# Dating School



## escapist (Jun 15, 2010)

So I'd like to move this to its own thread. Plenty of people have opinions educated dating so whats your take on this episode of Dr. Phil?

Dr. Phil 1
Dr. Phil 2

He makes some interesting points, well truthfully I think lots of people on the show had very interesting and valid points. There are two main schools of thought when it comes to successful dating: Inner Game, and Outer Game. I'm a huge fan of inner game but can totally see how one can achieve inner game from learning outer game skills like, solid openers (aka ways to start a conversation).

So, whats your take on dating schools? If women can read Cosmo, learn how to do their hair, makeup, and wear push-up bra's. Like Dr. Phil said, is it so bad for guys to learn how to do similar things?


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## Zowie (Jun 15, 2010)

I saw this and died laughing. Oh lord, this is going to be fun.


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## escapist (Jun 15, 2010)

bionic_eggplant said:


> I saw this and died laughing. Oh lord, this is going to be fun.



wow that wasn't even enough time to watch the video. Did you have it on high speed?

Rather than polluting other peoples threads on the topic for years to come I figured it best to give it, its own space. I will probably always continue to beveling as I do, that learning how to date is not a bad thing. Truth is truth no matter its source. That's a logical statement that is hard to defeat. The thing is people are choosing to argue that point from a purely emotional stand point. I do not see why its considered bad to seek advice and knowledge from sources outside of themselves. If I'm totally wrong than the education many of us went to school for was just as worthless, according to that logic.


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## JenFromOC (Jun 15, 2010)

escapist said:


> wow that wasn't even enough time to watch the video. Did you have it on high speed?



I watch Dr. Phil everyday....I've seen this. And yes, still creepy.


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## Paquito (Jun 15, 2010)

"Game" creeps me out...


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## Zowie (Jun 15, 2010)

escapist said:


> wow that wasn't even enough time to watch the video. Did you have it on high speed?



...Now I feel like I've been caught in the act.

I don't read everything everyone posts, and I click maybe a quarter of the links attached.

And I don't like Dr. Phil. But I had a Computer Prog teacher who looks just like him, only fatter.


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## TheMildlyStrangeone (Jun 16, 2010)

personally, I find the whole PUA thing to be a bit sexist. Makes it seem like women are uniform in their thinking and stupid enough to fall for these moves.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

TheMildlyStrangeone said:


> personally, I find the whole PUA thing to be a bit sexist. Makes it seem like women are uniform in their thinking and stupid enough to fall for these moves.



Yeah? Did you watch the videos?


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## chicken legs (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito said:


> "Game" creeps me out...



Hey ..when did you change your name?


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## JenFromOC (Jun 16, 2010)

chicken legs said:


> Hey ..when did you change your name?



That's what I wanna know....


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## Paquito (Jun 16, 2010)

It changed like 30 minutes ago.


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## Zowie (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito?

Shit, it's bad enough with everyone changing their avatars, now if you change your names too I won't know who to side with.

Why Paquito?


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## TheMildlyStrangeone (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> Yeah? Did you watch the videos?



no. I have better things to do than watch 16 minutes of Dr. Phil or however long it is. How about some cliff notes?


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## Paquito (Jun 16, 2010)

bionic_eggplant said:


> Paquito?
> 
> Shit, it's bad enough with everyone changing their avatars, now if you change your names too I won't know who to side with.
> 
> Why Paquito?



Everyone calls me Paco or Paquito, so I figured I'd change it. Besides, free2beme04 sounded too typical 13-year-old's first e-mail address.


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## Zowie (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito said:


> Everyone calls me Paco or Paquito, so I figured I'd change it. Besides, free2beme04 sounded too typical 13-year-old's first e-mail address.



Between the squirrel and free2beme04, I was pretty sure you were 13 for the longest time.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

TheMildlyStrangeone said:


> no. I have better things to do than watch 16 minutes of Dr. Phil or however long it is. How about some cliff notes?



I think its important to see and hear the comments and responses from all parties, the guys doing it, the girls receiving it, and educated commentary. Its easy to poke fun at things you don't understand thats the basis of prejudice in the first place.


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## chicken legs (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> So I'd like to move this to its own thread. Plenty of people have opinions educated dating so whats your take on this episode of Dr. Phil?
> 
> [



LOL..This episode pretty much summed up the other threads arguments...but way nicer..lol.


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## Paquito (Jun 16, 2010)

I feel like the super mysterious, popular kid in school right now.

AKA, the kid in the reddish Adidas shirt.


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## TheMildlyStrangeone (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> I think its important to see and hear the comments and responses from all parties, the guys doing it, the girls receiving it, and educated commentary. Its easy to poke fun at things you don't understand thats the basis of prejudice in the first place.



I have a fairly good idea what the pickup artist does. I don't need to watch a Dr. Phil segment to inform me about it. I don't know about you, but prejudices serve me well in life. Being able to demarcate a situation as being dangerous because of a priori knowledge and making a split second decision based on that, is quite a good thing. Throwing around a word like prejudice in regards to PUA is pure hyperbole. Sure, I might have misconceptions about Pickup artists, but as far as I can tell, it's purely bullshit. Unless you can show me where I am wrong, I will continue to think so.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

TheMildlyStrangeone said:


> I have a fairly good idea what the pickup artist does. I don't need to watch a Dr. Phil segment to inform me about it. I don't know about you, but prejudices serve me well in life. Being able to demarcate a situation as being dangerous because of a priori knowledge and making a split second decision based on that, is quite a good thing. Throwing around a word like prejudice in regards to PUA is pure hyperbole. Sure, I might have misconceptions about Pickup artists, but as far as I can tell, it's purely bullshit. Unless you can show me where I am wrong, I will continue to think so.



The thread is specifically about the video's so if you don't watch them how can you comment on the Original topic. Sorry.


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## Paquito (Jun 16, 2010)

1. "cracking the code to getting women to say yes."

This is off to a great start.

2. Open - to start a conversation by getting the attention focused on you.

"Hey, I'm gonna distract you by asking you a ridiculous question followed by a made-up story, while pretending to care about your input."

Way to build the trust already.

3. Disqualification - acknowledging something about her that isn't perfect."

Because hey, getting my flaws pointed out in a condescending manner really gets me off.

4. Cold reads - imparting overused stereotypes on several girls in the hopes that this will further their interest.

Arguing with my friend over which one of us is the "good one" or "bad one" in front of a total stranger totally gets my shit going.

5. False time constraints - acting like you have to be somewhere, even though the only reason you came out to the bar/club is because you're lonely and want to show off how much of a fucking playa' you are.

*hint: walking off in the middle of a conversation because "you have to get back to your bros" really makes you a winner.


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## TheMildlyStrangeone (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> The thread is specifically about the video's so if you don't watch them how can you comment on the Original topic. Sorry.



Are you the moderator of this forum? I wasn't aware I had to curtail my replies to suit you. You are peddling bullshit to guys who are insecure and have trouble dating women. I find that highly reprehensible.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito said:


> 1. "cracking the code to getting women to say yes."
> 
> This is off to a great start.
> 
> ...



Yeah and you missed the part where they said they didn't use made up stories, they tailored stories from there life to demonstrate values.


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## veil (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> Yeah and you missed the part where they said they didn't use made up stories, they tailored stories from there life to demonstrate values.



... you really don't understand how this might come across as manipulative? i know you aren't, but... really?


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## Paquito (Jun 16, 2010)

Going to start a new post since I feel bad about editing the first one every five seconds.

6. Talking about "getting results" and "implementing techniques to gain her attraction" isn't creepy at all. 

7. Guy openly admits that breaking down some of her self-esteem is completely acceptable.

8. I fail to see how all of these techniques really exude your inner self. Each of these guys becomes a carbon copy of the two "teachers," which really weirds me out. Why can't they actually be themselves? If a guy is a shy guy, does he really need to be "on point" all the time? What if his dream girl really likes shy guys? I agree with the blonde saying that it isn't natural.

Annnd the videos are done.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

veil said:


> ... you really don't understand how this might come across as manipulative? i know you aren't, but... really?



yeah I am aware, and you are correct. I said it before I more of an inner game guy. Meaning trust your instincts and feelings. I've just seen guys gain faith in their feelings real fast from using simple stuff like this a few times. They usually blow it up but, its nice to gain even a little faith that you can do more.


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## chicken legs (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito said:


> Going to start a new post since I feel bad about editing the first one every five seconds.
> 
> 6. Talking about "getting results" and "implementing techniques to gain her attraction" isn't creepy at all.
> 
> ...



Muhahahaha....not quite. I have a Pua vid "Leave it to Beaver Style" for those shy ones with a more sensitive palate..lol. It stars "Bewitched's" Dick York before he came out of the closet.

Part 1 and Part 2


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## Blackjack (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito said:


> 5. False time constraints - acting like you have to be somewhere, even though the only reason you came out to the bar/club is because you're lonely and want to show off how much of a fucking playa' you are.
> 
> *hint: walking off in the middle of a conversation because "you have to get back to your bros" really makes you a winner.



It works better if you note that you only have 26 minutes to make it to the gym.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

So most of the constructive stuff here really just agree's with me that the external stuff kind of sucks. Unfortunately it seems to be whats put out there the most. I love the guys who are with RSD (Real Social Dynamics). The main guy realized that the routines were crap and made all his guys stop teaching it and find out what the next level of deeper understanding was. They ended up with something that is much more centered around inner game (go figure).


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## bmann0413 (Jun 16, 2010)

I might need dating school. lol


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## Esther (Jun 16, 2010)

All this shit annoys me.
(and by 'shit', I mean... highly contrived dating)


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

At this point I'm still wondering when more people going to actually post on my original topic of what is in the videos.


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## HDANGEL15 (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> At this point I'm still wondering when more people going to actually post on my original topic of what is in the videos.



*i think the point was made very clearly...what *MOST* people think here......:doh:*


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

When your talking about the first 5 or so minutes of a conversation that this all takes place in its a bit silly to think of it as something that can "Make someone Fall for you". Thats my personal opinion of it anyways.

That said, I can see how it can open doors a bit more if your used to them getting slammed in your face.



Paquito said:


> 1. "cracking the code to getting women to say yes."
> 
> This is off to a great start.



"Getting to Yes" is a very popular catch phrase. For many in the work world it is requried reading. In life there are few times when no is what someone wants to hear. Unless its related to "So my choices are Or Death?" (yeah I had to use it again).



Paquito said:


> 2. Open - to start a conversation by getting the attention focused on you.
> 
> "Hey, I'm gonna distract you by asking you a ridiculous question followed by a made-up story, while pretending to care about your input."
> 
> Way to build the trust already.



I really don't know anybody who ask questions without caring about the input. Whats the point of even starting the conversation if you don't care? Or are you just assuming you know that someone doesn't care and they are just following robotic instructions of how to create attraction like that will work? I'm not sure why it would even have to be something made up that isn't true. Manny in the inner game community warn against such tactics that are disingenuous. Mostly cause people can't just read it they can feel it. I personally think its better (and funner) to have conversation that express my personality. Some of the best in my opinion are questions that are silly and fun, like, "If Pappa Smurf, Grouchy Smurf, Hefty Smurf, and smurffet all got in a fight who do you think would win". Ok yeah, it only works with people my age, but to me its a hilarious question that could generate random thoughts and conversations for a good run and get some fun laughs as you hear everybody input.

(I mean come on old dudes are tricky and smart, Grouchy could just go crazy, hefty is strong, but smurffet...idk know man I could see that girl tossing her little smurf shoes and everything while she pull on Pappa's beard and knees Grouchy in the balls and whatnot lol).



Paquito said:


> 3. Disqualification - acknowledging something about her that isn't perfect."
> 
> Because hey, getting my flaws pointed out in a condescending manner really gets me off.



Thats kind of the point, they don't want people to see as just another guy trolling. Many guys who use this stuff are using it far beyond just getting a girl. Social Networking is nothing new. So shutting of the, "I'm just another guy who's gonna tell you how smokin' you are" is exactly what needs to be done. You never know who the person your talking to is and who/what they know. I've met some very cool people just chatting it up. I got super lucky one night when the woman I was talking to was in my line of work and had lots of great tips on graphic design. 

The reality is most people who are single and not overly grouchy and moody are always willing for that right somebody to come into their life. Like they said if you hurt someones feelings or made them feel bad, you probably didn't do it right. The truth is just cause one a guy talk to a woman he thinks he might be interested doesn't guarantee that he is interested either. He wants just as much room to be cosidered a normal person to rather than other guy saying, "Can I have your number?".

Personally I read, "How to win friends and influence people" a long time ago. One of the first principals in it was never loose a number and stay in contact with people. Even the guy who created "The Mystery Method" (Erik Von Markovik) has admitted to how learning all this changed his life financially. I can assure you that getting people to see you as a person first is huge in expanding your social network and thusly your financial network.



Paquito said:


> 4. Cold reads - imparting overused stereotypes on several girls in the hopes that this will further their interest.
> 
> Arguing with my friend over which one of us is the "good one" or "bad one" in front of a total stranger totally gets my shit going.



LOL you've never imagined you knew what someone else felt or thought? Funny cause I swear you do it all the time. Seriously though, Its not Rocket Science, and being playful with it is just down-right fun. Just watch out if you start doing Palm reading and stuff you might find yourself as tonights performer entertaining everybody as you attempted interpret the lines in their hands.



Paquito said:


> 5. False time constraints - acting like you have to be somewhere, even though the only reason you came out to the bar/club is because you're lonely and want to show off how much of a fucking playa' you are.
> 
> *hint: walking off in the middle of a conversation because "you have to get back to your bros" really makes you a winner.



I think the term "False time constraints" is a bit misleading myself. I was taught to do this at work a long time ago. They just called it time constraints. There is nothing false about it. I really only do have just a second. I have just a second to evaluate if this is a conversation I even want to have. I made the mistake once of not using a time constraint once and I got totally locked into a conversation I didn't want to have. I could have been doing far more productive things. That was the first time I realized there was nothing false about it. So I just cut the BS part of it where some people make up the reason. I use real reasons, or I simply state it is, "I just got a second...".

Time constraints, even false ones, are just nothing new. I know bosses who make sure their secretary beeps in within 5-10 minutes of someone coming into their office unscheduled. Then they get to decided if they want to continue having the conversation or not by telling the secretary to hold his calls or he can say, "I'm sorry we'll have to continue this later, I have something need to take care of (which more often than not is probably true, meaning he just has to get back to work too).

*Hint: if the conversation was going so bad that you had to bail out in the middle of it; than God you had something like that lined up so you could get out of it. I hope I never forget to have one ready to go.

--------------
Thanks for taking the time to reply to the video and give real feedback. While my perception of it wasn't as harsh as your its nice that I'm not the only one who can see that some of it is silly. I think we both agree if even more genuine self was put into their routines I think they would find themselves light-years beyond where they are now.


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## BLUEeyedBanshee (Jun 16, 2010)

Please refrain from personal attacks and baiting.

Also photos that have nothing to do with the topic will be removed.

Thanks!

/mod


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 16, 2010)

This all just seems hokey to me. I assume, when reading about PUA and "Inner Game/Outer Game" etc ... that the men who "enroll" in these kind of courses are probably those who need them the least (I'll leave it at that). I truly believe that the people who focus so much on building interpersonal skills, learning how to "get the girl", etc ... are probably very easy to pick out -- and avoid -- in a crowd. They scream of desperation, or worse.

And the guys who attempt to play into insecurities, approach with polished lines, or play those oh-so-beyond-easy to recognize games (affected disinterest, variations on the "do you trust me" etc) ... the thing is, there are probably so many who are basically decent, yet they've been led to believe that they need some special formula and oh, man, is that formula easy to recognize. Problem is, most people will assume that the PUA "Art of The Game" type stuff is all about the shallow and the casual and they won't look beyond that. I wouldn't.


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## Sasquatch! (Jun 16, 2010)

I watched the first video.

I already do some of the stuff on this PUA thingimajiggers, by the sounds of it. The "time constraint" one is something I do in order not to be overbearing/overstay my welcome. And if we're getting on, I'll definitely tease her.

The problem with this PUA thingimajiggers is that it seems to be designed to lead to the bedroom, not a relationship.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> This all just seems hokey to me. I assume, when reading about PUA and "Inner Game/Outer Game" etc ... that the men who "enroll" in these kind of courses are probably those who need them the least (I'll leave it at that). I truly believe that the people who focus so much on building interpersonal skills, learning how to "get the girl", etc ... are probably very easy to pick out -- and avoid -- in a crowd. They scream of desperation, or worse.
> 
> And the guys who attempt to play into insecurities, approach with polished lines, or play those oh-so-beyond-easy to recognize games (affected disinterest, variations on the "do you trust me" etc) ... the thing is, there are probably so many who are basically decent, yet they've been led to believe that they need some special formula and oh, man, is that formula easy to recognize. Problem is, most people will assume that the PUA "Art of The Game" type stuff is all about the shallow and the casual and they won't look beyond that. I wouldn't.



Although I really enjoyed your commentary and it kind of touched on what I was asking. I am interested more in reactions to Dating Schools and education as presented in the video's by Dr. Phill. Its not really so much about PUA even if a Dating "Guru" is a PUA. Chicken Legs found female oriented video's for body language and stuff like that on how to tell if a woman is interested. I said it earlier most of what was talked about on the show is only the first 5-10 minutes of conversation.

What I really liked was the cometary from the girls the guys met. I get the feeling you didn't see the video or you would have known exactly what their reaction was to it. If it was or was not detectable, and stuff like that.

The reason I specifically brought up inner/outer game theory while it wasn't spoken of too deeply in the show its a huge factor. There are dating programs out there that have ZERO preprogrammed anything. It doesn't seem like many people are aware of that. Those kind of programs are growing in popularity too. Not everybody doing these programs have poor self-esteem, or are even bad looking. Often quite the opposite now. As the business booms and gets more popular a wider market has become aware and started consuming the products. Here in Vegas I ran into a wealthy magician, while chatting it up in his car I find out not only does he know about these dating guru's, he hung out with the founder of RSD (Real Social Dynamics). I about cracked up when he said the first the guy did was make him take off his $10,000 rollex, because that sounds just like the guy. He's big on relying on just who you are, not your money or anything else.

Your right though if I was talking about PUA I could see how they could/would make assumptions that would stop them from exploring what I'm saying. Thing is I'm not specifically talking about PUA. I'm talking about any general schooling or education in dating, I'm specifically talking about what was in the video's. Nobody knows someone who could really learn some skills on not to be so cheesy or annoying when they want to get to know a girl? Is it just in Vegas that there are campy guys with crappy lines? I have a friend that no matter how much advice I gave him he would DESTORY IT, and find a way of making it sound like the cop hitting on a woman. He, opens almost every woman with, "Hello beautiful goddess how you doin'? You know you make men drool cause you know women rule". I want to puke when I see him do it. I guess thats what I think of when I think of guys who need dating school. He is like oblivious to how creepy weird it is that, that is the first thing out of his mouth. The fact that he is married blows my mind.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 16, 2010)

escapist said:


> Although I really enjoyed your commentary and it kind of touched on what I was asking. I am interested more in reactions to Dating Schools and education as presented in the video's by Dr. Phill. Its not really so much about PUA even if a Dating "Guru" is a PUA. Chicken Legs found female oriented video's for body language and stuff like that on how to tell if a woman is interested. I said it earlier most of what was talked about on the show is only the first 5-10 minutes of conversation.
> 
> What I really liked was the cometary from the girls the guys met. I get the feeling you didn't see the video or you would have known exactly what their reaction was to it. If it was or was not detectable, and stuff like that.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't see the videos in question, because I'm at worked and YouTube is blocked (go figure!). But I did google some of the principles you were talking about. Seriously, most seem obvious to the point of not requiring any kind of special instruction. And some are just ... no. I wouldn't advise many of the approaches suggested, as a woman, and as a (younger, unmarried) woman who has been approached in that manner. 

Escapist, I don't assume that the guys looking for PUA-specific approaches are bad looking or lacking in self-esteem; in fact, I think the opposite is likely true. Again, I acknowledge that I'm operating on my own assumption, so it's not like I'm unbiased. What I was really trying to say is that I believe many women who are seeking something more than a casual encounter would assume the same: that a skilled PUA isn't someone they'd want to spend much time with. And being unwilling to extend an opportunity means that they may not ever see that the guy could be looking for the same thing. 

I don't think that guys need special schooling. I truly believe that it's simply a matter of being willing to take a chance -- risking the possibility of multiple rejections, just being himself, and putting himself out there (as you mentioned before, though ... doesn't hurt to keep the warts to himself, at least in the 'getting to know you' stage). There's no secret "tried and true" technique -- what works for you, works for you. The next guy, no matter how closely he mirrors that technique, is likely to fail miserably. It's really obvious, when someone is trying a bit too hard, when something isn't coming naturally. My husband was painfully shy when we met. Socially inept. Nerdy. And really, really smart. I loved all of that about him, and I still do today, more than 20 years later. I believe that there really is (multiple) someone(s) out there for all of us. Techniques requiring that a guy be something he is not ... well, he's not going to entice a woman of quality. Let's leave it at that.


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

Sasquatch! said:


> I watched the first video.
> 
> I already do some of the stuff on this PUA thingimajiggers, by the sounds of it. The "time constraint" one is something I do in order not to be overbearing/overstay my welcome. And if we're getting on, I'll definitely tease her.
> 
> The problem with this PUA thingimajiggers is that it seems to be designed to lead to the bedroom, not a relationship.



Not really true at all. Its designed to get you actually communicating with people you might be interested in. Thats why I stress its only about the first few minutes of communication. After that yeah you better actually have a plan for a date or a 2nd meeting if you actually get her number.

Your right, I said it too, time constraints and stuff like that, none of its really new. The dating schools and trainers just put it into a package thats written down and explains the why's and hows of it. Earlier I showed a clip of a 1950's dating video, its VERY much like the current dating education stuff just more "Leave it to Beaver" style.

Most of the good commentary comes in the 2nd video so give it a watch if you want to see what the girls thought about it. Its Dr. Phil of course he's gonna play out both sides of the story.


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## Paquito (Jun 16, 2010)

People aren't watching the videos mostly because when someone comments on the video (like this guy), all that's given in return are the same comments made in every single thread when PUA comes up. 

Seriously, the response to my commentary and the response to other people's opinions in countless other threads was _exactly the same_. What's the point?


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

Paquito said:


> People aren't watching the videos mostly because when someone comments on the video (like this guy), all that's given in return are the same comments made in every single thread when PUA comes up.
> 
> Seriously, the response to my commentary and the response to other people's opinions in countless other threads was _exactly the same_. What's the point?



The point is to move the discussion out of other peoples threads. They don't like it and I don't blame them. Also, who's to say everybody has the same opinion. I find it interesting that the vast majority it of the audience on the show felt fine about it, but that isn't reflected here at all. I have to wonder if its cause others are afraid they will be ridiculed for agreeing with Dr. Phil?


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## WillSpark (Jun 16, 2010)

I watched. And here's my total response to all of it.

This entire thing is discussing how to fake it, and how to try to animate these "playa" qualities within people, and it is going to be unnatural, as if someone is following a rulebook to get a hookup. You (escapist) comment on how the advice itself is good and the qualities it teaches are the right way to do things, but that only works if you actually do them, not if you are trying to follow them.

If you want to use this type of thing, it needs to come from you, not a mentor or guru. This is why the concept is so rediculous. If you learn these steps and make effort to incorporate them into your habit, it's going to fail beyond maybe that first hook-up because you're trying to use these guides, and aren't actually just being comfortable. Fake confidence isn't confidence. Sure, they can be some form of building block to help you become comfortable with interacting on your own, but they are going to fail miserably for anyone trying to use them as they are claiming; as the answer for girl trouble.


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## chicken legs (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm not as wordy as others but..

1. use tips from pua stuff to talk to the girl..or in my case ..really big guys:blush:

2. use tips from Men are from Mars and Women are Venus (an Oprah fav) to make it more meaningful.

3. Then move on to some Tony Robbins for overall improvement. LOL..Shallow Hal and Goodbye Lover (Ellen steals the show) come to mind.

3. Then finish it off with some Robert Kiyosaki to pay for it all and Suze Ormand..so you have some left to retire together.



Wow thats a lot of reading..***starts playing Farmville**

I need more neighbors..just saying...(ok..I'm not joking on that one).


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

WillSpark said:


> I watched. And here's my total response to all of it.
> 
> This entire thing is discussing how to fake it, and how to try to animate these "playa" qualities within people, and it is going to be unnatural, as if someone is following a rulebook to get a hookup. You (escapist) comment on how the advice itself is good and the qualities it teaches are the right way to do things, but that only works if you actually do them, not if you are trying to follow them.
> 
> If you want to use this type of thing, it needs to come from you, not a mentor or guru. This is why the concept is so rediculous. If you learn these steps and make effort to incorporate them into your habit, it's going to fail beyond maybe that first hook-up because you're trying to use these guides, and aren't actually just being comfortable. Fake confidence isn't confidence. Sure, they can be some form of building block to help you become comfortable with interacting on your own, but they are going to fail miserably for anyone trying to use them as they are claiming; as the answer for girl trouble.



Thanks, I think I see where your coming from. I never had a guide with me, or a rule book in my back pocket. Maybe thats exactly why it worked so well for me personally. I never went to a class and ran out and tried to do everything on some sort of list. It was awkward enough just getting out of my shell enough to some of the smallest parts at first. However over time each success had a cumulative effect and brought me to deeper understand of what I was really doing.

Once again this might also be why I'm such a big believer in understanding the concepts of what attraction is and how/why it works. Like owning yourself, mind body, and soul (the true fountain of self-confidence if you ask). I guess I do look at much of life though martial arts colored glasses. I practice a style of martial arts that doesn't have forms. It has techniques on the surface, and it has concepts behind them. Generally the concepts are difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced the full technique that is why a good Uke (person doing the technique with you) is important. When you practice and feel good ukemi you can feel and gain understanding on a deeper level of the concepts that lay behind the technique itself. Once learned the technical aspects of a technique it is expect that in time you will understand the deeper concepts by the time you reach Sho Dan (Black Belt), a process that takes on average 5 years of training. Once you obtain integrated knowledge of technique and concept you can fight very effectively free form with no need for forms that have to be repeated day in and day out.

I think its a absolute misconception if people expect to read a book over night and the next day be amazing at anything. Isn't everything in life that understood on a deeper level obtained from, careful practice, study, and observation?


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

chicken legs said:


> I'm not as wordy as others but..
> 
> 1. use tips from pua stuff to talk to the girl..or in my case ..really big guys:blush:
> 
> ...



I think I did all that but Goodbye Lover, and Suze Ormand. But you already know I absorb lots of books and media (Not really a big fan of men are from mars stuff, maybe I should read it again).


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## escapist (Jun 16, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I didn't see the videos in question, because I'm at worked and YouTube is blocked (go figure!). But I did google some of the principles you were talking about. Seriously, most seem obvious to the point of not requiring any kind of special instruction. And some are just ... no. I wouldn't advise many of the approaches suggested, as a woman, and as a (younger, unmarried) woman who has been approached in that manner.



Understood, and somewhat agreed. I think they are simply taught because there is a market out there. I just found out this month David DeAngelo made $100,000,000 in the last 9 years with his dating courses (Double your Dating, Cocky Comedy and stuff like that). He talks about stuff like understanding the "Critical Counterintuitive", you that one thing that everybody else does but you do whats Counterintuitive and its exactly the right thing to do. Thats just not a concept I had ever heard or understood. I saw it all the time when the popular guys would mess with "The Hot Chick" and she'd just love them for it. I never got that till I heard David D. talk about it. It might not be required but it seems to be well received if his sales are that high, and he is only one among many.




TraciJo67 said:


> Escapist, I don't assume that the guys looking for PUA-specific approaches are bad looking or lacking in self-esteem; in fact, I think the opposite is likely true. Again, I acknowledge that I'm operating on my own assumption, so it's not like I'm unbiased. What I was really trying to say is that I believe many women who are seeking something more than a casual encounter would assume the same: that a skilled PUA isn't someone they'd want to spend much time with. And being unwilling to extend an opportunity means that they may not ever see that the guy could be looking for the same thing.



Yes we are, we are very bad and pitiful . Interestingly enough, Chicken Legs thought I was a player, and wanted to just be friends. She had no clue I was really a relationship guy. In fact most guys I've ever had one on one time about this stuff were relationship guys. My best friend who got me into this so I could teach him is getting married now in a few months and his friend who came with him to Vegas to learn from me got married a while back. Soooo yeah, probably a HUGE misconception that guys who know this or buy products and tickets to seminars related to it are only interested in 1 night stands. Watch out ladies you might think you're getting a 1 night stand, but what your getting is a life long commitment lol.




TraciJo67 said:


> I don't think that guys need special schooling. I truly believe that it's simply a matter of being willing to take a chance -- risking the possibility of multiple rejections, just being himself, and putting himself out there (as you mentioned before, though ... doesn't hurt to keep the warts to himself, at least in the 'getting to know you' stage). There's no secret "tried and true" technique -- what works for you, works for you. The next guy, no matter how closely he mirrors that technique, is likely to fail miserably. It's really obvious, when someone is trying a bit too hard, when something isn't coming naturally. My husband was painfully shy when we met. Socially inept. Nerdy. And really, really smart. I loved all of that about him, and I still do today, more than 20 years later. I believe that there really is (multiple) someone(s) out there for all of us. Techniques requiring that a guy be something he is not ... well, he's not going to entice a woman of quality. Let's leave it at that.



I think the thing that got me out the door was when one of the guys, I believe it was Erik von Markovik said, "What if I told you, all you have to do is go out and have 250 conversations with women, you would start having phenomenal success with women?". I'm like, uh well, I've blown plenty of them up so far I'm sure I only have 100 or so more to go lol.

I am with you. I used to believe in predefined fate, there there was only one person out there for us. Now that I've actually gone out my door for the past few years and discovered amazing women everywhere I met them I was floored that I hadn't seen it before. Even The "rare and elusive FFA" isn't that freakishly rare. I've met and dated quite a few now. I just had to learn how to listen for them and pay attention to them.

So maybe schools aren't required, but man, I still think they should be so some guys would stop using crappy lines and stuff lol. No you can't make everybody love you, but you can certainly learn things that improve your chances of recognizing the ones that are right for you.


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## LovesBigMen (Jun 17, 2010)

chicken legs said:


> I'm not as wordy as others but..
> 
> 1. use tips from pua stuff to talk to the girl..or in my case ..really big guys:blush:
> 
> ...





Oh oh oh I have farm ville, but I havn't played in a while or cafe world or anything xD. It gets addicting for me so I have to make my self stop hahaha Fun stuff though the hippie cows I have seen are very cool. Okay imma stop now:happy:


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## Tad (Jun 17, 2010)

I think that really things are a matter of degree. 

If you know a guy who is doing horrible at dating, and you notice, for example, that his clothes are always rumpled looking, would you say "Well, rumpled is how he is, he shouldn't change that" or would you mention to him that the rumpled clothes give a message of 'don't care about appearance' and that he might want to get things ironed (or wear things that don't need ironing)? The latter not just to improve his chances with women, but in part as a general life lesson.

A lot of 'dating advice' really boils down to general life skills, just cast in a particular light. Conversely, taking a lot of life skills to heart tends to improve your bearing and manner in a way that will help with dating, whether that is the intent or not. They are really two sides of the same coin, they may look different, but they are fundamentally attached. 

There are some specific bits that are all about breaking through typical defenses, barriers, etc, that are not such general life skills, although a lot overlap with sales techniques and other ways to influence people in a variety of settings. 

All of the above fall under the broader parameters of understanding human behavior, predicting it, and knowing how to work with it.

The thing is, sex sells. Offer a guide on how to be more confident, and you are one more book on a shelf, if you ever get that far. Tell guys that you can get them more dates, and suddenly their wallets are more apt to come out....after all, how much did they spend on drinks last Saturday night without ever talking to a woman?

Now, personally, I think trying to meet strangers is just about the worst plan for building a longer term relationship. The odds of being compatible just seem so ridiculously low. It is kind of like planning to get rich by going to a casino. I think you are far better off at simply meeting a goodly number of new people and keeping an open mind and friendly visage. But if you don't really want a longer term relationship, you just want to date and maybe get sex occasionally, while having that thrill of the hunt.....I guess hitting the bars every Saturday night might make sense?


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## Buffetbelly (Jun 17, 2010)

1. Wear tight clothes. If you have a shirt that lets the bottom of your belly peek out, that's perfect.

2. If there's food around, eat a lot and with great gusto. 

3. If you let a little gravy dribble down your chin, women find that irresistable.

4. Pat your belly from time to time and maybe give it a little jiggle, especially if you think she might be watching.

5. When she comes up and starts talking to you, be sure to exclaim about how much weight you've gained recently and how none of your clothes fit. Talk about how difficult it is to fit into airplane seats and other tight places --women love this.

6. Invite her out for a bite to eat, especially if you've just eaten and she hasn't.

7. Be sure to accidentally bump her with your belly --just not too hard or obviously.


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## escapist (Jun 17, 2010)

Buffetbelly said:


> 1. Wear tight clothes. If you have a shirt that lets the bottom of your belly peek out, that's perfect.
> 
> 2. If there's food around, eat a lot and with great gusto.
> 
> ...



*LOL F'n hell man, I so had to rep you for that. Mostly cause I've done pretty much all that automatically.*


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## WillSpark (Jun 17, 2010)

Buffetbelly said:


> 1. Wear tight clothes. If you have a shirt that lets the bottom of your belly peek out, that's perfect.
> 
> 2. If there's food around, eat a lot and with great gusto.
> 
> ...



Everything except the gravy thing...that's just kinda gross.


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## escapist (Jun 17, 2010)

WillSpark said:


> Everything except the gravy thing...that's just kinda gross.



Kind of agree, but the other day I spilled a bit of sauce on my moob and Chicken Legs caught me licking it off my nipple.....apparently it really was hot.


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## Esther (Jun 18, 2010)

Hahahaha. I love long, mustard-stained beards too... MMMMM


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## Melian (Jun 18, 2010)

Esther said:


> Hahahaha. I love long, mustard-stained beards too... MMMMM



Oh definitely. And when a guy walks around with an entire chicken wing stuck to his face, my panties just fly right off. LOL.


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## Hozay J Garseeya (Jun 18, 2010)

Melian said:


> Oh definitely. And when a guy walks around with an entire chicken wing stuck to his face, my panties just fly right off. LOL.



so . . . where are your panties?


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## escapist (Jun 18, 2010)

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> so . . . where are your panties?



Is it messed up that I got hungry seeing you eat that?...Damn it looks good.


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## chicken legs (Jun 18, 2010)

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> so . . . where are your panties?



hahaha..were you sitting in the audience?


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## Paquito (Jun 18, 2010)

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> so . . . where are your panties?



Universal Studios? Man those huge turkey legs make me hungry, and I already had one today while waiting in the worst line in America.


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## JenFromOC (Jun 19, 2010)

escapist said:


> Is it messed up that I got hungry seeing you eat that?...Damn it looks good.



The same thing happened to me....I want one so bad right now.


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## escapist (Jun 19, 2010)

JenFromOC said:


> The same thing happened to me....I want one so bad right now.



I know right, bastard teasing a bunch of food lovers with a big hunk of meat.


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## Sasquatch! (Jun 19, 2010)

Ugh, looks gross.


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## Zowie (Jun 19, 2010)

Sasquatch! said:


> Ugh, looks gross.



I honestly don't see the appeal of walking about with a huge hunk of meat either. Must be a non-American thing.


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## escapist (Jun 19, 2010)

bionic_eggplant said:


> I honestly don't see the appeal of walking about with a huge hunk of meat either. Must be a non-American thing.



Well BBQ is the only truly national food of the US. We take pride in our roasting of meat slathered in tangy-spicy sauces....and trust me if you like meat, you haven't lived till you had Texas BBQ!


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## Hozay J Garseeya (Jun 19, 2010)

escapist said:


> Well BBQ is the only truly national food of the US. We take pride in our roasting of meat slathered in tangy-spicy sauces....and trust me if you like meat, you haven't lived till you had Texas BBQ!



Not that I go disagreeing with you on every post, but I can completely agree with you on this. 

Although, I'll take Texas Beef BBQ any day, but I think the South's pork Ribs bbq usually take the medal. Something about their style just makes me think their ribs taste better. But Texas and beef, hands down, they take the cake.


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## djudex (Jun 19, 2010)

You guys don't know from beef. Come to Alberta, I'll show you real steak.


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## WillSpark (Jun 19, 2010)

I live in the Kansas City area. We get the best cuts of fresh steaks at cheaper prices and our BBQ is a national staple. You can't touch me.


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## djudex (Jun 19, 2010)

Corn fed beef will never even come close to grain fed, sorry.


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## Sasquatch! (Jun 19, 2010)

WillSpark said:


> You can't touch me.


Not sure I want to


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## chicken legs (Jun 19, 2010)

Is it Hammer Time yet.


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## Zowie (Jun 19, 2010)

djudex said:


> You guys don't know from beef. Come to Alberta, I'll show you real steak.



I second this. As much as I'd love to be a seperatist pq douche, Alberta has amazing meat.


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## djudex (Jun 19, 2010)

bionic_eggplant said:


> Alberta has amazing meat.



Are we talking cows or men now? :batting:


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## veil (Jun 19, 2010)

Sasquatch! said:


> Ugh, looks gross.





bionic_eggplant said:


> I honestly don't see the appeal of walking about with a huge hunk of meat either. Must be a non-American thing.




THANK YOU BOTH! 



djudex said:


> Corn fed beef will never even come close to grain fed, sorry.



jeez man, you have to tell people this? i'm a vegetarian & even i know that.


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## escapist (Jun 19, 2010)

WillSpark said:


> I live in the Kansas City area. We get the best cuts of fresh steaks at cheaper prices and our BBQ is a national staple. You can't touch me.



I just got a little bit jealous. All the travel shows talk about BBQ from there.


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## FemFAtail (Jun 21, 2010)

Buffetbelly said:


> 1. Wear tight clothes. If you have a shirt that lets the bottom of your belly peek out, that's perfect.
> 
> 2. If there's food around, eat a lot and with great gusto.
> 
> ...



Well, it obviously worked on me, big boy! :kiss2:


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## escapist (Jun 21, 2010)

FemFAtail said:


> Well, it obviously worked on me, big boy! :kiss2:



OOoooo Very Nice, think you can remember back to that first chat? Did he do anything on the list from the show? Like not asking interview questions, (where do you work, what do you do, bla, bla, bla)?


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## Melian (Jun 21, 2010)

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> so . . . where are your panties?



Clearly, they reached escape velocity and are long gone. 




bionic_eggplant said:


> I honestly don't see the appeal of walking about with a huge hunk of meat either. Must be a non-American thing.



I don't know about that - I'm born and raised in Canada and find it pretty damn sexy when a hot man eats a huge, tasty steak.


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## BigChaz (Jun 21, 2010)

Melian said:


> Clearly, they reached escape velocity and are long gone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Steak on a stick. I must have it.


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## Buffetbelly (Jun 21, 2010)

escapist said:


> OOoooo Very Nice, think you can remember back to that first chat? Did he do anything on the list from the show? Like not asking interview questions, (where do you work, what do you do, bla, bla, bla)?


 
I've always been big on the bla bla bla. But our first date was at a buffet, so I think we mostly talked about food.


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## escapist (Jun 22, 2010)

Buffetbelly said:


> I've always been big on the bla bla bla. But our first date was at a buffet, so I think we mostly talked about food.



Hahahah too funny, thats the first place Chicken Legs and I went to too lol I've shown the pic before:







Thats just to funny, maybe the BHM/FFA dating rules should be:

1. GO Out To Eat on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Date at least lol.


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## FemFAtail (Jun 22, 2010)

escapist said:


> OOoooo Very Nice, think you can remember back to that first chat? Did he do anything on the list from the show? Like not asking interview questions, (where do you work, what do you do, bla, bla, bla)?



Can I remember! I will never forget our first chat and eventual meeting! He has made an indelible impression on my heart. As soon as I saw him moving toward me and saw his marvelous face I felt a stirring in me like no other. Then he spoke and his voice struck a chord that cannot be stilled to this day! I will share some of our story with you as I have saved every e-mail. He looms so very large in my life in sooooo many ways....

Subject: The Buffet?
Oh, I would love to view a half ton of hungry men filling their bellies tight as drums at the Buffet! Especially if you would be there! You have the most sensual belly I have EVER laid eyes on!
A Female Admirer

From: Buffetbelly
To: FemFAtail

Thanks, shy person! 

When would be a good time? Some saturday afternoon?

If you're too shy you could watch from your own table. 

Actually, just about any time you go you can see huge men stuffing themselves silly. 

(This was effective LINE #1 !!! I started imagining right away that he enjoyed 'stuffing himself silly'!)


To: Buffetbelly
From: FemFATail
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 (It's almost our 1 year anniversary)
Subject: Re: The Buffet?
So when are u usually there? Would have to view you from afar as I am very shy. Your sensual form is fuel for my own fantasies!

Friday, July 24, 2009 7:06 PM
From: "Buffetbelly" 
To: FemFAtail

I can appreciate that. We could pretend to be strangers who just happened to arrive around the same time. We wouldn't have to talk. You could just sit and read the newspaper or whatever.

(Very effective LINE #2! How seductive...The excitement is building for both of us...can you sense it?)


Re: The Buffet?
Friday, July 24, 2009
From: FemFAtail
To: "Buffetbelly"

Funny, I just went there for the first time on Wednesday for lunch. Had never eaten there before, but I brought a book to enjoy while I was there. My daughter is into Manga book so I thought I better check out what she's been reading. I enjoyed the book, the food AND the view! May try it out again on Monday for lunch. Makes me feel a bit like a voyer though. I could just convince myself that I am enjoying a beautiful work of art, which is what you are!

From: FemFAtail
To: buffetbelly
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009
Subject: Golden Corral
Will be there tomorrow for lunch, say 12:30 ish? Wearing black or gray and reading a Manga book.

Re: Golden Corral
Monday, July 27, 2009
From: "Buffetbelly"
To: FemFAtail

Shoot! reading this at 2pm.

It's a bit far from me so I need to arrange the time. This week is not good because of deadlines at work. Next week is better! Good plan with the Manga book --never seen anyone with one at an Americana-type buffet! 

Re: The Buffet?
Monday, July 27, 2009 2:26 PM
From: "Buffetbelly" 
To: FemFAtail

I thought you would enjoy it. There are always quite a few big guys bulking up there. They tend to be big muscular and hairy, like me. This has been described in gay culture as being "a bear". I definitely fit that profile, and other straight guys do too. 

Almost poetic description. I am definitely a bit of an exhibitionist which is part of my attraction towards buffets and other public venues for gluttony, such as eating contests.

I MIGHT be able to come down Thursday --might be closer to 1:30 or 2pm though. 

Effective LINE #3 - "a bit of an exhibitionist"...my massive man is so sexy in the way he exudes such confidence! And yes, he did do some of the things on his list...he drops things on his gorgeous belly all the time and he loves it when I sidle up beside him and wipe it off adoringly with a napkin and water. Of course I rub his belly much longer than the spot requires! :smitten:

I must confess, everytime I re-read these my heart races. I may be persuaded to share some more some other time.....

_He's a real Super Daddy and he knows just what to do!_


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## Zowie (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not sure if this is TMI or vitual face-sucking...
But well, glad you guys are happy together!


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## Melian (Jun 22, 2010)

I've been biting my tongue about so many similar posts.....

Seriously, is this chick for real?? All the puns are giving me diarrhea.


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## Sasquatch! (Jun 22, 2010)

> He's a real Super Daddy and he knows just what to do!



Damn, any more of those posts and I might get classed as bulemic *hurl*


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## Buffetbelly (Jun 22, 2010)

Now don't go scaring her off! I will encourage her to ogle and flirt with other guys --all's fair in love and cyberspace after all.

We don't want to be that couple necking in the corner who embarasses everyone....and maybe even ourselves! (Nah!) :wubu:


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## escapist (Jun 22, 2010)

lol I have the feeling some of us have been Ogled already without knowing it. :blush: :happy:

Great Post you guys. Very personal but very much the tale of an FFA/BHM relationship in my experience as well.

I'm going to bounce this a bit more on topic. There was a heavy amount of fantasy, roll play, and envisioning "future adventures" together in your chats. I had actually heard a Dating Coach (Probably an Associate of the guys on the Dr. Phil Show) talk about it. I'm sure its something lots of people do naturally that builds that attraction and intensity, I just never really thought about it before. 

It wasn't till I heard that dating coach say "future adventure stories/roll-play/fantasy's" are a vital/skill/ability/trait that I even realized it happens all the time. Has anybody else experienced what I'm talking about? Either how much it built the attraction, or how the lack of it killed the experience? If you are one of our posters with little experience could, you see yourself sharing a playful fun fantasy with someone you like but hardly know?


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## Zowie (Jun 22, 2010)

Buffetbelly said:


> Now don't go scaring her off! I will encourage her to ogle and flirt with other guys --all's fair in love and cyberspace after all.
> 
> We don't want to be that couple necking in the corner who embarasses everyone....and maybe even ourselves! (Nah!) :wubu:



Haha, no, I don't want to scare either of you two off. It just makes me laugh, because that's EXACTLY what I keep thinking, you're the couple necking in the corner.


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## FemFAtail (Jun 23, 2010)

bionic_eggplant said:


> Haha, no, I don't want to scare either of you two off. It just makes me laugh, because that's EXACTLY what I keep thinking, you're the couple necking in the corner.



No, I am not scared off. I enjoy the thoughtful dialog that goes on in this forum too much to ever leave it in a huff. Yes, it can get a little over the edge and I have stepped there myself! But, all in all, the way in which no side of a topic is left unturned is just way too intriguing to cause me to tuck my FAtail and run. Laughter is great, Bionic E. And I have no problem laughing at myself. I do realize that I can be an unabashed gusher and that I need to tone it down. Sorry to those whose beautiful stomachs my words must have turned. I will do my utmost to refrain from providing anymore 'ipecac'.

And thank you to 'the escapist' for taking my banter for what it's under-tones started out to be - a building role-play, fantasy that became a solid relationship. It really can and does happen. So take heart my friends. Now excuse me while I find a corner! BB?!


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## Crumbling (Jun 23, 2010)

escapist said:


> Either how much it built the attraction, or how the lack of it killed the experience?



Making plans together fantasising , building anticipation and generally being excited about time you are going to spend together is without a doubt a key factor in building attraction. 

I'm not entirely sure if it's fair to say that lack of ''future fantasy' kills the experience but it's absence is, I think, a sign of a faltering or failing relationship.
If you don't see yourselves together and 'plan for a future' (whether it's "what I'm going to do to you when I get you alone" or "where we're going on vacation" or "our dream home" ) you probably don't have one.

S.


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## FemFAtail (Jun 24, 2010)

Buffetbelly said:


> Now don't go scaring her off! I will encourage her to ogle and flirt with other guys --all's fair in love and cyberspace after all.
> 
> We don't want to be that couple necking in the corner who embarasses everyone....and maybe even ourselves! (Nah!) :wubu:



The way I see it, if someone's panties can fly off from looking at a seductive picture of a big man stuffing himself silly (and I understand that, *FULLY*), then I think we can visit our corner every now and then if we just keep our pants on. 

As for lending me out....just who am I to ogle and flirt with first in this veritable buffet of BHM's? I hope my eyes won't get bigger than my stomach!


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## Hozay J Garseeya (Jun 24, 2010)

FemFAtail said:


> The way I see it, if someone's panties can fly off from looking at a seductive picture of a big man stuffing himself silly (and I understand that, *FULLY*), then I think we can visit our corner every now and then if we just keep our pants on.
> 
> As for lending me out....just who am I to ogle and flirt with first in this veritable buffet of BHM's? I hope my eyes won't get bigger than my stomach!



Did I just get an honorable mention?


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## FemFAtail (Jun 25, 2010)

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> Did I just get an honorable mention?



Yes, I suppose you could also call it a definite ogle and a second tier flirt! The picture needed to show more of where that meat was going to go...your abdominal asset!!!


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## escapist (Jun 29, 2010)

Crumbling said:


> Making plans together fantasising , building anticipation and generally being excited about time you are going to spend together is without a doubt a key factor in building attraction.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure if it's fair to say that lack of ''future fantasy' kills the experience but it's absence is, I think, a sign of a faltering or failing relationship.
> *If you don't see yourselves together and 'plan for a future' (whether it's "what I'm going to do to you when I get you alone" or "where we're going on vacation" or "our dream home" ) you probably don't have one.
> ...



Interesting point that the lack of this factor is a warning sign. I noticed now that I'm in a new relationship (going on 1.5 years now) many of the things I learned about attracting a partner still play into maintaining the relationship. I really have developed a tendency to not sweat the small stuff and keep conversations (and life) moving even if something "scary" (relationship wise) was just said (or done). Getting stuck on those things can not only kill attraction but nuke a long term relationship (or at least make it long and painful).


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