# Unanticipated Expenses of Major Weight loss



## bigmac (Mar 9, 2014)

Many people have posted about their difficulties getting insurance to pay for WLS. However, there hasn't been that much chatter about what happens after major weight loss (via WLS or otherwise). There was a post about how the body you're left with can be disappointing. Which brings me to the point of this post.

Cosmetic surgery after massive weight loss has become an active area of concentration for plastic surgeons. I goggled the topic and here are the images (warning graphic): www.google.com/search?q=plastic+sur...nms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ofIcU9azDYLooASJ24BA&ved

As can be seen the results of weight loss are not what a lot of people expect. The results can of course be improved by plastic surgery. However, even the best insurance plans only cover the basic reconstructive surgery. Panniculectomies are sometimes covered by insurance. http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/patient/adult_procedures/panniculectomy/

However, many patients require full body lifts, breast, reconstruction, arm reductions, and thigh lifts to regain a semblance of a normal body. Here's a video of a full body lift -- its major major surgery -- and of course very expensive (warning graphic). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x2I2sEj9ac

The purveyors of WLS seldom inform their patients that they will need to fork out tens of thousands of dollars for reconstructive surgery down the road. When down the road arrives people who have lost lots of weight will discover that their insurance company deems the lowest fold of their hanging tummy the only medical issue -- everything else will be considered cosmetic. Insurance will chip in a few thousand dollars and leave the patient responsible for the rest.

A full body lift costs 15-25K, breast reconstruction (not just implants) costs 8-12K, arm reduction costs 7-9K ... 

So, unless they have a truly great insurance company or really extreme and unusual health issues, people who loose major amounts of weight are going to need to find a extra 40K or more to complete their transformation. Of course for a lot of people this will not be financially possible.

(Note: I'm posting this on the main board since the above also applies to people who lose weight through means other than WLS and because the focus in on the economics of weight loss not medical issues.)


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## Yakatori (Mar 9, 2014)

Always with the positivity, you...unbridled optimism.


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## superodalisque (Mar 9, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Many people have posted about their difficulties getting insurance to pay for WLS. However, there hasn't been that much chatter about what happens after major weight loss (via WLS or otherwise). There was a post about how the body you're left with can be disappointing. Which brings me to the point of this post.
> 
> Cosmetic surgery after massive weight loss has become an active area of concentration for plastic surgeons. I goggled the topic and here are the images (warning graphic): www.google.com/search?q=plastic+sur...nms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ofIcU9azDYLooASJ24BA&ved
> 
> ...



actually i know from having worked in healthcare insurance that at least the plastic surgery for extra skin and breast work is often covered. many insurance companies are of the opinion that the body that women in particular are left with might inhibit them from what they consider to be life saving or healthcare cost reductive weight loss. they often do cover many of these items as an incentive and there are also special programs depending on the state or even the hospital system. 

from the discussions i've heard around Obamacare there is a serious contingent of plastic surgeons lobbying for after care to be bundled with the actual procedure to simplify the plan. so in totality weight loss surgery aftercare is not going to be anywhere near as cost prohibitive as it has been in the past. that is why it's time the community stop relying on the idea that people are trapped into either being fat or droopy afterward so much. it's time for a true celebration and respect, otherwise there is going to be a tremendous increase in fat people who are going to opt out altogether--which we are already seeing.


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## PolkaDotty (Mar 9, 2014)

First thought: so? 

For most people considering WLS, the aim isn't to have a pretty or even 'normal' body - it's to stay alive, and have a future. Generally, WLS patients are out of other options to save their own lives. Costly cosmetic procedures are secondary considerations to job one: not dying. Most are very aware that life after WLS won't be pretty, easy or cheap.


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## Tracyarts (Mar 9, 2014)

It is a consideration. 

I didn't see any real changes in my body until I passed 100 pounds lost. (I have not had WLS, I have lost the weight with major long-term diet and physical activity changes). I've got a foot-long scar down the center of my belly from surgery several years ago and the skin is a little puckery and pulled in around the bottom half of it. It doesn't bother me though. But if I lose enough more weight that it does become an issue, I'll have my belly apron surgery and be good with the results. The way I look at it, is that when I went into surgery I was told that being a supersized person, a very large belly incision could result in major wound issues. I was prepared for the worse and made peace with that possibility. My upper arms bother me a bit because they did not shrink symmetrically, and the right is significantly larger than the left. It's a pain in the ass when it comes to clothing fit sometimes because of sleeves. But the only way I'd get them fixed would be if I were to lose a lot more weight and the size difference became even more extreme. As it stands now, it's an annoyance, but not a big enough annoyance to justify the pain and expense of surgery.

I think also the way you see your changed body also depends on why you lost weight to begin with. For me, it was a matter of functionality and health. I really don't give a rat's ass about having a tight body. I'm willing to overlook a LOT of imperfections in the mirror in order to have better mobility, improved health, increased independence, and a more satisfying quality of life. I can totally live with what I have now. It's actually not that bad. It would take a much more significant change in my body before I considered reconstructive surgery. It's just not that high of a priority for me. I have no intentions of getting thin, or even close enough to thin that a full-body reconstruction in order to remove massive sheets of hanging wrinkled skin would be a necessity. 

But if it ever does come down to that, I'd find the best surgeon I could afford and see what they could do for me. Money wouldn't be a deal-breaker. I'd have to stop being a housewife for a while and save every penny, and probably dip into my inheritance some. But I've also got phenomenal health insurance and they'd cover part of it for sure. I'd be more deterred by the pain and potential risks than the cost. 

But like I said, that would be a LOT of pounds away and I'm not even intending to go there. 

Tracy


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## superodalisque (Mar 9, 2014)

PolkaDotty said:


> First thought: so?
> 
> For most people considering WLS, the aim isn't to have a pretty or even 'normal' body - it's to stay alive, and have a future. Generally, WLS patients are out of other options to save their own lives. Costly cosmetic procedures are secondary considerations to job one: not dying. Most are very aware that life after WLS won't be pretty, easy or cheap.



i agree. all of my friends who've had it have been at deaths door basically.the last thing on their mind was what they'd look like after. they were just trying to live. another reason we need more respect surrounding the discussion of the weight it's possible for each individual person to carry and making it okay for them to take steps to remain strong instead of punishing shunning and/or shaming people for the kind of talk that results in the ability for them to stay strong and fat and never get into a situation where they ever have to consider WLS. but that won't happen if the freak out doesn't stop over health talk. weird to think that individual health isn't as legitimate of a concern for fat people as it is for anyone else.


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## bigmac (Mar 10, 2014)

Yakatori said:


> Always with the positivity, you...unbridled optimism.



Like I've said -- I try to remain positive. That doesn't mean I ignore reality.

Also, very recently, I wrote a local plastic surgeon a check for over thirteen thousand dollars. I wouldn't have done that if I didn't have positive expectations.


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## bigmac (Mar 10, 2014)

PolkaDotty said:


> First thought: so?
> 
> For most people considering WLS, the aim isn't to have a pretty or even 'normal' body - it's to stay alive, and have a future. Generally, WLS patients are out of other options to save their own lives. *Costly cosmetic procedures are secondary considerations to job one*: not dying. Most are very aware that life after WLS won't be pretty, easy or cheap.




Actually social and cosmetic considerations factor very highly in many peoples decisions. This is particularly true for younger people. Every single friend who's had WLS did so with the anticipation that their romantic capital would increase (i.e. that they'd be able to get more action). 

While cosmetic considerations may be secondary for WLS patients who are on deaths door it must be remembered that such patients are a very small minority of the total WLS population. The vast majority of people who've had WLS (or who lost weight by other means) were not at deaths door -- indeed most were currently healthy. For these typical WLS patients cosmetic issues were and are very important (most important for many).


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## loopytheone (Mar 10, 2014)

I think this is a very interesting topic actually. It seems that most people on here have enough money available that they could afford to do it if they wanted. But say I wanted WLS (I have known people my size, 180lbs, have it done as mad as that is) and it was deemed necessary by the NHS for my health I would get the operation for free and absolutely nothing else. So over here in the UK at least the money really is a big issue because people who are on the breadline can have the surgery and lose large amounts of weight without being able to just generate extra income like that for the following surgeries. 

That said, my _personal_ opinion is that WLS should be for medical reasons only. Being fat is not, in itself, a medical issue in my opinion. I also think that doctors should take more time to fully explain the procedure, the outcomes and the potential risks to patients. I happened to research WLS in quite some depth for a project when I was at university at approximately 30% of people who had WLS ended up needed further corrective surgery on their organs due to things like bands slipping and leakage around the wound sight and such. Now before anybody jumps in and says that they know x amount of people who have had WLS and not had anything bad happen these are finding from medical practices themselves and from long term reviews of WLS success so I would say they were accurate. 

I also think that if somebody is smaller and generally healthy and well but still wants WLS they should be made to have counselling and psychological help for a number of months before they are allowed to have the procedure. Simply because if you are so concerned by you appearance alone that you want to have somebody open you up and cut out chunks of your organs you are not psychologically healthy and these are the people who will be left upset by the loose skin left over instead of a tiny, tight body. 

That said, I know that WLS can be a big help for some people in terms of their help and if that is the only thing that will help them and that is what they want then I support that. I just think that the way WLS is handled by doctors in terms of patient care and information is poor at the moment.


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## superodalisque (Mar 10, 2014)

loopytheone said:


> I think this is a very interesting topic actually. It seems that most people on here have enough money available that they could afford to do it if they wanted. But say I wanted WLS (I have known people my size, 180lbs, have it done as mad as that is) and it was deemed necessary by the NHS for my health I would get the operation for free and absolutely nothing else. So over here in the UK at least the money really is a big issue because people who are on the breadline can have the surgery and lose large amounts of weight without being able to just generate extra income like that for the following surgeries.
> 
> That said, my _personal_ opinion is that WLS should be for medical reasons only. Being fat is not, in itself, a medical issue in my opinion. I also think that doctors should take more time to fully explain the procedure, the outcomes and the potential risks to patients. I happened to research WLS in quite some depth for a project when I was at university at approximately 30% of people who had WLS ended up needed further corrective surgery on their organs due to things like bands slipping and leakage around the wound sight and such. Now before anybody jumps in and says that they know x amount of people who have had WLS and not had anything bad happen these are finding from medical practices themselves and from long term reviews of WLS success so I would say they were accurate.
> 
> ...



while I agree with you it's not my choice to tell other people what weight to be. we can only explore both sides of things. it might be emotional health for some people that's in question. to me when others choose to be thin it has nothing to do with my own self worth or that of other fat people. I think it's time for the fat community to stop investing so much in keeping people from doing things and create more good reasons why they shouldn't--like more celebratory attitudes and mind/society changing activities. we've started looking a lot like the fat hate mongers on the other side.


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## bigmac (Mar 10, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> actually i know from having worked in healthcare insurance that at least the plastic surgery for extra skin and breast work is often covered. many insurance companies are of the opinion that the body that women in particular are left with might inhibit them from what they consider to be life saving or healthcare cost reductive weight loss. they often do cover many of these items as an incentive and there are also special programs depending on the state or even the hospital system.
> 
> from the discussions i've heard around Obamacare there is a serious contingent of plastic surgeons lobbying for after care to be bundled with the actual procedure to simplify the plan. so in totality weight loss surgery aftercare is not going to be anywhere near as cost prohibitive as it has been in the past. that is why it's time the community stop relying on the idea that people are trapped into either being fat or droopy afterward so much. it's time for a true celebration and respect, otherwise there is going to be a tremendous increase in fat people who are going to opt out altogether--which we are already seeing.



Insurance does often cover the most basic reconstructive procedures. We have a top of the line health plan (highest plan offered employees of one of California's richest counties). My wife was referred to a board certified plastic surgeon who specializes in post-bariatric reconstruction. After the visit our insurance approved a panniculectomy in less than 24 hours.

http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/patient/adult_procedures/panniculectomy/

The panniculectomy costs $4,500 -- its a three hour operation performed at an outpatient surgical clinic. Many people have to fight for even this. However, for optimum results my wife needs a full 360 degree body lift. This is a nine hour procedure that can only be done inpatient at a hospital at a cost of almost $18,000. The insurance pays their $4,500 and I pay the rest. That's pretty much as good as it gets.

Breasts and arms will need to be done later (together) and will cost another $17,000.

So the total cost is 35K. Insurance picks up only 4.5K. I don't believe the ACA changes anything. If you want to look good after major weight loss it's going to cost you.


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## superodalisque (Mar 10, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Insurance does often cover the most basic reconstructive procedures. We have a top of the line health plan (highest plan offered employees of one of California's richest counties). My wife was referred to a board certified plastic surgeon who specializes in post-bariatric reconstruction. After the visit our insurance approved a panniculectomy in less than 24 hours.
> 
> http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/patient/adult_procedures/panniculectomy/
> 
> ...




some hospitals, states and locals have private finding as well. that could save some cash. of course there are lots of places that don't have any programs but if there are some or available it wouldn't hurt to investigate through a hospitalist social worker etc...it could save you guys some cash.


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## loopytheone (Mar 11, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> while I agree with you it's not my choice to tell other people what weight to be. we can only explore both sides of things. it might be emotional health for some people that's in question. to me when others choose to be thin it has nothing to do with my own self worth or that of other fat people. I think it's time for the fat community to stop investing so much in keeping people from doing things and create more good reasons why they shouldn't--like more celebratory attitudes and mind/society changing activities. we've started looking a lot like the fat hate mongers on the other side.



I am not sure where you are getting this from at all? My point was that if you want to undergo dangerous surgery and have chunks of your organs removed in a way that will alter your internal physiology for life on the basis that you want to improve your appearance then the doctors thinking of doing this better be damn sure that this is actually what the patient wants and not distorted thinking due to depression etc. At one point I dreamed of having WLS. I was about 140lbs. If somebody had offered it to me for free I would have done it in a heart beat. But looking back I am so so glad that never happened as I have come to realise I am strong and beautiful and healthy and that getting to 100lbs was never going to change my life. But at the time my depression was so bad I would have done so in a heart beat, like I said. And I think that for the sake of the patient doctors should make sure they are in a stable mental state before performing WLS for the sake of appearance alone. 

Also, where on earth have I said or implied anything about people wanting to be thin altering my self worth?! That is ridiculous if you actually know me. If you want to be thin, awesome, you do that. If we are friends/family then my only concern will be that you do so in a way that is healthy and not going to cause you malnutrition or healthy problems down the line. I am easily the fattest person in my family and group of friends and they are always dieting and I can assure you it doesn't bother me in the slightest because it is their body. 

I don't see how I was 'investing do much in keeping people from doing things' at all. I simply said that in some cases I don't agree with WLS being given and that the doctors need to be more careful with who and when they give the procedure and as I stated in my original post, that is my opinion and I am entitled to have it. I don't see any way in which I was telling people they can't be thin or 'hate mongering' on people who are or people who have WLS. I have no idea where you are getting that from at all.

You really need to avoid putting words in people's mouths and seeing things in posts that simply aren't there.


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## HereticFA (Mar 11, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Insurance does often cover the most basic reconstructive procedures.


United Healthcare insurance covers weight loss related plastic surgery only if it's the result of WLS. Lose 300 lbs on your own, you're on your own. Lose 100 lbs from WLS, you're covered.


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## HereticFA (Mar 11, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> while I agree with you it's not my choice to tell other people what weight to be. we can only explore both sides of things. it might be emotional health for some people that's in question. to me when others choose to be thin it has nothing to do with my own self worth or that of other fat people. I think it's time for the fat community to stop investing so much in keeping people from doing things and create more good reasons why they shouldn't--like more celebratory attitudes and mind/society changing activities. we've started looking a lot like the fat hate mongers on the other side.


Maybe your right, maybe Dimensions should join up with Weight Watchers, Obesity Help, American Society of Metabolic and Obesity Surgery, and all the other people selling false hope to fat people that they can be thin and healthy by practicing extreme caloric restriction. Then they can be given the faux red carpet treatment like the Obesity Help Conventions. Most people always respond well to flattery, even if it's not honest. Cold, hard truth doesn't sell as well.

How do you think we're keeping fat people from doing things? At most, we're speaking about their poor choices that lead to bad outcomes. In most cases, they will defend their actions and we'll dispute their choices. That's called public discourse. They need to accept they are not going to satisfy everyone. I recommend everyone who wants to lose weight to get several weight loss and nutrition books from the library, educate yourself and try a variety of diets. Learn how your body responds to a variety of nutrients. Pay attention to how your body reacts for two to three hours after you've eaten. Don't just keep blindly shoving food into yourself. Learn to eat to relieve hunger, not to get full. Check into the HAES approach to living. Accept that it's going to take many tries before it becomes a normal part of your life and not just something you're "trying". It's not where you're at in a year, it's where you're at in ten years.

I know I'm probably upsetting some people at the same time I'm educating others. I'm focusing on the ones who thank me for the information I provide. I know I'm not going to please someone who is so invested in the solution they chose to downplay their complications. I've known of people on their deathbed from WLS complications who would still choose WLS if they had it all to do over again. There's no reasoning with that delusional mentality. I'd rather help someone develop the skills and tools to avoid that path entirely. There's no reason for someone to feel helpless with respect to food and their weight.


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## EMH1701 (Mar 11, 2014)

The other expense people tend to forget about, but which seems obvious if you think about it, is clothes. Clothes are becoming more and more expensive. Yeah, there are places like thrift stores, but they tend to be lacking in plus sizes.


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## bigmac (Mar 11, 2014)

HereticFA said:


> United Healthcare insurance covers weight loss related plastic surgery only if it's the result of WLS. Lose 300 lbs on your own, you're on your own. Lose 100 lbs from WLS, you're covered.



United Healthcare will only pay $4,5oo -- even if you've lost over 300 pounds after WLS. Speaking from experience.


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## superodalisque (Mar 11, 2014)

HereticFA said:


> Maybe your right, maybe Dimensions should join up with Weight Watchers, Obesity Help, American Society of Metabolic and Obesity Surgery, and all the other people selling false hope to fat people that they can be thin and healthy by practicing extreme caloric restriction. Then they can be given the faux red carpet treatment like the Obesity Help Conventions. Most people always respond well to flattery, even if it's not honest. Cold, hard truth doesn't sell as well.
> 
> How do you think we're keeping fat people from doing things? At most, we're speaking about their poor choices that lead to bad outcomes. In most cases, they will defend their actions and we'll dispute their choices. That's called public discourse. They need to accept they are not going to satisfy everyone. I recommend everyone who wants to lose weight to get several weight loss and nutrition books from the library, educate yourself and try a variety of diets. Learn how your body responds to a variety of nutrients. Pay attention to how your body reacts for two to three hours after you've eaten. Don't just keep blindly shoving food into yourself. Learn to eat to relieve hunger, not to get full. Check into the HAES approach to living. Accept that it's going to take many tries before it becomes a normal part of your life and not just something you're "trying". It's not where you're at in a year, it's where you're at in ten years.
> 
> I know I'm probably upsetting some people at the same time I'm educating others. I'm focusing on the ones who thank me for the information I provide. I know I'm not going to please someone who is so invested in the solution they chose to downplay their complications. I've known of people on their deathbed from WLS complications who would still choose WLS if they had it all to do over again. There's no reasoning with that delusional mentality. I'd rather help someone develop the skills and tools to avoid that path entirely. There's no reason for someone to feel helpless with respect to food and their weight.



most parts if the community are either focusing on victim mentality or being the object of out of control fetish. in other words nearly everything dysfunctional about being fat. If you monitor your own weight for your own purposes even with the intention of staying fat you risk threats of shunning and exclusion. any claims about taking care of yourself ends in squeals that you are claiming that others are "death fats " for not doing the same. you ignore what many purposefully ignore. most people never wanted WLS. if they had been in a more friendly environment where it was okay to be health conscious and stay strong as well as be fat and have ways to do that discussed out in the open many of them would never have had a thought or need bogus or not of WLS. the community has brought it to this point. even NAAFA coddled fetishists who pushed not only more is better but the most is best for absolutely everyone attitude at the detriment of people even when they made it obvious that they were struggling.


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## bigmac (Mar 11, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> some hospitals, states and locals have private finding as well. that could save some cash. of course there are lots of places that don't have any programs but if there are some or available it wouldn't hurt to investigate through a hospitalist social worker etc...it could save you guys some cash.



We're in the position were we make too much to qualify for such programs but not enough to easily pay out of pocket. We'll be able to come up with the cash and in this respect we're fortunate. We have a house we're not using that we'll be selling (anyone want to buy a house in Stockton?)


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## HereticFA (Mar 12, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> most parts if the community are either focusing on victim mentality or being the object of out of control fetish. in other words nearly everything dysfunctional about being fat. If you monitor your own weight for your own purposes even with the intention of staying fat you risk threats of shunning and exclusion. any claims about taking care of yourself ends in squeals that you are claiming that others are "death fats " for not doing the same. you ignore what many purposefully ignore. most people never wanted WLS. if they had been in a more friendly environment where it was okay to be health conscious and stay strong as well as be fat and have ways to do that discussed out in the open many of them would never have had a thought or need bogus or not of WLS. the community has brought it to this point. even NAAFA coddled fetishists who pushed not only more is better but the most is best for absolutely everyone attitude at the detriment of people even when they made it obvious that they were struggling.


Sadly, a lot of what you complain about has happened in the past. It's because everyone was focusing on what was important to themselves, just like you are. NAAFA was a collection of individuals, not a strong organization with a coherent, supportive approach across all of it's fronts. It's reach exceeded it's grasp. Frequently in NAAFA the most belligerently outspoken opponents to any weight control were the feminist contingent who saw _any_ weight control (including healthy eating) as a form of male oppression of women's bodies. That group pretty well ostracized everyone else and made NAAFA the organization it is today. And as for NAAFA "coddling fetishists", NAAFA was partially founded by those who you label as fetishists. Having a physical preference in a partner doesn't make them a fetishist.


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## nixon (Mar 12, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Insurance does often cover the most basic reconstructive procedures. We have a top of the line health plan (highest plan offered employees of one of California's richest counties). My wife was referred to a board certified plastic surgeon who specializes in post-bariatric reconstruction. After the visit our insurance approved a panniculectomy in less than 24 hours.
> 
> http://surgery.med.umich.edu/plastic/patient/adult_procedures/panniculectomy/
> 
> ...



It does make sense though, that even of a lot of patience factor looks into their decision to have the surgery done, that insurances would not. And they probably shouldn't either. 

So when you say "need to be done later", do you mean for it to look good and your wife to be happy with her breasts and arms or do you mean she currently has health problems from hanging skin in those places? Because I do think it is fair for the insurance to make health the only factor in their decision. Even if that sucks for you guys right now.


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## superodalisque (Mar 13, 2014)

HereticFA said:


> Sadly, a lot of what you complain about has happened in the past. It's because everyone was focusing on what was important to themselves, just like you are. NAAFA was a collection of individuals, not a strong organization with a coherent, supportive approach across all of it's fronts. It's reach exceeded it's grasp. Frequently in NAAFA the most belligerently outspoken opponents to any weight control were the feminist contingent who saw _any_ weight control (including healthy eating) as a form of male oppression of women's bodies. That group pretty well ostracized everyone else and made NAAFA the organization it is today. And as for NAAFA "coddling fetishists", NAAFA was partially founded by those who you label as fetishists. Having a physical preference in a partner doesn't make them a fetishist.



self describing as fetishist does make them fetishists. living a fetishist life style makes them fetishists. telling fat people that no one will like them but a
"specialist" is fetishistic. referring to people as "the fat" instead of as individuals is fetishistic. it would have been okay to be a fetishist if people evolved but they generally have not and have the same kind of voyeuristic emotionally removed mentality they did way back when . the only difference is that they have a much less willing audience. what i'm describing did not just happened in the past. it's happening now and it is eating the community from the inside out because fat people on their own independent of the fat community are more aware of their worth as people and will accept much less of this kind of objectification passing as care. don't expect that the things tolerated in the past will be tolerated today. in those times fat people were extremely desperate compared to now. back then they were very grateful for any seemingly positive attention. there were much fewer people who were super fat for one thing. baby boomers were young. and it was era before monsanto started putting all of the gaining hormones in meat and milk and the lions share of youngish people were thin. none of that is true anymore.


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## bigmac (Mar 14, 2014)

nixon said:


> ...
> 
> So when you say "need to be done later", do you mean for it to look good and your wife to be happy with her breasts and arms or do you mean she currently has health problems from hanging skin in those places? Because I do think it is fair for the insurance to make health the only factor in their decision. Even if that sucks for you guys right now.



I suppose its possible to have so much loose skin on your arms that it causes health problems. However, my wife's arms were never that large when compared with to the rest of her. If you're looking you'll notice loose skin but its not a health issue. Breast reconstruction is cosmetic as well. However, no one wants to live the rest of their life with bat wings (even small ones) and deflated beasts.

My point here is that while we knew there would be costs associated with post-WLS reconstruction we weren't really prepared for how extensive the procedures would be and just how expensive they would be.

These costs need to be factored into people's WLS decisions. If a person cannot afford post-WLS reconstruction there's a good chance that they're going to be left with a body that is more disappointing than the body they had pre-WLS


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## HereticFA (Mar 17, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> self describing as fetishist does make them fetishists.


And you're always there with your divisive labels failing to recognize shades of gray in behavior. Not all FAs are fetishists. It's so obvious your puerile hatred of anyone stating a preference for a fuller figure in their mate it makes me wonder if you're not part of a CDC effort to disrupt operations of targeted groups like here at Dimensions. You're always quick to attack _every_ aspect of fat acceptance.


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## superodalisque (Mar 18, 2014)

HereticFA said:


> And you're always there with your divisive labels failing to recognize shades of gray in behavior. Not all FAs are fetishists. It's so obvious your puerile hatred of anyone stating a preference for a fuller figure in their mate it makes me wonder if you're not part of a CDC effort to disrupt operations of targeted groups like here at Dimensions. You're always quick to attack _every_ aspect of fat acceptance.



i see you're getting defensive instead of addressing my points. the only people i addressed here were fetishists. you can deflect if you like with another long drawn out and unrepresentative argument about terms if you like but the point is fat people who do try to take care of themselves or do what they canto remain comfortably fat are attacked and that cannot be denied. and those attacking them are generally fetishists.


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## superodalisque (Mar 18, 2014)

Tracyarts said:


> It is a consideration.
> 
> I didn't see any real changes in my body until I passed 100 pounds lost. (I have not had WLS, I have lost the weight with major long-term diet and physical activity changes). I've got a foot-long scar down the center of my belly from surgery several years ago and the skin is a little puckery and pulled in around the bottom half of it. It doesn't bother me though. But if I lose enough more weight that it does become an issue, I'll have my belly apron surgery and be good with the results. The way I look at it, is that when I went into surgery I was told that being a supersized person, a very large belly incision could result in major wound issues. I was prepared for the worse and made peace with that possibility. My upper arms bother me a bit because they did not shrink symmetrically, and the right is significantly larger than the left. It's a pain in the ass when it comes to clothing fit sometimes because of sleeves. But the only way I'd get them fixed would be if I were to lose a lot more weight and the size difference became even more extreme. As it stands now, it's an annoyance, but not a big enough annoyance to justify the pain and expense of surgery.
> 
> ...



i lost about 100lbs too. i had a lot of lose skin for a while but eventually even though i'm past 50 it shrank. so it's different for everybody. i don't think i would be as lucky if i had lost more weight than that all at once. it might be possible that since WLS affects your nutrient intake it could possible make it harder for your skin to shrink back into place.


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## HereticFA (Mar 18, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> i see you're getting defensive instead of addressing my points. the only people i addressed here were fetishists. you can deflect if you like with another long drawn out and unrepresentative argument about terms if you like but the point is fat people who do try to take care of themselves or do what they canto remain comfortably fat are attacked and that cannot be denied. and those attacking them are generally fetishists.



And you had such a scattershot of points I just addressed the first one I came to. Otherwise it would have been tl;dr for you.

I've not seen anyone discussing general weight control or exercise attacked on Dimensions for several years. Only the _procedure_ of WLS, and the _viewpoint_ of people who tout it as the Only Solution. If someone can't take an opposing viewpoint in the same room with themselves then there is a problem with them. I can take it, and I'll discuss it. Do you have some pathological need for everyone to agree with you and see things your way? Do you need an echo chamber for your ideas and viewpoints? I don't, nor do I seek conflict. I do seek to offer balance of viewpoints where I see an imbalance on issues I'm interested in. It's called a debate, and most every situation is open for debate, unless it's a closed thread or the scope of the thread is limited by the OP.


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## HereticFA (Mar 18, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> most parts if the community are either focusing on victim mentality or being the object of out of control fetish. in other words nearly everything dysfunctional about being fat. If you monitor your own weight for your own purposes even with the intention of staying fat you risk threats of shunning and exclusion. any claims about taking care of yourself ends in squeals that you are claiming that others are "death fats " for not doing the same. you ignore what many purposefully ignore. most people never wanted WLS. if they had been in a more friendly environment where it was okay to be health conscious and stay strong as well as be fat and have ways to do that discussed out in the open many of them would never have had a thought or need bogus or not of WLS. the community has brought it to this point. even NAAFA coddled fetishists who pushed not only more is better but the most is best for absolutely everyone attitude at the detriment of people even when they made it obvious that they were struggling.


It sounds like you are describing what I now call the "Insane Clown Posse" that essentially took over NAAFA. They are the militant feminist fat activists who will ban you for ever talking about weight loss or weight management of any kind. (Been there, done that, got banned.) It's that mentality that essentially caused several of the early movers and shakers in NAAFA to leave and start another organization, the _Council on Size and Weight Discrimination_.

You keep painting all of the Fat Acceptance community with the same broad brush. You have failed to see the various segments as very individualized with their own behaviors. And at the time, while FAs were accepted in NAAFA, the feeders were basically attacked by the villagers with pitchforks. So your claims of NAAFA supporting fetishists is flat out wrong. If you're extending the fetishist label to FAs, then every preference in life can be labeled as a fetish. That would be interesting since doggedly pursuing an "equality fetish" then becomes obvious.


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## superodalisque (Mar 19, 2014)

HereticFA said:


> And you had such a scattershot of points I just addressed the first one I came to. Otherwise it would have been tl;dr for you.
> 
> I've not seen anyone discussing general weight control or exercise attacked on Dimensions for several years. Only the _procedure_ of WLS, and the _viewpoint_ of people who tout it as the Only Solution. If someone can't take an opposing viewpoint in the same room with themselves then there is a problem with them. I can take it, and I'll discuss it. Do you have some pathological need for everyone to agree with you and see things your way? Do you need an echo chamber for your ideas and viewpoints? I don't, nor do I seek conflict. I do seek to offer balance of viewpoints where I see an imbalance on issues I'm interested in. It's called a debate, and most every situation is open for debate, unless it's a closed thread or the scope of the thread is limited by the OP.



dims is not the entire fat community. and even here if you claim you have not seen any anti health and safety talk lately you haven't been paying attention to the recent shrill cries "deathfatz". i would find it strange if you didn't notice since you even participated in those threads.

NAAFA did once support fetishists and it had to be revamped because of all of the turmoil and because of politically untenable positions. you can't say that changing people through weight loss is any different from changing them for weight gain. neither accepts fat people as they are. i know the history and so does everyone else. they cleaned house. and now there is some serious policing at their events when it comes to intentions. it's no secret. and your denial has made me totally lose any respect i could have had for anything you have to say on the subject.

no you don't have to agree with me but if i see a hole in your positions i will say so. if i'm going to decide for myself if your ideas are worthwhile to me personally i need to explore them. you're not a god. i don't take what you say on faith unquestioningly especially when you use talking points like the success and dieting study that you have already discussed here previously that you already admitted has nothing to do with anybody just losing a few lbs so that they can remain mobile but are based on statistics that are basically fat phobic because they have an expectation that "success" means actually being thin. so far nothing you've said has made any logical sense to me. and i find much of it misleading , disingenuous and plain old untrue. i think it's hateful and irresponsible to fear monger and try to discourage fat people away from less drastic means of caring for themselves just because some people might personally like them as fat as possible. and if you think i'm the only one seeing how bogus it is you are wrong.


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## bigmac (Apr 25, 2014)

My wife's having her first reconstructive surgery today (circumferential body lift). We encountered another expense -- the hospital wanted another $500 before they'd check my wife in. That's on top of the 13.5K we already paid and the 4.5K insurance will pay. Looks like we're going to have to keep driving our old cars a few more years.


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## superodalisque (Apr 25, 2014)

sometimes there is not a price that can be put on the value of somebody's satisfaction.


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## bigmac (Apr 25, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> sometimes there is not a price that can be put on the value of somebody's satisfaction.



That's true. Its fortunate we had the money. I don't mind spending it. My main point here is that its possible -- indeed likely -- that people who undergo WLS "successfully" are going to be left on the hook for most of the subsequent costs. When hopeful fat people attend seminars about WLS this fact is down played (if its mentioned at all). I suspect our country is full of thousands of post WLS patients who need reconstructive surgery but cannot afford it.


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## superodalisque (Apr 25, 2014)

bigmac said:


> That's true. Its fortunate we had the money. I don't mind spending it. My main point here is that its possible -- indeed likely -- that people who undergo WLS "successfully" are going to be left on the hook for most of the subsequent costs. When hopeful fat people attend seminars about WLS this fact is down played (if its mentioned at all). I suspect our country is full of thousands of post WLS patients who need reconstructive surgery but cannot afford it.



that is true but some people are more concerned with being alive


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## bigmac (Apr 25, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> that is true but some people are more concerned with being alive



Again true. However, being stuck with body akin to a deflated balloon is an issue. This is especially so given that most people who have WLS expect to look better afterwards. Indeed cosmetic consideration play a major role in most decisions to have WLS -- often the medical reasons/jusifications are just for insurance purposes.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 25, 2014)

I didn't have WLS but I lost over 400 lbs.
I can't afford skin removal, lifts, or reconstruction of any kind. I was able to partially replace my wardrobe (including my underwear and bras) through internet groups selling used or unwanted new items at a huge discount--some pieces for less than $5 plus postage, but that's another cost that many people can't afford. thank goodness for Ebay too. If I had to work in a professional atmosphere, I'd be screwed though.


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## bigmac (Apr 25, 2014)

My wife's in recovery. The operation lasted took over eight hours and they removed over twenty pounds of skin and associated tissue.


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## PolkaDotty (Apr 25, 2014)

First and foremost - best wishes to your wife for a speedy and full recovery. 

I guess this thread just confuses me. It almost reads like you feel these unanticipated expenses are somehow unfair, or unjust. Or sneaky. To me, life at any size has consequences and costs. If people were to stay at their current size and NOT have WLS, that, too, has associated costs. Are those being ignored here? Are people not supposed to have WLS, thinking it's somehow a way to save money? :doh:


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## bigmac (Apr 27, 2014)

PolkaDotty said:


> First and foremost - best wishes to your wife for a speedy and full recovery.
> 
> I guess this thread just confuses me. It almost reads like you feel these unanticipated expenses are somehow unfair, or unjust. Or sneaky. To me, life at any size has consequences and costs. If people were to stay at their current size and NOT have WLS, that, too, has associated costs. Are those being ignored here? Are people not supposed to have WLS, thinking it's somehow a way to save money? :doh:



I'm neither a proponent or opponent of WLS. However, I have seen how WLS is marketed and promoted. The benefits of WLS are often oversold and the consequences minimized or ignored. Reconstructive costs are definitely minimized (ignored if the potential WLS patient doesn't bring the subject up). My point with this thread is that true extent and cost of post WLS reconstruction has been for us (me and my wife) surprising. We're not naive people we fully understood that there would be post WLS reconstruction costs. However, we were thinking more 15-20K not 35-40K. So sneaky may indeed be an appropriate adjective.

The WLS route involves more than just the initial operation. I fear many people are starting down a road they will not have the financial resources to complete.


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## HottiMegan (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm certainly not looking forward to more saggy skin. I didn't have wls but am losing through eating less junk and moving more. I've only dropped a couple of sizes and maybe 60lbs. My butt and lower belly are starting show skin looseness. My most hated deflation part is my former double chin. It's shrinking and starting to look icky to me. I hope it won't be too terrible when/if i get to the point of needing skin removal. We have really great insurance and all hospital expenses are 100% covered if it takes place in an adventist hospital.


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## bigmac (Apr 27, 2014)

HottiMegan said:


> I'm certainly not looking forward to more saggy skin. I didn't have wls but am losing through eating less junk and moving more. I've only dropped a couple of sizes and maybe 60lbs. My butt and lower belly are starting show skin looseness. My most hated deflation part is my former double chin. It's shrinking and starting to look icky to me. I hope it won't be too terrible when/if i get to the point of needing skin removal. *We have really great insurance and all hospital expenses are 100% covered* if it takes place in an adventist hospital.



I wouldn't be relying on insurance too much. We have top of the line insurance too. They readily agreed to pay for what they considered _*medically necessary*_ -- this worked out to be about 25% of the circumferential body lift costs. None of the phase two poceedures (arm reductions and breast reconstruction) are going to be considered _medically necessary_ so we'll be required to pay 100% for those.


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## HottiMegan (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm just talking about things that take place in the hosptial, like the stay and aftercare is 100%.. doctors fees and wahtnot go along normal costs.


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## indy500tchr (Apr 27, 2014)

HottiMegan said:


> I'm just talking about things that take place in the hosptial, like the stay and aftercare is 100%.. doctors fees and wahtnot go along normal costs.



You might want to speak with your insurance company about that. If your hospital stay is for something that is considered cosmetic or voluntary that isn't covered by your plan, they will not cover the hospital or doctor bills either. 

I speak from experience. My friend was in a car accident but since he was under the influence (he wasn't even driving) he now has $40,000 in medical bills b/c the insurance refused to pay b/c he chose to be intoxicated. He works for a hospital and has amazing insurance too.


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## Jah (Apr 27, 2014)

I've lost over 40lbs so far and I've had very little loose skin but I am definitely worried about it. I intend to lose a total of 150lbs for having mobility issues, my quality of life is really terrible and I spend most of my day simply sitting in a chair thanks to mobility problems. So I feel I had no choice with the weightloss. I'm worried about the loose skin because I'm on a pension at the moment and have no idea how I will be able to afford its removal. It's already hard enough buying the new clothes as I go down clothing sizes, I've gone from a size 28 to a size 24. I'm hoping that my age will help (I'm 30).


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## moniquessbbw (May 1, 2014)

No one who is on deaths door and decides to have WLS cares about the loose skin. I for one used the fact that I didn't know what my body was going to look like as an excuse years ago to postpone surgery. Near death it was time for no more excuses. My Pannus removal was covered. My arms were not covered but I have a great brother who is a hospital administrator. He deals with the contracts between doctors and the hospitals. So he had my arms done by a plastic surgeon who does post WLS body reconstruction. I was very blessed to receive such a gift and he is also having my thighs done when I am ready. I have had wound care due to infection from each surgery I have had. I don't heal well. I had a blood clot that blew out my arm pit post op and for the last year have been recovering from my arms being done. It is frustrating with the all the post WLS surgery but it is also part of the journey. In PA it is all covered. In TX it is covered. But in CA you have to fight for any plastic surgery besides the pannus removal. My skin removal total so far is 42lbs. My thighs will get done then I am finished. I don't feel the need for fake boobs. I just buy good bras. I don't wear Spanx they are just torture devices. What you see is what you get, rolls and all.


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## bigmac (May 1, 2014)

While its obviously true that someone who was on deaths door before WLS is not likely to care about loose skin. However, it has to be remembered that only a tiny fraction of WLS patients are at deaths door. The goal of most WLS patients is to be what society considers normal. Without post WLS reconstruction this is often not possible. WLS is sold as a procedure that makes fat people "normal" -- unfortunately that is not true -- at least not without lots of expensive post WLS procedures.


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## CastingPearls (May 1, 2014)

bigmac said:


> While its obviously true that someone who was on deaths door before WLS is not likely to care about loose skin. However, it has to be remembered that only a tiny fraction of WLS patients are at deaths door. The goal of most WLS patients is to be what society considers normal. Without post WLS reconstruction this is often not possible. WLS is sold as a procedure that makes fat people "normal" -- unfortunately that is not true -- at least not without lots of expensive post WLS procedures.


I initially considered WLS because of poor health and the surgeon I saw had a clinic with a department devoted to getting insurance to cover excess skin removal. They asked me to lose 100 pounds and had already gotten me covered for the surgery, and the followup surgery for upper arms and pannus (in PA), so I agree with Monique that it depends on the state, but it also depends on who's working with the insurance companies on one's behalf. If you have to fight for it yourself (some outright say no, and yet persistence pays off anyway, in my experience with my doctors).

After I lost that 100 lbs. as well as the 100 lbs. I lost before I went to the surgeon for a consult, I decided against WLS for many reasons and lost more on my own. Since my divorce, I haven't had insurance so I'm living with loose skin but I'll live with that until I'm more financially able to do anything about it. In my case, loose skin was absolutely a consideration, but not a dealbreaker whether I went along with WLS or losing the weight on my own. My life (and quality of it) was and is the most important factor.


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## moniquessbbw (May 2, 2014)

bigmac said:


> While its obviously true that someone who was on deaths door before WLS is not likely to care about loose skin. However, it has to be remembered that only a tiny fraction of WLS patients are at deaths door. The goal of most WLS patients is to be what society considers normal. Without post WLS reconstruction this is often not possible. WLS is sold as a procedure that makes fat people "normal" -- unfortunately that is not true -- at least not without lots of expensive post WLS procedures.



I disagree with this. Most people have WLS because they are out of options. No one wakes up and says I think I will have WLS today. It took years for me to decide. I went through a 3 year fight to get them to even operate on me at almost 600lbs. Getting WLS is not as easy as it use to be many many years ago. You have months of classes, therapy, the pre-diet and exercise if you are able to move around. They told me everything that could happen to me even the fact that my chances of death were over 80% if I had surgery and 100% if I did not have surgery. So I rolled the dice. I am not thin but I have a new quality that I am thrilled about. I now own a watch because I can find one that fist my wrist. My ring size went from a 10 to a 8. My shoe size is no longer wide. Everything on your entire body changes. Do I like the way it all looks? I am very happy to be alive it what my answer will always be. Extra skin is the least of my problems. My arms being done were extremely important to me. I felt incomplete and it made me look bigger. Plus the extra skin hanging is painful. Imagine a 5lb bag of potatoes hanging from each arm. Try and function doing little things like getting something out of the oven without burning the extra hanging skin. It was hell dealing with the arm skin. I had to buy a coat 3 sizes to big just to fit my arms in it. Now for the first time in my life my arms feel normal to me, my normal is all that counts. I am happy with my results and have zero regrets on having WLS. It takes years to get it all done so plan ahead and save if your INS company won't do more than the Pannus removal. I am waiting to find out if my INS will pay for my thighs. If they don't I am blessed to have a brother who has plastic surgeons as friends.


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 2, 2014)

Monique, I think bigmac means to say that a lot of people who have WLS are not as serious about it as you. We all tend to assume -- sometimes, at least --that other people think and feel the way we do. I have followed your account of your WLS and I can tell you that I have met very few people in my life as smart. as brave, and as strong as you are. :bow: I believe that's why your surgery has proven so successful. My own experience with WLS -- which is entirely at second hand -- tends to support bigmac. My wife worked in an office with a dozen women, three of whom had WLS: I knew two of them pretty well. The first did not change her lifestyle* in any way: within a year she was heavier than before. The second did not change her lifestyle, either: within a year she had stopped losing, and so she had WLS again. The third was a very bright, dynamic, self-disciplined person, and although she nearly died after her surgery (some stitches broke and dumped food into her peritoneal cavity), she let nothing stop her, and she has maintained her goal weight for several years. Some people are more dedicated than others, and these are the ones most likely to succeed, whether at losing weight or any other project.

*In Oklahoma, "lifestyle" means, "If it ain't fried, it ain't _food_."


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## bigmac (May 2, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Monique, I think bigmac means to say that a lot of people who have WLS are not as serious about it as you. ...



Actually that's not my point. My point -- which actually applies to people who get serious about the program the most -- is that they're not going to get the promised returns from WLS unless and until they fork out for very expensive reconstructive procedures. The more successful the WLS the greater the need for reconstruction. This wouldn't be a problem if the WLS industry was more upfront about the extent of reconstruction that is often required and if insurance companies were not so reluctant to pay. The WLS industry pushes their product and insurance companies foot the bill. However, that only gets the patient halfway.

I'm neither for or against WLS. I recognize WLS as a rational choice for many people. It's also my opinion the the benefits of WLS are over sold and the negative aspects (including the $$$ issues I raised here) deceptively minimized.

For the record my wife took her WLS very seriously. She was down 324 pounds before her circumferential body lift last week where they removed 21 pounds of excess skin. As I type this she's recovering in the next room wearing size medium yoga pants.


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## moniquessbbw (May 2, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Actually that's not my point. My point -- which actually applies to people who get serious about the program the most -- is that they're not going to get the promised returns from WLS unless and until they fork out for very expensive reconstructive procedures. The more successful the WLS the greater the need for reconstruction. This wouldn't be a problem if the WLS industry was more upfront about the extent of reconstruction that is often required and if insurance companies were not so reluctant to pay. The WLS industry pushes their product and insurance companies foot the bill. However, that only gets the patient halfway.
> 
> I'm neither for or against WLS. I recognize WLS as a rational choice for many people. It's also my opinion the the benefits of WLS are over sold and the negative aspects (including the $$$ issues I raised here) deceptively minimized.
> 
> For the record my wife took her WLS very seriously. She was down 324 pounds before her circumferential body lift last week where they removed 21 pounds of excess skin. As I type this she's recovering in the next room wearing size medium yoga pants.


 
Tell her I wish her a speedy recovery and congrats on her success. I believe that people aren't concerned with the skin issue post op. They are so happy to have a new life you just worry about the skin later. It takes a few years to lose it all depending on the amount you have to lose. Living with the skin is better than death.


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## moniquessbbw (May 2, 2014)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> Monique, I think bigmac means to say that a lot of people who have WLS are not as serious about it as you. We all tend to assume -- sometimes, at least --that other people think and feel the way we do. I have followed your account of your WLS and I can tell you that I have met very few people in my life as smart. as brave, and as strong as you are. :bow: I believe that's why your surgery has proven so successful. My own experience with WLS -- which is entirely at second hand -- tends to support bigmac. My wife worked in an office with a dozen women, three of whom had WLS: I knew two of them pretty well. The first did not change her lifestyle* in any way: within a year she was heavier than before. The second did not change her lifestyle, either: within a year she had stopped losing, and so she had WLS again. The third was a very bright, dynamic, self-disciplined person, and although she nearly died after her surgery (some stitches broke and dumped food into her peritoneal cavity), she let nothing stop her, and she has maintained her goal weight for several years. Some people are more dedicated than others, and these are the ones most likely to succeed, whether at losing weight or any other project.
> 
> *In Oklahoma, "lifestyle" means, "If it ain't fried, it ain't _food_."



Thank you and fried is no longer allowed in my kitchen. Fried foods will kill you so I avoid them at all costs. I had a bite of an egg roll last week and got sick. My body just can't handle the grease. I still throw up if I eat anything bad.


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## bigmac (May 28, 2014)

Its been four weeks since my wife had her circumferential body lift. Her doctor says she's recovering very nicely (apparently very nicely still involves lots of pain). She went back to work this week. She has a desk job -- otherwise she'd still be off work.

She's so small now -- its very strange.


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## Marlayna (May 29, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Its been four weeks since my wife had her circumferential body lift. Her doctor says she's recovering very nicely (apparently very nicely still involves lots of pain). She went back to work this week. She has a desk job -- otherwise she'd still be off work.
> 
> She's so small now -- its very strange.


I'm glad everything went well, and getting used to a little wife will be strange for a while. I had it done a number of years ago, myself, but I ain't little no mo. :eat1:
The thing I dislike most about all the weight I've gained back, is that I used to walk for miles at a time without getting tired. I really miss that.


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## moore2me (May 29, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Its been four weeks since my wife had her circumferential body lift. Her doctor says she's recovering very nicely (apparently very nicely still involves lots of pain). She went back to work this week. She has a desk job -- otherwise she'd still be off work.
> 
> *She's so small now -- its very strange*.



Mac, I don't know if your wife reads the DIMS boards or not. But I advise that you owe her a bunch of pretty flowers, or some perfume, or something she really likes. I have been thru the angst of this WLS myself and would not appreciate Mr M2M using my painful time under the knife & how crappy I felt during recovery at the same time he called me "strange". 

I am sure you love your wife, but girls are girls. Call me sexy, a vixen, a warrior, a vamp, and a hot babe is okay but calling me strange would require further explanation and a whole lot of groveling from hubby.

M2M AKA Fruitcup


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## Dr. Feelgood (May 29, 2014)

moore2me said:


> I am sure you love your wife, but girls are girls. Call me sexy, a vixen, a warrior, a vamp, and a hot babe is okay but calling me strange would require further explanation and a whole lot of groveling from hubby.
> 
> M2M AKA Fruitcup



It's really for bigmac to say, but I don't think he's calling his wife strange; he seems to be saying how strange (maybe he should have said "unfamiliar") it is to have a wife who is so small. I think he must be talking about the situation rather than the lady, because he uses the pronoun "it" instead of "she."


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## bigmac (May 30, 2014)

moore2me said:


> Mac, I don't know if your wife reads the DIMS boards or not. But I advise that you owe her a bunch of pretty flowers, or some perfume, or something she really likes. I have been thru the angst of this WLS myself and would not appreciate Mr M2M using my painful time under the knife & how crappy I felt during recovery at the same time he called me "strange".
> 
> I am sure you love your wife, but girls are girls. Call me sexy, a vixen, a warrior, a vamp, and a hot babe is okay but calling me strange would require further explanation and a whole lot of groveling from hubby.
> 
> M2M AKA Fruitcup




No worries she describes how she feels a strange or weird too (she'd been a fat girl her entire life).


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