# A Sad Situation



## bigmac (Jul 2, 2013)

On the way home from work today I stopped for groceries at the local supermarket. As I walked by the handicapped parking I noticed a family loading up their GMC van. The family consisted of mom, dad, and two young adult daughters. Mom and dad looked to be about 50 and were both a little chubby. The daughters were both extremely fat (easily fat enough to warrant the handicapped placard). The smaller of the two was at least 450 pounds, the larger about 600 pounds. They were obviously suffering in the 100 plus degree heat. The smaller sister had to help push the larger into the van. The larger sister then helped pull her smaller sister in.

It occurred to me that these two young ladies were totally dependent upon their not so young parents. Once their parents can no longer provide care and transportation these women are going to be in a very difficult situation. I know that this is a size positive site but I'm not seeing anything positive about the situation these young women are in.


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## The Orange Mage (Jul 3, 2013)

Well, let's pick a subforum at random to come up with a solution!

*spins the wheel of Dims*

And the subforum is...

*Extreme Special Interests Archive*

...so the obvious solution is to kidnap these fatties and force-feed them to immobility!


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## Tracyarts (Jul 3, 2013)

It can be challenging, but if you live in an area which provides access to various services and programs to assist in independent living, you can get by just fine. Having access to those things is key though. I've known people (of all sizes) who needed a bit of help to live independently, and where they lived made all the difference in the world as to how restricted their life was. Given access to a good variety of assistive resources, the sisters you saw could live perfectly normal lives with few limitations. 

Tracy


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## Marlayna (Jul 3, 2013)

bigmac said:


> On the way home from work today I stopped for groceries at the local supermarket. As I walked by the handicapped parking I noticed a family loading up their GMC van. The family consisted of mom, dad, and two young adult daughters. Mom and dad looked to be about 50 and were both a little chubby. The daughters were both extremely fat (easily fat enough to warrant the handicapped placard). The smaller of the two was at least 450 pounds, the larger about 600 pounds. They were obviously suffering in the 100 plus degree heat. The smaller sister had to help push the larger into the van. The larger sister then helped pull her smaller sister in.
> 
> It occurred to me that these two young ladies were totally dependent upon their not so young parents. Once their parents can no longer provide care and transportation these women are going to be in a very difficult situation. I know that this is a size positive site but I'm not seeing anything positive about the situation these young women are in.


That is a shame, and it's sad to see. I have no answers, only prayers for anyone who's quality of life is impaired by their condition.


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## Tad (Jul 3, 2013)

Well, the same sad/difficult situation shows up with many disabilities. 

I guess the question is why the daughters are so fat and is it something that they could reasonably change (there are some disorders that aren't so visible that can make weight management very difficult)--but we have no way of knowing that. So, hopefully the daughters can become more independent, and if not then hopefully they can get help in managing their lives.


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## EtobicokeFA (Jul 3, 2013)

This thread is a little strange. So, the sisters, had trouble in 100 degree heat. I am 300 pounds yet I had trouble in 100 degree since I am not use to it. And I feel I can live without special assistance, at home.

I know people in 500 range that live in Nevada's 100 degree temps on their own it seems.

Can we be sure of the situation of these sisters?


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## bigmac (Jul 3, 2013)

EtobicokeFA said:


> *This thread is a little strange*. So, the sisters, had trouble in 100 degree heat. I am 300 pounds yet I had trouble in 100 degree since I am not use to it. And I feel I can live without special assistance, at home.
> 
> I know people in 500 range that live in Nevada's 100 degree temps on their own it seems.
> 
> Can we be sure of the situation of these sisters?



Yes I know its a little strange. These two women got me thinking about the limits of size positive thinking:

-- Is there a point when being size positive becomes a negative thing?

-- When does being supportive of a loved one become enabling?

-- What kind of aid is going to be provided and is their a better way (free gym memberships and even subsidized WLS may prove the cheaper and more effective route)?

I don't have the answers -- just some questions to ponder.


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## EtobicokeFA (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Yes I know its a little strange. These two women got me thinking about the limits of size positive thinking:
> 
> -- Is there a point when being size positive becomes a negative thing?
> 
> ...



My doctor would answer the first questions as as soon as my wife and I crossed into the overweight category on the BMI chart.

But, seriously these are not easy and clear cut questions. Every time I thought I had it figured out, someone pops up and proving me wrong.

The only thing that still hold out, is the observation that taller you are the most likely have a better time carry their weight that their shorter counterparts. Of course, with my luck, someone is going to pop up to prove me that wrong as well.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Yes I know its a little strange. These two women got me thinking about the limits of size positive thinking:
> 
> -- Is there a point when being size positive becomes a negative thing?
> 
> ...



Nobody has the answers. Health is such an individual matter that it has to be approached on a case-by-case basis. A one-size-fits-all approach (like the BMI) will always raise more problems than it solves because people are all different.


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## Jim Miller (Jul 4, 2013)

It's tempting to judge other people by the mere sight of them, and I've learned to expect that anti-fat attitudes are now the norm at Dimensions. I simply want to add this: What bigmac is describing is prejudice. He noticed those people's situation only because of their weight. The reality is that there are many, many, _many_ people in this country who are dependent upon someone else and who face extraordinary difficulties when that caretaker dies, gets sick, or goes away. This is not a "Look at the poor, sad fatties" problem, and I for one don't like it when fat people get singled out for what is actually a natural part of the life cycle of a human living in the developed world: There usually, almost inevitably comes a time when we need to rely on other people. That we worry--rightly--about what will come of ourselves and of others who reach that point has nothing to do with obesity. Our worrying is a consequence of our nation's inadequate healthcare system and of our misplaced priorities about helping the sick, disabled, and elderly. More than that probably belongs on the political board.


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## collared Princess (Jul 5, 2013)

I would say, that because they are both ssbbw's, then there must be something in the family that causes them to be that big. Apparently, they are getting along ok. We tend to adapt to situations because of our size. We just make things work. I get pulled up to the door of the store. I ride the buggy in the store, I get out and sometimes I can can put the bags in the van myself. My life is all about making things work and still having a good life. I'm sure that is what they do.


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## Tracyarts (Jul 5, 2013)

" We just make things work. I get pulled up to the door of the store. I ride the buggy in the store, I get out and sometimes I can can put the bags in the van myself. My life is all about making things work and still having a good life. I'm sure that is what they do. "

But do keep in mind that you are fortunate to have help making things work. If you had nobody to drive you to the store and drop you off at the door, or lived in an area where there were no ride-on buggies to use, then as common of a task as getting out and doing your own shopping would be impossible.

There are people of all sizes out there who end up homebound or placed in residential care facilities simply because they do not have somebody to drive them and drop them off, and do not live in an area where there is access to things like ride-on buggies at stores. There are both private and public programs to help keep people independent as possible, but not for everybody, and not everywhere. 

Tracy


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## bigmac (Jul 5, 2013)

Jim Miller said:


> It's tempting to judge other people by the mere sight of them, and I've learned to expect that anti-fat attitudes are now the norm at Dimensions. I simply want to add this: *What bigmac is describing is prejudice.* He noticed those people's situation only because of their weight. The reality is that there are many, many, _many_ people in this country who are dependent upon someone else and who face extraordinary difficulties when that caretaker dies, gets sick, or goes away. This is not a "Look at the poor, sad fatties" problem, and I for one don't like it when fat people get singled out for what is actually a* natural part of the life cycle of a human living* in the developed world: There usually, almost inevitably comes a time when we need to rely on other people. That we worry--rightly--about what will come of ourselves and of others who reach that point has nothing to do with obesity. Our worrying is a consequence of our nation's inadequate healthcare system and of our misplaced priorities about helping the sick, disabled, and elderly. More than that probably belongs on the political board.



This is just what I'm concerned about. Using fat acceptance to normalize something that shouldn't be. Its not part of the life cycle to be disabled and dependent in your early twenties.

How is it prejudice to what these girls to have the best possible shot at an independent life?

I'm thinking that what these girls need is help loosing at least enough weight so that they can function. What you're advocating is to just accept their condition. Fat acceptance at some point seems to becomes an obstacle rather than a help. 

The deaf community has had similar issues with some people opposing implants that would restore hearing.


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## Dromond (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm cringing at this whole thread. The question posed by the opening post is rhetorical at best. There is no way to know what life is really like for those two women, as all we have are the OPs third hand speculation.


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## bigmac (Jul 5, 2013)

collared Princess said:


> I would say, that because they are both ssbbw's, then there must be something in the family that causes them to be that big. *Apparently, they are getting along ok.* We tend to adapt to situations because of our size. We just make things work. I get pulled up to the door of the store. I ride the buggy in the store, I get out and sometimes I can can put the bags in the van myself. My life is all about making things work and still having a good life. I'm sure that is what they do.



If you think being a young adult and still being totally dependent on your parents is OK then we have totally different understandings of what "OK" means.


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## bigmac (Jul 5, 2013)

Dromond said:


> I'm cringing at this whole thread. The question posed by the opening post is rhetorical at best. There is no way to know what life is really like for those two women, as all we have are the OPs third hand speculation.



Obviously I only observed a small slice of their life -- but that slice didn't look good. My basic point is that sometimes its better to fight than to accept and that the idea of fat acceptance -- when taken to extremes -- can hinder the fight.

I could have made this point without using these young women as an example. However, since they were what got me thinking about the issue I did.

Some times a little cringing can be a good thing.


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## EtobicokeFA (Jul 5, 2013)

Dromond said:


> I'm cringing at this whole thread. The question posed by the opening post is rhetorical at best. There is no way to know what life is really like for those two women, as all we have are the OPs third hand speculation.



Great point. We can not judge these women lives on what could just be one of their bad days.


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## Jah (Jul 5, 2013)

If this kind of thing is rare, I don't see how it is a problem. In my whole life I've only ever seen a 600lb woman on the internet. I guess it's more common in the US?


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## Dromond (Jul 5, 2013)

Jah said:


> If this kind of thing is rare, I don't see how it is a problem. In my whole life I've only ever seen a 600lb woman on the internet. I guess it's more common in the US?



It's pretty rare in the US also. I've only ever met one person face to face who was over 600 pounds. There are several ladies who qualify at this site, but this site has a self-selecting bias toward larger people (obviously).


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## Donna (Jul 5, 2013)

bigmac said:


> On the way home from work today I stopped for groceries at the local supermarket. As I walked by the handicapped parking I noticed a family loading up their GMC van. The family consisted of mom, dad, and two young adult daughters. Mom and dad looked to be about 50 and were both a little chubby. The daughters were both extremely fat (easily fat enough to warrant the handicapped placard). The smaller of the two was at least 450 pounds, the larger about 600 pounds. They were obviously suffering in the 100 plus degree heat. The smaller sister had to help push the larger into the van. The larger sister then helped pull her smaller sister in.
> 
> It occurred to me that these two young ladies were totally dependent upon their not so young parents. Once their parents can no longer provide care and transportation these women are going to be in a very difficult situation. I know that this is a size positive site but I'm not seeing anything positive about the situation these young women are in.



The assumptions in this post and the subsequent pronounced judgments really irk me. Here we have a self proclaimed FA posting on a size acceptance site the same tired and incorrect assumptions general society makes. The same tired assumptions many super sized people fight on a daily basis. How do you know the situation of these two young ladies? How do you know they are dependent on their parents? Perhaps their struggle to get into the van had nothing to do with their size. Did you stop to ponder that maybe one or both suffer from a physical disability (MS or RA springs to mind immediately) not related to their size? 

And even if they were struggling due to their size and are dependent on their parents, it's none of your damned business to pass judgment on them. That's the sad situation here. And it's the reason many super-size folks hide away and don't go out much. It's why some of us have to take anti-anxiety medications. Because I don't care who you are, constantly feeling like you are a circus sideshow freak wears down even the most well adjusted of us. 

I inherited rheumatoid arthritis from my maternal Grandmother and as I age, it's progression has made walking or standing for a long time difficult. I use the electronic convenience vehicles when they are available. I often struggle to swivel in and out of my own car and my husband's van when I ride with him because of the pain and stiffness in my legs. I'm pretty observant anyway, but one would have to be blind and deaf NOT to hear the stage whispers and see the looks on some people's faces. In their eyes, I am a lazy fatty who eats all day long and is too lazy to walk around the store. The snickering pisses me off and the looks of pity make me furious. I ignore it and go about my business; I have to. And all of this is on a good day....don't fecking get me started on the folks who think it's acceptable behavior to comment on another person's body size. So let me repeat this again, with emphasis: *IT'S NONE OF YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS HOW OR WHY I (OR ANY OTHER SUPER SIZE PERSON) AM THE SIZE THAT I AM. *



:doh:


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## Dromond (Jul 5, 2013)

As an aside, I'd like to point out to the OP that it's really hard to gauge another person's weight at a distance. Each person carries their weight differently. It's nearly impossible to tell with any degree of accuracy.


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## cinnamitch (Jul 5, 2013)

It's threads like this that serve to remind me that no matter what, that there are people IN THIS VERY FORUM who view me as a freak. This is why people just give up.:doh:


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## Jah (Jul 5, 2013)

The OP's post seems very fat-phobic. I don't see how people being fat is really a problem. It's not like the whole world is turning fat to the point of immobility. So what if a minority of fat people need some assistance, I don't think it justifies people trying to force them to lose weight or harass them.


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## seavixen (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm going to make a few points, though I have no idea why I'm bothering.

1. *Minivans suck to get into*. My husband is chubby at worst, and he has just about as much difficulty getting into the side/back entrance of a minivan as I do. It's awkward, it's weird, and it sucks. I don't even want to think what kind of conclusions people have come to when they've seen a car full of us trying to pile into my friend's minivan for beach excursions, if this is the sort of automatic assumption made. Also, people do sometimes reach out to touch or support a loved one; that doesn't necessarily mean it's crucial. It can just be a gesture of affection. You're jumping to a lot of conclusions.

2. You have no idea whether that handicapped placard is because of these girls are not; if the parents own the van, it could also be one of theirs - *you cannot always see disabilities readily*. I am well into the size range you've just described, and I have no such thing, myself. However, my mom really should have one, as she has RA and heart failure. She hides it well, but she gets very sore and very tired very quickly. She's slightly chubby, but within normal size range.

3. It could easily be the case that the girls are not even used to getting in and out of that van. I think getting into any vehicle you're not used to is weird and awkward, but a minivan is especially so.

4. *You have absolutely no evidence that they live with or are dependent upon their parents*. You saw them once, out shopping together. Well, guess what? People occasionally shop together who don't even live in the same town, much less in the same house. Yes, even grocery shopping. I know this because it has applied to my life many times. I've shopped with friends (two of whom people have mistaken for my sisters), my mom and her husband, my dad when he was alive and visiting - and I'm sure I looked awkward trying to get in and out of my dad's gigantic truck, too. But it was neither a familiar vehicle to me, nor was I in any fashion dependent upon him. It irks me to think that this kind of assumption could even be made based upon one trip to the store.

5. Anyone can suffer in 100 degree heat. My husband suffers from heat more quickly than I do, as does my mother, and both are much smaller than me. This is a ridiculous point to bring up. *100 degrees is hot to most people*.

6. It is nobody's place but each individual to consider what needs to be changed in one's life, or what quality of life ultimately equals. These are all highly individual things, and size acceptance should be universal, just as other forms of equality and acceptance. How these girls, or I, or any other fat person, live(s) their life is absolutely nobody else's business, unless opinions are sought or invited. What I consider to be of quality in my life could easily be negative in others' view - but that is *my choice*, and *I will no more impose my idea of good living on anyone else than I will accept it being imposed upon me*.

The fact of the matter is that we can sit and argue about "enabling" in any aspect of life. We can talk about risks, we can talk about responsibility - we can discuss anything that pertains to any person's daily life, and we can find things to change and criticize, but that doesn't mean that, because it would be the right way in our own lives, it is for theirs. Some people invest and lose. Some people invest and gain. Some people thrive on certain diets, while others don't. Some people can run marathons, and some will never be able to, but will be far better at gymnastics than the runners. Some people will be fat, some will be thin, and some will go back and forth. Some will be obsessed with their appearance, and some won't. Some people will get married, some will have kids, some will own houses, some will have cats. I can tell you a reason to or not to do every single one of these things, but *none of it is any of my business*.

And this is none of yours. /endrealitycheck


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## Nose_body_knows (Jul 6, 2013)

Since the OP is determined to stick with his opinion and is trying to convince others to conform with him, Perhaps people should just ignore him.


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## bigmac (Jul 6, 2013)

The forgoing responses actually highlight my concern. There's some willful blindness and a whole lot of minimization going on when it comes to those the medical community would label the super-obese. Its a fine line -- the size acceptance community has a very positive impact when it helps fat people gain the confidence they need to live life to the fullest. However, and this is my point, the size acceptance community has a less positive impact if it facilitates dependence.

There is a subtle but real difference between saying people can be fit and healthy at any size and saying people can be fit and healthy at most sizes.

I certainly don't have any problem with being loving, caring, and accepting. But is it really loving and caring to lull people into complacency. I'm all for accommodation no matter what the reason its needed. However, there no reason we cannot simultaneously address the underlying reason the accommodation is needed.

It was probably a mistake to use a real life example since disagreement regarding minutia (e.g. doesn't matter if my weight estimation was off by 50 or even 100 pounds) seems to have blurred my actual point.


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## veggieforever (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> This is just what I'm concerned about. Using fat acceptance to normalize something that shouldn't be. Its not part of the life cycle to be disabled and dependent in your early twenties.
> 
> How is it prejudice to what these girls to have the best possible shot at an independent life?
> 
> ...



*I completely agree with you. There has to be a limit. I love Dimensions and think some of the best discussion forums are right here but people cannot shout PREJUDICE or attack another member simply for their stance, opinion or point of view. I am saddened even greater by the notion that if he were to be saying that the two girls needed to be fatter or immobile that his support would be deafening. There has to be a voice of reason and good sense that says the human body is simply NOT (and it isnt) designed to cope with that much fat around the organs and on the frame. I think big is beautiful but there are limits and I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that. A person CAN BE TOO FAT TO LIVE and if anyone says this is alright or condones someone committing suicide with food then shame on them! It is my opinion, as others have had theirs on here, and I, with the greatest of respect, am entitled to it.xXx*


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 6, 2013)

C'mon, bigmac. You're better than this line of thought.

How have you felt when someone has made an assumption about your wife based on her size? Making an assumption about someone based solely on their appearance IS straight-out prejudice, and that's exactly what you did here.

I am 550+ pounds. I would struggle mightily trying to get into a minivan. However, I work full-time at a professional 9-5 job, I'm surprisingly fit and flexible (partially thanks to water aerobics three times a week), my cholesterol, blood pressure, and blood sugar are all perfect, I'm engaged to be married, and moving to another country. One of my favorite things to do is travel. I am not dependent on ANYONE. 

Yet, if it had been me you saw struggling to get into that minivan, you would have made the same assumption about me. And before you think, "well, you're just a fluke" -- really give that some thought. How many racist people meet someone black who doesn't fit the stereotypes in their head and say "Oh, you're just a fluke?" How many hear about a wounded vet's family getting food assistance and say "It's okay, they really need it, but they're just a fluke?" It's the rallying cry of the prejudiced.


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## seavixen (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> The forgoing responses actually highlight my concern. There's some willful blindness and a whole lot of minimization going on when it comes to those the medical community would label the super-obese. Its a fine line -- the size acceptance community has a very positive impact when it helps fat people gain the confidence they need to live life to the fullest. However, and this is my point, the size acceptance community has a less positive impact if it facilitates dependence.
> 
> There is a subtle but real difference between saying people can be fit and healthy at any size and saying people can be fit and healthy at most sizes.
> 
> ...



You're missing the point. Your argument is based on a single observation that's riddled with assumptions, at the core of which is a whopper. You were quick to assume dependence. It probably didn't even occur to you that there might be no dependence involved - but one sighting of a family together does not a dependence or even a household make.

I'm not going to argue that there are many people who are not healthy at large sizes. Likewise, there are many people who aren't healthy at small, moderate, chubby...any size. And you know what? It's still not anybody's business.

You all can have your personal limits on what's attractive, but don't try to throw a moral high ground into it. You cannot possibly know the health of someone by their size - you have no access to their medical history, the factors contributing to any illness they might have, and so forth.

I have no more patience for people automatically assuming slim people are anorexic or sickly, either, by the way, so don't throw that at me. It doesn't apply. I'm not going to respond to this again, because this whole line of thought is just sickening, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm just going to leave this one piece of sense here: we are all responsible for our own choices. Some things may not be a matter of choice, in which case your statements are extra douchey. (I'm not even going to touch the suicide by food remark. Just wow. What an assumption.) But when it is, it's just flat not your business. We are all allowed to live our lives as we wish, and suggesting otherwise is never going to be okay with me. It doesn't matter if it's size, health, sexuality, lifestyle, or anything else. It's not okay.

Personal choice is sacred.


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## loopytheone (Jul 6, 2013)

I think the problem a lot of people are having here is the difference between using a person/situation/observation as an example to encourage thinking and debates and using an observation to pass judgement about the person observed. Unless I am very much mistaken Bigmac wasn't assuming anything about the people or their lifestyle, just saying that he saw those two big ladies and it got him thinking about problems large people in general can face with things such as codependence and such, using the two ladies as an example. That was how I interpreted it at least and I have to admit I am shocked by some of the responses on this thread.

To say that you can't be too fat is as foolish a statement as to say you can't be too thin or too muscular. Yes. Yes you can, in terms of health. As far as lifestyle problems are concerned, that is very individual to people. I don't think most people would be happy to be so large they are disabled, which can happen. I am not saying it will happen. There are plenty of mobile and healthy super size men and women on this very forum. On the other hand there are 300 and 400lb people who have their quality of life and physical freedom reduced by their weight. And being overweight CAN make other medical conditions worse. You are in denial if you think otherwise. I am not saying that all fat people will develop diseases or that all diseases will be made worse by added weight. But things such as diabetes and arthritis will be made worse by being extremely heavy. In the later case, that is just physics and you really can't argue with that. 

Anyway, these are my two pennies for what it is worth.


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## Blackjack (Jul 6, 2013)

veggieforever said:


> *people cannot shout PREJUDICE or attack another member simply for their stance, opinion or point of view.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



The amount of fat hate that you hold makes me wonder constantly why you're even here. You're incredibly insulting to fat people above your arbitrary limit of what's okay, and you act as though people who are fat should feel bad about how fat they are:



veggieforever said:


> *My point for anyone is WHY SHOULD slimmer and healthier members of our society accept their fellow human beings harming themselves?*



Also, you are entitled to your opinion- and likewise, others are entitled to call you out on the hateful bullshit that it is. The fact that you have an opinion is not armor against criticism, especially when the opinions you voice are directly offensive and insulting other members here.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 6, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> I think the problem a lot of people are having here is the difference between using a person/situation/observation as an example to encourage thinking and debates and using an observation to pass judgement about the person observed. *Unless I am very much mistaken Bigmac wasn't assuming anything about the people or their lifestyle*, just saying that he saw those two big ladies and it got him thinking about problems large people in general can face with things such as codependence and such, using the two ladies as an example. That was how I interpreted it at least and I have to admit I am shocked by some of the responses on this thread.
> 
> To say that you can't be too fat is as foolish a statement as to say you can't be too thin or too muscular. Yes. Yes you can, in terms of health. As far as lifestyle problems are concerned, that is very individual to people. I don't think most people would be happy to be so large they are disabled, which can happen. I am not saying it will happen. There are plenty of mobile and healthy super size men and women on this very forum. On the other hand there are 300 and 400lb people who have their quality of life and physical freedom reduced by their weight. And being overweight CAN make other medical conditions worse. You are in denial if you think otherwise. I am not saying that all fat people will develop diseases or that all diseases will be made worse by added weight. But things such as diabetes and arthritis will be made worse by being extremely heavy. In the later case, that is just physics and you really can't argue with that.
> 
> Anyway, these are my two pennies for what it is worth.



Not even touching the assumptions you make in the rest of your post, but for the bolded part - you ARE mistaken. He _assumed_ they were dependent on their parents and unhealthy. Neither of these are assumptions you can or should make just by looking at someone.


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## loopytheone (Jul 6, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Not even touching the assumptions you make in the rest of your post, but for the bolded part - you ARE mistaken. He _assumed_ they were dependent on their parents and unhealthy. Neither of these are assumptions you can or should make just by looking at someone.



Okay, you don't seem to be getting my point. Was he making assumptions about the people or was his posing hypothetical questions based on an observation he made?

And by all means, tell me about the assumptions I am making because to me I am being perfectly reasonable and if you are correct then I will not learn unless I know what I am supposedly doing wrong.


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## AuntHen (Jul 6, 2013)

veggieforever said:


> *I completely agree with you. There has to be a limit. I love Dimensions and think some of the best discussion forums are right here but people cannot shout PREJUDICE or attack another member simply for their stance, opinion or point of view. I am saddened even greater by the notion that if he were to be saying that the two girls needed to be fatter or immobile that his support would be deafening. There has to be a voice of reason and good sense that says the human body is simply NOT (and it isnt) designed to cope with that much fat around the organs and on the frame. I think big is beautiful but there are limits and I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that. A person CAN BE TOO FAT TO LIVE and if anyone says this is alright or condones someone committing suicide with food then shame on them! It is my opinion, as others have had theirs on here, and I, with the greatest of respect, am entitled to it.xXx*



but how do we know how much or what they eat just from glancing at them across a parking lot? I sure wouldn't want someone to judge me like that. People sometimes assume that all I eat is fast food and donuts in mass quantities and do not, want to or like exercise, it's so far from the truth... it makes me both sad and angry. People are fat for various reasons and fat acceptance fights for that. We have enough people (that do not know anything about us and our lifestyles) out there saying we are all just a bunch of lazy slobs with no self control and a death wish.


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## Deven (Jul 6, 2013)

veggieforever said:


> *I completely agree with you. There has to be a limit. I love Dimensions and think some of the best discussion forums are right here but people cannot shout PREJUDICE or attack another member simply for their stance, opinion or point of view. I am saddened even greater by the notion that if he were to be saying that the two girls needed to be fatter or immobile that his support would be deafening. There has to be a voice of reason and good sense that says the human body is simply NOT (and it isnt) designed to cope with that much fat around the organs and on the frame. I think big is beautiful but there are limits and I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that. A person CAN BE TOO FAT TO LIVE and if anyone says this is alright or condones someone committing suicide with food then shame on them! It is my opinion, as others have had theirs on here, and I, with the greatest of respect, am entitled to it.xXx*



Why are you here? Seriously. You are a constant source of condescension for fat people. "Your Opinion," that you certainly ARE entitled to, contradicts something else you posted in the fat shaming thread.



veggieforever said:


> *A persons weight is no more a strangers business than their sexual orientation. Members of the public who wish to do no more than ATTEMPT to shame and degrade a person (usually falls back on them thankfully) need to understand the boundaries of their opinions and is not a theatre event to publically hurt another human being. I would have to take a stand against them publically and fight fire with fire if they started to do that to someone else or even me on a bus or a train. When I hit 30 I just stopped giving a s**t and stand up to a**holes now. The world is a nicer sweeter place when we all just smile and get on. The best bus journey I had recently was when a beautiful lady of over 300lbs sat right beside me. Her soft, warm body was absolute bliss squished up next to mine and her warmth lulled me into a heavenly nap not to mention her soft and delicate perfume. The "Haters" should shut up and see the silver lining to every situation and mind their own business!xXx*



So, maybe everyone who is hating on these women should shut up and mind their own business.


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## Saoirse (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> The forgoing responses actually highlight my concern. There's some willful blindness and a whole lot of minimization going on when it comes to those the medical community would label the super-obese. Its a fine line -- the size acceptance community has a very positive impact when it helps fat people gain the confidence they need to live life to the fullest. However, and this is my point, the size acceptance community has a less positive impact if it facilitates dependence.
> 
> There is a subtle but real difference between saying people can be fit and healthy at any size and saying people can be fit and healthy at most sizes.
> 
> ...




Agreed. Im all for acceptance but ignoring issues is counter productive to size acceptance.


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## Mathias (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> On the way home from work today I stopped for groceries at the local supermarket. As I walked by the handicapped parking I noticed a family loading up their GMC van. The family consisted of mom, dad, and two young adult daughters. Mom and dad looked to be about 50 and were both a little chubby. The daughters were both extremely fat (easily fat enough to warrant the handicapped placard). The smaller of the two was at least 450 pounds, the larger about 600 pounds. They were obviously suffering in the 100 plus degree heat. The smaller sister had to help push the larger into the van. The larger sister then helped pull her smaller sister in.
> 
> *It occurred to me that these two young ladies were totally dependent upon their not so young parents.* Once their parents can no longer provide care and transportation these women are going to be in a very difficult situation. I know that this is a size positive site but I'm not seeing anything positive about the situation these young women are in.



I doubt I'll ever get a direct answer from you on this because broad brush generalizations are all you ever do to force your point, but how could you tell this? Did you speak to them? Did you know them? Did you befriend them in an attempt to get an insight into their home life?


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## cinnamitch (Jul 6, 2013)

Pfffttttttttttttttttt.


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## swordchick (Jul 6, 2013)

But you are not a freak, it is freaky to stare at fat people in the grocery store parking lot in 100 degree weather.



cinnamitch said:


> It's threads like this that serve to remind me that no matter what, that there are people IN THIS VERY FORUM who view me as a freak. This is why people just give up.:doh:


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## bigmac (Jul 6, 2013)

Deven said:


> ...
> 
> So, maybe everyone who is hating on these women should shut up and mind their own business.



Hating? Since when did being concerned about someone's welfare become hating?

As I type my wife's making a vegetarian lasagna -- trying to disguise vegetables as something I like -- I guess she's doing that because she hates me.


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## Dromond (Jul 6, 2013)

I've started about ten posts and erased them all. So I'll just say, words fail me.


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## Dromond (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Hating? Since when did being concerned about someone's welfare become hating?
> 
> As I type my wife's making a vegetarian lasagna -- trying to disguise vegetables as something I like -- I guess she's doing that because she hates me.



This is called "concern trolling."


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## bigmac (Jul 6, 2013)

Dromond said:


> This is called "concern trolling."



I messed up by commenting on these two women. I could have made my point without commenting on them. However, I still feel that the size acceptance community must address the issues I raise.

Over the last few years several super-size people who frequented Dimensions have died (most before their fiftieth birthday). The issues facing super-size people are far different than those faced by run of the mill fatties. If fat acceptance is ever going to be accepted by the general public it has to advocate for more than just accommodation.

The size acceptance community should be advocating for access to exercise and recreational activities, for the provision of nutritional counselling, for access to healthy foods, and (I know I'm going to be blasted for this) access to medical weight loss services.


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## Deven (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Hating? Since when did being concerned about someone's welfare become hating?
> 
> As I type my wife's making a vegetarian lasagna -- trying to disguise vegetables as something I like -- I guess she's doing that because she hates me.



Your "concern" that you raised immediately assumed that the women you saw have poor quality of life. Indeed, that might be the case here, but you saw only a small sample of it. _*You instantly judged them for what you saw.*_ My Mother and I are both heavy, with fake knees. Getting into a van, you'd easily see us helping each other get in. My prosthetic knee was done when I was a teenager, and hers... well, that's a can of worms. You'd pass the same judgement.

If you were trying to raise fitness awareness, you did it at the expense of some women you've never even met. By doing so, you essentially fat shamed them.


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## ed1980 (Jul 6, 2013)

I think that size acceptance is a huge issue. 

Let me try to explain myself, and I beg your pardon for not being very good with words, so that I have to ask you to focus on what I am trying to say instead of the words choice. 

But you see, I have a friend which is a ssbw. I don't realy know her weight, but I think it is about 250 Kg. You cannot call her disabled. She is a very successful engineer, has a amazing cuturure and a great sense of humour. 

In the other hand, her size means some limitations the she has to cope with. I mean, she cannot do stairs, walks slowly in flat terrain and feeld a desperate fear to fall when walking in a slope (even a light one). Also, she cannot drive and depending on the position she lays down, she cannot breath.

The reason I am telling this in this tread is that if in the one hand I think she is amazing and that she should feel like this too, in the other hand, I understand that her size means limitations for her and that limitations are not something pleasant to deal with. 

What is the relation of size acceptance with this whole issue? I mean, at least for me it is not black and at all .....


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## cinnamitch (Jul 6, 2013)

Do you honestly think we don't know that? That we haven't had it beaten over our heads for years? I mean come on we might be fat, we certainly aren't stupid. What is the magic number that we have to weigh before you and some of the others on here "do us a favor" and make us see the light of our awful habit? Praise be to Jesus we have our judges sitting before us it seems. Instead of some of you lecturing us, why not do something more constructive... like play in traffic.



bigmac said:


> I messed up by commenting on these two women. I could have made my point without commenting on them. However, I still feel that the size acceptance community must address the issues I raise.
> 
> Over the last few years several super-size people who frequented Dimensions have died (most before their fiftieth birthday). The issues facing super-size people are far different than those faced by run of the mill fatties. If fat acceptance is ever going to be accepted by the general public it has to advocate for more than just accommodation.
> 
> The size acceptance community should be advocating for access to exercise and recreational activities, for the provision of nutritional counselling, for access to healthy foods, and (I know I'm going to be blasted for this) access to medical weight loss services.


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## ConnieLynn (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm 49, 5'4, 350 lbs. Well employed, fully insured, dependent on no one EVER, walk up a mega flight of stairs to my apartment multiple times a day, and walk to work on occasion. I'm not a fan of walking, but it doesn't kill me. Perfect BP, cholesterol, blood sugar. 

I went to a pool party with older friends on the 4th and had a hell of a time getting in and out of their vehicle because I'm SHORT. My friend helped me in and out. Oh, and it was hot as rip, so I was sweating. 

I travel on occasion with my elderly parents, who have a handicapped sticker, and will sit in the tiny back seat of their compact car so my mother, who has MG but doesn't "look" disabled, can have the easier to get out of front seat.

Which of you fat police would judge me in these situations without a clue? Or maybe you wouldn't judge me at 350, but would judge me at 400, or whatever your "too fat" line happens to be.

I find this thread offensive. I hate seeing prejudice in this forum. How dare you judge on "appearance". By all means, if you have people dependent upon you, and you believe that those people can take action to improve their situation and become less dependent upon you, then that is your business. Otherwise, it isn't. 

I read this earlier today. It pretty much sums up how I feel about acceptance: _I believe in honoring the individual journeys and paths of people whether I understand them or not. I believe in letting people live their truth and trusting that it's right for them._


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## bigmac (Jul 6, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> C'mon, bigmac. You're better than this line of thought.
> 
> How have you felt when someone has made an assumption about your wife based on her size? Making an assumption about someone based solely on their appearance IS straight-out prejudice, and that's exactly what you did here.
> 
> ...



Since you brought up my wife I should tell you that her weight did cause her lots of problems. Like you she was fortunate in that despite her weight (max 522 lbs) she had low blood pressure and perfect blood work. However her weight made it almost impossible to climb stairs, she could only walk short distances, just getting up and going to work took a major effort. Despite her good metabolism her knees and ankles hurt 24/7. Eighteen months ago she was considering taking disability retirement (at age 41). Several of her co-workers thought she was not physical able to do her job -- and for many tasks they were not wrong. 

She decided that she didn't want to be disabled at 41 so she decided to have WLS (again and this time with a doctor who knew what he was doing). She decided that the quality of her life had deteriorated to a point that justified the risks of WLS.

My wife has a medical condition know as lipedema which results in the accumulation of abnormal fat cells in the lower body. Thus she was never going to be thin. If she had followed a healthy lifestyle she would have probably been a very pear shaped 250 pounds or so. Unfortunately she didn't live a healthy life and ate herself up to over 500 pounds (she'll freely admit that her eating was out of control). WLS allowed her to get her eating under control and she is now the pear shaped 250 pound BBW she was genetically programmed to be. 

Before we met my wife had been in contact with several FAs (some from the Dimensions community). These FAs were more than willing to encourage my wife's eating. Other people in the size acceptance community tried to convince her there was nothing wrong with being so fat. She came to the conclusion that the size acceptance community didn't have her best interests at heart and opted for WLS.


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## Deven (Jul 6, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since you brought up my wife I should tell you that her weight did cause her lots of problems. Like you she was fortunate in that despite her weight (max 522 lbs) she had low blood pressure and perfect blood work. However her weight made it almost impossible to climb stairs, she could only walk short distances, just getting up and going to work took a major effort. Despite her good metabolism her knees and ankles hurt 24/7. Eighteen months ago she was considering taking disability retirement (at age 41). Several of her co-workers thought she was not physical able to do her job -- and for many tasks they were not wrong.
> 
> She decided that she didn't want to be disabled at 41 so she decided to have WLS (again and this time with a doctor who knew what he was doing). She decided that the quality of her life had deteriorated to a point that justified the risks of WLS.
> 
> ...



So... why not use your wife as an example instead of strangers that you don't know the conditions of?


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## bigmac (Jul 6, 2013)

Deven said:


> So... why not use your wife as an example instead of strangers that you don't know the conditions of?



Fair point. Seeing the two women in the grocery store parking lot was what got me thinking about these issues.


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## vardon_grip (Jul 6, 2013)

Thank you for giving the people something to vent about.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 7, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since you brought up my wife I should tell you that her weight did cause her lots of problems. Like you she was fortunate in that despite her weight (max 522 lbs) she had low blood pressure and perfect blood work. However her weight made it almost impossible to climb stairs, she could only walk short distances, just getting up and going to work took a major effort. Despite her good metabolism her knees and ankles hurt 24/7. Eighteen months ago she was considering taking disability retirement (at age 41). Several of her co-workers thought she was not physical able to do her job -- and for many tasks they were not wrong.
> 
> She decided that she didn't want to be disabled at 41 so she decided to have WLS (again and this time with a doctor who knew what he was doing). She decided that the quality of her life had deteriorated to a point that justified the risks of WLS.
> 
> ...



I understand all of this. None of it is the point, though. My point was that you judged these two women without knowing them or what their particular conditions are. You've been part of this community long enough to know better than that. That's all I was trying to say.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 7, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> Okay, you don't seem to be getting my point. *Was he making assumptions about the people or was his posing hypothetical questions based on an observation he made?*
> 
> And by all means, tell me about the assumptions I am making because to me I am being perfectly reasonable and if you are correct then I will not learn unless I know what I am supposedly doing wrong.



Clearly you missed this statement he made:



bigmac said:


> It occurred to me that these two young ladies were totally dependent upon their not so young parents.



This absolutely, positively, unequivocally IS an assumption he is making about those two people. This is a statement. It is not a hypothetical question.


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 7, 2013)

bigmac said:


> I messed up by commenting on these two women. I could have made my point without commenting on them. However, I still feel that the size acceptance community must address the issues I raise.
> 
> Over the last few years several super-size people who frequented Dimensions have died (most before their fiftieth birthday). The issues facing super-size people are far different than those faced by run of the mill fatties. If fat acceptance is ever going to be accepted by the general public it has to advocate for more than just accommodation.
> 
> The size acceptance community should be advocating for access to exercise and recreational activities, for the provision of nutritional counselling, for access to healthy foods, and (I know I'm going to be blasted for this) access to medical weight loss services.



I agree with the points you make here. I highly doubt the black community could have ever made any head way without addressing concerns that were specific to us as a people. Failure to do so would have probably made us look like fools or like we just weren't very credible. I don't see the harm in advocating and resource sharing for those of the community with specific needs.


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## veggieforever (Jul 7, 2013)

Deven said:


> Why are you here? Seriously. You are a constant source of condescension for fat people. "Your Opinion," that you certainly ARE entitled to, contradicts something else you posted in the fat shaming thread.
> 
> 
> 
> So, maybe everyone who is hating on these women should shut up and mind their own business.



*I am certainly NOT "hating" but I would lilke to be the sane and rational "reality check" here, that being so fat you cannot function is a "good" or "commendable" things. I will never believe that a human body is meant to look lilke that - because its NOT! Big is beautiful and I DO prefer a larger body in partners (200lbs) so please DO NOT tell me what I do and and don't like because you DO NOT know me. The human body has limits and being so fat a young girl who should be active, energetic and mobile is not a prisoner in their own body and near immobility. That is NOT how is was meant to be! Fat is fine by me but getting to a stage of immobility is saddening and harrowing. Life is for living and you can't do it confined to a house or bed. Its warped that I am being treated like this for my opinion and stance on good health. it's undeniable that any SSBBW's health conditions from Osteo-Arthritis, Lymph Odema, Asthma, Diabetes etc etc are all greatly improved or even vanish with significant weight loss so stating that you are healthy at 500lbs is great - but you could be HEATHIER and diminish health issues through some healthier choices and easy going work-outs. I am not an advocate for skinny minnie's, I am talking sanity and good sense in daily choices for the sake of quality of life as well as longevity - but on here I am a monster for wanting the best for a persons wellbeing. I have not been proved wrong though, as soon as a person says anything to disagree with epic weight gain then we are all "haters". NO WE'RE NOT! Just to agree those girls or anyone that size is enjoying their life as much as they could near immobility or being too large to walk from the store to the car is not being honest. Those same SSBBW's at 20 will have some serious issues at 40 that will only get worse and worse and worse. I have said my piece and stand by my words because I believe them to be right and rational and good. If the right thing on here is to get applause from someone getting so large they are confined to their home and bed with a whole string of nasty ailments then I am proud to be wrong.*


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## veggieforever (Jul 7, 2013)

fat9276 said:


> but how do we know how much or what they eat just from glancing at them across a parking lot? I sure wouldn't want someone to judge me like that. People sometimes assume that all I eat is fast food and donuts in mass quantities and do not, want to or like exercise, it's so far from the truth... it makes me both sad and angry. People are fat for various reasons and fat acceptance fights for that. We have enough people (that do not know anything about us and our lifestyles) out there saying we are all just a bunch of lazy slobs with no self control and a death wish.



*Who said "fat slob"??? Neither me nor the original gent that posted. Only you. I know a whole line of skinny slobs! In fact I do not know one "fat slob" as you said tbh! He neither mentioned diet or working out in his post or made any assumptions bar one but it seems very likely these girls are being cared for by a parent or guardian as they would definately need something like that in their lives at their current weight to ensure their safety for falls, sleep aponea, bathing etc etc I see nothing terrible in his posting but I do see crazy things happening to anyone who shuns immobility and excessive weight gain on these forums! Fat is fine by me but the upper echelons of weight gain that lead to immobility and death will always concern me and I will never agree that it is a wise or good thing to participate in or encourage.*


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## veggieforever (Jul 7, 2013)

Blackjack said:


> The amount of fat hate that you hold makes me wonder constantly why you're even here. You're incredibly insulting to fat people above your arbitrary limit of what's okay, and you act as though people who are fat should feel bad about how fat they are:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, you are entitled to your opinion- and likewise, others are entitled to call you out on the hateful bullshit that it is. The fact that you have an opinion is not armor against criticism, especially when the opinions you voice are directly offensive and insulting other members here.



*"fat hate", "offensive", "hateful" - to say what??? Being too fat to move is not a healthy or wise thing to do??? So, I guess me and a gazillion doctors, bariatric nurses, paramedics and nutritionists world wide are a bunch of crackpots then??? I laugh at you both for such non-sensical slanders as I hate no-one. Hate is such a strong word and you have misused it. I have said something you cannot accept so the rattle has been thrown out of the pram. You have your POV and I have mine. I will always advocate health and quality of life and wanting the best for someone. That makes me a bad person, eh??? I don't think so. The exact opposite, might I add. Have a long, hard think about what you are advocating and it's consequences short and long term. It's utter madness.*


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## bigmac (Jul 7, 2013)

cinnamitch said:


> It's threads like this that serve to remind me that no matter what, that there are people IN THIS VERY FORUM who view me as a freak. This is why people just give up.:doh:



I'm not following your logic. Who said anything about being viewed as freaks. Are you implying I view members of my own family as freaks?

As far as giving up goes -- IMHO its the willful blindness to and minimization of the extremely negative consequences of extreme fatness that fosters "giving up" or at least a fatalistic complacency.


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## FatAndProud (Jul 7, 2013)

I miss the old Dimensions


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## tankyguy (Jul 7, 2013)

Being fat isn't a problem. Being so fat it severely impairs your quality of life is.

People are too binary. Acknowledging that loss of mobility and many of the health problems that go along with extreme obesity are bad and may not be what someone _wants_ is not the same as saying fat people are bad, or that they shouldn't be loved because of or despite their size, or that they shouldn't be afforded the same respect as any human being.

Understanding there are serious downsides to being fat is not the same as hating fat people. 

Thin isn't the same as healthy.
Fat isn't the same as unhealthy.

But being unable to move and live your life the way you want *isn't healthy or good*.
It doesn't matter if it's because you're obese or because you're skeletal.


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## amidsttundra (Jul 7, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> Being fat isn't a problem. Being so fat it severely impairs your quality of life is.
> 
> People are too binary. Acknowledging that loss of mobility and many of the health problems that go along with extreme obesity are bad and may not be what someone _wants_ is not the same as saying fat people are bad, or that they shouldn't be loved because of or despite their size, or that they shouldn't be afforded the same respect as any human being.
> 
> ...



But my point is "No shit."

Does it need banging home here as well as everywhere else online and in the real world.

The assumptions and rhetoric in this thread are absurd and condescending.

So to re-iterate: Being extremely obese is bad for your health and wellbeing.

Because we didn't realise this prior.

Maybe some people aren't wilfully blind, perhaps they simply want a haven where they can feel good about themselves without having to think about the types of assumptions the OP in the OP make about them.

Thank god there are so many people with so many agenda's and guilt issues to remind us all of this. Who needs the mainstream media.


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## bigmac (Jul 7, 2013)

amidsttundra said:


> But my point is "No shit."
> 
> Does it need banging home here as well as everywhere else online and in the real world.
> 
> ...



You're missing the real issue. The issue isn't whether or not fat people can be healthy and happy (many are). The issue is whether or not certain aspects of size acceptance as expressed here are actually detrimental.


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## ashmamma84 (Jul 7, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since you brought up my wife I should tell you that her weight did cause her lots of problems. Like you she was fortunate in that despite her weight (max 522 lbs) she had low blood pressure and perfect blood work. However her weight made it almost impossible to climb stairs, she could only walk short distances, just getting up and going to work took a major effort. Despite her good metabolism her knees and ankles hurt 24/7. Eighteen months ago she was considering taking disability retirement (at age 41). Several of her co-workers thought she was not physical able to do her job -- and for many tasks they were not wrong.
> 
> She decided that she didn't want to be disabled at 41 so she decided to have WLS (again and this time with a doctor who knew what he was doing). She decided that the quality of her life had deteriorated to a point that justified the risks of WLS.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing this. I have a friend who had WLS because of reasons similar to your wife's. She was younger though at about 34 or 35. I saw up close how limited her life was and how it depressed her. She said all her labs were normal and in healthy ranges, but she didn't feel like that was the be all end all for indicators of health. Her joints and back were a major source of pain. She didn't have an active social life like most do, especially at that age.

She still has issues with ankles and knees but she wasn't quite as keenly aware of the damage she did to her body until she lost 200 lbs. Today, I think she's a different person. It's like she's gotten a new lease on life. She's no longer stuck in a dead end job (she was great at what she did but would never get promoted), which enables her to live on her own and date and have a semblance of a life. In her experience she felt trapped and limited by her weight because she was over 500 lbs. She's playing catch up because she didn't date much like her conventionally attractive peers but as a friend I'm just happy she's out and about and making mistakes and growing as she goes along.

I hope the intent of your post isn't getting lost in delivery. Because outside of using those two young women as an example you have very valid points. Something that in all my years here I haven't really seen addressed. It's kind of odd because I'm apart of other communities that makeup how I self identify and on the whole, we are invested in each others well being. It's apart of building rapport, relationship, and by extension community. In one of the communities I am in for gay women of color - we don't live and die by "minding our own business" because we're all in it together. We are accountable for each other because we know if even one of us is doing bad, it affects the whole. To me, that's activism (albeit on a small scale).


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## ConnieLynn (Jul 7, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since you brought up my wife I should tell you that her weight did cause her lots of problems. Like you she was fortunate in that despite her weight (max 522 lbs) she had low blood pressure and perfect blood work. However her weight made it almost impossible to climb stairs, she could only walk short distances, just getting up and going to work took a major effort. Despite her good metabolism her knees and ankles hurt 24/7. Eighteen months ago she was considering taking disability retirement (at age 41). Several of her co-workers thought she was not physical able to do her job -- and for many tasks they were not wrong.
> 
> She decided that she didn't want to be disabled at 41 so she decided to have WLS (again and this time with a doctor who knew what he was doing). She decided that the quality of her life had deteriorated to a point that justified the risks of WLS.
> 
> ...



I understand your concern for your wife, a person in your family who you love. I understand what it is to worry about the health of a loved one, regardless of the health condition or cause. But these were her experiences and her choices. I'm sorry, but being part of her situation doesn't excuse the judging of others. 

With this thread, you are painting fat folks with the same broad brush strokes of judgment that we face every single day. It quacks like prejudice.

Are all fat people healthy? No. Are all FAs princes? No. Are all BBWs women of substance? No. But many are. You can't judge all situations based on one situation.

The biggest part of SA for most of the people here is reaching a point where we see ourselves as acceptable, to both ourselves and others. We are all adults and can make our own decisions about what works for us. We don't need fat judgment in this place.


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## Deven (Jul 7, 2013)

veggieforever said:


> *I have said my piece and stand by my words because I believe them to be right and rational and good. If the right thing on here is to get applause from someone getting so large they are confined to their home and bed with a whole string of nasty ailments then I am proud to be wrong.*




Which set of words? The ones from this thread or the ones for the fat shamers thread, where you described someone else's weight as "A persons weight is no more a strangers business than their sexual orientation?"

Honestly, I only said something to you because every post I see from you hasn't been very nice, but I don't venture to the same places you do all the time. I also found your hypocrisy hilarious. I agree that the community as a whole needs to address fitness.



bigmac said:


> You're missing the real issue. The issue isn't whether or not fat people can be healthy and happy (many are). The issue is whether or not certain aspects of size acceptance as expressed here are actually detrimental.



The funny thing, mac is I agree with your intent. Your judgement of those women, however, is what I disagree with. Unhealthiness is an issue for many, but you did exactly what most of us complain about: judge. As if those girls don't get enough from people who don't accept them, you are judging people you supposedly accept. Using them as an example was classless, but I am starting to expect nothing less from you anymore.


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## FatAndProud (Jul 7, 2013)

This reminds me of the thread about the fats eating a croissant on the subway. 

Why do you continue to be a member of this forum, if you are focused on the negatives of obesity? We try to prove ourselves just as competent, IF NOT MORE, than our thinner counterparts. It's bad enough I'm verbally abused as a fat woman, stared at, laughed at, and unjustly judged for outward appearance. 

Do I believe that all skinny people are dependent on crack or opiate abuse? No, because I don't know them and I know what it's like to be judged. Do I look at thin people and assume anorexia or extreme exercising habits? No, I don't. Do I look at thin people and see them as a potential hazard to themselves, as low body mass is a sign of sickness? No. 

So, why do you look at me and come to ridiculous, pseudoscientific, invalid assumptions about how we live? Where is the human decency?


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## Dromond (Jul 7, 2013)

There appears to be more than one concern troll in this thread. My mind is blown by the attitude on display. Is too much of a good thing bad? Well, duh. But is it really necessary to hammer it home in one of the few places that is supposed to be safe for fat people to hang out without being judged?


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## loopytheone (Jul 7, 2013)

Dromond said:


> There appears to be more than one concern troll in this thread. My mind is blown by the attitude on display. Is too much of a good thing bad? Well, duh. But is it really necessary to hammer it home in one of the few places that is supposed to be safe for fat people to hang out without being judged?



Well technically isn't the main board for any size/size related issue? That is what it says in the board description at least. This is a size related issue regardless of whether you agree with it/like it/find it repulsive etc etc.


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## tonynyc (Jul 7, 2013)

FatAndProud said:


> This reminds me of the thread about the fats eating a croissant on the subway.
> 
> Why do you continue to be a member of this forum, if you are focused on the negatives of obesity? We try to prove ourselves just as competent, IF NOT MORE, than our thinner counterparts. It's bad enough I'm verbally abused as a fat woman, stared at, laughed at, and unjustly judged for outward appearance.
> 
> ...



*T*hat croissant subway thread was a classic- but, seeing as to how some big folks here in the city won't put up with any guff or crap- most strangers keep their mouths shut.

Now... you do bring up an interesting thought- we tend to "judge" an individual's level of "health" by their appearance - heck the person doing the extreme exercise , _"current"_ bodybuilding lifestyle (also comes at a price) - there was a website of many bodybuilders expiring before the age of 40 or acquiring life altering ailments because of the lifestyle (kidney disease - cardiovascular disease). Those Supersized Sisters could have better genetics than your "fitness fanatic"


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## amidsttundra (Jul 7, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> *T*hat croissant subway thread was a classic- but, seeing as to how some big folks here in the city won't put up with any guff or crap- most strangers keep their mouths shut.
> 
> Now... you do bring up an interesting thought- we tend to "judge" an individual's level of "health" by their appearance - heck the person doing the extreme exercise , _"current"_ bodybuilding lifestyle (also comes at a price) - there was a website of many bodybuilders expiring before the age of 40 or acquiring life altering ailments because of the lifestyle (kidney disease - cardiovascular disease). Those Supersized Sisters could have better genetics than your "fitness fanatic"



I was actually thinking about this the other day. Bodybuilding, especially those (not all) who have used physical stimulants have a tendency to die young (look at former members of WWF). 

Conversely, a number of studies into excessive exercise have shown that:
"Chronic extreme exercise appears to cause excessive wear-and-tear on the heart."

Certain diets have a detrimental effect on health. 

Lots of perceived healthy activity _can_ shorten life.

Conversely many people who engage in these activities will lead long lives. I'm not debating that being extremely obese can shorten ones life and alter how they live their lives, but generalizing and assuming is asinine. I'm fit and healthy, but I work in a dangerous industry on some of the most dangerous ships on the sea. My life expectancy can be everything from tomorrow until I'm 125, you simply cannot say what kind of lives and life expectancy people will have from a momentary encounter in a car park being debated third hand.


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## Jah (Jul 7, 2013)

If a supersize person is happy with themselves I don't see why they have to lose weight. Shouldn't what a person does with their body be their choice.


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## bigmac (Jul 7, 2013)

Dromond said:


> There appears to be more than one concern troll in this thread. My mind is blown by the attitude on display. Is too much of a good thing bad? Well, duh. But is it really necessary to hammer it home in one of the few places that is supposed to be safe for fat people to hang out without being judged?





Apparently my concept of what is and what isn't being judgmental differs from yours. I observed two fat young women with significant mobility issues and commented that this was sad. I fail to see how this is any different than seeing a young person in a wheelchair and thinking its sad. Or seeing a young person with severe burns and thinking its sad.

A difference of course is that the young person in a wheelchair and the young burn victim wouldn't have people trying to talk them out of therapy or surgery.


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## bigmac (Jul 7, 2013)

FatAndProud said:


> This reminds me of the thread about the fats eating a croissant on the subway.
> 
> Why do you continue to be a member of this forum, if you are focused on the negatives of obesity? We try to prove ourselves just as competent, IF NOT MORE, than our thinner counterparts. It's bad enough I'm verbally abused as a fat woman, stared at, laughed at, and unjustly judged for outward appearance.
> 
> ...



First, I don't focus on the negatives of being obese -- but I don't sugar coat facts. 

Second, I'm part of the fat community. All through grade school I was always the fattest kid (i.e. I was the only kid in my first grade class who weighed more than 100 pounds). As an adult being fat has affected my employment on several occasions. I know it can suck to be fat.

Third, I don't believe I was making invalid assumptions. The two young ladies I observed had serious mobility issues. That's an observation not an assumption.

Fourth, while I'll readily admit that I'm not the most subtle person, I'll object to being accused of lacking human decency. Its my opinion that certain aspects of "fat acceptance" can actually do more harm than good. I fail to see how pointing this out makes me subhuman.


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## FatAndProud (Jul 7, 2013)

bigmac said:


> First, I don't focus on the negatives of being obese -- but I don't sugar coat facts.
> 
> Second, I'm part of the fat community. All through grade school I was always the fattest kid (i.e. I was the only kid in my first grade class who weighed more than 100 pounds). As an adult being fat has affected my employment on several occasions. I know it can suck to be fat.
> 
> ...



You do focus on the negatives of obesity, as I follow several of your posts on this forum. You believe because you and your wife are/were fat, that you can make hateful, judgmental statements over a group of people that you feel you "belong". However, it sounds to me as though you are the fat kid that has some self-hatred and believes that the only way to feel relief is by projecting your hate upon those similar to you. That, truly, is sad. You let being fat affect you. 

I do believe you make LOTS of invalid assumptions. I believe you like to hear what you say/read what you post/and revel in your self-imposed martrydom. That's sad. You're not fighting with the community, but rather against it. 

Fat acceptance isn't about someone eating themselves to death and being okay with it. Fat acceptance is about tolerance, understanding, and alternate behavior toward people of size. Don't perform witch hunts because our BMI is over the norm. You disappoint me bigmac.


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## olwen (Jul 7, 2013)

veggieforever said:


> *I am certainly NOT "hating" but I would lilke to be the sane and rational "reality check" here, that being so fat you cannot function is a "good" or "commendable" things. I will never believe that a human body is meant to look lilke that - because its NOT! Big is beautiful and I DO prefer a larger body in partners (200lbs) so please DO NOT tell me what I do and and don't like because you DO NOT know me. The human body has limits and being so fat a young girl who should be active, energetic and mobile is not a prisoner in their own body and near immobility. That is NOT how is was meant to be! Fat is fine by me but getting to a stage of immobility is saddening and harrowing. Life is for living and you can't do it confined to a house or bed. Its warped that I am being treated like this for my opinion and stance on good health. it's undeniable that any SSBBW's health conditions from Osteo-Arthritis, Lymph Odema, Asthma, Diabetes etc etc are all greatly improved or even vanish with significant weight loss so stating that you are healthy at 500lbs is great - but you could be HEATHIER and diminish health issues through some healthier choices and easy going work-outs. I am not an advocate for skinny minnie's, I am talking sanity and good sense in daily choices for the sake of quality of life as well as longevity - but on here I am a monster for wanting the best for a persons wellbeing. I have not been proved wrong though, as soon as a person says anything to disagree with epic weight gain then we are all "haters". NO WE'RE NOT! Just to agree those girls or anyone that size is enjoying their life as much as they could near immobility or being too large to walk from the store to the car is not being honest. Those same SSBBW's at 20 will have some serious issues at 40 that will only get worse and worse and worse. I have said my piece and stand by my words because I believe them to be right and rational and good. If the right thing on here is to get applause from someone getting so large they are confined to their home and bed with a whole string of nasty ailments then I am proud to be wrong.*







bigmac said:


> Apparently my concept of what is and what isn't being judgmental differs from yours. I observed two fat young women with significant mobility issues and commented that this was sad. I fail to see how this is any different than seeing a young person in a wheelchair and thinking its sad. Or seeing a young person with severe burns and thinking its sad.
> 
> A difference of course is that the young person in a wheelchair and the young burn victim wouldn't have people trying to talk them out of therapy or surgery.



What if you both got into a horrible accident that changed your lives forever? Would either of you really sit around and feel sorry for yourself and want everyone around you to pity you the horrible terrible miserable sad unfortunate existence that would obviously be your awful horrendous disgusting life and wonder what they should have done or said to you to keep from getting into that horrible accident in the first place? If you got into that accident in the first place people would assume you obviously weren't smart to begin with and you should have been monitored by some responsible government agency in the first place...It's obvious people who get into life altering accidents should not exist and should know better than to let themseles get sick or disabled in the first place...Frankly, I'd blame the society we live in for not having systems in place to protect people like you from yourselves. 

Seriously tho, the absurd part is that you both seem to think living with any type of disability or illness is sad. It's just not your place to say what you think the other person's life MUST be like because you think it would be horrible for you. This attitude is paternalistic, offensive, and almost selfish. The thought of this happening to you scares the shit out of you so you project your fears on fat people. It's not productive. 

Why so many people seem to feel like they know best or should have some sort of control over my life or my health boggles my mind every. single. fucking. time. I have to think about this. It's troubling to know that other people wonder whether or not I know whether or not my life is miserable without knowing a damn thing about my life. The assumptions are almost comically absurd. And even if a fat person is dealing with some shit quess what? That's their shit to deal with, not yours. You have zero control, so get over it. If they want help they'll ask for it. Your pity, ire, anger or whatever isn't necessary or wanted. GET OVER IT.


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## amidsttundra (Jul 7, 2013)

^^Repped! To the nth degree!


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

you can't definitely know someone's condition at a distance but it is pretty obvious when someone is in distress. as fellow humans we are very good at looking at facial expressions and body language so on some level we do know. i think weight limits vary from person to person. some people have to tap out at 200lbs others are over 600lbs. the ability to carry weight is so individual. i do think Mac has enough info, experience and lack of prejudicial fat opinions to know pretty much what he was looking at --even if not the particulars. he's definitely not an uniformed newbie. i doubt he is chomping at the bit to say that anyone should lose weight. an even better question is what about when this is happening to our friends and ourselves? what do we do then? how do we react? how do we tailor our politics in ways that are freeing for everyone to be able to comfortably take care?

i'm so sorry for these girls. they are so young for this. i think it's different when you are older and have gotten to have certain experiences but when you are this young and in that situation it IS a life narrowing experience at best and frightening at the worst when it comes to what happens after their parents are no longer alive. even when you are very social and have lots of positive friends and contacts, as for instance some web models have had, it's still very easy to end up very ill alone and helpless.


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

ashmamma84 said:


> I agree with the points you make here. I highly doubt the black community could have ever made any head way without addressing concerns that were specific to us as a people. Failure to do so would have probably made us look like fools or like we just weren't very credible. I don't see the harm in advocating and resource sharing for those of the community with specific needs.



yep, keeping your head in the sand gets you nowhere. all it does is make a big joke out of acceptance when it doesn't account for all of the things that could happen and how to either head them off or fix them.


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since you brought up my wife I should tell you that her weight did cause her lots of problems. Like you she was fortunate in that despite her weight (max 522 lbs) she had low blood pressure and perfect blood work. However her weight made it almost impossible to climb stairs, she could only walk short distances, just getting up and going to work took a major effort. Despite her good metabolism her knees and ankles hurt 24/7. Eighteen months ago she was considering taking disability retirement (at age 41). Several of her co-workers thought she was not physical able to do her job -- and for many tasks they were not wrong.
> 
> She decided that she didn't want to be disabled at 41 so she decided to have WLS (again and this time with a doctor who knew what he was doing). She decided that the quality of her life had deteriorated to a point that justified the risks of WLS.
> 
> ...



i'm glad she realized that there are a lot of people who care more about their politics than they would her personally. i'm sure there are a lot of people who wished they had seen it earlier. i wish her the best in doing what she see fit for you and herself without being maligned, pigeon holed or vilified or having the same done to you because you supported her in her choices. she is lucky to have real love and support.

i have seen people over time who got into bad shape come to the community for help to the very same people who encouraged them. when they asked for help they were ridiculed just as badly as if they'd asked the general uninformed public for help. one asked for help for a computer so that she could keep in touch with people who were her only lifeline. it didn't matter that she had been a popular web model and that when she was healthier she was the toast of the town or that even now she is some kind of legend. suddenly she was a user and most didn't want to hear her plaintiff cries for help because they didn't fit with their politics or fantasy life. i'm so glad for your wife that she never got into that situation. and, i'm so proud of you for not letting her get there. we disagree about a lot of things but i have to give you total respect for putting her before ideas politics passions or anything else and for having the heart to see strangers and worry for them too. thank you for caring Mac. so many don't truly care at all one way or another as long as it isn't them. they aren't even willing to put it on the line with their friends who need them but they are happy to tell other people how to live and what to think. but if it doesn't work out for somebody they're out of there.

i think it's weird that people don't see this as a springboard to think about how we can avoid this and that the answer doesn't not have to necessarily be dieting or that being fat is bad. i was very disappointed in the narrow points of view that don't have more to do with figuring out how to take better care of ourselves and each other and making suggestions to that effect.


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

amidsttundra said:


> But my point is "No shit."
> 
> Does it need banging home here as well as everywhere else online and in the real world.
> 
> ...




reality has it's place everywhere, even here. but i do find it odd that you say being "obese" is bad for your health as though it must be inevitable. it might not have to be if you don't go into it blind folded and ignorant and if the truth is not ignored. if a haven is full of lies of mission is it still a haven if it unnecessarily contributes to people being ill prepared and uninformed? 

the idea that absolutely everyone who comes here must know they can possibly get into to trouble when there is so much rhetoric saying that you can gain as much as you like, some even scientific, is kinda ridiculous. we need to be just as responsible here about safety as people are on S&M sites etc... they have a lot of rules and lots of open discussion about what could happen because it is the responsible thing to do. we should as well.

there are plenty of fantasy oriented threads here for people to enjoy. they never have to look into threads that cover realistic issues at all if they don't want. but it should be here for people who need the knowledge. otherwise we are complicit in bad outcomes by hiding helpful info, experiences and thoughts we could be sharing. there is nothing safe" about that.


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

ashmamma84 said:


> I hope the intent of your post isn't getting lost in delivery. Because outside of using those two young women as an example you have very valid points. Something that in all my years here I haven't really seen addressed. It's kind of odd because I'm apart of other communities that makeup how I self identify and on the whole, we are invested in each others well being. It's apart of building rapport, relationship, and by extension community. In one of the communities I am in for gay women of color - we don't live and die by "minding our own business" because we're all in it together. We are accountable for each other because we know if even one of us is doing bad, it affects the whole. To me, that's activism (albeit on a small scale).



excellent!!!! all of this it's not my business and not my concern stuff is so disheartening. what point is there to be here if it isn't to care for each other?


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Clearly you missed this statement he made:
> 
> 
> 
> This absolutely, positively, unequivocally IS an assumption he is making about those two people. This is a statement. It is not a hypothetical question.



but you've just made a judgment. life is all about judgments. we have to make a judgement about when it's best for us to wake up and to go to bed. the real concern should be the intent of those judgments. surely you aren't saying the intent of his observations are the same as a fat haters intent?


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 7, 2013)

The person I was responding to said he had not made any assumptions. I was pointing out an assumption he clearly made. That is all.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 8, 2013)

Here's the thing about this thread:

Would it be useful to have a discussion here encouraging activity and getting out of the house among all members? Absolutely. 

But this thread started off with an assumption made about two people based on their size, and it's done nothing but foster negativity. 

"Oh god, isn't it sad that some people are so fat they can't move well and need help" is going to do nothing but make people who have mobility issues feel shamed, pitied, and like shit. (Ableism is alive and well here.)

"Hey, let's talk about how we can make regular activity and HAES a bigger part of the lives of members of this forum" would have been approaching the issue with a completely different attitude and would have accomplished what OP says he wanted to accomplish without making some of us (yes, us) feel like crap. 

I am regularly active, I practice balanced eating, and have for quite some time, and my weight is still unchanging. I am mobile to a big extent (as I said, I work 9 to 5, I do my own grocery shopping sans electric cart, travel, etc), but I won't be hiking up mountains or riding rollercoasters any time soon, and yes, that makes me sad if I dwell on it. 

I come here to get *away* from "helpful reminders" that my worldview and my experiences are "narrowed" due to my size, and UPLIFTED by reminders of all I DO accomplish, and CAN accomplish. And you know what? The size acceptance movement and HAES philosophy has reminded me that I should NOT let my size hold me back, and thanks to that I do NOT sit at home and do nothing. Thanks to hearing what I CAN do instead of what I CAN'T do, I do more. 

Study after study demonstrates that fat shaming does nothing but make the health of its victims worse, while the HAES moment and encouraging people to love their body at whatever size it is actually encourages them to take better care of it. "Helpfully reminding" people of all they can't do because they clearly aren't doing what you think they should be doing is no better than people who stop fatties on the street and express "concern for their health." Making fatties feel bad accomplishes nothing, and that IS what's happening here.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> The person I was responding to said he had not made any assumptions. I was pointing out an assumption he clearly made. That is all.



even so we do know the poster. he is not a stranger to us. should we be behaving as though he is? is that constructive? we should have an idea of what his intentions are after all of these years. honestly i think this is what usually happens when there is a touchy thread and people would like to avoid the issue altogether--like what happens when we need care and it might be hard to get.

what if loved one's that might be depended on are not there for us one day? they could get ill. they could have an accident. what do we need to do to plan? if people want to talk about serious fat phobia and it's implications you can be sure that if these girls had to go into a long termed independent or dependent care facility they'd probably be much more likely to die from a simple ailment or mistreatment than from family care. like average size folk lots of fat folk die from simply treated infections that go bad or bad wound care for bedsores they would not even have if their family was caring for them. so finding a way not to need that care is a smart thing to do. the things that go on in places even with average sized people much less than with possibly fat phobic caregivers are horrendous and definitely worth thinking about honestly. 

i apologize beforehand for saying so but honestly the discussions about a long termed fat supporters intentions are truly minutia in contrast to what could happen to a fat person in the total control of a fat phobic healthcare industry.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 8, 2013)

That's exactly the thing, Felecia - he is assuming those two women, and the 400+ pound members of this forum, are not already doing everything they can to alleviate the possibility of being fully reliant on their parents. Just because someone is past the size someone thinks is "acceptable" does NOT mean that person is not being active or eating well. That is not a fair assumption to make.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> That's exactly the thing, Felecia - he is assuming those two women, and the 400+ pound members of this forum, are not already doing everything they can to alleviate the possibility of being fully reliant on their parents. Just because someone is past the size someone thinks is "acceptable" does NOT mean that person is not being active or eating well. That is not a fair assumption to make.



i honestly think it sparked his imagination about what could happen and i think that we'd be safe in taking it in the spirit it was meant in, unless you really think he meant for us it fat hate on these women? he already apologized for using them as a example in that way. can't we move on to something more constructive from there? there might be people here who actually have not thought about every aspect of making plans and could be helped with the discussion. no matter that someone is active or eating well at some point they still may need help for basic living. we may be active and eating well but it still may not isolate us from something disruptive happening to care we happen to be dependent on while we are doing that or some accidental event like a fall that causes us to suddenly need help we did not need before.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 8, 2013)

This thread is not going anywhere positive at this point, in my opinion. There have already been too many bad feelings engendered by what's happened thusfar. If we want to have a discussion about HAES, let's have a discussion about it - but on a different thread and perhaps after things have smoothed over from this topic. That would be my suggestion, at least. I doubt it will be followed, but...


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> This thread is not going anywhere positive at this point, in my opinion. There have already been too many bad feelings engendered by what's happened thusfar. If we want to have a discussion about HAES, let's have a discussion about it - but on a different thread and perhaps after things have smoothed over from this topic. That would be my suggestion, at least. I doubt it will be followed, but...



it could if we really wanted it to. but i have to go to bed i have an early morning. love ya


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## BigBeautifulMe (Jul 8, 2013)

Love you too (even when we disagree. )


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

gnight. i have another one of my memes lol: 

View attachment 1005166_540000172730745_565291520_n.jpg


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## amidsttundra (Jul 8, 2013)

There is some confusion here about the difference between assumption and an observation.

_as·sump·tion (-smpshn)
n.
1. The act of taking to or upon oneself: assumption of an obligation.
2. The act of taking possession or asserting a claim: assumption of command.
*3. The act of taking for granted: assumption of a false theory.
4. Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition: a valid assumption.
5. Presumption; arrogance.*
6. Logic A minor premise._

An observation would be: Two very large girls struggled into a van.

An assumption would be: Two very large girls struggled into their van _because_ they are overweight.

It doesn't matter how likely an assumption is, it is still not fact. 

A few months ago I bust my foot, an observer would say a man walked past hobbling. An assumption could be anything from he's pretending to be disabled to he must be disabled.

If you don't know somebody you are not qualified to make a judgement and I'm sorry but seeing two people in a carpark for a matter of moments is about as small a microcosmic sample of their lives as imaginable and not the starting point to a thread tackling their assumed disability and its wider implications. 

It's no different than the guy getting ripped apart in the Fat Sexuality board for calling a larger girls boyfriend a "loser." My old boss used to have a saying:
"Assumptions make an ASS of U and ME."

And I never said being obese was bad for your health or generalized as broadly. Again, you are putting words in my mouth, I said:

"So to re-iterate: Being extremely obese is bad for your health and wellbeing.

Because we didn't realise this prior." 

I was re-iterating the point certain members are making on this thread, not my own beliefs. Also, what is your definition of Extreme Obesity? Because I'm willing to bet it's wildly different to mine.


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## Wild Zero (Jul 8, 2013)




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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

amidsttundra said:


> There is some confusion here about the difference between assumption and an observation.
> 
> _as·sump·tion (-smpshn)
> n.
> ...



maybe i for got how to read english or something...

having said all of that. regardless of what in reality was happening with those women. what should people do to prevent either getting themselves in that predicament or what can they do if they do happen to end up needing help ad it's hard to come by. semantics be damned. let's brainstorm on how to help somebody out for a change instead of worrying about being right on minutia. if it helps i'll say okay you win. can we please move on to what could really help people now?


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## Morganer (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> *Apparently my concept of what is and what isn't being judgmental differs from yours. I observed two fat young women with significant mobility issues and commented that this was sad.*



I can see some problems with that. I feel you made a judgement. The judgement made was that when you saw the two women, you judged them to have mobility issues. You then felt that this was sad. I can see some taking issue with this.

It would be the same as if I, for example, saw someone with tattoos, and assumed that person to be trouble. It is simply not necessarily true. Especially if I do not know that person, or saw them for the first time.. We just cannot know, and the benefit of the doubt is in play.

You also mentioned wheelchair-equipped van, and disability placards. Now, without having been there, and without having saw what you saw, I would _assume_ (yes, making an assumption here, I could be wrong.. Got that out of the way. I fee that necessary, in case this post gets assailed some way some how. Let's move on) - that it was the full-size GMC van, I think they call it a Savannah, based off the Chevrolet Express. That is a nice-sized van, and with the size and cargo of what you indicated, I would assume the van to be that. Then, being in California where the 100-degree plus is probably a regularity, I would assume it to have air conditioning. What relevance does _any_ of that have? It simply begs the question: What if those handicap placards, and that vehicle, were a real asset to them, and really helped them get around, and is, in fact, the opposite of the _severe mobility issue_ you assumed them to have?

I also was strongly tempted to mention a certain large SSBBW from NYC's appearance on Tyra Banks sometime in about 2007 or so, that person also was assailed to "appear to have significant mobility issues walking onto the stage," but the alleged bad health angle was not there, and if it was, was incorrect. You can Google it, and see articles come up with the same, exact phrase you used: _significant mobility issues_.

So, looks can be deceiving.


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## amidsttundra (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> maybe i for got how to read english or something...
> 
> having said all of that. regardless of what in reality was happening with those women. what should people do to prevent either getting themselves in that predicament or what can they do if they do happen to end up needing help ad it's hard to come by. semantics be damned. let's brainstorm on how to help somebody out for a change instead of worrying about being right on minutia. if it helps i'll say okay you win. can we please move on to what could really help people now?



I'm sorry, I'm hardly arguing semantics. I hate this nannying, patronising attitude some are displaying. As if some people are on a crusade to make overweight people healthy and stop all this self denial they're apparently displaying by daring to visit websites such as this.

Are those girls reading this site? Chances are they are not. So in what effect are we helping them? What exactly are you hoping to achieve by making an example of two strangers?

Are we looking for a means to couple fat acceptance with healthy living? If so a positive mental outlook is a good place to start. People visit sites like this often to reaffirm that there are people who don't make lazy assumptions about them on a single glance. If a larger girl (350lbs+) posts a picture of herself and gets lots of positive comments is she being objectified? Are hordes of FA's convincing her that she's fat and beautiful and demonstrating a total disregard for her health in doing so?

What I'm reading here is that people connected to fat acceptance are burying their heads in the sand and denying overweight people their chance at life because they're being enabling and encouraging to remain overweight.

Next time a 350+lbs man or woman posts a picture on here we should say:
"Yes you are beautiful, but have you thought about your mobility in the future? Is your area adequately equipped if mobility becomes a problem in the future? Are you happy at that weight? You could be happier if you lost weight and theoretically your health would also be better."

Is the assumption that people who visit this site so naive that they haven't thought about the effects their weight has on their lives? Is it possible that perhaps they simply want somewhere they can feel good without judgement?

I'm all for the Fat Acceptance movement looking at ways to help others, but like any kind of social assistance it has to be pitched in a manner that doesn't patronize and nanny, because frankly people don't like to be patronized and nannyed. 

So by all means, tell me what the end goal of this thread is? What people are we helping and in what manner do you want to help them? You obviously feel this is the place and to a degree I agree with you, but I disagree in the preaching overbearing manner some are approaching the subject and you can throw me into that pile if you like.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> reality has it's place everywhere, even here. but i do find it odd that you say being "obese" is bad for your health as though it must be inevitable. it might not have to be if you don't go into it blind folded and ignorant and if the truth is not ignored. if a haven is full of lies of mission is it still a haven if it unnecessarily contributes to people being ill prepared and uninformed?
> 
> the idea that absolutely everyone who comes here must know they can possibly get into to trouble when there is so much rhetoric saying that you can gain as much as you like, some even scientific, is kinda ridiculous. we need to be just as responsible here about safety as people are on S&M sites etc... they have a lot of rules and lots of open discussion about what could happen because it is the responsible thing to do. we should as well.
> 
> there are plenty of fantasy oriented threads here for people to enjoy. they never have to look into threads that cover realistic issues at all if they don't want. but it should be here for people who need the knowledge. otherwise we are complicit in bad outcomes by hiding helpful info, experiences and thoughts we could be sharing. there is nothing safe" about that.



Seems to me that you are talking about separate issues. At least I see separate issues here.

You're right in that the members of the BDSM community _are _actively engaged in educating each other because what we do is dangerous. Period. Having a bad outcome negatively impacts the rest of the community and there is a huge community. There is emphasis on informed consent and enthusiastic consent. Without consent there is abuse. 

The issue with gaining is that as far as I know, people don't go out and get together in person specifically to share safety information and form organizations and talk extensively about consent, techniques, legal issues, emotions, health, relationships, and whatnot. And part of the reason _is because_ there is so much shame, fear, and miseducation around fatness. 

I would consider gaining to be a form of edge play (even if some don't involve bdsm aspects into it, it's still edgy to me) and that the players should keep RACK principles in mind. That's just my opinion on the matter tho. If they want to do it and go to extremes then they have to be willing to take the risk. If they regret what they do, (which happens in kink communities, which is why emphasis is placed so heavily on consent and negotiation skills) then it's just a fate they have to accept and deal with in whatever way they need to. It's just up to the gaining/feeding community to organize themselves and have regular workshops, demos, and lectures about health within what they do. Education in the BDSM community is constant and never ending. The more you know the better time you'll have. It's harder to have those kinds of constructive discussions online, for sure but it's not for someone who doesn't practice their sexuality to come in and say what they should be doing. Members of that community have to do it themselves. Felicia, if you are a member of that community maybe you should try to start organizing the people in your area.) But the people who are engaged in the fantasy deserve to have a place where they can explore it without judgement, fear, or shame. They'll figure things out as they go along. 

For people who are not kinky (and I really do consider gaining to be a kink), then wellness is a separate issue. It's better to have HAES support, emotional support, and a sharing of resources in a group that has nothing to do with sexual fantasies. This site is not that place, so the expectation that people should come here and be educated about the risks of extreme fatness (even if they are not kinky) seems unrealistic to me now. If only because there is no organization along those lines. There was a time when I thought fat fantasy and fat activism could exist in the same place but it really can't. 

People who are very fat and who want resources, emotional support, and even just to chat and not think about being fat for like an hour should also be able to do that without judgement or fear. And again, this site is probably not the best place for that. And online spaces like that are usually started by people who are political about health and wellness because they are in the best place mentally to maintain that kind of space and hash out whatever health issues need to be hashed out between members. But if I were in a space like that and constantly heard other people saying they felt sorry for me or constantly worry about how I would take care of myself over a certain weight I wouldn't stay. That doesn't seem supportive to me. That just seems like it would foster and environment of fear, paternalism, and alienation. Like if someone were constantly shouting at me "Do it my way, or ELSE!" Even if the intentions were good, the approach wouldn't work for me.


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## Archetypus (Jul 8, 2013)

Just because you're insecure about your choices does not make you the victim nor does it grant you the right to impudently control the dialogue or silence the conversation. Cry more.

Further, if someone is so fat their lives are significantly negatively impacted, that is bad. This isn't my opinion, this is reality. If you disagree, you live in a fantasy and your bullshit is irrelevant.

Finally, "fat acceptance" should be understood as empowerment toward improvement and not exploited to justify poor decision making. Strength of character is essential if you wish to be taken seriously. This thread lacks it (with notable exceptions of rationality). I encourage the OP to continue the conversation, stimulate friction, and stop recanting. 

Insecure fat folks who found their reason to be offended in this thread, I am posting this tune for you. Lyrics in the descrip...

http://youtu.be/33cuybrKPmU


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> People who are very fat and who want resources, emotional support, and even just to chat and not think about being fat for like an hour should also be able to do that without judgement or fear. And again, this site is probably not the best place for that. And online spaces like that are usually started by people who are political about health and wellness because they are in the best place mentally to maintain that kind of space and hash out whatever health issues need to be hashed out between members. But if I were in a space like that and constantly heard other people saying they felt sorry for me or constantly worry about how I would take care of myself over a certain weight I wouldn't stay. That doesn't seem supportive to me. That just seems like it would foster and environment of fear, paternalism, and alienation. Like if someone were constantly shouting at me "Do it my way, or ELSE!" Even if the intentions were good, the approach wouldn't work for me.




i can understand this and i can empathize with this. but i also see a chicken and egg problem.

one is the need to not think about being fat. i agree. i doubt if a fat site is a lace for that. it is very easy it post elsewhere without a pic and talk about stuff anyone else would. the whole point of being here is that there IS a fat slant to things. whether someone is into gaining or movies or fashion--there is a fat way to do things that will come out here and make everyone's experience better.

i can understand people not wanting to think about the fact that even other fat people may worry about them. but a lot of us would be lying if we said that we were not concerned about ourselves or other people who were in pain, had difficulties that weighed on people emotionally and physically. it is the truth. and this truth is not based in fat hate so it's nothing like what people might getting from a prejudiced family member or the public etc.. we aren't aiming for people to diet down to average. that alone might bring a dose of reality into a situation that may spark people to get medical help for something that may not even be fat related --of we can openly share info

there are a lot of so called "safe" fat places on the web. none of them are that dynamic when i compare them to other places i visit for my activism interests because they all have the same habit of limiting what people can discuss and how. in a way i think the fat community has a way of projecting shame and embarrassment among people where there should be none. IMO this is part of the reason there has not been the kind of progression this front that there should be and the community has not led when there has been opportunities to make changes and impact people positively.

in all the years i have been in the community i have seen very few open honest discussions anywhere about how to deal with these issues on a constructive basis. yet the same people are often very willing to openly and publicly gossip and speculate about notables in the community by name and their health in a non constructive and negative way and it is fully tolerated. i find this depressing and hypocritical. 

the strange thing is that the un-named fat women might not even recognize themselves in the original post, but if they did read it and people responded constructively the may have learned something to make their lives easier. we are always missing opportunities like that. i think that is why the community has shrunk drastically ad lost it's dynamism. i think on the whole it is all too negative in ways that really matter -- like embarrassment in ourselves in our total truth and helping each other out with encouragement and ideas. there are people here who are just as suspicious of everyone here as they are with the general public. it makes me wonder why they even bother. see tend to feel like the "safe place" thing is a bit of the do it my way thing.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

Archetypus said:


> Just because you're insecure about your choices does not make you the victim nor does it grant you the right to impudently control the dialogue or silence the conversation. Cry more.
> 
> *Further, if someone is so fat their lives are significantly negatively impacted, that is bad. This isn't my opinion, this is reality. If you disagree, you live in a fantasy and your bullshit is irrelevant.
> *
> ...



It's only for the person who is dealing with being fat to say what is bad and what isn't. This begs the question "what is good health, and who gets to determine what good health is?" It really isn't the same for everyone. The assumption that it should be is impractical. It's an unrealistic expectation. 100% of people won't be in the same health state 100% of the time. For someone who is disabled for whatever reason the answer is different from someone who is not. The people who are dealing with the issues should be the ones to dominate the conversations about their lives and not be beholden to people who think they know better. Everyone has different coping skills and different needs so blanket moral statements about health and disability are just not productive. 

It's like people are saying that disabled people shouldn't exist. Fat people shouldn't exist and that to me is bullshit. I exist whether people like it or not. And anyone who has a problem with my existence at whatever state it's in really just need to get over it.


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## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

I hate this post.


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## loopytheone (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> It's like people are saying that disabled people shouldn't exist. Fat people shouldn't exist and that to me is bullshit. I exist whether people like it or not. And anyone who has a problem with my existence at whatever state it's in really just need to get over it.



I'm not being funny here, but you are not the first person to say this and I really don't understand where you are getting this from at all. Care to explain?


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> I'm not being funny here, but you are not the first person to say this and I really don't understand where you are getting this from at all. Care to explain?



i didn't see that either. i was thinking it was more about pitching ideas around how fat people could exist and to keep them from not existing because of death from neglect when there might not be anyone caring enough around to help one day.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i can understand this and i can empathize with this. but i also see a chicken and egg problem.
> 
> one is the need to not think about being fat. i agree. i doubt if a fat site is a lace for that. it is very easy it post elsewhere without a pic and talk about stuff anyone else would. the whole point of being here is that there IS a fat slant to things. whether someone is into gaining or movies or fashion--there is a fat way to do things that will come out here and make everyone's experience better.
> 
> ...



Because of all the societal shame we are inculcated to it. It makes these issues very personal and very difficult to discuss. And we all have different feelings about it. People who are dealing with weight related issues do know about their reality. The tone for discussion is the key. I just don't think a big brother type of concern is constructive. I feel it is patronizing. I know what aspects of my health are related to my weight and I deal with it. What's so hard to understand about that? I deal with it. That someone else shouldn't want me to deal with it doesn't make all that much sense to me.

Just as an example, it's taken me a long time to learn to not comment on other people's feelings about WLS. It's not for me to say what they should and should not do. I of course have my feelings about it and know it's not a viable option for me. I will never do this for any reason. I would rather die from whatever else I'm going thru than have a WLS. Other people don't feel that way tho and I respect that. Talking to them about whatever conerns I might have puts them on the defensive and shuts down the conversation. I had to learn this the hard way. 

Recently I ran into a woman who I thought was beautiful and lovely at a size 22. She had the gastric sleeve done and she's now a size 14. I felt betrayed because we had fat girl bonded already and I liked her. But I had to remind myself that I'm not the boss of her underpants. And her body is about her and not my own. I am not the designated overseer of fat bodies. All I can do is respect her decision. As bad as I think WLS is, I'm not going to berate someone for doing it. I feel like it should be the same with me. People should respect my choices. If I'm not asking for help or if it's not obvious that I would want help then it shouldn't be offered. When that does happen to me I think it's about that person's feelings about fatness and not really about me at all. I just happen to be there. 

If it really is a situation where it's perfectly clear another fat person needs help and doesn't know how to ask for it then help can be offered. I just think...saying that doses of reality are needed isn't productive. We are all living our own realities. _Obviously _we know what the reality is. We really do. How or why we are fat is irrelevant. We are. We know this. We know how much medicine we need or how mobile we are or how fed up or happy or depressed or whatever. It's not productive to throw it in people's faces and say that because we exist we must not know what we are doing to ourselves...concern is one thing, judgement is another. Can concern be expressed without a paternalistic tone? Can we not assume other fatties _must _be needing help because they crossed some assumed line of acceptable fatness? I personally find this attitude frustrating. It makes me not want to participate in SA spaces. (Also I've had to deal with racism from within and I'm not down with that, and I don't have the patience for it.) 

I really do feel that it's actually okay for people to exist in varying states of health and wellness. Why so many people insist this should not be so makes me wonder what the motivation behind this attitude is. Some people can walk down the stairs and climb mountains and some people are confined to beds and need assistance for daily activities. So it's really and truly okay for everyone to exist as they are and to learn whatever it is they need to learn in that state and deal with whatever they need to deal with without being made to feel like shit in the process or like they fail at owning a body. It just...it is what it is.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> I'm not being funny here, but you are not the first person to say this and I really don't understand where you are getting this from at all. Care to explain?



Whenever someone tells me that I need to lose weight it's like they may as well be saying "How dare you exist in a fat body? This is unacceptable and we must eradicate all fat bodies because we find them disgusting." 

Any time any group is persecuted it's another way of saying that the group doing the persecution doesn't want the other group to exist. Racists don't want brown people to exist. Giving someone a death threat is a pretty clear indication that they don't want you around. Every time an institution like a government agency implements a plan to eradicate a problem they are saying they don't want that problem to exist. And to a lot of people fat people are a problem to be solved, not people who should be allowed to just live their lives.


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## tankyguy (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i didn't see that either. i was thinking it was more about pitching ideas around how fat people could exist and to keep them from not existing because of death from neglect when there might not be anyone caring enough around to help one day.



I think regular cardio exercise and stretching are important for anyone. If you focus on strengthening your heart and lungs, and moving around enough to do so, you can reduce the problems that commonly go with obesity. Because it's more a sedentary lifestyle that's the problem than a person's size. I'd say fat+active is better than skinny+couch potato, all in all.

And if you don't want to lose weight or get smaller, you can increase your food intake to offset the calories you're burning exercising. If you do that, your weight will probably _increase_...from muscle mass gained.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> Because of all the societal shame we are inculcated to it. It makes these issues very personal and very difficult to discuss. And we all have different feelings about it. People who are dealing with weight related issues do know about their reality. The tone for discussion is the key. I just don't think a big brother type of concern is constructive. I feel it is patronizing. I know what aspects of my health are related to my weight and I deal with it. What's so hard to understand about that? I deal with it. That someone else shouldn't want me to deal with it doesn't make all that much sense to me.
> 
> Just as an example, it's taken me a long time to learn to not comment on other people's feelings about WLS. It's not for me to say what they should and should not do. I of course have my feelings about it and know it's not a viable option for me. I will never do this for any reason. I would rather die from whatever else I'm going thru than have a WLS. Other people don't feel that way tho and I respect that. Talking to them about whatever conerns I might have puts them on the defensive and shuts down the conversation. I had to learn this the hard way.
> 
> ...



1) part of the aim of acceptance should be to shed societal shame not enhancing it and perpetuating it. anything worthwhile is difficult and sometimes we need to push ourselves or at the very least not try and push people who've escaped the shame back into it for the sake of people who are not there yet. who are they supposed to learn the lack of shame from? and how?

2) this thread is not advocating WLS by any stretch of the imagination especially since the discussion was not even allowed to evolve. health for a fat person is not a false dilemma between throwing all caution to the wind and having WLS. maybe those things could be explored if people were allowed to communicate in freedom. 

3) there are some fat people who_ might not_ know what is needed. some don't have access to healthcare, some may become fat at a fast rate, some don't have access to empathetic healthcare. there are a lot of people who have not been around the community or even know what HAES is. assuming that everyone knows exactly what you may know is not helpful either to people who may not have every piece of info they need because they aren't as experienced. sometimes people do share similar illnesses or symptoms in such a large group or they know someone who has something similar. we can help a lot. sometimes there is even something very small someone can say that really changes someone's life totally for the better. we can't assume that nothing another fat person has to say about health is absolutely of no value to someone else. you don't know that either. better to err on the side of too much info than too little ignorance is not bliss.

4) in my experience the people who seem most paternalistic of fat people are those who claim to be protecting them as though we all feel exactly the same. can't fat folk decide for themselves to take or leave opinions they may come in contact with from people on a site for supporters? i don't care for the idea of fat folk being treated as though they are too helpless to deal with anything real. and who gets to decide what opinions they have access to and those they don't? to me that is he epitome of paternalism--people deciding for me ahead of time what opinions are good for me as one of those super sized women that are being discussed and assuming i am either too weak or too stupid to click off if i don't like the convo.

5) absolutely no one said these women should be killed or forced to have WLS or that they should not allowed not be fat at all.


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## Dromond (Jul 8, 2013)

cinnamitch said:


> I hate this post.



This thread sucks.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> 1) part of the aim of acceptance should be to shed societal shame not enhancing it and perpetuating it. anything worthwhile is difficult and sometimes we need to push ourselves or at the very least not try and push people who've escaped the shame back into it for the sake of people who are not there yet. who are they supposed to learn the lack of shame from? and how?
> 
> 2) this thread is not advocating WLS by any stretch of the imagination especially since the discussion was not even allowed to evolve. health for a fat person is not a false dilemma between throwing all caution to the wind and having WLS. maybe those things could be explored if people were allowed to communicate in freedom.
> 
> ...



Access to healthcare is a separate and involved issue. WLS was just an illustrative example. I'm not making blanket statements about what people should do with their bodies. 

If people are ignorant of issues it's on them to learn the issues. If they don't know the issues exist then they don't know. I think it's more caring to let people just be and not force concern onto them. Some people won't want it. It's not erring on the side of caution to potentially alienate people, which is what this thread has done.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> Access to healthcare is a separate and involved issue. WLS was just an illustrative example. I'm not making blanket statements about what people should do with their bodies.
> 
> If people are ignorant of issues it's on them to learn the issues. If they don't know the issues exist then they don't know. I think it's more caring to let people just be and not force concern onto them. Some people won't want it. It's not erring on the side of caution to potentially alienate people, which is what this thread has done.



like AM said this is the only "community" i know of that preaches the "it's on you" doctrine. why be a part of any community at all then?and this is not a place for them to come and learn some things because...? there are fat people here? i hate to think what would have happened to gay people or black people if they had taken this position. and i think it's the main reason the community hasn't progressed as far. it's like the republican party of fat acceptance. excuse me republicans.


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## ScreamingChicken (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> like AM said this is the only "community" i know of that preaches the "it's on you" doctrine. why be a part of any community at all then? i hate to think what would have happened to gay people or black people if they had taken this position. and i think it's the main reason the community hasn't progressed as far. it's like the republican party of fat acceptance. excuse me republicans.



More Liberterian but I digress...


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

ScreamingChicken said:


> More Liberterian but I digress...



lol well at least i didn't say tea party.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> I think regular cardio exercise and stretching are important for anyone. If you focus on strengthening your heart and lungs, and moving around enough to do so, you can reduce the problems that commonly go with obesity. Because it's more a sedentary lifestyle that's the problem than a person's size. I'd say fat+active is better than skinny+couch potato, all in all.
> 
> And if you don't want to lose weight or get smaller, you can increase your food intake to offset the calories you're burning exercising. If you do that, your weight will probably _increase_...from muscle mass gained.



agree with that. and activity is also helpful because it allows us to socialize more and get out among friends more and become less isolated. i know if i don't walk as much for a while i really feel it. i have nerve induced peripheral neuropathy and movement makes all of the difference.


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## ScreamingChicken (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> lol well at least i didn't say tea party.



And for that I am most grateful LOL :bow:


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## bigmac (Jul 8, 2013)

Since I've been demonized by so many I'm not feeling like sugar coating this. 

Lets look at this this way: Some situations are happy some sad:

-- Your child graduating from high school -- happy;

-- Your child getting his or her first job -- happy;

-- Your child going off to college -- happy;

-- Your child introducing you to his or her new boyfriend/girlfriend -- happy;

-- Your child moving into his or her first apartment/house -- happy.

Your child weighing 600 pounds with significant mobility issues -- NOT HAPPY! And not a situation that should be "accepted" without a fight. If that's being judgmental so be it.

Notice I said the situation should not be "accepted" not that the fat person shouldn't be accepted.


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## Blackjack (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since I've been demonized by so many I'm not feeling like sugar coating this.
> 
> Lets look at this this way: Some situations are happy some sad:
> 
> ...



Also not happy: being a judgmental sack of shit.


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## amidsttundra (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Your child weighing 600 pounds with significant mobility issues -- NOT HAPPY! And not a situation that should be "accepted" without a fight. If that's being judgmental so be it.



But you simply do not know that that is the case. However likely your assumption, it is just the same lazy assumption others make about larger people.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> like AM said this is the only "community" i know of that preaches the "it's on you" doctrine. why be a part of any community at all then?and this is not a place for them to come and learn some things because...? there are fat people here? i hate to think what would have happened to gay people or black people if they had taken this position. and i think it's the main reason the community hasn't progressed as far. it's like the republican party of fat acceptance. excuse me republicans.



It's difficult to have the kind of fat community you seem to want because health is so personal and everyone is in a different place as far as acceptability is concerned. Agreement won't happen if people are telling other people how to be fat and if people feel like they are being attacked by whoever over whatever. That's the problem. If a community is just about exercise or just about sexuality or just about fashion it works better because the purpose is singular and clear. This site isn't. There's too much going on. 

I just don't spend time in bbw communities that involve dating any more for this reason. I keep in touch with the friends I've made and I stick to fatshion groups because I love clothes. I spend more time in kink community because there are a million ways to do it and it's organized and no one is telling me I'm not an acceptable size or telling me they are concerned about any weight related issues. If they express concern it's to make sure I know everything I need to know to not hurt someone in a bad way, and those people have become a second family to me. Most folks are warm and welcoming and will educate anyone who asks.

If you want to have a way to let other members know they can go to a certain place for specific health information then maybe be more active on the health board, post a ton of resources, and be welcoming and invite people to participate. That's all you need to do. People who want info will go and people who don't wont. And that should be that.


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## bigmac (Jul 8, 2013)

amidsttundra said:


> But you simply do not know that that is the case. However likely your assumption, it is just the same lazy assumption others make about larger people.



Really? You don't need to know the exact details to know that this is a bad situation. 

It just this kind of willful blindness that undermines the fat acceptance movement.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since I've been demonized by so many I'm not feeling like sugar coating this.
> 
> Lets look at this this way: Some situations are happy some sad:
> 
> ...



You can't separate the person from the situation. That person has to decide how they want to handle it. Be all the concerned you want, but forcing concern onto other people doesn't work. I can't make an alcoholic friend get help if he doesn't want it. He knows he has problems and he has to figure it out. Everything I say will go in one ear and out the other. I'm not denying it's a difficult situation to be super sized, but I deal with it and I don't like other people telling me I'm not supposed to be happy at the size I am or that I'm not supposed to be the size I am or any other thing related to what they think my life should be like or passing judgement on how I live my life. My life is my business and no one else's. Do you understand this?


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## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

AMEN! When I want advice from some "concerned" people, I will be sure and ask



olwen said:


> You can't separate the person from the situation. That person has to decide how they want to handle it. Be all the concerned you want, but forcing concern onto other people doesn't work. I can't make an alcoholic friend get help if he doesn't want it. He knows he has problems and he has to figure it out. Everything I say will go in one ear and out the other. I'm not denying it's a difficult situation to be super sized, but I deal with it and I don't like other people telling me I'm not supposed to be happy at the size I am or that I'm not supposed to be the size I am or any other thing related to what they think my life should be like or passing judgement on how I live my life. My life is my business and no one else's. Do you understand this?


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## ConnieLynn (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> It's difficult to have the kind of fat community you seem to want because health is so personal and everyone is in a different place as far as acceptability is concerned. Agreement won't happen if people are telling other people how to be fat and if people feel like they are being attacked by whoever over whatever. That's the problem. If a community is just about exercise or just about sexuality or just about fashion it works better because the purpose is singular and clear. This site isn't. There's too much going on.
> 
> I just don't spend time in bbw communities that involve dating any more for this reason. I keep in touch with the friends I've made and I stick to fatshion groups because I love clothes. I spend more time in kink community because there are a million ways to do it and it's organized and no one is telling me I'm not an acceptable size or telling me they are concerned about any weight related issues. If they express concern it's to make sure I know everything I need to know to not hurt someone in a bad way, and those people have become a second family to me. Most folks are warm and welcoming and will educate anyone who asks.
> 
> *If you want to have a way to let other members know they can go to a certain place for specific health information then maybe be more active on the health board, post a ton of resources, and be welcoming and invite people to participate. That's all you need to do. People who want info will go and people who don't wont. And that should be that*.



This ^^^^.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

cinnamitch said:


> AMEN! When I want advice from some "concerned" people, I will be sure and ask



i'm curious . when people are not necessarily giving you advice personally do you know how to avert your eyes or leave the room while those who want to see or listen or discuss do? or do you stay and make noise and tell them they are not allowed to talk about it together because you don't personally agree?


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

Blackjack said:


> Also not happy: being a judgmental sack of shit.



you mean kinda like you?


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

ConnieLynn said:


> This ^^^^.



lol. i wondered how long it would take for the "move this thread to where it will not be seen because we disagree" play to be called for.


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## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

When you talk about fat people and saying how if they have health issues it HAS to be addressed, then you are including me. If you don't like what i write feel free to pass it on by.




superodalisque said:


> i'm curious . people are not necessarily giving you advice personally do you know how to avert your eyes or leave the room while those who want to see or listen or discuss do? or do you stay and make noise and tell them they are not allowed to talk about it together because you don't personally agree?


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

cinnamitch said:


> When you talk about fat people and saying how if they have health issues it HAS to be addressed, then you are including me. If you don't like what i write feel free to pass it on by.



you don't have to be included in this convo and you are free to leave you know. you are not every fat person. every fat person does not feel like you. if you don't feel it should be addressed then don't address it. it's a very simple concept. i don't mind your saying what your opinion is at all but don't pretend as though others don't have the right to discuss a subject at all. that is what i call paternalistic. don't decide for the rest of us who do. make your decision but make it for yourself.


----------



## bigmac (Jul 8, 2013)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> ...
> 
> "Oh god, isn't it sad that some people are so fat they can't move well and need help" is going to do nothing but make people who have mobility issues feel shamed, pitied, and like shit. (Ableism is alive and well here.)



I'm sorry but it is sad when such a young person has mobility issues. The larger young lady is much less mobile than you. Just accepting unnecessary limitations compounds the problem.



BigBeautifulMe said:


> ...
> 
> I am regularly active, I practice balanced eating, and have for quite some time, and my weight is still unchanging. I am mobile to a big extent (as I said, I work 9 to 5, I do my own grocery shopping sans electric cart, travel, etc), but I won't be hiking up mountains or riding rollercoasters any time soon, and yes, that makes me sad if I dwell on it.
> 
> ...



The sad fact is that there are many fat people who are not as mobile as you. You obviously work at staying healthy and mobile. You didn't give up and accept a life of immobility.


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> Whenever someone tells me that I need to lose weight it's like they may as well be saying "How dare you exist in a fat body? This is unacceptable and we must eradicate all fat bodies because we find them disgusting."
> 
> Any time any group is persecuted it's another way of saying that the group doing the persecution doesn't want the other group to exist. Racists don't want brown people to exist. Giving someone a death threat is a pretty clear indication that they don't want you around. Every time an institution like a government agency implements a plan to eradicate a problem they are saying they don't want that problem to exist. And to a lot of people fat people are a problem to be solved, not people who should be allowed to just live their lives.





olwen said:


> Access to healthcare is a separate and involved issue. WLS was just an illustrative example. I'm not making blanket statements about what people should do with their bodies.
> 
> If people are ignorant of issues it's on them to learn the issues. If they don't know the issues exist then they don't know. I think it's more caring to let people just be and not force concern onto them. Some people won't want it. It's not erring on the side of caution to potentially alienate people, which is what this thread has done.



*You bring a valid point- what if the person also knows of the resources-but, decides that it's not for them*. 



cinnamitch said:


> AMEN! When I want advice from some "concerned" people, I will be sure and ask




*Very true- And this is the "flip side" who says that the ladies want any advice. Some folks can be rather blunt about things and they could have possibly responded to the OP with "Mind your own f_ business" * 



bigmac said:


> I'm sorry but it is sad when such a young person has mobility issues. The larger young lady is much less mobile than you. Just accepting unnecessary limitations compounds the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> The sad fact is that there are many fat people who are not as mobile as you. You obviously work at staying healthy and mobile. You didn't give up and accept a life of immobility.



*So.. at the end of the day were you able to take the time to introduce yourself and offer any helpful advice to the young ladies ...*


----------



## bigmac (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> ... I can't make an alcoholic friend get help if he doesn't want it. He knows he has problems and he has to figure it out. ...




Very true, but you also wouldn't take an alcoholic friend out to the bar. Over the years I've seen FAs and enablers encourage people, who obviously had issues with food, to eat even more.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> You can't separate the person from the situation. That person has to decide how they want to handle it. Be all the concerned you want, but forcing concern onto other people doesn't work. I can't make an alcoholic friend get help if he doesn't want it. He knows he has problems and he has to figure it out. Everything I say will go in one ear and out the other. I'm not denying it's a difficult situation to be super sized, but I deal with it and I don't like other people telling me I'm not supposed to be happy at the size I am or that I'm not supposed to be the size I am or any other thing related to what they think my life should be like or passing judgement on how I live my life. My life is my business and no one else's. Do you understand this?



he is not forcing anything on anyone. he did not walk up to those people in the parking lot and start talking about their personal business. but you guys are trying to force the rest of us not to have a discussion that you have the freedom to opt out of. as much as i respect your opinion i did not elect you or any other person here to represent me. appointing yourselves as the arbitrators and the determiners of appropriate discussion between willing fat people and not leaving a discussion you don't have to join on and act as though it is forced on you is paternalistic. gaming threads so items don't get discussed is really pretty nasty and underhanded. why not just keep the control at your own site with like minded people and not try and forcefully apply those rules to people who have not agreed to them?

this is exactly why most of the fat community--especially the most radical units are nearly dead inbred organisms that lack real dynamism that are lucky if they have 3 posts a day. mainly because they don't grow much. they don't allow for free speech or free thought even among actual fat people as though we don't have minds. that is as insulting as the approach the fat hating public has toward us. this is exactly why and how the movement has cannibalized itself.


hopefully this s not one of those places and people won't buckle under the attempt to control convo.


----------



## bigmac (Jul 8, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> ...
> 
> *So.. at the end of the day were you able to take the time to introduce yourself and offer any helpful advice to the young ladies ...*



No, I really do regret mentioning them. However, I'm sticking to my assertion that there is too much minimization of serious issues going on here.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Very true, but you also wouldn't take an alcoholic friend out to the bar. Over the years I've seen FAs and enablers encourage people, who obviously had issues with food, to eat even more.



so have i. i've seen people pressing hard to tempt diabetics with really dangerous levels who are trying so hard to opt out purposefully with items they can't handle simply because they wanted company while they ate. that is nasty mean and irresponsible.


----------



## Deven (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> No, I really do regret mentioning them. However, I'm sticking to my assertion that there is too much minimization of serious issues going on here.



At this point, maybe you could start a new thread, one without you judging some people you didn't know in it? I don't have an issue with your topic, I had an issue with the way you went about it.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> I'm sorry but it is sad when such a young person has mobility issues. The larger young lady is much less mobile than you. Just accepting unnecessary limitations compounds the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> The sad fact is that there are many fat people who are not as mobile as you. You obviously work at staying healthy and mobile. You didn't give up and accept a life of immobility.



she is awesome and that is why her or someone like her has takes, opinions etc.. would be so helpful --because she has absolutely taken responsibility for her own mobility--totally invaluable for people who might be having a hard time. it's cool if she does not want to on a thread like this because there can be a lot of practical reasons not to but for people who can or will i think it would be wonderful.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

Deven said:


> At this point, maybe you could start a new thread, one without you judging some people you didn't know in it? I don't have an issue with your topic, I had an issue with the way you went about it.



i think some really hold grudges too long for proven members who don't word things that are perfect for them and it is a anchor around everyone's neck. they should make a point of something of something they don't like. get over it and move forward. don't destroy an entire idea. they just wear people out with it until the whole thing becomes nonconstructive and no one wants to come here at all to post on any thread and it starts looking like the same dead pages they come here from.


----------



## amidsttundra (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> hopefully this s not one of those places and people won't buckle under the attempt to control convo.



You have done nothing but control the conversation within this thread. You accuse all and sundry of lacking dynamism because we're not open to this "idea" that you haven't exactly nailed down, upon an observation based on assumption by somebody else.

If the topic is health and well-being perhaps some extra dynamism from those who seem determined to patronize and condescend would be more appreciated. I'm not saying it's not a valid topic, I just grossly dislike the assertions and assumptions made throughout and the reason the thread went down that route was because the OP used two strangers who he witnessed in a car park as his sample and others (who weren't even there) are taking the word of the OP that these girls he does not know are suffering from extreme mobility issues. Something that neither I, nor you, can confirm. For all we know they could be entirely fictional.

I'm not saying extreme obesity is not a cause of mobility issues, I'm just saying this topic could have been broached in an entirely different manner.


----------



## Mathias (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i think some really hold grudges too long for proven members who don't word things that are perfect for them and it is a anchor around everyone's neck. they should make a point of something of something they don't like. get over it and move forward. don't destroy an entire idea. they just wear people out with it until the whole thing becomes nonconstructive and no one wants to come here at all to post on any thread and it starts looking like the same dead pages they come here from.



Because despite OP's clever wording it came off as saying "OMG, guys I can't believe how fat these strangers were!" It was rude, condescending, judgmental and offensive.


----------



## ConnieLynn (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> lol. i wondered how long it would take for the "move this thread to where it will not be seen because we disagree" play to be called for.



I did not suggest that this thread be moved. There is nothing of value in this thread for the Health Forum. 

However, since this site does have an active and very helpful Health Forum, it would be a good place to open a positive discussion around mobility issues. In fact, the search for 'mobility' in that forum returns 77 threads. 

While I don't read the Health Forum on a daily basis, I have gone there and found valuable input when I did need information on a specific topic, and I have participated in threads there when I could contribute something helpful. It's also a very supportive forum for those who are experiencing health issues or dealing with being caretakers.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

amidsttundra said:


> You have done nothing but control the conversation within this thread. You accuse all and sundry of lacking dynamism because we're not open to this "idea" that you haven't exactly nailed down, upon an observation based on assumption by somebody else.
> 
> If the topic is health and well-being perhaps some extra dynamism from those who seem determined to patronize and condescend would be more appreciated. I'm not saying it's not a valid topic, I just grossly dislike the assertions and assumptions made throughout and the reason the thread went down that route was because the OP used two strangers who he witnessed in a car park as his sample and others (who weren't even there) are taking the word of the OP that these girls he does not know are suffering from extreme mobility issues. Something that neither I, nor you, can confirm. For all we know they could be entirely fictional.
> 
> I'm not saying extreme obesity is not a cause of mobility issues, I'm just saying this topic could have been broached in an entirely different manner.




as long as he has been posting here i didn't get the feeling that he is lying about the instance he is talking about. i have observed similar myself. it's not uncommon anyway--especially not down south where i am from. and i have definitely seen this at fat events i've gone to. so even if it was made up that would be another pointless discussion since it does exist.

you have discounted the original post ad nauseam. do you have anything constructive to contribute? 


i think like Tank said remaining flexible is very helpful. i use an elastic band on a daily basis for my feet. never thought the flexibility of my feet could be so important. but for balance etc... you really can't beat it. i also use leg weights in bed a lot. with the kind of nerve damage i have i don't particularly care for getting into those high vans Mac mentioned anyway. the idea of falling trying to get into one because of not being able to perfectly feel my entire feet is horrifying. i also like to be careful of using anything that would put undue stress on my knees. does anyone else find a van more difficult? everyone assumes that if you have some difficulties a van is best but i' not so sure.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

BINGO! It was the way it was presented that has really bothered me.



Mathias said:


> Because despite OP's clever wording it came off as saying "OMG, guys I can't believe how fat these strangers were!" It was rude, condescending, judgmental and offensive.


----------



## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Very true, but you also wouldn't take an alcoholic friend out to the bar. Over the years I've seen FAs and enablers encourage people, who obviously had issues with food, to eat even more.



I would have stopped hanging out with him altogether really. 

And if he insisted on coming with me I'd make it clear I'm leaving him the minute he starts acting up and when he gets kicked out of the bar he's in his own. 

If being fed was my kink I would expect my partner to understand what risk aware consensual kink is. You play at your own risk. The only moral issue for me about this whole idea of enabling is whether or not the parties involved proffer consent. No consent, no deal.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

Very well put. Thank you.



amidsttundra said:


> You have done nothing but control the conversation within this thread. You accuse all and sundry of lacking dynamism because we're not open to this "idea" that you haven't exactly nailed down, upon an observation based on assumption by somebody else.
> 
> If the topic is health and well-being perhaps some extra dynamism from those who seem determined to patronize and condescend would be more appreciated. I'm not saying it's not a valid topic, I just grossly dislike the assertions and assumptions made throughout and the reason the thread went down that route was because the OP used two strangers who he witnessed in a car park as his sample and others (who weren't even there) are taking the word of the OP that these girls he does not know are suffering from extreme mobility issues. Something that neither I, nor you, can confirm. For all we know they could be entirely fictional.
> 
> I'm not saying extreme obesity is not a cause of mobility issues, I'm just saying this topic could have been broached in an entirely different manner.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

ConnieLynn said:


> I did not suggest that this thread be moved. There is nothing of value in this thread for the Health Forum.
> 
> However, since this site does have an active and very helpful Health Forum, it would be a good place to open a positive discussion around mobility issues. In fact, the search for 'mobility' in that forum returns 77 threads.
> 
> While I don't read the Health Forum on a daily basis, I have gone there and found valuable input when I did need information on a specific topic, and I have participated in threads there when I could contribute something helpful. It's also a very supportive forum for those who are experiencing health issues or dealing with being caretakers.



lots of people never go there to see the posts . i think that was the point of it being here where more people would think about it.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> lots of people never go there to see the posts . i think that was the point of it being here where more people would think about it.



What people?


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

Mathias said:


> Because despite OP's clever wording it came off as saying "OMG, guys I can't believe how fat these strangers were!" It was rude, condescending, judgmental and offensive.



he has admitted as much. apologized. now what?


----------



## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

Really fat people and those who are concerned about them of course



olwen said:


> What people?


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> What people?



people who come to the forums of course. it's always best to post things up front if you really want people know that they are here.


----------



## Mathias (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> he has admitted as much. apologized. now what?



He's still making arrogant generalizations.


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

Mathias said:


> He's still making arrogant generalizations.



y'all are stuck in purgatory. call Dante.

you're never going to change minds or do anything constructive gaming people like this-- which is also arrogant. i hope you know. just creating more and more resentment and animus the movement does not need. its okay if fat folk suffer as long as some people get their way. no wonder hardly anyone is in attendance at anything they do. people know when you actually care about them and when you don't.


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> people who come to the forums of course. it's always best to post things up front if you really want people know that they are here.



Sorry but your approach needs work.


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## ScreamingChicken (Jul 8, 2013)

Six pages of ass reaming is just overkill. *smh*


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## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

ScreamingChicken said:


> Six pages of ass reaming is just overkill. *smh*



I blame myself for chiming in. Proof that I must be a true masochist. LOL


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

ScreamingChicken said:


> Six pages of ass reaming is just overkill. *smh*



most definitely. exactly why fat acceptance is so seriously on the rocks because personal control fiefdoms and politics are still more important than the people who are supposed to face their problems in a "community" all alone with no help or care and somehow that is okay? it is the oddest most emotionally damaged hate filled thing i've ever heard. i think there are a lot of people who have no idea what a community looks like. or what the purpose of one is.


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## Mathias (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> y'all are stuck in purgatory. call Dante.
> 
> you're never going to change minds or do anything constructive gaming people like this-- which is also arrogant. i hope you know. just creating more and more resentment and animus the movement does not need. its okay if fat folk suffer as long as some people get their way. no wonder hardly anyone is in attendance at anything they do. people know when you actually care about them and when you don't.



Pffffft. Sorry Cinna. I had to do it.


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## cinnamitch (Jul 8, 2013)

HEY!, I use the pffts around here. You can use the hisssssss.



Mathias said:


> Pffffft. Sorry Cinna. I had to do it.


----------



## Dromond (Jul 8, 2013)

Sometimes, "pfft" is the only possible response.


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 8, 2013)

amidsttundra said:


> You have done nothing but control the conversation within this thread. You accuse all and sundry of lacking dynamism because we're not open to this "idea" that you haven't exactly nailed down, upon an observation based on assumption by somebody else.
> 
> If the topic is health and well-being perhaps some extra dynamism from those who seem determined to patronize and condescend would be more appreciated. I'm not saying it's not a valid topic, I just grossly dislike the assertions and assumptions made throughout and the reason the thread went down that route was because the OP used two strangers who he witnessed in a car park as his sample and others (who weren't even there) are taking the word of the OP that these girls he does not know are suffering from extreme mobility issues. Something that neither I, nor you, can confirm. For all we know they could be entirely fictional.
> 
> I'm not saying extreme obesity is not a cause of mobility issues, I'm just saying this topic could have been broached in an entirely different manner.



*
It's almost like the concept of "Muscular Christianity" ... you automatically become a better human being of "character" because you advocate physical fitness
*



superodalisque said:


> y'all are stuck in purgatory. call Dante.
> 
> you're never going to change minds or do anything constructive gaming people like this-- which is also arrogant. i hope you know. just creating more and more resentment and animus the movement does not need. its okay if fat folk suffer as long as some people get their way. no wonder hardly anyone is in attendance at anything they do. people know when you actually care about them and when you don't.



_*Well... the OP himself admitted that he didn't do anything ... just had an observation and this thread is all about people "freely" expressing their opinion-nothing as "grand" as building resentment or purgatories or infernos.... *_


----------



## EvilPrincess (Jul 8, 2013)

I read this thread, it was painful to read, and to those who refuse to use capitalization or punctuation, ouch you made it worse. I want to add a voice from a moderator to make sure everyone knows that we are reading and watching. 

This thread is a difficult one, it is about fat in general, unfortunately the message that comes across is- *We accept you and your fat as long as you aren't too fat. And please make sure that your fat does not make it uncomfortable for me to have to watch you struggle through a world that was not made for your and your fatness.* There are many good comments and points and counter-points. There is also a lot of qualified statements about acceptance. Acceptance is acceptance for all colors of the rainbow and all weights on the scale. Science can't pinpoint the exact way to make someone loose weight, or really determine what the perfect weight is. How as lay people are we to make the determination of where on the scale to draw the line and to look at those over that line with concern. 

There are plenty of areas to express concern about extreme weight and health, and yes that would be on the Health Board. The same with WLS, have a story to tell, take it there. 

The comments about this being put in the health forum or some how the "management" will snuff it out are ridiculous. I am now going to let this thread continue on its regularly scheduled path. With one warning, continued posts that objectify a portion of the "fat" community as unacceptable will be infracted as will any posts that are rude and insulting or purposefully off topic. 

Regards,

EP


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## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> *
> It's almost like the concept of "Muscular Christianity" ... you automatically become a better human being of "character" because you advocate physical fitness
> *
> 
> ...




it's not about expressing opinions but about refusing to move forward from a more positive agreed upon place and wheelspinning. nothing was mentioned about the inferno. whole different scenario altogether.


----------



## tonynyc (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> it's not about expressing opinions but about refusing to move forward from a more positive agreed upon place and wheelspinning. nothing was mentioned about the inferno. whole different scenario altogether.



so.. what's _"your version"_ of an agreed upon place.....


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> Sorry but your approach needs work.



evidently it does work. most posts in the health forum make it nowhere near this number.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> so.. what's _"your version"_ of an agreed upon place.....



what is yours? have you read the thread? where would you suggest? what is an acceptable discussion to have about physical issues? would it be how to solve them? how family figures in when someone does need help? being strong AND fat? what would you suggest? its' a good idea to throw it out for suggestions since people have already said what they don't want to talk about. but what would they like to talk about that could actually help somebody out? i've already put in my two cents about things that have helped me.


----------



## olwen (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> evidently it does work. most posts in the health forum make it nowhere near this number.



...Yeah...I don't think it's working the way you think it should.


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 8, 2013)

olwen said:


> ...Yeah...I don't think it's working the way you think it should.



yes. you should be very happy.congratulations. you win you've accomplished a whole lot for people.


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## tonynyc (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> what is yours? have you read the thread? where would you suggest? what is an acceptable discussion to have about physical issues? would it be how to solve them? how family figures in when someone does need help? being strong AND fat? what would you suggest? its' a good idea to throw it out for suggestions since people have already said what they don't want to talk about. but what would they like to talk about that could actually help somebody out? i've already put in my two cents about things that have helped me.



*Yeah.. I read the "entire" thread and here's the condensed version...*

*OP gives his opinion on mobility issues *
*Some have issues as to how it's expressed*
*others chime in *
*end* :happy:

----------------------
*For starters*.. this was never a "suggestions" thread -but, an opinion as to how "Sad" these ladies are AND the Op even admitted that he missed out on the opportunity to chat with them and ask if they needed any help or even could have given a suggested a great organization like NAAFA to check out (if they didn't know about it) -but, this did not happen ... so absent of that.. this is all about opinions.....


----------



## Wild Zero (Jul 8, 2013)

Can the mods just ban the 2013 version of William and be done with it?


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## tonynyc (Jul 8, 2013)

Wild Zero said:


> Can the mods just ban the 2013 version of William and be done with it?



Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## swordchick (Jul 8, 2013)

It does come off as an underhanded way to shame the super sized, disguised as concern. A good way to be helpful is to use your life as an example. What are you doing to remain mobile & healthy?



tonynyc said:


> *Yeah.. I read the thread and here's the condensed version...*
> 
> *OP gives his opinion on mobility issues *
> *Some have issues as to how it's expressed*
> ...


----------



## superodalisque (Jul 9, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> *Yeah.. I read the thread and here's the condensed version...*
> 
> *OP gives his opinion on mobility issues *
> *Some have issues as to how it's expressed*
> ...




that was really a constructive suggestion. but i think a lot of people would have torn you apart as being intrusive and condescending by asking them if they needed help or assuming they didn't already know about NAAFA -- or getting involved period. 

i met a lady with with a pretty tough case of lymphedema out the other day. she was kinda relieved that i knew what it was and didn't treat her like a freak. i was actually able to suggest a program here that gives $4.00 cab rides to people with disabilities -- since she was riding the bus. you could tell it was pretty difficult for her. that is so important here in florida where average days during the summer average 91 degrees with high humidity a heat index of 100. the bus driver hadn't said a word to her about it._ i could strike up a convo because i was also fat and she felt she could trust me_. to me that is the whole point of all of this. what can we do? what do we know . what can we say? can we give someone ideas or the hook up. she had never heard of NAAFA. a lot of people have not. and i gave her the name of my doc who is great. this place should be a great opportunity to give fat people the hook up. just on a larger scale. i'm glad i didn't think it was not my concern or that i should be too embarrassed about us both being fat to help her out. or pretend that everyone should or must be as in the know as i am. i just did for her what i would like for someone to do for me.


----------



## ConnieLynn (Jul 9, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> evidently it does work. most posts in the health forum make it nowhere near this number.



I disagree. This thread has not been at all helpful for someone who might actually want help. The threads in the health forum may not rack up the posts, but they stay on topic and provide useful information.

Frankly, when I hit a thread like this one that runs on for pages and all the posts are exceeding long, I usually abandon the thread (which I'm about to do). I'll read an on topic Health Forum thread from beginning to end.


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## superodalisque (Jul 9, 2013)

"Everyone wants a happy life without difficulties or suffering. We create many of the problems we face. No one intentionally creates problems, but we tend to be slaves to powerful emotions like anger, hatred and attachment that are based on misconceived projections about people and things. We need to find ways of reducing these emotions by eliminating the ignorance that underlies them and applying opposing forces". ~Dalai Lama


----------



## Dromond (Jul 9, 2013)

Folks, the horse is long dead. Please stop beating it.


----------



## Never2fat4me (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Since I've been demonized by so many I'm not feeling like sugar coating this.
> 
> Lets look at this this way: Some situations are happy some sad:
> 
> ...



I think it most unfair how many people have rushed to judge Bigmac. Dimensions, in my mind at least, is about size acceptance, not fat worship. So I am not sure how talking about all aspects of being fat, including some of the negative, is so horrible and makes him worthy of contempt. Not saying I agree with everything he has said, but he has a right to say it and not be beaten up for it.

And just because he made certain assumptions based on what he observed do not make them wrong. Again, cannot say they are right, but not all assumptions are false. (And I find it particularly rich for some members who are very quick to judge others based in their own observations of minute parts of a person's life to criticize Bigmac for making assumptions here.)

As for this piece, I think Bigmac might have worded it better, but in general he is right. Rather than talking about milestones as "happy", I would have posed this as a question "is this what you would want for your child?". And just because you do not want something for your child, it does not mean you are judgmental or would love your child less because of it. 

As the father of two boys, I look forward to all the milestones described as "happy" (in theory, at least - I think I would be sad when they move out, but it still is a positive milestone). But do I wish for them to be 600+ pounds? No. I think this is an interesting question for all of us in the size acceptance movement (particularly those of us who are fat), namely, whether we wish for our children to be fat too. Personally, I want my boys to be accepted regardless of their size, and my love of them is unconditional. But would I be concerned if in their teens they were already struggling to get into a minivan? even if they were currently in perfect health? Of course. I might not be concerned about their health for the present, but what this could do for the long term would make me scared.

Maybe I am making an assumption,  but this is what I got from Bigmac's post, namely, that he has a genuine concern for the well-being of other people and that started him thinking about the issue more generally. And I don't think he should be made the subject of such vicious criticism merely for starting a conversation about it.

- Chris


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## Dromond (Jul 9, 2013)

Never2fat4me said:


> I think it most unfair how many people have rushed to judge Bigmac. Dimensions, in my mind at least, is about size acceptance, not fat worship. So I am not sure how talking about all aspects of being fat, including some of the negative, is so horrible and makes him worthy of contempt. Not saying I agree with everything he has said, but he has a right to say it and not be beaten up for it.
> 
> And just because he made certain assumptions based on what he observed do not make them wrong. Again, cannot say they are right, but not all assumptions are false. (And I find it particularly rich for some members who are very quick to judge others based in their own observations of minute parts of a person's life to criticize Bigmac for making assumptions here.)
> 
> ...



Considering your screen name, this post is very ironic.


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## Mishty (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm not gonna quote anyone,but if you cringe at teenage girls for being too fat then might I suggest you get the fuck off a SIZE ACCEPTANCE forum? Yeah? Accepting size means asking no questions and passing no judgment. No one owes you an explanation or asked for your pity/concern/false care/disgust. Don't you think enough of society cringes? This is one of the few places super sized people aren't mocked and made to feel less for their size,god forbid a young person read this shit and think less of themselves,when in reality,YOU'RE the immoral hypocrite for even allowing your bigoted fingers to type this pile of shite in the first place.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

olwen said:


> *I would have stopped hanging out with him altogether really. *
> 
> And if he insisted on coming with me I'd make it clear I'm leaving him the minute he starts acting up and when he gets kicked out of the bar he's in his own.
> 
> If being fed was my kink I would expect my partner to understand what risk aware consensual kink is. *You play at your own risk.* The only moral issue for me about this whole idea of enabling is whether or not the parties involved proffer consent. No consent, no deal.



And I'm the one people are calling an ass? If a friend has a problem with alcohol hang out where alcohol isn't a temptation. Likewise if a friend has food issues don't suggest the buffet. However, you're not being much of a friend of you stop hanging out altogether. 

Regarding playing at your own risk -- its not always that simple. Its all to easy to take advantage of someone's food issues for personal gratification.

Indeed FAs have gotten a bad reputation with the general public because of the way they exploit people with food issues. When I was first dating my wife one of her friends (the only one with experience with the FA/BBW community) went to great lengths to warn her regarding the games FAs play.


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## olwen (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> And I'm the one people are calling an ass? If a friend has a problem with alcohol hang out where alcohol isn't a temptation. Likewise if a friend has food issues don't suggest the buffet. However, you're not being much of a friend of you stop hanging out altogether.
> 
> Regarding playing at your own risk -- its not always that simple. Its all to easy to take advantage of someone's food issues for personal gratification.
> 
> Indeed FAs have gotten a bad reputation with the general public because of the way they exploit people with food issues. When I was first dating my wife one of her friends (the only one with experience with the FA/BBW community) went to great lengths to warn her regarding the games FAs play.



He knew he had a problem and I had talked to him about it extensively for years. Everyone talked to him about it. He burned thru girlfriends who would come to me crying about all the shit he put them thru and all our other friends bailed on him. I stuck with him when everyone else was gone because I thought I could get thru to him, which didn't work at all. His feeling about it was that he could make his own decisions about his addiction and he noted my concern but said it wasn't my life and he was right about that. If he wanted to go to a bar even if I didn't he was still going to go. Period. At least if I went I could tell when he was hitting the too drunk point and encourage him to leave before he got thrown out or had the cops called on him. If I put him in a cab, I'd discover later that he got out at another bar. I had to realize it wasn't my job to force him to go to rehab or tell him what to do and I could talk till I was blue in the face and it did in fact go in one ear and out the other. So I had to leave him to himself and realize that I wasn't his babysitter. And leave his life if his addiction got out of control, which it did so I did because I was fed up. So really if you haven't had to deal with this with other people then you really have no idea what it's like. You deal with it and then get back to me about how you handled things. 

If people have food addictions and they hide it what are other people supposed to do. It takes a while to figure those things out. The person with the addiction has to make the choice to remove those people from their lives and get a handle on things. Addiction is not cut and dry. And addicts make it a point to be around people who share their addiction. Surely they are aware of what's going on and they ignore it anyway because they are addicted. And if they really are too naive to notice then that's on them. 

And if people are consenting to food play, then yes, it really is as simple as knowing the risks and playing anyway. That's what consent is. Learning how to avoid the abusers in the first place. If the issue is that there isn't any consent then yes, that is a serious problem, and if it really is a problem then it's up to the gaining community to be proactive and takes steps to educate people. I can't go in there and start barking orders at people or berating them for doing things in a way I don't like. I wouldn't want someone who isn't into what I'm into telling me how they think I should live my kink when they don't know a damn thing about it.

If you really feel the abuse is a problem then do something constructive and organize people. It's not enough to just call out abusers. That's another set of issues in itself. Start a group and educate members about the things abusers do and make sure people who enter that scene get that education before they start hooking up with people. If all you all do is just complain without doing something constructive and effective you'll never get anywhere. And really after all the time I've spent away from these boards and I come back, the same arguments are cropping up then nothing has been done. So make something happen if you are that concerned about it.


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## swordchick (Jul 9, 2013)

Unfortunately, this is too common. These type of people need more help than those 2 women. They despise what they desire.



Dromond said:


> Considering your screen name, this post is very ironic.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

swordchick said:


> Unfortunately, this is too common. These type of people need more help than those 2 women. They despise what they desire.



Its a little more complicated than that. A person can admire the beauty of a SSBBW and at the same time acknowledge that there are negatives associated with being a SSBBW.

Interestingly guys who fall in love with SSBBWs often find themselves supporting their partners efforts to exercise and yes even lose weight. They don't do this because they despise their partner but because they love them and support their efforts.

IMHO my wife was a smoking hot SSBBW. However, I would have had to be a truly cold and shallow guy not to notice that her weight and the limitations thereof were making her very unhappy. The fact that I've supported her efforts to loose weight doesn't mean I despised her as a SSBBW. 

Indeed it could be argued that its guys who encourage SSBBW to eat more and more who are the ones who despise what they desire. Or at least are more interested with their own gratification than they are with their partners welfare.


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## swordchick (Jul 9, 2013)

I was directing my comment to the ones who want really fat people who are gaining but then they shame them for being too fat. It isn't right.

I've met you & your wife. It is obvious that you two adore each other.



bigmac said:


> Its a little more complicated than that. A person can admire the beauty of a SSBBW and at the same time acknowledge that there are negatives associated with being a SSBBW.
> 
> Interestingly guys who fall in love with SSBBWs often find themselves supporting their partners efforts to exercise and yes even lose weight. They don't do this because they despise their partner but because they love them and support their efforts.
> 
> ...


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## tonynyc (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Its a little more complicated than that. A person can admire the beauty of a SSBBW and at the same time acknowledge that there are negatives associated with being a SSBBW.
> 
> Interestingly guys who fall in love with SSBBWs often find themselves supporting their partners efforts to exercise and yes even lose weight. They don't do this because they despise their partner but because they love them and support their efforts.
> 
> ...



_getting back to the "original" topic... it was a missed "opportunity" to chat with the two SSBBWs that you thought needed help. In retrospect...._

_1. What would you have done differently?

2. What suggestions would you have offered them ?_


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> _getting back to the "original" topic... it was a missed "opportunity" to chat with the two SSBBWs that you thought needed help. In retrospect...._
> 
> _1. What would you have done differently?
> 
> 2. What suggestions would you have offered them ?_



Realistically a middle age guy is not going to approach a couple of twenty something women out of the blue.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

swordchick said:


> I was directing my comment to *the ones who want really fat people who are gaining but then they shame them for being too fat*. It isn't right.
> 
> I've met you & your wife. It is obvious that you two adore each other.



No disagreement about this.

I had the misfortune to observe the type of relationship you described (a friend of my then landlord). This particular POS would shame his supposed girl friend to keep her confidence at rock bottom so she would put up with all his other bad behavior.


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## Tina (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> How is it prejudice to what these girls to have the best possible shot at an independent life?



The problem is that you came to a forum with many fat people in it in order to use some false concern in order to say things that would offend many of the people here. You've done this numerous times in the past, in a variety of ways. Why still pretend to be surprised and clueless? That train has left the station.


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## Mathias (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Realistically a middle age guy is not going to approach a couple of twenty something women out of the blue.



Because, realistically it's just easier for you to fat shame them behind the safety of your computer screen.


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## Jim Miller (Jul 9, 2013)

Between the events of this thread and my recollection that bigmac also flatly denies the existence of human trafficking--one of the biggest scourges in the world today--I put him on my ban list.

With his posts blocked out, along with those of trolls like superoda and veggies, this thread is actually pretty heartening to read, with many different people coming out to embrace the basic fundamental of fat acceptance.

I suggest that those of us who want this site to continue to be devoted to embracing, affirming, respecting, upholding, accepting, and empowering fat people, and, yes, admiring them...I suggest that we all simply block the trolls from letting their posts appear in our sessions and ignore their hatred and judgmental attitudes. This site is probably too far gone to save, but I'd sure like to be wrong about that.


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## Never2fat4me (Jul 9, 2013)

swordchick said:


> I was directing my comment to the ones who want really fat people who are gaining but then they shame them for being too fat. It isn't right.
> 
> I've met you & your wife. It is obvious that you two adore each other.



Given that this was directed at my post, I would ask how you know this is true about me? Oh yes, you have direct insight into all my thoughts based on a single post that allows you to know what I actually meant to say even though I didn't say anything like that - silly me! (That is one thing I have found rather interesting in this thread, namely, how quickly many people who criticize Bigmac for making assumptions have leaped to unsubstantiated conclusions themselves. That, and that many if not most of these have been pretty quick to descend into _ad hominem_ attacks rather than addressing the substance of what Bigmac and others have said.)

Actually, Bigmac got it exactly right. I have posted previously about the dilemma that many of us FA's face when we love very large SSBBWs who are at a weight that is unlikely to be healthy for them over the long term. I have never shamed an SSBBW for her size - and I would never do so - nor have I ever suggested to any that she should lose weight. And I would indeed be proud to have a wife who was a 600 lb SSBBW who had problems getting into a minivan. But it wouldn't stop me either from being concerned that being that size could mean great discomfort for her and eventually lead to a premature departure from this world. And I don't think that admitting I have this concern about the health of the woman whom I love niggling at me in the back of my mind makes me a closet fat-hater (but then again, it seems that some here know me better than I know myself, so perhaps I am just deluding myself and that I actually want a woman to both get fatter and lose weight). 

On that note, I would be interested in knowing how many SSBBWs and SSBHM and their admirers who have taken offense at Bigmac's and others' posts (including mine) really want their children to be supersized when they grow. By which I mean something far more than just loving/supporting them regardless of size; would be more like in my case I want my sons to be happy, healthy men of good character who love God, live by the golden rule and treat everyone with compassion. My guess would be that none would and that they don't care what size their kids are. But this means that I am once again leaping to conclusions... 

- Chris


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## swordchick (Jul 9, 2013)

A single post? You have over 1,000 posts so it does give me some insight for person with a name like Never2fat4me. You don't like being judged for your gaining fantasies, right? Maybe you think about how super sized people feel.

I am not sure why people keep saying that those young ladies were getting in a minivan. He said a GMC van. Those vans are huge & not exactly easy to get to into.



Never2fat4me said:


> Given that this was directed at my post, I would ask how you know this is true about me? Oh yes, you have direct insight into all my thoughts based on a single post that allows you to know what I actually meant to say even though I didn't say anything like that - silly me! (That is one thing I have found rather interesting in this thread, namely, how quickly many people who criticize Bigmac for making assumptions have leaped to unsubstantiated conclusions themselves. That, and that many if not most of these have been pretty quick to descend into _ad hominem_ attacks rather than addressing the substance of what Bigmac and others have said.)
> 
> Actually, Bigmac got it exactly right. I have posted previously about the dilemma that many of us FA's face when we love very large SSBBWs who are at a weight that is unlikely to be healthy for them over the long term. I have never shamed an SSBBW for her size - and I would never do so - nor have I ever suggested to any that she should lose weight. And I would indeed be proud to have a wife who was a 600 lb SSBBW who had problems getting into a minivan. But it wouldn't stop me either from being concerned that being that size could mean great discomfort for her and eventually lead to a premature departure from this world. And I don't think that admitting I have this concern about the health of the woman whom I love niggling at me in the back of my mind makes me a closet fat-hater (but then again, it seems that some here know me better than I know myself, so perhaps I am just deluding myself and that I actually want a woman to both get fatter and lose weight).
> 
> ...


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## Never2fat4me (Jul 9, 2013)

swordchick said:


> A single post? You have over 1,000 posts so it does give me some insight for person with a name like Never2fat4me. You don't like being judged for your gaining fantasies, right? Maybe you think about how super sized people feel.
> 
> I am not sure why people keep saying that those young ladies were getting in a minivan. He said a GMC van. Those vans are huge & not exactly easy to get to into.



I am flattered that you have read all 1000+ of my posts. Or at least that you took the time to see that I made 1000+ posts, which together with my username of course means that all I would have been posting about would be how I wanted women to get fatter. Just as I know that since you have 1100+ posts and your username is Swordchick, you must have found a surprising number of people here to talk about swordplay. (I of course don't actually believe that, but I use this to underscore how silly it is to make assumptions purely on the basis of a username and the number of posts they have made.) 

Far be it from me to dissuade you from thinking the worst of people, or worse to allow facts to interfere with your beliefs, but did you ever think that rather than being about gaining - which I freely admit to enjoying (in fantasy at least, though I honestly cannot remember the last time I posted about that - maybe you can remind me since you know me so well) - that the name perhaps might be about never thinking a woman is too fat for me to love? That actually is how I came up with it, and I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that this was a reasonable sentiment to express on a site like Dimensions.

But all this is a digression from the broader point, namely, that having empathy for people and being concerned for their well-being is not the same thing as shaming people and judging them based on size. I can understand how experience has led many to their first reaction to any concern related to size being that it is veiled criticism, but I also hope that the size acceptance community can move beyond that and be sufficiently tolerant to recognize the difference between the false concern of those who hate fat people and that of FA's who genuinely are concerned about someone who's mobility may have become impaired due to their size.

- Chris


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## swordchick (Jul 9, 2013)

Don't be flattered. I haven't read all of your posts. You have the right to believe what you want. But this place is supposed to be a safe place for fat people, not a place to shame fat people. You think it is concern but it is not. 

By the way, I don't care what people think of me. They can assume that I shove swords in my anus. If I did, I would admit to it.



Never2fat4me said:


> I am flattered that you have read all 1000+ of my posts. Or at least that you took the time to see that I made 1000+ posts, which together with my username of course means that all I would have been posting about would be how I wanted women to get fatter. Just as I know that since you have 1100+ posts and your username is Swordchick, you must have found a surprising number of people here to talk about swordplay. (I of course don't actually believe that, but I use this to underscore how silly it is to make assumptions purely on the basis of a username and the number of posts they have made.)
> 
> Far be it from me to dissuade you from thinking the worst of people, or worse to allow facts to interfere with your beliefs, but did you ever think that rather than being about gaining - which I freely admit to enjoying (in fantasy at least, though I honestly cannot remember the last time I posted about that - maybe you can remind me since you know me so well) - that the name perhaps might be about never thinking a woman is too fat for me to love? That actually is how I came up with it, and I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that this was a reasonable sentiment to express on a site like Dimensions.
> 
> ...


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## Saoirse (Jul 9, 2013)

Girl he just owned you. Hows that sword feel?


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

Tina said:


> The problem is that you came to a forum with many fat people in it in order to use some false concern in order to say things that would offend many of the people here. You've done this numerous times in the past, in a variety of ways. Why still pretend to be surprised and clueless? That train has left the station.




I knew some people would get pissed. However, the amount of venom is a bit surprising. That said, I've actually got quite a bit of rep from this post, as well as supportive private messages, so not everyone disagrees with me.


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## cinnamitch (Jul 9, 2013)

That and a dollar will buy you a coke.



bigmac said:


> I knew some people would get pissed. However, the amount of venom is a bit surprising. That said, I've actually got quite a bit of rep from this post, as well as supportive private messages, so not everyone disagrees with me.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

Never2fat4me said:


> ... *having empathy for people and being concerned for their well-being is not the same thing as shaming people and judging them based on size. * I can understand how experience has led many to their first reaction to any concern related to size being that it is veiled criticism, but I also hope that the size acceptance community can move beyond that and be sufficiently tolerant to recognize the difference between the false concern of those who hate fat people and that of FA's who genuinely are concerned about someone who's mobility may have become impaired due to their size.
> 
> - Chris



Thank you, YES!


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## Blackjack (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> I knew some people would get pissed. However, the amount of venom is a bit surprising. That said, I've actually got quite a bit of rep from this post, as well as supportive private messages, so not everyone disagrees with me.



Ah yes, the "people secretly agree with me" defense.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

Mishty said:


> I'm not gonna quote anyone,but if you cringe at teenage girls for being too fat then might I suggest you get the fuck off a SIZE ACCEPTANCE forum? Yeah? Accepting size means asking no questions and passing no judgment. No one owes you an explanation or asked for your pity/concern/false care/disgust. Don't you think enough of society cringes? This is one of the few places super sized people aren't mocked and made to feel less for their size,god forbid a young person read this shit and think less of themselves,when in reality,*YOU'RE the immoral hypocrite for even allowing your bigoted fingers to type this pile of shite in the first place.*



Talk about being judgmental!

Also, who said anything about cringing at the sight of fat people -- what made me cringe were some of the response posts.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

Blackjack said:


> Ah yes, the "people secretly agree with me" defense.



I don't blame them for staying in the shadows given the responses posted. Also, this thread has generated more views and more responses than pretty much any other recent thread. The issues raised herein need to be talked about.


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## amidsttundra (Jul 9, 2013)

bigmac said:


> The issues raised herein need to be talked about.



If it were done in a non-patronizing, non-babying way it probably could have been done so. But instead, people have disregarded those who have said that the approach you and others have adopted in this post came across as supercilious and there has been no moderation of tact since.

If anything you have gone on the offensive to continually assert that everybody is being wilfully blind when they haven't agreed with the manner in which you have broached this topic or the assumptions and faux concern herein.

I cannot understand why you felt the OP would make for anything short of divisive a starting off point for issues regarding mobility and well being. Why make an example of people instead of simply starting a thread regarding health, well being and mobility?

You did it to garner a reaction, you have achieved that. You have your rep and you've created a hot button thread. As far as I'm concerned this thread has done - and was never meant to do - shit.


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## ScreamingChicken (Jul 9, 2013)

Let me come out of the shadows then and agree with bigmac's sentiments to an extent, if not his execution.

I've never been fully comfortable with the phrase "Healthy at Every Size". I don't think you can be healthy at EVERY size. However, I do strongly believe that you can be healthy at MANY sizes. IMO, the human body has a range in which it can safely operate; a minimum and a maximum weight. Now, this range varies from person to person with their own unique genetics, lifestyles, and other variables. I have seen three different women that I loved during my 39 years on this planet had their health compromised, in part, by their weight. 

My ex wife was 235 and diabetic. It took a combination of weight loss, healthier eating, and medication to get her diabetes regulated to the point where she no longer requires medication.

My ex GF from 20 years ago was 330 and diabetic. She later went the WLS route because glucophage wasn't touching it. She lost well over 100 lbs and got the diabetes under control.

My ex fiance at over 400 was taken to the ER showing all the classics signs of a heart attack. Thankfully, it wasn't but she is constantly short of breath and legs are almost always swollen. She has difficulty walking for periods of time.The doctor says her BP and cholesterol are fine and her lungs are clear but both agree it is simply a case of weighing more than what HER body can handle.

Three different women; three different upper limits to their safety range. I cannot presume, nor do I feel anyone else can, what a person 's upper limit is merely by looking at them or observing them from a distance for a few moments. It's just not that easy. HOWEVER, there is an upper limit; to say that there isn't one is not being realistic.

As a sidenote, I have noticed many fat people immediately point to how great their labs (cholesterol, blood sugar) and BP are and I am truly happy for them. That's not a small feat for anyone these days. However, there is no lab work for pain. Only you can admit if you are in pain or not. There is no unbiased lab test to point to for pain and say "look I am pain free, don't judge me."

I speak not only as an FA who realize it's not easy to live as BBW in this world but also as 350 lb man who has moderatly high BP and has been experiencing chronic knee pain the past year or so. Perhaps I may finally be experiencing MY upper limit.


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## bigmac (Jul 9, 2013)

ScreamingChicken said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lab results tend to be great until they're not. My labs were great for 48 years -- now not so great. My knees (a usual starting place for weight related joint issues) are fine so far -- but I've recently reactivated an old back injury (I had a large tree cut down on me back in 1989). I'm very aware that if I want more healthy active years I'm going to have to loose at least 50 pounds.


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## EvilPrincess (Jul 9, 2013)

Your friendly Moderator has been riding in the back seat for this thread reading posts, letting people vent, some going a little too far, some just at the line, my question is are we done? I have some suggestions.....

If you want to talk about health concerns and fat, try the health board. You will reach your target audience. 

If you are interested in a non promoting view of WLS try the WLS board.

General discussion about fat and fat related topics go on the Main Board. 

Continued discussion of this topic is not really about fat any more, it is about how things were worded and about perceptions. Not about fat, not really on topic, this thread seems to have run its course. 

Please enjoy the rest of your evening (morning to those on the other side of the world). 
FIN​


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