# In shock and awe and sort of angry



## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

August 27, 2007



It seemed like a nice frothy summer treat for some hardworking gals at a hard-driving law firm. Instead of hosting another earnest discussion about client cultivation and leadership, the women lawyers group at Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton invited an editor from Glamour magazine. The topic: the dos and don'ts of corporate fashion.



First slide up: an African-American woman sporting an Afro. A real no-no, announced the Glamour editor to the 40 or so lawyers in the room. As for dreadlocks: How truly dreadful! The style maven said it was "shocking" that some people still think it "appropriate" to wear those hairstyles at the office. "No offense," she sniffed, but those "political" hairstyles really have to go.



By the time the lights flicked back on, some Cleary lawyers -- particularly the 10 or so African-American women in attendance -- were in a state of disbelief. "It was like she was saying you shouldn't go out with your natural hair, and if you do, you're making a political statement," says one African-American associate. "It showed a general cluelessness about black women and their hair."



The episode also produced a "mixed reaction" along racial lines, says this associate. "Some [whites] didn't understand what the big deal was ... but all the black associates saw the controversy."



Cleary Gottlieb's managing partner, Mark Walker, who heard about the incident from some of the attendees, also saw trouble. Soon after the event, Walker issued an e-mail that denounced the hair commentary as "racially insensitive, inappropriate, and wrong." Calling the beauty advice "appalling," Walker says, "You don't tell people that their physical appearance is unacceptable, when certain characteristics are associated with a racial group." He asks, "What's the alternative? Straighten or bleach your hair?"



As for the identity of the editor, neither Cleary Gottlieb nor Condé Nast Publications Inc. (publisher of Glamour) would say. Indeed, almost all of the half-dozen Glamour editors contacted for this story professed not to have ever set foot in a law firm. "Cleary what?" asked several.



And Walker says he has no idea whether the editor who sparked all this controversy is a well-known fashionista. Not that Walker would know, even if Anna Wintour herself crossed his path. "Who is she?" Walker asks. "I really don't know people in the fashion industry." (If you have to ask, she's the editor of Vogue.)



So did the Glamour editor realize how many feathers she ruffled? Walker says that the speaker was "spoken to by one of the women partners" and that she sent an e-mail apology. "I assume she was oblivious; I doubt she's racist," says Walker. "She wasn't thinking and said something hare-brained."



Or is that hair-brained?


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## Tad (Sep 18, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> August 27, 2007
> 
> Instead of hosting another earnest discussion about client cultivation and leadership, the women lawyers group at Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton invited an editor from Glamour magazine. The topic: the dos and don'ts of corporate fashion.



As soon as I read the sentence above, I foresaw problems. The difference between what is said in some place like Glarmour, and how people dress and perceive dress in most real world situations is pretty big. The odds of offense just seem amazingly high....

-Ed


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## Renaissance Woman (Sep 18, 2007)

I see your reaction and raise you a :doh: .


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## Jes (Sep 18, 2007)

I remember reading an article somewhere about how, for black women, it's hair, and for white women, it's weight. I think that's simplistic, but the comparison stuck with me. Anyway, I think it WAS a lawyer writing the article, and she talked about going into her firm's bathroom not long after she was hired on, and having a colleague (also black) that she'd better fall in line and straighten her hair. Other (black) women in the bathroom agreed. The stepped-on usually start treating one another in the same way, sadly. Or maybe people just know how to play the game and want to give others a leg up.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 18, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> August 27, 2007
> 
> 
> 
> The episode also produced a "mixed reaction" along racial lines, says this associate. "Some [whites] didn't understand what the big deal was ... but all the black associates saw the controversy."




omg seriously??? my blood started boiling immediatley!!! I love nothing more than a beautiful woman with a nice soft fro and well kemp dreadlocks...but I prefer braids! love them.

How could people not know this is racially charged??? That's like saying all asian women should have spiral curled hair...it just isn't possible and why should anyone have to change.

I babbling like an idiot, but issues of race get my blood boiling and steam coming out my hears....how can people be so ignorant????


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## kr7 (Sep 18, 2007)

Absolute crap!!! You know, aside from the fact that those statements were most definitely unacceptable on a cultural level, I am also heartily sick of having the fashion industry decide what is and isn't appropriate to wear/do in real life. Don't get me wrong. Anyone reading my posts on the fashion board knows that I take lots of pleasure in fashion, style, what have you. However, when someone decides that my (or anyone else's) life needs to revolve around whatever a "fashion maven" feels is the look they like at that moment, well....I say: get a friggin life! If you have too much damn time and money on your hands, get a real job! Go out and get your hands dirty, before you dictate to those who do so on daily bases! Reality check! Friggin reality check!

OK, I better stop now, bcs I am livid and I don't like making posts when I haven't a chance to cool down. I just wanted to add that this thread probably belongs on the main board, because it involves more than just fashion, it encompasses cultural acceptance.

Chris


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## liz (di-va) (Sep 18, 2007)

Where's that from, Ash?


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

liz (di-va) said:


> Where's that from, Ash?



http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1188161099761


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## activistfatgirl (Sep 18, 2007)

The amount of pressure black women face about their hair has always fascinated me (as a child I read something about the fight for "natural" hair and I was astounded--you mean african american women can't wear their hair just the way it is?). Of course, soon it angered me. 

The connections between this and weight and everything else women are expected to do to succeed or be attractive cross all race lines: women are women are women and we're not okay naturally. Though having said that, this is of course a racially targeted thing. That black women are even _LESS okay _naturally than white women.

Anyways, it's not my struggle in some ways. In other ways it is. I suppose I've always felt there's not much I could DO about it I guess. Besides love on all the amazing natural haired girls out there. If there's other suggestions, I'm open.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

activistfatgirl said:


> The amount of pressure black women face about their hair has always fascinated me (as a child I read something about the fight for "natural" hair and I was astounded--you mean african american women can't wear their hair just the way it is?). Of course, soon it angered me.
> 
> The connections between this and weight and everything else women are expected to do to succeed or be attractive cross all race lines: women are women are women and we're not okay naturally. Though having said that, this is of course a racially targeted thing. That black women are even _LESS okay _naturally than white women.
> 
> Anyways, it's not my struggle in some ways. In other ways it is. I suppose I've always felt there's not much I could DO about it I guess. Besides love on all the amazing natural haired girls out there. If there's other suggestions, I'm open.




I think the thing to do for anyone, would be to educate oneself -- and that goes for black women and any other woman -- about the (painful) history behind our hair. I wear my hair natural, though I didn't always...after reading and feeling like if it was going to be straight, it would grow out of my head that way...I stopped relaxing it. I figure, I'm beautiful as is...I think there is just a mass miseducation for alot of women on this subject. And maybe the thinking is that because it doesn't directly affect me, per se, I should have nothing to do with it, and why should I care, when in fact, it's only this sort of ignorance that perpetuates this type of oppression. 

Could you imagine the uproar there would be if blonde women were told they must conform, else their jobs would be at stake?


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## Tina (Sep 18, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> August 27, 2007
> 
> Instead of hosting another earnest discussion about client cultivation and leadership, the women lawyers group at Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton invited an editor from Glamour magazine. The topic: the dos and don'ts of corporate fashion.





edx said:


> As soon as I read the sentence above, I foresaw problems. The difference between what is said in some place like Glarmour, and how people dress and perceive dress in most real world situations is pretty big. The odds of offense just seem amazingly high....
> 
> -Ed


Me, too, Ed. And basically because before that woman let a clueless, perhaps unintentional but nevertheless racist word out of her mouth, it was doomed because the whole thing was sexist. Did they have some editor from GQ out to speak to the men? I doubt it. 

If the powers that be think that some are dressing inappropriately, they need to take it up with the individuals themselves and not have women as a group and AAs specifically, think there is something intrinsically unacceptable about themselves because they, one need lessons on how to dress and two, might not strive to have 'White' hair -- and why should they strive for that anyway? Blech! It reeks. :blink:


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## Tooz (Sep 18, 2007)

I
LOVE
afros/braids/dreads.
Moreover, I love women with them. So many black women tamp their hair down for whatever reason, but I LOVE afros especially. I think they look fantastic, especially when paired with fashionable clothing. (Just my .02.)

The fact anyone would have to fight over something like wearing their hair naturally infuriates me, while at the same time drains my hope for humanity. Few things depress me more than the fact humans are (as earlier said) not okay as they occur in nature.

Sigh.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 18, 2007)

The only thing we can really do as women is, turn off the tv, turn off the radio, read only educating magazines, turn inwards to ourselves and a guide for style and fashion....and then only will we be free of being told we are not ok. In the business world all women are controled. 

Thin women are seen as boy like but if they are too aggressive they are bitchy.

Fat women are lazy.

Black women have bad hair.

Blondes are there for entertainment.

Redheads are the office slut.....etc.

No matter who you are as a woman you will never be good enough...the media will tell you this over and over. Who is the media? Well, where do I start? Let's start with fashion and magazines...ran by GAY MEN for the most part....who of course would prefer if women looked more like pretty boys.

Women are intelligent, yet more sensitive therefore if the machine that be cuts us down and controls us by telling us we are not good enough we are not a threat.

If only women would block out the shit and realise the power we have within us, there would truly be a revolution....same can be said for size. But I'm getting preachy now....so I shall go.

Ash, I can't imagine you with straight hair...that hair in your av is effing hot...don't change it unless you want to! 

God "men" piss me off. And it's not men..not the guys of Dim or even the guys of the world....the patriarchy gets to me...that's what it is. grrrrr.

leaving now......fuming


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> The only thing we can really do as women is, turn off the tv, turn off the radio, read only educating magazines, turn inwards to ourselves and a guide for style and fashion....and then only will we be free of being told we are not ok. In the business world all women are controled.
> 
> Thin women are seen as boy like but if they are too aggressive they are bitchy.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the compliment, suga!  I love my hair...it's not straight, nor will it ever be, so I embrace it!

And it's so true -- society wants you to hate yourself...society wants you to be nipped and tucked, and a size 2 with long, blond hair and blue eyes, and well, I don't fit ANY type of mold.


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## kr7 (Sep 18, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> .......Thin women are seen as boy like but if they are too aggressive they are bitchy.
> 
> Fat women are lazy.
> 
> ...



I do agree.  



> ........ Who is the media? Well, where do I start? Let's start with fashion and magazines...ran by GAY MEN for the most part....who of course would prefer if women looked more like pretty boys......God "men" piss me off. And it's not men..not the guys of Dim or even the guys of the world....the patriarchy gets to me...that's what it is.....



However, I believe that thinking about the issue in this way would be a mistake. Sadly, there is just as many women and straight men in the fashion industry and media as gay men, that would be the first in line to tear another woman down. I think that in the long run it isn't productive or realistic to point a finger at one group and say that these are the bad guys. The reality is that the entire society needs to shoulder some responsibility for such occurences.

Chris


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## kr7 (Sep 18, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> ,,,,,And it's so true -- society wants you to hate yourself...society wants you to be nipped and tucked, and a size 2 with long, blond hair and blue eyes, and well, I don't fit ANY type of mold.



No one fits that mold. That's the truly sad part. Why do people insist on doing this to themselves? *shakes head*

Chris


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 18, 2007)

kr7 said:


> I do agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with the last sentence.

I disagree with the rest. In the fashion industry..as in designers...the ones who pick the clothes to be "in", the ones who pick the models to show off the clothes they deem "in".....do tend to be largley gay men. At least the last time I did research into the topic for a women study class which was admittedly about 3 years ago.

I am not blaming gay men for anything. No. I am explaining there is a group Fashion Designers, that is controlling another group, women (add gay men here too if you would like) via non-sinister means....clothing....it just a small piece of the puzzle. And I stand by what I say...if you would like I can dig up research but it will take a day or so.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> I agree with the last sentence.
> 
> I disagree with the rest. In the fashion industry..as in designers...the ones who pick the clothes to be "in", the ones who pick the models to show off the clothes they deem "in".....do tend to be largley gay men. At least the last time I did research into the topic for a women study class which was admittedly about 3 years ago.
> 
> I am not blaming gay men for anything. No. I am explaining there is a group Fashion Designers, that is controlling another group, women (add gay men here too if you would like) via non-sinister means....clothing....it just a small piece of the puzzle. And I stand by what I say...if you would like I can dig up research but it will take a day or so.



I agree...but Anna Wintour (chief editor of American Vogue) absolutely HATES fat people. In fact, it was talked about on one of her shows...

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/20050915/slide_20050915_102.jhtml


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## Sandie S-R (Sep 18, 2007)

I couldn't agree more with you Ash. As a white bread blonde, I am totally in awe of the incredible braids and dreads that so many beautiful african american women wear. I have noticed that most professional women who sport natural hairdos look proud, confident and regal. About as far from un-professional as one can get. Obviously the woman from Glamour was completly clueless.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 18, 2007)

Some years ago I damaged my hair badly. I got sick and tired of fretting over it so I wore it in extension braids for about two years give or take. Then after the two years I decided to go natural. My hair was about 14 inches long by then and I had no idea how to do my own hair. 

I wore it in a fro and random people would approach me from out of nowhere on the street and tell me how beautiful my grade of hair was. One foreign speaking black woman approached me in a shoe store, glowingly admired my hair, looked me square in the eye and shook her head vigorously saying, "No perm! No perm!" By that time I had already made the appointment to go and have it straightened because I became so frustrated trying to take care of it. I didn't know how to comb it, how to style it, what to use in it. I'd been straightening for so long that I hadn't seen the natural state of my hair since I was a child. There is very little information available that tells how to take care of it beyond someone telling you, "You just have to keep trying different stuff till you find something that works." To keep it from drying out or looking dull I had to use so much product in it that my eyes were burning from it at the end of the day and it was expensive. Every product smelled like coconut.

Meanwhile at work it was a different story. It was clear most everyone liked me better with altered hair, namely my supervisors. That experience has taught me how hostile the environment can be for going natural. Not just the outward attitude expressed by those execs but also the subtleties of a system that caters to and reveres straighter hair while ignoring natural heads altogether in most cases. There is very little effort dedicated to natural hair care compared to the oodles and oodles of solutions to get that new spikey bedhead look. The only information I could readily find on black hair care was how long to leave the relaxer in before the neutralizing shampoo. There was so much drama surrounding going natural that I just gave up. You really have to be convinced and determined to do it which in and of itself is appalling.


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## Jes (Sep 18, 2007)

A friend of mine is a potter (with Ash-like dreads) and she makes these little trays (for soap, or to hold earrings, or whatever) that have this awesome outline of a woman's face/head and she writes: LOVE YOUR HAIR on them. I told her I wanted her to make me one that said: LOVE YOUR ASS. 

At one of her parties, I met a woman who started her own mag (she's in her 20s, I think), called...
er, here it is!http://www.naturallyyoumagazine.com/
Obviously, whitey pointing out a black haircare mag may be patronizing, but it's interesting for the rest of us to look at, I'm sure. The woman's name is Kaya, and if you scroll down, there's a photo with her (hugging another woman--she's on the left). She's really striking.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

Don't mean to be persnickety...but we say locs, instead of dreads or dreadlocks, as there is nothing dreadful about them. 

Lilly - I can understand what you are saying, however I do know professional women with locs and naturals that have to report to work everyday. I could understand how frustrating it could be not knowing where to turn about natural hair care, and I'll admit, that I researched products and salons before I even thought about going natural, because contrary to popular belief, natural hair needs cleaning/maintenance just as much (if not more) as relaxed hair. I haven't started locing just yet, but next year I plan to...Babe says I should now, but I'm still having fun experimenting with styles, though her locs are gorgeous and healthy. Did you ever look online or for books that catered to AA hair in it's natural state? 

Jes - I have used that link for some time now; there is a plethora of info on how to take care of my natural (not yet loced) hair and I love it!


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## kr7 (Sep 18, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> I agree with the last sentence.
> 
> I disagree with the rest. In the fashion industry..as in designers...the ones who pick the clothes to be "in", the ones who pick the models to show off the clothes they deem "in".....do tend to be largley gay men. At least the last time I did research into the topic for a women study class which was admittedly about 3 years ago.
> 
> I am not blaming gay men for anything. No. I am explaining there is a group Fashion Designers, that is controlling another group, women (add gay men here too if you would like) via non-sinister means....clothing....it just a small piece of the puzzle. And I stand by what I say...if you would like I can dig up research but it will take a day or so.



I wasn't questioning your sources.  The point I was trying to make is that it's not good to simply blame some single group. It really is up to everyone to make acceptance be the "norm". How many times do we run into a friend, co-worker, even family member that makes a remark similar to the ones in the OP. It doesn't take a gay man to rip apart another person. It doesn't take a fashion designer either. We need not look further than our immediate surroundings. I am simply saying that a lot more can be accomplished if instead of thinking that this problem is something that "THEY" are responsible for, we recognize that we also need to hold "US" accountable. Hope this was clearer.  

Chris


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## kr7 (Sep 18, 2007)

BTW, guys I don't mean to be nit-picky or rude in any way whatsoever, but could we cut out the racial epithets. I do realize that you're just kidding, and you don't mean anything by it, but it still kind of sucks to read the references to "whitey", "white bread" or whatever (regardless who it comes from). You know that I love you, but pretty please with sugar on top, lets be accepting of everyone.  

Chris


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 18, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Don't mean to be persnickety...but we say locs, instead of dreads or dreadlocks, as there is nothing dreadful about them.
> 
> Lilly - I can understand what you are saying, however I do know professional women with locs and naturals that have to report to work everyday. I could understand how frustrating it could be not knowing where to turn about natural hair care, and I'll admit, that I researched products and salons before I even thought about going natural, because contrary to popular belief, natural hair needs cleaning/maintenance just as much (if not more) as relaxed hair. I haven't started locing just yet, but next year I plan to...Babe says I should now, but I'm still having fun experimenting with styles, though her locs are gorgeous and healthy. Did you ever look online or for books that catered to AA hair in it's natural state?
> 
> Jes - I have used that link for some time now; there is a plethora of info on how to take care of my natural (not yet loced) hair and I love it!



My hair is a very course 4b and feels very hard and dry and yes, I had researched online and didn't find anything that was suitable for me at that time. There is much more information available now but at that time there was very little. My natural hair looks dull and dry to the eye and I was putting baby oil gel in it to keep it from looking dingy. No need to go into the particulars on how awful that baby oil gel is, I know first hand by all the zits on my face but it was the only thing I could find that worked. Alternately, you just don't know what will work on your hair till you try it. What works wonders for Suzie might not work for Pam and so fourth. Also natural hair takes much longer to style and prepare each morning and when you're used to doing almost nothing to your hair each day it's a major adjustment, especially when you don't know what you're doing. Instead of going into it gradually like most folks, I just woke up one day and there I was with 14 inches of foreign substance on my head that I'd never seen before without a chemical or a hot comb in it. 

Plenty of people live happily ever after with natural hair but I was overwhelmed, frustrated, impatient and my shelf was littered in greasy strange smelling products that turned out to be useless to me and taxing on my pocketbook. Add to that my high maintenence aversion so smells and perfumes and it became hopeless for me. I was excluded from using many products that may have been helpful because of the overwhelming fragrances to them. Seriously, I was devastated that I couldn't keep my hair the way it was but I went about it all wrong. It was too much too soon. Better if I had just chopped it all off and started from scratch growing it gradually and learning as I went, something that coincidentally I have been thinking about a lot lately. I'm well aware of the benefits of natural hair, I just wasn't prepared at all for the responsibility.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 18, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> My hair is a very course 4b and feels very hard and dry and yes, I had researched online and didn't find anything that was suitable for me at that time. There is much more information available now but at that time there was very little. My natural hair looks dull and dry to the eye and I was putting baby oil gel in it to keep it from looking dingy. No need to go into the particulars on how awful that baby oil gel is, I know first hand by all the zits on my face but it was the only thing I could find that worked. Alternately, you just don't know what will work on your hair till you try it. What works wonders for Suzie might not work for Pam and so fourth. Also natural hair takes much longer to style and prepare each morning and when you're used to doing almost nothing to your hair each day it's a major adjustment, especially when you don't know what you're doing. Instead of going into it gradually like most folks, I just woke up one day and there I was with 14 inches of foreign substance on my head that I'd never seen before without a chemical or a hot comb in it.
> 
> Plenty of people live happily ever after with natural hair but I was overwhelmed, frustrated, impatient and my shelf was littered in greasy strange smelling products that turned out to be useless to me and taxing on my pocketbook. Add to that my high maintenence aversion so smells and perfumes and it became hopeless for me. I was excluded from using many products that may have been helpful because of the overwhelming fragrances to them. Seriously, I was devastated that I couldn't keep my hair the way it was but I went about it all wrong. It was too much too soon. Better if I had just chopped it all off and started from scratch growing it gradually and learning as I went, something that coincidentally I have been thinking about a lot lately. I'm well aware of the benefits of natural hair, I just wasn't prepared at all for the responsibility.



Wow, I can imagine the frustration...because I actually felt like that when I first began to grow out my relaxer, especially so when it was time for me to shampoo and condition it. I have so much hair and it's very, very, very thick and cottony soft and going from sleek and smooth to now dealing with several different textures at once was awful. So much so, that I cut all of my hair and just started from scratch. I won't lie - it grew quickly, so in know time, I was able to twist it up, pin it back, and set it on 100+ rollers. 

And you are right -- what works for one person doesn't work the another, but I find that to be true of every product, those for relaxed and natural hair alike. Who knows, maybe I'm just pro-natural hair, simply because I know the damaging effects relaxers can have on the hair...that and I think natural hair is quite becoming... I have used Carol's Daughter shampoos and conditioners because my kinky haired friends raved about them, but I didn't care for them...I love the oils though. 

Long story short -- do what feels best for you and if you go natural, I am sure you will still be stunning.


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## liz (di-va) (Sep 18, 2007)

To respond to the original story...the word that keeps floatin through me head is "ignorant"! It's very...ignorant. Ignorant in that -- just to keep everything in legal-land -- 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' way. That editor should have known better.


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## Esme (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, so hopefully it will make sense. If not, please disregard this post. 

I'm appalled by the behavior of the editor in the OP. It shows a distinct lack of knowledge and/or common sense. There's no way you can dictate what nature does to one's hair, and to expect people to alter what nature gave them is unconscionable. Can I understand dictating things like bubblegum pink dye jobs and three-foot mowhawks? Yes. This, however, is an entirely different situation and it's ludicrous to think that a prominent and supposedly educated person wouldn't see the difference here. To me, it's almost archaic thinking, because in an increasingly culturally diverse world, this is a total throwback in no uncertain terms.

It's also strange to me on a personal level, simply because as a young girl I always longed for hair like my African American friends had. I love the fullness and bounce and "presence" of the natural look. It took me a long time to love my fine, sorta straight & sorta wavy hair, but some days, I'd still love some hair that has some heft and texture. 

I have no idea if this made any sense. I hope so.


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## Tooz (Sep 18, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Don't mean to be persnickety...but we say locs, instead of dreads or dreadlocks, as there is nothing dreadful about them.



I did not know that. I will call them that now. @[email protected]


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## HottiMegan (Sep 18, 2007)

I saw how my mom "had" to change when she entered the consulting business in southern california. She was asked to start wearing fake nails. She was asked to highlight her hair and get it styled regularly. All in the idea that she would fit in. My mom is the kind of woman who had hairy pits, and rarely wore makeup and maybe once every 5 years or so wore nail polish. It was weird to see her transform. 
I think every woman should be able to be comfortable in their own clothing/style/skin in teh work place. As long as it's not distracting other workers, then anything reasonable should be allowed. I mean distracting like you smell really bad and people dont want to be around you and stuff like that 

I also am appauled that someone would really think that a natural head of hair (which is really cool looking in my opinion) would be considered a no no. That's just sad. 

Like the others have said, another move of the "brilliant" fashion industry trying to make women feel less than. I love clothes but hate fashion..


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## virgolicious (Sep 19, 2007)

Hi Asha,

Thanks so much for posting the story, so sad that not much has changed in some offices. I am actually dealing with this very thing right now, in terms of wearing my natural hair. I never made any secret of the fact that I had weaves or extensions for the last 5 years, but when it came time to reveal my true hair at work...I wasn't ready for it. It took me two days to stop wearing a head-wrap and actually let everyone see my hair which was in super tiny, single-stranded twist. My fear came from the fact that my hair was so tightly coiled, I really thought people would think I was such a fake (remember that song by Alexander O'Neal) because my hair looks all of an inch long now. Thankfully my best friend who gave me the gift certificate to get the natural do is a Dean at our college, so I didn't really fear any backlash at work. I still recall when I interviewed for a job a week or so after having my nose pierced. I asked the interviewer if it would be a problem for me to wear my nose ring and he said "uh...yes!" I rarely wear my nose ring now because so many people have them, but this weekend when I finally started reviewing my new do to the world I returned to wearing my nose ring. For the first time, I will share my new do with the Dims Board...hope you are looking Kesha.


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## Santaclear (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm extreme, but I've always found conformity of any kind vile. For that reason it took me many years to even warm up to the idea of fashion being OK. (Never mind that I loved hippie fashions and plump/fat girls in worn-out jeans when they were the norm in the late '60s/early '70s. At the time I viewed it as the end of fashion, rather than just another phase.)

It's horrible that this article targets black women's hair. BUT it shows where that magazine's at.


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## cherylharrell (Sep 19, 2007)

Man that is bad. They have no business telling anyone how to wear their hair. If a person wants to wear their hair naturally, then they should be able to do it. How they wear their hair is a part of their personality...


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## Jes (Sep 19, 2007)

kr7 said:


> BTW, guys I don't mean to be nit-picky
> 
> Chris



ok, that choice of words made me laugh, in this context.


----------



## LillyBBBW (Sep 19, 2007)

virgolicious said:


> Hi Asha,
> 
> Thanks so much for posting the story, so sad that not much has changed in some offices. I am actually dealing with this very thing right now, in terms of wearing my natural hair. I never made any secret of the fact that I had weaves or extensions for the last 5 years, but when it came time to reveal my true hair at work...I wasn't ready for it. It took me two days to stop wearing a head-wrap and actually let everyone see my hair which was in super tiny, single-stranded twist. My fear came from the fact that my hair was so tightly coiled, I really thought people would think I was such a fake (remember that song by Alexander O'Neal) because my hair looks all of an inch long now. Thankfully my best friend who gave me the gift certificate to get the natural do is a Dean at our college, so I didn't really fear any backlash at work. I still recall when I interviewed for a job a week or so after having my nose pierced. I asked the interviewer if it would be a problem for me to wear my nose ring and he said "uh...yes!" I rarely wear my nose ring now because so many people have them, but this weekend when I finally started reviewing my new do to the world I returned to wearing my nose ring. For the first time, I will share my new do with the Dims Board...hope you are looking Kesha.



Aww. I can't see the picture.  I'm sure it looks beautiful Kesha.


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## Canonista (Sep 19, 2007)

Renaissance Woman said:


> I see your reaction and raise you a :doh: .



I'll see your :doh: , and raise you a 






IMHO a law firm that would consider engaging in fashion seminars for their employees needs to really rethink their priorities. As a prospecive client that would really turn me off.

...and the OP's hair looks kinda nice just the way it is.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 19, 2007)

Canonista said:


> I'll see your :doh: , and raise you a
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You tryin' to butter me up, Canonista? Cuz it's working...


----------



## kr7 (Sep 19, 2007)

Jes said:


> ok, that choice of words made me laugh, in this context.



Told ya. I have a funny accent.  

Chris


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## Renaissance Woman (Sep 19, 2007)

virgolicious said:


> http://C:\...\admin\Desktop\cleanupcrew.jpg


Want to see the picture! [/WHINE]
Virgo m'dear, you looked gorgeous in person, so I can't imagine a change in hairstyle is going to make any difference to that basic fact. 

This thread reminded of this from Spike Lee's film School Daze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlxI3-8BVKQ

The first time I saw it was a bit of a revelation. I had no idea that a hairstyle choice for black women was such a big freakin' deal. Silly me--I assumed that a hairstyle was just an individual fashion thing for everybody, regardless of their ethnicity.


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## virgolicious (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok, I'm gonna try it again. 

View attachment cleanupcrew.jpg


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## Renaissance Woman (Sep 20, 2007)

virgolicious said:


> Ok, I'm gonna try it again.


Yep. Photographic evidence. Still cute.


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## kr7 (Sep 20, 2007)

OMG, you are stunning! You are one hot mama. I absolutely love your hair. :smitten: 

Chris


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## virgolicious (Sep 20, 2007)

you are both very kind. :bow:


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## cherylharrell (Sep 20, 2007)

You all look great & like you are having so much fun...


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## chickadee (Sep 21, 2007)

I guess they wouldn't like me at that office. My hair is thick and wavy/curly, and the most that I ever do is brush it every day. I get a lot of compliments on it and sometimes people touch it, without my permission.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 24, 2007)

chickadee said:


> I guess they wouldn't like me at that office. My hair is thick and wavy/curly, and the most that I ever do is brush it every day. I get a lot of compliments on it and sometimes people touch it, without my permission.



OMG, THAT WAS THE _WORST_!!!   For the two weeks I had my fro, random people would come up to me and touch my head without asking. I mean they would just walk up to me and without preamble, reach up and cop a feel.  Imagine all day long people are reaching toward your head. That pissed me off so much and I'm such a nice person I never said anything. If I ever go back to natural, if people are rude enough to do that then they clearly won't mind if I dope slap them. Dude, BOUNDARIES!! :doh:


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## Jes (Sep 24, 2007)

i used to get that a lot, too! on the bus. Hmmn. Once, at the grocery store, 3 young girls asked if they could touch it, and I let them. It was very, very cute.


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## Tina (Sep 24, 2007)

That kind of thing happens a lot to pregnant women, too, I hear. Just random strangers grabbing the belly. Womens' bodies have become public property; would anyone do such a thing to a man? (obviously, they cannot get pregnant, but you know what I mean )


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## Pattikake (Sep 25, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> I agree...but Anna Wintour (chief editor of American Vogue) absolutely HATES fat people. In fact, it was talked about on one of her shows...
> 
> http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/20050915/slide_20050915_102.jhtml



I stumbled on this site looking for vintage clothing, and I just happened to read this article. Not only are we African-Americans expected to change our cultural appearances for certain fields of employment, but if society sees that we are a certain size, we are down right overlooked and ignored.

This article was not shocking to me, because I have been told many things about my appearance and not being hired for positions. But, I had to register and respond, because recently, I have started to let my hair grow, and it has grown into an unmanagable mess; I have had to put a perm in my hair to make it straight.

I did made this change, because certain family members and my then boyfriend suggested letting my hair grow. This was a big mistake, and as soon as this perm grows out enough, I am going to cut my hair off, and wear it naturally curly like I have done for the last 3 years.

I remembered that episode of Oprah, and I was not shocked then, because Oprah doesn't like fat people either. 

We need to encourage each other, because we are a community within a community, and no matter what shade of skin or hair texture, we must stand up for what is right. It is our civil right to be whatever it is we want to be, and be treated equal.

Knowing myself as well as I do, I might have demanded that the woman from Glamour magazine come back and give me an apology in the same setting that she offended me. Also, I want to thank you, because I will never look at another Glamour magazine again.

This issue needs to be addressed by a letter writing campaign, and I would be more than happy to jump on the bandwagon.

We need an apology in an article written in the same magazine that gave this offensive lecture.


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 26, 2007)

Tina said:


> That kind of thing happens a lot to pregnant women, too, I hear. Just random strangers grabbing the belly. Womens' bodies have become public property; would anyone do such a thing to a man? (obviously, they cannot get pregnant, but you know what I mean )



I've heard that too from pregnant women about having their belly rubbed without being asked. People think pregnant bellies are cute and somehow feel compelled to put their hand there but completely forget that rubbing up someone on the belly is considered inappropriate behavior for a reason. A persons right to respect doesn't go away just because they are pregnant, fat or of a different race. 

Something that has bugged me for a long time is when people ask me why I chose to sing classical music. What a stupid question. I chose it because it's what I wanted, same as everyone else who chooses classical. What kind of answer are they looking for me to give? I get questions like that from white AND black people so we're all guilty of stereotyping in one way or another. The silliest things elicit mindless commentary and the hair is a big one. You would think after all this time the novelty would wear off and we could all as intelligent women feel like a part of life without Glamour magazine to tell us how unacceptable we are. Stuff like this really makes me angry.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 26, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I've heard that too from pregnant women about having their belly rubbed without being asked. People think pregnant bellies are cute and somehow feel compelled to put their hand there but completely forget that rubbing up someone on the belly is considered inappropriate behavior for a reason. A persons right to respect doesn't go away just because they are pregnant, fat or of a different race.
> 
> Something that has bugged me for a long time is when people ask me why I chose to sing classical music. What a stupid question. I chose it because it's what I wanted, same as everyone else who chooses classical. What kind of answer are they looking for me to give? I get questions like that from white AND black people so we're all guilty of stereotyping in one way or another. The silliest things elicit mindless commentary and the hair is a big one. You would think after all this time the novelty would wear off and we could all as intelligent women feel like a part of life without Glamour magazine to tell us how unacceptable we are. Stuff like this really makes me angry.



I am still really upset about this...so much so that I'm really thinking about writing a letter. Because to be honest, I prided myself in reading a magazine that was all for human diversity and seeing the beauty in EVERYONE -- even in the fashion spreads, they covered plus size women...a huge thing for me. So after these shenanigans...I don't know how likely it will be that I pick up another edition.


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## TearInYourHand (Sep 27, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> August 27, 2007
> 
> 
> 
> "It was like she was saying you shouldn't go out with your natural hair, and if you do, you're making a political statement," says one African-American associate. "It showed a general cluelessness about black women and their hair."



Ash, I'm shocked too. I'm white, and I can't fathom how these women don't get it. As if AA women need to make their hair more "white" (aka relaxed) to be appropriate. Just....wow!


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## stefanie (Oct 4, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Thanks for the compliment, suga!  I love my hair...it's not straight, nor will it ever be, so I embrace it!
> 
> And it's so true -- society wants you to hate yourself...society wants you to be nipped and tucked, and a size 2 with long, blond hair and blue eyes, and well, I don't fit ANY type of mold.



I agree, 100%. It's bad enough when fashion pushes that "ideal" on everyone, but when that kind of thinking gets into the workplace, it's even worse. I'm glad the African-American women spoke up and are doing something about it - too bad *every woman* in the room didn't walk out at that point.


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## Fascinita (Oct 6, 2007)

Tina said:


> That kind of thing happens a lot to pregnant women, too, I hear. Just random strangers grabbing the belly.



To me it speaks to how fascinating the mainstream culture finds the difference in our fat bodies or bodies of color or wherever the difference is. They can't stop looking, pointing or thinking about us. Let's face it, the culture is pretty well OBSESSED with race, just as it is with fat! Secretly, I bet a lot of people wonder what "other" hair and "other" bodies feel like.

I've seen many people eyeing my belly (or my fat arms that I flaunt) and it actually makes me feel kinda proud. Also, my cat loves my fat.


----------



## ksandru (Oct 6, 2007)

My dear, you just tapped into one of the "dark" (no pun intended) secrets of my community! Black Women have always had this debate. Not only about "good" hair, but light vs. dark skin as well. We have more important issues to deal with instead of appearance. My husband is Romanian; therefore, when our son was born, the one thing people focused on was his hair. He has hair like daddy - long, and slightly curly. I can't tell you how many Black women has told me..."oooh, you're gonna have to watch your son when he's a teenager; all the girls will want to have his baby, 'cause he has GOOD HAIR!" I look at them & roll my eyes. We will teach our son to respect women of all races, ages & sizes. I am also telling my son to think of all girls as potentially carrying HIV & to abstain from sex, but if that's unrealistic to ALWAYS protect himself with wearing protection. You know, this may sound harsh, but I can't help but think of my friend whose 15 y.o. son was falsely accused of sexual assault. Turns out the girl was one of those "fast gilrs" and lied because she didn't want her parents to know how promiscuous she is. 

The point of all this is we have alot of work to do to become a society respecting all people. 





Renaissance Woman said:


> Want to see the picture! [/WHINE]
> Virgo m'dear, you looked gorgeous in person, so I can't imagine a change in hairstyle is going to make any difference to that basic fact.
> 
> This thread reminded of this from Spike Lee's film School Daze:
> ...


----------



## GoddessNoir (Oct 7, 2007)

Just came across this post.

I get this all of the time. I have a pretty important (in so far as title) position and I am a tall, fat, nappy headed (and hair dyed bright red!) woman. My organization prides itself on hiring people of all races, sizes, sexual orientations, etc. so within my organization, I am who I am. Almost all of the black women in my company have natural hair, there are plenty of fat people, out gay people, recent immigrants, etc. Its when I go to meetings with city officials or other organizations that I get the stares and (OMG! that big fat chick is director of what? and look at her hair!) 

The hair thing always has been and always will be a debate. My core of friends, my mom (who has the biggest black and white afro) and my beloved wear their hair naturally so, I always have support and encouragement from them but there have been times when I've felt the pressure to conform, to look "like everyone else" because I realize that my natural hair is "political" or "militant" to some people.

One thing that I have noticed, at least in my small corner of Brooklyn, New York, is that there are A LOT more natural people. Like literally, I could walk down the street and see locs, fros, twists, braids, as well as free styles. Since I work in education, I've also noticed that younger people are wearing their hair in more natural styles, not just braided extensions but locs and fros, something I really didn't see as a child. 

I know it is trite but, things will get better as time goes on. Of course there will always be a group of people who won't ever see natural hair as "professional". But, there are people who won't ever see people of color or women or younger people or older people or gay women or gay men as fitting into that "professional" image either.


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## Tina (Oct 7, 2007)

I would love to see that hair of yours, Goddess. I love natural hair, and big 'fros, too. They were really big in the 70's, when I came up, and I've always loved that look, and with the cake cutter in it, too.

Beautiful!


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## kr7 (Oct 7, 2007)

Tina said:


> I would love to see that hair of yours, Goddess. I love natural hair, and big 'fros, too. They were really big in the 70's, when I came up, and I've always loved that look, and with the cake cutter in it, too.
> 
> Beautiful!



This is so fabulous! It really takes me back to my childhood. My mom had a big afro, and I remember hoping that one day, when I was all grown up, I'd wear my hair like that, or even better: in afro pom-poms (hope you all know what I mean). But.....it turned out that my mom was perming her hair to get that look. My hair is just as straight as her's, and it refuses to do anything even remotely similar, out of it's own free will.  

Chris


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## Tina (Oct 7, 2007)

Yes, I know what you mean, Chris. I always thought of them as cute panda ears, but don't know what they're called. My hair has always been straight and I've always wanted very, very curly hair -- corkscrew-curly. But whenever I've curled it to try to get that look I've looked ridiculous, so I've just tried to work with what I have, which is very fine, slightly wavy hair without much body. Bleh.


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## kr7 (Oct 7, 2007)

Tina said:


> ......so I've just tried to work with what I have, which is very fine, slightly wavy hair without much body. Bleh.



I just roll out of bed, and whatever my hair is doing at that moment, is what I go with. LOL! If anyone has a problem with that, well.....they're more than welcome to pay for an expensive stylist's visit for me.  

Chris


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

Tina said:


> Yes, I know what you mean, Chris. I always thought of them as cute panda ears, but don't know what they're called. My hair has always been straight and I've always wanted very, very curly hair -- corkscrew-curly. But whenever I've curled it to try to get that look I've looked ridiculous, so I've just tried to work with what I have, which is very fine, slightly wavy hair without much body. Bleh.



We call them afro puffs. :wubu: As a kid I wanted to wear my hair in afro puffs like all the other girsooo badly but my mom insisted on straightening. Not so much because of any cultural expectations but because the straightened hair was easier to deal with and mom didnt have the patience. I soon discovered that I didn't either and stuck with straightening. I know very little about my own natural hair as a result. I let my braids out and went natural for two weeks and couldn't handle it so I went back to straightening.


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 8, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> We call them afro puffs. :wubu: As a kid I wanted to wear my hair in afro puffs like all the other girsooo badly but my mom insisted on straightening. Not so much because of any cultural expectations but because the straightened hair was easier to deal with and mom didnt have the patience. I soon discovered that I didn't either and stuck with straightening. I know very little about my own natural hair as a result. I let my braids out and went natural for two weeks and couldn't handle it so I went back to straightening.



Lilly you could totally pull off natural hair -- it's so thick and luscious! Loves it!


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## kr7 (Oct 8, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> We call them afro puffs. :wubu: As a kid I wanted to wear my hair in afro puffs like all the other girsooo badly but my mom insisted on straightening. Not so much because of any cultural expectations but because the straightened hair was easier to deal with and mom didnt have the patience. I soon discovered that I didn't either and stuck with straightening. I know very little about my own natural hair as a result. I let my braids out and went natural for two weeks and couldn't handle it so I went back to straightening.



Lilly, you look stunning! Wow! You really rock that look. :smitten: 

Chris


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## Tina (Oct 8, 2007)

I agree, great hair, Lilly. And afro puffs sounds like a totally apt name. 

Having the hair that I have and no other experience, why is it hard to deal with? Does it tangle easily? A guy I dated back in the 70's, before I was married (in the 80's) had a natural, though a shorter one, and I loved the way it looked and felt. Delicious.


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 8, 2007)

Tina said:


> I agree, great hair, Lilly. And afro puffs sounds like a totally apt name.
> 
> Having the hair that I have and no other experience, why is it hard to deal with? Does it tangle easily? A guy I dated back in the 70's, before I was married (in the 80's) had a natural, though a shorter one, and I loved the way it looked and felt. Delicious.



I think it has alot to do with texture...and not having a knowledge of how to care for natural hair. Now of course, not all AA women have thick, coarse hair -- but I happen to have it. It's very, very thick...I have a ton of hair, and when I was a little girl, my Mother's back would often ache after she was done shampooing and conditioning it. And yes, it can tangle easily (which is a good thing, if you are trying to loc your hair)...the thing that amazes me is when people want to feel my hair and are always surprised at how soft it is -- I guess they think it will feel like Brillo. :doh:


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## Tina (Oct 8, 2007)

Aren't pre-conceived notions great? I love your hair, Ash, and think it suits you. Cubby's hair (yes, Cubby -- I used to get teased for his name!) was nice and soft. I confess that I kind of wished he had a big 'fro because I wanted to plunge my hands and face into one and didn't think strangers would want to oblige me...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

There really is no structural difference between black hair and Caucasian hair. The hair is identical except black hair has smaller and higher density of curl patterns: 

^^^^^^^^^ 

At the point where hair curls, even in Caucasian hair, it is the weakest point in the hair strand and if breakage is going to occur it will most likely occur exactly where the curl is in the hair. Because black hair has so many of these curls it makes the hair much more fragile and the potential for damage is much higher. That being said, the hair has to be handled gently with the added complication that this tight curl pattern causes the hairs to get caught one into each other and hold fast so that it is difficult to separate them. The tangles get pretty intense and it takes patience and a gentle touch to get them untangled which is time consuming and also a little bit painful if you have a sensitive scalp. 

Anyway, this is something that has to be done on a daily basis if you want to wear you hair as I did in the picture. If you don't, it can get pretty badly matted down and make comb outs even worse so you have to keep up with it. OR you can comb it out and put it into locs but I don't really like that look on me. I wanted to wear my hair out but it meant getting up early every morning, loading my hair with conditioning shampoo, gently removing the tangles section by section with a wide toothed comb and then using a leave in oil based conditioner after the shampoo has been rinsed. They say you should use conditioner for the comb out but conditioner didn't seem do the trick on my hair, only wetting and shampoo. I had to get up almost an hour earlier every morning and my arms were exhausted and my neck stressed out from this daily ritual.





Tina said:


> I agree, great hair, Lilly. And afro puffs sounds like a totally apt name.
> 
> Having the hair that I have and no other experience, why is it hard to deal with? Does it tangle easily? A guy I dated back in the 70's, before I was married (in the 80's) had a natural, though a shorter one, and I loved the way it looked and felt. Delicious.


----------



## ashmamma84 (Oct 8, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> There really is no structural difference between black hair and Caucasian hair. The hair is identical except black hair has smaller and higher density of curl patterns:
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^
> 
> ...



Wow...that sure is alot of work. I normally get up (not any earlier than normal), apply a moisturizing hair dress, which is usually something by Carol's Daughter or Miss Jessie's, fluff with my hands and go. I do have my hair professionally cared for by a woman trained to work with natural hair and locs, so that might make the difference.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Wow...that sure is alot of work. I normally get up (not any earlier than normal), apply a moisturizing hair dress, which is usually something by Carol's Daughter or Miss Jessie's, fluff with my hands and go. I do have my hair professionally cared for by a woman trained to work with natural hair and locs, so that might make the difference.



Yeah, I'm one of 'those' kind of people who can't do that.  My niece is a professional stylist who owns her own salon and even she couldn't offer anything except to warn me of the dangers of daily shampooing. But seriously, soapy suds were the only thing that could get me through my hair and since then I've learned that I am among a rare breed of people with unique hair requirments. After all the recommended products and techniques didn't work I had to surrender.  To give you an idea, my mother has natural hair and always did but even she couldn't work with mine.


----------



## Tina (Oct 8, 2007)

Good Lord, Lilly, what a pain in the ass. After reading that I can't blame you for straightening. I know a lot of women have short naturals and wear wigs, or get weaves. Seems like a weave would weaken the hair even more. I'm one of those with a sensitive scalp and I could never go through that. I love the look of your natural, but can understand why you can't maintain it. I wouldn't be able to, either.


----------



## GoddessNoir (Oct 8, 2007)

Lily, the best solution for you would be a daily spritzing with a mixture of water and VERY diluted conditioner. When you go to bed at night, either seperate your hair into puffs or big plaits or two strand twists. That will work. Also, use a wooden pick on your hair and if your hair doesn't like that, useyour fingers. (I'm on a mission to get as many people as possible to at least TRY wearing their hair natural).

I don't have very coarse hair (though I've always wanted it). My hair is very curly. I've been trying to loc it for the past few months but, it just won't happen. My beloved and I starting locing our hair around the same time and he already has teenage locs. I, on the other hand, have about three baby locs, the rest of my hair is still just twisted and its a daily battle to keep them from unraveling.  

my hair: not great pics cause I took them myself











normal






after re-dyeing


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## Tina (Oct 8, 2007)

Oh, I love the way your hair looks from the top especially, Goddess. Beautiful.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 9, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Wow...that sure is alot of work. I normally get up (not any earlier than normal), apply a moisturizing hair dress, which is usually something by Carol's Daughter or Miss Jessie's, fluff with my hands and go. I do have my hair professionally cared for by a woman trained to work with natural hair and locs, so that might make the difference.



I might have mentioned this before but I have been seriously thinking about going back to natural hair. I absolutely loved the look and didn't mind the work so much. What I hated was the lack of knowledge of what to put in it and the inferior choices in products for my hair. I'm picky in that I don't like smelly stuff on me so spraying on water and conditioner was not an option for me -besides that, it didn't work anyway. What my hair needed was HUGE amounts of continuous moisture and lots of it. Conditioners were useless. Most products that say they moisturize dried up in my hair in less than an hour. I needed somthing that would keep my hair moist. My hair was never soft, not on one day. If I could find some kind of humectant that didn't stink, drip all over and stain furniture I'd be all set.


----------



## ashmamma84 (Oct 9, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I might have mentioned this before but I have been seriously thinking about going back to natural hair. I absolutely loved the look and didn't mind the work so much. What I hated was the lack of knowledge of what to put in it and the inferior choices in products for my hair. I'm picky in that I don't like smelly stuff on me so spraying on water and conditioner was not an option for me -besides that, it didn't work anyway. What my hair needed was HUGE amounts of continuous moisture and lots of it. Conditioners were useless. Most products that say they moisturize dried up in my hair in less than an hour. I needed somthing that would keep my hair moist. My hair was never soft, not on one day. If I could find some kind of humectant that didn't stink, drip all over and stain furniture I'd be all set.



I highly suggest Miss Jessie's Buttercreme -- trust me, your hair will not feel dry or brittle. Also, sleeping in a satin bonnet at night helps...and if you don't like things on your head (like Babe) then use a satin pillow case. Miss Jessie's also has a curly pudding that you can use to coax your curls, kinks, and waves into propper order...you can use it and set your hair on rods, do a twist set or just a comb through, depending on how you like to wear your hair.

Also, in the spring/summer, I switch up my routine because the weather dictates that I use something a little lighter, so I use Carol's Daughter Mimosa Hair Honey, Tui Hair Oil, or Some of Marguerite's Magic. 

Make sure you are deep conditioning your hair too -- I've actually used Schwarzkopf (what a mouthful!) for shampoos and conditioners with great results! The deep conditioner is awesome -- and I'll be honest, at first I was skeptical because it's a European product, aimed for European hair -- but it really is the 'ish! I believe you can find it at Ulta...let me check on that.

www.carolsdaughter.com/

www.missjessies.com/


----------



## ashmamma84 (Oct 9, 2007)

Okay, Schwarzkopf isn't available at Ulta...but you can find it at drugstore.com I really like the Bonacure shampoos/conditioners and the repair rescue treatment...makes my hair feel so soft. 

I use the Moisture shampoo, the moisture mask, and the repair rescue...I'm looking for another site that has more products; give me a minute.


http://www.drugstore.com/


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## Renaissance Woman (Oct 10, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


>


Sheesh woman! Will you take at least ONE bad picture so I can feel like you're a real person and not some model uber-babe who looks gorgeous ALL THE TIME?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## virgolicious (Oct 11, 2007)

GoddessNoir and LillyBBBW, you both look gorgeous with your natural hair styles. Ms. Lilly, I know what you mean about the care involved with maintaining a natural "do." I just started my journey a little over a month ago and I have had some trying days.  I will definitely try some of the suggestions that have been posted. Btw, Tina thanks for the post with all of the beautiful natural African-American hair styles...reminds me how beautiful natural hair can be.

You ladies ROCK! :bow:


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## Tooz (Oct 12, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Lilly you could totally pull off natural hair -- it's so thick and luscious! Loves it!



She can pull off any thing-- :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 12, 2007)

:blush: Thanks ladies. You all give me such a boost in here.

I woke up with a T-shirt concept. A silhouette of a woman with an afro and underneath it says, "Go With The 'Fro." I totally want one. I've searched online and it doesn't look like anyone else has thought of it. Anyone want to take a stab at it with me?


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 12, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> :blush: Thanks ladies. You all give me such a boost in here.
> 
> I woke up with a T-shirt concept. A silhouette of a woman with an afro and underneath it says, "Go With The 'Fro." I totally want one. I've searched online and it doesn't look like anyone else has thought of it. Anyone want to take a stab at it with me?



Okay, so there is this store in Harlem that sells Afrocentric tees...cute stuff too. The only gripe is that the plus sizes stop at 2x, which really fits like a 1x; I'm thinking of ordering one just to see if it will fit. 

Anyway -- www.xukuma.com/ I wish they would update the site as well! 

And I think your idea is great, Lilly!


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 12, 2007)

Wow! I like this one. Unfortunatley everything in this style is sold out.

Our local Afrocentric store is called A Nubian Notion. They've been around for years but they don't sell T's. (Hmmmmmm......$$$$$)


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 12, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Wow! I like this one. Unfortunatley everything in this style is sold out.
> 
> Our local Afrocentric store is called A Nubian Notion. They've been around for years but they don't sell T's. (Hmmmmmm......$$$$$)



Yeah, most of the things are sold out...I called a while back and asked what the deal was, and I guess they are trying to update the site. But I'm thinking that I'll just order over the phone in the near future and hope that it fits...and that I like it.


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## kr7 (Oct 12, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> :blush: Thanks ladies. You all give me such a boost in here.
> 
> I woke up with a T-shirt concept. A silhouette of a woman with an afro and underneath it says, "Go With The 'Fro." I totally want one. I've searched online and it doesn't look like anyone else has thought of it. Anyone want to take a stab at it with me?




First of all, can I just say that you are UNBELIEVABLY SEXAY!!!! Dear God, Lilly! You look amazing. :smitten: 

And, yes, that is a great idea. I'd love a t-shirt like that. I am a firm believer in being one's natural self, and I hate the fact that women today are under so much pressure to alter their appearance, be it by straightening their hair, or "smoothing" out wrinkles through plastic surgery.

Chris


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## dorez1650 (Oct 12, 2007)

I agree with the person who said the editor was probably just ignorant, not racist. I'm sure a lot of people who are outside of our culture, have no clue that our hair doesn't 'naturally' look like Beyonce's and others who wear weaves or who have chemically treated their hair. I wear my hair 'natural' and fortunately, I don't work in corporate America. But I used to work in that world and I wore a perm the whole time, because I was told it was less 'threatening' to my boss and co-workers. (sigh) 

My daughter and I were in a store recently. The cashier noticed my daughter's hair (it's long and straight). She said, "I love it when you people wear your hair like that." I don't think she realized how it sounded. She probably just didn't think before speaking. 

I think there are a lot of things about minorities that need to be cleared up for those who are ignorant of the facts. I hope this incident at the law firm will prompt an open discussion among the employees etc. on both sides.
Thanks for sharing this with us. Maybe it'll spark a discussion here as well.




ashmamma84 said:


> August 27, 2007
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tina (Oct 12, 2007)

Lilly, I'll make one for you if you like, though you'd have to look at my cafe press store at the womens' t-shirts to see if you like the styles and if the sizes would work for you. It's up to you, but I think it would be a great concept and message.



virgolicious said:


> GoddessNoir and LillyBBBW, you both look gorgeous with your natural hair styles. Ms. Lilly, I know what you mean about the care involved with maintaining a natural "do." I just started my journey a little over a month ago and I have had some trying days.  I will definitely try some of the suggestions that have been posted. Btw, Tina thanks for the post with all of the beautiful natural African-American hair styles...reminds me how beautiful natural hair can be.
> 
> You ladies ROCK! :bow:



You're welcome, virgolicious. I really, really tried to find my favorite photo of Terry McMillan to share here. It was on the dust cover of one of her books I was reading, years ago -- can't remember if it was "Disappearing Acts" or "Waiting to Exhale." Anyway, I was just dumbstruck by her beauty. She had a very short natural do, but her pose and her long, graceful neck, I swear she looked like a Nubian queen. Looked for almost an hour online and couldn't find it.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 13, 2007)

Tina said:


> Lilly, I'll make one for you if you like, though you'd have to look at my cafe press store at the womens' t-shirts to see if you like the styles and if the sizes would work for you. It's up to you, but I think it would be a great concept and message.



I would SO take you up on that Tina but be warned. I plan on wearing the hell out of that T-shirt and when I do I guarantee you people are going to demand to know where I got it.


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## Tina (Oct 13, 2007)

You can't scare me!!  

I will let you know when your shirt is done. If you have any suggestions on color that you personally would like, or anything else, PM me.


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## MickRidem (Oct 13, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> August 27, 2007
> First slide up: an African-American woman sporting an Afro. A real no-no, announced the Glamour editor to the 40 or so lawyers in the room. As for dreadlocks: How truly dreadful! The style maven said it was "shocking" that some people still think it "appropriate" to wear those hairstyles at the office. "No offense," she sniffed, but those "political" hairstyles really have to go.



Without reading all the pages of responses, I'll just say this: I would have been LIVID.  

First of all, I love Afros. Second of all, it's not like you're sporting a multi-coloured mohawk at work. Third of all, it is none of their damn business how you wear your hair as long as you are good at your job.

That's like... telling all blonds to dye their hair black so they might not look so stupid. (Yes, this has been suggested to me in the past.)

Some people are so clueless.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 13, 2007)

Tina said:


> You can't scare me!!
> 
> I will let you know when your shirt is done. If you have any suggestions on color that you personally would like, or anything else, PM me.



I like anything that has that vintage 70's look in like, mustard, olive, black even. I'll take anything though.


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2007)

Hey Lilly.  I've got this ready to upload to CafePress tomorrow if you like it.  I need to do just a little tweaking on it before hand; it's been a long and crazy day.


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## virgolicious (Oct 14, 2007)

Tina & Lilly,

The shirt design is awesome. Will it be available for others to buy as well?

:bow:


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2007)

Thanks, virgolicious. I think Lilly's saying certainly _is_ awesome! I decided to make the woman in it a woman of size. Seemed appropriate. Yes, I'll be uploading it to my cafe press store -- the one in my sig -- tomorrow. I'll probably put it on a variety of items. 

Lilly, I'll be PM'ing you tomorrow.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 14, 2007)

Tina said:


> Hey Lilly.  I've got this ready to upload to CafePress tomorrow if you like it.  I need to do just a little tweaking on it before hand; it's been a long and crazy day.




Wow! That design is FANTASTIC. I love it Tina, and I love that she is of size.


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## Tooz (Oct 14, 2007)

You know, I would wear those t shirt designs, I like them, but I would be scared it would be taken as disrespectful. Is there a way I could wear things like that, or do you think it would be best for me not to, not being a black woman myself?


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## GoddessNoir (Oct 14, 2007)

Tina said:


> Oh, I love the way your hair looks from the top especially, Goddess. Beautiful.





Thanks Ms. Tina and thanks ladies for the compliments.

Lily, I totally second Ash's suggestions, that girl definitely knows her stuff. 

When all else fails, olive oil, mayo and egg yellows make a FANTASTIC conditioner.


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## stefanie (Oct 14, 2007)

*LillyBBW* and *GoddessNoir*, you are both lovely; what great photos.

*Dorez1650*, what you said here: "But I used to work in that world and I wore a perm the whole time, because I was told it was less 'threatening' to my boss and co-workers. (sigh)" It's just unbelievable. As if hair is "threatening" - that's just awful.

*Tina* - my jaw is on the floor in amazement, at your graphics skills. The T-shirt is really attractive.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 14, 2007)

GoddessNoir said:


> Thanks Ms. Tina and thanks ladies for the compliments.
> 
> Lily, I totally second Ash's suggestions, that girl definitely knows her stuff.
> 
> When all else fails, olive oil, mayo and egg yellows make a FANTASTIC conditioner.



I just ordered a small sample of the stuff from Miss Jessies so we'll see when it gets here. In the meantime I experimented with spritzing my hair with water and then using botanic oil on it which kept it soft for about two hours. My hair drinks up EVERYTHING. Miss Jessies stuff is super expensive so a little better go a long way if it's going to work for me. We'll see.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 14, 2007)

Tooz said:


> You know, I would wear those t shirt designs, I like them, but I would be scared it would be taken as disrespectful. Is there a way I could wear things like that, or do you think it would be best for me not to, not being a black woman myself?



I don't think it will be taken that way at all Tooz. I'm actually a little nervous about wearing it myself simply because I have a relaxer in my hair. Here I'm advocationg for a natural look and my hair is relaxed to the hilt. Purists might get a little salty and say something but I figure the worst that will happen is it will give me an opportunity to open dialogue about my own hair issues and possibly get a tip on something good. Not only that but the shirt is so hot that no one is going to give a dang about my hair, they're going to be so busy trying to take it off me to notice.  The shirt is more an advocacy for going natural than it is about trying to get an afro. 

If anyone makes a fuss (I doubt many will, but all it takes is one in the crowd) tell them you purchased it to protest corporate slavery pushed by the media in solidarity with your AA sisters - plus the fact that you like the shirt. That would be fun!


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2007)

Heh! Hilarious, Lilly. 

Well, here is the new design in the store. It means a lot to me that you like the design so much.


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## GoddessNoir (Oct 14, 2007)

Ooooooo, Ms. Tina, me likey. Gonna buy one on Friday.


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## GoddessNoir (Oct 14, 2007)

Are we taking shirt requests? I would LOVE one that says :Afro Power! 

Or: "Can't stop the locs" with a picture of a loced woman.

Am I asking for too much?


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## Tooz (Oct 14, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I don't think it will be taken that way at all Tooz. I'm actually a little nervous about wearing it myself simply because I have a relaxer in my hair. Here I'm advocationg for a natural look and my hair is relaxed to the hilt.



See, I think it boils down to the fact that women should be free to do as they please to their hair. Natural? Great! Relaxed/dyed/permed/etc.? Also great. A womans body should belong to none other than herself (whooooa, grammar). I kind of feel strongly about this issue now that I have learned some about it. I think I will do what you said in the last bit of your response.


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## kr7 (Oct 14, 2007)

Tina said:


> Heh! Hilarious, Lilly.
> 
> Well, here is the new design in the store. It means a lot to me that you like the design so much.



Tina! This is absolutely amazing! You are truly gifted. Speaking as an artist, I really find your design impeccable.  

Oh, and yes, I shall be purchasing one, needless to say. 

Chris


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## Tooz (Oct 14, 2007)

Tina said:


> Heh! Hilarious, Lilly.
> 
> Well, here is the new design in the store. It means a lot to me that you like the design so much.



Will be ordering one asap


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## Blue_Rainbow3 (Oct 14, 2007)

GoddessNoir said:


> Or: "Can't stop the locs" with a picture of a loced woman.
> 
> Am I asking for too much?



I'm joining in this discussion late...but I love the t-shirt designs. I would love, love one that was about locs.


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2007)

Thank you all for your kind and positive words. 

In the interest of not totally derailing this thread, I have made a new thread so the issue can be discussed, and questions can be asked, here. And for those of you having difficulty finding the size chart at Cafe Press, it's a small text link right above the drop-down menu with the size choices on it.


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## Sandie S-R (Oct 14, 2007)

Tina said:


> Heh! Hilarious, Lilly.
> 
> Well, here is the new design in the store. It means a lot to me that you like the design so much.



As always, Tina...fabulous job!!! It is so cool that you could make Lily's shirt for her! Yeah!!!


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## Tina (Oct 14, 2007)

Thank you, Sandie.


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 15, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I just ordered a small sample of the stuff from Miss Jessies so we'll see when it gets here. In the meantime I experimented with spritzing my hair with water and then using botanic oil on it which kept it soft for about two hours. My hair drinks up EVERYTHING. Miss Jessies stuff is super expensive so a little better go a long way if it's going to work for me. We'll see.



No fear, Lilly -- a little def. goes a long, long way. I bought a jar of the buttercreme several months ago (like maybe 8 or 9) and I'm just starting to get low.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 15, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> No fear, Lilly -- a little def. goes a long, long way. I bought a jar of the buttercreme several months ago (like maybe 8 or 9) and I'm just starting to get low.



They just arrived today! The jars are small: one baby buttercreme and one unscented curly pudding. The baby buttercreme smells divine despite my hatred for fragrance. I'm going to use them tomorrow.


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 15, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> They just arrived today! The jars are small: one baby buttercreme and one unscented curly pudding. The baby buttercreme smells divine despite my hatred for fragrance. I'm going to use them tomorrow.



I hope everything works out for you...make sure to follow the directions in its entirety...I used the product by myself (the first time) and I didn't really look at the directions; and while my hair still came out okay...it wasn't the look I was going for.

Have fun experimenting! 

Oh and just a question -- do you already have natural hair or do you still have a relaxer? The reason I ask is because I don't know if the curly pudding will work on super straight hair or not...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 15, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> I hope everything works out for you...make sure to follow the directions in its entirety...I used the product by myself (the first time) and I didn't really look at the directions; and while my hair still came out okay...it wasn't the look I was going for.
> 
> Have fun experimenting!
> 
> Oh and just a question -- do you already have natural hair or do you still have a relaxer? The reason I ask is because I don't know if the curly pudding will work on super straight hair or not...



My hair hasn't been relaxed in two months so there's about an inch give or take of new growth at the roots. I was going to touch it up this weekend but I got distracted watching the Patriots game. I'm going to try to wear it curly tomorrow.







This weekend I washed it with conditioner and then braided it into 7 or 8 braids. Then I combed them out to see if it would fro. Erm,,,, no. It IS capable of curl though...... sometimes.




​


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## Jes (Oct 15, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> No fear, Lilly -- a little def. goes a long, long way. I bought a jar of the buttercreme several months ago (like maybe 8 or 9) and I'm just starting to get low.



Butch had buttercream on her Thai cake at dessert on Friday and I had some and it was really good and this comment is nonsensical in this thread but I just had to say it was really good. I had gelato.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 20, 2007)

OK. I tried Miss Jessies Baby Buttercream, which I thought smelled yummy at first. After a while though, the smell got on my nerves. I think at this point I may have to acknowledge that the texture of my hair is just very rough when it's dry and there's not much I can do about it that won't at the same time be too harsh for my skin. After a while my hair dried to its natural rough texture with too much of Miss Jessie in it. I followed the direction on the tub and it was dry but sticky by the middle of the day, too much product. Nevertheless, it wasn't what I'd hoped. I'm really begining to think that my hair is just strong hair and not meant to be soft like that in its natural state.

I've got one more trick up my sleeve. Someone has recommended Curling Wax from Paul Mitchell. I'll try that and if that doesn't work I'm officially giving up. Not on natural hair though, just on having natural hair that's managable and soft to the touch.

Anybody who wants to read more about my hair torture this week can look here.


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## kr7 (Oct 20, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> OK. I tried Miss Jessies Baby Buttercream, which I thought smelled yummy at first. After a while though, the smell got on my nerves. I think at this point I may have to acknowledge that the texture of my hair is just very rough when it's dry and there's not much I can do about it that won't at the same time be too harsh for my skin. After a while my hair dried to its natural rough texture with too much of Miss Jessie in it. I followed the direction on the tub and it was dry but sticky by the middle of the day, too much product. Nevertheless, it wasn't what I'd hoped. I'm really begining to think that my hair is just strong hair and not meant to be soft like that in its natural state.
> 
> I've got one more trick up my sleeve. Someone has recommended Curling Wax from Paul Mitchell. I'll try that and if that doesn't work I'm officially giving up. Not on natural hair though, just on having natural hair that's managable and soft to the touch.
> 
> Anybody who wants to read more about my hair torture this week can look here.



Hey Lilly,

I'm in no way an expert, but I just want to throw some ideas at you. Firstly, do you think that your problem with consistent results could have something to do with the fact that your hair has been relaxed in the past, and only few inches near the scalp are virgin? It sounds to me as though, that could have a huge impact on what different parts of your hair do, when styled (or not).

Secondly, have you ever considered that you might be overcleaning your hair. I realize that in the US people get very freaked out by the idea of not washing their hair every day, but.....I am from Europe, where women generally don't wash their hair as often (it can range from every few days to once a week), and I can attest that it does not make you dirty, or disgusting at all. It does, however, keep your hair and scalp naturally moisturized. So, unless you work somewhere very dirty like a hot kitchen or a cement factory, maybe you'd be willing to give it a try.

Lastly, when you use conditioner, do you actually leave it in your hair for 10 minutes BEFORE rinsing? When rinsing, do you make sure NOT to rinse it squeeky-clean?

Again, I'm not an expert, but the above seem to be tried and true for many women I know. 

Chris


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## virgolicious (Oct 20, 2007)

Hi Lilly,
I'm no expert either. I remember several years back when I first tried double-stranded twists and my hair was relaxed. The style wouldn't hold because my hair was relaxed, despite the fact I used setting lotion and I let it air dry. Even now that my hair is 100% natural (the last time I went to have my braids removed the African woman removing my braids said "your hair is very natural." ), my hair reacts differently to different styles. The picture I posted about a month ago was for single-strand twists and then I tried double-stranded twists again, with better luck but I had to twist my hair nightly for the the curls/waves to hold. My stylist uses setting lotion and then puts me under a hood dryer until my hair is completely dry. I notice the style will not hold if you let it air-dry (which I did when trying to maintain the style a few weeks back) vs. using a heated hair dryer. So in case my suggestion got lost in the long-winded story; use setting lotion and sit under a hood dryer. Btw, I think your experiment with the hair butter looks fabulous. 
Good luck on your natural journey. :bow:


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## Tina (Oct 20, 2007)

I generally wash my hair every other day, sometimes every two days. It's fine and dry and color-treated, so more than that and it would be too trying.

Lilly, it's possible that you really do just have coarse hair. My hair is very soft to the touch, but it's also very fine and totally unmanageable. A friend of mine has much coarser hair, but it also has much more body and looks great, though it's not soft to the touch. I guess maybe there's just a lot of variation no matter one's race?

I hope this isn't offensive at all, and I'm sure you know way more about it than I, but I found this site, and it seems like it has some good information. But maybe you know all of that anyway. If so, please ignore.


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## ripley (Oct 20, 2007)

I think that this is what fashion _does_...it tells us to be different than how we would be in our natural states. I think that the AA hair comments were racially charged, and ridiculous. But the "be something different than you are" is a pressure that everyone is under...black, white, red, yellow, brown, male, female....

I just don't know where it starts. Is it okay to not shave your legs in a corporate environment? Not have manicured nails? Not wear makeup? I doubt I'd get anywhere in a corporate environment with my sometimes frizzy hair, my short unpolished nails, and my big fat body. 

I agree with everyone, that it was wrong, what she said, and that it seems like they want AA women to be less "ethnic." But the simple fact that they had women gathered together for a "corporate fashion" presentation shows how women are supposed to conform to an arbitrary image. I guess what I'm getting at is that most of us would accept all sorts of strictures placed on us, and that the only reason this one causes a fuss is because it's racially based. 

No matter what anyone says, I think corporations prize homogenization. I think they'd make the same sort of misguided overtures to a Native American man with long hair or long braids. I'm not defending them, I'm just saying that it seems to be the nature of the beast. It isn't right, but it isn't completely a racial issue. It's an issue of how our society prizes the superficial.





In an aside...it seems to me that going "natural" is more work and takes more product than being straightened/relaxed? Then why the heck do they call it natural? LOL


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 21, 2007)

*Ripley:* If being natural were easy nobody would ever stray from it. People relax loc and braid their hair for more than just appearances, it's also to make dealing with it much easier and with less maintenence.

*virgolicious & Kr7:* To be honest I rarely ever wash my hair. My daily ritual is to wet it and apply more botanic oil. Sometimes I give it a clarifying wash to start my hair with a clean slate when I remember or have time to do it but my hair is rarely washed. I'm too embarassed to tell you how long I go without washing. Honestly I'm not too sure myself. I have about an inch of new growth at the roots of my hair. While its true most of my hair is relaxed that makes my hair easier to manage but it's still the same hair and subject to the same dryness if not more. I can tell if a product is not going to work on my natural hair, especially if it doesn't even work on the relaxed hair. Miss Jessies failed the test as using it was an all around unpleasant experience for me. It does everything I don't want it to do, I'm glad I only bought the small size.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, in the previous picture my hair feels and moves like straw even with the recommended amount of Miss Jessies in it. The Buttercream was all over my face and neck by day's end.

*Tina: * You are right about my hair just being a rough coarse texture. My childhood is littered with memories of complaints from my mother and my grandmother, who called my hair "brickley" as a child. My sisters hair, also a 4b, didnt give my family nearly the grief mine did due to its texture that was unresponsive to the traditional products that everyobody was using. It's just an overly thick hard head of hair, period. Somewhere I have to believe that in the thousands of years black women have existed on this planet there has to be some element out there that will work in harmony with my hair. In my mind I feel its my responsibility to find out. 

I think I've found something though. Like I said, my hair needs something that helps keep moisture in it. Oils, pomades and creams simply do.not.work and in my 41 years you can trust that I've tried them all from Afro Sheen to Paul Mitchell. About a week or so ago on a whim I bought this stuff called Kuza beeswax. I'm under no illusions that I can dred or twist my hair in it's relaxed state which is why I'd never thought to buy it before but I thought one day I would test the beeswax on my new growth to see how it responds. I put it in some small sections of my hair and left the rest untreated. The stuff softened my hair litterally on contact. I woke up this morning and my hair is still soft in the areas I tested. I like it because it softens, it's inexpensive, it doesn't migrate easily on to skin and clothes AND... (drum roll).... NO SMELL! I think I may have found the answer but I'm still in the testing stage right now.


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## Tina (Oct 21, 2007)

Lilly, that's fabulous.  After all this time it must be so satisfying to have found something that will make your life easier when it comes to your hair. Sounds like this is the most promising thing yet and I hope it really works out for you.


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## ripley (Oct 21, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> *Ripley:* If being natural were easy nobody would ever stray from it. People relax loc and braid their hair for more than just appearances, it's also to make dealing with it much easier and with less maintenence.





I know.  It just struck my funny bone that natural was MORE work, and not less. Seemed like it would be the other way around.


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## Frankie (Oct 21, 2007)

Lilly, I feel like I have a Caucasian version of some of your hair woes. No matter how much I try to condition or moisturize my hair, it ends up feeling dry. No product ever seems to get the job done. By the time I get to work, my hair feels crispy instead of soft. My hair is very fine and naturally curly and prone to extreme frizz. I blow it straight every day, which I know isn't helping anything. Supposedly I have a normal number of strands, but each is so fine, my hair tends to look thin and limp, curly or straight.

Is this beeswax product works for you, do you think it might work for me?


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## GoddessNoir (Oct 21, 2007)

Being natural isn't necessarily more work. When I relaxed my hair, maintainence consisted of washing, deep conditioning, blow drying, flat ironing, wrapping it, then being able to walk out the door. Now that my hair is natural, I wash, condition if I feel like it and let it air dry. Not much work at all. What would normally take me three hours plus to look decent, now takes less than an hour.


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## GoddessNoir (Oct 21, 2007)

Lilly, your hair looks great. You no likey?


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## Tina (Oct 21, 2007)

Goddess, I just want to tell you that I took a look at your blog. You're very creative, both in the kitchen and at the sewing machine. Nice designs.


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## elle camino (Oct 22, 2007)

Frankie said:


> Lilly, I feel like I have a Caucasian version of some of your hair woes. No matter how much I try to condition or moisturize my hair, it ends up feeling dry. No product ever seems to get the job done.
> 
> [snippity snip]
> 
> Is this beeswax product works for you, do you think it might work for me?




granted i've never seen your hair, but i think there might be a few steps between what you might have already tried and the beeswax thing, which is pretty serious. i mean it's honest-to-god wax, in your hair. it's a pretty big gun in the war against frizz. 
how often do you wash your hair? what brand of shampoo/conditioner do you use? what leave-in conditioning stuff do you use? do you have an exceptionally dry scalp too, or is your scalp kinda oily and it's just your hair that's dry? i know next to nothing about african american hair, but i have a ton of whitegirl friends with SUUUUPER kinky/frizzy/coarse hair, and i know what works for them.


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## Jes (Oct 22, 2007)

elle camino said:


> granted i've never seen your hair, but i think there might be a few steps between what you might have already tried and the beeswax thing, which is pretty serious. i mean it's honest-to-god wax, in your hair. it's a pretty big gun in the war against frizz.
> how often do you wash your hair? what brand of shampoo/conditioner do you use? what leave-in conditioning stuff do you use? do you have an exceptionally dry scalp too, or is your scalp kinda oily and it's just your hair that's dry? i know next to nothing about african american hair, but i have a ton of whitegirl friends with SUUUUPER kinky/frizzy/coarse hair, and i know what works for them.



i'm going to highly recommend the brazilian keratin treatment for this hair. i've had it done 2x, and it softens the hair, makes it far less curly, and aids the drying/styling process. It can be done to damaged hair. Don't know if it's available where you are, and it's pricey and not permanent, but I can't recommend it highly enough. It's worth trying.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 22, 2007)

Frankie said:


> Lilly, I feel like I have a Caucasian version of some of your hair woes. No matter how much I try to condition or moisturize my hair, it ends up feeling dry. No product ever seems to get the job done. By the time I get to work, my hair feels crispy instead of soft. My hair is very fine and naturally curly and prone to extreme frizz. I blow it straight every day, which I know isn't helping anything. Supposedly I have a normal number of strands, but each is so fine, my hair tends to look thin and limp, curly or straight.
> 
> Is this beeswax product works for you, do you think it might work for me?



The beeswax might be a bit too hard core. I've got it on today and I've clearly used too much. It may be perfect for my natural hair but with my hair relaxed it is somewhat overpowering. You might want to skip this particular product.

I will say that somebody has tipped me off to Paul Mitchell Wax Works. I was trying to avoid spending the money on Paul Mitchell so I tried Kuza which is too heavy. I can't tell you how PMWW will work for you but I can tell you the Kuza is too thick.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 22, 2007)

GoddessNoir said:


> Lilly, your hair looks great. You no likey?



Oh it's not the look that's the problem it's the product.


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## Frankie (Oct 23, 2007)

Yeah, I guess I didn't think the wax thing through at all.

I wash and condition my hair every day. I'd prefer not to, but my scalp is oily and I toss and turn when I sleep. When I wake up, I have three inches of super oily hair and a really bad case of all over bed head. I don't feel clean if I don't wash my hair every day, but I'd love to be one of those people who can get away with that.

I have long hair that's overdue for a haircut. I use Garnier Fructis permanent hair color every two months or so - nothing very different from my natural color, just something to put a little warmth and vibrancy in my otherwise flat, mousy, medium brown hair. I use Garnier Fructis, Neutrogena, Pantene, Dove, and Herbal Essences shampoos and conditioners. I can't choose between the color-treated, damaged, dry, volumizing, thickening, anti-frizz formulations - I need one that does all of these!

I don't use any leave in products, but only because the ones I've tried seem to end up weighing my hair down or making it feel sticky. Maybe I just haven't found the right product yet. I do use Frizz-Ease hair spray to keep my hair from misbehaving. Otherwise, one slight breeze and my hair's a mess. It has no swing, so it doesn't fall back into place.

If you have any advice, I'd be thrilled. I think I'd feel more polished if I had better behaving hair. Or maybe I just need to finally accept what I have.



elle camino said:


> granted i've never seen your hair, but i think there might be a few steps between what you might have already tried and the beeswax thing, which is pretty serious. i mean it's honest-to-god wax, in your hair. it's a pretty big gun in the war against frizz.
> how often do you wash your hair? what brand of shampoo/conditioner do you use? what leave-in conditioning stuff do you use? do you have an exceptionally dry scalp too, or is your scalp kinda oily and it's just your hair that's dry? i know next to nothing about african american hair, but i have a ton of whitegirl friends with SUUUUPER kinky/frizzy/coarse hair, and i know what works for them.


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## Frankie (Oct 23, 2007)

Is this like the Japanese hair straightening process? I know someone who's had it done, and her hair looks fantastic. Unfortunately, a hair stylist I know said it would make my thin hair too straight, and I'll end up with stringier looking locks. It works better on people with thicker hair. Otherwise, I'd give it a try.



Jes said:


> i'm going to highly recommend the brazilian keratin treatment for this hair. i've had it done 2x, and it softens the hair, makes it far less curly, and aids the drying/styling process. It can be done to damaged hair. Don't know if it's available where you are, and it's pricey and not permanent, but I can't recommend it highly enough. It's worth trying.


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## GoddessNoir (Oct 27, 2007)

Tina said:


> Goddess, I just want to tell you that I took a look at your blog. You're very creative, both in the kitchen and at the sewing machine. Nice designs.



Thanks much Ms. Tina. You're so sweet.


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## toni (Oct 27, 2007)

I agree that what the woman said was very insensitive but unfortunately it is true. In the corporate world people are judged by how they look. She was just preaching what is the norm. She didn't write the book. It is the same thing with visible tattoos, it is not "professional". I do not think it is right, we need to judge people on their merit and not their look. BUT, that is the way it is. 

I had a girlfriend from high school who was fresh out of college. She went on interview after interview but could not score a job. She constantly called me and asked why. She had dreadlocks, I told her it might be her hair (I did a short stint of hiring at a previous job, so I knew what a company looked at). She was pretty upset but in the end opted for micro-braids. Soon after that she landed a job. I felt really bad for her, someone should not have to go through that in this day and age. 
:doh:


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## LillyBBBW (May 7, 2014)

*bump*

Talk about an old assed thread. I just started locking my hair two and a half weeks ago. Spent a Sunday parting my hair in sections and adding two strand twists. I've washed it twice so far and I kid you not, my hair is starting to lock. If I shampooed under the shower and jostled my hair, all but only a few twists would stay. Just thought I'd put that out there if anyone from this thread is still around. I've finally done it. Hoping I can manage to keep my new job.


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## loopytheone (May 8, 2014)

I know I have a friend who is mixed race who says that hairdressers try and charge her and black people more to cut their hair. Is this normal practise? Because that is awful, sure, some people with dark skin have thicker hair but you shouldn't have to pay more for a haircut essentially because you are a different race...


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## Gingembre (May 9, 2014)

loopytheone said:


> I know I have a friend who is mixed race who says that hairdressers try and charge her and black people more to cut their hair. Is this normal practise? Because that is awful, sure, some people with dark skin have thicker hair but you shouldn't have to pay more for a haircut essentially because you are a different race...



I wouldn't be surprised. I've been charged more for having long thick hair before. I do need an extended appointment in order to get it all blowdried though, so I suppose it's fair. I was in there for over 2 hours last time, and 1 hour and 20 minutes of that was the poor chap blowdrying my hair all lovely.


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## LillyBBBW (May 9, 2014)

loopytheone said:


> I know I have a friend who is mixed race who says that hairdressers try and charge her and black people more to cut their hair. Is this normal practise? Because that is awful, sure, some people with dark skin have thicker hair but you shouldn't have to pay more for a haircut essentially because you are a different race...



Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't really know. I've only had my hair cut at a chain salon once and the charge was the same as everyone else. I admit that the woman was uncomfortable doing my hair nut I made her anyway. Most salons wouldn't even take me as a customer because they don't know how to do black hair. I usually get my hair done at salons that cater specifically to afro ethnic hair and they cost an arm and a leg generally speaking. Some of them don't even know how to do afro hair in its natural state, you have to comb the internet looking for a salon that says they specialize in locs or natural hair. There's a reason black women account for over 80% of all beauty supply sales in America. It's because nobody will do our friggen hair.


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