# Pretty?



## superodalisque (Jul 5, 2010)

i stole this great video rant from a friend's facebook. it is really thought provoking. even though the designation "pretty" seems to be especially important among fat women in particular does the "pretty"question limit all girls no matter their size? how has the pretty word shaped you? has it limited who you are or distracted you from focusing on who you really are inside? is it just a part of you that you don't over analyze and accept as something you are anyway?

Katie Makkai's "Pretty" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6wJl37N9C0


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## AuntHen (Jul 5, 2010)

hmmm... I think there are *characteristics *that are "pretty" about me (if we are just talking looks), but I think there are many many girls/women prettier (physically). I care more about how my inside projects out and truthfully I am glad I am not *really *pretty or drop dead gorgeous, etc.. because:
1) It keeps me humble

2) It seems to create problems for these kind of women

3) I like people to really know ME and some people tend to get very caught up in looks and can easily be manipulated by them

I think I am *OK *and I am OK with that! I hope I am pretty inside though 

Just my opinion


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## CastingPearls (Jul 5, 2010)

That's a really powerful slam. 

Where do I begin? 

I don't take my beauty for granted but I will be the first to admit I'm not particularly humble. If that sounds contradictory, I'm a pathological hypocrite too but it's a girl's perogative to change her mind so I don't spend a lot of my time navel-gazing about that. 

I've been excused FOR horrible behavior and FROM more verbal 'fat type' abuse than my 'less pretty' counterparts, favored by teachers, merchants, relatives, law enforcement and others in authority and celebrated with a career (albeit brief) based entirely on my looks. I am also guilty of exploiting it if I feel it will help me obtain something I want. 

On the other hand, since I was a small child, I've been a target of sexual predators, subjected to heinous sexual harassment at several jobs, alienated by other girls/women who have never actually spoken a word to me, isolated from others because I was a 'distraction', rejected by potential suitors because they thought I was out of their league and potential friends because they were intimidated by my looks, had my feelings dismissed because 'you shouldn't cry...you're beautiful' (WTFuckityFuckFUCK does THAT mean) and been accused of 'stealing' countless husbands and boyfriends although I never ONCE did because I LOVED my friends and was loyal to them, and have even been falsely accused of infidelity. And yes, each and every time it was either blatantly or obliquely stated because of my appearance and (hand in hand--arrogance.)

Do you really want to know what I think of my beauty? It is an accident of nature that I could lose in a heartbeat. And yes, you can absolutely say to me, well, easy for you to say, you have it...but it has never insulated me from the heartache of not being loved by my husband or the rejection I feel when I just want to be someone's friend and I'm dismissed with a cursory glance or a contemptuous snarl. 

Although my face was spared, my body has been disfigured by disease. I see those scars as mementos of something that could easily have killed me and am not ashamed of them but I don't for one second forget to be grateful for the things that REALLY matter. Like a sound mind, creativity, humor, deep loyalty, a capacity and desire for forgiveness, what's left of my health, intelligence and quick wit, an ability to sense danger and the courage to face the known (unbelievable physical and emotional pain) and (even more terrifying) the unknown.

My definition of pretty IS what's inside. Truly. I know a lot of 'beautiful' people that are so ugly and tormented inside it shadows their visage. I know some people who might be described as conventionally 'unattractive' that are so tender and smart and merciful that they glow. That's the beauty that matters to me. 

In the short time that I've been posting at DIMS I am stunned by the beauty of the people in this place. Their words, their experiences, their wisdom, their deeds, their courage. 

The world (and particularly our culture) will continue to judge by the superficial and I am part of that world...I can't deny it nor can I isolate or separate myself from it. My fat has in some ways, like my beauty done that for me to a degree. But I can decide how to respond and how to behave and damn if I don't screw it up often enough but I keep trying and hope I'm succeeding because I think I'm 'pretty' awesome and THAT is what is important to me, about me and about the people I choose to share myself with.


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## KittyKitten (Jul 5, 2010)

Casting, very insightful post. I can also identify. I have always been called pretty ever since I blossomed as a teenager (I was teased for my butt teeth prior to braces and my foreign surname when I was a child). Even though I have gained a significant amount of weight since I was 16 (I was thin at 16), I am almost 27 years old and I am still told that I am pretty, perhaps more so now.

It took me a long time to own into my looks and to feel pretty. There are times when I feel like I look 'ugh'; my emotions tend to waver a bit. But for the most part, I feel that I am that pretty girl. 

Pretty does get a lot of favors and excuses some behavior. Teachers and professors favor you and give you that 'halo effect' when you are pretty, not to say that I didn't work hard in school, I did, but I had an easier time. 

Pretty gets men to treat you like you are feminine, like you are something. Men, for the most part, are nice to me. Women are also nice to me, even though there are some who are a little distant towards me because they think I will be stuck up because of my looks---most of them later warm up to me when they find out that I am down to earth and real. 

Pretty is a double edged sword---it can be quite inconvenient at times. For example, I can't go into a convenience store or gas station without being oogled or asked for my 'phone number'. "Got a man?" "Yes, sorry." "Can I be your friend?" "No thanks." It is hard to have male friends without them feeling sexually attracted to you or even falling in love with you. 

I consider pretty to be the combination of outside looks and the manner in one carries themselves.


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## Vespertine (Jul 5, 2010)

Other people's reactions to my looks have been so wildly variable I come to the conclusion the old adage is correct, there's nothing absolute about beauty and it has more to do with the person making the judgment than what I actually look like. My looks are kind of a neutral funhouse mirror for what people want to see, I've been 'disgusting' and a 'goddess' on the same night. I get more attention from men than I want, more annoying than flattering, kind of like what happyface said about going into gas stations. I have a stalkerish guy at my apartment complex, and I can't have any male friends apparently. Sometimes I don't want to leave the house because I dread the inevitable commentary, be it positive or negative. It gets really stressful at a certain point when I just want to go about my day. Yet, I rarely see anything real and positive from being 'pretty', and I sure thought it would mean more when I was a kid than it actually does. I'd take either favor at work for a change or a decent fella to be with as restitution. Choice is your universe! 

It seems to me beauty isn't a rare commodity in the least, gorgeous women are everywhere, calling themselves ugly in the mirror. Just another media hype with no substance, stealing people's money and keeping people separate in the process.


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## truebebeblue (Jul 5, 2010)

I am pretty,I know that. Thanks for the genetics mom n dad.
I was a pretty plain child.. chubby and quiet but when I 
developed I totally used that sexual power.
I still do,Its how I make a living. My thinking on it has changed alot in the last 10 years though.
Although still hypocritical,I know because of the following...
I used to be flattered when I would get whistled at or hey baby comments etc. Then one day I got mad and it never went away.
You will see some wrath if I am heckled... usually retort including your mother and a farm animal of some variety.Yet I still use my sexual power to make a living... and I am not ashamed of it at all.
Women are forever walking the line of balance... be sexy but not slutty,be pretty but unaware. It is alot of societal crap and most of it is perpetuated by OTHER women. How women look and dress have changed alot throughout society.and ya know what?... MEN ADAPT... so I do not feel like it is patriarchy thing at this point... WOMEN judge and rank other women far more viciously and systematically than men do.

Naomi Wolfe is great writer on this subject... 'the beauty myth' is her most famous book but I far proffered 'promiscuities' I think it should be mandatory reading for all girls and women.


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## Lamia (Jul 5, 2010)

Amazing video. It reflected everything I've ever felt. I am tired of women being reduced to their worth being equal to their looks. When she got to the part about "not enough strangers finding you suitably f***able" I was in tears and cheering in my soul. 

I wasted years of my life being sad because no one wanted me because I wasn't pretty enough. Wasted years I could have spent reading better books, learning interesting things, engaged with the world instead of hiding from it. 

As women we need to teach our daughters, sisters, mothers, nieces, the importance of creativity, intelligence, humor, joy, and that looks aren't equal to our worth as a human being.

I shared this with my facebook friends. Thanks.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jul 5, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> i stole this great video rant from a friend's facebook. it is really thought provoking. even though the designation "pretty" seems to be especially important among fat women in particular does the "pretty"question limit all girls no matter their size? how has the pretty word shaped you? has it limited who you are or distracted you from focusing on who you really are inside? is it just a part of you that you don't over analyze and accept as something you are anyway?
> 
> Katie Makkai's "Pretty" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6wJl37N9C0



I don't think I'm pretty, but I also don't think I'm ugly. I'm just average. I blend in more than I stand out and I'm pretty ok with that. I have seen too many women who are considered pretty not be taken seriously to want to be in their shoes.


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## calauria (Jul 5, 2010)

I think of my looks as average. I used to want to be pretty, like my older sister and have a lot of attention, but as I get older, I rarely stress about it. I'm just fine being me.


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## Tau (Jul 6, 2010)

I don't think I'm pretty - I never ever fit in that lable. Pretty in my world was fair skinned girls with small noses and long, straight hair. Pretty was never ever fat and short and dark - and really it still isn't. I love the way I look. Getting to this point has been a long, friggin hard slog but I'm here and its a really awesome place to be. I know I'm sexy as fuck and I've been called beautiful and entrancing blahblah but pretty is something that passed me by I think and the little girl who used to cry about it is pretty much over it


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## Dmitra (Jul 6, 2010)

Heck yeah!! Great performance and spot on. I thought it was amusing and a little sad that some guy commented about her being a man-hater when she didn't say a thing about men at all, at least that I remember.

Here's how I feel about the word pretty:

Pretty is such a weird word to me. It conjures up David Bowie to me, and Pretty Things, pretty boys, androgynous double entendres, and ennui.

I try not to think of the phrase "such a pretty face" as it's been used against me, used against wives by disapproving ex-lovers, used as a preface to the "you really need to lose a few pounds" lecture by both friendlies and strangers, used to the point of meaninglessness.

The one out FA I dated was a bumble bee of love among the fat flowers of womanhood, seemingly always out with a new lady whenever I'd see him afterward (not that that's bad, of course). He was one of those who did say the bit of me not having to worry about thin girls because he liked me just as I was, as if I was going to go weep in the bathroom about losing the one heroic guy on Earth who could sacrifice himself to condescend to fuck fat me. I wish I had been further along on my path to self-acceptance when I knew him so I could know whether I remember things went worse than they had.

A guy once wasted a half hour of my naive time online AOL in '91 asking me all about my body: he was a lover of the fat ladies and I'd just discovered chat rooms. So I gave him my dimensions. Hips were big enough, waist was sounding good to him, boobs on track . . . and we came to his exclamation that if I didn't have a fat face I'd be perfect! I was at a loss for what he meant. I mean, how the hell could I have 60-something inch hips and NOT have any fat on my face? I didn't tell him aye or nay, just thanks and take it easy. So "fat face" somehow got tacked onto "pretty face" in my head in a not-good way. So it was almost like I was at last having someone say to me it was a pity I had a beautiful body but such a fat face! Ye flipping yak dogs . . . .

Still I try to remain open-minded and to not bring along my pretty luggage whenever somebody says pretty with regard to me, other ladies, or whomever. It doesn't matter much to me these days whether people think I'm pretty in the conventional application so long as they think I'm a person they're interested in being around. I like pleasantly featured people as much as anyone but I'm not going to limit myself to them. And I don't buy that men are biologically more visually oriented. That whole thing appears more to be societally ground in as it has been suggested that women _in general /I] have better vision and sight acuity, particularly within close (i.e., intimate) range. 

And here is an interesting little article I found that may or may not be relevant to anything._


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## queensizedelight (Jul 6, 2010)

Tau said:


> I don't think I'm pretty - I never ever fit in that lable. Pretty in my world was fair skinned girls with small noses and long, straight hair. Pretty was never ever fat and short and dark - and really it still isn't. I love the way I look. Getting to this point has been a long, friggin hard slog but I'm here and its a really awesome place to be. I know I'm sexy as fuck and I've been called beautiful and entrancing blahblah but pretty is something that passed me by I think and the little girl who used to cry about it is pretty much over it



SEXY is so much more anyway! You are beautiful to me 
Much love 
Panterra


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## HottiMegan (Jul 6, 2010)

For me, knowing my whole life that i'm not pretty may have shaped how i act. I was told from a young age that i wasn't good enough or looked right to do things in life. So it has limited my life quite a bit.

It's sad that most of society does shape their ideas about a person on outward appearances. If we all judged people from intelligence and personality i think it would be so much nicer. Although, i have issues with my intelligence too. I think i'm just one messed up person


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## KuroBara (Jul 6, 2010)

It is sad that for women everything about them is gleaned from how they look, no matter how successful they are. Who cares that Oprah was the first Black woman on Forbes' Billionaire List--how did her hair look? Again, sad. 

The idea that I am not pretty enough has unfortunately bound me in horrible ways. For fear of not being pretty, I did have the confidence I should have had in high school. I know I've missed out on a number of dating opportunities because of that. I know now that I'm pretty, even lovely. I'm not glamorously beautiful, and I don't say that in a self-depreciating, way, but strictly matter of fact. I know I do have positive physical qualities and can be sexy when I put my mind to it, but I could be a well honed machine if I had not been so concerned about what my peers would think in high school. I know for sure I could have had two guys....dang, time wasted.


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## CarlaSixx (Jul 6, 2010)

All my life I've been called pretty, and I relate the word to a negative feeling all the time, and I think I always will. To me, pretty is not a passing grade for anything. 

I've always been the type to say "it must be done perfect otherwise it's worthless to try at all" and pretty doesn't come close to descriptors of "perfect" and therefore, to me, it's not even worth anything.

Have I gotten by in life a few times because of the word "pretty"? Maybe. I don't know for sure. But from my experiences, being labeled "pretty" can lead to a life of Hell.


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## Tau (Jul 6, 2010)

I actually just watched the vid - thanks so much for that link SuperO. She broke my heart when she said she hasn't seen her face in 10 years. What has always made me kind of pause at the crazy of our society is how many mothers are judged on the way their daughters look - anybody else noticed that? I will never forget my mom making embarrassed, laughing excuses for this 'fat, pitch black' creature she'd given birth to. My mom is awesome just by the way - not running her down here but that was what people said to her about me when I was little. People would ask her if she was sure my sister and I were siblings cos how could one be so pretty and the other just not and I distinctly remember the smug almost gleeful looks on the faces of the other women and other mothers who asked those questions. I made a documentary in university - it sucked soooo badly  - called The Ties that Bind exploring relationships tween mothers and daughters. And the chick who was the editor for the doccie had been fat when she was little and she told me that her mother would call her every 3 months or so, panic stricken, asking: "Oh my God you haven't gotten fat again have you Angie cos I dreamt you got fat again and I couldn't handle that happening to us again!"
Can you handle?? It sucked for Angie and it made me so angry for her but I also couldn't help wandering what her mother had been through, had heard and seen for her to openly panic at the thought of her daughter becoming 'unpretty' again. The stories like this are endless and its made me also so determined never to let any little girls I might have ever believe that their package, the fairness of their skin, the size of their breasts or the width of their hips is all they are worth.


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## Tau (Jul 6, 2010)

DameQ said:


> The one out FA I dated was a bumble bee of love among the fat flowers of womanhood, seemingly always out with a new lady whenever I'd see him afterward (not that that's bad, of course). He was one of those who did say the bit of me not having to worry about thin girls because he liked me just as I was, as if I was going to go weep in the bathroom about losing the one heroic guy on Earth who could sacrifice himself to condescend to fuck fat me. I wish I had been further along on my path to self-acceptance when I knew him so I could know whether I remember things went worse than they had.
> 
> A guy once wasted a half hour of my naive time online AOL in '91 asking me all about my body: he was a lover of the fat ladies and I'd just discovered chat rooms. So I gave him my dimensions. Hips were big enough, waist was sounding good to him, boobs on track . . . and we came to his exclamation that if I didn't have a fat face I'd be perfect! I was at a loss for what he meant. I mean, how the hell could I have 60-something inch hips and NOT have any fat on my face? I didn't tell him aye or nay, just thanks and take it easy. So "fat face" somehow got tacked onto "pretty face" in my head in a not-good way. So it was almost like I was at last having someone say to me it was a pity I had a beautiful body but such a fat face! Ye flipping yak dogs . . . .



Ok - firstly - bumblebee of love!! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! I cracked up for days  Secondly, the thin face thing - I hope you told him to take a pineapple shit and die!


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## LovelyLiz (Jul 7, 2010)

F*%K YEAH, KATIE MAKKAI!!!!!!

What a great video. That last minute...powerful. So so so true. I felt it in my guts.

I've totally been that girl who has driven home from a bar/club "crestfallen because not enough strangers found [me] suitably fuckable." I have SO been that girl. And the thing is, how high does that number even have to be? I mean, sometimes even if several guys approach me, it doesn't feel like enough. Because when that's the gauge of my self-worth, it's the insatiable hole that never gets filled. That whole scene doesn't much work for me, to have the kind of life I want.

It also reminds me of the Ani Difranco song _Not a Pretty Girl_. I remember the first time I heard that song (which was way after it came out) and it was so freeing to hear another woman both name the oppressive tyranny of beauty under which we women live, and for her to refuse to be bound by it. The reality is, even though I fight against the tyranny with about 80% of me, the other 20% is totally caught up in it, and mostly never feels good enough.

That's really great to hear that so many of you grew up being called pretty, and believing that you were pretty - honestly, what a wonderful gift! And you all are so lovely, it's certainly fitting. That was not my experience though. My parents never emphasized looks, but I definitely knew that there were these creatures called "pretty girls" and I was not among them. But "pretty" became loaded with lots of other things than just physical looks - it meant being flirty, stereotypically feminine, acquiescent, etc. Those were not things I really was for most of my life growing up (and still am not, except the flirty part, I am a tiny bit better at that. maybe.).

So, since I knew I wasn't one of the "pretty girls", and those were really the ones wanted by guys and valued in general, that meant I had to work my ass off to become awesome at basically EVERYTHING else, for the hopes of sneaking under the radar into the group of girls considered valuable.


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 7, 2010)

I grew up knowing I was "pretty". I was never starved for attention in any way. My parents always told me I was a "pretty" little girl and boys liked me. It made for some uncomfortable times making female friends in elementary school. Some girls didn't like me because I was "pretty" and I guess to add insult to injury I was also very smart and like-able/popular. I wasn't a bitch - I never felt I had to be. Some assumed I was stuck up based on my looks until they got to know me and eventually told me they prejudged a lot about me because of the way I carried myself. 

I can appreciate my parents though because they didn't put me on some imaginary pedastal and didn't give me a pass to misbehave or not achieve academic success because I was an attractive child. I remember always wanting to be like my mother when I was growing up. She was always proud of herself, always with class, poise and dignity. She was a career woman, had a pretty good relationship with my father (or so I gleaned from their interactions as a kid) and she was beautiful. Was she beautiful because she was working towards and achieving her personal goals and didn't have to throw people under the bus while doing it? Or was she because purely from a physical stand point? My biased mind thinks both.

I always knew I was loved and cared for and that they were very proud of me. But there was balance. They didn't see with rose colored glasses - if I stepped out of line, I was checked. I remember around 13 or 14 I wanted to wear makeup and my father walked into my room and gave me a big hug and told me I didn't have to wear makeup. I was pretty as is and I didn't need it. At that time I didn't "get it". But now, as an adult, I am thankful for that moment and others like it. 

I'm still an attractive woman, but as of late I've been reluctant to use the word "pretty" to describe my physicality. "Pretty" conjures up my childhood, innocence, etc. I'm not a child, so I choose to call myself beautiful, gorgeous, sexy, etc. And I don't feel that limits me - I am beautiful AND smart, I'm gorgeous AND I'm on my mad hustle (just got promoted!). I don't feel that I have to choose - it's not an either/or situation for me or my life. I'm comfortable being intellectual and holding the reins of my sexuality/sexual power. It's a balance though. I'm not interested in using my looks to get ahead. Do I think I've been favored in the past because I'm attractive? Yes, especially so when it comes to men. Women, on the other hand, can sometimes be jealous or feel like there's some kind of competition when there really is none. 

I'm trying not to take this whole "pretty" thing seriously though. I think it's all just an illusion and facade anyway. As long as I keep that in mind, I'm good. So I accept that I'm a beautiful woman and enjoy being that. It's just that most days I don't give it top billing in my life.


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## Sweet Tooth (Jul 7, 2010)

The problem with "pretty" is that there is also "prettier". As someone who's been burned horribly by this comparison [thanks, ex-husband], I hate that this life feels like constant competition for status and standing. I know that experts say cheating or a guy leaving you for someone else [or simply prefering the company of someone else when he claims to be in love with you] isn't about you and your need to be better or different [aside from normal relationship issues]... but in the minds of the people doing it, it seems that there is a kernel of this issue, even if there are deeper things going on. Or perhaps the comparision is just an excuse, but it's one that's effective at making women feel like shit.

I've been told I'm pretty [and sometimes believe it]. I've been told I'm anything from ugly to attractive to beautiful to gorgeous. Sometimes it feels like a scale, not just a description. Growing up, I was the smart one and had friends who were the pretty one.

At this point in my life, I'd prefer someone who can't put their finger on one single thing about me that makes them love me. I'd like someone who can list things they find beautiful in me, but who knows it's more than a laundry list of traits... and who will still feel that even if some of those traits change as I age and grow as a person. Perhaps someone who thinks I'm completely beautiful, not just pretty.


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## msbard90 (Jul 7, 2010)

I especially dislike it when my SO tells me, "you're so pretty to me". I always reply, "well what about the rest of the world. Am I only pretty to you?". I know it is insecure of me to ask such things, but I feel like he only calls me pretty on occasion, and always adds "to me", which IMO implies I am not pretty at all, but acceptable enough for him to fuck and cook his meals and do his laundry and care for his child. Acceptable enough that although he knows there is prettier out there, that I am the only one that is going to put up with his shit, so _it would be in his best interest to call me pretty on occasion_. He probably puts it in his blackberry as a reminder, because it sounds so forced when he says it. 

I feel like the word pretty is a filler. Its a harmless term and is so overused. Anything can be pretty. Anything can be cute. Pretty and cute are terms I have always been called. Pretty is something your friends call you when you're complaining about how you look and they have nothing else better to say. Cute is what guys say when they don't want to be mean. Cute is so childish, cute is imo a reference to personality and actions versus appearance, unless you're a chipmunk or a baby or the like. 

I might be selfish but what is the deal with people being afraid to call someone gorgeous, or stunning, or beautiful? I of course would only want to be called any of the above terms out of complete sincerity, but it would be nice to hear once in a while.

I know I am unaccepting of what other people think is pretty about me, which most people say my cheeks. I think that it is the biggest bullshit answer I have ever heard in my life. Its like, well your eyes, lips, body, breasts, ass, hair, and overall appearance look like shit, so whats left.... oh yeah your cheeks. Sorry for the rant, but I needed to say it at some point in life, and why not here.


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## Elfcat (Jul 7, 2010)

That's a pretty intense poem.

And it is interesting, because yesterday on her program Jennifer Stone was reading a version of the Little Mermaid which, by its sound, is no Disney fairytale. "I need your tongue for this potion. You will be voiceless, but every human male will fall for you. When you drink this on the shore, your tail will split, then shrink. It will feel like you have been sliced in half. You will be able to dance with great talent, but every step you take will feel like you are stepping on a knife."

Reminds me of something familiar, yes? I will try to edit out and piece together the two parts next week.


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## mossystate (Jul 7, 2010)

If it is what I am thinking, elfcat - it won't belong in this thread. If.


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## nettie (Jul 7, 2010)

Sweet Tooth said:


> The problem with "pretty" is that there is also "prettier". As someone who's been burned horribly by this comparison [thanks, ex-husband], I hate that this life feels like constant competition for status and standing. I know that experts say cheating or a guy leaving you for someone else [or simply prefering the company of someone else when he claims to be in love with you] isn't about you and your need to be better or different [aside from normal relationship issues]... but in the minds of the people doing it, it seems that there is a kernel of this issue, even if there are deeper things going on. Or perhaps the comparision is just an excuse, but it's one that's effective at making women feel like shit.
> 
> I've been told I'm pretty [and sometimes believe it]. I've been told I'm anything from ugly to attractive to beautiful to gorgeous. Sometimes it feels like a scale, not just a description. Growing up, I was the smart one and had friends who were the pretty one.
> 
> *At this point in my life, I'd prefer someone who can't put their finger on one single thing about me that makes them love me. I'd like someone who can list things they find beautiful in me, but who knows it's more than a laundry list of traits... and who will still feel that even if some of those traits change as I age and grow as a person. Perhaps someone who thinks I'm completely beautiful, not just pretty*.



Yes. Stated so very well SweetTooth.


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## Tau (Jul 9, 2010)

Elfcat said:


> That's a pretty intense poem.
> 
> And it is interesting, because yesterday on her program Jennifer Stone was reading a version of the Little Mermaid which, by its sound, is no Disney fairytale. "I need your tongue for this potion. You will be voiceless, but every human male will fall for you. When you drink this on the shore, your tail will split, then shrink. It will feel like you have been sliced in half. You will be able to dance with great talent, but every step you take will feel like you are stepping on a knife."
> 
> Reminds me of something familiar, yes? I will try to edit out and piece together the two parts next week.



This is the original Little Mermaid though - this is what the nuns read us in primary school. In the end she dies and, instead of becoming foam on the sea as she had feared, she becomes a sort of angelic guide, pretty much trapped between heaven and earth doing good deeds till judgment day. This was me at age 8:  LOL! It may be the original but I prefer to ignore its existence.


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## superodalisque (Jul 10, 2010)

Tau said:


> This is the original Little Mermaid though - this is what the nuns read us in primary school. In the end she dies and, instead of becoming foam on the sea as she had feared, she becomes a sort of angelic guide, pretty much trapped between heaven and earth doing good deeds till judgment day. This was me at age 8:  LOL! It may be the original but I prefer to ignore its existence.



the originals of fairy tails are amazing and have so much deep truth at their centers. there is a book out thats an anthology that has snow white, cinderella and all of the other traditions in it that haven't been disneyfied. they are great to think about. the language is sooo forceful. i'll try and find out what the name of it is.


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## CarlaSixx (Jul 10, 2010)

I've never seen the originals, but I'd love to


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## Vespertine (Jul 12, 2010)

Those original fairy tales are great! I had a collection years ago, it was called The Complete Grimm's Fairy Tales, translated by Margaret Hunt. Great, and at times disturbing, reading. I dunno if it has the little mermaid in it or not, can't remember....


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## CastingPearls (Jul 12, 2010)

Vespertine said:


> Those original fairy tales are great! I had a collection years ago, it was called The Complete Grimm's Fairy Tales, translated by Margaret Hunt. Great, and at times disturbing, reading. I dunno if it has the little mermaid in it or not, can't remember....


The Little Mermaid was written by Hans Christian Anderson so prolly not but the real Cinderella story was really brutal. Most of the original stories were more like scary cautionary tales than bedtime stories and nursery rhymes.

I read someone's thesis based on how quite a few fairy tales were really commentaries on women's behavior (or expectations of them) and how they have affected our roles in society. Good read.


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## mercy (Jul 15, 2010)

I admit I am shamelessly open to manipulation by people who use the word "pretty" on me. I was convinced I was ugly from a very young age (kids at school) so I still find it shocking that anyone could find me pretty, and I felt that way before I started gaining weight. 

It is limiting, of course. I have a degree, I'm passionate about things and I struggle with a mental health disorder. I would far rather be defined by those things than by something I have no control over.


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## Sweet Tooth (Jul 15, 2010)

mercy said:


> It is limiting, of course. I have a degree, I'm passionate about things and I struggle with a mental health disorder. I would far rather be defined by those things than by something I have no control over.



You know, that last bit... when I had to deal with the person who made me feel worse of the pretty/prettier comparisons, I used to respond, "Well, I'm glad she had the foresight to choose parents with good DNA."  I mean, really, there's some we can do with our looks because of makeup or even plastic surgery, but there's a lot we're just sort of stuck with. This idea that someone's prettiness is somehow entirely in there control and, therefore, a primary aspect on which they can be judged is ridiculous... yet this society seems to treat it as such.


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## KittyKitten (Jul 16, 2010)

Honestly, I find that women can be much more judgmental of another woman's looks and weight more so than men. For example, my aunt visited, later she says "you need to work on your weight, why don't you walk more yada yada yada?" I've never had men give me problems about my weight, only women and it hurts sometimes.


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## pinkflower26 (Jul 28, 2010)

i think all people have things about them that are pretty, not just our face. u might look at one women and she may have a nice figure but not a nice face and visa virsa . i hate girls that are up them selves and think they are absolutley gorgeous when there actually dogs !


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 28, 2010)

*subscribes*

lol


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## MizzSnakeBite (Jul 28, 2010)

pinkflower26 said:


> i think all people have things about them that are pretty, not just our face. u might look at one women and she may have a nice figure but not a nice face and visa virsa . *i hate girls that are up them selves and think they are absolutley gorgeous when there actually dogs !*



Good grief.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jul 28, 2010)

pinkflower26 said:


> i think all people have things about them that are pretty, not just our face. u might look at one women and she may have a nice figure but not a nice face and visa virsa . i hate girls that are up them selves and think they are absolutley gorgeous when there actually dogs !



visa virsa - vice versa

There - They're

Absolutley - Absolutely

:doh::doh::doh:

Beauty and brains is the ultimate combination.


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## mossystate (Jul 28, 2010)

Whores and dogs.

Welcome to the new(ish) anything goes bbw forum.

Woot!


LOL

:doh::bow::wubu::kiss2::happy::bow:


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 28, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Whores and dogs.
> 
> Welcome to the new(ish) anything goes bbw forum.
> 
> ...



Well not *anything* goes. I created a thread in here and mentioned neither whores nor dogs and it was moved to the lounge so fast I thought I drempt the whole thing. Report the post, see what happens.


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## mossystate (Jul 28, 2010)

.........


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## thirtiesgirl (Jul 28, 2010)

See, to me, what Katie Makkai is talking about in the Youtube clip is "hottness," not "prettiness," especially when she mentions "pretty" women getting attention from men in bars. I think there's a difference between "hot" and "pretty." To me, "pretty" describes one's overall appearance and is more of a tame word. "Hotness" is an attitude, and one doesn't necessarily need to be "pretty" to be "hot."

"Hotness" _is_ also a physical description, but to me, it refers to whether a woman has the obvious standard sexual signifiers - visible cleavage; rounded, lifted breasts; small waist; defined hips; legs visible in a skirt or dress (i.e., a "fuckable body"). Whereas a woman can be considered "pretty" without necessarily having those things.

I know plenty of pretty women who can walk into a bar and not be approached by men because their bodies don't fit the stereotypical definition of "hot," and they don't exude a confident, outgoing personality. That doesn't mean they're not confident, but just that they show it in different ways, rather than the outgoing, extroverted ways that usually signal to men that "this woman wants to be approached." Pretty women may be thin or average in body size, but based on how they choose to dress or their body shape in itself, they don't show the standard sexual signifiers that these guys are looking for. So they may have a pretty face, pretty smile, have long hair, are slender and otherwise fit within the standard tropes of "prettiness" and "having a socially acceptable body type," but because they're not seen as "hot" and "approachable" by the guys cruising the bars, these women are seen as "tame" and generally ignored by guys in that setting. Less so in other settings, like the work place. But women who fulfill men's definition of "hot" will still tend to get more attention.

Considering some of the skeevy guys who try to pick up on women in bars and clubs, though, being ignored is not such a bad thing. ...Although, when I was ignored, I couldn't even claim "pretty but tame" as a reason. And there was a time in my life when I _didn't_ want to be ignored by the bar guys.

I'm not pretty and never have been. When I'm not smiling, I have a sullen face (like, Christina Ricci sullen) and look pouty and upset even when I'm not. It's been that way since birth. My mom, who was never good at _not_ being judgmental, used to often snap at me, "get that pouty look off your face!" when it was just my normal facial expression. I'm also fat - disproportionately fat, not an hourglass shape. I have a flatter ass, smaller hips, broader shoulders and bigger boobs and belly. Most guys I've met generally prefer a fat woman if she's hourglass shaped. ...Point being, I can walk into a bar or club and be ignored like these nice, pretty women, but not because I'm seen as "nice" or "pretty." I'm ignored because I'm not "hot," and I certainly don't look approachable.

Now, there was a time in my life when I really cared about not being ignored by all members of the opposite sex. So I learned to play up my assets, so to speak, and become a little more extroverted and outgoing when out on the town. Even if I didn't have all the sexual signifiers of a "hot" woman, I did have _one_: boobs. Put me in a Wonderbra in a low-cut top or corset, and my boobs practically did the talking for me. Put on some red lipstick, and suddenly I'm looking...well, if not exactly approachable, at least a little more "come hither." Pretend to be extroverted and outgoing for an evening (particularly with the help of alcohol), and suddenly I'm the life of the party.

So, while I'm not a "pretty" girl, I knew how to "play hot," and could get attention from men when I did. I've seen plenty of other women of all sizes and shapes do the same. Even if she doesn't have a standardly "pretty" face, as long as she can show some physical signifiers of "hotness," a woman is seen as more approachable, less ignorable by men.

Of course, all the men who approached me were operating on one assumption only: to see if I was "easy," to see if they could score a hook-up. That's not to say they approach other women who are "playing hot," or actually fall within their narrow definition of "hot" for the same reason. But they did with me. It was patently clear from their actions, and I had to learn it the hard way on more than one occasion.

Not growing up "pretty" or "hot," I'd never had men approach me just to talk, or want to do things for me, and I never learned to use my "hotness" to get things from men. I'd always done everything on my own. Never mind that my hair was clean and neat, my teeth were straight, I tried to smile, I didn't wear too much makeup, I wore clothes with personal style... that wasn't enough. So I learned to "play hot," and got what attention I could. But I eventually learned, after a lot of mistakes, that the kind of attention I got while "playing hot" wasn't the kind of attention I wanted.

These days, I don't do that any more. I don't care if I get attention from guys in bars. Most of them are not worth my time anyway. I do still wish that I was prettier because I think there are advantages to being standardly pretty, but I've made peace with my face and my body, for the most part. I'm at a point in my life where I'm generally comfortable with my looks. I have my bad days when I get down on myself and despise my looks, but those days are fewer and far between than they used to be, and I hope that keeps improving as I age and grow more comfortable with myself.

...Anyway, my point was, I think there's a difference between "pretty" and "hot," and I think Katie Makkai was talking more about hotness in her poetry slam. While I agree that just aspiring to be "pretty" or "hot" is limiting and pointless, if you've never been seen as pretty or hot, sometimes the desire to be seen that way can kind of take over your life. In my case, I eventually learned that the kind of attention I got by "playing hot" was not the kind of attention I wanted. But I also think that because I was never defined by just my looks when I was a kid (outside of being told I was "ugly" or "weird-looking" by the kids I went to school with), I learned from an early age that I have other things to offer. And I can't say that was a bad thing for me.


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## lovelocs (Jul 28, 2010)

Lots of good stuff in the above post... Unless a woman has been practicing with her beauty for a long time (if she was beautiful as a child, and it was recognized, and built on and she had the chance to observe its effects in the relative safety of childhood), and unless she is "sure of it as a good weapon in tight places" as F.Scott Fitzgerald would say, then she is bound to have had some experiences where it did not get her what she expected. Beauty is powerful, and at least where I come from, it can get a woman hurt. 
I grew up never being told I was pretty, or beautiful. My mother just did not have those words for me. She knew that she had been beautiful in her youth, and she liked to tell me those stories, but she didn't ever see me as such, nor did she try to cultivate it. I grew up with a strong emphasis on my academic achievements, and my good common sense. There was never much of an effort made to groom me. Because of this, I never really bonded with many other girls or women (beauty was important even in grade school, and if you didn't have it, you were out, or you were the homely friend they kept around to look better.) Most of my friends were male, and most of them are to this day. 
I discovered my beauty on my own, how to work with my hair, and figure, and skin. Now that I've gotten older, I find that a little grooming goes a very long way, and I enjoy "putting on pretty" and taking it off. Sometimes I do it just to mess with people, and sometimes I actually make myself attractive to attract people (go figure). Even as a child, I thought that beauty was a process a woman subjected herself to, more than an outcome. I've seen women wearing weaves and makeup which looked hideous on them, and they've made snide comments about my naked face and natural hair. Plastic surgery "afters" frequently don't look much different than "befores," at least to me... I never was hurt or held back by being seen as pretty (because it wasn't there), and now I'm playing with pretty, and enjoying it.


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## BBW4Chattery (Jul 28, 2010)

I've always disliked the term "pretty." I associate it fairly closely with how Katie seems to define it. It always felt superficial to me. It's the easy compliment to offer that carries no weight.

For whatever reason, anyone who told me I was pretty... I ignored. The praise I craved was the word "beautiful." In my mind, beautiful was/is whole, integrated, well-considered, thoughtful, present, powerful... Pretty is how I refer to a little girl's dress or a play-do man my nephew makes for me.

Just my opinion.

As for me being pretty... I don't feel it all the time. I feel it less and less often as I get older. I've felt pretty... I've even felt beautiful... I've been lucky enough to never need reinforcement to feel either... but at the same time, I'm my most harsh critic... so when the ugly feelings take over... just wow, I feel ugly.

Love the video. Already shared it with someone I think could benefit from that perspective.

Thanks.


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## katherine22 (Aug 5, 2010)

Since I was never pretty, cute or beautiful, I had to develop style, intelligence and imagination. So many physical aspects such as pretty are transitory, self-development is enduring.


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## KittyKitten (Aug 5, 2010)

pinkflower26 said:


> i think all people have things about them that are pretty, not just our face. u might look at one women and she may have a nice figure but not a nice face and visa virsa . *i hate girls that are up them selves and think they are absolutley gorgeous when there actually dogs *!



Or women who say they are 'ugly' but are really beautiful in reality. I see a lot of women downplaying their beauty.


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## Dibaby35 (Aug 5, 2010)

I was never really called pretty growing up. So I relied more on my personality to get through school and being good at sports helped as well. Doesn't matter what u look like with sports..as long as your good..people will accept you.

Anyways I recently lost a lot of weight then I was attracting some attention but now that I've gained a good portion of it back I'm back to invisible. Yeah it's hard not to think.."if only if I were thin I would be happy" mode..sigh.


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## Tracyarts (Aug 5, 2010)

" Or women who say they are 'ugly' but are really beautiful in reality. I see a lot of women downplaying their beauty. "

I've noticed that with many of the women I've been around it's really frowned upon to openly acknowledge your physical assets, and to actually show pride in them is absolutely unacceptable. Hell, it's not even just looks, they downplay all their assets lest they be labeled as "conceited" or "full of themself". 

And I don't get that. There is pressure to be pretty, talented, successful, etc... but also pressure to downplay it or at least act nonchalant about it. Because if you own it and show pride in it, you risk being labeled "conceited" or "full of yourself". 

Makes no sense whatsoever.
Tracy


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## Dibaby35 (Aug 5, 2010)

I blame the men..lol


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## MizzSnakeBite (Aug 5, 2010)

'Some' truly do not feel they're pretty/attractive/etc even though they are in other people's eyes. They're not saying they're not attractive to garner attention, they truly do not believe they are. When told they're attractive, they think the person is simply being nice. Just a thought from someone that has never considered themselves attractive.

Love the judgefest going on towards women in the BBW forum.




ETA: Oh, and I'm not "jealous" of another woman's beauty/talent. I've had many accomplished/beautiful female friends, and have complimented them on their accomplishments/beauty.


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## CastingPearls (Aug 5, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> " Or women who say they are 'ugly' but are really beautiful in reality. I see a lot of women downplaying their beauty. "
> 
> I've noticed that with many of the women I've been around it's really frowned upon to openly acknowledge your physical assets, and to actually show pride in them is absolutely unacceptable. Hell, it's not even just looks, they downplay all their assets lest they be labeled as "conceited" or "full of themself".
> 
> ...


Good point, Tracy, but even further, owning up to it seems to make one shallow, lacking in character, personality or intelligence by those under the assumption that pretty women don't need to build or develop meaningful characteristics because they're superficial.


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## QuasimodoQT (Aug 6, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> 'Some' truly do not feel they're pretty/attractive/etc even though they are in other people's eyes. They're not saying they're not attractive to garner attention, they truly do not believe they are. When told they're attractive, they think the person is simply being nice. Just a thought from someone that has never considered themselves attractive.
> 
> Love the judgefest going on towards women in the BBW forum.
> 
> ...



I can really relate to this. My friends and family tell me that I'm pretty. Every once in a while the angles and lighting all align where I can see it in a photo, but I have issues with almost everything about the way I look. Hence my handle.

When I care about someone, they gradually become more and more attractive to me, and vice versa. So when people who love me give me compliments, I chalk it up to that.

I did think I was a pretty child, but I attracted so much sexual attention as a kid that I don't think it did me any favors- as others have said- predators are drawn to that, and I had plenty of predators.

I really -don't- know if I see it differently than other people, but it's my personal truth.


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## MizzSnakeBite (Aug 6, 2010)

QuasimodoQT said:


> I can really relate to this. My friends and family tell me that I'm pretty. Every once in a while the angles and lighting all align where I can see it in a photo, but I have issues with almost everything about the way I look. Hence my handle.
> 
> When I care about someone, they gradually become more and more attractive to me, and vice versa. So when people who love me give me compliments, I chalk it up to that.
> 
> ...



While I don't wish that on anyone, I'm glad someone understands where I'm coming from.

Looking back, when I was a young child, I was sorta cute. I too was abused, and I also had/have a crazy mother that told/tells me on regular occasions how horrible I was/am. She also spent the majority of my childhood in psychiatric hospitals where I was handed off to whomever would take me. I got everyone's leftovers, was often neglected, had to fade away just to survive, and was explicitly told not to do, say, or look any way that might attract attention (good or bad). That's probably where my lack of regard for myself comes from.


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## KittyKitten (Aug 6, 2010)

Tracyarts said:


> " Or women who say they are 'ugly' but are really beautiful in reality. I see a lot of women downplaying their beauty. "
> 
> I've noticed that with many of the women I've been around it's really frowned upon to openly acknowledge your physical assets, and to actually show pride in them is absolutely unacceptable. Hell, it's not even just looks, they downplay all their assets lest they be labeled as "conceited" or "full of themself".
> 
> ...



Exactly, and not just with physical beauty but anything in general--their intelligence, education level, etc. A woman who considers herself as beautiful may be met with "you think you're all that, don't you?" Or here is another one, "you're the vainest person."


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## calauria (Aug 6, 2010)

QuasimodoQT said:


> I can really relate to this. My friends and family tell me that I'm pretty. Every once in a while the angles and lighting all align where I can see it in a photo, but I have issues with almost everything about the way I look. Hence my handle.
> 
> When I care about someone, they gradually become more and more attractive to me, and vice versa. So when people who love me give me compliments, I chalk it up to that.
> 
> ...



I attracted a lot of sexual attention when I was a child and still do. I've come to believe sex is the only thing I can offer a person, since that's all they seemed to ever want. Plus, live I've said before, if I say "no" it doesn't really matter, they'll find some way to get it from me, anyways.


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## thirtiesgirl (Aug 7, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> While I don't wish that on anyone, I'm glad someone understands where I'm coming from.
> 
> Looking back, when I was a young child, I was sorta cute. I too was abused, and I also had/have a crazy mother that told/tells me on regular occasions how horrible I was/am. She also spent the majority of my childhood in psychiatric hospitals where I was handed off to whomever would take me. I got everyone's leftovers, was often neglected, had to fade away just to survive, and was explicitly told not to do, say, or look any way that might attract attention (good or bad). That's probably where my lack of regard for myself comes from.



I can identify with this in a lot of ways. My mother has borderline personality disorder, and I experienced a lot of emotional abuse and neglect from her, and some physical abuse when I was growing up. I was constantly criticized, everything about me was wrong, especially the way I thought and felt (which is par for the course with someone suffering from BPD; they literally can't understand and accept anyone else's feelings but their own). I got a lot of criticism on the looks front, too, but heard more often that my interests and feelings were wrong. I'm so sorry to hear you had to experience your mom going in and out of psychiatric hospitals. That wasn't something I went through and can't imagine how awful that must have been. But I spent a lot of time fading and escaping from my mom and the general household in order to survive. When I was older and had spent some time away from my family, I realized that I didn't really know how to _see_ myself and that I have a lack of regard for myself. I've tried to work on it over the years, but old habits die hard.


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## littlefairywren (Aug 7, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> While I don't wish that on anyone, I'm glad someone understands where I'm coming from.
> 
> Looking back, when I was a young child, I was sorta cute. I too was abused, and I also had/have a crazy mother that told/tells me on regular occasions how horrible I was/am. She also spent the majority of my childhood in psychiatric hospitals where I was handed off to whomever would take me. I got everyone's leftovers, was often neglected, had to fade away just to survive, and was explicitly told not to do, say, or look any way that might attract attention (good or bad). That's probably where my lack of regard for myself comes from.





thirtiesgirl said:


> I can identify with this in a lot of ways. My mother has borderline personality disorder, and I experienced a lot of emotional abuse and neglect from her, and some physical abuse when I was growing up. I was constantly criticized, everything about me was wrong, especially the way I thought and felt (which is par for the course with someone suffering from BPD; they literally can't understand and accept anyone else's feelings but their own). I got a lot of criticism on the looks front, too, but heard more often that my interests and feelings were wrong. I'm so sorry to hear you had to experience your mom going in and out of psychiatric hospitals. That wasn't something I went through and can't imagine how awful that must have been. But I spent a lot of time fading and escaping from my mom and the general household in order to survive. When I was older and had spent some time away from my family, I realized that I didn't really know how to _see_ myself and that I have a lack of regard for myself. I've tried to work on it over the years, but old habits die hard.



Both of your posts made me think a lot about my own behaviour, and the way my own childhood has impacted the way I view myself as a woman, and my appearance.

My mother was physically abusive and had her own mental issues she dealt with. I learnt very early on to "disappear" or be as unobtrusive as possible in case I happened to be in arms reach, or in the wrong place at the wrong time. I cut off my hair at one point so she could not drag me around when she was in a rage. In the end she cut it all off anyway, because she told me I looked like a slut when I would wear it loose. She told me non stop that I would be so much prettier if I lost weight, and was put on a continuous round of diets as a child and young girl. 

I learnt that thin equals beautiful, and have had a very hard time growing into and being comfortable in my own skin. It is rare that I consider myself pretty, but at times think I may be. But it is always there in the back of my head, if only I was thinner, maybe I could be pretty.

She and I have made peace, but I have an incredibly hard time letting her touch me now or sharing my life with her. But I know she still thinks the same way....if only you were thinner you would have yourself a man, a better life etc. . GRRRR!


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## MizzSnakeBite (Aug 7, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> I can identify with this in a lot of ways. My mother has borderline personality disorder, and I experienced a lot of emotional abuse and neglect from her, and some physical abuse when I was growing up. I was constantly criticized, everything about me was wrong, especially the way I thought and felt (which is par for the course with someone suffering from BPD; they literally can't understand and accept anyone else's feelings but their own). I got a lot of criticism on the looks front, too, but heard more often that my interests and feelings were wrong. I'm so sorry to hear you had to experience your mom going in and out of psychiatric hospitals. That wasn't something I went through and can't imagine how awful that must have been. But I spent a lot of time fading and escaping from my mom and the general household in order to survive. When I was older and had spent some time away from my family, I realized that I didn't really know how to _see_ myself and that I have a lack of regard for myself. I've tried to work on it over the years, but old habits die hard.



Thanks. 

Yeah, mine is severely bipolar, and has Borderline Personality Disorder too. It's pretty sad that the majority of my childhood memories are playing on the grounds of psych hospitals.

It's always me that's the problem (in her eyes). I went with her once to family counseling......never again.. She was cruel and cold, and didn't see how awful she was being (even though I was crying). The therapist tried to get through to her, but she could care less. During it all, he looked at me with pity and told me, "I'm so sorry."

She was always putting me on diets. It has always seemed as if I was never enough in her eyes. I guess the worst thing is that she'll just berate me, tell me I'm a horrible person, then say a minute later that she loves me so much, and that I'm the most important person in her life. That's f-ed up.



littlefairywren said:


> Both of your posts made me think a lot about my own behaviour, and the way my own childhood has impacted the way I view myself as a woman, and my appearance.
> 
> My mother was physically abusive and had her own mental issues she dealt with. I learnt very early on to "disappear" or be as unobtrusive as possible in case I happened to be in arms reach, or in the wrong place at the wrong time. I cut off my hair at one point so she could not drag me around when she was in a rage. In the end she cut it all off anyway, because she told me I looked like a slut when I would wear it loose. She told me non stop that I would be so much prettier if I lost weight, and was put on a continuous round of diets as a child and young girl.
> 
> ...



(((HUGS))) to my Chicklet! :wubu:


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## thirtiesgirl (Aug 8, 2010)

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Yeah, mine is severely bipolar, and has Borderline Personality Disorder too. It's pretty sad that the majority of my childhood memories are playing on the grounds of psych hospitals.
> 
> It's always me that's the problem (in her eyes). I went with her once to family counseling......never again.. She was cruel and cold, and didn't see how awful she was being (even though I was crying). The therapist tried to get through to her, but she could care less. During it all, he looked at me with pity and told me, "I'm so sorry."



Ugh, what an awful experience.



MizzSnakeBite said:


> She was always putting me on diets. It has always seemed as if I was never enough in her eyes. I guess the worst thing is that she'll just berate me, tell me I'm a horrible person, then say a minute later that she loves me so much, and that I'm the most important person in her life. That's f-ed up.



This sounds very much like my mom. She's not quite as severe, but I've always gotten the mixed messages from her. I got called all sorts of names when I started dating my first serious boyfriend in college. I was living at home because I was paying my way through school, because my mom wouldn't sign the financial aid papers for me to go to a school away from home. So when I started dating my college boyfriend and having sex with him, it was kind of hard to hide being out all night and coming home the next morning. So I was told "he's just using you," "he wants only one thing," called a slut, whore, etc. She even kicked him out of the house when he came to visit once.

As soon as I graduated college, I was out of her house and moved into a shared living situation with some other people. One month, I accidentally bounced my rent check, so I had to ask my mom to borrow $400 because I had no one else to turn to. She didn't believe I needed the money for rent and would only loan it to me after I'd called the property manager and she could confirm with him over the phone that I'd bounced a check. Once that humiliation was over, she loaned me the $400. It was only after I left that I realized what she'd thought I'd needed the money for. She thought I'd needed it for an abortion and wouldn't have given it to me if I had.

Years later, long after I'd broken up with my college boyfriend and moved to LA, I made the mistake of talking with my mom about my dating life and how dismal it was. Her response? "Whatever happened to Ben (the college b/f)? Don't you two ever talk any more? He was such a nice boy!" ...I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.


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## lust4bbbws (Aug 9, 2010)

*Pretty is relative.*


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## lust4bbbws (Aug 11, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> i stole this great video rant from a friend's facebook. it is really thought provoking. even though the designation "pretty" seems to be especially important among fat women in particular does the "pretty"question limit all girls no matter their size? how has the pretty word shaped you? has it limited who you are or distracted you from focusing on who you really are inside? is it just a part of you that you don't over analyze and accept as something you are anyway?
> 
> Katie Makkai's "Pretty" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6wJl37N9C0



*Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Old but still rings true with me.*


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## KittyKitten (Aug 11, 2010)

The word 'Pretty' has taken such a beatdown. Now everyone wants to be 'sexy'!


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## mossystate (Aug 11, 2010)

lust4bbbws said:


> *Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Old but still rings true with me.*



But that just puts control of the ball in somebody elses court, unless you are solely talking about a woman looking into a mirror...if not, it really misses what is being discussed here.


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## superodalisque (Aug 11, 2010)

happyface83 said:


> The word 'Pretty' has taken such a beatdown. Now everyone wants to be 'sexy'!



sexy is in the process of taking a beatdown too. its another word full of empty promises.


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## thirtiesgirl (Aug 11, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> sexy is in the process of taking a beatdown too. its another word full of empty promises.



As is 'cute.' I get 'cute' a lot. I really used to hate it, especially in high school and college because I wanted to be such a _femme fatale_. Never mind that I was about as _fatale_ as an after dinner mint...still am, really. I just hated being referred to as 'cute.' I would have much preferred 'sexy.' ...Although I suppose I really shouldn't complain. I'd even take 'cute' these days. Heh.


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## CarlaSixx (Aug 12, 2010)

I always got "cute" and still do. As well as "pretty" and that is more insulting to me than a stab at my size, to be honest.

Though, if someone uses the word "sexy" it _totally_ rubs me the wrong way. I hate the word. I never use the word and absolutely hate hearing it as a descriptor for me. I always felt a negative vibe with the word, like it immediately means all you're worth is sex. And I don't want to be seen as that, nor do I see anyone else as that, so I never say it.

But then again, any "compliments" rub me the wrong way, but words with a more sexual theme are the ones that bother me the _most._ I'm not a sex toy, and I feel those kinds of words mean the person sees me as just that.


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## KittyKitten (Aug 12, 2010)

CarlaSixx said:


> But then again, any "compliments" rub me the wrong way, but words with a more sexual theme are the ones that bother me the _most._ I'm not a sex toy, and I feel those kinds of words mean the person sees me as just that.



It shouldn't rub you the wrong way. We are humans and we are sexual creatures. We should not be ashamed of our sexual power.


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## ashmamma84 (Aug 12, 2010)

Full of empty promises for who?

I'm a woman who enjoys giving and receiving compliments. Simple as that. I don't base my self-worth on it though. It adds a lil pep in my step to compliment another woman. Sometimes things are really harmless and it's best to enjoy them as they are. A compliment is just that.

No beat downs for any words.


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## CastingPearls (Aug 12, 2010)

ashmamma84 said:


> Full of empty promises for who?
> 
> I'm a woman who enjoys giving and receiving compliments. Simple as that. I don't base my self-worth on it though. It adds a lil pep in my step to compliment another woman. Sometimes things are really harmless and it's best to enjoy them as they are. A compliment is just that.
> 
> No beat downs for any words.


Agreed 100%. There is no ulterior motive or deceit in the compliments I give, and I really enjoy telling people good things about them, whether it's something they said, the new color of their hair, or admiring their taste. It's an extension of my admiration for them. 

And I enjoy compliments as well, except by strangers who want to see photos of my ass.


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## thirtiesgirl (Aug 12, 2010)

I kind of get where Carla's coming from, though. If a guy approaches me at a bar or online and the first words out of his mouth are "hey, sexy," I know he's not being sincere. If he approaches me and says something like, "hi there, I really like that color on you," "that corset really suits you," "I like what you have to say for yourself," or even "how are you doing?", I'll be much more willing to talk with him.

Now if I know a guy well and he compliments me by saying I look sexy, I have no problem with that. Or if I'm going out with the girls and they tell me I'm looking like a hot mama, I have no problem with that either. But if some guy I don't know well is trying to open the conversation with "hey, sexy" or "hey, beautiful," it doesn't really work for me.


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## mossystate (Aug 12, 2010)

Yeah. Too many people throw words around to the point where they lose all meaning. It starts feeling like fast food...tasty - but a diet filled with it is empty and not very satifying.


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## Dmitra (Aug 12, 2010)

thirtiesgirl said:


> As is 'cute.' I get 'cute' a lot. I really used to hate it, especially in high school and college because I wanted to be such a _femme fatale_. Never mind that I was about as _fatale_ as an after dinner mint...still am, really. I just hated being referred to as 'cute.' I would have much preferred 'sexy.' ...Although I suppose I really shouldn't complain. I'd even take 'cute' these days. Heh.



I can so relate to this!



CarlaSixx said:


> I always got "cute" and still do. As well as "pretty" and that is more insulting to me than a stab at my size, to be honest.
> <snip>



And this. What was rather absurd yet really hurt was when my brother decided to hold a discussion with himself about my looks. I was "cute" not pretty or beautiful (As an elder brother and former HUGELY abusive jerk he seemed to think I had a large, unreasonable ego and needed to be reminded of how non-special I was, and frequently. God damn all _issues_.) Standard fat-girl compliments from other people of "pretty eyes" and "pretty smile" barely hurt after that. Despite working on improving my self-image it's still really difficult to assess my looks. At least I can like my nose these days. lol



happyface83 said:


> It shouldn't rub you the wrong way. We are humans and we are sexual creatures. We should not be ashamed of our sexual power.



As well as this over the course of my learning to accept compliments and stand up for myself. I think sex is all that with biscuits and gravy and feel no shame for desiring or enjoying the various things I do.

I've already written what I think of _pretty_ but thought I'd add a few words about _hot_. UGH!! For me it conjurs up images of the 1-900 blondes with their fake-boobed, styrofoam bodies and vapid looks. It's a shame because it's an apt word for any person who raises your sexual temperature (maybe it's just a thing against Paris Hilton). It's also kind of odd because when a man is described as hot, I have less of a problem with it. I"ll get over the hot prejudice eventually. I mean, I got over thinking fat was a bad word, no problem.


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## Ruffie (Aug 13, 2010)

I held off commenting on this thread cause its a complex subject for me. I have never identified with being "pretty". As I have said many a time I know I am not a total dog, but don't think I am classically good looking either-I am of average looks in my opinion. Where does this opinion come from?

Firstly its growing up with people who told me that who I was, what I looked like wasn't enough. And the aversion to the word pretty has to do with hearing over and over You have such a pretty face if only blah blah blah bullshit. For a good many years I had trouble accepting a compliment because oftentimes it was a joke, or a way to play me to get what someone wanted from me. So early on I started working on the inner me and my talents and strengths that had nothing to do with my looks, because those around me didn't appreciate or value the way I looked and I learned to rely on those things rather than get by with my looks and sexuality as many of my thinner girlfriends did. As a result I have come to really like who I am and along with that an acceptance of the package that contains the essence of me. I do take care with my personal grooming, dress well for my body type, and for the most part like what I see in the mirror now. Every woman has issues with their bodies and they are different when we were teens, as young women, and now that I am in my late 40's the issues that come along with aging. However I look at the fact that I can still lead a busy and active life in this body, people think I am a decade younger than I am because the fat keeps the wrinkles off and I have a young attitude, and I have a husband, friends and family that think I am beautiful. And for me being pretty has more to do with who I am and how I look-its the total package that makes someone attractive.


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## KittyKitten (Sep 11, 2010)

Another thing that I find interesting, if you are pretty *but* intelligent and strong, some people tend to turn off to that. They do not know what to do with you because they can't place you in a box. It is like, "how dare you be beautiful and headstrong?" You have to be docile! Hell no!


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## BrownDown09 (Sep 12, 2010)

My friends tell me that I look cute but never pretty. Every time they say that all I hear you're average. Cute lost its meaning to me...I want something more grown up. Sorry about my whining


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## superodalisque (Sep 21, 2010)

i think my favorite compliment for a woman is beautiful. somehow its a word that can have a more expansive meaning. its not for just a night but for a lifetime and beyond. it is legend. maybe thats why so many people tend to choke on it and its hard for them to say. it carries some serious heft. saying something like "well she isn't THAT beautiful" doesn't really work very well. its easy to qualify cute or pretty but not beautiful. either its something a woman is or isn't. hair color isn't enough, eye color isn't enough, body shape or size isn't enough. when you're talking about a beautiful woman you have to be all in. there has to be some spirit in there somewhere. it doesn't go away with the body. its ageles and timeless. it works at 2 or 82. it lingers in people's minds forever. its not a passing thing limited to one aspect of a human being. it is an act, a thought, it can have a mind and an intellect, a wish,an idea and even an atmosphere. you can't own it. you can't really create it. it just exists. i love that word for a great woman.


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## Ample Pie (Sep 21, 2010)

I don't think I've ever been beautiful. I think I've rarely been pretty. I often pull off cute. I'm nearly always quirky.

And it isn't a "low self esteem" thing--it's just that I don't think I have the graces required to pull off such things. I have the _graces_ required to be nominated Punk Rock Prom Queen (the P.R.Prom King was a 6' inflatable penis--there are photos of us dancing somewhere online, gonna have to go look for those) but not the actual Prom Queen...and, mostly, I'm all right with that.


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## PeanutButterfly (Oct 4, 2010)

Just wanted to say I absolutely *love* this poetry slam and the poem itself. America puts so much pressure on women to look a certain way, to be classically "pretty". It's not even just the pressure we put on our celebrities but also on average every day people. Case in point, my cousin married one of the most awesome women I've ever met. She's funny, sweet, owns her own house, has an adoring husband who's always holding her hand and putting his arm around her (but not in a gross way), and a fantastic job at nasbico despite the fact that she's only 26. Yet, every time she comes up my dad feels the need to say "but she's fat" as if her not being the accepted definition of "pretty" somehow takes away all her success in life. If she wasn't a plus size women, well then she'd be allowed to embrace her success but until she drops 100 she's not entitled to these things. It makes me so angry and I correct him on it constantly but it's ingrained in his mind. As far as my mother goes, who's a plus size women herself she shares the same values as my dad. It's a shame that society can't recognize that your weight or your physical appearance does *not* define your success in life.

As for me, this is pretty much how society views me and I've come to terms with it. To my girlfriends I'm "pretty". They *always* call me "pretty" which I'm ok with but very rarely say "God Juli, I wish I had your boobs, legs, ect" but sometimes "I wish I had your eyes or blonde hair or awesome sense of humor " To normie guys I'm "cute" but never hot which once again I'm ok with because I wouldnt want to date a guy who didn't get my FAness anyway. And to Fa's I'm "beautiful, sexy, gorgeous," and one time I even got gotten "perfect". And I love these men for acknowledging what I see when I look in the mirror and for giving me some of the confidence I have today.


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## Cynthia (Oct 8, 2010)

I don’t see “cute,” “pretty,” and “beautiful” in terms of degree, with “beautiful” being the highest standard of attractiveness. To me, they’re distinctly different subjective qualities that can just as easily be based on character, mood, or relationships as on physical appearance.

And, heck, I often wonder why people are lambasted for having so-called low self esteem if they say, “I’m plain” or “I’m not pretty.” What’s really so horrible about that? Why do we find it so offensive and threatening? Labeling oneself as non-pretty, with no baggage ascribed to it, can be a powerful feminist statement &#8211; a way of saying, “I refuse to let you define my self worth in terms of physical appearance. I’m opting out of your beauty-judgment cycle.” 

In my 20s, I wanted to be alluring, but I was always a Cabbage Patch kid rather than a Barbie. But today in my 40s, I embrace being more of a “character actress” in the looks department &#8211; being comfy and quirky &#8211; not shackled to some need to be perceived as sexy. That’s not who I am. And that’s perfectly okay with me.


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## LovelyLiz (Oct 8, 2010)

Cynthia said:


> I dont see cute, pretty, and beautiful in terms of degree, with beautiful being the highest standard of attractiveness. To me, theyre distinctly different subjective qualities that can just as easily be based on character, mood, or relationships as on physical appearance.
> 
> And, heck, I often wonder *why people are lambasted for having so-called low self esteem if they say, Im plain or Im not pretty. Whats really so horrible about that? Why do we find it so offensive and threatening? *Labeling oneself as non-pretty, with no baggage ascribed to it, can be a powerful feminist statement  a way of saying, I refuse to let you define my self worth in terms of physical appearance. Im opting out of your beauty-judgment cycle.
> 
> In my 20s, I wanted to be alluring, but I was always a Cabbage Patch kid rather than a Barbie. But today in my 40s, I embrace being more of a character actress in the looks department  being comfy and quirky  not shackled to some need to be perceived as sexy. Thats not who I am. And thats perfectly okay with me.



Totally agree, great post. It's really annoying to me when, if I am talking with others about how we describe our looks, and I say that I'm not really "pretty" that people find the need to correct me and fawn all over me and tell me how I'm so pretty and blah blah blah. I know what a "pretty" face looks like, and I don't really have one. I'm not at all saying I'm ugly, I like the way I look and can ascribe other complimentary terms to my appearance - but "pretty" is just so not it.


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## thirtiesgirl (Oct 17, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> Totally agree, great post. It's really annoying to me when, if I am talking with others about how we describe our looks, and I say that I'm not really "pretty" that people find the need to correct me and fawn all over me and tell me how I'm so pretty and blah blah blah. I know what a "pretty" face looks like, and I don't really have one. I'm not at all saying I'm ugly, I like the way I look and can ascribe other complimentary terms to my appearance - but "pretty" is just so not it.



I've had the same experience, too. I wouldn't describe my face as 'pretty,' either, by the standard definition of the term. I have a misshapen nose and, when not smiling, I can look downright sullen and kind of scary. When I first started substitute teaching at the middle school level, I used to have kids ask me if I was mad all the time, simply based on my facial expression. It was a neutral expression - I wasn't mad; that's just how my face looks when I'm not smiling. So...'pretty'? Nah, not really how I'd describe myself. Intense/dramatic looking? Maybe. Kind of sullen? Yeah, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Pretty when smiling? Yeah. But I'm not pretty all the time because you're not going to catch me smiling 24-7. That's just ridiculous.


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