# Nice Guys finish last



## Ruffie (Nov 11, 2009)

I was talking with a good friend who is a a single guy and has been his entire life (save a couple of relationships that didn't work out). He said to me that women don't want the "nice guy" and he cannot get noticed by women because:
He isn't handsome by societies standards
Would be considered a geek or nerd by some people 
Is a gentleman 

I was talking with a good friend who is a a single guy and has been his entire life (save a couple of relationships that didn't work out). He said to me that women don't want the "nice guy" and he cannot get noticed by women because:
He isn't handsome by societies standards
Would be considered a geek or nerd by some people 
Is a gentleman 

I met a group of guys through a friend many years ago that I wouldn't probably of hung out with because I thought we wouldn't have anything in common. These guys ran the gamut from BHM's to potheads, to bikers, to musicians to D&D nerds. In fact one guy while very handsome was often perceived as gay cause he dressed great, was groomed so well and was very sensitive. Now that hes in Medical School has no problems getting the gals:doh: My friend and I were the token chicks in the group and we used to go out dancing and to the bars together. Over the 6-7 years we hung out I watched these guys try to approach women and once they got them have relationships and and try to figure out the opposite sex. 
Many of the guys even though polite and respectful would get turned down and even rudely blown off for a dance or an offer to buy a drink. I would hear women laughing in the bar about them because they weren't "hot" and were perceived as losers cause they were a bit awkward and nervous in their approach. 

All of this got me to thinking that perhaps we as women sometimes get stuck in looking for all the things we want in a man that we don't look outside of our comfort zone/type. I say this because both my best friend and I didn't marry our "type" of guy but rather gave someone the chance that we perhaps would have written off and she has been married 20 years and I 24. We often talk about how we had persistent guys that we finally gave in LOL. I know that we as humans myself included can be superficial. But I wanted to ask for my guy friends something; Do we as women often unfairly judge people the way we ourselves have been written off and what is it we expect from men that approach us?


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## JMNYC (Nov 11, 2009)

This is my first post in months; I'll make it good if I can.

My experience of myself is that I am mostly ignored in public---walking down the street, for example. I am average-looking and not very tall. During part of my teen years when I first noticed women, my mother cut my hair, my clothes came from department stores and I was pathologically shy.

Yet I have never been without a girlfriend since I was a young teen. 

I have been smart enough in my life to know that what I have to offer isn't going to be appreciated at a bar or dance. I have therefore avoided these places and met partners elsewhere---seminars, at school (slid a cartoon note across a table to a girl I thought was pretty, we ended up together 2 years) or placing personal ads (which is how I met my wife of 8 years, together 13.)

Nerd or no nerd, success or no success with women---like anything else, it can be learned.

You also don't need 10 girls or even 5 or even 2. All you need is one. She isn't in the mob. She is out there in the world, working a job, paying bills, sending and receiving emails, talking on the phone, shopping at the grocery or the mall, and going home alone every night and thinking about what it would be like to come home and to someone there waiting for her, someone decent and nice and respectful and kind and a good person and fun and full of life and mischief and adventure. Someone who pays attention to his finances, whatever their state, who doesn't drink 5 beers before coming home, who calls to let her know if he's going to be late, who holds the door for her even after 10 years, who listens when she's got a problem, who doesn't act like he's a genius and everyone else is stupid, who gets along with her friends and family and her animals, who isn't a jerk behind the wheel, who is open-minded about other lifestyles and people and the world, who is interesting and interested.

Such a woman, in my experience, isn't in a bar watching the door in case a bodybuilder shows up.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 11, 2009)

Ruffie said:


> Many of the guys even though polite and respectful would get turned down and even rudely blown off for a dance or an offer to buy a drink. I would hear women laughing in the bar about them because they weren't "hot" and were perceived as losers cause they were a bit awkward and nervous in their approach.


I had a few experiences with "hot" guys, mostly from the sidelines, but one personal involvement stands out. In 1975 when I was 18, I briefly dated a guy who was 21 and had charm and confidence to spare. He also had a fancy sports car and came from a wealthy family. Girls fawned over him because he was so "hot" and I heard more than a few rude comments about what could he possibly see in a whale like me. It didn't last long because he was more in love with himself than with me. Mr. Narcissist was more interested in proving to himself that he could charm any girl he liked and make her fawn over him (myself included, for a while), than in developing and maintaining a relationship. They fell for it, again and again. 

Later I met and married an engineer, who was extremely awkward and nervous when we first met. Not a "hot" guy in a classic sense, but he sure lights my fires! Methinx engineers know a thing or two about, shall we say, combustion. :smitten:

It's a small small world. In college my niece happened to become friendly with Mr. Narcissist's niece, and now her mother (his sister, who remembered me after all those years) and I are good friends. I saw Mr. Narcissist again at a wedding reception a few months ago, and at age 55 he's still a charming cad. It was amusing to watch him charm the skirts off several other women, while ignoring his own wife. 


JMNYC said:


> You also don't need 10 girls or even 5 or even 2. All you need is one. She isn't in the mob. She is out there in the world, working a job, paying bills, sending and receiving emails, talking on the phone, shopping at the grocery or the mall, and going home alone every night and thinking about what it would be like to come home and to someone there waiting for her, someone decent and nice and respectful and kind and a good person and fun and full of life and mischief and adventure. Someone who pays attention to his finances, whatever their state, who doesn't drink 5 beers before coming home, who calls to let her know if he's going to be late, who holds the door for her even after 10 years, who listens when she's got a problem, who doesn't act like he's a genius and everyone else is stupid, who gets along with her friends and family and her animals, who isn't a jerk behind the wheel, who is open-minded about other lifestyles and people and the world, who is interesting and interested.


Exactly!


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## Ruffie (Nov 11, 2009)

Later I met and married an engineer, who was extremely awkward and nervous when we first met. Not a "hot" guy in a classic sense, but he sure lights my fires! Methinx engineers know a thing or two about, shall we say, combustion. 

I love this line ^5! And great post!

Nerd or no nerd, success or no success with women---like anything else, it can be learned.

I agree hope that I can get my guy friend to see this as well!
Thanks for the eloquent response!


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## mossystate (Nov 11, 2009)

One thing I have noticed about a lot of the ' nice guys ' is, they still want very particular kinds of women. Many of them are not open to just anybody, no matter the physical appearance...job...education level...etc.. I think everybody ' writes off ' others. It only becomes a problem when it is ' you ' who is not getting the people you think you deserve.
Now, those who truly willing to give a larger group of women a chance, and they still can't find a partner, then you either have an issue of some really crappy luck/tons of snots in the world...or you might need to really think about your own expectations, and the chances you are giving.

I just personally find this nice guys finish last thing to be a lot of smoke and mirrors, for the most part. Lots more to it, when you scratch the surface. Oh...also...when a man has to always mention how nice he is ( and some do )...those are the men you wave to, as you speed away. A truly nice person ( and that can look different ways to different people ), they don't beat that drum/blame.


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## olwen (Nov 11, 2009)

Ruffie, I have a friend who would always go for the hottest girls in the room and get shot down every time. It wasn't that he wasn't a nice guy, cause he was, still is, it's that his approach was just a mess. He had greasy hair and dressed kinda sloppy like and he would sort of crowd the woman he was attracted to. The only word I can use to describe his approach is skeevy. It took him a while to realize he had to clean himself up and change his attitude before approaching women. Now he's a snazzy dresser and has learned to be more charming and he has learned it's more about rapport than about notches on his belt. He gets dates now, and has had a few gfs. So I gotta wonder if your friend did something similar - just zoom in on the hottest girl in the room cause they think they should rather than talking to women they have a rapport with and then asking them out. In other words it could just be his attitude more than anything else.

On the other hand, yeah sometimes women do have really high expectations and sometimes some women might think that they don't have to do anything to snag a guy except look good which would lead them to believe they can pick and choose at their leisure and not bother to develop good people skills, which means they could be missing out on a great guy.

Either way, we all gotta learn how to date and how to approach people we're interested in and then how to maintain relationships. Some just take longer than others I suppose.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 11, 2009)

> Oh...also...when a man has to always mention how nice he is ( and some do )...those are the men you wave to, as you speed away. A truly nice person ( and that can look different ways to different people ), they don't beat that drum/blame.



When i saw the title of this thread I was coming here to post exactly this. Any guy I've ever encountered who made the self-pitying "Oh women just don't like nice guys" spiel fell into one of a few categories:

1. They're not actually nice. I've had not one, but two men who were actually *in relationships* give me this line before they hit on me.

2. They may be nice but have many other objectionable qualities that turn women off such as being socially awkward, pushing, or even have issues such as a gambling problem or a life situation a woman does not want to deal with.

3. They confuse "nice" with desperate and think they can make women like them by behaving a certain way. It's the man who laments how he _always_ opens doors/picks the woman up at the airport/watches her kids for her when she has to work late/always picks up the check/has good manners and yet he's not getting showered with female attention. You can't make somebody like you, and also if you do nice things just to make people like you rather than because you genuinely want to, it shows.

To me it's kind of like a very beautiful woman who behaves rudely to others, is stuck up and shallow, is catty to other females, and treats men like doormats and then says "Oh I don't have a boyfriend because men are intimidated by me" when the fact is she does not have a boyfriend because while she's beautiful, she's a jerk. The beauty won't cancel out bad behaviour.


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## jtgw (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow this is an interesting topic, and a propos of what I was talking about in another thread.

I don't think it's just because nice guys are actually jerks in nice guy clothing, although some may be. I think that you may be genuinely nice, but you miss those other qualities that make for sexual attraction. And I don't just mean looks, I mean the confident and interesting personality. I agree that nice guys may have unpleasant qualities like desperation, but that is a consequence of their not getting any because they are not attractive and they don't know how to BE attractive. It then feeds a vicious cycle of lack of confidence, leading to more unsuccess, leading to more unconfidence.

The great thing for most guys is that, since women are more into certain personalities than certain looks, you can actual train yourself to be attractive. For a lot of men, that involves a whole workover of their life and attitude, rather than the relatively superficial stuff like knowing how to flirt and how to talk to and approach women. The latter part only comes off right when youre secure in your self-image. If you are in that vicious cycle I described, you have to figure out how to break out of it and join the virtuous cycle of confidence, leading to success leading to confidence and so on.


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## Jes (Nov 11, 2009)

JMNYC said:


> You also don't need 10 girls or even 5 or even 2. All you need is one. She isn't in the mob. She is out there in the world, working a job, paying bills, sending and receiving emails, talking on the phone, shopping at the grocery or the mall, and going home alone every night and thinking about what it would be like to come home and to someone there waiting for her, someone decent and nice and respectful and kind and a good person and fun and full of life and mischief and adventure. Someone who pays attention to his finances, whatever their state, who doesn't drink 5 beers before coming home, who calls to let her know if he's going to be late, who holds the door for her even after 10 years, who listens when she's got a problem, who doesn't act like he's a genius and everyone else is stupid, who gets along with her friends and family and her animals, who isn't a jerk behind the wheel, who is open-minded about other lifestyles and people and the world, who is interesting and interested.
> 
> .



Loved everything about your post. I've felt the way you describe above many, many times. At the end of the day, no matter what we look like or act like or are, most of us are just looking for an honest-to-god connection with another human being. It's both harder, and easier, than we think it is.


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## Teleute (Nov 11, 2009)

Posted in the lounge thread too, but I feel it's so damn good:


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## Carrie (Nov 11, 2009)

JMNYC said:


> *This is my first post in months; I'll make it good if I can.*
> 
> My experience of myself is that I am mostly ignored in public---walking down the street, for example. I am average-looking and not very tall. During part of my teen years when I first noticed women, my mother cut my hair, my clothes came from department stores and I was pathologically shy.
> 
> ...


I'm with Jes. You made it good, alright. Really good.


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## ThatFatGirl (Nov 11, 2009)

Am I the only one who saw the thread title from the front page and quickly clicked over, thinking it was a discussion about oral pleasures? That's where my mind is currently. 

Regarding the topic, I've always been attracted to "the nice guy" and have been fortunate to have found one that likes me back just as much. My one time experience with the typical bad boy hottie (actually he wasn't that typical... when we met he was wearing leather chaps over jeans, and he was straight) ended with me broken-hearted as he dumped me for a friend.


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## goofy girl (Nov 11, 2009)

I don't think nice guys finish last at all. 

I do think that is used as an excuse by guys that are overly shy, socially awkward, overly sensitive, needy, clingy or inexperienced. 

Just because someone is shy and quiet does NOT make them a nice guy. It makes them shy and quiet-they can still be a huge asshole.

I think many women go through the phase were they are attracted to the bad boy type, but in the end most of us realize that we would like to be with a nice guy.


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## comaseason (Nov 11, 2009)

goofy girl said:


> I don't think nice guys finish last at all.
> 
> *I do think that is used as an excuse by guys that are overly shy, socially awkward, overly sensitive, needy, clingy or inexperienced.
> 
> ...



I agree completely, especially with the bolded statements.

I always feel like when guys say this they are blaming women for their lot. As if it's some genetic plot for the nice-guy never to get the girl, "I should totally have a woman - but you know women they don't like nice guys". That's bullshit. I know tons of nice guys, including the nerdy types, that have awesome partners. I could say the opposite and it would be equally offensive to some guys, what is the one that some single women like to say... "All the good ones are either married or gay"?

Take some responsibility. Look inward. Accept the fact that you weren't the right person for someone you liked or were attracted to or that the timing was bad, whatever. It happens to ALL of us at some point in our lives men and women.

And seriously some of the biggest assholes I've ever met were the shy/quiet type.


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## superodalisque (Nov 11, 2009)

goofy girl said:


> I don't think nice guys finish last at all.
> 
> I do think that is used as an excuse by guys that are overly shy, socially awkward, overly sensitive, needy, clingy or inexperienced.
> 
> Just because someone is shy and quiet does NOT make them a nice guy. It makes them shy and quiet-they can still be a huge asshole.



i agree with you. a truly nice guy is confident and it spreads to the woman he is with. when you are really nice you aren't always focused on yourself and what you want so much that you are often pushing people away. nice guys don't always feel other people are mean and will reject them just for being who they are. they don't have that kind of outlook on life. the others are usually too wrapped up in whatever short comings they think they have to be able to respond appropriately to a woman's real needs- closeness, intimacy, communication,emotional connection and the ability to love. they are great to have as friends but as compassionate intimate companions they don't always turn out to be so nice since they are always focused on thier negative feelings about themselves and not enough on creating positive feelings between themselves and someone else. 

i've noticed that thier women friends always seem to feel they are a great guys because the relationship they have with them is not quite as close and they don't get to see the same insecurities. there isn't quite as much on the line so the guy can relax. their friends only get half of the story and often get angry with women the guy tries to date because they don't really know the entire history. i also agree with JMNYC that a guy who depends on bars etc... to find women is already in trouble and has odd judgement about how people really meet and begin to know each other. bars are usually where the perenially single go to meet.

all of the really good guys that i know are sweet, committed, easy to talk to and compassionate. and, they definitely aren't blaming anyone else for their plight in life since they are too busy working hard trying to take control of it in positive ways.


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## bdog (Nov 11, 2009)

People just have different boundaries about how they prioritize their feelings vs another person's feelings. People who put their feelings first can come across as mean, and putting other people first can come across as 'nice'.

I think men and women with lower self-esteems can very easily end up on the 'nicer' side of the spectrum. 

There's something attractive about taking what's yours, about knowing what you stand for and going for it. If you can do this and be nice... bonus points.


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## Ernest Nagel (Nov 11, 2009)

Many people, both men and women, tend to be attracted to partners that will raise their status within their existing social network and/or move them into a more prestigious network. A greater value often attaches to scarcity; what is more rare is worth more. Great beauty, wealth, power, etc. are thusly strong attractants by virtue of their rarity. Many people will compete for the right to mate with these uncommon individuals because, in a Darwinian sense, it assumptively increases their odds of survival.

Niceness just isn't all that rare. Many, if not most guys are nice enough, given a chance. So are most girls. Unfortunately the biological imperative tends to favor superficial characteristics. Fortunately, after the adolescent rutting and preening, there are usually plenty of nice girls left over for the nice guys. 

That said, it has always been easier for less attractive girls to get laid than less attractive guys. I _generally_ attribute this to the fact that women are _slightly_ less superficial than men, while men tend to be significantly more desperate than women. Net effect is a few nice guys who don't know how to market themselves and/or give up too soon are inevitably left out in the cold. 

The above notwithstanding I basically agree with JMNYC. You can't blame women for a disproportionate number of unattached nice guys. :bow:


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## KHayes666 (Nov 11, 2009)

Nice guys do finish last.

2-3 years ago I was driving around my "friends", paying for their stuff and other chaufferish things. I wasn't dating anyone meanwhile the couples I knew would make out right in front of me. Every girl I tried to be nice to even said I try to hard and said my generosity was a TURN OFF. Yes, one girl (a former cheerleader) said that she's more attracted to assholes because they're more of a challenge.

Then I flipped a switch about a year ago. It started when I had 15 dollars in my wallet and was with 2 "friends" who were glorified bitches who never wanted to hang out unless they had to be driven or wanted me to buy something. They said "Lets go to IHOP" and I said "I'm not paying for you guys, forget it." They said "No, we have money, promise" I relented and soon I drove them to IHOP, the meals come and go and then the check arrives....and the 2 girls bolt out the door as fast as they could, leaving me with a 45 dollar bill with no credit card and 15 in my hand. I had to beg and plead with the waitress to let me pay for my check because the 2 stiffed me and thankfully she let me go. I got into the car and the girls were giggling at what they did and I snapped, not there though...oh no. We were about 15 miles from the closest of the 2 houses so I turned my GPS on, drove about halfway there.....then pulled over and kicked them the fuck out of my car. They get out swearing at me and frantically calling their friends trying to get a ride home and I pulled away feeling much better.

Soon I stopped giving rides to just about everyone, I stopped paying for their shit and I stopped hanging out in crowds where I was third wheel.....my "friends" dissappeared and I was left alone. But then I started hanging with new people that didn't care about money, that could pay for themselves and always included me in their hangouts. The girls I was dating also got a similar dose of my new attitude but on a smaller scale, yes I can pay for movie tickets but I also wanted the same affection I was giving, back.

I also stopped dating the kind of girls I was before, the high profile types that think about themselves more than about the couple. I started putting my foot down on things by telling them not to smooch with other guys, telling them not to do drugs directly in front of me and most of all, don't insult my friends. The final straw was when I almost got arrested for doing 125 in a 55 zone during rush hour, speeding my way to Providence, RI to make sure the girl I was dating wasn't late for school after her car broke down. Within a month, we weren't talking anymore....and that's when I stopped going out of my way for ppl I felt didn't deserve it. Needless to say, I started dating less but I was turning over a new leaf.

Now, I'm dating an absolute sweetheart who shows the same affection to me that I do to her. She has her own job so I don't have to pay for anything, and since she doesn't drive, she lets me sleep over so I don't have to drive 100 miles in one night like other ppl would. 

So yea....when I was being super sweet to girls, driving my friends around and throwing money away, I was walked all over. Now that I'm much stingier than I used to be....I'm actually happy. I can't speak for everyone obviously, but in my personal experiences nice guys do finish last.


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## bdog (Nov 11, 2009)

KHayes666 said:


> I can't speak for everyone obviously, but in my personal experiences nice guys do finish last.



No offense, Kevin, but you've proven that chumps and pushovers finish last. I'm glad you're doing better now and good for you for not putting up with horseshit. You can still be nice, though.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 11, 2009)

Kevin the difference here is you were being nice to people who did not deserve it and did not appreciate it. A classier woman would have been appreciative and honest towards you.

If a woman picks up men at bars, sleeps with every guy on the first date, and generally shows a lack of self respect when it comes to sharing and valuing her body, she can't then turn around and say "Men don't like women who like sex". 

If a woman is very sexual but waits for the right man or waits for a situation that is monogamous or one or both is an open relationship and she then displays her wild side, he's going to love it.

Men no doubt do love women who are very sexually adventurous, have high sex drives, love to try new things and always try to accomodate requests. That doesn't mean they're going to ask the town slut to be their girlfriend b/c she's willing to fuck anything that moves.

Sharing your good heart, generosity, sensitivity, caring, and willingness to make somebody's life easier are all good things, they just need to be directed as those who are going to appreciate them and receive them graciously rather than being dishonest and manipulative.


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## Fascinita (Nov 11, 2009)

I've had some self-described "nice guys" get really mad at me and do some pretty rotten things when I didn't reciprocate their interest. I've seen it happen to my girlfriends, too.

To paraphrase Mrs. Gump: Nice is as nice does.


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## Fascinita (Nov 11, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> If a woman picks up men at bars, sleeps with every guy on the first date, and generally shows a lack of self respect when it comes to sharing and valuing her body, she can't then turn around and say "Men don't like women who like sex".



I find this statement somewhat prudish and a bit misogynistic. And while prudery is not a crime, misogyny is not allowed on this board. It offends the sensibilities of people who think a little more highly of women.

Let's not perpetuate stereotypes about "loose" women who sleep around and don't value or respect themselves. Please. Thanks.


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## LisaInNC (Nov 11, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> To me it's kind of like a very beautiful woman who behaves rudely to others, is stuck up and shallow, is catty to other females, and treats men like doormats and then says "Oh I don't have a boyfriend because men are intimidated by me" when the fact is she does not have a boyfriend because while she's beautiful, she's a jerk. The beauty won't cancel out bad behaviour.



Thats so funny you say that!! In the past, guys have asked me why I was single. I was too pretty to be single. When I was honest and told them I am single because I am a raging bitch, they never believed me.


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## cheekyjez (Nov 11, 2009)

"Nice" is kind of a poorly defined word. I'd say that "nice" has to refer to someone's motives rather than just their behavior. If you're genuinely nice - doing favours for people for their own benefit rather than because you want something - then you're not trying to "finish" at all. 

I had a friend at college who had some severe social awareness problems - he was hauled up in front of the Dean several times for stalking women around... he had no idea how to start a conversation and so would just be around in the hope that they would start talking to him. 

He asked me once "why does XXXX, who's such a nice person, go out with YYYY, who's really not?" And the answer was that he was nice TO HER and probably had other good qualities - how he treated the college stalker didn't really enter into her dating evaluation.

Typically when a guy complains that "women only want jerks", by "jerks" he means men who are confident and assertive enough to actually express their desires to a woman rather than just kind of do her favours in the hope that she'll fall for him. 

I don't think women, on the whole, date men based on their "type" - at least not past high school. I don't think women should be obliged to "give a chance" to a guy who's helped her move house and listened to her talk.

Oh, and as to this:


> I was talking with a good friend who is a a single guy and has been his entire life (save a couple of relationships that didn't work out).


As Dan Savage would say, all relationships don't work out until you find one that does.


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## mossystate (Nov 11, 2009)

You know...this is probably a thread best left to the lounge...or the weight board. A place where any ' side ' can be free to talk about " glorified bitches " and " town sluts "...and ' appropriate ' women. 
This is really not a ' bbw issue '.


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## Ruffie (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks for all the responses folks! I will certainly share them with my friend the next time I see him. And hope that we continue to get some great posts here. 

And Super I loved this point you made;

i've noticed that thier women friends always seem to feel they are a great guys because the relationship they have with them is not quite as close and they don't get to see the same insecurities. there isn't quite as much on the line so the guy can relax.

I had never thought about it from that point of view before. But it makes sense cause we were all so very comfy with each other that it never occured to me that there would be no insecurities or a front cause I am their married female friend. Thanks!


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## Tania (Nov 11, 2009)

cheekyjez said:


> As Dan Savage would say, all relationships don't work out until you find one that does.



I think this pretty much sums it up. Really great relationships are rarer than everyone's led to believe, as it takes most of us a damn long time to learn how to navigate not only our own hearts, but also the vast, dark, and perilous forest that is human nature (exemplified by the people we date, or try to date).


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## Ruffie (Nov 11, 2009)

mossystate said:


> You know...this is probably a thread best left to the lounge...or the weight board. A place where any ' side ' can be free to talk about " glorified bitches " and " town sluts "...and ' appropriate ' women.
> This is really not a ' bbw issue '.



Mods feel free to move it if you desire or delete it. My intention was simply to see what women felt about the "nice guy" issue for some perspective to aid my friend. Didn't and don't want it to be a train wreck thread.
Ruth


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## BBW4Chattery (Nov 12, 2009)

Jes said:


> Loved everything about your post. I've felt the way you describe above many, many times. At the end of the day, no matter what we look like or act like or are, most of us are just looking for an honest-to-god connection with another human being. It's both harder, and easier, than we think it is.



Loved everything YOU wrote... but I'm out of rep.

Harder and easier than I think it is gives me some hope... thanks.


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## Inhibited (Nov 12, 2009)

I like it when guys just come up and talk to me and the conversation flows, i never have any idea if i'm being hit on or not until the end of the night even then i'm sometimes clueless..

I don't really like it when they ask for a date, but more like a casual catch up, such as, i'm going to be at such and such a place tomorrow you should come and have a drink.

I don't really have a type, for me it really is based on personality, i have posted in the hot boy thread pics of JOhn mayer, it wasn't until i seen him in interviews and seen his personality that i thought he was "hot", its the same in real life as well.


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## Lovelyone (Nov 12, 2009)

I guess I will play devil's advocate and say that some nice guys really do finish last. While I am sure that some men use the "I am a nice guy and they always finish last" routine as a way to get sympathy, there are also REALLY nice guys out there who really do finish last.

I know some guys who get shot down everytime they approach a woman. To every single woman they approach, they are invisible,dont fit the bill, and immediately they are dismissed without even getting a chance to talk to the women. The ladies shoot them down without even having a short conversation with them (Usually after accepting an expensive drink from them). These guys are sincere, kind, thoughtful, considerate, and polite. They just dont fit the "handsome" bill and are often made to feel as if they aren't worth the time of day. The funny thing is, these guys ARE handsome. They are the kind of handsome that you see when you really like someone. The kind of handsome that you don't see right away...cos it takes their personality for that handsomeness to shine through. I think that given a chance by one of those ladies, they would have seen that these guys were the kind of men that would treat them right and love them unconditionally.. Just my 2-cents worth.


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## Sugar (Nov 12, 2009)

You know, there is some truth for me to the idea that I stayed in my comfort zone and it yielded no results. For some reason for years I went for the tattooed jobless good time Jesse James/Jeremiah Johnson wanna be. Then one day a very clean cut sensitive family oriented guy started talking to me. He's handsome by society's standards, but he wasn't my type. After a while I opened up and I'm glad I did. Turns out I met my match. 

I really don't subscribe to the notion that good guys finish last. If your relationships keep failing...what's the common denominator? You have to look at your actions. Take your responsibility for your part in every single relationship as well as how you approach a potential partner.


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## bmann0413 (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm a single, nice guy. Been that way for a long while. Girls tend to throw me in the friend zone, however. I'm used to it by now though. Of course, there aren't that many single females around here that's close to my age anyways. Most of them are either in a relationship or already married, no joke.

Anyways, who knows? Maybe nice guys do finish last. Right at the moment, though, I don't give a damn. lol


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## Tina (Nov 12, 2009)

I find your post to be so true, Sugar. One author said she kept falling for the same guy, he just always had a different face. Until she was able to break out of that pattern of choosing, the relationships were never rewarding.


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## James (Nov 12, 2009)

Nice guys finish last...

Depends what type of a race you are running and how you define winning it?


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## KHayes666 (Nov 12, 2009)

bdog said:


> No offense, Kevin, but you've proven that chumps and pushovers finish last. I'm glad you're doing better now and good for you for not putting up with horseshit. You can still be nice, though.



I guess you're right. The funny part was a lot of people, especially on here, have already and would point out I'm far from a nice guy no matter how well I take care of my friends.

Which is fine by me, there are those that I have a big bunch of bananas for and I can tell them where to stick each and every one of them.



LoveBHMS said:


> Kevin the difference here is you were being nice to people who did not deserve it and did not appreciate it. A classier woman would have been appreciative and honest towards you.
> 
> If a woman picks up men at bars, sleeps with every guy on the first date, and generally shows a lack of self respect when it comes to sharing and valuing her body, she can't then turn around and say "Men don't like women who like sex".
> 
> ...



Well I have no comment on the sex part, that's an entirely different animal then what I'm talking about.

However I can say the girl I'm with now has shown her appreciation of me in a way that chokes me up thinking about it. I lent her tape the first night I met her to tape the back of her phone until she could get it fixed. Well she got the phone fixed and kept the tape, saying she'll remember me by it. For all the similar times I kept stuff to remember girls by, the same girls and most of my friends called me "creepy" for wanting to remember them that way and here my g/f is doing the same thing for me. There are also no trust or money issues at all. 

Its a whole new experience for me to be with someone who DOESN'T want me to buy her stuff and doesn't want me to get things for her that are 2 feet away every single time I'm near. Not to mention its great to know I can go out of my way for someone that will do the same for me, I'm not used to that. Hell, I won't name names but there is one bbw friend of mine who told me she EXPECTS someone to wait on women hand and foot and worship them as goddesses because that's the treatment she gets.....needless to say we'd never last if we were together. Granted, if someone had a dehibilitating disease, was an old timer or had a major injury where mobility is a problem, I can completely understand waiting on someone. If one of my friends was laid up in a bed with either broken bones or a serious illness, I'd do whatever they wanted to make them feel better no questions asked. Otherwise get your damn socks yourself, its right next to ya!


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

cheekyjez said:


> As Dan Savage would say, all relationships don't work out until you find one that does.



OT - and not attacking you or the Savage - (I know you're both using "work out" in the sense of "lasting forever".)

Just 'cos a relationship has come to an end - doesn't mean that it didn't "work out"* while it lasted, nor that it was somehow "a failure". All things are temporary - including life. 

I'm still friends with at least two of my ex-LTR gfs and just cos we're no longer together it doesn't invalidate what we had together as lovers, back then. Nor does it stop me caring about them as friends, now. I count that as a double-win.

(* In the sense of being exciting, loving, caring and all around awesome, at the time.)


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 12, 2009)

KHayes666 said:


> Which is fine by me, there are those that I have a big bunch of bananas for and I can tell them where to stick each and every one of them.



How ... nice?   

On the topic at hand: I have heard the "nice guys/girls finish last" line a time or two million in my lifetime. I've never bought it. It implies something very unpleasant about the people who have rejected the "nice" person's advances (assuming that they were made in the first place): That they're shallow, that they're fickle, that conventionally attractive and outgoing people by simple default can't possibly be nice. And those assumptions are anything *but* nice.

To me, a genuinely kind person doesn't question what other people are doing wrong. He/she looks within first, and does some internal house cleaning. People who are afraid of being rejected, who are shy or socially awkward, need to work on those issues without assuming that they're going to be rejected out-of-hand by some "meanie" who can't look beyond the social ineptitude (or that rejection is bad or even a personal thing - we *all* get shot down at times; some of us are just better at brushing it off). Nobody is owed a chance. When I was single, I didn't think that a man who bought me a drink -- especially when I didn't solicit it -- bought my time to go along with the drink. I didn't owe him a damn thing, with exception to a polite "Thanks for the drink!" Many people are, frankly, just not willing to give someone a chance to showcase an appealing personality, if there's not an initial spark. I've been at the receiving end of that, and I've never assumed that the person who shot me down is shallow. He's just not interested. Move on time. 

Not to mention, I agree with Sarah: Socially awkward, shy, or introverted people aren't by default nice. They are just ... shy, introverted, socially awkward. Every time someone that I know has thrown the "but I'm a nice guy, why do I keep getting rejected?!?!" card out onto the table, *I* have known that there are other issues that are the real culprit. And have also known that if I illuminate, the "nice guy" isn't going to hear a damn thing that I have to say, because he's not interested in looking within. He needs to feel that what's happening to him is an external event.


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## dragorat (Nov 12, 2009)

*I won't say I'm a nice guy perse but I try to be a gentleman.As far as finishing last,I don't seem to finish at all in the sense of a permanent,1 on 1 relationship.I have many lady friends.I just don't seem to hold on to a single relationship.I even had 1 lady say i was TOO NICE.It doesn't stop me from looking but it does occasionally put me in a bit of a funk.I go thru a little depression but I come out of it & go on.Ruffie I think I know your "friend" & I keep telling him the same thing.Just go on with life & something is bound to happen sooner or later.*


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## BothGunsBlazing (Nov 12, 2009)

The one thing I can't stand about anyone who uses the "nice guy" title or anyone who pulls that card is that it generally goes along with the person having a wishy washy personality. I can't stand that. They're afraid to disagree with you, they just go along with everything you say in fear of crossing you in any way. It's so very grating. The type of person who has a personality like playdough and tries to mold it as they go along in the way they best think you'd prefer them.


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> How ... nice?
> 
> On the topic at hand: I have heard the "nice guys/girls finish last" line a time or two million in my lifetime. I've never bought it. It implies something very unpleasant about the people who have rejected the "nice" person's advances (assuming that they were made in the first place): That they're shallow, that they're fickle, that conventionally attractive and outgoing people by simple default can't possibly be nice. And those assumptions are anything *but* nice.
> 
> ...



And sometimes it is. External to you*. The people you might desire (cos this goes for "nice" girls too) might not be "into" you for a whole host of reasons that do not reflect badly on you, nor on them. Vast and varied is human experience, life and desire. There'll be a whole host of "missed connections" for everytime you do "click" with someone. Everyone gets shot down. You just gotta get back up again.

(*Assuming here that your basic hygiene and social skills are in operation.)

Edited to bold the bit where we are agreeing!  which I didn't spot before. :doh:


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## Ruffie (Nov 12, 2009)

dragorat said:


> *I won't say I'm a nice guy perse but I try to be a gentleman.As far as finishing last,I don't seem to finish at all in the sense of a permanent,1 on 1 relationship.I have many lady friends.I just don't seem to hold on to a single relationship.I even had 1 lady say i was TOO NICE.It doesn't stop me from looking but it does occasionally put me in a bit of a funk.I go thru a little depression but I come out of it & go on.Ruffie I think I know your "friend" & I keep telling him the same thing.Just go on with life & something is bound to happen sooner or later.*



See that is just the thing Drago. I have had many friends that have been through this. I have been described as a guys woman as my male friends say I think more like a man than any woman they have ever known. I have watched their interactions, relationships, and had women ask me about them and their awkwardness and tried to share with them the perceptions shared with me. One of the fellas that triggered this thread is one that I used to hang out with alot over a decade ago. He has been engaged twice since we were regular hang out friends and just recently broke up with fiance number 2 and was kinda doing some self reflection and working on moving on when we ran onto each other. When I first met him he was living at home with mom and dad. Eventually he met and got involved with a gal i was also friends with. I saw him as a super nice guy who in my opinion was too good for the first lady that he was with. He put up with alot of drama from her, parented her kids, cooked and cleaned, did home improvements and from all I saw and heard from both of them of their relationship was very good to her. It ended shortly after she and I parted ways as friends and he and I talked briefly about it when we ran into one another. Didn't get to know the second girl cause as I said we weren't hanging out together anymore. But this guy collected hot wheels cars, plays D&D and is super tall and thin. So despite his other good qualities women didn't always give him play when we were out together as a group to listen to music or go dancing. 
I think that people have perceptions about what they deserve and want. And even unconsciously those energies are felt and play into how people deal with someone. It was that group of guys that when I bemoaned the fact that when I was single I didn't get play and assumed it was cause I was fat. And they said no we see guys looking at you when we are out and even maybe crossing the floor to talk to you but then this wall goes up and you shut em down. Made me realize that I had to really own who I was and what I have to offer as a person so that it is perceived by others. I guess I was just feeling for some of these great guys I know that like yourself have so much to give but can't seem to find anyone to gift their love to and wondering what people would have to say about that.


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## jtgw (Nov 12, 2009)

Lovelyone said:


> I guess I will play devil's advocate and say that some nice guys really do finish last. While I am sure that some men use the "I am a nice guy and they always finish last" routine as a way to get sympathy, there are also REALLY nice guys out there who really do finish last.
> 
> I know some guys who get shot down everytime they approach a woman. To every single woman they approach, they are invisible,dont fit the bill, and immediately they are dismissed without even getting a chance to talk to the women. The ladies shoot them down without even having a short conversation with them (Usually after accepting an expensive drink from them). These guys are sincere, kind, thoughtful, considerate, and polite. They just dont fit the "handsome" bill and are often made to feel as if they aren't worth the time of day. The funny thing is, these guys ARE handsome. They are the kind of handsome that you see when you really like someone. The kind of handsome that you don't see right away...cos it takes their personality for that handsomeness to shine through. I think that given a chance by one of those ladies, they would have seen that these guys were the kind of men that would treat them right and love them unconditionally.. Just my 2-cents worth.



Right I'm glad you added this.

People who blame shy nice guys for their shyness are as bad as shy nice guys who blame women for not being attracted to them. Attraction, as I've been saying repeatedly, has nothing to do with morality. A strong moral character is desirable for many reasons, but it has nothing per se to do with sexiness.

So a shy guy who has no success with women shouldn't BLAME himself for his shyness. Nor should he blame women for not being attracted to his moral character. After all, as others have pointed out, what he finds attractive in women has nothing to do with THEIR moral character! Such a guy should treat his attractiveness as he should treat his physical fitness: something he can consider and practice on in an objective, non-moralizing manner. If his goal is to attract women, he should work on himself and do what it takes to be attractive.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Everyone gets shot down. You just gotta get back up again.



I think that this is a key point, Jos. People who personalize rejection have a very difficult time with putting themselves out there, and that leads right back to missing opportunities that may have otherwise been available. 

It is very, very difficult to move beyond one's comfort zone and I don't mean to minimize it because I get that we can genuinely feel paralyzed, even downright crippled, by our fear - whatever that issue may be. But externalizing the issue is never going to solve the problem. If I was single, looking for a relationship, and kept getting shot down at every turn ... eventually I'd start to wonder what I was doing wrong. The first step in that would be to challenge any assumptions that I may be making about the people who are rejecting me -- not to mention, any feelings that I may have that other people owe me _anything_, which includes something as seemingly innocuous as a friendly conversation. I've been with my husband for 22 years - more than half of my life. I know that my input on this topic is ... from a very insular distance. Still, I do remember being approached by people whom I had no interest in, and it can be very, very awkward for the one doing the rejecting as well. I'm not going to want to vest in an extended, friendly conversation with someone whom I know has hope for more than that. And I also know that the reasons I have rejected people in the past have been varied, from "he didn't smell good" to "he didn't look good to me" and, having nothing at all to do with him ... "I'm just not ready for this." That is why I do not assume that rejection (any kind) = me bad. Pick myself up, dust myself off, put myself out there again. Easier said than done, and at times I've failed miserably at it. I just don't blame other people for what is holding *me* back.


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## Tad (Nov 12, 2009)

A few thoughts, now that this is in the lounge.

- have you ever eaten salba (aka Salvia hispanica)? It is some sort of see from central/south america which is just ridiculously nutritious, it is pretty much everything good you could squeeze into one food. It also has the approximate texture and taste of sawdust, which is why the odds are good that you've not eaten it, or not often. Some nice guys are salba, they might be good for you, but that does mean that you enjoy being with them (or more critically: that you end up feeling any sort of passion for them). 

- Some people are more in demand in the world of dating than others. Those in demand have lots of people trying to impress them. If you are going to play in that league, you'd better learn the game. Not all dating is a competitive sport, but if the object of your desire treats it that way, and you don't know how to play that game (if only defensively), you will probably not do so well. Letting someone cut in front of you on the freeway = nice, letting someone cut in front of you in formula one race = loser. If you won't play those games, learn to find other people who don't either.

- When you constantly try to serve someone, that is compliment them, laugh at their jokes, tell them how great they are, get them stuff, buy them stuff, do what they want.....you are sending a message that you are their servant and they are your superior. Not many women want to date a guy who sets himself up as her inferior. Which isn't to say you can't be nice, but how you frame it/approach it makes a huge difference, I think.

- Everyone has their preferences. If a lot of people's preferences don't include you, yah you will have a harder time. I got a good lesson in this fairly young, with one friend's younger sister. She was always all over a couple of the tall guys in our group, while those of us who were not-so-tall she'd pretty look right through as if we weren't there. She was so blatant that it became easy to read the look from her, and that helped interpret the more subtle variations from others.

- I still maintain that the best way to meet someone is to find a lot of activities/classes/whatever that you will reasonably enjoy doing, where there is apt to be at least some members of the gender of interest to you. Keep picking up new ones, so you keep meeting new people. That way people have a chance to get to know you first, and see some of those qualities, and then you never know what might happen.


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## Carrie (Nov 12, 2009)

Lot of great posts in this thread! 


Tad said:


> - have you ever eaten salba (aka Salvia hispanica)? It is some sort of see from central/south america which is just ridiculously nutritious, it is pretty much everything good you could squeeze into one food. It also has the approximate texture and taste of sawdust, which is why the odds are good that you've not eaten it, or not often. Some nice guys are salba, they might be good for you, but that does mean that you enjoy being with them (or more critically: that you end up feeling any sort of passion for them).


YES. Nice is good, I like nice. It's not always very interesting, though, so bring something else to the table. Be funny, be offbeat, be passionate about something. I generally need more than nice to get the fires burning. WINKETY-WINK. 


Tad said:


> - When you constantly try to serve someone, that is compliment them, laugh at their jokes, tell them how great they are, get them stuff, buy them stuff, do what they want.....you are sending a message that you are their servant and they are your superior. Not many women want to date a guy who sets himself up as her inferior. Which isn't to say you can't be nice, but how you frame it/approach it makes a huge difference, I think.


Another excellent point. Big difference between nice and being a doormat/suck-up/compulsive people pleaser; the latter of which, fair or not, tends to convey a lack of respect and regard for oneself. 

I'll add that the "I'm a nice guy!" line tends to be a bit of a red flag for me. Most good guys I've known don't generally feel the need to go around saying how nice they are; their actions tend to speak for themselves. It feels a little like someone going around proclaiming not to be sexist or racist, y'know? Don't tell me. Show me. And while you're at it, show me what _else_ you can offer, and I'll do the same.


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

I like your salba analogy Tad! When my last but one LTR ex gf dumped me, I remember describing to a friend how she'd acted towards me as though I was rich, chocolate ice cream: She'd wanted/loved me - more and more and more of me..  ... until suddenly, just like that, she didn't want/love any of me at all.  ... (benefit of hindsight - she was on the rebound and needed the ego boost, before she could work up the chutzpah to nail this other fella who was a "friend" and who she is still with now) So hey, us not-nice guys get binned too! Lol! .... Oh and a word of advice over and above basic hygiene re. appearance / hobbies to struggling nice guys. Got a beard? Shave it off. Your average is immediately improved by this, cos more chicks don't dig beards than do. Play D&D? Stop. At least do WoW online if you must.. I hear a bunch of girls are into that.. But trad D&D? Not so much. (At 16, I binned my D&D books and gave the toys to my younger bro.)


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## Teleute (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Oh and a word of advice over and above basic hygiene re. appearance / hobbies to struggling nice guys. Got a beard? Shave it off. Your average is immediately improved by this, cos more chicks don't dig beards than do. Play D&D? Stop. At least do WoW online if you must.. I hear a bunch of girls are into that.. But trad D&D? Not so much. (At 16, I binned my D&D books and gave the toys to my younger bro.)



I don't think you need to change your interests at all; I mean, hell, if we were dating by lowest common denominator, I'd have gotten skinny years ago because that appeals to the greatest number of people, right? But being aware that most do not find those traits appealing is key - it means you'll want to be sticking to places/activities you like. In other words, if you're a geek, don't go trying to pick up women at trendy clubs; just go have fun at comic con, and you'll meet people (both men and women) who share your interests.

And for the record, pencil and paper D&D is awesome


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## Jes (Nov 12, 2009)

BBW4Chattery said:


> Loved everything YOU wrote... but I'm out of rep.
> .



there's always tomorrow!


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

LisaInNC said:


> Thats so funny you say that!! In the past, guys have asked me why I was single. I was too pretty to be single. When I was honest and told them I am single because I am a raging bitch, they never believed me.



:smitten: I still don't believe you... you're such a :eat2: cream puff... 
people are single for any number of reasons and some of the craziest people I know are married

In response to the thread in general though... I wouldn't claim to be a nice guy here... several of you wouldn't believe it if I tried... but I think you can be self assertive/confrontational and still be nice. The reality of it is calling people on their BS right from the start is kinder than being permissive till you snap. It's far from an easy balance because most people have a tendency to want to test how far you'll go to be nice, but if you're really working at it it can be achieved.


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

@Teluete - sure don't give up stuff that *really* matters to ya.. But if your beard is just a "meh" thing for a guy, ditching it may help the cause.. Shaving really is waaaaay easier than changing your body size! And sure if you can parse your interests into meeting people that's great.. But if not, consider getting interested in other stuff (too), eh? Priorities etc... ..... Btw - you rock, hun!


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## cheekyjez (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Play D&D? Stop. At least do WoW online if you must.. I hear a bunch of girls are into that.. But trad D&D? Not so much. (At 16, I binned my D&D books and gave the toys to my younger bro.)



I think more important than whether you play or not is how you talk about it. If you phrase it as "me and my buddies hang out and throw some dice around for a laugh", you'll typically get a better reaction than if you open with "I have an AWESOME level 8 barbarian!" Be a person who plays D&D, not a D&D player. 

The same applies to any other hobbies, really.


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Oh and a word of advice over and above basic hygiene re. appearance / hobbies to struggling nice guys. Got a beard? Shave it off. Your average is immediately improved by this, cos more chicks don't dig beards than do.


 
Ladies don't dig scraggly funky It's obvious that I'm just too lazy to shave beards... If you have the urge to grow a neck beard it's prob not gonna get you laid. If there's stray stuff that looks like eyelashes on your cheeks shave it off... you should own a beard and a razor....If you're not doing something with it daily don't grow it... 

I've never seen a guy turned down for having well groomed facial hair... ever.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 12, 2009)

stldpn said:


> Ladies don't dig scraggly funky It's obvious that I'm just too lazy to shave beards... If you have the urge to grow a neck beard it's prob not gonna get you laid. If there's stray stuff that looks like eyelashes on your cheeks shave it off... you should own a beard and a razor....If you're not doing something with it daily don't grow it...
> 
> I've never seen a guy turned down for having well groomed facial hair... ever.



Gotta say, different strokes for different folks, stldpn. I really dislike facial hair, and probably _would_ turn down someone on that basis alone. For years, my husband had a (well trimmed) moustache and I have always really disliked it. He was meticulous in his grooming habits, and kept it trimmed to well above his lip line, but I just really hated it. Finally, he shaved it off as an anniversary gift about 5 years ago. I can deal with a moustache if I have to, but a beard is too much for me. And yes, I'm aware that this is very shallow on my part, but this is something that I really can't help (anymore than you have control of your own preferences, that is). I don't know why I feel so strongly about it, and I'm well aware that many women do like it. However, I think that there is some merit to what Jos said about it ... if it's a 'meh' point for the guy in question, why not just shave it off? I do think that more women prefer clean shaven. I haven't taken a poll or anything but ... in my experience, it at least feels true.


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

From my personal experience the "least cock blocking" facial hair you can have is the sideburns.. I think cos they're not around your mouth.. Although, back when mine were a bit more "dramatic" I did encounter *one* girl who totally hated them! If you do have sideburns best to keep em trimmed, not Farmer Giles mutton chops! Lolz! I did "get away" with a neat goatee for years when I was younger, prettier, had no grey in my beard and was lead singer in my band.. Now I am craggier, greyer and a solo artist - it's sideys only and an otherwise clean shave for me! And yes your mileage may vary.. Some girls love beards! But it's rarely a neutral issue.. And as it's only a matter of days to grow one in if you meet a girl who does dig it, why not max your odds with a clean shave? If you're on the pull that is..


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Gotta say, different strokes for different folks, stldpn. I really dislike facial hair, and probably _would_ turn down someone on that basis alone. For years, my husband had a (well trimmed) moustache and I have always really disliked it. He was meticulous in his grooming habits, and kept it trimmed to well above his lip line, but I just really hated it. Finally, he shaved it off as an anniversary gift about 5 years ago. I can deal with a moustache if I have to, but a beard is too much for me. And yes, I'm aware that this is very shallow on my part, but this is something that I really can't help (anymore than you have control of your own preferences, that is). I don't know why I feel so strongly about it, and I'm well aware that many women do like it. However, I think that there is some merit to what Jos said about it ... if it's a 'meh' point for the guy in question, why not just shave it off? I do think that more women prefer clean shaven. I haven't taken a poll or anything but ... in my experience, it at least feels true.



just my experience... when I hear that a guy has a "meh" beard I visualize someone who is literally just too lazy to shave and wash and comb it... They get out of bed and run their hand over that "peter griffin bird nest" beard get dressed and go about their day literally using that nasty brillo pad as a soup strainer and as a result a few women get a negative feeling about beards in general. So be it... 

The problem is some of us are very used to wearing our beards and don't like to admit it... I for one am convinced that I look like an idiot if I shave my chin... true? maybe not... but it's the way I feel and it's my comfort zone... could I change? sure but if the beard itself makes me feel more comfortable, more attractive why would I? 

Jos likened it to losing weight earlier... a matter of hygeine for some BHMs. That just reinforces my sense that socially beards are just a stereotype for some people. Fat and bad beards are both indirectly connected to the idea of poor hygeine in too many people's minds. The reality is you can be fat, bearded and well groomed. And with the opposite sex... issues with appearance almost always have to do with perceptions about how well groomed you are.


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

Stldpn - please don't take anything I've said as having a go at you or bearded dudes in general.. Bearded clearly works for you, as you have a gf! I was offering advice to the struggling single guys... Oh re. hygiene when i grew my beard i quickly found I had to wash it daily.. Or my gf would get spots round her mouth from when I kissed her.. Washing beard led to no more spots for gf..


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> From my personal experience the "least cock blocking" facial hair you can have is the sideburns.. I think cos they're not around your mouth.. Although, back when mine were a bit more "dramatic" I did encounter *one* girl who totally hated them! If you do have sideburns best to keep em trimmed, not Farmer Giles mutton chops! Lolz! I did "get away" with a neat goatee for years when I was younger, prettier, had no grey in my beard and was lead singer in my band.. Now I am craggier, greyer and a solo artist - it's sideys only and an otherwise clean shave for me! And yes your mileage may vary.. Some girls love beards! But it's rarely a neutral issue.. And as it's only a matter of days to grow one in if you meet a girl who does dig it, why not max your odds with a clean shave? If you're on the pull that is..



It's not something that's often discussed in polite circles but I've found that a beard... particularly one of the chin variety can be a powerful sexual tool. It's not so much a matter of "getting away with it "if it you learn to reinforce your own sensual nature with it... a matter of texture a matter of taste... but I've never seen a full grown man with a clean enough shave that he could match a woman for baby smooth so why try?


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Stldpn - please don't take anything I've said as having a go at you or bearded dudes in general.. Bearded clearly works for you, as you have a gf! I was offering advice to the struggling single guys... Oh re. hygiene when i grew my beard i quickly found I had to wash it daily.. Or my gf would get spots round her mouth from when I kissed her.. Washing beard led to no more spots for gf..



ah so you just grew a nasty I don't wanna shave beard? yeah like I said in the initial don't grow it if you don't want to tend it... beards are not supposed to be rough and prickly... you have to wash them on the regular...


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 12, 2009)

stldpn said:


> just my experience... when I hear that a guy has a "meh" beard I visualize someone who is literally just too lazy to shave and wash and comb it... They get out of bed and run their hand over that "peter griffin bird nest" beard get dressed and go about their day literally using that nasty brillo pad as a soup strainer and as a result a few women get a negative feeling about beards in general. So be it...
> 
> The problem is some of us are very used to wearing our beards and don't like to admit it... I for one am convinced that I look like an idiot if I shave my chin... true? maybe not... but it's the way I feel and it's my comfort zone... could I change? sure but if the beard itself makes me feel more comfortable, more attractive why would I?
> 
> Jos likened it to losing weight earlier... a matter of hygeine for some BHMs. That just reinforces my sense that socially beards are just a stereotype for some people. Fat and bad beards are both indirectly connected to the idea of poor hygeine in too many people's minds. The reality is you can be fat, bearded and well groomed. And with the opposite sex... issues with appearance almost always have to do with perceptions about how well groomed you are.



I thought the "meh" factor was more ... my beard, I can take it or leave it ... not implying that it's a poorly groomed issue. I may have misunderstood. 

I do ... absolutely ... understand what you mean when you say that it's your comfort zone. It was for my husband too. I would have never asked him to remove it altogether (I did ask, frequently, that he keep it REALLY well-trimmed ... he has always been well-groomed). I know it was part of how he identified himself. He chose to shave it off and it was a huge shock to me. It was also a huge turn-on  

I don't equate beards or fat with being ill groomed. I just don't like facial hair. Then again, I'm a bit on the squeamish side about excess hair, period. I'd be *thrilled* if my husband shaved his pits, legs, chest, if he was in fact completely hairless with exception to the hair on his head. That's my issue entirely, and I know it. On second thought, maybe I'm a very, very poor candidate to speak out on women's behalf. Scratch that. With my 'hair' issues, there's no 'maybe' about it :doh:


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## joswitch (Nov 12, 2009)

@Traci - you're right about what I meant by the "meh" factor (= a take it or leave it attitude).. @stlpdn - no was a neatly trimmed goatee, and it was my first proper beard (this was 15+ years back) and for lack of any decent male role model to educate me growing up, I learned thro' experience (very quickly, like within a week) that I had to wash it - which I did, daily until I shaved it about 5years later... :bow:


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I don't equate beards or fat with being ill groomed. I just don't like facial hair. Then again, I'm a bit on the squeamish side about excess hair, period. I'd be *thrilled* if my husband shaved his pits, legs, chest, if he was in fact completely hairless with exception to the hair on his head. That's my issue entirely, and I know it. On second thought, maybe I'm a very, very poor candidate to speak out on women's behalf. Scratch that. With my 'hair' issues, there's no 'maybe' about it :doh:



Ah so you're one of those ladies that favors the electrolysis look?
I'll grant you not all woman love it... a few only tolerate it by a bit... but I've never seen a guy rejected entirely over well groomed facial hair. If that's the best she can do for an excuse, it's probably really something else.


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

joswitch said:


> rd (this was 15+ years back) and for lack of any decent male role model to educate me growing up, I learned thro' experience (very quickly, like within a week) that I had to wash it - which I did, daily until I shaved it about 5years later... :bow:



My dad was a biker/inmate he epitomized the disgusting bacteria encrusted facial hair look. Not exactly my facial hair role model. It's a common myth I'll grant you but it's one that generally flies in the face of the things that your mother probably taught you about washing your hands and face regularly. I'm not sure why people regard facial hair so differently than the stuff that grows on the rest of our head... probably something else you can chalk up to social misinformation.


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## Sugar (Nov 12, 2009)

stldpn said:


> :smitten: I still don't believe you... you're such a :eat2: cream puff...
> people are single for any number of reasons and some of the craziest people I know are married
> 
> In response to the thread in general though... I wouldn't claim to be a nice guy here... several of you wouldn't believe it if I tried... but I think you can be self assertive/confrontational and still be nice. The reality of it is calling people on their BS right from the start is kinder than being permissive till you snap. It's far from an easy balance because most people have a tendency to want to test how far you'll go to be nice, but if you're really working at it it can be achieved.



A) Lisa is a total cream puff.

B) I think one of the main differences between a nice person and a dick is someone who can offer their perspective and opinions without being cruel, unkind, or generally mean. It's one thing to say my opinion is X and this why. It's another to say you're wrong because you're a moron and these other reasons (which may or may not be accurate). Plus, I know for me and the people I want in my life...I want those who pick and choose their battles. Just because someone is feeding you BS doesn't mean that they need to be called on it. It really depends on how important it truly is...no one likes a busy body. Yo.

A nice guy (person) who can share his opinions in the unsnarky way will come out on top IMO...provided they're actually a nice guy and not creepy as fudge dressed in a nerd costume wrapped in old computer parts. 

C) I think you're a nice guy Dan, but that's because I met you in chat and you let me call you fire crotch.


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

Sugar said:


> A) Lisa is a total cream puff. :



She is but she seems to now be officially upset with me about exposing her inner creampuff goodness... I couldn't help it though she's so squishy sweet... like a mouthful of peeps goodness... you heard me I love her like a fat kid loves peeps...



Sugar said:


> B) I think one of the main differences between a nice person and a dick is someone who can offer their perspective and opinions without being cruel, unkind, or generally mean. It's one thing to say my opinion is X and this why. It's another to say you're wrong because you're a moron and these other reasons (which may or may not be accurate). Plus, I know for me and the people I want in my life...I want those who pick and choose their battles. Just because someone is feeding you BS doesn't mean that they need to be called on it. It really depends on how important it truly is...no one likes a busy body. Yo.
> 
> A nice guy (person) who can share his opinions in the unsnarky way will come out on top IMO...provided they're actually a nice guy and not creepy as fudge dressed in a nerd costume wrapped in old computer parts.
> /


Umm I sort of disagree... sometimes with some people you have to get drasticly causticly mean in order for them to understand the gravity of what you're saying... it's not always... it's not easy... but sometimes being a dick to get your point accross is the only way they're going to improve a behaviour. It's not what I call the optimum choice but for some people the carrot at the end of the stick is useless so you might as well throw it out and beat them with the stick..
.


Sugar said:


> C) I think you're a nice guy Dan, but that's because I met you in chat and you let me call you fire crotch.



I did? I don't recall... I don't even want to know what the subtext was to that name...


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## Sugar (Nov 12, 2009)

stldpn said:


> Sugar said:
> 
> 
> > A) Lisa is a total cream puff. /
> ...


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## ladle (Nov 12, 2009)

well I am too nice too people sometimes, could be called a Mr Nice Guy. But I find you just have to be smarter with women. Don't give the a chance to shoot you down. Be funny, be creative. 
Nice guys don't finish last, ugly guys finish last. Be that ugly in terms of attitude, respect, pity, looks.
Stop the self pity shit and get out there! Sometimes you can't get the girl you want. Just cos you are attracted to someone, doesn't mean they are attracted to you. That's life, if it were easy, we'd all be destined for happiness.
Approach dating smarter...not harder (both meanings).
Enough of my rant. If you are not confident then a woman will see this.
Dr Phul-o-shite has spoken.


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## stldpn (Nov 12, 2009)

Sugar said:


> You are officially the worlds worst quoter
> 
> I can see being firm even dickish if it's someone you care about and you have to get a point across to them. However, just in random discussions...there is no need to shove anything down anyone's throat...pretty much ever.



Hey I fixed it you were just too quick on the draw... I never said anything about shoving ideology down their throat... I just beat them with a garden statuary till they have no choice but to follow my logic...


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## tonynyc (Nov 13, 2009)

Nothing wrong about being a Nice - we certainly need more "Nice" people this day and age. We can all have our down moments;but, to be always "wishy/washy" about things is a trait that no one likes. 

Too many factors when you look at the Dating Arena as to why a "Nice" person can or cannot succeeed. 

The one error is the assumption that someones "kindness" or "niceness" is a sign of weakness.


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## Sugar (Nov 13, 2009)

stldpn said:


> Hey I fixed it you were just too quick on the draw... I never said anything about shoving ideology down their throat... I just beat them with a garden statuary till they have no choice but to follow my logic...



It concerns me that you carry a gnome in your back pocket "just in case".


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## Paquito (Nov 13, 2009)

I do my best not to use the whole "nice guys finish last" cliche, mostly because I know that my problems are more focused on my social awkwardness and shyness. 

Besides, if it really is true that genuinely nice guys finish last (and hypothetically I'm in that group), then I'd rather finish last than become a jerk.


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## KHayes666 (Nov 13, 2009)

free2beme04 said:


> I do my best not to use the whole "nice guys finish last" cliche, mostly because I know that my problems are more focused on my social awkwardness and shyness.
> 
> Besides, if it really is true that genuinely nice guys finish last (and hypothetically I'm in that group), then I'd rather finish last than become a jerk.



No, you don't want to finish last....watching everyone around you live happy lives while you're stuck in neutral. Watching friends, family, classmates get married, pregnant, raising families and you're still trying to find someone. If the price of complete happiness comes at tarnishing your reputation a bit, take it. Everyone elses perception doesn't matter once you're with the one you truly love. 

Take it from me who damn near finished last, its better to stand up for what you believe in and look like a jerk than be a yes-man and be all by yourself.


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## stldpn (Nov 13, 2009)

Sugar said:


> It concerns me that you carry a gnome in your back pocket "just in case".



I do... I feel bad for them. Nobody wants to give them a home anymore.... I mean look at that poor little guy that travelocity is pimping out you think he does those adds because he's a well adjusted gnome?


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## stldpn (Nov 13, 2009)

KHayes666 said:


> No, you don't want to finish last....watching everyone around you live happy lives while you're stuck in neutral. Watching friends, family, classmates get married, pregnant, raising families and you're still trying to find someone. If the price of complete happiness comes at tarnishing your reputation a bit, take it. Everyone elses perception doesn't matter once you're with the one you truly love.
> 
> Take it from me who damn near finished last, its better to stand up for what you believe in and look like a jerk than be a yes-man and be all by yourself.



well it's not like it's a truly black and white issue is it? Going to the extreme of everything is rarely the best course for a life. Living life somewhere between jerk and mr rodgers sounds like it'd be the most productive.


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## tonynyc (Nov 13, 2009)

stldpn said:


> well it's not like it's a truly black and white issue is it? Going to the extreme of everything is rarely the best course for a life. Living life somewhere between jerk and mr rodgers sounds like it'd be the most productive.



and less stressful... there are just those times when one has to be nice and other times that require different methods...being at the extreme of either end is not good


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## garbled (Nov 13, 2009)

I think there may be some confusion on the part of some guys, women do want to meet nice guys but i think some guys think they have to be doormats in order to be nice, in m experience women like guys to be nice but natural ie comfortable in their own skin and not always trying to be the perfect partner


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## Tau (Nov 13, 2009)

I can't believe this thread is still going! But since it is, my 2 cents: Be yourself. The most attractive men are the ones who have taken the time to figure themselves out, find out what makes them tick, what they like and don't like and then remianed true to that. Good hygiene shouldn't even be brought up in this situation in my opinion cos these are issues so basic I think most people dealt with them when they were 12  Hotness, attractiveness, isnt for sensible female people you actually want to be in a relationship with, only about your hair, facial or otherwise, your clothes or the size of your wallet. It's you, your personality, your spirit. You might be a bit of a sarcastic biatch, or quiet and shy, or a loud mouth with an opinion on everything. Embrace it if its you and you'll be inundated with hotties! Know thy self, then you won't be a doormat.


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## stldpn (Nov 13, 2009)

garbled said:


> I think there may be some confusion on the part of some guys, women do want to meet nice guys but i think some guys think they have to be doormats in order to be nice, in m experience women like guys to be nice but natural ie comfortable in their own skin and not always trying to be the perfect partner


 
nice guy = non assertive... does that mean assertive = jerk?


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## professorepeach (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm not sure what the rules are on posting drawings. (I didn't draw it). But this springs to mind, and I can't remember where it's from otherwise I'd link to it!

What I take from the drawing is a reminder that we are usually sensitive to those we desire, less sensitive to those who desire us - unless they are the same person, in which case it's two-way! Which is the ideal. But if it's not, then we remember the rejections we receive much more than those we deliver.

I think this applies widely, in terms of the difference in the thought we give to people in those two categories (desiring us vs desired by us). Though of course people differ vastly in their manners and selfishness/selflessness, so it can be expressed very differently from person to person - some people are gracious, some not.

So we often overlook others who would be a good partner for us. Is it fair to say that few of us are always innocent of this? 

View attachment sensitiveguy cartoon.jpg


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## garbled (Nov 14, 2009)

stldpn said:


> nice guy = non assertive... does that mean assertive = jerk?



No thats not what i am saying at all, i am saying some guys seem to think they have to be doormats to be percieved as nice which is not the case


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## goofy girl (Nov 14, 2009)

Ok...I had quoted someone but removed it so it wouldn't look like I'm attacking them (because I really don't want it to look like I am..because I'm not LOL), so hopefully this still makes sense:


Honestly, who cares if you finish last as long as you finish?? Everyone's lives happen at different speeds..different paths are chosen...different success and accomplishments for everyone. Not everyone has successful relationships and gets married, some people have great relationships and never get married, some people are single forever...and whatever happens is OK. Crossing a finish line does not have to equal being in a relationship...there are a million other things in the world that can be considered a success, and a lot of them are way more important than finding "the one".

*I* believe that if someone is not in a relationship (since that's what we're really talking about here...not jobs and stuff) then there is a reason for that. You're either not ready, need some time to work on yourself, or just haven't found someone that will accept you *and that YOU will love and care for unconditionally*, because relationships do go both ways.

Blaming everyone else for all the wrongs in your life is not taking responsibility for yourself and your actions...and I really don't know any woman who would want to date a man (or woman) like that. 

So, it probably has nothing to do with whether you're a nice guy or a total bastard, but that you're just not ready yet, because I know a lot of assholes that are single too.


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## mossystate (Nov 14, 2009)

Nice guys DO finish last...if ya know whad a mean, and I think ya do.

bada bing


wait...do women like this or not, or do we mostly just need the closeness...I have to ask a dude...hold on

:bow:


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## goofy girl (Nov 14, 2009)

mossystate said:


> Nice guys DO finish last...if ya know whad a mean, and I think ya do.
> 
> bada bing
> 
> ...



HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA. 



















it took me a minute to figure it out....haha..but good one! :bow:


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## joswitch (Nov 15, 2009)

goofy girl said:


> Ok..*snip* because I know a lot of assholes that are single too.



Someone start the "I'm a total asshole! And yet - still single! WHHHHHhhhhhhyyyy???" thread!


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## KHayes666 (Nov 16, 2009)

joswitch said:


> Someone start the "I'm a total asshole! And yet - still single! WHHHHHhhhhhhyyyy???" thread!



I'm not single...otherwise I would have beat you to the punch :doh:


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## Mini (Nov 16, 2009)

Nice guys finish when they finish. It's an irrelevant factor, frankly.

What's most important is attitude. "Woe is me" has never moistened any panties, nor will it. Except for the crazy chicks who think men are at their best when they're wounded, but seriously, stay away from them.


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## KHayes666 (Nov 16, 2009)

Mini said:


> Nice guys finish when they finish. It's an irrelevant factor, frankly.
> 
> What's most important is attitude. "Woe is me" has never moistened any panties, nor will it. Except for the crazy chicks who think men are at their best when they're wounded, but seriously, stay away from them.



"You must spread reputation around before giving it to Mini again"

Woe is me don't work....amen to that.


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## UMBROBOYUM (Nov 16, 2009)

Tau said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going! But since it is, my 2 cents: Be yourself. The most attractive men are the ones who have taken the time to figure themselves out, find out what makes them tick, what they like and don't like and then remianed true to that. Good hygiene shouldn't even be brought up in this situation in my opinion cos these are issues so basic I think most people dealt with them when they were 12  Hotness, attractiveness, isnt for sensible female people you actually want to be in a relationship with, only about your hair, facial or otherwise, your clothes or the size of your wallet. It's you, your personality, your spirit. You might be a bit of a sarcastic biatch, or quiet and shy, or a loud mouth with an opinion on everything. Embrace it if its you and you'll be inundated with hotties! Know thy self, then you won't be a doormat.



I think this hits the nail on the head. Knowing yourself to the point where you don't have to worry about the superficial things other than surviving and taking care of yourself. I'm a mixture of nice and bad, and theres one thing I know, and thats me. I'm pretty happy with myself and the way I am. Could I be better? yes. Theres always room for improvement, but just be happy with yourself and act like yourself. Thats the real key. You want someone to like you for you and not how you think they think you should act. Thats never a good thing.

as for the nice guys finish last comment, I'll say for some it's true and for some its an excuse.


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## Melian (Nov 16, 2009)

professorepeach said:


> I'm not sure what the rules are on posting drawings. (I didn't draw it). But this springs to mind, and I can't remember where it's from otherwise I'd link to it!
> 
> What I take from the drawing is a reminder that we are usually sensitive to those we desire, less sensitive to those who desire us - unless they are the same person, in which case it's two-way! Which is the ideal. But if it's not, then we remember the rejections we receive much more than those we deliver.
> 
> ...




Just want to say: I think your cartoon is totally correct.

Kind of ironic that no one seemed to notice it.


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## Lastminute.Tom (Nov 16, 2009)

"Nice guys" aren't self centred which is why they rarely "get the girl"
I present myself as exhibit A.

Being self centred isn't the same as being a selfish twat, I'll try to explain what I mean.

If you devote yourself, your time and attention to someone who doesn't reciprocate then you are just going to end up feeling cheated even though it is through your own choice that you leave yourself feeling empty.

If you really want to be there for other people you need to get your own life sorted out first, you can't leave yourself last on the people to help list because you can't truly love another person until you love and accept yourself.

It is rare to find a "nice guy" that loves or appreciates themselves(how are women supposed to see what you don't see yourself?), and I don't mean in a narccisitic or arrogant way (though that sometimes helps if your only after one kind of gratification) I mean being accepting of your good and bad attributes and accept they are what make you a whole individual.

but I digress, you will never get what you actively want and the more you want something, the more you pursue it the less chance there is you will ever be satisfied because all of your actions are bearing that want, the lack of satisfaction, and therefore you should make a conscious decision not to be the pursuer, the wanter, the nice guy who listens but never makes true his intentions and decide to be who you desire to be.

I can't say this process is easy, years of being the wanter (snigger) can be hard to uproot but if you don't want to be who you are now then you have to now choose who you are.

I am in this process this very moment, although I'm procrastinating by trolling these forums for ways to avoid doing my nanowrimo word count for today.

although I'm posting this here, I think I'm actually trying to tell myself something


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## bmann0413 (Nov 17, 2009)

I may be a nice guy and all, but I'm not gonna let that get me down! There is TOTALLY someone out there who is right for me, and I won't rest until I find her! HOO-HAH!


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## KittyKitten (Jul 1, 2011)

Honestly, I really think that a lot of GUYS don't like the 'nice GIRLS'. It seems when a girl really shows a strong interest in a guy and treats him with high regard, the guy backs off. It's like, "WTF"?

I've seen quite a few guys stay and chase after the type of women that dog them out, but won't chase after the 'good girls' or treat the good girls like crap. It's weird, and it goes both ways.

Someone gave me advice to never chase after a man.


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## KHayes666 (Jul 1, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> Honestly, I really think that a lot of GUYS don't like the 'nice GIRLS'. It seems when a girl really shows a strong interest in a guy and treats him with high regard, the guy backs off. It's like, "WTF"?
> 
> I've seen quite a few guys stay and chase after the type of women that dog them out, but won't chase after the 'good girls' or treat the good girls like crap. It's weird, and it goes both ways.
> 
> I told myself to never chase after a man again.



The same can be said in reverse. I knew a lot of girls that would chase the assholes when a perfectly good man would suit them better.

One even told me "I like bad guys, its much more fun and exciting"


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 1, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> Honestly, I really think that a lot of GUYS don't like the 'nice GIRLS'. It seems when a girl really shows a strong interest in a guy and treats him with high regard, the guy backs off. It's like, "WTF"?




wow..which guys do that?! LOL.that is crazy,i would never do such a thing.lol i think alot of women think nice guys are boring,women tend to want a challenge it seems.that's why im never surprised when a woman gets abused by the "bad boy" guys.it's like "ok,what did you think was going to happen"? it's like when you treat the woman right and with respect they don't want that.


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## MissAshley (Jul 3, 2011)

garbled said:


> I think there may be some confusion on the part of some guys, women do want to meet nice guys but i think some guys think they have to be doormats in order to be nice,




I agree with this. I have male friends who are nice guys and my "jerk" guy friends actually say "God I'm glad I'm not like him. He's a lil bitch and does whatever his girlfriend tells him to do." When in reality, it's not like that at all. Those "nice guys" actually have very equal partnerships with their girlfriends, but most males seem to think "Dominate or be dominated." Of course most men don't necessarily want to be jerks, but they also don't want to feel like they are under a woman's thumb, so then they act like a damn asshole in order to declare their place as the alpha dog in the relationship. 

I just know I will never go for an alpha male. I want an equal relationship that truly equal with a nice guy who loves and respects me and treats me the way he wants people to treat him. If you want to wear the pants and act like a jerk to me, you are barking up the wrong tree.


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## superodalisque (Jul 3, 2011)

i think there are a lot of people out there who have been abused and are uncomfortable unless they are with something they are familiar with. they might intellectually want a nice guy or a girl but they tend to be continually attracted to abusive people. so if you are a nice guy or girl you can't go around beating yourself up because other people seem to need to live in dysfunction. just be glad you weren't the one chosen since that would mean you are the abusive ass.


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 4, 2011)

MissAshley said:


> I agree with this. I have male friends who are nice guys and my "jerk" guy friends actually say "God I'm glad I'm not like him. He's a lil bitch and does whatever his girlfriend tells him to do." When in reality, it's not like that at all. Those "nice guys" actually have very equal partnerships with their girlfriends, but most males seem to think "Dominate or be dominated." Of course most men don't necessarily want to be jerks, but they also don't want to feel like they are under a woman's thumb, so then they act like a damn asshole in order to declare their place as the alpha dog in the relationship.
> 
> I just know I will never go for an alpha male. I want an equal relationship that truly equal with a nice guy who loves and respects me and treats me the way he wants people to treat him. If you want to wear the pants and act like a jerk to me, you are barking up the wrong tree.




i do agree,i mean im a nice guy but not a push over.i have my own opinions and own thoughts and me stands up for myself.LOL


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## Fat Brian (Jul 4, 2011)

A lot of guys confuse being "alpha" with being "a douche bag". Its possible to be confident and self assured, to stand up for your principals and protect your family without being a raging asshole. I have found that the guys who are the most concerned about "being alpha" are the least capable of being "top dog" of anything.


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## lizzie_lotr (Jul 4, 2011)

I think nice guys and nice girls finish together...


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## GentleSavage (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm the nice guy who always gets stuck in the "friend zone". I've literally had girls I've been interested tell me "I wish I was dating someone like you, Adam. You're so amazing." 

It used to really burn me up, but now that I have self confidence I am all like "Whatever, your loss", as opposed to quietly sobbing in my dorm room.

...


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## CastingPearls (Jul 11, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> A lot of guys confuse being "alpha" with being "a douche bag". Its possible to be confident and self assured, to stand up for your principals and protect your family without being a raging asshole. I have found that the guys who are the most concerned about "being alpha" are the least capable of being "top dog" of anything.


I used to be attracted to alphas. Then I realized that what I used to be attracted to was douches which was more of an epiphany about me than them.


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## Blackhawk2293 (Jul 11, 2011)

On top of being exposed to abusive and dysfunctional relationships as I grew up I then worked in Child Protection for so long that all I have seen is bad relationships where women keep going back to raging assholes that beat the shit out of them and put them in the hospital or psychologically destroy them and the reason given is "because they love him!" and I've seen guys that, if the woman is able to finally get out of the relationship, he finds the next woman to victimise and the cycle starts all over again. 

People are just dysfunctional and insecure in general and they try to alleviate their insecurities and dysfunctionality by dragging someone into their lives and inflicting it on them in some way. Whether that is physical, emotional, psychological, financial etc. It's essentially the same thing, manipulation.


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## Fat Brian (Jul 11, 2011)

GentleSavage said:


> I'm the nice guy who always gets stuck in the "friend zone". I've literally had girls I've been interested tell me "I wish I was dating someone like you, Adam. You're so amazing."
> 
> It used to really burn me up, but now that I have self confidence I am all like "Whatever, your loss", as opposed to quietly sobbing in my dorm room.
> 
> ...



This used to happen to me a lot too, and it was entirely my fault. I thought I would have to win over a girl with my personality since I didn't feel physically attractive so I would treat them as friends and establish a friendship hoping it would turn into a romantic relationship.

What I learned is that you need to make your intentions known pretty early, maybe not on the first interaction but but within the first five or six your need to at least compliment her. Do something to let her know that you are interested in being more than friends. If you let her assume you are only interested in friendship that is all you will likely get


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## Mathias (Jul 11, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> This used to happen to me a lot too, and it was entirely my fault. I thought I would have to win over a girl with my personality since I didn't feel physically attractive so I would treat them as friends and establish a friendship hoping it would turn into a romantic relationship.
> 
> What I learned is that you need to make your intentions known pretty early, maybe not on the first interaction but but within the first five or six your need to at least compliment her. Do something to let her know that you are interested in being more than friends. If you let her assume you are only interested in friendship that is all you will likely get



My problem is I know that I need to do everything you mentioned in the second paragraph but I never know how to go about it because I don't want to come off as a jerk.


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## Fat Brian (Jul 11, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> I used to be attracted to alphas. Then I realized that what I used to be attracted to was douches which was more of an epiphany about me than them.



As you well know you are not alone in that realization.


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## Fat Brian (Jul 11, 2011)

Mathias said:


> My problem is I know that I need to do everything you mentioned in the second paragraph but I never know how to go about it because I don't want to come off as a jerk.



I honestly never figured it out myself. I started dating my wife when I was 15 so my experiences are pretty limited. I believe she would dislike it if I tried to find out now.


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## GentleSavage (Jul 11, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> This used to happen to me a lot too, and it was entirely my fault. I thought I would have to win over a girl with my personality since I didn't feel physically attractive so I would treat them as friends and establish a friendship hoping it would turn into a romantic relationship.
> 
> What I learned is that you need to make your intentions known pretty early, maybe not on the first interaction but but within the first five or six your need to at least compliment her. Do something to let her know that you are interested in being more than friends. If you let her assume you are only interested in friendship that is all you will likely get



Well I usually only get really interested in someone after I've known for awhile. So for me by the time I figure out I like them, the "friend zone" has imprisoned me. You do make a good point though. I guess I watch too many romantic comedies where the best friends end up together.

If only real life were like a movie...


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## ObiWantsU (Jul 11, 2011)

lizzie_lotr said:


> I think nice guys and nice girls finish together...



Nice guys let nice girls finish a few times first 

----------------------------

Though I've had my share of relationships also, I've also often found myself in the _friend zone_. I've lost count of how many times I've heard some ladies say lately that unless they have arguments with their boyfriends that it's not a good relationship. They feel in the arguments with lots of yelling and real anger that the ability to emotionally connect with another is found.

W.T.F?

The only way I can possibly understand this is they desire to feel passion, inflamed emotions, that only a person who feels a true passionate love can fuel a true passionate argument. There is a twisted logic to this, and if that is the only truth, then you can go screw yourself (over).


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## Paquito (Jul 11, 2011)

GentleSavage said:


> Well I usually only get really interested in someone after I've known for awhile. So for me by the time I figure out I like them, the "friend zone" has imprisoned me. You do make a good point though. I guess I watch too many romantic comedies where the best friends end up together.
> 
> If only real life were like a movie...



Mine would definitely be a musical.


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## GentleSavage (Jul 11, 2011)

Paquito said:


> Mine would definitely be a musical.



I take mine back. Mine would definitely be a musical. I mean my friends and I already burst into song, and occasionally there's some spontaneous choreography.


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## Paquito (Jul 11, 2011)

GentleSavage said:


> I take mine back. Mine would definitely be a musical. I mean my friends and I already burst into song, and occasionally there's some spontaneous choreography.



Lady Gaga medley in a bustling area of nightlife. Bring your disco stick. See you in 30 minutes.


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## GentleSavage (Jul 11, 2011)

Paquito said:


> Lady Gaga medley in a bustling area of nightlife. Bring your disco stick. See you in 30 minutes.



Don't forget a feathered boa... with the birds still attached.

I feel like that is more Björk, than Gaga, but w/e.


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## ObiWantsU (Jul 11, 2011)

Paquito said:


> Mine would definitely be a musical.



Muppet Movie for me! Take it away, Kermie...


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## Paquito (Jul 11, 2011)

GentleSavage said:


> Don't forget a feathered boa... with the birds still attached.
> 
> I feel like that is more Björk, than Gaga, but w/e.



I dipped the birds in gold shimmer paint. Let's do this.
if things don't work out with you and OKCupid chick I'm more than willing to ravish you while belting Bad Romance


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## GentleSavage (Jul 12, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I dipped the birds in gold shimmer paint. Let's do this.
> if things don't work out with you and OKCupid chick I'm more than willing to ravish you while belting Bad Romance



YESSS. 

We can't help it. We were born this way, an army of me.


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## GentleSavage (Jul 12, 2011)

GentleSavage said:


> YESSS.
> 
> We can't help it. We were born this way, an army of me.



my sad attempt at combining gaga and bjork to make a joke...

epic fail.


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## Paquito (Jul 12, 2011)

There are no epic fails on the edge of glory.


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## biglynch (Jul 12, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> What I learned is that you need to make your intentions known pretty early, maybe not on the first interaction but but within the first five or six your need to at least compliment her. Do something to let her know that you are interested in being more than friends. If you let her assume you are only interested in friendship that is all you will likely get



this is not just good advice, its the best advice. 100% correct.


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## GentleSavage (Jul 12, 2011)

Paquito said:


> There are no epic fails on the edge of glory.



That right there is epic win. If I could rep you, I so totally would.


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## Fox (Jul 14, 2011)

I actually have quite a few thoughts on this topic. 

For one thing, I found it surprising that this topic was made by a sympathetic female friend, rather than some frustrated attention seeker.

For one thing, I don't like the idea of somebody claiming to be a "nice person" to anyone he is dating. It's as if he assumes instant alliance with the person he is dating. What I mean is, in my experience on this planet, it seems that "good and evil" and "nice and bad" are very subjective; opinions which vary from person to person. For example, I think a person can be pro choice and still be a good person, but I know there are people who disagree with me. So how can someone say to someone he doesn't even know that "he's a nice guy" in hopes she agrees with him when he has no idea of what her opinion of "nice" even is?

Disclaimer: I understand your friends don't say that during a date or to women they try to pick up (or as far as you've seen), but I'm just saying that in response to the topic.

I always try to be a nice person though. It's not constant, though. I have my edges and occasional moodswings, just like everyone else, but I try. It seems to work out pretty well quite often. All of my friends and even my ex-girlfriends still think I'm one of the nicest guys they know, so I must be doing something right. lol

But in my experience, it is also true that often the guys who get the most girls don't treat them very well. This one guy I know gets just about any girl he wants. I've become friends with a lot of those girls and his ex's always tell me the same thing: he's mean, insulting, controlling, mentally abusive, etc. And I have no problem believing this because he treats me the same way, and he says I'm his best friend. I also have a cousin and every time I see him, he's with a new girl, and she always has at least one visible bruise. I don't mean to blame all of them on him, but he already got arrested for it once, and that's all I need to know.

I'm just sharing those examples to let people know that having lots of sex and relationships does not make you a more morally adjusted person than someone who doesn't have lots of sex and relationships.


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## rellis10 (Jul 14, 2011)

Like Fox said, I TRY to be a nice person but it's not for me to say if I am or not. It's entirely up to other people to decide that for themselves.

If it doesn't get me women, I don't care...I'd rather try to be good and be lonely than be a raging asshole and treat many women badly.


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## TexasTrouble (Jul 14, 2011)

rellis10 said:


> Like Fox said, I TRY to be a nice person but it's not for me to say if I am or not. It's entirely up to other people to decide that for themselves.
> 
> If it doesn't get me women, I don't care...I'd rather try to be good and be lonely than be a raging asshole and treat many women badly.



Growing up in the American south has taught me there's a BIG difference between "nice" and "good." Nice just refers to being able to do the right social things, to give the impression to others that you fit in, are a decent person, etc. Being "good" is a deeper issue about beliefs, morals. I know tons of people who are nice as they can be...to your face, then they are the most judgmental and mean-spirited people behind someone's back. So when I hear someone talk about how "nice" they are I always ask myself: But are you a good person? This is a subjective thing, of course, but it shows how useless using the word "nice" can be when talking about relationships.


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 14, 2011)

lizzie_lotr said:


> I think nice guys and nice girls finish together...




thing about that is though those two types hardly EVER cross paths...


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 14, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> This used to happen to me a lot too, and it was entirely my fault. I thought I would have to win over a girl with my personality since I didn't feel physically attractive so I would treat them as friends and establish a friendship hoping it would turn into a romantic relationship.
> 
> What I learned is that you need to make your intentions known pretty early, maybe not on the first interaction but but within the first five or six your need to at least compliment her. Do something to let her know that you are interested in being more than friends. If you let her assume you are only interested in friendship that is all you will likely get




that's true,but you can let them know early on and still end up in the freinds zone.but i agree it is best to let it be known to avoid heartache or akwardness and confusion later on,good post.


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 14, 2011)

GentleSavage said:


> I'm the nice guy who always gets stuck in the "friend zone". I've literally had girls I've been interested tell me "I wish I was dating someone like you, Adam. You're so amazing."
> 
> It used to really burn me up, but now that I have self confidence I am all like "Whatever, your loss", as opposed to quietly sobbing in my dorm room.
> 
> ...




i agree,i usually always end up in the freind zone.it used to bother me when i was abit younger,but now that im older it dosen't bother me at all anymore.as you say i just say there loss and move on,it's not worth spending time on people that won't even give you a chance in that sense.


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## JulianDW (Jul 14, 2011)

TexasTrouble said:


> Growing up in the American south has taught me there's a BIG difference between "nice" and "good." Nice just refers to being able to do the right social things, to give the impression to others that you fit in, are a decent person, etc. Being "good" is a deeper issue about beliefs, morals. I know tons of people who are nice as they can be...to your face, then they are the most judgmental and mean-spirited people behind someone's back. So when I hear someone talk about how "nice" they are I always ask myself: But are you a good person? This is a subjective thing, of course, but it shows how useless using the word "nice" can be when talking about relationships.



Thats an interesting way to view it. I've had similar encounters with people who are just 'nice'. In a sense it is subjective, but I think it does have some signifigance. If someone is just 'nice' to win approval, but is really a rotten person inside, he/she probably is going to 'finish last'.


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 14, 2011)

JulianDW said:


> Thats an interesting way to view it. I've had similar encounters with people who are just 'nice'. In a sense it is subjective, but I think it does have some signifigance. If someone is just 'nice' to win approval, but is really a rotten person inside, he/she probably is going to 'finish last'.




i think someone being nice and a good person usually go hand and hand.but i do agree that there are alot of people that are nice just to seek approval from others,or because there getting something out of it or have a hidden motive behind it.alot of people do things for the wrong reasons..


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