# Blown Away by the Insight



## Dromond (Jun 30, 2013)

I was chatting with a friend tonight, and she said something that blew me away. It was something that gave me a new insight into women. Something that I thought I understood but really didn't.



Dro's Friend said:


> Being a woman is like being a country that is constantly protecting its borders while trying to maintain friendly relations with other countries.



I never thought about this in terms of having to constantly be a diplomat and negotiate every day of your life, because it's not something men have to worry about. Since the world is set up for men, and women are not nearly as prone to sexual assault as men are, simply existing is easy for men. Especially white men. But for women, they have to cope with dangers and be on guard in ways that are totally alien to men.

Wow.


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## loopytheone (Jun 30, 2013)

Hmm, that is a good metaphor for some women I am sure, but honestly I think that some women get obsessed about being different from men. As far as I am concerned I am a person, you are a person, my female friends are people, my male friends are people and gender pales in comparison to the difference between people's personalities and the way they see the world.


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## tankyguy (Jun 30, 2013)

It's also unfortunate how their (justified) defensive mentality sometimes twists women's perceptions.

A female acquaintance/co-worker has to walk home after dark, and you as a guy offer to escort her. You want to make sure she gets home safely. Depending on how well she knows you, all she hears is a guy trying to get her alone and find out where she lives.

I've been in such a situations. I even offered to put her in a cab and pay the fare, just for my own peace of mind. She refused. Later, after she got to know me a bit better, she explained that she was taught never to owe money to men she didn't know well "because you can't be sure what they want in return".


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## loopytheone (Jun 30, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> It's also unfortunate how their (justified) defensive mentality sometimes* twists women's perceptions*.
> 
> A female acquaintance/co-worker has to walk home after dark, and you as a guy offer to escort her. You want to make sure she gets home safely. Depending on how well she knows you, all she hears is a guy trying to get her alone and find out where she lives.
> 
> I've been in such a situations. I even offered to put her in a cab and pay the fare, just for my own peace of mind. She refused. Later, after she got to know me a bit better, she explained that she was taught never to owe money to men she didn't know well "because you can't be sure what they want in return".



How is that twisting our perceptions? Do you think it is a good idea to get into a car with a stranger, regardless of your gender? Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying but I don't like or agree with the concept that it is wrong of people to avoid getting in potentially dangerous situations regardless of their gender. My mother gave my brother the rollocking of his life when she found out he had been hitchhiking, I don't think it is a gender thing I think it is a common sense thing (which my brother unfortunately lacks: this is the same person that put his bed sheets in the oven to dry them).


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jun 30, 2013)

I think Dromond's friend has voiced the basic human condition: we are a social species and need each other, but other humans are also our worst enemies. Anyone who's worked in a large organization knows that there will always be people who want to take you down: some may want your job, while others may just not like your face -- or your gender, age, ethnic group, or size. Some of these people may attack you directly, while others may try to cut you down behind your back. The bottom line is that we all have to remain open to others, but at the same time we have to protect ourselves from them.


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## tankyguy (Jun 30, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> How is that twisting our perceptions? Do you think it is a good idea to get into a car with a stranger, regardless of your gender? Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying but I don't like or agree with the concept that it is wrong of people to avoid getting in potentially dangerous situations regardless of their gender. My mother gave my brother the rollocking of his life when she found out he had been hitchhiking, I don't think it is a gender thing I think it is a common sense thing (which my brother unfortunately lacks: this is the same person that put his bed sheets in the oven to dry them).



What I mean is that it's unfortunate that women have to be suspicious of a benevolent gesture from a man when she has no reason to suspect of sinister intentions. If I was a female co-worker who offered to walk together with her, would she have still refused? If she was a male co-worker, would he even care if I found out where he lived?

It's sad that women have to have their guard up and default to mistrusting men. Make no mistake, they absolutely _should_ be on their guard and their thinking is prudent and understandable. It's just unfortunate the world has to be that way.


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## superodalisque (Jun 30, 2013)

Dromond said:


> I was chatting with a friend tonight, and she said something that blew me away. It was something that gave me a new insight into women. Something that I thought I understood but really didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thank you for posting this and thank you for thinking enough of us to try putting yourself in our place. men like you make us worry just a bit less


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## superodalisque (Jun 30, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> What I mean is that it's unfortunate that women have to be suspicious of a benevolent gesture from a man when she has no reason to suspect of sinister intentions. If I was a female co-worker who offered to walk together with her, would she have still refused? If she was a male co-worker, would he even care if I found out where he lived?
> 
> It's sad that women have to have their guard up and default to mistrusting men. Make no mistake, they absolutely _should_ be on their guard and their thinking is prudent and understandable. It's just unfortunate the world has to be that way.



it doesn't really have to be that way. it is a choice. everything is. unfortunately we've chosen for society to be a dangerous violent place to a large extent.


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## Dromond (Jun 30, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> Hmm, that is a good metaphor for some women I am sure, but honestly I think that some women get obsessed about being different from men. As far as I am concerned I am a person, you are a person, my female friends are people, my male friends are people and gender pales in comparison to the difference between people's personalities and the way they see the world.



There certainly is a lot of truth to what you say, but women do have to be more careful than men. Statistically, men are more dangerous to women than women are to men. That's something you shouldn't ignore.


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## superodalisque (Jun 30, 2013)

i learned a lot about violence against women volunteering for CASA. i joined after a sweet little blonde 20 yr old girl that lived in my building was set on fire by her bf. before that i had only heard of things like that happening on the news. there were a lot of women there. there is never enough room to shelter the women who are being abused or stalked. a lot of them kept it a secret because they were embarrassed or didn't want to lose their jobs. you'd be shocked by how many together women are going through it. here is some info from the CDC:

*The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS)*[/B ]http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/index.html


On average, 24 people per minute are victims of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in the United States, based on a survey conducted in 2010. Over the course of a year, that equals more than 12 million women and men. Those numbers only tell part of the story—more than 1 million women are raped in a year and over 6 million women and men are victims of stalking in a year. These findings emphasize that sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence are important and widespread public health problems in the United States...

Among victims of intimate partner violence, about 1 in 4 women (24.3%) and 1 in 7 men (13.8%) have experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner (e.g., hit with a fist or something hard, beaten, slammed against something) at some point in their lifetime.




*Psychological 
Aggression by an 
Intimate Partner*
http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...port2010-a.pdf



Prevalence Among Women

Nearly half of all women in 
the United States (48.4% or 
approximately 57.6 million) have 
experienced at least one form 
of psychological aggression by 
an intimate partner during their 
lifetime, with 4 in 10 (40.3%) 
reporting some form of expressive aggression (e.g., their partner 
acted angry in a way that seemed 
dangerous, told them they were 
a loser or a failure, insulted or 
humiliated them), or some form 
of coercive control (41.1%) by an 
intimate partner (Table 4.9).


*Violence by an Intimate 
Partner*
http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...port2010-a.pdf


More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) 
and more than 1 in 4 men 
(28.5%) in the United States 
have experienced rape, physical 
violence, and/or stalking by an 
intimate partner in their lifetime.


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## HeavyDuty24 (Jul 4, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> she explained that she was taught never to owe money to men she didn't know well "because you can't be sure what they want in return".



Hmm i notice alot of women or people don't want to take money like that. Maybe it's because they were raised like that too. Just always also wondered this.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

HeavyDuty24 said:


> Hmm i notice alot of women or people don't want to take money like that. Maybe it's because they were raised like that too. Just always also wondered this.



women also get slut shamed a lot for taking any money from men as well -- by men and women.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

Dromond said:


> I was chatting with a friend tonight, and she said something that blew me away. It was something that gave me a new insight into women. Something that I thought I understood but really didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I never thought about this in terms of having to constantly be a diplomat and negotiate every day of your life, because it's not something men have to worry about.



^Speak for yourself mate.



> Since the world is set up for men, and women are not nearly as prone to sexual assault as men are, simply existing is easy for men. Especially white men. But for women, they have to cope with dangers and be on guard in ways that are totally alien to men.
> 
> Wow.



Men are many times more likely to be violently attacked than women, full stop.

That you are unaware of this, and presumably: you have never been attacked by strangers in the street, nor been thrown to the floor and had an asshole try to kick you to death, nor had to fight men who were trying to kick a friend to death, nor had a bottle smashed over your head etc. etc.... Consider yourself very lucky.

Personally: I am always "on guard", because life experience has taught me that not being on guard can result in savage, potentially disabling or fatal beatings. So I don't find your female friend's perspective to be particularly alien, at all.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> ^Speak for yourself mate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



may you have daughters


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## Dromond (Jul 4, 2013)

Yes Josie, we all know you are a men's rights activist.

For those unfamiliar with men's rights activism, read this.


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## AuntHen (Jul 4, 2013)

nevermind, it goes off on a tangent somewhat


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

Dromond said:


> Yes Josie, we all know you are a men's rights activist.
> 
> For those unfamiliar with men's rights activism, read this.



:doh:

Lol. 

I just pointed out that your blindness to other people's suffering, and those people's need to live a life on "alert": is NOT a function of sex. 

Your mistake in believing that is just a projection of your own unusually lucky existence.

Apparently being told that other men and boys do not have the same fortunate life experiences as you is just too much for your ego to bear. So, you resort to "othering" and ad hominem, using a joke website no less. :doh:

(I do not consider myself a "Men's Rights Activist", btw, as that label has been appropriated by some pretty unpleasant and/or deluded people.)


By the way? all those examples of violence I cited above^^ are just SOME of the violent incidences that I, personally, have actually been a victim of. 
There's more, but it would take too long to list all of the shit I've been through, and some of it I'm just NOT going to talk about here: in a forum where you and others have made it abundantly clear that bad things that happen to men and boys are to be mocked. 
Because hey, it's way too personal, and I won't have your insults added to my injury.

So, stepping back from the personal, statistically: 

- Men are three times more likely to be murdered than women.

- 4.2% of men are victims of violent crime, compared to 1.8% of women.
- 2.2% of men have been violently attacked by a stranger, compared to 0.6% of women

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116347/hosb1210.pdf

- At least 1 in 6 men experience some form of sexual abuse before the age of 18 (references here):
http://1in6.org/the-1-in-6-statistic/

Vast swathes of men, as well as women, walk around on "alert". 
You've just led a charmed life Dromond, or maybe you don't get out much, or both.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> may you have daughters



Hahahahahaha!

Zoooooom.

^^ that was the point going waaaaay over your head.

Go back up thread and re-read "intimate partner" stats you yourself posted - you'll see that male victims are listed there too. And those stats ignore the majority of violence - stranger violence, where men are the majority of victims.


Linked: 

I was talking to a male relative just yesterday, and he told me about two married people he knew from school in our home town. The husband suffered years of horrible domestic violence at the hands of his wife (among other things she smashed a heavy glass ashtray over his head). Eventually she stabbed him in the chest seven times, killing him outright. Despite the lack of any sign of a struggle on the part of the victim* the killer only got 18months - by claiming battered wife syndrome**.

(*the prosecution highlighted that there were no "defensive wounds" on his arms, the attack was so quick.

**see also: over your side of the pond the even more extreme case of the murderer Jodi Arias, who tried for this same defence, despite the insane level of ultra-violence she meted out on her victim)


Take home point: being a man is not "safer". Victims of violence come from both sexes.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I think Dromond's friend has voiced the basic human condition: we are a social species and need each other, but other humans are also our worst enemies. Anyone who's worked in a large organization knows that there will always be people who want to take you down: some may want your job, while others may just not like your face -- or your gender, age, ethnic group, or size. Some of these people may attack you directly, while others may try to cut you down behind your back. The bottom line is that we all have to remain open to others, but at the same time we have to protect ourselves from them.



Basically, yes.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

loopytheone said:


> Hmm, that is a good metaphor for some women I am sure, but honestly I think that some women get obsessed about being different from men. As far as I am concerned I am a person, you are a person, my female friends are people, my male friends are people and gender pales in comparison to the difference between people's personalities and the way they see the world.



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to loopytheone again.


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## tonynyc (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i learned a lot about violence against women volunteering for CASA. i joined after a sweet little blonde 20 yr old girl that lived in my building was set on fire by her bf. before that i had only heard of things like that happening on the news. there were a lot of women there. there is never enough room to shelter the women who are being abused or stalked. a lot of them kept it a secret because they were embarrassed or didn't want to lose their jobs. you'd be shocked by how many together women are going through it. here is some info from the CDC:
> 
> *The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS)*[/B ]http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/index.html
> 
> ...





joswitch said:


> :doh:
> 
> Lol.
> 
> ...



Hmmm... dueling statistics... time for an expert witness


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> Hmmm... dueling statistics... time for an expert witness



Thing is Tony - there is no disagreement between the stats posted by SuperO and me. The difference is in what people take from the stats (and their life experiences).

The stats clearly show that men are by far and away the majority of victims of violence in toto.
And that women are most of the victims in the subset of DV, with men being a large minority (UK Home Office victim stats breakdown 60% women to 40% men victims).

But: there is a fashionable tendency to ignore male victims of violence, see e.g. Dromond's attitude.

Personally I see victims of BOTH sexes (both in the stats and in RL).
I think it's important to: 
- Make people aware that regardless of your sex, you may be vulnerable to violence, and to be aware that applies to people you care about too.
- And beyond that, not to assume the experiences of other people are the same as yours.

That is all.


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## JulieD (Jul 4, 2013)

tonynyc said:


> Hmmm... dueling statistics... time for an expert witness



Maybe it simply depends on where you live... 

Also, I am willing to walk any female and/or male home. I have mace. And a rape whistle.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

JulieD said:


> Maybe it simply depends on where you live...
> 
> Also, I am willing to walk any female and/or male home. I have mace. And a rape whistle.



Maces are great mugger detterents  :


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## JulieD (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> Maces are great mugger detterents  :



I was talking about the pepper spray kind. The kind you have pictured I usually keep in my 'secret drawer'... maybe I should attach that to my keys too.


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## bigmac (Jul 4, 2013)

Dromond said:


> There certainly is a lot of truth to what you say, but women do have to be more careful than men. Statistically, men are more dangerous to women than women are to men. That's something you shouldn't ignore.



Yes, but women are more likely to actually use weapons in domestic disputes (especially knives in my experience).


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

Dromond said:


> I was chatting with a friend tonight, and she said something that blew me away. It was something that gave me a new insight into women. Something that I thought I understood but really didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i bet you really see now why we are so scared.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i bet you really see now why we are so scared.



What? what is it that you find "scary" about what has been said in this thread? Seriously.


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## bigmac (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> ...
> 
> Personally: I am always "on guard", because life experience has taught me that not being on guard can result in savage, potentially disabling or fatal beatings. So I don't find your female friend's perspective to be particularly alien, at all.



Where the hell do you hang out? I've lived and worked in some pretty dodgy places and have never once been accosted. I've walked through Harlem, Brixton, West Oakland, and Bedford Stuyvesant and never had a problem.


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## bigmac (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i bet you really see now why we are so scared.



There's no reason for the vast majority of women to be scared. We're living in the safest period ever known.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

http://dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/


*Domestic violence homicides
*
On average, more than three women and one man are murdered by their intimate partners in this country every day. In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner. Intimate partner homicides accounted for 30% of the murders of women and 5% percent of the murders of men.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003. Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.)

Most intimate partner homicides occur between spouses, though boyfriends/girlfriends have committed about the same number of homicides in recent years.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Intimate Partner Violence in the U.S. 1993-2004, 2006.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Where the hell do you hang out? I've lived and worked in some pretty dodgy places and have never once been accosted. I've walked through Harlem, Brixton, West Oakland, and Bedford Stuyvesant and never had a problem.



I grew up in a smallish town in the North of England, I'm back living in England again at the moment. I think USAians imagine we all live in Hobbiton or something, but (less-than-fatal) street violence is pretty routine in the UK. Somewhat less so since drink got so much more expensive.

All the violence I have experienced has been here. At home and in /around school / streets growing up, and in pubs / the streets as an adult.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> There's no reason for the vast majority of women to be scared. We're living in the safest period ever known.



agreed. there is no rule of thumb etc... anymore or police leaving the house when women are bloody and a guy has a swollen hand. they just leave when you were seen naked in the backyard in chains without investigating at all.


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## bigmac (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> I grew up in a smallish town in the North of England, I'm back living in England again at the moment. I think USAians imagine we all live in Hobbiton or something, but (less-than-fatal) street violence is pretty routine in the UK. Somewhat less so since drink got so much more expensive.
> 
> All the violence I have experienced has been here. At home and in /around school / streets growing up, and in pubs / the streets as an adult.



Interesting. The only time I ever saw cops chasing a suspect through the streets on foot was in Glasgow on a Friday evening.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> http://dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/
> 
> 
> *Domestic violence homicides
> ...



Are you answering my question with this quote?

I can see that yes, women are three times more likely to be murdered by their partner as men. And the DV murder stats break down as roughly 75:25, women:men victims (in the US, in 2000).

Do you do understand that what these stats also mean is:

In 2000, in the US, in total: 8,800 men were murdered vs. 4,157 women 
i.e. men were more than twice as likely to be murdered as women.

And a woman choosing not to have an intimate partner (statistically) reduces her risk of being murdered by 30%, while a man choosing not to have an intimate partner reduces his risk of being murdered by just 5%.

*I totally understand why some women feel the way Dromond's friend said in the OP, especially with regard to prospective partners - can you understand why some men also feel that way, in general?*


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> Thing is Tony - there is no disagreement between the stats posted by SuperO and me. The difference is in what people take from the stats (and their life experiences).
> 
> The stats clearly show that men are by far and away the majority of victims of violence in toto.
> And that women are most of the victims in the subset of DV, with men being a large minority (UK Home Office victim stats breakdown 60% women to 40% men victims).
> ...



also your stats are from the UK and mine are from the US


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Interesting. The only time I ever saw cops chasing a suspect through the streets on foot was in Glasgow on a Friday evening.



Lol. The amount of violence I've seen kick off when cops were notable by their absence, is legion.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> also your stats are from the UK and mine are from the US



That's true, but you'll see that broadly the same trends apply to the US as well, see the stats you posted re. US murder rates domestic and otherwise, and my comments on those numbers, above.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> Are you answering my question with this quote?
> 
> I can see that yes, women are three times more likely to be murdered by their partner as men. Do you do understand that what these stats also mean is:
> 
> ...




but most men are murdered by other men not by women. it's same sex murder. if you look at page as well you'll see that men are more apt to be murdered by and to murder strangers as well. but speaking of domestic partners here in the US a woman is still much more likely to be murdered by her male partner than to murder him because men still enact the vast majority of violence in this country period.


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## tankyguy (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> There's no reason for the vast majority of women to be scared. We're living in the safest period ever known.



1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.
Not safe enough.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/h...-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> That's true, but you'll see that broadly the same trends apply to the US as well, see the stats you posted re. US murder rates domestic and otherwise, and my comments on those numbers, above.



there is no doubt that men overall are the victims of more violence but they are also cause more of the violence here in the US.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

tankyguy said:


> 1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.
> Not safe enough.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/h...-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0



And 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18

http://1in6.org/

So, yeah, it might be the safEST period in human history, but it still ain't SAFE.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> but most men are murdered by other men not by women. it's same sex murder. if you look at page as well you'll see that men are more apt to be murdered by and to murder strangers as well. but speaking of domestic partners here in the US a woman is still much more likely to be murdered by her male partner than to murder him because men still enact the vast majority of violence in this country period.
> ......
> 
> there is no doubt that men overall are the victims of more violence but they are also cause more of the violence here in the US.



Do you understand that it is of zero comfort to a man who has been the victim of violence, or who shows (statistically justified) concern for his own safety that the evil thugs meting out the violence are statistically more likely to be men*? 

Do you understand that there is a difference between the man who murders and the man who is a murder victim?

Do you get that repeatedly telling *male victims* of violence that "men cause more violence than women" is implicit victim-blaming-by-association?

I understand why women are wary of men in general, particularly prospective initimate partners. 
Can you manage to see from the other perspective too?



(*N.B. Altho' most of the violence I have sufferd in my life has been from men / boys, when I was younger and smaller I also suffered violence from girls / women. e.g.: after one assault I had to be taken to get my head X-rayed to check my skull wasn't fractured.

My conclusions as to the common thread among violent perps? people who think they can perpetrate that violence and get away with it. This is closely tied into perceived power disparity, in that immediate moment.)


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> And 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18
> 
> http://1in6.org/
> 
> So, yeah, it might be the safEST period in human history, but it still ain't SAFE.



from what stats we have today most of the sexual abuse on boys is enacted by men so women aren't just frightened for themselves but also for their little boys-- and little girls.

i agree that we live in a culture of violence but world wide that is mainly controlled and instigated by men. they have to agree to stop it but whenever someone does they act as though the idea is emasculating and circumvent the whole thing. violence is a big reason we had prohibition here. it didn't work long term but it did decrease some of the domestic violence but it increased criminal violence.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> And 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18
> 
> http://1in6.org/
> 
> So, yeah, it might be the safEST period in human history, but it still ain't SAFE.



from what stats we have today most of the sexual abuse on boys is enacted by men so women aren't just frightened for themselves but also for their little boys-- and little girls.

i agree that we live in a culture of violence but world wide that is mainly controlled and instigated by men. they have to agree to stop it but whenever someone does they act as though the idea is emasculating and circumvent the whole thing. domestic violence is a big reason we had prohibition here. it didn't work long term but it did decrease some of the domestic violence but it increased criminal violence.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> Do you understand that it is of zero comfort to a man who has been the victim of violence, or who shows (statistically justified) concern for his own safety that the evil thugs meting out the violence are statistically more likely to be men?
> 
> Do you understand that there is a difference between the man who murders and the man who is a murder victim?
> 
> Do you get that repeatedly telling *male victims* of violence that "men cause more violence than women" is implicit victim blaming?



i understand that but did you note the discussion that was started. i worry for men too but it's not what we were discussing. and it's not as though women are the creators or instigators of most of the violence. men do have to take some political responsibility and community responsibility for what is happening. how can it be blaming the victim when most of the criminal element _are_ men? some of those men, politicians who start wars for money etc... are men. that would be called blaming the perpetrator.


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## Dromond (Jul 4, 2013)

Joswitch, you are way off topic. Please start a new thread if you want to discuss this from a man's perspective. I'm going to ask a moderator to either clean up this thread or split it off, depending on what they feel like doing.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> Yes, but women are more likely to actually use weapons in domestic disputes (especially knives in my experience).



i can see that due to them trying to equal the physical advantage that many men have but overall they still die much more often in those situations.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> from what stats we have today most of the sexual abuse on boys is enacted by men so women aren't just frightened for themselves but also for their little boys-- and little girls.



I'll need to see a citation of those stats, please.

From what I have read, afaik, statistically the people most likely to abuse children (without breaking out sexual abuse from the general umbrella of physical abuse) are in order of most-likely-to-perpetrate-abuse:
1 - the mother
2 - the mother's partner (not the father)
3 - the father



> i agree that we live in a culture of violence but world wide that is mainly controlled and instigated by men. they have to agree to stop it



No. Just no. Once again you are attempting to treat all men as a one thing. Some kind of universal "hive-mind". As to this assertion of yours that men must agree to stop violence. What do you think police and laws and courts and prisons are for? 

Also, why is it only up to men to stop violence when there are plenty of female perpetrators too? Certainly not as many as male perpetrators, but a very significant minority.



> but whenever someone does they act as though the idea is emasculating and circumvent the whole thing. violence is a big reason we had prohibition here. it didn't work long term but it did decrease some of the domestic violence but it increased criminal violence.



There's just too many unexamined, unsupported assertions in this last bit for me to even begin to address here.


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i understand that but did you note the discussion that was started. i worry for men too but it's not what we were discussing.



We were discussing how Dromond's life is so sheltered that he's blown away by the revelation that some people go through life "on alert".



> and it's not as though women are the creators or instigators of most of the violence.



Women are the perpetrators of a significant minority of violence. Again, just from the stats you posted, women are responsible for 25% of the DV murders in the US, you cannot ignore that.



> men do have to take some political responsibility and community responsibility for what is happening. how can it be blaming the victim when most of the criminal element _are_ men? some of those men, politicians who start wars for money etc... are men. that would be called blaming the perpetrator.



Asserting that men must take "community responsibility" IS blaming male victims of violence. It's pure sexism.

*I* am a man, and I am not responsible in any way shape or form for the actions of those men who chose to attack me. *I* am a man and I am not responsible for the murderous actions of a power elite who I have zero influence over. *I* am a man and my genitals do not magically link me to other people with the same genitals as me in any way shape or form. 

Again, you imagine "men" as some kind of hive-mind.
"Men" is just a shorthand way of saying "all the human beings with y-type genitals".


Do, please, stop trying to lump all men together, it's wrong and sexist.


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## AnnMarie (Jul 4, 2013)

Joswitch, please start a new thread if you feel you need a full blown discussion, rather then using this one. 

For everyone, attempt to remain on topic as much as natural course of discussion allows.


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## superodalisque (Jul 4, 2013)

joswitch said:


> I'll need to see a citation of those stats, please.
> 
> From what I have read, afaik, statistically the people most likely to abuse children (without breaking out sexual abuse from the general umbrella of physical abuse) are in order of most-likely-to-perpetrate-abuse:
> 1 - the mother
> ...



for the US:

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/component/content/article/410-child-sexual-abuse-i-an-overview

Among those known to have committed child sexual abuse, the vast majority are male. Among juvenile offenders, over 90 percent of known perpetrators are male.3,19


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## joswitch (Jul 4, 2013)

Dromond said:


> Joswitch, you are way off topic. Please start a new thread if you want to discuss this from a man's perspective. I'm going to ask a moderator to either clean up this thread or split it off, depending on what they feel like doing.



I am in no way "off topic". Everything in this thread is absolutely relevant to your OP, in which you asserted that going through life "on alert" was a feeling specific to women, and somehow "alien" to all men. 

I have addressed your error in universalising your own experience to all men, and provided stats to show why that's a really bad idea. i.e. I am bang ON TOPIC, you just dislike being shown to be wrong.

By all means take your complaints to a mod.


- Edited to add: Ok the mod has spoken, I'm outta here.


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## bigmac (Jul 4, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> i can see that due to them trying to equal the physical advantage that many men have but overall they still die much more often in those situations.



I didn't say they were good at using weapons -- and if you're not you'll just really antagonize the opposing party.

Interestingly its been my experience that females in lesbian relationships actually us weapons the most (the equalization argument doesn't really work in the same sex context). Also, for some reason gay guys don't seem to end up in domestic violence court (I've not had a single guy-on-guy DV case).


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## JulieD (Jul 4, 2013)

bigmac said:


> ....Also, for some reason gay guys don't seem to end up in domestic violence court (I've not had a single guy-on-guy DV case).



This is an easy one to figure out...its because most gay people are happy. Gay literary means happy. Now, I dont have any fancy statistics to prove my point here in the US or else where...but if you wait long enough, im sure someone will either discredit me or back me up... :happy:


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## Amaranthine (Jul 5, 2013)

The idea of constantly being on guard never particularly resonated with me. I've walked plenty of places on my own, at night even. And I've never had problems. When a man talks to me, I don't feel threatened. Men have made comments at me in passing. None have been worrisome. They're just compliments with no other action accompanied with them. 

Perhaps I'm just not cautious enough, but I feel as if it's superfluous and hugely assumptive to see men as predators or something. 

I tried to read through to see if it had been mentioned, and I didn't see it...

Yes, a large number of women experience some sort of sexual assault or abuse. But a great many aren't from random attacks. They're from someone the woman is very close to and trusts. Still, does that mean all men should be demonized? Of course not. It just means that women should be a bit more cautious when they don't think they have to be.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jul 5, 2013)

Amaranthine said:


> Perhaps I'm just not cautious enough, but I feel as if it's superfluous and hugely assumptive to see men as predators or something.



Yes, it is; and yes, you are. There are a lot of sick people around, and they don't all wear their underwear on their heads. Anyone you don't know well enough to trust completely is a _potential_ threat to you; it is prudent to be cautious even when you don't think you have to be. People can be devils, and people can be angels, and people can be both: one should not lose sight of our capacity for evil OR our capacity for good.


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## tankyguy (Jul 5, 2013)

Amaranthine said:


> Yes, a large number of women experience some sort of sexual assault or abuse. But a great many aren't from random attacks. They're from someone the woman is very close to and trusts. Still, does that mean all men should be demonized? Of course not. It just means that women should be a bit more cautious when they don't think they have to be.



It's a fine line, I think. Yes, a woman is probably statistically more likely to be assaulted by the seemingly nice and charismatic guy she felt comfortable enough to get drunk around. The fact is predatory men practice being charismatic and learn how to put women at ease in order to be better predators. Chad with the sparkling smile could be an utter monster and the twitchy guy in the fedora and mustache could be harmless. But you can never know for sure until you get to know either well.

I think that just means women should err on the side of caution with all guys. In the end, all you can really do is trust your gut and minimize risk. I'd rather a woman mistrust guys (including me) at first and be safe than the alternative.
My feelings < her personal safety.


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## ODFFA (Jul 5, 2013)

Amaranthine said:


> The idea of constantly being on guard never particularly resonated with me. I've walked plenty of places on my own, at night even. And I've never had problems. When a man talks to me, I don't feel threatened. Men have made comments at me in passing. None have been worrisome. They're just compliments with no other action accompanied with them.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just not cautious enough, but I feel as if it's superfluous and hugely assumptive to see men as predators or something.
> 
> ...



I agree completely about it being overkill to view men in general as predators. And I see how it's not particularly healthy for that to be one's go-to feeling about most males. I like to think of myself as quite a reasonable person, though I quite naturally lean towards idealism a lot of the time when pondering things like this.

BUT in practice, I have to confess, living in South Africa I very often take the rather cautious approach to men in my feelings and behaviours at first. I really try not to do this to the extent that it becomes discriminatory or hampers opportunities for positive/meaningful interaction. And if I get a compliment in passing, even a rather sexually motivated one, I like to view it as exactly that without assuming there are ominous intentions. I don't like coming at isolated situations in my life with some kind of generalisation; and at the same time, I haven't felt able to take my personal safety for granted. A lot of that does have to do with the context in which I grew up and have lived most of my life.

TL;DR: Sometimes in spite of myself, I identify quite a bit with what Dro's friend described.


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## superodalisque (Jul 5, 2013)

ODFFA said:


> I agree completely about it being overkill to view men in general as predators. And I see how it's not particularly healthy for that to be one's go-to feeling about most males. I like to think of myself as quite a reasonable person, though I quite naturally lean towards idealism a lot of the time when pondering things like this.
> 
> BUT in practice, I have to confess, living in South Africa I very often take the rather cautious approach to men in my feelings and behaviours at first. I really try not to do this to the extent that it becomes discriminatory or hampers opportunities for positive/meaningful interaction. And if I get a compliment in passing, even a rather sexually motivated one, I like to view it as exactly that without assuming there are ominous intentions. I don't like coming at isolated situations in my life with some kind of generalisation; and at the same time, I haven't felt able to take my personal safety for granted. A lot of that does have to do with the context in which I grew up and have lived most of my life.
> 
> TL;DR: Sometimes in spite of myself, I identify quite a bit with what Dro's friend described.




i used to feel exactly the same way when i was younger about being fair to other people then i started to realize the most important thing to do was to be fair to myself. and then i noted that people who actually cared about me wanted me to do that too.


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## Dromond (Jul 7, 2013)

I pointed my friend to this thread. She read it, and has a reply to share. It's a long one, but well worth reading.



Dro's Friend said:


> I do not think we all have to walk around on high alert, but all it takes is one bad judgement and you are dead. It can happen on a date, on a road trip, walking to the car, or walking in your building. But you (women) don't want to be judged as a bitch or scare off a potential person in your life, so you still try to remain friendly while still protecting yourself.
> 
> If you care to, read "The gift of fear" It is by a security guy who taught a class at our work about recognizing people who are potentially dangerous, both employees and people trying to enter. A great and true read. It changed the way I see things. I used to just do whatever and never have a sensor out at all. I would park in the back of parking lots, help people struggling with bags, meet people I just met at their house, etc. Then one day something happened that was potentially a really really bad thing. After it happened, the guy said to me "You know, this time it was ok. But you know, you didn't know that. If I was a bad person, you would not be having this conversation, you would be dead. Don't ever do that again" I never forgot that.
> 
> ...


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## superodalisque (Jul 7, 2013)

Dro, what your friend said really pins it down. tell her i said thank you. i used to like shopping at my local walmart at 2am but stopped when some guy i only returned a hello to na very non committal way followed me all the way to my home. goodness knows what would have happened if my nephew had not been visiting and i called for him. one guy also followed me home in broad day light from target. i never spoke to him. i saw him looking at me, but he did nothing unusual so i paid no attention. next thing i knew he had followed me to my house but there were people there. i lived alone at the time. then an ex's friend tried to rape me one night after an extremely platonic outing. the only reason he said he did not follow through is because we had mutual friends and he would get into trouble with them! it' scary out there and it's not our imaginations. i wasn't the suspicious type but i HAD to become more careful. i shouldn't have to watch my rear view mirror like i'm running from the CIA. i shouldn't have to hesitate about inviting long termed friends that i thought were safe into my home for a visit just because they are men. but unfortunately i do if i value my life and safety.


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## ODFFA (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> ...it's scary out there and it's not our imaginations...



This! 

I _very_ much appreciate your friend's contribution too, Dro :happy: So glad it made it onto the thread. Thanks for making it happen. 

I do still think there's a difference between being aware and living life in a rather paralysing state of fear. I'm not saying any of these posts display or promote such fear. They strike me as very reasonable. I'm just mentioning it. It seems a really fine line, though, and it can appear more or less blurred depending on one's own experiences and circumstances. 

I can't even begin to tell you how different it felt spending four years in England. I was still _aware_ of the necessity to try and avoid certain situations (it was pretty ingrained at that point) but I didn't spend nearly as much time worrying and catastrophising over my safety. That's such a 'normal' thing to do with the prevalence of crime over here, and I can see the harm it does socially and psychologically.

I still maintain, though, that if I do _have_ to err, I'd rather it be on the side of caution 

So, perhaps not "wimminz beware!" but certainly "wimminz, take care."


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## Dromond (Jul 8, 2013)

superodalisque said:


> Dro, what your friend said really pins it down. tell her i said thank you. i used to like shopping at my local walmart at 2am but stopped when some guy i only returned a hello to na very non committal way followed me all the way to my home. goodness knows what would have happened if my nephew had not been visiting and i called for him. one guy also followed me home in broad day light from target. i never spoke to him. i saw him looking at me, but he did nothing unusual so i paid no attention. next thing i knew he had followed me to my house but there were people there. i lived alone at the time. then an ex's friend tried to rape me one night after an extremely platonic outing. the only reason he said he did not follow through is because we had mutual friends and he would get into trouble with them! it' scary out there and it's not our imaginations. i wasn't the suspicious type but i HAD to become more careful. i shouldn't have to watch my rear view mirror like i'm running from the CIA. i shouldn't have to hesitate about inviting long termed friends that i thought were safe into my home for a visit just because they are men. but unfortunately i do if i value my life and safety.



I will pass along the thank yous. 

It's interesting you talked about the 2 AM Walmart run. I do that fairly regularly, as I'm a night person and have anxiety issues with large crowds of people. The local Walmart is always packed with shoppers and utterly insane during the day, which is likely to trigger panic attacks. Anyway, I've never feared for my safety on any of those overnight shopping runs. It's just another example of how women need to be more careful than men.


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