# FA Rejection



## patmcf (Mar 8, 2011)

Hello Dimensions,

Over the past few years I have embraced the fact that I am exclusively attracted to women of a particular size. I came to this understanding after several years of unwittingly dating thin women and enduring the emotional agony of not being able to preform sexually due to a lack of attraction. This was incredibly difficult and for those of you who do not understand, I would be thankful if you would try for my sake. Over the past two school years I have been seeing an intelligent, caring, and generally wonderful woman. Fortunately, she was also big and beautiful. We were truly compatible both sexually and emotionally, but tonight I had the most difficult moment I have ever had as a FA. She came over to my apartment and told me she was going for a gastric bypass sleeve this summer. 

She was, albeit somewhat nervous, pleased about the upcoming operation and explained to me that she was satifised with the way she looked right now; however, her problematic genetic history was the reason she needed to undergo the surgery. I began by agreeing with her and acknowledging that this procedure was necessary for her health, but it took me several minutes to let her know that this would complicate our relationship. I told her that I would no longer be attracted to her once she lost the weight and because I understood that the operation was the best thing for her, I would not be the best person to help her through it. 

I am an awful human being for putting a physical attraction on par with who this woman is on the inside. I wish I had a more broad spectrum of sexual attraction and then maybe I would not be such a fuck-up when it comes to relationships. My bedroom still smells like this lovely woman and when she stopped crying she told me, because she is a sweetheart, that she "understands." The only thing I can think about is what she said to me when I told her that I liked her at the size she is now: "All the times your called me beautiful, you were talking about all the things that I want to desperately get rid of." I know it may sound dramatic, but this makes me feel like a monster.

Sorry about this, I just do not have anyone else to talk to.


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## LalaCity (Mar 8, 2011)

If it makes you feel any better, yours is not the first thread addressing this issue -- plenty of other guys have wondered if they would still find their their girlfriends, whom they genuinely loved, sexually attractive if they lost weight. I understand your feelings of guilt, but at the end of the day, the sexual attraction that's hard-wired into your brain is not your "fault," nor anything you can willfully change about yourself.

There are no concrete answers -- you'll just have to be supportive and see how your feelings play out with time and whether your bond is strong enough to maintain a romantic relationship, even in the absence of physical attraction. That's a very tough and painful thing to contemplate, so you have my sympathy.

Keep in mind, also, that what you predict as the outcome of her weight loss might not be so emotionally devastating to you as you currently envision. You may, for example, find her still plenty attractive and curvy at a smaller size. She may not ever become _thin_, just a smaller version of her current self. Whatever happens, you seem to have the right attitude of understanding and support for her decision, no matter how you feel about it personally -- and that suggests that you truly do love her.


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## bigsexy920 (Mar 8, 2011)

You are right to be honest about how you feel. 

You are young now and in time looks and appearances change. They help us to initially attract people but they are not what keeps the person by your side when your hair falls out, and waist becomes bigger than your shoulders, you get cancer and have to go through chemo, or you have a open heart surgery and you have a scar from your chest to your belly button.

Hopefully one day you will find someone that you are willing to love even after all the changes in life come and go. And she will do the same for you.


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## Adrian (Mar 8, 2011)

Lalacity and Bigsexy, that was well stated.

I faced the same dilemma back in the early to mid-1970s. I could also see the pain when well meaning relatives gave their advice about her losing weight. Or, some friends saying how good she looked when she had lost twenty pounds, how felt felt better. My wife had an intestinal bypass back in June of 1972. I felt before loss weight that she was absolutely gorgeous. I also realized what she was saying about her mobility and ability to remain active -trying to keep up with four little daughters, that I could understand and empathize with. Over the next couple of years, I watched a truly gorgeous woman dissolve to just an attractive woman. I learned to love her more in other ways and our marriage survived. Hang in there, while her beauty might go down in your eyes, something else about her could make you feel as an over-all person and, she would be more attractive to you. If you love her, just hang in there and be the best man you can be to her!! Focus on what you can provide her life with... not what she is providing you. (NOTE)
At least your girlfriend is doing this at a time in history where these operations are safe. In 1972, one out of every three patients were dying from the operation, in the USA! Two months before my wife got here operation, Canada outlawed the operation!!
I guess I feel about the whole episode the way many ex-Marines feel about boot camp. I went through it and I am happy & proud about that but, I never... never want to endure that again!
NOTE:
That was my attitude when my son died, I buried my pain as best as I could do and did everything I possible could to make life bearable for my wife. What I did not realize at the time she was doing the same thing to comfort me.


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## musicman (Mar 8, 2011)

patmcf said:


> Over the past few years I have embraced the fact that I am exclusively attracted to women of a particular size. I came to this understanding after several years of unwittingly dating thin women and enduring the emotional agony of not being able to preform sexually due to a lack of attraction.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The only thing I can think about is what she said to me when I told her that I liked her at the size she is now: "All the times your called me beautiful, you were talking about all the things that I want to desperately get rid of." I know it may sound dramatic, but this makes me feel like a monster.




As LalaCity said, situations like yours have been discussed many times here, and they always produce huge disagreements among the responders, so get ready for a sh*tstorm. In fact, I'll probably be attacked for posting this, but here goes: 

I've been where you are now. Many years ago, my first wife had WLS, and I was very supportive. I didn't understand self-esteem and societal fat-hatred like I do now. I just wanted her to be happy. But her self-esteem was so badly damaged by decades of fat-hatred, from society and from her own parents, that she could not find happiness even with my support, and our marriage eventually failed. (In retrospect, our divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me. I eventually re-married, and now have a wonderful wife who accepts both herself and my preference.)

There are two things you should focus on, and they both point to the same conclusion. The first is what your girlfriend said, namely "All the times you called me beautiful, you were talking about all the things that I want to desperately get rid of." The second is that you told us that you can't perform with a thin woman. 

You're not a monster. You and your girlfriend are just deeply incompatible, and you should break it off. If you won't do it for your own happiness, do it for her. She deserves someone who can love her body, in addition to the rest of her. You are not that man, and she is not the woman you want.


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## LovelyLiz (Mar 8, 2011)

I do appreciate your honesty, patmcf, and I also really agree with what bigsexy said about the inevitability of physical changes in a mate if you're really in it for the long haul. 

For people that emphasize how a change in someone's body would definitely make it impossible to share a romantic bond, it just seems like those are people who aren't really interested in or available for a life-long type of romantic situation where bodily change of many kinds is inevitable. I'm not begrudging yours or anyone's attraction only to a specific body type, I absolutely think physical attraction is great and I need to feel attracted to any guy I'm with on a very bodily level. But unless the love does in some sense transcend that, at some point, the inevitable physical changes of age and life will sooner or later end things.

Also, I agree with Lala's point that sometimes we can't really predict how we will really respond to the physical changes in a specific person - especially if it's someone we love. Love is surprising, and in it I think sometimes we will even surprise ourselves with what we are and are not actually capable of.


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 8, 2011)

LalaCity said:


> If it makes you feel any better, yours is not the first thread addressing this issue -- plenty of other guys have wondered if they would still find their their girlfriends, whom they genuinely loved, sexually attractive if they lost weight. I understand your feelings of guilt, but at the end of the day, the sexual attraction that's hard-wired into your brain is not your "fault," nor anything you can willfully change about yourself.
> 
> There are no concrete answers -- you'll just have to be supportive and see how your feelings play out with time and whether your bond is strong enough to maintain a romantic relationship, even in the absence of physical attraction. That's a very tough and painful thing to contemplate, so you have my sympathy.
> 
> Keep in mind, also, that what you predict as the outcome of her weight loss might not be so emotionally devastating to you as you currently envision. You may, for example, find her still plenty attractive and curvy at a smaller size. She may not ever become _thin_, just a smaller version of her current self. Whatever happens, you seem to have the right attitude of understanding and support for her decision, no matter how you feel about it personally -- and that suggests that you truly do love her.



Nail. Hammer.

You don't have to beat yourself over it. You are the way you are, and she is the way she is. If she wasn't content with the parts you found beautiful, then this situation is really no ones fault. All you can do is support her through the whole thing. Maybe you won't be attracted to after all the changes, but you can still offer emotional support. That's all anyone can really ask for.

I'm sure you told her as best as you could. It's going to be a tough pill to swallow regardless, but what else can you really do?

LaLa also made another good point. Do you think you would still be attracted to her if she were smaller, but not small? I am not you, but that might be something to consider. A lot of people that get these procedures don't necessarily end up being thin.


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## LJ Rock (Mar 8, 2011)

All talk of your physical attractions and sexual hard-wiring aside, I think the best advice I can give you is: if you really care about this person the best thing you can do is be supportive of her and her decisions about her body. Be there for her when she needs someone to talk to, listen to her. Offer advice and feedback when she needs it, and be silent and listen to her when she doesn't. Then just take things one day at a time, see where your path leads you both. Undoubtedly your relationship will change in the future, as all relationships do. Her weight loss might change the way you look at her, and may even change the way you feel about her, BUT it may or may NOT change how much you care about her and want to be with her. 

From my experience (and that is all I am able to speak on, really) sexual attraction is so much more complex and encompasses so much more than just physical appearances. We don't always acknowledge it, but feeling *emotionally* attracted to a person has at least as much to do with being sexually compatible with them as being physically attracted to them does. Don't let your past experiences with "thinner" women scare you into believing that you couldn't have a meaningful and satisfying relationship with someone who has lost weight. Perhaps you weren't attracted to them because they just weren't a good fit for you, physically or emotionally. There are always people like that coming in and out of our lives, they serve to further teach us about what it is that we really DO want in a partner. 

It sounds like you are both very young and still figuring out who you both are. Maybe this woman is the one for you, and maybe she isn't. You won't know if you don't hang in there and give it your all. As I said, if this girl really means something to you then you owe it to her and to yourself to try. Maybe things will work out for you two, and maybe not - this is a chance we all must take anytime we are in a relationship. If in your heart of hearts you really don't feel that you can hang in there with her while she goes through this life change, then maybe you just aren't ready to commit yourself on so deep a level yet and need to just move on.


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

bigsexy920 said:


> You are right to be honest about how you feel.
> 
> You are young now and in time looks and appearances change. They help us to initially attract people but they are not what keeps the person by your side when your hair falls out, and waist becomes bigger than your shoulders, you get cancer and have to go through chemo, or you have a open heart surgery and you have a scar from your chest to your belly button.
> 
> Hopefully one day you will find someone that you are willing to love even after all the changes in life come and go. And she will do the same for you.



Changes that cannot be helped / due to aging / illness are an emotional world away from "I hate all the things about me that you love and I want to get rid of all of them ASAP." (to paraphrase).

It's like comparing apples to spanners.


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

patmcf said:


> Hello Dimensions,
> 
> Over the past few years I have embraced the fact that I am exclusively attracted to women of a particular size. I came to this understanding after several years of unwittingly dating thin women and enduring the emotional agony of not being able to preform sexually due to a lack of attraction. This was incredibly difficult and for those of you who do not understand, I would be thankful if you would try for my sake. Over the past two school years I have been seeing an intelligent, caring, and generally wonderful woman. Fortunately, she was also big and beautiful. We were truly compatible both sexually and emotionally, but tonight I had the most difficult moment I have ever had as a FA. She came over to my apartment and told me she was going for a gastric bypass sleeve this summer.
> 
> ...



^I've been there too, mate (apart from the WLS aspect, my ex went the VLC route)
*
It's not your fault*, and there really is nothing you can do (IMO) to "fix" the conflict between your sexuality and her body ambition.

If she chooses to go through with the WLS, I'd advise you to gently end the relationship, cos if you are the hard-wired FA you describe yourself to be it will probably be very painful / conflicting for (both of) you as she shrinks. And that pain /conflict will probably not go away.

YOU ARE NOT A MONSTER.
Yes, hard-wired FAs do have a limited range of people we are attracted to, and almost all of those people are very strongly motivated to stop being that ASAP. It sucks. But it doesn't mean you're a bad person. Hell, you were honest, open, straightforward and as supportive of her as you could manage. You're a GOOD person. You're just a very unlucky person:
a) - that you got born / made an FA
b) - in a time / culture when: although there are more BBWs in the world than ever, most of them hatehatehate being BBWs more than ever.
c) - there is a multi-billion dollar *misery-industry* that pervades almost all aspects of acedemia / health provision / gov't / media that is parasitic on body-hatred, and offers various mainly useless and often harmful methods of (almost always temporary) modification.

It sucks ass, it's true. Maybe if you're lucky you'll meet a BBW who's happy and wants to stay that way, maybe not. In the meantime, don't hate yourself for being FA.
Despite all the people who will attack you for it.
*You can no more help being FA than you can help how tall you are, or what colour your eyes are.*

Also, don't hate yourself for wanting a romantic relationship that is sexually active. Almost everybody wants this. Lots of people will dedicate lots of time trying to tell you that sexless relationships are all great and fulfilling and wonderful. That's the same mindest that would try and push gay people into marrying members of the opposite sex. Pay them no mind. *There is nothing wrong with wanting a lover that you are attracted to and can have sex with - it's human.*


And finally:
Re: WLS being "best for her health" may not be the case. It's risky to say the least. I refer you to the WLS controversy board for more info and discussion. Also - google things such as:
gastric bypass beri-beri, vitamin deficiency.

Or - *you may want to spare yourself all that and remain in more comfortable ignorance.* In my experience you can do loads of research about X and present it on a silver platter to someone you care about (who's choosing to do X), and they won't even look at it. 
Cos they want X sooooooooo badly.
And let's face it, if someone's going to suffer through WLS and side-effects, they do want it very, very badly.
*
You may be better off just accepting that this is the path she's chosen, wish her the best of luck and try to move on with your life.*


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## bigsexy920 (Mar 8, 2011)

Physical changes are just that, regardless of the reasons behind them.... 

If I mention in my 20's Im not attracted to bald men and the man i marry becomes bald , should i then not want to be with him anymore? OR if i like a guy thats bald and he hates it... to the point that he wears a horrible hair piece, I should dump him..... again its all physical. So for me its a true comparison. 

I agree attraction is attraction. But I will restate my case... all the physical things you fall in love with physically when you are young whether you like them or or not WILL change. So again, unless you love something more about their body-face you will be in for a tough time as the years go on. 

And BTW - when i was in my 20;s hated my body, im not in my 40's and not nearly as good looking as i was then BUT i love my body now AND Ive had WLS AND im STILL FAT ..... So had a man been with me while i was going through it he would still have his fat woman that is sexy and happy with her body now.... 



joswitch said:


> Changes that cannot be helped / due to aging / illness are an emotional world away from "I hate all the things about me that you love and I want to get rid of all of them ASAP." (to paraphrase).
> 
> It's like comparing apples to spanners.


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## Shosh (Mar 8, 2011)

bigsexy920 said:


> Physical changes are just that, regardless of the reasons behind them....
> 
> If I mention in my 20's Im not attracted to bald men and the man i marry becomes bald , should i then not want to be with him anymore? OR if i like a guy thats bald and he hates it... to the point that he wears a horrible hair piece, I should dump him..... again its all physical. So for me its a true comparison.
> 
> ...



Not nearly as good looking?
Berna you are a beautiful woman.

I look at your photos and think how stunning you are.

I guess we sometimes do not see what others do.


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

bigsexy920 said:


> Physical changes are just that, regardless of the reasons behind them....



No. No. Nononononono. The reasons are ALL important!

- You missed the important point "an *EMOTIONAL* world away from". It's about the feelings behind WHY someone is *deliberately* changing. It's about irreconcilable differences. Someone who hates being fat so much they are prepared to risk their own life and health to change it, will not be happy being fat. How can any FA, in good conscience stay with that person? 

When she's fat you feel like shit because you are attracted to what makes her unhappy. She (may) feel objectified / creeped out because in her mind the fat is NOT even a part of her. It's just unwanted baggage, to her.

When she's thin you feel like shit because you are NOT attracted to what makes her happy. She (may)feel rejected because in her mind "thin her" is the only true real her.


SNAFU

It's ulcers and tears and sleepless nights and worse for both parties. And it's all about *incompatible feelings*.






> If I mention in my 20's Im not attracted to bald men and the man i marry becomes bald , should i then not want to be with him anymore? OR if i like a guy thats bald and he hates it... to the point that he wears a horrible hair piece, I should dump him..... again its all physical. So for me its a true comparison.
> 
> I agree attraction is attraction. But I will restate my case... all the physical things you fall in love with physically when you are young whether you like them or or not WILL change. So again, unless you love something more about their body-face you will be in for a tough time as the years go on.



And all this "it's just the same as aging" just isn't true.
It gets waved around on here every time this comes up.
Sorry, it's just flat out wrong.

Do you know anyone who deliberately ages?
Do you know anyone who is all Whoo-Hooo! about the depredations of aging?
Do you know anyone who hateshateshates looking young?
Do you know anyone who is surrounded by friends and family and praised to high heaven with "Look how old and grey* you look!"??
Do you know anyone who deliberately sets out to do 20years worth of aging in 6 months**? 
Do you think it's easier to adjust to a gradual (over 20 or 30 years) change or one that occurs in a few months?

(*I started going grey when I was 20 and it's not stopped.
**Cos that's how fast someone can completely change themselves almost beyond recongnition, if they put their mind to it and take enough risks)



> And BTW - when i was in my 20;s hated my body, im not in my 40's and not nearly as good looking as i was then BUT i love my body now AND Ive had WLS AND im STILL FAT ..... So had a man been with me while i was going through it he would still have his fat woman that is sexy and happy with her body now....



Maybe, if he wasn't FA-by-orientation. Bisizual guy would've probably been fine. FA by preference would've managed, maybe.

Personally, I am FA-by-orientation, I discovered this limit in me, when the constant aching sense of loss and inner conflict gave me ulcers (never had those before. Damn.) and the rest! within months of my then gf beginning to starve and dramatically shrink. 

The idea of waiting and seeing if maybe your best beloved makes a 180 change of mind and body while you're having a slow-motion mental and physical meltdown = not a cunning plan. Especially if you always lose when you gamble (me).

Me: I'm on the look-out for BBWs who are already happy or even OKish with being BBWs.


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

To sum up:

Knowing that the fullness of love you have to offer someone causes them pain, because they hate themselves, is no way to live. For anyone.


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## Jes (Mar 8, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Knowing that the fullness of love you have to offer someone .



Is the 'fullness of love' size-based in this case? Isn't that what's being offered?


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 8, 2011)

I see this kind of advise being handed out -- don't love everything about her? LEAVE HER!!! ... and wonder ... what guarantee does he have that the next BBW of his dreams will be any more compatible with him? How does he know that the problem doesn't reside with HIM, and how can he address this very important question so that it doesn't carry forth into the next relationship?

I don't know if he should leave her. I put myself in her place and think, it may be the kindest thing, if he can't come to terms with the changes that she is going to make.

But then, suck though it may, leaving is often a process that unfolds over time, not an in-the-moment make or break situation. 

She does deserve his honesty, and his frank expression of doubt and concern. She can then make her own informed decisions. It won't be easy for him to share his feelings with her. They aren't loving, gushy, and easy to hear. Most people would rather gnaw off their own arms than be that level of honest with someone they love -- but then, most people also fool themselves that it's about sparing a loved one's feelings rather than their own discomfort with sharing them. 

Maybe he also needs to work on his own issues, if there are any mouldering underneath the "I'm a staunch FA and I neeeed me a fat girl" rationale. That may actually be the case; if so, then no amount of additional soul-searching is going to erase that fact. But ... what if there's more to it than that? What if that mindset is actually superimposed over other relationship/committment issues?

Who truly expects to remain flamingly, hopelessly, yearningly, heart-achingly in lust with his/her partner? Is that ever realistic? 

Maybe she's not horrified by her weight; perhaps she has health concerns. Maybe she *is* horrified by it but completely happy and comfortable that *he* loves her fat body (while still wishing to change the size). It's not so clear-cut "She hates that part of herself that you looooove and she thinks you're a freak, dude." That black 'n white thinking, coupled with non-vested internet advise about making a major decision that has consequences for him and for her, sets my teeth on edge.


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

Jes said:


> Is the 'fullness of love' size-based in this case? Isn't that what's being offered?



Fullness as in: "including your sexuality as well".

Which of course is one source of the pain / conflict, with the beloved's desire to transform themselves being the other source.

---------

Let me just head off the usual suspects at this point:

Don't bother trying to deconstruct this as "not real love" or whatever. If it wasn't real love it wouldn't be so bloody exquisitely painful to go through. It'd just be a case of "Oh, getting thinner? Bye then." And it's not. Not even close.

Also: don't bother trying to draw some "moral" comparator with whatever. I'm talking about FEELINGS. You don't get to plan, or choose how you feel. No choice about it. You deal with your feelings and treat those you love the best you can (yes, that may mean letting them go their own separate way), and that's all you can do.

Also, also: FAs-by-orientation are very well aware that lotsandlotsandlotsandlots of BBWs want to be loved DESPITE their size and are turned-off by the idea of being desired (in part) for their size. WE KNOW. WE GOT THE MEMO. 
Those BBWs have options, they can try to transform themselves and/or go find someone else ( a bisizual for instance). FAs-by-orientation don't have those options, we're stuck being what we are. Sucks.


Please, spare us the rehearsal of those three shibboleths. Thanks.


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## patmcf (Mar 8, 2011)

Update:

We talked today and she was kind enough to give me a second chance. While I admit that I love her how she is right now, I genuinely think that this is the best thing for her and will not let it be the end of our relationship. 

Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I really appreciate it.


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## FatAndProud (Mar 8, 2011)

I am eating some french fries as I read this thread.

That is all.


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## superodalisque (Mar 8, 2011)

bigsexy920 said:


> You are right to be honest about how you feel.
> 
> You are young now and in time looks and appearances change. They help us to initially attract people but they are not what keeps the person by your side when your hair falls out, and waist becomes bigger than your shoulders, you get cancer and have to go through chemo, or you have a open heart surgery and you have a scar from your chest to your belly button.
> 
> Hopefully one day you will find someone that you are willing to love even after all the changes in life come and go. And she will do the same for you.



exactly, when its really love nothing can change it. infatuations come and go. pun intended its when you wouldn't consider leaving someone no matter what the changes are that you know its truly real. so if something like weight can change it its much better to know now and move on so you can one day find something unchangeable. don't kick yourself for not quite being there yet. its not the attraction to a fat person thats the issue. being sexually attracted to a fat person isn't something to kvetch about. the issue is whether the person you are with is more of a short term infatuation than a life partner/soulmate.


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## bigsexy920 (Mar 8, 2011)

Joswitch, 

I really do understand what you are saying . I just think differently. I think as a rule we as a society put to much emphasis on looks regardless of preference. I think this is why SO many relationships fail we fall for the look of a person rather than looking at the person as a whole. I'm guilty of the same thing choosing looks over substance. 

Falling in love with someone is falling in love with ALL of them even their insecurities. The best thing that ever happened to me was being with a man that loved me for all the things I didn't love about my self. Our relationship ended but not because of my weight... and he knew me at my smallest and my largest. 

Really all Im trying to say is, "stop making it all about looks and attraction, cause there is more to it than just that"


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## superodalisque (Mar 8, 2011)

bigsexy920 said:


> Joswitch,
> 
> I really do understand what you are saying . I just think differently. I think as a rule we as a society put to much emphasis on looks regardless of preference. I think this is why SO many relationships fail we fall for the look of a person rather than looking at the person as a whole. I'm guilty of the same thing choosing looks over substance.
> 
> ...



yeah that, and besides who said you couldn't or shouldn't fall in love with a fat person anyway?


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

bigsexy920 said:


> Joswitch,
> 
> I really do understand what you are saying . I just think differently. I think as a rule we as a society put to much emphasis on looks regardless of preference. I think this is why SO many relationships fail we fall for the look of a person rather than looking at the person as a whole. I'm guilty of the same thing choosing looks over substance.
> 
> Falling in love with someone is falling in love with ALL of them



Yep. ALL of them. Not just the 50% of themselves that they personally self-identify with.



> even their insecurities. The best thing that ever happened to me was being with a man that loved me for all the things I didn't love about my self. Our relationship ended but not because of my weight... and he knew me at my smallest and my largest.
> 
> Really all Im trying to say is, "*stop making it all about looks and attraction, cause there is more to it than just that"*



^Which was, of course, *my point exactly*.

I sincerely hope that you will never have any clue what it's like to hold someone in your arms - who previously used to fill those arms - and feel them shrinking. I hope you never have to fight down your innermost instincts that tell you they're wasting away / dying. 
And I hope you never have to deal with the mind-fucking cognitive dissonance of trying to deal with what your most quintessential animal self is mourning, while they and all their friends and family are very loudly and publicly thrilled about it. 
Nor having to fight down your ire when you hear that their fat-hating relative - who spent all their life putting them down - is full of praise for them, praise which was entirely absent when they got their degree and got a job.

Not to mention the tearing conflict between love and lust.

"looks"? "attraction"? don't even get close to covering the depth and strength of FEELING I'm talking about here.


Once upon a time there was a relationship "deal" it was:
- "I'll try and look good for you if you love me"
that^ deal was found to be BAD and times moved on to

- "Love me as you find me, and accept my natural, gradual changes"
^which seemed fairly sound to me, but that too was turned over in favour of the current "deal" which is:

-"Love me as whatever I choose to change myself into, whatsoever that may be, no matter how often, how extremely or suddenly I change myself. Regardless of how that impacts the bond between us."
^which I, personally find to be a bit of a head-fuck.
And I know a fair few other people do too.

The best some of us can manage when faced with the rapid, extreme transformations that stem from that is to bow out in an honest, loving and respectful parting of the ways.
This does not make us bad or evil people.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it's some of the most loving people out there that can't deal with it. After all, if you didn't love someone that much - it wouldn't twist you all up inside when they transform.


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm not going to pull punches and coddle you and say "oh that's okay...that's how you feel". Bullshit. Yeah sure it's how you feel, but god forbid the woman loses a leg or gets a disease or something. If you love someone, you love them through good or bad. Maybe if you lose your hair or some other such physical appearance based thing in you changes, I guess she should dump you and find someone who fits that need for her who has a full head of hair, physical appearance she wants, etc. Maybe you didnt really "love" her in the first place.


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## Jes (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> I sincerely hope that you will never have any clue what it's like to hold someone in your arms - who previously used to fill those arms - and feel them shrinking. I hope you never have to fight down your innermost instincts that tell you they're wasting away / dying.
> .



I'm very sorry that your beloved died of cancer in your arms, Joswitch. That must have been very, very difficult for you. Cancer is horrible and death is devastating. No wonder you are so upset.


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I'm not going to pull punches and coddle you and say "oh that's okay...that's how you feel". Bullshit. Yeah sure it's how you feel, but god forbid the woman loses a leg or gets a disease or something.



Wrong.

There is a WORLD of difference between what someone chooses to do deliberately and is overjoyed by, vs. what they suffer by illness or accident.

If they chose it then you find yourself in internal conflict and also a clash between your feelings and theirs (see above, I'm not explaining it all again).
If it's "shit happens". There is little to no internal conflict and certainly no clash between your feelings and theirs. You both want them to get better / recover. You're in it together.



> If you love someone, you love them through good or bad.



What if they deliberately choose "bad"? What if they LOVE "bad"? What if "bad" is more important to them than anything else?



> Maybe if you lose your hair or some other such physical appearance based thing in you changes, I guess she should dump you and find someone who fits that need for her who has a full head of hair, physical appearance she wants, etc.



^I don't know anyone who CHOOSES to go bald. Certainly I don't know anyone whose partner loves their hair choosing to shave it all off.

How about if I CHOSE to change sex? Do you think she should be obligated to remain in the relationship?



> Maybe you didnt really "love" her in the first place.



Wrong again. 

Oh, this is getting dull now.


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Wrong.
> 
> There is a WORLD of difference between what someone chooses to do deliberately and is overjoyed by, vs. what they suffer by illness or accident.
> 
> ...



^^^
none of that is even worth an extended comment on


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## Tracyarts (Mar 9, 2011)

" I sincerely hope that you will never have any clue what it's like to hold someone in your arms - who previously used to fill those arms - and feel them shrinking. "

What if the fat that fills those arms (and it's really just about the fat, no matter how much flowery feelings bullshit you try and shovel onto it) is destroying them? What if it's killing their body with obesity caused or exacerbated health problems? What if it's shrinking their world down by taking away their mobility and ability to fully participate in life? What if it's slowly grinding away at their very spirit day after day after day because of all the random hardships and challenges that living in a fat body causes? What if it's holding back their dreams and aspirations because society in general doesn't "get" size acceptance and won't anytime soon? What if it's just gotten old and they want something different? 

Is your need for them to fill your arms greater than their need to have the best life that they can? Is the gratification you get from their fatness more important than the gratification they get from having the best life that they can? 

You make it all about you and your feelings and your loss of the precious, precious poundage that you need to fill your arms with. But in reality it has nothing to do with you because your mind and spirit is not inhabiting that body, and you're not having to navigate life through it. Fat women were not put on this Earth to fill your arms. Fat women were put on this Earth to live their lives the best that they can. Sometimes that means that they have to become less fat, or no longer fat at all. 

I'm sorry if that's such a downer, but it's reality. And you're going to have to accept it and make peace with it. That means cutting fat women enough slack to allow them to be human inside a long term relationship, or sticking to NSA relationships and fantasy fodder only. 

Tracy


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 9, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I'm not going to pull punches and coddle you and say "oh that's okay...that's how you feel". Bullshit. Yeah sure it's how you feel, but god forbid the woman loses a leg or gets a disease or something. If you love someone, you love them through good or bad. Maybe if you lose your hair or some other such physical appearance based thing in you changes, I guess she should dump you and find someone who fits that need for her who has a full head of hair, physical appearance she wants, etc. Maybe you didnt really "love" her in the first place.


 
Much as I'm loathe to admit it, I can somewhat see his point (although I'm still struggling to understand the difference between choosing weight loss as a means of improving one's health vs. losing weight due to an illness ... how does one's libido differentiate between the two?). 

I also have very strong feelings about what the term 'love' means, but I don't believe that my definition is all-encompassing. I believe that I love my husband enough to accept any physical changes that may come about due to age, illness, etc ... but I know that what I feel for him is nothing even remotely close to how I feel about my son, whom I would love unreservedly under any circumstances. My husband could choose to do things that would effectively destroy my love for him. Physical changes aren't likely a part of that, but who is to say that my 'litmus test' is morally superior to yours, Jo's, or anyone elses? 

I can't readily identify with much of what Jo says, but this much I do agree with: If he finds that he cannot live with changes made by his partner, he's under no obligation to remain miserably coupled (and if he's not happy, she's not going to be either). Ending the relationship graciously, kindly, and quickly is (in my opinion) a much better alternative for both of them. If Jo feels that he cannot overcome the physical changes that occur with his partners' weight loss, I don't think any amount of judgment on our part is going to impact something about himself that he likely has no control over anyway. At least with him, you know upfront what you are getting into. I can respect that.

Much as I do not respect the snarky, vicious, seethingly angry way he expresses himself.


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## KHayes666 (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> I sincerely hope that you will never have any clue what it's like to hold someone in your arms - who previously used to fill those arms - and feel them shrinking. I hope you never have to fight down your innermost instincts that tell you they're wasting away / dying.



Just so there's no confusion. Did your lover die of cancer or are you just upset she lost weight?


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> I can't readily identify with much of what Jo says, but this much I do agree with: If he finds that he cannot live with changes made by his partner, he's under no obligation to remain miserably coupled (and if he's not happy, she's not going to be either). Ending the relationship graciously, kindly, and quickly is (in my opinion) a much better alternative for both of them. If Jo feels that he cannot overcome the physical changes that occur with his partners' weight loss, I don't think any amount of judgment on our part is going to impact something about himself that he likely has no control over anyway. At least with him, you know upfront what you are getting into. I can respect that.
> 
> Much as I do not respect the snarky, vicious, seethingly angry way he expresses himself.



Do do agree with you as far as ending things if he is that miserable, but I just cant stand how some people say how much they love someone, but as soon as the other person changes in some way or expresses a desire to change...they pout like a child.


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## snuggletiger (Mar 9, 2011)

At some point you'd hope that the content of character and the emotional bond between the two people would overshadow superficial appearance. IMO, I have had BBW friends that have undergone WLS. Has how I felt about them diminished. The answer is no, because to me their health is more important. Dead bodies don't hug back.


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

Tracyarts said:


> *snip*
> 
> You make it all about you and your feelings and your loss *snip* But in reality it has nothing to do with you...



Let me just *pop* your righteous bubble there. This thread is about FA feelings. The BBW partner didn't come here to ask advice, the FA did.

The OP came here to speak to and hear from others who might have been in his shoes and understand how he feels. So he wouldn't feel so bloody alone with his feelings. That's what this thread is about.

FA feelings that have to do with their partner choosing to lose, are "to do with" that partner's actions, for as long as they are with that partner.

*Of course, those feelings don't entitle that FA to any consideration or change-of-plan from their partner, at all. *Sweet FA, in fact.

But FAs *are* entitled to own and express their feelings just like anyone else, including.... BBWs...

Even when those feelings may be inconvenient, upsetting or annoying e.g. when BBWs read about them on a web-board.

Of course, *people are not obligated to validate FA's feelings*, indeed they may feel free to attempt to invalidate, belittle and shame FAs for expressing those feelings. Just like in this thread for instance. 

In turn *FAs are not obligated to hang their heads in shame,* nor to slink away, cowed and dejected when people do their utmost to invalidate and shame them. FAs are entitled, just like anyone else, to blow off all such efforts to supress their freedom of emotional expression.



> because your mind and spirit is not inhabiting that body, and you're not having to navigate life through it. Fat women were not put on this Earth to fill your arms. Fat women were put on this Earth to live their lives the best that they can. Sometimes that means that they have to become less fat, or no longer fat at all.
> Sometimes that means that they have to become less fat, or no longer fat at all.



Yeah. And they're entitled CHOOSE to do that, OF COURSE. Equally, if an FA finds their heart, mind and body gets all fucked up by being too close to someone who makes that choice - then that FA is entitled to CHOOSE to cease being *that* close to that person.

Both parties are free to do what they want / need (any old time). Neither is free to subsume the feelings of the other.

*Freedom of choice and self-determination is for both parties in a relationship!*

Not just the half you happen to sympathise with. 



> I'm sorry if that's such a downer, but it's reality. And you're going to have to accept it and make peace with it. That means cutting fat women enough slack to allow them *to be human inside a long term relationship,*



^Amazingly, "being human" (good TV show, btw) does not oblige you to transform your body beyond recognition. But of course you can CHOOSE to do that. And that's your CHOICE. But it's not obligatory, nor inevitable.

I was in a relationship with a BBW* for years - whose weight did go up and down in a +/- 40lb range or so, naturally / due to stress etc. And that didn't create any of the feelings I struggled with when I dated someone who went for the big lose-half-my-body-weight transform.(*mid-size by DIMs standards, i.e. mid/high 200s and tall, as in fact most of my LTRs have been)

Also, *NO-ONE is ENTITLED to (be inside) a relationship.* Sorry. No matter how much your personal system of morality dictates that Mr. X is obliged to continue physically loving you - regardless of your chosen extreme transformations - Mr. X is NOT in fact under any such obligation. Just as you are under no obligation to stay the same.




> or sticking to NSA relationships and fantasy fodder only.
> 
> Tracy



Well, pardon me if I reject and refuse your attempt to proscribe, prescript and police my love-life from the faux high-ground of your personal morality. KMA on that one.

My policy since the painful break-up with my ex-who-wanted-to-transform has been to let people know up front that I don't / won't date anyone who wants to go for extreme weight-loss. This makes it hard to date, given the all pervasive fat-hate-hysteria. Indeed the very next BBW I was with immediately declared her intention to do the very same thing, so that was a no-no.

If I had a tenner for every time I've heard: "I just wanna be a size 16!" well, I'd have quite a lot of tenners.


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

KHayes666 said:


> Just so there's no confusion. Did your lover die of cancer or are you just upset she lost weight?



Ugh. No she didn't die of cancer. Jes made that up. In an effort at shaming. Which was real big of her.

I was *describing* my feelings at the time.
Feelings can be irrational.

Although! a number of people *did in fact die* on the exact same VLCD that my ex was on. That's not some SA propaganda, that's the findings of the official coroner in at least two cases. So my feelings in this case weren't all that irrational / unfounded.


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

snuggletiger said:


> At some point you'd hope that the content of character and the emotional bond between the two people would overshadow superficial appearance. IMO, I have had BBW friends that have undergone WLS. Has how I felt about them diminished. The answer is no, because to me their health is more important. Dead bodies don't hug back.



Funny you should mention that - WLS has *four-times* the on-the-operating-table death-rate as quadruple bypass surgery. WLS promoters tend not to mention that. And that's NOT including post surgery deaths from short- and long-term complications.

I remember reading a heart breaking story about a lady who died in theatre getting WLS. Leaving a loving husband and a child bereft. She weighed 224lbs, btw.

WLS does not = a magic fix. Nor is it necessarily "healthy".

As for emotional bonds, my ex and I remain good friends.
There's a big difference between friends and lovers.
Despite what Disney tells you, love between adults DOES have a strong physical component, for most people.


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

well fuck...i guess according to Joswich, only FA's should be allow to enter this thread to give their opinion. The mods ought to get on blocking out anyone who isnt just an FA!!


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## Jes (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Ugh. No she didn't die of cancer. Jes made that up. In an effort at shaming. Which was real big of her.
> .



what?? well then it wasn't cancer, but i don't apologize for telling you i felt sorry that your lover wasted away and died in your arms. that is an awful thing to read and we should all try to remember that, here.


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

Rowan said:


> well fuck...i guess according to Joswich, only FA's should be allow to enter this thread to give their opinion. The mods ought to get on blocking out anyone who isnt just an FA!!



Oh, wait, I'm sure I covered that already...


"_Of course, people are not obligated to validate FA's feelings, indeed they may feel free to attempt to invalidate, belittle and shame FAs for expressing those feelings. Just like in this thread for instance. _"


Yes, yes I did...

Who's pouting now, eh?


My work here is done, I believe.


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> This thread is about FA feelings. The BBW partner didn't come here to ask advice, the FA did.
> 
> The OP came here to speak to and hear from others who might have been in his shoes and understand how he feels. So he wouldn't feel so bloody alone with his feelings. That's what this thread is about.



Not pouting...just waiting for you to grow up.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Funny you should mention that - WLS has *four-times* the on-the-operating-table death-rate as quadruple bypass surgery. WLS promoters tend not to mention that. And that's NOT including post surgery deaths from short- and long-term complications.
> 
> I remember reading a heart breaking story about a lady who died in theatre getting WLS. Leaving a loving husband and a child bereft. She weighed 224lbs, btw.
> 
> ...


 
This is flat out untrue.

No matter how you spin the statistics, it absolutely doesn't add up.

The "complications" death rate (i.e., death on the operating table or shortly thereafter) for WLS is, depending on the surgeon and what site you visit, anywhere between 1 in 200 to 1 in 350. 

The "complications" death rate, using the same criteria for quadruple bypass, is anywhere from 2-8%. 

Where did you "pull" your statistics from, Jo?


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## KHayes666 (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Ugh. No she didn't die of cancer. Jes made that up. In an effort at shaming. Which was real big of her.
> 
> I was *describing* my feelings at the time.
> Feelings can be irrational.
> ...



She survived didn't she? Why break up with her for just losing weight.


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

Ugh. I already covered that, Hayes. Go back and read the thread, if you're actually interested, rather than just dropping by for a bit of impromptu white knighting.


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## KHayes666 (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Ugh. I already covered that, Hayes. Go back and read the thread, if you're actually interested, rather than just dropping by for a bit of impromptu white knighting.



Nah nah nah.....white knighting is when guys attack other guys then bow down to anyone with a vagina. I bow down to no one so obviously I'm no white knight.

It just seems to me that you're saying that WLS is the DEVIL! and that anyone who gets it isn't the same person as they were before.

I've had friends who've had WLS and they're the same people, only smaller.


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## CastingPearls (Mar 9, 2011)

Rowan said:


> well fuck...i guess according to Joswich, only FA's should be allow to enter this thread to give their opinion. The mods ought to get on blocking out anyone who isnt just an FA!!


If this thread were on the FA forum then mods might consider it but it's on the Main Dimensions forum open to everyone. I think the OP wanted input from everyone, not just FAs but he can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Blackjack (Mar 9, 2011)

Thank you, jos, for sweeping into the thread and once again turning it to serve your self-aggrandizing crusade of anti-WLS, whether or not that's relevant to the topic at hand.


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## CastingPearls (Mar 9, 2011)

KHayes666 said:


> I've had friends who've had WLS and they're the same people, only smaller.



Bully for you, but people can and do change after significant weight-loss be it WLS or another method.

I did.


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## KHayes666 (Mar 9, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Bully for you, but people can and do change after significant weight-loss be it WLS or another method.
> 
> I did.



Not saying they won't.

Saying that some people still listen to the same music, have the same opinions on philosophy and can watch movies with you.....get the point?


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 9, 2011)

For FA/FFAs who feel the same way that Joswitch does, I'm curious about a point that he made (and I know that he'll stobbornly refuse to answer my question himself).

He said that for him, someone who chooses to lose weight is categorized differently than someone who loses it due to illness/aging. He implied that he'd leave the former, and would stick by the latter. But part of his argument was also that he'd leave the person who chose this route because he could no longer be attracted to her.

This made me wonder if others make this differentiation, and if so, how you can remain attracted to someone who loses weight via illness vs. a concerted effort to do so. To me, the underlying reason for staying with the ill person would be pity rather than love. Or am I missing something?

I'd really like to see this point clarified more, in terms of a long-term relationship and weight loss that didn't happen by choice.


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## CastingPearls (Mar 9, 2011)

KHayes666 said:


> Not saying they won't.
> 
> Saying that some people still listen to the same music, have the same opinions on philosophy and can watch movies with you.....get the point?


And I'm saying as someone who went through it and didn't OBSERVE it as YOU did, many DO change in ALL those ways. GET MY POINT?


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## cinnamitch (Mar 9, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> This is flat out untrue.
> 
> No matter how you spin the statistics, it absolutely doesn't add up.
> 
> ...



You know it would almost be worth an infraction for me to tell you where he pulled it from


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## KHayes666 (Mar 9, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> For FA/FFAs who feel the same way that Joswitch does, I'm curious about a point that he made (and I know that he'll stobbornly refuse to answer my question himself).
> 
> He said that for him, someone who chooses to lose weight is categorized differently than someone who loses it due to illness/aging. He implied that he'd leave the former, and would stick by the latter. But part of his argument was also that he'd leave the person who chose this route because he could no longer be attracted to her.
> 
> ...



never mind.....Traci's asking for people who feel the same as Jos does in terms of "looks first". Delete this post


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## Webmaster (Mar 9, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> ...This made me wonder if others make this differentiation, and if so, how you can remain attracted to someone who loses weight via illness vs. a concerted effort to do so. To me, the underlying reason for staying with the ill person would be pity rather than love. Or am I missing something?...



I can only speak for myself, but I do see a difference between someone who loses weight via illness or age, and someone who makes a drastic effort. For me, I have found that weight loss makes no difference in attraction at all, so pity certainly never entered the scene. However, if someone actively decides to no longer be the total package -- mind, body and soul -- that I signed up for, then I might feel alienation. Not so much for the physical aspect, but for the fact that a drastic change was made whether or not the partner agreed.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 9, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I do see a difference between someone who loses weight via illness or age, and someone who makes a drastic effort. *For me, I have found that weight loss makes no difference in attraction at all*, so pity certainly never entered the scene. However, if someone actively decides to no longer be the total package -- mind, body and soul -- that I signed up for, then I might feel alienation. Not so much for the physical aspect, but for the fact that a drastic change was made whether or not the partner agreed.


 
I understand this perfectly when factoring in the sentence I've highlighted above.

But what about people who do believe that a partners' weight loss affects his/her libido? I guess what I'm asking is, CAN there be a differentiation? And if so, what motivates it?


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## snuggletiger (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Funny you should mention that - WLS has *four-t
> 
> WLS does not = a magic fix. Nor is it necessarily "healthy".
> 
> ...


*

Physical attraction does play a big part in Love, however I don't think its everything. Because looks fade, men and women age. Thats life. If all you have is just physical attraction, good for you but there has to be more then being shallow.*


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## joswitch (Mar 9, 2011)

snuggletiger said:


> Physical attraction does play a big part in Love, however I don't think its everything. Because looks fade, men and women age. Thats life.



It's not the same as aging. Not even close. I believe that HAS already been mentioned like 80million times. Pay attention. FFS!



> If all you have is just physical attraction, good for you but there has to be more then *being shallow*.



^And this is why I should just never bother trying to explain the depth, or the emotional component / consequences of what can happen in this situation.

No-one's goddamn interested in how it actually feels to go through this, cos they've already made up their minds - that the physical connection between two lovers is a "shallow" thing. 

Good luck trying to live out that body-negative, sexless, Disneyland, romance novel fantasy of love IRL.


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## snuggletiger (Mar 9, 2011)

*applause*


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## KHayes666 (Mar 9, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Good luck trying to live out that body-negative, sexless, Disneyland, romance novel fantasy of love IRL.



Sexless? I can personally vouch that sex is amazing regardless of size lol


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> If this thread were on the FA forum then mods might consider it but it's on the Main Dimensions forum open to everyone. I think the OP wanted input from everyone, not just FAs but he can correct me if I'm wrong.



I agree...and that's why I was being sarcastic about only FA's answering. lol
But yeah...if no bbw's opinions were wanted, it should have been on just the FA board and a request that only FA's answer.


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## olwen (Mar 9, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> I understand this perfectly when factoring in the sentence I've highlighted above.
> 
> But what about people who do believe that a partners' weight loss affects his/her libido? I guess what I'm asking is, CAN there be a differentiation? And if so, what motivates it?



I agree with Jo here (the parts I read anyway...there were a lot of words). I also think there is difference between someone who _wants _to loose weight for purely emotional reasons and someone who _has _to loose weight for health reasons. Neither thing is easy tho.

It would be easier for me to deal with weight loss for health reasons than it would be to deal with weight loss for emotional reasons. Dealing with my friend's weight loss (because she hated being fat) was and still is difficult for me because after close to 20 years of friendship I just had no idea she felt that way about her body. She just never let on about it. I can see how all my ra ra ra love your body stuff would keep her from saying anything too. After her WLS (four years out now), she isn't the same person. She's changed quite a lot in fact and so has our friendship. We're just not as close anymore. I told her when she got the surgery that I didn't like it, but that I would support her and I did and still do, but dealing with the attitude change just sucks. She's happier with herself now, and I'm happy she's happy, but the dynamic just isn't the same, and that sucks for both of us. In the end it's her body and I can't tell her what to do with it.

If we were dating and I were only attracted to her at the bigger size and thinking she liked herself that way only to come to find out (after years and years) she in fact hated it, it would make me wonder who I'd been dating all those years and I'd question myself and the entire relationship. I wouldn't want to stay. If the weight loss had been for a health reason I'd not only stay, but I'd do whatever I needed to do to help her maintain good health. Dealing with the health problem would trump any sexual issues, and they'd just have to go on the back burner. I might not be as attracted, but at least the relationship wouldn't have been based on lies, bad feelings, guilt, and self-hate.

I think if a person doesn't like who they are, they should do what they need to do to become the person they want to be before they get into a relationship. If a person can't love themselves, then why should anyone else?


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 10, 2011)

Olwen, I agree with everything that you said, and I appreciate that you took the time to express it. Actually, I don't disagree with the genuine, honest emotion expressed by Jo, either. I think that there's a lot of defensiveness around this issue but the heart of it all is that we ALL want to be accepted for who we are, we don't deal well with our core beliefs being challenged, and when we sense that this may be happening, the self-preservation instincts kick in. I don't think that Jo, or anyone like him, is a bad person for feeling the way that he does. And I give him credit for being upfront about it. I'm being just as honest when I say that while I can very readily acknowledge his points -- even understand them -- I couldn't be in a relationship with someone who is so defined by [what I believe to be] a very rigid definition of his sexuality, which apparently requires that his partner be fat ... like being fat ... and not want to lose weight unless it's for a reason that he finds acceptable. Even then I question if he's being honest with himself on that level. One thing that grabbed me about what you wrote:



olwen said:


> . I might not be as attracted, but at least the relationship wouldn't have been based on lies, bad feelings, guilt, and self-hate.


 
Thank you again for your honesty. And while I genuinely understand your feelings, I hope you can understand how awful I would feel if I were that person -- and I lost weight due to an illness -- and you were no longer 'as attracted' to me. I wouldn't want to be in that relationship; it would be damaging to my soul. As much as I can intellectually relate to what you are saying, and understand that your feelings are your own (and that even if you wanted to, you couldn't just wish them away), I would also be devastated by this new reality. 

I think that this is the piece that gets lost when we have this debate (as this issue seems to crop up over and over and over again, and ultimately, nobody feels validated and everyone ends up feeling misunderstood and demonized). Much as Jo's feelings are HIS, and he's entitled to them, surely he can also acknowledge that unless his partner is 100% committed to never losing weight (again, without his prior seal of approval), there is a very high likelihood that the relationship is going to end with a lot of pain on both sides. I'm not suggesting that he (or anyone else) can 'fix' that. I'm just hoping that he (and others who feel as he does) can understand and acknowledge WHY there is such an emotional reaction to this issue. I don't like how it always seems to degenerate into 'I'm more than just a fat body that you can objectify' but I understand why it inevitably heads in that direction. I know I've led the charge a time or two dozen, when I've allowed myself to become particularly provoked or my own value system feels threatened. But that's not the truth that Jo is trying to share, and I know that. I give him (and those who feel as he does, albeit not quite so ... prolifically) that much credit.


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## bonified (Mar 10, 2011)

This thread has been really eye opening for me. 

I never really got the whole FA thing, and realised I was in a relationship with one for 12 years and thought when i embarked on my initial weight loss mission that his reluctance to support me after I got to a kinda "normal fat" (for lack of a more diplomatic term) was somehow a form of sabotage on his behalf & took it to mean he was insecure as I was no longer just his to adore, as everyone's reactions and positive attention pissed him off. 

I never saw it from his perspective, i didn't accept or acknowledge my new born again christiany type fitness focussed self wasnt what he signed up for. My Weight fluctuates and has done, he met me before I gained, i blew up, i shrunk he went...

I would have liked to have thought that love held no bounds for the physical changes ones body goes through over time. But losing weight isnt just about the physical. Here comes my old pal restrospect again, and I realise the total change of lifestyle, attitude, passion, dedication primarily devoted on myself, and my goal and his comfortable complacency and at times resistance was due to his preferences that I took little time to recognise, nuture or even address. 

Losing weight for health reasons vs emotional reasons are for me one & the same. Emotional & physical ailments are both debilitating. If it is holding you back from being all you want to be, and this goes for anything just not weight loss, then you need to change it or suck it up. 

You need to balance health emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, financially etc, all the things otherwise in whatever aspect youre neglecting, someone you love is picking up that slack, and is it fair on them cos you dont have your shit together?


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## LovelyLiz (Mar 10, 2011)

bonified said:


> SNIPPED
> Losing weight for health reasons vs emotional reasons are for me one & the same. Emotional & physical ailments are both debilitating. If it is holding you back from being all you want to be, and this goes for anything just not weight loss, then you need to change it or suck it up.
> SNIPPED



I don't think these reasons are one in the same. If you have a physical problem, a physical solution makes sense. If you have an emotional problem though, I think you should primarily tackle it on an internal/emotional level. If someone has self-hatred about their body that's holding them back in life, and then they alter their body, in my experience this is just a short-term fix, and pretty soon after they'll find another thing about their appearance to fixate on with all their self-hate.

I agree that the physical and emotional are connected, and even intricately connected, but they aren't one in the same.


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## Jes (Mar 10, 2011)

olwen said:


> I agree with Jo here (the parts I read anyway...there were a lot of words). I also think there is difference between someone who _wants _to loose weight for purely emotional reasons and someone who _has _to loose weight for health reasons. Neither thing is easy tho.



isn't everyone always saying DIETS DON'T WORK!? If that's true, then why is anyone, anywhere, afraid of anyone, anywhere, losing weight? If they don't work, as everyone keeps telling me, then this is a bogeyman in the closet. Even the butchery of WLS doesn't work if you read the comments made. So, I mean, it's a fat free-for-all, and no one needs to dump anyone over it or be afraid of being dumped over it.


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## bigsexy920 (Mar 10, 2011)

Jes, the good thing about a person dumping a person for losing weight - helps to weed out the people I wouldn't want to be with. I wouldn't want to date a person that wants to be with me because of my weight. or dump me cause Ive lost weight. Im a big giant woman and always will be - even if i lose 100lbs Ill still be a big giant woman. So if a guy was saying they didn't want to be with me cause Im losing - well .... later for them I'm not taking away the fact that I'm still going to be huge - Ill just be healthier and more comfortable in life if I were a little smaller.(not a thin person - will never be a thin person) 

What you say is true here. Most diets don't work. Most people who have had WLS will gain back the weight. I am proof positive of this comment.



Jes said:


> isn't everyone always saying DIETS DON'T WORK!? If that's true, then why is anyone, anywhere, afraid of anyone, anywhere, losing weight? If they don't work, as everyone keeps telling me, then this is a bogeyman in the closet. Even the butchery of WLS doesn't work if you read the comments made. So, I mean, it's a fat free-for-all, and no one needs to dump anyone over it or be afraid of being dumped over it.


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## olwen (Mar 10, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> Olwen, I agree with everything that you said, and I appreciate that you took the time to express it. Actually, I don't disagree with the genuine, honest emotion expressed by Jo, either. I think that there's a lot of defensiveness around this issue but the heart of it all is that we ALL want to be accepted for who we are, we don't deal well with our core beliefs being challenged, and when we sense that this may be happening, the self-preservation instincts kick in. I don't think that Jo, or anyone like him, is a bad person for feeling the way that he does. And I give him credit for being upfront about it. I'm being just as honest when I say that while I can very readily acknowledge his points -- even understand them -- I couldn't be in a relationship with someone who is so defined by [what I believe to be] a very rigid definition of his sexuality, which apparently requires that his partner be fat ... like being fat ... and not want to lose weight unless it's for a reason that he finds acceptable. Even then I question if he's being honest with himself on that level. One thing that grabbed me about what you wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In my mind it doesn't make sense to expect someone to want to stay if one of the people in a relationship makes a change so radical it upsets the dynamic. I've been thru this myself. Not only with my best female friend but with a really close male friend too. I learned that sometimes love just isn't enough. It just isn't. I have no intention of becoming thin. I never have and never will, but I can see how if a person's weight fluctuates they'd want someone who would be attracted to them at every weight. I think those kinds of people exist, but they are rare. I just don't know anyone in my personal life who is attracted to a wide range of sizes. I have two guy friend who love me a lot, but because I'm not thin they never wanted to be with me. That's just how life is. Everyone should be with people who are better for them.



Jes said:


> isn't everyone always saying DIETS DON'T WORK!? If that's true, then why is anyone, anywhere, afraid of anyone, anywhere, losing weight? If they don't work, as everyone keeps telling me, then this is a bogeyman in the closet. Even the butchery of WLS doesn't work if you read the comments made. So, I mean, it's a fat free-for-all, and no one needs to dump anyone over it or be afraid of being dumped over it.



I guess this depends on how you define "diet." In my mind a "diet" is what most people do - starve themselves thin and resort to all sorts of tricks to make that happen. Thin no matter what. HAES does work tho I think as long as one is happy with whatever weight they end up at. My weight has never fluctuated wildly tho, so this whole becoming so thin that an FA would dump me if I lost weight thing has never been an issue for me, and it never will. I've always been fat and always will be.

Attraction isn't something one can control tho....


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## bigsexy920 (Mar 10, 2011)

I believe this is an important comment as well. 'I try to be aware of how I comment on a persons weight loss. I make an effort not to say. " You look great" or , "what diet are you on?" - If i comment at all I ask if everything is ok, with them....If they say that they have been working at improving their health by losing weight Ill comment that its hard work and that they are doing a great job. I know what a commitment it takes to decide to lose weight, especially when you are part of this "community" and it is so frowned upon. Its strange to me that its frowned upon to try to live a more healthy life. ... but thats another topic.



bonified said:


> T as everyone's reactions and positive attention pissed him off.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 10, 2011)

olwen said:


> I just don't know anyone in my personal life who is attracted to a wide range of sizes. I have two guy friend who love me a lot, but because I'm not thin they never wanted to be with me. That's just how life is. Everyone should be with people who are better for them.


 
I think that the disconnect for me is in how I define love, including romantic love, and I assume that it is at least similar for most other people. In the early stages of my past (and current) relationships, it would have been easy for me to walk away if he changed something about his physical appearance that wasnt to my liking. Where Im at right now, years upon years into being with someone who has stood by my side, wiped away my tears, made it possible for our son to come into our lives with numerous personal sacrifices along the way  and more importantly, let **me** into the most vulnerable parts of who he is  all of that is so bound up into what I love about him that it has become the bigger part of what I find attractive about him. I melt when I watch him tickling our son or when I think of the many things he does, quietly and without fanfare, to make life easier for us. I just cant imagine not wanting to be with him no matter what physical changes may occur because I no longer even see those that have already happened. I see Jerry. Im struggling with how to describe that without using 50,000 words or sounding maudlin because what Im really hoping to convey is that my definition of love is transformative. This has been my experience. I wouldnt be less attracted to Jerry if he gained 100 pounds or lost all of his hair because hed still be Jerry. To me, that is not unrealistic or overly idealized because it just  is. The other day I sat down on the bed to put my stockings on and I could see that this excited him. The part of me that wanted to get dressed, get our son dressed, and get the hell out the door for an early meeting was somewhat exasperated. But mostly, I was thrilled. Weve been together for more than 20 years and my body has gone through a lot of changes and from my perspective, it hasnt weathered them well. But he loves it. Im not so sure hed want to be anywhere within intimate distance of it, had he just met me weeks ago instead of years ago. I guess I just think that love softens the edges. 

So when I read about an inability to remain attracted to someone that (the general) you have been with for longer than the intial "getting to know you" stage, when two people decide to make a life together, and you start to really *know* that man or woman whom you fell in love with and that bond is cemented both by the good times AND how you've weathered the bad together ... I feel that if I could leave him because he gained or lost a dramatic amount of weight ... then I never really loved him at all. I'm not trying to diminish your perspective at all. Just saying that my own experience is so deeply ingrained that I'm having trouble understanding a different perspective on what love is.


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## joswitch (Mar 10, 2011)

KHayes666 said:


> Sexless? I can personally vouch that sex is amazing regardless of size lol



^Sounds to me like you're bisizual.

Yeah, my first ltr lover* was like a size 12 (most of the time we were together), and the sex was great! BUT I did have to quietly fantasise about her being a BBW in my head to *cough* get to the end, most of the time, as it were. And I don't think there's anything wrong with a partner having a lil' fantasy moment once in a while... But it's not ideal if it's a most-of-the-time necessity, let's face it.

(*back when I was 22, she was my first lt gf)

Whereas having sex with my later, ltr lovers who were BBWs was in a different league. Having the option to be properly being present-in-the-moment at all times, right up to the end? Does make a difference. It's not the be-all-and-end-all by any means, but ZOFMG - I'm talking incandesant, transcendent, incredible! Do want.

Whereas the OP said he has it even worse - he can't even get it up / on with a thin girl. So, yeah, that's what I was referring to when I tagged "sexless".


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## joswitch (Mar 10, 2011)

Jes said:


> isn't everyone always saying DIETS DON'T WORK!? If that's true, then why is anyone, anywhere, afraid of anyone, anywhere, losing weight? If they don't work, as everyone keeps telling me, then this is a bogeyman in the closet. Even the butchery of WLS doesn't work if you read the comments made. So, I mean, it's a fat free-for-all, and no one needs to dump anyone over it or be afraid of being dumped over it.



I normally have you on ignore, but I saw this in a quote.

Let's try this one last effort:
*
It's about the feelings.*

How do you think it *feels* to know that: you look at your partner and find them hotter and sexier for the exact same aspects that cause them to feel miserable and self-hating?
Do you not think that might make you *feel* like some kind of sick emotional parasite?? 
Regardless of what weight they're at, at any given time.
Self-hate can be contagious.

Try to imagine how it *feels* to know that when your lover is happy with/doing/being X, you'll always feel (somewhat) down about it, no matter how you fight that feeling. And when they are down about X, you'll always be fighting to supress feeling good about it.

Do you not think that *feeling* like that might fuck you up, ultimately crippling you sexually and/or emotionally?

Do you not think the *conflict of feelings* between wanting your lover to be happy / *worrying* about the dangerous, ultimately futile shit they're doing to themselves to get to Xlbs, and your own deep-seated ineradicable desires might not end up being a bit of a problem for you / between the two of you?

Do you not think it would *bother* you if your lover chose to do X in order to "fit in" / be "normal" / buy clothes in more shops (for instance) - knowing from the very start that it would be a big problem for you, but making it clear through their actions that reaching goal X, was more important / a higher priority than the bond between the two of you? (YES, that is your lover's perogative, but that doesn't make it feel good)

Try to imagine how lonely it is, *feeling* (however irrational that feeling may be) that your lover is slipping away from you inch-by-inch, and standing in the pub or club surrounded by her friends shouting and whooping about how wonderful (thin) they look now and "Oh, well done!" and how "*I don't even recognise you*". Yeah, that.

In my case six months of that was enough to give me ulcers and sleepless nights, and even more grey hair.

Other people's mileage may vary.


Summing up:
*Where's the joy in seeing your lover defeated in their ambitions?
Where's the joy in taking your pleasure knowing they are unhappy?*

It's just so much dry sand in my mouth.

*
I'd rather see her happy, as she wants to be (or as close as she can manage) WITHOUT me, than see her miserable WITH me.

I want to feel unconflicted / in harmony / whole-within-myself. 
I want that for my lover(s) too. 
And my ex-lovers.*


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## joswitch (Mar 10, 2011)

I realise that by trying (so very hard, and perhaps futilely) to convey these unrecognised negative feelings to people who never felt them, that I'm in danger of making it sound like that was an entirely hellacious time in my life.

Of course, it wasn't. For all the painful aspects of that time^ it was worth it, cos of course, my then gf was / is a truly awesome person. 
And we had many brilliant times together over those 6 months.
I still have a lot of love for her, and we remain friends.
It's hard to regret something that brings someone like that into your life.



Sometimes I wonder how things might've turned out: whether she'd've felt somewhat differently / less extremely about the whole size issue, if instead of us finally getting together 3 years after first meeting (she went off to Uni) we only got together when she had (only just) begun her campaign of extreme weightloss.

Maybe it would've made a difference to her, maybe not.

Maybe it would've made a difference to ME, if I'd had chance to make that deep bond with her, BEFORE she began losing so much, so fast, instead of trying to form that bond WHILE she was doing that. Or maybe it would've made it harder / worse.

Maybe, shmaybe.
Ho hum.
Onwards and upwards.


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## Jes (Mar 10, 2011)

joswitch said:


> I normally have you on ignore, but I saw this in a quote.
> ]



hahaha. you're a big baby.

when i have someone on ignore, that means i don't like him/her and don't want to engage with him/her, no matter what topics are discussed or whether that person calls me out or eggs me on. When I actually ignore someone, I don't address him/her in any threads for any reason. And what I also don't do, when I've had run-ins with people I don't like and have put them on permanent ignore is BE SURE TO MENTION THAT I NORMALLY HAVE THEM ON IGNORE. 

How old are you? Is something wrong with you? 

I find your posts fairly indecipherable but I don't feel the need to tell you that every time I come across one. Grow up.

And all this after I expressed sincere condolences that your ex died (of cancer? not of cancer? it's unclear) in your arms! I guess you never saw those messages of compassion, since you keep me on ignore, but you might want to be aware that if you're addressing me, you should be addressing all of me, not just the parts you cherry pick. If you don't, you won't see the goodness in my heart and the concern I felt for how difficult your life has been.

I said good day!


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## BlueBurning (Mar 10, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Do you not think it would *bother* you if your lover chose to do X in order to "fit in" / be "normal" / buy clothes in more shops (for instance) - knowing from the very start that it would be a big problem for you, but making it clear through their actions that reaching goal X, was more important / a higher priority than the bond between the two of you? (YES, that is your lover's perogative, but that doesn't make it feel good)



I'm not sure what kind of bond you would have with somebody if the bond was so fragile that a change in weight would be the major deal breaker. Nor can I imagine how you can conclude her doing something which she felt would make her happier was a sign that she valued weight loss more than the bond between the two of you. It seems her staying at the same weight was more important to you than the bond you two shared.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 10, 2011)

Jes said:


> hahaha. you're a big baby.
> 
> when i have someone on ignore, that means i don't like him/her and don't want to engage with him/her, no matter what topics are discussed or whether that person calls me out or eggs me on. When I actually ignore someone, I don't address him/her in any threads for any reason. And what I also don't do, when I've had run-ins with people I don't like and have put them on permanent ignore is BE SURE TO MENTION THAT I NORMALLY HAVE THEM ON IGNORE.
> 
> ...



Wow. Too bad he'll never see this little gem of wisdom and compassion. 

Oh wait...

I'm a little late to this party but while I feel for the guy (the OP, not Jos, let me be clear on THAT front) I'm glad he and his sweetie are giving it a go. I'm not so sure that I believe that FA'ism is as hard wired as some FA's would have us believe. I don't think there's evidence to support that belief, though it's certainly convenient, and lets them off the hook for some of their more egregious behavior when their loved ones decide to control their weight and try to lose weight.

Full disclosure: I dig super tall, super thin guys. I've never been attracted to fat guys, despite being fat myself. Is that hard wired? And if not, _why_ not? When I met Burtimus, when I was 16 years old, he was 6'2" and 135 pounds -- my perfect physical specimen. He now weighs nearly double that and while he's no longer physically my "type", I am no less attracted to him, and in fact I'm more attracted to him than ever. But I can think of no other fat guy (except John Goodman *sigh*) that does it for me. Should I leave him since he's gained weight? Should I be given a medal for staying despite the fact that he no longer looks like he did, violating the "deal" to "look good" that Jos was talking about in his earlier posts?

The answer? Hell no. I stay because I adore the man. I don't care what he weighs because over the years the millions of moments we've had together have created an attraction that is far far far more compelling than whatever initial attraction there was from how he looks. Now I can remember what it feels like when he touches my neck, says my name, grabs my (now much smaller) butt when I'm doing dishes. In the grand scheme of things that's far more important to me than whether or not he has a tummy.

My hope for our OP is that he will build this kind of intimacy with his sweetie so that his love for her and the intimate moments between them will create an attraction that transcends the size of her ass.


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## LovelyLiz (Mar 10, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> snipped
> So when I read about an inability to remain attracted to someone that (the general) you have been with for longer than the intial "getting to know you" stage, when two people decide to make a life together, and you start to really *know* that man or woman whom you fell in love with and that bond is cemented both by the good times AND how you've weathered the bad together ... I feel that if I could leave him because he gained or lost a dramatic amount of weight ... then I never really loved him at all. I'm not trying to diminish your perspective at all. Just saying that my own experience is so deeply ingrained that I'm having trouble understanding a different perspective on what love is.



I agreed with this whole post, 100%, TJ. I'm absolutely on the same page - and I think the word "transformative" is really apt when talking about deep, abiding love. Great, great post.


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## EvilPrincess (Mar 10, 2011)

Closing this thread for the time being. While this thread is being discussed by the moderator team please do not start any additional threads that are related to this, are a parody of this, defend this, or.... You get the point. Free discussion is great, just give us a little while to find the right place or direction for this.


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