# LOST: Season Five **warning - SPOILERS!!**



## Ash (Jan 27, 2009)

This thread just needed to happen. 

For all who don't know and don't watch, Lost is the BEST. SHOW. EVER. 
No detractors on this, please. It's science. 

Anyway, the show is crazy and there are always about a zillion things going on at once and there are intricate plot lines and subtle details that must be discussed. I've recently been watching the show with a couple of fellow Lost fanatics, and it's really cool to be able to fill in the blanks when one of us sees a connection or remembers something that is relevant to whatever is going on in an episode. 

So this thread should be that. Have a theory about what this whole island thing is about? See a connection that you want to share with the class? Can't remember what happened at the end of the last season finale? Talk about it here!

(Also, expect to see a lot of Blackjack in this thread...  )


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## BothGunsBlazing (Jan 27, 2009)

LOOOOOOOOOOST !! Hey, wait, Remember how we watched the first season in like 24hrs like it was crack or something? Annnd than I let you borrow it to finish and then you totally forgot to mail me the last disc with the last few episodes on it and I am pretty sure I almost died waiting for it. See, now that is a testament to how good the show is.

POLAR BEARS. WTF.

I did love the first few seasons of this show, but totally stopped watching it after the looong break in the 3rd season and just never got into it again, but I know I should, so I'll probably Netflix the rest of the 3rd and get the 4th too.

Soo, I'll probably chime in like 3 weeks from now with an opinion.


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## out.of.habit (Jan 27, 2009)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Soo, I'll probably chime in like 3 weeks from now with an opinion.



Three weeks, are you kidding me?

DO EEEET NOW! And watch yourself for spoilers! Seriously, because the polar bears almost make sense compared to what you've missed!


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## BothGunsBlazing (Jan 27, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Three weeks, are you kidding me?
> 
> DO EEEET NOW! And watch yourself for spoilers! Seriously, because the polar bears almost make sense compared to what you've missed!



Okay okay OKAY I know they've been doing flash FORWARDS, but that is about it, I just gotta wait for it to come in the mail because I refuse to go to Blockbuster, so, hopefully it won't take that long, but they're kinda slow for me for some reason! 

Not to hijack this thread, but Beettsy, have you been watching the new season of 24? It's friggin' good! Much better than season 6 so far! 

Okay, so, I'll get lost from this thread until I catch up. GET LOST. Get it? It's like double.


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## Still a Skye fan (Jan 27, 2009)

I happen to own a Dharma Initiative coffee mug! Since I loathe coffee, I use it for tea.

I guess I'm more of a later LOST fan. It took me a while to get into it but I seriously love it now and I've loved all the seasons. The season five premiere last week was amazing!

It feels good to have something I actually WANT to watch back on TV again.


Dennis


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## Ash (Jan 27, 2009)

BothGunsBlazing said:


> Not to hijack this thread, but Beettsy, have you been watching the new season of 24? It's friggin' good! Much better than season 6 so far!



Ew. You got 24 in my Lost thread.


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## Blackjack (Jan 27, 2009)

Reminder: All episodes are available for viewing on the official ABC site. Download the player, and you're good to go. It's pure awesomeness.

And the polar bears were sort of explained, they do make some degree of sense.

I actually just started over at the beginning, finished the first disc of season one last night, just to revisit it all.

Can't wait for tomorrow night. SQUEE.

ETA: And yes, I probably will be in this thread a lot, because I have so damn many thoughts on the show and theories and stuff it's absurd.


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## out.of.habit (Jan 27, 2009)

Still a Skye fan said:


> I happen to own a Dharma Initiative coffee mug! Since I loathe coffee, I use it for tea.
> 
> I guess I'm more of a later LOST fan. It took me a while to get into it but I seriously love it now and I've loved all the seasons. The season five premiere last week was amazing!
> 
> ...



Oooooooh! WANT! Where'd you find it? I'm with you on having some excitement about something on TV again. There's only so many reruns of Scrubs I can watch in a given season.

*Premiere Spoiler:*













So how about Hurley getting arrested? Do you think it was the right call for him, there, listening to Sayid about Ben? I half expected the cops to be working for Ben or Widmore.


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## ladle (Jan 27, 2009)

Damn spoilers..good thing I skipped to the bottom.
I am addicted to LOST like a class A drug.
Can't wait for the 5th Season...might make it all the way down to NZ by 2054!
Woohoo!


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## Wild Zero (Jan 27, 2009)




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## Ash (Jan 27, 2009)

OK, I vote we have *PROBABLE SPOILERS* added to the subject of this thread (didn't think about viewers who aren't caught up yet when I started it). That way we can discuss things and people will know what they're getting into.


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## out.of.habit (Jan 27, 2009)

Ashley said:


> OK, I vote we have *PROBABLE SPOILERS* added to the subject of this thread (didn't think about viewers who aren't caught up yet when I started it). That way we can discuss things and people will know what they're getting into.



Agreed. 

Hey, I added ample space to stop scrolling! 
...and you did write Season Five. 

But yes, that's a good idea. Otherwise, the thread would look like this:

*Ashley*: I like LOST. How about you?

*BGB*: I like 24. Polar bears are crazy.

*o.o.h*: WORD. WWHD! 

*Still a Skye fan*: I'm down with LOST. Ooh wants my mug.

*Beej*: *edited for spoilers and general brilliance of theories*

*Wild Zero*:


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## Maxx Awesome (Jan 27, 2009)

Here's what I want to know... What the frizzle-frack was up with that giant foot with four toes towards the end of Season 3?
Howzabout someone explains that?
& Christian... What's happening there?


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## WeirdMetamorphosis (Jan 27, 2009)

Big HUGE Lost fan here. I watch it religiously. I own the all seasons on DVD and I own seasons 3 and 4 on Bluray. Loving how the new season has started out. I'm really loving the Daniel Faraday character.


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## HDANGEL15 (Jan 27, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Reminder: All episodes are available for viewing on the official ABC site. Download the player, and you're good to go. It's pure awesomeness.
> 
> And the polar bears were sort of explained, they do make some degree of sense.
> 
> ...



*I have been in it from the start..I love the idea of starting all over again....I love that there is a LOST historian on staff that tries to track all the characters and timelines cause they themselves can't keep it kosher between past . future. real. maybe. to trust ben / or not to trust ben...*


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## Blackjack (Jan 27, 2009)

HDANGEL15 said:


> *I have been in it from the start..I love the idea of starting all over again....I love that there is a LOST historian on staff that tries to track all the characters and timelines cause they themselves can't keep it kosher between past . future. real. maybe. to trust ben / or not to trust ben...*



Scarcely a historian if it's me you're talking about... just a fan who's very much into lore. Not just of LOST but of pretty much everything I'm into.

I'm honestly hoping that there'll be some sort of map released- better than the one shown in Season Two- so that maybe I can start plotting out where stuff is.

Really, though, there is a lot to keep track of in the show beyond the basics, and although I'm pretty sure that very little of it will prove relevant, I still like to check it out. For example, I was eager to read _Turn of the Screw_ after seeing it in the show... still not quite sure if it's at all related, but it was a damn good read nonetheless.


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## marlowegarp (Jan 27, 2009)

I just realized the other day that Desmond Hume is named after David Hume, a Scottish Empirical philosopher that followed John Locke in real life. 

Aside from my constant, fervent wish that the polar bears will maul Kate and Sawyer, I'm digging Season 5 as well. Mostly, I want to see the Ben-Whidmore war heat up. Also, my friend and I were really glad that they are keeping the pace going by putting the deadline on the return to the island.


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## Ash (Jan 27, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> Also, my friend and I were really glad that they are keeping the pace going by putting the deadline on the return to the island.



Thanks for the info on Hume. Very interesting!

How long do you think they'll drag the return out, though? I'm betting that the Oceanic Six won't make it back to the island until the end of the season. 

Also, I still think that Widmore is in the pockets of the police that arrested Hurley. The dude is everywhere. 

I am also interested in whether Jin AND the baby will have to come back to the island in order for things to be righted. She was pregnant when she left, but, had she stayed, she would have died (if history is any indicator).


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## out.of.habit (Jan 28, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I am also interested in whether Jin AND the baby will have to come back to the island in order for things to be righted. She was pregnant when she left, but, had she stayed, she would have died (if history is any indicator).



I hope Jin has to go back, somehow. I miss him.


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not entirely certain about the fates of Jin and Michael. LOST has never been one to shy away from the deaths of main characters at a season's end, but I get the feeling that they've still got a role to play in all of it.

I think that Ashley was referring to Sun, though, and her baby, not Jin. As for their baby, I would think that it would have to return, since Sun _was _carrying while on the island.


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## Maxx Awesome (Jan 28, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Yeah, I'm not entirely certain about the fates of Jin and Michael. LOST has never been one to shy away from the deaths of main characters at a season's end, but I get the feeling that they've still got a role to play in all of it.



Then there's the problem of Walt too. They really seemed keen on pushing his character in Season One, but his powers, whatever they were, were never fully explained before they wrote him out. Now, of course, he's too old to play a 10-11 year old boy which is what he was when he left (& time on the island has not moved on that far). However, they could tie that to the whole "time-travelling island" thing, I suppose.

Jin was a big favourite of mine so I'd be dismayed if they actually killed him off. His flashbacks consistently proved to be some of the most interesting in the show.

Is Sun's father supposed to have some connection to Charles Widmore?


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## Ash (Jan 28, 2009)

Maxx Awesome said:


> Then there's the problem of Walt too. They really seemed keen on pushing his character in Season One, but his powers, whatever they were, were never fully explained before they wrote him out. Now, of course, he's too old to play a 10-11 year old boy which is what he was when he left (& time on the island has not moved on that far). However, they could tie that to the whole "time-travelling island" thing, I suppose.
> 
> Jin was a big favourite of mine so I'd be dismayed if they actually killed him off. His flashbacks consistently proved to be some of the most interesting in the show.
> 
> Is Sun's father supposed to have some connection to Charles Widmore?



I'm thinking that Walt might be one of the ones who HAS to come back to the island, too. I mean, why would the island need everyone else and not him? I don't think that story is over at all.

And I meant Sun! :doh: 

I just don't really think Michael and Jin died in that explosion. Or, if they did, this time travel thing that's going on now is going to bring them back. Now that Faraday knows he can alter the past, I think we can count on things like this to happen. And there will likely be some significant disasters from this as well. 

Last week when Locke was going back to the drug plane crash site, I was hoping he'd do something that would save Boone (remember WAY back in Season 1?). I still think that might happen. We'll see! 

Also, do you guys remember the man and woman who were paralyzed by a spider bite and then buried alive on the island? Any theories on what is happening there?


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## marlowegarp (Jan 28, 2009)

I think the spider-bite couple were an experiment to see how people felt about characters who had yet to be introduced coming into play. I think that early on, they were just going to introduce new characters constantly, but then people quickly gravitated towards a few. Personally, I thought even though the spider-bite episode was the weakest of the series, I would still like to meet new characters. 

I also would love to see a flashback from Vincent's POV, so I doubt anyone in Hollywood is looking to hit my demographic.


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## Maxx Awesome (Jan 28, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I'm thinking that Walt might be one of the ones who HAS to come back to the island, too. I mean, why would the island need everyone else and not him? I don't think that story is over at all.
> 
> And I meant Sun! :doh:
> 
> ...



I'm also of the opinon that Nikki & Paolo (I think those were their names) were an experiment to see how people felt when new characters were suddenly ret-conned into existence. I read somewhere that (some) fans were rather belligerent(sp?) towards them so they killed them off. Don't know if that's the case or if it's actually leading somewhere...

And what's the deal with Jeremy Bentham?





I mean, what is this guy? Is he John Locke? Is he Jeremy Bentham? Is he in a wheelchair? Is he walking? Make up your mind!


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## Webmaster (Jan 28, 2009)

The show's getting dangerously close to being a soap opera (will Susan Lucci show up?), and sometimes all those flashbacks and flashforwards seem just an easy way out of having to explain anything at all. I am also not fond of them killing off so many good people and it's later as if they never even existed. Further, the odd and erratic release schedule of new episodes made it so difficult to follow the series that at some point I decided to just wait for the DVDs.


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2009)

Maxx Awesome said:


> And what's the deal with Jeremy Bentham?
> 
> I mean, what is this guy? Is he John Locke? Is he Jeremy Bentham? Is he in a wheelchair? Is he walking? Make up your mind!



Bentham is Locke under a fake name.

Jeremy Bentham is a philosopher who was influenced by- among others- John Locke and Scottish philosopher David Hume (who Desmond Hume is most likely a reference to).


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2009)

Ashley said:


> I'm thinking that Walt might be one of the ones who HAS to come back to the island, too. I mean, why would the island need everyone else and not him? I don't think that story is over at all.



Absolutely not. There's actually a short webclip- from last season or the season before- available on the official site that shows him in that complex that they'd had Carl in when they were brainwashing him with JACOB LOVES YOU. It's only about 90 seconds long, but it brings him back into play and shows that there is most likely going to be something happening with him.

There's also clips that show stuff about Frogurt and other characters.



> I just don't really think Michael and Jin died in that explosion. Or, if they did, this time travel thing that's going on now is going to bring them back. Now that Faraday knows he can alter the past, I think we can count on things like this to happen. And there will likely be some significant disasters from this as well.
> 
> Last week when Locke was going back to the drug plane crash site, I was hoping he'd do something that would save Boone (remember WAY back in Season 1?). I still think that might happen. We'll see!



Faraday actually established that it was _im_possible to change the past. I was sort of expecting Locke to fuck up time-space myself, but it was explained that no matter what you tried to do, it wouldn't matter and would play out the way it was going to, one way or another.

Think about Desmond's flashes during Season Three- it's a similar explanation. He can try and prevent the person dying, but it's going to happen.



> Also, do you guys remember the man and woman who were paralyzed by a spider bite and then buried alive on the island? Any theories on what is happening there?



I actually have to run over to my friend's now to catch LOST, but I'm going to address this when I get back.


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> I actually have to run over to my friend's now to catch LOST, but I'm going to address this when I get back.



Or perhaps not because they're all going to bed and planning on watching it online later.

I'm watching at home in my heatless family room now, and the storm is messing with the quality of the picture. It's all skippy now and then. Not nearly as fun.


Anyways, about the Nikki/Paolo topic, I think that not only were they testing to see how people would respond to new characters (throughout the whole season, really), but they also were giving a final look _backwards_ at the entirety of the series through the eyes of minor characters before they began going forwards. It wasn't long after that episode that they stated the flash-forwards, which continued pretty consistently from the end of the third season through almost all of the fourth season.

It was in part, I think, a way to revisit old faces (Boone, Arzt, and others) before leaving them behind completely.


ETA: Also, Desmond with his sunglasses in this episode looks like Bono from U2... and I'm loving the Latin.


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## out.of.habit (Jan 28, 2009)

Widmore!?

WTF!



eta: this is awesome.


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## Blackjack (Jan 28, 2009)

Oddly enough, nothing in this episode strikes me as a huge surprise like previous episodes have done. I haven't really had a "HOLY SHIT" moment yet.

...except for the name of Desmond's kid in the future just right now. Oh, and the bit with the claymores in the beginning, but that was more of an action thing than an information thing.


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## Slygore (Jan 28, 2009)

WOW, tonight's episode just ruled!!!


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## HDANGEL15 (Jan 28, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Scarcely a historian if it's me you're talking about... just a fan who's very much into lore. Not just of LOST but of pretty much everything I'm into.
> 
> I'm honestly hoping that there'll be some sort of map released- better than the one shown in Season Two- so that maybe I can start plotting out where stuff is.
> 
> Really, though, there is a lot to keep track of in the show beyond the basics, and although I'm pretty sure that very little of it will prove relevant, I still like to check it out. For example, I was eager to read _Turn of the Screw_ after seeing it in the show... still not quite sure if it's at all related, but it was a damn good read nonetheless.



*BJ...no on one of the shows PRECEdING the opener...where they kinda explain things by the writers, they introduced the LOST HISTORIAN, perhaps they had another name for him...who tracks all characters /past/present/future.and I liked that idea...
TONITE? WTF was mostly my thoughts....

me thinks she needs to have a marathon LOST session and re-run everything from the top...that;s what i should have done in December :doh:*


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## activistfatgirl (Jan 28, 2009)

I never really understand what's going on, but I want it.

Charles Whittmore? WTF?


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## Edens_heel (Jan 29, 2009)

Anyone else feel as if they got skull-fucked by tonight's ep? Who wants to bet that Jughead is responsible for a lot of the weird crap that's been going on since day one? I was so giddy about connecting the dots of Richard meeting John as a kid, moments before they actually discussed it.

Grade-A awesome. Between this and Galactica's final eps, it's a good time to be a Sci-Fi junkie.


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## Blackjack (Jan 29, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Anyone else feel as if they got skull-fucked by tonight's ep? Who wants to bet that Jughead is responsible for a lot of the weird crap that's been going on since day one?



Atomic radiation doesn't make smoke monsters. Nor does it heal paralysis, or make people somehow immortal (like Mikhail), or enable people to jump through time.

It would, however, explain some of the less weird stuff. It might have resulted in the pregnancy issue that the Others were having, which killed the mother and child; it very likely shaped some of the planning of the Dharma Initiative. Although I do think that it could be linked to those and a few other more conventional items, I don't think that it can explain much of what's been happening.


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## Still a Skye fan (Jan 30, 2009)

Episode two...wow! Nuff said!

*I got my Dharma Initiative mug from a Previews catalogue at the comic shop I frequent. I imagine it must be for sale somewhere else.

*Yes, I was digging the Latin and I caught all the references to philosophers back in season one.

*The significance of the giant foot with four toes? It's a very old, time traveling island, obviously some beings who weren't quite homo sapiens once dwelled there.

* I also miss Jin and don't think he died. Jin was cool!

*There's supposed to be two more seasons of this, so I think there's lots of wild stuff to come.


Dennis


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## Still a Skye fan (Jan 31, 2009)

Here's my Dharma Initiative mug relaxing at work.

The sign behind it says "All Returns Here" in prominent black letters on a bright yellow background. This is where people are supposed to return library materials when they come into my library.

However, I've long since lost count of the numbers of people who bring stuff in, stand right in front of the fucking sign...the bright yellow sign, mind you...and ask if this is where they return their books.

The previous sign used to be bright orange and these pinheads didn't see that either! :doh:

Anyway, here's my beloved Dharma Initiative mug. It doesn't time travel...at least not that I'm aware of, but it gives me tea when I want some.







Dennis


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## out.of.habit (Feb 2, 2009)

Dennis! I love your mug! If you do find that it happens to travel through time and space, I could sure use it for coffee yesterday morning. Thanks!

I promise not to ask where the returns go! 


By the waaaay...

Any Colbert Report watchers pay attention to the _Cheating Death with Dr. Stephen T. Colbert, D.F.A._ segment last Tuesday? One of the graphics to support a joke about drug settlement checks was particularly interesting:

View attachment checkcolb.jpg


Thought ya'll might get a kick out of this, I certainly did. 
Beyond the name, also notice the date and the check number.


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## Maxx Awesome (Feb 2, 2009)

Finally saw episode two last night.
So, if Whitmore is one of The Others, does that mean that Penny is too, or is she just "half-other"?
Actually, a mate of mine had a theory that Whitmore may have once been responsible for moving the island (which is why he doesn't go back himself). 
And just who was that mysterious black man that was also present at John's birth (he showed up at several other points last season too)?

And, most importantly of all, what moisturiser is Richard using to maintain his youthful good looks after all these years & where can I get some?


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## marlowegarp (Feb 3, 2009)

I think that being an Other (in addition to their leadership ritual) is an involved process which by necessity involves people from off the island, like Ben and Julia. Otherwise, wouldn't they die out? I wonder why Locke failed his test...
Anyway, if so, the Others aren't so much a separate race (which I'd always assumed) but more of a tribe united by following Jacob. 

Also, just to get this straight, does all of the cool gear which the Others had prior to the time shifts really belong to the Dharma Iniative?

I loved that for a moment, Locke thought about killing Whitmore then decided that time would just play itself out.


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## Blackjack (Feb 3, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> Also, just to get this straight, does all of the cool gear which the Others had prior to the time shifts really belong to the Dharma Iniative?



If you mean like the stuff in the hatches and all that, then yes, it's from the Dharma Initiative.


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## marlowegarp (Feb 3, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> If you mean like the stuff in the hatches and all that, then yes, it's from the Dharma Initiative.



I know the stations were all Dharma but what about the submarine, automatic weaponry and electric monster-repelling fence?


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## Blackjack (Feb 3, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> I know the stations were all Dharma but what about the submarine, automatic weaponry and electric monster-repelling fence?



The sub was Dharma- that was how the initial Dharma people arrived at the island.

As for the weaponry, I'd assume that it's also Dharma, or leftover from the military presence that's been hinted at in that last episode.

The sonic fence is likely Dharma, but I can't say for certain; I'm pretty sure, though, that it doesn't predate the Initiative.


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## Ash (Feb 3, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> I wonder why Locke failed his test...



I assume that he failed the test because he couldn't identify Richard's compass--the one that future-Locke had brought to past-Richard to prove that he'd traveled through time. 

This is really frigging confusing in print, but I'm going to attempt it anyway.

When Locke was a child, Richard visited him and asked him to identify the two items that belonged to him (Locke). He did not identify the compass and, as a result, seemed to fail Richard's test. This brings up two questions for me. First, wasn't the compass always Richard's anyway? Richard gave it to Locke and told him to give it to past-Richard when they met again. So does this mean that Locke never really failed the test? By that logic, young Locke had the correct answer. 

Now. Second question. When Faraday changed the past (by knocking on the hatch and encountering Desmond), Desmond suddenly "remembered" the event in the present and then reacted to it. However, if Locke had traveled to the past and told Richard to visit him as a child (and Richard had done so to administer the test), wouldn't this have been something that Locke wouldn't have remembered until it happened? (Blah. Confusing, I know.) We were shown the flashback of Richard administering that test to Locke two seasons ago. What I'm getting at here is that maybe this IS the past. Maybe the time-traveling is what is supposed to happen and what has always happened in the loop of time. Maybe John Locke was always supposed to travel back and meet Richard and give him that compass. Maybe, by not returning to the island, the Oceanic 6 would be altering the past and THAT is what would cause this epic disaster.

This show rules, if only because it allows for theories like this.

Also, are we all agreed that Ms. Hawking, the woman who Ben met with in the church in LA and who said that everyone was going to die, is Faraday's mother?


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## Blackjack (Feb 3, 2009)

Ashley said:


> Now. Second question. When Faraday changed the past (by knocking on the hatch and encountering Desmond), Desmond suddenly "remembered" the event in the present and then reacted to it. However, if Locke had traveled to the past and told Richard to visit him as a child (and Richard had done so to administer the test), wouldn't this have been something that Locke wouldn't have remembered until it happened? (Blah. Confusing, I know.) We were shown the flashback of Richard administering that test to Locke two seasons ago. What I'm getting at here is that maybe this IS the past. Maybe the time-traveling is what is supposed to happen and what has always happened in the loop of time. Maybe John Locke was always supposed to travel back and meet Richard and give him that compass. Maybe, by not returning to the island, the Oceanic 6 would be altering the past and THAT is what would cause this epic disaster.



That's pretty much right as far as I can tell... it's a different take on time travel than the Back to the Future model, in which you can drastically alter things.

However, because it's been established that the model here is fairly rigid. Farraday illustrated it by saying that you can move forward or backward on the street, but you can't take a new street. And if you try to do something different, you will fail. Things that happened, happened.

However, in his encounter with Desmond in this season, Farraday stated that he's "special", and that "rules don't apply" to him. This likely refers to his temporal displacement seen in the S4 episode "The Constant". Considering that Desmond had no idea who Farraday was until he met him in S4- _even though we see them meeting in the past_- it would seem that his memory is not static.

Because of this, I don't think that it's accurate to say that Farraday changed the past, or the course of time in any way. This might just be part of the loop, and nothing was altered at all.



> Also, are we all agreed that Ms. Hawking, the woman who Ben met with in the church in LA and who said that everyone was going to die, is Faraday's mother?



I'd think so.

ETA: Regarding the compass... I think that it's going to be explained later on just where it came from. However, what we _do _know is that Richard gave it to Locke in the later-time; in the past, Locke gave it to Richard; and then Richard tested Locke with it shortly after that past-time. It's currently also in the time-loop, creating quite the paradox.


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## marlowegarp (Feb 3, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox

The Ontological Paradox, if I'm understanding it correctly, is the most common logical flaw in sci-fi. Richard went to see Locke as a boy, to test him. Why, though, without Locke having been made distinctive to the Others, would Richard go originally? And why wouldn't Locke remember?

Gargoyles had a similar lapse in logic. In it, the Archmage loses a battle with Goliath and falls off a cliff. Just before he dies, he is saved, apparently by a future version of himself who tells him how to acquire objects of power and eventually be his own savior. The problem with this is, for him to be there to save himself in the first place, someone must have saved him or there is, as the article phrases it, "no discernible origin".


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## Maxx Awesome (Feb 4, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox
> 
> The Ontological Paradox, if I'm understanding it correctly, is the most common logical flaw in sci-fi. Richard went to see Locke as a boy, to test him. Why, though, without Locke having been made distinctive to the Others, would Richard go originally? And why wouldn't Locke remember?



I think the idea is that Richard went because "Future (Present)" Locke told him to go. That's the reason he went in the first place. It's like in _Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure_; at the start of the movie it's established that Bill's Dad's keys are missing (& have been for two weeks). Later on in the movie our heroes need those same keys to get into the police station (I think). In order to get the keys, the boys have to travel back in time two weeks ago to get the keys when their whereabouts are known. However, it's the fact that they travel back to get the keys & take them two weeks into the future that causes them to go missing in the first place.
See what I'm getting at?
And who would've thought that _Lost_ would have parallels to _Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure_?


----------



## marlowegarp (Feb 4, 2009)

Interesting. Locke's ability to start a chain of events in which he contributes to his own identity in the future is kind of incumbent upon the ability of time to adapt (but never change) to new elements introduced within it. The way time travel works in Lost is a lot more fun, because it lets new things happen in the past without the "step on a bug, end the world" side. Most time travel scenarios purport to use that model , but then ignore it by having characters go back in time and then proceed to blow shit up with no visible consequences. 

Bill and Ted connects to everything. I really hope Hurley will say 'be excellent to each other' before the show ends.


----------



## Maxx Awesome (Feb 4, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> Interesting. Locke's ability to start a chain of events in which he contributes to his own identity in the future is kind of incumbent upon the ability of time to adapt (but never change) to new elements introduced within it. The way time travel works in Lost is a lot more fun, because it lets new things happen in the past without the "step on a bug, end the world" side. Most time travel scenarios purport to use that model , but then ignore it by having characters go back in time and then proceed to blow shit up with no visible consequences.
> 
> Bill and Ted connects to everything. I really hope Hurley will say 'be excellent to each other' before the show ends.



Way I see it is this is the way it always happened (same with Daniel talking to Desmond), it's only now that we're finding out about it. The Dan/Desmond thing actually happened x number of years ago, but Des had just forgot about it 'til just recently. Also, he went crazy in the hatch & when it blew up causing him to lose his memory a wee bit...

Captain Ret-Con, AWAAAAAAAAY!


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay, the major nagging question right now is who hired that lawyer to take Aaron away from Kate.

I'd also just like to note that the shots of Hawaii just now, when Charlotte was just waking up, were especially outstanding.


EDIT: Well that solves that, then.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 4, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> EDIT: Well that solves that, then.



Okay, no it doesn't.

EDIT: Okay yes it was just solved... in a totally off-hand manner, which was a disappointment.


----------



## Ash (Feb 4, 2009)

SO.

It appears that, when the boat exploded, Jin was blown into the past? Or maybe he's just flashing through like the rest of them.

*mind boggles*


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 4, 2009)

First off, I'd personally recommend that we put spoilers in white for the first 24 hours or so after a new episode... just out of courtesy to the folks who're not on EST, or who can't watch it at the time it's originally broadcast. I know I sound like a pain in the ass for it, but I wouldn't want to know this kind of thing immediately before I end up watching the episode, y'know?

Now, on to the meat of the post:



Ashley said:


> SO.
> 
> It appears that, when the boat exploded, SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER?
> 
> *mind boggles*



It would make a certain amount of sense, assuming that when the boat blew, Jin was somehow flung clear. With regard to probabilities, it's far more likely than, say, sixty-some-odd people surviving a plane crash, so I'm willing to roll with it.

Anyways, if that did happen, then if Jin got close enough to the island he'd be caught up in the flashes with everyone else, which would place him at exactly the point in time that they're in.

Lastly, when Locke and the rest of the motley crew found the wreckage on the beach and it was all in French, I think that it became pretty clear just when they were, just like earlier with the beam of light in the woods, that came from the hatch. That one, based on Locke's reaction, was fairly obvious.


On a side-note, it seems like Michael won't be back for a while again- Harold Perrineau is on a new show on ABC, _The Unusuals_, which looks like it ought to be funny. It's a real bummer, too, because as controversial as Michael's actions may be, he's always been an interesting character and I was delighted that he returned last season.


----------



## Edens_heel (Feb 5, 2009)

Okay, here's a thought:

If the nosebleeds are in relation to time spent on the island, then it actually might make sense that Miles, Charlotte, and Juliet would get them for everyone else. Juliet, after all has been there for more than two years, in the season 4 finale they alluded to Charlotte having been on the island before, but Miles? Anyone else thinking that Miles was Dr. Marvin Candle's baby from the first five minutes of this season?

I do so love having my mind frakked with. Right now I'm not sure which is more mind-blowing - this or Galactica.

Oh, and Ashley, I don't think Jin was blown into the past so much as he was in the proximity of the island when they started skipping through time, and so he's with the rest of them whenever they hop, skip, and fumble their way through time.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 5, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Anyone else thinking that Miles was Dr. Marvin Candle's baby from the first five minutes of this season?



Ooh, good call on that one. I hadn't picked up on that.

And re-watching that segment (thank you, ABC full episode viewer), I think that we might see more of Candle in the future. Or past-future... whatever. Faraday's presence there, in light of what's been happening, says that it's probable that the main characters end up jumping to that time when the Dharma station is being built. What they're doing there I have no idea, but I look forward to finding out.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 5, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Okay, here's a thought:
> 
> If the nosebleeds are in relation to time spent on the island, then it actually might make sense that Miles, Charlotte, and Juliet would get them for everyone else. Juliet, after all has been there for more than two years, in the season 4 finale they alluded to Charlotte having been on the island before, but Miles? Anyone else thinking that Miles was Dr. Marvin Candle's baby from the first five minutes of this season?




Ohhh, seriously good catch! Miles even has the same frustrated stare that Dr. Chang has when in The Orchid station dealing with the big scary energy problem.

Here's another interesting bit - did anyone see the video "leaked" at Comic Con 08? The cameraman in the Dharma transmission sounds crazily like Miles. And is in a bit of a hurry... why? Mmhmm. Just another little connection and theory. 

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dharma_booth_video

I hope we have a Miles episode soon, I am fascinated by his character.


----------



## Still a Skye fan (Feb 5, 2009)

Yay! Jin's alive!! (I knew it!) 

And he got saved by...~Gasp!~ French people! 

Heehee! Actually, it was neat to see what a hottie the young, preggers, Danielle Rousseau was.

Yes, it was pretty much a given that Linus was the mysterious client trying to take Aaron away from Kate...that's the sort of thing a crafty weasel like him would do.

This season has been amazing so far!


Dennis

PS: The last time I checked, my Dharma Initiative mug was still resting in my kitchen cupboard at home with the rest of my mugs, so, it hasn't been time traveling...yet!


----------



## activistfatgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Ohhh, seriously good catch! Miles even has the same frustrated stare that Dr. Chang has when in The Orchid station dealing with the big scary energy problem.
> 
> Here's another interesting bit - did anyone see the video "leaked" at Comic Con 08? The cameraman in the Dharma transmission sounds crazily like Miles. And is in a bit of a hurry... why? Mmhmm. Just another little connection and theory.
> 
> ...





OH, I think it sounds like the physicist...Faraday, not Miles...which could make sense. My head hurts.


----------



## Maxx Awesome (Feb 9, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Okay, here's a thought:
> 
> If the nosebleeds are in relation to time spent on the island, then it actually might make sense that Miles, Charlotte, and Juliet would get them for everyone else. Juliet, after all has been there for more than two years, in the season 4 finale they alluded to Charlotte having been on the island before, but Miles? Anyone else thinking that Miles was Dr. Marvin Candle's baby from the first five minutes of this season?



Wow! What a concept that is. Must say, I felt a bit let down by this episode. Apart from the return of Jin & the encounter with the Frenchies there was nothing else that really happened of much interest. I disliked the "revelation" that Ben was behind the plot to take Aaron. It was just, like, "Yes, it was me..." It seemed to lack drama (maybe because it was too obvious).


----------



## Maxx Awesome (Feb 9, 2009)

Also, I just saw this & thought some of you guys might want to see it too:
Locke Can't Wait to be King!


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 11, 2009)

OH MY FREAKING GOD HIS ARM CAME OFF

And where the hell is this temple they're at now? Could this be the Temple that the Others were headed for during S4?

Also, the glyphics on the walls of those ruins are the same as the ones that were shown at in the hatch when the button wasn't pushed... just in case anyone missed that.

ETA: Looks like there's a bit more explanation too about the monster, which I'm plenty grateful for. Not much, but there's a little bit there.

Also, Jin officially has THE WORST LUCK IN THE WORLD with boats. This is twice now that he's been stranded at sea on account of an exploded boat... and thinking about it, it's twice in the span of like two or three months.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm right with you!


Two things:

1. So weird to see Rousseau NOT crazy. 

2. Jin just broke my heart. "Where's Sun?" Omigod.


eta: srslyhisarm.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 11, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> I'm right with you!
> 
> 
> Two things:
> ...



It's actually great to see what caused her to go crazy.

How the hell does Charlotte know Korean? And how did Jin know that she knows?

ETA: And these shifts are getting worse and worse... it's unnerving, really. Although that last line before the break was very campy and threw off that godawful dread by sounding so poor.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 11, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> It's actually great to see what caused her to go crazy.
> 
> How the hell does Charlotte know Korean? And how did Jin know that she knows?
> 
> ETA: And these shifts are getting worse and worse... it's unnerving, really... although that last line before the break was very camp.



Last season, Jin and Sun were speaking Korean in front of her to keep what they were saying private because they didn't trust the freighter folks. Charlotte laughed at something they said, giving away that she comprehended to them.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 11, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Last season, Jin and Sun were speaking Korean in front of her to keep what they were saying private because they didn't trust the freighter folks. Charlotte laughed at something they said, giving away that she comprehended to them.



Forgot about that... thanks for the reminder.

Her backstory was pretty interesting, though. Nothing unexpected, but it cleared things up nicely.

They're really de-muddying the waters here with a lot of things. There's still plenty of mystery, but there's so much that's been explained that was nagging at me.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 11, 2009)

Crackpot thoughts, not actual theories:

What if Charlotte is the friend Ben had as a child? Y'know, with the dolls as a birthday present?

Also, how crazy of a man do you have to be before you live in a cabin in the woods that is always surrounded by ash and moves through space and perhaps time?


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 11, 2009)

Okay, Jin is absolutely breaking my heart here.



out.of.habit said:


> Also, how crazy of a man do you have to be before you live in a cabin in the woods that is always surrounded by ash and moves through space and perhaps time?



Personally, I'm not at all convinced that Jacob is human. I don't know what he is, but he's something... different.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 11, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Okay, Jin is absolutely breaking my heart here.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I'm not at all convinced that Jacob is human. I don't know what he is, but he's something... different.



Four toes different or creepy soaking wet Walt in the woods different?


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 11, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Four toes different or creepy soaking wet Walt in the woods different?



Jack's dead father coming and interacting with everyone different.

Smoke monster different.

Unaging indigenous population different.

And may I say that Locke is _amazingly _willing to go through with all this... also, theorizing that the wheel being off-axis may have disrupted the flow of time and Locke fixing it might just stop the time jumps.

ETA: OMGWTFBBQSCOTSMAN


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 11, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Jack's dead father coming and interacting with everyone different.
> 
> Smoke monster different.
> 
> ...



Ha ha ha, BBQSCOTSMAN. 

Tell me you saw that coming, though. I do love when Desmond's around. Thoughts on whether or not Des goes back to the island?


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 11, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Ha ha ha, BBQSCOTSMAN.
> 
> Tell me you saw that coming, though. I do love when Desmond's around. Thoughts on whether or not Des goes back to the island?



I think that it's possible. He _did _leave at the same time as everyone else; however, he didn't arrive at the same time, so he might not have to return.

I'm going to have to reflect on all this a bit more tonight while I WoW. More from me later.


----------



## Still a Skye fan (Feb 12, 2009)

Once again, this show left me going "wow".

I enjoyed finally learning a little bit about the smoke monster but I'd enjoy knowing more.

That poor guy losing his arm...gah!

Seeing what pushed Danielle over the edge! 

What's up with Jack and Claire's dead(?) Dad?

Jin's a great character and he proved it on last night's show.


I can't wait until next week! :happy:


Dennis


----------



## HDANGEL15 (Feb 14, 2009)

*TRULY one of the best episodes of all time....who is ELOISE...have we met her before?*


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 14, 2009)

HDANGEL15 said:


> *TRULY one of the best episodes of all time....who is ELOISE...have we met her before?*



You mean the lady in the church?

If so, she was the same woman that we saw in the episode with Desmond in Season Three, it was either "Catch-22" or "Flashes Before Your Eyes". I think the latter one, as she was explaining that no matter what he did, he could delay but not prevent the deaths that he was seeing.


----------



## Maxx Awesome (Feb 15, 2009)

So Christian IS Jacob? Or is he just assuming the form of Christian?
When the ginger girl started ranting that Daniel was a crazy old man she saw in her youth I began to think that maybe HE was Jacob.


----------



## Lavasse (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok so have they explained how Daniel ever got to the past in the first point?

They showed him in the first new episode of 2009 being int he past when they built the Orchid Station wasn't it, and Charlotte said she thought he was the crazy old man from her youth, but did they say how he got there?


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 15, 2009)

Maxx Awesome said:


> So Christian IS Jacob? Or is he just assuming the form of Christian?



I don't htink that Christian _is _Jacob... the latter seems more likely, although I don't think that it's so much assuming his image as it is using his image.

As for Charlotte's crazy old man... it probably is Farraday, and it's probable that when he does go back to the Orchid's building (which I'm pretty sure will happen via the flashes by the end of this season, as I've said), we'll see their encounter.

I don't think that Farraday is Jacob, though that is an interesting idea and I can see it possibly working out. Like I said, I think that Jacob is... something else.


----------



## Maxx Awesome (Feb 16, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> I don't htink that Christian _is _Jacob... the latter seems more likely, although I don't think that it's so much assuming his image as it is using his image.
> 
> As for Charlotte's crazy old man... it probably is Farraday, and it's probable that when he does go back to the Orchid's building (which I'm pretty sure will happen via the flashes by the end of this season, as I've said), we'll see their encounter.
> 
> I don't think that Farraday is Jacob, though that is an interesting idea and I can see it possibly working out. Like I said, I think that Jacob is... something else.



So, in the instances when we saw Christian in the past (with Claire & talking to Jack), that was clearly Jacob. It's just that when we catch a brief glimpse of Jacob in Season 3 (the scene where Ben takes Locke to the cabin) he has long, scraggly hair & a beard, which is why I thought it may be Daniel, up until the point Christian appeared & started going on about how he told Locke to move the island. Unless, at some point, Farraday goes back & gains a full understanding of the island, thus becoming Jacob... Sounds like an odd concept, but stranger things have happened (especially on this show).


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm not sure that we have enough information about Jacob to _seriously_ consider who he might be. The theories are very interesting, though. I'd love to see them explain Jacob as a character or entity in his own right, somehow, even though I've wondered "what if Jacob is _Actually_ XyzName." I'm also thinking that we've got to see more of Walt (taller-ghost or otherwise). They put too much into how special he was to just send him home and prod Hurley and ignore Michael.

I'm incredibly sad at how few episodes there will be until the end of the show entirely. Think there's any chance they'll change their minds about the 6 season deal?


----------



## Maxx Awesome (Feb 16, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> I'm not sure that we have enough information about Jacob to _seriously_ consider who he might be. The theories are very interesting, though. I'd love to see them explain Jacob as a character or entity in his own right, somehow, even though I've wondered "what if Jacob is _Actually_ XyzName." I'm also thinking that we've got to see more of Walt (taller-ghost or otherwise). They put too much into how special he was to just send him home and prod Hurley and ignore Michael.
> 
> I'm incredibly sad at how few episodes there will be until the end of the show entirely. Think there's any chance they'll change their minds about the 6 season deal?



I really don't want them to ignore Walt. So much effort was put into building him up in Season 1, what with Locke's interest in the boy & The Others wanting to kidnap him... He HAS to come back! And we deserve a full explanation of exactly what his "powers" are.


----------



## marlowegarp (Feb 16, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> Ok so have they explained how Daniel ever got to the past in the first point?
> 
> They showed him in the first new episode of 2009 being int he past when they built the Orchid Station wasn't it, and Charlotte said she thought he was the crazy old man from her youth, but did they say how he got there?



I don't think they have explained it yet. 

I think Jacob can appear as anyone but only if they're dead, so Walt is...actually Walt, but Boone and several other characters are Jacob. 

In terms of Christian being Jacob, that I'm not so sure about. The show is massively concerned with the, ehh, Daddy Issues there. I think Hurley's father as well as Locke/ Sawyer's and Jack/Claire's will turn out to be one of the Others. 

Why is Sayid helping Ben? Is it because Ben knows where Sayid's ladyfriend is?


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 16, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Think there's any chance they'll change their minds about the 6 season deal?



Only six? I thought they were going seven or eight.

Then again, that was like a year and a half ago I read that, so I'm probably wrong.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 16, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> Why is Sayid helping Ben? Is it because Ben knows where Sayid's ladyfriend is?



That was all last season...

Sayid found Nadia, married her, and she was killed very shortly thereafter. Ben showed up and said that he knew who was responsible, and Sayid took to killing whoever Ben told him to in order to get to the guy who killed Nadia.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 16, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Only six? I thought they were going seven or eight.
> 
> Then again, that was like a year and a half ago I read that, so I'm probably wrong.




Here's an article where they say that it will be ending in 2010, with the 16 episodes for each of the last 3 seasons. Though, that was prior to the writer's strike. I'm guessing we won't be recouping the hours lost to the strike.
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20038202,00.html

Here's a recent article confirming that it's still true, no changes in plan. *sniffle* *whimper*

Written just after the premiere. No spoilers if you've seen up until 2/4/09.
http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2009/01/22/planning_ahead_to_the_end_of_lost/


----------



## Edens_heel (Feb 16, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Here's an article where they say that it will be ending in 2010, with the 16 episodes for each of the last 3 seasons. Though, that was prior to the writer's strike. I'm guessing we won't be recouping the hours lost to the strike.
> http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20038202,00.html
> 
> Here's a recent article confirming that it's still true, no changes in plan. *sniffle* *whimper*
> ...



Saw an interview with Damon Lindelof a while back - mentioned that because of the writer's strike, this season and season 6 would actually be 17 hours, not 16, to make up for it!


----------



## marlowegarp (Feb 16, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> That was all last season...
> 
> Sayid found Nadia, married her, and she was killed very shortly thereafter. Ben showed up and said that he knew who was responsible, and Sayid took to killing whoever Ben told him to in order to get to the guy who killed Nadia.



Ooooooooh yeah! Man, Sayid cannot get a break.


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 17, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Saw an interview with Damon Lindelof a while back - mentioned that because of the writer's strike, this season and season 6 would actually be 17 hours, not 16, to make up for it!



As weird as it sounds, that actually makes me feel a little better. Thank you!


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 18, 2009)

Worst last words ever:

"I'm not allowed to have chocolate before dinner." *sputter* *fizzle*


So. Show of hands that think we won't see Charlotte again?


...
...

I didn't think so.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Worst last words ever:
> 
> "I'm not allowed to have chocolate before dinner." *sputter* *fizzle*
> 
> ...



Pfff, you haven't heard a really bad death line if you think that's the worst.

Oh, and this was pointed out to me last week... The name on the plumbing van that Locke's body is in is CANTON-RAINER

canton rainer ----> reincarnation


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 18, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Pfff, you haven't heard a really bad death line if you think that's the worst.
> 
> Oh, and this was pointed out to me last week... The name on the plumbing van that Locke's body is in is CANTON-RAINER
> 
> canton rainer ----> reincarnation



Beej that's awesome. Like the funeral parlor and flash forward. Very cool. 



Holy crap I love this episode.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

Holy hell, they're right back at the start of things! That pool was where they found the marshal's briefcase with the guns, and I'll be damned if that doesn't look exactly like where Jack woke up way back when.

Also, was that Charlie's guitar case?


----------



## Ash (Feb 18, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Holy hell, they're right back at the start of things! That pool was where they found the marshal's briefcase with the guns, and I'll be damned if that doesn't look exactly like where Jack woke up way back when.
> 
> Also, was that Charlie's guitar case?



Yep, same things are running through my mind. For a split second I thought we were having a flashback to the first episode. 

This is shaping up to be a good one.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

"This fellow" who created the pendulum- could it be Farraday?


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 18, 2009)

I don't know about that. That would suggest that Farraday found the island prior to their research in time travel, and I'm not sure he could have been old enough at the time. But again, I'm sure it's far more complex than I can consider to tap out on a phone during the break.Hehe


----------



## Ash (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm betting that it's Faraday. Anything can happen. Perhaps he's ageless like Richard?


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> I don't know about that. That would suggest that Farraday found the island prior to their research in time travel, and I'm not sure he could have been old enough at the time. But again, I'm sure it's far more complex than I can consider to tap out on a phone during the break.Hehe



What I figured, too. With all the jumping around, it's impossible to say for sure what's what.

And who the heck is this guy? (nevermind on this one)

ETA: Farraday isn't ageless like Richard- not likely, at least. Totally displaced in time, is more probalbe.


----------



## Lavasse (Feb 18, 2009)

What Did She Do With Aaron???!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!


----------



## Ash (Feb 18, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> What Did She Do With Aaron???!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!



I'd imagine, if Sun doesn't go back, he's with her. If Sun DOES go back, she won't take her daughter, so my guess is that, wherever Sun and Jin's baby is, that's where Aaron is.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

Jack lied about the shoes... a plenty big lie, too.

Unsettlingly, my father called me during the last commercial break... it's weird because of the paternal nature of the recent events. I had to cut the call short 'cause the show came back on, I better call him when it's over.

Oh, lastly, Hurley's reading _Y: The Last Man_, which is a series of graphic novels about a virus wiping out every male on the planet except for one. I've been meaning to look into reading it, now I have a better reason for it.


----------



## Ash (Feb 18, 2009)

Frank! 

!


----------



## Lavasse (Feb 18, 2009)

I wonder if Desmond didn't get on the plane too


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

"How can you read?"

"My mother taught me."

I ROFL'd.

...although it's totally false, thinking about it.


----------



## Blackjack (Feb 18, 2009)

NOOOO.... No way! Holy shit!


----------



## Lavasse (Feb 18, 2009)

THEY TIMEFLASHED WITHOUT THE PLANE 

THAT HAS GOT TO HURT

And when did everyone start working for Dharma lol first Daniel now Jin lol


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 18, 2009)

So are we thinking they got sucked into the flashes when near "the window" and that the plane didn't actually crash? 

Think Ben was beat up by Sayid and that's how he ended up in the custody of a marshall? OR did Desmond beat him up when he went to kill Penny in that eye for an eye sort of a way? 

graaaaahhh! 

AND JIN! In Dharma gear! NEAT! I don't think he'd be working for Dharma unless he needed to in order to fit in, and/or save the island/Sun/etc, though.

I was really happy to see Frank. I wonder if he's meant for the island.


----------



## Edens_heel (Feb 19, 2009)

My sister's theory is that all of it could have something to do with Frank because he was supposed to be the original pilot of Flight 815 - did his not being on there throw fate off its axis a little?

Theories aside, I love how fast this season is moving - I was thinking that they would drag out the getting back to the island until the finale. But it already seems as if we're tracing back to the season opener that showed Daniel and the construction of the Orchid. So now we get the true Darma backstory.

I'm thinking that when they do find the coffin, it will be empty and that Locke will replace Christian as the defacto "Jacob," or something to that effect.

What I really want to know though, was what was the deal with that guy that gave Jack his condolences at the airport? I understand the air marshall was needed to repeat the scenario that Kate had in the first place, but what about him? Is he replacing anyone, or is he just going to be randomly sucked into the island with them?

I'm starting to think, now that they are bringing in the military files and so many aspects in respect who knew of the islands existence, that this show might just be the greatest magic trick ever pulled, and truly the solution will be simpler than the grand sum of its parts - as in, all the character connections might have something to do with the island, or they might exist as an allegory for the nature of fate and its hold over destiny (which goes back to the "Frank has to die" theory), but it would also be a massive-scale act of misdirection.

Thoughts?


----------



## Edens_heel (Feb 19, 2009)

And another thought - Ben's wounds. Did he act on his threat to take on Penny to get revenge at Widmore? Is Desmond going to hunt down the island to extract revenge in a gloriously violent way?

Plus: love that they mention that the island is always moving - goes back to Faraday's experiments early on in season 4, realizing that the island is always a bit out of sync with reality.


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## OneWickedAngel (Feb 19, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Pfff, you haven't heard a really bad death line if you think that's the worst.
> 
> Oh, and this was pointed out to me last week... The name on the plumbing van that Locke's body is in is CANTON-RAINER
> 
> canton rainer ----> reincarnation



I noticed that also! I think it is perfect because somehow I just know John Locke is going to be running amok on the island alive and well (in whatever the time period for the island) and driving Sheppard crazy. 

What I want to know is WHAT HAPPENED TO AARON?!?!?!


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## OneWickedAngel (Feb 19, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Holy hell, they're right back at the start of things! That pool was where they found the marshal's briefcase with the guns, and I'll be damned if that doesn't look exactly like where Jack woke up way back when.
> 
> Also, was that Charlie's guitar case?



I think it is Charlie's guitar case. Just as Jack had to have something of his father's on the plane, something of Charlie's had to be there also. 

Which brings two more queries:

If Hurley wasn't talking to Ben (or Jack or anyone else for that matter), how did he know about the flight and to bring the case?
Presuming the island is only concerned about the "living" who made it off and the Guam flight was a representation of the original 815 - What if anything represented prenatal Aaron?


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## OneWickedAngel (Feb 19, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> ...
> 
> Is Desmond going to hunt down the island to extract revenge in a gloriously violent way?
> ...




Forgive me, but... MAN I HOPE SO!


----------



## out.of.habit (Feb 19, 2009)

OneWickedAngel said:


> I think it is Charlie's guitar case. Just as Jack had to have something of his father's on the plane, something of Charlie's had to be there also.
> 
> Which brings two more queries:
> 
> ...



I'm wondering if Hurley got a visit from Charlie again, somehow. Or a representative of Charlie. Especially because Charlie's guitar never left the island. Far fetched, but could Charlie's brother Liam have visited Hurley? (All statements made under the assumption that it _is_ Charlie's guitar.)

As for Aaron, my thoughts are that his absence has caused a yet to be seen problem, as Eloise had said that the less similar things were, the less stable the re-arrival to the island. That said, I'm now wondering about Kate and the possibility of her being pregnant. Either way, it's going to be VERY interesting. 

Other thoughts about Aaron:
I'm wondering if Kate took him to Claire's mother, at least for the time being. She'd never have been able to get Aaron to Korea and get back to LA in that amount of time, and I really doubt that she'd have put him on a plane alone.

Train of thought derailing, but bear with me...
What if she went to Ben, feeling guilty about the others' (not THE OTHERS) trouble on the island, and asked him why he wanted Aaron? It would rock quite a lot if Kate was the one that beat the hell out of Ben. I'm just trying to figure out why she didn't want Jack to ask about Aaron. She wouldn't be ashamed of asking Sun's mother or Claire's mother to watch over him. Though, it is a valid point, thinking about Aaron being where Ji-Yeon is. The two children are very connected with the island.


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## out.of.habit (Feb 19, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Theories aside, I love how fast this season is moving - I was thinking that they would drag out the getting back to the island until the finale. But it already seems as if we're tracing back to the season opener that showed Daniel and the construction of the Orchid. So now we get the true Darma backstory.



So excited about this!




> What I really want to know though, was what was the deal with that guy that gave Jack his condolences at the airport? I understand the air marshall was needed to repeat the scenario that Kate had in the first place, but what about him? Is he replacing anyone, or is he just going to be randomly sucked into the island with them?



Seriously, that was very curious. I really wonder about that guy. I can't wait to find out if the extra folks end up on the island, and even if the plane actually crashed. And speaking of the marshall... why is Sayid being extradited to GUAM? Also, when he saw all of the others, do you think he resigned himself to the fact that this was happening? Do you think he was protecting himself or even protecting everyone else by not causing a scene on the plane?



> Thoughts?



They said they were in answer mode now! Liars! 

It wouldn't be Lost without all of the questions, though. I love that.


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## Sweet_Serenade (Feb 19, 2009)

I really dug last nights episode.
Right now I'm just very curious as to just why the Oceanic 6 have to return, what is it they're exactly going to do there?
I know it was mentioned numerous times that it involves saving the rest of the people on the island, but somehow I doubt that's it.
Maybe it's obvious and I'm not reading into something, but I'm uber curious to see where the plot goes.


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## marlowegarp (Feb 20, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> Oh, lastly, Hurley's reading _Y: The Last Man_, which is a series of graphic novels about a virus wiping out every male on the planet except for one. I've been meaning to look into reading it, now I have a better reason for it.



Y: The Last Man is also written by Brian K. Vaughan who produces and sometimes writes the show.


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## Lavasse (Feb 25, 2009)

Good God Ben killed John


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## Ash (Feb 25, 2009)

Again, Lost is the eternal mind-fuck. 

Love. it.


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## out.of.habit (Feb 25, 2009)

I can't wait to find out why Sayid was on his way to Guam. 

I hope he speaks in Spanish some more...


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## OneWickedAngel (Feb 25, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> Good God Ben killed John


 
Man! Wasn't that an _awesome_ twist?! 

We know he only tried to kill John because he thought he could come back and take over being Head Other In Charge of the island again. I can't wait to see Ben's face when he wakes up and finds John and hopefully about to add to his bruises!

Bringing the teenage Walt in was a nice touch. Also nice to know Walt still has his creepy "powers". He's "special" too... think he'll be running the Island someday?


Now here are some new questions: 

Why didn't either John or Ben flash with the rest of the O6 (Oceanic Six)?
If Locke didn't convince Hurley to go go back - what did?
I now theorize that Ben arranged for Sayiid to be arrested in Santo Domingo and brought to Cali so he could be on that plane.
We know Ceasar was in Faraday's old office at Oxford. We get a glance of the pendulum schematic and can easily guess it was the genesis of the event horizon clock that Mrs. Hawkings used to figure out when and where the Losties could get back to the island. WHO is Ceasar? WHY did/does he want to get to the Island? And now that he is on the island WHAT is he doing/about to do?
And speaking of Widmore: The war that Widmore mentioned to Locke - could it be between Ben and John and winner takes all?
Hmmmmm....


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## Blackjack (Feb 26, 2009)

I have to be honest... I wasn't all that thrilled with tonight's episode, and there weren't really any big surprises.

Actually, that's not true. The one thing that did surprise me greatly was Ben's admission after killing Locke that he would miss him. It's unusual to hear any truth from Ben, and since there's nobody there to lie to, I can't help but believe that this might be one of those rare incidents where he _is _actually being honest.


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## Edens_heel (Feb 26, 2009)

Loved tonight's ep - especially with tying Abbadon into the mythology behind the connections. It makes me think that maybe all those coincidental encounters were pre-ordained by Whidmore as some grand scheme of chess, and getting everyone on the plane in Sydney was his checkmate to disrupt Ben's plans. But the Oceanic Six put a wrench into that and both Ben and Charles have had to improvise, thus leading into the manipulation of Locke on a massive scale, which i'm guessing will lead into the war.

One plot hole in tonight's ep though - at the very end of season 4, when Jack and Ben are talking in the funeral home, Ben asks Jack if Locke told him that he was off the island, and Jack responded in the positive. Tonight, however, we see none of that info given. Hell, when Locke meets Jack, Locke doesn't even know yet that Ben was the one who shot at him and killed Abbadon.

Anyone else pick up on this? I don't think it will stay a hole - at this point I have enough faith that any holes are intentional, but right now it stands out.


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## OneWickedAngel (Feb 26, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Loved tonight's ep - especially with tying Abbadon into the mythology behind the connections. ...snip...
> 
> One plot hole in tonight's ep though - at the very end of season 4, when Jack and Ben are talking in the funeral home, Ben asks Jack if Locke told him that he was off the island, and Jack responded in the positive. Tonight, however, we see none of that info given. Hell, when Locke meets Jack, Locke doesn't even know yet that Ben was the one who shot at him and killed Abbadon.


 
Closing off the Abbadon mystery was cool. But I am not surprised at all on the violent way he died. Sorry, but dude gave off the serious creepies!

I think it closed a hole (answered a question) actually? If I remember the scene correctly, Jack simply nodded in the affirmative to Ben's query; he didn't offer anything else. Typical LOST style, we did not know the details of how Jack knew Locke was off the island until last night. Think about it - if Ben was following (or having followed) everyone as he told Locke before he murdered him, he knew exactly what hospital Locke was in. I think Ben ever the manipulator just wanted to see if Jack was going to tell him the truth at the time. Maybe as a gauge to see how malleable Sheppard was and it worked. 

Noticed when Ben was talking to Locke he mentioned Jack booked a one day roundtrip flight to Austrailia? Would that be the flight shown on the very first flash forward from Season 3 ender?


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## Blackjack (Feb 26, 2009)

OneWickedAngel said:


> Noticed when Ben was talking to Locke he mentioned Jack booked a one day roundtrip flight to Austrailia? Would that be the flight shown on the very first flash forward from Season 3 ender?



Probably not- he'd noted in that flash forward at the end of S3 that he'd been doing it for a while. While it's probably not _the_ flight that we saw- Jack was significantly scruffier in S3 than he was here- I don't think that it's long afterwards.


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## out.of.habit (Feb 26, 2009)

OneWickedAngel said:


> Noticed when Ben was talking to Locke he mentioned Jack booked a one day roundtrip flight to Austrailia? Would that be the flight shown on the very first flash forward from Season 3 ender?





Blackjack said:


> Probably not- he'd noted in that flash forward at the end of S3 that he'd been doing it for a while. While it's probably not _the_ flight that we saw- Jack was significantly scruffier in S3 than he was here- I don't think that it's long afterwards.



I'm with Beej on this one. Jack has returned to being functional after his original post-island bender, and I don't think there'd be enough time for Jack to become Bearded Jack/House and recover again between seeing Locke at the hospital and seeing Locke in the funeral home.


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## Edens_heel (Feb 26, 2009)

If I remember my season 4 finale properly, Jack says that Locke was in the hospital a month before he and Ben met at the funeral parlor. So for a month Jack was doing the Sydney trips. The Locke visit screwed him up heavily, especially with Christian mentioned, but it was Locke's suicide that brought about the slightest questioning of "what if I have a fate?" for Jack. My guess is that seeing Locke alive on the island will be the big push to get Jack more in line with being a man of faith and less of a man of science.

It's starting to shape up that Jack represents the everyman that we view the island through - not so much the protagonist, but as the vessel for us. Desmond is the one truly decent person on the show. Locke is clearly the Christ metaphor for Lost. So that leaves Ben and Whidmore - which of these is truly evil and which hold a shade of good I have no idea, but I still feel that Whidmore will be the villain in the end. Ben truly does want what's best for the island, he is just willing to do literally ANYTHING to make sure he achieves his goal of protecting the island. Whidmore will strip it clean and use it to his own benefit, and I have a feeling that the bomb that is buried will play a huge role in that (I just beat Bioshock the other day and it's making me think of the evil ending for that - I got the good ending, but Youtubed the evil one, lol).


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## Still a Skye fan (Feb 27, 2009)

This week's episode?

Outstanding! It was neat to see Walt again. I wasn't expecting Ben to kill Locke...who then proceeds to get better and come back from his own murder!  ~Head explodes~

I'm curious what happened to Aaron and why Kate wouldn't talk about it and why is Jin dressed in a Dharma Initiative jumpsuit and holding a gun on his friends?

Yes, this series is a real mindfuck and I love every bit of it.


Dennis


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## cabelhigh (Mar 1, 2009)

Guess what?
This show still rocks!
Last wensday's was one of the best ever.
Wahoo!


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## cabelhigh (Mar 1, 2009)

Still a Skye fan said:


> Yes, this series is a real mindfuck and I love every bit of it.
> 
> Dennis



I dunno, this season is less of a mindfuck than season 3, which was mindfuck Armageddon...what ever happened to that "magic box?" Or the temple?


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## Maxx Awesome (Mar 2, 2009)

Still a Skye fan said:


> Outstanding! It was neat to see Walt again. I wasn't expecting Ben to kill Locke...who then proceeds to get better and come back from his own murder!  ~Head explodes~



Here's the thing... Locke came back from the dead after he crashed on the island again, right? So, I'm wondering if this is similar to the way that Locke's paralysis & Rose's cancer were cured when they crashed initally... &, if so, would that mean that Christian is actually alive & not merely a projection of the island as I previously thought (having been cured from death)?


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## marlowegarp (Mar 2, 2009)

That's an excellent point. So if you are dead, the island revives you, but if you die on the island you stay dead. If that's the case, hopefully Boone will stay dead. 

Another possibility is that the resurrections only work if you are tied to the island. Ben would probably not be resurrected for example. At the moment my thought is that the fathers: Hurley's, Kate/Jack's and Sawyer/Locke's are Others who tried to escape to the outside world and the island is trying to balance the scales with their kids.


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## Blackjack (Mar 4, 2009)

OH


MY

GAWD

STATUE


srsly omg


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## Blackjack (Mar 4, 2009)

Locke = Godot right now.

Also, Sawyer's being very uncharacteristic right now in his leadership. It's interesting, to say the least, but it's just really strange for me, since he's always been so against leadership seemingly for the sake of rebellion.

Although this bit here between Sawyer and Juliet kind of explains his behavior before.


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## Ash (Mar 4, 2009)

TWO WEEKS?! 

Two weeks until the next new episode.

Torture.


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## Edens_heel (Mar 5, 2009)

Okay peeps, time for this weeks exploration into mind-fuckery (That's totally a real word. For realz). Namely, the statue.

We only saw it from behind, but I'm going to throw it out that it's Egyptian. The long hair down the back reminded me of Anubis. The bio, courtesy of Wikipedia:

Anubis is the Greek name[1] for a jackal-headed god associated with mummification and the afterlife in Egyptian mythology. In the ancient Egyptian language, Anubis is known as Inpu, (variously spelled Anupu, Ienpw etc.)[2]. The oldest known mention of Anubis is in the Old Kingdom pyramid texts, where he is associated with the burial of the king.[3] At this time, Anubis was the most important god of the Dead but he was replaced during the Middle Kingdom by Osiris.[4]

And what else brings me to this conclusion? At the 2006 San Diego Comicon, Lindelof and Cuse said that the Egyptian hieroglyphics inside the now-destroyed hatch said "Underworld."

Then we also have new character Amy pulling the necklace off of poor dead Paul, an Egyptian Ankh. Again, to Wikipedia:

The ankh was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "eternal life", a triliteral sign for the consonants &#705;-n-&#7723;. Egyptian gods are often portrayed carrying it by its loop, or bearing one in each hand, arms crossed over their chest. It is also known as the key of life, the key of the Nile, or as crux ansata, Latin for "cross with a handle".

So all of this leads me to believe that I have no frakking idea what's going on, but we're seriously bringing in Egyptian mythology on top of LoTR, CS Lewis, and Alice in Wonderland. They've said again and again that this is no kind of afterlife, and hitting the mainland with the Oceanic Six more or less cemented that as not being a possibility, but is it a gateway of some sort? Is the electromagnetic energy and time/space displacement somehow involved in knocking the island not only out of time and space, but between worlds? I keep thinking the island is in a weird way similar to the veil that Sirius fell through in the fifth Harry Potter book. I also keep thinking that I'm going to have to find some other way to exercise the "insane theories" part of my brain once Galactica ends in three weeks and when Lost ends next year.

God I love this show.


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## Edens_heel (Mar 5, 2009)

http://lost.cubit.net/assets_c/2009/03/5x08_statue-2030.php


He also looks like he is holding Ankhs in each hand... the plot thickens... even more, heh.


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## Edens_heel (Mar 5, 2009)

And one more thing...

WTF happened to Rose and Bernard and the rest!!!!

That's really starting to piss me off. Still awesome, but that's nagging at me.


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## Edens_heel (Mar 5, 2009)

Oh snap! one more thing... in season 3, in one of the Juliet flashback eps, someone mentioned to her that Ben was in love with Juliet because she reminded him of "her." I wonder if the "her" he was referring to was in fact Juliet, and that they will meet when Ben arrives on the island as a little boy. 

Fun with time travel, kiddies.


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## Matt (Mar 8, 2009)

Ashley said:


> TWO WEEKS?!
> 
> Two weeks until the next new episode.
> 
> Torture.



I know, I can't believe they would do this to us.


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## Lavasse (Mar 9, 2009)

Oh you got to be kidding me 2 frigin weeks??? Our local ABC affiliate showed the MN state high school hockey tournament last week so we didn't get to see it here cause I wasn't staying up til 2 or 3 in the morning to watch it. And now you tell me it won't be new for two weeks I HATE YOU ALL LOL


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## Maxx Awesome (Mar 10, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Namely, the statue.
> 
> We only saw it from behind, but I'm going to throw it out that it's Egyptian. The long hair down the back reminded me of Anubis. The bio, courtesy of Wikipedia:
> 
> ...



To add to all this Egyptian imagery, a friend of mine pointed out Richard's eyeliner. Now, I always thought I was just imagining that he was wearing too much make-up until Sawyer referred to "that guy with the eyeliner" this week. It's well-known that Egyptian men used to sport eyeliner, so now I'm even more interested as to what exactly Richard's story is...


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## Still a Skye fan (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm already anxious to see the next episode!

Dennis


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## D_A_Bunny (Mar 11, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> Oh you got to be kidding me 2 frigin weeks??? Our local ABC affiliate showed the MN state high school hockey tournament last week so we didn't get to see it here cause I wasn't staying up til 2 or 3 in the morning to watch it. And now you tell me it won't be new for two weeks I HATE YOU ALL LOL



They are repeating last week's episode tonite in their time slot.


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## Lavasse (Mar 11, 2009)

I see that Im watching it now lol


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## Lavasse (Mar 18, 2009)

I can't wait for tonight Im so excited!!!!!!!


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## Blackjack (Mar 18, 2009)

Did you hear the numbers coming in over the plane's radio when they were trying to call a mayday?


Okay, real questions: Why isn't Sun gone with the others? And how is it that the plane's passengers are rifling through (apparently) abandoned Dharma offices, and yet the numbers are playing (which means it would have to be before 1988, judging by Rousseau's 16 years on the island as of Season One)... but, on the other hand, there's a runway present, which is what was supposedly being built in Season Three.

I have to say, though, that although I couldn't care much less about the KatexSawyer thing, the reunion was pretty damn touching.


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## Lavasse (Mar 18, 2009)

I think the plane landed in the Present/Future and the others time flashes into the past. Kate looks cute in that outfit lol, Jack looks kinda like a big dork though.


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## Blackjack (Mar 18, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> I think the plane landed in the Present/Future and the others time flashes into the past. Kate looks cute in that outfit lol, Jack looks kinda like a big dork though.



That last bit pretty much clinches it, that it's in the present- the "three years later" present.


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## Lavasse (Mar 18, 2009)

Let me guess Locke is going to have to go and turn the Orchid AGAIN since he is alive in the Present in order to get everyone back together.


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## Lavasse (Mar 18, 2009)

And I knew that was Ben when they showed his eyes, those evil lifeless eyes


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## JerseyGirl07093 (Mar 21, 2009)

I just want to know where they so easily find Hurley all these plus size clothes. Was it really that easy to get a XXXL jumpsuit back in 1977? I can't find clothes that easily in 2009!


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## Edens_heel (Mar 21, 2009)

As fantastic as Lost has been this year (and every year), I think the finale of Galactica has raised the bar extremely high... still on a high from that two hours and the seven kinds of ass-kicking it brought with it. I can only hope for something as epic from Lost when it ends next year.


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## marlowegarp (Mar 21, 2009)

I know. Personally I'm hoping for a showdown between the Metal Gear Solid ninja and the Smoke Monster.


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## Matt (Mar 21, 2009)

marlowegarp said:


> I know. Personally I'm hoping for a showdown between the Metal Gear Solid ninja and the Smoke Monster.



That would be awesome!


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## Blackjack (Mar 25, 2009)

For those who're bothered by it (I know I was), Oldham is played by William Sanderson, who played J.R. Sebastian in _Blade Runner_. I knew his face and I knew that I knew him, I just couldn't remember who the hell he was. I hope to see him a bit more in upcoming episodes.

Anyways... I'm not at all impressed by tonight's episode. Feels like a lot of treading water. A lot of this stuff feels pretty necessary, but it's still just a lot of character politics and nothing really all that fascinating about the stuff that, as far as I know, keeps many other fans watching the show- which is, the island. Its mysteries and answers to them (or hints at answers to them).


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## Blackjack (Mar 25, 2009)

TIME PARADOX


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## Lavasse (Mar 25, 2009)

Blackjack said:


> For those who're bothered by it (I know I was), Oldham is played by William Sanderson, who played J.R. Sebastian in _Blade Runner_. I knew his face and I knew that I knew him, I just couldn't remember who the hell he was. I hope to see him a bit more in upcoming episodes.
> 
> Anyways... I'm not at all impressed by tonight's episode. Feels like a lot of treading water. A lot of this stuff feels pretty necessary, but it's still just a lot of character politics and nothing really all that fascinating about the stuff that, as far as I know, keeps many other fans watching the show- which is, the island. Its mysteries and answers to them (or hints at answers to them).



Wasn't he also Larry on Newhart?

AND OMG HE KILLED BEN!!!!!!! POINT FOR SAYID!!!!


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## OneWickedAngel (Mar 25, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> Wasn't he also Larry on Newhart?
> 
> AND OMG HE KILLED BEN!!!!!!! POINT FOR SAYID!!!!



Yes Sanderson played Larry on _Newhart_. I thought so when I saw him. knew it for sure the moment he spoke.

I agree with BlackJack, other than the surprise of Sayid assassinating boy Ben, this really was a bor-ing episode. Best lines:

Sayid: Who is this man.
Sawyer/LeFluer: He's our _you_. 

I want to know (_IF_ boy Ben is really dead), what the heck happens to modern day big-bad Ben in light of this. The explanation for this better be DAMN GOOD!


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## JerseyGirl07093 (Mar 26, 2009)

YEEEESSSSSS! Sayid shot Ben! Now let's see if the island let's him stay dead. :doh:

It was so sad when Sayid was crying after he shot him. Poor Sayid, come rest upon my busom and I'll make it all better. :wubu:


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## OneWickedAngel (Mar 26, 2009)

JerseyGirl07093 said:


> ...snip...
> 
> It was so sad when Sayid was crying after he shot him. Poor Sayid, come rest upon my busom and I'll make it all better. :wubu:




HAHAHAHAHAHA! Stand in line Sister!


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## Matt (Mar 27, 2009)

You can see why Ben becomes a psychopath, what with his father beating him up and treating him like crap. I'm glad Sayid shot him though. Will the modern day Ben just disappear now?


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## marlowegarp (Mar 27, 2009)

Matt said:


> You can see why Ben becomes a psychopath, what with his father beating him up and treating him like crap. I'm glad Sayid shot him though. Will the modern day Ben just disappear now?



Well if Ben would've just brought him a damn sandwich...

The whole episode I was mentally yelling at Sayid to kill Ben. This marks the first time in 5 seasons a Lost character has done exactly what I've wanted them to without waiting 3 seasons to do it.


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## OneWickedAngel (Mar 27, 2009)

Matt said:


> You can see why Ben becomes a psychopath, what with his father beating him up and treating him like crap. I'm glad Sayid shot him though. Will the modern day Ben just disappear now?





marlowegarp said:


> Well if Ben would've just brought him a damn sandwich...
> 
> The whole episode I was mentally yelling at Sayid to kill Ben. This marks the first time in 5 seasons a Lost character has done exactly what I've wanted them to without waiting 3 seasons to do it.



I'm telling ya as much as we want it (and man it's almost criminal how bad we do want it) Boy-Ben is not dead!:
I'm not sure even LOST wants to mess with Time that bad with only a season and a half left to solve mysteries and that would be a doozy!

Come on! An adult killing a child in cold blood? In prime time TV nonetheless? The censors would have jobbied buckets! I'm guessing Doc Jack is somehow about to come out of his forced retirement
And speaking of other mysteries to solve (in no specific order):


 Where are the other survivors who stayed behind like Rose and Bernard?
 Does Desmond ever make a reappearance? If yes, in which time line will he show up?
 Is Libby being in the mental hospital ever going to be explained (I know, I know who cares)?
 Who are/were Adam & Eve and what's up with the black & white stones?
 Who, oh please tell us who Jacked-up Ben before he boarded the plane!
 Hell, is Christian's existence ever going to be explained?
 And where in the meatballs and spaghetti is Daniel Faraday?


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## Matt (Mar 28, 2009)

I pulled this from an article about Benjamin Linus on ign.com. They also think Ben will survive.
_
"First we need to discuss something that will likely be addressed in next week's episode: Did Sayid kill young Ben? Our guess is no, mainly because Daniel Faraday said that you can't make changes to the past even if you tried. So Sayid going back in time and killing Ben can't stick. So we think Ben is saved, either by the island or by people. It could be like Michael off the island, where even when he tried to kill himself, he couldn't, because the island wasn't done with him yet. Or it could simply be a matter of a DHARMA doctor, or one of the Hostiles, coming to young Ben's rescue."_


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## James (Mar 28, 2009)

Matt said:


> I pulled this from an article about Benjamin Linus on ign.com. They also think Ben will survive.
> _
> "First we need to discuss something that will likely be addressed in next week's episode: Did Sayid kill young Ben? Our guess is no, mainly because Daniel Faraday said that you can't make changes to the past even if you tried. So Sayid going back in time and killing Ben can't stick. So we think Ben is saved, either by the island or by people. It could be like Michael off the island, where even when he tried to kill himself, he couldn't, because the island wasn't done with him yet. Or it could simply be a matter of a DHARMA doctor, or one of the Hostiles, coming to young Ben's rescue."_



except... I figure that the past _has _been changed.... didnt the hostiles/others take over the reception area near the sub? I'm pretty sure they did... so why was the 2007 (?) reception area still sporting dharma signs and photographs... perhaps the purge didn't happen... perhaps the losties alter it somehow?


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## marlowegarp (Mar 30, 2009)

James said:


> except... I figure that the past _has _been changed.... didnt the hostiles/others take over the reception area near the sub? I'm pretty sure they did... so why was the 2007 (?) reception area still sporting dharma signs and photographs... perhaps the purge didn't happen... perhaps the losties alter it somehow?



Indeed. If the photographs had always been there you would think that, when the time for list-making came back in Season 1, the Others would have put Hurley's name pretty close to the top, as befitting of someone who looks the same after 30 years. 

Speaking of which, was the fate of the abductees ever revealed?


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## out.of.habit (Apr 1, 2009)

Are you reaaady?


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## Blackjack (Apr 1, 2009)

Bah, they revealed too much too early about what Kate had to do for Sawyer.


----------



## out.of.habit (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes they did. They'd better throw some sort of twist in there. Maybe they were getting the drama out of the way to make room for the wtf.


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## out.of.habit (Apr 1, 2009)

Jack's such a control freak. Psh, surgeons.


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## Blackjack (Apr 1, 2009)

out.of.habit said:


> Maybe they were getting the drama out of the way to make room for the wtf.



That seems to be a trend recently. The necessary drama is getting dealt with- the stuff filling in the blanks. I mean, it is all pretty necessary, but it's kind of droll.

Although the stuff with Ben's father is putting him into a new light that's way more sympathetic than how he's been shown before. He's not redeemed, but at least it shows that he knows that he's a fuck-up and regrets it.

I'm loving the discussion about time travel that Hurley and Miles are having, though... it's hilarious. Although Miles' explanation would probably be a _lot_ clearer with an illustration.


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## Lavasse (Apr 1, 2009)

When he pulled the gun out I figured he was gonna whack Hurley upside the head with it.


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## Edens_heel (Apr 2, 2009)

I think the Miles/Hurley convo was one of the highlights of the entire series - that, and that Back to the Future references. Fan-damn-tastic.


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## OneWickedAngel (Apr 2, 2009)

Lavasse said:


> When he pulled the gun out I figured he was gonna whack Hurley upside the head with it.



I know - LOL! Actually, I think Miles was (semi-jokingly) hoping Hurley really would shoot him just so he could get out of the convo. 



Edens_heel said:


> I think the Miles/Hurley convo was one of the highlights of the entire series - that, and that Back to the Future references. Fan-damn-tastic.



I love the expression on Hurley's face when he finally stumps Miles; as if to say "So who's the dummy now - huh?" 

By man! Even with the "what's happening has already happened and you can't change it" knowledge, it has got to weigh on Sawyer's and Kate's head that they are somewhat responsible for the monster that is going to become Benjamin Linus. And gee why were we not at all surprised Alpert recognized Boy-Ben? 

If Boy-Ben is being mind-wiped, this puts a little dent in the _he (Bad-Ben) knows the Losties so well because he grew up with them_ theory. 

So if Ben is back to be judged (as Mr. Eko was judged), is it safe to presume the return of Ol' Smoky is imminent?


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## pjbbwlvr (Apr 2, 2009)

All, I agree I loved the interaction between Miles and Hurley! And when Hurley stumped Miles about how come Ben didn't remember Sayid was priceless!
I love LOST I wish the show would never end. The other thing I wish is that Horace would get a haircut, LOL!!!






OneWickedAngel said:


> I know - LOL! Actually, I think Miles was (semi-jokingly) hoping Hurley really would shoot him just so he could get out of the convo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Edens_heel (Apr 2, 2009)

OneWickedAngel said:


> And gee why were we not at all surprised Alpert recognized Boy-Ben?



I don't think it's actually anything more than Alpert and Ben had already met - in the season 3 episode near the end, the first one that gives us flashbacks into Ben's past. Alpert's got longer hair and they meet one another, and Ben wants to go with him then.

And not only is old smokey imminent (I think) but next week it looks as if we finally explore the temple and figure out what happened to cause Ben's pre-flight beating (I'm putting my bets on it having to do with Penny and Desmond... and if they kill either of them I will be severely pissed).


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## justeenthegreat (Apr 2, 2009)

Last night's eposide was amazing. All I have to say is, there is a serious lack of Faraday. NEEDS MOAR FARADAY.


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## out.of.habit (Apr 2, 2009)

justeenthegreat said:


> Last night's eposide was amazing. All I have to say is, there is a serious lack of Faraday. NEEDS MOAR FARADAY.



Hi! You're awesome for posting that picture with massive amounts of WIN! Welcome to Dims, by the way.


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## justeenthegreat (Apr 2, 2009)

Thank you. Haha I love that picture, the sad part it is that the tiara wasnt photoshopped. =/


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## out.of.habit (Apr 2, 2009)

justeenthegreat said:


> Thank you. Haha I love that picture, the sad part it is that the tiara wasnt photoshopped. =/



Well, he is very pretty in his rhinestones.


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## marlowegarp (Apr 3, 2009)

My room mate and I were joking that when time travel is finally perfected, no one will kill Hitler because everyone will think he is cute as a kid. This episode made me hate Kate even more than I already did, with her simpering little smile...grrrgh! Richard is looking right at her and saying that Ben is going to become a monster and she's still all "DRRRR...I don't care! I need to be a mommy! I was played out in season two." 

The Miles/Hurley conversation was quite cool however. I really hope we get an origin episode for Miles. 

"DRRRR..." - Kate.


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## Blackjack (Apr 8, 2009)

Well, that answers that. For some reason I'm not horribly surprised by the who, but it was a bit unexpected regarding the what.


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## out.of.habit (Apr 9, 2009)

Welcome home WTF!


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## Edens_heel (Apr 9, 2009)

Anyone else feel that despite the holes in the plot this ep filled in, overall it was a pretty epic letdown? Not that I need a whole hell of a lot of action to be satisfied, but this is getting too slow... and I don't think that has ever been said about a smokey episode.


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## OneWickedAngel (Apr 9, 2009)

I wouldn't say total let down, as most of us were hoping it was Desmond who kicked Ben's tail and we got to see that come to fruition. Yes, for a Smokey episode it was disappointing, but let's admit it, in our TV blood lust we were not-so-secretly hoping Smokey would toss Ben around like a rag doll the way it had when judging Mr. Eko. Anything short of that was not going to satisfy us and it didn't. 

Besides, who else is going to be antagonist to Locke in his time line? Lapidis (once he wakes up) has the power coupe with the former Bounty Hunter aka Ms. I've Got Guns Now I'm Head Bitch In Charge to deal with. That Lost 70s Gang has to sort out getting out of Dodge and hopefully back to their own time before Boy-Ben grows-up and starts "The Purge". Sun and Jin caught amongst both time lines have only one mission - to find each other. So I repeat - who else is left for Locke? In spite of the Smokey cum Alex threat we all know good and well Ben is not going to just idly follow Locke.


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## Blackjack (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm really diggin' this episode. I've always liked Miles, and this is getting pretty interesting- especially seeing so much of his backstory. And the whole thing about Miles and Dr. Chang, while not unforseen, is rather unique and the conversation just now with them and Hurley in the van was great.

Oh, and the numbers coming back into play in a manner that doesn't feel like just background is just sweet.


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## OneWickedAngel (Apr 15, 2009)

Finally! We get to see the Miles episode and it was not a disappointment. Leave it to Hurley to once again be ridiculous and yet so profound. It was almost heartbreaking when Chang called out to Miles "I need you" and Miles looked so damn hopeful until he realized it was just a another driver run.

And yes, just when we all but forgot about them - they're baaaack! The numbers! I agree that was a very cool way of slipping them back in to our consciousness like that. 

Last and certainly not least - don't you love how Faraday just ever so nonchalantly re-enters the picture. Yo Miles what's happening? Let's go by Dharma-bucks, grab a couple of cups of Dharma-chinos and catch up. Whaddaya say? LOL! That sounds so Sawyer -er, I mean- Le Fleurish. 

You know the season ender is coming soon when they start pulling out the "special episodes". There's only what? Two-three original episodes left this season? I know we still have an entire season to go, but I'm half excited and half melancholy. Everything is slowly starting to come full circle.


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## Edens_heel (Apr 16, 2009)

The bragger in me would totally like to say that I called it - way back at the beginning of this thread I thought that Miles might have been the baby in Chang's arms in the first few minutes of the season opener. I don't often guess right with Lost so that was a highlight of the ep for me.

According to Aint it Cool News, the final couple of eps focus on Faraday in two weeks, Alpert the week after that, and then, for the finale, which is titled "The Incident" (Which I'm guessing refers to the incident that was mentioned as being the reason the button in the hatch needed to be pressed every 108 minutes), supposedly the focus is...



... Jacob.



About frakking time!


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## Edens_heel (Apr 16, 2009)

Also, starting to get both intrigued and worried about this new faction that keeps referencing the line "standing in the shadow of the statue" (or something to that effect). Worried mainly because there are so many different sides now that, with only one season left, they might be biting off a little too much (though I do have faith in the end).


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## pjbbwlvr (Apr 16, 2009)

I love LOST and last nights episode was just as good!! I'm just curious as to who abducted and then let go of Miles. I don't think it was Ben's people I think there is a thrid party and that it may be the DHARMA people? Maybe they are the ones who staged the fake plane crash and are trying to get the island back? Also the fact they offered to let Miles in on his father seemed to be someone other than Bens goons! 
Your thoughts?


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## OneWickedAngel (Apr 16, 2009)

Hmmmm... nice catch PJ! 

We know Naomi works/ed for Whidmore. In the LOST world that by no means concludes the body she presented to Miles was one of their own. She had to already know the answers in order to test Miles with the questions. This does give note that Whidmore has somehow managed to keep abreast of what was happening on the island after his dismissal. After all how would he (Whidmore) know about the Purge in order to know there are dead bodies for Miles to ask questions of? Can you say What-Day-Is-Today-Faraday?

I have wondered myself what the heck happened with the off-Island Dharma people. Someone had to ask questions when a whole village just upped and vanished and Ben's crew took over. The van guy only indicated that they were the side that was going to win. By the way did anyone notice that Van Guy is the guy currently on the island locking-loading and taking orders from Rifle-Toting-I-Am-The-New-Head-Bitch-In-Charge Alana? And speaking of the former Bounty Hunter... Where oh where has our Sayid gone - where oh where can he be? 

Now - wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if the ever-time-traveling Danny-Boy is a double agent and the linch pin to the whole she-bang?


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## pjbbwlvr (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Raivenne, I'm thinking Dharma people nabbed him. Also notice how Horace always mentions "Ann Arbor" which I assume is the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. 
What happened to those eggheads that stayed in the states especially after Ben poisoned all of the Dharma people what did the US based people do? They still sent food, if you remember that in one of the seasons Dharma was still dropping food on the Island after many years later.

Good call on the Van guy, I'll have to look at my old TiVo Episodes to find him though, LOL! And of course Sayid, my favorite Lost person, what has happened to him. Well we have to wait 2 weeks after next weeks recap. Which I will watch anyway because I need my weekly lost fix. And they made their 100th episode of Lost, just think we have watched over 100 hours, not including re-runs and re-caps, of this show! 

Amazing!


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## Edens_heel (Apr 30, 2009)

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

He better not be dead, dammit!

Also, love the convenient "fuel" canisters. Classic.


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## Emma (Apr 30, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn
> 
> He better not be dead, dammit!
> 
> Also, love the convenient "fuel" canisters. Classic.



I so bet he is!


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## pjbbwlvr (May 1, 2009)

Daniel may be Dead in the 70's but will be alive in other years and episodes, LOL! Who would ever think Daniel was the love child of Eloise Hawking and Charles Widmore. At least now we know how his Momma got his journal that she gave back to him when he graduated! This is one cold Momma!!






Edens_heel said:


> Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn
> 
> He better not be dead, dammit!
> 
> Also, love the convenient "fuel" canisters. Classic.


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## Spanky (May 1, 2009)

I was wondering if while Daniel was trying to keep a specific order of events (of which we are aware) moving in some direction (actually, he knew the causation sequences and wanted to try and stop them), his mother, in her longer life, knew that she had to send him specifically to that point in time on the island so that SHE would be able to kill him then and stop some greater event. Or keep it going, for example that he would NOT change the LOST events we know so well. 




<gad :doh:, and I am typing this sober>


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## Matt (May 6, 2009)

I'm pretty sure he's dead, when they kill off a character, all the flashbacks in the episode are usually about that character.


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## Matt (May 7, 2009)

I'd almost forgotten what Locke looked like before tonight's episode. Can't wait for the finale now.


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## Matt (May 7, 2009)

Oops, double post.


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## justeenthegreat (May 8, 2009)

I am so pumped for next week.

Still am very upset that Faraday is dead. He was one of my fave new characters.


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## justeenthegreat (May 8, 2009)

I know and it seemed as though it pissed Ben off.


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## marlowegarp (May 8, 2009)

I am also super-pumped about next week. Will we get answers about Richard and Jacob? Will Jughead go off? Will Kate will finally die?!


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## pjbbwlvr (May 8, 2009)

Wednesday's episode was great to see Sayid back! He is one of my favorite good bad guys, LOL!!


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## Blackjack (May 13, 2009)

omg... there's just so, so, so much to cover tonight.

And not the least of it being the actual confrontation with Jacob and the symbolism therein, which strikes me as being very, very similar in events and meaning to a sequence in _The Hills Have Eyes_ (the original, not the remake).


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## Edens_heel (May 14, 2009)

Amazing ep, but the big question I was struggling with until a few moments ago was the question of the loophole that Jacob's oppressor discovered (There are heavy biblical/eden things going on here...). I think the loophole was with the Locke compass scenario. The evil pretending to be Locke put all of this in motion when he told Richard, with Ben in tow, to help Locke (the real one, as he was skipping through time) and present him with the compass, to give said compass to Richard, which convinces Richard of Locke's purpose in all of this.

But then if that is the loophole, then what was Locke's original purpose? He must have had one, considering that Jacob visited Locke in the real world before the crash.

There's mind-fuckery afoot! And we have to wait until 2010 to get our answers! Frak!


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## Ash (May 14, 2009)

Completely epic episode to end an awesome season. Seriously. My mind is blown. 

*SERIOUS SPOILAGE TO FOLLOW. IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FINALE, STOP READING NOW.*

First, when Richard was asked what lies in the shadow of the statue, he said "Ille qui nos omnes servabit" which I'm told translates to "he who will protect us all". Jacob. Many, many thanks to Sass (also known as jon_w3000) for this info. 

It was very cool to see how Jacob had touched the lives of each of the Losties at one point or another. It was interesting, though, that he came to some of them before they came to the island and others after. At first I thought that maybe he had hand-picked the survivors, but it only showed him coming to Sayid and Hurley after they had already been to the island, so now I'm not as sure. 

(Side note: When Jacob was sitting on the bench and Locke fell to the ground behind him (after being pushed through a window by his father), he was reading Flannery O'Conner's _Everything That Rises Must Converge_. This is a short story available various places online for free, so I read it after I watched the finale. There was no direct significance to the episode that I could see, but there were some interesting themes that could mean something when all is said and done. We all know that nothing is a coincidence on this show, especially since the story is quite short, but the producers cared enough to show us the title of the work that Jacob was reading.)

So, the smoke monster. It manifested itself as Ben's "daughter" and told him he had to do everything Locke told him to. We'd have to assume, then, that the smoke monster is not under Jacob's control, yes? And possibly that it is under the control of whatever spirit is walking around in Locke's body (the guy from the beginning of the episode who swore to kill Jacob one day)? 

Also, who was on the ship that Jacob and the other guy saw at the very beginning?

Another thing: the statue didn't seem to be Anubis, as we previously thought. It's mouth was more like an alligator, almost. Weird. 

I have some theories surrounding Ben and his similarities to a certain biblical character as well, but my mind is going in about a hundred different directions right now, so I'll come back to it later. 

There was so much going on this episode. Anyone have any theories?


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## darthplump (May 14, 2009)

The ship had to be the black rock. Apart from that so much stuff happened. Who the hell is Lock if its not Lock? The same guy/thing that was Christian Shepard I'm guessing, the same guy that was with jacob at the beginning...maybe he's the smoke monster too? No idea. And that ending...could there be a more open ended conclusion. Is the island destroyed? did time fix itself? Was that the "anomaly" that was suppose to happen all along? If it did what they thought it was I have a hunch next season will open up shot for shot just like the first episode of season 3...except maybe nothing happens and the plane lands safely.

Also at the end of the episode, the logo was reversed from how it's been every episode. A large white screen with lost in black letters...instead of vice versa. Thats got to mean...something.


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## pjbbwlvr (May 14, 2009)

Ashley, 
Very good break down, I was trying to figure out just what Richard said! But in the opening scene I think the ship was the BlackRock. Also the complete statue was reveiled and it looked like Anubis which is what the ancient Egyptians have in their tombs. Anubis was the god to protect the dead and bring them to the afterlife. I always felt, and I know it sounds weird, but maybe everyone is already dead??? I just don't know!

So how many more Days, weeks and months till the final season, LOL???
I can't wait to buy this season on DVD, hopefully it will be in BlueRay!




Ashley said:


> Completely epic episode to end an awesome QUOTE]


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## Blackjack (May 14, 2009)

I'm gonna watch the episode again later today once ABC has it up on the site (if they don't already). There's far too much to analyze for one viewing.

First off, I did a bit of searching and found a bit on Sobek, which was a crocodile god of the Egyptians, but it doesn't seem to fit. There's also Ammit, who was a diety representing divine retribution, but the imagery doesn't fit, although the symbolism might.

But wait, what's this? A bit on the jackal god Wepwawet, "the opener of the ways", referring to his role as protective guide of the spirits entering the underworld.

I'm going to do some research today at the library and see if there's anything else I can unearth.


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## Edens_heel (May 14, 2009)

Anyone else think that Richard was on the Black Rock?

Also, the inversion of the title - white background and black letters - makes me think back to the very first conversation Locke had with Walt, about Backgammon: One side is white, the other dark. We have a basic good evil conflict between Jacob and another, who I'm guessing is Esau (look it up kiddies!) And they are manipulating pieces like pawns, perhaps to see who is worthy, and so far Richard is the only one. Honestly, I'm starting to think the island is Eden.

Soooo epic.


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## darthplump (May 14, 2009)

Good vs Evil has been a theme for the length of the series. I think this might signify that with the death of Jacob the roles might have been reversed or something. Not sure.

Also, Sobek is the son of the godess Neith.

Wiki says she was also known as the goddess of weaving

As the goddess of creation and weaving, she was said to reweave the world on her loom daily.

Jacob also was weaving a tapestry on a loom at the beginning, and at the end he said, referring to the tapestryDo you like it, I made it myself, it takes a very long time when your making the thread, but i guess thats the point

that might be something, it might not.


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## Blackjack (May 14, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> We have a basic good evil conflict between Jacob and another, who I'm guessing is Esau (look it up kiddies!)



Damn you... I was just about to bring that up. It's one of the things I found today while I was at the library.

There's also a bit about Jacob being the father to a Benjamin, whose mother died in childbirth.


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## marlowegarp (May 14, 2009)

I agree with the Esau theory as well. My friend and I were discussing this episode and are wondering:

Does this mean that the manifestations of Locke/Sawyer's and Jack/Claire's fathers on the island have all been this "Esau"?

By "they" to they mean the giants depicted in the statue, or some kind of elder gods? (Jack Kirby's Celestials come to mind)

ALSO
I think the ship in the beginning DID bring Richard to the island. 

ALSO
The Dharma Initiative still have no damn reason for bringing polar bears to the island. 

ALSO
The crash of 815 being prevented obviously means a lot more than Jack and Kate being together/not being together. Didn't more than half of the passengers die? Isn't it obvious that almost everyone would be better off/still alive if the plane had just not crashed?


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## Edens_heel (May 14, 2009)

And another thing, was that Esau that was asking for Locke's help in the mysterious cabin? Did breaking the line of black sand release him? Does anyone remember if the sand was broken BEFORE Ben took Locke to the cabin for the first time? Or did that happen after? Because if it was before, then I'm guessing that we have just been given the explanation to the visions of Christian, Horace, Walt, Yemi, etc.

There's a part of me that wishes they were staying within the scientific, but only because Galactica finished on such a religious note (not a bad thing, just don't want too much of a literal hand of god playing with things... it becomes too easy an out).

I'm still grappling with the two Lockes, though, and how one, obviously Esau in disguise, planted all these seeds in motion throughout time by having Richard tell Locke that he had to die. Why did he have to die? If Esau needed just a body, did he not have that already with Christian? Considering Jacob went to Locke in real life, there's obviously a great deal of significance to him. And being brought back from paralysis might have cemented his status as a chosen one, a leader of sorts. So does that mean that Locke has been the "checkmate" piece in this for both Esau and Jacob? His presense is almost of a christ-like significance, but a christ controlled by either one or the other - a devil or an angel.

So then the remaining big questions I want answered right-the-frak NOW, are:

What will the detonation of the hydrogen bomb at the Swan accomplish or destroy?

What is the end game in all of this between Esau (if that is who he is) and Jacob?

What will become of the parallel concept of the Variable and the Constant? They've hyped the shit out of that far too much for it to be a red herring (which, funnily enough, was what Jacob was eating at the very beginning)

What truly is Richard's role in this? He cannot simply be a messenger, not after all that has happened and been revealed. I'm guessing next season will give us the Black Rock story, which will tie into the island's origins and the destruction of the statue.

What is the true purpose of the Others and how did they come to know the island?

What is the purpose of the lists?

And last but not least, what is Smokey? I'm thinking more and more that it is directly tied to Esau, but not sure how, considering that it has been in the service of the Others, to a degree (Ben calling it in season 4 to take out Keamy's men).

More perhaps later, but fire away with thoughts and ruminations - we've got a loooong wait ahead of us to finally get our answers.


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## Edens_heel (May 15, 2009)

Here's a question for the masses:

Did we actually get THE big reveal last night? Is this Paradise LOST?

Jacob and Esau, the warring angels, and the humans forsaking Eden? That doesn't explain the heavy Egyptian mythology angle they're colouring in the lines with, but it might be a start. It could be an amalgamation of numerous myths at this point...

And one more thing, because I obviously need a life apart from this damn program:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek

Notice the Anks and the croc-like head, which we definitely saw from the side.


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## Blackjack (May 15, 2009)

_Everything That Rises Must Converge_ at Wikipedia. It's not just a single story but a collection of several. I might check it out at the library tomorrow if they have it.


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## Maxx Awesome (May 18, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> What will the detonation of the hydrogen bomb at the Swan accomplish or destroy?


The show in general & this series in particular has focussed so much on the idea of destiny that I honestly think it'd be a huge cop-out to have the bomb destroying the enrgy field underneath The Swan. Part of me hopes that that will prove to be the "incident" that Dr. Chang was talking about on those old Dharma film-strips they found.



Edens_heel said:


> What truly is Richard's role in this? He cannot simply be a messenger, not after all that has happened and been revealed. I'm guessing next season will give us the Black Rock story, which will tie into the island's origins and the destruction of the statue.


As a friend of mine pointed out (& I said somewhere within this thread), I think Richard may also have an ancient Egyptian connection. We based this on nothing but the fact that Sawyer/LeFleur started harping on about Richard's eyeliner, but it's something. 



Edens_heel said:


> And last but not least, what is Smokey? I'm thinking more and more that it is directly tied to Esau, but not sure how, considering that it has been in the service of the Others, to a degree (Ben calling it in season 4 to take out Keamy's men).


Maybe when Esau was trapped in the cabin he was unable to control it & it took him some time to actually track it down again & make it assume the form of Alex(?). Of course, I'm merely guessing now.

Also of note, it seems like ancient history now, back in Season 3 after Mr. Ecko had been killed by the smoke monster, Locke asked him "What did you see?" Ecko responded "A Black Cloud" (I'm paraphrasing here, obviously). Ecko then asked Locke "What did you see?", John's response, "The exact opposite." Could Jacob then have his own "good version" of the smoke monster?


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## pjbbwlvr (May 19, 2009)

The man speaking to Jacob in the opening scene of this last episode was wearing black. Could he be the black smoke monster and when he was offered some food by Jacob he answered he already eaten. Could that have meant that he, as the black smoke monster, just killed someone?

Someone please freeze me and wake me when lost resumes, LOL! I cannot stand the suspense!!

Paul





Maxx Awesome said:


> The show in general & this series in particular has focussed so much on the idea of destiny that I honestly think it'd be a huge cop-out to have the bomb destroying the enrgy field underneath The Swan. Part of me hopes that that will prove to be the "incident" that Dr. Chang was talking about on those old Dharma film-strips they found.
> 
> 
> As a friend of mine pointed out (& I said somewhere within this thread), I think Richard may also have an ancient Egyptian connection. We based this on nothing but the fact that Sawyer/LeFleur started harping on about Richard's eyeliner, but it's something.
> ...


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## Maxx Awesome (May 19, 2009)

pjbbwlvr said:


> The man speaking to Jacob in the opening scene of this last episode was wearing black. Could he be the black smoke monster and when he was offered some food by Jacob he answered he already eaten. Could that have meant that he, as the black smoke monster, just killed someone?
> 
> Someone please freeze me and wake me when lost resumes, LOL! I cannot stand the suspense!!
> 
> Paul



I'm not sure that he is the smoke monster necessarily. Just that he might be connected to it in some manner. Ben stated previously that the monster is a "security device", perhaps something installed by this other individual (who I'll just refer to as Esau for convenience).

And, assuming it was actually Esau posing as Christian all along, I wonder now what became of Claire? Last we heard she was "with" Christian/Esau. Since we never really saw her die, I'm assuming she must still be alive somewhere on the island.


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