# Discrimination on the Dance Floor



## EMH1701 (Apr 28, 2012)

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/plus-sized-college-student-claims-discrimination-at-bar/

Have you seen this yet?


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## Jack Secret (Apr 28, 2012)

I think the bouncer got it right. She really isn't pretty enough And I wouldn't be either! We ain't all pretty, people :sad:



EMH1701 said:


> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/plus-sized-college-student-claims-discrimination-at-bar/
> 
> Have you seen this yet?


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## EMH1701 (Apr 28, 2012)

Um..you really aren't serious, are you? 

It is people like this who 1. make fat people want to hide at home and never go out anywhere, 2. make fat people want to commit suicide, and 3. make fat people want to get surgery just to fit in.

We should not have to fit into a thin society. We should be allowed to be ourselves, period.


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## Isa (Apr 29, 2012)

True discrimination would be denial of entrance into the bar to begin with, it appears no one did that.


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## FA Punk (Apr 29, 2012)

Well this isn't worth making a big deal over, so what she wasn't allowed to dance on some bar? I like to know how much she had to drink before that happened.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah. Discrimination is being denied some sort of public access or opportunity. I think she was insulted, not reality discriminated against. If I go to a bar and the bartender is female and flirting with male customers and buying them shots, I may get annoyed but I'm not calling it sexism or any sort of human rights violation. You have to choose your battles and I'm not sure dancing on a platform in a bar is really an important one.


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## Yakatori (Apr 29, 2012)

Jack Secret said:


> "_I think the bouncer got it right. She really isn't pretty enough_"


But how can you possibly know that without comparing her directly, side by side, against the other girls already admitted to the platform?

Remember, we have two different words (at least) for "pretty" and "thin" because they are essentially two different things/criteria. Not to say that there isn't or couldn't be some relationship or overlap between the two. But in saying either "pretty" or "pregnant" he's either establishing or applying certain standard or ideal. And in doing so, it then makes it perfectly fair & reasonable for you or I or anyone to question or challenge the validity or consistency or equity of that standard or, and of no less importance, of how it's applied.

Now, to be fair, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it came to light that the bouncer was just annoyed at the fact the she tried again after first being turned away. And that, per management's indications, it's basically his prerogative to remove patrons from any part of the venue at any given time. And for whatever reason he or management deems appropriate. And without any explanation. Or that the girl is a known & regularly annoying patron. Or that she's just not a part of the exclusive clique of the most-favored patrons. 

Moreover, in certain types of establishments; or, really, in any establishment; it's fairly common to extend a degree of latitude to certain trusted employees to, in turn, grant some types of exclusive privileges for especially valued customers. And; really, for security-purposes among certain others, there's nothing wrong with that type of seemingly-arbitrary criteria as to award or deny certain exclusive types of priviledges...Right? 

But, c'mon; on the face of it, that's not really what we're talking about here...


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## FA Punk (Apr 29, 2012)

Yakatori said:


> But how can you possibly know that without comparing her directly, side by side, against the other girls already admitted to the platform?
> 
> Remember, we have two different words (at least) for "pretty" and "thin" because they are essentially two different things/criteria. Not to say that there isn't or couldn't be some relationship or overlap between the two. But in saying either "pretty" or "pregnant" he's either establishing or applying certain standard or ideal. And in doing so, it then makes it perfectly fair & reasonable for you or I or anyone to question or challenge the validity or consistency or equity of that standard or, and of no less importance, of how it's applied.
> 
> ...



I think Jack was more or less just kidding, to me the story seems to be missing a few details, like I said before I like to know how much she had to drink before she tried to climb on the bar for a second time, mybe she wasn't too drunk but mybe she got mouthy with the bouncer and thats the real reason he wouldn't let her up there.


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## Jack Secret (Apr 29, 2012)

I wasn't kidding but I wasn't being all that serious either. However, from my experience at nightclubs (depending on how exclusive it is) only the hot ones get the nod to get in the place/dance on the platform. She didn't strike me as all that attractive So I would imagine The bouncer would turn her away And turn me away as well. I am not one of the beautiful people either!



FA Punk said:


> I think Jack was more or less just kidding, to me the story seems to be missing a few details, like I said before I like to know how much she had to drink before she tried to climb on the bar for a second time, mybe she wasn't too drunk but mybe she got mouthy with the bouncer and thats the real reason he wouldn't let her up there.


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## LeoGibson (Apr 29, 2012)

You know, I may be wrong here, but to me it is more indicative of the way our society has gotten over the last 20 or so years of the everyone gets a trophy mentality. Do I think the bouncer probably didn't find her attractive for whatever reason, granted it was probably mostly due to her size, yep he most likely did. Is that insulting to her, yep, but I don't think it's a big discrimination issue because in a situation like that the bouncer has the right to allow what he or the club management has instructed him to allow on the featured spots. As others have pointed out, as much as we may not want to believe it, not everybody always gets everything they want. Some women and men are better looking than others regardless of whatever size they are, and it is a subjective scale to whoever makes that judgment. You don't get a prize just for showing up.

If it was me and I was insulted by something as such, I think I would just not return and I'd tell as many people as would listen how bad of a place it is. But since entry to the club and service inside the club was not barred, then I don't feel it was legal discrimination.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 29, 2012)

Besides controlling general chaos and havoc, bouncers and door people are employed by management to allow certain types in and keep certain types out. That is the prerogative of management and if a bouncer or door person doesn't do their job, they're out. Do bouncers go power crazy? Well, there's a certain type of person that gravitates to those jobs ANYWAY. Clubs are known for discriminating against people for wearing the wrong label, so I'm not surprised at this. What DOES surprise me is that the girl kept insisting, and going back and to me that's just masochistic. Yes, it had to hurt like a bitch but why keep poking a stick in the wound? We all pick and choose our battles but to me this was just an ant hill and not worth it. Clubs are notorious for this behavior--other than making the news because it's a slow news week, it wasn't even newsworthy, IMO.

EDT: I'm with Leo on that I would tell everyone I know (but not make a career of it) and in similar situations I have. Did it make a difference? Who knows but it made me feel better. What she did, didn't seem to give her any satisfaction and as Einstein says, The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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## Surlysomething (Apr 29, 2012)

They might also not be the sturdiest of stands to dance on and they don't want anyone to get here if it gives way.

Could it be handled differently, sure. But c'mon, this girl should have just used her brain.


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## Gemini_Dreamz (Apr 29, 2012)

I think it's silly because more likely than not at least in my city more big women get more attention and dances from men than skinnier women.


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## Surlysomething (Apr 29, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> They might also not be the sturdiest of stands to dance on and they don't want anyone to get hurt if it gives way.
> 
> Could it be handled differently, sure. But c'mon, this girl should have just used her brain.




they don't want anyone to get HURT...sorry for the typo


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## MrSensible (Apr 29, 2012)

I guess I'm in the minority here, but for me, this is a prime example of just how flawed our society is on the subject of aesthetics. "Beauty" is a completely subjective term, so to say that "she's not pretty enough" is only one opinion. People have largely different tastes from one another (I think this site itself is pretty indicative of that), so to disallow someone to take part in an activity with their friends, simply because that person isn't considered to fit some idealized, pseudo-standard of beauty seems like the definition of discrimination to me. What exactly would it have harmed if they had let her up there? Sure, you could argue that it wouldn't have supported her weight, but in the article it said she even waited until others had left before trying to get up there again, so the capacity shouldn't have been an issue.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's legal discrimination or that any privately owned business has the moral obligation to let anyone and everyone join in on said activity, but regardless, it always saddens me to see examples like this. Unfortunately, since the majority of people seem to share this (imo) warped, strictly exclusive image of beauty, many people have to suffer from it, and I think it's pathetic, quite frankly. Let people live their lives and enjoy it.


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## moore2me (Apr 29, 2012)

There was several discussions between Ms Jordan and the bouncer about whether or not she was pregnant. She said "no". He "yes". She said "it's just fat", and on and on . . . .Then several DIMMERS ask about how much she had been drinking, etc.

It is important to restate for all the people of reproductive age that women who think, suspect, or know they are pregnant should never drink alcoholic beverages. *Drinking by the mother will cross the placental barrier and can damage the unborn baby. It can damage the baby's brain, physical appearance, personality, and cause a deformity cause Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Most authorities on this subject say the mother should not even have one alcoholic drink while pregnant.*

I think this is important enough for everyone in this little story to understand that the real hazard here is the chance that pregnant women dance and drink in this club. There should be an education program set up at the bar and on the community level to put a stop to this. There is absolutely no excuse for kids in this day and time to be sentenced to a life with this untreatable birth defect so mom can boogie for a couple of hours. I have taught kids in school that had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and they have IQs in the lower levels of their class (usually making D's and F's, they look different from normal kids, they are smaller in size, their personalitites are not like normal kids). We are still in the research stages about finding out just what stages of the fetus are in the greatest danger. (The theory is that first trimester and last trimester are the most sensitive.) 

More work is needed to research potential fetal damage based on embryo's age. More outreach work is needed on college campuses toward young women and men. Bars and clubs should have some responsibility to not sell liquor to pregnant women. Money is needed to spend on advertising in the community to women who are not in the college environment.


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## Saoirse (Apr 29, 2012)

The pregnancy angle is non existent. She said Hey, Im not preggers. and she should know, right?


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## FA Punk (Apr 30, 2012)

moore2me said:


> There was several discussions between Ms Jordan and the bouncer about whether or not she was pregnant. She said "no". He "yes". She said "it's just fat", and on and on . . . .Then several DIMMERS ask about how much she had been drinking, etc.
> 
> It is important to restate for all the people of reproductive age that women who think, suspect, or know they are pregnant should never drink alcoholic beverages. *Drinking by the mother will cross the placental barrier and can damage the unborn baby. It can damage the baby's brain, physical appearance, personality, and cause a deformity cause Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Most authorities on this subject say the mother should not even have one alcoholic drink while pregnant.*
> 
> ...



Ughmm..she said she wasn't pregnant. I think thats one of the reasons she was upset.


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## Surlysomething (Apr 30, 2012)

I still don't understand why some people need to take these threads to the extreme in their thinking.

People don't need to be schooled on every issue.


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## EMH1701 (Apr 30, 2012)

LeoGibson said:


> If it was me and I was insulted by something as such, I think I would just not return and I'd tell as many people as would listen how bad of a place it is. But since entry to the club and service inside the club was not barred, then I don't feel it was legal discrimination.



It may not be legal discrimination, but it's still pissy.

So women must be a size 6 to dance in public now? Seriously, this is the kind of thinking that keeps many fat women at home and not going out and living their lives.


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## moore2me (Apr 30, 2012)

Instead of size 6 ladies show up for this rumble, why not bring out the real dangerous bitches - the size 32 and up women? Plus, many of us have brothers, sisters, husbands & boyfriends who are just as awesome as we are. I even have a bouncer as a cousin and several kin who are currently serving time in state pens (and it wasn't for stealing cookies from girl scouts).

Or another solution would be to come to Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, or Mississippi and use the dancefloors there. You will not be turned down for being a BBW. You will most likely be welcomed and find yourself the bell of the ball. I used to go to dance halls at the places and was never turned off the floor. It just is never done. Now, if a knife fight breaks out, you are required to leave the dance floor and take it to the parking lot. Some of the "pressure cooker clubs" actively solicit women alone (without regard to their looks). These women are the bread and butter of these clubs organization.


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## FA Punk (Apr 30, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> I still don't understand why some people need to take these threads to the extreme in their thinking.
> 
> People don't need to be schooled on every issue.



Agreed, some people just need to let things go.




EMH1701 said:


> It may not be legal discrimination, but it's still pissy.
> 
> *So women must be a size 6 to dance in public now? * Seriously, this is the kind of thinking that keeps many fat women at home and not going out and living their lives.



No, she was allowed to dance on the dance floor but she wasn't allowed to dance on the bar. I think what keeps more people away from the night club scene is the super long lines and the overly loud music.


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## Lizzie (Apr 30, 2012)

moore2me said:


> Or another solution would be to come to Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, or Mississippi and use the dancefloors there. You will not be turned down for being a BBW. You will most likely be welcomed and find yourself the bell of the ball.



Arkansas is sounding really good right now.


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## moore2me (Apr 30, 2012)

Lizzie said:


> Arkansas is sounding really good right now.



Lizzie, You not only would be on the dancefloor, but better bring a stick to beat the boys off with. (Or, you could use bodyguards.)


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## Yakatori (Apr 30, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> "_I still don't understand why…*People don't need to be schooled on every issue.*_"


I think there are at least a few things in here that we all can be constructively engaged with. So, I will give it a shot.



Surlysomething said:


> "_They might also not be the sturdiest of stands to dance on and they don't want anyone to get here if it gives way._"


A platform should be built as strong as need be to accommodate as many people as can fit on it at single time, whether it's 10 100 lbs girls or one that weighs 1000 lbs. Otherwise, it's just too much of a liability. 



CastingPearls said:


> "_The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results._"


Perhaps, but simply because something fails on the first attempt does not preclude future-success. I can agree that her actions betray a certain sense of entitlement. But, so what? That doesn't make what the bouncer did right....



LeoGibson said:


> "_it is more indicative of the way our society has gotten over the last 20 or so years of the *everyone gets a trophy mentality.*_"


Ah..I don't think so. I mean, I think I understand what it is you're pointing out. And I would agree that being raised around this type of notion has inoculated some of us with an un-due sense of entitlement. But, again, so-what? What does that really have to do with the bouncer's actions?



MrSensible said:


> "_...just how flawed our society is on the subject of aesthetics. "Beauty" is *a completely subjective term*, so to say that "she's not pretty enough" is only one opinion._"


Because a term is necessarily applied with some degree of subjectivity does not preclude that there can be a basic consensus of some sort that's, somehow, quantifiable…empirically-speaking. 



Jack Secret said:


> "_However, from my experience at nightclubs (depending on how exclusive it is) *only the hot ones get the nod to get in the place/dance on the platform*. She didn't strike me as all that attractive…The bouncer would turn her away… And turn me away as well. I am not one of the beautiful people either!_"


Yeah, I would totally agree with you if we were talking about the Limelight or Studio 54. Moreover, I think you’re getting closer to the truth of this by the use of the term “hot” as opposed to “pretty.” I mean, in those types of venues, the purpose of those platforms is to clearly showcase just how many of the very hottest girls are there and, well, just how hot they are on that particular night. However, recognize that, on a slower weeknight, there might not be quite as many of the very hottest. And so, you then have to start making decisions about which of the best looking guys or the best dancers-overall should be allowed onto the platforms. I mean, obviously, on the balance, you cannot have more guys than girls. And, past a certain point, you don’t really want the club to get too empty. And so, even at places like this, where the competition is fairly consistent; certain allowances or compromises need to be made in order to meet other competing demands.

Besides which, we’re not really talking about that type of club. Really, we’re talking about a college bar that primarily caters to the 18-22 crowd, in a relatively small city (read: very few guys with real $). And while I’m sure there’s no shortage of hot girls there; I mean, it’s like not it’s the type of place where the hot girls get eaten by even hotter ones. Where, every once in while, the collective heat seems to cause them to just spontaneously combust. I mean, yeah, there are certainly smokin’-hot girls there; but, maybe, they’re just, sort of….slumming… biding their time until they have enough money to move out west…or east, maybe.

Also, the bouncer, as far as we know, did not use the term “hot,” as in “You’re not hot enough.” Right? He used the term “pretty” and then said something about being pregnant. “Pregnant” is obviously the least subjective of these terms. (Either you are pregnant or you aren’t.) But, while both “pretty” & “hot,” are at least somewhat subjective, “pretty” is clearly the more mild descriptor between the two; and, therefore, “hot” is a much higher bar. And so, he’s made what amounts to a fatal error in world of bar-security: He’s betrayed uncertainty in his own judgment.

I mean, if he were truly confident in the validity of his own assessment, if he were willing to bet the farm on it, he might say something like “Uh, look, those girls up there are all, relatively-speaking, very hot. And there are more than enough basically-hot girls in line behind them. And, behind them, a steady stream of girls who are easily “very-pretty,” but maybe not putting forth quite the effort and overall level of commitment as the “hot” girls. And, whereas you are not even remotely-hot, not even as much as &#8216;pretty’ or &#8216;not-pretty-at-all;’ I can’t meaningfully prioritize your request before this club empties of virtually all of its attractive patrons. And, realistically, that will probably never happen.” Right? In that type of scenario the disparity would be so evident that both he and the establishment would need only to hold it up to the light of day. 

But no, he dicks around with: “You aren’t pretty enough,” a statement which is inherently more difficult, to even quantify, let-alone either verify or deny, especially so absent of any side by side comparison. What does it really even mean? How is it different from saying “Well, you’re almost pretty enough; if only you were just a little bit prettier, you just might scrape past this most minimum standard of pretty by the very skin of your teeth?” It certainly isn’t the type of explanation that merely invites immediate compliance. On the contrary, it seems best at just provoking further scrutiny. The girl is made to think: “Should I, maybe, go home and put-on some more make-up?” 

Fairly, I think this inevitably leads one to speculate that if they’d actually been there, watching this unfold, they’d likely be able to look toward the platform in question and see at least a few girls who’re only marginally pretty. And, perhaps, even one or two girls who’re roughly comparable with the complainant’s degree of general overall physical-attractiveness (or lack-there-of). I mean, wouldn’t that, sort of, best help to explain her audacity in approaching the platform more than once?



FA Punk said:


> "_to know how much she had to drink before she tried to climb on the bar for a second time, mybe she wasn't too drunk but mybe she got mouthy with the bouncer and thats the real reason he wouldn't let her up there._"


Consider the problem if you had to refuse someone service due to their apparent state of intoxication: Would you just flat-out tell someone “Hey man, you’re drunk…Okay? You’re just too drunk….I can’t serve you because of how drunk you are right now”! No, of course not; that would be very stupid and irresponsible to actually say that even if it was, basically, truthful. Because, in doing-so, you are just needlessly personalizing what’s, basically, a business decision. Moreover, you are also trading one risk or liability for another. No, in that case, you exercise a little bit of diplomacy. You let the other person have your way. So that they continue to feel welcome, personally, in as much as you intend for them to feel that way. 

As such, the result that really matters is how a person is (reasonably) made to feel; and, by extension, both the real reason and the explanation can come into play. The real reason in as much as, even if left unstated or otherwise contradicted, it can be inferred from the context of multiple instances (e.g. if a golf club has refused admission/membership to every single otherwise mostly-qualified non-white applicant, it can weigh more heavily than any of a number of explanations to the contrary.) Likewise, the explanation, in as much as what it forces a person to deal with most immediately, carries a certain weight as well, true or untrue or anywhere in between. (e.g. If a person is refused service on the basis of how they’re dressed, only to be offered the explanation of “Well, it’s because you’re a…[racial epithet]” ) 

Taking that into account, there’s really no getting around the very simple fact that this guy intended to offend this girl, okay? Liability aside, that’s totally counter-intuitive to any normal kind of service paradigm. And so, this was no simple oversight or mistake, but an intentional, willfull effort to make someone feel unwelcome. On what basis? On the basis of actual pregnancy?! Very unlikely. On the basis of some vague, luke-warm descriptor of “pretty?” Again, very unlikely. According to the information available, the only apparent difference between this girl and her cohorts (all of whom were admitted to the platform) was her size. So….yeah.


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## moore2me (Apr 30, 2012)

Yakatori said:


> (snipped)
> 
> I mean, if he were truly confident in the validity of his own assessment, if he were willing to bet the farm on it, he might say something like Uh, look, those girls up there are all, relatively-speaking, very hot. And there are more than enough basically-hot girls in line behind them. And, behind them, a steady stream of girls who are easily very-pretty, but maybe not putting forth quite the effort and overall level of commitment as the hot girls. And, whereas you are not even remotely-hot, not even as much as pretty or not-pretty-at-all; I cant meaningfully prioritize your request before this club empties of virtually all of its attractive patrons. And, realistically, that will probably never happen. Right? In that type of scenario the disparity would be so evident that both he and the establishment would need only to hold it up to the light of day.
> 
> But no, he dicks around with: You arent pretty enough, a statement which is inherently more difficult, to even quantify, let-alone either verify or deny, especially so absent of any side by side comparison. What does it really even mean? How is it different from saying Well, youre almost pretty enough; if only you were just a little bit prettier, you just might scrape past this most minimum standard of pretty by the very skin of your teeth? It certainly isnt the type of explanation that merely invites immediate compliance. On the contrary, it seems best at just provoking further scrutiny. The girl is made to think: Should I, maybe, go home and put-on some more make-up?



*You could try a more realistic approach. Pull some cash out of your wallet and start tipping the guy. Say "Stop me when I get pretty enough." Give him a $5*
Then another $5
Then another $5
Then another $5
Then another $5
If he hasn't caved in yet, start smiling and vamping him and saying things like "take it easy on this old girl, me and the kids have to eat the next week" or "we need money to get to my court date on Tuesday", etc. (Sometimes you get more flies with honey and money than you can other ways.):wubu:


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## bigmac (Apr 30, 2012)

Surlysomething said:


> I still don't understand why some people need to take these threads to the extreme in their thinking.
> 
> People don't need to be schooled on every issue.



Yes!!! This girl should save her money to spend somewhere she's welcome.

There are lots of places fat chicks can go were they will not be harassed. When I was in college I worked as a bouncer at a biker bar that had really good blues bands most nights. Our clientele included university students, old regulars, lots of construction workers, and of course bikers. Judging from this girls photo I'm betting she'd gets lots of play at this sort of place.

http://www.bluesonwhyte.ca/PlayingattheClub.aspx


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## MrSensible (Apr 30, 2012)

Yakatori said:


> Because a term is necessarily applied with some degree of subjectivity does not preclude that there can be a basic consensus of some sort that's, somehow, quantifiable…empirically-speaking.



Oh, I'm well aware of that, hence why I said, "since the majority of people seem to share this (imo) warped, strictly exclusive image of beauty". Regardless, that doesn't make the issue any less based on subjectivity. Just because the majority of people follow along with this "thin is in" standard of beauty, doesn't mean their tastes are any more substantiated than the minority who prefer the opposite. It also doesn't justify discriminating against someone simply because they don't fit in the mold of what that majority deems "acceptable". It still happens of course, but that doesn't make it right.

Anyway, I'm really not here to argue or debate. I only posted on this topic to give my views on the matter. I know it seems like a petty issue not even worth discussing to some, and maybe as far as this particular situation goes, it is, but inequality in general doesn't sit right with me, regardless of the context. It's disappointing to see how different (often in a negative sense) life can be for someone who is considered a physical deviant in a society of so-called "beautiful people". If nothing else, I'd say it's a pretty good indicator of just how powerful (and in my opinion, destructive) pop culture conditioning can be in shaping how so many people view the world.


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## bigmac (May 1, 2012)

MrSensible said:


> ...
> 
> I know it seems like a petty issue not even worth discussing to some, and maybe as far as this particular situation goes, it is, but inequality in general doesn't sit right with me, regardless of the context. It's disappointing to see how different (often in a negative sense) life can be for someone who is considered a physical deviant in a society of so-called "beautiful people". If nothing else, I'd say it's a pretty good indicator of just how powerful (and in my opinion, destructive) pop culture conditioning can be in shaping how so many people view the world.



A young girl being made to feel like shit is not a petty issue. Also, I agree with you that "beautiful people" focused society makes life hell for as you say physical deviants.

IMHO the best reaction is to tell the "beautiful people" focused society to fuck off. If you're not welcome at their clubs, stores, spas, restaurants .... don't patronize these places and don't feel bad about it. The world is full of places, events, and businesses that don't give a shit about traditional beauty -- spend your time and money at these and let the beautiful people live their sad plastic lives without you -- their loss.


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## Lizzie (May 1, 2012)

bigmac said:


> A young girl being made to feel like shit is not a petty issue. Also, I agree with you that "beautiful people" focused society makes life hell for as you say physical deviants.
> 
> IMHO the best reaction is to tell the "beautiful people" focused society to fuck off. If you're not welcome at their clubs, stores, spas, restaurants .... don't patronize these places and don't feel bad about it. The world is full of places, events, and businesses that don't give a shit about traditional beauty -- spend your time and money at these and let the beautiful people live their sad plastic lives without you -- their loss.



I agree. Yes, the club owners can dictate who is able to dance where and for what reasons. However it is her money. She can determine what businesses receive it. For that matter, she can also speak positively or negatively about the experience she has in a business and influence where others spend their money.

I was disturbed by the attitude of the bouncer more than anything. He was perfectly okay with telling her she was unattractive, but seemed to have trouble saying that it was due to her size. He would have been protected legally had he chosen to do so. Why was he unable to say it?


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## Yakatori (May 1, 2012)

bigmac said:


> "_...the best reaction is...If you're not welcome at their clubs, stores, spas, restaurants .... don't patronize these places and don't feel bad about it. The world is full of places, events, and businesses that...spend your time and money at these..._"


I don't disagree with any of that, per se. But how is that mutually exclusive with working to generate awareness for others? I mean, what's wrong with letting other people know what type of place this is, so they don't have to go through this type of experience themselves, so they don't waste their money? Moreover, what's wrong with trying to reach out to the ownership? Or owners of other establishments?



Lizzie said:


> "_He would have been protected legally had he chosen to do so. Why was he unable to say it?_"


It's really the business- itself that has the most to lose. Like many employees, the bouncer might be the type that, really, can't care less. That said, even if the employee is protected legally, it's becoming more rare, these days, for most people to express their own bigotry as explicitly as this. Because there are what I would best describe as...social consequences...that can be as significant as an actual legal outcome.

Look, I understand why many of you feel like the young fat people out there are probably better served avoiding the traditionally thin-centric venues of 3rd rate nightclubs and 1st rate college dives & such. (Heck, if were doling out advice to college kids toady, I would tell them to focus %100 on their studies and avoid drinking and going-out altogether. You can have much more fun when you actually have a good job & money coming-in.) But, you know, the kids just aren't hearing that... They're ambitious; and, in some ways, more resilient, if not just thicker-skinned. They don't want to be prematurely resigned to hanging with the "mature" crowd. Besides which, there's plenty of time for that in old-age.

This girl is, what, like 21 or 22....if that. I mean, what would you all say if the girls on the platform were under 21? And here she is, of legal age, and still denied? It's arbitrary & capricious, and it should be challenged. And not just for fats' sake.


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## MissAshley (May 8, 2012)

At first I thought this would be considered discrimination, but discrimination is being denied a basic human right, which I don't think has been done here. The bouncer was rude, but many college age bouncers are all over the world. There plenty of people who are treated rudely by club staff because they are ugly, or aren't dressed in an acceptable way, or many other reasons. This is nothing new so I am not sure why this is even newsworthy. That said, I'm not saying I agree with how certain people are treated at bars. If it were me, I think everyone should be treated politely.


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## CastingPearls (May 8, 2012)

It doesn't have to deny a civil right to qualify. It IS discrimination, but this kind of discrimination may be legal, since there are no specific laws protecting fat people from being excluded in a privately owned club, plus she'd have to prove her charge. 

From Wiki: Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups


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## MissAshley (May 9, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> It doesn't have to deny a civil right to qualify. It IS discrimination, but this kind of discrimination may be legal, since there are no specific laws protecting fat people from being excluded in a privately owned club, plus she'd have to prove her charge.
> 
> From Wiki: Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups



I see. Thank you for clarifying that.


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## gangstadawg (May 9, 2012)

moore2me said:


> *You could try a more realistic approach. Pull some cash out of your wallet and start tipping the guy. Say "Stop me when I get pretty enough." Give him a $5*
> Then another $5
> Then another $5
> Then another $5
> ...



nearly everybody has a price.


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## Fatdoug373 (May 13, 2012)

she looks pretty good to me, but I'm 48 and 300 lbs, so I'd certainly take her for a spin !


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## bigmac (May 13, 2012)

CastingPearls said:


> It doesn't have to deny a civil right to qualify. It IS discrimination, but this kind of discrimination may be legal, since there are no specific laws protecting fat people from being excluded in a privately owned club, plus she'd have to prove her charge.
> ...



Yes, this is a good example of how not every problem has a legal solution. IMHO the best non-legal solution is for this young lady and all her friends to take their money elsewhere.


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## moonvine (May 14, 2012)

moore2me said:


> Lizzie, You not only would be on the dancefloor, but better bring a stick to beat the boys off with. (Or, you could use bodyguards.)



I lived in TX for the past 10+ years and lived in the South almost all my life. This has NOT been my experience.


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## Russell Williams (May 15, 2012)

I was once talking with a single woman who was tall and thin. She told me that once people found out about her work many became less interested in her. She said that once, on the dance floor, a man asked her what kind of work she did. She told him what she did and he immediately stopped dancing with her and walked away.

What was this job that many men were turned off by.

She was an ordained minister in a mainline church.


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## moore2me (May 15, 2012)

moonvine said:


> I lived in TX for the past 10+ years and lived in the South almost all my life. This has NOT been my experience.



Moonvine, I suspect that if you are disappointed in past experiences in Texas bars, that you are patronizing waaaayy too classy joints. Here's the difference - a classy joint has a bouncer that screens chicks, serves fancy mixed drinks, has a happy hour with hors d'oeuvres and men wear suits. Before you go inside, notice the parking lot. A classy joint has a paved parking lot with lighting, and one last tell - the lot has nice, expensive cars in it. Note: I spent very little time in this kind of joints.

My kind of bars had a dirt or gravel parking lot, most of the vehicles were trucks, many with wire hangers for antennas. It was hard to tell what color the vehicles were because the lights outside did not work or were never there. If the weather was nice, the doors might be open or even the walls would be folded back. The floor inside might be dirt and peanut hulls. No mixed drinks are served, just beer, wine coolers, cokes and setups (for the brown baggers). On the bar (where no one dances) there is a big jar of pickled pigs feet, a jar of pickled eggs and bowls of peanuts. But the guys here are priceless and the salt of the earth. Sure there might be a few alpha wolves, but you can weed them out (if you want to).





Russell Williams said:


> I was once talking with a single woman who was tall and thin. She told me that once people found out about her work many became less interested in her. She said that once, on the dance floor, a man asked her what kind of work she did. She told him what she did and he immediately stopped dancing with her and walked away.
> 
> What was this job that many men were turned off by.
> 
> She was an ordained minister in a mainline church.



Russell, I am SURE you were cruising for chicks, talking and dancing with single women when you were between wives. Right? Of course right.


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## moonvine (May 16, 2012)

moore2me said:


> Moonvine, I suspect that if you are disappointed in past experiences in Texas bars, that you are patronizing waaaayy too classy joints. Here's the difference - a classy joint has a bouncer that screens chicks, serves fancy mixed drinks, has a happy hour with hors d'oeuvres and men wear suits. Before you go inside, notice the parking lot. A classy joint has a paved parking lot with lighting, and one last tell - the lot has nice, expensive cars in it. Note: I spent very little time in this kind of joints.
> 
> My kind of bars had a dirt or gravel parking lot, most of the vehicles were trucks, many with wire hangers for antennas. It was hard to tell what color the vehicles were because the lights outside did not work or were never there. If the weather was nice, the doors might be open or even the walls would be folded back. The floor inside might be dirt and peanut hulls. No mixed drinks are served, just beer, wine coolers, cokes and setups (for the brown baggers). On the bar (where no one dances) there is a big jar of pickled pigs feet, a jar of pickled eggs and bowls of peanuts. But the guys here are priceless and the salt of the earth. Sure there might be a few alpha wolves, but you can weed them out (if you want to).



Well, I am well acquainted with rednecks. I live with one of the biggest ones on the face of the earth. But we met when we were in college and I was much smaller. I do like mixed drinks, though. Not too much on bars where you have to bring your own liquor, though I have been in one or two. 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, because I don't know you at all and I don't mean to offend. It seems as though what you are saying is that men of a lower socioeconomic status are more likely to like fat women. This may very well be true, but I'm just wondering if that is what you are saying?


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## thatgirl08 (May 16, 2012)

Clubs and bars are a meat market. If you don't want to be hit on, flirted with, grinded on and generally judged for what you look like, go elsewhere. I have a bunch of different places I go around here.. a little Irish bar for getting just a drink or two with my coworkers, an artsy half coffee shop half bar I'd we wanna just drink and hang out, Applebees if I'm meeting my mom for a cocktail, a swanky club on the East side if I'm looking for a little male attention and, my favorite, a gay club downtown that let's anyone in wearing pretty much anything gay or not. It's just a matter of knowing your environment .. I wouldn't go to Applebees and climb on the bar nor would I go to the swanky east side club and get pissed if a guy was trying to hit on one of my friends. Yeah it fucking sucks not being considered attractive by society and maybe its not fair but few things in life are. Those types of bars are a meat market .. you're going to be judged and unfortunately fat people are not going to make the cut. This isn't discrimination. I believe in fighting for equality regardless of size for things that matter .. health care, hiring practices, parental rights, etc. Those goals are attainable. Perception of beauty is not an attainable goal. You can't lobby for people to start thinking fat people are attractive .. they either do or they don't. The club/bar scene has revolved around flirting, sex, meeting people, etc since the dawn of time. If she doesn't like the meat market atmosphere, which I don't blame her, she should go elsewhere for her entertainment.


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## moore2me (May 17, 2012)

(M2M's comments in blue.)



moonvine said:


> Well, I am well acquainted with rednecks. I live with one of the biggest ones on the face of the earth. *You are indeed a lucky duck to have such a man.* But we met when we were in college and I was much smaller. I do like mixed drinks, though. (*Me too, my fav is Old Charter and coke.) *
> Not too much on bars where you have to bring your own liquor, though I have been in one or two. *(Too small a sample size for a true understanding.)*
> 
> Forgive me if I'm wrong, because I don't know you at all and I don't mean to offend.  *(I am pleased to meet you and for reference, I am incredibly hard to offend - just don't say bad things about my dog.)*
> It seems as though what you are saying is that men of a lower socioeconomic status are more likely to like fat women. This may very well be true, but I'm just wondering if that is what you are saying? *No, I wasn't alluding to shopping for men in a herring barrell. What I was saying (not very well) was that I am a redneck myself. I love CW music, CW dancing, line dancing, and playing pool. I do everything you have heard that rednecks do & have fun. Now that I am old and gimped up, I cannot drink anymore - too much medication. But, I would like to make something crystal clear to the young ladies of this forum - you don't have to wait for someone to ask you to dance. Ask them. Sure, you'll get turned down sometimes, but not everytime. If it is necessary I can do a chamelion and make folks think I am from a higher social group, but I always revert back to my basic lifeform - Hillbilly redneck *




*I did not worry about men in the bars. They should be worried about me.*


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