need to do what is right for them and their particular situation. Some women are perfectly happy at 300 lbs. Hopefully they are healthy, or at least not suffering from serious medical issues. Other women would literally rather be dead than weigh that much. It is all a very indivdual and personal thing. Who are we to judge?

I can't fathom living in a constant spotlight. Having your every move, every comment scrutinized and picked apart by people you don't even know. Not having privacy. I know...I know. You give up all this when you become a celebrity. It is part of the "job". You make a lot of money and get to live in a manner that most people can only dream of. But all the same, it cannot be easy.

I know that Carnie comes across as whiny and childish. But seriously...it makes no difference in my life what she says or does. And if someone allows her to sway their thoughts and actions, well...that is their issue to deal with. Celebrity fixation is just plain sad. 

She makes no difference in most of our lives. We should be focusing on ourselves and those we love. _


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## SexxyBBW69

BaronAaron said:


> I want to know what in heck her husband thinks about all this. They met when she was over 300 pounds, right? So, unless he's a total celeb-whore, he probably dug her body then.I can only imagine what it must be like to fall in love and marry a woman over 300 pounds, then she has weight loss surgery and all the fat falls away and you are left to get in bed every night with a pile of skin. It must be like making love to a 90-year-old.
> 
> And then surgery to remove the skin, so you have vicious wicked scars. And then they GAIN 100 pounds, then lose it again. yikes yikes yikes no one ever mentions the husband.



HI, I mentioned the husband.. he is amazing he loved her for her she should have stayed that way.. I know for him I would


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## TraciJo67

BaronAaron said:


> I want to know what in heck her husband thinks about all this. They met when she was over 300 pounds, right? So, unless he's a total celeb-whore, he probably dug her body then.I can only imagine what it must be like to fall in love and marry a woman over 300 pounds, then she has weight loss surgery and all the fat falls away and you are left to get in bed every night with a pile of skin. It must be like making love to a 90-year-old.
> 
> And then surgery to remove the skin, so you have vicious wicked scars. And then they GAIN 100 pounds, then lose it again. yikes yikes yikes no one ever mentions the husband.



I was once 300 pounds, and I am less than half that weight now. I am also married. When I met my husband, I was not overweight. So I've been the gamut with him, from average to fat to very fat and, at this point, I am thinner than I have ever been. I've been with him for nearly 20 years, and I know what he prefers, which is neither end of the spectrum. He was happiest with my weight being around 200 lbs, and his eye is usually drawn to women who fall within that range. But you know what? I prefer Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp, but he'll do  The bottom line is, I'm more comfortable in my own (piles of) skin, and we are more active sexually than we've ever been, and I know that he's digging that -- and he almost never complains that it's like making love to a 90-year-old  So I know that there are people out there who can and do love their spouses irrespective of their preferences (which can and do change all the time). I would love him no matter what he looked like. It was part of my initial attraction to him, but over the years, what I feel for him has evolved into so much more than just how he looks. 

Over the years, we all change. Beauty fades. I do understand the point that you were trying to make, but I'm going to crawl out on a limb here and guess that you've never been in a long-term relationship. If you were, I think you'd understand that the people we love *are* beautiful to us - that is our reality, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.


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## Tracyarts

HappyFatChick said:


> I just miss my friends and family members who died from it.




I know... and I really miss my friends and family members who died from obesity related comorbidities or who have lost so much mobility and health and life quality that it is a challenge at best to enjoy sharing life with them any longer. 

The sadness goes both ways. Sometimes there is no easy answer. 

Tracy


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## crazygrad

TRacy, I know how you feel too. I've lost loved ones to obesity realted ailments as well, and a good friend died on the table having WLS. THere are risks with WLS, as their with any surgery, especially a major one. And there can be risks with being fat.

Aaron, I understand what you're saying- that the physical can't be seperated from attraction. But we're saying, in many relationships, the person can't be seperated from the physical. I can't speak for anyone else's experiences, but in my post surg support group, we have talked about why divorce rates go up among some post surg patients. Sometimes, it is because, physically, one partner isn't attracted to the other. Sometimes, its about the losing partner changing when they lose weight. I also can't speak for anyone else, but I talked to my husband before I had it done. We discussed at length what this meant to me and us in many ways. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone, in a long term relationship, NOT discussing the surgery and the anticipated changes with their spouse/partner.


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## fatgirlflyin

SexxyBBW69 said:


> HI, I mentioned the husband.. he is amazing he loved her for her she should have stayed that way.. I know for him I would



I would hope that she did what she had to do for her health and her happiness. I mean really, if she wasn't happy or she was unhealthy then screw what the husband thinks about it. She would be no good to him if she's miserable, no matter how much he loved her for her...


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## crazygrad

Well, I watched CFC last night. Well, they've certainly got a formula, eh? Every season, a fat rapper, a former sex pot who wants to be more than just Susy Hotass, a woman who WANTS to be a sexpot, a former child star- and a few others.

But beyond the predictably inherent in the formula, I thought Carnie was interesting. I guess I wonder why someone who doesn't want to be known just for her body (whatever size or shape it is) and have people watching the every channge that body experiences would do some of the things she's done. Whether or not the surgery shown was hers or not, she agreed to have it shown. She certainly hit the talk show, magazine,lecture circuits hard to discuss her wieght loss and plastic surgeries, which only continued the association of her with her body (and her rep as the fat woman who lost weight). Then she posed in Playboy (which I didn't know she'd done). And now this. It just seems at every turn she does something that keeps her in the public eye for her body and especially her weight.
I don't wish her ill- I hope she does well and gets what she wants out of this experience. I know how hard it can be to feel happy and healthy, mentally and physically. It just seems that some of the choices she made haven't made it easier for her to not be seen as the fat chick who lost weight and gained (or some such thing).


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## Miss Vickie

Tracyarts said:


> The sadness goes both ways. Sometimes there is no easy answer.



Truer words were never spoken, Tracy. Sometimes there are no easy answers at all, and all we can do is the best we know how to do at the time.


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## shy guy

crazygrad said:


> Well, I watched CFC last night. Well, they've certainly got a formula, eh? Every season, a fat rapper, a former sex pot who wants to be more than just Susy Hotass, a woman who WANTS to be a sexpot, a former child star- and a few others.
> 
> But beyond the predictably inherent in the formula, I thought Carnie was interesting. I guess I wonder why someone who doesn't want to be known just for her body (whatever size or shape it is) and have people watching the every channge that body experiences would do some of the things she's done. Whether or not the surgery shown was hers or not, she agreed to have it shown. She certainly hit the talk show, magazine,lecture circuits hard to discuss her wieght loss and plastic surgeries, which only continued the association of her with her body (and her rep as the fat woman who lost weight). Then she posed in Playboy (which I didn't know she'd done). And now this. It just seems at every turn she does something that keeps her in the public eye for her body and especially her weight.
> I don't wish her ill- I hope she does well and gets what she wants out of this experience. I know how hard it can be to feel happy and healthy, mentally and physically. It just seems that some of the choices she made haven't made it easier for her to not be seen as the fat chick who lost weight and gained (or some such thing).


Ok guys please don't flame me for this but...Carnie Wilson is a ''B'' list celeb she's doing CFC because she wants to be on T.V. again and spark her career back up mybe plug a book or something to do with her music but I don't know. I mean she made some good cash with her WLS right? I'm sure she could afford her own personal trainer so why do CFC when you can do the same stuff they do at home?


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## crazygrad

Shyguy- I think you hit a nail on the head. I think B list is a few letters too high though.


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## shy guy

crazygrad said:


> Shyguy- I think you hit a nail on the head. I think B list is a few letters too high though.


Well I was being nice and I think if this thing go's well for Carnie Wilson this might start some sort trend you never know we might see Ann Nicole Smith and Kristy Alley show up for CFC#7 or 8 lets just hope it gets ''caned'' before that happens...later


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## Miss Vickie

crazygrad said:


> Shyguy- I think you hit a nail on the head. I think B list is a few letters too high though.



Yeah I agree. How pathetic that any real famousness Carnie has is because of her weight loss (and gain ... and loss). Is she really so talentless that she has to rely on such a stupid thing to get noticed???

Never mind. I think I know the answer.


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## HappyFatChick

Is it just me that finds her incredibly annoying? She's like this chirpy, yappy child that WON'T shut up. And just babbles... And she's not that interesting or captivating.

I have to admit she looked really good in the last picture I saw of her. I think she's had a lot of plastic surgery or else the picture was when she was at her all-time low. She had a lot of makeup on and was covered from the neck down.


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## crazygrad

Its not just you- she's annoying.


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## PhatBiatch

Miss Vickie said:


> It seems sometimes like some folks want WLS patients to fail. It's like if we lose a bunch of weight, it's TOO fast or we look TOO awful or there's no WAY we're healthy (even lying about how well we're doing). If we don't lose weight or if we lose and regain, then it's "See? Told you so. Of course you regained your weight. EVERYONE does." (which is not true). I don't understand why people can't just honor each other's choices and wish each other well. What's so hard/painful/awful about that?




Because their feelings and actions are motivated by jealousy. I guess this is the nature of some people.


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## TheSadeianLinguist

TraciJo67 said:


> ...we are more active sexually than we've ever been...



I suspect your little bundle of joy will make sure you're too tired for that nonsense.


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## PhatBiatch

BaronAaron said:


> I want to know what in heck her husband thinks about all this. They met when she was over 300 pounds, right? So, unless he's a total celeb-whore, he probably dug her body then.I can only imagine what it must be like to fall in love and marry a woman over 300 pounds, then she has weight loss surgery and all the fat falls away and you are left to get in bed every night with a pile of skin. It must be like making love to a 90-year-old.
> 
> And then surgery to remove the skin, so you have vicious wicked scars. And then they GAIN 100 pounds, then lose it again. yikes yikes yikes no one ever mentions the husband.




Well there are men out there who just like women. He could be a guy who just really dug her. It's comforting in a way to know that if a guy likes you at that weight and you lose he likes you as well, and vice versa. It really would be a shame to lose a spouse because of the size of a persons body has changed, up or down.


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## PhatBiatch

shy guy said:


> Ok guys please don't flame me for this but...Carnie Wilson is a ''B'' list celeb she's doing CFC because she wants to be on T.V. again and spark her career back up mybe plug a book or something to do with her music but I don't know. I mean she made some good cash with her WLS right? I'm sure she could afford her own personal trainer so why do CFC when you can do the same stuff they do at home?




I do think most people know why she's doing CFC, I think I actually read it in quite a few posts. I've seen her hosting on E biggest celeb meltdowns or something and she was with a hired trainer for that show (studio hired or not). I'm sure she has a trainer, she had one when she was going through the process of changing her body. I mean I will give her credit for that, she was determined to exercise after she had the surgery. She didn't just live a sedentary life. Kirstie Alley is making a pretty penny toting Jenny Craig. Not bad for a girl who never wanted to be a role model for fat people.


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## shy guy

PhatBiatch said:


> I do think most people know why she's doing CFC, I think I actually read it in quite a few posts. I've seen her hosting on E biggest celeb meltdowns or something and she was with a hired trainer for that show (studio hired or not). I'm sure she has a trainer, she had one when she was going through the process of changing her body. I mean I will give her credit for that, she was determined to exercise after she had the surgery. She didn't just live a sedentary life. Kirstie Alley is making a pretty penny toting Jenny Craig. Not bad for a girl who never wanted to be a role model for fat people.


It seems that getting fat then losing it is the best why to get press and make money in HollyWood these days how sad...later


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## moonvine

PhatBiatch said:


> Kirstie Alley is making a pretty penny toting Jenny Craig. Not bad for a girl who never wanted to be a role model for fat people.



Being a shill for Jenny Craig is not "being a role model for fat people" in any way, shape or form.


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## mossystate

BaronAaron said:


> and you are left to get in bed every night with a pile of skin. It must be like making love to a 90-year-old.
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...and when that pile of skin hops on and thinks she will find a juicy sausage, only to find a soft frank..and he whines that he is tired..not feeling well...etc..etc.....she should divorce him..on the spot..right there..that poor woman!!!!...Aaron, I truly feel sorry for any woman who enters a relationship with you.
> 
> As for Carny Wilson..eeeeeek..she is like claws on a blackboard.


----------



## FitChick

HappyFatChick said:


> I liked Carnie before she had surgery. I thought she was cute and fun.
> Now she's not so cute (kind of haggard looking and dreadfully scary without makeup) and just seems mad at the world all the time. Her whole personality seemed to change post-op. Maybe she's just hungry?
> 
> WLS may work for some. Maybe it just wasn't enough for her.




The haggard/prematurely aged look comes from losing weight too fast, and not doing aerobics and strength training (and not drinking LOTS of water) while doing so. 

Its a shame because if she had lost weight the healthy way (eating moderately-sized meals that are lower fat, did aerobics and strength training), instead of looking older she'd actually have lost ten years off her age!


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## FitChick

SamanthaNY said:


> Do ya think that maybe... possibly... gee, I dunno - that her husband LOVES her, and gets in bed every night with his WIFE and the mother of his child? And not just a body he has sex with? Here's a wild, madcap concept - he loves her no matter what her body currently looks like, so making love is still exactly that - not just fucking for his own pleasure. Wow!
> 
> If her husband reacts anything like you did, then he's not worth mentioning.



Men are very, very visual creatures, which is why mostly all porn is geared toward them.

Women for the most part are not that visual. Women like and want to think that men view things the way they do, but the hard reality is, most men don't. Most men need to really like what they SEE in front of them in order for them to (ahem) "rise to the occasion". They won't admit this to women but its true.


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## PhatBiatch

moonvine said:


> Being a shill for Jenny Craig is not "being a role model for fat people" in any way, shape or form.



Did I say it was?


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## crazygrad

I think I see what FitChick is getting at- that Alley never wanted to be a role model for fat people, yet she's pushing Jenny craig- in essence trying to be a role model to get people to use JCraig and lose weight too.

Frankly, I think Carnie looks good- not old or haggard at all. i still find her annoying, but she looks fine.

Oh, I had WLS and look much younger now. In fact, I've had a couple of students ask me out. (I don't go, of course.)


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## FitChick

I've only met one person who had WLS who didn't look wrinkly and haggard, but maybe that was because she had not yet lost all the weight she hoped to (she was only about 1/3 of the way there last time I saw her.)

It really aged Star Jones! I think it makes people look older because the loose skin gets all wrinkly and wrinkles in most people's minds =age.

When losing weight, however its done, its vitally important to do strength training, aerobics and drink LOTS of water. Most days I drink nothing but water and plenty of it. Movie stars refer to water as their secret fountain of youth, in fact. It keeps the skin hydrated. I think maybe for me it also helps that I have oily skin and always have...people with oily skin rarely get wrinkles.


----------



## Aliena

crazygrad said:


> I also can't speak for anyone else, but I talked to my husband before I had it done. We discussed at length what this meant to me and us in many ways. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone, in a long term relationship, NOT discussing the surgery and the anticipated changes with their spouse/partner.




My husband and I talk about it everyday. He and I are both in the local program here at the WLS center. We are constantly talking about how our lives will be very different, in every aspect; from personal changes to marital changes. 

We look at it from every angle that we can think of, the good and the bad. The other day we discussed the complications of WLS and what it would mean to the both of us, should the surgery has complications.

There is a lot of ground to cover before you just hop on table, and anyone with half an ounce of brain in their head knows just how important it is to consider *ALL* possibilities. 

I can not speak for Carnie Wilson or Kirsty Alley, I don't care to, but for me I see my death prematurely staying on the road I'm currently on. It's that pure and simple. 

By the way, Miss Vickie, your avatar is just fantastic!! You really look good!:wubu:


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## Miss Vickie

Aliena said:


> By the way, Miss Vickie, your avatar is just fantastic!! You really look good!:wubu:



Thank you, sweetheart. Not bad for a wrinkly, haggard WLS patient, eh?  

I'm glad to hear you and your sweetie are talking everything out. It's SO important -- I cannot stress how important knowing all the possibilities and talking them out is.


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## TraciJo67

I love the avatar too, Vickie. Meant to tell you that. 

I'm 2+ years post-op and I most definitely do not appear haggard or wrinkly either. Well, mebbe a little wrinkly. I am rapidly closing in on 40, so I forgive myself  The first year, most particularly the first 6 months, were a different story. Looking back at photos of myself, I see that I was extremely pale and had a gaunt appearance (despite still weighing more than 200 lbs). 

In early July I had to give up jogging because I developed a stress fracture. My foot was immobilized for 3 weeks, and the pain (surprisingly little) went away within a week. The specialist that I went to told me not to exercise for at least 8 weeks & said, in fact, that jogging is not a good form of exercise for anyone, ever! -- but especially not for pre-menopausal women. Since I have been restricting my activity level I have gained a few pounds. Nowadays I speed walk (and wear the best athletic shoes I can afford, without getting all ridiculous & spending several hundred dollars), and do Yoga. Both feel great. I'm hardly a medical expert, but I know myself & my body, and I have to do exercise that feels good and is enjoyable for me, otherwise I lose interest. Most people do. I'm not interested in appearing toned & buff. I'm interested in looking & feeling healthy.


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## Miss Vickie

Traci, why did your doc say it's not good for pre-menopausal women? And I think you look great. :wubu: You were a beautiful fat woman and now you're a beautiful thin woman. 

Even if I did look worse (and I don't), it wouldn't matter, because I feel so much better. I do miss my butt, though. I had a cute butt and now... now... it's a shadow of its former self.


----------



## Sweet Tooth

Carrie said:


> I blame her for making me a hopeless loser hell bent on wearing out my Wilson Phillips CD in the early 90's.



She's gets 50% of the blame for me wearing a stupid black cotton [unlined] blazer to clubs. Janet Jackson gets the other half, and full blame for the lace bustier. [It was way past Madonna.]


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## FitChick

I just realized that some of the WLS women here probably took my comments personally...I didn't mean anything against any one person, but in general I have noticed that the WLS patients *I know* (as in, offline) do tend to look washed-out, wrinkly and gaunt. I figured it must be due to WLS or losing the weight too fast, because I lost a lot too (without WLS), and do not look that way. I really can't comment on anyone here online because the pics are too small to really determine.

Remember how awful Star Jones looked? It actually aged her!


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## TraciJo67

FitChick said:


> I really can't comment on anyone here online because the pics are too small to really determine.
> 
> Remember how awful Star Jones looked? It actually aged her!



Please allow me to rush out *right now* and gather a glossy close-up of my face and post it online so that you can comment on my degree of wrinkly gauntness  Anita, do you ever actually think before you allow the words to roll off your fingertips? For the record, I didn't automatically assume that you were referring to Vickie or I, in your initial comments. I figured it was just Anita, being Anita. 

Vickie -- my ortho specialist told me that he sees many injuries in women who jog. For me, he was concerned with the WLS and menstrual issues both as I am calcium deficient & that may have contributed to why I got a stress fracture in the first place. To be fair, he also said that my injury could have been avoided had I taken some precautions. I was wearing Nike trainers (thinking - wow, if Nike makes them, and charges $70 for them, they gotta be good ), jogging on asphalt & concrete, and pushing myself far harder than I should have. All mistakes. The reason that I am speed walking now is that I enjoy all of the benefits of jogging (fewer calories burned, but that's OK), and I am not grinding my feet into the pavement with so much force.


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## FitChick

Traci, you don't have to do any such thing. 

I was trying, actually, to be NICE, and TACTFUL, by not commenting on your pic or Vickie's, okay? So I said that I really can't tell because the pics are too small and my eyesight is not as good as it used to be....which is largely true.


But as for the WLS patients I know IN PERSON, yes, they do look rather aged and wrinkly. I chalk that up not to the surgery really, but to the fact that they most likely lost weight too fast, and did not do strength training and aerobics and drink lots of water IN ADDITION to the surgery.

There are different ways to lose fat...not all leave a person looking good.


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## TraciJo67

FitChick said:


> Traci, you don't have to do any such thing.
> 
> I was trying, actually, to be NICE, and TACTFUL, by not commenting on your pic or Vickie's, okay? So I said that I really can't tell because the pics are too small and my eyesight is not as good as it used to be....which is largely true.
> 
> 
> But as for the WLS patients I know IN PERSON, yes, they do look rather aged and wrinkly. I chalk that up not to the surgery really, but to the fact that they most likely lost weight too fast, and did not do strength training and aerobics and drink lots of water IN ADDITION to the surgery.
> 
> There are different ways to lose fat...not all leave a person looking good.



Hey, Vickie -- she was trying to be NICE and TACTFUL


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## TraciJo67

BTW, Anita -- I suspect that you assumed my earlier comments (and later, the sarcasm that flew right over your head) were some kind of solicitation for approval or confirmation that I am, indeed, attractive and healthy in appearance. When I need such confirmation, I solicit it from my husband, who is quite impartial  

I write what I do because I know that there are members of this board who have decided, for various health & personal reasons, to seek WLS. And while I would never recommend it to anyone, as I am not a healthcare professional & not aware of their personal circumstances, I do know that comments such as yours are not necessarily a representation of the truth. I know it because I *am* post-WLS, and I would suspect, given my age and excellent fitness level, that I rival you in appearance of health. Like you, I am an exercise fanatic. Like you, I drink a lot of water. Unlike you, I had WLS and that is how I lost most of my weight. And I'm not asking for your input here; I'm *telling* you that objectively & measurably, I have the appearance of a fit and healthy woman in her mid to late 30's. 

If you have even a *shred* of human decency, how about remembering that there are people who frequent this very board, and they are contemplating - or have decided on - having WLS. They don't need to hear your smug, snide comments, generalizing AS PER USUAL, that "most" post-op's look "wrinkly and haggard."

The truth is that most *do* appear this way initially, and that, with proper exercise & attention to nutritional requirements, most if not all will lose that haggard appearance within a year.


----------



## Aliena

Hey Anita, why not post a picture of yourself and let us be the judge to whether you look haggard and wrinklely or not. I mean is it fair for you to make those kind of remarks behind a closed avatar?? 

Well, thank God I'm not really that superficial!! :doh:

I fully expect my body to go through a lot of transitions before it adjusts to the changes brought about by surgery. And I am DEFINITELY going to be doing it by the book, so there ya have it!


----------



## FitChick

Aliena said:


> Hey Anita, why not post a picture of yourself and let us be the judge to whether you look haggard and wrinklely or not. I mean is it fair for you to make those kind of remarks behind a closed avatar??
> 
> Well, thank God I'm not really that superficial!! :doh:
> 
> I fully expect my body to go through a lot of transitions before it adjusts to the changes brought about by surgery. And I am DEFINITELY going to be doing it by the book, so there ya have it!



I would if I had a working scanner or digital camera, but I don't.
What I find funny is, my husband says the best pic he has seen of me lately is the one they took for my state ID card....and you KNOW how awful those pics usually are! But this one looks very good, I was amazed.


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## mossystate

............and when I reach 'a certain age', my face will be wrinkley,I will look even more tired than I do at age 44....but...I will be............alive....

FC, your type is one of the reasons so many women(in particular) beat themselves up 24/7..good for you


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## crazygrad

I assumed she was talking 'bout me. 'Cause I'm so hideous I don't even post a picture!

Really, FitChick, do you think we don't know about water (and yes you can have too much. Hyponatremia (though I may have spelled it wrong) can be very dangerous)? In another thread, you brought up how veg diets aren't necessarily low fat and healthy. Why do you assume we don't know these things? Is it because we're still fat (well, some of us at least)? Because we had WLS and you didn't? Or do you just like to hold forth like some kind of expert? 

I think Vickie and Traci look great, though I had a different picture in my head for Vickie. I don't think Star Jones looks good but I thought she was not attractive when fat, and now she looks like an alien- so you see- to each their own.

My point? For all your blather about how great you think fat women are, you don't give us much credit for being intelligent and being able to make choices for ourselves.


----------



## Miss Vickie

TraciJo67 said:


> Please allow me to rush out *right now* and gather a glossy close-up of my face and post it online so that you can comment on my degree of wrinkly gauntness  Anita, do you ever actually think before you allow the words to roll off your fingertips? For the record, I didn't automatically assume that you were referring to Vickie or I, in your initial comments. I figured it was just Anita, being Anita.



I agree. Besides, it takes huge balls to post negative remarks about other women when you refuse to post a picture of yourself, doesn't it?  Oh well, at least I'm growing my hair out long. *whew* That way I won't be a total loser.  

Believe it or not, Anita, for some of us it's not about looks but about health, mobility, and living life to the fullest. Even if it made me look like Phyllis Diller, it'd be well worth it. Fortunately, for me, it's had the opposite effect.



> Vickie -- my ortho specialist told me that he sees many injuries in women who jog. For me, he was concerned with the WLS and menstrual issues both as I am calcium deficient & that may have contributed to why I got a stress fracture in the first place. To be fair, he also said that my injury could have been avoided had I taken some precautions. I was wearing Nike trainers (thinking - wow, if Nike makes them, and charges $70 for them, they gotta be good ), jogging on asphalt & concrete, and pushing myself far harder than I should have. All mistakes. The reason that I am speed walking now is that I enjoy all of the benefits of jogging (fewer calories burned, but that's OK), and I am not grinding my feet into the pavement with so much force.



It's so hard to know what the "right" thing to do is. I've always been afraid of high impact exercise, so jogging, even at my weight, hasn't been something I wanted to do. It sounds like that's a good thing. Your foot's doing better, though? That's good. And do you think jogging on a treadmill is better since the surface is a bit softer, with more "give"??

I'm glad you found an exercise you like, even if it doesn't burn the same number of calories. Sounds like you're doing just fine on that front, anyway.


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## Miss Vickie

crazygrad said:


> I think Vickie and Traci look great, though I had a different picture in my head for Vickie. I don't think Star Jones looks good but I thought she was not attractive when fat, and now she looks like an alien- so you see- to each their own.
> 
> My point? For all your blather about how great you think fat women are, you don't give us much credit for being intelligent and being able to make choices for ourselves.



Thanks, crazygrad. BTW, I'm curious -- what did you think I'd look like? That's not the best pic of me, but it's the most recent one and I'm trying a new hairstyle (no bangs for the first time EVER) and seeing it over and over again here helps me decide whether I want to keep it or not. I'd been up all night havin' babies (or helping women have babies -- they do the hard work) and had just gotten back from visiting a friend in the hospital. So that's me, up 24 hours with no sleep, tired but happy from doing the work I love, having good friends, and busily getting ready to see my daughter in a play.

I really hate the negative comments made about women's looks. To me it's just more objectification done to women, judging them based on how they look, as though it's their JOB to be eye candy for others. I would think as fat women (or former fat women) we'd have had enough of that. But apparently, for some? Not so much.


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## Miss Vickie

mossystate said:


> ............and when I reach 'a certain age', my face will be wrinkley,I will look even more tired than I do at age 44....but...I will be............alive....
> 
> FC, your type is one of the reasons so many women(in particular) beat themselves up 24/7..good for you



True. Catty remarks about how women look should have no place on a size acceptance board. If someone made negative comments about how someone looked bad after GAINING weight, we'd be verbally stoned (as well we should). How is it any different when someone loses weight?


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## TheSadeianLinguist

FitChick said:


> I just realized that some of the WLS women here probably took my comments personally...I didn't mean anything against any one person, but in general I have noticed that the WLS patients *I know* (as in, offline) do tend to look washed-out, wrinkly and gaunt. I figured it must be due to WLS or losing the weight too fast, because I lost a lot too (without WLS), and do not look that way. I really can't comment on anyone here online because the pics are too small to really determine.
> 
> Remember how awful Star Jones looked? It actually aged her!



I somehow doubt you're a vision of lovliness, and even if you were, it's overshadowed by your nastiness. 

The "gaunt" look you're talking about is caused by malnutrition. Can happen to anyone. Most WLS people remedy it by diet and exercise, although initially it's pretty hard to avoid when basically on a starvation diet. 

BTW, all you need to do to get a picture online is go to a Wal-Mart or Office Max or something similar with a picture in hand and ask them to put it on disk. Shit, PM me and I'll give you my address, and you can mail me a photo, and I'll get it on disk for you. If you're as beautiful as the model you claimed to look like, you're cheating us all by not sharing your photo! I'm sure once we see you, the paysite board will close in shame of your beauty. 

Put up or shut up.

Edit: And as far as calling people "WLS women," how mean is that to define people by their method of weight loss? That'd be like Traci and Vickie calling us with IBS "shitty women."


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## TraciJo67

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> That'd be like Traci and Vickie calling us with IBS "shitty women."



Well, honey -- if the shoe fits 

Or more accurately, if the pooper scooper suits 'er. 

And yes, I really am attempting some levity, not actively trying to insult you, Anita.


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## TheSadeianLinguist

LMAO, well... You make a point.


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## crazygrad

Hi, Vickie, you say some things that remind me alot of a friend of mine, so I guess I pictured her!


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## Donna

I knew the shit would start to fly sooner or later.

oh dear lord, please don't let this be another case of it sounding funnier inside my head than it is on the screen.....


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## TheSadeianLinguist

Donnaalicious said:


> I knew the shit would start to fly sooner or later.
> 
> oh dear lord, please don't let this be another case of it sounding funnier inside my head than it is on the screen.....



I knew someone would go there! I snorted.


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## love dubh

Miss Vickie said:


> And do you think jogging on a treadmill is better since the surface is a bit softer, with more "give"??




Nooooo. Treadmills are EVIL. EVIL! Try not to use them. If you run at too fast a speed, you're essentially throwing your legs back, which can't be good for your muscles.


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## Sandie S-R

*Moderator hat on...

Ladies....I'm seeing some personal attacks being slung here. They need to stop, now. Debate WLS, debate ideas, have discussions....but do *not* make nasty comments about how people look, or personal digs at each other. You are *all* treading on thin ice here (Anita) so please think before you post.*

You may now return to your regularly scheduled controversy.


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## Fyreflyintheskye

TraciJo67 said:


> If you were, I think you'd understand that the people we love *are* beautiful to us - that is our reality, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.



That was very beautifully said, Traci  Thank you for making me smile


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## Miss Vickie

ShakenBakeSharleen said:


> That was very beautifully said, Traci  Thank you for making me smile



I agree. Traci's comments were very kind, and some of the most insightful of this thread.


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## FitChick

I will say one thing and one thing only:

If you don't REALLY want an honest opinion of what many people can look like after WLS, don't ask or solicit opinions. This to me is not about being catty, its about being honest. I never did understand why so many women ask questions about their looks, and then when given honest answers, get upset.

As for why don't I post a pic of myself, I explained I do not have a working scanner or digital camera at present.
However, here is a pic someone sent me which they say looks exactly like me, and I agree. 

Imagine this woman looking about 33-35, and same body size (since I'm told I look about 33-35 now), and you will know what I currently look like:







(now you can also see why a lot of people mistakenly think I am Middle Eastern or Hispanic!)


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## TheSadeianLinguist

Honey, she's a model... With boob implants and a pierced nose. You're not a model. This is me being nice. 

Look, lots of us resemble certain celebs. I've been told by several people I resemble Katie Couric. However, I have slightly chubby cheeks, a bubble butt, chunkier thighs, and VERY dark hair. 

Like I said before, honestly, if you're THAT pretty, it's very easy to take a few pictures and get them on a CD at Wal-Mart. Or mail me a picture and I'll post it. 

See, here's why it's hard to believe you...

Hey, everyone! I look just like Gisele, except younger! Here's what I look like:






See? I can say it, but it doesn't make it true.

This isn't a you thing. If Traci starts going on that she looks just like Madonna, I'm demanding a bigger picture.

It's also okay if you just don't want to post a picture, but it's just plain silly to act like you look like some beautiful model, and then pretend there's no human way you can show us a photo.


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## crazygrad

TSL, I never gave you permission to post that pic of me. Cease and desist or I'll get my lawyers up yo' ass.


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## TheSadeianLinguist

Never, Gisele! Never!


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## crazygrad

Oh. Its ON!


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## Aliena

I'm not even going to touch the last post by FC.


O.K. I lied!!! View attachment smileyrofl.gif
View attachment smileyrofl.gif
View attachment smileyrofl.gif


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## Aliena

I think the point is that it's not about looking good, rather it's about _feeling_ good. :bow:


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## Miss Vickie

FitChick said:


> I will say one thing and one thing only:
> 
> If you don't REALLY want an honest opinion of what many people can look like after WLS, don't ask or solicit opinions. This to me is not about being catty, its about being honest. I never did understand why so many women ask questions about their looks, and then when given honest answers, get upset.



Yeah but nobody asked your opinion, Anita. Not about whether long hair is flattering. Not about whether someone looks better after weight loss. But you oh so cattily provided it. Believe me when I say you would be the LAST person whose opinion I'd ask about anything, especially when it comes to beauty secrets. The very last. I just don't value your opinions very much, largely because of some of the unkind, nasty, misogynistic stuff that has come out of your mouth.

So did the women you were judging because they had short hair ask for your opinion? I'm somehow doubting that very much...



> As for why don't I post a pic of myself, I explained I do not have a working scanner or digital camera at present.
> However, here is a pic someone sent me which they say looks exactly like me, and I agree.



And "someone" said I look just like Pamela Anderson Lee. No really, I DO! Seriously!!! Okay so she's blond, I'm not, she has breast implants, I don't, and she's skinny. But other than that, I'm a dead ringer for her! No kidding! /sarcasm.

I don't care why you don't post a picture of yourself. But I think your judgmental comments about how women look are inappropriate, particularly on, you know, a size acceptance site. It's anathema to acceptance. Besides, comments like yours completely make your point (and maybe that's your intent) about women being catty and unkind to each other. If your behavior toward women is any indication, then I suppose you could argue that you're right. However, fortunately for our gender, attitudes like yours, at least in my experience, are blessedly rare. 

I have the good fortune to work with some really remarkable women. They are brave, strong, loving, kind, funny, and smart. They tell each other the truth, even when it hurts. They back each other up, over little things, and also when a life (or two) are in danger. They support each other through grief and pain, and laugh together when things are light and fun. In short, we've got each other's back, and work as a team to give excellent care to our patients, and to each other. It's too bad you don't know women like this, Anita. It might change your mind about the fairer sex.


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## Miss Vickie

maire dubh said:


> Nooooo. Treadmills are EVIL. EVIL! Try not to use them. If you run at too fast a speed, you're essentially throwing your legs back, which can't be good for your muscles.



Maire, I never thought of it that way. Me, I'm too scared to run on one; I just know I'll do a George Jetson on them. I walk, briskly, on the treadmills at our club, which gives me a good cardio workout. I'm too much of a chicken to run, though.


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## activistfatgirl

FitChick said:


> (now you can also see why a lot of people mistakenly think I am Middle Eastern or Hispanic!)



Damn, FitChick was hot. Who knew?? :wubu: 
It would have been fun to spend a bunch of time flirting with her.

I'm just kidding you guys, don't worry.


----------



## SoVerySoft

Sandie S-R said:


> *Moderator hat on...
> 
> Ladies....I'm seeing some personal attacks being slung here. They need to stop, now. Debate WLS, debate ideas, have discussions....but do *not* make nasty comments about how people look, or personal digs at each other. You are *all* treading on thin ice here (Anita) so please think before you post.*
> 
> You may now return to your regularly scheduled controversy.




Another Moderator hat on...

*I need to agree with Sandie. Can you gals give it a rest for a bit? Keep it on topic, thanks.*

SVS


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## TheSadeianLinguist

Returning to the topic:

It seems like while WLS may help some people, the most successful people never really end up "skinny." Seems they're just not designed for it. I can't picture Carnie Wilson at a size 0. Maybe that's just me.


----------



## crazygrad

True. Most of the people I know who've done it are still often in plus sizes. Very few, it seems, end up small.


----------



## CuteyChubb

Wow. Reading how this thread changed sure was a bit entertaining. It seems like there is a big divide about WLS. 
I acctually wanted the surgery really bad for a time. My insurance wouldn't cover it. I got to see other women who had had it and the dramatic changes they went through. They looked great to me. They were way more active that's for sure. I have changed my mind about wanting the surgery over the past few months. I had a c-section in January which had complications. I had to have another surgery to fix the first and speant a lot of time recovering. After that, I decided I could not voluntarily go under the knife, ever. The risks were too great to me. 

For those who have had the surgery and are doing well, I know you are probably happy you did it. I'm happy for you. For those who hate WLS for all of your good reasons, that's cool but why give the folks who have had it and are dealing with it such a hard time? I don't know, it just seems so silly.


----------



## Miss Vickie

crazygrad said:


> True. Most of the people I know who've done it are still often in plus sizes. Very few, it seems, end up small.



Yup. Same here. I'm a size 16 and very happy at this size. All of my weight related co-morbids are gone, and I can wear clothes from The Gap. It doesn't get any better than that.


----------



## Dibaby35

crazygrad said:


> True. Most of the people I know who've done it are still often in plus sizes. Very few, it seems, end up small.



So still being in a plus size makes me a failure?? Well thats what I feel you are saying anyways. Honestly this is what pisses me off. Success doesn't always equal being a "regular size" I'm a size 20 now 3 years after my surgery. I was a size 28/30 pre-surgery. Does that make me a failure in your eyes? I'm off my meds and I feel better about myself then I have in years. The best thing is I can fit in any kind of seating now...roller coasters included! If I didn't have the surgery I would have been probably at least a size 32 by now..if not bigger. My health would have been diminishing and I know that. Sometime its the big picture (no-pun intended..lol) that you have to look at not just what you see now. Have any of you ever been able to keep weight off after you lost it for more than a year? I sure the hell haven't before my surgery. All I ever did was loose and gain more. It's been over 3 years and still haven't gained it back!..wow! THAT is success people!

Now if I just get serious about exercise...I would be a "regular size". That will come when I am ready for the challenge. In the mean time...I'm really happy where I'm at. When you do decide to do surgery you do have to do your part if you want to loose a huge amount of weight to fit into what the doctors have deemed your ideal weight. But thats up to you if you wanna do that and use your tool to its optimal compacity. 

Oh and to the main topic of this thread...I know I don't look old or haggard cause I'm 36 and still get the occasional carding for alcohol...makes me snicker.


----------



## TheSadeianLinguist

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> It seems like while WLS may help some people, the most successful people never really end up "skinny." Seems they're just not designed for it. I can't picture Carnie Wilson at a size 0. Maybe that's just me.



Di,

She was replying to the above quote, so I don't think CG was slamming you at all.


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## Dibaby35

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Di,
> 
> She was replying to the above quote, so I don't think CG was slamming you at all.



Mmm..k..sorry

I think I'm pmsing...I feel like growling at the world.


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## TheSadeianLinguist

Ha. Me too. Don't feel alone there.


----------



## crazygrad

Hi, Di,
I'm a year post op and I'm about an 18 so no slam. Nor am I saying anything about success rates. Medically, success for WLS is defined as losing 50-75% of excess weight. So success can only be determined by weight, not size. I had WLS to take care of my back (which was chronically in pain), treat PCOS and psuedotumor and avoid diabetes *which gallops through my family). I was unhappy with how I looked but changing my size and appearance was very much a secondary concern. I'm of the mind that WLS should be undertaken for health not beauty so I'd never say someone's ending size is a determinant of success.

Since plus size starts at 12-14 or 16 in most stores, the average woman is a plus size! The average American woman is a 16 and I for one do NOT think the average woman is fat at all.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was suggesting that being in a plus size after WLS meant not being successful. I was just responding to a previous post. Some people think everyone who has WLS ends up prancing around as a size 2 in a string bikini, weighing offers from PLayboy, and really those folks are the exception. Most of end up as a smaller plus size- hopefully healthier than we were before the surgery, more active and feeling better.


----------



## Dibaby35

crazygrad said:


> Hi, Di,
> I'm a year post op and I'm about an 18 so no slam. Nor am I saying anything about success rates. Medically, success for WLS is defined as losing 50-75% of excess weight. So success can only be determined by weight, not size. I had WLS to take care of my back (which was chronically in pain), treat PCOS and psuedotumor and avoid diabetes *which gallops through my family). I was unhappy with how I looked but changing my size and appearance was very much a secondary concern. I'm of the mind that WLS should be undertaken for health not beauty so I'd never say someone's ending size is a determinant of success.
> 
> Since plus size starts at 12-14 or 16 in most stores, the average woman is a plus size! The average American woman is a 16 and I for one do NOT think the average woman is fat at all.
> 
> I'm sorry if it seemed I was suggesting that being in a plus size after WLS meant not being successful. I was just responding to a previous post. Some people think everyone who has WLS ends up prancing around as a size 2 in a string bikini, weighing offers from PLayboy, and really those folks are the exception. Most of end up as a smaller plus size- hopefully healthier than we were before the surgery, more active and feeling better.



No worries...I just didn't read it right at all. You definitely hit it right on the head. I absolutely agree.


----------



## pani

"For those who hate WLS for all of your good reasons, that's cool but why give the folks who have had it and are dealing with it such a hard time? I don't know, it just seems so silly."

I am not trying to flame anyone. It seems to me though that it is just the opposite and the people who have had WLS almost dominate this board. There are so few places for SA advocates, but even here a person has to walk on eggshells and be careful what they say about weight loss. I only pop in once in awhile, but every random thread I visit, the tone is more like a Weight Watchers meeting than a fat acceptance site. Again, I am not trying to flame anyone. As an activist I really don't feel comfortable here because I can see myself saying something like "rapid weight loss CAN age a person"in total innocence with no malice intended what so ever. To me it is just making an observation.

As a researcher interested in this issue, I am genuinely interested in why so many women who have had WLS need to talk about it an SA boards? It just seems there are so many other forums where they could go and be accepted and celebrated. There are so few places on the net where people can let their hair down and be comfortable in the realm of size acceptance. Again, I an not trying to offend anyone, just curious as to why the tone of this board has changed so much from its inception.

p.s. I can't see how posting a pic or not posting a pic is relevant, but if anyone really needs to know what I look like, the only place I have a pic posted is bigfatblog.com under Pani113.
*


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## activistfatgirl

pani said:


> "For those who hate WLS for all of your good reasons, that's cool but why give the folks who have had it and are dealing with it such a hard time? I don't know, it just seems so silly."
> 
> I am not trying to flame anyone. It seems to me though that it is just the opposite and the people who have had WLS almost dominate this board. There are so few places for SA advocates, but even here a person has to walk on eggshells and be careful what they say about weight loss. I only pop in once in awhile, but every random thread I visit, the tone is more like a Weight Watchers meeting than a fat acceptance site. Again, I am not trying to flame anyone. As an activist I really don't feel comfortable here because I can see myself saying something like "rapid weight loss CAN age a person"in total innocence with no malice intended what so ever. To me it is just making an observation.
> 
> As a researcher interested in this issue, I am genuinely interested in why so many women who have had WLS need to talk about it an SA boards? It just seems there are so many other forums where they could go and be accepted and celebrated. There are so few places on the net where people can let their hair down and be comfortable in the realm of size acceptance. Again, I an not trying to offend anyone, just curious as to why the tone of this board has changed so much from its inception.
> 
> p.s. I can't see how posting a pic or not posting a pic is relevant, but if anyone really needs to know what I look like, the only place I have a pic posted is bigfatblog.com under Pani113.
> *




I haven't been following this thread at all so I can't comment much past thanking you for your input and I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to say something. I hope people take it seriously. Thanks!


----------



## Miss Vickie

pani said:


> I am not trying to flame anyone. It seems to me though that it is just the opposite and the people who have had WLS almost dominate this board.



I assume you mean the WLS discussion board? If so, where else would you have us post about WLS? We're very respectful, I feel, in not discussing WLS anywhere else but here. We discuss it here because this is the place to discuss it, and often we are responding to attacks or misinformation (or misinformational attacks) from non-WLS patients. If you look at who has started the threads on this board, you'd no doubt notice that. We're not a "rah rah cheerleading" board like you might see on obesity help. There are many times I could post a "NSV" or something about how wonderful I feel, but out of respect for the people at Dimensions, I don't; the last thing I want to do is make anyone feel badly. If you feel, on the other hand, that those who have had WLS dominate Dimensions at large (pun intended  ) then I'd invite you to take another look. We're the minority, which is as it should be. 

As for flaming, we've flamed no one. We wholly support the right of our sisters and brothers in size not to have WLS and to live their lives as happy, fat folks. However, we feel (and I'm sorry if I'm speaking for others and they can correct me if I'm wrong) that we also deserve respect. For the most part, we've gotten it, however when we are judged harshly by certain members of this community for doing what's right for US, then we step in and defend ourselves, and each other, just as we would do if someone came in and said you were wrong to be fat.



> There are so few places for SA advocates, but even here a person has to walk on eggshells and be careful what they say about weight loss. I only pop in once in awhile, but every random thread I visit, the tone is more like a Weight Watchers meeting than a fat acceptance site.



There are even fewer places for people who have had WLS who aren't disgusted by fat to discuss the changes in their body that I feel this is the perfect place to us. Many of us struggled with size acceptance and most of us are still quite big and certainly don't fit into the medically optimal thin category. And as you can see, we're good with that, since we like our curves! If you've really visited Weight Watchers meetings (or Jenny Craig, or what have you) you would find people moaning about weighing a "fat" 135 pounds and trying to get into a string bikini of arguing points, or other silliness. 

Obviously for those of us who have been 500 pounds (or even 300 pounds) that's not relevant to our lives; if I don't lose more weight, I'm happy, and most of us are good with where we're at. We didn't have WLS because we hate fat; we had WLS because we were crippled -- literally -- by our weight and we were tired of it. Finding a place to discuss weight control for health reasons is difficult if you don't buy into the thin is in thing and don't feel desperate to get down to 120 pounds dripping wet. In that regard, Dimensions is the perfect place for us. 

And further, if discussion of weight loss offends you, I invite you -- respectfully -- to not visit this forum. I'm offended by discussion about gaining so... guess what board I don't frequent?  What I don't do is go there and say how offended I am about it because I figure if people need that place to talk about their interests (as we do here) then they should have it. Them discussing gaining has no impact on MY life, unless I make it so. The same goes with our discussions regarding WLS (and again, look at the topics and you'll see that the majority of threads were started by people who didn't have WLS to bash those who did). We do our own thing here, way at the bottom of the page, and it's good. We're not trying to convert anyone. We're just living our lives, supporting each other as needed, and providing information when asked.



> As an activist I really don't feel comfortable here because I can see myself saying something like "rapid weight loss CAN age a person"in total innocence with no malice intended what so ever. To me it is just making an observation.



And I can just as easily make an observation (and as a nurse I have some knowledge to back me up) that very high weights increase a person's risk of heart disease, diabetes, lymphadema and a host of other co-morbidities -- purly as an observation. But pointing that out does no one any good because for many of us, we can't change our size and so we're trying to learn to be at peace with it. No malice -- just information and opinion, right?

My issue with comments like "weight loss makes people look old and haggard" is that it's -- yet again! -- another judgment on women (because it's usually directed at women). As a woman and a feminist, I'm tired of me and my sisters judged based on our looks, as though that really mattered at all. If I look older for having WLS, so what? My heart disease risk has plummeted, my diabetes risk has done the same, I can breathe, I can walk, I can run(!), I can work my ass off for 12 hours on a busy L&D floor and then come home and clean house, walk my dog, and be ready to go back to work again six nights in a row. These are all things I could not do at over 300 pounds. My lungs were failing, my joints were in screaming pain, and I could barely function. For me it's got nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with being a fully physically functioning participant in my life. But again -- this is a choice I made, for me. I'd never presume to judge another person's choices for their life. I don't live in their shoes -- they do. Just as you don't live in my shoes, right?



> As a researcher interested in this issue, I am genuinely interested in why so many women who have had WLS need to talk about it an SA boards?



As a ten year member of Dimensions, I feel I belong here. I'm still a plus size woman, therefore I belong at Dimensions. I discuss my WLS in the appropriate place because it's a part of my life -- just as my dog, my kids, my husband and my job are. To NOT talk about it would be to not be who I am. Are you saying we should just shut up and go home?



> It just seems there are so many other forums where they could go and be accepted and celebrated. There are so few places on the net where people can let their hair down and be comfortable in the realm of size acceptance. Again, I an not trying to offend anyone, just curious as to why the tone of this board has changed so much from its inception.



We've had this discussion ad nauseum and I think we've already answered your question many times over. If you've spent as much time here as you claim, then you KNOW why we want to discuss this here, why we WANT to be here, why we DESERVE to be here. I'm not getting into it again. As for the tone, I feel that we're overall supportive of people who have questions about WLS (something I wish I'd had when researching it) and the only problem is when people judge us harshly for making what is a very personal, very medical, very private decision. 

Again, if the tone bothers you, I'd like to respectfully invite you to not read the threads here. This place is chock full of fun things to read about. Why bother reading about something that seems to offend you?


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## TraciJo67

Vickie, you can speak for me on this issue anytime  I can't add anything about WLS & the appropriateness of discussing it here -- you expressed it all, and eloquently as usual. 

Pani, I see that you are relatively new here (unless you've recently changed your user name). You may not be aware yet that there are some people who seem to frequent this forum just to stir up contention & ill feelings. If you aren't aware of the history, I can understand that some of our posts may seem a bit harsh to you. 

Nothing else to add, just welcome to Dim, Pani -- or, if you're a long-term lurker, welcome to posting at Dim!


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## crazygrad

-As a researcher interested in this issue

What sort of research do you do?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't say that the board in general is dominated by people who've had WLS. I think more of us post on the WLS section but I really haven't noticed at all that DIm is flooded with us nor that anyone walks on eggshells in expressing their dislike for WLS.

If you're wondering why I post on a SA site since I've had WLS surgery, there are several reasons.

I've lost weight but I'm by no means small. I know some might think that I am at size 18, but in most circles I'm still large. An acquaintance even siad he thought I was repulsively fat. So if you are suggesting I don't fit here, where do I fit?

I'm not a WLS cheerleader- most of aren't. I don't like alot of WLS sites. THey tell people how to fudge things so they can approved for surgery- even if they don't meet criteria. Or how to get coverage for plastic surgery when theyu shouldn't. Frankly, I find these practices distasteful. I've yet to encourage or recommend surgery to anyone, here or anywhere else. I am honest about the smooth recovery I've had but I am also upfront about the fact that is NOT for everyone- and many WLS sites are gung ho and see it as great for everyone. It made sense for me. It doesn't for everyone.

Just because I've lost weight doesn't mean I don't agree with the principles behind size acceptance and believe that people deserve equal treatment, equal protection, equal access, equal opportunities, respect and human kindness. In fact, I came to understand this better after I lost weight and saw how people treated me differently. I began to think more about the subtle ways I experienced size discrimination and think more about it. I always knew, of course, but frankly, didn't think about it or perhaps didn't think about its extent. My weight does not, nor did it ever, determine my self worth. It doesn't for anyone. I was a happy intelligent person before surgery and still am. Now, I can walk around without terrible pain. I can stand to teach for an hour. I couldn't do those things before. So I made a choice for my health and mobility. It isn't the choice for everyone and thats okay. 

ALL movements need the participation of people that are not in the group in order to succeed. If SA wants to acheive goals of access, accomodation and so on small people have to be on board. the Black freedom movement would not have accomplished what it did without whites on board. Women would not have accomplished what they did without men. Hell, children rely on adults to protect their interests and often no voice and recourse of their own. Having WLS was something I did for my own reasons, not to make a statement about fat people and their value and worth and the type of access and treatment they, well WE, deserve.


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## Tina

pani said:


> "For those who hate WLS for all of your good reasons, that's cool but why give the folks who have had it and are dealing with it such a hard time? I don't know, it just seems so silly."
> 
> I am not trying to flame anyone. It seems to me though that it is just the opposite and the people who have had WLS almost dominate this board. There are so few places for SA advocates, but even here a person has to walk on eggshells and be careful what they say about weight loss. I only pop in once in awhile, but every random thread I visit, the tone is more like a Weight Watchers meeting than a fat acceptance site. Again, I am not trying to flame anyone. As an activist I really don't feel comfortable here because I can see myself saying something like "rapid weight loss CAN age a person"in total innocence with no malice intended what so ever. To me it is just making an observation.



Yes, there are a number of people who have had WLS on this board -- it is the WLS board...

Try the other boards on this site if you don't want to see this kind of talk. It's pretty easy to ignore this one little board when there are others that focus on issues having nothing to do with WLS or the situations that might drive a person to consider it.


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## Aliena

Vickie and Traci, you both are so the bomb!!! I am very priviledged to be in your circle of rep!!  

CrazyGrad, two-thumbs up for a well put post!


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## Miss Vickie

Aliena said:


> Vickie and Traci, you both are so the bomb!!! I am very priviledged to be in your circle of rep!!
> 
> CrazyGrad, two-thumbs up for a well put post!



It's mutual, babycakes. :wubu: 

And yeah, Crazgrad's pretty cool too, isn't she? She brought up several points that had slipped my mind (besides, my post was already too long!) I appreciate her input, as well as yours, Traci's and Tina's, to this thread.

And while yes, some of the posts were a bit harsh, that had more to do with the personalities involved and Anita's long history of mean spirited comments against women than WLS itself.


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## TraciJo67

Aliena said:


> Vickie and Traci, you both are so the bomb!!! I am very priviledged to be in your circle of rep!!
> 
> CrazyGrad, two-thumbs up for a well put post!



Right back atcha, honey :wubu:


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## mossystate

Yup..I see very little 'groaning' about being fat, here on the Dims boards.I think that some wish this were some sort of fat nirvana, where seldom is heard, a discouraging word(you now have that song in your head..heh).But like real life, this place is filled with actual human beings, and I am SO thankful that fat people have a place where they can voice concerns, and it is ok, because we know where they are coming from.I never EVER want to see Dims be JUST a place for escape..too many people in need of actual help would get lost in the pixie dust.


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## exile in thighville

i don't care what she does to her own body but i cringed my ass off after watching the first episode this season, where she acts like her has-been self is this role model for fatties everywhere and the fate of the universe depends on her setting a good example for her fans. yawn. i geuninely feel bad that wls didn't work for her apparently, but there's far worse things over the hill rock stars could a) do to their bodies* and b) do on tv**.

*see breaking bonaduce
**see the surreal life


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## Miss Vickie

I agree, Dan. She hardly represents me, either as a fat woman or a WLS patient. She's a has been celebrity of marginal talent who's doing anything she can to hold onto her celebrity status. (le yawn)


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## crazygrad

Aw, you guys are so sweet.

Anyway, I like CFC. So much drama! I have to admit, I never Carnie or Wilson Philips, but I did think they could sing. Just not my kind of music.

Do I think Carnie's a role model? No, but noone on that show is at least to me. (Though Ted Lange clomes pretty close. He's pretty fit for an older guy nand has a good attitude about doing all the tasks that they are given.) And frankly, I'm not sure they are supposed to be role models. Between all the bitching and complaining, and anger management problems- who really wants to be like these folks? For me, I think its why I like this show (and don't like Boggest Loser)- here's all these whiny "celebs" being held to task and told to be responsible when I'd guess some of them haven't been asked to do so in years. 

Frankly, I can't imagine being on such a show igniting anyone's career. If I were a Hollywood casting aga=ent type, I could not imagine hiring anyone who's been on reality tv- this or any other show. Yikes- can you picture Chris Knight getting work on a show after that marriage show with that model??!!


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## FAdude01

What makes me angry is that she had the surgury, then went on playboy. First of all, she was far more attractive when she was big. Second of all what kind of message are you sending to other girls with that? You can have the surgery then be in playboy?? If anything the unhealthy thing is worrying about your weight and your image all the time. Maybe if she had just accepted her size, and had some self esteem she wouldn't be in the place she is now. Plus I thought she was really hot back then. :smitten:


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## mossystate

*sigh*

Ok, whether or not you approve of wls, I doubt Wilson did it JUST because she wanted to fit into a size 10, or whatever.So if Playboy featured fat women, you would be ALL for young girls aspiring to be in its pages...oy.I personally think Wilson is obnoxious, wls or not, but her life is not yours.


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