# The Happiness Setpoint



## Webmaster (Feb 14, 2012)

I just read something interesting that I hadn't heard of. Apparently, a psychology professor by the name of Sonya Lyubomirsky postulated that everyone has a genetically determined "happiness setpoint" that determines how happy and satisfied we are. Even if something terrific or something awful happens, we quickly revert to our genetic happiness setpoint.

The happiness setpoint, however, doesn't account for all of our happiness, only about 50%. Another 10% is determined by exterior factors such as money, social status and health. Which leaves 40% we can use to make ourselves happier, or not. Apparently, neurobiology experts agree and point to dopamine as an important substance that can impact the feeling of happiness. Physical activity increases the generation and flow of dopamine, as do engaging in hobbies we like, like making music, cooking, relationships, playing games or whatever. Those who manage to engage this flow of dopamine, and thus actively use that elusive 40% of happiness, are permanently happier than those who don't know what to do with themselves.

So there. Happiness. How does it all feel to you, and is it working out about the same way?


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## Fat Brian (Feb 14, 2012)

I've read this and completely agree, this explains people who are inexplicably miserable no matter how great their lives are and others who are happy even through the most trying circumstances. Evidently an unequal distribution of happiness is mostly genetic.


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## JSmirkingRevenge (Feb 14, 2012)

Hmm. An interesting theory to say the least! I think there is definintely some truth in there.

The hard part is finding those those dopamine inducing activities!

Really makes you look at what boredom really is. lol


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## Tad (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm also pretty certain that exactly what gets how much dopamine flowing is quite personal. For one person talking with friends made to wonders for how they are feeling, for another spending that same time alone in their workshop would be much better, while for a third playing soccer would be best, etc.

Part of growing to know ourselves is learning--and accepting--what makes us happy, and part of relationships is figuring out how to blend the different happiness-inducing activities (as well as accepting that you may well have different set-points).

ETA: and relevant to certain boards on Dimensions, I'm sure almost everyone gets some dopamine resulting from eating good food, but I strongly suspect that some people get a LOT more than others. I mean, some people really do seem to eat mostly for fuel, and just don't seem that interested in food most of the time--something I can hardly fathom myself!


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## CastingPearls (Feb 14, 2012)

A thought:

'Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.' - Ernest Hemingway

I find that profound and have also seen that borne out many times. Many people wish for nothing more than happiness and it eludes them. It eluded Hemingway. He took his own life.


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## AuntHen (Feb 14, 2012)

In conjunction with Lainey's post, I found this article to be interesting... (pay attention to the first person's comment at the bottom)


http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/73973/title/Thinking_better_with_depression


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 15, 2012)

fat9276 said:


> (pay attention to the first person's comment at the bottom)



The comment is to the effect that perhaps the world is really a depressing place, hence people who see things more clearly than the rest of us get depressed. But since there is very little we can do to change the world, it seems unintelligent to see things clearly if it's just going to bring you down: perhaps the smartest thing we can do is be dumb and enthusiastic!


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## bigmac (Feb 16, 2012)

fat9276 said:


> In conjunction with Lainey's post, I found this article to be interesting... (pay attention to the first person's comment at the bottom)
> 
> 
> http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/73973/title/Thinking_better_with_depression




_"Maybe the sad reality is that things are pretty depressing and unpleasant and depressed people just happen to see reality more clearly than others."_


Yes I think I can agree with the comment:

People who are happy all the time really creep me out.


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## AuntHen (Feb 18, 2012)

I would say personally if I focus on the negative instead of the positive in my life, sure I will be less content/happy. It's truthfully more about learned perspective not some gene I got from Grandma.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 18, 2012)

fat9276 said:


> I would say personally if I focus on the negative instead of the positive in my life, sure I will be less content/happy. It's truthfully more about learned perspective not some gene I got from Grandma.



Abraham Lincoln is reputed to have said, "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."

On the other hand, Lincoln is also reputed to have suffered from depression.


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## AuntHen (Feb 18, 2012)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Abraham Lincoln is reputed to have said, "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
> 
> On the other hand, Lincoln is also reputed to have suffered from depression.




What we call depression nowadays, ol' Abe would probably call *grief*. Plain and simple. The man went through a lot of hardships in his life but still managed to perservere somehow (not with Prozac).


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## thatgirl08 (Feb 18, 2012)

I don't believe in "deciding" to be happy. I believe in people doing things that make them happy and making decisions that are most likely to maximize happiness but I don't believe people can just flip a switch and be happy. People who perpetuate that kind of trite bullshit minimize the difficulties faced by other people. I wish I could just BE happy, but alas, mental illness prevents it.


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## Delightfully Peculiar (Feb 19, 2012)

I notice many people who seem in a perpetual funk, and whose happiness seems to depend on some set of standards that may or may not ever be attained. To me they suffer from the "if onlys"... "if only I had more money...a different body...a better job...etc." While it is great to have goals, these people seem to just complain and do nothing. For me happiness is just finding contentment in how things are in the here and now...the realization that it is really not so bad comparatively speaking. We all have our bad days, but if we never see the little joys in life, then are we really living at all?


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## Silver Fox (Feb 20, 2012)

In it's most basic terms, happiness can be defined as the successful progression towards a goal of one's own choosing. Beyond that there are many, many modifiers. There is some truth to what was talked about in the article to which Conrad refers. However, genetics has nothing to do with it. Human beings are composed of three main parts: Body, mind and spirit. YOU are not your body. YOU are a spirit who HAS a body and HAS a mind. There is nothing in the body that causes you to "feel" one way or another. It is rather the mind which impinges on the body. The mind is further divided into two parts: the analytical mind and the reactive mind. Any non-optimum or negative aspect to your condition stems from the reactive mind. As the spirit is immortal, it moves from body to body, but it drags the mind along with it. Anything about human behavior that the psychologists try to attribute to genetics really comes from this reactive mind. As the spirit brings it along with him lifetime after lifetime, it seems as though one is "born with it" and that is true, but again, genetics has nothing to do with it.


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## Fat Brian (Feb 20, 2012)

I have to disagree, genetics can have a great deal to do with perpetual depression or mental illness. It has been proven that deficiencies in certain neurotransmitters has the effect of causing a depressed state in an individual. The body is a very real part of who we are. There are some mental illnesses which can be observed on brain scans, clearly there is a structural component to some forms of depression.


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## moore2me (Feb 20, 2012)

*Moore2me's responses in Blue*



Dr. Feelgood said:


> The comment is to the effect that perhaps the world is really a depressing place, hence people who see things more clearly than the rest of us get depressed. But since there is very little we can do to change the world,* it seems unintelligent to see things clearly if it's just going to bring you down: perhaps the smartest thing we can do is be dumb and enthusiastic! *



*Doc has some good advice when he suggests to avoid things that "bring us down". I have been trying this technique for years and altho not a permanent fix for things that haunt us or torment our spirit, it will help to make our days easier to get through. For me, news stories about animal abuse really bother me. I avoid watching these stories, listening to them, or reading them. If someone starts talking about such a story - I insist they stop or I leave the room. I support the Humane Society but I will not watch cruelty to animals.*



Dr. Feelgood said:


> Abraham Lincoln is reputed to have said, "Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
> 
> On the other hand, Lincoln is also reputed to have suffered from depression.



*Lincoln's depression is a good example of how environment can be a contributor to depression. This man who was one of the smartest men and greatest leaders our land has ever produced had a beautiful and sensitive mind (just read his Gettysburg address if you doubt that). But, he had the horrible task of being the commander of a war that was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of young men on both sides of the conflict. If that wasn't enough to cause his depression, his young son died, which in turn caused Lincoln's wife approach insanity herself. Lincoln's soul was indeed tormented by his environment, nevertheless he achieved greatness.*



thatgirl08 said:


> I don't believe in "deciding" to be happy. I believe in people doing things that make them happy and making decisions that are most likely to maximize happiness but I don't believe people can just flip a switch and be happy. People who perpetuate that kind of trite bullshit minimize the difficulties faced by other people. I wish I could just BE happy, but alas, mental illness prevents it.



*Thatgirl, I understand your point about trite bullshit minimizing the difficulties faced by people with mental illnesses. And you are correct in that a person with a classic mental illness cannot cure themselves anymore than someone with brain cancer can operate on themselves. However, for the average person who does not have a serious mental illness, there are somethings that can help them have a better life. Many of the OPs on this thread have mentioned some assistance techniques. There are more ways to make our spirit heal, I can talk about some of these later. * 



Delightfully Peculiar said:


> *I notice many people who seem in a perpetual funk, and whose happiness seems to depend on some set of standards that may or may not ever be attained. To me they suffer from the "if onlys"... "if only I had more money...a different body...a better job...etc." While it is great to have goals, these people seem to just complain and do nothing.* For me happiness is just finding contentment in how things are in the here and now...the realization that it is really not so bad comparatively speaking. We all have our bad days, but if we never see the little joys in life, then are we really living at all?



*Dear Peculiar, I think you are onto something here with the "if onlys". What drives us into frenzys in these cases is advertising thru Hollyweird via. TV, Movies, and other social media. We are bombarded by their sales pitches all day long. Advertising is constantly using sexy models to tell us what to wear, what to eat, how to smell, what to watch, and a host of other things. The average person (be it adult or child) does not have the money to buy all this stuff they see advertised. So, the the person watching gets sad when they realize they are not going to find the contentment that the model on TV appears to have.*




Fat Brian said:


> I have to disagree, genetics can have a great deal to do with perpetual depression or mental illness. It has been proven that deficiencies in certain neurotransmitters has the effect of causing a depressed state in an individual. The body is a very real part of who we are. *There are some mental illnesses which can be observed on brain scans, clearly there is a structural component to some forms of depression .*



*FatBrian is absolutely right in that some mental illnesses can be observed on brain scans. I happen to have multiple sclerosis (MS) and it is a disease of the brain and can be seen on a MRI. We really do not know if MS is inherited or not - the disease is too new and there are too many variables that have not been puzzled out yet. The best guess tho is that it may be a combo plate of heredity, environment, exposure, and luck (or lack of).

And yes, there is some depression associated with MS. My doctor explained that the depression may be organic in the brain damage, or may be a result or loss of previous lifestyles, or grief over the chronic, incurable disease. However, these causes of unhappiness are somewhat treatable by drugs, therapy, and understanding to live with the disease.*


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## Silver Fox (Feb 21, 2012)

MS is a physical disease with physical symptoms. Most so-called mental illnesses are not and do not have any physical test that can be done to prove their existence. That does NOT meant that the person is not suffering and has a real problem. Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the population has succumbed to the lies they have been told about "chemical imbalances", etc. Ask any psychiatrist if he has ever cured anyone. They all know that they haven't and have no hope of doing so. Yet they keep giving people dangerous drugs which a harvard study has just shown has no better success rate than placebos. Only thing is, placebos don't have dangerous side effects. Psych drugs do. Also, psych drugs make billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies and the psychiatrists who prescribe them. Many studies have shown that antidepressants actually _increase_ suicidality as well as violent behavior. I am 57 years old and when I was a kid, you never heard of someone walking into a school or post office and killing a bunch of people. As far as we know, every mass shooting in the past dozen or so years has involved someone who was on some kind of prescription psychotropic drug. And has anybody heard of the skyrocketing suicide rate of our returning veterans? Guess what? The increase in their suicide rate coincides with the increase in prescribing them antidepressants. Psychiatry is a corrupt pseudo-science which is in bed with "Big Pharma" and needs to be eradicated.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 21, 2012)

Silver Fox said:


> MS is a physical disease with physical symptoms. Most so-called mental illnesses are not and do not have any physical test that can be done to prove their existence. That does NOT meant that the person is not suffering and has a real problem. Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the population has succumbed to the lies they have been told about "chemical imbalances", etc. Ask any psychiatrist if he has ever cured anyone. They all know that they haven't and have no hope of doing so. Yet they keep giving people dangerous drugs which a harvard study has just shown has no better success rate than placebos. Only thing is, placebos don't have dangerous side effects. Psych drugs do. Also, psych drugs make billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies and the psychiatrists who prescribe them. Many studies have shown that antidepressants actually _increase_ suicidality as well as violent behavior. I am 57 years old and when I was a kid, you never heard of someone walking into a school or post office and killing a bunch of people. As far as we know, every mass shooting in the past dozen or so years has involved someone who was on some kind of prescription psychotropic drug. And has anybody heard of the skyrocketing suicide rate of our returning veterans? Guess what? The increase in their suicide rate coincides with the increase in prescribing them antidepressants. Psychiatry is a corrupt pseudo-science which is in bed with "Big Pharma" and needs to be eradicated.


Link for that Harvard study, please?

Most psychiatrists don't make millions of dollars nor do they claim to cure mental illness. Many physical illnesses don't have a cure either but we don't blame the medical community for them. All drugs, ALL DRUGS have side effects and many have potentially lethal side effects, including OTCs like aspirin. 

When you were a kid, news didn't travel as fast as it does now that we have the internet and people were locked up in asylums for things as common as PMS. There were soldiers in the Civil War, World War I and II, The Korean and Vietnam wars who absolutely did have documented traumatic experiences whether or not the science of psychiatry (it IS a science in spite of your beliefs) had yet to put a name to PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) and other mental illnesses and disorders. 

Hundreds of thousands of people have benefited from therapy (with and without psychotropic drugs) having sought it out because there is LESS of a stigma assigned to depression and anxiety disorders than the good old days when they 'just locked them away'.

Your 'reactive mind' statements upthread require far more of a belief than an actual science, a belief system created by a science-fiction writer, no less, and it's ironic that you would call a science, fiction but a word created by a science-fiction writer, fact. 

Any reliable studies you can cite that haven't been funded by the Church of Scientology?


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## toni (Feb 21, 2012)

bigmac said:


> _"Maybe the sad reality is that things are pretty depressing and unpleasant and depressed people just happen to see reality more clearly than others."_
> 
> 
> Yes I think I can agree with the comment:
> ...



Haha I totally agree with you!

Ugh, this thread scares me. I don't want to be anything like some of the miserable women in my family.


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## moore2me (Feb 21, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> Link for that Harvard study, please?
> 
> Most psychiatrists don't make millions of dollars nor do they claim to cure mental illness. Many physical illnesses don't have a cure either but we don't blame the medical community for them. All drugs, ALL DRUGS have side effects and many have potentially lethal side effects, including OTCs like aspirin. * AMEN SISTER, YOU PREACH THE TRUTH!*
> *
> ...






Silver Fox said:


> MS is a physical disease with physical symptoms.
> 
> *My understanding is the symptoms are a mix. Problems in thought processing, speaking, and errors in short term memory are functions of the brain. I also have formications (feelings of being stung by wasps) and disturbances of color vision that are different in the right eye and the left eye. On occasion, I have temporarily forgotten essential skills like how to fill out a check or work a remote control. (So far, these lapses have been restored to date.)*
> 
> ...



*If you don't think things were violent in the 1940's and 50's and even the years before that you were living a sheltered life. Of course there were shootings, beatings, lynchings, burnings, killings, and beatings. These acts just were not broadcast on the TV news. Instead, most of the violence was carried out in the woods, in a field, in a jail cell, on a lonely road, on a river bank, or in a gang hangout. Human nature has not changed that much in a half century. What has changed, as Casting Pearls mentioned, is media coverage of world events. Now we see almost everything that goes on from wreck on the freeway to a young girl that is trampled in Egypt - the same day - in living color on TV.*


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## Captain Save (Feb 21, 2012)

The idea of a happiness setpoint sounds pretty interesting. I've heard that ninety percent of life is how one reacts to it, and if that's the case then the key to happiness might be gravitating towards things that are enjoyable and satisfying in some way as this stimulates the dopamine mentioned earlier, while maintaining minimal exposure to things that accomplish no productive results nor stimulate any dopamine whenever possible. Part of that is each person knowing and accepting what does it for them, whether it's working on cadavers in a laboratory, sitting in front of a computer screen, manual labor with chainsaws in the great outdoors, working with children, etc. These things are different for everyone and sometimes difficult to accept; no one ever said happiness was easy. How many of us have heard it said that happiness is having a career or job you enjoy? 

Personally, I haven't found a job I particularly enjoy; it's always been about finding something good about the assignment I've been given. Ultimately, I've found a great deal of happiness in life in general is being honest with myself, accepting myself for who I am, accepting others, and adapting my outlook to deal with whatever comes my way.


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## Dromond (Feb 21, 2012)

Silver Fox said:


> MS is a physical disease with physical symptoms. Most so-called mental illnesses are not and do not have any physical test that can be done to prove their existence. That does NOT meant that the person is not suffering and has a real problem. Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the population has succumbed to the lies they have been told about "chemical imbalances", etc. Ask any psychiatrist if he has ever cured anyone. They all know that they haven't and have no hope of doing so. Yet they keep giving people dangerous drugs which a harvard study has just shown has no better success rate than placebos. Only thing is, placebos don't have dangerous side effects. Psych drugs do. Also, psych drugs make billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies and the psychiatrists who prescribe them. Many studies have shown that antidepressants actually _increase_ suicidality as well as violent behavior. I am 57 years old and when I was a kid, you never heard of someone walking into a school or post office and killing a bunch of people. As far as we know, every mass shooting in the past dozen or so years has involved someone who was on some kind of prescription psychotropic drug. And has anybody heard of the skyrocketing suicide rate of our returning veterans? Guess what? The increase in their suicide rate coincides with the increase in prescribing them antidepressants. Psychiatry is a corrupt pseudo-science which is in bed with "Big Pharma" and needs to be eradicated.



What you don't know about mental health would fill an encyclopedia.


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## lovelocs (Feb 22, 2012)

Lainey- I will see you your Hemingway and raise you a Fitzgerald:

"This is what I think now: that the natural state of the sentient adult is a _qualified_ unhappiness."




Also, ever write a big old long response, then erase the crap and go do something else? :huh:


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## moore2me (Feb 22, 2012)

Lovelocs, Not Lainey here - but someone who is even more verbose and sometimes butts into other's public conversations. 

_In answer to your question, "Also, ever write a big old long response, then erase the crap and go do something else?"_* my answer is a big, resounding YES! Lots of times,* I use Abraham Lincoln's advice in writing messages critical of people or their actions. He said after he writes an admonishment, he kept it in his desk for 3 days prior to sending the letter. During that time, he thinks about his text and decides if he really wants to say those things. Many times, he decided against sending the letter out and never released it -saving a subordinate's career.

Not that I am in any way equal to Lincoln, but I respect his sage advice. Partly due to his thinking, I only post or mail about half of the material I write. (_I can hear a huge sigh of relief from half of the people at DIMs.) _I leave most of my words to age or mellow for a few days to re-read them or see how they sound in the light of a new day. The exceptions do exist tho. This post is one example - written this morning, posted this morning to let you know that* Casting Pearls is one heck of a writer. She can outdo most I know and she has a substantial knowledge base that backs up what she posts about. *

And some of us love to write just as much as others love to cook, or love to sing, or love to talk on the cell phone constantly. I have to admit, writing is more challenging these days because of twitter, Facebook, or texting. It is hard (sometimes painful) to cut out words in our writing. Telling me to keep my posts below 140 words would be like telling someone else to keep all their phone conversations to less than 3 minutes. Ridiculous!

And last but not least, just because writing is lengthy, doesn't mean it's "crap". Writers I admire very much could not stop without writing books that were wonderfully long and detailed. A few examples are . . . 

Stephen King - _The Stand_
Victor Hugo - _Les Miserable_
Tolstoy - _War and Peace_
Theodore Dreiser - _An American Tragedy_
Anne Rice - _Interview With The Vampire_
Homer - _The Iliad and the Odyssey_
Larry McMurty - _Lonesome Dove_
Charles Dickens - _David Copperfield_
Margaret Mitchell - _Gone With The Wind_
Upton Sinclair- _The Jungle_
Frank McCourt - _Angela's Ashes_


*My vote is "Lainey - You Go Girl!" *


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## Russell Williams (Feb 22, 2012)

One of the far too many times that Louise was in a hospital she was in a double room and Louise was in bed away from the window. The woman who was closest to the window complained about most everything and one of the constant topics of her complaints was the ugly view from the window. Waking hour after waking hour Louise listened her complain to anybody who came into the room about how awful the view from the window was. I brought my autistic daughter Lori to visit Louise. Loretta enters the room quickly goes to the window, looks out, and quite loudly says, "Wow, what a wonderful view!"

I resisted the temptation to say to Lori, "Yes Lori, it is truly a beautiful view but not everybody understands how beautiful it is."


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## CastingPearls (Feb 22, 2012)

moore2me said:


> Lovelocs, Not Lainey here - but someone who is even more verbose and sometimes butts into other's public conversations.
> 
> _In answer to your question, "Also, ever write a big old long response, then erase the crap and go do something else?"_* my answer is a big, resounding YES! Lots of times,* I use Abraham Lincoln's advice in writing messages critical of people or their actions. He said after he writes an admonishment, he kept it in his desk for 3 days prior to sending the letter. During that time, he thinks about his text and decides if he really wants to say those things. Many times, he decided against sending the letter out and never released it -saving a subordinate's career.
> 
> ...



TOO MUCH!!! LOL Thank you but I don't belong in (or anywhere near) the same list with them (but may one day, if the Wheel of Fortune keeps turning in my favor lol) Hugs.



lovelocs said:


> Lainey- I will see you your Hemingway and raise you a Fitzgerald:
> 
> "This is what I think now: that the natural state of the sentient adult is a _qualified_ unhappiness."
> 
> Also, ever write a big old long response, then erase the crap and go do something else? :huh:



Great quote and YES all the time.


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## AnnMarie (Feb 22, 2012)

Silver Fox said:


> MS is a physical disease with physical symptoms. Most so-called mental illnesses are not and do not have any physical test that can be done to prove their existence. That does NOT meant that the person is not suffering and has a real problem. Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the population has succumbed to the lies they have been told about "chemical imbalances", etc. Ask any psychiatrist if he has ever cured anyone. They all know that they haven't and have no hope of doing so. Yet they keep giving people dangerous drugs which a harvard study has just shown has no better success rate than placebos. Only thing is, placebos don't have dangerous side effects. Psych drugs do. Also, psych drugs make billions of dollars for the pharmaceutical companies and the psychiatrists who prescribe them. Many studies have shown that antidepressants actually _increase_ suicidality as well as violent behavior. I am 57 years old and when I was a kid, you never heard of someone walking into a school or post office and killing a bunch of people. As far as we know, every mass shooting in the past dozen or so years has involved someone who was on some kind of prescription psychotropic drug. And has anybody heard of the skyrocketing suicide rate of our returning veterans? Guess what? The increase in their suicide rate coincides with the increase in prescribing them antidepressants. Psychiatry is a corrupt pseudo-science which is in bed with "Big Pharma" and needs to be eradicated.




You can't "cure" diabetes either, but it's a physical deficiency. Just because you can test for insulin doesn't make that deficiency any more real than one that causes your brain to under produce any number of chemicals and reactions that help with mood, concentration, reactions to stress or fear, etc. 


Are things over prescribed and used when they may not be needed? Yes. But that doesn't make the use of them, by those who really need them, any less valid. It's not as simple as "it's an industry machine and no one needs them" - it's just not. 

So, as someone who's been on the other end of a suicidal person who's meds stopped working, and seeing the change when meds ARE working - I know of what I speak. It's not just mood and will power, it's real and acting like it isn't is belittling anyone who suffers from issues. You're furthering a stigma that everyone with these very real issues needs to pull them up by their boot straps and just "get on with it".


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## Webmaster (Feb 24, 2012)

Ever since I put up the original post, I've been following the thread and thinking about the happiness topic. Overall, I feel that simply assigning percentages to what makes for a person's tendency to be happy or unhappy is probably overly simplistic. 

I do think there are people who seem perennially miserable and unhappy whereas others seem perky and upbeat almost all the time.

I do think that money, social status and health attribute more than just 10% to overall happiness. While money, social status and health won't guarantee happiness, I do think they can have a significant impact on life.

I can accept that about 50% is genetically determined, but do we really have 40% left open to do with as we please? If so, self-improvement and learning how to be happy would be far more important than money, social status and health, which seems unlikely. 

I do think love can have a big impact on happiness. Romantic issues can make us very unhappy or _very_ happy, and a well-functioning relationship can do wonders for overall happiness over long periods of time.

Are drugs the answer (the medical kind)? I'd say only if a person's natural chemical balance is out of whack beyond the shadow of a doubt. Then medication may help in restoring what the person's natural balance would be. Anything beyond that will eventually backfire.

When I look at my own life, I've often wondered what affects my own happiness, and whether or not I am a basically happy or unhappy person. I've never come to a full conclusion. 

Are you able to figure out how inherently (genetically) happy you are, how much happier or unhappier money, social status and health make you, and how much leeway you might have to make yourself happier?


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## fat hiker (Feb 24, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> A thought:
> 
> 'Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.' - Ernest Hemingway
> 
> I find that profound and have also seen that borne out many times. Many people wish for nothing more than happiness and it eludes them. It eluded Hemingway. He took his own life.



I think Hemingway hung out with the wrong crowd - I'm in engineering, and I know an awful lot of very intelligent AND very happy people. They teach, they build, they troubleshoot, and they enjoy life.

Hemingway's crowd, on the other hand, did a lot of drugs, searched desperately for 'experiences', and felt like they had stifled creativity. They also seemed to equate intelligence with clever word play rather than the ability to do, to make, to fix and to teach. So I wouldn't take him too seriously. 

Any other happy scientists and engineers out there?


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## Fat Brian (Feb 24, 2012)

You hit on something very interesting, creative people tend to be miserable most of the time where intelligent but more analytical people tend to be more fulfilled. There is something about artistic types that tend to feel oppressed and stifled by everyday life and they seek out drugs or other vices to try to feel something or fill an unseen void. On the other hand, people who are able to see the beauty in the simple things of life seem to not need such things.


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## Yakatori (Feb 24, 2012)

^Most people are enriched by the opportunity for meaningful work. Whether you are analytical or creative is not as important as whether or not you've met with an outlet and challenge that's appropriate to your ability.

Consider, also, that Hemingway drank heavily. A depressant. And his father committed suicide as well.


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## moore2me (Feb 25, 2012)

fat hiker said:


> I think Hemingway hung out with the wrong crowd - I'm in engineering, and I know an awful lot of very intelligent AND very happy people. They teach, they build, they troubleshoot, and they enjoy life.
> 
> *Hemingway's crowd, on the other hand, did a lot of drugs, searched desperately for 'experiences', and felt like they had stifled creativity. They also seemed to equate intelligence with clever word play rather than the ability to do, to make, to fix and to teach*. So I wouldn't take him too seriously.



*Moore's counterpoints in Blue.

The above sentence I have bolded is loaded with booby traps. *

*First one* * is about Hemingway's crowd of friends being a bad influence or just plain druggies. The truth is very far from your allusion. First let me name just a few Hemingway friends of whom you are talking about . . . .

Pablo Picasso
James Joyce
Gertrude Stein

(Hell's angels all of them, right?)

*
*Second problem with the post is that Hemingway's "little sewing circle" was looking for experiences*. *Below are some of Hemingways real life experiences (jobs) - I think this is more than enough to satisfy several people's desire for excitement and the blood & guts of real life. (In fact, most people on this board will never rack up this florid a resume .) Below are a few of his experiences . . .

- Voluteered to serve in WWI. Worked the first part of the war as an paramedic/ambulance driver picking up bodies. He was then wounded with shrapnel in both legs and sent home.

- Also served in WWII in Europe, partly as a correspondent. He was in London during the bombings, he was in Normandy during the US invasion, he was at the Battle of the Bulge, and he was in France when Paris was finally liberated from the Nazis. He caught pneumonia in Germany and was returned home to the US.

Hemingway went back to Europe again to report and work in the Spanish Civil War. (This particularly bloody war has been immortalized by Goya in paintings and in a fictional movie "Labrynth".) Is that enough life experience for you? Yes? Well Papa H. was not finished yet. He took trips to Africa and Cuba. In Africa, he was in two separate plane crashes that could have killed most people. In the second crash, the plane exploded in air after takeoff. Papa was burned and his spinal torn so that it leaked spinal fluid.

Need more life experiences? You bet 'ya.
On one of Hemingway's Africa trips, he caught amoebic dysentery. This caused him to become so ill with diarrhea that he prolapsed his intestines. He was immediately flown back to the US for treatment. (Moore's note - I have had to put puppies to sleep when this happened to them after diarrhea illness.)

And late in life, all these injuries took a great toll on his body. He was in pain most of the time & frequently bedridden. He was filled with depression and had regular sessions of electroshock therapy. He also self medicated with alcohol. But Hemingway had witnessed so much death, mutilation, inhumanity, and crimes against others during his lifetime by serving or working in three major wars - he must have been constantly tormented by his memories. Nothing kept his demons at bay - he finally killed himself in his home using a shotgun. Also, his family had a major problem with suicidal behavior as Yakatori mentioned. In four generations, five adults had killed themselves. *

*This is the fourth point that I believe you are mistaken in making.*


fat hiker said:


> "They (Hemingway and friends) also seemed to equate intelligence with clever word play rather than the ability to do, to make, to fix and to teach. So I wouldn't take him too seriously."


*
I believe written words that survive longer than the writer does and are shared throughout the world are a job well done. And this is not just my opinion - Hemingway won the Nobel Prize in Literature. Plus, these books are used as teaching tools in high schools and colleges throughout our civilization. Most of us have had at least one of Hemingway's books taught in classes. Examples of such text are . . . 

- The Old Man and the Sea
- For Whom the Bell Tolls
- Fairwell to Arms
- Islands in the Stream
- The Sun Also Rises
*


fat hiker said:


> Any other happy scientists and engineers out there?



*Finally, let me say my deceased father was a Civil Engineer with the US Army Corps of Engineers. In this girl's eyes (and a lot of other folks around my area) he was one heck of a wonderful man. Not only did he build and trouble shoot, but he helped others every chance he got*.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 25, 2012)

fat hiker said:


> I think Hemingway hung out with the wrong crowd - I'm in engineering, and I know an awful lot of very intelligent AND very happy people. They teach, they build, they troubleshoot, and they enjoy life.
> 
> HEY! Small world! I was married to an engineer! He was everything you said and more. So.much.more. As in, he had a face he showed for his colleagues, friends and neighbors, and then another face that was far darker than anyone could imagine. And....he's not an anomaly. There's quite a few out there like that. No profession or interest grants immunity from depression.
> 
> ...



I know they're out there, thankfully. I wish more people were happy. No one really really wants to be unhappy in spite of what's being said here. There are unhappy scientists and engineers too. No one is immune. 



Also, upthread, Webmaster mentioned that only if someone had a chemical imbalance could he see drugs helping....I respectfully disagree because it excludes anyone who isn't chemically or organically depressed. It excludes anyone who's dealing with a traumatic event or crisis (natural disaster anyone? or witnessing the aftermath of a violent act, like many in law enforcement do every day? or being the victim of abuse? or accident victims? --none are chemically induced but all may benefit from chemical help and therapy.

If anything, I don't get a sense that those who are anywhere from inconvenienced to tortured by depression thought they were geniuses or creative BECAUSE OF depression or lack of happiness but rather that it seemed to often go hand in hand. BUT I do get a sense of superiority whether deliberate or unconscious that THEY can be happy and it's a choice or that unhappy people can't 'see it' --they CAN see it. They can see and appreciate the beauty of life, the view out the window, the breeze on the air, the perfume of a garden, etc. They also feel sad. Why is that so hard to consider?


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## moore2me (Feb 26, 2012)

Webmaster said:


> I just read something interesting that I hadn't heard of. Apparently, a psychology professor by the name of Sonya Lyubomirsky postulated that everyone has a genetically predetermined "happiness setpoint" that determines how happy and satisfied we are. Even if something terrific or something awful happens, we quickly revert to our genetic happiness setpoint.
> 
> *The happiness setpoint, however, doesn't account for all of our happiness, only about 50%. Another 10% is determined by exterior factors such as money, social status and health.* Which leaves 40% we can use to make ourselves happier, or not. (snipped)
> 
> So there. Happiness. How does it all feel to you, and is it working out about the same way?



*I think Ms Lyubomirsky is way low on her estimate that our happiness is 10% determined by exterior factors such as money, social status, and health.* In teachers' training, we studied a concept called Maslow's hierarchy. Maslow suggested that students cannot settle down and teach their school lessons unless the child has certain needs met. Not only can we use this hierarchy to help diagnose learning problems in schools, but it can tell us what we need on-board before happiness is possible. These basic needs we all have are:

1. First, we need food, water, sleep, food, etc.
2. Next, we need personal safety, health, employment, etc.
3. Third, need to belong to a group or need friends, family, sexual intimacy.
4. Fourth, we need self- esteem, confidence, and respect of others.
5. Last need to be filled is likely more esoteric, cognitive learning, morality, creativity, and problem solving.

If you look at this pyramid (see figure below), what most of us call happiness usually occurs in level 3, or 4, or 5. By my rough estimate at least half of our basic, elemental needs have to be met before we can even begin to think of being happy. (Figure from view-source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs)

And if you consider people around the world, there are many that rarely rise above level one & two. Fewer still rise above level 4. To bring this down to what we see every day, the folks in Beirut, or Afghanistan, or Somalia do not have personal safety, some do not have adequate food, and many do not have medical care. The women especially are often treated as chattel, donkeys and sheep may be treated better. *These people may never worry about being happy. They worry about getting food, getting firewood, getting water, not getting raped, or not getting mutilated. *

Then, consider the poor in third world countries; they often inhabit slums around the world like in Cairo, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Calcutta, Bosnia/Serbia, Beijing, and Taiwan. These people may not spend much time being happy either. They most likely want food, clean water, for their kids to not be sick, a few pieces of adequate clothes, and to grow up in peace.

*The way I see the Happiness Set point, happiness is a luxury for those of us in affluent countries.* I imagine a good part of the world that live under the stress of war, poverty, disease, or cruel despots rarely worry about being happy.


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## Webmaster (Feb 26, 2012)

moore2me said:


> ...The way I see the Happiness Set point, happiness is a luxury for those of us in affluent countries.[/B] I imagine a good part of the world that live under the stress of war, poverty, disease, or cruel despots rarely worry about being happy.



Those are all excellent points you made, but I don't think happiness is entirely a luxury that only few can afford. Witness the many who are unhappy no matter how much they have, and also witness how little can make a child happy. I also recall when I was in the military in the field and our world was essentially reduced to 18 hours of abuse and then crashing in a tiny bunk for a few hours before it started all over. Somehow, we all managed to make those bunks home with a few pictures and a book or two, and I vividly recall a sense of happiness. I do think happiness is scalable.


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