# What is a good non-meat source of protein?



## Ryan (Dec 13, 2007)

I've been eating healthier over the last few months, but I still eat a lot of red meat. I have no interest in becoming a vegetarian, but it would be nice to find a healthier source of protein. I've heard that tofu has a lot of protein. Any other suggestions?


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## Surlysomething (Dec 13, 2007)

Ryan said:


> I've been eating healthier over the last few months, but I still eat a lot of red meat. I have no interest in becoming a vegetarian, but it would be nice to find a healthier source of protein. I've heard that tofu has a lot of protein. Any other suggestions?



These are protein rich foods

Milk 
Soy Milk 
Eggs 
Cheese 
Yogurt 
Peanut Butter 
Lean Meats, Fish, and Poultry 
Beans, Tofu, Lentils, and other Legumes 
Grains, including bread and pasta 
Nuts and Seeds


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## k1009 (Dec 13, 2007)

Try to stay away from soy meats, they're filled with binders and strange chemicals that make the ingredient list for a soy "sausage" longer than for a regular offal and sawdust filled one. It's creepy.

I like marinated tofu every now and then. Surly's list is great but I'd emphasise fish like salmon, tuna, sardines and mackeral if you want something really good for you. They have the good oils and other things I'm pretty sure the scientists say our bodies need.

What about falafel? They're ground chickpeas mixed with spices and fried. If you make them yourself from a mix or scratch you can fry in extra virgin olive oil or even do what a friend of mine does and bake them with a little of the oil brushed over :eat2:. Falafel sandwiches are a staple of my diet. A little tahina, red cabbage salad and pickles in a pita and you've got yourself a fine meal. 

I hear people talk about "complete proteins" for non-meat meals and I admit I have no idea what that means. Maybe someone here knows if it's just diet crap or if the concept has merit.


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## kr7 (Dec 13, 2007)

Quorn. Tastes very much like pork or turkey roast (depending on what you put it in). IMO it is the best tasting meat substitute.

http://www.quorn.us//cmpage.aspx?section=home

Chris


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## kr7 (Dec 13, 2007)

k1009 said:


> .....I hear people talk about "complete proteins" for non-meat meals and I admit I have no idea what that means. Maybe someone here knows if it's just diet crap or if the concept has merit.



It's true. Our bodies need several types of proteins. Plants do not make all types in each plant. So, in order to eat a complete protein (ie all the types we need), we have to eat certain combinations of plant foods. For example: beans and rice are a classic complete protein.

Chris


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## Fascinita (Dec 13, 2007)

I like Morningstar Farms Veggie Crumbles. I use it as a hamburger substitute in tacos and other dishes, and it works really well.

Good ole tofu is great, though. Some people find it bland, but you can cook it and dress it to taste. 

Also, I love tempeh a lot. Again, not for everyone's tastebuds, but if you like a certain nutty mild fermented taste, give it a try.


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## Red (Dec 13, 2007)

I know you said you said you have no interest in becoming a veggie but I just found out Broccoli contains LOADS of protein. Steam some up, add some garlic and butter.

I find something very satisfying about those little green trees, :eat2:


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## James (Dec 13, 2007)

Red said:


> I know you said you said you have no interest in becoming a veggie but I just found out Broccoli contains LOADS of protein. Steam some up, add some garlic and butter.
> 
> I find something very satisfying about those little green trees, :eat2:



lil green trees with butter and some kind of cheesy sauce... mmm... cant go wrong with those :eat2:


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## HottiMegan (Dec 13, 2007)

i have read that beans are the best food possible to eat. It is a whole food, full of fiber and protein. 
I also love Tofurky. It's yummy.
I eat a lot of tofu and if you have a Trader Joes near by, they have a high protein tofu that is a GREAT texture!
Textured Vegetable protein is a good source too. I put that in my rice when i make it to add some protein and good texture. (also to have less carbs in the rice)

I will also say those morning star veggie crumbles are awesome! I love them. Having never eaten meat before i dont know how they measure up though.


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## HottiMegan (Dec 13, 2007)

Red said:


> I know you said you said you have no interest in becoming a veggie but I just found out Broccoli contains LOADS of protein. Steam some up, add some garlic and butter.
> 
> I find something very satisfying about those little green trees, :eat2:



It's true! I read that per 100 calories, broccoli has more protein than steak. I have been known to eat 2lbs of steamed broccoli in a day


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 13, 2007)

kr7 said:


> Quorn. Tastes very much like pork or turkey roast (depending on what you put it in). IMO it is the best tasting meat substitute.
> 
> http://www.quorn.us//cmpage.aspx?section=home
> 
> Chris



Quorn is one of several companies that make textured vegetable protein (which the Japanese call _seitan_ and have been making for centuries. It is very much like meat in texture. Another company that makes it (both as seitan and as fake chicken) is White Wave; I actually like their product better than Quorn's, but it's harder to find.


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## GWARrior (Dec 13, 2007)

semen?


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## kr7 (Dec 13, 2007)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Quorn is one of several companies that make textured vegetable protein (which the Japanese call _seitan_ and have been making for centuries. It is very much like meat in texture. Another company that makes it (both as seitan and as fake chicken) is White Wave; I actually like their product better than Quorn's, but it's harder to find.



Actually, quorn and seitan are two completely different types of protein. Seitan is derived from gluten, while quorn is a mycoprotein.  They also have very different textures and taste. White Wave makes tofu, tempeh and seitan products, but they do not make quorn products. Their "chicken" is just differently textured/flavored seitan. It is a pretty good product, just not the same thing. 

Chris


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## Shosh (Dec 13, 2007)

GWARrior said:


> semen?



Priceless you are.

Have a great 2008 mate.


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## Shosh (Dec 13, 2007)

Surlysomething said:


> These are protein rich foods
> 
> Milk
> Soy Milk
> ...



Thanks for those suggestions Tina. I am not able to eat much anymore, and I do not eat much meat at all, so I have to be very careful to choose nutricious foods.


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## D_A_Bunny (Dec 13, 2007)

I myself changed my eating habits last year to be healthier. I added a lot of soy products. Then I found out that they were negatively affecting the absorbtion of my thyroid medication.
So, I would just say to all, that is something to consider.
Sluggish thyroid, skip most of the soy.

As far as complete proteins go, I have always heard that rice and beans are a complete protein.

Christine


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## moore2me (Dec 13, 2007)

Bunny, I don't know if anyone noticed this or not, but after you posted to this thread here's how the Health Forum for this Thread looked like. I think it's hilarious!!!!!!


*What is a good non-meat source of protein?. . . . . Today . . .DumbAssBunny*


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## moore2me (Dec 14, 2007)

I had the following info on adding protein to your diet that one of my physicians sent me. Maybe you guys could use some of the tips.

Reference material on *Protein in the Diet*
by *Dr.John Baker*, M.D., Little Rock, AR,​
Sources of protein (* indicates fat-free versions to hold down calorie count)

*Non-fat cottage cheese
*Non-fat, sugar-free yogurt
*Non-fat and low-fat cheeses
Cooked cereals made with *skim milk. (Flavored cereals contain sugar.)
*Peanut butter (Peanut butter contains sugar and is high in calories)-we recommend natural peanut butter
*Macaroni and cheese
*Eggs (cholesterol free eggs are available is needed)
*Sugar-free pudding made with skim milk
*Fat-free Refried beans

*Ways to add extra protein your diet​*
1. Add Carnation Instant Breakfast (Sugar-free) to skim milk

2. Add Carnation (or store brand) nonfat dry milk to soups, hot cereals, macaroni and cheese, skim milk, and other foods.

3. Add pureed baby food meats to soups and pasta dishes, grate hard-boiled eggs into soups and mashed potatoes.

4. Make all cereals and soups with skim milk.

&#8195;
*Problems from not getting enough protein in your diet​*
*ANEMIA*  results from inadequate intake of iron, protein, B-12, B-6, and folic acid

 Protein: (4 calories per gram) important for would healing, helps preserve lean body mass while losing fat-can be found in animal and plant products. One ounce lean meat, poultry or fish, one ounce of low fat cheese, one egg or ½ cup cooked dried beans equals 7 grams of protein.


*HIGH PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS*​
Some of these supplements can be found or ordered at your local foods store:

Natures Plus Vegetarian FRUITEIN High Protein-Low Calorie Banana Orange Crème comes in individual packets ($1.29 each) or 1.4 lbs. for $16.05 or 2.8 lbs. for $27.85. Can be mixed with water or juice. Contains 96 calories and 10 grams of protein per serving. Contains essential vitamins, minerals, and enzymes. Sugar-free, Lactose-free.

Natures Plus SPIRU-TEIN energy packed meal replacement. Comes in Chocolate, Vanilla, Banana, Strawberry. Soy protein powder with spirulina, bee pollen, vitamins, minerals, and enzymes. Available in individual packets ($1.29), 16 oz. can ($14.85), and 32 oz. can ($25.89). Mix with juice or milk. Contains 87  94 calories and 14 grams of protein per serving without milk or 23 grams of protein with milk. Sugar-free, Lactose-free if made with juice and not milk.

Fearn SOYA Protein Isolate. Available in 10 oz. can ($7.99). Can be mixed with orange juice, tomato juice, or milk. 1 serving provides 50 calories and 13 grams of protein. Sugar-free, Lactose-free.

MLO Natural Foods EGG WHITE PROTEIN with Biotin. Available in 16 oz. can. 8 servings per can at $14.05. 3 lb. Can for $27.05. Each serving provides 83 calories and 10 grams of protein. Can be mixed with any beverage. Sugar-free, Lactose-free if not mixed with milk. 

Naturade ALL NATURAL VEGETABLE PROTEIN High Quality Protein. Chocolate or vanilla flavor. 1 pound can, 16 servings at $13.95. Can be mixed with any beverage or added to foods. Each serving provides 100 calories and 26 grams of protein. Sugar-free, Lactose-free.

0% Carbohydrates PRO-LIFE VEGETARIAN Protein with Lecithin, Papain, Methlonine, and High Absorption B-12. May be mixed with any beverage. 16 servings per pound can at $10.79 and 3 pounds can at $26.99. Each serving provides 100 calories and 26 grams of protein. Sugar-free, Lactose-free.

Natures Life SUPER-PRO 96 Vegetarian high protein energy with super whole foods complex. Mix with any beverage. 16 servings per pound can at $12.59. Each serving provides 108 calories and 24 grams of protein. Sugar-free, Lactose-free. They also have a SUPER-PRO LITE with fewer calories for $11.95 for 1-pound can.

NATURADE MILK AND EGG PROTEIN High Biological Value with vitamins, minerals, lecithin, and enzymes. Available in 16 oz. can ($17.95). Each serving provides 100 calories and 23 grams of protein.

**All supplements are virtually fat free. Calories and protein amounts given do not include the beverage they are mixed in.


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## Miss Vickie (Dec 14, 2007)

Moore, thanks for posting all this interesting information! I definitely found that keeping my protein up has gone very far to keeping my anemia under control. And yes, for wound healing? Critical. As well as immune function since the wbc's are made of protein. 

Bunny, thanks for the info on thyroid and soy. Since I'm going to be losing my thyroid sometime soon, knowing the downside of soy with that regard is important. Thanks!

This is a great thread. I don't have any more to contribute than anyone else has, and I'm enjoying the excellent ideas and suggestions.


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## Jes (Dec 14, 2007)

anyone say quinoa (keen-wah) yet? It's got a lot of protein, comparatively and all of the essential acids, which is awesome.

I make silken tofu smoothies and they can make a good meal replacement with lots of nice fruit. 

I now and then worry about estrogen-related (or whatever that's called; can't think of the term) breast cancer, but I don't suppose that tofu now and then really ups your chances of that...i hope. 

HUMMUS! make your own. Cheap. Easy. Sleazy. Put it onto whole grain brown bread for lunch. I swear, it can be so delicious, you'll slap your momma. Honestly, that is so good. Add some nice garlic for a delicious kick in the ass.

N.B. Do not make out after the menu item above.


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## Cynthia (Dec 14, 2007)

k1009 said:


> I hear people talk about "complete proteins" for non-meat meals and I admit I have no idea what that means. Maybe someone here knows if it's just diet crap or if the concept has merit.



Vegans (those who eat no food from animal sources) need to be more aware of obtaining complete proteins by, for example, combining rice with beans. The average lacto-ovo vegetarian needn't typically worry, because dairy products and particularly eggs are high-quality protein sources. 

And here's another Quorn fan in the thread.... Their mock chicken cutlets stuffed with goat cheese and cranberries are out of this world.


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## D_A_Bunny (Dec 14, 2007)

Hey M2me that is pretty funny about the heading. And as far as your remark about protein and wound care, you are right on. This summer when I had a major wound, they had me on protein liquid nasty stuff and some decent shakes. Anything they could get in me to help healing.
A lot of people don't realize just how much protein we actually need.

Of course, low fat and high fiber sources are the best.

But a little DumbAssBunny now and then won't hurt either.

Christine


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## moore2me (Dec 16, 2007)

Dear DumbAssBunny,

Thanks for the compliment. I have another interesting (I think funny -but I'm warped) bunny story for you.

When I was working for the state, I had to inspect food processing operations, one of which was a rabbit meat factory. It was actually a kill plant where rabbits (grown for meat) were slaughtered, processed, packaged, and shipped to grocery stores where consumers buy rabbit meat.

Our team was breaking for lunch that day & were gathering on the sidewalk outside the plant close to the parking lot. A car pulled up and a mother, father, and a little girl holding a big pet rabbit got out. The little girl handed the rabbit to her father and he walked off holding the bunny right through the front doors of the plant. The little girl was sniffling and the mother reached down to comfort her child. I clearly heard the mother say to the kid, *"Don't worry honey, these people will take good care of Petey. They will find him a good home." *

Dad walked back to the car without Petey. I thought, good home - yeah! I wonder how many of those tales my mom told me?


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## kr7 (Dec 16, 2007)

moore2me said:


> ........The little girl handed the rabbit to her father and he walked off holding the bunny right through the front doors of the plant. The little girl was sniffling and the mother reached down to comfort her child. I clearly heard the mother say to the kid, *"Don't worry honey, these people will take good care of Petey. They will find him a good home." *
> 
> Dad walked back to the car without Petey. I thought, good home - yeah! I wonder how many of those tales my mom told me?



Oh moore, this is horrific!  How could these people do that to their pet and to their kid. This is so wrong on so many levels.

Chris


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## Miss Vickie (Dec 16, 2007)

moore2me said:


> Dear DumbAssBunny,
> 
> Thanks for the compliment. I have another interesting (I think funny -but I'm warped) bunny story for you.
> 
> ...



***covers her bunnies' ears and eyes***


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## D_A_Bunny (Dec 16, 2007)

Not to add to the bunny yucking, BUT... when I was a young teen my brother decided that he wanted a pet rabbit. Well, he thought a pair would be best so that they could keep each other company since they needed to live outside in a cage.
Well, keep each other company they did. Soon enough we had lots of bunnies, so my brother gave them out to all the neighbors to have bunny pets. Well after a while he made a really big cage that was ground level that had no top on it.
One day a stray, very large dog got into the cage and ** let's just say, fur was flying. Well, there was only one survivor. At this point my mother had enough of the whole ordeal.
A few days later she came home from her factory job and stated that she had found a new home for the remaining bunny. So my sister and I drove the bunny up there the next day after her shift was over so that she could give it to her co-worker.
I felt sad but relieved that the bunny would have a safer place to live and expressed those sentiments to my brother who was still devastated.
A few days later I heard my mother on the phone with my sister who apparently had inquired of my mother how the new "owners" were enjoying the bunny. 
All I heard was "Oh, they enjoyed that rabbit all right, they enjoyed it for dinner!"

YUCK! 

Christine


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## kr7 (Dec 16, 2007)

Yup! Never trust a human.

Chris


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## love dubh (Dec 18, 2007)

Cottage cheese is a faaaaantastic source of protein. It's also a good substitute for queso blanco in enchiladas, and I'm sure a creative mind can make it suitable for a ricatta sub in lasagna. 

On its own, eat it with chunks of tomato and sweet or hot paprika. Yum 

Meanwhile, here's a page dedicated to that crazy lil' protein powerhouse. 

Jes, can you give us some suggestions for your neato tofu-fruit smoothies? Whenever I make them, they come out less-than-delicious.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 18, 2007)

love dubh said:


> Cottage cheese is a faaaaantastic source of protein. It's also a good substitute for queso blanco in enchiladas, and I'm sure a creative mind can make it suitable for a ricatta sub in lasagna.



You don't even have to be all that creative: I've made lasagna with ricotta and with cottage cheese, and I like cottage cheese better.


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## Ryan (Dec 20, 2007)

Surlysomething said:


> These are protein rich foods
> 
> Milk
> Soy Milk
> ...



Aside from the milk and yogurt, these are things that I'm now eating regularly. I forgot that soy milk had so much protein in it.


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## Ryan (Dec 20, 2007)

Red said:


> I know you said you said you have no interest in becoming a veggie but I just found out Broccoli contains LOADS of protein. Steam some up, add some garlic and butter.
> 
> I find something very satisfying about those little green trees, :eat2:



I'm not interested in becoming a vegetarian; giving up meat entirely. It tastes too good to give up completely. But I absolutely would like to eat a bit less red meat and more grain or vegetable sources of protein. 

I wish liked broccoli more. The only way I can eat it is steamed and covered with Cheese Whiz or ranch dressing, which kinda cancels out the healthy effects.


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## Ryan (Dec 20, 2007)

GWARrior said:


> semen?



One could argue that this also comes from a type of "meat". :bow:


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## Ryan (Dec 20, 2007)

I want to thank everyone who posted in this thread for their suggestions. I found a lot of suggestions that I'll be trying (semen NOT being one of them). 

I've been eating a fairly healthy diet and exercising regularly for several months now. I've lost weight and feel great (acid reflux is basically gone, thank God). The only downside is that I've lost some of my resistance to cold weather. I used to be able to wear shorts and t-shirts in the middle of winter. I'm actually wearing long sleeve shirts this winter, which I haven't done for years. And I even run my heater once in a while. I rarely did this before.


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## k1009 (Dec 21, 2007)

I was at a function this arvo and amongst the appetizers I found baby tortillas filled with sauteed vegetables and feta cheese! Oh god they were delish. Feta mostly keeps its shape when you cook it and has less fat than yellow cheese so it would be a great standin for red meat in one pot meals. Season it with oregano and lemon juice for a yummy greek theme over brown rice or cayenne pepper wrapped up in big tortillas for a mexican meal.

I'm seriously going to have to make these for myself they were that good.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Dec 21, 2007)

Ryan said:


> I wish liked broccoli more. The only way I can eat it is steamed and covered with Cheese Whiz or ranch dressing, which kinda cancels out the healthy effects.



Try this:

1/4 cup garlic, chopped
1/4 cup jalapeno peppers, sliced
2 tsp corn oil (I prefer peanut oil)
3 cups broccoli florets
1 cup onions, sliced
1/4 cup soy sauce

Saute the garlic, onions, jalapenos and broccoli in the oil until the onions are translucent. Add the soy sauce and cook, stirring frequently, for about five minutes.


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## ZainTheInsane (Dec 21, 2007)

I find this page incredibly interesting...a couple of my friends as well as my sister are non-meat eaters...and honestly...I can't say I understand it, but kudos to those who can do it.

I like deer, cow, pig, chicken, turkey, pheasant, bear, squirrel, rabbit, horse, etc. They is yummy! 
So, maybe I'll never be the healthiest person...but I'll live...I think...

Deer, bear, wild pheasant, squirrel, rabbit, and horse meats are good lean meats. Only had bear and horse once...so good luck finding that. Rabbit and squirrel you'll have to either get yourself, or find someone who hunts and ask them. As for deer or pheasant, they tend to be relatively easy to find by comparison.

Honestly, I'd recommend fish, and wild game if you can get it. For chicken, a good idea would be to keep away from the skin...it contains a huge amount of fat and cholestrol. 

Oh, and GRILL GRILL GRILL!!! Grilling is awesome, and tasty. If you can't grill, try steaming or smoking stuff. Using actual fire helps get rid of the fat. Failing that, baking is a good way of getting rid of excess fat. Keep away from fried stuff.

And more important that getting rid of red meats (I've never seen a problem with them...and depending on your genes you might never see any), is to EXERCISE A LOT. Cardio, Strength training, etc.

Making yourself healthier is awesome, but exercise, at least in my experience, combined with even a half-way decent diet (not diet as in losing weight, diet as in what you eat), can make you healthier than eating no meat.

Again, genetics plays a HUGE role. 

Using myself as an example...if I exercise and eat half-way decently, I'll likely live to be 90+ years old, and still in possession of my mind and the majority of my bodily functions. But, I have to watch out for heart, skin, and prostate problems. Exercise and decent diet ward off heart problems, taking care of my skin, and keeping an eye on pesky moles/freckles and such to keep my skin from killing me, and regular (if a bit embarrassing/pain in the ass) check ups to my doctor.

SO, just keep your genes in mind. You may not need to EAT healthier than you already are necessarily, you might just need to figure out some other ways you can keep yourself up...and there are many approaches aside from diet.

Or I could just be blowing smoke out my ass...who knows...

Anywho, good luck, and try fish and venison (sp?) before tofu...from what I've been told, tofu is tough to get used to, and like beer, is an acquired taste.


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## Risible (Dec 21, 2007)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Try this:
> 
> 1/4 cup garlic, chopped
> 1/4 cup jalapeno peppers, sliced
> ...



1/4 cup garlic and jalapenos!  Doctor, you're my kind of foodee!  Good heavens, sir!


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## tonynyc (Dec 23, 2007)

Some Vegetarian Sandwich Ideas I saw on one site. I have not tried any of them so I cannot vouch for their tastiness or not... 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: World Vegan Day (http://www.worldveganday.org/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=68).

1. Korma Have a Go! - smoked tofu or vegan "chicken" and vegetable korma (in curried egg-free dairy-free mayonnaise) with crispy lettuce.

2. Blokes BLT - vegan "gammon" steak, lettuce and tomato, thick bread.

3. Wee Willy Winkie - vegan sausages with HP sauce and lettuce.

4. Just Philly? - dairy-free cream cheese with red peppers, garlic and celery.
5. Scrambled Meg - scrambled tofu, cauliflower and mashed sweet-corn, parsley, dairy/egg-free mayo and nutmeg with cress.

6. Peanut Buttie - organic fair trade peanut butter with dairy-free coleslaw, bean-sprouts and lettuce

7. Funny Bone - olive hummus, red onion and salad on posh bread.

8. Cocktail Cob - sweet corn, strips of smoked baked tofu in "prawn-less" cocktail sauce, nori seaweed flakes with lettuce, lemon and capers.

9. Peanut Butter and Jelly - organic peanut butter and organic no-sugar jam.

10. Ploughman - vegan cheddar Cheezly, pickle, radishes and lettuce.

11. Fungi Filler  wild mushroom and tarragon pate with gherkins and red onion. 

12. Moscow Munch - vegan "caviar" and salad with egg-free mayo.

13. Med Veg - Roasted Mediterranean vegetables and hummus on sun-dried tomato bread. 

14. Bagpipe Bun  vegan haggis, Piccalilli and salad 15. Posh Chip Buttie - roasted rosemary and sesame seed potatoes with watercress. 

16. Borscht Buttie  pickled beetroot, caraway, hummus and lettuce

17. My Mate - yeast extract, soft dairy-free cream cheese and slithers of Granny Smith apple. 

18. Sehr Gutenburger - cashew nut burger with sauerkraut.

19. Cinderella surprise  grated carrot, red peppers, red onions, zest of orange with toasted pumpkin and coriander seeds, raisins and chilli

20. Dolphin Friendly Salad  (frozen) flaked smoked tofu, vegan tomato pesto, spring onions, vegan mayo and salad.

21. Tapenade Tantalizer - olive pate with dairy-free cream cheese and salad.

22. Cold Dog - vegan frankfurters, sauerkraut, tomato sauce, mustard and onions. 

23. Miso You Madly  miso, walnuts or beansprouts and crisp salad.

24. Devil's Delight - ginger marinated seitan with chilli and beansprouts.

25. Mock Duck - mock duck or crispy smoked tofu with black bean sauce, spring onion, shredded Chinese leaves and beansprouts.

26. For Alfalfa's Sake - alfalfa and red roasted pepper hummus. 

27. Tikka Bite o' This- vegan "chicken" marinated in Tikka sauce, vegan mayo and salad.

28. Bloody Mary - tomatoes, black pepper, sun-dried tomato paste on olive ciabatta.

29. Monster Munch - nut loaf, salad and pickle.

30. Dhal Delight - lentil, garlic and lime pate with red onion and mango chutney. 

31. Tzatziki Tingler  cucumber, vegan yoghurt, tahini, mint, garlic with watercress. 

32. Kentucky Fried Wicken - crisp-baked Wicken Fen sausages with salad.

33. Club sandwich - vegan nacho cheese, red peppers, onions, olives, sun-dried tomato paste, oregano, vegan pepperoni.

34. Chocoholic - organic fair-trade hazelnut and chocolate spread with bananas. 

35. Wimbledon - vegan dairy-free cream cheese and freeze-dried strawberries or sugar-free strawberry jam.

36. Totally Tropical - vegan cream cheese with dried apricots, pineapple and sunflower seeds.

37. Wonderful Waldorf - vegan mayo, apple, celery, walnuts and sultanas.

38. Frittering Fancy - corn and smoky snap fritter with salad in a buttie.

39. Moussaka Me Gently - roasted aubergine, garlic, creamed potato, nutmeg, sun-dried tomato paste, grated vegan "cheese" and vegan mayo.

40. Bubble 'n Squeak  pickled red cabbage, onion, shredded green cabbage, crushed black pepper, low-sodium salt, tahini, toasted sesame seeds, yeast extract, shredded baked potato and vegan mayo.

41. Bounty Hunter - creamed coconut, toasted nori seaweed, beansprouts, fresh coriander and lime.

42. Mole in the Hole - guacamole with smoked garlic, sliced baked vegan sausages and lollo rosso.

43. Falafeling About  sliced falafel with onions, chilli sauce and shredded cabbage. 

44. Swedish Cobbler vegan Swedish-style "meatballs" with pickle and salad. (Ikea - are you listening?)

45. Sunday Roast  Cheatin beef", horseradish, alfalfa and red onion.

46. Popeye Picnic - roasted perpetual spinach, garlic, vegan mayo, low-sodium salt and crushed black pepper

47. Spotted Dick - vegan cream cheese with raisins and sultanas

48. Salsa Switch - red kidney beans, sweetcorn, jalapeno chilli, tomato paste, onion, gherkins.

49. Squish and Chips  fishless fingers and chips with vegan mayo and lettuce.

50. Hot Pot - hemp seed pate or hemp pesto with onions, alfalfa, Jamaican hot pepper sauce and cucumber.

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## Ryan (Dec 24, 2007)

ZainTheInsane said:


> I find this page incredibly interesting...a couple of my friends as well as my sister are non-meat eaters...and honestly...I can't say I understand it, but kudos to those who can do it.



I can't understand it, either. Meat tastes way too good to quit eating it entirely. 



ZainTheInsane said:


> And more important that getting rid of red meats (I've never seen a problem with them...and depending on your genes you might never see any), is to EXERCISE A LOT. Cardio, Strength training, etc.
> 
> Making yourself healthier is awesome, but exercise, at least in my experience, combined with even a half-way decent diet (not diet as in losing weight, diet as in what you eat), can make you healthier than eating no meat.



I agree. There is no way I could ever give up meat. But I can eat less of it to improve my health. And I've been exercising pretty regularly. I've been lifting weights and running on the treadmill in my apartment complex's fitness room. It's actually pretty easy for me to stay in shape. I just have to put in a little bit of effort.


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## comperic2003 (Jan 4, 2008)

NO SOY. This includes tofu, soy burgers, soybeans, soyprotein chips etc. Soy negatively impacts the thyroid and lowers testosterone levels. The only soy that is okay to eat on occasion is fermented soy, such as soy sauce.

If you still want to eat the same amount of red meat, simply switch over to grass fed beef. It is more expensive and harder to find but, it is healthier. Also, unless you are eating red meat like the superfans, there really is nothing wrong with red meat. There is no evidence that it increases the risk of cancer, nor is there any evidence that saturated fat and cholesterol in food are actually harmful.

So, broccoli is just packed full of protein? So what? Is it a complete protein? No. Does it have a high bioavailibilty? No. Broccoli is a wonderful food, but not for protein.

If you are die hard on limiting red meat then eat more eggs (that means the yolk too) and fish. Stay away from farm raised fish though.


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## k1009 (Jan 4, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> NO SOY. This includes tofu, soy burgers, soybeans, soyprotein chips etc. Soy negatively impacts the thyroid and lowers testosterone levels. The only soy that is okay to eat on occasion is fermented soy, such as soy sauce.



Cite your sources!


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## Jes (Jan 4, 2008)

k1009 said:


> Cite your sources!



The Tin Foil Hat Times and Conspiracy Weekly.


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## comperic2003 (Jan 4, 2008)

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH and HUMAN SERVICES Public Health Service Food and Drug Administration National Center For Toxicological Research Jefferson, Ark. 72079-9502 Daniel M. Sheehan, Ph.D. Director, Estrogen Base Program Division of Genetic and Reproductive Toxicology and Daniel R. Doerge, Ph.D. Division of Biochemical Toxicology February 18, 1999 Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration Rockville, MD 20852

To whom it may concern,

We are writing in reference to Docket # 98P-0683; "Food Labeling: Health Claims; Soy Protein and Coronary Heart Disease." We oppose this health claim because there is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones found in soy, including genistein and equol, a metabolize of daidzen, demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid. This is true for a number of species, including humans.

Additionally, the adverse effects in humans occur in several tissues and, apparently, by several distinct mechanisms. Genistein is clearly estrogenic; it possesses the chemical structural features necessary for estrogenic activity (; Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Tong, et al, 1997; Miksicek, 1998) and induces estrogenic responses in developing and adult animals and in adult humans.

In rodents, equol is estrogenic and acts as an estrogenic endocrine disruptor during development (Medlock, et al, 1995a,b). Faber and Hughes (1993) showed alterations in LH regulation following this developmental treatment with genistein. Thus, during pregnancy in humans, isoflavones per se could be a risk factor for abnormal brain and reproductive tract development.

Furthermore, pregnant Rhesus monkeys fed genistein had serum estradiol levels 50- 100 percent higher than the controls in three different areas of the maternal circulation (Harrison, et al, 1998). Given that the Rhesus monkey is the best experimental model for humans, and that a women's own estrogens are a very significant risk factor for breast cancer, it is unreasonable to approve the health claim until complete safety studies of soy protein are conducted.

Of equally grave concern is the finding that the fetuses of genistein fed monkeys had a 70 percent higher serum estradiol level than did the controls (Harrison, et al, 1998). Development is recognized as the most sensitive life stage for estrogen toxicity because of the indisputable evidence of a very wide variety of frank malformations and serious functional deficits in experimental animals and humans.

In the human population, DES exposure stands as a prime example of adverse estrogenic effects during development. About 50 percent of the female offspring and a smaller fraction of male offspring displayed one or more malformations in the reproductive tract, as well as a lower prevalence (about 1 in a thousand) of malignancies.

In adults, genistein could be a risk factor for a number of estrogen-associated diseases. Even without the evidence of elevated serum estradiol levels in Rhesus fetuses, potency and dose differences between DES and the soy isoflavones do not provide any assurance that the soy protein isoflavones per se will be without adverse effects.

First, calculations, based on the literature, show that doses of soy protein isoflavones used in clinical trials which demonstrated estrogenic effects were as potent as low but active doses of DES in Rhesus monkeys (Sheehan, unpublished data). Second, we have recently shown that estradiol shows no threshold in an extremely large dose-response experiment (Sheehan, et al, 1999), and we subsequently have found 31 dose-response curves for hormone-mimicking chemicals that also fail to show a threshold (Sheehan, 1998a).

Our conclusions are that no dose is without risk; the extent of risk is simply a function of dose. These two features support and extend the conclusion that it is inappropriate to allow health claims for soy protein isolate. Additionally, isoflavones are inhibitors of the thyroid peroxidase which makes T3 and T4. Inhibition can be expected to generate thyroid abnormalities, including goiter and autoimmune thyroiditis. There exists a significant body of animal data that demonstrates goitrogenic and even carcinogenic effects of soy products (cf., Kimura et al., 1976). Moreover, there are significant reports of goitrogenic effects from soy consumption in human infants (cf., Van Wyk et al., 1959; Hydovitz, 1960; Shepard et al., 1960; Pinchers et al., 1965; Chorazy et al., 1995) and adults (McCarrison, 1933; Ishizuki, et al., 1991).

Recently, we have identified genistein and daidzein as the goitrogenic isoflavonoid components of soy and defined the mechanisms for inhibition of thyroid peroxidase (TPO)- catalyzed thyroid hormone synthesis in vitro (Divi et al., 1997; Divi et al., 1996). The observed suicide inactivation of TPO by isoflavones, through covalent binding to TPO, raises the possibility of neoantigen formation and because anti-TPO is the principal autoantibody present in auto immune thyroid disease. This hypothetical mechanism is consistent with the reports of Fort et al. (1986, 1990) of a doubling of risk for autoimmune thyroiditis in children who had received soy formulas as infants compared to infants receiving other forms of milk.

The serum levels of isoflavones in infants receiving soy formula that are about five times higher than in women receiving soy supplements who show menstrual cycle disturbances, including an increased estradiol level in the follicular phase (Setchell, et al, 1997). Assuming a dose-dependent risk, it is unreasonable to assert that the infant findings are irrelevant to adults who may consume smaller amounts of isoflavones.

Additionally, while there is an unambiguous biological effect on menstrual cycle length (Cassidy, et al, 1994), it is unclear whether the soy effects are beneficial or adverse. Furthermore, we need to be concerned about transplacental passage of isoflavones as the DES case has shown us that estrogens can pass the placenta. No such studies have been conducted with genistein in humans or primates. As all estrogens which have been studied carefully in human populations are two-edged swords in humans (Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Sheehan, 1997), with both beneficial and adverse effects resulting from the administration of the same estrogen, it is likely that the same characteristic is shared by the isoflavones. The animal data is also consistent with adverse effects in humans.

Finally, initial data fi-om a robust (7,000 men) long-term (30+ years) prospective epidemiological study in Hawaii showed that Alzheimer's disease prevalence in Hawaiian men was similar to European-ancestry Americans and to Japanese (White, et al, 1996a). In contrast, vascular dementia prevalence is similar in Hawaii and Japan and both are higher than in European-ancestry Americans.

This suggests that common ancestry or environmental factors in Japan and Hawaii are responsible for the higher prevalence of vascular dementia in these locations. Subsequently, this same group showed a significant dose-dependent risk (up to 2.4 fold) for development of vascular dementia and brain atrophy from consumption of tofu, a soy product rich in isoflavones (White, et al, 1996b).

This finding is consistent with the environmental causation suggested from the earlier analysis, and provides evidence that soy (tofu) phytoestrogens causes vascular dementia. Given that estrogens are important for maintenance of brain function in women; that the male brain contains aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol; and that isoflavones inhibit this enzymatic activity (Irvine, 1998), there is a mechanistic basis for the human findings. Given the great difficulty in discerning the relationship between exposures and long latency adverse effects in the human population (Sheehan, 1998b), and the potential mechanistic explanation for the epidemiological findings, this is an important study.

It is one of the more robust, well-designed prospective epidemiological studies generally available. We rarely have such power in human studies, as well as a potential mechanism, and thus the results should be interpreted in this context. Does the Asian experience provide us with reassurance that the isoflavones are safe? A review of several examples lead to the conclusion,  "Given the parallels with herbal medicines with respect to attitudes, monitoring deficiencies, and the general difficulty of detecting toxicities with long Iatencies, I am unconvinced that the long history of apparent safe use of soy products can provide confidence that they are indeed without risk." (Sheehan, 1998b).

It should also be noted that the claim on p. 62978 that soy protein foods are GRAS is in conflict with the recent return by CFSAN to Archer Daniels Midland of a petition for GRAS status for soy protein because of deficiencies in reporting adverse effects in the petition. Thus GRAS status has not been granted. Linda Kahl can provide you with details. It would seem appropriate for FDA to speak with a single voice regarding soy protein isolate. Taken together, the findings presented here are self-consistent and demonstrate that genistein and other isoflavones can have adverse effects in a variety of species, including humans. Animal studies are the front line in evaluating toxicity, as they predict, with good accuracy, adverse effects in humans.

For the isoflavones, we additionally have evidence of two types of adverse effects in humans, despite the very few studies that have addressed this subject. While isoflavones may have beneficial effects at some ages or circumstances, this cannot be assumed to be true at all ages. Isoflavones are like other estrogens in that they are two-edged swords, conferring both benefits and risk (Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Sheehan, 1997).

The health labeling of soy protein isolate for foods needs to considered just as would the addition of any estrogen or goitrogen to foods, which are bad ideas. Estrogenic and goitrogenic drugs are regulated by FDA, and are taken under a physician's care. Patients are informed of risks, and are monitored by their physicians for evidence of toxicity. There are no similar safeguards in place for foods, so the public will be put at potential risk from soy isoflavones in soy protein isolate without adequate warning and information.

Finally, NCTR is currently conducting a long-term multigeneration study of genistein administered in feed to rats. The analysis of the dose range-finding studies are nearly complete now. As preliminary data, which is still confidential, may be relevant to your decision, I suggest you contact Dr. Barry Delclos at the address on the letterhead, or email him.

Sincerely,

Daniel M. Sheehan
Daniel R. Doerge


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## comperic2003 (Jan 4, 2008)

Anderson, et al. "Effect of various genotoxins and reproductive toxins in human lymphocytes and sperm in Comet assay," Teratog Carcinog Mutagen 1997;17(1);29-43

Atanassova N (2000). Comparative Effects of Neonatal Exposure of Male Rats to Potent and Weak (Environmental) Estrogens on Spermatogenesis at Puberty and the Relationship to Adult Testis Size and Fertility: Evidence for Stimulatory Effects of Low Estrogen Levels. Endocrinology Vol. 141, No. 10 3898-3907

Casanova M, et al. "Developmental effects of dietary phytoestrogens in Sprague-Dawley rats and interactions of genistein and diadzein with rat estrogen receptors alpha and beta in vitro," Toxicol Sci 1999 Oct;51(2):236-44

Chorazy PA (1995). Persistent hypothyroidism in an infant receiving a soy formula: case report and review of the literature. Pediatrics Jul: 96 (1 Pt 1): 148-50

Irvine CHG (1998). Phytoestrogens in soy-based infant foods: concentrations, daily intake, and possible biological effects. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med1998 Mar; 217 (3): 247-53)

Kumi-Diaka J, et al. "Cytotoxic potential of the phytochemical genistein isoflavone and certain environmental chemical compounds on testicular cells," Biol Cell, 1999 Sep;91 (7): 515-23

Lohrke B (2001). Activation of skeletal muscle protein breakdown following consumption of soybean protein in pigs. Br J Nutr 2001 Apr; 85 (4): 447-57

Nagata C (2000). Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men. Nutr Cancer; 36 (1): 14-8

Strauss, et al. "Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract," Mol Cell Endocrinol 1998 Sep 25;144(1-2);83-93


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## k1009 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ha. Didn't expect you take it literally. As of the 1st I'm locked out of my uni's databases, but the problem with the soy controversy is that there's so much data available that it's fairly easy to selectively choose that which backs up your (or my) story. 

Anyone with access to something a little fancier than science for paupers care to check these? Or at least list the opposing side's results .


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## comperic2003 (Jan 4, 2008)

Well of course I am going to select studies that support my findings, but chances are, one will not be able to find credible evidence supporting the benefits of soy. The government has been pumping us full of surplus crops for decades. Look at corn. Corn, in some processed form, is in over 40% of grocery products. Soda, candy, cereal, bread, cookies etc. all contain corn. The government had, and currently has, an excess of corn; so, they use it in any way imaginable. Soy is no different. Soy is now in over 50% of all grocery products. Canned tuna for christ's sake contains soy-usually in the form of vegetable oil- now. Originally, the government subsidized the growing of soy as a cheap alternative feed for livestock. Unfortunately, the soy feed had negative effects on the animals' health. So, in an effort to utilize the remaining soy, and the soy that is currently being produced, the government turned it into a "health food" and manufacturers processed the crap out of it and stuck it in almost every packaged food.


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## Dibaby35 (Jan 4, 2008)

I just wanted to add I'm also on the protein bandwagon. Expecially after having WLS (band) you are instructed to get as much protein as you can. Anyways most meat is really hard for me to eat. Just doesn't wanna go through my band very easily so I do eat alot of low-fat (1%) cottage cheese and beans. Hard cheeses are also fabulous. 

Also wanted to add for those following a diabetic diet (glycemic index) tofu is not a good one to be eating. It has a high GI load. Expecially those tofufretti ice cream bars. You better off eating a serving (yes a half a cup) of premium ice cream. Got this info from "The Complete Idiots Guide to the Glycemic Index Weight Loss"


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## Shosh (Jan 4, 2008)

Dibaby35 said:


> I just wanted to add I'm also on the protein bandwagon. Expecially after having WLS (band) you are instructed to get as much protein as you can. Anyways most meat is really hard for me to eat. Just doesn't wanna go through my band very easily so I do eat alot of low-fat (1%) cottage cheese and beans. Hard cheeses are also fabulous.
> 
> Also wanted to add for those following a diabetic diet (glycemic index) tofu is not a good one to be eating. It has a high GI load. Expecially those tofufretti ice cream bars. You better off eating a serving (yes a half a cup) of premium ice cream. Got this info from "The Complete Idiots Guide to the Glycemic Index Weight Loss"



Hey Di,

I also do not eat a lot of meat due to my band. I can eat chicken if it is in a sauce, but steak etc? A distant memory.


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## David Bowie (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm Vegetarian
and i stick with soy protein, nuts and cheese as protein sources

soymilk
morningstar products
tofu
nuts are really great too

ive heard something about something called Quorn thats supposed to be good


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## love dubh (Jan 4, 2008)

David Bowie said:


> I'm Vegetarian
> and i stick with soy protein, nuts and cheese as protein sources
> 
> soymilk
> ...



And you haven't grown a set of tits, yes, right? Cuz you and every other vegetarian is in danger of sporting an improved pair now since the estrogen is soy is dangerous. Apparently. Allegedly. Ambiguously.

Talk to the Chinese and ask how their augmented racks are treating them. They've only been consuming soy products (tofu, tempei, etc) for the past, oh, millenia.


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## David Bowie (Jan 4, 2008)

wellll i do have a set LOL


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## moore2me (Jan 4, 2008)

k1009 said:


> Ha. Didn't expect you take it literally. As of the 1st I'm locked out of my uni's databases, but the problem with the soy controversy is that there's so much data available that it's fairly easy to selectively choose that which backs up your (or my) story.
> 
> Anyone with access to something a little fancier than science for paupers care to check these? Or at least list the opposing side's results .



Consider it done - will report back. Secret squirrel.


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## moore2me (Jan 5, 2008)

From http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

*NCTR* (National Center for Toxicological Research) is a branch of the *FDA* (Food and Drug Adm).The FDA oversees NCTR & has published the following report *Soy: Health Claims for Soy Protein, Questions About Other Components in 2000. *The report cited Dr. Doerge & Dr. Delclos, both whom are still employed at NCTR in Jefferson, Ark and have the following email addresses

[email protected] and [email protected] 
NCTR has the following website http://www.fda.gov/nctr/index.html
*
Now, as to soy proteins, this is a controversial subject, even within the FDA. Overall, whole soy foods offer protective effects as well as some cautionary effects. (Its comparable to estrogen being linked to breast cancer, yet protective against heart disease and other womens aging issues.) * One thing that I did notice, that the authorities seemed to recommend natural soy food over pill forms. These issues are complicated because there are 100s of chemical components in soy compounds  but the report from the FDA that I have linked at the top of this page seems to summarize it pretty good. Overall, they say, there is no reason at this time to exclude whole soy from our (balanced) diets, but they were continuing to study the soy isoflavones & their effect on human health.

The following is quoted from that paper:

Though the research community has varying degrees of concern about a possible "dark side" to soy consumption, one thread runs consistently through its messages: the need for more research for new uses of soy components. The health claim, however, focuses on uses of soy protein that are generally accepted among health professionals as useful for heart-healthy diets.

"FDA continues to monitor the debates about the relative safety of these individual soy components and the scientific research that will eventually resolve them," says the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition's Lewis, "*If new results suggest an increased risk, the agency will modify or refine its policies in light of the new information*."

Daniel Sheehan, Ph.D., director of the Estrogen Knowledge Base Program at FDA's National Center for Toxicological Research, also urges caution in consumption of soy isoflavones. In formal comments submitted to the public record of his own agency while FDA was reviewing the health claim, Sheehan, along with colleague Daniel Doerge, Ph.D., wrote, "While isoflavones may have beneficial effects at some ages or circumstances, this cannot be assumed to be true at all ages. Isoflavones are like other estrogens in that they are two-edged swords, conferring both benefits and risks."

(end quote)

*Moores comments: (I kind of think the researchers who wrote the letter the OP included, reached a truce with FDA management.) In the case of the letter, I think it was real, but it jumped around from subject to subject, was hard to follow, it was confusing, it was old, way too many big words, and was incomplete. Scientists are not necessarily good writers. Heck - there were some sentences in the letter that were over 40 words long - unreadable! *

.


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## comperic2003 (Jan 5, 2008)

love dubh said:


> And you haven't grown a set of tits, yes, right? Cuz you and every other vegetarian is in danger of sporting an improved pair now since the estrogen is soy is dangerous. Apparently. Allegedly. Ambiguously.
> 
> Talk to the Chinese and ask how their augmented racks are treating them. They've only been consuming soy products (tofu, tempei, etc) for the past, oh, millenia.



The Asian defense. Well, turns out it is a fallacy. Dr. Kaayla T. Daniel states in an interview about his new book, The Whole Soy Story, "Peter Golbitz, of Soyatech Inc, a soy-industry information center, reports that the average consumption per year in China, Indonesia, Korea, Japan and Taiwan ranges from 9.3 grams to 36 grams per day. Compare that to a single cup of tofu that weighs in at 252 grams and think about the people you know who are eating soy every day, several times a day.

Others too have reported that Asians eat very little soy. When T. Colin Campbell of Cornell University traveled around China to survey the dietary habits of 6,500 adults in 130 rural villages, he reported that they ate an average of 12 grams of legumes per day. Probably only about one third of this amount is soy. (For some inexplicable reason he never got the figures on soy alone.)".


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## comperic2003 (Jan 5, 2008)

moore2me said:


> *Moore’s comments: (I kind of think the researchers who wrote the letter the OP included, reached a truce with FDA management.) In the case of the letter, I think it was real, but it jumped around from subject to subject, was hard to follow, it was confusing, it was old, way too many big words, and was incomplete. Scientists are not necessarily good writers. Heck - there were some sentences in the letter that were over 40 words long - unreadable! *



The letter is not confusing if you know what they are talking about. Old? It is from 1999. Also, too many big words? I hope that is not a serious criticism.


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## moore2me (Jan 5, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> The letter is not confusing if you know what they are talking about. Old? It is from 1999. Also, too many big words? I hope that is not a serious criticism.



Dear Comperic2003, In answer to your questions/comments - may I qualify my answers? Yes, the letter is confusing to the average person. The letter was written by one highly specialized PhD to another highly specialized PhD and contained many references and words that most people don't use. I am sure it made perfect sense to the small community of toxicologists and bioresearches at the NCTR and FDA - but it would leave the people in my world scratching their heads. 

*It all boils down to who your target audience is.* Since the target audience here is was the DIMS readers (and I am using a WAG - wild, ass, guess), *I imagine the reading level is college level,* but with a general education background. By this I mean, not specialists in medicine, biochemistry, statistics, etc. Of course, as in any group, some exceed this norm and have not achieved it.

Which brings me to the second comment, about the letter's vocabulary - I said it had too many big words. Again, I was referring to the list of words or terms below (I selected from the letter) -* I think if you asked most readers to define the words/terms, they could not tell you what half of them meant.* (Again, this is my WAG.)

genistein
equol
daidzen
estrogenic
estrogenic endocrine disruptor
per se
serum estradiol levels
frank malformations
DES
Prevalence
dose-response experiment
soy protein isolate
thyroid peroxidase which makes T3 and T4
isoflavones are inhibitors of the thyroid peroxidase
demonstrates goitrogenic
goitrogenic isoflavonoid components
inhibition of thyroid peroxidase (TPO)
catalyzed thyroid hormone synthesis in vitro
covalent binding
suicide inactivation
neoantigen formation
anti-TPO
follicular phase
unambiguous
transplacental passage
vascular dementia prevalence
brain atrophy
environmental causation
phytoestrogens
aromatase
mechanistic basis
discerning
epidemiological findings
robust, well-designed prospective epidemiological studies
protein foods are GRAS
in conflict with the recent return by CFSAN

Difficult words in what I assume are sources related to the letter by Sheehan & Doerge:
Comet assay
Spermatogenesis
Sprague-Dawley rats
rat estrogen receptors alpha and beta in vitro
Persistent hypothyroidism
Cytotoxic
skeletal muscle protein breakdown
Inverse association

*Moore's last comment:
(Altho it did not happen in this case, too often technical jargon is used to try and "baffle readers with bullshit". Scientists and people reporting technical information for the public must be vigilant to try and condense issues and make points clear and understandable for the average person.)*


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## David Bowie (Jan 5, 2008)

arent the estrogen lvls in soy so minor that they really dont have an effect?


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## moore2me (Jan 5, 2008)

David Bowie said:


> arent the estrogen lvls in soy so minor that they really dont have an effect?



David,

From what I can tell, the answer to your question is *yes* - if you eat a reasonable amount & eat natural soy products (not pill forms). Natural soy products have many more protective benefits than they have controversial effects, from what I can tell. 

However, phytoestrogens (estrogens from plants) like in soy do mimic estrogen in the human body and can bind to estrogen receptor cites (breast tissue). NCTR and FDA continue to investigate these effects and have made it a priority issue. 
From http://www.fda.gov/nctr/science/journals/text/vol1iss3/rrp0502.htm


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## comperic2003 (Jan 5, 2008)

moore2me said:


> Dear Comperic2003, In answer to your questions/comments - may I qualify my answers? Yes, the letter is confusing to the average person. The letter was written by one highly specialized PhD to another highly specialized PhD and contained many references and words that most people don't use. I am sure it made perfect sense to the small community of toxicologists and bioresearches at the NCTR and FDA - but it would leave the people in my world scratching their heads.
> 
> *It all boils down to who your target audience is.* Since the target audience here is was the DIMS readers (and I am using a WAG - wild, ass, guess), *I imagine the reading level is college level,* but with a general education background. By this I mean, not specialists in medicine, biochemistry, statistics, etc. Of course, as in any group, some exceed this norm and have not achieved it.
> 
> Which brings me to the second comment, about the letter's vocabulary - I said it had too many big words. Again, I was referring to the list of words or terms below (I selected from the letter) -* I think if you asked most readers to define the words/terms, they could not tell you what half of them meant.* (Again, this is my WAG.)



What does it matter if the average reader cannot understand the letter? The letter is not a memo or a piece to published in an informational pamphlet; it is a letter between colleagues. 



moore2me said:


> *Moore's last comment:
> (Altho it did not happen in this case, too often technical jargon is used to try and "baffle readers with bullshit". Scientists and people reporting technical information for the public must be vigilant to try and condense issues and make points clear and understandable for the average person.)*



I don't know how often credible scientists try to manipulate and bamboozle the average reader but, as you said, it did not happen in this case.


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## Neen (Jan 7, 2008)

Beans!! Baked, or in the can.. fantastic! Peanut butter is great..and veggie burger crumbles...or burgers..mmm


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## Dibaby35 (Jan 16, 2008)

Natural peanut butter is sooo good and its naturally sweet. Everyone needs to get away from the sugar stuff. I always find the natural stuff in the refrigerated section.


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## comperic2003 (Jan 16, 2008)

Dibaby35 said:


> Natural peanut butter is sooo good and its naturally sweet. Everyone needs to get away from the sugar stuff. I always find the natural stuff in the refrigerated section.



Really? In the refrigerated section? I always find mine unrefrigerated, on a shelf, usually near the bread.


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## Dibaby35 (Jan 16, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Really? In the refrigerated section? I always find mine unrefrigerated, on a shelf, usually near the bread.




Yeah i think there's one there too..but this kind is only peanuts and salt..period..lol..i think it has something to do with the peanut oil or something. But yeah its always above where the cream cheese is and stuff.


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## comperic2003 (Jan 16, 2008)

Dibaby35 said:


> Yeah i think there's one there too..but this kind is only peanuts and salt..period..lol..i think it has something to do with the peanut oil or something. But yeah its always above where the cream cheese is and stuff.



Yeah my non refrigerated kind is strictly peanuts and salt too. I am assuming that if yours is refrigerated that it does not require mixing before consumption. I have to mix the oil and the ground peanuts in mine for a good 5 minutes to get a solid butter. Then, after mixing, I refrigerate it to simply keep it from separating again.


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## Dibaby35 (Jan 16, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Yeah my non refrigerated kind is strictly peanuts and salt too. I am assuming that if yours is refrigerated that it does not require mixing before consumption. I have to mix the oil and the ground peanuts in mine for a good 5 minutes to get a solid butter. Then, after mixing, I refrigerate it to simply keep it from separating again.



Ahhhh yeah i don't mix it...it be impossible anyways. I like it to sit out a bit before I try to put it on some toast. I have the crunch kind and the nuts are always at the top...but i like it like that now for some reason..lol


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