# What and who is a BBW?



## GutsGirl (Jun 7, 2009)

I apologize if this is a question that has been asked before in other threads. I did a search for it but nothing came up. 

Anyway, I was doing some philosophical musing on this question, and was wondering, "What exactly makes a BBW a BBW?" I started wondering if there was a certain weight that had to be reached, a certain look that had to be achieved, and then I started wondering about it further....

Is it a state of mind? If a woman who is 'overweight', perhaps from 20-30 pounds to 100 or more pounds, looks at herself and thinks, "I am a BBW", and reclaims her self-image at least partially through that term, _is_ she a BBW? Is she a BBW because she says she is and identifies as such, or because others say she is and refer to her as that?

Conversely, if a large woman does not see herself as beautiful and sexually desirable, is she still somehow a BBW, or is that "beautiful" in the term BBW just waiting to come out and be expressed in how she feels about herself if she changes her mind about how she views her body?

What is this name of Big Beautiful Woman and how does it define you and your self-image? Have you had a journey of hating or at best being neutral towards your body and then coming to love it, and if so, how did this happen?


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## kayrae (Jun 7, 2009)

You're a BBW if you choose to identify yourself as such. A certain look or weight doesn't need to be achieved in order to own that word as part of your identity. In this particular fat community, I have been referred to as "hardly BBW" and that stings. My fat experience isn't any lesser because I'm in the low 200s range. I've broken furniture because of my weight. I've most certainly been treated differently because of my weight.

Just yesterday a lady came up to me and asked me when I was due. I'm not offended that she thought I was pregnant. I can see why she's made that mistake. My belly is the most prominent part of my body. But what really pisses me off? When I told her I wasn't pregnant, she proceeded to rub my belly, apologize, and tell me she's fat too. It's like really?!? You're a stranger. Don't touch me.

I went off-tangent there, but anyways... beauty is subjective. Just because a woman does not see herself as beautiful, doesn't mean she isn't beautiful at all.


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## superodalisque (Jun 7, 2009)

ideally, i think a BBW is someone who happens to be fat, whatever her notion of that is, and feels beautiful confident and comfortable in that role and isn't afraid or ashamed to show it. if she is a woman who hates herself that way then she is an LBW (little beautiful woman) in waiting. thats okay too. its my personal belief that a woman is beautiful at any size but she has to be ready to claim that. she has to accept that she is beautiful but not in the popular media sense of the word. not only that, she needs to exude that she has a sense of herself no matter who is looking or where she is. she is a woman who truly loves herself. if a woman isn't there yet it doesn't mean she is excluded. she is a woman becoming. and, as we know the journey is the thing.


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## katherine22 (Jun 7, 2009)

I am a big beautiful woman because I say so. If a woman allows a man or the mass culture to define her, she is in big trouble. Mass culture defines women whether fat or thin as lacking so that women can feel inferior and try to remedy that by engaging in retail therapy. Mass culture defines any woman over 35 as old and unattractive, again, inspiring fear in women about their looks. The only one who wins this game in America is a 20 year old for about 15 minutes she is allowed to feel worthy. I am beautiful and fat enough. If the whole world disagreed with that statement, I do not give a shit.


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## Bafta1 (Jun 7, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> I am a big beautiful woman because I say so. If a woman allows a man or the mass culture to define her, she is in big trouble. Mass culture defines women whether fat or thin as lacking so that women can feel inferior and try to remedy that by engaging in retail therapy. Mass culture defines any woman over 35 as old and unattractive, again, inspiring fear in women about their looks. The only one who wins this game in America is a 20 year old for about 15 minutes she is allowed to feel worthy. I am beautiful and fat enough. If the whole world disagreed with that statement, I do not give a shit.



Wonderful post! You might like Foucault on the female body... He basically says that the media construction of the perfect feminine form is a method of control designed to direct the individual's attention inwards, away from stuff that's too political... Thinness is a conspiracy!!!!


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## katherine22 (Jun 7, 2009)

Bafta1 said:


> Wonderful post! You might like Foucault on the female body... He basically says that the media construction of the perfect feminine form is a method of control designed to direct the individual's attention inwards, away from stuff that's too political... Thinness is a conspiracy!!!!



Thanks for your compliment, I am a big fan of Foucault. I am reading his treatise on mental illness.


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## mossystate (Jun 7, 2009)

Well... fat...thin...somewhere in between...the female form has always been dissected and control of it has always been desireable, so women do not become too involved in the politics of what runs this planet. It was no different when a larger female form was in vogue.


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## superodalisque (Jun 7, 2009)

also i'd like to add that i think a true BBW is one who isn't afraid to take the power to shape and define her own life herself. she doesn't rely on victimhood etc.. as an excuse for why her life isn't where she thinks it should be. she is a brave soldier who isn't afraid to face the world head on and get what she wants out of it no matter what. she is aspirational and celebratory. she doesn't lay down and cry when someone calls her fat. instead she holds her head high, smiles and says thankyou. there is a big difference between a BBW and simply a fat woman and it has nothing to do with size.


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## olwen (Jun 7, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> I am a big beautiful woman because I say so. If a woman allows a man or the mass culture to define her, she is in big trouble. Mass culture defines women whether fat or thin as lacking so that women can feel inferior and try to remedy that by engaging in retail therapy. Mass culture defines any woman over 35 as old and unattractive, again, inspiring fear in women about their looks. The only one who wins this game in America is a 20 year old for about 15 minutes she is allowed to feel worthy. I am beautiful and fat enough. If the whole world disagreed with that statement, I do not give a shit.



You're right about mass culture defining us, but that is the sticky widget isn't it. So many women go by what their culture says, and it's kind of hard not to. What pisses me off is that in the fashion industry a size 12 is plus sized when it's average. Something average shouldn't be considered outside the norm. We should do away with things like vanity sizing and just go by actual inches. It would be easier to find clothes. I think too we should all get sewing classes in high school so that sewing something that fits isn't a huge challenge for most folks, but if having a class like that means a return to the notion that domestic work is only for females, then forget it.


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## katherine22 (Jun 7, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> also i'd like to add that i think a true BBW is one who isn't afraid to take the power to shape and define her own life herself. she doesn't rely on victimhood etc.. as an excuse for why her life isn't where she thinks it should be. she is a brave soldier who isn't afraid to face the world head on and get what she wants out of it no matter what. she is aspirational and celebratory. she doesn't lay down and cry when someone calls her fat. instead she holds her head high, smiles and says thankyou. there is a big difference between a BBW and simply a fat woman and it has nothing to do with size.



You are right- feeling beautiful is a state of mind.


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## thatgirl08 (Jun 7, 2009)

I hate the term BBW. I really do. I don't mind it as much when people inside the community use it, because I know they do lovingly and as a way to quickly communicate an idea. However, I would never use this term to describe myself out of this community. It sounds too much like a euphemism for my tastes. Definition of euphemism from Dictionary.com - _the substitution of a mild, indirect, or vague expression for one thought to be offensive, harsh, or blunt. _ I don't _need_ a indirect, mild, vague expression to say I'm fat because fat _isn't_ a four letter word. It shouldn't be offensive.. it shouldn't be harsh. It's just a descriptor. It's what I am. I'm reclaiming it.

I don't form an identity through being a BBW but rather through being a fat girl.


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## superodalisque (Jun 7, 2009)

olwen said:


> You're right about mass culture defining us, but that is the sticky widget isn't it. So many women go by what their culture says, and it's kind of hard not to. What pisses me off is that in the fashion industry a size 12 is plus sized when it's average. Something average shouldn't be considered outside the norm. We should do away with things like vanity sizing and just go by actual inches. It would be easier to find clothes. I think too we should all get sewing classes in high school so that sewing something that fits isn't a huge challenge for most folks, but if having a class like that means a return to the notion that domestic work is only for females, then forget it.



i think your exactly right. i feel its going to be hard if we can't convince people that they don't have to exist through the minds of other people--especially people who act as though thier opinions count more than they do. a lot of people who are commentators in the fashion industry and are given media are complete and utter fakes who are out of touch with how real people feel or think. they are the same kind of people who thought someone like Obama couldn't win. they think that people never learn or evolve and that they can continue to take advantage. 

i think most people are pretty positive when they see a fat person looking good and cared for even if it isn't thier thing per say. its a shame that a lot of BBWs don't feel that is true and give up. or sometimes BBWs just feel rebellious because they feel thier attempts to get the approval of other people haven't met with support and openess. but its not so much about other people's approval but mainly showing that we already approve of ourselves and thier attacks won't work anymore. we feel proud and aren't afraid to show it on the outside. but it would be hard to feel that way if you thought that you were only opening yourself up to being bombarded and abused. we just need to figure out how not to give these people so much power over us. they definitely don't have it on thier own. we give it to them. most american women are over a size 12 but we are still buying from and listenig to these jerks. 

its a great idea to start sewing. we can get what we want. talented women can even support themselves making real clothing for other real women that real women look good in. and if enough also take money out of the existing marketplace by doing so people will notice in thier lack of sales. that should get a lot of attention. when money talks bullshit walks. who cares what people think about a woman's place and a man's place? i think its time that women stop worrying about that since we have way more economic, social power and awareness than we used to have and will be getting more. we need to start thinking like we are winners and just do what we want to do, like we have a right to it --because we do! until we do that no one will pay real women any attention. they won.t need to. they'll just keep trading on our insecurities and emotional scars.


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## superodalisque (Jun 7, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I hate the term BBW. I really do. I don't mind it as much when people inside the community use it, because I know they do lovingly and as a way to quickly communicate an idea. However, I would never use this term to describe myself out of this community. It sounds too much like a euphemism for my tastes. Definition of euphemism from Dictionary.com - _the substitution of a mild, indirect, or vague expression for one thought to be offensive, harsh, or blunt. _ I don't _need_ a indirect, mild, vague expression to say I'm fat because fat _isn't_ a four letter word. It shouldn't be offensive.. it shouldn't be harsh. It's just a descriptor. It's what I am. I'm reclaiming it.
> 
> I don't form an identity through being a BBW but rather through being a fat girl.



yeah i also think its empowering not to be afraid of the fat. i feel the same. i also love BBW or SSBBW inside the community but i hate it when its used in society like some kind of consolation prize. its as thought they are being paternalistic and saying "you aren't really beautiful but we'll just pretend to make you feel better" which is a big lie.


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## cherrycupcake (Jun 7, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I hate the term BBW. I really do. I don't mind it as much when people inside the community use it, because I know they do lovingly and as a way to quickly communicate an idea. However, I would never use this term to describe myself out of this community. It sounds too much like a euphemism for my tastes. Definition of euphemism from Dictionary.com - _the substitution of a mild, indirect, or vague expression for one thought to be offensive, harsh, or blunt. _ I don't _need_ a indirect, mild, vague expression to say I'm fat because fat _isn't_ a four letter word. It shouldn't be offensive.. it shouldn't be harsh. It's just a descriptor. It's what I am. I'm reclaiming it.
> 
> I don't form an identity through being a BBW but rather through being a fat girl.



im the exact same. i dont really see myself as a "bbw" im a fat girl


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## olwen (Jun 7, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i think your exactly right. i feel its going to be hard if we can't convince people that they don't have to exist through the minds of other people--especially people who act as though thier opinions count more than they do. a lot of people who are commentators in the fashion industry and are given media are complete and utter fakes who are out of touch with how real people feel or think. they are the same kind of people who thought someone like Obama couldn't win. they think that people never learn or evolve and that they can continue to take advantage.
> 
> i think most people are pretty positive when they see a fat person looking good and cared for even if it isn't thier thing per say. its a shame that a lot of BBWs don't feel that is true and give up. or sometimes BBWs just feel rebellious because they feel thier attempts to get the approval of other people haven't met with support and openess. but its not so much about other people's approval but mainly showing that we already approve of ourselves and thier attacks won't work anymore. we feel proud and aren't afraid to show it on the outside. but it would be hard to feel that way if you thought that you were only opening yourself up to being bombarded and abused. we just need to figure out how not to give these people so much power over us. they definitely don't have it on thier own. we give it to them. most american women are over a size 12 but we are still buying from and listenig to these jerks.
> 
> its a great idea to start sewing. we can get what we want. talented women can even support themselves making real clothing for other real women that real women look good in. and if enough also take money out of the existing marketplace by doing so people will notice in thier lack of sales. that should get a lot of attention. when money talks bullshit walks. who cares what people think about a woman's place and a man's place? i think its time that women stop worrying about that since we have way more economic, social power and awareness than we used to have and will be getting more. we need to start thinking like we are winners and just do what we want to do, like we have a right to it --because we do! until we do that no one will pay real women any attention. they won.t need to. they'll just keep trading on our insecurities and emotional scars.



Very well put.


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## thatgirl08 (Jun 7, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> yeah i also think its empowering not to be afraid of the fat. i feel the same. i also love BBW or SSBBW inside the community but i hate it when its used in society like some kind of consolation prize. its as thought they are being paternalistic and saying "you aren't really beautiful but we'll just pretend to make you feel better" which is a big lie.



Exactly. Or even worse, it's used as a joke.

Fat girl it is.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 7, 2009)

The term goes back, obviously, to well before Carole Shaw first slapped:doh: it on the logo of her magazine in '78... originally an in-house NAAFA term? Liz Fisher might recall...:wubu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Beautiful_Woman Wikipedia says Shaw coined it, but I dunno...


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## superodalisque (Jun 7, 2009)

Ned Sonntag said:


> The term goes back, obviously, to well before Carole Shaw first slapped:doh: it on the logo of her magazine in '78... originally an in-house NAAFA term? Liz Fisher might recall...:wubu:



i remember BBW mag was my first subscription ever. i had it but i still had no idea about NAAFA and SA really. at that age i wasn't political. i just wanted to know where to buy my clothing. but i think the meaning has evolved since then and it means different things to different people because its no longer 1978 and BBWs have a different consciousness now. it was one thing but now its probably that and something else. i think it was great that the op asked the question. i think all of the answers will just show how definitions and meanings are not set in stone and how if they are to keep to the original purpose which was basically an SA purpose, how we should approach it with new and more knowledgeable eyes in a new time.


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## Cors (Jun 8, 2009)

As much as I wish that it is all about identity and that actual size doesn't matter, I have to say that a BBW is someone who is at least medically overweight and wears a conventional plus size. 

I have always been a US size 0. I am also considered huge in my home country and have felt fat for most of my life. Granted I didn't break any chairs, but I couldn't shop in most regular stores back then, faced extensive bullying and was under constant pressure to lose weight. The idea of a Big Beautiful Woman would have been SO empowering to me when I was in my teens and hated my body more than anything... 

I can still relate to the idea now, but I won't actually use the term even in a size-accepting context because I am pretty sure most people here will just crucify me. You hear enough horror stories of women who are a size 24 and 250lbs getting told that they are "barely a BBW".


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## Jon Blaze (Jun 8, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> yeah i also think its empowering not to be afraid of the fat. i feel the same. i also love BBW or SSBBW inside the community but i hate it when its used in society like some kind of consolation prize. its as thought they are being paternalistic and saying "you aren't really beautiful but we'll just pretend to make you feel better" which is a big lie.



That's exactly what I was going to say. Besides the community, it's too often use as a crutch. I won't even say that you have to necessarily be confident or love yourself, but I think you have to at least accept yourself. Why describe yourself with a term that includes the very thing you hate about yourself?


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## StarWitness (Jun 8, 2009)

I've been wondering the same thing as of late.

I'm in that "in between" area: I'm smaller than most of the photos of BBW I've seen here, but larger than most of the other women that I interact with IRL. I self-identify as a BBW-- although I'm starting to have second thoughts about that term, maybe that's a subject for another thread. 

I'm not sure how much weight I would have to lose before I would consider myself "normal." I had been making the distinction based on clothing size-- if I can't fit in clothing offered in the average store at the mall, I am fat/plus-size/BBW. I don't like basing how I label myself on what corporations find acceptable, but they have a much bigger impact on my culture than I do, and it seems to me that being a BBW is connected to having a body that is outside the "norm."


Similar question to the one posed by the OP: what distinguishes between a BBW and SSBBW?


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## Keb (Jun 8, 2009)

I dunno, I always thought it was pretty self-explanatory. If you're big, and beautiful, and a woman, then you're a BBW. Big is pretty flexible (if you feel big, either you are, or you're probably visiting Japan, or both), and there are very few people lacking entirely in beauty of any kind (beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway), and the number of people who aren't sure if they're a man or a woman is pretty small, too. 

I tend to prefer the term "princess" to BBW, but that's a personal thing (that only omits the "big" requirement to my mind).


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## CamileL (Jun 9, 2009)

Labels tend to be extremely fluid. My former roomie was from Japan. She looked about average size by American standards. She told me that she was considered tall, fat, and busty in parts of Japan. She wold always complain that she was fat. When I asked what that made me, she said it was different for me because I looked good no matter what size I was. On the flip side of that, my grandmother used to tell me that I was "big". I was between a size 9 and a 12 through most of middle and high school. When I look at pictures of myself back then I want to shake her and ask what the heck is her definition of big. Now a days I definitely consider myself to be "big", but admit that even that is subjective. I've seen sites that classify women my size as "plumpers" and other places that say I'm a bbw. A few of my friends say that I'm a bbw because I'm plus-sized and still carry myself like I'm a million bucks. Other people have described me as "the black woman/girl with the big boobs". :doh: *shrugs* Like a few others have mentioned, I don't use the term "bbw" outside of specific settings.


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## Tooz (Jun 9, 2009)

...Can't we just all be beautiful women? :|


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## CamileL (Jun 9, 2009)

Tooz said:


> ...Can't we just all be beautiful women? :|



I used to think that way, too. Then I met some women with some very nasty attitudes. :/


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## Tooz (Jun 9, 2009)

CamileL said:


> I used to think that way, too. Then I met some women with some very nasty attitudes. :/



No, I know, me too. Fuck them, I say. I just think all the pondering of what makes a BBW/small woman, etc...I dunno. Forest for the trees and all.


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## Captain Save (Jun 9, 2009)

I wish this could be defined by numbers; that would make everything easy. Unfortunately, as with Gulliver's Travels, big is relative; this was proven by Cors. Beautiful is judgemental and nebulous as well; as with porn, there is no definition by which the subject may be measured except to say, 'I know it when I see it.' We all know this won't wash; certain shades of beauty, such as character, humanity, and love, aren't immediately visible without getting to know the subject in question. The only aspect here that is irrefutable is gender, and that, in and of itself is only a detail; anyone remember the story of Joan of Arc? In the end, I think the title of BBW is something assumed by the wearer, like Mother; it is earned by the courageous woman who makes that choice when she gets to the fork in the road that demands it.


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## Preston (Jun 9, 2009)

All I know is, I'm not one. (Because I have a penis.)


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## bdog (Jun 9, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I don't form an identity through being a BBW but rather through being a fat girl.



from my perspective there's lots of girls who are fat, but not as many girls that like their fat bodies. that's when it's helpful to have a word that distinguishes between the two, and for the time being that word is bbw. 

i'm not really fond of that term, though. it strikes me as a bit reactive, but i embrace it and use it anyway because i'm a member of this community. it'd be up to the ladies (and each individual) to decide what's best for them, i suppose. 

if you want to be a fat girl, more power to you. i think some of the other members had a longer struggle to be able to define themselves as beautiful, so just keep that in mind even if you decide that the term bbw isn't for you. it's an acronym worth respecting. :bow:


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## thatgirl08 (Jun 9, 2009)

bdog said:


> from my perspective there's lots of girls who are fat, but not as many girls that like their fat bodies. that's when it's helpful to have a word that distinguishes between the two, and for the time being that word is bbw.
> 
> i'm not really fond of that term, though. it strikes me as a bit reactive, but i embrace it and use it anyway because i'm a member of this community. it'd be up to the ladies (and each individual) to decide what's best for them, i suppose.
> 
> if you want to be a fat girl, more power to you. i think some of the other members had a longer struggle to be able to define themselves as beautiful, so just keep that in mind even if you decide that the term bbw isn't for you. it's an acronym worth respecting. :bow:



The fact that I am able to refer to myself as fat rather than BBW, big boned, chunky, etc. makes it clear that I embrace who I am and accept the fact that yeah, I'm fat. Once again, BBW is too much of a euphamism for me.


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## mossystate (Jun 9, 2009)

I am old school. I am a woman. I know there is an obsession here for labels, but, get yer eyes checked if you can't tell if I am fat.


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## olwen (Jun 9, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> I wish this could be defined by numbers; that would make everything easy. Unfortunately, as with Gulliver's Travels, big is relative; this was proven by Cors. Beautiful is judgemental and nebulous as well; as with porn, there is no definition by which the subject may be measured except to say, 'I know it when I see it.' We all know this won't wash; certain shades of beauty, such as character, humanity, and love, aren't immediately visible without getting to know the subject in question. The only aspect here that is irrefutable is gender, and that, in and of itself is only a detail; anyone remember the story of Joan of Arc? In the end, I think the title of BBW is something assumed by the wearer, like Mother; it is earned by the courageous woman who makes that choice when she gets to the fork in the road that demands it.



There are a set of numbers: BMI and height-weight charts.  Blech. Phooey. Those numbers are damn near worthless too, especially if some entity like the NIH can redefine those numbers at their discretion. Fuck them too. 

Also, I don't think gender is irrefutable either. I have small sideburns that I don't always shave off and when I don't I get mistaken for a man. Doesn't matter if I'm wearing makeup, a dress, and huge earrings. I can't even count the number of times I've been called Sir, or to see the priceless expression on those people's faces when they hear me speak. It irks me sometimes, but those befuddled mumbling apologies are quite amusing. Gender doesn't always exist in binaries.

ETA: I don't have any strong feelings about the term, and I use it all the time. I never saw it as a euphemism either. There are other euphemistic words that irk me waaaay more. What makes a woman a bbw is as with all things fat, subjective.


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## Captain Save (Jun 9, 2009)

I think gender is irrefutable because, in the most intimate setting, it can be proven in an absolute sense; it's hard to argue with what's below the belt. Sure, there are points about us all that cross customary boundaries, but it usually breaks down to one or the other conclusively.


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## olwen (Jun 9, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> I think gender is irrefutable because, in the most intimate setting, it can be proven in an absolute sense; it's hard to argue with what's below the belt. Sure, there are points about us all that cross customary boundaries, but it usually breaks down to one or the other conclusively.



Okay, I'm not an expert on trans-anything, but what if the person is a transgender female? What then? I realize a transgender female is ostensibly a female, but....if feel like that's a gray area, and again I admit I'm not fully versed on the subject, so I apologize to anyone if I've misunderstood what a trans person is. In any event I still maintain, gender doesn't exist in binaries even if I can't fully explain why.


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## Captain Save (Jun 9, 2009)

I suppose that would be the loophole in my theory; after all, they say nothing in life is certain but death and taxes, right? You're right, there are medical phenomena that I can't explain or dismiss, so there are no definitive criteria for BBW that I can consider.


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## olwen (Jun 9, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> I suppose that would be the loophole in my theory; after all, they say nothing in life is certain but death and taxes, right? You're right, there are medical phenomena that I can't explain or dismiss, so there are no definitive criteria for BBW that I can consider.



Well, I honestly don't think there needs to be a definitive definition. It's just one of those "I know it when I see it" kind of things, whatever "it" is.


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## Tania (Jun 10, 2009)

kayrae said:


> Just because a woman does not see herself as beautiful, doesn't mean she isn't beautiful at all.



Seriously. I'm sick of the "not confident/not confident enough" headtrips some people use to try to control and/or discount other people. It's counterproductive. 

Also...

I don't enjoy semantics games, but I'm glad there are people who seek to infuse various labels with new, personal, and positive meaning. Let people pick the size descriptors they like best, and try not to read too much into the choices they make.


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## CamileL (Jun 10, 2009)

olwen said:


> Okay, I'm not an expert on trans-anything, but what if the person is a transgender female? What then? I realize a transgender female is ostensibly a female, but....if feel like that's a gray area, and again I admit I'm not fully versed on the subject, so I apologize to anyone if I've misunderstood what a trans person is. In any event I still maintain, gender doesn't exist in binaries even if I can't fully explain why.



From what I understand of it, a fat transperson that is biologically female would probably consider himself a fat male born with the wrong pipes. @[email protected]


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## msbard90 (Jun 10, 2009)

honestly, if you think you are a bbw, you probably fit into the category. To me, bbw refers to a woman with curves- whether youre a size 12 or a 30, if recognizing and appreciating the curves makes you happy, then you are a bigger, beautiful, woman. And to the response of its not bbw- its just being fat, I think the beautiful aspect of bbw has a lot to do with confidence, which i feel makes a woman look and feel beautiful from the inside out. And hell, it is a lot more attractive sounding than, "yes I'm fat". Even if it's the truth, don't we all want to feel beautiful, ya know??


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## StarWitness (Jun 10, 2009)

Question for the BBW/fat women/your-label-here: what are your thoughts on when someone who you would consider to be not-BBW identifies herself as a BBW? 

I know that hearing someone smaller than me talk about how "fat" they are in a negative way makes me feel awful-- and I'm sure that a lot of you have had similar experiences-- but what about in a positive or even neutral way? 

What if it's someone who is what most people would consider thin (or at least "average")? I've gotten into arguments with people who claimed that Beyonce and Jennifer Connelly aren't thin (not that they claimed that these women are fat, just not thin). I'm still boggled. I mean, I guess Beyonce is somewhat curvier than a lot of female pop stars... kind of... but Jennifer Connelly? Really? If they're... average, I guess?... then where does fat start? Where does obese start? And what if a woman Beyonce's size or Jennifer Connelly's size identifies as fat? How would you react?


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## olwen (Jun 10, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> Question for the BBW/fat women/your-label-here: what are your thoughts on when someone who you would consider to be not-BBW identifies herself as a BBW?
> 
> I know that hearing someone smaller than me talk about how "fat" they are in a negative way makes me feel awful-- and I'm sure that a lot of you have had similar experiences-- but what about in a positive or even neutral way?
> 
> What if it's someone who is what most people would consider thin (or at least "average")? I've gotten into arguments with people who claimed that Beyonce and Jennifer Connelly aren't thin (not that they claimed that these women are fat, just not thin). I'm still boggled. I mean, I guess Beyonce is somewhat curvier than a lot of female pop stars... kind of... but Jennifer Connelly? Really? If they're... average, I guess?... then where does fat start? Where does obese start? And what if a woman Beyonce's size or Jennifer Connelly's size identifies as fat? How would you react?



I have given up trying to figure this out. If a person who is obviously not fat wants to think they are fat, then, whatever. Sometimes people just want to complain just to complain. As long as that person doesn't try to bond with me over their "fatness" then whatever. If they do try to bond then I have to roll my eyes and say something - usually something dismissive. I know that person really has no idea what being fat really means if they think just having a big ass makes them fat. It also makes me feel like what they say trivializes what I've experienced as an actual fat person. Generally tho, ignoring "I'm so fat" comments from thin people keeps me relatively sane.


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## CamileL (Jun 10, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> Question for the BBW/fat women/your-label-here: what are your thoughts on when someone who you would consider to be not-BBW identifies herself as a BBW?
> 
> I know that hearing someone smaller than me talk about how "fat" they are in a negative way makes me feel awful-- and I'm sure that a lot of you have had similar experiences-- but what about in a positive or even neutral way?
> 
> What if it's someone who is what most people would consider thin (or at least "average")? I've gotten into arguments with people who claimed that Beyonce and Jennifer Connelly aren't thin (not that they claimed that these women are fat, just not thin). I'm still boggled. I mean, I guess Beyonce is somewhat curvier than a lot of female pop stars... kind of... but Jennifer Connelly? Really? If they're... average, I guess?... then where does fat start? Where does obese start? And what if a woman Beyonce's size or Jennifer Connelly's size identifies as fat? How would you react?



I've been baffled by this one as well. One of my friends is a size 10 because she has hips and round behind. According to her BMI, she's overweight. So now she goes on about how she needs to lose weight (or at least tone up her tummy). Part of it is because there is a big difference between what society considers slender or overweight and what is physiologically considered overweight. When most of those doctors go on the news and say "most of America is overweight" they're talking about BMI. Considering some of those same doctors then turn around and try to convince people to eat moar soy, I tend to ignore them. A woman like Beyonce has hips. Jenifer Connelly has curves. Sadly, both seem to be so rare in Hollywood that the appearance of either baffles people.


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## Keb (Jun 10, 2009)

I never liked other people giving me labels without my agreement, or trying to tell me I'm not something I think I am just because their definition is slightly different (though if I've got the definition obviously wrong, that's a different story). 

Words are as flexible as people and I think everyone has the right to declare what labels properly apply to them. If you want to be a BMI 16 BBW, go right ahead. People might not accept your label (and might laugh in your face), but if it makes you happy to call yourself that, where's the harm?


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## msbard90 (Jun 11, 2009)

Keb said:


> I never liked other people giving me labels without my agreement, or trying to tell me I'm not something I think I am just because their definition is slightly different (though if I've got the definition obviously wrong, that's a different story).
> 
> Words are as flexible as people and I think everyone has the right to declare what labels properly apply to them. If you want to be a BMI 16 BBW, go right ahead. People might not accept your label (and might laugh in your face), but if it makes you happy to call yourself that, where's the harm?



agreed^ if you were anorexic (just a hypothetical scenario here), and gained 50 lbs but only weigh 150, that would be a big weight gain. You might think of yourself as a bbw, because you are a lot bigger than you were, feel beautiful, and are a woman. It might not be what we all think of as a bbw but as said before, if it makes you happy to call yourself that, wheres the harm?


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## William (Jun 11, 2009)

Hi Keb

Women Size 16 - 30 most Doctors would just call them Obese.

William




Keb said:


> I never liked other people giving me labels without my agreement, or trying to tell me I'm not something I think I am just because their definition is slightly different (though if I've got the definition obviously wrong, that's a different story).
> 
> Words are as flexible as people and I think everyone has the right to declare what labels properly apply to them. If you want to be a BMI 16 BBW, go right ahead. People might not accept your label (and might laugh in your face), but if it makes you happy to call yourself that, where's the harm?


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## msbard90 (Jun 11, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Keb
> 
> Women Size 16 - 30 most Doctors would just call them Obese.
> 
> William



i think that she meant a BMI of 16. which would make you super little


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## Keb (Jun 11, 2009)

Yeah, I did--BMI 16 is officially "underweight". But I still don't see the harm in someone coopting BBW if it makes them feel better. The acronym doesn't become meaningless because one person uses it in a nonconformist way--the same way it isn't meaningless simply because some people believe you should have to feel Confident with a captial C about being fat to use it, while others believe you should simply be generally believed to be fat. 

Like any word, its maximum value is in what it can communicate between people. I think, for most people, what it communicates is "I'm larger than average, but I'm still a pretty woman." There's still a lot of subjectivity in that, which is why I think it's okay for people to apply or reject the label as they please when it comes to themselves. It does, however, bug me when people try to demand other people use or not use labels according to their rules. 

Since ther isn't a degree or some official qualfication in place for BBW, it's open territory. (And there isn't, unlike, say, the term "doctor".) It's clear some people believe there should be such qualifications to clarify things, but why?


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## William (Jun 11, 2009)

Opps! (I am multi-tasking)

Still Doctors are quick to apply the obese label to patients who are over weight.

William




msbard90 said:


> i think that she meant a BMI of 16. which would make you super little


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## msbard90 (Jun 11, 2009)

my bmi is 42.6 so aparently i'm pretty obese compared to "30" the bmi that classifies obesity. I would have to be 175 lbs or less to not be obese. I think I was pretty healthy when I was 175, as I feel now at 250. Screw those stupid charts!!!


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## olwen (Jun 12, 2009)

msbard90 said:


> agreed^ if you were anorexic (just a hypothetical scenario here), and gained 50 lbs but only weigh 150, that would be a big weight gain. You might think of yourself as a bbw, because you are a lot bigger than you were, feel beautiful, and are a woman. It might not be what we all think of as a bbw but as said before, if it makes you happy to call yourself that, wheres the harm?





Keb said:


> Yeah, I did--BMI 16 is officially "underweight". But I still don't see the harm in someone coopting BBW if it makes them feel better. The acronym doesn't become meaningless because one person uses it in a nonconformist way--the same way it isn't meaningless simply because some people believe you should have to feel Confident with a captial C about being fat to use it, while others believe you should simply be generally believed to be fat.
> 
> Like any word, its maximum value is in what it can communicate between people. I think, for most people, what it communicates is "I'm larger than average, but I'm still a pretty woman." There's still a lot of subjectivity in that, which is why I think it's okay for people to apply or reject the label as they please when it comes to themselves. It does, however, bug me when people try to demand other people use or not use labels according to their rules.
> 
> Since ther isn't a degree or some official qualfication in place for BBW, it's open territory. (And there isn't, unlike, say, the term "doctor".) It's clear some people believe there should be such qualifications to clarify things, but why?



If a woman wants to call herself a bbw, then that's fine. I don't think anybody's arguing that. But it does beg the question, "What does it mean to be fat?" For me that answer really comes down to quality of life. At what point is your quality of life affected to the point where you have to organize your day around your physical limitations - what you can't do that thin people can? Since the world isn't designed for very fat people's bodies this means you have to come up with "life hacks" that thin people don't have to think about, and wouldn't even begin to fathom. And when trying to explain how those hacks work would only ilicit confused, blank, or disgusted looks. There is a huge difference in terms of quality of life between 150lbs and 350lbs and 550lbs. 

And yes, someone who was 100lbs and becomes 150lbs will experience things in a different way. So how profound are the changes? Obviously that depends on the person's coping skills, but I feel like if someone at 150 feels the need to adopt the term bbw for themselves, something's off in our society, especially if that size is more average than not. So again, I'm left with the question, what does it mean to be fat?


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## Cors (Jun 12, 2009)

Okay, going to elaborate on the other side. 

Location and culture really does play a huge part. My little sister is 125lbs or so, her BMI is 22. That makes her borderline overweight (BMI cut-off for East Asians is 23) and much bigger than most women where she lives. She is the fattest girl in her school of 1200+ people, half of them girls - hard to believe, maybe, but I could send you comparison pics of my 98lb self looking huge in a sea of 80lb girls. Height and weight is taken once a week, in public and she is openly mocked and humiliated. It is also compulsory for her to join the Trim And Fit (FAT spelt backwards, basically) Club. Members of that club are forced to exercise everyday, put on diets in school, paraded in front of everyone, praises for those who lose and punishments for those who gain. It doesn't help that everyone has to wear uniforms that look like crap on anyone who has tits or ass - she had to get hers special ordered, so did I - my uniform even looked different from everyone else's. She has never had a boyfriend, or at least, one that is willing to acknowledge her in public. I'm a little luckier because I like older butches who generally care less about my size. She can't shop for clothes from most stores, she orders them from US websites where she wears a size 6/8. Most people, including my parents, relatives and even strangers on the street openly ridicule her "fat" and tell her she should lose 30lbs. And of course, fat is synonymous with ugly. Imagine she stumbles upon Dims for the first time, realises that fat women are beautiful and HUMAN too, that there are people who actually prefer bigger girls, feels a little better about herself... and then get told that she's "not a BBW at all"? Sure, she won't have such a hard time if she grew up in the US but she didn't. Undoubtedly, a 450lb woman will get HELL (my ex is 250-330 and I saw how people treat her) ... unless she is "exotic", then the locals don't seem to care. 

Even if you talk about physical limitations, it is still tricky. Yes, it is unlikely that a 150lb person can have the same limitations as one who is 450lbs, but there are still some people who struggle with health issues at 250lbs, while others remain healthy even at 450lbs. 

The bottomline is that it might be difficult for someone who is much bigger to realise and accept that others who are smaller, whether a little or a loooot go through something similar.


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## olwen (Jun 12, 2009)

Cors, that's crazy and also sad.

Like I said there is something off here. Makes no effing sense.


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## Cors (Jun 12, 2009)

Oh well, at least the official program has supposedly been scrapped (Wiki link, you'll find enough depressing articles if you search) but from what I hear the new one isn't any better.


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## olwen (Jun 12, 2009)

Cors said:


> Oh well, at least the official program has supposedly been scrapped (Wiki link, you'll find enough depressing articles if you search) but from what I hear the new one isn't any better.



That just gives me the heebee jeebies. I'm really sorry they had/have to go thru that.


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## StarWitness (Jun 12, 2009)

Cors: Wow. I hope your sister realizes what total bullshit that whole system is. My previous post was from a completely American point of view; I'm sorry if I came off as narrow-minded. 

I've really been gnawing on this issue for the past few days, and in my opinion, claiming the label of BBW, or fat chick, or anything along those lines, has to do with having and accepting a body that is outside what is considered "acceptable" by the mainstream. I think I'm comfortable with looking at it that way. (Until someone comes up with a clever way to debunk my definition, that is. :happy


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## Keb (Jun 12, 2009)

olwen said:


> If a woman wants to call herself a bbw, then that's fine. I don't think anybody's arguing that. But it does beg the question, "What does it mean to be fat?" For me that answer really comes down to quality of life. At what point is your quality of life affected to the point where you have to organize your day around your physical limitations - what you can't do that thin people can? Since the world isn't designed for very fat people's bodies this means you have to come up with "life hacks" that thin people don't have to think about, and wouldn't even begin to fathom. And when trying to explain how those hacks work would only ilicit confused, blank, or disgusted looks. There is a huge difference in terms of quality of life between 150lbs and 350lbs and 550lbs.
> 
> And yes, someone who was 100lbs and becomes 150lbs will experience things in a different way. So how profound are the changes? Obviously that depends on the person's coping skills, but I feel like if someone at 150 feels the need to adopt the term bbw for themselves, something's off in our society, especially if that size is more average than not. So again, I'm left with the question, what does it mean to be fat?




It is an interesting question...but at 350lbs my life hacks don't seem to be a huge quality of life issue for me. They're more like minor annoyances most of the time. I'd rather be able to find shoes that fit than clothes--I can make clothes. (Shoes are much harder.) Up the ante by 200 lbs and yes, it would be whole different story. I'm not sure, however, that we need specific labels for every grouping; different people find different challenges in life, no matter what their size. 

Like, for example, the clothing thing--some people can't just make their own clothes and be happy with that. (And I can still buy clothes fairly readily at my size--3/4x stuff isn't too hard to find.) Perhaps it doesn't seem as radically different for me because I've always been fat, so I don't have "thin" experiences to compare my life to. 

I think it ultimately comes down to your individual experience what fat means for you. That's one more reason I think the label should be flexible and we shouldn't try to nail it down and insist on a concrete definition. We won't succeed anyway; people use terms the way they've come to understand them, not the way that other people say they should. Like "xerox", which the company owning that word as a brand name objected to for a while as the general term for photocopying. Didn't stop people from using it as a verb, regardless of the equipment used.

There's enough room in the world for all of us, whatever our fat experiences. I should hope there's enough room at Dimensions for BBWs of all sizes, too.


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## TraciJo67 (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm a size 10-12 and I am not thin. I don't claim the BBW label, because I believe that I'm an "average" size (that term being relative ... a lot of people would consider me to be at least chubby, but I don't give a flying fig what a lot of people think, nor do I feel threatened by any labels). I don't think that defining BBW has to mean that the person in question struggles with health or mobility issues or has a difficult time finding clothes that fit or faces public ridicule. I'm with Keb; I think that a large part of it lies in how a person defines him/herself. I know people whom I consider to be quite large; they'd adamantly reject the BBW label because they associate it with a negative, and they'd rather delude themselves that they aren't "that big", Lord no, not as big at THAT fat man/woman . I know others who embrace the label and, at least here at Dims, would be considered quite average-sized. I think that if the term had all negative connotations removed, INCLUDING some that I've seen here (i.e., you can't possibly be a BBW unless you're struggling in some way), more people would feel free to embrace it ... and wouldn't feel threatened by others who do, for that matter.


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## mergirl (Jun 12, 2009)

Preston said:


> All I know is, I'm not one. (Because I have a penis.)


A big beautiful Wang??


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## Jon Blaze (Jun 12, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'm a size 10-12 and I am not thin. I don't claim the BBW label, because I believe that I'm an "average" size (that term being relative ... a lot of people would consider me to be at least chubby, but I don't give a flying fig what a lot of people think, nor do I feel threatened by any labels). I don't think that defining BBW has to mean that the person in question struggles with health or mobility issues or has a difficult time finding clothes that fit or faces public ridicule. I'm with Keb; I think that a large part of it lies in how a person defines him/herself. I know people whom I consider to be quite large; they'd adamantly reject the BBW label because they associate it with a negative, and they'd rather delude themselves that they aren't "that big", Lord no, not as big at THAT fat man/woman . I know others who embrace the label and, at least here at Dims, would be considered quite average-sized. I think that if the term had all negative connotations removed, INCLUDING some that I've seen here (i.e., you can't possibly be a BBW unless you're struggling in some way), more people would feel free to embrace it ... and wouldn't feel threatened by others who do, for that matter.



Agreed. For me my use of term has more to do with how you see yourself then one's attractiveness, or "Good qualities" that may or may not transcend those of others.


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## olwen (Jun 12, 2009)

Keb said:


> It is an interesting question...but at 350lbs my life hacks don't seem to be a huge quality of life issue for me. They're more like minor annoyances most of the time. I'd rather be able to find shoes that fit than clothes--I can make clothes. (Shoes are much harder.) Up the ante by 200 lbs and yes, it would be whole different story. I'm not sure, however, that we need specific labels for every grouping; different people find different challenges in life, no matter what their size.
> 
> Like, for example, the clothing thing--some people can't just make their own clothes and be happy with that. (And I can still buy clothes fairly readily at my size--3/4x stuff isn't too hard to find.) Perhaps it doesn't seem as radically different for me because I've always been fat, so I don't have "thin" experiences to compare my life to.
> 
> ...





TraciJo67 said:


> I'm a size 10-12 and I am not thin. I don't claim the BBW label, because I believe that I'm an "average" size (that term being relative ... a lot of people would consider me to be at least chubby, but I don't give a flying fig what a lot of people think, nor do I feel threatened by any labels). I don't think that defining BBW has to mean that the person in question struggles with health or mobility issues or has a difficult time finding clothes that fit or faces public ridicule. I'm with Keb; I think that a large part of it lies in how a person defines him/herself. I know people whom I consider to be quite large; they'd adamantly reject the BBW label because they associate it with a negative, and they'd rather delude themselves that they aren't "that big", Lord no, not as big at THAT fat man/woman . I know others who embrace the label and, at least here at Dims, would be considered quite average-sized. I think that if the term had all negative connotations removed, INCLUDING some that I've seen here (i.e., you can't possibly be a BBW unless you're struggling in some way), more people would feel free to embrace it ... and wouldn't feel threatened by others who do, for that matter.



Still begs the question, what does it mean to be fat? If there are fat people who don't want to use the word cause they don't think it's an accurate descriptor, and thin people who do want to use it cause they think it is, then the term is meaningless, and other "fat terms" are meaningless by extension. From now on, I'm a tree.


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## kayrae (Jun 12, 2009)

Would you consider yourself a fat tree? 



olwen said:


> Still begs the question, what does it mean to be fat? If there are fat people who don't want to use the word cause they don't think it's an accurate descriptor, and thin people who do want to use it cause they think it is, then the term is meaningless, and other "fat terms" are meaningless by extension. From now on, I'm a tree.


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## olwen (Jun 12, 2009)

kayrae said:


> Would you consider yourself a fat tree?



A sturdy one.


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## Cors (Jun 12, 2009)

olwen said:


> Still begs the question, what does it mean to be fat? If there are fat people who don't want to use the word cause they don't think it's an accurate descriptor, and thin people who do want to use it cause they think it is, then the term is meaningless, and other "fat terms" are meaningless by extension. From now on, I'm a tree.



Hmm, I see fat as a descriptor (subjective) and fat as an identity (personal) as two different but related things. Most people who look fat identify as fat, but there are fat people who do not and then there are thin people who do. 

Not sure if this helps, but I guess you can compare it to the term butch, which is both a descriptor and an identity. A woman who looks and acts masculine isn't neccessarily lesbian (and the other stereotypes that come with it - Dominant, likes femmes, have stereotypically male interests etc) and might not care for the term, let alone make it part of their identity. And then there are those that may not look butch (this is subjective, just look at how people talk about Ellen Degeneres) but identify as such because of their preferred role in a relationship and/or in bed.


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## thatgirl08 (Jun 12, 2009)

I think I may be part of the minority in saying this but I don't think that just because you use the term fat or BBW to describe yourself, it makes you that.


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## Cors (Jun 12, 2009)

thatgirl08 said:


> I think I may be part of the minority in saying this but I don't think that just because you use the term fat or BBW to describe yourself, it makes you that.



Well, it is one thing to say that you don't think someone has a fat body, but another to completely invalidate their "fat experience". Whether they feel insulted or not depends on how you and the other person see the word fat - as a descriptor, adjective or both. The former is fine since it is just an opinion and we are all entitled to have them, some people just have more extreme views than others. My parents happen to think that anything above 85lbs is disgustingly fat and then there are overzealous FAs who think 300lbs is small.


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## Jon Blaze (Jun 12, 2009)

Cors droppin' the knowledge! And this is why she's so awesome. :bow:

(Oh: And she's pretty too, but no need to mention that again  :wubu


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## Your Plump Princess (Jun 12, 2009)

Since it stands for "Big Beautiful Woman" 

I'm Assuming a Larger-Than-Societial-'Norm' Belly, At least. 
Breasts
And a Vagina.


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## superodalisque (Jun 14, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'm a size 10-12 and I am not thin. I don't claim the BBW label, because I believe that I'm an "average" size (that term being relative ... a lot of people would consider me to be at least chubby, but I don't give a flying fig what a lot of people think, nor do I feel threatened by any labels). I don't think that defining BBW has to mean that the person in question struggles with health or mobility issues or has a difficult time finding clothes that fit or faces public ridicule. I'm with Keb; I think that a large part of it lies in how a person defines him/herself. I know people whom I consider to be quite large; they'd adamantly reject the BBW label because they associate it with a negative, and they'd rather delude themselves that they aren't "that big", Lord no, not as big at THAT fat man/woman . I know others who embrace the label and, at least here at Dims, would be considered quite average-sized. I think that if the term had all negative connotations removed, INCLUDING some that I've seen here (i.e., you can't possibly be a BBW unless you're struggling in some way), more people would feel free to embrace it ... and wouldn't feel threatened by others who do, for that matter.



i agree with you 100%. this suffering sad sack club has to go. what happened to the celebratory nature of BBWdom? if you don't whine or feel yourself a victim sometimes you aren't seen to be a real BBW. never mind most people in the world have a struggle of one kind of another. only my struggle at my particular BBW size is valid. it also seems to make it okay to be abusive to people who differ from me ideologically because "i am a BBW" like some kind of asshole license. and because i am depressed about who i am i feel i have the right to judge and pick apart anything anyone else is trying to do for the BBW cause that is positive even though i myself may do nothing to advance it. i can't even be encouraging to those who do because i'm secretly jealous that they have the attention that i want. 

that attitude has to go. its not a wonder people don't want to be involved with that. people want to relate to something uplifting and positive --not depressive. it makes us look like a negative stereotype for sure. it makes us look greedy selfish and uncaring even though most BBWs are the exact opposite. also focusing on the negative most of the time does not help us to move forward. we have to learn to leave scars we might have in the past so that we can move forward with hope. i'm not saying that people have to pretend that they don't have struggles but it can't be your life's focus except to overcome them or negate them as much as possible. what i would personally call a true BBW is a person who focuses on or tries to focus on the positives she has rather than the negatives. the center of her life is I CAN. i think the term BBW at its most positive is a spirit that guides your lifestyle in the face of some social prejudice and not a handicap.


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## olwen (Jun 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i agree with you 100%. this suffering sad sack club has to go. what happened to the celebratory nature of BBWdom? if you don't whine or feel yourself a victim sometimes you aren't seen to be a real BBW. never mind most people in the world have a struggle of one kind of another. only my struggle at my particular BBW size is valid. it also seems to make it okay to be abusive to people who differ from me ideologically because "i am a BBW" like some kind of asshole license. and because i am depressed about who i am i feel i have the right to judge and pick apart anything anyone else is trying to do for the BBW cause that is positive even though i myself may do nothing to advance it. i can't even be encouraging to those who do because i'm secretly jealous that they have the attention that i want.
> 
> that attitude has to go. its not a wonder people don't want to be involved with that. people want to relate to something uplifting and positive --not depressive. it makes us look like a negative stereotype for sure. it makes us look greedy selfish and uncaring even though most BBWs are the exact opposite. also focusing on the negative most of the time does not help us to move forward. we have to learn to leave scars we might have in the past so that we can move forward with hope. i'm not saying that people have to pretend that they don't have struggles but it can't be your life's focus except to overcome them or negate them as much as possible. what i would personally call a true BBW is a person who focuses on or tries to focus on the positives she has rather than the negatives. the center of her life is I CAN. i think the term BBW at its most positive is a spirit that guides your lifestyle in the face of some social prejudice and not a handicap.



Who said anything about focusing on the negative? 

For me this is really simple. I wouldn't want to hear a white person claiming they are black. That just sounds ridiculous. To me it sounds equally ridiculous for a thin person to call themselves fat. But since fat is not as easy to define as race or nationality, then there has to be some way, somehow to define this quality. It makes sense to me for that definition to come down to quality of life if size is inadequate. No one said anything about whining. One's quality of life can suffer, but one can still cope - and celebrate. I see good coping skills as a strength, not a weakness. To me that strength should be acknowledged - with terms like BBW. These words sprung to life out of necessity; cause fat people needed them, not thin people. So why should thin people need to claim them? But if they really feel like these fat words are empowering then okay. It's a bit of a head scratcher to me, but whatever.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

I think 'Fat' can only truly be an internal and subjective concept. Like cors talked about being 'fat' above 85lbs and for some people who may have been 600lbs and lose weight to become 400lbs they may feel pretty thin at their new weight. I say that it has to be internal and subjective because even if the sense of being fat is geographical, we live in a global village where our perceptions of ourselves cannot just shift because we do. For example the person who has been chastised for being fat at 90lbs may always feel 'fat' even when they move to a place where they are deemed underweight. So if different societies cannot agree on what is fat then it becomes an internal model for people living within these societies. 
As to the question "what is a BBW?" I think it is a term constructed to sell pornography and to make people in personal ads sound less self deprocating. 
Why seperate beauty into catagories?? Why 'big' beautiful woman? Why not just Beautiful woman?
Beauty is subjective and so is big.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

olwen said:


> For me this is really simple. I wouldn't want to hear a white person claiming they are black. That just sounds ridiculous.


But Olwen... My soul IS black.
I love you sistah!!

*Just watched the secret life of bees*-So technically AM black.

Just adding a wee spin on this though- Why do people understand (well kinna sometimes) when someone says "I KNOW i am a boy on the inside" When on the outside they have a vagina and breasts? Maby some people's brains are programed to say they are another body shape e.g people with body dysmorphia or even people who become gainers because they feel they are ment to be fat. Hmm.. even though its a far stretch of the imagination and i AM kinna playing devils advacado here, maby some people 'just feel black'. Its more that just a colour, there are a whole load of conotations, cultural expectations...etc that people may identity more with than their own 'white' culture. Just as being a woman is MORE than just having tits and a vagina. You may not understand why someone might identify as being something they are not externally, though the way i see it is, that most of what we are and goes on with us is on the inside anyway, so does it really matter as to other peoples understandings of which ever way we decide to identify with and relate to our piece of meat?.


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## stan_der_man (Jun 14, 2009)

mergirl said:


> I think 'Fat' can only truly be an internal and subjective concept. Like cors talked about being 'fat' above 85lbs and for some people who may have been 600lbs and lose weight to become 400lbs they may feel pretty thin at their new weight. I say that it has to be internal and subjective because even if the sense of being fat is geographical, we live in a global village where our perceptions of ourselves cannot just shift because we do.
> 
> ...



Just an off the wall observation relating to this... Our daughter has recently discovered 'fat people' and is using the term 'fat' to describe people (a tall person, thin person, fat person... etc... she simply uses it as a descriptor... I dont' think she's latched onto the negative connotations yet...) What is interesting is that she seems to only recognize 'fat people' as being people with big bellies. She will describe a person who is even fatter but has fat in different places as either being 'tall' or 'big' something else. As Cors, Mergirl and others here have pointed out, it's all a matter of perspective and perception IMO. A BBW is whatever you make a BBW to be... it's simply another label in a sea of descriptors which are basically impossible to definitively define.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

fa_man_stan said:


> Just an off the wall observation relating to this... Our daughter has recently discovered 'fat people' and is using the term 'fat' to describe people (a tall person, thin person, fat person... etc... she simply uses it as a descriptor... I dont' think she's latched onto the negative connotations yet...) What is interesting is that she seems to only recognize 'fat people' as being people with big bellies. She will describe a person who is even fatter but has fat in different places as either being 'tall' or 'big' something else. As Cors, Mergirl and others here have pointed out, it's all a matter of perspective and perception IMO. A BBW is whatever you make a BBW to be... it's simply another label in a sea of descriptors which are basically impossible to definitively define.


haha..its kinna like when children socially construct the things that are around them, they have schemas in their heads to catagorise stuff, just to make the world less HUGE. My friend doesnt like spiders and freaks out and yells 'spiders' when she sees one. Her kid calls everything insect like "spider" -(in her head ..scary thing i dont like) She fell and was crying and yelling at her skint knee "spider". Yeah, my freind has fucked up her kid psychologically.. BUT we have learned something important grover and cookie monster.. ...Words are just words, it's the representations of them;the fears, experiences and teachings of others that make them a real experience.


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## superodalisque (Jun 14, 2009)

olwen said:


> Who said anything about focusing on the negative?
> 
> For me this is really simple. I wouldn't want to hear a white person claiming they are black. That just sounds ridiculous. To me it sounds equally ridiculous for a thin person to call themselves fat. But since fat is not as easy to define as race or nationality, then there has to be some way, somehow to define this quality. It makes sense to me for that definition to come down to quality of life if size is inadequate. No one said anything about whining. One's quality of life can suffer, but one can still cope - and celebrate. I see good coping skills as a strength, not a weakness. To me that strength should be acknowledged - with terms like BBW. These words sprung to life out of necessity; cause fat people needed them, not thin people. So why should thin people need to claim them? But if they really feel like these fat words are empowering then okay. It's a bit of a head scratcher to me, but whatever.



but who gets to decide who is what? i have relatives who are probably white if you look at the caucasian percentage of DNA. if you saw them you'd definitely assume they are white. but the thing is they identify as black. its family history and how our society has oreinted itself toward us. it is essentially how they feel. one thing i learned from that is no one can truly define who you are except you. other people can have opinions but you are truly the only one who knows how you feel or relate to the world. if a thin person feels like a BBW whats the big deal? maybe they were fat before. maybe they are the fattest person in ther community or social group. whatever it is that makes them relate--they do. its just another person in the right camp supporting us as far as i'm concerned. i don't think it matters as long as the support and love is heartfelt and genuine. the black community learned that a long time ago when even the slave masters children were sold but men who weren't even thier fathers and did not look like them in the least took them in and loved them like thier own.

it was just me talking about the focus on the negative. its in dims, the media at large and society. there is a lot of poor poor pitiful me encouraged even when its unwarranted. sure its good to vent when your sad and be angry sometimes. but on balance there tends to be too much of it in general and thats why people have the negative impressions about BBWs that they do. in my personal opinion, in general we feed right into it. the joyous things we do are kept hush hush under raps and secretive for the most part because we are so afraid that someone will make fun of us or say something negative. i remember how much younger dimmers were derided for posting pix being young and fun at bashes and got so many negative comments. so now thier lively fun filled posts are not to be seen here. a lot of nice things that prove we have a life like anyone else have been stopped like that because instead of being glad that they allowed people to live vicariously through them, people who didn't have that opportunity at that age, got jealous and called them attention whores etc... so now they have basically gone elsewhere, who can blame them?


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## olwen (Jun 14, 2009)

mergirl said:


> But Olwen... My soul IS black.
> I love you sistah!!
> 
> *Just watched the secret life of bees*-So technically AM black.
> ...



I can understand why someone would feel like one gender on the inside despite what's on the outside. That makes total sense to me since so much about gender is a social construct. There are aspects of fatness that are socialized as well, and the way we are socialized about it makes it seem ridiculous to me that thin people would so easily identify with fatness when there are so many other cues from society that they are more accepted than not. I know it's hard for people in general to just sort of believe in and accept themselves, but common sense has to kick in sometime.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

Best post ever!!!!..erm..i dont know how to do an up arrow..:wubu::wubu:
hmm.... You fat black people sure are smart. Brains, soul and heart must be something to do with body mass and skin epidermis or something!!??
*Oh i was talking about super o's post.. but Olwen got in there first!*
(off to read Olwen)


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## olwen (Jun 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> but who gets to decide who is what? i have relatives who are probably white if you look at the caucasian percentage of DNA. if you saw them you'd definitely assume they are white. but the thing is they identify as black. its family history and how our society has oreinted itself toward us. it is essentially how they feel. one thing i learned from that is no one can truly define who you are except you. other people can have opinions but you are truly the only one who knows how you feel or relate to the world. if a thin person feels like a BBW whats the big deal? maybe they were fat before. maybe they are the fattest person in ther community or social group. whatever it is that makes them relate--they do. its just another person in the right camp supporting us as far as i'm concerned. i don't think it matters as long as the support and love is heartfelt and genuine. the black community learned that a long time ago when even the slave masters children were sold but men who weren't even thier fathers and did not look like them in the least took them in and loved them with all of their heart.
> 
> as for associating BBW with negativity energy there is a lot of it. its in dims, the media at large and society. there is a lot of poor poor pitiful me. sure its good to vent and be angry sometimes. but on balance there tends to be too much of it in general and thats why people have the negative impressions about BBWs that they do.in my personal opinion, in general we feed right into it. the joyous things we do are kept hush hush under raps and secretive for the most part because we are so afraid that someone will make fun of us.



Obviously, I'm not talking about people who are of mixed heritage or people who were fat and became thin. I can't believe I have to be this specific. Obviously, if thin people want to support fat people they ought to, and they would get no argument from me. I'm not talking about those people either. 

Ugh, I give up. Like I said, I'm a tree.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

olwen said:


> I can understand why someone would feel like one gender on the inside despite what's on the outside. That makes total sense to me since so much about gender is a social construct. There are aspects of fatness that are socialized as well, and the way we are socialized about it makes it seem ridiculous to me that thin people would so easily identify with fatness when there are so many other cues from society that they are more accepted than not. I know it's hard for people in general to just sort of believe in and accept themselves, but common sense has to kick in sometime.



Which society? If you are talking about the society you were born and bred in then yes, you can have common sense regarding certain things, such as 'what fat is'.
The fact that you can accept people feeling a different gender on the inside but not a different size or colour may be a because of your culture's social discourse at this specific time. Perhaps in the future people will be getting belly implants and stretchmark tatoo's. i wait with baited breath!


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## superodalisque (Jun 14, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Which society? If you are talking about the society you were born and bred in then yes, you can have common sense regarding certain things, such as 'what fat is'.
> The fact that you can accept people feeling a different gender on the inside but not a different size or colour may be a because of your culture's social discourse at this specific time. Perhaps in the future people will be getting belly implants and stretchmark tatoo's. i wait with baited breath!



ahhh the fluidity of life!!!!


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

olwen said:


> Obviously, I'm not talking about people who are of mixed heritage or people who were fat and became thin. I can't believe I have to be this specific. Obviously, if thin people want to support fat people they ought to, and they would get no argument from me. I'm not talking about those people either.
> 
> Ugh, I give up. Like I said, I'm a tree.



Don't give up. 
What is the difference between those with mixed heritage who have been fat and Black/white people who have only been thin? Experience. We cannot ever experience what another has gone through:white,black,gay,straight,fat,thin,abused, not abused, loved, unloved...and onto infinity..where we will find the individual... 
who are we to question anothers experience. One person of any gender/race/sexuality will have a totally different experience that someone else who ticks the same boxes. Why do people defend lables? Especially those who have done them no good in the past?


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> ahhh the fluidity of life!!!!


Just like spunk sistah!!!


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Just like spunk sistah!!!


Super o. I am an abomination!  lmao
i should have said "like vagina juice" too.. my biological piss take metaphors are getting more and more sexist these days!!!


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## superodalisque (Jun 14, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Don't give up.
> What is the difference between those with mixed heritage who have been fat and Black/white people who have only been thin? Experience. We cannot ever experience what another has gone through:white,black,gay,straight,fat,thin,abused, not abused, loved, unloved...and onto infinity..where we will find the individual...
> who are we to question anothers experience. One person of any gender/race/sexuality will have a totally different experience that someone else who ticks the same boxes. Why do people defend lables? Especially those who have done them no good in the past?



i agree. i think basically all we can do is respect it when someone does us the favor of telling us what thier identity is since there is no way possible to just look at someone and truly know them. and if we don't listen it means we don't really care who they are enough to know them . all we care about is what we want them to be, and whats most comfortable for us.


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## Captain Save (Jun 14, 2009)

From the most recent developments in the conversation I'm getting the impression that the title BBW, while it can be assumed by the proud wearer, is something that might be most efficiently used in a cultural arena within general areas of the world to promote understanding of the individual in question. There will likely be no global agreement for the definition of this title; the numbers certainly won't match up in the present day. Even in the general area of the world there are only gray areas, and the reasonable person standard will have to be a guideline for determining who would most likely be labelled a BBW by others. Definitive numbers simply won't work, only variables, and this goes for race as well.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i agree. i think basically all we can do is respect it when someone does us the favor of telling us what thier identity is since there is no way possible to just look at someone and truly know them. and if we don't listen it means we don't really care who they are enough to know them . all we care about is what we want them to be, and whats most comfortable for us.


Yes!! What is black or fat? The conotations and identities are too many to count. We can be many shades..where does white stop and black begin? Where does thin merge into fat? How far do stereotypes define us..and where does that end? When we begin to understand these things we will stop fighting about them. Like you said, respect is the key.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> Definitive numbers simply won't work, only variables, and this goes for race as well.


Captain save, you just made me proud to be black!! :wubu::happy:


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## Captain Save (Jun 14, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Super o. I am an abomination!  lmao
> i should have said "like vagina juice" too.. my biological piss take metaphors are getting more and more sexist these days!!!



Fanny batter was the by far the term I've heard so far.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

muwahahahaha.. yes.."Fanny batter" is my personal favorite. My swedish friend thought for years i said "fanny butter".!! lmao It doesnt really work in "American" cause "fanny batter" would maby be erm the squits??


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## superodalisque (Jun 14, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> From the most recent developments in the conversation I'm getting the impression that the title BBW, while it can be assumed by the proud wearer, is something that might be most efficiently used in a cultural arena within general areas of the world to promote understanding of the individual in question. There will likely be no global agreement for the definition of this title; the numbers certainly won't match up in the present day. Even in the general area of the world there are only gray areas, and the reasonable person standard will have to be a guideline for determining who would most likely be labelled a BBW by others. Definitive numbers simply won't work, only variables, and this goes for race as well.



thats reasonable but also problematic. who is a reasonable person who will decide who is a BBW? and which reasonable person is going to decide who that reasonable person is? and so on and so on and so on. isn't it simplier to leave it up to the person themselves. whats so wrong with self definition. after all isn't SA about not standing in front of anyone and allowing them to tell you who you are?


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## Captain Save (Jun 14, 2009)

I always thought of fanny batter as something similar to pancake or waffle batter, best enjoyed with syrup, butter, whipped cream, or fruit topping; IHOP anyone?


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> I always thought of fanny batter as something similar to pancake or waffle batter, best enjoyed with syrup, butter, whipped cream, or fruit topping; IHOP anyone?


All i shall say is ....erm You are very very right!!!!


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> thats reasonable but also problematic. who is a reasonable person who will decide who is a BBW? and which reasonable person is going to decide who that reasonable person is? and so on and so on and so on. isn't it simplier to leave it up to the person themselves. whats so wrong with self definition. after all isn't SA about not standing in front of anyone and allowing them to tell you who you are?


Let me decide!!
Ok..i decide that anyone who thinks "i am fat" or indeed "i am anything" is.
They think therfore they am! lmao
I honestly think this debate of what =fat is very like the trans acceptance into the lgb't' movement. What we feel on the inside is more important that what is on the outside AND its whats counted! 
What happened to "beauty is only skin deep", "you are only as old as you feel" etc..
Super O=yes!!!
Accept people for who they say they are.. not what you see and think they are.


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## superodalisque (Jun 14, 2009)

i could do with a rutti tutti fresh and fruity myself right now:eat2:


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

Well a rutti tutti freash n fruity would taste just as sweet be you gay (all the plethoras of bi) gay, Black (all the plathoras of colour) white, male (brain wise all the spectrum of gender) female...etc..I AM SURE!!


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

hmm there are just too many plethoras and spectrums!!


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## Captain Save (Jun 14, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> thats reasonable but also problematic. who is a reasonable person who will decide who is a BBW? and which reasonable person is going to decide who that reasonable person is? and so on and so on and so on. isn't it simplier to leave it up to the person themselves. whats so wrong with self definition. after all isn't SA about not standing in front of anyone and allowing them to tell you who you are?



I understand the thinking behind what you are saying, but it is not definitive to use the formula I described; it is only to be used as a guideline for the purpose of common understanding, i.e. what would other people call BBW to eliminate misunderstanding? As far as size acceptance is concerned, I never got the notion that it was about eliminating anyone else's terms; I always thought it was about respect, that quality that is often missing in how larger people are treated, both by individuals and by society at large.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> I understand the thinking behind what you are saying, but it is not definitive to use the formula I described; it is only to be used as a guideline for the purpose of common understanding, i.e. what would other people call BBW to eliminate misunderstanding? As far as size acceptance is concerned, I never got the notion that it was about eliminating anyone else's terms; I always thought it was about respect, that quality that is often missing in how larger people are treated, both by individuals and by society at large.


I still think its more about being able to google porn with more ease.


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## Captain Save (Jun 14, 2009)

As long as there is plenty of fanny batter and a spatula, I'm in.


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## mergirl (Jun 14, 2009)

Captain Save said:


> As long as there is plenty of fanny batter and a spatula, I'm in.


Sure! I'm think this is one point that we are all agree on!


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## steadydecline (Jun 18, 2009)

I don't like the term BBW, because I don't really like calling myself "beautiful".
The term "fat girl" works fine for me.


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## Tad (Jun 18, 2009)

steadydecline said:


> I don't like the term BBW, because I don't really like calling myself "beautiful".
> The term "fat girl" works fine for me.



Two comments:

1) I have no doubt that to lots of people you are indeed beautiful. I think the intent of putting that second 'B' in BBW was to counter the 'fat & ugly' terminology, and put forth the idea that everyone can be beautiful, at whatever size.

2) kind of back to the whole point on this thread, a lot of people would not consider you to be fat, I think. Maybe in the precise social milieu in which you come from you feel fatter than most, but I'd guess you wouldn't have trouble with a size 13/14 from mainstream stores? 

Or to look at it from another angle, according to this web site: http://www.halls.md/body-mass-index/bmi.htm using the info in your introductory post, you are in the 66th weight percentile for your age and height. That is, a third of the women your age weight more for their height. 

Which comes back to the whole question of who says if someone is fat? The person who feels fat? Or each observer?

I thought what Cors said was really to the point:



> Hmm, I see fat as a descriptor (subjective) and fat as an identity (personal) as two different but related things. Most people who look fat identify as fat, but there are fat people who do not and then there are thin people who do.



Not trying to say you should not identify as fat, just using your describing yourself that way to illustrate how difficult this is!


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## steadydecline (Jun 18, 2009)

edx said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 1) I have no doubt that to lots of people you are indeed beautiful. I think the intent of putting that second 'B' in BBW was to counter the 'fat & ugly' terminology, and put forth the idea that everyone can be beautiful, at whatever size.
> 
> 2) kind of back to the whole point on this thread, a lot of people would not consider you to be fat, I think. Maybe in the precise social milieu in which you come from you feel fatter than most, but I'd guess you wouldn't have trouble with a size 13/14 from mainstream stores?



Point taken. Though, BBW is a term that can't really be used for everyone. Not every big woman can be beautiful, just like not every thin woman is beautiful, etc, etc. There are a lot of factors that go into that (self-perception, as well as, yes, how other people view you). Don't get me wrong, I'm not ugly, and I'm not fishing for compliments, I just feel kind of egotistical using "beautiful" to describe myself.

Actually, my size is around a 16 or 18 (my weight tends to fluctuate, I go from 160 to 180 and back at the drop of a hat). And yes, I have been called "fat" (or "curvy", "chubby", "thick" and all of those "nice way of saying fat" words). I just prefer "fat". Anything but "obese" is good...I don't even like using that word to describe people who ARE classified as obese.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 18, 2009)

steadydecline said:


> Point taken. Though, BBW is a term that can't really be used for everyone. Not every big woman can be beautiful, just like not every thin woman is beautiful, etc, etc. There are a lot of factors that go into that (self-perception, as well as, yes, how other people view you). *Don't get me wrong, I'm not ugly, and I'm not fishing for compliments, I just feel kind of egotistical using "beautiful" to describe myself.
> *
> Actually, my size is around a 16 or 18 (my weight tends to fluctuate, I go from 160 to 180 and back at the drop of a hat). And yes, I have been called "fat" (or "curvy", "chubby", "thick" and all of those "nice way of saying fat" words). I just prefer "fat". Anything but "obese" is good...I don't even like using that word to describe people who ARE classified as obese.



I hear where you're coming from....but then again, many people outside of Dims don't seem to mind automatically dubbing me "ugly", "sexless", "dumb", "lazy", "uncaring about myself", "nasty", etc.....all because I am fat. 
Eff that shit.....I am beautiful...at any weight. I don't mind getting called or "assumed to be lovely" once in a while....even if it's just in some generic terminology. 
It's simply meant to inspire people to think "differently" about bigger people.....I don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally. Just how I see it.....


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## katherine22 (Jun 18, 2009)

mergirl said:


> haha..its kinna like when children socially construct the things that are around them, they have schemas in their heads to catagorise stuff, just to make the world less HUGE. My friend doesnt like spiders and freaks out and yells 'spiders' when she sees one. Her kid calls everything insect like "spider" -(in her head ..scary thing i dont like) She fell and was crying and yelling at her skint knee "spider". Yeah, my freind has fucked up her kid psychologically.. BUT we have learned something important grover and cookie monster.. ...Words are just words, it's the representations of them;the fears, experiences and teachings of others that make them a real experience.


 
Children are not alone in socially constructing reality. Everyone does it to some degree. This thread points out the problem of over extending the meaning of language. Language only goes so far in capturing experience. It is arrogant to suggest that someone who has not experienced the same experiences as another could not understand another's experience. I do not have to literally jump off the Empire State building to have an idea as to how it might feel hitting the ground.


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## mergirl (Jun 18, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Children are not alone in socially constructing reality. Everyone does it to some degree. This thread points out the problem of over extending the meaning of language. Language only goes so far in capturing experience. It is arrogant to suggest that someone who has not experienced the same experiences as another could not understand another's experience. I do not have to literally jump off the Empire State building to have an idea as to how it might feel hitting the ground.


I know it's not just children who socially construct reality i was talking about one occassion where a child did and was using is to make a point. Who was suggesting that someone who has not had the same experiences as others could not understand anothers experience? I think Olwen said that she found it difficult when people who were not what she considered fat, said that they were fat but i think that is a seperate issue. As for the knowing how it will feel to hit the ground after you jump off the empire states building.. I think its actually a difficult thing to even comprehend because no one has been able to share thier experiences of doing this. In the other cases we have talked about in this thread at least people have been able to tell thier stories.


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## StarWitness (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm sorry, you guys lost me somewhere around "fanny batter."


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## Captain Save (Jun 19, 2009)

edx said:


> Which comes back to the whole question of who says if someone is fat? The person who feels fat? Or each observer?



I think that fat could be used in either case. It is nigh unarguable to hear a lady complain of weight gain at any particular juncture, especially when she is unhappy with how her favorite garments are fitting; the rest of us most likely feel a brief wave of exasperation as well as empathy, and continue about our business. At the same time, a woman who is unable to find clothing large enough to fit her in plus size stores might be a safe person on which to affix the label 'fat.'

The term 'beautiful' is much more complex. Is it a judgement of others of a woman's physical features? Is it the style and grace by which she adorns herself, with cosmetics, hair, and clothing? Is it measured in the catcalls from the construction site when she passes by? Is it inspired by the jealousy of female colleagues at work? How about the dead certainty with which she ignores these judgements because her confidence and self esteem are as firm as the bedrock on which civilizations rise and fall? If I had to consider the implications of her self esteem as well as the judgement of others, I would have to say that they go hand in hand. In this case, reality is socially constructed by both parties, and no pulverized corpses on the sidewalk remain to tell the story.

And StarWitness, we'll save some fanny batter and a spatula for you too. Let us know if you want butter, whipped cream, syrup, and/or fruit topping as well. 
Just me being silly!


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## katherine22 (Jun 19, 2009)

mergirl said:


> I know it's not just children who socially construct reality i was talking about one occassion where a child did and was using is to make a point. Who was suggesting that someone who has not had the same experiences as others could not understand anothers experience? I think Olwen said that she found it difficult when people who were not what she considered fat, said that they were fat but i think that is a seperate issue. As for the knowing how it will feel to hit the ground after you jump off the empire states building.. I think its actually a difficult thing to even comprehend because no one has been able to share thier experiences of doing this. In the other cases we have talked about in this thread at least people have been able to tell thier stories.



My understanding of this thread is how the meaning of fat changes depending on the context of where it is discussed. If thin people are talking about fat the standard of who is fat will be different than if a fat admirer is tallking about fat. Context contributes to the meaning of the word since the meaning seems not to be static. Perhaps I am cognitively limited although of sufficent imagination to know how it might feel when hitting the ground from falling off the empire state building. Isn't that referred to as empathy? You cannot understand someone's experience from observation or are they compelled to share it with you verbally.


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## olwen (Jun 19, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> Children are not alone in socially constructing reality. Everyone does it to some degree. This thread points out the problem of over extending the meaning of language. Language only goes so far in capturing experience. It is arrogant to suggest that someone who has not experienced the same experiences as another could not understand another's experience. I do not have to literally jump off the Empire State building to have an idea as to how it might feel hitting the ground.





mergirl said:


> I know it's not just children who socially construct reality i was talking about one occassion where a child did and was using is to make a point. Who was suggesting that someone who has not had the same experiences as others could not understand anothers experience? I think Olwen said that she found it difficult when people who were not what she considered fat, said that they were fat but i think that is a seperate issue. As for the knowing how it will feel to hit the ground after you jump off the empire states building.. I think its actually a difficult thing to even comprehend because no one has been able to share thier experiences of doing this. In the other cases we have talked about in this thread at least people have been able to tell thier stories.



This IS difficult. It is and isn't a separate issue. They are both related to some degree, I think. I think when I have to explain to thin people why I can't walk as fast or why I can't go to that restaurant with the tight booths, or why I can't do some of the things they do, I know it's because they can't imagine what it's like to be in a fat body. I have thin friends that I've known for over a decade now, who still don't understand some things, or don't remember even after I've explained....in general, it happens a lot with thin people, that lack of knowledge....and some of those things are too embarrassing to try to explain. It's not arrogance from which I speak, it's from experience. Sometimes they just can't understand, and sometimes I don't bother to try to explain because I know it will be difficult for them to empathize, and I don't have the energy to see that kind of conversation thru. Sometimes these experiences are difficult to explain even to people on the smaller side of fat, moreover it's sometimes scary, and those horrified looks are difficult to see. Does it happen all the time? No, but in my experience it happens more often than not. 

Shared experiences usually are easier to empathize with. It's the ones that aren't, that make this concept difficult for me sometimes. So, I'm forced, again to ask the question what does it mean to be fat? And you know, the answer either eludes me or I don't like it. I'm not yet sure which. And yes, I do understand that the answer, whatever it means, doesn't mean that some experiences are more legitimate than others, it just means that some answers are more painful, and therefore difficult or problematic to deal with or explain. It seems nothing about fatness is ever easy.


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## msbard90 (Jun 19, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> My understanding of this thread is how the meaning of fat changes depending on the context of where it is discussed. If thin people are talking about fat the standard of who is fat will be different than if a fat admirer is tallking about fat. Context contributes to the meaning of the word since the meaning seems not to be static. Perhaps I am crazy but thankfully of sufficent imagination to know how it might feel when hitting the ground from falling off the empire state building. Isn't that referred to as empathy? You cannot understand someone's experience from observation or are they compelled to shared it with you verbally.



very true.. Hell, when I was 130 lbs my sister used to torment me and call me obese daily, but obviously thats not true. She'd call me chubby, ugly, and obese every single day, but thats because anyone who isn't as skinny or skinnier than her is obese in her mind. But when you're only 10, and everyone around you is super thin it really messes with you because you start to believe it. Now that I am actually bigger in size, I feel better. I'd rather have all the insults be of truth than that tormenting bullcrap I went through as a kid.


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## katherine22 (Jun 19, 2009)

msbard90 said:


> very true.. Hell, when I was 130 lbs my sister used to torment me and call me obese daily, but obviously thats not true. She'd call me chubby, ugly, and obese every single day, but thats because anyone who isn't as skinny or skinnier than her is obese in her mind. But when you're only 10, and everyone around you is super thin it really messes with you because you start to believe it. Now that I am actually bigger in size, I feel better. I'd rather have all the insults be of truth than that tormenting bullcrap I went through as a kid.



MsBard - You are a lovely young woman and how fortunate for you to find this website with people who will support you. It may save you years of self-hatred.


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## mergirl (Jun 19, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> You cannot understand someone's experience from observation or are they compelled to share it with you verbally.



You know what splat feels like? People are not compelled to share anything verbally, though it helps. Empathy is not 'knowing' how someone/something feels, it is about 'trying' to.


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## mergirl (Jun 19, 2009)

StarWitness said:


> I'm sorry, you guys lost me somewhere around "fanny batter."


Fanny Batter is the most important bit so no worries.


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## William (Jun 19, 2009)

Hi 

I think that the word Acceptance in Fat and Size Acceptance leads us not to want to discount the experiences of smaller Fat People or even chubby people. Still if you are close or over 300 lbs then your experiences will be different than smaller people.

I think that what some people have to learn is to do is share their experiences without comparing them (rating) them directly to smaller plus sized people.

Being about 305 I do identify with the stories of people my size or larger, but I empathize the experiences of far smaller people.

William 





olwen said:


> This IS difficult. It is and isn't a separate issue. They are both related to some degree, I think. I think when I have to explain to thin people why I can't walk as fast or why I can't go to that restaurant with the tight booths, or why I can't do some of the things they do, I know it's because they can't imagine what it's like to be in a fat body. I have thin friends that I've known for over a decade now, who still don't understand some things, or don't remember even after I've explained....in general, it happens a lot with thin people, that lack of knowledge....and some of those things are too embarrassing to try to explain. It's not arrogance from which I speak, it's from experience. Sometimes they just can't understand, and sometimes I don't bother to try to explain because I know it will be difficult for them to empathize, and I don't have the energy to see that kind of conversation thru. Sometimes these experiences are difficult to explain even to people on the smaller side of fat, moreover it's sometimes scary, and those horrified looks are difficult to see. Does it happen all the time? No, but in my experience it happens more often than not.
> 
> Shared experiences usually are easier to empathize with. It's the ones that aren't, that make this concept difficult for me sometimes. So, I'm forced, again to ask the question what does it mean to be fat? And you know, the answer either eludes me or I don't like it. I'm not yet sure which. And yes, I do understand that the answer, whatever it means, doesn't mean that some experiences are more legitimate than others, it just means that some answers are more painful, and therefore difficult or problematic to deal with or explain. It seems nothing about fatness is ever easy.


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## msbard90 (Jun 19, 2009)

katherine22 said:


> MsBard - You are a lovely young woman and how fortunate for you to find this website with people who will support you. It may save you years of self-hatred.




aww thank you!!! Its the people like you that make the world go round


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## olwen (Jun 20, 2009)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> I think that the word Acceptance in Fat and Size Acceptance leads us not to want to discount the experiences of smaller Fat People or even chubby people. Still if you are close or over 300 lbs then your experiences will be different than smaller people.
> 
> ...



That's all true, but the problem for me is the definition of smaller size. (since where fat starts is often confusing) Someone who's really fat and looses 50lbs is still really fat, but it seems a thin person who gains 50lbs can't still be thin, they automatically become fat. That just seems unfair(?) to me, so I'm just not sure where fat begins in terms of pounds or stone or whatever, for various reasons, but after having a conversation today with an academic fat woman who's writing a book about how the internet influences how women think about their bodies I got to thinking that maybe a good way to really define where fat starts is when people begin to become invisible. 

Invisible probably would mean something different to someone struggling with anorexia than it would to someone who isn't (and I'm not saying thin people are anorexic, just using it as an example cause this academic brought up pro-ana sites earlier). I think to me invisible is what happens when people start to pretend you aren't there or when you can't find ways to accommodate your size - whatever that is, and whatever that means to the individual. I think this definition covers a wide range of people, and excludes people who would fret over 5 or 10 vanity pounds, so it makes sense to me for the time being.


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## William (Jun 20, 2009)

Hi Olwen

I think that Society has two types of meanings for Fat. The first means that you have gained too much weight and the second and more serve means that you have gained too much weight and you are morbidly obese.

Today Society does not use the words husky, stout, portly or heavy to describe people any more, there is just Fat and the Medical and News Industry are mainly responsible for this.

William





olwen said:


> That's all true, but the problem for me is the definition of smaller size. (since where fat starts is often confusing) Someone who's really fat and looses 50lbs is still really fat, but it seems a thin person who gains 50lbs can't still be thin, they automatically become fat. That just seems unfair(?) to me, so I'm just not sure where fat begins in terms of pounds or stone or whatever, for various reasons, but after having a conversation today with an academic fat woman who's writing a book about how the internet influences how women think about their bodies I got to thinking that maybe a good way to really define where fat starts is when people begin to become invisible.
> 
> Invisible probably would mean something different to someone struggling with anorexia than it would to someone who isn't (and I'm not saying thin people are anorexic, just using it as an example cause this academic brought up pro-ana sites earlier). I think to me invisible is what happens when people start to pretend you aren't there or when you can't find ways to accommodate your size - whatever that is, and whatever that means to the individual. I think this definition covers a wide range of people, and excludes people who would fret over 5 or 10 vanity pounds, so it makes sense to me for the time being.


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## olwen (Jun 20, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> I think that Society has two types of meanings for Fat. The first means that you have gained too much weight and the second and more serve means that you have gained too much weight and you are morbidly obese.
> 
> ...



I personally prefer the terms fat or big to all those other euphemisms. I also hated big boned and pudgy as a kid.


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## tonynyc (Jun 20, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> Today Society does not use the words husky, stout, portly or heavy to describe people any more, there is just Fat and the Medical and News Industry are mainly responsible for this.
> 
> William




*
William 

Very True!!! I only see the terms "Husky" , "Stout" or "Portly" when I go the Big & Tall Store to look at suits. 

Yes The "News" Industry is the culprit for the use of other words (along with "Fat" as you had mentioned) . We have such gems as "Hulking" ,"Burly" or "Big" to describe BHM. 
*


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## William (Jun 20, 2009)

Hi 

Some people still use the expression "Big Man", but I have not heard anyone use "Big Sista" in years.

William




tonynyc said:


> *
> William
> 
> Very True!!! I only see the terms "Husky" , "Stout" or "Portly" when I go the Big & Tall Store to look at suits.
> ...


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## mergirl (Jun 20, 2009)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> Some people still use the expression "Big Man", but I have not heard anyone use "Big Sista" in years.
> 
> William


In scotland you hear "So and so is a big lassy isn't she?". Also people get called "Big Anne or Big brenda", the weird thing is it can be because they are fat but it can also be if they have a big or loud personality too.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 20, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *
> William
> 
> Very True!!! I only see the terms "Husky" , "Stout" or "Portly" when I go the Big & Tall Store to look at suits.
> ...




Hulking, Burly or Big are definitely not bad words when it comes to describing a man, Tony.....:batting:


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## William (Jun 20, 2009)

Hi Mer

That is cute and heartening because of the crossover of the meanings of the titles.

Next Saturday my city is having its Scottish Festival, if I am in the park I will look for Brenda  

William

Round Hill Games http://www.roundhill.org/



mergirl said:


> In scotland you hear "So and so is a big lassy isn't she?". Also people get called "Big Anne or Big brenda", the weird thing is it can be because they are fat but it can also be if they have a big or loud personality too.


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## mergirl (Jun 20, 2009)

Oh nice! I'm sure Big brenda will be there..she loves festivals!


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## mossystate (Jun 20, 2009)

I was sometimes quite shy when I was a kid. I also had, in certain situations, quite the ' vocabulary '. I dooooo believe it was my Mom who once called me.....Truckstop Annie. My mouth has always been a bit on the chubby side.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 20, 2009)

mossystate said:


> I was sometimes quite shy when I was a kid. I also had, in certain situations, quite the ' vocabulary '. I dooooo believe it was my Mom who once called me.....Truckstop Annie. My mouth has always been a bit on the chubby side.



Lol, my father came to visit once upon a time and told me that I curse like a sailor. I told him that Mom taught me well......


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## mossystate (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Lol, my father came to visit once upon a time and told me that I curse like a sailor. I told him that Mom taught me well......



 Good job, Mom.

My Mom and Dad were not big cursers. They would let go of a damn...hell...an occasional shit. I do have my Mom on video saying...fuck. Doesn't get much better than that.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 20, 2009)

mossystate said:


> Good job, Mom.
> 
> My Mom and Dad were not big cursers. They would let go of a damn...hell...an occasional shit. I do have my Mom on video saying...fuck. Doesn't get much better than that.



My mom doesn't curse that much actually- but would say some really inappropriate things when on one of her "rampages" at times. She really gave out way too much information about things to her kids and that is her biggest crime in that arena.


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## tonynyc (Jun 20, 2009)

mossystate said:


> Good job, Mom.
> 
> My Mom and Dad were not big cursers. They would let go of a damn...hell...an occasional shit. I do have my Mom on video saying...fuck. Doesn't get much better than that.



Doesn't get any better - I bet it way a classic - even better when it happens on Live TV

WNBCTV- Anchor Sue Simmons 'Dropping the F Bomb'


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## tonynyc (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Hulking, Burly or Big are definitely not bad words when it comes to describing a man, Tony.....:batting:



*Hmm how about "Squat" I often see this term used to describe a Short Big Man*





Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Lol, my father came to visit once upon a time and told me that I curse like a sailor. I told him that Mom taught me well......



*
Kind of neat when you combine your wonderful accent and the curse word. That's priceless
*


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## olwen (Jun 20, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *Hmm how about "Squat" I often see this term used to describe a Short Big Man*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What about "stout?" Are BHMs ever referred to as stout?


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## tonynyc (Jun 20, 2009)

olwen said:


> What about "stout?" Are BHMs ever referred to as stout?



Yep, great find Olwen


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## mergirl (Jun 21, 2009)

My favorite word ever is voluptuous. To me it means juicy and rounded, though i guess to most it means that kinna hourglass big breasted look. To me i just like the onomatapoyic way the word sounds, like velvet, juicyness and plump ripe curvation. Also, women seem to enjoy hearing it "oooh i love how your soo voluptuous" i imagine more than.. "ooh i love your morbid obesity", which is a term you hear more often but just sounds horrible. I wonder how much of the repulsion/sexyness of a word comes from its actual sound when we say it and its conotations. I used two obvious extremes there..one Romantic and the other clinical, but you could get the same person being described as the same thing by different people in different contexts and both would have different meanings to that person. I think 'fat' is a weird one because some people enbrace it and some dont..So its hard to know where to stand. Where as if you asked someone if they would prefer to be called voluptuous or morbidly obese, i'm pretty sure they would pick the first. They are words for the same thing (kinna) comming from different social perspectives.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 21, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *Hmm how about "Squat" I often see this term used to describe a Short Big Man*
> 
> 
> *
> ...



Squat just seems outright insulting.....



olwen said:


> What about "stout?" Are BHMs ever referred to as stout?



Stout? It's okay....but not really an adjective most people would want to hear in reference to themselves, I imagine. 



mergirl said:


> *My favorite word ever is voluptuous*. To me it means juicy and rounded, though i guess to most it means that kinna hourglass big breasted look. To me i just like the onomatapoyic way the word sounds, like velvet, juicyness and plump ripe curvation. Also, women seem to enjoy hearing it "oooh i love how your soo voluptuous" i imagine more than.. "ooh i love your morbid obesity", which is a term you hear more often but just sounds horrible. I wonder how much of the repulsion/sexyness of a word comes from its actual sound when we say it and its conotations. I used two obvious extremes there..one Romantic and the other clinical, but you could get the same person being described as the same thing by different people in different contexts and both would have different meanings to that person. I think 'fat' is a weird one because some people enbrace it and some dont..So its hard to know where to stand. Where as if you asked someone if they would prefer to be called voluptuous or morbidly obese, i'm pretty sure they would pick the first. They are words for the same thing (kinna) comming from different social perspectives.



There we have it.....Mergirl definitely knows how to talk a woman up. Read and learn fellas.....

I also think Voluptuous (with a capital V  ) is one hella sexy word....and would feel flattered if it was used in context to myself. :bow:


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## olwen (Jun 21, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Squat just seems outright insulting.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know, I had to think about where I encountered that word the most, and I came up with fantasy novels. The dwarves in those novels are often described as stout. But the dwarves in those novels are also fierce warriors and builders who know the secrets of mountains. They seemed like strong men and women to me. If a dwarf came at me with a battle axe, I'd run. LOL It never seemed to have a negative connotation for me because of that I think.


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## t3h_n00b (Jun 21, 2009)

i'd like to know if "thin" women above average height fall into the category of BBW? After all, they have similar experiences in terms of ridicule, ostracization, etc. Their gender identities are often challenged as they are often mistaken for transvestites. Surely "BBW" has a fat-centric connotation, but in terms of its definition, i don't see how it can not also refer to tall women.


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## William (Jun 21, 2009)

Today the word Stout is only used when Big Men go Clothes Shopping!


http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=big+mens+clothing+stout&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&fp=Qmi82AtOO98


William




Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Stout? It's okay....but not really an adjective most people would want to hear in reference to themselves, I imagine.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 21, 2009)

olwen said:


> You know, I had to think about where I encountered that word the most, and I came up with fantasy novels. The dwarves in those novels are often described as stout. But the dwarves in those novels are also fierce warriors and builders who know the secrets of mountains. They seemed like strong men and women to me. If a dwarf came at me with a battle axe, I'd run. LOL It never seemed to have a negative connotation for me because of that I think.



It's negative for me because...


I'm a little teapot, short but stout.....






:doh:


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## tonynyc (Jun 21, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Squat just seems outright insulting.....



*GEF: 
I've seen "Squat" used (other than the Exercise) is to describe a type of physique in weightlifting circles that is : Shorter limbs in proportion to one's Height (Thick Arms & Legs) -Barrel Chested. As you stated,It just sounds insulting- not initimidating like "Hulking" 
*


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## Cors (Jun 21, 2009)

mergirl said:


> My favorite word ever is voluptuous. To me it means juicy and rounded, though i guess to most it means that kinna hourglass big breasted look. To me i just like the onomatapoyic way the word sounds, like velvet, juicyness and plump ripe curvation. Also, women seem to enjoy hearing it "oooh i love how your soo voluptuous" i imagine more than.. "ooh i love your morbid obesity", which is a term you hear more often but just sounds horrible. I wonder how much of the repulsion/sexyness of a word comes from its actual sound when we say it and its conotations. I used two obvious extremes there..one Romantic and the other clinical, but you could get the same person being described as the same thing by different people in different contexts and both would have different meanings to that person. I think 'fat' is a weird one because some people enbrace it and some dont..So its hard to know where to stand. Where as if you asked someone if they would prefer to be called voluptuous or morbidly obese, i'm pretty sure they would pick the first. They are words for the same thing (kinna) comming from different social perspectives.



I agree, the word sounds nice but more often than not, it seems to be an euphemism for something else. This is especially true outside of the size-acceptance/fat-loving scene. 

People here generally describe me (size 0, G cup, no hips or ass) as voluptuous and curvy. It irks me because it is pretty obvious that it is just a polite way of saying "wow her boobs are huge". When the same word is used on a BBW or SSBBW by a non-FA, it is often an euphemism for "wow she's fat". Most Asians consider me fat and it bothers the hell out of me when I see them scrambling to find a "nice" way to tell me that I am just.... uhh..... voluptuous! Curvy! Womanly! I would rather that those people just call me fat. I still hate the word obese though.


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## Teleute (Jun 21, 2009)

t3h_n00b said:


> i'd like to know if "thin" women above average height fall into the category of BBW? After all, they have similar experiences in terms of ridicule, ostracization, etc. Their gender identities are often challenged as they are often mistaken for transvestites. Surely "BBW" has a fat-centric connotation, but in terms of its definition, i don't see how it can not also refer to tall women.



Uh.

I think your gaydar needs some tuning. 

I was 5'11" when I was 9, and I was thin through most of high school... and NOBODY mistook me for a tranny.

It was kind of a shame actually, I totally tried to pull off the androgynous thing and failed. Curse you, hourglass figure!

Also, I have to say I never got a lot of ridicule for being tall... certainly nowhere near what I've gotten for being fat. I mean, sure, you can define "BBW" to include tall thin women - but based on my own experience, the way society treats tall thin women is VERY different from the way it treats fat women, and so I don't see any real reason to lump them together under that title.


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## Teleute (Jun 21, 2009)

Cors said:


> I agree, the word sounds nice but more often than not, it seems to be an euphemism for something else. This is especially true outside of the size-acceptance/fat-loving scene.
> 
> People here generally describe me (size 0, G cup, no hips or ass) as voluptuous and curvy. It irks me because it is pretty obvious that it is just a polite way of saying "wow her boobs are huge". When the same word is used on a BBW or SSBBW by a non-FA, it is often an euphemism for "wow she's fat". Most Asians consider me fat and it bothers the hell out of me when I see them scrambling to find a "nice" way to tell me that I am just.... uhh..... voluptuous! Curvy! Womanly! I would rather that those people just call me fat. I still hate the word obese though.



Heh, I also love the term voluptuous, but it does require playing the "guess-what-this-word-really-means-here" game. I dunno, I guess I kind of get amused rather than annoyed when people are trying to find ways of avoiding calling me fat - I think it's funny to watch them scramble for words, and the uncomfortable momentary freeze if *I* use the word fat.

Also, wow, your boobs are HUGE.


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## Cors (Jun 21, 2009)

Teleute said:


> Uh.
> 
> I think your gaydar needs some tuning.
> 
> ...



I agree, it is nowhere near the same thing. (We could cross-dress and fail together though. )

I do have a bio-female friend who often gets mistaken for a tranny though, but I don't think it has that much to do with her height. Long blonde hair, wears plenty of makeup and skirts, but she is 6'2", athletic (competitive swimmer), verrrry broad shoulders, flat-chested, narrow hips, big hands, a bit of stubble.


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## Teleute (Jun 21, 2009)

Cors said:


> I agree, it is nowhere near the same thing. (We could cross-dress and fail together though. )
> 
> I do have a bio-female friend who often gets mistaken for a tranny though, but I don't think it has that much to do with her height. Long blonde hair, wears plenty of makeup and skirts, but she is 6'2", athletic (competitive swimmer), verrrry broad shoulders, flat-chested, narrow hips, big hands, a bit of stubble.



Competitive swimming does seem to cause women to develop that kind of figure - it builds up your shoulders like no other!


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## bdog (Jun 22, 2009)

Teleute said:


> Heh, I also love the term voluptuous, but it does require playing the "guess-what-this-word-really-means-here" game. I dunno, I guess I kind of get amused rather than annoyed when people are trying to find ways of avoiding calling me fat - I think it's funny to watch them scramble for words, and the uncomfortable momentary freeze if *I* use the word fat.
> 
> Also, wow, your boobs are HUGE.



I've read rants on Craigslist where the men were upset with fat women who had described themselves as voluptuous in their personal ad. The thought it was misleading. I love the word voluptuous and I think you can describe a BBW as voluptuous but synonyms they are not.


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