# sad story



## SocialbFly (Oct 19, 2006)

I think many of you know i work in intensive care for pediatrics. we had an awful thing happen in our unit and i wanted to share it here. There is going to be a shielding of sex and info, due to protection of individual health info which i can't share.

we had a teenager who hung themselves and eventually died in our unit after they posted a pic of themselves on myspace and some other lovely people found the need to inform this person they found them "fat' (read into this unacceptable).

Now, while i am not saying it is only this that caused the child to kill themselves, it was a huge part of it, and the catalyst for this child's death. 

when are we, as a society, made up of a majority of fat people...going to rise up and say enough.

enough to laughing at people who are different in any way than you. 

enough of the bullying.

enough of the disrespect.

enough of tolerating the berating that society feels is ok.

Talk to your sons and daughters, let them know it is never acceptable to hurt another human with words. We have to find and make a stand at some point.

Talk to your kids too and let them know that if they feel sad or depressed, there are people to talk to. Teenage suicide is a huge killer of our kids.

thanks for letting me get this off my chest, it has been a heavy burden for two days now.


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## missaf (Oct 19, 2006)

Bfly, that is an awful ordeal to go through, for everyone involved  The loss of a child's life is the saddest thing on earth to me. 

I never thought of myself as a person who would work with kids, but now, 80% of my life is working with boys. More and more, every day, I see the changes in these little men and I see how important it is to be there for them -- in laughter, and tears, and struggles and joys. Your story only reminds me even more that while I think I'm getting the most blessing out of the deal, the boys are learning things that will keep them safe for a lifetime.


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## BBW Betty (Oct 19, 2006)

Oh, no.  I agree with missaf about a child's death being the saddest thing. Sending prayers to this teen's family.

I wonder if this was the first time they'd been called fat, or if they'd gone to myspace looking for acceptance they couldn't find elsewhere.


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## Tina (Oct 19, 2006)

Oh, Di, this is awful. You do such good work, but you see so many heartwrenching things, I really don't know where you 'put' this stuff in order to deal with it, sensitive woman that you are. I hope we can talk soon. I want to talk with you, okay?


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## liz (di-va) (Oct 19, 2006)

That is horrible to hear, but I'm still glad you posted it. It is heartbreaking and infuriating to think about that child's state of mind, that they'd do such a thing.... Galvanizing.


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## KuroBara (Oct 19, 2006)

And Enough of telling children "Well, children can be mean. Just ignore them." How many times did I hear this crap through my life? You know what? You cn never ignore, especially when it happens every day fo your life for years. Especially when you change schools and find the same mistreatment. There is no support system in the schools. Literally, this was how it was when I tried to stand up for myself, and I'm willing to be it wasn't just me: Kids tease--->tell parent--->ignore them or tell your teacher---->teacher: ignore them--> tell parents---> tell your principal----> tell principal--->tell your teacher

When are people going to realize schools should not be an obligatory torture chamber because "Kids are cruel?"


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## KnottyOne (Oct 19, 2006)

KuroBara said:


> And Enough of telling children "Well, children can be mean. Just ignore them." How many times did I hear this crap through my life? You know what? You cn never ignore, especially when it happens every day fo your life for years. Especially when you change schools and find the same mistreatment. There is no support system in the schools. Literally, this was how it was when I tried to stand up for myself, and I'm willing to be it wasn't just me: Kids tease--->tell parent--->ignore them or tell your teacher---->teacher: ignore them--> tell parents---> tell your principal----> tell principal--->tell your teacher
> 
> When are people going to realize schools should not be an obligatory torture chamber because "Kids are cruel?"



Yea, it is sad that school needs to be a trial by fire. And that there really is no form of support at all. I was really depressed from like... 7th to 11th grade, I wanted off this ride of life. I mean, having a disability and trying to fit in with everyone else, especially other teens, its fucking hard. But I wouldnt change the shit I went through for anything, I'm not gonna go rara about how it made me a better person, maybe it did, maybe it didnt, but it made me who I am, and I am damn proud of who I am. When a child can't make it through this it is really heartbreaking, it's just sad how we can't actually realize people are people. I also accept that nothing is gonna change in the future, I mean kids will always get picked on. Until we find a way to actually get everyone to love everyone else, nothin is gonna change.


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## VideoGamer (Oct 19, 2006)

Not to be a prick, but is there anybody here who seriously thinks that kids are ever going to stop picking on each other. 

Moreover....do we really WANT kids to be totally tame and docile?


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## metalheadFA (Oct 19, 2006)

> we had a teenager who hung themselves and eventually died in our unit after they posted a pic of themselves on myspace and some other lovely people found the need to inform this person they found them "fat' (read into this unacceptable).



On another aspect of your post its about time Myspace started to moderate itself better and get rid of these sad individuals who have nothing better to do than critisise other people. I know quite a few BBW models who have had trouble with these kind of prats and all the compliments in the world its the spite filled critisisms that tend to stick despite the fact it always comes from small minded cruel morons who need to get a life.


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## supersoup (Oct 19, 2006)

that is one reason i will never have a myspace page, that and i have no friends.


also, this kind of thing makes me physically ill. a very dear childhood friend of mine was in a wheel chair and kids like this drove her to the same thing...thankfully she survived it. i can't imagine what kind of home it is a child is raised in where this kind of behavior is acceptable. this is so sad.


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## fatgirlflyin (Oct 19, 2006)

Its very sad that this child felt there was no other options open to them. I had a friend when I was in middle school commit suicide and in the note he left behind he said he was driven to it by the same kind of bullying.

I work hard everyday to instill a high sense of self esteem in my children. I constantly tell them positive things, how smart they are, how nice they are, how good looking they are and things along those lines. I do this because I KNOW that kids can be cruel and I dont want my childrens sense of self to come from other kids opinions about them. I want them to know who they are, know the good things about who they are so that no ammount of kids bullying or teasing will cause them to feel that kind of dispair. 

On the other hand, I went through a similiar kind of teasing. I grew up in a poor family, clothing bought from second hand stores for several years. My parents weren't especially gushy with the I love yous and compliments and I never once considered ending my own life. 

So I am not all that sure that teasing and what not drives someone to suicide (I'm not a psychaitrist). I think that sometimes, some people are just more apt to go that route based on how their brain is wired.


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## NFA (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Not to be a prick, but is there anybody here who seriously thinks that kids are ever going to stop picking on each other.
> 
> Moreover....do we really WANT kids to be totally tame and docile?



That was you "not" being a prick? Its attitudes like this that have allowed bullying to become so dominating and abusive in recent years. Resignation is not a proper response to cruelty. CONGRATULATING the abuses as you seem to do when you suggest the alternative is timidity is even worse. The fact that something will happen anyway is not a reason to stop efforts to change things. Because you can make things better even if they are never going to be perfect. A culture of acceptance of bullying exists in our country and it needs to change or tragedies like this will keep happening. If that means some jerk-in-training is "docile", I'll gladly take that over some other child being emotionally scarred for years. I'll gladly take a tamed monster over a dead child. Its not about expecting perfection or enforcing niceness. Its about teaching children right from wrong and providing endangered kids with the positive and effective support they need.

There will always be murders. There will always be thefts. There will always been corruption. Explain to me why any of that is reason to give up fighting against such blights?


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## TallFatSue (Oct 19, 2006)

I can sure understand how that teenager felt because I was bullied a lot when as a girl. It really tore me up inside when the other kids called me Suzy Bigfoot or Whale Belly or worse because I was the big tall fat girl. Thank goodness I came to my senses and began to reject their taunts. The good thing was that I was something of a tomboy, and eventually realized I had a quick wit so I could turn around their insults and give better than I got -- and be funny about it. 

The bad thing was that the bullies simply moved on to an easier target.


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## Wagimawr (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Not to be a prick, but is there anybody here who seriously thinks that kids are ever going to stop picking on each other.
> 
> Moreover....do we really WANT kids to be totally tame and docile?


No, we just don't want them to treat each other like shit.


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## Dark_Hart (Oct 19, 2006)

ohhh this is sad


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## SexxyBBW69 (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Not to be a prick, but is there anybody here who seriously thinks that kids are ever going to stop picking on each other.
> 
> Moreover....do we really WANT kids to be totally tame and docile?



Well lets see it starts with the adults teaching their children to be kind an compassionate human beings. Its adults like you that make it accpetable for children to do this.
& see that is why children do it because their parents are just the same way..

what a wonderful world we live in......


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## VideoGamer (Oct 19, 2006)

NFA said:


> That was you "not" being a prick? Its attitudes like this that have allowed bullying to become so dominating and abusive in recent years. Resignation is not a proper response to cruelty. CONGRATULATING the abuses as you seem to do when you suggest the alternative is timidity is even worse. The fact that something will happen anyway is not a reason to stop efforts to change things. Because you can make things better even if they are never going to be perfect. A culture of acceptance of bullying exists in our country and it needs to change or tragedies like this will keep happening. If that means some jerk-in-training is "docile", I'll gladly take that over some other child being emotionally scarred for years. I'll gladly take a tamed monster over a dead child. Its not about expecting perfection or enforcing niceness. Its about teaching children right from wrong and providing endangered kids with the positive and effective support they need.
> 
> There will always be murders. There will always be thefts. There will always been corruption. Explain to me why any of that is reason to give up fighting against such blights?



You're pretty much calling all children bigots since pretty much every single kid in the world teases other kids.

It's easy for us to all hop onto our moral high-horses and start moralizing and condemning everybody. We don't know the context, we don't know the facts, we just start moralizing and it makes us look like superior beings. 

But you know what? I'm going to go ahead and trust liberty and human beings to work stuff out rather than call for some government bureaucracy to start jailing children who are deemed "bullies" or to forcefully medicate or even to throw them into some sort of "sensitivity training". Every human being should learn - through education but mostly by example - the importance of civility and respect. 

But kids should be allowed to be kids. And a bunch of pompous adults pointing fingers and calling them bullies and murderers isn't going to achieve too much other than to make them paranoid and freakishly defensive as they grow through life.


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## CuteyChubb (Oct 19, 2006)

Horrible. I am sorry you had to go through that Social. Just horrible.


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## CuteyChubb (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> You're pretty much calling all children bigots since pretty much every single kid in the world teases other kids.
> 
> .



That's bullshit. Sounds like maybe you were a teaser. Not all kids do that.


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## Wagimawr (Oct 19, 2006)

Especially because if every kid teased, who would be left to be teased?


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## VideoGamer (Oct 19, 2006)

SexxyBBW69 said:


> Well lets see it starts with the adults teaching their children to be kind an compassionate human beings. Its adults like you that make it accpetable for children to do this.
> & see that is why children do it because their parents are just the same way..
> 
> what a wonderful world we live in......



Stating the obvious is supposed to be a sign of a lazy mind, but I'll go ahead and state it anyway: you don't know any of the parties involved here nor do you know me. So it seems just a tiny bit inappropriate for you to start describing all of our characteristics and how we treat kids.

Hey, many schools are forcefully medicating boys already and I'm sure that that trend will just continue to grow. So if it's a timid, docile world of kids you want - if you want them to be pets more than young people - just hold on for another generation or two and I'm sure that the average playground will be about as peaceful as a graveyard.


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## CuteyChubb (Oct 19, 2006)

SocialbFly said:


> we had a teenager who hung themselves and eventually died in our unit after they posted a pic of themselves on myspace and some other lovely people found the need to inform this person they found them "fat' (read into this unacceptable).


I just re-read this. She never said it was a "kid". We just all assumed it was. How very disgusting if it was NOT EVEN a kid.


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## VideoGamer (Oct 19, 2006)

CuteyChubb said:


> I just re-read this. She never said it was a "kid". We just all assumed it was. How very disgusting if it was NOT EVEN a kid.



My fault! I'm not a big fan of the emoticons but sometimes there's just no other way to express how you feel: :doh: 

That was lazy reading on my part. I guess I just had this association of youths and internet harassment based on all the pop news articles I've seen talk about it. Totally my fault.


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## NFA (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> You're pretty much calling all children bigots since pretty much every single kid in the world teases other kids.



No. I'm saying children are children and adults are adults. Its the responsibility of ADULTS to teach CHILDREN how to behave. It is the responsibility of adults to teach children not to hate people because they are different. It is the responsibility of adults to teach children to respect people and to treat others as they want to be treated themselves. It is the responsibility of adults to teach children not to resort to violence or cruelty.

You want to disclaim any such responsibility. To simply tolerate the behavior with the cry of "kids will be kids". Much as some justify sexism with the cry, "boys will be boys." You want to cheer on the cruel and mean ways children will sometimes behave, falsely claiming the only options are unrelenting cruelty and a medicated stupor. Such an attitude results not in being "hands off", but rather in actively coddling and encouraging the bullying and cruelty. This is wrong. Children will do these things because they are only children. We adults have no excuse to look on and do nothing.


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## VideoGamer (Oct 19, 2006)

NFA said:


> You want to disclaim any such responsibility. To simply tolerate the behavior with the cry of "kids will be kids". Much as some justify sexism with the cry, "boys will be boys." You want to cheer on the cruel and mean ways children will sometimes behave, falsely claiming the only options are unrelenting cruelty and a medicated stupor. Such an attitude results not in being "hands off", but rather in actively coddling and encouraging the bullying and cruelty. This is wrong. Children will do these things because they are only children. We adults have no excuse to look on and do nothing.



In that case, I suggest that you impose this on your own kids when you have children of your own. Until then, maybe you should just try to respect children and parents.

And nobody ever said anything about "coddling" bad behavior. My idea was pretty plain: pompous moralizing isn't good parenting or good policy.


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## KnottyOne (Oct 19, 2006)

I think that it is responsibilty of parents and elders in general. Medication doesnt work, and simply telling them that it is wrong doesnt do that much either. I know alot of older people, me included who rip on friends and such. It's all in good fun and hell, I get upset when the dont retaliate with something just as brutal. I dont want people to think that there are subjects "to sensitive" to talk about. But at the same time, I can see how this is a problem, I see my brother and his friends doing the same, they look up to us, they see us rip on each other, they do the same. But again, they do it in good fun. Its when parents dont teach kids how much that even "just messing around" can hurt, then problem occurs. We as adults need to recognize how we influence the children and teens and stop it there. It is just as much our responsibilty as theirs to be kind to each other.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> In that case, I suggest that you impose this on your own kids when you have children of your own. Until then, maybe you should just try to respect children and parents.
> 
> And nobody ever said anything about "coddling" bad behavior. My idea was pretty plain: pompous moralizing isn't good parenting or good policy.



Um. Are you a parent? I am. Of teenagers. Three of them. Two girls in fact, and the pressure to be thin and beautiful is worse than ever. My daughter had a successful, stunning concert last night; she's an accomplist cellist, a fabulous actress, and talented artist with a sweet, funny, gorgeous boyfriend who adores her. And she's beautiful, even in the conventional sense -- she's tall and willowy, with long thick hair, and has stunning eyes. She gets told she should model a LOT, because she's so pretty. And yet she was in tears last night. Why? Because the other girls are thinner, and smaller, and "prettier". Nothing her dad, her boyfriend or myself could tell her would make her feel that she was "less than" because she's not a size 0. She cares much more about what her peers think than her parents, or even her boyfriend. 

How sad that our children judge each other, and themselves, this way and this harshly. And how sad that this continues into adulthood. I don't have the answers, but being outraged and sad can't hurt -- and it may just give us the impetus to help, although how, I don't know, because I think it's a larger societal problem.

You seem to have lots of criticisms, VG. How about offering suggestions, instead of tearing down everyone else?


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 19, 2006)

NFA said:


> No. I'm saying children are children and adults are adults. Its the responsibility of ADULTS to teach CHILDREN how to behave. It is the responsibility of adults to teach children not to hate people because they are different. It is the responsibility of adults to teach children to respect people and to treat others as they want to be treated themselves. It is the responsibility of adults to teach children not to resort to violence or cruelty.



We disagree a lot, you and I, but I agree with you completely in this case. And it needs to start really really young, in preschool or earlier, teaching them empathy and to apologize for hurting anyone, even by accident.


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## love dubh (Oct 19, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> We disagree a lot, you and I, but I agree with you completely in this case. And it needs to start really really young, in preschool or earlier, teaching them empathy and to apologize for hurting anyone, even by accident.



Adults really don't realize how simple it is to tell a child, "Hey, you hurt so-and-so's feelings when you called them 'x.' You wouldn't want them to call you that, would you? How do you think they feel?" Children are naturally going to want to help, to ameliorate whatever wrong they did. They taunt for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that they are not capable of apologizing.

And this is NOT "putting children into a medicated stupor," nor is it "pompous moralizing," as VideoGamer called it. It's teaching children a few little things called RESPECT and EMPATHY. It's teaching our next generation to be more conscientious, compassionate HUMAN BEINGS. It's teaching boys that girls are their equals; it's teaching whites that blacks, hispanics, asians et. al are their equals; it's teaching thin children that fat children are their equals. 

*It's teaching children that skin color, genetalia and weight will NOT be tolerated as the basis for discrimination, taunting or condescension. *

During the 50s and 60s, blacks fought for their right to be viewed AND treated AS EQUAL to whites. That movement taught whites that their "WAY OF LIFE" would not be tolerated any longer. Just because _white supremacy_ went on for as long as it did, did not make it correct. 

Just because fat discrimination and sexism have gone on for this long, doesn't make them right.

_This_ is what makes me want to go into a position of teaching. To combat the vitriol poured out by sources like the television, parents, bigots and defenders of "but it's gone on for so long, it must be natural," such as VideoGamer.

*EDIT*: And no, I'm NOT a liberal.


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## Still a Skye fan (Oct 19, 2006)

SocialbFly said:


> I think many of you know i work in intensive care for pediatrics. we had an awful thing happen in our unit and i wanted to share it here. There is going to be a shielding of sex and info, due to protection of individual health info which i can't share.
> 
> we had a teenager who hung themselves and eventually died in our unit after they posted a pic of themselves on myspace and some other lovely people found the need to inform this person they found them "fat' (read into this unacceptable).
> 
> ...




Omigoodness!

I can only say that I totally agree with your words and my condolences to this teen's family.


Dennis


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 19, 2006)

maire dubh said:


> Adults really don't realize how simple it is to tell a child, "Hey, you hurt so-and-so's feelings when you called them 'x.' You wouldn't want them to call you that, would you? How do you think they feel?" Children are naturally going to want to help, to ameliorate whatever wrong they did. They taunt for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that they are not capable of apologizing.



True. I remember when my kids were little, one of the things I learned from their preschool teacher was this. Suppose Suzie took a My Little Pony away from Sallie, and Sallie got upset and sat off in the corner by herself, crying. * What this amazing teacher would do is go up to Suzie and say, "Look at Sallie. See how sad she looks? She's so sad because you took that toy away from her. I bet she'd be happy if you said you were sorry and shared it with her. Let's find out. " Then the kid would toddle over, say she was sorry, the girls would hug and then share the toy, or else leave the toy and go off and play Chutes and Ladders together. It was awesome to see, over and over again, and became a part of my parenting skills box. Now that they're older, and my daughter has trouble with a friend, I tell her "You have the power to make your friends feel loved and supported -- or trashed and sad. Which are you going to choose?" She usually chooses the former, although, like her mother, has also chosen the latter as well. 

This is hardly putting kids in a stupor. What it does do, however, is empower them with the right words and actions, and teach them that words have consequences. My 19 year old son says the most important things his stepdad and I have taught him are a) humility, and b) how to apologize. He's dealing with his peers now who have been taught neither, and he says it's sometimes very challenging.

Oh, and I *am* a liberal. 

*The names have been changed to protect the innocent, and truly, since it was Seattle, the names would be much different -- names like Sunshine and Ethan were much more common than the mundane Sallie and Suzie.


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## elle camino (Oct 19, 2006)

yes, it's the responsibility of parents to try their best to teach their children to be kind and compassionate. of course it is. but it's ALSO a parent's responsibility to teach their children to stand up to whatever negativity they may encounter from their peers, and to be confident enough with themselves to not let teasing get to them. 
i was a fat kid. i got more than my fair share of teasing throughout my middle school/high school career, and sure it bummed me out, but i would have had to be a total self-centered moron to not realize that EVERYONE was being made fun of for _some_thing, at that point. i got it because i was fat, other people got it because they wore weird clothes, other people got it because they were bad at kickball, etc etc etc on down the line. i can sit here and act like my plight was somehow worse than every other kid's, but it wasn't. i realized that at the time, and i attribute that entirely to the fact that my mom taught me from a very young age that you can't please everyone, and as long as *i* was happy with myself, i was right where i needed to be. 
we can huff and puff all we want about how things should be, in a perfect world where all children are sweet little angels who never utter a cross word about anyone else, or we can base ourselves in reality. kids WILL be kids, kids WILL tease each other, and the best thing parents can do is teach their children that other people's negative opinions are a fact of life, and nowhere near worth hating or killing yourself over.


the fact that a few comments on this kid's myspace made him/her snap in such an extreme way, seems to indicate that there was probably a serious lack of spine-building (so to speak) in this kid's emotional development. imho, that's the parent's fault, plain and simple.


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## missaf (Oct 19, 2006)

More and more, kids are being allowed to be bullies, and with so many of them breaking the rules, having parents that don't care (or are oblivious), and overwhelmed teachers trying to not only educate but provide social intervention, children slip through the cracks.

Twice my son has come to me with stories of bullies at school. Both were in first grade, and both have been suspended from school because they are constanly threatening or beating other children. First grade! And when the physical beatings cease, the verbal beatings continue.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 19, 2006)

missaf said:


> More and more, kids are being allowed to be bullies, and with so many of them breaking the rules, having parents that don't care (or are oblivious), and overwhelmed teachers trying to not only educate but provide social intervention, children slip through the cracks.



Do you think it's any worse than when we were kids, Missaf? I'm still of two minds about that. I remember being teased but it seems like there's a particular viciousness to it now that I don't remember back then. Or maybe I'm just an overprotective mom. 

I will say that at least there's more attention being paid to physical abuse and unwelcome touching. This one boy in her math class keeps poking my daughter's stomach making comments about her (nonexistant -- the kid's a beanpole) fat. She's told him to stop touching her, and she even went to the teacher, and he keeps doing it. Or rather, he did. One email to the teacher by me put a stop to it. When I was a kid and was touched inappropriately, the administration at my school did exactly diddly.


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## Les Toil (Oct 19, 2006)

missaf said:


> More and more, kids are being allowed to be bullies, and with so many of them breaking the rules, having parents that don't care (or are oblivious)



Hi MissAF. Much agreed. And bear in mind there's the neo-liberal type parents that I'm surrounded by here in the Bay Area (and believe me, I know. I'm as neo-liberal as they come), that think the best type of parenting is to expose your child to all aspects of the ways of the world and then let them make their own decisions as to how they should conduct themselves in difficult situations. These parents have an abject fear of "imposing" their ethics upon their kids and would prefer their children use their own common sense as to how to deal with a situation. These silly earth families will let their offspring rip each other's hair out in an argument and tell you, "It's best the children work it out amongst themselves". They'll tell them the pros and cons of life and then leave it to the kids to come to their own conclusion. This is why when I go into a supermarket I'll see little five-year-old Asreal-Moonshpere yell at her mother "I HATE YOU AND I WISH YOU WERE DEAD!!" at the top of her lungs. But then you'll see a little African-American child will sob for a can of soda and one quick sinister look from dad will shut that child up faster than lightening. Not saying one method is worse than the other, but it's just adding to the notion that many parents nowadays don't know a goddamfuckin' thing about raising children and instilling a sense of right and wrong. 

Bullies friggin' SUCK and I attribute it mostly to the parents.


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## SexxyBBW69 (Oct 19, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> if you want them to be pets more than young people - just hold on for another generation or two and I'm sure that the average playground will be about as peaceful as a graveyard.



A child who teases or makes fun of another child is not being a young person......... 
& your saying the only way to stop a child from teasing another is medication??
WOW gee so basically it's not the parents responsiblity to raise a child that being mean or teasing someone is wrong..

& from your replies I dont have to know you to see how you quite possible can be but Its really not worth it for me to argue... 

Im done Have a Great DAY


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## Les Toil (Oct 19, 2006)

Miss Vickie said:


> One email to the teacher by me put a stop to it. When I was a kid and was touched inappropriately, the administration at my school did exactly diddly.



Hiya Vicks. I guess it all depends on the school. My teenage niece always reminds me her school's administration is just not the least bit hands-on enough to take action against bullies (in other words, they're either scared or they don't care). Where as when I was a kid, a parent's phone call to the principal would guarantee immediate action (although it would also guarantee the victim kid getting his ass whipped by the chastised bully later after school). And of course back in my mom's day, any form of bullying would be dealt with with a VERY swift hand from the teacher her/himself .

BTW, you look gorgeous in your latest avatar, Bunny woman.


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## missaf (Oct 19, 2006)

I think it's both more prevalent AND more vicious than it used to be. I was never physically assaulted at school, but my son's sure getting it. Maybe because there might be a gender difference - girls are more verbal, boys are more physical (maybe that's why I'm a tomboy, boys are far more less verbal in their insults) . I would venture to guess, though, it's not that easy to define.

The parenting style I'm becoming more familiar with is that of kinda what Les brought up. We are not parents per se, we are facilitators of a journey through life that will expose children to the world and help them make their own choices. While I agree with kids making their own choices, we will quickly become a moral-less society if we don't instill those values in our children.

Yes, I encourage my son to make good choices, but I also give him the tools to make those choices, not present him a minefield of information and situations where he has to wade into it and make horrible decisions early on in life. Without those tools, he won't be able to make good, sound and affirming choices in his own life. So now, when he sees a bully hurting someone else, he sticks up for the kids who don't know how, and he's not afraid to give a bully the what for with a leader in the school system. It's that empowerment that you don't have to put up with a bully that should also be taught in the home, so that bullies are outnumbered and will feel the good kind of peer pressure to conform.

Without more and more parents actually hands on teaching their children the tools they need to handle these situations, we're going to see this problem, and school shootings, and suicides, and drug abuse and and and and... it will all continue to get worse.


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## supersoup (Oct 19, 2006)

it's tragic.

the death shouldn't have happened, regardless of the kid being confident or not.

teach your kids right from wrong. don't be a bigoted dickhead when it comes to raising your babies.

be nice, chillax, and the world will be a better place.

the end.


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## sean7 (Oct 20, 2006)

I think that a combination of the two needs to be worked out, because there will be two extremes. If bullying and teasing continues then it obviously doesn't do well for the kids confidence.

On the other hand, and I think this is what VG and elle camino are saying, is that kids themselves need to be strong individuals. It gets to the point where anything someone says can be misinterpreted as an insult, it's all a matter of perspective. I think that a large component of size acceptance today stems from the fact that many people on this board are mentally strong to say, 'Ya I'm fat...so?'....It's this kind of character that needs to be bred into today's young kids. We need to stick up for ourselves, and for each other.

Bullying does not go away when the bully gets punished by a teacher. It comes from strength in numbers. And that is where the parent teaches strong moral values AND develops a tough character.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 20, 2006)

i have to say i totally disagree with the last couple of statements from a couple of people. 

yes, you have to have stregnth of character. is the way to do that at the end of a bat? does a bat get you what you need?? well, words are no less hurtful...how many words does a person have to endure before they arfe considered strong, or strong of character. ten? 100, 1000?? when do you feel they are resilient enough to be considered strong?

kids face so much these days, you should never have to face the comments about yourself...this person was not huge like me, they weighed around 170 lbs, but yet this person felt bad enough about themselves, to kill themselves. yes, there is more to the story, but the primary issue is society badgering people about the things that make us different.

here is my story. after i was in australia for a year, during which time i heard only one comment regarding my size...i was in the usa for not even 15 minutes, i was standing in line in immigration...and two people who were far enough away from me to be heard but not close enough to smack...said, "ohhh look at THAT, how would you like THAT in the purple sitting next to you on the plane?"

not only was i not acceptable to them, but they labled me a non person, i was no longer a she, i was a that...so, i am resilient enough to still be here, but did that leave a scar on me? YOU BET!!! did it make me wonder why i was back here in the usa, where we have tons of rights, but no self control.,,you bet....

no one...i repeat...NO ONE has the right to make you feel any less than the person you are, i dont care who you are...even a person who has smacked their lover with their baby has a story to tell, you might not like it, it may make you sick, but it is their story to tell.

at some point we have to question what makes people think that you need to be toughened up, so lets call you a fat pig and see how you feel then, are you tougher...do you feel better, does it make you feel bigger to call someone a name that makes you less....

to me, it just makes you small. no matter how big you are.


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## sean7 (Oct 20, 2006)

SocialbFly said:


> i have to say i totally disagree with the last couple of statements from a couple of people.
> 
> yes, you have to have stregnth of character. is the way to do that at the end of a bat? does a bat get you what you need?? well, words are no less hurtful...how many words does a person have to endure before they arfe considered strong, or strong of character. ten? 100, 1000?? when do you feel they are resilient enough to be considered strong?



Strength is not measured in numbers or words, it's measured by actions and leading by example: being a good role model. There are times when you have to fight your own battles, and times when you help others through your own strength of character. You motivate others through your own actions. You set an example, that, 'if he/she can stick up for his/herself, why can't I?'

And again, thats why I said there needs to be a combination of good moral teachings, as well as a strong character.



SocialbFly said:


> at some point we have to question what makes people think that you need to be toughened up, so lets call you a fat pig and see how you feel then, are you tougher...do you feel better, does it make you feel bigger to call someone a name that makes you less....



Because we humans are flawed. Anywhere you go, there will be that one person that loves to put down people. How do you handle them?


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## The Obstreperous Ms. J (Oct 20, 2006)

That is quite a sad story, and I hope that anyone who finds themselves in the space where they need to take their life, that they talk to someone and get the help that they need.

I certainly woudn't be here if it wasn't for a teacher who was looking after me and helped me out and see the value in myself.

I am eternally greatful to her.


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## elle camino (Oct 20, 2006)

sean7 said:


> On the other hand, and I think this is what VG and elle camino are saying, is that kids themselves need to be strong individuals. It gets to the point where anything someone says can be misinterpreted as an insult, it's all a matter of perspective. I think that a large component of size acceptance today stems from the fact that many people on this board are mentally strong to say, 'Ya I'm fat...so?'....It's this kind of character that needs to be bred into today's young kids. We need to stick up for ourselves, and for each other.


yes, exactly. thank you. 
and furthermore, i call bullshit on anyone who says that kids are somehow incapable of that kind of fortitude. i was, and i know plenty of other kids who had it a lot worse than me, and lived through it. 
i'm in no way saying that this story is not heartbreaking, or that i don't feel for the kid or the family. i AM saying that what i _personally _find the _most_ heartbreaking about the whole thing, is that apparantly this kid was never taught that everyone has to take their knocks, and that your self-image doesn't amount to the comments on your myspace page.


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## VideoGamer (Oct 20, 2006)

SexxyBBW69 said:


> A child who teases or makes fun of another child is not being a young person.........
> & your saying the only way to stop a child from teasing another is medication??
> WOW gee so basically it's not the parents responsiblity to raise a child that being mean or teasing someone is wrong..
> 
> ...



Man, I really didn't expect to get shunned when I wrote something as innocuous as I did.

It's totally assumed that parents should try to teach their kids respect for the feelings of others. In fact, it's so much common sense that I didn't think that anybody would bother debating the point. But normally when grown-ups start pompously talking about "feelings" and "bullies" that means there are more bureaucrats typing up new laws that'll send Little Timmy to prison for saying some girl has cooties.


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## missaf (Oct 20, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Man, I really didn't expect to get shunned when I wrote something as innocuous as I did.
> 
> It's totally assumed that parents should try to teach their kids respect for the feelings of others. In fact, it's so much common sense that I didn't think that anybody would bother debating the point. But normally when grown-ups start pompously talking about "feelings" and "bullies" that means there are more bureaucrats typing up new laws that'll send Little Timmy to prison for saying some girl has cooties.


 
Unfortunately, common sense is a fleeting trait in this day and age. Many parents do not understand the concepts of respect, fair play, the golden rule, etiquette, chivalry or even simple common courteosy. 

Feelings and bullies are all important discussions. From first hand and immediate knowledge, feelings are incredibly important to our children. They can make our break a day in their lives that will remain in their minds forever. 

My son watched a child die on the playground at school today, all because the kid refused to play by the rules, he was injured, and will never wake up again to play on the playground with his fellow students. Had that child's parents had the nerve to instill the importance of the rules and why to follow them, about 100 kids wouldn't be struggling to come to grips with a child dying on their playground for no reason but pig headedness.


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## Tina (Oct 20, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Man, I really didn't expect to get shunned when I wrote something as innocuous as I did.
> 
> It's totally assumed that parents should try to teach their kids respect for the feelings of others. In fact, it's so much common sense that I didn't think that anybody would bother debating the point. But normally when grown-ups start pompously talking about "feelings" and "bullies" that means there are more bureaucrats typing up new laws that'll send Little Timmy to prison for saying some girl has cooties.


VG, I'm guessing you didn't grow up fat. And perhaps you weren't the object of cruel, unending teasing and marginalisation in your youth. When I was young, the absolute worst thing one could be was fat, and I was the fattest all through school: from elementary school, to college. Of course, by college level I had the tools to not only look at myself and my situation differently, but to also be able to give it back when necessary. And in spades.

Back when I was younger, I suppose I tried to commit a different kind of suicide: I lived a fast life, racing cars, drinking insane amounts of alcohol that would have killed any guy, and doing a number of drugs. Often, at the same time. It wasn't so much that I wanted to die as that I didn't want to feel the way society tried to make me feel at every turn because of my weight. I felt certain I was ugly and unloveable, and I am not even close to being unique in my experiences.

Depending upon one's childhood, and whether one is accepted by one's family or not -- which can be the true equalizer, and the one factor that can save a child from self-harm and give them a port in the storm of judgement from the rest of the world through instilling self-esteem -- years of abuse, cruelty and the knowledge that one is considered ugly and worthless by most of society will often have several fairly predictable results when it comes to further teasing. The child will turn inward and not fight back; the child will lash out and possibly become a bully; the child will work extra hard to 'show' those who disdain them that they are worthwhile; the child may, in a healthy way, not allow the abuse and refuse to stand for it while protecting her/himself; the child may end his/her life or take some sort of extreme action, either for attention, or because s/he has reached the end of her/his rope. Of course, this is a short list, but from what I have gleaned, they seem to be the most common courses of action.

Something I have noticed about you, VG: You're not stupid by a longshot, but you seem to lack a certain amount of empathy for, and also understanding of, the likely life experiences of the very women that you claim to admire. This will not serve you well here, I must say. If you really care, try more reading about such issues, and less posting, and you may learn some things that will enhance your understanding of the next fat woman you date -- both for your sake and hers.


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## NFA (Oct 20, 2006)

Imploring people to "lead by example" is a hallow way to justify doing NOTHING about a problem. This isn't about simple teasing. I think a lot of people here have no idea what is really being discussed here. Increasingly, child are being subjected to extreme cruelty and torture from their tormentors. The emotional abuse is unrelenting and to a degree few of us have ever had to experience. When it rises to physical abuse, it can be constant and often vicious. The situation has gotten out of control because too many people look at it and assume its just idle horseplay. It has gotten out control because some children have been encouraged by teachers and parents alike to feel a sense of entitlement over their peers. They have been coddled by a "hands-off" coddling which does nothing to discourage inappropriate behavior. They have been spurred on by a political culture which endorses bullying when the victims are politically acceptable, like gays or religious and ethnic minorities. This isn't happening everywhere, but it IS happening. When the victims are effectively isolated from their peers who are too scared to stand up, things can get exponentially worse in a hurry. This is unacceptable. Childhood is the time to LEARN to treat your fellow humans with respect and dignity. Its the time to learn that you don't have to like everyone, but that there is an appropriate response when you don't like someone. It is a time to learn humility. These lessons are NOT incompatable with a strong character. They do not need to be ignored so as to teach children how to respond to adversity and disrespectful treatment. They are not lessons which must be taught with medication. The problem we have is that too many people have this knee-jerk opposition to teaching these lessons. They think its an overreaction without understanding the situation. They dismiss the actions which are the problem, and instead focus on blaming the victim. Imagine a world where the victim of a robbery was told to learn how to deal with the loss rather than focusing on punishing and rehabilitating the robber. Bullies create the problem. Bullies can stop the problem. Efforts towards intervention for the victims will be futile unless were start intervening with the bullies who instigate the abuse. Parents and teachers need to realize that the abuse is almost always far worse than they know. They need to learn to recognize the difference between teasing and torment. They need to learn that this is the bullies problem, not the victims.

None of this can happen if we remain too unconcerned to see the real problem here. I've seen this kind of vicious bullying. This isn't what the defenders of bullying think it is, but that's the problem. Too many fail to recognize or care about the problem. Too many fall into the mob mentality that justifies and endorses the abuse. Bullies are the ones who need to be taught a lesson here, not those they torment. Unless we can recognize that, nothing can be done about this growing problem.


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## Tina (Oct 20, 2006)

You really think we do not understand what is being discussed?? You've _got_ to be kidding.


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## Wagimawr (Oct 20, 2006)

It's either that, or he namechecks VideoGamer


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 20, 2006)

elle camino said:


> yes, exactly. thank you.
> and furthermore, i call bullshit on anyone who says that kids are somehow incapable of that kind of fortitude. i was, and i know plenty of other kids who had it a lot worse than me, and lived through it.
> i'm in no way saying that this story is not heartbreaking, or that i don't feel for the kid or the family. i AM saying that what i _personally _find the _most_ heartbreaking about the whole thing, is that apparantly this kid was never taught that everyone has to take their knocks, and that your self-image doesn't amount to the comments on your myspace page.


I'm calling bullshit on this. She never said how old the child was..and you can't tell me you expect a 13 year old to be able to put up with this type of thing successfully.

Adolesecense is a tough stage for children. Anyone that's had psychology knows that and anyone that's a teacher and had to take child development 5 different times knows this. They are still very egocentric and it's as they get closer to their 20's that it begins to fade away and they become more atuned to the people around them.

Why do you think peer pressure is so rampant in teens? Because they are looking to others to help them create their identities. 

Granted, I agree that it's sad that she didn't realize she was worth more than the comments on her myspace. BUT we have adults here in this very community that rely on what other people think about them to form their self images. Is it sad? Of course. But it's also reality. You can't expect every child to be able to handle something like this.


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## NFA (Oct 20, 2006)

Tina said:


> You really think we do not understand what is being discussed?? You've _got_ to be kidding.



That's not what I said, Tina. I think a lot of people in this discussion don't understand the difference between the idle teasing they imagine and the persistant torment that some children have to endure. I didn't say EVERYONE, Tina. I didn't even say MOST, Tina. Given the stakes, I'd say even 3 people failing to understand that difference is a lot, Tina.


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 20, 2006)

NFA said:


> That's not what I said, Tina. I think a lot of people in this discussion don't understand the difference between the idle teasing they imagine and the persistant torment that some children have to endure. I didn't say EVERYONE, Tina. I didn't even say MOST, Tina. Given the stakes, I'd say even 3 people failing to understand that difference is a lot, Tina.


I agree and I find the callous, suck it up mentality to be rather disturbing.


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## CuteyChubb (Oct 20, 2006)

Not everybody is built with the ability to deal with that kind of torment. It's not even something you can teach a kid to be (tough). Some people are just more sensitive than others. Some of us are lucky to have made it this far without blowing our brains out. Hooray for us. I have to wonder about the ones who didn't. How many couldn't make it? 

I think the point the OP is making is extremely valid. We as parents/adults MUST stop this madness. Our children are depending on us for it.


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## Tina (Oct 20, 2006)

NFA said:


> That's not what I said, Tina. I think a lot of people in this discussion don't understand the difference between the idle teasing they imagine and the persistant torment that some children have to endure. I didn't say EVERYONE, Tina. I didn't even say MOST, Tina. Given the stakes, I'd say even 3 people failing to understand that difference is a lot, Tina.



You said:

_I think a lot of people here have no idea what is really being discussed here._

Thank you for qualifying and explaining, because to me, "a lot" means a lot, and not a few, as in three or so. Given that most of us in this discussion -- a discussion with three pages worth of posts -- are fat, and many of us likely have been fat for more than just a little while, I think that most of us get it. And I agree that those who haven't gone through it don't understand. Was the basis of my post to VG, if you recall.


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## gangstadawg (Oct 20, 2006)

KuroBara said:


> And Enough of telling children "Well, children can be mean. Just ignore them." How many times did I hear this crap through my life? You know what? You cn never ignore, especially when it happens every day fo your life for years. Especially when you change schools and find the same mistreatment. There is no support system in the schools. Literally, this was how it was when I tried to stand up for myself, and I'm willing to be it wasn't just me: Kids tease--->tell parent--->ignore them or tell your teacher---->teacher: ignore them--> tell parents---> tell your principal----> tell principal--->tell your teacher
> 
> When are people going to realize schools should not be an obligatory torture chamber because "Kids are cruel?"


this why when i got teased i got angry and took action. basically i had to physically kick some ass. it felt good to beat the stew out of some one talking shit.


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## elle camino (Oct 20, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> I'm calling bullshit on this. She never said how old the child was..and you can't tell me you expect a 13 year old to be able to put up with this type of thing successfully.


that is absolutely what i'm telling you. were you a fat kid? were you a fat _13_ year old kid? i sure was, and i don't remember reading anything in this kid's story that differentiated much from what i went through, or what every other heavy kid i've known has gone through. 
sure it sucked at the time, but it's all part of growing up and forging your own identity. 



MisticalMisty said:


> Adolesecense is a tough stage for children. Anyone that's had psychology knows that and anyone that's a teacher and had to take child development 5 different times knows this. They are still very egocentric and it's as they get closer to their 20's that it begins to fade away and they become more atuned to the people around them.
> 
> Why do you think peer pressure is so rampant in teens? Because they are looking to others to help them create their identities.
> 
> Granted, I agree that it's sad that she didn't realize she was worth more than the comments on her myspace. BUT we have adults here in this very community that rely on what other people think about them to form their self images. Is it sad? Of course. But it's also reality. You can't expect every child to be able to handle something like this.


of course adolescense is tough. my point is that it's tough for _every_ kid, and what's really tragic about this is that _this_ kid (for whatever reason) never developed the sense of self it takes to stand up to the crap life will eventually throw at you. 
and really, i do think that it's reasonable to expect a kid to stand up to teasing without offing themselves. they certainly don't have to do it without help, or without a good amount of soul-searching, but it's just an inevitable part of growing up. you take your knocks, you find your spine, and you learn to say 'you know what? fuck you if you don't like who i am. i'm just fine with it'. 
so yes, it's a very sad situation, but i'm not going to jump on the 'omg fat kids have it SO much worse, people who tease them are murderers!' train, because that's just ridiculous.


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## Tina (Oct 20, 2006)

Thing is, not every kid _does_ have direction from family, and does _not_ develop a sense of self. Sometimes that doesn't happen until later. Should we wrap everyone in cotton so that no one will ever get hurt? Impossible, and even if we could it wouldn't be advisable. However, I will tell you that in my own experience, I was given more hell than anyone else I've ever seen at school -- all the way through. The times I fought back felt wonderful, but I didn't always have the strength for it.

These days, some school teachers and adminstrators are being sued for not doing enough to stop the teasing -- for turning a blind eye, which happens, and is inexcusable. Heck, in my son's case, an _English teacher_ in high school used my son as an example for class sentence structure on the board: "Jimmy eats a lot at lunch."

If I would have thought to sue then I would have, because getting through the layers of administrators was almost impossible, and I had to fight tooth and nail to get anything done.

You are right that kids need to learn to be tough and stand up for themselves, but everyone's experiences are different. Sometimes kids don't get support at home to help balance out the crap everywhere else. Sometimes adults turn a blind eye to the teasing, either because they are bigots themselves, or they are overwhelmed. Sometimes the fat kid _does_ get teased worse -- and often much worse -- than others. 

What happened to me all the way through school almost broke me. In the end it made me stronger, but at what cost? I cannot look at it the way you are, elle, because I know what a pure, living hell it was, and I don't think it should take that much pain and suffering to create a person who can stand up to the world. 

I remember reading about the fat teen boy who hung himself because of relentless teasing and humiliation at school. This was what, about 2 years ago? I know that others here likely remember that. Sometimes there is nowhere to turn, hopelessness sets in, and in that crucial moment, there seems to be only one way out. It is not, but at the time, they probably cannot see any other answer or way out of the pain.


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## KuroBara (Oct 20, 2006)

gangstadawg said:


> this why when i got teased i got angry and took action. basically i had to physically kick some ass. it felt good to beat the stew out of some one talking shit.


I really wish I had done that when I was younger, but I wasn't raised that way. At the very least, the visits to the principal's office would have gotten my mother's attention and I would not have been writing suicide notes, although no attempts, at age 9.


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## elle camino (Oct 20, 2006)

i see what you're saying, tina. and i think it just boils down to the fact that everyone's opinion of this is going to be a direct reflection of their own experiences with this sort of thing, when they were young. 
in seventh grade, i had a math teacher announce loudly in front of a full classroom (when i approached him - quietly and in private, at his desk - about people in class teasing me about my weight): 'well abby, maybe people wouldn't tease you so often if you ran around the block a few times and lost some of that fat.' it was humiliating and shitty, especially coming from an authority figure whom i was supposed to be able to trust. but i stood up and dealt with it, and i learned several valuable lessons about the ways of people and the world. 
like i've said, i personally think the tragedy of this story lies in that for whatever reason, this kid was unable to put his/her experiences in perspective.


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## sean7 (Oct 20, 2006)

elle camino said:


> i see what you're saying, tina. and i think it just boils down to the fact that everyone's opinion of this is going to be a direct reflection of their own experiences with this sort of thing, when they were young.
> in seventh grade, i had a math teacher announce loudly in front of a full classroom (when i approached him - quietly and in private, at his desk - about people in class teasing me about my weight): 'well abby, maybe people wouldn't tease you so often if you ran around the block a few times and lost some of that fat.' it was humiliating and shitty, especially coming from an authority figure whom i was supposed to be able to trust. but i stood up and dealt with it, and i learned several valuable lessons about the ways of people and the world.
> like i've said, i personally think the tragedy of this story lies in that for whatever reason, this kid was unable to put his/her experiences in perspective.



agreed. What I'm wondering is who taught her that suicide is an option for dealing with problems?


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## CuteyChubb (Oct 20, 2006)

Elle Camino,

It seems to me like you feel that if you were able to deal with being a fat 13 yr. old then so should this child.

What you are not considering is the other factors involved. Had this been the only problem this child encountered then maybe I could see your point. The OP eluded to other factors but this was the straw that broke the camels back.

What if this kid had been molested? Raped? Raised by alcoholics? Drug addicts? What if the parents were the tormentors calling the kid fat and putting the kid down? 

I could go on but won't. We aren't cookie cutter fatties. Our journeys are all different.


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## CuteyChubb (Oct 20, 2006)

sean7 said:


> agreed. What I'm wondering is who taught her that suicide is an option for dealing with problems?



Nobody has to teach a kid that. Some kid shot themself yesterday in front of their schoolmates. 

It's called desperation and hopelessness and it is a shitty place to be.


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## gangstadawg (Oct 20, 2006)

KuroBara said:


> I really wish I had done that when I was younger, but I wasn't raised that way. At the very least, the visits to the principal's office would have gotten my mother's attention and I would not have been writing suicide notes, although no attempts, at age 9.


the thing was that i was never teased about my weight but because of my height. i not really all that heavy. im 5ft 2in and weight 170-185. and the majority of people i know weigh more than me so not many people can make fun of my weight.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 20, 2006)

Les Toil said:


> Hiya Vicks. I guess it all depends on the school. My teenage niece always reminds me her school's administration is just not the least bit hands-on enough to take action against bullies (in other words, they're either scared or they don't care). Where as when I was a kid, a parent's phone call to the principal would guarantee immediate action (although it would also guarantee the victim kid getting his ass whipped by the chastised bully later after school). And of course back in my mom's day, any form of bullying would be dealt with with a VERY swift hand from the teacher her/himself .
> 
> BTW, you look gorgeous in your latest avatar, Bunny woman.



Most of my kids' schools over the years have had zero tolerance for bullying -- both physical and verbal. So that's why I was wondering. It seems that the problem is the parents, who are either too busy or too overwhelmed or don't care to take action. And yeah, the schools have lost any ability to exercise authority by parents who don't want their kids' precious psyches damaged.  

Oh and thanks. :wubu: You're a sweetie, BriBri.


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 20, 2006)

elle camino said:


> that is absolutely what i'm telling you. were you a fat kid? were you a fat _13_ year old kid? i sure was, and i don't remember reading anything in this kid's story that differentiated much from what i went through, or what every other heavy kid i've known has gone through.
> sure it sucked at the time, but it's all part of growing up and forging your own identity.
> 
> 
> ...




Hell yes I was a fat kid. I was the fattest person in the damn town. So I do know what it's like. But I also know that times are different now than they were 15 years ago when I was a teen. Parent's are MIA. More and more teachers are becoming increasingly untrustworthy and a lot of these teens have no one to go to with their problems. I'm sorry, I don't think a 13 year old needs to have to visit the school of hard knocks.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 20, 2006)

lets visit a few comments here that i have an issue with....

first of all, if you have talked to anyone that has ever thought about or attempted suicide, you would know, often times it is the last little thing that finally pushes you over the edge..the last comment that makes you feel worthless, the last email about what a fattie you are, the last comment from someone you trusted who told you "if only you lost a few pounds (or 100) you would be pretty, worthwhile, lovable" ...do you see how thinking that you know the whole story makes this ok?? i gave so few facts for a reason, to protect the family, they have enough to deal with, because the guilt after a suicide can be relentless...it doesn't matter if the person was male or female or 10 or 30...it is something that needs to be taken to task...what makes anyone better than the person to feel the need to deliberately hurt someone with their words....

do you think the people who called me a "that" didn't know i would hear them, do you not find it deplorable that they thought they had the right to denegratge me into a thing, not even a person??

what we are all discussing here is something called emotional intelligence...it is the ability to learn how to handle the things in our life that are not just brain power, but need an emotional level and a maturity to handle...did you notice the word maturity...how is someone supposed to fend off the constant comments, so that no aspect of their life is safe from feeling fat, from feeling worthless....

when i was a youth, i am 47 now, i didn't have to have the media ON ALL CHANNELS showing me images of beautiful but hardly obtainable bodies..i ddidn't have a computer showing me just how much society thougth i was fat, i had my friends and my family to tell me that on a regular basis, or the kids at school...but i was not showered with comments in every aspect of my life...the kids today have it easier in some ways, but emotionally, no way...not when one of the best selling video games allows you to beat and kill people senselessly without one sense of remorse, so when you face a real person, does it desensitize you....you bet. but that is a whole other basket of worms isn't it???

i repeat what i have said over and over again, NO ONE has the right or the privilege to make anyone feel less than they are. NO ONE. it doesn't matter if one is strong enough or not to take it, that isn't the question i have, and although it does matter you cant assume the person didn't have the strength but dealt with just one too many thing that day that shoved this person over the edge...what is in question, is why so many people think it is ok and their right to tell you that you don't fit their bill.

empathy shouldn't be just a word in a book, some people need to look it up, read it, and try to adopt it. It will make the world a much better place.


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## SexxyBBW69 (Oct 20, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Man, I really didn't expect to get shunned when I wrote something as innocuous as I did.
> 
> It's totally assumed that parents should try to teach their kids respect for the feelings of others. In fact, it's so much common sense that I didn't think that anybody would bother debating the point. But normally when grown-ups start pompously talking about "feelings" and "bullies" that means there are more bureaucrats typing up new laws that'll send Little Timmy to prison for saying some girl has cooties.



I was going to comment about some other "feelings" that I have ........ but I won't bother its just not worth it.

Take care thanks for sharing..... Have an awesome day!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## steely (Oct 20, 2006)

I had just as much trouble in the 70's media with weight as kids do now.Farrah Fawcett,perfect hair,teeth and that tiny skinny body.It never gets any better.Any issues I had with kids making fun of me was eclicpsed by the fact that teachers,principals and most adults were mortified I was fat.They didn't want to look at me much less take up for me.

I have severe issues with authority and trust because of the way I was treated as a child.Am I bitter?Oh yeah!I couldn't handle it then and I haven't learned how to in the past 20 years.


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## Tina (Oct 20, 2006)

I agree with you, elle, that parents need to give their kids the tools to deal with this stuff. Thing is that many don't. Another problem is, often parents don't always know what is going on with their kids in that situation, because it can be a shameful thing for some kids, and they won't tell -- they just turn inwards.

You know, I have to say that in the 70's it was a different animal. Dunno what your experience was, but I think that in some ways it was worse then because super sizes were more unusual then. I _never_ saw anyone else my size all through school. There was also the factor that as a 270 lb high school student, I had a very difficult time finding clothing, and when I did it was hideous bullet-proof polyester, and often in horrid prints and nothing cute like the other kids were wearing.

Today, that isn't as much of a problem. Clothing is much easier to find, and there are many more fat kids in school now. And yet, kids are more violent now, and the attitudes are sometimes angry as well as disdainful. Kids get teased for all kinds of reasons, and I know that many people have gotten their butts kicked over race, but in the Black Power, Black Panther, Black is Beautiful 70's, I really didn't see much of that when it came to Blacks, but Latinos did bear some of the brunt.

I think that parents need to teach their children that they are valuable and worthwhile human beings. Then they need to teach them that the other kids are, too, and not to call names. This is done more through example than through lecturing, because telling your child not to make fun of the fat kid in class and then making nasty remarks not quite under your breath in the car about the fat woman walking in front of you sends a much louder message than anything you could lecture them about. Beyond that, schools need to take more responsibility than they do. 

I agree with you, Di, that no one has that right. And yet, kids will always be kids, and there will always be teasing no matter what. We cannot and should not protect them from everything, but we can make adults in authority do their jobs, and we can try to give our kids the tools to help themselves in such situations, and the confidence that they do not have to take it.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 20, 2006)

Tina, i agree with you, kids will always be kids, but you raised your family to be respectful and to consider others feelings even when Jimmy's feelings were not considered.

I think part of our job is to raise the next generation to be aware of the feelings of others, and i like how Vic said they had problem solving for hurt feelings.

ahh, if only an answer to this was as easy as talking about it.

thank you to everyone who has responded, even if i dont agree with you.


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## Friday (Oct 21, 2006)

> VideoGamer: Man, I really didn't expect to get shunned when I wrote something as innocuous as I did.



in·noc·u·ous

1 : producing no injury : HARMLESS
2 : *not likely to give offense* or to arouse strong feelings or hostility : INOFFENSIVE, INSIPID

Obviously, many of us do not find bullying to be just something kids do. I certainly wasn't raised that way and if you think that I am or ever was timid or docile you're in for quite a shock.

A child that gets his/her jollies from tormenting another child with verbal assaults is no different than one that enjoys pulling wings off butterflies or torturing puppies. Enjoying the pain of others is never excusable.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 21, 2006)

Friday said:


> I certainly wasn't raised that way and if you think that I am or ever was timid or docile you're in for quite a shock.



Why, you've always struck me as a total doormat. 



> A child that gets his/her jollies from tormenting another child with verbal assaults is no different than one that enjoys pulling wings off butterflies or torturing puppies. Enjoying the pain of others is never excusable.



Yes, and how is this any different than saying, "Society hates fat folks. We'll never change it, 'people will be people'. Oh well." Aren't we here because we want better from our society? If we truly thought that such behavior was the norm, why even try to promote size acceptance?


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## Tina (Oct 21, 2006)

SocialbFly said:


> ahh, if only an answer to this was as easy as talking about it.



How true, Di. If only.


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## missaf (Oct 21, 2006)

It's easy in the fact that it can start with every child, today, right now. It's difficult because it relies upon parents to start the changes, one at a time, with each child in the world.


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## SocialbFly (Oct 21, 2006)

sean7 said:


> agreed. What I'm wondering is who taught her that suicide is an option for dealing with problems?




no one has to be taught this, they see it in the media, they hear it from other kids, they see it everywhere...assuming they have to be taught this is one of the problems of dealing with teen suicide. 


Everyday, they are show how to kill someone, how to kill themselves...

the bigger problem is feeling like there is no other alternative to ending the pain. you would not believe how many suicide attempts we see in our unit.

no one looks to be taught this unless they reach the end of their rope.

and we are not the people to judge where each persons end of the rope exists at.


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## DebbieBBW (Oct 21, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> Not to be a prick, but is there anybody here who seriously thinks that kids are ever going to stop picking on each other.
> 
> Moreover....do we really WANT kids to be totally tame and docile?



Being respectful of others does not make one either tame or docile...

I agree that it will never stop totally because there will always continue to be parents who do not do their jobs well enough and teach kids that it is not ok to bully, or even know it is going on for that matter. Most parents are SO out of touch and clueless with what really goes on in their kids lives that it is just a crying shame.

I remember when I was school how impressed I was to every once in a blue moon to see someone who was popular, super nice and respectful to everyone all at the same time. I was lucky enough to not be bullied in any way, but then again I was not fat back then. I also had enough sense not to bully others.

I have many times talked to my kids about bullying. They are both very good looking, smart, popular and well adjusted kids. I remind them often that is is NEVER, EVER ok to bully or make fun of others that may not be as accepted as they are lucky enough to be. I stress to them how important it is to be leaders instead of followers and to be a good example for anyone around them. It would break my heart to ever find out my kids were hurting others just for kicks, but I do feel pretty confident that will never happen. 

and yes that is a very, very sad and unfortunate story.


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## Miss Vickie (Oct 21, 2006)

missaf said:


> It's easy in the fact that it can start with every child, today, right now. It's difficult because it relies upon parents to start the changes, one at a time, with each child in the world.




Yes yes yes yes yes. Oh my gosh, yes. I think if parents realized how much input they have -- when their kids are YOUNG, give it up once they're teens  -- they would be astounded. We are their role models, and it's not just what we say but more importantly what we DO. They soak that stuff up like little sponges, watching how we interact with them, with their friends, with the world. That's how they learn to treat others. It's not perfect, but it has to at least help create decent human beings, doesn't it?


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## HereticFA (Oct 23, 2006)

While I agree with many of the posts about parents needing to instill a sense of respect for others, I think few here realize (or admit) how many parents seem to teach disrespect to their kids. It's a spin off of the sense of arrogance many successful parents seem to try and teach their kids. A very primal approach to acting as the alpha animal in a social setting. They reinforce their station in life by putting down everyone they feel is inferior to themselves in any way possible.

In a way, the "zero tolerance" that's been enacted in schools since the 90's seems to have made it worse than it was in the 70's. Instead of letting it out during the day, these sociopaths bottle it up and let it out after it's become concentrated. Look at the incidents of cyberstalking that make it into the media these days. I'm sure it's not even the tip of the iceberg. Just Google up the name of this website and look at the websites where "anal orifices" proudly post the results of trolling they've done in the fat chat areas.

I'd rather see ways to teach the kids (those who see themselves as fat) life skills (and maybe self defense skills) in defending their self esteem. Any policies or procedures strong enough to prevent or prosecute fat bashers will only fuel their ego and their actions. 

As one who suffered from physical attacks from growing up as a fat kid, the only thing that stopped it was when I started physically fighting back. It taught me the hardest lesson that I've learned in life: It only takes one to start a war and it takes everyone to keep the peace. Going along to get along will probably make you a victim. You're living according to someone else's agenda.


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## Jane (Oct 24, 2006)

Step one....parents not teasing their kids in a harmful manner (often where kids learn to tease)
Step two....teachers more mature than the kids they are teaching.


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 24, 2006)

Jane said:


> Step one....parents not teasing their kids in a harmful manner (often where kids learn to tease)
> Step two....teachers more mature than the kids they are teaching.


I think teaching needs an age requirement..I know we are struggling to find new teachers..but damn..there are a LOT of immature 22 year olds teacher children..not a good thing most of the time. GRANTED..there are some very mature 22 year olds..I was one..but I just think an age limit should be in place..


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## Jane (Oct 24, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> I think teaching needs an age requirement..I know we are struggling to find new teachers..but damn..there are a LOT of immature 22 year olds teacher children..not a good thing most of the time. GRANTED..there are some very mature 22 year olds..I was one..but I just think an age limit should be in place..


I've seen 50 year old teachers who have degenerated to the maturity level of the kids they teach (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they ever matured). It's something teachers have to fight, since they are around the kids at least as much as they are around anyone else.


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## MisticalMisty (Oct 24, 2006)

Jane said:


> I've seen 50 year old teachers who have degenerated to the maturity level of the kids they teach (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they ever matured). It's something teachers have to fight, since they are around the kids at least as much as they are around anyone else.


amen..lol at the end of the day I'm lucky if I can form a thought..lol..


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 25, 2006)

VideoGamer said:


> You're pretty much calling all children bigots since pretty much every single kid in the world teases other kids.
> 
> It's easy for us to all hop onto our moral high-horses and start moralizing and condemning everybody. We don't know the context, we don't know the facts, we just start moralizing and it makes us look like superior beings.
> 
> ...




This pompous adult teaches her three children NOT to call other people names - they dont call people "fat" in a mean way, they dont use slur words (or hear them at home), they are taught to respect other people and life styles- even if it's not one they like- 
I wonder if it would be better for me to have such a blase attitude instead and say "kids will be kids" "boys will be boys" , etc.
That kind of talk and attitude sickens me- especially since you not only have a cavalier attitude about the cruel intentions of people on others but you also strive to defend those kind of people- makes me think you are defending some of your own past actions perhaps....

Gee, cant take being called a few names? You dont like it when something bad is inferred about something close to you? Why do you care now?


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