# fetishes and the FA



## user 29363 (Nov 18, 2014)

Ever since I was young I have been drawn to fat women. I never understood it ive never been able to explain it and ive never wanted to have it any other way. When I think back though I feel as if one of my fetishes may have influenced my interest in larger women. 

I know there are quite a few fetishes that are attached to fat admirations that include but are not limited to: Feederism, giantess, smothering, belly fetish, and vore. Also fat admiration can and often does exist independent of any of these fetishes. But in my case I feel as if the fetish maybe the cause of my admiration.

I am really into belly fetish and vore and they with my fat admiration seem to work together in some strange impossible sexual fantasy. So do you think that your fetish may have inspired your fat admiration or that your love of fat men or women exist independently?


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## devinprater (Jan 1, 2015)

I think my fetishes have effected my attractions. I have always loved big bellies. I've also recently learned that I like taller, slobbish ssbbws. I don't need the tallness and slobbishness to be satisfied, but fatness and laziness definitely get me going.


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## Dromond (Jan 1, 2015)

Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.


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## devinprater (Jan 1, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.


 oh, thanks for that.


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## J_Underscore (Jan 3, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.



Definitely, I don't have a fetish for big comfy cuddles, that's part of my preference for big women. Once the passion of the fetish subsides it's all about being together


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## fuelingfire (Jan 3, 2015)

I wrestle with how I categorize my own fat admiration. So many people here say it is a preference, maybe it is and I just see it differently. To me a nerdy brunette with glasses is my strongest preference in a woman. Missing any of that is not a deal breaker in a partner. 

I would not start a relationship with a women who is not a BBW or SSBBW, unless she was the most interesting woman in the world (probably related to the Dos Equis man). Maybe its just so strong of a preference for me that I dont see it as a preference. Conversely, if I was in love with a BBW who wanted to lose weight for health reasons I would 100% support her and it would not be a threat to the relationship. 

I wrestle with it, but at the end of the day it doesnt matter how I categorize it.


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## musicman (Jan 3, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I wrestle with how I categorize my own fat admiration. So many people here say it is a preference, maybe it is and I just see it differently. To me a nerdy brunette with glasses is my strongest preference in a woman. Missing any of that is not a deal breaker in a partner.
> 
> I would not start a relationship with a women who is not a BBW or SSBBW, unless she was the most interesting woman in the world (probably related to the Dos Equis man). Maybe its just so strong of a preference for me that I dont see it as a preference. Conversely, if I was in love with a BBW who wanted to lose weight for health reasons I would 100% support her and it would not be a threat to the relationship.
> 
> I wrestle with it, but at the end of the day it doesnt matter how I categorize it.



Disregarding the terminology, you have a good attitude. There is nothing wrong with using weight as a starting point for potential relationships. You have to start somewhere. Once you get to know a person, things can change. 

Now, regarding the terminology: I know there are clinical scientific definitions of the word "fetish", but too often, "fetish" is simply a word used to belittle other people's sexual preferences. We are better off not worrying about it. (To me, this is exactly like the words "religion" and "cult"; if someone doesn't like your religion, it's a cult.)


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## CastingPearls (Jan 3, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.


Thank you, Dromond.


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## bmwm2001 (Jan 9, 2015)

Preference implies there is a choice in the matter and for me there really isn't. Im not at all attracted to thin women. Ive tried trying to see past it and enjoy them for being who they are, but literally NOTHING sexual was going on. I tried twice and ended up finishing them off and feeling shallow about myself.

I admire and envy those who have seen all women sexualy and CHOSE bbw (or BHM for that matter as my girlfriend is one of them).

I am only attracted to fat as a fetish and its related sub-fetishes like weight gain, lazy lifestyle, immobility and loss of control (eating wise, toilet accidents etc) and i enjoy enjoying them, but sometimes i do think im missing exploring other things because they are not 'fat' related. 

Dan x


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## bigmac (Jan 10, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.



A distinction without difference.


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## fuelingfire (Jan 10, 2015)

bigmac said:


> A distinction without difference.


 
That is probably the most accurate way for me to view it.


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## Dromond (Jan 10, 2015)

bigmac said:


> A distinction without difference.



Obviously I don't agree.


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## CleverBomb (Jan 11, 2015)

bigmac said:


> A distinction without difference.


Not necessarily, though at extremes the two converge -- and this community is in large part an outlier that's centered closer to that convergence area than not.


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## fuelingfire (Jan 11, 2015)

I am not trying to rub anyone the wrong way, but to engage in conversation. I am not trying to tell anyone else how they tick.What I am writing about is just about my attraction to fat women, no side fetishes.


It is an argument over definitions (to me). Are all FAs the same?Dimensions has shown me that there are many people who are FAs like me.It has also shown me that in this small community, there is a wide variety of feelings/beliefs on the same topics.
I personally do not see my fat admiration as a choice.As a pre-teen and teen *I wanted so badly to be attracted to thin girls.* To fit in. I thought something was seriously wrong with me.My first few girlfriends were all thin and athletic.I was sure if I experience dating thin girls I would realize I like them.But anytime I would see a BBW, they would instantly consume my attention, to the point I knew there was no point in lying to myself.


Though I am not gay, to me explaining what gay people go through (before coming out) is the *perfect analogy* to what I went through.I have read other people saying that too, but not often and not on Dims (I think).I am saying that if a popular thin super model was standing naked in front of me, she would have to do *a lot* of overtly sexual things to start getting me turned on.On the other hand, take the last random BBW you saw in public, put her in non-sexual clothing, and I would instantly be getting turned on.To me being with a thin woman, would be me *pretending*… or me being unfair to the thin woman because I would always wishing she was something she was not.Like a gay person dating a straight person.

I am guessing to most FAs it is a choice.I can never tell you a point in my life where I felt I was free to make the choice.The only way I would refer to it as a preference is if I was sugarcoating explaining it to a person, who I would be worried would freak-out about it.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 11, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.





bigmac said:


> A distinction without difference.



I think you're both right, to a degree. It's a complicated issue, but I see fat appreciation as a continuum: whether it is a matter of preference or a fetish depends on how much emotional energy you have invested in it. For example, imagine you have moved (for whatever reason) to a city in which all the women are slender*. If you date the available women and find yourself in a satisfying relationship with one of them, your fat appreciation is a preference. If you cannot bring yourself to date anyone because none of the women is fat enough for you, I would call that a fetish.


*Boston in the 1970's was like that. I dated several slender women...and then I met a BBW visiting from California, packed my bags, and followed her to LA.


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## musicman (Jan 11, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I personally do not see my fat admiration as a choice.As a pre-teen and teen *I wanted so badly to be attracted to thin girls.* To fit in. I thought something was seriously wrong with me.My first few girlfriends were all thin and athletic.I was sure if I experience dating thin girls I would realize I like them.But anytime I would see a BBW, they would instantly consume my attention, to the point I knew there was no point in lying to myself.
> 
> Though I am not gay, to me explaining what gay people go through (before coming out) is the *perfect analogy* to what I went through.I have read other people saying that too, but not often and not on Dims (I think).I am saying that if a popular thin super model was standing naked in front of me, she would have to do *a lot* of overtly sexual things to start getting me turned on.On the other hand, take the last random BBW you saw in public, put her in non-sexual clothing, and I would instantly be getting turned on.To me being with a thin woman, would be me *pretending* or me being unfair to the thin woman because I would always wishing she was something she was not.Like a gay person dating a straight person.
> 
> I am guessing to most FAs it is a choice.I can never tell you a point in my life where I felt I was free to make the choice.The only way I would refer to it as a preference is if I was sugarcoating explaining it to a person, who I would be worried would freak-out about it.




I am guessing you don't know many FAs. Why do you think most FAs have a choice? Nearly all of the FAs I've met say the opposite. They tell me they were either born this way, or developed their preference at an early age. They are not aroused by thin women any more than you are. Many of them wished they could date thin women and "fit in", exactly as you described.

I agree with your analogy to someone being gay. But that is described simply as a "sexual preference", so why can't being an FA also be a sexual preference? I think it is. The problem with the word "fetish" is that it has a lot of unnecessary and negative psychological baggage that doesn't apply to most FAs. I don't understand why someone would want to adopt an inapplicable negative word (unless perhaps they want to punish themselves with guilt, or present some sort of "bad boy" image to the world).


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## Jon Blaze (Jan 11, 2015)

Well it's more effective in contemporary terms to describe whether you are straight, gay, or bisexual as a sexual _orientation_ rather than being a preference. The latter implies you have some degree of control over it, and I'm sure most of us don't agree with that. Being an FA is a conundrum though, because I think some of us believe we can influence our preferences. Not manually control, but influence. I know I can based on my actions. I feel like being an FA is even more complicated because there are so many factors that go into it. Size, shape, features, acceptance level, and more can have an effect on who we are attracted to. Those factors can affect my preferences, but they don't change my orientation.

Even though I identify as bisizual, I still think I would be more willing to date a thin woman even if my FA tendencies were more pronounced, than my peers are willing to date even a chubby woman. That's my biggest argument against a difference in designation between those who are attracted to thin partners, and those who aren't.


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## bigmac (Jan 11, 2015)

Jon Blaze said:


> Well it's more effective in contemporary terms to describe whether you are straight, gay, or bisexual as a sexual _orientation_ rather than being a preference. The latter implies you have some degree of control over it, and I'm sure most of us don't agree with that. Being an FA is a conundrum though, because I think some of us believe we can influence our preferences. Not manually control, but influence. I know I can based on my actions. I feel like being an FA is even more complicated because there are so many factors that go into it. Size, shape, features, acceptance level, and more can have a effect on who we are attracted to. Those factors can affect my preferences, but they don't change my orientation.
> 
> Even though I identify as bisizual, I still think I would be more willing to date a thin woman even if my FA tendencies were more pronounced, than my peers are willing to date even a chubby woman. That's my biggest argument against a difference in designation between those who are attracted to thin partners, and those who aren't.




Yes, IMHO one part of a person's brain can override another. Example (that doesn't involve size): when I was about 21 I invited a girl I'd met back to my apartment. After it became clear that we'd be hooking up I asked her about birth control -- she said don't worry I can't have kids. Some deep primitive part of my brain switched off my libido. The last thing my conscious brain wanted was to have a baby with this girl so this should have been good news. However, the more primal part of my brain was saying don't waste your time with this one. After a few minutes my conscious brain prevailed and the evening continued as planned.

My point is that -- at least to some extent -- it is possible to override deep seated preferences.

With regard to weight -- I've enjoyed having sex with very large women -- however, when it came to longer term relationships my primal brain and conscious brain reached a compromise -- mostly mid-sized BBWs.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 11, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Yes, IMHO one part of a person's brain can override another.



If it couldn't, AA would never have gotten off the ground. Thanks for making the point.


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## loopytheone (Jan 12, 2015)

I have to say that for me personally, preference isn't really the right word for it. I have a preference for dark hair and for shorter people but one of the most attractive and gorgeous person I have ever met was over six foot with platinum blond hair. And I don't feel like I am 'missing out' on anything by being with someone tall or blond etc. But if I was going out with somebody skinny? Well, yes, I would feel that I was missing out to a certain degree because I'd always be wanting to touch and feel and be with a chubbier person. I can be attracted to skinny people with awesome personalities but long term I'm not sure it would work out because I'd always be looking longingly at bigger people. 

In conclusion, I wouldn't say that preference or fetish are really the right words to use for me personally as neither really explain that, you know?


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## Tad (Jan 12, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.



Right, that would be a fat fetish..... but "FA" is used generally enough, with little enough definition, that I think people will take whatever interest in fat they have and say "Ah, at last--I have a term for what I like!" Some of those people may have a fat fetish, but call it fat appreciation.... and people sometimes expect that others who used the same label feel the same way.

It is a bit like the word shy. Some people who call themselves shy are simply quiet introverts, not apt to push themselves into a busy conversation, while others who may use that term have near crippling social anxiety, and various things between and around those terms. (maybe this happens less than it used to, as anxiety and social anxiety become terms in more common use, but I think this is at least somewhat still the case). Shy just became the catch-all description for anyone who was backwards about being forward. 

So there is a split between what the term should mean, and how people actually use it. Welcome to the English language!




loopytheone said:


> I have to say that for me personally, preference isn't really the right word for it. I have a preference for dark hair and for shorter people but one of the most attractive and gorgeous person I have ever met was over six foot with platinum blond hair. And I don't feel like I am 'missing out' on anything by being with someone tall or blond etc. But if I was going out with somebody skinny? Well, yes, I would feel that I was missing out to a certain degree because I'd always be wanting to touch and feel and be with a chubbier person. I can be attracted to skinny people with awesome personalities but long term I'm not sure it would work out because I'd always be looking longingly at bigger people.
> 
> In conclusion, I wouldn't say that preference or fetish are really the right words to use for me personally as neither really explain that, you know?



Loopy, Im familiar with that sort of experience myself. In trying to describe my feelings, years ago, I termed it that I have a number of hot-buttons. That is, features (physical, mental, emotional) that tended to grab and hold my interest. The more of those hot-buttons someone hits, the more Im apt to be interested in them (granted, some cause me to respond more strongly than others). 

Some of those hot-buttons have a tendency to cluster together sometimes, but that doesnt mean that they are only found together, and it doesnt mean that any particular hot-button was ever necessary to what I liked, just that someone hit enough of them over-all. Also, sometimes frequent clusters led me to think one thing about what I liked, that I later realized was not the case. I.E. in younger days I thought I preferred short women. Eventually I realized that actually I liked a number of things that in teenagers, seemed to have been more common amongst the shorter women of my acquaintance: higher hip to height ratio, good posture, and a sassy attitude (Im not saying those are universal, just that in my formative years I found those clustered in a lot of the shorter girls that I knew). 

A fetish, of course, is a whole different beast. It is not a manner of how many things you like about someone, it is an outright requirement for sexual arousal. No matter how many attractive qualities the other person has, without your fetish being engaged, you wont be aroused.


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## Brizzledude (Jan 14, 2015)

Hi all. First post here. 

I'm afraid I've never been someone who analyses things, or myself, too deeply. 

I know what I like, what makes me enjoy life, what makes me smile, what I want to pursue. 

With regard to sexual preference I realised that overweight women, and the whole concept of gluttony / lack of fitness, really turned me on when I was on my early teens. 

It's never been all-consuming, but as I get older it forms a bigger part of my existence. 

I'd summarise it thus: if I had the opportunity to get it together with one of a pair of twins. Both very good looking. One is really fit, goes to the gym regularly, muscular, hint of a six pack. The other does very little exercise, eats too much, and as a consequence is flabby and out of shape. 

I'd fancy both. Have a great tine with either. But given the choice: curvy soft girl every time. I'd never get bored, never fall out of lust. 

It's how I'm wired.


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## choudhury (Jan 14, 2015)

Interesting discussion. Frankly, I haven't thought that much about the concept of a "sexual fetish." It does seem to me that the term does some of the work that "pervert" did in a less polite era. No one ever talks about the desire for _thin_ partners as a "fetish." The word "fetish" seems, in part, to be a way of denoting desires that are considered deviant or outside the norm.

This is probably why I tend not to like the term. 

But if, by "fetish," we simply mean, a _specific pre-requisite for sexual arousal_, then gosh, I'm actually not a "fat fetishist." I've gotten hot and heavy with a couple of relatively thin ladies in my time, and arousal wasn't a problem, although they weren't my preferred type. Once you're getting intimate, a lot of other sensual factors come into play and have the desired effect.

Yet saying all of that doesn't do full justice to the extent to which I am wired to lust after BBWs. Are you kidding? Out in public, the only women I'll look at "in that way" are BBWs. When I look at porn, it's BBWs. In my head, it's BBWs. And no, this was in no way a choice - why would I "choose" an orientation that throws me outside the mainstream? Geez, in the pre-internet era, even finding BBW porn was a chore. A lot of frustration and isolation accompanied this "preference." 

Fuelingfire is on the right track that being an FA is _something_ like being gay. I don't think it's nearly as painful as being gay often has been - nobody ever tried to make FA-BBW relations illegal, for instance, and I doubt many FAs have committed suicide because they are so torn by the own sexual identity, which still happens to too many LGBT young people. On the other hand, being FA is not nearly as publicly accepted nowadays as being gay is (or so I'd argue). It's still widely regarded as a deviant fetish, where gayness is only seen this way by Neanderthals.

Rambling answer. Sorry.


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## bigmac (Jan 14, 2015)

choudhury said:


> ...
> 
> But if, by "fetish," we simply mean, a _specific pre-requisite for sexual arousal_, then gosh, I'm actually not a "fat fetishist." I've gotten hot and heavy with a couple of relatively thin ladies in my time, and arousal wasn't a problem, although they weren't my preferred type. Once you're getting intimate, a lot of other sensual factors come into and have the desired effect.



I too have been with a couple of thin women and arousal wasn't a problem. Good thing to since my wife is now under 175 pounds.

I've always been physically attracted to large women but there have been quite a few smaller women who have turned my head over the years. However, the smaller women never seemed interested in me so I pretty much stuck with BBWs. 





choudhury said:


> Yet saying all of that doesn't do full justice to the extent to which I am wired to lust after BBWs. Are you kidding? Out in public, the only women I'll look at "in that way" are BBWs. When I look at porn, it's BBWs. In my head, it's BBWs. And no, this was in no way a choice - why would I "choose" an orientation that throws me outside the mainstream? Geez, in the pre-internet era, even finding BBW porn was a chore. A lot of frustration and isolation accompanied this "preference."
> 
> ...



I've lusted after mostly BBWs but more and more I find myself attracted to thin women too. So if its a hardwired preference can it change over time?


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## Dromond (Jan 14, 2015)

If it's "hardwired," then it can't change. It's part of the hardware, like sexual orientation. If your attraction to big people can change, then it isn't hardwired.


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## choudhury (Jan 15, 2015)

Dromond said:


> If it's "hardwired," then it can't change. It's part of the hardware, like sexual orientation. If your attraction to big people can change, then it isn't hardwired.


 
For my part, my attraction to BBWs has been there from Day One and never changed.

There have been shifts within those parameters. For instance, while pear-shaped women with bulbous hips, butts, and thighs remain my 'ideal' type, I've developed a MUCH stronger appreciation of big bellies over time. I think this has to do with my wife, who is big all over but whose belly has gotten _really_ big over the years :eat2: In fact, I always feel less-than-fully satisfied if we make love without a fair bit of belly play. Does this mean I have a "belly fetish?"

(It also took me years to recognize the degree to which I find weight gain, in and of itself, intensely sexually exciting, but that's more about self-discovery than 'changing' preferences, probably).

I'm certainly capable of _appreciating_ a beautiful thin woman, and, like I said before, have been able to be aroused by thinner woman in intimate situations. But for the most part, when I admire a thin woman, it's as an appreciation of her beauty, but not in a deeply _desiring_ or sexual way; more like admiring a painting than being turned on sexually.


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## Azrael (Jan 21, 2015)

Over the years, I've come to a certain conclusion about myself.
I can be attracted to average to supersized partners however what has not changed has been my interest in feedism. Be they thin or fat the anticipation is always with the gain and it is always in the back of my mind.

In this regard, I actually think I'll have to classify myself more as a feeder as opposed to an FA, since that is my greater interest.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (Jan 22, 2015)

Dromond said:


> Fat appreciation is not a fetish, it's a preference. If you have fetishes attached to it, that's a different issue. But fat =/= fetish.



Very good point, Dromond. Fat is a preference. For some people it might be a fetish, but it does not have to be. A fetish is something someone needs to have in order to be turned on sexually.


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## BigFA (Jan 29, 2015)

I call myself a lifelong FA because ever since I first became interested in girls, I have gravitated toward chubby and fat females. I definitely view it as a preference and not a fetish. In junior high, I was immensely turned on by girls and teachers with thick thighs and full hips, and not so attracted to truly fat girls. As I have grown older and been a long-time member of boards like these, my preferences have expanded to include the beauty and sexual allure of super size BBWs (300 to 500 lbs.) as well.

I have always been turned on by big bellies on women, which has evolved to liking to look at huge male bellies as well and loving my own big belly. And watching a woman stuff herself and her belly expand (as many of my female relatives would do during holiday get-togethers), definitely fueled my adolescent and teenage sexual fantasies and develop my attraction to stuffing as a turn-on as well. I would call my love of big bellies and attraction to stuffing definitely fetishes. They do not have to be present for me to be turned-on or attracted to a woman but they definitely add pleasure to my overall sexual arousal. 

My love of fat women is definitely a preference but one I could not change even if I wanted to. I have been hot wired that way every since I can remember and while I can look at an attractive slim or regular size woman and say to myself "Boy she is nice looking" and even compliment her as such, the only way I can get sexually turned-on is if a woman is chubby or fat. Such preferences is what makes life so rich. Different strokes for different folks.


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## fuelingfire (Jan 31, 2015)

To clarify, comparing being gay to being a FA, I meant for the teen who thinks there is something wrong with them, they are the only one, wishing they were like everyone else, kind of things. No FA faces the prejudice that the LGBT community faces.
I like seeing the responses. I do still stand by what I said.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 1, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> No FA faces the prejudice that the LGBT community faces.
> 
> 
> > Of course not. For one thing, you're comparing the experience of an individual to that of an entire community. Perhaps we could accomplish more by focusing on the fact that both communities face prejudice and asking how we can best overcome it, rather than competing to decide who has more misery.


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## Xyantha Reborn (Feb 1, 2015)

All of the below is in the context of sexual attraction from FFA to the opposite sex, not the social aspect of fat acceptance.

From a colloquial standpoint, fetish has a very negative connotation that most people steer away from; I don't think many people proudly scream that word from the rooftops. However, from a medical standpoint "fetish" seems to be used in two ways.

One is that a (and i quote) 'deviant' sexual drive can ONLY be stimulated by the fetish. Deviant also has very negative social connotation and is starting to be frowned upon in papers because it means to "violate social norms". It is a term that is becoming as outdated as 'race'.

Some papers tend use fetish to describe the sexualization of a non sexual body part. For example; I personally find a guy's thick thighs and big belly sexually arousing. My husband jokes that he never would have thought HIS belly is MY erogenous zone. 

So I guess I COULD be classified as having a fetish. However: I personally roll my eyes at this because breasts are a functional part of rearing children. Butts are where poop comes out of. Neither SHOULD be sexy, but the general populace has decided they are, so it is generally accepted. 

I think that for some, a heavier body is as much a preference as blonde hair. Visually appealing, but in no way gets your engine revving. For some, it is an absolute requirement to becoming aroused. For many, it will be some shade in between, with other variables coming into play.

I can't quite say I have a "preference" for fat because to me that is like saying I prefer white bread over whole wheat, or I prefer guys with blue eyes. It is more than that, for me. I can't quite say I have a "fetish" in the first way, because fat is not REQUIRED for me to achieve an orgasm (it certainly _helps_). Again, I could say I have a fetish because I find a big belly or thick thighs sexually attractive. I don't get upset is someone uses the word, but I do put a caveat on their statement that it isn't my be all-end all in a partner.

I found the term "erotic stimuli" and I like it enough that I think i will commandeer it. For me, fat is an erotic stimuli; it is not my _only_ one, but is a strong one. 


--
As an aside: While trying to do some general searches I typed in "Sex things that get you -" and google autofilled it with "--on the sex offenders list".

WHAT?! NO! I was going to type "horny!"

We are wondering if liking fat is a preference vs fetish...while other people are trying to confirm what acts would put them on the sex offenders list.  Perspective!


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## agouderia (Feb 3, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> I found the term "erotic stimuli" and I like it enough that I think i will commandeer it. For me, fat is an erotic stimuli; it is not my _only_ one, but is a strong one.



Erotic stimuli - that's an excellent term and describes very well what fat means for probably the vast majority of F/FAs.

Fetish is too narrow and too extreme - most emotional aspects in life come in nuances.


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## ClashCityRocker (Feb 4, 2015)

glad this is a topic of discussion..i've thought about this long and hard of late. for the longest time i considered my affinity for bbw's as a fetish, neglecting the fact that i always found skinnier women attractive as well. in that respect, i'd say it's definitely a preference. now, the feedee thing is definitely a fetish, as it's something i've explored with both bbw's and smaller women, and i was never able to differentiate the two in my own mind. as ive grown older, i'm able to reconcile the two and understand the difference between preference and fetish.

the thing that used to give me problems when i was younger was how to share my fetishes (when it would come up in conversation, because it inevitably always did) with whomever i was dating without weirding them out to the point of alienation, but i'm also starting to realize that feederism, although it plays on aspects which all people are sort of into, is a pretty unique fetish.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 21, 2016)

I tend to think that the guys that simply prefer a fatter female body get easily confused with the fetishists. 

That being said, I get Fat and Proud's point. However, FA or not, that guy was making a booty call out of you when you felt more. Whether it was about your size or not, he wasn't what YOU want/need as far as his "feelings" for you go, obviously. 

There is nothing wrong with you. You are quite lovely. You will find what YOU want in due time. 

He isn't going to change. All you can change is where you focus your attention.


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## bigmac (Feb 21, 2016)

IMHO there really isn't much of a distinction between FAs and so called fetishists. FA's are guys who are sexually attracted to fat women. Fat fetishists are just FAs who haven't learn to filter their communications.


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## fuelingfire (Feb 21, 2016)

It's unfortunate that after 3 FAs gave her, IMO, good advice. Which really had nothing to do with being an FA. Then someone comes into the FA forum with a post expressing bigotry toward FAs. There is no safety for FAs even in the FA forum. It's been made clear in many other forum post at Dims, that most people who are pro size acceptance, are quick to dismiss FAs and say negative things about them. This isn't meant as an attack on Fatandproud. But it's annoying to see coming into a forum for FAs.


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## landshark (Feb 21, 2016)

bigmac said:


> IMHO there really isn't much of a distinction between FAs and so called fetishists. FA's are guys who are sexually attracted to fat women. Fat fetishists are just FAs who haven't learn to filter their communications.



I'll have to respectfully but vociferously disagree on the fat fetishists. An FA is attracted to fat women. A fetishist is attracted to the fat itself. 

I think at attraction or preference for BBWs is no different than a preference for blondes or a certain ethnicity. It's a preference for a certain type. That someone has a preference or "type" is not considered abnormal for just about any other physical characteristic other than size/weight. Why then are we so quick to dismiss FAs as fetishists? 

Granted I think there are fat fetishists out there. But like I said once already, I think a fetishist may be embarrassed to be seen in public or by his friends, or is more likely to use a fat woman for sex, or is attracted to the fat itself (just like some people have a foot fetish or any of the countless others out there). So an FA may see a BBW whose fat attracts him to the person a fetishist may be attracted to the fat itself with no actual interest in the person.

Is there some overlap? I'd be willing to say without a doubt, yes. But to lump them together as one and the same...laughably inaccurate.


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## bigmac (Feb 22, 2016)

No one's attracted to fat per se -- FAs are attracted to fat bodies (and not all fat bodies are equally attractive -- just like not all thin bodies are equally attractive). Most FAs (like most people) have multiple relationships over their lives. Some are purely physical -- others something more. Does a guy who has a purely physical relationship with a fat girl one year and a more serious relationship with another equally fat girl the next year magically change from a fetishist to a more respectable FA?


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 22, 2016)

bigmac said:


> IMHO there really isn't much of a distinction between FAs and so called fetishists. FA's are guys who are sexually attracted to fat women. Fat fetishists are just FAs who haven't learn to filter their communications.


Please let me clarify: I consider my fiance an FA. He was with women bigger than myself before me, liked them at their size, likes women my size, does not harrass me to gain weight (or lose it) and seems to see "beauty" in my body/self. He's happy with me how I am.

Seeing me naked turns him on or the way my arse sticks out in dress. An ex boyfriend and an ex husband seemed to be happy with such things, too. They do not need to watch me eat cheesecake or talk about becoming immobile to get a boner. 

THAT is the big difference I see in men with a preference and some of the fetishists I have met on Dims. Simple enough for me.


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## landshark (Feb 22, 2016)

bigmac said:


> Does a guy who has a purely physical relationship with a fat girl one year and a more serious relationship with another equally fat girl the next year magically change from a fetishist to a more respectable FA?



This is a non-starter because it assumes (wrongly) that a guy who is in a purely physical relationship with a fat girl is a fetishist to begin with. It's flawed from the onset. I did this a few times before I was married. I had purely physical relationships with a couple women who I found attractive, and in which both parties knew there was no long term connection. That isn't a fetish, that's a casual sexual relationship between mutually attracted partners. That the women happened to be fat didn't make me a fetishist. It made me a guy who likes fat women. 



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Please let me clarify: I consider my fiance an FA. He was with women bigger than myself before me, liked them at their size, likes women my size, does not harrass me to gain weight (or lose it) and seems to see "beauty" in my body/self. He's happy with me how I am.
> 
> Seeing me naked turns him on or the way my arse sticks out in dress. An ex boyfriend and an ex husband seemed to be happy with such things, too. They do not need to watch me eat cheesecake or talk about becoming immobile to get a boner.
> 
> THAT is the big difference I see in men with a preference and some of the fetishists I have met on Dims. Simple enough for me.



Well said. 

As I already suggested, a fetishist may be attracted to fat itself, feeding, gaining, etc. An FA is one who is just simply attracted to a person who happens to be fat. He doesn't need any of that other stuff. I certainly don't.


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## Yakatori (Feb 22, 2016)

fuelingfire said:


> "_I wonder what would happen if I went into the BBW forum and wrote..._"


Probably nothing. Because most of the women who used frequent that folder have moved on. Because:



fuelingfire said:


> ...Then someone comes into the FA forum with a post expressing bigotry toward FAs...


It's a reaction to (_radioisotope-of_?) all of the crude, boorish,anti-social, & generally degrading behavior that's put on fat women..._for being fat_. When, of course, in reality, it's more to do with the person exhibiting it. And how we, any of us, all of us-at one point or another, have tolerated it. Been a party to it. That this folder if not the entire forum and fat community writ large at some level represents. For them. Or anyone. At one point or another. 

So, basically, you'd do better to step away, for a minute, from the idea of a _safe space_. And just realize that, no matter where you go, you're still basically out there in the world. With other people. Who have plenty of baggage of their own. 

Who don't like you.

Who will never like you. 

Because of who you are, yes; but also as much for precisely what that means only for them.

So, fairly, I think you -_can_- fault her. But more so for how everything's necessarily couched in the _lolz-on-lolz-on-top-of-more-lolz_.


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## bigmac (Feb 23, 2016)

happily_married said:


> ... I had purely physical relationships with a couple women who I found attractive, and in which both parties knew there was no long term connection. That isn't a fetish, that's a casual sexual relationship between mutually attracted partners. *That the women happened to be fat didn't make me a fetishist. It made me a guy who likes fat women. *
> 
> ...



In the eyes of many people outside of the BBW/FA community you would indeed be considered a fetishist (as would I). 

A term women seem to use more than men applies here -- "I _like_ what I like". Lots of guys _like _women with big breasts, lots of guys _like_ women with large butts and thighs, somewhat fewer men _like_ really big bellies. If a guy tells his girl OMG I love your huge breasts its unlikely that without more he'd be considered a fetishist. If he says to his girl that he really likes her huge bottom he may or may not be considered a fetishist. But if he says OMG your huge fat belly is so sexy in all likelihood he'll be considered a fetishist.

In my books a fetish is just a _like _that is less broadly appreciated. Therefore, the determination of what is and what isn't a fetish is situational. Thus the terms FA and Fat Fetishist merely create a distinction without difference.

I once called a 500 lb casual partner "my sexy fat girl" she broke into tears and wouldn't talk to me for a week. Going forward I kept my comments about a partner's body to size to myself. Whenever guys articulate their carnal thoughts they are at risk of being labeled a fetishist or objectifier of women. Best to keep your mouth shut an enjoy your partners abundance in silence.


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## landshark (Feb 23, 2016)

bigmac said:


> In the eyes of many people outside of the BBW/FA community you would indeed be considered a fetishist (as would I).



Certainly, but that's a matter of opinion on their part. And counter to that opinion are many who also recognize that preference, regardless of how mainstream or non-mainstream it may be perceived, is simply preference and that having a preference that may not be as wide spread as others does not in and over itself make a fetish. 



bigmac said:


> A term women seem to use more than men applies here -- "I _like_ what I like". Lots of guys _like _women with big breasts, lots of guys _like_ women with large butts and thighs, somewhat fewer men _like_ really big bellies. If a guy tells his girl OMG I love your huge breasts its unlikely that without more he'd be considered a fetishist. If he says to his girl that he really likes her huge bottom he may or may not be considered a fetishist. But if he says OMG your huge fat belly is so sexy in all likelihood he'll be considered a fetishist.



This is actually similar to a point I've already made. A fetishist may be attracted to the fat itself. A fetishist may be aroused by the act of feeding or by the idea of his partner gaining. A fetishist may be attracted to a certain part a number on the scale more so than the actual person. But someone who simply appreciates the way the whole package (forgive the expression) appears is just a guy who has a preference. It certainly does not make him a fetishist. 



bigmac said:


> In my books a fetish is just a _like _that is less broadly appreciated. Therefore, the determination of what is and what isn't a fetish is situational. Thus the terms FA and Fat Fetishist merely create a distinction without difference.



To you, yes. But to a lot of guys whose preferences are for normal girls who weigh more than other normal girls there is a huge distinction between our preferences and fetishists. I recognize you are working off a subjective definition. I just think it's an over simplification. I've encountered it before. In some cases it's intellectual laziness: a lack of effort to understand why someone's preferences would be different. In other cases it's a lack of ability to understand. I'm sure you've given it a lot of though over time and am not accusing you of falling into one of these two categories. But that is definitely true of the staggering majority of people who lump 'em all together.



bigmac said:


> I once called a 500 lb casual partner "my sexy fat girl" she broke into tears and wouldn't talk to me for a week. Going forward I kept my comments about a partner's body to size to myself. Whenever guys articulate their carnal thoughts they are at risk of being labeled a fetishist or objectifier of women. Best to keep your mouth shut an enjoy your partners abundance in silence.



Communication is wildly important. When I first started to venture out of the FA closet I mistakenly believed my preference for fat women would itself be endearing enough to these women. Dead wrong. I had to learn quickly that when a woman asked why I was attracted to her (translation: Why would I want to date a fat woman) I had to find a way to honestly communicate the preferences I had, or my "type" and that she fit that basic type. From there it was a matter of getting to know each other and hoping we had something we could build around. I got good at it over time, but it was sometimes a very steep and painful learning curve.


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## bigmac (Feb 24, 2016)

happily_married said:


> ...
> 
> Communication is wildly important. ...




Yes, communication is very important. However, it must be remembered that what is not said can be just as important as what is. Having an appropriate filter is essential. When it comes to communicating with fat women in many instances its best that FAs keep their thoughts to themselves.


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## choudhury (Feb 24, 2016)

Well, I for one remain confused about the difference between FA and 'fetishist.' I can't really grasp the idea that the 'fetishist' is 'only attracted to fat.' Who lusts after a disembodied lump of fat? We're all attracted to fat WOMEN not fat per se. So that can't be the distinction. Other distinctions invoked in this thread include extreme fantasies or one-dimensional behaviors (e.g., feeding someone to immobility, obsessing over numbers on the scale). Maybe this is closer to the mark. It's still a bit tricky, because most FAs probably are on a continuum here - we like weight gain even if it's not carried to extremes, we like discovering what the scale says, we tend to especially enjoy the fattest part of our mate's body (belly, butt, whatever). But we like other things beyond that. 

It sounds to me like we want to call a 'fetishist' those who have a very OBJECTIFYING one-dimensional approach to BBWs - framing them purely as objects to be fattened, or weighed, etc.. And we want to call 'FAs' those who have a more fully-rounded, mature approach to women. Now I can get behind that. But is this how the word 'fetish' is used outside the FA community? Is a foot fetishist a guy who objectifies women's feet, excluding any other consideration than that, or just a guy for whom the sexiest part of a woman is the foot? 

Whatever the case may be, I don't like being called a 'fat fetishist.' First, it makes it sounds like I want to get it on with a big lump of fat rather than a fat woman. Second, it seems to imply some deviant obsessiveness, when in fact I'm no different from a guy who lusts after thin women - I just like my ladies rotund.


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## Tad (Feb 24, 2016)

There absolutely are guys who are only interested in women who are gaining weight, or who are at very extreme weights. And since 'relationships' based on such narrow and likely damaging footing tend not to be as long lasting as ones with broader and more sustainable basis, these guys can inflict themselves on quite a number of women over their lives, and potentially hit on many more (making it seem like people of their persuasion are more common than they really are).

Of course, the ones who are really open about by asking every woman on ever fat related site if they'll meet the guy's fantasy are annoying, but the really dangerous ones are the ones who can cover up what they really want, and just try to manipulate someone into doing what they want, while claiming otherwise. "No, I'm not a feeder, I just love your body as it is" while trying to manipulate a partner into gaining weight, for example.

Sadly, such people do exist (likely more men than women, but almost certainly existing in both genders -- just based on general trends for anti-social behavior). You can't blame someone whose been afflicted by such a person for distrusting every other person who says the same things -- their experience is that the words don't match the actions.

All we can really do on a site like this is be open about the fact that manipulating your partner is not good, that if you feel you are being manipulated that is a big warning sign, and help people work through their feelings by talking them over. But sadly the worst offenders don't care that anyone else thinks it is wrong, they are going to do what appeals to them and will do what they can from anyone ever seeing past their mask.


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## agouderia (Feb 24, 2016)

How about looking into a dictionary guys?

While FA indeed has no standard definition as it is a sub-culture term, 'fetishist' is an established psychological expression with a pretty clear-cut general clinical and linguistic definition, being:

_A person whose sexual desire or gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, activity, part of the body, etc._

So if fat is an necessity for sexual desire or gratification, we're talking about fetishism.

Looking back at the OPs question - yes that probably was a fat fetishist who was only looking for his sexual gratification. 
If you enjoy the sex - fine, but leave it on the physical leavel. Don't invest any real emotions.


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## Xyantha Reborn (Feb 24, 2016)

Good points Tad.

I think one of the reasons F/FAs have become emotionally sensitive about it is the same reason why heavier people have.

Because fat people are lazy, stupid, weak. Right?
FFA are creepy, destructive, and fetishists. Right?

Both are misconceptions because there ARE people who fit that description. I think that in order to counteract this for BHM and BBW a zero tolerance approach to hate seemed to have been adopted. However, some backlash /generically negative statements against F/FA is tolerated. The reason there was a rise is that the statement was all encompassing - there was no qualifier to say "some" ffa.

And for some, silence could be considered damning agreement.

But regardless - i think the OP is better off without him, because FFa or not he sounds like a prick!


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## bigmac (Feb 24, 2016)

agouderia said:


> ...
> 
> So if fat is an necessity for sexual desire or gratification, we're talking about fetishism.
> 
> ...



Fat is necessary for desire for 99% of straight males. Fat is what makes women look like women. This is true for even thin women. Indeed if a woman's body has too little fat she becomes infertile (a level of skinniness the vast majority of straight men find unattractive).


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## bigmac (Feb 24, 2016)

choudhury said:


> Well, I for one remain confused about the difference between FA and 'fetishist.' I can't really grasp the idea that the 'fetishist' is 'only attracted to fat.' Who lusts after a disembodied lump of fat? We're all attracted to fat WOMEN not fat per se. So that can't be the distinction. Other distinctions invoked in this thread include extreme fantasies or one-dimensional behaviors (e.g., feeding someone to immobility, obsessing over numbers on the scale). Maybe this is closer to the mark. It's still a bit tricky, because most FAs probably are on a continuum here - we like weight gain even if it's not carried to extremes, we like discovering what the scale says, we tend to especially enjoy the fattest part of our mate's body (belly, butt, whatever). But we like other things beyond that.
> 
> It sounds to me like we want to call a 'fetishist' those who have a very OBJECTIFYING one-dimensional approach to BBWs - framing them purely as objects to be fattened, or weighed, etc.. And we want to call 'FAs' those who have a more fully-rounded, mature approach to women. Now I can get behind that. But is this how the word 'fetish' is used outside the FA community? Is a foot fetishist a guy who objectifies women's feet, excluding any other consideration than that, or just a guy for whom the sexiest part of a woman is the foot?
> 
> Whatever the case may be, I don't like being called a 'fat fetishist.' First, it makes it sounds like I want to get it on with a big lump of fat rather than a fat woman. Second, it seems to imply some deviant obsessiveness, when in fact I'm no different from a guy who lusts after thin women - I just like my ladies rotund.



Excellent post! I agree with everything said.


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## fuelingfire (Feb 24, 2016)

Wow, it's been awhile since I have seen a topic get this much attention in the FA/FFA forum! Also I wan't able to rep anyone, due to recently giving most of you rep for other posts.


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## bigmac (Feb 24, 2016)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> ...
> 
> he sounds like a prick!



Yes, I think this is the better point. Rather than worrying about whether or not someone is a fetishist worry about whether or not they are a jerk.


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## landshark (Feb 24, 2016)

bigmac said:


> Yes, I think this is the better point. Rather than worrying about whether or not someone is a fetishist worry about whether or not they are a jerk.



True enough. OP started this thread about a specific person in her life (or in and out of her life I guess) and collectively we raised it to a philosophical debate about FAs vs fetishists. I may be a good deal at fault here because I am the one who suggested he was a fetishist and not really an FA. 

With all that said, I think we can agree OP is better serving herself by moving on from this guy. OP is a very attractive woman. She doesn't need this guy. She's pretty enough for just about any guy. When she proves to herself she doesn't need this guy it will be every bit his loss.


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## Blockierer (Feb 28, 2016)

agouderia said:


> ....
> _A person whose sexual desire or gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, activity, part of the body, etc._
> 
> So if fat is an necessity for sexual desire or gratification, we're talking about fetishism. ...


So, according to this definition, I'm an FA and fetishist.  
My fat wife is happy with the fact that I like exclusively fat women. 
I don't know what's wrong with fetishism?


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## ThisIsBrian (Mar 2, 2016)

Blockierer said:


> I don't know what's wrong with fetishism?



Despite Happily Married's insistence to the contrary, having a fetish doesn't automatically mean that you're a creep or that you use people. I think most reasonable people here would agree that there is something wrong with treating someone like garbage in pursuit of satisfying your fetish. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm saying that having a fetish isn't a promise to be a scumbag.


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## landshark (Mar 2, 2016)

ThisIsBrian said:


> *Despite Happily Married's insistence to the contrary, having a fetish doesn't automatically mean that you're a creep or that you use people.* I think most reasonable people here would agree that there is something wrong with treating someone like garbage in pursuit of satisfying your fetish. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm saying that having a fetish isn't a promise to be a scumbag.



Where exactly have I insisted this? Quote it directly if you would, please. I've argued that being an FA does not automatically make one a fetishist, but I've made no claim that fetishists are automatically creeps. If you feel I've argued otherwise I welcome your thoughts. I insist that you use direct quotes that I've made. Please don't paraphrase.


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## ThisIsBrian (Mar 2, 2016)

happily_married said:


> I insist that you use direct quotes that I've made.




Um, no. No offense man but I kind of don't care that you've insisted.

I'm not going to go collect a bunch of quotes. Mainly because I'm an obstinate dickhead. Also, I'm lazy.

My use of the word creep was a way of summarizing your definition of a fetishist. Your definition being: someone who refuses to be seen in public with their lover, someone who overlooks a person's humanity for their fat, and someone who uses another person just for sex. All three of those qualities are inherently creepy, therefore I am concluding that in your view a person with a fetish is a creep. Maybe I'm wrong but that seems to be what you've been implying.

I disagree with your definition and I see myself as an FA with some fetishistic leanings. So, I take offense to the implication that I meet any of your criteria for what qualifies one as a fetishist. 

I've never used someone for sex. I've held hands with with big women in public and have been openly affectionate. I've introduced fat women to my family. I've encouraged exercise, healthy eating, and, yes, even weight loss. To the best of my ability I have tried to love and be a good, decent, man for every woman I have ever dated. And while all this is true it is also true that I consider myself to be someone with some sexual tastes that could be considered fetishistic. So, I'm resistant to the idea that anyone attracted to fat women in a way that differs from your specific brand of attraction is considered a fetishist as you've defined it. I think that your definition of a fetishist is exactly that; *your* definition.


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## landshark (Mar 2, 2016)

ThisIsBrian said:


> Um, no. No offense man but I kind of don't care that you've insisted.
> 
> I'm not going to go collect a bunch of quotes. Mainly because I'm an obstinate dickhead. Also, I'm lazy.



Fair enough. But let the record note: You are grossly mischaracterizing things I've said and in your own words too lazy and too obstinate a dickhead to take the time to review what I've actually said. With this in mind, any critique you make of my position on this subject is fundamentally flawed. 



ThisIsBrian said:


> My use of the word creep was a way of summarizing your definition of a fetishist. Your definition being: someone who refuses to be seen in public with their lover, someone who overlooks a person's humanity for their fat, and someone who uses another person just for sex. All three of those qualities are inherently creepy, therefore I am concluding that in your view a person with a fetish is a creep. Maybe I'm wrong but that seems to be what you've been implying.



Wrong again. I've said those things MAY be indicators one is a fetishist rather than an actual FA. That word "may" is crucial because I won't speak in absolutes. It's a possibility a fetishist fits the description I've given but not all of them will. Hence the word "may." I've used "will" a few times too, but taken as a whole in context of what I've put on this thread my take on fetishists is suggestive, not definitive. 



ThisIsBrian said:


> I disagree with your definition and I see myself as an FA with some fetishistic leanings. So, I take offense to the implication that I meet any of your criteria for what qualifies one as a fetishist.



I'm not sure how you can disagree with my "definition" because I've offered neither a definition for neither fetishist nor FAs. I've simply shared some indicators that MAY help OP discern one from another. 



ThisIsBrian said:


> I've never used someone for sex. I've held hands with with big women in public and have been openly affectionate. I've introduced fat women to my family. I've encouraged exercise, healthy eating, and, yes, even weight loss. To the best of my ability I have tried to love and be a good, decent, man for every woman I have ever dated. And while all this is true it is also true that I consider myself to be someone with some sexual tastes that could be considered fetishistic. *So, I'm resistant to the idea that anyone attracted to fat women in a way that differs from your specific brand of attraction is considered a fetishist as you've defined it. * I think that your definition of a fetishist is exactly that; *your* definition.



Uh...If you've read my posts here you'd see I've not argued this. You're pretty far off on a lot of things I said. I was hoping for a reasonable conversation and an opportunity to clarify my position but you've made it clear (self described dickhead, obstinate, lazy) that's not possible. Doesn't mean we can't co-exist here and elsewhere on Dims, but it seems it would utterly fruitless to try to discuss this any further with you.


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## ThisIsBrian (Mar 2, 2016)

Ok, apart from being a lazy obstinate dickhead, the other reason I didn't want to quote you is because I didn't feel like having the conversation where we go over what you said line by line and you backpedal and mince words and lawyer your way out of standing by what you actually said. But you went ahead and did that anyway. 

The fact that I didn't want to facilitate your tedious debate style doesn't mean that I haven't reviewed everything that you've said. If you think you haven't attempted to define what a fetishist is I suggest that you take another good long look at what you've actually said. 

But whether or not what you offered could truly be called a "definition" or whether or not you used the words "may" or "will" is not the point. The point is that you don't seem to understand the subject you're pontificating about and you're pushing your misunderstanding out into this community. Your misconceptions could very well serve to further marginalize people who may already feel marginalized.

You seem like a perfectly nice guy. I don't mean to be an asshole but I don't think that this should go unchallenged. The only fruit in this "utterly fruitless" discussion is the discussion itself and it needs to be had.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 3, 2016)

happily_married said:


> ...I won't speak in absolutes.



The only reason I point out this absolute statement about not speaking in absolutes is that it amuses me, not to pick apart your position, which is valid and which I respect. 

I welcome all to do the same with my posts. 






ThisIsBrian said:


> The only fruit in this "utterly fruitless" discussion is the discussion itself and it needs to be had.



Certainly.


It seems to me that both of you value respecting a partner, but just have different terms you use for those who don't. Were this a spoken discussion, I imagine you'd find out you're not that far apart from each other. 

Myself? I am an FA, a fetishist, and one who respects my partner. Also, like both of you, I strive to be a gentleman. 




Although I, too, have my moments as a lazy, obstinate...er...so-and-so.


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## landshark (Mar 3, 2016)

ThisIsBrian said:


> Ok, apart from being a lazy obstinate dickhead, the other reason I didn't want to quote you is because I didn't feel like having the conversation where we go over what you said line by line and you backpedal and mince words and lawyer your way out of standing by what you actually said. But you went ahead and did that anyway.
> 
> The fact that I didn't want to facilitate your tedious debate style doesn't mean that I haven't reviewed everything that you've said. If you think you haven't attempted to define what a fetishist is I suggest that you take another good long look at what you've actually said.
> 
> ...



If you can't connect your conclusion to the statement from which you drew it maybe you shouldn't mischaracterize what people say. It's easy and cheap to "summarize" what you believe is meant by a statement but it takes some actual thinking to go back and take another look and challenge your initial conclusions. 


I'll invite you again to use my statements directly and bridge the gap between the statement and your conclusion. I will stand by my words unless a well thought argument shows me I'm wrong or at a minimum challenges me to rethink my wording in an effort to improve how I communicate my points. I make this in all sincerity because like free thinker noted I suspect we are more alike than not.

Otherwise I'm content to accept you are as you've described yourself and just here to make accusations and conclusions that are void of merit. I hope you'll at least engage even if ultimately we don't agree. We will at least be better for having the discussion.


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## ThisIsBrian (Mar 3, 2016)

Again, understand that I'm not required to present my disagreement to you in exactly the way that you'd prefer just because you said that I need to. This is an informal discussion on the internet, not the Supreme Court's hearing of Happily Married v. Fat Admirers. I'm not required to follow your protocol and you don't get to dictate terms. If you weren't so insistent upon the proper way of approaching you, I'm sure I would have quoted you by now but I find that I'm a real sucker for reverse-psychology.

And again, don't mistake my unwillingness to argue within the parameters that you insist upon as a lack of review. Everything that I've "summarized" is something that you have implied. I haven't conjured any of those implications out of thin air. I haven't mischaracterized your statements. You would like me use direct quotes so you can parse words. But this isn't that nuanced. Either my summary of your views is accurate or it isn't. 

Four different times you've said that a person with a fetish is attracted to the fat itself but not to the person. You've also said that a person with a fetish will never be in a committed relationship with a fat person and will only use them for occasional sexual gratification. You've placed FAs and fetishists into two distinct categories. One category being the well-behaved, normal, FAs. The other being creepy, exploitative,(my words) fetishists.

Honestly, as Free Thinker alluded to, it isn't so much that I disagree with you that these behaviors exist or that it's a problem. I'm disagreeing with your terminology. I don't think an FA is someone who is guaranteed to behave respectably nor is someone with a fetish guaranteed to act like a pig, which seems to be what you have been implying. And I think that there is far more overlap between these two groups than you're willing to admit. You seem to be trying to draw a clear line between an FA and a fetishist when it may not always be that clear cut.


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## bigmac (Mar 3, 2016)

The are FAs fetishists question is really not worth investing much effort in.

There more important question is are people behaving like dicks. If you abuse your significant other you're a dick. The kind of abuse doesn't matter -- physical abuse -- mental abuse -- financial abuse ... they all lead to dickhood. Motivation also doesn't matter. "I hit you to show how much I care" isn't much of a justification. 

Bottom line -- it matters little what you call a FA/BBW relationship. The more important thing is whether the relationship is healthy or not.


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## landshark (Mar 3, 2016)

bigmac said:


> The are FAs fetishists question is really not worth investing much effort in.
> 
> There more important question is are people behaving like dicks. * If you abuse your significant other you're a dick. The kind of abuse doesn't matter -- physical abuse -- mental abuse -- financial abuse ... they all lead to dickhood. * Motivation also doesn't matter. "I hit you to show how much I care" isn't much of a justification.
> 
> Bottom line -- it matters little what you call a FA/BBW relationship. The more important thing is whether the relationship is healthy or not.



I agree. 

Despite what Brian has alleged (without validating) I've claimed, I have actually made no values judgment on FAs or fetishists. Neither are inherently bad or good simply for being one or the other. I have a few outlandish fantasies and fetishes of my own. They simply aren't tied to weight, gaining or any of that sort, hence my making a distinction between the two (while also recognizing for some there well could be overlap for others). But knowing I have my own fetishes precludes me from making judgments or being dismissive of other fetishes. I also think most people have some sort of fetish or otherwise non-sexual fixation that others would consider abnormal. I think that is one thing about fetishes that sometimes gets overlooked. If an "oddity" has any type of sexual element it's a fetish, otherwise it's just considered "quirky." 

In OP's case I only floated the idea that her man could be a fetishist rather than an FA because his behavior seems consistent with other fetishists with whom I am familiar. I'll pause for this disclaimer: This is not a values statement about all fetishists! It is simply recognition of a pattern that I've seen before that happens to apply to some I know were fetishists. I recognized a pattern I've seen and floated an idea out there. 

Regardless the explanation for the guy's behavior I think she has received some solid advice from many of the regulars here and am confident she will make the right decisions she needs to make for herself.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Mar 4, 2016)

happily_married said:


> I agree.
> 
> Despite what Brian has alleged (without validating) I've claimed, I have actually made no values judgment on FAs or fetishists. Neither are inherently bad or good simply for being one or the other. I have a few outlandish fantasies and fetishes of my own. They simply aren't tied to weight, gaining or any of that sort, hence my making a distinction between the two (while also recognizing for some there well could be overlap for others). But knowing I have my own fetishes precludes me from making judgments or being dismissive of other fetishes. I also think most people have some sort of fetish or otherwise non-sexual fixation that others would consider abnormal. I think that is one thing about fetishes that sometimes gets overlooked. If an "oddity" has any type of sexual element it's a fetish, otherwise it's just considered "quirky."
> 
> ...



Thank you to not only you but everyone else. I think he has been looking at me on Facebook but still hasn't messaged me and I will not reach out to him either. As far as I am concerned, he has at least an inkling as to how I feel about him so, if he wants to talk, he knows where to find me.


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## landshark (Mar 5, 2016)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> Thank you to not only you but everyone else. I think he has been looking at me on Facebook but still hasn't messaged me and I will not reach out to him either. As far as I am concerned, he has at least an inkling as to how I feel about him so, if he wants to talk, he knows where to find me.



It sounds like you're in a good place or at least well on your way. It's tough but it gets easier with time and you get mentally and emotionally tougher, and able to focus on what's best for you. Keep chipping away and be ready to recognize other opportunities when they present themselves. My wife and I met when I least expected it!


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## roddles (Sep 2, 2016)

Hold on a second, I don't post much, but some of these comments really have annoyed me. Happily married, don't you think all FAs are fetishists to varying degrees? I know you may not like to think your a fetishist, but we are all here because we are attracted to fat. That is a fetish. I know the word sounds derogitive. I think as a young FA emerging most are all about the sex and the fat, but as you grow older, you hopefully find someone compatible in personality as well as physical attraction. But just like "normal people" all FAs are different and vary in intensity there are also different kinds of fat fetishism eating gaining etc. so they are the same you are in the closet about being a fetushist the same way the guy in the OP is (maybe) in the closet about his attraction to her. You tell yourself it's more respectable to be FA but same god damn thing. Speaking of the OP, everyone went and got off topic, yes guys do stand off when they on the closet. I admit I have done it, I missed out on the girl of my dreams because I was too afraid to come out and admit it


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## Xyantha Reborn (Sep 2, 2016)

You cannot use a word like fetish without defining it in this context.

If you mean by fetish that we find fatter folks sexier? Yeah.

If you mean that we only find fat folks attractive
/ we find all fat folks attractive - maybe. There are varying degrees of fetishism, if you want to call it that way. For the majority, no.

I found my hubby when thin; we had amazing sex and fell in love while thin. Does his weight add hotness? Yes, but it is not a hard requirement. Is he aware of my "fetish" - yes, we have 100% transparency. Does he think that his fat is what i love? No; thats ridiculous.

So; please define what fetish means to you; then you can get a more direct response.


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## Jon Blaze (Sep 3, 2016)

Side conversation moved. Have at it.


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## landshark (Sep 3, 2016)

roddles said:


> Hold on a second, I don't post much, but some of these comments really have annoyed me. Happily married, don't you think all FAs are fetishists to varying degrees? I know you may not like to think your a fetishist, *but we are all here because we are attracted to fat. *That is a fetish. I know the word sounds derogitive. I think as a young FA emerging most are all about the sex and the fat, but as you grow older, you hopefully find someone compatible in personality as well as physical attraction. But just like "normal people" all FAs are different and vary in intensity there are also different kinds of fat fetishism eating gaining etc. so they are the same you are in the closet about being a fetushist the same way the guy in the OP is (maybe) in the closet about his attraction to her. You tell yourself it's more respectable to be FA but same god damn thing. Speaking of the OP, everyone went and got off topic, yes guys do stand off when they on the closet. I admit I have done it, I missed out on the girl of my dreams because I was too afraid to come out and admit it



If you are attracted to fat, then I guess you are a fetishist. I am attracted to a PERSON who happens to be fat. There is a difference. At no point have I made the claim that one is better than the other; I've simply made a distinction.


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## roddles (Sep 3, 2016)

happily_married said:


> If you are attracted to fat, then I guess you are a fetishist. I am attracted to a PERSON who happens to be fat. There is a difference. At no point have I made the claim that one is better than the other; I've simply made a distinction.



I am attracted to people too mate, but I have also been attracted just fat itself on few occasions I am no more a fetishist than you. I am pretty sure you have made references to pure sexual attraction, in the real world, normal people call that booty call or fuck buddy, why here is it called fetishist? Wrong terminology, we are all fetishists here we are all in the FA/FFA forum because we get our rocks off over fat. If you are so happily married to a "person" then why do you March pompously around these boards proclaiming other members inferior to your fine judgement?


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## landshark (Sep 3, 2016)

roddles said:


> I am attracted to people too mate, but I have also been attracted just fat itself on few occasions I am no more a fetishist than you. I am pretty sure you have made references to pure sexual attraction, in the real world, normal people call that booty call or fuck buddy, why here is it called fetishist? Wrong terminology, we are all fetishists here we are all in the FA/FFA forum because we get our rocks off over fat. *If you are so happily married to a "person" then why do you March pompously around these boards proclaiming other members inferior to your fine judgement?*



I am not sure why my opinion is so upsetting to you. It is, after all, just my opinion. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with the difference I draw between an FA and someone with a fetish for fat, but it would be nice if people could disagree without letting it ruin their day.

As for the bolded portion, I challenge you to highlight where exactly I've done this. I've repeatedly said my distinction isn't a values judgment. It's no more than a distinction: a nuanced difference from one type of person to another. I've said nothing to indicated one is inherently better than another. If you feel otherwise, I welcome your specific reasons why.


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## fuelingfire (Sep 5, 2016)

I think there is a misunderstanding or something was misread here. In my opinion, I don't remember anything happily_married said as ever coming off as pompous.


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## AuntHen (Sep 6, 2016)

fuelingfire said:


> I think there is a misunderstanding or something was misread here. In my opinion, I don't remember anything happily_married said as ever coming off as pompous.



Based on his other post in the main forum, I think it is making more sense now.


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## socrates74 (Feb 1, 2017)

> I feel as if one of my fetishes may have influenced my interest in larger women.
> ......
> I know there are quite a few fetishes that are attached to fat admirations that include but are not limited to: Feederism, giantess, smothering, belly fetish, and vore. Also fat admiration can and often does exist independent of any of these fetishes. But in my case I feel as if the fetish maybe the cause of my admiration.


Alright, you "feel" your fetishes included "your" interests in larger woman. I believe you ( but that is not me).
.....
You don't "know" quite a few fetishes are attached to fat admiration. I like to feel weight touching me on top but I doubt people would say its 'smothering'. Its just a fringe benefit that developed but it doesn't guide or control me. Again, that is what you feel.

"I have always known that I like larger women...." <------- you said.
I believe you. Me: no. But today definately. I
When I look up BBW on Wikipedia (online encyclopedia), I argue with it saying "fetish'. Its in my attraction image, but being larger does not wipe out other qualities. It does not give a potential women a 'free pass'. or me either. The big in 'BBW' is subordinate to woman. I have dated and attracted thinner women. Those thinner woman have had attractive qualities, yet my pattern remains. I can't deny it and people identify me to some extent by it.


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## knightmare870 (Feb 4, 2017)

I feel that my fetishes doesn't surround my FAness, it's more of the other way around. Since learning of my desire for SS/BBW women, I've learned about what I truly enjoy fetish wise: tight clothes, button popping, feeding and stuffing, funneling, rapid weight gain, domination, and even blueberry inflation. I feel that I shaped my sex drive around my love of big women and learned more about me as time went on.


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## TwoSwords (Feb 10, 2017)

I've felt strongly drawn to very big, soft people since before I was old enough to *understand,* much less *have* sexual feelings. For this reason, I think if anything, my more romantic feelings and overall aesthetic have probably been shaped by that feeling, rather than the other way around.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 10, 2017)

Like others in this thread, I believe attraction to fatness is an orientation rather than a preference. I don't think we FAs have any choice regarding the body types that attract us. I "prefer" bottom-heavy fat women, but that doesn't mean I can't be attracted to one who is top-heavy. But my FA orientation would make it nearly impossible for me to maintain an attraction to a thin woman.

There's nothing right or wrong, good or bad, normal or abnormal, about being an FA or a non-FA; either one just _is_. If you choose to call FA-ism a fetish, then knock yourself out - it's just a word. But to be fair, you should then regard attraction to thin women with big boobs, or thin women with small boobs, or an orientation toward _any_ specific physical type, as just another fetish.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 11, 2017)

I love this reply. Let me look at it in detail.



fatgrllvr said:


> Like others in this thread, I believe attraction to fatness is an orientation rather than a preference. I don't think we FAs have any choice regarding the body types that attract us.



I know for a fact that it's not just a preference for me, though I have heard from people who *did* have some choice in the matter, so it's not impossible. It's just that I'm not one of them, and I suspect you aren't either.



fatgrllvr said:


> But my FA orientation would make it nearly impossible for me to maintain an attraction to a thin women.



We are very similar in this area. I think attraction is one of those things that just happens when it happens. It's like a tornado.

Now here's my favorite part...



fatgrllvr said:


> There's nothing right or wrong, good or bad,



Right and wrong; good and bad have to do with what a person *should* do, but to suggest that a person *should* do something, they need to be *able* to do that thing. As we say in philosophy, "should" implies "can." As long as it's impossible for people to make themselves feel attracted to a certain stimuli, saying they should feel attracted to it would be like saying they should have prevented the first World War. There is no "right or wrong" about things that are impossible for us to do.

So yes. Total agreement here.



fatgrllvr said:


> normal or abnormal,



"Normal" is just a concept based on information gathered from statistics. We determine what 50+% of the population agrees with, and whatever that is, we call it "normal." However, lots of strange, bizarre and evil things have ended up getting those few extra percentage points, and it's always been that way. I suspect it's because the rich and powerful have a lot of sway over what other people think; especially now, with the media being everywhere, but regardless, the important point is this; "normal" is not a quality that individual people possess. If you took them out of society and examined them intently and earnestly, you would never find that they had a quality of "normality." It only exists in relation to other human beings, and therefore isn't really a thing that belongs to the person.

So yes. Total agreement again.



fatgrllvr said:


> If you choose to call FA-ism a fetish, then knock yourself out - it's just a word. But to be fair, you should then regard attraction to thin women with big boobs, or thin women with small boobs, or an orientation toward _any_ specific physical type, as just another fetish.



I'm of the camp that says that words have real meanings, and that straying from those meanings is a crime against those words. This is the tack I must take with regard to the word "fetish." As a word, it refers to only two things. Inanimate objects, and *sexual* attractions to things that are *not specifically sex.* Yes, a person who is sexually attracted to fatness has a fetish, in that sense, and as you point out, so do people attracted to large/small breasts (which are also not specifically sex,) but the term "fat admirer," or my preferred "fat appreciator," doesn't even imply an overt sexual attraction as such. I was an FA when I was 4, because I associated softness with comfort, and for no other reason. I didn't have a fetish back then, because I didn't have sexual feelings.

I keep getting the impression that lots of people just call FAs fetishists because it's easier than trying to defend their real problems with FAs, which are not rational in the slightest, but in any case, my point is that it's totally possible for whole groups of FAs to exist who just love, love, love fatness, but not really in a sexual way, and those kinds of FAs would totally not even have fetishes.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 11, 2017)

TwoSwords, we seem to be in complete agreement here, including on your observation about "normality." (I also liked your Jan. 2017 post in the Asperger's thread.)

Your statement about your not-necessarily-sexual attraction to fat people in general got me thinking. My own attraction to fat is highly sexual and restricted to women - a man's fatness has no effect on me, positive or negative. Now I'm trying to figure out why that is. (I doubt I'll succeed, however; I'm trying to think logically about something that almost certainly isn't logical.)


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## landshark (Sep 11, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> TwoSwords, we seem to be in complete agreement here, including on your observation about "normality." (I also liked your Jan. 2017 post in the Asperger's thread.)
> 
> Your statement about your not-necessarily-sexual attraction to fat people in general got me thinking. My own attraction to fat is highly sexual and restricted to women - *a man's fatness has no effect on me, positive or negative. Now I'm trying to figure out why that is.* (I doubt I'll succeed, however; I'm trying to think logically about something that almost certainly isn't logical.)



my guess is it has to do with being straight? You can't force sexual attraction if it's not there. I have a profound appreciation for "classical" male beauty. Michelangelo's David for example. In fact that's sort of the standard I hold myself to. But that appreciation doesn't translate to sexual attraction. Not. At. All. I like women. My guess is you do too. No need to overthink that!


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 11, 2017)

Okay, Happily_Married, you're right. (When I'm not overthinking, I'm underthinking.)


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## TwoSwords (Sep 13, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> TwoSwords, we seem to be in complete agreement here, including on your observation about "normality." (I also liked your Jan. 2017 post in the Asperger's thread.)
> 
> Your statement about your not-necessarily-sexual attraction to fat people in general got me thinking. My own attraction to fat is highly sexual and restricted to women - a man's fatness has no effect on me, positive or negative. Now I'm trying to figure out why that is. (I doubt I'll succeed, however; I'm trying to think logically about something that almost certainly isn't logical.)



I'm able to recognize the beauty of many things I'm not attracted to. A waterfall or a sunset, for example. Frankly, I think recognition of beauty and attraction are separate things (though they frequently correlate,) so you won't always find them in the same place.

In my case, I do find fat men to be more pleasant to look at than thin ones, but I don't find them attractive in a sexual way, because I'm straight. So beauty doesn't always imply sexual attraction. That's part of my point.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 13, 2017)

Duly noted, TwoSwords. I just find it curious that fat on a woman attracts me, whereas fat anywhere else doesn't affect me one way or the other. 

Both sexual attraction and concepts of beauty are highly relative to the individual (contrary to society's idiot memes) and, of course, only overlap in the sexual arena. (If I were sexually attracted to everything I find beautiful, I'd have died of exhaustion shortly after hitting puberty.)

My father once told me I'm a master at stating the obvious. I apparently find it necessary to prove him right at every opportunity.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 13, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> Duly noted, TwoSwords. I just find it curious that fat on a woman attracts me, whereas fat anywhere else doesn't affect me one way or the other.



Yes. I suppose that like most of the data of our experiences as human beings, it is curious and interesting how these strange (meaning, all) emotions work.


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## BigElectricKat (Sep 14, 2017)

bigmac said:


> With regard to weight -- I've enjoyed having sex with very large women -- however, when it came to longer term relationships my primal brain and conscious brain reached a compromise -- mostly mid-sized BBWs.



This line made me crack up at my desk this morning! "midsized BBWs" had me envision browsing around an auto dealership but instead of cars it was women of all shapes, sizes, and colors. *I'm NOT dogging you on this. It struck me in a funny way but I assure you that I'm NOT making fun*:bow:

But seriously, this brings up a good point. Even within the FA community, there are preferences. Some like their partner to be a certain size, shape, weight, and even level of mobility. I find it extremely interesting.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 14, 2017)

I think the variations in body size and configuration preferences within the FA community are just another illustration of the fact that there are no absolute standards of beauty. (Sorry, Plato.) Each individual has his or her own orientations and preferences; that's how it is in nature, and that's how it should be. Unfortunately, our "culture" is obsessed with forcing all of us to accept one limited and rigid prototype. 

Those who equate FA orientation to fetishism must acknowledge that men who worship beauty contestants are the ultimate fetishists. Their feminine ideal is a thin, barely post-adolescent woman with a highly specific facial structure. Compare this to the variety of women that virtually any FA would find attractive, and then tell me who has the "fetish."

Anyway, isn't it past time to get rid of (so-called) beauty pageants? They're insulting to the vast majority of women who don't fit the pageant profile even though they may be superior in any or all respects. They also insult the intelligence and taste of every person who doesn't regard the pageant stereotype as any sort of feminine ideal.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 16, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> Anyway, isn't it past time to get rid of (so-called) beauty pageants? They're insulting to the vast majority of women who don't fit the pageant profile even though they may be superior in any or all respects. They also insult the intelligence and taste of every person who doesn't regard the pageant stereotype as any sort of feminine ideal.



The problem with beauty pageants is that it's basically impossible to judge them objectively. If pageants were run on firm criteria, pertaining to the amount of care and effort a woman put into her appearance, I'd have no problem with them at all. Instead, they're just a loudspeaker for the pushy majority.

I played a game once that had a sort of human beauty pageant in it, and entrants were judged on hairstyle, smile and laugh, all of which can be done just as well by any kind of person. I feel something similar could be done in reality, to give people a chance to show off their ability to be charming, without necessarily treating one group of people as though their type of beauty is less legitimate than another.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 16, 2017)

(From TwoSwords): "The problem with beauty pageants is that it's basically impossible to judge them objectively. If pageants were run on firm criteria, pertaining to the amount of care and effort a woman put into her appearance, I'd have no problem with them at all. Instead, they're just a loudspeaker for the pushy majority.

"I played a game once that had a sort of human beauty pageant in it, and entrants were judged on hairstyle, smile and laugh, all of which can be done just as well by any kind of person. I feel something similar could be done in reality, to give people a chance to show off their ability to be charming, without necessarily treating one group of people as though their type of beauty is less legitimate than another.[End Quote]"

It's hard for me to see how any sort of beauty pageant wouldn't end up creating specific standards that would denigrate everyone who didn't fit them. I do like your idea about a "charm pageant." To make it non-sexist, it would have to include men, which could be pretty funny. (I'd probably be disqualified, since the hairstyle criterion implies that the contestant would need actual hair.)


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## TwoSwords (Sep 16, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> It's hard for me to see how any sort of beauty pageant wouldn't end up creating specific standards that would denigrate everyone who didn't fit them. I do like your idea about a "charm pageant." To make it non-sexist, it would have to include men, which could be pretty funny. (I'd probably be disqualified, since the hairstyle criterion implies that the contestant would need actual hair.)



Not necessarily. The sleek, hairless look can be a very fetching hairstyle. Just check out how it looks on Mister Clean, Lex Luthor or Saitama.

And even if the contest in some way implies a need for actual hairs, there's always wigs, I suppose.

"Beauty" is quite a pretty little philosophical problem in its own right. As much as the majority would love to convince us all that their understanding of beauty is just "correct," there's no good evidence to support that. Beauty is that which, when seen, pleases, and if some people are pleased by different things, that means that different things are beautiful for different people.

But is beauty a real thing? If it is, how many forms of beauty, if any, really exist? As I see it, the topic of real beauty has two possible outcomes; all or nothing. By this I mean that either all things have a real beauty of their own, or nothing is actually beautiful. I'm inclined more towards the former than the latter; that there are many kinds of beauty that I just can't appreciate, but they are still forms of beauty.

Man, do I love philosophy!


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 16, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> As I see it, the topic of real beauty has two possible outcomes; all or nothing. By this I mean that either all things have a real beauty of their own, or nothing is actually beautiful.
> 
> Man, do I love philosophy!



I'm inclined to think that both outcomes are true. Anything can be beautiful to someone, so all things have a beauty of their own within the total pool of humanity. If there's no absolute standard of beauty, than nothing can be said to be absolutely beautiful.

Cool - a fellow philosophy nerd!


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## Lastminute.Tom (Sep 18, 2017)

I always thought you imprint your sexual identity around your first orgasm although I now suspect it might be two stages as you can masturbate as an infant until your parents (usually) teach you to be ashamed of touching yourself so maybe you imprint some of it then and then again when you have a wet dream or discover masturbation again at a time when you're able to ejaculate.

My first "intentional" ejaculation I can remember finding a wet t-shirt video to watch as the bouncing breasts were the closest thing to jiggly fat girls, I then decided to channel my love of fat women into a love of large breasts as this seemed a socially acceptable form of preference, when I was young I would draw pictures of impossibly large women to snuggle with, I had no real concept of sex, when the pictures were found I was made to feel ashamed but when my drawings of large breasted women were found my Dad was happy, but I still wanted to look at any ssbbw porn I could find I just had to make sure I wasn't caught.

When I spoke to my Dad about this years later he didn't even remember, the whole time I had been carrying what I thought was my fathers shame in his son for being attracted to who he was attracted to, its only recently with my financé that I've been able to get passed the shame about being attracted to her sexy fat form, I'm slowly starting to be able to accept my own bhm status soon I might have the courage to post a few pics


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## loopytheone (Sep 18, 2017)

Lastminute.Tom said:


> *I always thought you imprint your sexual identity around your first orgasm although I now suspect it might be two stages as you can masturbate as an infant until your parents (usually) teach you to be ashamed of touching yourself so maybe you imprint some of it then and then again when you have a wet dream or discover masturbation again at a time when you're able to ejaculate*.
> 
> My first "intentional" ejaculation I can remember finding a wet t-shirt video to watch as the bouncing breasts were the closest thing to jiggly fat girls, I then decided to channel my love of fat women into a love of large breasts as this seemed a socially acceptable form of preference, when I was young I would draw pictures of impossibly large women to snuggle with, I had no real concept of sex, when the pictures were found I was made to feel ashamed but when my drawings of large breasted women were found my Dad was happy, but I still wanted to look at any ssbbw porn I could find I just had to make sure I wasn't caught.
> 
> When I spoke to my Dad about this years later he didn't even remember, the whole time I had been carrying what I thought was my fathers shame in his son for being attracted to who he was attracted to, its only recently with my financé that I've been able to get passed the shame about being attracted to her sexy fat form, I'm slowly starting to be able to accept my own bhm status soon I might have the courage to post a few pics



First off, that's a really interesting take on things, thanks for sharing. :happy: A lot of FA seem to start with just saying they like big boobs. Makes me wonder how many people that claim to like big boobs are closet FA.

I would disagree with the part I've highlighted though. Due to medical reasons, I have always been unable to orgasm yet my love of fat people has always been there and always been strong. I think it's probably too complex a thing to reduce it to one or two events in a persons life.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 18, 2017)

Lastminute.Tom said:


> I always thought you imprint your sexual identity around your first orgasm although I now suspect it might be two stages as you can masturbate as an infant until your parents (usually) teach you to be ashamed of touching yourself so maybe you imprint some of it then and then again when you have a wet dream or discover masturbation again at a time when you're able to ejaculate.



Your "two stage" theory stirred up my first memory of sexuality. When I was about three years old, I saw a couple of fat teenage girls giggling on the sidewalk outside my apartment window. The sight made me so horny that I essentially humped a pillow, although no orgasm was involved. (As you can see, I was a charming child.) After that, I was fascinated by girls with fat thighs, bellies, and butts, although it didn't really become overwhelming until I hit puberty, and forever thereafter. 

Over the years, the same sexuality that once was considered part of my being a strong, lusty male has come to brand me as a dirty old man (if only in thought). Time is a funny thing.


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## quantumbits (Sep 18, 2017)

Brizzledude said:


> Hi all. First post here.
> 
> I'm afraid I've never been someone who analyses things, or myself, too deeply.
> 
> ...


I've thoght about this a lot. I'm still a virgin. But I think I might go with the thin one because I feel guilty liking bigger woman. And relationship shouldn't be about looks, it should be about personality. If you can beat the looks early on, then later if something happens you're more prepared for it. The side benefit is thin girls can do hikes and physical activity more!

Thinking back on all the girls and ladies I've had crushes on, they were thin and fat up through college until present time. But even in highschool there was a girl I thought was the definition of sexy. This girl was a BBW on the lighter side, so still fat by society's standards. Back then I didn't think of her as BBW. I still think that body size is sexiest. I think I was born with it, or had it early. Maybe it's somehow linked to Jessica in Roger Rabbit or something, except not as narrow--esp. in the middle. What boy didn't get turned on by her? I'm thinking maybe it was stuff I saw on TV. My mom was overweight, not severely. I've read we usually seek spouses who look like our mothers. This can't be true for everyone. My brother has a very skinny wife and he thought she was the hottest thing on Earth.

Just trying to think positively. this world makes me tired with all its yarnball conflicts.

EDIT: I got itnerested in the Jessica thing and googled. I found something mildly funny. It has some fat hate, and I don't want to care anymore. The wolrd is filled with s*** like that and I just try to go with teh blows now:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsjwrA_Oo18[/ame]


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## quantumbits (Sep 18, 2017)

Lastminute.Tom said:


> I always thought you imprint your sexual identity around your first orgasm although I now suspect it might be two stages as you can masturbate as an infant until your parents (usually) teach you to be ashamed of touching yourself so maybe you imprint some of it then and then again when you have a wet dream or discover masturbation again at a time when you're able to ejaculate.
> 
> My first "intentional" ejaculation I can remember finding a wet t-shirt video to watch as the bouncing breasts were the closest thing to jiggly fat girls, I then decided to channel my love of fat women into a love of large breasts as this seemed a socially acceptable form of preference, when I was young I would draw pictures of impossibly large women to snuggle with, I had no real concept of sex, when the pictures were found I was made to feel ashamed but when my drawings of large breasted women were found my Dad was happy, but I still wanted to look at any ssbbw porn I could find I just had to make sure I wasn't caught.
> 
> When I spoke to my Dad about this years later he didn't even remember, the whole time I had been carrying what I thought was my fathers shame in his son for being attracted to who he was attracted to, its only recently with my financé that I've been able to get passed the shame about being attracted to her sexy fat form, I'm slowly starting to be able to accept my own bhm status soon I might have the courage to post a few pics


Yep. I've pondered if fetish for large breasts or butts is in fact fetish for fat, but in a socially acceptable form, or maybe a premature version? Maybe some people never develop it further and never like BBW types.

Stretching it that far might make some people uncomfortable. Sorry for posting.


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## quantumbits (Sep 19, 2017)

bigmac said:


> *snip*
> 
> I once called a 500 lb casual partner "my sexy fat girl" she broke into tears and wouldn't talk to me for a week. Going forward I kept my comments about a partner's body to size to myself. Whenever guys articulate their carnal thoughts they are at risk of being labeled a fetishist or objectifier of women. Best to keep your mouth shut an enjoy your partners abundance in silence.


You're exactly right. Which is why I think this is a lost cause.

I was once eating some tasty and an older gentleman in his 60's whispered to me "Hey, you like hte thick woman too? So soft. Their big hips, you can never get enough!?" Those might not be the exact words, but it's the idea. He's the outspoken type of person who has trouble controlling what he says, despite otherwise being friendly and harmless. He was referring to the overweight young lady with her friends, maybe becuase I glanced over at her. I didn't tell him I agreed, just blushed.

Just log off. Don't come back. Live your life. Actions matter, not words. This is a waste of time.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 19, 2017)

quantumbits said:


> Just log off. Don't come back. Live your life. Actions matter, not words. This is a waste of time.



I'm afraid it's not that simple for some of us.

I'm not here because I'm hoping to get a date. (By the way, I think you're right that guys are unfairly punished for sharing how they really feel.) I'm here because I need some way to express what goes on in my heart, and darn it, I'm just not getting those opportunities in my life, for the reasons you both state.

To me, emotions that go unexpressed are hazardous, because they build and build, until they explode out of me in uncontrollable outbursts, unless I share them with someone, somewhere. Better here, with people I'll probably never meet in real life. But I still could never even imagine dating a girl/woman who didn't agree with me on this... strongly. In short, I'm here because in living my life, I have found it wanting.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 19, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I'm afraid it's not that simple for some of us.
> 
> I'm not here because I'm hoping to get a date. (By the way, I think you're right that guys are unfairly punished for sharing how they really feel.) I'm here because I need some way to express what goes on in my heart, and darn it, I'm just not getting those opportunities in my life, for the reasons you both state.
> 
> To me, emotions that go unexpressed are hazardous, because they build and build, until they explode out of me in uncontrollable outbursts, unless I share them with someone, somewhere. Better here, with people I'll probably never meet in real life. But I still could never even imagine dating a girl/woman who didn't agree with me on this... strongly. In short, I'm here because in living my life, I have found it wanting.



I totally agree. I just started posting here this month, for the same reasons.


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## waldo (Sep 19, 2017)

quantumbits said:


> You're exactly right. Which is why I think this is a lost cause.
> 
> I was once eating some tasty and an older gentleman in his 60's whispered to me "Hey, you like hte thick woman too? So soft. Their big hips, you can never get enough!?" Those might not be the exact words, but it's the idea. He's the outspoken type of person who has trouble controlling what he says, despite otherwise being friendly and harmless. He was referring to the overweight young lady with her friends, maybe becuase I glanced over at her. I didn't tell him I agreed, just blushed.
> 
> Just log off. Don't come back. Live your life. Actions matter, not words. This is a waste of time.



Think about what you said. The post to which you responded mentioned the guy's 500 lb ! girlfriend. So if he were to just keep quiet and go about his business not saying anything about his woman's size to her or anyone else: what are people (especially her) supposed to take from this? How can you be with a SSBBW and not come forward as an FA? This would be a monumental level of disingenuousness and unfair to both partners in the relationship. If a fat woman can't handle her intimate partner commenting on her body, he needs to find someone who can. Certainly FAs need to filter very methodically what we say and do and be tactful/respectful. But I strongly disagree that we should go about our business in a sort of stealth mode where we partner up to a fat woman but never properly address our 'FAness' (many relationships do occur like this and can lead to the women being perplexed at their husband's angst when they lose weight).

Now if we establish that it is proper for us to be forthright about being an FA (or even if not but we want to live our life with a fat partner), we must deal with all the judgements society heaps on us. And for those who think it is no big deal: why is it that we see no FAs who are stars in the entertainment industry and other high profile areas like pro sports? Maybe it really is true that all FAs are scientists, engineers and other techies.

As much as it can be frustrating to feel like we are simply talking and accomplishing nothing, it's better than being isolated.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 19, 2017)

waldo said:


> Think about what you said. The post to which you responded mentioned the guy's 500 lb ! girlfriend. So if he were to just keep quiet and go about his business not saying anything about his woman's size to her or anyone else: what are people (especially her) supposed to take from this? How can you be with a SSBBW and not come forward as an FA? This would be a monumental level of disingenuousness and unfair to both partners in the relationship. If a fat woman can't handle her intimate partner commenting on her body, he needs to find someone who can. Certainly FAs need to filter very methodically what we say and do and be tactful/respectful. But I strongly disagree that we should go about our business in a sort of stealth mode where we partner up to a fat woman but never properly address our 'FAness' (many relationships do occur like this and can lead to the women being perplexed at their husband's angst when they lose weight).
> 
> Now if we establish that it is proper for us to be forthright about being an FA (or even if not but we want to live our life with a fat partner), we must deal with all the judgements society heaps on us.



I agree with basically all of this; especially the part about how disingenuous it is to go into relationships in "stealth mode." In fact, I'd go further and say that it's like setting a land mine under your relationship, because neither person can sympathize with the other on this important issue. This therefore limits the depth and intimacy of the relationship in a way that goes far beyond mere physical concerns or attractions.


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## waldo (Sep 21, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I agree with basically all of this; especially the part about how disingenuous it is to go into relationships in "stealth mode." In fact, *I'd go further and say that it's like setting a land mine under your relationship, because neither person can sympathize with the other on this important issue. This therefore limits the depth and intimacy of the relationship in a way that goes far beyond mere physical concerns or attractions.*



BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! In an ideal scenario, the FA (male or female) and their mate (a multiple of combinations if we include homosexual relationships) share a unique issue regarding the general disdain for fat people (and fat admirers) in our society. This is an issue that should ideally pull the parties in this relationship closer together (It's us against the world!), but in reality it does not often play out this way. Other issues that can waylay any relationship often tend to get in the way and quickly render this issue to the backburner.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 23, 2017)

waldo said:


> BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! In an ideal scenario, the FA (male or female) and their mate (a multiple of combinations if we include homosexual relationships) share a unique issue regarding the general disdain for fat people (and fat admirers) in our society. *This is an issue that should ideally pull the parties in this relationship closer together (It's us against the world!),* but in reality it does not often play out this way.



Oh, my word. I could go on for paragraphs and paragraphs about this ridiculousness (from logical, personal, emotional, moral and philosophical perspectives,) but it makes me want to go around punching walls when I see someone online, saying there aren't enough guys around who love fat girls. Let me just be subtle and point out that no FA hates fat women, while many fat women hate FAs. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

As I said, I could keep going for paragraphs, but the best way to attract company is not to hate and punish them when they show up.


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## waldo (Sep 23, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Oh, my word. I could go on for paragraphs and paragraphs about this ridiculousness (from logical, personal, emotional, moral and philosophical perspectives,) but it makes me want to go around punching walls when I see someone online, saying there aren't enough guys around who love fat girls. Let me just be subtle and point out that no FA hates fat women, while many fat women hate FAs. You can draw your own conclusions from that.
> 
> As I said, I could keep going for paragraphs, but the best way to attract company is not to hate and punish them when they show up.



I am scratching my head trying to understand what you are saying here At first glance I assume it is the part of my reply to you which you highlighted in bold that you consider ridiculousness. Maybe my wording was a little strong. The idea maybe is that it's not 'us against the world' as it is we mutually support each other to overcome some prejudice against us either for our physical appearance or beliefs/desires that fall outside societal 'norms'. 

But then when you say "Let me just be subtle and point out that no FA hates fat women, while many fat women hate FAs. You can draw your own conclusions from that.", I am led to assume you mean that the problem with fat acceptance is that FAs have always had a hard time being accepted by the fat people themselves and it has undermined our ability to join forces to uplift our collective selves. And more specifically, fat women have a hard time accepting the fact that some men are attracted to them partly because they are fat rather than in spite of it. You don't need to go on for paragraphs (1 or 2 would suffice), but could you please elaborate a little on what you were trying to convey?


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## TwoSwords (Sep 23, 2017)

waldo said:


> I am scratching my head trying to understand what you are saying here



My apologies. I should have been clearer. I meant the word "ridiculousness" to refer to the treatment of fat-loving people as in some way less legitimate as a whole, and by extension, the tendency of fat people to stigmatize themselves, and construct social habits that prevent themselves from enjoying the appreciation of others (something that thinner people seem to have no trouble with.) The first compliment I ever gave to a girl was met with the phrase "I hate people who like people like me." The moral of the story is that some people are mentally-disturbed, so watch out for that.

However, this seems to be a common theme through a lot of the internet fat community, and a lot of FAs like myself seem to end up jaded and alone; especially those who speak out online about it. It seems to me that some FAs have done everything they could to normalize fatness as a part of normal loving relationships, but far, far too many women just don't seem to want that; especially those who would be most benefited by this change.



waldo said:


> And more specifically, *fat women have a hard time accepting the fact that some men are attracted to them partly because they are fat rather than in spite of it.* You don't need to go on for paragraphs (1 or 2 would suffice), but could you please elaborate a little on what you were trying to convey?



Gladly. I have seen this on occasion, of course. However, I'm not sure what precise meaning you mean for these highlighted words to convey. The word "accept" could mean one of two things in this context. Either it could mean...

Believe
or
Learn to enjoy/live with.

Now, while some women may still have a hard time believing in FAs, (and some men too,) in general, I think internet-savvy fat women understand that FAs exist, and are drawn to them, in part, because of their size/shape/texture as a fat person. The problem would be with that second meaning of "accept." Many of them seem to have assimilated a sort of invasive, self-destructive program from the culture, which causes them to see this form of attraction as illegitimate, and therefore to see other people in a negative light, just for being attracted to them. However, they still look at themselves as fully deserving of love, and therefore are on the lookout for a person who can love them in *complete isolation* from any physical attraction. In short, someone who's not a man.

Various factors feed into this, but I've been studying this self-destructive habit for years, off and on, and I'm fully convinced that no man or group of men can solve in on their own, because it's, frankly, not their problem to solve. We suffer under it, but we're not able to fully correct it.

I hope a million people don't jump down my throat for saying this, but I just have to say it. This is the only conclusion that fits the facts, as I see them.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 23, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Now, while some women may still have a hard time believing in FAs, (and some men too,) in general, I think internet-savvy fat women understand that FAs exist, and are drawn to them, in part, because of their size/shape/texture as a fat person. The problem would be with that second meaning of "accept." Many of them seem to have assimilated a sort of invasive, self-destructive program from the culture, which causes them to see this form of attraction as illegitimate, and therefore to see other people in a negative light, just for being attracted to them. However, they still look at themselves as fully deserving of love, and therefore are on the lookout for a person who can love them in *complete isolation* from any physical attraction. In short, someone who's not a man.



I've noted the same thing, over and over again. Fat women who hate their fatness want men who are not physically attracted to their bodies. In another world, a man might be able to develop an attraction to someone whose physical attributes turned him off, but the vast majority of us don't live in that world. (I'm not talking about existing relationships where one's already beloved significant other undergoes a physical change. In that case, the existing love could hold the relationship together.) 

I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to limit their relationships to people who aren't physically attracted to them, but there it is. I think FA-hating fat women may outnumber the ones who accept us, although I have no hard evidence to back up my suspicion.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 23, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to limit their relationships to people who aren't physically attracted to them, but there it is. I think FA-hating fat women may outnumber the ones who accept us, although I have no hard evidence to back up my suspicion.



Well, as I said, it's self-destructive. I've looked at this tendency from every angle, and there doesn't seem to be any constructive or helpful reasoning behind it, that could in any way benefit them. At first, I assumed it was like Stockholm Syndrome; defending your tormentor because of how badly you've been abused, but of course, there are other factors, such as those whose personal distaste for fatness is such a strong emotion that it overrides their desire for a relationship, those who just don't follow the chain of reasoning to its end (many,) or certain cultural movements, which encourage women to view men as something they aren't.

As for proving where the majority of people fall on this scale, I don't really trust statistics that much. I find they often just use cooked-up numbers to try to convince people of some questionable claim in the absence of strong logic, observable or mathematical evidence, or authentic scientific proof. However, in this case, if even one girl, anywhere, was biased against people who could feel attracted to her, it would be too many. Relationship decisions should be made on the basis of good reasons, and there just is no good reason for trying to de-legitimize FAs as a whole.


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## waldo (Sep 24, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> My apologies. I should have been clearer. I meant the word "ridiculousness" to refer to the treatment of fat-loving people as in some way less legitimate as a whole, and by extension, the tendency of fat people to stigmatize themselves, and construct social habits that prevent themselves from enjoying the appreciation of others (something that thinner people seem to have no trouble with.) The first compliment I ever gave to a girl was met with the phrase "I hate people who like people like me." The moral of the story is that some people are mentally-disturbed, so watch out for that.
> 
> However, this seems to be a common theme through a lot of the internet fat community, and a lot of FAs like myself seem to end up jaded and alone; especially those who speak out online about it. It seems to me that some FAs have done everything they could to normalize fatness as a part of normal loving relationships, but far, far too many women just don't seem to want that; especially those who would be most benefited by this change.
> 
> ...



It is a difficult conundrum with which we FAs must contend. Remember that fat people do not 'stigmatize' themselves - it is society as a whole that stigmatizes them RELENTLESSLY! Any fat people who care to research the issue will have to conclude that there are more than just a few FAs out there (all the FA-centric porn/erotica online should be enough to do that). The tricky part is for them to, as you say, "Learn to enjoy/live with" the situation of getting into a relationship with an FA. Please remember that many guys who fall under the category of FA are NOT honorable men and use fat women for sex without wanting to have a full relationship. Others may have a more significant relationship but with an attitude of superiority like the fat partner should be thankful to have this guy who actually desires them. Or they treat their women quite shabbily with too much focus on what she can do for him - just taking advantage of 'love-starved' fat women (hey baby, how much weight can you gain for me this next 6 months?). So fat people (women in particular) often have their wall put up that you must, as an FA, overcome. Obviously your best bet is to look for women who are more accepting of themselves as a fat person. Even then, you need to take it slow and really make conscious effort to show them you are interested in them for more than just their luscious body.

When you say: " *However, they still look at themselves as fully d**eserving of love, and therefore are on the lookout for a person who can love them in complete isolation from any physical attraction. In short, someone who's not a man."*

 understand that this is an issue that unfortunately extends beyond the FA/BBW community, although we seem to be bearing the worst of it. Thebrand of radical feminism that currently permeates our society preaches that men who are attracted to women for their appearance are evil objectifiers to be shunned. Only men who profess to love their woman 'no matter how she looks' are worthy of love according to the modern feminist manifesto.


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## loopytheone (Sep 24, 2017)

I think you guys have hit the nail on the head when you talk about women that hate themselves for being fat. That is the issue here, I think. 

The problem is, if you hate yourself, you can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. Because they love something you hate, and it leads to resentment eventually. I know that from experience. 

As such, I'd advise anyone to stay away from self-hating people when looking for a relationship. That's what women mean when we say that confidence is sexy; you don't have to be arrogant or cocky, but we want you to love and accept yourself. I really think that a person who hates themselves needs to be on their own and really work on their own issues before being in a relationship. Sadly it is far too common that people of all genders end up hating themselves for some reason, and that is so sad.

Of course, that's only one group of women that don't like FAs. The other group of women who don't like FAs are those that have either had very negative experiences with them, or heard a lot from people who have.


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## waldo (Sep 24, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> I think you guys have hit the nail on the head when you talk about women that hate themselves for being fat. That is the issue here, I think.
> 
> The problem is, if you hate yourself, you can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. Because they love something you hate, and it leads to resentment eventually. I know that from experience.
> 
> ...



Nice post!

Here is an interesting thing to consider: is an earnest, well-meaning FA likely to have a better chance of cultivating a healthy relationship with a fat woman who dislikes FAs because she doesn't believe their attraction to her fat body is legitimate but really has minimal or no experience with FAs (the self-loathing due to societal conditioning) OR those who have been involved with FAs previously and burned?

I hesitate to 'make excuses' for 'closet FAs' who operate in the shadows, but imagine a society where their attraction to fat women has no stigma attached to it. We would obviously assume they would generally behave much differently. As such, this is why I made the (rather outrageous) statement on the other thread that acceptance of fat admiration by society would do so much to push fat acceptance over the finish line. It really seems like a chicken and egg situation. The two should feed off each other, but what is logical and what actually occurs are sadly very often quite different.


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## loopytheone (Sep 24, 2017)

waldo said:


> Nice post!
> 
> Here is an interesting thing to consider: is an earnest, well-meaning FA likely to have a better chance of cultivating a healthy relationship with a fat woman who dislikes FAs because she doesn't believe their attraction to her fat body is legitimate but really has minimal or no experience with FAs (the self-loathing due to societal conditioning) OR those who have been involved with FAs previously and burned?
> 
> I hesitate to 'make excuses' for 'closet FAs' who operate in the shadows, but imagine a society where their attraction to fat women has no stigma attached to it. We would obviously assume they would generally behave much differently. As such, this is why I made the (rather outrageous) statement on the other thread that acceptance of fat admiration by society would do so much to push fat acceptance over the finish line. It really seems like a chicken and egg situation. The two should feed off each other, but what is logical and what actually occurs are sadly very often quite different.



I don't think I quite understand what you are trying to say with your first paragraph? I'm a little confused. 

I'm not sure I explained one of the details I'm trying to say very well, because it is quite difficult to get across. But there is a difference between genuine self hatred and low self-esteem as a result of societal pressure. Self hatred comes from what the person themselves thinks and is internal; "I hate myself, including being fat/short/tall/thin/etc etc". Low self-esteem comes as a result of what other people/society pressures you into thinking; "People find me unattractive because I am fat". For people that hate themselves, no amount of reassurance or attraction is going to change their base thought, that they hate themselves, and that makes them unsuitable partners. For people with low self esteem, being told "Hey, people are wrong, you are attractive and worthy of love" is going to help, because the problem was never with how they saw themselves, but with how they were told other people saw them. I think all fat people have fallen into that second category at some point in their lives because of the way society is set up. Like, I never hated myself, but for a long time growing up I believed that people would find my fat body unattractive because that was all I had ever been told. Does that difference between the two things make sense?

I'm in a pretty interesting position on this one, because I'm both a BBW and an FA. I know the pain of being in love with a person that hates themselves no matter how much you adore them, but I also know how it feels to be the person constantly mocked and attacked based on my appearance. There is prejudice against FAs for a number of reasons, but that doesn't even come close to matching the constant, never ending pressure and hatred you go through in every aspect of your life as a fat person. FAs have one issue where that prejudice affects them - relationships - whereas fat people have to deal with that same problem in every aspect of their lives, from friends, family, health, jobs etc etc as well as in relationships. The thing is, if fat people were suddenly accepted in society, then FAs would be to - it would be seen as a harmless preference like hair colour or height - but if FAs were suddenly considered acceptable in society, it wouldn't solve all (or even most) of the issues fat people have to deal with. We'd still be seen as unhealthy, poor workers, having no self control etc etc even if it was suddenly acceptable to find us attractive.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 24, 2017)

This is the best discussion I've had in months. Here we go...



waldo said:


> It is a difficult conundrum with which we FAs must contend. Remember that fat people do not 'stigmatize' themselves - it is society as a whole that stigmatizes them RELENTLESSLY!



When I used the term "stigmatize themselves" I meant that they copy/paste the societal stigma into their own thoughts and feelings, in a way that isn't necessary. It's perfectly possible to reject societal norms, rather than rejecting yourself. The latter is self-defeating, in fact.



waldo said:


> The tricky part is for them to, as you say, "Learn to enjoy/live with" the situation of getting into a relationship with an FA. Please remember that many guys who fall under the category of FA are NOT honorable men and use fat women for sex without wanting to have a full relationship.



I've read stories about people like that (both in and out of FA-town,) and the solution is not to hate FAs, but to hate dishonorable conduct. It also helps to learn how to recognize it (I call it "immaturity") very early on. Here's a tip; look for signs that he wants to know about your interests, and ask yourself "does he sometimes want to do the things I want to do?"

Men who request sex *at all* are people to be wary of as well. Sex is not something to play around with. It's freaking dangerous, like a bonfire, and while there is a place for it in a relationship, it should be the *culmination* of the relationship, not its *goal* or a means to advance it. These issues are common to all relationships of today, and I blame the last couple generations for failing to teach these important social skills to their children.

However, none of these concerns are FA-specific, and none of them, therefore, should encourage stigma against FAs in general.



waldo said:


> Others may have a more significant relationship but with an attitude of superiority like the fat partner should be thankful to have this guy who actually desires them.



Anyone who is loved should be thankful for that love. There's nothing special about that.



waldo said:


> Or they treat their women quite shabbily with too much focus on what she can do for him - just taking advantage of 'love-starved' fat women (hey baby, how much weight can you gain for me this next 6 months?).



Sounds like relationship immaturity again; the excessive focus on selfishly taking, rather than giving. As I said, there are ways to detect these people.



waldo said:


> So fat people (women in particular) often have their wall put up that you must, as an FA, overcome.



They explained this in a movie I watched once. Women who put up walls (rather than merely watching out for certain behaviors, as I suggested,) will only discourage good men, and fail to discourage lousy ones. When a man is only concerned about getting what he wants, he just sees the wall as an obstacle to his goal, and will set to work on breaking it down. However, when a nice man, who respects the woman's agency, encounters a wall, he just says "Alright. I guess she wants to be left alone." And he leaves.



waldo said:


> Obviously your best bet is to look for women who are more accepting of themselves as a fat person. Even then, you need to take it slow and really make conscious effort to show them you are interested in them for more than just their luscious body.



Honestly, the thing I want most is a kindred spirit in this area; someone with whom I can share my joys, and who, in her own way, has joys of her own that I too can appreciate. That's not easy to find for some FAs.



waldo said:


> understand that this is an issue that unfortunately extends beyond the FA/BBW community, although we seem to be bearing the worst of it. Thebrand of radical feminism that currently permeates our society preaches that men who are attracted to women for their appearance are evil objectifiers to be shunned. Only men who profess to love their woman 'no matter how she looks' are worthy of love according to the modern feminist manifesto.



Oh, I'm well aware of the factors that cause these problems, and how widespread they are, and yes, I agree that FAs suffer most under them, out of any group I've ever seen. It's just a bad, bad situation, but certainly, it's not a situation that I have ever contributed to. Prejudice is still alive and well in the west.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 24, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> The problem is, if you hate yourself, you can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. Because they love something you hate, and it leads to resentment eventually. I know that from experience.



That is certainly part of the problem; a big part. I agree. Self-hatred is only going to sabotage your future relationships, whether you're a man or a woman. One of my relatives has this very problem.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 24, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> I'm not sure I explained one of the details I'm trying to say very well, because it is quite difficult to get across. But there is a difference between genuine self hatred and low self-esteem as a result of societal pressure. Self hatred comes from what the person themselves thinks and is internal; "I hate myself, including being fat/short/tall/thin/etc etc". Low self-esteem comes as a result of what other people/society pressures you into thinking; "People find me unattractive because I am fat". For people that hate themselves, no amount of reassurance or attraction is going to change their base thought, that they hate themselves, and that makes them unsuitable partners. For people with low self esteem, being told "Hey, people are wrong, you are attractive and worthy of love" is going to help, because the problem was never with how they saw themselves, but with how they were told other people saw them. I think all fat people have fallen into that second category at some point in their lives because of the way society is set up. Like, I never hated myself, but for a long time growing up I believed that people would find my fat body unattractive because that was all I had ever been told. Does that difference between the two things make sense?



Perfectly. I have no problem with people being a little sheepish about the idea of someone loving them (though it is a bit unfortunate.) However, when you compliment someone, and they begin to argue with you, that I see as a sign of self-hatred, and nothing destroys relationship potential quite like that.



loopytheone said:


> I'm in a pretty interesting position on this one, because I'm both a BBW and an FA. I know the pain of being in love with a person that hates themselves no matter how much you adore them, but I also know how it feels to be the person constantly mocked and attacked based on my appearance. There is prejudice against FAs for a number of reasons, but that doesn't even come close to matching the constant, never ending pressure and hatred you go through in every aspect of your life as a fat person. FAs have one issue where that prejudice affects them - relationships - whereas fat people have to deal with that same problem in every aspect of their lives, from friends, family, health, jobs etc etc as well as in relationships. The thing is, if fat people were suddenly accepted in society, then FAs would be to - it would be seen as a harmless preference like hair colour or height - but if FAs were suddenly considered acceptable in society, it wouldn't solve all (or even most) of the issues fat people have to deal with. We'd still be seen as unhealthy, poor workers, having no self control etc etc even if it was suddenly acceptable to find us attractive.



People make more assumptions about fat people, but I've been fat for much of my life, and honestly, it's never bothered me, because I can just laugh it off. As an FA, I can look at the fact that most other people are not FAs, and from that, conclude that I have no reason to concern myself with their opinions on this issue, so when I see evidence that someone is judging me for my weight, I just think, "well, they don't even recognize the obvious beauty of fatness, so who cares what they think?"

I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything, but in the privacy of my own thoughts, I give no quarter whatsoever to fat-hating. I never have.

Maybe being a man makes it different, but for me, being an FA has been a source of much greater consternation than being a fat man. This is because, no matter what else it inhibits, being fat does not limit my ability to express myself in any way. However, whenever I express myself as an FA, I must do so from that perspective, and it's hard to find opportunities to do that without receiving a wave of hate, even in certain places online, where it should be easy to do so.


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## waldo (Sep 24, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> I don't think I quite understand what you are trying to say with your first paragraph? I'm a little confused.
> 
> I'm not sure I explained one of the details I'm trying to say very well, because it is quite difficult to get across. But there is a difference between genuine self hatred and low self-esteem as a result of societal pressure. Self hatred comes from what the person themselves thinks and is internal; "I hate myself, including being fat/short/tall/thin/etc etc". Low self-esteem comes as a result of what other people/society pressures you into thinking; "People find me unattractive because I am fat". For people that hate themselves, no amount of reassurance or attraction is going to change their base thought, that they hate themselves, and that makes them unsuitable partners. For people with low self esteem, being told "Hey, people are wrong, you are attractive and worthy of love" is going to help, because the problem was never with how they saw themselves, but with how they were told other people saw them. I think all fat people have fallen into that second category at some point in their lives because of the way society is set up. Like, I never hated myself, but for a long time growing up I believed that people would find my fat body unattractive because that was all I had ever been told. Does that difference between the two things make sense?
> 
> I'm in a pretty interesting position on this one, because I'm both a BBW and an FA. I know the pain of being in love with a person that hates themselves no matter how much you adore them, but I also know how it feels to be the person constantly mocked and attacked based on my appearance. There is prejudice against FAs for a number of reasons, but that doesn't even come close to matching the constant, never ending pressure and hatred you go through in every aspect of your life as a fat person. FAs have one issue where that prejudice affects them - relationships - whereas fat people have to deal with that same problem in every aspect of their lives, from friends, family, health, jobs etc etc as well as in relationships. The thing is, if fat people were suddenly accepted in society, then FAs would be to - it would be seen as a harmless preference like hair colour or height - but if FAs were suddenly considered acceptable in society, it wouldn't solve all (or even most) of the issues fat people have to deal with. We'd still be seen as unhealthy, poor workers, having no self control etc etc even if it was suddenly acceptable to find us attractive.



OK let me restate it: is it easier to break down the walls of the fat woman who is reluctant to go with an FA due to internalization of society's prejudice against her (and rejects out out of hand that an FAs' interest in her is legit) OR the one who is willing to be self-accepting of herself as a fat person but has has bad experiences with 'shady FAs' and thus believes that the vast majority of these men are NOT stand-up guys and therefore does not give them the benefit of the doubt that they are well-meaning and eager to have a full healthy relationship with her? Set aside those who have taken it to a truly self-loathing situation that you describe.

As far as acceptance of FAs and how it would relate to society's views of fat people in a general sense -you may very well be right that fat people would still be largely unaccepted. However, don't discount that all the prejudices against fat people also relate to the FA. It is much more than just the resistance to our views/feelings on the esthetic aspect of our attraction. Remember we constantly get thrown at us "how can you in good conscience be attracted to someone in an inherently unhealthy state". As an FFA, I assume you well know this reality. As a fat FFA, I would consider you can be the ultimate authority on the various issues related to fat acceptance and FA acceptance. OTOH, with women being much more valued by their appearance, FFA may be seen as having a much different reality than male hetero FAs


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## loopytheone (Sep 25, 2017)

waldo said:


> OK let me restate it: is it easier to break down the walls of the fat woman who is reluctant to go with an FA due to internalization of society's prejudice against her (and rejects out out of hand that an FAs' interest in her is legit) OR the one who is willing to be self-accepting of herself as a fat person but has has bad experiences with 'shady FAs' and thus believes that the vast majority of these men are NOT stand-up guys and therefore does not give them the benefit of the doubt that they are well-meaning and eager to have a full healthy relationship with her? Set aside those who have taken it to a truly self-loathing situation that you describe.
> 
> As far as acceptance of FAs and how it would relate to society's views of fat people in a general sense -you may very well be right that fat people would still be largely unaccepted. However, don't discount that all the prejudices against fat people also relate to the FA. It is much more than just the resistance to our views/feelings on the esthetic aspect of our attraction. Remember we constantly get thrown at us "how can you in good conscience be attracted to someone in an inherently unhealthy state". As an FFA, I assume you well know this reality. As a fat FFA, I would consider you can be the ultimate authority on the various issues related to fat acceptance and FA acceptance. OTOH, with women being much more valued by their appearance, FFA may be seen as having a much different reality than male hetero FAs



I think that's kinda of a difficult question to be honest. I'd say that it would take time and effort in both cases, though for different reasons. If I had to pick one, though, I'd say it would be more difficult to romance a person that had bad experiences with FAs. 

Yeah, I know that we have to deal with those issues too; when I was dating my SSBHM ex I got a lot of comments like that. But the thing is, if society accepted fat people, then FA wouldn't have to deal with those issues either. For instance, if society didn't stereotype fat people as unhealthy, then FA wouldn't have the problem of being judged for being attracted to an 'unhealthy' partner either. Whereas if people kept their negative opinions of fat people but accepted the FA side of it - in this example, still thinking that fat people are unhealthy, but thinking it is okay to be attracted to them anyway - that would solve the FA's problem but not solve the root of the problem for the fat person themselves; society still thinks they are unhealthy. 

Everybody has a different viewpoint and I think they are all valid and important, even those I don't agree with personally. I guess that seeing as I can identify with both sides in terms of being fat and being an FFA, I just wanted to share my opinion too.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 25, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> I think that's kinda of a difficult question to be honest. I'd say that it would take time and effort in both cases, though for different reasons. If I had to pick one, though, I'd say it would be more difficult to romance a person that had bad experiences with FAs.
> 
> Yeah, I know that we have to deal with those issues too; when I was dating my SSBHM ex I got a lot of comments like that. But the thing is, if society accepted fat people, then FA wouldn't have to deal with those issues either. For instance, if society didn't stereotype fat people as unhealthy, then FA wouldn't have the problem of being judged for being attracted to an 'unhealthy' partner either. Whereas if people kept their negative opinions of fat people but accepted the FA side of it - in this example, still thinking that fat people are unhealthy, but thinking it is okay to be attracted to them anyway - that would solve the FA's problem but not solve the root of the problem for the fat person themselves; society still thinks they are unhealthy.
> 
> Everybody has a different viewpoint and I think they are all valid and important, even those I don't agree with personally. I guess that seeing as I can identify with both sides in terms of being fat and being an FFA, I just wanted to share my opinion too.



I agree. The main problem is society's view of fat people, and the mainstream's contempt for FAs is just collateral damage. If you believe that fat people are inherently unhealthy and unattractive (i.e., if you're a bigot), then you pretty much have to believe there's something wrong with anyone who is attracted to them. It would be just about impossible for someone who has no respect for fat people to be okay with FAs.

Being a fat FFA undoubtedly gives you a broader perspective than most of us, which makes your insight particularly helpful. I'm not sure, however, whether the FFA and the FA experiences match up in all respects. Society directs more disrespect toward fat women than it does toward fat men (which doesn't mean fat men aren't discriminated against), and this results in male FAs being held in lower esteem than FFAs.

I think the hierarchy of fat bigotry goes like this: fat women get the most crap; then fat men; then male FAs; then FFAs.


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## Tad (Sep 25, 2017)

As a young teen in the pre-web days, I looked up pretty much everything that my local library listed in their card catalogue under the various categories "Obesity - xxx." This eventually led me to "Fat is a Feminist Issue", which informed me that some men prefer their wife to be fat -- because it would reduce how much attention she got from other men. This was the first thing I'd ever read acknowleding that anyone might prefer a fat partner, so it was pretty discouraging. But some time later it occured to me "Guys might lie, give this as a reason, rather than admit that they are so deviant to the norm that they are attracted to fat women." (I'm sure it wasn't in quite those words, but really probably pretty close, I wasn't familiar with terms like BBW, FA, closeted, or fetish back then).

This was a long time ago, and information is now both more readily available and more varied -- but at the same time there is so much information that often all we get is what the large media outlets are pushing and what we go looking for. At the same time we tend to pick up a lot of our views on the world from those around us at younger ages. Some people will reject those viewpoints, but most internalize them pretty thoroughly*. This means that most people aren't out there looking for viewpoints that disagree with what they absorbed as they grew up. So a lot of people have inherited that viewpoint where the only reason a man would want a fat partner was so she'd be _less _attractive :doh: 


* thank goodness that most do internalize them thoroughly, or we would never have been able to build high density, high functioning societies. And thank goodness that some will reject them, or societies would never have evolved.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 25, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> Yeah, I know that we have to deal with those issues too; when I was dating my SSBHM ex I got a lot of comments like that. But the thing is, if society accepted fat people, then FA wouldn't have to deal with those issues either. For instance, if society didn't stereotype fat people as unhealthy, then FA wouldn't have the problem of being judged for being attracted to an 'unhealthy' partner either. Whereas if people kept their negative opinions of fat people but accepted the FA side of it - in this example, still thinking that fat people are unhealthy, but thinking it is okay to be attracted to them anyway - that would solve the FA's problem but not solve the root of the problem for the fat person themselves; society still thinks they are unhealthy.



I think that's a fair point. If society didn't stigmatize fat anymore, it might only take a generation or so for things to even out, and FA feelings to be as accepted as other kinds (because they are perfectly normal, after all.) I suppose the issue is muddied by the fact that, currently, FAs are hated by one group of people more than fat women are. (I'm still boiling over how passionate and one-sided the hate in the FA/fat woman thing is.)



loopytheone said:


> Everybody has a different viewpoint and I think they are all valid and important, even those I don't agree with personally. I guess that seeing as I can identify with both sides in terms of being fat and being an FFA, I just wanted to share my opinion too.



I'm glad you did. Like yourself, I enjoy discussing these issues, even if no consensus is reached.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 25, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> I think the hierarchy of fat bigotry goes like this: fat women get the most crap; then fat men; then male FAs; then FFAs.



I think it depends what factors you take into account. Are we guaging how many people in absolute numbers? How many, percentage-wise? How few people each can turn to for sympathy? On that last score, I maintain that there are very few groups worse off than passionate FAs.

I do agree that male FAs have it *far* worse than FFAs. If a woman (and I mean a total stranger,) came right up to me and asked if she could squeeze my arms, or... You know, let's go to the furthest extreme with this. If she asked if she could just straight-up plant her face in my belly button for five minutes straight, I might... *might* get a little ticklish before she was done, and that's about it. Men are way more tolerant of non-Hollywood-endorsed, loving quirkiness than women are, especially among fatter people, and I have literally no idea why.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 25, 2017)

Tad said:


> As a young teen in the pre-web days, I looked up pretty much everything that my local library listed in their card catalogue under the various categories "Obesity - xxx." This eventually led me to "Fat is a Feminist Issue", which informed me that some men prefer their wife to be fat -- because it would reduce how much attention she got from other men. This was the first thing I'd ever read acknowleding that anyone might prefer a fat partner, so it was pretty discouraging. But some time later it occured to me "Guys might lie, give this as a reason, rather than admit that they are so deviant to the norm that they are attracted to fat women." (I'm sure it wasn't in quite those words, but really probably pretty close, I wasn't familiar with terms like BBW, FA, closeted, or fetish back then).



I honestly never even thought to try that, but it wouldn't have done me much good anyway, even if honesty wasn't my highest value. That might get you a body, but never a sympathetic ear.



Tad said:


> This was a long time ago, and information is now both more readily available and more varied -- but at the same time there is so much information that often all we get is what the large media outlets are pushing and what we go looking for. At the same time we tend to pick up a lot of our views on the world from those around us at younger ages. Some people will reject those viewpoints, but most internalize them pretty thoroughly*. This means that most people aren't out there looking for viewpoints that disagree with what they absorbed as they grew up. So a lot of people have inherited that viewpoint where the only reason a man would want a fat partner was so she'd be _less _attractive :doh:
> 
> 
> * thank goodness that most do internalize them thoroughly, or we would never have been able to build high density, high functioning societies. And thank goodness that some will reject them, or societies would never have evolved.



I was under the impression that high-functioning societies came into existence because people needed money to survive, so they had to work to get it, and that work produced structures and industries, based on the desires of the rich.

Unless you mean societies *in general,* which exist because a man went out, met a woman he loved, married her, had kids, and the process repeated a few million times.


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 25, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I think it depends what factors you take into account. Are we guaging how many people in absolute numbers? How many, percentage-wise? How few people each can turn to for sympathy? On that last score, I maintain that there are very few groups worse off than passionate FAs.
> 
> I do agree that male FAs have it *far* worse than FFAs. If a woman (and I mean a total stranger,) came right up to me and asked if she could squeeze my arms, or... You know, let's go to the furthest extreme with this. If she asked if she could just straight-up plant her face in my belly button for five minutes straight, I might... *might* get a little ticklish before she was done, and that's about it. Men are way more tolerant of non-Hollywood-endorsed, loving quirkiness than women are, especially among fatter people, and I have literally no idea why.



I was speaking in general terms, about the relative amounts of crap society heaps on fat women, fat men, FAs, and FFAs overall. FAs get less crap because they're less visible, and the ones who are with fat women are often objects of curiosity rather than derision. If you're talking about turning to people for sympathy, however, I'd have to agree with you. For sympathy, you'd best stick to other FAs. 

I think men are more tolerant of the kind of quirkiness you describe because women are far more accustomed to being sexually demeaned (and assaulted) and thus are far more sensitive to anything that might be interpreted as such. Women are right to be more wary of men than vice-versa, since they're way more likely to be victims of male sex crimes. Unfortunately, this wariness is bound to spill over onto those of us who wouldn't dream of demeaning or assaulting a woman.


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## TwoSwords (Sep 25, 2017)

fatgrllvr said:


> I was speaking in general terms, about the relative amounts of crap society heaps on fat women, fat men, FAs, and FFAs overall. FAs get less crap because they're less visible, and the ones who are with fat women are often objects of curiosity rather than derision. If you're talking about turning to people for sympathy, however, I'd have to agree with you. For sympathy, you'd best stick to other FAs.
> 
> I think men are more tolerant of the kind of quirkiness you describe because women are far more accustomed to being sexually demeaned (and assaulted) and thus are far more sensitive to anything that might be interpreted as such. Women are right to be more wary of men than vice-versa, since they're way more likely to be victims of male sex crimes. Unfortunately, this wariness is bound to spill over onto those of us who wouldn't dream of demeaning or assaulting a woman.



I think if that were the only reason for the touchiness of women in this area, it would vanish around people they knew and trusted, and it often does not.

As for the rest, yes. This is why I often tell people that I'd probably get along better with a thin FFA than with a normal fat woman. I like the latter more physically, but quite honestly, that's not enough.

You know, there's a kind of sick irony to the situation, in a way. I keep hearing complaints from fat women online, about how they don't want men to talk about their attraction to fatness, because they want men to focus *only* on their personality... and their personality is one that is hostile to the interests and feelings of FAs.

Feels a bit like only wanting the companionship of married bachelors to me.


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## loopytheone (Sep 26, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I do agree that male FAs have it *far* worse than FFAs. If a woman (and I mean a total stranger,) came right up to me and asked if she could squeeze my arms, or... You know, let's go to the furthest extreme with this. If she asked if she could just straight-up plant her face in my belly button for five minutes straight, I might... *might* get a little ticklish before she was done, and that's about it. Men are way more tolerant of non-Hollywood-endorsed, loving quirkiness than women are, especially among fatter people, and I have literally no idea why.



I agree with what fatgrllvr said about it going fat women > fat men > FAs > FFAs in terms of the amount of judgement they get from society, mostly just because women are judged more severely and frequently on appearance than most men are. 

As for the example you've given of a woman wanting to touch your belly, bear in mind that your reaction applies to _you as an individual_ and not all fat men in general. You must have noticed by now that, even on a site like this, you are happier being fat and see fatness as a stronger positive than most people. I can assure you as an FFA that most fat men would not react to that situation anything like you would. There's a very large amount of fat men that are ashamed of their size and get angry/upset/uncomfortable if it is mentioned or touched, even in a positive way. Perhaps men tend to be less open about how they feel about themselves in public, and that's why it isn't noticed as much. But I'm positive that every FFA on this site has had the experience of being with a fat man that is ashamed to some degree of their weight. 



fatgrllvr said:


> I was speaking in general terms, about the relative amounts of crap society heaps on fat women, fat men, FAs, and FFAs overall. FAs get less crap because they're less visible, and the ones who are with fat women are often objects of curiosity rather than derision. If you're talking about turning to people for sympathy, however, I'd have to agree with you. For sympathy, you'd best stick to other FAs.
> 
> I think men are more tolerant of the kind of quirkiness you describe because women are far more accustomed to being sexually demeaned (and assaulted) and thus are far more sensitive to anything that might be interpreted as such. Women are right to be more wary of men than vice-versa, since they're way more likely to be victims of male sex crimes. Unfortunately, this wariness is bound to spill over onto those of us who wouldn't dream of demeaning or assaulting a woman.



I agree with both your points here. 

In the example of a stranger asking to touch me, I'd be seriously freaked out. Firstly because I don't like to be touched by strangers (its an invasion of my personal space) and secondly because women are conditioned to be naturally afraid/wary of strangers. This especially applies to a situation where the stranger could over power us, and we are also taught that if we let strange men touch us, we are asking to get raped or followed or stalked. 



TwoSwords said:


> I think if that were the only reason for the touchiness of women in this area, it would vanish around people they knew and trusted, and it often does not.
> 
> As for the rest, yes. This is why I often tell people that I'd probably get along better with a thin FFA than with a normal fat woman. I like the latter more physically, but quite honestly, that's not enough.



I think you're underestimating the amount of wariness that most women have towards men. You might trust an acquaintance to touch you, but for women, we are more likely to be raped by a person we know than by a complete stranger. You have to be far, far higher on the tier of friendship/trust before most women would be comfortable being touched by you. And then, it also depends on the person. From the sounds of it you are a fairly tactile person that doesn't mind being touched. I'm the opposite; I wouldn't let a member of my family or my best friend touch my torso or thighs simply because I don't like being touched by anyone. 

As for the FFA thing, I would have though that you'd be looking for a fat FFA? I mean, you enjoy being fat and want to remain fat so surely you would want a partner that appreciated that and found your weight as attractive as you find it, right? It reminds me of something Tad said once, about there being different aspects to being an FA. I can't remember exactly what he said, but what I remember is that there are at least two aspects to being an FA; liking your own fat and liking fat on others. Those two things don't always co-exist together (fit people often like BBW/BHM) but you are ideally looking for a partner who mirrors those preferences; one who likes others fat and one who likes being fat, for instance. But you like both, so really you need a partner that likes both too. This is a realisation I came to a while ago in terms of myself. I love fat people and am definitely an FA (so I want a fat partner) but I also like being fat myself and want to be adored for that (so my partner needs to be an FA too). As a fat FFA who's only ever been in serious relationships with other fat FAs, I can assure you it does happen and is definitely what I would advise looking for.


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## Tad (Sep 26, 2017)

FWIW, regarding what Loopy remembered of what I said, the three categories I wrote about some time ago were roughly:

- liking fat on prospective partners, classically being sexually attracted to fat women if you are a heterosexual guy and liking fat women if you are a heterosexual woman, etc.

- liking fat on those people who would not be in your sexual partner pool (preferring the look of other fat guys for a strictly heterosexual male, etc)

- liking fat on yourself.

With the note that people can be one, two, or all three of those things.

Nowadays I'd probably be more inclined to just do a 2x2 grid, with one axis running from "fat as an erotic preference" to "fat as an esthetic preference" and the other axis being "others" "self." (which doesn't properly describe the case of someone who is attracted to thin members of one gender and fat members of another, or who would like to be a thin lady or a fat man, etc, etc, but you can only do so much with two dimensional charts!), and pointing out that people can identify with from zero to all four of those quadrants.

(the main difference being that I came to recognize that some people get turned on by being fat but yet can feel it makes them unattractive, or can like the look of being fat but associating that with being less sexual than if they were thin. Should have been obvious, but I just hadn't considered those options)


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## fatgrllvr (Sep 26, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> I think you're underestimating the amount of wariness that most women have towards men. You might trust an acquaintance to touch you, but for women, we are more likely to be raped by a person we know than by a complete stranger. You have to be far, far higher on the tier of friendship/trust before most women would be comfortable being touched by you. And then, it also depends on the person. From the sounds of it you are a fairly tactile person that doesn't mind being touched. I'm the opposite; I wouldn't let a member of my family or my best friend touch my torso or thighs simply because I don't like being touched by anyone.



I agree - even a woman who doesn't mind being touched _per se_ would be (and should be) wary about most men touching them. To paraphrase a saying, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will rape or kill them." Of course, the vast majority of men don't want to rape or kill women, but unfortunately the few who do are not likely to reveal themselves until it's too late.

[QUOTE} (Originally posted by Loopytheone): As for the FFA thing, I would have though that you'd be looking for a fat FFA? I mean, you enjoy being fat and want to remain fat so surely you would want a partner that appreciated that and found your weight as attractive as you find it, right? It reminds me of something Tad said once, about there being different aspects to being an FA. I can't remember exactly what he said, but what I remember is that there are at least two aspects to being an FA; liking your own fat and liking fat on others. Those two things don't always co-exist together (fit people often like BBW/BHM) but you are ideally looking for a partner who mirrors those preferences; one who likes others fat and one who likes being fat, for instance. But you like both, so really you need a partner that likes both too. This is a realisation I came to a while ago in terms of myself. I love fat people and am definitely an FA (so I want a fat partner) but I also like being fat myself and want to be adored for that (so my partner needs to be an FA too). As a fat FFA who's only ever been in serious relationships with other fat FAs, I can assure you it does happen and is definitely what I would advise looking for.[END QUOTE]

Interesting point. Some FAs (including FFAs) obviously like being fat themselves, and some prefer not to be fat, for any number of reasons. I was fat when I was a kid, and I'm also on the autism spectrum (Asperger's), although nobody was aware of such a thing back in the day. As a result, I was bullied a lot. At age 11, I started exercising and studying self-defense, and by the time I was 13 or 14, the bullying had pretty much ended. The exercise/self-defense habit stuck with me, however, as did a loathing for bullies, bigots, and anyone who demeans others. So I'm in the more or less fit (if old) FA category, but it has nothing to do with bad feelings about fat on anyone. In fact, I can definitely see the hotness of two fat bodies coming together (so to speak).


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## TwoSwords (Sep 26, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> As for the example you've given of a woman wanting to touch your belly, bear in mind that your reaction applies to _you as an individual_ and not all fat men in general. You must have noticed by now that, even on a site like this, you are happier being fat and see fatness as a stronger positive than most people. I can assure you as an FFA that most fat men would not react to that situation anything like you would. There's a very large amount of fat men that are ashamed of their size and get angry/upset/uncomfortable if it is mentioned or touched, even in a positive way. Perhaps men tend to be less open about how they feel about themselves in public, and that's why it isn't noticed as much. But I'm positive that every FFA on this site has had the experience of being with a fat man that is ashamed to some degree of their weight.



I know. That wasn't really my point. I was only using that as an example of what I meant. However, as a thought experiment, it's not very precise, so let's use a different example. Kissing while hanging upside-down like Spider-man. Say two people were in the relationship for a while, and the girl says she thinks it's totally the only romantic way to kiss. The guy might totally humor her, even if he thinks she's a little strange. The same is not true the other way around.

My point was just that there is a difference between the experiences of FAs and FFAs, favoring FFAs as a result of the greater willingness of men to accept "weird stuff" from their partner, which, by accepting the order that fatgrllvr put forth, you seem to acknowledge.



loopytheone said:


> In the example of a stranger asking to touch me, I'd be seriously freaked out. Firstly because I don't like to be touched by strangers (its an invasion of my personal space) and secondly because women are conditioned to be naturally afraid/wary of strangers. This especially applies to a situation where the stranger could over power us, and we are also taught that if we let strange men touch us, we are asking to get raped or followed or stalked.



Of course. You need to know you can trust the person first. I get that. The only thing here I'm a little foggy on is what it would be like to desire personal space. To me, personal space has always been a purely mental thing, when there are times that I don't want to be distracted from my thoughts, but I don't really know what it's like to want other people to back away from me, unless I have *very* good reasons to think they're carrying a weapon of some kind.



loopytheone said:


> I think you're underestimating the amount of wariness that most women have towards men. You might trust an acquaintance to touch you, but for women, we are more likely to be raped by a person we know than by a complete stranger. You have to be far, far higher on the tier of friendship/trust before most women would be comfortable being touched by you. And then, it also depends on the person. From the sounds of it you are a fairly tactile person that doesn't mind being touched. I'm the opposite; I wouldn't let a member of my family or my best friend touch my torso or thighs simply because I don't like being touched by anyone.



You use the words "fairly tactile" to describe me. That's halfway right. I'm almost totally tactile. Apart from physical proximity and the occasional compliment on something I've done or achieved, physical contact is just about the only form of affection I can really appreciate, and no, I don't mean it in that kind of way. I mean pats on the shoulders, the arms, the head... You know. Contact. I react to such contact a good deal more and better than any house cat I've ever seen, so when women complain "we're not pets. Don't touch us," I just can't even conceptualize what that kind of feeling would be like. What's worse is that it seems like a lot more people are developing in your way, rather than mine, meaning that I need to search harder and harder to find the affection and affirmation that I need.

Harry Frederick Harlow's experiments showed the essential importance of appreciable, social contact, over and above the animal desire to survive in rhesus monkeys, and although I'm not a monkey, and have the ability to suppress my emotions, nonetheless, my life of almost total tactile isolation has been tortuous in the extreme, and I often wonder if it's even worth going to work for another day, just so I can prolong it. Don't get me wrong. I have no intention of endangering my own survival. It's just my feelings on this point are very powerful, and cause me almost nothing but pain, because of how the social situation is right now.



loopytheone said:


> As for the FFA thing, I would have though that you'd be looking for a fat FFA?



Yes, in an ideal situation, but my point is that I think a thin FFA would at least understand my feelings on all this, and wouldn't try to condemn me just for feeling the way I feel (without being a hypocrite, anyway.)



loopytheone said:


> It reminds me of something Tad said once, about there being different aspects to being an FA. I can't remember exactly what he said, but what I remember is that there are at least two aspects to being an FA; liking your own fat and liking fat on others.



To me, he listed three types of Fat Admiration. Liking fat on potential mates, on non-potential mates and on yourself. I fall into all three categories, because I think anything (men, women, dogs, snowmen, potato-heads, etc,) look better fat than thin. I would only draw the line somewhere in "roads" territory.



loopytheone said:


> As a fat FFA who's only ever been in serious relationships with other fat FAs, I can assure you it does happen and is definitely what I would advise looking for.



I think we're on the same page here.


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## Lastminute.Tom (Oct 10, 2017)

loopytheone said:


> First off, that's a really interesting take on things, thanks for sharing. :happy: A lot of FA seem to start with just saying they like big boobs. Makes me wonder how many people that claim to like big boobs are closet FA.
> 
> I would disagree with the part I've highlighted though. Due to medical reasons, I have always been unable to orgasm yet my love of fat people has always been there and always been strong. I think it's probably too complex a thing to reduce it to one or two events in a persons life.



Hi sorry for late reply, I'm basing my "imprinting" idea on the leary/wilson 8 circuits of human consciousness and I got it wrong, the imprinting of your socio-sexual circuit isn't just from orgasm but from puberty as well

I have intellectual narcissism so I try and always appear to be smart and funny, but at least I'm aware of it so I can poke fun at it and try and acknowledge when I'm doing it

My instant reaction to reading about your medical condition was "Oh you poor thing" and I instantly wanted to start suggesting tantric methods/mdma but then I realised that you probably get that reaction all the time so I tried to think of a cleverer response (although its not as insightful a realisation when I had to tell everyone how insightful I am so no points for me there)

My ponderings have lead me to this hypothesis, not about the imprinting of our sexual desires but why we find people attractive.
We have at least two mental states that govern most of our actions, fight or flight and rest and digest, I think there's more states but for sake of argument lets suppose we have this polarity to work in, now in fight or flight mode you only have access to the logical side of the brain you're incapable of emotional range and creative problem solving, I think in this mode you're attraction is motivated by fear:
-you become attracted to people you can project yourself in
-you're currently feeling ashamed of yourself and your body
-this is a logical state of mind growing up with western media
-your attracted to people who are ashamed of their bodies/sexual identity
-I realised that when I'm stressed or scared or angry and I'm trying to masturbate to porn it was usually to models that aren't "present" they still attach some shame to what they are doing so their minds are elsewhere
-they're in the same fight or flight mode so really I was masturbating to myself projected into this poor person

That sounds absolutely hideous writing it out loud but I think this is a widespread problem, I've stopped watching porn where the women aren't present (you can always tell by the eyes) I think we need to come to a place of self acceptance in order to heal this fear-jerk reaction.

Anyway to end on a happier note I'd like to talk about the opposite state of mind "rest and digest" where you have access to both sides of your brain: 
-I still think in rest an digest you see yourself in porn but it's the "present" version of yourself
-this state you can see the empowered version of yourself in models that love their bodies and know that you love their bodies too
-you feel more attractive in your own body
-you have agency and you commune as equals in love rather than fear
-you think more about the sensations that you can give rather than receive
-in this state you can make love with yourself and others

In our crazy world where we decided that cities were a good idea and that it was also a good idea to see everyone as separate races that are essentially alien invaders it can be hard to leave fight or flight (I think this is the root cause of addiction so I'm not going to advocate drugs except responsibly [only do it with people you trust]) I'd like to advocate massage as my main route to rest and digest mode, body positive masseuses can be hard to come by but you can get an indian head massager or practice reflexology on your hands or ears (feet too if your flexible) or do it with a friend, neck and shoulders seems to be where we carry a lot of our tension.

I'm scared I'm going to offend people with this post, I'm not trying to shame anyone I'm just trying to admit to my own shame so that I can grow, I don't think that my hypothesis are an indisputable truth its just a theory I came up with (I'm also scared this might not be original so I'm going to say right now I'm not saying I thought of it first) 
Also I'm afraid I haven't put it very eloquently its a very new theory and I'm terrified about being misunderstood so I don't think I've used quite the right language but hopefully you can see what I'm trying to get across.
Also I know this is a thread about fat fetishism but my theory is about all attraction I think it links in with fetishism but I just wanted to clarify that, thankyou I'd like to end on a happy quote x



> “But what I hope most of all is that you understand what I mean when I tell you that even though I do not know you, and even though I may never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you. I love you. With all my heart, I love you.”



&#8213; Alan Moore, V for Vendetta


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