# Women's perceptions on "Catty Behavoir"



## Ruffie (Oct 20, 2009)

Ladies I wondered about your opinions on this. I was talking with a friend and we were discussing how on one hand women can be so incredibly supportive, loving and close with each other and yet on the other hand can be downright catty and jealous of other women. Its a human condition I will state as I have many guy friends and they can be bigger gossips than the women I hang with, but the real jealousy and tearing each other down seems to be more of a women's issue. Do you believe this is a real issue in your life? And secondly if it has been how did/do you deal with these people?

For me it has been an issue and I am always surprised when it crops up. I go on about my life doing the best I can each day in work, home, friendship and parenting areas. I am fairly oblivious to the crap factor around me. I don't think I am incredibly hot, well off, popular or whatever someone else would have anything to be jealous of so can not always reconcile why they would have an issue with me in the first place. But hey sometimes they do. For me its continuing to do what I am doing UNLESS their issues begin to cause problems for me in workplace, home life or with other friends. Then its confrontation time and I simply let em know that I know what they are up to and that their gossip or perceptions are not true and should they have further issues in the future take it up with ME please! Made a few people cry when I let em know what their actions and talk have caused in my life and the venom with which I will defend myself when this is a long term thing and I have had enough.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 20, 2009)

Yep it's been an issue for me in the work place and has caused a huge amount of emotional angst for me. I love my job and love most of my co-workers but I've been the victim of workplace cattiness since I started there nearly five years ago because I don't fit in as either the battle axe nurse or the cute and fluffy nurse; I'm "different", and people pick up on that and use it to my disadvantage. There is so much back stabbing and talking behind people's backs, it's really disheartening particularly from so called professionals. Nurses dog each other for their charting, for making different choices in caring for a patient, for calling in sick when they're obviously sick. Do they go to the boss with any of these "concerns"? No. They sit at the nurses' station and bitch about whoever's not there to defend themselves, but then are all sweet as pie to that person's face, even while undermining that person's reputation with providers.

It sucks.  And all the continuing education and sensitivity training in the world doesn't seem to help, because people don't see themselves doing it. I tell myself that other people's opinions about me don't matter but I have to work with these people and since we work as a team, their opinions matter. When I hear them doing it about others, I don't join in and will sometimes stand in and defend the person in question, particularly if false information is being disseminated, as it usually is. But no doubt that makes me even more suspect in these people's minds. 

I'm not sure why women seem to do this so much more than men, other than it's a way that we gain power in the work place. But does it really help us gain power? Not really, at least not where I work. And it certainly doesn't bring out the best in each other.

I'm interested in hearing what others think, and their experiences with this.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 20, 2009)

I don't know, Vick. I don't experience these problems at work, at all. Maybe that is because I don't markedly stand out in any way -- good or bad. I do my job, only that which is expected of me, since I now have other priorities. I'm competent, but not exceedingly so. I'm average in just about every way. That's not something that I'm ashamed of; just a statement of fact. My interest lies more in my little boy, my home, my family. I'm not very interested in office politics, and I think that's very obvious to my coworkers, since I'm seldom invited to share in the gossip fests. I don't think I'm a threat to anyone. Perhaps its just as simple as that, regarding why I don't consider my coworkers to be at all catty towards me. They've actually been genuinely decent and friendly and supportive when I've needed it -- men and women. I've had issues at times with some of my clerical staff, but that revolves mostly around performance issues (which are NEVER easy for anyone to hear, no matter how truthfully or how delicately the issues may be phrased) and I am keenly attuned to the perceived power differentials, whether I think they are reality-based or not. 

I choose my friends carefully, and so far, have been extraordinarily lucky. When there have been problems, I have to acknowledge that I played a big part in them too. 

I can't choose my family, obviously. And while I wish that some things were different, the reality for me is that I am willing to tolerate behaviors from them that I'd NEVER allow from anyone else because what I'd lose -- opportunities to bond with my nephews & nieces, for one -- make it an impossibility for me to take much of a stand with people whom I sometimes feel can't be reasoned out of unreasonable behavior.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 20, 2009)

I think women gain or disseminate power by sharing information. If you want to gain status you can do that by being "in the know" or by having access to knowledge that somebody else wants.

Women bond by sharing things. To make friends we share personal information and to gain or even pretend to status, we share information about others. 

A local newspaper recently ran an an article about how many parents feel compelled to volunteer at their kids' schools. It mentioned that in some towns (the wealthier suburbs, natch) that volunteering and serving on certain committees is a sign of social status and that many moms volunteer to do things because otherwise their kids are not invited to play dates and birthday parties. Many women who were interviewed talked about volunteer activities being "cliqueish" and how many of the "supervolunteer" types had Queen Bee status because they "knew everything that went on at the school" or "were on first name basis with the teachers and staff". 

So what makes you an insider or Queen Bee is who and what you know, not how tasty your baked goods were at a bake sale or providing a great product for a fundraising auction or giving the most time to tutor kids that need help...it was knowing the most.


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## Sugar (Oct 20, 2009)

I think It's a real issue for me but I try to make sure I own my part in the catty issue. I'm am very aware I'm not like most women. Everything from what I enjoy doing to how I talk to and address people despite looking pretty girly. I'm told often I'd make a great guy. 

It's been my experience girls find being around me uncomfortable and the reaction can range from not talking to me to saying very cruel things. I'm quite good at being mean back but in the past several years I've made it a personal mission to not act that way. I slip sometimes. I try to turn away and know that I am what I am and that's plenty for those I love and care for.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 20, 2009)

Someone just brought an interesting point up with me via PM, which is wondering if the gender mix in my office plays any part in how well (I perceive) that we get along. 

I did work in an all-female environment once -- at least, all female in the front office, all male in the warehouse. There were some problems, but without going into pointless detail, I felt that the root cause was that management was setting up the very unhealthy need for competition between us. I never saw it as cattiness just for the sake of being catty. More an attempt to tear others down as a means of trying to build oneself up. The classic 'career' moves. 

It's an interesting question, but I'm not sure how much the male/female dynamic influences behavior. I'd like to think that my office mates are professionals, and that means that they know how to behave as such (but I know that's a load of ... klunk). It's probably more realistic that I'm just not seeing the bad behaviors because I choose to live in a bubble. I'd be interested in seeing other input along these lines, as I think it's a good question.


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## cinnamitch (Oct 20, 2009)

You know Vickie i have never understood the whole backstabbing involved with nurses. I worked in a nursing home for years. Finally ending my career in a so called mini icu section of a nursing home. Try being the fat nurse trying to show you can do as well as the skinny nurse who hates you for some unexplained reason. I dealt with complaints on my work, accusations that i broke a chair, culminating in sabotaging a lab sample that i drew. If a couple of other nurses who were aware of of her previous actions had not found where she hid the sample, i would probably have been out of a job. It seems that nurses feel the need to compete with each other and why i have no idea. Gossip runs rampant, running to supervisors with non existant complaints and just basic stupidity. I think in this instance male nurses tend to fare better, they are usually fawned over a bit more so they tend to get more of a bye, at least that has been my experience. I have always said if you want to work with a lot of gossipy, backstabbing bitches, become a nurse. :happy: I think it is one of many reasons there is so much turnover and burnout in the nursing profession. You can make more money with less headache in other fields and not hold peoples lives in your hands. 




Miss Vickie said:


> Yep it's been an issue for me in the work place and has caused a huge amount of emotional angst for me. I love my job and love most of my co-workers but I've been the victim of workplace cattiness since I started there nearly five years ago because I don't fit in as either the battle axe nurse or the cute and fluffy nurse; I'm "different", and people pick up on that and use it to my disadvantage. There is so much back stabbing and talking behind people's backs, it's really disheartening particularly from so called professionals. Nurses dog each other for their charting, for making different choices in caring for a patient, for calling in sick when they're obviously sick. Do they go to the boss with any of these "concerns"? No. They sit at the nurses' station and bitch about whoever's not there to defend themselves, but then are all sweet as pie to that person's face, even while undermining that person's reputation with providers.
> 
> It sucks.  And all the continuing education and sensitivity training in the world doesn't seem to help, because people don't see themselves doing it. I tell myself that other people's opinions about me don't matter but I have to work with these people and since we work as a team, their opinions matter. When I hear them doing it about others, I don't join in and will sometimes stand in and defend the person in question, particularly if false information is being disseminated, as it usually is. But no doubt that makes me even more suspect in these people's minds.
> 
> ...


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## Dr. Feelgood (Oct 20, 2009)

Not being a woman, I may have no business posting here, BUT ... I'm gonna say something anyway: isn't the elephant in the room being ignored? For thousands of years women have been excluded from decision-making in many Western cultures. The only way they could get their welfare and interests attended to by the Powers That Be (i.e., men) was through indirect methods, such as hinting and innuendo. Aren't the types of behavior being discussed here really the arsenal of the powerless?


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 20, 2009)

Being catty in and of itself can be fun. I happen to be very good at it. It's a very strange marriage though. I hate beiong around catty people. How these two warring philosophies manage together is a bit difficult to explain. As a whole I am very open minded about people. I don't care what anyone does or what they're into and rarely find myself on the ready to judge someone. It's always interesting to learn about the world and how others experience amd approach it so I tend to be fairly easy going. My hackles go up theough when I'm among people who will cut someone down simply because of the way they look or the way they choose to live their life. People who do this are the one's I reserve most of my cattiness for. I tend to become judgemental and critical of them for the things that they do even though these things don't really bother me at all. I just find it rediculous to listen to people complain about how someone else's shit stinks. Cattyness for me is a way to let off steam about what makes me angry as if to say, "Sister you have no platform from which to stand in judgement of anyone else." I really hate people like that and feel a sense of seething rage to want to cut them down to size. I've done it and enjoyed a good laugh with people in a cat scratch session. But then I sober up quickly when I hear these same people being catty themselves towards some person who has done nothing. They simply made choices that they don't understand or approve of. After I've launched into a bitch session of my own, how then can I then turn around and censor someone for doing the same? I find myself becoming disgusted with them yet I'm a bit distracted by how hypocritical it is on my part to assert that my cattyness is ok but theirs is not. 

For me the cattyness is a form of self therapy, I'm assuming it is for them too. Weather it's fueled by anger, fear, jealousy - cattyness does serve a purpose for most people who engage in it. It seems as natural as dreaming and I am inclined to believe that cattyness is more about the person who uses it than it is about the person it is directed at. It has taught me to not put too much stock in to what people say about me. I know myself, I'm happy with the choices I've made and people must find their own path or their own way of coping. Unfortunatley this may lead to some nasty things beind said about me. I can't do anything about that and I doubt there is much we can do to stop people from doing it in general. People always will. You can't let it bother you. 

In the meantime I'm building up my courage to try to distance myself from nasty people who thrive on controversy. That kind of thing has outlived its entertainment value and I don't want to hear it anymore. I prefer not to know what people are saying. Good topic Ruffie, this has been weighing heavily on my mind of late and it's nice to be able to talk this out and hear what other people are thinking on this issue.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Oct 22, 2009)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Not being a woman, I may have no business posting here, BUT ... I'm gonna say something anyway: isn't the elephant in the room being ignored? For thousands of years women have been excluded from decision-making in many Western cultures. The only way they could get their welfare and interests attended to by the Powers That Be (i.e., men) was through indirect methods, such as hinting and innuendo. Aren't the types of behavior being discussed here really the arsenal of the powerless?



There is no elephant in the room..What is being discussed it the way women treat one another and it has nothing to do with the Powers That Be..We use innuendos on men to either make men see our point of view or to be more receptive to our agenda...No it is not about being powerless it is about having some sort of power but not using it in a constructive way..It is about women going behind each others back to gossip whether it is the truth or not...*Has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with men in any way shape or forum*..Women use this sort of behavior to fit in with a group of women or to make sure their group alienates which ever woman,woman #1 does not like..We all have been victims of this sort of behavior before and I would imagine some of us have used it before as well...I really do not understand what drives it but it is some kind of socializing we do..

I am sorry Dr. Feelgood but you really opened a can of worms with me..Why is it when women are discussing subject that just affect them,does some man comes in and try to turn it where women do this because of men..We do a lot of things in life that men do not understand but we do..Maybe it is because the way our brains work,maybe we have been taught behavior from a young age..Maybe it is the way society has taught us to act..I personally do not know..

I do know this much...Things women do in life does not always center around men or really have much to do with men,especially when interacting with other women..I do not know if it is some kind of unseen or un-discussed matronly hierarchy or what..I do know that there are different stages women go through in their lives..As they pass through each stage their ideal and thoughts change about everything..From the time they are a little girl until they get to the Golden years of their lives women are always changing and growing..Most of the time men are not involved,they just come along for the ride..

Sorry but this is just my point of view..


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## Tina (Oct 22, 2009)

I might be speaking out of turn, but I think what the Dr. is saying is that because of the power differential and how women never had any real power in society until more recently and could not grab power directly, they had to use subterfuge and other channels in order to grab whatever power they could and sometimes turned on each other to do so, hence the scenario we have here. In fact, I agree with him and believe that that is part of it. It shouldn't be as necessary these days, but yet it still persists in some quarters. It would be nice if womanhood was more of a sisterhood, but that is not the case and particularly in work or competitive environments. Historically, while men were taught to compete outright and were rewarded for winning power and tangible prizes, women were taught less direct means of winning and often winning for women meant winning a man; so there were fewer powerful female role models. The first ones, and beyond, really made it just by having to act like men. While there has been changes and advancement of women in areas of power, I'd love to see more change in this area.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 22, 2009)

Tina said:


> I might be speaking out of turn, but I think what the Dr. is saying is that because of the power differential and how women never had any real power in society until more recently and could not grab power directly, they had to use subterfuge and other channels in order to grab whatever power they could and sometimes turned on each other to do so, hence the scenario we have here. In fact, I agree with him and believe that that is part of it. It shouldn't be as necessary these days, but yet it still persists in some quarters. It would be nice if womanhood was more of a sisterhood, but that is not the case and particularly in work or competitive environments. Historically, while men were taught to compete outright and were rewarded for winning power and tangible prizes, women were taught less direct means of winning and often winning for women meant winning a man; so there were fewer powerful female role models. The first ones, and beyond, really made it just by having to act like men. While there has been changes and advancement of women in areas of power, I'd love to see more change in this area.



I have to admit, I completely stepped over Dr. Feelgood's post because I didn't see how any of it applied to the circumstances discussed in the OP. I don't know about anyone else but in my experience subtelty and inuendo is about as effective as a tampon in a tidal wave when it comes to communicating with men generally. I tend to be more frank and direct in my communications with men than with women speaking only for myself. In the case with women I do tend to adhere to a more sisterhood mentality and will be more subtle. If the interactions here on this board are any indication it seems many people here are similarly inclined. Criticism of men's foibles tend to be somewhat sharper than those directed at a female's even when sarcasm is used. 

On the other hand, I've had a crash course in feminine discourse of late. I hardly ever leave the safety of my cave and now I recall why. Four out of five times much of the gnashing of teeth that goes on among women is over a guy. A guy dates all but rather than call him on his bullshit women will snatch each other's hair out over the thing like the guy was stolen. Rule number one: men go on their own, they are never stolen. Rule number two: any woman who 'steals' a man away has done you a favor and if there is any loss to be handed out it naturally goes to the other woman as part of her prize. In short I don't think overall that men are the source of all our problems but when they are, they shouldn't be. 

That fifth incident of teeth gnashing often occurs due to jealousy, be it professional or personal. I've seen women hate on another woman for no good reason. It's not because the woman has wronged them in some way or visits evil upon the world. It's usually for inert reasons. She's attractive, young, enormously successful at something, outgoing, fashionable, talented, she married well, was born in to wealth or some such thing. In many cases the woman goes way out of her way to be nice and gain favor but most times it's to no avail. Hackles are immediately raised and the woman is hated just because. It is a competative thing and the very definition of the word "catty" in my view. And sorry fellas, this isn't about you either. It's a natural pecking order, a hunter's instinct if you will, and unfortunately it seems many women never outgrow it. It may be a saner state all around for women to just accept the hate as their due and view it as a compliment. Be emboldened to live your life fiercely and cultivate a glorious roar.


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## toni (Oct 22, 2009)

Great topic!

Anyone who knows me, knows I LOVE gossip. It is one of my favorite hobbies. I enjoy it so much, I will listen to gossip about people I don't even know. For me, it is the WOW factor. Kind of like watching America's funniest home videos. 

I love getting together and trading stories. It is so much fun. But give me the facts and that is where it stops. I don't take it to another level and judge people or tear them down. I am not better than anyone and I do not need to feel like I am. I believe most people are good and but make bad choices sometimes. No need to run a person through the mud.


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## Tooz (Oct 22, 2009)

I used to be a biiiig shit talker. I am less of one now, and I feel better about it. I still gossip some, but overall I try to keep it low, because (this may be a shocker to some) I do like to have SOME poise.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 22, 2009)

cinnamitch said:


> I have always said if you want to work with a lot of gossipy, backstabbing bitches, become a nurse. :happy: I think it is one of many reasons there is so much turnover and burnout in the nursing profession. You can make more money with less headache in other fields and not hold peoples lives in your hands.



YES! This is my experience as well, and yes male nurses are really fawned over and even promoted above women. I work with a couple of guys who are nice, don't get me wrong, and are competent. Not rock stars, but competent. One of them has managed to work the system, and has used his naturally charismatic personality to climb the rungs at work and he'll be upper management in no time. In the meantime he STILL needs help with the bare bones skills that nurses should have, but is lauded by the charge nurse and treated as her "little precious boy", given a perfect schedule, never working weekends, etc. Meantime there are nurses who work circles around him whose efforts are largely ignored and yet, when a small thing is left undone (not through laziness but through insanely high census and insufficient staffing) they get called on the carpet. Why? Because they don't have the same charisma that this guy has, but hard work seems to largely to unrewarded.

I'm sorry about your experiences, and can relate all too well. I had a similar thing happen when I first started at my job -- my preceptor went to my boss with accusations about me (all of which were unfounded and which she could have easily cleared up with me had she ASKED) that could have cost me my job. Naturally, those accusations saw the light of day and even though they weren't true, they still affect how people perceive me, nearly five years later. So I have to work harder in order to gain the same respect from my co-workers, despite the fact that my patients love me and are forever writing nice notes to my boss about me. Despite the fact that my providers love working with me because I have excellent critical thinking skills but am not a renegade. But because of that one thing (that was false), and because a couple of other people decided something about me that wasn't true, I still have to fight it.

Sometimes, I wish I could be more like you, Tracijo, and just keep my head down and not have people notice me. But because of the nature of what we do as nurses -- we work so closely in teams and the stakes are so high -- unfortunately, certain people get picked on, and for whatever reason, I was one of them. It's odd -- it's never happened to me before, in any job, or even in school. Just at this particular facility. It's only because I love the work that I do that I've stuck with it but it sure as hell makes my job a lot harder than it has to be.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Oct 22, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> On the other hand, I've had a crash course in feminine discourse of late. I hardly ever leave the safety of my cave and now I recall why. Four out of five times much of the gnashing of teeth that goes on among women is over a guy. A guy dates all but rather than call him on his bullshit women will snatch each other's hair out over the thing like the guy was stolen. Rule number one: men go on their own, they are never stolen. Rule number two: any woman who 'steals' a man away has done you a favor and if there is any loss to be handed out it naturally goes to the other woman as part of her prize. In short I don't think overall that men are the source of all our problems but when they are, they shouldn't be.
> 
> That fifth incident of teeth gnashing often occurs due to jealousy, be it professional or personal. I've seen women hate on another woman for no good reason. It's not because the woman has wronged them in some way or visits evil upon the world. It's usually for inert reasons. She's attractive, young, enormously successful at something, outgoing, fashionable, talented, she married well, was born in to wealth or some such thing. In many cases the woman goes way out of her way to be nice and gain favor but most times it's to no avail. Hackles are immediately raised and the woman is hated just because. It is a competative thing and the very definition of the word "catty" in my view. And sorry fellas, this isn't about you either. It's a natural pecking order, a hunter's instinct if you will, and unfortunately it seems many women never outgrow it. It may be a saner state all around for women to just accept the hate as their due and view it as a compliment. Be emboldened to live your life fiercely and cultivate a glorious roar.



You are right Lilly,you can't steal something that is leaving anyways..I have seen those cat fights as well and been in a couple myself..I would tell the woman,"look if he was such a good catch and wanted you,he wouldn't have looked my way." Women need to step back and really look at the whole picture where a man is concerned..Just like when women catch their men cheating,instead of going after the man that cheated in the first place they go after the woman..That's not right..There is no woman in this world that can make a man cheat,not unless he wants to..I went after my ex not his mistress..I totally ignored her..

I agree with what you are saying on the jealousy part as well..I have been guilty of it..I have always had to struggle all my life and always tried to be a good person but some other woman has sailed through life being one of the biggest bitches on the planet and her life has been perfect..At the time it just killed me now I really do not care...Maybe age has soften me or given me a different outlook on life. <shrugs>


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## lypeaches (Oct 22, 2009)

Well since I've been self employed...it takes all the fun out of being catty at work... But yeah, back in the day when I worked for larg'ish garment company with several competing labels, owned by 4 lecherous straight guys, then staffed largely by women and gay men, and yeah, the cattyness was pretty much through the roof. That place was a soap opera.

I'm right with LillyBBW on this issue. Being catty CAN be fun sometimes. But as I've gotten older, I reserve my fun cattiness for celebrity /entertainment gossip. If I feel the need to be catty in my personal life, generally the only person I'll have those conversations with is my sister, because I know I'm safe with her.


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## StarWitness (Oct 22, 2009)

I've been trying to break the habit of shit-talking/gossiping, since it can create a lot of unnecessary negativity. However, sometimes... well, there are situations where cattiness can be a means of short-term balm for emotional wounds. It doesn't solve anything, it's immature, but sometimes you just need to talk shit about your ex with your friends.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't know how many watch Survivor but tonight was a classic case of a group of women discussing another woman behind her back..When the woman being talked about asked a question point blank she got a lot of hemming and hawing but never the real truth..That is how it is in every day life for a lot of women..


Personally I would rather work with 100 men then with 99 men and 1 other woman..That could be because I have been a tom boy all of my life and I understand men better then women...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 23, 2009)

BubbleButtBabe said:


> I don't know how many watch Survivor but tonight was a classic case of a group of women discussing another woman behind her back..When the woman being talked about asked a question point blank she got a lot of hemming and hawing but never the real truth..That is how it is in every day life for a lot of women..
> 
> 
> Personally I would rather work with 100 men then with 99 men and 1 other woman..That could be because I have been a tom boy all of my life and I understand men better then women...



I'm sorta neutral about the whole thing. Men, women, it doesn't much matter. Either people are genuine or they're scum and gender doesn't much impress me one way or the other. I'm pretty much the same with everybody except kids and dogs. I love them. :happy:


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## olwen (Oct 23, 2009)

I see what Dr. Feelgood is saying too and I agree with that. Women have traditionally been denied outright power over all others, but they have been allowed to have power over other women. Even Hatsepshut (I think it was her) had to appear as a man at times to retain her power. Even if it seems like men have nothing to do with it I think they often do even if indirectly. Women who are rather competitive are seen as being a bit masculine, which is stupid. Regardless, if we as women are raised to believe our looks are our most valuable asset (because men somehow set the standards of beauty) then wanting to be the best looking in the group becomes important and any woman who can get by on personality is a threat. Thus catty behavior. Instead of lashing out at men, we lash out at each other.

I get along well with guys and I've been on the receiving end of thin women's jealousy over that. They can't stand that a fat woman could get more attention from a guy than they think they should. It doesn't even matter that those were all just friendships. The claws still came out. In high school a girl I thought was friend started rumors about me that weren't true and when the guy found out he decided he didn't want to associate with her for lying and me for being friends with her in the first place. In my 20s it got more subtle. A chick who I thought was a friend would give me dirty looks whenever she walked off with my close friend. She didn't start rumors but she tried every thing she could think of to keep him away from me. Again, we weren't a couple, but she just couldn't stand that we were close. 

Catty behavior is what that is, over men. And in both cases the women were thin, so I gotta wonder if they both thought that a fat (read ugly) woman shouldn't be able to get more attention from men then a thin (read hot) woman should. And how much of that assumption has to do with retaining the kind of sexual power that women are "supposed" to have? I don't begrudge any woman that sexual power and no doubt men have that kind of power too but it's expressed in different ways. In some ways if a woman doesn't have sexual power which also means power over other women, what other kinds of power are there? These days of course there are other kinds of power, but I don't think that's the first taste of power women get. I think sexual power is. Part of being at the center or top of the social hierarchy in high school is being the best looking girl in school, no?


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## Ruffie (Oct 23, 2009)

I agree with a lot of what you have said Olwen. As a guys gal I have been friends with a good number of men over my life and get grief for it all the time. After a good looking guy pays me attention and wants to hang with me just cause I am real and he can talk to me without all the "fluff" he may get from other women I paid for weeks with comments meant to bring me down from the "ladies" who deemed themselves more worthy of his attention. I had a good friend that I was accused of sleeping with(he also works for me) because we were like best girlfriends and going through a tough time together and the catty bitches called the President of Our Board and calls were made to my family and friends to check out the rumours. 
Because of that we had to cool our friendship to kill the rumours and now we aren't as close as we once were.

As a girl growing up I got the message over and over again that I was not sexually attractive and so learned to rely on my talents and whits to be seen and heard. Now as an adult I realize that these things in combination with the external package are what indeed makes me attractive. I also spent alot of time teaching my boys to look beyond the outer package. I was never so proud of my son when he told me this story. He was at a house party with his friend who is a girl and his ex girlfriend (her cousin) was present. THis ex girlfriend is quite the looker and they had invited a gal who they work with who was rather plain and chubby so not attractive by societies standards. This gal didn't party much and they were encouraging her to get drunk. My son was amazed at how when she would go to the bathroom they would cut her down and talk about getting her drunk and embarrassing her. AFter the second time this happened he got up and addressed his ex saying. You know if I had't dumped you for other reasons I would sure as hell dump you right now. I was the fat kid and have been the victim many a time of people such as you. You are a beautiful girl outside, but inside you are just plain ugly and I want nothing more to do with you or any of you bitches in this room. Told his friend he was going to the car and would give her 5 minutes to come out and if she didn't he was done with her too. 
It is sad that many women get away with stuff like this because they are beautiful by societies standards. We all know they also get away with being less skilled in job situations. I think we as fat women have to work a little harder to been seen and recognized and I for one am willing to put in the work even though I shouldn't have to.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 23, 2009)

I see what y'all are saying but I think generally people are competative by nature. If we went around and slaughtered all the men on the planet we would still have these issue. They would take on newer and more glorious forms but the competative nature would still exist. People would still hate, people would still covet -- such is the state of mankind. If it weren't over men it would be over a can of coke. Men definitley have their influence but I believe this cattyness among women would exist apart from them in an alternate universe. I've been around more than my share of barroom brawls to know that men experience the same kinds of things among themselves. If you've ever been picked up for a date in an Iroc-Z, you know what I'm talking about.


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## Ruffie (Oct 23, 2009)

Oh yes Lilly if its not men its being more successful(in that persons mind), having something another wants, and even feeling like another person is more successful. Its not just a woman's issue its human nature. I personally and from the experiences of my friends both male and female have experienced it more from females than males. So I posted to see what my "gals" had to say here in the BBW forum about this issue.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 23, 2009)

As I have said before, I don't have female friends much. I prefer man for a lot of reasons. The kattiness is #1. I don't like gossip, I don't gossip and I don't like people who gossip. It's destructive behavior. I've seen gossip destroy a marriage. So I don't believe it fun. When I worked outside of the home, most of the women in offices were just horrible. And I knew for sure if they were gossiping about others they were gossiping about me. So, I went in did my job went home. It was all I could do at times not to scream, "SHUT UP ALREADY" at the women who spent most of the day gossiping instead of working.

This topic makes me prickly.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 23, 2009)

Sandie, this isn't personalized to you -- want to be clear about that, since yours is the last post that I see in this thread. These are just my thoughts, right or wrong though they may be.

I wonder at times if women who can't get along with other women have other issues that prevent them from forming attachments/friendships. I wonder this, because the women in my life have for the most part been wonderfully supportive. If I see any cattiness, there is usually a reason involved that I can make sense of -- even if I think that the premise is faulty (jealousy, feeling threatened, etc). I know that I have a very argumentative nature at my core, but there is no malice there - mostly, it is competitive, fueled by my own desire to be "right". I admit that. And when I've had issues with other women, I've also had to acknowledge what *I've* done wrong. And when I've made sincere, heartfelt apologies for my part in misunderstandings, I find that most people (men and women) are empathetic, forgiving, and desire harmony over discourse. We all just want to be acknowledged, seen, and sometimes ... just plain fussed over. Men seem to have a harder time copping to that, in general, but I think it's true of ALL of us. 

I truly do not believe that woman are any cattier than men. I agree with Lilly. It's in human nature to be just what we are ... insecure, petty, jealous ... and also loving, kind, and generous.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 23, 2009)

Oh hell yeah I have issues with women. LOL For good reason. 




TraciJo67 said:


> Sandie, this isn't personalized to you -- want to be clear about that, since yours is the last post that I see in this thread. These are just my thoughts, right or wrong though they may be.
> 
> I wonder at times if women who can't get along with other women have other issues that prevent them from forming attachments/friendships. I wonder this, because the women in my life have for the most part been wonderfully supportive. If I see any cattiness, there is usually a reason involved that I can make sense of -- even if I think that the premise is faulty (jealousy, feeling threatened, etc). I know that I have a very argumentative nature at my core, but there is no malice there - mostly, it is competitive, fueled by my own desire to be "right". I admit that. And when I've had issues with other women, I've also had to acknowledge what *I've* done wrong. And when I've made sincere, heartfelt apologies for my part in misunderstandings, I find that most people (men and women) are empathetic, forgiving, and desire harmony over discourse. We all just want to be acknowledged, seen, and sometimes ... just plain fussed over. Men seem to have a harder time copping to that, in general, but I think it's true of ALL of us.
> 
> I truly do not believe that woman are any cattier than men. I agree with Lilly. It's in human nature to be just what we are ... insecure, petty, jealous ... and also loving, kind, and generous.


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## katherine22 (Oct 23, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> As I have said before, I don't have female friends much. I prefer man for a lot of reasons. The kattiness is #1. I don't like gossip, I don't gossip and I don't like people who gossip. It's destructive behavior. I've seen gossip destroy a marriage. So I don't believe it fun. When I worked outside of the home, most of the women in offices were just horrible. And I knew for sure if they were gossiping about others they were gossiping about me. So, I went in did my job went home. It was all I could do at times not to scream, "SHUT UP ALREADY" at the women who spent most of the day gossiping instead of working.
> 
> This topic makes me prickly.



Most women are working way below their ability since they have internalized a lot of negative crap about their ability. When women work way below their ability then they create nonsense to pass the time, and it becomes open season at work. People who are secure with themselves have less of a need to dog on others.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 23, 2009)

But that's not my fault or my problem. And gossiping about me makes it my problem, and I resent that. It's not just at jobs where I have encountered this, which is another reason I have no women friends. I can't be bothered with people who love you to your face and rip you to shreds behind your back or try to undermine you relationship. Been there too many times, I'm done. I've had 3 best girlfriends in my life - they are still my besties, all I've known since grade school. I trust them, they know me, they don't gossip. For me, that's good enough. I have a best guy friend who tells me all the time - "You're just not feline enough to have tons of women friends." He knows me really well. 




katherine22 said:


> Most women are working way below their ability since they have internalized a lot of negative crap about their ability. When women work way below their ability then they create nonsense to pass the time, and it becomes open season at work. People who are secure with themselves have less of a need to dog on others.


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## olwen (Oct 24, 2009)

I don't think it's that women are more competitive/catty than men are, I just think women just might express it differently. Men might resolve their differences with violence, you know like with a fist fight while women would be manipulative. I realize those are generalizations without justifications, but that's what it seems like to me...


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## Tracii (Oct 24, 2009)

I do hear some catty talk with a few of the ladies at work.
The ladies that do most of it are older than I am and have worked there longer.
The younger girls not so much.We have 2 older sales ladies that really know their stuff and they nit pick on the younger ones all the time.
Being The boss of the office I hear all the bitching and moaning.
Funny all the male sales staff get along great with everybody no complaints EVER.
I think the older ladies resent me being their boss.
1.I'm younger.
2.Haven't been there as long.
3.My pay is higher.(more responsibilty of course and I'm on salary not commision)
They can be sooo bitchy sometimes so I let them set their own work hours and let them off early sometimes so that keeps them pretty quiet.
I'm firm but fair.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 24, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> But that's not my fault or my problem. And gossiping about me makes it my problem, and I resent that. It's not just at jobs where I have encountered this, which is another reason I have no women friends. I can't be bothered with people who love you to your face and rip you to shreds behind your back or try to undermine you relationship. Been there too many times, I'm done. I've had 3 best girlfriends in my life - they are still my besties, all I've known since grade school. I trust them, they know me, they don't gossip. For me, that's good enough. I have a best guy friend who tells me all the time - "You're just not feline enough to have tons of women friends." He knows me really well.



I never have that problem so I've nothing to compare it to. People don't usually gossip about me. When they have, most of it was true anyway so in my view that doesn't really count as gossip. I'm not ashamed of what I do and annoyng though it may be, other opinions don't matter so I never really paid much attention to it. People who don't have enough to do will often fill their hours with stories about celebrities and of what everybody else is doing. Whatever gets them through the day I say. Sometimes gossip has no sinister meaning at all, it's just something to do. 

With this idea in mind it makes me wonder. Are you talking about people who out and out make stuff up about you? Or were they discussing legitimate things and you just didn't like the spin they put on it? Gossip has different meanings to different people.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 31, 2009)

Lol, I have met some "catty", gossipy, petty back stabbing men in my time....it's not an exclusive woman thing. 
That being said, I have been the only women in a work place full of mechanics and later one of the few. I am now working in a place that is predominantly female. 
The upside? Women seem more "sensitive" about the needs of another women and can do some kind/thoughtful things for each other......some of the men I worked with just never thought of some things or didn't care. 
Downside? Women can be CONTROLLING of the stupidest, littlest, mundane things......as in I roll my eyes and turn away because it will only drag me down to comment about it. I haven't ever taken note of such things in males.....even those that are "type A" personalities....they tend to not comment or attempt to control others over very small things in the same way I notice females do. 

These are just my personal perceptions from time spent in the workplace and the differences I have noted in working with each gender.

In all fairness though....my mom can be very controlling....so I might have developed a particular eye for it in women.


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## olwen (Nov 1, 2009)

GEF, men can be just as controlling as women. That's just a universal type of thing. I've known both men and women who were like that.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 1, 2009)

olwen said:


> GEF, men can be just as controlling as women. That's just a universal type of thing. I've known both men and women who were like that.



Sure....I've met manipulative controlling men......but I've never had a guy attempt to control what stickers are in my drawer or how I staple things. Something I have only had happen in my experience with women. 

Men seem more inclined to try and control how I think or feel.


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## Ernest Nagel (Nov 1, 2009)

subscribing


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## olwen (Nov 1, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Sure....I've met manipulative controlling men......but I've never had a guy attempt to control what stickers are in my drawer or how I staple things. Something I have only had happen in my experience with women.
> 
> Men seem more inclined to try and control how I think or feel.



I see what you mean...it's kind of like the difference between controlling and manipulative. My father was both. Everything had to be done his way or it was the wrong way and because he was so charismatic he could convince people of practically anything. On the other hand there are people who need to have things done exactly the way they would do it. They micromanage everything to death. I hate that. But again, I've known both men and women like that.


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## Tania (Nov 1, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I truly do not believe that woman are any cattier than men. I agree with Lilly. It's in human nature to be just what we are ... insecure, petty, jealous ... and also loving, kind, and generous.



Agreed. Some of the biggest, shit-talking backstabbers I've known have been men.


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## Inhibited (Nov 1, 2009)

I honestly do not understand when girls say that they get along better with men than women. Men and women really aren't that much different, i agree with others when they say that men gossip just as much as women, but in my experience there is a good reason why girls do not get along with others of the same sex.

There are very few people i dislike, i get along with most people, sure there are people that i have to associate with at the office who i wouldn't want to hang with outside of work, and people have traits that i do not like, but i don't go out of my way to be mean and nasty, although i can't say the same for them.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Nov 1, 2009)

Most of the time women like myself are totally lost around a group of women..It's that simple...

I think if you were raised in a nearly all male environment like I was,you tend to understand men better then women,plus pick up some of their habits...I was the only female around 10 men/boys most of the time..

I am not very feminine,never have been..I only buy clothes or shoes because I need them,hardly ever because they are this year's style..I have owned the same pairs of shoes probably 7 years..I do not own a pair of heels or a dress(I can hear Ash gasping now..LOL)..I do not wear make-up and can't be bothered most of the time with how I look..I normally wear my hair two ways,really short or really long,so I don't have to style it...

I love sports and can usually spend a day talking about how a team played on Sunday or what car really did run well at Dover..I can discuss hunting and fishing but am totally lost when the talk turns to the latest trends in fashion...

I do have some female friends,not very many,some from when I was in grade school...They all know me as well as I know myself..They all tend to see me as a plain and simple person with tomboy tendencies because that is how I was raised..Not a one of them would ever say I was a frilly,girly type of person...LOL


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