# Could you live in a messy or dirty house?



## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

Don't know if this has been discussed. Could you live in a messy or dirty house? A friend and I went to collect another friend at her house as we were going out for the night together. I was quite frankly shocked with the state of her house. There was rubbish all over the place, ie food wrappers on the floor in the loungeroom, dirty clothes dumped on the floor in her bedroom, Plates and bowls with old food on them in the kitchen. Just crap everywhere.
To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet. I was shocked that anybody could live like this. How is this possible? Is it judgemental to feel sickened by this? I do feel sickened by this, I can't help it. 
I could not live like that, no way. How do you help a person to change this behaviour also?
What to do? Love the person can't handle the house.
Susannah


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## DebbieBBW (Oct 24, 2007)

I personally could not live like that and I do not think there is anything wrong with it making you sick. It is really very gross and unhealthy. I for one am not the neatest person that I know but the things you mentioned are WAY overboard. I don't have any pets either, but even if I did I could not stand to let thing get so out of hand that the instant I open my door people know just by the smell that I have them.

I know someone who lives close to what you are talking about and I have been around her and noticed her clothes smelling like cat piss. That is how overpowering the smell of it is in her house. I don't know how she stands it, but I do my very best to avoid going to her house at all.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Luckily, you don't have to live like that. Some people do. It's rarely a case of being lazy--unless your friend lies around all day with no job doing nothing, and uses a diaper to pee, she's probably not lazy enough for it to result in such a filthy house. She might be a hoarder, which is an actual psychological condition, and one which, if she has it, she knows far more about than anyone who doesn't have it.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

She doesn't have any mental health issues at all. She is just bone bloody lazy to clean up after herself. It is one thing to have a few dishes soaking in the sink to wash later like after work etc, but a whole other thing to live in such squalor.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> She doesn't have any mental health issues at all. She is just bone bloody lazy to clean up after herself. It is one thing to have a few dishes soaking in the sink to wash later like after work etc, but a whole other thing to live in such squalor.



well, allrighty then. 

i guess you know best, susannah.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

Jes said:


> well, allrighty then.
> 
> i guess you know best, susannah.



Jes. You know what I am worried that she will get sick or something. Like I said I love her, just can't stand this destructive behaviour. Sometimes the cliched tough love is required. What can you do?


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Jes. You know what I am worried that she will get sick or something. Like I said I love her, just can't stand this destructive behaviour. Sometimes the cliched tough love is required. What can you do?



like i said, susannah, i'm sure you know best.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

Jes said:


> like i said, susannah, i'm sure you know best.



It is not a case of me knowing best, but can I sit back and watch a mate live like that? Would I be a friend if I had no concern whatsoever? It is not good for your health.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 24, 2007)

It doesn't sound like this is a hoarder, just from what very limited information we have. But if she's allowed cat feces & urine to stay on the carpet, my guess is that there are some other issues going on & that she's not just lazy. People have differing standards for cleanliness, but this goes beyond the pale. My very sincere advise to you, Susannah, is to just let your friend be. You cannot change her or motivate her into keeping her home up to a certain standard of cleanliness.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Right. I'm sure it's never once occured to your friend that shit on the floor is not healthy or normal. Maybe she thinks that there should be shit in her car. Or maybe there's shit at her office, right on her desk chair. Or maybe she thinks it's normal to be covered in shit all the time. Maybe she just needs you to point out that she's wrong about that, b/c that's never crossed her mind.

Or is it possible that something else is going on here, Susannah? Are you familiar with the psychological condition known as hoarding? I don't know that she has it, of course, but what you've described sounds pretty typical for the behavior. If she has it, then telling her to 'just clean up' will do nothing.

You made a post asking for advice. Now I see that you don't really want advice, because your agenda is set. That's absolutely fine. But I'm going to suggest that asking us for advice, when you're really just venting and telling us what you plan to do (tell her she's very messy and she needs to clean up), is perhaps not the best way of going about framing the issue and making the post. In asking for advice and rejecting the advice you get, you've tied our hands. I'm not sure why you came to a discussion board to ask us what we thought if you already know what you think and plan to do just exactly what you planned to do before you posted the message.

And for good measure, I'm going to include this blurb from an article in the Environmental Health Journal, b/c I see similarities between what it's discussion and the description you gave us in your first message:

EHJ February 2005, pages 12-14 

Hoarding is linked to mental health problems. Tina Bexson explores the issues surrounding the condition 

Hoarding. It's the new curse of the millennium, and involves not only old newspapers, general rubbish, items of food, and general household rubbish, but stray animals, and even faeces. It can cause influxes of pests, especially rats, and create quite horrendous smells. 

So: 
rubbish. Check.
food items. Check.
cat faeces. Check.

I'll leave it there. You asked for advice, my advice clearly isn't doing it for you, and so I hope you find a way to do what it is that you plan to do.


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## AnnMarie (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> It is not a case of me knowing best, but can I sit back and watch a mate live like that? Would I be a friend if I had no concern whatsoever? It is not good for your health.



Right, because I'm sure she has no idea her place is a mess, she just needs someone to clue her in? Just like al those "well-meaning" people who take it upon themselves to "help" their fat friends by sitting down and telling them they're fat. Super helpful, we all love people getting involved in our personal issues, especially when they're obvious to us. 

I agree with Traci, leave her alone, and if you don't like her home then don't head back there. I agree it sounds somewhat overboard, but it's not your place to judge her or try to save her from herself.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

TraciJo67 said:


> It doesn't sound like this is a hoarder, just from what very limited information we have. But if she's allowed cat feces & urine to stay on the carpet, my guess is that there are some other issues going on & that she's not just lazy. People have differing standards for cleanliness, but this goes beyond the pale. My very sincere advise to you, Susannah, is to just let your friend be. You cannot change her or motivate her into keeping her home up to a certain standard of cleanliness.



That is true enough I guess. I don't know. I am a bit anal about this kind of stuff I guess.
Another issue is could you feel comfortable having a man or company in general at your home, when it is in such a state? I couldn't. But maybe I just need to not go there.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

AnnMarie said:


> Right, because I'm sure she has no idea her place is a mess, she just needs someone to clue her in? Just like al those "well-meaning" people who take it upon themselves to "help" their fat friends by sitting down and telling them they're fat. Super helpful, we all love people getting involved in our personal issues, especially when they're obvious to us.
> 
> I agree with Traci, leave her alone, and if you don't like her home then don't head back there. I agree it sounds somewhat overboard, but it's not your place to judge her or try to save her from herself.



i thought the same. 'honey, don't you know you're a fat pig??!' but I wasn't going to say it b/c while i'm snarky this morning, i'm trying to err on the side of behaving. but i'm not feelin' it, yo.


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## Still a Skye fan (Oct 24, 2007)

Well, I'm a bachelor, so I don't mind a certain amount of messiness.

I don't own a pet because I'm not home enough to properly care for one, so I don't have the pet waste thing going on.

I wash dishes when the drainer gets full.

Garbage goes out once a week for garbage day.

I clean/vacuum/dust when I feel like it. If I have company staying over, then I give my house a good cleaning...otherwise, it's not a big deal with me.

I was raised by a neatfreak mother so this is my way of getting even.

My house doesn't smell, I don't live in squalor, I just enjoy a nice amount of clutter and messiness. Yes, I know where everything is, too.


Dennis


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## Big_jim (Oct 24, 2007)

Still a Skye fan said:


> Well, I'm a bachelor, so I don't mind a certain amount of messiness.
> 
> I don't own a pet because I'm not home enough to properly care for one, so I don't have the pet waste thing going on.
> 
> ...



Im with Dennis!
Too clean and I lose everything!


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## chocolate desire (Oct 24, 2007)

They show people like that on Oprah and was also a problem one of the women had on the Starting Over house one time. Most of the time it is not laziness but maybe depression or as Jes said an mental thing.
With 3 teens at home my house would never make Home and Gardens but I found this site to help.. Flylady.net.... maybe you can pass it along. 
I truly hope if this is a real good friend you wont mention her house in such a way that it will insult her or you might just lose a friend.
Sexy Chia has spoken.

P:S maybe you can invite her over in time to watch the lifetime show How Clean Is your House.
just browse channels and when you see it on say Oh I love this show these women are soo funny. With anyluck she will take the hint.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 24, 2007)

chocolate desire said:


> They show people like that on Oprah and was also a problem one of the women had on the Starting Over house one time. Most of the time it is not laziness but maybe depression or as Jes said an mental thing.
> With 3 teens at home my house would never make Home and Gardens but I found this site to help.. Flylady.net.... maybe you can pass it along.
> I truly hope if this is a real good friend you wont mention her house in such a way that it will insult her or you might just lose a friend.
> Sexy Chia has spoken.
> ...



I don't think that she should mention it at all, or even hint at it. Her friend surely already knows that there is a problem. If I were in Susannah's position, I'd just focus on being a kind, supportive friend. If the day ever arrived that I was asked for advice, I would then provide the kind of information you've highlighted above, in a very matter-of-fact, non-judgmental way.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

Look I would never want to hurt her at all. It is concern about her health and her as a friend that drives me to feel this way. Yes I can't handle that kind of squalor, I am not a demon because I feel that way.
Maybe I just need to leave it alone.


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## chocolate desire (Oct 24, 2007)

You could be very right Traci, I was just thinking along the lines that she don't know..I know your saying how can one not know there is cat doo on the carpet and you might be right but if someone is used to it then to them it seems normal after awhile.Just like I did not realize just how FAT I truly was until I stepped on a scale.(I had not been on one in two years). I thought because my clothes still fit I was still the same size. Who knew old worn out clothes grows with you to a certain point. I know I was fat but not THAT fat. maybe she knows she is messy but not that messy.


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## chocolate desire (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Look I would never want to hurt her at all. It is concern about her health and her as a friend that drives me to feel this way. Yes I can't handle that kind of squalor, I am not a demon because I feel that way.
> Maybe I just need to leave it alone.



Susannah saying you are concerned about her health is like Dr Phil saying he is concerned about mine.I dont think she got this messy overnight so if she is healthy now she might continue to stay that way. 
Still love ya though girl just do me a favor and let me know when your comming over so i can tidy up a bit LOL.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Look I would never want to hurt her at all. It is concern about her health and her as a friend that drives me to feel this way. Yes I can't handle that kind of squalor, I am not a demon because I feel that way.
> Maybe I just need to leave it alone.



Sigh. Who says that you're a demon, Susannah? You asked for some opinions, and you got them. And frankly, you got some really excellent advise from people who invested time and energy in providing it. I don't think that one person here has implied that you are a bad person for feeling the way that you do.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

chocolate desire said:


> Susannah saying you are concerned about her health is like Dr Phil saying he is concerned about mine.I dont think she got this messy overnight so if she is healthy now she might continue to stay that way.
> Still love ya though girl just do me a favor and let me know when your comming over so i can tidy up a bit LOL.



Choccie I am not talking about average untidyness around the home that is cleaned up in five seconds flat. I am talking feaces and mould on food that could breed all manner of bacteria etc etc, making it a very real health concern.
I am not linking being fat with living in such a state either. No connection.
Good on ya Renee meanwhile.


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## Still a Skye fan (Oct 24, 2007)

Big_jim said:


> Im with Dennis!
> Too clean and I lose everything!




Thanks, Jim!


Dennis


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## Mathias (Oct 24, 2007)

My room is clean. I'm kind of a neat freak. (I have my mom to thank for that) I'll usually not empty my trash as often as I should or not make my bed but other than that, If my room isn't precisly organized I'll go crazy.


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## Ernest Nagel (Oct 24, 2007)

Jes said:


> Right. I'm sure it's never once occured to your friend that shit on the floor is not healthy or normal. Maybe she thinks that there should be shit in her car. Or maybe there's shit at her office, right on her desk chair. Or maybe she thinks it's normal to be covered in shit all the time. Maybe she just needs you to point out that she's wrong about that, b/c that's never crossed her mind.
> 
> Or is it possible that something else is going on here, Susannah? Are you familiar with the psychological condition known as hoarding? I don't know that she has it, of course, but what you've described sounds pretty typical for the behavior. If she has it, then telling her to 'just clean up' will do nothing.
> 
> ...



Okay, Jes, you are brilliant, right and EVER so effing sexy, per usual but calling caca "faeces"?!? WTF!?! It's crap, doody, shite, stanky poo-poo, but "faeces"? That's just so effing clinical! ...and gay (or at least British, not sure?) And just cuz I SO love capitulation (sounds like copulation, fellatio and let's throw in cunnilingus, just for good measure, had a love child) I am and ever will be WRONG! And you have an amazing ass!


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Ernest Nagel said:


> Okay, Jes, you are brilliant, right and EVER so effing sexy, per usual but calling caca "faeces"?!? WTF!?! It's crap, doody, shite, stanky poo-poo, but "faeces"? That's just so effing clinical! ...and gay (or at least British, not sure?) And just cuz I SO love capitulation (sounds like copulation, fellatio and let's throw in cunnilingus, just for good measure, had a love child) I am and ever will be WRONG! And you have an amazing ass!



all very true, ernest. all very true. you'll notice i did call it shit when *I* was doing the writing. But for Susannah's sake, and the sake of referring to the article correctly, I used the non-Americanized term.

love,
canned ham.


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## BBWQueen33 (Oct 24, 2007)

Definately couldn't live like that. I have clutter, I won't deny that, but nothing more than that. Someone coming into my home might think it a mess, but I know exactly where I've piled that light bill I'm looking for


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## OfftoOtherPlaces (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Could you live in a messy or dirty house?



No.



Ernest Nagel said:


> Okay, Jes, you are brilliant, right and EVER so effing sexy, per usual but calling caca "faeces"?!? WTF!?! It's crap, doody, shite, stanky poo-poo, but "faeces"? That's just so effing clinical! ...and gay (or at least British, not sure?) And just cuz I SO love capitulation (sounds like copulation, fellatio and let's throw in cunnilingus, just for good measure, had a love child) I am and ever will be WRONG! And you have an amazing ass!



hurr hurr faeces are GAY.

GAY GAY GAY.

*hurls chair across room*


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah - I'm gonna agree with Jes here - this is not simply a matter of her not wanting to clean, this sounds much more serious. As her friend maybe you could have a heart to heart with her in a loving kind way. I think she might need some help but judging her isn't going to help. I am concerned about her health but if she refuses help - love her anyway.


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## AnnMarie (Oct 24, 2007)

Jes said:


> i thought the same. 'honey, don't you know you're a fat pig??!' but I wasn't going to say it b/c while i'm snarky this morning, i'm trying to err on the side of behaving. but i'm not feelin' it, yo.



I had no intention of misbehaving, but it read to me exactly like a post on some health board about "my poor fat friend, I must intervene" and I just had to spell it out that way to demonstrate how intrusive that type of thought pattern is. 

I know super clean people and complete slobs. I love them all, and their housekeeping or lack thereof is completely their business. 

And Susannah, no one saiid you were bad, as Traci said...you asked us, we answered. We can agree to disagree and not have if be dramatic.


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## mimosa (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah, 

I know your heart is in the right place. You are a good person and a very caring friend. I think that If I had a problem, I would want for you to gently talk to me about it. (THAT'S JUST ME!) BUt I am the type that would be like...........then like.........but then I would realize you were right after a day of processing it. 

I NEVER had my place to be as messy as your friend's. But I had to babysit a new born baby right after my son was born. My place was a little messy. My friend told me I should try a little harder to clean it up. I was so tired! I had to care for two new born babies. I didn't even have time to eat! I would eat cold cereal and even lost weight. Those babies kept me VERY BUSY. But..I am glad she told me. I did make more of an effort. It made a big diffrence.
I am not saying you should tell her. This is just my story. And I wanted to show you my support, my dear friend.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

AnnMarie said:


> I had no intention of misbehaving, but it read to me exactly like a post on some health board about "my poor fat friend, I must intervene" and I just had to spell it out that way to demonstrate how intrusive that type of thought pattern is.
> 
> I know super clean people and complete slobs. I love them all, and their housekeeping or lack thereof is completely their business.
> 
> And Susannah, no one saiid you were bad, as Traci said...you asked us, we answered. We can agree to disagree and not have if be dramatic.



no, no, *I* would be misbehaving if I'd said anything. I am naughty.


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## Jane (Oct 24, 2007)

The state of her house sounds like she may be suffering from depression to me.

I'm not a psychiatrist, nor do I play one on TV.


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## T_Devil (Oct 24, 2007)

Is there a good answer to this question?

It just seems like so much loaded bullshit.

If you are content in living in a messy house, you are a diseased, lazy pig.
If you are NOT content in living in a messy house, you are a germ-a-phobe freak with mental issues.

I decline to answer the question on the grounds that my answer would be unsatisfactory.

_*Lights self on fire and jumps out window._


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 24, 2007)

I have two jobs and I travel A LOT. I don't have feces and stuff like that but I've got plenty of dishes in the sink and clothes lying around. I'm up at 4am and don't get home till 10:30, 11:00 at night some times. I have enough time to eat, strip, sleep and that''s all. Before long it builds up and the place is a disaster. It takes a massive effort to clean, reorganize, do laundry, etc. and it all becomes so overwhelming. I have friends and we all have the same problem. We've decided not to beat ourselves up about it, it just is what it is. Every once in a while we all plan to go to one of our apartments, order Chinese and we spend the whole day cleaning. We clean the fridge, the dishes, the linens, the bathroom, throw out old magazines, expired medications, and make a list of what needs to be replaced - leave it on the fridge. Till then, I make my way along the best way I can.

I'm with the other ladies Susannah. Best to stay out of it for all the reasons already mentioned. However, you know your friend better than we do. If you feel close enough to express your concern don't do it unless you're willing to roll up your sleeves, put on your hip boots and get in there and help her. Either that or you've got the scratch to offer to hire her a maid. Rare does anybody want to live in squalor. Obviously the problem is much bigger than her and lecturing isn't going to minimize the situation or endear her to you at all.


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## ashmamma84 (Oct 24, 2007)

Hmmm...I don't know -- I have a dear friend that copes with depression and when her episodes are very very bad, she tends to keep a very dirty home. It got to the point where you really couldn't see the floor...and yes, I did talk to her about; no, I didn't confront her, but I asked her if things were okay and if they weren't that whenever, if ever, she felt comfortable she could talk to me...and she did open up. She told me that some times it just gets really bad and she doesn't clean, herself or her home like she is supposed to. At first she was a bit uneasy, and then she thanked me for caring about her...I think it's all in delivery; you can get your point across without being hurtful or demeaning. I think sometimes we are so into being independent and wanting everyone to mind their own business, that it can backfire and really hurt us. If I was going through a thing/an episode/whatever, I would want a support system and if it is depression, having dealt with it myself; the last thing I want or need is friends or family saying well...it's not my place to say anything or just let her work things out by herself. Sometimes we NEED other people; sometimes we are in so deep we don't know that something is really wrong...and what is wrong with someone trying to help?

I'm not saying that your situation is the same, Susannah, but that is my experience with a friend who had a similiar thing going on...and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you are going to lecture her, are you? Because I think that's what some might be up in arms about -- to me, there's nothing wrong with saying you are noticing a difference (as I did with my friend), and you want to help if possible...isn't that what friends are for in the first place? 

Maybe I'm missing something...


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## Jane (Oct 24, 2007)

When my son was very small my aunt sat me down for a talk.

She told me that throughout her children's childhood she had kept an immaculate house, and that her children had paid for it by missing time with her. She told me to blow off housework to spend time with my son. Since that is how I tended to live anyway, I hugged her and promised.

My house has been a full blown disaster area at times. (Okay, no feces or such, but pretty bad) Now that he's grown, my house is pretty clean, but not to the point that I don't have to pick up a little if I know people are coming over. However it's not dirty to the point that it bothers me if they just stop by.

I like that happy medium. I also enjoy my time of NOT doing housework.


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## LJ Rock (Oct 24, 2007)

Okay, well I will be the firs to admit that I am no _neat freak_. I try to keep my place pretty clean, most especially the kitchen and the bathroom... those are definitely the priorities as far as house cleaning goes. My room gets cluttered, laundry and piles of bills and junk mail about. And I need to be more diligent about dusting! Especially considering I have pretty nasty allergies! 

Okay, so those are my personal house-keeping confessions. lol Now on to the issue at hand.... 

I have known people like this, these so-called "hoarders." Certainly there are different degrees of severity to this problem, and there is a difference between just being a bit disorganized or being a pack-rat, and just having a complete and reckless disregard for sanitation and good hygiene. As I said before, I am no neat freak and I can deal with a little bit of clutter without totally freaking out (and I suppose everyone's opinion on what "a bit of clutter" is will differ from everyone else's.) But in the case of the person that Susannah has described, well I am afraid that is just more that I could possibly tolerate! 

I think the advice that most people here have given is pretty sound and sensible: This person is more than likely aware of her problem, and will deal with it in their own way when they are ready. Coming out and confronting them about it, regardless of whatever good intentions there may be, may run the risk of sounding judgmental and damning and she may end up feeling alienated. Perhaps it is best to wait until she asks for your help and/or advice before you volunteer it. 

However, I think if it were me, it would largely depend on just how long I've known this person and how close of a friend I really felt that they were. If it were just someone I considered a casual friend or someone I barely knew... or even if I knew them well and I liked them a good deal, I would still probably just mind my own business, avoid visiting their home as much as possible and only offer my opinions if asked. But... if it were one of my good good good homies from back in the diz-ay, and I saw that they were really struggling with something like this... I would say something. I think I'd have to, how could I not? 

I'd just have to be like, "Dude... you know I love you, but what is up with your crib? It's a frickin' mess! What's up, man? You wanna talk about it?" 

I dunno, maybe that's just me. And granted, the male perspective on this is probably going to be a lot different from most females perspectives on this issue anyways. So, I could be way off... but that's would I would say anyhow.


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## mossystate (Oct 24, 2007)

Holy crap. I moved to this new place back in the last week of May. If People saw my bedroom, they would wonder where I was hiding the bodies. It looks like 3 rather large bombs went off in it. 

I have no cat shit on my floors. I have no crawling food in the refrigerator. My carpet is in good shape and yet, if I took some pictures of this place as it is at the moment, there would be a few..whoas.. from the peanut gallery.

There are times that I work on the small piles of stuff, and while it feel good to do it, I will never be a ' not a thing out of place '..person.

Now, there was a time when I was in my 20's when I lived in a mess. It was not like something you see on a tv program ( and thinking back on it, was not all that bad ..it was more what it was doing to other aspects of my life) on such an issue, but I know that I was quite depressed and after a while, you don't see what is around you. That might not make sense to some people, but it's true.

This woman knows, maybe not on your level and how you are seeing her house, that something is wrong. Tune into what she says to you. If you see an honest opening, maybe you can follow her lead. I would not spring television shows on her or thrust cleaning products in her hands. I think she knows where to buy such things. 

Also, step back and ask yourself why you want something different for her. Might be more about you than it is about her. I would hope she reaches out to a mental health professional, as ' friends ' rarely do or can do more than make a person feel totally inadequate, in a situation like this.

And, if she does reach out to the appropriate people, let's remember that most of us have ' dirty houses '. If this friend does get help, she might decide she will guide you in areas she thinks you need work..all out of ' concern '...so, be prepared for that.


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## LJ Rock (Oct 24, 2007)

ashmamma84 said:


> Hmmm...I don't know -- I have a dear friend that copes with depression and when her episodes are very very bad, she tends to keep a very dirty home. It got to the point where you really couldn't see the floor...and yes, I did talk to her about; no, I didn't confront her, but I asked her if things were okay and if they weren't that whenever, if ever, she felt comfortable she could talk to me...and she did open up. She told me that some times it just gets really bad and she doesn't clean, herself or her home like she is supposed to. At first she was a bit uneasy, and then she thanked me for caring about her...I think it's all in delivery; you can get your point across without being hurtful or demeaning. I think sometimes we are so into being independent and wanting everyone to mind their own business, that it can backfire and really hurt us. If I was going through a thing/an episode/whatever, I would want a support system and if it is depression, having dealt with it myself; the last thing I want or need is friends or family saying well...it's not my place to say anything or just let her work things out by herself. Sometimes we NEED other people; sometimes we are in so deep we don't know that something is really wrong...and what is wrong with someone trying to help?
> 
> I'm not saying that your situation is the same, Susannah, but that is my experience with a friend who had a similiar thing going on...and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you are going to lecture her, are you? Because I think that's what some might be up in arms about -- to me, there's nothing wrong with saying you are noticing a difference (as I did with my friend), and you want to help if possible...isn't that what friends are for in the first place?
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something...



Good point, Ash... it's important to let the people you care about know that you care about them and their feelings more than you care about their outward appearances.


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## ripley (Oct 24, 2007)

If you love your friend, keep your mouth shut. Period. If she wants your help she will ask for it.


I think this has more to do with your disgust and amazement that anyone lives like she does than with your concern over mold and germs. Hell, living in that environment she probably has an iron immune system.


Her house isn't your concern. If you love her, you accept her as is with no caveats. Don't like her housekeeping? Don't go there. Can you be friends with someone, and treat them with respect, if they "live in squalor"? That's the real question. Whether it's laziness, hoarding, or a love of feces (or faeces ), it's none of your business.


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## mossystate (Oct 24, 2007)

Ripley.....yup..yup...you cut to the chase.

If you cannot be around the woman without treating her as just another friend you love to be around...don't be around her. Your ' concern ' will color every outing you have with her.

She might depend on very small joys. 

She is not a carnival attraction. Ripley, you nailed that one.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

LJ Rock said:


> I'd just have to be like, "Dude... you know I love you, but what is up with your crib? It's a frickin' mess! What's up, man? You wanna talk about it?"
> 
> .



ouch!

i think i'm glad i'm not a man.


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## LJ Rock (Oct 24, 2007)

Jes said:


> ouch!
> 
> i think i'm glad i'm not a man.



let me tell you... it's not as easy as it looks.


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## TallFatSue (Oct 24, 2007)

I need to have a nice clean house, everything in its proper place. Luckily my husband is even more of a neat freak than I am, so I'm glad to let him do the housecleaning. "Gee, Art, I'm too fat to scrub the bathtub." "That's okay, Sue, I'll do it!" Ain't no way I'm letting him do the laundry, though. 

I agree that slovenliness could be due to laziness, or it could also be an eccentricity or a psychological condition. So is the other extreme. I believe in cleanliness, but my sister-in-law is so obsessed with spotlessness that I'm surprised she doesn't have velvet museum ropes in her house. When Art & I visit my brother and his wife, she makes us take off our shoes, which is kinda understandable I guess, but then she frets about my size 13 bare feet stomping up her pristine carpet. Those visits used to make me nervous, because my sister-in-law is a major fatphobe and made me feel like a heifer in a china shop. Now I regard it as entertaining to watch her hold her breath when I sit somewhere, like she's afraid I'll break all her furniture. Once a chair made a loud squeak when I settled into it (no structural damage, it just slipped a tiny bit on the floor), and she almost had a conniption fit. Maybe S-I-L should buy chairs designed to hold people, not the trendy stuff just for show. She keeps her family on a short leash too, but that's a whole 'nother story.


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## Emma (Oct 24, 2007)

My house is messy half the time and tidy the other half lol. I live with two others adults that don't seem to like cleaning at all so most of the time it's down to me. However I make them do the pots and take the bins out because I can't deal with that. Yuck.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 24, 2007)

Wayne and I are both packrats and both not good at keeping things neat. I say so what. It's our home we live the way we want. However - being messy does not equal dirty. The kitchen and bathroom are clean as is the cat box.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

Thanks all for the input. It may be best to not say anything at this stage to her. I would never say anything in a nasty way anyway, at the end of the day she is my friend and my heart is in the right place where she is concerned.
But I will think about what you have all said here to be sure.
Shosh


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## HottiMegan (Oct 24, 2007)

My apartment is a mess. No feces or trash on the floor. But dealing with a bit of depression right now and having to keep up with a husband who doesnt seem to know dirty clothes dont go where you were standing when you took them off and a four year old who doesnt realize taht his toys belong in his play room, not the living room,, it's hard to keep it clean in here. I clean at least an hour a day and by the end of the day it's a mess again. I was sick last week and boy you should see the place when i went for 4 days without cleaning! 
I would prefer to live in a super clean space but when you have little to no help in keepign up with 3 slobs it gets overwhelming sometimes. (especially when you'd rather just stay in bed reading or watching tv)


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## HottiMegan (Oct 24, 2007)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Wayne and I are both packrats and both not good at keeping things neat. I say so what. It's our home we live the way we want. However - being messy does not equal dirty. The kitchen and bathroom are clean as is the cat box.



That would probably categorize us. We have a hard time throwing stuff out. Not to the point of hoarding. (i know a hoarder and they nearly got evicted by the fire marshal) Ours is a case of too much crap for a 2 bedroom apartment. We're both in a spring cleaning type of mood to get rid of a bunch of stuff. I have free-cycled about 10 things in the last couple months.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 24, 2007)

FYI - when you get a bigger place you will get more stuff to fill it up! LOL




HottiMegan said:


> That would probably categorize us. We have a hard time throwing stuff out. Not to the point of hoarding. (i know a hoarder and they nearly got evicted by the fire marshal) Ours is a case of too much crap for a 2 bedroom apartment. We're both in a spring cleaning type of mood to get rid of a bunch of stuff. I have free-cycled about 10 things in the last couple months.


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## Jane (Oct 24, 2007)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> FYI - when you get a bigger place you will get more stuff to fill it up! LOL



Isn't that George Carlin's rule? 

And yes, you do.


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> The kitchen and bathroom are clean as is the cat box.



yes, but does the cat wipe?

HA! JUST AS I THOUGHT.


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## Tina (Oct 24, 2007)

Especially when you get into the arena of animal urine and feces, that's more than I could live with personally. I also knew a woman who was so obsessively clean that she never went anywhere or did anything that wasn't shopping, appointments, etc. A friend and I would go over and ask her to come join us and she'd say she had to clean the house. You could perform surgery in any room of her home without fear it was so spotlessly clean. Either end of the spectrum is problematic, I think.


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## Shosh (Oct 24, 2007)

Tina said:


> Especially when you get into the arena of animal urine and feces, that's more than I could live with personally. I also knew a woman who was so obsessively clean that she never went anywhere or did anything that wasn't shopping, appointments, etc. A friend and I would go over and ask her to come join us and she'd say she had to clean the house. You could perform surgery in any room of her home without fear it was so spotlessly clean. Either end of the spectrum is problematic, I think.



Yes. I think the hardest thing for me to deal with here is the animal urine and feces no doubt. I just cant understand how one could become used to that. I guess it is also not good to be too obsessively clean also.
Look I still do not know what to do exactly.


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## Chimpi (Oct 24, 2007)

My apartment is very dirty.
I do not own pets. If I did own pets, there would never be urine or feces on the floor at any point in time. But I do have dishes in the sink(s), and some on the counter. Some of them have old food on them (but only the plate scrapings), most of them do not. My room has piles of dirty clothes. I do not have the space in my apartment to keep any sort of organization together, especially when it comes to the clothing items. (When I say I have a small apartment... I mean like 500 or 600 square feet...)
There is a giant "rubbish" pile next to my bed. It mainly consists of papers, books, magazines, baby clothes (for Erin's niece), junk mail, bags (from items delivered at work to us or at home), and other various materials. It is next to Erin's side of the bed (hehehe). My side of the bed is literally covered with papers, CD's (outside of jewel cases), other CD's, and crap. There is not a spot to put your feet down where you would not be bending papers, breaking CD cases, or stepping on something that you could slip on.
My computer desk has recently been turned around. It had housed quite a lot of junk, empty cups, and various items (papers, little combs, tweezers, Excedrin migraine, floppy disks, little notepad books, kleenex, Clorox wipes, blank CD's, etc etc..). But I took everything off of it, including my huge computer; I wiped off the desk of dust and dirt (mostly dust from the collection due to the monitor and computer), and then I hooked up a second monitor; I then cleaned everything and put some of the stuff back. The rest of it all went onto my bedside floor. I now have a few various items, but it's much cleaner and organized before. I'm glad for that.
My kitchen table is loaded with pots and pans (all clean). I do not have the cabinet space in my cupboards to keep them all in. My refrigerator is emptied out of old stuff every time we go grocery shopping and have to re-stock the refrigerator. I know of one tupperware container in there that has moldy noodles in it. This is due to the dishes build up. I do not like to empty out food containers unless I have a clean sink to do it in. I do not have a clean sink when I have not done the dishes.

The reason my (rather, our) apartment is in this state is because we do not have the time to clean, and rarely take the time to do so. I work 45 hour weeks. When I am not working, I fumble and confuse myself. I try to juggle around these activities:

Chat online with friends
Play America's Army (online game) - I am in a clan and like to be active
Read online computer tech articles, Dimensions, e-mail, MySpace, and many other sites and information
Watch movies or concert DVD's
Listen to music and learn/understand the music
Spend time with family
Spend time with friends (this is never accomplished anymore...)
Clean/Organize
Do the laundry
Relax
Sleep
And of course there are many other things to do. However, I fail miserably at a lot of those things.
I have certain days where I get the computer for the night. Erin gets the other nights. When we are on the computer, we do not want to do anything else at all for that night. If other stuff is done, it's either making dinner, or doing the laundry. When I am not on the computer, I am more than likely watching a Dream Theater concert DVD or watching a movie.

I have a problem. I rarely clean. (I am proud, though, that when I do clean, I completely revamp)
It is not something that I am not aware of. It is something that aggrivates the hell out of me. It is something I want to turn around. But other mentally stressful and depressing situations prevent me from wanting to do much, so I avoid household chores. Not only does it take up a lot of time, but I freak out because I do not have much time to do everything in as it is.
I am thankful that it is not the dirtiest place I have seen, but I am unfortunate that I let it get to this degree. It needs to change. Luckily, it's mainly an organization problem, and less of a disgusting, health-related problem. 
I am lazy. I do not generally take care of items when I am done with them. That is something that I try to change as well. 

So here's to hoping for better, cleaner times! Hah!


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 24, 2007)

I just wanted to mention this, just in case.

A messy house is one of the least-commonly known symptoms of sleep apnea (seriously). When you don't get adequate sleep, you don't have the energy to keep anything neat or clean. You're just too tired. Doing mandatory things like working take all the energy you can muster, so the "optional" stuff like cleaning doesn't get done.

I was a giant slob before I was diagnosed and treated. I'm still not a neat freak, but I could clean my bedroom to visitor standards in five minutes or less, so I consider that clean enough.  (And no, there's no food or garbage or...ew...feces anywhere).


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## Santaclear (Oct 24, 2007)

Health buffs, the trick is to buy your pet urine and faeces (which after all is just a classier, imported grade of feces) at the pet store, pre-sterilized, and strew and spray it around the place to give it that "lived in" look. Home Depot also sells pre-sterilized "garbage" which you can fling around.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Oct 24, 2007)

Jes said:


> yes, but does the cat wipe?
> 
> HA! JUST AS I THOUGHT.



Even better -- she licks.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Oct 24, 2007)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Even better -- she licks.


She has to. They don't sell cat bidets.


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## Zandoz (Oct 24, 2007)

I was a neatness (not clean) freak...until I got married. My wife was a clean (not neat) freak. For the first 6 years or so, I was the one to make the compromise. Then came 4 years living in a house while doing a basement to roof rehab, accompanied with my increasing loss of mobility, and wife pushing herself to the breaking point trying to keep a construction site squeaky clean. We both said enough is enough. My being miserable with the clutter, and her scrubbing floors on her hands and knees while construction fallout rained down all around was just too much...we both had to let go of the obsessions.

Dishes in the sink? Yeah, but generally no longer than a day...a sink or dishwasher full load at a time. Floor needs mopping? Yup...and it will again 5 minutes after it's moped when the dogs come in from outside. Cloths on the floor? Sometimes, but laundry day is once a week...if it lays longer than that, it's trash. Speaking of trash....trash day is twice a week, and we generate 2 of the large roll-out containers full a week. If an empty soft drink 12 pack box doesn't make it out for Monday night, no one is going to go into convulsions...it goes out on Thursday.

There are three (and sometimes four) adults, two dogs, and three cats living in this tiny 2 bedroom house...along with all the stuff that once occupied a place over twice this size. Yeah, it looks like a tornado struck a garage sale, but it's sanatary...the rest doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the long run.


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## Chuggernut (Oct 24, 2007)

I can and I do!


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## Jes (Oct 24, 2007)

Chuggernut said:


> I can and I do!



for some reason, that's the cutest thing i've ever read.


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## Sandie S-R (Oct 24, 2007)

I could live with things a little messy. Periodically things get a litle cluttered or messy around our house. Hey, we're busy people. However...I could not live in something dirty or filthy. We have a housekeeper that comes every other Monday and cleans. Dusts, vacuums, deep cleaning kitchen and bathrooms, etc. We do dishes daily and try to keep things picked up, but occasionaly, things get out of order. It's called life.


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## Leesa (Oct 24, 2007)

Get your dear friend a housekeeper for Christmas and the drama will end.
Am I the only one who has ever watched How Clean Is Your House??
I hope my pals do not judge me on the number of dust bunnies under my bed!!


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## bexy (Oct 24, 2007)

*i just thought i would add i do my best to keep my house clean and tidy at all times but i do have 2 house cats and they do pee in places i dont see and it is very easy for the cleanliness of a house to slip, i somehow keep on top of mine as im so paranoid about the smell with friends coming round and what not, but perhaps ur friend was just caught unawares and would have made more of an effort had she known to.

just my thoughts  cats are a pain in the ass ill tell u that much lol

bexy xo*


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 24, 2007)

And now for your viewing pleasure....

View attachment 29492


View attachment 29493


View attachment 29494


View attachment 29495


Now, in no way, shape or form does my apartment look like this everyday. I don't remember reading if this was your first time at her place or if it was a return trip. My point...I cleaned out 2 closets that produced that crap AND I've cooked 4 meals in 2 days..so I could get some stuff in the freezer.

Maybe she's been really busy. Maybe, like me, she started something and it's taking longer than she thought to finish. I dunno. That doesn't explain the cat pee and crap..but it may explain the rest.

I'm a total junk collector...hence the massive piles of stuff that is being sent to goodwill or trashed..LOL


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## FreeThinker (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet.



Uh, she does actually _have_ a cat, right?



In seriousness, I think the state of her house is less likely to be the _cause_ of illness than the _effect_.

Chronic fatigue, depression, alcoholism...any of these could have led to what you saw.


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## Half Full (Oct 24, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Don't know if this has been discussed. Could you live in a messy or dirty house? A friend and I went to collect another friend at her house as we were going out for the night together. I was quite frankly shocked with the state of her house. There was rubbish all over the place, ie food wrappers on the floor in the loungeroom, dirty clothes dumped on the floor in her bedroom,  Plates and bowls with old food on them in the kitchen. Just crap everywhere.
> To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet. I was shocked that anybody could live like this. How is this possible? Is it judgemental to feel sickened by this? I do feel sickened by this, I can't help it.
> I could not live like that, no way. How do you help a person to change this behaviour also?
> What to do? Love the person can't handle the house.
> Susannah



You never really know what's behind closed doors...I had a friend I met thru a group we mutually belonged to. We hit it off and started socializing however it was always at my home or out. After a few months I called her on it and she told me her house was "a mess". I figured how messy could it be? 

She finally invited me over...OMG!!!!! I was SHOCKED!!! There was cat poop and vomit from 3 cats all over and so much cat hair it surrounded the perimeter of each room about a foot away from the wall and about a foot high! I couldn't breathe!! 

I felt that it was such a health hazard I demanded a broom and some garbage bags and I kid you not, I filled 4 huge garbage bags with cat hair!!

The kitchen had dirty dishes piled high in the sink plus every morning when she made coffee, her machine would somehow drip but she would never clean it and so there was a thick layer of dried, old spilled coffee covering the countertop!

The whole place was beyond disgusting and NO ONE should be living in those conditions!

I would never have suspected, she was well dressed and neat personally but she just allowed her home to become a squalid pig sty! When I asked her why she didn't take care of it (she had $$ too) she just said she was overwhelmed by it all.

I felt pity for her but believe me I never went there again!

There is a show here on BBC America called "How Clean Is Your House?" where 2 women go to people's homes that are filthy beyond measure (some even make my friend's home look clean!) It is so disgusting - bugs, flies, filthy garbage, mildew ...you name it! And some even have kids living in those conditions!!

One day I was watching it while the cable guy was fixing my cable. His back was to the TV screen but he saw the disgusted look on my face, watching the fetid garbage inside this home so he turned around and watched the show....and he told me in 20 years as a cable guy about one out of three homes he went into were just as filthy as the home on the TV!! He told me that more people live like that than anyone would realize!

It makes me horribly sad to think about but all I can say is YUCK!!!!


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## JerseyGirl07093 (Oct 24, 2007)

My aunt was a hoarder. She must have lived like that for years and no one knew. You can't imagine the horror that was her house when she died. It was just sickening...the mess and knowing what must have gone on inside her head to live like that.


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## Aliena (Oct 25, 2007)

I can NOT live in a house that isn't clean. I can not comfortably sit in a house that's dirty and I wont. 

That being said, everything Jes, Traci, and AM wrote is excellent advice. (as well as Ripley) 

Just don't go to her house again. (period)

Good luck!


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## mossystate (Oct 25, 2007)

I was thinking about this and I would hope no ' friend ' of mine would ever talk about me in this way on a message board. Something so personal, mentioned with such disgust, well, it just makes a knot in my stomach to think that I might be discussed in such a manner. While the OP said the friend is ' just bloody lazy ' and has no mental health issues, I, in the pit of my gut, think otherwise and a few people have made an effort to try and understand such behavior, and not just go " ewwww..yuck ".

Thinking of your ( not anybody in particular ) own struggles can change the way you imagine anothers life.


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## JSmirkingRevenge (Oct 25, 2007)

people can live as they choose, but i know that i personally couldn't live in a place that is constantly a disaster area. sure, i let things go from time to time but it's the constant state that i couldn't deal with. 

with that said, the one thing i can't stand is a messy kitchen. like, i've actually gotten out of bed to do dishes because i couldn't bear leaving them there overnight. i'm a little crazy, methinks.


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## Tina (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Yes. I think the hardest thing for me to deal with here is the animal urine and feces no doubt. I just cant understand how one could become used to that. I guess it is also not good to be too obsessively clean also.
> Look I still do not know what to do exactly.



Shosh, if you're asking for advice... I think you need to decide if you can still be friends with her. Will you judge her and will that judgment affect your ability to love her as your friend? Will you think of her house when you see her? Go go hug her and wonder where her clothing has been, etc? If not, and you can separate her from her house (as long as you don't have to go there), then I suggest you make it a policy never to go to her house unless it's an emergency. Then you can carry on your friendship in other places, etc. Just separate yourself from her home and love her for who she is, but without you having to traipse through it.

If you believe you cannot carry on the friendship -- that the sight and smells are too upsetting to you, then you'll need to end the friendship. 

I have no judgment either way as it's not up to me to judge you, but more for you to ascertain what your limits and abilities are as a friend.

If you're not asking for advice, disregard.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

mossystate said:


> I was thinking about this and I would hope no ' friend ' of mine would ever talk about me in this way on a message board. Something so personal, mentioned with such disgust, well, it just makes a knot in my stomach to think that I might be discussed in such a manner. While the OP said the friend is ' just bloody lazy ' and has no mental health issues, I, in the pit of my gut, think otherwise and a few people have made an effort to try and understand such behavior, and not just go " ewwww..yuck ".
> 
> Thinking of your ( not anybody in particular ) own struggles can change the way you imagine anothers life.



I would not say her name ever. Look this girl used to give me heaps about being fat, she is a friend, but she can be very tough herself. I can't see any mental health issues that she has, maybe she does have issues in that regard,I guess I am not a professional. 
Is it wrong to expect that people keep to a basic standard of cleanliness?
How hard is it to pick up after yourself?
My sister used to always point out what she perceived to be flaws in my character and It used to upset me a lot. When I stopped to think about it for a while I realized that I needed to pull my socks up and maybe take a bit of a hard look at myself. I am glad she gave me a kick up the ass now.
I think maybe I will keep my own counsel and leave it alone where all this is concerned.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

Tina said:


> Shosh, if you're asking for advice... I think you need to decide if you can still be friends with her. Will you judge her and will that judgment affect your ability to love her as your friend? Will you think of her house when you see her? Go go hug her and wonder where her clothing has been, etc? If not, and you can separate her from her house (as long as you don't have to go there), then I suggest you make it a policy never to go to her house unless it's an emergency. Then you can carry on your friendship in other places, etc. Just separate yourself from her home and love her for who she is, but without you having to traipse through it.
> 
> If you believe you cannot carry on the friendship -- that the sight and smells are too upsetting to you, then you'll need to end the friendship.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice.I am taking it in.It shall not be disregarded.

Shosh


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## mossystate (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> I would not say her name ever. Look this girl used to give me heaps about being fat, she is a friend, but she can be very tough herself. I can't see any mental health issues that she has, maybe she does have issues in that regard,I guess I am not a professional.
> Is it wrong to expect that people keep to a basic standard of cleanliness?
> How hard is it to pick up after yourself?
> My sister used to always point out what she perceived to be flaws in my character and It used to upset me a lot. When I stopped to think about it for a while I realized that I needed to pull my socks up and maybe take a bit of a hard look at myself. I am glad she gave me a kick up the ass now.
> I think maybe I will keep my own counsel and leave it alone where all this is concerned.



I was not talking about mentioning her name, just that the energy of having someone talk about me like that would make my heart hurt. That you mention her treating you in a not so nice manner, makes me think there is a " I am gonna get you back, now that I see one of YOUR 'faults', as you did with me ". That's a real normal desire, but it needs to be acknowledged.

If her standard of cleanliness is affecting your life..directly..that is the only way this is a any concern of yours. I would not want to sit in her house, so I would simply choose to not do that.

You seem to be angry, more than concerned. That's what I am reading from all this. Maybe this friendship is more tension filled than it is worth.

As for advice....it comes from all directions and some we want to take..some we will discard..yet, if we ask for it...we should have the good sense not to get angry at the mere act of receiving it.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

Yeah Gday,
The main issue for me is why live like that? Talking about depression etc, I would feel depressed if my apartment was messy and it reeked. That would depress me. I could not handle it.
Yes I am angry that she used to give me crap about my weight. That is natural.
I am not Cruella De Ville here people. Like I said ,my sister Rebecca was very straight with me re my weaknesses etc and I reckon it was just what the doctor ordered. I have to be honest. I can't take shit and call it sugar. 
I do care for my mate.


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## Tina (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Is it wrong to expect that people keep to a basic standard of cleanliness?


I think that's a Pandora's Box. IMO, friends do not impose their own standards on their friends. They love them as is, but if they cannot do that, they remove themselves from the friendship, as it would only have one place to go from there anyway.

The fact that she used to give you crap about your weight should be a separate issue, and be dealt with separately, otherwise it might show some unresolved resentment and might lead to a tit-for-tat situation.


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## DUBLINDA (Oct 25, 2007)

I must confess that Im a bit of a hoarder as in almost everything can recycled/reused in some usual manner. I live alone in a 2 bedroom apartment and my spare room looks like a bomb has gone off in it, Im trying to empty as many boxes as I can but I had surgery last month so that is slowing my project at the moment. 

I am a wee bit messy but Im not dirty, I like things to be clean but have no problem with a stack of mail sitting in a pile for a while. I wash the dishes when is pile is enough to keep me at the sink for about 15 mins or so or when Im running out of things.

Susannah - I do believe that their may be an underlining factor in your friends case, I would like for someone to speak to me if I was letting things go like that but you know her best and know how she may re-act or overre-act if approached in any manner. You are in a truly difficult situation and if it was me I would wait a while longer and see if thing change and if not then maybe approach her about it but be prepared for her to be angry and maybe cut contact for a while until she is ready to admit to herself that she is in a mess that may be too much for her to handle on her own. I wish you very good luck and offer big hugs to you in whatever you decide to do.


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## Jes (Oct 25, 2007)

mossystate said:


> . While the OP said the friend is ' just bloody lazy ' and has no mental health issues, I, in the pit of my gut, think otherwise and a few people have made an effort to try and understand such behavior, and not just go " ewwww..yuck ".
> 
> .



yes, i thought that was interesting. the absolute assurance that it wasn't even possible that there was any mental illness there at all. Not everyone is a psychologist. I certainly hope the friend never starts paysite modeling or all hell will break loose. It's much the same issue. What we would do ourselves v. what other people have no problem doing.

I think we've all made a really compelling case that there might well be more happening that sheer 'I can't get 'round to cleaning'-ness. ESPECIALLY the 'I am well dressed, have a social life, go out with people,' etc. That's a hallmark, as someone else pointed out, here. That's the first indicator that not everything is right with this situation. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it's not true.

To the person who suggested hiring a housecleaner for xmas--tread lightly! I wouldn't. If this woman is a hoarder, she will FREAK OUT. More than just losing a friend, she will find an interloper in her space completely terrifying and it may well screw with her mental state. I remember seeing a tv program where a serious hoarder had everything cleared out by the city and she said she felt completely disoriented in space, like she was floating and couldn't right herself. She felt helpless, like a child, and went and got a whole mess of other stuff, worse than before, to compensate.


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## LJ Rock (Oct 25, 2007)

just remember: we all let our homes get a bit untidy now and again... even big-time TV stars!  

View attachment 3SANFORD14.jpg


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## Jes (Oct 25, 2007)

LJ Rock said:


> just remember: we all let our homes get a bit untidy now and again... even big-time TV stars!



I'm comin', Elizabeth, I'm comin'!


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## fatgirlflyin (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Don't know if this has been discussed. Could you live in a messy or dirty house? A friend and I went to collect another friend at her house as we were going out for the night together. I was quite frankly shocked with the state of her house. There was rubbish all over the place, ie food wrappers on the floor in the loungeroom, dirty clothes dumped on the floor in her bedroom, Plates and bowls with old food on them in the kitchen. Just crap everywhere.
> To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet. I was shocked that anybody could live like this. How is this possible? Is it judgemental to feel sickened by this? I do feel sickened by this, I can't help it.
> I could not live like that, no way. How do you help a person to change this behaviour also?
> What to do? Love the person can't handle the house.
> Susannah




If you love the person then just lover her, as is. Can't handle the house? Then just don't go there. I take it that you aren't a frequent visitor, if you were then you would have noticed mess before. A house doesn't get that way over night, so just don't go over if it makes you uncomfortable. If she notices that you avoid going into her home then you could explain to her that the lack of cleanliness makes you uncomfortable. Otherwise just leave it alone. You dont know if there's not something going on in her life that prohibits her from cleaning up and if there's not anything going on, if she's just too busy or whatnot then you risk offending your friend. I know I'd certainly be very offended if a friend of mine came into my home and declared it filthy.


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## HottiMegan (Oct 25, 2007)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> FYI - when you get a bigger place you will get more stuff to fill it up! LOL




lol i know! We are in the early stages of looking to buy a 3 bedroom home and i fear the state of affairs if we have a garage! I throw a lot of my own stuff out but my husband makes excuses to keep things of his. He's not quite a hoarder, just a pack rat


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

Jes said:


> yes, i thought that was interesting. the absolute assurance that it wasn't even possible that there was any mental illness there at all. Not everyone is a psychologist. I certainly hope the friend never starts paysite modeling or all hell will break loose. It's much the same issue. What we would do ourselves v. what other people have no problem doing.
> 
> I think we've all made a really compelling case that there might well be more happening that sheer 'I can't get 'round to cleaning'-ness. ESPECIALLY the 'I am well dressed, have a social life, go out with people,' etc. That's a hallmark, as someone else pointed out, here. That's the first indicator that not everything is right with this situation. As Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it's not true.
> 
> To the person who suggested hiring a housecleaner for xmas--tread lightly! I wouldn't. If this woman is a hoarder, she will FREAK OUT. More than just losing a friend, she will find an interloper in her space completely terrifying and it may well screw with her mental state. I remember seeing a tv program where a serious hoarder had everything cleared out by the city and she said she felt completely disoriented in space, like she was floating and couldn't right herself. She felt helpless, like a child, and went and got a whole mess of other stuff, worse than before, to compensate.



I understand what you are saying here. I will say it again that I don't believe she has mental health issues. I feel for those that do, I just do not believe this is the case here.
I think it is a bit unfair to raise the whole paysite issue again in this thread Jes to have a go at me. That is not relevant to this issue and not nice as a swipe at me. I guess I will have to pay for that forever with some.


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## Risible (Oct 25, 2007)

My house is a mess right now. We've had ongoing remodeling for several months now, with several months to go. There's stuff in boxes filling up the family room so that I have to pick my way around them; there are unfinished projects right and left. It's a headache, and it's depressing to me.

But I find I can live with it. And if I invited someone over and they cringed or made remarks on the untidyness of it all, I'd say, *Get The Fuck Out!* This is, after all, _my home_, and in an overcrowded world, it is the one place - *the one place* - where I call the shots. Completely. Disrespect my house - disrespect me. I don't care what state I allow it to get to - it's my choice. And friend or foe can take it or leave it.

Obviously I feel very strongly about my space, Susannah. Beware that you don't seriously offend and alienate your friend by taking your battle onto her turf.


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## Jes (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> I understand what you are saying here. I will say it again that I don't believe she has mental health issues. I feel for those that do, I just do not believe this is the case here.
> I think it is a bit unfair to raise the whole paysite issue again in this thread Jes to have a go at me. That is not relevant to this issue and not nice as a swipe at me. I guess I will have to pay for that forever with some.



the funny thing is, I didn't care in the least when your thread about paysites was going on. I don't even think i commented. but this post of yours? oh yes, it absolutely touched a nerve. And i see it as much the same thing. You can't see how she lives like that.

But clearly she does. 

She even has friends who come by to take her out!

The cat shit hasn't killed her yet, has it? So she seems to be doing just fine. And if there's for sure no mental illness/depression/whatever to talk about with her, then I'm not sure exactly what it is that you would say to her. 
"Friend, I thought the cat crap might make you sick, but you seem fine to me and I thought maybe a messy house meant you were depressed or a hoarder, but I've determined you have no mental issues, and it's just laziness and what's more, you don't seem troubled by it, only I do, so....I'm not sure why I brought this up." I kinda see the conversation going just like that. 
Or maybe it's a case of: "Self (Susannah), you saw something that surprised the hell out of you but also freaked you out b/c you simply can't imagine living like that and perhaps it even frightens you to think that some day, or some reason, you might end up like that and what would it mean or what would it say about you if you did, indeed, live in a pigsty? Well, you don't, and if you do, that's got nothing to do with this friend of mine, and while being around her mess surprises me and makes me anxious in that I think about it happening to me or other people, I don't live there and I don't have to think about it anymore. She's clearly doing fine and can handle being lazy and messy and she's not asking me to handle it so I don't need to."

My paysite reference wasn't a dig--it was an attempt to link the 2 parts of this issue, like you eventually did in your paysite thread. You admitted that ultimately, what made you anxious about other women doing this is because you couldn't imagine YOU doing it. That you had enough personal demons (and that, I'm not mocking or judging at all) about looks and size that you personalized things that weren't actually about you at all, and that, if you dind't look at the paysite at all, you wouldn't ever have to see.

There's a certain anxiety that comes from being near something that confuses, surprises or scares you. It's easy to start thinking about how it could end up being YOUR reality, even if that's not at all likely. It's the same reason people want the McMann family to kill themselves in cold blood or. It's misplaced anxiety. In those cases, the best thing to do is usually to have the 'it's not her, it's me' talk with yourself, and not say anything to the person that made you so anxious. 

Is it possible that there are things about her attitude that you're a bit jealous of? Not that you want to be covered in cat poop, but...that she seems fine with it? That you would DIE if someone saw your house like that, and feel judged by it and that's one thing that keeps you tidy all the time, but that she doesn't care? She doesn't fear anyone judging her, or thinking: god, what a mess! And that you do? And so being around someone who makes a choice other than your own, and seems to have no probs with it, no recrimination (when that's something you fear) is really, deeply unsettling to you? A kind of 'but it's not fair! I'd never be able to get away with that!' feeling?

And I'm not pointing that finger just at you--I struggle with the same set of issues all the time, Susannah.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

Jes thank you. Believe me I have much compassion for those suffering from a mental illness. Never would I advocate going into a true horder's home and turning their world upside down.
I don't think I am being vindictive by being shocked by all this. I am just trying to point out that this woman is perfectly sane and can hold her own. 

Anyway I am off to work now, it is Friday and I am going to have a wonderful day today.
I also wish you much happiness Jes because I sense that things may be hard for you right now.
Susannah


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## Jes (Oct 25, 2007)

Me? Well...ok, thanks. I... ok! haha. I'll take all the help I can get, god knows, though I don't know about what. I think you've missed my point entirely about being vindictive. Not one of us has suggested that in 5 pages, but it keeps coming up again and again--from you. 
And hey, if your pal can hold her own, why on earth would you need to go fix her and her mounds of cat shit? 

to wit:
http://www.mikeschuster.com/CatShitCookies2.jpg


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## ripley (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah,

A lot of judgmental attitude is coming through in your posts. If you are going to talk to your friend about this (which I still say is a mistake) you need to make sure you've worked through any feelings of judgment, superiority, or revenge. It would require such delicacy to do it in a constructive way that any feelings like that, coloring your words, would cause a disaster. Is it worth losing her friendship over, to be able to vent your disgust?

Have you considered, for a moment, how much trust she put in you to allow you in her house in the first place? Trust me, she is fully aware of it's state...probably painfully so. You say you are friends, but this is the first time you've seen her home? She must view you as a good friend indeed to show you her Achilles heel and hand you the knife. Take the kind path. Prove you are worthy of the trust she showed you, and don't hurt her with this. Who knows, if you are kind, maybe she'll open up in a month, or a year, and tell you she is overwhelmed and ask for your help.

I haven't vacuumed behind my television in ages. The dog's beds could use a laundering. I hate to dust. If I had a friend try "tough love" crap on me regarding it, I would think that she was a bitch and frankly probably not want her friendship at all. What it comes down to is that you have no right to judge her, whatever her situation, if you are indeed a good friend.


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## Leesa (Oct 25, 2007)

Perhaps this is a cultural thing! :doh: I will never in a million years understand how someone could be so insensitive and cruel to a "friend.":doh: In my culture it is disrespectful to make fun of your friends. Obviously, situations like this are not the same all over the world.
Help or hush! (and *please* do NOT visit me!)


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## mimosa (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah

Thanks for being a good and caring friend to me. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate you.  I am NOT going to hate just because you have an opinion that is different from mine. *hugs*


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

ripley said:


> Susannah,
> 
> A lot of judgmental attitude is coming through in your posts. If you are going to talk to your friend about this (which I still say is a mistake) you need to make sure you've worked through any feelings of judgment, superiority, or revenge. It would require such delicacy to do it in a constructive way that any feelings like that, coloring your words, would cause a disaster. Is it worth losing her friendship over, to be able to vent your disgust?
> 
> ...



This woman has judged the hell out of me, but hey that is ok I guess.I had better just wear that I guess. Look I already said that I would not say anything nasty to her, do I need to repeat that.
I think many people would find this situation intolerable but because it is me raising the issue I have to take it all all fronts.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

mimosa said:


> Susannah
> 
> Thanks for being a good and caring friend to me. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate you.  I am NOT going to hate just because you have an opinion that is different from mine. *hugs*



Thank you cookie.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

Leesa said:


> Perhaps this is a cultural thing! :doh: I will never in a million years understand how someone could be so insensitive and cruel to a "friend.":doh: In my culture it is disrespectful to make fun of your friends. Obviously, situations like this are not the same all over the world.
> Help or hush! (and *please* do NOT visit me!)



It really is not a cultural thing. As for being cruel this woman was horrible to me about my weight and delighted in it, but that is ok I guess.


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## liz (di-va) (Oct 25, 2007)

Thinking aloud.

My best friend, whom I've known since college, and I talked about it once and decided we've probably talked more about housekeeping--home-keeping--in the last twenty years than we have even about boys. And that's not cause we're neat freaks, or the opposite, it's just cause homekeeping is this whole huge job you have to fit around your "real" job, but is overwhelming even on its own. And if you live alone...it's *not* always simpler. It requires a lot of energy and momentum and time...if you're single and broke and trying to work a regular job and an additional one or two on top of it...sometimes something has to give.

And that's in the best of circs with no "issues" attached, and who doesn't have housekeeping issues.

I struggle a lot with housekeeping guilt--I inherited my mother's eye for dirt and housekeeping ideals, but none of the energy for tackling it. Needless to say, the guilt gets me nowhere productive. Less than nowhere. 

It's 2007, and I have a vacuum cleaner and dishwasher and Swiffers and this should all be so easy...but it's not. We're awash in stuff and papers and junk and "housekeeping ain't no joke," as Louisa May Alcott would say.

The best money I've ever spent in my life has been on getting housekeeping help. I'll spend 3-4 hours "cleaning"--tidying--putting stuff away, sorting out--and create surfaces that I hire someone else to clean. I always tip as hugely as I can and renew my hope that when I'm rich and powerful someday I'll raise minimum housekeeping wages as much as I can. Cause this work is crucial.

Anyhow, all I'm really saying per this thread is? Despite some of this getting much less fraught in my adult life, for every square messy/gritty/unkempt square foot of my apartment, there are still a million issues and hours of agonizing behind it. I *know* my apartment is messy when it is. It would take a rare person/relationship to be able to even discuss it comfortably while they were actually there and not feel weird about it. And I wouldn't bug somebody else about it unless they'd wanna talk about it. And I can understand being concerned, but it's not like she doesn't know anything yer gonna say to her. As people have said.

rambleramble


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## mossystate (Oct 25, 2007)

So, why didn't you just say that to begin with..that this woman is an asshole and you want to stick it to her.

I have a sister like that. I want, and have the ammo, to have her dreams haunt her for many years to come. I fully cop to wanting to get back at her. I don't dress it up in bullshit to make it anything but what it is.

There are people who are not jerks and who have difficulties like the one your buddy has with her house . By playing out your being pissed off at her, you have made some people here feel anxious, because they feel a judging coming from all these wide eyed ' omg, can you BELIEVE people live like that ? '..posts.

If anybody else had posted what you did in your original message, I would have had the same reaction...that it is none of your business ( unless you have to be in that house, or she hugs you and you find cat shit on your blouse ) unless you go to her SOLELY out of concern..but...you once again finally showed your true colors about a situation. Why not just say that you are pissed and want to get back at her....revenge..mmmmmm...tasty.

Hell, get her to post out here and I bet some of us will have a go at her for fat bashing you.


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## ripley (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> This woman has judged the hell out of me, but hey that is ok I guess.I had better just wear that I guess.





That's a separate issue to me, totally. Obviously it's not to you though, and I am tired of trying to make you see that.





Susannah said:


> Look I already said that I would not say anything nasty to her, do I need to repeat that.





I didn't say you would. I just said that your motives better be pure if you're going to tackle saying anything to her at all about it, or it will be a train wreck.




Susannah said:


> I think many people would find this situation intolerable but because it is me raising the issue I have to take it all all fronts.





I'm curious though, why you consider this situation "intolerable." Her house is a mess, you don't like it....big frickin' deal. To me it is neither a "situation" or "intolerable." You've been there once, it's not like you have to go there every day (or at all!).

If this chick has been such a bitch to you, why do you want her friendship anyway?


I'm sorry that you feel I was attacking you. It wasn't my intention. It seems to me though, that anytime anyone answers your threads/posts and offers a differing opinion that this is your reaction. I was (and am) polite to you. Perhaps before cleaning someone else's home you should look to your own mess, and wonder why you regularly post things, people answer them, and you get your nose out of joint and act like everyone is picking on you. Only one post in this thread can I point to and say "this seems a little rude" in response to you.


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## Ned Sonntag (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Don't know if this has been discussed. Could you live in a messy or dirty house? A friend and I went to collect another friend at her house as we were going out for the night together. I was quite frankly shocked with the state of her house. There was rubbish all over the place, ie food wrappers on the floor in the loungeroom, dirty clothes dumped on the floor in her bedroom, Plates and bowls with old food on them in the kitchen. Just crap everywhere.
> To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet. I was shocked that anybody could live like this. How is this possible? Is it judgemental to feel sickened by this? I do feel sickened by this, I can't help it.
> I could not live like that, no way. How do you help a person to change this behaviour also?
> What to do? Love the person can't handle the house.
> Susannah


 My late wife's cat was seriously into in-house 'marking' ...this huge evil beast had a personality as big as any human. He died almost a year ago and I miss him terribly. But the house now smells pretty decent!




http://www.sonntag.hipsterfag.com


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## fatgirlflyin (Oct 25, 2007)

mimosa said:


> Susannah
> 
> Thanks for being a good and caring friend to me. I just wanted you to know that I appreciate you.  I am NOT going to hate just because you have an opinion that is different from mine. *hugs*




OK where is anyone hating anyone?

Susannah posted, other people posted their opinons about what she posted. That's what message boards are for. At no point did I see anyone say anything negative about Susannah. Just shared different opinions


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## Ruffie (Oct 25, 2007)

I often have a messy house with a couple of shedding dogs and two teenage boys and their friends at the house it is"like shoveling snow in a blizzard." My weekends are time to clean and do laundry, and the dishes are done at least once a day. However my attiude when I visit friends and when they come to visit me is that I am there to visit the friend not the house. What I have done when a friend has had trouble keeping up is say lets have a makeover day and go help her clean and we move the furniture and such around making the place look clean and refreshed. I would totally accept help from anyone else too cause sometimes with a buisness, working full time, kids and a mom to look after the housework is last on the list. I have a plaque in my living room that says"Martha Stewart doesn't live here adjust!"
Ruth


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## fatgirlflyin (Oct 25, 2007)

Susannah said:


> This woman has judged the hell out of me, but hey that is ok I guess.I had better just wear that I guess. Look I already said that I would not say anything nasty to her, do I need to repeat that.
> I think many people would find this situation intolerable but because it is me raising the issue I have to take it all all fronts.



I'm wondering, do you feel better now? Now that you've judged her? Two wrongs don't make a right, that's a lesson that I constantly seem to be trying to teach my children. Also I highly doubt that people have the opinions they have because you were the original poster, had I started the thread with the same initial post I'm sure the response would have been the same. No one's beating up on you as far as I can see. Just replying to a question you raised.


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 25, 2007)

Ella Bella said:


> No one's beating up on you as far as I can see. Just replying to a question you raised.



But it can be so much easier to play the victim card than to realize..Hey..I brought up a subject, there are people who don't agree with me and I can say..thanks for giving me a different perspective and move on to something new.

There have been some very valid points made in this thread. What really strikes me is that it seems that now you have something to hold over her head after she spent years judging you for your "imperfections." Honestly, do you really want to stoop to her level? Do you really want to be the type of person who points out the flaws of another? What does that really accomplish and how is that healthy for a friendship?

The fact of the matter is..she's a grown woman. Unless there are minors involved who are in harms way, her house is really none of your business. Don't let grudges from the past dictate the present. It sounds to me like you're holding onto a lot of hurt from the past and that's seeping into this issue.

It sounds to me like an unhealthy friendship anyways. Maybe instead of talking to her about the dirt in her house, you should resolve the issues of how she treated you when you were bigger, how it made you feel and how to finally work past it once and for all.


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## Pink (Oct 25, 2007)

One of my grandfathers was spotless at keeping house. Food and drink was for the dining room table ONLY. You would never even see a book laying on a table. Clean! Now my paternal grandpa was a total mess. He never cleaned the bathtub, had 30 houseplants with dirt falling out on the floor, mouse pills in the fold out couch, and my mom would not let us even open his fridge in fear of the moldy food we might encounter. I loved both of them equally and my messy pa-pa was the most generous person I have ever met donating money to every charity in the area not to mention taking full time care of my grandmother who suffered from parkinson's for 15 years until her death.
Clean house keeping isn't a good way to judge character I would think.
I am a pretty picky about my own home but I wouldn't dream of telling one of my friends their house was nasty. I started folding a large pile towels that were laying on a table before at a friends house and she laughed about it. So you might just pitch in and help her out if you don't think it would offend her. I would be pretty cautious there though.


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## Shosh (Oct 25, 2007)

My conclusion to this is that maybe I just need to leave it alone. Why should I get all stressed about it? I have enough worries of my own to be honest. 
Maybe some perceive that I don't get what they are saying here but I do. 
Look, I had an accident at work this morning and have twisted my ankle. I was stressed and obviously not looking where I was going. This must be my body's way of telling me I am stressing too much and need to worry about myself and not others so much. Time to listen to my body I guess. Time to be happy.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 26, 2007)

Susannah said:


> How hard is it to pick up after yourself?



Well, as someone who literally nearly suffocated to death every night when she slept (I stopped breathing and woke up every 45 seconds!), I can tell you that when you really, truly, physically do not have the energy, it can be absolutely impossible.


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## Shosh (Oct 26, 2007)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> Well, as someone who literally nearly suffocated to death every night when she slept (I stopped breathing and woke up every 45 seconds!), I can tell you that when you really, truly, physically do not have the energy, it can be absolutely impossible.



Yes I do understand It can be hard to keep house when you are sick. I have Multiple Sclerosis and I have days when I am very weak and shaky but I force myself to do it, because I know that I will feel down if I am not in clean and tidy surroundings.
Be well.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 26, 2007)

After getting virtually no sleep for more than 25 years, trust me when I say there are days you can't even do that. I know you know what I mean. Imagine your least energetic day you've ever had - and then imagine having that day over and over and over again.

I'm grateful, though, INCREDIBLY grateful, that I found a remedy. My heart goes out to you for your illness, and I wish you nothing but the best of health.


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## Shosh (Oct 26, 2007)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> After getting virtually no sleep for more than 25 years, trust me when I say there are days you can't even do that. I know you know what I mean. Imagine your least energetic day you've ever had - and then imagine having that day over and over and over again.
> 
> I'm grateful, though, INCREDIBLY grateful, that I found a remedy. My heart goes out to you for your illness, and I wish you nothing but the best of health.



Thanks. I live a fairly normal life punctuated by attacks of illness and days when I feel terrible. Today I feel well.
Anyway I think I shall worry about my own place only. People may think I am a bitch but I am not. Was just shocked is all.


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## elle camino (Oct 26, 2007)

ok i have to say that if were to go over to a friend's house and see actual poop on their floor, which they were aware of but obviously unable/unwilling to do anything about, i'd be really alarmed too. 
my reaction would be to show up the next morning in my scrubbies with gloves and a mop and an old madonna tape to clean to. i know what it's like to be overwhelmed by housework and life in general, and sometimes you just need some help from your friends to get over the hump. it really doesn't even matter WHY the house is in that kind of condition. i probably wouldn't even ask, i'd just do what i could to help get it back to a healthy-living-environment type of state.
i don't think there's anything shitty or presumptuous about being concerned about something like that. i think it's what good friends _should_ do.


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## Carrie (Oct 26, 2007)

elle camino said:


> ok i have to say that if were to go over to a friend's house and see actual poop on their floor, which they were aware of but obviously unable/unwilling to do anything about, i'd be really alarmed too.
> my reaction would be to show up the next morning in my scrubbies with gloves and a mop and an old madonna tape to clean to. i know what it's like to be overwhelmed by housework and life in general, and sometimes you just need some help from your friends to get over the hump. it really doesn't even matter WHY the house is in that kind of condition. i probably wouldn't even ask, i'd just do what i could to help get it back to a healthy-living-environment type of state.
> i don't think there's anything shitty or presumptuous about being concerned about something like that. i think it's what good friends _should_ do.


I may or not be okay with this. Mostly depending on which Madonna tape you brought.


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## Tina (Oct 26, 2007)

How is your ankle today, Shosh?


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## Shosh (Oct 26, 2007)

Tina said:


> How is your ankle today, Shosh?



Oh thank you so much for asking. I had a night of pain last night which made sleeping hard, even with painkillers. It is still hurting but some of the swelling has gone down. I shall survive.

Meanwhile, what is Madonna tape?


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## ekmanifest (Oct 26, 2007)

Until two years ago I was incapable of keeping a neat house. It isn't in my genes (maybe buried under jeans) and at different times in my life - when depression is really bad, or when I was a new single mother of a baby who had to work 10 hours a day - it was pretty disgusting and I was completely embarrassed and would do anything to avoid anyone else seeing it. Had anyone who happened to see it confronted me on it, it probably would have sent me over the precarious edge I was already perched on.

Two years ago I hired a cleaning lady - not a once a week come in and make everything on the surface look nice - but a cleaning lady who comes to my house twice a week for four hours each day. I have never been happier and more relieved in my life. She organized everything, it took her a while, but now if she weren't to come for a while, I could definitely keep it together because there is a system in place, that even though I'm a pretty bright girl in many ways, I am incredibly incompetent in the physical organization of things.

Having her has changed my life in a million ways - most particularly the ability to socialize at a moments notice, not worry about someone "just stopping by". It isn't cheap, but I got to tell you, if I were in a financial bind, it is one of the last things I would let go.


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## ilovesecretb (Oct 26, 2007)

If its just me, then MESSY. i dont care. its completely liveable, so yeah. But then again, i can only really be ok with it if its my mess (hence 'if it was just me', otherwise i would get ticked off, LOL), but i wouldnt like it if there was anything like bugs or investations, Bleugh, hate those


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## willamena31 (Oct 26, 2007)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> After getting virtually no sleep for more than 25 years, trust me when I say there are days you can't even do that. I know you know what I mean. Imagine your least energetic day you've ever had - and then imagine having that day over and over and over again.
> 
> I'm grateful, though, INCREDIBLY grateful, that I found a remedy. My heart goes out to you for your illness, and I wish you nothing but the best of health.



*I honestly think this is what's wrong with me too. I'm sooo incrediably tired all the time that I barely even have the energy to go to work. I have to literally drag myself out of bed every day. If I could I would spend most of my day sleeping. (maybe I better look into seeing a dr, but I'm weird bout dr's)

Anyway, my house tends to get very messy. Dishes piled up in the sink till we have none to eat off of, then they get cleaned. I take my work clothes off in the living room when I come in at night and they all pile up on the couch till laundry day which is usually once every 2 weeks since I have to go to the laundry mat. Hubby is the cook and he makes a mess of the stove but never cleans it. By the time I see it, stuff is so caked up on it that I have to let cleaning stuff soak on it for a couple hours before it will come clean. I can't remember the last time I dusted. The only truely clean things in my house are my toilet, and believe it or not, the litter box!!! LOL

I just can't seem to find the energy to do anything and the hubby... he's just as lazy as I am!! So Shosh, you probly wouldn't want to come to my house girl you'll probly never think of me the same after this post, but I just had to put it out there.

Hugggsss!!
Billie Jo*


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## NancyGirl74 (Oct 26, 2007)

My opinion: Don't go over any more. Sooner or later she'll question you as to why. If you're a good friend lie. Say you are allergic to cats and didn't want to hurt her feelings. If you are a really, really good friend tell the truth as kindly as you can with love and concern in your heart....just know she will likely be hurt and your friendship may suffer. If it was me, I'd tell the lie (although I really am allergic to cats) and keep the friend. However, if I sincerely thought her health was at risk or that she was suffering from depression I'd express my concern as sensitively as I could. Tough situation but ultimately how someone chooses to live is noyabiznass.

Again, just my opinion...


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## Jes (Oct 26, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Meanwhile, what is Madonna tape?



They sell it in hardware and home improvement stores, here, for picking up faeces. Probably for other things too, but faeces sticks to it the best.


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## Tina (Oct 27, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Oh thank you so much for asking. I had a night of pain last night which made sleeping hard, even with painkillers. It is still hurting but some of the swelling has gone down. I shall survive.



Ice is your friend, Shosh. It can help to buy a few really cheap bags of frozen peas or corn on sale and rotate them in and out of the freezer, in a ziploc bag, just in case the food bag has a little hole. Ice helps. I know it must hurt, though. Been there. Take care now.


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2007)

Tina said:


> Ice is your friend, Shosh. It can help to buy a few really cheap bags of frozen peas or corn on sale and rotate them in and out of the freezer, in a ziploc bag, just in case the food bag has a little hole. Ice helps. I know it must hurt, though. Been there. Take care now.



Yes, thank you so much Tina.


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## toni (Oct 27, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Don't know if this has been discussed. Could you live in a messy or dirty house? A friend and I went to collect another friend at her house as we were going out for the night together. I was quite frankly shocked with the state of her house. There was rubbish all over the place, ie food wrappers on the floor in the loungeroom, dirty clothes dumped on the floor in her bedroom, Plates and bowls with old food on them in the kitchen. Just crap everywhere.
> To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet. I was shocked that anybody could live like this. How is this possible? Is it judgemental to feel sickened by this? I do feel sickened by this, I can't help it.
> I could not live like that, no way. How do you help a person to change this behaviour also?
> What to do? Love the person can't handle the house.
> Susannah



I am a huge slob. I know that things can get out of hand quick! It usually takes a week for me to get tired of a mess. If I were depressed or something, it could take me longer to clean.

I think it is a bit presumptuous to offer your "help". Maybe she doesn't want to change. Maybe she is happy the way she lives. I do not feel it is your place to tell someone how to keep their home. You do not have to live there, she does. I am sure this woman is aware of her slob status. You might have caught her on a bad day. I say keep it to yourself.


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey Billie,

I don't think any less of you mate. Or anybody. I have been thinking about this whole thing and why I had such a reaction to it.
When my grandmother was alive she used to have cats. She didn't clean up after them properly and they were messy and the state of her house because of it was terrible. She had a beautiful house too. It was just horrible for me. I just did not want to go there because of it.
I apologize to cat lovers, but I have never been able to be near a cat comfortably. 
I did love my Grandmother, but she was just insistant on living in such a manner, and it used to make me worry for her and it used to upset me.
I just can't understand living in such a fashion. 
And so it goes.


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## Pink (Oct 27, 2007)

Carrie said:


> I may or not be okay with this. Mostly depending on which Madonna tape you brought.



Is there a bad Madonna tape?:huh:


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 27, 2007)

Hey Shosh!

I have the wierdest kind of OCD. I'm not really a horder per se, but I have this fear of throwing stuff away. I think as soon as I toss that receipt or that 'thing' something is going to come up where I'll need it or I will suddenly find out what it goes to. My house is cluttered but it's an organized clutter if you know what I mean? I've got casual clothes, opera gowns, work clothes, club clothes, travel clothes, shoes. Because I'm involved in all of these insane activities and institutions I have a lot of stuff and memorobilia. 

Doubled with that I'm kind of a germophobe. Every room has two canisters of disposable disinfectant wipes. If I'm washing dishes and run out of hot water I will stop becasue I feel like the hot water kills germs better so I'm notorious for washing only half the dishes. When I go grocery shopping I have to open everything and wash them: meats, veggies, fruits - everything gets washed, prepped and seasoned, placed in individual storage bags and then stored in the fridge or freezer. When I leave a restroom I wash my hands for one whole minute and then use the paper towel to grab the door handle to leave. 

My mother is a neat freak. She rants on an on about how cluttered and disorganized my apartment is and boasts of how neat her house always is but in all honesty, I think her place is the filthiest ever. When she cleans she uses the same rag so everything looks clean, but to me everything is covered with an invisible sheet of guck. She half cleans her dishes, her pots, the bathroom - eew. She brags about how it takes me forever to clean while she just whips through and can finish in a fraction of the time. OMG, I think she'd be better off if she just left everything the way it is. To me her home is much dirtier than mine. 

Even though she gives me a good go about my habits I would never share any of my thoughts about her housekeeping skills with her, she'd be furious. I just want to give you another view of how somebody might look at things and what one person considers 'clean.' Depending on what someone has been taught it can mean different things to different people.


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## BBWDREAMLOVER (Oct 27, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Don't know if this has been discussed. Could you live in a messy or dirty house? A friend and I went to collect another friend at her house as we were going out for the night together. I was quite frankly shocked with the state of her house. There was rubbish all over the place, ie food wrappers on the floor in the loungeroom, dirty clothes dumped on the floor in her bedroom, Plates and bowls with old food on them in the kitchen. Just crap everywhere.
> To make it worse the place reeked of cat urine and there was cat faeces on the carpet. I was shocked that anybody could live like this. How is this possible? Is it judgemental to feel sickened by this? I do feel sickened by this, I can't help it.
> I could not live like that, no way. How do you help a person to change this behaviour also?
> What to do? Love the person can't handle the house.
> Susannah



OMG NO WAY!!
Me and my son are total neat/clean freaks and I've known people like that myself. I refused to go visit them......it's just gross! I could never understand how someone could sit in their home, look around and see such grossness and be totally ok with it. 
As far as what to do...I confronted my friend, I just out right asked her "don't you think your house is kind of gross?"
She to my shock replied "yea I do" she was just too lazy to care. I'm pretty damn lazy myself I hate having to even get dressed but there is no way in hell I could live in filth. I don't think it's judgemantal at all......its your personal preference and thats why it's hard for you and me to understand.
Plus some people are raised in homes like that and think it's ok. Some people are mentally off .........if you feel she doesn't have a mental disorder I say, say something. I did, do it tactfully you don't wanna hurt her feelings but voicing your concerns for one shows you care and your worried about her. True friends can help one another without the stupid catty crap and friends need to know you care and love them.


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## Jes (Oct 27, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Hey Billie,
> 
> I don't think any less of you mate. Or anybody. I have been thinking about this whole thing and why I had such a reaction to it.
> When my grandmother was alive she used to have cats. She didn't clean up after them properly and they were messy and the state of her house because of it was terrible. She had a beautiful house too. It was just horrible for me. I just did not want to go there because of it.
> ...



Right. So ultimately, seeing your friend's house took you back to something in your childhood that was very, very difficult for you--loving someone whose house you couldn't bear to be in.
Which means this experience triggered something in you and was about you, not so much the house of a friend you don't need to enter.
You. Not her.
Which is exactly what I was saying in the beginning, and something you out-of-hand rejected. I don't hate you Susannah and I'm not villifying you. I see something very 1, 2, 3 in what you said and that's what I'm reacting to.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 27, 2007)

Shosh, like others, the first thing I thought of when you mentioned your friend's house is that she may be suffering from depression. It's something I've experienced myself, and seen in others. When you get depressed, often it can be hard to keep up with the day to day things, household chores being one of them. Laziness is one thing but living with feces around is a little beyond normal, garden variety laziness, especially if it's something that's new or different for her. All that being said, the best thing you can do is to be her friend and love her. If you can't stand being in her home, that's okay; invite her to yours.

Hope your ankle's feeling better!


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## Tina (Oct 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> When I leave a restroom I wash my hands for one whole minute and then use the paper towel to grab the door handle to leave.



But do you use the paper towel to turn off the water and flip the light switch? Those two objects are supposedly the most germ-y in the bathroom, and even moreso than the door handle. So, while we don't exactly do things the same way, when it comes to germs... um, yeah, I can relate...


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 27, 2007)

Tina said:


> But do you use the paper towel to turn off the water and flip the light switch? Those two objects are supposedly the most germ-y in the bathroom, and even moreso than the door handle. So, while we don't exactly do things the same way, when it comes to germs... um, yeah, I can relate...



These days, more often than not the bathrooms now have those motion activated faucets that shut off and on by themselves - but yeah, the faucet and the light switch AND I remove a piece of paper towel before I wash so I can use it to touch the paper towel dispenser handle/knob to get more when I've finished washing. How's that for 'weird lady in the restroom?'


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

I really do not like when some people use fat as the example for every disagreement in every situation, however, in this one, I think it once again is worth mentioning that the exclamations of " fuck, how GROSS..how can you LIVE like this " IS used against fat people all the damned time. If ' you ' have ever felt the sting of those exact words..or the attitude..stop and THINK how it made you feel. Yeah, maybe you are a person who is all balls to the wall and you don't care what anybody says or thinks about you, but, most people are not like that.

To Dream.. when you mention preferences, please remember we all have them, even the woman who is living in a dirty house. There are those who don't understand why you are fat and will say either that you are mentally ill, or that, no, you are not and they will tell you straight out, " god don't you think your body is gross? ". Not saying both situations are exactly the same..but, close enough.

This thread really is not about a person having a dirty house. Hey, it's great if a few people looking in and who have not commented are now looking at how they react and deal with people who have a place in their lives, to whatever degree, but this is all about the layers of revenge and triggers. It is messy stuff.

I look at things about people and think...holy shit. I have the good sense to not actually believe that I am doing anything other than what I am doing. Susannah, your Grandma's house and the fat bashing are triggering all this and that's why your reaction is all about you and nobody else. This is not about a dirty house.


Hey, I know how not fun it is to climb up to my own brain and fill those garbage bags...and I be having to do that quite a bit these days.


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

Oh hell...that is not weird bathroom behavior, Lilly...that is pure self-defense..*L* I have turned sideways at the door, to gather enough fabric from a top so I could turn the door handle.


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## Tina (Oct 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> These days, more often than not the bathrooms now have those motion activated faucets that shut off and on by themselves - but yeah, the faucet and the light switch AND I remove a piece of paper towel before I wash so I can use it to touch the paper towel dispenser handle/knob to get more when I've finished washing. How's that for 'weird lady in the restroom?'



Okay, this made me laugh out loud. I have the feeling that if we were in a bathroom, at sinks facing each other, our actions would make us look like mirror images of each other. IOW, yes, me, too, fellow 'weird lady in the restroom.'  And you get rep from me for my first laugh of the day.

Monique, those are very good points. In issues that stand out to us, we all have to decide what we can and cannot live with, both in ourselves and others. I have my own opinions of pretty much every issue, but overall, including this issue, I tend to be a 'live and let live' kinda gal.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 27, 2007)

mossystate said:


> Oh hell...that is not weird bathroom behavior, Lilly...that is pure self-defense..*L* I have turned sideways at the door, to gather enough fabric from a top so I could turn the door handle.



I've done that too! I've also pulled my sleeve down over my hand so that I could use the handrails on the subway. I NEVER touch my face or rub my eye. I will use the back of my wrist if I absolutley have to scratch.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 27, 2007)

HottiMegan said:


> lol i know! We are in the early stages of looking to buy a 3 bedroom home and i fear the state of affairs if we have a garage! I throw a lot of my own stuff out but my husband makes excuses to keep things of his. He's not quite a hoarder, just a pack rat





I remember some of the most ridiculous fights with my ex-husband being over empty cardboard boxes we "might need" being tossed in the trash......:doh:


I found a solution though...don't argue. Just wait until he is gone, toss out the boxes, even go through some of his piles and toss out bits of it little by little. He NEVER missed one damn thing I got rid of....EVER. He didn't really care about "his many treasures"- he just hated to see things thrown out or given away.


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## TraciJo67 (Oct 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> These days, more often than not the bathrooms now have those motion activated faucets that shut off and on by themselves - but yeah, the faucet and the light switch AND I remove a piece of paper towel before I wash so I can use it to touch the paper towel dispenser handle/knob to get more when I've finished washing. How's that for 'weird lady in the restroom?'



That's not at all weird, Lilly. I do that myself. Many people do not wash their hands after using the restroom ... and even among those who do, I'm surprised to see that many don't use soap. I once had a discussion about this with an otherwise very intelligent coworker, who said that the germ-killing action is in vigorous hand rubbing anyway, so we don't need soap. After a while, I could see that I wasn't going to get her to see it my way. I just silently thought to myself, I'll use my santizing gel every time I touch her from now on


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## Brenda (Oct 27, 2007)

I am a reformed slob and I am so much happier now. I was a messy until about eight years ago and it made my life twice as stressful. While I did not have pets to really yuck the place up I could never find my keys , repurchased items I already owned but could not find and never had friends around out of shame. I was so overwhelmed by the mess I simply avoided it. Now I enjoy my home and my possessions don't possess me. 

Every messy or hoarder I know is not happy in that state but can't see a way out. They feel like being organized and neat is something they are not wired for and lose hope. What helped me make the change was figuring out I could learn to be organized it was not something I had to be born with.


Several months ago a friend was threatened with eviction because of the filthy condition of her apartment. I live close by so I offered to help clean as she did not have the financial means to move (which would have been easier). I spent many hours sorting through mounds of trash, scrubbing feces of the walls (literally) and sweeping up dead cockroaches. When we finally finished she cried and said she was sad it took a threat of eviction to get her place in order. She bought a new couch and even did some decorating. Two months later I went back to her place (she knew I was coming) and it was back to squalor. 

My point in sharing this is that unless she is ready to change anything you say or do will be pointless. She saw that clean was a nicer way to live but for whatever reasons chose not to maintain it. I don't regret helping her, I feel so sad for her because I know how depressing her surroundings are for her and her children but there is nothing I can do that will improve the situation. I imagine when and if the manager gets wind of the condition of her place she will be under threat of eviction again but that is her choice.

Brenda


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## Tina (Oct 27, 2007)

Yeah, I do the sleeve thing, too, if there are only air dryers and no paper towels. I'm not touching that thing bare-handed, no way.

Traci, you co-worker does even more than some I've seen who claim to 'wash' their hands. A short, lame rinsing for a couple of seconds and then dry. They might as well not have bothered. It's not my business to say anything, so I don't, but at times I've really had to hold back from asking these non-washers what is wrong with them. They don't care that they've gotten tons of germs from others, or that they are passing on their own.

Woe to the place that doesn't leave a trashcan by the door, so I can use the towel to open the door and then drop it in the can, because at that point, the best I can do is to throw it in the direction of the trash can, but if it's all the way across the floor and I have no place to dispose of it, someone's going to end up having to pick it up. If it's a small trash can, I'll move it next to the door before washing so I won't have to litter. The smart places have started putting them by the door as a matter of course.

Hand sanitizer in my purse, hand sanitizer in my car -- it's everywhere. Queen of the hand sanitizer. Maybe all of this should have gone in the "in what ways are you eccentric?" thread.


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2007)

LillyBBBW said:


> Hey Shosh!
> 
> I have the wierdest kind of OCD. I'm not really a horder per se, but I have this fear of throwing stuff away. I think as soon as I toss that receipt or that 'thing' something is going to come up where I'll need it or I will suddenly find out what it goes to. My house is cluttered but it's an organized clutter if you know what I mean? I've got casual clothes, opera gowns, work clothes, club clothes, travel clothes, shoes. Because I'm involved in all of these insane activities and institutions I have a lot of stuff and memorobilia.
> 
> ...



Thanks Lily. I use those disinfectant wipes also, they are very handy. Meanwhile how fabulous that you own opera gowns.
Peace.


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## Jane (Oct 27, 2007)

Okay, one must have exposure to build up immunities.

That being said, I don't go out and roll around in the dirt, but whenever possible I avoid using "antibacterial" soaps because of the super-bugs they are going to end up creating.

Yep, ya'll are WEIRD. And yes, I use the paper towel to turn everything in a strange bathroom. Don't judge me.


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2007)

BBWDREAMLOVER said:


> OMG NO WAY!!
> Me and my son are total neat/clean freaks and I've known people like that myself. I refused to go visit them......it's just gross! I could never understand how someone could sit in their home, look around and see such grossness and be totally ok with it.
> As far as what to do...I confronted my friend, I just out right asked her "don't you think your house is kind of gross?"
> She to my shock replied "yea I do" she was just too lazy to care. I'm pretty damn lazy myself I hate having to even get dressed but there is no way in hell I could live in filth. I don't think it's judgemantal at all......its your personal preference and thats why it's hard for you and me to understand.
> Plus some people are raised in homes like that and think it's ok. Some people are mentally off .........if you feel she doesn't have a mental disorder I say, say something. I did, do it tactfully you don't wanna hurt her feelings but voicing your concerns for one shows you care and your worried about her. True friends can help one another without the stupid catty crap and friends need to know you care and love them.



Thanks Rhonda. I am sure many people would find living in these kind of conditions to be intolerable, they just may not want to come forward and say it here for fear of taking heat like I have. I would not say anything nasty to this girl.
Other people may feel it is only my issue, but I believe that everybody needs to take reponsibility for their own life if they have the capacity to do so. If people are in your home they should not have to be subjected to such an unpleasant experience.

Rhonda I hope you are well and finding more peace in your heart daily. You have been through so much.
Susannah


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2007)

Jes said:


> Right. So ultimately, seeing your friend's house took you back to something in your childhood that was very, very difficult for you--loving someone whose house you couldn't bear to be in.
> Which means this experience triggered something in you and was about you, not so much the house of a friend you don't need to enter.
> You. Not her.
> Which is exactly what I was saying in the beginning, and something you out-of-hand rejected. I don't hate you Susannah and I'm not villifying you. I see something very 1, 2, 3 in what you said and that's what I'm reacting to.



Points understood and taken. Some of this are my issues but you cannot absolve a perfectly sane person from taking some personal resonsibility for how they live their life. 
Some of this is about her. To not acknowledge that is to be in denial.
I know that you don't hate me also.
Shosh


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## mossystate (Oct 27, 2007)

Jane said:


> Okay, one must have exposure to build up immunities.
> 
> That being said, I don't go out and roll around in the dirt, but whenever possible I avoid using "antibacterial" soaps because of the super-bugs they are going to end up creating.
> 
> Yep, ya'll are WEIRD. And yes, I use the paper towel to turn everything in a strange bathroom. Don't judge me.



..weirdo

My 8 year ( as of today..and when asked wherer she wanted to go for her BD dinner said..Benihana's..heh..we will be there with any remaining tourists in the city ) old niece has allergies where she has to have a shot once a month. She is also has to use kids' Advair. While some things a kid is just born with, her allergy doc was talking to my sister and she said that spending years of her childhood on farms helped to strengthen her immune system. The doctor laughed and said that he wants to take his own kids out to a farm and roll them around in the manure. Ok, he was exagerating, but, yeah, using too many grime fighters does more harm than good, in the long run.


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## Risible (Oct 27, 2007)

mossystate said:


> ..weirdo
> 
> My 8 year ( as of today..and when asked wherer she wanted to go for her BD dinner said..Benihana's..heh..we will be there with any remaining tourists in the city ) old niece has allergies where she has to have a shot once a month. She is also has to use kids' Advair. While some things a kid is just born with, her allergy doc was talking to my sister and she said that spending years of her childhood on farms helped to strengthen her immune system. The doctor laughed and said that he wants to take his own kids out to a farm and roll them around in the manure. Ok, he was exagerating, but, yeah, using too many grime fighters does more harm than good, in the long run.



I'm a big fan of author James Herriot, the Yorkshire veterinarian who penned his memoirs in the 70s and 80s, under the collective name of "All Creatures Great and Small." In several of his books, the local "knacker" (renderer in these parts) figures into the story. Herriot would usually mention the knacker sitting on the carcass eating a nice onion-and-cheese sandwich with his unwashed hands covered with "nameless tissues." Herriot would admire the health and fitness of the knacker, at the same time wondering if his health was due to an unusually strong immune system (back in his day [he practiced in the 30s, 40s and 50s] there wasn't much known about the immune system.) Herriot would also sometimes mention the knacker's extremely healthy children, playing amongst and with the bones and heaps of bone dust that were in the yard of their home.

As for myself, I have a healthy respect for germs in public places and wash those hands often and NEVER touch my mucous membranes if my hands have been in contact with other people and things. I'm not crazy about using antibacterials at home, however, and Bio and I are starting to look at organic cleaners and cleaning systems that are friendlier to the environment.


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## Shosh (Oct 27, 2007)

Risible said:


> I'm a big fan of author James Herriot, the Yorkshire veterinarian who penned his memoirs in the 70s and 80s, under the collective name of "All Creatures Great and Small." In several of his books, the local "knacker" (renderer in these parts) figures into the story. Herriot would usually mention the knacker sitting on the carcass eating a nice onion-and-cheese sandwich with his unwashed hands covered with "nameless tissues." Herriot would admire the health and fitness of the knacker, at the same time wondering if his health was due to an unusually strong immune system (back in his day [he practiced in the 30s, 40s and 50s] there wasn't much known about the immune system.) Herriot would also sometimes mention the knacker's extremely healthy children, playing amongst and with the bones and heaps of bone dust that were in the yard of their home.
> 
> As for myself, I have a healthy respect for germs in public places and wash those hands often and NEVER touch my mucous membranes if my hands have been in contact with other people and things. I'm not crazy about using antibacterials at home, however, and Bio and I are starting to look at organic cleaners and cleaning systems that are friendlier to the environment.



Dee can you let us know about any good products etc that you find out about. As I already have damage to my nervous system from the MS I probably should not be using harsh chemicals that could be inhaled accidently while they are being used.
Thanks


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## Risible (Oct 27, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Dee can you let us know about any good products etc that you find out about. As I already have damage to my nervous system from the MS I probably should not be using harsh chemicals that could be inhaled accidently while they are being used.
> Thanks



Yeah, Shosh, organic products are just starting to be seen at local grocery stores. It's very exciting (to me and Bio, at least . We're weird like that.) I've used a brand of dishwashing liquid called Method that I really like. It did an effective job on the ol' grease. We also use it in our travel trailer, which stores potable and waste (gray water - from the sinks and shower, and black water - from the toilet) water in tanks. We add a liquid containing enzymes to the gray and black tanks; the bugs aid in the breakdown of waste material in a completely organic way. We have to be careful about putting antibacterial agents down the sink or shower drains, as the antibacterial stuff kills the good bugs.

I've used a couple of other Method products with good results. I wasn't impressed by their candles, though.

I've also used various Mrs. Meyer's organic products, with similarly good results.


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## biodieselman (Oct 27, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Dee can you let us know about any good products etc that you find out about. As I already have damage to my nervous system from the MS I probably should not be using harsh chemicals that could be inhaled accidently while they are being used.
> Thanks



I'm going to direct you to this website that I refer to often myself, treehugger.com. All sorts of info about the green lifestyle. Check out this page in particular. Enter in the type of cleaning needed (for dirt, grease, etc.,) and what surface plus what kind of equipment you'll be using (manual wipe for most housecleaning chores) and it'll give you info on different products that can be used.

Check out this page on treehugger for green cleaning tips.


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## tonynyc (Oct 27, 2007)

I think for me both a clean kitchen and a clean bathroom is important. My behavior was definitely influenced by both my parents and living in the city [the thought of leaving unclean dishes in the sink overnight ]. 

But as previously mentioned you need to build your immune system. Some germs are ok. It's one think to know about certain folks whose level of "cleanseliness" may not be to your specific standards.

On the other hand one would go extremely paranoid with the "unknown" stuff that you have to deal with when out in public (impurities FDA allows in Food processing- public payphones- public headsets at bookstores- handling money- folks handling your food at the resturant etc. etc. )


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## Tina (Oct 27, 2007)

Jane said:


> That being said, I don't go out and roll around in the dirt, but whenever possible I avoid using "antibacterial" soaps because of the super-bugs they are going to end up creating.


I agree; they are a bad idea. That said, I do use that waterless hand-washing stuff all the time. Used it after going to Trader Joe's today and holding the cart. Then again, I also have immune system and inflammitory stuff going on, so I try as much as possible not to get sick, because when I do, it usually hits me harder and hangs on longer than before I had these problems.


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## Jane (Oct 27, 2007)

My sister was sick all the time as a small child. My mother kept her clean, clean, clean. Finally the doctor told her, "Would you let this child eat a little dirt so her body can learn to handle SOMETHING without going crazy?"

That was never a problem with me. She could not have kept me away from mudpies.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 27, 2007)

Jane said:


> Okay, one must have exposure to build up immunities.
> 
> That being said, I don't go out and roll around in the dirt, but whenever possible I avoid using "antibacterial" soaps because of the super-bugs they are going to end up creating.
> 
> Yep, ya'll are WEIRD. And yes, I use the paper towel to turn everything in a strange bathroom. Don't judge me.



I'm with you, Jane. Both on the immunity thing and with using a paper towel to turn stuff on in public bathrooms. Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to find NON antibacterial liquid soap? We refuse to use anything with Triclosan because it increases resistance of certain strains of e-coli but just about everything antibacterial has it. So what I've opted to do finally is get sweet smelling shower gel and use THAT in my liquid soap pumpers. 

One thing to keep in mind with all this talk of "Bacteria, bad. Beddy beddy bad" is that our skin is loaded with beneficial bacteria that protects us from a lot of the topical stuff. But that beneficial bacteria is washed off with harsh cleansers, along with the bad stuff which may or may not get into our bodies. Also, the very best way to get bugs into your body through your skin is through open wounds. So be careful with the hand washing, since it's easy to get cracks and stuff from washing your hands too much, particularly if you use harsh chemicals. So yes, wash your hands, by all means, but don't let them get too dry.

I'm a big fan of Avaguard. It's a hand sanitizer that we use at the hospital and it actually dries out my skin way LESS than soap and water. So I do a big scrub at the beginning and end of my shift, before and after eating or using the loo or obviously if I get goobers on me, but the rest of the time a couple pumps of Avaguard works great. I also have a little bottle that I keep in the car. It's marvelous stuff and has been shown, in studies, to be as effective as hand washing. 

But yeah, hand washing is great. Let's just not go too hog wild with it, and remember that adequate rest and good nutrition are also important to fighting the nasties. Stuff WILL get into our bodies, but what's the best defense? A rockin' immune system.


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## BigBeautifulMe (Oct 27, 2007)

Risible,
I grew up reading anything I could get my grubby little hands on. My parents happened to have the whole book series you're talking about. I loved James Herriot. I devoured his books, one by one, and still pick up a children's book now and then that he wrote - anything I can find that's new to me.  I love his stories. They're just beautiful.


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## RevolOggerp (Oct 28, 2007)

I don't think I could live in a place like that.

Yes, I have a messy bedroom... but not THAT messy. When it comes to food, I always throw away food-related stuff. With animals, I always clean up after them.

I do have a friend who had to deal with a roommate who almost never cleaned up after his cats. Jeez...


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## Tina (Oct 28, 2007)

Miss Vickie said:


> But yeah, hand washing is great. Let's just not go too hog wild with it, and remember that adequate rest and good nutrition are also important to fighting the nasties. Stuff WILL get into our bodies, but what's the best defense? A rockin' immune system.


I hear that the best thing to do after washing hands is to use a good lotion, because lotion can actually act as a barrier that can help prevent the bacteria from getting into the skin. Dunno how credible that info is, but it made sense.


BigBeautifulMe said:


> Risible,
> I grew up reading anything I could get my grubby little hands on. My parents happened to have the whole book series you're talking about. I loved James Herriot. I devoured his books, one by one, and still pick up a children's book now and then that he wrote - anything I can find that's new to me.  I love his stories. They're just beautiful.


Yes, they are, BBMe. I grew up reading him, too, and he is one of my faves. His books are excellent reads for those who love aminals in particular.


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## Jack Skellington (Oct 28, 2007)

Has anyone else seen the TV show How Clean is your House? It never ceases to amaze me people actually live like that. _Shudder_, nasty, nasty business.


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## Santaclear (Oct 28, 2007)

Jack Skellington said:


> Has anyone else seen the TV show How Clean is your House? It never ceases to amaze me people actually live like that. _Shudder_, nasty, nasty business.



You mean the people who watch it or the people in the show?

*CRASH!*


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## toni (Oct 28, 2007)

WOW!  I think the bathroom behavior is a bit extreme. I have used all types of public restrooms and have yet to catch anything. There are so many places that are considered breeding grounds for germs, are we to walk around life afraid to touch anything?


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## Shosh (Oct 28, 2007)

biodieselman said:


> I'm going to direct you to this website that I refer to often myself, treehugger.com. All sorts of info about the green lifestyle. Check out this page in particular. Enter in the type of cleaning needed (for dirt, grease, etc.,) and what surface plus what kind of equipment you'll be using (manual wipe for most housecleaning chores) and it'll give you info on different products that can be used.
> 
> Check out this page on treehugger for green cleaning tips.



Bio thank you very much for that info. I shall fully investigate it.


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## LillyBBBW (Oct 29, 2007)

Susannah said:


> Thanks Lily. I use those disinfectant wipes also, they are very handy. Meanwhile how fabulous that you own opera gowns.
> Peace.



Yes Shosh. I work a dead end office job, I'm an opera singer and wedding singer, I go to the gym regularly and I guess you can add paysite model and fat activist to the list. I have so many clothes it is obscene. I could probaby develope a better system to organize but the place where I'm living has only one small closet and I'm moving out in June/July. It's not worth the trouble or the expense to fix anything. Also because I am a singer I am really paranoid about getting sick. For a while I had developed a reputation for getting sick and having to drop out of gigs that I had previously said yes to, a career killer. I don't want to be so high strung but I think my immune system has been through quite enough.


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## Leesa (Nov 1, 2007)

Susannah said:


> It really is not a cultural thing. As for being cruel this woman was horrible to me about my weight and delighted in it, but that is ok I guess.




When did *I* say that? 
I am DONE with this conversation!!


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## Mathias (Nov 1, 2007)

Another thing I've noticed as I've gotten older is that if my room has to be cleaned, I have to be the one who does it. All of my things have to be in a certian place otherwise I won't be able to find them.


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