# All of Me airs Monday night



## superodalisque (Mar 24, 2014)

this documentary is airing on independent lens Monday 3/24. 11PM eastern time. check your PBS station for times in your area or if your PBS station is not showing it you can see it streaming on pbs.org 24 hours later. 

*For Those Hoping to Lose, a Hard Look in the Mirror
All of Me,* an Obesity Documentary on PBS
By MIKE HALEMARCH 23, 2014


Fat people arent very visible on American television, and when they appear, it tends to be in one of a few approved roles: comic props in blue-collar reality series, cautionary figures in exploitative medical shows, huffing and puffing contestants in weight-loss competitions.

Alexandra Lescazes documentary All of Me: A Story of Love, Loss, and Last Resorts, showing in PBSs Independent Lens series on Monday night, is a welcome exception. Its examination of obesity is serious, intimate and not at all sensationalistic, despite some graphic images of weight-loss surgery and its consequences.

And Ms. Lescazes film confounds expectations in other, more significant ways. All of Me follows several women in Austin, Tex., who are or have been part of a group of big beautiful women, with social lives and in some cases livelihoods tied to their size and the attraction it holds for some men. Now they are having (or saving up for) weight-loss operations, and while they are eager to lose weight, their feelings about it are anything but straightforward.

Friendships and relationships shift and strain as a womans size and possibly her outlook on life change. Husbands feel threatened by a wifes new look, or insecure about their own girth. Conversely, women who were hired as fetish models or courted online and at gatherings of the like-bodied worry that they will lose their desirability along with their pounds.

One of them is asked: You were a spectacular fat woman. Are you afraid youll be less spectacular as a normal woman?

Then there are the physical effects of surgery, brought home vividly in a scene of a woman trying to eat a burrito after her gastric band has been tightened. What used to make me happy were things I cant eat now, she says.

Ms. Lescaze crams an awful lot of psychology, medicine, cultural history and complex emotion into an hourlong TV documentary, but her biggest challenge is finding a tone that works, one thats neither too cautionary nor too celebratory and accepting. She settles on a slightly generic note of sober uplift, though theres no hiding the crushing sadness implicit in at least some of the stories. One 470-pound woman whose insurance wont pay for weight-loss surgery  and who ekes out her income by posting photos of herself on fat forums  says, If thats what guys are going to pay to see, then its time to go to the circus.

*Independent Lens

All of Me: A Story of Love, Loss, and Last Resorts

On PBS stations on Monday night (check local listings).

Directed by Alexandra Lescaze; director of photography, Deborah Eve Lewis; co-produced by Ms. Lescaze and Ms. Lewis; edited by Sarah Devorkin.* 

View attachment allofme-superJumbo.jpg


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## wrestlingguy (Mar 28, 2014)

For those of you who are interested, PBS has posted the documentary on their website.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365190806/


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## Ned Sonntag (Mar 30, 2014)

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/all-of-me/ Here we see Zsalynn and the gang a few months before her "My 600Lb Life" narrative begins.:blush: It filled in a few blanks for me ...as to what happened with some Texas friends after DIMz became less central:bow: to the social network... back when we were all more 'in each other's pockets' a decade ago: before Facebook:huh: began to mainstream the subculture... in any case once again we see the gang go to extraordinary lengths NOT to mention DIMENSIONS. As I said a few months ago, discuss amongst yourselves, but do try to be kind to each other as you do...


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## superodalisque (Mar 30, 2014)

Ned Sonntag said:


> http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/all-of-me/ Here we see Zsalynn and the gang a few months before her "My 600Lb Life" narrative begins.:blush: It filled in a few blanks for me ...as to what happened with some Texas friends after DIMz became less central:bow: to the social network... back when we were all more 'in each other's pockets' a decade ago: before Facebook:huh: began to mainstream the subculture... in any case once again we see the gang go to extraordinary lengths NOT to mention DIMENSIONS. As I said a few months ago, discuss amongst yourselves, but do try to be kind to each other as you do...



thank goodness people no longer see themselves as a subculture ith no alternatives as they once did 30 yrs ago. 

i think they were being polite by not mentioning dimensions. all that would come is negative media attention and another week long shut down with additional members scattering to the hinterlands and hardly ever returning.


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## mp7251 (Mar 31, 2014)

I watched this and understood the women had WLS due to age and health reasons but felt there was an underlying reason for some of them. Some were just plain disgusted with their bodies. I'm a ssbbw fa and am solely physically attracted to that body frame. Just as someone who is physically attracted to a thin person and loses physical interest when there partner gains a singificant amount of fat, my physical attraction would diminish with pounds lost. That is not to say my love for the person would decrease as there is much more to a relationship than physical contact. I understood the husband's regret to the weight loss and the wife's need to lose. However, I would equate a woman that knows her mate is an fa and enters the relationship unhappy with her body needs to be upfront about the prospect that she might want to reduce later, with a gay person who hides their preference from their straight mate for 20 years and then comes out of the closet after using up the best part of their adult life. I don't know if a truly happy (image wise) ssbbw exists, but if you're not be honest before commiting.


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## Yakatori (Mar 31, 2014)

People shouldn't enter into any kind of relationship or agreement until they know everything first. So, then, that way, everything will pretty-much just stay exactly as it is, indefinitely. Because, generally, that way, life will just go on without so many surprises or unexpected outcomes. It will be easier. Safer.

**snore**..._hZZZzzzzzzhZZzzzz_......*hc-uhp*...

Until, something truly unexpected comes along....


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## Tracyarts (Mar 31, 2014)

" I don't know if a truly happy (image wise) ssbbw exists, but if you're not be honest before commiting. "

Sometimes the situation changes. And acknowledging/adapting to those changes is NOT an act of dishonesty. Here's the deal with "happy fatty bait and switch" coming directly from a person who has lived in a supersized body and whose opinion on how happy I was with my body changed over time. 

Loving your fat body (and your body being fat) is difficult in any situation, because of all the messages that come from every single direction, every single day, telling you that you are wrong and that you need to change. Just waking up and deciding to accept yourself as you are on a daily basis is an act of defiance that flies in the face against nearly everything and everybody around you. 

While difficult, this is doable. Especially when you have both individuals in your life, and a community of like-minded people who you can turn to for support. But even the most self-accepting and self-loving supersized person has things happen which makes them question themselves and how they feel about their bodies. Occasionally, things that happen in our day to day lives break through the wall of self-acceptance we have put up around ourselves to keep society's opinion about us at bay. 

Most of the time we can get up, brush ourselves off, and let it go. 

But my experience has been that the "wall" of self-acceptance is only as strong as I am. When I was younger, healthier, and able to do pretty much anything I wanted to, the wall was high and the wall was strong. Anybody who questioned my choice to accept myself as I was, got ignored and dismissed. Because there was no reason for me not to accept myself as I was. Life was easy, life was good, and whatever limitations I had due to my size were few and minimal. I was always able to find a go-around and live life on my terms. I was THE happy self-loving SSBBW. 

Until I wasn't anymore.

How and why did that change? 

It changed because my weight became a barrier to my being able to live my life on my terms. As long as I was a functional fatty, I was a happy fatty. But the minute that my weight started to negatively impact my life and keep me from doing things that brought me joy and fulfillment, my love affair with fatness and my fat body came to a screeching halt. I put down the pom poms and stopped with the "rah rah fat is flabulous" schtick. 

Chronic pain, failing health, loss of mobility and independence, social isolation, loss of income, all contributed to tearing down my "wall". How could I continue to love being fat, when my fatness had me stuck at home, bored and lonely, broke, in chronic physical pain, with a bagful of prescription medications to take and only the internet to fill most of my days. When I was able to go out, there were so many limitations due to my size and physical condition that it was often not worth it.

I never lived to be fat. Fat was never more important than all of the other things that I am. Maybe that itself makes me a substandard fatty. Because I can't live for the fat? But it is what it is and I am who I am. 

So, I had to make a big choice. My weight was preventing me from having a life which made me feel happy and fulfilled. Did I change my definition of what a happy and fulfilling life was in order for it to conform to my body's limitations? Or did I change my body and reclaim my life as I wanted to live it? 

What is the good fatty choice? Some would say to maintain the level of fatness and change my expectations and needs. And said that they did. Supporters and admirers both made their opinions known. I was called a fat traitor, accused of being self-loathing, told I was a sellout to the diet culture, and told that I must have never really loved myself if I even entertained the notion of losing as much as a single pound. Improvement of health and mobility was not seen as an acceptable justification. If I chose to lose weight, I was a fraud. Because fatlove is (supposedly) forever. 

I chose to lose weight, not get thin, but work towards a point where I could live life on my own terms without having my fat so sharply define what I could and couldn't do any longer.

Did I pull a bait and switch?

Or did I simply acknowledge and adapt to the changes that fat brought about?

Was I dishonest about how I felt about my body, because I had no idea of knowing up front what it would feel like when my body started to cause me pain and limit my life potential? 

All I can say, is that I am thankful that my husband's love, attraction, and commitment to me NEVER hinged on my carrying a specific amount of fatty tissue on my body. I did not have to choose between my fat and my marriage. When living got painful and I had to lose weight or give up and just die, HE was the one who helped me shop for and cook healthier food. HE was the one who at first pushed me in a wheelchair into the wellness center and to the pool where I could exercise. HE never tried to emotionally blackmail me into maintaining the weight. HE never acted like a spoiled brat who was losing his favorite toy as the pounds went away. Instead, he was happy that my health was improving and that meant that we would get to have more time together. He was happy that my mobility and overall energy level was improving and we could get out and experience life together more often. He was happy that we were becoming more of an equal partnership again, and me not being so heavily dependent on him.

What I had to do was hard enough. I don't know if I could have done it had I not had the complete support and encouragement of my partner. I don't know whether I would have had the strength to walk away and do it alone, or whether I would have stayed at my peak weight to appease him. How could I have laid down every night next to somebody who felt that my wanting to have a better life meant that I had been dishonest to him in some way? 

If somebody wants to feel as if I have been dishonest because my feelings about my fat body changed when the impact that the fat had on my body changed, then that's their right. But... 

Shit happens, things change.

Adapting to change is not dishonesty. 

Tracy


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## cinnamitch (Mar 31, 2014)

I agree with everything you wrote here.





Tracyarts said:


> " I don't know if a truly happy (image wise) ssbbw exists, but if you're not be honest before commiting. "
> 
> Sometimes the situation changes. And acknowledging/adapting to those changes is NOT an act of dishonesty. Here's the deal with "happy fatty bait and switch" coming directly from a person who has lived in a supersized body and whose opinion on how happy I was with my body changed over time.
> 
> ...


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## mp7251 (Mar 31, 2014)

Tracyarts said:


> " I don't know if a truly happy (image wise) ssbbw exists, but if you're not be honest before commiting. "
> 
> Sometimes the situation changes. And acknowledging/adapting to those changes is NOT an act of dishonesty. Here's the deal with "happy fatty bait and switch" coming directly from a person who has lived in a supersized body and whose opinion on how happy I was with my body changed over time.
> 
> ...



I don't see anything in my post that disagrees with your post.


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## superodalisque (Mar 31, 2014)

Yakatori said:


> People shouldn't enter into any kind of relationship or agreement until they know everything first. So, then, that way, everything will pretty-much just stay exactly as it is, indefinitely. Because, generally, that way, life will just go on without so many surprises or unexpected outcomes. It will be easier. Safer.
> 
> **snore**..._hZZZzzzzzzhZZzzzz_......*hc-uhp*...
> 
> Until, something truly unexpected comes along....



exactly 

it is impossible because no one ever knows absolutely everything about everybody because often no one knows everything even about themselves. nothing about people relationships and the future is ever predictable or stable. anyone who actually deals with humans would know that and would not expect otherwise.

for women or men i would think the best thing to do is find a person who is into and understands unconditional love and not so invested and fixated on a body. then if you change they'll still love you and be attracted to you and nobody feels hurt or cheated. if a person doesn't or won't focus on broadening their experience of other people beyond their physicality they are ALWAYS going to end up disappointed and disappointing. that is the price they pay for being one dimensional. the rest of us have to move on when we feel the need and not get stuck in a limited little box with them.


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## bigmac (Mar 31, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> exactly
> 
> it is impossible because no one ever knows absolutely everything about everybody because often no one knows everything even about themselves. nothing about people relationships and the future is ever predictable or stable. anyone who actually deals with humans would know that and would not expect otherwise.
> 
> for women or men i would think the best thing to do is find a person who is into and *understands unconditional love *and not so invested and fixated on a body. then if you change they'll still love you and be attracted to you and nobody feels hurt or cheated. if a person doesn't or won't focus on broadening their experience of other people beyond their physicality they are ALWAYS going to end up disappointed and disappointing. that is the price they pay for being one dimensional. the rest of us have to move on when we feel the need and not get stuck in a limited little box with them.



If you're looking for unconditional love get a puppy. Human relationships are always conditional.


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## Yakatori (Mar 31, 2014)

But I agree with you on that particular point. Except, you have no real business getting married if you don't expect a certain amount of turbulence. And that's in addition to the inevitable wear & tear.

If you're the type of person who has to drive a new car, leasing is better...


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## Marlayna (Mar 31, 2014)

I watched "All of Me", and found it interesting. The part where Kathy, the lady with the cats, died and her friend found her like that, made me cry, but the rest of it was fine.
I wish I had a bunch of fat girl friends like they did. They looked like they had lots of fun together.


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## superodalisque (Apr 1, 2014)

bigmac said:


> If you're looking for unconditional love get a puppy. Human relationships are always conditional.



that may be the way you are oriented but thankfully i have seen different. and even when it is not necessarily wholly true it certainly is the goal for some people. but no matter how conditional things might be people with a high strand of conditionality toward things no one can fully control will have a problem because that is a vein of inflexibility that doesn't move well with change. and if people aren't anything else they certainly are change.


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## superodalisque (Apr 1, 2014)

Yakatori said:


> But I agree with you on that particular point. Except, you have no real business getting married if you don't expect a certain amount of turbulence. And that's in addition to the inevitable wear & tear.
> 
> If you're the type of person who has to drive a new car, leasing is better...



i agree with that. people who always want everything a certain way are better off single so that they can meander around to people who are at that place in life that they want. that is why i respect long termed singles or forever singles because they aren't trying to make other people be something they may not want to be. at least they are realistic knowing that they may want something but that it isn't always going to be possible. at least they never ask other people to stop growing or changing just to suit them. i wonder why people keep thinking something outside of them, like controlling how somebody else looks, is really going to somehow make them happy. it won't. that's childish.


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## superodalisque (Apr 1, 2014)

Marlayna said:


> I watched "All of Me", and found it interesting. The part where Kathy, the lady with the cats, died and her friend found her like that, made me cry, but the rest of it was fine.
> I wish I had a bunch of fat girl friends like they did. They looked like they had lots of fun together.



i cried too. it reminded me of Lucinda. she used to chat with us just about every night and post cute fluffy bunnies . she would gently look out for us newbies in chat. i know she saved me a lot of grief and taught me the importance of being VERY careful. she would go away periodically and come back. once, when she was away for a longer than usual we found out she had died even more alone than Kathy. it took a long time for her body even to be found. we all wished we had lived closer.


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## bigmac (Apr 1, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> that may be the way you are oriented but thankfully i have seen different. and even when it is not necessarily wholly true it certainly is the goal for some people. but no matter how conditional things might be people with a high strand of conditionality toward things no one can fully control will have a problem because that is a vein of inflexibility that doesn't move well with change. and if people aren't anything else they certainly are change.



If your significant other refuses to work, or picks up a drug habit, or does any number of other objectionable things I'm betting your unconditional love will get conditional pretty damn fast.


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## superodalisque (Apr 1, 2014)

bigmac said:


> If your significant other refuses to work, or picks up a drug habit, or does any number of other objectionable things I'm betting your unconditional love will get conditional pretty damn fast.



is their hair turning grey, them getting fatter, thinner, wrinkly or something else solely physical really THAT objectionable? sorry but it's not the same thing *at all*. those things won't destroy your life or theirs. putting strictly cosmetic things we were talking about on a level with survival is plain ridiculous which is exactly what that sort of conditionality does. it blows relatively small things up out of proportion with a crazy kind of irrationality. inflationists might find that a fun fantasy but it has nothing to do with being a real person.


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## bigmac (Apr 1, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> is their hair turning grey, them getting fatter, thinner, wrinkly or something else solely physical really THAT objectionable? sorry but it's not the same thing *at all*. those things won't destroy your life or theirs. putting strictly cosmetic things we were talking about on a level with survival is plain ridiculous which is exactly what that sort of conditionality does. it blows relatively small things up out of proportion with a crazy kind of irrationality. inflationists might find that a fun fantasy but it has nothing to do with being a real person.



You're working with a pretty narrow definition of unconditional. Perhaps you should choose a different word.


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## superodalisque (Apr 1, 2014)

bigmac said:


> You're working with a pretty narrow definition of unconditional. Perhaps you should choose a different word.



I would expect that in this context it would be pretty obvious


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## Yakatori (Apr 1, 2014)

When I hear that particular word, my first thought is of either a child or pet.

A child at least appears to love his or her own parent unconditionally. But that's not quite true: As a biological parent could seem more like a stranger depending on their presence or lack thereof in early childhood. Similarly, a pet generally seems to always love its master, & necessarily without any real awareness or appreciation of things like of good or evil, if even a malicious intent on either's part. But, there's a condition at work there as well, in shared history.

Likewise, they also say that parents love their children on first sight. But, I also have to think that type of bond probably strengthens over time, develops through different kinds of shared experiences. So, what most seems _unconditional_ about that is, that most basic condition having already been met, they both feel a certain kind responsibility toward each other. Regardless of what might come about.

So, if your dog bit someone, or if your kid did something wrong; it's not that your love for them prevents you from recognizing that as such (even if it might get in the way from time to time). It's more about how you would tend to internalize that in such a way that wouldn't allow for you to so readily just abandon them.

So, from my point of view, things start out real conditional...(for people and dogs & cat-alike); but, inevitably-it sometimes seems-to, will to progress to point from which there's not such easy turning back.


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## Saoirse (Apr 1, 2014)

I have an insane lady-rod for Stanley Tucci *swoooooon*:wubu::smitten:


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## CastingPearls (Apr 1, 2014)

Saoirse said:


> I have an insane lady-rod for Stanley Tucci *swoooooon*:wubu::smitten:


FINALLY something we can agree upon.


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## bigmac (Apr 1, 2014)

Tracyarts said:


> ...
> 
> But my experience has been that the "wall" of self-acceptance is only as strong as I am. When I was younger, healthier, and able to do pretty much anything I wanted to, the wall was high and the wall was strong. Anybody who questioned my choice to accept myself as I was, got ignored and dismissed. Because there was no reason for me not to accept myself as I was. Life was easy, life was good, and whatever limitations I had due to my size were few and minimal. I was always able to find a go-around and live life on my terms. *I was THE happy self-loving SSBBW.
> 
> ...



My wife and I have had similar experiences. My blood pressure and blood work were always fine until one day they weren't anymore. After a few months of denial I decided to do whatever it takes to get healthy again.

My wife's story is very similar to yours. She was not unhappy with her fat body until her weight started to negatively impact her life. I thought her 80 inch hips were very sexy -- but being able to walk comfortably is more important than a sexy backside. And in any event I'm not finding her new smaller body unattractive.

I don't feel the least bit short changed or think she pulled a bait and switch. Our life and relationship is different for sure. In many ways its better. For example; three years ago we went to the Oregon coast for a week -- walking on the sand was almost impossible for my wife then. This weekend she took our littlest daughter on an hour long walk along the local beach and through the tide pools while I tried to teach our five year old to body board.


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## Isa (Apr 1, 2014)

Wonderful post Tracy. Everyone has to learn what their breaking point is. All of this bait and switch bs is exactly that, bs. In the end, true love is more than size and weight, thankfully you have a partner who knows that. All women, fat or thin, should be so lucky. 

More power to you and continued good health! 




Tracyarts said:


> Shit happens, things change.
> 
> Adapting to change is not dishonesty.
> 
> Tracy


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## swordchick (Apr 3, 2014)

I always imagine Cinda watching over us now. I called her "Homeland Security" because she was very protective. We were supposed to meet her at the Vegas Bash. Then she was gone. I'll never forget her. I'll always love her!



superodalisque said:


> i cried too. it reminded me of Lucinda. she used to chat with us just about every night and post cute fluffy bunnies . she would gently look out for us newbies in chat. i know she saved me a lot of grief and taught me the importance of being VERY careful. she would go away periodically and come back. once, when she was away for a longer than usual we found out she had died even more alone than Kathy. it took a long time for her body even to be found. we all wished we had lived closer.


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## swordchick (Apr 3, 2014)

Thank you, Tracyarts, for your truthful post.


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## superodalisque (Apr 3, 2014)

i think Tracy's post was awesome too--as always. most people probably want someone who really loves and cares about them and not someone looking for just a sex worker at home. sometimes some of the wishes people have reminds me of the folks who always going on and on about wanting people to cook and clean. a lot of women no longer want to be glorified maids cooks or fat Jenna Jamesons. they want to be themselves and not an appliance, sexual or otherwise.


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## moore2me (Apr 4, 2014)

I read everyone's posts and have a few comments to add. (Most were picked up during my 34+ years of my second marriage and my 63 years of being a fat girl.)

- Life will give you good and bad times. Most of us have the free will to change* SOME *of the bad to good (but not all). "I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul."

Some of the fat population (me especially) have been trying to lose weight most of our lives. Most of the pressure to do this has been from my mom, grandmother, girlfriends, doctors, teachers, employers, magazines. TV, complete strangers, and hundreds of others I have brushed elbows with. 

None of my diets worked except to enrich the pockets of the people hawking the diet pills, formulas, snacks, surgeries, etc, And now that I have gotten older and wiser I am hesistant to give more of my hard earned money to these schemes. But this is a personal decision between you and your health needs - I do not judge you - your path is different from mine.

As far as having a companion in life - you may find someone that you can live with. I'll be honest - most men need initial housebreaking and constant refresher training. They also need daily positive reinforcement and you will have to give the lion's share of sacrifice/work/pandering/petting/and making him happy for your relationship to work. I'll give you an example that happened to me tonight - we came home after being gone for 4 hours.

M2M - Honey, if you want a sammich for lunch, I used the last of the fresh bread. You need to get a loaf out of the big freezer.
Mr M2M - Okay. (And then brings in frozen bread.)
M2M - If you want. I can toast that bread for you in the oven, it will only take a few minutes.
Mr. M2M - I think I'll just have some Cheetos.


So we are sitting in our chairs watching TV and all of a sudden Mr M2M jumps up and runs in the kitchen. Then he starts cussing, I hear frantic oven door slamming, more cussing, and he starts turning on vent hoods and ceiling fans. 

Mr M2M -I turned the oven on "BROIL" and "HIGH". I didn't know you had left some toast in there from this morning. (He had incinerated the poor toast to the point it was threatening to burn the kitchen down.) The kitchen smelled like an old BBQ pit for hours after the incident,. I like to save old toast and use it as croutons Now, here comes the part where I have to make him feel okay . . . .

M2M - I am sorry I left that toast in the oven - I should not have done that. You didn't burn yourself - did you?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And last, if you fear dying alone, it doesn't have to be that way. Get a medic alert bracelet. Have a service call and check on you daily. Make friends with neighbors. Have a pre-arranged signal (proch light on) (drapes open) after 6 PM - someone needs to call and check on you.


As far as being lonely in our old age - we have to get away from the computer for just a little while. Meet some real people. Take special care to be kind and gentle to children and older people. Be kind to animals. Do your best to be outgoing - a little bit at a time. 

I hope some of this helped.


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## bigmac (Apr 4, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> i think Tracy's post was awesome too--as always. most people probably want someone who really loves and cares about them and not someone looking for just a *sex worker at home*. sometimes some of the wishes people have reminds me of the folks who always going on and on about wanting people to cook and clean. a lot of women no longer want to be glorified maids cooks or *fat Jenna Jamesons*. they want to be themselves and not an appliance, sexual or otherwise.



Sex is an integral part of marriage. The way I look at it is that if you _buy the cow_ there should be a steady supply of dairy products.


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## swordchick (Apr 4, 2014)

To the men who say that, why buy an entire pig just to get a little sausage?


bigmac said:


> Sex is an integral part of marriage. The way I look at it is that if you _buy the cow_ there should be a steady supply of dairy products.


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## superodalisque (Apr 4, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Sex is an integral part of marriage. The way I look at it is that if you _buy the cow_ there should be a steady supply of dairy products.



absolutely feudal. sex as an obligatory duty? who knew? no wonder some married people have such awful sex or stop having it at all. this position would suck ALL of the fun out of it. heaven help anyone who has sex with a spouse because they actually WANT to. i think this is exactly why a lot of people feel marriage sucks and have opted out. marriage shouldn't enslave anybody. what happens in a marriage should be mutually agreeable and voluntary acts based on love and care.


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## bigmac (Apr 4, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> absolutely feudal. sex as an obligatory duty? who knew? *no wonder some married people have such awful sex or stop having it at all.* this position would suck ALL of the fun out of it. heaven help anyone who has sex with a spouse because they actually WANT to. i think this is exactly why a lot of people feel marriage sucks and have opted out. marriage shouldn't enslave anybody. what happens in a marriage should be mutually agreeable and voluntary acts based on love and care.



Never said a duty. However, if there's no sex its not much of a marriage. I for one wouldn't stay in a sexless marriage for more than a week -- luckily its not a problem.


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## superodalisque (Apr 4, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Never said a duty. However, if there's no sex its not much of a marriage. I for one wouldn't stay in a sexless marriage for more than a week -- luckily its not a problem.



it is a duty, if you're talking about buying a cow. a spouse isn't a purchase for household use. a spouse is still a person with an independent will and their own desires wants and wishes. marriage is not license to make people do things against their will.

no one was talking about a sexless marriage except perhaps for people who fetishize a certain kind of body to an extent that their whole sexual ability is dependent on fat deposits. that's their problem. no one owes it to anyone to be fat forever if they change their mind.

unfortunately a lot of the husbands in the documentary come off as passive aggressive tantrum throwing toddlers if they don't have things their own way. any marriage could fail for any reason if a person brings that entitled attitude into it. definitely flaunting what a woman is not is very childish and irresponsible. i don't think any of them are oblivious to the pressure they are exerting, they just don't care to examine it honestly. and that pressure is definitely not supportive of their spouse.


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## bigmac (Apr 4, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> it is a duty, if you're talking about buying a cow. a spouse isn't a purchase for household use. a spouse is still a person with an independent will and their own desires wants and wishes. marriage is not license to make people do things against their will.
> 
> ...



Why do you always assume guys are trying to get women to do things against their will? Marriage is a contract with a sexual element. If one party decides they no longer want to be sexually intimate with the other party then as far as I'm concerned the marriage is over.


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## bigmac (Apr 4, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> *absolutely feudal. *sex as an obligatory duty? who knew? no wonder some married people have such awful sex or stop having it at all. ...




Just finished work and heading home for the weekend. I'm going to try an experiment. When I walk in I'm going to say: _"Wife I'm home -- prepare to submit."_

I'll let you know how it works out.


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## Blackjack (Apr 4, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Sex is an integral part of marriage. The way I look at it is that if you _buy the cow_ there should be a steady supply of dairy products.



Please go and fall into a bonfire.


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## Marlayna (Apr 4, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Just finished work and heading home for the weekend. I'm going to try an experiment. When I walk in I'm going to say: _"Wife I'm home -- prepare to submit."_
> 
> I'll let you know how it works out.


You know you're too pooped to pop after a long day at work.


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## superodalisque (Apr 5, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Why do you always assume guys are trying to get women to do things against their will? Marriage is a contract with a sexual element. If one party decides they no longer want to be sexually intimate with the other party then as far as I'm concerned the marriage is over.



i wasn't addressing all guys. you were the one talking about buying cows and getting your expected milk. i was only addressing that YOU said. marriage is what you make it. evidently you have made it a duty and legal burden in your mind. that is all on you.

sex is a wonderful part of marriage but you can have sex while single. there are other reasons people get married. there were a lot of people who aren't and never were physically capable of ever having sex but they are married and even legally so. they blow your sex argument out of the water. grandpa and grandma should also get dumped because he can't have sex anymore? lol


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## bigmac (Apr 5, 2014)

Marlayna said:


> You know you're too pooped to pop after a long day at work.



Long day at work and a four hour drive over a mountain range -- but after being away from home for four days I'm ready for some action no matter how late it is when I get home. 

Of course I have to deal with the kids first -- they always wait up for me -- its kind of sweet.


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## Dromond (Apr 7, 2014)

Blackjack said:


> Please go and fall into a bonfire.



The motion is seconded.


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## Saoirse (Apr 7, 2014)

I personally will not settle for a man who isnt giving me the hot beef injection as frequently as I want. I would make this known to him of course, so he knows what I expect. I would hope that he feels comfortable enough with me that he can let me know his expectations as well. For some people, sex is a very integral part of a marriage. For others, not so much.


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## superodalisque (Apr 7, 2014)

not having "expectations" doesn't mean you won't have sex. it only means the other person won't have to feel obligated. a lot of people's desire goes away if they are made to feel pressured.


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## Donna (Apr 7, 2014)

The whole notion of making sex an obligation just seems counterintuitive to me. I have found *for me*, a healthy relationship = an active and thriving sex life. No pressure. No obligation. No "wifely duty." It just comes from being in a healthy relationship with someone you care about deeply. The closeness and trust of being involved in a loving relationship just seemingly goes in the sexual direction. 

Anything else, in my opinion, is just overthinking.


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