# Why "online FAs" miss out in real life



## Webmaster (Sep 23, 2007)

The other day I came across a post where a woman voiced ambivalence over online FAs. All those men pursue her in chat or on forums and compliment her, but in real life there is no one for her to go out with, lean on and rely on. She felt the difference between this online world and the real world was hard to take. Below is my response that I posted in the Dimensions Clubhouse but wanted to repeat here:

_That is very sad to read. As an average-sized FA I can only relate in part to the experience, of course, but there is probably the FA counterpart to it. Like when I attended my very first NAAFA Convention back in 1983 or so and finally felt safe and whole and happy. It was such a high for those five days that the real world afterwards seemed unreal, hostile and I didn't want to have any part of it, I wanted to go back to my family, my community.

Eventually I decided to make size acceptance my primary purpose in life. I continued my corporate career but more and more spent time on size acceptance issues and projects. It made no sense to me to want one thing and do another. That included several steps. I did need to find out what I wanted and needed in my personal life, as a partner, and eventually that I found. Then I needed to find out what I could do to bring our community together and help as best as I could. That led to decades in NAAFA leadership, doing Dimensions, doing BBW, TV, and so on.

Sometimes I wonder what my life would have been if I were not a FA. If I had not experienced the incredible wonders, the ever-so-sweet everyday life, even the many heartbreaks and injustices and banging my head against the wall in trying to change things.

You mention the queen-of-the-dance versus being alone in real life syndrome. I don't know what your circumstances are, but back when I attended conventions and dances, I often wondered how some of those incredibly beautiful, elegant, gorgeous, witty, and eloquent fat women were single, why some lucky FA had not quickly snatched them away. Sometimes I still don't get it. I know the men are out there. What keeps them from choosing the right path?

Of course, what is the right path may not be the same for all of us. Me, I made size acceptance, this community, our community my life. It became the norm rather than the exception. Knowing what tasks where mine and which hers. Knowing where she needed help and what she would do to help me. Where to park the car, where to offer help and where not. How to be prepared for which situations, what to say and where to look the other way. What to research, what to accept and what to fight. The wondrous bliss of being fulfilled as I had always vaguely known I could be, but hadn't been until I'd found myself and my place in the world.

The years have made me somewhat more jaded. We get battle-scarred, seen it all, sometimes wonder why bother. While out there they contemplate whether to put warning labels on soda cans ("The Surgeon General has determined that drinking soda can make you fat! Bla-ba-bla..") I still feel teaching size acceptance would be a whole lot cheaper and certainly a whole lot more humane, compassionate and rational than funding the War on Obesity. Ralph, where are you when we need you?

As is, so much love and passion and human goodness is lost and wasted, so many dreams dashed, so much injustice incurred, so much legally-sanctioned discrimination tolerated. This cannot stand, and hence this community exists. And I hope it keeps growing and one day becomes the norm and not the exception._


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 23, 2007)

Thank you so much Conrad for this wonderful post. I read this to the very end and found that you are truely the perfect man too head this forum.

Before I became a member of this fine forum, I was loosing hope that there were indeed men that loved big women. Since being a member here, I know that there truely are men that do. I just wish that there indeed were more men like you out in this ole world that would see the beauty in women of size that were more tangible than exclusively online communities. It is so frustrating to know that FA's are real, but so elusive. Almost like going snipe hunting..... LOL

I also know where this woman is comming from, I have had many contacts online from these hidden FA's and although very nice, it just isn't the same as being able to hold and to hold in my arms such an FA and know that he is mine and mine alone. This is probably why I remain alone and have been for so many years, because there are just doesn't seem to be any men like that in real life that would understand the BBW as much as an true FA.

If I actually were to have a relationship again with a man, he would definately have too be an true FA because I would want too be with a man that would love all of me just the way that I am, and that is a BBW that likes myself just the way that I am.

Now, I have never been disrespected for my size, people in general have always been friendly towards me when I engage them face too face, but on the other hand, there isn't one man that wants to love me for who and what I am either. It is frustrating for me when I do know that there are FA's out there that really love BBW's like me, but on the other hand, why do they all seem to be only online? 

I have gotten many contacts online as I am member of a couple of BBW dating sites and have chatted and corrisponded in several ways online, but in time, they all/everyone of them just stop the corrispondance without warning. 

As the lady said, where are the real flesh and blood FA's? Are they all online and just playing games and are they unavailable for the most part in real life?

Once again Conrad, I want to thank you for you're post, it gave me some answers too some of the questions that I have had for a long time and still gives me hope that there are others out there just like you that can appreciate the finer qualities of BBW's like me that just want to love and be loved for who we are.


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## LoveBHMS (Sep 23, 2007)

I think it is also important to look at how size acceptance benefits larger folks, or for that matter anyone who is made to feel self conscious or embarassed or in some way "less than" due to body size or shape. I say this to include people who had a hard time for being fat, but also for being too tall or too skinny or too short or too-anything outside the norm. I'm also thinking of any stereotypes that people face due to how they look; that would include football players who are written off as dumb, skinny people who are written off as eating disordered or fat people who are written off as lazy or sloppy or asexual.

I personally have found myself frustrated when being interested in dating larger men, as many of them come to adulthood being severely battle scared if they've grown up heavy. In many cases, they never saw themselves as sexy or attractive or desirable. Some became overly focused on other aspects of their character or personality; they became class clowns, hyper career driven, or they thought their only appeal was in areas apart from their looks. Many of them will easily accept a compliment about a professional success or exhibiting some particular talent, but shrink away when complimented on their sex appeal or looks. Over the years, I've met guys who were incredibley hot but refused to realized it, or worse, thought there was something wrong with any woman who was attracted to them. I once dated a BHM who lost weight and afterwards attacked me for thinking he was attractive when he was larger--he actually asked me what I was thinking being interested in him. I have had at least two very painful experiences where I was rejected by larger men who simply had become unable to see themselves in normal, happy relationships.


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## CuslonGodibb (Sep 23, 2007)

Good post, Webmaster!

This "phenomenon" confuses me as well. Regardless of being an FA or not, it happens every now and then on the Internet that I get the question "Where are guys like you in real life?" or something similar. That sort of puzzles me, because I feel like rather an ordinary guy, and therefore, I expect there have to be lots of such guys out there. But maybe there aren't? I don't know - - -

Obviously, I can only speak for myself, and in my case, I guess I might be sort of invisible to some people, because I simply don't do much. This makes me sound awfully lazy (?), but laziness isn't the reason. I just don't like partying and/or travelling or some other things people my age seem to expect me to like, and if I'm not around where they are, then naturally, they can't notice me. I simply engage in other activities. But no question about it - I AM very real!

Talking about FAs - - - Why would they "hide" in real life? Some do, I'm sure, but I just can't believe ALL of them do. It seems more reasonable to think that some women simply have bad luck.

I'm rather new to the FA term, so I'm sure there are some things that I don't understand yet. I wonder, though, what it is that makes some people "closet FAs" while others are just FAs. As for me, I never make size a big issue when I meet a person. Size is what it is, and if I meet a person I like, then I think in order for me to fully respect this person, I have to be able to show people around us that I like her/him. If this person happens to be fat, that wouldn't bother me the least.

I hate the attitude that says that "it's wrong liking fat people", but I guess it's this very attitude that makes many people remain "closet FAs" instead of just FAs. Am I right? Wrong?

/ CuslonGodibb



Webmaster said:


> The other day I came across a post where a woman voiced ambivalence over online FAs. All those men pursue her in chat or on forums and compliment her, but in real life there is no one for her to go out with, lean on and rely on. She felt the difference between this online world and the real world was hard to take. Below is my response that I posted in the Dimensions Clubhouse but wanted to repeat here:
> 
> _That is very sad to read. As an average-sized FA I can only relate in part to the experience, of course, but there is probably the FA counterpart to it. Like when I attended my very first NAAFA Convention back in 1983 or so and finally felt safe and whole and happy. It was such a high for those five days that the real world afterwards seemed unreal, hostile and I didn't want to have any part of it, I wanted to go back to my family, my community._
> 
> ...


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 23, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I think it is also important to look at how size acceptance benefits larger folks, or for that matter anyone who is made to feel self conscious or embarassed or in some way "less than" due to body size or shape. I say this to include people who had a hard time for being fat, but also for being too tall or too skinny or too short or too-anything outside the norm. I'm also thinking of any stereotypes that people face due to how they look; that would include football players who are written off as dumb, skinny people who are written off as eating disordered or fat people who are written off as lazy or sloppy or asexual.
> 
> I personally have found myself frustrated when being interested in dating larger men, as many of them come to adulthood being severely battle scared if they've grown up heavy. In many cases, they never saw themselves as sexy or attractive or desirable. Some became overly focused on other aspects of their character or personality; they became class clowns, hyper career driven, or they thought their only appeal was in areas apart from their looks. Many of them will easily accept a compliment about a professional success or exhibiting some particular talent, but shrink away when complimented on their sex appeal or looks. Over the years, I've met guys who were incredibley hot but refused to realized it, or worse, thought there was something wrong with any woman who was attracted to them. I once dated a BHM who lost weight and afterwards attacked me for thinking he was attractive when he was larger--he actually asked me what I was thinking being interested in him. I have had at least two very painful experiences where I was rejected by larger men who simply had become unable to see themselves in normal, happy relationships.



This is so true, thank you for this responce, this is major thinking. BHM's are very sexy to me too, but like me being a BBW, we are all brought up to think that fat is bad all our lives through the media and in all walks of life too. 

It is a strange world when noone is accepted just for who and what they are, but it is so much worse when we can't accept ourselves first. I just don't think that there should be this stereotyping, but there is.... *You have to accept yourself just as much as you want too be accepted.*


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## CuslonGodibb (Sep 23, 2007)

Grandi Floras - I do not in any way doubt that your experiences are true, but it does surprice me that FAs are "so elusive". I must've missed something, I guess, but the whole thing seems so natural to me, and I guess this maybe prevents me from realizing that I might be a bit "rare".

We all "want to love and be loved for who we are", don't we? I can't see why it would be any more "difficult" to love a BBW than a skinny woman in that way.

Don't give up, but be sure to get what you deserve - no less!  

/ CuslonGodibb



Grandi Floras said:


> Thank you so much Conrad for this wonderful post. I read this to the very end and found that you are truely the perfect man too head this forum.
> 
> Before I became a member of this fine forum, I was loosing hope that there were indeed men that loved big women. Since being a member here, I know that there truely are men that do. I just wish that there indeed were more men like you out in this ole world that would see the beauty in women of size that were more tangible than exclusively online communities. It is so frustrating to know that FA's are real, but so elusive. Almost like going snipe hunting..... LOL
> 
> ...


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## Jes (Sep 23, 2007)

I think we can't forget what must be a pretty big factor: a lot of guys are happy and satisfied being online FAs and don't feel compelled to take that out into the world at all. It suits their needs, whatever they are, and they have no desire to alter that.


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## BothGunsBlazing (Sep 23, 2007)

Jes said:


> I think we can't forget what must be a pretty big factor: a lot of guys are happy and satisfied being online FAs and don't feel compelled to take that out into the world at all. It suits their needs, whatever they are, and they have no desire to alter that.



Exactly. They go online, talk with BBW, look at pictures and sign off and go back to their skinny wives or girlfriends. 

I hate to say it, but it needs to be said. I have no sympathy for these in the closet men. Of course, I sympathize with the women, but I doubt any of them would want to be with some one who acts so cowardly anyway. 

Their loss is my gain. That is all I'm saying.


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 23, 2007)

The real world doesn't accept us. The real FA's are afraid of the stigma. Conrad is unfortunately a proud, beautiful man who is in the minority in the real world. We can only hope that one day we will meet someone like Conrad in our real world. I don't do chat b/c I am more than a fantasy. Way more.

P.S. I hope you don't mind the secret crush I have on you Conrad. You are just too damned perfect.


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## CuslonGodibb (Sep 23, 2007)

Good point, Jes!

BothGunsBlazing - you're probably right. But to me, a life in which you live "in the closet" all the time seems rather - - - unhappy. I personally have difficulties in beliving that you can be genuinely happy with your life over time if you have to hide a part of yourself all the time. But maybe that's just me - - -

CuteyChubb - the fact (?) that there is such a stigma is just tragic. Just tragic. Some truly stupid things sometimes seem more "accepted" than liking fat people (which is not stupid, of course), and this really makes me wonder what kind of a world we live in. I just can't see what fat and/or fat people has/have done to "deserve" this stigma.

Honestly, I'm not very fond of the Internet versus the real world thing. Why should they be separated? In my view, Internet is a part of the real world. Ideally, we should act on the Internet as we do outside the Internet, and vice versa, right? I try to - - - But then there are people who, in my opinion, use the Internet in the wrong way by pretending to be someone else, by pretending it's a game and not for real, and so on.

What I want to say is, I guess, that I consider Dimensions and all the people on here as real as anything else. I think this is crucial, not only for "closet FAs" but for everybody: We need to bear in mind that when we're communicating on the Internet, we're communicating with real people who have real feelings.

/ CuslonGodibb



Jes said:


> I think we can't forget what must be a pretty big factor: a lot of guys are happy and satisfied being online FAs and don't feel compelled to take that out into the world at all. It suits their needs, whatever they are, and they have no desire to alter that.


 


BothGunsBlazing said:


> Exactly. They go online, talk with BBW, look at pictures and sign off and go back to their skinny wives or girlfriends.
> 
> I hate to say it, but it needs to be said. I have no sympathy for these in the closet men. Of course, I sympathize with the women, but I doubt any of them would want to be with some one who acts so cowardly anyway.
> 
> Their loss is my gain. That is all I'm saying.


 


CuteyChubb said:


> The real world doesn't accept us. The real FA's are afraid of the stigma. Conrad is unfortunately a proud, beautiful man who is in the minority in the real world. We can only hope that one day we will meet someone like Conrad in our real world. I don't do chat b/c I am more than a fantasy. Way more.
> 
> P.S. I hope you don't mind the secret crush I have on you Conrad. You are just too damned perfect.


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## Dravenhawk (Sep 23, 2007)

I have been an FA all my life. I have been the butt of fat jokes because I do not hide my preference. A 500lb ssbbw is my dream girl but also as rare as a molar is on a rooster. I am not sorry for feeling that a 250lb woman is borderline anorexic and I most certianly donot wnat to be seen with a skeleton with the skin stretched too tight bones show eeeeeeewww YUK!! I am recently divorced from a dazzling 450lb redhead who had this whole dialog of self talk that espressed how she was not good enough. She hid her size in baggy clothes, walked lightly, and ate small portions when we went out. At home she would stuff herself watching the food channel all the while. ** Please see my post titled "when things go bad" located in the fat sexuality section of the Weight Board ** expressing how she was unfit to live because she was too fat. She looked at herself as being too big for the world. Perhaps the world is too small. I have lurked on the front section of Dimensions reading the articles. The BBWs I have met are always talking about how they are too big and usually have some obsession with getting thin. 
For once I would like to meet a real woman who does not see her weight as a liability but more as an asset someone who thinks gaining 100lbs would make her more sexy as opposed to less sexy. As an FA I have often pondered the question "Where are the BBWs" I mean the ones who are not strung out on diets and junk like that. I have found one such person on my end of the world through the Dims forums and chat. This FA is out there standing proud of what he sees as true beauty. Rare is the bbw who sees herself as the FA sees her. As an FA I have wondered all my life where such a woman can be found.

Dravenhawk


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## Zoom (Sep 23, 2007)

And there are lots of FAs who aren't that way in public because of shyness that the anonymity of the internet evaporates. I doubt I can ever get a date with any of my BBW friends at work...


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Sep 23, 2007)

Having been online since I was 18/19 years old and always having been 430-565lbs.....I know exactly where the woman Conrad was speaking of was coming from.

I used to chat every night to guys who would tell me how beautiful I was, and I shouldn't change/diet etc and how they would LOVE to date me. Well, in real life, things were very opposite. I had guys willing to fuck me, but not date me in a respectable, looking to marry kind of way. 

I had never met a real FA....sure there was the first FA I met, who turned out to be a liar and married to a skinny woman....and then there was the guy who was a swinger....but attached.....there never seemed to be anyone who wanted just me and only me. I had accepted the fact that I was going to be fat and alone, probably with dogs or cats, for the rest of my life. 

Online has gadded me....it shows the worst in people sometimes...and I think dating is one of those areas. However, online does have it's good bits....had I not been online, Mike and I wouldn't have met, and I wouldn't know what it was like to have every inch of my body loved.

I feel bad, because guys like Mike....are the minority...there are a few out there though...and they are usually snatched up or married to work.

I wake up every morning excited that this all wasn't a dream and that I do have someone who cherishes me like the 200 or so guys online said they would "if only...." I feel like I hit the fat girl lotto, like only 1 super fat girl out of 50 gets the guy of their dreams. And it turned out, I had the golden ssbbw ticket.

The bbw world online is very different than the one in real life. I could go on and on, but I'm way sleepy.


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## Keb (Sep 23, 2007)

I know for me it's easier to flirt online. And I guess part of that is that online, I can be "perfect". Whoever I'm talking to is filling in the blanks with their ideal person, and the things about me that I feel are far from perfect--including my weight, yes, but also my shoe size, my mood swings, my frustration, my failures, my never-ending todo list--just don't exist in that realm, unless I want them to.

But in the real world, I tend to be convinced nobody in their right mind would actually want me (and there it's not just the weight--I'm not saying FAs are crazy!) as flawed as I am. Or I figure anyone I'd be interested in is surely already taken. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate myself. There's quite a lot about me that I like. I just have trouble believing that with all the so much more awesome girls out there, a guy would choose me out of the crowd.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Sep 23, 2007)

I decided to edit and post my thoughts from the clubhouse thread:

_I agree completely that more FA's should be *out*. However, having known quite a few in my life some handle the abuse they have to endure better than others. Wayne is a lifelong FA and as such has a confidence in his preference that FA's who are closeted have to work at. From knowing Wayne (for 16 years now) I know he's just *different*. He is not effected in anyway by what people say unless it hurts me. He is completely comfortable with his preference.

But remember most FA's have to endure their own abuse because of their preference. So you've got Fat women and FA's trying to understand and trust each other through their own set of fears and pain. It's not easy. 

The FA's that I know that are lifelong FA's and confident in their preference are not like other men. They walk to their own drummer (Wayne likes to say his drummer works for Spike Jones) and they are usually loners who couldn't give a rats ass what other people think about who they love.

They are out there - but so are the other guys - it's a tricky situation and it takes time and patience._


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## saucywench (Sep 23, 2007)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Exactly. They go online, talk with BBW, look at pictures and sign off and go back to their skinny wives or girlfriends.


Pssttt--you left out the fapping part (which precedes the going back to their skinny wives or girlfriends part).



CuteyChubb said:


> The real FA's are afraid of the stigma.


If they are afraid of the stigma, then they aren't "real" FAs.


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## elle camino (Sep 23, 2007)

yeah. this all ties into why i've been kinda slowly disengaging myself from dims and the online fatty community in general - as far as i can see, it's counterproductive for me, in my life. when i first got here, god, it was like EUREKA! there are boys who dig on fat! there is a possibility of me being attractive to a guy not DESPITE my weight, but maybe even BECAUSE of it! wtf! this is amazing! this changes everything!
turns out? it changes nothing. out there in the actual world, i'm still the random fat girl everyone's friends with but nobody wants to take home, i still get snickered at when i walk through a group of guys in the street outside of a bar, i still find out at the end of conversations with a cute guys whom i THOUGHT were flirting with me, that they've really just been working up the nerve to ask me to introduce them to my skinny best friend. it's cold comfort to know that there are a handful of dudes strewn across the globe who might not barf at the thought of me naked, when my reality is what it is. 

it's an especially shitty situation since there's really no one person or group or whatever, to point a finger at. i can't blame the guys i know and meet on a daily basis for not being attracted to fat girls, they have every right to like whatever turns their crank. and beyond that, who would i even try to blame? myself for being fat? i suppose i could. from what i understand, many women do just that. but i don't think i've really got it in me. 
so, meh. 
what can you do, really.


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## CuteyChubb (Sep 23, 2007)

saucywench said:


> If they are afraid of the stigma, then they aren't "real" FAs.



Good point. Now the numbers have dipped to the lower side. I should not only accept myself as a big fat beautiful woman but one who will spend her twilights quite alone. Oh well, as long as there's cable.


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## Aliena (Sep 23, 2007)

saucywench said:


> If they are afraid of the stigma, then they aren't "real" FAs.



I disagree with this statement. You can be something, but be afraid to show your true colors. 
Reading what you wrote, says to me, a gay person still in the closet isn't really gay. (as an example)
Sure he/she is, but they're afraid of the stigmatism attatched to being something outside the norm of an American ideal. 

It's conditioning that molds our self acceptance. Some of us are lucky to have friends and family who support us, but unfortunately that's not always the case.


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## Jes (Sep 23, 2007)

Dravenhawk said:


> . Rare is the bbw who sees herself as the FA sees her.
> Dravenhawk


This isn't necessarily always a bad thing, you know?

Love, 
A 250-lbs anorexic.



As for living in the closet and denying yourself--I think there are a good number of men who have a wife/gf and then a fat lover/gf/whatever. So they're not denying themselves something....though they may be denying the 'other woman' more than sex.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Sep 23, 2007)

Jes said:


> This isn't necessarily always a bad thing, you know?
> 
> Love,
> A 250-lbs anorexic.



I love you for more than your fat :wubu: :kiss2:


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## Jes (Sep 23, 2007)

elle camino said:


> yeah. this all ties into why i've been kinda slowly disengaging myself from dims and the online fatty community in general - as far as i can see, it's counterproductive for me, in my life. when i first got here, god, it was like EUREKA! there are boys who dig on fat! there is a possibility of me being attractive to a guy not DESPITE my weight, but maybe even BECAUSE of it! wtf! this is amazing! this changes everything!
> turns out? it changes nothing. out there in the actual world, i'm still the random fat girl everyone's friends with but nobody wants to take home, i still get snickered at when i walk through a group of guys in the street outside of a bar, i still find out at the end of conversations with a cute guys whom i THOUGHT were flirting with me, that they've really just been working up the nerve to ask me to introduce them to my skinny best friend. it's cold comfort to know that there are a handful of dudes strewn across the globe who might not barf at the thought of me naked, when my reality is what it is.
> 
> it's an especially shitty situation since there's really no one person or group or whatever, to point a finger at. i can't blame the guys i know and meet on a daily basis for not being attracted to fat girls, they have every right to like whatever turns their crank. and beyond that, who would i even try to blame? myself for being fat? i suppose i could. from what i understand, many women do just that. but i don't think i've really got it in me.
> ...



So beautiful that I'm going to stitch this entire message onto a sampler and hang it on my wall. 
It's a sad situation to be sure, and really captures the sense of utter frustration felt.


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## elle camino (Sep 23, 2007)

yeah right after i hit submit, the answer to that final question finally occurred to me. 



lose weight.


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## EJKorvette (Sep 23, 2007)

I have always been attracted to taller larger women. Unfortunately most of the time I find myself the victim of, dare I say it, size discrimination.

I am a short guy (five two). When I meet a taller larger woman that I am interested in and start talking to her, most of the time her reaction ranges from "why are you even talking to me" to "go away stop wasting my time". So I don't waste any more time on someone who won't even talk to me because I make her look larger just by standing next to her, or because she has been conditioned by society to think taller men are attractive. (Hmm, that sounds familiar).

Luckily I know that there are enlightened women out there, but I just have to work harder to find them. Unfortunately I have discovered that BBW bashes, dances, events are usually not the best way for me to meet women I am attracted to (though I have met some of my longest-term friends and companions there too). I have been much more successful finding women who accept me at my size in communities such as the SCA, bdsm, polyamory, or even at "general population" singles bars!

So, ladies, when you ask where are the FAs in real life, they may be a lot closer than you think.

EJKorvette aka Evan


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## fatgirlflyin (Sep 24, 2007)

EJKorvette said:


> So I don't waste any more time on someone who won't even talk to me because I make her look larger just by standing next to her, or because she has been conditioned by society to think taller men are attractive. (Hmm, that sounds familiar).



Why does it have to be that they were conditioned to think taller men are attractive? Can't it just be that they prefer taller men? I mean if FA's can have a preference for FAT women, can't fat women have a preference in men?


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## gangstadawg (Sep 24, 2007)

CuteyChubb said:


> The real world doesn't accept us. The real FA's are afraid of the stigma. Conrad is unfortunately a proud, beautiful man who is in the minority in the real world. We can only hope that one day we will meet someone like Conrad in our real world. I don't do chat b/c I am more than a fantasy. Way more.
> 
> P.S. I hope you don't mind the secret crush I have on you Conrad. You are just too damned perfect.


whats the stigma again?


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## CuslonGodibb (Sep 24, 2007)

Dravenhawk said:


> [---] She looked at herself as being too big for the world. Perhaps the world is too small. [---]


 
That's a good thought, Dravenhawk!



Keb said:


> [---] I just have trouble believing that with all the so much more awesome girls out there, a guy would choose me out of the crowd.


 
Keb - you need to realize and make up your mind that you're as much an "awseome girl" as anyone else!  I don't see why a guy wouldn't choose you "out of the crowd". You just have to value yourself more.



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> [---] _However, having known quite a few in my life some handle the abuse they have to endure better than others. _[---] _The FA's that I know that are lifelong FA's and confident in their preference are not like other men. They walk to their own drummer (Wayne likes to say his drummer works for Spike Jones) and they are usually loners who couldn't give a rats ass what other people think about who they love. _[---]


 
Sandie Zitkus - very interesting thoughts! I think you're onto something important here. You say "some handle the abuse they have to endure better than others". That's probably true, and not only concerning FAs but in general.

When you say "They walk to their own drummer [---] and they are usually loners who couldn't give a rats ass what other people think", it sounds quite like me. For some reason I seem to more or less always have had the ability not to care to much about what other people think. I don't mean I'm selfish and don't listen to others, but I don't let others prevent me from being the way I want to be. "I am who I am - take it or leave it!" is my way of thinking here.

I don't really feel like a loner, but in a sense, maybe I am one. The truth is that during my school years, I never really felt that I connected to anyone that much. It felt like we were on different levels mentally, most of the time. Therefore, it didn't give me much to hang around with them; I sought company in other ways, and usually with people who were some years older than me.

It's pretty much the same now. Friends? Yes, but not really my age. Strangely enough, most of the friends I have, I've found through the Internet.

However, I think the interesting thing is: What is it that makes some people not "give a rats ass what other people think"? How come some people "dare" to follow their own feelings while others don't? I don't know, but I wish there was an easy and simple recipe available - - -

Sadly, we can't get past the fact that some people simply are stupid and even mean. Liars like the one BigBellySSBBW describes disgusts me, honestly. I suppose for some people, the Internet with its anonymity offers great opportunities to lie and make themselves sound better than they are. I've experienced such people myself, and I do what I can to avoid them. The only thing I can do about it is try to be a good example. And I believe there ARE many good examples - they're just not that easy to find.

/ CuslonGodibb


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 24, 2007)

I enjoyed reading all of these responces. Everyone made some very good comments.

I still think that if it weren't for stereotyping, many people would be able to find their true loves. I don't think that height, weight, race, religion or any other personal prefferance should be discriminated against. Everyone has their own beliefs and desires when it comes too what they want. The thing is, in some cases, we are afraid too be open about them.

I think that those of us that hide in the internet are the ones that just find it easier because there is less chance of rejection from the opposite sex. Many of us feel that we can be a bit more flirtatious and forward with the object of our attentions behind *Windows 98* as well as closed doors. There is definately that stigma no matter how bad we wish that we weren't that way at all, it is hard to break free of what we have been taught all our lives. It is too bad.....

Here, here too those that can be open about themselves to be able too go out and get what they truely want.


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## Tad (Sep 24, 2007)

Im not disputing that the situation frequently sucks. But I want to point out that, as ever, there is more than one way to look at things. In particular I want to mention a couple of dynamics that really do not help the overall FA situation, but which can be seen as positive things from a certain angle.

First of all, our society repeats endlessly that most guys care only about a womans looks, but that nice guys care about who the woman is, not about how she looks. So a young guy who is a natural FA, who maybe finds that he does not end up drooling over every cheerleader that sees, might therefore get the impression that he is a nice guy. The problem is that he may take this to heart and convinces himself that he doesnt care so much about how a woman looks, and he may even talk himself into ignoring his FA preferences. Sure that BBW over there is so smoking hot, but if he doesnt know her and he chased after her because of her looks, wouldnt that make him as bad as all of his friends? So here is this thinner girl who is really nice and sweet, and with her he can be a perfect gentleman, because although shes cute hes not that uncontrollably hot for her. And she may be interested in him because he actually talks to her like a person and his eyes make it up to her face, so she well be flirting with him. He may console himself with the thought that surely shell put on some weight , when she finds out that I dont mind if she gains weight, goes to college, hits twenty, gets married, has kids, or whatever other event hes mythologized into the being the most probable source of fatness. (any resemblance of this description to my younger self is strictly intentional, although not the full story).

The second dynamic is priorities. Some people will do some casual dating with anyone, but are only going to get serious with someone from their religion, their ethnic group, their socio-economic class, their educational background, or whatever. I think the same dynamic may apply with weight sometimes. Sure you might be most attracted to a fat person, but they may seem different from you, your family, and your friends. Which is more important, what you find most attractive, or fitting in well with your social group. From one perspective it could be considered a social virtue to marry someone that works well in your social context. Like the well off MBA dating the sexy artist for a while, but dumping them to get engaged to the nice girl/boy who will be approved of by their parents. Now, Im not saying that fat should be considered a social factor, but in reality for a lot of people it is, as evidence I offer the way the media covers obesity in general. (For reference, this one does not much resemble me, but Ive certainly seen people I know doing this)

In other words, there are a lot of people who dont settle down with the people who most attract them physically, and in many cases this is seen as a virtue. It is probably also frequently foolish in the long term, and a good recipe for heart break, but in no way does that mean that at the time the person denying their preferences isnt rewarded for it.

-Ed
PS. I'm saying these things happen and can be viewed as good things--I'm not saying that I recommend them to anyone. Rather I think both are errors, but errors often made for what seem like virtuous reasons. That makes them hard mistakes to eliminate.


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## CuslonGodibb (Sep 24, 2007)

Thanks for a very thoughtful post, edx!

This nice guy versus bad guy thing is interesting - - - It could, I suppose, get to the point when one so to speak is "forced" to live up to a (false) image. If one's image is "I don't care about looks" but in reality one DOES care, then there's probably going to be an inner conflict sooner or later.

In one way, it's as much about being true to oneself as being true to one's (potential) partner.

/ CuslonGodibb



edx said:


> Im not disputing that the situation frequently sucks. But I want to point out that, as ever, there is more than one way to look at things. In particular I want to mention a couple of dynamics that really do not help the overall FA situation, but which can be seen as positive things from a certain angle.
> 
> First of all, our society repeats endlessly that most guys care only about a womans looks, but that nice guys care about who the woman is, not about how she looks. So a young guy who is a natural FA, who maybe finds that he does not end up drooling over every cheerleader that sees, might therefore get the impression that he is a nice guy. The problem is that he may take this to heart and convinces himself that he doesnt care so much about how a woman looks, and he may even talk himself into ignoring his FA preferences. Sure that BBW over there is so smoking hot, but if he doesnt know her and he chased after her because of her looks, wouldnt that make him as bad as all of his friends? So here is this thinner girl who is really nice and sweet, and with her he can be a perfect gentleman, because although shes cute hes not that uncontrollably hot for her. And she may be interested in him because he actually talks to her like a person and his eyes make it up to her face, so she well be flirting with him. He may console himself with the thought that surely shell put on some weight , when she finds out that I dont mind if she gains weight, goes to college, hits twenty, gets married, has kids, or whatever other event hes mythologized into the being the most probable source of fatness. (any resemblance of this description to my younger self is strictly intentional, although not the full story).
> 
> ...


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## truebebeblue (Sep 24, 2007)

I keep coming back to this thread. I am involved with someone I met via dims that is Closeted. I am in love with him. We are seperated by a great distance and he feels stifled by his current locale. He feels as though he would be fine if he was somewhere else. I am not so sure. Most days I push this out of my head and just enjoy him,some days it's all I think about. I think it will be THE issue in our relationship.The crux. I get angry with him I also see how it hurts him to hide it. I see both sides.I feel like wehave such a connection that I have to see it out to the (possibly) gorey end. I know every second that my heart is in jeopardy and that I will be gutted if things do not change. I can tell you, I have never felt so sad about anything. I usually ask men straight away if they are out and I didn't with him. I was new to dims and I guess wearing rosey glasses I guess I assumed he would be out. It didn'tcome to light until a few months into talking... and I was so upset but already quite attached by then. I just don't knwo what to do about it. It's very complex once feelings are involved. I would advise women to NOT become involved as I have. It is really painful.


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## Tad (Sep 24, 2007)

CuslonGodibb said:


> In one way, it's as much about being true to oneself as being true to one's (potential) partner.



Very well put! People in general can be pretty good at prioritizing things above being true to themselves, and I think younger people are even more likely to do so.

-Ed


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## Stoner (Sep 24, 2007)

I for one never understood the whole FA in the closet thing, not until recently, when a good friend here explained me the concept. And even so, I still fail to understand why some men are able to talk or even flirt with women online, but will avoid them on the street. Not that Im judging others for their attitudes, Im just trying to understand what reasons could lead them to act in such a way.

I understand things can be hard sometimes. Hell, I should know, not too long ago I decided to use this picture as a background in my pc desktop at work, mostly for fun, and because I love the picture and what it represents to me. In the next day, I was told by my superior to remove it or else, because there were several complaints about it being *discriminatory(?!)*, mind you. I have a pretty good idea about who complained about the picture; most likely the same people that were responsible for the comments that made one of my co-workers (also one of the _very few_ fat women in the office) to stay almost half an hour next to the copier, where no one could see her crying. I reported them for that, and they probably decided to pay me back the favor by reporting the picture. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Yes, I happen to live in a country where people are obnoxiously close-minded toward fatness and everything related, including but not limited to fat admiring. A country where I'm yet to find any sort of BBW/SSBBW scene going on, and believe me, I've been looking for a very long time. Same goes for online communities, after searching for online forums in my native language, and becoming so damn tired of being constantly redirected to porn sites on every search, I finally decided to expand my search and started looking for English forums as well, and ended up here at Dims. And Im glad I did. 

So yeah, being a FA brings lots of adversities to overcome, but still, nothing that I would consider even close enough to stop me from proudly admiring whatever kind of women I want. 

-Nuno


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## SilkyAngela (Sep 24, 2007)

I pity closeted FA's. I think it is pretty dumb/sad to let what others think stand in the way of happiness. Ultimately they are the ones missing out by their own choosing.
I personally think it's better to be without a relationship than to be in one my partner is ashamed or uncomfortable publicly with. If I had to choose between a one sided or no relationship...I'd gladly be alone.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Sep 24, 2007)

This post is a little long, but once I got going, I was on a roll....

When it comes to interactions between BBWs and FAs, we are dealing with two complementary groups that have been stigmatized by our thin-conscious society all their lives. (What I'm saying may also hold true for interactions between BHMs and FFAs, but I will limit my discussion to BBWs and FAs, in keeping with the focus of this thread.)

I believe that many BBWs were shut out of the dating scene during their high school years - partly because they were convinced that no one would be interested in dating them, and partly because the FAs in their schools were too shy to ask them out. And since this is the time when people develop their dating skills, both sides of the equation may be suffering from a degree of what I call "social dysfunction". 

I base this on personal experience. You see, I first realized I preferred larger girls when I was in Fourth Grade, when I realized that the girl standing in front of me during chorus rehearsal was making me feel like I had never felt before. (I was only ten, so having feelings like that for a girl was something that was all new to me.) Over the next two years, this girl and I became friends, and in Sixth Grade we wound up in the same class. And when the other kids in the class realized that the skinniest boy and one of the largest girls in the class liked each other, all hell broke loose. We were subjected to all kinds of scorn and ridicule. (Kids can be very cruel to each other.) It drove the two of us apart, although we remained friends until she moved away a few years later.

After that experience, I went through a period I refer to as "preference denial". I hid my preference all through junior high and high school. I even dated thin girls, all the time feeling miserable, wishing I had the nerve to ask some of the larger girls out. Finally, I decided that my happiness was more important than what my family and friends thought. From that day in 1972 (when I was eighteen), every woman I've been involved with romantically has been a BBW. 

But there were times when I had no BBW in my life, because back then BBWs were hard to find. I used to hang out in regular bars back then, and very few BBWs seemed to be there. So I was alone for months at a time between girlfriends (and between marriages). I had heard of NAAFA back then, but did not attend my first NAAFA dance until 1990. And while the last three women in my life (including Sandie) were women I met at Size Acceptance functions. All the others were women I met out in the "real world".

So in closing, this does not appear to be exclusively a BBW problem OR an FA problem. Both sides have been hurt in different ways as they traveled along their paths, and bear the emotional scars to prove it. But you should never give up - the right person for you might be just around the corner.


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## tonynyc (Sep 24, 2007)

In terms of my own experience- I have always been attracted to SSBBWs and have been very fortunate no to have been hasseled in public. 
I've had to deal always deal challenging the norm in so many areas of my life- so my love of BBWs fit right in.  

Unfortunately for some BBWs and FAs, the road to self-acceptance is a journey in developing that confidence and hopefully that comes in time and understanding. Each circumstance is different. It's important to see where they are coming from and if the person is truly sincere,then you offer all the support and encouragement to build their confidence. However, as others have mentioned If the person is not sincere then it's time to move on. 

Now, for all of the faults with the internet- it certainly makes it easier/faster to meet the BBW's or FA's of our dreams and gives an option for folks living in parts of the US or other areas where there are no Active BBW/BHM networks.
In addition, just finding out about someone past the Internet stage is a process that takes time. Each step is not an easy process from 1st phone call to 1st meeting etc. etc.


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## troubadours (Sep 25, 2007)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Exactly. They go online, talk with BBW, look at pictures and sign off and go back to their skinny wives or girlfriends.
> 
> I hate to say it, but it needs to be said. I have no sympathy for these in the closet men. Of course, I sympathize with the women, but I doubt any of them would want to be with some one who acts so cowardly anyway.
> 
> Their loss is my gain. That is all I'm saying.



i know i wouldn't want to be with someone who would be embarassed and shady about being seen/affectionate with me in public. i don't feel bad for these dudes either, especially if they're with someone who's thin in an attempt to hide their real preferences... we can't hide being fat. i think if a guy was truly a FA, he would know that and want to be as supportive and public with his feelings as possible.


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## waldo (Sep 25, 2007)

truebebeblue said:


> I keep coming back to this thread. I am involved with someone I met via dims that is Closeted. I am in love with him. We are seperated by a great distance and he feels stifled by his current locale. He feels as though he would be fine if he was somewhere else. I am not so sure. Most days I push this out of my head and just enjoy him,some days it's all I think about. I think it will be THE issue in our relationship.The crux. I get angry with him I also see how it hurts him to hide it. I see both sides.I feel like wehave such a connection that I have to see it out to the (possibly) gorey end. I know every second that my heart is in jeopardy and that I will be gutted if things do not change. I can tell you, I have never felt so sad about anything. I usually ask men straight away if they are out and I didn't with him. I was new to dims and I guess wearing rosey glasses I guess I assumed he would be out. It didn'tcome to light until a few months into talking... and I was so upset but already quite attached by then. I just don't knwo what to do about it. It's very complex once feelings are involved. I would advise women to NOT become involved as I have. It is really painful.



This post should form the basis for a whole new thread.

I agree that location will not change much about how easy it is to be open about one's FA orientation. However, some areas have a larger number of more liberal/openminded people, such as California vs. the midwest. On the other hand California is chock full of looks obsessed people so it remains difficult no matter where you are.

Unfortunately, I think your most likely best move right now would be to cut your losses and break it off with the guy you are involved with. On the other hand, there are a number of men who do not openly pursue fat women until they are older (30s or 40s) and less influenced by silly peer pressure, so it is not always a lost cause. If you sense he is tormented by this situation and would like to be able to express who he really is - it may be worth seeing it out a bit further. Are there any signs that he can increase his ability to deal with this? Have you met up in real life and does he appear to be able to deal with being out with you in public amongst strangers? If he can't at least do that especially in your locale where nobody knows him - then you are really starting from scratch.

To the guy if you are reading this: jumping in at the deep-end is likely the best approach for you right now. Consider writing a letter to a few close friends and your immediate family and include a picture of your girlfriend and tell them some things about her that you like besides her attractive looks. Also remember that you aren't expected to discuss or acknowledge your orientation with anyone . Sure some people will otherwise wonder what the hell you are doing with her, but it is a reasonable price to pay for being fulfilled in your relationship. And like it has been said here many times, those who have a problem with it aren't anyone you want as friends anyways.

All the best to you both.


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 25, 2007)

I think that all of this is well and fine, but if the truth be known, most of us are still left wondering why we cannot find our loves.

Lots of us say that if we can't find our true love, so be it, we would rather stay alone. In reality though, there isn't a one of us that is not (deep in our hearts), looking for Mr. or Miss Right.

To some of us, hiding on the internet is such a crutch that we feel safer from rejection, but at the same time still want what everyone has. 

Many of us just consider remaining alone because it is so much easier than facing that rejection or haveing to go through the Drama and Stress of a relationship that we are afraid something will go wrong with. This is because we just automatically assume it will because we have been rejected before and we are too afraid too take that chance again.

The Internet can be a wonderous media, but it can also retard our progress of finding that perfect mate. 

It just seems that many feel that they can contact you on the Internet in ways that are otherwise unacceptable in a face to face contact. I mean, how many people come up too you face to face and ask or assume you want to show them or view their genitalia? Not to meantion, is that all that these people think that you want out of them, is their self esteem so poor that that is all that they think that they can offer?

I truely wish that I could find a good man to enjoy life with, but I want that man to understand that I have many other things to offer him.

It really has not a lot too do with the size, age, color or appearance of the person, it has a lot too do with what an individual desires of the one that they are looking for. 

That still doesn't mean that the closet FA or FFA is going too come out from hiding any day soon. Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack!! Does that mean that many of us will never find our true loves, maybe, maybe not, it is all a game of chance....


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## Jes (Sep 25, 2007)

stoner, this is off topic, and I don't know the exact situation in your office, but I cannot imagine a workplace in which a photo like that would be seen as professional and appropriate. It's not the 'worst' I've seen, by far, but that's a home-use kinda thing right there. It's a sexualized image, whether anyone is having sex in it or not, and if I were a woman, walking past that every day (fat, thin, I don't care what), I'd most likely have complained about it as well. I don't want to see women in miniskirts and fetish heels in my office. I'm not asking you to rethink using it, I'm not asking you to respond to me, I'm just giving you the other side of the coin.


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## goofy girl (Sep 25, 2007)

First of all..I agree with Jes. If you were in the US you would not be asked to remove the photo, you'd be asked to pack up your desk and leave. Not only is the pic too sexual in nature, it could be mistaken as a ridiculing fat people.

My next statement is this: For as many men as there are chatting online to BBW's, there is a BBW chatting back. So..if the ladies are all in their homes on the computer, that doesn't give the gentleman an opportunity to approach them in public. I learned that the hard way..after a lot of lonely, depressing evenings!

Just a thought.


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## Jes (Sep 25, 2007)

goofy ssbbw said:


> First of all..I agree with Jes. If you were in the US you would not be asked to remove the photo, you'd be asked to pack up your desk and leave. Not only is the pic too sexual in nature, it could be mistaken as a ridiculing fat people.
> 
> My next statement is this: For as many men as there are chatting online to BBW's, there is a BBW chatting back. So..if the ladies are all in their homes on the computer, that doesn't give the gentleman an opportunity to approach them in public. I learned that the hard way..after a lot of lonely, depressing evenings!
> 
> Just a thought.



Oh, SNAP. that's exactly it, isn't it? And I feel terrible saying that. I don't mean to point fingers. I've chatted. I'm online. I've talked with men via PM here. I've been approached, or contacted first,a nd I've done the same the other direction, too. But where's there's a supply, there's a demand, and vice versa. I think just about every fat woman who shows up here has that sudden: Wow, they like me. They really like me! When they find out things aren't that simple, and they perhaps begin to change their habits (no more chatting with strangers, no more sending off nudie pix, or whatever they might do early on)...well, there's always a steady influx of new members who will do the same, which keeps the demand raging.


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## goofy girl (Sep 25, 2007)

Jes said:


> Oh, SNAP. that's exactly it, isn't it? And I feel terrible saying that. I don't mean to point fingers. I've chatted. I'm online. I've talked with men via PM here. I've been approached, or contacted first,a nd I've done the same the other direction, too. But where's there's a supply, there's a demand, and vice versa. I think just about every fat woman who shows up here has that sudden: Wow, they like me. They really like me! When they find out things aren't that simple, and they perhaps begin to change their habits (no more chatting with strangers, no more sending off nudie pix, or whatever they might do early on)...well, there's always a steady influx of new members who will do the same, which keeps the demand raging.



EXACTLY! I'm guilty of it too. 100%. And of course it feels good..that's why we all keep coming back! LOL.And if it feels so great to have a guy doting on you here, of course its better to have him in the flesh! But, unless you don't mind an online romance, you really need to go out to meet people. It's not easy for everyone..we have our esteem issues, anxiety, or just too danged tired at the end of the day. But for the most part (I know there are some fabulous relationships that come out of online romance) you really need to go out there.


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## ashmamma84 (Sep 25, 2007)

So is the closeted FA the only one to blame? Because my thinking is, I love and respect myself too much to even think about being with someone who won't be seen with me in public...whatever happened to women who are confident with a good dose of self esteem, ones who, aren't willing to settle for some person that has this whole "closeted" issue. And another question -- do you always have to be approached before you find interest in someone? I know I don't...

I think, for me, as a fat lesbian woman, I am in a stage in my life where I am not ashamed of the parts of who I am -- lesbian and fat -- so to that end, I couldn't see myself with someone who is going through the process of coming out, on either fronts, because I've been there, and I've done that...and quite frankly, I don't have the patience for it.


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## TallFatSue (Sep 25, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> I wake up every morning excited that this all wasn't a dream and that I do have someone who cherishes me like the 200 or so guys online said they would "if only...." I feel like I hit the fat girl lotto, like only 1 super fat girl out of 50 gets the guy of their dreams. And it turned out, I had the golden ssbbw ticket.


That's for doggone sure. It makes me sad to read about all the women (fat or thin) who never find the men of their dreams. Sadder still when I read a recent report that less than half of all couples who were married 25 years ago are still married. It seems like the deck is stacked against almost everyone. But here I am, a 50-year-old obese woman, whose Mr. Right practically fell into my lap 3 decades ago, blissfully happily married for a quarter-century and counting. Talk about winning the super lottery of life despite all odds!



elle camino said:


> ... i'm still the random fat girl everyone's friends with but nobody wants to take home, i still get snickered at when i walk through a group of guys in the street outside of a bar, i still find out at the end of conversations with a cute guys whom i THOUGHT were flirting with me, that they've really just been working up the nerve to ask me to introduce them to my skinny best friend...


This sounds kinda familiar. In junior high school I hated being the big tall fat girl and was usually the butt of fat jokes (my double-wide butt was an easy target). Fast forward to high school, when I discovered I had a quick wit so I became a friendly wise ass as a defense mechanism which worked surprisingly well. Soon I became reasonably popular as the stereotypical funny fat girl who made everyone laugh, and I had lots of friends who were boys but no true boyfriends. About the only boys who showed any interest were those who were interested only in my fat (I knew even then there were fat lovers, as I called them in the 1970s), or thought fat girls were easy, or wanted me to introduce them to my thin friends. Fast forward again to college, when one year I gradually began to realize that a certain boy (my future husband) was really truly interested in ME! Not just my fat, not just an easy lay, not my skinny friends, but me me me! Holy @#$%&* -- I was so used to casual relationships and downright fakers I almost didn't know what to do. Thank goodness I had enough presence of mind to go on a date with the guy, but I was so nervous I had the hiccups half the evening. That shipwreck of a date was the beginning of a romance out of a screwball comedy that I wouldn't trade for anything. (We laugh about it now. There I was, hiccuping like a one-woman band, embarrassed as hell, but soon I noticed that Art was watching my huge breasts and belly shake every 5 seconds. Not exactly my idea of feminine charms but ... all's well that ends well.)


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## Stoner (Sep 25, 2007)

Jes said:


> stoner, this is off topic, and I don't know the exact situation in your office, but I cannot imagine a workplace in which a photo like that would be seen as professional and appropriate. It's not the 'worst' I've seen, by far, but that's a home-use kinda thing right there. It's a sexualized image, whether anyone is having sex in it or not, and if I were a woman, walking past that every day (fat, thin, I don't care what), I'd most likely have complained about it as well. I don't want to see women in miniskirts and fetish heels in my office. I'm not asking you to rethink using it, I'm not asking you to respond to me, I'm just giving you the other side of the coin.





goofy ssbbw said:


> Not only is the pic too sexual in nature, it could be mistaken as a ridiculing fat people.



Jes, Im not sure why youre not expecting me to respond, Im always open to constructive criticism, and I actually agree with you and Goofy when you say that the picture in question is inappropriate for most working places. It is indeed more of a home-use kind of thing, and that was probably the reason why I used it in the first place. I could describe my office as a second home, so I and the other six tend to customize it to our likings, like having personal stuff that you usually only see at a home place, e.g. a small refrigerator, a microwave oven, a stereo, flower pots, a small fish tank, and yes, also personal/funny/sexy/whatever pictures in our pc desktops, provided that no member of the team is offended or feels uncomfortable about it. It may not sound like a very professional workplace, but social working often takes place in such unconventional conditions. Ive been lucky enough to work with these five great, very open-minded women for eight years long, and I wouldnt even dream about using a picture that each one of them wasnt comfortable with. I did, however, forget that our co-workers from other offices occasionally drop by to nose around, and that was indeed a mistake. I also didnt consider that the picture could be misinterpreted as ridiculing fat people, as Goofy mentioned, and I certainly wouldnt want that to happen, so Ill be sure to keep it in mind in the future.

And just for the record, I wasnt all that upset about the picture being reported, I probably should know better. But the fact that it was reported by people I reported before for prejudice against another co-worker really pissed me off, especially because no action was taken on them.

-Nuno


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## goofy girl (Sep 25, 2007)

Stoner said:


> . I could describe my office as a second home, so I and the other six tend to customize it to our likings, like having personal stuff that you usually only see at a home place, e.g. a small refrigerator, a microwave oven, a stereo, flower pots, a small fish tank
> 
> -Nuno



Well..aside from the people that pissed you off, it sounds like a great place! I wanna job with a fridge and a stereo!!


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## Jes (Sep 25, 2007)

TallFatSue said:


> There I was, hiccuping like a one-woman band, embarrassed as hell, but soon I noticed that Art was watching my huge breasts and belly shake every 5 seconds. .)


I would be interested in hearing more about this.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Sep 25, 2007)

Jes said:


> stoner, this is off topic, and I don't know the exact situation in your office, but I cannot imagine a workplace in which a photo like that would be seen as professional and appropriate. It's not the 'worst' I've seen, by far, but that's a home-use kinda thing right there. It's a sexualized image, whether anyone is having sex in it or not, and if I were a woman, walking past that every day (fat, thin, I don't care what), I'd most likely have complained about it as well. I don't want to see women in miniskirts and fetish heels in my office. I'm not asking you to rethink using it, I'm not asking you to respond to me, I'm just giving you the other side of the coin.


At the last three places I've worked (all major defense contractors), a screensaver like that would be grounds for disciplinary action, up to and including termination.


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 26, 2007)

goofy ssbbw said:


> First of all..I agree with Jes. If you were in the US you would not be asked to remove the photo, you'd be asked to pack up your desk and leave. Not only is the pic too sexual in nature, it could be mistaken as a ridiculing fat people.
> 
> My next statement is this: For as many men as there are chatting online to BBW's, there is a BBW chatting back. So..if the ladies are all in their homes on the computer, that doesn't give the gentleman an opportunity to approach them in public. I learned that the hard way..after a lot of lonely, depressing evenings!
> 
> Just a thought.



This isn't always nessisarily so, I am rarely on the computer, I work most times six days a week and I am out in the public most of that time. I am lucky if I am on the computer more than two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. Indeed, yes, there are many that spend a lot of time in front of the computer and not out in actual life, but not all of us fit into that catagory either.


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## Jes (Sep 26, 2007)

Four hours a day is a lot, grandi. I'm not judging you in the least, but if you're online, even fewer that 4 hours a day, then you still fit into Ed's argument. I understood him to be saying that when you're online, you won't get approached in real life. Not that you won't get approached OFFline when you're offline yourself.


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## Tad (Sep 26, 2007)

Jes said:


> .... if you're online, even fewer that 4 hours a day, then you still fit into Ed's argument. I understood him to be saying that when you're online, you won't get approached in real life. Not that you won't get approached OFFline when you're offline yourself.



I don't think I said that in this thread, although I may have said something like that elsewhere. But that may be a fair corollary of what Conrad was saying.

I would agree though that if you want to meet someone near you, you should go and do things that cause you to meet new people, near you. If on the other hand you want to find a particular match no matter where, time on the net is probably not a bad investment. If you want both, eh, that is an age old problem.

-Ed


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## goofy girl (Sep 26, 2007)

Grandi Floras said:


> This isn't always nessisarily so, I am rarely on the computer, I work most times six days a week and I am out in the public most of that time. I am lucky if I am on the computer more than two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. Indeed, yes, there are many that spend a lot of time in front of the computer and not out in actual life, but not all of us fit into that catagory either.



Well of course not _everybody_ fits into that category, I never said that.


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## Tina (Sep 26, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> So is the closeted FA the only one to blame? Because my thinking is, I love and respect myself too much to even think about being with someone who won't be seen with me in public...whatever happened to women who are confident with a good dose of self esteem, ones who, aren't willing to settle for some person that has this whole "closeted" issue. And another question -- do you always have to be approached before you find interest in someone? I know I don't...
> 
> I think, for me, as a fat lesbian woman, I am in a stage in my life where I am not ashamed of the parts of who I am -- lesbian and fat -- so to that end, I couldn't see myself with someone who is going through the process of coming out, on either fronts, because I've been there, and I've done that...and quite frankly, I don't have the patience for it.


Ash, I'm right there with you, except for the lesbian part, which is, I think, more significant and potentially way more difficult and dangerous a thing than the fat issue. 

I dated a closeted FA once and that is the last time. They might need someone to help them come to terms with it, but it won't be me -- except as a friend. Being in a committed relationship it wouldn't happen anyway, but being anything more than friends is just something I wouldn't want to happen anyway. I feel for them, but they have the luxury of hiding if they like and dealing with it in their own time and on their own terms. As a fat person, I'm out there 24/7 and I have had to deal with it on the fly from my earliest years. One scaredy cat who admonished me for taking his hand in public is more than enough, thankyouverymuch. :blink:


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## Tad (Sep 26, 2007)

Tina said:


> One scaredy cat who admonished me for taking his hand in public is more than enough, thankyouverymuch. :blink:



Wow, for that you should have taken the hand for sure.....maybe kept it in a bell jar or methyl-alcohol or something......it is not like someone like that is ever going to make good use of it  

The thought of anyone saying they are in a relationship with someone, and then not being willing to be seen with them as a couple, makes my blood boil. So totally, completely, disrespectful. *

* OK, if you are mutually undertaking a clandestine affair, sure you don't want to be seen in public as a couple, but that is a bit different.

-Ed


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## LillyBBBW (Sep 26, 2007)

Tina said:


> Ash, I'm right there with you, except for the lesbian part, which is, I think, more significant and potentially way more difficult and dangerous a thing than the fat issue.
> 
> I dated a closeted FA once and that is the last time. They might need someone to help them come to terms with it, but it won't be me -- except as a friend. Being in a committed relationship it wouldn't happen anyway, but being anything more than friends is just something I wouldn't want to happen anyway. I feel for them, but they have the luxury of hiding if they like and dealing with it in their own time and on their own terms. As a fat person, I'm out there 24/7 and I have had to deal with it on the fly from my earliest years. One scaredy cat who admonished me for taking his hand in public is more than enough, thankyouverymuch. :blink:



I would love to sympathize with a closet FA. I do understand and my heart does go out to them but for most BBW's a coset FA is too much dead weight. You wouldnt believe the kind of intestinal fortitude it takes for a fattie to be looked at with such revulsion every day. It's a tough trek trying to wade through the negative stuff out there alone but carrying a grown man on your back? A closet FA drags you down and it's something rare a fat girl can afford. In that sense I would much rather be alone, as SilkyAngela so eloquently stated earlier. I know I've busted out a lot of closet FA hate here before and my heated feelings have cooled somewhat but I still feel getting invlolved with a closet FA is bad news.


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## Tina (Sep 26, 2007)

Yep. I've taken some heat for it here before, too, some time ago, Lilly. But for anyone who has been fat all their lives, and who has taken shit for it all their lives, the last -- VERY LAST -- thing that person needs is a supposed admirer who only admires them in private. It is the antithesis of validation -- public validation being what is called for, not private adoration and public negation. Alliteration, gotta love it.


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## Blockierer (Sep 26, 2007)

A lot of men claim to be a proud FA here in the forums. But I would like to remember a thread started by Rainyday _"FA Photo Site - Has it been done? ".
What I'm picturing is something men could upload their own photos to. In each photo they'd be holding up a piece of paper that says "I like fat chicks," or expressing the same thought some other way. _
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=390892&postcount=1

I wonder why only a dozen men uploaded their pic. Are the proud FAs here confronted with the real world?


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 27, 2007)

Jes said:


> Four hours a day is a lot, grandi. I'm not judging you in the least, but if you're online, even fewer that 4 hours a day, then you still fit into Ed's argument. I understood him to be saying that when you're online, you won't get approached in real life. Not that you won't get approached OFFline when you're offline yourself.



I said that I was lucky to be able too be on the computer that much, it doesn't mean that I am..... rarely if that much at all actually am I on the computer. In fact, there are many days that I am only online in the morning for about an hour before I have too leave for work and I many times don't even turn the computer on in the evenings....


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## bigplaidpants (Sep 27, 2007)

Um....note to self: I have to find time to read this thread.

 (Now it'll be under my subscribed thread on my ole CP)


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## Grandi Floras (Sep 27, 2007)

I just feel that if you want too be with someone, you should be with them and be proud of who you are with out in public as well as in the privacy of your own home.

I feel that people too ashamed or disrespectful of their partner when they are out in public, are really not meant for eachother in the first place.

At any rate, not only should we take pride in who we are, but we should show pride in our partners too. The heck with what anyone else thinks. On the other hand, sometimes, it just isn't that easy for some....

I know that not everyone is good at exposing their prefferances so freely and it is just simpler to be the way that they are. I think that that is why many of us just continue being alone, we don't have the drama or the stress of it all and it makes our lives so much less complicated in the long run. We may want a relationship, but not badly enough too risk it either......


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## weetabix (Sep 27, 2007)

I suppose it's one of those things like how cruel children can be to 'weaker' children. Or how german solders following orders can strangle jewish children.

The fact of life is that the majority follow the majority. We act like a flock of sheep. Those people who don't are often seen as cool but are also arrested and locked up for some crime. The weird nerdy pervy people probably lead the way. Most people would rather die than not be normal. These are the people who want to be cool, but think that's by being normal.

It takes some seriously large balls for an FA to be open in public. Most men have very very tiny balls and have to drive large 4x4 cars (very inexpertly) to try and compensate. So now you know why they need an off road car to drive to the office.

I would not mind betting that your balls actually gow bigger when you drive your womans small Honda instead of driving a ball expanding turbo charged knob extension. 

There are FAs out there but remember most men are pathetic adult sized children who would probably rather beat the shit out of their skinny wife than admit to wanting a super sized obese woman.

SSBBW it's up o you to turn us usless pathetic men into real men, od knows we don't have the balls to do it for ourselves.

Regards,
Weetabix.


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## prplecat (Sep 27, 2007)

weetabix said:


> SSBBW it's up o you to turn us usless pathetic men into real men, od knows we don't have the balls to do it for ourselves.
> 
> Regards,
> Weetabix.


Sorry, that's not my job, and I'm NOT taking it on. The world at large has piled more on my ample shoulders than belongs there, anyway. I want a partner that is a fully responsible adult, capable of the love and respect that I can only get from an all-the-way-grownup man, and I will accept no less. Face it, I'm already raising one young'un by myself...why would I want to make it two?


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## RedVelvet (Sep 27, 2007)

weetabix said:


> SSBBW it's up o you to turn us usless pathetic men into real men, od knows we don't have the balls to do it for ourselves.
> 
> Regards,
> Weetabix.


 

I wish to fuck I could just announce that the hard things in my life are just "Too HAAAARRRRDDDDDD......someone ELSE do it!"....and people would rush in and pick up the slack. 

THAT..is..a ridiculous statement. You claim men are big babies, essentially.....and then abdicate responsiblity for it. Astonishing. 

Of course... 

Men....are coddled like that in small and big ways..... 

For example.... I have girl friends who would coo and sigh if I told them my lover made me scrambled eggs for breakfast.... 

"Oooooh..how thoughtful...how clever..how sweet!"....as if its challenging or extraordinary....(its very nice tho..thanks, sweetie...) 

What if we applied that to women? "oh....she made scrambled eggs...Gold Star for her!" No.....we would think her an idiot if she COULDN'T do that......... Christ...a man picks up his own underwear and we applaud.....we talk about how wonderful he is because he has the BASIC life skills we would demand and expect in our female friends and think utterly commonplace.. 

fuck that... 


There is a famous myth about the women of a village refusing to make love to their spouses unless they quit fighting a war. 

.....and it worked. 

Now if only I could get every beautiful big woman on the planet to quit giving these cowardly, lazy, childish idiots the fucking time of day, let alone their bodies.... 

JUST STOPPING IT ALTOGETHER..... 

Eventually....the behavior would end. 



Ah....gods....such a rich fantasy life I have.


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## mossystate (Sep 28, 2007)

RveeJ..I wish I could rep the snot out of you..and would hope you had a cold.

My sister went through a surgery that is second only to heart surgery in terms of body trauma ( sorry to the Clubhousers who already saw me talk about this ). She told me that 3 women from my brother in laws' workplace brought food over....add that number to the 4 neighbor women..and his 4 sisters...well.....that is a lot of grub. When my bro in law was laid up with a back issue....guess how much help my sister got........* hears crickets *

Now, my bro in law told people that they did not have to do it..that he was " fine "...that he took work off to care for my sister and their 2 young kids....oh, the pats on the back..the nominating him for sainthood...etc...I expected a parade when I went over to their house the day she got out of the hospital.........but what I saw?.....a man complaining over how stressed he was...first night .....saying to my sister as she tried to tell him to cool it a little with the drama, " what about ME..why doesn't anybody consider what I am going through ":blink: 

This IS learned ..and it can be UNlearned..but....yes...more women need to nip it in the bud and treat men with the respect that they know the men are capable...so many women get off on either swooning when a man does something that they never applaud a woman doing...or they will become pissed off and stew.....

wow..I went off the tracks a little bit....but...all connected...yeah...

in other words...NO...it is not up to women ( oops...only SSbbw ) to take Peter Pan by the hand....and you insult the men out here who are strong and caring and know their lives and how they are lived.......is up to them.....


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## Blackjack (Sep 28, 2007)

weetabix said:


> I suppose it's one of those things like how cruel children can be to 'weaker' children. Or how german solders following orders can strangle jewish children.



...Holy shit, was this thread just Godwinned?



> Most men have very very tiny balls and have to drive large 4x4 cars (very inexpertly) to try and compensate... I would not mind betting that your balls actually gow bigger when you drive your womans small Honda instead of driving a ball expanding turbo charged knob extension.



Thank you very much for the stereotyping. That surely explains why some of my friends have loved cars and mechanical stuff since before they knew what a penis was.



> SSBBW it's up o you to turn us usless pathetic men into real men, od knows we don't have the balls to do it for ourselves.



Yes, we're helpless little children who need to be guided into adulthood by the objects of our desire.

I admit, I'm not totally open just yet, but I'm sure as hell working on it. I'm not wearing my "Fat Chicks Only" shirt out and about everyday, but I've talked about it with people who get it and people who don't. As far as I can tell, it hasn't changed any opinions of me too much.

A year and a half ago, I probably wouldn't have even imagined that I'd be doing some of the stuff I'm doing now- going to bashes. Meeting people who I've only spoken to online. Hanging out with people of all ages who are like me- in more than just preference. I wouldn't have considered being so open then.

It wasn't the help of any one person that got me to do this. It wasn't just SSBBW's, or BBW's, or women. It was a whole bunch of people that made me feel far more comfortable in my preference, that allowed me to be totally open about it- which was not easy after a long time of keeping to myself, having myself set apart from my classmates, through my actions and their cliques. This made it easier for _me _to go out and decide to do these things. It made it easier for _me _to help myself with it. I didn't have to be guided by the hand.


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## fatchicksrockuk (Sep 28, 2007)

Blackjack said:


> ...Holy shit, was this thread just Godwinned?
> .



I do believe you are right  

We need to make these laws of the interweb more known about! I suggest skywriting.


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## troubadours (Oct 1, 2007)

prplecat said:


> Sorry, that's not my job, and I'm NOT taking it on. The world at large has piled more on my ample shoulders than belongs there, anyway. I want a partner that is a fully responsible adult, capable of the love and respect that I can only get from an all-the-way-grownup man, and I will accept no less. Face it, I'm already raising one young'un by myself...why would I want to make it two?



of course i don't have as many responsibilities as you (children) but i can still completely agree. no one should have to be accountable for their partner's actions.


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## Zekeman25 (Oct 1, 2007)

there sure is alot of pent up aggression on these boards.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 1, 2007)

Zekeman25 said:


> there sure is alot of pent up aggression on these boards.




....and humour....and kindness, and intelligence, and laughter....and....


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## EJKorvette (Oct 1, 2007)

Ella Bella said:


> Why does it have to be that they were conditioned to think taller men are attractive? Can't it just be that they prefer taller men? I mean if FA's can have a preference for FAT women, can't fat women have a preference in men?



whenever I mention that the "size acceptance" movement is not so "size accepting".

Most men "prefer" women who aren't fat. Why try to change their minds then?

EJKorvette


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## RedVelvet (Oct 1, 2007)

EJKorvette said:


> whenever I mention that the "size acceptance" movement is not so "size accepting".
> 
> Most men "prefer" women who aren't fat. Why try to change their minds then?
> 
> EJKorvette




Who is trying to change their minds?


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## Tina (Oct 1, 2007)

Ella Bella said:


> Why does it have to be that they were conditioned to think taller men are attractive? Can't it just be that they prefer taller men? I mean if FA's can have a preference for FAT women, can't fat women have a preference in men?


It is true, though, that women are conditioned to be attracted to taller men. What's the oft-used saying, "tall, dark and handsome." Think about it. Even actors in films are filmed in ways so it appears they are taller. Who knew Tom Cruise was somewhat 'short' until he stood on the red carpet next to Nicole Kidman? Shorter men are stereotyped with the notion that they are less virile, less manly, weaker, more feminine, and any number of things. Often they are accused of having a Napoleon Complex if they display too much confidence.

Many women prefer a bigger guy, and some would say that goes back to our old genetic code that would tell us that a larger man could protect us more effectively. I'm not saying we cannot, and don't, fight against such notions, but really, short men are often even less sought-after than fat men. If you're both, you're doubly screwed in this society. Mis-perceptions based upon ignorance they are.


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## tonynyc (Oct 2, 2007)

Well since I can't be 6 feet tall - I'll opt for being 6 feet wide. 
<--- Off to the Gym


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## Sanders (Oct 2, 2007)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Exactly. They go online, talk with BBW, look at pictures and sign off and go back to their skinny wives or girlfriends.
> 
> I hate to say it, but it needs to be said. I have no sympathy for these in the closet men. Of course, I sympathize with the women, but I doubt any of them would want to be with some one who acts so cowardly anyway.
> 
> Their loss is my gain. That is all I'm saying.


At least fat women get SOME attention, even if it's internet based. (Straight) fat guys have the four or five women on the BHM board and a bunch of guys pretending to be the other four or five. I've yet to meet any of these FFAs IRL, are they in the "closet" as well?


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## supersoup (Oct 2, 2007)

Sanders said:


> At least fat women get SOME attention, even if it's internet based. (Straight) fat guys have the four or five women on the BHM board and a bunch of guys pretending to be the other four or five. I've yet to meet any of these FFAs IRL, are they in the "closet" as well?



just for the record, i'd like to throw it out there that not ALL fatty ladies get attention, even internet based. if we're talking romantical, i've got zero attention in that area, so let's commiserate buddy.

also, i'm sure it's been mentioned a thousand times, but it's really wrong that (in my experience) girls loving big guys is accepted much more readily than guys loving big girls. i really don't understand why people give such a shit about something that does not affect their lives at all.

turds.


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## EJKorvette (Oct 2, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> Who is trying to change their minds?



movement.

EJkorvette


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## RedVelvet (Oct 2, 2007)

EJKorvette said:


> movement.
> 
> EJkorvette




Not true. Acceptance is not the same as trying to get someone to be attracted to something they are not.....its about not discriminating BASED on said size.....big difference....


Unless you are speaking of your own digestive issues..and then you are on your own.


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## nafbr (Oct 3, 2007)

Ok enough is enough.
What is it with this victim nonsense. oh, gee i'm fat, woe is me. oh, I like fat girls, woe is me. Get over it. Life is too short. Grow up get real. 
fat people have dealt with reality a lot better than this generation, stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get on with life before it passes you by.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 3, 2007)

nafbr said:


> Ok enough is enough.
> What is it with this victim nonsense. oh, gee i'm fat, woe is me. oh, I like fat girls, woe is me. Get over it. Life is too short. Grow up get real.
> fat people have dealt with reality a lot better than this generation, stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get on with life before it passes you by.





And With That....Nafbr has spoken.

Who are you?


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## Santaclear (Oct 3, 2007)

nafbr said:


> Ok enough is enough.
> What is it with this victim nonsense. oh, gee i'm fat, woe is me. oh, I like fat girls, woe is me. Get over it. Life is too short. Grow up get real.
> fat people have dealt with reality a lot better than this generation, stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get on with life before it passes you by.



You first!


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## supersoup (Oct 3, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> And With That....Nafbr has spoken.
> 
> Who are you?



run of the mill DB methinks.



Santaclear said:


> You first!



aaaaaaaaahahhahahahhaaaa!!!


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## Webmaster (Oct 3, 2007)

weetabix said:


> ... SSBBW it's up o you to turn us usless pathetic men into real men, od knows we don't have the balls to do it for ourselves....



I didn't find that to be true. I knew my orientation from a very young age. It was always with me. Initially it puzzled me and I didn't know what to make of it. I was just a teen then. I thought maybe all men had those fantasies and maybe there was just a difference between private fantasies and real life. Then I realized I wanted more than just fantasies, I wanted the real thing. It was a learning process, about myself and the world at large. I had some great long correspondences with others who felt like I did, and eventually learned what I wanted and needed out of life. So I set out to find the partner I had always dreamed of, and never looked back.


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## MrChipz (Oct 5, 2007)

On this forum, it's easy to forget that most big women do *not *think of themselves as "BBW." They accept the conventional fat = repulsive dogma, and are suspicious as hell of any man who shows an interest, especially one who says he finds them attractive because they're fat. An FA who posts here will never hear "Go away, you pervert!" or face the silent assumption that he must be running a scam.


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## SamanthaNY (Oct 5, 2007)

You're painting with a rather broad brush there, don't you think?


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 5, 2007)

MrChipz said:


> On this forum, it's easy to forget that most big women do not think of themselves as "BBW." They accept the conventional fat = repulsive dogma, and* are suspicious as hell of any man who shows an interest because they are fat *. An FA who posts here will never hear "Go away, you pervert!" or face the silent assumption that he must be running a scam.



As a woman, I am "suspicious" of any man that spends too much talking about my looks/appearance. Why? Because 9 out of ten men, or more, usually approach you simply because they only want sex and nothing else from or with you. This is a built in defense system that has arisen from being a female in this society and has nothing to do with being a BBW or my self esteem.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 6, 2007)

Whoa. I finally got time to read this thread. Good chatter. I wish I coulda rep'd a few, but I'm out. <snaps>

One chord this thread struck with me is the issue of self-respect and self-confidence. Of course, it's not news. Approaching someone with erotic interests is loaded with landmines no matter what you're "preference." It's no excuse. It's just true. FA's are real. BBW's are, obviously, too. But getting them together in a culture that infuses us with the behavior and expectations of customers vs. companions makes laying the groundwork for getting together with the "Mr(s). Right" hard enough, let alone "Mr(s) Right Now."

I think self-respect is a high commodity, and more could be spread around the fat and fat-lovin community. "The World" isn't going to hand it out...and frankly, once it does and you do find yourself "in the norm," you have to play the game in order to keep it. Bleh. Loving yourself for being different is more authentic, durable, and lends to the erotic. 

Being fat and/or lusting after fat folk just makes having self-respect even more important, it seems to me. And, if Dimensions does something for fat folk and those who lust after them, I hope it's that....being a community of those you can at least identify with can lay the groundwork for better self-respect "out there." This is, perhaps, especially true for FA's who can "pass." As we've been reminded many times, in a world that hates fat, fat folk can't hide or "pass." They're fat. 

I know Dim is a utopia. I hear and understand from some BBW's that you can get to a point where holding up your self-confidence as a fat+woman is hard doing it alone. I empathize with women who don't have patience for closeted FA's or FA's that aren't ready to let a fat girl know how electric they make them feel - even if its just at first site. Call me romantic, but everyone - at some point - deserves to be loved like that. I know part of being a FA for me was wanting to make a fat girl feel that way. 

It's been my experience that growing self-respect and self-confidence for who you are grows when you're with someone who also has some. Each is ultimately responsible for having enough of their own to be in an real life open, affectionate, and attentive relationship. Online might be a good place to start...or stay, if that's your thing. But, I think the actions off-screen. 

Online FA's do miss out. The freedom you experience when you have enough self-respect and confidence to be yourself in public, alone, is like new life. But, loving on a fat girl you find irrestible is just that more erotic.  Go for it.


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## cute_obese_girl (Oct 6, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> As a woman, I am "suspicious" of any man that spends too much talking about my looks/appearance. Why? Because 9 out of ten men, or more, usually approach you simply because they only want sex and nothing else from or with you. This is a built in defense system that has arisen from being a female in this society and has nothing to do with being a BBW or my self esteem.



Exactly GEF. There is a line fellas between complimenting a woman and treating her like a sex object. I promise the line isn't hard to find, but some men still go so far past it I should have my own gas station along the way.



MrChipz said:


> On this forum, it's easy to forget that most big women do *not *think of themselves as "BBW." They accept the conventional fat = repulsive dogma, and are suspicious as hell of any man who shows an interest, especially one who says he finds them attractive because they're fat. An FA who posts here will never hear "Go away, you pervert!" or face the silent assumption that he must be running a scam.



Men, if you have ever heard "go away, you pervert" then seriously rethink you're approach. This has nothing to do with her self esteem.


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## Fascinita (Oct 6, 2007)

bigplaidpants said:


> I know Dim is a utopia. ... I empathize with women who don't have patience for closeted FA's or FA's that aren't ready to let a fat girl know how electric they make them feel - even if its just at first site.
> ...
> 
> Online FA's do miss out. The freedom you experience when you have enough self-respect and confidence to be yourself in public, alone, is like new life. But, loving on a fat girl you find irrestible is just that more erotic. Go for it.



It was my experience that when I first discovered online fat-acceptance, about seven or eight years now, I felt happily giddy at my good fortune (<i>wow, a place where fat appears to be desirable!</i>), at having found a new lease on life, so to speak, through this new means of reaching other people.

That lasted about a year, after which it started to become apparent that though I was "meeting" lots of people, among them more than a few men who professed adoration for fat women, very few of these online relationships every blossomed into much in the non-virtual world. Another year or so of exploring the virtual world and I was ready to be rid of the online fantasy for good. So many of the "relationships" I'd tried to forge online had evaporated without ever delivering on their promise. Real energy, hope, emotion had gone into these friendships and/or romantic exchanges. Bonds felt like they had been made--maybe even bilaterally--yet there was always the itch that couldn't be scratched (no, you dirty-minded fools!), the desire to be close that somehow never merited attention. Once, I actually met a professed "BBW lover" only to have him confess, ten minutes into our coffee date, that he had never dated a fat woman, and that being out in public with one then, during our date, was making him feel so umcomfortable he was dizzy. He apologized for having to leave soon--he felt so bad, you could see that--yet he walked off anyway and left me there, feeling misled, stunned that anyone could be that ashamed of himself and yet have such a poor sense of how to treat another human.

When it came to online dating, most particularly, the return on my investment seemed always to fall well short of what anyone might expect, given the initial adoring talk that I would hear typically on meeting "FAs" ("talk" online, you know what I mean... e-mail and chat and such). Being a person more less with a healthy self-love, I eventually got tired of the shenanigans. One day I simply stopped putting that energy, hope, emotion into socializing online. It had been exciting awhile, but eventually disappointing, too. Who in their right mind would want to continue pumping fuel into a machine that grinds its gears along noisily enough, but never actually moves an inch?

And that's why I stopped believing in the myth of online socializing and/or romance. The internet doesn't make a good substitute for real people with real flesh and real touch and real smiles and real twinkle in their eyes. Though <i>that</i> doesn't explain why I'm posting here this morning  And, of course, I could be wrong entirely.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 6, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> It was my experience that when I first discovered online fat-acceptance, about seven or eight years now, I felt happily giddy at my good fortune .....
> 
> ....And that's why I stopped believing in the myth of online socializing and/or romance. The internet doesn't make a good substitute for real people with real flesh and real touch and real smiles and real twinkle in their eyes. Though <i>that</i> doesn't explain why I'm posting here this morning  And, of course, I could be wrong entirely.



Fascinita, thanks for the reply!

I, for one, never got into the online dating sceen. Perhaps, that's why my perspective is, perhaps, so naive.

As I try to make sense out of stories like yours, I usually go to two places (besides, hopefully, just being a good listener  ). One the one hand, I remember when I was a teenager and in early college how confused and unsettled I was about myself and my sexual-identity. I am embarrassed about it now. :blush: I didn't know the term FA. Dim wasn't there for me to read the experiences of other FA's and self-confident BBW's to help me think about fat-erotics they way I do now. Plain and simple, my sense of myself was undeveloped, therefore insecure. This was a time when I would have been uncomfortable dating anyone that others would chide me for - fat or whatever. It didn't stop me from dating some big girls. But, all the same, I was young, unwise to the fat eroticism, and oblivious. You add a little male arrogance and low-level of self-repect to this scenario, you get an asshole. I would have been more of the "can't live with myself for hurting you" type. I'm glad I'm over that. 

One the other hand, there is the flat reality that dating and finding "that someone" if just damn hard. Attraction brings most of us through the land of insecurity. On top of that, places like Dim, but more explicitly, the movies, TV, etc. can get us all thinking that romance is the answer to so many of our existential problems and prayers. We all fantasize, fat fantasies or not, about various mixtures of perfect sex and landing the one. I can only go on my own experience as someone married for 10 years. Before I was married, the longest relationship I had was 2 months, and it was tortured. I was young and a mess due to some of my own history and circumstances. It wasn't until I made some committments and stayed with them that I could get a relationship to stick and grow.

Being an FA, overall, I think is a kink (loaded with social freight) that complicates the already tortured journey of finding love and intimacy....a journey on which you also find yourself along the way I think you're right! The internet adds another level that can both interfere with or aid things. For every internet gone RL romance, there is a dozen disillusioned daters.

To be fair, in terms of taking your FA'ism to the streets, I can imagine the risks and obstacles, both emotionally and physically, that would steer some of those energies back online. But, getting over yourself - if that's the problem - I think has its rewards in real life.

I'll stop now. I'm afraid I've just spent another post repeating myself.


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## Jes (Oct 6, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> . Once, I actually met a professed "BBW lover" only to have him confess, ten minutes into our coffee date, that he had never dated a fat woman, and that being out in public with one then, during our date, was making him feel so umcomfortable he was dizzy. He apologized for having to leave soon--he felt so bad, you could see that--yet he walked off anyway and left me there, feeling misled, stunned that anyone could be that ashamed of himself and yet have such a poor sense of how to treat another human.
> 
> .



i've repped you for this. Anyway, I have a weird thing to say about it. 

In a very practical (platonic) sense, unless the 2 of you were making out in the coffee shop (which, clearly, you were not), what's to say you were on a date-ish thing? Getting away from the fact that this experience was insulting, what I'm trying to get at is: has this man ever been around fat women/ people within his age range? Has he ever had coffee with a fat relative or a fat colleague? Would that make him as uncomfortable? I get being closeted and I get being out of the closet (what I don't get is the in between) but how crazy are you if you can't be in the presence of a fat person, ever? I'm guessing the fact that HE knew it was date-y pushed him over the edge, but why couldn't someone say: this is what I want in my life, and I know it's terrifying, but if the issue right this second is being seen, the reality is that no one knows I want to bed this woman, and I'm just going to breathe and see if I can deal with it, and be a gentleman, and then go home and evaluate whether it was, indeed, the end of the world or not. I'm sure I'm overthinking it, but this is just nonsensical to me. No one there knew you weren't his sister, cousin, neighbor, coworker. There's crazy and then there's CRAZY.

i don't think i've articulated my point well, sorry.


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## Jack Skellington (Oct 6, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> Christ...a man picks up his own underwear and we applaud.....we talk about how wonderful he is because he has the BASIC life skills we would demand and expect in our female friends and think utterly commonplace..



I gotta agree with that.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 6, 2007)

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if discovering that there are men out there that perfer fat women makes things easier or harder as far as meeting a guy who wants to be with you for you. In the beginning I thought that if I went to a size acceptence themed party I would meet a nice guy. To make a long story short I discovered that just because a guy prefers fat women doesn't necessarily elevate him above the legendary behavior attributed to most men in general. 

I want to avoid decending into a fit of man bashing, I just want to handle the kernal of truth on which most of the man bashing is based. Women have complained for years about guys who won't call, guys who only want them for their body, guys who cheat, etc. The notion that because a man is an FA he's supposed to somehow transcend these values and take care of us is one that sets us up for intense disappointment. We're going to meet the same shitheads that all of our freinds and relatives have to wade through. A man doesn't have a preference because he has some noble form of character that allows him to embrace a lower standard shunned by mainstream society. For most men the decision is made soley by Mr. Johnson and is not a reflection of what a great thinker he is. Assuming otherwise is a form of self depreciation in itself for fat women and once it is realized and brought into true perspective we are one step closer to self acceptance.

Surely this translates well in the reverse. Just because a woman is fat doesn't mean she won't be a lying assed bitch who is conceited and ignores her kids. People are people and a preference for 'this' or 'that' is not going to make meeting Mr. or Ms. Right any easier. No one expects that because a guy is an FA he's obligated to teach a fat woman poise, manners and common sense any more than a guy who prefers thin women is expected to do the same for the object of his desire. The only common thread we have here is preference and/or beign fat. Beyond that the community ends and relationships have to be forged under the usual restrictions. 




Fascinita said:


> It was my experience that when I first discovered online fat-acceptance, about seven or eight years now, I felt happily giddy at my good fortune (<i>wow, a place where fat appears to be desirable!</i>), at having found a new lease on life, so to speak, through this new means of reaching other people.
> 
> That lasted about a year, after which it started to become apparent that though I was "meeting" lots of people, among them more than a few men who professed adoration for fat women, very few of these online relationships every blossomed into much in the non-virtual world. Another year or so of exploring the virtual world and I was ready to be rid of the online fantasy for good. So many of the "relationships" I'd tried to forge online had evaporated without ever delivering on their promise. Real energy, hope, emotion had gone into these friendships and/or romantic exchanges. Bonds felt like they had been made--maybe even bilaterally--yet there was always the itch that couldn't be scratched (no, you dirty-minded fools!), the desire to be close that somehow never merited attention. Once, I actually met a professed "BBW lover" only to have him confess, ten minutes into our coffee date, that he had never dated a fat woman, and that being out in public with one then, during our date, was making him feel so umcomfortable he was dizzy. He apologized for having to leave soon--he felt so bad, you could see that--yet he walked off anyway and left me there, feeling misled, stunned that anyone could be that ashamed of himself and yet have such a poor sense of how to treat another human.
> 
> ...


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## goofy girl (Oct 6, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if discovering that there are men out there that perfer fat women makes things easier or harder as far as meeting a guy who wants to be with you for you. In the beginning I thought that if I went to a size acceptence themed party I would meet a nice guy. To make a long story short I discovered that just because a guy prefers fat women doesn't necessarily elevate him above the legendary behavior attributed to most men in general.
> 
> I want to avoid decending into a fit of man bashing, I just want to handle the kernal of truth on which most of the man bashing is based. Women have complained for years about guys who won't call, guys who only want them for their body, guys who cheat, etc. The notion that because a man is an FA he's supposed to somehow transcend these values and take care of us is one that sets us up for intense disappointment. We're going to meet the same shitheads that all of our freinds and relatives have to wade through. A man doesn't have a preference because he has some noble form of character that allows him to embrace a lower standard shunned by mainstream society. For most men the decision is made soley by Mr. Johnson and is not a reflection of what a great thinker he is. Assuming otherwise is a form of self depreciation in itself for fat women and once it is realized and brought into true perspective we are one step closer to self acceptance.
> 
> Surely this translates well in the reverse. Just because a woman is fat doesn't mean she won't be a lying assed bitch who is conceited and ignores her kids. People are people and a preference for 'this' or 'that' is not going to make meeting Mr. or Ms. Right any easier. No one expects that because a guy is an FA he's obligated to teach a fat woman poise, manners and common sense any more than a guy who prefers thin women is expected to do the same for the object of his desire. The only common thread we have here is preference and/or beign fat. Beyond that the community ends and relationships have to be forged under the usual restrictions.



I agree 100%. Well said!!


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 6, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if discovering that there are men out there that perfer fat women makes things easier or harder as far as meeting a guy who wants to be with you for you. In the beginning I thought that if I went to a size acceptence themed party I would meet a nice guy. To make a long story short I discovered that just because a guy prefers fat women doesn't necessarily elevate him above the legendary behavior attributed to most men in general.
> 
> I want to avoid decending into a fit of man bashing, I just want to handle the kernal of truth on which most of the man bashing is based. Women have complained for years about guys who won't call, guys who only want them for their body, guys who cheat, etc. The notion that because a man is an FA he's supposed to somehow transcend these values and take care of us is one that sets us up for intense disappointment. We're going to meet the same shitheads that all of our freinds and relatives have to wade through. A man doesn't have a preference because he has some noble form of character that allows him to embrace a lower standard shunned by mainstream society. For most men the decision is made soley by Mr. Johnson and is not a reflection of what a great thinker he is. Assuming otherwise is a form of self depreciation in itself for fat women and once it is realized and brought into true perspective we are one step closer to self acceptance.
> 
> Surely this translates well in the reverse. Just because a woman is fat doesn't mean she won't be a lying assed bitch who is conceited and ignores her kids. People are people and a preference for 'this' or 'that' is not going to make meeting Mr. or Ms. Right any easier. No one expects that because a guy is an FA he's obligated to teach a fat woman poise, manners and common sense any more than a guy who prefers thin women is expected to do the same for the object of his desire. The only common thread we have here is preference and/or beign fat. Beyond that the community ends and relationships have to be forged under the usual restrictions.



Lilly, I think you're approaching what I'm trying to say from a different angle. One that is probably more accessible anyway. I don't want to hijack your post, but it helps me get at something that I think is haunting this whole thread. You get at it well.

Hidden inside of what you are saying is part of the big lie about all this fat-positive stuff. Don't get me wrong. Let's just pretend the whole world became fat-normal. What would happen? More fat-porn sites, fat-clubs, "fat night" at the local watering hole. Hollywood would have more fat-stars. Great. But, I dare say, becoming "normal" won't make any of us easier to love. It won't make finding intimacy and self-respect any less a bitch. 

Many men are insecure assholes who have no idea how to be "men," let alone themselves, so they mimic what they think is normative. Sex and ESPN. Cruising the tracks of socially-accepted, or even socially expected, is just the preferred way of hiding. 

Being a FA doesn't solve the equation. It can only be an important variable...and, it may not be the most important one.


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## Fascinita (Oct 6, 2007)

bigplaidpants said:


> On top of that, places like Dim, but more explicitly, the movies, TV, etc. can get us all thinking that romance is the answer to so many of our existential problems and prayers. We all fantasize, fat fantasies or not, about various mixtures of perfect sex and landing the one. QUOTE]
> 
> So true. Really right on. And your point about fat eroticism being something that at first feels strange and impossible is well taken. I didn't always enjoy my body as I do now. And it's only in the last ten years or so that I've really become comfortable with my fat-body sex/sensuality. So it's just about growing. And I think that for me, in the end, it came down to learning to move on quickly when people did not seem interested in or able to treat me well. The internet complicated and facilitated things. I like to think that I am now a much more sophisticated user of websites like this one. But it can be tricky anyway.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Fascinita (Oct 6, 2007)

Jes said:


> but why couldn't someone say: this is what I want in my life, and I know it's terrifying, but if the issue right this second is being seen, the reality is that no one knows I want to bed this woman, and I'm just going to breathe and see if I can deal with it, and be a gentleman,



Thanks, Jes. Yeah, I tried laughing about it and thinking about it and in the end I just have to shrug my shoulders and hope for him that he figured it out. He seemed to have such a physical reaction. He was almost shaking, his body was rigid and he couldn't get out the words LOL. And it was so disconcerting. Of course the worst part of me wanted to rip him a new one and tell him to grow up. But I could really see he was distressed. So it just turned into this moment when it was driven home to me just how ingrained these fears were in this guy. And it really opened my eyes. SO I guess in a sense I owe him one. ;-) Though you go through enough experiences like that and you start to pray for a break in the bad weather. Don't get me wrong, I am not miserable or anything ) Life is good in the end.


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## Fascinita (Oct 6, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> I discovered that just because a guy prefers fat women doesn't necessarily elevate him above the legendary behavior attributed to most men in general.



Hi Lilly,

First, sorry for posting three consecutive posts. D'oh! :doh: 

You make some excellent points and I don't disagree with yout on the gist of your response. However, I think what a lot of fat women would complain against is the sense that men are ashamed to be seen with them in the streets. You couldn't say the same about thin women in general, although I am sure that in the complicated world of mating and pairing, everyone has *something* to beef about sooner or later  

But do you see the difference? I hope I'm not overstating my point and irritating you all :happy:


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## Lamia (Oct 7, 2007)

There is an old joke that dating a fat woman is like riding a moped, both are good for a ride until your friends see you on them. I think this is the attitude that FAs are facing on a daily basis. Do they openly date a fat woman and face ridicule? It's not fun to be made fun of. We fat girls know that for a fact. I feel sorry for the FA out there who has to, not only face public scrutiny, but also deal with BBW baggage, hostility, and suspicion. I know BBWs who would never entertain the idea of dating an FA. I myself used to be a very hostile and angry person. If a guy approached me I would get defensive immediately waiting for the verbal attack. 
Don't give up hope. The best way to meet people is to socialize with people through groups and activities. Internet is good too, but as stated is sometimes a pipe dream. I might get in trouble for saying this, but if you're into sci-fi and fantasy go to some conventions. Geeks love big girls. :smitten: Being a geek myself I entered into that world and found that guys were hitting on me all over the place. I know some BBWs who won't settle for anything less than Brad Pitt, my response to that is I hope you enjoy the company of cats.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 7, 2007)

> I want to avoid decending into a fit of man bashing, I just want to handle the kernal of truth on which most of the man bashing is based. Women have complained for years about guys who won't call, guys who only want them for their body, guys who cheat, etc. The notion that because a man is an FA he's supposed to somehow transcend these values and take care of us is one that sets us up for intense disappointment. We're going to meet the same shitheads that all of our freinds and relatives have to wade through. A man doesn't have a preference because he has some noble form of character that allows him to embrace a lower standard shunned by mainstream society. For most men the decision is made soley by Mr. Johnson and is not a reflection of what a great thinker he is. Assuming otherwise is a form of self depreciation in itself for fat women and once it is realized and brought into true perspective we are one step closer to self acceptance.



Lilly, these are great points and you are absolutely right, but I do want to make one point. I recently thought about this because I have been dating a much younger man and was thinking about the similarities between him and some  out-of-the-closet FAs. The guy I am seeing has a stated preference for older women; he dated an older woman before me and he's told me he gets attracted to older women he encounters through work. Obviously, as you said, this has nothing to do with his character....it's just his preference. However, I think the character comes into play the same way it does with open FAs. FA men who will openly date larger women, go to social events to meet larger women, post pictures on here, etc. do seem to have a tendency to be more open minded and independent thinking. The fact that you are hot for fat chicks doesn't say anything about your character, but the fact that you are willing and able to make your own decisions about who to date and not be manipulated by social constraints or worry about what other people think DOES say something about what kind of a man you are. My Younger Guy could easily say "I don't want to be hassled about my preferences, I'll just stay home and read milfhunter.com or buy porno mags geared towards older women and get my rocks off that way, and then I'll DATE women my age or younger." He doesn't do that, both because his preference is for older women and because he really doesn't care what anyone else thinks and is strong and independent enough to put his own interests above worrying about sticking to the norm.


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## Jes (Oct 7, 2007)

Lamia said:


> . I know some BBWs who won't settle for anything less than Brad Pitt, my response to that is I hope you enjoy the company of cats.



My cat is named Brad Pitt.


Lilly: your post was right on. I'm going to guess that a lot of us came to Dimensions or other, similar, places) think it might well be different. I don't know why we thought that. Sheer, basic desire for it to be different, or hope that it would be different? I know i've had to severely lower my horizon of expectation because I think I really did expect too much, and that's disappointing. That's the tension between the newly arrived and the: Oh my god, this is so great! Finally! and the: Oh, wait, everything is pretty much the same.


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## Hamhock (Oct 7, 2007)

Dravenhawk said:


> I have been an FA all my life. I have been the butt of fat jokes because I do not hide my preference. A 500lb ssbbw is my dream girl but also as rare as a molar is on a rooster. I am not sorry for feeling that a 250lb woman is borderline anorexic and I most certianly donot wnat to be seen with a skeleton with the skin stretched too tight bones show eeeeeeewww YUK!! I am recently divorced from a dazzling 450lb redhead who had this whole dialog of self talk that espressed how she was not good enough. She hid her size in baggy clothes, walked lightly, and ate small portions when we went out. At home she would stuff herself watching the food channel all the while. ** Please see my post titled "when things go bad" located in the fat sexuality section of the Weight Board ** expressing how she was unfit to live because she was too fat. She looked at herself as being too big for the world. Perhaps the world is too small. I have lurked on the front section of Dimensions reading the articles. The BBWs I have met are always talking about how they are too big and usually have some obsession with getting thin.
> For once I would like to meet a real woman who does not see her weight as a liability but more as an asset someone who thinks gaining 100lbs would make her more sexy as opposed to less sexy. As an FA I have often pondered the question "Where are the BBWs" I mean the ones who are not strung out on diets and junk like that. I have found one such person on my end of the world through the Dims forums and chat. This FA is out there standing proud of what he sees as true beauty. Rare is the bbw who sees herself as the FA sees her. As an FA I have wondered all my life where such a woman can be found.
> 
> Dravenhawk



Not as rare as you think. I once met such a SSBBW at my local mall whenI use to frequent it. Regretfully, I never got up the nerve to speak to her. She must have had a 90-inch belly. Also, I once chatted with a 700+ pound woman who is living somewhere in my neighbourhood. DAMN IT, even though she was married, I should have gotten her addr and phone number so I could have visited them.


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## BothGunsBlazing (Oct 7, 2007)

Lamia said:


> Don't give up hope. The best way to meet people is to socialize with people through groups and activities. Internet is good too, but as stated is sometimes a pipe dream. I might get in trouble for saying this, but if you're into sci-fi and fantasy go to some conventions. Geeks love big girls. :smitten: Being a geek myself I entered into that world and found that guys were hitting on me all over the place. I know some BBWs who won't settle for anything less than Brad Pitt, my response to that is I hope you enjoy the company of cats.



yeah, are you sure that they love big girls .. or do they just love anything with a pulse? I mean, this is a sci fi fantasy convention afterall.

 yeah, just saying. I've spoken to a few of these guys and they are not too picky.

OMG .. a girl .. here? Must .. marry ..


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> Lilly, these are great points and you are absolutely right, but I do want to make one point. I recently thought about this because I have been dating a much younger man and was thinking about the similarities between him and some  out-of-the-closet FAs. The guy I am seeing has a stated preference for older women; he dated an older woman before me and he's told me he gets attracted to older women he encounters through work. Obviously, as you said, this has nothing to do with his character....it's just his preference. However, I think the character comes into play the same way it does with open FAs. FA men who will openly date larger women, go to social events to meet larger women, post pictures on here, etc. do seem to have a tendency to be more open minded and independent thinking. The fact that you are hot for fat chicks doesn't say anything about your character, but the fact that you are willing and able to make your own decisions about who to date and not be manipulated by social constraints or worry about what other people think DOES say something about what kind of a man you are. My Younger Guy could easily say "I don't want to be hassled about my preferences, I'll just stay home and read milfhunter.com or buy porno mags geared towards older women and get my rocks off that way, and then I'll DATE women my age or younger." He doesn't do that, both because his preference is for older women and because he really doesn't care what anyone else thinks and is strong and independent enough to put his own interests above worrying about sticking to the norm.



I agree completely with you LoveBHMS. I think that having desires that stray from the status quo has nothing to do with character, it is how the person handles it that speaks volumes. 



Fascinita said:


> Hi Lilly,
> 
> First, sorry for posting three consecutive posts. D'oh!
> 
> ...



I think that a fat woman is much more likely to face that kind of prejudice yet at the same time I don't think it's fair to assume that just because a woman is thin she will never meet a sniveling dog like the one you had the pleasure of dining with. Anyone can have the poor misfortune to wind up involved with someone like that and though it might not manifest in the form that yours did it will come out in ways more subtle and harder to recognize. There are women out there who will hide their boyfriend from their friends because he runs a hot dog stand while all her friends are engaged to doctors, lawyers and sons of millionaires and sporting huge engagement rings. This speaks to the woman's character


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## Tina (Oct 8, 2007)

bigplaidpants said:


> Being a FA doesn't solve the equation. It can only be an important variable...and, it may not be the most important one.


Exactly, Matt. All it means is that there is one thing the woman likely won't have to worry about and that is fat-bashing from him. She can at least feel reasonably secure that he might be admiring rather than disparaging. Everything else from there is up for grabs just as much as in the rest of the world, because nothing about being fat or loving fat bods makes anyone nobler, kinder, more compassionate, or more intelligent. Or less nasty and full of faults. We're just peoples, peoples.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

Tina said:


> Exactly, Matt. *All it means is that there is one thing the woman likely won't have to worry about and that is fat-bashing from him.* She can at least feel reasonably secure that he might be admiring rather than disparaging. Everything else from there is up for grabs just as much as in the rest of the world, because nothing about being fat or loving fat bods makes anyone nobler, kinder, more compassionate, or more intelligent. Or less nasty and full of faults. We're just peoples, peoples.



This highlighted line is the only thing that I would disagree with you on Tina. Just like a man who is a mysogynist can still desire women, a man who is an FA can still hate the very sight of you and all that you represent to him. I've had the misfortune of seeing it for myself so I know that they exist. He'll hiss and call you a smelly fat pig in a minute and he'll mean every word.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 8, 2007)

I realized this morning, I had a question. In so many words, I've heard other women on here already indicate it. But, I want to be clear.

"Online FA's" miss out on real life. So what?! As a fellow male, it isn't lost on me that this thread started with Conrad (i.e. male). And, perhaps, this is a male on male discussion. The onus falls on FA's.

Being an out-FA doesn't fit the social coding for what "an appropriate male" or "successful male" is. (Blah, blah, blah...I know.) Men have to deal with that. I, for one, don't think the answer is in making fat eroticism and fat love normative. Accepted, yes. But, not normative.

I'm not suggesting sympathy for FA's. I have a two sided reaction to the issue behind this thread: On the one hand, I'm like Stan - I wish there was some direct way FA's could do something about it. I applaud (again) Conrad for instigating this journey and open up the world of Dim. But, it hasn't closed the gap. I find myself ironically in the same situation as many BBW's - here I am, online. Why? For one, I don't know any out and open FA's in real life. Dim is my little fat utopia. If I went to some events, I would meet FA's. But, I haven't. And, I wouldn't go for the same reasons as others. I'm married (10 years ago) and wrapped up in family life in a big city. Besides, I don't swing, so the lure of sexual gratification isn't a motivation. 

On the other hand, I have little sympathy for FA's who are allured by fat women and can't come to grips with it, therefore they can't deal with fat women as _women _- with honesty, self-respect, and passion in public. I react similarly to many of the BBW's I've seen here. Too much freight. Some of these FA's aren't (just?)closeted. They're insecure, unripe. They don't know themselves, yet. I know 50 and 60 year old men who don't know themselves or their sexuality either. Staying in convention, they never indulged or explored it. Subliminating it all online is something I think loads of people do, not just FA's. The internet is a refuge and sanctuary of secrets for so many things....I know I'm not saying anything new here.

I'm a bit embarrassed to say all this. In a way, I realize this may seem like this just another johnny-come-lately to the obvious. My only contribution, perhaps, is this question -

Let's say this thread started in the right place - with out and (relatively) self-secured FA's dismayed with other men in their behavior with fat-women. What should we do about it? What can we do about it? 

Some disclaimers/clarifications: a) I know this is a merry-go-round. I know it's this has been hashed. I realize a post like this might even draw this thread to a close.   But, it comes back up because an answer hadn't come to it, yet. b) I also understand many BBW's are sick of this and don't want to hear it. I understand that. "Men are assholes" is an honest and easy response. It covers alot of ground. But, it doesn't help close the gap.

So, maybe, I'm asking the men.....and anybody can respond who wants to.


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## Tina (Oct 8, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> This highlighted line is the only thing that I would disagree with you on Tina. Just like a man who is a mysogynist can still desire women, a man who is an FA can still hate the very sight of you and all that you represent to him. I've had the misfortune of seeing it for myself so I know that they exist. He'll hiss and call you a smelly fat pig in a minute and he'll mean every word.



Hi Lilly.  That's why I said "likely." I do know that there will be exceptions, but as a rule, an out FA is not going to do that. I believe those men do exist, but are not the larger number of men, in general, or FAs, in particular.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

Yesterday was my family's annual Fall Outing and I was standing around the grill with some of the males in my family and their friends. They are NOT size accepting and none of them are FA's. The things they say about women sometimes... pretty embarrassing but I digress. We were having a cultural conversation and something in it reminded me of Fascinita's story about the guy who stiffed her on her date. I told them the story and they looked at me as if I were making it up. I said no, this dude was really so freaked out about being seen with a fat woman that he took off into the night. They were incredulous at the absurdity of the whole thing and nearly laughed at how silly that guy was. They though very poorly of this guy, commenting about how does anyone in the restaurant know that he's not eating with a relative or a client or something? They thought he was insane in the membrane though I don't think any of them would ever date a fat woman. Just not their thing. 

I often marvel at how easy it is for people on the outside of a situation to trivialize the feelings of the person who is going through something. This can be annoying yet in the instance where the trauma is due to a perception of what other people will think it is wise to take heed of the voice of the masses. Let's take the focus off of fat for a minute and replace it with another concept. My brother's friend dates an earthy crunchy woman who is young and attractive but all his friends rag on her because she makes these sculptures out of metal and wire. She's got her own studio, been featured in different galleries and goes into great detail about the new agey concepts behind each sculpture but they still look like mangled polished metal -- and she speaks with a soft high voice. They mimic her voice and get a good laugh at her ethnic art, all in "men behaving badly" fashion. 

Gawd, how stupid of Todd if he ever dumped Beth because his friends made fun of her. What would you say to him to get him to change his mind and not dump his girlfriend over these stupid remarks? You can tell him he is reading too much into what other people say but that still isn't going to change how he feels. If he told his friends what their joking makes him 'feel' the joking would get worse! 

Ribbing and course joking is never going to go away and some people, no matter how hard they try, just can't deal. As much as you may want to help, you can't. They are the ones who have to walk in their own shoes and if the stress is stronger than their desire or feelings for their beloved they're going to bolt. Just keep being an inspiration and the ones who will, will. The ones who won't, I'm afraid there is nothing you can do short of tattooing "Loves a New Age 'lilith fair' sculpture freak" on his forehead and forcing him to deal. 




bigplaidpants said:


> I realized this morning, I had a question. In so many words, I've heard other women on here already indicate it. But, I want to be clear.
> 
> "Online FA's" miss out on real life. So what?! As a fellow male, it isn't lost on me that this thread started with Conrad (i.e. male). And, perhaps, this is a male on male discussion. The onus falls on FA's.
> 
> ...


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## Jes (Oct 8, 2007)

You know, I've noticed that a lot of guys have a lot of trouble with other guys dating anyone.  Know what I mean? So many 'ball and chain' jokes. The worst thing a guy can be, often, is pussy whipped, and it takes almost nothing for a guy to tell another guy he's being pussy whipped. There's a lot of razzing by friends that goes on when any guy dates any woman, I think. More than I've ever known from women. Anyone else think that's true? Are guys afraid they'll lose their friends? Are they jealous because they're not dating themselves? Do they think there's something inherently feminine (thus, bad) in being involved with someone other than themselves? I don't know. 

Now, what happened to Fascinta is several steps beyond this, certainly, but if you're already going to get razzed by your guy friends for dating ANY woman, than I imagine the stakes increase when you're dating someone outside the box in some way, right? 

that's crazy. I have this sense that all most people want, deep down, is to find a someone, or someones, who like them, appreciate them, support them and are compatible with them (in a variety of ways). Why we all seem to throw up so many roadblocks to that, I don't know.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 8, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Yesterday was my family's annual Fall Outing and I was standing around the grill with some of the males in my family and their friends. They are NOT size accepting and none of them are FA's. The things they say about women sometimes... pretty embarrassing but I digress. We were having a cultural conversation and something in it reminded me of Fascinita's story about the guy who stiffed her on her date. I told them the story and they looked at me as if I were making it up. I said no, this dude was really so freaked out about being seen with a fat woman that he took off into the night. They were incredulous at the absurdity of the whole thing and nearly laughed at how silly that guy was. They thought very poorly of this guy, commenting about how does anyone in the restaurant know that he's not eating with a relative or a client or something? They thought he was insane in the membrane though I don't think any of them would ever date a fat woman. Just not their thing.



Lilly, thanks for taking me up. On this point, I am suspicious that this is a case of "easier to see the ridiculousness of another." We live in a world where "acceptance" is dogma - even if we don't do it ourselves. The real test is not men all around each other agreeing, but a man disagreeing with his peers. "Being different" was something that Fascinita's date just couldn't do. You're point about Todd telling his friends what his friends ribbing makes him feel is my case in point. 

Are we agreeing, then?



LillyBBBW said:


> I often marvel at how easy it is for people on the outside of a situation to trivialize the feelings of the person who is going through something. This can be annoying yet in the instance where the trauma is due to a perception of what other people will think it is wise to take heed of the voice of the masses. Let's take the focus off of fat for a minute and replace it with another concept. My brother's friend dates ...[clipped for length] ....They are the ones who have to walk in their own shoes and if the stress is stronger than their desire or feelings for their beloved they're going to bolt. Just keep being an inspiration and the ones who will, will. The ones who won't, I'm afraid there is nothing you can do short of tattooing "Loves a New Age 'lilith fair' sculpture freak" on his forehead and forcing him to deal.



The struggle I have with this is that, while we maybe in overall agreement on our conclusion, it doesn't answer the question for me. I can just as easily empathize with an insecure FA as I can with a BBW like Fascinita who just got erased by a man's shame. But, somewhere, I make a decision. BBW's certainly aren't victims. I'm never going to paint them that way. But, I choose the outrage of a woman in a fat-phobic and (still) mysogynist culture over a "closeted" or self-conscious FA. I empathize, but I've stood in that rain. It's cold and bitter, and there's a better place. The tragedy is that, in the end, both BBW's and insecure FA's are on their own to hold and cherish they're own self-respect and confidence....when _at least_ solidarity on bucking a world committed to demonizing fatness could at least form a reason for them to hold a level of solidarity together. I think that's where some of the frustration is.

You're point about not being able to do anything to change those who can't deal with it or themselves (to paraphrase) - is true. But, it is obviously a bitter pill for someone in a size-acceptance movement and also trying to make a difference by first accepting themselves. Please!, don't hear me preaching to you. I know you and any BBW know this better than I. I'm simply voicing my resistance toward resignation in this thread. While I'm not a BBW (though sometimes I fantasize.....  ), I want to believe that the freedom and fruits of fat-eroticism can find its way off-line, too.



Jes said:


> You know, I've noticed that a lot of guys have a lot of trouble with other guys dating anyone.  Know what I mean? So many 'ball and chain' jokes. The worst thing a guy can be, often, is pussy whipped, and it takes almost nothing for a guy to tell another guy he's being pussy whipped. There's a lot of razzing by friends that goes on when any guy dates any woman, I think. More than I've ever known from women. Anyone else think that's true? Are guys afraid they'll lose their friends? Are they jealous because they're not dating themselves? Do they think there's something inherently feminine (thus, bad) in being involved with someone other than themselves? I don't know.
> 
> Now, what happened to Fascinta is several steps beyond this, certainly, but if you're already going to get razzed by your guy friends for dating ANY woman, than I imagine the stakes increase when you're dating someone outside the box in some way, right?
> 
> that's crazy. I have this sense that all most people want, deep down, is to find a someone, or someones, who like them, appreciate them, support them and are compatible with them (in a variety of ways). Why we all seem to throw up so many roadblocks to that, I don't know.



You - as usual - zero in on something that (for me) is an insideous contradiction of maleness - its simultaneous homosociality and homophobia. Men *do *razz their kind of finding love anywhere. I do think there's a masochism in male identity that is miserable and wants everyone else to be. Honestly, it's sublimated on the sports field and Wall Street. Competition is the religious expression of relentless scarcity. Most real men I've really known are deeply lonely. They're also deeply afraid of this feeling being the final say in their lives.

Of course, not all men are that way. Generalizations are just that. But, I think there's something deeply male about it all. Straight men who aren't married are generally homosocial. Being with their own is better than being alone. They clique; it's socialized everywhere - the bar, watching ESPN. 

To a man is to be a "man's man." You ever deconstruct those words with a queer eye? 

Whenever someone breaks out of the homosocial bond and finds someone or a potential someone, they get flack for going against the hole reason for homosociality, i.e. (straight) men with (straight) men. Men who genuinely want to be with men (how straight men view gay men) aren't "real men."

Real men are men who don't want to be together but have to.


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## wistful (Oct 8, 2007)

One of the things that always jumps out at me whenever the conversation of closet f.a.s turns up around these parts,(I realize that Lilly and BPP already mentioned similar thoughts) is how most of us would never,ever hesitate for a split second to call a guy an insecure asshole if this sort of behavior was directed at any other group of women.I truly believe in patience and understanding and empathy but there has to be a line drawn.

Imagine if some random guy were to say any of the following: "I'm wildly attracted to my girlfriend but I'm ashamed to be seen with her in public because she's of a different socio-economic class,not traditionally attractive,differently abled,Very tall, etc.etc." 

I think most of us would agree that the guy was at the very *least*grossly immature and not worthy of any of these women....at least until he has issues all sorted out.Closet f.a.s really need to get their priorities straight.The only slack I'll cut is to younger f.a.s because young people struggle in general with learning to accept their prefences in this world,but that's it.I certainly know that as a supersized woman I wasn't given the luxury of choosing to hide.Once your past your early twenties or so what excuse is there to act this way??


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 8, 2007)

Well maybe the answer is much closer than you think. Maybe you ought to aks yourself this question, and be honest with yourself: Is there something anyone could have done or said that would have made you come wholly into yourself earlier than what you did? Think about yourself as a young man, you mindset at that time in your life whilst at the threshold of watching that big fat hottie walk by and finish the following sentence: "I really wish that there were someone there to come along side me and _______ and it would have made a big difference." Once you discover those answers, be that person for someone else. Its the best we can do.

If this does not work for the people you believe in, what then? There will come a point in time when you will be forced to acknowledge that all closet FAs are not inherently good or well intended like you are. I've been there.


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## Fascinita (Oct 9, 2007)

Jes said:


> Now, what happened to Fascinta is several steps beyond this, certainly, but if you're already going to get razzed by your guy friends for dating ANY woman, than I imagine the stakes increase when you're dating someone outside the box in some way, right?



My best guess about what happened--and this is several years ago now, so I am not (nor was I ever) weeping over this, for the record  -- but I think that he was someone who was very lonely, who had all these fantasies and had looked at a lot of pictures of BBW that he found attractive and built kind of a fantasy that he wasn't ready to live.

Does that make any sense? Because what struck me is that he seemed almost shocked that "this was really happening." And I think that "this" actually happening clashed with the reality, which was that he'd come to accept that somehow his dating fat women was unaccetable. But I'm not sure about any of it.

Anyway, this is is just par for the course, right? I mean, I think those who say that they've come to see that the world is not really that different online have a point, I think. Once you see that, you can enjoy it for what it is. And I don't know about anyone else, but the older and wiser I get, the more confident and sexier I feel. Heh heh. And that translates into more of the acceptance and attention I used to crave so badly when I was younger.

The world is what it is. That's been a hard lesson to learn. But I am what I am, too. The world can kiss my ass if it wants  And that's how I've been able to get by and even thrive a little.*

*Strange thing is, though, sometimes I wonder if I haven't toughened up too much. So when I get sympathetic responses after sharing about my experiences, my knee-jerk reaction is to think "But it's no big deal, I can handle anything." But it's a nice reminder that I don't have to be superhuman, when others lend an ear and offer understanding. Thanks.


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## Fascinita (Oct 9, 2007)

Also, Lilly, Thanks for the report of what your relatives said. I haven't talked to anyone about what happened with that one guy, so even in a limited respect I am putting some perspective on it by "talking" here. This is one thing the internet is FANTASTIC at: finding that there are others out there asking the same questions, etc. I don't know what to make of your relatives' disbelief. It's funny, in the same vein, my family has always been hypercritical of my fat on the one hand, and on the other they just can't " believe" that when I was younger (and much more easily influenced by their criticism) I had a hard time liking myself, and that this led to unhappiness in my early adulthood and a lot of time wasted on moping and feeling bad. I've tried talking to my mom about this and it is like talking to a wall. So I put it to rest and just got on with my life. But I have friends also who sometimes call me paranoid when I report that someone looked like they might be having a laugh at my expense, on the street or at the store, for example. So I don't know. There is this "erasure" that happens (thanks to bigplaidpants for that word). People seem all too aware of your fat, at the same time that they pretend not to see it. Heh. I'm rambling 

Anyway, this has been refreshing for me. It's allowed me to come out of my own closet with some complex feelings. Thanks, all.


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## Jes (Oct 9, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> My best guess about what happened--and this is several years ago now, so I am not (nor was I ever) weeping over this, for the record  -- but I think that he was someone who was very lonely, who had all these fantasies and had looked at a lot of pictures of BBW that he found attractive and built kind of a fantasy that he wasn't ready to live.
> 
> Does that make any sense? .



Yes. I think that's spot on and well described. And not at all uncommon (in this realm and many others).

I understand the knee-jerk reactions, too. But remember that we're seeing this as the isolated event it is, and not judging you by it. THat you remember it and it left a mark doesn't make us think you're re-living it every day and crying into your oatmeal.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 9, 2007)

Jes said:


> Yes. I think that's spot on and well described. And not at all uncommon (in this realm and many others).
> 
> I understand the knee-jerk reactions, too. But remember that we're seeing this as the isolated event it is, and not judging you by it. THat you remember it and it left a mark doesn't make us think you're re-living it every day and crying into your oatmeal.



Yeah, you don't come off as forlorn or traumatized at all. The fuss being made is something that has more to do with the poster than any feeling that you have to be talked down from the ledge. Man, I just can't wrap my mind around that. I remember when I was 5 I freaked out because this boy named Chris kissed my hand in the playground and everybody knows boys are icky so I didn't want my friends to gather around me and sing, "Lilly has a boyfriend!" *shudders* I howled as if I'd been shot in the back. I scared the bejeesus out of that boy. Seen him on Saturday and I'm pretty sure he's over it. Eventually we grow up, lets hope it happens for that guy at some point.


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## Tad (Oct 9, 2007)

bigplaidpants said:


> L
> 
> .....an insideous contradiction of maleness - its simultaneous homosociality and homophobia. Men *do *razz their kind of finding love anywhere. I do think there's a masochism in male identity that is miserable and wants everyone else to be. Honestly, it's sublimated on the sports field and Wall Street. Competition is the religious expression of relentless scarcity. Most real men I've really known are deeply lonely. They're also deeply afraid of this feeling being the final say in their lives.



Hmmm, I was with you for the first part of that paragraph. I'm not sure about the last couple of sentences.

But to give an example of the whole attitude between guys: I have a close group of friends, who have been friends for many years (the core of the group has been together for over 25 years). Last night one of the guys sent out a mail, just after getting back from vacation with his girlfriend, announcing that they had gotten engaged. We have a history of very fun stag weekends, in which we usually push the groom outside of his comfort zone, so the teasing about this immediately started zinging back and forth over the mailing list. 

One of the fault lines when planning stags is often between the married guys and the non-married ones (more a matter of how much time and money we are willing to spend on what amounts to a vacation with our friends rather than with our families). There is often comments from the non-married guys deriding the manliness of the married ones. Presumably as a pre-emptive strike, one of the married guys addressed a message to the remaining ~third of the non-marrieds, asking what they were doing these days. In the context this was a definite dig at them, a 'hey, when are you going to get your act together and get hitched?' sort of thing. Two responses so far, one saying "having a lot of sex, how about you?" the other suggesting exotic erotic entanglements while on exotic world-trotting vacations.

To some degree, of course, it is usual male chest-beating and ragging on each other. Our old joke is that we can tear each other up all that we want, so long as nobody else ever tries to do it.

But at the same time, I think it speaks to what you are saying here. The guys who are married are suggesting that the single ones are not as mature, the ones who are single are suggesting that they are more virile and having more adventures and more sex. Truth be told, there is probably a kernel of truth in both stereotypes, but I'm sure variations within each group far exceed variations between the groups.

The one way to avoid the suggestion of being less virile or adventurous, of course, is to get attached to someone that your friends will envy you for. If they all think she is a knock out and super fun, then it is hard for them to say much. But reality is that very few people will ever get attached to such a person, and not everyone likes the same things anyway. So for almost all guys, each step of settling down will take him lower on the rankings of studliness amongst his peers. Settling down with some women will have this affect more than others. Some guys care so much about the opinion of their peers that they let this keep them from settling down, it seems. Others are either so secure in themselves, or just don't care that much what others think, or are so bowled over by the gal in question, that they don't let it bother them much.

So yes, I'm agreeing that there is an issue of how much guys care about being approved of by "the guys." I'm just not so sure on the reasons underlying why they care.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 9, 2007)

I prefer to think of myself as someone who bowls over his guy friends. To fear or think anything else causes nothing but grief.

Belief in oneself often has a direct effect on how others receive you.

I am either "that really sweet girl you blew it with"....or...."why didn't you marry her, idiot?" Girl right now........and while that means I am single at the moment (dating, but single)..I am glad my impression was a good one.

Really, really glad.

But ..I worked hard on that.

It helps if you are sane.

.........mostly.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 9, 2007)

In coming from a family of men I'm of the belief that there is no underlying psychology to male behavior beyond the concept that everybody loves a good laugh. The joke gets carried all the way down the street and beaten to a pulp but I'm not sure there's any intent. I mess with my sister all the time because she has a baby now. He's an agel till he starts crying, then I hand him back to her along with some comment about getting my tubes tied. We're in a mall and some lady's kid is acting out I lean over and whisper to her, "That's going to be you." There is a self centeredness in that people assume you are secure in yourself and that you know they are just messin' around. In the case of most guys, if they find out that you are soft on something the joking gets worse, a misguided way of saying, "Toughen up." Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but the general consensus is it's not their fault you're soft - the world is what it is so you'd better be ready. There is a disconnect from caring how the joking makes someone feel. Understanding this I had to give myself permission to stop caring what they say and get on with my life. We put the func in dysfunctional but we get along great. *shrugs* (Though I think I'm going to cut back on the baby jokes)


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## Tad (Oct 9, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> I prefer to think of myself as someone who bowls over his guy friends. To fear or think anything else causes nothing but grief.
> 
> Belief in oneself often has a direct effect on how others receive you.
> 
> ...



Oh yah, in my group, one of the guys is married to a woman that everyone loves. It helps though that she comes from a similar upbringing to most of us, has a masters degree, and is somewhat tall and generally could be described as "willowy." Everyone would probably like her no matter where she came from, what education she has, or what she looked like--but she would get full marks from everyone from your mom to your teacher to your hormone crazed friend.

Maybe I'm just sensitive on the subject as my wife is a BBW from quite a different socio-economic background, who tends to alternate shy and sarcastic when around large groups. No pecking order points scored there, and for that matter after being married for thirteen years I think a couple of my friends still really don't understand that to me she is beautiful--she is simply so far from their concept of beauty that they can't really believe that I feel that way (they don't say so, but you can pick up on it). 

I think it is kind of like people not believing that a vegetarian doesn't secretly long for steak--maybe some do, maybe some don't, but to a many a dedicated meat lover they can't see any appeal at all in a tofu stir fry, and can't see how anyone could choose that over steak of any description. No matter how good the tofu stir fry, it utterly fails to be steak, and therefore can't actually be good. Some people can take each on their own merits, some people not so much.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 9, 2007)

I understand your post..............but it makes me feel incredibly sad.

I guess I am lucky....all my friends and all their friends are really easy going, lovely, smart, open minded people.


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

edx said:


> I think it is kind of like people not believing that a vegetarian doesn't secretly long for steak--maybe some do, maybe some don't, but to a many a dedicated meat lover they can't see any appeal at all in a tofu stir fry, and can't see how anyone could choose that over steak of any description. No matter how good the tofu stir fry, it utterly fails to be steak, and therefore can't actually be good. Some people can take each on their own merits, some people not so much.


Ed, I think you're spot on with that, unfortunately. And Red, I agree, it really _is_ sad, but there are clueless low-brows everywhere, no?

I have gone through this sort of thing, Ed. Years ago, when I was married to my ex, his co-workers used to try to set him up with women all the time. They couldn't understand how he could be attracted to me and kept trying to hook him up with thin women. They would smile to my face when I'd bring the ex lunch and such, but try to screw up our relationship as soon as I left.


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## Spanky (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> Ed, I think you're spot on with that, unfortunately. And Red, I agree, it really _is_ sad, but there are clueless low-brows everywhere, no?
> 
> I have gone through this sort of thing, Ed. Years ago, when I was married to my ex, his co-workers used to try to set him up with women all the time. They couldn't understand how he could be attracted to me and kept trying to hook him up with thin women. They would smile to my face when I'd bring the ex lunch and such, but try to screw up our relationship as soon as I left.



Of all the...........%$&^* %%^ @#%%$ !!!

Ok, NOW I'm awake. 

Tina, that is horrible on so many levels.


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## Tad (Oct 9, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> I understand your post..............but it makes me feel incredibly sad.
> 
> I guess I am lucky....all my friends and all their friends are really easy going, lovely, smart, open minded people.



To be clear, my friends all accept and respect that I love her, and am committed to her, and they don't try to change my mind, tempt me away from her, or anything like that, and most get that I'm honestly attracted to her. There are just a couple who probably won't ever accept my attraction to her. 

As for the pecking order points, that is probably slightly overstating the thing. It might be better to say group brownie points. That is, there are always things in any relationship, including a group of friends, that reinforce or stress the relationship. A spouse that fits in well with the group reinforces it, one that does not stresses it. Someone who makes an effort to get together with other guys reinforces the group, someone who says he will but then ends up busy with other stuff weakens it. Someone who makes us all laugh strengthens, someone who always complains stresses, and so on. We all are a mix of things pulling the group together and helping the entropic disintegration. Those who do the most to keep things together gets, in some subtle way, a little more say in things, particularly when it comes to consensual decision making. 

My group is pretty low key about all of this, and nobody is ever going to get kicked out--worst case is nobody listens to you when planning the next get together (not a formal thing, more how much do you take into account the guy who seldom shows up anyway, and when he does isn't much fun to be around?). Some other groups are more aggressive, and people can get pushed out--although I admit I've only observed that from afar, having generally avoided such groups. 

More broadly, if you are not secure in your relationships, how much additional stress are you willing to put on those relationships, for fear that they will functionally collapse? The idea that this or that personal thing is of such concern might seem silly, but to someone who is desperate to get notice, approval, and invitations to activities, for whom all of these things are already marginal, I can see how those small things can seem like big deals. Would it be better maybe to make new relationships, where you are more secure? Sure, but that is not easy for lots of people either.

Regards;

-Ed


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## Tad (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> I have gone through this sort of thing, Ed. Years ago, when I was married to my ex, his co-workers used to try to set him up with women all the time. They couldn't understand how he could be attracted to me and kept trying to hook him up with thin women. They would smile to my face when I'd bring the ex lunch and such, but try to screw up our relationship as soon as I left.



That is terrible. Then again, is it any worse than the mother or father who insinuates that "you could do so much better" at every opportunity? Either way it is a blatant disrespect for a person, his or her choices, and the relationship. 

I can say early in my relationship with my wife there were a few people who questioned it, but after I spoke my mind they shut up and never said anything again about it. I'm glad I never had to deal with someone who kept at it.


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks, Spanky. Yeah, it really used to piss me off.

Ed, the night of our first date, my ex's mother called me at like 1 or 2am, drunk, to say "you're too FAT for my son!" (said with emphasis on the "FAT") I hung up on her. So believe me, I've heard it all. And yeah, in a way it was worse than his mother not liking my size, because at least she wasn't actively trying to get him to screw around on me. Eventually she got to know me and loved me a bit, I think. But for a very long while it was iffy. Then again, she used to call the ex all the time, drunk, as usual, to tell him what a lousy son he was.

By the way, this is what I looked like when I was "too FAT" for the ex. I weighed 240, but never looked my weight. The first was taken in her kitchen, at her apartment (back when I used to smoke ); and the second just days after, at a local park. Clothing my size back then was impossible to find (you couldn't find a 2X -- wore what today would be a size 18-20), so I wore that zip-up hoodie a lot...


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> Thanks, Spanky. Yeah, it really used to piss me off.
> 
> Ed, the night of our first date, my ex's mother called me at like 1 or 2am, drunk, to say "you're too FAT for my son!" (said with emphasis on the "FAT") I hung up on her. So believe me, I've heard it all. And yeah, in a way it was worse than his mother not liking my size, because at least she wasn't actively trying to get him to screw around on me. Eventually she got to know me and loved me a bit, I think. But for a very long while it was iffy. Then again, she used to call the ex all the time, drunk, as usual, to tell him what a lousy son he was.
> 
> By the way, this is what I looked like when I was "too FAT" for the ex. I weighed 240, but never looked my weight. The first was taken in her kitchen, at her apartment, and back when I used to smoke, and the second just days apart, at a local park. Clothing my size back then was impossible to find, so I wore that zip-up hoodie a lot...



People can be such twits! You were/are beautiful, Tina! Screw what that woman's misguided opinion of you, was...

But I can totally relate -- I dated a woman for about several years and her Mother and her Father would constantly give me backhanded compliments, and her Mother would always say..."Someone's gaining weight, isn't she?" Nevermind the fact that she was at least 400lbs, herself, so in the moment, I was enraged and hurt, later I just figured she said such nasty things to me because she was so insecure about her own fat body...and I really wasn't.


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

I think that's true, Ash, and thank you. I look at pics of myself back then and think I was cute, pretty -- but back then I thought I was hideous. Coming to love my fatness didn't happen until my early 30s, and I had to bring it about myself, simply because I was so tired of hating the way I looked and feeling like an ugly freak show.

His mother was definitely screwed up and a practicing alcoholic, so while I took it personally at times, I was also able to put it into perspective enough to know where it was coming from. She judged everyone harshly. Probably herself, too, given her behavior, but we just never heard the _self_-recriminations, only insults pointed outwards.


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## Tad (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> By the way, this is what I looked like when I was "too FAT" for the ex. I weighed 240, but never looked my weight. The first was taken in her kitchen, at her apartment (back when I used to smoke ); and the second just days after, at a local park. Clothing my size back then was impossible to find (you couldn't find a 2X -- wore what today would be a size 18-20), so I wore that zip-up hoodie a lot...



Wow, you were _stunning_! 

Isn't it amazing what we can see in hindsight, that we just couldn't see at the time? I really wish sometimes I could go back and chat with myself for just one evening, maybe borrowing Jane's Cluex4 for the occasion.

My family was never that bad, more of a "This is your first serious girlfriend, you don't have to settle down with the first girl you date seriously you know....." type of insinuation. And when we were LDR a couple of friends kept pointing out girls they thought I might like, until I made it really clear that the distance was not breaking us up and that I was not going to mess around while we were dating. In both cases I was annoyed at their attitude, but they respected what I told them. It sounds like in your case your mother-in-law really couldn't respect anyone much.

In some ways the message from my in-laws to my wife was the opposite, but almost worse. The comments that made when I was around were more or less "Hold onto him tight, keep him happy, don't let this one get away." with overtones of "YOU are lucky to have met him, and really could not expect to do that well in general, so don't let this one get away or you'll have to settle for less." Which I think was really selling her short, and projecting their insecurities onto her. It drove me crazy, for all sorts of reasons.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 9, 2007)

edx said:


> Wow, you were _stunning_!
> 
> Isn't it amazing what we can see in hindsight, that we just couldn't see at the time? I really wish sometimes I could go back and chat with myself for just one evening, maybe borrowing Jane's Cluex4 for the occasion.




Tina is a babe....this is objective fact.

I remember when I thought I was hugely fat, and was told I was...at 150 pound.

ha!...


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

edx said:


> Wow, you were _stunning_!
> 
> Isn't it amazing what we can see in hindsight, that we just couldn't see at the time? I really wish sometimes I could go back and chat with myself for just one evening, maybe borrowing Jane's Cluex4 for the occasion.


Thank you, Ed. I used to get the cliche "you have such a pretty face, if only..." comment All. The. Time. Got sick of it. Most guys only seemed to appreciate my face and my rack. There was no such thing as fat acceptance in my life, or local society. That was taken in very early 1980 and I still have my 70s hair. What's funny is that I've had lots of different styles and it seems I'm almost back to that hairstyle now...  


RedVelvet said:


> Tina is a babe....this is objective fact.
> 
> I remember when I thought I was hugely fat, and was told I was...at 150 pound.
> 
> ha!...


Thanks, Arvee, and the compliment is heartily returned!

Isn't it funny how years ago anything but absolute thinness seemed HUGE to people, family, etc? Talk about things being relative. I would love to have that body back now, today. Back then I was pain-free and had fabulous, flexible mobility. I sorely (literally!) miss that.  

Anyway, I don't mean to dominate this thread... Sorry.


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## Tad (Oct 9, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> Tina is a babe....this is objective fact.
> 
> I remember when I thought I was hugely fat, and was told I was...at 150 pound.
> 
> ha!...



Very true about Tina--why I'm in a hurry for her to immigrate to this side of the border, before congress realizes what this will do the american babe trade deficit and enact legislation keeping her back home.

My wife was told by a previous boyfriend that she was too fat, when sher BMI was all of 21. And when I met her fifteen pounds later, I could see her ribs through her skin (she is all hip). 

I have a friend who has that sort of body standard about women--anything that is not skeletal is 'fat' to him. At the least I can say that he and I never competed for the same girls....but he still pisses me off frequently.

-Ed


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

. . . .

Ed:


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## Fascinita (Oct 9, 2007)

edx said:


> I have a friend who has that sort of body standard about women--anything that is not skeletal is 'fat' to him.
> -Ed



You know... I always think, if people could respect one another's choices, if we could live and let live, we'd all be OK.

I find it really hard to wrap my mind around the obsession people seem to have to enforce our points of views and preferences on others. Why can't this one like skinny and the other one like fat and both let each other be?

Maybe this question belongs in another thread, but I am curious about what everybody thinks: What is it that drives that impulse to try to impose ourselves on others, to try to "erase" the existence of difference, to subjugate dissenting POVs? I see this impulse as related to, you know, holocausts, eugenics, race wars, religious wars--all of it. And it is mindbloggling and frustrating. Any thoughts?


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

Simply, IMO, insecurity-based fear, and ignorance, usually lies at the root of all of those things.


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## ZainTheInsane (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> Thanks, Spanky. Yeah, it really used to piss me off.
> 
> Ed, the night of our first date, my ex's mother called me at like 1 or 2am, drunk, to say "you're too FAT for my son!" (said with emphasis on the "FAT") I hung up on her. So believe me, I've heard it all. And yeah, in a way it was worse than his mother not liking my size, because at least she wasn't actively trying to get him to screw around on me. Eventually she got to know me and loved me a bit, I think. But for a very long while it was iffy. Then again, she used to call the ex all the time, drunk, as usual, to tell him what a lousy son he was.
> 
> By the way, this is what I looked like when I was "too FAT" for the ex. I weighed 240, but never looked my weight. The first was taken in her kitchen, at her apartment (back when I used to smoke ); and the second just days after, at a local park. Clothing my size back then was impossible to find (you couldn't find a 2X -- wore what today would be a size 18-20), so I wore that zip-up hoodie a lot...



The scariest part of this whole thing...in my mind...is that the younger you looks a lot like my girlfriend...

Not that it is a good or bad thing, I just find it a bit freaky


:::unrelated to quote above:::

I've never dated a 'thin' girl, and I don't think I'd ever want to. I like curves, and though I've never dated a woman who was over 300 pounds, I don't think my problem would ever be with their size so much as it would be with their attitude.

I mean, I can't get behind someone who is depressed, and self-critical in the extreme, but neither can I get behind and support someone who has the attitude of 'holier than thou'/bitchy/drama queen attitude which expects and drains so much from my emotion grid. I can't get behind the manipulative, controlling, life-suckers either.

There are WAY too many big women who reflect one of those personalities, and I think that is a bigger part of what throws FA's off about them in real life than anything else. I honestly don't think a lot of women TRY to be that way, it is just who they think they should be, or must be to find success in the dating arena. And I find THAT saddening.

I love fat women, I just can't stand a lot of the attitude that comes along with a good portion of the ones I've met, whether online, or in person. Stop acting like you either don't deserve anything, deserve everything, or that you can control everything!

I go for snarky, goofy, fun-loving, funny, witty, intelligent women. I go for a woman who compliments my personality, and who's personality I compliment. This obviously can't be determined online...because if it could, I'd likely be dating someone other than who I'm dating right now. 

One last thing I think is important. A lot of bbws and ssbbws START their dating process online, assuming they need to find an FA, or feeder. In truth, that isn't the factor you need to worry about...ever. Preferences change, people discover themselves, and life moves on. When you find someone online, or offline for that matter, make sure you are yourself...and no one else. Because there is no point whatsoever in being someone you aren't. It will only lead to woe and sadness.

Pick yourself up, be who you are, whether you think that person is interesting or not. Do what you do, be who you are, and say all the things that you want to. Because to those who care, those who it truly matters, they won't care about if you're fat, if you're curvy, if you're huge and round. What they will care about is what's beyond all that, what resides inside you, and how they love you for who you are, not what you look like.

It is the attitude of confidence without being abrasive, it is the attitude of being honest without being too blunt, it is the attitude of being you, without shouting it out to the whole world as if you have something to prove. You don't have to prove anything to anyone but yourself. Everything else falls into place. I know this because every time I stopped worrying, stopped faking, and stopped pitying myself, I found someone...and I had fun, and I enjoyed it. And as soon as I started back up with one of those things, it ended.

So, just enjoy it, and stop worrying, stop blubbering, and just be who you are and say what you feel...because those who mind, don't matter, and those who matter don't mind in the least.


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## Fascinita (Oct 9, 2007)

ZainTheInsane said:


> So, just enjoy it, and stop worrying, stop blubbering, and just be who you are and say what you feel...because those who mind, don't matter, and those who matter don't mind in the least.



Well, I for one feel like a new woman after readind this advice! Thanks, Zain! That straightens me out at least, don't know about anyone else around here! No more blubbering for me. No sir.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 9, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> Well, I for one feel like a new woman after readind this advice! Thanks, Zain! That straightens me out at least, don't know about anyone else around here! No more blubbering for me. No sir.



Get outta my head...


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## mossystate (Oct 9, 2007)

* note to self..need a much bigger pillow and more embroidery thread *


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## Fascinita (Oct 9, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> Get outta my head...



Tee hee! OT, but I've been meaning to tell you Red Velvet, in your avatar picture you look EXACTLY (and I mean exactly) like my sister. I click on it once in a while to make sure it's not her. Cuz the resemblance is eerie. In your other photo you resemble her less.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 9, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Well maybe the answer is much closer than you think. Maybe you ought to aks yourself this question, and be honest with yourself: Is there something anyone could have done or said that would have made you come wholly into yourself earlier than what you did? Think about yourself as a young man, you mindset at that time in your life whilst at the threshold of watching that big fat hottie walk by and finish the following sentence: "I really wish that there were someone there to come along side me and _______ and it would have made a big difference." Once you discover those answers, be that person for someone else. Its the best we can do.
> 
> If this does not work for the people you believe in, what then? There will come a point in time when you will be forced to acknowledge that all closet FAs are not inherently good or well intended like you are. I've been there.



Lilly, this is honest, simple, and sage advice. While it is practically true, it's also help me realize that it doesn't satisfy me, not because its wrong, but because I'm not asking the right question. Thanks for helping me get to clarity.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 9, 2007)

edx said:


> Hmmm, I was with you for the first part of that paragraph. I'm not sure about the last couple of sentences.
> 
> But to give an example of the whole attitude between guys: I have a close group of friends, who have been friends for many years (the core of the group has been together for over 25 years). Last night one of the guys sent out a mail, just after getting back from vacation with his girlfriend, announcing that they had gotten engaged. We have a history of very fun stag weekends, in which we usually push the groom outside of his comfort zone, so the teasing about this immediately started zinging back and forth over the mailing list.
> 
> ...



Ed, I'd rather duck from clarifying the wild theorizing I was doing and lift-up the truth in what you are saying. My thoughts about male identity, homosociality, and homophobia, I think would run aground in a monologue. 

I appreciate your reflections. I could use more discussions on this board about married vs. unmarried things. Sometimes, I feel like a pink elephant in a brown shoe box. I think the feeling is more a reflection on than anyone else. But, there is something about the commitment and friendship of marriage that complicates and, at the same time, excentuates some of the fat-erotics and relationship discussions I find here. Marriage isn't better per se; its just different.

The link of manliness and virility is rock solid. In the end, I'm not sure this is the most desirable or redeemable aspect of masculinity, but both men and women buy into it. And, as long as everybody's buying it, it doesn't matter if it works, tastes good, or looks right. People want it.

As Lilly eluded to, there is also a positive side of "hardness" and male-ribbing. I've known many women who prefer the company of men because they are brutally honest, direct vs. manipulative or back-stabbing, and just plain fun. Guys don't allow themselves to take each other too seriously. Guys are good at ending a fist fight by sharing a beer. 

But, around the the issue of women and dating, they can be weird. When I got married, all my male friends drifted away. I remember arguing with them if it was they who stopped calling me or I them. Both were right. I went from most days with them to most days with her.

You are right; how your spouse/partner/gf integrate or mesh with your male friends makes a huge difference.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> ....By the way, this is what I looked like when I was "too FAT" for the ex. I weighed 240, but never looked my weight. The first was taken in her kitchen, at her apartment (back when I used to smoke ); and the second just days after, at a local park. Clothing my size back then was impossible to find (you couldn't find a 2X -- wore what today would be a size 18-20), so I wore that zip-up hoodie a lot...



Tina, I have to join the band wagon...you are adorable. That second picture makes me want to pick you up in a CJ-7 or a '79 Camaro T-top with white leather interior. Boston's jammin on the 8-track.

Cute as hell. Rock on.


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## Spanky (Oct 9, 2007)

Tina said:


> Thanks, Spanky. Yeah, it really used to piss me off.
> 
> Ed, the night of our first date, my ex's mother called me at like 1 or 2am, drunk, to say "you're too FAT for my son!" (said with emphasis on the "FAT") I hung up on her. So believe me, I've heard it all. And yeah, in a way it was worse than his mother not liking my size, because at least she wasn't actively trying to get him to screw around on me. Eventually she got to know me and loved me a bit, I think. But for a very long while it was iffy. Then again, she used to call the ex all the time, drunk, as usual, to tell him what a lousy son he was.
> 
> By the way, this is what I looked like when I was "too FAT" for the ex. I weighed 240, but never looked my weight. The first was taken in her kitchen, at her apartment (back when I used to smoke ); and the second just days after, at a local park. Clothing my size back then was impossible to find (you couldn't find a 2X -- wore what today would be a size 18-20), so I wore that zip-up hoodie a lot...





Not to sound like every other bandwagon jumper. But wow!! 


Pat Benatar. That is who you remind me of in that straight on shot. 

....and I still have a thing for her.:wubu:


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## tonynyc (Oct 9, 2007)

*Tina: Just chimming in on what others have already said - great pics from the classic to present*  :wubu:


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## Tina (Oct 9, 2007)

Y'all are gonna make my head swell -- and grow vegetation. Look! It's happened already! <---  

Big hugs to all of you. Had you been around when I was younger, I don't believe I would have felt the way I did about myself. There truly are some very wonderful men here. :kiss2: :wubu: 



ZainTheInsane said:


> So, just enjoy it, and stop worrying, stop blubbering, and just be who you are and say what you feel...because those who mind, don't matter, and those who matter don't mind in the least.



Zain, I appreciate what you are trying to say, and I agree that those people don't matter. I also can appreciate how your post reflects your own experiences; but had you left off that last sentence, it would have gone down a lot easier and have been mostly a very positive post. 

With that last sentence, where you kind of slap women whose life experiences have not allowed them the self-esteem and positive self-perception they likely deserve, it ends on a very sour note. It took me a lot of time and a lot of work to be able to see myself differently. A lot of people are not there yet, and some don't know how to get there. I do not assume that my way works for everyone, as it worked for me.

When I felt that I was ugly (and was even told by my mother, when I was the weight above, that I had the body of an 80 year-old woman and no man would ever love me), and had profound feelings of low self-worth and desirability, I would not today call expressions of those feelings "blubbering." Telling someone to just get out there and "do it" is a lot like those who tell a chemically depressed person to "just smile and you'll feel better!" The only things it accomplishes is to make the person saying it feel like they're doing something, and to make the recipient of such commands feel even worse. Please re-think it.


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## Fascinita (Oct 10, 2007)

Yeah, Tina, really must agree with everyone: You look lovely in your photos.


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## ZainTheInsane (Oct 10, 2007)

Tina said:


> Y'all are gonna make my head swell -- and grow vegetation. Look! It's happened already! <---
> 
> Big hugs to all of you. Had you been around when I was younger, I don't believe I would have felt the way I did about myself. There truly are some very wonderful men here. :kiss2: :wubu:
> 
> ...



I'm just going by what worked for me. I know I may not have had to face people about my weight, but there are plenty of other issues equally as important, if not more important about a person I had to deal with. 

I have been clinically depressed before, I have been on medication, I have been down many of those roads...not all of them, that would be a faraway claim to make, and clearly I cannot in any way make such a claim. Yet, I have been there, I know what it feels like. But I was too stubborn to give up on it, and one of the things I know is that no matter how deeply depressed you are, there is ALWAYS ways you can get yourself out. 

The key is, are you stubborn enough, or motivated enough to get yourself out. I was too stubborn to stay in that hole...and I know for some the opposite may be true...they may stubbornly sit in their hole until the end of their days. But sometimes you have to realize that the only opinion that means anything to you should be your own, and as arrogant and self-centered as that might seem, it is something that helped me get out of my deep hole in the ground, and prop myself back up to start over.

I'm not saying that it is a good attitude to have AFTER you get through the rough times...but it is an attitude that helps depression, and pulls you up. Belief in yourself when your depressed, as was pointed out, is nill to none...so when you focus specifically on your own opinion, and on yourself alone, you have a chance to build walls, structure yourself, and behind those walls build yourself back up into someone you like inside. Then, once you've firmly established your fortress, you can begin working on accepting and dealing with the exterior.

It is a LONG and drawn out process, and it takes patience, a stubborn will, and a desparate clinging to the idea that you're the only one who matters. And it can work...it did for me, it worked for several of my friends...and it isn't easy, it isn't fun, it isn't socially acceptable...but it works, I've seen it work, I have done it.

And maybe that doesn't seem possible to anyone...but when you feel like you've tried everything to gain some happiness in your life...you should try this...because it does work, and though you'll take a while after you build yourself up knocking down some walls to become 'normal' again, you'll have built up confidence in yourself...

And by the way...false confidence, is still confidence...because eventually you can't tell the difference...and neither will anyone else.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 10, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> My best guess about what happened--and this is several years ago now, so I am not (nor was I ever) weeping over this, for the record  -- but I think that he was someone who was very lonely, who had all these fantasies and had looked at a lot of pictures of BBW that he found attractive and built kind of a fantasy that he wasn't ready to live.
> 
> Does that make any sense? Because what struck me is that he seemed almost shocked that "this was really happening." And I think that "this" actually happening clashed with the reality, which was that he'd come to accept that somehow his dating fat women was unaccetable. But I'm not sure about any of it.
> 
> ...



Fascinita...I scanned this post yesterday, but I reread it this morning. What a feel good. Rock on. I highlighted the good parts. 

I don't know if I was one who, perhaps, misinterpreted or over-reacted to your story. If so, I apologize for sending the impression that you were victimized by this guy. The story was just so surreal, but perhaps it was surreal because of the mystery about why the guy acted the way he did....and the fact that I just haven't ever dated an FA!  I haven't been there. 

For the record, I probably reacted to my own projection. It's true, I assumed that what this guy did was hurtful. But, my reaction about you being "erased" was because I assumed this guy was feeling the confusion of both shame and embarrassment. The fact that you felt the way to did about him and his leaving is what is redemptive about the whole thing for me. Your confidence and self-respect says alot about you. I adore this level of self-respect. The fact that you had, perhaps, even compassion for him just says how much you are above it all....perhaps, above my reaction, too! :doh: 

I ache at the idea that a man's shame (if that's what it was) could overcome him to the point that he couldn't just be with himself and someone else. I am a romantic, maybe stuck in my own contradictions. I think we do have to let other folks have their problems; say "so what!" But, I also - perhaps childishly - react to how the confusing and bottomless feeling of shame can engulf us and blind us of being sensitive to other people. 

....this got long. :blink:


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## James (Oct 10, 2007)

I had a conversation with my mother recently that echoed some of the issues discussed in this thread. In that conversation she said that she “accepted” my preference for fat women. It’s not always been that way...in fact, I’m 27 and this was the first time she'd said it. 

She and I have had some profound &#8216;differences’ in opinion over the years when it has come to this subject. I have lost count of the number of times she has belittled, rubbished, intentionally misunderstood or undermined me when the subject of fat has come up. I have heard all kinds of counter-arguments to my preference such as “you are shallow to only see beauty in fatness”, to “maybe you haven’t met the right thin girl”, to “if you really love a girl you must make her get thinner”. She is a woman with very high hopes and aspirations for her son (she was hoping for a high flying doctor or lawyer but she got an underpaid environmentalist that likes fat girls!). In her head, I think the image of me with a fat girl has always run contrary to her expectations. I don’t want to over-egg it or bust out the violins here… but I will say it hasn’t been fun bearing that weight on my shoulders over the years. 

As time has passed, some progress has been made. The suggestions of mental disorder became less frequent and were replaced with “if you must date fat girls, you should date the thinnest fat girl possible" (out of a supposed “moral” responsibility to their health?) Slowly now its moving towards acceptance that any woman I choose to be with will be on account of the content of her character &#8211; their size, chubby, fat or obese isn’t relevant? mheh… I dunno, perhaps she’s just given up? Perhaps she realised that I’m serious about the woman I have feelings for now and its hit home that this is beyond her influence, even if she wanted to do so? 

Its been a war of attrition.

I’ve never had as much grief with friends… In fact I’ve had almost none. I lost a friend when I &#8216;came out’ but that was a long time ago and looking back, his reactions and judgements revealed him to be the kind of person that wasn’t worthy of my friendship anyway.

I can see why some FAs choose to remain closeted or to live out the FA side of their life &#8216;online only’. There must be a strong appeal to living a fake life online without having to actually face up to judgements in real life. Especially if the experience with family has been anything like mine! 

However, I agree with Conrad that they are missing out…Completely and absolutely. I remember how it felt as a teenager when I tried to conform to the aesthetic I was &#8216;supposed’ to conform to and it all seemed back to front, upside down confusing and weird. Spending all of your life with that kind of internal conflict is no way to live &#8211; Dimensions played a big part in the process I went through of rejecting that conformity &#8211; Considering I’ve not really been a big &#8216;online’ person in my life, I think I lucked out finding it when I did!


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## stan_der_man (Oct 10, 2007)

I've been reading this thread, I don't have any experience with online dating because the part of my life when I was dating precedes the internet (or at least my introduction to it...) My general opinion about FAs and online dating is this: Anybody living vicariously through the internet is missing out on life regardless of whether they are a FA or a "normal guy" (whatever that is).

I don't think the problems between FAs and large women has really changed that much. The internet has changed the dynamic a bit, made contact instant, and facilitated the ability to create synthetic identities. Just like in the "olden days"... there were men who were assholes or shysters and there were women who hid things or were "mental". When I was dating, I met women through the BBW Friendship Express, I subscribed for a few years and actively advertised for most of that time. The difference with dating that way was that it took more time to send letters back and forth, your first "real contact" was by telephone, and it wasn't easy to create a bogus identity. I traveled across the U.S. a couple of times to meet these women, I generally had good visits, but nothing came of them. I ultimately ended up meeting my wife at a local Big Difference Dance.

The problem back then is as it is now; there are bad behaving FAs (I think this applies to men in general). Why they get this way, because of their reactions to women, because men are just prone to being assholes, because their mothers weren't nurturing enough... I don't really know, there are many factors. It is as it is and we have to deal with it. The problem with the bad FAs (men) is that it casts a shadow over the ones who try to be good, it taints the way women treat the "good guys" and that ends up having an effect on the "good guys".



James said:


> ...
> I had a conversation with my mother recently that echoed some of the issues discussed in this thread. In that conversation she said that she “accepted” my preference for fat women. It’s not always been that way...in fact, I’m 27 and this was the first time she'd said it.
> ...


James, this just one classic example of all of the hurtles of acceptance that FAs have to leap over. I was about your age when I spoke with my mom, outright told her that I liked fat women, and that she needed to quite lecturing me that my girlfriends needed to exercise and go on diets. She pretty much knew my preference, but it got to the point where I had to make it official and shut her up once and for all. It did work for the most part

FAs always seem to be living under a could of suspicion because of the ill behaved ones amongst us, and because our preference isn't generally accepted or understood. How many of you know what is like to be a male carrying a camera at a large size dance. Even if you just take pictures of your own friends, sooner or later you will get the evil eye from somebody. The women are perfectly justified in their suspicion of men with cameras at dances who are out to get wank fodder, but it puts the "good guys" in a position that they always have to prove themselves trustworthy and live under endless suspicion. Many years ago, I visited a girl in Minneapolis that I met through the Friendship Express. I still remember how her friends looked at me when we first met, they sized me up and I could just feel this sense of.... "OK, he looks good, but what is weird about him? I know something is weird about him but what is it...?" It was like I had to constantly prove myself and prove that there really wasn't something weird about me (other than being attracted to fat women...) A couple days after we met, (I was there for 4 days, if I remember correctly...) this girl, her friends and I were talking and joking around. Things were going good, we were all more comfortable with each other and we started having more casual conversations. It was late in the evening, I said something which I obviously didn't say very clearly (I tend to mumble when I'm tired...) and one of her friends said, "WHAT!?" I repeated myself, and she said "oh I thought you said something else". She never told me what she thought the "something else" was, but obviously I was still considered suspicious in some way. I consider myself a good person, I'm fairly articulate so I know how to "walk the line", be sociable yet still have fun and take things to the edge when appropriate, but sometimes I just get so tired of it all. I get so sick of what seems to be the constant need to prove that I'm not a weirdo, the constant suspicion of me. I know this is an over exaggeration to a certain extent, but it is something that I feel always exists in the sublime, and it can be unrelenting. For the FAs who aren't so articulate, a minor fax-paux that would be readily brushed off if it were committed by a "normal guy", can result in a reaction that is very harsh if he commits it in front of a large woman, or in the audiance of other large women. The safety of the internet helps shield a FA from this. If the FA doesn't have the support of others in learning what behaviour is appropriate, or doesn't have the whit or backbone to learn this on his own, then the cycle of living vicariously begins.


Stan


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## Tina (Oct 10, 2007)

ZainTheInsane said:


> And by the way...false confidence, is still confidence...because eventually you can't tell the difference...and neither will anyone else.


That's what is called "fake it 'till you make it," and yes, it sure can work, over time.

My real issue was with the word "blubbering." That seems to negate peoples' feelings and, IMO, it reads like an indictment. That is the thing I was asking you to re-consider -- not the spirit of your post, which I basically agree with. Not that it should matter to you what I agree with and what I don't, when it comes to your own life, but it bothered me to see that word in your last sentence and I felt I should say something.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 10, 2007)

A very thoughtful post Stan, love.

As always.

Oh...I confess..you are my favorite guy here.

YES........you are right.....there are women out there and on here that ARE deeply defensive........and that is often thought to be the result of cruel experiences in the past.

I suppose I am lumped in there as well on occasion.......in spite of the fact that I have managed to come through my life so far with good self esteem and very little in the way of baggage.

........Still.....I am very very hard on certain types of folks here....especially the clueless.......I know.

I so admire your compassion....your perspective and your kindness. 

I should like to clone you and give you to many of my friends, including myself, actually...

so........while I think this will always be tricky....and that there are no simple answers with out a truly and deeply felt cultural shift in attitude towards fatness.....I just wanted to respond and let you know how much I always appreciate your thoughts.....and the way you express them!


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## Jes (Oct 10, 2007)

James said:


> if you really love a girl you must make her get thinner. !



No offense to your mother but that's just plain crazy. Because that's why you're attracted to/interested in/turned on by fat women. So that you can...get them to lose weight. 

? Aww, poor mom. But, I'm glad you've now had a good talk with her about it all.


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## Tina (Oct 10, 2007)

James said:


> As time has passed, some progress has been made. The suggestions of mental disorder became less frequent and were replaced with if you must date fat girls, you should date the thinnest fat girl possible" (out of a supposed moral responsibility to their health?)


This is one of the silliest mindsets I've seen yet. I mean, it's goofy.  I can't tell you how happy I am that your mother has finally seen the light when it comes to your preference, and how her words are not changing you (and would likely eventually end up driving you away if continued).

James, you know I think you are a spectacularly brilliant and wonderful young man. I think it will make it much easier on both you and Sasha when she's there -- even though I would imagine that your mother has never been rude to her. I wish only good things for you in life, and I admire your resolve in this issue.


fa_man_stan said:


> Many years ago, I visited a girl in Minneapolis that I met through the Friendship Express. I still remember how her friends looked at me when we first met, they sized me up and I could just feel this sense of.... "OK, he looks good, but what is weird about him? I know something is weird about him but what is it...?" It was like I had to constantly prove myself and prove that there really wasn't something weird about me (other than being attracted to fat women...)


I really dislike this mindset, but admit that I had it quietly about my ex. I never said anything to him, because I realized that it had to do with something that was wrong in the way I saw myself and not something that was wrong with him. Exploring that within myself was part of my journey to loving and accepting my body. 

Their mindset, too, was telling. Were they fat also? Either way, it was an insult to the woman you went to meet, because it implied, obviously, that she wasn't good enough on her own to merit your interest, and that there must be something wrong with _you_ for you to be interested in the first place. Sad all the way around.


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 10, 2007)

fa_man_stan said:


> I've been reading this thread....
> 
> I don't think the problems between FAs and large women has really changed that much. ....
> 
> ...



Stan, you say straight-forwardly what makes this topic frustrating for me to detangle. You say it well here. My frustrations are not necessarily chivalrous; they are not for the protection of defenseless or inferior (big beautiful)women. (I think male outrage at other men is interpreted that way; as women "need" men to be outraged for them.) As I've alluded before - and as you state so much more clearly here - my frustration is men behaving badly. FA issues, while having some unique aspects to them, in so many other ways, are the "problem of the sexes" in drag...or, should I say, fat suit. (OK, so the metaphor *is* a stretch.)

My personal bent is - so many men fail at self-reflection or being introspective. I'm a man - I like being direct, carefree, blunt, and have a rough exterior. I like riding my motorcycle, chopping wood or itching my crotch, speaking loudly, and calling everyone by a made-up one-syllable nickname. But, I also try desparately hard to be able to look at myself, question my motifs, and check insecurities that leak out as agression or insensitivity to others. Sure, I fail. That's not the point. I'd like to see other men (FA's) do the same. And, to my great delight, many other FA's on Dim do. Others haven't seem to develop that trait yet. Granted, it takes time to learn and ripen....and, you eventually learn you learn for a lifetime.

This is an aspect of men (FA's) behaving badly that I'd like to see checked. You've always talked about ways to support other FA's, maybe help 'em get offline and into the joy of the fat-life. Pipe-dream or not, I'm still all for it.

<raises stein>  

PS...James, I haven't gotten to your post yet. Want to.


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## stan_der_man (Oct 10, 2007)

Tina said:


> ...
> Their mindset, too, was telling. Were they fat also?


Her friend was fat, she also met a (local Twin Cities) guy on the BBW Friendship Express from what I remember. Her friend was very nice, I don't fault her for this reaction to me, she was just looking out and being cautious I suppose. It's just the whole thing that being a FA isn't mainstream, very much misunderstood, and often times poorly represented by FAs (or shyster FAs) themselves.



bigplaidpants said:


> Stan, you say straight-forwardly what makes this topic frustrating for me to detangle. You say it well here. My frustrations are not necessarily chivalrous; they are not for the protection of defenseless or inferior (big beautiful)women. (I think male outrage at other men is interpreted that way; as women "need" men to be outraged for them.)
> ...


I think you are really hitting on something here BigPlaid which reinforces to me that FAs need to form some sort of "FA Mens Club" that is a "guiding light" for other FAs, and that promotes the preference of fat women in a positive and consistant way. I know this is an audacious idea, a group of guys getting together and saying that we are the elder statesmen of FAdom, here are the dos and don'ts of good FA behaviour. And BP, you are exactly right; It isn't for the sake of us FAs protecting poor hapless fat women, (many of whom could swiftly kick an ill mannered FA in the nuts and floor them in a second if they needed to...) forming a FA socitey would be for the sake of giving us FAs a better reputation, and keeping (or at least attempting to keep) the schmucks from ruining it for the rest of us. I sometimes fantasize (in a joking sort of way) that a group of well behaved FAs need to form a gang, go out there, meet with young or potential FAs, introduce them to the world of fat beautiful women, teach them what's right or wrong, and kick their asses if they make us other FAs look bad. Hopefully they'll learn from their transgressions, if they don't we just kick their asses again until they either learn their manners, or just go away. (Working out a little agression here... forgive me...)

This is a typical group behaviour scenario, of a class of people who are outside the mainstream and have no other means of keeping their own ranks in line.



RedVelvet said:


> ...
> so........while I think this will always be tricky....and that there are no simple answers with out a truly and deeply felt cultural shift in attitude towards fatness.....I just wanted to respond and let you know how much I always appreciate your thoughts.....and the way you express them!
> ...
> I should like to clone you and give you to many of my friends, including myself, actually...


That is another part of this. As you say RV, there aren't simple answers, because relations between men and women have always been complex and probably always will be. The whole FA thing just another layer of complexity to deal with, and until fat admiration becomes "normal" FAs will be a fringe element, and poorly understood. Us oldies like BigPlaid and I (you are getting up there in years too James  ) are just sick of this whole thing, and are able to see the cycle repeat itself in the young FAs. (I hope I'm not being presumptious BP...) I've read Conrad's writings on how he hit a wall with NAAFA about the whole FA thing. NAAFA has all sorts of SIGs, but not a FA sig. FAs aren't even accepted within an organization that promotes fat acceptance! There are a couple of generations of us (openly fat acceptance...) FAs now, the time is right to build some sort of structure for supporting the young FAs, but I personally have no idea how to even begin such an undertaking. Conrad has already built this thriving community for FAs and their admirerees, we owe a great amount of appreciation to him for this. But somehow there needs to be more of a focus on the FA situation, I believe, beyond just talking about it. Often times I feel that I (and we FAs) are failing Conrad and all of his work by somehow not taking this further. Dimensions is literally a world class website, even without advertising, many many people support fat acceptance. Dimensions is a blip on the world radar, just Google the word "fat" and more than likely a post from Dimensions will be high on the list of things found. But again, I just don't know that the "next step" should be, if there even needs to be one.

As for cloning... as long as getting my DNA samples doesn't cause too much pain... What do you say James, BigPlaid, Conrad and the other guys posting here?




bigplaidpants said:


> <raises stein>


<raises stein back at BigPlaid>


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## RedVelvet (Oct 10, 2007)

fa_man_stan said:


> There are a couple of generations of us (openly fat acceptance...) FAs now, the time is right to build some sort of structure for supporting the young FAs, but I personally have no idea how to even begin such an undertaking.




Still..I love the idea of a male group....something well beyond a group of young men looking for pictures.....something more than just a message board...........man.....that is so lovely....I wish it could happen.....

Meanwhile...I shovel the shite in search of the ponies.

Thanks for existing, Stan.


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## BothGunsBlazing (Oct 10, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> Still..I love the idea of a male group....something well beyond a group of young men looking for pictures.....something more than just a message board...........man.....that is so lovely....I wish it could happen.....
> 
> Meanwhile...I shovel the shite in search of the ponies.
> 
> Thanks for existing, Stan.



yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this. I was wondering what it'd be like to have an FA friend. I've come to the realization that I've never really had to fight anyone for a girl in person. I'm not sure if I should be saddened by that? I can't decide if it makes me selfish or not thinking I'm the only one I really know who prefers big girls. 

I wonder what it'd be like to have a friend who actually, wanted to you know, flirt with the same girls as me. 

I really think I should write a book about my opinions of the whole FA thing, cause I could go on forever. PM me for more details.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 10, 2007)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this. I was wondering what it'd be like to have an FA friend. I've come to the realization that I've never really had to fight anyone for a girl in person. I'm not sure if I should be saddened by that? I can't decide if it makes me selfish or not thinking I'm the only one I really know who prefers big girls.
> 
> I wonder what it'd be like to have a friend who actually, wanted to you know, flirt with the same girls as me.
> 
> I really think I should write a book about my opinions of the whole FA thing, cause I could go on forever. PM me for more details.




Write it, for Christ sake!

I used to, for a brief while...date the dork who wrote "Real Women Don't Diet"........tiresome man....

Seriously...... cutiepie...write...you are funny and witty and smart....you should write this..


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## Fascinita (Oct 10, 2007)

bigplaidpants said:


> Fascinita...I scanned this post yesterday, but I reread it this morning. What a feel good. Rock on. I highlighted the good parts.



Thank you, bigplaid (love the name!). I'm glad I brought that incident out for inspection again, not just by you all but by me, too. It had been more than a year since I thought about it and it was good to be able to air it out. Doing that might even have made me feel a little less of the disappointment I feel about that particular moment in my life.

Thank you Jes, Lilly, bigplaid, Tina and you all who responded. Really. It's hard to explain how or why, but this was a good moment for me 

All my best.


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## Fascinita (Oct 10, 2007)

James said:


> I lost a friend when I came out but that was a long time ago and looking back, his reactions and judgements revealed him to be the kind of person that wasnt worthy of my friendship anyway.



You lost a friend because you want to date fat women? Did he state his objections? Did he actually say he couldn't be your friend? Or was it more a passive falling out? I find this notion outrageous of a friend cutting another friend off because of a personal preference. It's shocking to me, actually.


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## stan_der_man (Oct 10, 2007)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this. I was wondering what it'd be like to have an FA friend. I've come to the realization that I've never really had to fight anyone for a girl in person. I'm not sure if I should be saddened by that? I can't decide if it makes me selfish or not thinking I'm the only one I really know who prefers big girls.
> 
> I wonder what it'd be like to have a friend who actually, wanted to you know, flirt with the same girls as me.
> 
> I really think I should write a book about my opinions of the whole FA thing, cause I could go on forever. PM me for more details.



You know BGB, I never really thought about it too much... I also have never had a male FA friend. I never bonded with other guys over things like women.

That would be an interesting thread, or a poll to see how many other FAs didn't have peers to share their thoughts and experiences with.

Stan


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## Tina (Oct 11, 2007)

Stan, I would bet that most FAs haven't had peers to share their preferences with, especially at a young age. I think that often, especially some years ago, being an FA could be a lonely thing in that aspect. You like what you like, but keep it to yourself because it's not really accepted. 

Now that there are parties, bashes, boards like Dims and such, I think that makes it much easier for those who prefer a fat partner to bond over it and feel a sense of community -- let alone just not feeling like you're the only one you know.


Fascinita said:


> Thank you Jes, Lilly, bigplaid, Tina and you all who responded. Really. It's hard to explain how or why, but this was a good moment for me
> 
> All my best.


You are very welcome, Fascinita, And thanks to Conrad for starting this really interesting discussion.  It's been such an important discussion that I have added it to the Important Threads list on this board.


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## superodalisque (Oct 11, 2007)

great thread!

i have a LOT of FA friends and i've noticed that none of them talk to each other very much, even when introduced. sometimes they slap each other on the back and point out a particularly hot chick but thats about it. since they feel they are strangers in a strange land, i really support the idea that a group should be formed just to get the communication going, not only in forums like this but face to face and in person. but then again FAs have different interests and often disagree heartily with each other. there is something mythic in the idea that somehow they may find oneness. to each other they probably all look like brothers from another planet. some date women of all sizes; some are size specific. some are rather average ; some have very interesting fetishes. then there is the tension around feeding... so even when they may have a physical preference in common they still have a lot of other things in their world that keep them apart. there is no monolithic FA . maybe its enough that they know the others exist and in that they know they are not alone.

as far as missing out on real life is concerned, i think that comes from an imbalance between preference and emotion. just like a man can not ignore his preference, he can also not make the mistake of thinking that sexual preference alone will fulfill him either. we are all human beings and we have to go through some things to understand that. unfortunately we often drag others kicking and screaming along with us before we really grok it.

http://www.myspace.com/superodalisque


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## James (Oct 11, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> You lost a friend because you want to date fat women? Did he state his objections? Did he actually say he couldn't be your friend? Or was it more a passive falling out? I find this notion outrageous of a friend cutting another friend off because of a personal preference. It's shocking to me, actually.



he was vocal in his disgust/disapproval to the point of being offensive (both to me and to the girl I was starting to date at the time). I chose to cut him out as much as he chose to distance himself from me. Our lives went different ways after uni and we havent really spoken since...


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## James (Oct 11, 2007)

Jes said:


> No offense to your mother but that's just plain crazy. Because that's why you're attracted to/interested in/turned on by fat women. So that you can...get them to lose weight.



God I'd pay money to see someone else tell her that!

Jes vs James' mum... that would be something worth watching!


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## Tad (Oct 11, 2007)

James said:


> God I'd pay money to see someone else tell her that!
> 
> Jes vs James' mum... that would be something worth watching!



Pay-per-View! Maybe we could make it a recurring event, with Jes traveling around to meet various parents....


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## Tad (Oct 11, 2007)

fa_man_stan said:


> You know BGB, I never really thought about it too much... I also have never had a male FA friend. I never bonded with other guys over things like women.
> 
> That would be an interesting thread, or a poll to see how many other FAs didn't have peers to share their thoughts and experiences with.
> 
> Stan



Ditto, ditto, and ditto on the other posts between you and BPP too.

Like lots of FA, I unconsciously assumed for a long time that I was more or less the only one who felt like I did. Once I thought about it, I realized that I could not be, but it was really not until I came online and found Dimensions and suchlike that I really encountered other FAs--and that has still all been on-line.

The reason that I have kept coming back to Dimensions for so long is to share a sense of fat admiration. Yes there are funny people and pretty pictures and all of that, but for me the key is totally having the chance to share those feelings.

Regards;

-Ed


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## Jes (Oct 11, 2007)

James said:


> God I'd pay money to see someone else tell her that!
> 
> Jes vs James' mum... that would be something worth watching!



Oh, I'll take her on (despite the horrible Dollar/Pound exchange rate)--but first, what's for tea?


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 11, 2007)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> ...I was wondering what it'd be like to have an FA friend. [...] I wonder what it'd be like to have a friend who actually, wanted to you know, flirt with the same girls as me.





fa_man_stan said:


> You know BGB, I never really thought about it too much... I also have never had a male FA friend.





edx said:


> Ditto, ditto, and ditto on the other posts between you and BPP too.
> 
> Like lots of FA, I unconsciously assumed for a long time that I was more or less the only one who felt like I did.....



Can I join the congregation? I, too, could use the FA company. FFA's, queer FA's, whatever. It's all good with me.



Tina said:


> Stan, I would bet that most FAs haven't had peers to share their preferences with, especially at a young age. I think that often, especially some years ago, being an FA could be a lonely thing in that aspect. You like what you like, but keep it to yourself because it's not really accepted.



Agreed, Tina. This is my story.


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## James (Oct 11, 2007)

Jes said:


> Oh, I'll take her on (despite the horrible Dollar/Pound exchange rate)--but first, what's for tea?



would a pot of earl grey with scones, cream and jam be suitable as preparation?


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## Jes (Oct 11, 2007)

James said:


> would a pot of earl grey with scones, cream and jam be suitable as preparation?



No...I mean tea in the meal sense, you know? 

We could all START with the actual tea, though.


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## James (Oct 11, 2007)

Jes said:


> We could all START with the actual tea, though.



ah yes... thats always the right thing to do


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## Hamhock (Oct 11, 2007)

superodalisque said:


> great thread!
> 
> i have a LOT of FA friends and i've noticed that none of them talk to each other very much, even when introduced. sometimes they slap each other on the back and point out a particularly hot chick but thats about it. since they feel they are strangers in a strange land, i really support the idea that a group should be formed just to get the communication going, not only in forums like this but face to face and in person. but then again FAs have different interests and often disagree heartily with each other. there is something mythic in the idea that somehow they may find oneness. to each other they probably all look like brothers from another planet. some date women of all sizes; some are size specific. some are rather average ; some have very interesting fetishes. then there is the tension around feeding... so even when they may have a physical preference in common they still have a lot of other things in their world that keep them apart. there is no monolithic FA . maybe its enough that they know the others exist and in that they know they are not alone.
> 
> ...



I was very surprised when I discovered that there were others who had views similar to mine. There is at least SOME chitchat here. Until recently, I often frequented the chatroom here -- until they invoked a policy of "no hotmail accounts."


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## bigplaidpants (Oct 11, 2007)

James said:


> I had a conversation with my mother recently that echoed some of the issues discussed in this thread. In that conversation she said that she “accepted” my preference for fat women. It’s not always been that way...in fact, I’m 27 and this was the first time she'd said it.
> 
> She and I have had some profound &#8216;differences’ in opinion over the years when it has come to this subject. I have lost count of the number of times she has belittled, rubbished, intentionally misunderstood or undermined me when the subject of fat has come up. I have heard all kinds of counter-arguments to my preference such as “you are shallow to only see beauty in fatness”, to “maybe you haven’t met the right thin girl”, to “if you really love a girl you must make her get thinner”. She is a woman with very high hopes and aspirations for her son (she was hoping for a high flying doctor or lawyer but she got an underpaid environmentalist that likes fat girls!). In her head, I think the image of me with a fat girl has always run contrary to her expectations. I don’t want to over-egg it or bust out the violins here… but I will say it hasn’t been fun bearing that weight on my shoulders over the years.
> 
> ...



On the overall topic of the thread, I fully agree with your thoughts in those final paragraphs. Fortunately, I never had any experience like this with my parents. However, being married to the girl I started dating when I was 21 - who was heavyset but hour-glass proportioned - didn't put my preference in their face. I had dated a wide range of girls; always went back to the larger ones. But in high-school and early college, never took home a SSBBW. So, in that way, I "passed" as a fairly normal guy. They had no inclining of the sexual failure I was experiencing - yet, unclear about my fat eroticism and suppressed fat-fantasies. Every "normal" girl I dated I broke up with - totally feeling like the poster-child for uncommittal and maculine usary. I just couldn't keep attraction. Until college, I didn't know why.

Not too long ago, I went to both my parents and shared with them some of my FA experiences - how I prefer fat women, women who gain, and about the fat fantasies I had myself as a child. Though my dad - the psychologist - had obvious reactions, he was honest when he expressed his acceptance. Of course, my mom (they are long divorced), would accept me if I was into alien worship and polyamory. In a word, she's taken the radical acceptance of the 60's pretty seriously. My friends, to this day, love to talk with her.

Besides the frontal assault by medicine, the diet industry, and the commerical religion of appearance here in America, I don't know what it is about fat and fatness that is so unspeakable. I life with a small low-grade madness because I'd like to talk about it more. Hence, my appreciation for Dim and interest in a FA motorcycle gang.


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## tonynyc (Oct 12, 2007)

fa_man_stan said:


> You know BGB, I never really thought about it too much... I also have never had a male FA friend. I never bonded with other guys over things like women.
> 
> That would be an interesting thread, or a poll to see how many other FAs didn't have peers to share their thoughts and experiences with.
> Stan



*
Stan:
I don't think that Fa's ever bond over things like BBWs. I can basically count 
one FA that we've remained friends since '93 [despite the fact we have the same taste in BBWs] and two FAs that I have a casual friendship with; but, the dynamics are different since we are all in relationships. 
*





Tina said:


> Stan, I would bet that most FAs haven't had peers to share their preferences with, especially at a young age. I think that often, especially some years ago, being an FA could be a lonely thing in that aspect. You like what you like, but keep it to yourself because it's not really accepted.
> 
> Now that there are parties, bashes, boards like Dims and such, I think that makes it much easier for those who prefer a fat partner to bond over it and feel a sense of community -- let alone just not feeling like you're the only one you know.
> 
> You are very welcome, Fascinita, And thanks to Conrad for starting this really interesting discussion.  It's been such an important discussion that I have added it to the Important Threads list on this board.



*
Hi Tina:
I couldn't agree more;but, in many ways despite NAAFA, Friendship Express, the internet, Conrad for starting Dimensions and this great DIMS Board the existence of an FA is still a lonely one. Sometimes the online community is the only thing around if folks live in areas where there isn't a thriving BBW Community.
*




superodalisque said:


> great thread!
> 
> i have a LOT of FA friends and i've noticed that none of them talk to each other very much, even when introduced. sometimes they slap each other on the back and point out a particularly hot chick but thats about it. since they feel they are strangers in a strange land, i really support the idea that a group should be formed just to get the communication going, not only in forums like this but face to face and in person. but then again FAs have different interests and often disagree heartily with each other. there is something mythic in the idea that somehow they may find oneness. to each other they probably all look like brothers from another planet. some date women of all sizes; some are size specific. some are rather average ; some have very interesting fetishes. then there is the tension around feeding... so even when they may have a physical preference in common they still have a lot of other things in their world that keep them apart. there is no monolithic FA . maybe its enough that they know the others exist and in that they know they are not alone.
> 
> ...



*
Felicia:
You might have something there and maybe there is a Gender difference in the dynamics of friendship. There have been studies on Gender Patterns among and between men and women. 
*




bigplaidpants said:


> Besides the frontal assault by medicine, the diet industry, and the commerical religion of appearance here in America, I don't know what it is about fat and fatness that is so unspeakable. I life with a small low-grade madness because I'd like to talk about it more. Hence, my appreciation for Dim and interest in a FA motorcycle gang.



*
BPP:
I couldn't agree more on the frontal assault by the establishment; the only time that there is any discussion on Fat Acceptance comes from Anthropoligical and Sociological studies.
*


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## Tina (Oct 13, 2007)

tonynyc said:


> *
> Hi Tina:
> I couldn't agree more;but, in many ways despite NAAFA, Friendship Express, the internet, Conrad for starting Dimensions and this great DIMS Board the existence of an FA is still a lonely one. Sometimes the online community is the only thing around if folks live in areas where there isn't a thriving BBW Community.
> *



I hear you, Tony. That's how it is where I live. If there are FAs here, they're hiding and not even letting the fat women know about their preference, let alone each other. Well, there certainly aren't any bashes or social gatherings of any sort. Some friends and I tried to put something together about ten years ago. It ended up fizzling out within a few months.


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## Blockierer (Oct 13, 2007)

Tina said:


> Stan, I would bet that most FAs haven't had peers to share their preferences with, especially at a young age.



As a teenager I had a friend who had the same preference. 
I guess we were 16 or 17 yo, I dont know exactly. Once he discovered a young girl wearing a bikini. He ran to me and called: "Do come, do come, what I have seen. There is a fat girl, no she is not fat, she has only incredible large boobs and really large hips, sure she is fat. You must look. - _And he tried to describe the figure with his hands_ - . Wow, she is fat, no she is not fat, she is sexy, I have a hard on. Do come and look."
In secure distance we both watched this beauty. :wubu: 
Guess who had a hard on too. :wubu: 

But the truth is we never talked about our preference. He knew what I liked and I knew what he liked. Thats the problem with guys, they dont talk, the only watch. :doh:


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## Tina (Oct 13, 2007)

Well, eventually, you men learn to talk. It often becomes the requirement of a good and lasting relationship. Sometimes us women have to pull the words out of your wonderful mouths, though.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Oct 13, 2007)

Tina said:


> Well, eventually, you men learn to talk. It often becomes the requirement of a good and lasting relationship. Sometimes us women have to pull the words out of your wonderful mouths, though.





LOL! OMG TINA.....yer a CHIA PET!!! lol. Rock on.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 13, 2007)

I grew up in a neighborhood that was predominantly black and hispanic and traditionally I found that men were a bit more open about their preferences there. It wasn't the show boat hoot nanny it is here on Dimension, people just liked what they liked and it was all preference. "*so-and-so* likes big girls," was all that was spoken and it didn't demand it's own arena, it was just something else. If only the reaction were the same if someone said that they were gay, but I digress. FA's often hung together not merely because they were fa's but just by rote. Not uncommon to be at a club and two friends approached me and both were interested. At BBW dances black men are far more likely to arrive in groups. Being open about your preferences is not a guarantee that you'll meet others that you'll get along with but it definitely increases the odds.


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## Jes (Oct 13, 2007)

Blockierer said:


> Thats the problem with guys, they dont talk, the only watch. :doh:



You don't say...


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## EtobicokeFA (Oct 13, 2007)

fa_man_stan said:


> You know BGB, I never really thought about it too much... I also have never had a male FA friend. I never bonded with other guys over things like women.
> 
> That would be an interesting thread, or a poll to see how many other FAs didn't have peers to share their thoughts and experiences with.
> 
> Stan



I know what you are talking about. I never met a FA, that I became friends with! 



Tina said:


> Well, eventually, you men learn to talk. It often becomes the requirement of a good and lasting relationship. Sometimes us women have to pull the words out of your wonderful mouths, though.



The weird part is that. We guys can usually bond over things sports, beer and hunting. And, yes we also find common ground when talking about (or more often checking out women), but you don't get that with most FAs for some reason. For example back at the 2006 convention, Jason was trying to get the FA workshop to find a common ground between the guys, and upto the time I had to leave, they weren't getting anywhere!


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## waldo (Oct 13, 2007)

I just finished reading the last 6 pages of this thread and am very pleased to see how this has turned into a tremendous discussion. However, I am having some technical problems with the reputation function which is quite irritating because there are some great posts here. Has anyone else run into this? I keep getting this message that say something like "you do not have permission to do that. Please log in and refresh this page" even though I am already logged in



fa_man_stan said:


> I think you are really hitting on something here BigPlaid which reinforces to me that FAs need to form some sort of "FA Mens Club" that is a "guiding light" for other FAs, and that promotes the preference of fat women in a positive and consistant way. I know this is an audacious idea, a group of guys getting together and saying that we are the elder statesmen of FAdom, here are the dos and don'ts of good FA behaviour. And BP, you are exactly right; It isn't for the sake of us FAs protecting poor hapless fat women, (many of whom could swiftly kick an ill mannered FA in the nuts and floor them in a second if they needed to...) forming a FA socitey would be for the sake of giving us FAs a better reputation, and keeping (or at least attempting to keep) the schmucks from ruining it for the rest of us. I sometimes fantasize (in a joking sort of way) that a group of well behaved FAs need to form a gang, go out there, meet with young or potential FAs, introduce them to the world of fat beautiful women, teach them what's right or wrong, and kick their asses if they make us other FAs look bad. Hopefully they'll learn from their transgressions, if they don't we just kick their asses again until they either learn their manners, or just go away. (Working out a little agression here... forgive me...)
> 
> This is a typical group behaviour scenario, of a class of people who are outside the mainstream and have no other means of keeping their own ranks in line.>



I understand the frustration over feeling like bad behavior from some FAs is painting other well meaning/behaved FAs with a overall bad reputation. On the other hand my primary reason for wishing to enlighten the young and/or wayward FAs would be more out of a sense of helping them to get to a better place for their own benefit and as an added benefit to increase the likelihood of the fat women on the other side of this issue being able to have a good relationship with a FA who has his head together. There is no doubt it is fanciful and audacious thinking.



fa_man_stan said:


> That is another part of this. As you say RV, there aren't simple answers, because relations between men and women have always been complex and probably always will be. The whole FA thing just another layer of complexity to deal with, and until fat admiration becomes "normal" FAs will be a fringe element, and poorly understood. Us oldies like BigPlaid and I (you are getting up there in years too James  ) are just sick of this whole thing, and are able to see the cycle repeat itself in the young FAs. (I hope I'm not being presumptious BP...) I've read Conrad's writings on how he hit a wall with NAAFA about the whole FA thing. NAAFA has all sorts of SIGs, but not a FA sig. FAs aren't even accepted within an organization that promotes fat acceptance! There are a couple of generations of us (openly fat acceptance...) FAs now, the time is right to build some sort of structure for supporting the young FAs, but I personally have no idea how to even begin such an undertaking. Conrad has already built this thriving community for FAs and their admirerees, we owe a great amount of appreciation to him for this. But somehow there needs to be more of a focus on the FA situation, I believe, beyond just talking about it. Often times I feel that I (and we FAs) are failing Conrad and all of his work by somehow not taking this further. Dimensions is literally a world class website, even without advertising, many many people support fat acceptance. Dimensions is a blip on the world radar, just Google the word "fat" and more than likely a post from Dimensions will be high on the list of things found. But again, I just don't know that the "next step" should be, if there even needs to be one.
> 
> As for cloning... as long as getting my DNA samples doesn't cause too much pain... What do you say James, BigPlaid, Conrad and the other guys posting here?
> 
> <raises stein back at BigPlaid>



The inability of FAs to ultimately remain as an integral part of NAAFA should be evidence to anyone who doubts the true difficulties for FAs in getting on in society. It is not just our own fears of being unfairly judged that we need to deal with/overcome.

This issue of needing some resource for FA interaction seems to be brought up periodically. Maybe part of the reason it never materializes is that the FAs who are open about ourselves generally tend to be solitary creatures. Those who have lots of friends and want their friends' approval are more likely to be the ones that will keep their orientation hidden. I realize this is a generalization that may not be very accurate.


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## waldo (Oct 13, 2007)

James said:


> I had a conversation with my mother recently that echoed some of the issues discussed in this thread. In that conversation she said that she accepted my preference for fat women. Its not always been that way...in fact, Im 27 and this was the first time she'd said it.
> 
> She and I have had some profound differences in opinion over the years when it has come to this subject. I have lost count of the number of times she has belittled, rubbished, intentionally misunderstood or undermined me when the subject of fat has come up. I have heard all kinds of counter-arguments to my preference such as you are shallow to only see beauty in fatness, to maybe you havent met the right thin girl, to if you really love a girl you must make her get thinner. She is a woman with very high hopes and aspirations for her son (she was hoping for a high flying doctor or lawyer but she got an underpaid environmentalist that likes fat girls!). In her head, I think the image of me with a fat girl has always run contrary to her expectations. I dont want to over-egg it or bust out the violins here but I will say it hasnt been fun bearing that weight on my shoulders over the years.
> 
> ...



Great post! You obviously have a strong will - many guys would cave in against that kind of parental bullying. I didn't face quite this much resistance with my parents but I do believe the harsh overall judgment of my wife bymy mother in the early year of our relationship may have been influencing by the fact of my wife being fat. Afterall my mother probably was partly coming from the typical mindset that we are conditioned with of fat people being less worthy in other ways besides appearance (lazy unmotivated, unintelligent, etc.)

The issue of health is the most difficult and legitimate issue facing FAs and I believe will only become more so as the medical research around the connection between obesity and health continues. So when this comes up as in the line I bolded from your post I feel like it really is difficult to counter this argument from our (FAs')standpoint.


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## Tina (Oct 13, 2007)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> LOL! OMG TINA.....yer a CHIA PET!!! lol. Rock on.


And you can be, too, Donni dear. 


LillyBBBW said:


> I grew up in a neighborhood that was predominantly black and hispanic and traditionally I found that men were a bit more open about their preferences there. It wasn't the show boat hoot nanny it is here on Dimension, people just liked what they liked and it was all preference. "*so-and-so* likes big girls," was all that was spoken and it didn't demand it's own arena, it was just something else.


You know, this is how it should be, IMO. It should be treated as just another preference and normal in society. 


EtobicokeFA said:


> The weird part is that. We guys can usually bond over things sports, beer and hunting. And, yes we also find common ground when talking about (or more often checking out women), but you don't get that with most FAs for some reason. For example back at the 2006 convention, Jason was trying to get the FA workshop to find a common ground between the guys, and upto the time I had to leave, they weren't getting anywhere!


I say "you men" and all, but really I think it's just socialization. Some men are very capable of having 'relationship' conversations. Even today, most men are raised, as boys, to buck up and take care of responsibilities, be tough -- all of those classic things that 'make a man.' Those things are antithetical to being the sensitive kind of guy who is not only willing to 'discuss the relationship and things that matter' but often it's something y'all don't even think about doing.

Women, stereotypically, were raised as girls to talk about things and not to act like boys, generally. So what we have is (generalizing and putting everyone into a box, which obviously doesn't fit everyone) [many] women wanting to discuss sensitive issues with their guys, and then [many] guys feeling the conversation coming on, not wanting to have it and tensing up, and maybe even becoming defensive in advance, which will not help in the least. I think that for some men, it's a relief to be around other men who don't want to discuss things. For others, they are missing the conversation and really would like perspective from their own gender. Often, us women talk things to death while our men want to avoid it. It's no wonder we can sometimes become so polarized.  I think I'm rambling. Sorry.


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## GordoNegro (Oct 14, 2007)

Good post and thread.
I had friendships alter and change when public about my preferences.
Not invited to parties as 'friends' figured I would not bring in scores of women they were attracted to. It was funny as I was not attracted to any of the ones they boasted about.
Though, overall I would not change it; as it feels peaceful to be at ease with myself than feel guilt-ridden or self-hating as some Online-Closet FA's are experiencing presently.
Though I do have to say, the R/T-Closet FA's who only greet their ssbbw dates after midnight or never seen in their or her neighborhood with them are equally as bad.


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## Fascinita (Oct 14, 2007)

Blockierer said:


> He ran to me and called: "Do come, do come, what I have seen. There is a fat girl, no she is not fat, she has only incredible large boobs and really large hips, sure she is fat. You must look. - _And he tried to describe the figure with his hands_ - . Wow, she is fat, no she is not fat, she is sexy, I have a hard on. Do come and look."



That was fun to readl Thanks!


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## johnlucas (Oct 26, 2007)

Hello. I'm John Lucas. I posted here long ago and was "run off" for my point of view.  Learned a new lesson in studies on self-image called over-defensiveness.

The problem is on both sides. The men (& women) who like fat women (& men) are too worried about "what others will think". They don't have the guts to be leaders and not followers. Admiring from afar might as well be not admiring at all. You gotta TELL somebody how you feel about them.

On the other hand, the fat women (& men) put up barriers that make it hard for someone to approach them. They beat themselves up with words-to-self downgrading their attractiveness to a mate and refuse certain people who want to get to know them.

If you see a whole host and gaggle of people who LIKE WHO YOU ARE WITHOUT CHANGE whether it be online or in a certain setting, you should KNOW that it must exist in the real world as well since online world derives from real world.

People are too freakin' SCARED. It doesn't make sense how there are 6.5 billion people on Earth and most of them are lonely. It's because they WANT to be lonely. They don't get past their mental psych routines long enough to go after the gold.

Forget rejection! I study all facets of the self-image issue from height to weight to proportions of appendages, everything. And there are some people out here who don't even know they are LIKED. They don't even SEE what fat people see with admirers and appreciators. They have it WORSE because they don't even *see* appreciation online! So for people here to lament about not being able to find anybody is bull.

Find out if the person online is nearby and hook up for God's sake! It's not hard at all. The so-called FAs? Put your money where your mouth is and go after these Holy Grails. Worrying about what so and so and whozit whazit will say will ensure you live a miserable life. Your life is for YOU not for "so and so" and "whozit whazit". If they don't approve, *F* 'em. You see the treasure and so you need to revel in it.

People are trying to make it too complicated and they need to keep it real. Let lust take over for a spell and enjoy it. Let love reign.
 
Society is supposed to make a use for every type of being that exists within it. Here we have online forums and a value-building campaign to make life easier for fatter people. And it's working. So quit being mental and enjoy the attention from the admirers. Admirers, SHOW that you admire by ACTIONS not potential.

Very simple. But people love to complicate simple things. People love to make easy processes Rube Goldbergian.
John Lucas


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## Fascinita (Oct 27, 2007)

johnlucas said:


> So quit being mental and enjoy the attention from the admirers. Admirers, SHOW that you admire by ACTIONS not potential.



Yeah, I don't see it your way, JL. I'm perfectly nonmental. I'm warm, open, hardworking, well-groomed, intelligent, artistic, honest and generous--at least I work toward those ideals, even though I screw up more frequently than I'd like to admit. But there just aren't a whole lot of men who've shown me admiration. In fact, much much much much more often than not, I've had men politely (or impolitely) reject my interest/company, explicitly because of my being "overweight" or "too much woman for me" or whatever other fat-related reasons. They're entitled to their preferences, I've always thought. To be sure, nonfat women also experience rejection and loneliness, breakups and dryspells. So I've just tried to be phlegmatic about it and stay optimistic. But as I get older and everyone around me has paired off while I remain eternally single, I have to say that I have lost some of my optimism. In the end, I find that, in my world, FAs are almost nonexistent. Years sometimes go by without a man expressing any interest in me--and I am active in the community, outgoing and friendly--not someone who's at home all the time hiding from life.

Seriously. Men just aren't coming forward, JL.

Yet online it appears to be a different situation. Men who say they like their women fat are everywhere online.

So I have to wonder why it is that though there are plenty of fat admirers online, few materialize in the real world, at least in my experience.

And when someone comes online with his wellmeaning but simplistic advice of "stop being mental," I have to scratch my head as to where your version of reality is coming from.

Evidently all of the fat admirers are busy hanging with "mental" women (you're not the first JL, in this thread, to bring up the issue of all these insane, self-hating women who just can't stand to be told they're pretty--for the record, in real life I don't know any of these women, either), who want to lose weight or can't stand to look in a mirror. Maybe that's why there aren't enough admirers coming my way.


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## lovessbbw (Oct 27, 2007)

Well, this thread has certainly raised a lot of issues and emotions. I agree that many FA's do miss out by their own actions regarding their feelings towards their preferences. I can certainly understand how a woman could be hurt and frustrated by an FA's online "persona" versus their "real life" persona. We need to eliminate the question of "sides" and "groups". One principle that I strive to practice even though I am by no means perfect and don't always live up to myself. The only thing or person I can control is simply myself. That said I think there has been a lot of generalities tossed about concerning groups of people whether it be bbw's, FA's, gays, lesbians, men, women and so on. 
What it all comes down to is the individual. While each person may have certain qualities about them or lifestyles or opinions amongst other things that may make it easier for others to lump them into a group. While it may make sense or make it easier for those that need to label everything / everyone as belonging in a certain category it does a great disservice to ALL individuals involved in the process by not finding out or considering the individual's own feelings, experiences, preferences and such that make each of us simply, ourselves. I will elaborate by using myself as an example. I am a 46 year old FA. An open, vocal, demonstrative FA at that! Just because I am an FA does not mean I think that all bbw's / ssbbw's are attractive and / or sexy. I simply have a preference for bbw's and ssbbw's. I have known this fact since I was 16 years old so I have had plenty of time to understand it, accept it and happily made peace with it years ago. Attractiveness and sexiness to me is not merely based on physical attributes. The physical is merely one facet of the individual. Now that said my preferences for fat women simply means my mind filters the attributes and places extra emphasis as to what I find appealing and desirable. Do I find “thin” women attractive? Some - but not based on physical qualities or attributes. Do I find “thin” women sexy? No - as my personal preference indicates they just don't do it for me. So now where does this go from here? Ok, so do I find all “fat” women attractive? - Some - but not based on physical qualities or attributes. Do I find all 'fat' women sexy? No, as sexiness to me is more than just based on one criteria. Confusing? Perhaps to some but is just simply on a woman by woman basis. 
I guess the final point of my ramblings is just we are all an individual made up of all the things that make us who we are. I try and know each person as I meet them. Which is one at a time, not as a 'group'. Maybe if we all could place the shortcomings we find in others on that individual and not a 'group' we'd all be a little happier. As the Webmaster so appropriately concluded in his post, "As is, so much love and passion and human goodness is lost and wasted, so many dreams dashed, so much injustice incurred, so much legally-sanctioned discrimination tolerated. This cannot stand, and hence this community exists. And I hope it keeps growing and one day becomes the norm and not the exception." Agreed. Often hearts and minds are best changed for the better one at a time.


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## johnlucas (Oct 27, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> Yeah, I don't see it your way, JL. I'm perfectly nonmental. I'm warm, open, hardworking, well-groomed, intelligent, artistic, honest and generous--at least I work toward those ideals, even though I screw up more frequently than I'd like to admit. But there just aren't a whole lot of men who've shown me admiration. In fact, much much much much more often than not, I've had men politely (or impolitely) reject my interest/company, explicitly because of my being "overweight" or "too much woman for me" or whatever other fat-related reasons. They're entitled to their preferences, I've always thought. To be sure, nonfat women also experience rejection and loneliness, breakups and dryspells.



Sounds like you have good qualities to me. Of course all men don't like fat women. But doggone it there's a LOT of 'em who do. Some closet, some open. The closet ones really need to stop being wimps about it.

Let's run through that list again.
*Warm.* Men love warm women. So many cold ones out there right now.
*Open.* Open-minded, understanding. Sounds like a winner to me. So many prudes, prejudiced and narrow-minded ones out there today.
*Hard-working.* Excellent quality. You will never be seen as a golddigger. Men don't marry mostly anymore because they feel they will be taken by some opportunist trying to ride him to the good life. A hard-working woman is a woman many men want at their side. They know they will do their share of the load.
*Well-groomed.* Good hygiene. Always a good quality.
*Intelligent.* Contrary to popular opinion, many men don't really want a dumb bimbo. Someone who can string a decent sentence together with thought is a highly attractive quality to many men.
*Artistic.* Talent. Well well well. A musician man would love a girl like this. Someone who can play an instrument with him or help compose songs or bounce music theory off of. Someone who can paint a picture of him or make a cool drawing. Something that makes a person unique and special. I don't see what's wrong with that.
*Honest.* SURELY not enough of that going around right now. So many damn liars out here nowadays and users. People almost don't expect honest people to exist anymore. So once they know this, you're in there.
*Generous.* Someone who ain't selfish. Good God! Men kill for that! So many users and leeches and Peg Bundys in the world with their hand out but never giving anything in return.

I don't see what the problem is here. If these qualities are true, you will make an excellent mate. Let's see what else you wrote.



> So I've just tried to be phlegmatic about it and stay optimistic. But as I get older and everyone around me has paired off while I remain eternally single, I have to say that I have lost some of my optimism. In the end, I find that, in my world, FAs are almost nonexistent. Years sometimes go by without a man expressing any interest in me--and I am active in the community, outgoing and friendly--not someone who's at home all the time hiding from life.



Eh, bull. You have an online world FULL of 'em. I can give you the address to Chubby Parade Forum if you want for more contacts. Are they not coming forward or are you pre-rejecting the ones who do? Let's continue.



> Seriously. Men just aren't coming forward, JL.
> 
> Yet online it appears to be a different situation. Men who say they like their women fat are everywhere online.
> 
> So I have to wonder why it is that though there are plenty of fat admirers online, few materialize in the real world, at least in my experience.



OK, if they're online go where the water is. Your parcel of the globe may have an FA shortage. I think they're trying to setup an office there soon and they'll fly some in. Check out the online folks. There are COUNTLESS sites and meeting grounds where men go abso-friggin-LUTE-ly GA-GA over well-rounded women. I mean they LOVE the cellulite and rolls. They love how the upper arm looks. They love the round faces with full cheeks. They love the shape. They love the walk. They love the attitude and presence. So many sex sites alone for the BBW. And other sites not focused on the sex.

You wanna know a group who REALLY have a problem meeting people? Short heighted men. And more importantly small-genitaled men. They BARELY see *ANY* positive reaction to their forms and a HELL of a lot of scorn, neglect, derision, degrading, devaluing. Suffocating disenfranchisement.

Here's a site for the small-sized man where these guys have WAY less resources than fat people do for acceptance. http://www.measurection.com/fusionbb/index.php?

Read this one too.
http://shortsupport.org/

Now THESE guys have problems. Unlike you BBWs they have little to stand on to see themselves as admired and desired. They hardly have any enthusiastically positive feedback about their forms. ESPECIALLY the small-genitaled men. THOSE guys have it ROUGH. Short-heighted guys have a little leeway to stand on but it's almost ALL uphill for the other guys.

YOU on the other hand have growing mainstream acceptance. Mo'Nique and others are really breaking down the doors. You have online acceptance and WORSHIP even. A place called Dimensions and all kinds of meeting grounds for full-sized people where everybody can meet and greet like there's no tomorrow.

So if they're not in real world, go to cyber world. Go where the market is. Make a connection with someone online, see if he's not crazed or a stalker or whatever and then make arrangements to meet.
And another thing. Quit waiting for them to come forward! Take the initiative and meet THEM. I don't buy this so-called rule that only men have to hunt women and women only have stand by for men to meet them. If you want sum'n GET it. When I wanted a Nintendo Wii last year and I had the opportunity to get one, I snapped that bad boy up! I didn't wait for someone to come by and let me know it's there so I could ask them to get it for me. I went and GOT it and now I'm enjoying this cool gamesystem. Anything I want, I go for it. Damn the culture. Damn the society. Damn the rules. Quit letting others dictate how you should operate. Those fools don't know GOOSH. They know nothing. They don't understand your life so why follow their mandates on how to operate. "It's not ladylike to approach men." Whatever. If you want men in this lifetime, go for 'em. Quit waiting for approaches and get after 'em.



> And when someone comes online with his wellmeaning but simplistic advice of "stop being mental," I have to scratch my head as to where your version of reality is coming from.
> 
> Evidently all of the fat admirers are busy hanging with "mental" women (you're not the first JL, in this thread, to bring up the issue of all these insane, self-hating women who just can't stand to be told they're pretty--for the record, in real life I don't know any of these women, either), who want to lose weight or can't stand to look in a mirror. Maybe that's why there aren't enough admirers coming my way.



When I said mental I'm not just talking about women who self-hate, I'm also talking about women who think this out too much. Overthinking stuff. Making things WAAAAY more complicated than they need to be. Creating all this artifice to get something so simple. Rube Goldberg devices in metaphor. Waiting on a fairy tale of a tall dark handsome Prince Charming to sweep Cinderella of their feet in the pumpkin turned horse-drawn coach on their way to the Queen's ball. Keep it real, baby! They have screwed women's heads up forever with this mess. Little girls buying into this nonsense and trying to make this come true in real life when they grow up. You know how OTHER animals get together? Dogs sniff butts and it's on. Chimps check puffy rear ends and BAM actiontime. Bonobos don't even hardly do that and just go every five minutes just for the heck of it. Cats play this wary game and then they fight in sexual union but they're together. Human beings are the only ones making this mess complicated. Tying in all this fallderall about what a relationship should be. And some human beings make sure not to caught up in all this doing what's natural.

I'm gonna ask you something and I want your honest answer.
If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities and shared many of those qualities himself with other qualities that you liked in him but he was 5' 3" and 115 pounds, would you give him a chance?
If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities sharing many of those himself with other bonus qualities but he was 55 years old, would you give him a chance?
If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities sharing the same having great others himself but he worked as a cook in a truck stop diner, would you give him a chance?
If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities sharing them himself with great other ones but he was a 19 year old college student, would you give him a chance?
If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities but he was nerdy with cokebottle glasses, would you give him a chance?
If an Asian man showed interest in you would you give him a chance?
If a Black man from the ghetto who was an upstanding citizen showed interest in you would you give him a chance?
If a hillbilly who liked bluegrass with acne scars but a heart of gold showed interest in you, would you give him a chance?
If a quadriplegic showed interest in you, would you give him a chance?
If a Mexican day-laborer showed interest in you, would you give him a chance?
If a janitor showed interest in you, would you give him a chance?
If a bald-headed man showed interest in you, would you give him a chance?
If an iconoclastic, march-to-the-beat-of-his-own-drummer, fish-out-of-water type of person who wore loud bright colors and mismatched socks showed interest in you, would you give him a chance?

What I've found over the years studying self-image is that the ones who complain about not being able to find anybody because of being discriminated against OFTEN discriminate against others on the same or similar themes.

Here's a few Yahoo Answers results that I study to learn about people.
A tall woman complaining about tall men only seeming to go for short women never realizing the irony of her next statements. Oh and the other answers will enlighten on the subject as well.
Why is that really tall guys,,,only are attracted to short women?

Another tall girl whining about being seen as undateable because of the "short girl" menace stealing all the tall men away.
Are any you tall chicks SICK of seeing short women with tall men? Why do these damn midgets?

Another ironic whiner.
Why do men just not like tall women?

Listen to the casual prejudice against short guys in this conversation.
Why are short men attracted to tall women?

See the devaluation of the short-heighted here.
Why do short women take all the tall men?

For the record, I'm 6 feet tall. I showed you a different prejudice, heightism, to shed light on the prejudice YOU suffer from, weightism. And many people who feel prejudged against will defend their RIGHT to be just as prejudicial to another regardless of what they went through.

I'm a Black man and I find it disheartening how other black folks want to ostracize gay people. It makes no sense after all that 'sheet' WE went through (and are still GOING through) to want to put obstacles up for THESE peoples' acceptance into society. Homosexuality is genetic just like us African-based folks' genetics made us. Is melanin abundance a defect? Is it a flaw that needs to cured? Is nappy hair a defect when many other peoples' hair are straight? Is RuPaul a defect? Is Ellen DeGeneres a defect? If so, then what about nearsighted people and farsighted people who carry those deficient rogue eye genes that force them to wear glasses? If so, what about short people whose deficient trash genetics didn't allow them to produce enough HGH to grow to a "REAL human being's" height? If so, then what about those fat people who deficient trash genetics didn't allow them to have a "proper metabolism" as they gain all that "disgusting weight".

You see how hurtful that sounds? Of course all that is bull. If anything's a defect then we're ALL a defect because none of us come out the same and none of us represent the perfect form because there IS no perfect form. But some prejudices are more accepted than others are in this world. And some groups prejudiced against only care about THEIR liberation to hell with the others oppressed.

Puritans escaped over here to America to get away from religious persecution. But what did they do not too long later? They persecuted the Quakers over THEIR religion! Hahahahahahaha! That's how Rhode Island got started. Hahahahaha!

The USA was started to escape injustice of the English king and to fight for Liberty and Freedom. Hahahaha. But what happened right after? 'Freedom' & 'Liberty' only pertained to rich white guys with land. Hahahahahahaha! To hell with the non-land owning men, all the women, and especially those Black folks who weren't even considered to be a full human being just 3/5 of one. Hahahahahaha! Andrew Jackson then opened the floor to all white men. Wasn't that nice? Later women got a taste and then blacks got a taste. Much later though.
This country was started to ward off against an empire. But what did USA become? An imperial nation itself oppressing others around the globe.

A bullied picked-on kid will often bully a new kid on the scene joining the bully ranks he was once a victim of. Ironic how that works isn't it?

So I don't hold full sympathy anymore to any group complaining about not being able to find a mate. I know there ARE difficulties but sometimes I have to wonder if they're not self-made. Lots of people out here are quality but no one gives them the time of day because "we're just too good for them". So be it. People have a right to that attitude. But don't complain when someone says they're too good for YOU if you play that game.

The only legitimate discrimination is character and hygiene. The rest of it is just artificial and kept up by people themselves out of their own delusions who is "good enough".

John Lucas


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 27, 2007)

Relationships are not as simple to aquire. It's not a matter of, "You fat, me fa. Let us run away together, mate and be happy." I agree with you in some respects. I meet plenty of FA's online, the vast majority of them are great guys but most of them are way younger than I. I have no issues with young guys, I like young guys. My issue is I'm 41 and I'm looking for a commited relationship, settling down, bla bla bla. Most young guys just aren't at that place. The older guys are usually already partnered or they don't want to be partnered which is why they are still single in the first place. For me that's a conflict of interest. There are personality issues, belief systems, personal habits that come in to play just as they do for anybody else who is looking to meet someone. Like I said, I agree with you on many fronts but I'm a little uncomfortable with the implication that fault lies with the individual if they can't find a partner in this infinite sea of FA's who are just lying around on the internet waiting to be found.


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## Rowan (Oct 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> show boat hoot nanny



its sayings like that why i loves ya *hugs*


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## johnlucas (Oct 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Relationships are not as simple to aquire. It's not a matter of, "You fat, me fa. Let us run away together, mate and be happy." I agree with you in some respects. I meet plenty of FA's online, the vast majority of them are great guys but most of them are way younger than I. I have no issues with young guys, I like young guys. My issue is I'm 41 and I'm looking for a commited relationship, settling down, bla bla bla. Most young guys just aren't at that place. The older guys are usually already partnered or they don't want to be partnered which is why they are still single in the first place. For me that's a conflict of interest. There are personality issues, belief systems, personal habits that come in to play just as they do for anybody else who is looking to meet someone. Like I said, I agree with you on many fronts but I'm a little uncomfortable with the implication that fault lies with the individual if they can't find a partner in this infinite sea of FA's who are just lying around on the internet waiting to be found.



Ho ho. I gotta jump on this one. 
Me Tarzan, You Jane, Let's swing? It SHOULD be that easy actually.

Maybe that's the point. Maybe people need to quit looking for these lockdown relationships where people stay together forever and ever. A lot of young guys AND old guys ain't about that no more. I don't know if you've heard of www.nomarriage.com or this site Men Going Their Own Way. For different and sometimes same reasons between the generations.

Many of the older guys have been burnt in LTRs and now don't feel like tying down anymore because of the high costs in doing so. Many of the young guys are just naturally in the test-out phase so they don't worry about it. And vice versa.

An average guy at 45 probably has alimony and child support payments from a union the ex-wife broke up for whatever personal reason she declared. He might not have been perfect but he wasn't a cad. And yet he's now paying for a decision made when he was young dumb and full of...well you know. So now he says *F* it and either becomes a hermit, looks for one-two-three night stands or relationships in the short term because he now does not expect them to last.
So looking for older guys to settle down (I hate that phrase settling down, that's for cereal boxes not people) might be an unrealistic goal nowadays. Some guys still wanna settle down but then they might have kids they're taking care of. So now you have step-children in the mix which always complicates things.

MAYBE, JUST MAAAYBE people just need to take a relationship as it comes and if turns out to be long-term then cool. But just enjoy the ride while it lasts and have fun. Maybe people should just mate and date. Not construct this whole framework of timeline progression for a relationship. Usually if you hit it off really good, things will naturally take their course. MAYBE people need to start seeing mating as an adventure rather than a foundation.

Belief systems. Everybody with their hare-brained beliefs. Many of them don't even explore and question them. And that's why people stay apart. Too rigid in their beliefs. Catholics and Jews mate and both sort of diminish the importance of their religion in their lives as it pertains to getting together. Catholic: "Jesus is Son of GOD! Christ in FLESH! The Holy Trinity! Birthed from the Virgin Mary herself!" Jew: "Eh, he was a good prophet."
TOTALLY opposing viewpoints with no middle ground. Jesus to one is the entire foundation of their belief system made divine and lionized to legendary status. Jesus to the other is just a nice guy who said some good words but cool it with the Son of God business. So how can these two co-exist? By saying damn the beliefs, peoples is peoples!
Atheists and religious people can get together. Democrats and Republicans can get together. Rednecks and soul sistahs can get together. Peasants and Princes can get together. All if they're not so ruled by their belief systems as to miss out on good mates.

I have to say it. I question people who complain about not finding anybody. I don't diminish their difficulties in discrimination that make it harder to find people. That IS real. But sometimes I have to wonder if they aren't making it EXTRA difficult with all of their arbitrary reasonings on what should be and what should not be.

I exampled those tall women for a reason. They were the epitome of hypocrites and actually deserve to be neglected in the mating game with attitudes like that. It's not that they can't find anybody decent. It's that they want THIS kind of person to be CONSIDERED decent. They're snobs and overly judgmental. And that's fine but don't whine if you hold your standards so high when someone judges against you with their high standards.

I post in all of these self-image body image groups. And here's one from a group dealing with the life experience of the large-penised man.

http://www.lpsg.org/62546-hardcore-size-queen-natural-instinct.html

This woman in this thread expressed a definitive cutoff mark for men she would bother dating. She wanted men at the VERY minimum 9 X 6 inches in size and will absolutely REFUSE to date anyone under that standard. Not to mention other personality traits where she draws the line. Not just that but looking at 10 X 7 and above as the preferred watermark with 9 X 6 being her absolute settling-for. The board was incredulous even for a site populated by large guys and size queens. They began questioning her standards as if she was being too unrealistic.
I stepped in and defended her saying it is her right to be as picky or as non-picky as she wants to be. Just as long as she isn't complaining about someone being picky to her. She related that it was a lonely existence at least sexually but she will stick by her standards. That's very commendable. She's not being a hypocrite and is honest about who she is and what she wants. There's something to be said about questing for the Holy Grail when a person fits all of your qualifications and you finally win the prize. It's like winning lotto. You set a high mark and got your prize. Euphoria from the results. But the narrower you make your search, the harder it will be to find what you're looking for and you MAY not find anything at all.

I mean you can really get extra picky down to a single pound of weight or a single inch of height or a certain job under a certain pay down to the cent mark. The just-right color skin tone not too beige not too peach but two parts peach one part beige. The hair in the proper part formation, an exact 65 degree angle on the right...not the left, the right. Clothes ONLY from Gucci and ONLY with the right cologne. With a voice ONLY in the baritone range NOT the bass range NOT the tenor range but a C# baritone....with a posh English accent. Who must know Richard Branson and has hobnobbed with Rupert Murdoch. Who has connections with the CIA and likes THESE off-Broadway plays but not those. And who makes it a point to take off his Gucci jacket and put it over every puddle so that I may walk on it and put rose petals imported from Italy in my bathwater EVERYtime I take a bath as he waits for me to disrobe and enter the tub. Who will only use bath oils made in Uruguay in my bathwater and shall take a sip of my bathwater after I finish bathing. Oh and he must like moonlit strolls every Saturday at 9PM with parkside kisses every Sunday morning at 8AM. And he must say I love you three times a day at least once every 8 hours.

I mean you can go on and on. And you have THE RIGHT to make as many stipulations as you want to about who you want to date and no one should give you grief about it. But as SOON as you start complaining that no one is giving YOU a chance reexamine the chances you give others.

Most likely people who say they can't find anybody are being snobbish. They select against certain types not on the basis of character or hygiene. Not safety or proximity. But a host of when you get down to it, flaky reasons not to connect with somebody. Yet they wanna complain. This goes for men AND women.

I want you to look at my answer to a guy who called himself ugly on Yahoo Answers. Scroll down a bit. I'm johnlucas31320 on there.
Do you really think there's someone for everyone?

I kept it real with him. Even HE can get somebody even though there IS true difficulty but will he get past his OWN prejudices to connect with someone else? Or will he continue playing the Holy Grail game and whine when he lost? Holy Grail is one strategy and Love is another. Both have their great rewards.

I don't believe anymore that it's SO hard to find anybody. I think what people are really saying is there's nobody I *like* who would like me. The silly tall women whining about being discriminated against because of their height, worrying that they are not seen as feminine enough and passed over time and time again by tall men who go most often for short women. But then it never clicks that these same women discriminated against short men because of their height, saying that they were not masculine enough passing them over time and time again as they go for the tall men. The same damn thing. But they whine. Hahahahahahahaha! Well, let 'em whine. And let 'em be lonely until they get their attitudes in order. Or get lucky and find that rare tall guy who wants a tall girl whichever come first.

I don't buy it anymore. It's very easy. We just make it complicated. We're too rigid and not flexible. It's simple physics. Shouldn't really be a surprise.

John Lucas


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 27, 2007)

That makes perfect sense on paper. I'm a logical person and thought of this long ago, even tried to adopt this kind of mentality but I found that it just doesn't work that way for me. The results for me did more harm than good so believe me, I personally am not complaining about being alone. I'm much better off. Some folks just aren't cut out for that kind of thing and there's not much we can do about it. I wouldn't go so far as to say I wear my heart on my sleeve but unfortunatley my heart has a mind of its own and can't be controlled or reasoned with, only protected.




johnlucas said:


> Ho ho. I gotta jump on this one.
> Me Tarzan, You Jane, Let's swing? It SHOULD be that easy actually.
> 
> Maybe that's the point. Maybe people need to quit looking for these lockdown relationships where people stay together forever and ever. A lot of young guys AND old guys ain't about that no more. I don't know if you've heard of www.nomarriage.com or this site Men Going Their Own Way. For different and sometimes same reasons between the generations.
> ...


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 27, 2007)

> What I've found over the years studying self-image is that the ones who complain about not being able to find anybody because of being discriminated against OFTEN discriminate against others on the same or similar themes.



It isn't discrimination if you just are not interested in or attracted to somebody. Whether this was your intention or not, your novel...I mean, post...sounds an awful like you're just chastising single women for being too picky. Some people are too picky. Others however are not just going to partner up with whomever asks. I'm currently seeing a guy who is younger and skinnier and less educated. The last guy I dated was my age, an attorney and fairly heavyset. What these guys had in common was I was very attracted to them and wanted to spend time with them.



> Maybe that's the point. Maybe people need to quit looking for these lockdown relationships where people stay together forever and ever. A lot of young guys AND old guys ain't about that no more. I don't know if you've heard of www.nomarriage.com or this site Men Going Their Own Way. For different and sometimes same reasons between the generations.



This one is mindboggling. Are you actually suggesting that women are overeaching if they want a marriage or committed long term partnership? I mean, compromising on height or income is one thing, but I find it horribley insulting for you tell women who are looking for a committment that guys just aint about that. If you want to write off marriage as a 'lockdown' relationship that's fine, but don't tell women who want it that they need to realize men 'just aint about that.'

Furthermore, this:



> An average guy at 45 probably has alimony and child support payments from a union the ex-wife broke up for whatever personal reason she declared.



I sort of suspected you were anti-woman from the rest of your posts, but this seals it. Marriages break up for any number of reasons, but you seem to believe that they break up because the ex-wife broke it up. Are you saying it's a done deal that if a man is divorced, it's because his wife left him for some 'personal reason', read: selfish woman just left some wonderful man and sicced him with alimony.

You then go on to say that his choice to marry the selfish woman who left him was 'dumb' and made when he was young and now he's just screwed having to provide for his children and having ONE woman leave him has soured him on marriage, and dammit, the rest of us just have to understand that.

So, no. Lilly and everyone else don't have to lower their standards and not expect men to commit to them. If a man doesn't want to, then fine. He can and should stay single. But don't tell us to lower our standards just because you don't want to meet them.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 27, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> Evidently all of the fat admirers are busy hanging with "mental" women (you're not the first JL, in this thread, to bring up the issue of all these insane, self-hating women who just can't stand to be told they're pretty--for the record, in real life I don't know any of these women, either), who want to lose weight or can't stand to look in a mirror. Maybe that's why there aren't enough admirers coming my way.



I gotta give you a big +1 on this.....I have never mind being called pretty or complimented in some way......and I have never met any other women that dislike it either. Hell, I dare even to say that some of the women wanting to lose weight might be doing it so they will be called "pretty" or complimented more often.


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

This guy is like going to church to hear a preacher preach..but knowing you are not going to get that sweet slug of wine during the mid-preach break.


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## johnlucas (Oct 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> It isn't discrimination if you just are not interested in or attracted to somebody. Whether this was your intention or not, your novel...I mean, post...sounds an awful like you're just chastising single women for being too picky. Some people are too picky. Others however are not just going to partner up with whomever asks. I'm currently seeing a guy who is younger and skinnier and less educated. The last guy I dated was my age, an attorney and fairly heavyset. What these guys had in common was I was very attracted to them and wanted to spend time with them.



Now see, this is what happened last time I was here. People taking what I said all wrong and missing the point I was making.

Definition of Discrimination: Discrimination is to recognize qualities and differences of certain things or persons and making choices based on those qualities.

That's all. You ASSUME that discrimination is an evil thing. I said it quite right in those posts that some discrimination is valid. You don't want to be with a liar or someone who has poor hygiene. We discriminate everyday. When we go to McDonald's and pick and select through the menu based on the choices available. We discriminate AGAINST the selection we don't favor and discriminate FOR the selection we DO favor.
Discrimination is a function derived out of survival.

No, MY point was that when people complain or lament about not ever being able to find someone that MAYBE it's the type of barriers THEY put up against others who MAY be suitable. In other words, the one who feels discriminated against and is disappointed by it maybe doing the exact same thing to another. Selected against DESPITE their good qualities.

The qualities she listed were excellent and really I can't see why she can't find anybody. The weight issue is moot being that she knows about places like these. There is a network and a support group. There's infrastructure. It doesn't make sense. And I SHOWED examples of people of a different light to add perspective on the issue. The tall women who lamented being rejected then rejecting another on the same exact theme and never realizing the irony. Nobody SAID they couldn't be choosy. The issue is don't complain if you do the same thing someone else does to you.

Good for you that you were attracted to who you liked. Who says I'm up here trying to tell you who you should and should not like? I mentioned the post from LPSG.com where I DEFENDED the woman's right to set her standards when most everybody else was getting on her about it. Have you read this post in entirety or did you just skim? Can't get the full picture if you skim.

I said then and there you can be as picky or as non-picky as you want to be. BUT do not whine and complain if someone is the same against you when you were that way to another.



> This one is mindboggling. Are you actually suggesting that women are overeaching if they want a marriage or committed long term partnership? I mean, compromising on height or income is one thing, but I find it horribley insulting for you tell women who are looking for a committment that guys just aint about that. If you want to write off marriage as a 'lockdown' relationship that's fine, but don't tell women who want it that they need to realize men 'just aint about that.'


Ha. I'm gonna show you this post I just made very recently in Measurection.com to a guy who lost his girlfriend.

www dot measurection.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/278877/ (cut and paste it)

I told him the EXACT same thing I said here. He's coming unglued because the girl broke up with him and he has a a history of feeling selected against because of his size in genital department. I told the EXACT same thing I said here. I'm gonna quote what I said there as a matter of fact.

_"One thing though. I want to tell ya. The pickier you are when looking for mates, the longer it will take for you to find one. And the pickier you are, the pickier they can be about you. Goose and gander, kid. There are plenty of women out there but you might not be giving them the time of day because of YOUR prejudices. I've found that those who complain about being rejected often reject others on similar themes. Everybody needs love and affection yet everybody thinks they are above another person playing a snob routine. "Don't settle," they say. Your choice. I wouldn't call it settling. I'd call it Love. REAL Love. People who don't have anybody and are not the pick of the litter, the abandoned and neglected. The outcasts. Could be your "perfect" mate, kid, and can bolster your life in ways you may not have thought imaginable."_

I told of reality here in my Dimensions post. I also put in that some men still look for committed relationships but there might be some obstacles that still make it hard to connect. I put step-children as an example.
You can find it insulting all you want but this is reality. It's like a man wanting a virgin who's 40 years old. They do exist but how many of those are you gonna find today? You can still chase what you're looking for but don't be surprised that when you play the Holy Grail game that you come up empty handed. That is a possibility. Not telling you to stop chasing but to inform of all the possibilities. I showed you the links that tell how some men, many men are thinking today. And as a result why women lament about men not being interested in marriages and long term relationships nowadays.

I even told that guy from Measurection not to put too much faith in Long Term Relationships. So don't try this with me, please. I'm very fair when I say stuff and it applies to men AND women.



> Furthermore, this:
> 
> I sort of suspected you were anti-woman from the rest of your posts, but this seals it. Marriages break up for any number of reasons, but you seem to believe that they break up because the ex-wife broke it up. Are you saying it's a done deal that if a man is divorced, it's because his wife left him for some 'personal reason', read: selfish woman just left some wonderful man and sicced him with alimony.


Oh please. Stop it. Anti-woman? You haven't read my posts at all in any detail to come up with a conclusion like that. That was an example detailing a possible scenario. Men break up relationships too, of course. But this is a WOMAN seeking relationships with a man and she mentioned her age so I put that in there to give a picture of a man at a certain age and why some may not be oriented to commit. You may not LIKE the scenario but it is real, trust me.

You have to stop reading into what I say and READ what I say. I don't talk in code. It's plain English here. You're taking this to a whole 'nother level assuming that I say all relationships break up because of a woman. I mean where are you getting this from? C'mon now.



> You then go on to say that his choice to marry the selfish woman who left him was 'dumb' and made when he was young and now he's just screwed having to provide for his children and having ONE woman leave him has soured him on marriage, and dammit, the rest of us just have to understand that.


Boy, I tell ya. This is exactly the kind of stuff I dealt with when I first came here. Some of you here are too ready to attack someone over what they say. Defensive and for what? Yeah, that's how the saying goes 'young, dumb, and full of...you know the rest'. That means young, inexperienced, and hormone-led. This applies to men AND women. Lots of people marry young and when they age they find that it wasn't what it was cracked up to be. Age taught them and calmed them down from hormone-mania. Now they're older, wiser, and can make more solid decisions without the cloud of lust overpowering their rationality. Men AND women can attest to that. Ask any divorcees. They always look back on the initial union with less rosy-colored glasses and look at the person they were then with less value. They see a naïve person who didn't know any better.

The reality is there, OK? You may not like it but ask around sometimes and see what people say on the subject. I'm 31. Still young but I can see this because I read other people's accounts and experiences. I learned from them. Men and women. So stop this "evil man slamming all the women" nonsense because it doesn't fly with me.



> So, no. Lilly and everyone else don't have to lower their standards and not expect men to commit to them. If a man doesn't want to, then fine. He can and should stay single. But don't tell us to lower our standards just because you don't want to meet them.


Who said you did? You didn't read a word I said. Maybe I write too long. Lots of stuff to get out on paper, can't help it. If you read what I said, you'd know that I said you can be as selective, picky, choosy as you want to be. I said it was YOUR RIGHT. See that? YOUR RIGHT. BUT don't complain and lament if you say you can't find somebody when most likely you are doing the same to others as others did to you.

A fat woman with great qualities who somehow can't find a fat admirer in a fat admirers' community. Now that doesn't make sense. I don't buy that. I KNOW she can find somebody and plenty somebody. Oh I'm anti-woman though. I'm not supposed to think a woman is worthy of finding somebody, right? No, the qualities she listed are excellent and should make her able to find somebody.

I suggested she stop waiting for them to come to her and maybe go to them since she wasn't getting anybody. Because if she is what she says she is, then she would make a GREAT woman and a man would appreciate very much. The way she's going she may not EVER find somebody who will appreciate her qualities and that would be a waste wouldn't it?

I put up a hypothesis about mate selection to give her perspective just in case it applied to her. Maybe it doesn't. But I put it in there anyway because I think most people who say they can't ever find anybody may not be using full vision to see them. Because this world has 6.5 billion and counting in it and it really doesn't make sense from purely a numerological point of view how in an overpopulated world people remain lonely.

I really hope the rest of the members don't overreact and misread what I've been saying here. No more of that please. Had a bad experience my first time writing here.

John Lucas


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 27, 2007)

johnlucas said:


> *Warm.* Men love warm women. So many cold ones out there right now.



Would you mind to define "cold" for me - with maybe an example?




johnlucas said:


> *Hard-working.* Excellent quality. You will never be seen as a golddigger. Men don't marry mostly anymore because they feel they will be taken by some opportunist trying to ride him to the good life. A hard-working woman is a woman many men want at their side. They know they will do their share of the load.
> 
> 
> *Generous.* Someone who ain't selfish. Good God! Men kill for that! So many users and leeches and Peg Bundys in the world with their hand out but never giving anything in return.



In today's world...are there still actually women like this? And why is it that I have only seen men with nothing aka they live off their mothers and don't work, that call women this? It's not a term I have ever seen men with real means say or use to describe women. 

How many of these women have you dated, JL, for you to say that there are "so many" out there? Did you get your impressions of women from the TV or did you actually date a string of them yourself? Just have to wonder when I see such harsh generalizations about half the human race....



johnlucas said:


> *Honest.* SURELY not enough of that going around right now. So many damn liars out here nowadays and users. People almost don't expect honest people to exist anymore. So once they know this, you're in there.



I think that's a lot of the complaints from the women around here...that online 
FAs really aren't being honest themselves......



johnlucas said:


> Eh, bull. You have an online world FULL of 'em. I can give you the address to Chubby Parade Forum if you want for more contacts. Are they not coming forward or are you pre-rejecting the ones who do? Let's continue.



Your response to her seems pretty harsh to me- especially when she seemed to be speaking with such candor about her own personal experiences. She lives her life as a fat woman- I would guess she knows what it is to be a fat woman better than any male........

And isn't that the point of this thread? That the women get tired of hearing about all the FAs online yet they never materialize in reality? Personally, I wouldn't want yet another web address to a place that has the potential to have whole group of FAs that are married to thin women and get their rocks off on the net or will never admit their real preferences.

Hell, I come here and see it posted that "women my size" aren't "big enough" or my shape isn't the "right kind" of fat oftentimes.

and if a woman wants a guy to lie to her, use her and leaving her feeling like absolute shit in the morning, she can get that in reality easy enough without web addresses. 



johnlucas said:


> You wanna know a group who REALLY have a problem meeting people? Short heighted men. And more importantly small-genitaled men. They BARELY see *ANY* positive reaction to their forms and a HELL of a lot of scorn, neglect, derision, degrading, devaluing. Suffocating disenfranchisement.




Small penis? Who knows they have one until the woman has already pretty much committed to have sex with him? When a woman goes that far, she probably had a lot of other factors involved in the decision making that had NOTHING to do with his penis......

I can agree that the short guys probably do get a lot of shit---- it's sizeism at work again. 




johnlucas said:


> Now THESE guys have problems. Unlike you BBWs they have little to stand on to see themselves as admired and desired. They hardly have any enthusiastically positive feedback about their forms. ESPECIALLY the small-genitaled men. THOSE guys have it ROUGH. Short-heighted guys have a little leeway to stand on but it's almost ALL uphill for the other guys.



I'm not sure if this is supposed to make a fat women feel better for being a fat woman because there are scores of men online willing to treat them like meat. When a man doesn't care to really "know you better" or thinks that you deserve honesty and respect, that is how he is treating you- like a slab of meat with no feelings or value. 



johnlucas said:


> YOU on the other hand have growing mainstream acceptance. Mo'Nique and others are really breaking down the doors. You have online acceptance and WORSHIP even. A place called Dimensions and all kinds of meeting grounds for full-sized people where everybody can meet and greet like there's no tomorrow.



I can agree that Dims is a nice place for size acceptance and support from others. However, it's not really a dating service and when I approach it for what it is, I enjoy my time here. I come here for the friendship and warmth I find- not to make love connections. (Though I am quite happy for those that have found love here  )




johnlucas said:


> When I said mental I'm not just talking about women who self-hate, *I'm also talking about women who think this out too much. Overthinking stuff. Making things WAAAAY more complicated than they need to be. Creating all this artifice to get something so simple. *



Ermmmm...didn't you just say that men want intelligence in a women yet you say that some women "think too much"?:doh: Not a damn thing wrong with analyzing a situation...and seeing it for what it really is. 




johnlucas said:


> Waiting on a fairy tale of a tall dark handsome Prince Charming to sweep Cinderella of their feet in the pumpkin turned horse-drawn coach on their way to the Queen's ball. Keep it real, baby! They have screwed women's heads up forever with this mess. Little girls buying into this nonsense and trying to make this come true in real life when they grow up.



I agree with this part.....we are spoon fed a lot of bullshit. That if we just look pretty, lie there and be sweet, some man will "rescue us" and make it all better. What a load of shit......




johnlucas said:


> You know how OTHER animals get together? Dogs sniff butts and it's on. Chimps check puffy rear ends and BAM actiontime. Bonobos don't even hardly do that and just go every five minutes just for the heck of it. Cats play this wary game and then they fight in sexual union but they're together. Human beings are the only ones making this mess complicated. Tying in all this fallderall about what a relationship should be. And some human beings make sure not to caught up in all this doing what's natural.



Not sure what you're trying to say in this part.....us BBW's should "lighten up" and just let guys sniff our butts because that's "natural"? Men humping us and dumping us is "natural" too- so we should just let it happen? Wow.....




johnlucas said:


> *If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities and shared many of those qualities himself with other qualities that you liked in him but he was 5' 3" and 115 pounds, would you give him a chance?
> *If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities sharing many of those himself with other bonus qualities but he was 55 years old, would you give him a chance?
> *If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities sharing the same having great others himself but he worked as a cook in a truck stop diner, would you give him a chance?
> *If a man showed interest in you and all your qualities sharing them himself with great other ones but he was a 19 year old college student, would you give him a chance?
> ...



I can't speak for the other lady, JL, but *I* have given men similar to what is on your list here "chances". I was married to two of them. 



johnlucas said:


> What I've found over the years studying self-image is that the ones who complain about not being able to find anybody because of being discriminated against OFTEN discriminate against others on the same or similar themes.



I have often seen it asked about "what preferences people have for the perfect mate". The overwhelming majority of men usually start off with the physical.....


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 27, 2007)

Ok, Mr. Lucas.

I'll admit to 'skimming' your posts, but that is mostly because they are in excess of about 4 zillion words long and I have to get to the gym in 26 minutes.

I may be one of those broads that think too much, but I don't think the following facts are coincidence:

1. EVERY woman misunderstands you. EVERYONE doesn't see things your way. You think any woman who does not approch dating like an ass sniffing baboon or dog is somehow too picky.

2. You post on a message board called *meaurerection.com* and think the people in this world who really get a raw deal are not minorities or gays, but men with small penises.

No woman above the age of 16 can't see through the whole "All women only want a perfect guy with a perfect body who drinks her bathwater and tosses his coat over puddles and makes fifty billion dollars a year." This is nearly _always_ code for "The last bitch I dated thought Denny's wasn't good enough for her. Materialistic wench."


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## elle camino (Oct 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> Ok, Mr. Lucas.
> 
> I'll admit to 'skimming' your posts, but that is mostly because they are in excess of about 4 zillion words long and I have to get to the gym in 26 minutes.
> 
> ...



i am currently humping this post so hard.
see you in 26, grrl.


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> "The last bitch I dated thought Denny's wasn't good enough for her. Materialistic wench."





Now THAT was a Grand Slam.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> No woman above the age of 16 can't see through the whole "All women only want a perfect guy with a perfect body who drinks her bathwater and tosses his coat over puddles and makes fifty billion dollars a year." This is nearly _always_ code for "The last bitch I dated thought Denny's wasn't good enough for her. Materialistic wench."




My last date took me to Denny's....it was good and I thanked him :bow:



EXTREME Grand Slams Monique...... MAKE HIM PAY!!!!!!!


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> My last date took me to Denny's....it was good and I thanked him :bow:
> 
> 
> 
> EXTREME Grand Slams Monique...... MAKE HIM PAY!!!!!!!



Pumpkin..you done good all on your own. Although, get ready to do it again. Remember in The Silence Of The Lambs, when Multiple Miggs let fly at Clarice?..well, I think JL is gearing up and has another load coming ( or..cumming..that's for RV, as I know how she likes that ' word ' ).


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## johnlucas (Oct 27, 2007)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Would you mind to define "cold" for me - with maybe an example?



OK. *Warm* as in kind, compassionate, understanding, affectionate.
*Cold* as in mean, heartless, denigrating, hands-offish.

That good? 



> In today's world...are there still actually women like this? And why is it that I have only seen men with nothing aka they live off their mothers and don't work, that call women this? It's not a term I have ever seen men with real means say or use to describe women.


We are socialized poorly. Everything has to be a Battle of the Sexes routine. *sigh* There are cruel people on both genders, Green Eyed Fairy. You know this. You haven't heard a man refer to a woman as warm or cold? Ask a married man or long-term boyfriend about his woman. He'll tell you. Warm. Cold.

I mean she was listing HER qualities first of all. And I was analyzing those qualities as to how many men would take them. I don't know what this "live off the mothers" thing came from. I don't know WHERE you're getting this economic class thing from. You lost me there.



> How many of these women have you dated, JL, for you to say that there are "so many" out there? Did you get your impressions of women from the TV or did you actually date a string of them yourself? Just have to wonder when I see such harsh generalizations about half the human race....


I'm gonna tell you a poorly kept secret about the human race. They are more bad than good. You don't believe it? Why is it hard for people to stay united then? And why do people begin assailing their fellow human being over any and all issues. Why is it easier to fight than make up?
The world is evil, Greed Eyed Fairy. Some people don't wanna believe that. People are shocked by human cruelty but human can be cruel quicker than they can be kind. This has nothing to do with who I've dated or not. This is a HUMAN thing.

We are born selfish. We are ALL selfish. We have to LEARN selflessness. LOVE has to be learned. A baby thinks it's all about him/her. And it is at that moment but then the baby grows with that same mindset to the point where now with his/her new mobility the baby can act on the impulses it only dreamed about before. This period is called the TERRIBLE TWOS for a reason. And it's in biology to snap the parents out of the purely protective phase where the baby always gets its way to teaching the baby to have regard for other besides themselves. If not taught properly the kid grows up with the same selfish impulses unchecked and gains more mobility and power to affect his environs. Evil comes from birth. We are ALL born evil. We just can't act on it yet. And we have to be taught to respect others and LEARN to be good. And some take more teaching than others. And some never really learn the lesson.

They say kids can be cruel. That's incomplete. *Humans* can be cruel no matter WHAT the age and it doesn't take many examples to show this. The fact that this group exists in the first place is an example of one human being's cruelty to another.

It ain't about HALF the human race, it's about ALL the human race. Some people have learned kindness and empathy for another being and will treat that other with the same regard they would enact for themselves. And others rejected those lessons and will do anything they want no matter who's toes they step on. This is not a gender thing. Quit making everything a gender thing. It is a human thing.




> I think that's a lot of the complaints from the women around here...that online
> FAs really aren't being honest themselves......


And that pisses me off as well, Green Eyed Fairy because that's another example of cruelty. Playing with people's emotions. Playing with members of an embattled group and their feelings. I see how many got defensive here and I said so in my first posts here earlier months ago. Lots of people toying with you all's emotions pretending to like you and then not being real.

That's bullsh*t and I don't like that either. The ones who say they are Fat Admirers quit the closet routine and let these ladies know you LOVE them AS they are. That's BS hiding behind cloak and dagger because you are afraid of what your boys will think. Damn your boys. Get with the damn girls.

Those are legitimate complaints, Greed Eyed Fairy, and I totally agree. She's honest but they are not. And that's not how a relationship can get started.



> Your response to her seems pretty harsh to me- especially when she seemed to be speaking with such candor about her own personal experiences. She lives her life as a fat woman- I would guess she knows what it is to be a fat woman better than any male........


Maybe I was a little abrasive but I was trying to be motivational because if she's got all this going on for herself why in the hell should she be lonely? That is not gonna fly. That dog will not hunt. Of course I can never fully understand the plight of a fat woman being a skinny male myself. I CAN have SOME insight though. I have read many stories and have done my best to put myself in another's shoes. I try my best to understand.
I sensed resign in her text and that disheartened me. So I went a little too Joe Clark I guess in the reply. But I don't want her to give up and expect the 'phlegmatism' as she said. And I don't want her to be passive. Sometimes you gotta go for it and damn the rules. Damn the order. Damn the society and its dictates. 'Cause I KNOW good and well there are plenty and pllllenty of FA's out there who can dig a woman like that. And she deserves a man like that.



> And isn't that the point of this thread? That the women get tired of hearing about all the FAs online yet they never materialize in reality? Personally, I wouldn't want yet another web address to a place that has the potential to have whole group of FAs that are married to thin women and get their rocks off on the net or will never admit their real preferences.


Cowards. Don't worry about the cowards. It actually does you a service. Those without the guts to walk side by side with you in the light of day do not deserve you. Most people just don't have the guts to stand alone against the tide. They're too caught up in being "normal". I hate that word. Be unique. Be extraordinary for God's sake. Too caught up with "what other people think". I'll paraphrase The Rock. 'I could wipe a cockatoo's aaaass with what people think.' That's me personally. I remember a woman going by the stagename ChickletsBBW, a 400 pound plus SuperSized BBW who found her guy. Big belly girl and who found a man who liked every freakin' BIT of that 400+ pound form.
Oh, I know there's difficulties but it really is getting better for women like you. Network it and shop around. Keep digging up the grounds until you find the gems.



> Hell, I come here and see it posted that "women my size" aren't "big enough" or my shape isn't the "right kind" of fat oftentimes.
> 
> and if a woman wants a guy to lie to her, use her and leaving her feeling like absolute shit in the morning, she can get that in reality easy enough without web addresses.


Hey, isn't it their right to choose? I just wrote a whole essay about it in response to a poster earlier. You can't be mad at men being selective. Everybody's selective. This is what I was getting at. Sour grapes when one is picked and chosen from but no connection with the pickiness and choosiness of the one discriminated against. Here's a thread for you from Chubby Parade Forum where guys detail the pickiness of fat women towards them, these loyal FA's. I posted on one of those pages in the thread.

chubbyparade.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7314

A 6'0" tall 157 pound man who is a loud and proud FA being selected against by the BBWs he covets. Some women there said those kind of things didn't matter and others detailed their choosiness and defended their right to BE choosy. And it IS their right. However, if HE chooses to be overly picky about the type of BBWs he would go out with then he can't complain, can he? Perhaps he is choosy, perhaps he is not.



> Small penis? Who knows they have one until the woman has already pretty much committed to have sex with him? When a woman goes that far, she probably had a lot of other factors involved in the decision making that had NOTHING to do with his penis......


Now you guys have NOTHING on this group of people. They REALLY catch hell in relationships. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna show you this MySpace blog I found from some site where small men are talked about like genetic trash unworthy of human contact.

blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=22012636&blogID=187971483 - The Itty Bitty Penis Committee Must Be Stopped!

Read the entire blog commentaries. You think YOU have problems with relationships? Try these guys. Most people do not understand the pain these guys go through. They do not understand the ramifications of this complex thinking of it as just a trivial matter. I submit that many of the world's misogynists come from this group after being jerked around for so much of their life in regards to their being. Many of them NEVER feel secure about having a mate. And women DO leave them for larger guys. Not all but it happens a lot. They don't even feel male anymore and are in constant battle with their masculine identity.

Go to this site and read their stories. www dot measurection.com
One of my plans to help people overcome self-image issues is to read the stories of other groups who face similar themes of being selected against. The details are different but the theme remains the same. I always reference the fat acceptance movement as a torch-bearer for these guys to learn from. They need to study your strategies.
While you have an extensive network that is building, these guys hardly have anything and as men socialized in this society usually have told no one of their plight so the community becomes that much more important. And when I say small I'm not talking about just 5 inches or 4 inches. Some of these guys are 2 inches erect. How are they going to have a relationship with a woman? How are they gonna start a family? You don't see *enough* regard attention towards YOUR being. They see hardly NONE.

That MySpace blog commentary board? Replace the references to penis size and input the disparagings of weight and body size in their place to understand the impact of those words.



> I can agree that the short guys probably do get a lot of shit---- it's sizeism at work again.


Oh they do. Most certainly they do. They get less flak than small-penised men—I don't think anyone gets it worse than those guys—but they catch a lot of hell too. And I'm not talking about just 5' 7" I'm talking about 5' 0". 'Cause you see they always assume that the short guys should date the short girls but what they don't realize is that most of the short guys don't want the short guys either going for the tall 6 footers and up.

Go to Yahoo Answers and just type in the phrases "short men", "heightism" and see what you get. Women are unbudgeable about this. Most women simply do not like short men. Fat women worry about men not fully liking their form? Well short men don't even get this. They are tolerated or seen as having something else to "make up for it". Can you imagine a man saying something like that to you? "You're fat but you're pretty in the face so that makes up for it." Isn't that one of the lines fat women hate? "You'd look good if you lost 20 to 30 pounds." But men get these kind of comments from women all the time when they're short if they get any positive attention at ALL. They call short men unmasculine. Can you imagine men calling fat women unfeminine? And some do. I've seen it. I've heard some very disgusting comments from men about fat women. Sickening. I tend to shout the praises of the big girls when I'm in the midst of such a situation.

I'm a black man and this is possibly my entry into wanting to eradicate these kinds of attitudes. They say my kind is genetically dumb. Didn't James Watson put my people down not too long ago? It has been long told that black people's skulls are small so that they cannot be as smart or as capable as a white. That we are savages who have to be trained and have no self control. That we are born for subservient roles. That we can't be leaders. That we can't be CEOs, quarterbacks, coaches. That we are ugly and beastly. That we have contributed nothing to civilization on Earth. That we live in mud huts and our people are hopeless helpless and hapless. So maybe that anger at those assessments of my people gives me fuel to end it for other people discriminated against because of who THEY are.



> I'm not sure if this is supposed to make a fat women feel better for being a fat woman because there are scores of men online willing to treat them like meat. When a man doesn't care to really "know you better" or thinks that you deserve honesty and respect, that is how he is treating you- like a slab of meat with no feelings or value.


There's nothing wrong with sex. I don't follow those Puritanical mindsets. Sex objects? Damn right. We BOTH are. Focal points of lust, desire and passion. You better HOPE your man sees you as a sex object when he wants to have sex with you. You think that means he sees you as a sex toy and that's not it at all. I want MY woman to hunger and lust for me. To see me as hot and fine. To get sprung when she's in my presence. I WANT her to see me as a sex object. I want to be appreciated MIND, BODY, and SOUL. There is no crime in lusting for another. Meat? That's right. We ARE meat. A woman can hunger for a man like a piece of meat and STILL want to know more about him. That wrestler/movie star The Rock? His wife didn't see his personality as an impetus to get to know Rocky. She said he was 'fine'. I heard the interview. She saw him as a sex object and that's ALL it took for her to get to know this guy. Then she liked his mind and his soul along with his body.

Slab of meat? Hahahaha. There's nothing wrong with admiring the body or you wouldn't name this a FAT acceptance movement, would you? Fat is a physicality. Just because a man likes your looks doesn't mean he doesn't want to be honest and respectful or get to know you better. America has a long way to go with its schizophrenia about sexuality. We make things soooo difficult.

Some men look at you as nothing but sex toys, sure, but it ain't all.



> I can agree that Dims is a nice place for size acceptance and support from others. However, it's not really a dating service and when I approach it for what it is, I enjoy my time here. I come here for the friendship and warmth I find- not to make love connections. (Though I am quite happy for those that have found love here  )


Well, that's cool. There's no command that says how people should approach this place. Communities serve many purposes simultaneously.



> Ermmmm...didn't you just say that men want intelligence in a women yet you say that some women "think too much"?:doh: Not a damn thing wrong with analyzing a situation...and seeing it for what it really is.


Missed the point. There's thinking and OVERthinking. OVERthinking can paralyze you into inaction. Trust me I should know. I can be an overthinker sometimes. Always planning everything out. I don't even drive without a set-in-mind itinerary all mapped out in my head. "I'll go here first and then take a left which brings me in a loop back to the intersection and then I'll drive north down the highway and stop at this store leaving from the south exit so I can hit the cable place before it closes then swoop back to the supermarket which I can catch at the turn signal so I don't have to wait on traffic." See that? Sometimes I end up not leaving the house because I missed the leaving time which would throw my schedule off as I face the surmounting traffic. I postpone it for another day. It's what I did with my water bill yesterday.  I'll have to reschedule that for Monday. Hahahaha!

Sometimes it's best to just GO for it.



> I agree with this part.....we are spoon fed a lot of bullshit. That if we just look pretty, lie there and be sweet, some man will "rescue us" and make it all better. What a load of shit......


Both sexes are fed bullshit. All social conditioning that keeps us confused about what's really going on. It takes time to undo this conditioning and it take a shattering or a least a smudging of the rose-colored glasses that keep us in these fantasies. We think a lot of what we do is biological and natural when many times it's just socialized. It's conditioning from society who were conditioned by other societies of the past. Sorting truth from fiction is a rewarding task that gives a clearer view of the way things work.



> Not sure what you're trying to say in this part.....us BBW's should "lighten up" and just let guys sniff our butts because that's "natural"? Men humping us and dumping us is "natural" too- so we should just let it happen? Wow.....


No. I'm say quit complicating the process. This goes for men too. We enact all of these games and routines and it leaves us all F'd up. We need to simplify it. Look at other societies, more primitive societies in their mating routines. I can guarantee you they don't make it near as complicated. The Canela tribe of Brazil has a beautiful social order where men and women get along so wonderfully. No one seems unloved or uncared for or neglected. And sex is exchanged generously without a bunch of angst. I'm talking about these artificial rituals we put together that get in the way what really matters. When I put the examples in there I'm trying add some brevity and humor to the situation. But there is truth in that. I don't see dogs with anxieties about relationships or bonobos in distress about mating. Human beings unnecessarily complicate MANY things besides mating and dating.



> I can't speak for the other lady, JL, but *I* have given men similar to what is on your list here "chances". I was married to two of them.


Cool. And if it didn't work it didn't work out but you gave them the chance to prove themselves. Another similar is not like them. It's easy to say no more red berries when you get sick from a red berry. But some red berries are cherries and some are strawberries and they may taste very good and not make you sick. Don't just give up on the red berries because their red berries. It's a natural animal response of course but we can distinguish one from another and know the difference.



> I have often seen it asked about "what preferences people have for the perfect mate". The overwhelming majority of men usually start off with the physical.....


What do you expect from a man? You DO want to date a MAN don't you? Men who try to repress these feelings begin to betray themselves. Some women wanted a man who was not like a man so bad that they ended up with what turned out to be a gay man. Terry McMillan is an example (she wrote Waiting to Exhale). She didn't like the behavior of a man so she sought a man who was totally alien to those ways. And then come to find out there was a reason for that. As she eventually found out.

Women worry about men liking the physical. You're not gonna have many men if you're preoccupied with that. I don't care what they say all men (and women for that matter) express the physical attributes they look for in a mate. They just might do it differently but to think women don't think of the physical is another one of those socialized fantasies going around. But men ALSO look for more than just the physical from a woman if they're looking for more than just sex.

"He should like me for my mind" What? He's gonna see your body first. He'll experience your mind once he gets up close. I'm telling ya. The Puritans have done a number on Americans' attitudes towards sexuality. It's slowly changing though as people begin to put away the fairy tales.

John Lucas


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 27, 2007)

Is there some reason you keep pimping the small penis site? Because you keep mentioning it.

I have to be honest with you. I really do not see the leaders of the Size Acceptance community taking on the small penis cause. That is not to say the guys aren't welcome here...I mean they can come over and take notes...it's just that most people have enough on their plate (no pun intended) without having to educate men with small penises on how to have higher self esteem and how to form a civil rights based effort.

Edited to add: I can not speak for everyone on Dims, but I, personally, promise to not discriminate against you for having a small penis. I am fine with it! You can ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you, "LoveBHMS will never speak ill of a man for having a small penis."


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## RedVelvet (Oct 27, 2007)

John Lucas..

I get it....I do.

You are on a one man crusade to save people from self loathing and loneliness.


Good for you. And I honestly think your heart is in the right place.

But.

Your fucking technique needs work, man. You browbeat people to death, are aggressive and antagonistic, and are simply way too fucking verbose, period.

Write a manifesto, Sir. Write a fucking book.

Also...the visiting the sites that are not your personal issue or problem thing (tiny penis comes to mind, and I am assuming in your benefit, of course)....and browbeating under the guise of support and help is really bizarre.


You need to understand this.....You are really coming from a good place, I am sure, but you are coming off as deeply bizarre. To the majority. Trust me.


Write that manifesto! Put that good energy somewhere....else.


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## ripley (Oct 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> Is there some reason you keep pimping the small penis site? Because you keep mentioning it.



He did the last time he was here, too. 

He's the verbose, 6ft. tall, well-endowed champion of the little people, don'tchaknow.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 27, 2007)

ripley said:


> He did the last time he was here, too.
> 
> He's the verbose, 6ft. tall, well-endowed champion of the little people, don'tchaknow.



I just assumed he had a small penis.

I mean, if I were trying to prove a point and said "Let me underscore this by showing you a post I made on a website for people with the gout" you could all safely assume I had the gout.

Or if I said, "let me show you what I said on a website whose mission was improving people's tennis game." I would think you'd feel safe in believing I played tennis.

And so....when Mr. Lucas says he frequents a website whose state purpose it is to support men who have small penises, and that means less than 2 inches erect, I assume that Mr. Lucas does in fact have a small penis.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 27, 2007)

ripley said:


> He did the last time he was here, too.
> 
> He's the verbose, 6ft. tall, well-endowed champion of the little people, don'tchaknow.



ROFLMAO!!


John your posts gave me a headache - be less wordy.:doh:


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## ripley (Oct 27, 2007)

LoveBHMS said:


> I just assumed he had a small penis.
> 
> I mean, if I were trying to prove a point and said "Let me underscore this by showing you a post I made on a website for people with the gout" you could all safely assume I had the gout.
> 
> ...




Now you've done it. Now he's going to tell us, at length, all about tennis and gout.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 27, 2007)

ripley said:


> Now you've done it. Now he's going to tell us, at length, all about tennis and gout.



And how DARE WE COMPLAIN if we are finding it hard to find gout free men with da wicked backhand....

Remember....we get to be as picky as we like....as long as WE NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT IT....... EVER.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 27, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> And how DARE WE COMPLAIN if we are finding it hard to find gout free men with da wicked backhand....
> 
> Remember....we get to be as picky as we like....as long as WE NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT IT....... EVER.



Your problem is expecting to find a man who does not have gout. And plays tennis. If you are not willing to date baboon style, by going out with every man that sniffs your ass, well then.

Just.Too.Picky.

That or you are discriminating against men like John Lucas who have small penises.


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## johnlucas (Oct 27, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> John Lucas..
> 
> I get it....I do.
> 
> ...



Thank you Red Velvet for understanding. No for the others who need to know I am nowhere near small in genital size. I am not short (I'm 6 ft. tall) and I am not fat (I'm 145-150 pounds). Just because I highlight someone else's plight doesn't mean I am of that population. I always speak up about fat women in other forums and I'm a skinny man.
I simply care about other people and I hate to see people treated poorly and unfairly. That's all. More people need to care about more problems outside of themselves. That's how empathy begins and compassion sprouts. Only good things come from that.

I'm done essaying for now. I've said all I needed to say. I just wanted Fascinista not to accept resignation about her situation because she sounds like a winner to me. Yeah, I 'm wordy. I try to pack so much into one post trying to get each parcel of truth in there and I overdo it. You only have people's attention for a little while so you try to make an impression on them while the iron is hot.

I example other's people's plights so that may begin a broader understanding of the larger issue about ostracization and marginalization. When you're so inwardly focused sometimes you miss the big picture. I've discovered that in each forum of body image issues I visited.

If I come off too rough, I'm sorry. But I want to bring a new understanding and clearer understanding of the issues that people may not have considered. Instead of the usual binary 'A-B' kind of thing back and forth I'm trying to bring the 'C'.

John Lucas


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 27, 2007)

So you visit all sorts of body image forums, bringing good cheer.

Sweet.

But listen, if you DO have a small penis, it's ok to keep posting here. Nobody will discriminate against you for it. It is really really nice of an average sized penis'd man like you to speak out for your smaller penis'd brethren.

And thank you so much for the "C". Nobody around here has brought the "C" in the longest time.


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## ripley (Oct 27, 2007)

mossystate said:


> This guy is like going to church to hear a preacher preach..but knowing you are not going to get that sweet slug of wine during the mid-preach break.



Lower your standards, you drunken gout-riddled hag. 



Um...what's gout? Isn't that something they had in the olden days?


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## RedVelvet (Oct 27, 2007)

johnlucas said:


> I example other's people's plights so that may begin a broader understanding of the larger issue about ostracization and marginalization. When you're so inwardly focused sometimes you miss the big picture. I've discovered that in each forum of body image issues I visited.




Fine......but consider this: Message boards are frequently about a GIVEN TOPIC. Hence.....a great deal of focus on said topic.

You might *not be getting the full picture of someone's interior landscape* if you are seeing them only focus on the TOPIC of discussion. If you met me on another board you might think my ENTIRE WORLD is about period clothing and reconstruction, as well as vintage fabric. My whole....freaking...world.

You assumed a GREAT deal about the poster you responded to in terms of her self esteem, lifestyle, and dating approaches...and then, having made up your mind about her and deciding you KNEW all you needed to know, as well as assuming that her mind was not supple enough to work it out without browbeating her, proceeded to tell her what she was doing wrong. In everhumping detail.

A mistake. A big one. Again. Your heart is in the right place...I am hoping that with time your desire to spread compassion takes a gentler and more empathetic tone.

You are not winning friends here...and sometimes being kind is more effective than being right.

Take it from a bitch who knows.


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

This hag does not care if his tone changes. Why should I...there are so many great people on this planet, and more than a couple have found their way here. 

I have found that I can only try and change 2 people at a time...I have tested with larger groups..and..nope...2 at a time. I have one opening, but I am waiting for someone with a real crazy mofo spark..not Mr. Imagonnashowyousethelight. I need my subjects to do more than make me yawn.


Monique Maria


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## hamsterdance (Oct 28, 2007)

Fascinita said:


> Seriously. Men just aren't coming forward, JL.
> 
> Yet online it appears to be a different situation. Men who say they like their women fat are everywhere online.
> 
> So I have to wonder why it is that though there are plenty of fat admirers online, few materialize in the real world, at least in my experience.



It's simple really. It's an example of the _*Frequency Illusion*_ fallacy. That is...once people start noticing something...whether in Real Life..or in this case Online...they will start noticing it a lot more and of course it _seems_ to be more frequent than is true of the general populace.

Or for the posters in this forum (and getting a bit Darwinian) of your Local Conditions (meaning the Local Niche - in this case the local pool of FA's available to you at any given time within any given radius of you). And because they are so frequent Online it's easy to draw the (erroneous) conclusion that it's easy to just go find yourself FAs offline too.

This of course skews everyone's perception. And I think it's partly at the root of why people tend to not like help or advice from others who have not walked the same miles in their shoes.

It's also an example of why Statistics and Informal Logic can be illuminating for some social problems.

For a rather technical explanation of the Frequency Illusion you can go to > http://www.cog.brown.edu/~slomanlab/papers/FrequencyIllusions.pdf


----------



## RedVelvet (Oct 28, 2007)

mossystate said:


> This hag does not care if his tone changes. Why should I...there are so many great people on this planet, and more than a couple have found their way here.




Did you know, my beautiful friend.....that the original definition of the word "Hag" is "wise woman"?

Bet you did...


And if course.....in that case...it applies?


----------



## RedVelvet (Oct 28, 2007)

hamsterdance said:


> It's simple really. It's an example of the _*Frequency Illusion*_ fallacy. That is...once people start noticing something...whether in Real Life..or in this case Online...they will start noticing it a lot more and of course it _seems_ to be more frequent than is true of the general populace.
> 
> Or for the posters in this forum (and getting a bit Darwinian) of your Local Conditions (meaning the Local Niche - in this case the local pool of FA's available to you at any given time within any given radius of you). And because they are so frequent Online it's easy to draw the (erroneous) conclusion that it's easy to just go find yourself FAs offline too.
> 
> ...





I always called it the "Tan Van Syndrome"......your ex drives a tan van....you then see them everywhere.

Its why news cycles...man....you get one baby in a dumpster story...and suddenly there's dozens.

Humans: not the greatest argument for intelligent design.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 28, 2007)

johnlucas said:


> OK. *Warm* as in kind, compassionate, understanding, affectionate.
> *Cold* as in mean, heartless, denigrating, hands-offish.
> 
> That good?



It would have been if I didn't know the difference already....I'm just not sure why you are so ready to label such a big portion of women this way, then say that "humans in general are cold" as your reasoning. If that is the situation, then aren't a large number of men cold as well? Gee, you don't think that women can get just as defensive as men when faced with the "coldness" of it all? My main curiosity was why you wanted to group a large portion of women this way- and didn't include males into that equation until I asked. 




johnlucas said:


> You haven't heard a man refer to a woman as warm or cold? Ask a married man or long-term boyfriend about his woman. He'll tell you. Warm. Cold.



I was married long term...hence married men aren't an alien form to me. I rarely hear anyone use these terms as a generalization- they tend to tack them onto individuals they have dealt with personally. 

Were you saying that married men usually think of their wives as cold or warm? I would think they have broader opinions than that...may I ask if you have ever been married, JL, since you are speaking about how married men think?


johnlucas said:


> I mean she was listing HER qualities first of all. And I was analyzing those qualities as to how many men would take them. I don't know what this "live off the mothers" thing came from. I don't know WHERE you're getting this economic class thing from. You lost me there.



Hey, you seem comfortable sharing your personal experiences with the opposite sex- just thought it would be okay if I shared mine as well 




johnlucas said:


> Hey, isn't it their right to choose? I just wrote a whole essay about it in response to a poster earlier. You can't be mad at men being selective. Everybody's selective. This is what I was getting at. Sour grapes when one is picked and chosen from but no connection with the pickiness and choosiness of the one discriminated against. Here's a thread for you from Chubby Parade Forum where guys detail the pickiness of fat women towards them, these loyal FA's. I posted on one of those pages in the thread.
> 
> 
> A 6'0" tall 157 pound man who is a loud and proud FA being selected against by the BBWs he covets. Some women there said those kind of things didn't matter and others detailed their choosiness and defended their right to BE choosy. And it IS their right. However, if HE chooses to be overly picky about the type of BBWs he would go out with then he can't complain, can he? Perhaps he is choosy, perhaps he is not..




Ermmm...of course they have all the rights to their preferences but....weren't you the guy in the previous post that just told women to "stop being so picky" and stop having "such high standards" and you keep carrying on about guys with small penises....so what is wrong with a woman wanting her guy to have a big old schlong? 
If a man loves my big chest and butt, feels so-so about my stomach- it's all good. And since he has a right to HIS preferences, what is wrong if I think I would enjoy sex more with him if his penis was an inch or two bigger? 
Dude, I like big penises- ain't a damn thing wrong with them and no one is going to guilt me for MY preferences- especially since no man on this board apologizes for theirs either. 
I also like tall guys, guys with muscles, guys with thick hair, guys with nice eyes and smile... the list can go on and on.
Do I make all those things deal-breakers when talking to a man that I might date? Nope.....so it is bothersome to me when I realize a man is doing that to me. 
Even if a guy finds me physically attractive and is quite vocal about it, I find myself bothered if I think he can't see beyond it. In the end, if I want a friend, lover and companion and a guy that wants nothing more than sex ain't it. 




johnlucas said:


> Now you guys have NOTHING on this group of people. They REALLY catch hell in relationships. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna show you this MySpace blog I found from some site where* small men are talked about like genetic trash unworthy of human contact.*



Wow.....and fat women (and men) NEVER get treated this way......:doh:




johnlucas said:


> While you have an extensive network that is building, these guys hardly have anything and as men socialized in this society usually have told no one of their plight so the community becomes that much more important. And when I say small I'm not talking about just 5 inches or 4 inches. Some of these guys are 2 inches erect. How are they going to have a relationship with a woman? How are they gonna start a family? You don't see *enough* regard attention towards YOUR being. They see hardly NONE.



Instead of constantly trying to convince us we are so "lucky" we are fat women instead of little penis guys because we have places like this, why don't you start your own forum for small guys? It seems to be a big deal (no pun intended ) to you. A guys penis size isn't a big deciding factor to me....so I am getting bored with hearing about the plight of small penis men. Hell, why don't you give some equal time to small breasted women, too? 
How many women of all sizes are getting implants? Everyone can even SEE their stuff up front (pun intended this time ). 




johnlucas said:


> Go to Yahoo Answers and just type in the phrases "short men", "heightism" and see what you get. Women are unbudgeable about this. Most women simply do not like short men. Fat women worry about men not fully liking their form? Well short men don't even get this. They are tolerated or seen as having something else to "make up for it". Can you imagine a man saying something like that to you? "You're fat but you're pretty in the face so that makes up for it." Isn't that one of the lines fat women hate? "You'd look good if you lost 20 to 30 pounds." But men get these kind of comments from women all the time when they're short if they get any positive attention at ALL. They call short men unmasculine. Can you imagine men calling fat women unfeminine? And some do. I've seen it. I've heard some very disgusting comments from men about fat women. Sickening. I tend to shout the praises of the big girls when I'm in the midst of such a situation.



You said earlier this shouldn't be a "battle of the sexes" but most of your posts here seem to be on the same path about small men have it much harder than big women. Once again, how do you know? I conceded that sizeism works on both sexes....why do you keep going off on these tangents? 



johnlucas said:


> There's nothing wrong with sex. I don't follow those Puritanical mindsets. Sex objects? Damn right. We BOTH are. Focal points of lust, desire and passion. You better HOPE your man sees you as a sex object when he wants to have sex with you. You think that means he sees you as a sex toy and that's not it at all. I want MY woman to hunger and lust for me. To see me as hot and fine. To get sprung when she's in my presence. I WANT her to see me as a sex object. I want to be appreciated MIND, BODY, and SOUL. There is no crime in lusting for another. Meat? That's right. We ARE meat. A woman can hunger for a man like a piece of meat and STILL want to know more about him. That wrestler/movie star The Rock? His wife didn't see his personality as an impetus to get to know Rocky. She said he was 'fine'. I heard the interview. She saw him as a sex object and that's ALL it took for her to get to know this guy. Then she liked his mind and his soul along with his body.
> 
> Slab of meat? Hahahaha. There's nothing wrong with admiring the body or you wouldn't name this a FAT acceptance movement, would you? Fat is a physicality. Just because a man likes your looks doesn't mean he doesn't want to be honest and respectful or get to know you better. America has a long way to go with its schizophrenia about sexuality. We make things soooo difficult.
> 
> Some men look at you as nothing but sex toys, sure, but it ain't all.



Who said anything against sex? My previous post was more about the treatment of women by some men online than about sex. Not all the women that come here are interested in sex...and even those that are don't necessarily want it from just any guy here that approaches them. Once again, women are allowed their preferences, too. I have noticed that a lot of us tend to prefer men that can show some self-control, good manners, consideration and are even willing to spend some time letting the woman size them up, as well, instead of assuming that fat women are desperate enough to let just any schmuck hump them and skip all the small talk. It is offensive as hell when a man has the gall to ask me my weight, measurements, etc before he has even asked me my name. I'm willing to bet a whole helluva lot of money that this bothers most other women, too. Funny how you said women have to "accept" some things about men- well it seems that men have to do the same. 




johnlucas said:


> Cool. And if it didn't work it didn't work out but you gave them the chance to prove themselves. Another similar is not like them. It's easy to say no more red berries when you get sick from a red berry. But some red berries are cherries and some are strawberries and they may taste very good and not make you sick. Don't just give up on the red berries because their red berries. It's a natural animal response of course but we can distinguish one from another and know the difference.



I find your analogy of berries and cherries amusing because I thought you pretty much said "don't go cherry picking" when talking about how picky women were earlier. 




johnlucas said:


> What do you expect from a man? You DO want to date a MAN don't you? Men who try to repress these feelings begin to betray themselves. Some women wanted a man who was not like a man so bad that they ended up with what turned out to be a gay man. Terry McMillan is an example (she wrote Waiting to Exhale). She didn't like the behavior of a man so she sought a man who was totally alien to those ways. And then come to find out there was a reason for that. As she eventually found out.



I watched "Stella got her Groove Back" this morning  so I am familiar with who Terry McMillan is. 
If your point in that part of your post is that some women have unreal expectations of men, I see that here sometimes. I have the impression that some think the term "FA" means knight in shining armor- there is no such thing. I, myself, admit to having been disillusioned in the past- you will notice that some women tend to lose these illusions as we mature. 
However, in all fairness, you cannot say that men don't have the same issues, sometimes. Some want a smart, sweet, beautiful Lady- that never gets angry, never has any expectations of him and will always look the same. How's that for unreal expectations? 


johnlucas said:


> Women worry about men liking the physical. You're not gonna have many men if you're preoccupied with that. I don't care what they say all men (and women for that matter) express the physical attributes they look for in a mate. They just might do it differently but to think women don't think of the physical is another one of those socialized fantasies going around. But men ALSO look for more than just the physical from a woman if they're looking for more than just sex.



I never disagreed that women like the physical- just said that it sometimes seems way more important to men when it comes to decision making. 
You seem to want to say it is wrong of women to want the physical, while calling it "natural" when men do the same. 
Isn't it natural for women to like a tall guy with a huge dick? Just saying.....


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## Katie_Val (Oct 28, 2007)

I would love to encounter an FA in real life!! Maybe if there were more men where I live that are FA's...then the stigma that goes along with overweight beautiful women wouldn't be so overwhelming!


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## Tina (Oct 29, 2007)

John, just one question: do you know a woman named Marcelline?


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## hamsterdance (Oct 29, 2007)

Tina said:


> John, just one question: do you know a woman named Marcelline?



JohnLucas is unlikely to reply anymore as I recall he stated he was done with this thread a few posts back. I found this forum thanks to him posting about it on Measurection and LPSG. He ticked off the people at _both_ of those forums so bad I got curious to see how other people would react to him elsewhere. So far in _*every*_ forum (not just this one and the 2 I'm from) I've tracked him down to he's managed to ruffle feathers the wrong way EVERYTIME. 

The guys at Measurection (the small penis forum) are particularly rather um...unimpressed with him to say the least. It doesn't help that he himself doesn't have a small penis and they know it. Having a large-endowed man preach at them about the horrors of having a small penis hasn't exactly endeared him to them.

I can vouch he's a good guy despite his habit of ticking off the people he claims need his help as I've talked to him on Yahoo IM. I keep telling him he needs to drop the preachiness, know-it-all attitude and windbag posts but it always goes in one ear and out the other. 

BTW...I've been browsing this forum since discovering it. I am _so_ happy to see a place like this exists! I didn't know such sites existed. I would love to see every man and woman here find their true love and happiness! You all deserve it. I think I'm going to tell my mother about this site. I think it could be a great place for her as well. 

Edit: And yes...I've dated BHMs. My ex of 10 years would qualify for this site. He was a wonderful guy and still is.

Cheers to everyone here.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 29, 2007)

I am so glad we are not the only ones to find his savior tactics tiresome in the extreme.

christ....I hate a zealot...whatever the form.







hamsterdance said:


> JohnLucas is unlikely to reply anymore as I recall he stated he was done with this thread a few posts back. I found this forum thanks to him posting about it on Measurection and LPSG. He ticked off the people at _both_ of those forums so bad I got curious to see how other people would react to him elsewhere. So far in _*every*_ forum (not just this one and the 2 I'm from) I've tracked him down to he's managed to ruffle feathers the wrong way EVERYTIME.
> 
> The guys at Measurection (the small penis forum) are particularly rather um...unimpressed with him to say the least. It doesn't help that he himself doesn't have a small penis and they know it. Having a large-endowed man preach at them about the horrors of having a small penis hasn't exactly endeared him to them.
> 
> ...


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 29, 2007)

Tina said:


> John, just one question: do you know a woman named Marcelline?



HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


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## Tina (Oct 29, 2007)

hamsterdance said:


> I can vouch he's a good guy despite his habit of ticking off the people he claims need his help as I've talked to him on Yahoo IM. I keep telling him he needs to drop the preachiness, know-it-all attitude and windbag posts but it always goes in one ear and out the other.
> 
> BTW...I've been browsing this forum since discovering it. I am _so_ happy to see a place like this exists! I didn't know such sites existed. I would love to see every man and woman here find their true love and happiness! You all deserve it. I think I'm going to tell my mother about this site. I think it could be a great place for her as well.
> 
> ...



Heh. Great handle.  Cheers to you, too, and welcome, hamsterdance! I'm glad you found us, and that you find value in this board. Please welcome your mother, but before you do, you might want to make sure the Paysite board and Weight Boards don't freak her out.  Some have a hard time with them.

I totally know what you're talking about, as we tend to not value preaching from skinny people here. I can imagine the men to which you refer would resent such posts. I have no idea who John is, but I have to say that I rarely make it even halfway through any of his posts; they are simply too long and he does himself a disservice in not being able to cut out the dead wood there.


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## hamsterdance (Oct 29, 2007)

johnlucas said:


> Maybe that's the point. Maybe people need to quit looking for these lockdown relationships where people stay together forever and ever. A lot of young guys AND old guys ain't about that no more. I don't know if you've heard of www.nomarriage.com or this site Men Going Their Own Way. For different and sometimes same reasons between the generations.
> 
> Many of the older guys have been burnt in LTRs and now don't feel like tying down anymore because of the high costs in doing so. Many of the young guys are just naturally in the test-out phase so they don't worry about it. And vice versa.



I doubt JL will be back to read this but on the odd chance that he does I would like to say that while I believe such men have the right to live their carefree single life as they please I will do everything I can to avoid even the most casual dates with such men. It's a painful thing to fall for a Fairweather-I-only-want-to-fuck-you, not-be-exclusive-with-you-Man. 

Emotions sometimes get away from us despite the best of initial intentions. It's happened on more than one occasion for me. So I've learned it's best to avoid men who have this life philosophy. Failing that...I dump their asses fast. These men need to date women with the same philosophy on relationships as their own. Or else hire an Escort...that's why you hire one...You pay her not just for the sex but so she'll GO AWAY once the sex is over. That's *really* what your paying for.

I would advise any other woman here who dreams of having a future that doesn't involve elderly spinster-hood to stick to her guns and avoid and/or dump these men you say they should date if they want something more. Don't *EVER* settle for anything less than what you want. Just DON'T.


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## Tina (Oct 30, 2007)

Amen, sista! 

Well, you started off here with a bang, hamsterdance. Hope you don't plan on leaving any time soon.


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## waldo (Oct 31, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> I am so glad we are not the only ones to find his savior tactics tiresome in the extreme.
> 
> christ....I hate a zealot...whatever the form.



Curse if you must, but some people take great offense at seeing the Lord's name used in vain - perhaps you could substitute a different expletive (and this is coming from a foul-mouthed agnostic).



Tina said:


> Amen, sista!
> 
> Well, you started off here with a bang, hamsterdance. Hope you don't plan on leaving any time soon.



Maybe Hamsterdance and John Lucas are actually the same person - one with far too much time on his/her hands. It is always suspicious for someone to show up on the scene in this kind of situation saying they know this guy from elsewhere on the net and he is really a good guy. If so, very clever attempt to make it seem legit. 

And John, I have to agree with others who said your posts are much much too long.


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## RedVelvet (Oct 31, 2007)

waldo said:


> Curse if you must, but some people take great offense at seeing the Lord's name used in vain - perhaps you could substitute a different expletive (and this is coming from a foul-mouthed agnostic).




Ok...I'll stop as soon as the tube feeding posts are removed....they are of great, personal, even spiritual offense to me, and my beliefs come before others, because....um...they just do.


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## Jack Skellington (Oct 31, 2007)

RedVelvet said:


> Ok...I'll stop as soon as the tube feeding posts are removed....they are of great, personal, even spiritual offense to me, and my beliefs come before others, because....um...they just do.



God dammit, I can't rep you again yet.


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## Tina (Oct 31, 2007)

waldo said:


> Maybe Hamsterdance and John Lucas are actually the same person - one with far too much time on his/her hands. It is always suspicious for someone to show up on the scene in this kind of situation saying they know this guy from elsewhere on the net and he is really a good guy. If so, very clever attempt to make it seem legit.


That certainly could be, waldo. Lots of people do that, eh? 

In any case, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, as I have at other times here. All I care about as a mod is that people not behave like trolls and cause problems. The rest is... eh. People are people, and it takes all kinds.


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## hamsterdance (Oct 31, 2007)

waldo said:


> Maybe Hamsterdance and John Lucas are actually the same person - one with far too much time on his/her hands. It is always suspicious for someone to show up on the scene in this kind of situation saying they know this guy from elsewhere on the net and he is really a good guy. If so, very clever attempt to make it seem legit.



Last time I checked I didn't have a penis - although I sure am rather fond of them.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 31, 2007)

waldo said:


> Maybe Hamsterdance and John Lucas are actually the same person - one with far too much time on his/her hands. It is always suspicious for someone to show up on the scene in this kind of situation saying they know this guy from elsewhere on the net and he is really a good guy. If so, very clever attempt to make it seem legit.
> 
> And John, I have to agree with others who said your posts are much much too long.



It's possible John posted a link to here from there saying, "Look at the brilliant post I just made to these people..." which seems to be his M.O. Hamsterdance may just be someone who was morbidly curious enough to click on the link to see what was over here and felt inclined to say a few words.


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## hamsterdance (Oct 31, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> It's possible John posted a link to here from there saying, "Look at the brilliant post I just made to these people..." which seems to be his M.O. Hamsterdance may just be someone who was morbidly curious enough to click on the link to see what was over here and felt inclined to say a few words.



John uses the BBW movement (or whatever yall call it) plenty in his posts across the web.

He mentions yall in his very first post at Measurection right here tinyurl.com/2wupgx (cut and paste)

Here he mentions BBWs in yet another of his windy posts at LPSG > tinyurl.com/yv8ezy (cut and paste)

I could pull posts from other places around the web where he mentions BBWs (and sometimes Dimensions too) in his arguments that other marginalized groups need to be inspired by. 

Although...actually of all the groups he's posted at the one he has the least sympathy for is for is guys with large penises though he claims to be the owner of one (8"). Though to the true Size Queens of LPSG he does not qualify as large, only medium. True large doesn't begin until you hit 9.5 inches to the Size Queens of LPSG (they may be right as there are Photo & 3rd Party Verified guys there - ruler in hand - measuring all the way up to 14x8 *shudder*)

And no...I'm not John Lucas. He just angered me at one time with his constant posts at Measure and LPSG about the woeful plight of the human race - enough that I started seeing what he was doing elsewhere. I finally came here because he kept mentioning BBWs/Dimensions and how small-penis men need to be inspired by this group and pattern their own "take-back-your-power-movement" after yall.

Sorry to offend. 

*sinks back to lurkdom*


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## RedVelvet (Oct 31, 2007)

No girl..no...thanks for this....a lot.

No slinkie..


and John Lucas..if he EVER comes back here...is going to get a verbal whipping of epic size from me.

Fecking great gobshite.


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## ekmanifest (Oct 31, 2007)

Would that verbal whipping be more or less than 9.5 inches?


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## ripley (Oct 31, 2007)

So he goes there to tell them about us, and here to tell us about them? What a busy little net worker he is!




johnlucas said:


> I thought I had a good handle on the problem but that's before I started studying men with small penises.



Oh my word....dying laughing.


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## Fascinita (Oct 31, 2007)

johnlucas said:


> Sounds like you have good qualities to me. Of course all men don't like fat women. But doggone it there's a LOT of 'em who do. Some closet, some open. The closet ones really need to stop being wimps about it.
> 
> Let's run through that list again.
> *Warm.*



Jeez, Louise, johnlucas! I don't know if I shouldn't feel flattered that you took the time to provide such a detailed deconstruction of my response. Were/are you hitting on me in some profoundly oblique manner?

OK, well, what can I say? I am stunned and amused at your verbosity. But I have no response  Busy working on my book and, well, I've heard views similar to yours expounded many times before. They don't keep me warm and they don't pay the bills.


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