# BBW guilt for liking the typical 'hot' male or female?



## Pitch (May 7, 2011)

I hope this is the right place for this.

Firstly, let me say that I do -also- like BHM and BBW myself. Especially large "viking" style BHM with the blond beards and there's something about larger asian girls that gets the-- *wipes drool*. Sorry, sorry. Herp!

Bottom line, when I see a swarthy or pretty (long hair...augh) or avante-garde classy guy who might fit into the stereotypical hot guy trope I, just as my thinner counter parts go a little weak in the knees.

One of two things happens and both are related to guilt.

Internal lambasting: Saw a very tall, nicely built man running along the sidewalk in front of the clinic and kind of leered to myself thinking "Yeaaah-haaah...you just keep running. Enjoying the view immensely". (By the way I am an abortion clinic escort to clear up any confusion) And in the same day saw a very, very attractive thin woman in suede boots on a motorcycle and kind of went WHOA at her. though silently. The following internal dialogue danced between "And what chance do YOU think you have with THEM, Pitch? You're shaped like a blueberry. Be realistic. ): " and then "For all your wanting to be SA, that girl couldn't be more than 120 and the guy looked like one big, tall drink of muscle. Hypocrite, much?"

External Lambasting: Self explanatory-- people reminding you that so-and-so is out of your league due to your size or they might try to set you up with someone now and then just because the person they would like to recommend to you is also big. As if that means your personalities would instantly click.

Anyone else experience this?


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## Christov (May 7, 2011)

If you're attracted, you're attracted. No big deal.


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## penguin (May 7, 2011)

You like what you like. Why beat yourself up over it? I don't feel like I need to lock myself into only liking a particular type.


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## Pitch (May 7, 2011)

Christov said:


> If you're attracted, you're attracted. No big deal.




Yeah, as I would like to say and believe. But the whole guilt thing still hangs around. I'm just stuck on one thing: Is it self esteem, society or both?


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## Christov (May 7, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Yeah, as I would like to say and believe. But the whole guilt thing still hangs around. I'm just stuck on one thing: Is it self esteem, society or both?


Why even get stuck on it? Nobody worthwhile is going to judge you, really.


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## Pitch (May 7, 2011)

Christov said:


> Why even get stuck on it? Nobody worthwhile is going to judge you, really.



...Hrm. Well played, sir. Well played indeed.


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## penguin (May 7, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Yeah, as I would like to say and believe. But the whole guilt thing still hangs around. I'm just stuck on one thing: Is it self esteem, society or both?



You get to a point in life where you decide to not let what others think (or might think) get in the way of living your life and being true to yourself.


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## Pitch (May 7, 2011)

penguin said:


> You get to a point in life where you decide to not let what others think (or might think) get in the way of living your life and being true to yourself.




Me sentiments exactly. The inner voice will always be there, though. Something to chew on, at least for me.


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## The Orange Mage (May 7, 2011)

Trust me, if you see something, and you want it, you're worth it.


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## mossystate (May 7, 2011)

I am a fat woman and I feel zippity doodah zero guilt for enjoying the look of the men that catch my eyeballs. 

When I remind myself that there isn't a person on the planet who doesn't doubt themselves, I am better able to put a human face on even those ' amazing ' creatures that are supposedly out of my league, according to some.


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## CarlaSixx (May 7, 2011)

The only time I really feel any guilt, is when I find out they're taken.

Do I feel guilt when the "hot" single ones get my attention? Nope  I feel fruuuusssssstrateddddddd!!  lol. The frustration is of knowing the ones I'm eyeing are into waif model types.


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## Pitch (May 7, 2011)

mossystate said:


> I am a fat woman and I feel zippity doodah zero guilt for enjoying the look of the men that catch my eyeballs.
> 
> When I remind myself that there isn't a person on the planet who doesn't doubt themselves, I am better able to put a human face on even those ' amazing ' creatures that are supposedly out of my league, according to some.




Favorite reply so far! I'm quoting this somewhere. Some how.

Carlasixx:

Yeah, I know that feeling. Well.


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## Kamily (May 7, 2011)

Christov said:


> If you're attracted, you're attracted. No big deal.



Thats very true.


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## lalatx (May 7, 2011)

You cannot help who you are attracted to plan and simple. If anyone says anything about it they are not worth your time.


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## CastingPearls (May 7, 2011)

Some men/women are attracted to thin people
Some men/women are attracted to fat people
Some men/women are attracted to people (no preference or prefer all)
Different strokes. 
Life is too short for guilt.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 7, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Some men/women are attracted to thin people
> Some men/women are attracted to fat people
> Some men/women are attracted to people (no preference or prefer all)
> Different strokes.
> Life is too short for guilt.



The shortest and best summation of SA I've read yet. :bow::bow::bow:


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## bigmac (May 7, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Some men/women are attracted to thin people
> Some men/women are attracted to fat people
> Some men/women are attracted to people (no preference or prefer all)
> Different strokes.
> Life is too short for guilt.



The forgoing is of course true. The problem is that people with conventional good looks often -- not all the time but often -- have conventional attitudes. Over the years I've seen many people swoon over conventionally good looking people of the opposite sex (and in a few cases the same sex). The majority of these obsessions ended in disappointment.


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## curvydiva445 (May 7, 2011)

I've certainly felt guilty about it before, but I am kind of attracted to all different types. I have dated guys who weighed 400 lbs and guys who weighed 120. Attraction is attraction and sometimes somebody just has something that gets you all revved up lol. 

Also, it's hard not to be attracted to some body types when you are constantly being told that THAT is what you should want.

I know I always have been and always will be a sucker for Johnny Depp!


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## AnnMarie (May 7, 2011)

Christov said:


> If you're attracted, you're attracted. No big deal.



This. 


No one is out of anyone's league because attraction is subjective. A conventionally "hot" woman could go up to any of my former boyfriends and I doubt they'd do more than think she's pretty, but would look a lot better with 200lbs on her. 

Some FAs I've known have been so hot it almost hurts to look at them, and some are not my cup of tea - and I'm quite sure I'm not interesting to all of them either. 

I have no guilt for liking what I like, and I've found that it varies anyway. There are physical traits that I find hot, that push my buttons, but there's also factors like personality, beliefs, humor, that can push someone from "ok" to "I want to jump you" in a heartbeat. 


Enjoy what you enjoy - no apologies.


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

AnnMarie said:


> This.
> 
> 
> No one is out of anyone's league because attraction is subjective. A conventionally "hot" woman could go up to any of my former boyfriends and I doubt they'd do more than think she's pretty, but would look a lot better with 200lbs on her.
> ...



Very, very well spoken!


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## mszwebs (May 8, 2011)

I do not feel guilt, but I was told, in 2005, that I was betraying my fellow fat people, by not going after fat guys.

Please keep in mind, I never said I didn't like fat guys. I just didn't like HIM.

Which was apparently a problem.


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

mszwebs said:


> I do not feel guilt, but I was told, in 2005, that I was betraying my fellow fat people, by not going after fat guys.
> 
> Please keep in mind, I never said I didn't like fat guys. I just didn't like HIM.
> 
> Which was apparently a problem.



OH MY GOD THAT HAPPENED TO ME

But I had to be like "its not that you're fat. You're a bear-type, I like bears. You're an entitled ASSHOLE." and he still didnt get it.


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## AnnMarie (May 8, 2011)

mszwebs said:


> ,,, that I was betraying my fellow fat people, by not going after fat guys.
> ...




Oh that happens a lot - I've heard it more times than I can count.


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## SSBBW Katerina (May 8, 2011)

AnnMarie said:


> Oh that happens a lot - I've heard it more times than I can count.



Oh, yes, ditto. I've gotten that from others too.


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

AnnMarie said:


> This.
> 
> 
> No one is out of anyone's league because attraction is subjective.



This is not true -- scientists have show that beauty follows a very specific formula: Symmetrical features; healthy skin, hair,and teeth; hourglass shape for women // V-shape for guys. Add an overlay of social stigmas to this and you'll see what anyone who has ever been to a South Miami Beach nightclub already knows -- unless you're one of the very fortunate few beautiful people -- there are indeed lots of people who are out of your league (and mine).


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## yourhandsonyourhips (May 8, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Internal lambasting: Saw a very tall, nicely built man running along the sidewalk in front of the clinic and kind of leered to myself thinking "Yeaaah-haaah



What if he noticed you and felt guilty for finding you hot? Now you both are avoiding something that could be really fantastic, and instead you're both sitting at home posting on the internet feeling guilty


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

yourhandsonyourhips said:


> What if he noticed you and felt guilty for finding you hot? Now you both are avoiding something that could be really fantastic, and instead you're both sitting at home posting on the internet feeling guilty



Oh, he definitely did not. I could see by his demeanor that he was only thinking RUN RUN RUN and not about the short Rubenesque female looking at him as if he was the statue of David.

Not that you post doesnt count, though. It's still a good point. I know it's illogical for me to feel guilty about wanting to slice off a piece of that jerk, but I do.


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## yourhandsonyourhips (May 8, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Oh, he definitely did not. I could see by his demeanor that he was only thinking RUN RUN RUN



So there's the guilt! You feel guilty for wanting to be all up in the business of someone who does not want you up in their business. I'm not sure that's a bad thing - that's just anti-creeper feelings really.

The key is to just not categorize that guy as "Men who look like that think that," and instead, "Men who think that think that"


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## CastingPearls (May 8, 2011)

I'm only interested in people who have an interest in worshiping me but I'm fickle like that.


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> I'm only interested in people who have an interest in worshiping me but I'm fickle like that.




I need to co-opt this interest _fast._ Especially considering I like my worship thighs-and-under. Coughespeciallyfeetcough.


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## littlefairywren (May 8, 2011)

I don't understand why we have to feel guilty for something that is beyond our control. We're all hardwired differently, and to fight it is pointless. Fat is not a state of mind...a lot of us here just happen to be fat, and our tastes are numerous. It's like saying all short people should fancy other short people because their short etc. If someone makes you happy, loves the air that you breathe, and it feels right for the both of you...then go with it.


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

yourhandsonyourhips said:


> So there's the guilt! You feel guilty for wanting to be all up in the business of someone who does not want you up in their business. I'm not sure that's a bad thing - that's just anti-creeper feelings really.
> 
> The key is to just not categorize that guy as "Men who look like that think that," and instead, "Men who think that think that"



Hrn, good point there. Definitely more egalitarian that what I'd try to rationalize it as...though I pride myself on being egalitarian as all hell.


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## Ample Pie (May 8, 2011)

I keep thinking this says "quilt."

Sorry.

Carry on.


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## littlefairywren (May 8, 2011)

Ample Pie said:


> I keep thinking this says "quilt."
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Carry on.



Ha, so did I


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## joswitch (May 8, 2011)

I first read the thread title as:

"BBW Quilt for liking the typical 'hot' male or female?"

I was all like - whut? you need a special quilt? 
or is it some kind of communal craft thing? Like a sexeh Bayeux tapestry..


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## joswitch (May 8, 2011)

penguin said:


> You like what you like. Why beat yourself up over it? I don't feel like I need to lock myself into only liking a particular type.



^What Penguin said.


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> I'm only interested in people who have an interest in worshiping me but I'm fickle like that.



Yes!!! The sexiest people out there are the one who think you're hot.


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## joswitch (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> This is not true -- scientists have show that beauty follows a very specific formula: Symmetrical features; healthy skin, hair,and teeth; hourglass shape for women // V-shape for guys. Add an overlay of social stigmas to this and you'll see what anyone who has ever been to a South Miami Beach nightclub already knows -- unless you're one of the very fortunate few beautiful people -- there are indeed lots of people who are out of your league (and mine).



Let me tell you something about scientists. Newsflash - most scientists don't get out much, and what they don't know about why / where / what / who is getting jiggy with it would fill many, many large libraries.

South Miami Beach is just one small petri dish in great lab of life.


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## Ample Pie (May 8, 2011)

No one is "out of your league." Someone may not find you to be their type, but that isn't nearly the same thing... say someone on "physical attractiveness rung A" finds you to be not his/her type, that doesn't mean that other people on that same rung will feel the same way. That I can back up with lots of anecdotal evidence.


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## Donna (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> This is not true -- scientists have show that beauty follows a very specific formula: Symmetrical features; healthy skin, hair,and teeth; hourglass shape for women // V-shape for guys. Add an overlay of social stigmas to this and you'll see what anyone who has ever been to a South Miami Beach nightclub already knows -- unless you're one of the very fortunate few beautiful people -- there are indeed lots of people who are out of your league (and mine).



This is a big steaming pile of horseshit built on a scientific platform. They might be out of your league, but not because of how you look. 

I am not arguing that science hasn't shown that some cultures prefer symmetrical features and the like that are associated with "conventional" beauty. But to make the statement that people are somehow out of someone's league is not only insulting, it is patently FALSE. This is why some of the people who have posted in this thread are struggling with guilt over liking someone whom they have been convinced is "out of their league." 

Chemistry and attraction cannot be reduced to a mere scientific equation. When I was single, I was approached by too many men and women whom you would probably consider out of my league. Surely I am not special...I am not the only fat person who has been approached by or involved with people who are "out of my league." And I'm really bothered by the whole attitude that somehow fat people are only supposed to be attracted to other fat people...or non-"conventionally attractive" people. it just reinforces the whole attitude that somehow we're not the same; we're the "other" and therefore should stick with our own "kind". 

Relationships and attraction are already complicated enough without adding guilt into the mix, in my opinion.


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## asmiletoday (May 8, 2011)

I don't really have a physical type, I have a mental/personality type. Funny, witty, charismatic guys are my downfall.... oh and like castingpearls worshiping required.


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## Ample Pie (May 8, 2011)

I didn't start dating, really, until I was 18. And even then, it wasn't serious, because I bought into the idiotic idea that, as a fatty, I didn't have a sexuality or a right to be attracted to whomever caught my fancy. I internalized the idea that the very act of my being attracted to someone was somehow an insult to them.

That is, of course, ridiculous and it led me to do all kinds of nutso, insecure things that I probably won't divulge here--and as I was a juvenile, I'm pretty sure the records are still closed.* Anyway, when I was 19, I met Will and he was the most amazing person I'd ever met--brilliant, strange, outgoing, worldly, etc. I fell quite madly in love with him but never believed it was worth the risk to pursue him because, frankly, he was waaaaay out of my league.

Turns out, he had a crush on me at the same time I was crushing on him. He and I became best friends and never dated, but while I was his friend, I got to watch this beautiful man and see the world through his eyes. He was pretty conventionally attractive, though he did have a hint of quirk, too. And he fancied me...and not just me. That man loved fat (or, as he called them, round) women.

I know it's terribly naive of me, but I don't think I realized how normal it was to be attracted to whatever the hell you might be attracted to until I met and got to know Will. Here was this guy that anyone buying into the tripe I'd bought into (the tripe labeled "science" above) would think was WAY WAY out of my league and...he wasn't. What kept us from dating wasn't my being fat and him being conventionally attractive, not even close. Moreover, because he was so conventionally attractive (not to mention brilliant, etc) and he liked fat girls, it sort of "normalized" it for me. 

If Great Good Will liked fat girls, then there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with liking fat girls; there couldn't be--at least that's how it seemed in my head. And if there was nothing wrong with liking fat girls, there was nothing wrong with fat girls liking whomever the hell they liked. Will encouraged me to look at the people I passed in my everyday life and find qualities I might find attractive in every one.

So I did this for a year...on campus, in downtown Cincinnati (where Will and I worked), at concerts, wherever. For every single person I passed, I thought of something about them that I found attractive. And in the end, I realized just how freaking subjective it is.

I'm not beautiful. I'm just not. This isn't low self esteem, I'm actually pretty confident, but I have bad skin and no style. Haha, that is so true I can't even tell you. I'm also a hairy mofo and have to beat back the jungles with machetes.** I've said it before and I'll repeat it now: I am not beautiful, but I can sometimes pull off cute. Sometimes, though, I can't even do that. And never in the history of my dating career have I felt like there was anyone I couldn't land if I wanted them.

I realize that sounds big-headed and I do apologize for the unseemly lack of modesty, but...it's true. Since I accepted the fact that I have a sexuality and am perfectly entitled to the attractions I feel (whether I act on them or not), I have only once been rejected in any of my pursuits. 

Now, in all honesty, not all of the pursuits have gone particularly well, but I've not ever been rejected or turned down except, funnily enough, by my current boyfriend--who rejected me twice, technically, before he agreed to be my boyfriend. 

Additionally, when I'm out--even with my way hotter best friend--people talk to me. They just come up to me and talk with me. I'm talking everyone from professional baseball players to customers of the store where I worked---just anyone and everyone, the whole spectrum of attractiveness levels, the whole spectrum of genders and sexualities, etc.

I don't know why and I know it isn't something that's particularly special about me or how I look...and it certainly isn't because I'm symmetrical (I'm about as far from symmetrical as it is possible to be, actually), but it happens. And if I were to assess every man and woman I've been with or dated, I could honestly say that 90% of them were conventionally attractive. At least 20% of them were in the arena of "perfect 10s."

As Donna said--my story can't possibly be unique. Thus, I just can't believe in the whole "out of my league" nonsense. There will always be people who find me exceptionally less than attractive, but there will also always be people on the same level of attractiveness as those people who find me oddly cute. And why should those folks be denied _all this_ just because they're conventionally attractive--that would be discrimination on my part. 

* Just kidding
** Also just kidding


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

i don't think anyone should guilt themselves out for the attraction they feel. hot guys, average guys, fat guys whatever all have their points of attraction for various reasons. what i've found over the years is that even though its easy to note the outside at first the thing that keeps you warm in the end is a person's heart. it keeps the sex life hot and the mental emotional bond going. there are no trade offs for that. 

having said all of that i think there is no harm in analyzing our own strictly physical attractions and reflecting on them. many times i have noticed BBWs giving BHMs the cold shoulder, even turning away from them at a dance. the people who do that really do need to think of why. i mean, if a guy does that to a fat girl she will come in here crying about how mean rude and unfair that is. but somehow its okay for her to disrespect someone simply because she may not be physically attracted. its a double standard thats hard to like or support for any reason. being decent to somebody else doesn't require a marriage. its not that much of an investment to simply be civil. if someone can't just because of how someone looks then they have a problem they need to look at IMO, particularly someone who faces their own size discrimination. i think seeing those things did make me extra protective of BHMs and made me pay even more attention to how i treated them out of a need for basic kindness and human respect rather than any kind of guilt. sometimes i felt that the bs just needed to be made up for.

i also think its good to think about why a woman (can't speak for guys) are always running after the "hot" little boys who look like a preteen dream who often look sexless or even effeminate. i know i often wonder is there something in women who are attracted to that for the same reason young girls are? do they feel desires they aren't really capable of fulfilling yet either? are they really afraid of men who are adult mature and fully sexual and require them to be fully sexual and wholey invested in their bodies? is it simply just going after the thing that was missed out on in youth that seemed untouchable? it might be worth examining if women are in their thirties and something about fully adult men still scares them. 

i don't think anyone should feel guilty about the stages in life they have to go through but its good to try and be conscious of where you really are and whats actually playing itself out in your love life. i think that trying fly blind just makes it take longer to get to your destination. i know i used to go just the opposite way of not giving very attractive guys a chance because i never wanted to use anyone for looks or be blinded to their true character because of what they looked like. i didn't want to overlook great guys just because they were considered to be average. i was always interested in making sure that what i felt for someone was real. real is extremely important to me. but then i realized i was giving great looking men a hard time because i did not give them the credit for having the same chance of being men of depth and character as anyone else. thats something i had to correct in my own mind and i'm really glad i took the time to do it. i was able to let someone very special in because of it.


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## mossystate (May 8, 2011)

And there are ' ugly ' fat women who are given the cold shoulder by many a ' fa '. 

Lesson?

Be nice, but don't think you have to give everything the other person wants.

Plop.


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

mossystate said:


> And there are ' ugly ' fat women who are given the cold shoulder by many a ' fa '.
> 
> Lesson?
> 
> ...



Yes, and don't think you have everything the other person wants. I'm not saying that people should feel the least bit guilty for liking a certain physical type [we all like to look at nice looking people (fat or thin)]. I'm just saying that a realistic assessment of one's romantic capital creates reasonable expectations and saves a lot of heartache.

When I was single I applied this rule to myself.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Yes, and don't think you have everything the other person wants. I'm not saying that people should feel the least bit guilty for liking a certain physical type [we all like to look at nice looking people (fat or thin)]. I'm just saying that a realistic assessment of one's romantic capital creates reasonable expectations and saves a lot of heartache.
> 
> When I was single I applied this rule to myself.



exactly. i'm not sure that romantic capital as anything to do with what you look like or how much money you have etc...unless you can read the minds of everyone you can never be sure. i have met guys, for instance, who have nothing to do with this BBW thing and don't fit the FA stereotype who've gone absolutely wild over a big woman--sometimes the only one they've ever gone out with. i know i've been attracted to guys who thought i was out of their league and the only thing that kept me from them was their attitude. 

the problem is sometimes we all believe the hype and don't give each other the chance to be individual people. we talk ourselves out of everything good as though we don't deserve it somehow. thats the thing that probably causes us more heartache than we realize. what if you miss out on the absolute love of your life because you thought they were too beautiful for you? then you realized years later they felt as strongly for you as you did for them? what a waste.


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## AnnMarie (May 8, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i also think its good to think about why a woman (can't speak for guys) are always running after the "hot" little boys who look like a preteen dream who often look sexless or even effeminate. i know i often wonder is there something in women who are attracted to that for the same reason young girls are? do they feel desires they aren't really capable of fulfilling yet either? are they really afraid of men who are adult mature and fully sexual and require them to be fully sexual and wholey invested in their bodies? is it simply just going after the thing that was missed out on in youth that seemed untouchable? it might be worth examining if women are in their thirties and something about fully adult men still scares them.



Felicia, I've read a lot of presumptuous, intended-to-provoke things from you, but this really has to take the cake. 

I know you'll come back and say that my reaction means I feel that this is truth, it's hitting a nerve, it's just too close to home and some people can't take that... but that's not it and I know me and my motivations. 

It's another reason that women are judged for their own sexuality, for stepping outside of societal bounds for what they "should" want, for wanting what THEY want and being with someone who wants them, no matter who it is. 

Just on the idea that if a woman isn't into a man that YOU consider "manly enough" then there is something wrong with them or they're living in a delayed social/emotional state is beyond patronizing and none of your supposed "sisters" need to be spoken down to in that manner. 

I guess this another way of you lifting us all up? C'mon.


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## mossystate (May 8, 2011)

And female ' fa's ' who prefer fat guys with baby faces and no chest hair?

Don't mind me...I am just throwing more rotted wood on the fire.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

AnnMarie said:


> Felicia, I've read a lot of presumptuous, intended-to-provoke things from you, but this really has to take the cake.
> 
> I know you'll come back and say that my reaction means I feel that this is truth, it's hitting a nerve, it's just too close to home and some people can't take that... but that's not it and I know me and my motivations.
> 
> ...



nope i'm not going to say it hits a nerve or even that its true. its just an exploration. like i said, its something i wonder about. psychologists say the very same thing about other women who aren't fat that have that focus. its just my honest thought that comes up when i observe women who always want to tackle men who are immature,sexually/emotionally not sure of themselves or are sexually/emotionally unavailable in the physical sense and only care about the "cute" thing.

i think i'm speaking up and not down to anyone if i say what i'm really exploring in my mind. there is no need to sugar coat what i'm thinking among intelligent adults who are free to disagree. who says i'm speaking down to my sisters? what makes you think we haven't had these kinds of discussions amongst ourselves? you do know that we all aren't of one mind right? if you think we are then maybe you're the one who is talking down.

lookist behavior on both male and female parts need to be suspect since we all hopefully know we are more than only what we look like, or is that all you think we have to offer each other? fat women are just as capable of objectifying and trying to enrich their own self worth through an attractive man as men are through attractive women. it might be good for us to think of whether we are or not and decide if what we really have to do is do more work on ourselves. fat women are highly capable of self analysis and often do a lot of it. even here.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

mossystate said:


> And female ' fa's ' who prefer fat guys with baby faces and no chest hair?
> 
> Don't mind me...I am just throwing more rotted wood on the fire.



*tosses on fat girls who are shaved and wear ponytails just to be fair to FAs*


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i also think its good to think about why a woman (can't speak for guys) are always running after the "hot" little boys who look like a preteen dream who often look sexless or even effeminate. i know i often wonder is there something in women who are attracted to that for the same reason young girls are? do they feel desires they aren't really capable of fulfilling yet either? are they really afraid of men who are adult mature and fully sexual and require them to be fully sexual and wholey invested in their bodies? *is it simply just going after the thing that was missed out on in youth* that seemed untouchable? it might be worth examining if women are in their thirties and something about fully adult men still scares them.



I think you got it exactly right. Many fat women missed a lot of developmental milestones with regard to relationships. They didn't go through their boy toy phase and/or their bad boy phase in their teens or early twenties. When they discover the SA community they end up going through these phases 10-20 years late. Unfortunately this means these women end up rejecting the male members of their cohort.

This may seem harsh -- but from an male perspective its almost always much easier to date BBWs who had a social life when they were young.


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## The Orange Mage (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> I think you got it exactly right. Many fat women missed a lot of developmental milestones with regard to relationships. They didn't go through their boy toy phase and/or their bad boy phase in their teens or early twenties. When they discover the SA community they end up going through these phases 10-20 years late.



But the same goes for a lot of FAs, too, I believe. I know it's true for myself at the very least.


----------



## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> But the same goes for a lot of FAs, too, I believe. I know it's true for myself at the very least.



Yes, this is probably correct as well.


----------



## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

yeah, and its good to know that about yourself but to be okay with it instead of wondering why you might not be where your friends are who dated earlier are yet. its one less reason to go around beating ourselves up.


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## CarlaSixx (May 8, 2011)

I'm 22. And the majority of the men I find attractive seem effeminate. No one has judged me for it before. I've heard theories like looking for duality or shock value, but never that I've been called a "pedophile in the making" which seems to be wha you are suggesting.

Mind you, I have my own duality that I would like to find a match for, which could be why I like effeminate men. Though often these "effeminate" men are deep-voiced well-kept men. Not to mention I like my fair share of lumberjack-ish~motorcycle dudes, but I have an overall preference.

You may like your men extra hairy, always farting and grunting. For me, that's just not my style.


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## joswitch (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> I think you got it exactly right. Many fat women missed a lot of developmental milestones with regard to relationships. They didn't go through their boy toy phase and/or their bad boy phase in their teens or early twenties. When they discover the SA community they end up going through these phases 10-20 years late. Unfortunately this means these women end up rejecting the male members of their cohort.
> 
> This may seem harsh -- but from an male perspective its almost always much easier to date BBWs who had a social life when they were young.




I think both you and SuperO are over thinking this. Young lads in their early twenties are generally at the peak of their physical & hormonal prowess - and that's gotta be a powerfully attractive thing.

Young lads got shine and many ladies WANT.

That's all. No biggy.

I say this as a 40 year old dude...


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

joswitch said:


> I think both you and SuperO are over thinking this. Young lads in their early twenties are generally at the peak of their physical & hormonal prowess - and that's gotta be a powerfully attractive thing.
> 
> Young lads got shine and many ladies WANT.
> 
> ...



What you say is true.

However, ladies who had their fill of these young lads when they themselves were young are now the ladies who are looking for guys who can help pay the mortgage and raise the kids (as well has be a partner out of bed as well as in it).


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## CarlaSixx (May 8, 2011)

What about looking for someone who can pay mortgage, raise the kids, AND look spiffy while doing it? They exist. Some older women want that.

Some women want the guys who look like Sebastian Bach but with a better head on their shoulders. They exist. I know plenty. There are older men (like Tommy Lee) who like to keep their body looking young and prefer to be hairless. And women go nuts for them. I very highly doubt it has anything to do with feelings of pedophilia. So very very highly doubtful.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

CarlaSixx said:


> I'm 22. And the majority of the men I find attractive seem effeminate. No one has judged me for it before. I've heard theories like looking for duality or shock value, but never that I've been called a "pedophile in the making" which seems to be wha you are suggesting.
> 
> Mind you, I have my own duality that I would like to find a match for, which could be why I like effeminate men. Though often these "effeminate" men are deep-voiced well-kept men. Not to mention I like my fair share of lumberjack-ish~motorcycle dudes, but I have an overall preference.
> 
> You may like your men extra hairy, always farting and grunting. For me, that's just not my style.




thats not quite my style either. i never thought of a grown man as having to be extra hairy farting and grunting. i can especially do without the farting and grunting part no i wouldn't say a pedophile at all. thats not what i meant. from what i've read its like we are attracted as adults to other adults with the traits re: our attractions that we didn't get to act on when we were younger. because of fat prejudice in our case. people become older and get the courage to act out some of their attractions that they never could in a free way when they were younger for whatever reason. so we find other adults who have at least a few of those characteristics so we can finally act on and explore those attractions. i personally think its a way we make sure we don't skip necessary steps we all need to take to develop in a very healthy way when it comes to relationships we have later on. maybe we just all find ways to get through that stage for us so that we don't feel deprived of something.

there is a book out called "i think i love you" i think its by Allison Pierson about a woman's obsession with Keith Partridge and the Bay City Rollers when she was a young teenager. there has been a lot of talk around it about the psychological steps that young women have to go through as far as romantic love. i think that book made me think about this issue in terms of the BBW community and why i seem to see so many attracted to guys who have young boy characteristics. i'm not saying this really has anything to do with it but i think there might be some interesting connections there for some people who are just doing what comes naturally. i mean, is it really fair to expect people new to dating to act the same way as people who are more experienced and have the exact same kind of attractions for the same reasons. part of the attraction thing is due to experiences and each one changes those attractions somewhat.

then i also think there are women who go after Justin Bieber types longterm who are having sort of a weird midlife crisis just like 50 yr old men with 20 yr old girls who get all of their self worth from the age of their partner and always harp on that because it adds to their own self esteem and sense of a lack mortality. and then there are the people who are just finding people they love who happen to fall into that type. but they tend not to serially look for people of that particular type every time they are trying to find a partner. i don't know for sure if this is correct. its just something i wonder about.


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## supersoup (May 8, 2011)

As a fat woman that's always been fat, IN MY OPINION it's really offensive for an assumption to be made that I've missed out on developmental relationship milestones simply because I'm frigging huge. And yes, painting with a broad brush is offensive.

IN MY OPINION it's also incredibly offensive to think that just because I'm fat, I shouldn't be attracted to what I'm attracted to. No, I don't like fat men, and I'd actually *love* for my boyfriend to lose the little belly he's developed over the last two years. OH NO, GET THE LYNCH MOB.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

joswitch said:


> I think both you and SuperO are over thinking this. Young lads in their early twenties are generally at the peak of their physical & hormonal prowess - and that's gotta be a powerfully attractive thing.
> 
> Young lads got shine and many ladies WANT.
> 
> ...




physical hormonal prowess? there is no such thing if you don't know what to do with it. actually, older men tend to know how to last longer, if you want to get technical. very good sex comes from experience. most young men don't really have that much skill and often don't even know they lack it. neither do most of the young women they often date. that might be a part of the MILF thing. they are looking to be taught. not every older woman wants to play teacher to a man. emotional intelligence maybe underdeveloped for an older woman. a lack of worldly experience may be noticeably missing. there are lots of drawbacks in younger men. getting aroused isn't enough now that there is viagra. young guys generally shine more with people who don't have a whole lot of experience generally. think about it. how sexually adept were you really when you were a very young man?


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

supersoup said:


> As a fat woman that's always been fat, IN MY OPINION it's really offensive for an assumption to be made that I've missed out on developmental relationship milestones simply because I'm frigging huge. And yes, painting with a broad brush is offensive.
> 
> IN MY OPINION it's also incredibly offensive to think that just because I'm fat, I shouldn't be attracted to what I'm attracted to. No, I don't like fat men, and I'd actually *love* for my boyfriend to lose the little belly he's developed over the last two years. OH NO, GET THE LYNCH MOB.



i agree with that. i had little bfs in elementary school, dated since i was 16, went to my prom, dated lots in college, had a long termed relationship as long as any marriage. numerous bfs etc... over the years and recently, some serious some not. a lot of fat women have had a whole lot of development. but then there are those who have had difficulties because of geography, their mindset or the mindset of others. so we all don't have the same reality.

it would be hard for you to have missed many developmental milestones anyway. what are you? all of 25 or something? you seem right on task. i'm pretty sure your bf isn't 10 or 15 yrs old either.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> What you say is true.
> 
> However, ladies who had their fill of these young lads when they themselves were young are now the ladies who are looking for guys who can help pay the mortgage and raise the kids (as well has be a partner out of bed as well as in it).



this is going to be especially true of the BBWs who are in their 20s now and are dating at about the same pace as other 20 yr olds these days. a lot of them have an entirely different reality from a lot of women who are older than they are.


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## luscious_lulu (May 8, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> Trust me, if you see something, and you want it, you're worth it.



This is rep worthy, but I must spread rep around before I give you anymore. :kiss2:


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## Ample Pie (May 8, 2011)

I never went through a "bad boy" phase and never wanted to...

That is: funnily enough, we're all different. Even our, uh, sexual and relationship "milestones."


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## penguin (May 8, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> This is rep worthy, but I must spread rep around before I give you anymore. :kiss2:



I got him for you.



Ample Pie said:


> I never went through a "bad boy" phase and never wanted to...
> 
> That is: funnily enough, we're all different. Even our, uh, sexual and relationship "milestones."



I did when I was younger. Now I want someone on the same page as me, with the same goals, similar outlooks and likes, who wants to settle down. And that person can be the bad boy in the bedroom sometimes too, rawr.


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## luscious_lulu (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> I think you got it exactly right. Many fat women missed a lot of developmental milestones with regard to relationships. They didn't go through their boy toy phase and/or their bad boy phase in their teens or early twenties. When they discover the SA community they end up going through these phases 10-20 years late. Unfortunately this means these women end up rejecting the male members of their cohort.
> 
> This may seem harsh -- but from an male perspective its almost always much easier to date BBWs who had a social life when they were young.



Could you be more insulting? Could you make any more generalizations and put down fat women anymore?

Assuming because we are fat we didn't have highschool crushes or boyfriends. 

A preference is a preference. Just because I don't prefer BHM doesn't mean it's because I couldn't get a guy in my early years (I had a boyfriend in highschool and he was hot.) It means that I'm hard wired for a certain type, just like FA's are hard wired for a certian type. 

Occasionaly I will go off type and date a BHM, but my preference is tall and muscled.

Stop trying to push your issues onto BBW's. We are not obligated to find you attractive and we don't need to be thankful that a man, any man, is paying attention to us.


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

Donna said:


> This is a big steaming pile of horseshit built on a scientific platform. They might be out of your league, but not because of how you look.
> 
> I am not arguing that science hasn't shown that some cultures prefer symmetrical features and the like that are associated with "conventional" beauty. But to make the statement that people are somehow out of someone's league is not only insulting, it is patently FALSE. This is why some of the people who have posted in this thread are struggling with guilt over liking someone whom they have been convinced is "out of their league."
> 
> ...



Can you hear me clapping?! through the screen?! Because I am. All the way across the internet!


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## mszwebs (May 8, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> Could you be more insulting? Could you make any more generalizations and put down fat women anymore?
> 
> Assuming because we are fat we didn't have highschool crushes or boyfriends.
> 
> ...



HOLLER!

That is all.


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## Pitch (May 8, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> Could you be more insulting? Could you make any more generalizations and put down fat women anymore?
> 
> Assuming because we are fat we didn't have highschool crushes or boyfriends.
> 
> ...



Un Mein Gott. This so many times. _SO MANY TIMES._


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## supersoup (May 8, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i agree with that. i had little bfs in elementary school, dated since i was 16, went to my prom, dated lots in college, had a long termed relationship as long as any marriage. numerous bfs etc... over the years and recently, some serious some not. a lot of fat women have had a whole lot of development. but then there are those who have had difficulties because of geography, their mindset or the mindset of others. so we all don't have the same reality.
> 
> it would be hard for you to have missed many developmental milestones anyway. what are you? all of 25 or something? you seem right on task. i'm pretty sure your bf isn't 10 or 15 yrs old either.



I'm actually 28, and please, PLEASE, don't act like I'm not as far along some imaginary relationship scale as you are. No, we don't all have the same reality, which is why comments about 'fat women' in general missing these milestones is so offensive. No, my boyfriend isn't 10 or 15, but is it a problem if he's 19? Is that not ok?


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## joswitch (May 8, 2011)

supersoup said:


> As a fat woman that's always been fat, IN MY OPINION it's really offensive for an assumption to be made that I've missed out on developmental relationship milestones simply because I'm frigging huge. And yes, painting with a broad brush is offensive.
> 
> IN MY OPINION it's also incredibly offensive to think that just because I'm fat, I shouldn't be attracted to what I'm attracted to. No, I don't like fat men, and I'd actually *love* for my boyfriend to lose the little belly he's developed over the last two years. OH NO, GET THE LYNCH MOB.



Torches - check.
Pitchforks - check.
Angry mob.....
hmmm... tell them she skins puppies for a coat... Looootttts of puppies...
...
There we go!
Lynch mob is a GO!


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## Ernest Nagel (May 8, 2011)

It'd be nice if we were all a little less superficial but expecting that to start with BBW is just more discrimination, imo. I made that mistake once here on Dims and (deservedly) caught all kinds of hell for it. Honestly, the heart does want what the heart wants and no matter how much aesthetic prejudice someone has experienced that doesn't change. 

In any case it doesn't even improve your odds, so far as I can see? There are just as many BHM assholes as skinny ones; just as many smart, funny short dudes as tall ones. Who will like what is the crapshoot, so go with whatever floats your boat. Know what matters most to you but bottom line - NEVER SETTLE!


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## joswitch (May 8, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> physical hormonal prowess? there is no such thing if you don't know what to do with it.



Sex and orgasm. It's not rocket science. 



> actually, older men tend to know how to last longer, if you want to get technical. very good sex comes from experience. most young men don't really have that much skill and often don't even know they lack it. neither do most of the young women they often date. that might be a part of the MILF thing. they are looking to be taught. not every older woman wants to play teacher to a man. emotional intelligence maybe underdeveloped for an older woman. a lack of worldly experience may be noticeably missing. there are lots of drawbacks in younger men. getting aroused isn't enough now that there is viagra. young guys generally shine more with people who don't have a whole lot of experience generally. think about it. how sexually adept were you really when you were a very young man?



I love how you've missed the entire point.

We were talking about who people (BBWs) are attracted TO. 
Not the technical abilities of those people (they are attracted to) in bed.
Attraction tends to come FIRST. 

F'sure I've learned many, many things in my years  
Equally certain there was a time in my life when I was all kinds of catnip for chicks (at the time I didn't twig why exactly) and now I can see that shine (I used to have) in youthful lads now - and it totally makes sense, to me, why chicks turn towards that like flowers to the sunshine.

Open your eyes and see it going on all around you.

You're never going to switch women off from that.
And why the hell would you want to?

Take a lesson from King Canute, why don'tcha?


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## ashmamma84 (May 8, 2011)

I personally don't feel any guilt. Most of the people I've dated have been conventionally attractive though I feel that's a sort of loaded phrase anyway because given the internet and access/exposure to different kinds of looks what is beautiful isn't just so cut and dry anymore. 

The first woman I ever dated is tall, muscular, an MVP on Chicago's women football team and a tax attorney. By all accounts, she is a "tall drink of water". I think its pretty silly to seemingly place value judgments on where we all are on some arbitrary developmental/emotional scale. We're all getting along the best we know how at this particular moment in life and most importantly our tastes aren't or shouldn't be up for discussion simply because they're our own and incredibly personal. I don't want anyone telling me who I find attractive is somehow due to a delay or any other nonsense. 

There are women in their 50s who don't have much world knowledge and are clueless when it comes to dating - not because they haven't dated but because they choose to be that way. And there are 20 somethings like myself who've been in a longterm, loving relationship since forever, have an established home and are quite well adjusted. It works both ways, and a myriad of other ways too. I say all that to say, whether there are delays or not, people are going to (have to, more than likely) go through things with dating. We all do. 

I don't feel superior or more enlightened because I'm in a committed relationship and have dated since I was a kid. I think the best thing any of us can do is to lend advice when it's asked of us and lend an ear. Really that's all I've ever wanted when I was going through trials and tribulations being in the dating scene. What I didn't want was someone who was presumptuous talking at me, thinking he/she knew what was best because said person might have happened to be a decade or so older. 

PS - Last I checked there isn't a resident psychologist with a PhD in dating/sex so maybe lets stop acting like it.


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> Trust me, if you see something, and you want it, you're worth it.



You may be worth it in some metaphysical way -- but that doesn't mean you're going to get it. That's just how life is -- this applies to both girls and guys. Indeed there are few things more pathetic than guys who repeatedly try to pick-up girls who are clearly out of their league.

I'm thinking the Rolling Stones had it right when the sang:

_You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you might find
You get what you need_


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## Ernest Nagel (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> ...Indeed there are few things more pathetic than guys who repeatedly try to pick-up girls who are clearly out of their league...
> /I]



But because of the neocon-generated stigma attached to interspecies dating some of us would be left totally out in the cold if we were forced to keep to our own league.  I'm "retired" anyway but just sayin'.


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## Ample Pie (May 8, 2011)

supersoup said:


> I'm actually 28, and please, PLEASE, don't act like I'm not as far along some imaginary relationship scale as you are. No, we don't all have the same reality, which is why comments about 'fat women' in general missing these milestones is so offensive. No, my boyfriend isn't 10 or 15, but is it a problem if he's 19? Is that not ok?



With you 100% here, Ms. Soup.

Also, I'm 35 and my boyfriend will be 24 this year.

PS: I'm not suggesting no one should go through a "bad boy" stage, just that I never did and never wanted to--I've always wanted the good guy/gal. Our milestones are different.


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## CarlaSixx (May 8, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Sex and orgasm. It's not rocket science.



Well... not _technically_.... 

Sorry. I had to.


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

supersoup said:


> I'm actually 28, and please, PLEASE, don't act like I'm not as far along some imaginary relationship scale as you are. No, we don't all have the same reality, which is why comments about 'fat women' in general missing these milestones is so offensive. No, my boyfriend isn't 10 or 15, but is it a problem if he's 19? Is that not ok?



i don't know what the squabble is about. why are you asking me if its okay? its okay with you right?


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## superodalisque (May 8, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Sex and orgasm. It's not rocket science.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i'm not switching anything off. just saying that there are all kinds of reality depending on who you're talking to. its not the same for every woman.

as for the rocket science bit--sometimes you would think it was dear.


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## BBWTexan (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Yes, and don't think you have everything the other person wants. I'm not saying that people should feel the least bit guilty for liking a certain physical type [we all like to look at nice looking people (fat or thin)]. I'm just saying that a realistic assessment of one's romantic capital creates reasonable expectations and saves a lot of heartache.
> 
> When I was single I applied this rule to myself.




I certainly hope this isn't an attitude that you've shared with any of the romantic interests you've had in your life. I'm speaking only for myself here, but I'd never be in a relationship with someone who merely "settled" for me because I was "in his league." How freaking insulting can you get, really?

When it comes to settling down, I'll settle for nothing less than someone I think is the greatest thing ever and I expect him to feel the same. We're all entitled to that, no matter what we look like.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 8, 2011)

I find it quite amusing to read into some of the ideas presented in this thread. Such as the idea of women "missing out in their youth" and wanting to reclaim it. 
I didn't miss much myself....actually things tended to move too fast for me most of the time. Now, I find myself liking those younger men. 

I didn't search them out....just found myself in a Brave New World after being in a relationship for 16 years....and guess who was attracted to me. 

Never having been one to feel like I should ask permission to do adult things in my adulthood, I gave those younger fellows a go....and decided I like them. 

We can further armchair analyze this by saying those younger fellows are "chasing mommy"....though this one I'm with now seems to take his responsibilities towards me a helluva lot more serious than some of my exes "my own age" ever did. 

He's got some chest hair....I'm okay with some chest hair. I'm also okay if they don't have any. I'm okay with some pudge in the middle....I'm also okay with skinny (well usually ). 

I didn't know that meant there might be something wrong with me....or them for liking me back.

Sometimes, just taking things at face value works best......


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> You may be worth it in some metaphysical way -- but that doesn't mean you're going to get it. That's just how life is -- this applies to both girls and guys. Indeed there are few things more pathetic than guys who repeatedly try to pick-up girls who are clearly out of their league.
> 
> I'm thinking the Rolling Stones had it right when the sang:
> 
> ...



I'm having one problem with your posts BigMac. Your wife's avatar is of a very pretty woman. Her posts indicate that she loves you and puts up with you p)

So why are you saying stuff like this? Did you settle? Did she?


----------



## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

BBWTexan said:


> I certainly hope this isn't an attitude that you've shared with any of the romantic interests you've had in your life. I'm speaking only for myself here, but I'd never be in a relationship with someone who merely "settled" for me because I was "in his league." How freaking insulting can you get, really?
> 
> When it comes to settling down, I'll settle for nothing less than someone I think is the greatest thing ever and I expect him to feel the same. We're all entitled to that, no matter what we look like.



Actually Jeannette has read this thread.

If people are honest with themselves they'll see that when it comes to settling down most people simply make the best bargain possible. No one ever gets everything they want but most people eventually enter into an arrangement that works for them.

Finding a spouse is kind of like looking for a house to buy. There are lots of nice ones that aren't available. Many of the ones on the market are substandard. Many of the nice ones that are available are unfordable. Some are OK to rent but you wouldn't want to own them. But eventually after much searching most people find a home they can be happy with.

Dating's the same way. We've all met people who would be great but for the fact they're already attached. We've all met people who may be interested in us but whom don't meet our standards. Many of us have dated people we knew we'd never marry. When we meet someone who has the right combination of positive traits and negative traits we can live with we tie the knot.

Also, since you're both educated and very attractive you have the luxury of shopping the high end of the market. An advantage that many people don't have.


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## bigmac (May 8, 2011)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I'm having one problem with your posts BigMac. Your wife's avatar is of a very pretty woman. Her posts indicate that she loves you and puts up with you p)
> 
> So why are you saying stuff like this? Did you settle? Did she?



I'm very happy with the deal I made.

She probably had some second thoughts but I've got her tied down real good.


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## AuntHen (May 8, 2011)

bigmac said:


> You may be worth it in some metaphysical way -- but that doesn't mean you're going to get it. That's just how life is -- this applies to both girls and guys. Indeed there are few things more pathetic than guys who repeatedly try to pick-up girls who are clearly out of their league.
> 
> I'm thinking the Rolling Stones had it right when the sang:
> 
> ...




I think this thread is out of *your *league. 

Actually I am going to edit this and say bravo to all the "pathetic losers" who go after what they want! If nothing else those that are "out of their league" can't deny their perserverance right??!!

You not only insult "unattractive" people but you insult the "attractive" people as well.

Who are you to say who is out of anyone's league? Maybe hot tennis player multimillion dollar lawyer guy likes poor freckled country bumpkin farmer girl. You *never *know.


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## bigmac (May 9, 2011)

fat9276 said:


> Actually I am going to edit this and say bravo to all the "pathetic losers" who go after what they want! If nothing else those that are "out of their league" can't deny their perserverance right??!!



*Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.*


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## AuntHen (May 9, 2011)

bigmac said:


> *Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.*



success : the favourable outcome of something *attempted *

I fall down, I get back up, I fall down, I get back up...

There are people who have failed 200 times, only to succeed on the 201st time.


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## luscious_lulu (May 9, 2011)

bigmac said:


> *Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.*



The world would be a sad, uninspired place if people gave up on their dreams or decided that someone/thing was out of their league.


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## mszwebs (May 9, 2011)

Who is to define what my "league" is, anyway? Apparently bigmac's standard of beauty is THE standard?

I vote that we all submit pictures of ourselves and our prospective partners to bigmac before we attempt to date them.

That way, we'll have an accurate determination of the likelihood of success, as well as some psychoanalysis on why we're even bothering to try.


That way, we won't waste our time being Uppity Fatties and trying to date above our stations.

Phew! Such a time saver


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## Blackjack (May 9, 2011)

bigmac said:


> *Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.*



According to noted psychologist Alfred Einstein.


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## CastingPearls (May 9, 2011)

Um....<raises hand> Hi. I'm Lainey and I'm an Uppity Fatty. 

***there will be cake, right?***

EDT: Line forms in the rear.


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## penguin (May 9, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> EDT: Line forms in the rear.



in your rear or at it?


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## CastingPearls (May 9, 2011)

penguin said:


> in your rear or at it?


Depends on how long the line is.


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## penguin (May 9, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Depends on how long the line is.



I'll be there with cake.


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## bigmac (May 9, 2011)

fat9276 said:


> success : the favourable outcome of something *attempted *
> 
> I fall down, I get back up, I fall down, I get back up...
> 
> There are people who have failed 200 times, only to succeed on the 201st time.





luscious_lulu said:


> The world would be a sad, uninspired place if people gave up on their dreams or decided that someone/thing was out of their league.




If you suck at math you're not going to be an engineer;

If you can't write well you're not going to be a poet;

If you're 4'9" you're not going to be a basketball player;

and if you're the high school science geek you're not going to be dating the head cheerleader.

Doesn't mean you're not going to have a great life. But the chances for a great life decrease dramatically if you're not honest with yourself.


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## AuntHen (May 9, 2011)

bigmac said:


> If you suck at math you're not going to be an engineer;
> 
> If you can't write well you're not going to be a poet;
> 
> ...



a heart that loves can have another heart return their love. human relationships/attraction aren't calculations and are much more complex and deeper than your examples. 

sometimes the jock likes the geek and secretly knows she would be hot in a cheerleader outfit
sometimes the 4'9" dude kicks a** at basketball and can get the tall chick
sometimes just the effort of a poem (bad or not) can make another person swoon

it only decreases if you are a negative nelly who views everthing in this little box and never thinks outside of it. now THAT person, I really feel for.


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## AuntHen (May 9, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Um....<raises hand> Hi. I'm Lainey and I'm an Uppity Fatty.
> 
> ***there will be cake, right?***
> 
> EDT: Line forms in the rear.



Let's hear it for all the uppity fatties! Thank you Lainey. 


** you should make that your title


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## supersoup (May 9, 2011)

bigmac said:


> If you suck at math you're not going to be an engineer;
> 
> If you can't write well you're not going to be a poet;
> 
> ...



Really? Where is it written that any of these are law? In my graduating class, the kid that was the A/V geek, and always wore a fanny pack, is actually married to the star tennis player/cheerleader from our rival high school. SHOULD I LET THEM KNOW IT'S ALL A SHAM?!

Yet again, sweeping generalizations. 

LAME.


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## Diana_Prince245 (May 9, 2011)

Spud Webb and Muggsy Bogues laugh at whoever says short guys can't ball.


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## Pitch (May 9, 2011)

First off, not only do I know the guy as a nerd who dated the highschool cheerleader? But Bigmac, this thread is not about the "inability" to land people out of your league. Its about guilt. Because I land people supposedly "out of my league" EXCLUSIVELY. Don't get mad at others because you lack charisma or something.

Now, check this out.


Look at this guy out for me. (Posted with his express permission. Actually to be honest, it's his idea.)

http://i.imgur.com/MKk0A.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ht8xO.jpg

This hot piece of man meat calls me "Sexy brain lady" and has been in love with me for 3 years. We arent together, though he wants to be.

And now, check out little old me. The fatass. :








Yeah. In fact, all of my boyfriends (and girlfriends) have been either close to or embodied the male "beauty" standard. And look at me always hovering somewhere between 270 and 320.

*YEAH.

ME.*

Why? Because I rock my shit. And I'd ask you to one: stop insulting people by thinking they, like you, can't get what they want and must settle for whatever entitled fuck meanders their way and reflect on why you might be an FA and what this thread was meant to get across. Just guilt. Not inability. And for all your talk about people not being able to get other people I wonder if you're the type of FA that thinks the big girls are easy pickings or something. *Which is kind of fucked up.* And that's whether you're married or not.


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## CastingPearls (May 9, 2011)

PREACH.IT.SISTA .keep rocking that shit too


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## CarlaSixx (May 9, 2011)

I'm with you, Pitch.

I exclusively land the "conventional" hotties. Because I know what I want and I won't settle. Yeah, takes a long time, usually, to get it, but I'm not lowering my standards because someone else says I should. HELLLLLL NAW. 

If I want that hot, slim, tattooed rockstar looking type, bitch, I will get it. Probably not the first one I see, but there's plenty out there and one of them is gonna eventually be interested. Same goes for the "conventionally" hot nerds. If I want one, you bet your ass I'm gonna be with someone like that, because that's what I want and no other reason. Timeline doesn't matter. If you get what you were after, that's what counts. And bitch, with persistence, you can get whatever you want.

And I said PERSISTENCE... not STALKING.


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## bigmac (May 9, 2011)

Pitch said:


> First off, not only do I know the guy as a nerd who dated the highschool cheerleader? But Bigmac, this thread is not about the "inability" to land people out of your league. Its about guilt. Because I land people supposedly "out of my league" EXCLUSIVELY. Don't get mad at others because you lack charisma or something.



Got to say I don't really understand your guilt angle. I didn't get involved in this thread until people started to go down the everyone can get anything they want road.

If you landed a great guy I'm totally happy for you.

I'm quite happy with the deal I made as well. *If anyone's interested there's a photo of me and my wife on the "Has There Ever Been a FA/BBW Couple Pic Thread?" (post #113 on page 5).*




Pitch said:


> Why? Because I rock my shit. And I'd ask you to one: stop insulting people by thinking they, like you, can't get what they want and must settle for whatever entitled fuck meanders their way and reflect on why you might be an FA and what this thread was meant to get across. Just guilt. Not inability. And for all your talk about people not being able to get other people I wonder if you're the type of FA that thinks the big girls are easy pickings or something. *Which is kind of fucked up.* And that's whether you're married or not.



Its not my intent to insult anyone. However, I've said this before and I'll say it again -- we all settle -- no one ever gets exactly what they want. This isn't a bad thing -- its what adults do -- they make the best choices they can under the circumstances that present themselves.

Again I have no idea why you or anyone else would feel guilty for getting a good deal. Threads evolve and that was never an issue I addressed.

My premise is that people are happier if they're realistic. Here's a little story: when I first went to college I wanted to be a medical doctor. Unfortunately I didn't do so well in either vertebrate anatomy or microbiology. Seeing the writing on the wall (i.e. that I wouldn't likely get into med school) I decided to go to law school instead. You could say I settled -- however, I think I made a good choice given the circumstances. Relationships work the same way -- if you get what you want right of the bat great (count yourself very lucky) -- however, if you're like most of us you'll have to change or refocus your expectations over the years. People on this board seem to think this is settling. I prefer to call it growing up.


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## Pitch (May 9, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Got to say I don't really understand your guilt angle. I didn't get involved in this thread until people started to go down the everyone can get anything they want road.
> 
> If you landed a great guy I'm totally happy for you.
> 
> ...



See? You act like I have misunderstood you-- which I havent.

Not at all. You settled with life or love? Fine. Dont call people who havent immature in so many words. Because I always wanted to be an illustrator and never stopped wanting it.

Been published twice.

Always wanted to be a tattooing apprentice. Landed two apprenticeships and have to decide between them now based on their teaching style.

Wanted the hot guys and girls. Guess what: got them.

I have no intentions of refocusing anything because _*dedication*_ is the name of the game to getting what you want. I dont call abandonment of these things "growing up". I call it _giving_ up, maybe.

And I happen to be one of the realest people I know. 

There you have it.


----------



## Pitch (May 9, 2011)

CarlaSixx said:


> I'm with you, Pitch.
> 
> I exclusively land the "conventional" hotties. Because I know what I want and I won't settle. Yeah, takes a long time, usually, to get it, but I'm not lowering my standards because someone else says I should. HELLLLLL NAW.
> 
> ...



Exactly! It takes some time and one cant rush into things. But for me and you it still HAPPENS. Takes some elbow grease, patience and having a damned awesome personality. Thats for sure.

Also, hell yes for the tattooed hottie. -drool-


*Casting Pearls*: I like the Easter Egg you left me there! XD


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## bigmac (May 9, 2011)

Pitch said:


> I have no intentions of refocusing anything because _*dedication*_ is the name of the game to getting what you want. I dont call abandonment of these things "growing up". I call it _giving_ up, maybe.



If you succeed at everything you attempt you're not pushing yourself near hard enough. You can actually accomplish a lot more from hard fought failure than easy success. 

Also, while dedication is obviously very important its not a panacea -- every day all over the world incredibly dedicated people fail at all sorts of things. Some keep banging their heads against brick walls. Others analyse the situation and refocus -- that's not giving up in my book.


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## Ample Pie (May 9, 2011)

No one said you can always get whatever you want...

but no one is denied because the other person is out of their league, they're denied because the other person may not be into them for whatever reason--doesn't mean they're in different leagues. just that they have different tastes. 

As others have said, it does make me sad for your wife to know that you feel this way.


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## bigmac (May 9, 2011)

Ample Pie said:


> No one said you can always get whatever you want...
> 
> but no one is denied because the other person is out of their league, they're denied because the other person may not be into them for whatever reason--doesn't mean they're in different leagues. just that they have different tastes.
> 
> As others have said, it does make me sad for your wife to know that you feel this way.



My wife can take care of herself -- that's one of the things I love about her. Another is the fact she doesn't live in some romantic dreamworld.

News flash -- your second grade teacher lied to you -- we can't all grow up to be President.


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## Blackjack (May 10, 2011)

bigmac said:


> My wife can take care of herself -- that's one of the things I love about her. Another is the fact she doesn't live in some romantic dreamworld.
> 
> News flash -- your second grade teacher lied to you -- we can't all grow up to be President.



But you _can _grow up to be a misogynistic douchebag.

Live the dream, bigmac.


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## Diana_Prince245 (May 10, 2011)

I think it's sad when a girl's been on a message board for less than 24 hours and already thinks she's figured out who the resident meanie is.


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## CastingPearls (May 10, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> I think it's sad when a girl's been on a message board for less than 24 hours and already thinks she's figured out who the resident meanie is.


Stick around a little longer. There's a whole club.


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## Diana_Prince245 (May 10, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Stick around a little longer. There's a whole club.



I don't doubt that. Just thought it was sad it took so little time to figure out one of them. I haven't even read that many threads yet!


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## herin (May 10, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Why? Because I rock my shit. And I'd ask you to one: stop insulting people by thinking they, like you, can't get what they want and must settle for whatever entitled fuck meanders their way...



Pitch, you are my new hero. That is all. Kthxbai.


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## bigmac (May 10, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> I think it's sad when a girl's been on a message board for less than 24 hours and already thinks she's figured out who the resident meanie is.



When did being annoyed with irrational thought become associated with being a meanie.


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## Pitch (May 10, 2011)

bigmac said:


> If you succeed at everything you attempt you're not pushing yourself near hard enough. You can actually accomplish a lot more from hard fought failure than easy success.




Did...Did you just call success a failure? Because that is stupid. And fuck you for assuming I haven't busted my ass to get where I am. By the way.


Don't make an ass out of umption worse than you are already. Thanks in advance.

And I see that by by "irrational thought" you mean "Stuff that's making you butthurt."


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## luscious_lulu (May 10, 2011)

Valuing yourself is living in a dream world? Thinking we can do better and not giving up is being irrational? I'm glad I don't live in your world.

Just because we aim high doesn't mean we keep doing the same things over again. You can achieve your original goal, by adjusting your behavior/actions.


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## darlingzooloo (May 10, 2011)

Dear Pitch you are my new hero. :wubu:
Not just because I back what you are saying but also because it's wonderful to see another illustrator out there doing their thing and being successful at it! (Granted I'm still a student but in a year I will be out in the big world trying to make a living doing something I love.) 

Also, I'd just like to say coming from a girl who has only just started trying to date I refuse to settle for something that if I settle with it, I know I'll be unhappy in the long run. Picking out a boyfriend or girlfriend is not like picking out a soda at the vending machine, "Oh, they're out of ginger ale I guess it's sprite time!" :doh:

Another example is how yesterday I hung out with a boy I've been talking to for about two or three months for the first time in person, and though he was nice and defiantly friend material I felt absolutely nothing for him otherwise. If he were to randomly email me today and say we should date or something, I'd have to turn him down because of that, and he was attractive and 'out of my league' according to some, but since I didn't feel any emotional spark with him...I wouldn't want to pursue that path with him at all, in other words, settle because he'd be the first boy to ever ask me out. I believe that would be an awful thing for both of us.

Yes I have high standards (which I won't touch on here), yes I want there to be chemistry, and I don't see anything wrong with that as long as your standards are realistic ( i.e. saying you only date blue eyed tall girls with blonde hair and long legs is kinda ridiculous....unless of course you are Rod Stewart because he somehow finds them all.) XD


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## Pitch (May 10, 2011)

darlingzooloo said:


> Also, I'd just like to say coming from a girl who has only just started trying to date I refuse to settle for something that if I settle with it, I know I'll be unhappy in the long run. Picking out a boyfriend or girlfriend is not like picking out a soda at the vending machine, "Oh, they're out of ginger ale I guess it's sprite time!" :doh:



Oh my god, I love you.



> Another example is how yesterday I hung out with a boy I've been talking to for about two or three months for the first time in person, and though he was nice and defiantly friend material I felt absolutely nothing for him otherwise. If he were to randomly email me today and say we should date or something, I'd have to turn him down because of that, and he was attractive and 'out of my league' according to some, but since I didn't feel any emotional spark with him...I wouldn't want to pursue that path with him at all, in other words, settle because he'd be the first boy to ever ask me out. I believe that would be an awful thing for both of us.



Been through the exact same thing. I've turned a few tried and true "Hotties" for having no chemistry with them, or like my recent incursion with a guy we'll call Jason* being too narcissistic and argumentative (and also SMOKING HOT) leading to me not wanting to give him the time of day. And through it all a whole slew of thinner and supposedly "prettier" girls hating my stinking guts for having the attention of someone they very much wanted. I made a lot of enemies in that situation. XD Bottom line: yeah, aim high and have confidence to back it up and you can pretty much get what you shoot for most of the time.

-highfive-

*His real name. I just like asterisks.


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## HeavyDuty24 (May 12, 2011)

Pitch said:


> I hope this is the right place for this.
> 
> Firstly, let me say that I do -also- like BHM and BBW myself. Especially large "viking" style BHM with the blond beards and there's something about larger asian girls that gets the-- *wipes drool*. Sorry, sorry. Herp!
> 
> ...



i am attracted to women of all shapes,sizes,and colors,i just think women are beautiful in general,i wouldn't feel guilty,we all indeed like what we like.but i would much perfer a woman with meat on her bones,but if not that's ok too.i want someone i can click with more then anything,but if she has extra weight that is just icing on the cake.


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## HeavyDuty24 (May 12, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> Spud Webb and Muggsy Bogues laugh at whoever says short guys can't ball.



yeah,Spudd Webb laughed at that while he dunked on a 12 foot goal.LOL


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## darlingzooloo (May 12, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Oh my god, I love you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Orange Mage (May 12, 2011)

If FAs don't get a cookie for liking what they like, the why should BBWs get a quilt?


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## joswitch (May 12, 2011)

A quilt - made of cookies!


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## superodalisque (May 12, 2011)

Pitch said:


> Oh my god, I love you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this kind of stuff happens a whole lot. sometimes a lot of women don't understand that conventionally pretty can equal just plain old boring. think of what a lot of people fell pretty is: regular features, symetry etc... all extremly mundane and uninteresting when you think about it. keep rocking the original!


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## Dorktacular (May 12, 2011)

I agree to a certain extent. I'm not a fan of the "cookie cutter blonde". I need to see some characters and features that don't make me think I'm looking at a lifesize Barbie doll that has just been freshly unwrapped. 

I think beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. I've dated women literally from a size 0 all the way up to a size 28 and everything in between and I thought all of them were beautiful women. My wife is - by most conventional standards - considered to be very beautiful. As a result, I do occasionally feel awkward when I know people are thinking to themselves (or aloud) that my wife is way out of my league and that there has to be something very wrong with HER for being with me. I don't know if I feel embarrassment or anger or whatever-it-is, but I just don't like people making me feel that because my wife and I have two different body types that we couldn't possibly be into each other or love each other. That's stupid and shallow. We love each other and are attracted to each other, and that's all that matters to us.


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## Pitch (May 14, 2011)

Dorktacular said:


> I agree to a certain extent. I'm not a fan of the "cookie cutter blonde". I need to see some characters and features that don't make me think I'm looking at a lifesize Barbie doll that has just been freshly unwrapped.
> 
> I think beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. I've dated women literally from a size 0 all the way up to a size 28 and everything in between and I thought all of them were beautiful women. My wife is - by most conventional standards - considered to be very beautiful. As a result, I do occasionally feel awkward when I know people are thinking to themselves (or aloud) that my wife is way out of my league and that there has to be something very wrong with HER for being with me. I don't know if I feel embarrassment or anger or whatever-it-is, but I just don't like people making me feel that because my wife and I have two different body types that we couldn't possibly be into each other or love each other. That's stupid and shallow. We love each other and are attracted to each other, and that's all that matters to us.



-megaclaps-


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## 1love_emily (May 14, 2011)

I don't feel any guilt for liking people who are stereotypical hotties. I mean, if there's someone who likes me for my hot bod, then why can't I like someone for theirs?

My guy is a fit, tall, skinny guy


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## bigmac (May 14, 2011)

1love_emily said:


> I don't feel any guilt for liking people who are stereotypical hotties. I mean, if there's someone who likes me for my hot bod, then why can't I like someone for theirs?
> 
> My guy is a fit, tall, skinny guy




Excellent.

I really don't understand the guilt angle of this thread.

If you find a person you think is hot and he or she reciprocates life is good -- what's there to feel guilty about?


----------



## mszwebs (May 14, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Excellent.
> 
> I really don't understand the guilt angle of this thread.
> 
> If you find a person you think is hot and he or she reciprocates life is good -- what's there to feel guilty about?



...never mind...


----------



## BigBodyChevy (May 14, 2011)

Pitch, I can honestly say that yes, back in the day when I was in my late teens and early twenties I had those same feelings too. But as I gradually got older, my perception of myself changed a great deal. I'm 5ft. 4in. and 220 something lbs. and I think I'm the shyt!...and I'm round myself. lol With that said, since I think in my mind that I'm on Beyonce/Tyra status, it would only go to reason that I am not above approaching guys that are typical 'hot' as you say. And here's the kicker, they approach me too! ) 

Try not to think that way even though I know that sometimes it can be easier said than done. The bigger question is, are you attracted to you? Cuz you would be surprised at how many typical 'hot' guys like big women, trust me! )


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## PunkyGurly74 (May 15, 2011)

I am not sure I understand guilt - I mean I was raised catholic and by a catholic mom so trust me, I understand guilt - but, guilt for liking something pretty...hell no.

I have stood in front of paintings at the MET and the National Gallery of Art and I have been touched and moved, I get excited at cute or sexy pair of shoes. What is wrong with recognizing hotness/beauty in another person? Hell I almost walked right into my car the other day staring at a guy going into the grocery store...almost broke my neck, could not take my eyes off of him .....:: shivers:: HAWT


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## Zandoz (May 15, 2011)

I have no problem what gender(s) or physical type(s) anyone is attracted to...it's a 99.9% chance I'm not going to meet the qualifications anyway LOL. What I do have a problem with is when that freedom of guilt free choice is not a two way street. A lot of times over the years I've seen derogatory comments about guys who are admitted BBW admirers, but express open or implied appreciation for non-BBWs. In my case, yes I prefer BBWs in general (smaller, "regular", and SS), and I'm married to one...but I can also find women of all shapes and sizes attractive for various reasons. On more than one occasion over the years, I've been asked "If you like *that*, why are you here?" To me size acceptance means acceptance of ALL sizes.


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## luscious_lulu (May 15, 2011)

Zandoz said:


> To me size acceptance means acceptance of ALL sizes.



Agreed!
.........


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## LuckyDreamer87 (May 16, 2011)

littlefairywren said:


> I don't understand why we have to feel guilty for something that is beyond our control. We're all hardwired differently, and to fight it is pointless. Fat is not a state of mind...a lot of us here just happen to be fat, and our tastes are numerous. It's like saying all short people should fancy other short people because their short etc. If someone makes you happy, loves the air that you breathe, and it feels right for the both of you...then go with it.




What an amazingly accurate answer....i couldn't have said it better myself!


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## tonynyc (May 16, 2011)

1love_emily said:


> I don't feel any guilt for liking people who are stereotypical hotties. I mean, if there's someone who likes me for my hot bod, then why can't I like someone for theirs?
> 
> My guy is a fit, tall, skinny guy





bigmac said:


> Excellent.
> 
> I really don't understand the guilt angle of this thread.
> 
> If you find a person you think is hot and he or she reciprocates life is good -- what's there to feel guilty about?



*A*bsolutely... screw guilt - go after what pleases you in life - it will make you happier in the long run


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## PhiloGirl (May 24, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Excellent.
> 
> I really don't understand the guilt angle of this thread.
> 
> If you find a person you think is hot and he or she reciprocates life is good -- what's there to feel guilty about?



I know I'm jumping in on this kind of late, but... speaking for myself, I think the guilt (perhaps more accurately termed discomfort / embarrassment) comes from the concept of there being "leagues". The fat girl in high school just isn't going to get the quarterback, right? So if I go back to my state of mind in that time and place when I liked someone "out of my league" - I felt mortified. I felt unworthy. Because there were leagues, and everyone who looked like or had similar interests to that football hero were out of my league. To think that I even had a shot was to elevate my fat ass way above my social standing - how dare I. Many people are made to feel foolish if they fail, yet try again. They are made to feel that the reason for the failure is an inadequacy within themselves, rather than just... circumstance. Weren't you the one who said (I'm paraphrasing) doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is insanity? Does this mean that you think a fat woman who is attracted to muscular men should stop pursuing all muscular men if she's turned down by them... three times? If you fail, try, try again, but then give up or else you're nuts?

You stated "...and he or she reciprocates...": a lot of people won't even take a shot because they are scared off by this whole concept of ranking a person's worth on their looks - or perhaps their interests, as we seem to be using high school cliques as examples. Geeks rank lower than stoners, who rank lower than cheerleaders... is that right? Geeks can date band members, because although they are of two separate species, cross-breeding is possible. Come on. Do you really believe in this whole "leagues" thing? Could it be that we've all misunderstood, and you're really talking about compatibility across different personality types, lower probability of finding a match if one has so many restrictions, etc.? I have hope. And for the record, I am also hopeful that when women here are talking about "I want this / like this and won't settle for anything less", they don't mean "I like conventionally hot guys and I won't 'settle' for someone 'less attractive' than my 'high standards'." I wouldn't expect a woman who was single and wishing for a partner to suddenly say "Well, guess I should just take the next person who's interested in me, regardless of whether I'm attracted to them", but I also hope this theoretical woman wouldn't say about a potentially fantastic match "He's 30 pounds heavier than I like 'em... next!"


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## Wren (May 25, 2011)

The way I see it, Fat Acceptance as it pertains to physical attraction is about accepting everyone's physical preferences without ridiculing them. I don't think it means that fat people should only date fat people. I think what it means is that all combinations of thin and fat people should be be free to date without persecution. So you can have thins and thins, thins and fats, fats and thins, fats and fats, and nobody should have a problem with any of those combinations because if two people are mutually attracted to each other then other people's opinions about what is beautiful shouldn't matter.

The only reason I believe anyone might be justified in feeling guilty about this sort of thing is if you feel your standards of physical beauty are too strict, and that you're passing up good relationships on looks alone. You can take other people's advice into consideration about such things, but it's ultimately up to you to figure out what's really important to you.

Or if you subscribe to the "looks shouldn't matter at all" philosophy I can understand why you might feel guilty, but I think that philosophy too is a personal choice and not something that should be expected of everyone. Even when you ignore looks, there are plenty of other things about a person you can find unattractive that could be considered just as unreasonable or shallow in the opinion of others. So I think the "looks shouldn't matter" philosophy is not a cure-all for all physical bias. When we see plus size models are they there because "looks shouldn't matter?" No, they are there because fat is beautiful to some people, just like thin is, and there is no sense in suppressing that reality as the entertainment industry has historically done.


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## squish (May 25, 2011)

Interesting thread. A lot of you are making awesome points about how fat women should not be afraid to go after the people they are attracted to without guilt or fear, and I totally agree with that. However, I think Big Mac kinda has a point in a limited way. It _can be_ harder to find a hottie who is into you if you are fat. Some fat women _do_ miss out on dating in their youth, because the people who find them attractive are not prepared to admit that and would rather date women that fit a more 'conventional' model of beauty. Sweeping generalisations are always silly -- of course these things are not true for everyone, and perhaps they are not even true for most fat women. But they are certainly true for some fat women and I don't see anything liberating in pretending that is not the case. 

Personally, I have got the hot guy (I'm into men) at times, and I have also had long fallow periods where I just did not meet anyone who was into me or my body. I would say on the whole it is easier for my thin friends to get dates than it is for me to get dates. This isn't to say that I'm not attractive -- I often am, even to so-called "normal" men -- just that I am fishing in a smaller pool. I would prefer this to be acknowledged. And to be fair most people in the thread have acknowledged this, but I think some people have not.


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## Shosh (May 25, 2011)

I don't think you should feel bad or guilty about being attracted to what you are attracted to.
I as a BBW am attracted to thin men. I did think for a while that maybe that was wrong or it was a double standard because I myself am fat, but then I realized that loving thin men and being attracted to them is just my personal preference, just as an FA prefers a fat woman.


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## Diana_Prince245 (May 25, 2011)

Shosh said:


> I don't think you should feel bad or guilty about being attracted to what you are attracted to.
> I as a BBW am attracted to thin men. I did think for a while that maybe that was wrong or it was a double standard because I myself am fat, but then I realized that loving thin men and being attracted to them is just my personal preference, just as an FA prefers a fat woman.



This is so true. And just because I'm more attracted to skinny guys doesn't mean those are the only men I go out with. I might be more likely to date them, but we're not in an exclusive relationship.


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## bigmac (May 25, 2011)

PhiloGirl said:


> I know I'm jumping in on this kind of late, but... speaking for myself, I think the guilt (perhaps more accurately termed discomfort / embarrassment) comes from the concept of there being "leagues". The fat girl in high school just isn't going to get the quarterback, right? So if I go back to my state of mind in that time and place when I liked someone "out of my league" - I felt mortified. I felt unworthy. Because there were leagues, and everyone who looked like or had similar interests to that football hero were out of my league. To think that I even had a shot was to elevate my fat ass way above my social standing - how dare I. Many people are made to feel foolish if they fail, yet try again. They are made to feel that the reason for the failure is an inadequacy within themselves, rather than just... circumstance. Weren't you the one who said (I'm paraphrasing) doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is insanity? Does this mean that you think a fat woman who is attracted to muscular men should stop pursuing all muscular men if she's turned down by them... three times? If you fail, try, try again, but then give up or else you're nuts?
> 
> You stated "...and he or she reciprocates...": a lot of people won't even take a shot because they are scared off by this whole concept of ranking a person's worth on their looks - or perhaps their interests, as we seem to be using high school cliques as examples. Geeks rank lower than stoners, who rank lower than cheerleaders... is that right? Geeks can date band members, because although they are of two separate species, cross-breeding is possible. Come on. Do you really believe in this whole "leagues" thing? Could it be that we've all misunderstood, and you're really talking about compatibility across different personality types, lower probability of finding a match if one has so many restrictions, etc.? I have hope. And for the record, I am also hopeful that when women here are talking about "I want this / like this and won't settle for anything less", they don't mean "I like conventionally hot guys and I won't 'settle' for someone 'less attractive' than my 'high standards'." I wouldn't expect a woman who was single and wishing for a partner to suddenly say "Well, guess I should just take the next person who's interested in me, regardless of whether I'm attracted to them", but I also hope this theoretical woman wouldn't say about a potentially fantastic match "He's 30 pounds heavier than I like 'em... next!"




My basic point -- which seems to upset many people -- is that people should be realistic with regards to what they bring to the table. And this isn't really a weight thing or totally a looks thing either. Irrational thinking is a pet peeve -- so when people started saying anyone can get the type of guy (or girl) they want I called Shenanigans.

The rich ladies shopping on Rodeo Drive are not about to marry the pool boy (they may have a fling with him -- but nothing serious). The pool boy doesn't bring the right set of attributes to the table no matter how handsome he is. People may have short-term relationships with people who don't fit the bill for long-term partnership but in the end people tend to settle down with people of roughly equal caliber.

Example (I'm going to look like a jerk but here goes); when I was single I didn't consider anyone without a 4 year college degree and an established career suitable for a long term commitment. On several occasions I had women who didn't meet these requirements reply to my online adds. Since I didn't want to be that rigid we'd go for dinner and they'd try and convince me that they were as smart and as worldly as the women I was targeting. Most fell totally flat -- they weren't being realistic about their attributes.

Likewise; if I'm had tried to land one of the above Rodeo Drive ladies or a California beach bunny I would have fell flat -- I wouldn't have been being realistic.

People have to align what they bring to the table with what they want. Thats all.


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## Blackjack (May 25, 2011)

bigmac said:


> I'm going to look like a jerk



I fail to understand why you would even write this. I don't think that I've seen you use this disclaimer before when you spout worse bullshit.


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## PhiloGirl (May 25, 2011)

bigmac said:


> but in the end people tend to settle down with people of roughly equal caliber.



I suppose what you think of as caliber, I think of as different personalities and values. Not necessarily better or worse, just more similar and therefore more compatible. It's when you start deciding that the way a person lives their life should be judged on a sliding scale of "caliber"...

If one of your standards for a partner is someone who has a Bachelor's degree or higher, I don't judge you for it. That's your choice, and I assume your personality, values, and interests "call for" a person with that background - especially if you have given other women a chance but did not have enough in common with them. But if you were to decide that a woman who did not have that background was somehow less than you, or below you on some dating heirarchy, that's sad. It's also sad that you think (if you were single) that you couldn't be with some woman from Rodeo Drive. A person's education and/or income level do not constitute the whole of their being.


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## mossystate (May 25, 2011)

As someone who is not a Rodeo Drive anything, and doesn't have a 4 year degree...I am quite sure I would have been " smart and wordly enough " to pass you right on by, if you had managed a sentence like this -

" Likewise; if I'm had tried to land one of the above Rodeo Drive ladies or a California beach bunny I would have fell flat -- I wouldn't have been being realistic. "


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## bigmac (May 26, 2011)

PhiloGirl said:


> I suppose what you think of as caliber, I think of as different personalities and values. Not necessarily better or worse, just more similar and therefore more compatible. It's when you start deciding that the way a person lives their life should be judged on a sliding scale of "caliber"...
> 
> If one of your standards for a partner is someone who has a Bachelor's degree or higher, I don't judge you for it. That's your choice, and I assume your personality, values, and interests "call for" a person with that background - especially if you have given other women a chance but did not have enough in common with them. But if you were to decide that a woman who did not have that background was somehow less than you, or below you on some dating heirarchy, that's sad. It's also sad that you think (if you were single) that you couldn't be with some woman from Rodeo Drive. A person's education and/or income level do not constitute the whole of their being.



Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that practical considerations play a big role in who marries who. Love doesn't conquer all -- everyone knows this but few will admit it.

For most people today two substantial incomes are essential for a middle class life. Therefore, people pair off with the most successful people possible. This usually results in people pairing off with others of very similar socioeconomic standing. Like the animals on nature shows we all strive to attract the best mate possible. Nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty for -- its just the way of the world.

Also, this has nothing to do with looking down on other people. Its just about closing the best deal you can.


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## Blackjack (May 26, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that practical considerations play a big role in who marries who. Love doesn't conquer all -- everyone knows this but few will admit it.
> 
> For most people today two substantial incomes are essential for a middle class life. Therefore, people pair off with the most successful people possible. This usually results in people pairing off with others of very similar socioeconomic standing. Like the animals on nature shows we all strive to attract the best mate possible. Nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty for -- its just the way of the world.



There's a difference between refusing to acknowledge the big role that practical stuff can play and considering your argument absurd because of your insistence that it is apparently the _only _thing that one should consider.


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## LovelyLiz (May 26, 2011)

bigmac said:


> *snipped* Also, this has nothing to do with looking down on other people. Its just about closing the best deal you can.



I am so glad that this is not my view of love and relationships. It seems cold and calculating and capitalistic.

Were income and earning power really at the top of your mind when you were dating and thinking about love and potential partners? Certainly these practical issues need to be worked out in the context of a relationship...but in terms of finding the right person for me, it's really been at the bottom of the list.

Fundamentally I think these are just very different approaches to love - your approach seems practical and equation-based, and for me it's more of a beautiful and surprising mystery. And as fat people, who (I agree with squish) usually do have at least a somewhat smaller dating pool, I think being open to the mysteriousness of the way love can work is a really good thing, so we don't close ourselves off to anyone we think is "above our level" simply because we look at them and think we are being "realistic."


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## bigmac (May 26, 2011)

mcbeth said:


> I am so glad that this is not my view of love and relationships. It seems cold and calculating and capitalistic.
> 
> Were income and earning power really at the top of your mind when you were dating and thinking about love and potential partners? Certainly these practical issues need to be worked out in the context of a relationship...but in terms of finding the right person for me, it's really been at the bottom of the list.
> 
> Fundamentally I think these are just very different approaches to love - your approach seems practical and equation-based, and for me it's more of a beautiful and surprising mystery. ...




No -- income, earning power, and education were never on my mind when I met someone for a first date. However, if the relationship was to move to a higher level these issues certainly come into play. Yes it is a bit cold and capitalistic. Unfortunately this country, while it talks about the importance of family, makes it exceedingly hard to raise a family (much harder than in other developed countries). If you want to start and raise a family you damn well better be concerned about what potential partners bring to the table in terms of resources and abilities.

Ironically many people who marry for love divorce because of money. Arguments over money are the number one cause of divorce. So if you want to maximize the probability that your family will be remain intact to provide a stable environment for your children you must consider unromantic practical matters before getting serious. (The most stable marriages are those between two college educated professionals.)

Waiting till after you're in a committed relationship to "workout" practical issues is a recipe for disaster (if he or she never saw fit to get an education or pursue a career before the relationship why would you think he or she would start now). If you ignore practical matters you will likely be in for a surprise but I doubt it will be beautiful.

Of course if you're young and just dating casually the foregoing doesn't really apply. Just be warned that casual relationships can transform into serious ones very quietly.


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## AuntHen (May 26, 2011)

bigmac said:


> No -- income, earning power, and education were never on my mind when I met someone for a first date. However, if the relationship was to move to a higher level these issues certainly come into play. Yes it is a bit cold and capitalistic. Unfortunately this country, while it talks about the importance of family, makes it exceedingly hard to raise a family (much harder than in other developed countries). If you want to start and raise a family you damn well better be concerned about what potential partners bring to the table in terms of resources and abilities.
> 
> Ironically many people who marry for love divorce because of money. Arguments over money are the number one cause of divorce. So if you want to maximize the probability that your family will be remain intact to provide a stable environment for your children you must consider unromantic practical matters before getting serious. (The most stable marriages are those between two college educated professionals.)
> 
> ...





...........................................


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## luscious_lulu (May 28, 2011)

I had a friend who would even have friends who didn't go to university. I was the exception. I have what is the equivellent of the usa community college diploma.

We didn't remain friends. It wasn't because I was less intelligent (I am quite bright & had a higher IQ than her.) Or because I didnt have a decent job (i do.) It was because she was a snob. She judged people based on superficial bullshit before she got to know them. 

It was an ugly trait & it made me uncomfortable. It's kind of how I feel about the bullshit being spouted in this thread. 

Sometimes when you go into a situation expecting something, that's all you find. If you go into it with an open mind & a non-judgemental attitude, you'd be amazed at what you truly can find.


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## bigmac (May 28, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> I had a friend who would even have friends who didn't go to university. I was the exception. I have what is the equivellent of the usa community college diploma.
> 
> We didn't remain friends. It wasn't because I was less intelligent (I am quite bright & had a higher IQ than her.) Or because I didnt have a decent job (i do.) It was because she was a snob. She judged people based on superficial bullshit before she got to know them.
> 
> ...



Earlier in this thread you were in the *everyone can get exactly what they want* camp. However, if someone actually goes out and systematically and rationally searches for what they want you'll imply they're a snob. *You can't have it both ways.*

Also, when did education and career success become "superficial bullshit." In addition to the financial resources, people who have a track record of being able to stick it out through four or more years of college and then through several more years getting a career started have demonstrated that they have the capacity to go after longterm goals and are not going to quit or freak out the first time things get a bit rough. I don't know about you but when I was looking I looked for a person who had the capacity and intelligence to contribute to the relationship.


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## mossystate (May 28, 2011)

bigmac said:


> I don't know about you but when I was looking I looked for a person who had the capacity and intelligence to contribute to the relationship.



My brother is getting married tomorrow ( it's in CA and I can't make it ). It is his second marriage. I hope his new wife knows that she is with a stupid man who doesn't have the capacity and intelligence to contribute to a relationship. I am not sure he went to college for 4 years. That he has been a newspaper publisher for years...pfft.

But I guess it was his first wife of many years who really dodged a bullet.

Whatever you wanted in your relationship is your business...but enough with the bullshit of painting the picture that anybody who hasn't gone through at least four years of college, is not capable and intelligent. You show a lot of ignorance. Must have missed a few classes.


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## bigmac (May 28, 2011)

mossystate said:


> My brother is getting married tomorrow ( it's in CA and I can't make it ). It is his second marriage. I hope his new wife knows that she is with a stupid man who doesn't have the capacity and intelligence to contribute to a relationship. I am not sure he went to college for 4 years. That he has been a newspaper publisher for years...pfft.
> 
> But I guess it was his first wife of many years who really dodged a bullet.
> 
> Whatever you wanted in your relationship is your business...but enough with the bullshit of painting the picture that anybody who hasn't gone through at least four years of college, is not capable and intelligent. You show a lot of ignorance. Must have missed a few classes.



There's a difference between steadfast rules and guidelines. No rational person going to let lack of a few credits exclude an otherwise qualified candidate (love doesn't have an HR department). Indeed my own wife was a few credits short of her BA when we married (like your brother she had years of professional success). Likewise, only an idiot would dismiss a 4th year med student just because he/she wasn't established in his/her field yet.

However, if you're looking for bulging biceps and washboard abs it probably a good idea to start looking at the local gym. Likewise, if you're looking for a smart educated spouse checking behind ivy walls and in ivory towers seems like a good first step in one's search.


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## luscious_lulu (May 28, 2011)

I still am in the get what you want camp. What I was taking offense to was my ex-friend's ability to see beyond other peoples education level. The number of times I saw her dismiss someone'S opinion based on the fact the didnt have a university degree was staggering and not based on anything other than their education level. She truly was/is a snob.

There are a lot of people who don't have a university degree, but still Can have long term goals & not run at the first sign of trouble. Education doesn't equal good character. 

I don't have an issue with People getting the traits they want. I could say you are contradicting yourself by your insistence on an education and employment level. It'd be useless. We have divergent views of the world and nothing either if us say will change that.


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## mossystate (May 28, 2011)

bigmac said:


> There's a difference between steadfast rules and guidelines. No rational person going to let lack of a few credits exclude an otherwise qualified candidate (love doesn't have an HR department). Indeed my own wife was a few credits short of her BA when we married (like your brother she had years of professional success). Likewise, only an idiot would dismiss a 4th year med student just because he/she wasn't established in his/her field yet.
> 
> However, if you're looking for bulging biceps and washboard abs it probably a good idea to start looking at the local gym. Likewise, if you're looking for a smart educated spouse checking behind ivy walls and in ivory towers seems like a good first step in one's search.



And what if I were to say that my brother had maybe never gone to college? I am not sure he did...at all. His first wife ( before those years of ' success ' ) must have wanted a moron, and that's what she got ? You are still moving waaaay past just your very personal checklist.


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## tonynyc (May 28, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Earlier in this thread you were in the *everyone can get exactly what they want* camp. However, if someone actually goes out and systematically and rationally searches for what they want you'll imply they're a snob. *You can't have it both ways.*
> 
> Also, when did education and career success become "superficial bullshit." In addition to the financial resources, people who have a track record of being able to stick it out through four or more years of college and then through several more years getting a career started have demonstrated that they have the capacity to go after longterm goals and are not going to quit or freak out the first time things get a bit rough. I don't know about you but when I was looking I looked for a person who had the capacity and intelligence to contribute to the relationship.



Bill Gates.. Rachel Ray... Jennifer Lopez... Arnold Schwarzenneger never finished college - though Arnold has had more than his share of troubles these days....

And who is to say that anyone is a "snob" for seeking what they want... you like what you like


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## bigmac (May 28, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> Bill Gates.. Rachel Ray... Jennifer Lopez... Arnold Schwarzenneger never finished college - though Arnold has had more than his share of troubles these days....
> 
> And who is to say that anyone is a "snob" for seeking what they want... you like what you like




There are always exceptions to every rule. Both Gates and Arnold were extrememly driven people. 

As a high school student Gates used to sneek out of his house in the middle of the night and go over to the University of Washington were he sort of had permission to use a main frame. This type of drive is at the far end of the bell curve (i.e. very rare).

Arnold, likewise, was a very driven person -- someone who had to win no matter the cost. I read his autobiography about 30 years ago and seem to remember him claiming to have an MBA (or some sort of business degree).

There's no search term that allows you to locate outliers like Bill Gates in todays internet dating world. The best proxies you can use are the education and career parameters.


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## bigmac (May 28, 2011)

Remember set theory from junior high math class?

1) Let a large circle represent the general population.

2) Let a smaller circle within the larger represent the percentage of the population that is smart (use any definition you like).

3) Let a second small circle represent the percentage of the population with a college degree (also within the largest and overlapping in part the small circle representing smart people).

We'll see that a large percentage of smart people are simultaniously members of all three sets. That is they are members of the general populations and also members of both the college degree subset and the smart people subset.

Ofcourse there will be smart people who are not part of the college degree set -- and dumb people who are members of the college degree set (the two small circles will not over lap prefectly).

Although the correlation is not perfect, the fact that many smart people are also college graduates allows us to use college graduation as a proxy measurement for intelligence. In many cases we'll have acess to a person's college history but not his or her Stanford-Binet score. Online dating is such a case. So if we have to make a descision regarding who to pursue (and no one has the time or resources to pursue all possibilities) using education as a proxy for smarts makes sense.


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## CleverBomb (May 28, 2011)

bigmac said:


> So if we have to make a descision regarding who to pursue (and no one has the time or resources to pursue all possibilities) using education as a proxy for smarts makes sense.



Understandable, and valid. 
But never forget that it's a proxy for what you seek, and not necessarily that which you seek itself. 

It's also a proxy for a few other things, including access to financial resources.

-Rusty


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