# "It Gets Better" for fat kids



## butch (Sep 24, 2010)

So, I'm running late, getting ready for work, and as I brush my teeth, I'm thinking of Dan Savage's "It Gets Better" youtube video project, where GLTBQ people post videos telling GLBTQ youth that it will get better, to help prevent suicide.

I was debating whether I would want to particpate, since I did indeed have my own suicidal impulses when I was a teen. However, my feelings weren't about being bullied, or about being queer, specifically, but about being too 'different,' and recognizing that for me, my body size was more influential in my negative feelings about difference than my sexuality was. So, I wondered: 

Perhaps it is in bad tast to jump on Dan's project, but could we start a "It Gets Better" youtube project for fat youth? What do you all think?


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## Mishty (Sep 24, 2010)

butch said:


> Perhaps it is in bad tast to jump on Dan's project, but could we start a "It Gets Better" youtube project for fat youth? What do you all think?



Subscribed.


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## spiritangel (Sep 24, 2010)

I would be happy to take part keep getting told i should make more videos for youtube anyway you could run it simmilarly to how the dimms project is run or do it by creating a network of people (sorry no idea how you do that being new to youtube and all)

I think its an incredable Idea


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## butch (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the responses, Mishty and spiritangel. As with all my ideas, I'm not so good at implementation, as I don't own a camera and have no idea how youtube works. If I had gotten more of a response here, I would have been glad to at least figure out how to set up a network at youtube like you suggest, spiritangel, and find someone who could lend me a camera.

However, I gotta say it, I'm sad at the response of this thread. Perhaps that is my own ego speaking, I don't know, but I figured we're all so good at this site about pontificating about size acceptance, that something as 'easy' as filming a video would be an activist activity people would get behind. Either that, or sadly, too many people think it doesn't get better for fat kids.

Either way, it doesn't look like this will be happening. I'll just talk to my partner about doing a video for Dan Savage's project, where I'll slip in that it did indeed get better for this fat queer kid. If you're queer at all, then please consider contributing to that.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 25, 2010)

I think that 
1: if your idea is contingent upon response you get here, then that's a little sad, the big fat world is WAY wider than Dims. 
2: a chance to learn how things work (youtube for instance) should never be wasted (I have just learned about it myself over the last 4 days)
3: if you build it, they will come
4: it's hard for people to jump up and say, "yo, I'd be a GREAT role model for kids, let me risk this" 
5: start it, if it doesn't get more than 3 videos, then guess what: kids have 3 videos to cling to. 3 is still > than 0
6: I am only just now seeing this thread, so my lack of response until now has nothing to do with a lack of interest; it happens


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## butch (Sep 25, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> I think that
> 1: if your idea is contingent upon response you get here, then that's a little sad, the big fat world is WAY wider than Dims.
> 2: a chance to learn how things work (youtube for instance) should never be wasted (I have just learned about it myself over the last 4 days)
> 3: if you build it, they will come
> ...



Thanks for the response, Rebecca. All your points are valid, as is my dissapointment in the intial response. FWIW, I debated about whether I should mention my emotional response, but every other time I hope to see more activism outside of Dimensions cultivated here, it rarely happens, and I'm dissapointed, but I hold my tongue. This time, I didn't want to, because I am, personally, getting disengaged with the fat positive communtiy (here and elsewhere), and needed to vent a bit.

I figure if people can't at least post and say "great idea" or "bad idea" then I'm personally not interested in anothe Don Quixote like quest (but perhaps I should wait longer before I make this judgement, as you suggest). I've done enough of those on behalf of fat rights, and for once I'd like some more compadres.


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## ThatFatGirl (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm sorry, butch.. I read your original post and gave it serious thought. I can think of some positive things to say.. I would encourage them to ignore the meanies - they don't define you or who you are or who you can be, enjoy life, be as active as you can and don't ever slow down, and DON'T diet because it will only make you fatter.. This feels ultimately hypocritical for me because I didn't do any of that and grew fatter and fatter and life has actually been really difficult in a lot of ways. It didn't get better for me and I'm struggling with a number of fat related health issues. I think I'm not a good candidate for this project, unfortunately.


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## spiritangel (Sep 25, 2010)

I think if you did it as a linked network type of thing then more people can join in if they want to add stuff, and it has taken a while for the dimms youtube project to get going, I am not great at all the technical stuff at all though

just think that it could be something truly amazing


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## butch (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks ThatFatGirl and spiritangel. I think we all have a message to share with fat kids, even if we aren't 100% happy and content with our bodies they way they are. Part of growing up, for me, seems to be learning to accept, and value, the aspects of myself that aren't perfect and ideal. I mean, my life is nothing like I wanted it to be when I was 16, but I am very happy with it. 

Plus, I know one thing I really needed to hear when I was a kid (hell, when I was a young adult) was that yes, fat people, even fat people as big as I was/am, find loving partners who desire us inside and out. That was a message I did not get at home or out in society.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 25, 2010)

I think it's a good idea, but like Laura, I don't think I'd be a good candidate since things are getting worse for me; plus I don't know what to say... I also don't have a video camera.

Sorry.


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## butch (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback, MizzSnakeBite. I don't have a camera either, so I don't know how I'm going to film anything, but I'll figure it out.

I wish things weren't getting worse for you, ((((((((((Mizz)))))))))))))))


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks 

I think if you set-up a network or something on youtube, then people will submit videos. Possibly advertise the project on the Dims you-tube thread.

I would recommend that you review the videos before they're posted (if you're able to do that). I could easily see some jackass posting a fat-hating video just to be a jerk. Also, see if the comments could somehow by moderated, since there are so many jerks out there that would use the comments section to spew hate.


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## LovelyLiz (Sep 25, 2010)

Sorry for the late reply, Butch. I also read it and was mulling it over. I hear Dan Savage say that in his podcast to small town LGBTQ youth especially, saying that they will leave their small town and have a way more awesome life where they meet interesting people and do interesting things in the big city. 

I guess the thing is, while LGBTQ youth do have places they can go where their lives will be celebrated and accepted (West Hollywood, Castro, Chelsea, etc. - of course, these can be often more accepting of the LGB part of the acronym) there aren't really geographical areas where fat youth can go and be celebrated and accepted. There are non-geographical spaces (like internet forums like this, etc.) but that isn't really the same kind of thing.

So, I guess I'd be on board with it if it were something like busting some of the myths that young fat people may believe about their bodies or their futures, etc. Like that they will always hate the way they look, or never fall in love, or not be able to be active. But simply saying, "It gets better" for fat kids doesn't seem correct to me in the same way it seems correct for small town LGBTQ youth (again, particularly the LGB folks). Like Mizz points out, some things in the fat life can actually get worse over time.

I guess what I'm saying is that the language of "It Gets Better" doesn't ring true with me, on every level, about the fat life. But encouraging young fat people that they can be active, and feel beautiful, and enjoy their bodies is certainly something I can get behind. Maybe I'm being too nitpicky about the semantics! Probably so.


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## olwen (Sep 25, 2010)

OMG, butch that is an awesome idea!!! Setting up a youtube account is easy and you can record videos on your cellphone. I'd participate for sure.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 25, 2010)

see what I mean about people just not necessarily seeing the thread and having doubts?

If you build it, they will come.


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## CarlaSixx (Sep 25, 2010)

I first saw this thread when it was posted but had to think about it. I had to review my life and see if it really did get better or not before I came back to post.

In truth, yes, it did get better. But not without a fight.

I think it would be great for young ones to see there were others like them, and how things could be better, but those who choose to be role models can't act like it'll just one day be all rainbows and flowers. I think it's important to underline the struggle, but also to show that going against the stream will be worth it.


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## Brenda (Sep 25, 2010)

When I was a fat kid I was certain I would not be fat as an adult so I did not see my future self in fat adults. Talking with others who were fat kids over the years yielded many similar stories like mine. I remember my fat mother telling me in the most sincere, kind way don't let yourself get fat it has made my life so trouble filled and my immediate thought was of course I won't be fat, don't worry.

So while I can say it certainly does get better, a young kid looking at my fat face is not going to see herself in me.

Brenda


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## CastingPearls (Sep 25, 2010)

It did get better but more than anything, "I" got better.


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## olwen (Sep 25, 2010)

Brenda said:


> When I was a fat kid I was certain I would not be fat as an adult so I did not see my future self in fat adults. Talking with others who were fat kids over the years yielded many similar stories like mine. I remember my fat mother telling me in the most sincere, kind way don't let yourself get fat it has made my life so trouble filled and my immediate thought was of course I won't be fat, don't worry.
> 
> So while I can say it certainly does get better, a young kid looking at my fat face is not going to see herself in me.
> 
> Brenda



Hearing this actually surprises me. I was a fat kid too and I didn't think I was going to be a skinny adult and I'm not. The idea of that just really shocks me, so I'm sure there would also be fat kids who felt the same as me too.




I think some of the responses here are getting away from the point of the message, which for me is simply to tell kids to be strong and to remind them that they do have strength in them no matter what and that having strength to get thru whatever they face/will face as fat people is invaluable. They will spend their lives being told that they are worthless and that they don't even deserve to exist and it takes a lot of inner strength to not give in to such an institutionalized idea. Despite whatever social, mental, health challenges they are facing as fat kids, or will face as fat adults, just the idea that they are worth something, that they do deserve respect seems to me like it would go a long way and keeping that in mind _will _make living in fat bodies easier as they get older. 

Butch, if that isn't what you intended, then I certainly don't mean to put words in your mouth, but this is what I would say in a video.


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## Brenda (Sep 25, 2010)

I was replying to her wondering and sadness about the lack of replies.

While I am sure my experience is not the only one fat children had in regard to their imagined future selves I see the same attitude in my fat nieces and nephews. They think like I did that they will be thin when they are older. I have even asked them why they thought that and they all offered different reasons so maybe it is just wishful thinking or a sort of denial.

Brenda


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## Weeze (Sep 25, 2010)

Butch, I love love love this idea. My cousin is an only child and just entering high school, and recently had another girl throw cake at her telling her to lose weight. Both off the kid's parents are very tall/large framed, but have had her on diets for as long as *I* can remember, and I'm 6 years older. It's a shitty feeling, not being able to do anything but tell her to just make it though and it'll get better. It feels like it's not enough, but I think if you (we) could get a project/campaign of sorts, it might make a difference for *someone.* I'd love to help, no matter what you need.


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## superodalisque (Sep 26, 2010)

i think its a good idea. i wonder about how its put though. maybe they could call it something else? i know this will probably piss people off but...i'm not trying to be critical but its a real concern to me in terms of the statement "it will get better". a) i find it a little unsettling because it assumes things must be bad for fat children. b)also what about making things good for them right now? in my experience kids find it hard to relate to someday very well. what about surviving the tough times right now?

i'm not sure that a fat childhood has to be or is a period of fat suffering for all fat kids. acting like its a given is a problem. sometimes not accepting a prejudice as viable in your own mind goes a long way to not giving it any power over your life. it might be better if we can just help all kids early with their attitudes toward their own bodies instead f singling out fat kids with a misery index? 

i'm also not sure but fat adults or adults who were fat as kids may be out of touch with a new fat reality since a whole lot more kids now than when we were young. its almost a different world in certain ways. since fat kids aren't so rare anymore maybe there is more camaraderie than there was for us. maybe we have to be careful about introducing negative ideas or expectations based on what might be our own personal experiences? i wouldn't want kids feeling they should be down for being fat or looking around for evidence of how they are the down trodden fat person all of the time.


i have to say that i was a pretty happy fat kid. i didn't get teased very much at all. people hardly mentioned my weight except for at home. i know how i felt when my family seemed to worry about stuff that wasn't a reality for me. if i had a different temperament maybe i would have ended up believing what they thought and feeling depressed instead of looking at the reality around me. i had good friends, lots of interests and had a good time. i worry that thinking everyone will be teased mercilessly is promoting a negative expectation in some way and wil rain on some parades. i'm also not sure if fat children suffer the same level of prejudice as children do in the GLBTQ community. i worry that equating the two could be a problem because i personally feel that GLBTQ suffer from a harsher level of persecution and equating the two things is sort of out of whack for both communities.

i know there are a lot of fat kids out there suffering still. thats why we need to be sure anything we put out there for them is as positive as possible. they have enough negative to deal with. they need alternatives.


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## TraciJo67 (Sep 26, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> i'm not sure that a fat childhood has to be or is a period of fat suffering if we can help kids early with their attitudes toward their own bodies. i'm also not sure but fat adults may be out of touch with a new fat reality for kids since a whole lot more kids are fat as children now than when we were--thats from my perspective at 48.


 
My nieces are still picked on.

There's also a thread here about someone's 6-year-old child being bullied and picked on.

I wish this were true, SuperO, but I don't think so. 

Butch, I think that this is an awesome idea.


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## superodalisque (Sep 26, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> My nieces are still picked on.
> 
> There's also a thread here about someone's 6-year-old child being bullied and picked on.
> 
> ...



in know kids are picked on. i'm well aware.i mentor some kids who have been. i worry about making the assumption that it will always happen and it has to be common. i was not picked on by peers. i know plenty of other people who weren't. why not have the same support without the assumption that a fat kid's life MUST be a misery. i worry about having a depressive tendency in fat culture and how it adds to the idea that being fat is a horrible way to go. i love the idea but i think the wording needs to be thought out some more--only a suggestion.


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## olwen (Sep 26, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> i think its a good idea. i wonder about how its put though. maybe they could call it something else? i know this will probably piss people off but...i'm not trying to be critical but its a real concern to me in terms of the statement "it will get better". a) i find it a little unsettling because it assumes things must be bad for fat children. b)also what about making things good for them right now? in my experience kids find it hard to relate to someday very well. what about surviving the tough times right now?
> 
> i'm not sure that a fat childhood has to be or is a period of fat suffering for all fat kids. acting like its a given is a problem. sometimes not accepting a prejudice as viable in your own mind goes a long way to not giving it any power over your life. it might be better if we can just help all kids early with their attitudes toward their own bodies instead f singling out fat kids with a misery index?
> 
> ...



You're right, I'm pissed off. Are you kidding me with this? You know perfectly well that physical bullying isn't the only issue that would make being fat difficult for a kid regardless of how many fat kids there are now. There is pressure from all sides to be thin and for them to be ashamed of their bodies. This wouldn't be about queer kids, it would be about fat ones. Get it? 

This is a great idea and if it helps even one kid cope and oh say, not develop an eating disorder or any other self-destructive tendencies then I'd say that was a good thing. Obviously if there is a fat kid who isn't having a hard time then they don't need the message, but maybe they know one who does and can say here, come check this out. 

Sorry none of us had the well adjusted wonderful puppies and rainbows experience you had as a kid, and I'm sick of your insistence that fat people ought to behave the way you think we should. Stop acting like your experiences are the only valid ones. Why do you have to come in here and "say the thing that needs to be said" when the thing you think needs to be said is the most out of touch and inappropriate thing ever? Geez.

It's a good idea.


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## CastingPearls (Sep 26, 2010)

It is a wonderful idea and if it helps only one child it will be a success.


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## joswitch (Sep 26, 2010)

butch said:


> So, I'm running late, getting ready for work, and as I brush my teeth, I'm thinking of Dan Savage's "It Gets Better" youtube video project, where GLTBQ people post videos telling GLBTQ youth that it will get better, to help prevent suicide.
> 
> I was debating whether I would want to particpate, since I did indeed have my own suicidal impulses when I was a teen. However, my feelings weren't about being bullied, or about being queer, specifically, but about being too 'different,' and recognizing that for me, my body size was more influential in my negative feelings about difference than my sexuality was. So, I wondered:
> 
> Perhaps it is in bad tast to jump on Dan's project, but could we start a "It Gets Better" youtube project for fat youth? What do you all think?



I thought Dan's was a great idea, and I think your take on it is excellent too... (not that I'm in a position to participate in either, but Yay! nonetheless)


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## bigmac (Sep 26, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> Sorry for the late reply, Butch. I also read it and was mulling it over. I hear Dan Savage say that in his podcast to small town LGBTQ youth especially, saying that they will leave their small town and have a way more awesome life where they meet interesting people and do interesting things in the big city.
> 
> I guess the thing is, while LGBTQ youth do have places they can go where their lives will be celebrated and accepted (West Hollywood, Castro, Chelsea, etc. - of course, these can be often more accepting of the LGB part of the acronym) there aren't really geographical areas where fat youth can go and be celebrated and accepted. There are non-geographical spaces (like internet forums like this, etc.) but that isn't really the same kind of thing.
> 
> ....



Actually I have noticed that geographically some locations are more fat friendly. The Pacific Northwest (Portland-Seattle area) seems to be the most accepting.


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## superodalisque (Sep 26, 2010)

olwen said:


> You're right, I'm pissed off. Are you kidding me with this? You know perfectly well that physical bullying isn't the only issue that would make being fat difficult for a kid regardless of how many fat kids there are now. There is pressure from all sides to be thin and for them to be ashamed of their bodies. This wouldn't be about queer kids, it would be about fat ones. Get it?
> 
> This is a great idea and if it helps even one kid cope and oh say, not develop an eating disorder or any other self-destructive tendencies then I'd say that was a good thing. Obviously if there is a fat kid who isn't having a hard time then they don't need the message, but maybe they know one who does and can say here, come check this out.
> 
> ...



sorry you feel that way. i never said my experience was the only valid one just MY experience. if you don't accept it as a valid one thats fine but its mine and i won't hide it or pretend it was something it wasn't to fit your expectations or approval. if you expect anyone to believe that all fat people have the exact same experience in life i think that is unrealistic and dismissive of fat people's variety and individuality. 

i never mentioned physical bullying at all. thats your take on it and maybe bringing an experience to the table--i don't know. if it is thats an example of what i'm talking about of taking children somewhere they may not need to go. adults are always putting their angst onto children sometimes when its doesn't belong in their world and going even further than is needed. i once read about a study where it showed that kids who were exposed to talking about bullying were more apt to be inspired to bully than trying to stop it. better to be the bully than the bullied. all of the good intentioned counseling aimed at bullying seems to have done just the opposite. it has increased rather than decreased in the schools. talking about suicide too much with children sometimes leads to more suicide attempts. we don't need to stop trying but we do need to be very careful about what we say to children and how we say it.

my childhood was not all puppies and rainbows but whatever issues i did have had little to nothing to do with being fat. being fat was not the root of the problems i had to deal with. i hazard to guess there are some people like me. i'm sure i'm not the only fat person who had much bigger fish to fry than maybe some societal or public disapproval. i grew up in the southeast and fat was not necessarily looked on as the most horrible unusual and freaky thing a person could be. believe it or not for some people its almost as innocuous as being tall. i'm not sure acting like being fat is so negative with children who also may not have that experience and giving the media and misguided people so much importance in any child's life does so much to strengthen them as it does prime them to be overly sensitive to criticism and more open to abuse that they don't deserve and wouldn't/shouldn't give credence to ordinarily. children never know something is "wrong" with them until someone tells them it is. should the people who are supposedly be the ones supporting them be underscoring that something is "wrong" with being fat.

i think its great to get together to give fat children strength and help them to stand up for themselves and be proud of themselves, but we just have to be careful we don't wear their strength away and frighten them out of getting as much pleasure they can out of their childhood. i don't expect everyone to think like me. but i don't expect that i have to think like you either. you have your opinion and i have mine. i just personally think its better to get fat kids together meeting potential friends having a good time in a positive environment so that becomes a habit instead of being alone morose and fixating on what some think is wrong with them. 

PS: i never said it was a bad idea just that we need to be careful of certain tendencies adults have to plant seeds that aren't always positive even when they are intended to be. i think the idea of waiting to be an adult to be happy with yourself, if ever, is a problem. for some children that can seem like a day that may never come. IMO happiness is a choice and a habit. i just think we need to be careful to make sure we're helping them to practice how to be happy and not giving them exercises in misery.


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## Fox (Sep 27, 2010)

That's great! This video must happen!


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## Weeze (Sep 27, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> i'm also not sure if fat children suffer the same level of prejudice as children do in the GLBTQ community. i worry that equating the two could be a problem because i personally feel that GLBTQ suffer from a harsher level of persecution and equating the two things is sort of out of whack for both communities.
> .



I'm one of the people that's had to deal with both, and honestly they both hurt pretty much equally. I had kids throwing things at me yelling Dyke before I ever even admitted to liking women... but I was also mooed at when my hips bumped the side of the bus seats as I was walking up the aisle to get out. Both of 'em make you cry pretty much equally.


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## CastingPearls (Sep 27, 2010)

How does one measure suffering to make it appropriately valid?


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## Ample Pie (Sep 27, 2010)

I got teased WAY more for being fat than for being gender-fucked.

They both hurt a lot, but I knew the science behind ant-LGBTIQ stuff was crap--the "reasons" behind it were prejudice and idiocy. 

The fat stuff, that's harder to say "oh, that's just someone else's idiocy" about and move on from, to be honest. 

Also, no cool rainbow-y flags and parades for fatties when I was a kid.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Sep 27, 2010)

I just saw this, Julia. I don't know if I will have the guts to participate... but I'll support it any way I can.  I think it's a great idea.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Sep 27, 2010)

Oh, also -- the reason I didn't read this thread before is that I thought from the title it would be a news piece about a study saying fat kids don't have it as bad as they used to... and I knew I was going to think that was total BS and it was going to make me mad, so I avoided the thread for a while. lol!


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## Ample Pie (Sep 27, 2010)

Rebecca said:


> I got teased WAY more for being fat than for being gender-fucked.
> 
> They both hurt a lot, but I knew the science behind ant-LGBTIQ stuff was crap--the "reasons" behind it were prejudice and idiocy.
> 
> ...



Besides, helping one group of kids isn't the same as failing to help another. 

Lastly, because I was teased mercilessly as a fat kid and because the method most used to tease me was to pick some poor random person and say to them "you're going to marry Becky" or "you love Becky" and for that person to freak out and say "Ew, not I'm not" or "Gross" or whatever, I never felt like I _had _a sexuality. I never felt I was entitled to one or to love or be loved. So, in the end, it didn't matter what my orientation was, I never felt I was supposed to be a sexual being--fat people are funny and tough, they are not sexy, they are not lovable. That's the message I got.


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## HayleeRose (Sep 27, 2010)

I think this is a great idea, if/when i get a camera i would love participate. i have never made a youtube video though, so i dont know much about how it all works.


Also, i dont think we need to compare the struggle between the LGBTQ community and the fat community to validate this video project. They are seprate issues. As a fat girl who just came out of the school system, i can say that teasing is a VERY big problem for fat kids, just because there is more of us doesnt mean society stopped picking on us. If anything i think it is worse because of the media input.


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## butch (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback, all. I am now going to find out how to set up a channel on youtube for this, and if anyone has a good name for it, let me know, since I don't want to use Dan's title. I don't know when I'll be able to get my hands on a video camera, so if someone is interested and able to make a video, please do, and I'll post more info when I get the youtube channel set up. Perhaps those folks who are going to be at the NJ Bash, if you're interested, we could arrange something there (presuming someone would want to volunteer to film folks).

I think it is important to note that there never is one universal experience for any group of people. Just like plenty of GLBTQ teens today don't need a "It Gets Better" video, plenty of fat kids don't, either. I also find it sort of difficult to implant a negative feeling in a fat teen that wasn't already there when everything around them, from the First Lady to "The Biggest Loser" to their schools, are telling them fat is bad and they need to lose weight. When that need to lose weight bumps up against the statistic that 95% of diets don't work, what message do those kids need to hear? Maybe it isn't "It Gets Better" but it sure is "You're a person of value and worth, no matter what your size is."

Considering that depression is another condition that is associated with fatness, my guess is I am by far not the only person who would benefit by a world with more, not less, positive messages about living life as a fat person. From the results here, and in my conversations in real life with fat people, it seems that nobody, of any age, has had a mostly fat positive upbringing, so count yourself very very very lucky, SuperO.

Also, although this may be off topic. I'd have to disagree with you, McBeth, about their not being places fat people can move to for a more positive fat life. I know of a few places that have small pockets of fat community on a regular basis, and besides Portland, OR, there is San Francisco, Boston, New York. These are places with monthly or weekly dances and events, strong concentrations of fat activists, and resoruces for community building. I'm contemplating a move to one of those cities in part because they offer a queer positive space as well as a fat community that does not exist in my large metropolitan community. Ask Ashley and Soup, or Aris, for example, about how they feel about fat community in the places they live now, versus the places they moved from.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 27, 2010)

butch said:


> Thanks for the feedback, all. I am now going to find out how to set up a channel on youtube for this, and if anyone has a good name for it, let me know, since I don't want to use Dan's title. I don't know when I'll be able to get my hands on a video camera, so if someone is interested and able to make a video, please do, and I'll post more info when I get the youtube channel set up. Perhaps those folks who are going to be at the NJ Bash, if you're interested, we could arrange something there (presuming someone would want to volunteer to film folks).
> 
> I think it is important to note that there never is one universal experience for any group of people. Just like plenty of GLBTQ teens today don't need a "It Gets Better" video, plenty of fat kids don't, either. I also find it sort of difficult to implant a negative feeling in a fat teen that wasn't already there when everything around them, from the First Lady to "The Biggest Loser" to their schools, are telling them fat is bad and they need to lose weight. When that need to lose weight bumps up against the statistic that 95% of diets don't work, what message do those kids need to hear? Maybe it isn't "It Gets Better" but it sure is "You're a person of value and worth, no matter what your size is."
> 
> ...



For a name, maybe "You're Worth It!"? That's the first thing I could think of off the top of my head. I'll let you know if I think of anything else.


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## butch (Sep 27, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> For a name, maybe "You're Worth It!"? That's the first thing I could think of off the top of my head. I'll let you know if I think of anything else.



That is a great suggestion, MizzSnakeBite! Thank you so much. :bow:


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## MizzSnakeBite (Sep 27, 2010)

butch said:


> That is a great suggestion, MizzSnakeBite! Thank you so much. :bow:



You're very welcome


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## spiritangel (Sep 27, 2010)

I think devis suggestion is an awesome name to call the channel


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## LovelyLiz (Sep 27, 2010)

butch said:


> (snipped) Also, although this may be off topic. I'd have to disagree with you, McBeth, about their not being places fat people can move to for a more positive fat life. I know of a few places that have small pockets of fat community on a regular basis, and besides Portland, OR, there is San Francisco, Boston, New York. These are places with monthly or weekly dances and events, strong concentrations of fat activists, and resoruces for community building. I'm contemplating a move to one of those cities in part because they offer a queer positive space as well as a fat community that does not exist in my large metropolitan community. Ask Ashley and Soup, or Aris, for example, about how they feel about fat community in the places they live now, versus the places they moved from.



That's fair enough. I still think there's a difference between a group of people that meet for support or live together or have regular events, and a specific part of the city dedicated to a particular group as a group - where everyone understands that that's the part of town where X people go to hang out and enjoy their culture and celebrate who they are. But that's a good point that in other cities (like SF, as I've heard) there are much more active fat communities. But I do agree that some places are fat friendlier and with more fat camaraderie. 

To keep this on topic, I think that's really something worth showing kids in this project. I.E., some of these groups of people in places that are fat-friendlier and where people have been able to find some solidarity and at-homeness.


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## musicman (Sep 27, 2010)

butch said:


> I also find it sort of difficult to implant a negative feeling in a fat teen that wasn't already there when everything around them, from the First Lady to "The Biggest Loser" to their schools, are telling them fat is bad and they need to lose weight.



This. We need every voice we can get, just to BEGIN to counteract the body hate and poison that continuously spews from the multi-billion dollar diet/WLS industry. That is what this project can accomplish, and I urge everyone to contribute if they can. And if there are, as SuperO claims, a few "happy fat kids" like her that are somehow oblivious to the industry's poisonous messages, then so what? I'm glad for them, but they are statistical anomalies, and they are NOT the people we need to reach. (Duh, I'd think that would be obvious.)


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## olwen (Sep 27, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> sorry you feel that way. i never said my experience was the only valid one just MY experience. if you don't accept it as a valid one thats fine but its mine and i won't hide it or pretend it was something it wasn't to fit your expectations or approval. if you expect anyone to believe that all fat people have the exact same experience in life i think that is unrealistic and dismissive of fat people's variety and individuality.
> 
> i never mentioned physical bullying at all. thats your take on it and maybe bringing an experience to the table--i don't know. if it is thats an example of what i'm talking about of taking children somewhere they may not need to go. adults are always putting their angst onto children sometimes when its doesn't belong in their world and going even further than is needed. i once read about a study where it showed that kids who were exposed to talking about bullying were more apt to be inspired to bully than trying to stop it. better to be the bully than the bullied. all of the good intentioned counseling aimed at bullying seems to have done just the opposite. it has increased rather than decreased in the schools. talking about suicide too much with children sometimes leads to more suicide attempts. we don't need to stop trying but we do need to be very careful about what we say to children and how we say it.
> 
> ...



You are missing the point entirely. The point of the project is to speak to the kids who _already_ experience bad things because they are fat. Their innocence is already starting to leave them. How would reminding them that life might not always be shitty possibly make them more "morose" and angry than they already are???


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## olwen (Sep 27, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> For a name, maybe "You're Worth It!"? That's the first thing I could think of off the top of my head. I'll let you know if I think of anything else.



I second this!


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## LovelyLiz (Sep 27, 2010)

olwen said:


> I second this!



I like it too.  Nicely done, Mizz.


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## spiritangel (Sep 27, 2010)

I had another idea but I still think devis is better

there's light 

as in there is light even through the darkness of your experience and at the end of the tunnel


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## BigBeautifulMe (Sep 27, 2010)

Devi's is good.  But I don't know if you guys have the same L'Oreal ads we do here.. their slogan is "Because you're worth it!" lol. I couldn't see that and not think about L'Oreal and hair dying. 

I like the light idea.. maybe we can keep brainstorming on that.


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## superodalisque (Sep 28, 2010)

olwen said:


> You are missing the point entirely. The point of the project is to speak to the kids who _already_ experience bad things because they are fat. Their innocence is already starting to leave them. How would reminding them that life might not always be shitty possibly make them more "morose" and angry than they already are???



but, how do you pinpoint kids on youtube who are already having issues? what about pinpointing all fat kids in a positive way and then having ways of addressing the issues of those having problems? that way no assumptions are made and children still get helped--just a suggestion.
i love all of the positive suggestions for what to call it. i think that will make a huge difference in how its received in kids minds.

my throw at a title: "Its Good"


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## CastingPearls (Sep 28, 2010)

It's good? NO...it's not always good. It doesn't always stay good either. 

'You're Worth It' and 'It Get's Better' speaks to the almost universal confusion kids experience about their body image, their place in the world and how to deal.

And of the vast majority of us who have experienced difficulty as fat kids, some of us will be reaching out to the vast majority of interested kids who ARE experiencing it themselves or already are seeing the writing on the wall. Obviously the fat kids living in a bubble with cupcakes and unicorns won't need the message--so what? Do we scrap it? Or better yet--dilute it to such a homogenized shadow if its original mission so as not to offend or mislead that it appeals to no one? To assume that kids are going to walk away feeling worse dismisses the entire purpose of the project. Either help brainstorm or STFU.

I don't have a video cam or camcorder but want to get involved.


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## Mishty (Sep 28, 2010)

As someone in the school system I think this would just be incredible. 
I see girls and boys that struggle every day with the taunting at home, in class and in life in general. I try my damnedest to try to stop if it's in my ability but I can't go home where the parents are tossing around the negative shit. I would SO be all for this.....


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## Gingembre (Sep 28, 2010)

I think it's a good idea, and I did when I first read the thread a few days ago. I don't feel I can participate though as, for me, I don't think they have got better necessarily. I wasn't really teased for being fat at school...sometimes I got yelled at in the street and sometimes I do now. It doesn't sting any less. I was always aware that i was the fat one, but i care about clothes not fitting me more now...also, it could be my age (24) but i think i care more about how other people see me now than i did when i was younger. So i'm not convinced things have improved. 

Your topic has certainly made me think though, Julia. Things are on a bit of a downer here at the moment generally, so i'm pretty sure that's why my response sounds more negative than I thought it would when i started writing. Perhaps the videos may help me also.


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## olwen (Sep 28, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> but, how do you pinpoint kids on youtube who are already having issues? what about pinpointing all fat kids in a positive way and then having ways of addressing the issues of those having problems? that way no assumptions are made and children still get helped--just a suggestion.
> i love all of the positive suggestions for what to call it. i think that will make a huge difference in how its received in kids minds.
> 
> my throw at a title: "Its Good"



That goes beyond the scope of a youtube project.


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## superodalisque (Oct 1, 2010)

olwen said:


> That goes beyond the scope of a youtube project.



exactly. so maybe other things should go with it? is the other project just a youtube project or is it also a part of outreach?


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## olwen (Oct 1, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> exactly. so maybe other things should go with it? is the other project just a youtube project or is it also a part of outreach?



If it doesn't work for you then come up with some other solution. Just because it isn't as broad as you think it should be doesn't mean it won't be useful.


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## superodalisque (Oct 2, 2010)

olwen said:


> If it doesn't work for you then come up with some other solution. Just because it isn't as broad as you think it should be doesn't mean it won't be useful.



its not a matter of it working for me or not but working for fat kids. is there any outreach associated with the other program? i went to look up the information about the guy who started the youtube project and it looks like he has a lot of other things he's involved with as well to support it. 

my only solution is that i do work here in my local area. maybe we could encourage people to have more local face to face groups. youtube would be a great place to encourage that as well.


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## olwen (Oct 3, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> its not a matter of it working for me or not but working for fat kids. is there any outreach associated with the other program? i went to look up the information about the guy who started the youtube project and it looks like he has a lot of other things he's involved with as well to support it.
> 
> my only solution is that i do work here in my local area. maybe we could encourage people to have more local face to face groups. youtube would be a great place to encourage that as well.



Hon, as long as you are coming up with a solution and implementing that instead of criticizing then that's great. Do it and let us know how your local group goes.


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## superodalisque (Oct 3, 2010)

olwen said:


> Hon, as long as you are coming up with a solution and implementing that instead of criticizing then that's great. Do it and let us know how your local group goes.



its been going great for over 4 yrs now. thanks


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## thirtiesgirl (Oct 5, 2010)

Lesley from the Fatshionista blog posted her "It Gets Better" video here. The general topic is bullying, but I think her message can apply to anyone.


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## superodalisque (Oct 7, 2010)

seen today int The Atlantic


The Atlantic Home
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 7, 2010


SADY DOYLE - Sady Doyle is a freelance writer based in New York City. She blogs at Tiger Beatdown.


Does 'It Gets Better' Make Life Better for Gay Teens?
OCT 7 2010, 8:00 AM ET 3

At first glance, it seems impossible that any reasonable person could have a problem with the It Gets Better project. The outreach campaign, started by writer Dan Savage, is a wonderful thing; it's a series of brief, personal messages for GLBT teens who are considering suicide, assuring them that life is worth living. 




Because it's on the Internet, anyone can access these messages, or upload one; because it's associated with several well-known names (actress Anne Hathaway, singer Ke$ha, and Project Runway's Tim Gunn, to name a few) it's likely to get attention and reach more teens in crisis. And in many ways, "It Gets Better" operates in the same way that decent abuse counseling does: It identifies what is happening to these children as wrong, it tells them that they don't deserve it and that it's not their fault, and it gives them permission to actually perceive themselves as victims of sustained cruelty, rather than special, faulty, unlovable freaks who bring bad treatment on themselves by virtue of existing. For people who've been abused, these aren't just compassionate platitudes, they're necessary tools for survival. The question, however, is whether these tools alone are enough. 

Can telling teens who are considering suicide that "it gets better" actually help them deal with their present realities? In some cases, yes. Even the possibility of a better future can be enough to get some people through the day. And when it comes to people who are suicidal, it often seems that "it gets better" is the only possible response to what they're feeling. No one actually knows if things are going to get better; nobody can see the future. But it's important to believe that they will, because it might be the only coping mechanism for dealing with otherwise unbearable pain. If every day is terrible, and worse than the day that came before it, the only thing to do is to hold out for the "better" one. To act as if it's around the corner, somewhere, eventually. 

However, if we keep telling suicidal people that their situation will "get better" without actually taking any steps to improve itif we don't provide support and medical care for people with depression; if we don't help people who are being abused to find a safe place; if we don't make sure that the systematic, community-wide abuse of GLBT youth is eliminatedthen belief alone can wear thin. And this seems to be one of the main contentions of Savage's critics. 

"There is actually no path to change in this vision," alleges blogger Zoe Melisa, in a post from her personal blog which was re-published at Queerwatch. "Promoting the illusion that things just 'get better,' enables privileged folks to do nothing and just rely on the imaginary mechanics of the American Dream to fix the world." 

Melisa's post presents a long list of criticisms, and you probably won't agree with every single one. But others have noted that privilege does play a large and unspoken role in many of the project's narratives; especially for GLBT folks who are also facing other forms of oppression, leaving their home towns and entering an accepting GLBT community may be much harder and more complicated than it looks. 

"The gay community's problems surrounding race and gender became abundantly evident to me as queer men of color, especially feminine queer men of color get pushed to the fringes of gay life," writes Queeriously, of the Below the Belt, in his own critique. "The gay promise failed me. I went from being ostracized by my straight classmates in high school to being ostracized by many white gay men in an urban gay enclave." 

Obviously, the It Gets Better project is good, and worthwhile, and necessary. And obviously, it's better for the world to have any version of it than no version at all. Savage himself took note of "the odd bitchy e-mail" in a blog post, and made a point of reminding his critics that "there's nothing about this projectnothing about participating in this projectthat prevents people from doing more." In an e-mail conversation, my Tiger Beatdown co-blogger Garland Grey characterized many of the critics as "the type of people who complain about every problematic thing that exists in the world as if they were all equally offensive;" although the campaign might not address the structural problems that make life as an adult harder for GLBT people, he said, "I think it is important those queer kids grow up to be adults." 

Of course. But some critics are not only spotlighting potential problems; they're creating their own solutions. Take, for example, the We Got Your Back Project. Like It Gets Better, it encourages GLBT folks to share their stories of hardship, and to offer messages of hope and support. But its goals, according to its mission statement, explicitly include "starting conversations about the importance of inclusion within our community," addressing "biphobia, transphobia, and racism," and "mobilizing the LGBTQIA community in support of anti-bullying and anti-violence legislation." 

"We want to make sure everyone's voice is heard," reads the website. "This is not an effort to compete with the 'It Gets Better Project' but to supplement it."

It remains to be seen how effective it will be; obviously, We Got Your Back doesn't have the platform or the connections of It Gets Better. But then, many organized smaller groups, focused on local and direct action, could actually provide more immediate support to struggling queer youth than one large national campaign. And creating change from scratcheven if you don't have connections or a high profile, even if you're just one person with a blog or a few friends deciding to create an outreach project because it's the kind of project you want to seeis an essential part of activism. 

And, as It Gets Better picks up steam, more contributors are providing resources for teens in crisis. Two of the more recent and star-studded PSAs were uploaded by the Trevor Project, a suicide prevention hotline specifically for GLBT youth. The Trevor Project also provides a safe, moderated message board on which isolated queer teens can reach out to one another. All of this is commendable. It does get better, for some people, some of the time. And sometimes, it even gets better all on its own. But things are far more likely to improve for children in crisis if someone makes things better; if change isn't just something for those bullied teens to look forward to, but something that all of us have the responsibility to create.


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## LovelyLiz (Oct 7, 2010)

I also listened to Tim Gunn's reply on facebook. I thought it was great.

Something similar for fat kids who need it would really be a great thing.


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## spiritangel (Oct 8, 2010)

i think knowing you are not alone in what your going through is powerful

as are the steps you have taken to get you to your path of self acceptance 

mayby the road ahead or some such for a title

and tim gunn is an amazing man as are the people sharing their stories for the it gets better project


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## butch (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry I've been away from this thread. I've got way too much work going on right now, plus a bit of travel, and haven't been able to get a youtube channel up and running.

However, I have been thinking about ways to make bullying of fat kids/teens more of a project of mine than setting up videos. I'm wondering about creating some sort of non-profit that focuses bullying of fat kids/teens, since I've not come accross any organization that focuses on making schools and other places safe spaces for fat kids.

If anyone has ideas or thoughts about this, or knows of resources and/or people and/or organizations addressing the issue of bullying of fat kids/teens, please let me know. Thanks!


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## MizzSnakeBite (Oct 9, 2010)

butch said:


> Sorry I've been away from this thread. I've got way too much work going on right now, plus a bit of travel, and haven't been able to get a youtube channel up and running.
> 
> However, I have been thinking about ways to make bullying of fat kids/teens more of a project of mine than setting up videos. I'm wondering about creating some sort of non-profit that focuses bullying of fat kids/teens, since I've not come accross any organization that focuses on making schools and other places safe spaces for fat kids.
> 
> If anyone has ideas or thoughts about this, or knows of resources and/or people and/or organizations addressing the issue of bullying of fat kids/teens, please let me know. Thanks!



I wonder if a good organization to contact would be The United Way? Maybe they could direct you to some resources, and give you some advice on how to start things up.


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