# body positivity versus reality



## waldo (Sep 21, 2017)

[FONT=&quot]Most of you are probably well aware of the current movement around 'body positivity' in which plus-sized/fat women are referred to as 'curvy' and the argument is that all women should ideally be viewed as attractive/sexy (unless you are an under-evolved neanderthal). So I have been stewing over this topic for a while, and now I have been forwarded a textbook example that illustrates the issue, which I decided to share here.

In the attached link is an article about a young engaged couple who did a risque photo-shoot that went viral. The lady is a substantial woman of maybe size 16-18, while the guy is attractive and very chiseled.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/couples-boudoir-body-image_us_59c19125e4b0f22c4a8d669d?utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&utm_source=gn_fb&utm_medium=facebook&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000023

from the article:

"The viral shoot also gave Stephanie, who got engaged to Arryn in February, an opportunity to spread an important message about body positivity &#8213; something she struggled with growing up as a curvaceous woman. “I remember being in junior high and looking at myself in the mirror, wondering why my stomach wasn’t the way it was &#8216;supposed’ to be,” she told HuffPost. “Over the years, I’ve come to accept that I am always going to be considered plus-size. I push myself out of my comfort zone by wearing clothes that I love but aren’t in society’s mold of what is acceptable for bigger women, like crop tops, tight shirts, shorter dresses and shorts. I walk around with my head high, smiling, and show no shame in myself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And while Stephanie has been on a body positivity journey of her own, Arryn’s unwavering love and support has only bolstered her self-esteem. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Throughout our relationship, there has never been a time when he made me feel self-conscious about any part of myself. To him, it doesn’t matter if I have not washed my hair for a week or shaved my legs in over a month,” she told HuffPost. “He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look, that I’m beautiful regardless.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So he DOES NOT CARE how she looks !? Who the fuck actually believes this crap?![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
There are 4 possibilities that I have come up with:

1: he has not admitted to/discussed with her that he prefers larger (aka fat) women - i.e. he is a stealth FA
2: the couple did not want to discuss with the reporter this sensitive topic regarding his preference for a larger woman and just decided to pass it off as him being such a wonderful, accepting dude
3: the guy actually does not have a strong size preference (rare as hen's teeth) OR overcame his preference to be with this gal due to other reasons (maybe just really bonds with her emotionally)
4: the 'journalist' did not include/address this aspect of the relationship properly because it would not support the modern feminist agenda that all women are beautiful and sexy to a 'properly socialized' male

My money would be on option 4. I think there is a twisted agenda out there to push this unrealistic idea: "*He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look*"
This gobbledygook needs to be countered by sound argument. FACT: men are driven by their visual attraction to the female form. FACT: not all men prefer the same thing. FACT: there is someone for (damn near) everyone. Anything else is fairytale nonsense or wishful thinking.

The door is being opened a bit, but we need to somehow get there and kick it open all the way. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not so much a matter of fat acceptance but rather a matter of FA acceptance. Once FAs are accepted by society as legit, fat people will be correspondingly accepted as well. We have had it backwards all this time. Then again, I could just be off my rocker [/FONT]


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## loopytheone (Sep 21, 2017)

waldo said:


> Throughout our relationship, there has never been a time when he made me feel self-conscious about any part of myself. To him, it doesnt matter if I have not washed my hair for a week or shaved my legs in over a month, she told HuffPost. He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesnt care how I look, that Im beautiful regardless.
> 
> So he DOES NOT CARE how she looks !? Who the fuck actually believes this crap?!
> 
> ...



It seems to me that you are misinterpreting what they are saying. What she is (trying) to say is that regardless of what society views as attractive, he finds her beautiful/attractive. Even when she is hairy, dirty and fat, he is still attracted to her. That she doesn't have to look her 'best' all the time to be attractive to him; and there is a lot of pressure on fat women (and women in general) to always be feminine/presentable/fashionable in order to be attractive. 

Also, you're wrong about it being 'rare as hen's teeth' not to have a strong size preference. Just look around the boards outside of the FA board and you will see that. Most people have a wide range of what they find super-attractive and an even wider range that they find cute/hot. The importance of size in determining attractiveness also varies between people; for some people it is the most important factor in whether or not they find somebody attractive and for other people it is just a mild preference. The world is _full_ of variety when it comes to people and you are doing yourself a huge disservice in assuming everybody is the same as you. 

You are definitely misinterpreting body positivity if you think that is what it is trying to push. The fact is that body positivity has very little to do with whether or not men/women etc find the person attractive. Nobody is saying that you have to find a certain person attractive, just that there should be an acceptance of different body types. A social acceptance, not a sexual one. The difference being that fat women want to be able to show our bodies without being abused; we aren't trying to say that everybody should be sexually attracted to us. It's two very different things.



waldo said:


> My money would be on option 4. I think there is a twisted agenda out there to push this unrealistic idea: "*He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesnt care how I look*"
> This gobbledygook needs to be countered by sound argument. FACT: men are driven by their visual attraction to the female form. FACT: not all men prefer the same thing. FACT: there is someone for (damn near) everyone. Anything else is fairytale nonsense or wishful thinking.



I actually agree with the three things you referred to as facts (though they aren't facts, they are opinion/interpretations). However, again, I think you are misinterpreting what the people in the article are trying to say. Nobody is trying to disagree with those things. The two people in the article are a couple in a long term relationship, where things such as emotional love and social compatibility have higher importance than appearance; there are a lot of guys that wouldn't find a hairy, dirty girl attractive if they met her for the first time but it is inevitable that you will see your long term partner that way at some point and still find her attractive because you _love her_. That is the point of the article. 



waldo said:


> The door is being opened a bit, but we need to somehow get there and kick it open all the way. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not so much a matter of fat acceptance but rather a matter of FA acceptance. Once FAs are accepted by society as legit, fat people will be correspondingly accepted as well. We have had it backwards all this time. Then again, I could just be off my rocker



Right, okay, I let this go in the FA board without comment but this is an issue that really needs addressing. The _only_ reason that FA aren't accepted is because _fat people_ aren't accepted by society. That is literally the only reason. As for why fat people aren't accepted in society? 0% of that reason is because people randomly don't like FAs. You are reducing all the issues that fat people, regardless of gender, face in society to nothing so that you can all pat yourselves on the back about how hard it is being an FA. The fat people you are dating face the same things you do, plus a thousand other forms of prejudice. If you really, truly think that what you are saying here makes sense, I advise you to log off the internet and go outside and interact with some real people. Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects and see what the world is like for us. Because this kind of talk is self-obsessed and dismissive at best.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Sep 21, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> The _only_ reason that FA aren't accepted is because _fat people_ aren't accepted by society. That is literally the only reason. As for why fat people aren't accepted in society? 0% of that reason is because people randomly don't like FAs. You are reducing all the issues that fat people, regardless of gender, face in society to nothing so that you can all pat yourselves on the back about how hard it is being an FA. The fat people you are dating face the same things you do, plus a thousand other forms of prejudice. If you really, truly think that what you are saying here makes sense, I advise you to log off the internet and go outside and interact with some real people. Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects and see what the world is like for us. Because this kind of talk is self-obsessed and dismissive at best.



Can't rep you. But I can say,"YOU GO, GIRL!"


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## waldo (Sep 21, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> It seems to me that you are misinterpreting what they are saying. What she is (trying) to say is that regardless of what society views as attractive, he finds her beautiful/attractive. Even when she is hairy, dirty and fat, he is still attracted to her. That she doesn't have to look her 'best' all the time to be attractive to him; and there is a lot of pressure on fat women (and women in general) to always be feminine/presentable/fashionable in order to be attractive.
> 
> Also, you're wrong about it being 'rare as hen's teeth' not to have a strong size preference. Just look around the boards outside of the FA board and you will see that. Most people have a wide range of what they find super-attractive and an even wider range that they find cute/hot. The importance of size in determining attractiveness also varies between people; for some people it is the most important factor in whether or not they find somebody attractive and for other people it is just a mild preference. The world is _full_ of variety when it comes to people and you are doing yourself a huge disservice in assuming everybody is the same as you.
> 
> ...



"Even when she is hairy, dirty and fat, he is still attracted to her."

You actually believe that?! You really think he is not attracted to her plus-size body and is just in it for her pretty face and wonderful personality? Possible but unlikely.

As far as me 'misinterpreting' the gist of this article and the many more like it that I have read recently: it's not so much me as when I read the comments left by other readers. Many many comments left by other guys (and women) are along the lines of 'quit trying to ram it down our throats that we should find fat women sexy. I will NEVER buy into it' When I reply to such a comment saying I like fat women and I don't expect others to agree but just to live and let live, I am met with a bunch of 'thumbs down'. So the problem is when they are disingenuous and not presenting it as plus size women are attractive to some and that's ok. They are trying to promote that concept that you just need to find 'the right guy' who will look past your body to the real you. I think those guys are rare and if they are not really attracted to their partner from head to toe on day 1, it is not a good start to a relationship. For someone who recently posted that you would not want a guy who was not attracted to your plus-size body, I am surprised at your take on this.

As for my last point about fat acceptance coming through FA acceptance: yeah I misstated that. What I should have said is that we need a rising tide that will raise our boats together. The two can and should be linked. Consider fat people are discriminated against primarily because:
1) they are considered unattractive by the majority
2) being fat is still considered by many to be a character flaw resulting from laziness and overeating
3) being fat is unhealthy

FAs are only directly related to point #1, so yeah even if FAs were more accepted by society, it may not necessarily cover points 2 and 3. Although I recall when I first told my mother I was attracted to fat women, the first thing out of her mouth was along the lines of "but being fat is really unhealthy".

As far as your comment "Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects". Well I do that every day with the fat woman (about size 22 currently) that I have been married to for 19 years


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## wrestlingguy (Sep 21, 2017)

A couple of decades ago, when I first joined what is often referred to as "the community", I could have cared less about size acceptance & what is currently known as body positivity.

I think it's entirely possible (and probably common) for most guys to not care about those issues, one of the many reasons that both SA & BP are considered feminist issues, and I think they generally do a grand job of repping both, at least online.

As I got into more serious relationships over the years, I became more aware of how the person I loved so much was treated, and became more involved in the SA & BP movements. I would guess that generally guys who are there just to "try" a big girl won't care about those issues. I can also tell you that having run BBW events for several years, many of those guys exist.

I might be lucky inasmuch as my attraction isn't solely based on size, though I've spent the past 20+ years in relationships with fat women. With that said, I don't make judgment calls about people who aren't attracted to fat women, or FA's who can't be attracted to average or thin women. Just as much as we can't explain the various attractions that we have,we also want people to understand our own, so it's probably a good idea to be more understanding of the attractions of others.

I think that Fat Acceptance has sort of moved into Body Positivity (or what I call "fat light). Whether it's Tess Holliday or Ashley Graham or GabiFresh, these smaller sized women are still good for the movement, in my opinion. Acceptance of any social/societal group often comes in increments (see civil rights, or the gay rights movement). I guess what I'm saying is that society can be desensitized to fat women in increments, and some of these models are paving the way (hopefully) to see fatter women on TV.

The only challenge that I see (from my point of view) is that since these issues are considered more feminist rather than societal issues, some of the women currently repping FA (& to a lesser extent BP) tend to be anti male (F*** the patriarchy) & shut out as well as shout down males who want to assist in advocating for the cause. While I also want to shatter the patriarchy, I'm also aware that we're all PEOPLE first, then we're female or male, fat or thin, black or white or yellow. I also have strong feelings from watching other social movements that every movement that has succeeded has had others outside of the movement advocating with them.

Now that I went off topic (a little), *I have to ask, does anyone think that articles like the one pictured actually DO anything for Fat Acceptance or Body Positivity? Just as important, are their responses more in line with what Loopy has brought up, or are both of them lying to themselves or the rest of the world, as Waldo alluded to?

*Finally, as a question for all, does it seem that her sense of self worth is shaped solely by this relationship, and if so, do you think that's healthy? 

*EDITED* I wanted to add that my own feeling about the differences between Fat Acceptance & Body Positivity haven't been expressed (yet) in my response. I do think that both have similar, but different goals, and means to reach them. Let's see how this thread goes, and maybe it will come up.


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## Marlayna (Sep 21, 2017)

Aside from the FA discussion, I don't care for this photo shoot, and it has nothing to do with anybody's body.
It's wet and muddy, and too staged to come off as art. JMHO.
Sorry if it's off topic. Carry on.


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## Tad (Sep 22, 2017)

I have a lot to say on this topic, and keep putting it off for lack of time to write and edit the whole thing ... so I'm giving up on the comprehensive response and am just going to address a couple of points quickly.

- Marlayna, I'm not sure if it was the setting, the photography, or what, but the set didn't do much for me either and generally I love that sort of stuff. I didn't think it was bad, just a bit meh.

- Waldo, I'm picturing a day when we had to move a pile of gravel. Wife put on old scruffy clothes that morning, and by the time we were done we were dusty, sweaty, and that lovely mix that dust and sweat make together. When we were done I swear that were it not for neighbours having a fine view I would have taken her on the back patio because she was just so darned sexy to me. Dirty in a good cause is freaking hot! 

And I really don't notice the hair thing much, like if my wife feels she's let things go I won't have noticed at all, and when she just didn't worry about such things for a while when she had a broken wrist (followed by surgery on it a couple of weeks later, to keep things nice and tender for a long time) I think it was a couple of months before I really began to notice. Not a credit to me, just something that doesn't register with me much.

All of which is to say that the comment in that article didn't make me bat an eyelash. To me it just read "he's attracted to me even when I've not made a bit effort to present myself well" to which my thought was "Well duh, you are sexy to him, you'll be sexy to him at all times." Seems normal in my world.

- My biggest regret about such articles is that they are still generally limited to size 16-18 (American sizing) type women. I remember speculating about the future of size acceptance a long time ago (on the old forum boards), hoping that size acceptance would lead to greater acceptance of all bodies, but fearing that it would instead make a divide of the good fatties and the bad fatties, with the former to become more accepted and the latter shunned all the harder. I do kind of feel that this is the situation that is coming to pass.


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## waldo (Sep 23, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> - snip -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes it probably does do at least a marginal benefit to fat acceptance. My issue with it is not so much what they said but what they DID NOT say. Chances are this dude featured in the article appreciates (and more than likely prefers) his fiance's abundant curves. Some even vague reference to that would have sufficed for me, but the way it was portrayed: 'oh my guy is such a kind and enlightened soul, he just loves me for me no matter how I look' comes off pretty fairytailish/delusional. While I had suggested the possibility of selective editing by this feminist/SJW-leaning rag in which the article appeared to avoid taking on the issue directly, I am thinking on further consideration that he is just holding his cards close to his chest on the issue.

Interesting point about whether her self-worth is too tied to her relationship. If she continues to struggle with her body issues and her prince charming dumps her down the road (pretty big chance things go sour at some point), she could be being set up for a major fall.



Tad said:


> I have a lot to say on this topic, and keep putting it off for lack of time to write and edit the whole thing ... so I'm giving up on the comprehensive response and am just going to address a couple of points quickly.
> 
> - Marlayna, I'm not sure if it was the setting, the photography, or what, but the set didn't do much for me either and generally I love that sort of stuff. I didn't think it was bad, just a bit meh.
> 
> ...



I look forward to seeing the more detailed thoughts that you alluded to soon. I get what you are saying about still finding your mate attractive even when they are not dolled up and may be sweaty, dirty, disheveled, etc. But the key being that you are inherently attracted to that person in the first place. Now that I read that article again, I realize part of the problem may just be that the young lady is not very articulate and was somewhat blathering on with things that maybe she thought would sound good. Consider two statements from her in the article:
1: "He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look, that I’m beautiful regardless."
2: "We have been able to inspire society to believe that who they are and what they look like is enough to be truly loved"

In the first statement, she says it doesn't matter how she looks - he loves her anyway. The second statement she is saying something about "who they are AND what they look like is enough to be truly loved". Then again there may have been an error with the word 'not' having been accidentally left out of that second statement. Yes who you are is what makes someone love you, BUT how you look is generally what gives you the chance to get that other person to know you as a person in the first place.

I TOTALLY agree that we are going into a situation of divergence in the cause of size/fat acceptance. The 'small fats' are making inroads and we are even starting to see more medical data showing their health outcomes (women at least) are actually pretty good. The supersized people are being left in the dust, and as I mentioned above, the shunning of fat people over the health issues and how it may be a detriment to society is possibly making it worse than ever. For example when one of these prominent plus-sized models is interviewed they typically have tossed at them this question along the lines of "but aren't you promoting obesity / unhealthy lifestyle". While they may dance around the topic and say things such as 'oh but I exercise and eat well, my body just naturally is this size', it is much easier to do when you are size 16 than when you are size 26.


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## agouderia (Sep 23, 2017)

This is one of these FA-threads that fundamentally annoys me as a smaller fat woman in several ways.

Seriously - every man who loves a woman who wears more than a single digit US size is a FA??? A closeted one who has to be pulled out by the true, well-meaning FAs?? Is being an FA or a non FA the only categories there are? 

Being so monodimensional and immediately categorizing people - mainly women - and situation gives you a highly distorted perspective on reality.

Bottom line though, this means that the FA's here have totally embraced society's weight standards that any woman over BMI 20 is "fat" and needs to be "accepted". 

In contrast, the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less.

And the here presented line of argument is a complete misunderstanding of what the "Body Positivity" movement is all about. It's about extending the definition of what is a "normal" size of a woman. That it is not normal, especially for women >5'8" to fit into size <6. That a healthy, attractive body and person is not limited to that narrow size range. That a size US 18 does not constitute unhealthy obesity.

As long as "fat" starts at the latest at size US 12 - then fat acceptance doesn't stand a chance - especially not if it's vocal FA precursors have internalized this line of thinking.
If everything up to about a size US 18-20 is normal - only then does more acceptance for even more weight stand a chance.


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## Xyantha Reborn (Sep 23, 2017)

Me and my guy have been together for nearly a decade - the times he gets randy and hot to trot are when I am what he calls "naturally beautiful and sensual". Not when i put on makeup and shave. Not when i put on a hot dress. It's when i have my hair up in a messy bun, am leaning in the counter, and smile at him absently.

Not all men are ruled by sex hormones to an overwhelming degree. My hubby doesn't notice when i go up or down a size, and he only notices if i havn't shaved if its that length that burns when you rub against it. (He jokingly said years ago to either shave it or let it grow out because the stubble hurts). What he finds sexy is be being myself - not being thin, or fat. Not being naked or dressed up. (I like being naked to the point he joked seeing me in clothes is hot because it's different.)

I've been out, my hair was messy from the wind and my eye makeup smudged. When i was outraged and demanded why he didn't tell me i looked terrible he blinked and asked what i meant. He doesn't go "oh, she has a piece of hair sticking up. So unsexy." Or go "damn, i wanted to have sex but that little smudge of eye makeup is a turnoff" or "hmm she is wearing her fat pants, guess that's ick".

What turns him off?
When i am aggressively horny (unfortunate, because well...)
My period (stupid monthly revenge for not having a baby!)

Other than that, yeah, he honesty doesn't really care about small changes in my appearance.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Sep 23, 2017)

waldo said:


> The 'small fats' are making inroads and we are even starting to see more medical data showing their health outcomes (women at least) are actually pretty good.




For a (IMO) thorough, well-conducted study see the article by Flegal et al. in the January 2013 issue of the _Journal of the American Medical Association_. It is actually a review of over 700 studies on the relationship between BMI and mortality rate, involving more than 2000 subjects, and you can look it up on the JAMA website.


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## waldo (Sep 23, 2017)

agouderia said:


> This is one of these FA-threads that fundamentally annoys me as a smaller fat woman in several ways.
> 
> Seriously - every man who loves a woman who wears more than a single digit US size is a FA??? A closeted one who has to be pulled out by the true, well-meaning FAs?? Is being an FA or a non FA the only categories there are?
> 
> ...



You make some good points, but you are a little off base in a couple of areas. While this thread was started by an FA (me), it should be more about how this body positivity campaign relates to true size acceptance and whether it is benefiting all those above society's cutoff for 'normal' weight. You stated that as a BMI 20 but the number is actual 25. You are 100% right that not all men whose desired body shape in a woman extends past single digit dress size are 'FAs'. I recall a study from a few years back which showed that the majority of men actually preferred the more voluptuous size 10-14 body. However for the majority of men, getting up into the upper teens in dress size with the accompanying fat rolls and big thighs/butt with abundant cellulite (as the girl in the article) will be considered not sexy anymore. Just go to an article about one of these famous plus-size models like Ashley Graham (size 14-16) or Hunter McGrady (size 18) and look at the reader comments. You will find multiple comments left by men (and a few women) about what huge fatties they are and how they are walking health timebombs (or will be as they get older). Those comments will be greeted with much agreement and dozens to hundreds of thumbs up.

You mentioned a monodimensional mentality about there being only FAs and nonFAs. No it is more complex than that. In general, men have ranges of female body shape and size that turns them on. A few will only like the skinny women (dress size in single digits), many will be equally attracted to women around the middle ranges (say size 8-14). A sizable but smaller number will prefer a woman 'with some meat on her bones' (say size 12-18). Are this category FA's? I would say yes, but just as there are small BBWs (which you called yourself), there are FAs who prefer smaller fat women and are not interested in SSBBW. Maybe calling them something other than 'FA' would help clarify what it is we are talking about. And then we have the guys we more traditionally think of as FAs, whose preference goes into the SSBBW range. So men's preference ranges will be something of a Bell-shaped distribution, which should be a good thing since that roughly correlates with the distribution of body sizes in the ladies (God created someone for everyone).

And it is not a matter of FAs or fat people having internalized the idea that fat starts at size 12. This is the societal view - we are dealing with the hand we have been given. Denial is not going to help anyone. And that was my bone to pick with the article in the present discussion. You said: "In contrast, the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less." I say he probably fits into that category of 'FAs' who likes the woman with a little meat on their bones, and acknowledgment of that would be helpful to the cause. But all we can do is speculate. For all we know he is really into SSBBW, but is going with that small fat woman because she can 'pass' for 'normal'. At the same time a guy that enters such a relationship may be anticipating his wife gaining weight over the years. Those stealth FAs are an interesting bunch.

Your argument really speaks to Tad's point about the potential for the smaller 'good' fatties becoming more accepted while those who are larger are further ostracized. The same could be said about the men attracted/partnered to these women. It seems you want to be seen as 'normal' by having societal range of normal increased to include you. But do you actually care about the lot of those much larger than you? From the tone of your post, I am doubtful.

So I would say your thinking may be flawed regarding fat acceptance being doomed unless the normal size is gradually expanded upward. The idea of 'incremental' progress in acceptance is leaving those larger fat people at the back of the line waiting for their chance to be accepted and continuing to be discriminated against (along with those of us who find those larger fat people desirable).

Anyways, I definitely appreciate your thoughts, so thanks for commenting. And I can understand if you as 'a smaller fat woman' may have animosity for FAs. I know it is a slap in the face for many who have been told for many years they are too big to be desired only to discover this group of men for which you are consider 'too skinny'. Yeah the world is a cruel place indeed....




Dr. Feelgood said:


> For a (IMO) thorough, well-conducted study see the article by Flegal et al. in the January 2013 issue of the _Journal of the American Medical Association_. It is actually a review of over 700 studies on the relationship between BMI and mortality rate, involving more than 2000 subjects, and you can look it up on the JAMA website.



Yes, that is the exact study I was referring to. Here is a link to an article that discusses it: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ght-people-have-lower-death-risk-8434743.html


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## HereticFA (Sep 23, 2017)

Marlayna said:


> Aside from the FA discussion, I don't care for this photo shoot, and it has nothing to do with anybody's body.
> It's wet and muddy, and *too staged to come off as art.* JMHO.
> Sorry if it's off topic. Carry on.


It seems to be documenting just another day for young lovers in the 'ole swimmin' hole in east Texas, the edge of bayou country.


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## agouderia (Sep 27, 2017)

waldo said:


> Anyways, I definitely appreciate your thoughts, so thanks for commenting. And I can understand if you as 'a smaller fat woman' may have animosity for FAs. I know it is a slap in the face for many who have been told for many years they are too big to be desired only to discover this group of men for which you are consider 'too skinny'. Yeah the world is a cruel place indeed....



Being patronizing doesn't make your line of argument any stronger or correcter.

It only shows you are ignorant of strategic public communications - even conveying the impression that it's fine with you that all people deemed "fat" today remain ostracized ad extendum.

I wrote BMI 20 because that is the social norm for women, not the medically defined limit of BMI25. Many of the tall so-called plus-size models actually have BMIs within this range - and are constantly fat shamed, denounced for celebrating obesity, etc.

For all people with weight issues who do not share your unrealistic "all-or-nothing" approach it would already be a huge success if the Body Positivity movement succeeded in helping outlaw fat shaming for all "chubbies" of BMI 25. Or maybe even BMI 30 - because evidence is very scarce that this weight range poses any notable health risks. 
So fat shaming is finally releaved as how incredibly stupid it really is.

This is a goal which is achievable in a long hard fight - since it has the better arguments on it's side. And because it has more affected people - be it for themselves or their loved ones - who can participate in this fight. Numbers and arguments are there.

That would spare app. 75% of all fat people a life without constant shaming.

And you're against that? Would prefer to accept the enemy stance and keep 100% having to constantly defend themselves? 
Especially since it can be realistically assumed that making small fat shaming socially unacceptable would also help a large portion of >BMI 30 people.

I'll be honest - I don't see any positive inroads can be made in the forseeable future for SSBBW/HM-dom - and that is sad.

But wanting to keep progress from so many people just because you can't get 100% of what you want points to a highly questionable motivation, to put it mildly.

Should yours be a wide spread opinion in the FA movement, then it starkly elucidates why fat acceptance has made so negligible progress over the past decades.


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## wrestlingguy (Sep 27, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Being patronizing doesn't make your line of argument any stronger or correcter.
> 
> It only shows you are ignorant of strategic public communications - even conveying the impression that it's fine with you that all people deemed "fat" today remain ostracized ad extendum.
> 
> ...



I've always held onto my feeling that we're people first, then we're all the other stuff that helps make us who we are. I've never particularly cared for the term "Fat Admirer" for several reasons. First, I don't admire fat. The women that I have a physical attraction to happen to BE fat. The other reason is that so many shitty guys that I've met over the years who are also attracted to fat women give the term a negative connotation. The final reason is that in discussing fat acceptance over the years, using the FA acronym often causes confusion, and often requires clarification.

I've always thought that the goal of Fat Acceptance has been protecting the rights and improving the quality of life for fat people. It sounds simple, but it was the premise that NAAFA was built on. 

I think the waters have been muddied for both Fat Acceptance & The Fat Admirer group over the years.

Obviously these aren't FACTS, just thoughts of mine from my years around here, and many other places. There are still a lot of what I consider to be more traditional Fat Acceptance leaders, people like Marilyn Wann come to mind. Their goal doesn't deviate much from the original pillars of the movement.

The rise of the internet however, has created some new groups that have broadened the scope of fat acceptance. Many of the women in that group are smaller, many of them fashion bloggers and models. From where I sit, a lot of them catch heat from other people in the movement because they're smaller. Some are called "thin fat", others call them "big fines". Yes, some of these terms were brought about by Fat Admirers, but the fact is the terms have stuck, and I think it's caused divisiveness within the movement. I've also seen really big women feel marginalized as well, because they don't see people creating fashion for THEIR size.

The gay movement of the 70s and 80s was all inclusive. So was the black civil rights movement. Can we say that about the Fat Acceptance Movement? I've heard that what's known as the Size Acceptance Movement has been more inclusive, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Knowing some of the veterans of the Fat Acceptance Movement, I have heard that many of the men who attended NAAFA and other events over the years weren't always there to advocate for the movement. I don't know, because I wasn't participating during those years, but if they were there for nefarious reasons, then not much has changed for motivations for them.

The thing for me is this. Over the years, the guy's side of this has become very sexually charged. This is the only movement where that has happened. Even the gay rights movement removed virtually all sexuality from their rallies, etc. Think about what you see in Fat Acceptance today. Any coverage of it almost never centers around protests like NAAFA did back in the day. The coverage usually takes place at a bash, and the coverage usually extends to hearing guys gush on about how hot the women look to them. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with that on the surface, where is the fat/size positive coverage coming from? 

I think the one thing that has always stood out during my time around these parts has been that if this movement is going to succeed, it has to have people who are 100% committed to the movement, and that it has to remove all sexuality from it, because weight bias (no matter how small or large you are) is a SOCIAL issue.


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## John Smith (Sep 27, 2017)

Well, interesting.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 27, 2017)

waldo said:


> He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesnt care how I look, that Im beautiful regardless.



There is one thing I want to point out here. Whether this claim is actually true or not, the fact is that it does not, in any way, represent body positivity. Body positivity doesn't come from ignoring the body in favor of some other factor. It comes from acknowledging the body's positive qualities, even when the majority refuses to do so, and nowhere in this quote, or the attitude it conveys, is that standpoint shown.

The claim that all women have a beauty of their own is one that I can stand behind. I can't *appreciate* the beauty of every last woman in the world, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. However, when I tell someone that I don't care about their physical appearance, that's not being positive about said appearance. It's like standing by the Grand Canyon, and asking what's so special about it, or focusing mainly on the geology in the area.



waldo said:


> I think there is a twisted agenda out there to push this unrealistic idea



The idea that men, as a rule, can and should focus on relationships from a purely non-physical standpoint, thereby making it unnecessary for women to come to grips with their own physical strengths and weaknesses, or to accept (even enjoy) that their physical qualities make men happy? If this is what you mean, I think you're right. I have no trouble with the idea of my qualities (physical, mental and emotional) pleasing women, and I don't see why they would have a problem with their qualities being the same.



waldo said:


> FACT: men are driven by their visual attraction to the female form. FACT: not all men prefer the same thing. FACT: there is someone for (damn near) everyone. Anything else is fairytale nonsense or wishful thinking.



In order for something to be a fact, it must be both observable, and true in all cases. I think that #3 is far from observable, and #1 is not true in all cases. For me, for instance, I'm driven more by my tactile feelings than my visual ones. I would say #2 is a fact, however. Pretty obviously so.



waldo said:


> The door is being opened a bit, but we need to somehow get there and kick it open all the way. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not so much a matter of fat acceptance but rather a matter of FA acceptance. Once FAs are accepted by society as legit, fat people will be correspondingly accepted as well. We have had it backwards all this time. Then again, I could just be off my rocker



In a certain sense, I think this is right. A person can "accept" fat by just acknowledging its existence and normality, and still think it's horrible and something to be avoided or reduced. However, if you accept that Fat Appreciation is acceptable, you, by extension, imply that there is nothing bad about fatness. This has been in the back of my thoughts for a few days. It's a "chicken and egg" question.

Of course, neither one will ever be accepted, as long as the focus is put on *ignoring* the body, as in this article.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 27, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Being so monodimensional and immediately categorizing people - mainly women - and situation gives you a highly distorted perspective on reality.



I wonder if you have people you don't find attractive, Miss.



agouderia said:


> Bottom line though, this means that the FA's here have totally embraced society's weight standards that any woman over BMI 20 is "fat" and needs to be "accepted".



I haven't. I reject the BMI scale utterly, and even if I didn't, I would still find 20 to be pretty thin.

I'm not sure if you meant to say that some people don't need acceptance, so I won't address that point unless I hear clarification from you. I don't like straw men.



agouderia said:


> the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less.



This is entirely possible. Just as there are people who are completely asexual, so there are people for whom appearance means nothing. They're uncommon, but they do exist. I met one in a previous job I worked at. For all I know, this man could be one.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 27, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Being patronizing doesn't make your line of argument any stronger or correcter.



That's not "patronizing," Miss. It's "polite."



agouderia said:


> It only shows you are ignorant of strategic public communications - even conveying the impression that it's fine with you that all people deemed "fat" today remain ostracized ad extendum.



You might actually read what a person says before deciding what impressions they convey, Miss.



agouderia said:


> For all people with weight issues who do not share your unrealistic "all-or-nothing" approach it would already be a huge success if the Body Positivity movement succeeded in helping outlaw fat shaming for all "chubbies" of BMI 25. Or maybe even BMI 30 - because evidence is very scarce that this weight range poses any notable health risks.
> So fat shaming is finally releaved as how incredibly stupid it really is.



The problem with this line of reasoning is that on the evidence side of things, it's already quite obvious that fat shaming is incredibly stupid, and that there's no good evidence that weight alone, in isolation from other factors, poses any health risks. The reason why these lies have been spread so far is not because of evidence, but because of cultural bias, and biases are rarely effected strongly by evidence, because the majority of biased people don't pay attention to, or understand the evidence.



agouderia said:


> This is a goal which is achievable in a long hard fight - since it has the better arguments on it's side. And because it has more affected people - be it for themselves or their loved ones - who can participate in this fight. Numbers and arguments are there.



This *definitely* smacks of a sort of "let me get mine, and then to blazes with you," mentality, Miss. You demonstrate, in every post I've seen, no concern at all for more extreme cases, or those who care about them, so I don't feel compelled to sympathize with you because of the dictates of justice. If anyone can be treated unjustly, everyone can be.



agouderia said:


> That would spare app. 75% of all fat people a life without constant shaming.



I don't believe this is true. The only thing that would happen would be that bullying would be frowned upon and denounced by the broader society in an isolated number of cases. However, because people have free will, they would still bully. It's just that there would be protection for them.

However, the problem I see here, as an FA, a fat man, a nerd and a Christian, is the same as the problem I saw during the "acceptance" of homosexuals in a cultural sense over the course of my life. Look at the cafeteria in the lunch room of any American school for an example of what I mean. Kids sit at tables, dividing up into groups, and basically remain isolated from each other. There are a lot of tables, and some of them contain relatively-normal groups of kids, but there are always two types of tables that don't. The tables for the popular kids, and the tables of the bully targets.

At one point, homosexual boys, if they dared to reveal their real feelings, were sitting at the table with the bully targets; the people who the bullies recognized as different enough to be easy to pick on. Now, they're not there anymore. They're sitting at the table with the popular kids. Now, say you're right, and this same thing happened to moderate-sized people, for the purposes of this thought experiment.

None of this changes the dynamic as a whole, and someone always takes your place at that target table. What did those children do, once they'd secured their place at the table of the popular kids? Did they work from within, to improve the treatment of the nerds, the fat and the disabled? Far from it. In fact, many of them now pick on the targets just as viciously, if not more so, than their predecessors did.

No one deserves to be a bully. No one should sit at that table with the popular kids. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Instead, each person should be assured, by their parents, relatives and teachers, that they are valuable and special, with enormous potential and a beauty all their own, but that they must work to bring it out and discover their strengths, finding people who can appreciate them.

No matter what, we live in a world where people refuse to accept that it's okay for others to disagree with them on aesthetic matters. As long as this is the case, people will need to defend themselves, and even if it ceases to be the case, people will need to work hard to find someone who shares their positions and feelings. However, the number of people endorsed by our fundamentally-flawed system is irrelevant. It is fundamentally-flawed, and shifting its perceptions by a hundred or so pounds won't change that.



agouderia said:


> I'll be honest - I don't see any positive inroads can be made in the forseeable future for SSBBW/HM-dom - and that is sad.



That *is* sad. Why don't you see that?


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## TwoSwords (Sep 27, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> The thing for me is this. Over the years, the guy's side of this has become very sexually charged. This is the only movement where that has happened. Even the gay rights movement removed virtually all sexuality from their rallies, etc. Think about what you see in Fat Acceptance today. Any coverage of it almost never centers around protests like NAAFA did back in the day. The coverage usually takes place at a bash, and the coverage usually extends to hearing guys gush on about how hot the women look to them.



I find it curious that you think homosexual rallies contain nothing sexual in them. Have you ever been to a gay pride parade?

But in any case, I'm afraid this point about sexuality is one that I must firmly disagree with you on. The nature of the problem is that fat, as such, is treated by businesses and governments as a bad thing, and that all people who possess it are fair game for discrimination or mistreatment, as a way to "convince" them to give it up. This attitude also legitimizes the abuse of fat people, as a whole, in the public square. The core of the issue is about fatness, and whether or not it is actually the horrible plague that society has made it out to be.

It's all well and good to hold picket signs and protest its treatment as such, but at the end of the day, unless you have some reasons behind the positions you hold, all the protests in the world will just be discounted as the ramblings of nutcases by the wider public. Now, the question is; how do you present your reasons? Well, that depends on what you're reasoning against, so we need to ask ourselves; "what is it about fatness that is being used as a reason to discriminate against it?"

The largest reason usually given in public is "health," but this reason itself has no strong evidence to back it up, and some few good souls in the "movement," as you call it, have devoted themselves mainly to addressing this central issue; to cutting the legs out from under their opponents at every encounter. As long as this tack is taken in some sense, whether it's taken by a man or a woman, a fat person or a thin one, doesn't matter. We're dealing with matters of science and its limits, and for that, good reasons can be presented, and rules followed. Here, there need not be any division between women and their admirers, and I think this is the topic to which the "movement" should devote itself most strongly. Really, it's the only one that matters.

After all, if anyone said they were totally justified in treating fat people like garbage, or paying them less because they didn't like the way they looked, or weren't attracted to them, or because they value some social convention that's common in the world today, they would immediately look like a tremendous jerk for holding that position. Only the health issue is important to the success or failure of the enemy's argument, and it will effect all fat people to the same degree.

Where the social element comes in is merely in how people perceive fat people in their daily lives, on the ground, and here, protests *really* don't do any good. A person who is constantly out protesting and complaining is likely to be viewed by your man/woman in the street as just some malcontent. It's the people who are living happy, productive, normal lives who seem, to their friends and neighbors, to be acceptable; even likable, and if you like someone who holds an uncommon view, you're much more likely to be accepting of that view in the future.

The success of any movement happens only because people are convinced that the movement is right, or will help good people live their lives. This means that you will need the help of every person who is able, by their lives and actions, to convince others. FAs are quite capable of this, just by sharing their experiences and feelings with their friends, and reminding them that their own feelings aren't the only ones that exist. Whether or not you like the focus, this can open the minds and hearts of decent men, whose help every movement needs. No movement will ever be carried on less than half of the population.

Personally, I'm convinced that many of the cries of "sexualization!" come from those, within the movement, who are still not comfortable with the idea that the movement really does center around their bodies, and are trying to avoid that reality by attacking someone who's unlikely to fight back.


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## quantumbits (Sep 28, 2017)

IMHO the biggest thing you can do is look past appearance. I got great respect for anybody accomplishing that. Taht's what I hope I strive for, if it ever comes to that. I don't want to be so shallow. We can do better.

Body positivity is probably more about being able to appreciate what's actually important in this world.

And OP, you're probably right. But I think looking at the person--not the body--defines the apex of maturity.

EDIT: I don't want to cover everytyhing you wrote in your OP right now.


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## Tad (Sep 28, 2017)

Quantumbits, some may completely look past appearance, but I think a more common level to achieve is to enjoy those parts of appearance that you appreciate, and not worry much about the rest. Love the shy smile, stop noticing the crooked nose, notice the fat that they have, not the fat that they don't have, etc. Associated with that is the need to possibly shift your focus as your partner's body changes over time.


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## waldo (Sep 29, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I find it curious that you think homosexual rallies contain nothing sexual in them. Have you ever been to a gay pride parade?
> 
> But in any case, I'm afraid this point about sexuality is one that I must firmly disagree with you on. The nature of the problem is that fat, as such, is treated by businesses and governments as a bad thing, and that all people who possess it are fair game for discrimination or mistreatment, as a way to "convince" them to give it up. This attitude also legitimizes the abuse of fat people, as a whole, in the public square. The core of the issue is about fatness, and whether or not it is actually the horrible plague that society has made it out to be.
> 
> ...




" A person who is constantly out protesting and complaining is likely to be viewed by your man/woman in the street as just some malcontent."

This is a good point. There is an increased loss of patience from the 'silent majority' with all the social justice warrior activity out there. Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies. So pushing away FAs, as NAAFA did, has seemed to be detrimental.

I agree with what wrestling guy says that fat acceptance can not be taken seriously as a civil rights issue if its activities devolve into just a big socialization community and it is perceived as such by others. But yes we should be able to enhance the cause if we are able to show that there are indeed well-adjusted people who prefer a fat partner. If it is ok to be fat, it has to be ok for someone to desire that fat person. The two should go 'hand in glove'. 

Good point about how people just living their lives and maybe influencing the opinions of theirs friends, family and acquaintances can move the bar. BUT clearly this is not occuring. And it is not as if there are not plenty of men (and women) living their lives alongside a fat partner. Sure not all (or even most) of those are FAs, but a lot are (especially to the extent they may prefer a moderately fat partner). I think we tend to be too close-lipped about how/why it is that we are with that fat partner. Thus my issue with the dude in the article on which this thread is based. You are right that he is not helping a damn thing if he claims he adores his fiance with no regard to her body. Then again he did not ask to be put in the spotlight. It sounds like he may not have even been interviewed for the article, only the woman.



quantumbits said:


> IMHO the biggest thing you can do is look past appearance. I got great respect for anybody accomplishing that. Taht's what I hope I strive for, if it ever comes to that. I don't want to be so shallow. We can do better.
> 
> Body positivity is probably more about being able to appreciate what's actually important in this world.
> 
> ...



Yeah in a perfect hypothetical society everyone would not be driven by physical attraction, or desire for personal wealth, prestige, etc. Maybe in 10,000 years we will have evolved to that point. But here in the real world, it seems what you are talking about is simply repressing your desires. That does a disservice to all parties involved. While some women will say they wish they could have a man who loves them for the person they are and not their appearance, many would find a lack of fulfillment if such a scenario actually came to pass. Despite what people may 'think' they want, (almost) everyone instinctively wishes to be desired for their whole being: mind, body and soul. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.

And so it comes down to striking an appropriate balance and some compromise in the aspects (physical attraction, sexual compatibility, common values and goals, etc.) that guide who we partner with. That would be my definition of 'maturity', not some silly virtue signalling in which one says they look beyond appearance because they are focused on the more important things. Physical attraction is not everything, but it represents one of the cornerstones of a successful relationship that over time builds out upon that cornerstone. And after some time the building can stand even if that particular cornerstone was removed.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 29, 2017)

quantumbits said:


> IMHO the biggest thing you can do is look past appearance. I got great respect for anybody accomplishing that. Taht's what I hope I strive for, if it ever comes to that. I don't want to be so shallow. We can do better.
> 
> Body positivity is probably more about being able to appreciate what's actually important in this world.



That may be what you'd like to see (or even what some cultural movement going under that name now professes. I don't know if it is this or not,) but it's not what those words mean. "Body" refers quite specifically to the body, and "positivity" means viewing something in a positive light, rather than a negative one, or ignoring it altogether.

It isn't shallow to acknowledge a good thing when it's present. That's perfectly normal.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 29, 2017)

waldo said:


> This is a good point. There is an increased loss of patience from the 'silent majority' with all the social justice warrior activity out there. Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies. So pushing away FAs, as NAAFA did, has seemed to be detrimental.



Yes. I would say that's right, and considering that feminism is, in general, on the decline throughout the West (according to surveys,) I think fat acceptance is stronger when it doesn't go out of its way in that direction. If a cause is to succeed, the proponents of that cause need to be able to present a rational, united front, and so many "extras" have been added on to the fat acceptance movement that it's caused massive division. I think "no men" and "no talking about bodies or beauty" definitely are some of the worst extras you could add.



waldo said:


> I agree with what wrestling guy says that fat acceptance can not be taken seriously as a civil rights issue if its activities devolve into just a big socialization community and it is perceived as such by others. But yes we should be able to enhance the cause if we are able to show that there are indeed well-adjusted people who prefer a fat partner. If it is ok to be fat, it has to be ok for someone to desire that fat person. The two should go 'hand in glove'.
> 
> Good point about how people just living their lives and maybe influencing the opinions of theirs friends, family and acquaintances can move the bar. BUT clearly this is not occuring. And it is not as if there are not plenty of men (and women) living their lives alongside a fat partner. Sure not all (or even most) of those are FAs, but a lot are (especially to the extent they may prefer a moderately fat partner). I think we tend to be too close-lipped about how/why it is that we are with that fat partner. Thus my issue with the dude in the article on which this thread is based. You are right that he is not helping a damn thing if he claims he adores his fiance with no regard to her body. Then again he did not ask to be put in the spotlight. It sounds like he may not have even been interviewed for the article, only the woman.



As I see it, what we need on the social front is two-pronged. We need men who are willing to be honest with themselves, and others, about their appreciation for fatness, while also being perfectly respectable and living normal lives, and we need fat women who are living normal, respectable lives, and also are not only unashamed of being fat (without necessarily coming off as aggressive,) but perhaps even enjoy certain aspects of their fatness in their own lives, and are capable of enjoying all the elements of life that thin women enjoy (such as the company of friends, neighbors and people who are capable of recognizing their beauty in an honest and respectful way.)

The key is to be as civilized and well-informed on the issues as possible. The more polite and civilized you are, the worse your detractors will look. The more well-informed you are on the issues, the worse you can make their position look, without even half trying.

That said, there are situations where these tactics don't work, though they are few in number. Namely, I think it would be a bad idea for any fat person to go on television right now.

I say this, not only because the media is, right now, controlled by those who hate fatness, and will deliberately cast it in a bad light, but also because on television, all that people will see is image. A television audience doesn't know the way you live your life, what your family is like, or what you do for a job. All they're going to see is fat when they look at their TV screens, and that's not likely to make a positive impression on people who aren't already FAs and don't already like having you around. Personal experiences of people in our lives are, I think, the way to go.

I'm not saying I've never seen a fat person successfully defend themselves in a televised debate. However, I've been an FA all my life, so my perceptions of their success may not be shared by most people.


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## fuelingfire (Sep 29, 2017)

waldo said:


> This is a good point. There is an increased loss of patience from the 'silent majority' with all the social justice warrior activity out there. Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies. So pushing away FAs, as NAAFA did, has seemed to be detrimental.



Body positivity is about accepting your body as it is. How a person feels about their body is not dependent on how a partner thinks about it. It is independent of how others view your body, including FAs. This is a feminist issue. Has it been reduced to a feminist issue, or is it mostly getting embracement from the feminist community more than any other?

Referring to the community who embraces body positivity as a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies doesnt really help the cause.


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## waldo (Sep 29, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Body positivity is about accepting your body as it is. How a person feels about their body is not dependent on how a partner thinks about it. It is independent of how others view your body, including FAs. This is a feminist issue. Has it been reduced to a feminist issue, or is it mostly getting embracement from the feminist community more than any other?
> 
> Referring to the community who embraces body positivity as “a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies” doesn’t really help the cause.



Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue? Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society? They also are discriminated against by society for being fat. I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative. I would argue that feminism has driven such a wedge into what was a once promising fat acceptance movement, that we may never recover any of the momentum it once had.

And you may have some reading comprehension issues. I wrote: *"**Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies.*"

By 'many' I am referring to the majority of people NOT myself. As an FA, I have full support for and stake in fat acceptance.

Body positivity as an aspect of fat acceptance is legitimate. Certainly to accept one's own body is step 1. Obviously, you shouldn't expect to be accepted/liked by others if you don't accept/like yourself. But ultimately we all (other than a rare few) desire validation from others.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 29, 2017)

waldo said:


> Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue? Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society?



Yes indeed. There are far more fat men than there are fat feminists. However, there's also another group of people being ignored here, who is also greater in number than the fat feminists; fat women who *are not* feminists. Just being fat doesn't obligate you to be a feminist, nor is feminism implied by the fact that you're a woman, or by the belief in gender equality. Only 20% of American women are self-professed feminists; fewer in other countries, so if only feminists are permitted to take the side of fat acceptance, it will always fail, due to having much too few people behind it.

Also...



fuelingfire said:


> Body positivity is about accepting your body as it is.



See, again, this is not really what these words mean. I "accept" that millions of people were killed in the early 1940s, but that doesn't mean I think that fact is "positive." The definition that you present here would fit better with the general terms of "body acceptance" or "body tolerance."


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## fuelingfire (Sep 30, 2017)

This response is to both Waldo and TwoSwords. I flip back and forth between you to for order of logical discussion. 

Just to back track, operational definitions are required because of the way feminism and Body Positivity are being used in this thread. You dont have to read the whole page of each of these, but at least the first paragraph. You could choose to say that feminism and body positive movement are unrelated, but it will be both misleading and likely to alienate people who know a lot about the issue.

Feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Body Positive Movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Positive_Movement

Waldo by your own words, Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue'." 


"Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?"
Because it deals with a prejudiced group of people, and is strongly embraced by feminists. Its that simple. That doesnt mean others cannot take up the issue as well. However feminists are more likely to take it up.

"Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society? They also are discriminated against by society for being fat. I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative."

They are. This thread has mostly ignored them. Fat men are also receiving prejudice. Feminism covers them as well. Feminism is not exclusive to just women, but that is a very common (pop culture) misconception.


TwoSwords:
"Yes indeed. There are far more fat men than there are fat feminists. However, there's also another group of people being ignored here, who is also greater in number than the fat feminists; fat women who are not feminists. Just being fat doesn't obligate you to be a feminist, nor is feminism implied by the fact that you're a woman, or by the belief in gender equality. Only 20% of American women are self-professed feminists; fewer in other countries, so if only feminists are permitted to take the side of fat acceptance, it will always fail, due to having much too few people behind it."

I have also seen article about the decline of feminism. It is correct that fewer women want to use the label feminist to describe themselves. However when asking women how many of them believe in womens right a very high percentage, say they do. Not stating the number because I dont remember it. A lot of people dont realize they are the same thing, or dont want the label but want what its goals are. The title of the thread fits what I wrote, regardless of how you feel about it.

Waldo:
"I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative. I would argue that feminism has driven such a wedge into what was a once promising fat acceptance movement, that we may never recover any of the momentum it once had."

I would argue against that statement. To engage a larger audience, authors want to not use divisive words when talking about an issue (ignoring politics). To get feminist issues out, it is usually not pointed out that feminist issues are being discussed. Where are most of the outlets discussing size related issues? Usually they are outlets geared toward women. You may have noticed that there are few articles covering plus size men exclusively.
This idea that you must choose feminism or body positive movement, is at best ignorant. They are not opposite or opposing forces. Nor is it a bad thing if you realize your values align with a feminist.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 30, 2017)

Man, I hope I don't get hate for this post, but as someone who thinks of Truth as his first love, I just want this to get out, though in keeping with the terms of the topic, I'll try to keep it cultural and social in subject-matter, rather than discussing any political or economic topics.



fuelingfire said:


> Just to back track, operational definitions are required because of the way “feminism” and “Body Positivity” are being used in this thread. You don’t have to read the whole page of each of these, but at least the first paragraph.



Frankly, there's a disconnect between the dictionary definition of "feminism," and the self-professed "feminists" of today. What they mean by "feminist" is at odds with what the dictionary means.

Now, no professional turns to wikipedia as a reference for research papers, and here, they're presenting a definition of "feminism" which is contrary to what many self-professed "feminists" of today would hold. This is especially the case with some of the leaders in the movement, but in truth, I've never seen any feminist claim that another self-professed "feminist" actually isn't one because they hate men too much, and therefore don't believe in authentic gender equality.

If you want to understand what feminism has been, and what it is now, you need to look back at its history. During World War II, various icons and images were used to encourage in women a spirit of determination to work hard and succeed for the sake of their country, and to take pride in their ability to do what needed to be done. Probably the most prominent and famous of these was Rosie the Riveter, and although the term "feminism" was still a long way from becoming prominent, this attitude of the pride of the female worker drove the need for equality in the workplace, which would become a problem once the surviving men returned from the war. Suddenly, there were male workers again, and it was harder for women to find steady jobs like the ones they'd had. A struggle began for economic equality that was still going on when, in 1963, Betty Friedan wrote her well-known book; "The Feminine Mystique."

Friedan's book showed an image of women that had rarely been stressed up to that point; that they were like sleeping princesses, not contributing enough to society, because they were forbidden from doing the hard work that men did. To this day, Friedan is often credited as the spark that started modern feminism, and the people doing that crediting couldn't be more wrong.

The problem with Friedan's book is that, while many people read it, and liked it, the ideas it proposed never garnered the widespread cultural support of later feminist movements, because they focused on jobs, tasks and responsibilities; things that are hard and take effort. Friedan recognized the work that was involved in achievement and equality and embraced that effort, and while many understood her points, and agreed with them, there just weren't enough feminists who wanted to shoulder an additional burden in pursuit of the equality that she preached. They didn't want to be told that they weren't doing enough for society. They wanted to be told that they were victims. We know this because of what happened next.

After the 1960s, feminist literature almost never complained about the housewife who was kept as a pet by her overworked husband. Instead, they focused on depicting all women, everywhere, as saintly, and horribly-abused slaves to men, who needed to be paid back for the accumulated wrongs of dozens of generations' worth of inequality. More recently, feminist literature has become more and more sexually-focused, stressing the sexual license of women to do what they please, whenever they please, in a sexual sense (a license that is not sustainable for men,) and in some extreme cases, expressing open hostility towards the whole family structure and notion of marriage, (because keeping a vow restricts your license.) I've never seen any body of literature more hostile to children and childbearing than modern feminist literature.

Of course, this message, that you are a victim, and you deserve more than you have at someone else's expense, is by far the most common one in self-professed "feminist" circles of today, and it's easy to see why. It takes away all the psychological burden of self-examination and reflection on your own actions, by claiming that someone else is at fault for all of your problems and grievances, and it gives you something to focus on, to distract you from your responsibilities to your fellow man and to society as a whole. Let's face it; people in general are more likely to support a movement that says they deserve a break today, even when important things need to be done. You could, of course, say that this is just some immature people, with a faulty understanding of what the movement is all about, yet I've never heard any feminist leader denounce this immature behavior, in spite of its prevalence.

While Webster still defines feminism as a belief in the equality of the sexes, almost no feminists of this type have any sort of voice in the public square today. Indeed, many of them would be seen as traitors to claim that men shouldn't be made to jump through hoops that women aren't, or that women shouldn't have an unfair advantage over men in the hiring decisions of companies or universities.

A person who conformed to the dictionary definition of a feminist would not be welcomed by modern-day "feminists" in any sort of practical way. I should know. I believe strongly in gender equality, which is why I think fat acceptance should be a movement for both sexes; not just one of them. According to the dictionary, that makes me a feminist. Am I?

As for the article about body positivity, the neutrality of its content is disputed.



fuelingfire said:


> I have also seen article about the “decline” of feminism. It is correct that fewer women want to use the label “feminist” to describe themselves. However when asking women how many of them believe in “women’s right” a very high percentage, say they do. Not stating the number because I don’t remember it. A lot of people don’t realize they are the same thing, or don’t want the label but want what it’s goals are. The title of the thread fits what I wrote, regardless of how you feel about it.



I believe strongly in gender equality. I don't believe in modern feminism, however, because in practice, it's no longer about that. That's why women are distancing themselves from the word. It's become associated with a group of people who no longer practice "dictionary feminism," as we just discussed.



fuelingfire said:


> Where are most of the outlets discussing size related issues? Usually they are outlets geared toward women. You may have noticed that there are few articles covering plus size men exclusively.



Just because an outlet is geared towards women doesn't make it feminist. In fact, if it's not geared towards both sexes equally, then by the definition in Webster, it *can't* be feminist.


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## wrestlingguy (Sep 30, 2017)

waldo said:


> Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?



Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.

There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street. 

I have a daughter who just turned 30. She recently returned from a business trip to Canada. One of her coworkers at dinner one evening began to comment about another coworker's body, saying that he didn't like her arms because they looked "too masculine" for his tastes. My daughter works out daily, and when she confronted him about his opinions, even as they may relate to her, his answer was "well, that's just the way it is". To me, there's so much wrongness to that.

And I think that's why we need feminism now, though I think that a return to the attitudes of the 70s & 80s feminists might be more effective today. I do agree however, with the statements made that for FA to succeed as a movement, it needs people outside the feminist community to walk with them, and help advocate for them.

I also want to clarify a point that was questioned by Two Swords, who found it interesting that I thought sexuality was absent in the gay rights movement after I said that to succeed, Fat Acceptance must remove sexuality from it. For anyone who thinks that the PRIDE parades of today look like what they did when the first one took place, I would recommend the following article: http://www.history.com/news/how-activists-plotted-the-first-gay-pride-parades

Social movements, as several have described here, are about people being treated equitably. Though I think that people have rights to certainly do what they want in their bedrooms without being judged or treated poorly by others for doing so, it really comes down to a rights issue, and I'm of the opinion that bringing the sexual preferences of any of us (be it fat women, fat men, or the people who are attracted to them) simply clouds the issue.


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## fuelingfire (Sep 30, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Man, I hope I don't get hate for this post, but as someone who thinks of Truth as his first love, I just want this to get out, though in keeping with the terms of the topic, I'll try to keep it cultural and social in subject-matter, rather than discussing any political or economic topics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is not a scholarly paper, research paper, or high school paper. This is an online forum. I chose Wikipedia due to the broad nature of it, I read through it, and it aligned with my preexisting knowledge of both feminism and body positive movement. You decided to ignore it and use Websters dictionary, a two sentence definition for all that feminism encompasses. I still feel two sentences did not really help you. I noticed Websters has nothing for body positive movement, I am guessing this is why you were saying it means something else.

I decided to show this thread to a fat female feminist, my girlfriend, for her perspective. She has a bachelors in political science, and is in a feminist book club. So she is very up to date with feminism. This is what she messenged me as a response to your post. 

Feminist philosophy that focuses on the conflict between gender and power, and advocates for the social equality/equity of everyone. Even though it primarily focuses on men/women, feminism is concerned with the equality of everyone. Body acceptance/image/positivity is obviously something that feminist may be concerned with in general.

There's a disconnect between the dictionary definition of feminism and feminist thought now because the dictionary definition is extremely limited. Feminist theory is something that has grown and is constantly being contributed to and discussed, and is varied. Within feminism there's a huge variety of thought and people. But it all boils down to what I described above. His view is extremely narrow

His assertion that any publication not geared towards both men and women equally is by definition not feminist is HILARIOUSLY obtuse
And yeah, all he's done is written his skewed perspective of 20th century white western feminism


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## fuelingfire (Sep 30, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.
> 
> There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.
> 
> ...



I have to agree. The feminist community by itself can only take the message so far. I think any stagnation that has taken place, is that there isnt really anyone else picking it up. 

When it comes down to it. If fat people are accepted, there would be no issue for FAs.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 30, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.
> 
> There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.



Basically all of this is related to the physical differences between women and men, and the fact that women are skittish around men, due to those differences.



wrestlingguy said:


> I have a daughter who just turned 30. She recently returned from a business trip to Canada. One of her coworkers at dinner one evening began to comment about another coworker's body, saying that he didn't like her arms because they looked "too masculine" for his tastes. My daughter works out daily, and when she confronted him about his opinions, even as they may relate to her, his answer was "well, that's just the way it is". To me, there's so much wrongness to that.



That final sentence is conflicted. If something is only the way it is "to you," it can't be "wrong." "Wrongness" implies an objective quality of ethics, which could be supported by evidence. If you'd like to try to support the claim that people having opinions and emotions, or sharing them with others is ethically-wrong, you're certainly free to make the attempt, however.

Now, suppose it were something a bit less innocent than that, and he was being just totally rude, rather than just saying he has a feeling. In that case, feminism is still not needed, because he can be given a stern talking-to, either by the woman, or by any man who cares about her and doesn't like to see her disrespected. However, if he phrased things the way you say he did, it doesn't really sound like disrespect was involved. I can understand being *upset* at that, but I'm not sure why you'd think it's *wrong.*



wrestlingguy said:


> And I think that's why we need feminism now, though I think that a return to the attitudes of the 70s & 80s feminists might be more effective today. I do agree however, with the statements made that for FA to succeed as a movement, it needs people outside the feminist community to walk with them, and help advocate for them.



I guess my problem here is that I don't see what feminism is expected to accomplish. The existence of feminism neither prevents people from having opinions or emotions, nor does it prevent them from sharing those emotions/opinions. At most, it could lead to people getting upset more often over others who share their emotions/opinions, leading people to become more withdrawn, less social and less tolerant of others, but maybe I'm missing something here.



wrestlingguy said:


> Social movements, as several have described here, are about people being treated equitably. Though I think that people have rights to certainly do what they want in their bedrooms without being judged or treated poorly by others for doing so, it really comes down to a rights issue, and I'm of the opinion that bringing the sexual preferences of any of us (be it fat women, fat men, or the people who are attracted to them) simply clouds the issue.



*Preferences,* however, are different from *activities.* Preferences don't vanish when you leave the bedroom, nor do aesthetics or standards of beauty. If you're denouncing people who specifically discuss sex *as such* with regard to this issue, I can understand that. Sex is a private thing between the involved couple, and not something to use as a social bargaining chip. However, it is a mistake to equate all discussion of beauty and the emotions related to the body with sex.


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## waldo (Sep 30, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> This response is to both Waldo and TwoSwords. I flip back and forth between you to for order of logical discussion.
> 
> Waldo by your own words, Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue'."
> 
> ...



When I wrote: Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue'."

My intention was to say this is how I think society in general perceives it currently. I totally disagree with that, especially since, as an FA, I also have a stake in fat acceptance.

When I wrote: "Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?"

My intention was to ask why should fat acceptance be driven as and perceived by those on the outside as primarily a feminist/womens rights issue.

As I posted earlier, it seems radical 3rd wave feminists have largely hijacked the fat acceptance movement and driven away FAs, who they despise as just more evil objectifiers and users of women, like most other men. Anti-fat bias has been incorporated into the exaggerated argument that women are valued more for their appearance and disadvantaged way more than men if their appearance does not meet societal standards. I think this new body positivity movement is an attempt to reinvent fat/size acceptance without the radical feminist overtones but unfortunately focused only on women. And it is not so different anyway, as, more often than not, they preach that women should find themselves beautiful in their own way. But there is little if any reference to the idea that there will also be potential life partners to correspondingly see the plus-sized person as beautiful and desirable  other than to look for the mythical man who will see past their appearance. In the meantime fat men are left voiceless. Your argument that somehow feminism covers fat men is only true due to the intersectionality aspect of modern feminism. But again, the fat men are more likely to be told to sit down and shut up because they dont suffer nearly as badly from societal anti-fat bias, than to actually have their concerns heard.

When you wrote: This idea that you must choose feminism or body positive movement, is at best ignorant. They are not opposite or opposing forces. Nor is it a bad thing if you realize your values align with a feminist.

This seems like you are setting up a straw man argument. Nobody here is saying that just because you disapprove of the current brand of intersectional SJW feminism that it necessarily puts you at odds with fat acceptance/body positivity. This is true if for no other reason than anti-fat bias affects many people besides fat women, including fat men, fat admirers, and the families of fat people (most people with a fat spouse/partner are not FAs), including their children. It is particularly ironic that some of the most discriminated against people (by their own community) are gay fat men and gay FAs. So I have no problem acknowledging that I have some values that align with feminists

Any person whose heart is not filled with anger/hate should be able to get behind the idea that people should be treated with respect, no matter their body shape.


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## waldo (Sep 30, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.
> 
> There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.
> 
> ...



Yes feminism needs to get back to advocating for women to be treated and judged fairly based on their abilities and accomplishments instead of focusing on the victimhood mentality. There are still a few reasonable feminist academics out there (Christina Hoff Summers and Camille Paglia are stellar) but they have been marginalized.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the issue of how discussing the feelings and desires of fat admirers can impact the success of fat acceptance

I go back to what I said in an earlier post on this thread:
Consider fat people are discriminated against primarily because:
1) they are considered unattractive by the majority
2) being fat is still considered by many to be a character flaw resulting from laziness and overeating
3) being fat is unhealthy

For fat acceptance to be successful, I think all three of these issues should be addressed to some degree. To be considered a fully accepted member of society includes being perceived as desirable/attractive to at least some others. So part of fat acceptance should be the normalization of being a fat admirer. In doing that we need to avoid the mistake of implying that all men should find fat women desirable. I think I already posted in this thread that is the impression many seem to have when they read the articles on body positivity is that it is being jammed down their throats that all women should be seen as desirable. I think many are getting the impression this is some kind of cultural Marxist reeducation program rather than a pitch for diversity in thought and an encouragement of a live and let live attitude. Of course when you mention FAs (or generally referred to in mainstream discourse as chubby chasers) often points 2 and 3 are harped on. Or they pull out the fetishist pejorative.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 30, 2017)

These disagreements are irreconcilable until everyone can agree on what the hell "feminism" is and which subgroups (man-hating feminists, equality feminists, left-handed feminists with belts in the back, etc.) represent the dominant influence in (pick one) society in general, the fat acceptance movement (such as it is), NAAFA, Dimensions forums, or the FA world.

I believe (with no more credible evidence than anyone else here has provided) that the predominant accepted definition of feminism *among women* is the belief that men and women should be treated as equals in every arena: economic, social, academic, and intellectual. That's why I call myself a feminist. I emphasize "among women" because they're the ones most entitled to define feminism. It is about them, after all. (Full disclosure: I am not a woman, nor have I ever been one.) 

Men are much more likely to include terms such as angry or man-hating in their definitions. Undoubtedly, some females who identify as feminists are angry and/or man-haters, but I don't think that's true of the majority. (I'm not talking about NAAFA here, which may be an exception.)

The world's general low opinion of FAs is not attributable to feminism. It's mostly just spillover from society's irrational prejudice against fat - fat is "bad," so FAs are perverts or users. It's true that some fat women have been burned by unscrupulous FAs and reject all of us accordingly. I believe, however, that the the same proportion of sleazy males exists in the thin dating world. It's just that most fat women have never experienced that world. 

It's hard to be body-positive when society blindly accepts a morass of misinformation (about almost everything) and promotes a ridiculously narrow standard of beauty that most of us don't match. Sadly, I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. That's because society includes an excessively high proportion of mean-spirited morons, along with a few oligarchs who manipulate the morons with the goal of increasing their wealth and power.

Fire away.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 30, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> I believe (with no more credible evidence than anyone else here has provided) that the predominant accepted definition of feminism *among women* is the belief that men and women should be treated as equals in every arena: economic, social, academic, and intellectual. That's why I call myself a feminist. I emphasize "among women" because they're the ones most entitled to define feminism. It is about them, after all. (Full disclosure: I am not a woman, nor have I ever been one.)



The evidence against this position is that most women believe in gender equality, but only a fraction of them are self-professed feminists. As I said, in America, it's 20% or less. In the UK, it's 7%. Other countries often have even lower percentages, despite gender equality being widely accepted in the West. If they themselves define this difference between feminism and gender equality, who am I to argue?



fatgrllvr said:


> The world's general low opinion of FAs is not attributable to feminism. It's mostly just spillover from society's irrational prejudice against fat - fat is "bad," so FAs are perverts or users. It's true that some fat women have been burned by unscrupulous FAs and reject all of us accordingly. I believe, however, that the the same proportion of sleazy males exists in the thin dating world. It's just that most fat women have never experienced that world.



I expect (nay, welcome) the hatred of the world. However, it's just a bad thing when the vast majority of a movement labels us as just more male oppressors, despite the fact that we've never expressed anything of the sort for them. It's men who love women, being forced to not love them by those women, because they believe in a system of thinking that equates love with oppression.



fatgrllvr said:


> It's hard to be body-positive when society blindly accepts a morass of misinformation (about almost everything) and promotes a ridiculously narrow standard of beauty that most of us don't match. Sadly, I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. That's because society includes an excessively high proportion of mean-spirited morons, along with a few oligarchs who manipulate the morons with the goal of increasing their wealth and power.
> 
> Fire away.



There's something to be said for that claim. It's why I do research on every topic I discuss. I don't want any one source to mislead me.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 30, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> The evidence against this position is that most women believe in gender equality, but only a fraction of them are self-professed feminists. As I said, in America, it's 20% or less. In the UK, it's 7%. Other countries often have even lower percentages, despite gender equality being widely accepted in the West. If they themselves define this difference between feminism and gender equality, who am I to argue?



Most of the women I know do identify as feminists, but of course that's purely anecdotal. Forgive me if you've already cited it, but I'm honestly curious about the source of your percentages? 



> I expect (nay, welcome) the hatred of the world. However, it's just a bad thing when the vast majority of a movement labels us as just more male oppressors, despite the fact that we've never expressed anything of the sort for them. It's men who love women, being forced to not love them by those women, because they believe in a system of thinking that equates love with oppression.



I know there are many in the movement (which is really more of a twitch than a movement) who regard us as pond scum, but I doubt they comprise the vast majority. I could be wrong.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 30, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> Most of the women I know do identify as feminists, but of course that's purely anecdotal. Forgive me if you've already cited it, but I'm honestly curious about the source of your percentages?



I'm just about to go to bed, but I may as well answer this. In a YouGov poll conducted during the 11th and 12th of April, 2013, it was found that only 20% identified as feminist, and of those, less than a third were strongly feminist, by their own admission. Yet, 82% of those polled believed men and women should be equal, and interestingly enough, 27% of them believed that most women considered themselves feminists, and another 36% weren't sure. While it's not an exhaustive poll, you can check out the report in brief here. It's pretty interesting for dudes like me who love raw data.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/toplines_gender_0411122013.pdf

Oh. More raw data here too...

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_gender_0411122013.pdf




fatgrllvr said:


> I know there are many in the movement (which is really more of a twitch than a movement) who regard us as pond scum, but I doubt they comprise the vast majority. I could be wrong.



Or you could be right. That comment was based only on my own experiences with these groups, in person and online, but it could just be that the people who regard us as pond scum (as you nicely put it,) just have the biggest mouths, and therefore get noticed more easily than the nice ones. It wouldn't be the first time.


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## agouderia (Oct 1, 2017)

Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4937886/Plus-size-woman-FIRED-topless-photoshoot.html


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## fuelingfire (Oct 1, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4937886/Plus-size-woman-FIRED-topless-photoshoot.html



I wouldn't describe any bank as a "family oriented company." That's awful for them.


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## fuelingfire (Oct 1, 2017)

Both my girlfriend and I like these photo shoots. All lot of fat women have asked me, a lean fit man, why I like fat women. Seeing a lean fit guy with a fat girlfriend is not a common sighting. On Dims, FatBarbieDoll has created multiple threads asking if these types of FAs exist. I think these photo shoots send the message of "don't settle." Go for what you want. I think it can help young FAs and young fat women to actually see a role model like them. This believe links into my girlfriend and I being very overt in public with our affection.


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## fatgrllvr (Oct 1, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I'm just about to go to bed, but I may as well answer this. In a YouGov poll conducted during the 11th and 12th of April, 2013, it was found that only 20% identified as feminist, and of those, less than a third were strongly feminist, by their own admission. Yet, 82% of those polled believed men and women should be equal, and interestingly enough, 27% of them believed that most women considered themselves feminists, and another 36% weren't sure. While it's not an exhaustive poll, you can check out the report in brief here. It's pretty interesting for dudes like me who love raw data.
> 
> http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/toplines_gender_0411122013.pdf
> 
> ...



I stand corrected. I did find these polls interesting and instructive, with many results that surprised me. Obviously the participants' definitions of feminism didn't match my own in the majority of cases, and they were probably inconsistent with one another as well. Makes it hard to address a topic when everyone's parameters are different.


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## fatgrllvr (Oct 1, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4937886/Plus-size-woman-FIRED-topless-photoshoot.html



Unfortunately the real world is full of idiots and hypocrites, as evidenced by the bank's reaction to this beautiful and positive set of photos. That's the reality we're all stuck with. Body positivity is something we each have to work at individually (maybe with a little help from our friends), which includes working at disregarding the opinions of the idiots and hypocrites, which can be difficult since there are so many of them.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 1, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> When it comes down to it. If fat people are accepted, there would be no issue for FAs.



I don't work for and financially support fat acceptance so it would make my life easier. I've been a member of NAAFA and the International Size Acceptance Association over the years, and continue to donate to what I consider fat positive efforts.

I do it because it's the right thing to do.


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## waldo (Oct 1, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4937886/Plus-size-woman-FIRED-topless-photoshoot.html



Yes I happened across another article describing her termination and you beat me to posting about it. Considering that they live in Overton Texas. which is in the Northeast part of the state (relatively rural bible belt country), I am not surprised at this outcome. I don’t feel like it has anything to do with her weight, but rather the risqué nature of posing topless. If you look at the third picture from the top on the article you posted, her boob is fully exposed from the side although you need to look closely because it is shadowed. The tatoo on her right arm with what looks like a zombie face sure doesn’t help either. Since she only had been with that employer for about 1 year, they weren’t going to be very lenient. Everyone should know by now that employers are scrutinizing online activity &#8211; had she just worn a bikini top she probably has a different outcome.

According to this article, she said she already lined up another job, but she won’t be able to get health insurance from that job for the first few months or the paid maternity leave (she is about 5 months pregnant) that her prior job would have provided.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/plu...positive-photo-shoot-got-fired-194110631.html



fuelingfire said:


> Both my girlfriend and I like these photo shoots. All lot of fat women have asked me, a lean fit man, why I like fat women. Seeing a lean fit guy with a fat girlfriend is not a common sighting. On Dims, FatBarbieDoll has created multiple threads asking if these types of FAs exist. I think these photo shoots send the message of "don't settle." Go for what you want. I think it can help young FAs and young fat women to actually see a role model like them. This believe links into my girlfriend and I being very overt in public with our affection.


 
Yes but you are reiterating the problem that this story does not properly deal with the issue of whether the guy is attracted to his fiancé partly because of her plus size or in spite of it. That is a big difference, because I think the number of guys who will fall into the latter category are few. As Two Swords has explained, the message should be not just that plus size/fat women are positive about their body BUT that they also can embrace the appreciation of that body by a male partner. I am glad that you are open about being attracted to fat women. But you never mentioned what you typically reply to these questions about “why I like fat women”.



fatgrllvr said:


> Unfortunately the real world is full of idiots and hypocrites, as evidenced by the bank's reaction to this beautiful and positive set of photos. That's the reality we're all stuck with. Body positivity is something we each have to work at individually (maybe with a little help from our friends), which includes working at disregarding the opinions of the idiots and hypocrites, which can be difficult since there are so many of them.


 
The photos are great BUT going topless was a huge mistake. And as I described above, in one of the shots, her boob is fully showing from the side. I don’t think she should have been fired, but she should have been more careful about what she let be posted on the internet.


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## fatgrllvr (Oct 1, 2017)

waldo said:


> The photos are great BUT going topless was a huge mistake. And as I described above, in one of the shots, her boob is fully showing from the side. I dont think she should have been fired, but she should have been more careful about what she let be posted on the internet.



Considering all the topless and near-topless skinny women we see on TV, in movies, in advertising, and in other media, this shot is pretty tame. If you show separate photos of a fat woman and a skinny woman wearing identical, slightly risque outfits, you can count on the fat woman catching much more crap than the thin one.

That said, you're right that she made a mistake in posting these photos, especially given the nature and location of her employer. We have to deal with the world as it is, not as we want it to be.


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## fuelingfire (Oct 1, 2017)

waldo said:


> Yes but you are reiterating the problem that this story does not properly deal with the issue of whether the guy is attracted to his fiancé partly because of her plus size or in spite of it. That is a big difference, because I think the number of guys who will fall into the latter category are few. As Two Swords has explained, the message should be not just that plus size/fat women are positive about their body BUT that they also can embrace the appreciation of that body by a male partner. I am glad that you are open about being attracted to fat women. But you never mentioned what you typically reply to these questions about why I like fat women.



Who was the author writing to? Considering most women at some point have body image issues, you could claim the target audience is trillions of women. How many FAs are out there, no one knows, but there are a lot of fat women who believe they have never met a FA. Safe to say much less.

As a FA, yes it would have been nice to get positive media recognition. But it could muddy the body acceptance issue. The message then becomes seek out the elusive FAs out there, or you dont have a chance. Not meant to sound like a straw man argument, but people like to simplify topics, and that is likely what it would come to.

You are speculating he is a FA. We dont know that. 

I didnt think my answer to why I like fat women was relevant to the thread. I am not sure why you are mentioning it. I have written about it in other areas of Dimensions. It varies greatly, based on context of where we are, how the conversation is going, what is my relation to this person, is my answer satisfying the person. Its the follow up questions that get me, and only fat women ever ask: So do you want to make me/your partner super fat? Dont you think its weird that you workout and eat healthy, but you want a fat partner who clearly doesnt? Shouldnt you think fat is attractive on you as well, and want to be fat yourself? So then you are just attracted to fat?

I have gotten all of those multiple times. Where they come from can only be speculated. I think a large component of it is, hearing that there are men that like something that women dislike about themselves, is making them try to rationalize what they are hearing. I do think its fair for a fat women to ask a FA if he is a feeder.

Being a FA is really only relevant to the woman I am dating. As I have said in other threads, I do enjoy public displays of affection showing I am attracted to my fat partner. 

I think art is art. I hope some plus size clothing line hires her as a model, even if only temporary. Could even make it into a checky marketing campaign, Dont apologize for size


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## TwoSwords (Oct 2, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Who was the author writing to? Considering most women at some point have body image issues, you could claim the target audience is trillions of women. How many FAs are out there, no one knows, but there are a lot of fat women who believe they have never met a FA. Safe to say much less.



Right. They played it safe.



fuelingfire said:


> As a FA, yes it would have been nice to get positive media recognition. But it could muddy the body acceptance issue. The message then becomes seek out the elusive FAs out there, or you don’t have a chance. Not meant to sound like a straw man argument, but people like to simplify topics, and that is likely what it would come to.



The media also loves to simplify topics, and often does so incorrectly. I also think it's an oversimplification to imply that FAs can have their happy ending if the body shame issue is dealt with. It's not just about acceptance. We need to be told that it's something that it's good to like.



fuelingfire said:


> I didn’t think my answer to “why I like fat women” was relevant to the thread. I am not sure why you are mentioning it. I have written about it in other areas of Dimensions. It varies greatly, based on context of where we are, how the conversation is going, what is my relation to this person, is my answer satisfying the person.



I think he mentions it because he's wondering (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, Waldo,) if *you* would be willing to give FAs a little much-needed exposure, if you had the opportunity to do so, and it doesn't sound like you would.



fuelingfire said:


> It’s the follow up questions that get me, and only fat women ever ask: So do you want to make me/your partner super fat? Don’t you think it’s weird that you workout and eat healthy, but you want a fat partner who clearly doesn’t? Shouldn’t you think fat is attractive on you as well, and want to be fat yourself? So then you are just attracted to fat?



Waldo didn't ask any of these. You say these questions "get you," but really, they seem quite easy to answer, if the girl is willing to listen. I think the answers will be different for different FAs. For me, they're No, That's not clear, I do, and No, but it is a prerequisite for attraction. The answers to these questions may be different for you.



fuelingfire said:


> I have gotten all of those multiple times. Where they come from can only be speculated. I think a large component of it is, hearing that there are men that like something that women dislike about themselves, is making them try to rationalize what they are hearing. I do think it’s fair for a fat women to ask a FA if he is a feeder.



That's perfectly fair, but it only further proves just how much we FAs need the good press we're not getting. Women should really know more about the FA concept before they even meet me, especially if there's some possibility that they might be approached by me. If someone said they loved me for my thin lower arms, I wouldn't agree with them, and I might be legitimately interested in why they hold their perspective on that, but that's about as far as it would go.


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## fuelingfire (Oct 2, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> The media also loves to simplify topics, and often does so incorrectly. I also think it's an oversimplification to imply that FAs can have their happy ending if the body shame issue is dealt with. It's not just about acceptance. We need to be told that it's something that it's good to like.


If all prejudice against fat people was removed, what issue do you believe FAs would have to face?



TwoSwords said:


> I think he mentions it because he's wondering (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, Waldo,) if *you* would be willing to give FAs a little much-needed exposure, if you had the opportunity to do so, and it doesn't sound like you would.


Can you restate this as a question that you think I am refusing to answer? I am a very overt FA in real life, to the point that if I pushed it more, I would probably come off as creepy. A lot of my Dimensions posts have touched on this.




TwoSwords said:


> Waldo didn't ask any of these. You say these questions "get you," but really, they seem quite easy to answer, if the girl is willing to listen. I think the answers will be different for different FAs. For me, they're No, That's not clear, I do, and No, but it is a prerequisite for attraction. The answers to these questions may be different for you.


I think when hearing that a guy likes something about yourself that you loath, its natural for your mind to jump to extremes. Thats why I wrote the follow up questions. They are very easy to answer.


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## waldo (Oct 2, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Who was the author writing to? Considering most women at some point have body image issues, you could claim the target audience is trillions of women. How many FAs are out there, no one knows, but there are a lot of fat women who believe they have never met a FA. Safe to say much less.
> 
> As a FA, yes it would have been nice to get positive media recognition. But it could muddy the body acceptance issue. The message then becomes seek out the elusive FAs out there, or you dont have a chance. Not meant to sound like a straw man argument, but people like to simplify topics, and that is likely what it would come to.
> 
> You are speculating he is a FA. We dont know that.




The article is about a young couple madly in love and posing for these provocative pictures, partly to express their love and devotion to each other. Since the article addresses front and center the issue about the woman being plus-size and her ongoing process of working to accept her body, the obvious question follow up question is well what does her fiancé think about it?. When all she said on the issue that was printed is He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesnt care how I look, that Im beautiful regardless., this is liable to leave a typical reader scratching their head. They would be wondering  if he REALLY is not too concerned about her physical appearance, what other attributes does she have that are so great to have reeled him in?. The female reader is thinking to herself  what does she have that I dont?. You mention elusive FAs, BUT I would contend that such a mythical man who doesnt care how I look, that Im beautiful regardless is MUCH more elusive. So while I get your point about setting women up for disappointment by suggesting they should search out an FA, it is also setting up for disappointment that they can find a man who will overlook their fat body to which he is not attracted and still have a successful long-term relationship.


True there are not enough open FAs who prefer mid to SSBBW to go around for all the fat women in the USA. Even if all the FAs were brought out of the closet by a destigmatization of their preference, there are unlikely to be enough. BUT there is also a dearth of fat women who are comfortable enough with their body to be able to embrace the FAs appreciation of it and have a fulfilling healthy relationship. As you said yourself in another post, women can be floored that a man is attracted to an aspect of their body that they loath. As TwoSwords described, it is better for fat women to hear more about the existence of FAs so they can process the concept before they attempt to get into a relationship with one. 



Now to the group of men who like a thick woman, such as up to a size 18 (say their upper end is the woman in the article). As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is questionable as to whether they should be considered FAs. My suspicion is that the number of such men is quite large. However, many of them will go with a smaller woman to conform. These are the type of guys whose prefeeences will be more easy for people to get their heads around (versus the FA whose preference is SSBBW), so it would be very helpful to see more media coverage discussing that. For the current article, even a vague reference such as he appreciates my full figure / abundant curves would have sufficed. Notice I use the word appreciate, not prefer there.





fuelingfire said:


> I didnt think my answer to why I like fat women was relevant to the thread. I am not sure why you are mentioning it. I have written about it in other areas of Dimensions. It varies greatly, based on context of where we are, how the conversation is going, what is my relation to this person, is my answer satisfying the person. Its the follow up questions that get me, and only fat women ever ask: So do you want to make me/your partner super fat? Dont you think its weird that you workout and eat healthy, but you want a fat partner who clearly doesnt? Shouldnt you think fat is attractive on you as well, and want to be fat yourself? So then you are just attracted to fat?
> 
> I have gotten all of those multiple times. Where they come from can only be speculated. I think a large component of it is, hearing that there are men that like something that women dislike about themselves, is making them try to rationalize what they are hearing. I do think its fair for a fat women to ask a FA if he is a feeder.


 
Yeah, I just mentioned it because I am sincerely curious. It is not so much as TwoSwords suggested that I am wondering if you would put it out to the world but just, as discussed earlier in this thread, getting the message out through friends, family and acquaintances. Sorry, I dont recall having seen your descriptions of this type of discussion on previous threads. 

For me the answer would be (and has been) something along the lines of: it is not a conscious choice (my preference would to be attracted to thinner women), but it is simply an innate thing that I have felt ever since a young age. My understanding is that this is what most FAs have experienced. The various follow up questions about feederism, etc are ancillary to the core concept of FAness as a kind of quasi sexual orientation. But it is important to point out that for FAs, this attraction is not just to fat for fat sake. We are attracted to the female form which we see as being greatly enhanced by the additional fat. So, it is the fat body, NOT the fat itself to which we are attracted. As for the question about why you want to be slim while having a fat partner: there need not be any correlation between the two. It is because we are attracted to the female form that is enhanced by the fat, and that is as irrelevant to our own body as any other guys' points of attraction in a female. Are we hypocrites in this regard? Perhaps. Also consider: just because a woman is fat does not mean she prefers a fat partner. So if she is fat and you are thin it is set up to be a WIN-WIN situation. Then there are also FAs who like being fat themselves and fat people who prefer a fat partner. We all have our types and theoretically there is someone for everyone. 



fuelingfire said:


> Being a FA is really only relevant to the woman I am dating. As I have said in other threads, I do enjoy public displays of affection showing I am attracted to my fat partner.
> 
> I think art is art. I hope some plus size clothing line hires her as a model, even if only temporary. Could even make it into a checky marketing campaign, Dont apologize for size


 
I feel there is a little bit of self-contradiction going on here. If you want to make overt public displays of affection, is this not a way of signaling hey look at me with this hot fat chick, shes awesome and I am so happy to be with her. Is this not sending a message to other fat women who see these displays that hey I can maybe get a nice attractive guy like him too. And could this not be a message to other FAs out there (particularly closeted) that hey look at him. If he can buck the system and go for what he desires, maybe so can I. Or is this public display of affection more intended as a way of supporting your partner and boosting her ego? Either way, I see it as a great thing, you are advocating for FAs through your actions, But it is not consistent with the statement that being an FA is only relevant to the woman you are currently dating. That would be more consistent with minimal public displays of affection and a hesitance to answer questions about why you like fat women

Not sure what you are implying with the statement art is art? The photoshoot is risque and the one shot where her boob is exposed from the side is just asking for trouble. Its nonsense that she was fired over this, but in todays hypersensitive workplace atmosphere, this is to be expected. This could be considered as blowback for women being too critical of mens behavior and an employer looking to signal that they will vigorously enforce the code of conduct for both men and women.


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## fuelingfire (Oct 2, 2017)

Waldo, just from what you wrote about the distinction of different FAs would have made that article to bloated and any editor would want that removed. Much less a comprehensive discussion of FAs. Also, it’s never stated that he is a FA. You can theorize he is being white washed.

I didn’t post the questions I am often asked by women after I explain that I am a FA, because I wanted your answers. No offense but I don’t really care about what other peoples answers are to those questions. It was to show the thinking of someone with damaged self esteem. I dated an apple shaped girl, who wanted to keep her shirt on the first time we had sex… She would rather show me her vagina than her stomach, despite knowing I am a FA and discussing it thoroughly. Both of you latched on to the questions in the wrong way. That line of questioning has only come when I am single and heavily flirting with a girl I am seriously interested in.

FAs are not the answer to all fat women problems. Some FAs a good upstanding people. Some just want to have sex with fat women but never be seen with them in public. Which destroys fat womens self esteem when that happens. I don’t venture into the BBW (non porn) section of Dims very often. A lot of posts over the years have talked about meeting awful FAs, who poison the well. It can be hard to read. That doesn’t stop them from being true. I love the dating site Feabie (how I met my gf), but a lot of fat women say they have had bad interactions there.

I don’t know if you are just nitpicking but “Being a FA is really only relevant to the woman I am dating.” In my life that is true. It doesn’t impact my job. As I am in a happy relationship, I don’t do anything that violates the relationship. Though other fat women know I only date fat women, it doesn’t really effect my day to day life. When in a relationship I don’t excessively flirt with other fat women. Nor do I cheat. Nor do I tell random fat women how beautiful they are. Though a lot of people are aware all of my girlfriends (since getting out of high school) and my ex-wife are all fat. In my adult life, I have not personally been attacked for it. 

I am conscious of trying not to sound like I am bragging when I write on Dims. Both my girlfriend and I do like the idea of being role models for young FAs, and fat women. People should go after what they want, and should not accept what society tells them they can have. We see ourselves as activists in a sense. She dresses in clothing flattering to a 350lbs pears body shape. There is not hiding.

I still fail to see the relevance to this thread why I am a FA, especially in a thread about body positivity, but I will repost the story I have posted at least 3 times before on Dims. I don’t have a problem discussing it but it leads off topic.

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100532 post #18

“It was a specific event for me. When I was 5 years old and still in daycare before kindergarten even. Someone explained to me what fat is, what it looks like in food, on a person, that it is bad for everyone, and thin people look better. Fat was bad. 

One of the caretakers at my daycare was a young attractive BBW with very wide hips. It was the 80s so she wore spandex every day. I think I was her favorite kid there because she always seemed to give me lots of attention compared to other kids there. Being 5 years old, I had no social filter and just learning what fat is means I had to point it out. I told her she was fat and she should not be, a few times in a row. She started arguing that she was not fat, and started crying. I saw how much it hurt her saying it. It was also one of my first memories of what I say really effects someone. 

And something in my mind snapped. She was fat, but rather than being “bad”, I really liked her. The switch flipped, fat girls are good. Not only was she good, she was attractive. So fat girls are attractive. I noticed she was a bit distant with me after that, so I realized I needed to be nice to fat girls. To me, it was the most obvious life-changing event I have experienced. 

Within a few days of that, I was by some guys gawking at a women walking by with large breasts. They made comments to each other about how huge her tits were (she was thin). I noticed that thin girls usually did not have big breasts. Fat girls on the other hand much more often had big breasts. This reconfirmed what I had just learned, fat girls are attractive.

It sounds like a story out of Greek tragedy. I wonder what she would have thought if she knew what happened to me because of it.”


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## TwoSwords (Oct 2, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> If all prejudice against fat people was removed, what issue do you believe FAs would have to face?



There's a couple levels on which this needs to be answered.

1. *All* prejudice against fat people (or thin people, or tall people, or short people, or people of any given race, creed or religion) will never be removed, so long as human beings have free will. Perhaps you mean *institutionalized* prejudice, but I won't assume that, because I don't enjoy attacking straw men.
2. While there's no question that FAs face the problem of something they like being attacked, and that problem would be largely resolved be a severe reduction of fat prejudice, that is not the only problem we face, or even the main problem. The main problem is not the attacks of the world, but the attacks from *within* the fat community, and from fat women themselves. It's not fat prejudice that causes these attacks, but self-loathing, intolerance of uncommon feelings, and the paranoid tendency to imagine up problems where none previously existed.
In order to resolve these issues, we need more than just the reduction of fat prejudice. Fatness must be completely or near-completely normalized, as such. This means not only repairing the broken food, clothing, fashion and entertainment industries, but altering the rules and directives of a few government agencies as well. The medical industry would need to be held to some standards of honesty with regard to this issue, and even then, no headway could be made against this enemy until someone was willing and able to stand up and tell people that fatness is a good thing, which should be appreciated, without fear of having their opinions censored.
That last one, my friend, is virtually the definition of expressing FA feelings.



fuelingfire said:


> Can you restate this as a question that you think I am refusing to answer? I am a very overt FA in real life, to the point that if I pushed it more, I would probably come off as creepy. A lot of my Dimensions posts have touched on this.



If you had a chance to take a public stand, in order to defend the legitimacy and goodness of being an FA, would you do so?



fuelingfire said:


> I think when hearing that a guy likes something about yourself that you loath, it’s natural for your mind to jump to extremes.



Really? I don't understand that, I'm afraid. I mean, I tend to take everything to extremes anyway, but not to the point of assuming something to be correct, when there's no evidence to support it.

Aside from being mortal and imperfect, and having a hard time gaining weight, there isn't really anything I loath about myself either. I suppose the closest thing to this that I can picture is how I felt when someone at work horrified me by saying they thought I'd lost weight, but even then, while I felt scared, and hurt, I didn't start making guesses about their character or habits. I just don't get irrationality.


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## TwoSwords (Oct 2, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Waldo, just from what you wrote about the distinction of different FAs would have made that article to bloated and any editor would want that removed. Much less a comprehensive discussion of FAs.



On the one hand, the issue is only halfway relevant to this particular instance, if he's not an FA.

On the other hand, whether this particular person is an FA or not, where is the article about us? Where is the comprehensive study on what we're all about? Unless such a thing can be found, it shows that we too are being suppressed by the bias of the culture.



fuelingfire said:


> It was to show the thinking of someone with damaged self esteem. I dated an apple shaped girl, who wanted to keep her shirt on the first time we She would rather show me her vagina than her stomach, despite knowing I am a FA and discussing it thoroughly.



If you think I don't know what damaged self esteem is, maybe you need to read a little more closely into what I said. I personally suffer from this on a frequent basis, as a result of all the crap I've received for being an outspoken FA. Though I've made peace, largely, with my role in the world, I refuse to settle for anything less than an open endorsement of fatness being available somewhere in the culture. If not, I will provide it myself, at every opportunity, darn it!

See, the thing you and a bunch of other guys (and girls) don't seem to get, is that just because some of us FAs are stuck with a specific set of emotional stimuli doesn't mean we're made of steel. We can be battered into silence and seclusion, just like anyone with self esteem problems, and when you're stuck with feelings that make every pretty girl you meet think you're the devil, you can't blame a guy for wanting some freaking support from time to time!

You seem to approach this entire issue strictly from the perspective of how much FAs can (or can't) do to assist the broken girls we think are pretty, but the truth is, every human being is broken, and everyone needs support!

You talk about how bad FAs have "poisoned the well." All the more reason for the good news about us to surface at every opportunity! People in general need to hear the other side of the story, and they need that story now, now, *NOW!*



fuelingfire said:


> I dont know if you are just nitpicking but Being a FA is really only relevant to the woman I am dating. In my life that is true. It doesnt impact my job. As I am in a happy relationship, I dont do anything that violates the relationship. Though other fat women know I only date fat women, it doesnt really effect my day to day life. When in a relationship I dont excessively flirt with other fat women. Nor do I cheat.



That proves that you're intelligent, but not that you're accepted.

Acceptance isn't needed only on one side of this table, you know. Especially among the people who, in many cases, have been blessed with qualities that I can only dream of having. I've read articles online from FAs who face this problem, including one who says he's married to a fat woman, who also has a fat sister, and they *both* make fun of him for how he feels about his own freaking wife! If you think FAs don't deserve to be treated better than that, then nothing else I say to you will matter either!


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## Blockierer (Oct 3, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> ...Acceptance isn't needed only on one side of this table, you know. Especially among the people who, in many cases, have been blessed with qualities that I can only dream of having. I've read articles online from FAs who face this problem, including one who says he's married to a fat woman, who also has a fat sister, and they both make fun of him for how he feels about his own freaking wife! If you think FAs don't deserve to be treated better than that, then nothing else I say to you will matter either! ...


That's what some FAs fear like the black death, negative comments from friends, colleagues, relative and some people who will see you with your fat friend. My experience as a husband of a SSBBW is you will learn to ignore all these comments. To be honest I haven't got much. Sometimes ill-mannered boys make comments "look, wow" when they see my wife in bathing suits. I consider such comments as an interest in fatness. I guess some of them, when making comments, fantasize what it is like having sex with such a fat wife. 
Besides I love to be seen with my fat wife.


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## TwoSwords (Oct 3, 2017)

Blockierer said:


> That's what some FAs fear like the black death, negative comments from friends, colleagues, relative and some people who will see you with your fat friend. My experience as a husband of a SSBBW is you will learn to ignore all these comments. To be honest I haven't got much. Sometimes ill-mannered boys make comments "look, wow" when they see my wife in bathing suits. I consider such comments as an interest in fatness. I guess some of them, when making comments, fantasize what it is like having sex with such a fat wife.
> Besides I love to be seen with my fat wife.



It's not the comments or opinions of strangers, or of the world that trouble me. However, I feel that there's a lot more standing in the way of FAs being accepted (as legitimate. I'm not talking about whether or not she's interested in him romantically,) by fat women than there is vice versa. That's my point.

Don't get me wrong. There are obstacles to both, and you've just pointed one out, but some of us, at least, don't struggle with those. You don't, for instance, and honestly, being someone who tries to assume the best of people, I take a lot of the same tacks that you just described. I just don't want to be treated like trash by the people I think are pretty, just because I think they're pretty.

P.S.: The reason I draw this distinction between the women themselves, and strangers, is that the opinions of strangers, or even friends or relatives, can be ignored, and won't necessarily impact the closeness of the couple. It's another thing entirely for a woman to say that she can't respect your feelings, and refuses to try to learn about them or humor you (Yes, I have encountered this numerous times.) That's pretty much going to limit any "relationship" to only the physical aspect, and once that happens, what's the point?


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## fuelingfire (Oct 3, 2017)

This story is still not about FAs. If you read a story about football, would you be made that they are not talking about baseball? The strongest argument about FAs that can be made about this article is, the guy might have been a FA, and if so it was not mentioned. Ignoring the whole story about body positivity, to talk about a possible FA, just misses the point of the story.



TwoSwords said:


> It's not fat prejudice that causes these attacks, but self-loathing, intolerance of uncommon feelings, and the paranoid tendency to imagine up problems where none previously existed.


The self loathing is caused by fat prejudice.



TwoSwords said:


> If you had a chance to take a public stand, in order to defend the legitimacy and goodness of being an FA, would you do so?


It’s kind of an odd question. Would this question make any more sense asking, “If you had a chance to take a public stand, in order to defend the legitimacy and goodness only being attracted to thin women, would you do so?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with being a FA, if I could change myself into not being one, I wouldn’t. Is there a value of goodness in being a FA? The strongest sale I could give for FAs would be if a fat woman said, “I really wish there were guys out there that prefer fat women as partners.” I would say something around the lines of “Actually there are, have you heard of fat admirers?”

Unfortunately not all FAs are good people, just like not all non-FAs are good people. There are a lot of fat women who have had bad interactions with FAs. I am not insulting FAs here, but it’s not a healthy idea to be saying that FAs are the solution to fat women’s problems. This is why you can’t say FAs are good for fat women.



TwoSwords said:


> That proves that you're intelligent, but not that you're accepted.


Off topic, and frankly rude.


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## fuelingfire (Oct 3, 2017)

I am getting to the point where I think what I am writing is not helping you. This will probably be my last post in the thread.



TwoSwords said:


> I just don't want to be treated like trash by the people I think are pretty, just because I think they're pretty.



There is a line between giving a complement and sexual harassment. It often sounds like you dont know where the line is. There is a large chance this is causing you frustration in real life.


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## TwoSwords (Oct 3, 2017)

Let's go over a few of the things I said last time, to see how they've fared.



fuelingfire said:


> Ignoring the whole story about body positivity, to talk about a possible FA, just misses the point of the story.



I asked where the articles about us are. You haven't even addressed this, which was my main point with regard to your first reply, so until you do, we're going to be at an impasse.



fuelingfire said:


> The self loathing is caused by fat prejudice.



Even if it could be proved that this was true in all cases (and it can't be,) that still wouldn't address the other two issues I brought forth, so the same problems would still exist, albeit diminished in severity.



fuelingfire said:


> Its kind of an odd question. Would this question make any more sense asking, If you had a chance to take a public stand, in order to defend the legitimacy and goodness only being attracted to thin women, would you do so?



Yes, I freaking would, because I think that's true. It is legitimate. The same is true of all other emotions, including the ones that people incessantly discriminate against, like mine.



fuelingfire said:


> Is there a value of goodness in being a FA? The strongest sale I could give for FAs would be if a fat woman said, I really wish there were guys out there that prefer fat women as partners. I would say something around the lines of Actually there are, have you heard of fat admirers?
> 
> Unfortunately not all FAs are good people, just like not all non-FAs are good people. There are a lot of fat women who have had bad interactions with FAs. I am not insulting FAs here, but its not a healthy idea to be saying that FAs are the solution to fat womens problems. This is why you cant say FAs are good for fat women.



It sounds like you're just making excuses here. I already replied to all of these points, and pointed out that prejudice is never justified. Not all white people, or black people, or Hispanic people are good people either, yet prejudice against all of them as a body is completely unjustified, and I would take a stand that it's a good thing to be white, black or hispanic, because it is. Unless and until being an FA can be treated with the same degree of unambiguous dignity and respect, the enemy still has its claws into us.



fuelingfire said:


> Off topic, and frankly rude.



I said you were intelligent. How is that rude?


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## TwoSwords (Oct 3, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> I am getting to the point where I think what I am writing is not helping you. This will probably be my last post in the thread.
> 
> There is a line between giving a complement and sexual harassment. It often sounds like you don’t know where the line is. There is a large chance this is causing you frustration in real life.



I know exactly where the line is. Sexual harassment comes in three type. 

1. Unwelcome *sexual* advances.
2. Requests for *sexual* favors.
3. Other verbal or physical harassment of a *sexual* nature.

Notice the key point about all of these three categories. Something must be *sexual,* in order to be *sexual harassment* (funny how that works.) I have never in my life made a sexual advance towards anyone. When I remark that I think a person is pretty, I mean no more or less than that. They are, to me, like a waterfall, a sunset over the Pacific, a field of daisies or the painted cliffs; a beauty that inspires and drives one onward. I dearly hope you understand the difference between that and sexual harassment, and that I don't need to further expand on that difference.

Any connection between these things and sexual harassment arises only in the mind of the other person, and only as a result of a sort of Freudian assumption that all expressed emotions and motivations are sexually-based.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 3, 2017)

Blockierer said:


> That's what some FAs fear like the black death, negative comments from friends, colleagues, relative and some people who will see you with your fat friend. My experience as a husband of a SSBBW is you will learn to ignore all these comments. To be honest I haven't got much. Sometimes ill-mannered boys make comments "look, wow" when they see my wife in bathing suits. I consider such comments as an interest in fatness. I guess some of them, when making comments, fantasize what it is like having sex with such a fat wife.
> Besides I love to be seen with my fat wife.



*This.*

I don't see what guys who like fat women "go through". I don't see trials & tribulations because of my attraction to fat women. Even if I did, I'm pretty sure whatever I went through would be nothing compared to what women go through on a daily basis.

Maybe it's because I'm older, or because I am more than comfortable with my SSBBW fiancee on my arm. Maybe because I've rid myself of people who'd judge me based on my partner choices. Maybe it's because I've been known to not react in a nice way when people pointed & laughed, or tried to take pics of the fat women who attended the NJ BBW Bash. Maybe it's a combination of all. Blockierer makes some salient points here. I'm just adding my reasons why his points resonate within me. 

Honestly, I think the biggest contribution to Fat Acceptance a guy can make to the movement is to listen to what you mate has to go through, provide understanding & support in any way possible, and to live your life with them the way you would with ANY other person. Others over time will see that, and it will likely lose the shock value that it may initially have.


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## Tad (Oct 3, 2017)

And to put a twist on the start of this discussion, apparently the woman in the photo shoot got fired after the shoot got so much attention.

https://ca.style.yahoo.com/fire-someone-sultry-photo-164344503.html

I wonder if the same photos had been of a thin woman if it would have drawn the same reaction? (Maybe yes, maybe no, I don't know the people involved in making that decision)


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## TwoSwords (Oct 3, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> I don't see what guys who like fat women "go through".



Is that accidental, or have you heard FAs describe their experiences, and just ignored their testimony?

I don't want to be cruel about this, but listening to a suffering man in a prison describe his wounds, then replying "Well, I don't know why a wound like that would be painful," is not an adequate reply. It doesn't solve anyone's problems or teach anyone anything. It just makes everyone more resentful of each other.

I ask the above question for a purpose. I don't like wasting my words. I could go into some detail about how this difference in my entire aesthetic orientation (in both direction and intensity,) has effected me over the course of my life, but I won't share this story with unreceptive ears. It's too personal to be wasted.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 3, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Is that accidental, or have you heard FAs describe their experiences, and just ignored their testimony?
> 
> I don't want to be cruel about this, but listening to a suffering man in a prison describe his wounds, then replying "Well, I don't know why a wound like that would be painful," is not an adequate reply. It doesn't solve anyone's problems or teach anyone anything. It just makes everyone more resentful of each other.
> 
> I ask the above question for a purpose. I don't like wasting my words. I could go into some detail about how this difference in my entire aesthetic orientation (in both direction and intensity,) has effected me over the course of my life, but I won't share this story with unreceptive ears. It's too personal to be wasted.



I've spent many years thinking I was wasting my words in the forums here over the years. I still come back though. Maybe I just have a lot of words to waste.

I think we all come here for the dialogue. At least it used to be that way here a long time ago.

We share perspectives here. They're different. I am attracted to fat women, yet have had a completely different experience in dealing with people who are not attracted to fat people. I stand by these comments. I didn't negate your experience or make it any less valid by my statements.
I'm saying that I've never seen what guys who like fat women go through, because either **I* , *or the guys who I have gotten to know over the years (either at Dimensions, or who I knew in person through the NJ BBW Bash that I ran with my business partner) have experienced anything that could be considered personally traumatic.

By the way, don't feel like you're wasting your words because I or anyone else hasn't gone through what you feel you've gone through. While you may not change how I look at something, your feelings may resonate deeply with someone else. Just sayin'.


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## TwoSwords (Oct 3, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> By the way, don't feel like you're wasting your words because I or anyone else hasn't gone through what you feel you've gone through. While you may not change how I look at something, your feelings may resonate deeply with someone else. Just sayin'.



That's a good point, though I do have a story I've been working on recently, so I'll try to be brief. Instead of telling the whole story from start to finish, I'll just explain my problem's nature and its current state. I could go into its beginnings as well, but it would only be as further illustration of the point.

I am, to the best of my knowledge, the most extreme example of an *emotional* FA that I've ever encountered. By this, I mean that fatness is, for me, a deeply *emotional* thing, over and above any sexual element that it may have, or have ever had, in my life. It's been this way since before I was old enough to know what sex was, and it's continued to be this way, even now that my sexual feelings have ebbed. I have a lot of motivations, but they generally fall into three categories. Ethical truths, non-ethical truths and one or two major passions. Apart from perhaps a love of order (and I say "perhaps," because this might just be part of my motive to pursue truths,) the only driving passion I have is for the qualities of softness and size. I do, of course, develop attachments to other people, when I find them to be compatible with my feelings, but such situations are rare, and most people care more about self-expression than about my company.

Let's just say that if I were to express how strong my feelings are in this area, I think it would worry a lot of people, but I've had these feelings, as I said, since I was a kid.

Of course, the problem with having any strong feelings is learning to control them, so that they don't control you. That took many years and a lot of research and practice to do, because nobody seemed to think it was a good idea to suppress your feelings. Yet, whenever I would speak my feelings freely, people thought that was *less* of a good idea, so I did what I had to do.

It's only within the last eight years or so that I've been able to piece things together after a long study of philosophy and lots of practice and prayer. Right now, I'm able to hold down a job, I have a car and a lot of people who love me, which is a big deal, because it's all so hard for me, because of how strong and how alien my feelings are to all of them.

However, even now, I have problems, and have been experiencing physiological problems, consistent with heartache or profound loneliness. Indigestion, headaches, nausea, etc... I get these several times a week, when a great depression comes over me, sometimes for hours at a time.

The worst part is that I know exactly why I feel depressed. It's because as a person, I miss out on probably the most essential element of social life; the freedom to express myself to friends. I have no friends who share any of my feelings to the degree that I have them (as far as I know.) I sort of have to make do with passive-aggressive replies whenever someone makes some remark about weight loss that deeply offends me, or just leaving the area in a hurry whenever someone terrifies me by telling me they think I've lost weight. It's not enough, of course, and I write my own feelings out to myself whenever I can, just to get some of this off my chest, but I can never escape the fact that I am too alien to have a confidant. I can never escape that; even here, so my feelings usually either take the shape of sadness or anger (on the inside, though I rarely share these feelings with others, mainly because it wouldn't do any good,) except when I'm intentionally losing myself in some fantasy world, and no longer have to think about who I am on the inside.

This is why I've said, numerous times, that just being fat isn't enough. It's not a body I crave, it's a kindred spirit. I can never have that in real life.

One of my favorite episodes of the Twilight Zone is the episode "Miniature," because I have such incredible sympathy for the main character of Charlie; walking through life without finding any passion or delight in the things that others expect him to, and not really fitting in, no matter how hard he tries to be good to others and give them his best effort. If you haven't seen that episode, I strongly recommend it. It's an amazing study in what it means to feel different than other people do, and how much it can separate a person from others in their normal life (plus, it's the Twilight Zone, so you know something interesting will happen in the end.)

My life has been like that, and I want that state of affairs to stop, more than anything else that I want. This is why I need people to learn the better side of us right now. I'm stuck with a set of feelings that the world (the entire world, including the fat community) is trained from childhood to hate, and worse yet, the behavior and motivations taught by that world (on this issue and a few others) are just as angering to me as I am to them. In fact, part of the reason my current job has worked out so well is that I can spend almost the whole day without significantly encountering the opinions or motivations of my coworkers.

I've studied fatness over the last few years, to try to understand it better, so I can approach it intellectually, rather than emotionally. It only slightly helped, and I still wrestle with basically all the same problems, and every time I see any person, anywhere, spending several minutes talking about some issue that's important to them, some part of me always thinks "Why not me? Why never me?!"

I don't know if all fat girls face this kind of inner turmoil as a result of being perpetually an outsider with their own closest friends and family members, but if so, you have the most profound sympathies possible. There is quite literally no pain in the world that stays with you so often for so long, or hurts so bad as that.

-----

P.S.: On the off chance that you've seen "Miniature" and didn't pick up on the full implications of Charlie's situation, and what his fate would be like in real life, check out the episode review here...

https://tv.avclub.com/the-twilight-zone-jess-belle-miniature-1798177569

...About halfway down the page. It explains the problem better than I've ever seen it explained.

"In real life, there would be no happy ending to this. At best, he could force himself into a loveless marriage and spend the rest of his life pretending to be someone he wasn’t, inevitably becoming more depressed and lonely as the years passed. In real life, for someone this out of place and breakable, there’d be no perfect fit."
-Zack Handlen-


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## waldo (Oct 4, 2017)

fuelingfire said:


> Waldo, just from what you wrote about the distinction of different FAs would have made that article to bloated and any editor would want that removed. Much less a comprehensive discussion of FAs. Also, it’s never stated that he is a FA. You can theorize he is being white washed.




Certainly, I would not have expected any substantive (or any at all) discussions of FAs in the article in question. My contention is that (as I described in my previous post) to completely sidestep the question of what the guy REALLY feels about his fiance’s plus-size body leaves questions in the reader’s mind. As I posted previously, even some lukewarm statement to acknowledge his thoughts on her size would lend some credibility: “*For the current article, even a vague reference such as &#8216;he appreciates my full figure / abundant curves’ would have sufficed. “ 
*

*But, to me, the avoidance of the issue is symbolic of the inherent flaw of the &#8216;body positivity’ movement.*
*THAT IS WHY the title of this thread is body positivity versus reality. Reality is that men are driven by physical attraction to the female form &#8211; always have been and always will be. If good-looking young Texas dude is not into his woman’s body, then what exactly the hell is he doing engaged to her!? DO YOU REALLY believe her BS statement quoted in the article: **"He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look"*
THAT is body positivity dogma, as in &#8216;Just love yourself and you will attract males to your positive aura’. Unfortunately, this is simply pie in the sky wishful thinking for the great majority of people.



fuelingfire said:


> I didn’t post the questions I am often asked by women after I explain that I am a FA, because I wanted your answers. No offense but I don’t really care about what other peoples answers are to those questions.




This response is very offensive. It seems you are more interested in talking AT people than engaging in dialogue. It is particularly ironic that you posted this, and then had the audacity to accuse another poster of being rude to you in a subsequent post. 



fuelingfire said:


> FAs are not the answer to all fat women problems. Some FAs a good upstanding people. Some just want to have sex with fat women but never be seen with them in public. Which destroys fat womens self esteem when that happens.




Yes, because as I acknowledged in my earlier post: even if you could bring all the FAs out of the closet/shadows, there would not be enough to go around for all the multitudes of fat women in our society. But realize that the most logical reason that so many &#8216;FAs’ just want to have sex and not actual relationships with fat women is because of the stigma (real or perceived) that comes from partnering with a fat woman. Reality is that men are judged on the physical appearance of their partner (your wife's appearance is a status symbol). I can think of no other reason to explain why there are literally ZERO famous entertainers or other famous people who are self-admitted FAs.

FAs aside, I don’t think the solution to the difficulty of fat women attracting quality male companionship is to try to convince men to reevaluate their feelings on what they find attractive. You can’t &#8216;shame’ men into believing that all women from size 6-26 are sexy.



fuelingfire said:


> I don’t know if you are just nitpicking but “Being a FA is really only relevant to the woman I am dating.” In my life that is true. It doesn’t impact my job. As I am in a happy relationship, I don’t do anything that violates the relationship. Though other fat women know I only date fat women, it doesn’t really effect my day to day life. When in a relationship I don’t excessively flirt with other fat women. Nor do I cheat. Nor do I tell random fat women how beautiful they are. Though a lot of people are aware all of my girlfriends (since getting out of high school) and my ex-wife are all fat. In my adult life, I have not personally been attacked for it.
> 
> I am conscious of trying not to sound like I am bragging when I write on Dims. Both my girlfriend and I do like the idea of being role models for young FAs, and fat women. People should go after what they want, and should not accept what society tells them they can have. We see ourselves as activists in a sense. She dresses in clothing flattering to a 350lbs pears body shape. There is not hiding.




IF you want to act as a role model for young FAs (a wonderful aspiration), then by definition your being an FA is not only relevant to the woman you are dating. We may have an issue of semantics here, but whatever.




fuelingfire said:


> I still fail to see the relevance to this thread why I am a FA, especially in a thread about body positivity, but I will repost the story I have posted at least 3 times before on Dims. I don’t have a problem discussing it but it leads off topic.
> 
> http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100532 post #18
> 
> ...


 
Nearly, everything on this forum is about FAs and fat people; so it is relevant, especially when you yourself brought it up. Your story is interesting. BUT I do not believe that an experience at such a young, prepubescent age could, on its own, put someone on the path to being an FA. I would suggest this experience as a young child is just coincidental with you being an FA. You can believe otherwise, but that doesn’t make it true.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 4, 2017)

Maybe this entire discussion should be moved to the FA board?

I think most people (especially those outside our world) looks at it as a guy & his girl who are in love. Whether she happens to be fat, chubby, plump or whatever is a sidenote to the story. If the rest of the world outside of us views her as fat, chubby, plump or whatever is the bonus for body positivity and size accepance, even if not direct.

Coming from an older generation, I can tell you that for years women were told that if they were "overweight" (whatever the hell that means), that no man would ever find them attractive. Articles like this are baby steps into changing that way of thinking. Sure, our view from where we sit in our community reads more into it, but articles like this aren't written for us, they're written so that those who have resisted FA or BP see that those old tales about fat/chubby/plump women not being able to get men are BS.

Of course, those same people then smirk and say "well, I'll bet the dude is a loser". I love when that happens, since it allows me to normalize it when I say "So, is a college grad (with post grad certifications) who owns his own home, has 2 kids and a stepdaughter, a solid white collar job, who goes to church, does charitable work, and has been in a loving relationship with a fat girl a loser?"

If they answer yes, I remind them that the problem isn't with me, it's with them.

I don't talk about this stuff in an arrogant manner. I think that people who go about their lives who just happen to be attracted to women that are a bit different than what is considered "ideal" are no different than those who pursue that same ideal are no different than them, with that one exception. IF those people choose to ridicule, ostracize or do or say anything else negative about those preferences, it says a helluva lot more about who THEY are than about me.

From Waldo's last post:


> *"He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesnt care how I look"
> THAT is body positivity dogma, as in Just love yourself and you will attract males to your positive aura. Unfortunately, this is simply pie in the sky wishful thinking for the great majority of people.*



It is wishful thinking for a lot of people. It's not for EVERYONE, though. I can only speak from experience. I dated the woman who became my fiancee in 2010. At the time she weighed about 460 lbs. Over the past 7 years, our love has grown deeper to go beyond simply the physical. Somewhat like TwoSwords has described, it's become part of our essence.

So, about a year ago, she was having some physical issues, mostly related to mobility and stamina, and told me over dinner one night that she wanted to get WLS. She was concerned that I'd be less attracted to her, and that component would have a negative effect on our relationship. She had WLS in June of this year, and has lost a total of 80 lbs. From both a physical and emotional standpoint, *nothing* has changed between us. 

A few years ago I blogged about this (If anyone wants to read it, PM me and I'll send you a link), but over the years my body has changed in many ways, but the amazing thing about women is that they have the capacity to remain attracted to me despite those changes. I believe for women, love has everything to do with it. What I've learned over the years is that women deserve that back from me.

I think sometimes the issue gets clouded here when guys who call themselves fat admirers talk about their views or experiences. I would try to make the distinction between a sex only relationship with a woman who's fat, and being in a loving relationship with one. I think the perspectives are very different, and rather than making judgment about the different perspectives (which I did at times in the past), actually listen/read what people are saying/writing about their perspectives. Honestly in all of the posts that I read here, there's nothing wrong with any of these perspectives, as a fat admirer, about what each person writing in this thread wants, and about the article itself. I remind people that I only post here on occasion, coming in now & then when I feel there's a thread that I may have something to contribute that hasn't been mentioned. 

The good news is, you all have something in common, which is, an attraction to someone(s) fat. In the old days of Dimensions, that commonality brought a lot of people together, and I learned a lot, not only about people but about smaller subcultures within our community. I lost that over the years, especially as the website changed, and people here became more judgmental (me included). Focus on the common ground and learn more about each other, and keep an open mind when listening to the ideas & opinions of other people. It might just change your opinion on some things, and you might find out that you have more in common with your brothers & sisters here than you realize.


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## TwoSwords (Oct 4, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> The good news is, you all have something in common, which is, an attraction to someone(s) fat. In the old days of Dimensions, that commonality brought a lot of people together, and I learned a lot, not only about people but about smaller subcultures within our community. I lost that over the years, especially as the website changed, and people here became more judgmental (me included). Focus on the common ground and learn more about each other, and keep an open mind when listening to the ideas & opinions of other people. It might just change your opinion on some things, and you might find out that you have more in common with your brothers & sisters here than you realize.



As I was doing other stuff, it just occurred to me that maybe you didn't mean to make light of my life experiences, disregard, or even ignore them (though I have no evidence to back this possibility up.) If that should happen to be the case, I have one more thing to say.

You open your comment with the words "I think most people (especially those outside our world) looks at it as a guy & his girl who are in love. Whether she happens to be fat, chubby, plump or whatever is a sidenote to the story."

Now, the thing about new information is that it can often lead people to a larger understanding of various issues. At least, I know that's how it works for me. For this reason, if you have, in fact, read the entire comment that I posted last, and taken some time to think it over, I would suggest that, at the very least, my comment presents sufficient evidence that the way "most people look at it" is not universally correct. Therefore, the most rational approach would be to point this out, so that "most people" can correct the faults in their thought processes. Of course, this is a long and difficult process (getting a message of any sort to reach "most people" takes time and effort,) so why not get started today? Contact one person you know, and let them know about the suffering that social prejudices of this type cause, and have always caused. It may not accomplish much in the short term, but it's the right thing to do.


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## wrestlingguy (Oct 4, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> So in other words, my first guess was right. You've heard the testimonies of FAs, and just ignored them, as you're doing here. Good to know.



Your first guess was wrong, but feel free to pigeonhole me wherever it's convenient for you. Since you have not responded directly to any of the points I've raised, I hope you realize you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of.

I actually happen to be sympathetic to your situation, despite your claim to the contrary. Based on your previous response to my request that you post, if only for the potential benefit of others, I looked deeper into that post than you think.

It does sound like your struggle is real, and no one can negate that. Yes, I've spoken with literally hundreds of guys who would be considered FAs during my 20+ years around the community. Most (if not almost all) didn't seem to go through what you've described. It doesn't make it any less real for you, though I think because it's so personal in nature, you will likely find difficulty in getting other FAs to buy into what you'd like from them to lessen that burden. 

The one thing not mentioned until now, is that whatever you, me or anyone else has gone through, there are fat people of all genders who have experienced far worse, and continue to do so on a minute by minute daily basis, until their heads hit the pillow at night.


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## TwoSwords (Oct 4, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> Your first guess was wrong, but feel free to pigeonhole me wherever it's convenient for you. Since you have not responded directly to any of the points I've raised, I hope you realize you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of.



I'm happy to reply to anything that addresses something I said, as I will now be doing.



wrestlingguy said:


> It does sound like your struggle is real, and no one can negate that. Yes, I've spoken with literally hundreds of guys who would be considered FAs during my 20+ years around the community. Most (if not almost all) didn't seem to go through what you've described. It doesn't make it any less real for you, though I think because it's so personal in nature, you will likely find difficulty in getting other FAs to buy into what you'd like from them to lessen that burden.



That's actually quite a fair assessment of the nature and scope of the problem, with my fellow FAs and with everyone else. It is indeed a lousy situation, as you point out.



wrestlingguy said:


> The one thing not mentioned until now, is that whatever you, me or anyone else has gone through, there are fat people of all genders who have experienced far worse, and continue to do so on a minute by minute daily basis, until their heads hit the pillow at night.



I'm open to that possibility, as I said at the end of my outline of my problem. However, keep in mind that although my discomfort and alienation have been brobdingnagian, (and sympathy would be nice,) the thing I really want is a solution, for myself, and for everyone else who faces problems of this degree. *Everyone* else. Not some over others. I wouldn't accept a solution that involved me using someone else as essentially a scratching post, because that doesn't solve the problem; it just passes it to someone else. Any authentic solution to our problems will need to be a solution that takes all of us into account; FA and fat person alike. That's my point.

You also seem to be pointing in the direction of our degree of suffering having something to do with our rights as people, but since you haven't said this directly, and I don't want to make another stupid assumption, I'll hold off on addressing this yet.

P.S.: My initial response to you was only as a result of the extremely personal nature of my second-to-last comment, and the fact that you didn't seem to be addressing what I'd said. I hope you'll accept my apology for jumping the gun.


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