# What is feminine?



## olwen (May 2, 2008)

This may seem like a question with an obvious answer, but I can assure anyone who thinks this, that this can't be further from the truth for me. I think about this stuff a lot. I can imagine what a person who prefers thin women would think about what feminine is, but I just have to wonder if those constructs hold true for fat women. I'm not sure either if what I'm asking is about sexiness or just womanliness if that makes sense, so that's part of the reason why I feel the need to ask. So everyone (and I do mean everyone), what do you find feminine?


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## SocialbFly (May 2, 2008)

wow, great question Olwen!

i would have to think about what my physical idea of feminine is, which in the least is curvy for sure...

but to me when i think of feminine i think of empathy, nurturing those types of things...(not that men can't be that as well)

but it is not something i have ever thought of, i guess i need more time to give a better answer...

great thought provoker...


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## olwen (May 2, 2008)

Yeah, it's tough. I've been trying to wrap my brain around it for a while now. I've just been trying to really deconstruct femininity in a way that makes sense to me as a fat woman _and _a black woman, but I just come up with more questions. It's kinda maddening.

Please, lemmie know what you come up with.


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## Fascinita (May 2, 2008)

I'm always asking people what their idea of feminine is. Although I have some very obvious feminine attributes--the flowing hair, the salient boobs--and though I love to "dress like a girl"--the sexy shoes, the cleavage-enhancing tops, the vampy lipstick--in many ways my femininity has been questioned in that past, probably because I have what might be considered a "masculine" character by many. That is, I'm direct, I've always been ambitious and have gone after what I've wanted, I'm assertive when I have to be, etc.

On the other hand, why is directness "masculine"? Why is ambition "masculine"? Why is asserting one's ideas "masculine?

So I'm always very curious about what it is that makes something traditionally feminine or masculine. To a large extent--though not entirely--I think these gendered concepts are social constructs.

I will say that I do believe there are certain traits that women are more likely to have, and viceversa for men. For instance, I think that women in general are more caring about others, and that women have a keener understanding of the physical cycles of life.

I find that most men are more competitive, in general. And, in general, that competitiveness seems to be fueled by a healthy sense of their own importance


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## olwen (May 2, 2008)

Oh Fascinita all that goes without saying. It just seems reductive for our non physical characteristics to be classified as masculine or feminine. But there has to be more to this, you know?


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## Dr. P Marshall (May 2, 2008)

I find this a really interesting topic, but coming from Olwen that's not surprising. As an FFA with a smaller and athletic build, this is something that I have thought about to one degree or another. I think for me, I divide things out a bit like so: A person's gender makes them male or female to me. Their overall appearance (how they dress, hair, etc) makes the overall impression masculine or feminine, but the actual traits themselves I think can go to either gender even if I split them out as a masculine and feminine form. For example, I think of physical strength as a masculine identified strength, yet it is a strength many women possess and some men do not. But a physically strong woman could still have an overall feminine appearance and demeanor. Or a physically weaker man could still be overall masculine. Does that make sense? Whereas, what I would call "emotional" strength, is something I think of as a more feminine strength, but again most men possess it and some women do not. 

Actually, what got me thinking more about this in that direction was that socialbfly responded and she is, to my understanding, a nurse. And nursing has been a traditionally female profession in a lot of places throughout history, but honestly, think of the strength it really takes to be a nurse. To remain calm in the face of the horror, blood, panic and fear that goes along with illness, injury or even something as natural as childbirth. So to me that is why I would say that emotional strength is a female strength, yet obviously, many men are nurses, paramedics, even most good fathers have that trait. So to me I think it is the traits that get the definition but they are by no means restricted to one gender and as far as appearance, well, a lot of that has to do with manner and style more than the actual build of a person.

And that's just my take on strength, this would apply to many other traits as well. And I'm also aware that the masculine and feminine classification I just gave to those traits probably has as much to do with the history of society designating them as male or female and that is a whole other issue entirely. Probably, something like strength should just be physical, emotional etc and not "genderized"(yes, I just made that up), but we seem to always label things by gender and it's a difficult thing to overcome.

Oh, and in terms of BBW in my mind I understand that the build can be seen as very womanly, but I also think there is power and strength that could also be seen in that type of female form. It's the same way with the BHM, they are strong and big men, but the softness definitely has a more "feminine" association traditionally. And I think that's why they're often thought of as "cuddly" that's sort of a nurturing idea. Yet, no one would confuse a handsome BHM with a beautiful BBW, so it is all in the presentation, I guess. But really, that's probably true of men and women of all shapes and sizes. Scrawny, athletic, you can still tell men and women apart most of the time unless the person is intentionally androgynous in their presentation of themselves. 

Those are my thoughts so far. I'm sure other posters will get me thinking and I'll butt back in later.


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## Fascinita (May 2, 2008)

olwen said:


> Oh Fascinita all that goes without saying. It just seems reductive for our non physical characteristics to be classified as masculine or feminine. But there has to be more to this, you know?



Well, to be honest, as someone who appreciates androgyny in both biological genders, I find that it's reductive, as well, to classify typically feminine and typically masculine physical characteristics as such. I find "feminine" men just as attractive as "masculine" men, for instance. I don't think of the "feminine"-looking men as less manly. That is, I'm still a woman attracted to a man who happens to look less traditionally masculine.

When I say "feminine," it strikes me that I recognize such characteristics as traditionally out of the box for what's considered manly. On the other hand, you could call it by another name, and it wouldn't be any less or more appealing to me. And I don't find "feminine" any more definitive of what makes or doesn't make a man (or a woman) than, say, "olive-skinned" or "long-limbed." So if the feminine traits fail to take anything away from the manliness, are they really feminine? I'm talking strictly from my own POV here.

There's been some research that suggests that certain facial features that are typically "female" (rounder, softer faces; smaller noses comparatively) are seen as less threatening and more likeable by people.

Check this out and see if it adds anything to this conversation, viz. "what men and women find attractive": http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/news/Title,20654,en.html


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## Les Toil (May 3, 2008)

How women react to the beauty of nature. I've traveled with men and women but I've gotten a stronger and more meaningful appreciation for the beauty and wonders of nature through the reaction of women. Their spiritual love for that which God (not Jesus) has given us is the epitome of femininity to me.


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## Fwiffo22 (May 3, 2008)

If you'll allow me to delve into this a little more deeply... I can't help but ask myself the question "what is the impact of having this conversation"? 

To clarify a bit, let me first say that I am firmly in the camp that the vast majority, if not all differences in gender (aside from the strictly biological, obviously) are indeed socially constructed. So coming from there, I find myself wondering how I can answer this question effectively? If my premise is that "feminine" is merely a definition of qualities or attributes historically associated with the female gender, is there an effective answer for me?

If I may leave that last paragraph as is and move on, however, I also wonder if we, as bbws and FAs, are perhaps more equipped to define feminine, and many other terms, purely because we are, perhaps, more open-minded to seeing that societal norms are certainly not always correct. Of course, it could certainly be false to assume that everyone here or even most people here are more open-minded than the general population, but I am certainly willing to make that leap!

Alas, I seem to have spouted quite a few words but have arrived at more questions than answers! Ahh well, perhaps further discussion will help me organize my thoughts on the matter.

-Charlie


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## Fascinita (May 3, 2008)

Les Toil said:


> Their spiritual love for that which God (not Jesus) has given us is the epitome of femininity to me.



I would say that this is not completely out of line with my earlier statement, that women seem (to me) to have a keen understanding of the physical life cycles. I've felt like my own spirituality is strongly connected to a sense of the world's beauty, on the one hand, and my sense of the fragility of life, on the other. Whether that's feminine or not, I don't know. But it's nice to know that this is a quality that is noted and appreciated by others.


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## mediaboy (May 3, 2008)

Thinking astrology is a good idea


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## Shosh (May 3, 2008)

Femininity for me is how I speak and conduct myself as a woman. I think it is good to be assertive but it is also nice to acknowledge the differences between the genders and sometimes allow men to take the role of being someone who guides and that of the protector. That is being feminine to me.


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## bexy (May 3, 2008)

its different to each person, and thats the beauty of threads like this.

to me, and i stress to me

physically- soft skin, curves, belly, bum, boobs, pretty but individual features like freckles, moles or pretty eyelashes, taking care of yourself, clean hair, clean skin (not perfect skin, just that they wash i mean lol), smelling nice

personality/mentally- an inner strength that no one can explain;its just there, maternal instinct, warmth, a friendly manner, politeness, willingness to adopt gender roles but not succumb to them, love for other women, and if you are me a love of pink things 


stuff like that to me seems pretty feminine.


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## JayInBuff (May 3, 2008)

bexylicious said:


> to me, and i stress to me
> 
> physically- soft skin, curves, belly, bum, boobs, pretty but individual features like freckles, moles or pretty eyelashes, taking care of yourself, clean hair, clean skin (not perfect skin, just that they wash i mean lol), smelling nice
> 
> stuff like that to me seems pretty feminine.



So...hard, flat, ugly, unkempt, dirty and smelly is VERY masculine. YEAH, now I know why all the women love me.

But actually I agree with most of these. Soft features, soft skin and a curvy body, definitely. There is also a distinct womanly scent.


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## bexy (May 3, 2008)

JayInBuff said:


> So...hard, flat, ugly, unkempt, dirty and smelly is VERY masculine. YEAH, now I know why all the women love me.
> 
> But actually I agree with most of these. Soft features, soft skin and a curvy body, definitely. There is also a distinct womanly scent.



lol noooo unkempt dirty and smelly is just fugly!


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

Everyone makes interesting points here. It's good to see everyone's take on this too. All the things that have been brought up are things that I have thought about in one way or another beleive me. I wondered about the point to this question before I started the thread, but felt that input would help me think thru this in a new way, which it has. I was quite stuck on the physical stuff for a while and i wasn't expecting to hear the mental/emotional stuff being brought up first, but I'm glad it was. 

What I'm trying to really understand is why FAs/FFAs don't androgynize fat, when the "average person" probably would, especially when that is what we are all taught. Why is it, how is it that those among us who love fat see it in very sexual terms, gendered terms even? I can see how this question would be similar to why GLBT people like other GLBT people. My answer to that would be "Who cares? It just is, so just accept it. What's for Lunch?" So is it pointless to ask why so many people are hardwired to be turned on by fat, _and _ is it pointless to ask why so many people attribute that fat to some gendered characteristic? 

Or should I just go see what's for lunch?


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## JayInBuff (May 3, 2008)

olwen said:


> What I'm trying to really understand is why FAs/FFAs don't androgynize fat, when the "average person" probably would, especially when that is what we are all taught. Why is it, how is it that those among us who love fat see it in very sexual terms, gendered terms even?



I find fat very feminine. I would guess biologically big hips are good for having children and big boobs are good for making children.  How do you get big hips and big boobs? Fat! I think men "look best" when they are athletic and muscular, not that I'm looking. Society agrees with me on the men part but for some reason not on how women should look.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

There's this business about the waist to hip ratio being more important than size, but I won't get into that. I disagree with you Jay about men looking best when they are athletic and muscualar. I have been as taken with men with bellies (that aren't bigger than mine - it's a pride thing) as I have been with lean muscular looking guys. For myself fat didn't have anything to do with how masculine I thought they were. It didn't add to it or take away from it. It was just something that turned me on.


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## Tooz (May 3, 2008)

I'm not sure, but I know broad shoulders sure as hell ain't.

Signed,
Miss "DOES THAT SHIRT HAVE SHOULDER PADS?" Tooz.


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## Ernest Nagel (May 3, 2008)

I suppose I mostly subscribe to this thought:

"Femininity appears to be one of those pivotal qualities that is so important no one can define it." ~ Caroline Bird

If forced to answer I suppose I might say it's that condition wherein a woman is completely at ease with her sexuality. This might at times be more challenging for a BBW but I think that's what makes it even more alluring, at least to me.

And, yeah, per usual, good inquiry, Olwen. :bow: Could someone kindly rep her for me?


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 3, 2008)

I believe that the reason many people characterize certain behaviors -- and associated mental characteristics -- as 'masculine' or 'feminine' is cultural lag. I have read that, prior to World War II, about 70% of Americans lived on farms or in small, rural towns. Family farms were common, and nobody had coined the word 'agribusiness' yet. In that agricultural economy, men and women had separate and distinct roles: men and older boys worked outdoors in the fields; women and older girls kept house, did the cooking, and watched the younger children. Aggressiveness was considered a male trait because most threats to the family came from outside and would have to be met by the men and boys before the threat got to the house. Carefulness and precision were considered feminine because the women were responsible for protecting and rationing out the family's stores. You can still see this pattern at work in some third world societies today. Over the last sixty years, however, the US has switched from a rural, agricultural economy to an urban, service economy -- 70% of the population now lives in urban centers. Consequently, the old models of 'masculine' and 'feminine' roles no longer work: hence this thread.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

Oh, but Dr. Feelgood, who's to say that is the way it should have been then? Why should it have been the woman's responsibility to ration stores or a man's responsibility to work outdoors. I could easily have used your "cultural lag" theory to argue away such rigid roles then as I do now. It's not as simple as that.

ETA: Who do you think was minding the farm both indoors and out when men went off to fight wars? 

In many third world countries women do all of the selling and shopping too. Marketplaces are by and large a place where women gather. They are still outdoors transporting the goods from the farm to the market. Did the men run the farm and watch the children while the women were at market? Probably not.


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## snuffy2000 (May 3, 2008)

Now the subject of femininity and the "role" (to me there is no role and everyone is entitled to live their own life regardless of past customs and stereotypes) of a woman should be kept totally seperate since it's two entirely different subjects and could possibly lead to a masochistic downward spiral in the discussion of all of this. but Feminine to me physically is softness, grace and beauty. As for the mental aspect of femininity, to me, it would fall under nurturing, caring, intelligence, and seduction . I know it seems straight-forward almost to a degree of being blunt, but it's hard to describe femininity without coming close to objectifying the element.

That would be my 2 cents on this matter.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

Good point snuffy. Thanks.


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## Brit_FA (May 3, 2008)

In some ways, the only tools we have for examining this excellent question can erect their own barriers to our understanding. We must use cultural observation, and language to express what we observe, and both of those things are essentially subjective means of analysis and expression.

If it helps at all, I think of my wife as extremely female on the gender continuum, but not "feminine" in the girly sense (she is much less interested in lingerie than I am)! So I think that "feamle" is the core of gender, while "feminine" is a cultural super-structure, which will therefore vary from one culture to another.

As a tangent, I also happen to believe that all non-physical traits normally ascribed to race should properly be ascribed to culture.


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## ESPN Cutie (May 3, 2008)

*In my opinion - and I repeat, IMO - physically being feminine means being curvy (although my definition of curvy is having a chest and butt and not necessarily a belly), not being too tall, having longer hair, and warm/welcoming features. Also, being graceful, lady-like, understated, and composed. Personality wise, being feminine means being caring, nurturing, loving, supportive, wanting to help/take care of others, having a quiet, inner-strength, and knowing when to let a man be a man.*


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## mossystate (May 3, 2008)

Last night, I watched The Stepford Wives...ummmm..yeah.


The whole idea of ' feminine ' and ' masculine ' get loads of people worrying over whether they ' fit in ' and usually varies as widely and wildly as you can think of agendas.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

mossystate said:


> Last night, I watched The Stepford Wives...ummmm..yeah.
> 
> 
> The whole idea of ' feminine ' and ' masculine ' get loads of people worrying over whether they ' fit in ' and usually varies as widely and wildly as you can think of agendas.




LOL, I'm starting to get that. Still it's good to know so many people see it slightly differently.


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## Dr. P Marshall (May 3, 2008)

olwen said:


> What I'm trying to really understand is why FAs/FFAs don't androgynize fat, when the "average person" probably would, especially when that is what we are all taught. Why is it, how is it that those among us who love fat see it in very sexual terms, gendered terms even?



Since I'm an FFA I don't know if this will be helpful at all, but to me, I can think about fat and whether it's androgynous, feminine or masculine when asked in a thread like this to think about it. But in terms of my attraction to it, I have to be honest, it's mostly a visceral response. I just find a fat man's body more attractive. The attributes that I like about it society may give gender terms to, but in my head and other places I don't really analyze it. I don't even think in terms of gender when thinking of the attributes that I like in day to day life. I may know that I like the softness, but I don't think about whether that is a masculine or feminine trait, just that it is something I like. I may associate softness with gentleness, or comfort, or sensuality, but I don't actually think of it as a distinctly feminine trait, so it doesn't make BHM seem more feminine in my mind. I don't know if that makes sense or even answers your question, though.


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

Dr. P Marshall said:


> Since I'm an FFA I don't know if this will be helpful at all, but to me, I can think about fat and whether it's androgynous, feminine or masculine when asked in a thread like this to think about it. But in terms of my attraction to it, I have to be honest, it's mostly a visceral response. I just find a fat man's body more attractive. The attributes that I like about it society may give gender terms to, but in my head and other places I don't really analyze it. I don't even think in terms of gender when thinking of the attributes that I like in day to day life. I may know that I like the softness, but I don't think about whether that is a masculine or feminine trait, just that it is something I like. I may associate softness with gentleness, or comfort, or sensuality, but I don't actually think of it as a distinctly feminine trait, so it doesn't make BHM seem more feminine in my mind. I don't know if that makes sense or even answers your question, though.



Dr. P. this makes sense and answers my question. I do understand you. I don't know that I turn on a gender deconstruction switch in my head when I am with someone either. I just think they're attractive and that's the end of it. I don't find a man with smaller muscles to be less attractive or less masculine than a man with more muscles and I don't find a guy with long hair to be less attractive or more feminine than a guy with short hair. I don't think a shorter man is more womanly than a taller one. I don't think a man with a belly is in any way feminine, in fact I find it manly, and I like the way it feels against my ass. (TMI?) It's all good to me. 

But I have to wonder if there might be more leeway for men in that regard. I mean men have more freedom to be physically "au natural" than woman do. The ones who primp and preen aren't seen as less masculine either - we consider them clean don't we. 

Are the "rules" for "masculine behavior" more or less strict than the rules for "feminine behavior"? They both actually seem rather rigid. So then the question becomes how does one circumvent such ridiculous "rules" without loosing sexual power? 

....Do these seem like irrelevant questions? Am I worrying about these things for nothing?


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## William (May 3, 2008)

Olwen

I always thought that women have more leeway because with women the lack of the " society approved femininity" is expressed as the women being less attractive.

When it comes to men being perceived as having less masculinity is expressed as the man being less manly , not less handsome.

William





olwen said:


> Dr. P. this makes sense and answers my question. I do understand you. I don't know that I turn on a gender deconstruction switch in my head when I am with someone either. I just think they're attractive and that's the end of it. I don't find a man with smaller muscles to be less attractive or less masculine than a man with more muscles and I don't find a guy with long hair to be less attractive or more feminine than a guy with short hair. I don't think a shorter man is more womanly than a taller one. I don't think a man with a belly is in any way feminine, in fact I find it manly, and I like the way it feels against my ass. (TMI?) It's all good to me.
> 
> But I have to wonder if there might be more leeway for men in that regard. I mean men have more freedom to be physically "au natural" than woman do. The ones who primp and preen aren't seen as less masculine either - we consider them clean don't we.
> 
> ...


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## olwen (May 3, 2008)

William said:


> Olwen
> 
> I always thought that women have more leeway because with women the lack of the " society approved femininity" is expressed as the women being less attractive.
> 
> ...



William, I can assure you that for women sometimes having less femininity equals having less womanliness and less attractiveness. Moreover when women do try to assert themselves they are harassed, jailed, tortured, and even put to death. This is not the same as a man being jailed or tortured for standing up for himself. If he is it is because of whatever the actions are about, not because they are men. In some places if it is known that a woman is no longer a virgin she is seen as no longer womanly or feminine and she is put to death because she is a woman.


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## William (May 3, 2008)

Hi Olwen

I was only talking about what I have observed in the US, but in another group that I participate in there is a lady in the Middle-East and Northern Africa region and she does share her hardships.

Really in US Society both genders are ridiculed because of fat, both suffer comments about fertility, health, hygiene, laziness and etc. 

I do think that Fat Men have had it harder in Fat Acceptance in regards to the Feminine and Masculinity debates. This has gotten a lot better since people have moved from the Yahoo/BBW Groups Era (the weekly BBW Daance Era) into the Fat Blogs Era were the conversation is less Fat Admiration and more Fat Acceptance.

William







olwen said:


> William, I can assure you that for women sometimes having less femininity equals having less womanliness and less attractiveness. Moreover when women do try to assert themselves they are harassed, jailed, tortured, and even put to death. This is not the same as a man being jailed or tortured for standing up for himself. If he is it is because of whatever the actions are about, not because they are men. In some places if it is known that a woman is no longer a virgin she is seen as no longer womanly or feminine and she is put to death because she is a woman.


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> I was only talking about what I have observed in the US, but in another group that I participate in there is a lady in the Middle-East and Northern Africa region and she does share her hardships.
> 
> ...


I've never been involved in fat acceptance with other fat people till now. All the other fat people I know in my personal life are now and always have been women, so unfortunately I'm not very aware of what some things are like for big men. Part of the reason I like Dims is that I get to hear a BHM's side of things. Can you expand on your last paragraph for me? This is not something I'm very familiar with and I want to understand.


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## OneWickedAngel (May 4, 2008)

olwen said:


> William, I can assure you that for women sometimes having less femininity equals having less womanliness and less attractiveness.



I am not girly (except for some of my lingerie). I so rarely wear a skirt or dress my co-workers mark it down on a calendar when I do. I am blunt and outspoken. I chug beer and cuss like a sailor during a football game. I use chain saw almost better than I use a spatula. I am annoyed by "chick flicks", Harlequin romance novels and the "We", "Lifetime" and "Oxygen" networks. I loathe all medium to light shades of pink on me; am not a fan of most pastels and with faux apologies to Tooz - I have broad shoulders, long arms and large hands. But I guarantee you no one has _ever_ mistaken me for anything other than feminine. :batting:

Like beauty - I believe femininity (womanliness, attractiveness and the more or the lack thereof) is in the eye of the beholder and of the one being beheld.


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

OneWickedAngel said:


> I am not girly (except for some of my lingerie). I so rarely wear a skirt or dress my co-workers mark it down on a calendar when I do. I am blunt and outspoken. I chug beer and cuss like a sailor during a football game. I use chain saw almost better than I use a spatula. I am annoyed by "chick flicks", Harlequin romance novels and the "We", "Lifetime" and "Oxygen" networks. I loathe all medium to light shades of pink on me; am not a fan of most pastels and with faux apologies to Tooz - I have broad shoulders, long arms and large hands. But I guarantee you no one has _ever_ mistaken me for anything other than feminine. :batting:
> 
> Like beauty - I believe femininity (womanliness, attractiveness and the more or the lack thereof) is in the eye of the beholder and of the one being beheld.




I don't consider myself girly either, I never have. But even when I think I've presented myself as quite feminine I still get mistaken for a man, and I suspect that my size has a lot to do with it. Would I still be mistaken for a guy if I were thinner? 

But the more pics I see of all the big beautiful ladies here I think, gee these women are very very feminine. Some are my size and some are bigger and there's no way anyone would look at these ladies and question that. Then I look at pics I've taken of myself and see feminine and wonder what the people who don't see that are thinking. It's all just very strange to me.


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## Jack Skellington (May 4, 2008)

*Jack’s helpful guide of femininity.*

If you’ve ever wondered “Am I feminine?” Jack has the answers. So here are ten common warning signs that you _might _not be the most delicate flower in the vase of womanhood. 

If your favorite phrase is “Pull my finger.” you are probably not feminine.

If you are built like a linebacker and have more body hair than a Grizzly Bear you are probably not feminine.

If your favorite outfit consists of Doc Martin boots and worn out coveralls you are probably not feminine. 

If you enjoy belching words and phrases you are probably not feminine.

If you enjoy using chewing tobacco you are probably not feminine.

If you have ever smashed a beer can on your forehead you are probably not feminine.

If you have ever tried to urinate your name in the snow you are probably not feminine.

If you can rattle off sports scores from the last 50 years but cannot remember birthdays or anniversaries you are probably not feminine.

If you&#8216;ve ever be in a contest to see who could spit the farthest you are probably not feminine.

If you think a night of culture consists of tractor pulls and monster truck rallies you are probably not feminine.


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

Yeah, but Jack, what would the "you are probably not masculine if..." version be?


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## OneWickedAngel (May 4, 2008)

olwen said:


> Yeah, but Jack, what would the "you are probably not masculine if..." version be?



Considering I have commited some of the "not feminine" choices presented (writing in the snow is tricky - but doable :blush - I'm almost afraid to see Jack's "not masculine" rendition.


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## William (May 4, 2008)

Hi Olwen

Well I have been around Fat Acceptance for as long as I had a computer and even before Fat Men participated in Fat Acceptance as "Fat People" they were counted as second class citizens.

Fat Acceptance has always promoted Fat as 100% Feminine which from the start did not leave any space for Fat Men, yet at the same time Fat Acceptance use to say that Fat Men had little need of Fat Acceptance. Logically these two stances can not logically exist, but Fat Acceptance is not about logic, but a reaction to society. 

Over the years Fat Acceptance has become a lot more empathic toward the experiences of Fat Men even though our history is still a PC version told by the Fat Acceptance community.

William







olwen said:


> I've never been involved in fat acceptance with other fat people till now. All the other fat people I know in my personal life are now and always have been women, so unfortunately I'm not very aware of what some things are like for big men. Part of the reason I like Dims is that I get to hear a BHM's side of things. Can you expand on your last paragraph for me? This is not something I'm very familiar with and I want to understand.


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## Bagalute (May 4, 2008)

"But what if Sex is already a gendered way of looking at bodies? What if Sex is already gender, so that the distinction between the two is no distinction at all? What if Sex - the original Given, transcendent and universal - could be deconstructed?"

Riki Wilchins

I'm really glad I took this "Queer literature and culture" class this semester. I used to find most of the gender theories amusing at best but some of the stuff I have gotten into is really deep and interesting!


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## butch (May 4, 2008)

This is a tricky question, olwen. My first thought is, feminine is whatever anyone who wants to be labled feminine says it is. We have as many different choices as to what feminine and masculine is as there are epochs and cultures on the planet.

One thing I always think about when people talk about external, non-biological components of femininity, how time/place specific they are. I think of those images from the 18th century of white men in powdered wigs, and all the ribbons and stiching on their coats, and their breeches, and their big hats and the powder on their face and i think, feminine.

Or, I think of those paintings (I can't remember what century they're from, but I think they come from the Low Countries and France) of all the peasants in the wheat fields in Europe, and the women are wearing simple clothes, stocky,with faces weathered from their back breaking work, and I think, masculine.

I will say that, for me only, I like the fact that fat in my opinion is androgynous (I can never spell that word!). Fat is neither exclusively male or female to me, and as a bisexual, I think that I find fat on a man I'm attracted to as masculine, and fat on a female I find attractive as feminine.
 
As far as I'm concerned, I think fat on me makes me look more masculine, but I don't think I'm masculine because I look that way, and I don't think I'm feminine because I 'think' more like a girl in many ways. I just am, and I leave it up to the other person(s) to decide how they want to interact with me, gender-wise.


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> Well I have been around Fat Acceptance for as long as I had a computer and even before Fat Men participated in Fat Acceptance as "Fat People" they were counted as second class citizens.
> 
> ...



I'm glad to see the movement expanding in that way. I can say this: the fat acceptance movement was started around the same time the women's movement was picking up momentum and the original members - the precursor to NAAFA - were all women. They felt empowered. So yes in that regard I could see how it would be and remain woman centered for so long. 

The way I see it, men need to come together and raise their voices and make themselves heard. A handful of men isn't going to get the message across unless you shout but loud. There may be issues that diverge (reproductive health issues or sexual exploitation issues probably), but for the most part we all share the same experiences. I do see that. I've also seen both sides try to claim their issues were more pressing and that's not the way to go about it either. It just alienates the fat sisters from the fat brothers.


So having said that let me ask the BHMs reading this thread this: Do any of you feel your masculinity being taken away by your fat? I would think many people would be much more likely to judge your character negatively because of your fat rather than your reproductive value. How far from the truth is this? Or should this be another topic for the FFA/BHM board?


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

Bagalute said:


> *"But what if Sex is already a gendered way of looking at bodies? What if Sex is already gender, so that the distinction between the two is no distinction at all? What if Sex - the original Given, transcendent and universal - could be deconstructed?"*
> 
> Riki Wilchins
> 
> I'm really glad I took this "Queer literature and culture" class this semester. I used to find most of the gender theories amusing at best but some of the stuff I have gotten into is really deep and interesting!



Well yeah, that's part of what I'm trying to accomplish with this thread with a focus on how this relates to fat people and fat admiration.



butch said:


> This is a tricky question, olwen. My first thought is, feminine is whatever anyone who wants to be labled feminine says it is. We have as many different choices as to what feminine and masculine is as there are epochs and cultures on the planet.
> 
> One thing I always think about when people talk about external, non-biological components of femininity, how time/place specific they are. I think of those images from the 18th century of white men in powdered wigs, and all the ribbons and stiching on their coats, and their breeches, and their big hats and the powder on their face and i think, feminine.
> 
> ...



I have the same thought about 18th and 16th century fashion! These dudes are in wigs and buckled pumps and they were very masculine. I often wonder what happened to make those outward trappings become feminine. I mean the only thing missing from their wardrobe is a corset! I think of kilts too. I love those and find them very masculine and hot yet it's still a skirt. Why does changing that one word make it masculine or feminine when it's the same fucking garment?

Regarding your last paragraph, maybe this is the way it should be eh? We should let go of those gender constructs enough to not freak if someone thinks we're not quite what we want them to think....such programming is hard to let go of.


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## William (May 4, 2008)

Hi Olwen

I actually like the message of early Fat Acceptance much better than in the 80s and 90s, by that time I had become disillusioned with the movement until I came across this link that highlighted the roots of Fat Acceptance when it was a lot purer.

Link:
http://largesse.net/Archives/index.html

I to hope more Fat Guys speak up, even if what they have to say goes against what Fat Acceptance portrays and reports to the press as being what Fat Men experience. 

William




olwen said:


> I'm glad to see the movement expanding in that way. I can say this: the fat acceptance movement was started around the same time the women's movement was picking up momentum and the original members - the precursor to NAAFA - were all women. They felt empowered. So yes in that regard I could see how it would be and remain woman centered for so long.
> 
> The way I see it, men need to come together and raise their voices and make themselves heard. A handful of men isn't going to get the message across unless you shout but loud. There may be issues that diverge (reproductive health issues or sexual exploitation issues probably), but for the most part we all share the same experiences. I do see that. I've also seen both sides try to claim their issues were more pressing and that's not the way to go about it either. It just alienates the fat sisters from the fat brothers.
> 
> ...


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 4, 2008)

olwen said:


> Oh, but Dr. Feelgood, who's to say that is the way it should have been then? Why should it have been the woman's responsibility to ration stores or a man's responsibility to work outdoors. I could easily have used your "cultural lag" theory to argue away such rigid roles then as I do now. It's not as simple as that.
> 
> I think it comes down to the fact that life was harder and more hazardous in those days, infant mortality was high, and so children had to be protected at all costs. Babies and small children need to be fed regularly, too, and they need milk, which men can't supply. In most European cultures, India, and China, then, it was deemed efficient to keep the women and children together in an easily defensible place and let the men go out into the fields. And since, as I mentioned earlier, physical danger was likely to come from outside, it made sense for the men to form the first line of defense: men are more expendable than women. If you lose all but one or two men in a raid, there can still be a next generation. If you lose all but one or two of the women, you've got bigger troubles.
> 
> ...



Depends on the culture, I suppose. According to Herodotus, this is the way the Egyptians managed things -- plus, he says the men did the weaving, which the Greeks considered women's work. However, Herodotus has not only been called "the Father of History" but also "the Father of Lies"... In any case, what I'm trying to say, I think, is that a lot of our ideas about 'masculine' and 'feminine' come from traditions that may have made economic sense at one time but no longer do so -- hence much of the confusion, especially among people who don't stop to ask 'why?'


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

Whoa my good doctor, before I respond, I'm reposting your post with your parts in a different color because I looked at it and thought, "When did I say that?" before I realized those were your responses to my post


Originally Posted by olwen View Post


> Oh, but Dr. Feelgood, who's to say that is the way it should have been then? Why should it have been the woman's responsibility to ration stores or a man's responsibility to work outdoors. I could easily have used your "cultural lag" theory to argue away such rigid roles then as I do now. It's not as simple as that.
> 
> I think the pattern of men working outside and women inside (incidentally, for what it's worth, the Chinese word for 'husband' literally means 'outside person' and 'wife' is 'inside person') came from the fact that life was more hazardous in the dim past, infant mortality was higher, and the children had to be protected for the family to have a future. Small children can't be allowed to wander much, and they need milk -- which men can't provide -- so keeping the family valuables -- supplies and children -- in a protected spot along with the women was efficient. As I mentioned earlier, physical threats tended to come from outside, and I suspect that men formed the first line of defense because they're more expendable than women. If only one of the men survives a raid, there can still be a next generation: if only one woman survives, you've got a bigger problem.
> 
> ...






Dr. Feelgood said:


> Depends on the culture, I suppose. According to Herodotus, this is the way the Egyptians managed things -- plus, he says the men did the weaving, which the Greeks considered women's work. However, Herodotus has not only been called "the Father of History" but also "the Father of Lies"... In any case, what I'm trying to say, I think, is that a lot of our ideas about 'masculine' and 'feminine' come from traditions that may have made economic sense at one time but no longer do so -- hence much of the confusion, especially among people who don't stop to ask 'why?'



I do know among many African peoples the women do a great deal of work in the feilds. I can't remember which group does this but I remember reading about how if a woman was menstruating she wasn't allowed anywhere near the field for fear that her menstrual blood would somehow rot the crops or cause some other crazy catastrophe.

You make very good points. But I was thinking globally over time as well. And the countries for which major wars or skirmishes lasted for decades at a time. I can't see how women couldn't/wouldn't/didn't manage the fields even if there were less able bodied men around. If many of the men are at war or practicing to be at war that only leaves women. If the men die that leaves women to fend for themselves or find new men.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 4, 2008)

olwen said:


> I do know among many African peoples the women do a great deal of work in the feilds. I can't remember which group does this but I remember reading about how if a woman was menstruating she wasn't allowed anywhere near the field for fear that her menstrual blood would somehow rot the crops or cause some other crazy catastrophe.
> 
> I think I recall reading about this, too-- _waaay_ long ago. It would be interesting if we could find out how these people think about masculine vs. feminine qualities, wouldn't it?
> 
> You make very good points. But I was thinking globally over time as well. And the countries for which major wars or skirmishes lasted for decades at a time. I can't see how women couldn't/wouldn't/didn't manage the fields even if there were less able bodied men around. If many of the men are at war or practicing to be at war that only leaves women. If the men die that leaves women to fend for themselves or find new men.



There are two point here I'd like to address. First, in antiquity you have very few major conflicts before the Peloponnesian War (431-4 BC): before that, most towns were too small and poor to keep an army in the field for longer than a few weeks.* So when you say 'skirmishes' you hit the nail on the head. Second, if wars were small-scale, families were large-scale: people tended to marry young, have several children, and not move away from their kin. So a woman whose husband died could probably name fifty relatives within a day's journey who could take her in, at least temporarily -- and then negotiate for a new husband. In ancient Athens, where women were not allowed to own property, one of the few excuses that would allow a soldier on active duty to go on furlough was if one of his male relatives died, and he had to go marry the widow in order to keep the property in the family! I doubt this was the case in many other places, but I think it shows the difference in the role of the extended family in ancient times from the nuclear family of our own day, and how that, too, might affect the way men and women regarded themselves.

*Homer claims the Trojan War lasted ten years, but ten weeks would have been the equivalent of World War II in those days.


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## olwen (May 4, 2008)

It would be interesting to hear what ancient peoples thought about their gender roles and whether or not they were stifling. For what it's worth, Maryiln French has a book called From Eve To Dawn a History of Women in The World. I haven't finished reading it. In fact I've only scanned it briefly, but I do wonder what her conjectures are as to the treatment of ancient women. I can only imagine they'd feel as stifled in their gender roles as modern day women do. But you know I'm starting to think that men would feel just as stifled by theirs.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 4, 2008)

olwen said:


> It would be interesting to hear what ancient peoples thought about their gender roles and whether or not they were stifling. For what it's worth, Maryiln French has a book called From Eve To Dawn a History of Women in The World. I haven't finished reading it. In fact I've only scanned it briefly, but I do wonder what her conjectures are as to the treatment of ancient women. I can only imagine they'd feel as stifled in their gender roles as modern day women do. But you know I'm starting to think that men would feel just as stifled by theirs.



I think you're right. :bow: I also suspect those ancients would look on the way we live with horror and think: "How can they stand to _live_ like that?" Which is pretty much the way I look at their cultures from my smug, twentieth-century viewpoint.*

*I still have a little catching up to do.


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## OneWickedAngel (May 4, 2008)

Women working in traditionally "masculine" jobs while men were out to war was not just a situation for ancient times. I'm sure most of us have heard of or seen images of either Norman Rockwell "Rosie the Riveter" painting or Miller's "We Can Do It" painting often mistaken as Rosie. 












Rosie as an icon represented the millions of woman who worked in the manufacturing plants building the planes, munitions etc needed to fight during World War II. Those who had them - left their children with other caretakers (the young or the elderly) as they went to work the machines.


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## Pookie (May 5, 2008)

I think now as a society being less constained by 'traditional' roles of men and women, it therefore makes femininity anything we choose it to be, same for masculinity.

I work in a very female led area, childcare, men are rare as hens teeth in Primary School educational roles, no matter how much its deemed 'ok' for men to be involved with bringing up children its not really impacted on this area. So I consider my job a defining aspect of my femininity. The caring, nurturing and educating side of me is expressed daily.

However I hate girly films and love horrors and action, hate romance novels, dont like being given massive OTT bunches of flowers and chocolates as gifts, totally LIVE in my jeans.

But the wearing of a skirt doesnt define me as a woman, I love necklaces and always wearing something pretty and dangly, 90% of the time I wear pretty eye make up, usually wearing a top that shows some cleavage and I enjoy the attention it gets, so my feminity is defined by soft large breasts, curved wide hips, smaller waist, long hair, make up and the obligatory jeans.

But these things dont define every woman nor every womans feminity and I think this is a good change for us, that we can switch gender roles around without there being a huge issue, that we can all enjoy our interests.


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## Ernest Nagel (May 5, 2008)

I've been thinking a bit about this as I considered that I am _generally_ not attracted to what society defines as "feminine" women. Not even so much that, as I dig women who are unabashedly powerful, who own their power and influence openly but wield it deftly. It's definitely not a masculine way of being and while I might even describe it as androgynously sensual it defies conventional gender boundaries. What that suggests to me is that femininity somehow implies covert power; a stealthy, subtle control? Don't mean to make it sound sneaky but for tactical reasons I think it makes sense that women would avoid direct confrontation with physically more powerful males. 

On a completely different level I'll throw this out there. Feminine is to female as blue is to sky. Blue is what we commonly associate with the sky but it can be many other colors; black at night, rich crimsons and azures at dusk and dawn, cloudy gray, the bruised purple granite of thunderheads. It would be a dull world if the sky were always blue. Even more so if women were always feminine. :bow:


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## OneWickedAngel (May 5, 2008)

I think the feelings of being stifled, even now, go both ways. Pookie states how little men there are as teachers in Primary School education. Just look into any day care center and you'll find the numbers are near non-existent in early development education. The numbers are equally puny for male nannies and au-pairs because its seen as a Mommy (a.k.a. female role) and how many male maids do we know of? Those who follow couture can probably name several straight male fashion designers; but lets face it  a young male can be wearing all the latest hip-hop fashion, but if hes sitting behind a Singer, wanting to enter the fashion industry hes still generally looked at with a raised eyebrow. Conversely, no matter how long and flowing the hair, the higher the stiletto heels or how much make-up she wears, professional female body builders get the same raised-eyebrow.

When I worked in mainframe operations (still very much a male dominated industry) I used to crawl under floors to do wiring among the computer hardware. We may have all come out equally dirty and dusty (and occasionally musty), they all thought I was crazy to wanting the job knowing what it entails. When people hire electricians, carpenters or plumbers its not feminine cracksides expecting to made fun of. 

Cooking is traditionally considered a feminine role - yet most of the well known chefs in the world are men. The culinary arts seems to be if not the only - one of the very few industries where masculine or feminine (fat/skinny or any other social demographic) never comes into question. Either you can cook  or not.


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## OneWickedAngel (May 5, 2008)

Ernest Nagel said:


> ...
> On a completely different level I'll throw this out there. Feminine is to female as blue is to sky. Blue is what we commonly associate with the sky but it can be many other colors; black at night, rich crimsons and azures at dusk and dawn, cloudy gray, the bruised purple granite of thunderheads. It would be a dull world if the sky were always blue. Even more so if women were always feminine. :bow:



Such beautifully poetic sky descriptions Ernest! :happy:


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## bigsexy920 (May 5, 2008)

See this just proves Im really a MAN, MAN  



ESPN Cutie said:


> *In my opinion - and I repeat, IMO - physically being feminine means being curvy (although my definition of curvy is having a chest and butt and not necessarily a belly), not being too tall, having longer hair, and warm/welcoming features. Also, being graceful, lady-like, understated, and composed. Personality wise, being feminine means being caring, nurturing, loving, supportive, wanting to help/take care of others, having a quiet, inner-strength, and knowing when to let a man be a man.*


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## ntwp (May 5, 2008)

William said:


> I do think that Fat Men have had it harder in Fat Acceptance in regards to the Feminine and Masculinity debates.



I agree. See below.



OneWickedAngel said:


> I am not girly (except for some of my lingerie). I so rarely wear a skirt or dress my co-workers mark it down on a calendar when I do. I am blunt and outspoken. I am annoyed by "chick flicks", Harlequin romance novels and the "We", "Lifetime" and "Oxygen" networks. ...I loathe all medium to light shades of pink on me; am not a fan of most pastels ... But I guarantee you no one has _ever_ mistaken me for anything other than feminine. :batting:
> Like beauty - I believe femininity (womanliness, attractiveness and the more or the lack thereof) is in the eye of the beholder and of the one being beheld.



I also would not be considered feminine in many of the things I choose to wear, how I act, what I like and dislike. I never considered myself very feminine in the definition that's usually given to it personality-wise, though in terms of my body I have considered myself feminine because I have breasts, wider hips, feminine facial features, etc. 

Alot of people have considered softness as something feminine. Also I think many male FAs consider the soft, big curves on a BBW to be feminine. That is where the problem comes in with an FFA like me, who is a thin woman in a relationship with a more-than-just-chubby BHM. He has those curves, and a bigger butt, hips, thighs and breasts than me. I don't consider him feminine, I consider him to be the hottest man alive. But I freaking love those soft rolls and every inch of his body, that has even been called more "feminine" by people we know. Should I be offended by that? (yes, only if it's said to be cruel, but who cares if we don't fit what society thinks). 

So it's hard to define "masculine" and "feminine" in body-terms for me, and easier to define in in the "roles" we're expected to have. Although I think me my BHM and me have a combination of traditionally "masculine" and "feminine" qualities about each of us, and I kind of like it that way as opposed to being exactly what society thinks we should be. 



Pookie said:


> But these things dont define every woman nor every womans feminity and I think this is a good change for us, that we can switch gender roles around without there being a huge issue, that we can all enjoy our interests.



Yes, exactly.


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## Tad (May 5, 2008)

From Miriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary definitions of feminine: Characteristic of or appropriate or unique to women.

Wow, that could not be much broader, could it? 

Of course, the next definition in the list makes little sense to modern English speaker, as it talks about feminine nouns. We have been weeding those relatively few that exist in English out of common usage for a while now. But I also speak some French, where of course every noun is either masculine or feminine, as the equivalents of the and a do not exist in gender neutral forms, only in masculine and feminine forms. Some of the assignments of things to one or the other are puzzling, but by and large you can see patterns and if you have to guess at a word youll probably get it correct more often than not. My understanding (and please correct me if Im wrong) is that german has neuter, masculine, and feminine nouns, with neuter being the most common, and that latin had something like that as well. That in fact the whole masculine/feminine divide was common in more ancestral indo-european languages. (I dont know about other language families).

From which Ive always suspected that we see the world divided by gender much less than our ancestors probably did. Which is not to say we dont see gender still. Note, for example, that once a first name comes in common use by both genders, it almost always become exclusively a female name within a couple of generations. Nobody blinks at Leslie Nielson, an elderly actor, but I bet any parent naming their new son Leslie these days would get a lot of dubious looks. And a lot of other names have drifted the same way over the years. Which suggests that, when it comes to identity of people at least, we still like to have a clear divide between masculine and feminine.

As to what I think is feminine? I dont think I can define it, probably because Ive not thought about it all that much. Kind of like the knee-jerk reaction of many people to much modern art That isnt art! I cant tell you what art is, but I know it when I see it, and that isnt it! If you do try and define art, I think you either end up meaninglessly vague, or else contentious. I suspect defining gender is somewhat similar, we all have some core feelings of what those things are, but to define it youll either end up as broad as Mirim-Webster did, or have to make very contentious boundaries around it.

So I cant say this is what feminine means to me. But I can say how I feel about a few things germane to Dimensions. For me, fat is neither masculine nor feminine, any more than eyes are. Obviously certain fat distributions are typically masculine or feminine, but even there the dividing line is awfully fuzzy, but even with all that fuzziness I pretty strongly think of a high hip to waist ratio as being feminine. I dont think physical strength is particularly masculine or feminine either, although of course men tend to naturally put on more muscle. I do think strength can be attractive in both gendersI always kind of liked those Rosie the Riveter posters myself. I do tend to feel that using physical size or strength to dominate others as masculine, although I know it is not unique to men. 

Im sure there is more, but Ill need to stir things up in my subconscious and see what rises to the surface. Most of this stuff is buried pretty deep, I think.


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## olwen (May 5, 2008)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> I actually like the message of early Fat Acceptance much better than in the 80s and 90s, by that time I had become disillusioned with the movement until I came across this link that highlighted the roots of Fat Acceptance when it was a lot purer.
> 
> ...



I would hope that more fat guys speak up too.



Ernest Nagel said:


> I've been thinking a bit about this as I considered that I am _generally_ not attracted to what society defines as "feminine" women. Not even so much that, as I dig women who are unabashedly powerful, who own their power and influence openly but wield it deftly. It's definitely not a masculine way of being and while I might even describe it as androgynously sensual it defies conventional gender boundaries. What that suggests to me is that femininity somehow implies covert power; a stealthy, subtle control? Don't mean to make it sound sneaky but for tactical reasons I think it makes sense that women would avoid direct confrontation with physically more powerful males.
> 
> On a completely different level I'll throw this out there. *Feminine is to female as blue is to sky. Blue is what we commonly associate with the sky but it can be many other colors; black at night, rich crimsons and azures at dusk and dawn, cloudy gray, the bruised purple granite of thunderheads. It would be a dull world if the sky were always blue. Even more so if women were always feminine. :bow:*



I like that analogy. I will certainly keep that in mind.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 5, 2008)

Watch out...the crazy fairy has been putting off this thread but now decides to enter. Not so sure if it's going to be a good thing....:doh:



Fascinita said:


> On the other hand, why is directness "masculine"? Why is ambition "masculine"? Why is asserting one's ideas "masculine?
> 
> So I'm always very curious about what it is that makes something traditionally feminine or masculine. To a large extent--though not entirely--I think these gendered concepts are social constructs.



I agree about social constructs.... I also ask those questions...and the answers my mind conjures aren't always so nice/flattering to the human race.... not sure if I want to say them here. 



Fascinita said:


> I will say that I do believe there are certain traits that women are more likely to have, and vice versa for men. For instance, I think that women in general are more caring about others, and that women have a keener understanding of the physical cycles of life.



Some women are fucked in the head and selfish....just like some men. You can't always depend upon a woman to be decent to others. Though, when you get down to it, I DO tend to trust women more with/about some things than I do males. 
My mother was in my head when I wrote this....so my "definition" of feminity and masculinity are going to be somewhat "colored" throughout my responses.
But isn't that interesting...how much of our feminine/masculine ideals come from our caregivers/parents? Most of what we know in life, it's said, we learn before we are five years old. Perhaps it's so deeply rooted we might never be able to fully kick our ideals/definitions of the gender roles. 



Fascinita said:


> I find that most men are more competitive, in general. And, in general, that competitiveness seems to be fueled by a healthy sense of their own importance



Yeah, they are competitive. It's like some craziness called ego takes over and makes them temporarily insane......

Oooopppssss, have I said too much already :doh: 

But realistically speaking....aren't us ladies "competitive"? We just compete over different things....don't we strive to "be the prettiest" or some try to take others boyfriends.....or don't we want the cleanest/nicest home? Or take us out of the homeplace....don't we have ego/pride and want to be #1 in the workplace? I always found it an odd misconception that women don't have egos....mine is pretty fucking big sometimes if I don't reel it in 
That said....women seem more plagued with insecurities/doubts/guilt....I think that goes back to the societal conditioning rather than basic instincts. 




olwen said:


> I was quite stuck on the physical stuff for a while and i wasn't expecting to hear the mental/emotional stuff being brought up first, but I'm glad it was.



Emotional/mindset was the first thing that entered my mind when I read your title.....we already know that boobs and a vag comes with the ladies....it's all the other stuff that can sometimes be...."elusive". 



olwen said:


> Or should I just go see what's for lunch?



You buying? 



Pookie said:


> I think now as a society being less constained by 'traditional' roles of men and women, it therefore makes femininity anything we choose it to be, same for masculinity.
> 
> I work in a very female led area, childcare, men are rare as hens teeth in Primary School educational roles, no matter how much its deemed 'ok' for men to be involved with bringing up children its not really impacted on this area. So I consider my job a defining aspect of my femininity. The caring, nurturing and educating side of me is expressed daily.



I spent so many of my past years working in "male dominated fields" aka auto repair and transportation. Now I work in a dental office...where it's mostly women at work. What a change.......

I can see the positive and negative in both sides...though I feel it's somehow "good" for me to be around other women more. Why? Because I tend to "turtle" myself from them....it's one of my latest, greatest self-epiphanys to realize how much I fear other women, on some lower level that I don't even recognize most times. 

How has this affected my outlook on femininity would be the question that has bearing on this thread. I said previously (admitted?) , in another thread, that I tend to see some of the feminine roles as "weak"....yet here I admit I fear women, too. As a woman, it has affected me as a person....not just my outlook. 
I was told in counseling I "adopted some male traits"...but in my mind, that isn't what happened. I recognize, because it's obvious by the reaction of others, that some people see me as "mannish" but wtf is that? Actually, what I "adopted" are the traits of, what I perceived to be, the stronger parent. My sex....or their sex, really has nadda to do with it when you get down to it. I am who and what I am....and that happens to reside within a female body. My mind, when struggling to survive and deal with the abusive world around me, never discerned sexual roles...it only picked out weak vs strong. I NEEDED to be strong....some things about my mother are very strong. She spooks me sometimes with her emotional strength...the crazy lady that always seems to be almost blown away by the wind emotionally, she can suck it up and hold it in like a steel trap when her will desires it. I have always admired/envied her this ability....
When it comes to responsibility and dependability....I saw my father. Funny, couldn't it be argued that if I simply perceived that as a masculine role, why wouldn't I be the less responsible one and seek a more responsible male "to take care of me"? I don't...instead I adopted my father's strength of hard work, perseverance and responsibility.
Did I cross a gender line? No....I simply grew into what I perceived to be a better type of person, attempting to discern my parents good and bad traits as people...not as gender models. I could see weakness in my father just as I could my mother. 



Pookie said:


> However I hate girly films and love horrors and action, hate romance novels, dont like being given massive OTT bunches of flowers and chocolates as gifts, totally LIVE in my jeans.



Lifetime TV sucks- I consider it, and The View, to be an embarrassment to womanhood 

Though I have no shame when it comes to the chocolate....:batting: 

********************************
One more thing that might be necessary to add, though. 
The first part of my post centered on perceived gender roles being really bullshit and society induced thought control....and that I didn't see masculine/feminine in that light. I believe this....however, I also realized something reading this thread.
That anger I feel towards men sometimes...it's those that I perceive as "weak". Why are they seen as weak (by me)? 
They are acting victim-like....why don't women instill that raw, hard emotion in me the same way? I have empathy for the women....sometimes the males...but it's sure as hell harder to reach it with males. 
Is this a matter of my basic outlook from my past....or is it perceived gender roles playing into it? Perhaps both?


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## olwen (May 5, 2008)

> One more thing that might be necessary to add, though.
> The first part of my post centered on perceived gender roles being really bullshit and society induced thought control....and that I didn't see masculine/feminine in that light. I believe this....however, I also realized something reading this thread.
> That anger I feel towards men sometimes...it's those that I perceive as "weak". Why are they seen as weak (by me)?
> They are acting victim-like....why don't women instill that raw, hard emotion in me the same way? I have empathy for the women....sometimes the males...but it's sure as hell harder to reach it with males.
> Is this a matter of my basic outlook from my past....or is it perceived gender roles playing into it? Perhaps both?



I do the same thing GEF, I feel that anger towards men when I perceive men to be weak, but that same weakness in women, I'd call stupidity....I never really thought about that...I think you might be right about our parents influence. Maybe I saw my father as the weak one and my mother as stupid. But you know when I think about the things she had to deal with I see it as strength if only because she managed to hold it all together whether or not I agreed with her decisions...I'm gonna think about this now. Thanks.


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## PolarKat (May 6, 2008)

olwen said:


> The way I see it, men need to come together and raise their voices and make themselves heard. A handful of men isn't going to get the message across unless you shout but loud. There may be issues that diverge (reproductive health issues or sexual exploitation issues probably), but for the most part we all share the same experiences. I do see that. I've also seen both sides try to claim their issues were more pressing and that's not the way to go about it either. It just alienates the fat sisters from the fat brothers.



It's pointless, even if you raise your voice someone has to listen.. I found an opertunety to actually show you..

In this thread someone posted the following


> I find fat very feminine. I would guess biologically big hips are good for having children and big boobs are good for making children. How do you get big hips and big boobs? Fat! I think men "look best" when they are athletic and muscular, not that I'm looking. Society agrees with me on the men part but for some reason not on how women should look.


Nothing really wrong with this, it's his opinion, as a fat guy I don't agree, I can understand the logic behind it etc..

Now on "Why Are You Here???" thread, Forgotten Future posts that he likes chubby women, and not Large women.. It's the same Idea as this guy pretty much points out. (it's on P.21). People the start attacking him for his opinion, on P.22 I point out the hypocrisy.. and you can follow from there.. What I said was completely ignored..
In reality I'm just curious what the BBW's think.. but alas... I doubt I'll get any answer..


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## butch (May 6, 2008)

I think the reason is the other post was in a thread that is highly charged-lots of angry, hurt, and/or frustrated people are posting in that thread about a very explicitly nasty criticism of how some fat women look. This thread is a speculative series of questions about how we as individuals think about what is feminine (and masculine).

I also think that the post in this thread was written slightly different, and in that regard, it seemed less 'judgemental' to me than the post in the 'why you are here' thread. Using words like "I guess' or putting 'looks best' in quotes to me read as if the OP is suggesting he's making it explicit that these are his opinions that are 'subject to change' if someone wants to engage with him.

Also, what he says is true, isn't it? Women naturally have a higher fat percentage, and they are more likely to have that fat on their hips and in their breasts, and society generally does believe that any women with large breasts and curvy hips are feminine, fat or thin. Plus, society in general does seem to think men should look muscular and lean. I don't think he's saying that this is the only way to think, and that this is a good thing, for men or women. He's just stating his personal preference, and showing that to some degree his opinions match society at large.

Plus, he never said he found other body configurations 'unattractive,' and I think that is the key-he stated his personal preferences without having to state what he found unattractive. Maybe that is the only difference between the 2 posts-one stated a preferance without stating dislikes, the other stated both likes and dislikes.

If it matters, I personally find fat men to be very masculine.


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## PolarKat (May 6, 2008)

butch said:


> I also think that the post in this thread was written slightly different, and in that regard, it seemed less 'judgemental' to me than the post in the 'why you are here' thread. Using words like "I guess' or putting 'looks best' in quotes to me read as if the OP is suggesting he's making it explicit that these are his opinions that are 'subject to change' if someone wants to engage with him.
> 
> Also, what he says is true, isn't it? Women naturally have a higher fat percentage, and they are more likely to have that fat on their hips and in their breasts, and society generally does believe that any women with large breasts and curvy hips are feminine, fat or thin. Plus, society in general does seem to think men should look muscular and lean. I don't think he's saying that this is the only way to think, and that this is a good thing, for men or women. He's just stating his personal preference, and showing that to some degree his opinions match society at large.
> 
> ...



I think there's a perspective that comes into play from the reader when reading each one, In a summary I saw the muscle guy post as "Real men are Buff and socitey agrees with me".. so where do I hand in my testicles and get the lipsick in exchange  
and the other "I like chubby women, but I find the fat ones replusive, but uhmm I uhmm respect those who have a preference for it".

I just see it as one's an ass who didn't think, and the other is an ass that's trying (failing miserably) to be politically correct. As other women pointed out, you don't go to a website full of fat women and dis them.. but there are fat men here also, shouldn't the same.. how can I put it.. standard exist for both?

Gonna run.. I'll fininsh this l8r..


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## olwen (May 6, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> It's pointless, even if you raise your voice someone has to listen.. I found an opertunety to actually show you..
> 
> In this thread someone posted the following
> 
> ...



It isn't pointless. The fact that you are saying anything now at all about how you feel inspires discussion. People who read this WILL think seriously about what you say.



PolarKat said:


> I think there's a perspective that comes into play from the reader when reading each one, In a summary I saw the muscle guy post as "Real men are Buff and socitey agrees with me".. so where do I hand in my testicles and get the lipsick in exchange
> and the other "I like chubby women, but I find the fat ones replusive, but uhmm I uhmm respect those who have a preference for it".
> 
> I just see it as one's an ass who didn't think, and the other is an ass that's trying (failing miserably) to be politically correct. As other women pointed out, you don't go to a website full of fat women and dis them.. but there are fat men here also, shouldn't the same.. how can I put it.. standard exist for both?
> ...


The point of this thread is to have a discussion about femininity and masculinty. (Maybe I should start a what is masculine thread somewhere). That means that opinions will vary and there will be some opinions that you don't agree with, so we discuss them like we're doing now. Good yes?

I see your point here and I agree. If that attitude offends, then be vocal about it and get the other BHM's who share your view to be vocal about it as well. The reason it doesn't fly with the women is because we're all very vocal about it. We just don't let it lie, especially here, because part of the reason Dims exists is to be in a safe place away from that attitude. We can all be either angry and defeatist or we can be angry and active. Your choice. I for one choose angry and active.

I suppose this could all just go back to the idea that being masculine means that not only do you bottle up your feelings, you shove them so far up your ass they could exit out your mouth. I don't think that is masculine or feminine for that matter. It's just impractical. 

I also happen to think fat men are masculine. There's an aura of protection and safety in it that is also inherently nurturing because of that softness. That nurturing element isn't something one would intimate with a hard body - at least I wouldn't. It just isn't. This I think is a good aspect of fat being androgynous. Attributes like power, nurturing, comfort, and lust can be attributed to both sexes because of it. This is not something to complain about. It's something to celebrate....

...And if it hadn't been for all the contributions in this thread I never would have really understood that last bit.

Thanks everybody.


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## butch (May 6, 2008)

I don't always stick up for fat men (and should remind myself to do so more often), but I have done it in the past here at Dims, so I agree with olwen-don't be afraid to tell us how you feel.

I speak up a lot when it comes to gay issues, and I probably annoy some people with it, but so be it. If they changed it from 'gay' to 'fat' and they were on any other kind of message board, they'd understand why I do it, I hope, but sometimes you have to push on even if you feel like the lone voice in the wilderness, ya know?


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## superodalisque (May 6, 2008)

i think being feminine is about being who you are unapologetically. and also not hiding your light under a bushel because you might be too much for daily consumption. in other words someone who isn't afraid to work it, whatever that IT may be.


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## PolarKat (May 6, 2008)

olwen said:


> It isn't pointless. The fact that you are saying anything now at all about how you feel inspires discussion. People who read this WILL think seriously about what you say.
> 
> I see your point here and I agree. If that attitude offends, then be vocal about it and get the other BHM's who share your view to be vocal about it as well. The reason it doesn't fly with the women is because we're all very vocal about it. We just don't let it lie, especially here, because part of the reason Dims exists is to be in a safe place away from that attitude. We can all be either angry and defeatist or we can be angry and active. Your choice. I for one choose angry and active.
> 
> ...





Butch said:


> I don't always stick up for fat men (and should remind myself to do so more often), but I have done it in the past here at Dims, so I agree with olwen-don't be afraid to tell us how you feel.
> 
> I speak up a lot when it comes to gay issues, and I probably annoy some people with it, but so be it. If they changed it from 'gay' to 'fat' and they were on any other kind of message board, they'd understand why I do it, I hope, but sometimes you have to push on even if you feel like the lone voice in the wilderness, ya know?



As per offending:

I didn't have a chance to get to this in the morning, so I seemed to have made Jay who posted the comment think he offended me, and he offered an appology, I told him that there's none needed, becuase it didn't actually offend me.

I was using it as a comparison to the other guys post in the "why you here" topic.. Both the posts were stating personal preference. These are internal things to us that we don't really have controll over. Be it a preference for fat, same sex, thin etc.. You can't just flick a switch and voila.. In as much as I find spiders sexually repulsive. I can say I find spiders repulsive, in the context of sexual preference. The guy on the other thead said he didn't like large women specifically

"I don't and can't find everything about the large woman's form to be pleasant. I respect your right to be fat, I respect your right to enjoy that fact, I respect that there are other people who enjoy it too...
"
Jay sad something along simmilar lines, he just said it in the inverse, he stated the he found the male "muscular' form to most appealing to him.

I don't see anything wrong with either statement. Neither deserves any sort of critique.. what I did find wrong was that people stepped up to tear a new one on one person who probably didn't deserve it, yet the other was ignored.. question is why?

as per vocal:
It's kinda proven pointless here. The main one is someone goes off and says "fat men have it easy and are accepted" then bring up the seth rogan/john candy, we just loose that argument in seconds..


And finally on Topic:

I define feminine characteristics as the listener, comfort, stabilty, the fragility of glass, and the strength of a diamond..

Feminine features: warm eyes, and soft lines like a charcoal drawing..


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## olwen (May 7, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> as per vocal:
> It's kinda proven pointless here. The main one is someone goes off and says "fat men have it easy and are accepted" then bring up the seth rogan/john candy, we just loose that argument in seconds..
> If that hasn't been your experience in life, you should say that but _really well_ Be descriptive, use examples. I like examples.
> 
> ...



Seems like strength is the underlying characteristic that everyone is talking about....strong on the inside and soft on the outside...


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## PolarKat (May 7, 2008)

olwen said:


> Seems like strength is the underlying characteristic that everyone is talking about....strong on the inside and soft on the outside...


(Accepted thing I went over a bit on the FFA forum)

My grandmother had pretty much defined my idea of feminine, pretty much all of her family was killed in the war, she spent the rest of the war as a partisan fighter, after the war she was the head of a workers union in the communist block, and all this while raising her child. She was the kindest most soft spoken person I ever knew, you could talk to her about anything. She was also feircely independant, and stone cold when she had to be. She had this balance of soft and hard.. the glass and the diamond


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## Dr. P Marshall (May 7, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> In this thread someone posted the following
> 
> Nothing really wrong with this, it's his opinion, as a fat guy I don't agree, I can understand the logic behind it etc..
> 
> ...



I'm not a BBW, but I will say this about your two examples. I have seen many things expressed on this board in many places that in one way or another could be offensive to some other group on the board. The thing is, most of the time they are not challenged, because they're in a certain context. Jay(I believe it was) answered the question of this thread. He was honest, and part of the thread was to see the differing opinions. I don't fit his description of femininity, but that's true of pretty much every male FA here and I like a lot of them and don't take it personally. Why would I? As an FFA I make comments about BHM all the time that could potentially offend a thinner man. Yet they don't get mad at me or challenge me. Why would they? We're just stating our preferences and if anything as male and female FAs we understand those preferences and all the things that go along with holding those preferences. We have more in common than we have differences in many ways. 

But the thing is, I can express my preference without in any way implying that thin men are unattractive. I don't think they are. And even if I did believe such a thing, I could choose not to focus on that aspect of things. I could just applaud fat men and not discuss thin men at all. Jay expressed his preference respectfully and in a thread that is asking that topic, I just did the same. The problem with Forgotten Futures post in the "Why are you here??" thread is again CONTEXT. He went into a thread that was discussing an episode in this community that caused a lot of feelings of betrayal. It was about people they thought were their friends actually displaying not a preference, but deep negative feelings and doing it in a manner that was, as I understand it, very cruel. I have not read the PMs in question, but I gather it was very hurtful language. Now, to go into a thread like that where people are venting their anger and pain and to throw in your two cents that you hold some of those feelings yourself, AND you're supposed to be an FA(i.e. part of this community) that seems more than a little odd. It was like a mini version of the original insult all over again. It was not the type of comment that was going to make people feel LESS paranoid about who might really be posing as a pro fat ally. It was a really bad idea. He could not have picked a worse time and place to say that. I'm guessing he could have probably said a similar thing in a thread about some other topic, maybe something on the Weight Board about what size woman you prefer or something like that and most people would not have gotten angry. But really to reinforce the ideas that these two had caused so much pain by expressing was a bit much. I think that's why he got such a violent reaction. It seemed more like a "kick them while they're down" situation. Although, to be fair to Forgotten Futures, I don't think he meant it that way, I think he just wasn't thinking very clearly. I mean him no disrespect. 

The point is I don't hunt down every thread or post where someone attacks thin women or even if they say that we are inferior. I don't want to. It makes no sense. I would be a hypocrite as an FFA, first of all and secondly this is a site for fat people and their admirers. I understand that when an FA says he feels the way he does about fat women it doesn't mean necessarily that he thinks I have no right to exist or that I'm not really a woman or whatever. (There are a couple here who feel that and I am aware of them and I just don't read their posts.) But most of the time I assume a male FA is my male counterpart. He finds fat attractive, it's his preference, he likes thin women just fine, he just doesn't find us attractive. If he's a cool guy, maybe he'll be my buddy. You know, I see it like that. I don't think most of the thin FAs are trying to offend the BHM, I really don't. They just want to express their admiration for fat women and if they are thin and like contrast, that is what they are talking about. There are BHM/FAs who post here all the time on the main boards and no one seems to treat them badly. There doesn't seem to be any thin FA/fat FA rift. I'm sure the same is true of the attitudes of most of them towards the BHM. This should be a place where all fat admirers admire fat people. Of course because we have both genders there are going to be times where we are at cross purposes in terms of our views on what is feminine or masculine or attractive. But what happened in the other thread would be more akin to a thin FA going to the BHM board and posting critical comments under all the pictures or saying that BHM are OK, but SSBHM are not. It would be more like that. YOu really have to take the context into account here at Dims. What is honest and interesting in one thread can be downright hurtful and insensitive in another. Knowing the difference and when to post which thoughts, I think, makes the difference between having interesting discussions and a sense of community versus starting fights or hurting feelings. Again, I don't think Forgotten Futures meant to be hurtful and I am not trying to slam him in any way. I just think the reaction he got had more to do with WHERE and WHEN he posted.


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## Fascinita (May 7, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> In reality I'm just curious what the BBW's think.. but alas... I doubt I'll get any answer..



I was bugged by the post in question, too, though I don't disagree that the poster was generally respectful in his choice of words.

What bothered me about it is that it seemed to me to be couching personal preferences in terms of what biology has determined. Anytime I hear those kinds of arguments made, I start to get uncomfortable.

I don't think all bodies, whether male or female, are meant to be of approximately the same size. I think there is a natural variety of sizes in either case. Fat men are just as masculine as thin men, generally speaking. There are some feminine fat men, to be sure, just as there are some feminine thin men.

For the record, too, I never think it's an insult toward a man when it's said that he is feminine. Too much value is placed on masculinity while femininity is devalued in our culture, generally speaking.


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## Raqui (May 7, 2008)

I guess one who have to think what they consider feminie. I personally have my own thoughts that have changes through the years.

I used to think long hair determined it. but that has changed.

I used to think big breast did, but that has changed

I used to think that the slimmer dancers body was feminie. that has changed.

I cant even pick a characteristic anymore phisically. 

I know i perfer rounder shapes. Bodies with curves and dips and hollows.

But I cant pick one physicall attribute that just squeals feminine.

to me being feminine is a state of mind. It is a way you are and either big or small cannot determin it. Even someone with a very slim square body has seemed suddenly feminie in my eye because of the attitude. 

Raqui


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## PolarKat (May 7, 2008)

Need to change my Alias to the "Derailroad guy!"


Dr. P Marshall said:


> I just think the reaction he got had more to do with WHERE and WHEN he posted.


Unfortunately I have to make this quick dims got blocked @ work as Pr0n, so I might forget a few ponts..

There's a bit of backstory here that you're missing out on, but I picked Jays post because it's the closest example I could find at the time. I ddin't want to go back in time to dig up more relevant stuff.
There's also perception involved, and even if FF had posted that..(outside the weight board because there's no flaming allowed there anymore). He would have been attacked, nowhere near as violently but there's a few who would pounce. 
Back to the perception. Look at Lilly's responce to mine on the thread, you can't even correlate what she had read anywhere near to what FF said. FF express his opintion as any good engineer would, he was to the point and narrowed the criteria.. my perception I assume he's either an engineer or scientist his post fits that desctription. Jay is talking like he sees it, he's a very social fellow, both peoples *ntentions* were benign.

The insertion of negativity was done somwhere between the readers display and brain. People didn't step back and take the beneifit of the doubt.. The attacked soley on thier perceptions. There's also another thing here at dims people don't critisize others for their preference, people will go out of their way to point that out.. but there does seem to be a carte blanche for some people to attack others over preference without interference..





Fascinita said:


> I was bugged by the post in question, too, though I don't disagree that the poster was generally respectful in his choice of words.
> 
> What bothered me about it is that it seemed to me to be couching personal preferences in terms of what biology has determined. Anytime I hear those kinds of arguments made, I start to get uncomfortable.


You would agree that the negative part was infered by you. I know his post was not PC, but did you get the feeling he wasn't really out to insult anyone?



Fascinita said:


> For the record, too, I never think it's an insult toward a man when it's said that he is feminine. Too much value is placed on masculinity while femininity is devalued in our culture, generally speaking.



err.. It's touchy subject with fat guys who've had moobs from early on. But character wise it's healthly to have a balance of both in both genders. I think otherwise you won't be as capable of of a person


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## Fascinita (May 7, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> You would agree that the negative part was infered by you. I know his post was not PC, but did you get the feeling he wasn't really out to insult anyone?




I'm not sure I can say anything I didn't already say about this. If you have a specific question about what I said, I'd be happy to try to answer. I'm having a hard time following your points. Sorry.


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## Brach311 (May 7, 2008)

Feminine to me...

She walks with confidence.

She is stylish and dresses with class.

Her smile is enchanting but her eyes can turn men to dust if she so chooses.

Talking about something that is pure feminine that guys dont do well at all are the looks. Has anyone noticed that women can communicate with their eyes in an unspoken language....They say things like "Kiss me." "F*uck me now" as well as the looks that could kill. Anybody know what I'm talking about?


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## olwen (May 7, 2008)

OMG, Dr. P, Fascinita, and Raqui Thank you! (see posts #71 and #72) I'd rep you all if I weren't out for the day.

Raqui, btw, your description was perfect, you said a lot with so few words. I liked it very much because it gives me perspective.


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## OneWickedAngel (May 7, 2008)

Brach311 said:


> Feminine to me...
> 
> She walks with confidence.
> 
> ...


 
You mean that soul withering, totally emasculating, raised eyebrow a man receives from his woman just before the ephinany that perhaps getting his beloved a Dyson vacuum for an anniversary gift maybe wasn't a good idea after all - _that_ killer look?


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## Raqui (May 8, 2008)

olwen said:


> OMG, Dr. P, Fascinita, and Raqui Thank you! (see posts #71 and #72) I'd rep you all if I weren't out for the day.
> 
> Raqui, btw, your description was perfect, you said a lot with so few words. I liked it very much because it gives me perspective.



I just threw my thoughts in because everyone seemed to handle all the rest LOL HUGS  Raqui


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## Ernest Nagel (May 8, 2008)

This is all _good_. Thanks everyone! I wanna try another "is... as... to" 

Femininity is to female as life is to the sun. 

The sun and a biological woman are both physical entities, viewable and finite. Life is all the miracles that are made possible from the sun's energy, everything we can and can't see. The existence of nearly all life on this planet, whether we can see the connection or not, is inherently solar-centric.

Femininity is similarly any and everything that radiates from the female body. Any aspect that emerges from the female anatomy, particularly the brain, is feminine. We just may not always see or understand it's femininity. Just as the sun's output is not all rainbows and roses, feminine energy can be expressed as cupcakes or cankles, comfort or criticism. Since we all emerge from mothers we are all feminine to some degree, if only by virtue of owing a woman our existence.

I think wanting to define feminine energy (femininity) is just a subverted way of wanting to control or own it. Feminine energy wants to move about freely, where it's wanted and cascade from its' own abundance. Male energy (masculinity) seeks direction and goals; it's restless if it's not working or going somewhere. One last try- femininity is to masculinity as tides are to a railroad.

Too new agey? Sorry, I just got some good news and I'm kinda giddy.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 8, 2008)

Lack of penis

should probably be the #1 answer, but I have not seen it yet LOL
_____________________________________________________

I don't know if you still qualify, Mossystate... how far along are your _procedures_?  

xo :happy: {{{Monique!}}}


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## olwen (May 8, 2008)

Sharleen, what if you're living as a man but you feel like a woman? Having a penis doesn't do much to help you figure out this stuff.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 8, 2008)

olwen said:


> Sharleen, what if you're living as a man but you feel like a woman? Having a penis doesn't do much to help you figure out this stuff.



It wasn't a serious answer. I actually don't care.


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## olwen (May 8, 2008)

Ernest Nagel said:


> This is all _good_. Thanks everyone! I wanna try another "is... as... to"
> 
> Femininity is to female as life is to the sun.
> 
> ...



Exactly that. I think starting this thread was a way for me to do try to do that. Sometimes I just don't feel like I own my femininity because of my size. I've been reminding myself that fat women are VERY feminine just because. Does that last bit make any sense?


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 8, 2008)

olwen said:


> Exactly that. I think starting this thread was a way for me to do try to do that. Sometimes I just don't feel like I own my femininity because of my size. I've been reminding myself that fat women are VERY feminine just because. Does that last bit make any sense?



It does in the sense that estrogen is located primarily in fat deposits. More fat deposits = more estrogen. 

There's your serious answer


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 8, 2008)

PolarKat....if JayinBuff's post about the male form bothered YOU so much... then why didn't YOU address it? Instead of becoming annoyed at all the BBWs for not jumping him for you? (Or that is what I'm getting out of your posts anyway)


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## William (May 8, 2008)

Hi GEF

Jay's post was just as silly as saying that only slim curvy women are attractive and You have to remember that Jay is a newcomer here. Also he did say it was just his opinion.

William





Green Eyed Fairy said:


> PolarKat....if JayinBuff's post about the male form bothered YOU so much... then why didn't YOU address it? Instead of becoming annoyed at all the BBWs for not jumping him for you? (Or that is what I'm getting out of your posts anyway)


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 8, 2008)

William said:


> Hi GEF
> 
> Jay's post was just as silly as saying that only slim curvy women are attractive and You have to remember that Jay is a newcomer here. Also he did say it was just his opinion.
> 
> William



And it's just my opinion that a man should be able to stick up for himself if something bothers him THAT much. Sorry William...I don't look to others to fight my battles for me...anywhere. Nor do I attempt to insinuate that others who STICK UP FOR THEMSELVES are wrong for not doing it for me, as well.

He isn't THAT new....I have seen him around. He seems to do okay asking the questions about the behavior of BBWs when they are hurt/angry...yet he is "too new" to question another man on these boards? Sorry, that ain't flying with me.


Why does he seem annoyed with the women that "didn't defend him" more than the MAN that made the statement?


Wow...this goes back to my earlier post in this thread. I fucking can't stand it when I perceive a man attacking/blaming women for his own shortcomings.


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## William (May 8, 2008)

Hi 

I meant that Jay was new, he join on the April 6th. 

I think that I know PolarKat's problem and that is the chance of a BHM becoming "shunned" if they speak out too much?

There is still a lot of traditional thoughts in Fat Acceptance/admiration that date back to the worse of times 

A BHM could be debating forever to address most of it.

Anyway I have no problem doing my part of protesting 

I either deal with a problem or let it slide and say nothing .

William




Green Eyed Fairy said:


> And it's just my opinion that a man should be able to stick up for himself if something bothers him THAT much. Sorry William...I don't look to others to fight my battles for me...anywhere. Nor do I attempt to insinuate that others who STICK UP FOR THEMSELVES are wrong for not doing it for me, as well.
> 
> He isn't THAT new....I have seen him around. He seems to do okay asking the questions about the behavior of BBWs when they are hurt/angry...yet he is "too new" to question another man on these boards? Sorry, that ain't flying with me.
> 
> ...


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 8, 2008)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> I meant that Jay was new, he join on the April 6th.
> 
> ...




"Shunned" by who? PolarKat doesn't seem to be up on the BBW board much....and if he is, he is certainly welcome to reply as he sees fit within the rules of the forum like anyone else. I really don't think he needs others to speak for him, William.

Once again, he seems to be complaining about the women that stick up for themselves. If he is incapable of doing so for himself due to his fears, then that is HIS problem/responsibility....not everyone elses.


For the future posts....please let PolarKat answer me....because this seems to be turning into a lot of assumption (perhaps unfair assumptions?) about him while he isn't here to answer/speak for himself.


And yes, William, I do agree that you seem to have no issues speaking up for yourself or others


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## William (May 8, 2008)

Well

A person can become "unofficial ignored person" on online communities if they do not tow the party line and that is a fact.

I have been banned in Fat Acceptance areas for simply standing my ground (A BHM viewpoint) and debating in a civil manner.

I try to spread myself around dimensions and not become stuck in the BHM/FFA Board and when I see people make a comparison comments about BBWs and BHMs if I look and see where they spend most of their time posting it basically explains their viewpoint.

William




Green Eyed Fairy said:


> "Shunned" by who? PolarKat doesn't seem to be up on the BBW board much....and if he is, he is certainly welcome to reply as he sees fit within the rules of the forum like anyone else. I really don't think he needs others to speak for him, William.
> 
> Once again, he seems to be complaining about the women that stick up for themselves. If he is incapable of doing so for himself due to his fears, then that is HIS problem....not everyone elses.
> 
> ...


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## PolarKat (May 9, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> PolarKat....if JayinBuff's post about the male form bothered YOU so much... then why didn't YOU address it? Instead of becoming annoyed at all the BBWs for not jumping him for you? (Or that is what I'm getting out of your posts anyway)


Skip back in the thread, it didn't annoy me at all I was just using it as an example.. I'll read the rest of the posts in a bit but there's a much urgent matter I must attend to.. 
In the locked "why" thread you said that you posted a pic thread on the BHM/FFA board.. My brain goes "Pics? huh? when? Didn't notice? Wanna see those pics..".. but you have like a kazzillion posts in your history.. and the search isn't doing much help.. probably less threads in the BHM/FFA section than you have posts.. You know this is YOUR fault I'm going to be scouring through the threads


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## PolarKat (May 9, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> "Shunned" by who? PolarKat doesn't seem to be up on the BBW board much....and if he is, he is certainly welcome to reply as he sees fit within the rules of the forum like anyone else. I really don't think he needs others to speak for him, William.
> 
> Once again, he seems to be complaining about the women that stick up for themselves. If he is incapable of doing so for himself due to his fears, then that is HIS problem/responsibility....not everyone elses.
> 
> ...


I speak up, no issue with it all.. Yes it is too much assumption
William is on about the same wavelength as me. There's this suttle hipocrysy/double standard that's just hovering on the edge of "size acceptance" as I've seen it here on Dims since I first showed up. I need to state that it's not a majority thing, but a vocal minority, and a silent majority.
[Rant mode enabled] 
The only issue is once I speak up, the other parties that join in to take the opposing view to me, quickly drop all decorum.. some start speaking in cryptic passages with yiddish tossed in.. it's like tag team wrestling with 4 year olds.. at a yashiva. So it became quite futile to actually have an intellectual debate, when you present a set of points for a counter argument, and the rebuttle is "oy-vay" [queue up the havanagilla!]
[Rant disabled]
I still wanted to air out that debate so I tried a different approach, wait for a guy to post his preference in the oppsite sex that doesn't conform, let him get flamed and bring up the inverse that was posted recently and ignored.. and get opinions to hash it out instead of enter a debate that will just get overrun by immaturity

The concept of size acceptance is just that, to accept any person of any size as equal, such includes their preferences. At dims I've only seen size gender acceptance. Where peoples perceptions, and not fact or reality fill in blanks, like your perception that the BHM/FFA board has become a thin girl is in thing, and my being taunted for years about being "girly" because of moobs. your perception has led you to stop being as active in the forum, mine (if I still had an issue with it) would have me read more into what Jay said then what's actually there. What you find offensive I won't notice, or worse yet I might percieve as biggotry, just as the opposite is true. Of course on this place where baggage comes by the ton it resullts in a mob rules reaction..Our mob is much smaller, so we'll never be able to get a point across in all the noise.
It doesn't really matter though, because if a BBW who's an FFA married to a BHM I believe.. can still post this
"What's the deal Conrad? Wasn't this place made for *US*????",
(and yes the context was that Dims was specially for the BBW's only "they are the stars")thus place BHM/FFA's in the "Them" category, then the two communties really aren't in much shape to actually interact on anyting more than a superficial level.. Even us invading the main boards won't change much, we'll just attract hostility from the fringes when we do speak, while the majoity just won't get what we're offended by and remain silent, or worse yet assume we're just picking on someone for nothing, and join the fringes..

Hope i haven't bored you to sleep...


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## knottyknicky (May 9, 2008)

ShakenBakeSharleen said:


> Lack of penis
> 
> should probably be the #1 answer, but I have not seen it yet LOL
> _____________________________________________________
> ...






i was so gonna leave this as an answer, but then i thought of all my bisexual femme ex bf's and though "actually, a penis is really irrelevant"



so, yeah.


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## butch (May 9, 2008)

fwiw, one of my favorite threads from the BHM/FFA board was the 'moobs' thread, where the FFAs praised the moob, and some BHM posted pics of their moobs. If you haven't seen it, I recommend that you do.

I like the moob, and I don't equate it with 'girliness.'


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## JayInBuff (May 9, 2008)

I think that PolarKat wasn't upset with my opinion, he was just upset with a seeming hypocrisy. I post my opinion about what I find feminine in women and no one complains, someone else posted their opinion about how he prefers thin women and he gets trashed. Personally I think that the other post was trashed not because of his opinion but because of where he posted that opinion( in the "why" thread)


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 9, 2008)

JayInBuff said:


> I think that PolarKat wasn't upset with my opinion, he was just upset with a seeming hypocrisy. I post my opinion about what I find feminine in women and no one complains, someone else posted their opinion about how he prefers thin women and he gets trashed. Personally I think that the other post was trashed not because of his opinion but because of where he posted that opinion( in the "why" thread)




I don't think it was the fact that Forgotten Future liked thin women that bothered anyone (ahem, don't you think most of us are quite used to the idea by now? )
His post seemed "out of place" and really had some bad timing. I didn't really get his point myself...or see the relevence of it. Perhaps he was "offering support" to the thin women that hurt others? Was he saying "it was okay for them to bash fatties because not everyone likes them" or what? Wtf point he was trying to make...if one at all instead of simply jumping in to stir the pot, it wasn't quite clear. 
There was high emotion in that thread.....NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE FAT WOMEN but because they PRETENDED they did, on this forum and then were caught saying some ugly shit about PEOPLE THEY PRETENDED TO BE FRIENDS WITH. 
That thread wasn't about fat women....but about betrayal. So many in that thread just didn't get it.....
and to make it worse, people kept jumping in and saying "I haven't read the PMs but...." came in to castigate those wishing to express their hurt. 

Then....I come here, see PolarKat not seeming to be really concerned about what happened...not caring about hurt feelings or the board in general. He just kept on about your post.....
Why didn't he address YOU about it? Why use it to put down a group of people when they are already obviously down? 
I don't see the hypocrisy of sticking up for yourself- even if others might not agree. I do see the hypocrisy of putting down others for expressing their opinions yet you remained silent the whole time and then gripe about it in another thread. 
Bad call, IMO, PolarKat.


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## Carl1h (May 10, 2008)

My five year old niece is a tomboy and doesn't want any girly/feminine stuff. She sums feminine up as "pretty" and she'll tell you, she doesn't like pretty.


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## PolarKat (May 10, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I Why use it to put down a group of people when they are already obviously down?


I've fully disclosed my motives, and intentions, and you've arrived at such an assumption of my character. I'll just bow out gracefully... I'll just add that I don't bear you any ill will or anything of the sort, I do enjoy reading your posts, and opinions, but I don't like where this is heading.


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## Lastminute.Tom (May 10, 2008)

I've been trying to answer this thread for days but evertime I get to the end of writing the post I think nah, and leave it anyway, now I'll answer
I think that feminine is one half of the great alpha-omega, yin and yang or whatever you want to call it, basically part of the building blocks of the relative universe, called relative because everything exists as either here or there or the space between, obviously in the equasions masculine and feminine are the here and there, and the space between is where we exist, well most of us, trying to balance oursevles between creation and destruction, love and fear, so I believe feminine, as a state of being, is Creativity and Love which isn't better than the masculine side because without it the feminine side cannot exist.

what I think is feminine physically or in the sense of ones own physicality is different although I know I can only really give my oppinion of feminine form because my judgement is clouded by my sexual prefference, in my oppinion then, feminine physicality is soft curves of any description curves of lips, hips, breasts, thighs, buttocks, bellies, shoulders, curves of hair I guess really I just like my female counterparts well rounded which is why I'm here


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## olwen (May 10, 2008)

Carl1h said:


> My five year old niece is a tomboy and doesn't want any girly/feminine stuff. She sums feminine up as "pretty" and she'll tell you, she doesn't like pretty.



I thought the same thing when I was that age. Wearing a skirt was anathma to me back then. I hated them. I remember being told I had to start wearing a bra around age 9. I was horrified. The smelly old lady in macy's poking and prodding me and telling me that because I was so fat I had to skip the training bra and go straight to a C cup and clicking her teeth at me and shaking her head - Tut tut. I remember that as the moment I HAD to start thinking of myself as distinctly feminine. 

....wow, I hadn't thought of that in ages...



Lastminute.Tom said:


> I've been trying to answer this thread for days but evertime I get to the end of writing the post I think nah, and leave it anyway, now I'll answer
> I think that feminine is one half of the great alpha-omega, yin and yang or whatever you want to call it, basically part of the building blocks of the relative universe, called relative because everything exists as either here or there or the space between, obviously in the equasions masculine and feminine are the here and there, and the space between is where we exist, well most of us, trying to balance oursevles between creation and destruction, love and fear, so I believe feminine, as a state of being, is Creativity and Love which isn't better than the masculine side because without it the feminine side cannot exist.
> 
> what I think is feminine physically or in the sense of ones own physicality is different although I know I can only really give my oppinion of feminine form because my judgement is clouded by my sexual prefference, in my oppinion then, feminine physicality is soft curves of any description curves of lips, hips, breasts, thighs, buttocks, bellies, shoulders, curves of hair I guess really I just like my female counterparts well rounded which is why I'm here



So, if I understand you Tom, you're saying that feminine and masculine are really similar yet opposite, both something and nothing, and as such it doesn't matter what attributes we apply to either because they're neither here nor there, thus making this whole question irrelevant?


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> "What's the deal Conrad? Wasn't this place made for *US*????",
> (and yes the context was that Dims was specially for the BBW's only "they are the stars")thus place BHM/FFA's in the "Them" category, then the two communties really aren't in much shape to actually interact on anyting more than a superficial level.. Even us invading the main boards won't change much, we'll just attract hostility from the fringes when we do speak, while the majoity just won't get what we're offended by and remain silent, or worse yet assume we're just picking on someone for nothing, and join the fringes..
> 
> Hope i haven't bored you to sleep...




I actually addressed this up in that other thread when an FFA was upset by it. It went back to what you said about perceptions based upon experiences.When I first read it, I didn't take it the same way as she had. When I understood how/why it had bothered her, then I saw her point of contention (and told her I agreed). 
I suppose my point is that anyone on this board can be posting from a point of hurt, upset and low-self esteem. Didn't see it as fair to bash one particular group for it.


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## PolarKat (May 10, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I actually addressed this up in that other thread when an FFA was upset by it. It went back to what you said about perceptions based upon experiences.When I first read it, I didn't take it the same way as she had. When I understood how/why it had bothered her, then I saw her point of contention (and told her I agreed). .


I suppose my point is that anyone on this board can be posting from a point of hurt, upset and low-self esteem. Didn't see it as fair to bash one particular group for it.[/QUOTE]

Had to go back and read, didn't notice first time around..



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I suppose my point is that anyone on this board can be posting from a point of hurt, upset and low-self esteem. Didn't see it as fair to bash one particular group for it.



This is exacty what I'm trying to point out. to recycle your quote..

"anyone on this board can be reading a post from a point of hurt, upset and low-self esteem. Didn't see it as fair to bash one particular group for it.."

And here is the double standard..
When a BBW thats an FA posts "It seems like Fat guy like like Fat women" as part of post where they're expressing thier frustration, no BHM will jump over, and start kick then when they're down.. Most people will identify the "point of hurt".. 

(digging up the past) if you could please take a look and comment..

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177083


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 10, 2008)

PolarKat said:


> This is exacty what I'm trying to point out. to recycle your quote..
> 
> "anyone on this board can be reading a post from a point of hurt, upset and low-self esteem. Didn't see it as fair to bash one particular group for it.."
> 
> ...




You keep saying "double standard" or "hypocrisy"...so what is your main point here? That men are victims of women? That women have "wronged" the fat men on this board? 
Some of the fat guys on this board....they like thin women. They only post on the BHM board. They only "speak up" for themselves or other BHMs.....
I don't see you saying "double standard" or "hypocrisy" to the males in that thread.....


ON occasion, BHMs do go up on the other boards and complain about BBW not liking them......the women respond about everyone being entitled to their preferences. You seem bothered that the women defend or express themselves...and leave the menfolk to do the same for themselves. 

PolarKat...can you show me one example of a past post on this board where you "defend" a BBW when she is hurt about someone preferring a thinner female form? 
If you cannot...then what is your point? Expecting things from others that you cannot deliver yourself....that is hypocrisy or a double standard.

So, if a man does it, it's okay? or is it only wrong if a BBW does it? I keep getting your standards mixed up, it seems......


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## PolarKat (May 10, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> You keep saying "double standard" or "hypocrisy"...so what is your main point here? That men are victims of women? That women have "wronged" the fat men on this board?
> Some of the fat guys on this board....they like thin women. They only post on the BHM board. They only "speak up" for themselves or other BHMs.....
> I don't see you saying "double standard" or "hypocrisy" to the males in that thread.....
> 
> ...



we don't seem to walk into a thread where someone is sharing thier feeling/experince, and find 1 item in what they said just to post something negative at them.. does that make any sense?

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40637
Page 3 & 4,
so you think my response to Lisa should have.. "It's their right to overlook you! they don't have to be sexually attracted to fat women, and don't owe you an explination, solace or even the time of day.. duh.. get over it already"

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40861
Pg 1 & 2, Riply and me...
Shoud I have said.. "You're goimg tell me what I have to prefer!! Its is not a matter of me not wanting to date big, because I am big.Having said that, I have been attracted to a few larger women, but overall, I am attracted to women smaller than moi...and thats what makes the world so grand..we all like what we like..*S*"

You are trying hard to drive the point to me that this is proper behavior.. Am I missing something here.. Or is this some sort cultural divide? If this is proper ettiqutte on Dims, Then I agree there's no issue at hand, and I'll start to join in..


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## olwen (May 10, 2008)

...and now that this thread has been thoroughly hijacked...

trying to follow this exchange is starting to give me a headache. If anyone else has any thoughts about femininity other than any seeming social hypocrisy or reverse gender imbalances, please post.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 10, 2008)

olwen said:


> ...and now that this thread has been thoroughly hijacked...




Sorry Olwen :blush:


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## olwen (May 10, 2008)

...I really have been trying to follow the argument going on here, but I feel like I'm missing some things. Of course I don't have the sense of history about the place that you two do, but the points being made seem to be both obviously ridiculous and ridiculously obvious on both sides - at least I think they do, I'm honestly not sure I have my bearings here... I don't understand really why some of the BHMs feel so strongly that their POV gets ignored or burried within the SA movement...from the outside looking in on this particular issue I would think logically that if they spoke up more or more often en masse or if they articulated themselves better this wouldn't be an issue. On the surface it sounds like a "poor me" attitude, which smacks of, well, BHM's being fragile flowers on the edge of emotional collapse...sorry guys I calls em as I sees em (PM me with your contrary opinions, I know there will be many). But that's a topic for another thread....




Maybe this whole exchange has been about it being a masucline/feminine thing. Maybe women just are better at expressing themselves directly in certain ways and men are not. Maybe I'm lacking perspective on the whole issue....so my fellow Dimmers I want to know what is feminine to you.


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## William (May 10, 2008)

Hi Olwen

No one needs to be intimidated on Dimensions, I have been in Fat Acceptance areas where "I being the decenting one" was surrounded and attacked by the regulars for disputing the party line 

I really did not care because if a group of people are not open enough to carry on a two way conversation then who cares if they like you.

William





olwen said:


> ...I really have been trying to follow the argument going on here, but I feel like I'm missing some things. Of course I don't have the sense of history about the place that you two do, but the points being made seem to be both obviously ridiculous and ridiculously obvious on both sides - at least I think they do, I'm honestly not sure I have my bearings here... I don't understand really why some of the BHMs feel so strongly that their POV gets ignored or burried within the SA movement...from the outside looking in on this particular issue I would think logically that if they spoke up more or more often en masse or if they articulated themselves better this wouldn't be an issue. On the surface it sounds like a "poor me" attitude, which smacks of, well, BHM's being fragile flowers on the edge of emotional collapse...sorry guys I calls em as I sees em (PM me with your contrary opinions, I know there will be many). But that's a topic for another thread....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PolarKat (May 10, 2008)

olwen said:


> ...I really have been trying to follow the argument going on here, but I feel like I'm missing some things. Of course I don't have the sense of history about the place that you two do, but the points being made seem to be both obviously ridiculous and ridiculously obvious on both sides - at least I think they do, I'm honestly not sure I have my bearings here... I don't understand really why some of the BHMs feel so strongly that their POV gets ignored or burried within the SA movement...from the outside looking in on this particular issue I would think logically that if they spoke up more or more often en masse or if they articulated themselves better this wouldn't be an issue. On the surface it sounds like a "poor me" attitude, which smacks of, well, BHM's being fragile flowers on the edge of emotional collapse...sorry guys I calls em as I sees em (PM me with your contrary opinions, I know there will be many). But that's a topic for another thread....


I'm just expecting an level of common courtesy, politnes.. "Have nothing positive or constructive to add then keep you mouth shut thing.."
Doen't matter I'll modify my behavior accodingly.. sorry for taking over you thread..




olwen said:


> ...
> Maybe this whole exchange has been about it being a masucline/feminine thing. Maybe women just are better at expressing themselves directly in certain ways and men are not. Maybe I'm lacking perspective on the whole issue....so my fellow Dimmers I want to know what is feminine to you.



What masculinty can't comprehend??


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## olwen (May 10, 2008)

::sigh:: PK, comprehension and expression are two different things....But there is a what is masculine thread. That discussion should continue there....but right now, my brain needs a break.


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## Lastminute.Tom (May 15, 2008)

olwen said:


> So, if I understand you Tom, you're saying that feminine and masculine are really similar yet opposite, both something and nothing, and as such it doesn't matter what attributes we apply to either because they're neither here nor there, thus making this whole question irrelevant?



Yes exactly.
"the universe is slowly collapsing in on itself thus rendering any further human endevour ultimately pointless" (Bill Bailey, Part Troll)

so no it doesn't matter what attributes or energys or whatever you apply to the concepts of feminine and masculine but I thought that the question was more a sharing of our beliefs, how we percieve the concept we know as "feminine"

I've tried to come up with my own definition of feminine based on what I have observed of human nature, science and spirituality and what feels right to me, now I have closure and I am happy with that and I try to remain as ever balanced in the aspects of my psyche that I deem masculine or feminine.

although I haven't succeeded in adhering to my own definitons because I'm being very defensive of my ideas because I was afraid that by agreeing outright that the question was irrelevant, that would then present my ideas as being irrelevant to me which they aren't but if I was being truly balanced then I would see that it doesn't matter how my ideas are percieved.

oh and bill bailey isn't a theologian or a scientist he's a comedian and that was how he opened his tour "Part Troll" named because of his extensive body hair and how as a child he thought of himself as being part troll. 

and if that didn't make any sense don't worry, as most of you will know by now, in comparison with the vast majority of society I think way to far into things


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## Fatgirlfan (May 19, 2008)

I cannot determine what is feminine to others but I can tell what is for me.
Looks like a woman is the simple answer. I think that fat girls look more feminine.


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## Friday (May 19, 2008)

But that actually has NOTHING to do with the femininity of whomever you are looking at, regardless of their size. It's strictly how YOU perceive them, not about how they are. Especially since you can't tell something so personal just by looking at someone.


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## olwen (May 19, 2008)

I just want to thank everybody for their responses. I've considered them all. I started this thread because I wasn't feeling feminine - becaues of my fat - and I wanted to feel feminine, and I wasn't sure how to think thru it. I've come to the conclusion that it _is _personal and difficult to deconstruct when all the possibilites are considered. I'm happy to say that my fat doesn't make me feminine or masculine or any _ine_. There's no magic formula or secret code. There's no hard and fast rule....it's just a state of being (not necessarily of mind either) that has a certain energy to it that can always be felt but not always seen....Femininity just is.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 19, 2008)

I like what you just said Olwen...and understand. Funny, I don't think of myself as having trouble feeling feminine. My personal issues seem to stem more from not allowing myself to be more feminine...or rather I was afraid to be. It is another one of the changes I have made in myself over the years....I stopped being afraid to "be a woman". But that is just silly when I think about it....I AM a woman...the whole kit and kaboodle. I don't need to squash my feminine "feelings", be ashamed to be a woman, see womanhood as weak....and I damn sure don't need my femininity defined for me. I have realized that, ultimately, I am simply too much woman for some...and that is okay with me.


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## olwen (May 19, 2008)

Ha. I think we're all too much woman for some, but thankfully not here.


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## Fatgirlfan (May 19, 2008)

Friday said:


> But that actually has NOTHING to do with the femininity of whomever you are looking at, regardless of their size. It's strictly how YOU perceive them, not about how they are. Especially since you can't tell something so personal just by looking at someone.



Yep, this my point, feminintiy is mostly how someone is perceived. I think it has less to do with how the person actually is.


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## William (May 20, 2008)

Hi 

Several time in this conversation BHMs have mentioned a "Double Standard"

I think that this is about the fact fat bodies are rejected by society at large as being masculine or feminine. 

In Fat Acceptance and Fat Admiration Fat Women receive support that contests society's opinions. 

I think that Fat Acceptance is still far from the point of supporting Fat Men in the same way.

William


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 20, 2008)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> Several time in this conversation BHMs have mentioned a "Double Standard"
> 
> ...



How so? Examples? Specifics?


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## Tracy (May 20, 2008)

What is feminine? To me being feminine is the inner strength that God has given every woman. That inner strength is what allows us to be nurturing, caring, compassionate, motherly and stronge. Then we express that inner strength through our outward appearance. Whether it be by our personalities, how we dress, how we carry ourselves and the self confidence that we have. When all of these come together we all are great creations of God that are feminine and beautiful. :bow:


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## JayInBuff (May 20, 2008)

My 3 year old daughter can distinguish between a "boy", any male, and a "girl", any female with almost perfect accuracy. How does she do it? It's not hair length, she knows long-haired boys are boys and short-haired girls are girls. It's not facial hair because she can identify boys with beards/mustaches and those without. I don't think its breast because she doesn't know what they are yet. Fat or thin doesn't change the gender for her. The only time she gets confused is if there is an elderly woman with short hair (she thinks they are a boy). So maybe it's a bunch of different factors all together. I've asked her why and she doesn't understand the question. I will continue my "research" and keep everyone informed. Maybe it's the clothes or earings or make-up.


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## PlumBlossom (Mar 4, 2013)

I think about the subject of femininity a lot because it's something I want to be. I'm a female but I don't feel female, I don't feel at all feminine. I am 300lbs, my body doesn't look "feminine", I don't have a "feminine" hour-glass shape. When I'm naked, you can't see curvy "feminine" hips, you can't see curvy "feminine" breasts. I have hormonal problems that make me grow thick black hair all over where no female should have hair. What makes me feminine? I honestly don't know.

I feel that heterosexual males seek femininity in women, femininity is what attracts them. They find large breasts arousing because they imagine the woman would be good for breast feeding if she were to have a child I guess. They find women with curvy hips arousing because the woman looks good for child bearing. It seems to be ingrained in male's brains to seek and be aroused by "feminine" women who show signs of being fertile or show signs that they have good "feminine" hormones.

But what am I then? I have hormonal problems. Maybe I produce more male hormones, I have hair where only males should have hair. Because of my fatness, I'm a big blob of fat with no "feminine" shape for guys to find attractive. My breasts are flat and small, my fat hides any signs of hips, I'm literally just a walking blob of fat. Where is the femininity in that? That's why I struggle in feeling feminine. I try to do things such as try out sexy lingerie and I can't even do that because the lingerie won't fit my blob shapeless body. If I wear a lingerie that fits my boobs, it's not going to fit anywhere else on my body and if I wear something that fits my body, it's not going to fit my boobs. If I wear a good bra that gives my boobs lift, I can't look nice because my shoulders are too fat and broad.

Hope I make sense. Sometimes I look at photos or videos of naked females just to try to understand what guys find attractive, what do guys find attractive? Of course it's the girl's delicate soft features. Feminine soft porcelain hairless skin, delicate soft plump breasts yearning to be caresses, soft delicate curvy hips. Pretty much it's all the same, all guys look for is the "delicate" look. If you look delicate, that's probably what guys consider feminine and attractive. Having delicate porcelain hairless smooth even looking skin, delicate looking wrists, delicate looking plump breasts, delicate hips, delicate looking hair, delicate looking face. Small frame, small shoulders, thin yet long body with plump delicate breasts and plump delicate hips.

I think that's what guys find feminine, what they find arousing in girls. But because I have hormonal problems and I'm fat, I don't have ANY of those "delicate" features, my shoulders are broad because of the thick fat on my arms and sides of my torso and my breasts are too flat and small and ugh. What would a guy find attractive about me if I don't look at all feminine? A non-FA would ever find me attractive and neither will a FA because probably both types of guys look for the same thing, "femininity" and I just don't have it.

These are just the thoughts I struggle with. I struggle with this subject a lot.


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## superodalisque (May 13, 2013)

i think femininity is whatever a woman decides it is for herself. for me it is love beauty intelligence thoughtfulness and strength.


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## loopytheone (May 14, 2013)

I think femininity is entirely subjective so it is a different thing for every person. I'm more than happy to give my two cents though because I like the sound of my own typing!  I also think that there are two ways in which this question can be interpreted, in terms of a feminine personality and in terms of a feminine body. For people who have trouble seeing the difference, a transgender person who is born male but identifies as female likely has a feminine personality and yet, before any hormones/surgery/clothes/makeup is done to make the body appear different, they have a masculine body. It is a bit early in the afternoon for me to have a rant about personality and gender so I'll just stick to what I view a feminine body as.

In our culture, women tend to have long, thick, styled hair, often wavy and present themselves in clothes that do not hide the expanded hips, narrow waist and rounder chest compared to most men. That doesn't mean wearing tight clothes that show it off or anything, just clothes that don't completely disguise this shape. I think feminine legs are the longer, more muscular yet soft type of legs and that the waist to hip ratio is the main aspect that makes a woman look feminine.

Of course, not looking feminine doesn't mean you don't look *beautiful*.


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## olwen (May 19, 2013)

Wow, it's been five years since I asked this question. My answer now is that feminine is not masculine. LOL Seriously tho, that's what I come up with. I also prefer to present much more femme now than I ever did so my wardrobe now consists of pretty dresses, skirts, lots of accessories, appropriate footwear (I can't wear heels tho), makeup and long hair, bangs optional. I actually just donated a garbage bag full of basic t-shirt like tops and pants to the Big Fat Flea. 

My fashion sense and sense of style has evolved quite a bit and of course fat bodies can embody femininity in a way that thin bodies can't. But it's interesting to see how some thin women view large breasts, and voluptuous curves on fat bodies as almost pornographic even if they are covered up.


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## superodalisque (May 19, 2013)

your post made me think that maybe femininity is just us women having fun


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## MillyLittleMonster (May 19, 2013)

Strong, intelligent, fit and independent are my views on what is feminine...
Can't really describe it so I just used them words.
This picture does a good job as well and Leia is a good example of what I listed.


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## loopytheone (May 20, 2013)

olwen said:


> Wow, it's been five years since I asked this question. My answer now is that feminine is not masculine. LOL Seriously tho, that's what I come up with. I also prefer to present much more femme now than I ever did so my wardrobe now consists of pretty dresses, skirts, lots of accessories, appropriate footwear (I can't wear heels tho), makeup and long hair, bangs optional. I actually just donated a garbage bag full of basic t-shirt like tops and pants to the Big Fat Flea.
> 
> My fashion sense and sense of style has evolved quite a bit and of course fat bodies can embody femininity in a way that thin bodies can't. But it's interesting to see how some thin women view large breasts, and voluptuous curves on fat bodies as almost pornographic even if they are covered up.



I can't express how much this post made me smile! You seem to have answered your own question beautifully and I really like the conclusion you have come to. :happy:


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## superodalisque (May 23, 2013)

i just heard someone describe Mae West as someone who flirted with herself. that is a pretty good description of feminine


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## CarlaSixx (May 23, 2013)

I struggle with femininity. I want to try to be more feminine, but I feel awkward and out of place. I'm sick of being written off as a "soft butch lesbian" when that's not what I am. So I've been trying to do things like grow my hair and nails, wear colours and jewelry, etc. It's not working out too well. I kinda feel like I'm losing myself a bit.

Being feminine seems so high maintenance to me


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## loopytheone (May 24, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> I struggle with femininity. I want to try to be more feminine, but I feel awkward and out of place. I'm sick of being written off as a "soft butch lesbian" when that's not what I am. So I've been trying to do things like grow my hair and nails, wear colours and jewelry, etc. It's not working out too well. I kinda feel like I'm losing myself a bit.
> 
> Being feminine seems so high maintenance to me



I went through a phase of trying to seem more feminine as well and it is such a hassle and a pain in the neck. I honestly think that if it isn't something that comes naturally to you or that you enjoy then you won't be able to keep it up for long and it'll cause you more irritation than anything, having to find time for it all. Just stay true to yourself and wear/present yourself in whatever way makes you feel comfortable. Nobody else's opinions matter than your own.


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## superodalisque (May 24, 2013)

maybe the key is it really has to be for you and not other people?


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## Jim Miller (May 30, 2013)

My answer to the topic title is that "feminine" is an illusion. The traits we commonly associate with femininity appear in people of all sexes based on their individual personality traits. Femininity itself is mostly a package for telling females how to live their lives (and males how not to live theirs). I find it refreshing whenever people ditch the whole concept of femininity and just focus on the individual traits that describe _them_.


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## Morganer (May 30, 2013)

CURVES!! Big, BBW-ness CURVES. No flat!

The bigger the better!


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## Morganer (May 30, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> your post made me think that maybe femininity is just us women having fun



Who is Mae West?


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## Diana_Prince245 (May 30, 2013)

Morganer said:


> Who is Mae West?



You're kidding, right?


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## superodalisque (May 30, 2013)

Morganer said:


> Who is Mae West?



google her, especially her quotes and watch a movie or two. she will have you laughing!


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## bigmac (May 30, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> I struggle with femininity. I want to try to be more feminine, but I feel awkward and out of place. I'm sick of being written off as a "soft butch lesbian" when that's not what I am. So I've been trying to do things like grow my hair and nails, wear colours and jewelry, etc. It's not working out too well. I kinda feel like I'm losing myself a bit.
> 
> Being feminine seems so high maintenance to me



Not every female has to be "feminine". There are many alternative ways to be sexy that have nothing to do with femininity. Personally I find bad ass but not trashy (a fine line) very sexy.

Indeed there are many guys who actively steer clear of high maintenance "feminine" types.


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## loopytheone (May 31, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Indeed there are many guys who actively steer clear of high maintenance "feminine" types.



Again, I think that depends on your view of what feminine is. I view myself as being pretty damn feminine but I don't wear makeup, don't style my hair, can't be bothered with fancy/co-ordinated clothes and don't like spending money or going out places, I'd rather stay in and chill. You don't have to be high maintenance to be feminine.


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## olwen (Jun 8, 2013)

CarlaSixx said:


> I struggle with femininity. I want to try to be more feminine, but I feel awkward and out of place. I'm sick of being written off as a "soft butch lesbian" when that's not what I am. So I've been trying to do things like grow my hair and nails, wear colours and jewelry, etc. It's not working out too well. I kinda feel like I'm losing myself a bit.
> 
> Being feminine seems so high maintenance to me





loopytheone said:


> I went through a phase of trying to seem more feminine as well and it is such a hassle and a pain in the neck. I honestly think that if it isn't something that comes naturally to you or that you enjoy then you won't be able to keep it up for long and it'll cause you more irritation than anything, having to find time for it all. Just stay true to yourself and wear/present yourself in whatever way makes you feel comfortable. Nobody else's opinions matter than your own.





bigmac said:


> Not every female has to be "feminine". There are many alternative ways to be sexy that have nothing to do with femininity. Personally I find bad ass but not trashy (a fine line) very sexy.
> 
> Indeed there are many guys who actively steer clear of high maintenance "feminine" types.





Jim Miller said:


> My answer to the topic title is that "feminine" is an illusion. The traits we commonly associate with femininity appear in people of all sexes based on their individual personality traits. Femininity itself is mostly a package for telling females how to live their lives (and males how not to live theirs). I find it refreshing whenever people ditch the whole concept of femininity and just focus on the individual traits that describe _them_.





loopytheone said:


> Again, I think that depends on your view of what feminine is. I view myself as being pretty damn feminine but I don't wear makeup, don't style my hair, can't be bothered with fancy/co-ordinated clothes and don't like spending money or going out places, I'd rather stay in and chill. You don't have to be high maintenance to be feminine.




These posts are all related to what I'm thinking so I stacked them here.

Carla, I had the same issue. I didn't feel feminine for the longest time and it didn't help that people would call me Sir and mistake me for a guy even when I was wearing a dress. I assumed part of that was because fat black women don't tend to be considered sexy...like when a random person thinks sexy someone who looks like me wouldn't come to mind immediately. That's what I thought. 

I had to gradually come to a place where I could enjoy wearing a vintage style dress and feel right in it. I'm also less angry than I was and I think the vibe I put out had more to do with being perceived as masculine than anything honestly. Femme is not just a look, it's that energy too. I think if people get "baby dyke" or "soft butch" vibes from you it's cause you are projecting a lot of masculine energy and that's not a bad thing IMO. I meet lots of women who have that vibe and it's totally hot. I'm also discovering I'm attracted to masculinity regardless of the body. Spending so much time in queer spaces, meeting so many trans people, and kink spaces where I meet a lot of polyamorous people and people who are still forming their sexuality got me to really think about masculine/feminine as constructs in a different way than I had previously. I really think like 80% is the vibe we put out. 

The only simple way to think about it is that feminine is not masculine. A person can mix these energies in any way that is comfortable for them. I know an incredibly hot guy who likes to wear skirts and makeup but he's still very masculine and that fascinates me. It also helps that he's super intelligent and thoughtful. There's no mistaking that this guy is comfortable with who he is and how he projects himself. I admire that. It's like the same way I think Rupaul is both masculine and feminine at the same time regardless of what he's wearing, and that seems perfectly normal to me. 

So yes, not every woman has to be ultra femme and not every man has to be hyper masculine super Dom guy (they can't all be Don Draper. LOL). So if you have a lot of masculine energy right now, I say embrace it and don't worry if you aren't projecting the person you think you should be. A lot of people struggle with gender in one way or another, so you're not alone. You're maybe just in flux and that's okay. Just wear what you wear and be who you are, and you'll eventually come to a place of gender comfort.

I will say tho, that I think the average guy probably likes a femme looking girl but the average girl probably thinks high femme is too much work and opts for something in between high femme and the girl next door. We do things like shave our legs from the knee down, only wear makeup sometimes and even then maybe only lipstick and eye shadow, dress for comfort rather than be on trend and still manage to get that guy who embodies the type of masculinity we are attracted to. And right now the epitome of masculinity is in flux as traditional gender roles are changing, so guys have no choice but to adapt to the types of femininity that women are redefining.


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