# .....As long as you're healthy.



## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

I was having a conversation on the phone with a new friend. We were discussing another fried of hers who just had the Lapband surgery. 
She said to me, "she had it cause her doctor told her she would be crippled in about 5 years if she didn't do something." 

I thought that was interesting. 

She then contined, "I think everyone should be whatever size they are comfortable being, as long as they are healthy." 

I then said to her,"I have several health issues like HBP, diabetes and sleep apnea, Are you telling me I should have WLS because I am not considered healthy?" 

She went quiet for a moment, then said, "No, I'm not tellng you what to do."

I just said, "OK", and left it at that, we went on to cat about other things for a few hours. I could have pushed the issue, but I decided just saying what I did might give her something to think about.

See, this statement, "....as long as your healthy, is a pet peeve of mine. Well, no, I actually hate that statement. Oh yeah of course, I know it's not meant to be an insult, but as a fat woman who will more than likely always be fat,* it is* an insult. I don't go around telling skinny people "Oh yeah I think you should be as skinny as you want, as long as you're healthy."

"As long as your healthy" is a veiled way of telling a fat person, "you need to lose weight." Make no mistake about that. Is it a compliment? No. It is a statement of fact? Not unless you know for sure that the person you are talking to is healthy. Is it a statement of acceptance? Not by a long shot. It is a statement of condemnation of fat people who are fat AND (dare I say it??) unhealthy!! Oh yes I did say that. Believe it or not - not all fat people are healthy! But guess what? Skinny people can be unhealthy too! *gasp* Yes, it's true!

For me the older I get the less patience I have for stupid statements. And believe me this is on the top of my list. So, as an unhealthy (not my definition - other's) fat woman, the question has now become - "Why doesn't she lose weight - her health is suffering?" That is like asking me "Why don't you grow blonde hair, the dark hair makes you look old?" And it also deminishes me as a person to assume I could lose weight and get better, but I don't. If a thin person has HBP - well they can't help it their thin they take care of themselves, it must be genetic. If a fat person has HBP, well they should just lose weight and it will go away, he/she is just lazy. Really? Hmmmmm, I never knew it was that simple.

How many of you have ever been ashamed of having some health issue you may have? I have. I have had HBP since I was 17. I have been on medication since I was 17. I never told anyone, I was ashamed of being fat and not being in perfect health. Which we all know you have to be as a fat person in order not to be pestered all the time about losing weight. So last year - I had my gall bladder out - was diagnosed with, Sleep apnea, diabetes and Hypothyroidism. BAD FAT GIRL! So now while I do not hide my medications or evade questions - I also do not offer up this info readily. It's no ones damn business. 

I have been thinking about my weight a lot lately. Just going over in my head what I want. Do I want to go on yet one more diet? Do I want to change my eating habits to eat healthier? Am I sure I don't want WLS? All this crap has been running through my head. My realization has been this. There are many, many reasons that have contributed to my weight. Not wanting to be thin - is NOT one of those things. I have wanted to be thin all my life - now at 47 I realized a few things. I'm fat! It is such an integral part of who I am that I would have no idea who I would be if I wasn't fat. I'm pretty sure my fat has shaped who I am - and I like who I am. I don't want to be thin anymore. I just want to be me. And on a spiritual note - I believe in Karma and Reincarnation. What if - this is part of the deal I made for this lifetime? And what if I am exactly who I was made to be? That kinda puts being fat in a different light. I am perfection, right now in this moment.

So you know what I decided? The next time I hear someone say "As long as your healthy." I'm going to correct them with this:

"I think everyone should be whatever size they are. Because we are all perfect just as we are." 

I'm gonna just be happy.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 22, 2008)

If you are happy with yourself, happy with your life, and have no desire to change it ... good on you. Nobody should ever attempt to force you to lose weight. 

People who are happy, neutral, or unhappy about their weight, and have co-morbidities that their doctors feel are related to excess weight may have a different opinion (or may get to that point if health issues worsen). Discussions with healthcare professionals may or may not involve the topic of weight loss and how best to achieve that goal. Some may choose WLS. Others may not. Their issues, their choices.

It's simple, really: Your friend has no business offering you unsolicited advise (though it appears from what you've written that you brought the subject up initially), and if she's giving you said advise, she deserves any snappy comeback you may direct her way. Second, since you're so clearly opposed to WLS, don't ever have it. Problem solved.



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I was having a conversation on the phone with a new friend. We were discussing another fried of hers who just had the Lapband surgery.
> She said to me, "she had it cause her doctor told her she would be crippled in about 5 years if she didn't do something."
> 
> I thought that was interesting.
> ...


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I was having a conversation on the phone with a new friend. We were discussing another fried of hers who just had the Lapband surgery.
> She said to me, "she had it cause her doctor told her she would be crippled in about 5 years if she didn't do something."
> 
> I thought that was interesting.
> ...



OMGOMGOMGHWTFMTH!!! Watch out or you're going to ge5t the diabeetese disease! Oooooooooo? you better run! RUN! RUN and lose the weight. If you get diabetes don't say I didnt wqarn you. Awwwww shoot. You got diabetes. i'm so disappointed in you. You should have listened and dis something while you had the chance. 

I want to vomit my brains into my own lap just thinkining about all this ill guilt reserved only for fat people. Everybody else is living with the disease but you? You're killing yourself.

Great rant Sandie. :bow:


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 22, 2008)

> That is like asking me "Why don't you grow blonde hair, the dark hair makes you look old?"



Ok, truth be told, most beauty/fashion mags suggest women go a shade or two lighter as they get older.

So let's say you tell me dark hair makes me look older. This is a true statement. And suppose I say I don't care, i've always had brown hair and will keep having it. You point out I'm going to face age discrimination because i look older, and furthermore, lightening my hair is a very easy thing to do so why not maximize my looks? Ok, but I keep my hair dark anyway and am willing to deal with whatever downside there is. Even if it means losing out on social and work opportunities.

As Traci said, if you're fine with everything how it is, good for you. And I totally agree that given your rabid opposition to WLS, you should not have it. You have every right to do what you want and that includes having or not having surgery and whatever else you want to do.

But some people make different choices, some people's *doctors* recommend different choices. Not because they are bigoted or because they are shills for Jenny Craig, but because they have patients with health issues that they (with their medical training) believe could be solved with weight loss. 

Personally, I have a health condition (bursitis) which would make too much weight gain very painful and yes, probably crippling. My hip joints simply are not going to tolerate carrying more pounds, they can't do it. I have flare ups now that feel like I have acid in my joints. I can't lie on my side when it flares up because the inflammation feels as if i'm lying on a tennis ball. If I gained 200 pounds I would absolutely realize that it's going to concern people who know about my joint problems. I'm not going to question them or tell them to fuck off, and if a doctor tells me "Guess what? You need to do something about your weight because your joints are not healthy enough to support you." I'm sure as heck going to listen and not decided it's an attack on size acceptance.


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## Shosh (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi Sandie,

I am going to say that one can accept themselves as a fat person and be happy and comfortable and at peace with that. I will say however that I also believe that it is ok to be concerned with being as healthy as you can in that fat body. 
I have had lap band surgery as you know. I had to. Is it a panacea to all of life's ills? No. I am now noticing a slow progression in my MS, especially in the last six months I have started to get worse with this illness. Yes I would have struggled more had I still been 300 pounds.
Having said that nobody should tell you what you should regarding your body and health.
It is annoying I know that skinny people can have any bad habit or condition under the sun and that is ok because they are skinny.

Anyway. Sandie I wish you lots of happiness in your life. I am glad that you have come to a place in your life where you are happy and at peace with yourself.

Shoshie


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

You know after I posted this - I kinda had this thought that some people here might be offended by my thoughts. I see I was right. 

But in all honesty - I don't care.

Nowhere did I condemn other's choices. I was relating my frustration at this particular issue. If somehow that struck a chord, there aint a thing I can or want to do about that.

If you made a decision to have WLS - stand in the truth or your decision. You made it. Just like I made mine.

Shoshie - I love you and I in no way think you were being snarky. OK? :wubu:


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie, why do you assume that anyone was offended? Offended by what? Your determination to live a life that is meaningful to you? The indignation that you felt at someone assuming she knew more about your health than you do? 

I wasn't offended by anything that you wrote. I'm not sure where you're seeing otherwise.


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## Shosh (Apr 22, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Sandie, why do you assume that anyone was offended? Offended by what? Your determination to live a life that is meaningful to you? The indignation that you felt at someone assuming she knew more about your health than you do?
> 
> I wasn't offended by anything that you wrote. I'm not sure where you're seeing otherwise.



Yes I also was not offended by anything written. We are just sharing our thoughts here, which is a good thing.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 22, 2008)

I dont know, I dont really see anything wrong with an "As long as you're healthy" statement. 

It can apply to thin people just as well as fat. People can be too thin which cause them to have health issues just like some people who are carrying too much weight for their body have health issues. 

I just kinda take it as an I care about you kinda thing. Yup you're fat/thin but as long as you're healthy I'm not going to worry about you.


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## Waxwing (Apr 22, 2008)

Ella Bella said:


> I dont know, I dont really see anything wrong with an "As long as you're healthy" statement.
> 
> It can apply to thin people just as well as fat. People can be too thin which cause them to have health issues just like some people who are carrying too much weight for their body have health issues.
> 
> I just kinda take it as an I care about you kinda thing. Yup you're fat/thin but as long as you're healthy I'm not going to worry about you.



I agree, and was trying to think of a way to post that without it seeming as though I'm negating Sandie's experience. 

I think that wanting a loved one to be healthy is wholly understandable. Because we live in a world in which we're told constantly that fat=deathbed, even a loving comment can seem filled with all sorts of judgment, but it may not be so.

My mom has a really bad back. Surgery left her with nothing but nerve damage and a huge scar. Drugs aren't worth it. And really there's nothing she can do about it. I find myself saying to her, "is your back ok?" or, "well as long as you feel good", and in no way am I admonishing her to change something over which she's powerless. I just love her, and I want her to be well, and to feel good. 

Sometimes all that statement means is "I love you and want you to live forever", and we don't think about what negative connotations it might bring up. I'll be more conscious of it from now on.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 22, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> I agree, and was trying to think of a way to post that without it seeming as though I'm negating Sandie's experience.
> 
> I think that wanting a loved one to be healthy is wholly understandable. Because we live in a world in which we're told constantly that fat=deathbed, even a loving comment can seem filled with all sorts of judgment, but it may not be so.
> 
> ...



What a lovely post, Waxwing. You're right -- sometimes it is just coming from a place of concern and love. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and figure maybe they're operating from a place of ignorance, which in no way minimizes their concern. This is where we have a chance to educate people, and share with them our feelings about health and our bodies. 

Just as I think it's "okay" to be fat and unhealthy, I think it's "okay" to decide to lose weight for other reasons besides health. I happened to have WLS because I had health problems that were created/made worse by my weight, but some people decide to have WLS "just" because they want to look better to themselves. Should we judge them for that? Should we say they don't have a "good enough reason" to want to shed weight? To me that's as judgmental as saying it's okay to be fat "as long as you're healthy". I think there's just way too much lotta judging going on, for my comfort. People judging others for having WLS -- lots of that. Other people judging others for not -- lots of that, too. None of it is productive, in my opinion.

I just want people to be happy and live the life they want to live. Would I prefer they be healthy? Oh hell yeah -- who wouldn't want to be healthy? Watching what my brothers are going through with diabetes (a serious condition not to be made light of), of course I wish things were different for them. One is in the hospital, still near death, with tubes in and out of every orifice and the other has had open heart surgery, is in tremendous pain, and is losing his eyesight after losing much of his mobility and independence. Both are disabled at WAY too young of an age. I don't think it's insensitive or wrong for me to wish them a long and healthy life, and nor is it being traitorous to size acceptance to say that their weight has contributed to their disease. It's just a fact of life, and I can at least say with some pride that at least my eldest brother is taking full responsibility for his health and is doing what he can (as he has for a very long time) to be as healthy as possible.

There's this crazy expression, "As long as you've got your health..." Yeah, it's trite, but I think there's some truth to it. Life's just much easier when you're not sick, and I say this as someone who has suffered from a chronic illness for eight years.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

I disagree completely. 

As a fat woman who has heard this all my life it's about as distasteful as, "I love you and I want you to know I am concerned about your health. Please lose weight."

And that's pretty distasteful. 





Waxwing said:


> I agree, and was trying to think of a way to post that without it seeming as though I'm negating Sandie's experience.
> 
> I think that wanting a loved one to be healthy is wholly understandable. Because we live in a world in which we're told constantly that fat=deathbed, even a loving comment can seem filled with all sorts of judgment, but it may not be so.
> 
> ...


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## Waxwing (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I disagree completely.
> 
> As a fat woman who has heard this all my life it's about as distasteful as, "I love you and I want you to know I am concerned about your health. Please lose weight."
> 
> And that's pretty distasteful.



What I said is distasteful? I don't understand. 

I definitely see how you could be sick and tired of hearing it. So how would you want someone to express that they want you to be well without it seeming offensive and judgmental? It's there a better way to say it? Does it ever depend on *who's* saying it?

Edit: To clarify, I do NOT mean is there a better way to tell someone to lose weight. Not at all. Just is there a better, less offensive way to tell someone you want them to be well and feel good.


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## Surlysomething (Apr 22, 2008)

I could give a shit what anyone thinks of me for the most part.


But I do care what my Dr has to say because I KNOW that she want's me to be happy and healthy. I got THE DIABETES too and knew so little about it when I was diagnosed that i'm angry that I didn't know how at risk I was.

The only person that has any bearing on my attitudes and actions with my health are me and my Dr and she's a great physician that also struggles with weight so I don't have that pressure of "bad fat girl" all the time. She just wants the side effects to be gone. Ie: boils, depression, yeast infections.

I'm mad that i'm a statistic that's for sure, but other people's opinion? They can go fuck their hat.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

No no - not you. The statement "As long as your healthy" is distasteful.

How about if you don't say it at all? When I see people (friends) I don't automatically ask them "How's your health?" I ask other things. I figure if there is something they want to tell me - they will.

But, now when it comes to me? I am constantly asked: "How you doin? You feeling OK? Is everything healthwise, OK?" 

What the hell???

It's nobody's business. I'm sick to death of people thinking because I'm fat they can pry into my health. Are they concerned about my health? No. I have come to the conclusion they want to be right. They want to go home and call somebody and say, "Oh poor Sandie- she's got -----. I told you her weight would get to her." That's what people want.

Do you tell smokers, - "Well, I think as long as you're healthy, you can keep smoking."

In case it matters - my problems, HBP - Diabetes - Sleep Apnea and PCOS are all related and are all in my family's genes. Does that make it OK for me to have them now? 

Look at that I felt the need to explain my health. LOL





Waxwing said:


> What I said is distasteful? I don't understand.
> 
> I definitely see how you could be sick and tired of hearing it. So how would you want someone to express that they want you to be well without it seeming offensive and judgmental? It's there a better way to say it? Does it ever depend on *who's* saying it?


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## Waxwing (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> It's nobody's business. I'm sick to death of people thinking because I'm fat they can pry into my health. Are they concerned about my health? No. I have come to the conclusion they want to be right. They want to go home and call somebody and say, "Oh poor Sandie- she's got -----. I told you her weight would get to her." That's what people want.



Oh ok. That makes a lot more sense to me. As though "fat" is seen as an automatic health issue that leaves the door open for people to pry into everything else.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I disagree completely.
> 
> As a fat woman who has heard this all my life it's about as distasteful as, "I love you and I want you to know I am concerned about your health. Please lose weight."
> 
> And that's pretty distasteful.



I fail to see what is distasteful about worrying about somebody's well being. 

My grandfather smoked like a chimney. I used to beg him to stop and tossed his cigarettes in the trash. At the end of his life when he was fucking *dying* and on oxygen 24/7 it pissed me off to no end that he'd kept smoking. Was it his choice? Yes. Could I have really done anything to make him stop? No. But was it sad and awful for his wife and children and grandchildren to watch? You better believe it was.

And no, I never would have told him to keep smoking so long as he was healthy because smoking makes you unhealthy. And if his rationale for continuing to smoke was that non smokers get lung cancer and emphysema too, it would have pissed me off that he was intentionally missing the point and not caring about what he was doing to the people that cared about him.

Do you think I got *any pleasure at all* out of being right? No way.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 22, 2008)

Towards the end of his life, my father managed to tear a fairly large hole in his esophagus. In addition to that, he had end-stage heart failure. His body literally could not handle a few ounces too many of any given type of food or water. In the last year of his life, he'd go into terrible, gut-wrenching episodes of heart failure. He couldn't breathe, would get this horrific look of panic on his face, and the level of oxygen allowed for personal use at home wasn't enough to get his ox stats up. He had to be brought, by ambulance, and at considerable cost to the tax-payers, to the hospital ... at least twice a month. This was directly because he was not following his physicians orders regarding an extremely strict intake of calories, type of calories (low sodium and low sugar -- he was also a brittle diabetic), type of liquids. He'd drink water straight from the tap, it would leak through the hole in his esophagus, he'd get pneumonia. Back to the hospital he'd go for another 3 week stay on Medicare/Medicaid's dime. He simply refused to follow doctor's orders. He was 83 when he died. Here's what pisses me off about it, though: He had one crisis after the other. I lived through 2+ years of never knowing when his latest episode would be his last. Two years of cancelling plans last minute to rush and be by his side because his doctors said this was it. Two years of watching my mother turn into a haggard, exhausted, grief-stricken shell of her former self (she provided care for him 24/7 and even stayed in the hospital with him, sleeping in a chair by his bedside, because he was afraid to be alone). Two years of begging my father to please, please, PLEASE stop eating whatever he wanted, stop drinking unthickened liquid. Two years of watching him struggle to hitch a breath, watching how each episode drew just a bit more out of him until he was bedridden for the last 6 months of his life, and unable to move even to go to the bathroom. Months of visiting, waking up in the middle of the night and hearing my mother's exhausted voice patiently saying, "Guy, breathe ... breathe through your nose, it's OK, you can do it ... calm down, don't fight it." 

So yeah, I have to say, I was invested in my father's health. So was the rest of my family. So were all of you, the tax-payers. I loved him, and I didn't want him to suffer. And I didn't want *myself* or my *mother* or the rest of my family to suffer. And his refusal to follow his doctor's orders? Selfish. Damn, damn, bloody selfish.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

Did he ask you to beg him to stop and throw his cigarettes out?

This is about personal choice and allowing people to walk their own path - no matter what it is.

I had an Uncle who died from brain cancer, after having lung cancer. I remember him the way I loved him. He never stopped smoking either. It was HIS CHOICE - not mine - how he lived his life and how he died.






LoveBHMS said:


> I fail to see what is distasteful about worrying about somebody's well being.
> 
> My grandfather smoked like a chimney. I used to beg him to stop and tossed his cigarettes in the trash. At the end of his life when he was fucking *dying* and on oxygen 24/7 it pissed me off to no end that he'd kept smoking. Was it his choice? Yes. Could I have really done anything to make him stop? No. But was it sad and awful for his wife and children and grandchildren to watch? You better believe it was.
> 
> ...


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 22, 2008)

What pisses me off about all this is the assumption of ill health. I've told this story before but I have brothers and sisters who smoke, drink, use recreationsal drugs, one can't hold a job but guess whose health everybody is worrying over? Yes yes, I know, isn't that sweet of them but that's not the point. They've all got high blood pressure, some have diabetes, my brother has a heart condition, my younger sister has one too. The difference is they are all thin or average size. I spent my whole life listening to people nag and fear monger about all these horrible diseases that would happen that drove me to nearly kill myself trying to be thin, and I mean that litterally. After all this time knowing this you would think the people around me would cut me some stinkin' slack. What, do they think I don't care? Nobody, I mean NOBODY, ever approaches my brothers or sisters and inquires or nags them about their health. Their smoking and whatever else they're doing is their business but my weight is EVERYBODY'S business and no matter what I'm doing it's just not good enough. And even with all that I am doing I will probably get diabetes anyway since it's hereditary. When that happens everyone will 'care' enough to show me their 'I told you so' faces that my brothers and sister never have to see. I'm sorry but if people really cared they would shut their GD mouths and support me in what is working. It's like I'm surrounded by zombies. I'm sorry your family members gave up on themselves but I'm sick and tired of being lectured by my family who assumes I spend my days rolling naked in chocolate pudding every time they see me and I have every right to be angry.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

Thank you - thank you - thank you Lilly!! :bow:





LillyBBBW said:


> What pisses me off about all this is the assumption of ill health. I've told this story before but I have brothers and sisters who smoke, drink, use recreationsal drugs, one can't hold a job but guess whose health everybody is worrying over? Yes yes, I know, isn't that sweet of them but that's not the point. They've all got high blood pressure, some have diabetes, my brother has a heart condition, my younger sister has one too. The difference is they are all thin or average size. I spent my whole life listening to people nag and fear monger about all these horrible diseases that would happen that drove me to nearly kill myself trying to be thin, and I mean that litterally. After all this time knowing this you would think the people around me would cut me some stinkin' slack. What, do they think I don't care? Nobody, I mean NOBODY, ever approaches my brothers or sisters and inquires or nags them about their health. Their smoking and whatever else they're doing is their business but my weight is EVERYBODY'S business and no matter what I'm doing it's just not good enough. And even with all that I am doing I will probably get diabetes anyway since it's hereditary. When that happens everyone will 'care' enough to show me their 'I told you so' faces that my brothers and sister never have to see. I'm sorry but if people really cared they would shut their GD mouths and support me in what is working. It's like I'm surrounded by zombies. I'm sorry your family members gave up on themselves but I'm sick and tired of being lectured by my family who assumes I spend my days rolling naked in chocolate pudding every time they see me and I have every right to be angry.


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## Waxwing (Apr 22, 2008)

I feel like we're getting a little off track with the smoking talk.

My point was that the person is not necessarily saying 'change your behavior'. The original comment was "as long as you're healthy". This does not innately mean "change who you are" or "you're fucking up". 

It is not a judgment to wish health and happiness on someone you love. It just isn't. If you want to make health talk off-limits, that's fine but it is NORMAL to want someone to feel well. If commenting on that evokes negative emotions in someone, then you have to address that. But sometimes wishing someone well is just that. It's unfair to assume that it's always hiding judgment.


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## ashmamma84 (Apr 22, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> What a lovely post, Waxwing. You're right -- sometimes it is just coming from a place of concern and love. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and figure maybe they're operating from a place of ignorance, which in no way minimizes their concern. This is where we have a chance to educate people, and share with them our feelings about health and our bodies.
> 
> Just as I think it's "okay" to be fat and unhealthy, I think it's "okay" to decide to lose weight for other reasons besides health. I happened to have WLS because I had health problems that were created/made worse by my weight, but some people decide to have WLS "just" because they want to look better to themselves. Should we judge them for that? Should we say they don't have a "good enough reason" to want to shed weight? To me that's as judgmental as saying it's okay to be fat "as long as you're healthy". I think there's just way too much lotta judging going on, for my comfort. People judging others for having WLS -- lots of that. Other people judging others for not -- lots of that, too. None of it is productive, in my opinion.
> 
> ...



I couldn't rep you (yet), but great post!

I know there have been times when I have written a loved one off because I felt like she was nagging or just trying to pry into my personal life...but in the end when I thought about things, it was my own insecurity, sensitivity and a wall that I put up about my fat. I do think she had the best intentions and because she loves me I think it's only natural to try to "help" or to want me to be healthy and living my best life. And maybe that could be said of alot of people's support systems -- who wants to see a loved one deal with complications, illness, etc. It doesn't just affect the fat chick (in my case), it affects all those around me...


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## Waxwing (Apr 22, 2008)

ashmamma84 said:


> I couldn't rep you (yet), but great post!
> 
> I know there have been times when I have written a loved one off because I felt like she was nagging or just trying to pry into my personal life...but in the end when I thought about things, it was my own insecurity, sensitivity and a wall that I put up about my fat. I do think she had the best intentions and because she loves me I think it's only natural to try to "help" or to want me to be healthy and living my best life. And maybe that could be said of alot of people's support systems -- who wants to see a loved one deal with complications, illness, etc. It doesn't just affect the fat chick (in my case), it affects all those around me...



THANK YOU.

It isn't always a tacit suggestion that you're somehow at fault.


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## LalaCity (Apr 22, 2008)

I really don't think there is anything wrong with your friend's sentiments -- she seems more pro-size acceptance than not, actually. I think she believes that people should feel happy and comfortable being the size they are, unless it becomes detrimental to health. Then it makes sense to address the issue. 

I am certainly not suggesting that it's correct for people to automatically equate being a larger size with ill health, but I think we run the risk of scaring well-intentioned people away from supporting size acceptance by politicizing everything to the point that we can't have a sensible conversation on the issue of size and how it _might _relate to health.


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## BigCutieSasha (Apr 22, 2008)

One thing I have brought to conversations when the comment of "as long as your healthy" is thrown in there is well, there is mental health and physical health as well. I've had this talk a few times in the past week of being home. I might not be in the optimal health range that my mom and other family and friends see weight wise, but I can assure them I mentally more healthy than most people I know. I don't get down on myself for not losing weight or for eating that doughnut when isles of magazines tell me to ditch the doughnut and eat an bran muffin. (bleh) I also dont starve myself with crazy diets like so many of them still do.
While the comment can be and is a bit patronizing there is hardly ever anything we can do about it. It's only their opinion on the subject, because they are basing their judgement/comment on what they think and know is right for them. And we all know opinions are like assholes. Everyones got them.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

Well Waxy - I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.  Coming from my POV it is a judgement. As a fat woman it is offensive. It just is. 





Waxwing said:


> I feel like we're getting a little off track with the smoking talk.
> 
> My point was that the person is not necessarily saying 'change your behavior'. The original comment was "as long as you're healthy". This does not innately mean "change who you are" or "you're fucking up".
> 
> It is not a judgment to wish health and happiness on someone you love. It just isn't. If you want to make health talk off-limits, that's fine but it is NORMAL to want someone to feel well. If commenting on that evokes negative emotions in someone, then you have to address that. But sometimes wishing someone well is just that. It's unfair to assume that it's always hiding judgment.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 22, 2008)

I am afraid that we as fat women, too often believe that something is being said to us or done to us because we are fat. A comment about our health can't be about someone loving and caring about us, it has to be said because we're fat. Didn't get the job? Has to be because we are fat, not because there might have been someone more qualified. 

There are people out there who do cruel things to fat people, simply because they are fat. But we can't just assume that about everyone. If we are going to stop being victimized we've gotta stop playing the victim.


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## Waxwing (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Well Waxy - I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.  Coming from my POV it is a judgement. As a fat woman it is offensive. It just is.



I hear you, and can understand that. What's awful is that we have expended SO much social energy making fat people feel as though there's something "wrong", it's tainted what should be a real and genuine comment of love.

Thanks, society, for making people feel like crap about themselves.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

Now hold on, just a minute. I'm nobody's victim. And I take total responsibility for my actions but, there is a big difference between someone innocently saying "As long as you're healthy" out of genuine concern and caring and someone saying, "As long as you're healthy" meaning *if you aren't healthy and you're fat - then you need to lose weight! I've been the recipient of both comments - and I can tell the difference.

I couldn't give a shit less what people think about me or my weight. BUT - I'll be damned if I am going to be condiscended and judged by people who just hate fat people.

How does this conversation go?

Them - "Hey how are you?'

Me - I'm great!"

Them - "You know my sister just had WLS. I hope it works. I don't care what size you are as long as you're healthy, you know?"

Me - "Really? So does that mean if I have say diabetes or HBP I should lose weight?"

Them - "Well, yeah. We all know those conditions can be cured by weight loss."

Me - "Really? Cause you know Wayne's mon was 95 pounds soaking wet and she had a heart condition all her life."

Them - "Well, that was something she was born with, she couldn't help that."

Me - "Oh so I can control those things?"

Them - Well, YEAH! Lose weight."
********************************

I could go on but I think you get the point.








Ella Bella said:


> I am afraid that we as fat women, too often believe that something is being said to us or done to us because we are fat. A comment about our health can't be about someone loving and caring about us, it has to be said because we're fat. Didn't get the job? Has to be because we are fat, not because there might have been someone more qualified.
> 
> There are people out there who do cruel things to fat people, simply because they are fat. But we can't just assume that about everyone. If we are going to stop being victimized we've gotta stop playing the victim.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Now hold on, just a minute. I'm nobody's victim. And I take total responsibility for my actions but, there is a big difference between someone innocently saying "As long as you're healthy" out of genuine concern and caring and someone saying, "As long as you're healthy" meaning *if you aren't healthy and you're fat - then you need to lose weight! I've been the recipient of both comments - and I can tell the difference.





Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I was having a conversation on the phone with a new friend. We were discussing another fried of hers who just had the Lapband surgery.
> She said to me, "she had it cause her doctor told her she would be crippled in about 5 years if she didn't do something."
> 
> I thought that was interesting.
> ...




So which was your friends? Why get upset?

She shared with you her experience, even said that she doesn't care about other peoples size, just be healthy right?

You didn't get defensive by listing your health issues and asking her if she thought you should get wls?


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Now hold on, just a minute. I'm nobody's victim. And I take total responsibility for my actions but, there is a big difference between someone innocently saying "As long as you're healthy" out of genuine concern and caring and someone saying, "As long as you're healthy" meaning *if you aren't healthy and you're fat - then you need to lose weight! I've been the recipient of both comments - and I can tell the difference.
> 
> I couldn't give a shit less what people think about me or my weight. BUT - I'll be damned if I am going to be condiscended and judged by people who just hate fat people.
> 
> ...



If the point is that you don't want to have WLS, don't have it.

If the point is that you don't want others to ask about your health, then politely let them know you consider personal health issues to be private. 

Note: A good way to avoid discussions about your health is not to roll out your litany of health problems and back the other person into a corner over his or her opinion.

Sorry, but I am going back to the smoking thing here. If somebody smokes and tell me it's not up for discussion, I don't mention it. However if they make a point of telling me they have emphysema or shortness of breath, I don't THEN want them to ask me if I think they should try the nicotine patch and if i say "yes" have them tell me their health is none of my business and furthermore lots of non smokers have health problems too.


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## Bloodraver (Apr 22, 2008)

Being called fat or the typical health comments I've heard throughout my life have never really phased me. No one knows your body better then you do. I'm 400+ and that hasn't really ever prevented me from living my life. I move around like a normal weight person. I climb up on things, run, and play like people half my weight. Matter of fact just the other day my truck wouldn't start and in order to fix the problem I had to reach the back of this large v8. I just climbed up and kneeled right on the radiator support. Then for kicks I crawled right under the truck and changed the oil. Sorry to turn this into a car forum but my point is there's only a real problem when your weight controls your life. I've seen and heard people easy 100-200lbs smaller then me and can barely walk or breath. There is a such thing as being "health" and large. You should know if your having true complications with your weight. You are your own doctor.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

Ella Bella said:


> So which was your friends? Why get upset?
> 
> She shared with you her experience, even said that she doesn't care about other peoples size, just be healthy right?
> 
> You didn't get defensive by listing your health issues and asking her if she thought you should get wls?



Because her point - that we discussed just a little while ago was:

"Fat people who are unhealthy should lose weight."

I said I didn't go any further because I wasn't sure what her motivation was for telling me about her friend who had WLS.

So, now I know. It's up to her to decide if she ever wants to bring this up to me again.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

OK so - friendly conversation between 2 women about WLS and health has now become me backing her into a corner with my "litany" of health problems?

This is EXACTLY why I don't bring up my health issues. Because of exaggeration like this. 

It's pretty interesting coming from someone in this community. And you know what? You made my point. I don't HAve to explain anything to anyone. PERIOD.





LoveBHMS said:


> If the point is that you don't want to have WLS, don't have it.
> 
> If the point is that you don't want others to ask about your health, then politely let them know you consider personal health issues to be private.
> 
> ...


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 22, 2008)

Here it is again. If your weight is causing your health problems lose weight. Coming from another fat person - that is very condiscending.

If this is the general attitude - now - in this community. Than maybe I really don't understand Size Acceptance - at all. Maybe only healthy fat people belong here.




Bloodraver said:


> Being called fat or the typical health comments I've heard throughout my life have never really phased me. No one knows your body better then you do. I'm 400+ and that hasn't really ever prevented me from living my life. I move around like a normal weight person. I climb up on things, run, and play like people half my weight. Matter of fact just the other day my truck wouldn't start and in order to fix the problem I had to reach the back of this large v8. I just climbed up and kneeled right on the radiator support. Then for kicks I crawled right under the truck and changed the oil. Sorry to turn this into a car forum but my point is there's only a real problem when your weight controls your life. I've seen and heard people easy 100-200lbs smaller then me and can barely walk or breath. There is a such thing as being "health" and large. You should know if your having true complications with your weight. You are your own doctor.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 22, 2008)

I believe the theme of the last NAAFA convention was 'Health at Any Size.' This concept has been brought up by a huge number of posters here including both FAs and SSBBWs.

Everyone should push for optimal health. This poster:



> Originally Posted by Bloodraver
> Being called fat or the typical health comments I've heard throughout my life have never really phased me. No one knows your body better then you do. I'm 400+ and that hasn't really ever prevented me from living my life. I move around like a normal weight person. I climb up on things, run, and play like people half my weight. Matter of fact just the other day my truck wouldn't start and in order to fix the problem I had to reach the back of this large v8. I just climbed up and kneeled right on the radiator support. Then for kicks I crawled right under the truck and changed the oil. Sorry to turn this into a car forum but my point is there's only a real problem when your weight controls your life. I've seen and heard people easy 100-200lbs smaller then me and can barely walk or breath. There is a such thing as being "health" and large. You should know if your having true complications with your weight. You are your own doctor.



merely said he does not have health issues caused by his weight, but he recognizes that some people do. You bring up a topic of concern to fat people, and then get angry when the posts are not all along the lines of "You are so right Sandie." Every person who responded to you has had different experiences and opinions. Not one person on this thread had made any suggestions towards you or anyone else, they merely related their own.

And if you do, in fact, post what your health issues are, be aware you are going to potentially open them up for discussion. Don't write about them and then say they're nobody's business or that nobody is exhibiting the proper attitude towards you. Even after you wrote what health issues you have, not one person has said anything but that you should make up your own mind about how to address them.


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## Bloodraver (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Here it is again. If your weight is causing your health problems lose weight. Coming from another fat person - that is very condiscending.
> 
> If this is the general attitude - now - in this community. Than maybe I really don't understand Size Acceptance - at all. Maybe only healthy fat people belong here.



What I was saying is don't let it control you. If you don't like something change it. You don't like the shirt you're wearing change it. You don't like the channel on tv. Change it. Whinning and caring on never gets anyone anywhere. Be whatever you want just don't let it get you down. If I couldn't do the things I loved in life then life wouldn't be worth living. If your weight controls you or makes you unhappy change it. There's not a single thing condiscending about it. FAs, gainers, and me. If you're a 1/2 ton and your happy then stay a half ton.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 22, 2008)

It's interesting the twists this thread has taken, including the smoking issue. I was actually going to use that as an example but figured it would offend. Since it's on the table, however, I'll weigh in on it.

If someone is engaging in a behavior that they KNOW is very likely to cause health problems, then they shouldn't be surprised when loved ones express concern. Now, hopefully this is done in a loving way, and not via nagging, because it's more effective and less painful. Yes, there are thin people who have hypertension and diabetes, but those conditions are also BOTH exacerbated by weight. So just because thin people (or non smokers) get a disease, doesn't mean that we shouldn't be careful if we are engaging in a behavior (over-eating and under-moving) that contribute to it. If someone is healthy and fat and happy, more power to them. I was that way too.... for a time. Lots of people can live well into their 80's fat and happy, but lots of people can't, either. 

This isn't to say that WLS is or isn't the answer (and I'm wondering since there is discussion of WLS if the WLS board wouldn't be the more appropriate place to discuss it). It's certainly NOT for a lot of people, or even most people. I begged my 600 pound brother *not* to have WLS years ago (yes, me, the WLS "cheerleader"). He had it anyway, and is now sicker than ever, not much thinner, and is still a diabetic; his complications have been epic, and all of them he brought on himself. But I think the system failed him because they failed to diagnose what was obvious to anyone who knows him -- an extremely acute eating disorder, resulting in daily binges. So clearly for him, the better option would have been to treat that, rather than address it surgically. But he didn't listen to me and after I told him, once, that I thought it was a bad idea, I shut the hell up. And after it went horribly wrong, I didn't say "I told you so". I wished him a healthy and long life -- something that is clearly not going to happen given is current (lack of) health.

I think initially expressing concern about someone's health isn't in itself hurtful, but harping on someone repeatedly IS, particularly when you're making unasked for suggestions, over and over again. I was really lucky that nobody ever really pushed me to diet or have WLS or any of those things. Not even my doctors. I did the research myself, talked to my doctors when I was ready, and went from there. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who doesn't have a cheering squad, although everyone was really supportive once I discussed it with them.




ashmamma84 said:


> I couldn't rep you (yet), but great post!
> 
> I know there have been times when I have written a loved one off because I felt like she was nagging or just trying to pry into my personal life...but in the end when I thought about things, it was my own insecurity, sensitivity and a wall that I put up about my fat. I do think she had the best intentions and because she loves me I think it's only natural to try to "help" or to want me to be healthy and living my best life. And maybe that could be said of alot of people's support systems -- who wants to see a loved one deal with complications, illness, etc. It doesn't just affect the fat chick (in my case), it affects all those around me...



You bring up an interesting, insightful point (and thanks!) I think when someone's comments get under our skin, it bears thinking about as to why that is. Sometimes it's because it resonates with something we're struggling with. Sometimes it's because we want that person's approval (this is something I'm dealing with at work right now). It may be just that we don't like that person but I try, in my more "enlightened" moments, to figure out why this particular situation is garnering SUCH a strong reaction in me. Because I figure I can learn way more about myself that way, rather than get whupped up or dismiss the person out of hand.



BigCutieSasha said:


> One thing I have brought to conversations when the comment of "as long as your healthy" is thrown in there is well, there is mental health and physical health as well. I've had this talk a few times in the past week of being home. I might not be in the optimal health range that my mom and other family and friends see weight wise, but I can assure them I mentally more healthy than most people I know. I don't get down on myself for not losing weight or for eating that doughnut when isles of magazines tell me to ditch the doughnut and eat an bran muffin. (bleh) I also dont starve myself with crazy diets like so many of them still do.
> While the comment can be and is a bit patronizing there is hardly ever anything we can do about it. It's only their opinion on the subject, because they are basing their judgement/comment on what they think and know is right for them. And we all know opinions are like assholes. Everyones got them.



You make such excellent points, and I tell you if there ever were a poster child for healthy, gorgeous fat chick, she'd be you. You seem so positive, so vibrant, so confident and sexy, beautiful and strong -- I envy you, Sasha. I also admire the hell out of you. I hope that you can forever be healthy and strong, at whatever weight you're at. 



LoveBHMS said:


> If the point is that you don't want to have WLS, don't have it.
> 
> If the point is that you don't want others to ask about your health, then politely let them know you consider personal health issues to be private.



Yeah, well, there is that. I figure that by discussing with my co-workers and friends my weight, my feelings about my weight and my subsequent WLS, I'm opening myself up for their concern. I get asked exTREMEly personal questions since my WLS. I get asked how much I lost, how much I weigh, what I can eat, if I have GI problems, what my nutritional status is like, etc. Then I get told about so and so's cousin for whom it went dreadfully wrong and get to hear, over and over again, the horror stories that everyone has of someone who had WLS. It's like what we do to pregnant women -- share our war stories. I am watched very closely for signs of weight gain, and what I can eat, or not eat, is often a topic of conversation. People are shocked to see me actually EATING because they've been told, falsely, that WLS patients "cannot eat". Um... hate to break it to ya, but I have quite a healthy appetite, and can eat most things with no problems at all.

But you know what? It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Maybe it's because I'm an over-sharer, but I really don't mind the questions, even the sexual ones; and yes, people ask me about my sex life, whether Burtimus is more attracted to me now (he's not), if I feel more sexually attractive (I do), etc. It gives me a chance to educate people about WLS, about size acceptance (because I discuss that a LOT), and to put some of the positive stories out there that don't result in someone weighing 100 pounds dripping wet. And the bottom line is that my friends, co-workers and family ask because they care about me. What's not to like about that?



> Note: A good way to avoid discussions about your health is not to roll out your litany of health problems and back the other person into a corner over his or her opinion.



Very true. I've had co-workers over the year bitch and moan about their asthma, all the while smoking like chimneys. I didn't say anything -- after the first, "Hey, did you smoking makes asthma worse? And that there are gums and patches and stuff to help you quit?" -- but eventually I just stopped listening. If someone isn't going to take even minimal steps to safeguard their health, why should I arse myself to care more than they seem to? Obviously I do care, but I have had to stop investing myself in what's going on with them because it's just too damn frustrating.

Overall, I don't think most people make the kind of comments Sandie is talking about to be mean. I truly think they're trying to help, but lots of people are ignorant about the fact that you CAN be fat and fit, that you CAN be fat and healthy, that you CAN be fat and have a great sex life, lots of lovers, etc. We educate people a lot more by engaging them in conversation, I think, then getting defensive or smacking them down.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Here it is again. If your weight is causing your health problems lose weight. Coming from another fat person - that is very condiscending.
> 
> If this is the general attitude - now - in this community. Than maybe I really don't understand Size Acceptance - at all. Maybe only healthy fat people belong here.



Don't you think that you're blowing things a little out of proportion, Sandie? The remarks you've just quoted seem pretty mild to me. Certainly not an anti-fat rant, by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't think that anyone has been condescending. Nor is anyone suggesting that YOU lose weight. You're happy with yourself, Wayne is happy with you? Peachy. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone. 

I think that everyone deserves that same consideration, including those of us who feel/felt that our weight is/was causing health problems. That's not a value judgment, and it's certainly not my intent to be pigeon-holed as a fat-phobe. I don't see anyone suggesting that there is anything inherently wrong with being fat -- whether you are healthy or unhealthy, whether your weight contributes to your overall health or not. It's your body. Your life. And you deserve respect and fair treatment from others no matter what your personal circumstances.

My remarks were more specific to the suggestion that family members shouldn't have a "right" to express concern about a loved one's health. I suffered right along with my father. So did the rest of my family. Did we not have a right to our feelings about his refusal to follow doctor's orders? My father wasn't fat, BTW. In fact, in the last few years of his life, he was rail thin. It certainly wasn't his weight that was causing his health problems. That shouldn't matter, though. What mattered to me was that it didn't seem that he cared enough about us, or himself, when he chose to ignore medical advise given to him by his plethora of doctors.


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## Chimpi (Apr 22, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Because her point - that we discussed just a little while ago was:
> 
> "Fat people who are unhealthy should lose weight."
> 
> ...



Did she actually _say_ that, or do you just think (or, in your words, "know") that's what she meant?

I find it extremely judgmental and demeaning to think you "know" what peoples intentions and motivations are for saying the things they say. Did you friend say, other than "as long as you're healthy", anything specifically about you and losing weight?

Thank you, TraciJo, for sharing your story about what had happened with your father and how you felt about it. I am sorry to hear that it caused you such pain (let alone your fathers pain). Very gracious of you, indeed, to post. (I would hand you reputation for it, but must spread it around first)  I also share your enthusiasm for Sasha and the well-executed point she made about mental health. That's a vital part of life, and we should all be as fortunate to be happy with who we are.


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## Tina (Apr 22, 2008)

I have had a whacked out computer and something is wrong with it. My connectivity has been really off and on, and I'm getting weird error messages. The compy needs some work. Because of that, I admit I haven't read most of this thread and am just jumping right in.


Sandie_Zitkus said:


> How many of you have ever been ashamed of having some health issue you may have? I have. I have had HBP since I was 17. I have been on medication since I was 17. I never told anyone, I was ashamed of being fat and not being in perfect health. Which we all know you have to be as a fat person in order not to be pestered all the time about losing weight. So last year - I had my gall bladder out - was diagnosed with, Sleep apnea, diabetes and Hypothyroidism. BAD FAT GIRL! So now while I do not hide my medications or evade questions - I also do not offer up this info readily. It's no ones damn business.


You know, I think I know what you're getting at. If the person says, "as long as you're healthy," what's left unsaid is, "if you're not healthy you need to change." It's kind of a tentative judgment. And let's face it, it's HARD to lose weight, and even harder to keep it off. Some can, some cannot. It's one thing to try to be as healthy as possible at whatever weight one is, but total health is not always possible even at lower weights. 


> So you know what I decided? The next time I hear someone say "As long as your healthy." I'm going to correct them with this:
> 
> "I think everyone should be whatever size they are. Because we are all perfect just as we are."
> 
> I'm gonna just be happy.


I think you should just be happy, and I won't tell you what to do, but personally (and let me say that I am sometimes very weak when I'm in the middle of my disordered eating manifesting itself), I want to do whatever I can, when I can, to be healthy. That whole "whatever I can, when I can" is in itself implying imperfection. And that's just what I am: imperfect. And fact is, I'm not healthy -- I have various conditions, and even if I got down to what the insurance tables say I should weigh -- maybe ESPECIALLY if I got down to what the insurance tables say I should weigh, I will still be unhealthy. It WILL be easier to get around, and I MIGHT have lessened levels of pain, but I will still continue to have at least most, if not all, of what I call The Acronyms. It's life.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 23, 2008)

Eloquent and insightful as ever, my dear. I don't think anyone needs to be "perfect". That implies that we're done and have no room for growth or learning. I think we all have a little room for improvement, but all we can ask from ourselves is to do, as you say, what we can, when we can. 

I just love that. It's so very... Tina.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 23, 2008)

Why in the world would I say I talked to her and this is what she said - if I didn't?

You know I'm getting a little tired of these accusations of things I never said or did.




Chimpi said:


> Did she actually _say_ that, or do you just think (or, in your words, "know") that's what she meant?
> 
> I find it extremely judgmental and demeaning to think you "know" what peoples intentions and motivations are for saying the things they say. Did you friend say, other than "as long as you're healthy", anything specifically about you and losing weight?
> 
> Thank you, TraciJo, for sharing your story about what had happened with your father and how you felt about it. I am sorry to hear that it caused you such pain (let alone your fathers pain). Very gracious of you, indeed, to post. (I would hand you reputation for it, but must spread it around first)  I also share your enthusiasm for Sasha and the well-executed point she made about mental health. That's a vital part of life, and we should all be as fortunate to be happy with who we are.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 23, 2008)

Thank you Tina - I knew you would get it.






Tina said:


> I have had a whacked out computer and something wrong with it. My connectivity has been really off and on, and I'm getting weird error messages. The compy needs some work. Because of that, I admit I haven't read most of this thread and am just jumping right in.
> 
> You know, I think I know what you're getting at. If the person says, "as long as you're healthy," what's left unsaid is, "if you're not healthy you need to change." It's kind of a tentative judgment. And let's face it, it's HARD to lose weight, and even harder to keep it off. Some can, some cannot. It's one thing to try to be as healthy as possible at whatever weight one is, but total health is not always possible even at lower weights.
> 
> I think you should just be happy, and I won't tell you what to do, but personally (and let me say that I am sometimes very weak when I'm in the middle of my disordered eating manifesting itself), I want to do whatever I can, when I can, to be healthy. That whole "whatever I can, when I can" is in itself implying imperfection. And that's just what I am: imperfect. And fact is, I'm not healthy -- I have various conditions, and even if I got down to what the insurance tables say I should weigh -- maybe ESPECIALLY if I got down to what the insurance tables say I should weigh, I will still be unhealthy. It WILL be easier to get around, and I MIGHT have lessened levels of pain, but I will still continue to have at least most, if not all, of what I call The Acronyms. It's life.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 23, 2008)

*IF* I had said this is what I deal with - with my health, discuss - yup I would expect to be dissected and have to be questioned. Fact is that is not what this thread was about. But it seems it has been conveniently turned into that.

BTW - nothing I have - physically - do I consider a problem nor do I consider myself unhealthy. It's just something I take extra care with. It's part of my life. Just so you know - I won't be accused of lying or looking for sympathy.






LoveBHMS said:


> And if you do, in fact, post what your health issues are, be aware you are going to potentially open them up for discussion. Don't write about them and then say they're nobody's business or that nobody is exhibiting the proper attitude towards you. Even after you wrote what health issues you have, not one person has said anything but that you should make up your own mind about how to address them.


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## Shosh (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey Sandie,
There are days when I effin hate my band, but I am glad that I had it inserted in general.

I used to hate it when people would always be at me about losing weight. Sometimes they would never let up. My sister Rebecca especially. I know in her case she just loves me and wants the best for me.

Hey Sandie, people used to be at me about my weight. Now people are at me about when am I going to get married?

There is just no pleasing some people.

Anyway. Be blessed.


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## mergirl (Apr 23, 2008)

i actually remember chatting to someone about how sexy big women were and they started telling me in a really patronising way about "health" issues surrounding being "overweight" (their words NEVER mine) .. and i kid ye not they were drinking beer and smoking a ciggarette at the time! i might have laughed at the irony were i not so anoyed and with my political defensive hat on!!
personally i think they were just pissed off cause they were chatting me up and i didnt fancy them! lmao..
they also said that people who were big couldnt possibly be happy and even if they said they were then secretly they wernt..
lucky for me (and for them) i've never bumped into them again!
xmer


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 23, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> If the point is that you don't want to have WLS, don't have it.
> 
> If the point is that you don't want others to ask about your health, then politely let them know you consider personal health issues to be private.
> 
> ...



I smoked for years and finally quit over two years ago. It was hard to do and took years of trying. On several occasions I had concerned people reminding me of how awful and dangerous smoking is and quick with the tsk tsk when they caught me at a weak moment in the back of the building lighting up. "REALLY OMG I NEVER EVEN THOUGH OF THE NICOTINE PATCH THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! " Can I just tell you how ANTI-helpful these people were? If there was anything that made it harder I would put that at number 2 on the list. I don't give a shit about their concerns, they're not the ones who have to do this. I'm the one who's dealing with the mood swings and lack of concentration, not them. Yes it's selfish but I happen to be of the belief that there are certain areas of one's personal life and struggles that s/he has every right to be selfish about.



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> <snipped>......BTW - nothing I have - physically - do I consider a problem nor do I consider myself unhealthy. It's just something I take extra care with. It's part of my life. Just so you know - I won't be accused of lying or looking for sympathy.



As it should be Sandie. You can only do the best you can do and the rest is what it is.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 23, 2008)

> Sorry, but I am going back to the smoking thing here. If somebody smokes and tell me it's not up for discussion, I don't mention it. However if they make a point of telling me they have emphysema or shortness of breath, *I don't THEN want them to ask me if I think they should try the nicotine patch and if i say "yes" have them tell me their health is none of my business and furthermore lots of non smokers have health problems too*.



I bolded the part of my post to which I was referring in that analogy. I did not say it's ok to offer advice to those who did not wish to hear it. In my scenario, the other person brought it up. I'm not talking about suggesting the nicotine patch to a smoker, i'm talking about feeling ok about answering if a smoker ask me if i think s/he should try it.



> BTW - nothing I have - physically - do I consider a problem nor do I consider myself unhealthy. It's just something I take extra care with. It's part of my life. Just so you know - I won't be accused of lying or looking for sympathy.



Not one post on here says you're lying or looking for sympathy.


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 23, 2008)

Susannah said:


> Hey Sandie,
> There are days when I effin hate my band, but I am glad that I had it inserted in general.
> 
> I used to hate it when people would always be at me about losing weight. Sometimes they would never let up. My sister Rebecca especially. I know in her case she just loves me and wants the best for me.
> ...



When I was trying to quit smoking I was so afraid that I wouldn't be able to before it was too late. I feared one day I would wake up with cancer, emphysema or some other disease from smoking. Knowing this it didn't change my circumstances or make quitting any easier. I was blessed in that I didn't get cancer or anything (knock on wood) but the possibility was very real. Had I gotten it I think my family would have been very resentful towards me which would have made the pain of having it all the more worse. I know people want what's best but it doesn't do much to improve things. Now that I've quit smoking they're all on to a new thing. I'm trying to find a way of using this experience to change my approach towards people.


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 23, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I bolded the part of my post to which I was referring in that analogy. I did not say it's ok to offer advice to those who did not wish to hear it. In my scenario, the other person brought it up. I'm not talking about suggesting the nicotine patch to a smoker, i'm talking about feeling ok about answering if a smoker ask me if i think s/he should try it.



I realize that now LBHMS. I'm sorry I misread your post.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 23, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> Yes it's selfish but I happen to be of the belief that there are certain areas of one's personal life and struggles that s/he has every right to be selfish about.



This isn't an observation about you, Lilly -- I just pulled this particular quote out because it resonates with me. To an extent, I agree with you. But when I add spouse/children/friends & family members who are vested in my continued good health, I think that it does matter - to them, and it should matter to me. And I don't think that I have a right anymore to be selfish about my health, or to make my struggles all about me. My son deserves to grow up with two healthy parents. I can't guarantee that to him, no matter what I do ... but there are certain things that are within my control. 

My husband has been struggling with the quit/restart smoking cycle. He's really trying, and I give him a lot of credit for that. I know that it's difficult for him. But I *have* to see an effort on his part. If he just gave up and went back to his pack a day habit, I'd feel very differently about him, and about what that means for our child. Jegan is asthmatic, and prone to ear infections. We've already had tubes put in his ears, and we nebulize him with a steroid/albuterol mix. Health impact to Jegan aside, we are also contending with the knowledge that Jerry's habit is a destructive one to him. We know that smoking causes cancer, and a plethora of other illnesses. Jerry's life, and his health, is no longer just about him (not that it ever was, but having a child tends to starkly deliniate that fact).

I don't think that anyone deserves to be beaten over the head with how "selfish" their actions/inactions are. We're human, we fail, and we make selfish mistakes ... all of us. We all deserve support, kindness, empathy. I respect my husband's struggles, just as I do my own. I know that we are both *trying* to make good decisions about our health & lifestyles. 

Giving up, or suggesting that it's OK to hang onto destructive lifestyle choices negates the reality that such choices *do* impact the people who love & rely on us. And to that end, I don't think that type of selfishness should ever be sympathized with. A measure of empathy, yes.


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 23, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> This isn't an observation about you, Lilly -- I just pulled this particular quote out because it resonates with me. To an extent, I agree with you. But when I add spouse/children/friends & family members who are vested in my continued good health, I think that it does matter - to them, and it should matter to me. And I don't think that I have a right anymore to be selfish about my health, or to make my struggles all about me. My son deserves to grow up with two healthy parents. I can't guarantee that to him, no matter what I do ... but there are certain things that are within my control.
> 
> My husband has been struggling with the quit/restart smoking cycle. He's really trying, and I give him a lot of credit for that. I know that it's difficult for him. But I *have* to see an effort on his part. If he just gave up and went back to his pack a day habit, I'd feel very differently about him, and about what that means for our child. Jegan is asthmatic, and prone to ear infections. We've already had tubes put in his ears, and we nebulize him with a steroid/albuterol mix. Health impact to Jegan aside, we are also contending with the knowledge that Jerry's habit is a destructive one to him. We know that smoking causes cancer, and a plethora of other illnesses. Jerry's life, and his health, is no longer just about him (not that it ever was, but having a child tends to starkly deliniate that fact).
> 
> ...



On that I agree with you 100%. My point, which I admit I'm not making very well, is that it would be unfair of somoene to see your husband having a smoke and assume right then and there that he is careless and doesn't care about himself or his family. It's the assumption that bugs me the most and what I find counterproductive. If he is, that's terrible but strangers jumping the gun is just a peeve with me.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 23, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> On that I agree with you 100%. My point, which I admit I'm not making very well, is that it would be unfair of somoene to see your husband having a smoke and assume right then and there that he is careless and doesn't care about himself or his family. It's the assumption that bugs me the most and what I find counterproductive. If he is, that's terrible but strangers jumping the gun is just a peeve with me.



I don't think he gives much thought to what strangers think of his habits.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 23, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Giving up, or suggesting that it's OK to hang onto destructive lifestyle choices negates the reality that such choices *do* impact the people who love & rely on us. And to that end, I don't think that type of selfishness should ever be sympathized with. A measure of empathy, yes.



Yep, I agree. And as far as the smoking thing goes with your little guy, just smoking in another room or outside isn't enough. Allergists believe that the residue left on clothing and skin can trigger an allergic reaction. Those chemicals are still there, even if they're not wafting in the air.

Another reason to quit. Not like quitting the addiction is easy to do, but if ever there was a reason to do so, wanting to do right by your kid is the best, in my opinion.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 23, 2008)

Sorry, for being the late guy to the discuss, but I recently have a "as long as you healthy" discussion recently with family as well. 

Of course, it came with the add twist argument "I lose x number of pounds, and I feel better." With a "Why don't you?" under their breath. So, I know where you are coming from. 

I don't consider myself unhealthy, however, the task of convincing people of they you are not in a destructive lifestyle, gets a bit annoying, specially when it's family and you are doing it over and over again.


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## Shosh (Apr 23, 2008)

I remember when I was a student years ago and the class was having a discussion about obesity and attitudes towards people who are obese. One woman said she thought that obese people were just of lower intelligence in general, lazy and stupid. She launched a really nasty verbal attack.

I saw her outside later smoking away like a chimney. I remember thinking that I guess smokers are intelligent then are they? 
It seems ok to have any bad habit as long as you are thin. That really makes me mad.


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 23, 2008)

Susannah said:


> I remember when I was a student years ago and the class was having a discussion about obesity and attitudes towards people who are obese. One woman said she thought that obese people were just of lower intelligence in general, lazy and stupid. She launched a really nasty verbal attack.
> 
> I saw her outside later smoking away like a chimney. I remember thinking that I guess smokers are intelligent then are they?
> It seems ok to have any bad habit as long as you are thin. That really makes me mad.



I know what you're saying Shosh. People still feel that there is no excuse for being fat. I can stick an entire pencil in my belly button. The reason I can do this is because I'm a freak, it's not because I worked hard or trained my belly to do it. It's not a common ability and I don't expect that because I can do it everybody else should be able to. I don't know why it's so hard for people to grasp that their are some people whose physical bodies are resistant to long term weightloss. Some people have to have their physical bodies altered to lose weight and improve their health and even that doesn't work 100% of the time.


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## liz (di-va) (Apr 23, 2008)

I agree, I think the _"as long as you're healthy"_ addendum is - can be - in a general sense - kind of an out clause for having to support somebody of size. I think the way people use the phrase individually varies, and isn't always such a cliche, but yeah--I think it's a pretty generalized and (can be) slippery way to just say it's not okay to be fat, in a different way.


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## ripley (Apr 23, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> What pisses me off about all this is the assumption of ill health. I've told this story before but I have brothers and sisters who smoke, drink, use recreationsal drugs, one can't hold a job but guess whose health everybody is worrying over? Yes yes, I know, isn't that sweet of them but that's not the point. They've all got high blood pressure, some have diabetes, my brother has a heart condition, my younger sister has one too. The difference is they are all thin or average size. I spent my whole life listening to people nag and fear monger about all these horrible diseases that would happen that drove me to nearly kill myself trying to be thin, and I mean that litterally. After all this time knowing this you would think the people around me would cut me some stinkin' slack. What, do they think I don't care? Nobody, I mean NOBODY, ever approaches my brothers or sisters and inquires or nags them about their health. Their smoking and whatever else they're doing is their business but my weight is EVERYBODY'S business and no matter what I'm doing it's just not good enough. And even with all that I am doing I will probably get diabetes anyway since it's hereditary. When that happens everyone will 'care' enough to show me their 'I told you so' faces that my brothers and sister never have to see. I'm sorry but if people really cared they would shut their GD mouths and support me in what is working. It's like I'm surrounded by zombies. I'm sorry your family members gave up on themselves but I'm sick and tired of being lectured by my family who assumes I spend my days rolling naked in chocolate pudding every time they see me and I have every right to be angry.



Can't rep you yet so I'm quoting to say "great post, Lilly."




The thing that bothers me about the "as long as you're healthy" comment is that it implies that the speaker is giving you _permission_ to be fat...or at least a pass on anti-fat rhetoric. 

I'm pretty healthy, besides some joint pain in my knees (sports injury from when I was younger, ironically) and apnea that I've had since I was diagnosed as a very skinny little eight year old...and the "as long as you're healthy" comment still pisses me off. I do not think it's a caring sentiment, as some like to couch it. I think it is a way to maintain control of fat people. If our defense is "fat can be healthy" and it's countered with "well, YOU are okay, because you're healthy" then where does that leave the unhealthy fat person? It leaves them still as fair game to a society that likes to vilify fatness.

Yo-yo dieting is extremely hard on your system and damaging to your health. Why that is preferable to managing high blood pressure or diabetes? Because society approves of thinness and disapproves of fatness. There is often the feeling, even here, that fat and healthy is okay, but fat and problems...well, you should lose. There is also a lot of "plump is okay and sexy, supersize is okay if you're healthy, but supersize and unhealthy...well, you should be directed immediately to the WLS threads."

That is bullshit. We are allowed to be fat. We are allowed to be fat and healthy. Fat and unhealthy? Well, of course it's the result of being fat! I was a vibrant, healthy 25 year old when I had my WLS. Not one single health problem. The WLS was the worst thing I ever did in terms of my health. "As long as you're healthy" is just another way people maintain a value judgment about fatness.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 23, 2008)

Thank you Ripley. That is exactly what I was trying to get at. You just said it better. 




ripley said:


> Can't rep you yet so I'm quoting to say "great post, Lilly."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 23, 2008)

Butch recently started a "Why Are You Thin?" thread. There were numerous answers ranging from genetics to active jobs to eating habits.

Now suppose a thin person posted and said s/he was thin or even just average sized. Suppose his/her answer to why are you thin was along these lines:

"I walk or jog several miles each day. I limit my diet to carrots, whole wheat toast, and hard boiled eggs. Sometimes if i eat too much i make myself throw up. That having been said, I suffer from very dry hair, fatigue, severe acid reflux and terrible shin splints and bad knees. Those issues may have to do with my lifestyle or they may not. Billions of Americans have knee problems. Acid reflux is found in men and women of all ages and health conditions. My sister has really dry hair and she's fat and drinks olive oil by the quart. Fatigue can be caused by dozens of things."

Is it possible that anyone would think "Well maybe barfing a lot isn't a good idea if you have acid reflux" or "Maybe miles of walking or jogging contributes to your knee problems and if you eased up your knees might feel better."

And suppose that thin person said that you had absolutely no right whatsoever to say that, or even think it. In fact, the thin person doesn't even consider him or herself unhealthy. Furthermore, the thin person thinks you're only thinking it's ok to comment because s/he is thin and because you *assume* those health issues are caused by lifestyle choices.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 23, 2008)

Maybe this is the wrong day for me to discuss this, because I'm very raw. My brother died today -- from complications of Diabetes. So, I'm more than a little upset and angry, mostly because of the decisions he made where he took his health so very very lightly. As a result of his shitty decisions, I'm left without a brother, our other brother (whose health is delicate) is devastated, and there will never be resolution to my anger at his treatment of me. I feel cheated, and very very angry. But that's only tangentially related to this subject, except that it definitely points to the fact that decisions we make DO affect our loves ones, most profoundly.

Ripley, I can absolutely understand why you would perceive the comment in question as a judgment, and maybe I would, too. But I've been the recipient of comments like that when it comes to other things in my life that I guess I'm immune to it. 

Examples:

I opted to have my daughter at home, with a midwife, a decision I made after a LOT of research and soul searching. Nearly everyone who knew about it felt the need to "pass judgment" on my decision. "Are you crazy?" was an occasional comment but mostly it was "Oh, I could never do that. It's just too dangerous. I'd be too scared. Is that even legal?" I mean, talk about feeling judged! The nicest comments came after I explained (justified) my decision and they said, "Well, as long as it goes okay..." Duh. People treated me like I was a total moron incapable of making a rational decision, and some even thought it was a worth a call to CPS.

I then experienced similar comments later when it would come out that I opted not to vaccinate my children against all the childhood illnesses. Same kind of things. "How could you do that?" "Aren't you scared?" And the inevitable, "Well, as long she doesn't get sick, you'll be fine." Again: judgment.

I suppose, though, that even though those comments were irritating I felt that at the source of it was a very genuine concern about my health and the health of my kids. I also saw it as an opportunity to educate, a "teachable moment", as it were, as to other ways of looking at things. Even though the language felt judgmental (and yes, they were judging my decision), it did come from a place of love and care, most of the comments anyway. 

I totally "get" that we as fat people are judged by society as being unworthy, as being not good enough, as being just "wrong". But I think it's unfair to not look at the individual comment in the context of the conversation and give the person the benefit of the doubt if they're our friend or loved one. The way I look at it, they're victims of the same f'd up society that created fat phobia, so it's no wonder they approach the idea of being fat and healthy as they do. I think we get a lot further by educating people than we do by being offended.


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## TearInYourHand (Apr 23, 2008)

Vickie, I know that this is not the topic of this thread, but I wanted to post to say that I am very sorry for the loss of your brother. I wish I could reach through the screen to give you a big hug. Seriously.


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## love dubh (Apr 23, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> Maybe this is the wrong day for me to discuss this, because I'm very raw. My brother died today -- from complications of Diabetes. So, I'm more than a little upset and angry, mostly because of the decisions he made where he took his health so very very lightly. As a result of his shitty decisions, I'm left without a brother, our other brother (whose health is delicate) is devastated, and there will never be resolution to my anger at his treatment of me. I feel cheated, and very very angry. But that's only tangentially related to this subject, except that it definitely points to the fact that decisions we make DO affect our loves ones, most profoundly.
> 
> Ripley, I can absolutely understand why you would perceive the comment in question as a judgment, and maybe I would, too. But I've been the recipient of comments like that when it comes to other things in my life that I guess I'm immune to it.
> 
> ...



My condolences to you and your family, Vicks. You've written of your brother before, and the anger/fear he's inspired in you because of his carelessness. It's truly shitty, and even if your brother was a douche, it's sorrowful to have to bury him.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 23, 2008)

Vickie said:


> I totally "get" that we as fat people are judged by society as being unworthy, as being not good enough, as being just "wrong". But I think it's unfair to not look at the individual comment in the context of the conversation and give the person the benefit of the doubt if they're our friend or loved one. The way I look at it, they're victims of the same f'd up society that created fat phobia, so it's no wonder they approach the idea of being fat and healthy as they do. I think we get a lot further by educating people than we do by being offended.




First of all Vickie I am very sorry to hear about your loss.

I wanted to address this but I do not want you to think I am attacking you - I'm not - but I have strong feelings about this.

OK so here goes:

In plain English about educating instead of being offended. Forgive me but - Fuck that! I'm so over understanding what stupid and insensitive things people say. Let them get a brain and learn some manners. I'm old - I'm fat and I'm tired of worrying about others feelings when no one gives a damn about mine.

Vickie I appreciate your opinion and I hope you understand I was not attacking you. The last thing I want to do is argue with you tonight.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 23, 2008)

Sorry but I don't understand your point here at all. 




LoveBHMS said:


> Butch recently started a "Why Are You Thin?" thread. There were numerous answers ranging from genetics to active jobs to eating habits.
> 
> Now suppose a thin person posted and said s/he was thin or even just average sized. Suppose his/her answer to why are you thin was along these lines:
> 
> ...


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 24, 2008)

My point is, would you apply the same attitudes towards a thin person's health as you want applied towards your own.

And can you say that you would never look at a thin person's health issue that you thought might be a function of their lifestyle choice and think they should change.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 24, 2008)

TearInYourHand said:


> Vickie, I know that this is not the topic of this thread, but I wanted to post to say that I am very sorry for the loss of your brother. I wish I could reach through the screen to give you a big hug. Seriously.





love dubh said:


> My condolences to you and your family, Vicks. You've written of your brother before, and the anger/fear he's inspired in you because of his carelessness. It's truly shitty, and even if your brother was a douche, it's sorrowful to have to bury him.



Thanks, guys. Like I said, the only reason I brought it up in this thread is to point out that our decisions definitely impact those who love us. In my brother's case, I tried to talk him *out* of WLS. I don't blame his WLS for his death, although I'm sure it didn't help since the corrective surgeries he had over the years probably compromised his already weakened system. But by far the largest culprit was his indifference toward his health, coupled with our shitty genetics.  



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Vickie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't feel attacked at all, Sandie. And thank you for your condolences. I know you probably understand the mixed feelings I have about the death of my abuser. (sigh) 

And you're right. People should have manners, and too often they're insensitive louts in the way they approach people. On that we TOTALLY agree. My mama definitely taught me that it's NOT okay to offer unsolicited comments and advice to and about people. Not about their health, not what they're eating, not what they're wearing. It's definitely the "if you can't say anything nice" idiom that many of us (not nearly enough of us in my opinion) learn, and it makes me uncomfortable when people act like that because I feel they don't have a proper sense of boundaries. 

But getting angry doesn't help me. Trying to accept that they mean well and speaking honestly and forthrightly about how I feel *does* help me, though, and them, and the next person they encounter who might be in the same situation. Believe me, I'm not saying "suck it up and don't respond" because I think it's important to respond. But what I'm trying to avoid in my *cough cough* old age is seeing insult where none was intended. I'm definitely all about calling people on their shit when they act rudely, and I'm sorry if my comments have maybe been interpreted to mean otherwise. What I'm trying to avoid, though, is a) assuming people mean to be pricks when they don't mean to be, and b) seeing an anti size acceptance message where one may not exist. I still see it as an opportunity to educate, but perhaps what I should have said is that we can be righteous and own our truth, AND also educate them at the same time. I'm just not sure how effective we might be at that if we assume they mean the worst.

I think that's what I'm trying to say, anyway. I'm sorry if I'm not being more clear.


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## LalaCity (Apr 24, 2008)

((((((Vickie))))))


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## Shosh (Apr 24, 2008)

My sincere condolences Vickie.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 24, 2008)

There is one very important thing you don't know about me. I never, ever judge what I don't know. Never. I don't judge people's lifestyle choices, sexuality, marriages, jobs, how they live their day to day life - nothing.

So, judging a person's health issues is so foreign to me - I don't even understand it.







LoveBHMS said:


> My point is, would you apply the same attitudes towards a thin person's health as you want applied towards your own.
> 
> And can you say that you would never look at a thin person's health issue that you thought might be a function of their lifestyle choice and think they should change.


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> My point is, would you apply the same attitudes towards a thin person's health as you want applied towards your own.
> 
> And can you say that you would never look at a thin person's health issue that you thought might be a function of their lifestyle choice and think they should change.



Absolutely. I knew a girl like that. Everybody assumed she was anorexic but after some time of working tediously with her doctors it was discovered she had scleroderma. She was ill and nobody believed her they were so busy judging. I have sense enough now not to assume I know everything.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 24, 2008)

ripley said:


> Yo-yo dieting is extremely hard on your system and damaging to your health. Why that is preferable to managing high blood pressure or diabetes? Because society approves of thinness and disapproves of fatness. There is often the feeling, even here, that fat and healthy is okay, but fat and problems...well, you should lose. There is also a lot of "plump is okay and sexy, supersize is okay if you're healthy, but supersize and unhealthy...well, you should be directed immediately to the WLS threads."
> 
> That is bullshit. We are allowed to be fat. We are allowed to be fat and healthy. Fat and unhealthy? Well, of course it's the result of being fat! I was a vibrant, healthy 25 year old when I had my WLS. Not one single health problem. The WLS was the worst thing I ever did in terms of my health. "As long as you're healthy" is just another way people maintain a value judgment about fatness.



Ripley, I understand and agree with everything that you said. I just wanted to point out that in my mind, there is a distinction between the judgmental opinions of complete strangers, and the concern expressed by family members (which isn't always altruistic, either). Yes, there can be some judgment attached to an "I'm concerned about you and your health" message ... but what is important to me is the intent behind that sentiment. If a stranger or an acquaintance made any mention at all about my weight, not to mention relating it to my health, he/she would get an earful. A loving family member or a dear friend? It's different. To me, it just is. Doesn't mean that I don't have the right to tell them that I don't care to discuss my health, or that they're idiots for assuming that I can't be fat and healthy, or that it's just not any of their freakin' business. I just wouldn't assume that there's an evil or thoughtless intent behind that expression of concern. Maybe some ignorance.

As for the "directed immediately to the WLS thread" kind of people ... well, they really aren't worth a second of our time or consideration, are they? That's another brand of ignorance altogether, and no amount of education is going to change *that* perspective.


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## butch (Apr 24, 2008)

I don't know that I can always be more understanding or accepting of the health messages when they come from family. When I was a child, my mom would tell me that if I didn't lose weight, I'd have a stroke and die, becasue she was concerned about my health. I had a classmate who had a brain aneurism (how do you spell that word?) and ended up with brain damage, so this thought scared me to pieces. A few years later, I confused growing pains with the signs of a heart attack, and there I was, 14 years old, going to the doctor to make sure I wasn't going to have a heart attack anytime soon.

As an adult, I still have this nagging crazy thought that my 'fate' is to die prematurely, and so the legacy of that concern for my health has actually lessened my mental health, if not my physical health. Don't know if this relates to the topic at hand, but wanted to show that even family aren't always genuinely concerned about one's health when they talk about a fat family member's health.


Vickie, so sorry to hear about your brother. My thoughts and agnostic prayers are with you and your family.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 24, 2008)

Vickie said:


> And thank you for your condolences. I know you probably understand the mixed feelings I have about the death of my abuser. (sigh)



Oh Vickie - I do understand and my heart aches for you. I had no resolution in my situation and from what I know about you I'm gonna assume that you also had none. My abuser died even before I remembered the abuse. I still harbor anger that I never got to scream at him because of the pain he's cause me over the years. But ultimately I have to deal with these issues in my own anyway. I wish you onlu the best in healing from this pain Vickie. And I wish you the thing I wish for all abuse survivors and myself - peace.

((((Vickie))))


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## liz (di-va) (Apr 24, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *LoveBHMS* 

 
_My point is, would you apply the same attitudes towards a thin person's health as you want applied towards your own.

And can you say that you would never look at a thin person's health issue that you thought might be a function of their lifestyle choice and think they should change._

I work really hard to not assume, skinny or fat. Not never--we're all human beings--but I pride myself on _trying_ to not make assumptions about people's physical world based on size or what I _think_ I know they're doing. All you have to do is be in one eating disorder group with a "healthy" skinny chick who barfs all day and can't digest food to stop assuming that. Or be in one exercise class with a skinny chick who's in worse shape than you are. Or whatever the configuration is. You never know what people do in private, you never know what people's full medical history is, you don't know nearly what you think you do from looking at anybody. ANYBODY. Actually, teaching an exercise class is another good way to find that out. Never know from looking.

This, in fact, is one of the responsibilities as I see it, in getting older. To stop assuming you know, because you should have had that experience by now and paid attention to it--the experience of having your expectations blown to bits. Most people in the size acceptance movement HAVE DONE THIS, Loves. We've had so many assumptions made about ourselves that we've had to understand how often it's bullshit.

Another good example is like Lilly's -- people always assume rapid weight loss is a sign of intent, but I never do. You never know why somebody suddenly loses weight. I can't tell you how many people went up to my dying, eaten by cancer, incredibly ill aunt and told her how healthy she looked (she was thinner). People don't *see*.


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## Ruby Ripples (Apr 24, 2008)

mergirl said:


> i actually remember chatting to someone about how sexy big women were and they started telling me in a really patronising way about "health" issues surrounding being "overweight" (their words NEVER mine) .. and i kid ye not they were drinking beer and smoking a ciggarette at the time! i might have laughed at the irony were i not so anoyed and with my political defensive hat on!!
> personally i think they were just pissed off cause they were chatting me up and i didnt fancy them! lmao..
> they also said that people who were big couldnt possibly be happy and even if they said they were then secretly they wernt..
> lucky for me (and for them) i've never bumped into them again!
> xmer



OMG was she shortish with botox and fake boobs, I swear that's my sister, Sandra! LMAO!


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 24, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Ripley, I understand and agree with everything that you said. I just wanted to point out that in my mind, there is a distinction between the judgmental opinions of complete strangers, and the concern expressed by family members (which isn't always altruistic, either). Yes, there can be some judgment attached to an "I'm concerned about you and your health" message ... but what is important to me is the intent behind that sentiment. If a stranger or an acquaintance made any mention at all about my weight, not to mention relating it to my health, he/she would get an earful. A loving family member or a dear friend? It's different. To me, it just is. Doesn't mean that I don't have the right to tell them that I don't care to discuss my health, or that they're idiots for assuming that I can't be fat and healthy, or that it's just not any of their freakin' business. I just wouldn't assume that there's an evil or thoughtless intent behind that expression of concern. Maybe some ignorance.
> 
> As for the "directed immediately to the WLS thread" kind of people ... well, they really aren't worth a second of our time or consideration, are they? That's another brand of ignorance altogether, and no amount of education is going to change *that* perspective.



I straddle the fence between two schools of thought on this. I don't think it's anybody's business what grown people choose to do or how they choose to live. OTOH I've been in situations where I felt compelled to take someone aside and have a little talk. I'm the oldest sister so I have no issues whatsoever with prying into people's business but I'm not a nag. My parents' response to my nonsense when I was young was, "Ok Rockhead, go ahead and do it your way. But when you get your teeth knocked out don't come crying to me." That ultimately means for sure I should come crying to them but they reserve the right to smugly nod and say, "I told you so," when their doomsday prophesy comes to fruition. There's something to be said though for listening carefuly to what your errant family member has to say, hearing their concerns through the throbbing urgency of your own and trying to work with them and give them space to work with themselves. 

So yes, I do believe there should be allowances for some level of concern expressed from family members but badgering and harassment is not up for negotiation. The best working approach I've seen is to state your peace and let it go. If their issues effect you in some way you have the right to lay down the law and set some guidelines in place that keeps their behavior from bleeding into your life. "You can't bring your thug friends around here, if I see one of them I'm calling the cops just for fun." You don't have to do so as disfunctionally as we do in our family but this method preservs both your sanity and theirs.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 24, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> I straddle the fence between two schools of thought on this. I don't think it's anybody's business what grown people choose to do or how they choose to live. OTOH I've been in situations where I felt compelled to take someone aside and have a little talk. I'm the oldest sister so I have no issues whatsoever with prying into people's business but I'm not a nag. My parents' response to my nonsense when I was young was, "Ok Rockhead, go ahead and do it your way. But when you get your teeth knocked out don't come crying to me." That ultimately means for sure I should come crying to them but they reserve the right to smugly nod and say, "I told you so," when their doomsday prophesy comes to fruition. There's something to be said though for listening carefuly to what your errant family member has to say, hearing their concerns through the throbbing urgency of your own and trying to work with them and give them space to work with themselves.
> 
> So yes, I do believe there should be allowances for some level of concern expressed from family members but badgering and harassment is not up for negotiation. The best working approach I've seen is to state your peace and let it go. If their issues effect you in some way you have the right to lay down the law and set some guidelines in place that keeps their behavior from bleeding into your life. "You can't bring your thug friends around here, if I see one of them I'm calling the cops just for fun." You don't have to do so as disfunctionally as we do in our family but this method preservs both your sanity and theirs.




Well, I can only speak to my own experience, Lilly ... as you do yours. My family never actually discussed my weight, or questioned me about it, or made doom 'n gloom remarks about how it may/may not have been affecting my overall health. They did bring up my smoking, years back when I was puffing down nearly 2 packs a day. I knew that they were concerned. Had any of them brought up my weight, I would have known that it wasn't a judgmental thing. But we're talking about my family, and my experiences with them. I know that how I felt about my dad was not colored by negative judgment of him as a person - it was fueled by my sense of helplessness at watching him suffer, and fail, and wither into a fragile child-like husk of his formerly hearty self. 

I don't think we *always* know when a person is judging us negatively ... but most of us have a pretty good idea. I didn't mean to imply differently, and I hoped that wasn't how I came across.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 24, 2008)

I've been kind of kicking around this whole idea of judging and whether or not anyone has the "right" to tell you what to do. 

Thinking back to my personal example of having severe joint problems. If i decided to gain 200 pounds for a partner, I could very well tell others that my weight gain was not a topic for discussion and I did not wish to hear any reminders of my bursitis. And I'm sure people would stop bothering me if i told them to.

And let's say this scenario happens where people who don't know or care about me and are not concerned find out I'm doing this. They see a person with a chronic and painful joint condition purposefully gaining 200 pounds. Are they going to have an opinion on somebody engaging in that behaviour? Probably. Is it "fair" for them to do so? I don't know. Maybe. Chances are if you watching somebody with joint problems add 200 pounds to their body, you might wonder why they were doing something so unsafe and potentially crippling.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> . Are they going to have an opinion on somebody engaging in that behaviour? Probably. Is it "fair" for them to do so? I don't know. Maybe. Chances are if you watching somebody with joint problems add 200 pounds to their body, you might wonder why they were doing something so unsafe and potentially crippling.



It's most definitely unfair to judge someone that you don't know, and have no vested interest in. It may be human, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

We aren't medical doctors. We aren't psychologists or interested loved ones. The scenario that you described above -- it would be your decision, your body. 

On what basis do you think it would be OK to judge someone who would match the scenario that you described above?


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## Shosh (Apr 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I've been kind of kicking around this whole idea of judging and whether or not anyone has the "right" to tell you what to do.
> 
> Thinking back to my personal example of having severe joint problems. If i decided to gain 200 pounds for a partner, I could very well tell others that my weight gain was not a topic for discussion and I did not wish to hear any reminders of my bursitis. And I'm sure people would stop bothering me if i told them to.
> 
> And let's say this scenario happens where people who don't know or care about me and are not concerned find out I'm doing this. They see a person with a chronic and painful joint condition purposefully gaining 200 pounds. Are they going to have an opinion on somebody engaging in that behaviour? Probably. Is it "fair" for them to do so? I don't know. Maybe. Chances are if you watching somebody with joint problems add 200 pounds to their body, you might wonder why they were doing something so unsafe and potentially crippling.



I personally agree with you here. If one has a chronic condition like you have with bursitis I believe that you do need to address it by being as healthy as you can and not do anything that would exacerbate it further.
My neurologist was very adament with me in 2003 that I lose the weight, as MS is a disease that can slowly effect mobility as it progresses over the years.
I am glad that the neuro was very firm with me about my weight now, as had I not dropped it I would be struggling even more than I am now, and I am not well at the moment.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 24, 2008)

I don't understand why you care? I mean honestly it's not anyones place to judge anyone. IMHO.




LoveBHMS said:


> I've been kind of kicking around this whole idea of judging and whether or not anyone has the "right" to tell you what to do.
> 
> Thinking back to my personal example of having severe joint problems. If i decided to gain 200 pounds for a partner, I could very well tell others that my weight gain was not a topic for discussion and I did not wish to hear any reminders of my bursitis. And I'm sure people would stop bothering me if i told them to.
> 
> And let's say this scenario happens where people who don't know or care about me and are not concerned find out I'm doing this. They see a person with a chronic and painful joint condition purposefully gaining 200 pounds. Are they going to have an opinion on somebody engaging in that behaviour? Probably. Is it "fair" for them to do so? I don't know. Maybe. Chances are if you watching somebody with joint problems add 200 pounds to their body, you might wonder why they were doing something so unsafe and potentially crippling.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 24, 2008)

See I think it's the idea of 'judging' that i'm kicking around in my head. That and the idea of somebody's 'right' to have an opinion on what I'm doing.

Sure they're my joints. And sure it would be my choice to engage in the weight gain. I guess what I'm wondering about is this idea of whether or not anyone has the "right" to have an opinion on what I'm doing.

It's like Mike Tyson getting a tattoo on his face. Does he have the right to do it? Sure. Is it reasonable to think that others will have an opinion on how it looks? Yeah, I have to think it is. He can't reasonabley think he's going to stop other people from having an opinion or yes, even making judgements on it.


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## ESPN Cutie (Apr 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I fail to see what is distasteful about worrying about somebody's well being...And no, I never would have told him to keep smoking so long as he was healthy because smoking makes you unhealthy.



*ICAM. Why tell someone "Its ok to continue to do what you're doing", if you know its unhealthy? 

And I think it's judgemental to assume everyone who asks about your health has ill intentions.*


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## ESPN Cutie (Apr 24, 2008)

ashmamma84 said:


> I know there have been times when I have written a loved one off because I felt like she was nagging or just trying to pry into my personal life...but in the end when I thought about things, it was my own insecurity, sensitivity and a wall that I put up about my fat.



*Exactly. It sounds defensive and insecure (to me) to say anyone who is concerned about your health is doing so for their own personal triumph.*


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 24, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I've been kind of kicking around this whole idea of judging and whether or not anyone has the "right" to tell you what to do.
> 
> Thinking back to my personal example of having severe joint problems. If i decided to gain 200 pounds for a partner, I could very well tell others that my weight gain was not a topic for discussion and I did not wish to hear any reminders of my bursitis. And I'm sure people would stop bothering me if i told them to.
> 
> And let's say this scenario happens where people who don't know or care about me and are not concerned find out I'm doing this. They see a person with a chronic and painful joint condition purposefully gaining 200 pounds. Are they going to have an opinion on somebody engaging in that behaviour? Probably. Is it "fair" for them to do so? I don't know. Maybe. Chances are if you watching somebody with joint problems add 200 pounds to their body, you might wonder why they were doing something so unsafe and potentially crippling.



I personally wouldn't do something deliberately that would force my family to have to change their plans or their lives to help me clean up the mess. I have a baby sister who is good for wracklessly doing crap that people beg her not to do. But head strong and defiant she does is anyway and then my elderly parents are shelling out money to clean up her mess again. I wouldn't do something that would potentially effect other people if I could help it.

It's a slippery slope. The problem lies in what one considers wreckless. At one time my mother was against me dating a white man and carried on and on about it. Surely it was from a place of concern and she believed she was doing what was best but I had to put a stop to it. My mother believes that my complacency in remaining obese is detrimental to my health. I disagree and have watched my health deteriorate from repeated attempts to lose. Weightloss has been directly responsible for all the problems I face now and my disposition has improved dramatically once I quit the cycle. I've even lost 40 pounds unintentionally. I don't care if nobody believes me. Somewhere along the line I have to make a smart decision based on tangible evidence as it applies to me. If Dr. Phil has a lady on his show who lost 150 pounds drinking coconut milk, my mother will send me a case of coconut milk purchased with money from her social security check -- because Dr. Phil endorses it. Since my mother is retired and on a fixed income this is a big problem. 

There are times when people believe that they know exactly what you must do. Somtimes they're wrong. I've been as patient as I can to try to explain myself and when that doesn't work I have to put my foot down.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Apr 24, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> What pisses me off about all this is the assumption of ill health. I've told this story before but I have brothers and sisters who smoke, drink, use recreationsal drugs, one can't hold a job but guess whose health everybody is worrying over? Yes yes, I know, isn't that sweet of them but that's not the point. They've all got high blood pressure, some have diabetes, my brother has a heart condition, my younger sister has one too. The difference is they are all thin or average size. I spent my whole life listening to people nag and fear monger about all these horrible diseases that would happen that drove me to nearly kill myself trying to be thin, and I mean that litterally. After all this time knowing this you would think the people around me would cut me some stinkin' slack. What, do they think I don't care? Nobody, I mean NOBODY, ever approaches my brothers or sisters and inquires or nags them about their health. Their smoking and whatever else they're doing is their business but my weight is EVERYBODY'S business and no matter what I'm doing it's just not good enough. And even with all that I am doing I will probably get diabetes anyway since it's hereditary. When that happens everyone will 'care' enough to show me their 'I told you so' faces that my brothers and sister never have to see. I'm sorry but if people really cared they would shut their GD mouths and support me in what is working. It's like I'm surrounded by zombies. I'm sorry your family members gave up on themselves but I'm sick and tired of being lectured by my family who assumes I spend my days rolling naked in chocolate pudding every time they see me and I have every right to be angry.



I hear you, Lilly. My Mother and Father both acted like my life was over because of my weight. I told my Mom that I suppose that ALL THE GOOD I have accomplished in my life must not mean shit. I asked her if she would FINALLY be satisfied with me if I smoked crack....because crackheads are skinny...and that is ALL THAT MATTERS, RIGHT????? It doesn't matter if I did drugs, had babies I abandoned, robbed/lied/stealed , never worked a day in my life or prostituted myself out.....AS LONG AS I DID IT ALL SKINNY. SKINNY, SKINNY, SKINNY because SKINNY is A-FUCKING-OKAY, Right? 
She actually had to shut it....... 



Susannah said:


> Hey Sandie,
> There are days when I effin hate my band, but I am glad that I had it inserted in general.
> 
> I used to hate it when people would always be at me about losing weight. Sometimes they would never let up. My sister Rebecca especially. I know in her case she just loves me and wants the best for me.
> ...




Lol Shoshie...you make a good point. I won't ALLOW my Mom to ride me about my weight (not to my face anyway  ) so know what she does? She finds something else to harp on me about.......

It's true, if people want to say something negative or "worry" about you, they will always find SOMETHING to rag on


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Apr 24, 2008)

mergirl said:


> i actually remember chatting to someone about how sexy big women were and they started telling me in a really patronising way about "health" issues surrounding being "overweight" (their words NEVER mine) .. and i kid ye not they were drinking beer and smoking a ciggarette at the time! i might have laughed at the irony were i not so anoyed and with my political defensive hat on!!
> personally i think they were just pissed off cause they were chatting me up and i didnt fancy them! lmao..
> they also said that people who were big couldnt possibly be happy and even if they said they were then secretly they wernt..
> lucky for me (and for them) i've never bumped into them again!
> xmer




Lol, I dated a man that had the nerve to insinuate that I must be unhealthy because of my weight....whilst he smoked a pack and could drink two pints a day. I asked him where he got his Doctorate...... 

Btw, I don't drink often/regularly or smoke. For years, I have been able to "outwalk" my brother when we exercise together. I outweigh him by about 50- 70 lbs at any given time. He smoked for twenty years while I didn't. My lungs work better than his...even though he quit over ten years ago and with much more weight on me.


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## Jon Blaze (Apr 25, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> *Another good one from Just some lady*



I agree with this I think. Well basically the principle of it. It seems balanced. People that are concerned aren't always going to think less of you (Nor are they judging you), but you can't go either way with the assumption. They might be, or they may not be.

The thing about it is: Health shouldn't be a moral issue at all, and the tone says a lot about the intent. If one truly wanted to help someone, then they wouldn't be hateful.

And I agree with Traci's comment about qualifications as well. It's like people assuming I'm in perfect health. 20 year olds can never be developing arthiritis, have nasal problems, or plantar fascittis. WE ARE UNSTOPPABLE!


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## mergirl (Apr 25, 2008)

Ruby Ripples said:


> OMG was she shortish with botox and fake boobs, I swear that's my sister, Sandra! LMAO!


oh god! maby it was your sister! Does she drink in partick!! lmao


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## mergirl (Apr 25, 2008)

hmmm.. this is a really interesting thred.
i think going back to the inital point..about getting pissed off by people saying to you if your fat.. "well as long as your healthy"...
firstly i am an on and off smoker (total weak willed pariah lol).. i quit for a while then have a few drinks with friends who smoke and then kid myself on that "one wont hurt"!! muwahahaha,,
anyway.. i think the smoking and weight issues are very different..
one..no one has EVER said to me.."ahh your a smoker.. well so long as your healthy"! 
cause its blatently obvious that were i not to smoke i would be a lot healthier..!
but i think.. well i know from the people i know.. you CAN be big and healthy..
i think what was the pissed off point (or pop for short) was the fact that anyone should comment about your personal health to you anyway..especially if you dont really know them.. i think that would enrage me!!
Then again.,.and this might anoy some people.. but the majority (well pretty much all) the bbw's i know (in real life, not through dim etc) actually arnt happy with thier weight.. and want to loose weight.. something which makes me want to cry! but by the same token its horrible seeing someone you love or care about feeling miserable!
i could ramble on forever about this.. blee blah.. "maby if people lost weight they would still be unhappy", "why bow down to social pressures etc.. etc etc etc....
but at the end of the day.. i know in the case of my friends THEY obviously know they are fat so it really makes no sense what so ever for people to come up to them in the pub and say stuff like "oh you should loose weight" or the classic "you would be hot if you were thinner"!!
IT MAKES ME RAGE!! 
erm..whats my point caller?
oh yes.. my point is.. people are obviously aware of themselves so it really does piss me off when people make assumptions that they will want to hear pish about health etc etc.. and it pisses me off even more when they assume people will be "inspired" somehow by thier ussless comments and (quite obviously wrong) ideals of attractiveness!
ive had pals nights in the pub ruined by arseholes like that.. 
erm ..i think i am begining to ramble.. but my point was about "assumption" and "personal awareness" but it all kinna got lost in the mists of memory anger that are steaming up around me!!!
erm.. i think i need a translator..
xmer


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 25, 2008)

mergirl said:


> hmmm.. this is a really interesting thred.
> i think going back to the inital point..about getting pissed off by people saying to you if your fat.. "well as long as your healthy"...
> firstly i am an on and off smoker (total weak willed pariah lol).. i quit for a while then have a few drinks with friends who smoke and then kid myself on that "one wont hurt"!! muwahahaha,,
> anyway.. i think the smoking and weight issues are very different..
> ...



It would also depend on the context:

FRIEND: Say Lilly, do you still live in Brighton on the Cambridge border?
ME: No, it got too expensive. I moved to Lynn last year. The rent is much cheaper.
FRIEND: Oh. Well as long as you're healthy. 

In that context the phrase is a not so well hidden slam against the town you live in and its reputation. Now lets be frank here, everybody knows that Lynn is the armpit of Massachusetts but in this conversation it would be considered rude to imply such unless you _really_ know the person well.


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## mergirl (Apr 25, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> It would also depend on the context:
> 
> FRIEND: Say Lilly, do you still live in Brighton on the Cambridge border?
> ME: No, it got too expensive. I moved to Lynn last year. The rent is much cheaper.
> ...


lol.. i never knew that lynne was considered the armpit of mass but then i am scottish.,
but..did you know sighthill is the arsehole of glasgow?
hmm.. i suppose you could say "as long as your healthy" in any context.. its a bit like "as long as your happy" though.. which usually has all sorts of hidden agendas..like:
friend-so your taking a year out from your degree to concentrate on your writing?
me-yessum 
friend-well as long as your happy

cont..

friend-so that must mean you are much poorer?

me-well i eat beans every night and have electricity that works by my mouse collection on tiny wee tredmills..

friend-well as long as your healthy..

then..

friend-i have nothing more to say on the matter

me-good.. you were begining to do my nut in! 

friend-you want to go for a beer

me-always

etc etc

xmer


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## Tina (Apr 25, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Lol, I dated a man that had the nerve to insinuate that I must be unhealthy because of my weight....whilst he smoked a pack and could drink two pints a day. I asked him where he got his Doctorate......


Oh, honey, this SO reminds me of the guy -- the fat guy -- who told me (when I was 19 and an adorable 180 lbs, but thought I was ugly) that he would date me if I lost weight.

Being very shy and not NEARLY as outspoken as I am now (he'd get a very different reaction were he to say it to me now, you'd better believe ), so I didn't say much of anything, but the irony, and nerve, was not lost on me.


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## ekmanifest (Apr 25, 2008)

Tina said:


> Oh, honey, this SO reminds me of the guy -- the fat guy -- who told me (when I was 19 and an adorable 180 lbs, but thought I was ugly) that he would date me if I lost weight.
> 
> Being very shy and not NEARLY as outspoken as I am now (he'd get a very different reaction were he to say it to me now, you'd better believe ), so I didn't say much of anything, but the irony, and nerve, was not lost on me.



And this reminds me of the guy who told me when I was 20 and *140 pounds* that he thought I was really sexy but needed to lose some weight and proceeded to make me run with him . . . which I, in my desire for approval, actually did.


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## mergirl (Apr 25, 2008)

ekmanifest said:


> And this reminds me of the guy who told me when I was 20 and *140 pounds* that he thought I was really sexy but needed to lose some weight and proceeded to make me run with him . . . which I, in my desire for approval, actually did.


oh gah! controlling people are like vultures! Dont you wish you could go back in time with the insight you have now and tell him to stick his run up his bum!!! gah!
xmer


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 25, 2008)

ekmanifest said:


> And this reminds me of the guy who told me when I was 20 and *140 pounds* that he thought I was really sexy but needed to lose some weight and proceeded to make me run with him . . . which I, in my desire for approval, actually did.



I would have grabbed a 2x4 and told Romeo I'm giving him a 5 second head start.


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## Tina (Apr 25, 2008)

Yeah, no kidding, Lilly. I always loved sprinting and did so at 300+ lbs (which is partly why I need new knees...). I'd have caught up with that jerk and given the term, "he's got wood," a whole new meaning.


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## mergirl (Apr 25, 2008)

haha roflmao!!
why even bother about the 5 second start?
or even the warning?
you are my new heroine!
xmer


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## ekmanifest (Apr 25, 2008)

Let me google him and find him and we can all charge him !!!!


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## olwen (Apr 25, 2008)

You know, there's all this sentiment about how your family members and friends should be given the benefit of the doubt because they love you. I think in a lot of cases family members and friends are the worst offenders. Just because they love you doesn't mean their intentions come from a place of love. Families have weird dynamics. I'm the fat one and I know that not being the fat one makes some of my family members feel better about themselves. Not all families are loving and supportive. Just cause you share blood doesn't mean you automatically love each other. Some people have absolutely no business being related to each other.

I remember when I was a little kid my mom would say she wanted me to loose weight cause she wanted me to be happy and get married and such. Funny I don't remember her saying much about my health. I just remember thinking that if she truly loved me she'd see that her weight loss/diet talk was making me miserable. If she truly loved me she'd accept me as I am. She judged me to be some sort of deviant for being fat. I must have been 9 or 10. I'm sure that to this day she wonders what she could have done wrong to have had such a fat daughter. But you better believe that when I finally got to the breaking point I told her in no uncertain terms that all the fat bashing was gonna have to stop.

The one thing I have learned not to judge people on is sexuality. People do so many varied strange and unexpected things in the bedroom. I find myself trying to figure out what people's kinks are. I don't base it on the way they look tho cause I know how deceptive looks can be. I try to go by their faces and the vibe I get from them.

ETA: This is such an interesting thread. I wanna rep so many people but I can't right now. And Vickie, I'm sorry about your loss. My condolences.


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## Paquito (Apr 25, 2008)

I think the negative part of the statement "as long as you're healthy" is that the underlying tone is that "we will leave you alone - for now. But as soon as you become unhealthy, we will attack you with all our strength, the weapons being weight loss pamplets and diet books."


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Apr 26, 2008)

olwen said:


> You know, there's all this sentiment about how your family members and friends should be given the benefit of the doubt because they love you. I think in a lot of cases family members and friends are the worst offenders. Just because they love you doesn't mean their intentions come from a place of love. Families have weird dynamics. I'm the fat one and I know that not being the fat one makes some of my family members feel better about themselves. Not all families are loving and supportive. Just cause you share blood doesn't mean you automatically love each other. Some people have absolutely no business being related to each other.
> 
> I remember when I was a little kid my mom would say she wanted me to loose weight cause she wanted me to be happy and get married and such. Funny I don't remember her saying much about my health. I just remember thinking that if she truly loved me she'd see that her weight loss/diet talk was making me miserable. If she truly loved me she'd accept me as I am. She judged me to be some sort of deviant for being fat. I must have been 9 or 10. I'm sure that to this day she wonders what she could have done wrong to have had such a fat daughter. But you better believe that when I finally got to the breaking point I told her in no uncertain terms that all the fat bashing was gonna have to stop.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with this about family and friends- if they manage to always make you end up feeling like shit about yourself and you let them know that, I can't see how they "have your best intentions" at heart. It really IS more about them and their insecurities/beliefs than you.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 28, 2008)

free2beme04 said:


> I think the negative part of the statement "as long as you're healthy" is that the underlying tone is that "we will leave you alone - for now. But as soon as you become unhealthy, we will attack you with all our strength, the weapons being weight loss pamplets and diet books."



You know why? Because not being healthy is a bad thing.

Does somebody have the "right" to be unhealthy? Yes.
Is it rude to badger somebody who has asked that the subject of health not be brought up? Yes.

But every concern over somebody's health is not the same thing as anti fat bigotry and trying to get somebody to lose weight so they don't suffer from serious comorbidities to obesity (which *do* exist) is not such a bad thing. If you want to lump in something harmful like a fad diet with a genuine concern for somebody like Vickie's brother *who is now dead* that is fine, but it's not always the case.

Diabetes is not a joke. It's a potentially *fatal disease* that if it does not kill you can rob you of your sight or your limbs. That is a medical fact and it's been stated by Vickie who is a trained medical professional and certainly not an anti-fat bigot.

Does it make sense that the reason for the theme of the NAAFA convention to be "Health At Any Size" is because good health actually matters? Candidly it sickened me to see the abuse that Carla took for assembling the program because some people went ballistic over the mere mention of health.

There are many active posters on here such as Jon Blaze and EtobicokeFA who are major proponents of HAES. It's a good idea, really.


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## Jon Blaze (Apr 28, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> You know why? Because not being healthy is a bad thing.
> 
> Does somebody have the "right" to be unhealthy? Yes.
> Is it rude to badger somebody who has asked that the subject of health not be brought up? Yes.
> ...



WHAT? THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED? *Headdesk* *Headdesk* and more headdesk....:doh:

Though the morality of health is kind of taken out of the whole of concept of HAES. Either way, it does concern me that someone would receive punishment like that.


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## olwen (Apr 28, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> You know why? Because not being healthy is a bad thing.
> 
> Does somebody have the "right" to be unhealthy? Yes.
> Is it rude to badger somebody who has asked that the subject of health not be brought up? Yes.
> ...



If a person knows loosing weight will ease their sleep apnea or their diabetes or their joint pain, then they should try to loose the weight. If that will improve one's life then one should do it.

But just so you know, the reason we would get upset or uppity about such "concern" is that said "concern" whether well meaning or not is the justification for fat prejudice. Everybody has an opinion about fat people's health. Somehow our health, our weight, our fat is everybody's business. How many of those everybodies are moralizing the state of our health? We're told all our lives that we're walking ticking time bombs of pure unbridled death that will spill out and infect legions of the unlucky bastards who happen to come into contact with us. We get a little sensitive about that whether it's true or not.

We're told we shouldn't be fat because it's unhealthy, but you and I know that isn't always the case. It may be for some, but not all. I've said it before and I'll say it again - lumping all fat people into this mystical "risk" category is counter productive to good health for all because it prevents the medical community from looking for other causes to some health problems and it raises the anxiety levels of everybody, not just fat people, which can't be good for anybody's health. They _know _correlation does not equal causation (it's one of the reasons we have the scientific method to work from), but that's not what they practice and it isn't what they preach. 

People who don't know shit about loosing weight or rather loosing hundreds of pounds and gaining them back - complications or no - will still chime in with their *unsolicited *advice. The average person doesn't think a fad diet is harmful. The average person thinks starving yourself is the way to loose weight or that there's some magic pill or special food and tada - Poof - Instant thin. This is a problem.

Have you ever had complete strangers come up to you while you're eating (no matter what it is) and say things like "you shouldn't be eating that. It's bad for your health." I could be eating a big bowl of salad and someone will still tell me I'm eating too much food. WTF?! What the fuck do they know about my health? They don't know if I have a medical condition or allergies or if I'm training for an activity or what. But they do it anyway. This is a problem. 

The messages about fat being unhealthy are harmful, not because this is something us fatties might not want to hear and that might actually be true in some cases, but because of how the message is being used. It becomes propaganda for industries who want to capitalize on people's fears. This does nothing to improve health. The message only gets buried in mixed messages that become heard so many times that no one can ever remember what it was like before the message. It's like the telephone game. This is a problem. 

Maybe if the damnable harmful rhetoric about fat being evil were to quiet down a little the messages coming out of Health At Every Size would actually be heard.


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## Miss Vickie (Apr 28, 2008)

I think there *has* to be some middle ground here. Doesn't it seem like it? I mean, to be able to discuss your concerns with a loved one and maybe give them whatever support they may need, in a way that's helpful to them, seems like a good thing. Doesn't it seem like that is a whole world apart than going up to a perfect stranger and saying, "Hey, fattie! Yeah, YOU! Put down the goddamn cake."

Ultimately, yes, we're all responsible for our own decisions. However, few of us are total social "islands" where our decisions don't impact anyone. My father continued to smoke after his heart attacks, despite being told not to, and he left me an orphan at the age of 12. Now sure, it was his right to do whatever he wanted; however, his decision to do that meant that he died early, which left me in the hands of a family friend who molested me, left me in the care of a brother who threatened me, and has caused me to spend lots of money in counseling. I wish that someone had said to him, "Your daughter needs you. I know you're hurting and I know it's hard to stop smoking but please, for her sake, at least try. She NEEDS you." But nobody did. Yes, my case is extreme but I think we can agree that when each of us dies we leave a void, and those who are touched by that loss have the right -- no, the responsibility -- to express, in a sensitive way, their loving and supportive concern.

Olwen, I'm totally with you about correlation not equaling causation; however, we KNOW that excess weight puts more stress on the heart, the liver, and the pancreas and most of the systems of the body. How much and whether we can survive it is obviously an individual thing and there are lots of people who are fat and healthy. I completely agree with you that strangers or acquaintances feeling compelled to share their opinion about what you're eating is wrong, just as it's wrong to yell at a smoker. But I think this is a different thing than a friend or loved one, in a loving way, expressing concern and care.

Thanks to those of you who have sent me messages of condolences about my brother. I'm overwhelmed with gratitude and thanks. It's a tough time for me and my family but knowing that I have people who care means a lot.


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## ripley (Apr 28, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> You know why? Because not being healthy is a bad thing.
> 
> Does somebody have the "right" to be unhealthy? Yes.
> Is it rude to badger somebody who has asked that the subject of health not be brought up? Yes.
> ...






WE GET IT. Being *very fat* is unhealthy and BAD. Happy now?


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## Jon Blaze (Apr 28, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> I think there *has* to be some middle ground here. Doesn't it seem like it? I mean, to be able to discuss your concerns with a loved one and maybe give them whatever support they may need, in a way that's helpful to them, seems like a good thing. Doesn't it seem like that is a whole world apart than going up to a perfect stranger and saying, "Hey, fattie! Yeah, YOU! Put down the goddamn cake."
> 
> Ultimately, yes, we're all responsible for our own decisions. However, few of us are total social "islands" where our decisions don't impact anyone. My father continued to smoke after his heart attacks, despite being told not to, and he left me an orphan at the age of 12. Now sure, it was his right to do whatever he wanted; however, his decision to do that meant that he died early, which left me in the hands of a family friend who molested me, left me in the care of a brother who threatened me, and has caused me to spend lots of money in counseling. I wish that someone had said to him, "Your daughter needs you. I know you're hurting and I know it's hard to stop smoking but please, for her sake, at least try. She NEEDS you." But nobody did. Yes, my case is extreme but I think we can agree that when each of us dies we leave a void, and those who are touched by that loss have the right -- no, the responsibility -- to express, in a sensitive way, their loving and supportive concern.
> 
> ...



I agree with this to an extent.

This is a lot like weight itself. It's 50 GABILLION times more important how you live than what you weigh. I think it's also 50 GABILLION times more important how you to decide to express yourself too. It's not what you say as much as it's how you say it.

The thing about it is: Is the person in question making a gap between morality and health? There should be little to no mixing at all. If someone is unhealthy, and you deem that a problem, then you *constructively* find a means to expressing yourself about it. And, like you said, it's probably best if they're close. Health isn't a moral issue, and it should never be, especially when it's based on perceptions instead of actual inquiry the majority of the time, per the messages that the media sends us.

You've got the right idea though. You're a Nurse (And you type like a good one), so I know your comments and suggestions are sound, and not U GON DIEEEEEEEEE!! Ahem...

Also you have to think about the person too. If my family were to address the issue correctly, I might consider it, but if some random person did, they're very lucky I have restraint. :bow:

So overall: Yes. 

(Oh, and check my post titled "Take heart." Yes the degree might matter [Any statistical extreme is not good for ones health, some exceptions apply], BUT the pressure isn't always a bad thing, especially when you couple it with healthy living. )


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## butch (Apr 28, 2008)

olwen said:


> If a person knows loosing weight will ease their sleep apnea or their diabetes or their joint pain, then they should try to loose the weight. If that will improve one's life then one should do it.
> 
> But just so you know, the reason we would get upset or uppity about such "concern" is that said "concern" whether well meaning or not is the justification for fat prejudice. Everybody has an opinion about fat people's health. Somehow our health, our weight, our fat is everybody's business. How many of those everybodies are moralizing the state of our health? We're told all our lives that we're walking ticking time bombs of pure unbridled death that will spill out and infect legions of the unlucky bastards who happen to come into contact with us. We get a little sensitive about that whether it's true or not.
> 
> ...



olwen, I wish I could rep you, but the machine, and the rep, and the other thing, it will not let me.

All I can do is tell you that I think I'm going to start worshipping you if you keep it up with these posts. They're divine.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 29, 2008)

ripley said:


> WE GET IT. Being *very fat* is unhealthy and BAD. Happy now?



That was not what I said. I said having diabetes was unhealthy.

I have a family history of diabetes. My grandmother's doctor did not allow her to cut her own toenails because of fear that if she got an ingrown toenail  her diabetes would not allow it to heal and she'd wind up with an amputation. I dated somebody with diabetes, it's _frightening_ to watch somebody be like 5 minutes away from slipping into a coma. My point is that this stuff is REAL.

Saying that heart disease and diabetes and high blood pressure are serious illnesses is not the same thing as saying all fat people have them. And worrying about somebody's health is not about bigotry, it's about saying "Gosh Grandma, it sure would be good if you didn't have to lose one of your LEGS because you got an ingrown toenail."

The human body does not care about Size Acceptance or bigotry. If it malfunctions it will do so regardless of attitude.


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## Surlysomething (Apr 29, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> That was not what I said. I said having diabetes was unhealthy.
> 
> I have a family history of diabetes. My grandmother's doctor did not allow her to cut her own toenails because of fear that if she got an ingrown toenail  her diabetes would not allow it to heal and she'd wind up with an amputation. I dated somebody with diabetes, it's _frightening_ to watch somebody be like 5 minutes away from slipping into a coma. My point is that this stuff is REAL.
> 
> ...



You can be diabetic and still be healthy. You're probably a hell of a lot healthier if you're taking care of your diabetes than the average person is.

Blessing and a curse for some people in all honesty. If you want to live you have to take care of it.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 29, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> You can be diabetic and still be healthy. You're probably a hell of a lot healthier if you're taking care of your diabetes than the average person is.
> 
> Blessing and a curse for some people in all honesty. If you want to live you have to take care of it.



My point was not to make this a discussion about diabetes. 

For what it's worth, the man I dated with diabetes was Type 1 (born with it) and very slender, probably 150 pounds. He did everything he was supposed to do but sometimes it got the better of him.

My only point is that concern over health does not always equal bigotry.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 29, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> My point was not to make this a discussion about diabetes.
> 
> For what it's worth, the man I dated with diabetes was Type 1 (born with it) and very slender, probably 150 pounds. He did everything he was supposed to do but sometimes it got the better of him.
> 
> My only point is that concern over health does not always equal bigotry.



We all get that, LoveBHMS. Believe me, we do. How about you set that hammer down? You've driven the point home quite soundly.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 29, 2008)

I get it. I'm fat - I'm unhealthy. BAD FAT GIRL!!! 

You know what's interesting - my Doctor, who deals with patients with health issues all day everyday tells me diabetes and HBP are things fat and thin people get, and live long happy lives with. Imagine that.:doh:




LoveBHMS said:


> That was not what I said. I said having diabetes was unhealthy.
> 
> I have a family history of diabetes. My grandmother's doctor did not allow her to cut her own toenails because of fear that if she got an ingrown toenail  her diabetes would not allow it to heal and she'd wind up with an amputation. I dated somebody with diabetes, it's _frightening_ to watch somebody be like 5 minutes away from slipping into a coma. My point is that this stuff is REAL.
> 
> ...


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## Surlysomething (Apr 29, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> My point was not to make this a discussion about diabetes.



Oh well, it was brought up and i'm diabetic so I thought I would throw my two cents in.

"Discussion"


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 29, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I get it. I'm fat - I'm unhealthy. BAD FAT GIRL!!!
> 
> You know what's interesting - my Doctor, who deals with patients with health issues all day everyday tells me diabetes and HBP are things fat and thin people get, and live long happy lives with. Imagine that.:doh:



Did you read what i wrote? 

I dated somebody who weighed 150 pounds and had diabetes. 

It's not a value judgement.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 29, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> Did you read what i wrote?
> 
> I dated somebody who weighed 150 pounds and had diabetes.
> 
> It's not a value judgement.




Yes, I did read your point, over and over and over again.


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## LostPro (Apr 29, 2008)

Okay speaking from a perspective of weightloss (And i know a lot of you don't support this) but this is a interesting subject. WLS is effective, but how does that make you proud? You only do it for your sensation in being skinny. A realization that you are fat is the first step to weightloss no matter what the task is. lol for you WLS activist on this board, do not worry i do support it under certain circumstances, and running out of diets is not a circumstance. Secondly, People are Fat because that is who they are. I don't know why people think its an abnormality. Thirdly Be proud of who you are and don't let anyone else make your decisions. Of course make a wise decision at that. No matter what size you are, no matter how you look you are beautiful. Last but not least, keep your goals realistic. "As long as your healthy" is a term used a lot, and to me its not insulting because i get told that all the time, and I'm skinny. But to a fat person i guess it might be taken differently. But its like saying the N word to somebody of some ethnic race, its taken differently if other people say it. But it is the same concept.


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## olwen (Apr 29, 2008)

butch said:


> olwen, I wish I could rep you, but the machine, and the rep, and the other thing, it will not let me.
> 
> All I can do is tell you that I think I'm going to start worshipping you if you keep it up with these posts. They're divine.



 Cool, Thanks. 



LoveBHMS said:


> My point was not to make this a discussion about diabetes.
> 
> For what it's worth, the man I dated with diabetes was Type 1 (born with it) and very slender, probably 150 pounds. He did everything he was supposed to do but sometimes it got the better of him.
> 
> My only point is that concern over health does not always equal bigotry.



OMG Love, why didn't you just say that in the first place? Yeesh.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Apr 29, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> You can be diabetic and still be healthy. You're probably a hell of a lot healthier if you're taking care of your diabetes than the average person is.
> 
> Blessing and a curse for some people in all honesty. If you want to live you have to take care of it.



My ex-husband is a Type I juvenile onset diabetic. He has actually been UNDERweight most of his life. 
Fattie here has yet to get diabetes- your weight doesn't necessarily damn you- or protect you.


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## ripley (Apr 29, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> My point was not to make this a discussion about diabetes.
> 
> For what it's worth, the man I dated with diabetes was Type 1 (born with it) and very slender, probably 150 pounds. He did everything he was supposed to do but sometimes it got the better of him.
> 
> My only point is that concern over health does not always equal bigotry.





I know bigotry when I see it, thanks.


I never said that "as long as you're healthy" is always said from a point of bigotry. I know that for some it comes from concern. I also know that for some it's the things that I said in my first post. 

Believe it or not, but health issues aren't only the venue of fat people. People who do everything "right" still get diseases.


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## SummerG (Apr 29, 2008)

IMO, the whole "as long as you're healthy" line is completely loaded. Also, I don't care how I know you. Family, friends, co-workers... the answer is the same. My health, and my body are not your business unless I outright ask you something regarding it. You want to show someone you love them and care about them, you tell them "I Love you, I care about you" You don't drop backhanded masked comments. 

I really think the whole defense of genuine concern to be just another thing we've been brainwashed to believe. Maybe we still hold onto the notion we've been fed since childhood that we don't deserve to be treated with respect for our physical "shortcomings". To that a big F*U 

Unless of course the person has been living under a rock and isn't aware of all the possibilities that fat could cause health problems, then, by all means... school them.


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## EtobicokeFA (Apr 29, 2008)

SummerG said:


> IMO, the whole "as long as you're healthy" line is completely loaded. Also, I don't care how I know you. Family, friends, co-workers... the answer is the same. My health, and my body are not your business unless I outright ask you something regarding it. You want to show someone you love them and care about them, you tell them "I Love you, I care about you" You don't drop backhanded masked comments.
> 
> I really think the whole defense of genuine concern to be just another thing we've been brainwashed to believe. Maybe we still hold onto the notion we've been fed since childhood that we don't deserve to be treated with respect for our physical "shortcomings". To that a big F*U
> 
> Unless of course the person has been living under a rock and isn't aware of all the possibilities that fat could cause health problems, then, by all means... school them.



The biggest issue with the "as long as you're healthy" line is that they think they decide the criteria for being "healthy".


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## liz (di-va) (Apr 29, 2008)

ripley said:


> I know bigotry when I see it, thanks.
> I never said that "as long as you're healthy" is always said from a point of bigotry. I know that for some it comes from concern. I also know that for some it's the things that I said in my first post.
> Believe it or not, but health issues aren't only the venue of fat people. People who do everything "right" still get diseases.



Testify...seriously.

I've seen people younger than I die suddenly, thin and fat, I've seen people grow ancient with bad habits and good.

This is a site for fat people and those who like 'em and about improving the quality of life thereof.

I'm tired of threads--here--where the subtext becomes the right to exist as a fattie. Or more tired retreads of how we all could be losing weight when if NOTHING else is clear from this site that is a complicated idea and not always possible. That idea should be understood and not have to be defended from the beginning every single time.

The question now and always is what can _we_ do to improve the quality of life for _ourselves_ NOW, and that includes mental and emotional health as well as physical, as Sandie pointed out a bizillion posts ago.

Having to defend ourselves here from people who need to jump in at every turn to point out the obvious...isn't a help. Doesn't build goodness. It just wears people out.

If you're uncomfortable with fat people's right to exist, _right now_--as evil architects of their own demise--hapless uneducated saps who don't understand how they're killing themselves--well-intended but hopelessly misguided idealists--whatever krazy krap it is you're thinking....ya shouldn't be on this site to begin with. That, in fact, is how the rest of the world thinks. So why be here at all?


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## olwen (Apr 30, 2008)

Thank you Liz. I rep you.


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## Raqui (Apr 30, 2008)

Yes I think I am going to start telling people that also. Oh yeah you can stay slim as long as you healthy. LOL OH MY GOD


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## LillyBBBW (Apr 30, 2008)

liz (di-va) said:


> <snipped>........If you're uncomfortable with fat people's right to exist, _right now_--as evil architects of their own demise--hapless uneducated saps who don't understand how they're killing themselves--well-intended but hopelessly misguided idealists--whatever krazy krap it is you're thinking....ya shouldn't be on this site to begin with. That, in fact, is how the rest of the world thinks. So why be here at all?



I have to spread some around, bla bla bla.


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## butch (Apr 30, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> I have to spread some around, bla bla bla.



Me, too. So Unfair!


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## Van (Apr 30, 2008)

This thread has shown me that it does not matter what size you are big or small, just take care of yourself period.


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## Tina (Apr 30, 2008)

Got Liz for youse.


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## spaz-fa (Apr 30, 2008)

I just saw this thread and thought that i'd mention that my wife who has gained over a hundred pounds since i've met her had a couple health problems mainly asthma before we met. After putting on the weight she has felt much better her asthma went away, and she has not had any health issues since. Just goes to show that there are two sides to the "as long as your healthy argument" her mother uses, she corrects her all the time.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 1, 2008)

yup, yup, yup and yup!! I love this post! Thanks Liz!





liz (di-va) said:


> Testify...seriously.
> 
> I've seen people younger than I die suddenly, thin and fat, I've seen people grow ancient with bad habits and good.
> 
> ...


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## liz (di-va) (May 1, 2008)

Thank you very much reppers, I appreciate it.



Van said:


> This thread has shown me that it does not matter what size you are big or small, just take care of yourself period.



I'd say this sums it up!


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## Van (May 2, 2008)

Yeah. Healthy is not just a state of being. It is a lifestyle. That is the way everyone should live. Size is just what it is size. We are supposed to take care of ourselves no matter what.


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## Miss Vickie (May 2, 2008)

Van said:


> Yeah. Healthy is not just a state of being. It is a lifestyle. That is the way everyone should live. Size is just what it is size. We are supposed to take care of ourselves no matter what.



I agree. Which is why we shouldn't necessarily conclude that a loved one or friend expresses concern for our health. If they see us NOT taking care of ourselves, I think it's their responsibility to tell us, in a loving way, without nagging, that they're concerned. Fat doesn't necessarily mean unhealthy, but it also doesn't necessarily mean healthy, either. And in the presence of certain diseases it can add an element or risk to an already bad situation. 

But definitely, nobody should be "picked on" or treated in any way but with dignity and respect. Even those engaging in the worst behavior (and I work with them) deserve respect and care.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 2, 2008)

I disagree completely Vickie - because I've been in this situation too many times in my life. Oh I've had the *oh so concerned family member* sit me down to tell me much they love me and were so sure I was:

Gonna die before I reached - 25 - 30 - 40 (holy cow how did I reach 47!)

Never going to get a date - let alone get married (OMG - I'm married 15 years now)

Would never have a good job (I own my own business)

Etc - etc - etc.

I got to the point of just teling people to shut the fuck up! We're talking people who smoked 3 packs a day or were drunks. I just had enough of it.

So - no I don't think people do it out of concern. Ever.



Miss Vickie said:


> I agree. Which is why we shouldn't necessarily conclude that a loved one or friend expresses concern for our health. If they see us NOT taking care of ourselves, I think it's their responsibility to tell us, in a loving way, without nagging, that they're concerned. Fat doesn't necessarily mean unhealthy, but it also doesn't necessarily mean healthy, either. And in the presence of certain diseases it can add an element or risk to an already bad situation.
> 
> But definitely, nobody should be "picked on" or treated in any way but with dignity and respect. Even those engaging in the worst behavior (and I work with them) deserve respect and care.


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## Waxwing (May 2, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I disagree completely Vickie - because I've been in this situation too many times in my life. Oh I've had the *oh so concerned family member* sit me down to tell me much they love me and were so sure I was:
> 
> Gonna die before I reached - 25 - 30 - 40 (holy cow how did I reach 47!)
> 
> ...



I wholly agree that there are many people who use the umbrella term of "concern" as a way to gloat and be assholes. My whole extended family was like that. They used to put me on the "prayer chain" because they were just concerned! Except no, it was morbid curiosity and I was the weird one. It's like entertainment for them. "Oh that's so unfortunate" really means "oh tell me more so I can gloat."

But I just don't think that everyone is this way. In fact *I know *not everyone is this way. What's horrible is that those people have ruined it for those of us who really do have concern for our loved ones and who aren't there to judge.


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## Miss Vickie (May 2, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> But I just don't think that everyone is this way. In fact *I know *not everyone is this way. What's horrible is that those people have ruined it for those of us who really do have concern for our loved ones and who aren't there to judge.



Totally, I agree completely. It's very possible that lots of us are caring and concerned and are trying to word things in a sensitive way, but it doesn't help when those who have come before us are insensitive or cruel. However, that doesn't mean that everyone is. 

It's not really much different than me as a nurse expressing professional concern to my patient who is addicted to drugs or drinking alcohol during her pregnancy and hence pickling her baby's brain. Just because she may have had 100 other nurses, doctors and midwives talk to her in a disrespectful or judgmental tone does NOT mean that a) I'm off the hook and should keep my mouth shut (and yeah it feels like a "hook" because I *HATE *having to have those talks with people); nor does it mean that b) I'm just like those other 100 people and don't have good intentions or sensitivity about the subject. I'm me, and know what my intentions are, and I know the difference when I'm on the receiving end as well. OTOH, when people feel berated they're definitely not open to hearing anything on the subject, regardless of how carefully things are broached or discussed, or how well intentioned the person is.

Sandie I'm really sad that people have been so awful to you when it comes to discussing your health. I really hope that you have nothing but positive experiences from now on, and that when people do care about you and are on your side and maybe express their concern, that you can give them just a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. OTOH, if they're fat phobic assholes -- let 'em have it!


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## TraciJo67 (May 2, 2008)

Sandie, don't you think that your relationship with the person determines how you are going to receive the message? If Wayne expressed concern about your health, would you think that *he* was doing so to be unkind? I think you'd be less apt to dismiss it as criticism or judgment veiled in expressions of concern, in that case ... because you know that Wayne has only good intentions towards you.

Same goes for how I feel about my own family, and how they've attempted to intervene in matters related to my health over the years. I know that they weren't being unkind. I know it, because I know my family (and I have a great relationship with my siblings and with my mother/grandmother).


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## Waxwing (May 2, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> OTOH, when people feel berated they're definitely not open to hearing anything on the subject, regardless of how carefully things are broached or discussed, or how well intentioned the person is.



And that's the hardest part of it. I can't imagine having to have those conversations with people. There is such an infinitesimal line between concern and judgment. 

I think there's also a threshold people reach where no amount of sensitivity can make it seem like anything but an insult. I have periods in which I drink a lot. During these phases, people who care about me will mention it, often in the most innocuous possible way ("hey, just want to make sure you're ok"). My visceral reaction is to be pissed off -- it's none of your fucking business! But I have to shelve that in favor of understanding that it's my well-being that concerns them, not making me feel bad about myself. 

And I may know without question that I'm ok, but other people's perception is important too. If they think I'm NOT ok, I will try to reassure them.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 2, 2008)

Do I really think all people are like my family?

Do I really have to answer that?? LOL

In short --- YES!

There are 2 people and ONLY 2 people in this world I trust enough to say - 
No their concern would not make me bristle. Wayne (of course and Paul D.) Wayne because over 15 years he has never, ever done anything that was not out of love and/or concern for me. And Paul - because ditto what I said about Wayne,

Everyone else, I don't have the time or the energy or the inclination to listen to anything they have to say about my health. Period. I've taken enough shit over the years and - *ding* I'm done.

I have no communication with anyone in my family, and that is just fine by me. A sicker group of people would be hard to find. And - yes - they soured me on people who tell me they love me. I don't believe those words readilly. Like I said there are only 2 people who have ever said those words to me and meant it (IMHO) - one out of pure love and commitment to me and one out of a deep mutual friendship. 

But I digress. My feelings about "I love you" are for another day and subject.


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## olwen (May 2, 2008)

I just have a problem with this whole concept of if a person "loves" you they have a responsibility to express "concern." One of my best friends is an alchoholic. Has been for years. I have actually tried to tell him how his drinking affects me to the point where I dread that phone call from his sister telling me he's dead from alcohol abuse related problems. I've tried to tell him this in many ways. Then one day I realized that no matter what I say he's going to keep drinking and the best thing for me and everyone else he knows and hopefully for him as well is to just cut him out of our lives. I just don't have it in me anymore to babysit a drunk. I am not his keeper. 

While it is painful to watch the people you love suffer thru health conditions that they don't take care of and painful for you to have to deal with it, in the end, you are responsible for you and I am responsible for me. There just isn't a gentle way to say, "Hey you're an asshead for putting everybody thru your fucking bullshit," because something so painful just can't be taken easily. It's just too personal an issue. I just feel like trying to express that concern by "loving" ("Loving concern" could be anything from coersion to gentle talking to dirty tricks to out an out ultimatums.) means is a way for someone to take away someone else's free will. I just have a problem with that. I have the ability to walk away no matter what the situation is - if I am strong enough.


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## Waxwing (May 2, 2008)

olwen said:


> I just have a problem with this whole concept of if a person "loves" you they have a responsibility to express "concern." One of my best friends is an alchoholic. Has been for years. I have actually tried to tell him how his drinking affects me to the point where I dread that phone call from his sister telling me he's dead from alcohol abuse related problems. I've tried to tell him this in many ways. Then one day I realized that no matter what I say he's going to keep drinking and the best thing for me and everyone else he knows and hopefully for him as well is to just cut him out of our lives. I just don't have it in me anymore to babysit a drunk. I am not his keeper.
> 
> While it is painful to watch the people you love suffer thru health conditions that they don't take care of and painful for you to have to deal with it, in the end, you are responsible for you and I am responsible for me. There just isn't a gentle way to say, "Hey you're an asshead for putting everybody thru your fucking bullshit," because something so painful just can't be taken easily. It's just too personal an issue. I just feel like trying to express that concern by "loving" ("Loving concern" could be anything from coersion to gentle talking to dirty tricks to out an out ultimatums.) means is a way for someone to take away someone else's free will. I just have a problem with that. I have the ability to walk away no matter what the situation is - if I am strong enough.



But there's a difference between spending all of your emotional energy on someone who has chosen something that will hurt them, and making a comment about wanting a loved one to be well. 

Free will is paramount, but when we choose to live in society and to form close relationships with other humans, we in a sense relegate ourselves to a certain amount of intrusion from those people. 

There is certainly a point at which all of your good intentions amount to nothing more than stress, but when we love, we also want the subject of that love to be well. And that's an instinctive thing.


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## LoveBHMS (May 2, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> But there's a difference between spending all of your emotional energy on someone who has chosen something that will hurt them, and making a comment about wanting a loved one to be well.
> 
> Free will is paramount, but when we choose to live in society and to form close relationships with other humans, we in a sense relegate ourselves to a certain amount of intrusion from those people.
> 
> There is certainly a point at which all of your good intentions amount to nothing more than stress, but when we love, we also want the subject of that love to be well. And that's an instinctive thing.



Waxwing is right. In a sense, that 'intrusion' is the price you pay for interacting with the world around you.

It's asking an awful lot for your friend to say "Listen, i'm going to slowly drink myself to death. What i need you to do is just be my friend whenever I ask. If you become annoyed or stressed or angry or frustrated by watching this, well, just shut up. But still be my friend when i decided i'd like to have a friend."

And a word about being judgemental. Everyone judges others' behaviour. Even if you don't voice it, and even if you think "I think that's wrong but that person's behaviour is his or her choice" you are still going to have opinions about it. By virtue of being human, we all create our own set of values and our own worldview.


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## olwen (May 2, 2008)

Yes, one would still have opinions about it, of course one would, but I quess what I'm getting at is that it's just easier and better to keep them to oneself, especially if the chances are high that expressing concern is futile _and _ it doesn't make anybody feel better. I'm just sensitive to that.


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## Waxwing (May 2, 2008)

olwen said:


> Yes, one would still have opinions about it, of course one would, but I quess what I'm getting at is that it's just easier and better to keep them to oneself, especially if the chances are high that expressing concern is futile _and _ it doesn't make anybody feel better. I'm just sensitive to that.



But how do you know when it's "futile" or when it's unwanted?


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## olwen (May 2, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> But how do you know when it's "futile" or when it's unwanted?



I just always err on the side of caution and assume it would be futile. If it's a veiled attempt at an actual cry for help or attention I'd be really annoyed at this person who doesn't have the sense to face reality and the inner strength to do something about it head on. I'm not responsible for building anybody's inner reserves, it takes all I have to build my own. Now if I was asked, "hey can you help me get thru this difficult thing? will you support me?" then I would help, but I'm just not gonna badger anybody about it for them. It's just not my place to do that. It's like I said. I am nobody's keeper.


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## ripley (May 2, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> But how do you know when it's "futile" or when it's unwanted?



Say that every single time someone says "as long as you're healthy" that it is from a place of love and concern. Just for a hypothetical situation we'll take that as a given.

My question is: What do they think will result? Do they think I don't know that I am fat? Do they think that just a heads-up from them will miraculously cause me to change habits of thirty years or more? Do they think I am so stupid that I don't know...that SOMEHOW I've missed years of television coverage and messages from doctors and politicians and my own mother? Is it _really_ about me, or is it more about them and their unwillingness to not condemn? Not to somehow, not so subtly, let me know that they do not approve and know better?



Hypothetical situation over, I'll just say that it's a rude, condescending, patronizing comment to make to someone. You love someone, and care about their health? We ALL do. Nagging will not help. You are not bringing up one thing we do not already know (probably far better than the person who nags). We all care about our own health too. I can't not be fat. I tried for years and years and years, much to the detriment to my health that people say they are so concerned about. I don't try anymore. I try to move around as much as I can. I try to get fruits and veggies and whole grains. I'm done defending my right to exist as an autonomous person.


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## ripley (May 2, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> And a word about being judgemental. Everyone judges others' behaviour. Even if you don't voice it, and even if you think "I think that's wrong but that person's behaviour is his or her choice" you are still going to have opinions about it. By virtue of being human, we all create our own set of values and our own worldview.



Yes, people judge others. It's the fools who think it's their right to trumpet it without any censure from others that amaze me. Or the ones who think it's A-OK to join the NAACP and then get caught on hidden camera slinging racial epithets. 

You know who I judge? Hypocrites. Especially anti-fat ones.


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## LillyBBBW (May 2, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> Waxwing is right. In a sense, that 'intrusion' is the price you pay for interacting with the world around you.
> 
> It's asking an awful lot for your friend to say "Listen, i'm going to slowly drink myself to death. What i need you to do is just be my friend whenever I ask. If you become annoyed or stressed or angry or frustrated by watching this, well, just shut up. But still be my friend when i decided i'd like to have a friend."
> 
> And a word about being judgemental. Everyone judges others' behaviour. Even if you don't voice it, and even if you think "I think that's wrong but that person's behaviour is his or her choice" you are still going to have opinions about it. By virtue of being human, we all create our own set of values and our own worldview.



The assumption that you can somehow fix or save your friends is not sound. No expert on human behavior or addictions would endorse a person's desire to badger a drunk to quit drinking. You lecture them and they will distance themselves from you because you're irritating and it will be counter productive. Unfortunately many tmes a person has to hit rock bottom before they will snap out of it. It's no fun to watch but you litterally can't do anything to help them. Continuing a toxic relationship with that person either through enabling or electing yourself as their savior makes you nearly as bad as they are and YOU are now the one who needs to regain self control. No one is trying to strip anyone of the right to have an opinion. What we're trying to convey is that constant harassment will merely cause a person to withdraw deeper into whatever it is you want them to come out of. Do you really believe that constantly telling a hard core addict that drugs are terrible is going to affect anything positive?


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## Frankie (May 3, 2008)

I guess I haven't been handing out enough rep because I am unable to rep you, ripley. :kiss2:


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## SummerG (May 3, 2008)

ripley said:


> Yes, people judge others. It's the fools who think it's their right to trumpet it without any censure from others that amaze me. Or the ones who think it's A-OK to join the NAACP and then get caught on hidden camera slinging racial epithets.
> 
> You know who I judge? Hypocrites. Especially anti-fat ones.



Quoted for truth. And also because I can't rep ya again yet


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## LoveBHMS (May 3, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> The assumption that you can somehow fix or save your friends is not sound. No expert on human behavior or addictions would endorse a person's desire to badger a drunk to quit drinking. You lecture them and they will distance themselves from you because you're irritating and it will be counter productive. Unfortunately many tmes a person has to hit rock bottom before they will snap out of it. It's no fun to watch but you litterally can't do anything to help them. Continuing a toxic relationship with that person either through enabling or electing yourself as their savior makes you nearly as bad as they are and YOU are now the one who needs to regain self control. No one is trying to strip anyone of the right to have an opinion. What we're trying to convey is that constant harassment will merely cause a person to withdraw deeper into whatever it is you want them to come out of. Do you really believe that constantly telling a hard core addict that drugs are terrible is going to affect anything positive?



You're right. I didn't mean that Olwen could in any way fix her friend's alcohol problem, but that if her friend was hurt or annoyed or irritated by her pleas or by her fright over getting a phone call that he'd died, that hurt and irritation was the price he paid for having her as a friend. I wasn't suggesting harassment, but might it also not be true that in some cases interventions *do* work? Or that somebody might wind up sitting in a narcotics anonymous meeting saying "I finally came here b/c my friend would have nothing more to do with me"?

And I could not agree more that showing a lack of respect for others' privacy rarely turns out well.


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## LillyBBBW (May 3, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> You're right. I didn't mean that Olwen could in any way fix her friend's alcohol problem, but that if her friend was hurt or annoyed or irritated by her pleas or by her fright over getting a phone call that he'd died, that hurt and irritation was the price he paid for having her as a friend. I wasn't suggesting harassment, but might it also not be true that in some cases interventions *do* work? Or that somebody might wind up sitting in a narcotics anonymous meeting saying "I finally came here b/c my friend would have nothing more to do with me"?
> 
> And I could not agree more that showing a lack of respect for others' privacy rarely turns out well.



The rare instances are when children are involved. The person sees their child immitating their behavior or they have some kind of conversation with the child that shakes them to their core. Otherwise the odds on favorite is, "I lost my wife, I lost my job, I lost my friends, my kids won't see me, the only people interested in me are the cops and I took a look in the mirror and saw sombody I didn't know and I didn't like." It's usually something that forces them to take a good hard look at black and white reality with the sugar coating finally gone. Interventions are very hard to pull off on an adult. It is not easy to have someone commited and rehab facilities won't take anyone against their will unless it's by a court order, and they can't detain anyone who wants to leave. They no longer practice interventions too much anymore because they know that interventions don't work. It's a waste of time and taxpayer money when the bed can be used by somebody else who really wants to turn around. They still do it with young people because the parents have control and it is believed they have a bit more promise because of their youth, but once they become an adult it is near impossible. 

My point is, there is rarely an instance where intervention is helpful. I can understand a person's desire to want very badly to help somebody that they feel is harming themself. I can't agree that it's ok to do something that will worsen matters though. I think it's fair to tell someone you are concerned and why. Only once though. After that you have do decide if you want to stay or go. Many times the person will make the decision for you. They don't have to accept badgering as their due and most wont.

EDIT: Just an FYI. When an addict appears at a hospital or rehab facility and says they want to check in, even if there are beds available the institution will turn them away and tell them to come back in 24 hours. If they return in that time it means they are sincere and arrangements are made for them.


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## Michelle (May 3, 2008)

LovesBHMs (and LoveDubh) - you ought to stop while you're ahead. You have ZERO credibility in a thread like this. A great deal of us have either read or heard about the PM transcript of the two of you being extremely nasty about very fat women. I'm barely a member of this community anymore and I know about it. 

I believe in one place you said that if a woman was "that fat" she should be automatically redirected to the WLS board. So regardless of my opinion on this subject and what you have said, I really think you have a lot of nerve posting here. There have been some veiled references here about your words in that PM exchange. I say, just get it out in the open. I truly question the reason you're here.


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## TraciJo67 (May 3, 2008)

Privacy, and the right to it:

I'd be quite justifiably angry if someone meandered into my password-protected blog, took a gander at my personal feelings on display, and then shared them with everyone in sight. That would be a violation of my privacy. 

But if I took segments of my own blog (coz, let's say, I thought it was extremely clever and funny ) and then forwarded them to other people, including perhaps people that I didn't MEAN to forward this information to ... I've then lost any right to a claim of privacy.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 3, 2008)

Privacy on the Internet. Interesting concept but password protected or not - there is no such thing. I learned that a few years ago on another Size Acceptance board when some very personal information - that I mistakenly thought was a place which was "safe" for me to post about such things - that info was taken by another poster, put on her blog and she disected my personal issues.

If you put it on the Internet - somebody may take it. That's reality.

And IF (and I don't know this for sure) some women who post here are saying such offensive things about the fat women here - I wonder too, why are they here?? 




TraciJo67 said:


> Privacy, and the right to it:
> 
> I'd be quite justifiably angry if someone meandered into my password-protected blog, took a gander at my personal feelings on display, and then shared them with everyone in sight. That would be a violation of my privacy.
> 
> But if I took segments of my own blog (coz, let's say, I thought it was extremely clever and funny ) and then forwarded them to other people, including perhaps people that I didn't MEAN to forward this information to ... I've then lost any right to a claim of privacy.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> You're right. I didn't mean that Olwen could in any way fix her friend's alcohol problem, but that if her friend was hurt or annoyed or irritated by her pleas or by her fright over getting a phone call that he'd died, that hurt and irritation was the price he paid for having her as a friend. I wasn't suggesting harassment, but might it also not be true that in some cases interventions *do* work? Or that somebody might wind up sitting in a narcotics anonymous meeting saying "I finally came here b/c my friend would have nothing more to do with me"?
> 
> And I could not agree more that showing a lack of respect for others' privacy rarely turns out well.



No, interventions do not work. The addict whatever kind of addict it is has to hit rock bottom (whatever it is to them) before they decide to get clean. The addict knows they are addicted and no amount of cajoling, reasoning, pleading, threating from you will change the fact that he/she knows they should do something about it. This reasoning holds true for any person with bad health habits - whatever they are. Do their bad habits affect you? Maybe, maybe not (you can choose whether or not you let their habits affect you, you know), but for the sake of your own sanity and out of respect for the other person, it's just better to keep your mouth shut and to walk away.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 3, 2008)

And most addicts will backslide more than once. IMHO - everyoe is addicted to something. Whether or not you get or need help for your addiction is totally up to you.

Are we now equating fat with a food addiction? Because while I agree some people do have food addictions (I believe I fit into that catagory) I don't believe it is faire to say that about all fat people.

I'm just wondering where this conversation is going. 




olwen said:


> No, interventions do not work. The addict whatever kind of addict it is has to hit rock bottom (whatever it is to them) before they decide to get clean. The addict knows they are addicted and no amount of cajoling, reasoning, pleading, threating from you will change the fact that he/she knows they should do something about it. This reasoning holds true for any person with bad health habits - whatever they are. Do their bad habits affect you? Maybe, maybe not (you can choose whether or not you let their habits affect you, you know), but for the sake of your own sanity and out of respect for the other person, it's just better to keep your mouth shut and to walk away.


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## Miss Vickie (May 3, 2008)

olwen said:


> No, interventions do not work. The addict whatever kind of addict it is has to hit rock bottom (whatever it is to them) before they decide to get clean. The addict knows they are addicted and no amount of cajoling, reasoning, pleading, threating from you will change the fact that he/she knows they should do something about it. This reasoning holds true for any person with bad health habits - whatever they are. Do their bad habits affect you? Maybe, maybe not (you can choose whether or not you let their habits affect you, you know), but for the sake of your own sanity and out of respect for the other person, it's just better to keep your mouth shut and to walk away.



I agree with this to an extent, although you and I agree whether a loved one has the responsibility to initially bring up their concern about someone's health. I think yes, it should involve one sensitively worded conversation that comes from a place of caring and concern -- and then dropped unless the person with the health problem chooses to take up the ball and discuss it; if I understand you correctly, you disagree. I think it does NO ONE any good to keep bringing up the issue, over and over again. It just builds resentment, I think, and then eventually when the person may want help, they'll remember the nagging and probably would then go to anyone BUT the person who nagged them because they would feel judged. I know that would be true in my case. 

When I was fat I knew I was fat, I knew what it was doing to my health, and I knew when I was ready to take a drastic step to fix it. Had I not had health problems and a lack of mobility, I'd still be fat, and that would be great. But all the nagging in the world would have done nothing but probably make me dig my heels in more. When I chose to take that step it was definitely self-initiated. None of my providers had said one WORD about my weight except an offhanded comment about fatty liver disease.

Ultimately, we are all responsible for our own health, but most of us don't live isolated from others and so yes, our decisions do impact others. However, that doesn't give others the right to treat us cruelly or without respect.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

Sandie, I honestly wasn't thinking about food addiction. I haven't actually known anyone in my life with a food addiction. I have known junkies, cokeheads, alcoholics, potheads, and pillpoppers. As for bad health habits, I was thinking of smoking really - I smoke and so I have to deal with that.

ETA: FYI, I would NEVER put all fat people into the same health category EVER. The only thing you can say with 100% accuracy about all fat people is that we're fat. Period.


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## Miss Vickie (May 3, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Are we now equating fat with a food addiction? Because while I agree some people do have food addictions (I believe I fit into that catagory) I don't believe it is faire to say that about all fat people.



I agree, nor is it fair to assume that thin people DON'T have a food addiction. They were just "blessed" (depending on your point of view) with a metabolism that allows them to eat lots of food and not gain weight. OTOH, those of us who put on weight more easily will be the ones more likely to survive a famine. I also think it's unfair to assume that really thin people (especially women) are anorexic because they're thin. If we're truly to believe that every body is built differently (and I do) then we should also believe that some people are built naturally thin and not give them shit about it. (Not saying you do, Sandie, because I don't think you do but rather a general comment about some of the judgmental and assumptive comments that are sometimes made here about thin women).

And just so you know, my concern isn't really about weight but rather health. I'd make a comment to any friend who was, say, a diabetic and ate nothing but Ho Ho's or who was lactose intolerant and drank milk by the gallon and spent every day shitting their brains out. My son's best friend was diagnosed with Type I Diabetes in high school and was in and out of the hospital a number of times because he would eat crazy stuff (typical teenage stuff but poison to his system), not take his insulin, and get really sick. After his THIRD hospitalization for diabetic ketoacidosis I took him aside, with his mom's permission, and discussed some of what I'd seen in nursing school and did several hours of diabetic education, something he hadn't gotten, or at least hadn't absorbed. I both educated him and scared the hell out of him and you know what? He's been flying right ever since, and he still loves me and thinks of me as his second mom. But after that one conversation I dropped it, other than to not offer him (or my son) sweets when they were hanging out at our home.

What really chaps my hide are people who nag others about their weight or diet while at the same time encouraging them to eat junk. I see this a LOT in the families I care for, mothers nagging their daughters who have gestational diabetes and then bringing them junk food.


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## LillyBBBW (May 3, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> And most addicts will backslide more than once. IMHO - everyoe is addicted to something. Whether or not you get or need help for your addiction is totally up to you.
> 
> *Are we now equating fat with a food addiction? Because while I agree some people do have food addictions (I believe I fit into that catagory) I don't believe it is faire to say that about all fat people.*
> 
> I'm just wondering where this conversation is going.



Actually I had abandoned the idea of trying to distinguish the differences since it seemed plainly apparent the effort would be futile. I decided instead to focus on the fact that concern is a poor excuse for promoting something that is consistently proven to be counter productive, even if hypothetically speaking the behavior truly were destructive.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 3, 2008)

I'm sorry I did not mean to say that you were lumping all fat people into one catagory. I think food as an addiction could be a very interesting thread. 

But anyway - I was just rambling not making assumptions. 





olwen said:


> Sandie, I honestly wasn't thinking about food addiction. I haven't actually known anyone in my life with a food addiction. I have known junkies, cokeheads, alcoholics, potheads, and pillpoppers. As for bad health habits, I was thinking of smoking really - I smoke and so I have to deal with that.
> 
> ETA: FYI, I would NEVER put all fat people into the same health category EVER. The only thing you can say with 100% accuracy about all fat people is that we're fat. Period.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I'm sorry I did not mean to say that you were lumping all fat people into one catagory. I think food as an addiction could be a very interesting thread.
> 
> But anyway - I was just rambling not making assumptions.



I can only imagine the sort of mud slinging that would go on in that kind of thread. You should totally start one.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 3, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> What really chaps my hide are people who nag others about their weight or diet while at the same time encouraging them to eat junk. I see this a LOT in the families I care for, mothers nagging their daughters who have gestational diabetes and then bringing them junk food.




THAT is my mother to a "T".

As a teen I was over 300 lbs in high school. And while my mother was mortified by my weight and was always on my ass about losing weight she would also have the kitchen full of cookies, cake, pastries, breads, ice cream, etc., etc.

My mom was and is fat. You ask where I got my food issues and addiction - dear old mom. She would yell at me, insult me, verbally abuse me and then go to the local bakery - get some fresh cakes and danish and come home - have me sit down and eat with her. That's how I learned food helped me feel better after being abused and depressed.

Anyway - let's move on.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 3, 2008)

olwen said:


> I can only imagine the sort of mud slinging that would go on in that kind of thread. You should totally start one.



LOL - you're funny!!


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## NancyGirl74 (May 3, 2008)

FFFFFOOOOOODDDD...I need it...I crave it...I can't live without it.

Hello, I'm Nancy and I'm addicted to food.


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## LillyBBBW (May 3, 2008)

NancyGirl74 said:


> FFFFFOOOOOODDDD...I need it...I crave it...I can't live without it.
> 
> Hello, I'm Nancy and I'm addicted to food.



OMG, you too??? It's like a raging fever. I wake up in the morning and it's the *first* thing I reach for. Then at noon I'm booking it to the elevators to get food again. In the evening I'm at the home trough grazing on salsa and chips. For goodness' sake it's like an obsession. I can't stop. I pray every day that I can be normal like everyone else. All this I do while reclining of course. Wouldn't want to trouble myself to actually do anything productive.

I'll have two of what she's having.


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## Paquito (May 3, 2008)

NancyGirl74 said:


> FFFFFOOOOOODDDD...I need it...I crave it...I can't live without it.
> 
> Hello, I'm Nancy and I'm addicted to food.



a mi tambien!
im obsessed, i can admit it
i even have moments where i want to serenade my food with a song by a deceased black blind man
You give me fever, when you kiss me, fever when you hold me tight...
fever, in the morning, fever all through the night...

...ok so i _maybe_ i have issues


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## SilkyAngela (May 6, 2008)

totally was starting a new thread....oops


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## Fascinita (May 6, 2008)

[Warning: PHILOSOPHICAL MUSINGS FOLLOWING. Avert your eyes if you find this kind of stuff annoying.]

Being healthy is a good thing. So is being smart. So is giving to charity.

No one is required to be healthy, or to be smart, or to give to charity. Being healthy is not a duty; it is not a responsibility; it is not even something entirely under our control.

Our culture has turned "health" into a moral virtue. We conceive of "health" increasingly as a marker for deciding what's good and what's not. Because we are a deeply moralizing culture at the same time out of touch with our emotional spirituality and sense of community, "health" has become the ultimate moral responsibility--conceptually, the ultimate "good" in a materially-obssessed culture where the self's only responsibility is to--well--itself, is to safeguard the "health" (the stability) of one's own body. 

Because this view of the world is obssessively focused on the self, progressively inward-focused, and because this ensures that truly healthy connections to a potentially protective, nurturing community are lost, the self in this paradigm is doomed to turn ever increasingly in toward itself, guaranteeing even more alienation, and so on in a vicious cycle. It's an isolating way of being in the world, resulting in a bunch of individuals who at least _behave_ as though they have no one to rely on but themselves. 

Ironically, the distance between people, the lack of community, tends to make the individual even more focused on taking care of itself, protecting the self and the body from the chaotic environment created by the growing lack of community. 

Thus "health" has come to stand in as the "reasons" that seem to explain the existential choices that we make as a culture. _Better take care of that bod, it's all you've got. After all, who can you count on, if not yourself? Take care of yourself! Your health is your wealth! _

And so this reasoned concept of "health" has also become a virtue. In a world where "health" is all you've got, "health" is the ultimate good. The illusion that health is completely manageable and controllable helps round out the illusion that the self is in control, in a chaotic world where community counts for little and every body is a potential material threat to everybody else--health may be wealth, but material resources are scarce, as we are increasingly aware of.

There is an illusion that only fat people are capable of falling ill. I'm not exactly sure why, but I think it helps the illusion of control over death and illness that is so culturally central-- the idea that if you just don't become "one of them," you will be more or less OK. When AIDS was still regarded as an absolute and most horrifying, painful death sentence, akin to a pestilence or to being broken upon a wheel, everyone thought that if you just weren't gay, you'd be safe. Not only wasn't it true that just gay people died of AIDS, but nowadays, the reality is that many HIV+ people (who get treatment) live for decades after diagnosis.

It is a matter of life and death, this business of staying thin, at least symbolically--since fat equals death, just as gay used to equal death, etc.--and people literally then behave as though it _were_ a matter of life and death.

These kinds of anxieties are common. There is an entire trope of social psychology based around anxiety of "the other." When it comes to fat people, we seem to have come to symbolize everything that the culture finds abhorrent. What's at work is a kind of transference, maybe? I don't know. It seems downright suspect, though, that as someone said above, everyone else is suffering from an unfortuntate disease, but _fat people are killing themselves_. Somehow, this nonsensical view has become orthodox, so that you'd think, if you studied our cultural discourses on "health" from the outside, that only fat people and people with cancer ever die. 

Of course people realize this is not true, but in practical terms, more and more of us behave as though it were true that being thin is a guarantee to immortality (or as near to it as a body can get) while being fat is a death sentence. This is what doctors tell you. This is what your mom tells you. This is what your friends tell you. Maybe not always in those terms, but they do tell you.

Even HIV has become manageable in the public consciousness, less of a monster, while fat continues to grow in disrepute. Remember the AIDS scare? Remember what it was like not knowing whether you could get it from kissing, or from using the same bathroom as an infected person? It was terrifying for a while.

When people tell me that they're OK with my being fat as long as I'm healthy, I tell them that I'm OK with their having opinions, as long as they're not stupid.


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## olwen (May 7, 2008)

....Damn Fascinita, that's good. I wish I'd thought of it. Something to chew on.

I can't rep you - Noooooooooooooooooo. Whhhyyyyyyyyyy?


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## Santaclear (May 7, 2008)

Good points, Fasc. 

And gorgeous avatar pic, nice to finally see what ya look like!  

(I've already overused the "smitten" smiley today, don't mind me.)


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## Fascinita (May 7, 2008)

Heee, olwen and Santa... Thank you both kindly. :happy:

PS - Yeah, I thought I'd try going public for a bit, to let my friends put a face to the words. I've seen pics of most of you by now.


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## saucywench (May 7, 2008)

That was impressive. Very impressive.

I will come back in the morning for another read-through when I'm coherent.


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## prickly (May 7, 2008)

......necessarily the type of thread i would contribute to as a rule (i mean, where are the tits and arse?), but that is a brilliant piece, fasc.


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## Fascinita (May 7, 2008)

Good Conscience Addendum to Previous Post:

I would say that the only occasion when staying as healthy as possible is a responsibility is when a person has children. Then I definitely think that one has an obligation to try to be as healthy as possible. Even in this case, though, "being healthy" is not entirely up to us, though we can do our best to keep healthy habits.

I firmly believe that if half the energy that went into badgering fat people to "get healthy" were directed at big polluters (see 10 Worst Polluters) we'd _all_--fat and thin--be a lot healthier. Not to mention that it would just be plain nice to feel a little less fear and loathing aimed at us fatties.


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## butch (May 7, 2008)

Fascinita, if it were legal and you'd have me, I'd marry you right now. That post should be a sticky, made into a t-shirt, and you should at least be talking about it on Charlie Rose or Bill Moyers by now.

Damn, its that good (truth be told, I'm jealous of your post, you brainiac you).


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## Waxwing (May 7, 2008)

ripley said:


> My question is: What do they think will result? Do they think I don't know that I am fat? Do they think that just a heads-up from them will miraculously cause me to change habits of thirty years or more? Do they think I am so stupid that I don't know...that SOMEHOW I've missed years of television coverage and messages from doctors and politicians and my own mother? Is it _really_ about me, or is it more about them and their unwillingness to not condemn? Not to somehow, not so subtly, let me know that they do not approve and know better?



You know, I have NEVER said it with that kind of shitty judgmental subtext. When I say it what I mean it, "as long as you feel good, then FUCK everyone else's opinion. I want you to live a happy live HOWEVER AND IN WHATEVER FORM you choose."

Not everyone says this with subtext. I grant you, many people are shitty judging assholes. Not all of us. Is that what you really think that I mean when I'm talking about wanting loved ones to be healthy? Do you really think I'm loop-playing every Nightline segment on obesity I've ever seen? Condemn? For what!? 

I want people I love to feel good. If they tell me they do, right on. It's really as simple as that. And I'm not the only person on earth like that. I understand that it can be hard to ferret out people's motives, but assuming that everyone has a negative slant is just unfair.


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## TraciJo67 (May 7, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> You know, I have NEVER said it with that kind of shitty judgmental subtext. When I say it what I mean it, "as long as you feel good, then FUCK everyone else's opinion. I want you to live a happy live HOWEVER AND IN WHATEVER FORM you choose."
> 
> Not everyone says this with subtext. I grant you, many people are shitty judging assholes. Not all of us. Is that what you really think that I mean when I'm talking about wanting loved ones to be healthy? Do you really think I'm loop-playing every Nightline segment on obesity I've ever seen? Condemn? For what!?
> 
> I want people I love to feel good. If they tell me they do, right on. It's really as simple as that. And I'm not the only person on earth like that. I understand that it can be hard to ferret out people's motives, but assuming that everyone has a negative slant is just unfair.



Ditto what you said, although I understand where Ripley, Lilly & others are coming from. I remember all too well what it felt like to face silent (and a lot of not-so-silent) condemnation based only on my body size. I never felt that kind of judgment coming from my family or my close friends ... though at times, some feelings were transparent to me anyway. I understood concern. I loathed pity. 

To me, this thread has been very personal, because I've loved and lost people who would not (to an extent, perhaps could not) take care of themselves. My job involves working with people who are to an extent unable to care for themselves. In my mind though, a state of health has little to do with weight, and I believe that it's exceedingly unfair to base *any* assumptions on that one fact. I thought that this was a given. Perhaps it is not, especially considering the nature/intent of what this thread started out being.


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## Waxwing (May 7, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Ditto what you said, although I understand where Ripley, Lilly & others are coming from. I remember all too well what it felt like to face silent (and a lot of not-so-silent) condemnation based only on my body size. I never felt that kind of judgment coming from my family or my close friends ... though at times, some feelings were transparent to me anyway. I understood concern. I loathed pity.



I understand too. And I want to clarify that using myself as an example wasn't meant to be an "I, Waxwing, am free of judgment" (I'm not THAT self-centered. ) kind of thing, but an example of people *like me* who aren't doing this from a place of condemnation.

It is unfortunate in the extreme that we can't more easily identify people's motives when they "care".


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## NancyGirl74 (May 7, 2008)

You know, sometimes I think the "as long as you are healthy" statement is a throwing-my-hands-in-the-air-in-frustration type of statement. I own up to having said it a time or several. I remember when my cousin was pregnant and went outside to smoke. My aunts and I all cringed. Then I said it..."Well, as long as the baby is healthy." What else could I say? I can't rip into her (even though I wanted to). She was perfectly aware of the risks she was taking. I am perfectly aware of the risks of being overweight. What else can those who love me and worry for me really say? If they try to talk me into dieting or surgery they risk upsetting me...but if it's left unsaid they risk never telling me that I'm at risk. Yes, I know they know I know...but it's how people express love, by showing concern. So, knowing I know all they can really do sigh and send up a little prayer that I continue to stay healthy. Although, hearing the phrase might be offensive at times I can't really fault them for loving me and being concerned for my health. I love then too...and I often sigh and send up little prayers of my own on their behalf..."Let them be ok, let them be healthy."


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## Fascinita (May 7, 2008)

butch said:


> Fascinita, if it were legal and you'd have me, I'd marry you right now.



It's very gallant of you, and I accept.


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## butch (May 7, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> It's very gallant of you, and I accept.



Massachu...aw, fuck, I can't spell that-


CANADA, here we come!


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## Miss Vickie (May 7, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> You know, I have NEVER said it with that kind of shitty judgmental subtext. When I say it what I mean it, "as long as you feel good, then FUCK everyone else's opinion. I want you to live a happy live HOWEVER AND IN WHATEVER FORM you choose."
> 
> Not everyone says this with subtext. I grant you, many people are shitty judging assholes. Not all of us. Is that what you really think that I mean when I'm talking about wanting loved ones to be healthy? Do you really think I'm loop-playing every Nightline segment on obesity I've ever seen? Condemn? For what!?
> 
> I want people I love to feel good. If they tell me they do, right on. It's really as simple as that. And I'm not the only person on earth like that. I understand that it can be hard to ferret out people's motives, but assuming that everyone has a negative slant is just unfair.



Yes, yes and yes. It's unfair to ascribe motives to someone, just as it's unfair to assume that someone who is fat eats a lot and someone who is thin eats nothing but salads. Assumptions are rarely a good idea, I think.

I don't need a Nightline segment to tell me what I've seen with my own eyes, and experienced with my own body. Not to say I am EveryFatWoman, but my feelings of concern (whether verbalized are not) come from what I believe is a very genuine and caring place. I'm not naive enough to think this is always the case with everyone, obviously, and badgering someone is never a good idea. But yeah, if someone I love is engaging in harmful behavior that makes a health condition worse? I'll say something. Once.


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## ripley (May 7, 2008)

ripley said:


> I never said that "as long as you're healthy" is always said from a point of bigotry. I know that for some it comes from concern. I also know that for some it's the things that I said in my first post.
> 
> Believe it or not, but health issues aren't only the venue of fat people. People who do everything "right" still get diseases.





Waxwing said:


> You know, I have NEVER said it with that kind of shitty judgmental subtext. When I say it what I mean it, "as long as you feel good, then FUCK everyone else's opinion. I want you to live a happy live HOWEVER AND IN WHATEVER FORM you choose."
> 
> Not everyone says this with subtext. I grant you, many people are shitty judging assholes. Not all of us. Is that what you really think that I mean when I'm talking about wanting loved ones to be healthy? Do you really think I'm loop-playing every Nightline segment on obesity I've ever seen? Condemn? For what!?
> 
> I want people I love to feel good. If they tell me they do, right on. It's really as simple as that. And I'm not the only person on earth like that. I understand that it can be hard to ferret out people's motives, but assuming that everyone has a negative slant is just unfair.




........


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## olwen (May 7, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Ditto what you said, although I understand where Ripley, Lilly & others are coming from. I remember all too well what it felt like to face silent (and a lot of not-so-silent) condemnation based only on my body size. I never felt that kind of judgment coming from my family or my close friends ... though at times, some feelings were transparent to me anyway. I understood concern. I loathed pity.
> 
> To me, this thread has been very personal, because I've loved and lost people who would not (to an extent, perhaps could not) take care of themselves. My job involves working with people who are to an extent unable to care for themselves. *In my mind though, a state of health has little to do with weight, and I believe that it's exceedingly unfair to base *any* assumptions on that one fact. I thought that this was a given.* Perhaps it is not, especially considering the nature/intent of what this thread started out being.



If I have learned anything in life it's that common sense is not all that common after all. It won't be a given if the average citizen is told (i.e. brainwashed) by many authority figures who they (blindly?) trust and believe in that no matter what fat=bad and thin=good.


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## Fascinita (May 8, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> I want people I love to feel good. If they tell me they do, right on. It's really as simple as that. And I'm not the only person on earth like that. I understand that it can be hard to ferret out people's motives, but assuming that everyone has a negative slant is just unfair.



I hope you don't mind me responding to your post to ripley, Wax. It raised a couple of questions for me.

Actually, one's more of a response... I just wanted to say that, in my experience, it's usually not that difficult to "ferret out" people's motives. A reasonably intelligent person can usually tell if a person wants to be helpful or merely to criticize. Of course, we're not always right, but that's par for the course, so I don't see it as an issue of particular note, really.

The other thing was that I wonder, when you say that you want people you love to feel good, whether it's understood that sometimes people don't feel good--not just people, but all people. People get old, they get sick, they die. Of course we do all we can for our loved ones! But do you think that sometimes we want people to be well soooo much that we begin putting it on them to be well at all costs, even going so far as resenting them or blaming them when they do get sick?

I'm just curious and wondered what others thought. Thanks.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 8, 2008)

Fascinita said:


> I hope you don't mind me responding to your post to ripley, Wax. It raised a couple of questions for me.
> 
> Actually, one's more of a response... I just wanted to say that, in my experience, it's usually not that difficult to "ferret out" people's motives. A reasonably intelligent person can usually tell if a person wants to be helpful or merely to criticize. Of course, we're not always right, but that's par for the course, so I don't see it as an issue of particular note, really.
> 
> ...




You make a good point...when you are not well, who is it that takes care of you? The ones that love you....so it is a valid point that the "push" for you to be healthy could be based upon the fear of having to take care of you.


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