# Official dates



## Bearsy (Mar 7, 2010)

Do you consider "we should chill sometime" or being invited to a party or things along those lines as being asked for a date? 
Or is one supposed to say the D word itself?


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## escapist (Mar 7, 2010)

Bearsy said:


> Do you consider "we should chill sometime" or being invited to a party or things along those lines as being asked for a date?
> Or is one supposed to say the D word itself?



Some do some don't. I've met total strangers and had dinner with them and sometimes more. I don't know if it really matters if it was a date or not. All that mattered was we had a great time and made a great connection and had a lot of fun. I myself prefer not to stress myself out with big planned events except for very special occasions. Other than that to me its all just called living life and having fun.


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## henry73 (Mar 7, 2010)

Bearsy said:


> Do you consider "we should chill sometime" or being invited to a party or things along those lines as being asked for a date?
> Or is one supposed to say the D word itself?



That can be confusing as I've been asked many times by a woman to come over and chill or go to a party with her. I just don't know what to think she says she just thinks of me as a friend but if I don't go over to see her when she asks she seems to get upset with me and don't talk to me for a couple of days. I want to be more than just her friend as I really like her and have for a long time and yes I did tell her how I felt about her and that's when she said she always did think of me as just a friend and nothing more. Oh well to answer your question I say the D word should be used to make it perfectly clear what it is.


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## Guinness (Mar 7, 2010)

Yeah man, don't take a risk. If she says she wants to hang out you should ask what she means. She won't get mad if you are polite and its just good to know for sure.


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## escapist (Mar 7, 2010)

Guinness said:


> Yeah man, don't take a risk. If she says she wants to hang out you should ask what she means. She won't get mad if you are polite and its just good to know for sure.



I totally disagree, I say learn to play it cool at all times. Any "harmless" day at the movies can turn into passion in the bedroom. Regardless of the label the event started with. My point is by asking if its a date might put more stress on her than you want her to feel. I'm not saying be a wuss and never be a man about it. I'm saying you can have fun either way (and you should). I say pick her up, make it a date if she wants it to be or not. Show up and go ready for our date and give her a Han Solo Cool smile and a wink...learn to read women. If she is feeling the mood and the fun, she will most likely jump on board with ya. If not back it down and tease and have fun about your "Dress Rehearsal" for the real date your going to go on; but make it fun, don't be a dick or make her feel like this is all something she has to do. Playful jest that she better be ready on time for the real date or your standing her up. Note: only use one like, "I thought you were getting dressed up for this" if she is already dressed up supper hot, and can tell your busting (playfully having fun) on her.


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## Guinness (Mar 7, 2010)

escapist said:


> I totally disagree, I say learn to play it cool at all times. Any "harmless" day at the movies can turn into passion in the bedroom. Regardless of the label the event started with. My point is by asking if its a date might put more stress on her than you want her to feel. I'm not saying be a wuss and never be a man about it. I'm saying you can have fun either way (and you should). I say pick her up, make it a date if she wants it to be or not. Show up and go ready for our date and give her a Han Solo Cool smile and a wink...learn to read women. If she is feeling the mood and the fun, she will most likely jump on board with ya. If not back it down and tease and have fun about your "Dress Rehearsal" for the real date your going to go on; but make it fun, don't be a dick or make her feel like this is all something she has to do. Playful jest that she better be ready on time for the real date or your standing her up. Note: only use one like, "I thought you were getting dressed up for this" if she is already dressed up supper hot, and can tell your busting (playfully having fun) on her.



Yeah, I'd really rather be up front about things instead of trying to work her over with those tactics. Its always worked for me in the past and I didn't come off like a used car salesman....


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## escapist (Mar 7, 2010)

I didn't realize this was about official dates. I don't consider anything an official date unless its a girlfriend, or she asks me on a date. Other than that its just getting to know someone, or its past that time and its just friends.


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## chicken legs (Mar 7, 2010)

Official dating is when you meet the parents and family. Other than that, I consider "chill time", impromtu dates, one hit wonder dinner dates, group dates, etc...casual dating and not to be taken too seriously. Once it goes to exculsive dating (where you both agree to be exculsive to each other) , you become boyfriend and girlfriend, plan trips together, etc is when its official dating. Official dating to me is one step away from engagement status.


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## stldpn (Mar 7, 2010)

Chilling is friend zone terminology... and if your real desire is to get out of the friend zone you might as well be honest about it. Not all relationships have to be talked to death, but when you're curious about intention. You shouldn't be afraid to ask. Being straightforward signifies a bit of confidence, worst case scenario she says no and you have to explain to her that you needed clarification.


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## escapist (Mar 7, 2010)

Guinness said:


> Yeah, I'd really rather be up front about things instead of trying to work her over with those tactics. Its always worked for me in the past and I didn't come off like a used car salesman....



Thats funny because life is sales. Every time you attempt to persuade anybody to your viewpoint, attitude, or ways of thinking, its sales. Sales are not always done with a pitch, or a line, sometimes they are done just with a smile and a polite conversation about nothing. When people start to buy even when you aren't openly selling you start to hit the upper level of salesmanship. To me dressing up for a date, covering her in flowers, and paying for her meal is just another sales pitch and not a very good one if you ask me. It might work in movies but it rarely creates real attraction.

I guess what I'm saying is just be freaking cool. If she doesn't want to call it a date, who cares? If she wants to call it a date, great! Either way, it should be fun. Thats what she probably wants most, especially if she asked you to go with her.


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## Esther (Mar 8, 2010)

I dunno. Usually when a guy goes out of his way to ask me to hang out one on one, and offers to pick me up and acts gentlemanly... I assume he's interested in me in some way. Guys that just want to be friends will usually invite me to parties and group activities and I'll just drive myself there to meet them. If a guy is interested he doesn't really have to call it a date for me to get it... I just get it.


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## Jes (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> . Note: only use one like, "I thought you were getting dressed up for this" .



Some people think that pick up artist shit works b/c sometimes sex results. but i think some of that stuff can make someone in whom you're* interested feel incredibly shitty. If you want your date to have a real pang of insecurity b/c it's easier to catch a bird with a clipped wing, go for it OP.




*the communal you, escapist, not you. i mean you too, but not just you. yes chicken legs, i'm sure you weren't offended at the line. we get it.


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## WillSpark (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> *I didn't realize this was about official dates.* I don't consider anything an official date unless its a girlfriend, or she asks me on a date. Other than that its just getting to know someone, or its past that time and its just friends.



It helps to read the title of the thread.


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## Paquito (Mar 8, 2010)

Jes said:


> Some people think that pick up artist shit works b/c sometimes sex results. but i think some of that stuff can make someone in whom you're* interested feel incredibly shitty. If you want your date to have a real pang of insecurity b/c it's easier to catch a bird with a clipped wing, go for it OP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





WillSpark said:


> It helps to read the title of the thread.



Will you guys go on official dates with me? 


Oh...I thought you were gonna get dressed up for this...


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## chicken legs (Mar 8, 2010)

Jes said:


> Some people think that pick up artist shit works b/c sometimes sex results. but i think some of that stuff can make someone in whom you're* interested feel incredibly shitty. If you want your date to have a real pang of insecurity b/c it's easier to catch a bird with a clipped wing, go for it OP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would I be offended if someone tried to play off being uncomfortable? 
I really like the movie Hitch it really illustrates that PUA stuff and it has one of my Fav BHMs in it.


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## Bearsy (Mar 8, 2010)

Wait so chicks are into PUA?

I always thought you could smell it from a mile away?


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## chicken legs (Mar 8, 2010)

Bearsy said:


> Wait so chicks are into PUA?
> 
> I always thought you could smell it from a mile away?



LOL...it just comes off as charming, witty, and playful.

It really just helps you get to know the person and it gives that person a chance to get to know you.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Bearsy said:


> Wait so chicks are into PUA?
> 
> I always thought you could smell it from a mile away?



What PUA is or is not is probably a debate for a different forum and an argument that may never be solved. There are many "Methods". Personally I hold the ideal result to be a change in attitude and a realization that if its about anything its about gaining experience and realize finding someone special isn't impossible. Sure it can be difficult and painful. Like Chicken, I love the movie Hitch. It really shows so many of the ins and outs of it. You can plan, plan, and plan again and things will so go differently than you planed (sometimes thats a good thing). Just like in the movie the results can be perfect not because of what you said but because of where it all came from.

This is a post I made just the other day and I'm not sure how you could or would "Smell PUA" based on my personal list when it comes to PUA, dating, pickup or whatever you wish to call it.




> I have hard time believing I just have "all the luck" or I'd hit the jackpot in the casino's more often.
> 
> My experience tells me that its a combo of a few learnable factors:
> 
> ...



Even when I was learning the more scripted stuff (aka PUA training wheels) there was a strong emphasis on developing skills of observation and timing. The whole reasons the nick name Pick-up-Artist (aka PUA) even came around was because the guys were starting to see it was almost an art that required timing, skill, precision, discipline, and a host of other skills for those who were not just naturals at creating attraction. I personally love the psychology aspects of it, the greater depth of understanding ones self and others.

I'm sure Chicken Legs is about to demystify some of the mystery in this. I am in actuality a "natural" it is how I got started because a friend of mine asked me if I knew anything about it. I have a habit of Soaking up information like a database and I soaked up months worth. I was spending some 20 hours or more a week watching and learning form others far more skilled than I was. Then I actually started putting it into practice.

I did it because I recognized that even as a natural, I had choke points. Don't laugh but its usually when very attractive women come onto me. I'm sure plenty are rolling their eyes right now but I'm sorry deal with it, it happens. I was personally sick of it. I was at a crossroads in my life. Just out of a 10 year marriage and not wanting to face that situation again, where the woman of my dreams is in my face and I shutdown. Total inability to respond or even see that she is seriously trying to get my attention. When I shutdown they tend to come in even stronger because they want a reaction to me. I think some of the FFA's know exactly what I'm talking about. I can be way more shy in person than any of you may know. Its most often with someone I'm really into (Perhaps you can relate to why I like Hitch so much).

Its taken me a lot of time and work to change my comfort levels and develop the sensitivity and timing to preserve the comfort levels of a companion. Thats a lot of what PUA is to me. Once you do meet people you really like and want to know better to preserve those comfort levels. Making jokes and playful teasing is a very common and natural method of releasing tension. I'm pretty sure we call all agree the guy (or girl) who does that constantly though is just a jerk. I think a good way to relate to that is family. I don't know about you personally but in my family a playful tease is just that. It would never mean I don't love you and I don't care about you, or you need to come down a notch. Quite the opposite, when its done with someone you have comfort and rapport with its just creates a far more comfortable atmosphere.

Nothing is ever full proof. I'm fairly certain the only thing perfect in the universe is mathematics, so I don't try to be or claim to be, or worry about anything being so. However, if I can get the house odds in my favor, I'm all for it (this is Vegas after all). So, from just being an "Natural" to allowing myself to grow and develop, has taken things to a whole new level were I tend to get exactly what I want. Thats usually why I don't care about hatters or people who want to badmouth any of this. At the end of the day it works for me, I've seen it work for others. My own personal friends have found the woman of their dreams and even got married because of what they learned about themselves from PUA. I'm just happy I got to be involved in the process.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

chicken legs said:


> LOL...it just comes off as charming, witty, and playful.
> 
> It really just helps you get to know the person and it gives that person a chance to get to know you.



Wait, did you just call me witty or are dating some other PUA?  :happy:


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

WillSpark said:


> It helps to read the title of the thread.



Thank you for the advice. I will take it under advisement. Please bill my account for your services. :happy:


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Jes said:


> Some people think that pick up artist shit works b/c sometimes sex results. but i think some of that stuff can make someone in whom you're* interested feel incredibly shitty. If you want your date to have a real pang of insecurity b/c it's easier to catch a bird with a clipped wing, go for it OP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think your right in the communal sense for those who don't realize PUA is not just about women. Its a very all encompassing subject that deals with social dynamics. There are the "Tools" that use it just to get laid (or worse think that is all its about). There is however a higher class of guys who use the same idea's, knowledge, and advice to make million dollar business deals. They deal with high stress social encounters were making new connections is paramount to closing. Failure to connect on a real level can destroy them or make them all in just 10 minutes.

A month or two ago I made reference that I was going to be teaching in Vegas. I decided to close that opportunity to just 1 man. He was in a situation that was very stressful him. He had a business venture that was vital to his business. He ran into at a Erik James Horvat-Markovic (aka Mystery) at a conference recently and was well aware he was using what he knew to his advantage. He came to Vegas to see if I could help empower him as well. I really wasn't sure how to do this in just 1 day, but we spent the better part of a night Eating sushi and discussing the Black Art of PUA, body language, subtle signs of what people are thinking and feeling. As well simple things like holding the attention of big groups in conversation and making a connection with the entire crowed. He knew I've been public speaking since I was young and expressed an envy at my ability to meet attractive women and "just have it work". In the end he did learn and we are since working developing a course specifically geared to businessmen(and women) in his position. He couldn't believe I scaled it down to just him. He knew I could have made $500 a head that night talking to a group. It didn't matter, was worth it to me. He was not the only person to learn something.

I think its important to read for what you think I'm trying to say not just what you want to hear:

"...*learn to read women*. If she is feeling the mood and the fun, *she will most likely jump on board with ya. If not back it down* and tease and *have fun about your "Dress Rehearsal" for the real date* your going to go on; but *make it fun, don't be a dick*..."

It can take work to learn to read and feel all that, but preservation of comfort is a huge part of how attraction works. Not just yours, but hers too. Its why most first encounters blow up or succeed. Think about it...anybody you ever hit it off with. What was it like? Did you have fun? Was it playful? Did you connect on subjects that were important to both of you? At the end of the day did it matter what was said or was it more how it all felt? To me understanding those key points is what PUA is. Don't think for a minute I believe a line gives you game. I laugh at those chumps all the time, and see them far to often when I'm out and I'm the one having fun with my girlfriend and my guy friends. Not struggling like AFC trying to "Get Some" from a girl he probably doesn't really care about. If I was all about "The Lines" its all I would put up here. 

Perhaps I do not write very well or it all comes out wrong. I was never a well gifted writer. Endowed with the power, to make my words set to print, the stuff of legend. I do however interact with people in public face to face very well. Many times it has blessed my life and provide me with the means to care for my loved ones. For this I am grateful, I only wish to provide my perspective on the subjects that others ask for no different than the other posters. I just hope that in the end it reaches the eyes of those who need it and its understood the way it was intended.


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## Melian (Mar 8, 2010)

Bearsy said:


> Wait so chicks are into PUA?
> 
> I always thought you could smell it from a mile away?



I think women are very vulnerable to this (sorry, E  ) until they've been hit with it once - I know I was. They don't really expect that a guy who seems sincere is reading them and telling them exactly what they want to hear, but afterwards (when he has usually gotten what he wanted and fucked off....) they feel violated and disgusted. "Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me" seems to be an appropriate phrase here, where it is incredibly easy to be taken once, but then you become hypersensitive to the warning signs....

ETA: if I asked a guy to "hang out" or something, and he wanted clarification as to whether it was a date, I wouldn't be offended at all. If it was just platonic, I'd say so, and it wouldn't be weird. If I was interested....well, that would give me a chance to be obvious about it. A lot of the time, I was looking for some way to break the ice in these is-he-interested-or-not situations, anyway.


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## Esther (Mar 8, 2010)

Melian said:


> I think women are very vulnerable to this (sorry, E  ) until they've been hit with it once - I know I was. They don't really expect that a guy who seems sincere is reading them and telling them exactly what they want to hear, but afterwards (when he has usually gotten what he wanted and fucked off....) they feel violated and disgusted. "Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me" seems to be an appropriate phrase here, where it is incredibly easy to be taken once, but then you become hypersensitive to the warning signs....



I totally agree with you. I can smell this shit a mile away now.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Melian said:


> I think women are very vulnerable to this (sorry, E  ) until they've been hit with it once - I know I was. They don't really expect that a guy who seems sincere is reading them and telling them exactly what they want to hear, but afterwards (when he has usually gotten what he wanted and fucked off....) they feel violated and disgusted.



No need to apologize to me for being hit on by a tool. Like I said there are guys who have "gone to the dark side" and can't think beyond the fact that certain psychological ploy's do work to create attraction even if its being faked. I don't think its anything knew that guys can and will say anything sometimes to "get what they want". I've met girls who do the same. Some of the PUA knowledge is like having a magic bullet and can be dangerous in the wrong hands. 

In the martial arts world I have taught people how to kill, mangle and maim. I was aware that some would use it with bad intentions. I usually felt ok about it because those same individuals were not willing to stick to it long enough for it to really become an ingrained part of who they were and to develop serious skill (and eventually forget it). A lot of the guys you saw showing off "Skillz" were orange belts or guys who had only gone to class for like 1-4 months. I see the PUA stuff in a similar light. Its not part of them, its not who they are, I'm fairly certain it can be detectable. Most women have habits and patterns of constantly running a "consistency test"; "Is everything he is doing and saying consistent with the story I'm getting". This is where guy can and will fail if they are just using lines or sound bites they got from a buddy and haven't taken it in to a deeper level of actually developing the personality where these sound bites really came from.

These are usually the same guys with crappy cardboard cut-out style and hair. In Vegas I can spot many of them a mile away. I was at lunch at a table with a wonderful woman I met, when I saw a guy near me who was exactly that. I could even tell you the "Method" he was using because it was early stage stuff. So since I almost busted up laughing, I can totally see why others do. It is hard not to once you notice the "Attack of the clones". You see it a lot in LA and Vegas because they are Super-Mega-hot-spots of PUA training seminars and stuff.

So just like martial arts, religion, education, and so many other things. People are always at different levels of understanding and skill. Next time you meet a guy like that recommend he go watch VH1's Tool academy. Its one thing to just dress cool, act cool, and be cool, its another thing when you have to dress up and put your "Game Face" on so you can score. No matter what someones personal level is, I hope the end goal is to learn how to create real attraction. Maybe I'm romanticizing my own experiences. For me it was just incredible to realize I could constantly and consistently make such great connections I could feel with people I really wanted to know.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Esther said:


> I totally agree with you. I can smell this shit a mile away now.



Once again, how can you "Smell it"? Your not smelling real PUA, your smelling cheesed up shit that guys have always done. Since the dawn of time guys were using and getting lines. Real PUA goes so much deeper. Nobody seems to be getting it, even though I post it all the time. Its not reading a book, watching a, video, tv, or a movie. We are talking about hardcore study. I know I've put in hundreds upon hundreds of hours of study and practice. To say I read a book is a laughable joke. This no exaggeration there are seminars that take days. Even with that, it still has to be applied out in the real world. Otherwise its just knowledge without experience that can't turn into true wisdom. Maybe thats just my take on it.

How do you smell a guy that is fun, has a sense of self worth, knows how to relax end enjoy himself, is free to let things be whatever they will, and is willing to never chase a girl who doesn't really want him? You guys, that is exactly the stuff I heard when I watched and learned from truly experienced individuals.

I still say all your smelling are the same Cheesed out Tools that have been around forever. I'm starting to wonder if these are guys that just watched the TV show on VH1 thinking that is what it was all about (lines). A huge percentage of the PUA world was rather upset about the show, but also realized, its not showing much. There are Gigantic gaps that they have never showed. If you ever saw the show, pay attention to the guys that actually changed, and made it to the end or near it. Those were not lines that changed, it was the person who changed. So once again I say, your smelling guys who actually comfortable with themselves? How is that a bad thing? If you don't like their personality what are you worried about anyways? Its hard to feel attraction to someone who has a crappy personality....am I just eye candy to you guys? Nothing more?


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

I think what I'm really hearing is you guys gave some guy value or trust, who didn't give you value or respect back in return and it can hurt for sure. You thought they were legitimately pumping your emotional state for reasons beyond sexual interest? I wasn't there so I'm just guessing. I'm personally not the type of guy who will tell you I love you, until I truly feel something. I actually avoid the word like the plague because I wouldn't want to devalue you it. When I say I want it to be known it is something I really mean. 

There are so many possible scenarios I really don't know. I think most people know there are other people who have no qualms about taking something from someone who is willing to give it away without a promise, payment, or "fair" deal. Often a phrase similar to, "I was just having fun", "I didn't know it was anything more than that" type thing is attached to it. I think there are plenty of men and women who are unwilling to give their heart almost no matter what the level of commitment, and who see the world as "fair game". I guess I'm saying, know your true value and don't ever expect others to care what it is if you don't have real trust with them yet. Hopefully you have learned to "smell out" the ones who do not care about your value, not the ones who are, shy, uncomfortable, and doing everything in their power to reach for the stars and get the precious gem they think you are.

Yes I am arguing so passionately about this because for me I'm talking about something that has given so much to me and others I know in a very positive way. I would feel just as strongly about Martial Artrs if you blamed it for you being hurt by some psycho who broke your wrist or killed someone you loved with it. It wasn't the art or the skill that did it. It was the person who did it.


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## Melian (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> No need to apologize to me for being hit on by a tool. Like I said there are guys who have "gone to the dark side" and can't think beyond the fact that certain psychological ploy's do work to create attraction even if its being faked. I don't think its anything knew that guys can and will say anything sometimes to "get what they want". I've met girls who do the same. Some of the PUA knowledge is like having a magic bullet and can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
> 
> In the martial arts world I have taught people how to kill, mangle and maim. I was aware that some would use it with bad intentions. I usually felt ok about it because those same individuals were not willing to stick to it long enough for it to really become an ingrained part of who they were and to develop serious skill (and eventually forget it). A lot of the guys you saw showing off "Skillz" were orange belts or guys who had only gone to class for like 1-4 months. I see the PUA stuff in a similar light. Its not part of them, its not who they are, I'm fairly certain it can be detectable. Most women have habits and patterns of constantly running a "consistency test"; "Is everything he is doing and saying consistent with the story I'm getting". This is where guy can and will fail if they are just using lines or sound bites they got from a buddy and haven't taken it in to a deeper level of actually developing the personality where these sound bites really came from.
> 
> ...



Now now...if you are using these tricks with good intentions (and given that you and CL seem to have an excellent relationship, it seems that your intent is not malicious at all), you have to realize that you are in the minority. Maybe it's just the fact that you are labelling it PUA, which comes with sleazy undertones...semantics matter, sometimes. 

Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that a lot of women have been hurt pretty badly by guys using these same moves, so if a guy is considering maybe testing some out OR just being himself and interacting without an agenda, he should go for the latter. Personally, I always run those consistency tests that you described, and it's pathetic how many people fail right off the bat 

And, while I agree that certain social techniques can really...how should I say......"optimize output".....I personally prefer to live more spontaneously versus following some kind of conversation structure. Que sera, sera, and all that


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## Melian (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> I think what I'm really hearing is you guys gave some guy value or trust, who didn't give you value or respect back in return and it can hurt for sure. You thought they were legitimately pumping your emotional state for reasons beyond sexual interest? I wasn't there so I'm just guessing. I'm personally not the type of guy who will tell you I love you, until I truly feel something. I actually avoid the word like the plague because I wouldn't want to devalue you it. When I say I want it to be known it is something I really mean.
> 
> There are so many possible scenarios I really don't know. I think most people know there are other people who have no qualms about taking something from someone who is willing to give it away without a promise, payment, or "fair" deal. Often a phrase similar to, "I was just having fun", "I didn't know it was anything more than that" type thing is attached to it. I think there are plenty of men and women who are unwilling to give their heart almost no matter what the level of commitment, and who see the world as "fair game". I guess I'm saying, know your true value and don't ever expect others to care what it is if you don't have real trust with them yet. Hopefully you have learned to "smell out" the ones who do not care about your value, not the ones who are, shy, uncomfortable, and doing everything in their power to reach for the stars and get the precious gem they think you are.
> 
> Yes I am arguing so passionately about this because for me I'm talking about something that has given so much to me and others I know in a very positive way. I would feel just as strongly about Martial Artrs if you blamed it for you being hurt by some psycho who broke your wrist or killed someone you loved with it. It wasn't the art or the skill that did it. It was the person who did it.



I understand that it is a sensitive topic for you. No worries - my comments should not be taken as personal attacks :happy:

Also, RE: the PUA guy who pissed me off, he wasn't someone I loved or trusted or anything.....just a guy who would not have gotten anywhere if he wasn't so smooth, so convincing. He manipulated the conversation to inflate his image and lied when there really seemed to be no reason to do so. Anyway, I made a mistake when I did things with him, I felt dirty afterwards, but that's the extent of things there. It was a long time ago (ten years or so, now).


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Melian said:


> I understand that it is a sensitive topic for you. No worries - my comments should not be taken as personal attacks :happy:
> 
> Also, RE: the PUA guy who pissed me off, he wasn't someone I loved or trusted or anything.....just a guy who would not have gotten anywhere if he wasn't so smooth, so convincing. He manipulated the conversation to inflate his image and lied when there really seemed to be no reason to do so. Anyway, I made a mistake when I did things with him, I felt dirty afterwards, but that's the extent of things there. It was a long time ago (ten years or so, now).



So your upset that you didn't trust your own gut feelings? You know whats funny is I get female friends that ask how PUA can work for them. My response is trust your instincts and feelings thats what thousands of years of development were for.

I don't think you understand me yet, it should be a personal attack. Your attacking a group of theories and methodology's when the person to blame is the person you were talking about. Whatever his "game" was it was F'd up. I'm not calling PUA some noble ideology, but even the most noble of ways of being can be perverted by a single man....an image of a Catholic Priest molesting children comes up.

Not to mention 10 years ago PUA was not what it is today. Around that time it was still more about NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming) going under the name of "Speed Seduction". I'd be really surprised if the guy was doing that (its not even about lying or using lines, its psychological trigger wiring, still used by very skilled PUA's). PUA didn't become widely known until 2005 when Neil Strauss wrote his book "The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists ". So its highly doubtful the guy was even involved in "PUA" since I'm fairly sure it didn't exist, other than a few guys chatting about stuff that worked for them in the past...and well, thats nothing new.


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## stldpn (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> an image of a Catholic Priest molesting children comes up.



PUA is not the way of the samurai... it's not even a jedi... so please... leave the priesthood out of it.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

stldpn said:


> PUA is not the way of the samurai... it's not even a jedi... so please... leave the priesthood out of it.



Huh? I said: "*I'm not calling PUA some noble ideology, but even the most noble of ways of being can be perverted by a single man....an image of a Catholic Priest molesting children comes up.*"

I think you misunderstood me or something. Most Samurai were only noble in title or the people probably wouldn't have rioted so often and tried to get rid of them until they finally succeeded.


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## Jes (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> I don't think you understand me yet, it should be a personal attack. Your attacking a group of theories and methodology's .




the methodology's what? success? you dropped out a word here.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Jes said:


> the methodology's what? success? you dropped out a word here.



No thats right. I just spelled methodologies wrong. I apologize if this caused some kind of confusion.


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## Melian (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> So your upset that you didn't trust your own gut feelings? You know whats funny is I get female friends that ask how PUA can work for them. My response is trust your instincts and feelings thats what thousands of years of development were for.
> 
> I don't think you understand me yet, it should be a personal attack. Your attacking a group of theories and methodology's when the person to blame is the person you were talking about. Whatever his "game" was it was F'd up. I'm not calling PUA some noble ideology, but even the most noble of ways of being can be perverted by a single man....an image of a Catholic Priest molesting children comes up.
> 
> Not to mention 10 years ago PUA was not what it is today. Around that time it was still more about NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming) going under the name of "Speed Seduction". I'd be really surprised if the guy was doing that (its not even about lying or using lines, its psychological trigger wiring, still used by very skilled PUA's). PUA didn't become widely known until 2005 when Neil Strauss wrote his book "The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists ". So its highly doubtful the guy was even involved in "PUA" since I'm fairly sure it didn't exist, other than a few guys chatting about stuff that worked for them in the past...and well, thats nothing new.



I PM'd you and this is really the last I want to say about it. I will repeat one line that deserves repeating on a public forum: If someone fucked a horse 1000 years ago, no one would have called him a 'zoophile,' but that's what he was.


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## chicken legs (Mar 8, 2010)

I grew up in a family of players so PUA has no effect on me. Escapist had to jump through a couple of hoops-o-fire on a tricycle for me to take him seriously. LOL..I was like you want to be my friend and lover...wait that means boyfriend and girlfriend..

True players are what Escapist refers to as Naturals. My brothers (and sisters) have the luck of the draw with genetics. They have the looks, they are well endowed, (a few are)financially successfull, and charming as hell. So unless you can get past the physical, your going to get screwed by them. The ones who haven't married multiple times are contantly having me meet their latest love. Their drive was/is simply sexual gratification (whether they knew it or not). The only difference between me and them is I have a very low sex drive (mom had me at 42 so I think that has something to do with it.) I have always been more concerned with my health (weak composition), my spirituality, and the secrets of the universe. It wasn't until my brothers and sisters started hitting 40 that I was able to have a normal conversation with them (7 to 18 year difference in ages btw me and my other siblings.) So having a family like that mixed with a low sex drive created the odd ball that is me.

However, I am learning some of the principles of PUA to use in my professional life...but that is for another thread.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

Ok we are getting into a very old argument here because your talking about players.



> Player is a mainstream term, and although the term is sometimes used interchangeably with “PUA”, some members of the community argue that there is a difference between players and PUAs. ...the term “player” usually has a negative connotation of dishonesty and disrespect for women, i.e. someone who “plays” with the feelings of women to get them into bed.
> 
> Although some PUAs share the same mindset, many PUAs believe in honesty, rather than deception, and are up front about their multiple relationships with women. Many PUAs see the path of seduction as a journey of self improvement, and use pickup skills to express their best selves to women in a genuine and authentic way, in order to gain their attraction and companionship. The motto of many PUAs is “leave her better than you found her”, and they strive to give value to women, rather than simply taking it.
> 
> In this way, many PUAs try to distinguish themselves from players, although not all PUAs make such distinctions. There are “good” PUAs and “good” players, just as there are bad PUAs and bad players. Hugh Hefner, for example, is a well known player to has keep positive relationships with most of his ex-girlfriends.



I take this pretty seriously. I do tend to have very good relationships with my ex's. I still get (and give) birthday/Christmas peasants and gifts even. I feel the point of honesty and genuine relationships is a very defining line.


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## escapist (Mar 8, 2010)

chicken legs said:


> I grew up in a family of players so PUA has no effect on me. Escapist had to jump through a couple of hoops-o-fire on a tricycle for me to take him seriously. LOL..I was like you want to be my friend and lover...wait that means boyfriend and girlfriend..



Yeah that would be the part of PUA where it was totally for me. There were days when I had to force myself to just be cool and remember the rules. In the PUA world there is a strong rule that you don't chase. A guys job just is to create attraction, its up to her what she wants to do with it. Sure it sucks tossing your heart out their and seeing if the person you like will bite. It sure makes it all worth it when they do and things work out well :wubu:


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## rabbitislove (Mar 8, 2010)

Dont ask the woman who just committed the carnal sin of friends with benefits, and while crying over it hit on a married man because she thought he was coming into her.

Yeah, I think strippers like me too.


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## rabbitislove (Mar 8, 2010)

escapist said:


> Yeah that would be the part of PUA where it was totally for me. There were days when I had to force myself to just be cool and remember the rules. In the PUA world there is a strong rule that you don't chase. A guys job just is to create attraction, its up to her what she wants to do with it. Sure it sucks tossing your heart out their and seeing if the person you like will bite. It sure makes it all worth it when they do and things work out well :wubu:



Escapist on a tricycle is a hilarious mental image. FAT GUY ON A LITTLE BIKE!!!!!


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## escapist (Mar 9, 2010)

rabbitislove said:


> Escapist on a tricycle is a hilarious mental image. FAT GUY ON A LITTLE BIKE!!!!!



OMFG, I was just singing the Fat Guy in a Little Coat song!

That would be one well built Tricycle...I don't even dare get on a Bike or something like that. I'm terrified it will smash under me and strike vital body parts down there.


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## Zowie (Mar 9, 2010)

Even better, a unicycle. You'd look like one of those circus bears. 
o_o
That would be thoroughly entertaining. I'll lend you mine.


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## escapist (Mar 10, 2010)

bionic_eggplant said:


> Even better, a unicycle. You'd look like one of those circus bears.
> o_o
> That would be thoroughly entertaining. I'll lend you mine.



Holy crap, CL says I look and act like a bear all the time.


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## bmann0413 (Mar 10, 2010)

Hmm, I think that you have to show you're interested, by saying it's a date. Otherwise, you're just stuck in the friend zone. Believe me, I know.

Of course that doesn't really help, because I've actually asked some girls out on a date, and I STILL get stuck in the friend zone. Or they just straight up turn me down.

Y'know what? First make sure that the girl COULD be interested in you. See if she acts differently to you than what she does with her other friends.


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## chicken legs (Mar 10, 2010)

bmann0413 said:


> . See if she acts differently to you than what she does with her other friends.



I like to see how people act around others too as a guage to see all the differents sides of a person and to see which side they present to me.


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## escapist (Mar 10, 2010)

Totally agree with all the above post. People watching is Soooo important. If you can't read nonverbal cues your screwed in life.






7% Spoken words
38% Tone of voice
55% Non Verbal

Crazy huh? That is why I say experience, experience, experience, get out the door and just interact. Learn to see what the cues are. Gaining experience is far more important than your failure or success rate right now, because your experience is directly tied into your success in social communication and getting where you want to be with people. Notice even when I gave advice to say and do things it was 100% contingent reading someone.


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