# Childless By Choice



## goofy girl (Nov 18, 2009)

Since I've gotten married I feel I'm getting pressure to start a family and not even from family members. (Steve's family and my family both know that we aren't planning on children...and they all agree it's the best thing for all involved lol) It seems there is a baby boom at work and I'm constantly hearing "Bridget, you're next!!" or "Bridget, when are you going to have a couple of kids?"

I would like to be able to say "Well, it's none of your business" but that would be rude. Ok..what I'd REALLY like to say is that I think pregnancy is repulsive - yeah it's beautiful and a miracle and all that crap, but someone LIVING in my gut for 9 months?!? CREEPY - that I don't think it's worth it financially, and that I just don't want the responsibility. But those are probably worse responses than the "none of your business" one. 

And oh the LOOK OF HORROR when I tell people that I'm not having kids because I don't want them. Like I just shot Bambi's mother right in front of him for crying out loud. 

Even worse than the pressure of having babies that bothers me so much as the way that the mothers are so damn condescending to childless married women. Like I'm less of a person, all of a sudden I don't exist or something. That I can't possibly understand how busy they are, or how much they have to do in a day or how I'll never experience real unconditional love unless I become a parent. 

If my decision to not have children is OK with me, then why can't it be OK with everyone else? When women at work are pregnant for the 3rd or 4th time I don't say "Jeez, isn't it time to stop yet?!!?" And believe me...sometimes I want to say it. 

There are times when I do feel somewhat guilty for not wanting kids. I know there are people out there that would do anything for a child, and it makes me feel sort of like a heartless monster sometimes to be honest, that I have no desire to have children. 

Am I the only one that feels this way??


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## Smushygirl (Nov 18, 2009)

No Goof, you are not the only one to feel this way. I used to be offended by gay folks calling straights "breeders", but when I am around a group of the nouveau parents and their demon spawn, I understand.


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## comaseason (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm in the no-kids-for-me camp. My mom likes to think that when I meet the right fella I'll magically want the things. But no thank you. No sirree bob. I don't even like being around kids. 

Co-worker: "Laura, Susie brought in her kid."
Me: "That's nice."
Co-worker: "Well aren't you going to go over?"
Me: "No thanks."
And then the glare, Laura you cold icy-hearted bitch. What kind of monster are you?
Co-worker: "You went over when Amy brought in her puppy."
Me: "Well yeah, it's a puppy."

So no, you are absolutely not the only one.


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## Ash (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm also a card-carrying non-breeder, and I dislike when people ask me why. I feel like it's a personal decision that I shouldn't have to justify.

For the record, though, I don't dislike kids. I think they're cute and fun and pretty entertaining a lot of the time. I just don't want to own any.


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## littlefairywren (Nov 18, 2009)

I used to think I wanted kids. Almost did a couple of times too, when I was married.

But the older I get, the less desirable that thought is. All I have to do is spend time in the shops, and watch the feral little monsters screaming in the aisles and I am cured:bow:

And yes, I also have friends who treat me like I am missing out on being "a real woman" because I don't have an ankle biter of my own. I have a cousin who is "Earth Mother" with 3 horrid children, and she always looks at me with sympathy.

You are not alone.


Actually, I don't mind babies.....it's just when they learn how to say no, that is when they are tiresome.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 18, 2009)

Never had the slightest bit of interest in it. Don't like them, don't have them, don't regret it.

One of my theories as to why some women get all condescending and in your face about it is they secretly don't think it's as wonderful as they were led to believe. I'm sure parenthood is great but i'm sure it can also be soul sucking, boring, annoying, stressful, and frustrating. The thing is, if it's not what you dreamed it would be you're STUCK. So I think a lot of women try to justify and rationalize it by ensuring that you breed too---misery loving company and all that.

Put my squarely in the "but it's a puppy" camp too. I'd be a lot more interested in seeing a new puppy than some squalling brat.

One fun snarky idea to shut them the hell up is if somebody says "You're next" or some such crap, start tearing up a little and tell them you're infertile. They'll spread the word like wildfire and quit bothering you because it might pain you to hear about it.

Or tell them Steve was born a woman and doesn't have functional testes. Either would be fun.


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## Sugar (Nov 18, 2009)

goofy girl said:


> There are times when I do feel somewhat guilty for not wanting kids. I know there are people out there that would do anything for a child, and it makes me feel sort of like a heartless monster sometimes to be honest, that I have no desire to have children.



Your heart and kindness keeps me in awe. There is nothing wrong with not wanting kids.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 18, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> One fun snarky idea to shut them the hell up is if somebody says "You're next" or some such crap, start tearing up a little and tell them you're infertile. They'll spread the word like wildfire and quit bothering you because it might pain you to hear about it.


No, that's when they take it upon themselves to ratchet up their concern. When hubby & I learned we couldn't have children, we weren't particularly upset. Childless was perfectly fine, and in a way we were glad the decision had been made for us. What did annoy us were the well-meaning people who kept telling us about fertility treatments, and of course, "you can always adopt!" No, really, we're fine. It took only a decade or two for people to see that being childless worked really well for us. We like children, and it's a lot of fun at family gatherings when the little kiddos love to sit in their big fat Aunt Sue's lap. Then they get down and go home. 

As to co-worker conversations, my favorite went something like this:
Co-worker: "Isn't that the most beautiful baby in the world?"
Me: "What? My mother said *I* was the most beautiful baby in the world."


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 18, 2009)

Whenever I say I don't want kids people always say something along the lines of, oh you're young sweetheart.. you don't GET it yet. 

Maybe that's true. Get back to me in 10 years and we'll talk.

For now though, I REALLY don't want children. I don't want the financial or emotional responsibility, I don't want to go through the actual children bearing process and I honestly have zero interest in raising a child. Children are.. okay.. when they're other people's. To be completely honest.. I feel very awkward around kids haha. I just don't like them all that much. They can be cute at times but it takes very little time for me to get irritated. One of my friends is pregnant right now and I'm actually very happy for her because it's something I know she really wants.. but, I just don't feel like it's for me.

Sometimes, every once in a little while, I do get a little motherly instinct going on and I wish I had a baby but it goes away pretty quickly haha. I think it's just hormones.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 18, 2009)

> Sometimes, every once in a little while, I do get a little motherly instinct going on and I wish I had a baby but it goes away pretty quickly haha. I think it's just hormones.



That's a smart way to look at it. A biological urge does not necessarily coincide with the practical thing to do.

Not everyone has the financial, spiritual, or emotional resources for parenting. Not everyone is temperamentally suited to it. You may have a genetic condition or your husband might that you don't want to pass on. It may not be compatible with other life plans like if you want to travel or have a certain type of job like Emergency Medicine.

Also lots of people are really short sighted and see "cute little baby in cute Snuggli and little booties" and dont' think about the kid screaming, ruining your sex life, puking, gross diapers, the terrible twos, the excessive cost, the fact your kid might turn out to be a drug addicted kleptomaniac.


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 18, 2009)

Yep, exactly. I think a lot of people when they think about having children.. ESPECIALLY at my age think awww baby, aw 2 or 4 year old.. do they ever think oh hey.. 14 year old getting in trouble or 16 year old wanting to drive your car or 18 year old wanting you to help pay for college. No. I know because my parents were that way. They were fantastic until I wasn't really a child anymore and then they sorta got sick of it and half assed the last 6 years of my life. I don't want to be that person.


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## goofy girl (Nov 18, 2009)

I've actually thought about the whole infertility speech LOL But I'm a huge believer in Karma and I'm terrified if I lie about something like that I'll get uterine cancer or something LOL

I have those moments, too, ThatGirl. A few years ago a co-worker brought her baby into work and I held her for about 7 seconds and started bawling and I had to beg her to take the baby away...thought I might run out the door with her. But, 5 minutes later I was like, WTF was that about? ha!


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## Ruffie (Nov 18, 2009)

I have two sets of couples that do not want to have children as friends. They two constantly get hassled as well and one time my friend asked me why Grant and I wanted kids. I explained it was cause we were both only children and we were the babies of our family and not close to them we wanted to have our own family. He said you know you are the first person to tell me a good reason why they had kids and you know I appreciate you never hassling us to have kids. I said well you know what that is your personal choice and NO ONE should tell you how to live your life. My other friends had his Grandma chase her (literally) around the kitchen with a turkey baster saying I want great grandkids dammit! Why it is people think that everyone should reproduce is beyond me. They love our kids, thier neices and nephews but also love the life they have created for themselves.


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 18, 2009)

goofy girl said:


> I have those moments, too, ThatGirl. A few years ago a co-worker brought her baby into work and I held her for about 7 seconds and started bawling and I had to beg her to take the baby away...thought I might run out the door with her. But, 5 minutes later I was like, WTF was that about? ha!



Haha.. yeah, I had a few minutes like that when my friend first told me she was pregnant. I was like awww I want that to be me, but then 5 minutes later I was like what the hell. No I don't.

My mom and grandparents have already expressed their disapproval at me saying I don't want children. My mom's like BUT I WANT GRANDKIDS. My response? You should've had more children so the probability was higher. (I'm an only child.) Like, I'm not going to have children so you can have grandchildren


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## kayrae (Nov 18, 2009)

Love, love, love children. But I definitely DO NOT WANT. And I've felt this way for over 8 years... maybe when I'm older I'll change my mind. I actually got into a pretty big argument about it with someone I was dating. That relationship pretty much ended because of it.


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## AuntHen (Nov 18, 2009)

no way girl.. you are not alone. I love my nieces and nephews, but I love to give them back and go home when I am done giving them love and fun. I do not want kids. I want to get married but nokidsthxbye


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## cinnamitch (Nov 18, 2009)

I have 4 kids and two grandkids that i adore. That's it though. I like MY kids . Other kids get on my nerves. Never cared to get googly eyed with a baby or play with little kiddies. So yeah i can understand the childless by choice camp.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 18, 2009)

> I would like to be able to say "Well, it's none of your business" but that would be rude.



Actually what's rude is to ask such a personal question in the first place.

maybe you can say "If you'll forgive me for not answering a question about such a private matter, i'll forgive you for asking it."


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## Leesa (Nov 18, 2009)

I am a child free zone. I can only take them in 6 hour increments.


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## KittyKitten (Nov 18, 2009)

_*Don't stress. When you are ready, then you can have them. At some point that biological clock would tick like crazy.

I'm 26 right now in a serious relationship and it's ticking--but I don't want any right now--I'm busy in school taking some teaching courses. If I want a kid, I have to do it before age 35, I don't want my child coming out with defects. 

You shouldn't be forced to have kids when you are not ready. Kids demand the ultimate attention. *_


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## Ash (Nov 18, 2009)

happyface83 said:


> _*Don't stress. When you are ready, then you can have them. At some point that biological clock would tick like crazy.
> 
> I'm 26 right now in a serious relationship and it's ticking--but I don't want any right now--I'm busy in school taking some teaching courses. If I want a kid, I have to do it before age 35, I don't want my child coming out with defects.
> 
> You shouldn't be forced to have kids when you are not ready. Kids demand the ultimate attention. *_



I think the whole point of this thread is that it's OK to _never_ want kids and to deny that a "biological clock" has anything to do with it. I don't think anyone in this thread is merely saying "I'm not ready." 

Also, plenty of women over the age of 35 have healthy babies.


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## fatgirlflyin (Nov 18, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I think the whole point of this thread is that it's OK to _never_ want kids and to deny that a "biological clock" has anything to do with it. I don't think anyone in this thread is merely saying "I'm not ready."
> 
> Also, plenty of women over the age of 35 have healthy babies.



I have a lot of respect for people who know that they don't want kids and take the steps needed to make sure that they don't have them. Raising a child is a huge, life-changing responsibility and no one should be faced with shouldering that responsibility unless its one that they want.


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## KittyKitten (Nov 18, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I think the whole point of this thread is that it's OK to _never_ want kids and to deny that a "biological clock" has anything to do with it. I don't think anyone in this thread is merely saying "I'm not ready."
> 
> Also, plenty of women over the age of 35 have healthy babies.


*
That's fine, kids are not for everybody. Everyone is not meant to have kids. I'm a strong believer in not forcing people to do what they don't want to do. Besides, someone else in the family can carry down the family name.

Sure, women can have kids over 35, but that risk of defects is very high. I'm not taking that chance. 

*


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## Saoirse (Nov 18, 2009)

Im not into the whole pregnancy thing either.

My mom is just yearning for a grandbaby. She talks about it with me and my older (single, childless and wanting to stay that way) brother. Then she tells me that when (if!!) I get married, I'll change my mind... and that may very well happen, but as of right now- I dont want kids!

Its not that I dont like kids... its just that I like animals better 

However, I have decided that if I ever became the a parent (by adoption!) I would name them Ioan and Saoirse.


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## Carrie (Nov 19, 2009)

I agree that "why aren't you planning to have kids?" is quite a personal/bordering on outright rude question to ask a person, but unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me at all that people ask it anyway. Pregnancy in general is seen as such a public domain kind of topic that people feel okay asking a total stranger if they can feel her pregnant belly. It kind of boggles my mind, that.


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## crayola box (Nov 19, 2009)

happyface83 said:


> *
> That's fine, kids are not for everybody. Everyone is not meant to have kids. I'm a strong believer in not forcing people to do what they don't want to do. Besides, someone else in the family can carry down the family name.
> 
> Sure, women can have kids over 35, but that risk of defects is very high. I'm not taking that chance.
> ...




I wasn't going to chime in on this thread because I personally haven't yet made the decision- seems like it would be jumping the gun seeing as I am not in a relationship at the moment. (though that's just me, not criticizing anyone who knows what they want ahead of time) Though, I fully support people who don't want to have children, its your decision and you don't owe anyone an explanation about it. That being said, while I am sure it was not intended as offensive the above quote left me bothered. I am having trouble putting my finger on it, and even more trouble articulating it but I think it has to do with families and societies preferring a male heir because they carry on the family name and all that entails as opposed to female children who married into their husbands family. Obviously this is not usually the case anymore but somehow the above seems like one of those notions left over from that era...if that makes sense. Again I am sure its not what you were implying and I am in no way putting words in your mouth, that's just how it struck me.


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## BBW Betty (Nov 19, 2009)

TallFatSue said:


> No, that's when they take it upon themselves to ratchet up their concern. When hubby & I learned we couldn't have children, we weren't particularly upset. Childless was perfectly fine, and in a way we were glad the decision had been made for us. What did annoy us were the well-meaning people who kept telling us about fertility treatments, and of course, "you can always adopt!" No, really, we're fine. It took only a decade or two for people to see that being childless worked really well for us. We like children, and it's a lot of fun at family gatherings when the little kiddos love to sit in their big fat Aunt Sue's lap. Then they get down and go home.
> 
> As to co-worker conversations, my favorite went something like this:
> Co-worker: "Isn't that the most beautiful baby in the world?"
> Me: "What? My mother said *I* was the most beautiful baby in the world."



This is a post I can relate to. While I'm 40, and anything is possible, Frank and I have pretty much accepted that it probably won't happen for us, what with my PCOS and doctors refusing to prescribe fertility drugs until I lose weight.... Anyway, with accepting the childless state, I've come to appreciate things not possible if we had become parents. We are freer to do things we want to do without having to consider the logistics of travelling with babies and all their accessories. We'll never be wealthy, but money is easier than it would be with kids, as well. I love my nieces and nephews, but it's nice to give them back to my sister after spending a little quality time with them.


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## steely (Nov 19, 2009)

I know myself well enough to know that children are not a good choice for me. While I don't paricularly care for chidren, I don't wish them harm, well maybe the two that were screaming the last time Harold and I went to dinner. My own background and the examples of my siblings have convinced my I have made the right choice for me.

I have little patience, less tolerance and come from a family of abuse. I have no regrets. None.


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## Tooz (Nov 19, 2009)

happyface83 said:


> _*Don't stress. When you are ready, then you can have them. At some point that biological clock would tick like crazy.*_



Except, no.

I hate children. I will NEVER have children.


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## Cors (Nov 19, 2009)

I don't care for children. I feel your irritation, Goofy.


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## ByRoSwim (Nov 19, 2009)

I knew I didnt want kids when I was 13. Deep in my heart and soul, I just KNEW IT. I never had that maternal instinct, never really liked kids. I could tolerate them for a brief period of time but that is it. 

I have 5 neices and nephews. I was a wonderful aunt, made the girls matching Christmas dresses, always had fun with them but I knew they would go home after a while. I was never interested in "oooooing and ahhhhing" over babies. I was rather indifferent and glad I didn't have to take the baby home. 

My clock was never ticking. I am perfectly happy with no kids in my life. I can go where i want, do what i want and spend my money on me. Some people think that is selfish, I don't. I think it's selfish to have kids when you really dont want to just because you think you should, does that make sense?

However, all that being said, I will aways stand inbetween a child and danger. Whether it is an animal or a stranger. I would never allow a child to be hurt, if I can help it. Anyway, our choices should be respected.


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## Flutterby68 (Nov 19, 2009)

When someone brings up when you're going to have kids, you look at them with a stunned expression and say "I don't know why you think that my reproductive choices are any of your business." Then when you get any other comments, you use that same line - repeatedly if necessary.


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## comaseason (Nov 19, 2009)

ByRoSwim said:


> However, all that being said, I will aways stand inbetween a child and danger. Whether it is an animal or a stranger. I would never allow a child to be hurt, if I can help it. Anyway, our choices should be respected.



I wanted to quote this because it's *exactly *how I feel.


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## StarWitness (Nov 19, 2009)

I have no intention of having children, nor have I ever. In terms of caretaking, cats are my limit.


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 19, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> In terms of caretaking, cats are my limit.



Haha, yes, I feel this way too. I don't want to be a cat lady like the unmarried kind.. I want to convince my boyfriend to be like.. a cat couple.. 10 cats each.


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## Tina (Nov 20, 2009)

I have a lot of friends who are, as they call it, "child-free," and I can respect that. Being someone who is totally for a woman's right to do as she pleases with her reproductive system, I think it's great that a woman knows what she does, and doesn't want. There are enough unwanted children in the world, so let the people who want children have them and the ones who don't want children take steps to prevent having them. Where's the rule that any and every couple has to have kids anyway?


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## Shosh (Nov 20, 2009)

Goof you are a lovely person, and you seem happy with your husband and your cat.
It is nobody's business but your own!

I understand about the whole condesending mothers thing.
Some women try to make you feel less of a woman if you do not have children.

A few weeks ago I came across a child who had been left unattended in a car. The mother was nowhere to be found.
I of course stayed with the child until the mother returned some 15 minutes later.
When I confronted her about it, she said she had to do errands, and that it was too hard to take the child with her.
I was horrified, as anything could have happened. I told her so also.
The woman then said " Do you have children? How would you know what it is like?"
I was stunned.
One does not have to have children to know that leaving them unattended in a car is something that should NEVER happen.
Such an asshole this woman was. A condesending mother.

I get asked if I am going to have children. At one time I thought that I might, but I am not well enough to. It would be too much for me to physically and emotionally handle.
That fact does not make me less of a woman.

I am fine about it now. I love my freedom and my peace and quiet!
I get to be an Auntie to Gigi and Marcus, and my other nephews and nieces and that is enough.

Goof your life is just perfect as it is.


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## fatgirlflyin (Nov 20, 2009)

I can't seem to keep my bathroom smelling clean with 2 cats. Good luck with 20 lol!


thatgirl08 said:


> Haha, yes, I feel this way too. I don't want to be a cat lady like the unmarried kind.. I want to convince my boyfriend to be like.. a cat couple.. 10 cats each.


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 20, 2009)

fatgirlflyin said:


> I can't seem to keep my bathroom smelling clean with 2 cats. Good luck with 20 lol!



Hahaha yeah it'd actually be pretty gross to have 20 cats.


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## velia (Nov 20, 2009)

comaseason said:


> Co-worker: "You went over when Amy brought in her puppy."
> Me: "Well yeah, it's a puppy."



Laura this made me laugh outright. 



Ashley said:


> I'm also a card-carrying non-breeder, and I dislike when people ask me why. I feel like it's a personal decision that I shouldn't have to justify.



It makes my blood boil when people are rude enough to question your decision not to procreate-- as though you're doing something wrong. Gah.



thatgirl08 said:


> Whenever I say I don't want kids people always say something along the lines of, oh you're young sweetheart.. you don't GET it yet.



I've never heard this one before, but it's infuriating. I'm not quite sure what the motivation of saying that would be. "Oh, sweetheart, you're young. You'll outgrow your childish desire not to have children even if you don't ever really want them." Whatever. While I can't say you'll never change your mind, I have plenty of friends and relatives who decided kids weren't for them in their early teens and never regretted it. 




Shosh said:


> Goof you are a lovely person, and you seem happy with your husband and your cat.
> It is nobody's business but your own!
> 
> I understand about the whole condesending mothers thing.
> ...



Shosh, that is horrific! I can't believe some people. 

Goof, you have every right to say whatever you want to these people. I have one child, but that doesn't mean I or any other "breeder" has the right to ask you probing personal questions or assert their opinion on your reproductive choices. 

I totally understand that there are some situations in which you must maintain total civility. However, when it comes to women who choose to be condescending about the fact that you don't have children, tell those uppity wenches where to shove it! Good luck to you. Children or no, you are every bit as smart, responsible, and busy as any other woman.


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## D_A_Bunny (Nov 20, 2009)

Unfortunately in this day and age people feel free to ask anyone almost anything. As a woman who wanted children but never became pregnant, I would get this question all the time. My response was always, "I haven't been blessed." Even two years ago when I was in medical rehab people, practically strangers would ask me if I had children. If I said no, they would ask why? Oh, I don't know, just to have a something to talk about with a stranger. 

My brother-in-law and his wife decided to not have children. They get the same questions. Her answer to nosy people "People who don't want children, shouldn't have them." That should get the point across. 

Geez, how long did we have to fight to get the freedom to do what we want with our own bodies? If someone does not want to have a child, leave them alone. 

At this point, my husband and I have come to realize that because we have never had our own children, we get to be the cool aunt and uncle. Not only that we are very close and most of the couples we know that do have children are not as close. It is just human nature to put the kids first in a relationship. 

Bridget, I do think that if these are people that you see every day, you are going to need to address the situation somehow. But hopefully once you tell a person, they will get it and back off. If they don't I would just tell them, we have already discussed this and every time you bring it up it makes me wonder why you are doing this.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 20, 2009)

I think it would be awesome if it were socially accpetable to tell somebody who says *"oooh i can't wait to be a mommy* that don't worry dear, one day you'll change your mind.

Or even to go up to some harried looking breeder whose kids are running around making a mess of a public place and screaming and breaking things and say "I have to ask you, whyever did you decide to have children?"

My mother who not only has one biological child but a degree in early childhood education and taught for years and ran a preschool/prekindgergarten program in her local school system was once out to eat in a coffee shop. She got her food and coffee and was sitting down reading the newspaper and some little demon spawn was acting up next to her, stomping his feet and yelling at his dad. She didn't want her lunch interupted so she just got up and moved. Apparently the mother got _offended_ that somebody actually was not overjoyed to be seating next to little Damian and walked over to her new seat after she moved and yelled at her "It's so obvious you don't have or LIKE CHILDREN." Now first off, I don't think either of those things is an insult, but this idiot was wrong on both counts. My mom said "Actually, I have and do like them, your was just ruining my lunch so I moved."


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 20, 2009)

fatgirlflyin said:


> I can't seem to keep my bathroom smelling clean with 2 cats. Good luck with 20 lol!



True but you also have two kids. How many kids=how many cats in the cleanliness department. maybe she could manage 10.


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## cheekyjez (Nov 20, 2009)

(I'm not sure if it's OK for me to post here, if not then please delete).

This is something that Teleute and I have discussed a lot. She gets asked when babies are coming often, I never am. While we haven't made a final decision on kids, we are agreed on a few things:
1) Not now
2) She's not bearing them (her uterus, her rules).

My favorite response to "when are you having kids?" is "2020". The odds of them remembering in 11 years time are pretty slim, and until then we have a tactic to shut them up.


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## fatgirlflyin (Nov 20, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> True but you also have two kids. How many kids=how many cats in the cleanliness department. maybe she could manage 10.




LOL I have two kids AND two cats! My kids are pretty clean though and they flush after they use the toilet.


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## Inhibited (Nov 20, 2009)

Sometimes i'm torn, as i get the "oh you will change your mind when you meet the right person", as most of my friends are single parents i envision myself being a single parent and i don't want this for myself, so maybe they are right if i have the support then maybe i would change my mind.... 

Am not saying anything negative about single parents, i don't want that for myself as i see how hard it is, and i know that most people never plan to be a single parent..


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 20, 2009)

Tina said:


> I have a lot of friends who are, as they call it, "child-free," and I can respect that. Being someone who is totally for a woman's right to do as she pleases with her reproductive system, I think it's great that a woman knows what she does, and doesn't want. There are enough unwanted children in the world, so let the people who want children have them and the ones who don't want children take steps to prevent having them. Where's the rule that any and every couple has to have kids anyway?



Yes. This.

I've wanted children since I was in my late 20's. I was someone who felt that I'd never desire a child, and did change my mind. However, I know that a lot of people who feel this way never do, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that.

I think that a lot of people just naturally assume that what THEY want is something that everyone else does (or should) want. It took me a long time to understand the good intentions behind some incredibly nosy or pointed questions directed at my husband and I, as we remained childless into our late 30's. In fact, it wasn't until after I adopted Jegan that I begin to understand in some small way. Everything that the childless by choice crowd has said about the difficulties of raising children, the hard work, the often grueling aspect of caring for them 24/7 is true. But I wouldn't trade any of it for the world. That's just me. I know that someone who wishes to remain childless wouldn't find the same joy in the things that I do. However, I don't think that the nosy parkers of the world are asking to be cruel. I think that they just can't understand the concept of someone not wanting what is, to them, the most important thing in the world. The 'mommy' badge is one that I proudly display, and I now understand why my friends and family wanted it so badly for me (at times, moreso than I did). Having said that, though ... I chose this, and I wanted it. I can absolutely understand why many people do not choose it, do not want it, and still manage to have fulfilling and meaningful lives. Unfortunately, a lot of clueless parents, who are joyful about their precious lil spawn p), can't seem to understand why this isn't a choice for everyone.


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## tinkerbell (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm apart of this group too! My husband and I have been together for almost 11 years, and I think FINALLY people are getting it that we are most likely not having children and have stopped asking. He has never really wanted children, and for a while I really really did. And after I had pre cancerous cells removed from my cervix, my Dr told me that I may have problems getting pg and then have problems keeping a pg. I figured I can be ok with it, or be bitter about it. I dont want to go through a lot of $$ and heartache with fertility treatments, so I had to be ok with it, for my sanity. 

And for the most part, I dont like kids. I dont think many of them are cute, and I like my life as it is. I do get twinges every once in a while, and my husband and I recently had a long talk about things that happened in our past, and us having children. And we may try someday, but there are things I want in place first before that even happens. And right now, I like it being just us and the dogs. I like that I can just leave my house whenever I want, and dont have to worry about kids. My kids can be left home alone  

But I will say that after saying I'm not having kids for the past 8ish years, people in my family have stopped asking.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 20, 2009)

tinkerbell said:


> I like that I can just leave my house whenever I want, and dont have to worry about kids. My kids can be left home alone



I have to admit, I miss that a lot. And we still have many years ahead of us before we can ever just take off at a moment's notice. Right now, I practically have to plan to leave the house just to go buy groceries.

I admire your approach. Unfortunately, I did become bitter and angry, disillusioned, and sometimes couldn't even bring myself to congratulate or feel happy for people who were having children. I wish I could take that part of it back -- the inability to be gracious.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 20, 2009)

fatgirlflyin said:


> LOL I have two kids AND two cats! My kids are pretty clean though and they flush after they use the toilet.



I've read where cats can be taught to do that.


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## BothGunsBlazing (Nov 20, 2009)

I kind of skimmed the thread so if this was already brought up, I'm sorry. Obviously I can't really y'know, have children in that way, but I am wondering about something.

I've got a friend who is 28 and doesn't have any kids tell me that all her friends she grew up with that now have children have all blown her off in favor of just hanging out with each other. All her friends without children still manage to stick together. Is this something anyone else has found to be the case? I guess she is feeling that because she doesn't have children she is being osterized for it. Like she is a lesser person to them now because she can't relate to the whole being a mother deal therefore they now have NOTHING in common. 

I guess I don't really understand that. I know raising a kid is a HUGE deal, but I don't understand why some one would forsake their previous identity completely because of it. Sometimes I see people with screen names/board names like "momof3" or "kylesmom" and I cringe thinking like, is that all there is now? Obviously, there is nothing wrong with being proud of being a mother, but I dunno, it seems incredibly condescending to me to think you're a better person just because you have children compared to some one who doesn't.

Although, I guess I can't judge too much since my mother's email is [email protected]


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 20, 2009)

I want spawn. I want to populate the earth with evil little replicas of myself who propagate my ways clumsily like hybrid goons. Seriously. I do want to have kids. I think it's perfectly fine that people don't though. I know many people who don't want them. It's common in my world.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 20, 2009)

I think it's more like you just tend to gravitate towards those that have more in common with you. When you're a parent that is going to be a huge part of your life and you probably are going to find you have more in common with other parents the same way people hang out together because they belong to the same football team, book club, church, etc.

Having kids changes your life in a big way, and it's possible if the other person's life hasn't changed that drastically you may both feel you have less in common.


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## Tooz (Nov 20, 2009)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Sometimes I see people with screen names/board names like "momof3" or "kylesmom" and I cringe thinking like, is that all there is now?



This bothers me, too. If people wanna have kids, that's fine, but don't lose yourself.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 20, 2009)

Children bring about huge changes in lifetsyles, plain and simple. My husband & I lost touch with many of our old high school and college friends after they had children, simply because raising a family took so much of their time, energy and money, especially for multiple children. It's perfectly understandable that couples with children and couples without children would tend to form their own groups. Personally Art & I didn't think it a case of one group considering itself better than the other. Although a few did seem to immerse their entire identities in their children, kinda like they were growing up all over again, vicariously.

Now that we're over 50, and their kiddos are grown up and moving out, some of us are getting back in touch with each other. It turned out that some couples in each group did regard it as an "us" and "them" situation. Now that they're becoming empty-nesters, though, it's almost a non-issue, for us anyway. It's also interesting to see some of the moms regaining their own identities. Some really miss having their kids around, and some almost feel like it's a wonderful release. Can't wait to see what happens when they become grandparents, and I mean that in a good way. 

With all of our nieces and nephews around, Art & I almost feel like grandparents who skipped the parent stage.


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## jamie (Nov 20, 2009)

My favorite line after telling someone that I am definitely sure that I never want children is..."but you would be a great mommy." I have to bite my tongue hard at this one. I can be a caring person and not have a maternal instinct in any fiber of my make up. 

I knew when I was a little girl that I didn't want to become a mother. I loved that there were people in the world who wanted to parent and create, but I have always had family issues and found it difficult to muster up that enthusiasm for continuing the family line. I am forgetful, and selfish with my time, and honestly, pretty lazy a lot - I don't see those as qualities that would be fair to some innocent child. I have a hair trigger impatience response and the idea of my wild child being a hellion is just not appealing. I kept dating people until I found someone who did not expect me to grow out of the "no-baby" stage and found my husband.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 20, 2009)

> My favorite line after telling someone that I am definitely sure that I never want children is..."but you would be a great mommy." I have to bite my tongue hard at this one. I can be a caring person and not have a maternal instinct in any fiber of my make up.



this is to me one of the weirdest lines ever. I mean the mere fact that you _might_ be good at something does not mean that you should do it. I'm sure there are many things you might be good at but that does not mean that you WILL be good at them or that you'd be interested in doing them.


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## Melian (Nov 20, 2009)

Add another name to the Not Having Kids list.

I would almost go as far as to say that my husband and I hate children. Not just "dislike"...."hate." When we got married, we didn't have a pre-nupt or anything, but we did agree that if either of us ever decided that we wanted children, that would be grounds for an immediate divorce.

My main issue (aside from the hatred) is this: I think of all the things I want to do in my life, and see children as a hindrance to most of them. I am an incredibly selfish person, and don't want to waste any of my time and money on screaming, shitting babies - it would probably end in abuse, to tell the truth. So it is in everyone's best interest that I do not reproduce.

Even my mother has accepted this fact, although it took years of me telling her about the abortion I would have if I ever became pregnant.


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## Tad (Nov 20, 2009)

Just to say, nosy & rude people will be nosy & rude people no matter what. The same ones who demand to know when you are having children (and seem offended when you say you won't) will probably tell you everything you are doing wrong as a parent (and seem offended if you aren't grateful) should you ever have kids, not to mention start demanding to know when you are going to have another kid. Example: My wife was recently interogated about when we'd have a second child, and upon her saying that we wouldn't, was told that we needed to have a second child "because the muslims are out-breeding us, we need more christian children." Nosy & rude = nosy & rude.


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## Tau (Nov 20, 2009)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Sometimes I see people with screen names/board names like "momof3" or "kylesmom" and I cringe thinking like, is that all there is now? Obviously, there is nothing wrong with being proud of being a mother, but I dunno, it seems incredibly condescending to me to think you're a better person just because you have children compared to some one who doesn't.
> 
> Although, I guess I can't judge too much since my mother's email is [email protected]



I don't have any tots of my own but i helped raise my niece and I totally get how utterly and completely having children changes every single aspect of your life - and i won't lie - its kind of scary. Most of the older women i know are no loger called by their own names, they're all called Masomebody. Its really common in these parts. My gran was called MaLisi - I'm not actually sure what my grandmother's real name was. My aunt is MaTiego, my mom's friend is called MaNtsie. Just to give it some context though - this was a badge of pride for them because for many women i know being a mother is still the highest achievement God can ever bless you with. 

I, like Lilly, intend to spawn  I also want to adopt several children. I too go googly over a puppies instead of babies, but raising my niece gave me a glimpse into a world i really want to be a part of. That said, people who are rude enough to ask questions about something as intensely personal as the choice to have children or not need to be put in their place. Also, people who think the whole world must just stop for the convenience of their offspring also need to get a clue.


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## Tania (Nov 20, 2009)

I think i must be the only 34-year-old woman on the planet whose family DOESN'T want her to procreate. My mother freely admits that she still sees me as a teenager and can't handle the idea of me having a child. LOL. 

Obviously, I'll have kids if I feel like it. Right now, I don't know if I feel like it. I'm more interested in establishing the whole "stable, loving relationship" thing first. Then, if the right person wants babies, I might decide I want babies too. Like Inhibited, I really don't want to be saddled with single parenthood. I respect single parents IMMENSELY - it's just not a way of life for which I'm cut out, being such a child myself in so many ways.


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## cheekyjez (Nov 20, 2009)

Tad said:


> Example: My wife was recently interogated about when we'd have a second child, and upon her saying that we wouldn't, was told that we needed to have a second child "because the muslims are out-breeding us, we need more christian children." Nosy & rude = nosy & rude.



Yeah, that's just stab-worthy. "Kids will make you happy" is intrusive but at least well meant; "kids are your DUTY" is horrific.


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## Tau (Nov 20, 2009)

Tad said:


> "because the muslims are out-breeding us, we need more christian children." Nosy & rude = nosy & rude.



THIS!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!! Who is this person??! *mind boggles* When i was about 12/13 i went out with a good school friend and her family - they were all very conservative Afrikaaners and were not too sure what to make of the fat, black child suddenly eating supper with them. So her uncle, who'd had far too much to drink, starts telling me about how he likes 'well behaved blacks' and what he admires about 'you people' is how many children we have and how strong our family ties are. And then he said, which made me laugh even then just cos it was so horrificly inappropriate and racist, was that soon 'every bloody, fucking person is going to be a coloured (mixed race) cos white people won't have babies!'  That was a memorable evening!


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## goofy girl (Nov 20, 2009)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Sometimes I see people with screen names/board names like "momof3" or "kylesmom" and I cringe thinking like, is that all there is now? Obviously, there is nothing wrong with being proud of being a mother, but I dunno, it seems incredibly condescending to me to think you're a better person just because you have children compared to some one who doesn't.
> 
> ]





Tooz said:


> This bothers me, too. If people wanna have kids, that's fine, but don't lose yourself.



YEEEEEEEEEEEESSSS!!! 

Or ...when a question comes up like what is your greatest success, or what are you most proud of...it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS "My wonderful children". 

I can completely understand how being a parent is important to people. Well..understand it the wrong word, I don't understand but I can...recognize?? Appreciate...? I can't really come up with the right word..what I'm trying to say is that I in no way think people are wrong to want to be parents or be proud to be parents, and believe it or not I can sympathize with being bitter and not being able to celebrate other's joys because you want it so badly for yourself (Shit, I'm the one that planned my wedding in 3 months because my best friend announced she was being married in the fall and I wanted to get married before her...true story...how twisted is THAT?!!?) 

And I do think kids are great and really really really hate when they are not treated well. But they make me feel incredibly nervous and shy and awkward, but I think they can be hilarious and very very sweet. Especially if I'm witnessing it via internet or TV or something (haha) 

The funny thing is, I'm a friggin kid magnet. My friends kids call me on the phone, they always want to sit right near me when I'm with them and they think I'm the funniest thing ever- probably because I talk about farts alot. 

What gets me is the things like "you'd be such a great Mom, you have to have at least one" or "You'll want them when the time is right". Ummm..no don't and no I won't. I know this about me. And to have to try to put into words and politely explain when I'm put on the spot about an incredibly personal issue is exhausting. I'd rather discuss the details of my visit to my GYN than have to explain why I don't want children. 

And BGB- nail on the head. It goes without saying that having children changes EVERYTHING. I was talking to a friend at work that has a two year old and you wouldn't believe what she has to do just to take a pee- seriously. But for some reason I find that the dynamics of female relationships changes when one has children and one remains childless, and nobody ever actually speaks it but it's that elephant in the room that you're on different levels somehow because one has offspring and the other doesn't. Most of my female friends do have kids, which is one reason I don't have much of a social life to be honest. 

I have so much more to say but this is already way too long lol...so I'll be back


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## TallFatSue (Nov 20, 2009)

One of my girlfriends is a proud mother, but she does keep it in perspective. She once told me, "Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your children."


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## mszwebs (Nov 21, 2009)

Tania said:


> I think i must be the only 34-year-old woman on the planet whose family DOESN'T want her to procreate. My mother freely admits that she still sees me as a teenager and can't handle the idea of me having a child. LOL.



HAHA... if I'm going to be anywhere within 100 feet of a man whose penis MIGHT see the light of day when I'm anywhere near it, I get a stern *NO BABIES* from my mother.

You're not alone dear lol.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 21, 2009)

Here's one minor but slightly annoying disadvantage for us childless couples. Today Art & I attended a wedding for at least the 4th time this year. They've been mostly for the adult children of friends. Of course we bought gifts for the newly-wedded couples, but having no children of our own, there's no way anyone can reciprocate and buy gifts for us. 

Naturally it's not about coming out even. Nonetheless I did my best to make up the difference in the buffet line at the reception. Extra wedding cake with extra frosting too. Yum. :eat2: 

Nice music as well, so I shook a leg (or two) on the dance floor two. Gotta work off the wedding cake to eat more, ya know. :eat2:


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## Tania (Nov 21, 2009)

mszwebs said:


> HAHA... if I'm going to be anywhere within 100 feet of a man whose penis MIGHT see the light of day when I'm anywhere near it, I get a stern *NO BABIES* from my mother.
> 
> You're not alone dear lol.



HAHA. We have a lot of experiences in common, it seems, right down to the repro-wiggy moms!


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## Frankie (Nov 21, 2009)

I don't want any children and neither does my boyfriend. I'm very awkward and uncomfortable around kids and babies, and I guess they sense that because within minutes of meeting me they usually start bawling or trying to hide behind their mommy. They look at me with fear and suspicion! I frighten small children, yes I do.

You know what's fun, though? Playing the "how old do you think I am?" game with kids. Suddenly, your 60 year old coworker is 28 and 35 year old you is 50. Good times!


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 21, 2009)

Talk about the dynamic between friendships. I was at a funeral for most of the day today. My best friend all through high school and most of my 20s' father passed away this week. She lost her mom last year and now her dad. We were best of friends until she married and had children, then the dynamic of our relationship changed and we drifted apart. Through the wonders of Facebook we're in touch again but FB is about as far as it goes.

It's heart wrenching to see her now going on losing both of her parents. Recently I've been faced with a sobering reality of my own mother's mortality. I was wandering about shouldering the terror of 'what if' when I got the call about my friend's father. Naturally I wanted to be there. Since I don't have a car I had to travel by public transportation. It took me two hours through four connections. I was moments late for every connection and had to stand around in the cold waiting each time. When all was said and done I arrived at the funeral parlor over an hour later than I wanted to. Meanwhile she and her husband have two cars and three kids. As I was traveling to go there I had a lot of time so sit and stew about missing my connections. I started to get a bit salty about the whole thing knowing that if the roles were switched and I was burying my mom or dad I knew she wouldn't be there for me. Naturally her family comes first, as they should, but still... I saw a bus pull up and idle directly in front of me with a heading for a direct rout for my home turf. I was sooo tempted to jump on it and tell her I was busy with Thanksgiving prep for an out of town guest and I had to prepare for a trip out of town immediately after. It would be the truth too but I didn't feel right doing that given the circumstances. So I went. I'm glad I did but I'm way behind in all my work. Comparably the things that I'm nurturing in my life as a childless unmarried woman just simply aren't as important as hers. 

Also I got a little miffed over the way things pan out at work. I have two part time coworkers, one has had two children and the other has had three. They took full maternity leave for these kids and I did a ton of fill in work on their behalf while they were gone. A while ago I got asked to go on tour as a soloist with the Boston Symphony. It required taking two and a half weeks off, most of which was without pay. I was fine with it but do you know those two biddies complained about my being out? I was livid! They started calling me 'diva' and shit. You don't know how badly I wanted to smack the shit out of those ladies. And when I asked for that time off my supervisor gave me a hard time! I had to go over her head and create all kinds of strain and drama with her over this golden opportunity. But if I said I wanted to plod out a baby they would have thrown a party. Once again, the things that are important to me are comparably meaningless and I absolutley *hate* that feeling.

[/rant]


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 22, 2009)

Bridget, you should absolutely do what's right for YOU. Damn, people can be such asshats, imposing their thoughts about your body on you. Whose business is it that you decide to have -- or not have -- children? Damn, people piss me off sometimes.

My own feeling is that for me, I loved motherhood. I loved all of it, being pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding, all of it. But that's just how I'm wired. My mom dutifully birthed three children but was cold as ice; I was the cuddly mom with lots of kids climbing all over me and now I have a job where I'm surrounded by babies. 

A rather odd things is that my kids all say they don't want to have kids, which I have to admit sometimes feels like an indictment to me, like I somehow instilled in them that this idea of motherhood was something besides joy (and a hell of a lot of hard work but also... joy). I know intellectually that I should be glad that they're not mindlessly procreating, since I see lots of that in my work and it's not good for anyone. But part of me thinks that if I were a good mom, my daughters would want to be like me... and therefore... a mom. It's just an impulsive thought, though, and obviously I support whatever life choices they make. I'm disappointed a little because my son and his girlfriend are both brilliant, thoughtful, creative and insightful citizens of the planet and are beautiful, to boot. They're among that special group of young adults that I think are going to save our asses. They are the people who SHOULD be passing on their DNA, but again that's probably just my maternal hormones speaking.  I want them all to be happy, and as long as they have love in their lives, I'll be thrilled for them.

I see, every day, the end result of mindless procreation and it breaks my heart. Babies foisted on family members, parents unprepared (emotionally, financially, in every way possible) for this huge event, lots of family drama and angst because two people didn't think ahead. I'd much rather people make a conscious choice to birth and raise a child than to get there without thought. If that means fewer people give birth, somehow I think our planet will forgive us. 



Ashley said:


> I think the whole point of this thread is that it's OK to _never_ want kids and to deny that a "biological clock" has anything to do with it. I don't think anyone in this thread is merely saying "I'm not ready."
> 
> Also, plenty of women over the age of 35 have healthy babies.



Yes they do. I was born to a woman over age 35. Yes, statistically speaking there is a higher incidence of certain birth defects (Downs' type) but it's by no means a foregone conclusion -- far from it. Women seem to have a more difficult time conceiving in their 30's which I think is more relevant to most women, but still is that a reason to have a baby before you're ready? Hardly! 



Tina said:


> I have a lot of friends who are, as they call it, "child-free," and I can respect that. Being someone who is totally for a woman's right to do as she pleases with her reproductive system, I think it's great that a woman knows what she does, and doesn't want. There are enough unwanted children in the world, so let the people who want children have them and the ones who don't want children take steps to prevent having them. Where's the rule that any and every couple has to have kids anyway?



Yes! It's all about choices, and knowing what you want.



goofy girl said:


> YEEEEEEEEEEEESSSS!!!
> 
> Or ...when a question comes up like what is your greatest success, or what are you most proud of...it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS "My wonderful children".
> 
> I can completely understand how being a parent is important to people. Well..understand it the wrong word, I don't understand but I can...recognize?? Appreciate...?



Maybe you mean "acknowledge"? That it's important to them?

And just because you'd be a great mom doesn't mean you're obligated to be one. I'd be a great brain surgeon (okay, probably not, but let's just imagine for a moment that I would) does that mean I have to go into neurosurgery, if my interests and passions lie elsewhere? Hell no.

If you want to have kids, have them. If you don't, then don't. I can't even believe that people are such sheep that they're putting that kind of pressure on other people!


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## KuroBara (Nov 22, 2009)

I personally get sick of being asked if I'm a lesbian when I mention I don't want to get married and/or have children. A lesbian?!! REALLY?!!!! I could possibly see that if there weren't lesbain and gay parents, or lesbians and gays who didn't want to be married, but there are massive political debates about both. That said, part of me wants a wedding, but just for the dress and reception. No mate. Silly I know, but I think I've found the theme for my 30th birthday party! 

Maybe I wear jeans too much or something...


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## kayrae (Nov 22, 2009)

*ahem* I'd like to be invited to this pretend wedding party.


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 22, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> If you want to have kids, have them. If you don't, then don't. I can't even believe that people are such sheep that they're putting that kind of pressure on other people!



Making babies seems to be rife with this kind of thing though. I've had conversations with friends of mine who decide not to breast feed and they say people are nearly having seizures right in front of them at the concept. The stratosphere is awash with all kinds of schools of thought on what foods to feed the baby, natural toys and products, early learning methods and programs, who should sing to it and who shouldn't, etc. If your kid isn't reading and conducting a symphony orchestra by age 3 people look at you funny. It seems having children and not having children is everybody's business.


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## LovelyLiz (Nov 22, 2009)

Tau said:


> for many women i know being a mother is still the highest achievement God can ever bless you with.





goofy girl said:


> Or ...when a question comes up like what is your greatest success, or what are you most proud of...it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS "My wonderful children".



YES. These. I was recently at a dinner for women working on our doctorates, and we had several female professors there who were supposed to encourage us as women in academia and to give us support and advice in getting through the process. The majority of the professors, at some point, said that the best thing they had ever done in their life was being a mother. 

It's always a hard thing for me to hear, because I like to think that the variety of other things people work for and spend their lives on (besides being moms) are also valuable, meaningful, fulfilling ways to spend a life. But when I hear women say this, it always stings, like if I don't become a mother I will be missing out on the greatest joy possible in life.

I don't know if I want kids. Until a few years ago I sub-consciously thought that being fat meant that I shouldn't/couldn't deal with a pregnancy. Then a thin friend said something like, "Women of all sizes get pregnant and have kids all the time." I was like, "Wha?"  And then realized I could if I wanted to. So, now, still not sure if I want to, but feel grateful knowing that I could if I did want to.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 22, 2009)

> If your kid isn't reading and conducting a symphony orchestra by age 3 people look at you funny.



Lol. I remember being with my dad in a toy store and him pointing to the "age appropriate" notices on boxes like "For ages 3-5" and he was convinced the manufacturers used "vanity aging" the way clothing manufacturers use vanity sizing. Like if a kid could reasonably use a toy at age 2, they'd say "For ages 4 and up" so parents would be convinced their kid was a genius.

As for the work thing, I've read numerous child free by choice websites, and one thing I've seen as far as ideas for employers to accomodate these issues is to replace the idea of "Family leave" with flat out "personal leave". In other words, you get a set number of personal days. You can use those to care for a newborn, go on your honeymoon, travel with your same sex partner to MA to get married, care for a sick grandparent, learn to skydive...whatever. The point being a work-life balance should not default to meaning "childrearing-work" balance.

I hope it's ok to post about a private conversation...


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 22, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Lol. I remember being with my dad in a toy store and him pointing to the "age appropriate" notices on boxes like "For ages 3-5" and he was convinced the manufacturers used "vanity aging" the way clothing manufacturers use vanity sizing. Like if a kid could reasonably use a toy at age 2, they'd say "For ages 4 and up" so parents would be convinced their kid was a genius.
> 
> As for the work thing, I've read numerous child free by choice websites, and one thing I've seen as far as ideas for employers to accomodate these issues is to replace the idea of "Family leave" with flat out "personal leave". In other words, you get a set number of personal days. You can use those to care for a newborn, go on your honeymoon, travel with your same sex partner to MA to get married, care for a sick grandparent, learn to skydive...whatever. The point being a work-life balance should not default to meaning "childrearing-work" balance.
> 
> I hope it's ok to post about a private conversation, but LillyBBW had told me about this previously and I mentioned it to a childfree former coworker. Her take on it is that people get jealous because let's face it, most people are physically capable of reproducing if they choose to but very few people have the inborn talent (pitch, ear, vocal range) and discipline and drive to get to level of being able to perform with a prestigious music group. So they want to pretend that their thing (breeding) is uberspecial while somebody else's thing *has to be* less important.



Don't get me wrong, I think that anywhere someone places their priorities is fine. If someone wants to be 'staciesmom' online I don't care. And yes, the first few months after a baby's birth are critical to a child and mother's develpement so that time off should be unquestionable. I just think that if you are childless by choice you should have some comparable personal priority time that you can take. If it's important to you to go on a month long survivalist retreat in the Fijis you should be able to do it without being seen as high falutin. Someone used that same argument you did about maybe some jealousy coming in to play. I just think it's a bit hypocritical to go on and on about how childbearing is such a blessed glorious high calling but then when someone chooses another high calling suddenly motherhood is hard work and everything else is recreational.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 22, 2009)

The other thing that *really sticks in my damned craw* is when people act as if childrearing is more important on a macro level than anything else. By and large, childrearing is important to the people doing it, not to anyone else. You're NOT doing the "most important job in the world". You're doing something you want to do because it fulfills some need in you. I think it's great if it's what you want, but by and large you're not breeding for the overall betterment of society, you're breeding because it makes you happy. I can think of a ton of jobs I consider "important"....like transplant surgeons, EMT's, the people who run recycling stations so the environment goes to hell at a slightly slower rate, scientists who are researching new drugs, etc.

And don't even get me started on those women who claim to be "The CEO of my family" or "Domestic Engineers". If you're a housewife and don't have a paying job, just say so. If you're proud of your choice there is no need to elevate it.


Yeah there's like a one in 487 Zillion chance your kid is gonna cure cancer but it's a lot more likely s/he is going to be a doctor-lawyer-Indian Chief like everyone else.

Or when some politicians want to raise taxes "for education" or everything is "for the children". As one childfree activist said "Ok, I'll pay more taxes for your kid but I can I get a refund if he decides to being a couple of Uzis to school and take out the lacrosse team?"

I was gonna end this rant...but one more thing. If you don't have a paying job then you don't have a paying job, but PLEASE can we get rid of the term "full time mother". *All mothers are full time mothers.* If you're a mom you're a mom all the time whether or not you're also out working.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 22, 2009)

Wow. A lot of nastiness here. Goofy, I understand why you started this thread, and I agree with what you said. I am wondering, though, why several people are using this as a platform to stomp all over people who choose to have children. What is the underlying reason?

Lilly, I've been in a similar situation, although my need to take leave wasn't due to a special talent. I needed leave to care for my ill father who lived in another state (at the time, he and my mother were divorced). It was not good timing for the company that I was working for -- right in the middle of the busy season, and another coworker was already out on maternity leave. My supervisor really ran me through the wringer when I requested the time through the FMLA. She demanded an explanation for why other family members couldn't step up, she wanted everything documented and she kept focusing on the "fact" that she didn't believe I was the only person capable of taking on the responsibility. The bottom line was that I had to get HR to peel her off my back, and I took the leave. She'd said, of course, not one word to the colleague who'd taken maternity leave. I agree with you in that leave is leave, and it shouldn't matter if it is to have a child or for other personal reasons. Everyone should have equal opportunities for it. Shortly after returning, I was "laid off" along with a few other people whom were commonly known as being deadweights. It was part of the reason that I decided to return to school and take my career into another direction. They actually did me a favor. I wish I could thank them


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 22, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Wow. A lot of nastiness here. Goofy, I understand why you started this thread, and I agree with what you said. I am wondering, though, why several people are using this as a platform to stomp all over people who choose to have children. What is the underlying reason?
> 
> Lilly, I've been in a similar situation, although my need to take leave wasn't due to a special talent. I needed leave to care for my ill father who lived in another state (at the time, he and my mother were divorced). It was not good timing for the company that I was working for -- right in the middle of the busy season, and another coworker was already out on maternity leave. My supervisor really ran me through the wringer when I requested the time through the FMLA. She demanded an explanation for why other family members couldn't step up, she wanted everything documented and she kept focusing on the "fact" that she didn't believe I was the only person capable of taking on the responsibility. The bottom line was that I had to get HR to peel her off my back, and I took the leave. She'd said, of course, not one word to the colleague who'd taken maternity leave. I agree with you in that leave is leave, and it shouldn't matter if it is to have a child or for other personal reasons. Everyone should have equal opportunities for it. Shortly after returning, I was "laid off" along with a few other people whom were commonly known as being deadweights. It was part of the reason that I decided to return to school and take my career into another direction. They actually did me a favor. I wish I could thank them



I think that a hostile attitude is a kneejerk response that can be attributed to a lot of different people. I've had lots of plumbs land in my hand musically. When it happens I just want to shout it from the rooftops and tell someone. Because it's a major part of my life it's very easily one of the things I talk about most. Yet at work and elsewhere I am v e r y careful about talking about it because people can be very nasty. In general people get that way when people talk about kids, new relationships, houses, cars, etc. Sometimes I don't want to stop to sift through pictures of my boss's grandchildren working in her garden last weekend. I make the appropriate 'oooh' and 'aaaah' noises but really I have more important things to do and I don't want to look at them. When people ask if I want to I feel put on the spot and obligated to say yes. I understand what it means to people so I oblige. Her kids look the same as the last batch of photos she brought in though. And no, I don't want to hear about what little John said. I'm not being mean, it's just not a part of something that is on my radar and after a while it gets too much. 

I just think that with anything there is a fine line between sharing good news and abuse. It's natural for people get irritated with it and let off steam when possible, but I do feel that sometimes things can go over the top. Someone's joy about their circumstance doesn't necessarily translate in to some indictment of your choice to find interest elsewhere. I think in the case of children though people tend to be much more militant when it comes to kids so it adds a little to the saltiness over it. In my work environment everybody has children, grandchildren and things they are remodeling at home that are simply a 'must see.' When I hear shrieks of, "Ooh look how CUTE!" in the distance I want to slither off to the ladies room before it hits. It's not jealousy, it's just overdone. They'd do the same if I came in with my stuff all the time.


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## comaseason (Nov 22, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Wow. A lot of nastiness here. Goofy, I understand why you started this thread, and I agree with what you said. I am wondering, though, why several people are using this as a platform to stomp all over people who choose to have children. What is the underlying reason?
> 
> Lilly, I've been in a similar situation, although my need to take leave wasn't due to a special talent. I needed leave to care for my ill father who lived in another state (at the time, he and my mother were divorced). It was not good timing for the company that I was working for -- right in the middle of the busy season, and another coworker was already out on maternity leave. My supervisor really ran me through the wringer when I requested the time through the FMLA. She demanded an explanation for why other family members couldn't step up, she wanted everything documented and she kept focusing on the "fact" that she didn't believe I was the only person capable of taking on the responsibility. The bottom line was that I had to get HR to peel her off my back, and I took the leave. She'd said, of course, not one word to the colleague who'd taken maternity leave. I agree with you in that leave is leave, and it shouldn't matter if it is to have a child or for other personal reasons. Everyone should have equal opportunities for it. Shortly after returning, I was "laid off" along with a few other people whom were commonly known as being deadweights. It was part of the reason that I decided to return to school and take my career into another direction. They actually did me a favor. I wish I could thank them



I don't know where the nastiness comes from TraciJo. Maybe it's like with anything that if one isn't careful they can become really resentful of just the little things that stack up. Sometimes it can feel really, and sometimes it feels childish to even say it, unfair as someone who's chosen specifically not to have children. I know that I have to watch myself that I don't get overly angry at certain things that are just not ever going to change.

There are just little things that happen. Little things that happen a lot. To give you an example for the last 4 years at my work my deductibles, out of pocket maximums and premiums have gone up for my health plan. In the same little benefits memo that they send out they tout how "we've managed to keep rates down for most of our employees - yay us, rah rah rah" with a little asterisk, guess what the asterisk is - the fact that they're raising the premiums, deductibles and maximums for anyone on Plan A. Plan A is all the single people with no dependents. The "most of our employees" that they are talking about are all those that are on Plan B/C the married with dependents plans.

My intention of bringing this up isn't to bash, it's just to illustrate one of the many little things that if people don't kind of...guard their heart, so to speak, against becoming resentful - it's a slippery slope, and it can happen without someone really knowing. And then you turn into a nasty bitter broad that no one wants to have a cup of nog with.

I honor people that choose to have children and do so responsibly and with the utmost care to their new children. My mom made a choice to have me and I'm thankful every day that she did so. My mom chose to stay home with me when I was young and put off going back to work even when it was to our family's financial detriment and I think it did something incredible for me. I feel like my mom is ALWAYS there for me, and that is a foundational belief that I have, and I believe it's due to that time she spent with me as a young child. I hope nothing I've said came off as "bashy", because I would never mean that as my intent.

Your experience with FMLA is absolutely unacceptable. That sucks that you had to go through that. I'm in the camp that FMLA should be up to the employee and you should just get a standard set of weeks and everyone can use them as they wish no questions asked. The fact that you would be taking time off under a traditional FMLA and your boss was questioning you about others in your family and whether they could step up. None of their damn business. 

I think that's part of the spirit of this thread actually. The theme of, it's none of your damn business - stay out of my family life (or lack thereof) unless I purposely invite you in.


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## comaseason (Nov 22, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> A rather odd things is that my kids all say they don't want to have kids, which I have to admit sometimes feels like an indictment to me, like I somehow instilled in them that this idea of motherhood was something besides joy (and a hell of a lot of hard work but also... joy). I know intellectually that I should be glad that they're not mindlessly procreating, since I see lots of that in my work and it's not good for anyone. But part of me thinks that if I were a good mom, my daughters would want to be like me... and therefore... a mom.



I wanted to offer up an alternative to what you feel may be an "indictment" to you. I don't want to have children for many reasons. But if I'm being honest one of the reasons I don't want to have children is I feel there's no way I could be as good as my mom, as far as from the loving/nurturing perspective. I'm kind of a "if you can't do it right, don't do it at all" type of person. In my mind my mom loved us right and good and perfect. I don't have it in me to do what she did. Even though I know from her example I'd have a hell of a lot better of an idea of how to love kids than some people. So maybe it isn't a matter of instilling an idea of motherhood being other than joy, it could be a matter of you just being a super excellent mother.

I don't know the situation, obviously, but wanted to propose an alternative based on my experience.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 22, 2009)

comaseason said:


> I don't know where the nastiness comes from TraciJo. Maybe it's like with anything that if one isn't careful they can become really resentful of just the little things that stack up. Sometimes it can feel really, and sometimes it feels childish to even say it, unfair as someone who's chosen specifically not to have children. I know that I have to watch myself that I don't get overly angry at certain things that are just not ever going to change.
> 
> There are just little things that happen. Little things that happen a lot. To give you an example for the last 4 years at my work my deductibles, out of pocket maximums and premiums have gone up for my health plan. In the same little benefits memo that they send out they tout how "we've managed to keep rates down for most of our employees - yay us, rah rah rah" with a little asterisk, guess what the asterisk is - the fact that they're raising the premiums, deductibles and maximums for anyone on Plan A. Plan A is all the single people with no dependents. The "most of our employees" that they are talking about are all those that are on Plan B/C the married with dependents plans.
> 
> ...



Oh, I get all of that. I didn't have a child until I was in my late 30's. And yes, I also hated that my tax dollars were funding programs that I felt I'd never get any benefit from, and that any time a "hit" was taken -- either at work, or more broadly, in the economy, it always seemed to hit adults without dependents the hardest. What I was referring to were more the callous-type remarks re: "breeders" and "spawn", etc. It's OK to not like children. IMO, though ... it shouldn't be OK to ridicule people who have made that choice to have them. When I was at a point in my life when I felt that I didn't want them (until my late 20's), I still didn't feel disgust or contempt towards families and their children. 

That FMLA experience was many years ago, and I'm beyond over it. Had I not been let go ("laid off" was a wonderful way of being able to collect unemployment for nearly a year while attending school ), I may never have gathered up the courage to make a change that ultimately has made me very happy. I agree with you -- it should be available to anyone to use, at any time, so long as it follows the intent that it was created for. Caring for an ill family member certainly fit that intent. I do remember feeling very bitter that I was given such a hard time about it while the woman who was out on full maternity leave was out of the office the year before for 3+ months on ... yep ... maternity leave  Not to mention, all the sick days to care for her kids. I used to think that parents abused the sick leave policy intentionally. Man, do I ever know better now. Kids really are sick that often.

I don't think it's fair for people to ask pointed, nosy questions or to assume the worst about those who choose to remain childless. By the same token, it's equally reprehensible to make nasty, judgmental assumptions about those who *do* choose to ... breed.


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 22, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Making babies seems to be rife with this kind of thing though. I've had conversations with friends of mine who decide not to breast feed and they say people are nearly having seizures right in front of them at the concept. The stratosphere is awash with all kinds of schools of thought on what foods to feed the baby, natural toys and products, early learning methods and programs, who should sing to it and who shouldn't, etc. If your kid isn't reading and conducting a symphony orchestra by age 3 people look at you funny. It seems having children and not having children is everybody's business.



Oh my gosh, yes. People assume some sort of investment in how other people are parenting. It starts when a woman is pregnant when people feel justified in touching her belly or offering opinions on what she's eating/drinking/doing, etc. As though the baby were somehow society's baby, not hers. Once the kid is born, it's worse. I caught SUCH shit because I was breastfeeding my child, by a woman who was smoking around her kids. (Uhm, lack of moral high ground, anyone?) She was horrified, and didn't think anyone did that anymore. Personally, my guess is that she didn't think at all, but that's just me.  I didn't say word one about her smoking around her (and my since it was a public play site outside a DQ) children, but once she started hassling me about my (discreet) public nursing, I gave her both barrels. 

I make a conscious effort to keep my nose out of other people's business, unless it directly affects me, or unless they ask. Unlike some of my colleagues, if my patient tells me she doesn't want to breastfeed, I hand her the bottle, instruct her on how to use it, and leave it at that. She doesn't get a lecture from me. But at least one of my colleagues says she won't give a mom a bottle and tries to talk them out of bottle feeding. Mind boggling. Just... mind boggling. I make sure that they have all the information about pros and cons of both, and then give them credit for being the adult they are and make their own decision.

I also caught a lot of flak (still do -- and the child is 17 years old) about the conscious, informed decision to have my youngest at home with a midwife. You'd think I was going to go out in the woods and have her raised by wolves or something. 

People are nosy. About everything -- how we birth, what we eat, what our weight is. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, given how they love to tell us what our health status is based on our weight, that they have opinions about our children as well. 



LillyBBBW said:


> I just think that if you are childless by choice you should have some comparable personal priority time that you can take. If it's important to you to go on a month long survivalist retreat in the Fijis you should be able to do it without being seen as high falutin.



So true, but this is one of the biggest faults with our employment system in the US. We just don't get the time off that our counterparts in other countries do. We had to fight for the paltry six weeks that parents get after the birth or adoption of a child, whereas in European countries they get MONTHS off, often with pay. We are working more and more hours, often for less pay, and dog forbid you want to take time to better yourself, relax, or whatever. You're consider a slacker (or worse). It's crazy. I think if taking six weeks off makes anyone a better, happier person (and therefore more productive and happier worker), then they should be able to do that. Same with job sharing. Why shouldn't two people be able to share a job?



LoveBHMS said:


> The other thing that *really sticks in my damned craw* is when people act as if childrearing is more important on a macro level than anything else. By and large, childrearing is important to the people doing it, not to anyone else.



I disagree. Granted, maybe it's not THE most important job in the world (every job is important in its own way and we need not judge some as better than others) but parenting absolutely affects other people besides your own child and you. How you raise your kids is enormously important in determining what kind of individual they will be. Granted, it's not the only influence, but if kids are taught from an early age about empathy, compassion, trust, love, fairness, etc etc etc from someone (ideally a parent, where it's modeled in the home) then it will affect their relationships with people in a positive way. The kid who doesn't learn empathy will be a shithead to other people. Same with the kid who doesn't learn to share, respect authority, etc etc etc. That kid, too, will affect others -- in a much more negative light.

This isn't to say that the parent is the only influence on how a child will develop. I have three kids who I raised the same and they are each individuals and each have had their struggles, so I've seen this on a very personal level. However, what parents do/what they say/ how they act IS usually considered the most influential aspect on how a child will develop. So to say it's meaningless is just as hyperbolic and wrong as saying it's the "only" thing that matters. Probably, like most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. 




comaseason said:


> I wanted to offer up an alternative to what you feel may be an "indictment" to you. I don't want to have children for many reasons. But if I'm being honest one of the reasons I don't want to have children is I feel there's no way I could be as good as my mom, as far as from the loving/nurturing perspective. I'm kind of a "if you can't do it right, don't do it at all" type of person. In my mind my mom loved us right and good and perfect. I don't have it in me to do what she did. Even though I know from her example I'd have a hell of a lot better of an idea of how to love kids than some people. So maybe it isn't a matter of instilling an idea of motherhood being other than joy, it could be a matter of you just being a super excellent mother.
> 
> I don't know the situation, obviously, but wanted to propose an alternative based on my experience.



Thank you for this.  It totally made my day. My kids say that they look up to me and inspire me. I guess I should know better than think that means they'll make the same choices I do; in fact, I'm enormously proud of them that they make choices -- political and personal -- that are far different than mine.


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## goofy girl (Nov 22, 2009)

There's way too much to respond to right now, but I don't know where the hate is coming from either, and it certainly was not my intention. The point was to be able to discuss uncomfortable situations regarding being childless and the relationships that non-mom's have with mom's. Not to hate all over mothers and babies. 

I also wanted to add, that I *DO* think that Momming is a full time job...like, until the day you die. This is one reason I am so adamant not to have kids. It's the one responsibility that you will ever have that you can never just give up on. Well..maybe not the only one, but there are very few, including parenting. You are a parent 24/7, for the rest of your life and while I can respect that I personally don't want it. 

Vickie- I had never thought of my Mom's feelings, just that I feel badly that she won't have grandchildren but it never occurred to me that she would feel it was some reflection on her. She wasn't a terrific Mom but she did her best, and one of the reasons I don't want kids is not because my mom sucked or anything but because I could see how hard and exhausting and draining it is. It might be the most fulfilling but I'm not cut out for the kind of work it takes to be a parent.

I'm really very sorry of anyone has been offended by my posts in this thread.


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 22, 2009)

Am I the only one who thinks part of the reason I don't want children IS because of my parents less than stellar job at parenting? 

I mean, it's not the ONLY reason.. I wouldn't even say it's the biggest reason necessarily.. but I guess it's just that.. I look at the way my parents have "parented" me..especially in the last 5 years or so and I'm like, god, I do NOT want to be that person to someone else. I mean, I don't want to give anyone the wrong idea.. there was no child abuse or substance abuse or anything going on but my parents had a messy divorce and I was caught in the middle of it (constantly being asked about each other, trying to get me to take sides, my mom forcing me to help her stalk my dad both on the internet and by following him around in the car) and also had to suffer through 3 years of crappy treatment by my mom & her alcoholic boyfriend who lived with us until he passed away in February of this year. I more or less lost my mother over the course of the last 5 years.. even now when we see each other it's like, she'll pencil me in for a lunch date once every two weeks or so. I sort of just want to be like MOM, I'M YOUR 18 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER.. not someone you spend 45 minutes with at a cafe discussing the weather. Anyway, lot's of bitching about my mother but my dad isn't much better.. my whole point anyway is that lots of people who shouldn't have children do, like my parents.. whether it be by accident or what (I was an accident.) My parents are naturally selfish people. They're both intelligent, have good jobs & college degrees and they're generally nice people.. but that doesn't make them fit to be parents. I just see a lot of myself in them and I don't want to put a child through the crap I've been through with my parents.

I mean, no hate to those who do want kids. If I've come off that way in this thread, I apologize.


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## mossystate (Nov 23, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> > And don't even get me started on those women who claim to be "The CEO of my family" or "Domestic Engineers". If you're a housewife and don't have a paying job, just say so. If you're proud of your choice there is no need to elevate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 23, 2009)

I was the first to introduce foul language in to this discussion with the term 'spawn.' My apologies if it made some people twitch, this is an actual word I use that is not intended as anything negative at all. I really would like to have children some day and there are times I use the words like 'spawn' and 'offspring' just for fun but it's not meant to put down having children in any way. I tend to be melodramatic in my speech patterns so I apologize if anyone was offended.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 23, 2009)

I think I got a bit overenthused with the direction of the thread. I honestly just really dislike kids and I dislike a lot of parenting behavior that i've observed and I just kinda vented.

I'm sorry if anyone got offended. A lot of what I posted is stuff I'd post on a Childfree by Choice board so I just sort of went off in that vein.



> Again......the full time mother gets to decide what she calls herself......and why. Are they stepping on your toes?...and they horning in on your turf? You might not respect the job...the work ( in fact, I would say that you don't )...but for someone who says people have the right to live their lives...let mothers define themselves. They are not messing with you.



Actually I find the use of the term to be disrespectful in and of itself. The implication of "I'm a full time mom" is that women who work are not full time moms when that's not the case. I realize it's a bit retro, but at some point it starts to remind me of the old Betty Friedan book "The Problem that has no Name" where women can't quite put their finger on why they're so unhappy when they have what they're supposed to want. Just my opinion, but to me it's a lot of overcompensating when women toss around silly notions of "Being the CEO of my family" or throwing around financial statistics on what being a housewife is "worth".


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 23, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think I got a bit overenthused with the direction of the thread. I honestly just really dislike kids and I dislike a lot of parenting behavior that i've observed and I just kinda vented.
> 
> I'm sorry if anyone got offended. A lot of what I posted is stuff I'd post on a Childfree by Choice board so I just sort of went off in that vein.
> 
> ...



I agree. This goes along the lines of something I mentioned earlier about there being a lot of schools of thought on how a person may parent. It kind of annoys me when parents who are able to stay home with their kids will often take a superior attitude towards those who have to work and trust their child to a caregiver. Parenthood is rife with finger pointing and innuendo that's ennough to turn any parent into a nervous wreck. The term "full time mom" does translate directly in to "does not work" in my mind. It's not a judgement call against her any more than "working mom", just that I can't find it in myself to glorify one circumstance over another. Each has its merits and drawbacks that families need to work out for themselves.


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 23, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> The term "full time mom" does translate directly in to "does not work" in my mind. It's not a judgement call against her any more than "working mom", just that I can't find it in myself to glorify one circumstance over another. Each has its merits and drawbacks that families need to work out for themselves.



Unfortunately, your opinions are the minority. When I was a SAHM I caught a lot of crap from the "working moms" that worked with my hubby at Microsoft. I think they were bitter that they were "unable" to stay home with their kids, but it's not like it's my fault. (Also, tell me that someone with a BMW, a Lexxus and a half million dollar house -- in the 1990's -- in Seattle "needs", financially, to work). It's not any of my business what people choose to do in their own families, but have the same courtesy extended to me might have been nice.

In taking this a step further, though, I wonder if part of the reason women are so hard on each other when it comes to how we raise our families is how little support we receive from our culture for what we do. Back when, in post WW II America, most women stayed at home, expectations were high -- dinner on the table, a clean house, clean kids, etc etc etc., and a whole host of products were created to help us accomplish the near-impossible -- an immaculate house when one is raising small children.

It still, however, takes a lot of time and energy, and when a woman doesn't work outside the home, she obviously has more time to get things done than when she works full time and is out of the house 10-12 hours a day. It seems that now, even though more than half of us also work outside the home, the expectations are still in place that we "do it all". Not our husbands. Us. I think any time a group of people are stressed, there are resentments toward the "other group" that they perceive has it easier or better.

What would be really awesome is if we could support each other's choices. But then that's true of just about everything, not just motherhood.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 23, 2009)

> What would be really awesome is if we could support each other's choices. But then that's true of just about everything, not just motherhood.



Yes except they're not always choices. The "choice" to work or not is a reality for a minority of families. Most women have to work to put food on the table, not an extra Lexus or BMW in the driveway. The choice to parent or not may be contingent on dozens of things ranging from physical health to being gay and living in a place where gays can't adopt. There may be family pressure to do one thing or another.


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## LillyBBBW (Nov 23, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> Unfortunately, your opinions are the minority. When I was a SAHM I caught a lot of crap from the "working moms" that worked with my hubby at Microsoft. I think they were bitter that they were "unable" to stay home with their kids, but it's not like it's my fault. (Also, tell me that someone with a BMW, a Lexxus and a half million dollar house -- in the 1990's -- in Seattle "needs", financially, to work). It's not any of my business what people choose to do in their own families, but have the same courtesy extended to me might have been nice.
> 
> In taking this a step further, though, I wonder if part of the reason women are so hard on each other when it comes to how we raise our families is how little support we receive from our culture for what we do. Back when, in post WW II America, most women stayed at home, expectations were high -- dinner on the table, a clean house, clean kids, etc etc etc., and a whole host of products were created to help us accomplish the near-impossible -- an immaculate house when one is raising small children.
> 
> ...



I've trained myself to be very careful what I say around moms. So much unseen crap that goes on. My sister was all in a bunch about a comment the lady who runs the daycare gave her about her son's use of a pacifyer. She said in grave tones that she thought it was getting past time that the boy be weaned off of it but it was clear to her (and to me) that he's not quite ready yet. As my sister yammered on about it I was in a bit of disbelief over how overwhelmed she was about what this lady said. I couldnt figure out why she didn't just look the lady in the eye and tell her no he's not ready yet. She gets all curdled up about what that woman says and I've never known my sister to be like that. I've seen otherwise strong opinionated women turn in to patsys when it comes to their child. They can be talked in to almost anything. My friend simply can't breast feed and wasn't breastfed herself, yet some woman on the bus convinced her that her child was going to be a weak retarded felon because she was feeding her with a bottle. Crazy stuff that is in most cases completely unnecessary. Fears are easily stoked when it comes to your children and your usual armor tends to be paper thin, especially with a first child. 

Likewise some of the mechanisms mothers use to stare down these kinds of judgments can turn in to judgements of their own. The fight for dignity in the face of public vitriol towards breast feeding women in turn can really irk some people who've chosen not to. People get so resentful that nasty things are said similar to things that have happened in this thread. It seems that motherhood in particular is an inbelievably vulnerable state that often gets overlooked and underestimated. And people DO love to criticize mothers at the drop of a hat. Your baby cries and you can't shut him up? You're a horrible mother.


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## Ruffie (Nov 23, 2009)

"It still, however, takes a lot of time and energy, and when a woman doesn't work outside the home, she obviously has more time to get things done than when she works full time and is out of the house 10-12 hours a day. It seems that now, even though more than half of us also work outside the home, the expectations are still in place that we "do it all". Not our husbands. Us. I think any time a group of people are stressed, there are resentments toward the "other group" that they perceive has it easier or better."
This is what I was getting at in posting this topic. And I thank you Vickie for reiterating it! I get tired for women being judged no matter what their choices are, no matter how "well" they seem to be doing all for no good reason.


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 23, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Yes except they're not always choices. The "choice" to work or not is a reality for a minority of families. Most women have to work to put food on the table, not an extra Lexus or BMW in the driveway. The choice to parent or not may be contingent on dozens of things ranging from physical health to being gay and living in a place where gays can't adopt. There may be family pressure to do one thing or another.



Yeah, I know. I've actually lived as a mother and wife, survived on very little, and eventually made the choice to go back to school to get my degree. I understand -- first hand -- all about choices and the influences that women face when making them. What I wish is that we didn't have to offer explanations or excuses. We should just be able to say, if we want to work, that we wants to work. And we shouldn't get shit for it. By the same token, if a woman wants to stay home and can afford it and wants to make the sacrifices necessary for most of us to do so, she should be able to do that with her head held high. She should even be able to call herself a Domestic Goddess if that makes her happy. 



LillyBBBW said:


> I've trained myself to be very careful what I say around moms. So much unseen crap that goes on. My sister was all in a bunch about a comment the lady who runs the daycare gave her about her son's use of a pacifyer. She said in grave tones that she thought it was getting past time that the boy be weaned off of it but it was clear to her (and to me) that he's not quite ready yet. As my sister yammered on about it I was in a bit of disbelief over how overwhelmed she was about what this lady said. I couldnt figure out why she didn't just look the lady in the eye and tell her no he's not ready yet. She gets all curdled up about what that woman says and I've never known my sister to be like that. I've seen otherwise strong opinionated women turn in to patsys when it comes to their child. They can be talked in to almost anything. My friend simply can't breast feed and wasn't breastfed herself, yet some woman on the bus convinced her that her child was going to be a weak retarded felon because she was feeding her with a bottle. Crazy stuff that is in most cases completely unnecessary. Fears are easily stoked when it comes to your children and your usual armor tends to be paper thin, especially with a first child.
> 
> Likewise some of the mechanisms mothers use to stare down these kinds of judgments can turn in to judgements of their own. The fight for dignity in the face of public vitriol towards breast feeding women in turn can really irk some people who've chosen not to. People get so resentful that nasty things are said similar to things that have happened in this thread. It seems that motherhood in particular is an inbelievably vulnerable state that often gets overlooked and underestimated. And people DO love to criticize mothers at the drop of a hat. Your baby cries and you can't shut him up? You're a horrible mother.



This. All of it. So true. You want to bring a mother to her knees? Question her choices as a mother. This may be true for fathers as well (I'm not sure) but it seems a real visceral response that women have when our parenting choices are questioned. It seems to somehow cut to our very identity as women, which is really too bad.


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 23, 2009)

Ruffie said:


> "It still, however, takes a lot of time and energy, and when a woman doesn't work outside the home, she obviously has more time to get things done than when she works full time and is out of the house 10-12 hours a day. It seems that now, even though more than half of us also work outside the home, the expectations are still in place that we "do it all". Not our husbands. Us. I think any time a group of people are stressed, there are resentments toward the "other group" that they perceive has it easier or better."
> This is what I was getting at in posting this topic. And I thank you Vickie for reiterating it! I get tired for women being judged no matter what their choices are, no matter how "well" they seem to be doing all for no good reason.



I'm glad you started this thread, so that we can maybe come to a better understanding of the choices we make. I'm still pissed that even though I in fact work MORE hours than my husband, the lion's share of household responsibility falls on me. A lot of it is my own fault -- I take it on, because it bothers me more than it bothers him. But still, if the house was a mess when his mother showed up... who would be judged? Him? Hell no. Me.


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## Ruffie (Nov 23, 2009)

Yes exactly Vickie why I posted the thread women's roles in society today I was thinking of all of this.
When my husband went through a slump as our children were growing up and lost two jobs and was unemployed or underemployed it fell to me to work. I didn't mind cause I had worked since I was 11 years old and have a strong work ethic. The problem was that my job was from 4-10 nightly running our arts centre programs. So Grant was the one involved in the parent council, taking kids to after school and evening activities and was touted as the "good parent" AND HE WAS! But what I resented was people assuming he was a single parent and the only one that cared abut our boys cause he was the face that was seen. I worked in a job were I was harassed, had boss in mediation twice, underpaid and not allowed to move up because I had to make sure there was a steady income for the family. If the house wasn't clean, I heard about it from the MIL and other relatives. 
I have a lot of regrets about missing out on so much of my children's childhood. And have expressed it to my boys. They do understand and have reassured me that they could always count on me throughout the years and I suppose that is all that should matter to me. Everyone's choice to have them or not is their own, just as everyone's right to define a role for themselves.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 23, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> I'm glad you started this thread, so that we can maybe come to a better understanding of the choices we make. I'm still pissed that even though I in fact work MORE hours than my husband, the lion's share of household responsibility falls on me. A lot of it is my own fault -- I take it on, because it bothers me more than it bothers him. But still, if the house was a mess when his mother showed up... who would be judged? Him? Hell no. Me.



Vick, this is frustrating for me, as well. But I do have to admit, my husband *does* make an attempt. The problem is, it's not up to my standard. When I think "clean the house" I'm thinking of ALL the necessary tasks, including the always pleasant toilet bowl scrubbing, mopping, cleaning dust bunnies out from under beds, etc. He thinks: If it looks clean, it's clean. If it looks tidy, it doesn't matter what's shoved into closets, under beds, into random drawers. I get so frustrated, having to ask and explain and then RE-ASK and RE-EXPLAIN what my vision of a clean house is, I just eventually give up and do it myself. That's my bad. My choices are to walk him through the process or to accept that his version of clean will never match my own ... and that's OK. I believe that this is a common problem for women. We've grown up, in many ways having been TAUGHT that keeping a nice home is in our domain, and we have our own ideas of what that means. Despite having a career that rivals my husband's in terms of hours worked, I still have a very hard time with letting go of certain things ... like, the sense of guilt that the hallway closet could, at any time, burst open and spew forth mounds of old coats, shoes that haven't been worn in 10+ years, unrecycled & unwanted Christmas gifts, tax records from 1994, etc etc. I want things cleaned MY way. I have to accept that if that's going to be done ... it's me that will be doing it. It's not worth it to me to coach, nag, oversee and THEN do it all over again myself. 

I'm not suggesting that this is how things run in your home, Vick. I haven't a clue. I just think it is a common theme among women. Also, I do know that you are somewhat of a whiz and an expert yourself ... so I suspect that, like me, you have pretty damn good ideas of how you want things done yourself


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## Paquito (Nov 23, 2009)

I think it's fine to not want kids. I certainly don't, for numerous reasons, not the least of which is that I don't handle kids well. Yea, I'm young and that mindset might change, but most of my life has been avoiding the little kids, even when I was their age. I was always hanging with the older people and adults. I've just never had the patience or the "ahhlooktheirsocutecuztheyjustsaidmommy" gene (get back to me when they recite the Emancipation Proclamation or something difficult). I don't babysit of any sort, and frankly my enjoyment of a child ends in about 23 seconds within meeting them.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 23, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Vick, this is frustrating for me, as well. But I do have to admit, my husband *does* make an attempt. The problem is, it's not up to my standard. When I think "clean the house" I'm thinking of ALL the necessary tasks, including the always pleasant toilet bowl scrubbing, mopping, cleaning dust bunnies out from under beds, etc.


I feel pretty doggone lucky because my husband does all the housecleaning. Art even does a better job than I ever could because I'm simply too fat to reach everywhere or climb under stuff. There are some things I wish he could do better or differently, but I don't have much cause for complaint. Usually I just stay out of his way! He's an engineer, so I'm a little surprised he hasn't converted a belt-sander into a high-powered toilet scrubber. However the time he cleaned dust bunnies under our bed, believe it or not, he actually *took apart the entire bed* so he could get at them with no obstructions. Granted, he also did that so he could flip the mattress and reposition the 2X4s he had installed to replace the flimsy slats. Okay, honey, whatever you think is best. :smitten:

However, I don't let him anywhere near the laundry, except I do trust him to fold the sheets.

Anyway, division of household labor like this gave everyone a good idea that we are a little (or a lot) non-traditional in our marriage. So apart from a few persistent types, most people believed us when we didn't particularly want children.


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 23, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Vick, this is frustrating for me, as well. But I do have to admit, my husband *does* make an attempt. The problem is, it's not up to my standard. When I think "clean the house" I'm thinking of ALL the necessary tasks, including the always pleasant toilet bowl scrubbing, mopping, cleaning dust bunnies out from under beds, etc. He thinks: If it looks clean, it's clean. If it looks tidy, it doesn't matter what's shoved into closets, under beds, into random drawers. I get so frustrated, having to ask and explain and then RE-ASK and RE-EXPLAIN what my vision of a clean house is, I just eventually give up and do it myself. That's my bad.



I hear you. And I know there are things that really bug Burtimus and he takes care of them, but the bathroom could go to hell and he wouldn't care. The upside is the same, that he doesn't care, which is good because if I don't do it, he won't be upset by that. In the years when we had little kids, the house was always in some level of untidy if not out and out danger of being condemned. Between my mobility issues and the kids it was more than I could handle. Dog help me if I had a hubby who wanted a Leave it to Beaver type home -- cause that just ain't me. 

He really does try, and if I tell him what I want done, he does an excellent job without complaint, unlike my ex who gave me nothing but static (and bruises, truth be told). But I guess I just wish sometimes that I didn't have to say, "Hey, the toilet is dirty, wouldya mind cleaning it?" He has done that, and I appreciate it, but most of the time it makes me crazier than him, usually when I'm home alone, so I just go ahead and do it. And then grumble. To myself, naturally. 

OTOH, he dealt with pet stink for many years (still does) which makes him a saint since he really didn't/doesn't want pets.


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## Tina (Nov 24, 2009)

womanforconversation said:


> It's always a hard thing for me to hear, because I like to think that the variety of other things people work for and spend their lives on (besides being moms) are also valuable, meaningful, fulfilling ways to spend a life. But when I hear women say this, it always stings, like if I don't become a mother I will be missing out on the greatest joy possible in life.


But the thing is that you could go ahead and have a child and still not feel that way. It's such an individual thing. For some, they really do feel it's their greatest achievement, no matter what else they've done. For others, not so much. And it's even harder when a child has problems and there are struggles and you feel like you've really screwed up or that you can't do anything right. There is so much guilt mixed in. 

_As women_, it seems that the guilt comes with the womb. If we don't have children, we are somehow not fulfilling our supposed biological imperatives. If we do have children, then there's the dilemma. We feel guilty if we go to work, because then we'll be leaving our child; if we don't work we feel guilty because we're not contributing financially to the household coffers.

And looking at it through a 2nd wave feminist filter, there can be disdain from those who feel that having children is almost akin to abandoning 'the cause,' which I personally find ridiculous. To me, feminism is all about choices and having the freedom to make those choices.

I think the real shame is that no matter _what_ a woman does she is screwed and wrong. And the worst thing is when other women lay guilt trips on fellow women. It's bad enough that society as a whole and those men who believe they know what a woman's place is puts their puny two cents in gets disdainful and judgmental, but when it's fellow women, to me it seems even worse.


LoveBHMS said:


> Lol. I remember being with my dad in a toy store and him pointing to the "age appropriate" notices on boxes like "For ages 3-5" and he was convinced the manufacturers used "vanity aging" the way clothing manufacturers use vanity sizing. Like if a kid could reasonably use a toy at age 2, they'd say "For ages 4 and up" so parents would be convinced their kid was a genius.
> 
> I hope it's ok to post about a private conversation...


No, it's really not. Think about it.


LoveBHMS said:


> I think I got a bit overenthused with the direction of the thread. I honestly just really dislike kids and I dislike a lot of parenting behavior that i've observed and I just kinda vented.
> 
> I'm sorry if anyone got offended. A lot of what I posted is stuff I'd post on a Childfree by Choice board so I just sort of went off in that vein.


I'm glad that this was already settled, as I didn't want to have to moderate any flames in the thread and was glad to see it settled between people themselves. Still, it's no more okay to use negative lingo from those on childfree sites that are disparaging to mothers than it would be to use negative lingo on mothers' sites that address disdainful ideas about those who don't want children.

Personally, I find value in each decision and think that each and every woman should be able to decide for herself what she will do. Of course, it's often circumstance that can dictate, but still.


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## comaseason (Nov 24, 2009)

Tina said:


> _As women_, it seems that the guilt comes with the womb. If we don't have children, we are somehow not fulfilling our supposed biological imperatives.



I have a cousin who cannot conceive. She and her husband have tried for years and years to have children of their own and can't. They have also tried to adopt and have had an awful time with the American adoption system. The last time I went to visit them she and I talked. I offered her my goods cause clearly I'm not using them. She thought I was joking, but I wasn't. We talked and decided that due to the cost and all the other stuff that would go along with it, it was not feasible.

But here I am with a perfectly good house for a fetus and I don't want kids. And there she is absolutely heartbroken that she can't have any. Honestly I get choked up thinking about it now, because she would be such an awesome mother, and her husband an equally awesome dad. Do I feel guilty about that? You bet your sweet bippy I do, even if it's something entirely out of my control. I do hate to think there's a perfectly good womb wasted on me.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 24, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Or when some politicians want to raise taxes "for education" or everything is "for the children". As one childfree activist said "Ok, I'll pay more taxes for your kid but I can I get a refund if he decides to being a couple of Uzis to school and take out the lacrosse team?"


I'm perfectly willing to pay taxes for education even though we don't have children. After all, we want a well-educated workforce to run our society, particularly to help maintain us during our golden years in the lifestyle to which we we are accustomed.  On the other hand, these tax increases are promoted as "for the children" year in and year out, but an equal or greater amount of money always seems to come out of the rest of the budget, so in the long run the tax increases "for education" actually end up being used for everything but education. That really burns me up 

Oh well, despite everything wrong with our society, as a Pollyanna I find there's a lot more right with it. It sure beats being a hunter-gatherer. 


comaseason said:


> But here I am with a perfectly good house for a fetus and I don't want kids. And there she is absolutely heartbroken that she can't have any. Honestly I get choked up thinking about it now, because she would be such an awesome mother, and her husband an equally awesome dad. Do I feel guilty about that? You bet your sweet bippy I do, even if it's something entirely out of my control. I do hate to think there's a perfectly good womb wasted on me.


We are so blessed that we don't particularly want kids and we can't conceive them anyway. I'm not overly religious but methinx there's a master plan to everything in our lives, *if* we are intelligent enough to follow the hints. Kinda like, there must be a good reason I'm so big (unless I'm merely rationalizing a _fait accompli_, but I doubt it). Methinx also that having children is absolutely the right thing for most people to do, just not us.

Meanwhile my not-so-sneaky policy is to spoil our nieces and nephews (and eventually our grandnieces and grandnephews) royally rotten, so I can consume some of the collateral goodies. "Hey, kids, who wants pie (or cake or ice cream) with your Aunt Sue and Uncle Art?" :eat2: Yes indeedy, it's hard work, but during the Halloween / Thanksgiving / Christmas / New Year holiday season, I roll up my sleeves, loosen my waistband, and do my aunt-ly duties. Then I give the kiddos back to their parents. Good heavens, I'm turning into my grandmothers! Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 24, 2009)

comaseason said:


> I have a cousin who cannot conceive. She and her husband have tried for years and years to have children of their own and can't. They have also tried to adopt and have had an awful time with the American adoption system. The last time I went to visit them she and I talked. I offered her my goods cause clearly I'm not using them. She thought I was joking, but I wasn't. We talked and decided that due to the cost and all the other stuff that would go along with it, it was not feasible.
> 
> But here I am with a perfectly good house for a fetus and I don't want kids. And there she is absolutely heartbroken that she can't have any. Honestly I get choked up thinking about it now, because she would be such an awesome mother, and her husband an equally awesome dad. Do I feel guilty about that? You bet your sweet bippy I do, even if it's something entirely out of my control. I do hate to think there's a perfectly good womb wasted on me.



Ironic chuckle here, because my youngest sister offered me the goods too. It was the sweetest thing, and I will love her forever for it. I didn't take her up on it because pregnancy isn't easy for her. She's had medical problems associated with the latter stages and delivery of her two children. We couldn't be responsible for putting her in any kind of position to compromise her health (especially not since she has two children who rely on her). It is a wonderfully selfless gesture on your part. I doubt you even realize the scope of it, and how much your cousin must love and appreciate you for the gesture. 

I have an almost brand new (used maybe a dozen times), top of the line treadmill with all of the bells 'n whistles that I never use. Should I feel guilty for spending that $$$ and ... uh, wait. Bad analogy. Of course I should feel guilty about that  But you? Feel guilty because you aren't using your perfectly good womb? No. A gazillionty times, no. I'm sure you know that already. I'm just reconfirming it. 

All the best to your cousin. I hope that one day, when she least expects it, the opportunity of a lifetime lands in her lap. That's what happened to my husband and I, at a point when we were just about to give up altogether. I wouldn't wish that level of despair on anyone. But the joy of an opportunity, the stars aligning and everything falling right ... into ... place ... it's a special feeling, and THAT, I'd wish on everyone (no matter what the desire happens to be).


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## BubbleButtBabe (Nov 25, 2009)

Ruffie said:


> If the house wasn't clean, I heard about it from the MIL and other relatives.




I had the best FIL in the world bless his soul..He came over to my house 1 day while I was gone to talk to my ex..He told my ex that he needed to step up and help me around the house and with the kids because I was killing myself..FIL told him I was working the same 8 hours he was in a job that was just as hard if not harder then the ex and it was a shame that I was having to burn my candle at both ends..I would go to their house on Sat and spend most of the day sleeping because I was wore out..So the ex would stay up late with my son and do the vacuuming,dishes and some of the laundry..Surprised me when my ex told me what his Dad said since he was very chauvinistic!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 25, 2009)

My ex cleans his own house/mess now. Best decision I ever made in my life...both times.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 29, 2009)

One of my cousins had a daughter a couple months ago and everybody saw her at one of our Thanksgiving gatherings. We were all very happy for her, and most of the women wanted to hold the baby, but I politely declined. After the girl spit up on a few shoulders, or suddenly needed her diaper changed, the wisdom of my opting out became more apparent. Although some seemed to enjoy being the recipients. 

However I do have my niche. When the kiddos are a couple years old, that's when they love to sit on their big fat Aunt Sue's lap. The other women are more than willing to relinquish that duty to me. If I happen to have my semi-regular after-dinner hiccups, the kiddos get a thrill ride too.  Years later I realized that children are forming their earliest memories at that age. As my various cousins, nieces, nephews etc. grew up, they told me that being nestled in their Aunt Sue's warm embrace was a good memory. Without realizing it, I had indoctrinated some of them that big + soft = good.


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## thatgirl08 (Nov 29, 2009)

On Thanksgiving, my uncle's (related to me through marriage) sister (not really related to me) came over with her adopted daughter.. she's very cute and everything but to be completely honest, I was not interested at all in holding her or anything but my entire family made a BIG deal out of it. She's two now, so I was a little more willing than last year, but I really didn't want to play games with her or anything but for some reason she was drawn to me and she kept putting me on the spot.. not intentionally obviously since she's two but every time I saw her dragging something over my way to play I was like NOOOOO. My entire family though was like all pissy about it because I didn't want to hold her and they kept teasing me for being awkward around her. My grandfather made a comment about how when I grow up (I guess 18 = 10 in this situation) I'll love children because all women do. oh. lord.


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## Tracyarts (Nov 30, 2009)

I don't want kids, don't particularly like them (I don't like babies at all and want nothing to do with them, but can tolerate older kids and even enjoy their presence when they are not being bratty or cranky.)

One of the reasons why my mom stopped having much of anything to do with me after I got married was because she realized that I was serious about not wanting kids. My dad was totally okay with it, and while I am sure he would have liked to have had grandkids, it wasn't something that was important to him like it was to my mom. 

I remember at my dad's funeral, one of my "country cousins" and his wife came up and asked me where were my kids and were shocked when I said I don't have any. They asked why. I said well parenting just isn't for me. That wasn't good enough and they kept prying and asking completely inappropriate questions like whether I was infertile because if so I could adopt. I told them the truth. That my husband and I don't really like kids all that much but really like the life we have without them. My cousin was just taken aback and shocked, but his wife got SO pissed and snarky and said "I feel so sad for your daddy, he would have really enjoyed some grandkids, too bad you didn't want to give him any before he died". I never understood why my not having, wanting, or liking kids should matter to her so much that it made her say something so hateful. And it was said in a hateful manner, it was obvious by the look on her face and tone in her voice. 

I have had people say that I need to just have a baby, because I will be glad I did once it's born and I "fall in love" with it. Sorry but that's a crock of shit. I have known women who had kids they did not want and chose to keep them anyway for whatever reason. Those women were NEVER happy. And made sure their husbands and kids were never happy either. IMHO, all kids deserve to be wanted, by both parents. 

Tracy


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 30, 2009)

> *I have had people say that I need to just have a baby, because I will be glad I did once it's born and I "fall in love" with it. *Sorry but that's a crock of shit. I have known women who had kids they did not want and chose to keep them anyway for whatever reason. Those women were NEVER happy. And made sure their husbands and kids were never happy either. IMHO, all kids deserve to be wanted, by both parents.



What an awful concept. I'm not saying it never happens; I do know a man whose wife told him she was going off the pill whether he liked it or not. He did not want kids at that time but did want them eventually and he adores his daughter. Ironically though, it killed their marriage that she did it when he wasn't ready. But the idea that you should just *hope* it works, that you just love the kid when it's here is downright scary. What if you DON'T just fall in love with it? There isn't anything you can do about it because now it's here for the rest of your life.

It's also scary how common that mindset is. My friend was on the fence when she was younger. Her husband didn't want kids and he was an active alcoholic and that was pushing her towards the direction of not doing it. She was telling a coworker about her situation and the coworker said she should just "go ahead and get pregnant anyway" and her husband would adjust to it. My friend was horrified and said she loved and respected her husband too much to force parenthood on him and it would not be fair to the baby to have it born to a father who had not chosen to do so.


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## mergirl (Nov 30, 2009)

I always felt weird that i never really liked babies. I find them boring. All they do is shit, eat, spew , shit, eat, spew...oh and cry. My friend just had a baby and she brought her over to our house and i felt the same. Except for when she was about to cry and i made a farting noise and she smiled i did feel a slight stirring and a genuine "awww" came out of me. I pretty much spent whole time she was here thinking i am so glad i don't have babies. I have never ever felt i would want them. I used to wonder if it was something to do with my sexuality but then i realised a lot of fully fledged members of the ladies in non-sensible shoes club, felt the same way. 
I spent most of the time i was holding my friends baby saying "gah..she hates me!.. gah. she smells..gah she just puked.. gah!!" ..meanwhile GD just picked her up when she was crying and managed to make her fall asleep. 
I don't want to pass on my crazy genetics to any poor human either. 
I do like kids, when they get to the talking stage and i can communicate to them how much i hate them!! (lmao..wee joke). I just find kids more fun and less worrying. I like that they can tell you when they are hungry and go to the toilet themselves. If i was ever to adopt or foster i think it would be kids who were 5 yrs or older. 
In Scotland gay people are actually just being allowed to adopt and foster as a couple-This was passed a few years ago but it was just in October that legislation was passed. This is good because i have a lot of gay friends who have wanted children all their lives and they now can, a lot of which could provide a better home for a child than many people who just have sex and get a child, no matter what thier capabilities are..
Erm..anyway.. what was the question?
I think i would remain childless by choice but would perhaps consider fostering at some point.


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## lypeaches (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm way late to the thread...but I'll just add that you can put me down on the childless by choice column. I do not relate well to children, and I don't particularly like them. 

I knew it from a young age...at 13 lots of my friends were babysitting, but you literally couldn't pay me to do it. I have always been in the "never say never" camp, because I realized that at some point the urge could hit, but it just never did. I'm 45 now. Fortunately DH felt the same way. 

I am lucky though in that no one has ever really bothered me about it. Don't know why.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 15, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> I'm way late to the thread...but I'll just add that you can put me down on the childless by choice column. I do not relate well to children, and I don't particularly like them.
> 
> I knew it from a young age...at 13 lots of my friends were babysitting, but you literally couldn't pay me to do it. I have always been in the "never say never" camp, because I realized that at some point the urge could hit, but it just never did. I'm 45 now. Fortunately DH felt the same way.
> 
> I am lucky though in that no one has ever really bothered me about it. Don't know why.



All i can say is....what if you regret it? Not having kids. Well then...you regret it. If you have kids and you wind up feeling you don't want to be a parent, you wind up angry, stressed, depressed, and miserable. Not good for parents or child.

I don't like kids, never did and never will. Anyone who has the urge to co-parent would do so with another partner. I have never regretted following my innate push.


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## AnnMarie (Dec 15, 2009)

No idea how I missed this topic that's so near and dear to me. 


I have never wanted kids, and that has never changed. I started looking into how to get my tubes tied when I was 19.... of course no one would do it. I still find that highly irritating, it's my body, my choice - but nope. 

If I'd been an 18 year old who pumped about 3 kids already, suurreee, they would have tied me in knots. 


Anyway, not my thing - don't want them. 

Despite what some friends tease me for, and some genuinely believe, I don't hate kids. But I don't feel any "oooh!" towards them at all. Most kids bug me in that annoying, whiny, bratty, pulling at your sleeve way. The same way any adult of the same manners would. I will sometime see a cute baby and realize they're a cute baby in that Anne Geddes sort of way, but that's about it. I still don't coo or want to hold them or have any "awww, someday... ". Good LORD - no.


But some kids are very cool and fun and interesting to be around - especially when they're not mine and I'm able to leave them at a moment's notice.  

I'm insanely lucky to have a mother who knows I don't want children, have never wanted children, and has never once said a single word to me to lead me to believe she thinks it could be/should be/may eventually be some other way. I know how lucky I am for that.


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## disconnectedsmile (Dec 15, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I'm also a card-carrying non-breeder, and I dislike when people ask me why. I feel like it's a personal decision that I shouldn't have to justify.



THIS, THIS, a thousand times this.

this is exactly what i feel, and i thank you for putting it so perfectly.


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## lypeaches (Dec 16, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> All i can say is....what if you regret it? Not having kids. Well then...you regret it. If you have kids and you wind up feeling you don't want to be a parent, you wind up angry, stressed, depressed, and miserable. Not good for parents or child.
> 
> I don't like kids, never did and never will. Anyone who has the urge to co-parent would do so with another partner. I have never regretted following my innate push.



Me neither...I don't expect I ever will. 

On a lighter side....I was watching an episode of Private Practice this fall, and there's one female character who is a very independant type. When a new mother asked her if she wanted to hold her baby, this character replied..."what, do I **look** like a woman who wants to hold a baby? This is a silk dress for chrissakes!". It totally cracked me up...and it was nice to see the variety in characters for once.


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## AnnMarie (Dec 16, 2009)

lypeaches said:


> Me neither...I don't expect I ever will.
> 
> On a lighter side....I was watching an episode of Private Practice this fall, and there's one female character who is a very independant type. When a new mother asked her if she wanted to hold her baby, this character replied..."what, do I **look** like a woman who wants to hold a baby? This is a silk dress for chrissakes!". It totally cracked me up...and it was nice to see the variety in characters for once.




I'm going to pick on that one, just for a minute. And totally not intended toward you, Janelle, because I agree that it's at least nice to see the option of not wanting children represented at all. 


However, I have a bit of issue with the rebuttal about the silk dress. I find that more often than not, if there's a discussion about my choice, I'm painted to be a selfish, self-serving person who doesn't care enough about my "role" to have children and give of myself. I resent this implication greatly as I give a lot to others - I just don't choose to parent. So, my beef with portrayals like that, that it's about a dress, sort of feed into that mentality that there's this very selfish, superficial, "me, me, me" attitude that accompanies the decision not to have kids. 

If that is someone's argument, the same can be said about those who are very "me, me, me" about having them - but that will always be looked on as wholesome and loving and "natural" - where the choice to not be a parent seems to be seen as a defect and therefore judged by more traditional assignments of blame - selfish, stunted adolescence, shirking responsibility, etc. 


Just a side thought that your comment brought up.


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## Isa (Dec 16, 2009)

What's wrong with being selfish, or even considered so, in this instance? There are more than enough people in the world having children to make up for those that do not (Duggars anyone?). While my decision was made for me due to a medical condition, in the end it was probably best. 

I love my friends children but cannot ever imagine having one myself. The sheer degree to which one gives up their life to raise a child is incredible. After watching my friends and the changes they go through (which they are not always happy about and has made at least one couple stop at just that, one) I now find it amazing when someone wants to have a child.


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## tattooU (Dec 17, 2009)

Glad to see/read this thread! i've never wanted children, much to the dismay of my stepmother. i was married for 10 years, and i think she waited with baited breath every year for us to give her some grandbaby news. When my ex-husband got the good ol' snip i think it finally sunk in.

But then, as all good things... my marriage came to an end.  

i recall one of the things i my stepmother told me early in my separation was "maybe now you'll find a good guy and have some kids!" :doh: Uh right, totally what i was thinking... 

i wonder how my conversation will go this Xmas when i tell her that my bf has about as much interest in reproducing as i do. i'll break it to her nicely.


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## lypeaches (Dec 17, 2009)

AnnMarie said:


> I'm going to pick on that one, just for a minute. And totally not intended toward you, Janelle, because I agree that it's at least nice to see the option of not wanting children represented at all.
> 
> 
> However, I have a bit of issue with the rebuttal about the silk dress. I find that more often than not, if there's a discussion about my choice, I'm painted to be a selfish, self-serving person who doesn't care enough about my "role" to have children and give of myself. I resent this implication greatly as I give a lot to others - I just don't choose to parent. So, my beef with portrayals like that, that it's about a dress, sort of feed into that mentality that there's this very selfish, superficial, "me, me, me" attitude that accompanies the decision not to have kids.
> ...



I'm right with ya, Annemarie!


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## Tooz (Dec 17, 2009)

Someone told me once that I couldn't bear the fact a child got more attention than me-- which was why I didn't want kids. They said I was too selfish. (I can't remember if I said that earlier in the thread or not).

Anyway, that's ridiculous. Sometimes a woman just does not want children. I do not want children. It has nothing to do with attention, I just absolutely hate babies. They are not cute to me. Their crying raises my bloop pressure. I just hate. kids.


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## LoveBHMS (Dec 17, 2009)

Tooz said:


> Someone told me once that I couldn't bear the fact a child got more attention than me-- which was why I didn't want kids. They said I was too selfish. (I can't remember if I said that earlier in the thread or not).
> 
> Anyway, that's ridiculous. Sometimes a woman just does not want children. I do not want children. It has nothing to do with attention, I just absolutely hate babies. They are not cute to me. Their crying raises my bloop pressure. I just hate. kids.



I've always found this idea of "selfishness" to be odd.

One of my favorite comebacks came from a Childfree by Choice board i used to read where somebody suggested asking parents "Can you give me five reasons you had kids that don't start with the word 'I wanted.....'"

It seems to me, in large part that having kids comes about from an infinite number of reasons, many of which can be considered waaaay more selfish than anything a CFC woman could come up with. Some people have kids to 'save' a flagging relationship, some women get pregnant to hold onto a man or his money, some have kids because it will 'bring them closer together' with a partner. Some have kids to 'carry on the family name' or because it would be wrong for an existing child to be an only child. Some do it cause all their friends have kids. Some do it because the partner wants them. Some people just plain like children and want to be parents. Some had crappy childhoods and want to recreate a family life they never had. Some people had crappy lives and want a kid to accomplish what they never did.

And if you are, in fact, selfish, is having a child really a good idea?


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## Tooz (Dec 17, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> I've always found this idea of "selfishness" to be odd.
> 
> One of my favorite comebacks came from a Childfree by Choice board i used to read where somebody suggested asking parents "Can you give me five reasons you had kids that don't start with the word 'I wanted.....'"
> 
> ...



This is such a great point. People have children because they WANT to, so isn't that sort of selfish in an of itself? I mean, does anyone really have children for any other reason?


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## fatgirlflyin (Dec 17, 2009)

Tooz said:


> This is such a great point. People have children because they WANT to, so isn't that sort of selfish in an of itself? I mean, does anyone really have children for any other reason?



I didn't plan to have children, believe it or not birth control failed for me twice. I don't think that having kids or not having kids is selfish at all. Its a personal choice that every one must make for themselves and like every choice, everyone has their own reasons for making it. I personally applaud people who know they don't want children and don't have them. As a matter of fact, I envy their freedom to do what they want to do and be who they want to be. Once you become a parent you just don't have that luxury anymore.


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## TallFatSue (Dec 18, 2009)

My brother and just about all of my married relatives have children. One exception is a cousin in her late 20s who was married a few years ago. She & her husband seem to be in no hurry to have children, and it didn't seem like anyone pestered them about it when we saw them over Thanksgiving weekend. She's the 2nd fattest person in our extended family after me, so maybe everyone assumes she's "too fat" to have kids, simply because we don't have children either? Sad to say, many of my relatives assume Art & I don't have children simply because I'm so fat, not due to infertility or because we have no interest anyway. We'll see that cousin and her husband again next weekend at a Christmas party, so maybe I'll be nosy and ask. Then again, it's none of my business. 

We've already been to 3 other family Christmas parties, and the kiddos rough-housing reminded me why we had no interest in children. Come to think of it, some of the uncles rough-housing with the kiddos reminded me that age is no sign of maturity either.


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## jb1970 (Dec 27, 2009)

My wife and I have 4 children. They've brought joy into our lives that I cannot explain. My wife and I have some very close friends who are childless and do not want kids. Here is the way I see it. Its their life, its their choice. Who am I to pass judgment on them? Whether they ever have children of their own or not, they are still our good friends and they adore our 4 children. They do have some noticeable differences from me and wife though. They like to travel and do things on the run, things that parents know would not be good for a child and sometimes is not possible if you have a child. To me, they are much more self centered than my wife and I. And I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean they want to do what they want to do when they want to do it and a child would not fit into their current lifestyle. They are very good people, I actually think they'd make great parents, but thats not what they want and I respect that and don't question it. Besides, when you have a child, you are no longer #1, that child has to come first and should come first. Anyone who cannot do that or is not willing to do that should absolutely not bring a child into this world. As much as its hard for me to understand, I believe that some folks make a great decision when they decide to not have a child. A child takes precedence over everything else in life for a parent, including your job and lifestyle. Those things have to be adjusted for the child's best interest. Therefore, I applaud the OP. If you don't want a child then you should not have one, you are doing the right thing IMO. And, its isn't anyone else's business and you have every right to be rude if they continue to harass you over it. People seem to have forgotten these days that we as individuals are still entitled to make our own decisions about our lives and its it not someone else's to make for us. As a parent, I do wish that everyone could experience the joy of being a dad or mom, but everyone is not like me and does not view the world as I do nor does everyone want the same things out of life that I do. In the end, I say.... to each his/her own.


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## Hathor (Dec 31, 2009)

I've never wanted children and I would go around saying so starting when I was about 9 or 10 (according to my dad). I've never found joy in children or their antics. I don't like all the stuff associated with kids. I have no desire for my bloodline to continue. We have a bad family history as far as cancers and heart disease go as well as mental illness. Aside from not wanting kids, I wouldn't want to pass on any of those traits.


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## Hathor (Dec 31, 2009)

Tina said:


> I think the real shame is that no matter _what_ a woman does she is screwed and wrong. And the worst thing is when other women lay guilt trips on fellow women. It's bad enough that society as a whole and those men who believe they know what a woman's place is puts their puny two cents in gets disdainful and judgmental, but when it's fellow women, to me it seems even worse.



I'm nearing 3-0 and already I'm getting crap from so-called friends who are wondering when I'm going to get a guy, get married, have kids, buy a farm. I have one friend who is 10 years older than me who just bought a house, has 5 cats, and is completely self sufficient all without a guy or kids. She loves her life and even she is still receiving flack from so-called friends about her having kids before she's 40 and getting married. 

I wish more people would understand that kids aren't for everyone, y'know.. But I'm glad you said what you did, Tina, because women are definitely the harshest judges of character like that. 

Lord knows I am quite judgmental towards other women, but never to their faces.

I also wanted to say that I have a married friend who is incapable of getting pregnant the regular way and may have to have donor eggs to conceive. She's devastated and is putting herself through hell to have a family because of everyone around her (family, in-laws...sans husband) is telling her she needs to have kids now before she's 30. She's going to put herself in the nuthouse if she continues like that. Sheesh.


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## Shosh (Dec 31, 2009)

I always thought that I would have a child, but the choice has been taken out of my hands due to not being physically well enough.

Since I have had my dog however, I never think about having a child anymore.

Is it selfish to say that I actually prefer having a dog, to the idea of having a child now?

I think the older I get, the less appealing the idea of having a child got anyway.

I am so used to my peaceful and quiet life, and doing as I please, when I please, that I think I could not handle any change from that.

When I hear a child screaming or crying I tense up, and feel stressed. I want to get as far away from the child as possible.

It is strange because I worked with children for so long, but I have been away from it a while now, and I just cant deal with it anymore at all.

I love being an Auntie, but no, no children for me.


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## LillyBBBW (Dec 31, 2009)

Shosh said:


> I always thought that I would have a child, but the choice has been taken out of my hands due to not being physically well enough.
> 
> Since I have had my dog however, I never think about having a child anymore.
> 
> ...



I'm right with you Shosh. I'm watching my younger sister now and observing the living hell her life has become. She's been sick for 4 months now. She gets sick, then gets sick again -- the baby gets sick and childcare wont take him so she's got to miss work and stay home with him. This is now her second job and like the other one before it, it's in jeopardy too. He's 2 now. He tears stuff down, pushes stuff over, darts off at a fast run suddenly wanting to be chased. He never stops moving, stamps his foot and hollers "NO", throws tantrums, wont do what he's told, speaks at a shout at all times and never... goes... to... sleep. He is the reason I think they should sell Chloroform over the counter. I love him to death but right now I'm thinking... dog. A nice dog.


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## Shosh (Dec 31, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I'm right with you Shosh. I'm watching my younger sister now and observing the living hell her life has become. She's been sick for 4 months now. She gets sick, then gets sick again -- the baby gets sick and childcare wont take him so she's got to miss work and stay home with him. This is now her second job and like the other one before it, it's in jeopardy too. He's 2 now. He tears stuff down, pushes stuff over, darts off at a fast run suddenly wanting to be chased. He never stops moving, stamps his foot and hollers "NO", throws tantrums, wont do what he's told, speaks at a shout at all times and never... goes... to... sleep. He is the reason I think they should sell Chloroform over the counter. I love him to death but right now I'm thinking... dog. A nice dog.



Lol.

Maybe we childless women are onto something Lilly, like wanting a peaceful and sane life.

My sister has 11 year old twins, and she has been through hell with them.

Marcus is two now also like Kent, and his latest thing is asking my brother if it is ok to kick the baby, Gigi who is four months old.

She has a round head, and it must look like a ball to Marcus.

My brother was of course like " No, we don't kick the baby" 

Another thing regarding all this is that I really have lost interest in entertaining children. I really do not want to have to constantly keep a child entertained. It is just boring and tiresome to me now.

Of course I will play with my nieces and nephews, but other people's kids? No.

I want my time to be spent doing the things that I enjoy, and I want the time to be peaceful and quiet.

Selfish? Maybe, but that is the way I feel.


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## Paquito (Dec 31, 2009)

So over the Christmas holidays, my family spent time at my Aunt's house for a few days. She has a 1 year old daughter. I actually got along really well with the baby though: she's self-sufficient, barely cries, is always giggling and laughing, and very observant. And to my surprise, she got really attached to me (she bawled when I left). 
But even though I had fun with the little girl, it really confirmed my desire to remain childless. I just have no patience for them at all. The constant attention, the need to touch everything...just really grated on me after a while. And yes, she's better behaved than any other baby I've ever met, but I'm content being the fun cousin, not the father.


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## BBW Betty (Jan 1, 2010)

Shosh said:


> I always thought that I would have a child, but the choice has been taken out of my hands due to not being physically well enough.
> 
> Since I have had my dog however, I never think about having a child anymore.
> 
> ...



I'm at this point, too. I was a teacher for 15 years (8 as a substitute teacher, and 7 in a residential treatment center). I loved working with the kids, even some of the really tough ones. But now I'm almost 41 years old, and feeling too old to want to deal with the lifestyle changes motherhood would bring. I can really appreciate not having teenagers right now. 

I still like kids, and love being Auntie Betty, but I'm always glad to get back home where they are not my responsibility. I think for me, it's more about embracing a change to my expectations, though, as I got older. I no longer expect / plan to have children, and have come to appreciate the positive side of that.


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## Hathor (Jan 1, 2010)

BBW Betty said:


> I'm at this point, too. I was a teacher for 15 years (8 as a substitute teacher, and 7 in a residential treatment center). I loved working with the kids, even some of the really tough ones. But now I'm almost 41 years old, and feeling too old to want to deal with the lifestyle changes motherhood would bring. I can really appreciate not having teenagers right now.
> 
> I still like kids, and love being Auntie Betty, but I'm always glad to get back home where they are not my responsibility.



Have you ever noticed that people who don't have kids are gentler and kinder (usually) towards children? I have noticed it a lot.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 1, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I'm right with you Shosh. I'm watching my younger sister now and observing the living hell her life has become. She's been sick for 4 months now. She gets sick, then gets sick again -- the baby gets sick and childcare wont take him so she's got to miss work and stay home with him. This is now her second job and like the other one before it, it's in jeopardy too. He's 2 now. He tears stuff down, pushes stuff over, darts off at a fast run suddenly wanting to be chased. He never stops moving, stamps his foot and hollers "NO", throws tantrums, wont do what he's told, speaks at a shout at all times and never... goes... to... sleep. He is the reason I think they should sell Chloroform over the counter. I love him to death but right now I'm thinking... dog. A nice dog.



Lilly, how does your sister feel about her life? I'm curious because what you've described sounds pretty similar to the chaos that my own life has become (although my son is 3 now, and a lot calmer, thank ye Dogs). Chronic fatigue, constant focus on meeting the needs of our little one, and sometimes the only break I get is when I'm at work. Our neat, tidy home and showroom quality spotless vehicles are ... no more. Right now I'm looking at piles of toys, half-eaten snacks (some of them on the floor), crayon markings on the walls, a stained and sagging sofa (we won't even bother replacing it until Jegan is at least 5), and dark blotches of stain on our almost brand-new so-called stainproofed carpet. And when I go out to our car later, it will be filled with toys, papers, DVD's, half-eaten snacks, crumbs, etc. We don't go out to eat anymore unless it's at a family-style restaurant (can you say blech? I knew you could ). Friends no longer even bother inviting us out. We've turned them down too many times to count. The extent of our social life is the occasional potluck get-together in a friend's house with crowds of unruly children stampeding around all over the place and I'm lucky if I get 5 uninterrupted minutes to chat with another adult. We still have to leave by 9pm so that our son doesn't have a fatigue meltdown which, if not caught early enough, will ensure that he's awake and tantruming until the wee hours of the morning (i.e., until he's cried and fit thrown himself into the point of passing out). Our sex life? We're lucky to catch 5-10 minutes on the (afore-mentioned broken down ratty old) sofa before one or both of us passes out from exhaustion. I've been vomited on more times than I can count. He picks his nose and wipes it on me. If he doesn't like what he's eating, out it goes into my hand. I've spent countless nights up at 3 a.m. walking the hallways with him in my arms, soothing him and praying that his fever will break or his breathing will return to normal. Although he's past 3, he's still not fully potty trained. My entire life is going to be spent worrying about him, about his safety and well-being, wondering if I'm doing a good enough job preparing him for life and the real world, concern about whether I'm raising him the right way. I will never again, ever, feel that my life is about me in any real sense of that word (in any way that I knew prior to becoming a mother). I know that our childless friends would look at our lives and shudder ... and not with envy. Hell, I know that what I've written above looks awful. But I have to say ... it's not. I love it. I love every minute of it and my biggest fear is that it's all slipping away so fast, and he's not going to need me much longer. Also, any parent reading this will understand and fully empathize with what I'm saying. Our lives are chaos, and untidy, and stressful, and no, I don't feel any pride that I'm "suffering" this for any kind of greater good. It is just, simply, that I love my son more than I love myself and ... I'm quoting my own mother here, something I'm usually loathe to do ... this is the toughest job I've ever loved. 

None of this, btw, is to try to convince the childless-by-choice crowd to give it a go. Believe me ... I understand the allure of that lifestyle, too! It's more trying to convince the childless-by-choice crowd that from the outside looking in, it's easy to think that we're suffering, zombified fools. And we are. But we're not unhappy about that, either


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## bexy (Jan 1, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> Wow. A lot of nastiness here. Goofy, I understand why you started this thread, and I agree with what you said. I am wondering, though, why several people are using this as a platform to stomp all over people who choose to have children. What is the underlying reason?



Totally agree, this thread has made me sad 

I can't even word all that I want to say.

I will always defend a person's right to choose to have no children. I think it's fine to not want to have children. But some of the stuff that has been said in this thread has made me sad.

And a lot of it said by the same people who said such lovely, beautiful things about Ivy. But now they are referring to kids as some sort of nuiscance and mothers as some sort of saddo with no life and no identity that doesn't revolve around their child. So colour me confused. 

I'm proud to say that my life revolves around Ivy because at this age, 6 months, it should do. She is my focus and rightly so because why else would I choose to have had her? I want to invest my time and energy into making sure she has the most wonderful childhood possible. That doesn't suddenly make me brain dead and boring though 

Stepping away now before I get cross. I can't explain myself very well


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 1, 2010)

bexy said:


> Totally agree, this thread has made me sad
> 
> I can't even word all that I want to say.
> 
> ...



Well as a hardcore CFC, I think can (and maybe should) somewhat address this.

People are CFC for a variety of reasons. In some cases, it is a simple dislike of children. In others, maybe you have a genetic health problems and don't want to pass it along. In between that you have an infinite number of possibilities ranging from child-rearing being incompatible with lifestyle, a partner who does not want them, mental or physical illness, infertility where you chose to not pursue adoption, or financial problems. I used to frequent a CFC board and in some cases, CFC were the oldest sibling and had to help with childcare from a young age and by the time they reached adulthood has already changed diapers, been spat upon, gotten up in the middle of the night, etc. and felt they were "done" with having those responsibilities.

Once you have made that choice, you become aware of how parents or would be parents react to you. Some make assumptions about why you do or don't have or like kids. Some attribute really mean personality attributes to you like you must be selfish or your life must be empty or your relationship with a partner will never be "complete" until you have a baby together. Women who don't want kids may be labeled as "not real women" or 'having something wrong with them" and men maybe be labeled as "immature" or "unwilling to grow up".

Additionally, in the past couple of years there have been books and media reports about inequality in the workplace as far as parents being allowed time off more easily, non-parents being expected to soldier more hours, situations like Lilly's where parents get automatic leave to care for children but others can't get leave to do things important to them. When I was waitressing, there was a single dad on our staff who was always insisting the host seat large parties in his section and trying to steal customers from other servers and tell us "I have child support payments so I need this table" as if whatever financial committments everyone else had were less important.

I don't know how is it in the UK, but in the US there has been a huge change in parents simply not bothering with discipline. When I was waitressing I was constantly having to clean up food kids tossed on the floor, deal with children running around the dining room and bothering other patrons, parents who did not take the children outside when they were crying, etc. It made the parents come off as extremely selfish and many of them exuded the attitude that they didn't care about the other patrons and didn't care that we had so spend extra time cleaning up the handsful of food the children tossed on the floor. Also, since many people are having children later, there seem to be many parents who take the attitude that kids are not going to interfere in their lives and they take the children everywhere with them, even places they do not belong. One friend of mine told me he took his child to a bar on St. Patrick's Day when they still allowed smoking in bars and i was horrified that he's subject a tiny baby to so much smoke and noise simply so he could ensure that having kids didn't change his life. 

So while people like me admire those who choose to parent and are good parents, and appreciate the respect of those who understand that I don't want kids, we can also wind up feeling very maligned and disrespected in so many ways and this leads to frustration.


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## NoWayOut (Jan 1, 2010)

I can understand this mentality, and to be honest, I think it's preferable to the overly maternal women that are all about any kid, theirs or not. I spent three days with my now-ex-girlfriend last week, and she spent just about all of her time taking care of an infant that belonged to her friend's daughter. I had no interest in being with her while she's busy with someone else's kid.

That said, while I can definitely understand why a woman would choose not to have kids (having to be a full-time mother, squeezing a child out of yourself, losing your life to your child), I'm not sure I could marry a woman who was completely against having children. My reason for that is simple: I'm just not willing to commit to no sex, ever.


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## mossystate (Jan 1, 2010)

NoWayOut said:


> I can understand this mentality, and to be honest, I think it's preferable to the overly maternal women that are all about any kid, theirs or not. I spent three days with my now-ex-girlfriend last week, and she spent just about all of her time taking care of an infant that belonged to her friend's daughter. I had no interest in being with her while she's busy with someone else's kid.
> 
> That said, while I can definitely understand why a woman would choose not to have kids (having to be a full-time mother, squeezing a child out of yourself, losing your life to your child), I'm not sure I could marry a woman who was completely against having children. My reason for that is simple: I'm just not willing to commit to no sex, ever.



I am going to get to some of my own feelings about the subject, but want to address your post.

Sounds like you were jealous of that baby. Was she your ex before this last week? Maybe she felt a joy in caring for that wee human, and decided to use her energy with her/him, instead of you...two people calling out for attention...what to do...what to do. 

The second paragraph seems to have you believing that caring for a child is the sole responsibility of the woman. Women who happen to be with another adult who is also claiming to be a parent...they tend to not be the only ones who ' lose ' something, if they stand up for themselves and their needs. Both parents need to be full-time, especially to have that mentality. As for the sex thing....you would only have sex to have kids? Of course, if that is the case, then you would have plenty of time to parent.  Seems any woman would have to walk a tightrope ...not too much of doing this...that...just enough...eeeeee.


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## goofy girl (Jan 1, 2010)

I'll probably get throttled for what I'm going to post but here goes:

My intention of this thread was not for anyone's feelings to get hurt. I understand that parenthood is the most difficult and most rewarding thing a person can do. And I am beyond thrilled for everyone who has been blessed with children and I'm sure you all do children have lovely kids. Honestly. And I am genuinely excited for everyone when their children are born, and I get giddy about seeing them in photos of their first Christmas, or discovering their belly buttons or chewing away on their favorite stuffed rabbit. I don't want children of my own, but I do love and would do anything to protect them and I think they are amazing, but I just don't see them fitting into my life. I have reasons for that, and the reasons are as difficult to explain as it is for the mothers to explain why they love being mothers so much. 

I don't feel anyone was personally attacked but maybe we all did say some things that were insensitive, whether we're Moms, want to be moms or don't want to be moms. 

I honestly don't believe anyone is better than the other because they do or don't have children. 

My hope for this thread was that there would be other women in the same situation as I am- (relatively) young, married, and feeling pressured by peers that have no right to interfere with my reproductive decisions/wants/etc- could discuss this and how hurtful, lonely, and heartbreaking it is to be in those situations. 

I truly am sorry if anyone was personally offended by anything said in this thread, but I do not apologize for my feeling and decision regarding my personal choice not to have children. 

Perhaps I should request this thread to be closed.


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## NoWayOut (Jan 1, 2010)

mossystate said:


> The second paragraph seems to have you believing that caring for a child is the sole responsibility of the woman. Women who happen to be with another adult who is also claiming to be a parent...they tend to not be the only ones who ' lose ' something, if they stand up for themselves and their needs. Both parents need to be full-time, especially to have that mentality. As for the sex thing....you would only have sex to have kids? Of course, if that is the case, then you would have plenty of time to parent.  Seems any woman would have to walk a tightrope ...not too much of doing this...that...just enough...eeeeee.



Of course it's a two-way street to raise a child. Didn't mean to imply that at all. But yeah, the only sure way to not have kids is to not have sex. If she's willing to have kids, no restriction. But if she's not, then I can't put myself in that position. If she's not at least open to the possibility of children, then I can't have sex with her. It's that simple for me.



mossystate said:


> Sounds like you were jealous of that baby. Was she your ex before this last week? Maybe she felt a joy in caring for that wee human, and decided to use her energy with her/him, instead of you...two people calling out for attention...what to do...what to do.



I wouldn't call it jealousy, as I had already decided things were going to end prior to seeing that. But if I had decided we'd stay together, it was a warning sign for me. If she's like that for a kid that she's not even related to, odds are that I wouldn't be happy spending my life with her.


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## Isa (Jan 1, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> Lilly, how does your sister feel about her life? I'm curious because what you've described sounds pretty similar to the chaos that my own life has become (although my son is 3 now, and a lot calmer, thank ye Dogs). Chronic fatigue, constant focus on meeting the needs of our little one, and sometimes the only break I get is when I'm at work. Our neat, tidy home and showroom quality spotless vehicles are ... no more. Right now I'm looking at piles of toys, half-eaten snacks (some of them on the floor), crayon markings on the walls, a stained and sagging sofa (we won't even bother replacing it until Jegan is at least 5), and dark blotches of stain on our almost brand-new so-called stainproofed carpet. And when I go out to our car later, it will be filled with toys, papers, DVD's, half-eaten snacks, crumbs, etc. We don't go out to eat anymore unless it's at a family-style restaurant (can you say blech? I knew you could ). Friends no longer even bother inviting us out. We've turned them down too many times to count. The extent of our social life is the occasional potluck get-together in a friend's house with crowds of unruly children stampeding around all over the place and I'm lucky if I get 5 uninterrupted minutes to chat with another adult. We still have to leave by 9pm so that our son doesn't have a fatigue meltdown which, if not caught early enough, will ensure that he's awake and tantruming until the wee hours of the morning (i.e., until he's cried and fit thrown himself into the point of passing out). Our sex life? We're lucky to catch 5-10 minutes on the (afore-mentioned broken down ratty old) sofa before one or both of us passes out from exhaustion. I've been vomited on more times than I can count. He picks his nose and wipes it on me. If he doesn't like what he's eating, out it goes into my hand. I've spent countless nights up at 3 a.m. walking the hallways with him in my arms, soothing him and praying that his fever will break or his breathing will return to normal. Although he's past 3, he's still not fully potty trained. My entire life is going to be spent worrying about him, about his safety and well-being, wondering if I'm doing a good enough job preparing him for life and the real world, concern about whether I'm raising him the right way. I will never again, ever, feel that my life is about me in any real sense of that word (in any way that I knew prior to becoming a mother). I know that our childless friends would look at our lives and shudder ... and not with envy. Hell, I know that what I've written above looks awful. But I have to say ... it's not. I love it. I love every minute of it and my biggest fear is that it's all slipping away so fast, and he's not going to need me much longer. Also, any parent reading this will understand and fully empathize with what I'm saying. Our lives are chaos, and untidy, and stressful, and no, I don't feel any pride that I'm "suffering" this for any kind of greater good. It is just, simply, that I love my son more than I love myself and ... I'm quoting my own mother here, something I'm usually loathe to do ... this is the toughest job I've ever loved.
> 
> None of this, btw, is to try to convince the childless-by-choice crowd to give it a go. Believe me ... I understand the allure of that lifestyle, too! It's more trying to convince the childless-by-choice crowd that from the outside looking in, it's easy to think that we're suffering, zombified fools. And we are. But we're not unhappy about that, either



Damn TraciJo. Lily's post was frightening but you followed it up with an terrifying account worthy of any horror movie (Saw 25: childcare!). 

I understand your overall point but... 



bexy said:


> Totally agree, this thread has made me sad
> 
> I can't even word all that I want to say.
> 
> ...



Bexy the people that congratulated you (and George) on Ivy's birth were doing just that. Even people without children can be happy for those that decide to go that route. 

Yes, to their single friends some people do become brain dead and boring after having children for all the reasons described while others do not. I think it depends on the person and how well they are able to handle the new responsibilities and changes. I've had friends that disappeared from the face of the earth and others that just enlarged our friend family by one (also noticed that those that disappear are usually the most angry at their single friends for the differences in lifestyle but that's another conversation ).

I would say do not take this thread so personally. Review the first post and remember that it started off looking for support against negativity. This is where a lot of the anger came from. We support those that decide to have children but often do not receive that same support back for our decision. 




goofy girl said:


> Perhaps I should request this thread to be closed.



Goofy, please do not request a closing of the thread. It has value and has been very informative.


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## bexy (Jan 1, 2010)

Maybe I am taking the thread too personally and I apologise for that. Like I said I totally support anyone's decision not to have kids. I just don't like they way in which that choice has been defended, and some of the things that have been said about children and parents. If you don't want children that is fine but don't make those who do out to be idiots who are going to spend their whole lives running after "demon spawn", cleaning sick and never having sex again


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## katherine22 (Jan 1, 2010)

Shosh said:


> I always thought that I would have a child, but the choice has been taken out of my hands due to not being physically well enough.
> 
> Since I have had my dog however, I never think about having a child anymore.
> 
> ...




The mistake some people make is having children before they are ready to commit to raising them. I have one child, a son, the most wonderful young man. I was 35 years old when he was born. Before that I had a very interesting life in New York doing everything that I ever wanted to do. When my son was born, I was ready to commit to being completely available to him. I was not home lamenting the loss of freedom that raising a child entails. I was ready to focus on my child since I felt complete. I sought friendships with other people who were raising children. There is a tremendous sense of accomplishment to raise a decent human being; however, it requires discipline, focus and of course unselfishness.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 1, 2010)

bexy said:


> Maybe I am taking the thread too personally and I apologise for that. Like I said I totally support anyone's decision not to have kids. I just don't like they way in which that choice has been defended, and some of the things that have been said about children and parents. If you don't want children that is fine but don't make those who do out to be idiots who are going to spend their whole lives running after "demon spawn", cleaning sick and never having sex again



I was the one who used that term, and honestly it was in *no way* meant to be an insult or to encapsulate all parents or children. It was an irreverent way of relating negative experiences i've had with parents who *don't* take parenting seriously and don't commit to doing what is necessary to raise their children properly.

An analogy I can think of would be if a divorced, widowed, or single male were dating and having bad luck finding the right woman. He might lament something like "I'm sick and tired of the gold diggers, the neurotic daddy's girls who are looking for somebody to take care of them rather than a partner, and the single moms just looking for Junior's next daddy." That's not saying all women are gold diggers, neurotic, or insincere in dating, he's just relating his personal negative experiences.

Additionally, there are people who are CFC, or even who are not but who have not had kids yet, that can observe those attitudes you spoke of. Parenting is not the same for everyone and to be blunt, not everyone enjoys it or finds it to be the experience they'd hoped for. Sadly, there are also people who have children for the wrong reasons; to trap a man into marriage, to save a flagging relationship, pressure from a partner, men who got tricked by female partners, couples who gave into social or familial pressure, and even just those who had a romanticized and impractical idea of what parenting was about. There are lots of couples to enter into parenthood because the man "wants a son to throw the football around with" or the woman "Can't wait to have a little girl to dress up". So a lot of those couples wind up being pretty bad parents and do wind up evincing a very negative picture of what parenting is like. If you observe those families, you may well take away the negative picture of parenting that you referenced above.


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## BBW Betty (Jan 1, 2010)

Hathor said:


> Have you ever noticed that people who don't have kids are gentler and kinder (usually) towards children? I have noticed it a lot.



Actually, quite the opposite. I'm terribly afraid sometimes of becoming like my aunt and uncle who had suffered 3 miscarriages and so never had children of their own. All too often, they knew just what everyone else should do in order to "straighten out" their kids. And because I was a teacher, I am extra susceptibel to having very strong opinions about what certain kids or families may need. So I monitor myself very carefully.



TraciJo67 said:


> Lilly, how does your sister feel about her life? I'm curious because what you've described sounds pretty similar to the chaos that my own life has become (although my son is 3 now, and a lot calmer, thank ye Dogs). Chronic fatigue, constant focus on meeting the needs of our little one, and sometimes the only break I get is when I'm at work. Our neat, tidy home and showroom quality spotless vehicles are ... no more. Right now I'm looking at piles of toys, half-eaten snacks (some of them on the floor), crayon markings on the walls, a stained and sagging sofa (we won't even bother replacing it until Jegan is at least 5), and dark blotches of stain on our almost brand-new so-called stainproofed carpet. And when I go out to our car later, it will be filled with toys, papers, DVD's, half-eaten snacks, crumbs, etc. We don't go out to eat anymore unless it's at a family-style restaurant (can you say blech? I knew you could ). Friends no longer even bother inviting us out. We've turned them down too many times to count. The extent of our social life is the occasional potluck get-together in a friend's house with crowds of unruly children stampeding around all over the place and I'm lucky if I get 5 uninterrupted minutes to chat with another adult. We still have to leave by 9pm so that our son doesn't have a fatigue meltdown which, if not caught early enough, will ensure that he's awake and tantruming until the wee hours of the morning (i.e., until he's cried and fit thrown himself into the point of passing out). Our sex life? We're lucky to catch 5-10 minutes on the (afore-mentioned broken down ratty old) sofa before one or both of us passes out from exhaustion. I've been vomited on more times than I can count. He picks his nose and wipes it on me. If he doesn't like what he's eating, out it goes into my hand. I've spent countless nights up at 3 a.m. walking the hallways with him in my arms, soothing him and praying that his fever will break or his breathing will return to normal. Although he's past 3, he's still not fully potty trained. My entire life is going to be spent worrying about him, about his safety and well-being, wondering if I'm doing a good enough job preparing him for life and the real world, concern about whether I'm raising him the right way. I will never again, ever, feel that my life is about me in any real sense of that word (in any way that I knew prior to becoming a mother). I know that our childless friends would look at our lives and shudder ... and not with envy. Hell, I know that what I've written above looks awful. But I have to say ... it's not. I love it. I love every minute of it and my biggest fear is that it's all slipping away so fast, and he's not going to need me much longer. Also, any parent reading this will understand and fully empathize with what I'm saying. Our lives are chaos, and untidy, and stressful, and no, I don't feel any pride that I'm "suffering" this for any kind of greater good. It is just, simply, that I love my son more than I love myself and ... I'm quoting my own mother here, something I'm usually loathe to do ... this is the toughest job I've ever loved.
> 
> None of this, btw, is to try to convince the childless-by-choice crowd to give it a go. Believe me ... I understand the allure of that lifestyle, too! It's more trying to convince the childless-by-choice crowd that from the outside looking in, it's easy to think that we're suffering, zombified fools. And we are. But we're not unhappy about that, either



Although not a Mom myself, I like to think I can* partially *identify with this. I am the oldest of 4 kids in a farm family, and 10 years older than my youngest sister. I was responsible for her more often than not, and I often joke that I did a good job raising her. (I even taught her to drive, instead of Mom doing it.) I experienced much of this not only with her, but the many children I was a caretaker for over the years. And there's none of it I wouldn't do again. I am happy for you, TraciJo.



bexy said:


> Totally agree, this thread has made me sad
> 
> I can't even word all that I want to say.
> 
> ...



It is sad that there is so much animosity between some people over this issue. I think there is some times a lack of understanding between parents and non-parents, which creates a tension. It shouldn't be considered an "issue" thought. Bexy, I am so thrilled that you are happy being a Mom, and Ivy is blessed to have you.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 1, 2010)

BBW Betty said:


> Actually, quite the opposite. I'm terribly afraid sometimes of becoming like my aunt and uncle who had suffered 3 miscarriages and so never had children of their own. *All too often, they knew just what everyone else should do in order to "straighten out" their kids.* And because I was a teacher, I am extra susceptibel to having very strong opinions about what certain kids or families may need. So I monitor myself very carefully.




Lol, I notice that quite a bit from people without kids myself. I work in a children's dental office and some of the people I work with, the ones without children, will sometimes launch into these long diatribes about how people should raise their children. 
I'm not a perfect parent.....I don't expect others to be. I do expect that those that haven't done it 24/7 for 17+ years, like myself, not to tell me how to do a job that I seem to be successful at so far.......

That being said, it's hard for me, as a parent, not to ascribe my own beliefs onto the ways some others choose to raise their offspring. If asked, then I might offer a suggestion.....but I hardly get asked 
I suspect it's human nature, at work


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 2, 2010)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Lol, I notice that quite a bit from people without kids myself. I work in a children's dental office and some of the people I work with, the ones without children, will sometimes launch into these long diatribes about how people should raise their children.
> I'm not a perfect parent.....I don't expect others to be. I do expect that those that haven't done it 24/7 for 17+ years, like myself, not to tell me how to do a job that I seem to be successful at so far.......
> 
> That being said, it's hard for me, as a parent, not to ascribe my own beliefs onto the ways some others choose to raise their offspring. If asked, then I might offer a suggestion.....but I hardly get asked
> I suspect it's human nature, at work




I was probably one of those non-parents, GEF  I can remember feeling immensely annoyed if a child so much as whimpered in my vicinity and the parent didn't immediately stampede out the door. My thinking was that you don't 'inflict' your child on others. And while I still think that to an extent ... I get why it doesn't always happen. If I picked Jegan up and rushed him out of the store every time he whined, fussed, or outright tantrumed ... we'd never have groceries in the house. He has a mind of his own, and I have no control over how he's going to react to certain stimuli (or lack thereof). Take him out of the store as a 'punishment'? LMAO! That's what he's hoping for! And every time I do just that, his cunning toddler mind makes yet another connection. At his age, he's forgotten his transgression nearly the moment he's made it. It would serve no purpose to strap him into the car seat, drive 20 minutes home, and then give him a time out. Sometimes it's best to just ignore him as he whines and fusses while I complete my shopping as quickly as possible. And now ... when I see another haggard parent with a screaming toddler strapped into a cart ... I just smile with sympathy and move along.


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## goofy girl (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm guilty of giving advice when I really shouldn't. It has nothing to do with me thinking I'd be better at it, or that I'm annoyed by the child's behavior (I mean, I do get annoyed but I know that kids are kids and they'll do what kids do) but I think I just feel so badly for some Mom's I know that before I know it I'm throwing out ideas. Of course this is friends of mine, not just random people I see during the day. And my advice giving is not limited to raising children either lol

I have a lot more to say but I'm high on cold medicine, so I'll come back later when I can make more sense out of myself


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 2, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I was probably one of those non-parents, GEF  I can remember feeling immensely annoyed if a child so much as whimpered in my vicinity and the parent didn't immediately stampede out the door. My thinking was that you don't 'inflict' your child on others. And while I still think that to an extent ... I get why it doesn't always happen. If I picked Jegan up and rushed him out of the store every time he whined, fussed, or outright tantrumed ... we'd never have groceries in the house. He has a mind of his own, and I have no control over how he's going to react to certain stimuli (or lack thereof). Take him out of the store as a 'punishment'? LMAO! That's what he's hoping for! And every time I do just that, his cunning toddler mind makes yet another connection. At his age, he's forgotten his transgression nearly the moment he's made it. It would serve no purpose to strap him into the car seat, drive 20 minutes home, and then give him a time out. Sometimes it's best to just ignore him as he whines and fusses while I complete my shopping as quickly as possible. And now ... when I see another haggard parent with a screaming toddler strapped into a cart ... I just smile with sympathy and move along.



Small children....you really only have limited control over them. I suspect that people see someone really small vs someone really big and expect the "giant" to "dominate". You may be able to physically restrain your small child but their understanding is limited and, like you said, they don't care if they are disturbing other people. They just want what they want......and they are fussy, tired, whiny, cranky, etc at certain times.....no matter what you do. Some children are more cooperative than others.....just as a person might notice this trend among adults. 
My three children......they each came with their own personalities. My twins....one is a pleaser that is doted upon by all of her teachers. The other, smaller girl.....she definitely has her own whip-smart mind and is not as easy to "handle". She is stubborn.....and there will be NO progress made until SHE decides she wants to do it. 
Children, in some ways, get "easier" as they get older (until they become teenagers, that is ).


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 4, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> Lilly, how does your sister feel about her life? I'm curious because what you've described sounds pretty similar to the chaos that my own life has become (although my son is 3 now, and a lot calmer, thank ye Dogs). Chronic fatigue, constant focus on meeting the needs of our little one, and sometimes the only break I get is when I'm at work. Our neat, tidy home and showroom quality spotless vehicles are ... no more. Right now I'm looking at piles of toys, half-eaten snacks (some of them on the floor), crayon markings on the walls, a stained and sagging sofa (we won't even bother replacing it until Jegan is at least 5), and dark blotches of stain on our almost brand-new so-called stainproofed carpet. And when I go out to our car later, it will be filled with toys, papers, DVD's, half-eaten snacks, crumbs, etc. We don't go out to eat anymore unless it's at a family-style restaurant (can you say blech? I knew you could ). Friends no longer even bother inviting us out. We've turned them down too many times to count. The extent of our social life is the occasional potluck get-together in a friend's house with crowds of unruly children stampeding around all over the place and I'm lucky if I get 5 uninterrupted minutes to chat with another adult. We still have to leave by 9pm so that our son doesn't have a fatigue meltdown which, if not caught early enough, will ensure that he's awake and tantruming until the wee hours of the morning (i.e., until he's cried and fit thrown himself into the point of passing out). Our sex life? We're lucky to catch 5-10 minutes on the (afore-mentioned broken down ratty old) sofa before one or both of us passes out from exhaustion. I've been vomited on more times than I can count. He picks his nose and wipes it on me. If he doesn't like what he's eating, out it goes into my hand. I've spent countless nights up at 3 a.m. walking the hallways with him in my arms, soothing him and praying that his fever will break or his breathing will return to normal. Although he's past 3, he's still not fully potty trained. My entire life is going to be spent worrying about him, about his safety and well-being, wondering if I'm doing a good enough job preparing him for life and the real world, concern about whether I'm raising him the right way. I will never again, ever, feel that my life is about me in any real sense of that word (in any way that I knew prior to becoming a mother). I know that our childless friends would look at our lives and shudder ... and not with envy. Hell, I know that what I've written above looks awful. But I have to say ... it's not. I love it. I love every minute of it and my biggest fear is that it's all slipping away so fast, and he's not going to need me much longer. Also, any parent reading this will understand and fully empathize with what I'm saying. Our lives are chaos, and untidy, and stressful, and no, I don't feel any pride that I'm "suffering" this for any kind of greater good. It is just, simply, that I love my son more than I love myself and ... I'm quoting my own mother here, something I'm usually loathe to do ... this is the toughest job I've ever loved.
> 
> None of this, btw, is to try to convince the childless-by-choice crowd to give it a go. Believe me ... I understand the allure of that lifestyle, too! It's more trying to convince the childless-by-choice crowd that from the outside looking in, it's easy to think that we're suffering, zombified fools. And we are. But we're not unhappy about that, either



My sister and I are very close and also very similar. As a single parent she is exhausted, stressed out and very concerned about his habit of talking back. My mother and I joke that the only restaurant we can take him to is The Bucket of Blood in Chelsea. We've been out someplace and KC will be acting out and my sister looks like she wants to just hang her head and weep with dispair, and I will say to her, "So how do you feel about motherhood now?" and she will quickly answer with all earnestness and say, "Love it." What can I say? You're both crazy.  Probably much easier for me to be so philosophical about it because I don't know what I'm missing. Now that my sister knows, she wouldn't have it any other way. As for me, I think I'm good.


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## Shosh (Jan 4, 2010)

I have to really take my hat off to my sister Sarah, and praise her, because she has raised twin boys alone since they were two years old, after divorcing her husband.
She still finds time to be cheerful and kind to me and a wonderful sister, and I know that those children are very difficult and highly strung.
Well done Sissy.:bow:

As for me, I have really come to terms with the fact that I cannot and will not have children.
Other people get sad for me, and I have to tell them that it is ok.


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## goofy girl (Jan 4, 2010)

To try to bring this completely derailed thread back on track, to the non-Mom's, how do you deal with it when you're confronted with the questions and comments? 

When I try to explain it to people, it feels alot like the time I tried to convince my psychiatrist that I'm not paranoid...like the more I insisted that I wasn't, the more she tried to rationalize it and convince me that I might be which made me defend myself even more which I know made me look more and more paranoid. Maybe you had to be there (looking back on it, it was pretty hilarious...shrink: do you feel like people are watching you all the time? Me: sure, people DO watch me all the time and talk about me too. Shrink: do you think that maybe it's because you're self conscious? Me: No, it's because I'm fat and have Tourette's and people stare at me and talk about me. Shrink: Do you think there are camera's watching you? Me: Oh, of course. There are camera's everywhere these days. Street lights, ATM's, even satellites can see me if they want to) 

Anyway...it all goes back to being made to feel like I'm less of a woman, and an insensitive person because I don't want kids, when it really isn't anyone else's business to start with. 

How do we, as women who have made a personal decision, deal with it in day to day life? Or not even day to day life...maybe at family get togethers or whatever. You know what I mean.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 4, 2010)

goofy girl said:


> To try to bring this completely derailed thread back on track, to the non-Mom's, how do you deal with it when you're confronted with the questions and comments?
> 
> When I try to explain it to people, it feels alot like the time I tried to convince my psychiatrist that I'm not paranoid...like the more I insisted that I wasn't, the more she tried to rationalize it and convince me that I might be which made me defend myself even more which I know made me look more and more paranoid. Maybe you had to be there (looking back on it, it was pretty hilarious...shrink: do you feel like people are watching you all the time? Me: sure, people DO watch me all the time and talk about me too. Shrink: do you think that maybe it's because you're self conscious? Me: No, it's because I'm fat and have Tourette's and people stare at me and talk about me. Shrink: Do you think there are camera's watching you? Me: Oh, of course. There are camera's everywhere these days. Street lights, ATM's, even satellites can see me if they want to)
> 
> ...



It may be easier for me to get away with in most circles because I'm single. Compound that though with the fact that my roots are very ghetto and being a single parent seems a rite of passage, I still get the shocked inquisitors when I encounter people I grew up with. Some of them are grandparents now!  They wonder why in the world I don't have kids, etc. I just shuck it off and say that I have a hard enough time taking care of myself. This seems to satisfy people. Even people who have children nod their heads and throw up their hands in firm acknowledgement of how tough it is to raise children and all the fixins that go with it. Hypothetically speaking, if I were married I would just say that Herb* and I just aren't in the right climate for kids. It speaks the truth without elaborating. At this advanced age though people may assume that I can't actually have children and asking would be too taboo. If anyone presses about it though I would plan to say I'm too old and tired to be running after some kids. Herb and I are getting a dog.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 4, 2010)

> To try to bring this completely derailed thread back on track, to the non-Mom's, how do you deal with it when you're confronted with the questions and comments?



Honestly, and this is funny, but I treat it the same way I treat being an FFA. I recognize that it's not the majority or considered the norm, but I treat it as if it was not a big deal.

Because it's not. My sexuality is private, as is my lack of interest in procreating.

*shrug* Yeah, I've just always been attracted to larger men.
*shrug* Yeah, I've just really never been interested in having kids.

As far as kids go, the truth for my life is, my father had a family after I was well into my early teens. His wife had severe post partum depression and I wound up being a caretaker for a newborn baby before I could even drive. By the time I got a learners permit, I had changed diapers, been spit up on, woken up in the middle of the night, learned to give baby Tylenol in a dropper, etc. I just tell people that story and for the most part, they let it go. If they persist and say "it's different when it's yours" i say "right, if they were my biological children i'd also have to pay for school."


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## comaseason (Jan 4, 2010)

goofy girl said:


> To try to bring this completely derailed thread back on track, to the non-Mom's, how do you deal with it when you're confronted with the questions and comments?
> 
> ...snip
> 
> ...



Thanks for bringing us back from the brink. 

When it comes to feeling like less of a woman than someone else via my reactions to someone's actions I try and remind myself that there are always people who like to put down, belittle or otherwise disparage other people's choices in order to feel better about their own - it has nothing to do with me.

When it comes to feeling like less of a woman that someone else via my own reactions period, I ask myself what defines womanhood to me. For some people being a woman is very closely tied up with being a mother. I just sit down and have a nice chat with myself about what I really believe being a woman is. Is it the bits and pieces of my body? Is it a nurturing nature? Is it being able to be empathetic or caring towards others? Is it how I feel as far as my sexuality? Is it a feeling of unity and solidarity with those seeking equal treatment and respect for women? All of these things lie outside the boundaries of being a mother, and every woman may have a slightly different view on it. I think it's a good idea for women that have made this life decision to make sure they're pretty set on what their definition is - because if they themselves hold the belief that mothering is synonymous with being womanly, then they're never going to be at peace.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 4, 2010)

I had an interesting conversation with my son's partner on their last visit here. They've been together in one way, shape or form since they were kids, and met at summer camp. Dated off and on (long distance) and then hooked back up their freshman year in college and are as committed to each other as any married couple I've known, even though they have no plans to get married. They moved to the East Coast for grad school, getting PhD's in the Boston area (my son's getting his in Economics and she's getting hers in Sociology). Anyhow, my point in all this is that even though they're both part of a highly enlightened cohort of young, intelligent folk, the inevitable, "When are you getting married?" and "When are you going to have kids?" questions prevail, even from among their peers.

This really surprised me that among that generation -- particularly a generation of highly educated young people, most of whom are studying societal trends -- the same old expectations seem to rear their ugly head. And interestingly, my son rarely gets questioned about whether they plan to have kids, although he often gets asked when they're going to "get hitched". But his lovely partner gets interrogated on a regular basis, which shouldn't surprise me, but sadly, it does. People seem less interested in her lovely brain and what she plans to do with it, and much more interested in the contents of her ovaries. Sad.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 4, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> People seem less interested in her lovely brain and what she plans to do with it, and much more interested in the contents of her ovaries. Sad.




Feelgood's First Law of Human Behavior: what people think most about is usually what they think _with_.
Corollary to Feelgood's First Law: this may be why so many guys obsess about their tallywhackers.


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## mergirl (Jan 5, 2010)

goofy girl said:


> To try to bring this completely derailed thread back on track, to the non-Mom's, how do you deal with it when you're confronted with the questions and comments?



You know this is one of those situations where i am really glad i'm gay because people don't expect me to have children. Well my mum went through a phase when i visited and she had had a few glasses of wine and she would demand grandchildren. I told her she was like one of those crazy ladies who have 'monkey babies' or who carry about dolls that look so creepy and real life and that if she really wants a grandchild she should just get herself a monkey baby. 
The pressure is off me now as my wee brother and his gf just got engaged. I feel sorry for her because she is only 20 and my mum is eyeing up her womb hopefully. I tell her she should go with the 'monkey baby' line. If someone asks why you dont have children you should just say "My monkey baby might kill it".

Actually, i might even go the whole hog and actually just get a monkey baby!


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 5, 2010)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Feelgood's First Law of Human Behavior: what people think most about is usually what they think _with_.
> Corollary to Feelgood's First Law: this may be why so many guys obsess about their tallywhackers.



I like this. It explains a lot about human behavior, doesn't it?


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## fatgirlflyin (Jan 6, 2010)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Children, in some ways, get "easier" as they get older (until they become teenagers, that is ).




and then you want to hang them upside down in the closet by their big toes until they become semi-nice again!


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## Tooz (Jan 6, 2010)

goofy girl said:


> To try to bring this completely derailed thread back on track, to the non-Mom's, how do you deal with it when you're confronted with the questions and comments?



For me, I guess it's somewhat easy because not only do I not want kids, I don't LIKE kids. I just end up standing my ground.

"How can you not want/like children?"
"I've always known I don't want/like children."
"You're young. You'll change your mind."
"I'm almost 26, so no, I won't. I do not like children."
"...you'll change your mind."
"Look, it doesn't matter if I change my mind or not, I would have a child past 25 anyway. My parents had me when they were older and while my parents are wonderful, if I were to have a kid, I would want to do it at a younger age."
"But what will you do if you CHANGE YOUR MIND?"
"I WON'T. Remind me, how was this your business again?"

That real conversation morphed from small talk on an elevator. The couple turned purple when I asked how it was their business and didn't say anything else.


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## Lovelyone (Jan 6, 2010)

I guess my situation is different and almost in the reverse of yours Bridget.

I am almost 43...always wanted a baby, but never had the right circumstances/finances to have one. I always thought I would have one cos I come from a fertile family. I have 3 sisters and each of them has 2 children or more. Often times I feel like the odd woman out in family functions because they all talk about their children, and since I "don't HAVE a child how could I POSSIBLY understand what its like to raise one". There is NOTHING that offends me more than that comment. Women have raised amazing children and not given birth to them. Lots of people adopt and know how to raise children. 
In the past when people have asked me why I don't have children it was like a wound in my heart...cos I wanted one so badly. I thought their question was rude and inconsiderate. I always told them that I didn't want any (even though it wasn't true). Now I that am older and 400lbs. overweight, the chances of me having one are infinitesimal at best...and I am OKAY with that. When I am asked now why I dont have children...I always say, "its God's will, and mine--besides, I want to retire when I am 50 and purchase an island in the Pacific...can't do that if you have 18-21 years of dentist, doctor, school book fees and uniforms, extra curricular activities, and then finally college tuition." After thinking about it for a minute..and seeing a twinge of jealousy cross their face, they usually don't ask that question again.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 6, 2010)

My other issue with regret is this.

Virtually nobody has ever said they regretted having kids. If you did it would be ridiculously socially unacceptable, because the kids were already there and what kind of a monster would you be if you said you regretted having them.

However, I can't believe that parenting has not been a negative, or at least partly negative experience for some.

My thinking is, if I regret not having them, the only one who will be unhappy is me, and so what? My choice, my potential unhappiness. Nobody else's problem.

If somebody had kids due to familial or social pressure, or even has one willingly and then wishes they hadn't, you have made many people unhappy including yourself, your partner, possibly your relationship has suffered, and most of all the innocent kids who never asked to be born. An unwanted child is sad, and I think for somebody to know or suspect they were unwanted is awful. I once had a much older friend, well into his 60's who said his mom had told him she'd repeatedly climbed onto the kitchen table and jumped off, hoping to miscarry him. I can't fathom what kind of pain that causes that you carry it around your entire life and even when you're already a grandfather yourself, still remember that.



> I "don't HAVE a child how could I POSSIBLY understand what its like to raise one". There is NOTHING that offends me more than that comment. Women have raised amazing children and not given birth to them. Lots of people adopt and know how to raise children.



Oh lord, yes. Raising children you have not birthed has been done by generations of grandparents, foster parents, adoptive parents, steparents, nannies, nurses, older sibiling (Duggars, anyone????) and other relatives. I'm sorry but raising a child takes time, patience, common sense, love, and caring. Not procreative ability.


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## marlowegarp (Jan 6, 2010)

My response to almost any query, boast or anecdote by a parent (especially a stranger's) is "I'm more of a dog person." It's true and effective. It doesn't mean I don't like kids, they're just not of much interest to me. It's like religion, I guess. I would never begrudge someone the joy it brings to their life but personally, no thanks.


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## Tooz (Jan 6, 2010)

Tooz said:


> I would have a child past 25 anyway.



Hi typos.

That's supposed to be WOULDN'T.


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## mergirl (Jan 6, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Hi typos.
> 
> That's supposed to be WOULDN'T.


Really? why? I think 25 is pretty young. Though actually my friend just had a baby and she is 31 and the Docs said the risks were slightly higher because she was considered an 'older mother'. I found that crazy!


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 6, 2010)

Well it's not old "in real life" but biologically? yes.

Don't forget, female fertility declines each year, and whatever eggs you're born with are what you have for life. No matter how good you look or feel, your eggs are still 30+ years old, and the older they get, the more chance for problems.

Also you have to look ahead as far as how old will you be when the child is 5, 10 or 21. It's easy for a 50 year old to be around a newborn, but what 60 year old wants to chase around a ten year old, or be bothered going to Little League games or Brownie meetings? When you're well into your 60's or 70's you want to relax and enjoy retirement, or being at the apex of your career or traveling, not worrying about your recent college graduate kid not being able to find a job and hitting you up for rent money.


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## gypsy (Jan 6, 2010)

Tooz said:


> For me, I guess it's somewhat easy because not only do I not want kids, I don't LIKE kids. I just end up standing my ground.
> 
> "How can you not want/like children?"
> "I've always known I don't want/like children."
> ...



LOL, people have been saying that to me since I was 18, Tooz. Now I'm 38 and never wavered once in the fact that I don't like and don't want kids. And I'm just fine with it, even if they aren't - their problem, not mine.

I guess another thing I have in my favour is that I have no family. I don't get the pressure that a lot of people do to "carry on the family name" or "give Grandma a little baby to spoil". If mom and dad wanted the family name carried on they should have had more than one kid; likewise if Grandma wants a baby to spoil she should adopt one herself and drag out her good old maternal instincts directly. 

Incidentally, if anyone ever pushes me like they did to you (which I have had happen) I tell them lightheartedly that my method of babysitting is duct tape and a tazer. That shuts them up pretty quickly.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 6, 2010)

Tooz said:


> For me, I guess it's somewhat easy because not only do I not want kids, I don't LIKE kids. I just end up standing my ground.
> 
> "How can you not want/like children?"
> "I've always known I don't want/like children."
> ...



I remember having such a conversation with someone before. I was the inquisitor and merely asked, "What if?" but I wasn't asserting anything about her. It was the first time I'd really had a chance to sit down and talk with someone who was dead set against having children so I was really just out to pick her brain and see how it worked, not change her mind. I didn't care one way of the other. Now I'm worried that I may have offended her.  

Just bear in mind that someone who may be shooting questions at you may not be judging you per se. Since I had that conversation I've met more and more people who simply don't want children. It's definitley not a rare thing. If people ask you if you will change your mind just tell them you wont with finality and that this is the type of thing you just 'know' about yourself. That's all that really needs to be said I should think.


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## Lovelyone (Jan 6, 2010)

I've been thinking (and stewing) about this all day. The questions "Why don't you have children?" and "When are you going to start having children?" truly are intrusive and IMHO, a very insensitive and rude question.
Not only is it none of their business...but those questions could be extremely painful to answer. I think some people tend to forget that for some women its impossible to have children, and by asking those questions you may be opening up a tender wound for them and causing them undeserved suffering. There are any number of reasons why they dont have children, ranging from not wanting them to having a medical condition that makes it impossible. I think that those questions are better left unasked--cos really if the person wanted you to know why they don't have children, they would tell you or, open a conversation about it..etc.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Jan 6, 2010)

I don't want kids........never have. When I come to a place in my life where I could see having a child (financially, medically, etc), I still wouldn't want one. I'd want that time for myself and my kids (parrots), and would probably (ok, would lol) adopt more kids (parrots).  I've never really felt maternal, except towards non-humans lol. I don't even like monkeys and other primates (except lemurs). 

I'll be that old crazy parrot lady yelling at kids to 'get off my lawn'. rofl   

Oh, and studies show that childless couples are happier than couples with children.


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## mergirl (Jan 7, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> I don't want kids........never have. When I come to a place in my life where I could see having a child (financially, medically, etc), I still wouldn't want one. I'd want that time for myself and my kids (parrots), and would probably (ok, would lol) adopt more kids (parrots).  I've never really felt maternal, except towards non-humans lol. I don't even like monkeys and other primates (except lemurs).
> 
> I'll be that old crazy parrot lady yelling at kids to 'get off my lawn'. rofl
> 
> Oh, and studies show that childless couples are happier than couples with children.


I feel the same! 
OH!! i had a dream where i was pregnant last night. I HATE them! Oh and green eyes fairy was in it. Nothing naughty   just talking to me about giving birth! haha.. I should stop reading this thread its giving me nightmares!!!! 
I would rather have a lemur or a parrot than a baby any day. There is a wee farm park near here that keeps parrots and one has a really broad glasweigian accent and says "whit dae ye think you are dayin??!" -First time i heard him i almost shat myself!!!


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 7, 2010)

> *If mom and dad wanted the family name* carried on they should have had more than one kid; likewise if Grandma wants a baby to spoil she should adopt one herself and drag out her good old maternal instincts directly.



This has perenially been one of the things I've never understood. What the hell is the big deal about a family name? Are you so proud of your name, which is something you had absolutely nothing to do with, that you are afraid to die unless you can be sure that somebody else in world has it? I can understand maybe something like a family business that you grew and it meant a lot to you or your relatives, but just a name? No.


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## Tooz (Jan 7, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Really? why? I think 25 is pretty young. Though actually my friend just had a baby and she is 31 and the Docs said the risks were slightly higher because she was considered an 'older mother'. I found that crazy!





LoveBHMS said:


> Also you have to look ahead as far as how old will you be when the child is 5, 10 or 21. It's easy for a 50 year old to be around a newborn, but what 60 year old wants to chase around a ten year old, or be bothered going to Little League games or Brownie meetings? When you're well into your 60's or 70's you want to relax and enjoy retirement, or being at the apex of your career or traveling, not worrying about your recent college graduate kid not being able to find a job and hitting you up for rent money.



Mergirl, this is exactly it. Were I to want a child, I would want it out of my nest well before retirement. I am having trouble becoming financially independent in this economic climate, and my mother is having to help me. She will be 61 this year. She needs to be preparing for retirement, not supporting my lame ass.



gypsy said:


> LOL, people have been saying that to me since I was 18, Tooz. Now I'm 38 and never wavered once in the fact that I don't like and don't want kids. And I'm just fine with it, even if they aren't - their problem, not mine.
> 
> I guess another thing I have in my favour is that I have no family. I don't get the pressure that a lot of people do to "carry on the family name" or "give Grandma a little baby to spoil". If mom and dad wanted the family name carried on they should have had more than one kid; likewise if Grandma wants a baby to spoil she should adopt one herself and drag out her good old maternal instincts directly.
> 
> Incidentally, if anyone ever pushes me like they did to you (which I have had happen) I tell them lightheartedly that my method of babysitting is duct tape and a tazer. That shuts them up pretty quickly.



I'm actually really lucky-- my family is never the source of the comments. My mother does not want grandchildren, and I don't think my father cares. Besides, my father has two other children, and I can say at least one of them will most certainly be having children. On my mother's side, my cousins all have children, so my grandmother is taken with them, not me. 



LillyBBBW said:


> I remember having such a conversation with someone before. I was the inquisitor and merely asked, "What if?" but I wasn't asserting anything about her. It was the first time I'd really had a chance to sit down and talk with someone who was dead set against having children so I was really just out to pick her brain and see how it worked, not change her mind. I didn't care one way of the other. Now I'm worried that I may have offended her.
> 
> Just bear in mind that someone who may be shooting questions at you may not be judging you per se. Since I had that conversation I've met more and more people who simply don't want children. It's definitley not a rare thing. If people ask you if you will change your mind just tell them you wont with finality and that this is the type of thing you just 'know' about yourself. That's all that really needs to be said I should think.



Oh, I know, and I'm usually much more patient when I know I'm not being judged. The problem is that, most often, there is an edge of judgement to the conversation, because the questions are coming from someone who barely knows me.



LoveBHMS said:


> This has perenially been one of the things I've never understood. What the hell is the big deal about a family name? Are you so proud of your name, which is something you had absolutely nothing to do with, that you are afraid to die unless you can be sure that somebody else in world has it? I can understand maybe something like a family business that you grew and it meant a lot to you or your relatives, but just a name? No.



Well, maybe I can shed a little light? I am proud, in some way, of my name. It is a very uncommon name, and so it is part of me kinda. I probably won't change it when I get married. So, I sort of understand-- but not if it's a common name maybe?


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 7, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> This has perenially been one of the things I've never understood. What the hell is the big deal about a family name? Are you so proud of your name, which is something you had absolutely nothing to do with, that you are afraid to die unless you can be sure that somebody else in world has it? I can understand maybe something like a family business that you grew and it meant a lot to you or your relatives, but just a name? No.



It's a thing for a lot of people. My family gets together for a yearly foliage outing where we all go to some New England farm to pick apples. That's 35 people on a rented bus. My mother.... good gawd she gets SO gassed for this trip. She's just shy of screaming at the top of her lungs to anyone who stands near or makes eye contact that these are all of her grands and great grands clawing their way about through the weeds. I fight off huge fits of embarassment whenever she does this but I somehow know that it really is a thing for people so I try to act natural. After my dad had been sick for a long time and had a kidney replacement he practically had one foot in the grave and the other one on a banana peel. My sister announced she was having a boy and it was like night and day. He was over her house every day drilling holes in the wall, building things and hanging stuff up. The kid believes his grandpa hung the moon itself. It really is a thing, like being a storm chaser I guess.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Jan 7, 2010)

mergirl said:


> I feel the same!
> OH!! i had a dream where i was pregnant last night. I HATE them! Oh and green eyes fairy was in it. Nothing naughty   just talking to me about giving birth! haha.. I should stop reading this thread its giving me nightmares!!!!
> I would rather have a lemur or a parrot than a baby any day. There is a wee farm park near here that keeps parrots and one has a really broad glasweigian accent and says "whit dae ye think you are dayin??!" -First time i heard him i almost shat myself!!!



You know that GEF........she's everywhere <quickly looking around  > .

A former neighbor jumped two feet back when Scrab started growling at him (that's a natural sound Grey's make when they're not too pleased lol).


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 7, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> It's a thing for a lot of people. My family gets together for a yearly foliage outing where we all go to some New England farm to pick apples. That's 35 people on a rented bus. My mother.... good gawd she gets SO gassed for this trip. She's just shy of screaming at the top of her lungs to anyone who stands near or makes eye contact that these are all of her grands and great grands clawing their way about through the weeds. I fight off huge fits of embarassment whenever she does this but I somehow know that it really is a thing for people so I try to act natural. After my dad had been sick for a long time and had a kidney replacement he practically had one foot in the grave and the other one on a banana peel. My sister announced she was having a boy and it was like night and day. He was over her house every day drilling holes in the wall, building things and hanging stuff up. The kid believes his grandpa hung the moon itself. It really is a thing, like being a storm chaser I guess.



Well I was referring more to just the actual name concept, not the idea of liking an extended family or wanting kids or grandkids.

I'm not at all saying I don't understand that this is a huge part of some people's life plans and that if it doesn't happen it could be very difficult or sad. And I do understand that family/extended family is everything to some people. 

I guess I just wish, as the OP stated, people could understand that birthing and raising kids is not in everyone's life plan. I have never ever ever pictured myself as a parent. I never had dolls when I was a kid. I babysat to make money but never really got all geeked up being around kids. I never did anything with my parents or grandparents where I thought "Oh i can't wait to do this with my own kids or grandkids one day". I don't enjoy children in general. If I encounter one while I'm working or someplace in public and he or she talks to me, I get annoyed and look around for the parents. I may find one or two individual kids cute, and very very rarely see a kid doing something I find cute, but for the most part I just don't really want to talk to them or play with them.


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## comaseason (Jan 7, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> I have never ever ever pictured myself as a parent. I never had dolls when I was a kid.



I had a baby doll once. I would throw it up in the air and then not catch it, let it hit the pavement and then kneel down and say "Oh my! Did you hurt yourself?"

Yea, I'm not meant for the kids.


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## gypsy (Jan 7, 2010)

mergirl said:


> There is a wee farm park near here that keeps parrots and one has a really broad glasweigian accent and says "whit dae ye think you are dayin??!" -First time i heard him i almost shat myself!!!



Now you know you MUST go there and get a video of this, Mer!


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 7, 2010)

> Mergirl, this is exactly it. Were I to want a child, I would want it out of my nest well before retirement. I am having trouble becoming financially independent in this economic climate, and my mother is having to help me. She will be 61 this year. She needs to be preparing for retirement, not supporting my lame ass.



Another thing about parenting when you're older, from what i've observed a lot of people just get more set in their ways as far as lifestyle and activities and find it harder to adjust to being a parent. I see way too many people who go overboard with the whole "We'll just take the baby with us!" mentality because they need to prove either to themselves or the world at large that having a kids doesn't need to be a big change in your life. Parenting does, and should involve sacrifices, and seeing parents dragging kids to age innappropriate venues like bars or the theater is just wrong. The kids are typically tired or bored and the other customers get annoyed. I used to see people bringing kids to happy hour at the bar where I worked, or having them out to dinner when it was clearly long past the kids' bedtime. Oftentimes the parents didn't even watch them because they were busy chatting with their friends and the kids would run around and make trouble. It's not uncommon to see the same thing in movies or museums.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 7, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Well I was referring more to just the actual name concept, not the idea of liking an extended family or wanting kids or grandkids.
> 
> I'm not at all saying I don't understand that this is a huge part of some people's life plans and that if it doesn't happen it could be very difficult or sad. And I do understand that family/extended family is everything to some people.
> 
> I guess I just wish, as the OP stated, people could understand that birthing and raising kids is not in everyone's life plan. I have never ever ever pictured myself as a parent. I never had dolls when I was a kid. I babysat to make money but never really got all geeked up being around kids. I never did anything with my parents or grandparents where I thought "Oh i can't wait to do this with my own kids or grandkids one day". I don't enjoy children in general. If I encounter one while I'm working or someplace in public and he or she talks to me, I get annoyed and look around for the parents. I may find one or two individual kids cute, and very very rarely see a kid doing something I find cute, but for the most part I just don't really want to talk to them or play with them.



It seems to have more to do with clashing wants than anything. My mom was an only child and her parents died when she was very young, just barely out of the single digits agewise. Family and roots are all very important to her, to an annoying degree. She wants me and my sister to live together, and so fourth. My sister was irritating enough even before she had kids. No way am I going to live with her now. I love my sister from a distance but we just simply can't live together. My mother doesn't get that and that's cool. She's never going to let go of this fantasy though. It's all the same muck. You'll never stop hearing the fantasy and they'll never stop hearing 'no' when it's brought up. You have to stand your ground though. They won't realize anything because there is nothing to realize. These things are all about them, not you.


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## Shosh (Jan 7, 2010)

Lovelyone said:


> I've been thinking (and stewing) about this all day. The questions "Why don't you have children?" and "When are you going to start having children?" truly are intrusive and IMHO, a very insensitive and rude question.
> Not only is it none of their business...but those questions could be extremely painful to answer. I think some people tend to forget that for some women its impossible to have children, and by asking those questions you may be opening up a tender wound for them and causing them undeserved suffering. There are any number of reasons why they dont have children, ranging from not wanting them to having a medical condition that makes it impossible. I think that those questions are better left unasked--cos really if the person wanted you to know why they don't have children, they would tell you or, open a conversation about it..etc.



This really resonates with me Terri.

When I was younger I always thought I would have children later. I was busy doing other things.
I did not know that I would get Multiple Sclerosis, and suffer as I have.
It has taken me quite a while to come to terms with the fact that I am just not well enough to ever have a child. It would not be fair on the child, as I have days when I struggle to even take care of myself.
I have struggled with feeling like less of a woman because of it, but I just have to remind myself that I am a good and whole person regardless that I will never be able to have a child.
Some women look at you like you are less of a woman when you are childless, but I just have to block that out and go on.


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## littlefairywren (Jan 7, 2010)

comaseason said:


> I had a baby doll once. I would throw it up in the air and then not catch it, let it hit the pavement and then kneel down and say *"Oh my! Did you hurt yourself?"*
> 
> Yea, I'm not meant for the kids.



OMG, this made me laugh so hard....poor baby doll


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## Blackhawk2293 (Jan 7, 2010)

Lovelyone said:


> I've been thinking (and stewing) about this all day. The questions "Why don't you have children?" and "When are you going to start having children?" truly are intrusive and IMHO, a very insensitive and rude question.
> Not only is it none of their business...but those questions could be extremely painful to answer. I think some people tend to forget that for some women its impossible to have children, and by asking those questions you may be opening up a tender wound for them and causing them undeserved suffering. There are any number of reasons why they dont have children, ranging from not wanting them to having a medical condition that makes it impossible. I think that those questions are better left unasked--cos really if the person wanted you to know why they don't have children, they would tell you or, open a conversation about it..etc.



Lovelyone, I work in Child Protection here in Sydney doing investigations and risk assessments of children that have been physically, sexually, psychologically abused and/or neglected and more often than not I end up asking people why they had children rather than why they haven't.

In my three and a half years on the job I've seen some horrid things happen to children and it's quite a common debate in the office about whether certain parents (the ones who have multiple children that end up in foster care) should be compelled by law to get a vasectomy or their tubes tied so that they can't have any more children.

I applaud the parents that actually choose to put their kids ahead of themselves because I've seen too many that don't and so if you're choosing not to have children (not meaning "you" personally), good for you because that makes you ten times more child focused than some of the parents that I deal with day to day.

I do agree that those questions about why people don't have children are very intrusive and offensive, especially to those who medically cannot have kids.


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## Tooz (Jan 7, 2010)

Blackhawk2293 said:


> Lovelyone, I work in Child Protection here in Sydney doing investigations and risk assessments of children that have been physically, sexually, psychologically abused and/or neglected and more often than not I end up asking people why they had children rather than why they haven't.
> 
> In my three and a half years on the job I've seen some horrid things happen to children and it's quite a common debate in the office about whether certain parents (the ones who have multiple children that end up in foster care) should be compelled by law to get a vasectomy or their tubes tied so that they can't have any more children.
> 
> ...



You make some great points. People have told me I'm a bad person because I dislike kids and know I don't want them, but doesn't that make me a RESPONSIBLE person for not having the kid?


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## Blackhawk2293 (Jan 7, 2010)

Tooz said:


> You make some great points. People have told me I'm a bad person because I dislike kids and know I don't want them, but doesn't that make me a RESPONSIBLE person for not having the kid?



Thanks Tooz, that's the exact word I was looking for... "Responsible"

People who choose not to have kids are responsible enough to actually admit to themselves and to others that they don't want kids and that is far better than someone that has a kid and then abuses or mistreats the child to the point of abandonment, dysfunction, injury, statutory involvement or death.


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## Frankie (Jan 7, 2010)

Who's with me on this?

*baby enters room*
Me: *yawn*

*cat enters room*
Me: *erupts with joy* "Gimme da widdle kitty!!"


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## mossystate (Jan 7, 2010)

Frankie said:


> Who's with me on this?
> 
> *baby enters room*
> Me: *yawn*
> ...




Can I choose both scenarios?



OK, so the kid thing happens when the baby belongs to the S clan. My people make great human beings. :happy:

I don't go all gaga over the kids of others, unless they are close friends. Now, I do tend to make eye contact and make a subtle weird face when I see a kid in line at a store ( kids love that shit ). I was never in a situation where having a kid would have been the right decision, but when it comes to family babies, we would all pretty much fight over who first got to get our paws on the little ones. I have always been that way with nieces and nephews. I just love that new ( clean ) baby smell.

My parents never asked if I was going to have kids. With 10 of their own, they probably always knew there would be at least one grandkid. They might have wondered, but I never heard it. They also never...ever...got into ' you should do this or that with your kids ', with my brothers and sisters. There are times where I get a little sad, knowing I don't have a kidlet, but it has never been anything that has eaten at me. Again, probably because I had so many siblings and a number of nieces and nephews. And, I was always smart enough to know it was not a good idea. I like regular sleep. lol

When she was a little girl, my niece Jessica, who is now in her 20's, and a mom to a little boy, had asked me if I was going to be a mommy...because I would make a great mom. I still remember that, and I think I would have been a wonderful parent ( taking into consideration the curveballs... ). Little kids seem to like me, and I don't have to go into some of the contortions some do to get a kid to like them. Little kids know who think of them as actual humans. I like to make contact with little ones...and old ones...because they are both at the beginning and ends of their lives, and too many people dismiss them...in real ways.

I have had a few friends and friends of friends, ask me why I didn't have kids...and I just say it was never a good time......and I have usually always had loaners...when I needed a fix. 

It's all good.....it kind of has to be.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Jan 8, 2010)

Frankie said:


> Who's with me on this?
> 
> *baby enters room*
> Me: *yawn*
> ...



Me!!!!!!!!!!!


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 9, 2010)

Frankie said:


> Who's with me on this?
> 
> *baby enters room*
> Me: *yawn*
> ...



This times 2.

I love kitties!!!!

And dogs. And pretty much every animal more than I like babies.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 9, 2010)

Tooz said:


> You make some great points. People have told me I'm a bad person because I dislike kids and know I don't want them, but doesn't that make me a RESPONSIBLE person for not having the kid?



I agree 100%


I like being a mom....so it works for _me_- everyone is not me. I get that part......


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## lypeaches (Jan 12, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> This times 2.
> 
> I love kitties!!!!
> 
> And dogs. And pretty much every animal more than I like babies.



So, I'm going to guess, I'm not the only one who's annoyed whenever I see Americas Funniest Home Videos. 9 times out of 10, the "funniest" video is some kid with snot hanging out of his nose,or peeing, or farting. Or whacking some unfortunate person in the nuts. The animal videos, which are always much cuter / funnier in my opinion, hardly ever win. 

ok, well, if that's my biggest complaint I guess my life ain't so bad...lol


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## activistfatgirl (Jan 12, 2010)

I really wish I lived in a world where people showered me with presents anytime I get a new cat. Can you imagine? Oh! The fun we'd have!


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## MizzSnakeBite (Jan 12, 2010)

activistfatgirl said:


> I really wish I lived in a world where people showered me with presents anytime I get a new cat. Can you imagine? Oh! The fun we'd have!



Yeah!!!!! 

And if you got a whole herd of cats you'd be on TV, get a free house, all the litter boxes you could ever want, people to come over and clean up and entertain them, and a free education for each one!!!!   

That needs to happen 'cause I want some more birdies!


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 13, 2010)

activistfatgirl said:


> I really wish I lived in a world where people showered me with presents anytime I get a new cat. Can you imagine? Oh! The fun we'd have!



This makes me think pet stores should have gift registries the same as baby stores. You could register for new water dishes, catnip mice, toys, treats, etc. It would be so sweet.


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## lypeaches (Jan 13, 2010)

Fantastic idea....


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## mergirl (Jan 13, 2010)

gypsy said:


> Now you know you MUST go there and get a video of this, Mer!


Yes..I shall!! Though, the parrot only said this to me and no one else believed me!! When everyone else met up with me (i am prone to wander) He was saying stuff like "hello, i'm buster" and i'm sure he was giving me the evil eye!!


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## MizzSnakeBite (Jan 13, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Yes..I shall!! Though, the parrot only said this to me and no one else believed me!! When everyone else met up with me (i am prone to wander) He was saying stuff like "hello, i'm buster" and i'm sure he was giving me the evil eye!!



Oh they like to do that (mess with our silly, weak, human minds  ).


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## thatgirl08 (Jan 15, 2010)

oh my god a cat showerrrrrrrrr <3 That would be awesome.


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## kayrae (Jan 19, 2010)




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## goofy girl (Jan 19, 2010)

kayrae said:


>



OMG I had this SAME EXACT conversation with my Dr.


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## Tooz (Jan 21, 2010)

goofy girl said:


> OMG I had this SAME EXACT conversation with my Dr.



Yup. It's ridiculous. Women need to be able to have control over their bodies, and we don't.


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## poultrygeist (May 15, 2010)

kayrae said:


>



I recently had this conversation with an incredibly condescending (female) OB GYN a month ago. I knew ever since I was 11 that I did not want children, and as I grew older I found increasingly compelling reasons to remain childless (and, of course, I mean absolutely no disrespect to the mothers out there, or those who do plan on having children - what you mothers do is absolutely commendable) - and all those reasons were cited in this thread by previous posters.

Anyway, I decided at the age of 11/12 that I wanted to ensure that I would remain childless by getting sterilised when I would get older. I've done a lot of research on methods of sterilisation, and have decided on the Essure procedure (for those of you who aren't familiar with Essure, it's a minimally invasive method of sterilisation - no abdominal incisions, no cauterisation of the fallopian tubes, no hospitalisation, no general anesthesia, and performed in a physician's office under local anesthesia; recovery period is rapid, unlike other invasive methods such as tubal ligation and laparascopic sterlisation...sorry if I get carried away, I'm eventually heading off to medical school).

So I finally decided to talk to an OB GYN about the Essure procedure, and seeing that I'm 23, I'm all too aware of the fact that I'd be hard-pressed to find an OB GYN who would be willing to sterilise me. I was definitely expecting a battle, but what I ended up actually encountering from the OB GYN was far worse than anything I had expected. 

After telling me that I might change my mind, and going on about how once I have a child I'll grow to love it, and detailing personal anecdotes about friends she knew in medical school who were ambivalent about having children but ended up with multiple children and grew to love them, etc., she said that if I do end up getting sterilised, that she'd be more comfortable with me getting a tubal ligation (I don't want a tubal ligation because I don't want abdominal incisions + the additional costs of hospitalisation + costs and risks of general anesthesia), and that she wouldn't flat-out "refuse" to perform the surgery on me, but that she would make me "jump through a lot of hoops" and that she would make it "difficult" for me. And get this - she wanted a note from a psychologist or a therapist confirming my emotional stability. In fact, she even mentioned having a conference with a psychologist to confirm that I'm emotionally stable and want to be sterilised for the "right reasons". :doh:

I never saw that OB GYN again and am still seething from that experience. If I'm old enough to decide to have children, I'm certainly old enough to decide to _not_ have children. I'm just infuriated by all these barriers that exist to prevent women from exercising their reproductive rights. I've always wondered why such rigorous screening processes don't exist for people who do decide to have children, seeing all the children who didn't ask to be born to parents who didn't want them to begin with and end up abused, abandoned, neglected, etc. Or simply raised by parents who half-assed the task of raising their children (I'm in this category). 

Anyway, I know this all probably sounds like a massively incoherent, unintelligible ramble (I'm tired), but being prevented from making a perfectly responsible reproductive choice by condescending OB GYNs who think I lack the capacity to know any better really _pisses_ me off.


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## poultrygeist (May 15, 2010)

Oh wow, just realised that this was a _really_ old thread. Sorry, guys!


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## Lamia (May 15, 2010)

It's not that old. I kind of understand why they don't want to sterlize because they can't reverse it. Sort of like a sex change. I don't want children either and had never considered sterlization, but then wasn't sexually active so it wasn't an issue. 
Sometimes I feel like it's my duty as an educated, awesome person to flood the world with my offspring, but then I remember I don't want to.


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## LillyBBBW (May 15, 2010)

poultrygeist said:


> I recently had this conversation with an incredibly condescending (female) OB GYN a month ago. I knew ever since I was 11 that I did not want children, and as I grew older I found increasingly compelling reasons to remain childless (and, of course, I mean absolutely no disrespect to the mothers out there, or those who do plan on having children - what you mothers do is absolutely commendable) - and all those reasons were cited in this thread by previous posters.
> 
> Anyway, I decided at the age of 11/12 that I wanted to ensure that I would remain childless by getting sterilised when I would get older. I've done a lot of research on methods of sterilisation, and have decided on the Essure procedure (for those of you who aren't familiar with Essure, it's a minimally invasive method of sterilisation - no abdominal incisions, no cauterisation of the fallopian tubes, no hospitalisation, no general anesthesia, and performed in a physician's office under local anesthesia; recovery period is rapid, unlike other invasive methods such as tubal ligation and laparascopic sterlisation...sorry if I get carried away, I'm eventually heading off to medical school).
> 
> ...



There have been enough stories of people who insisted they would never want children, then when they got older they changed their minds. There are no statistics available as to the percentage of "CBC" people whom that happens to but it happens often enough so that I can understand where the doctor is coming from. She's not you, she can't know what's going on in your head. Before she does a life altering irreversable procedure on you I can understand why she would want to make sure she's helping you and not ruining your life. It happens sometimes. Her delivery could have probably used some work but I think overall she's trying to run a responsible practice. Blow this doctor off but if you get a similar response elsewhere you may want to consider the shrink. It probably wouldn't take as long as it seems to get the shrink to see that you're of sound mind in this and say so in a letter. This way the doctor is covered from any potential liability in the future even if it's only from a guilty conscience.


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## LoveBHMS (May 15, 2010)

> And get this - she wanted a note from a psychologist or a therapist confirming my emotional stability. In fact, she even mentioned having a conference with a psychologist to confirm that I'm emotionally stable and want to be sterilised for the "right reasons".



Much as i hate to say it, this may well be from a medical malpractice/litigious point of view. Malpractice insurance rates are insane, my former doctor, a solo practioner GP who never went near an operating room or delivered a baby had to pay over $10K/year. i've read many stories of OB/GYN literally being unable to afford to practice anymore because of the insurance rates. All it would take would be a single lawsuit from a woman claiming she should have been talked out of sterilization and how "malpractice" left her infertile, to ruin a doctor's career.


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## Blackhawk2293 (May 16, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Much as i hate to say it, this may well be from a medical malpractice/litigious point of view. Malpractice insurance rates are insane, my former doctor, a solo practioner GP who never went near an operating room or delivered a baby had to pay over $10K/year. i've read many stories of OB/GYN literally being unable to afford to practice anymore because of the insurance rates. All it would take would be a single lawsuit from a woman claiming she should have been talked out of sterilization and how "malpractice" left her infertile, to ruin a doctor's career.




That is a very good point that LoveBHMS has made here poultrygeist. Having your personal choice validated with a medical procedure can be empowering but because of the permanence of it, I doubt there are many doctors out there that would jump straight out of their chair to do it. I agree that the doctor could have put her recommendation in a better way but doctors run a massive risk of being sued over anything and everything and so it's more likely that this one was actually trying to protect herself from being sued down the track... not saying that you would do it poultrygeist but there is always going to be someone that does.

That being said, I can understand your desire to have yourself sterilized. It is the ultimate control and way to exercise your rights, elect to have surgery to enforce a personal choice that you have made. Personally I wouldn't do it as I'm not a fan of using medicine this way... maybe I'm a bit biased because my dad is a doctor. But I have always believed that medical procedures should be an absolute last resort.

I personally don't have any desire to have children either, but I have another way of enforcing and standing by my decision... I work in Child Protection. LOL


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## HappyFatChick (May 16, 2010)

I prefer to call it child-free. By choice. By very smart, good choice.:wubu:


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## fatgirlflyin (May 16, 2010)

HappyFatChick said:


> I prefer to call it child-free. By choice. By very smart, good choice.:wubu:



For you...


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## HappyFatChick (May 16, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> For you...



Love kids. Just don't want any.


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## Fat Brian (May 16, 2010)

Not long after my wife and I were married I sought out a Vasectomy due to her health problems and things. I was willing to have it done since we both don't want kids and with her health things it would have just been easier for me to do it. After going to a few doctors who all told me same things as above we gave up on it, I understand why they won't do it but some people just really don't want kids.


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## LoveBHMS (May 16, 2010)

Fat Brian said:


> Not long after my wife and I were married I sought out a Vasectomy due to her health problems and things. I was willing to have it done since we both don't want kids and with her health things it would have just been easier for me to do it. After going to a few doctors who all told me same things as above we gave up on it, I understand why they won't do it but some people just really don't want kids.



Not trying to disprove my own point here, but didn't you have a post a while back stating that your wife did want to get pregnant and you needed to see a specialist?


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## Jes (May 16, 2010)

Fat Brian said:


> Not long after my wife and I were married I sought out a Vasectomy due to her health problems and things. I was willing to have it done since we both don't want kids and with her health things it would have just been easier for me to do it. After going to a few doctors who all told me same things as above we gave up on it, I understand why they won't do it but some people just really don't want kids.


You a good liar? i'm wondering if, after finding a new doctor who doesn't know your history, you just lie and say you have 3 kids and enough is enough. I mean, you do a little song and dance to make it sound legit, and maybe no one knows better? It's not like they're going to force you to bring the tots in for playtime. If the doctor thinks your wife should be there, just practice the story at home a few times and you're good to go.

I've never heard of this being done, but I don't see why it might not be worth a shot. Or am I totally off base?


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## Fat Brian (May 16, 2010)

Yes, she did think she wanted to get pregnant about two years ago. After going to a few specialists for fertility and some to deal with her bipolar and things she abandoned the idea. My stepmother had just had a baby and my wife thought she wanted one too but the doctor visits reasserted her childless feelings. We got another cat instead.

Every once in a while the mommyhood hormones get riled up but the effect is never long enough to actually pursue it long term. She knows intellectually that having a baby would be extremely difficult for her due to her need for mood stabilizing meds and her fibromyalgia but sometimes the hormones try to override her better judgment. I have told her since then if she ever truly wants a child we will adopt one, that way she will not have to go through the physically demanding gestation phase and can jump right in to mommyhood in the best physical shape she can. She is happy with this decision because pregnancy terrifies her and she is not entirely sure she wants to pass on her health concerns just so she can have a baby.


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## indy500tchr (May 16, 2010)

Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them. 

So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.

There are people out there who don't want to get fat so they stay away from things that prevent them from gaining weight. Same premise.

You choose to have sex or to eat fattening foods you should be ready to deal with the possible consequences. If you can't handle it DON'T DO IT.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them.
> 
> So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.
> 
> ...



I don't know that I'd agree that the purpose of having sex is to have a child. It is a possible consequence/reward depending on which side of the fence you are on with the whole kid thing. I have sex because it feels good and I enjoy it, I don't want anymore children. I'm not going to stop having sex because I might get pregnant, I just know that its possible that I could end up having a baby if one or more forms of birth control failed.


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## indy500tchr (May 16, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> I don't know that I'd agree that the purpose of having sex is to have a child. It is a possible consequence/reward depending on which side of the fence you are on with the whole kid thing. I have sex because it feels good and I enjoy it, I don't want anymore children. I'm not going to stop having sex because I might get pregnant, I just know that its possible that I could end up having a baby if one or more forms of birth control failed.



Well Biblically yes that is what God intended sex to be for...to procreate. I guess if you don't believe in God it's just something to do. As a believer that's what I believe it's purpose is for. 

Do I expect every time I have sex I am going to get pregnant...NO. However unlike many on here they don't want to accept the consequences of that action like you or I do.


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## MisticalMisty (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them.
> 
> So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.
> 
> ...


It is completely unrealistic to tell a woman who has sexual needs, desires and fantasies to become abstinent if they do not want a child.

We are sexual animals for a reason. We and dolphins are about the only mammals that have sex for enjoyment. Telling someone to stop having sex is kind of ridiculous.

If a woman or man chooses to sterilize themselves, so be it. My hubby is and I'm very grateful that he chose to do it years ago. 

I'm a very sexual woman and I refuse to spend my marriage not having sex so I don't give birth.


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## Saoirse (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them.
> 
> So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.
> 
> ...


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## joswitch (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them.
> 
> So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.
> 
> ...





Contraception. 
Particularly "Double Dutch". 
Failure rate of 0.09%
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Double:dutch.htm


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## Tau (May 16, 2010)

I believe in God and I believe in having sex for the sheer pleasure of it not just for procreation. Using and enjoying and respecting our bodies is another way of worshiping Him. Our role on earth is not only to reproduce endlessly - that is not all that we are and I think its very, very problematic saying sex should only be for those who want to have babies. What about homosexual couples? They can't reproduce naturally - should they then just never have sex??? On my continent I wish more couples practised intelligent and responsible family planning. I wish more women were educated enough and independent enough to say no to endless pregnancies because once the babies are here - if they don't die horribly of AIDS - they live lives of constant deprivation and suffering.


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## indy500tchr (May 16, 2010)

MisticalMisty said:


> It is completely unrealistic to tell a woman who has sexual needs, desires and fantasies to become abstinent if they do not want a child.
> 
> We are sexual animals for a reason. We and dolphins are about the only mammals that have sex for enjoyment. Telling someone to stop having sex is kind of ridiculous.
> 
> ...



Yes I agree we are sexual animals for a reason. To procreate. Well my belief is if you have sex I think you should be open to the consequences. There are several humans out there who don't have sex exactly for that purpose. I don't think they are any less of a person for doing so.


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## indy500tchr (May 16, 2010)

Tau said:


> I believe in God and I believe in having sex for the sheer pleasure of it not just for procreation. Using and enjoying and respecting our bodies is another way of worshiping Him. Our role on earth is not only to reproduce endlessly - that is not all that we are and I think its very, very problematic saying sex should only be for those who want to have babies. *What about homosexual couples? They can't reproduce naturally - should they then just never have sex??? * On my continent I wish more couples practised intelligent and responsible family planning. I wish more women were educated enough and independent enough to say no to endless pregnancies because once the babies are here - if they don't die horribly of AIDS - they live lives of constant deprivation and suffering.



Oh I believe in having sex for pleasure too. But I also am open to the consequence of what might happen because of my actions. I take precautions to prevent it from happening but if it happens it happens. For those in homosexual relationships they don't have to worry about those consequences.

I do agree that people should practice better family planning but that's just it. It's called FAMILY planning for a reason. They want to have families.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Well Biblically yes that is what God intended sex to be for...to procreate. I guess if you don't believe in God it's just something to do. As a believer that's what I believe it's purpose is for.
> 
> Do I expect every time I have sex I am going to get pregnant...NO. However unlike many on here they don't want to accept the consequences of that action like you or I do.



I don't believe in god. Didn't god also say that sex should be between man and wife? I'm not a bible reader so I dont know if those are the exact words. 

I haven't seen anyone here say they wouldn't accept the consequences, just that they didn't want a baby. There are a bunch of different forms of birth control available for men and women who want to remain childless, sterilization for those who know they don't want kids ever, and abortion for when birth control fails.


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## indy500tchr (May 16, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> I don't believe in god. Didn't god also say that sex should be between man and wife? I'm not a bible reader so I dont know if those are the exact words.
> .



I guess that is all part of my cafeteria Catholicism. There are parts of the church that I believe in but several parts I do not agree with. One of them is the homosexuality part. I believe that everybody is a child of God and should be treated as such.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> I guess that is all part of my cafeteria Catholicism. There are parts of the church that I believe in but several parts I do not agree with. One of them is the homosexuality part. I believe that everybody is a child of God and should be treated as such.



Ok, and I guess this is the part of organized religion that I have the biggest issue with. 

Why do people get to make judgements about others and cite the bible as a reason, but then when their own behavior doesn't reflect what's found in the bible its not a problem?

I really don't care who does or doesn't have kids, their body their decision. I just hope that those that don't want them either learn to be good parents or give their child to someone who does want a baby.


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## indy500tchr (May 16, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Ok, and I guess this is the part of organized religion that I have the biggest issue with.
> 
> Why do people get to make judgements about others and cite the bible as a reason, but then when their own behavior doesn't reflect what's found in the bible its not a problem?
> 
> I really don't care who does or doesn't have kids, their body their decision. I just hope that those that don't want them either learn to be good parents or give their child to someone who does want a baby.



If you go back to my original post I was never judging people who never want to have kids. I actually said it was their choice. I was just saying that if you don't want it to happen just don't do what makes it happen. 

And I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph.


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## Saoirse (May 16, 2010)

So... its completely OK to have sex for pleasure... but ONLY if you want children and believe in a christian god.

word!


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## Tooz (May 16, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them.
> 
> So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.
> 
> ...




I am prepared. Abortions.


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## Jes (May 18, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> Ok I understand that there are women out there who don't want to have kids. That is there choice and that is all fine and dandy for them.
> 
> So in order to prevent that from never happening just don't have sex since the purpose of it is to procreate. Sure it feels good and for some it means connecting w/ their lover on several levels. However, the main reason for sex is procreation. You don't need surgery to prevent yourself from procreating. Just don't do what other women do who want to have children.
> 
> ...



God loves lesbians! sex sex sex w/o procreation!


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## kristineirl (May 18, 2010)

goofy girl said:


> And oh the LOOK OF HORROR when I tell people that I'm not having kids because I don't want them. Like I just shot Bambi's mother right in front of him for crying out loud.



I can relate to that! 

I don't want kids because I don't want kids, it really is that simple. As an emetophobic, I want nothing to do with morning sickness and I don't feel like I *should* make a baby because I have the capability to make one.


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## indy500tchr (May 18, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> I guess that is all part of my cafeteria Catholicism. There are parts of the church that I believe in but several parts I do not agree with. One of them is the homosexuality part. I believe that everybody is a child of God and should be treated as such.





Jes said:


> God loves lesbians! sex sex sex w/o procreation!



I agree with you! I love lesbians too. My best friend is one. Yes they don't have to worry about getting pregnant unless the other girlfriend has a turkey baster


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## pinkylou (May 19, 2010)

For what its worth, I think that its very unfair for other people to expect that anyone should automatically have kids just because they're married or in a long term relationship. I would have loved kids, but my ex husband decided that he didnt want any, and I had to respect his wishes. Now as Im getting older, I wouldnt want to try for a baby, Im okay with the fact that I wont have kids of my own, I have gorgeous nieces and nephews to pamper. I think with all the weirdos in the world that I would be very over protective of a child anyway, and would be so worried about anything and everything, so its probably as well that I dont have them lol!


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## crazygood (May 19, 2010)

Just had a conversation with a friend of my grandmother's the other day where she was reminiscing about me telling her at age 11 that I was an atheist and didn't want children. She thinks it's the most amazing thing that nearly 20 years later I'm still an atheist and child-free by choice. Some people just know!


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## largenlovely (May 19, 2010)

i related to 99.9% of this post ...the only part i didn't relate to is that i don't feel guilty for it lol....i just say "it is what it is"

I've always thought it was repulsive too though!! i say something growing inside you and then coming out is like something out of an alien movie!! people give me strange looks when i say that lol...but it's genuinely how i feel. You're not alone  



goofy girl said:


> Ok..what I'd REALLY like to say is that I think pregnancy is repulsive - yeah it's beautiful and a miracle and all that crap, but someone LIVING in my gut for 9 months?!? CREEPY - that I don't think it's worth it financially, and that I just don't want the responsibility. But those are probably worse responses than the "none of your business" one.
> 
> And oh the LOOK OF HORROR when I tell people that I'm not having kids because I don't want them. Like I just shot Bambi's mother right in front of him for crying out loud.
> 
> ...


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## Jes (May 19, 2010)

indy500tchr said:


> I agree with you! I love lesbians too. My best friend is one. Yes they don't have to worry about getting pregnant unless the other girlfriend has a turkey baster



but i understood you to say that sex exists for the purpose of procreation (though it has other benefits). So...


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## Saoirse (May 19, 2010)

Jes said:


> but i understood you to say that sex exists for the purpose of procreation (though it has other benefits). So...



yea, Im way confused.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 19, 2010)

largenlovely said:


> I've always thought it was repulsive too though!! i say something growing inside you and then coming out is like something out of an alien movie!! people give me strange looks when i say that lol...but it's genuinely how i feel. You're not alone



Can I just say that as a mother I find sentences like this very insulting. I don't judge anyone for not wanting to have kids, don't walk around saying there must be something wrong with them for not wanting to create, love, and nurture a baby (FWIW I don't think that anyway) so to have to see this kind of thing being said over and over again just sucks. 

Don't want a kid? Don't have one, its really that simple. You don't have to walk around talking about how disgusting or repulsive you think it is, because by extension you are applying those terms to everyone here who has chosen to have a child.


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## LoveBHMS (May 19, 2010)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Can I just say that as a mother I find sentences like this very insulting. I don't judge anyone for not wanting to have kids, don't walk around saying there must be something wrong with them for not wanting to create, love, and nurture a baby (FWIW I don't think that anyway) so to have to see this kind of thing being said over and over again just sucks.
> 
> Don't want a kid? Don't have one, its really that simple. You don't have to walk around talking about how disgusting or repulsive you think it is, because by extension you are applying those terms to everyone here who has chosen to have a child.



i honestly don't think what she said was insulting, she's just stating how she feels. i personally never had kids just because i don't like them, i never really thought about the biological side of it. i do find children in general to be boring and tedious and annoying; but that is how i feel and saying so is not an insult to parents because obviously they don't agree.

That being said, it's not a whole lot different from saying you don't like *anything* or even have some phobia. i have a fear of heights, but i don't think somebody who goes bungee jumping or skydiving is crazy. The idea of eating meat is repulsive to me, but i'm not calling those who eat it repulsive or crazy, just saying it's my personal view of it.


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## CastingPearls (May 19, 2010)

I like kids. Other peoples' kids. I have no desire to have them and married someone who didn't want them but if contraception ever fails, we would have and love the child. I've just never had that biological urge or ticking.

It doesn't bother me when people assume one of us is infertile or they ask when are we going to start a family. It's human nature and people seem indoctrinated to inquire. If I/we change our minds adoption is an option. 

What does irritate me is that people assume I'm dying for a child or that means I'm a built-in babysitter. Yeah, I can be counted on as a friend to help out but I get a feeling that they think I'm longing for a baby and are always handing their kids to me, as if they're consolation prizes. They don't seem to comprehend I really don't want one.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 19, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> i honestly don't think what she said was insulting, she's just stating how she feels. i personally never had kids just because i don't like them, i never really thought about the biological side of it. i do find children in general to be boring and tedious and annoying; but that is how i feel and saying so is not an insult to parents because obviously they don't agree.
> 
> That being said, it's not a whole lot different from saying you don't like *anything* or even have some phobia. i have a fear of heights, but i don't think somebody who goes bungee jumping or skydiving is crazy. The idea of eating meat is repulsive to me, but i'm not calling those who eat it repulsive or crazy, just saying it's my personal view of it.



We are all entitled to our opinions. I felt insulted, so I said so. I'm sure I'm not in the minority in feeing that way. I dont think anyone here personally set out to be insulting, but that doesn't make the message any less so (to me anyway).


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## largenlovely (May 19, 2010)

it was not intended to be insulting...if you find my opinion insulting well i'm sorry, but it's STILL my opinion. I can express how i feel on the subject when we're directly talking about wanting or not wanting to have children...it's how i feel and it's in a related thread....

it doesn't have anything to do with anyone else on this board who chooses to have children or who has had children...my thoughts about something growing inside my own body are my thoughts and i am able to express them



fatgirlflyin said:


> Can I just say that as a mother I find sentences like this very insulting. I don't judge anyone for not wanting to have kids, don't walk around saying there must be something wrong with them for not wanting to create, love, and nurture a baby (FWIW I don't think that anyway) so to have to see this kind of thing being said over and over again just sucks.
> 
> Don't want a kid? Don't have one, its really that simple. You don't have to walk around talking about how disgusting or repulsive you think it is, because by extension you are applying those terms to everyone here who has chosen to have a child.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 19, 2010)

largenlovely said:


> it was not intended to be insulting...if you find my opinion insulting well i'm sorry, but it's STILL my opinion. I can express how i feel on the subject when we're directly talking about wanting or not wanting to have children...it's how i feel and it's in a related thread....
> 
> it doesn't have anything to do with anyone else on this board who chooses to have children or who has had children...my thoughts about something growing inside my own body are my thoughts and i am able to express them



you don't have to apologize for your opinion, I certainly never asked you to. All I did was give my opinion too, we should all be able to do that without it turning into an issue. I didn't call your opinion stupid or say that you shouldn't feel that way. I just said that it made me uncomfortable and feel a little insulted. Simple as that.

ETA: I also said that I didn't believe that you intended to be insulting.


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## Tracyarts (May 19, 2010)

I don't find people who have children to be repulsive, but the thought of being pregnant and giving birth is repulsive *to me*. Which is one of the many reasons why I am child-free by choice. 

There are a lot of things I do that other people find repulsive. No skin off my nose. I have my reasons for doing them and that's good enough for me. I don't need their validation, and their repulsion doesn't affect me unless they use it as an excuse to treat me badly. 

But just the fact that something I do is repulsive to them? To each their own, there are lots of things I find repulsive too so it's all good in the end. 

Tracy


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## Lamia (May 20, 2010)

I have zero desire to have children, but I was talking to my niece who is pregnant for the 3rd time. She has a 2 and 3 year old. She loves kids. She said "I just love the idea of making another human being and bringing life into the world." It almost made me cry it's such a beautiful reason. She's such a good mommy. I just wish I shared her sentiment.


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## BigCutieClaudia (May 22, 2010)

Amen to the childless by choice posters here. I am another young woman who does not want children. I am constantly told that "oh you are young, one day you will change your mind." Don't count on it. There are many reasons why i do not want kids, many of them echoed in former posts on this thread. For one I am going to school for political science and law, by the time i graduate i will be entering the years where having a child can be downright dangerous. I also have genetic problems I do not wish to pass on. Aside from the medical reasons, there is no way on this earth that I am going to bust my ass in college so that i can go into the field of my dreams only to get preggers and push out a kid a few years later. Children need care, money, food, love and a whole host of other things none of which is returned to you..including their love until they are at an age where they can return it in their own way (and for some of them this could take a while) In addition to this, i will be frank with all of you. I do not like the world in which i live. People are cruel, this is a harsh place to live and we collectively as a species are destroying it bit by bit...i do not see the purpose in bringing a child into a world of suffering just to say i am a mother. 

The most remarkable thing i have seen when telling people i do not want children and why is this response from them that i am a selfish person. However, i have come to understand that i am indeed, selfish. I want a career, a means of expressing myself in this world. I want to spend my life helping others and giving voice to those who have none. I want to travel, learn about different languages and cultures other than my own. I enjoy my independence. What is interesting to me about the incidents where i was made to feel selfish is that most who have children are ALSO VERY SELFISH! People have children for the most insane, self serving reasons. They want someone to carry on the family name or the family blood line, they believe they can live once again through their children so they push them into hobbies and activities that the children themselves care little for but the parents are obsessed with. They want a doctor or lawyer or football player in the family..i could go on and on. So why is it that because I choose not to procreate that it is felt i am the only one with ego problems? Give me a break. Just because you have the biological components to have children does not make one a mother. Or a good one at that. We have enough screwed up people on the planet; some of those who said yes should've said NO.


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## Laura2008 (May 22, 2010)

BigCutieClaudia said:


> Amen to the childless by choice posters here. I am another young woman who does not want children. I am constantly told that "oh you are young, one day you will change your mind." Don't count on it. There are many reasons why i do not want kids, many of them echoed in former posts on this thread. For one I am going to school for political science and law, by the time i graduate i will be entering the years where having a child can be downright dangerous. I also have genetic problems I do not wish to pass on. Aside from the medical reasons, there is no way on this earth that I am going to bust my ass in college so that i can go into the field of my dreams only to get preggers and push out a kid a few years later. Children need care, money, food, love and a whole host of other things none of which is returned to you..including their love until they are at an age where they can return it in their own way (and for some of them this could take a while) In addition to this, i will be frank with all of you. I do not like the world in which i live. People are cruel, this is a harsh place to live and we collectively as a species are destroying it bit by bit...i do not see the purpose in bringing a child into a world of suffering just to say i am a mother.
> 
> The most remarkable thing i have seen when telling people i do not want children and why is this response from them that i am a selfish person. However, i have come to understand that i am indeed, selfish. I want a career, a means of expressing myself in this world. I want to spend my life helping others and giving voice to those who have none. I want to travel, learn about different languages and cultures other than my own. I enjoy my independence. What is interesting to me about the incidents where i was made to feel selfish is that most who have children are ALSO VERY SELFISH! People have children for the most insane, self serving reasons. They want someone to carry on the family name or the family blood line, they believe they can live once again through their children so they push them into hobbies and activities that the children themselves care little for but the parents are obsessed with. They want a doctor or lawyer or football player in the family..i could go on and on. So why is it that because I choose not to procreate that it is felt i am the only one with ego problems? Give me a break. Just because you have the biological components to have children does not make one a mother. Or a good one at that. We have enough screwed up people on the planet; some of those who said yes should've said NO.



This post mirrors my life and beliefs almost 100%. I, too, have been called selfish for not wanting children. I used to be offended but now I'm proud to say I'm selfish. I love being responsible for just myself. That's not to say that I wouldn't help my friends and family out if they need me. In fact, I do more often since I don't have to be home taking care of children.

Last December I had a hysterectomy at 31 years old. My doctor was hesitant and the ole you may want to have kids someday speech was told a few times. After a year and a half of biopsies, hormones meds, a D&C, and injections I finally said enough. My condition was precancerous and not improving. It's sad that the medical community will sacrifice someones health just because they may want kids someday. Like at 31 I'm not capable of making my own reproductive choices. It was the best decision I ever made. 

Sometimes I wonder if the people who shout the loudest with the whole your selfish for not having children bit aren't a bit jealous because of our freedom.


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## SuperSizedAngie (May 22, 2010)

At 19, I'm a barely an adult myself, why in the world would I choose to have kids right now when I'm in school and trying to get a degree? There's plenty of time for that later, if I decide I want a child later in life, but chances are I'll always be childless by choice.... I just don't know that I could handle having a baby, certainly not now and maybe not ever.


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## largenlovely (May 22, 2010)

BigCutieClaudia said:


> I am constantly told that "oh you are young, one day you will change your mind." Don't count on it.
> 
> The most remarkable thing i have seen when telling people i do not want children and why is this response from them that i am a selfish person. However, i have come to understand that i am indeed, selfish.
> 
> What is interesting to me about the incidents where i was made to feel selfish is that most who have children are ALSO VERY SELFISH! People have children for the most insane, self serving reasons. They want someone to carry on the family name or the family blood line, they believe they can live once again through their children so they push them into hobbies and activities that the children themselves care little for but the parents are obsessed with. They want a doctor or lawyer or football player in the family..i could go on and on. So why is it that because I choose not to procreate that it is felt i am the only one with ego problems? Give me a break. Just because you have the biological components to have children does not make one a mother. Or a good one at that. We have enough screwed up people on the planet; some of those who said yes should've said NO.


I was always told that i would eventually change my mind too...umm i'm 35 turning 36 this year...if it hasn't happened by now then i can't imagine something is gonna change in the next few reproductive years lol




Laura2008 said:


> This post mirrors my life and beliefs almost 100%. I, too, have been called selfish for not wanting children. I used to be offended but now I'm proud to say I'm selfish. I love being responsible for just myself. That's not to say that I wouldn't help my friends and family out if they need me. In fact, I do more often since I don't have to be home taking care of children.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if the people who shout the loudest with the whole your selfish for not having children bit aren't a bit jealous because of our freedom.



I know some who are jealous like that...that's definitely most assuredly a factor for some


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## jockewingoil (May 26, 2010)

I suppose some people here think they were hatched from eggs.


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## mossystate (May 26, 2010)

jockewingoil said:


> I suppose some people here think they were hatched from eggs.



Choice...in case you missed that part of the title.

or

Huh?


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## supersizebbw (May 26, 2010)

i'm turning 30 next month and i've never been in a long term relationship, and i think that may be the reason that i don't have any desire to have kids (for now). i've told myself that when i'm 40, man or no man i'll get pregnant...but untill then have about ten years to kill lol!


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## Fuzzy (May 26, 2010)

The title of the thread seems to be just.. Shouldn't it be ChildFree? Just sayin'


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## MizzSnakeBite (May 26, 2010)

jockewingoil said:


> I suppose some people here think they were hatched from eggs.



Um, no, I don't think people here think they're hatched. 

Just because our parents decided to have us doesn't mean that we automatically want our own children. It's about choice; just because some decide children aren't for them for various reasons, doesn't mean they're "lesser" people, and that they contribute less to society because they *choose* not to add to the population. 



supersizebbw said:


> i'm turning 30 next month and i've never been in a long term relationship, and i think that may be the reason that i don't have any desire to have kids (for now). i've told myself that when i'm 40, man or no man i'll get pregnant...but untill then have about ten years to kill lol!



It's not my business when you decide to have children (or if you decide whether of not to have children), BUT I feel I should say something..... I've spent literally my entire life around SPH (severe and profoundly handicapped) people. *A lot* of various birth defects happen when the mother is older (late 30s and on). Yes, it doesn't always happen, but the chances of something happening greatly increase. Big time. I promise you.....you don't want your future child to have the problems that I've seen over the years.....


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## supersizebbw (May 27, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> It's not my business when you decide to have children (or if you decide whether of not to have children), BUT I feel I should say something..... I've spent literally my entire life around SPH (severe and profoundly handicapped) people. *A lot* of various birth defects happen when the mother is older (late 30s and on). Yes, it doesn't always happen, but the chances of something happening greatly increase. Big time. I promise you.....you don't want your future child to have the problems that I've seen over the years.....



thanks for your post, i understand where your coming from and i'm aware that with age the chance of birth anomalies increase...but then again this could happen to anyone who gives birth at any age as well.... 

I choose not to have a child now because i'm just not ready, i'd rather wait and bring a child into this world when i know i'll be ready to love it unconditionally rather than just have a child now just for the sake of avoiding the chance of birth anomalies.


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## LovelyLiz (May 27, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> SNIPPED
> It's not my business when you decide to have children (or if you decide whether of not to have children), BUT I feel I should say something..... I've spent literally my entire life around SPH (severe and profoundly handicapped) people. *A lot* of various birth defects happen when the mother is older (late 30s and on). Yes, it doesn't always happen, but the chances of something happening greatly increase. Big time. I promise you.....you don't want your future child to have the problems that I've seen over the years.....



I get what you're saying Mizz, and agree that people need to keep in mind that there are different possibilities and probabilities as a mother ages. But I do want to say that my experience and viewpoint is a little different, so I hope it's okay if I chime in too.

Now, I know no one WANTS their children to have developmental or other kinds of disabilities...but as someone who has also spent her life hanging out with people (adults, kids, teens, etc.) with disabilities of varying levels of severity, and as a special education teacher I got to know lots of families too and to hear their stories, I don't think that having a child with severe disabilities has to be the death sentence people sometimes make it out to be. It will probably mean that your life looks different than when you originally planned, and your child will probably not have the kind of life you imagined for him/her, but it doesn't mean your life is going to be HORRIBLE, just DIFFERENT. 

We all get curveballs and surprises we don't bargain for, even parents with kids without disabilities have things their kids do or are that are super difficult and make their life different than they thought. But in my experience I have seen plenty of parents experience their children with disabilities (from mild to severe) as gifts and joys and the source of unexpected beauty. Is it all rainbows and ice cream? No. But I don't think raising _any _kid is all rainbows and ice cream. Raising kids with disabilities comes with unique kinds of challenges and joys all its own (and some that are the same as most other parents)...but on behalf of my friends with disabilities, and the parents and families I've met who love them, and just on my own behalf, I want to say that it's not the end of the world, and in fact it can open up some new and beautiful possibilities if only our imaginations are big enough.


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## GTAFA (May 27, 2010)

kristineirl said:


> I can relate to that!
> 
> I don't want kids because I don't want kids, it really is that simple. As an emetophobic, I want nothing to do with morning sickness and I don't feel like I *should* make a baby because I have the capability to make one.



The idea that every child is a wanted child should also include the notion that people have the freedom and wisdom to say "no thank you" to the very difficult and arduous pathway that is parenthood. It's a 20+ year commitment and should never be undertaken lightly.

I wish more people were as lucid as you are. When I think of the people I have met --both genders-- who thought they were supposed to have children but had not real empathy for kids, no idea about mentoring or parenting, no time for their children, no patience for crying... well, speaking of emetophobia, that makes me want to hurl come to think of it. Nothing is worse than people being coerced to do what they don't want to do. Or I could cry I suppose. 

The political correctness of parenthood --really motherhood, as fathers mostly get to hide behind Moms, who do 90% of the work -- is a terrible thing. We love our troops. We love our cops. We love our doctors. We love our moms. Anyone saying the least word that seems to disrespect these sacred creatures is asking for trouble. I respect my Mom precisely because i see how difficult the job was.


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## LoveBHMS (May 27, 2010)

One of my perennial favorite comebacks to anyone who questions the Childfree by Choice is, "Can you name five reasons you had kids that did not start with the words 'I wanted...""

People have kids for all sorts of reasons apart from "wanted to raise children into adulthood and provide them with a good life". I've heard everything from a hook into marriage, a hold on the future co-parent's bank account, wanted to 'feel like a real man/woman', competing with a sibling who'd given parents grandkids, holding together a weakening marriage, 'wanted a little boy to play football with' or a 'little girl to dress up', wanted somebody to love me, and even women who want a socially acceptable out from the workforce.

I think the childfree should be able to have any and all excuse, up to and including "none of your business" and "didn't want to gain weight and get stretchmarks."


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## MizzSnakeBite (May 27, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> I get what you're saying Mizz, and agree that people need to keep in mind that there are different possibilities and probabilities as a mother ages. But I do want to say that my experience and viewpoint is a little different, so I hope it's okay if I chime in too.
> 
> Now, I know no one WANTS their children to have developmental or other kinds of disabilities...but as someone who has also spent her life hanging out with people (adults, kids, teens, etc.) with disabilities of varying levels of severity, and as a special education teacher I got to know lots of families too and to hear their stories, I don't think that having a child with severe disabilities has to be the death sentence people sometimes make it out to be. It will probably mean that your life looks different than when you originally planned, and your child will probably not have the kind of life you imagined for him/her, but it doesn't mean your life is going to be HORRIBLE, just DIFFERENT.
> 
> We all get curveballs and surprises we don't bargain for, even parents with kids without disabilities have things their kids do or are that are super difficult and make their life different than they thought. But in my experience I have seen plenty of parents experience their children with disabilities (from mild to severe) as gifts and joys and the source of unexpected beauty. Is it all rainbows and ice cream? No. But I don't think raising _any _kid is all rainbows and ice cream. Raising kids with disabilities comes with unique kinds of challenges and joys all its own (and some that are the same as most other parents)...but on behalf of my friends with disabilities, and the parents and families I've met who love them, and just on my own behalf, I want to say that it's not the end of the world, and in fact it can open up some new and beautiful possibilities if only our imaginations are big enough.



Sorry if it came across that way. It wasn't meant like that.


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## LovelyLiz (May 28, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Sorry if it came across that way. It wasn't meant like that.



Ah ok, no worries. It's hard to tell sometimes what someone means in a post, and I was just feeling passionate so I wanted to throw my thoughts into the ring. Thanks for clarifying!


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## Your Plump Princess (May 28, 2010)

I can understand both points of the spectrum. 
Well, somewhat. Considering I'm only 20. 

But it's true, people who do not want to have children, shouldn't be harassed by family friends or strangers about their choice. 


I've always wondered, though, if it had to do.. Oh, jeeze, now I don't know how to explain it. 

If peoples view on childless couples is somewhat linked to how things were in more primitive times. [I'm so so sorry I cannot come up with a better explaination of my question.]


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## goofy girl (May 28, 2010)

Fuzzy said:


> The title of the thread seems to be just.. Shouldn't it be ChildFree? Just sayin'



When I made the thread I didn't even know there was a whole "movement" out in the world regarding this and I just went with what I was feeling. In my head -free and -less is still sort of interchangeable but if it's bothering people that much I can request to have the title of the thread changed since a few people have mentioned it by now.


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## Fuzzy (Jun 1, 2010)

ChildFree just seemed like a more liberating term than Childless.. (borrowing the term from the 80s Pepsi branding of PepsiFree) I could've been more 21st century and said Child Zero.


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## Blackhawk2293 (Jun 2, 2010)

GTAFA said:


> We love our cops.



People love cops? 

I thought cops was the most hated profession in the world... along with us Child Protection Service Workers of course. I constantly get abuse hurled at me about being a "baby stealer", "kidnapper" and so on.

Although I do have a lot of love for kids, which is why I feel compelled to go into a profession where I work to protect the ones that already exist.

I get some cops tell me they couldn't do my job and I jokingly rub it in that I will still never be as hated as they are. LOL


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## GTAFA (Jun 2, 2010)

Blackhawk2293 said:


> People love cops?
> 
> I thought cops was the most hated profession in the world... along with us Child Protection Service Workers of course. I constantly get abuse hurled at me about being a "baby stealer", "kidnapper" and so on.
> 
> ...



I guess it depends where you live. Yes, from what I understand in most parts of the world (eastern europe, asia, africa) police are to be feared and often are corrupt functionaries. When I was younger police were often targets of abuse in my city, but that has largely changed do to community policing, whereby we discover that they're human after all. Come to think of it, I sometimes get frustrated when I see someone on this board projecting an Ameri-centric view onto the rest of the world; and i may have just been guilty of the same thing. :doh:

I was very quietly railing against a tendency for people to assign a value to a profession or a role without looking at the person and whether they're actually living up to the special responsibilities of that role.


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## KittyKitten (Jun 2, 2010)

What makes me upset, some of the most intelligent people are not reproducing and chosen to remain childless. Yet, total dumb asses produce so many children, thus breeding even more dumbasses. 

Note: Not saying everyone who has children is a dumb ass by no mean, but you know what I mean.


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## olwen (Jun 2, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> What makes me upset, some of the most intelligent people are not reproducing and chosen to remain childless. Yet, total dumb asses produce so many children, thus breeding even more dumbasses.
> 
> Note: Not saying everyone who has children is a dumb ass by no mean, but you know what I mean.



Wait...I'm not exactly sure if you are referring to knowledge or wisdom. But I'm gonna assume you are talking about knowledge, so just because someone isn't book smart doesn't mean their offspring will also not be booksmart, same way there's no guarantee someone who is booksmart will always produce geniuses. It's kind of a slap in the face to people who were the first in their families to go to college and graduate and their parents. It's just as easy for someone who is the most loving caring smart parent in the world to produce a serial killer or a nobel prize winner. 

A parent/guardian can only do so much. You just have to hope that you did right by your progeny and taught them everything they need to learn to get by in the world whether it's street smarts or book smarts or both.


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## Vespertine (Jun 2, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> People have kids for all sorts of reasons apart from "wanted to raise children into adulthood and provide them with a good life". I've heard everything from a hook into marriage, a hold on the future co-parent's bank account, wanted to 'feel like a real man/woman', competing with a sibling who'd given parents grandkids, holding together a weakening marriage, 'wanted a little boy to play football with' or a 'little girl to dress up', wanted somebody to love me, and even *women who want a socially acceptable out from the workforce*.



Great post, I agree. My mom recently told me that it was common for women at her job to get pregnant when they wanted a break from work. It is highly likely the bold reason is why I am here! I wouldn't really consider childbirth a vacation though 

***

My friend from college has at least one kid now, maybe more. She always squee'd over baby shoes and things I can't get excited about. I figure some people are more meant for it than others, I don't think I would enjoy her lifestyle. I'm not against having kids quite like I once was but when I have the resources to afford a baby I plan instead to adopt a needy horse or three, cos I'm not ambivalent at all about equines!


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## fatgirlflyin (Jun 3, 2010)

olwen said:


> Wait...I'm not exactly sure if you are referring to knowledge or wisdom. But I'm gonna assume you are talking about knowledge, so just because someone isn't book smart doesn't mean their offspring will also not be booksmart, same way there's no guarantee someone who is booksmart will always produce geniuses. It's kind of a slap in the face to people who were the first in their families to go to college and graduate and their parents. It's just as easy for someone who is the most loving caring smart parent in the world to produce a serial killer or a nobel prize winner.
> 
> A parent/guardian can only do so much. You just have to hope that you did right by your progeny and taught them everything they need to learn to get by in the world whether it's street smarts or book smarts or both.



I'm so glad that someone addressed that post, I wanted to but didn't think I would be able to say anything without coming off like a bitch!


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## AtlantisAK (Jun 3, 2010)

Oh man...I've been feeling the 'pressure' lately to have kids too! I'm 24, been with and living with my first boyfriend for 5 years, unmarried of course. 

It seems like in the last year, all my old friends, schoolmates, family and people I used to work with are either getting married or pregnant. I'm kind of here, watching all this happen and hearing those words "When are you going to have one?" "When are you going to get married?" 

I cringe a bit, although I am curious about the experience of pregnancy and what it's like have a child to care for...I'm very nurturing. But it's a lot of work and I don't think that it's a responsibility I want to deal with. I'm not even sure if I want to have kids years down the road either.

I was discussing this issue with a co-worker (not friend, mind you) sometime in January and I stated "I don't think I want to have kids, they're cute and all, but there's a lot of stuff and fun that I want to do that I never had the chance to." 

She looked at me like I'd sprouted horns, tail and was about to light her world on fire! She said, rather loudly, "You're a selfish person!" and got up and walked away from me. I probably had the stupidest look on my face because of that...But how am I being selfish? Her little 'group' at work just completely stopped talking to me after that. That was most of the company, actually...

It wasn't like I stated I was eating children for breakfast with fava beans!

Some people are really different...But I have the thought in my head that if I'm 40, tired of doing what I've wanted to do..then there's a child out there that I can adopt, who needs a home. 

Maybe my ideas will change when I'm 28 or 35...But no kids for me right now, please!


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## BigCutieClaudia (Jun 3, 2010)

AtlantisAK said:


> She looked at me like I'd sprouted horns, tail and was about to light her world on fire! She said, rather loudly, "You're a selfish person!" and got up and walked away from me. I probably had the stupidest look on my face because of that...But how am I being selfish? Her little 'group' at work just completely stopped talking to me after that. That was most of the company, actually...
> 
> It wasn't like I stated I was eating children for breakfast with fava beans!
> 
> ...



You poor thing I wish i worked with you i'd be giving them all the finger. Look, I reject this archaic notion that women are to be nothing more than infant manufacturing plants...only "good" for so many years and then when we hit menopause we go from fertile to "barren" and are no longer of any use to be cast aside like the latest electronic product on the market that's gone obsolete. You are more than that, your life should be worth more than that.

Do not let anyone pressure you into having a child because it is a lifetime commitment. Being a mother does not stop when your child turns 18, or 21 or 25. So many take the proposition so lightly without knowing a damn thing of what it really involves. They selfishly have children with no real clue of what it really means to care for them. This goes far beyond financial considerations.

My mother god rest her soul committed her life to caring for and loving me. She worked like a dog day and night suffered through cancer,spinal injuries and so many other problems to stay around just because I was too young to make it on my own. She would have walked in front of a bullet for me and I will remain in awe of that kind of love and sacrifice for all the remaining days of my life. If anyone thinks this is an extraordinary feat you are right it is. But it is a small part of what it means to be a mother; if you can't handle that kind of heat then stay the hell out of the kitchen.


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## NoWayOut (Jul 30, 2011)

I don't like resurrecting old threads, but this is an issue that I've recently come to terms with and the only thread I've found here on it. I really don't want to have kids. I know this is mainly a women's issue (as it should be since women do all the work in this situation), but that lifestyle of actually raising another human and putting in all that work just doesn't seem to be for me. My concern is whether I could get married and still be able to remain childfree, because I think I might want to love another adult, but I've got no desire to be a parent.


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## Jess87 (Jul 30, 2011)

The most irritating thing I've run into is the stupid argument you get after someone does the whole "You'll be a great mother" spiel and I shut that down. As if it's something that has been given no prior thought and that person's argument to the contrary is really going to change my mind. I've known since I was a kid that I didn't want to have kids of my own. My family is well aware that I won't reproduce and have finally quit with suggesting my opinion will change as I age. If I had a dollar for every time someone said, "You'll change your mind when you get older," I could afford a tubal ligation by now. I absolutely adore kids, I like being around kids, but I don't want my own children. 

As for pregnancy being creepy, totally. Every time I see a pregnant woman all I can think of is that "Open your mind" scene in Total Recall. Needless to say, I do not need to feel the baby kick. Unless you're pregnant and reading this, then I didn't mean the previous at all. You're not remotely creepy and you look gorgeous right now.


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## idontspeakespn (Jul 30, 2011)

goofy girl said:


> Since I've gotten married I feel I'm getting pressure to start a family and not even from family members. (Steve's family and my family both know that we aren't planning on children...and they all agree it's the best thing for all involved lol) It seems there is a baby boom at work and I'm constantly hearing "Bridget, you're next!!" or "Bridget, when are you going to have a couple of kids?"
> 
> I would like to be able to say "Well, it's none of your business" but that would be rude. Ok..what I'd REALLY like to say is that I think pregnancy is repulsive - yeah it's beautiful and a miracle and all that crap, but someone LIVING in my gut for 9 months?!? CREEPY - that I don't think it's worth it financially, and that I just don't want the responsibility. But those are probably worse responses than the "none of your business" one.
> 
> ...




I get where you're coming from. I used to be you. I used to think kids are way too much responsibility, and I'm not capable of being self-sacrificing for 18 + years of my life for offspring I've produced. I would resent the child and that's not a fair environment for a human being to grow up in. 

People may view being childless by choice as selfish and inherently messing with the order of the world. It's not. What it is, is being human. Not all of us are made with the same capabilities, desires or goals. That's how we work.

And if you know you yourself well enough to be sure you have no desire to look after or care for offspring, isn't it better to spare people (you, your spouse, child) the burden of resentment and discontent in life by having crumbled from the pressure of arbitrary social norms? Though my views on not wanting children have changed, I know that whatever saves people from regret _is_ the better choice, no matter what people say.


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## Blackhawk2293 (Jul 30, 2011)

NoWayOut said:


> I don't like resurrecting old threads, but this is an issue that I've recently come to terms with and the only thread I've found here on it. I really don't want to have kids. I know this is mainly a women's issue (as it should be since women do all the work in this situation), but that lifestyle of actually raising another human and putting in all that work just doesn't seem to be for me. My concern is whether I could get married and still be able to remain childfree, because I think I might want to love another adult, but I've got no desire to be a parent.



Personally I don't see why not. I guess it depends on why you want to get married in the first place. Is it because you want a partner beside you or because you want to start a family etc etc etc that sort of thing. Just because you get married does not make you obliged to have kids... and there are couple out there that don't have kids, can't have kids etc.


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## Blackhawk2293 (Jul 30, 2011)

Jess87 said:


> The most irritating thing I've run into is the stupid argument you get after someone does the whole "You'll be a great mother" spiel and I shut that down. As if it's something that has been given no prior thought and that person's argument to the contrary is really going to change my mind. I've known since I was a kid that I didn't want to have kids of my own. My family is well aware that I won't reproduce and have finally quit with suggesting my opinion will change as I age. If I had a dollar for every time someone said, "You'll change your mind when you get older," I could afford a tubal ligation by now. I absolutely adore kids, I like being around kids, but I don't want my own children.
> 
> As for pregnancy being creepy, totally. Every time I see a pregnant woman all I can think of is that "Open your mind" scene in Total Recall. Needless to say, I do not need to feel the baby kick. Unless you're pregnant and reading this, then I didn't mean the previous at all. You're not remotely creepy and you look gorgeous right now.



I remember about 4 years ago when I worked in Child Protection, a mother who's child I put into state care due to neglect told me that I would make a good father.

Not exactly the best person to encourage me to become a parent! LOL!!

Speaking of tubal ligation, one of my last cases before I finally quit Child Protection was one where the hospital staff and Child Protection staff were actually meeting about how we would approach this mother about having a tubal ligation because she already had 3 or 4 kids in state care and her new born baby had also just gone into care and they were worried that she would hook up with someone and have another child before she could work out her particular issues and then that child would also end up in state care. 

Of course, what I think of tubal ligation as a Child Protection strategy is another can of worms that I'd rather not open in this thread.


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## NoWayOut (Jul 30, 2011)

Jess87 said:


> If I had a dollar for every time someone said, "You'll change your mind when you get older," I could afford a tubal ligation by now. I absolutely adore kids, I like being around kids, but I don't want my own children.



I hear you on this, although I'm sure I haven't heard it nearly as often as you have. I have seen people turn pretty nasty over this. One guy in my line of work (I'm a sportswriter) said I'd eventually want kids and "if you're saying you're never going to change your mind, you're just an ***hole who always believes he's right".

Seriously? I always thought this was, you know, my choice.


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## lypeaches (Jul 30, 2011)

FWIW, I have known since I was a kid and didn't want children, I found a man to marry who felt the exact same way. It is possible. 

As for the pressure from others, I've always said..."look, to this point, I have no desire to have children. I can't imagine that changing, but I'm open to the possibility that it might". I kept waiting for the urge to hit....and I'm now 47, still with no child urges. I figure if it hits later, I'll adopt or mentor a kid, something of that nature.


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## PhillyAnj (Jul 30, 2011)

I think that the decision to not have children is anything but selfish. Parenting is not for everyone. My husband and I were foster parents and adopted 3 beautiful children from foster care. What is selfish was THEIR parents, who put their own wants, needs and desires before that of their children, resulting in them becoming my children.


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## GlassDaemon (Jul 31, 2011)

I think it's a comprehension problem, no, no one is stupid, it's like believing in god/great force or believing in nothing. I sincerely cannot believe how someone could believe that nothing created us, that there was a bang and everything was, it doesn't sit in my head, my brain cells laugh at the concept and push it out the ear. 

Same idea for having kids or not having kids, maybe not to such an extreme though. People say kids are the future, in a sense they are right, but unfortunately for the future I'm alive today and now. Kids are a blessing, think of your own parents, dare you say, you love someone more than them?(don't answer that, some of us have our own dark secrets that we don't need to depress up this topic with just think on that one for a moment)

An individual can choose to sacrifice some of their years that could have been spent traveling and seeing the world, clubbing and being young, or building a career to raise a child instead. 

Sounds pretty bad doesn't it? Like you're screwing yourself, but then, what do you suppose happens when you're 70? Those same kids will be the ones inviting you to Christmas, who will help support you as you once did them, if need be. Will give you a place in their homes if you're afraid to live alone. 

It's a personal decision, but it's also something that the opposing side doesn't often understand. I spend days upon days with my boyfriend and as much as I love his daughter she can aggravate the hell out of me. I want alone time with my hunny to molest his man parts, instead I'm playing with barbie dolls. I can see kids interrupting me and my bf quite a bit, losing out on that cruise I so badly want to go on, or having to censor my vacations to make them child proof/appropriate. Do I think it's worth it though? When I'm fooling around with the boyfriend and his daughter walks in and looks at me with those big blue eyes and asks me to play with her, will I turn her away? That's my decision to make.

Now is it selfish to not want kids? It's as selfish as breaking up with someone for not loving them (anymore). Some people think it's the worst crime in the world to hurt another human, but what if you did it to prevent more hurt in the future? Or because something wasn't right!

It's popular to have kids, most people (not trying to be mean) want kids, as a minority of people who do not want them, you'll be pressured to have kids, because people find it awkward and strange that you don't want them. Or perhaps they're just confused, remember, they don't understand, they can't see through your eyes why you could possibly not want them. (This was a very generalized comment and I hope everyone takes it with a grain of salt)


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## penguin (Jul 31, 2011)

Whether you do or don't want kids, I think it's something that needs to come up fairly early in the relationship. You need to let the other person know your stance so that if they're not on the same page things can end before they get too serious. 

A friend of mine is very definitely childfree, as is her husband. They agreed that if for some reason either of them changed their minds and wanted kids, it would be a deal breaker. I have quite a few other friends who have no plans on ever having children, and I would much rather see someone say upfront that children aren't part of their plans than to say "oh, maybe one day, we'll see", when they mean "no, not ever."


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## NoWayOut (Aug 1, 2011)

GlassDaemon said:


> Sounds pretty bad doesn't it? Like you're screwing yourself, but then, what do you suppose happens when you're 70? Those same kids will be the ones inviting you to Christmas, who will help support you as you once did them, if need be. Will give you a place in their homes if you're afraid to live alone.



Actually, that's another reason I'm deciding against kids. There's hardly any guarantee they would do any of those things. Some say that their kids will take care of them, but will they? Children become independent people who can make their own choices. If they didn't have a great experience growing up, they might not want to support you or have you living with them. There are plenty of reasons to have kids, but as an insurance policy to take care of you one day is not one of them.


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## CarlaSixx (Aug 1, 2011)

My ex was against having kids, and it was definitely a deal breaker. I don't have anything against people who decide against having kids. In fact, I understand it for the most part. But I'm not really there.

To be honest, I've never dreamt of having kids, but I never thought I wouldn't have kids, either. As I get older and see my friends having kids, the idea of pregnancy and raising children just starts to scare me more and more. I think it's the fear of the pain of pregnancy, the idea that it will feel like an alien growing under my skin, and the fact that I've got a bratty dog... which was a test to see if I could be a mother. So, I think I'd make a horrible mother. So I'm starting to lean towards being childless by choice.

Still... I kind of entertain the idea of having a child, and would like to partner with someone who at least sees it as a possibility, but would be cool if it didn't happen, too.

I get the ideas behind being childless by choice, though  And I don't think any of you are horrible for deciding that. In fact, I think it's better to know than to bring a child to life without wanting one in the first place, which is all too common these days.

Also, I think there's no problem with getting married even though you don't want kids. As long as you're getting married for love and long term commitment, that's all that really matters.


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## NoWayOut (Aug 1, 2011)

CarlaSixx said:


> My ex was against having kids, and it was definitely a deal breaker. I don't have anything against people who decide against having kids. In fact, I understand it for the most part. But I'm not really there.
> 
> To be honest, I've never dreamt of having kids, but I never thought I wouldn't have kids, either. As I get older and see my friends having kids, the idea of pregnancy and raising children just starts to scare me more and more. I think it's the fear of the pain of pregnancy, the idea that it will feel like an alien growing under my skin, and the fact that I've got a bratty dog... which was a test to see if I could be a mother. So, I think I'd make a horrible mother. So I'm starting to lean towards being childless by choice.
> 
> ...



If you don't want a kid because of pregnancy, you could always adopt. Just suggesting that because you seem to want a kid, but don't want to deal with pregnancy, and there's nothing wrong with that.


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## CarlaSixx (Aug 1, 2011)

NoWayOut said:


> If you don't want a kid because of pregnancy, you could always adopt. Just suggesting that because you seem to want a kid, but don't want to deal with pregnancy, and there's nothing wrong with that.



Exactly what I had in mind if I ever do decide to really have a kid. Besides... there's a lot of kids out there in need of a family, so adopting would give them a real family. But I'm not sure about even raising kids at this point.


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## idontspeakespn (Aug 1, 2011)

NoWayOut said:


> Actually, that's another reason I'm deciding against kids. There's hardly any guarantee they would do any of those things. Some say that their kids will take care of them, but will they? Children become independent people who can make their own choices. If they didn't have a great experience growing up, they might not want to support you or have you living with them. There are plenty of reasons to have kids, but as an insurance policy to take care of you one day is not one of them.




I have no idea why this post disturbed me...I know you meant that you wouldn't have kids just as an insurance policy but that there's something here I think should be said: 

The point of kids is not to have a guaranteed invite for holiday dinners or a place to live when you become too infirm to be on your own.Though I would most certainly do this for my mother if it became necessary, I don't think that's what she thought of when trying for 7 years to conceive me. And that shouldn't be anyone else's reason to have or not to have children.

Producing offspring is one of the most primal, natural occurrences in human nature. There is no *point*, per se, cognitively or emotionally. You have children because you want them and that's it. It is something that I don't think can be explained as simply as saying "I want this new purse" You want the purse because it's pretty or it holds more than the one you've got now. Easy to explain. The desire to have children isn't. 

It is ancient, more ancient than language itself which is perhaps why it is difficult to put words to it. JMO.


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## tigerlily (Aug 1, 2011)

Blackhawk2293 said:


> People love cops?
> 
> I thought cops was the most hated profession in the world... along with us Child Protection Service Workers of course. I constantly get abuse hurled at me about being a "baby stealer", "kidnapper" and so on.



Not to derail, but to someone like me who has suffered about 7 years of child abuse, you're a gatdamn hero! 

Had to be said, mate. :bow:


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## GlassDaemon (Aug 1, 2011)

NoWayOut said:


> Actually, that's another reason I'm deciding against kids. There's hardly any guarantee they would do any of those things. Some say that their kids will take care of them, but will they? Children become independent people who can make their own choices. If they didn't have a great experience growing up, they might not want to support you or have you living with them. There are plenty of reasons to have kids, but as an insurance policy to take care of you one day is not one of them.



I think you took that the wrong way, it's not an insurance policy when they invite you to family gatherings, when they have kids and they ask you to their birthday parties. It's not insurance when you want to live with them cause you're afraid to live alone or you just don't like being alone, there's no reason why you're not capable of pulling your weight as an older person. Not to say that it may not come to a point where you need financial help and they might help you out, I think you got stuck on that small detail but there's a lot more to it than that. It just sucks to be completely alone with no family or friends anymore. That's what happens to a lot of older people, they end up living alone, their spouses die and they're completely alone then, likely they don't go out of their homes much so they don't have a lot of friends if any.

What's more, if you're a good parent, likely your kids will want to take care of you, but that's my opinion. I'd never forsake my mother and honestly I don't know anyone that would.


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## tigerlily (Aug 1, 2011)

GlassDaemon said:


> I think you took that the wrong way, it's not an insurance policy when they invite you to family gatherings, when they have kids and they ask you to their birthday parties. It's not insurance when you want to live with them cause you're afraid to live alone or you just don't like being alone, there's no reason why you're not capable of pulling your weight as an older person. Not to say that it may not come to a point where you need financial help and they might help you out, I think you got stuck on that small detail but there's a lot more to it than that. It just sucks to be completely alone with no family or friends anymore. That's what happens to a lot of older people, they end up living alone, their spouses die and they're completely alone then, likely they don't go out of their homes much so they don't have a lot of friends if any.
> 
> What's more, if you're a good parent, likely your kids will want to take care of you, but that's my opinion. I'd never forsake my mother and honestly I don't know anyone that would.



That sounds like insurance to me. It may not be monetary, but it doesn't have to be money to be expensive. There are other types of currency especially in relationships, and I'd actually say that emotional cost is sometimes more intense. 

I actually read your comment the same way, and I think what NWO says still stands. Having children for the possibility of a little emotional OR financial support, isn't a fantastic reason. Children are individuals, and you can give them the world and they could still grow up and not really want to be around you or want you around. It's not a guarantee.


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## Lamia (Aug 1, 2011)

I am here on this earth because my father told my mother and I quote "we need to have another kid to take care of us when we get old". 

My sister is 8 years older than me and my brother is 7 years older. I'm not sure why they weren't deemed worthy or responsible enough for elder care. 

I don't know if it was my destiny or if I had heard the story enough that I just felt like it was my duty, but I've always had an affinty for elderly people. I took care of two elderly people while I wa sin college. I did home care for them for three years. 

I moved home from Ohio to this stinking armpit so that I can be here to take care of my parents when they need me. 

So people do have kids in order to be there for them when they are old. It's not enough motivation for me to have kids, but I don't fault other people for having this logic.


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## GlassDaemon (Aug 1, 2011)

tigerlily said:


> That sounds like insurance to me. It may not be monetary, but it doesn't have to be money to be expensive. There are other types of currency especially in relationships, and I'd actually say that emotional cost is sometimes more intense.
> 
> I actually read your comment the same way, and I think what NWO says still stands. Having children for the possibility of a little emotional OR financial support, isn't a fantastic reason. Children are individuals, and you can give them the world and they could still grow up and not really want to be around you or want you around. It's not a guarantee.



I would never consider emotional support insurance, cause then you have to start questioning why you're in a relationship at all, since you don't need emotional connections at all apparently. If it is not love that you crave, than what exactly is your purpose for having any human contact? 

I like human contact I like to have other people around me, friends and family alike, each of them fulfill a different kind of love for me. Love that I may technically be able to live without, but if I have the power I choose to live with it. 

It's not insurance it's love, I merely offered a more tangible example of what I was trying to portray. I'm not going to repeat my entire first post, but be reminded that I never said if I was going to have kids or not, I merely try to view things from a bird's view.


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## PhiloGirl (Aug 1, 2011)

GlassDaemon said:


> *snipped* ...It's not insurance it's love...



This, exactly. I come from a big, supportive family, and although I don't think I want to raise children, I sometimes feel that if I don't, I'll miss out on what my grandmother / parents / aunts and uncles have right now. I don't see it as "Oh crap, I'll have nowhere to go for Christmas when I'm 70." I wonder if I will have been a part of this fantastic family, until my older relatives pass on, my cousins grow their own families past the point of everyone being able to get together regularly, etc... And then it will just be me, my career, friends, and whatnot. Of course that could be a fantastic life, but I might regret not being a part of passing down traditions and values, not supporting and raising a loving family. The thought that the cycle of love and support, of personality traits, history, and on and on... might "end" with me is disconcerting.


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## Ruffie (Aug 2, 2011)

Philo I can see what your saying but my experience has been that family is a collection of family and friends that you gather along life's way. My husband and I are the youngest of all our family and are only children. It has been our experience for whatever reason, that our families do not have much to do with us. We had our own children because we wanted to create our own family and have two wonderful boys and are a tight knit little family. However through my work at a youth centre for at risk kids I have gathered a larger extended family. Many of the kids call me Kohkum (grandma in cree) and I am close to many of the kids I have worked with. I have five youth who had mothers that couldn't always be there for them and asked me( in the native tradition you can pick your family and do a ceremony to adopt them into your family) to be their mother. I have 6 grandchildren through them and they all bring me so much joy. I have good friends whom I consider sisters and brothers because I am an only child they give me the sibling experience. We are invited to their family gatherings and we include them in ours. We run over to each others houses in pyjamas for coffee, or to help each other out in a crisis just like "real" relatives. Your influence and traits can be passed along to people you are close to but not necessarily those whom you share blood with. And as others said and you agree with, Love is what makes a family.


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## lizzie_lotr (Aug 2, 2011)

Whenever people ask me why I don't have kids, I simply reply with "I enjoy being able to sleep". They usually seem satisfied with that answer


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## HottiMegan (Aug 2, 2011)

I honestly wouldn't wish parenthood on anyone who didn't truly want it. It's a hard job with little reward. You have to give yourself completely up. I used to pamper myself regularly. i'm now lucky to get a haircut twice a year. Kids are an energy and money siphon. I get frustrated and very sad at the actions my kids take sometimes. I haven't been out to more than 1 movie in a year thanks to having kids. 

On the other hand..
I wouldn't give them up for the world. I love them to pieces and always wanted to have kids. I would love to have/adopt another one but it's not fiscally responsible. They make me laugh daily as they learn about the world. It's fun sharing things that i loved as a kid with the. Sort of like reliving my childhood sort of. Hugs from my boys can be my salvation when i'm drowning in sorrow. I always wanted to be a parent even as a little girl. 
I am not counting on them taking care of me in my aged years. I only hope that they grow up and are happy when they are adults. 

I never understood why people judge and get all opinionated when it comes to another persons personal choice.


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## Bananaspills (Aug 3, 2011)

I love having kids and I want a houseful, BUT although I don't _understand _ the decision not to have children, I certainly respect it. I wouldn't judge anyone for not having children any more that I would like anyone else to judge me for wanting many rugrats  I certainly don't think everyone should have children, having a child is a major part of your life and always remains that, it shouldn't be undertaken "just because".


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## Blackhawk2293 (Aug 3, 2011)

tigerlily said:


> Not to derail, but to someone like me who has suffered about 7 years of child abuse, you're a gatdamn hero!
> 
> Had to be said, mate. :bow:



I'm sorry you had to go through that experience but thanks for the compliment.


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## Blackhawk2293 (Aug 3, 2011)

Bananaspills said:


> I love having kids and I want a houseful, BUT although I don't _understand _ the decision not to have children, I certainly respect it. I wouldn't judge anyone for not having children any more that I would like anyone else to judge me for wanting many rugrats  I certainly don't think everyone should have children, having a child is a major part of your life and always remains that, it shouldn't be undertaken "just because".



It's nice to know that there are people in the world that can be proud of their choice and not judge other people who don't make the same choice. You are rare indeed!


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## Skye23 (Aug 4, 2011)

Hubby and I have been married for 15 years, I think its safe to say that if we'd wanted kids we'd have had them by now. I wanted none, he thought maybe some and I compromised at 1 but likely adopted if he really wanted it. In the end he decided none was ok with him too. We both had issues in childhood and financially things haven't been great, plus my health isn't great although that has nothing to do with the weight. More the other way around, its pretty hard to not gain weight when your physical activity is limited due to pain. 

But now we've got oodles of friends and family members who have children - so when people ask we tell them that we've got a ton of nieces and nephews and we've decided we prefer the "catch and release" version of children. We snag a kid, spoil it, enjoy it, and send it home when we're done. I have done enough diaper duty, sleepless nights, and tantrums so loud the entire shopping mall turned en masse to see what the hell was going on to know how to handle them. I can do it, I just choose not to.


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## PhiloGirl (Aug 5, 2011)

Ruffie said:


> *snipped* Your influence and traits can be passed along to people you are close to but not necessarily those whom you share blood with.



Wisely said.  Considering your points, I suppose in my case that maybe it's not so much concern of what I won't have, as a wisfulness that it may not involve my blood relatives as much in the next stages of life. I love our traditions, and it's possible that if I choose a different direction from everyone else, that I will be left out as our lives evolve. But of course, we all have to pursue what we value most, and there are ways to keep a family together that don't involve me having a bunch of kids _just_ to fit in with my big Italian family.


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## Tracyarts (Aug 14, 2011)

Here's a neat experience I had a few days ago that made me smile.

Husband and I were having supper at a restaurant, and it was one of those little "hole in the wall" kinds of places where the tables are so close together that you can't help but overhear bits of conversations now and then. 

So, a woman with an older teenage girl, and a girl who looked to be late elementary school age were sitting in the booth next to ours, just behind me, and I overheard the woman telling the younger girl "someday when you have kids, or even if you don't ever have any, because you know it's okay if you grow up and decide that you don't want kids, there's nothing wrong with that". I just thought what a really neat and refreshing thing to hear from a parent (or maybe an aunt even). To let a kid know that having children is an option and it's okay whichever choice you make. 

Tracy


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## seavixen (Aug 20, 2011)

For some reason, people love to assume that I have at least one kid. Honestly, I cannot figure out why. Do fat ladies just seem motherly? Is it because I'm always in good spirits, and people assume that equals some kind of affinity for motherhood?

I've never really been comfortable around kids, and I find that the older I get, the more true that is. I couldn't relate to them when I was one, and I haven't gotten any better at it.

I think far too many people have kids because they're "supposed to" or it's the "natural order of things" or whatever. I didn't get married to have kids, I got married to have a husband. I'm not less of a woman for not being a mom, even though people definitely seem to look at it that way.

Parenthood is NOT for everyone, and I think that people should consider it carefully before making a decision either way. For me - I don't have the patience, energy, altruism, or deep love of children to make a good mother. I'd be worried ALL the time for one reason or another. Not for me.

More power to you if you can devote your life to having kids, though. Somebody needs to do it!  Truly great parents really make me happy, which is one of many reasons I don't have kids - because I don't believe I'd be one.


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## SSBBW Katerina (Aug 23, 2011)

goofy girl said:


> Since I've gotten married I feel I'm getting pressure to start a family and not even from family members. (Steve's family and my family both know that we aren't planning on children...and they all agree it's the best thing for all involved lol) It seems there is a baby boom at work and I'm constantly hearing "Bridget, you're next!!" or "Bridget, when are you going to have a couple of kids?"
> 
> I would like to be able to say "Well, it's none of your business" but that would be rude. Ok..what I'd REALLY like to say is that I think pregnancy is repulsive - yeah it's beautiful and a miracle and all that crap, but someone LIVING in my gut for 9 months?!? CREEPY - that I don't think it's worth it financially, and that I just don't want the responsibility. But those are probably worse responses than the "none of your business" one.
> 
> ...



No, hon, ur not on ur own. I'm childfree by choice.

Ciao.


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## Hehe (Aug 23, 2011)

The way I see it, I haven't even satisfied myself and my life, so why would I want to give up on myself and start living my life for someone else. Yeah I am selfish. But I also just don't like children. I worked for 6 years in a few grocery stores, and hearing children scream and cry all day and watching them disobey their parents was enough for me to decide never to procreate.

People always say, "When are you and your girlfriend going to get married and have kids?" and I am always completely open and it usually shocks people. (Hehe shock factor is how I live though, I just love to see the look on people's faces when I say absurd things.)

I mean don't get me wrong, I believe people were put on this world for two things: to slay one another (this is just an observation judging by mankind's lust for bloodshed) and also to reproduce to keep the species going just like any other animal, we just got our priorities twisted up somewhere along the way. So I'm all for other people having children. It just isn't for me.


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## spiritangel (Aug 24, 2011)

I think either option is ok but I was talking to Claudia Christian About this when I did her reading and she said something that really struck a cord with me 

Cause I am at that age where it may or may not happen I am ok with either option here now I have always been a make the most of whatever is thrown in my path 

the thing she said was that not having children has allowed her stronger and deeper relationships with her friends than she would have been able to have had she had children 

I think its sad that society sees a lack of children as either poor you or a bad choice after all not everyone who has children is equiped well for it


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## NoWayOut (Aug 24, 2011)

I do find it kind of interesting how our generation is really the first one to realize that it is actually a choice whether or not to have kids. It used to just be assumed.

Really, I don't know why it took me this long to realize I don't want kids. I was always trying to avoid the "get married" space in Life (which of course, the game won't allow).


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## Micara (Dec 10, 2011)

I went to a children's museum today and after about 10 minutes realized that not only do I never want anymore children, but that it's amazing that I even had one given my patience with other people's kids. Of course, my daughter doesn't run around like a hooligan and never really did.

I think my problem with kids is the way that parents overindulge them nowadays and let them do whatever the heck they want with no manners or reprimands. It sickens me. How are these children going to grow up to be functional adults when they have no consequences and have everything handed to them?

My daughter is 14 now and was not planned, but I am still relatively young and I get the "Aren't you going to have another?" question pretty often. I just have no desire. One of the hardest things for me was telling my boyfriend, who is much younger than me, that I really do not want any more children. I'm not sure how that's going to affect things down the road, but it's not something I can see myself compromising on.

And for GoofyGirl about the pregnancy is gross feeling? I totally get that- I felt the same way about breastfeeding. I could never do it. I just couldn't have a baby hanging off my boobs like that. I had to put up with all the know-it-all mothers insisting that "it's so much better for the baby!" Well, my daughter is beautiful, healthy, makes straight-A's, and involved with 4 sports, and scholastic bowl, AND the chess club, and she was brought up on straight formula, whichever kind I could afford with a coupon. So stuff it.


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