# Suicide is painless?



## Renaissance Woman (Jan 6, 2008)

How bad is suicide, really? That's what I want to find out. If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed? Is there any part of you that is at least happy they're not suffering anymore? If you've had a failed attempt yourself, how do you feel about it now? 

I have no idea if this thread will work. I realize it's a subject that probably not a lot of people will want to talk about. Also, I'm NOT looking for a bunch of "don't do it" posts and links to the samaritans. I'm looking for how the process affects everyone. Thanks.


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## Friday (Jan 6, 2008)

I've had both people who used the threat of suicide to get what they want and people who have tried (some failed and some succeeded) in my life.

*Intellectually* I realize that a person who wants to commit suicide is often in so much emotional pain that they see it as the only way to make the pain stop. The concept of what their actions will do to the people they love and care about isn't something they can grasp when in that dark place.

*Emotionally* I think that suicide is a horribly selfish and cowardly thing to do. If I could reach the people I have known that have chosen this I would slap the crap out of them. And it sends out ripples. Children who have a parent that commits suicide are 11 times more likely to commit suicide themselves. Seen that one in action too.

I won't claim that I've never considered suicide. One night, after my baby sister drowned I almost made a very stupid mistake. But fate or her spirit intervened and by morning I knew what a horrible, horrible mistake it would have been. The second blow would have killed my Mother, and perhaps my other sister. People need to THINK of someone besides themselves.


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## Emma (Jan 6, 2008)

I've known two people that have done it. One was 17 at the time, she wasn't know for being depressed. She was always having fun and doing stuff. She got drunk with her two cousins who she was living with and went to a club. They had an argument, she went home and they didn't go home that night and she was found dead the next day. 

The second person I knew was someone who I used to live with in care. I hadn't seen him for years but he was my friends daughters dad. He hung himself in prison after an argument with his girlfriend. 

I've attempted too but I'm glad I never succeeded. I'm happy now and everytime I feel suicidal again I just remember that in a few days/weeks I'll be happy again.


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## k1009 (Jan 6, 2008)

I knew four people who committed suicide. Every time it's the same. At first I'm upset and then I'm angry and then it hits me that that person is gone from my life forever. That's when I really start to feel bad. For the first few days at least it's mostly shock and sadness but not the sort of "you're gone and I'll never see you again" sadness. Hard to explain, more like numbed grief. 

I used to think I was selfish for feeling so angry at my friends for their deaths but I read somewhere that it was fairly common to take suicide as a personal affront, that the person is somehow stiffing you even though you've done everything you can to be a good friend, or in some cases help them through their bad times. 

It's not like regular death. When I think of a girl I was good friends with in 11th grade, who drowned during the summer holidays, I smile because I'm not so much remembering the circumstances around her death as much as the good times we had when she was alive. When I think of the friends who've killed themselves a little part of me is still incredibly angry with them for doing it, even though that part fades a little as time goes on. I still do feel guilty about that and feeling guilty about my anger makes me even angrier, if that makes sense.

That's my take on suicide.


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## ChubbyBubbles (Jan 6, 2008)

I tried to commit suicide when I was 15. i slit my wrists. I had alot of family problems...abuse, both sexual and mental. My mom had also been diagnosed with terminal cancer and only had a few months to live. I had suffered with depression most of my childhood into my teen years. A friend found me and notified authorities. I am so glad he did...it's been 21 years and I am happily married with a beautiful son. I look back on that day and see how close I came to losing out on a wonderful life. My mother passed away shortly after my attempt and as hard as it was to deal with, I made it. I know now that problems are temporary...but suicide...well, there's no going back once it's done.

My best friend from high school commited suicide a few years after graduation. She left behind a daughter which really hit me hard. It's been 9 years and I still think about her. I know she had a screwed up life, but I wish she were still here. Things would have gotten better. They always do.

I also had an online friend commit suicide. He was a DIMS poster and we chatted almost every day. He was a great guy and he died a few weeks after my son was born. I had a hard time dealing with it because we were buddies. I had no idea he was even suicidal. I miss him.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jan 6, 2008)

This thread is a bit too personal (when you are being stalked) to give the answers which you seek. BUT, I can tell you....

As an adult, my suicidal depression is different. As a child/teenager, I was angry and depressed when I was suicidal, and I didn't care who it effected because as most children, the world revolved around me and my wants. Once, when I was 14, right after an attempt a guy I REALLY liked told me how selfish I was...he was really upset by it. At the time, I didn't understand what he meant, I had no idea suicide could be selfish since it was only about yourself.

Now as an adult, when I am depressed enough to contemplate suicide, I remember his words and then I think of everyones life I touch on a daily basis and my family and I imagine with great detail of how different life would be for them and how sad they would be. That usually makes me cry harder cos I feel stuck in a life I can't bare to live. It's hard to be stuck in a life you feel isn't worth living and knowing you can't do anything about it because it would destroy more lives than it would fix.

Well, I've probably said too much already, but there it is....the truth. Suicide hurts more than one life every single time.

As for friends, I knew a guy in High School who killed himself, I sat next to him in health class...one day he was there, the next he wasn't. It was weird, I still remember him....he made fun of me a lot, so I remember his words, but it is still a shame he took his life.

That was in California, my freshman year. My Junior year, my parents moved me to Idaho...Salmon, Idaho. Salmon, Idaho has the highest rates of suicide in all of Idaho. I have known a few people who have killed themselves.

I had my best friend call me from her car suicidal. I got her location and I called the cops on her. In California, a 5150 is a charge of being a threat to yourself or someone else. At 19 and not able to drive myself, I called 911 and reported her. She was taken to the hospital. She hated me for a couple of weeks, but she got over it. She is still a pretty messed up person as an adult.

There we have it...my 51 cents.


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## Rowan (Jan 6, 2008)

Thankfully I've never known anyone who has committed suicide, and Ive only actually attempted it once when i was 16. I took 60 ibuprofen and being the bone head I am, I called poison control..not for help but to have an idea what was going to happen to me as I died. Well they called the house back and my younger brother answered the phone and told my mom when she got home. My mom was of course mad and being a nurse guess she knew it wouldnt kill me (didnt really have any adverse effects somehow..maybe cuz ive always been fat) and being as mad as she was told me that the next time I did it to do it right. She has since apologized about it, but I can definitely say that the thought is never that far from my mind since I usually have a lot going on in my life that is constantly stressing me out and have situations I face that depress me quite a bit. One of the few things that keeps me from attempting in all seriousness again, is the fact that I know it would emotionally devistate my family, and the fact that I do believe that if you commit suicide you go to hell (i was raised in the church, one of those ingrained beliefs from it i guess). 

Of course I would hate for anyone to hurt themselves and those around them like that, but I am certainly not one to talk since I am so messed up in the head myself...

Just my two cents


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## Suze (Jan 6, 2008)

I think suicide is a very selfish act. 
The possibility is big that you leave a bunch of heartbroken people behind. It's an easy solution.
Not that I don't sympathize or anything. I can definitely understand why some people do it.

Whats worse I think, is when people try to do it a numerous of times and don't succeed. This way you will _really_ mess with peoples feelings and anxiousness.

If you really want to die you will make it happen.


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## goofy girl (Jan 6, 2008)

All I'm gonna say is this:

The title of the thread is "suicide is painless". I cannot disagree with that more. Not only is it painful for the person who is doing it (maybe not always painful physically, depending on the method-but the mental and psychological parts of every aspect would be incredibly painful to me), but more so for the people left there that cared deeply for the person they have lost, and that pain would never go away for them.

I could tell lots of stories of friends or family members that have lost loved ones to suicide, but I'm going to leave it at that. 

So, suicide is painless?? Not by any means.


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## Ash (Jan 6, 2008)

goofy girl said:


> So, suicide is painless?? Not by any means.



Agreed. 
....


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## moore2me (Jan 6, 2008)

Friday said:


> I've had both people who used the threat of suicide to get what they want and people who have tried (some failed and some succeeded) in my life.
> 
> *Intellectually* I realize that a person who wants to commit suicide is often in so much emotional pain that they see it as the only way to make the pain stop. The concept of what their actions will do to the people they love and care about isn't something they can grasp when in that dark place.
> 
> ...





BigBellySSBBW said:


> Suicide hurts more than one life every single time.




Since the original question was what we think about suicide, I must agree with BigBelly & Friday. It's the family of those that kill themselves that suffer the most. One of my close family members has killed herself and one has tried to. The one that tried to managed to drag me & my husband into her "crazy day soap opera" and we are still mad about it. (We don't like being manipulated in that way.)

What happened was, she invited us to go to the movies with her at a certain time. We showed up at her house and found her lying across her bed where she had swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills. She was almost unconscious, my husband & I had to drag her sorry ass to our car, and hurry her to the nearest ER to get her stomach pumped. She knew we were coming over; she swallowed those pills deliberately, but figured we would find her. What if she was dead? Man, that would have ruined my whole year! This chick was a mother of a teenager too, what if her child would have found her body?

Another relative of mine killed herself in her car by carbon monoxide poisoning right before one Christmas. She got upset with her mom who told her she couldn't bring her dogs home during the Christmas holidays. So, the woman got in her car with her dogs and gassed all of them. Now everyone's holiday is ruined - for years! Plus, the innocent doggies died too. Her mom was devastated.

And some the people who have the hardest time with a suicide are complete strangers. My husband (who has since retired) used to work on the river at night. At least a couple of times a year, someone upriver would commit suicide by jumping off a bridge and their body would eventually come up and work its way downstream to where my husband's workplace was. Trying to do your job in the middle of the night and then accidentally running across a floater was like something out of a horror movie, the stuff of nightmares. 
Most of the bodies could not be identified as to what sex they were or what race they were by the time they they had been in the water for weeks. And, Im sure other public servants have had common experiences (police, firemen, paramedics, etc.)  its a nasty thing to make these people have to deal with, they suffer from such sights and smells. No, suicide is not painless to them.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 6, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> How bad is suicide, really? That's what I want to find out. If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed? Is there any part of you that is at least happy they're not suffering anymore? If you've had a failed attempt yourself, how do you feel about it now?
> 
> I have no idea if this thread will work. I realize it's a subject that probably not a lot of people will want to talk about. Also, I'm NOT looking for a bunch of "don't do it" posts and links to the samaritans. I'm looking for how the process affects everyone. Thanks.



The nature of this post is amazingly sad. I am not really sure how to react...whether or not this was your intent, it reads as if you're contemplating killing yourself. So you let people know this and then remind us to not say to not do it and to not try to get your to stop.

I'm not sure what you're hoping for. Are you going to think more seriously about killing yourself if somebody tells you they wound up being OK with a fried or family member having done it? Do you honestly think that anyone is going to read a post about somebody contemplating killing herself and respond with "Oh, my sister killed herself and I was fine with it. She was pretty depressed and now she's out of pain so I'm happy."

I don't know you and I don't know your life, so I can't make any suggestions or know how it will affect anyone that loves you. I don't know what kind of pain you're in, and I don't know if there are parts of your life that are broken and can't be fixed. This may be the case.

All I can say is that i hope you have people in your life who love you and want the best for you.


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## Keb (Jan 6, 2008)

I think it's easy for a lot of people to come up with the idea that other people would be better off without them. I've felt that way myself. So suicide starts looking like the best thing to do...and it's a stupid way to think. Unless you're singlehandedly responsible for, say, genocide, the world probably -isn't- better off without you, and you almost certainly have people who love you and will have a very hard time forgiving you for taking yourself away from them and giving up a future they've invested themselves in by caring about you.


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## CleverBomb (Jan 6, 2008)

goofy girl said:


> All I'm gonna say is this:
> 
> The title of the thread is "suicide is painless". I cannot disagree with that more. Not only is it painful for the person who is doing it (maybe not always painful physically, depending on the method-but the mental and psychological parts of every aspect would be incredibly painful to me), but more so for the people left there that cared deeply for the person they have lost, and that pain would never go away for them.
> 
> ...





Ashley said:


> Agreed.
> ....



Great song. Makes for a lousy thread title though.

There's very little in life that's worth killing oneself over.

Life is long.
There's all the time in the world to make things better.
Even starting over from scratch, we're talking in terms of _decades_! 
What could you do f you had another 30-80 years to play with? They're yours already, free for the taking.
And that's true even if one _isn't_ considering suicide.

-Rusty
("Man, there's future _everywhere!_" -R. Munroe, _xkcd_)


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## goofy girl (Jan 6, 2008)

CleverBomb said:


> Great song. Makes for a lousy thread title though.
> 
> There's very little in life that's worth killing oneself over.
> 
> ...



absolutely


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

Thankfully no one I know has succeeded. 

At least two people in my life have tried in a most sincere way, both ended up with them in hospital care, one with physical scars to carry around. Those scars hurt me to see, the pain they represent, the despair, where the mind must have been at that time. A scary, dark, horrible place that I hope they never return. 

Both people tried this before I met them, and one has had a couple of "flare ups" since meeting. 

It's very hard for me to put into words the loss in my life if either of them were not here. I know I'd not know the difference, but I can imagine because of the way they've enhanced my days, my laughter, my shared experiences. 

My anger at the condition which brings these thoughts on is endless and almost violent. I hate that the beautiful mind and soul that I know and love can be overcome with such bottomless feelings, left with no light, no hope, no path to find their way to a safer place. And while nothing in recent past has actually led to another attempt (thank God, honestly), the knowledge that the path has been tread is so painful to me. I worry all the time but know I can't control a thing. I can be there, I can love, I can give the counter arguments, but it's not up to me whether they're heard or accepted. It's not up to me what it ultimately done. And that pisses me off. 

If there had been a progression to actually acting, and it had worked, I would not go to their funeral. All the love I had would turn to hate. That eats me up inside. Options exist for addressing despair and suffering, and for those who've chosen to check out without trying EVERYTHING to save themselves, I have contempt. These people that I love more than life most days, I would be strangled by my anger toward them. Their selfish act, which pushed them to an escape, left me in a prison forever. I don't know how I'd find a place for that, a way to be "ok" with their choice. 

I believe we control our own lives, but I believe we have responsibility - it comes with the package. People love us, cherish us, turn to us, rely on us, in ways that we never fully understand. We're part of a bigger thing here, and to take yourself out of the running... it's horrific and leaves nothing but destruction in its wake. 

That's how I feel.


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## Renaissance Woman (Jan 6, 2008)

goofy girl said:


> So, suicide is painless?? Not by any means.


I was thinking of the song title. I meant to put a question mark at the end for the thread title, but forgot. Oops. :doh:



LoveBHMS said:


> I'm not sure what you're hoping for. Are you going to think more seriously about killing yourself if somebody tells you they wound up being OK with a fried or family member having done it? Do you honestly think that anyone is going to read a post about somebody contemplating killing herself and respond with "Oh, my sister killed herself and I was fine with it. She was pretty depressed and now she's out of pain so I'm happy."


Actually, the replies so far have been exactly what I was looking for, so I'm pleasantly surprised. One of the reasons I started this thread is because there still seems to be a "blame the victim" mentality when it comes to mental illness, especially depression. I was hoping I was wrong, but the responses so far have confirmed it. 

I hoped that perhaps there might have been one or two replies along the lines of "my sister tried to kill herself, but we were able to get her help because of it, and now she's not suffering and back to her happy self." Instead, they're mostly of the "whoever tries to kill themselves is a selfish prick" variety. But that's okay; it answers my question and is why I started the thread.


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## Sandie S-R (Jan 6, 2008)

Some friends of mine (from Colorado days) had a teenage son that committed suicide. He had been leaving a few clues to his friends, but not to his parents. He was a sweet soul, and a good son. His parents did not see it coming, and they were completely devistated. Eventually they turned their grief into working to end teenage suicide, with a hotline and other things that eventually reached national recognition. Fortunately they have done a lot of good. 

But their hearts and lives will never be the same. 

Was is painless? Not even close. It was painfull for everyone, and still is. The pain never goes away.


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## Flyin Lilac (Jan 6, 2008)

I've known several people who either tried it or did it. I'll give you my 2 cents on just a few.

1. My dad killed himself 10 days before my college graduation. He had been suffering from severe anxiety/depression, but apparently in secret, because being away from home at school, I had no idea. It happened in 1988, but you never forget it. You learn to live with it, but it never goes away. For about two weeks I was completely "not there" (I think it's shock, in medical terms), then I wavered among anger, guilt (I was the last person to see him that day), fear, and just plain numbness. 

Do I miss him? Of course. We weren't exactly close, but he never, ever was a "bad father." He helped raise me; taught me all sorts of life lessons; paid my way through college in cash; kept me fed, sheltered, insured, clothed, etc.; took me fishing and camping; and kept our home and family safe. When he was around I knew everything was cool and nothing could hurt me.

That said, I'd be remiss if I didn't include the other side of the coin. Because of his death, my life took completely different paths than it would have had he stayed alive. I would have continued living for his expectations instead of striking out on my own to make mistakes and have life-altering adventures. Maybe I would have ended up in a better life, but the truth is I basically like where and what I am now. Naturally I feel guilty because this sounds like _My life is good because he killed himself. _Rationally I know this is foolish, but you can't help thinking it. The fact is, my mom, my sister and I were forced to toughen up and fend for ourselves after he died, and in a weird way that was a gift.

In the first 10 years after his death, he showed up a lot in my dreams. Sometimes I'd dream that he hadn't died but actually had just left to have a new life with a new family, that he didn't want us anymore. Other times I'd dream that we all knew he was sick and that we kept him at home and were on constant suicide watch. But I've also had a few really nice "checking in" dreams. We meet up somehow and he tells me that he's very happy in the "heaven" type place that he's in, and that I shouldn't worry anymore. He also tells me that I'm doing fine and that he's proud of me. As sad as these dreams are, the check-ins are very comforting. They don't happen as often these days, but maybe that's his way of saying "You're good so I don't need to come around as much to remind you." Who knows.

2. My No. 2 brother has tried a couple times to off himself, and honestly my feelings about it are more of the eye-rolling type. He's the rebellious druggie wanderer who thinks the world owes him something, and he's always trying to circumvent responsiblity. After my dad died he took a lot of advantage of my mom and sister, financially and emotionally. His suicide attempts were of the "I'll fix you" guilt-drama variety, and generally borne of being strung out on meth. He has since cleaned up his act considerably, but there's still that aura of "I shouldn't have to work for anything" even now, and I resent it. God strike me dead for saying this, (but we're about honesty, right?) but I've had fleeting thoughts of "He should've just done it so we could all exhale." I don't think it nowadays, since he has straightened himself out to a large degree, but I'll admit that if he had gone through with it back then, I'd have felt sad only for my mom, not for him.

3. My best friend since kindergarten jumped 200 feet to her death from a bridge in our hometown in the early '90s. I heard about it during a news meeting at work, when someone mentioned the story. I felt initial shock, then sadness, but I wasn't the least bit surprised. She had tried suicide eight ways from Sunday since we were in high school, and after her first attempt our sophomore year, she just became nutty. We lost touch after high school and she fell into hard drugs, bouncing from halfway house to halfway house. Her life was pain from day one, and I feel like this was her only way to escape it. In that respect, the effect of suicide on her must be relief, but the family and friends she left behind bear the weight of sadness and guilt ... maybe some relief too, for not having to constantly be wondering and worrying about her.

4. And then there's me. I've _thought _about suicide tons of times but have _never _gotten anywhere near taking tangible steps toward it. The singular reason I don't is my mother. I _never _want her to have to suffer the way she did when my dad killed himself. I won't be the one to do that to her again. Furthermore, my progress with self-acceptance and the help of medication are making me much more able to cope with my low episodes, which are becoming fewer and further between these days.

Anyhow that's my very long-winded take on the subject. Hope it offers whatever perspective you're needing.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> I was thinking of the song title. I meant to put a question mark at the end for the thread title, but forgot. Oops. :doh:



/mod - did that for you


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## SparklingBBW (Jan 6, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> I was thinking of the song title. I meant to put a question mark at the end for the thread title, but forgot. Oops. :doh:
> 
> 
> Actually, the replies so far have been exactly what I was looking for, so I'm pleasantly surprised. One of the reasons I started this thread is because there still seems to be a "blame the victim" mentality when it comes to mental illness, especially depression. I was hoping I was wrong, but the responses so far have confirmed it.
> ...




First of all, when you have certain expectations or a hidden agenda behind a post or a question, I believe that you'll always be disappointed with the answers you get, thus proving one's hidden agenda. Just like snooping or eavesdropping...more than likely, one will never hear anything good about themselves or find anything that isn't incriminating. 

Secondly and more importantly, I believe what you are labeling as a "blame the victim" mentality should actually be labeled as "blame the disease". As someone who has battled depression, my therapist has helped me to see that when I'm in the pits or when my disease has me in it's strongest grips, my mind is not working properly. My thoughts and feelings are being influenced by the disease. I have come to call it my "depressive logic". To my way of thinking at the time, it all makes perfect sense...nothing will ever get better...my pain will never go away...nobody will ever love me. But my thought patterns are not governed by true and rational logic, they are governed by my disease, and therefore any decision I make, i.e. about the pros of killing myself are based on faultly logic and hypotheses. 

This diseased logic is why it is SO imperative to talk to someone else when one is considering suicide. Just like a person in a diabetic coma who needs someone else to inject the insulin...a person with a mental illness needs a helping hand when things get this dire because they just don't always have the ability to help themselves. And it isn't their fault, it's the fault of the mental disease.


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## Renaissance Woman (Jan 6, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> /mod - did that for you


I noticed. Thanks.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 6, 2008)

Until I began reading this thread, I had not realized how many people I knew who had committed/attempted suicide. Most of the posts here deal with the attempts of relatively young people, and I have seen some of those. But there are also older people who kill themselves, and -- in my experience, at least -- the young commit suicide in passion, and the old after calculation.
Both my grandfather and my uncle chose to end their lives. Both were elderly, had lived full lives and raised large families. Their children were grown and self-supporting, and there was no one financially dependent on either of them. Both men were terminally ill with degenerative diseases that would eventually leave them helpless and in pain before killing them; and both decided to cut the process short. Certain members of my family have made the usual accusations of cowardice and selfishness, but I see their decision as a rational one, and one that I might make myself in similar circumstances. It is certainly true that their families suffered from their deaths, but they would also have suffered from watching them die by inches. I do not feel that they dishonored themselves. On the other hand, there are few people whose circumstances I know fully enough to feel comfortable in judging them.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

Genarose54 said:


> First of all, when you have certain expectations or a hidden agenda behind a post or a question, I believe that you'll always be disappointed with the answers you get, thus proving one's hidden agenda. Just like snooping or eavesdropping...more than likely, one will never hear anything good about themselves or find anything that isn't incriminating.
> 
> Secondly and more importantly, I believe what you are labeling as a "blame the victim" mentality should actually be labeled as "blame the disease". As someone who has battled depression, my therapist has helped me to see that when I'm in the pits or when my disease has me in it's strongest grips, my mind is not working properly. My thoughts and feelings are being influenced by the disease. I have come to call it my "depressive logic". To my way of thinking at the time, it all makes perfect sense...nothing will ever get better...my pain will never go away...nobody will ever love me. But my thought patterns are not governed by true and rational logic, they are governed by my disease, and therefore any decision I make, i.e. about the pros of killing myself are based on faultly logic and hypotheses.
> 
> This diseased logic is why it is SO imperative to talk to someone else when one is considering suicide. Just like a person in a diabetic coma who needs someone else to inject the insulin...a person with a mental illness needs a helping hand when things get this dire because they just don't always have the ability to help themselves. And it isn't their fault, it's the fault of the mental disease.



Exactly - quoted for extreme excellence. 

Hence my : 



AnnMarie said:


> My anger at the condition which brings these thoughts on is endless and almost violent.


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## chublover350 (Jan 6, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> How bad is suicide, really? That's what I want to find out. If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed? Is there any part of you that is at least happy they're not suffering anymore? If you've had a failed attempt yourself, how do you feel about it now?
> 
> I have no idea if this thread will work. I realize it's a subject that probably not a lot of people will want to talk about. Also, I'm NOT looking for a bunch of "don't do it" posts and links to the Samaritans. I'm looking for how the process affects everyone. Thanks.



u know i asked myself the same question a few months ago when a good friend of mine killed himself due to depression. None of us (friends/family) knew that it was so bad, he was taking depression medication. but he went off it because he said he felt better. When i found out that Steve killed himself, i didn't know what to think because i only thought, there wasn't any other way to make things better??? the more i found out about just how depressed steve was, the more i couldn't help think, he is no longer in pain..still to this day, i miss him so much and think about him all the time, but i cant help but think, he is finally happy and no longer in pain.


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## goofy girl (Jan 6, 2008)

I hate to think of it as "blaming" anyone or anything. But, if someone needs help-how is anyone to know unless they ask for it? I'm not trying to sound nasty, although when I read it, it does..but I can't think of any other way to say it. Some people are easy to read,so it's easier to approach them and offer them help. Others (like in Lilac's post) are very good at hiding it from people. NOBODY wants anyone to feel so sad and desperate that they feel ending their lives is the only option. And I'm sure that when people find help they need, no matter where they get it or who they get it from, they can get back to a place where they feel happy again. Like CleverBomb said, it might take 20 years to get to the point you want to be at, but if don't hang in there..you'll never get there. 

Personally, I think most people at some point in their lives think about suicide..whether it's a fleeting thought or an actual attempt. I have, and tons of people that I know have (although fortunately none have gone as far as attempting) and while everyone, everywhere has good days and bad days and tough times-yes, you can be happy and live a fulfilling life when you chose to hang in, get help and give things time.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Jan 6, 2008)

Some people don't "hide it" on purpose. I can't explain it, but for years and years every time I went to the Dr for help, as soon as I got into the chair, I felt fine. It was a defence mechanism or something, not to get help. Sometimes our own minds get in the way of getting the right help.


OK, so question....why is Dim so much about depression and suicide lately? I know it's that time of year, but holy smokes.


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## goofy girl (Jan 6, 2008)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> Some people don't "hide it" on purpose. I can't explain it, but for years and years every time I went to the Dr for help, as soon as I got into the chair, I felt fine.  It was a defence mechanism or something, not to get help. Sometimes our own minds get in the way of getting the right help.
> 
> 
> OK, so question....why is Dim so much about depression and suicide lately? I know it's that time of year, but holy smokes.



I totally get what you're saying. The same thing happened to me. I think that just knowing I was there, and someone was listening and trying to make me feel better gave me a "high" or something. My Doc probably wondered why I went, I was so damn cheery and giggly whenever I was there. However, I was still a royal bitch at home and just downright gloomy. Which is exactly why I went to the Dr in the first place. It can be a vicious circle, which is why it takes time and all that jazz.


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## Sandie S-R (Jan 6, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> I was thinking of the song title. I meant to put a question mark at the end for the thread title, but forgot. Oops. :doh:
> 
> 
> Actually, the replies so far have been exactly what I was looking for, so I'm pleasantly surprised. One of the reasons I started this thread is because there still seems to be a "blame the victim" mentality when it comes to mental illness, especially depression. I was hoping I was wrong, but the responses so far have confirmed it.
> ...



I think that is a tad unfair. No one here said anything like "selfish prick".

But you have to understand, suicide is selfish. Not selfish in a mean "I'm trying to hurt you" way. But selfish in a "I can't see anything beyond my own pain" way. 

There is no question that the person who is contemplating suicide is in need of support and possibly Psychiatric or emotional help. That is a given.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 6, 2008)

Sandie S-R said:


> I think that is a tad unfair. No one here said anything like "selfish prick".
> 
> But you have to understand, suicide is selfish. Not selfish in a mean "I'm trying to hurt you" way. But selfish in a "I can't see anything beyond my own pain" way.
> 
> There is no question that the person who is contemplating suicide is in need of support and possibly Psychiatric or emotional help. That is a given.



I think i see where Barb was going with this.

I think what she was upset about was that much of the reactions that people have to suicides/suicide attempts are framed in selfish terms. And by selfish i mean there are remarks along the lines of "I was so angry at the person" or "That person was selfish for killing himself because of how it made others feel." 

I think Barb was not seeing a lot of concern for the person who had died, or an attempt to understand why they'd done it, but more of a focus on 'how could that person do this TO ME' when it's typically NOT about other people.


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## nixonshine (Jan 6, 2008)

I might say something that may offend some, or make others think I am sick myself. I think suicide can be a relief. I had a friend who killed himself, after many "eye rolling" attempts, and besides missing him and wishing it could be different for him, I felt relieved for him. He had been in so much pain, his life was crap from day one due to some unsavory family circumstances and continued to be that way throughout due to poverty, poor choices, drugs, pain, rejection, and that empty need so many of us are familar with. For me, I had a lot of pain just remembering him and how sad the circumstances were. He walked to his mental health appointments (where he was likely overmedicated and underappreciated as a human being) six miles one way. The man did not own a coat. Although he was clearly mildly delayed and received Social Security Disability for this reason, his own father made him live in what was literally a shed outside of his home. He had to build his own bed. He was over 18, so no one at CPS was ever involved. They took his check and left him without a ride anywhere and without heat. He was gentle and kind and I had allowed him to stay here from time to time when he was in between his mother or father or whomever (until I had children and could not). When he was finally able to take his own life, he had found peace that he would never have been able to here on earth. There could be no rehabilitation for this young man, only a lesson learned by his brother who had been throwing his own life away and learned to make better choices, because he opened his eyes to all the things he DID have. 
So, RIP, my friend...I am not sad at all for him, because I know he did all that he could and that he has finally found peace.

Ok, that being said I also know a guy who is probably alot crazier than your average joe. He and his mother made a suicide pact that one would never stop the other from doing what they had to do if they needed to and would not spend the rest of their lives being sorry either. I would call that a dysfunctional relationship in most people's views. 

And the three other suicides I have known have angered me as what I am reading from AnnMarie. Its terrible that they were so overcome, and tragic that they all left behind families, in all three cases, small children. One pulled the trigger on Xmas morning in front of his children and wife, one hung himself and was found by his 13 year old daughter, and one shot himself after a rage due to meth use. 

I have also had thoughts about suicide, but not developed ones. I guess I think sometimes that death is so scary I just want to get it out of the way, but I know that's crazy talk and I know when I start feeling that way its because i am getting depressed. I dont develop plans or entertain it seriously, but ponder it, more like a melodramatic poet than a real option. 

Sorry I rambled so long, or if feeling suicide is sometimes a relief offends some.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think i see where Barb was going with this.
> 
> I think what she was upset about was that much of the reactions that people have to suicides/suicide attempts are framed in selfish terms. And by selfish i mean there are remarks along the lines of "I was so angry at the person" or "That person was selfish for killing himself because of how it made others feel."
> 
> I think Barb was not seeing a lot of concern for the person who had died, or an attempt to understand why they'd done it, but more of a focus on 'how could that person do this TO ME' when it's typically NOT about other people.



I hear the way you're reading it, and I think it's possible. I think Sandie meant that reaction was unfair given the original questions posed - at least that's how I read it and felt as well.

Examples of why I think many answered as they did, and not about the person suffering specifically: 



Renaissance Woman said:


> ***snipped***If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed?
> 
> *snipped*I'm looking for how the process affects everyone.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

kennedyrain said:


> Sorry I rambled so long, or if feeling suicide is sometimes a relief offends some.



I think that was a really interesting post, and I agree that suicide can be relief in certain circumstances. 

When someone is chronically ill or something, when the end is always worse than the present, when there just isn't a better tomorrow possible because of a spiral of some kind... I believe that you can show mercy by accepting their choice, by them finding peace in a place they never could here on earth. I don't think your understanding of that, or acceptance of that for your friend, is offensive at all. 

It's definitely a tough issue, no matter what side you're on, and I do believe strongly that it's a different scenario for every person involved, for every person who's suffering, for every family who is left behind. There's no easy answers or quick solutions. I think we're all trying to do our best by those we love and cherish, and at the end of each day you just hope you've done enough.


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## Renaissance Woman (Jan 6, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think i see where Barb was going with this.
> 
> I think what she was upset about was that much of the reactions that people have to suicides/suicide attempts are framed in selfish terms. And by selfish i mean there are remarks along the lines of "I was so angry at the person" or "That person was selfish for killing himself because of how it made others feel."
> 
> I think Barb was not seeing a lot of concern for the person who had died, or an attempt to understand why they'd done it, but more of a focus on 'how could that person do this TO ME' when it's typically NOT about other people.



Yep.



AnnMarie said:


> I hear the way you're reading it, and I think it's possible. I think Sandie meant that reaction was unfair given the original questions posed - at least that's how I read it and felt as well.



I thought maybe time might have given some perspective and allowed some insight into the depressed person's actions. Perhaps I could have worded it better, as you mentioned.


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## BLUEeyedBanshee (Jan 6, 2008)

I've known a few people who've attempted and I know someone who had a twin brother that succeeded. I didn't know this until this past summer. I walked into a situation I had no clue about.

I also have a friend who talked about her boyfriend who committed suicide a few years ago. she told me about the fight they had trying to get him help. His medications weren't helping and he had a doctor that really couldn't have cared less.

All around it's a sad thing. It's not something I understand. I can't say I've never thought about it...because I did, when I was much younger and saw no way out of the hopeless situation that was my life. However, I never could do it, or even attempt. I was afraid. I'm not sure what the fear was, but I was afraid to go through with it...it was through these thoughts that I learned that some cutting was something I did. I grew out of it, eventually.

Anyway, I don't believe it's painless. Not for the one facing the thought. Definitely not for the ones they leave behind either. I think I've rambled enough tonight.


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## Theatrmuse/Kara (Jan 6, 2008)

My grandfather committed suicide and my 85 year old father has really never recovered emotionally. It was 1938, my Dad was only 16 and my grandparents were going through a nasty divorce. My grandfather was a troubled man who loved deeply..... and was an alcoholic. Daddy still grieves for him......breaks my heart.

I also had a close theatre friend that was silently extremely depressed. She was all bubbling and smiles on the outside, was a teacher with over a hundred children that adored her in her drama school, always ready to help another and totally shocked us all one morning with suicide... leaving two small children and a husband reeling. It has been almost 15 years and I still miss her smile and voice. One thing that has stayed in my mind over the years....when she shot herself she did so at the edge of a river.....so that her body would fall in and not create a mess.....her note said she hoped she would just be taken with the current. I just wish she could have REALLY known how loved and treasured she was to all of us.

My own adult daughter is severly bipolar and has attempted suicide once.......thankfully she did NOT succeed and with meds and therapy she has been okay for many years now. However, to be honest, I still worry every single day...especially when I hear her on the phone and she sounds down. The ups and middles outweight the downs......but it will always be a worry in the back of her Dad's and my mind.

I shared these personal experiences because I want to reitterate that suicide touches so many lives......not just the suicide victim but everyone they know.
Blessings, Kara


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jan 6, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> How bad is suicide, really? That's what I want to find out. If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed? Is there any part of you that is at least happy they're not suffering anymore? If you've had a failed attempt yourself, how do you feel about it now?
> 
> I have no idea if this thread will work. I realize it's a subject that probably not a lot of people will want to talk about. Also, I'm NOT looking for a bunch of "don't do it" posts and links to the samaritans. I'm looking for how the process affects everyone. Thanks.



I've had several friends and a couple more than friends do it. It never gets any easier. I always start off the same. I obfuscate with humor and fall apart in my private moments. Living through a death of a loved one is lonely, and when you live with guilt about the relationship, it never really leaves you. 

Am I happy the people who died aren't tormented anymore? Happy's a strong word, B. I have a good suspicion we relive old pain until we face up to it, and you can't simply "leave" a universal debt, even through suicide. Even if I take the cynical view that it is an out (and I have all signs pointing to no on that one), I can at best feel relief, but most of the people I have known who have committed suicide had inner reservoirs that even they weren't aware of, and it makes me sad that they weren't willing to take another look at themselves and see what they could do to generate a life they loved.

My failed attempt was embarrassing. Now I sort of find it between depressing and amusing. I wish I'd had someone take the time to tell me what I know now. I hope you'll choose life, but all the browbeating and hand-holding and reassurance in the world can't do it. It's all on you, kid. All I can offer is my unconditional love. That's all I got.


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## ZainTheInsane (Jan 6, 2008)

I've known three people in my life who've committed suicide...

And I've thought of every one of them as a coward, because it takes more to live life than to give it up, and so I suppose for the person who commits suicide, it is painless...by comparison to living, and actually making an effort...

I felt hurt, in pain, mad, and frustrated.

As for how it effects people...it makes everyone who knew the person, ever has known the person, and everyone who might know the person in the future feel it. Think of 'Its a Wonderful Life'. Essentially if he'd died, how would it have affected the people in his life? I'm sure everyone above has reflected the emotions that I felt, the individuals family felt, etc.

It is just selfish, stupid, and demeaning. I've even beaten a friend senseless because he mentioned feeling like he wanted it as an out. He never thanked me, but the dumbass is still alive today, and I don't care if I have to do it all again someday...but I won't let someone die because they are cowardly enough to let fear get the best of them.

And that's all it is to me, fear of choice. It is easier to choose to die than to live. And it is a choice we make everyday...so what the fuck makes someone think they're so special that they can let go without thinking about all the people who love and care for them.

Bah!

I'm sorry to anyone who was offended by my post...but I HATE the idea of suicide, and I hate the excuses people use to justify it. And whatever a person believes about the afterlife...or the lack there of...I don't think anyone could argue for it being a better place if you die with that kind of mindset. And the pain and suffering you cause to those who carry on, is appalling.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 6, 2008)

I like the song too Ren.......


I had a period when I was 28 years old.........where I fell into a deep depression over my life and failing marriage to an alcoholic. I wept uncontrollably many times through out the day, thought of ways to kill myself and even told my ex what he should do with our daughter "if I died". He never picked up on what was going on even though I talked about dying everyday......
I realized partly, that I was in a dark, deep and probably even clinical depression. Not the depression that people live with for years (like I had done previously) but was in a "fight for my life" depression. Funny how attractive it was to me.........that dark hole that I was circling. It's an ending to all the sadness and hardship.........an end to everything that hurts you. It's almost like an idea of heaven........no more suffering, if that makes sense. 
I found myself not being able to look in the mirror anymore but was compelled to look into my eyes.......the rearview mirror in my car when I was alone was good for this. Everyday while driving to work, I searched for something behind my eyes....asking myself what to do and how to do it. Thoughts of driving myself into telephone poles haunted me all day while I drove for a transportation service 12 hours a day, four days a week. I had a decision to make............end it or live. 
I looked into my eyes again and asked myself out loud why I wanted to die. My first thoughts were of the anguish twisting my guts into a knot....of the harsh pain I felt all over my body when I allowed myself to feel. Then I asked myself why was I in such pain? I concluded that I hated/loathed myself so badly and how could I stand to live with me anymore? 
A part of me answered...........a part that pointed to where I came from and how I had been treated by so many in my life. That part also pointed to the nicer things in my life........the things worth living for. 
It then dawned on me that if I ended my life as I had been contemplating for so long......at the age of 28, that I was FUCKING AGREEING that I wasn't worth shit...........I was AGREEING that it has been OKAY to be treated so badly ..........that I would be agreeing that my whole life wasn't worth a damn. That seemed wrong to me....thankfully. 
It was then that I started envisioning myself in a deep black cold wet well bottom.........and started seeing myself looking for places to grab on and pull myself out. Everyday after that, I looked into my eyes in the mirror and told myself that I was worth something........and that I was STRONG. Stronger than anything that had ever happened to me, Stronger than any words or deeds and that I had everything I needed to live a good life and be happy. Seems I was right about my strength  
I went home later that night........and told my husband to get out.... that I didn't care anymore. He realized I meant it and straightened up (for a while anyway) enough to stop drinking. I enrolled myself in night classes at a local community college because my lack of higher education and previous failed attempts bothered me. I then got promoted at my job..........those 12 hour days and always helping others paid off for me finally. 
In retrospect, that black hole was frightening- how easily I could have taken that plunge and not have been able to post this today. My younger daughters would have never been born........ funny how a decision I made could have affected so many lives. In a dark depression, you're not able to see that far ahead......you only feel the push/pull of the need to end the anguish. 
I found myself that day........it was a life-altering moment that I haven't forgotten and I don't think I will ever fall that low again because I have been on a mission to love me - for all that I am worth 
**Years later, I sought counseling for my past abuse and depression- it really helped me to feel better about myself, too


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## goofy girl (Jan 6, 2008)

I have to say that I am totally for assisted suicide for people that are suffering terminal illness. I don't remember why I was saying that though. 

Ok, I agree that people tend to say that when someone commits suicide that they are selfish. People say allot of things when they are grieving. *BUT* I also hear sympathy, regret, and anguish. EVERYONE always wishes they could have _*known*_, could have_ *helped*_, could have _*done something*_. It goes way beyond the one emotion of anger and into a completely different realm of grief and sadness.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I like the song too Ren.......
> 
> 
> I had a period when I was 28 years old.........where I fell into a deep depression over my life and failing marriage to an alcoholic. I wept uncontrollably many times through out the day, thought of ways to kill myself and even told my ex what he should do with our daughter "if I died". He never picked up on what was going on even though I talked about dying everyday......
> ...



Thank you for that post, very personal and telling. Thank you for trusting us enough to share your experience.


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## CleverBomb (Jan 6, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> I like the song too Ren.......
> 
> 
> I had a period when I was 28 years old.........where I fell into a deep depression over my life and failing marriage to an alcoholic. I wept uncontrollably many times through out the day, thought of ways to kill myself and even told my ex what he should do with our daughter "if I died". He never picked up on what was going on even though I talked about dying everyday......
> ...


Wow. Just... wow.
Thank you.

-Rusty
(...with his hat off for GEF. And could someone rep her for me, please?)


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## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

CleverBomb said:


> Wow. Just... wow.
> Thank you.
> 
> -Rusty
> (...with his hat off for GEF. And could someone rep her for me, please?)




Got her for you.


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## CleverBomb (Jan 6, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> Got her for you.


Thanks!
I think I tagged you earlier today, 'cause I can't rep you either 

No doubt when I can rep again, you'll have something worthy up then too. 

-Rusty


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## bexy (Jan 6, 2008)

*as those of you who have read my posts in the health forum will know i have suffered from depression for many years and have tried twice in that time to take my own life.

once i openly admit was a cry for attention. my mother had already disowned me and i was living with my friend and her family, and i all i wanted was my mum to care about me. so i took an overdose and was rushed to hospital. i begged my friends mum to call my mother to tell her to come to the hospital. my friends mum came back when i was being made to drink charcoal, shaking her head. my mother had refused to pay the taxi fare to the hospital and didnt come. that ended my relationship with her there and then.


the second time was at a point when my depression was at its worst and i really did want to die. i was married at the time, very unhappily, and planned my suicide to the final detail. once my husband was asleep i dressed in my nicest clothes and took 120 anti depressants. 

i was soon taking fits and seizures and woke up a day later in hospital. all i can think at the time was that i could have died and would never have known, as i dont remember the fits or blacking out. i wished i had succeeded, even though i saw how angry my husband was, i felt he was angry with embarrassment nothing else.

suicide has affected my life too, my grandfather took his own life after years of abusing me. he abused my cousin who had the balls to tell and the day before he was due to appear in court he committed suicide. he wrote a suicide note saying he had never touched me and was innocent, and loved me. so even in death he was still a coward. the rest of the family disowned my cousin blaming her for my grandfathers death.

now even though i still suffer from depression i KNOW i will never ever do it again, as i could not do that to my cutie. i see how much he adores me and know that even if i felt nothing, even if i just took pills and fell asleep, it would kill him inside.

i also have someone in my life who lost her partner to suicide and now fronts a suicide awareness group. hearing the stories and working with those people has made me realise it is not the person taking their own life who hurts, but those left behind. even though i have tried it, i think its the most selfish thing anyone could ever ever do to the people they love.*


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## Brenda (Jan 7, 2008)

While my sister did not commit suicide she died well extremely depressed and stating just weeks before her death that she wish she had the nerve to end it.

Her death destroyed my family. It devastated her children's life and changed me in a very profound and negative way. In the nearly four years since her death rarely a day goes by that I don't dream of her death or cry for her. I miss her more than she could have ever imagined.

What breaks my heart more than losing her is her losing herself. All the beauty and small joys she will not experience. Simply put her death is not something I will recover from.

When I heard this song it really tapped into how I feel.

Lucinda Williams

See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world
The breath from your own lips, the touch of fingertips
A sweet and tender kiss
The sound of a midnight train, wearing someone's ring
Someone calling your name
Somebody so warm cradled in your arm
Didn't you think you were worth anything
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world

SOLO

Millions of us in love, promises made good
Your own flesh and blood
Looking for some truth, dancing with no shoes
The beat, the rhythm, the blues
The pounding of your heart's drum together with another one
Didn't you think anyone loved you
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old world
See what you lost when you left this world, this sweet old w


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## activistfatgirl (Jan 7, 2008)

suicide breaks my heart. because i've wanted it so bad i could taste it (many years ago). because i've seen it win several great people.

To me, Barb, the thing that immedidately makes me crazy about suicide is that many many people suffer from depression and ideations. Thousands of people. And I say struggle cause it's an ongoing disease that people are living with. While suicides are obviously hard on the families, friends, I often think about how each person that says "I just can't do it anymore" impacts hundreds of strangers who have the same affliction. How much harder it is to soldier on.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself. Depression is real, and there's a community of people out there to reach out to, hold each other up, people who really get what it's like to have those thoughts in your head. And that human solidarity - we're gonna get through this! - could be enough to help someone through the next time the urge comes.

Possibly suicide ends temporal suffering in the suffer. But it multiplies the suffering of the world. For what it's worth.


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## Friday (Jan 7, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think i see where Barb was going with this.
> 
> I think what she was upset about was that much of the reactions that people have to suicides/suicide attempts are framed in selfish terms. And by selfish i mean there are remarks along the lines of "I was so angry at the person" or "That person was selfish for killing himself because of how it made others feel."
> 
> *I think Barb was not seeing a lot of concern for the person who had died,* or an attempt to understand why they'd done it, but more of a focus on 'how could that person do this TO ME' when it's typically NOT about other people.



They're dead, what good is concern going to do them now? And where was their concern for those that loved them? Like I said, I understand intellectually that suicide is about being in a place so dark that there is no light and no hope of there ever being light, but like it or not we are emotional beings and it is devastating for those of us left behind. Do you not think that the parents and friends left behind feel crippling guilt for not 'knowing' even though it's not their fault? And what about the kids of people that choose death over life? Do you not think that everyone of them wonders why they weren't worth sticking around for? Suicide never stops pain. It just multiplies and spreads it.

And there are no quick and painless endings. Some one always has to clean up. Literally, legally...females especially tend to think of swallowing a handful of somethings and just laying down as an easy way to go (seems like that was always what we talked about as teens), but as Bexy pointed out you don't just fall asleep. Unlike the brain, your body wants desperately to stay alive and it will vomit and convulse in an attempt to rid itself of whatever has been swallowed so that it can survive. Isn't that a pretty way to be remembered? Bullets? I knew a guy for years that only had a face down to about 1/2 inch from where the end of his nose should of been. The part that always flummoxed me was that after he put that shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger, THEN he decided life was worth living. :doh:

Incidentally, since someone else mentioned it...I don't consider choosing not to ride out a terminal illness to be suicide, provided that you tie up your loose ends before you go. Our society these days has almost totally lost the concept of death with dignity. The system will let a cancer patient die rather than pay for an experimental treatment, but they make sure that basic care keeps you lingering to the bitter end while they deny you sufficient pain medication to make you comfortable just to make sure you don't get addicted. When/if that time comes for me, all my affairs will be put in order, my goodbyes will be made and then I'll exit this stage of life.


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## love dubh (Jan 7, 2008)

goofy girl said:


> I have to say that I am totally for assisted suicide for people that are suffering terminal illness. I don't remember why I was saying that though.



Here's another dimension I usually don't consider during conversations of suicide. Assisted suicide. I, too, believe in it and an ill (deathly or terribly chronically) individual's right to take their own lives. I feel this is more humane than pumping a person with meds or keeping them artificially alive with machines *if they do not want to be.* I believe my own mother has said that, if she ever became so terribly ill that she could not bare it, she would choose this option. Myself, I would probably choose this option if the alternative was being kept alive artificially. I think it's better to have control of our death, make our peace, say goodbye, and push off. I think, sometimes, this decision takes a lot of pain and grief off the shoulders of our loved ones, too.

Yet, do you all think that this decision is "selfish" or not? How does it relate to "depressive" suicide? (I don't know what else to call it.)


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## Friday (Jan 7, 2008)

Suicide to me is ending your life because you can't or won't deal with your issues. It's leaving a life unfinished, a lesson unlearned, people unloved.

Having lived a life and knowing that your days are numbered and that none of them will be good, choosing to tie up all your loose ends, tell the people you love how much you love them, and then sparing yourself (and them!!!) the last few horrible days is not a bad thing. I've had loved ones choose to go this way and I've had loved ones waste away an inch at a time with absolutely no hope of every getting better. I know which I'll choose...

(Emphysema is a very ugly way to go. Quit smoking please. For the people you love.)


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## liz (di-va) (Jan 7, 2008)

One of the worst things about suicide as I've experienced it? How tenacious an idea it can be. The first person I ever knew who committed suicide was the mother of my friends in elementary school (very pre-pharmaceutical revolution). And it was clear she was going to do it, no matter what help she got, no matter what she 'had to live for.' I could see it eventually, once my mom explained it...there was nothing any adult could do could stop it. She was a very sweet person who looked at us and my friends (her children) with enormous love and vulnerability in her eyes and nothing was as important as how much she wanted to die. I found it horrifying and confusing inasmuch as I understood it, but I think my friends felt betrayed. They couldn't help it. You would think the fact that it was "inevitable" might have eased the pain for her survivors, but I think they felt that she loved death more than them. I don't know that you really love anything like that when you feel that bad, but it was awful regardless. 

---

I think depression is the worst, because now matter how bad you feel--no matter how bad *depression* makes you feel--you don't get an exemption from fighting it. To get better you have to fight it, like cancer, even as the illness hobbles you in every direction, takes away every tool you have (health, energy, sense of self, faith in the future, sense of belonging), tools others take for granted. It's awful, but...there are no alternatives. It's great there's more help than they're used to be, but the pit of despair is the pit of despair. It isn't fair.

Having said that, I would still not say I've read anything here I'd say was terming suicide 'selfish.' The only people to ask later what suicide's effects are are the survivors. Clearly it has a horrible long reach in many people's lives, and this is what it looks like when it happens, not just when someone considers it. 

There's nothing either/or about suicide. That is, I don't think it's all choice or all lack of choice. I have nothing but sympathy for anybody who feels so bad they want to die, but I don't think you get out of being ultimately culpable for your life or your death, if you choose that way out. I would never assume (despite my own experiences with depression and suicidal feelings, which started young in life) that I know how bad somebody who committed suicide felt, or what they felt, period. Mental illness is the complete worst, horribly unfair and cruel. But there is also just...a tiny, unavoidable spark of choice in the idea of suicide, even sometimes in the cases where someone is clearly out of their mind (look at the case of Anderson Cooper's brother).

- - - -

My personal attitude about it suicide, and depression, is partly informed by getting older and knowing now for real that there is great virtue in just _hanging on_. That is, I am not going to assume I know 100% of what the world can do to surprise me...that kind of hubris keeps falling away, blessedly, even in the midst of an aging 'certainty' that I know it all better . Hah.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 7, 2008)

Friday said:


> They're dead, what good is concern going to do them now? And where was their concern for those that loved them? Like I said, I understand intellectually that suicide is about being in a place so dark that there is no light and no hope of there ever being light, but like it or not we are emotional beings and it is devastating for those of us left behind. Do you not think that the parents and friends left behind feel crippling guilt for not 'knowing' even though it's not their fault? And what about the kids of people that choose death over life? Do you not think that everyone of them wonders why they weren't worth sticking around for? Suicide never stops pain. It just multiplies and spreads it.



I think this attitude is still what Barb was questioning. It's not a question of whether or not your concern is going to "do them any good" but more a question of whether or not the suicide might make others realize how much pain the dead person was in. In other words, it's not about the "others." Again, I think where Barb was going with this is that it's maybe selfish to think about how the suicide affected you and not to think about what problems the person must have had.

It's the easiest thing in the world when you're not living somebody else's life and not feeling the pain they are in to pass judgement on how they deal with it.

And a word about depression. I think the widespread use of psychoactive drugs and the social acceptibility of therapy have made a lot of people think depression is always treatable. It's not. It's not different from any other chronic condition where a sufferer might try all sorts of treatments and they just don't work. It's not always a matter of trying harder.


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## moore2me (Jan 7, 2008)

Friday said:


> They're dead, what good is concern going to do them now? And where was their concern for those that loved them? Like I said, I understand intellectually that suicide is about being in a place so dark that there is no light and no hope of there ever being light, but like it or not we are emotional beings and it is devastating for those of us left behind. Do you not think that the parents and friends left behind feel crippling guilt for not 'knowing' even though it's not their fault? And what about the kids of people that choose death over life? Do you not think that everyone of them wonders why they weren't worth sticking around for? Suicide never stops pain. It just multiplies and spreads it.
> 
> And there are no quick and painless endings. Some one always has to clean up. Literally, legally...females especially tend to think of swallowing a handful of somethings and just laying down as an easy way to go (seems like that was always what we talked about as teens), but as Bexy pointed out you don't just fall asleep. Unlike the brain, your body wants desperately to stay alive and it will vomit and convulse in an attempt to rid itself of whatever has been swallowed so that it can survive. Isn't that a pretty way to be remembered? Bullets? I knew a guy for years that only had a face down to about 1/2 inch from where the end of his nose should of been. The part that always flummoxed me was that after he put that shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger, THEN he decided life was worth living. :doh:
> 
> Incidentally, since someone else mentioned it...I don't consider choosing not to ride out a terminal illness to be suicide, provided that you tie up your loose ends before you go. Our society these days has almost totally lost the concept of death with dignity. The system will let a cancer patient die rather than pay for an experimental treatment, but they make sure that basic care keeps you lingering to the bitter end while they deny you sufficient pain medication to make you comfortable just to make sure you don't get addicted. When/if that time comes for me, all my affairs will be put in order, my goodbyes will be made and then I'll exit this stage of life.



Friday,

I absolutely agree with you. Cleaning up after a suicide is just horrible. Whoever has to do it is sentenced to years of nightmares, especially if it is someone you knew and loved. 

But, you are exactly right on the terminally ill's right to a death with dignity. I believe people have the right to die as they want to. Most want to die at home, where they are comfortable. This is hard on their family & caregivers, but if it's your last wish - it should stand firm. You should also choose to die without being poked. prodded, sliced & diced by hospitals if that's what you want. If you want to die peacefully in your sleep & someone can make it so, then that should be your right. Relatives should stand down and let their loved one decide this (however, sometimes it must be down ahead of time, before mental deterioration or morphine induced stupor occur). What I am saying is, it must be decided on in advance & due to legal issues, confidentally.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have a brother who has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, clinical depression, and chronic alcoholism. He's 37 years old, homeless, jobless, penniless, lost. I sheltered him for years, because I couldn't bear the idea of him living on the streets. Years of turmoil, fear, feelings of hopelessness all around .. . his, mine, everyone who cares about him. Years of having the police and ambulances at my home at 2 a.m. because he was so drunk I feared for his life ... or so caught up in one of his delusions that I feared for my own & my husband's. Years of living with the knowledge that he was stealing from us, finding ways to hot wire one of our vehicles while we were at work (and fearing that he'd take someone's life while driving drunk), rummaging through our closets & personal belongings to find alcohol or items that he could sell to buy it. Years of knowing that he could take his life at any moment, and my greatest fear being that he'd bring an innocent bystander along with him. Years of upheaval and madness. Years of enabling him. 

I had to let go a long time ago. He still comes around every now and then, and I take him in for a few days or weeks, while trying to find yet a new treatment center or sober house that will take him in. He's been through at least a dozen treatment programs, at least half a dozen mental health facilities, any number of homeless shelters and group homes. His mental illness, combined with the chemical addiction, makes treatment a very distant hope for recovery. The same thing always happens: He stops drinking long enough to receive treatment for his mental illness ... stabilizes ... and thinks that he doesn't need the drugs anymore ... stops taking them, his inner demons return, and he starts drinking again. It is a never-ending cycle that changes only in the shortening duration between episodes of recovery.

I know this much: He doesn't want to be homeless, filthy, living in shelters or on the streets, begging (or worse) for money & never knowing where his next meal will come from. He doesn't want to die from alcohol poisoning, or because he got drunk and fell asleep outside in the subzero Minnesota weather (or got beaten to death while in such a vulnerable state). There is still a part of him that wants a better life, that cares how much he's hurting himself (and inasmuch as he's capable of empathy ... those of us who love him). I still see the sweet young boy that he once was, so tender-hearted and eager for love and acceptance, so willing to share his toys or any good fortune that came his way with his siblings. He's in there somewhere. If it were a simple matter of sobering up and staying on the meds, he'd have accomplished this long ago. If it were only one (depression) or the other (alcoholism), his chances of recovery would be so much better. His illnesses have made him extremely self-centered, self-absorbed, and incapable of empathy or insight. When he lived with me, he threatened suicide as a matter of routine. He did it in part to manipulate me, and in larger part because that was his reality ... when you struggle just to get out of bed in the morning, or just to keep from drinking yourself into a stumbling, urine-soaked, vomiting mess ... and you've lost everything that ever mattered to you, and your very sanity is hanging by a tenuous thread ... every moment that you spend just breathing is an uphill battle. I see that very clearly in my brother, and I don't blame him for his illness. Yet I also know this: If he ever has a chance of being saved, he has to save himself. I cannot do it for him, nor can the finest of mental & chemical health providers. 

If my brother died, I would grieve, but there would also be a part of me that would be relieved that his suffering has ended. His life is nothing more than a gaping wound, mostly self-inflicted. 

As for how the process affects everyone ... I think that's quite evident. My brother is committing a torturously slow version of suicide. When your only choice becomes to jump with him, or cut the rope ... either decision leaves scars.


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## moore2me (Jan 7, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> I have a brother who has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, clinical depression, and chronic alcoholism. He's 37 years old, homeless, jobless, penniless, lost. I sheltered him for years, because I couldn't bear the idea of him living on the streets. Years of turmoil, fear, feelings of hopelessness all around .. . his, mine, everyone who cares about him. Years of having the police and ambulances at my home at 2 a.m. because he was so drunk I feared for his life ... or so caught up in one of his delusions that I feared for my own & my husband's. Years of living with the knowledge that he was stealing from us, finding ways to hot wire one of our vehicles while we were at work (and fearing that he'd take someone's life while driving drunk), rummaging through our closets & personal belongings to find alcohol or items that he could sell to buy it. Years of knowing that he could take his life at any moment, and my greatest fear being that he'd bring an innocent bystander along with him. Years of upheaval and madness. Years of enabling him.
> 
> I had to let go a long time ago. He still comes around every now and then, and I take him in for a few days or weeks, while trying to find yet a new treatment center or sober house that will take him in. He's been through at least a dozen treatment programs, at least half a dozen mental health facilities, any number of homeless shelters and group homes. His mental illness, combined with the chemical addiction, makes treatment a very distant hope for recovery. The same thing always happens: He stops drinking long enough to receive treatment for his mental illness ... stabilizes ... and thinks that he doesn't need the drugs anymore ... stops taking them, his inner demons return, and he starts drinking again. It is a never-ending cycle that changes only in the shortening duration between episodes of recovery.
> 
> ...



I would not call what you are doing enabling him. When someone is physically sick (say with fever) or mentally ill (seizures or pychosis) and cannot help themselves or control their behavior - to give them shelter is not enabling in my book. Enabling is when we "encourage" an unhealthy behavior by contributing to the person's ability to do the bad thing - such as driving them to the liquor store, giving them money to buy crack, giving cake & ice cream to a diabetic, or letting an alcholic keep coming home & beating you up and then saying he's sorry (again).

Your story about your brother is so sad. I think it is a perfect example on how our society has gone astray in dealing with mental illness. When we stopped institutionalizing people, yes, some were let out of confinement that truly did not need to be in "homes" or "colonies". But, others like your brother, need to be involuntarily committed from what you described. Depending on them to do it themselves, just doesn't make sense in my book. It's like depending on a person with tuberculosis to cure themselves or depending on a person with brain cancer to fight it themselves. And, to expect them to be fixed in 30 days (due to insurance restraints, etc.) is equally as ludicrous. There are some mental health problems that can never be fixed and may require permanent institutionalization in my book (and yes I know that is very expensive and controversial).


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## DeniseW (Jan 7, 2008)

I contemplated it many times as a teenager(had a hellatious school life) but never had the guts to go through with it. Also, when my father passed away several years ago, they tried to tell me it was suicide, he was hit by a car while on his motorcycle and they tried to tell me he pulled out intentionally. They could never prove it however but even thinking that he may have killed himself, left me so upset for a long long time. He had some health issues he was dealing with and I don't think he was handling getting older very well but I don't think he killed himself. There is so much guilt associated with suicide for the people left behind. In reality, if a person is bent on killing themselves, I don't think there is anything anyone can do.


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## Ernest Nagel (Jan 7, 2008)

This isn't going to be easy for me to write about. So many of you have been so generous I just feel obliged to share from my experience. There are many, many reasons for and methods of suicide. I suffered from Parkinson's disease for almost 10 years. I'll spare you the gory details but I was very determined not to go the full course and have my family deal with that burden. From almost the day I was diagnosed I began conceiving of various ways to take myself out via accident or apparent natural causes. It was a simple, pragmatic determination and I was never depressed or emotional about it. It was just something I viewed as necessary and appropriate. (Suicide is one of the top three causes of death for Parkinson's patients, by the way.) I was very close to implementing one of those solutions when I learned of a treatment that has since restored me to full health. So I believe in both miracles and stealth suicide. I am not, generally speaking, a moral relativist but I feel some situations do constitute extenuating circumstances. Notes are what make it most selfish, imo. There is nothing that can be said that won't make it worse.

By strange coincidence I have also been referenced in more than a few suicide notes. For nearly 17 years I worked as a forensic accountant, uncovering fraud and embezzlement. Even though I generally dealt in what was referred to as surgical excision, where no jail time or public humiliation was an issue, around 10% would choose the so called cowards way out. At the time I burned out I had approximately 20 notches on my pencil. No matter how hard I worked to intercede or preempt the eventuality or how many times I was successful that is a burden I will take with me to my grave. It's an occupational hazard that can be rationalized in many ways, but none that are especially helpful to those 20 families. There are, of course, always choices to be made but the worst ones are those that take so many choices away from those left behind and leave in their place only doubt and despair. The problem is suicide victim is an oxymoron; its always plural.


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## Ernest Nagel (Jan 7, 2008)

aka, the theme from M*A*S*H, just since no one mentioned it.



Lyrics to the song 'Suicide is Painless'

Through early morning fog I see

visions of the things to be

the pains that are withheld for me

I realize and I can see...

[REFRAIN]:

that suicide is painless

It brings on many changes

and I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make

all our little joys relate

without that ever-present hate

but now I know that it's too late, and...

[REFRAIN]

The game of life is hard to play

I'm gonna lose it anyway

The losing card I'll someday lay

so this is all I have to say.

[REFRAIN]

The only way to win is cheat

And lay it down before I'm beat

and to another give my seat

for that's the only painless feat.

[REFRAIN]

The sword of time will pierce our skins

It doesn't hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in

The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...

[REFRAIN]

A brave man once requested me

to answer questions that are key

is it to be or not to be

and I replied 'oh why ask me?'

[REFRAIN]

'Cause suicide is painless

it brings on many changes

and I can take or leave it if I please.

...and you can do the same thing if you please.


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## Max_C (Jan 7, 2008)

Wow... this entire thread is so personal. I'm still a newb here. I guess I'm not used to the level of comfort everyone here is displaying with each other. This is a real community! I'm so touched by the posts here I can't even begin to describe it.

After reading some of the posts in this thread, I wouldn't dare say I know how some of you feel. Yes, I've been in some bad spots in my life... but at a young age I learned to constantly evaluate myself, my position in life, where I've been, and where I'm headed. Experience has taught me that no matter how bad it gets, the bad times are only temporary. There have been times when I've thought the bad times wouldn't end, but they always have... eventually.

For those of you that have "been there" would you mind sharing what has helped you get back on your feet? I can already see this thread as being tremendously therapeutic for future readers. It always helps to know you're not alone.

Thanks to those of you who have shared.

Max.


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## bexy (Jan 7, 2008)

Max_C said:


> Wow... this entire thread is so personal. I'm still a newb here. I guess I'm not used to the level of comfort everyone here is displaying with each other. This is a real community! I'm so touched by the posts here I can't even begin to describe it.
> 
> After reading some of the posts in this thread, I wouldn't dare say I know how some of you feel. Yes, I've been in some bad spots in my life... but at a young age I learned to constantly evaluate myself, my position in life, where I've been, and where I'm headed. Experience has taught me that no matter how bad it gets, the bad times are only temporary. There have been times when I've thought the bad times wouldn't end, but they always have... eventually.
> 
> ...



*yep once u get ur feet under the table u cant help but feel happy enough to share! i actually find this easier than sitting down and talking face to face to some of my friends as i still have it in my head that there is a stigma attached to deprssion. at least i know i wont be judged, or know anyone here too personally.

im still suffering from my depression and i think i always will, its an illness and im ok with that. but what has gotten me over the worse times?

-getting sexual abuse counselling from the most wonderful counsellor i ever met
-getting psychiatric help and taking advantage of it
-getting meds and taking them
-seperating myself from the people making my life as bad as it was, ie my family and my ex
-finding the best friends i could wish for
-finding the love of my life, my wonderful george
-talking, being open and as honest as possible
-not allowing myself to feel guilty or bad anymore 
-finding a good doctor*


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## Friday (Jan 8, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think this attitude is still what Barb was questioning. It's not a question of whether or not your concern is going to "do them any good" but more a question of whether or not the suicide might make others realize how much pain the dead person was in.



I do understand where Barb was headed LoveBHM, I really do. What I'm telling you is that when I hear that someone has committed suicide the very last thought in my mind is 'Oh, the poor thing.'. My sympathy is for the living, those that are feeling horrible pain NOW, not for the person who caused that pain. That person is in theory now free from pain, but personally, I hope they are somewhere they can see exactly what they've done to those they've left behind.

I say these things as someone who almost lost the person I love most in the world to suicide in 6/06 so maybe I'm some kind of unfeeling monster. But you know what stopped him? He said he couldn't bear the thought of what it would do to the people he loves. He knows this from first hand experience because his youngest brother committed suicide. Anyone who has ever lost someone they care for to suicide should be able to see the same thing.


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## Friday (Jan 8, 2008)

Ernest Nagel said:


> By strange coincidence I have also been referenced in more than a few suicide notes. For nearly 17 years I worked as a forensic accountant, uncovering fraud and embezzlement. Even though I generally dealt in what was referred to as surgical excision, where no jail time or public humiliation was an issue, around 10% would choose the so called cowards way out. At the time I burned out I had approximately 20 notches on my pencil. No matter how hard I worked to intercede or preempt the eventuality or how many times I was successful that is a burden I will take with me to my grave.



Ernest, you shouldn't feel any guilt over this. No more than a cop should feel guilt when they bust a child molester who consequently chooses suicide rather than facing punishment for what they've done. I don't think that people who choose suicide rather than atonement feel guilt at all, it's just more of the same self centeredness that made them think it was OK to do what they knew was wrong to begin with.


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## Dravenhawk (Jan 8, 2008)

In the last year things have been aweful rough for me. My now ex-wife has divorced me having run off with another guy, I have lost my beloved home and I cannot take my cat with me where I am moving. There are other things as well that are going on that are quite depressing. My marriage was not the best mind you. I have given suiside a passing consideration but I have too strong of a will to live to end it all for such petty reasons. If I were to sacrifice my life it would be so others would benefit, like pulling someone out of a burning building or taking a bullit so a kid didn't have to get killed.
I have never known anyone firsthand who has attempted suiside let alone been successful with a suiside attempt.

Dravenhawk


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## Tad (Jan 8, 2008)

liz (di-va) said:


> My personal attitude about it suicide, and depression, is partly informed by getting older and knowing now for real that there is great virtue in just _hanging on_. That is, I am not going to assume I know 100% of what the world can do to surprise me...that kind of hubris keeps falling away, blessedly, even in the midst of an aging 'certainty' that I know it all better . Hah.



"Great virtue in just hanging on" Oh, you are so getting rep for that, if my rep bucket has re-filled itself yet.


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## Friday (Jan 10, 2008)

One of my co-workers went home after work last night and found his 20 year old son laying on the floor with his brains spattered all over. The boy has parents, four siblings and several nieces and nephews who loved him very much. Does anyone think that there is less fucking pain in the world now than there was before that boy pulled the trigger?


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## Ash (Jan 10, 2008)

Friday said:


> One of my co-workers went home after work last night and found his 20 year old son laying on the floor with his brains spattered all over. The boy has parents, four siblings and several nieces and nephews who loved him very much. Does anyone think that there is less fucking pain in the world now than there was before that boy pulled the trigger?



Does it make ANYONE feel better, blaming the kid? 

This is tragic and heartbreaking, and I am truly devastated for all parties. Including the boy who thought he had no other option.


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## bexy (Jan 10, 2008)

Friday said:


> One of my co-workers went home after work last night and found his 20 year old son laying on the floor with his brains spattered all over. The boy has parents, four siblings and several nieces and nephews who loved him very much. Does anyone think that there is less fucking pain in the world now than there was before that boy pulled the trigger?



* so sorry to hear this. the only one not suffering now is the poor boy who took his own life. for everyone else the suffering is about to begin.

awful news.*


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jan 10, 2008)

Friday said:


> One of my co-workers went home after work last night and found his 20 year old son laying on the floor with his brains spattered all over. The boy has parents, four siblings and several nieces and nephews who loved him very much. Does anyone think that there is less fucking pain in the world now than there was before that boy pulled the trigger?



I know how painful it is to find that, but have you dealt with suicidal feelings, Friday? Have you dealt with so much pain and when you try to talk to friends and family, getting the brushoff? 

Mental illness weighs you down and twists your brain in a million sick ways. 

I have been UTTERLY alone in the world, and had I committed suicide when I was a teenager, people would have said, "Oh, she had no reason to do that! She grew up in a middle class family and made good grades and blah blah blah." No one could have guessed the crap I lived with and was expected just to shrug off. 

Often people who kill themselves face rejection if they vent, or having their social world crumble or ruining the lives of others, so they think. It just seems simpler. 

I can't even think this through right now, but blaming someone in so much hurt and pain is just beyond me. I'm not mad at you, just baffled.


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## Friday (Jan 10, 2008)

You didn't do it Casey. Whether it was because you thought you deserved better or because you thought of the feelings of those around you or maybe just because you're to damn contrary (like me) to let the bastards win, you didn't do it. This boy had said nothing to anyone to make them think he was having issues. His Dad would have walked through fire for him. Instead, the boy chose this. No hints, no warnings, no nothing. Just hell for a family that had already been there/done that when they lost another child to a speeding pizza delivery truck before this one was born.

You're right I don't understand. I never will.


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## bexy (Jan 10, 2008)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> I know how painful it is to find that, but have you dealt with suicidal feelings, Friday? Have you dealt with so much pain and when you try to talk to friends and family, getting the brushoff?
> 
> Mental illness weighs you down and twists your brain in a million sick ways.
> 
> ...





Friday said:


> You didn't do it Casey. Whether it was because you thought you deserved better or because you thought of the feelings of those around you or maybe just because you're to damn contrary (like me) to let the bastards win, you didn't do it. This boy had said nothing to anyone to make them think he was having issues. His Dad would have walked through fire for him. Instead, the boy chose this. No hints, no warnings, no nothing. Just hell for a family that had already been there/done that when they lost another child to a speeding pizza delivery truck before this one was born.
> 
> You're right I don't understand. I never will.



*i can completely understand both sides of the coin here. this boy seemingly never asked for help and never mentioned his feelings. for all we know this could have been impulse after a fight with a gf or friend, you hear about that all of the time.
i have had suicidal thoughts. ive tried twice. but i will never, ever do it again no matter how bad my depression gets as i have seen the trail of destruction this leaves behind.
i think what friday is mad about is that this could have been prevented, and no matter how low you feel in my opinion suicide is a selfish act.*


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## Tina (Jan 11, 2008)

I won't go into my own past feelings of wanting to die, so instead I'll tell you about my friend, Linda.

We met at college, when we were both entering our art into a scholarship contest. We just kind of started talking. From there, we went out to lunch and talked some more. She had been having difficulty working, due to physical and emotional issues, and I told her about some programs that could help her. She was able to get help from them and called me up and said she'd like to take me out to dinner to thank me for the help, so we went. We had a lot in common, and so our friendship really began in earnest then. 


Linda rented what's called a Mother In-Law's room -- basically a little apartment above the garage owned by a nice older couple. From time to time I went to her house, where her cat, "Figment" would hide when I entered, and we played Scrabble, ate cheese and crackers and drank wine while we got to know each other. I learned a bit about her history and her family (who sounded horrid).

One night she told me she was going to kill herself. She told me not to try to stop her, because it wouldn't work, that she had been planning it for a long time and even her therapist knew. She was unmovable. I won't go into specifics, because I do not believe this should be an informational post about how to do oneself in, but she was lining her ducks up in a row. I was shocked, dismayed -- the whole gamut -- but she was bound and determined that she would do it. Her therapist reporting her and sending in an evaluation team, and the regular protocol for such things as suicide ideation did no good. So, I just continued to be her friend and to enjoy her company immensely, hoping somehow she wouldn't go through with it.

That winter I had been sick with pneumonia (probably one of the last of a dozen times I've had it), and it had been raining and cold, so I hadn't seen Linda, or even gone out. I tried to call her a few times to no avail. After the third day of trying to call her and not being able to reach her, I called her therapist. Told him I knew of her plan and knew that he knew, and that I couldn't reach her and was worried. He called back a few hours later, telling me they found her and Figment dead in the apt. Her dog would be adopted out, but she knew that Figment was too skittish to be placed in a home environment, so she brought Figment with her. 

Several days later, her landlords called me. Said her family swept through and took anything of value and just left the rest. The rest consisted of the things that really meant something to her, and were things that told of who she was. They said I could come over and take whatever I liked. I went over to her picked-over apartment and grabbed the Scrabble game, one of her simple Ren Fair outfits and a photo she took that had been my favorite. She volunteered in a nursing home and liked to take photos of the residents. This photo is a B&W of the lovely hands of an elderly woman, crossed, with the veins and thin skin that age brings, laid upon a tapestry pillow. You could see the sweater she wore (the photo was cropped above the wrists). The photo was full of texture, and to me was purely Linda. I still have it, though it's still in storage until I can bring my stuff over.

Linda left behind someone who loved and cared about her: me. Her family is shit. She hadn't many friends. She couldn't stand this life, though, or get away from what was torturing her. I understand why she did what she did, but I have long missed having her in my life and always think of her this time of year.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jan 11, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> How bad is suicide, really? That's what I want to find out. If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed? Is there any part of you that is at least happy they're not suffering anymore? If you've had a failed attempt yourself, how do you feel about it now?
> 
> I have no idea if this thread will work. I realize it's a subject that probably not a lot of people will want to talk about. Also, I'm NOT looking for a bunch of "don't do it" posts and links to the samaritans. I'm looking for how the process affects everyone. Thanks.




My brother committed suicide about 6 years ago. One day I was at his house, he was happy and looking foward to the birth of his son and that night he took a his gun out of his closet put it up to his head and pulled the trigger. 

He didn't die right away, as a matter of fact it took probably 30-40 minutes while his wife and daughter watched him jerk and spasm and struggle to breathe as his lungs filled up with blood that he was swallowing as his body was trying to breathe for him. See they had to watch him die because he chose to do this while his family was sleeping in the other room, so while he selfishly took a road that he thought was easier his family was left with a nightmare. Did he feel any pain? I have no clue, he never woke up. From what was described by his wife and the paramedics he most definitely felt some pain. 

I can't speak for anyone else in my family about how they feel but I can tell you that I absoultely HATED my brother for quite a while. Still on some days I find myself angry about what he did, and just really about how selfish he was. His pain, whatever it was, mattered more to him than the pain he was going to cause the people who loved him most in the whole fucking world. 

Even harder still was seeing him laying dead (brain dead because they hooked him up to a machine to harvest his organs) and having the image of his bruised, swollen, and bloody face be the very last image I had of him. I can't think of my brother now without that face flashing in front of my eyes. Catching my mother as she fell to the floor when going into the room to say goodbye, watching my father kiss his only son goodbye, those are the things that came along with my experience of suicide. Its ugly, selfish, cruel and the people that are left behind are left with feelings of anger and guilt. 

I understand that people who are suicidal are usually that way because they are in a lot of pain and they dont see another way out, because of my personal experience with it I find that I'm not always very nice in my response so I hope I didn't come off bitchy.


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## bexy (Jan 11, 2008)

*ella i completely 100% agree with everything you said there, and am so sorry you all had to go through that. 
these are the exact reasons i fight any thoughts i have of taking my own life, and why i get so angry with the friend of mine that threatens it constantly. i feel the lowest of the low often. but never ever could i leave behind repurcussions such as the ones you all had, and sill have to deal with.*


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## liz (di-va) (Jan 11, 2008)

Nobody asked me, but I wanna say:

This is an incredibly sensitive, inflammatory, upsetting, personal, emotional and complicated subject. I think people are being very brave sharing their own experiences and heartbreak here and don't think you can get on anybody for their feelings about it. I mean...RW wanted to know what people's experiences were with suicide--this is what they look like, whether they 'should' or not. I don't think you can, with this experience especially, know what things are like for anybody else. It seems a little pandora's box to get into finger-pointing (even the mildest, most abstract) of any kind. Maybe it should just stay an experiential thread, not a discussion-based one? Or I mean...just a place to post, not to comment?

I'm probably being overly-sensitive, but this is the kind of topic I think you have to tread really carefully with.

My $.02.


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## mossystate (Jan 11, 2008)

My head swirls when I read all of these posts. I can't see that there is any black or white, only many shades of grey. I sometimes think there are people who just were not meant to hang on. I also understand the white hot grief of those, if there are ' those ', who are left to take more breaths and to remember. Maybe some could have a softer place for those who did what they feel they had to do. I have had those horribly dark feelings. Yes, I am still here, but, if one day I were not, I would hope at least one person, while thinking of me with some degree of fondness, would let up on the anger, and just wish me a more peaceful journey. Like I said, I understand all sides.


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## bexy (Jan 11, 2008)

*i probably shouldnt post comments here, as i am biased. i help my friends mum at work, and she fronts a suicide awareness and bereavement centre. she is from west belfast which has the highest rate of suicides in young males anywhere in the uk. its awful how often someone there dies through taking their own life.
having attended lots of her seminars and meetings, and chatting with the people who have been left behind, it has influenced my feelings greatly. i have contemplated it, i have tried it, but i wouldnt and couldnt again. that said of course i would feel a lot more than just anger if i lost someone to suicide. i would be devastated and a little piece of me would go with them. i would feel guilt, dismay, words i cant even think of right now.

i think its just because i have had such direct access to a huge number of people who have lost someone this way, that i am so opiniated about it. im not meaning to offend or seem insensitive.
*


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## liz (di-va) (Jan 11, 2008)

That's what I mean, I guess...everyone's entitled to an opinion here, it's inevitably part of one's feelings. I dunno, maybe I'm being hopelessly Pollyanna-ish and vague, don't mean to.


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## butch (Jan 11, 2008)

I was going to post here, and wrote 2 different responses, but realized I just can't do it. Wish i could, and admire those of you who have. I wish no one in this world had to feel the pain that leads someone to contemplate suicide, and my heart goes out to all of you affected.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (Jan 11, 2008)

Friday said:


> You didn't do it Casey. Whether it was because you thought you deserved better or because you thought of the feelings of those around you or maybe just because you're to damn contrary (like me) to let the bastards win, you didn't do it. This boy had said nothing to anyone to make them think he was having issues. His Dad would have walked through fire for him. Instead, the boy chose this. No hints, no warnings, no nothing. Just hell for a family that had already been there/done that when they lost another child to a speeding pizza delivery truck before this one was born.
> 
> You're right I don't understand. I never will.



Damn contrary, pretty much. 

I'm sorry it's so painful for you.


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## Renaissance Woman (Jan 11, 2008)

I'm overwhelmed by the number of honest responses here. Thank you all for your courage in sharing these painful experiences.


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## Friday (Jan 11, 2008)

I feel the need to explain something about why I am so militantly angry with those that commit suicide. The suicide rates are climbing. I think that the fact that it doesn't seem to carry the taboo that it used to is contributing to that. More and more people, people that aren't necessarily even deeply depressed, seem to look at it as a reasonable option to not dealing with life. I think if more people were exposed to the absolute havoc it wreaks on those they leave behind they might have second thoughts, and hopefully third, fourth and fifth thoughts. It doesn't solve anything, just multiplies the problems and hands them to others in most cases. 

My first close experience with suicide was in high school when some friends' mother committed suicide while the boys were at school. They were never the same again and in fact the youngest of the three committed suicide himself 25 years later while his kids played out in the yard. I know that the fact his Mom had done the same thing (his little sister was home and followed her father into the woods and saw her mother still struggling for breath like Ella's brother) played in to why he thought it was an option. We had even talked about it when I ran into him at a bar we were shooting darts at a few years before he died. If my being harsh makes even one person think twice before doing something like this to the people that love them, then I don't care how many other people think I'm a horrible person. I wish that I had been harder on Timmy or at least told my Mom who had kind of been a mother figure for him and his brothers after his mom died. Maybe he would have listened.

And now I watch the obits in the paper, terrified that I will see his son or daughter there.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 11, 2008)

You've made your point.

But I can also see Barb's and TraciJo's points, which are that this is not all black and white.

Self preservation is the most basic of biological instincts. People don't go around killing themselves for no reason and I'm sure a million times more people think about it and can't go through with it than actually do it.

Over and over again you've railed at people who are selfish and mean enough to take their own lives without seeming to care about what gets them to that point. You, and others, have even given sort of a pass to somebody who kills themselves if they suffer from a terminal illness. Well, depression can be just as debilitating and painful as any other chronic illness that robs a sufferer of his or her quality of life. 

It's the easiest thing in the world when it's not your life and not your hurt to say "just live through it." Candidly I think your attitude is breathtakingly selfish because all you seem to care about is how you feel.


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## Risible (Jan 11, 2008)

liz (di-va) said:


> Nobody asked me, but I wanna say:
> 
> This is an incredibly sensitive, inflammatory, upsetting, personal, emotional and complicated subject. I think people are being very brave sharing their own experiences and heartbreak here and don't think you can get on anybody for their feelings about it. I mean...RW wanted to know what people's experiences were with suicide--this is what they look like, whether they 'should' or not. I don't think you can, with this experience especially, know what things are like for anybody else. It seems a little pandora's box to get into finger-pointing (even the mildest, most abstract) of any kind. Maybe it should just stay an experiential thread, not a discussion-based one? Or I mean...just a place to post, not to comment?
> 
> ...



I like to think that the Health forum, one of the forums that I moderate, can be a place where people can ask for advice and share their sometimes very personal experience in a neutral zone, rather than starting a debate, escalating to an argument, escalating to personal attacks.

I'm listening to you, Liz, and I agree.


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## Ernest Nagel (Jan 11, 2008)

liz (di-va) said:


> Nobody asked me, but I wanna say:
> 
> This is an incredibly sensitive, inflammatory, upsetting, personal, emotional and complicated subject. I think people are being very brave sharing their own experiences and heartbreak here and don't think you can get on anybody for their feelings about it. I mean...RW wanted to know what people's experiences were with suicide--this is what they look like, whether they 'should' or not. I don't think you can, with this experience especially, know what things are like for anybody else. It seems a little pandora's box to get into finger-pointing (even the mildest, most abstract) of any kind. Maybe it should just stay an experiential thread, not a discussion-based one? Or I mean...just a place to post, not to comment?
> 
> ...



Liz, first I concur completely with everything you've said. I'd just like for us to consider that there may be two separate Pandora's boxes here? I don't condone or recommend it, but adult suicide seems a little to me like sex, in that what we consider OK among consenting adults is clearly inappropriate for teens/adolescents.

Teen suicide is now their 3rd leading cause of death and that's probably grossly underreported due to many coroners and law enforcement officers wishing to spare the families feelings. The issue is so thorny that very few teachers, juvenile corrections officers, social workers or anyone else in the loop to interdict, especially parents, are fully acquainted and prepared to deal with the subject. Drug use may kill you (but it rarely does). Unprotected sex can have its' untoward consequences. Those two subjects have no shortage of education and training programs. I think D.A.R.E. alone is funded to the tune of $1B+ per year while having been proven hugely ineffectual. How many here know, without looking them up, the warning signs for teen suicide?

I'm willing to leave the conversation re adult suicide completely in abeyance, if necessary, in order to focus much needed resources on the teen suicide epidemic. Teen suicides are almost always a plea for love and/or attention. They CAN be prevented in _most_ cases. A brain not yet fully formed, awash in hormones and societal pressures can and should be protected from self-destructive impulses. In order for that to happen I think there has to be some agreement that we're dealing with two completely separate issues?


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## Friday (Jan 11, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> It's the easiest thing in the world when it's not your life and not your hurt to say "just live through it." Candidly I think your attitude is breathtakingly selfish because all you seem to care about is how you feel.



Well, the glaring error in your judgement of my sins is that it's my feelings I'm concerned with. I've never been directly touched by suicide and it's the feelings of the survivors that I've known that I grieve for. And strangely enough, not a single one of them has ever said 'Oh I'm so glad <fitb> is at peace now.', rather they all cry 'How could s/he do this to us.', and several other things that would probably really piss you off. Guess all those Moms and Dads, children and siblings, friends and spouses are just breathtakingly selfish too.


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## Jane (Jan 11, 2008)

Suicide is often attempted and successfully completed NOT when the person is depressed, but when their anxiety level is through the roof.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 11, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> But I can also see Barb's and TraciJo's points, which are that this is not all black and white.



The point that I was trying to make about suicidal ideation is that it is an extremely selfish state of mind, not taking into account the agony of the people left behind. Or, in my case, left in a prolonged state of suspended animation, just waiting helplessly for the worst to happen. 

After many years of dealing with him, I have come to believe that my brother is *incapable* of empathy. His depression, personality disorder, and prolonged heavy abuse of drugs & alcohol have all combined to render him blindingly, enormously self-centered. When I see him, he talks only of his own issues, his own struggles, his own this & that & the other. He takes no interest in me, our family, or how we might feel about his lifestyle. For a long time, this made me angry. I came to understand though ... it isn't that he doesn't want to understand or connect emotionally. He can't. He just ... can't. 

His situation is very different from many of the stories that have been shared here. One way in which I do believe they all relate, though: people who suffer from *major depression* *are* selfish. That is the nature of the illness. It narrows perspective, and renders those who suffer from it mostly incapable of dealing with anything other than just getting through the day. The father who puts a gun to his head isn't thinking about the mess he's going to leave behind for his wife & children to possibly witness/clean up. He's thinking about ending his own suffering. 

If my brother does one day follow through on his constant threats (or succumbs to his alcoholism, the slower version of suicide) I won't "blame" him. But I sure do understand the point that Friday raised, and I empathize with her anger. It's ... heartrending, the horror that is left behind for the survivors to deal with. They are entitled to their grief, agony, and yes ... anger.


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## Jane (Jan 11, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> After many years of dealing with him, I have come to believe that my brother is *incapable* of empathy. His depression, personality disorder, and prolonged heavy abuse of drugs & alcohol have all combined to render him blindingly, enormously self-centered. When I see him, he talks only of his own issues, his own struggles, his own this & that & the other. He takes no interest in me, our family, or how we might feel about his lifestyle. For a long time, this made me angry. I came to understand though ... it isn't that he doesn't want to understand or connect emotionally. He can't. He just ... can't.




If I had a nickle for everyone in my life.....and that really worries me. Like, WHY? Why am I drawn to such self-centered people?


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 12, 2008)

Such a brave, brave thread. My thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences, their feelings, and their "truth" in such a respectful and caring way. 

My experience with suicide is that I've lost two good high school friends to suicide in the last three years. Both were men I admired greatly, one I dated in high school and loved deeply, and other was a fellow honor student who went on to become a high school principal here in town and who touched the lives of many. 

My ex boyfriend ended his life because he had a lifetime of health problems and just couldn't handle it anymore. He took an overdose of heart medicine and died -- eventually, after days on life support with his organs shutting down one by one. (I hope to God he wasn't conscious during any of that). I feel so badly because we were fairly close, and he knew I was a nurse and maybe I could have helped him. But he never reached out -- not to his wife, his family, his friends, or to me. I still miss him, and sometimes I think I see him driving down the street or in a store, but no, it's another sweet, chubby bearded guy. It just seems so pointless, and he ended up leaving a wife and two step children, not to mention a family that relied on him to be the rock. His parents -- aging, and very sick themselves -- are devastated. He was always so concerned about doing the right thing, about not being a burden, and had a hard time expressing himself and his needs, one of the reasons we ended up breaking up in high school.

My other friend who died ended up killing himself as a result of being molested by a Catholic priest. He was molested in high school and was never able to get over it. He went on to marry, have children, and become an amazing educator and eventually the principal of a high school here. He was well regarded and admired, a terrific guy loved by many -- adults and children alike. He ended his own life because the pain of the molestation (and the Catholic church's poor record in addressing the issue) was too much. As a result there are lots of us here who are worse off because he was such a positive influence on many people's lives.

I wish both of these wonderful men had been able to seek help for their depression. They left the world a worse place because they're not in it. But more than that I'm so sad for the pain they must have endured that led them to decide that ending their life was the best option.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jan 12, 2008)

Reading through this thread, just felt the need to add that not all suicide attempts are "cries for help". When I was in my depression and having daily thoughts of it, I wasn't sharing it much. Other than a few convos with the husband, whom I think SHOULD have wondered what in the world was going on, I told no one. I waited until my vehicle was emptied of passengers and pulled over to cry, I waited until I was alone to breakdown, all my strangest behaviors where while I was alone. 
Looking back on that time, I was very vulnerable/susceptible to people more than I ordinarily am. More likely to do things recklessly/irresponsibly/out of the ordinary. One of the main reasons I didn't drive myself into a pole? Why I didn't attempt it, only thought about it? I wanted to get it right the first time. No attempts failed......no ending up paralyzed, no people knowing I wanted to die. I was thinking of a way to end it totally the first time- no questions asked. A way that wasn't painful or risked surviving. I didn't want attention for it........I didn't seek help (like I should have). There is mental illness in my family and I'm fully aware of the stigma attached to it. I'm fully aware that going someplace and telling them I was suicidal might have social services in my home trying to take my child (then I probably would have just killed myself, to be honest). I hated myself so badly, I really felt she would have been better off without me. A lot the conversations with my ex husband was to tell him "what to do", the best way to raise our daughter without me. In retrospect, I can see the ridiculousness......even the selfishness of it all. She wouldn't be better off without me. I just couldn't perceive that at the time in the midst of the depression and anguish. 
On top of all that, my older sister was still alive at that time, in remission from breast cancer. She was struggling so hard to hold onto life....I suppose I was battling my own illness simultaneously but never told her how I often thought about dying. Before she died, that movie Titanic came out with it's strong message about living life to the fullest.....she really liked that movie and what it had conveyed about the beauty of life. I'm glad I was around to catch it, too 
Also, I really had no idea how to acquire help for my depression. I just "dealt" with it. I'm sure I am not the only person this way.


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## GenericGeek (Jan 14, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> Such a brave, brave thread. My thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences, their feelings, and their "truth" in such a respectful and caring way.
> 
> My experience with suicide is that I've lost two good high school friends to suicide in the last three years. Both were men I admired greatly, one I dated in high school and loved deeply, and other was a fellow honor student who went on to become a high school principal here in town and who touched the lives of many.
> 
> ...



Wow... So much pain!

If only "putting an end to it all" really could be relied upon to *really *put an end to it all. But it doesn't. The pain just keeps going, reverberating throughout the karmic ether... 

Prayers for the departed & their survivors!


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## ekmanifest (Jan 14, 2008)

Wow. What an amazing thread to read - thanks to everyone who has shared their stories. Other than one close friend, I have not come across any other people who have experienced suicides in their life. I had several friends from high school who killed themselves, but the one that I had so much guilt and angst about was my beloved grandfather, who killed himself five years ago. I forgave him right away, not so much with myself, for hearing his pain and not being able to handle it. I've held a lot of shame and guilt about the people in my life who have committed suicide, and just reading this thread, loosens up that knot a bit.


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## GWARrior (Jan 14, 2008)

Down the street from me is a woman whose elderly father lived with her for a while. He and my dad became friends, after my dad did some work on their house. We then found out that the poor dude had run off and killed himself in a hospital parking lot. I think his wife had died a few years earlier and he wasnt dealing very well.

I didnt really know him, but it was still upsetting to hear.


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## Littleghost (Jan 14, 2008)

Friday said:


> I've had both people who used the threat of suicide to get what they want and people who have tried (some failed and some succeeded) in my life.
> 
> *Intellectually* I realize that a person who wants to commit suicide is often in so much emotional pain that they see it as the only way to make the pain stop. The concept of what their actions will do to the people they love and care about isn't something they can grasp when in that dark place.
> 
> ...



Although I DON'T accept/condone/endorse the concept of suicide, I will say this: I find the statement that 'the person who commits or attempts suicide is selfish or cowardly' pretty selfish and oblivious in itself. It's a cheap, pat answer that seems to be given out by people who haven't really experienced such depression, or worse, from people who have, but deny empathy for "brothers-in-arms."

Every person's situation for how they come to that last resort (and in many cases it is a last resort) is different. For hypothetical's sake, what IF no one in the person's life really cares about them? Who's going quickly befriend a screwed-up, depressing person? Aside from social workers, I can't imagine many. And in their screwed-up thoughts, a lot of times suicidals aren't thinking of themselves, but of others. They don't want to be a burden or a problem for others. *"Maybe everyone would be better off without me."* It's a far too common expression to be dismissed lightly.

And even in the depths of depression, death isn't necessarily the warm comfy bed that the straw-man argument paint it to be. People considering suicide can still be terrified of death, but see it as a possible lesser of two evils. There aren't any easy solutions to things especially when they get that bad, and sometimes people get damn tired of all the struggle.

I can understand why people can say the things they do about suicide, but I don't think it always helps. Potential suicidals are in a precarious position, and it's just possible that in their zeal to condemn a decision in order to help, others may wind up condemning the person. Suicide is something that people sometimes has to be coaxed away, not shoved.


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## southernfa (Jan 14, 2008)

Yes, I knew a suicide. It was sad. Although he had never talked about being suicidal, he had clearly had to deal with some stuff and seemed to be making progress out of a depression (that he was also getting professional treatment for). He was doing all the right things but apparently became a little isolated over summer. The family confirmed this posthumously and thanked us for our assistance such as it had been.

The previous comments about suicide coming from a very small, dark psychological space seem accurate. It is tragic that people succumb to this state when it is ultimately and fundamentally untrue. 
Unfair, selfish, deserving of anger? No, not really, just tragically ignorant or deluded if you will.


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## Littleghost (Jan 14, 2008)

Sandie S-R said:


> I think that is a tad unfair. No one here said anything like "selfish prick".
> 
> But you have to understand, suicide is selfish. Not selfish in a mean "I'm trying to hurt you" way. But selfish in a "I can't see anything beyond my own pain" way.
> 
> There is no question that the person who is contemplating suicide is in need of support and possibly Psychiatric or emotional help. That is a given.



Literally anything can be argued as selfish though. It's a moot point. There was another student in my philosophy class that was terribly adept at playing the devil's advocate of what was selfish; he didn't force it either, you would just realize it. And it also made me realize some very important things about viewpoints and perspectives.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 14, 2008)

If you don't care about yourself, why would you care about the feeling's of someone else? 

I hope to dog that the people that don't understand depression and suicidal thoughts never enter that realm themselves, it's a torture chamber.

No one wins here.


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## bexy (Jan 14, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> If you don't care about yourself, why would you care about the feeling's of someone else?
> 
> I hope to dog that the people that don't understand depression and suicidal thoughts never enter that realm themselves, it's a torture chamber.
> 
> No one wins here.



*in that everyones depression or mental health difficulties are different, i want to add that when i am at my lowest, i dont care about myself. i dont eat, sleep, wash, go out, i barely speak.
HOWEVER i do make sure my darling boyfriend eats, gets to sleep as he works long hours, run him baths after 12 hour shifts etc. which is hard yes, when u can barely be arsed to move. 
but in my eyes he's the most important person in the world and i will always do my best to look after and protect him. and he is the exact reason that no matter what i feel about myself, even if and when i feel useless, guilty and general of no importance, he is always, always on my mind. and that is the exact reason i know i will never try to harm myself again as what i would leave him behind would be horrific.*


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## Littleghost (Jan 14, 2008)

bexylicious said:


> *in that everyones depression or mental health difficulties are different, i want to add that when i am at my lowest, i dont care about myself. i dont eat, sleep, wash, go out, i barely speak.
> HOWEVER i do make sure my darling boyfriend eats, gets to sleep as he works long hours, run him baths after 12 hour shifts etc. which is hard yes, when u can barely be arsed to move.
> but in my eyes he's the most important person in the world and i will always do my best to look after and protect him. and he is the exact reason that no matter what i feel about myself, even if and when i feel useless, guilty and general of no importance, he is always, always on my mind. and that is the exact reason i know i will never try to harm myself again as what i would leave him behind would be horrific.*



She's got it.


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## Littleghost (Jan 14, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> If you don't care about yourself, why would you care about the feeling's of someone else?
> 
> I hope to dog that the people that don't understand depression and suicidal thoughts never enter that realm themselves, it's a torture chamber.
> 
> No one wins here.



It's hard enough to understand such a situation when people make the assumption of selfishness.
You're expecting suicidal people to be rational???


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## Surlysomething (Jan 15, 2008)

Littleghost said:


> It's hard enough to understand such a situation when people make the assumption of selfishness.
> You're expecting suicidal people to be rational???


 

Umm no. That was my point.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 15, 2008)

bexylicious said:


> *in that everyones depression or mental health difficulties are different, i want to add that when i am at my lowest, i dont care about myself. i dont eat, sleep, wash, go out, i barely speak.*
> *HOWEVER i do make sure my darling boyfriend eats, gets to sleep as he works long hours, run him baths after 12 hour shifts etc. which is hard yes, when u can barely be arsed to move. *
> *but in my eyes he's the most important person in the world and i will always do my best to look after and protect him. and he is the exact reason that no matter what i feel about myself, even if and when i feel useless, guilty and general of no importance, he is always, always on my mind. and that is the exact reason i know i will never try to harm myself again as what i would leave him behind would be horrific.*


 

Everyone has their own way of getting through it..i'm glad you put one foot in front of the other, depression is a rough road. 

I was talking specifically about suicide and how when it gets so bad and you can't handle it anymore there's not a lot that will stop a person. 

You have a reason not to. Actually, you have a bajillion, but one special person that makes it that much more important to live.


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## bexy (Jan 15, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> Everyone has their own way of getting through it..i'm glad you put one foot in front of the other, depression is a rough road.
> 
> I was talking specifically about suicide and how when it gets so bad and you can't handle it anymore there's not a lot that will stop a person.
> 
> You have a reason not to. Actually, you have a bajillion, but one special person that makes it that much more important to live.



*totally and i totally get what ur saying. of one of the 2 occasions i tried it i will admit i didnt care about anyone or what they thought, but that was the people in my life at the time. the only sorrow i felt then was that it hadnt worked.

NOW i know that even though yes sometimes i do still get these "bad thoughts" especially atm as i am changing my meds, i KNOW deep down i wont ever act on them because of my cutie, and i can see now that the way i acted before was, in my eyes, selfish. but thats only my opinion and my way of assuring myself i wont ever do it again. some people dont have what i have with my cutie, or even if they do they cannot see it in order for it to help them.*


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## Littleghost (Jan 15, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> Umm no. That was my point.



Well, then what's the problem? If you're not rational, you can easily care about others without caring about yourself.


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## Jane (Jan 15, 2008)

Littleghost said:


> Well, then what's the problem? If you're not rational, you can easily care about others without caring about yourself.



Some of us have not chosen to share our stories on this thread.

Understand, sometimes, YES it is the most selfish act imaginable.


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## Surlysomething (Jan 15, 2008)

Littleghost said:


> Well, then what's the problem? If you're not rational, you can easily care about others without caring about yourself.




Sorry, you're not making any sense to me.


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## fatgirlflyin (Jan 15, 2008)

Renaissance Woman said:


> How bad is suicide, really? That's what I want to find out. If a friend/loved one has tried it or succeeded, I want to hear from you. How did you react at the time? How are you now that some time has passed? Is there any part of you that is at least happy they're not suffering anymore? If you've had a failed attempt yourself, how do you feel about it now?
> 
> I have no idea if this thread will work. I realize it's a subject that probably not a lot of people will want to talk about. Also, I'm NOT looking for a bunch of "don't do it" posts and links to the samaritans. I'm looking for how the process affects everyone. Thanks.




This was the initial question. I answered it with My experiences and MY feelings which was what Barb asked for. I feel that my brother took the cowardly way out, he didn't ask for help, he didn't let anyone know he was hurting and he chose to end his life in a place where his 2 year old daughter would end up seeing him. I love my brother but those feelings are mine and you simply can't take those feelings away from me. 



Littleghost said:


> Although I DON'T accept/condone/endorse the concept of suicide, I will say this: I find the statement that 'the person who commits or attempts suicide is selfish or cowardly' pretty selfish and oblivious in itself. It's a cheap, pat answer that seems to be given out by people who haven't really experienced such depression, or worse, from people who have, but deny empathy for "brothers-in-arms."


 
Its true that I've never experienced depression so deep that I've tried to end my own life, but I've got many things and many people to live for. Lots of people who kill themselves do. Not all people who take their own lives do so because they have no one that loves them or no one that will help them climb out of the depths of despair that they find themselves in. 

I'm entitled to my feelings whether anyone agrees with them or not, they were asked for and I shared them. Do I have empathy for whatever it was that my brother was going through? No, I don't. That could be from anger towards him that I still carry around, I dont know. I just know that he had lots of people that would have moved mountains to help him if he had just asked. And you know as horrible as it sounds if he wanted to kill himself I would have been less angry if he'd done it where his little baby girl hadn't been able to find him. Can you imagine growing up with your only memory of your father being of him dying on the couch?


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## Littleghost (Jan 15, 2008)

Surlysomething said:


> Sorry, you're not making any sense to me.



Neither are you.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 16, 2008)

I'm a little late weighing in on this, but, fortunately, I've never known anyone who successfully committed suicide.... though that's not to say none have tried.

I've got at least one friend who's a known cutter. I don't really know how suicidal she is or has been, or if she was into it for the natural bio-chemical "high".

I've got another friend whose life to this point has been extremely odd and not one anybody should be able to empathize with, period. She has claimed to contemplate suicide regularly, almost like a matter of professional interest. Her circumstances, in my opinion, put her quite beyond long-term help, so it's mostly a day-to-day matter of whether life is worth it to her, I suppose.

My sister has purportedly attempted on herself twice, although I don't know how serious the attempts really were. I can't help but think they were more cries for attention than anything else, and a part of me resents this as she's the better child in my family (as far as achievement is concerned - better grades, better college, more promising future, etc.). Definitely a little loose at the hinges, and that's coming from someone no one he deals with regularly will ever consider normal. Suffice to say, my sister has been through all manner of psychiatric stuff since, and is currently on at least two meds, IIRC, related to her apparent depression.

Myself... Well, I have been quite depressed in the past, back in middle school and early high school. Probably badly enough to hit clinical depression levels, though I made certain to never get referred for therapy, medicinal or otherwise, because I adamantly refused that kind of existence. I have a deep, personal hatred of suicide, because I've developed a fairly strong respect for life, and don't agree with people taking their own on a whim. That said, I've contemplated suicide once, that I can recall, although I wasn't contemplating it *as* suicide, if that makes any sense. I didn't approach it obliquely - I was honestly, for the moment, curious about how it would feel to plunge the sharp, 2.5" long folding utility knife I have sitting within arm's reach on my desk, into my heart. What would the cold steel feel like in my flesh? How would it feel to die? Etc. Professional curiousity. I'd sooner change lifestyles than kill myself.


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## Littleghost (Jan 16, 2008)

Jane said:


> Some of us have not chosen to share our stories on this thread.
> 
> Understand, sometimes, YES it is the most selfish act imaginable.



I'm fully aware that every situation is different. Which is what I was actually saying. But apparently I'm being too volatile by considering more than one side of the situation. And no, that's not sarcasm.



Ella Bella said:


> Its true that I've never experienced depression so deep that I've tried to end my own life, but I've got many things and many people to live for. Lots of people who kill themselves do. Not all people who take their own lives do so because they have no one that loves them or no one that will help them climb out of the depths of despair that they find themselves in.
> 
> I'm entitled to my feelings whether anyone agrees with them or not, they were asked for and I shared them. Do I have empathy for whatever it was that my brother was going through? No, I don't. That could be from anger towards him that I still carry around, I dont know. I just know that he had lots of people that would have moved mountains to help him if he had just asked. And you know as horrible as it sounds if he wanted to kill himself I would have been less angry if he'd done it where his little baby girl hadn't been able to find him. Can you imagine growing up with your only memory of your father being of him dying on the couch?


Where did I personally attack your statement? All I did was express my sentiment that there are always different situations and perspectives to consider, especially in such a sensitive subject. But apparently it's too sensitive to say anything besides the mutual attitude. I need to get off this thread, then.


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## LillyBBBW (Jan 16, 2008)

Back in High School there was someone who committed suicide every year. Of them all I knew three and this was only in passing.


The first was a Varsity jock who was a smart alek with a short temper. He always farted around in class and was a shit to the teachers. One day he got drunk and drove his car at maximum speed around a winding road in the wee hours. They say he just took his hands off the wheel and ruled it a suicide.
The second one was a former boyfriend of my best freind. She was crazy about him and he finally asked her out only to dump her a few weeks later. She was devastated and we were all mad at him 'cause she dumped a nice guy to be with him. He had a lot of problems, was working a few jobs and from what I hear he had inattentive parents and was a primary caretaker in the family. One day on the way home from work he pulled over to the side of the road, climbed in the back of his car and went to sleep with the motor running. They say he poked holes in the back seat of the car and ruled his death a suicide. He left a few notes and in one he mentioned my friend saying that he loved her. He messed her mind up.
The third was another troubled guy. He was always raising cane and getting into trouble. Very rough, always into fights - a fearsome dude who pulled horrible pranks and got into loads of trouble. He was selling drugs and got caught in a sting operation selling drugs to Junior High students a few months before graduation. The word on the street was that he was screwed, they were looking to nail him to the wall as an example and his dad was trying to get him into the military to avoid going to prison. During the summer, days before a court appearance, he snorted a crap load of cocaine, put a loaded pistol to his head and pulled the trigger.

I only knew these folks in passing and had nothing to do with it but I felt this sense of loss, like maybe I could have done something or would have liked the chance to try. Silly I guess when you think of it but I always think maybe if I knew them or could have talked to them maybe it would have helped. Suicide inflicts so much far reaching pain and no one really gets to have a say. They won't let anyone in and other than Samaritans I don't know that there is any other resource for a person to turn to to get tangible help when they no longer have the strength to go on. Can you check yourself into a hospital, a safe house, a sanctuary withouth the threat of losing your job or having it turn up on a record that will be used against you when applying for anything? Can you take advantage of it if you are up on charges and facing lifetime imprisonment? What can I do if someone comes to me and says, "I want to commit suicide and I need help." Who do I call? How can I help them? In a suicide situation those left behind don't really get any say in it.

Rambling thoughts.


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## imfree (Jan 16, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Reading through this thread, just felt the need to add that not all suicide attempts are "cries for help". When I was in my depression and having daily thoughts of it, I wasn't sharing it much. Other than a few convos with the husband, whom I think SHOULD have wondered what in the world was going on, I told no one.............snipped..............
> 
> On top of all that, my older sister was still alive at that time, in remission from breast cancer. She was struggling so hard to hold onto life....I suppose I was battling my own illness simultaneously but never told her how I often thought about dying. Before she died, that movie Titanic came out with it's strong message about living life to the fullest.....she really liked that movie and what it had conveyed about the beauty of life. I'm glad I was around to catch it, too  Also, I really had no idea how to acquire help for my depression. I just "dealt" with it. I'm sure I am not the only person this way.



You're not alone, Green Eyed Fairy. I had a very difficult time in school,
even as a "skinny kid", because I was clumsy and could not think or even
keep my "eye on the ball" whenever I was on my feet. I didn't know I was
hypoxic. I felt that I was good for absolutely nothing and by age 14 I became depressed and seriously contemplated suicide. That same year, I had a near-electrocution accident in which GOD, or if you will, fate, saved me from death by allowing my violent convulsing to break the flow of current through my body. I felt that I had been spared for a higher purpose than just myself.


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