# Helping a parner lose weight?



## mergirl (Feb 7, 2010)

Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?
If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 7, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?
> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
> I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?



I've never helped it per se, but have and would encourage it if the guy wanted to. Of course i can't say if my attraction would still be there (by attraction i just mean sexual, not whether or not they have a good personality) but i've had it happen twice and one time i still was attracted and the other i was less attracted. I would have no conflict of interest at all because i believe in every single case what a person does with his body is his choice and not mine. My attraction should not even be a factor. I personally won't be turned on at all if somebody is sad or uncomfortable with his weight or if there are either obvious health problems of either a physical or emotional nature.


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## MrRabbit (Feb 7, 2010)

I am not focussed on the whole weight gain thing. I have my body type preference, but within that preference, I don't have a problem with changes in weight, either direction. In any case, I find the relationship more enjoyable if my partner feels comfortable with her weight and prefer a smaller partner who feels comfortable over a bigger partner who is unhappy with her weight. Therefore I wouldn't mind helping my partner to loose some weight.

It's different if my partner would not want to be a BBW anymore. The love would still be there and because I love her, I would support her, but the sexual attraction would disappear.


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## Lightning Man (Feb 7, 2010)

I would never encourage a partner to lose weight. However, I would also not sabotage a partner trying to lose weight and would help the partner lose weight if asked (assuming the partner is not anorexic and assuming the partner losing weight did not affect *me* having *my* six cookies before bed, etc.)


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## Melian (Feb 8, 2010)

I wouldn't encourage it, just out of the blue, because that would probably piss him off! However, if he wanted to lose weight for health reasons, eg. needed to control diabetic complications, I would do the best I could to help.


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## BLUEeyedBanshee (Feb 8, 2010)

Melian said:


> I wouldn't encourage it, just out of the blue, because that would probably piss him off! However, if he wanted to lose weight for health reasons, eg. needed to control diabetic complications, I would do the best I could to help.



This exactly, or if he expressed a desire to lose. I am there right now, and doing this right now. He has expressed a desire to lose a bit, he is at a point where he isn't comfortable with his weight. 

Being that we live together and 95% of the time I am the one in the kitchen, I do my best to make sure that whatever I'm making for dinner, or on the weekends other meals, coincides with the the meal-plan he has laid out for himself. (even when he's determined that he can do it on his own)


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## Tad (Feb 9, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?



Yes, or at least been moderately supportive of her losing weight (I didn't pretend to be joyous about it, but I did try to make it clear that if that was what she wanted I would be fine with it, so long as she did it in a sane and healthy way. I took part in a number of lifestyle changes to help said sane and healthy way happen).



> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
> 
> I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?



In some very theoretical sense I'd say "Yes, of course I would." And as I wrote, I've supported my partner in losing weight.

However, between those two answers, there is a huge potential quagmire of partner's having different priorities, optimizing their lives for different things, and having different reference points and/or internalized definitions/expectations, not to mention the issue of the messages and meta-messages that we send when we suggest anything like this. It is all of that slippery footing that makes me hesitant to simply say "yes" in a broad sense.

What I guess I'd say is that if my partner was exhibiting behavior that I felt was unhealthy, I'd try to gently make my view on the topic known, and bring up alternatives. But ultimately it has to be their choice, and all that I'd generally feel comfortable with is trying to make clear what choice they seemed to be making, what alternate choices were, my preference on their choice, and assurance that they'd have my support in whatever difficulties making a different choice would entail.

Then again, one of my criteria for a relationship was always a good degree of sanity, self-awareness, and ability to care for oneself.


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## Imp (Feb 9, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?
> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
> I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?



My girl has a health condition in which she needs to keep her weight down. She gains weight pretty easily and has gained fifteen pounds or so over the holidays. Saw her for the first time in a month last night, and she looks (and feels) great!

But I'm gonna be her principal cheerleader for hitting that WiiFit every day.

The weight gain thing is a fantasy, and the natural variations day in and day out are enough material for me. In truth, there are some things I like about her more thinner and more about her fatter. And that's better than fantasy.


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## Gspoon (Feb 10, 2010)

I have not really HELPED a partner lose weight. I dated a BBW for 3 years and she didn't like her weight, she wanted to go to the gym. I didn't mind it, and encouraged it. But I soon grew to hate it. Not because she lost weight... but because she pretty much rubbed it in my face that she lost weight. That is uncalled for completely.

Nonetheless, I know plenty of big girls that lose weight due to health reasons. Which is great, I honestly prefer my friends that are big to be alive rather than huge and unhealthy.


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 10, 2010)

... Not in that sense. I would more than likely make a suggestion once, and then go from there, but it would have everything to do with how they are feeling and why they want to. Now if they were already trying to lose weight, curb smoking etc... then I'd definitely help with some stipulations e.g. what Spoony said.
I'll give two examples of friends that are trying right now. Both bbws.



1. One of my friends is trying to lose a drastic amount. She went in for an interview for WLS. I said "Good luck," and that's most I can give her because in the past she's said some very rude things about various people that in one case set us apart for months. I support what she wants to do because it's her choice, but she's not going to get much out of me in the support department period. Not because of the former (Interview). It's because of the latter and some other issues. 

2. One of my friends is trying to lose about 50 pounds or so. She had a hard year, and she gained due to stress and inactivity. She does have a goal in mind, but she thinks her well being is more important than the number. She just started going to the gym, and has lost as of now ten pounds. Every step of the way I'm like "GO HEAD!" lol  Even if she wanted to lose enough to become "Thin," I'd still support her. 


It's more about the mind I'd say for me. If x friend lost a dramatic amount, and stayed very humble and kind towards people of all sizes for that matter, I more than likely would have no reason to oppose what they are doing. Likewise, if y friend lost even a little, and turned into some weight loss evangelical, I don't care how close a friend I am: If it continues, and I'm not comfortable, I've got no problem with dropping them like trash. But it goes both ways with weight so yea. 

In general I just encourage healthy living for everyone.


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 10, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?


no, i have not.



mergirl said:


> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight?


no, i would not under any circumstances.


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## Wagimawr (Feb 10, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Why?
> 
> That's fucked, dude


Unless disconnectedsmile's coming at it from a perspective of "no, I would not encourage them to lose weight specifically, I would only encourage them to do things that improve their health, and I don't believe weight loss itself is an automatic fix for their health", yeah, yeah it is.

Could you explain, ds?


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## chicken legs (Feb 11, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?
> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
> I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?



I always help my loved ones mentally, physically, and spiritually. When it comes to my partner its a given..otherwise you're really not partners. Plus, I go gaga over folks who would be huge regardless of how much fat is on their body..


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 11, 2010)

Wagimawr said:


> "no, I would not encourage them to lose weight specifically, I would only encourage them to do things that improve their health, and I don't believe weight loss itself is an automatic fix for their health"



this. this.


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## Wagimawr (Feb 11, 2010)

Supposing the only option they had was to actively lose weight? What would you do then?


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 11, 2010)

Wagimawr said:


> Supposing the only option they had was to actively lose weight? What would you do then?



define "partner."


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## Wagimawr (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you. At least have the common decency to leave them so they can feel free and unpressured to lose weight if they wish, and you can go find somebody else with more room to grow.


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 11, 2010)

Wagimawr said:


> Thank you. At least have the common decency to leave them so they can feel free and unpressured to lose weight if they wish, and you can go find somebody else with more room to grow.



and that's what i'd do.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 11, 2010)

disconnectedsmile said:


> this. this.



I think it's great that you are being honest, and no way am i gonna harsh on you fot it. I think this is one of those times where FA can get trapped into thinking they have to give the right answer and you *have to* say yes even if you don't feel that way. I said yes but i'm not a better FA or better person than you.

That having been said, I think it's important to say that in some cases, weight loss is the only answer for some problems. Somebody with foot pain, joint problems, or mobility problems may just need to carry around less weight in order to regain mobility and lessen pain. I don't like us to go to extremes from "you can be fat and fit" all the way to "Weight loss is never the answer and ANYTHING that is wrong can be fixed while she continues to weigh the same." Taking a hard line that weight loss is never the answer is the same thing as saying it's always the answer.


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## Wagimawr (Feb 11, 2010)

disconnectedsmile said:


> and that's what i'd do.


Would you then say that you're more attracted to weight and weight gain than the person?


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 11, 2010)

Wagimawr said:


> Would you then say that you're more attracted to weight and weight gain than the person?


The weight is one of the things that makes the person who they are. I view the person as the sum total of all their parts. A complete package.


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## Wagimawr (Feb 11, 2010)

And if they've developed feelings for you that have nothing to do with their attraction to you, what then? Sucks to be them?


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 11, 2010)

i understand my beliefs aren't exactly popular, but i don't need to be analyzed and prodded for information like an endangered species in a cage.

i wouldnt help or encourage _anyone_ to lose weight for any reason. i dont need to say anything further.


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## Wagimawr (Feb 11, 2010)

You don't need to, no, but in the interests of me understanding what is or isn't potentially "wrong" with me as a FA (as it relates to others who might not be as crazy about their own fat as I am about it ), I'm asking out of curiosity.


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## Jay West Coast (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't know if my opinion will be popular either.

Basically, I think that as we mature we see more clearly the difference between the sexual dilemma in the relationship and the personal dilemma. Sexually, of course you'd prefer your partner to remain the size you enjoyed most. Beyond that, on a personal level, it'd really suck for your partner to be miserable. 

As relationships deepen, this thing called "love" sometimes happens. In this kind of instance, the "personal" side often takes precedence over the "sexual" part. It might even creep into sexual side, wherein someone's *gasp* non-physical attributes actually turn you on. 

This kind of relationship also has what's called "empathic concern," wherein you feel restless when the person you love is unwell. Your desire to see them well instead becomes a really big deal to you. In this scenario, your personal happiness revolves more around their well-being than it does around their physical characteristics. 

Because you're so enthralled with the well-being of the person, if they needed to lose weight to be well, you'd rather see that than anything else. Ideally you'd have your cake and eat it too, but in certain scenarios fat loss *can* be a gain in the relationship. 

In other words, fat might be the thing that first drew you into the relationship, but it shouldn't be the only thing keeping you there.


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## thatgirl08 (Feb 11, 2010)

If you'd leave someone for a simple change in appearance you're not really in love.


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 11, 2010)

Ok people: The thread is going off course. Calm it down a bit, ok? Thanks.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 11, 2010)

thatgirl08 said:


> If you'd leave someone for a simple change in appearance you're not really in love.



Agreed totally. As Jay said, love is putting somebody else's well being first and not wanting them to experience any hardship or pain. If you don't care more about the other person's well being than your own turn on, it's not love in the slightest.


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## Jigen (Feb 12, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?
> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
> I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?



I haven't helped my ex-girlfriend to lose weight, but I have been supportive, taking her out and making her walk for long distance, to regain strength in her legs. She did a lot of sports before high school but had flat feet (of which she told me when she told me she was going to lose some weight). I thought the best thing for her to regain strength was walking. 
Health comes in first place, no matter what. I prefer to have my partner thin(ner) but healthy than fatter but in bad health.


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## nikola090 (Feb 12, 2010)

never lived a similar situation...never helped my partner to lose or gain..
However think that if someone loves her partner will help her to stay well with her body.

But hope that my future partner will stay well with her curvy body!


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 13, 2010)

At the same time there is an effort to fight stereotypes about fat people (sick, dirty, lazy, etc.) there really needs to be an equal effort to fight stereotypes about weight loss, especially in this community. Just because some people have had negative experiences themselves or seen them in others does not mean that is the whole story. I also think some FAs can transer their own negative thoughts onto others, along the lines of thinking if somebody lost weight it must have been due to social pressure or that the weight will come back no matter what or that the process itself was miserable. I am also tired of this mindset that anyone who loses weight is aiming to be a size zero or does it unhealthfully. Many people who try to lose weight have ideas about increased mobility or health, not being a skeleton. I've known plenty of people who lost weight by buying an exercise bike or cutting out sodas and chips. In short:

- People want to lose weight for a variety of reasons that are quite understandable and should be respected. Their reasons may also be _private_ and guessing them is rude.

- People are not always aiming for an unhealthy or abnormal size.

- People do not always attempt weight loss via starvation, excess exercise to the point of physical harm, or over restrictive diets.

- It's easy to say "diets don't work" but that does not mean "all efforts to lose weight via change in exercise and eating habits dont' work and don't last" People can and do maintain weight losses in healthy manners.

- Most important, people trying to lose weight are not necessarily miserable and don't necessarily despise their bodies. They may just be at a higher weight than they want and are taking reasonable steps to change it.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 13, 2010)

thatgirl08 said:


> If you'd leave someone for a simple change in appearance you're not really in love.



I like nutshell summations.....this is it. Why I always roll my eyes and balk a little about people that say they would leave a marriage/love affair over weight loss or gain.....

That's about _control_...not real love.

As far as answering the OP, I have had partners be supportive of my weight/lifestyle changes when I uptook them as a serious venture. (Not all my diets lasted or were successful...imagine that ).
I supported a partner that wanted to lose weight- he took up exercising with me....and lost 20 lbs very quickly with any other effort than that required(yeah....that was aggravating for me).
I truly doubt he would have been able to keep up the effort without the routine I had set up for myself and expanded to meet his needs, as well. 
I also liked it when this same partner gained weight in times previous to this.....simply because I found him more physically attractive with "meat on his bones". However, if he was unhappy with his weight, it was his decision what HE felt most comfortable with.....I was there to love and support him....not manipulate or control him.


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## name2come (Feb 14, 2010)

I am, as usual, so pleased to see so many FA's thinking with the libido first and foremost. And that goes double for the FA's saying they WOULD help a partner lose weight. Because you're only looking at this through the spectrum of your physical desires, you think the only possible objection would be on the grounds of your sexual needs.

NO.

I wouldn't support a partner trying to lose weight. I know it won't help them, so if I care about them, of course I won't be supportive. Even if I believed every fat hostile thing on the planet, the fact remains that weight loss as a "treatment" fails almost always. To paraphrase Joy Nash, when something works less than 5% of the time, it doesn't work. I can't support something I feel is harmful, unproductive, and unattainable. I feel no guilt in wanting no part in that.


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## LovelyLiz (Feb 14, 2010)

name2come said:


> I wouldn't support a partner trying to lose weight. I know it won't help them, so if I care about them, of course I won't be supportive. Even if I believed every fat hostile thing on the planet, the fact remains that weight loss as a "treatment" fails almost always. To paraphrase Joy Nash, when something works less than 5% of the time, it doesn't work. I can't support something I feel is harmful, unproductive, and unattainable. I feel no guilt in wanting no part in that.



Even though I don't entirely agree, I think you make a fair point. 

Nuanced question though, would you help your partner to undertake a more healthy lifestyle? Like, not with the goal of weight loss in mind, but just to be more active, eat more fresh fruits/vegetables, etc etc etc?


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## merle234 (Feb 14, 2010)

I don't think you're allowed to talk about this.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 14, 2010)

merle234 said:


> I don't think you're allowed to talk about this.



Having a partner want to lose weight is a very common part of being an FA of either gender. This discussion is releveant to the experience of having a fat partner.



> I can't support something I feel is harmful, unproductive, and unattainable. I feel no guilt in wanting no part in that.



Way to oversimplify. Weight loss is not necessarily any of those things.


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## Weirdo890 (Feb 14, 2010)

mergirl said:


> Have you ever helped a partner lose weight?
> If you noticed a partners weight gain was becoming detrimental to their well being, physical or emotional, would you encourage them to lose weight? (Perhaps in the case of a partner having an eating disorder would you encourage them to see a therapist).
> I know there would be a conflict of interests in doing this and i have seen a lot of posts from 'Fas' being upset that their partner is losing weight and i wondered if anyone would actually encourage weight loss if they thought that it would be in thier partners best interests or if any one has had any experience of this?



I would encourage them to do what makes them feel happy, unless it was unhealthy. Then I would step in and discourage said behavior. If it comes to losing weight, I will state my own opinion, along the lines of "I love you the way you are.", but also state that I would support any decision they made, and nothing could change my love for them. If they're unhappy about their body, then I will support their change.


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## TraciJo67 (Feb 15, 2010)

name2come said:


> I wouldn't support a partner trying to lose weight. I know it won't help them, so if I care about them, of course I won't be supportive. Even if I believed every fat hostile thing on the planet, the fact remains that weight loss as a "treatment" fails almost always. To paraphrase Joy Nash, when something works less than 5% of the time, it doesn't work. I can't support something I feel is harmful, unproductive, and unattainable. I feel no guilt in wanting no part in that.


 
I agree with you that certain diets with the overriding goal of weight loss are usually a complete failure, as they are unrealistic over the long term. But certain lifestyle changes which often result in weight loss are not, in my opinion, diets. Would you support someone's desire to make healthy food choices, and to adapt an eating style to encompass learning to eat until satisfied (and not stuffed full), whether or not any weight loss actually happened?


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## Seraphina (Feb 16, 2010)

I think at the end of the day you have to do what makes your partner happy because that's what love is. Sometimes its really difficult especially when you don't think losing weight will make them happier, in lots of cases it doesn't but if it is for their health also then you just have to think their might be a bit less to cuddle but at least you get to cuddle it for longer.

I'm not in a position where my partner is unhealthy because of his weight but sometimes he is unhappy with it or feels like he should be fitter. I support him to do both those things when he wants to because at the end of the day I might like the cute belly, love handles and the rounded behind but if he isn't happy then how can I be happy?

And even if you ultimately fail at a diet it doesn't mean it wasn't worth it at all, but yes most diets fail horribly :happy:


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## StarWitness (Feb 16, 2010)

When my ex decided he wanted to lose weight, I supported him. I wasn't very proactive about it, but he was doing something that made him happy, and I tried to reflect that positivity back to him. It's hard to not support someone you love when they're doing something that makes them proud of themselves.

Then he dumped me.  But that gives me the freedom to sleep with fatter guys, so everybody wins.


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## Webmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

When confronted with his wife's announcement she was going to have WLS, an old friend of mine gulped as he liked her just the way she was, but fully supported her decision. So the WLS took place, he helped her through the recovery just to find himself served with divorce papers as his now much thinner wife had decided she wanted to catch up on lost opportunities and look for someone better than my friend. That was quite a blow for him but he recovered and has now been married for 15 years or so to a SSBBW who likes herself they way she is. The moral of the story? None, really. Things happen.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 16, 2010)

Commonality does not indicate causation.

The twin facts of weight loss and a relationship ending do not mean weight loss cause the breakup.


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 16, 2010)

LoveBHMS said:


> Commonality does not indicate causation.
> 
> The twin facts of weight loss and a relationship ending do not mean weight loss cause the breakup.


it doesn't mean it *didn't* cause the break-up, either.


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## TraciJo67 (Feb 16, 2010)

Webmaster said:


> When confronted with his wife's announcement she was going to have WLS, an old friend of mine gulped as he liked her just the way she was, but fully supported her decision. So the WLS took place, he helped her through the recovery just to find himself served with divorce papers as his now much thinner wife had decided she wanted to catch up on lost opportunities and look for someone better than my friend. That was quite a blow for him but he recovered and has now been married for 15 years or so to a SSBBW who likes herself they way she is. The moral of the story? None, really. Things happen.


 
Unless you were a fly on the wall within that marriage, you can't really know why the divorce took place. Perhaps he wasn't a good husband, and she only just found the strength to leave him? Unfortunately, many fat people do suffer from low self-esteem, and for those who are unhappy with their weight -- losing it can change them, and their perspectives, and all of a sudden they find that things that once were tolerable are now unbearable. I found my own way to that place, not through weight loss, but with the onset of maturity and a gained sense of perspective. Fortunately, my spouse made the journey with me (and he wasn't ever part of the problem in the first place). 

At any rate, seems that things worked out for your friend, after all.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 16, 2010)

disconnectedsmile said:


> it doesn't mean it *didn't* cause the break-up, either.



Any relationship that breaks up over weight loss was going to break up anyway. If you can be split apart by something that superficial your relationship was not very strong to start with.

I hate to see this community just be bizarro world from the 'real world' and think fat is always good, weight loss is always bad, and it's totally reasonable to end a relationship if somebody loses weight.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 16, 2010)

I have to say that I agree about the WLS thing.....she probably had ideas of leaving before the surgery ever took place. It was probably "part of a process" and just one of the ways she saw as "enabling herself" aka cutting dependency upon her spouse. Most people probably do spend a good bit of time making the decision to leave a marriage.......with many underlying factors involved. No one action would be the cause of a total relationship break-down....or that is my perception from my own past relationships anyway.
I usually start "rounding up the horses" myself when I decide it's time for leaving.....and take my time to do so to ensure it is the right decision.

Just my guess: She didn't want to leave him because she lost weight....she might have lost weight because she wanted to leave him.


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## joswitch (Feb 16, 2010)

Deja vu, anyone? Oh look, it's the same old "true love is THIS and anything else is shallow" dogma... *sigh* love is not a policy statement, or a fortune cookie motto... ...I wonder if all the people who say you should support your lover no matter what they want to do: Would you enable them in the choice of 24/7 idleness? Or 365 day drinking? How about taking heroin? There's plenty of evidence that SOME forms/extents of weight loss are, indeed, harmful, sometimes fatal to you... (in contrast to HAES)... Why would you support someone you love in self destruction? ...


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## thatgirl08 (Feb 17, 2010)

Using heroin, binge drinking = eating healthier and exercising more.

I'VE HEARD IT ALL.


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## James (Feb 17, 2010)

I think he said 'in contrast to HAES'... as in he is in full support of HAES. Is that right Jo?


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## thatgirl08 (Feb 17, 2010)

HAES is great. But sometimes weight loss is necessary. & no one on this thread has been advocating extreme dieting or weight loss pills.. everyone's mentioned eating better and exercising more.. so at the very least his argument isn't relevant to this thread.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 17, 2010)

joswitch said:


> Deja vu, anyone? Oh look, it's the same old "true love is THIS and anything else is shallow" dogma... *sigh* love is not a policy statement, or a fortune cookie motto... ...I wonder if all the people who say you should support your lover no matter what they want to do: Would you enable them in the choice of 24/7 idleness? Or 365 day drinking? How about taking heroin? There's plenty of evidence that SOME forms/extents of weight loss are, indeed, harmful, sometimes fatal to you... (in contrast to HAES)... Why would you support someone you love in self destruction? ...



Are you serious? Equating weight loss with self destruction is just overkill. Nobody has said anything about starvation or even surgery (although some people do choose that and are happy they did). Eating veggies and moving more are neither harmful nor fatal. What everyone has said is that they'd support healthy and positive ways to lose weight, nobody said they'd enable anyone to take fucking heroin.


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## name2come (Feb 17, 2010)

thatgirl08 said:


> Sometimes weight loss is necessary.



Which is an utterly useless attitude. I'm sick of tired of this being trotted out as a definitive statement when it posits a world which DOES NOT EXIST.

Weight loss is not achievable in a safe or reliable manner. Ever single person who wants to lose weight tells themselves that THEY are doing it in a healthy manner and its just all of those OTHER people who are on the fad diets.

Every weight loss diet is a fad diet. None of them have been shown to consistently make fat people into thin people. None. Weight loss is just about the least likely outcome of trying to lose weight. Only thing less likely might be actually improving your health, since weight loss hasn't been shown to improve health even among the limited number of people who maintain weight loss for a few years.

For over half a century, the extent of treatment options offered fat patients have been almost universally weight loss focused. Something that during that time has been heavily researched with no progress towards making that treatment effective. I can't look at this and say, "well, i guess some people just need to lose weight". I look at it and I say this system has profoundly failed the health needs of fat people. Telling us to be not-fat people has not worked. The certainty people have over it offers nothing to detract from a record of complete and abject failure. Wanting to lose weight has never been productive. Hopes, dreams, and wishes are no reason to continue pursuing something with a track record of such utter uselessness. Its a tragedy. Why am I supposed to ignore that because some people find fat people unacceptable. Even if just "some" fat people. Even if just themselves. That makes it all the more tragic that they are continually herded down a path that has no productive results to show for itself.

The pursuit of weight loss has not been a constructive one. Rationalizing that everyone else's pursuit was wrong while yours is gonna be right is just rationalizing. Eating healthy food and maintaining moderate activity IS a good thing that HAS shown productive results. What it hasn't shown is to be reliably effective for losing weight. So measuring the success of such activities with weight loss is dangerous and counterproductive. They are good things to do, but not for the purpose of losing weight. That motivation will only make such healthy measures seem like a failure when weight loss goals are not achieved. I cannot support that. Not for a partner, not for myself, not for anyone.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 17, 2010)

^^^

This whole post is just short sighted and insulting. Add that to the fact you were responding to a fat person, whose ideas should be listened to and respected, and you dismissed her out of hand. I just think this is an area where we should mostly leave it to fat people to make their own choices and be supportive rather than tell them they're doomed to failure.

People can and do lose weight. Saying all diets are fad diets is ludicrous. A "diet" is a way of eating. You can have a reduced calorie diet, a low sodium diet, a vegetarian diet, a diet based on increased intake of certain foods or food groups, or even a diet aimed at adding weight.

There are any number of situations where weight loss is necessary. Somebody with foot paind or joint problems may simply need to carry less poundage on their frame. Excess fat, depending on where it's stored may compress internal organs and exacerbate conditions like asthma. Weight can affect mobility--this is simple FACT. Unless you are a physician and treating a particular person and their condition, making sweeping generalizations about what will and won't work is foolish.


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 17, 2010)

name2come said:


> Which is an utterly useless attitude. I'm sick of tired of this being trotted out as a definitive statement when it posits a world which DOES NOT EXIST.
> 
> Weight loss is not achievable in a safe or reliable manner. Ever single person who wants to lose weight tells themselves that THEY are doing it in a healthy manner and its just all of those OTHER people who are on the fad diets.
> 
> ...



wins the thread


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm wondering if either of you realizes how offensive and *self serving* these comments are.

What somebody does with her body is her business and not yours. Unless you are a qualified medical professional treating a particular fat person, you are not capable of saying what they should do or can do. People lose weight all the time and do so healthfully. Saying all human bodies are the same and respond to various treatments the same is just wrong.

But above all, seeing thin male FAs expounding on the horrors of weight loss is just offensive to a degree i can't even articulate. Sitting in judgement of what somebody is capable of or wants or needs to do with her body is horrible; it's more horrible when you seem to have a vested interest in her body staying a way you like. Until you live in a fat person's body and live their life, don't sit in judgement.

I do think FA have the right to talk about dealing with weight loss in a partner. We even have the right to say we don't like it or wish it didn't happen or are less turned on. We don't have the right to judge anyone's choices to lose weight or to criticize them or to toss hyperbole on them along the lines of "no weight loss efforts are safe or effective."


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## SanDiega (Feb 17, 2010)

name2come said:


> Which is an utterly useless attitude. I'm sick of tired of this being trotted out as a definitive statement when it posits a world which DOES NOT EXIST.
> 
> Weight loss is not achievable in a safe or reliable manner. Ever single person who wants to lose weight tells themselves that THEY are doing it in a healthy manner and its just all of those OTHER people who are on the fad diets.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about. There are proven methods for loosing weight.

Any basic nutrition course will teach you that if you spend more calories then you take in, you will loose weight.


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## TraciJo67 (Feb 17, 2010)

name2come said:


> Rationalizing that everyone else's pursuit was wrong while yours is gonna be right is just rationalizing. Eating healthy food and maintaining moderate activity IS a good thing that HAS shown productive results. What it hasn't shown is to be reliably effective for losing weight. So measuring the success of such activities with weight loss is dangerous and counterproductive. They are good things to do, but not for the purpose of losing weight. That motivation will only make such healthy measures seem like a failure when weight loss goals are not achieved. I cannot support that. Not for a partner, not for myself, not for anyone.


 
You know, I get that Dims isn't a place that's ever going to support discussion of or tolerance for dieting with a goal of weight loss. I support the overall concept of HAES, if not the nuts 'n bolts of certain parts of it. Like you, I believe that most diets are a recipe for failure. 

But much of what you've written is ... extreme. And it runs contrary to what medical science suggests. And it seems, at the heart of things, to come from a place that appears rather self-serving. Sincerely, I mean this: I believe that this attitude actually harms size acceptance, because otherwise reasonable people will shut down at what appears to run contrary to common sense, far less established medical fact.

Your body? Your temple. You get to decide what to do with it, and nobody should make us feel that we're less than perfectly fine just as we are. We should not be discriminated against. We should not have to tolerate bigotry from doctors, from employers, from strangers with obnoxiously vocal opinions. We should acknowledge that most diets are inherently harmful, but that it is possible -- if necessary, or even if we simply choose it -- to make healthier food choices, to find some way to incorporate movement into our daily lives. Ignoring scientific fact regarding the possible co-morbidities related to higher weights? Unreasonable, at best.

There are scenarios in which weight loss is necessary to prolong or even sustain one's life. This isn't fat bigotry, this isn't ignorance, this isn't even up for debate. It is fact. I very much hope that you never have to face such a scenario with a loved one. I have, and as a social worker who spent the last year working with critically ill patients, I've seen things that broke my heart. Particularly grueling was a dying man in his early 50's with end-stage CHF who could not get a heart transplant, in large part because of his extreme weight. If you'd given his family the speech that you've given above ... well. I think you can imagine the outcome.


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## name2come (Feb 17, 2010)

SanDiega said:


> What are you talking about. There are proven methods for loosing weight.
> 
> Any basic nutrition course will teach you that if you spend more calories then you take in, you will loose weight.



See, this is what I'm talking about it. The notion of just how simple this all is. Why a basic nutrition course said it. Its just math!

Except, the human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway. Fat bigotry is justified by people who believe exactly what you suggested. That weight loss is the simplest thing in the world. These people feel justified in hating fat people because they presume they just must not have tried or cared to try or known to try. They think if they just keep shouting at us, we'll lose weight since its obviously so simple. Any fat person must either not know any better or not care, just justifying their sense or moral superiority over fat people.

It just doesn't work like that. Nearly every fat person you will ever meet has spent a considerable amount of their life trying to lose weight. In the long run, it never worked. Oh, losing weight they can likely do. Keeping it off is what they can't. Their body adapts and resists. It becomes harder and harder to keep losing weight and then it starts coming back on. For most, more than had been lost to begin with. Blaming these people hasn't worked. Blaming their willpower, their intelligence, their desire is all a cruel lie. They did not fail. Rather, they were failed by a culture of false promises that surrounds the weight loss culture. The promise that weight loss will make them happy. That it will make them healthy. That it is even achievable. This culture persists by turning all blame inward. Fat people deserve better. We've been failed by this mindset, and we deserve better. As a fat person and as an FA, I want no part in this.

There is no moral superiority in weight loss. If it offends people that not everyone will concede to the righteousness of weight loss, that's too bad. Its a culture that has done nothing for fat people, and I refuse to be guilted into any participation in it.


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## SanDiega (Feb 18, 2010)

name2come said:


> See, this is what I'm talking about it. The notion of just how simple this all is. Why a basic nutrition course said it. Its just math!
> 
> Except, the human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway. Fat bigotry is justified by people who believe exactly what you suggested. That weight loss is the simplest thing in the world. These people feel justified in hating fat people because they presume they just must not have tried or cared to try or known to try. They think if they just keep shouting at us, we'll lose weight since its obviously so simple. Any fat person must either not know any better or not care, just justifying their sense or moral superiority over fat people.
> 
> ...



I am not saying weight loss is easy. I certainly know that is is not. I take a bit of offense at the notion that I am somehow justifying bigotry against fat people by suggesting that there is a science behind weight gain and weight loss. I am just saying that there is a science to how fat comes and goes on our bodies. It is biology. 

Fad diets will almost always fail, becuase mother nature simply states that each pound of fat represents roughly 3500 calories not burned, and if we burn those calories, the fat will disapear. When we consume 3500 calories and do not use them, they become body fat. It really is that simple. How quickly and easily a certain individual uses up calories is different from person to person.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 18, 2010)

> Except, the human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway.



True, but also true that some people can and do lose weight and do so in a healthful manner and also if every human body works differently it's no more ok to say that everyone can't lose weight than it is to say that everyone can.



> There is no moral superiority in weight loss. If it offends people that not everyone will concede to the righteousness of weight loss, that's too bad. Its a culture that has done nothing for fat people, and I refuse to be guilted into any participation in it.



Who's talking about moral superiority? Nobody. The OP asked about mental and physical health both of which can be affected by weight. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Nobody is talking about righteousness or saying it's ok to tell somebody to lose weight or to suggest how to do it, but if somebody _wants to_ lose weight i personally think you can and should be supportive. Not 'righteous' but supportive. Suggesting something is impossible, that they are doomed to failure, or suggesting their reasons for weight loss are not acceptale are all really disrespectful and not appropriate.

I have to duck out of this thread. It really feels just wrong to have discussions about what fat people can and can't do. These discussions should be had by fat people themselves, not FAs who are always going to come off looking as if their attitudes are self serving.


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## desertcheeseman (Feb 18, 2010)

name2come said:


> ...The human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway. Fat bigotry is justified by people who believe exactly what you suggested. That weight loss is the simplest thing in the world...



Tell me about it. I'm trying to lose weight, and after several months of losing about 2 pounds a week, I've plateaued at about 250. But my dad keeps asking me why I am not "pulling double digits" like the men on The Biggest Loser. I try explaining to him that not only do they have much more weight to lose than I do, they work out 6 hours a day, live on a calorie-restricted diet, and have constant medical supervision to protect them in case they exert their way into a heart attack. It's not a lifestyle I'd choose for anybody. But he thinks I can lose heroic amounts of weight by pure willpower alone... whatever. :blush:


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## Wagimawr (Feb 18, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> There are scenarios in which weight loss is necessary to prolong or even sustain one's life. This isn't fat bigotry, this isn't ignorance, this isn't even up for debate. It is fact.


I believe that this is the point of this thread, discussing such situations.


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## James (Feb 18, 2010)

Wagimawr said:


> I believe that this is the point of this thread, discussing such situations.



Yep. I think that this is probably right.

Its interesting to see some the dynamics of the wider fatosphere play out in this thread... examined from an FA perspective as opposed to the the way this has been discussed on shapely prose or, more notably, big fat blog. I don't think that there should be a two-tier size acceptance movement but I do think that there are, loosely speaking, two tiers of fatness whereby the health of fat people of a lower weight is far more connected to lifestyle than size. Conversely, the category of fat people that are (again loosely) above this weight, whose health outcomes become limited by size as much as/more than lifestyle. 

The connection between fatness and health has been a subject of a lot of personal research and I have definitely come to a lot of the same conclusions that much of the rest of the fatosphere... and the size acceptance movement... have come to regarding weight loss and health. i.e the lifestyle change leads to the positive health improvements rather than the weight loss. Nothing shows this more clearly than the liposuction vs HAES study whereby the long-term health of two cohorts of subjects was compared. The first group all had 30lbs of fat removed through lipo and the other group were put on a HAES-lifestyle regimen. The second group lost about 5lbs on average over the test period, but their health markers all improved dramatically. The key thing about this study was that the first group showed no changes to any health markers. This information is only one of many non-industry studies that show, again and again, that weight and (physical) health are relatively independent factors. It is only once people get into the >BMI 40 range that a statistically significant correlation becomes evident (albeit not a dramatic correlation). 

Of course, I am only talking about the physical side to health. The mental side is mostly a different matter but it can certainly overlap into the domain of physical health considerations too. I think that it is this side to situations of weight loss that I can support as a friend or a partner... even if I've done the medical research and know that (for small/mid - size BBWs at least) the publically accepted risks to physical health are wildly overstated/ intentionally falsified.


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## Mini (Feb 18, 2010)

Threads like this remind me that critical thinking is a skill that's damn near extinct. I blame the parents.


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## Tooz (Feb 18, 2010)

Y'know there are some people out there who think if you eat a balanced diet and are active your body will settle where it's meant to.


SHOCK and AWE


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## wrestlingguy (Feb 18, 2010)

I would help my partner and support her at doing whatever she felt she wanted or needed to do.

That isn't some co-dependent bullshit, that is coming from someone who feels that it's simply what partner's do. Now, as long as their needs don't conflict with my needs or moral code, then why not support them?

I don't have a *need* to maintain or grow my partner. I have a *NEED* to keep her happy and healthy, so she will:

1. Remain with me her entire life (or mine)
2. Maintain a quality of life consitent with how she wants to live.

Key word here people is PARTNER. This is not someone who's a one night stand, or someone you fantasize about on the net. Add emotion to the equation, and you might just end up agreeing with me.


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@lovesBHM - I make the comparison between other self-destructive pursuits and wildly popular sub 500cal-a-day weight loss schemes like Lighter Life... That have been found by sober medical pros like y'know -CORONERS - to have killed people... And caused other serious damage... Similarly the roll call of suffering and ill health CAUSED by WLS is vast and growing daily... I would NOT support a partner in pursuing such a damaging course of action...


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@sandiega - no it's not that simple... Go have a dig on the main board for the thread where I show a break down of the energy balance systems of the human body and how they adapt to caloric reduction...


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 18, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Y'know there are some people out there who think if you eat a balanced diet and are active your body will settle where it's meant to.
> 
> 
> SHOCK and AWE



That's what HAES is. I think a lot people seem to forget that.


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 18, 2010)

SanDiega said:


> I am not saying weight loss is easy. I certainly know that is is not. I take a bit of offense at the notion that I am somehow justifying bigotry against fat people by suggesting that there is a science behind weight gain and weight loss. I am just saying that there is a science to how fat comes and goes on our bodies. It is biology.
> 
> Fad diets will almost always fail, becuase mother nature simply states that each pound of fat represents roughly 3500 calories not burned, and if we burn those calories, the fat will disapear. When we consume 3500 calories and do not use them, they become body fat. It really is that simple. How quickly and easily a certain individual uses up calories is different from person to person.



It really isn't that simple at all. Your body is constantly burning calories to do everything from maintaining body temperature, regulating your breathing, to making your hair and nails grow. That's a complex number in itself. Daily metabolism can be harmed by even the smallest things too, which includes poor diet practices that can accumulate.

That being said: I know certain changes in "Diet" can breed weight loss. But it's not as simple as "In" and "Out." If that were the case, then I would have lost weight in basic training (Which I lost none, despite working out everyday and eating at the very most per day five out of six weeks: 1500 calories). My waist got smaller (29 for a few days lol), but I was 163 when I began, and 163 when I left. 

I personally am not really picking either extreme though. I think HAES works for a whole lot more people than it's given credit for, but I don't think weight loss is never the answer either.


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@james - good post. For the record: I support and would always support a partner pursuing HAES, eating better food, moving more, building strength and mobility, pursuing actual health as a goal... ....I'd also support a partner trying to lose 10 - 15% or so of body weight, i.e. 20lbs to 50lbs say... as part of their health drive (evidence exists that loss of 20% or more of adult body mass REDUCES life expectancy) I'd particularly support such efforts to lose where diabetes control was an issue... Diabetes being THE serious disease with the strongest evidence of some correlation to high weight, and there's evidence that small to moderate weight loss can really help blood sugar control/eliminate the very damaging symptoms of diabetes... I would NOT support a partner in extreme, rapid weight loss by dangerous methods. And yes, it's always your own choice what you do with your body, but it's other people's choice whether or not they feel able or right (or not) in supporting your choice...


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@thatgirl08 - not so long ago the dogma on true love was "love me as you find me" = all good... Lately, the dogma seems to have changed to "love me as what/whoever I choose to turn myself into, no matter how extreme" = not so cool...


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## Tooz (Feb 18, 2010)

Jon Blaze said:


> That's what HAES is. I think a lot people seem to forget that.



Yuh, I am a huge (lol) advocate of HAES. It is seriously the only way to go, in my opinion.
......i say this as i am eating pizza and drinking soda.

WHATEVAH


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## James (Feb 18, 2010)

joswitch said:


> ... Diabetes being THE serious disease with the strongest evidence of some correlation to high weight, and there's evidence that small to moderate weight loss can really help blood sugar control/eliminate the very damaging symptoms of diabetes...



True. I wonder about the paucity of evidence linking correlation with weight loss. What I mean is that the medical assumption is that the weight loss (as opposed to the lifestyle change itself that brought about the weight loss) is the reason for the improvement. Until that correlation is shown to be causative, prescribing weight loss (via pills or lipsuction for instance) _might_ be just as ineffective as telling a smoker with yellow teeth that dental whitening is an appropriate treatment for the prevention of lung cancer because the two things are correlated...if you see what I mean?


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 18, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @lovesBHM - I make the comparison between other self-destructive pursuits and wildly popular sub 500cal-a-day weight loss schemes like Lighter Life... That have been found by sober medical pros like y'know -CORONERS - to have killed people... And caused other serious damage... Similarly the roll call of suffering and ill health CAUSED by WLS is vast and growing daily... I would NOT support a partner in pursuing such a damaging course of action...



What a ridiculous post.

You're saying you equate "weight loss" with a sub 500 calorie per day diet? So that is what you had in mind and were arguing against knowing full well that nobody on this board was thinking in those terms. Even the VLCD (very low calorie diets) that are written up in medical journals and the mainstream media are more than twice that, typically between 1000 and 1200 calories per day. As you no doubt know there is a world of difference between supporting somebody in healthful weight loss endeavors like eating more vegetables and exercising and eating less than 500 calories per day. When you lump the two together you just come off as reactionary and over the top.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 18, 2010)

Let's also not forget that it helps to improve hyper-tension. Exercising took me off one of my medications. I asked my doctor how weight affects it. 
She said that it is medical fact, that for those that DO have hypertension (such as myself), I can lower my bp reading a point for each 5 lbs I lose.....or increase it the same way. 
She agreed with me that not all fat people have BP problems.....that there are people that weigh more than myself that don't have my health issues, but I have the heredity.....and my weight affects my health. 
I saw my BP increase sharply when my weight rose....so much I had to start taking a calcium blocker daily, along with my diuretic. I started walking again....and they cut my med in half. I kept walking and started losing some weight.....and they took me off the calcium blocker. 
I had a 30 lb weight loss last check up- and I was told I have the BP of a teenager. 

It's different for each person.......I don't speak in absolutes about other people's health issues. I have to wonder why others think they can?

Oh and that weight loss? It didn't come from 500 calories a day- it came from a weight loss plan that let me eat a lot....but encouraged different food choices.
Come on.....don't we all have common sense to know that eating an apple is better than greasy, salty chips? That's not "dieting" but rather a lifestyle type change. 
It's holding myself to the change that is my problem. I don't blame a "diet" for a lot of my weight....some of it does come from my own personal food choices/preferences.
(and yeah....I will jump slightly to the other direction and say that a lot of my quicky, too fast weight loss desires/actions of the past have landed my metabolism at a slower rate, too)


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 18, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Yuh, I am a huge (lol) advocate of HAES. It is seriously the only way to go, in my opinion.
> ......i say this as i am eating pizza and drinking soda.
> 
> WHATEVAH



A - And you also walked a mile to and from the parking lot in college for what was it? Four years? 

B- Well what works for some doesn't work for others (1), and I'm sure it's not a daily occurrence. And even if it was, HAES teaches another thing: When to know you should stop. If you start getting sick, then you know to stop.

And for pete sake: There's nothing wrong with "Cheating" (Yes I hate that term lol) occasionally. I honestly think 90% of the time, trying to eliminate something from your life is 90 times harder if you try to just one day get rid of it. I gave up soda by progressively drinking less. I didn't decide one day that I would just stop after drinking it since I was like six.  I have it on rare occasions (Once or twice a year), but I can easily resist it if it's in my face. Alcohol on the other hand? Never liked it. lol


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@james - yes I do see what you mean (the liposuction group effectively acts as a control) and I wish I could recall more detail of the studies I've read on the diabetes link and the hypothesised links between insulin production/resistance and adipose tissue... I think Miss Vickie might be a good go-to person for references on this, due to both her personal and professional experience... .... Speaking of smoking - SO many people smoke to "keep their weight down" in UK - especially young women... One of my ex's was a smoker when we met, she stopped for years while we were together, partly I think cos of the whole kissing thing... After we split her so-called friends encouraged her to start again... And she did...   smoking killed my Nan and my Mum's fella too... So, yeah I don't support that weight loss "plan", oddly enough...


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 18, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @james - yes I do see what you mean (the liposuction group effectively acts as a control) and I wish I could recall more detail of the studies I've read on the diabetes link and the hypothesised links between insulin production/resistance and adipose tissue... I think Miss Vickie might be a good go-to person for references on this, due to both her personal and professional experience... .... Speaking of smoking - SO many people smoke to "keep their weight down" in UK - especially young women... One of my ex's was a smoker when we met, she stopped for years while we were together, partly I think cos of the whole kissing thing... After we split her so-called friends encouraged her to start again... And she did...   smoking killed my Nan and my Mum's fella too... So, yeah I don't support that weight loss "plan", oddly enough...



Personally I think weighing more is a much healthier life style choice than smoking. Smoking isn't good for anyone's health.
Sounds like the smoking is being used the same way as "fad dieting"


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@GEF - what and how you brought your BP down and reduced your dependence on medication is EXACTLY what I'd support my partner doing... (and YAY! for your improved health, btw) ... Sadly, I've seen lots of otherwise sane, smart people pursue crazy, dangerous methods in the name of weight loss... The hysteria surrounding fat in society at large seems to suspend folk's common sense and replace it with "no matter how unhealthy this plan if i get less fat that=better"... Sad times...


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

@GEF - yes! Exactly! Smoking is the first "diet" of choice for a ridiculous number of people in UK and moreso in Europe...


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 18, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @GEF - what and how you brought your BP down and reduced your dependence on medication is EXACTLY what I'd support my partner doing... (and YAY! for your improved health, btw) ... Sadly, I've seen lots of otherwise sane, smart people pursue crazy, dangerous methods in the name of weight loss... The hysteria surrounding fat in society at large seems to suspend folk's common sense and replace it with "no matter how unhealthy this plan if i get less fat that=better"... Sad times...



Thank you 

I think that's how most people feel. Who would want to see their partner starve themselves unnecessarily? Exercising and healthier food choices sometimes DO lead to weight loss.....with the idea of gained health....not fitting into some slim ideal. 

Odd thing is....no matter how fat phobic our society is, it also seems that people also feel entitled to tell others they are "too thin" as well. I've seen people lose large amounts of weight and have family or friends tell them "enough is enough" etc. 
My general point being that I try not to tell others what they should weigh.....a lot of my own food issues/problem/eating disorder has arisen from too many people attempting to "control" me and my body....or at least that is how it has always sounded to my ears.....and how my mind reacts to so much "helpful advice".


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 18, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @GEF - yes! Exactly! Smoking is the first "diet" of choice for a ridiculous number of people in UK and moreso in Europe...




That's just sheer idiocy and hysteria over weight.......not a person attempting to actually BE healthy- or just make some healthier lifestyle choices.


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## Tooz (Feb 18, 2010)

Jon Blaze said:


> A - And you also walked a mile to and from the parking lot in college for what was it? Four years?
> 
> B- Well what works for some doesn't work for others (1), and I'm sure it's not a daily occurrence. And even if it was, HAES teaches another thing: When to know you should stop. If you start getting sick, then you know to stop.
> 
> And for pete sake: There's nothing wrong with "Cheating" (Yes I hate that term lol) occasionally. I honestly think 90% of the time, trying to eliminate something from your life is 90 times harder if you try to just one day get rid of it. I gave up soda by progressively drinking less. I didn't decide one day that I would just stop after drinking it since I was like six.  I have it on rare occasions (Once or twice a year), but I can easily resist it if it's in my face. Alcohol on the other hand? Never liked it. lol



I actually follow intuitive eating. Do I want cake? I eat cake. Do I want grilled chicken breast with veggie medley? I eat grilled chicken breast with veggie medley. I wanted pizza, so I ate pizza.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Feb 18, 2010)

Tooz said:


> I actually follow intuitive eating. Do I want cake? I eat cake. Do I want grilled chicken breast with veggie medley? I eat grilled chicken breast with veggie medley. I wanted pizza, so I ate pizza.



This is what I strive for in my life....still don't think I have quite made it there yet :doh: :bow:


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## thatgirl08 (Feb 18, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> You know, I get that Dims isn't a place that's ever going to support discussion of or tolerance for dieting with a goal of weight loss. I support the overall concept of HAES, if not the nuts 'n bolts of certain parts of it. Like you, I believe that most diets are a recipe for failure.
> 
> But much of what you've written is ... extreme. And it runs contrary to what medical science suggests. And it seems, at the heart of things, to come from a place that appears rather self-serving. Sincerely, I mean this: I believe that this attitude actually harms size acceptance, because otherwise reasonable people will shut down at what appears to run contrary to common sense, far less established medical fact.
> 
> ...



Thank you. This post is exactly what I wanted to write but couldn't verbalize.

The best part though is that it doesn't matter because it's my body.. my life.. and _thank god_ I have the self respect to realize that I can make my own choices and that I know myself and what I care about well enough to never get involved with someone who is going to try to control me like that.


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## exile in thighville (Feb 18, 2010)

some people need to lose weight

other people need to be permabanned from fa forums


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 18, 2010)

thatgirl08 said:


> Thank you. This post is exactly what I wanted to write but couldn't verbalize.
> *
> The best part though is that it doesn't matter because it's my body.. my life.. and thank god I have the self respect to realize that I can make my own choices and that I know myself and what I care about well enough to never get involved with someone who is going to try to control me like that.*



Yea. Regardless of either side, that's something to be respected by both parties.


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## Jon Blaze (Feb 18, 2010)

Tooz said:


> I actually follow intuitive eating. Do I want cake? I eat cake. Do I want grilled chicken breast with veggie medley? I eat grilled chicken breast with veggie medley. I wanted pizza, so I ate pizza.



I kind of guide my choices at times, but generally they're beneficial things (For me) anyway.


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## joswitch (Feb 18, 2010)

There is a difference between "I will not / cannot support you in your choosing to do X" and being controlling towards someone.


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## exile in thighville (Feb 18, 2010)

hey joswitch, in both of those instances there's no reason to continue the relationship


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## exile in thighville (Feb 18, 2010)

and make no mistake, people use ultimatums like that to control their partner


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## joswitch (Feb 19, 2010)

@exile - Just because people use all kindsa shit to control each other does not mean that any discussion of that shit MUST be inherently controlling... ...It's perfectly possible to state where you're at on issue X, and what your limits might be without that being controlling... I'd go further and say - I'd want to know if my choice X was going to maybe lose me my partner, cos I'd at least have the chance to weigh up what was most important to me, knowing the "cost" of that choice... (2 and a half years ago when I radically changed my lifestyle by moving to live on a boat on the river, my gf of 3 years never bothered to tell me that'd be a deal breaker... Until it was too late. Gutted.) And yeah, sometimes if your differences over issue X are too painful and you can't find a way to both be happy together at the same time, then it's best to split up... You can still treat each other with respect, it doesn't have to be a load of manipulative BS...


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## exile in thighville (Feb 19, 2010)

give me a scenario in which someone doesn't support their partner losing weight (for non-health reasons) and they stay happily, healthily together


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## kayrae (Feb 19, 2010)

Bolded for truth. I've talked to so many women who stay in horrible relationships because they didn't have a clear sense of self-worth, actually believing that they even deserve to be disrespected.



TraciJo67 said:


> Unless you were a fly on the wall within that marriage, you can't really know why the divorce took place. Perhaps he wasn't a good husband, and she only just found the strength to leave him? *Unfortunately, many fat people do suffer from low self-esteem, and for those who are unhappy with their weight -- losing it can change them, and their perspectives, and all of a sudden they find that things that once were tolerable are now unbearable.* I found my own way to that place, not through weight loss, but with the onset of maturity and a gained sense of perspective. Fortunately, my spouse made the journey with me (and he wasn't ever part of the problem in the first place).
> 
> At any rate, seems that things worked out for your friend, after all.


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## joswitch (Feb 19, 2010)

@exile - sorry, was that directed at me? Cos if so, that "woosh" noise passing over your head? That was my point. .... ...I'm not saying that being respectfully honest about your feelings with each other will always lead to happyeverafter together... It may lead to the relationship ending... But better that than make each other UNhappy together forever.


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## superodalisque (Feb 19, 2010)

i would think it would be important for a person to feel supported in thier goals by the person who is supposed to love them. if they aren't supportive then what is the realtionship for--unless its not really a relationship?


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## joswitch (Feb 19, 2010)

@superO - so what you're saying is the sole point of a relationship is to have a "support system"/resident cheerleader???


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## kayrae (Feb 19, 2010)

you're arguing semantics. she didn't say it was the end-all and be-all of a relationship. But it's definitely an important one.


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## marlowegarp (Feb 19, 2010)

I wish I had Tooz's power of intuitive eating. If I followed what my body told me, my diet would basically consist of Manwiches, Ben and Jerry's, and Taco Bell. On one level, I always want shit like that. However, on another (less visible) level, I appreciate the salads I trick myself into eating. Which may mean on some level that's what I want. Woah.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 20, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @superO - so what you're saying is the sole point of a relationship is to have a "support system"/resident cheerleader???



The sole point? no. But a big part of it? Yes. How often do relationships end or having problems because one partner did not feel loved or supported or felt as if s/he had to go through problems alone.

But even if the point of a relationship is sex and as such it should be a woman's aim to be as fat as possible whatever the risks to her emotional or physical health, you _still_ don't have the right to tell somebody what to do with her body. Looking at your avatar, you show yourself engaging in sports and an active lifestyle. What if a woman wanted the same thing for herself but was hindered by her weight? You apparently would just shrug that off because hey it's not really your job to be a support system or care about anything but her being sexually appealing to you.


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## Tooz (Feb 20, 2010)

marlowegarp said:


> I wish I had Tooz's power of intuitive eating. If I followed what my body told me, my diet would basically consist of Manwiches, Ben and Jerry's, and Taco Bell. On one level, I always want shit like that. However, on another (less visible) level, I appreciate the salads I trick myself into eating. Which may mean on some level that's what I want. Woah.



Well, honestly, you will sort of "binge" for a while on junk, but it usually evens out.  I do still eat a lot of junk though, lol.


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## joswitch (Feb 20, 2010)

@kayrae and LovesBHMs - gee, thanks for chiming in... BUT! my question (which is not an 'arguement') was directed at superO, and I'm confident that she is more than capable of answering it... IF she chooses... And LovesBHM - try not to assume a whole pile of whatever about me... There's a whole world of love and human interaction between the poles of 'only a support system' and 'only sex'... Also, if you'd read my posts even in this. thread. you'd see I'm pro excercise/activity... And I'm miles away from the 'as fat as possible no matter what' attitude... Seriously, you looked at my pics!! and assumed a whole fictional person! FFS! If you demonise everyone that you have even the slightest point of disagreement with - you can never hope to understand anyone.


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## joswitch (Feb 20, 2010)

@lovesBHMS - but while we're at it... My ex-who-lost-loads did cite (early on) ease of excercise/ambition to do various activities as one of her motives... I empathised with that for sure... By the time she'd lost 30lbs she was more than able to keep up with hiking 3miles easily, without getting breathless, in under 50mins... And I was cool at that point... BUT there were 70 more lbs she wanted to lose... For other reasons... Top of which was - to fit in with society and NOT. be. fat. ... And that was her choice. My being FA is not my choice. I would've changed it if I could. My being worried (to the point of ulcers. Ever had an ulcer? Bloody painful.) for the danger she put herself in with the extreme 450cal-a-day for a year diet she was on (people have DIED on it!) was straight out of love for her. I didn't want to change that. Seeing that she could not be happy fat and I couldn't stop being an FA nor stop caring about her fucking herself up, led me to end it, cos neither of us could see hope of being happy together. Sad times. But what else could have been done? Nothing. We weren't compatible. And we both knew that going in. But you takes your choice and pays the price... in case you are missing the point - just cos you don't support every mad thing your other half does doesn't mean you don't love them. And just cos you split with someone doesn't mean you don't love them either. Sometimes its the best thing, sometimes the only thing to be done. It's not viable to stay in a painful, hopeless situation. Even if splitting up is painful at least it offers a new start for both of you.


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## joswitch (Feb 20, 2010)

@LovesBHMS - I just went back thro' the thread - you're wildly underestimating the prevalence and influence of sub 500cal VLCDs and WLS... Not to mention the "smoking diet"... My point is that, regardless of what the 12 posters in this thread think, for millions of people out there the belief is that ANYthing is better/healthier than being fat... And these extreme, damaging and dangerous weight loss methods are very, very popular... And they make some fuckers somewhere very fucking rich... And shockingly enough, I'm against that. Also... go back and read my responses to James on p3 and GEF on p4 to get an idea of how far off you are in your caricature of me.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 20, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @LovesBHMS - I just went back thro' the thread - you're wildly underestimating the prevalence and influence of sub 500cal VLCDs and WLS... Not to mention the "smoking diet"... My point is that, regardless of what the 12 posters in this thread think, for millions of people out there the belief is that ANYthing is better/healthier than being fat... And these extreme, damaging and dangerous weight loss methods are very, very popular... And they make some fuckers somewhere very fucking rich... And shockingly enough, I'm against that. Also... go back and read my responses to James on p3 and GEF on p4 to get an idea of how far off you are in your caricature of me.



*eyeroll*

The title of this thread is "Would you help a partner lose weight" not "Would you support anything somebody did to lose weight even if it gave them lung cancer". Not one single person favors smoking. There is a long long way between "i want to lose weight" and "Anything is better and healthier than fat."



> My ex-who-lost-loads did cite (early on) ease of excercise/ambition to do various activities as one of her motives... I empathised with that for sure... By the time she'd lost 30lbs she was more than able to keep up with hiking 3miles easily, without getting breathless, in under 50mins... And I was cool at that point...



So basically she should have stopped because you were 'cool' with it? And yeah i read your responses to GEF and James, and they come across as saying it's ok with you (thanks!) if somebody loses weight as long as they are still fat. I think your answers are simply hiding behind "health", as in "well of course i support health", because what kind of a monster doesn't? But you quit being supportive once you think they've lost enough.


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## ZainTheInsane (Feb 20, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> Unless you were a fly on the wall within that marriage, you can't really know why the divorce took place. Perhaps he wasn't a good husband, and she only just found the strength to leave him? Unfortunately, many fat people do suffer from low self-esteem, and for those who are unhappy with their weight -- losing it can change them, and their perspectives, and all of a sudden they find that things that once were tolerable are now unbearable. I found my own way to that place, not through weight loss, but with the onset of maturity and a gained sense of perspective. Fortunately, my spouse made the journey with me (and he wasn't ever part of the problem in the first place).
> 
> At any rate, seems that things worked out for your friend, after all.



I love how the husband/male automatically gets the bad rep in this situation. She could have been a complete bitch. And sure, he could have been a complete tool. Or they both could have been good people who were just bad for one another. But to assume that it was automatically a fault of the husband is just as bad as automatically assuming the woman was a bitch. I HATE when people blame the guy without thinking.


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## ZainTheInsane (Feb 20, 2010)

Tooz said:


> Y'know there are some people out there who think if you eat a balanced diet and are active your body will settle where it's meant to.
> 
> 
> SHOCK and AWE



I support this statement, if not the shock and awe...


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## joswitch (Feb 20, 2010)

@LovesBHMs - how I felt about it was never something I expected to change my gfs decisions or actions... And it didn't. How I feel about something does affect what I'll support/can cope with... Hence "not cool with it" = in this case "I cannot deal". People can do what they like with their bodies. Thats their right. It's MY right not to support shit i think is harmful/wrong and/or that fucks me up to be around/involved with. ..... Aaaand there you go again making assumptions based on what YOU imagine I'm thinking, rather than dealing with what I actually say. You are not a telepath. The straw man you are beating up is not me. .... Once more, to finish, with feeling - the crazy extreme shit i've been talking about here is standard diet practice for millions. Including my now ex. That's the REALITY of what lots of people put themselves through to become thin(ner). I'm not sorry that I've sullied your pristine theoretical debate with actual real life experience. ... By the way did your account get hacked or what? It's like you've been assimilated by the pod people...


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## wrestlingguy (Feb 20, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @LovesBHMs - how I felt about it was never something I expected to change my gfs decisions or actions... And it didn't. How I feel about something does affect what I'll support/can cope with... Hence "not cool with it" = in this case "I cannot deal". People can do what they like with their bodies. Thats their right. It's MY right not to support shit i think is harmful/wrong and/or that fucks me up to be around/involved with. ..... Aaaand there you go again making assumptions based on what YOU imagine I'm thinking, rather than dealing with what I actually say. You are not a telepath. The straw man you are beating up is not me. .... Once more, to finish, with feeling - the crazy extreme shit i've been talking about here is standard diet practice for millions. Including my now ex. That's the REALITY of what lots of people put themselves through to become thin(ner). *I'm not sorry that I've sullied your pristine theoretical debate with actual real life experience*. ... By the way did your account get hacked or what? It's like you've been assimilated by the pod people...




@joswitch. Just wondering how you seem certain that Loves is making statements based on rhetorical debate. How do you know she doesn't speak from real life experience?

I don't know the answer to that either, just wondering if you had some inside info that I wasn't given access to.


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 21, 2010)

wrestlingguy said:


> @joswitch. Just wondering how you seem certain that Loves is making statements based on rhetorical debate. How do you know she doesn't speak from real life experience?
> 
> I don't know the answer to that either, just wondering if you had some inside info that I wasn't given access to.



Right. My real life experience is i honestly do not know a single person who took up smoking to lose weight. I do know one person who had surgery and she made that choice as an adult, with a surgeon. She exercised and took supplements post surgery and was very satisfied with the results and the positve effect on her life. Others i know cut back on food and/or bought an exercise bike or went to the gym or started training for a 10K or took up a new sport.

Joswitch it seems to me you are just resentful of your ex for losing weight for her job and not simply trashing her career and education so she could stay fat.


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## joswitch (Feb 21, 2010)

@wrestlinguy - lovesBHM was blasting me because I had not slavishly followed previous posts in the thread which had all spoken in theoretical terms about sensible eating etc... Only right now has she chosen to talk about her experiences...


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## joswitch (Feb 21, 2010)

@lovesBHM - ahahaha! Awesome! Thank you for proof positive that you are in fact arguing not with me but an imaginary person in. your. head. I NEVER said that my ex's weight loss was ANYTHING at all to do with her job or her education!! In fact my ex ALREADY got her degree and her (pretty good, with opportunities for promotion) job WHILST she was.... !drumroll! .... FAT! And despite all the negative, abusive BS from her mother about how she could never succeed cos she was fat... I do not resent my ex, she's a lovely person, we're still good friends and I'm glad for her that things seem to be going really well for her now. .... .... As for you - so far, loveBHMs you have called me resentful, a liar and a monster. You and I are done talking.


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## Ruby Ripples (Feb 21, 2010)

ZainTheInsane said:


> I love how the husband/male automatically gets the bad rep in this situation. She could have been a complete bitch. And sure, he could have been a complete tool. Or they both could have been good people who were just bad for one another. But to assume that it was automatically a fault of the husband is just as bad as automatically assuming the woman was a bitch. I HATE when people blame the guy without thinking.



She never once said what you just did. You seriously need to re-read that, it has just said a whole lot about you though.


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## MrRabbit (Feb 24, 2010)

thatgirl08 said:


> If you'd leave someone for a simple change in appearance you're not really in love.


And what if the simple change is a drastic change? Most people agree that physical attraction is an important aspect in a relationship - though it definitely should not be the only thing. What if this physical attraction fades away?

I wish I could say that physical attraction doesn't matter, but if that were the case, I would probably not be here in the first place.


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## disconnectedsmile (Feb 24, 2010)

MrRabbit said:


> And what if the simple change is a drastic change? Most people agree that physical attraction is an important aspect in a relationship - though it definitely should not be the only thing. What if this physical attraction fades away?
> 
> I wish I could say that physical attraction doesn't matter, but if that were the case, I would probably not be here in the first place.



speaking for myself, as i said before...


disconnectedsmile said:


> The weight is one of the things that makes the person who they are. I view the person as the sum total of all their parts. A complete package.


take away any part of that package, and i feel as though that person isn't 100% themselves.

(disclaimer: i'm speaking for _myself_, and *not* for all FAs.)


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## calauria (Feb 24, 2010)

Hmmmm....I still believe it is what we eat, instead of the fat that effects us, especially those of us with high blood pressure, diabetes, etc....My niece is 5'5" 100-110 lbs. and has high blood pressure. Her diet consists of high sodium, high sugar, mainly junk food and she exercise none. She is way out of shape. She is way out of breath when she only walks fast. She has to take blood pressure med..but it really is not working. I stated that if she changed how she ate and exercise, it would help a lot, maybe she would not need meds. at all, but no, she states she can't give up her way of eating.

But in regards of fat and mobility and or comfort. Sometimes, being fat is so damned uncomfortable, especially when you are becoming so large you are becoming immobile. To me, that's a problem! What kind of quality of life are you gonna have if you can barely move around?

That is why I believe that our nation needs to put more emphasis on HAES. The majority of us no matter what size we are do not know how to eat properly. We are not really thoroughly taught, plus a lot of us are not thoroughly taught to enjoy various types of physical activities, either.


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## calauria (Feb 24, 2010)

disconnectedsmile said:


> speaking for myself, as i said before...
> 
> take away any part of that package, and i feel as though that person isn't 100% themselves.
> 
> (disclaimer: i'm speaking for _myself_, and *not* for all FAs.)



Yeah, it depends on how the partner adapts to the other partners change. This can be said about any type change a person undergoes. Some couples grow, change and adapt together and some just grow apart....
I don't feel that if one partner cannot adapt to the changes of the other that that necessarily means that they don't have a deep and strong love for their partner. It's just part of life, relationships are not guaranteed to lasts. Some just run their course. People change, people grow, etc..etc...


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## LovelyLiz (Feb 25, 2010)

calauria said:


> People change, people grow, etc..etc...



Or in this case, people shrink...


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## superodalisque (Feb 25, 2010)

joswitch said:


> @superO - so what you're saying is the sole point of a relationship is to have a "support system"/resident cheerleader???



no i didn't say it was the sole and only reason to have a relationship but its a major component of why people are together at all. if its just for sex you can find that on any street corner. people also shouldn't be together for co-dependence sake as in " i am fat and only an FA will want me so i'll setle for that until i get thin and then find someone else". if you don't have your partner's support it _could_ be a sole reason for not having a relationship at all. if someone does not support your goals and your development as you see fit then they can't possibly meet your emotional needs. the person who loves you should not be your opponent in life. in a relationship people need to feel safe secure and relaxed. they can't be walking on egg shells every time they need to make a life decision about something that would make things better for themselves personally. if i were a musician for instance and that was an important part of my happiness and my partner didn't want me to do it that would be a reason to rethink the entire relationship.

your partner doesn't have to believe in everything you do but you can't be at cross purposes when it comes to major parts of your happiness. life is too short. if a guy adores a fat woman and she does not want to be fat thats a serious reason not to have the relationship. everyone needs to be comfortable pursuing thier happiness and they shouldn't have to worry if thier partner is going to make them feel guilty for that or even if they leave because they are making themsleves happy. thats unhealthy. its also an unfair pressure on someone to feel they might have to remain something that they may not want to be.

i would think it would be weird if the person who loves you was _not_ your cheerleader and happy for you when you got exactly what you wanted out of life. as far as i'm concerned the meaning of love is when even if its not thier goal they want you to achieve it just because they love you enough to want you to have everything you want out of life. love is usually kind of selfless like that.


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## superodalisque (Feb 26, 2010)

PS: we have other people who are unsupportive if us--i think they are called enemies


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## joswitch (Feb 26, 2010)

@caluaria - i can't rep. you for that last post! Damn!
@superO - i was more or less with you esp. re. "reason not to be in that relationship" up until your P.S. there... 
If someone respectfully bows out of intimacy with you cos they cannot support/deal with your choices (e.g. smoking) leaving you the space to pursue those choices unhindered, how is that action one of enmity? Surely that would be respectful neutrality??


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## LovelyLiz (Feb 26, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> PS: we have other people who are unsupportive if us--i think they are called enemies



I have benefited very much from people who love me being appropriately and lovingly confrontational toward me at times when I am acting like a jackass, displaying a major character flaw, or doing something dumb or harmful (to myself or another). 

When they do that, that's a way of truly being supportive, and not just being a yes-man or yes-woman and naively thinking everything I do is awesome. 

(I figure you meant this? But wanted to clarify because sometimes when people say they want a partner who supports them unconditionally, they don't leave room for debate, correction, and the ability to grow by seeing things from the other person's perspective. Not that we want someone who is constantly critical, but we do want someone who will tell us the truth about ourselves, right?)


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## superodalisque (Feb 26, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> I have benefited very much from people who love me being appropriately and lovingly confrontational toward me at times when I am acting like a jackass, displaying a major character flaw, or doing something dumb or harmful (to myself or another).
> 
> When they do that, that's a way of truly being supportive, and not just being a yes-man or yes-woman and naively thinking everything I do is awesome.
> 
> (I figure you meant this? But wanted to clarify because sometimes when people say they want a partner who supports them unconditionally, they don't leave room for debate, correction, and the ability to grow by seeing things from the other person's perspective. Not that we want someone who is constantly critical, but we do want someone who will tell us the truth about ourselves, right?)



sure generally speaking. buts that is very different from someone opposing the body image you want for yourself in general. i think a person has to be very careful that their own self interest doesn't come to bear and overcome someone else's happiness. i think it can be a little self delusional if you want to keep someone fat "for their own good" who doesn't want to be that way. in that case it wouldn't make a lot of sense knowing what the challenges could be. and its just as cruel as trying to force someone to be thin 'for their own good" who really enjoys being fat. i think we have to be really careful about using the idea of "truth" to control people. it depends on whose truth you're talking about and whats driving it. being honest is fine but squelching someone's dreams out of the need to control or manipulate isn't. there is't anything supportive in that. its a matter of respect.


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## LovelyLiz (Feb 26, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> sure generally speaking. buts that is very different from someone opposing the body image you want for yourself in general. i think a person has to be very careful that their own self interest doesn't come to bear and overcome someone else's happiness. i think it can be a little self delusional if you want to keep someone fat "for their own good" who doesn't want to be that way. in that case it wouldn't make a lot of sense knowing what the challenges could be. and its just as cruel as trying to force someone to be thin 'for their own good" who really enjoys being fat. i think we have to be really careful about using the idea of "truth" to control people. it depends on whose truth you're talking about and whats driving it. being honest is fine but squelching someone's dreams out of the need to control or manipulate isn't. there is't anything supportive in that. its a matter of respect.



Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. Something just struck me in the language of someone who loves us being only supportive and our enemies being the ones who are unsupportive, and just wanted to clarify what we meant by those terms.


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## kayrae (Feb 26, 2010)

bolded for truth. it upsets me when those we love choose to only hear the criticism instead of the love behind such harsh words



mcbeth said:


> I have benefited very much from people who love me being appropriately and lovingly confrontational toward me at times when I am acting like a jackass, displaying a major character flaw, or doing something dumb or harmful (to myself or another).
> 
> *When they do that, that's a way of truly being supportive, and not just being a yes-man or yes-woman and naively thinking everything I do is awesome. *
> 
> (I figure you meant this? But wanted to clarify because sometimes when people say they want a partner who supports them unconditionally, they don't leave room for debate, correction, and the ability to grow by seeing things from the other person's perspective. Not that we want someone who is constantly critical, but we do want someone who will tell us the truth about ourselves, right?)


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## superodalisque (Feb 26, 2010)

mcbeth said:


> Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. Something just struck me in the language of someone who loves us being only supportive and our enemies being the ones who are unsupportive, and just wanted to clarify what we meant by those terms.



yeah the way i wrote that wasn't very clear. sure, there is such a thing as constructive criticism. you're right that is very supportive. our enemies are unsupportive in the way that they try to tear us down instead of build us up. they try to keep us from what we truly want instead of helping us or at least not standing in the way of our getting there. they try to shake our self esteem or the belief when have in ourselves that we can achieve what we like. there are so many people who cloak their own motives in the guise of the truth and supportiveness. we just need to be sure that we know whether it really is the truth or just another sly way for someone to steer us away from what it is that we want. there is a lot of benign destruction out there cloaked in a lot of pseudo innocent sabotage.


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