# On Being a Long Term "Other Woman"



## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

I was having girls night out with another heterosexual, female, Dimmer. She was speaking about various interactions with men and brought up the notion that some people will lie about circumstances or withold important facts in order to draw you into a relationship.

I mentioned that I was in love with a married man who had initially lied about his relationship status. I told her the story and she said something along the lines of "Well I can understand because I went through something similar." We compared situations and discovered that we had both fallen in love with men who were in long term relationships with other women. In each case, these men went on to marry the other woman but over a very long period of time (more than five years in each of our cases) these men kept up contact with us. Additionally, in both cases while our relationships had elements of sexual intimacy, they were *not* in any way what could be termed affairs or either of being in a mistress/concubine situation.

The prime similarities we discussed, and were jointly interested on getting insite on were these:

1. Initial meetings happened when the males were in long term relationships and this fact was lied about.

2. Successful attempts by each man to create emotional ties, essentially what one would do to develop a relationship such as talking about personal matters, spending time together, communicating about private feelings, etc.

3. Strong mutual sexual attraction but in these cases, the relationships were not primarily sexual. IOW, these were not cases where we were seen just for sex or had the males engage in sex with us and then go home to the wife.

4. In each case, we met these men while they were unmarried but in LTRs. During the years that we knew these men, they married the women after very long courtships over man years. In each case these men had balked at marrying their partners, and yet had done so. In each case they returned to us, absent the promise of sex, and professed deep regret over their marriages.

We sort of hashed out back and forth how we felt. Neither of us feel guilty, as we were lied to. Both of us were honest about still being in love with these men--it's hard to just cut somebody off but impossible to cut off your feelings. Both of us had strong blows to our self esteem at feeling, for lack of a better word, targetted for this long term other woman status.

I specificed both our genders and sexual orientations, as we did not want this thread to become male bashing, or to exclude the idea that a male or female might behave this way in a long term homosexual partnership. We allow that it is _possible_ this behaviour is more common in heterosexual males, but did not want to exclude a possible broader look at all relationships. 

Neither of us is looking for advice as to how we should have handled this; what we are interested in are stories or observations from other posters along these lines:

1. Why would somebody lie to a person clearly looking for a relationship when one is not available?

2. Why would somebody go on for years returning to another, "alternate" partner despite the presence of a LTR?

3. Do people enter into marriages (or civil unions) that they truly don't want? Do people feel guilted into staying or committing? Do people weigh two situations in the balance (this one or that one?) and choose the long term 'official' partner because it's too hard to break up?

We are also interested in hearing from anyone who has been the protagonist in a situation such as this. i.e. somebody who may have been married or cohabitting or engaged and yet continued to pursue another person on an emotional level. We are not looking to judge anyone or their behaviour, nor to have our own judged, but rather for an open and honest discussion of cheating, dishonesty, and affairs and why these things take place. This thread was our joint attempt to gain a greater understanding of human behaviour in relationships and why certain behaviours come about.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 14, 2009)

been there done that, burned the Tshirt.

I think some men (and women) do that for the attention.. you fulfill something for them, and they dont want to let it go...or they are in it for the thrill of the hunt, then get addicted to the feelings the persuit gives them...or they want their cake and eat it too....the question should be, why do we put up with it and still talk to them when we are their second choice...


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

You're right. 

We chose to post this more to figure out the mindset of the people who do this. Obviously we need to look at our own behaviour, but for now we're more interested in finding out why somebody does this sort of thing.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm not sure this isn't about misunderstandings about friendship and how men vs women view that. Just a thought. *shrug*


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I'm not sure this isn't about misunderstandings about friendship and how men vs women view that. Just a thought. *shrug*



You mean the men thought they were pursuing friendships?

It's a good observation, but in both cases we were discussing, the men professed love for us, desire to see us, and sexual attraction. I think it's obviously possible that misunderstandings can occur, but I don't think it was the case here.

I'm actually glad you posted Sandie. You've talked about polyamory as a lifestyle and it did occur to me while typing this up that there might be some thoughts or observations about monogamy in humans. I know there are some who disagree with it or find it not natural, and/or don't believe it is possible for one person to fulfill another in every necessary way.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 14, 2009)

Yep, been there and the ashes from my t shirt are still smouldering. As far as misunderstandings go it wasn't the case in my story. I was pretty clear and direct about what I wanted. Basically I was a victim of the sin of omission. He didn't exactly lie, he told me he was single which was true. He just chose not to disclose the fact that he was in a relationship with a woman that was five years strong, which means he lied.  Lots of hairsplitting in order to romance me into the kind of relationship with him that he knew dang well I didn't want. I was deliberately mislead. Hindsight is 20/20 but I honestly had no clue what was going on. It seems extremely manipulative to me. I suspect that people who do this are addicted to romance, dating, butterflies, all that stuff that comes with the beginnings of a new relationship. Things become predictable and comfortable at home with their partner and the craving for new love is too powerful to resist.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 14, 2009)

I got a lot of people upset with my belief that no one is monogamous, and my mind still is not changed on that, however, I'm not sure monogamy comes into play in this kind of situation.

I have had several friendships with men that started out as mutual attraction. IMO - if a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman are going to be friends chances are pretty good that either at the beginning or at some point in the friendship someone or both will develop feelings for someone, right? It's how we are designed. And the closer you get as friends the more likely this will happen.

My feeling on what you posted about is that, it is quite possible that the men in these situations may very well be attracted to you and your friend, but they know very well they are in committed relationships with other women, but somewhere along the way signals got crossed. Some men are flirts, and will flirt with women incessantly and then be surprised when a woman wants more than friendship because he was interested right? He gave her all the green light signals, right? No, not in his mind - he was playing, flirting just having fun. How did this happen? Men and women think very differently about flirting, IMO. 

Relationships are hard when they are good. But my advice is, unless you have heard him say he wants more from you than a friend - assume he doesn't. Be his friend, give him a shoulder when you can, be there when he needs a friend, but that's all. If you attracted to him and it's too hard - end it because, if you become more to him, like a friend with benefits and you are not 100% OK with it never being more than that, you will get your heart broken. 

I don't know if any of this makes sense. But there you go.


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## Tad (Oct 14, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I suspect that people who do this are addicted to romance, dating, butterflies, all that stuff that comes with the beginnings of a new relationship. Things become predictable and comfortable at home with their partner and the craving for new love is too powerful to resist.



I admit that about a year after being married I was really tempted to do something like this, for I think all of the reasons that you said. The desire to have that whole discovery and new love thing was really strong for a while. I didn't get involved with anyone, but I did do some flirting which certainly implied I was available....which felt horrible afterward. 

I unequivocally think that is wrong to lead another person on in that way. But I sure understand the desire for it.


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## rollhandler (Oct 14, 2009)

I have seen this behaviour performed by both men and women for a variety of reasons not mentioned already. Granted some have cakeandeatittoo syndrome, some are poly amorous and closet themselves not admitting their beliefs to anyone since it isn't socially acceptable. There are a variety of reasons for this behaviour. Some are just faults in personality or emotional states that externalize for a variety of reasons. 

So far in life I have observed the following:

In some cases the person in question is using the justification of weighing options or seeing if there is one better than the one they have currently before committing, and the lie (be it direct or by omission) is used to circumvent the social stigma of dating in multiples while trying to make the choice.

Most commonly though I have seen people so unused to attention from the opposite gender that they latch on and fall for everyone that shows sincere interest, then cant figure out how to get out of it gracefully until there is no choice but to hurt someone. In this instance I wonder if they are merely waiting for one of the partners to break up with them, thus making it so they don't have to:
a) hurt someone by their choice.
b) look bad by admitting to what they have done.
c) make the choice at all if both partners are good enough to keep.

One other type I have seen is the one with abandonment issues that will latch on to more than one partner being afraid that eventually the one they have already will leave them eventually. They are so afraid of being alone that this fear causes them to keep a backup relationship and lie to maintain it for years before they can relax enough to see that the one they had first isn't just another letdown and commit to them.

Rollhandler


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## rollhandler (Oct 14, 2009)

Glitch, double post. Sorry.
Rollhandler


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

> I suspect that people who do this are addicted to romance, dating, butterflies, all that stuff that comes with the beginnings of a new relationship. Things become predictable and comfortable at home with their partner and the craving for new love is too powerful to resist.



This makes sense, but here's my problem with it. In my case the person carried things on for many years. Had it been a simple addiction to the "new", you'd think that would wear off after more than five years. Not only is it no longer 'new' but situation now has the added baggage of "you lied to me" and a whole lot of drama. The other woman (in this case me) is no longer thinking about romance and dating because she knows the man is unavailable for those things.

There are for sure serial cheaters who are always seeking out the thrill of the new, but I'm trying to figure out why somebody would want to hold onto the same "new" one for the long haul.


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 14, 2009)

Like most unpleasant or immoral behavior the short answer to why this kind of thing happens is _the male ego_. We're more acculturated to overtly seek praise, attention and affection. When the woman in the primary relationship has seen his basic frog nature, feet of clay, what have you the "new" woman, at least momentarily and as far as he knows, sees a a prince. Most men want someone who will see and acknowledge the best in them even if they realize that isn't sustainable, even if it jeopardizes a relationship with someone who loves and accepts them as they are. 

I've been accused of misandry and pandering here but I'm not saying all or even most men are pigs. All we really are is need fulfillment machines. Some men desperately need to have their value and desirability constantly reaffirmed. Sometimes, even if the wife is providing all the praise and support she can, a guy can't trust her because he knows she's seen him at his worst. Some men feel they have to have someone they haven't disappointed or at at least haven't managed to fail completely yet.

If a guy can't let himself be loved and accepted just as himself, warts and all, he'll seek approval wherever he can; work, sports, hobbies, somewhere he can feel he's "winning". I'm neither excusing nor condemning the behavior; just trying to trace the pattern with the facts at hand.

There may be something to Rollhandler's assertion re fear of abandonment but I suspect it's more a fear of being seen as less than we want to be? And I'm not suggesting that men are the only sex that needs to feel appreciated. I think we're just _generally_ less considerate of others feelings. Or maybe sometimes we just think with our dicks? JMO.


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## mossystate (Oct 14, 2009)

Perhaps the cheater does that...holds on for the long haul...because ' you ' seem a sure thing. You learn they are already in a relationship, and you stick around. They know that they can get away with pretty much anything. First the woman/man they are with ( they are not told )...and now with the person they can call when they want a little variety. Has to be a powerful/secure feeling for that type. No matter the reasons why, it really boils down to being selfish. Whatever has them searching....they prefer to not deal with it. They prefer to hurt people. Why is it so many people think they are so good at lying/justifying. Silly humans.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Oct 14, 2009)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Or maybe sometimes we just think with our dicks? JMO.



Ah ha! I think you're on to something!


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 14, 2009)

How on earth is this cheating?? Having a woman friend isn't cheating. I'm confused.:huh:


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

I don't think anyone said having a platonic friend is cheating.

I'm referring only to the situations that this other Dimmer and I were in, but in both cases the men made it clear they knew we were interested in romantic relationships (otherwise why say you are single? if you are pursuing friendship you'd just be honest) and made statements and took actions that mimicced pursuit of a non-platonic relationship. By this I mean professing love, talking about personal issues, saying the marriage/main romance was unhappy and unsatisfying.


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## Sugar (Oct 14, 2009)

I don't think there is some long meaningful answer here...

People can be indecisive and selfish at the same time and it hurts everyone involved.

People can love two people at once and not have the guts to do what's right.


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2009)

Sandie, I'm guessing it's because there is more than one way of being unfaithful. One way is by sharing intimacy -- even non-sexual -- with someone other than, or instead of, one's partner. That bond of trust and intimacy is broken when one spends time not only discussing matters that the person wouldn't speak of with their spouse, but also making the subject of conversation about the spouse her- or him-self. That's not even to mention whatever level of flirting went on...


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 14, 2009)

OK - but my idea of what is cheating is very different from most peoples. One person can never be everything to me. JMO. 





Tina said:


> Sandie, I'm guessing it's because there is more than one way of being unfaithful. One way is by sharing intimacy -- even non-sexual -- with someone other than, or instead of, one's partner. That bond of trust and intimacy is broken when one spends time not only discussing matters that the person wouldn't speak of with their spouse, but also making the subject of conversation about the spouse her- or him-self. That's not even to mention whatever level of flirting went on...


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

That's what I meant about being curious about a polyamory perspective.

I was thinking it might be possible that somebody has certain necessary qualities in a life partner but that there are other needs, be they emotional or sexual or social that can't necessarily be met by a life partner, nor do some people feel it's necessary.

This can mean something as simple as an activity, i.e. if I really love rock climbing or going to the opera or playing golf or watching college basketball, I may want an activity partner for those things but it's not necessary for a life partner to be that person.

On a broader level, perhaps a life partner is chosen for religious compatibility, similar attitudes about co-parenting, or financial/social status. Those things may be necessary in choosing a life partner, but a person may have other needs that are secondary that the life partner can't or won't meet. 

Like is it really *wrong* if you have a person with a low income who wants to be a parent. S/he may choose a life partner with whom to raise children, and that person might be chosen for having a high income and similar attitudes toward child rearing. That same person may be bisexual and the life partner can't provide sexual fulfillment. Is it necessarily cheating to go outside the partnership for sexual fulfillment, or is it a tradeoff you have to make?


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## mossystate (Oct 14, 2009)

Isn't this kind of...ummm...................simple?

If you are keeping ' other ' people a secret ...then you are not respecting those who believe, because you have told them as much, that they are your one and only. If all involved have an understanding.......no problem.

The OP's original scenarios were all about people lying..and others who ultimately were OK with it.....until they were not OK with it.


There is no healthy way to have more than one person in ' your ' life, if there are dark closets..........people like that know what they are doing is wrong. If everybody is not on board, then it is really just sleazy and selfish...and it is cheating.

I think there is a polyamory thread on the weight board.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Oct 14, 2009)

mossystate said:


> Isn't this kind of...ummm...................simple?
> 
> If you are keeping ' other ' people a secret ...then you are not respecting those who believe, because you have told them as much, that they are your one and only.



I agree with Mossy. It sounds to me as if this isn't really about love or friendship at all: it's about power.


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## Tracyarts (Oct 14, 2009)

" 1. Why would somebody lie to a person clearly looking for a relationship when one is not available? "

IMHO, the simple answer to that one is because they believe that being truthful about their relationship status won't get them the girl (or guy) that they are attracted to. 

" 2. Why would somebody go on for years returning to another, "alternate" partner despite the presence of a LTR? "

Simple answer to that one...because they enjoy what they get from both relationships enough to maintain them both and don't see a reason why they should have to pick one over the other. This can be done either with or without deception. Sometimes everybody involved knows and is okay with the situation. Sometimes none of the partners know about each other. Sometimes one might know about the other but the other believes they are the only one. 

" 3. Do people enter into marriages (or civil unions) that they truly don't want? Do people feel guilted into staying or committing? Do people weigh two situations in the balance (this one or that one?) and choose the long term 'official' partner because it's too hard to break up? "

Absolutely. I know at least a few people in relationships they would rather not be in but remain involved with "officially" for various reasons. Guilt, fear of being on their own, not being able to earn enough to finance the standard of living they have with their partner, for the children, they would be shunned by their religious community if they divorced, to not be deported, shame over the relationship failing, one thing is missing (sex, shared interests, etc...) but everything else is good, child support and/or alimony is more expensive than just staying and making the best of it.

" We are also interested in hearing from anyone who has been the protagonist in a situation such as this. i.e. somebody who may have been married or cohabitting or engaged and yet continued to pursue another person on an emotional level. " 

I am involved in that kind of a situation, but without any lying or deception involved. 

Tracy


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 14, 2009)

Very interesting questions. 

This is the thing for me. If you find one person who fulfills every single emotional and sexual need you have - god bless and good luck. I just figured out a long time ago - that THE ONE - did not exist for me. Wayne comes as close as any one person ever has - but why put pressure on him to give me what he either can't or won't?? People do the best they can in relationships and asking for more than that is why (IMO) so many people get divorced. The sad thing is, eventually you figure out all marriages are the same, there is always something missing, and figuring that out later than sooner leaves a lot of emotionally devastated people.

There is no such thing - as right or wrong in any relationship. It is about 2 adults living in a way that they are both OK with and not giving a damn about what anyone else says.






LoveBHMS said:


> That's what I meant about being curious about a polyamory perspective.
> 
> I was thinking it might be possible that somebody has certain necessary qualities in a life partner but that there are other needs, be they emotional or sexual or social that can't necessarily be met by a life partner, nor do some people feel it's necessary.
> 
> ...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 14, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> This makes sense, but here's my problem with it. In my case the person carried things on for many years. Had it been a simple addiction to the "new", you'd think that would wear off after more than five years. Not only is it no longer 'new' but situation now has the added baggage of "you lied to me" and a whole lot of drama. The other woman (in this case me) is no longer thinking about romance and dating because she knows the man is unavailable for those things.
> 
> There are for sure serial cheaters who are always seeking out the thrill of the new, but I'm trying to figure out why somebody would want to hold onto the same "new" one for the long haul.



I think that it can still be the case. The newness and butterflies, etc. was just too irresistable at the time. He's acted upon it and now he's got two relationships going on with two people he likes/loves for different reasons and doesn't want to let go of. Liking the newness of a budding relationship doesn't necessarily mean he has no feelings at all for the person it's with. Quite the contrary, if those feelings weren't there it wouldn't work anyway.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 14, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> OK - but my idea of what is cheating is very different from most peoples. One person can never be everything to me. JMO.



Sandie this isn't about cheating in that context. This guy could have been in an open marriage and the discussion would be the same. The issue here is that the woman he pursued for a relationship would not have consented to it had she known he was married/committed. He knew this beforehand so he decided to just keep it from her and cultivate a relationship with her just because he wants to. This is the kind of cheating we're talking about. He cheated HER, he cheated on her and this is wrong. Just because this woman is not his main squeeze does not make her user friendly and insignificant.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

Tracyarts said:


> " 1. Why would somebody lie to a person clearly looking for a relationship when one is not available? "
> 
> IMHO, the simple answer to that one is because they believe that being truthful about their relationship status won't get them the girl (or guy) that they are attracted to.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing from what you and Sandie have said, the concept of power referred to in several posts here is not an issue. When all parties involved are aware of a situation, nobody gains power---it's merely fulfillment of various needs and the recognition by all involved of those needs. The more I think this through, the concept of true polyamory actually seems to be the polar opposite of the situations I'm talking about, strictly because of the honesty factor.

I've also looked at my own self esteem within different situations. I have been sexually and emotionally intimate with married men prior to this one. Where the men were honest along the lines of "I'm married and staying that way. Here is what i'm offering you, take it or leave it", my self esteem was not harmed. I certainly understood I wanted a romantic relationship of my own and those situations were not ideal, but they never made me feel bad about myself. The one where I was lied to has created a massive blow to my sense of self worth, it's made me really have some serious times of anger and self loathing whereas situations where I knew the truth did not do that at all.


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## thatgirl08 (Oct 14, 2009)

I think a lot of people put people on the back burner while pursuing another relationship. They keep you waiting because if the first relationship fails, you're going to be there. 

This hasn't happened to me personally but did happen to one of my close friends and I felt terrible for her. Mostly I think she felt 'used' like he was waiting to see if his primary relationship would work out before completely getting rid of her.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 14, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I think a lot of people put people on the back burner while pursuing another relationship. They keep you waiting because if the first relationship fails, you're going to be there.
> 
> This hasn't happened to me personally but did happen to one of my close friends and I felt terrible for her. Mostly I think she felt 'used' like he was waiting to see if his primary relationship would work out before completely getting rid of her.



I think this absolutely happens, but in the situations she and I were discussing, I did not feel as though that were the case, primarily because both of the main relationships were maintained and progressed over time (both went from cohabitation to legal marriage) and the males involved continually pursued us.

I can not say I felt 'used' largely because I found out he was in a relationship and I could have walked, I did not. I feel lots of things, mostly anger towards him for allowing me and encouraging me to fall in love, but I can't say used. I also feel really resentful because of the dishonesty.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 14, 2009)

OK I understand that. I don't want to comment on this because I've been there and my feelings about this are very different from others. 




LillyBBBW said:


> Sandie this isn't about cheating in that context. This guy could have been in an open marriage and the discussion would be the same. The issue here is that the woman he pursued for a relationship would not have consented to it had she known he was married/committed. He knew this beforehand so he decided to just keep it from her and cultivate a relationship with her just because he wants to. This is the kind of cheating we're talking about. He cheated HER, he cheated on her and this is wrong. Just because this woman is not his main squeeze does not make her user friendly and insignificant.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 15, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> OK I understand that. I don't want to comment on this because I've been there and my feelings about this are very different from others.



I really do try not to speak in absolutes when it comes to declaring what is natural and what is unnatural for humans to be inclined to. Monogamy happens to be natural for me and apparently it is also for others too or the world wouldn't be the way it is. If it isn't for you that's perfectly fine but neither of us should impose our way of life on each other or coerce each other into abiding by rules we aren't comfortable with. My personal feelings are that no one should be made to feel bad about it either way. Develope whatever kind of relationships you want to develope as long as all parties are consenting. Beyond that there are going to be issues.


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## Tracyarts (Oct 15, 2009)

" Develope whatever kind of relationships you want to develope as long as all parties are consenting. Beyond that there are going to be issues. "

I have some acquaintences (male and female) who believe that it is not their responsibility to keep anybody else's commitments or vows, therefore they find nothing morally wrong with getting involved with married or otherwise committed people whose partners don't know they are engaging in extramarital sexual/romantic relationships. The relationship is between the two of them and not the two of them and the other's committed partner. If the spouse/partner finds out, it is simply not their problem because they were only taking what was freely offered to them by another consenting adult.

I don't agree with them, because of deception factor and the fact that there is the very real potential for an innocent person to be hurt and hurt badly. But everybody has to abide by their own personal morals, ethics, and values; and some people just don't have a problem with being part of that kind of scenario.

Tracy


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 15, 2009)

Tracyarts said:


> " Develope whatever kind of relationships you want to develope as long as all parties are consenting. Beyond that there are going to be issues. "
> 
> *I have some acquaintences (male and female) who believe that it is not their responsibility to keep anybody else's commitments or vows, therefore they find nothing morally wrong with getting involved with married or otherwise committed people whose partners don't know they are engaging in extramarital sexual/romantic relationships. *The relationship is between the two of them and not the two of them and the other's committed partner. If the spouse/partner finds out, it is simply not their problem because they were only taking what was freely offered to them by another consenting adult.
> 
> ...



I agree with this to an extent. I've always believed it is the responsibility of the committed person to keep promises or vows, not mine. I would not agree with this in a situation where the other woman is a fried, relative, or otherwise in a position where she should trust you. But a total stranger? I feel like her problem is that her partner chose to step out on her and that problem is between the two of them and not me. IOW, the committed person is the doing the cheating. HE said "foresaking" all others and then didn't.

Oftentimes in these discussions, somebody looks towards the animal world and points out how they behave whether in regard to polygamy, homosexuality, or aggression. It's interesting that there seems to be a biological imperative to show aggression towards or even kill romantic rivals. With humans, it's so often the other woman who gets described as a whore or homewrecker, rather than there being as much focus on the cheating husband.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 15, 2009)

Tracyarts said:


> " Develope whatever kind of relationships you want to develope as long as all parties are consenting. Beyond that there are going to be issues. "
> 
> I have some acquaintences (male and female) who believe that it is not their responsibility to keep anybody else's commitments or vows, therefore they find nothing morally wrong with getting involved with married or otherwise committed people whose partners don't know they are engaging in extramarital sexual/romantic relationships. The relationship is between the two of them and not the two of them and the other's committed partner. If the spouse/partner finds out, it is simply not their problem because they were only taking what was freely offered to them by another consenting adult.
> 
> ...



I've been in a relationship where my partner was in an open marriage. I draw the line where people are cheating on a spouse though. I've seen what this kind of thing does to a person or to entire families and I prefer not to be a party to that. 

OH here's a question!! You're blissfully married but your spouse is secretly seeking a relationship outside of your marriage. Would you want to be told?


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 15, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I've been in a relationship where my partner was in an open marriage. I draw the line where people are cheating on a spouse though. I've seen what this kind of thing does to a person or to entire families and I prefer not to be a party to that.
> 
> *OH here's a question!! You're blissfully married but your spouse is secretly seeking a relationship outside of your marriage. Would you want to be told?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 15, 2009)

People lie to get what they want. If they want love, acceptance or approval and you give them that even after you know they're lying (to you or anyone else) you're condoning the behavior. I'm not even going to say that's wrong, just that you should be clear about what you're doing. It's hypocritical to complain about liars and reward them at the same time. Some people attach a higher value to integrity than others. It's a _preference_, not a fetish! Oops, wrong thread. :doh:


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## Webmaster (Oct 15, 2009)

It pretty much always takes two to tango, though in retrospect recollection of the music played often varies.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 15, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> OH here's a question!! You're blissfully married but your spouse is secretly seeking a relationship outside of your marriage. Would you want to be told?



Told by who? Someone who doesn't like me and wants to ruin my marriage? How does anyone but me know what the circumstances are of my husband looking outside our marriage? 

I know several people who have a "don't ask, don't tell" agreement with their spouse. So is it still a secret? Yes it is a secret, but an agreed upon secret.

Sorry, I just get tons of questions in my head when subjects like this are discussed.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 15, 2009)

Webmaster said:


> It pretty much always takes two to tango, though in retrospect recollection of the music played often varies.



That's one hell of an answer chief!!! LOL


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## rollhandler (Oct 15, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I've been in a relationship where my partner was in an open marriage. I draw the line where people are cheating on a spouse though. I've seen what this kind of thing does to a person or to entire families and I prefer not to be a party to that.
> 
> OH here's a question!! You're blissfully married but your spouse is secretly seeking a relationship outside of your marriage. Would you want to be told?



As an openminded male I say YES. For one reason the ones that know and keep their mouths shut are complicit to the activity by their silence, and just as likely to lose my respect once it comes to light. 

For another reason they may have insight as to why the person is doing so and as such can help me determine the foreward path. Either I can use the information as a catylist for change (if it is something I can change) or move on knowing that I had friends that cared enough to trust me in making my own choices, or willing to put a friendship on the line to do the right thing.
Rollhandler


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## Tina (Oct 15, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> I've also looked at my own self esteem within different situations. I have been sexually and emotionally intimate with married men prior to this one. Where the men were honest along the lines of "I'm married and staying that way. Here is what i'm offering you, take it or leave it", my self esteem was not harmed. I certainly understood I wanted a romantic relationship of my own and those situations were not ideal, but they never made me feel bad about myself. The one where I was lied to has created a massive blow to my sense of self worth, it's made me really have some serious times of anger and self loathing whereas situations where I knew the truth did not do that at all.


I have to say, and this is not necessarily personal to you, but to any woman who is helping a married man cheat and therefore hurt a sister, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the other woman. Boo hoo, her feelings were hurt. 

Is it the other woman's fault if she doesn't know? No. But it's always the philandering guy's fault and once the other woman knows and stays? Just as much her fault.

If the guy and his wife have an understanding, fine. Without that, he's a lying, cheating bastard, and the other woman is no better if she goes into it knowing and/or stays in the relationship with him after finding out. In this equation, the _only_ person's feelings I care about are that of the wife, who has been lied to, cheated on and exposed to disease without her consent.


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## rollhandler (Oct 15, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Told by who? Someone who doesn't like me and wants to ruin my marriage? How does anyone but me know what the circumstances are of my husband looking outside our marriage?
> 
> I know several people who have a "don't ask, don't tell" agreement with their spouse. So is it still a secret? Yes it is a secret, but an agreed upon secret.
> 
> Sorry, I just get tons of questions in my head when subjects like this are discussed.



If that is the agreement you have then simply take the information with a thank you, and move on. You have learned something valuable either way.
It all has to do with how you choose to look at the information and the informant and motives involved.
Rollhandler


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## Tracyarts (Oct 15, 2009)

" It all has to do with how you choose to look at the information and the informant and motives involved. "

That's an important point, too. Because if you're going to tell somebody their partner is cheating on them because you feel it's the right thing to do, you better be damn sure that you know for a fact that they are. Because basing your accusations on secondhand information or suspicious behavior can cause a LOT of trouble for everybody involved if it turns out you were mistaken.

And if somebody comes to you with information about your partner cheating on you, before you totally fly off the handle, think about who they are in relation to you and in regards to what kind of person they are, what their motives for telling you might be, and how do they claim to know what they say they know? 

I have been sucked into psycho female drama games one too many times to be willing to take an accusation like that seriously from just anybody. If it were one of my best friends that I trust completely? I'd take it seriously. If it were somebody I wasn't as close to, then I'd want to know just what they think they know and how they came about knowing it. 

I believe that many women would only be doing what they felt is the right thing by looking out for a "sister". But I also know from experience that there are a LOT of crazy bitches out there who get their jollies from screwing with other womens' minds and relationships. And it's really hard to tell one from the other, especially when they drop that kind of a bombshell in your lap.

Tracy


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 15, 2009)

Tracyarts said:


> I believe that many women would only be doing what they felt is the right thing by looking out for a "sister". But I also know from experience that there are a LOT of crazy bitches out there who get their jollies from screwing with other womens' minds and relationships. And it's really hard to tell one from the other, especially when they drop that kind of a bombshell in your lap.
> 
> Tracy



AMEN!!

Been there, done that, it has left me jaded when it comes to friendships with women. All my best friends over the last 15 years have been men. And even now, I have several women I am friendly with but my best friend is a man, who has been my closest friend for a long time. He tells me I'm not "feline" enough to have girlfriends. And he might be right - I hate that kind of behavior and if I detect even a hint of it, I'm gone. It cuts down on friends sure, but it cuts down on drama too.


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## Weeze (Oct 15, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I think a lot of people put people on the back burner while pursuing another relationship. They keep you waiting because if the first relationship fails, you're going to be there.
> 
> This hasn't happened to me personally but did happen to one of my close friends and I felt terrible for her. Mostly I think she felt 'used' like he was waiting to see if his primary relationship would work out before completely getting rid of her.



ding ding ding ding ding ding ding


Been there, done that.. a few times, actually. And i'm only 19.


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## Admiral_Snackbar (Oct 15, 2009)

Webmaster said:


> It pretty much always takes two to tango, though in retrospect recollection of the music played often varies.



Or rather one person is running that record at 45 rpm and the other one is coasting along at 33 1/3. 



Tracyarts said:


> That's an important point, too. Because if you're going to tell somebody their partner is cheating on them because you feel it's the right thing to do, you better be damn sure that you know for a fact that they are. Because basing your accusations on secondhand information or suspicious behavior can cause a LOT of trouble for everybody involved if it turns out you were mistaken.



The door swings both ways. A friend of mine got so shaken up by his previous marriage, spent so much time trying to fix it for 15+ years, that after his last one he said "I don't care if she does cheat on me, as long as she doesn't leave me." For a guy to admit that and accept it as a possible aspect of his marriage was pretty bold, but I've also known swinger/polyamory couples who think the same way. Only difference with swingers is usually everyone is screwing everyone else in their little circle, and it's only taboo when you step outside to pursue another lover. Weird situation, but it works for them I guess.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 15, 2009)

Tina said:


> I have to say, and this is not necessarily personal to you, but to any woman who is helping a married man cheat and therefore hurt a sister, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the other woman. Boo hoo, her feelings were hurt.
> 
> Is it the other woman's fault if she doesn't know? No. But it's always the philandering guy's fault and once the other woman knows and stays? Just as much her fault.
> 
> If the guy and his wife have an understanding, fine. Without that, he's a lying, cheating bastard, and the other woman is no better if she goes into it knowing and/or stays in the relationship with him after finding out. In this equation, the _only_ person's feelings I care about are that of the wife, who has been lied to, cheated on and exposed to disease without her consent.



There is a big difference between being in love with somebody and having an affair. The situations laid out in my original post never said either of us had affairs with these men after they married, it said we'd fallen in love with them after being encouraged to believe they were single and available.

I wish it were that easy to turn off feelings and hopes once you find out you were lied to. It's not easy at all.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 15, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> *Most commonly though I have seen people so unused to attention from the opposite gender that they latch on and fall for everyone that shows sincere interest, then cant figure out how to get out of it gracefully until there is no choice but to hurt someone.* In this instance I wonder if they are merely waiting for one of the partners to break up with them, thus making it so they don't have to:
> a) hurt someone by their choice.
> b) look bad by admitting to what they have done.
> c) make the choice at all if both partners are good enough to keep.
> ...






mossystate said:


> Perhaps the cheater does that...holds on for the long haul...because ' you ' seem a sure thing. You learn they are already in a relationship, and you stick around. They know that they can get away with pretty much anything. First the woman/man they are with ( they are not told )...and now with the person they can call when they want a little variety. Has to be a powerful/secure feeling for that type. No matter the reasons why, it really boils down to being selfish. Whatever has them searching....they prefer to not deal with it. They prefer to hurt people. Why is it so many people think they are so good at lying/justifying. Silly humans.





Dr. Feelgood said:


> I agree with Mossy. It sounds to me as if this isn't really about love or friendship at all: it's about power.





thatgirl08 said:


> I think a lot of people put people on the back burner while pursuing another relationship. They keep you waiting because if the first relationship fails, you're going to be there.
> 
> This hasn't happened to me personally but did happen to one of my close friends and I felt terrible for her. Mostly I think she felt 'used' like he was waiting to see if his primary relationship would work out before completely getting rid of her.



Years ago, I remember hearing a psychologist assert that people that screw around a lot or have/attempt to have many sexual partners have low self esteem issues. 

I think those low self esteem issues are variants in the user/liar and the used/accepting partner. 





Ernest Nagel said:


> Like most unpleasant or immoral behavior the short answer to why this kind of thing happens is _the male ego_. We're more acculturated to overtly seek praise, attention and affection. When the woman in the primary relationship has seen his basic frog nature, feet of clay, what have you the "new" woman, at least momentarily and as far as he knows, sees a a prince. Most men want someone who will see and acknowledge the best in them even if they realize that isn't sustainable, even if it jeopardizes a relationship with someone who loves and accepts them as they are.
> 
> I've been accused of misandry and pandering here but I'm not saying all or even most men are pigs. All we really are is need fulfillment machines. Some men desperately need to have their value and desirability constantly reaffirmed. Sometimes, even if the wife is providing all the praise and support she can, a guy can't trust her because he knows she's seen him at his worst. Some men feel they have to have someone they haven't disappointed or at at least haven't managed to fail completely yet.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to say that....women can feel/behave this way, too, sometimes. I don't see it as a primarily "man thing". 



rollhandler said:


> One other type I have seen is the one with abandonment issues that will latch on to more than one partner being afraid that eventually the one they have already will leave them eventually. They are so afraid of being alone that this fear causes them to keep a backup relationship and lie to maintain it for years before they can relax enough to see that the one they had first isn't just another letdown and commit to them.



Interesting idea....care to post about it in the abandonment issues thread? 





LoveBHMS said:


> This makes sense, but here's my problem with it. In my case the person carried things on for many years. Had it been a simple addiction to the "new", you'd think that would wear off after more than five years. Not only is it no longer 'new' but situation now has the added baggage of "you lied to me" and a whole lot of drama. The other woman (in this case me) is no longer thinking about romance and dating because she knows the man is unavailable for those things.
> 
> There are for sure serial cheaters who are always seeking out the thrill of the new, but I'm trying to figure out why somebody would want to hold onto the same "new" one for the long haul.



Perhaps the reasons they first approached you and the reason why they stayed so long afterwards are two distinctly different things?
Relationships change....even if they realized they couldn't have the extramarital "fling", perhaps they enjoyed the good times/memories and friendships established with you?

It's kind of like how a person is first physically attracted to someone....but learn to like/love them over time for whatever reason. 




Tracyarts said:


> " Develope whatever kind of relationships you want to develope as long as all parties are consenting. Beyond that there are going to be issues. "
> 
> *I have some acquaintences (male and female) who believe that it is not their responsibility to keep anybody else's commitments or vows, therefore they find nothing morally wrong with getting involved with married or otherwise committed people whose partners don't know they are engaging in extramarital sexual/romantic relationships. The relationship is between the two of them and not the two of them and the other's committed partner. If the spouse/partner finds out, it is simply not their problem because they were only taking what was freely offered to them by another consenting adult.*
> 
> ...



I understand why someone might think that way, but on some level, it strikes me as making excuses for not giving a damn about who you hurt. 
It also strikes me as a stupid/insane way to view things simply because....if that person's spouse finds out and decides to go after the "other man/woman" with a shotgun, I bet they care then.....:blink: 
Just taking a guess, but the spouse/offended party might not just see the person they are married to as the only party at "fault". 
People are vengeful....treading carefully around other people's marriages/relationships is good karma and common sense, IMO. 



Ernest Nagel said:


> People lie to get what they want. If they want love, acceptance or approval and you give them that even after you know they're lying (to you or anyone else) you're condoning the behavior. I'm not even going to say that's wrong, just that you should be clear about what you're doing. It's hypocritical to complain about liars and reward them at the same time. Some people attach a higher value to integrity than others. It's a _preference_, not a fetish! Oops, wrong thread. :doh:



I concur...it's always that simple, isn't it? People give you as much crap as you are willing to accept. 
This is from someone that can still struggle with self esteem issues/bad self decisions so no judgments. 
My "strength" in _any_ relationship I have ever had has always came at the point where I stop accepting those things I don't want. In other words, I am willing to walk away....or actually do, before the lying, abuse, usery stops.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 15, 2009)

> Perhaps the reasons they first approached you and the reason why they stayed so long afterwards are two distinctly different things?
> Relationships change....even if they realized they couldn't have the extramarital "fling", perhaps they enjoyed the good times/memories and friendships established with you?
> 
> It's kind of like how a person is first physically attracted to someone....but learn to like/love them over time for whatever reason.



You know GEF that is a really good point, and I think it might be applicable in a lot of situations, but one thing this other woman and I both found was that these men continually tried to encourage romantic feelings on our part even after we found out they were taken. In both cases, they admitted to having (then) live in partners and then wives. In both cases they professed love to us and expressed deep regret over their marriages.

At least with me I said "get divorced and then come see me" because I did not want to be a mistress. I made it very clear that I was not going to be a side dish and that he had made his choice and either had to live with it or go through the necessary hardships to change the situation. It's so hard when you really love the person but you can't have them. I know that sounds simplistic but it's just where my heart is.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 15, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> You know GEF that is a really good point, and I think it might be applicable in a lot of situations, but one thing this other woman and I both found was that these men continually tried to encourage romantic feelings on our part even after we found out they were taken. In both cases, they admitted to having (then) live in partners and then wives. In both cases they professed love to us and expressed deep regret over their marriages.
> 
> At least with me I said "get divorced and then come see me" because I did not want to be a mistress. I made it very clear that I was not going to be a side dish and that he had made his choice and either had to live with it or go through the necessary hardships to change the situation. It's so hard when you really love the person but you can't have them. I know that sounds simplistic but it's just where my heart is.



I think you telling him that goes back to what I also said in my earlier post: You didn't "accept" his terms and he respects you for that. 
Funny thing I have noticed about men....they often time seem to hold up a woman that doesn't give them what they want while they put down the one that does. 
Not sure if women do this....I don't date them


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 15, 2009)

I dunno, the more I think about these two situations, and mix in thinking about Tracey and Sandie observations about polyamory, the more I think it comes down to this.

The primary difference between open polyamory and "cheating" is the honesty factor. If you're in a committed partnership that is supposed to be monogamous and you are with somebody else, you're a cheater. With open marriages or polyamory, there is an open understanding between partners that some needs will be met outside of the primary partnership. Engaging in an openly polyamorous lifestyle seems to be based on the belief that one person can not meet all of another's needs.

In the cases I posted about, the men clearly had *some* need the primary partner could not meet. Maybe it was the need for constant new butterflies or maybe it was the sexual chemistry or maybe we provided some mental or emotional stimulation they were lacking. They may have been unhappy but as Tracey suggested, some people stay out of guilt or necessity or laziness.

I feel like the lying just corroded everything. All the good feelings, the fun we had, the intense sexuality, it's all colored by the dishonesty and lack of respect. I think the other woman I was talking with feels the same way.


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## lavendersummer (Oct 16, 2009)

1. Why would somebody lie to a person clearly looking for a relationship when one is not available?

A million reasons. All of them unflattering and ineffably selfish. 

2. Why would somebody go on for years returning to another, "alternate" partner despite the presence of a LTR?

Same.

3. Do people enter into marriages (or civil unions) that they truly don't want? Do people feel guilted into staying or committing? Do people weigh two situations in the balance (this one or that one?) and choose the long term 'official' partner because it's too hard to break up?

People enter into and remain in partnerships for many different reasons. Some of these reasons are noble, some are not. Some are healthy, some are not. Some are manifestations of the highest emotions for which the human being is capable--love, respect, commitment, empathic bonding--and others are less pretty--fear-based, financially-driven, self-serving, the need to control or possess; and then you have more banal reasons such as familiarity, ie, the devil you know is better than the one you don't. The bottom line remains: partners in a relationship are _both_ being mutually fed, they are *both* getting something from the partnership, no matter how seemingly unhappy or unsatisfying it may look to an outsider. It may or not be a healthy feeding, but it is always there. A cheating partner may tell the world of all the reasons he or she remains in their miserable relationship, but I guarantee you that the day the partner stops "feeding" those needs, whatever they may be, the relationship ends.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 16, 2009)

lavendersummer said:


> 1. Why would somebody lie to a person clearly looking for a relationship when one is not available?
> 
> A million reasons. All of them unflattering and ineffably selfish.
> 
> ...



Good post Lavender. Welcome to the Boards  :bow: 





As far as "not having all your needs met by a partner".....who does? All relationships are give/take/compromising, IMO and observations. You only get part of what you need from anyone.....and only give your partner part of what they need. 
That seems normal and to be expected....you know that part going in. That's why people have to learn some emotional self sufficiency (sayeth the addict here). Other people cannot give you everything you need or want out of life. 

That does not give anyone the right to misrepresent or lie....or even try to make excuses to blow off the feelings and rights of other human beings. 

You get what you give.....I believe in things running full circle and karma. 

It's like Lavender said.....those guys give you and your friends SOMETHING you want/need....and you do the same. The hardest part for me whenever I try to break free from a bad/abusive relationship has been figuring out what need he fulfills for me.....and trying to fill that void myself in whatever way possible. 
Then other times.....it's simply been the price for having that need met/void filled was too high so I got off the ride. 

Not going to try and tell you if that applies to your relationship or not.....just thinking it might be food for thought though


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## lavendersummer (Oct 17, 2009)

Thank you, Ms. Fairy, for the kind welcome.

In discussions like these, there are invariably a few people who will attempt to rationalize the greatest of all possible betrayals, assuming that the hole in their own hearts and chasms in their relationships is a universal state of being. They'll allude to their belief that monogamy is unnatural and that, secretly, we all struggle with it, our natural proclivities raging mightily against it. Of course, that's patently untrue. That's only a self-stroking, tortured rationale designed to give comfort. 

That reminds me of a female friend of mine who completely and wholeheartedly believed there were two kinds of men in this world: the too-kind saps and the Stanley Kowalski savages, and nothing in-between. Of course, her experiences with both life and men were limited, and her unyielding beliefs were based on that ignorance. We are our beliefs, after all. And, after a while, those beliefs become who we are, and we become so tethered to them that they are our gravity--without them, we believe we'd float away, amorphous and undefined.

To some, those who know that their partner's very souls are comprised of the same stuff as our own, the thought of a third party for either a physical or emotional liaison is as unthinkable as murder, as unlikely as flying to the moon with a pair of wings, as vile as eating dirt. I say emotional because not all betrayals are physical; just as many happen between the ears--and in some ways, the latter is more insidious.

The fact remains: there will always be those who betray great trusts (for a wide variety of reasons) although some are more honest about it than others. If there is to be any dignity in it, tell your partner you want out instead of selfishly leading a double life that is guaranteed to destroy at least two others'--whether it's a quick explosion or a slow, decades-long death by a thousand cuts.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 17, 2009)

> In discussions like these, there are invariably a few people who will attempt to rationalize the greatest of all possible betrayals, assuming that the hole in their own hearts and chasms in their relationships is a universal state of being. They'll allude to their belief that monogamy is unnatural and that, secretly, we all struggle with it, our natural proclivities raging mightily against it. Of course, that's patently untrue. That's only a self-stroking, tortured rationale designed to give comfort.



I have to say I think this is unfair. I, personally, would prefer a monogamous situation. But the fact that it would be my preference has nothing to do with the fact that *adult* women such as Tracey and Sandie believe in polyamory. What they do, how they feel, how they communicate with partners is none of my business at all. Whether or not I practice their sexualality does not mean I have any right at all to deem it "self stroking" or "tortured" or a "rationale designed to give comfort."

The only person, or persons who are allowed to have an opinion on your sexual orientation are your partners or potential partners. Beyond that? No.


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## katorade (Oct 17, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> At least with me I said "get divorced and then come see me" because I did not want to be a mistress.




That line drives me nuts, and it's not the first time I've heard it. That is simply setting yourself up to fail. What if he does get divorced and comes to see you? Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone that obviously doesn't value relationships? Do you really want to welcome a man back into your arms knowing full well that he might cheat on you?

Also, I don't agree with the "letting go is hard" part. I've been in that situation before. Letting go was the EASIEST part and I couldn't get rid of him fast enough. Getting him the hell out of my hair wasn't.


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## lavendersummer (Oct 17, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> I have to say I think this is unfair. I, personally, would prefer a monogamous situation. But the fact that it would be my preference has nothing to do with the fact that *adult* women such as Tracey and Sandie believe in polyamory. What they do, how they feel, how they communicate with partners is none of my business at all. Whether or not I practice their sexualality does not mean I have any right at all to deem it "self stroking" or "tortured" or a "rationale designed to give comfort."
> 
> The only person, or persons who are allowed to have an opinion on your sexual orientation are your partners or potential partners. Beyond that? No.



Being unfair would be a show of personal disrespect. My remarks were not personal, nor were they directed at anyone in particular. 

Certainly sexual or lifestyle preferences are none of anyone's business, but on a discussion forum, if one is going to write about something--personal or not, it then becomes fair game for a civilly expressed opinion in response. General remarks always run the risk of being taken personally, but then that's the nature of internet discussion.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 17, 2009)

I didn't see her post as being directed at me or anyone really. And you know what? In my nearly 50 years on this planet, I know one thing for sure. No one lives my life but ME. So I live it for me. I don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks or says.* I *walk this walk, no one else. 






LoveBHMS said:


> I have to say I think this is unfair. I, personally, would prefer a monogamous situation. But the fact that it would be my preference has nothing to do with the fact that *adult* women such as Tracey and Sandie believe in polyamory. What they do, how they feel, how they communicate with partners is none of my business at all. Whether or not I practice their sexualality does not mean I have any right at all to deem it "self stroking" or "tortured" or a "rationale designed to give comfort."
> 
> The only person, or persons who are allowed to have an opinion on your sexual orientation are your partners or potential partners. Beyond that? No.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 18, 2009)

katorade said:


> That line drives me nuts, and it's not the first time I've heard it. That is simply setting yourself up to fail. What if he does get divorced and comes to see you? Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone that obviously doesn't value relationships? Do you really want to welcome a man back into your arms knowing full well that he might cheat on you?
> 
> Also, I don't agree with the "letting go is hard" part. I've been in that situation before. Letting go was the EASIEST part and I couldn't get rid of him fast enough. Getting him the hell out of my hair wasn't.



Quoted for truth, and also because I couldn't REP you.

I can't understand the concept of feeling/being "helplessly" in love with someone who is fundamentally flawed. We do have some choice about who we fall in love with, even if he/she hauled out only the good qualities for a period of time and we fell for a lie. Once you find out that the person is question has a serious character flaw, there is some choice involved. Granted, it isn't easy to walk away from what you thought was the perfect mate, but that's all about letting go of a dream. I don't think I could sustain any kind of love for a man that I couldn't respect, unless that man was my son/brother/father. And even at that, I'd love but wouldn't be able to like.


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## Tracyarts (Oct 18, 2009)

" I have to say I think this is unfair. I, personally, would prefer a monogamous situation. But the fact that it would be my preference has nothing to do with the fact that adult women such as Tracey and Sandie believe in polyamory. What they do, how they feel, how they communicate with partners is none of my business at all. "

I didn't think of that response as having anything to do with me at all. And here's why:

" In discussions like these, there are invariably a few people who will attempt to rationalize the greatest of all possible betrayals "

I am not "betraying" anybody, nobody I am involved with is "betraying" anybody. There's no knife in anybody's back. Cheating on somebody by deceiving them into thinking you are faithful only to them while going behind their back with another person is betrayal. Although, I wouldn't consider it to be _THE_ greatest of all possible betrayals a person can commit against another person.

" assuming that the hole in their own hearts and chasms in their relationships is a universal state of being "

If I had a hole in my heart, I couldn't manage a long-term committed loving relationship with only one person, and if there were chasms in my relationships then things would be a lot different than they are. Instead of the love, affection, concern, support, and happiness we have there would be drama, angst, heartache, anger, jealousy, and sadness. 

" They'll allude to their belief that monogamy is unnatural and that, secretly, we all struggle with it, our natural proclivities raging mightily against it. "

No, I think people need to just do what feels natural to them as far as relationships. I think monogamy can work just fine if that's what feels right to you and if you actually remain faithful to your one and only partner. However, I do not think that monogamy is superior. If monogamy was all that and the one true relationship dynamic, then there wouldn't be hundreds of ads in every major city on Craigslist and Backpage from so presumably monogamous people looking to hook up and cheat on their partners. And the divorce rate wouldn't be running as high as it is. I think a LOT of people who by nature are not monogamous or on the fence about it try and conform to the cultural norm of monogamy and wind up failing miserably. You just have to do what makes sense to you.

" Of course, that's patently untrue. That's only a self-stroking, tortured rationale designed to give comfort. "

Now, this is just melodramatic. It reminds me of this woman I know who so desperately NEEDS with all of her being for my relationships to go sour and destroy me. It just offends her so badly that we're happy that she can't accept it as reality. Every year that goes by, she can only say that she is genuinely shocked that it hasn't all blown up in my face yet. With the unspoken continuation of "but it will..." She has this little fantasy in her mind of how tortured and broken and deluded we must be. Because to her, what we have together is so wrong that it simply cannot exist, therefore it must not exist, and instead must be what she believes it to be. It's kinda creepy actually. To hear and read my reality described by her in such a warped and twisted way. I think OMG, is that _really_ what you see? Or is that what you need to see in order to wrap your mind around it?

Tracy


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## lavendersummer (Oct 18, 2009)

Hi Tracy-

I wasn't referring to those with agreed, open arrangements. So I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond to me personally. I hadn't even read your post or posts, quite frankly. Heck, I didn't even read the whole thread.

What I did briefly mention was general: I wrote that there are those who insist monogamy isn't "natural" or that the human species fights against it. I did write what I think about that particular opinion. I don't believe it to be true, and I talked about how one's beliefs become reality.

Now, you state your case quite passionately, but I am not sure it's me you have to convince. I have not yet expressed an opinion about open relationships. If you both are happy with this choice, then who gives a damn about what someone on a discussion board thinks?

Now that you brought it up, however, I do think open relationships are a sad stepping stone or gauze pad to no relationship, but of course I don't expect you to agree.

Thanks for responding, though


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## lavendersummer (Oct 18, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I didn't see her post as being directed at me or anyone really. And you know what? In my nearly 50 years on this planet, I know one thing for sure. No one lives my life but ME. So I live it for me. I don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks or says.* I *walk this walk, no one else.



Thank you for recognizing the truth of that; I was not directing my writing at *anyone*, although it does seem I might have kicked an anthill. That was not my intent. I was just expressing an opinion, that's all.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 18, 2009)

katorade said:


> That line drives me nuts, and it's not the first time I've heard it. That is simply setting yourself up to fail. What if he does get divorced and comes to see you? Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone that obviously doesn't value relationships? Do you really want to welcome a man back into your arms knowing full well that he might cheat on you?
> 
> Also, I don't agree with the "letting go is hard" part. I've been in that situation before. Letting go was the EASIEST part and I couldn't get rid of him fast enough. Getting him the hell out of my hair wasn't.






TraciJo67 said:


> Quoted for truth, and also because I couldn't REP you.
> 
> I can't understand the concept of feeling/being "helplessly" in love with someone who is fundamentally flawed. We do have some choice about who we fall in love with, even if he/she hauled out only the good qualities for a period of time and we fell for a lie. Once you find out that the person is question has a serious character flaw, there is some choice involved. Granted, it isn't easy to walk away from what you thought was the perfect mate, but that's all about letting go of a dream. I don't think I could sustain any kind of love for a man that I couldn't respect, unless that man was my son/brother/father. And even at that, I'd love but wouldn't be able to like.



I lingered for a long time in a relationship like this and for me it was definitely hard to let go. It is hard for me to convey the nuances and depth that was there in this relationship. It wasn't booty calls, not even about sex at all really. All I can tell you is that we had a type of friendship that I don't have with a lot of people. He was my best friend. When I found out that he had a whole other life somewhere and the lengths he went to to keep it a secret so he could preserve what we had together for as long as possible it made perfect sense to me, we were really close. Him starting this whole thing knowing what he knew was selfish and wrong, no mistake. The conversation shouldn't have gone any further than me slamming the door in his face and telling him to get lost but at that point he was as much a part of my life as any other beloved person or thing. I continued to see him because in all honesty I missed him horribly when he was gone and yearned to talk with him like I would a family member. All the while I knew I was going to have to stop seeing him but for me it was almost as if someone had died. Eventually I did end things but it was not something I could just say, "Oh, okay then this should end," and then smugly walk away satisfied with myself. After I broke it off he eventually married the other person. I'm glad I ended things but I still miss him sometimes. What he's done is shitty and selfish and I'm angry at what he did but I still love the person he is.


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## mossystate (Oct 18, 2009)

Lilly, I agree that it is not always easy to ' just ' let go of something/someone we know, on a very basic level...is oh so very bad for us. Emotions are not a light switch. Might be easier if that were the case, but it's not.


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## lavendersummer (Oct 18, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> After I broke it off he eventually married the other person. I'm glad I ended things but I still miss him sometimes. What he's done is shitty and selfish and I'm angry at what he did but I still love the person he is.



I am sorry you had to go through that, Lily. I felt the pain in your words--it was palpable. I think many of us fall in love with people who are bad for us, or inaccessible on some level, at one time or another. If we can manage to take away something beautiful from it--even if it's a memory or life lesson, then it can lessen the pain. 

I do have to ask you, though: I understand you loving him--I, too, have loved a man who was completely unavailable on every level. But you said you "love the person he is." The person he is misrepresented himself to you completely, he lived a lie, he kept secrets from you, one who considered herself his best friend. I understand missing him, loving him, and loving how you *felt* when with him. But "the person he is" didn't sound like something one would love. Did you mean to say the person you _thought_ he was? I know we may be playing with semantics here.

In any case, I am glad you were able to move on. Many people can't, or won't--they just keep treading water in a sea of pain. When I think back on the man I referred to, I smile because I know I dodged a bullet. I also smile at some delicious memories.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 18, 2009)

lavendersummer said:


> I am sorry you had to go through that, Lily. I felt the pain in your words--it was palpable. I think many of us fall in love with people who are bad for us, or inaccessible on some level, at one time or another. If we can manage to take away something beautiful from it--even if it's a memory or life lesson, then it can lessen the pain.
> 
> I do have to ask you, though: I understand you loving him--I, too, have loved a man who was completely unavailable on every level. But you said you "love the person he is." The person he is misrepresented himself to you completely, he lived a lie, he kept secrets from you, one who considered herself his best friend. I understand missing him, loving him, and loving how you *felt* when with him. But "the person he is" didn't sound like something one would love. Did you mean to say the person you _thought_ he was? I know we may be playing with semantics here.
> 
> In any case, I am glad you were able to move on. Many people can't, or won't--they just keep treading water in a sea of pain. When I think back on the man I referred to, I smile because I know I dodged a bullet. I also smile at some delicious memories.



I suppose I just don't subscribe to the notion that he misrepresented himself. The person I knew and the attributes that drew me to him in the first place were sincere and genuine. I don't believe that he was pretending to be someone he wasn't personality wise. It's just that on top of all that he is also a liar and a cheat and that part is just simply unacceptable. I don't think it does me any good to build him into a monster in order to shore up the resolve to do the right thing and prefer something better for myself. Things that are built upon delusions are easily torn down given the right climate and opportunity and I didn't want that to happen. If I ever run in to him on the street, and the likelyhood is there, and he's his same charming self with no trace of the discompassionate pirate I made him in to it won't be a surprise and it won't cause any inner uncertainty or regret on my part. Not sure if this makes sense or if it answers your question.


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## katorade (Oct 19, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I suppose I just don't subscribe to the notion that he misrepresented himself. The person I knew and the attributes that drew me to him in the first place were sincere and genuine. I don't believe that he was pretending to be someone he wasn't personality wise.* It's just that on top of all that he is also a liar and a cheat and that part is just simply unacceptable. *I don't think it does me any good to build him into a monster in order to shore up the resolve to do the right thing and prefer something better for myself. Things that are built upon delusions are easily torn down given the right climate and opportunity and I didn't want that to happen. If I ever run in to him on the street, and the likelyhood is there, and he's his same charming self with no trace of the discompassionate pirate I made him in to it won't be a surprise and it won't cause any inner uncertainty or regret on my part. Not sure if this makes sense or if it answers your question.




For me that is the most important part. They trump all of the other things I may have found attractive in the person, so it becomes incredibly easy for me at that point to wipe them out of my life entirely. How compatible we are as people doesn't account for shit if there isn't enough respect for honesty.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 19, 2009)

There is a difference between how somebody acts and who they are

These affairs des coere....they are not all black and white. I wish they were. It would be easier.

Misprepresnting your situation is not misrepresenting yourself.


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## katorade (Oct 19, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> There is a difference between how somebody acts and who they are
> 
> These affairs des coere....they are not all black and white. I wish they were. It would be easier.
> 
> Misprepresnting your situation is not misrepresenting yourself.



See, I see honesty as a HUGE representation of yourself.


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## lavendersummer (Oct 19, 2009)

katorade said:


> See, I see honesty as a HUGE representation of yourself.



I agree wholeheartedly.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 19, 2009)

katorade said:


> For me that is the most important part. They trump all of the other things I may have found attractive in the person, so it becomes incredibly easy for me at that point to wipe them out of my life entirely. How compatible we are as people doesn't account for shit if there isn't enough respect for honesty.



This wasn't simply about finding someone attractive. This was someone I fell in love with. It took time for this to happen, it took time for it to un-happen which was the inevitable end. In the past I've readily been able to get rid of dead weight and dead beats without any problem but this relationship was different. If it's easy for you then you are to be envied. The ability to be that way in a circumstance such as mine is not a common gift.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 19, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> There is a difference between how somebody acts and who they are
> 
> These affairs des coere....they are not all black and white. I wish they were. It would be easier.
> 
> Misprepresnting your situation is not misrepresenting yourself.



Well one thing is certain, once the lie was discovered the trust between us was completely eroded. There was no way. I stuck around for a while because he wasn't married at the time and I figured it was up to him to make a choice. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he really was a stand up guy and this was just a hapless thing that happened. After a while it became clear that his deception was intentional from the very beginning and his choice wasn't going to be me so I said enough is enough and ended things. It was painful but the blow to my self esteem and dignity was even more so. It was the only recourse in my mind. 

The one thing that was clear in this whole thing was how lonely and isolating something like this is. In this equasion I simply didn't have anyone on my side. This romeo was looking out only for himself and could give a crap about how this would ultimately effect me. His girlfriend, I didn't even know who she was. He had gone to great lengths to conceal and protect her with his duality. I probably could have figured out who she was but I didnt feel motivated to do so. It wasn't going to change anything and as you can see from the responses here from the people who are in marriages and relationships the chances that she would give a shit about me or what I had to say was slim to zero. Friends were pretty much discompassionate. Everybody had somebody looking out for them but me which left only me to care enough about myself to assert that I deserve better than to be treated like this. I did what I needed to do for me in the time frame that was comfortable for me to do it in and I'm ok with that. One thing was clear though, things could not go on like that forever and I could not keep looking after the door for him to show up. It had to end. Even if he 'came to his senses' and showed up on my doorstep saying that he was leaving [Jen], do I really want this man? This man who lied to me, lied to her and did so with a straight face absent of any guilt or introspection at all? I would never be able to trust anything he said and would question every odd incident between us for the rest of my life. The moment I knew about the lie, it was over. I just took some time for me to see to its end in a way that kept me as a priority and no one else. It seems selfish because it was.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 19, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Well one thing is certain, once the lie was discovered the trust between us was completely eroded. There was no way. I stuck around for a while because he wasn't married at the time and I figured it was up to him to make a choice. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he really was a stand up guy and this was just a hapless thing that happened. After a while it became clear that his deception was intentional from the very beginning and his choice wasn't going to be me so I said enough is enough and ended things. It was painful but the blow to my self esteem and dignity was even more so. It was the only recourse in my mind.
> 
> The one thing that was clear in this whole thing was how lonely and isolating something like this is. In this equasion I simply didn't have anyone on my side. This romeo was looking out only for himself and could give a crap about how this would ultimately effect me. His girlfriend, I didn't even know who she was. He had gone to great lengths to conceal and protect her with his duality. I probably could have figured out who she was but I didnt feel motivated to do so. It wasn't going to change anything and as you can see from the responses here from the people who are in marriages and relationships the chances that she would give a shit about me or what I had to say was slim to zero. Friends were pretty much discompassionate. Everybody had somebody looking out for them but me which left only me to care enough about myself to assert that I deserve better than to be treated like this. I did what I needed to do for me in the time frame that was comfortable for me to do it in and I'm ok with that. One thing was clear though, things could not go on like that forever and I could not keep looking after the door for him to show up. It had to end. Even if he 'came to his senses' and showed up on my doorstep saying that he was leaving [Jen], do I really want this man? This man who lied to me, lied to her and did so with a straight face absent of any guilt or introspection at all? I would never be able to trust anything he said and would question every odd incident between us for the rest of my life. The moment I knew about the lie, it was over. I just took some time for me to see to its end in a way that kept me as a priority and no one else. It seems selfish because it was.



But Lilly, you're writing exactly what I meant. I don't think there's a disconnect at all. You had to let go of the dream of what you wanted the relationship to be. Once you discovered that he'd lied to you, you took the steps necessary to protect yourself. You ended it. It wasn't easy, and I didn't mean to imply that it is. 

I've been in love with (mostly, thought that I was, in retrospect) men who weren't good for me. Only once did I stick around, and that was with the man who ultimately became my husband. Then again, he hadn't cheated on me and he didn't have any significant character flaws -- he just didn't want me as badly as I wanted him. I made a hugely ridiculous nuisance of a fool of myself, I begged him to take me back, wept copiously in his arms (which I always found a way to manipulate my way into), called him several times a day despite his insistence that I stop. I did everything wrong. I can't imply that I'm somehow above losing myself in someone that I loved. It was a mistake that I made in my youth, and it cost me. It is not something that I'd ever do again. 

What I was really saying is ... knowing that someone isn't good for you, knowing that he/she doesn't put you first (or second ... or third), knowing that he/she is a liar -- which is a very, very big deal, as it means you can't trust him/her -- at some point, and hopefully well before your soul is sucked from your body -- you should be walking away. If not, then the problem doesn't lie with the person who cheated/lied/misled, and it really does no good to question the motives of the cheater/liar when the focus should be on self, and why one would stay in a "relationship" that is clearly going nowhere.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 19, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> But Lilly, you're writing exactly what I meant. I don't think there's a disconnect at all. You had to let go of the dream of what you wanted the relationship to be. Once you discovered that he'd lied to you, you took the steps necessary to protect yourself. You ended it. It wasn't easy, and I didn't mean to imply that it is.
> 
> I've been in love with (mostly, thought that I was, in retrospect) men who weren't good for me. Only once did I stick around, and that was with the man who ultimately became my husband. Then again, he hadn't cheated on me and he didn't have any significant character flaws -- he just didn't want me as badly as I wanted him. I made a hugely ridiculous nuisance of a fool of myself, I begged him to take me back, wept copiously in his arms (which I always found a way to manipulate my way into), called him several times a day despite his insistence that I stop. I did everything wrong. I can't imply that I'm somehow above losing myself in someone that I loved. It was a mistake that I made in my youth, and it cost me. It is not something that I'd ever do again.
> 
> What I was really saying is ... knowing that someone isn't good for you, knowing that he/she doesn't put you first (or second ... or third), knowing that he/she is a liar -- which is a very, very big deal, as it means you can't trust him/her -- at some point, and hopefully well before your soul is sucked from your body -- you should be walking away. If not, then the problem doesn't lie with the person who cheated/lied/misled, and it really does no good to question the motives of the cheater/liar when the focus should be on self, and why one would stay in a "relationship" that is clearly going nowhere.



I wasn't so much disagreeing with you. My main point and something I personally find most embarassing about the whole thing is that I didnt break things off right away. I lingered along in this relationship knowing what he'd done and still I couldn't let go. I think this aspect of it was what infuriated me the most. I really felt that my emotions were manipulated in such a way that by the time I found out the truth it was too late, I was so in love with him that I couldn't even go with my better judgement and just leave. Though I knew that this was what needed to be done. It was humiliating for me to still be seeking him out knowing that I ultimately meant nothing to him at all. I think for the most part we all agree here, I was just giving another side as to why a person can't just push themselves away from the table and leave the moment deception is discovered. It's a common reason why many people stay in toxic relationships knowing full well that it's no good for them. It even happens to people who should know better.


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## Tracyarts (Oct 19, 2009)

" Misprepresnting your situation is not misrepresenting yourself. "

Sure it is. Your relationship status is a big part of who you are on a social and personal level. If you either tell somebody you are single, or allow them to believe you are single; when in fact you are not... you are misrepresenting yourself to them. And the longer you keep up the ruse, and the deeper they fall in love with you, the consequences of that misrepresentation grow more and more serious. 

Even if you separate what you do from who you are, that kind of thing is still a deception, and most people don't take being deceived all that lightly. Especially in matters of the heart. To them, the entire foundation of their relationship with you is a lie. And by being deceitful and dishonest, you are not the person they thought you were. And most people would be extremely hurt on finding out that the one they love is a liar and their entire relationship is built on a lie. Many would walk away without a second thought. Some would stay because they feel that what they get from the relationship is enough to make it worth accepting the truth. But their trust in you would be broken or at the very least seriously damaged.

Trust is one of those things that is usually hard to earn and easy to lose and even harder to earn back. If you lie about something so fundamental as your relationship status, then your partner will wonder what else you lied about, and wonder if you are lying to them for a very long time after that, if not for the rest of the life of the relationship.

Tracy


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 19, 2009)

I may have phrased that wrong.

I think where my head was on that is, if you connect with a person on certain levels, some of them may be practical. i.e. a shared interest or passion, similar backgrounds, maybe even having lived the same place during the same time. I recently got a call from a colleague I have not seen in more than ten years who wanted to share some goings on with one of his clients. The people involved in the project were old friends of his from his hometown where I'd once lived. The crux of connecting with me over it was "You're one of the few people who'd understand how crazy/funny this situation is because you know the characters and the locale." The "connection" had nothing to do with anything personal.

In the case of my personal relationship, you are right. The lying poisoned it on a practical level, but as Lilly said, you can't turn feelings on and off like a light switch once they have developed.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 21, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I wasn't so much disagreeing with you. * My main point and something I personally find most embarassing about the whole thing is that I didnt break things off right away. I lingered along in this relationship knowing what he'd done and still I couldn't let go. I think this aspect of it was what infuriated me the most. I really felt that my emotions were manipulated in such a way that by the time I found out the truth it was too late, I was so in love with him that I couldn't even go with my better judgement and just leave. Though I knew that this was what needed to be done. It was humiliating for me to still be seeking him out knowing that I ultimately meant nothing to him at all. * I think for the most part we all agree here, I was just giving another side as to why a person can't just push themselves away from the table and leave the moment deception is discovered. It's a common reason why many people stay in toxic relationships knowing full well that it's no good for them. It even happens to people who should know better.



This scares me most about myself.....it doesn't much matter what he does to me as long as he doesn't bring my children into it.....I let him do a LOT to me if he meets some type of requirement/need that I have. I feel NOTHING when he hurts me usually.....just act neurotic about it later when the pain and embarrassment manifest itself in some other passive aggressive form...that leaves me feeling like shit, out of control and as the "bad guy". 
It always has been something of a mystery to me how some people can so easily just cut the cord....wish I had that type of empowerment.
My logical mind doesn't always drive the boat.......


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 22, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> This scares me most about myself.....it doesn't much matter what he does to me as long as he doesn't bring my children into it.....I let him do a LOT to me if he meets some type of requirement/need that I have. I feel NOTHING when he hurts me usually.....just act neurotic about it later when the pain and embarrassment manifest itself in some other passive aggressive form...that leaves me feeling like shit, out of control and as the "bad guy".
> It always has been something of a mystery to me how some people can so easily just cut the cord....wish I had that type of empowerment.
> My logical mind doesn't always drive the boat.......



Speaking only for myself here, it really all boils down to a self esteem issue. It has been a time of reckoning for me of late because it occurs to me that I am constantly finding myself embroiled in toxic relationships with f*&ked up people. The reason for this is that I am constantly aware of my own imperfections and proclivaties. I've done things that I'm not proud of, made mistakes, said things that I probably shouldn't have. Once or twice I've made a poor decision and wound up on the wrong side of the story and couldn't make things right. When someone screws up I can immediately empathize and relate it to some fool thing I've done or felt before. In the end I wind up putting up with a lot more than what most others would or should in an awful circumstance. Any sane person would have stopped talking with them by now but I'm always eager to give the benefit of the doubt and try to preserve the things that were good about the relationship. It's turning out to be a filthy habit in some cases and I often find myself supporting the wrong people. 

Eventually there does come a time when enough is enough for me but I'm wondering now if those times are a bit too long in coming. This is a recurring scene and I'm always hell bent on being on good terms with absolutely everyone because I so despise drama and bad kharma. The stark lesson of life though may be that being on good terms with absolutely everyone just simply isn't possible. I'm a firm believer in the idea that if something keeps happening to you over and over it's not them, it's you - so I'm doing some soul searching right now. The sooner you can get rid of the dead weight in your life the sooner you can fill that space with something better and more worthy of who you've fought so hard to become.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 22, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Speaking only for myself here, it really all boils down to a self esteem issue. It has been a time of reckoning for me of late because it occurs to me that I am constantly finding myself embroiled in toxic relationships with f*&ked up people. The reason for this is that I am constantly aware of my own imperfections and proclivaties. I've done things that I'm not proud of, made mistakes, said things that I probably shouldn't have. Once or twice I've made a poor decision and wound up on the wrong side of the story and couldn't make things right. When someone screws up I can immediately empathize and relate it to some fool thing I've done or felt before. In the end I wind up putting up with a lot more than what most others would or should in an awful circumstance. Any sane person would have stopped talking with them by now but I'm always eager to give the benefit of the doubt and try to preserve the things that were good about the relationship. It's turning out to be a filthy habit in some cases and I often find myself supporting the wrong people.
> 
> Eventually there does come a time when enough is enough for me but I'm wondering now if those times are a bit too long in coming. This is a recurring scene and I'm always hell bent on being on good terms with absolutely everyone because I so despise drama and bad kharma. The stark lesson of life though may be that being on good terms with absolutely everyone just simply isn't possible. I'm a firm believer in the idea that if something keeps happening to you over and over it's not them, it's you - so I'm doing some soul searching right now. The sooner you can get rid of the dead weight in your life the sooner you can fill that space with something better and more worthy of who you've fought so hard to become.



Yep, yep, yep, yep and yep. You echoed my own thoughts and actions succinctly. 

It's this frustration with myself and my patterns that made me start the abandonment issue thread on the bbw board in the hope of finding out why I let this happen over and over....why I am so ATTRACTED to it.....it seems to be like a REQUIREMENT of any new lover/relationship. 

I will say on a positive note, that I have been feeling strong enough to claim "recovered" status on my addiction/eating disorder and find that setting boundaries and speaking up for myself has became much easier at some recent time this past year. I like that.....hoping that it starts spilling over into the "love affairs" too.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 22, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Yep, yep, yep, yep and yep. You echoed my own thoughts and actions succinctly.
> 
> It's this frustration with myself and my patterns that made me start the abandonment issue thread on the bbw board in the hope of finding out why I let this happen over and over....*why I am so ATTRACTED to it.....it seems to be like a REQUIREMENT of any new lover/relationship. *
> 
> I will say on a positive note, that I have been feeling strong enough to claim "recovered" status on my addiction/eating disorder and find that setting boundaries and speaking up for myself has became much easier at some recent time this past year. I like that.....hoping that it starts spilling over into the "love affairs" too.



I recite a version of the following schpiel to my younger sister all the time. It appears an apt time to apply it to myself and practice what I preach.  

_Often times we bring home these wounded birds because we relate to their weaknesses in some way. We see them in ourselves and they make us feel safe. The truth is, they are NOT like you. They are not self aware or interested in bettering themselves at all. All they want to do is leech off of what the world will give them for free, then draw back in horror when anyone espects them to assume any responsibility for their actions. Do not dumb yourself down by latching on to those clods and have enough belief in yourself to understand that you deserve friends who are uplifting, smart, responsible, accomplished, polished or whatever other attributes you find admirable yet intimidating in the good people around you. You have nothing in common with those clowns._​
It's a bit coursely worded but it's better than "Be the change you want to see in the world." I hate platitudes and that one is so open to misinterpretation that can make matters worse in my view.


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## katorade (Oct 22, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> This wasn't simply about finding someone attractive. This was someone I fell in love with. It took time for this to happen, it took time for it to un-happen which was the inevitable end. In the past I've readily been able to get rid of dead weight and dead beats without any problem but this relationship was different. If it's easy for you then you are to be envied. The ability to be that way in a circumstance such as mine is not a common gift.



What I meant by parts of them I find attractive is things like their beliefs and ideals, things that would attract me to a person beyond their outward appearance. I was head over heels in love with the guy that did it to me, but upon realizing that our foundation was all built on a lie, I was *done*. 

There are just things you do not do to me and expect me to ever talk to you again, and you'd be really lucky if I don't kick your ass. Turning me into the "other woman" is right up there with slapping my mother in the face.

I suppose that I am a bit different than most people, because in the past there are several people that have crossed lines that they knew I held firmly in place, and I never spoke to them afterwards. They were my best friends, too. Two of them lied directly to my face and two of them slandered me behind my back to cover up their own short-comings. One of them did both. I never spoke a word to them afterwards.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 22, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> I recite a version of the following schpiel to my younger sister all the time. It appears an apt time to apply it to myself and practice what I preach.
> 
> _Often times we bring home these wounded birds because we relate to their weaknesses in some way. We see them in ourselves and they make us feel safe. The truth is, they are NOT like you. They are not self aware or interested in bettering themselves at all. All they want to do is leech off of what the world will give them for free, then draw back in horror when anyone espects them to assume any responsibility for their actions. Do not dumb yourself down by latching on to those clods and have enough belief in yourself to understand that you deserve friends who are uplifting, smart, responsible, accomplished, polished or whatever other attributes you find admirable yet intimidating in the good people around you. You have nothing in common with those clowns._​
> It's a bit coursely worded but it's better than "Be the change you want to see in the world." I hate platitudes and that one is so open to misinterpretation that can make matters worse in my view.



Thank you so much for sharing that Lilly....I like that and will have to put it somewhere I can read it daily  :bow:



katorade said:


> What I meant by parts of them I find attractive is things like their beliefs and ideals, things that would attract me to a person beyond their outward appearance. * I was head over heels in love with the guy that did it to me, but upon realizing that our foundation was all built on a lie, I was *done*.
> *
> There are just things you do not do to me and expect me to ever talk to you again, and you'd be really lucky if I don't kick your ass. Turning me into the "other woman" is right up there with slapping my mother in the face.
> 
> I suppose that I am a bit different than most people, because in the past there are several people that have crossed lines that they knew I held firmly in place, and I never spoke to them afterwards. They were my best friends, too. Two of them lied directly to my face and two of them slandered me behind my back to cover up their own short-comings. One of them did both. I never spoke a word to them afterwards.



That part you mentioned about "done". It's funny to me because I know exactly what you meant when you wrote that word in that way.....because it was the only thing I said to my ex-husband and anyone that inquired why I was breaking up with him....."I'm done". (I had thoughts about taking a cattle prod to those that truly seemed mystified as to why I would leave that prince......:doh:  )
It was all that was left to say....all I wanted to say....and it was the summation of all the pain and exhaustion of a 14 year marriage to the "soul mate" or "love of my life". Nothing else much mattered anymore....I was drained and had nothing left but anger that I used to fuel myself out of that relationship.

Done....it's a wonderful thing to achieve. Just hate that it sometimes takes me so long to get there.......:doh:


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