# Has Gaining Gone Too Far?



## bigmac (Jan 27, 2012)

Over the last couple of years I've watched as several beautiful young dimensions women have gained hundreds of pounds. One particularly pretty young woman brags about gaining 300 pounds (200+ to 500+). These young women seem to be enjoying themselves and several have pay sites so they're profiting as well. However, I wonder if in 10, 20, or more years from now they will come to regret purposefully gaining weight.

I'm 100% against dieting but I'm having a hard time seeing purposeful gaining as a good thing. It seems to me that its best for people to accept themselves for who they are -- some folks are destined to be super skinny 95 pounders while others are destined to be super size 500 pounders. Fat or thin everyone's entitled to enjoy life -- including good food. However purposefully gaining may end up being anything but enjoyable.

As many of the people who post here have noted, there are many difficulties and limitations that come with very large size. Its one thing to have to deal with these because that's the hand you were dealt (everyone has to deal with their own personal limitations). However, I'm betting that its going to be very traumatic when these young women reach middle age and have to take stock of and deal with what they purposefully created by forcing bodies that most likely were meant to be moderately fat to be super fat.


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## Ivy (Jan 27, 2012)

I am pretty sure that anyone who intentionally gains weight knows that it could potentially/probably will have some negative consequences on their health in the long term and still decide to do it for their own personal reasons. It's for them to decide if it has "gone too far" or not, as it is their own body and their own personal choice. I'm sure we all appreciate your concern though.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 27, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Over the last couple of years I've watched as several beautiful young dimensions women have gained hundreds of pounds. One particularly pretty young woman brags about gaining 300 pounds (200+ to 500+). These young women seem to be enjoying themselves and several have pay sites so they're profiting as well. However, I wonder if in 10, 20, or more years from now they will come to regret purposefully gaining weight.
> 
> I'm 100% against dieting but I'm having a hard time seeing purposeful gaining as a good thing. It seems to me that its best for people to accept themselves for who they are -- some folks are destined to be super skinny 95 pounders while others are destined to be super size 500 pounders. Fat or thin everyone's entitled to enjoy life -- including good food. However purposefully gaining may end up being anything but enjoyable.
> 
> As many of the people who post here have noted, there are many difficulties and limitations that come with very large size. Its one thing to have to deal with these because that's the hand you were dealt (everyone has to deal with their own personal limitations). However, I'm betting that its going to be very traumatic when these young women reach middle age and have to take stock of and deal with what they purposefully created by forcing bodies that most likely were meant to be moderately fat to be super fat.


 

I'm scared for them. But it's their choice.


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## CastingPearls (Jan 27, 2012)

No matter what anyone feels, it all boils down to two words: body autonomy.


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## bigmac (Jan 27, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> No matter what anyone feels, it all boils down to two words: body autonomy.




You're right of course. But I get a bad feeling when I see young women being egged on down this path.

I'm also old enough to have seen what happens in middle age. I know several people who could have been very healthy 250 to 300 pound women who over ate themselves to 500 pounds. When they return to normal eating their weight returns to where it likely would have been plus a few pounds. However, damaged knees, backs, feet, ... and over stretched skin do no rebound.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 27, 2012)

bigmac said:


> You're right of course. But I get a bad feeling when I see young women being egged on down this path.
> 
> I'm also old enough to have seen what happens in middle age. I know several people who could have been very healthy 250 to 300 pound women who stuffed themselves to 500 pounds. When they return to normal eating their weight returns to where if likely would have been plus a few pounds. However, damaged knees, backs, feet, ... and over stretched skin do no rebound.


 
When I was your age...

We all have to live it to believe it's true. They will have to learn the hard way, like the rest of us.


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## bigmac (Jan 27, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> When I was your age...
> 
> We all have to live it to believe it's true. They will have to learn the hard way, like the rest of us.




Sad but true.


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## Ivy (Jan 27, 2012)

bigmac said:


> You're right of course. But I get a bad feeling when I see young women *being egged on down this path.*
> 
> I'm also old enough to have seen what happens in middle age. I know several people who could have been very healthy 250 to 300 pound women who over ate themselves to 500 pounds. When they return to normal eating their weight returns to where it likely would have been plus a few pounds. However, damaged knees, backs, feet, ... and over stretched skin do no rebound.



With or without the encouragement of men from the community, I personally would still be doing this, as would MANY of the other women who do this for their own pleasure. Just sayin'.


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## Dolce (Jan 27, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Over the last couple of years I've watched as several beautiful young dimensions women have gained hundreds of pounds. One particularly pretty young woman brags about gaining 300 pounds (200+ to 500+). These young women seem to be enjoying themselves and several have pay sites so they're profiting as well. However, I wonder if in 10, 20, or more years from now they will come to regret purposefully gaining weight.
> 
> I'm 100% against dieting but I'm having a hard time seeing purposeful gaining as a good thing. It seems to me that its best for people to accept themselves for who they are -- some folks are destined to be super skinny 95 pounders while others are destined to be super size 500 pounders. Fat or thin everyone's entitled to enjoy life -- including good food. However purposefully gaining may end up being anything but enjoyable.
> 
> As many of the people who post here have noted, there are many difficulties and limitations that come with very large size. Its one thing to have to deal with these because that's the hand you were dealt (everyone has to deal with their own personal limitations). However, I'm betting that its going to be very traumatic when these young women reach middle age and have to take stock of and deal with what they purposefully created by forcing bodies that most likely were meant to be moderately fat to be super fat.



BigMac, I think posts like this, written in this self-righteous fashion, ease your anxiety and guilt more than they enlighten any would be feedees. You also demonstrate a level of anxiety and lack of self awareness that is quite unbecoming. I find your compassion to be of the hysterical variety as opposed to the caring kind.


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## imfree (Jan 27, 2012)

Ivy said:


> With or without the encouragement of men from the community, I personally would still be doing this, as would MANY of the other women who do this for their own pleasure. Just sayin'.



The truth of that is not gender-specific.


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## Saoirse (Jan 27, 2012)

Sure, its your body and you can gain a bajillion lbs if you want... but when you become too weighty to properly take care of yourself BY yourself... then it falls on someone else and I think thats unfair.


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## Saoirse (Jan 27, 2012)

erg nvm. I just see this getting messy.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 27, 2012)

Dolce said:


> BigMac, I think posts like this, written in this self-righteous fashion, ease your anxiety and guilt more than they enlighten any would be feedees. You also demonstrate a level of anxiety and lack of self awareness that is quite unbecoming. I find your compassion to be of the hysterical variety as opposed to the caring kind.


 

Yeah, I didn't see that at all.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 27, 2012)

imfree said:


> The truth of that is not gender-specific.


 

You're right. But try and tell me that the majority of your health problems aren't weight related, Edgar. Your life would be so much easier if you could get around better, no?

That's what I worry about for the younger people gaining. It's not about choice or anything like that, because I do believe you should be able to do whatever you'd like if you're safe. The downfall is actually reaping the terrible consequences and the only people that can explain that are the people that have been there and gone through it. I just wouldn't want anyone to go through the torturous health issues I have from being way too heavy (where mobility is an issue) and I don't gain intentionally.


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## Azrael (Jan 27, 2012)

People do alot of things that we might disagree with.

The whole point of the matter is that they can and it's their choice, even if you think that their choice is self-destructive.


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## immobile1 (Jan 27, 2012)

My new response when someone I don't know comments on my (expanding) size:

As long as smoking is legal I'm going to be as fat as I want to be!

...but I do expect this thread to get messier as the days go on. I'm going to go make a sandwich now.


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## Dolce (Jan 27, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> Yeah, I didn't see that at all.



I just don't see the point in feeling sorry for someone who doesn't feel sorry for themselves.. Seems like a waste of energy and kind of histrionic, IMO . I mean what exactly does the "worrying for" accomplish except to put people on the defensive? I have my own very detailed philosophy of gaining but honestly this just reeks of reaction formation (for those of you who are versed in defense mechanisms). Especially given that the OP has his own feeder fantasies.


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## Ivy (Jan 27, 2012)

imfree said:


> The truth of that is not gender-specific.



you are absolutely correct, my apologies. i wrote it too fast and was mostly thinking of myself and 2 close female friends when writing it. my bad


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## joswitch (Jan 27, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> No matter what anyone feels, it all boils down to two words: *body autonomy*.



^Very much this.

@Bigmac - do you honestly believe that people who pursue gaining are under any illusions about the long term consequences? 

Do you think they have somehow missed the saturation bombardment of the media re: teh evil deathfat and how it will destroy you?

Do you go on tabacco enthusiast or wine appreciation or base jumping boards and wang on about the health issues / risks that (may be) involved in those? How does that go down over there?

And I notice your concern was very specifically for women, not men*, why is that exactly? Do you believe that women are vulnerable little flowers who must be protected from their own decisions, at least as far as the weight of their bodies are concerned? 
How does that stance fit with your other political attitudes, eh? From where I'm sitting there are glaring intellectual inconsistencies in your thinking. 
Is your concern more to do with your own feelings of personal guilt re. being an FA/feeder?


(*There's a whole lot of male gainers out there, btw, just log onto FF for 5mins and see.)


...and now, back to video editing... no, nothing to do with the topic


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## truebebeblue (Jan 27, 2012)

I've commented on this issue loads,I think I even started a thread about it once. It has been beaten to death brought back and beaten again. 

I have been there and it wasn't fun for me,scary and painful and in no way sexy. That being said,
No one is going to change their minds based on others experience. It IS an issue with youth. You never listened to older people even though later you realized they were totally right. People must learn for themselves. 

Do I think they will continue to feel great and be healthy indefinitely? Not likely but it is their choice. I feel the same way re: drugs and alcohol,if you aren't a parent and not hurting anyone,go for it. If you get sick or die you are the only one to blame. I can imagine having your sexuality (and sometimes livelihood)mixed up with what is in most cases LIKELY an eating disorder to be a really hard thing to confront. 

There are some truly great,beautiful women and men in this situation and I wish them THEIR best life. Whatever that is.


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## The Orange Mage (Jan 27, 2012)

truebebeblue said:


> I can imagine having your sexuality (and sometimes livelihood)mixed up with what is in most cases LIKELY an eating disorder to be a really hard thing to confront.



I wouldn't exactly call being turned on by the though of one's body expanding an eating disorder, *unless* you're talking of the kind of folk who are aroused by their own eating, specifically.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 27, 2012)

Dolce said:


> I just don't see the point in feeling sorry for someone who doesn't feel sorry for themselves.. Seems like a waste of energy and kind of histrionic, IMO . I mean what exactly does the "worrying for" accomplish except to put people on the defensive? I have my own very detailed philosophy of gaining but honestly this just reeks of reaction formation (for those of you who are versed in defense mechanisms). Especially given that the OP has his own feeder fantasies.



Where did I say I felt sorry for anyone? I said I felt sad. And that's only from my personal experience that I also mentioned. I'm not judging, just making an observation.


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## imfree (Jan 27, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> You're right. But try and tell me that the majority of your health problems aren't weight related, Edgar. Your life would be so much easier if you could get around better, no?
> 
> That's what I worry about for the younger people gaining. It's not about choice or anything like that, because I do believe you should be able to do whatever you'd like if you're safe. The downfall is actually reaping the terrible consequences and the only people that can explain that are the people that have been there and gone through it. I just wouldn't want anyone to go through the torturous health issues I have from being way too heavy (where mobility is an issue) and I don't gain intentionally.



You're absolutely right, Surly. With my mental make-up, the best I can do to fight the good fight is to minimize the dangers of my obesity. I felt so disfigured and depressed after I lost those 120 lbs in 2 months, a couple years back. The doctors really piled on the praise for my weight loss, despite it being at such a dangerous rate and related to an undisclosed physical or mental illness. The endo told me, yesterday, that I would weigh 500 lbs in 18 months, at the rate I was gaining now, a little over 3 lbs per months. She did not even mention the hefty increases in insulin dosage over the last few months! I'm 56 and had a few increases in insulin dosages, so I would have to work very hard to lose or perhaps, even maintain.

(Not directed at Surly, but to the general public.) Dale Earnhardt was a hero who died doing what he loved, auto racing. I love being fat and that makes me a bastard. No problem, my fuckhead father made me a bastard way before I ever got fat.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 27, 2012)

truebebeblue said:


> I've commented on this issue loads,I think I even started a thread about it once. It has been beaten to death brought back and beaten again.
> 
> I have been there and it wasn't fun for me,scary and painful and in no way sexy. That being said,
> No one is going to change their minds based on others experience. It IS an issue with youth. You never listened to older people even though later you realized they were totally right. People must learn for themselves.
> ...



Exactly this. My experience makes me scared for them, but their choice is theirs.


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## bigmac (Jan 27, 2012)

Ivy said:


> With or without the encouragement of men from the community, I personally would still be doing this, as would MANY of the other women who do this for their own pleasure. Just sayin'.



I'm very aware that eating can be pleasurable for both the person doing the eating and their BF/GF/SO. However, if overdone today's pleasure leads to later pain. My wife enjoyed eating her way to over 500 pounds (I missed this stage of her life -- sort of regret that as I can appreciate the sensual and sexual nature of eating); but now at about 350 pounds with bad knees and ankles (and the after effects of botched WLS) she greatly regrets taking the eating so far. Since she suffers from Lipedema she was never going to be thin but if she had just eaten well and tried to be as active as possible she would probably have stayed a midsized BBW. I myself really enjoy eating -- I'm not dieting and I wouldn't encourage anyone to diet. Just thinking its not good to go to the extreme.


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## Ash (Jan 27, 2012)

Every intentional gainer has heard a thousand times how hard she's going to have it in ten years or twenty years or thirty years. And, believe me, we hear it, and we know. We know that our joints will be destroyed and that we may have diabetes and that we will have trouble getting around. These are things that anyone who is seriously gaining weight for his or her own reasons knows and thinks about daily. 

Here's the bottom line, though. It's not your business. You can cluck around and worry over us, or you can accept that we are adults who are making our own decisions about how we want to live our lives. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.


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## Ash (Jan 27, 2012)

bigmac said:


> I'm very aware that eating can be pleasurable for both the person doing the eating and their BF/GF/SO.



It's not about eating. It's not. This is a huge misconception.


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## thatgirl08 (Jan 27, 2012)

In a very general sense I understand where you're coming from and can agree with you on some points. I chose to stop doing paysite modeling and to keep the feeder/feedee part of my life to a minimum because I was (and still am) highly concerned about the impact on my health (physical and mental.) I lost some of the weight I gained with an ex-boyfriend (feeder/FA) and am currently working on continuing to lose more because I would feel healthier, happier and more comfortable at a smaller size. But the key here is this - I made decisions based on how I felt about my body and what would make me happy. I strongly encourage everyone to do the same regardless of whether or not I agree with their decisions. If gaining weight makes someone happier, then so be it because at the end of the day they're the ones that have to be satisfied with themselves.. it doesn't really matter what you, or me, or anyone else thinks. 

I also just have to say it makes you sound like a condescending jerk to come onto a site with many SS women and talk about what they should've or could've done so they wouldn't be facing health issues.. you do realize that many people are painfully aware of the impact of their size on their lives, right?


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## Paquito (Jan 27, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> No matter what anyone feels, it all boils down to two words: body autonomy.



This is really the only response. I'll admit that I've voiced my opinion in some more problematic cases (where I will fully cop to the fact that my opinion was unwarranted). I still believe that gaining should be YOUR choice: don't do it because it will give someone else a rush. Do it for you, because that's what you want. But ultimately, a person's body is their property and it's really none of my business.


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## FA Punk (Jan 27, 2012)

Ashley said:


> Every intentional gainer has heard a thousand times how hard she's going to have it in ten years or twenty years or thirty years. And, believe me, we hear it, and we know. We know that our joints will be destroyed and that we may have diabetes and that we will have trouble getting around. These are things that anyone who is seriously gaining weight for his or her own reasons knows and thinks about daily.
> 
> *Here's the bottom line, though. It's not your business. You can cluck around and worry over us, or you can accept that we are adults who are making our own decisions about how we want to live our lives. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.*



So if anybody has a genuine concern for your own well being can just fuck off then right? Your family opinions don't matter, your close friends opinions don't matter, just your own. Wow, thats really selfish. So you know whats coming and you know it's most likely not gonna end well for you but you do it anyway and for what a turn on? I'm sorry but I don't see how you can enjoy something that has such a grimm future in store for you.

And even if you do lose weight and get healthier all the weight you've forced your body to pile on is going to effect your over all health for the rest of your life, so again I ask you and all the ''gainer models'' what is all this worth to you? The only positives I can see from your life style is alittle extra spending money for school and the admiration from a group of people that really don't care about you, well that and you don't want them care about you.


Personal choice or what ever it's still sad to see all this self destruction going on, and you can flame me all you want and I don't care cause what I said needed to be said. With younger girls getting into paysite modeling some of them starting out as soon as they turn 18, to this basic idea if you want to be successful at it you better gain a large amount weight, I would say yes ''gaining'' has gone too far at least when it comes to what you paysite girls are doing.

This reminds of VivaLaValerie on Dr. Drew's Lifechangers, at the very end of the show she cried, she cried because of what was going on in your in your little ''paysite scene''. What a sad state of affairs indeed.


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## thatgirl08 (Jan 27, 2012)

FA Punk said:


> So if anybody has a genuine concern for your own well being can just fuck off then right? Your family opinions don't matter, your close friends opinions don't matter, just your own. Wow, thats really selfish. So you know whats coming and you know it's most likely not gonna end well for you but you do it anyway and for what a turn on? I'm sorry but I don't see how you can enjoy something that has such a grimm future in store for you.
> 
> And even if you do lose weight and get healthier all the weight you've forced your body to pile on is going to effect your over all health for the rest of your life, so again I ask you and all the ''gainer models'' what is all this worth to you? The only positives I can see from your life style is alittle extra spending money for school and the admiration from a group of people that really don't care about you, well that and you don't want them care about you.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure you're allowed to be selfish when it comes to your body. No one - not your family, not your friends, and especially not random ass people on the internet - have the right to tell you what to do or not do with it.


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

FA Punk said:


> So if anybody has a genuine concern for your own well being can just fuck off then right? Your family opinions don't matter, your close friends opinions don't matter, just your own. Wow, thats really selfish. So you know whats coming and you know it's most likely not gonna end well for you but you do it anyway and for what a turn on? I'm sorry but I don't see how you can enjoy something that has such a grimm future in store for you.
> 
> And even if you do lose weight and get healthier all the weight you've forced your body to pile on is going to effect your over all health for the rest of your life, so again I ask you and all the ''gainer models'' what is all this worth to you? The only positives I can see from your life style is alittle extra spending money for school and the admiration from a group of people that really don't care about you, well that and you don't want them care about you.
> 
> ...



Of course the opinions of my loved ones matter. Luckily they are of the opinion that I'm smart enough to make my own decisions, and that is what I do. I gain because I like myself fatter. I gain because it's what I want. 

And thank you for telling me exactly who I am because I'm a model and that means you know everything about me. Just so you know, though, I've been a part of the fat scene for over 10 years, a self-driven gainer for over 10 years, and I've only been a model for just over 3 of them. Whether I was modeling or not, I would be gaining. You can blame it all on my "little paysite scene" if you want to, but it's not the truth. 

One more note: you can't determine my level of health by the size of my body. The fat acceptance movement has been trying to convince the mainstream of this since it began. It's sad that once someone gets to a certain size that whole idea gets thrown out, even in our own community.


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## Dolce (Jan 28, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> Where did I say I felt sorry for anyone? I said I felt sad. And that's only from my personal experience that I also mentioned. I'm not judging, just making an observation.



Surlysomething, 

First of all this is not meant to be an attack on you but rather a diffuse opinion on the use of pity and psuedo empathy to shame and manipulate people.

So imagine a person (could be a stranger, your sister, your neighbor, brother-in-law, whatev) comes up to you in any given situation and says, "I'm not JUDGING you or anything but it makes me really sad that you are fat. I mean it really makes me FEEL REALLY SAD, you know. But... no judgement or anything. Just thought you should know that I pity you." You know what I would say? I would say something really effing rude in return and I would NEVER.. EVER trust that person when I have a problem. Because really who are you to feel sad for people you don't even know or understand? Can you see how condescending that is? Most people don't want pity, they want understanding. In my experience, people that want pity are generally co-dependent and incapable of grown up communication in the first place. 

I would guess most of us here on Dims already live in glass houses so best we not throw stones.

"Make no judgments where you have no compassion." - Anne McCaffrey


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## Wild Zero (Jan 28, 2012)

FA Punk said:


> So if anybody has a genuine concern for your own well being can just fuck off then right? Your family opinions don't matter, your close friends opinions don't matter, just your own. Wow, thats really selfish. So you know whats coming and you know it's most likely not gonna end well for you but you do it anyway and for what a turn on? I'm sorry but I don't see how you can enjoy something that has such a grimm future in store for you.
> 
> And even if you do lose weight and get healthier all the weight you've forced your body to pile on is going to effect your over all health for the rest of your life, so again I ask you and all the ''gainer models'' what is all this worth to you? The only positives I can see from your life style is alittle extra spending money for school and the admiration from a group of people that really don't care about you, well that and you don't want them care about you.
> 
> ...



As I see it, you're calling someone I consider a friend and someone you've never met nor spoken to their friends or loved ones about their gaining, selfish for not living up to your arbitrary standards of good fatty/bad fatty.

At the same time you're over in a paysite thread pissing and moaning about a new model having previously expressed interest in WLS. So up or down on the scale's out of the question for FA Punk.

And you're doing all this control freak, straight and narrow "good fatty" bullshit with a pro wrestling avatar and username. You want to talk about destructive, look at that industry, where even the top performers are "independent contractors" and have little in the way of health care or job security. And yet you continue to support that industry, and (this is similar to the hitjob you did on Ashley but fuck you) based on your love of CM Punk I imagine you consider yourself a smark of some degree and as such spend a good chunk of your disposable income greasing the wheels of pro wrestling.

What a jagaloon.


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## Tracyarts (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't think any of them are naive as to what the end result is likely to be. If you spend any time at all around the fat subculture, it's right there in front of you. 

Tracy


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## MystifyMe (Jan 28, 2012)

I work in the hospital industry and have to deliver barriatric equipment for the obese ppl and hospitals are at breaking point now due to overweight ppl, and thw cost to care for a ssbw is alot more then a regular person, so whose footing the bill for the extra ppl it requires to look after someone larger, i know it takes 3-4 nurses to move them out of bed and wash them and so on..we get stuffed around every day when we go to homes of ssbws and have to wait for their carers to get there to move them so we can replace their mattress and so on, 

i know alot of doctors eventually will refuse to care after ppl who put their body at harm on purpose, same way as smokers dont get special treatment anymore, they k now the risks so suffer the consequences, i just feel sorry for the nurses who brek their backs at work caring for these patients.


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

So what about supersize people who didn't gain intentionally? Should they be refused care as well? 

This is a fat board still, right? Where we accept and support fat people and some of us are even attracted to them? Oh, but once they get to a certain weight, they should be ashamed of themselves. Unless they're trying to lose weight or have lost weight, of course. Those are the good fatties. 

Along the lines of knowing the risks/suffering the consequences, what about people who need extra care because they participated in some other risky behavior? Should someone who was injured while skydiving be refused care as well? Do you feel bad for that person's nurses too? 

I just want to make sure I'm getting this all straight.


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> I work in the hospital industry and have to deliver barriatric equipment for the obese ppl and hospitals are at breaking point now due to overweight ppl, and thw cost to care for a ssbw is alot more then a regular person, so whose footing the bill for the extra ppl it requires to look after someone larger, i know it takes 3-4 nurses to move them out of bed and wash them and so on..we get stuffed around every day when we go to homes of ssbws and have to wait for their carers to get there to move them so we can replace their mattress and so on,
> 
> i know alot of doctors eventually will refuse to care after ppl who put their body at harm on purpose, same way as smokers dont get special treatment anymore, they k now the risks so suffer the consequences, i just feel sorry for the nurses who brek their backs at work caring for these patients.



I worked in a nursing home and I cared for a lot of people who were well over 350 lbs. We transferred them to a tub or shower using 2 people. If they were especially heavy we used 3 or a lift. Funny thing is we would use 2 people to move an 80 lb fragile patient and often used a lift. Point being you don't have to use 4 people to move someone, it's all in the technique and make a plan so you do it right.


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2012)

Silly rabbit, fat acceptance is only for those of certain sizes who are trying to or want to get to a size closer to "normal".


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## MystifyMe (Jan 28, 2012)

when its an emergency and they have to get them off the bed asap to go to surgery they do, as the barriatric bed doesnt fit thru the door of the hospital, we had to transport it in on its side, 

i witnessed 4 murses have to get the patient off the bed asap, and i have heard of ambos being called out to get supersize ppl to hospital and have left them there, there was a case a few years ago where one patient died as they refused to move them..


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> when its an emergency and they have to get them off the bed asap to go to surgery they do, as the barriatric bed doesnt fit thru the door of the hospital, we had to transport it in on its side,
> 
> i witnessed 4 murses have to get the patient off the bed asap, and i have heard of ambos being called out to get supersize ppl to hospital and have left them there, there was a case a few years ago where one patient died as they refused to move them..



I think I lost track of your argument...unless you're saying that it's the supersize person's fault he or she died because medics refused to do their job. Then I hear you loud and clear but have lost a good deal of my faith in humanity.


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> when its an emergency and they have to get them off the bed asap to go to surgery they do, as the barriatric bed doesnt fit thru the door of the hospital, we had to transport it in on its side,
> 
> i witnessed 4 murses have to get the patient off the bed asap, and i have heard of ambos being called out to get supersize ppl to hospital and have left them there, there was a case a few years ago where one patient died as they refused to move them..



HMM kinda surprising since most hospitals I know of have loading door for bulky equipment to fit through. Any kind of specialized bed runs the risk of having to be moved into hard to fit rooms in tricky ways. I remember us spending hours trying to get a sand bed into a fairly narrow door of a patients room.


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## MystifyMe (Jan 28, 2012)

the bed fit into the hospital and into the lift but not into the ward, there was no angle to wheel it into, so we had to put it on its side.. in Sydney not all hospitals have standard size wards, lifts or doors so some wards vary, i deliver to every hospital in sydney and some of our beds are too big for some lifts at the older hospital so have to send smaller size ones


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## Paquito (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> when its an emergency and they have to get them off the bed asap to go to surgery they do, as the barriatric bed doesnt fit thru the door of the hospital, we had to transport it in on its side,
> 
> i witnessed 4 murses have to get the patient off the bed asap, and i have heard of ambos being called out to get supersize ppl to hospital and have left them there, there was a case a few years ago where one patient died as they refused to move them..





MystifyMe said:


> I work in the hospital industry and have to deliver barriatric equipment for the obese ppl and hospitals are at breaking point now due to overweight ppl, and thw cost to care for a ssbw is alot more then a regular person, so whose footing the bill for the extra ppl it requires to look after someone larger, i know it takes 3-4 nurses to move them out of bed and wash them and so on..we get stuffed around every day when we go to homes of ssbws and have to wait for their carers to get there to move them so we can replace their mattress and so on,
> 
> i know alot of doctors eventually will refuse to care after ppl who put their body at harm on purpose, same way as smokers dont get special treatment anymore, they k now the risks so suffer the consequences, i just feel sorry for the nurses who brek their backs at work caring for these patients.



Wow. Love how this isn't even about people gaining, just SS people in general. Sweet size acceptance there.


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> the bed fit into the hospital and into the lift but not into the ward, there was no angle to wheel it into, so we had to put it on its side.. in Sydney not all hospitals have standard size wards, lifts or doors so some wards vary, i deliver to every hospital in sydney and some of our beds are too big for some lifts at the older hospital so have to send smaller size ones



So it would be possible that if a special bed had to be put in for a 90 lb person, it might have trouble fitting in the door as well. More of a structural issue truthfully. That's what I mean by planning. A good team would make sure that if there were issues regarding being able to fit a bed into a certain area, one might want to look for an alternate area in the hospital that would be more feasible.


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## FA Punk (Jan 28, 2012)

Wild Zero said:


> As I see it, you're calling someone I consider a friend and someone you've never met nor spoken to their friends or loved ones about their gaining, selfish for not living up to your arbitrary standards of good fatty/bad fatty.
> 
> At the same time you're over in a paysite thread pissing and moaning about a new model having previously expressed interest in WLS. So up or down on the scale's out of the question for FA Punk.
> 
> ...



I haven't spent a dime on pro wresting in years, yeah I comment on the wrestling thread every once in awhile but thats as far as I go with it anymore I just haven't changed my avatar and I don't think you can change your name around here so thats it you got nothing buddy. Oh and that other thing I'm sorry but if I see something I see as bullshit I comment on it thats just how I am. Now granted the person you mentioned has gotten in contact with me and has told me she has changed her mind about FAs, which was what was upsetting me in the first place it had nothing to do with WLS, nice try though. And with that I'm done I've said my piece and counted to three so you guys can fight amongst yourselves now.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 28, 2012)

Ultimately, the "intentional gaining" behavior mechanic is just another form of "live fast, die young" or "YOLO". The concept being that there's nothing you can do to stave off death, so enjoy life while you can, and so what if you hasten the inevitable in the process?

*note: I do not live by the YOLO standard.


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## MystifyMe (Jan 28, 2012)

we told them if there is an emergency u cant rush them out on the bed, they said oh well its the only room we have for the patient so will have to do, as i said the hospitals are at breaking point, the NSW health system is in a disaster, so not alot of planning going on, the NSW government owes our company over 1 million dollars but cant pay it as they dont have the money


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## Surlysomething (Jan 28, 2012)

Dolce said:


> Surlysomething,
> 
> First of all this is not meant to be an attack on you but rather a diffuse opinion on the use of pity and psuedo empathy to shame and manipulate people.
> 
> ...



Haha. I don't pity anyone.

Stop putting words in my mouth and move on. And again, I never said sad, I said scared. If you're going to attempt to school me, at least get it right.


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## MystifyMe (Jan 28, 2012)

cinnamitch said:


> So it would be possible that if a special bed had to be put in for a 90 lb person, it might have trouble fitting in the door as well. More of a structural issue truthfully. That's what I mean by planning. A good team would make sure that if there were issues regarding being able to fit a bed into a certain area, one might want to look for an alternate area in the hospital that would be more feasible.



no a special bed would for a 90lb person fit in the room,. but the 1.2 metre mattress needed for the barri bed meant we had to send the biggest one we have, it can hold 600 pounds, most of the barri beds we have are smaller, the problem was we couldnt get it on the room as it was on the bend of a hallway,


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

FA Punk said:


> I haven't spent a dime on pro wresting in years, yeah I comment on the wrestling thread every once in awhile but thats as far as I go with it anymore I just haven't changed my avatar and I don't think you can change your name around here so thats it you got nothing buddy. Oh and that other thing I'm sorry but if I see something I see as bullshit I comment on it thats just how I am. Now granted the person you mentioned has gotten in contact with me and has told me she has changed her mind about FAs, which was what was upsetting me in the first place it had nothing to do with WLS, nice try though. And with that I'm done I've said my piece and counted to three so you guys can fight amongst yourselves now.



Then I take it I've changed your mind. Awesome!
heh


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> we told them if there is an emergency u cant rush them out on the bed, they said oh well its the only room we have for the patient so will have to do, as i said the hospitals are at breaking point, the NSW health system is in a disaster, so not alot of planning going on, the NSW government owes our company over 1 million dollars but cant pay it as they dont have the money



I suggest you see how much it costs to provide care for the elderly, the premature babies and such. I am sure you will find the main amount of hospital costs go to that.


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## MystifyMe (Jan 28, 2012)

most of our work is for aged care, but barriatric products and services cost alot more..


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

MystifyMe said:


> most of our work is for aged care, but barriatric products and services cost alot more..



And specialized products for any group will cost more. Ever price those incubators for preemies? But then again they aren't horribly fat are they? 
That's what it all boils down to. Do you think we don't get the message. Oh the concern wah wah. It's ok to be fat if its up to a certain point. I mean come on the guys come on here looking for a fat girl. So if I am to understand it, the ones of us who don't meet the "standard" of acceptable weight are facing death, costing the taxpayers money and are just a bunch of fu**ing losers. Will you and the other concerned folks please post what weight is acceptable and put it out in a memo to us. I mean give me a break, I'm not even a paysite model and I'm offended. I am however one of those gross fatties who cost you good taxpayers money with all this specialized care that I do not get. Pfft. At the end of the day it is their bodies to do with what they want. Maybe one day they will all get pissed and just close their sites down and ya'll can play with yourselves.


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## Dolce (Jan 28, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> Haha. I don't pity anyone.
> 
> Stop putting words in my mouth and move on. And again, *I never said sad*, I said scared. If you're going to attempt to school me, at least get it right.






Surlysomething said:


> Where did I say I felt sorry for anyone? *I said I felt sad.* And that's only from my personal experience that I also mentioned. *I'm not judging*, just making an observation.



But to be fair I suppose you did misquote yourself...


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## Weeze (Jan 28, 2012)

Guys... Like why is this thread even here anymore? Ashley shut it the fuck down at the top of pg 2. Fat people who are fat shaming is seriously blowing my mind right now. I get what being big/getting bigger does to my body. Trust me, I've read about it in the other 20 threads we have about this stuff. At the end of the day, when I leave the internet forum... I'm going to do what makes me happy and what makes ME feel good, and you're not going to have a say in it... because why should you?


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## LovelyLiz (Jan 28, 2012)

Ashley said:


> snipped
> One more note: you can't determine my level of health by the size of my body. The fat acceptance movement has been trying to convince the mainstream of this since it began. It's sad that once someone gets to a certain size that whole idea gets thrown out, even in our own community.



Really, I think the argument has to come down to body autonomy, and not to emphasize the health aspect. While someone's size does not give a clear picture of their health, if someone chooses to binge frequently, indulge in a lot of junk foods, and not exercise, those are simply not healthy behaviors. (Not that you do this - I don't know you at all and I have no idea, just commenting in terms of what I've read of others engaging in weight gain.) Arguing that unhealthy behaviors are healthy isn't going to make the point in a way that is compelling, because we all know that certain ways of living are simply better for the body than others. The point that counts is that it has to remain up to the individual as to whether they want to engage in healthy or unhealthy behaviors, or how much of each they choose to partake in.



MystifyMe said:


> I work in the hospital industry and have to deliver barriatric equipment for the obese ppl and hospitals are at breaking point now due to overweight ppl, and thw cost to care for a ssbw is alot more then a regular person, so whose footing the bill for the extra ppl it requires to look after someone larger, i know it takes 3-4 nurses to move them out of bed and wash them and so on..we get stuffed around every day when we go to homes of ssbws and have to wait for their carers to get there to move them so we can replace their mattress and so on,
> 
> i know alot of doctors eventually will refuse to care after ppl who put their body at harm on purpose, same way as smokers dont get special treatment anymore, they k now the risks so suffer the consequences, i just feel sorry for the nurses who brek their backs at work caring for these patients.



All of your posts blew my mind, MystifyMe. I will just say one thing to you: ALL PEOPLE SHOULD RECEIVE THE MEDICAL TREATMENT THEY NEED in ways that respect their humanity and dignity. Period.


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## penguin (Jan 28, 2012)

mcbeth said:


> All of your posts blew my mind, MystifyMe. I will just say one thing to you: ALL PEOPLE SHOULD RECEIVE THE MEDICAL TREATMENT THEY NEED in ways that respect their humanity and dignity. Period.



And the medical industry SHOULD cater to us. They cater to everyone else and their needs, so if more people are getting bigger, then they should be adapting and make allowances for that instead of shaming us.

The amount of body and fat shaming going on here is unsettling, especially from those who claim to be FAs.


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

penguin said:


> And the medical industry SHOULD cater to us. They cater to everyone else and their needs, so if more people are getting bigger, then they should be adapting and make allowances for that instead of shaming us.
> 
> The amount of body and fat shaming going on here is unsettling, especially from those who claim to be FAs.



Maybe it needs to be renamed FA* and then a footnote at the bottom letting everyone know the acceptable weight to be.


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## penguin (Jan 28, 2012)

cinnamitch said:


> Maybe it needs to be renamed FA* and then a footnote at the bottom letting everyone know the acceptable weight to be.



It's like we just can't win, even within the community. Some of us are "too big" as we are apparently, yet at the same time others will tell us that we're not big enough. 

I can't help but think that the acceptance part has gone out the door, as some around here act like the women are here solely as decoration and to give them spank bank material, that the actual woman doesn't matter as long as she's the "right" fat for them.

What I choose to do with my body is my business, whether that's lose, gain or maintain. I try to make the right choices for my health myself, and it's my body so it's my choice. The only people whose opinions will matter on the subject are mine and my partner's, and even then, in the end it's my decision how I want to live.


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## chicken legs (Jan 28, 2012)

Ashley said:


> I think I lost track of your argument...unless you're saying that it's the supersize person's fault he or she died because medics refused to do their job. Then I hear you loud and clear but have lost a good deal of my faith in humanity.



Join the club. Escapist went to the quick care center and the nurses called him princess and treated him so bad he left without treatment. I'm still pushing to have him file a complaint because he ended up going back and getting treated.


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## chicken legs (Jan 28, 2012)

This thread is bringing up issues the "Plea to Fat Women" and the "Do you get annoyed when your partner can't do something because they are fat?" brought up and I'll leave it at that..


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## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

Forgotten_Futures said:


> Ultimately, the "intentional gaining" behavior mechanic is just another form of "live fast, die young" or "YOLO". The concept being that there's nothing you can do to stave off death, so enjoy life while you can, and so what if you hasten the inevitable in the process?
> 
> *note: I do not live by the YOLO standard.



I'm thinking you're right. However, intentional gainers are not going to flame out fast.


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## LifeTraveller (Jan 28, 2012)

penguin said:


> And the medical industry SHOULD cater to us. They cater to everyone else and their needs, so if more people are getting bigger, then they should be adapting and make allowances for that instead of shaming us.
> 
> The amount of body and fat shaming going on here is unsettling, especially from those who claim to be FAs.




I am indeed a FA, moreover, I've been one for longer than most folks on here have been alive. . I'm proud to be an FA, and for over 20 years was married to one of the most beautiful, women on the planet. Without going over the story, she went from a moderate sized bbw, to a SSBBW over the course of our marriage.

She understood the consequences of her actions. .She knew she was genetically predisposed to being fat. She loved food, and was indeed addicted to it. She knew it but was unable to resist it. I supported her in any way I could, if she wanted to diet, I would support her in whatever she wanted to do. . I defended her against the critics who berated her over her size (including her daughter who blamed me and everyone else for her mother's size and weight) My wife knew no matter what, I was on her side! 

I never told her what she needed to do, as if any of us can tell a sentient being what to do. They have a free will, and we can make suggestions, but in the end they will do as they choose. We also do not have the right to "force" people to do what we believe they "need" to do. . It is a difficult road for all those involved when it comes to "what to do". There's no simple answer..in the end, it all depends on the choices we as individuals make.. We can either accept them and go on with life, we can dislike them and shun the person (bad choice I think) or you can agree to disagree and go on with life. It all boils do to what we as fellow human beings are willing to accept. I will also not be shamed by a third party for not "getting someone to do what they need to do". That is a slippery slope!!

And please. . do not get me started on the medical profession!! I fought with more Doctors over treatments over the past years... In some cases, modern medical treatments are more dangerous than doing nothing!! I'll not say any more lest I relive the rage I have against "conventional medicine's treatment" of those who do not fit their standards. . ugh!


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## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

Blackjack said:


> Silly rabbit, fat acceptance is only for those of certain sizes who are trying to or want to get to a size closer to "normal".



NO!!! But acceptance can be undermined by intentional gainers. Most fat folks did not intentionally get fat. For most its totally involuntary -- its just part of who they are. Fat acceptance seeks to have fat people accepted for who they are.

However, many in the general public blame fat people for being fat. And believe that fat people can all easily loose weight if they would just put down the fork. Intentional gaining feeds this belief and, therefore, undermines fat acceptance. So in addition to being detrimental individually its detrimental collectively.


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## cinnamitch (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> NO!!! But acceptance can be undermined by intentional gainers. Most fat folks did not intentionally get fat. For most its totally involuntary -- its just part of who they are. Fat acceptance seeks to have fat people accepted for who they are.
> 
> However, many in the general public blame fat people for being fat. And believe that fat people can all easily loose weight if they would just put down the fork. Intentional gaining feeds this belief and, therefore, undermines fat acceptance. So in addition to being detrimental individually its detrimental collectively.



So if they gain intentionally to say oh 450-500 lbs it's detrimental individually, yet if they can't help it and gain to the same weight, its more "acceptable"? Dude fat is fat, it has no idea who is gaining intentionally or not so if you are going to be all gung ho about health and such then you might as well put all of us big ol fatties in that little package you are trying to pass off as being concerned. Most of the general public has no way at all of knowing just by looking at a person whether they are intentionally as fat as they are. TO THEM all fatties are bad when you go above a certain amount.. Seems like it is that way to a few here as well.


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## joswitch (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> NO!!! But acceptance can be undermined by intentional gainers. Most fat folks did not intentionally get fat. For most its totally involuntary -- its just part of who they are. Fat acceptance seeks to have fat people accepted for who they are.
> 
> However, many in the general public blame fat people for being fat. And believe that fat people can all easily loose weight if they would just put down the fork. Intentional gaining feeds this belief and, therefore, undermines fat acceptance. So in addition to being detrimental individually its detrimental collectively.



Last time I checked fat people had not been collectivised into their own communist state.

Body autonomy:
It means - other people don't get to tell you what to do with your very own personal body, for whatever reason.
It means - you, and you alone, are ultimately responsible for any consequences thereof.

Bigmac - you have a fundamental problem with the self-determination of the individual. You are, at heart, a conformist/collectivist in search of a mass subscribed socio-politics where you can feel comfortably, emotionally accomodated. You're embarassing yourself by attempting to resolve your own internal psychodrama with tutting and wagging of fingers at those who choose a different path.

Re: Your red herring argument. Fat haters hated fat people long before the internet brought them news of gainers. Haterz gonna persist in hating, regardless. Fatphobia has nothing at all to do with logic.


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## Dromond (Jan 28, 2012)

Thread summary: Size acceptance has a weight limit.

Um... no. It doesn't.


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## butch (Jan 28, 2012)

mcbeth said:


> Really, I think the argument has to come down to body autonomy, and not to emphasize the health aspect. While someone's size does not give a clear picture of their health, if someone chooses to binge frequently, indulge in a lot of junk foods, and not exercise, those are simply not healthy behaviors. (Not that you do this - I don't know you at all and I have no idea, just commenting in terms of what I've read of others engaging in weight gain.) Arguing that unhealthy behaviors are healthy isn't going to make the point in a way that is compelling, because we all know that certain ways of living are simply better for the body than others. The point that counts is that it has to remain up to the individual as to whether they want to engage in healthy or unhealthy behaviors, or how much of each they choose to partake in.
> 
> 
> 
> All of your posts blew my mind, MystifyMe. I will just say one thing to you: ALL PEOPLE SHOULD RECEIVE THE MEDICAL TREATMENT THEY NEED in ways that respect their humanity and dignity. Period.



The first part of your post makes me wonder exactly how we define health, and how we rank certain aspects of health. If we're taking holistically, how can one say that certain physical behaviors are healthy if they cause an unhealthy mental state? What if, on the whole, someone is healthier participating in certain behaviors that most of us would classify as unhealthy if their mental health is much improved? If stress is a major source of many unhealthy conditions, then perhaps doing things to minimize one's stress through questionable physical behaviors might, on the whole, be a better choice for the individual.

I ask because it sounds like the people who are self-identifying as intentionally gaining weight are doing so because it would cause major mental distress if they didn't. Many of us are familiar with the feelings we get when we diet, and for many of us, size acceptance is merely the refraining from doing a behavior that does not work (dieting). We know how miserable we feel when we diet, and we see that the only way it might remotely work is if we stay in that miserable state for our entire lives. Before people shoot me down, I'm not saying all dieters do or should feel this way, but I know few people who enjoy dieting as a lifetime practice.

So, in SA circles many say, "Hey, if it makes you miserable, if it ruins your quality of life, don't do it, be happy in your size, and learn to practice behaviors that make you feel healthy at your size" Can't that also be true for people who intetionally gain, instead we say to them "If you feel like your best self when you gain weight, then be happy in your size, and learn to practice behaviors that make you feel healthy at your size."

Considering that the American Psychological Association is pretty close to putting obesity into the revised DSM as a mental disorder requiring mental health treatment, we all should be more careful about diagnosing some in our community as having eating disorders or being mentally unhealthy just because they derive pleasure from gaining weight, since the larger world wants to classify us all, at all sizes and all levels of 'health,' as being in need of mental health treatment.


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## MistahSmooth_CT (Jan 28, 2012)

Dromond, cinnamitch, Ashley, I agree with you all. I am an FA myself, and I love girls who both are big, intentionally or unintentionally gain weight. Sure the gaining part is frowned upon, but we are all here to accept our partner for who they are, and also if they are into gaining, then you know what? It's their own right, it's like some of the beautiful ladies have been saying, it's *their* body, and who am I, or who is this site, or who is anyone to tell them different. 

We all have our kinks, and I have to say, ever since I was like 14 I knew that I loved bigger women, and size had no limit to me. As a person that has a godsister that just died from intestinal problems, and was also a person of size, this topic that has shifted to size and medical issues it's a sore topic, I personally believe that the medical profession should be there for people of any size, no matter what. 

But as I have said before, I am equal opportunity, I believe that the women that I have seen on this site, both gainer and non-gainer, are very beautiful.


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## Fat Brian (Jan 28, 2012)

I will never understand the good fatty/bad fatty game some people want to play. I thought SA was for every fat person regardless of how they became fat, I didn't realize that the only worthy fatties were those who are fat from genetics or illness, my bad.


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> NO!!! But acceptance can be undermined by intentional gainers. Most fat folks did not intentionally get fat. For most its totally involuntary -- its just part of who they are. Fat acceptance seeks to have fat people accepted for who they are.
> 
> However, many in the general public blame fat people for being fat. And believe that fat people can all easily loose weight if they would just put down the fork. Intentional gaining feeds this belief and, therefore, undermines fat acceptance. So in addition to being detrimental individually its detrimental collectively.



So fat acceptance is only for the good fatties, then.


----------



## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

cinnamitch said:


> ...
> 
> Most of the *general public has no way at all of knowing* just by looking at a person whether they are intentionally as fat as they are. *TO THEM all fatties are bad* when you go above a certain amount.. Seems like it is that way to a few here as well.



Exactly, this is why the fat acceptance movement is an uphill battle. Intentional gainers -- even though they are a very small group -- give bigots and hateful people a justification for their hate and bigotry.


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## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

joswitch said:


> Last time I checked fat people had not been collectivised into their own communist state.





Looks like some people still see Reds under every bed.

Seriously, the last time I checked *civil society is a two way stree**t*. While I believe that society needs to take care of it members (i.e. provide medical care, education, disability payments ...) I also believe that individuals have an obligation to behave reasonably. When people voluntarily engage in self-destructive behavior they undermine the welfare state (and that's not a bad word) they will ultimately end up relying upon. This hurts everyone.


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## BBWTexan (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Exactly, this is why the fat acceptance movement is an uphill battle. Intentional gainers -- even though they are a very small group -- give bigots and hateful people a justification for their hate and bigotry.



There is no justification for hate and bigotry toward any group of people. The fault lies with the haters and the bigots, not with their targets. Period.

Would you suggest that a gay man be less flamboyant because his behavior was providing justification for homophobes to feel the way they do?
Absolutely not. 

I've always been amazed by how much people care about what other people do with their lives or their bodies. If you are making personal decisions for you about your body, that is your business and yours alone.

The world would be a much better place if folks just stuck to minding their own business. Considering that's pretty much a full-time job, we'd all be better off sticking to keeping our own houses in order... kind of hard to do when we're too busy critiquing everyone else's.


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Exactly, this is why the fat acceptance movement is an uphill battle. Intentional gainers -- even though they are a very small group -- give bigots and hateful people a justification for their hate and bigotry.



Only if the people in our own community allow that. The people outside of fat acceptance that we are supposed to be fighting this battle with couldn't care less how fat people got fat. We're all the same. Going down the "sure she's fat but it's not her FAULT" road is both useless and dishonest. There should be no good fatty versus bad fatty in fat acceptance. We're all fat, and we all deserve the same acceptance.


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## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

BBWTexan said:


> There is no justification for hate and bigotry toward any group of people. The fault lies with the haters and the bigots, not with their targets. Period.
> 
> Would you suggest that a gay man be less flamboyant because his behavior was providing justification for homophobes to feel the way they do?
> Absolutely not.
> ...



I'm not talking about pressure from the outside -- I'm talking about action from within the community.

The better gay analogy is the community's response to AIDS. People from *within* the gay community engaged in outreach advocating against what had become self-destructive practices and advocating for safe sex practices. All with very positive results in the end although many feathers were ruffled along the way.

IMHO the size acceptance community should be doing the same thing. Advocating in favor of healthy living regardless of size and educating about the dangers of self-destructive behavior.

Bathhouse culture was bad for the gay community. Feeder/gainer culture is bad for the size acceptance community. Gay culture changed. Ours can too.


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## Dromond (Jan 28, 2012)

Flag on the play! False equivalency fallacy! Penalty, 10 yards! 4th down!


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> I'm not talking about pressure from the outside -- I'm talking about action from within the community.
> 
> The better gay analogy is the community's response to AIDS. People from *within* the gay community engaged in outreach advocating against what had become self-destructive practices and advocating for safe sex practices. All with very positive results in the end although many feathers were ruffled along the way.
> 
> ...


 
Your analogy is really terrible. Intentional gaining has no more health consequences than unintentional gaining. The end result is the same. If unsafe sex made gay people gayer, then yes, this would be comparable. It doesn't, so it's not.


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## joswitch (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Looks like some people still see Reds under every bed.
> 
> Seriously, the last time I checked *civil society is a two way stree**t*. While I believe that society needs to take care of it members (i.e. provide medical care, education, disability payments ...) I also believe that individuals have an obligation to behave reasonably. When people voluntarily engage in self-destructive behavior they undermine the welfare state (and that's not a bad word) they will ultimately end up relying upon. This hurts everyone.



and who defines "behave reasonably"?
You?
Oprah?
"Dr" Phil?
Meme Roth?
Rick Santorum?

and by "hurts everyone" you mean "costs money".
Last I checked fat people pay tax and health insurance just like everyone else...
Just like smokers..
And alcoholics...
But it's not socially mandated to hate them, is it?

You seem desperate to police other people's behaviour, Bigmac, and that's a pretty ugly character trait. Sanctimonious, in fact.


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## BBWTexan (Jan 28, 2012)

Dromond said:


> Flag on the play! False equivalency fallacy! Penalty, 10 yards! 4th down!



This. Exactly.

The gay community did not push for a change in behavior (in this case, having sex with other men). The focus was on making that behavior safer by using protection. Additionally, AIDS is something that can be passed on to other people. I've spent countless hours with intentional gainers and even after sharing meals, space and time, I've somehow never "caught" it.

Once again, the bottom line is that your personal actions that affect only you, are no one's business but your own. Period.
In this case, the actions of a gainer do not in any way harm the physical well-being of anyone else, so why would they be anyone else's concern?


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## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

joswitch said:


> ...
> 
> Just like smokers..
> And alcoholics...
> ...



Whose talking about hate? We encourage smokers and alcoholics to quit. Doesn't mean we hate them.

When I was four -- after seeing the first round of anti-smoking commercials -- I dug a big hole in the backyard and buried my dads cigarettes (two cartons of Kents). Didn't mean I hated him -- indeed I did it because I didn't want him to die. He never smoked again.


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## musicman (Jan 28, 2012)

Ashley said:


> One more note: you can't determine my level of health by the size of my body. The fat acceptance movement has been trying to convince the mainstream of this since it began. It's sad that once someone gets to a certain size that whole idea gets thrown out, even in our own community.



Very well said, Ashley! That, for me, is the bottom line here.



Ashley said:


> The people outside of fat acceptance that we are supposed to be fighting this battle with couldn't care less how fat people got fat. We're all the same. Going down the "sure she's fat but it's not her FAULT" road is both useless and dishonest. There should be no good fatty versus bad fatty in fat acceptance. We're all fat, and we all deserve the same acceptance.



That's an excellent statement of what we face. Fat people are all indistinguishable to the fat-haters. And by the same token, I don't see much difference between the anti-fat messages in this thread (supposedly disguised as "concern") and the anti-fat messages I hear in the outside world!


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## bigmac (Jan 28, 2012)

BBWTexan said:


> ...
> 
> In this case, the actions of a gainer do not in any way harm the physical well-being of anyone else, so why would they be anyone else's concern?




Ask the family who has to take care of and then bury a loved one who ate themselves to death if they weren't harmed. Ask a child who has to take care of a parent who can't take care of themselves if they weren't harmed.


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## joswitch (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> I'm not talking about pressure from the outside -- I'm talking about action from within the community.
> 
> The better gay analogy is the community's response to AIDS. People from *within* the gay community engaged in outreach advocating against what had become self-destructive practices and advocating for safe sex practices. All with very positive results in the end although many feathers were ruffled along the way.
> 
> ...



Asshat analogy, there, as awesome Ash already asserted.

Newsflash for ya Bigmac:
Gainers, Feedees, Feeders, Encouragers + even Admirers have already been vilified to the apogee of hyperbole* and were all kicked out of mainstream size acceptance ages ago. So, you're preaching to penguins** with that argument.


(*comparisons have been made to Nambla, FFS! and more than once
**new metaphor, I like eeet.)


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## joswitch (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Whose talking about hate? We encourage smokers and alcoholics to quit. Doesn't mean we hate them.
> 
> When I was four -- after seeing the first round of anti-smoking commercials -- I dug a big hole in the backyard and buried my dads cigarettes (two cartons of Kents). Didn't mean I hated him -- indeed I did it because I didn't want him to die. He never smoked again.



:doh:
do try to keep up. Or are you being deliberately obtuse? Careful, that could cause you problems in later life!

You said: deliberate gainers justify societally approved fat hate.
I pointed out that: it's not societally mandated to hate smokers and drunks, who also engage in deliberate behaviours just like gainers.
Therefore:
Fat hate is not built on a foundation of appeal to logic, and your argument is busted. QED.


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## joswitch (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Ask the family who has to take care of and then bury a loved one who ate themselves to death if they weren't harmed.


Boilerplate fat-hate on DIMs! And it only took you 4 pages to get there! Pat yourself on the back.


> Ask a child who has to take care of a parent who can't take care of themselves if they weren't harmed.



ZOMMFG! WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!
arhhxrtvhbylsrhojomivcrabni!!!


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## BBWTexan (Jan 28, 2012)

bigmac said:


> Ask the family who has to take care of and then bury a loved one who ate themselves to death if they weren't harmed. Ask a child who has to take care of a parent who can't take care of themselves if they weren't harmed.



To me that still sounds like a person's personal business - family business. Still not sure how that means the "size acceptance movement," whatever that means to you, should be involved in how anyone conducts their own affairs.


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## LovelyLiz (Jan 28, 2012)

butch said:


> The first part of your post makes me wonder exactly how we define health, and how we rank certain aspects of health. If we're taking holistically, how can one say that certain physical behaviors are healthy if they cause an unhealthy mental state? What if, on the whole, someone is healthier participating in certain behaviors that most of us would classify as unhealthy if their mental health is much improved? If stress is a major source of many unhealthy conditions, then perhaps doing things to minimize one's stress through questionable physical behaviors might, on the whole, be a better choice for the individual.
> 
> I ask because it sounds like the people who are self-identifying as intentionally gaining weight are doing so because it would cause major mental distress if they didn't. Many of us are familiar with the feelings we get when we diet, and for many of us, size acceptance is merely the refraining from doing a behavior that does not work (dieting). We know how miserable we feel when we diet, and we see that the only way it might remotely work is if we stay in that miserable state for our entire lives. Before people shoot me down, I'm not saying all dieters do or should feel this way, but I know few people who enjoy dieting as a lifetime practice.
> 
> ...



To be clear, I was never diagnosing anyone with an eating disorder or a mental health issue. I was talking about certain behaviors as being more promoting of bodily health, or not. Though, you are absolutely right that someone's "health" is really a holistic concept that should include the effects certain physical behaviors may have on their larger emotional or mental disposition. That's a really important point that I sometimes don't acknowledge as carefully as I should.

I agree that health is holistic, and that mental health and bodily health are connected - and that dividing them is a false binary. But for that reason, if someone is going to use a health argument or claim to be pursuing health, then I feel like they both have to be prioritized, y'know? 

I think most of us would agree that someone should not have to sacrifice their emotional health or happiness in pursuit of some kind of ideal of bodily health. This is especially true because we see the link between the two - and that stress and depression and all those things have adverse effects on the body. But then what about the other side of the coin: sacrificing bodily health in pursuit of someone's ideal of mental health? 
(For the record, I am saying anyone can do whatever they want - I'm just wondering about how this idea of "health" plays out in wanting to define certain types of behaviors, like gaining, as "healthy". But no one is obligated to pursue any other person's ideal of health, and it is never okay to shame anyone who doesn't fit a particular definition.) 

If body/emotions/mind are indeed all connected and health is a holistic concept (which I think it is and I am really glad you brought up), and we want to describe behaviors as healthy or to pursue health, then that has to include valuing the health of our entire beings - including thinking about what we do with our bodies, right? (Again, not saying anyone is obligated to do any particular thing - just saying that an idea of holistic health can't ignore bodily practices.)

As I write this I'm realizing all the slipperiness of all these concepts, and I'm not sure what I was trying to get at comes through in the above. But anyway...I appreciate being able to think through some of this more.


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## butch (Jan 28, 2012)

Thanks for your response, McBeth, you bring up some good points to discuss. I apologize if it seemed I was claiming you had said anything about eating disorders and mental illness; I used your post as a jumping off post for other ideas floating around in this thread, and those concepts did come up in other folks' posts.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 28, 2012)

This thread is closed. 

How fat is too fat, regardless of how weight is reached, is not a value judgement allowed here and these topics are too intertwined to exist independently. 

You can't throw stones in one direction without hitting others, and having any fat members here feel that they are now too fat, too far beyond having medical care and basic dignity over themselves and their bodies, is absolutely not allowed.


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