# Drawing Abuse



## superodalisque (May 21, 2008)

i was wondering about all of the instances we see on the boards about the terrible things that have been done and said to fat people in society at large . i was wondering , do you think there is something besides fat that is drawing the abuse? what i mean is, could the expectation of how we will be treated because we are fat somehow help to create that reality? or am i just over-complicating things here?


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## ashmamma84 (May 21, 2008)

No, not over-complicating things. I think sometimes this is the case, a hypersensitivity to situations...a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I wonder if it's a thing of throwing the "fat card" around...like sometimes people throw the "race card" in the same fashion...?


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## tonynyc (May 21, 2008)

I was listening to WOR radio this morning and a comment was made by the radio host that according to the lastest findings from the Journal of Obesity Research (weight discrimination is on the rise).

Obesity Online (Weight Bias Slide Presentations)

http://www.obesityonline.org/slides/slide01.cfm?tk=44

-----------------------------------------------------------

It's just that every now and then you have to deal with some insensititve asshole(s) that have nothing better than to make life miserable for someone. 

It's safe to assume no "high" or "low" expectations on any interactions/dealings and just wait and see what happens and respond at the level you feel comfy with.


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## Ruffie (May 21, 2008)

Maybe to a certain extent that may be true, but I attribute it to the media's assault on obesity. Seriously when was the last time you turned on the TV and had more than 20 minutes without a diet ad, segment on a talk show, morning show or the news talking about how dangerous the "epidemic of obesity" is? If we see it and are affected by it what do you think the general population is feeling? After all they are hearing that we are costing them more health and insurance wise, are less productive, less desirable and on and on it goes. People with bigotry in their hearts will take it and run with it. Others that were on the fence say Hmm maybe these people need to look at themselves seriously and take it upon themselves to give us diet advice and motivate us to lose weight by telling us all we aren't by virtue of the size of our bodies. So in my mind, a rise in the incidents of abuse against fat people can be attributed to the steady diet of fat hating propaganda that is out there. 
Ruth


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## fatgirl33 (May 21, 2008)

Ruffie said:


> Seriously when was the last time you turned on the TV and had more than 20 minutes without a diet ad, segment on a talk show, morning show or the news talking about how dangerous the "epidemic of obesity" is? If we see it and are affected by it what do you think the general population is feeling?



I think this is the biggest scam in North America right now. Everyone complains about oil companies, but I don't think they have anything on the weight loss industry. Talk about preying on insecurities and creating a demand...

These businesses have a vested interest in people NOT accepting themselves, and NEVER believing that they are thin enough. And even if they were, they should join a gym (instead of going for a walk, which would be free) to ensure they remain that way.

This is why the Queen Latifah ads for Jenny Craig bug me so much. They've even taken "thin" out of the equation, but still you need to join Jenny to get to some other vague status. Because no matter what size you are, you're not quite right yet. Whatever that is. Join, pay, keep paying - because you may never know what "right" is.

I think the fight against fat is largely media driven, a huge psychological scam perpetrated for wealth, not health. I'm quite sure the media outlets could care less about the health of individual audience members.

Sigh, sorry for the rant!

Brenda


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## olwen (May 21, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i was wondering about all of the instances we see on the boards about the terrible things that have been done and said to fat people in society at large . i was wondering , do you think there is something besides fat that is drawing the abuse? what i mean is, could the expectation of how we will be treated because we are fat somehow help to create that reality? or am i just over-complicating things here?



Yes and no. Sometimes things happen that we expect and prepare for and sometimes things happen by surprise and sometimes we expect things to happen and they don't, but I think the energy you put out sometimes does affect your surroundings so to speak.

Now to read the other posts in this thread.


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## Fascinita (May 22, 2008)

In any case, abuse is abuse, right? For instance, if someone calls me a derogatory name related to my ethnicity, would it be possible to ask a question parallel to yours in that case? Something along the lines of, "Are people hurling ethnic insults at me because they are bigots, or is it my expectation that draws those insults?"

I just don't see it.


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## Chimpi (May 22, 2008)

In the simplest way I can summarize it, I think it's always just a case-by-case basis. Sure, I think there are some people that might be / are "hyper-sensitive" about being fat, and tend to sensationalize or enhance the negative thing being said/implied. But I do not think everyone is like that. I don't think every instance is like that. But, to answer your question, yes I think there are some cases like that.

Things are only going to affect you as much as you allow them to. Basically, right?


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## ripley (May 22, 2008)

The question you're asking is the equivalent to the chicken or the egg, really.

Fascinita is right (as usual ). Abuse is abuse and blaming the victim is not right in any case.


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## SparklingBBW (May 22, 2008)

As well as the usual suspects, I think a lot of it is fear on the part of the "abuser"; the recent "canklegate" being an example of that. As much as those two women love fat in men, they have an extreme fear of being fat themselves, and those fears were hatefully projected onto others as a way to distance themselves from a potential reality of being super-sized one day. 

Unfortunately, it's a basic human response to find some way to blame the victim no matter what kind of malady or injury or condition befalls them in order to maintain a cock-eyed sense of security that THAT could never happen to me because I would NEVER do or be such-and-such. Of course, just because it might be a basic human response, doesn't justify it or make it right. We all need to think outside our base selves and our base fears and realize everybody has some cross to bear (or will have some day), and a little bit of empathy goes a long way. 

These days I often find myself wishing that fat wasn't the only "issue" that shows itself so plainly on faces and bodies. Maybe alcoholics or drug abusers could turn green. OCD-ers could be safety orange. People with too much credit card debt and about to lose their homes to foreclosure could actually turn red since their finances are in the red. People with STDs could be splotchy all over. Anyway, my point being, everybody has SOMETHING going on in their lives, and if it were more readily apparent, then I think empathy and understanding and (dare I say it) COMPASSION might be the newest thing everyone wants to acquire. 

.
Gena


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## superodalisque (May 22, 2008)

i can understand the idea about not wanting o blame the victim but nowdays most therapists acknowledge that there are times when victims play into abuse and even subconsciously try to bring it about. this is especially evident when they look at spousal abuse. for a long time it was taboo to say so. but now that its beng explored people are finding ways to use the info to stop abuse before it happens and also as useful info in the treatment of the abuser and the person being abused.


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## SparklingBBW (May 22, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i can understand the idea about not wanting o blame the victim but nowdays most therapists acknowledge that there are times when victims play into abuse and even subconsciously try to bring it about. this is especially evident when they look at spousal abuse. for a long time it was taboo to say so. but now that its beng explored people are finding ways to use the info to stop abuse before it happens and also as useful info in the treatment of the abuser and the person being abused.



I agree with what you are saying, but I believe you are talking about the kind of abuse that comes from family members, spouses, etc. where the abused has a vested relationship with the abuser, something more insidious and long-term and systemic, i.e. somebody is abused by their parents and so then grows up and subconsciously seeks out an abusive life partner. 

In my example, I was speaking more about random acts of abuse from strangers, acquaintances, etc. 

Just to clarify


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## 1300 Class (May 22, 2008)

Sometimes I think the "fat card" is thrown into the ring sometimes a little to often (bandied about a little to much), a simple way of explaining a complex set of issues, therebye making it less proper when it really has been the core of the issue. This is not placing blame onto the victim, far from it, but a rationalisation of abuse, by justifying in easy and simple terms, which may have many other factors or nothing related to it forming the basic cause.

For example, say someone pushes you. Was the push because you were fat, or was it because you were "you (personality, situation, race, class, random, whatever), and the "fat card" is played anyway to make the justification easier?


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## SocialbFly (May 22, 2008)

ashmamma84 said:


> No, not over-complicating things. I think sometimes this is the case, a hypersensitivity to situations...a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> I wonder if it's a thing of throwing the "fat card" around...like sometimes people throw the "race card" in the same fashion...?



You know, i once learned a true lesson, i thought someone was staring at me, and yes, they were, and when i went and asked them if there was a problem, they just said they loved my hair and where did i get it done...sometimes we think it is one thing, when it is truly another, i pull the size card so rarely, but on the occasion i do pull it, i promise you, that is the issue.

But, having said that, i do agree that there are some that pull that card far too easily and quickly...we are defensive, society and media have made us so...doesnt mean we shouldnt strive for what is right...education to the ignorant masses is the key...


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## moore2me (May 22, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i was wondering about all of the instances we see on the boards about the terrible things that have been done and said to fat people in society at large . i was wondering , do you think there is something besides fat that is drawing the abuse? what i mean is, could the expectation of how we will be treated because we are fat somehow help to create that reality? or am i just over-complicating things here?



I think to some degree (not totally tho) we do add to the situation when abuse is potentially forthcoming. For example, two teenage boys see a fat girl and are in the mood to hurl insults in public at her. Which one do you think they are likely to torment?

a.) Someone who is shy, quiet, with her eyes turned down and not making any contact.
b.) Someone who has "fire in her eyes", looks fierce, and a wee bit dangerous.
c.) Someone who is smiling, joking, and very outgoing, talking to everyone.

Personally, I think predators (including hyenas) look for easy targets. I try not to appear to be an easy target if I can. And, I am not blaming the victim, just giving some advice on appearing to be a hard target.

Of course, this doesn't work (and I don't recommend it) with children. That's a whole different ballgame and we shouldn't try to scare the kiddos. With them being friendly and talking on their level works the best. (It also really helps to have parents that teach their kids good manners.)


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## 1300 Class (May 22, 2008)

> a.) Someone who is shy, quiet, with her eyes turned down and not making any contact.


That person is likely to be the target reguardless of their weight. The other two in the negative, reguardless of their weight. Of course their are the essential extraordinary examples that break the mold, however...


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## Zandoz (May 22, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i was wondering about all of the instances we see on the boards about the terrible things that have been done and said to fat people in society at large . i was wondering , do you think there is something besides fat that is drawing the abuse? what i mean is, could the expectation of how we will be treated because we are fat somehow help to create that reality? or am i just over-complicating things here?



No, I do not think being fat, or any subconscious act, causes anyone to be abusive. No one is transformed from respectful human being to obnoxious jerk by the proximity of fatness. The obnoxious jerks had it in them before encountering fat...the proximity of fat just happens to be a convenient acceptable excuse for them to let their true colors show.


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## Sugar (May 22, 2008)

What a great question!

I found for me personally 98% of my bad interactions with people were my doing. I've been various sizes and when I was a size I hated or just in a bad place emotionally I was more apt to be over sensitive, defensive and carried quite an attitude. I was very quick to pull the fat card. Now I'm more quick to assume someone is admiring me...and if they're not...well I'm still going to think that and keep my day going well! 

I'm sure not everyone is like that but I think on some level what energy we put out is exactly what we get back. Regardless if we mean it or are cognizant of it.


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## Falcon (May 22, 2008)

SocialbFly said:


> You know, i once learned a true lesson, i thought someone was staring at me, and yes, they were, and when i went and asked them if there was a problem, they just said they loved my hair and where did i get it done...sometimes we think it is one thing, when it is truly another,



I don't intend to move this thread in another direction but this comment triggered a personal memory that I'll toss into the mix. I remember when I was about 12 I was with my mom in a department store. She stopped at the make-up and perfume counter and was visiting with the clerk, while I was bored out of my mind. (I mean, what could be a bigger torture for a twelve year-old boy than to be shipwrecked in the make-up and perfume section of a department store, right?) 

Well, you know how department stores always seem to have the down escalator let you off right in front of the make-up and perfume counter? That's how this store was laid out. So, there I was. I'm sure I must have been squirming; I know I was embarrassed to be around all that girly stuff. I remember looking around and I glanced up at the escalator and saw this tall, SSBBW coming down in front of me. She was the largest woman I'd ever seen. Dark hair, very large upper arms and very large hips. It was one of those KLONG! moments in my life. I didn't mean to, but I know I was staring at her because when she got about ten feet from the end of the escalator she looked up and our eyes met. I don't know, it's like I was hooked; I couldn't stop looking at her. Well, when she saw me looking at her, she GLARED at me -- I mean, her eyes shot daggers in my direction. I was really embarrassed and I felt awful that I'd been staring at her and that she'd seen me. I figured I'd hurt her feelings.

But she completely misunderstood me. I thought she was -- I don't know -- "majestic" or "regal". I remember looking away when our eyes met, but I can still see the roll of her hips while she walked away from me. I thought about her for a long time after that.

Maybe the actions of a twelve year-old boy are different from older folks who should know better but it makes me think that sometimes a glance or a stare is actually a look of approval.


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## LillyBBBW (May 22, 2008)

moore2me said:


> I think to some degree (not totally tho) we do add to the situation when abuse is potentially forthcoming. For example, two teenage boys see a fat girl and are in the mood to hurl insults in public at her. Which one do you think they are likely to torment?
> 
> a.) Someone who is shy, quiet, with her eyes turned down and not making any contact.
> b.) Someone who has "fire in her eyes", looks fierce, and a wee bit dangerous.
> ...



Yes but like someone mentioned a while ago in another thread, why must I continually high kick like Jimmy Jam through the streets to keep people from hurling shit comments at me? Can't a shy fat woman walk down the street without being a target? Why aren't other shy people targets? I think we're missing the big picture here. If I don't wanna smile or I don't wanna scowl I dont' think that should be an open invitation for anybody with a pulse to say shit to me or hurl out abuse. So by being myself that means there's a sign on my forhead inviting all the good decent people in the world, " Go ahead and abuse me please! Indulge yours self righteous affirmations, I deserve it." ? It's not a good sell.


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## Tad (May 22, 2008)

Obviously there are scales and types of abuse, and I think the answer here might depend a bit on what type of abuse you have in mind.

I recall one time, back when my wife and I were engaged but not yet married, so she may have been a size 18. We were walking along the road from the university back towards her apartment. It was a mild winter day, and she was wearing a loose fitting hip length winter coat over jeans. Some car full of students overtook us from behind, and some credit to his parents had to lean out the window and yell Two words: Jenny Craig! I was furious because someone had insulted her and there was nothing I could do about it, and smoldered in the longer term because I think that may have been one of the things that started her thinking she was getting too fat. But certainly there was nothing there that invited the abuse, she was walking along, happy at the time, perfectly decently dressed, with her boyfriend beside her. It was just a random act of anti-fat bigotry / jerkiness.

I think the first act of abuse is usually at least somewhat random. But abusers sometimes find someone that they can continually victimize without apparent consequences, and will continue to do so. Sometimes they may even figure out that there is a whole class of people who they can usually get away with abusing. Jerks can be pretty clever, sometimes.


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## superodalisque (May 22, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> Yes but like someone mentioned a while ago in another thread, why must I continually high kick like Jimmy Jam through the streets to keep people from hurling shit comments at me? Can't a shy fat woman walk down the street without being a target? Why aren't other shy people targets? I think we're missing the big picture here. If I don't wanna smile or I don't wanna scowl I dont' think that should be an open invitation for anybody with a pulse to say shit to me or hurl out abuse. So by being myself that means there's a sign on my forhead inviting all the good decent people in the world, " Go ahead and abuse me please! Indulge yours self righteous affirmations, I deserve it." ? It's not a good sell.



i understand exactly where you are coming from. i agree. but, we don't live in an ideal world. fat women aren't targets but shy people are. i've seen lots of skinny people become victims of the dominant submissive thing. we don't get the get out of jail free card just because we are fat. and i don't think decent people are honing in on us as a target, just scarred damaged ones.


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## LillyBBBW (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i understand exactly where you are coming from. i agree. but, we don't live in an ideal world. fat women aren't targets but shy people are. i've seen lots of skinny people become victims of the dominant submissive thing. we don't get the get out of jail free card just because we are fat. and i don't think decent people are honing in on us as a target, just scarred damaged ones.



Are you serious? Fat women aren't targets? Have you turned on the TV lately or picked up a celebrity magazine at all? The gossip pages don't single out celebrities for being shy. The magazines aren't supplying tips month after month on how to shed your unsightly shy appearance. Seriously, I'm glad that you feel the way you do because it shows that you exist in an area of life that is relatively free from these kinds of comments and you merely need to flash your pearly whites to dispell any unpleasant situation. Just don't use your experiences in life as a tool to invalidate the reality of others. What works for Queen Latifa would never work for Rosie O'Donnell and she is far from shy.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 23, 2008)

Oh OK - I see. That spit wasn't meant for me. I just got in the way. Thanks for clearing that up for me!


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## NancyGirl74 (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i can understand the idea about not wanting o blame the victim but nowdays most therapists acknowledge that there are times when victims play into abuse and even subconsciously try to bring it about. this is especially evident when they look at spousal abuse. for a long time it was taboo to say so. but now that its beng explored people are finding ways to use the info to stop abuse before it happens and also as useful info in the treatment of the abuser and the person being abused.



I can only go by my personal experiences and observations on this topic and it's a touchy one for me... 

If by rarely fighting back and turning away from social settings because I didn't want to be hurt any more is "playing into the abuse" then maybe so. I was teased because of my weight (and for other reasons as well) by both boys and girls day after day from kindergarten until my senior year of high school. So, yes I hide myself away as best as I could. I was a child and I didn't know how to cope any differently. I thought that would be my life for the rest of my life. I don't feel that I played into the abuse but I didn't fight it either (not until I was older, anyway). I felt so beaten down that I didn't realize I _could_ fight back. I suppose allowed myself to be victimized in a way but I certainly didn't seek out the abuse. If anything I tried desperately to hide from it...which in hindsight is how _I _victimized _myself_. 

That being said, abusers are abusers no matter who their victims are or what they do to help create an abusive stituation. The 40 year old teacher who has sex with a 14 year old is still an abuser even if she came on to him. The husband who beats his wife is still an abuser even though she stays with him. The mother who abuses her child is still an abuser even though the child keeps misbehaving. It could be said that the 14 year old seductress, the battered wife, and the misbehaving kid were "playing into" the abuse but it doesn't change the fact that they were in fact abused. It doesn't excuse the abusers. No matter how much responsibility people (fat or otherwise) take upon themselves for the things they have consciously or unconsciously done to foster abusive situations, it should NEVER justify the abuse. Never, ever.


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## LillyBBBW (May 23, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Oh OK - I see. That spit wasn't meant for me. I just got in the way. Thanks for clearing that up for me!



No, it was meant for you Sandie alright. It was all your fault though for not being a sparkley sunny peppy Breck girl with bouncin' and bahavin' hair and a killer outfit that shows off your curvaceous legs. Shame on you for blowing your overbloated experiences out of proportion and being a niusance for the rest of us. Fat card tosser you.


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## TraciJo67 (May 23, 2008)

I know that I am treated far differently now than I was when I was heavier. I will acknowledge that I carried myself differently then, without even realizing how apologetic I felt for <gasp> being a fat woman. Given the constant subtle and overt cues that I got from others for daring to be fat in their presence, I can't imagine that I could have behaved much differently. I hadn't even realized the extent to which I was treated badly, because most of it wasn't in-your-face. Just ... constant, subtle reminders that I was less than human. Salespeople who wouldn't deign to serve me, despite my money being as green as theirs. Men who looked right through me as we crossed paths (God forbid, they ever nod pleasantly or open a door for me ... I might do something alarming, like smile back). Women who gave me the pitying "thank God I'm not _that_ fat" look. Certain "friends" who treated me well, yet when I lost the weight and became visible as something other than the safe fat friend, all of a sudden the claws came out. I was ill-equipped to deal with that latter bit, as it took me forever to understand that they viewed me as some kind of threat to their prize catches, rather than the ugly fat chick who was "safe" to be around said Calvin Klein underwear model . Being subjected to hideous comments by complete strangers while doing nothing more than shopping for my groceries. Or having so-called "well meaning" people approach me with various weight loss schemes. One thing that I observed, and had a difficult time adjusting to, was the wide berth that people gave me when I was heavy. I grew accustomed to that, and when I lost weight, was astonished to find myself running into people who didn't just immediately swerve out of my way. 

I know that if I'd have carried myself with shoulders squared, pleasant look on my face, and with an aura of confidence, many people would have reacted to *that*. But it doesn't take into account the bigots who would have treated me callously no matter how I carried myself. We're talking degrees of poor treatment, not an outright elimination.

I don't find this kind of speculation useful, because it is more of the same 'blame the victim' mentality. It doesn't matter how someone carries him/herself. It should never attract abuse, no matter what. Blame lies with the perpetrators.


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## superodalisque (May 23, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> Are you serious? Fat women aren't targets? Have you turned on the TV lately or picked up a celebrity magazine at all? The gossip pages don't single out celebrities for being shy. The magazines aren't supplying tips month after month on how to shed your unsightly shy appearance. Seriously, I'm glad that you feel the way you do because it shows that you exist in an area of life that is relatively free from these kinds of comments and you merely need to flash your pearly whites to dispell any unpleasant situation. Just don't use your experiences in life as a tool to invalidate the reality of others. What works for Queen Latifa would never work for Rosie O'Donnell and she is far from shy.



i get what your saying but the media is not the real world thank goodness. i think everyone's experience is valid. but, i also think to be practical we have to look at all views in order to change the negative experiences we have and take some power in that arena. 

yep, there are a lot of people trying to sell diet and beauty aides out there. i don't view people trying to sell stuff as abuse. making weird claims about how horrible people look the way they are is part of that game. respectfully, but the idea that people trying to sell stuff really has anything to do with real feelings or what real people think might be a kind of self abuse. i guess can say that because i once worked in that field and i know how things work behind the scenes. expecting that everyday people have the same ideas that the media does, or that the opinions they do have are set in stone could be a mistake that limits them and us.


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## superodalisque (May 23, 2008)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I can only go by my personal experiences and observations on this topic and it's a touchy one for me...
> 
> If by rarely fighting back and turning away from social settings because I didn't want to be hurt any more is "playing into the abuse" then maybe so. I was teased because of my weight (and for other reasons as well) by both boys and girls day after day from kindergarten until my senior year of high school. So, yes I hide myself away as best as I could. I was a child and I didn't know how to cope any differently. I thought that would be my life for the rest of my life. I don't feel that I played into the abuse but I didn't fight it either (not until I was older, anyway). I felt so beaten down that I didn't realize I _could_ fight back. I suppose allowed myself to be victimized in a way but I certainly didn't seek out the abuse. If anything I tried desperately to hide from it...which in hindsight is how _I _victimized _myself_.
> 
> That being said, abusers are abusers no matter who their victims are or what they do to help create an abusive stituation. The 40 year old teacher who has sex with a 14 year old is still an abuser even if she came on to him. The husband who beats his wife is still an abuser even though she stays with him. The mother who abuses her child is still an abuser even though the child keeps misbehaving. It could be said that the 14 year old seductress, the battered wife, and the misbehaving kid were "playing into" the abuse but it doesn't change the fact that they were in fact abused. It doesn't excuse the abusers. No matter how much responsibility people (fat or otherwise) take upon themselves for the things they have consciously or unconsciously done to foster abusive situations, it should NEVER justify the abuse. Never, ever.




i agree with you. i'd never justify abuse. but being able to avoid or not participate in abuse if one can figure out how to do that is important. i think its a great skill to develop if it can be. i mean, we can't just resolve to take it. we also can't just hope the world will change tomorrow to fit our own ideas of utopia because it won't. we could waste our entire lives waiting. and personally i don't want to spend all of my energy fighting people. i have better things to do with myself. so if there are easy skills i can learn i'd want to know what they were. and since abusers are always abusers and the world will probably never be void of them it would be good to know how to manage them. like when you were a girl. it would have been great if there were techniques people knew,especially when young and vulnerable, that could be used to at least reduce some of the tendencies people have to bully. thats why we teach children to say no to abuse by their teachers and strangers. we know that if they understand that its abuse and that they can tell someone and be protected it can be stopped. we also teach them to run! we need to give each other tools relative to our experiences too. it would make a great difference in our lives.

along that vein, i had a good friend at school. we were both the heaviest in high school. i was the biggest though. but she had a pity party going all of the time. you could see it in her as she walked down the hall. she had few friends. i had a lot of friends. we were both beautiful fat teenage girls. she used to talk all of the time about how embarrassed she was about her body, how sad it made her etc... i have to say that my school was pretty good when it came to bullying. we never got a lot of overt bullying like i've heard lots of people talk about. but there was still the usual knattering here and there. it was always aimed at her. i asked some girls why they said negative things about my friend all of the time. i could never figure it out because they didn't seem to have a problem with me. and she said because my friend wasn't any fun, and it must be because she was fat. my friend had literally said those words herself. she was always talking about what was wrong with her and what she couldn't do. how she was clumsey etc... she never talked about her talents or abilities. she was just a drag to be around even though she was really sweet. she always looked sad or angry, never smiled and never had anything funny or interesting to say. so you see in this case it really didn't have much to do with her being fat. it was more about who she was than what she looked like. 
i had a serious come to jesus talk with her and she did improve. she smiled more. she began to talk and be herself more--like she was around me. i knew she was great and i was glad everyone finally got to see it. she began to have more friends and felt better about herself. her entire definition was not about her being fat. once she changed her definition things began improving for her. she went from the girl who wasn't to the girl who was, and from the girl who couldn't to the girl who could. and the neat thing is that she felt empowered because she brought about the changes herself. 

as australian lord, said i do think a lot of people play the fat card because its easier than really dealing with what they really present to the world. and for people who don't know you your presentation is all they have to work with. even though there are some nuts who will always do and say negative things no matter what, there are a whole lot who respond to a positive presentation as well. and i'm not talking about clothes grooming etc... but about presenting the positive feelings you have about yourself. i think the tools to do that could really lighten people's load a bit.


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## tonynyc (May 23, 2008)

I see that most of the post have been from the experiences of BBW on the boards. It would be interesting to see what BHM have to say.

The sad part is that how does one deal with such behavior? Do you let it destroy you from the inside- are you able to shrug it off and say Fuck'em - At the end of the day- I am happy with myself and what I have going for me. 


And on another issue - we live in a crazy society - we have some folks that would easily shoot and kill someone if you look at them the wrong way- let alone respond to a nasty remark.


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## superodalisque (May 23, 2008)

tonynyc said:


> I see that most of the post have been from the experiences of BBW on the boards. It would be interesting to see what BHM have to say.
> 
> The sad part is that how does one deal with such behavior? Do you let it destroy you from the inside- are you able to shrug it off and say Fuck'em - At the end of the day- I am happy with myself and what I have going for me.
> 
> ...



there are ways to circumvent stuff from the getgo so that you don't even get the behavior or nasty remarks in the first place. it doesn't always work but it works enough that you don't always feel you have a big red circle on your back everytime you leave the house. its sort of like sales technique.


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## superodalisque (May 23, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> I know that I am treated far differently now than I was when I was heavier. I will acknowledge that I carried myself differently then, without even realizing how apologetic I felt for <gasp> being a fat woman. Given the constant subtle and overt cues that I got from others for daring to be fat in their presence, I can't imagine that I could have behaved much differently. I hadn't even realized the extent to which I was treated badly, because most of it wasn't in-your-face. Just ... constant, subtle reminders that I was less than human. Salespeople who wouldn't deign to serve me, despite my money being as green as theirs. Men who looked right through me as we crossed paths (God forbid, they ever nod pleasantly or open a door for me ... I might do something alarming, like smile back). Women who gave me the pitying "thank God I'm not _that_ fat" look. .




respectfully, i ask, how do you know how you would have been treated since you never really showed your confidence being fat? its an assumption that i find a lot of people make. how you feel makes a huge difference. i get even get treated differently when i'm standing side by side with another bbw. i think there is more to the expectations we have about how people will treat us than we think. i often use my benign princess act and people generally fall all over themselves to do things for me. its a big act that a friend taught me years ago and it really works.


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## tonynyc (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> there are ways to circumvent stuff from the getgo so that you don't even get the behavior or nasty remarks in the first place. it doesn't always work but it works enough that you don't always feel you have a big red circle on your back everytime you leave the house. its sort of like sales technique.



Confidence goes a long way- from the way you walk to your posture to eye contact. It's like putting yourself in the 'thick skin' mindset and becoming prepared to deal with difficult people outside the workplace.


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## Smushygirl (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> respectfully, i ask, how do you know how you would have been treated since you never really showed your confidence being fat? its an assumption that i find a lot of people make. how you feel makes a huge difference. i get even get treated differently when i'm standing side by side with another bbw. i think there is more to the expectations we have about how people will treat us than we think. i often use my benign princess act and people generally fall all over themselves to do things for me. its a big act that a friend taught me years ago and it really works.



LOL! I love you girl! But I think that is *your* own brand of special magic. I have seen it happen and been susceptible to it. You get a look on your face and I would do just about anything for you! Sadly for the rest of us...I don't think it happens! If I could bottle it and drink it in, I would, Lovey!


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 23, 2008)

I forgot to add I was wearing my : *"PLEASE spit on me!" *- T-shirt at the time.

What was I thinking?????





LillyBBBW said:


> No, it was meant for you Sandie alright. It was all your fault though for not being a sparkley sunny peppy Breck girl with bouncin' and bahavin' hair and a killer outfit that shows off your curvaceous legs. Shame on you for blowing your overbloated experiences out of proportion and being a niusance for the rest of us. Fat card tosser you.


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## ripley (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> personally i don't want to spend all of my energy fighting people. i have better things to do with myself. so if there are easy skills i can learn i'd want to know what they were. and since abusers are always abusers and the world will probably never be void of them it would be good to know how to manage them. like when you were a girl. it would have been great if there were techniques people knew,especially when young and vulnerable, that could be used to at least reduce some of the tendencies people have to bully. thats why we teach children to say no to abuse by their teachers and strangers. we know that if they understand that its abuse and that they can tell someone and be protected it can be stopped. we also teach them to run! we need to give each other tools relative to our experiences too. it would make a great difference in our lives.
> 
> 
> as australian lord, said i do think a lot of people play the fat card because its easier than really dealing with what they really present to the world. and for people who don't know you your presentation is all they have to work with. even though there are some nuts who will always do and say negative things no matter what, there are a whole lot who respond to a positive presentation as well. and i'm not talking about clothes grooming etc... but about presenting the positive feelings you have about yourself. i think the tools to do that could really lighten people's load a bit.



The more I read the more this thread bothers me. First of all, what are these "easy skills" and tools that I'm supposed to learn to make fat-phobic or fat-abusive people forget that I'm fat? Am I supposed to change my reticent nature and wear a fake cloak of sunshine so that only the abusers that are really nasty and intent will still insult me?

As for playing the "fat card"...the only time I assume comments are because I am fat are when they are fat-specific. If someone called me dumb or gauche or anything else I don't blame it on being fat.



superodalisque said:


> there are ways to circumvent stuff from the getgo so that you don't even get the behavior or nasty remarks in the first place. it doesn't always work but it works enough that you don't always feel you have a big red circle on your back everytime you leave the house. its sort of like sales technique.



I refuse to "sell" myself to abusers on the off chance that it will stop them from abusing me. I'd rather dish it right back than pander.




superodalisque said:


> respectfully, i ask, how do you know how you would have been treated since you never really showed your confidence being fat? its an assumption that i find a lot of people make. how you feel makes a huge difference. i get even get treated differently when i'm standing side by side with another bbw. i think there is more to the expectations we have about how people will treat us than we think. i often use my benign princess act and people generally fall all over themselves to do things for me. its a big act that a friend taught me years ago and it really works.



I take it you've never gotten the "Who the hell does that fat bitch think she is?" sort of comment. I'm glad that what you do is working for you...but it is not right for everyone. 

The "expectations we have about how people will treat us" might have some validity, but I can tell you that I expect people to treat me with respect and politeness...and I still suffer the occasional fat-hating comment. NOTHING is going to stop people from being mean to fat people if they want to be. Or short people. Or people of color. Or people who wear turbans. No matter how well groomed, how "regal"...someone is always going to hate.



Like I said earlier, it's a chicken or the egg sort of situation...which comes first, the abuse or the fear of abuse? I think we have the right to be shy. I think we have the right to not have to always be the confident fat ambassador. I deserve respect and civilized behavior because I am a human being. I refuse to pander to abusers in the hope that they will pass me by and choose the shy fat girl behind me.


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## TraciJo67 (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> respectfully, i ask, how do you know how you would have been treated since you never really showed your confidence being fat? its an assumption that i find a lot of people make. how you feel makes a huge difference. i get even get treated differently when i'm standing side by side with another bbw. i think there is more to the expectations we have about how people will treat us than we think. i often use my benign princess act and people generally fall all over themselves to do things for me. its a big act that a friend taught me years ago and it really works.



It's a good question, and one that I've thought about. First of all, though ... no matter how I acted, it didn't give anyone the right to verbally abuse me or treat me as if I were a disease that they might catch. 

One area in which I've always been fairly confident & assertive is in my chosen profession. I see no difference in how I behave now, as an average-sized woman, versus how I behaved as a fat woman. But there are worlds of difference in how my colleagues, clients, and managers treat me. When I speak up in meetings, I'm listened to, and feedback is offered. When I apply for transfers, promotions, or committee memberships, I'm seldom denied the opportunity. Seems that when I lost the weight, I gained a lot of intelligence  

One other thing -- I may have been miserable in my own skin, but I don't think that I wore my heart on my sleeve, nor did I always show vulnerability. Most of my self-protective behaviors were unconscious (walking with stooped shoulders, hunched inward, classic defensive posturing). It's not as if I invited abuse. Nor am I saying that I was always treated badly. What I *am* saying is that there is a world of difference in how I am treated now.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 23, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> *Snipped* like when you were a girl. it would have been great if there were techniques people knew,especially when young and vulnerable, that could be used to at least reduce some of the tendencies people have to bully. thats why we teach children to say no to abuse by their teachers and strangers. we know that if they understand that its abuse and that they can tell someone and be protected it can be stopped. we also teach them to run! we need to give each other tools relative to our experiences too. it would make a great difference in our lives.



Felecia, I'm sorry but I didn't finish reading your full post yet. I will. I felt a strong need to respond to this statement. I get what you are saying but I have to disagree...

Yes, children are given "tools" by adults to ward off bullies and abusers. They don't always work. I was told "Ignore it", "Fight back", "Don't go there." And I took those tools and words of advise to heart. I utilized them often to my own detriment. Things would become worse the more I "ignored it" or "fought back" or "didn't go there". So what is someone to do when all their efforts to stem the abuse fails them??? I'll tell you what should should be done...stop the abusers. Lets hold those who are at fault accountable for a change and stop making it the job of the abused to fend hopelessly for themselves all the time. 

Yes, I agree that human beings should be taught to function in society and often that means defending one's self against bullies. That should never prevent those in a position of power (adults, law enforcers, or even just a neighbor) from protecting a victim from abuse. Because the tools I was given didn't work for me doesn't mean I am at fault. The abusers are at fault. As I said before, nothing justifies their actions. What tools can you use to prevent someone for spitting on you as you walk down the street? Never leaving your house? Ignoring it so that the next person feels it's ok to do the same? I'm sorry but no. Fight back, yes...but the individual shouldn't be the only one fighting back. It should be us, as a society fighting against all forms of abuse.

Tools for self preservation, survival, and avoidance are key, I agree. However, while "tools" will help you build something up...they will not prevent others from trying to tear down it down. Not until we as a society stop the abusers who seek to make our tools useless.


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## revolutionman (May 23, 2008)

I've never felt like I have been slighted or belittled because I was fat. i get looks and people make comments some times, but thats their personal issue thats got none to do with me. I don't take people ignorance personal. Kinda like blaming your dog for going inside. As a far man who is generally comfortable with himself, I have two options that have generally the same outcome. 

1. I can play jovial fat man and laugh it off. People don't get the reaction they expect, they leave it alone.

2. I can play the 300lb monster that will fking rip you a part and perhaps snack on bits of you if you cross cross me again. 

either way people leave me alone.

I usually embrace the more diplomatic option, because a lot of times people say things without even realizing how offensive they sound. I like number two for drunk guys and assorted jerks at the bars and clubs. I'm not a sensitive fat man, your not gonna hurt my feelings, but if you try to embarass me, I'm gonna make you look like a vag in front of all your lil friends.


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## Paul (May 23, 2008)

I believe we can draw abuse upon ourselves. I once met a feminist who believed that most men hate women and want to keep them in their "place". Anything any of the men said contributed to the seminar we were taking was discounted by this woman, simply based on the fact that she believed that all men hate women and will treat them badly. So any opinion or point offered by a man was of little value and was dismissed by her as worthless. Here extreme feminist viewpoint made her and open target for abuse by men. Men who were not chauvinists against women would react negatively to her attitude that "men are scum, hate women, treat them badly, etc." Most of the abuse she received from men she brought on by her treatment men and only confirmed in her mind that "men hat women".

Our attitudes can effect how people see us and their interactions with us. Lets use the example of a fat person shopping in a store. the fat person approaches a counter with a very busy clerk having to serve many customers, by themselves without help from any other store staff. As the fat person waits to be served, they become angry with the clerk as she serves a second and third customer before her. [There was no cue line at the counter to indicate whose turn was next.] An angry feeling wells up in the fat person believing the clerk is ignoring them since they are fat. By the time the clerk begins to serve the fat person, the fat person is so angry (as they believe the clerk is ignoring them because they are fat) that the clerk reactsa to the fat person's angry look and demeanor. The fat person believes the clerk's reaction is discrimination. The reality is that the clerk treated all the customers in a fair manner with no discrimination. The clerk was simply reacting to the fat person's anger.

Yes we can draw abuse. The fat person though the clerk was ignoring serving her because they were fat. The anger the fat person projected when the clerk did serve them affected the clerk's response to the fat customer...not discrimination as the fat person felt it was, but a reaction to a less than happy customer. Our attitudes and beliefs can affect how other see us and how they will interact with us. Maybe the more we believe all fat people are discriminated against, all the time, the more we will be (or feel we are being) discriminated against. 

If we present ourselves as confident, ready to conquerer the world the world will react to us in one way. If we view ourselves as victims, always being discriminated against, the world will react to us in another way.

This is not to say that discrimination doesn't occur when we have done nothing to "draw this abuse". But I feel there are some people who are more likely to "draw abuse" than others. Is "drawing abuse" solved by reorienting ourselves to no longer feel or see that the world is out abuse and discriminate against fat people? Maybe, maybe not. I am not sure.

Sorry my thinking is not a clear as it could be...for some reason tonight I am a little fuzzy brained.


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## tonynyc (May 24, 2008)

revolutionman said:


> 1. I can play jovial fat man and laugh it off. People don't get the reaction they expect, they leave it alone.
> 
> 2. I can play the 300lb monster that will fking rip you a part and perhaps snack on bits of you if you cross cross me again.
> 
> either way people leave me alone.



The risk as to which "response" the abuser may have to deal with may stop some assholes in their place. 




NancyGirl74 said:


> Tools for self preservation, survival, and avoidance are key, I agree. However, while "tools" will help you build something up...they will not prevent others from trying to tear down it down. Not until we as a society stop the abusers who seek to make our tools useless.



Tools for self preservation is key. What skills must be developed to deal with abusers and assessing verbal vs. physical threats. Is it learning verbal techniques, avoidance and as a last resort defending yourself physically? 

Here are some great ideas and thoughts from other dimmers when I posted a thread about Verbal Judo or Verbal Karate in the Health Forum.

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39187


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## Brenda (May 24, 2008)

I was taunted in school and even physically attacked due to my weight. From kindergarten to graduation I was tormented, socially rejected and made to feel horrible about my body and who I was. As a young adult I would occasionally get a called out for being fat by car full of teenagers or a drunk frat boy in a bar. As a fat adult I have not had a stranger make a negative comment about my body in years. I have even been in arguments at the post office and in front of the airport with strangers and they did not even go to the obvious fat insult.

While I in no way think I was responsible for the abuse I received as a young person I do think I am not abused now because of a change in my outlook. I am not intentionally avoiding abuse now but it rarely appears even though I am significantly heavier now. The difference I can see in myself I no longer am looking for a negative comment and I no longer care very much of what strangers think of me. Or maybe I have a cloak of invisibility around morons.

Brenda


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## moore2me (May 24, 2008)

I'll never forget a piece of advice I read in a magazine several years ago that has nothing to do with being fat. If you want to have a seat on a bus all to yourself, take a long string of twine and let it hang out of the side of your mouth. You don't have to say anything, or do anything else. People just see the string hanging loose out of your mouth and think you are a weirdo & don't want to sit next to you.

It is most people's nature to avoid someone who they think will cause them trouble. And this goes back to my thought about being a hard target and not easy prey. Acting crazy, acting mean or vicious, acting unpredictable, being physically intinmidating, or acting a clown, are all ways IMHO of being a hard target and not drawing abuse. (Added note: Some of us don't have to act crazy or vicious, some of us are crazy and vicious.)


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## revolutionman (May 24, 2008)

there is always gonna be jerks in life, but people will only sht on you as long as you allow them to. What people who are abusive toward fat people lack more than anything is perspective. So you be the one to remind them that they are fking with a larger and inherently more dangerous creature. Size intimidates, there are species of animals that stake their lives on that fact. Society has generally made us meak and timid, quiet and nonconfrontational, and that emboldens abusers. Primal fear will trump logic, rationality or social conditioning 99% of the time. Stand straight up, nice and tall, tense your shoulders, and with a most menacing look, shout some thing like "What the fk did you just say!?" toss in a forward motion and some agressive hand gestures, and you will turn that abuser into a baboob hiding in a tree from a charging rhino.


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## 1300 Class (May 24, 2008)

The best response to "bullying" or someone "giving you shit" is to give it as good as you get right back to them. The whole Ghandi mentality in this case of "self restraint" is a load of rubbish, standing up and giving it back to them full bore is the best solution to the issue. 

Thats just what I can say from personal experiences.


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## superodalisque (May 24, 2008)

the biggest lesson i learned as an adult about the power i had about how people reacted to me was when i was an adm for small business at a large phone company. that job really helped me to develop and test a lot of strategies in dealing with people. no one can see that you are fat. i simply had to convince people to do what was needed with my voice. since it was a very boring job i made it into a game to entertain myself-- sort of like target shooting. anyway it was great practice in honing my skills at relating to people. 

the first thing i learned was to never lose focus on the goal. get them to do what you need them to do and don't focus on the periphery that doesn't count. if you need to buy something ask about the product the sale etc... don't bring personalities into what you are doing. don't look for their approval, make them work for yours. if you feel your waiting too long for service, let them know. you don't have to be an ass to do it. ask if there is another cashier who can help etc... tell them your in a hurry. if they still give you trouble ask them to call a manager and have them cash you out and tell them in a professional way that the service is too slow. if you still have problems fire off a letter to the VP operations of any company you come into contact with and people always get moving. don't waste time upsetting yourself and wondering why you didn't get the service you wanted or deserved. its really a non issue. just take pride in feeling powerful and getting what you want by hook or by crook.

another is you have to care about other people and show it. even if its an act at first, people respond. they really want you to SEE them. if we are shy as an adult it can see it as kind of a self indulgent act. its not always about us and we should have learned that as an adult. so if we allow ourselves to be shy we might be focusing on ourselves a bit too much. i'm shy at times too so i get it. i'm still trying to force myself through it so that i'm a better person. when i forget and become self indulgent and totally eclipse other people's feelings with my own its always a mistake.

i take this stuff out into the regular world and people respond no differently in person than they did when i was on the phone. and when you really get it you truly care about people it can take you out of yourself and out of the fat bubble. people begin telling you whats driving them and you realize its not you or your fat. there have been plenty of occassions when people have wanted to be cruel to me because they were having a hard time in life in general. but when i approach with caring for other human beings they find it really diffcult to do so. for example to a grumpy clerk: "hey how are you doing? are you having a long day today too?" 

it might be said that this is hard work. yes it is. someone might not feel like doing it. but life is hard work and worth the effort. why should you care? maybe because you are a human being and you want someone to care how you feel one day too. you want someone to make the effort to see you as a person as well, not just as a mound of fat. you have to see them as more than a potential abuser. people do pass caring on. they aren't all mean out of control people, just folks like us who might lapse momentarily under stress. i mean, we've all said and done stuff that we regret. we'd want some tolerance for that and it wouldn't hurt us either to learn how to give a little tolerance too.

i also think people tend to get overly sensitive if they spend too mch time alone focusing on their own problems. maybe some volenteer work with people who are seriously abused would bring some things back into focus. sometimes if we are too close to things we need something to bring our lives back into the proper perspective. i can tell you, when i saw children who were been burned and hit, women who were been beaten within an inch of their lives on nearly a daily basis a snide remark or funky look from a stranger meant absolutely nothing to me.

i remember a long time ago i was watching a tacky but true episode of designing women. one of the characters was complaining about being and feeling fat, then she met a boy from a famine struck african country. yes very melodramatic but true when she said something about the contrast of complaining about having too much to eat. sometimes we are even lucky to have the "problems" we do have. all of which are solveable and controllable to a point, nothing like the rains in a drought suffering country.

Personal Motto: If you don't like it DO SOMETHING


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 24, 2008)

You know what? I REALLY resent your superior attitude. I'm no shrinking violet not am I afraid to confront people BUT your attitude of "If people treat you like crap it's your fault" is really...........um...............what's the word, hmmmmm................condiscending and repulsive. 

In a place where size acceptance is the number one point of being here - your attitude lumps you right in with the people who verbally and physically abuse fat people. You are a fat bigot. Congratulations.




superodalisque said:


> the biggest lesson i learned as an adult about the power i had about how people reacted to me was when i was an adm for small business at a large phone company. that job really helped me to develop and test a lot of strategies in dealing with people. no one can see that you are fat. i simply had to convince people to do what was needed with my voice. since it was a very boring job i made it into a game to entertain myself-- sort of like target shooting. anyway it was great practice in honing my skills at relating to people.
> 
> the first thing i learned was to never lose focus on the goal. get them to do what you need them to do and don't focus on the periphery that doesn't count. if you need to buy something ask about the product the sale etc... don't bring personalities into what you are doing. don't look for their approval, make them work for yours. if you feel your waiting too long for service, let them know. you don't have to be an ass to do it. ask if there is another cashier who can help etc... tell them your in a hurry. if they still give you trouble ask them to call a manager and have them cash you out and tell them in a professional way that the service is too slow. if you still have problems fire off a letter to the VP operations of any company you come into contact with and people always get moving. don't waste time upsetting yourself and wondering why you didn't get the service you wanted or deserved. its really a non issue. just take pride in feeling powerful and getting what you want by hook or by crook.
> 
> ...


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 24, 2008)

Sandie, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think Superodalisque is right on the money. People are always watching for a reaction that will tell them how to respond, and they tend to live up or down to ones expectations. I've experimented with some of my college classes by responding in different ways: if I seem to have a mediocre class, I need to be especially enthusiastic and complimentary; if I tell them they turned in really great papers (and read the one good paper I got as if it were typical), each succeeding round of papers will get better. I think that's all Superodalisque is saying, really: if you have the empathy to see what the other person's attitude is and where they're coming from, you can play your part in a way that lets them cooperate with you instead of confronting you, and lets them feel good about it. And I think it's the best advice I've read on dims yet.


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## witchysbbw (May 24, 2008)

Unfortunately many ignorant people are insulting to bbw for no other reason than meanness. I have been a fat girl since I was about 5 yo. I have been various sizes. I was taught to be proud of my appearance and always took extra care to look nice. I was shy with strangers but always pleasant. I was outgoing with my friends. Despite this I have had nasty remarks about my size hurled at me on the street, at the mall, at school and even work. Sometimes I ignored them but other times I stood up for myself. Either way they still hurt. Being fat is the only condition that society considers an acceptable target. I do not blame my size for all my problems, but others do and that really upsets me. 
Many of my fat sisters are easy targets for abusive relationships. We are sometimes led to believe that we must put up with unacceptable behavior. I always considered myself strong and informed and yet I fell into that trap. We need to tell our children, especially girls, that they are beautiful at any size, smart and deserving of the best.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 24, 2008)

Are you fat?

Do you know what it's like to be Supersized in this country??

What you _think_ is right, doesn't mean diddly in comaparison to what I _know_ is right. What you and others are saying is uncontionable in _this _place.

I'm 47 years old. I've been fat all my life. I know how to handle people. I sold cosmetics for 13 years - I was very successful. I went into peoples homes almost everyday of those 13 years and had to deal with the looks and the attitudes everyday. I was good at it, I still am. I can handle the rudest person with a smile and a laugh. I can make anyone like me. (really- if I want to). 

You know what I discovered after all those years working with other women who I thought loved me? They_ ALL _talked about my weight behind my back. ALL of them. It was all a joke and a lie. I felt like a fool. 

Moral of the story? You can handle and control any situation - but they will still call you a fat bitch behind your back.





Dr. Feelgood said:


> Sandie, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think Superodalisque is right on the money. People are always watching for a reaction that will tell them how to respond, and they tend to live up or down to ones expectations. I've experimented with some of my college classes by responding in different ways: if I seem to have a mediocre class, I need to be especially enthusiastic and complimentary; if I tell them they turned in really great papers (and read the one good paper I got as if it were typical), each succeeding round of papers will get better. I think that's all Superodalisque is saying, really: if you have the empathy to see what the other person's attitude is and where they're coming from, you can play your part in a way that lets them cooperate with you instead of confronting you, and lets them feel good about it. And I think it's the best advice I've read on dims yet.


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## Zandoz (May 24, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> the biggest lesson i learned as an adult about the power i had about how people reacted to me was when i was an adm for small business at a large phone company. that job really helped me to develop and test a lot of strategies in dealing with people. no one can see that you are fat.



This brought back memories of a situation in my life that demonstrated the exact opposite. Part of my job for over 18 years was being the IT contact for a sister company owned by our parent company...we did their IT work so that they could concentrate on their core business. For 13 years, I spent several hours a day, all by phone, dealing with my contact on their end...the woman who was the executive assistant to their vice president. We became great friends...at times talking for hours after then end of the work day. We came to know each others families and friends, talked each other through low times and shared good times. Though we had never met face to face, I considered her one of my best friends, and she explicitly stated she felt the same. Then after 13 years, she got to make the trip to our offices with her boss. I heard her enthusiastically telling her and my boss that she could not wait to meet me. When my boss introduced her to me, the shocked "deer in headlights" look on her face was unmistakable. I got a nervous "Hello" and a handshake...then silence. For the next 2 days that she was there, it was obvious she was going out of her way to be nowhere near me. For the remaining 5 years we worked together, all contact was strictly business. Any attempt to engage in any kind of friendly interaction was immediately cut short.

What happened? I was fat.


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## Sugar (May 24, 2008)

Zandoz said:


> This brought back memories of a situation in my life that demonstrated the exact opposite. Part of my job for over 18 years was being the IT contact for a sister company owned by our parent company...we did their IT work so that they could concentrate on their core business. For 13 years, I spent several hours a day, all by phone, dealing with my contact on their end...the woman who was the executive assistant to their vice president. We became great friends...at times talking for hours after then end of the work day. We came to know each others families and friends, talked each other through low times and shared good times. Though we had never met face to face, I considered her one of my best friends, and she explicitly stated she felt the same. Then after 13 years, she got to make the trip to our offices with her boss. I heard her enthusiastically telling her and my boss that she could not wait to meet me. When my boss introduced her to me, the shocked "deer in headlights" look on her face was unmistakable. I got a nervous "Hello" and a handshake...then silence. For the next 2 days that she was there, it was obvious she was going out of her way to be nowhere near me. For the remaining 5 years we worked together, all contact was strictly business. Any attempt to engage in any kind of friendly interaction was immediately cut short.
> 
> What happened? I was fat.



That breaks my heart on so many levels. I'm sorry.


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## tonynyc (May 24, 2008)

The way we react to the disrespect/abuse really depends on the cirsumstances. How we would react in a work situation can really differ from other scenarios.

Sandie: that really sucks to have 'so-called' friends act that way- in they seem more like acquaintances than true friends. You are lucky to have at least 'One Friend' in life- but you can many acquaintences.

Felecia: I can see your point when it comes to getting a positive reaction from strangers and how it can work in some circumstances (maybe) you need to bottle some of that special magic you possess. 


I don't know if I would care to have an empathy for some insulting asshole. 

If some stranger is going to yell..
" Hey you f- mf or
"F B_ (insert your own gender based curse word here)....

There is nothing to understand - short of diffusing the situation (you pray that you have the wits about you to do this- cause if you have a bad day or in the mindset of 'enough of this shit' than all hell breaks lose) and if all else fails taking the course of action you feel comfy with. 

In addition, to insulting assholes - you also have to take the time to "train" the public on proper treatment. One of my biggest pet peeves with restaurant staff . There is no way in hell that I or my SSBBW date would be comfy in a booth... So, I have to remind the person on the spot "I would like table please".


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 24, 2008)

No one can make you feel anything you dont already consciously or latently feel. Youre wholly responsible for every emotion -> reaction in your repertoire unless, of course, youve been possessed. Thats fairly rare. 

Carrying yourself with confidence may not entirely change how some people treat you because bullies feed off others insecurities to cushion their own. It will, however, change how and/or if you respond to said bullying. This is key. When youve actively cultivated and fostered an inner core of knowing the sum of each of your own parts and your own self-worth, youll realize its water off a ducks back. 

I notice a lot of people worrying so much about what others think of them and what this will look like and how someone will perceive this or that. Sure, its necessary to do sometimes, but Im damned sure it causes a lot of anxiety that leads to shyness, too. It takes a ferocious amount of energy trying to forecast what you think others will think if you say a certain thing or act some particular way, and its about as effective as projection. Youre not going to know what someone else is really thinking or why probably ever and, you know, its likely better that way. You ought to ask yourself after a while if you really give a fuck. Its you living your life, not them. 

Like Felecia and others are saying, spend more time concentrating on the positive traits you harbor and it will positively affect your interactions with everyone, not just bullies. 

Know thyself and all always good advice.


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## moore2me (May 24, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Are you fat?
> 
> Do you know what it's like to be Supersized in this country??
> 
> ...



*Correlation to your moral - One hundred years from now, it won't matter what they called me. It is not important. I do not give them any power over how I feel about myself. *



Zandoz said:


> This brought back memories of a situation in my life that demonstrated the exact opposite. Part of my job for over 18 years was being the IT contact for a sister company owned by our parent company...we did their IT work so that they could concentrate on their core business. For 13 years, I spent several hours a day, all by phone, dealing with my contact on their end...the woman who was the executive assistant to their vice president. We became great friends...at times talking for hours after then end of the work day. We came to know each others families and friends, talked each other through low times and shared good times. Though we had never met face to face, I considered her one of my best friends, and she explicitly stated she felt the same. Then after 13 years, she got to make the trip to our offices with her boss. I heard her enthusiastically telling her and my boss that she could not wait to meet me. When my boss introduced her to me, the shocked "deer in headlights" look on her face was unmistakable. I got a nervous "Hello" and a handshake...then silence. For the next 2 days that she was there, it was obvious she was going out of her way to be nowhere near me. For the remaining 5 years we worked together, all contact was strictly business. Any attempt to engage in any kind of friendly interaction was immediately cut short.
> 
> What happened? I was fat.



*Guess what. She wasn't the quality of friend that is important if something as trivial what you looked like "cooled her jets". Shallow people do not make quality friends.*


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## ripley (May 24, 2008)

I don't see being shy as a self-indulgent act. Is it any more self-indulgent than the person who manipulates people into "falling all over themselves to do things for [them]" or gets what they want "by hook or by crook"?


Also, I find those people who "work the room" often to be insincere and off-putting. I'd rather be my reticent, genuine self. Being shy is NOT inherently worse than being outgoing. It's not inherently better to be the belle of the ball. It's just...different.


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## Donna (May 24, 2008)

ripley said:


> I don't see being shy as a self-indulgent act. Is it any more self-indulgent than the person who manipulates people into "falling all over themselves to do things for [them]" or gets what they want "by hook or by crook"?
> 
> 
> Also, I find those people who "work the room" often to be insincere and off-putting. I'd rather be my reticent, genuine self. Being shy is NOT inherently worse than being outgoing. It's not inherently better to be the belle of the ball. It's just...different.



Well said! 

And for what it's worth, one can be confident and dynamic and still draw bullies and abusers. In fact, I think sometimes a confident demeanor and attitude can almost come off like a challenge to some people. Trust me, I have been both strong and confident in the face of society as well as meek and retiring. I have found that when I present as confident and feel confident, it flies in the face of what some people expect. That upsets them, makes them feel unnerved. So they go for the jugular...the one insult they know will hurt the most.

Both sides here have valid points, though. However it seems like those who are trying to negate the feelings of victimization some from the other side of the debate have expressed are doing a disservice to their fellow Dimmers. The attitude that says, "if you only comport yourself the way I do, you won't face stigmatization and harassment from the general public" is IMHO insulting, dismissive and, as Sandie Z said earlier in the thread, condescending. By inadvertently (I don't believe anyone is intentionally being dismissive or condescending--but I am sometimes naive that way) giving the posters who have expressed their feelings of victimization the impression they are somehow to blame for the abuse they have endured, old wounds are being reopened and people are being hurt. 

Not sure where I was going...I am tired and apparently rambling.

ETA: someone please rep Nancygirl, Lilly and Ripley for me, and grab Sharleen too while you're at it. I've given too much rep, blah, blah, blah


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 24, 2008)

Donnaalicious said:


> The attitude that says, "if you only comport yourself the way I do, you won't face stigmatization and harassment from the general public" is IMHO insulting, dismissive and, as Sandie Z said earlier in the thread, condescending. By inadvertently (I don't believe anyone is intentionally being dismissive or condescending--but I am sometimes naive that way) giving the posters who have expressed their feelings of victimization the impression they are somehow to blame for the abuse they have endured, old wounds are being reopened and people are being hurt.



I certainly hope my post didn't come across as dismissive; if it did, I apologize to anyone who was offended. I do think Superodalisque made a good point: people tend to be reactive, and by being _proactive_ you can often head off possible problems. This is certainly not to say that you will not face harassment and stigmatization: the world is chock-full of sick puppies who are suffering from their own low self-esteem, and if they're hurting enough they'll lash out at any potential target. Nothing is going to change that; nothing ever has; but if any degree of damage control is possible, why not use it?


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## TraciJo67 (May 24, 2008)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I certainly hope my post didn't come across as dismissive; if it did, I apologize to anyone who was offended. I do think Superodalisque made a good point: people tend to be reactive, and by being _proactive_ you can often head off possible problems. This is certainly not to say that you will not face harassment and stigmatization: the world is chock-full of sick puppies who are suffering from their own low self-esteem, and if they're hurting enough they'll lash out at any potential target. Nothing is going to change that; nothing ever has; but if any degree of damage control is possible, why not use it?



She's speaking as if most people don't already know this. That's my issue with her opinion. I was vaguely insulted by it myself.

I know the difference between a harried salesperson and a snotty young woman who is blatantly ignoring me, her body language hovering on the edge of (but not quite teetering over into) outright rudeness. And I know how to handle someone like that, although my usual tactic was to save myself the unpleasantness and simply walk out the door, taking my money elsewhere. If the behavior was particularly nasty, then yeah, I said something to the store manager. The point, though: I'd rather not waste my time, or breath, being confrontational with a snotty salesperson. That isn't about my level of self-confidence. It is more about choosing my battles, and preserving my energy for those I think I can actually win.

I think that most people know how to assert themselves. The ladies who've posted to this very thread don't strike me as shrinking wallflowers. I don't like the 'blame the victim' mentality -- as if any abuse we've faced from hostile asshats has anything at all to do with us. That isn't to say that I disagree with the intent of what she's posted (or yours, for that matter). I just think that it's preaching to the choir. We're all reasonably intelligent adults here. We know our realities.


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## KuroBara (May 25, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> Yes but like someone mentioned a while ago in another thread, why must I continually high kick like Jimmy Jam through the streets to keep people from hurling shit comments at me? Can't a shy fat woman walk down the street without being a target? Why aren't other shy people targets? I think we're missing the big picture here. If I don't wanna smile or I don't wanna scowl I dont' think that should be an open invitation for anybody with a pulse to say shit to me or hurl out abuse. So by being myself that means there's a sign on my forhead inviting all the good decent people in the world, " Go ahead and abuse me please! Indulge yours self righteous affirmations, I deserve it." ? It's not a good sell.


 

This reminds me why I adore you Lily, as if I need any reason. I was, and at times still am shy and don't always make contact, but that does not make me open fodder for ignorant boobs, teenage or otherwise. And no, I don't think just being fat invites abuse, but I will admit I can expect the worse in certain situatins. However, I expect the worse because of past experiences where the worse has happened. I know you are suppossed to go into each situation like it is brand new, but that's just not reality. How many times do you put your hand in the fire before you realize this is not going to work out?


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## Friday (May 25, 2008)

I too am insulted by the idea that we somehow bring the insults upon ourselves and just need to learn to kiss more ass to get along. I am not a shrinking violet as anyone who has met me can attest. I am not insecure about my looks or my intelligence nor do I carry myself in a way that would lead anyone with three live brain cells to think I might be submissive.

Yet I have been insulted by total strangers, strangers that I have never seen before and will never see again, strangers at the store going for a laugh out of their companions, even strangers that lashed out when I politely turned down their offer to buy me a drink. How in the hell would I 'work on' my interaction with these assholes and why the fuck would I want to in the first place? This roll over and present ass shit solves nothing and merely reinforces the abusers idea that they can get something (whether it's a rise or brown nosing) amusing or pleasing to them by abusing people.

The only time in my life I was ever rendered totally speechless by shock was when an asshole who was trying to pick me up asked me to point my husband out (I was sitting at the bar, he was playing darts) when I thanked him for his offer of a drink but declined because my husband buys my drinks. I thought it strange but pointed D out. The man's response? 'No way, guys that look like him don't marry women like you.'. I was so stunned my jaw dropped, after several seconds I called out my husband's name. He's wanted to kick ass after incidents before but I've always told him 'I took care of myself for 35 years and I can take care of myself now.'. This time, I was going to let him beat the crap out of the asshole. Before I could get D's attention however, the bartender (he had heard the whole thing) leaned over and told the guy 'I think you just made the biggest mistake in your life. I'd suggest you not wait until she tells him what you said.', and the guy was out of there like a shot.

In no way did I bring this on myself and in no way could modifying my response have changed what he said because if you think I'm ever going to feel obligated to let some putz buy me a drink so he won't sling a fat slam at me you're wrong. Nor will I apologize for throwing a beer in the face of the total stranger who looked at me one night years before I met my husband and said 'The sign says Happy Hour, not Hippo Hour.'. If you think fluttering your eyelashes at these idiots is the solution then I think you're part of the problem.


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## Shosh (May 25, 2008)

You know what, I was abused for so many years about my weight. These people can just Fuck off. Plain and simple.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 25, 2008)

Wow...I had this long response typed to this thread and hit the wrong key and lost the whole damn thing :doh:
Second attempt...I hope I can recapture what I originally said.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about all of this....and can agree with many posts...on both sides.

First, please let me tell you what kind of person I am posting as, for those that don't know:
1. I am a fat woman.
2. I have an eating disorder- my weight has yo-yo'ed up and down over the years with weight differences as much as 80 lbs. I was somewhat "thin" as a size 14 and have worn as big as a size 26- and I have seen a difference in how SOME people treat me.
3. I was a thin child...smaller than most. This got me picked on....not being fat but being "too small". Also, I was poor, didn't have the right clothes, had a mentally ill mother that did weird things- she also hitch-hiked to work and some people knew it, had my own brand of humor/outlooks (and I proudly say I am still "myself" when it comes to my outlooks and humor- I feel it is an important accomplishment in lieu of things that have happened) that others don't always appreciate, was raised primarily by an older sibling. I was picked on for being "different" more than anything else........
Part of me thinks that "different" scares the hell out of some people. This speaks more poorly for them than for myself, IMO.
4. I was abused at home- mostly because I was there. Not because of my weight or how I looked. 
5. I spent many years feeling like I was "marked' or "branded". As in, I felt like a favorite target for abuse. It's easy to feel this way when you have had it happen so often. It feels like you're forced to wear the "scarlet letter"...and always comes with the same question running through your mind...."Why do people treat me this way....unless what they are saying about me is true?"
Holy fuck...hard question to answer.... and overcome. But it's not a GOOD question...and not a necessary one to ask yourself. My life became better when I wanted it to become better. It's something I have to work on each and every day of my life....but I'm worth it 
6. I allowed myself to be treated badly by others....nothing in my life changed or became better until....I learned to like/love myself enough to want something different/better. Did I ask for all the abuse? Certainly not...
Were my abusers justified in what they did to me? Hell no.....
It's just that now....I realize that abusers are really fucked up people. They hate themselves inside as much I used to hate myself....they just found a different outlet for it. I turned my self hating into myself...they turn theirs onto others.
Do I have a lot of compassion for them? No...I just feel stronger in this knowledge about them. 




Genarose54 said:


> As well as the usual suspects, I think a lot of it is fear on the part of the "abuser"; the recent "canklegate" being an example of that. As much as those two women love fat in men, they have an extreme fear of being fat themselves, and those fears were hatefully projected onto others as a way to distance themselves from a potential reality of being super-sized one day.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's a basic human response to find some way to blame the victim no matter what kind of malady or injury or condition befalls them in order to maintain a cock-eyed sense of security that THAT could never happen to me because I would NEVER do or be such-and-such. Of course, just because it might be a basic human response, doesn't justify it or make it right. We all need to think outside our base selves and our base fears and realize everybody has some cross to bear (or will have some day), and a little bit of empathy goes a long way.
> 
> ...



Spot on- the lady said it first 



Fascinita said:


> In any case, abuse is abuse, right? For instance, if someone calls me a derogatory name related to my ethnicity, would it be possible to ask a question parallel to yours in that case? Something along the lines of, "Are people hurling ethnic insults at me because they are bigots, or is it my expectation that draws those insults?"
> 
> I just don't see it.






NancyGirl74 said:


> I can only go by my personal experiences and observations on this topic and it's a touchy one for me...
> 
> If by rarely fighting back and turning away from social settings because I didn't want to be hurt any more is "playing into the abuse" then maybe so. I was teased because of my weight (and for other reasons as well) by both boys and girls day after day from kindergarten until my senior year of high school. So, yes I hide myself away as best as I could. I was a child and I didn't know how to cope any differently. I thought that would be my life for the rest of my life. I don't feel that I played into the abuse but I didn't fight it either (not until I was older, anyway). I felt so beaten down that I didn't realize I _could_ fight back. I suppose allowed myself to be victimized in a way but I certainly didn't seek out the abuse. If anything I tried desperately to hide from it...which in hindsight is how _I _victimized _myself_.
> 
> That being said, abusers are abusers no matter who their victims are or what they do to help create an abusive stituation. The 40 year old teacher who has sex with a 14 year old is still an abuser even if she came on to him. The husband who beats his wife is still an abuser even though she stays with him. The mother who abuses her child is still an abuser even though the child keeps misbehaving. It could be said that the 14 year old seductress, the battered wife, and the misbehaving kid were "playing into" the abuse but it doesn't change the fact that they were in fact abused. It doesn't excuse the abusers. No matter how much responsibility people (fat or otherwise) take upon themselves for the things they have consciously or unconsciously done to foster abusive situations, it should NEVER justify the abuse. Never, ever.





LillyBBBW said:


> Yes but like someone mentioned a while ago in another thread, why must I continually high kick like Jimmy Jam through the streets to keep people from hurling shit comments at me? Can't a shy fat woman walk down the street without being a target? Why aren't other shy people targets? I think we're missing the big picture here. If I don't wanna smile or I don't wanna scowl I dont' think that should be an open invitation for anybody with a pulse to say shit to me or hurl out abuse. So by being myself that means there's a sign on my forhead inviting all the good decent people in the world, " Go ahead and abuse me please! Indulge yours self righteous affirmations, I deserve it." ? It's not a good sell.



You are correct...abusers are responsible for their own shit/abuse. Sure, we can control how we react to things.....but abusers can also control their fucked up "need" to hurt others just because they hate themselves.
As a survivor, I take responsibility to stand up for myself and not allow myself into situations where I allow others to abuse me. That still doesn't give anyone that seeks to abuse a free ride...or excuse. Fuck 'em....



SocialbFly said:


> You know, i once learned a true lesson, i thought someone was staring at me, and yes, they were, and when i went and asked them if there was a problem, they just said they loved my hair and where did i get it done...sometimes we think it is one thing, when it is truly another, i pull the size card so rarely, but on the occasion i do pull it, i promise you, that is the issue.
> 
> But, having said that, i do agree that there are some that pull that card far too easily and quickly...we are defensive, society and media have made us so...doesnt mean we shouldnt strive for what is right...education to the ignorant masses is the key...







Falcon said:


> I don't intend to move this thread in another direction but this comment triggered a personal memory that I'll toss into the mix. I remember when I was about 12 I was with my mom in a department store. She stopped at the make-up and perfume counter and was visiting with the clerk, while I was bored out of my mind. (I mean, what could be a bigger torture for a twelve year-old boy than to be shipwrecked in the make-up and perfume section of a department store, right?)
> 
> Well, you know how department stores always seem to have the down escalator let you off right in front of the make-up and perfume counter? That's how this store was laid out. So, there I was. I'm sure I must have been squirming; I know I was embarrassed to be around all that girly stuff. I remember looking around and I glanced up at the escalator and saw this tall, SSBBW coming down in front of me. She was the largest woman I'd ever seen. Dark hair, very large upper arms and very large hips. It was one of those KLONG! moments in my life. I didn't mean to, but I know I was staring at her because when she got about ten feet from the end of the escalator she looked up and our eyes met. I don't know, it's like I was hooked; I couldn't stop looking at her. Well, when she saw me looking at her, she GLARED at me -- I mean, her eyes shot daggers in my direction. I was really embarrassed and I felt awful that I'd been staring at her and that she'd seen me. I figured I'd hurt her feelings.
> 
> ...



This is true and are excellent points. We shouldn't always assume that others seek to hurt us....even if it seems "normal" since so many have done it in the past. 
We should strive for "open minds" in our quest for "self love". Seek to look for the good things in ourselves.....see the good things that others might see in you all along 






Smushygirl said:


> LOL! I love you girl! But I think that is *your* own brand of special magic. I have seen it happen and been susceptible to it. You get a look on your face and I would do just about anything for you! Sadly for the rest of us...I don't think it happens! If I could bottle it and drink it in, I would, Lovey!



I concur with Smushy...you are a special woman, Felecia. I admire you and Smushy both so much  :bow:
I like to think that I "learn" from people that I deem more confident than myself....I could perceive them as "lucky" ...maybe they are....not everyone has lived my life....but I also learned that I haven't lived anyone elses... we all have our baggage and bad memories. Could it be this complicated or be as simple as some people just seem to handle it better than others? 
I can agree that it might not be as "easy" for others to do what Felecia does....I can't always accomplish it myself. I don't think Felecia intends to "excuse" any abusers with this thread, or blame the victim....I think she more seeks to talk about "self help"...which is a very important subject and makes us all stronger, IMO. 




Australian Lord said:


> The best response to "bullying" or someone "giving you shit" is to give it as good as you get right back to them. The whole Ghandi mentality in this case of "self restraint" is a load of rubbish, standing up and giving it back to them full bore is the best solution to the issue.
> 
> Thats just what I can say from personal experiences.



I believe in "fighting back". That being said...sometimes it just isn't worth it. Knowing your enemy and what it is that drives them...sometimes goes a long way towards gaining personal strength and understanding. 
I consider people with the need to abuse others more fucked up than myself....




Brenda said:


> I was taunted in school and even physically attacked due to my weight. From kindergarten to graduation I was tormented, socially rejected and made to feel horrible about my body and who I was. As a young adult I would occasionally get a called out for being fat by car full of teenagers or a drunk frat boy in a bar. As a fat adult I have not had a stranger make a negative comment about my body in years. I have even been in arguments at the post office and in front of the airport with strangers and they did not even go to the obvious fat insult.
> 
> While I in no way think I was responsible for the abuse I received as a young person I do think I am not abused now because of a change in my outlook. I am not intentionally avoiding abuse now but it rarely appears even though I am significantly heavier now. The difference I can see in myself I no longer am looking for a negative comment and I no longer care very much of what strangers think of me. Or maybe I have a cloak of invisibility around morons.
> 
> Brenda



I have to agree here, too. We CANNOT CHANGE OTHERS...but we do control how we feel about ourselves, our own actions and outlooks. 


> Serenity Prayer:
> 
> God grant me the serenity
> to accept the things I cannot change;
> ...



Sometimes you just have to say "fuck it" and move on......



ShakenBakeSharleen said:


> No one can make you feel anything you dont already consciously or latently feel. Youre wholly responsible for every emotion -> reaction in your repertoire unless, of course, youve been possessed. Thats fairly rare.
> 
> Carrying yourself with confidence may not entirely change how some people treat you because bullies feed off others insecurities to cushion their own. It will, however, change how and/or if you respond to said bullying. This is key. When youve actively cultivated and fostered an inner core of knowing the sum of each of your own parts and your own self-worth, youll realize its water off a ducks back.
> 
> ...



You said it better/more eloquently than myself.... :bow:


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## butch (May 25, 2008)

As someone said a few pages back (tonynyc, I think), where are the BHMs in this discussion? How do they experience these issues? I wish they'd share with us.

I can see aspects to a lot of the different points in this thread, but one thing I'd like to stress is, I think a lot of personality traits aren't so easily unlearned, and shyness certainly is one of those traits. Isn't part of the reason there is a whole slew of personality disorders in the DSM IV because some traits are seriously intertwinned into the very essence of one's being? Please note I am not saying shyness is a personality disorder! As an introvert, I simply believe that shyness is a state that doesn't have to be 'overcome' in order to gain basic decency from other people. 

Personally, I don't get a lot of direct abuse. I don't know how to quantify how much indirect abuse I get, but since I overlook or dismiss about 85% of what I perceive as indirect abuse, I feel pretty lucky. I have no idea why this is, and part of me likes to think that I get so little direct abuse because I seem somehow menacing to other people-like if they said something to my face I'd deck them. For those who know me, this is a laughable thought, but nonetheless, I am grateful, most of the time, for the possibility that I project an intimidating image that keeps overt abuse at bay.


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## olwen (May 25, 2008)

I can't rep you GEF. Good points all!

I've been reading this thread and going back and forth in my mind...Yes, if you're a shrinking violet and/or if you worry about what everyone else thinks you're more likely to see the potential for abuse from everybody all the time and always keep your guard up. Will this invite more abuse? Maybe, maybe not...

If you're confident then hopefully you just don't give a shit and act like the potential for abusive behavior in people isn't there and always give people the benefit of the doubt, and then either confront it or ignore it depending on the situation. Does being confident invite more abuse? Maybe, maybe not... 

My father was abusive. I learned from him how to deal with abusive people. The thing he hated the most was when I ignored him. It just made him angrier, and he either tried to say even more horrible things or get in my face. Sometimes it led to a fist fight (hit me and I hit you back) and some times he realized I wouldn't take the bait and he would walk away. I think tho, that fighting back was probably most affective, because he eventually stopped trying to hit me, and then he kept his comments under his breath and stopped saying it to my face. I think he eventually began to own up to the fact that he had no real power. 

Did I draw that abuse? No. Was I a shrinking violet? No. Did I blame myself? No, never. Was my attitude to such abuse positive or negative? Positive in that it made me stronger, negative in that I carried that abuse with me for a long time. Does my attitude affect how other people deal with me? Of course, but even tho I am usually positive and confident there will always be people who will try to make me feel like shit because of my weight or my color or my gender or whatever. So no, I don't think I draw abuse, but when it happens to me, I'm not gonna let it affect my outlook on life or my confidence or how I see myself. I will instead use those tools to fight back when necessary. Will fighting back prevent further abuse? Hopefully.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 25, 2008)

olwen said:


> I can't rep you GEF. Good points all!



I repped her for us both.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 25, 2008)

ripley said:


> I don't see being shy as a self-indulgent act. Is it any more self-indulgent than the person who manipulates people into "falling all over themselves to do things for [them]" or gets what they want "by hook or by crook"?
> 
> 
> Also, I find those people who "work the room" often to be insincere and off-putting. I'd rather be my reticent, genuine self. Being shy is NOT inherently worse than being outgoing. It's not inherently better to be the belle of the ball. It's just...different.



No, I don't think being shy is worse than being confident, either, in most cases. It's just different, like you said. Shyness can come from your nature, how you were raised, or social anxiety. The kind that comes from social anxiety is the kind that concerns me because it's often painful or uncomfortable for someone. My friend, Julie, suffered from it for decades, so her situation is the first I tend to think of when I see a wallflower. I will wonder if he or she's just quiet/introverted or a Julie/genuinely afraid to talk to people. Introverted people are as necessary to our social structure as extroverted people are, no doubt, but that's another basket entirely. At the risk of coming off as defensive, I'd like to matter-of-factly reiterate that I didn't put shyness on a scale to compare it to confidence.  I simply said you've got to wonder if, at the end of the day, you really care how people treat you when it's *you* living with *you* and not them.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 25, 2008)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Wow...I had this long response typed to this thread and hit the wrong key and lost the whole damn thing :doh:
> Second attempt...I hope I can recapture what I originally said.
> 
> [truncated...]
> ...





A) I hate when that happens!

and 

B) You give me way too much credit, Meez Caroline :happy: I'm flattered, though. Thank you :blush:


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## ripley (May 25, 2008)

ShakenBakeSharleen said:


> No, I don't think being shy is worse than being confident, either, in most cases.



I don't find shyness and confidence to be mutually exclusive.


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## olwen (May 25, 2008)

ripley said:


> I don't find shyness and confidence to be mutually exclusive.



You know it just hit me: when they go together it's called being coy.


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## ripley (May 25, 2008)

Me? Coy? Never.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 25, 2008)

ripley said:


> I don't find shyness and confidence to be mutually exclusive.



Neither do I. I believe they're just rungs on a spectrum, as I implied before.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 25, 2008)

I'm not taking anyone's side, Ripley. I'm stating my own opinion. Just wanted to be clear... again. :happy: I know you can be sensitive, and I understand how it may look. Trust me, I value your opinion as highly as any good friend's opinion :wubu:


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## tonynyc (May 25, 2008)

butch said:


> As someone said a few pages back (tonynyc, I think), where are the BHMs in this discussion? How do they experience these issues? I wish they'd share with us.



Hi Butch: 

Interesting thread AND there are just so many levels of abuse to consider 1. the random stranger encounter 
2. work environment 
3. treatment from family/loved ones 
4. treatment from supposed 'friends'
5. treatment as a patient 
6. treatment in the role of s consumer at a store
7. treatment within our own Size Acceptance community 

The only perspective as a BHM that I can offer is that many times I "try" to approach every situation with awareness and caution. Maybe it's the perspection of a big guy in a confrontation. It's finding that balance between killing with kindness vs. confrontational and what will work or don't. 

"life has unpredictable endings"

very important lesson that I learned from the Pastor at church. He described his start of Memorial day and how certain events can have an unexpected twist. From his wife and son getting to meet Helicopter pilots for an unexpected airshow at Orchard Beach - to the Naval Ship crashing into one of the piers (wouldn't think that this could happen to experienced Naval personnel) - to the early evening call he recieved to rush to the hospital to administer last rites to a 10 month old preemie that wasn't going to survive.

Moral of the story - we might think things will work one way and it very well can; but, be prepared for the unexpected.


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## 1300 Class (May 25, 2008)

> I believe in "fighting back". That being said...sometimes it just isn't worth it. Knowing your enemy and what it is that drives them...sometimes goes a long way towards gaining personal strength and understanding.
> I consider people with the need to abuse others more fucked up than myself....


Taking an example from another thread, there was a person who was pushed down a flight of stairs, for whatever reason has not been made clear, but the reason at the moment is neither here nor there, the fact remains of the response and whether it was a active or passive. Now, the best way to deal with that there would be, in my opinion, to go after them and give them some of their own medicine, making a clear statment saying "don't fuck with me again", because that's the only langauge they understand as the passive response will only bring encouragement on their behalf, until they are shown that your not to be messed with, it will continue.


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## Fyreflyintheskye (May 25, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Taking an example from another thread, there was a person who was pushed down a flight of stairs, for whatever reason has not been made clear, but the reason at the moment is neither here nor there, the fact remains of the response and whether it was a active or passive. Now, the best way to deal with that there would be, in my opinion, to go after them and give them some of their own medicine, making a clear statment saying "don't fuck with me again", because that's the only langauge they understand as the passive response will only bring encouragement on their behalf, until they are shown that your not to be messed with, it will continue.



You know, an action getting pushed down a flight of stairs really warrants a physical confrontation. Whether you're 8 or an adult. And anyone who doesn't agree, seriously, let me go tape my ears and eyes up because I could give a damn.  Words preceding that may have helped avoid it, but any sneaky fucker who would come up behind someone and do that deserves to be bruised and shamed.

Quote this


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## ripley (May 25, 2008)

I don't think it's very wise to advise people to "fight back" in a physical manner. You don't know if the person is armed, crazy, whatever...and I think it could quickly escalate a situation out of control, and lead to even more severe injury or death. I'm all for saying stuff back to verbal abuse...I do that myself. But advising people to fight back physically because the other party "deserves it" is a disservice, in my opinion. If it's physical, go to the police or to security or whatever, but stay safe.








ShakenBakeSharleen said:


> I'm not taking anyone's side, Ripley. I'm stating my own opinion. Just wanted to be clear... again. :happy: I know you can be sensitive, and I understand how it may look. Trust me, I value your opinion as highly as any good friend's opinion :wubu:


 

Um, okay. 

Seems like everyone around here likes to tell me that I am "sensitive"...and I know that I can be, but I'm always out here giving my opinion even when it's not the popular one...sometimes I'd like a little credit for that, too. I didn't think I was being overly sensitive in this thread, just stating my view, but people's perceptions will be what they will and there is not much I can do about that, especially because I am not about to change who I am to fit in with what they think.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (May 25, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Taking an example from another thread, there was a person who was pushed down a flight of stairs, for whatever reason has not been made clear, but the reason at the moment is neither here nor there, the fact remains of the response and whether it was a active or passive. Now, the best way to deal with that there would be, in my opinion, to go after them and give them some of their own medicine, making a clear statment saying "don't fuck with me again", because that's the only langauge they understand as the passive response will only bring encouragement on their behalf, until they are shown that your not to be messed with, it will continue.



I have met people in my lifetime that do seem to only understand this approach. I'm not saying do not defend yourself.....simply meant choose your battles wisely 

**I don't consider someone pushing me down the stairs on the same tier as someone calling me fat in a fit of anger.


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## TraciJo67 (May 26, 2008)

Australian Lord said:


> Taking an example from another thread, there was a person who was pushed down a flight of stairs, for whatever reason has not been made clear, but the reason at the moment is neither here nor there, the fact remains of the response and whether it was a active or passive. Now, the best way to deal with that there would be, in my opinion, to go after them and give them some of their own medicine, making a clear statment saying "don't fuck with me again", because that's the only langauge they understand as the passive response will only bring encouragement on their behalf, until they are shown that your not to be messed with, it will continue.



Nah, in that case I'd have the perpetrator arrested for assault. 

I wouldn't confront violence with violence. That's not advisable, for most people.


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## tonynyc (May 26, 2008)

When it comes Verbal assault- you have to look at the way you react and a physical confrontation is not good. If you win the physical combat you may end up the loser in court. Now if we are talking about a 'Physcial Assault' that you ae a victim- then you enter a whole different arena or ballgame.

If you are being physically assualted and you retaliate - to me that's not violence on violence - but, *self defense*. 

As AustrianLord, SBSharleen and others have said - "retaliate" (it's self defense) and in most cases you should have the law on your side;but, for many reasons this is not an option and you no do tllok at other methods that Traci and Ripley 

And as GEF said you have to choose your battles wisely and figure out what avoidance/exist strategy works for you.


Getting to my earlier point on life's unpredictability- when it comes to a street fight- even the biggest so called baddest 'dude' can have their day...

*Suge Knight Beat Down*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aABG5P8rHtM


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## superodalisque (May 26, 2008)

woohooo!!!!! love those comments, and that includes those that disagree with mine! wonderful discussion.

i knew my comments would come out sounding somewhat superior. the more i tried, the more i realized there was no way to avoid it. but, the subject was important enough that i decided so what if i get flamed. i knew a lot of people i like and respect would think it was messed up.

on the subject of being shy. i love my friends who are shy. and, as i mentioned before i am often shy myself. but the problem with being shy is that its limiting for us. it keeps us from doing things and from competely being ourselves. and when we don't show everything we have to offer as a person we give up a lot of the power that we possess. its something that one should definitely try to get over in my opinion. besides its just plain uncomfortable.

being shy does not make anyone a bad person. but the entire thing about being shy is that there is an inference that comes with it that someone is not good enough. the charm of being coy is that it is an act. the person doing it is well aware that they are the bomb. i think that a shy person is worried about what others think of them a bit too much. and also there is an assumption with that shyness that other people won't be nice about any of your short comings. its sort of a pessimistic kind of a thing. i'm not sure that pessimism goes with acceptance.

one wonderful example of how i think self acceptance works:
i have lived here in atlanta twice. once in the eighties and now as an adult. this place has changed a lot for african americans. why? mainly because of self acceptance. when i was here before african americans were working hard at it but they still basically felt that their duty was to get the majority population to change and to do what was right. we were supposed to get the majority to "like " us. we were supposed to be like them. however, there were many things that we were not doing for ourselves. then, there was a sea change. a different generation of african ameriicans came along. their thought was "who cares what the majority population thinks, lets do what we know is good for us." then we saw people leaving corporate where the glass cieling weighed heavily on their heads and starting their own businesses etc... guess what! they were verrry successful! this led to things like huge contracts to build the airport, build olympic facilities etc...

guess what the fallout was? when black people here stopped asking people to look on them kindly and focused on their own power the majority population began to look on them more kindly. we weren't looking for anyone to "help" us, or feel sorry for us or like us. we just did what we needed to move ourselves forward. and, when legal rights were violated we went to courts like everyone else. all of the energy we had been using regarding the fact that people might not like us was placed in the action column. no one had time feel sorry for themselves anymore. we were too busy making money and forming networks. if there was a problem people got together and did something. so the people with the racist scowls went unnoticed because we had something more important to do. and when we stopped noticing they stopped doing because they didn't get a reaction.

people want to relate to success. pretty soon it became unfashionable to be a racist here. you even see people who are in the majority trying their best to pick up parts of the african american culture here. they find our story exciting and inspiring. they want to be a part of it. if we big folk can ever get with it and accept ourselves i think we can make it unacceptable to treat fat people in a negative way. i know that not everyone can get there immediately and that its a process. hey, there are still a lot of african americans here and in the rest of the country who need a boost too. 

i really do feel that acceptance comes from a recognizition of your own power. so if we don't show our own personal power and use it ourselves people feel safe in being abusive toward us. there doesn't seem to be consequences for them social or otherwise. there is nothing for them to lose . we have nothing they want. i know i keep talking about vegas but, there was such a show of love and support that thin women were asking me who my group was and if they could join. thats why i love dims so much. we aren't prefect but we are really trying hard. people notice. people are impressed.

i'm also of the opinion that its very hard for many people to let the feeling of victimization go because thats scary. it means there is nothing else to blame but yourself if things go wrong. one won't have a nebulous ism to come between us and our own personal failures.


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## olwen (May 26, 2008)

Supero, I do see what you're saying here about personal power. The more we rally and speak out against injustice the louder our voices carry, maybe the more people start to listen which is certainly what the size acceptance movement tries to do. Not to bring everyone down, but the fight however is daunting when scientists, governmental agencies, doctors, researcers, et al are able to get away with flimsy justifications for such abuses. Fattism is different from racism in that way. It's unthinkable for a lot of people to even question the whole idea that fat is killing us. It's harder still to give up that idea when people see confident fat people defying and flaunting the unthinkable....So I wonder if simply being confident is enough to garner support from the world at large and change minds against such "weighty" justifications for fat hatred. What else could we/should we be doing to get the people who make the policies and claims that damage us to change _their _minds?


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## butch (May 27, 2008)

olwen, your post reminds me of something that I think is crucial to recognize in our fight for acceptance as fat people-the fact that in the media and medicine and other places that are leading the way in 'talking' about fat to the general population, positive fat people themselves are never part of that dialogue. All these non-fat people are making claims about us, and telling us the 'reality' of fat and what needs to be 'done' about the 'obesity epidemic' but they speak and act for us, not with us.

Until we are allowed space in the public sphere to speak as authorities about our own fat bodies, we really are at a detriment. I wonder at what point in the fight for civil rights did people of color get to be the primary spokespersons for this issue? It seems ridiculous today to think about any discussion about racism without the voices of self accepting, proud people of color, and yet when it comes to fat, we're rarely allowed to particpate in the narratives about our existence, and it infuriates me.


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## Friday (May 27, 2008)

I don't know that it will ever come Butch. People insist that homosexuality is a choice because then they feel free to condemn it. Fat is a choice (in their minds) so therefore they have a god given duty to condemn it. Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins you know. Most people I think will eventually come to the realization that sexuality isn't a choice for others any more than it is for them, but they will always be firmly convinced that FAT PEOPLE CAN (and *should*) LOSE WEIGHT AND QUIT BEING SUCH LAZY PIGS!! It's another way to pat themselves on the back for their own, nonexistent, virtue.


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## superodalisque (May 27, 2008)

butch said:


> olwen, your post reminds me of something that I think is crucial to recognize in our fight for acceptance as fat people-the fact that in the media and medicine and other places that are leading the way in 'talking' about fat to the general population, positive fat people themselves are never part of that dialogue. All these non-fat people are making claims about us, and telling us the 'reality' of fat and what needs to be 'done' about the 'obesity epidemic' but they speak and act for us, not with us.
> 
> Until we are allowed space in the public sphere to speak as authorities about our own fat bodies, we really are at a detriment. I wonder at what point in the fight for civil rights did people of color get to be the primary spokespersons for this issue? It seems ridiculous today to think about any discussion about racism without the voices of self accepting, proud people of color, and yet when it comes to fat, we're rarely allowed to particpate in the narratives about our existence, and it infuriates me.



there a few people out there talking . maybe not always who we want to be doing the talking though. those i see are the ones who really hate their fat and want to lose the weight or those willing to make a joke of themselves. the others are often involved in some form of media, or an industry that automatically discounts what we have to say just because of our association with it. lately i have begun to see a few fat psychologists etc... dealing with women and their body issues. i think i saw one on the tyra show. the show was about body image in general--ot just fat body image. i should have gotten her name but it was a fleeting glance .


i think there is some kind of sea change coming simply because the media does not know exactly what to do about us. they really can't do the shows anymore with the clumsy tacky women they used to do in the eighties where we were an inadvertant or obvious joke unless they want to seem very low brow. now they actually do have to try to find well heeled, educated fat people with brains unless they are someone like gerry springer. 

there are a lot of people who can afford WLS but are not making the choice to have it. why is that? i know my doc and i had that discussion. he's fat and knows i'm interested in the acceptance movement. he admitted that he has a lot of patients who really aren't interested in losing the weight. we wondered together-- whats happening with that? 

society at large (pun intended ) isn't quite ready for a great image of fat people either but i think its coming. maybe this is such a huge change that it really threatens the status quo. its hard for people to change their way of thinking over night. you can't always insult what will soon be the majority of americans. it doesn't make economic sense. i think thats why we are getting some backlash. we are making some inroads and some of us are not apologetic for existing anymore. so when we have events people want to protest us now. they were fine with us when we were all crying and dieting. we must be doing something right.

*Chins Up


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## LillyBBBW (May 27, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> woohooo!!!!! love those comments, and that includes those that disagree with mine! wonderful discussion.
> 
> i knew my comments would come out sounding somewhat superior. the more i tried, the more i realized there was no way to avoid it. but, the subject was important enough that i decided so what if i get flamed. i knew a lot of people i like and respect would think it was messed up.
> 
> ...



What about all the African Americans who didn't want to start their own businesses? What about the ones who got sick and tired of it all and decided to pack up their shit and move to Chicago or Detroit to become successful? They made a decision as an adult based on what was within their overall best interests. It doesn't mean they were too weak to take the heat like the rest of you, it means they were strong enough to do what they felt was best for them. They would neither be intimidated by what bigots will think nor by what sanctimonious idealist will think of their actions. The turnaround in Atlanta also came with grotesque stories of failure for some unfortunate individuals who would have been better off elsewhere. Also bear in mind that this different generation of oh so successful young African Americans were facing a different generation of oh so successful young white Americans. Could it be possible that these young white Americans were whiney enough to cave to the bleeding heart philosophy that bigotry is limiting and hurtful for everyone? No, of course not. Black power, rah rah rah, and all that. Surely all those people burned and hung on trees a generation earlier were responsible for thier own demise because they didn't smile and dance as gaily as this present generation. 

I think shy might be the wrong word to use in this instance. Lets use the word quiet or reserved. Maybe introverted would be more suitable. The point is, this may be a personality trait that the person is most comfortable in. This is me. I keep to myself and I'm often absorbed in my own thoughts while out and about. Otherwise I'm perfect in every way. I have no personal failures nor any obsessive worry that I do. Many times my demeanor is mistaken for one who is shy, insecure and easily intimidated which is far from true. People are often taken by surprise once they realize I'm not merely a shill for their amusement and that I will look directly at them. 

So yeah, bla bla bla, not a victim, stand up for my rights, I can take care of myself, yada yada, I'm so stellar.... this must mean you're right, right? The point here is that I. HAVE. TO. DO. THIS. Don't get me wrong, it is no effort on my part and merely an automatic response -- so much so that it is soon forgotten after it occurs, but it does occur. Trying to affix a level of shame on other people because they cant breeze through like I can is ignorant. If something for me or them is bothersome then that's what it is and we are perfectly within our right to respond in any way that we feel is appropriate. I owe no one any explanation nor will one be offered and no it doesn't mean I'm a sissy. It means I'm a mature adult who prefers to take ownership of who and what *I* am without being intimidated into doing otherwise. The point is to be respected as a person, not as a people.


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## Tad (May 27, 2008)

Was just catching up on this thread (lots of interesting points on various sides), and something Lilly said here kind of resonated with an article I read in the newspaper a couple of days ago. It was suggesting something that to some is probably unthinkable, that we are sending too many kids to college. That a good chunk of those who do manage to get in somewhere are really not equipped to appreciate the material nor thrive in that environment, and might well be better served with other types of education.

Why that came back to my memory after reading what Lilly said was that I think so often general goals get set by people for whom those goals are easy. Fitness goals are set by those who are naturally trim and athletically gifted, educational aspirations are preached by those who like school and do well in it, the power of self-confidence and standing up for yourself is lauded by those who are good at that.

If youve honestly tried, but reading and writing is still a trial for you and not something you like doing nor something that you do well, maybe college is not the right choice for you. But our society should provide other educational options that make use of your skills, and give you respect for doing what you are good at.

If you have been fat all your life, are active, have fairly reasonable eating, but have never had much luck at losing and keeping off much weight, then aiming to run a marathon probably is not wise, no matter who says anyone can train to run a marathon. Your joints wont thank you for abusing them that way. If you have never kept much weight off, then taking the drastic steps necessary to get thin may not even be wise, as it may not be possible to give your body adequate nutrition and actually be thin. And yes you should get credit for taking care of your health.

Likewise, if you have always been a shy person who hates conflict, then trying to deal with this sort of thing by standing up to people may not be the right course for you, you simply may not be good at that. And frankly, society as a whole should be standing up for you, in that abusers should not be tolerated just as long as they dont try it on me. That is kind of like saying Well, muggers wont bother me because Im 63, muscular, and look like a tough SOB. So why do I care if there are a lot of muggers around? The solution to that many muggers is not for everyone to study karate and become as strong and tall as you, it is to find ways to reduce the number of muggers. Yes, giving people basic self-defense skills may be one part of the solution, but it is surely not the whole solution.


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## mergirl (May 27, 2008)

ok! i have too much to say and my brain is a garbled mess, so i shall ramble for a bit and then i can clear up the mess afterwards if need be:
I think that fat o phobia is the last bastian of bigotory left. I'm talking from a western perspective that is hugely influenced by the media.
If we look as an example at two forms of bigotory that have/do exist; homophobia and racism we find that it is rare to see out and out racism/homophobia on tv/magazines/films etc. Although there may be less positive gay/black role models (as we touched on in another thread) you will never see out and out gay bashing or racism being advocated in an out and out way. 
Its just different for fat. Because the western world cannot accept that anyone would want to be fat or be fat and accept thier bodies..
so we have shows like "the biggest loser" and countless other shows where the "poor fat bastards" are helped to become better people..complete with makeovers/montages and inspirational soundtracks (vomit enducing pish) "you gotta search for the hero inside yourself".. 
and i think this is where the problem lies..
You would NEVER find a show.."the biggests whitey" where black people get skin bleaches to become more white.. or "the littlest homo" where gays get magic dust sprinkled over them to become straight! or however those shows might go!
it is assumed that fat people want to/must change!
Because civil rights movements for both black and gay people have fought long and hard for years for equality. That just doesnt happen in the fat community.. 
its all underground..and if people get pissed off they come to a fat friendly place to talk about thier experiences of being bullied etc.
its like preaching to the converted..
There are no fat pride marches or no nottinghill fat carnivals!
why is that?
we cant blame bullying nor oppression because black and gay people have experienced that in abundance..but still society is changing, albeit slowly.. but it is..
is it because fat people arnt actually sure of themselves? or the ability to fight for equality?
is it because weight can be transiant unlike sexuality or race?
is it because there are no real fat role models or activists that we can look up to?
i'm not saying people HAVE to fight..and i think most people fight on a personal level each day.. 
but for things to change people have to be willing to make changes and to make a stand in what they believe to be a just cause..
The initial post is one that rings true in many ways..and everyone will talk about thier own personal experiences of hardship that they have encountered being fat, but this is an issue that is being engrained and isnt likely to change unless there is social change and a less fat o phobic media. Maby there needs to be some sort of fat revolution.. because at the moment its just complete devolution...what with erm..that curly haired gay guy?? whats his name? and the like.. not wanting to change social views but to change fat people..
it seems to be something that is more or less accepted..recounted with stories of abuse but never in a proactive way looking for ways of change..
erm..ive rambled enough..and i forget what the post was about..
viva la fat resistance!

x mer


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## mergirl (May 27, 2008)

but to actually talk about the initial thred.. i think sometimes people do expect to be shat on.. and when they are they think "ahh well, thats what i was expecting anyway". There might even be instances when someone is looking at you.. and you might think they were giving you a dirty look.. when infact they could be thinking you are hot..

xmer


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## LillyBBBW (May 27, 2008)

mergirl said:


> but to actually talk about the initial thred.. i think sometimes people do expect to be shat on.. and when they are they think "ahh well, thats what i was expecting anyway". There might even be instances when someone is looking at you.. and you might think they were giving you a dirty look.. when infact they could be thinking you are hot..
> 
> xmer



This is certainly true however I do not like the term "Drawing Abuse." A misunderstanding or a sense of paranoia we all have in some degree or another. Walking by a gang of giggling teens can be nerve racking for anybody. This term though implies that one is only being abused because of an outward demeanor that attracts the attention of abusive people. Call me crazy but I don't see what difference this makes. It's another way of saying ones apperance is to blame.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 27, 2008)

Lilly?

Will you marry me?:wubu:




LillyBBBW said:


> What about all the African Americans who didn't want to start their own businesses? What about the ones who got sick and tired of it all and decided to pack up their shit and move to Chicago or Detroit to become successful? They made a decision as an adult based on what was within their overall best interests. It doesn't mean they were too weak to take the heat like the rest of you, it means they were strong enough to do what they felt was best for them. They would neither be intimidated by what bigots will think nor by what sanctimonious idealist will think of their actions. The turnaround in Atlanta also came with grotesque stories of failure for some unfortunate individuals who would have been better off elsewhere. Also bear in mind that this different generation of oh so successful young African Americans were facing a different generation of oh so successful young white Americans. Could it be possible that these young white Americans were whiney enough to cave to the bleeding heart philosophy that bigotry is limiting and hurtful for everyone? No, of course not. Black power, rah rah rah, and all that. Surely all those people burned and hung on trees a generation earlier were responsible for thier own demise because they didn't smile and dance as gaily as this present generation.
> 
> I think shy might be the wrong word to use in this instance. Lets use the word quiet or reserved. Maybe introverted would be more suitable. The point is, this may be a personality trait that the person is most comfortable in. This is me. I keep to myself and I'm often absorbed in my own thoughts while out and about. Otherwise I'm perfect in every way. I have no personal failures nor any obsessive worry that I do. Many times my demeanor is mistaken for one who is shy, insecure and easily intimidated which is far from true. People are often taken by surprise once they realize I'm not merely a shill for their amusement and that I will look directly at them.
> 
> So yeah, bla bla bla, not a victim, stand up for my rights, I can take care of myself, yada yada, I'm so stellar.... this must mean you're right, right? The point here is that I. HAVE. TO. DO. THIS. Don't get me wrong, it is no effort on my part and merely an automatic response -- so much so that it is soon forgotten after it occurs, but it does occur. Trying to affix a level of shame on other people because they cant breeze through like I can is ignorant. If something for me or them is bothersome then that's what it is and we are perfectly within our right to respond in any way that we feel is appropriate. I owe no one any explanation nor will one be offered and no it doesn't mean I'm a sissy. It means I'm a mature adult who prefers to take ownership of who and what *I* am without being intimidated into doing otherwise. The point is to be respected as a person, not as a people.


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## Friday (May 28, 2008)

You're hitting the point exactly Lilly. It reeks of the whole 'she was asking for it' thing when you imply that fat people somehow 'ask' to be abused.


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## superodalisque (May 28, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> What about all the African Americans who didn't want to start their own businesses? What about the ones who got sick and tired of it all and decided to pack up their shit and move to Chicago or Detroit to become successful? They made a decision as an adult based on what was within their overall best interests. It doesn't mean they were too weak to take the heat like the rest of you, it means they were strong enough to do what they felt was best for them. They would neither be intimidated by what bigots will think nor by what sanctimonious idealist will think of their actions. The turnaround in Atlanta also came with grotesque stories of failure for some unfortunate individuals who would have been better off elsewhere. Also bear in mind that this different generation of oh so successful young African Americans were facing a different generation of oh so successful young white Americans. Could it be possible that these young white Americans were whiney enough to cave to the bleeding heart philosophy that bigotry is limiting and hurtful for everyone? No, of course not. Black power, rah rah rah, and all that. Surely all those people burned and hung on trees a generation earlier were responsible for thier own demise because they didn't smile and dance as gaily as this present generation.
> 
> I think shy might be the wrong word to use in this instance. Lets use the word quiet or reserved. Maybe introverted would be more suitable. The point is, this may be a personality trait that the person is most comfortable in. This is me. I keep to myself and I'm often absorbed in my own thoughts while out and about. Otherwise I'm perfect in every way. I have no personal failures nor any obsessive worry that I do. Many times my demeanor is mistaken for one who is shy, insecure and easily intimidated which is far from true. People are often taken by surprise once they realize I'm not merely a shill for their amusement and that I will look directly at them.
> 
> So yeah, bla bla bla, not a victim, stand up for my rights, I can take care of myself, yada yada, I'm so stellar.... this must mean you're right, right? The point here is that I. HAVE. TO. DO. THIS. Don't get me wrong, it is no effort on my part and merely an automatic response -- so much so that it is soon forgotten after it occurs, but it does occur. Trying to affix a level of shame on other people because they cant breeze through like I can is ignorant. If something for me or them is bothersome then that's what it is and we are perfectly within our right to respond in any way that we feel is appropriate. I owe no one any explanation nor will one be offered and no it doesn't mean I'm a sissy. It means I'm a mature adult who prefers to take ownership of who and what *I* am without being intimidated into doing otherwise. The point is to be respected as a person, not as a people.



great points! however :

the african americans who didn't want to start their own businesses benefited from the ones that did. they gained friendlier employment in 2 ways:
a) by working for other african americans
b) by benefiting from the monetary power and educational power that 
made others more hesitant re: workplace discrimmination. more 
money and more attorneys= more protection.

so by encouranging bbws who can to gain skills maybe we can create a friendlier environment for the ones who really can't.

african americans who moved to chicago, detroit etc... and became successful were great as well. but, since i'm not from those cities i chose the story i was most familiar with to illustrate my point. besides an area that contains the most black millionaires in the entire world and the largest black collegiate center in the entire world does have something to offer by way of a success story. if say, houston was a place where bbws seemed to have the most acceptance i'd want to see what they were doing.

and yes there were failures here as well. thats life. sometimes we do fail. but those are not usually the stories we study when we are trying to succeed. usually we take a look at what others have done that has worked. 

i wouldn't say that younger white americans are whiney or caving because they observed what happened before and decided to be better. or because they were impressed by people who took their destiny into their own hands. i'd call that intelligent. and they are not the only generation that made the change. some older atlantans have done an about face. i have to give them kudos because it must be very difficult to admit how really wrong things were before.

re:bbws the younger generation is already doing better when it comes to size acceptance. young bbws have a lot more confidence than they did when i was a girl. young FAs are also doing a better job of expressing their preference than in the past. thats because older ones pushed themselves out there even when it was much harder than it is now. and if society changes because of the push i wouldn't thnk that was whimpy either. they'd just be responding to the irresistable force of bbws and FAs using every skill they had or could learn to make the change.

as for the earlier generations that were lynched and hung, of course they were not at fault. but i really can't remember the last time a bbw was lynched or hung for being fat. in those days being fat was seen as being a more beneficial thing than it is today.

your right, quiet and reserved are a lot different from shy. thats why i chose to use the word shy instead. they have an entirely different connotaton. quiet and reserved can be powerful in their own right. they can definitely be positive characteristics. so my comments about being shy had nothing to do with anyone who is just quiet reserved or introverted.

and , no i don't have to be right. i'm wrong regularly. its kind of a habit i developed that comes with being human. but i also believe that everyone has to do this--that is face a life challenge. thin people have them too. you just aren't able to see them. nevertheless they are there. and even with social acceptance challenges are still difficult. if your child is dying of cancer society is with you but its still extremely hard. no one should feel shame just because they have a challenge to face. no one should feel shame becasue they don't always do things in exactly the right way, whether they can change the outcome or not. but i do think that running from the possibility of getting some control over what others might try and do to you counterproductive. even if the idea that we can take some power in controlling how others treat us is difficult to swallow it doesn't mean its a bad thing to look at it. what if its true? what if it can be done and it was never tried? where's the hope in that? 

i don't think anyone has a lock on whats actually happening. its probably something that meets somewhere in the middle as most things do.

i don't expect anyone to explain themselves. all i do know is that i have tried to gather some skills throughout my life. sometimes they come from observation, experience or even from formal classes and counseling. i really can't imagine how those things could not benefit a bbw in terms of fighting off abuse or even deterring it. i mean, most abusers don't seem to look for an obviously strong target. so, its logical to think about the possibility that if we don't come across as strong abusers might target us.

i also think that part of the power of size acceptance comes from the power of numbers. 

you are stellar! but a little rah rah rah wouldn't hurt


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## superodalisque (May 28, 2008)

edx said:


> Was just catching up on this thread (lots of interesting points on various sides), and something Lilly said here kind of resonated with an article I read in the newspaper a couple of days ago. It was suggesting something that to some is probably unthinkable, that we are sending too many kids to college. That a good chunk of those who do manage to get in somewhere are really not equipped to appreciate the material nor thrive in that environment, and might well be better served with other types of education.
> 
> Why that came back to my memory after reading what Lilly said was that I think so often general goals get set by people for whom those goals are easy. Fitness goals are set by those who are naturally trim and athletically gifted, educational aspirations are preached by those who like school and do well in it, the power of self-confidence and standing up for yourself is lauded by those who are good at that.
> 
> ...



interesting idea. the only thing is what if the people telling you that you can't do something are wrong? what if you feel you can't do something only because you haven't had the right help yet? i had a lot of problems growing up with that idea in academia as an african american. people told me i wasn't equipped and i wasn't ready. i wasn't the best student in high school. it looked as though they were right. but when i went to college it was more for me than high school and i graduated with honors. i'm sorry--its just that can't is the devil for me to take sometimes. if someone wants something they should at least try. and maybe try again later if another or different opportunity presents itself.


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## LillyBBBW (May 28, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> interesting idea. the only thing is what if the people telling you that you can't do something are wrong? what if you feel you can't do something only because you haven't had the right help yet? i had a lot of problems growing up with that idea in academia as an african american. people told me i wasn't equipped and i wasn't ready. i wasn't the best student in high school. it looked as though they were right. but when i went to college it was more for me than high school and i graduated with honors. i'm sorry--its just that can't is the devil for me to take sometimes. if someone wants something they should at least try. and maybe try again later if another or different opportunity presents itself.



The thing is, that is a great idealist view that I held at one time before I learned a few things. I used to speak that schpiel to my sister all the time. She's a gentle soft spoken poetic outrageously intelligent girl. When we were kids she was the cute smart one while I was loud, fat and dumb - seriously. She got picked on, I beat the crap out of anybody who did it and never got picked on. I've given her every speech, she's been to counseling, I've seen her take on the persona and it was unconvincing and an awkward tool in her hands. We're 40 years old and a few things are clear: I can't apply myself and become soft, gentle, size 16 woman with an instinct for cooking; she can't apply herself and become loud, offensive and brutally honest -- it's just not in us to be anything but what we are. 

Her gentle vulnerable nature has been a source of distress for me for most of my life. Almost as much as it is for her. If she could change it she surely would but she can't. I've stopped badgering her about it. There isn't anything she can do and the last thing she needs is more people shoving her around hollering in her ears while the aggressors trumble along without even being examined or held accountable. Sometimes you have to defend the defenseless and speak out on behalf of those who can't speak for themselves, it's the great commission of humanity. She doesn't mind coming around to help me figure out how to hook up my DVD/VCR and clear viruses from my computer. I don't mind sending threats to constables and rabid ex girlfriends on her behalf via certified letter and demanding they cease the harassmemt or they'll wish they would slip into a coma. It's what I do, it's what I'm good at. Where I can pound my chest and claim I've chopped my way through the brush for others to go fourth in peace there are others who can make the same claim in some other area where I can go without worry. It's not a matter of will power or trying harder.


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## Tad (May 28, 2008)

What Lilly said.

And: we can all get better at something by practicing, trying, studying, etc. But getting better does not always mean that we'll ever be good at it, depending on where we are starting from.


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## TraciJo67 (May 28, 2008)

Friday said:


> You're hitting the point exactly Lilly. It reeks of the whole 'she was asking for it' thing when you imply that fat people somehow 'ask' to be abused.



I don't think that she's implying we've asked to be abused, only that a good defense is the best offense (to coin a slightly overused phrase ). 

Still, I think that a point is being missed. Most of the people who have posted in this thread aren't cringing, vulnerable wallflowers. I'm not, and I never was. I'm well-educated, articulate, and I present myself authoritatively. To some extent, I always have.

But I learned long ago to choose my battles. If I confronted every indifferent salesperson, every bigot who snickered as I walked by, every man who opened a door for himself and let it slam on my hip as I attempted to walk in directly behind him, every woman who gave me the pitying eyeroll ... I'd have simply exhausted myself by all the unpleasantness and would have gotten nowhere. Confrontation doesn't change minds that are already made up. In all the years that I spent trying to pretend that the subtle bigotry didn't affect my psyche to at least *some* extent, there is only one incident that stands out, and makes me wish I'd have handled it differently. That was walking into a grocery store, having a man look over at me and then loudly proclaim to his (mortified) wife: "God, how do they let themselves GET that BIG??" I was caught off guard, humiliated, and certainly wasn't thinking clearly. What I did was pretend that I didn't hear him. What I should have done was look him straight in his mean, hostile face and ask him who in the Sam Hill fuck did he think he was talking to, and what made his short, squat, balding, narrow-minded self any kind of expert on how other people should look. Not because it would have changed his mind, but because it would have made *me* feel better. 

superodalisque, with respect, I understand the points that you are making, but they do at least lend credence to the notion that someone who doesn't stand up and confront subtle (or even overt) bigotry is somehow drawing that abuse ... even if that isn't what you are trying to say. The point should be that the bigotry itself is unacceptable, no matter how we personally choose to deal with it. That is not to say that we shouldn't work to influence change, just that we shouldn't expect everyone to want, or even be equipped, to fight that fight.


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## superodalisque (May 28, 2008)

LillyBBBW said:


> The thing is, that is a great idealist view that I held at one time before I learned a few things. I used to speak that schpiel to my sister all the time. She's a gentle soft spoken poetic outrageously intelligent girl. When we were kids she was the cute smart one while I was loud, fat and dumb - seriously. She got picked on, I beat the crap out of anybody who did it and never got picked on. I've given her every speech, she's been to counseling, I've seen her take on the persona and it was unconvincing and an awkward tool in her hands. We're 40 years old and a few things are clear: I can't apply myself and become soft, gentle, size 16 woman with an instinct for cooking; she can't apply herself and become loud, offensive and brutally honest -- it's just not in us to be anything but what we are.
> 
> Her gentle vulnerable nature has been a source of distress for me for most of my life. Almost as much as it is for her. If she could change it she surely would but she can't. I've stopped badgering her about it. There isn't anything she can do and the last thing she needs is more people shoving her around hollering in her ears while the aggressors trumble along without even being examined or held accountable. Sometimes you have to defend the defenseless and speak out on behalf of those who can't speak for themselves, it's the great commission of humanity. She doesn't mind coming around to help me figure out how to hook up my DVD/VCR and clear viruses from my computer. I don't mind sending threats to constables and rabid ex girlfriends on her behalf via certified letter and demanding they cease the harassmemt or they'll wish they would slip into a coma. It's what I do, it's what I'm good at. Where I can pound my chest and claim I've chopped my way through the brush for others to go fourth in peace there are others who can make the same claim in some other area where I can go without worry. It's not a matter of will power or trying harder.



exactly! thats exactly why those of us who can learn and use the skills and are the type to use them should. for people like her that we love and want to protect. i'm not justifying abusers at all. what i'm saying is that certain traits we have embolden them. your sister has those traits. she is a beautiful person but she is also an easy target. even you recognized that. so if she isn't the type of person who is able to deal with the assholes in life rest of us can look to that. we are sort of like her military. all i'm saying if that especially for the younger ones --there are things that can be done. if you are not the type who can its ok. there are other people to take up the slack. but in order to take up the slack we need skills. and even though your sister is not the type who could do those things that might help her it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of others who could. things that fall flat for her, since it might be against her character, could really work wonders for someone else. but we have to tell them that it can be done so they'll have the strength and the courage to try. i don't really think i have the lock on being able to manage things. i think its my age experience and the great fortune to meet and be helped by people who had the ability to manage people in their lives and have been good enough to share things with me. and most of all they've concentrated on what i could do rather than what i couldn't.


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## superodalisque (May 28, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> I don't think that she's implying we've asked to be abused, only that a good defense is the best offense (to coin a slightly overused phrase ).
> 
> Still, I think that a point is being missed. Most of the people who have posted in this thread aren't cringing, vulnerable wallflowers. I'm not, and I never was. I'm well-educated, articulate, and I present myself authoritatively. To some extent, I always have.
> 
> ...



i admit that! in fact i support that. i almost never have to confront anyone. the skills i'm talking about using are non-confrontational anyway. those things you mentioned earlier as insensitivity and the ignorance people exhibit are things i don't even pay attention to anymore at all. in fact when i was still at home last week i had to concentrate very hard to even notice any of that stuff. maybe thats why i don't feel it. if you are overly sensitive to them it seems to add fuel to the fire. it makes someone weak feel powerful if they can ruin your day and control you with such a small act. thats why they do it. and a lot of the time we fall into the trap. i'm not talking about confrontation i'm talking about management. as you said you project a certain authority, you pick your battles. you are showing the skills you have learned in terms of managing the situation. i'm talking about people who've had a very hard time managing things. there are skills that a lot of people know and use to reduce that kind of stress in their life.


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## olwen (May 28, 2008)

superodalisque said:


> i admit that! in fact i support that. i almost never have to confront anyone. the skills i'm talking about using are non-confrontational anyway. those things you mentioned earlier as insensitivity and the ignorance people exhibit are things i don't even pay attention to anymore at all. in fact when i was still at home last week i had to concentrate very hard to even notice any of that stuff. maybe thats why i don't feel it. if you are overly sensitive to them it seems to add fuel to the fire. it makes someone weak feel powerful if they can ruin your day and control you with such a small act. thats why they do it. and a lot of the time we fall into the trap. i'm not talking about confrontation i'm talking about management. as you said you project a certain authority, you pick your battles. you are showing the skills you have learned in terms of managing the situation. i'm talking about people who've had a very hard time managing things. there are skills that a lot of people know and use to reduce that kind of stress in their life.



This statement here affirms that we do not in fact draw abuse. It just happens to us sometimes no matter what we do.

Tho we may not always be able to control how people treat us, we can control how we react to that treatment. We can choose to internalize such abuse or we can choose to generally ignore it. This is not to say that we should stick our heads in the sand however, and not stand up for ourselves. We should. But not having the inner resources to do so doesn't mean that we deserve to be treated unfairly; it only makes the totality of all the experiences all the more difficult to deal with. But that's okay. Those of us who do pull our heads out of the sand can be examples to those who feel it when they get kicked in the ass. Maybe they'll pull their heads out of the sand long enough to see what's going on and then hopefully they'd see the light.


....So I guess that is maybe all we need to do after all. If we challenge "common sense" notions about fat people others will start to listen. That would be us using our own voices, loud and often. We insist on taking part in that dialog whether authority figures who say other wise like it or not. We just refuse to be dismissed....


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## LisaInNC (Jun 2, 2008)

Felecia, I think that people sense insecurities and go for the person least likely to defend themselves. However, this has never happened to me. Could be because of the HUGE knife I carry on my side.


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## superodalisque (Jun 17, 2008)

as usual Saucy explained things much better and in a much more palatable way than i EVER could:

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42321


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## Tracy (Jun 18, 2008)

olwen said:


> This statement here affirms that we do not in fact draw abuse. It just happens to us sometimes no matter what we do.
> 
> Tho we may not always be able to control how people treat us, we can control how we react to that treatment. We can choose to internalize such abuse or we can choose to generally ignore it. This is not to say that we should stick our heads in the sand however, and not stand up for ourselves. We should. But not having the inner resources to do so doesn't mean that we deserve to be treated unfairly; it only makes the totality of all the experiences all the more difficult to deal with. But that's okay. Those of us who do pull our heads out of the sand can be examples to those who feel it when they get kicked in the ass. Maybe they'll pull their heads out of the sand long enough to see what's going on and then hopefully they'd see the light.
> 
> ...



I agree with this 100%. I have encountered ugly words about my size from time to time but the month of June has been a month to remember. Last week while I was on vacation with my family at the Outer Banks I was riding my bycycle up and down the street around sunset when 4 children (oldest one was maybe 10) were playing in a yard across the street. Now mind you I was minding my own business not bothering anyone when these children started yelling and calling me bad names and saying very rude things to me about my weight. At one point I stopped and ask the children if they had never been taught that it is not nice to make fun of people. They just kept saying their hurtful words so I ended up going inside until their parents took them in for the night. I started to ask them to go get their parents but I thought if the children were like that, that they learned it from somewhere (maybe the parents). It is so sad that society automatically assumes because you are a large person that you have poor eating habits. I can still hear the children saying "hey fat lady did you know if you eat chocolate bars they make you skinny?"


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## Plainguy (Jun 21, 2008)

I always find it interesting how so many people feel "safe" making comments about someone who is fat! While safe is not exactly what I mean. . It does seem to be how they act. It's like "Hey, it's YOUR fault your that way so I have a free hand to say or think whatever I like". 

Now whether that's how they truly feel or not is pure conjecture, but it seems that way to me. Now I personally don't get this kind of abuse, I'm overweight, but for some reason guys don't seem to get the flak women do (up to a point), yet another thing I'll never understand. . But that's for another thread. . 

Perhaps it's even the frustration with life itself. . So many people are unhappy these days, and are willing to vent towards others. You know, misery loves company. . All I know is I don't have all the answers, but I'm very defensive for my friends. . So I take care as to be "tactful" when making responses. . I've blathered enough. .


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 21, 2008)

Plainguy said:


> I always find it interesting how so many people feel "safe" making comments about someone who is fat! While safe is not exactly what I mean. . It does seem to be how they act. It's like "Hey, it's YOUR fault your that way so I have a free hand to say or think whatever I like".
> 
> Now whether that's how they truly feel or not is pure conjecture, but it seems that way to me. * Now I personally don't get this kind of abuse, I'm overweight, but for some reason guys don't seem to get the flak women do (up to a point), yet another thing I'll never understand. . But that's for another thread. .
> *
> Perhaps it's even the frustration with life itself. . So many people are unhappy these days, and are willing to vent towards others. You know, misery loves company. . All I know is I don't have all the answers, but I'm very defensive for my friends. . So I take care as to be "tactful" when making responses. . I've blathered enough. .




Personally, I think it's because people fear a big man on some level...they don't expect a woman to bitch slap them like they deserve


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## olwen (Jun 23, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Plainguy View Post
> I always find it interesting how so many people feel "safe" making comments about someone who is fat! While safe is not exactly what I mean. . It does seem to be how they act. It's like "Hey, it's YOUR fault your that way so I have a free hand to say or think whatever I like".
> 
> ...





Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Personally, I think it's because people fear a big man on some level...they don't expect a woman to bitch slap them like they deserve




I wish I had this book here to quote from - it's called Obesity Surgery: Stories of Altered Lives. In it the men and women who have undergone gastric bypass surgery talk about how their lives changed since they were fat. The doctors who interviewed the patients also observed that the men didn't have to deal with as much as the women, and that one of the men (He was I think 400+lbs at his biggest) observed that after he lost weight people were nicer to him and more relaxed around him. They were more personable to him and he was more personable to them. He wasn't sure if it was because people no longer _feared _him because of his size or if it was because they were just simply grossed out by his former size and no longer, or if it was because he was meaner to people (he says he was mean to protect his ego) when he was fat, or all of those reasons. 

If I remember correctly the men in general noticed a huge difference in the way _they related_ to other people after they lost weight rather than the other way around. But in general for the men, the biggest changes came in the workplace. A few saw how much they were being discriminated against as fat men. A few were shocked by the disparity while others were not.

The authors also speculated as to why the men didn't have as tough a time as the women (who suddenly had to deal with unwanted sexual advances in addition to workplace and family issues) and wondered if it was simply for the fact that they were men and as such didn't have to deal with the things women did. But they didn't spend much time on that issue because they felt ill-equipped to discuss it or that it was a topic for another study.


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