# "fat & sloppy"



## MissToodles (Apr 14, 2006)

I posted this question to another group I belong to but cannot find the original message.

As fat people, we are constantly critiqued-from what we place in our mouths, to what we wear. But why do we (in the collective sense) must challenge stereotypes especially regarding how we dress. Is it okay to go out in our sweats or without makeup or in raggedy clothing. We can go without makeup, not wear heels. Since many feel the "personal is the political", do we need to be stand up citzens, dress to the nines and combat stereotypes of the fat slob. 

I hate that I feel I need to work extra hard because of my size. Sometimes I enjoy going to the supermarket in my old jeans and beat-up, oversized t-shirt. The very fact that I'm doing what people tell me I shouldn't is freeing. But I am only one person and do not represent all of the fat people in the world.

I cannot be a walking billboard for size acceptance 24 hours a day. That's like asking a person of color to constantly explain racism & predjuice.


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## FitChick (Apr 14, 2006)

I understand how you feel, but when I was fat I DID "dress to the nines" all the time, because I wanted to make the point that fat does not have to mean unattractive or sloppy. I wore makeup, heels, dresses all the time and got flirted a lot with too.

My mother is dumbfounded and frustrated by the fact that after I lost weight, I started dressing in jeans, teeshirts, sneakers. I stopped to think about it...at first I thought it was because I returned to a very active lifestyle (exercise, cycling, etc) and so it was easier to just always dress casually all the time (I use my bikes for transportation and its easier to ride in casual clothing.)

But when I thought about it some more, I realized I no longer felt an incentive to dress up, because I'd proven my point. Besides, if a thinner woman dresses up, its no big deal. If a 300 lbs woman does, it gets noticed! Do you know that when I show ppl pics of me at 300 lb and dressed up/makeup, etc they all comment (even the fatphobes!) that I looked better THEN? (and I agree with them) So, my point was made!

I generally don't do things unless I have a stereotype I'm trying to break. I'm a tomboy and rebel at heart and always have been, so being "frilly and feminine" is not NORMALLY my bag.


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## Falling Boy (Apr 14, 2006)

There is a double standard. A skinny person can "run up to the store" or whatever and just thrown on some sweats and a t-shirt and its okay. But a larger person does it and they're "fat and sloppy". 

Its all a bunch of **** if you ask me.


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## FitChick (Apr 14, 2006)

Falling Boy said:


> There is a double standard. A skinny person can "run up to the store" or whatever and just thrown on some sweats and a t-shirt and its okay. But a larger person does it and they're "fat and sloppy".
> 
> Its all a bunch of **** if you ask me.



I know, and its unfair, but its a reality we have to cope with.


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## Jane (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't wear makeup. I have a skin condition that reacts badly to makeup, but I've never worn it much anyway. I just don't like the feel of it on my face.

I have had many men (especially those who REALLY like me) compliment me on the fact that I don't wear makeup.

Don't know what that says about me or them, but it makes me happy.


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## sunandshadow (Apr 14, 2006)

Why try either to super dress up or to be defiant by not dressing up? Just wear what pleases you and tell everyone else to go to hell since their opinions don't matter.


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## bigcutiekaroline (Apr 14, 2006)

So this is my take on this....
I love to look good.....It makes me feel good! I walk taller, smile more, and usually have a better day. But to me looking good isn't about being dressed to the nines all the time. I still go to the store in track pants and a t shirt.......but they are coordinated...I will throw my hair up in a quick and easy style ...but it is in a style that flatters my face.....I wear runners but they are clean. I think that we can wear comfy clothes and be like the rest of the world and not come across as a sloppy fat person. I also don't think that this is just a fat person issue...I have seen quite a few "thin" people look like hell in their comfy clothes too.....
Just be you .... you know what looks good on you and what doesn't ....git rid of the stuff that doesn't and it will go a long way towards deflating the sloppy fat girl image alot of the world seems to have.


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## bigsexy920 (Apr 14, 2006)

I have to say I do like to look my best, BUT that dosen't always happen. I do like to wear things that look nice on me. I do tend to stear away from sweats and things of that nature but moslty becuase I don't love how look for feel in them. As for makeup and hair I dont always do it. I do when Im going out but at work I only do it sometimes. Heels Ilike but they are getting harder to wear. 

I like to look nice for both reason, I want to break the stero type and I personally like to look my best.


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## Sandie S-R (Apr 14, 2006)

Miss T...

You really are dead on. There are days when I just don't feel like getting all dolled up, and I don't. But for me...it is not about dressing to the nines. I don't do that any more...or very rarely. Guy and I just don't go out to fancy stuff as much (although he still owns a tux, and I still have half a dozen evening gowns.  )

For me, it is more about feeling good, and liking what I am wearing. I always shower, wash my hair and do something pretty with it (as most of you know, I have a thing about my hair). If I am home for the day it might just be a pretty T and leggins...but I always do my hair, put on some perfume, earrings, and at the least, moisturizer and lip gloss. I figure, if I need to go out, I can go out that way and look nice. And, that way when Guy comes home at the end of the day - I look fairly tolerable. 

I remember feeling pretty funky after my knee injury last summer. It was difficult to bathe and wash my hair - and I didn't do much beyond that for about 4 months. And after a point, I finally stopped apologizing for it. Guy was totally understanding, and there really were more important things than putting on makeup and jewelry at that point. But you are so right - it seems that we don't allow ourselves the luxury of just being a slob for the day - if we choose. And we should have the right to do so.


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## lipmixgirl (Apr 14, 2006)

this is a very interesting question... i have done some investigation into the whole definition of "sloppy" from a grassroots perspective... 

my lab of choice is craigslist... and i am not saying that that is the best forum either... as in the land of cl, a "small bbw" ranges from size 10-16, "bbw" ranges from 18-24ish... and a ssbbw is for the most part considered from sizes 24-30... so, i guess in the land of craigs, "ultrasized" is size 30+... 

ridiculous, right?!?! 

anywho, i have asked many many many cl women what "sloppy" means... and it does not mean to them no makeup and sweats... sloppy means "not wearing weight well" or in other words not proportional from the average perspective... hanging bellies, etc... 

so, it don't matter if you are dressed to the nines, the definition of sloppy according to the nyc metro area means a whole lot of non-proportional extra body...

your thoughts???


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## BBW Betty (Apr 14, 2006)

However you want to dress, you need to be comfortable. I myself have a lot of mildy "nice" clothes that I wear almost everywhere--the ratty or worn out stuff is for yard work, etc. And I have very little that's really dressy; that gets too expensive. I've never liked wearing make-up much either, but I don't usually get comments on it one way or the other.

It sucks that some people will look down on us for dressing casually. It just happens. I think what we can do as a group is keep our heads high and not have to apologize for our size. I know it's easier said than done, but I'm finding it gets easier with practice.


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## Chimpi (Apr 14, 2006)

I have a little bit to say on this matter. 



lipmixgirl said:


> anywho, i have asked many many many cl women what "sloppy" means... and it does not mean to them no makeup and sweats... sloppy means "not wearing weight well" or in other words not proportional from the average perspective... hanging bellies, etc...



So by that standard, you can't choose being sloppy, you just ARE sloppy depending on if your belly hangs? So anyone who happens to be 400 pounds, and their belly hangs (which I'm sure is 100%), they're sloppy? That just doesn't seem logical... just downright *illogical*, completely. I've always understood "sloppy" to mean 'not giving a hoot' or 'not giving a damn' about how you look. Your hair isn't done, you may or may not have taken a shower, your pants, if any at all, are uneven and disgusting, and such like that.

Sloppy, at Dictionary.com is:

Marked by a lack of neatness or order; untidy: a sloppy room. 
Marked by a lack of care or precision; slipshod: sloppy use of language. 
Informal. Oversentimental; gushy. 
Of, resembling, or covered with slop; muddy or slushy: sloppy ground. 
Watery and unappetizing: a sloppy stew. 
Spotted or splashed with liquid.
I would like to think that the Dictionary is not biased and does not prefer a specific weight. 



FitChick said:


> I understand how you feel, but when I was fat I DID "dress to the nines" all the time, because I wanted to make the point that fat does not have to mean unattractive or sloppy. I wore makeup, heels, dresses all the time and got flirted a lot with too.



Personally, I have yet to see no makeup, no heels, and no dresses unnattractive. Personally, I prefer a woman who does not wear heels. In fact, whomever I marry, my only request is that she not wear heels and preferably no makeup (and if at all, very little). Natural beauty, to me, is the best beauty you can find. What's the point of getting to know the professional person when you don't know the REAL person; The person behind the makeup, out of the heels, and out of the dress (not naked, just not in a dress ). Actually, I find heels _un_attractive.
*shrugs*

I'm against the whole idea of thinking that you need to look good (E.G. wear makeup, do your hair, wear a dress, wear heels, shave your legs, etc...) in order to "fit in". Sure, it's a "requirement" in the business world, but if someone is too shallow to see the professionalism, and not the real person, then it doesn't matter. That's what I think anyway.

I do not view a woman who is wearing a raggy T-shirt and a pair of sweatpants unattractive. Not at all. You'll never see me go to work with shiny shoes, ironed shirts, and perfectly shaped pants. It'll never happen. 
But, I do understand that people feel the opposite. That people feel better when they "dress for success." *shrugs*


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## moonvine (Apr 14, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I know, and its unfair, but its a reality we have to cope with.




Um, but that is what the whole fat acceptance movement is to me in a nutshell. Changing reality so we *don't* have to cope with crap like that.

It is kind of like saying well, we just have to cope with job or housing or any other kind of discrimination because it is reality. Imagine if African American people had said oh, well, we will just cope with seperate drinking fountains because it is reality. They said no, and so, in my opinion, should we.


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## AnnMarie (Apr 14, 2006)

I think, as Karoline touched on, there is a difference between sloppy and cute casual. 

I wear jeans pretty much every single day of my life, I have about 10 pairs. I have lots of cute tshirts, dressier shirts for work, etc. There is nothing sloppy about how I dress when I go out - ever. 

I don't wear make up most days, it's just not my thing. I will wear some when I go to events and stuff, but that's a nightlife thing - different approach for me, and it's all very neutral/pretty - not heavy and garish. 

What I DO consider sloppy or unacceptable is wearing anything that is ripped, dirty, stained in any way, or even remotely smelly. No way, no how. If you see a stain in me, it happened the day you're seeing it - or mention it to me and you'll never see that shirt again if I can't get it out. 

I do think we're held to a higher standard, no question. But I personally don't feel it extends to someone expecting me to be "dolled" up - just clean, cute, presentable, and confident in my own clothes and stride-which I always am.


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## Blackjack_Jeeves (Apr 14, 2006)

This doesn't really apply to me, as I am not a BBW.... nor female... but for me, how I dress is a choice I make to express myself. Usually, I dress fairly conservative, with the jeans and boots combo, and a nice shirt. I have MANY shirts that are more than just some t-shirt. I only wear t-shirts really when I'm lounging at home. Occasionally, I'll pull out the khaki's and just say "Hey, today's a NICE day." No occasion whatsoever. To me, dressing decent is simply for the purpose of FEELING clean, feeling accomplished and competent.

I had a whole 'nother paragraph ready to go concerning my Humanities teacher's opinion of "filthy homeless people" but I think that's kind of losing focus. I agree that sloppiness is more about how you dress (make-up and accessories included) and your overall cleanliness, and should have nothing to do with who you physically ARE. People who claim sloppy people are those who "let it all hang out" are fairly shallow in their views of others.


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## StoneFemme (Apr 15, 2006)

For me it is about feeling comfortable in my own skin. I dress in a way that A) makes me feel good about myself B) matches my internal gendered feelings to my outside presentation and C) is my perception of "appropriate" for a given setting. 


I'm Queer, so I don't have the problem of trying to attract the male gaze. While it is nice to be appreaciated, I'm ambivalent about men being attracted to me. I worry about looking good to myself, and to a much much lesser degree, to my butch. 

With that said? I happen to find it disgusting when ANYONE fat or thin goes out unbathed or in dirty, smelly clothes or clothes that are stained or have holes etc. That is just a matter of self-respect IMO.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Apr 15, 2006)

I couldn't care less. I went to the super market in my slippers tonite. lol


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## Donna (Apr 15, 2006)

I wear lite makeup, perfume, jewelry and do my hair everyday throughout the week by my choice and I have myself manicured/pedicured and waxed on a regular schedule. Usually I skip the makeup on weekends and go for a lite moisturizer and lip gloss unless it's a special event. I won't leave the house unless I have showered. I don't do it for others. I enjoy putting on makeup and I am compulsive about smelling nice. I keep my hair short, though, so it is easily maintained and looks good without a lot of fuss. Again, I don't do these things for anyone else other than myself.

Like Ann Marie, you will never see me wearing something that is stained or wrinkled or ripped. If I acquire a stain or rip and can't change immediately, it drives me insane until I can. My mother was like this, and I learned this behavior from her. Is it vain? Perhaps. My ex husband thought it was vanity and often times criticized me for it. Chuck takes pride in the fact that I like to look good (secretly I am sure he thinks I do it for him and I am willing to let him believe that.)

My views are changing the older I get, though. I'm no longer working in the corporate world, so I am finding myself far more comfy and confident in jersey knit and keds than in freshly pressed linen and leather flats (no heels, back won't take them.) Heck, just this past week I threw a couple sleeveless blouses into the mix and got even more casual with my look. Living in Florida, casual dress is almost expected everyplace but a board room. Down here, a sundress and leather sandals is considered 'dressed to the nines'.


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## JMNYC (Apr 15, 2006)

People will think what they are going to think.

Sometimes when I am onstage with my wife and she is singing I will look out into the audience to see how she's going over. The differences are always pretty remarkable. She dresses to the absolute nines. There are some who admire her singing and stage moves---and she's got a LOT of stage moves, tight dresses and wiggling---some who smile as if to say "You go, girl!", and there are the inevitable men in their late teens or early 20s who snicker and elbow each other, and you know what they're thinking.

Can't control it, might as well forget about it.

That said, I also pretty much never go about in public in sweats, unless I'm running or biking. I take care with what I present to the public, even in my neighborhood, even if it's just to get the mail. How's that for vanity...? 

Hell, you got the body you got, you might as well dress it up a bit whatever it looks like.


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## Stormy (Apr 15, 2006)

sunandshadow said:


> Why try either to super dress up or to be defiant by not dressing up? Just wear what pleases you and tell everyone else to go to hell since their opinions don't matter.





Chimpi said:


> I'm against the whole idea of thinking that you need to look good (E.G. wear makeup, do your hair, wear a dress, wear heels, shave your legs, etc...) in order to "fit in".





Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I couldn't care less. I went to the super market in my slippers tonite. lol


I agree with these comments, and take pride in not caring much what people think about how I look or live. Regardless of my weight, I dress for comfort and practicality. My wardrobe consists of T-shirts (I must have over 100 of them, in a variety of solid colors and with cool art), shorts, jeans and stretch pants, with a couple of dresses for the rare wedding or funeral. Never high heels, and shoes at all only when needed for protection or warmth. I like to be clean and shower at least once a day, and my hair is long but I never do anything with it besides wash, condition and detangle.

There are different types of going out though. If its a social or business occasion, I wear makeup, nicer jeans/shorts/stretch pants and T-shirt with no holes or stains, and maybe earrings. But I work from home and am not very social so those events are infrequent, and if Im just running errands I make no effort to change my appearance, so that usually means no makeup or jewelry, clothes usually in good shape but I tend to get dirty and tear them up, like to get the most out of things and wont throw them away because of a little stain or tear, or avoid wearing them to Wal-Mart or whatever, and see no reason to get cleaned up first if I happen to be dirty at the time I want to go. Im more likely to wait until I get home, so Ill be nice and clean for myself.

When Ive been in relationships Ive worn makeup more often, though still not every day, and would again if my partner preferred it, but wouldnt change much else about my appearance.

Speaking of wardrobe options, I never wear panties, havent since I was a child. I find them totally unnecessary, serving only to be uncomfortable and leave ugly lines.


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## Littleghost (Apr 15, 2006)

Heck, I'm willing to bet I'm sloppier than the vast majority of the BBWs here, as well as the other FAs. Psychology is weird; I'm also willing to bet the stereotype stems from ideas like the pig; fat and sloppy. You'd think people were better than that, but sometimes they're not and sometimes it's unconscious. Hopefully you haven't heard the racist remark of comparing a dark-skinned person to a 'dumb ape'. I have. The sad reasoning skills of people also goes that _since they "don't care about their body's appearance (ie fat) then they couldn't care less about the rest of their physical appearance."_ And of course anyone who matches that biased idea reinforces it while they conveniently ignore any exceptions. I'm still waiting for people to realize that guys who aren't macho jocks aren't secretly gay. I'm not even effeminete (sp?) and I've gotten it more times than I care to count.

Exception to all the rules, good and bad,
--Littleghost


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## Littleghost (Apr 15, 2006)

Yeah, I don't know what it is (maybe I only pay attention to BBWs  ) but I've seen lots of BBWs who put on way too much makeup. Frankly, I agree. I'll take a natural gal a million times over instead of too much makeup. No contest! And yes, sometimes makeup is good, but it's definitely a time when more isn't better.

Never played with mommy's makeup 'cause it was far too difficult,
--Littleghost


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## obelisk666 (Apr 15, 2006)

I think people should dress how they want to dress. In my opinion, how a person dresses says something about who THEY are, not WHAT they are. Yes society deems it necessary to say that if a skinny person dresses shabbily then they are going casual, whereas if a larger person does it they are slobs.

Like what was said before, it's a double standard that is only given any credence when people decide to listen to it. I say dress however you want to dress and to hell with what society says. You want to go out in jeans and a shirt, then go.

It's YOU, plain and simple. Does not matter the size.


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## Littleghost (Apr 15, 2006)

Er... maybe that came off a bit harsh. Just remember the boys don't like it globbed on.


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## StoneFemme (Apr 15, 2006)

Littleghost said:


> Er... maybe that came off a bit harsh. Just remember the boys don't like it globbed on.




Good thing I wear makeup for myself, and not to please anyone else.


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## ripley (Apr 15, 2006)

Littleghost said:


> Er... maybe that came off a bit harsh. Just remember the boys don't like it globbed on.


 

I've heard that a lot, Littleghost. I think it's a popular opinion among a lot of men. That said, do you know how much time it takes to get that "natural" look? 

Wants to play dress-up with Littleghost, 
ripley


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## Littleghost (Apr 15, 2006)

And you are indeed pleasing.

Definitely needs a shave,
--Littleghost


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## Littleghost (Apr 15, 2006)

ripley said:


> Wants to play dress-up with Littleghost,
> ripley


No... please don't. I have repressed memories of playing dress-up once with neighborhood girls and they laughed at me when I put on said dress... but I thought I looked so purty.  Oh the scars... I have trouble looking at a skirt to this day...

Can apparently remember repressed stuff,
--Littleghost 

View attachment lilghost.jpg


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## seavixen (Apr 16, 2006)

I pretty much have to echo AnnMarie. I wear jeans almost exclusively, but I'm the sort of person who tends to look fairly dressed up regardless of what I wear. I used to wear long skirts almost exclusively and people always thought I was "dressed up" for something or another and made me feel a bit uncomfortable. I still wear long skirts on occasion... but generally jeans are my thing. I have many a tee, and like fun casual clothes, but wouldn't say that constitutes sloppy. Granted, I have a favourite sweatshirt that has some tiny cat-claw holes in it that I still love to wear, but otherwise I'm extremely picky about the state of my clothes. I rarely wear that out of the house anyway, unless I'm traveling.

To me, sloppy constitutes a total lack of regard for appearance and cleanliness. The first thing I tend to notice is hair. I myself have unruly hair (and like it that way) but greasy hair really grosses me out. Makeup? Some people definitely look better with it, others look fantastic without it. I vary how much I wear. I wouldn't say a lack of makeup is sloppy, but I was raised by a makeup-a-holic.

Heels? Eh... I have plenty of them, but few under 3 or 4 inches and I wear them very rarely - mainly because I'm a wimp, but also because I'm a klutz and don't want to kill myself or anybody else  Generally if I have any sort of heel on my shoes, I'm wearing boots. And I don't really need the extra butt boost of heels, lol.


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## moonvine (Apr 16, 2006)

ripley said:


> I've heard that a lot, Littleghost.




Know what I've heard a lot? That men (absent specific fetishes) do not notice 

1. makeup
2. hair
3. clothing (unless extremely revealing)
4. shoes
5. fingernails

I firmly believe that most of these things are things women do/wear for themselves or to impress other women.


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## Stormy (Apr 16, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Know what I've heard a lot? That men (absent specific fetishes) do not notice
> 
> 1. makeup
> 2. hair
> ...


If men are so visual, what the hell are they looking at? LOL

The men Ive dated have liked my hair, and told me that they really wanted me to keep it long.

Maybe its more that there are certain general styles they prefer, but they dont notice little changes within them as much as the women who are making the changes.


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## AnnMarie (Apr 16, 2006)

I hear this makeup thing over and over and over and over again with men. Most guys just don't dig it - they don't mind if you have on makeup, but as soon as it's obvious and bright and heavy, they just get turned off. 

I find it really interesting that so many women are so dependent on it, but so few men seem to really care about it. And although I think most women probably wear it because it makes them feel better, I'm sure there is still some perception in their minds that they are received better when they're wearing it then when they're not - and for so many men (especially FAs I've known/dated over the years) they're just not into it unless it's light/natural. 

Hmmm... very interesting.


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## StoneFemme (Apr 16, 2006)

Is wearing something because you like it the same as being dependent on it? Or is it just a matter of comfort and individual preference? 

It amazes me, as a person who has no erotic or romantic interest in males, how this obsession with "what men want" is being reinforced - particularly in a venue that rejects (in theory) the prevailing preference of most western males to have their mates look like emaciated 10 year olds with silicone breasts. 

I don't dress how I do or wear makeup or bathe or get facials and manicures because my s.o. likes it. I do it because it is what *I* want to do. I do it when I am in a relationship and I do it when I am not. 

Perhaps it would be more productive to reinforce the idea that people are entitled to dress and groom themselves as they see fit without throwing stereotypes and assumptions about their motives into it.


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## Phalloidium (Apr 17, 2006)

How much effort a person puts into their appearance says something about how much effort said person puts into life. It takes all of 20 seconds more to button up a nice shirt than throwing on a t-shirt.

I realise that not everyone has a fat bank account, but worn out clothing should be replaced. When you wear old clothes, you subconsciously tell people that you'll accept substandard stuff in your life. That lowers your status in just about everyone's mind.

The same thing has applied to food to a lesser extent for the past twenty years. One can choose to eat McDonalds or one can choose to eat something healthier, like a wrap. Are you the kind of person that demands quality food, or will you settle for what's handy? Again, what you eat says something about you to a lot of people.

Like FitChick said, presentation matters far more than size.

It's a shame there aren't more plus-size women that dress sharply. When I do see one, my eyes are fixated on her. She works with her body instead of trying to hide it like so many others.


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## Phalloidium (Apr 17, 2006)

AnnMarie said:


> I hear this makeup thing over and over and over and over again with men. Most guys just don't dig it - they don't mind if you have on makeup, but as soon as it's obvious and bright and heavy, they just get turned off.
> 
> I find it really interesting that so many women are so dependent on it, but so few men seem to really care about it. And although I think most women probably wear it because it makes them feel better, I'm sure there is still some perception in their minds that they are received better when they're wearing it then when they're not - and for so many men (especially FAs I've known/dated over the years) they're just not into it unless it's light/natural.
> 
> Hmmm... very interesting.



This is an interesting topic. You're right that most men tend not to notice. We like our women to look good, but we don't really care how she accomplishes it. If we did care, we'd be wearing as much makeup ourselves. I'll sometimes use a black pencil on my eyes when I go out clubbing, and even that's unusual for a man.

No, women wear makeup for each other. It's a status thing between them, to look prettier than each other. Men just don't care, unless the woman has done a shitty makeup job that lessens her beauty. Though we do notice red lipstick!

As a side note, my hairdresser has very beautiful light natural colouring. She almost looks like she's wearing makeup when she's wearing none at all. She's the only person I've met like that though.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Apr 17, 2006)

Phalloidium said:


> No, women wear makeup for each other. It's a status thing between them, to look prettier than each other. Men just don't care, unless the woman has done a shitty makeup job that lessens her beauty. Though we do notice red lipstick!



Um, no. Not all women wear make-up to be prettier than another woman. I'm not very competitive at all and most of my coworkers are men. And frankly, it's not very hard to be prettier than them.  I wear make-up for a handful of reasons:

1) I was raised to believe women should wear make-up. Natural habit for me.
2) I had parents who told me routinely I was ugly without make-up as a teen.
3) It's a way of distracting people from my personality and position in the world. I'm a pretty smart person, and a major nerd. If you haven't noticed, nerds are treated like crap. The fact I can look like a cute girl is useful to prevent experiencing horrible crap in life.
4) It makes me feel less vulnerable to have physical imperfections hidden.


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## Phalloidium (Apr 17, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> Um, no. Not all women wear make-up to be prettier than another woman. I'm not very competitive at all and most of my coworkers are men. And frankly, it's not very hard to be prettier than them.  I wear make-up for a handful of reasons:
> 
> 1) I was raised to believe women should wear make-up. Natural habit for me.
> 2) I had parents who told me routinely I was ugly without make-up as a teen.
> ...



There are exceptions to all generalisations (including this one itself). You get what I'm saying though: men usually don't care about makeup -- they'll pursue women with or without makeup -- it's the women that usually notice it more and gossip about it. You'll rarely ever hear a man talking about some chick's mascara running or something like that (and I'm not even sure what running mascara means, ya know?)


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## moonvine (Apr 17, 2006)

Stormy said:


> If men are so visual, what the hell are they looking at? LOL




Depending which pieces parts they like your chest, your legs, your butt or your belly. If non-FAs they are not even noticing us and looking past us to the thin woman over there.


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## Jay West Coast (Apr 17, 2006)

I have to echo a lot of opinions that were already mentioned on this topic. For the most part, I find a big woman dressed to the nines quite sexy. First of all, because I don't see it everyday (it seems for every "high-class" SSBBW, I see ten unkempt ones); but it also seethes confidence, professionalism and thereby indirectly intelligence. Whether you like BBW's or not, there is something hot about a woman who is top-notch and knows it. 
Plus, I know its not always easy for a SSBBW to dress up, and it warrants recognition when one pulls it off. 

But, at the same time, I LOVE seeing BBW's dressed casual. But, from simply a preferential standpoint, "cute" casual is good. As much as I'm an idealist and dreamer, I like the idea that I'm seeing a girl the way she "normally" is. Because there is something inherently cute, cuddly and sensual about fat, I think that the "cute casual" look can be very conducive to it.

So, in short, I love both. 


Jay West Coast


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## Stormy (Apr 17, 2006)

StoneFemme said:


> I don't dress how I do or wear makeup or bathe or get facials and manicures because my s.o. likes it. I do it because it is what *I* want to do. I do it when I am in a relationship and I do it when I am not.


I have that attitude for the most part, and want anyone Im with to like me the way I am and want to be, but dont mind changing little things according to their preferences, like wearing makeup a little more often. Theyll see my face more than I will. Ive told people Id prefer it if they didnt wear certain garments anymore (anything yellow, orange or pink  yuck!), especially when asked what I thought of them, and I would hope my partner would be willing to make little changes according to my preferences as well, as part of mutually working to make our lives together more enjoyable.



Phalloidium said:


> How much effort a person puts into their appearance says something about how much effort said person puts into life. It takes all of 20 seconds more to button up a nice shirt than throwing on a t-shirt.
> 
> I realise that not everyone has a fat bank account, but worn out clothing should be replaced. When you wear old clothes, you subconsciously tell people that you'll accept substandard stuff in your life. That lowers your status in just about everyone's mind.


Im not interested in getting involved with anyone who would think me of lower status, that I put less effort into life or accept substandard stuff because I prefer comfortable, functional, inexpensive clothing and when I realize I need something from the store, even while in the midst of cleaning the barn, dont take a shower and change into fancy new clothes before going to get it, so its nice to make an unfavorable impression with them right away and avoid further contact. 



Phalloidium said:


> We like our women to look good, but we don't really care how she accomplishes it.





Phalloidium said:


> men usually don't care about makeup -- they'll pursue women with or without makeup


I think I look fine without makeup, but better with some (never wear a lot), and have known women who look much better with it, and can understand why they would not want to go without it. Other people might not notice the makeup specifically, but might not find us as attractive without it.



moonvine said:


> Stormy said:
> 
> 
> > If men are so visual, what the hell are they looking at? LOL
> ...


Heh, I thought about adding "besides fat" to my sentence.


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## ripley (Apr 17, 2006)

Stormy said:


> Im not interested in getting involved with anyone who would think me of lower status, that I put less effort into life or accept substandard stuff because I prefer comfortable, functional, inexpensive clothing and when I realize I need something from the store, even while in the midst of cleaning the barn, dont take a shower and change into fancy new clothes before going to get it, so its nice to make an unfavorable impression with them right away and avoid further contact.




*rep*  minimum extender


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## AnnMarie (Apr 17, 2006)

StoneFemme said:


> Is wearing something because you like it the same as being dependent on it?



No, it's not, that was my point. I know tons of women who wear makeup every single day because they like it, it makes them feel pretty and/or done up and polished, and that's great. More power to them. 

There are other women who will NOT leave the house without makeup. They refuse to be seen without it because they feel they will be judged or that they're not acceptable as they are. I know a woman who won't let her man (I say man because he is a man, and she's in a relationship with him) see her without makeup at all. It's the last thing she takes off at night, lights out, first thing that goes on in the morning. 

To me, behavior like that is not about "liking" it, it's about being reliant on it. If you read that differently, that's fine too. 

My point was that there are many, many women who do it because they believe they have to do it to be better received by the day to day world, and for those who are heterosexual, that would include their interactions with men and how they may be perceived by them. And the flip side of those with that particular reasoning, the reason for my post, was that it's interesting that so many men (and probably women as well, for those who date women) prefer a more natural/non-made up look. 

So, the end result of the thought is, exactly as you said, people should wear and do exactly what they like and not what they think they HAVE to do.


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## Michelle (Apr 17, 2006)

Stormy said:


> I have that attitude for the most part, and want anyone Im with to like me the way I am and want to be, but dont mind changing little things according to their preferences, like wearing makeup a little more often. Theyll see my face more than I will. Ive told people Id prefer it if they didnt wear certain garments anymore (anything yellow, orange or pink  yuck!), especially when asked what I thought of them, and I would hope my partner would be willing to make little changes according to my preferences as well, as part of mutually working to make our lives together more enjoyable.


 
Wise words, Stormy.


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## vlrga (Apr 17, 2006)

I've been wearing makeup since before I was a teenager. To me, it doesn't have much to do with being "dressy"/"sloppy" or "feminine"/"masculine" but more to do with decorating things. I got two cartons of eggs this Easter to dye/decorate, and I believe it comes from a similar drive. 

I do wear makeup everyday for two reasons:
1)I have a bad habit of biting my lips, and wearing lipstick stops that, and 
2)People get used to seeing you with it on, so if you go a little crazier than usual, it's not as big a difference as if you rarely put it on. An example: My high school colors were purple and white, and to color one lip purple and the other white on the days of the football games was a common thing. However, if someone that was considered "tomboyish" did that, the snobs who love to point things out would certainly bring it up, but that didn't really happen to me. Why is makeup and painting yourself necessarily considered feminine is the first place? Both men and women paint themselves the team colors at lots of sports games.

I realize people have preferences, but I'd put a guy that criticizing a girl wearing makeup in the same catagory as a guy criticizing a girl for being "too fat" or "too thin" for whatever his liking is.


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## Littleghost (Apr 17, 2006)

StoneFemme said:


> Is wearing something because you like it the same as being dependent on it? Or is it just a matter of comfort and individual preference?
> 
> It amazes me, as a person who has no erotic or romantic interest in males, how this obsession with "what men want" is being reinforced - particularly in a venue that rejects (in theory) the prevailing preference of most western males to have their mates look like emaciated 10 year olds with silicone breasts.
> 
> ...


Well, the only reason I brought it up is because I always thought that _women thought_ that they had to do it. And I certainly wouldn't want them to feel like that if they didn't have to. I just always assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that they viewed it like men view shaving; a hassle. But if they like to, then go ahead! No skin off my nose. My question is, are you sure you don't feel that way because she supports you in it? What if there were opinions to the contrary? It is definitely important to be yourself, but people also naturally want to please those close to them, and they make assumptions about what it is that people want. Many people find it incredibly hard to be individuals. I keep forgetting that, as it comes to me alot easier than most.

--Littleghost


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## FitChick (Apr 20, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Um, but that is what the whole fat acceptance movement is to me in a nutshell. Changing reality so we *don't* have to cope with crap like that.
> 
> It is kind of like saying well, we just have to cope with job or housing or any other kind of discrimination because it is reality. Imagine if African American people had said oh, well, we will just cope with seperate drinking fountains because it is reality. They said no, and so, in my opinion, should we.



I don't recall saying it is a reality we have to ACCEPT; I said it is a reality we have to COPE WITH. Work to CHANGE it, YES...but in the meantime, what else can you do but deal (cope) with it? We all deal/cope with it in our own ways. I did it by working to actively shatter the stereotype of fat=sloppy, even though yes, it meant extra "work" for me. I didn't do it because I felt obligated as a female, I generally only do things out of the ordinary for political purposes or to make a point/shatter a stereotype. But as for me *personally*, I usually don't feel a need to dress up unless I'm going out somewhere.


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## StoneFemme (Apr 20, 2006)

Littleghost said:


> My question is, are you sure you don't feel that way because she supports you in it? What if there were opinions to the contrary?
> --Littleghost



Femmes are constantly harassed and ostracized within the queer community for daring to want to look feminine ( after all, i'm aping heteronormativity dontcha know?). I refuse to date anyone who doesn't like my appearance how I like it. When I first came out, the community I lived in wanted me to throw away all my skirts and heels and cut my hair off. That was not gonna happen.


No, my choice of makeup and clothing is NOT influenced by my peers. If anything it is a direct contradiction to what they consider poliotically correct.


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## wtchmel (Apr 21, 2006)

I guess I just don't give a flying fuck what others think,becuase I wear what I want, regardless if it's ripped, stained(yet washed) or otherswise. i'm mostly in jeans or work clothes, and i'm to a point in my life where I just don't give a shit about what anyone thinks. I'm at the Fuck em' stage. And I say it to my family if they point out a stain or rip, I respond with, "screw em, they can kiss my big fat white ass!!" I went to many years in my life giving a shit about how others perceived me, at this point, stereotype away, i don't care.
(yet I do feel it sucks that it's out there, and when it comes to those that think that way, well, it makes me what to punish them)


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## wtchmel (Apr 21, 2006)

AnnMarie said:


> There are other women who will NOT leave the house without makeup. They refuse to be seen without it because they feel they will be judged or that they're not acceptable as they are. I know a woman who won't let her man (I say man because he is a man, and she's in a relationship with him) see her without makeup at all. It's the last thing she takes off at night, lights out, first thing that goes on in the morning.
> 
> To me, behavior like that is not about "liking" it, it's about being reliant on it. If you read that differently, that's fine too.
> 
> .



This reminds me of two people I know, one was a friend that would never let anyone see her without makeup, she would literally take off and put back on her makeup before bed, just in case there was a fire in the middle of the night!! She didn't want any of the firepeople to see her without it on!!!
the other one is my mom, she has never in her life since being a teen, gone with out make up, only at night to sleep. Never would she go outside without it. In fact she was reamed at a 'care unit' because of it, and they forced her to go without the make up while she was there, they said she was using it like a mask.


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## StoneFemme (Apr 21, 2006)

wtchmel said:


> I just don't give a shit about what anyone thinks. ...
> ...
> (yet I do feel it sucks that it's out there, and when it comes to those that think that way, well, it makes me what to punish them)



if you don't care what people think, why want to punish them?

Seems to me you care very much, and don't like that some people have a standard of grooming that you don't choose to adopt.


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## wtchmel (Apr 21, 2006)

ok, the punishment thing, does come from an enjoyment area   I should clarify, What I don't like, is judgement, and pretentiousness, so if that makes me someone who cares, thats fine. It's a double edged sword for me, I could give a shit, but then again, maybe I do, because people who judge a book by it's cover, piss me off. I live by a double standard, and thats just the way it is. Whats good for me is good for me, even if I feel it's not for you, it's still fine for me. Case in point, slow drivers, that is something that chaps my hide, but! if I was the slow driver and someone was on my ass, i'd slow down even further, and feel they could friggen go around! Doesn't make me a nice, person, but there ya go.


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## StoneFemme (Apr 21, 2006)

wtchmel said:


> I live by a double standard, and thats just the way it is. Whats good for me is good for me, even if I feel it's not for you, it's still fine for me. Case in point, slow drivers, that is something that chaps my hide, but! if I was the slow driver and someone was on my ass, i'd slow down even further, and feel they could friggen go around!




How sad for you to have all that anger built up inside to take out on random strangers.


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## Littleghost (Apr 21, 2006)

Okey-dokey


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Know what I've heard a lot? That men (absent specific fetishes) do not notice
> 
> 1. makeup
> 2. hair
> ...



I think that men do notice those things. We just dont really hear about them until the man is comfortable enough sharing that he noticed... 

I have to admit tho that when I see a woman that I find attractive I notice all of those things.


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## fatgirlflyin (Apr 22, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Depending which pieces parts they like your chest, your legs, your butt or your belly. If non-FAs they are not even noticing us and looking past us to the thin woman over there.



I think men and women, FA's or not will notice a beautiful woman no matter what size her body is. I've recieved compliments from men that I know aren't FA's about how I look.


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## wtchmel (Apr 22, 2006)

StoneFemme said:


> How sad for you to have all that anger built up inside to take out on random strangers.



I wouldnt say that I have anger built up, i just enjoy really antagonizing people


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## StoneFemme (Apr 22, 2006)

wtchmel said:


> I wouldnt say that I have anger built up, i just enjoy really antagonizing people




how very mature


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## Littleghost (Apr 22, 2006)

Phalloidium said:


> How much effort a person puts into their appearance says something about how much effort said person puts into life. It takes all of 20 seconds more to button up a nice shirt than throwing on a t-shirt.
> 
> I realise that not everyone has a fat bank account, but worn out clothing should be replaced. When you wear old clothes, you subconsciously tell people that you'll accept substandard stuff in your life. That lowers your status in just about everyone's mind.


Well, like StoneFemme said, some people dress for their own pleasure and not others. They don't care as much about what other people think and can't be judged by such assumptions. Isn't what that what this thread is all about? I'm not nearly as confident as a car salesman (or whatever a good example is) but clothing actually improves my confidence and I DON'T feel comfortable in a three-piece suit. I know a very driven girl that likes to dress up very oddly and takes pride in it. But her grandfather is a bit of an old-fashioned snob and puts her down for it. Yet he's a lazy *censored*. Worrying about status in life is a worthless prospect like 'popularity'.

Only likes 1 of the 2 ties I own,
--Littleghost


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## Ladyrose1952 (Apr 23, 2006)

I brush my hair, put on clean clothes that are comfortable and go to wherever it is that I need to go too.

I don't think that you have to wear fancy clothes or make-up to prove that you are not nasty, smelly, greasy and fat. I don't have to prove myself to the general public but I know that I am always well accepted wherever I go whether it is a store or at work.


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