# Are there really FFAs?



## AppreSheAte (Oct 19, 2006)

I keep wondering. 

As I read posts there seem to be, but they are very ellusive and disappear quickly. Are FFAs all in the "closet"? 

Just wondering aloud.

Where oh where...


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## GordoNegro (Oct 19, 2006)

They do exist as I would not have been a growing bhm without 1.
Patience is a virtue as it is a great feeling.


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## Power_Metal_Kitsune (Oct 20, 2006)

Seeing that I am a former BBW who spent much of her time "couch dating" and being hidden by so-called FA's, I know how much it hurts to be a "guilty pleasure", so no I am not in the closet at all and I am a FFA who openly dates a wonderful 340 lb 18 year old BHYM (Big Handsome Young Man) who has met my entire family and who I would not hide for all the gold in Fort Knox! Everyone who knows me knows that I am attracted to both his looks and personality, but if he loses or gains weight, I will still love him as much as the day I met him. We are here, you just have to be patient and stop looking, because when you stop looking you find what you were looking for all along, I did!


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## Gal4FatGuys (Oct 20, 2006)

There's one right here! Who's single!


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## estrata (Oct 20, 2006)

And one who's married!


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## AZ_Wolf (Oct 21, 2006)

How else to appropriately reply to an orphaned thread?


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## Obesus (Oct 21, 2006)

Some time ago, MissAF began a Frappr map for BHM and FFA's and there has never been a whole lot of response to it, but out of 28 folks (one of the listings is a city!) 2 are women on my counting...I think the interesting thing is that there is really a long distance between most people, which pretty much killed the idea of ever having any kind of national event. There are a few stranded folks across the waves who are even more isolated..so, it is very difficult to say, but it appears that either the FFA population is very very very very very very small in number, or else extremely reticent about self-identification as a whole. I periodically call for folks to put themselves even anonymously on the map, so this is yet another of them calls! 

http://www.frappr.com/bhmffa


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## MickRidem (Oct 21, 2006)

I'm a happily married FFA. I know of a few others in my group of close friends that are also happily married. But you know, since you made that map and I put myself on it, I was thinking about the fact that I'm not very vocal about my preferences. I feel I don't really need to since I already have what I want. Perhaps other women feel the same way. Maybe I should say more, and more often because guys need to know that others find them attractive at any size, whether we're available or not - as long as there are no mixed messages.

Your thoughts?


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## Laina (Oct 21, 2006)

I wouldn't say I'm closeted, but since I'm happily involved, I don't need to broadcast my desires. *shrug* 

As a rule, I don't tend to be "out there" about my preferences (sexual or otherwise), anyway. I'm not saying this is true of all women, mind, but there are those of us who're just naturally more reserved.


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## Gal4FatGuys (Oct 22, 2006)

I'd have to say that I'm pretty darn vocal about what I want. I'm just only 22 and most of the men on this site seem to be significantly far away/older than me. I'm in NJ and between BHMs right now.


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## Wanderer (Oct 22, 2006)

Gal4FatGuys said:


> I'd have to say that I'm pretty darn vocal about what I want. I'm just only 22 and most of the men on this site seem to be significantly far away/older than me. I'm in NJ and between BHMs right now.



I'm in Texas, on the other hand, and have been between women for so long, becoming a monk would only require a wardrobe change. 

It's only logical, really; there's a "growing" supply of BHMs out there, and only so many FFAs. By definition, that means a lot of large and lonely loverboys wishing they could find someone in their ZIP code.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 22, 2006)

Sorry, but I have to take some issue with that.

First off, being big doesn't limit you to only FFA's. It might if that is your preference, but there are women who will date you just because they find you appealing or "ususally don't go for big men but _____ is just really great" or who don't really care about size when choosing a date. The flip side of this is many FFA's [myself inclduded] have been attracted to and dated skinny men just because of their great personalities, sex appeal, common interests, chemistry, etc. Size is just one part of it, and sometimes it doesn't matter at all.

You assume the only woman who would want to do date you would have to be an FFA. This speaks like you think you have nothing else to offer beyond an appeal to somebody's fetish or preference.

Lastly, and this will be no doubt the millionth time this has been said, even FFA's look for more than just a body type. Unless you're just looking for a fetish partner, you are going to be interested in other facets of the man's appearance, job, interests, sense of humor, chemistry with you, etc. I, and other FFA's don't just say "All I care about is if a guy has a good handful of backfat."


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## William (Oct 22, 2006)

Hi LoveBHMS

I think in this area BHMs have it harder than BBWs

Guys will straight out tell a BBW they are not attracted to her or if they are sick minded will do that "hogging stuff"

I have have known women who were attracted to my personality and not my body and most often I got stuck in their "very close male friend" category.

William




LoveBHMS said:


> Sorry, but I have to take some issue with that.
> 
> First off, being big doesn't limit you to only FFA's. It might if that is your preference, but there are women who will date you just because they find you appealing or "ususally don't go for big men but _____ is just really great" or who don't really care about size when choosing a date. The flip side of this is many FFA's [myself inclduded] have been attracted to and dated skinny men just because of their great personalities, sex appeal, common interests, chemistry, etc. Size is just one part of it, and sometimes it doesn't matter at all.
> 
> ...


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## Wanderer (Oct 22, 2006)

William said:


> Hi LoveBHMS
> 
> I think in this area BHMs have it harder than BBWs
> 
> ...



Can I get an "Amen!"? 

It's not that I don't have anything else to offer; I'm smart and funny, and I love to pamper and spoil a woman as much as she'll let me. I enjoy close physical contact (of oh-so-many kinds), and have a native talent for massage. I have lots to offer.

Problem is, gentlemen tend to lose out a lot. Most women are looking for an aggressive, take-charge kind of guy, not one that rubs their feet, cooks dinner, and asks them how their day went. Heck, my first girlfriend left me for someone less mature... her words, not mine. Act nice around a woman, and you wind up as one of her friends; not a boyfriend.

I figure, at least with an FFA, some level of physical attraction should be there from the start. It may or may not lead to something lasting, but at least there'd be something there.

Yours truly,

The 250-pound,

Wanderer


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## AppreSheAte (Oct 22, 2006)

ouch! that hurts just imagining it.

LovesBhm, so do you routinely break hearts pretending to be a ffa?

I agree with most of what you say, but you fail to recognize that there is something special usually that goes on between a ffa and a bhm - perhaps I am thinking more about a feeder / feedee relationship, and that is probably really, really, really rare to find.

 

oh well...

:eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1: :eat1:


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## estrata (Oct 22, 2006)

I think you have to get into a woman’s psyche to understand this. Woman are not the aggressors, and therefore we have lower libidos. I read somewhere that women’s libido’s ask “why” whereas men’s ask “why not”? Women are just not as interested in looking at porn, or in going around online or in RL and talking about what they find attractive. In other words, they ask “why” should I? They don’t see the point. Whereas men just do it naturally. The only reason I fully realized I was an FFA is because my husband was hounding me to discover my “fetishes”, because he was convinced it would raise my libido to his level. News flash &#8211; women, in general, have lower libidos. Why do you think “honey, I have a headache” is such a well-known cop-out? We just aren’t as interested in thinking about, talking about, and writing in forums about our sexual preferences as men are.

But if you want evidence of FFAs, look as all the couples with very healthy sex lives where the man is a BHM. And there are a lot. And I would bet that there are just as many &#8211; or more &#8211; lonely skinny guys as there are lonely fat guys, the only difference is BHMs have their weight to blame whereas the thin guys find something else. In fact, from my experience more women prefer big men to thin men, and if you think about evolution that just makes sense. But we’re not gonna just come out and say it, so I think you guys just have to accept that - and start noticing the implied attraction rather than the outright "dude, you're sexy!"


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## steely (Oct 22, 2006)

Problem is, gentlemen tend to lose out a lot. Most women are looking for an aggressive, take-charge kind of guy, not one that rubs their feet, cooks dinner, and asks them how their day went. 
Yours truly,

The 250-pound,

Wanderer


Where were you 8 years ago before I got married?Sounds like heaven to me:smitten:


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## Obesus (Oct 22, 2006)

First off, the simple answer to the original question: "Are there any FFAs?" would be "Yes." There certainly are not too many, but self-identifying women who do not mind telling others about their preference and who are attracted to fat men for a variety of reasons are out there...just hard to find. Now, FFA-ness is certainly not just about physical attraction and many women who do not necessarily self-identify as being attracted to fat men are in relationships with fat men because of personality, spirituality, intellectuality, common interests, companionship or other factors. This may include men who may have started out as thinner men, but who grew fat with time and their partners just shrugged it away while not really liking the situation. 

The other question being discussed here is: Is it easy or even possible for fat men to form social relationships, romantic relationships, sexual relationships or to enter or to stay in marriages? The answer to that is much more complex but I think William has some point in the idea that both fat men and fat women...let us just say fat people, in general, have a harder time with finding relationships than most thinner people and fat men do not generally have it easy at all. There is definite prejudice against fatness in our culture and if that weren't the case, then we would be able to disband NAAFA tomorrow and shut down Dimensions except for the Food Board. It is also much easier for younger fat folk to find relationships than if age is a factor. That puts some folks, like me, in the community, into no small amount of uphill battle to even get a simple date.

The question of the whole gaining-feeding issue with fat men is highly complex and there is no clearcut answer there either...there is some slight sense of more support in the gay, trans and bi-sexual communities, although it is by no means staggering in its' perfection...just more visible. SM/BD is mixed, mostly fat-phobic. Dimensions is not at all the best place to find a contact there...Hungry Feedee and Fantasy Feeder are better, although it is slower than molasses around both...In my experience, I haven't even heard of anyone in a real feeding relationship in years.

So, there are several questions and several complex answers. I think in general, this is an issue that keeps coming up again and again with not very much actual resolution...I don't think it can be resolved until the size-acceptance part is really a part of our culture. Hence, I am re-joining NAAFA, much to their horror! Ahem. :bow:


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## Wanderer (Oct 22, 2006)

steely said:


> Where were you 8 years ago before I got married?Sounds like heaven to me:smitten:



<laugh> Eight years ago, Steely, I was right here in Texas; only difference was, I was 28 and still living with my mother. Well, and I weighed less than 200 pounds at the time, though not by much.

That's my biggest problem; there doesn't seem to be a single person (in the sense of counting) anywhere in the world that can answer even basic questions about "How to get a date". So I flounder around, asking women that are clever, and funny, and sweet, and intelligent, if they want to go out with me.

The usual answer? "Sorry, I'm married".:doh: 

"Sorry, I'm engaged." 

"Sorry, I already have a boyfriend." 

It's gotten so bad, I now have a stock anwser: "Darn it, too late again."

Yours truly,

The always-the-best-man,

Wanderer


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## DebbieBBW (Oct 23, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> Can I get an "Amen!"?
> 
> It's not that I don't have anything else to offer; I'm smart and funny, and I love to pamper and spoil a woman as much as she'll let me. I enjoy close physical contact (of oh-so-many kinds), and have a native talent for massage. I have lots to offer.
> 
> Problem is, gentlemen tend to lose out a lot. Most women are looking for an aggressive, take-charge kind of guy, not one that rubs their feet, cooks dinner, and asks them how their day went. Heck, my first girlfriend left me for someone less mature... her words, not mine. Act nice around a woman, and you wind up as one of her friends; not a boyfriend.



How about a good combination of both? I love a man who pampers me but too many times those same guys really are just TOO nice. 

My off and on boyfriend/best friend of 7 yrs now (off and on only because we both like our single time every so often, not because we don't get along great, because we do)....he is sooooo good to me that I don't think most people would really believe it. He cooks for me, rubs my feet, wines and dines me, takes me on trips, speaks to me in only the sweetest most respectful way, kisses me all over, heck even takes me shopping . However as super duper sweet as he is to me, in everyday life he is a take charge kinda guy. He is willing to do just about anything under the sun for me, but boy does he know how to say NO when he wants to and mean it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying every nice guy out there is a pushover, but in my experiences most are. It just is not a turn on to most women to feel that you could probably walk all over a man and get away with it. Even if you don't do that to them, just knowing you could is not a good thing to most women I know. (There are the rare few that like it and usually treat nice men like total shit).

BTW, he was a BHM when I met him and for about 4 yrs afterwards. He dropped about 80 lbs a few yrs back and is slim and trim now. I preferred him the way he was but he is happy at his current size. I care enough about him that I accept him either way.


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## DebbieBBW (Oct 23, 2006)

If I like men of all sizes do I still count? For me it really is about what kinda guy he is, rather than what size. I have been with men as slim as 125lbs and as heavy as 500lbs.

I also find alot BBW to be very sexy (not bi really, just more curious)...but I do love the fat female form and find oh so many things about it attractive. However just like the way I view men, it's not all about size and I do find women of various sizes attractive.

Either way I think of myself as a FFA, so I guess that is all that really matters.


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## William (Oct 23, 2006)

Hi 

I think that one of the problems with this thread that some people are assuming that FFAs are the same as FAs. I think that your average FFA is a lot more mid-stream than FAs. 

Maybe I should just say that I look for more in a women than being attracted to me despite of my fat. I would hope that she would like my body.

William


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## TheMildlyStrangeone (Oct 23, 2006)

I can personally attest for one proclaimed FFA in this thread that she is real.I've talked to her about it and she's a wonderful girl!


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## Wanderer (Oct 23, 2006)

DebbieBBW said:


> How about a good combination of both? I love a man who pampers me but too many times those same guys really are just TOO nice.



<chuckle> If my mother were still around, she'd tell you I'm not _that_ nice. I have my sticking points, same as anyone else; those conversational topics (much less ethical constraints) beyond which I will not go.

Problem is, a woman would have to actually, you know, spend _time_ with me in order to find that out. Given that the usual response to a Nice Guy is either running the other way as fast as socially acceptable, or else placing him in the Friend category ("Let's be friends. That's a woman's way of saying, 'You are never gonna see me naked'."), however, it's unlikely I'll ever get to prove it.

Yours truly,

The lonesome,

Wanderer


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## Gal4FatGuys (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks Strange One  You're pretty great too.


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## BigFusionNYC (Oct 27, 2006)

This is a good thread, lots of insightful thoughts, where were all of you (other than Brother OBESUS) when I started this thread 5 months ago?


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## Obesus (Oct 27, 2006)

....has been around for, like, ever...dating back to the Pleistocene era of the Board....and I think we have successfully established that fat men do not generally have the easiest time in the world getting even a simple little date, much less a fully fledged relationship...it is an uphill climb and that is difficult in XXXXL nurses scrubs! Women in general have very much the same attitude toward fat men, that most men have toward fat women...friends maybe, but actually be with them in a serious relationship? Isn't going to happen most of the time...rare exceptions, just like the rarity of FFA's...:bow: 



BigFusionNYC said:


> This is a good thread, lots of insightful thoughts, where were all of you (other than Brother OBESUS) when I started this thread 5 months ago?


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## missaf (Oct 27, 2006)

Dude, General, we've been here, where do you keep disappearing to?


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## Tori DeLuca (Oct 27, 2006)

Ahh the FFA...what an elusive term
Personally I dont consider myself an FFA, I despise labels.
I am attracted to men, period. I just tend to gravitate sexually towards men who have a little more around the middle than most. Believe me, when a recent lover got up to a size 42 I was ESTATIC. He happened to put all his weight on in his belly. It was soft and pliable yet it didnt hang really low. It was perfect for me to fondle when I was down low doing other things.(teehee)
THEN he decided to go on a diet and is currently a 36. Am I sad? Yes? I still lust him but not with the gusto I used to. I need to have something to hold onto.
*sigh*


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## FreneticFangs (Oct 28, 2006)

steely said:


> Problem is, gentlemen tend to lose out a lot. Most women are looking for an aggressive, take-charge kind of guy, not one that rubs their feet, cooks dinner, and asks them how their day went.
> Yours truly,
> 
> The 250-pound,
> ...


agreed. Well, maybe some women like that, but I'd certainly be more interested in the aggressive type guy! The guy that asks me how my day was is my gay best friend and I'd rather be ravaged than sit and make small talk


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## Wanderer (Oct 29, 2006)

FreneticFangs said:


> agreed. Well, maybe some women like that, but I'd certainly be more interested in the aggressive type guy! The guy that asks me how my day was is my gay best friend and I'd rather be ravaged than sit and make small talk



Gahhh...

<sigh> And people wonder why I have no love life. THIS is why.

"... my gay best friend..."

The problem is, much to the dismay of a few gay bears in my area, I don't happen to be gay. I'm the Mean Old Wolf on "Bonkers": "Kind, sensitive, caring... and a fool for a hot cup of cocoa on a cold winter's night." But since I'm straight, I'm also incredibly frustrated, and hornier than a hundred head of Hereford.

So here I sit, hungry for physical companionship, and seemingly doomed to eternal JAFdom by my own caring nature. TANJ.

Yours truly,

The trapped-in-solitary-for-life,

Wanderer


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 29, 2006)

This reminds me of the old "women don't like nice guys" complaint. It usually goes along the lines of "I behave a certain way towards women, or would if I had a partner, and yet I'm single."

1. Being "nice" isn't enough. As with men who complain that their size keeps them from having dates, it may be something more than niceness. It's not that women don't like being asked how their day was, but the "nice" guy in question may have other things going on that bug women. I don't know you and this isn't a personal attack, I'm just saying you can't look at one behaviour pattern in a vaccum and say "I cook dinner therefore women should be lining up for me."

2. Women do like nice guys, but they don't like wimps. Corrollary to that is if you're nice to everyone, they don't feel special. Women like to feel special or like you're making an effort for them.

3. Women do like nice guys but not when a guy has some ulterior motive along the lines of "If I treat you a certain way then you have to like me." You can not make somebody like you by acting a certain way. If it were possible to make a person like you, there would be no heartache in the world.


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## AppreSheAte (Oct 29, 2006)

Still wonder what the "s" after BHM means? 

Interesting theories, and I would agree with them.

Interest, excitement, passion, have to be there with nice, and maybe nice is boring all the time. 

hmmm, women always seem like somewhat of an effort, but I probably have said enough.

Your last point sounds like it could be titled: unconditional, or maybe just that you're moody.

So, are you an FFA?


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## Kiki (Oct 29, 2006)

AppreSheAte said:


> Still wonder what the "s" after BHM means?
> 
> Interesting theories, and I would agree with them.
> 
> ...



So lets get this straight...an FFA has to love ALL fat guys unconditionally, and cannot specify any preference for personality types. Oh yes, and she has to make all the running but be gracious and understanding if she gets rejected if _he_ doesn't like _her_. (He's allowed preferencs but she isn't) ???

I count myself as an FFA because I'm ATTRACTED to fat men. Attraction is the first step. If after meeting him, his personality turns me off, that doesn't mean I'm not an FFA.



BigFusionNYC said:


> This is a good thread, lots of insightful thoughts, where were all of you (other than Brother OBESUS) when I started this thread 5 months ago?



On your thread you weren't interested in hearing from anyone who doesn't live in NYC and isn't NYC born and bred. It should have been called 'NYC FFAs, Where You At?' and then you would have avoided confusion.


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## William (Oct 29, 2006)

Hi Kiki

I think all a FFA has to do is somehow let a BHM know that he is talking to a woman who is not put off by his size and is attracted to big guys. The rest should just work out.

It is hard on BBWs who never get asked, but it is also hard on BHMs who keep getting rejected.

William





Kiki said:


> So lets get this straight...an FFA has to love ALL fat guys unconditionally, and cannot specify any preference for personality types. Oh yes, and she has to make all the running but be gracious and understanding if she gets rejected if _he_ doesn't like _her_. (He's allowed preferencs but she isn't) ???
> 
> I count myself as an FFA because I'm ATTRACTED to fat men. Attraction is the first step. If after meeting him, his personality turns me off, that doesn't mean I'm not an FFA.
> 
> ...


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## Wanderer (Oct 29, 2006)

Tangent alert! I'll start from the end, and work backward to the beginning, here:

Kiki: AppreSheAte is talking about LoveBHMs' post, there. LoveBHMs was essentially saying, "Women like nice guys, but not when the guy's just faking it to get them in bed or something." Her response was to point out this was just calling for an unconditional kindness on the part of the nice guy. That's all. Really.

Unless I totally misread it, of course. 

AppreSheAte: I assume the "s" in "LoveBHMs" is, in the words of an old cartoon theme song, "S... just makes it plural". In any event, again: A woman would actually have to spend time with me to get anything but physical attraction going, and I have yet to find a woman who's physically attracted to me. I've posted pictures; look them up, and you tell me. 

LoveBHMs: Now we get back to the actual response to my message.

1. I understand this isn't a personal attack. Truthfully, I'm not aware of any huge personal issues I have that would be sending out the "Don't Date Him If Trapped On A Deserted Island With Him" vibe, or any of the related "Danger! Danger, Penny Robinson!" signals. I don't have any diseases or disgusting odors, I'm neatly-dressed, and I honor women like the goddesses they are.

Apparently there's not much of a market for that, especially when wrapped in my packaging. As I told AppreSheAte: I've posted pictures. Take a look, and you tell me.

2. I'm *polite* to everyone; there's a difference. I am a devoted lover of the female form, as my first (and to date, only) girlfriend would tell you... if she hadn't run off with someone more dangerous. (But I could still curl her toes with a kiss.)

3. I agree, being nice just to "get some" isn't being nice; it's being sleazy. My reference to being "hornier than a hundred head of Hereford" is just to give some baseline of the level of sexual frustration I'm experiencing. I'm a guy; to quote _Buffy_, "Cordy, I'm a guy. Linoleum makes me think of sex."

Right now, I'm just desperate for human contact, you know? Both my parents are dead, my sister's family left the house in a shambles (which has cost me almost $500.00 to fix the plumbing), and none of my local friends can be bothered to help me out, here. "You're horribly depressed and need some help cleaning up? Sorry, not interested, couldn't possibly come over this decade. Call me when you're done." Throw in the fact that, two weeks ago, I wrecked the car my mother left me, my savings will be down to $1,000.00 after buying a new car (that's _with_ the help of the insurance company), and paying the property taxes on the house she left me, and I have to take $1,000 from savings every month or so to pay the light, heat and telephone bills, and... well, you get the idea.

I'm not asking for commitment, here. Experience has shown that women don't commit to guys like me, except possibly at gunpoint. And even then, they'll check to see how long the paramedics would take to get there. No, I'm just horribly lonely, with no chance of anything getting better anytime soon. I just want someone to be here, once in a while; I gave up on finding someone who'd love me years ago.

Now, pardon me. I have to go to work and pretend to be happy for a while. Later, folks.

Yours with a 45-minute commute from Mesquite to McKinney,

The rushed,

Wanderer


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 29, 2006)

I did not mean that men "fake it", but rather when a man points out how he acts towards women and _still can't find a date even though he is so good_ it sounds like an ulterior motive. i.e. I act this way because I expect women to appreciate it and to want to date me. It is no different from a woman saying she "puts out" because men love sex, so why doesn't she have a boyfriend?


Once the word "desperate" comes into play, it all goes south. Women don't want a guy that is desperate, no matter what he looks like or how good a cook he is. Neither is "nobody would want me except at gunpoint." I think I've pinpointed your problem, you don't think anyone would want you and it's become a self fulfilling prophecy. And you let us all know that women don't like "guys like you." I don't know what you're "like" but when you say that, it sounds like something most of us wouldnt' want to know about.


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## Obesus (Oct 29, 2006)

...please correct me here if I am off-base and it has been known to happen, but I am hearing that there is some idealizing and "placing of women on the pedestal" in your thinking. Is that accurate? That is definitely something that will scare anyone off, because it is a recipe for disaster. There is no way a real thinking breathing woman could live up to an expectation like that. Women are...well...yes...people and they have flaws and you have to work with those flaws as part of life. I am thinking that there has been some reason that you might be idealizing "women" as a category...but real individuals always have some problems that can be worked with.

I am also noticing that your posts do have a strong sense of self-fulfilling prophecy...in the sense that you are really blocking the possibility of a genuine "filled with problems to work out" kind of relationship, because you are afraid that you might be hurt...relationships do have pain that needs to be worked out, but on balance, the companionship outweighs the fear of being hurt and the pain that occasionally comes with them. Yes, there are genuine stigmas associated with being a fat man so you really have to cut some slack to the "system" out there and be willing to work with it...that is a risk, but a healthy risk. You have to open up a bit to the possibility that once you take "women" off the pedestal, they might actually feel comfortable enough to come around and check you out! :bow: 



Wanderer said:


> Gahhh...
> 
> <sigh> And people wonder why I have no love life. THIS is why.
> 
> ...


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## lemmink (Oct 30, 2006)

Wait, what, I haven't posted here yet? I'm an FFA!


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## AppreSheAte (Oct 30, 2006)

are you real, a really real FFA?


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## Wanderer (Oct 30, 2006)

In order:

LoveBHMs: Sorry to get the "ulterior motive" wrong in interpretation. You, on the other hand, mangled that quote of me. I didn't say no woman could _like_ me, but that, in my experience, no woman will _commit_ to me. I'm nice, safe and reliable. I'm loyal and trustworthy. I'm friendly and companionable. And if that sounds like I'm describing a dog, you begin to see the problem. You don't marry a dog; you don't have sex with a dog; you don't call a dog your boyfriend.

I can curl a woman's toes with a kiss, thrill her body with a touch. I can cook, clean and sew (a little). I'm responsible, mature, and intellectual, with a sense of humor. I'm a gentleman, with a tendency to the Knight in Shining Armor. I love to surprise a woman with little touches of joy in her day, but without overwhelming her sense of self.

And none of it means a <expletive deleted> thing. Because no woman I've ever known has ever committed to "nice, safe and reliable", even with all the "added value".

Now, is it possible there's a woman out there who'd commit to me? Sure. I've just never met one, or even heard of one. So it's a factual statement of my dating history when I say, "experience has taught me that women don't commit to guys like me, except _possibly_ at gunpoint". Given that my entire dating history has consisted of walking around as a placeholder marked "Insert Real Boyfriend Here", you'll forgive me a little hard-earned fatalism.

So I'll take a date that starts from some degree of physical attraction; it'd be a nice change from sitting at Mistress' feet until she finds someone to replace me. If something sparks, I'll be happy. If it doesn't, I won't be surprised. But right now I'm lonely, depressed, and about to hit the hay so I can get up for a 6:30a shift with under four hours' sleep.

Obesus: As you can see, my rose-colored glasses broke years ago. I idealize women because, to me, they are capital-G Gorgeous. I love their curves, their scent, the way they move, the sound of their voices. I love to hear a woman's laughter, see a woman smile.

But real women? Yes, they have flaws. (Flaw #1 seems to be an inability to appreciate me. Just kidding, just kidding.) But that's part of being alive. Only statues are perfect; only paintings never make mistakes. And I'm not interested in dating a statue or a painting.

I am the only boy out of three children, and the middle child to boot. I have seen women with and without makeup, with and without coffee, with and without civility. I have seen women agonizing, patronizing, screaming, dreaming, scheming, loving, hating, rushing, waiting, lying, crying, living and dying. I know full well that women are people. Reminding them that I'm male, on the other hand, seems to be a recurring problem.

(From the State Fair of 2005:

"Where did your husband and son go?", I asked my sister.

"To the car show", she answered. "It's a guy thing."

"So why didn't you ask if _I_ wanted to go?"

"It's a guy thing."

Yes, she was kidding. Yes, she's my sister. But sometimes...)

Now, "self-fulfilling prophecy"? Other way around, sadly. I would love to be in a relationship, preferably a long-term one. But no woman I've ever known was willing to commit to nice, safe, reliable me. I wanted to go steady, have fun, maybe even get married someday; but the only way any woman has ever wanted me was as a stand-in. Like I said above, a placeholder marked "Insert Real Boyfriend Here".

I'm just accepting facts: If women don't want to commit to guys like me, then I'll stop looking for commitment. No more deep-sea diving in the wading pool. I'll just take what I can get (because I can't take what I _can't_ get) and be happy with it. No expectations, no regrets. If all they want is a placeholder, then I'll be the best darn placeholder ever.

<sigh> And if I can ever convince my heart of hearts of that, I might be able to sound more like I believe it myself... hoping for something better really spoils the idea.

Now, if you can honestly point to a nice, safe, reliable guy that somebody's committed to... anyone at all within those parameters... then I'll retract my statement. But until I have reason to believe that my entire life experience is one extended anomaly, I stand by my words and their precise meaning: In my experience, women don't commit to guys like me, except possibly at gunpoint.

Yours looking for someone to be around,

The beaten, heartsore,

Wanderer


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## Wanderer (Oct 30, 2006)

lemmink said:


> Wait, what, I haven't posted here yet? I'm an FFA!



Pleasure, Lemmink. Don't worry, I won't trot out any of those stale old "Aussie" gags you see too much of on the Internet. All I'll do is welcome you to the board. May your stay here be long and enjoyable.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 30, 2006)

Just because you want to be in a relationship, doesn't mean your belief that women don't commit to "guys like you" isnt a self fulfilling prophecy.

Your whole post smacks of misery and desperation. "I'll take what I can get" sounds horrible...you're willing to take whatever bones a woman throws you? If a woman treats you as undeserving of being in a committed relationship then you'll be "the best placeholder ever." Gee, turn that around if a woman said it, "Well, if a guy just wants to use me for sex, then I'll be the best damn f**k possible."

But again you throw out the "I'm nice and I can sew" card followed by "women don't like that." Again I compare it to posts on here when fat guys have complained they couldn't get dates and _other fat guys_ say "Hey, I get dates, it's not the fat, it's you." 

So what i'm saying is being nice and able to sew are not enough. You are missing out on a relationship despite having those traits, not because you have them.


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## lemmink (Oct 30, 2006)

Ah, I miss the days when I was the token Irish girl. (What was that, three weeks ago?) 


I know a lot of those 'undateable guys' - ones who're every girl's best friend, and who people often guess are gay. Nice, safe, reliable guys. I'm dating one right now.


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## LoveBHMS (Oct 30, 2006)

can he sew?

But seriously, good for you being able to overlook all the massive character flaws inherent in being "nice" and "reliable" and just thumbing your nose at society and dating the man you are interested in. Well done.

Wanderer, her point is obvious. "Those guys" can and do find women that are interested in them. It's all in the attitude.


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## Wanderer (Oct 30, 2006)

Firstly, to Lemmink: You're Irish? I gotta get around this board more... when I saw Canberra in your Location slot, I jumped to a conclusion. In any event, I'm glad you've taken the time to discover the joys of the "nice guy relationship". Now, if I could just find a girl like you around here...

Now, in order:

LoveBHMs: Well, comparing being desperately lonely to being willing to lay anything on two legs is a touch unfair, don't you think? And again, you keep confusing "commitment" and "like"; they're not the same thing, you know. I'm somewhat tempted to abandon conversation until we speak the same language. Still, here we are, so...

Plainly, Lemmink has proven my entire dating history, what there is of it (four women), is strictly a statistical anomaly. The scarcity, believe it or not, is only partially my fault: While it's true I don't go up to every single woman in the state and ask her to go out with me, the fact that the women I've asked were married, single, in a relationship or widowed (she was working as a waitress, not in mourning dress, before you wonder) is unlikely to have its origins in my behavior, essential nature, or immortal soul. We can agree on that much, I hope.

That said, you seem to have overlooked a brief explanation of why I "sound" the way I do just now. <points up to the previous post, and the phrase "lonely, depressed, and about to go to work with less than four hours' sleep"> By the end of November, it is 95% certain that I will be financially depleted. My paycheck is insufficient to cover basic utilities, and my hours are being cut. I spend $5 in gas, minimum, every day to reach work and home. By January, I shall most likely have had to terminate telephone and Internet service (since I'm on dialup) in order to afford the gas cost of my job. This assumes the remaining paycheck is sufficient to cover light and heat. (A/C is not an issue; not only are we coming into winter, but the silly thing packed up months ago.) Even once I am back on food stamps, I will not have enough money to sustain any form of social life, online of otherwise. (Hard to date when you can't even pay for your own meal.)

Upon realizing this, my emotions seem to have had something of a seizure; at this writing, I am feeling quite emotionally numb. It's why, for instance, I don't take issue with your calling my written works "desperate", "needy", "misery", and so on. I simply don't feel any affront; no indignation. I realize I'm supposed to be insulted, of course, or at least have my nose rubbed in something; but for the life of me, it just isn't working. You might want to give up on verbal "shock tactics" until something starts working again. Or stops. Or whatever.

Right now, to be blunt, you could insult my dearly departed parents, demean my ancestry, kick my dog and urinate on my floor... and I'd only take issue with the dog-kicking. (It's illegal, you know.) Trying to offend me right now is like French-kissing on Novocaine. So please take this into account when reading my current writings.

Now: If you go back to my first posts to this forum, you'll find me asking if anyone knew a good place to go in the Dallas area. I got no responses, but hey, at least I tried asking somewhere that actually had people in it. Nobody I know has any idea where to go to meet people, except if you're gay. (*Everybody* knows *those* places.)

Do try and wrap your head around the following idea, LoveBHMs (and loathe people you think are whiny, complaining babies): I have no idea where to go. I have little idea what to do. And nobody in all the world has given any indication that the information I seek even exists. That I've even had four girlfriends is thus something of an accomplishment. To date, of the four sets of pictures I've posted, I have had two responses, one from an actual woman (and thank you, jeweltran). Nothing else; not even a critique of the photography.

My emotions are currently sprained, and my confidence has been tiring since there was nothing to fight but empty air. Right now, you see me beaten and broken, with a confident acknowledgement that soon, I shall be completely isolated. I ask that you not judge me too harshly in this condition.

That again said: Considering my entire "style" consists of asking a woman if she's available (and getting told "No"), the fact that I have any experience should be seen as a small triumph.

Now: If you will excuse me, I must go and see about a car to replace the one my mother left me, which I wrecked two weeks ago.

Yours simply,

The monotone,

Wanderer


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## William (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi LoveBHM

Was your point just for Fat Guys? Because I have heard Fat Women who have said that they could not find a date and at the same time other Fat Women found dates and often dated. So were these dateless Fat Women at fault also?

I think both Fat Men and Women are discriminated by all sizes of people

William


*You said *

Edit 



LoveBHMS said:


> Again I compare it to posts on here when fat guys have complained they couldn't get dates and _other fat guys_ say "Hey, I get dates, it's not the fat, it's you."


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## Gal4FatGuys (Oct 30, 2006)

As a FFA I'll tell you that to me FFAness just governs who I look at first. 

I'll give you an example, I go to a very large university (Rutgers) and many of my classes have 300+ people in them. I was in a class today that I don't know anyone in so I just sit by a random large boy who I think is cute. If I were not an FFA I would think that I probably would sit next to a random non-large boy who I think is cute. I strike up conversation and if I like the guy's personality I sit next to him in the next class, if not, I find another large boy to sit near. So, in conclusion, the fatness of the boy just draws me to them. The personality keeps me there and possibly gets my (real) phone number.

Ya know, and sometimes they don't like me. It's not like it's us FFAs who always do the turning down. Today the guy actually moved.  Tell you truth I don't think he fit in the seat well... I kinda felt bad for his situation. But I thought he was cute, didn't get the chance to say so though.


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## Laina (Oct 31, 2006)

I'll note now, before I get any further in, that this is not a personal attack. I'm sorry that everything sucks right now, because it's amazing how overwhelming life can get in a short period of time...and usually when you least expect it. However, we're talking about seeking mates, right? H'okay.

I'm a woman. At least, I was ten minutes ago, and I assume it takes longer than that for a twenty three year old body to shift gears entirely. So I can speak for myself, as a woman, when I say that too much "nice"ness is just as bad as not enough. An example:

I chatted with a guy through LJ (*gasp* and egads!) for a couple of days, then started talking to him via AIM. He was nice, but I was involved--the classic story, I guess--and there was a LOT of sighing on his part about how "all the good ones" were taken and how if he had met me a few weeks earlier... And on and on it went. For whatever reason, I never articulated how MUCH that bothered me--I should have. Regardless, this guy was a Nice Guy. I know, because he reminded me every chance he got. If he held a door for a little old lady, he had to IM me to tell me about it. He was that Nice. And, like all Nice Guys, women overlooked him. All of them. They took advantage of him, they talked to him about their boyfriends, flirted with him when they were drunk, let him buy them dinner when he refused to let them split the check with him...but they NEVER put out. Why? Not because they weren't interested, not because they had boyfriends or because they thought of him as a friend. Nope. They turned him down because he was a Nice Guy and Nice Guys finish last.

Like most Nice Guys I've met, this guy was a bit, um, passive aggressive. In the time I knew him, he never approached a (single) girl and said "I like you, let's go out sometime"--instead he latched on to girls who had boyfriends and tried to guilt them into breaking off their current relationships. And any time someone called him on it, he'd claim that he didn't know where to meet single girls.

Now, since I've already noted this isn't a personal attack, I'll add that I know this probably isn't your MO. But it's one that women are on the lookout for, because we've all stumbled across a Nice Guy or two in our lives. And Nice Guys can get pretty nasty (think: date rape, physical abuse, life destroying lies and gossip) if they think they've been led on. So we're careful. More careful with a potentially false Nice Guy than with a potentially legit jackass, honestly. *shrug*

That aside, I can't tell you where to go meet single women, and I won't say that it's "all attitude". But attitude IS an important factor. Unfortunately, dating is a matter of practice making perfect, which means going on some boring, go-nowhere dates until you find a bar/club/dating service that puts you in touch with people who DO suit you.

Or you go the route I did, and meet your potential mate over M:TG at Denny's at midnight--totally by accident. I was there to sober up, he was there to play cards. Luckily for me, he was just as gorgeous when the jager wore off.


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## Laina (Oct 31, 2006)

William said:


> Hi LoveBHM
> 
> Was your point just for Fat Guys? Because I have heard Fat Women who have said that they could not find a date and at the same time other Fat Women found dates and often dated. So were these dateless Fat Women at fault also?
> 
> ...



Do we have to apply the word "discrimination" to dating? Such a negative connotation. One could say I discriminate against registered sex offenders when it comes to relationships, and by your standards they'd be completely correct.

Dating is a matter of attraction--yes, most people want converation, companionship and friendship, but in all seriousness, chemistry is of great importance. So not finding a fat (or thin) guy (or girl) attractive--and not dating them because you'd be doing both parties a disservice by "settling"--is NOT discrimination so much as it is acting on one's impulses.

Could we maybe, please (pretty, pretty please) stop villifying people for having "types"? They probably don't do it on purpose.


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## lemmink (Oct 31, 2006)

I've financially supported my boyfriend for a year, and over several different international holidays to boot... Being poor ain't a deal-breaker. 

I've also come into contact with a lot of those passive-aggressive Nice Guys, too. I avoid 'em like the plague. 

In another interesting story, I used to know a guy who could never get a woman. He was every girl's best friend but couldn't get a date. He blamed his weight for it, but it wasn't that. Eventually after years of hearing him whinge I pulled him out at a party, brought him to the loo, and told him the reason girls didn't find him attractive was because his goatee looked like pubes. That was it. He had a cry about my meanness, but then he went and shaved it off and suddenly was getting women all the dang time. True story.


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## William (Oct 31, 2006)

Hi Lania 

I was just trying to point out the double standard in Fat Acceptance, that if a Fat Woman says can't get a date then it is because of Society's standards, but if a Fat Guy says he can't get a date then it is because of his personality.

I was not using the word discriminate in its worse meaning. Still you have to admit that there is a negative image of Fat People accepted by society and consciously and/or unconsciously many people live by it.

In a perfect world what you said about attraction would be right 100% of the time.

William




Laina said:


> Do we have to apply the word "discrimination" to dating? Such a negative connotation. One could say I discriminate against registered sex offenders when it comes to relationships, and by your standards they'd be completely correct.
> 
> Dating is a matter of attraction--yes, most people want converation, companionship and friendship, but in all seriousness, chemistry is of great importance. So not finding a fat (or thin) guy (or girl) attractive--and not dating them because you'd be doing both parties a disservice by "settling"--is NOT discrimination so much as it is acting on one's impulses.
> 
> Could we maybe, please (pretty, pretty please) stop villifying people for having "types"? They probably don't do it on purpose.


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## Wanderer (Oct 31, 2006)

Well, let me start off with a little good news: I have some emotional latitude back, thanks to finding a possible car that I could afford without having to shut off the phones next month. Of course, that means being horribly embarassed over this morning's post... :blush: Er, moving right along...

Laina: :shocked: And here I was, blaming Norman Bates for the popular image of the crazed "nice guy". I see now that he's really a Johnny-Come-Lately.

I hope I haven't come across as one of those life-destroying wretches myself. Not that I can get anything but a long-distance relationship on this board, unless one of you is moving to Texas next year. But still, I hope I haven't given you cause to suspect me of such foul motives.

Given the act I'm thus following, I admit to a strong urge to "To your tents, O Israel", and never darken this forum again. If that's the community consensus, of course, I'll abide by it. But I hope it isn't. I'm lonely enough.  

This much I _will_ say, though: I don't try to date married, attached, or otherwise unavailable women; I just have lousy wedding-ring radar. When I accidentally make a pass (such as it is) at an attached woman, I duck my head, make a self-deprecating comment about my timing, sometimes shake their hand, and then leave. It's like a cross to a vampire: Clear evidence that my intentions are not wanted.

P.S.: I don't play the card games. I play RPGs. Pen-and-paper RPGs. Over five years, we've found one female player... and she's not with the group anymore. Are you _sure_ you can't tell me where to find single women? I could really use the help!

Lemmink: Being poor may not be a deal-breaker... but have you paid for every single date you two have ever been on? It's really not workable to put a candlelit dinner on your food stamp card unless you cook it yourself... and remember, the candles aren't covered. I can't even afford to hit the thrift stores more than twice a quarter. At least if the cheap car turns out well, I'll be able to afford a date once in a while.

Then, all I need is a girl, of course. Practice may make perfect, but I need someone to practice on.

Gal4FatGuys: Exactly. That's why I'd like to try a relationship that starts with a little mutual physical attraction; apparently my gorgeous brain just isn't enough of a draw. I love to touch and be touched, to set two bodies tingling from mutual contact. Hard to do that all by my lonesome...

Yours truly,

The feeling-slightly-better,

Wanderer


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## Laina (Oct 31, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> Well, let me start off with a little good news: I have some emotional latitude back, thanks to finding a possible car that I could afford without having to shut off the phones next month. Of course, that means being horribly embarassed over this morning's post... :blush: Er, moving right along...
> 
> Laina: :shocked: And here I was, blaming Norman Bates for the popular image of the crazed "nice guy". I see now that he's really a Johnny-Come-Lately.
> 
> ...




All I really play is WoW, but watching him argue his way into a Magic win was priceless. Maybe because of the jager. =P


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## Laina (Oct 31, 2006)

William said:


> Hi Lania
> 
> I was just trying to point out the double standard in Fat Acceptance, that if a Fat Woman says can't get a date then it is because of Society's standards, but if a Fat Guy says he can't get a date then it is because of his personality.
> 
> ...



So, then, why are skinny girls single? Or thin guys, for that matter? By society's standards I'm a perfect fit...and yet I've spent weeks, months, and even years striking out. (Previous, obviously, to meeting my boyfriend.) 

You've gone over. and over. and over this particular field before. All I'm asking is that you stop using "discrimination" as though these people have been turned down for promotions or sent to the back of the bus. (Yeah, folks, I went there.) 

Yes, maybe there are women who aren't attracted to fat men, and that's unfortunate if it means they miss out on a great guy. But are they discriminating? No. They aren't attratcted. And to "force" an attraction is pretty improbable...and really, who'd want to date a girl who had to "make" herself interested in them?


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## Gal4FatGuys (Oct 31, 2006)

Hey Wanderer!

I'm an FFA *and* I play pen-and-paper rolepaying games! What a coincidence.  What can I say, I've met a lot of influential nerds in my life.


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## William (Oct 31, 2006)

Hi Laina

I hear what you are saying and I really do not want to even be around people who are not accepting, most times you have to deal with them any way 

I am not talking about forcing anyone to like anyone, but places like Dimensions is certainly the place to vent about them. I mean why even have BBW Dances if all is fair in love and war?

William





Laina said:


> So, then, why are skinny girls single? Or thin guys, for that matter? By society's standards I'm a perfect fit...and yet I've spent weeks, months, and even years striking out. (Previous, obviously, to meeting my boyfriend.)
> 
> You've gone over. and over. and over this particular field before. All I'm asking is that you stop using "discrimination" as though these people have been turned down for promotions or sent to the back of the bus. (Yeah, folks, I went there.)
> 
> Yes, maybe there are women who aren't attracted to fat men, and that's unfortunate if it means they miss out on a great guy. But are they discriminating? No. They aren't attratcted. And to "force" an attraction is pretty improbable...and really, who'd want to date a girl who had to "make" herself interested in them?


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## lemmink (Oct 31, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> Lemmink: Being poor may not be a deal-breaker... but have you paid for every single date you two have ever been on? It's really not workable to put a candlelit dinner on your food stamp card unless you cook it yourself... and remember, the candles aren't covered. I can't even afford to hit the thrift stores more than twice a quarter. At least if the cheap car turns out well, I'll be able to afford a date once in a while.



My boyfriend is a student. Not only have I paid for every single date we've been on, I've also paid for all the food he's eaten GENERALLY, his clothes, his transport costs, and even his comics. I also paid a lot for fecking about across countries (there's a bit of a way between Canberra and Dublin, although we did originally live in the same continent at LEAST, and took him on holidays to Cyprus, London, Cork and Sydney). Also: he can't even drive. 

Happily he got a job last week, and so I've told him HE can pay for all our living expenses now. I'm a little sick of being his sugar mommy.


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## BigFusionNYC (Nov 3, 2006)

Kiki said:


> On your thread you weren't interested in hearing from anyone who doesn't live in NYC and isn't NYC born and bred. It should have been called 'NYC FFAs, Where You At?' and then you would have avoided confusion.


 
Actually I just don't want to hear "there are 10,000,000 people in NYC, and I live in Smallville and see fat guys with hot chix all the time!" I'm not in Smallville, I know how many people in there are in New York - that's not insightful, it's annoying, especially when you hear it 210 times.


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## Wanderer (Nov 3, 2006)

Gal4FatGuys: Hey, nice to see another member of the Fairer Sex that enjoys a good RP session! Ah, to live in New Jersey...

Lemmink: Good for him! (And good for you.) Trust me, he'll feel a lot better now that he can actually buy things without coming to you every time; that sort of need makes us feel too much like we're three years old, asking our Mommies to please buy us something "'cause we need it".

BigFusionNYC: To borrow a phrase: "True dat". I mean, you'll notice there's yet to be any Texas-based FFA posting here. There's a single FFA listed on the Frappr map, but she hasn't responded yet.

Yours truly,

The lonesome,

Wanderer


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## BigFusionNYC (Nov 4, 2006)

Wanderer - Frappr sux. I mean it never runs right, and no one ever talks there. They should've used the bandwidth to make MySpace run smoother.


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## lemmink (Nov 4, 2006)

Sorry, my mistake! Originally I thought you were blaming women for not finding poor guys attractive. Now I realise that it's poor guys who resent women because they feel that any financial contribution from a woman is hideously emasculating. Whoops!


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 4, 2006)

Because all this time you probably had some mindset along the lines of "I love you and want to help" or "Since you're a student, I'm happy to pay for things so you can focus on school" or even something ludicrously adult and egalitarian like "My boyfriend and I love each other and we're a team, who grabs the check after dinner doesn't matter, so long as we're together, and hey, if women want equal rights, and we do, we shouldn't mind paying for dates if we're in a position to do that."

And it's great that now after dating this man for so long, you gotten an insight from somebody that has never met either of you, into how he _really_ feels. I'll bet you'll be thrilled to see how much better your relationship will be now.


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## Kiki (Nov 4, 2006)

lemmink said:


> Sorry, my mistake! Originally I thought you were blaming women for not finding poor guys attractive. Now I realise that it's poor guys who resent women because they feel that any financial contribution from a woman is hideously emasculating. Whoops!



Yeah, didn't you know what you should have done was find him a job (without emasculating him, of course. You know how any help from you just breaks his balls, right!). Or given up _your_ job so you would have both been equally poor and he wouldn't feel bad about being supported!  

BigFusion & Wanderer: Sure it must be frustrating that there aren't many (or any) FFAs on here based locally to you but unless you're suggesting that we all relocate to NYC or your Texas town, there's nothing we can do.


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## AZ_Wolf (Nov 4, 2006)

I don't know how to properly quote all the posts to frame the reply I most want to make so I will just wing it.  

I'm a BHM that's yet to date a woman that can pay for anything. It's not my preference, and I am absolutely not even in the same zipcode as well-off, but I don't date for money. Now, the biggest amount of money I ever lost to anyone was when I helped a college ex pay tuition because at the time she didn't know what she wanted to do, but wanted to make something of herself, so I helped her enroll in college.

But otherwise, I don't know what would stun me more -- a woman who would pay for anything beyond tonight's meal for me, or who thought I was attractive because I was a BHM. 

Edit: Please let me state that if I ever met such a woman I'd probably be very hesitant to let her, since it was so foreign. After all, I *have* dated a FFA, if briefly, so at least that isn't completely strange. But for reasons of pride, I'd never be able to not pull my own weight (proverbially-speaking), in the relationship. No one wins when a relationship is one-sided.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 4, 2006)

Relationships are not one sided merely because one person takes on the financial responsibilities.

I have a close friend who did not work outside the home for close to a year. His girlfriend worked for a paycheck while he cooked, cleaned, shopped, and emotionally supported her. He even picked her up at work to walk her home because they lived in an urban area and didn't have a car, and she didn't like walking hom alone at night. That is not one sided----it is just two partners making different contributions.

Another friend's wife supported them while he was starting his own business.

That one person contributes the cash doesn't make it one sided. Are relationships one sided if the woman is a housewife? no.


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## Laina (Nov 4, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> Relationships are not one sided merely because one person takes on the financial responsibilities.
> 
> I have a close friend who did not work outside the home for close to a year. His girlfriend worked for a paycheck while he cooked, cleaned, shopped, and emotionally supported her. He even picked her up at work to walk her home because they lived in an urban area and didn't have a car, and she didn't like walking hom alone at night. That is not one sided----it is just two partners making different contributions.
> 
> ...



Well said.

I should mention that I'm NOT supporting my boyfriend--if anything, he handles most of the financials because I'm finishing school. (I work, but I make roughly enough to pay my bills and maybe take us on a date a week.) I wonder if my relationship would be condsidered less one-sided because it's traditional?


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## Laina (Nov 4, 2006)

BigFusionNYC said:


> Wanderer - Frappr sux. I mean it never runs right, and no one ever talks there. They should've used the bandwidth to make MySpace run smoother.



Too true. Not that MySpace is any more user-friendly. I'm astounded that it got popular in the first place. Then again, I have two working myspace profiles and I log in at least once a week, even when my internet is down (and I have to hijack the boy's connection)...so I guess I'm one of those sheep keeping them in business.

But really, I don't think I could meet someone on MySpace. *shiver* Unless I want to wind up the top story at eleven.


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## Wanderer (Nov 4, 2006)

Yipe! Folks, I'm sorry I said anything!

Lemmink: My apologies, mea culpa, a thousand apologies, a thousand pardons, forgive my presumption, may the stars fall upon me in a cascade of atmoic destruction!

My stated opinion, that's all it was. Really. I meant only to imply that it feels better to a guy if he can pay his own way sometimes. That was all. Really!

Yours looking for a bunker to hide from all this artillery in,

The pummelled,

Wanderer


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## Laina (Nov 4, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> Yipe! Folks, I'm sorry I said anything!
> 
> Lemmink: My apologies, mea culpa, a thousand apologies, a thousand pardons, forgive my presumption, may the stars fall upon me in a cascade of atmoic destruction!
> 
> ...



Yes, but what are your feelings on MySpace?

/levity

I don't think any of us are trying to attack you (and I could be wrong...in which case, check your closet for Lemmink with a sledge hammer), but most of the girls on this board have been guilted by at least one BHM about how 'no one' wants them and how awful it is that we're too far away/already taken/not trotting out single friends to offer up on Hymen's altar. The implication, whether intended or not, seems to be that we're failures for not being available and accessible. (Side note: I think it's even harder on FFAs who are dating thinner guys for whatever reason. Everyone seems to think they're committing some kind of Fat Nation treason.)

That said, I think that here (of all places) people are used to throwing traditional roles out. I dated a guy who had less money than I did--and the relationship died out for totally unconnected reasons. I've also dated guys who could (and did) pay for anything and everything with whom I had absolutely no chemistry after the "omg, he's so cute!" rush had worn off. 

I wish I could offer you places to go, but I'm not familiar with your area. All I can say is that if you're interested in internet dating sites, I got an insane number of hits (and some really decent friends, if not boyfriends) on Yahoo!. Of course, that was a few years ago, so I don't know what the current spam situation is.

Good luck!


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 4, 2006)

In fact, after his initial post there were numerous posters [men and women] that offered advice, observations, and sympathy. But every subsequent post of Wanderer's was merely an increasing mass of bitterness and resentment towards everyone who didn't pity him and who didn't understand _just how bad his situation was._ If somebody dated a poor man, well, the man wasn't as poor as Wanderer. If somebody else was lonely, single or had trouble finding dates, well, it wasn't as bad as his situation. One man suggested that Wanderer puts women on pedestals, but it looks to be the opposite---that he's just resentful and angry toward women because the universe hasn't given him his just rewards for being nice. And it doesn't matter how many women have pointed out the problems with the mindset of "I'm a nice guy so why don't I get women?" he persisted in his negative thinking. He has thrown false accusations at other posters [i.e. saying you called him a psycho] and now that the poverty issue has been diluted, he turns to excessive drama and that we're all just pummeling him. He wants to play the eternal victim, and I seriously doubt anything anyone says is going to pull him out of it.


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## William (Nov 4, 2006)

Hi Laina

I would start looking in

1. A Bookstore
2. Big Mens Store 
3. Record Store in the Jazz Section

William





Laina said:


> Yes, but what are your feelings on MySpace?
> 
> /levity
> 
> ...


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## Laina (Nov 4, 2006)

William said:


> Hi Laina
> 
> I would start looking in
> 
> ...



Do you mean for him? Because I'm not looking...but thank you!  

My boyfriend would be pretty angry at me if I started dating again...funny, that.


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## Laina (Nov 4, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> In fact, after his initial post there were numerous posters [men and women] that offered advice, observations, and sympathy. But every subsequent post of Wanderer's was merely an increasing mass of bitterness and resentment towards everyone who didn't pity him and who didn't understand _just how bad his situation was._ If somebody dated a poor man, well, the man wasn't as poor as Wanderer. If somebody else was lonely, single or had trouble finding dates, well, it wasn't as bad as his situation. One man suggested that Wanderer puts women on pedestals, but it looks to be the opposite---that he's just resentful and angry toward women because the universe hasn't given him his just rewards for being nice. And it doesn't matter how many women have pointed out the problems with the mindset of "I'm a nice guy so why don't I get women?" he persisted in his negative thinking. He has thrown false accusations at other posters [i.e. saying you called him a psycho] and now that the poverty issue has been diluted, he turns to excessive drama and that we're all just pummeling him. He wants to play the eternal victim, and I seriously doubt anything anyone says is going to pull him out of it.



I missed the part of his post where he accused me of calling him a psycho (unless you're referring to the Norman Bates crack, which I prefer to think of as a joke)...but if he did and does feel that I'm accusing him of anything, I'll apologize. I thought I made it pretty clear that I never meant to attack his character, only to highlight the issues women have with self proclaimed "nice guys".

That said, you bring up a good point: when someone is playing the victim, everything feels like it's an attack. (Kind of like "when all you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail".) Which is unfortunate, because if we're all attacking, none of us can be offering advise...so even if everything we're saying is true, none of it will permeate because it feels too much like we're yelling/accusing/lecturing.

And with all that out of the way, here's the advice I hated while I was single, but which proved true: the more social you are, the more potential mates you pull toward you. This is doubly true if you go out and have fun, rather than going out to meet women. I met my boyfriend on a totally platonic night out (for both of us). My best friend met his fiance working at a summer camp. Of all of the friends I've talked to (and when you're single, you talk about meeting people an awful lot), very few of them met mates while TRYING to meet mates.

I'm not, of course, giving the old "it'll find you when you least expected" rigamarole. What I'm saying is step outside of your normal comfort zone a little bit. Do something new that looks like it might be fun. Volunteer somewhere cool, switch coffee shops, anything that appeals to you. That way you'll meet people when there's no pressure to meet people...and they'll share at least one of your interests.


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## William (Nov 4, 2006)

Any one looking for a FFA

William 




Laina said:


> Do you mean for him? Because I'm not looking...but thank you!
> 
> My boyfriend would be pretty angry at me if I started dating again...funny, that.


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## LoveBHMS (Nov 4, 2006)

Laina said:


> I missed the part of his post where he accused me of calling him a psycho (unless you're referring to the Norman Bates crack, which I prefer to think of as a joke)...but if he did and does feel that I'm accusing him of anything, I'll apologize.



I thought it came across as him being sarcastic and saying "oh...I was just a Johnny Come Lately to the nice guy thing."

Of course your advice is on target. As was the advice of others who posted to him here and on other threads. He's gotten everything from suggestions to join a writers club to switching coffee shops. At least three women [you, me, Lemminck] offered observations from the other side [being women] about men talking about being nice guys. At least one man offered helpful commentary on his thought process and one other woman simply said "hey, we all get rejected, keep trying."

But none of it made a dent, because he is, in fact, stuck playing the victim. His problems are unique which is why nobody else can understand being poor, single or lonely. If you think you know how he feels it's only because you don't understand how TRULY bad it is for him. The only person that can help him is himself, and the only thing that is going to help is when he quits feeling sorry for himself and takes some positive action to help his situation.


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## Laina (Nov 4, 2006)

LoveBHMS said:


> I thought it came across as him being sarcastic and saying "oh...I was just a Johnny Come Lately to the nice guy thing."



Hmm. I didn't read it that way. Life is too short, anyway, to be insulted by misinterpretation. If he's seriously upset about my post, there's always PMs. 



> Of course your advice is on target. As was the advice of others who posted to him here and on other threads. He's gotten everything from suggestions to join a writers club to switching coffee shops. At least three women [you, me, Lemminck] offered observations from the other side [being women] about men talking about being nice guys. At least one man offered helpful commentary on his thought process and one other woman simply said "hey, we all get rejected, keep trying."
> 
> But none of it made a dent, because he is, in fact, stuck playing the victim. His problems are unique which is why nobody else can understand being poor, single or lonely. If you think you know how he feels it's only because you don't understand how TRULY bad it is for him. The only person that can help him is himself, and the only thing that is going to help is when he quits feeling sorry for himself and takes some positive action to help his situation.



I see your point. Truth be told, I'm sympathetic to your frustration, because it's maddening to not be heard, or not be heard correctly. (Or adequately, or whatever the proper word would be in this situation.) On the other hand, I don't feel like complaining about him in a public forum is going to do anything except cause MORE feelings of victimization. Counter-productive, at the very least.

If anyone wants to PM me to vent, to ask for more advice, or to complain about something I'm saying, awesome. I'm not, however, going to continue to complain about ANYONE in this thread. I feel disrespectful talking ABOUT someone (as opposed to TO someone), even if I'm only trying to defend them. I'm not in this guy's head, so I don't KNOW what he was thinking when he responded to me...trying to guess at it feels like I'm putting words in his mouth.


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## William (Nov 5, 2006)

Hi Laina

Good for you!

I have seen too many people driven off forums because of infighting. 

If have a disagreement with someone online, most times I try my best to be very civil, it drives the other person crazy  

Most often if I do not like what a person said and it is not a major issue, I simply do not get involved in the thread

I have also seen many forums die because of people leaving and the FFA/BHM forum has always had less traffic compared to the other forums here. We should be trying to attract people.

William




Laina said:


> Hmm. I didn't read it that way. Life is too short, anyway, to be insulted by misinterpretation. If he's seriously upset about my post, there's always PMs.
> 
> .....edit......


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## Wanderer (Nov 5, 2006)

<wipes latest draft, starts over>

I'll start safe: What I said, in response to the description of Laina's encounter with a self-professed "Nice Guy", was:

"And here I was, blaming Norman Bates for the popular image of the crazed "nice guy". I see now that he's really a Johnny-Come-Lately. I hope I haven't come across as one of those life-destroying wretches myself. Not that I can get anything but a long-distance relationship on this board, unless one of you is moving to Texas next year. But still, I hope I haven't given you cause to suspect me of such foul motives."

The comparison, there, is *supposed* to be between the maybe-I-can-make-them-leave-their-boyfriend "Nice Guy" that Laina met, and the off-his-rocker Norman Bates of "Psycho" fame. I apologize for making such a convoluted reference. (The "he", btw, is referring to the fictional Norman.)

Of course, my next post was the one that landed on the boards like a burning bag of doggy-doo on a front stoop, setting off a three-way, heavily-sarcastic response from LoveBHMs, Kiki, and Lemmink. I backpedaled (as people generally do when they've stepped on a landmine) and promptly became "The Eternal Victim". (bows to LoveBHMs) Thank you, Miss Casting Director. 

Now: Yes, there was some advice on this thread, and I've run as far as I can with it. There are no writers' groups in my area, sorry, and the only coffee shops are a couple of Starbucks down near the mall. (Annoyingly, I don't like Starbucks' coffee. I'd choke it down anyway, of course, but since the local Starbucks clientele is overwhelmingly "couples coffee", there's not much point to that particular form of self-abuse.)

But I went, and I do still ask women out. Still no results; the last potential date begged off because she was widowed. But when I find a wittty, intelligent woman, I ask her out. (And I reiterate, LoveBHMs: I don't think their marital status is my fault. You can disagree if you like.)

Heck, I even asked the lone Texas FFA on the Frappr map; if she ever answers, I'll let you know.

In short: Why, yes, LoveBHMs, life has dumped on me heavily this past month. Thank you for your concern over the overt depressive tone of my postings. I'm sure I'll be all right, though.

Yours with a touch of sarcasm,

The going-to-bed,

Wanderer


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## Laina (Nov 5, 2006)

William said:


> Hi Laina
> 
> Good for you!
> 
> ...



Oh, I'll argue to the death in a handful of situations--there's a thread in this forum, even, with my snarky remarks painted all over it. There is a difference, to my mind, though between snarking AT someone (who can and does defend themselves) and snarking about someone (who has fallen inactive in the conversation).

I'm totally willing to withdraw when a debate turns into a mudslinging match...unless the mud is amusing and/or well deserved. =P (I never said I was perfect!)


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## Laina (Nov 5, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> The comparison, there, is *supposed* to be between the maybe-I-can-make-them-leave-their-boyfriend "Nice Guy" that Laina met, and the off-his-rocker Norman Bates of "Psycho" fame. I apologize for making such a convoluted reference. (The "he", btw, is referring to the fictional Norman.)



That's what I thought. *wins at life...or the internet*

And again, good luck. And good on you for getting out there and trying, even when it's daunting.

(I swear, I'm done talking now.)


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## Fat Gary NYC (Nov 6, 2006)

I haven't posted to these boards in a while... I haven't even _visited_ here in over two months, let alone posted.

I could identify a lot with what wanderer had been posting. I have a negative, cynical mindset about the whole dating situation as well. Fortunately, I'm not in the financial straits wanderer seems to be in (which is not to say I'm rich; I've got plenty of credit card debt, and although I've had my Civil Service job for over 9 years, I haven't received any promotions in all that time, so I'm still at the same salary grade I started out at in 1997). But on the other hand, whereas wanderer has had four relationships, I've only had two in my 44 years... one was with a mentally ill woman, and the other was with someone who, looking back on it now, acted selfishly, both in sexual and non-sexual matters.

I do subscribe to the belief that things happen when you're not expecting them to. Unfortunately, when it comes to getting a girlfriend, I'm _always_ expecting/thinking/hoping, so that's another roadblock I face.

In addition to my flaws (real or perceived), I have Asperger's Syndrome, which is a form of Autism. Basically, it means I don't know how to read social cues like "normal" people do, and it also hampers me from having normal conversations... I can be a great guy, but due to my Asperger's the other party has to want to climb over a lot of obstacles to discover it (whether it's a potential male/female pal, or a potential girlfriend), and I'm aware that I make it difficult to make them want to.

I don't know if I've contributed anything useful to this thread... but I had to put my two cents in.


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## lemmink (Nov 6, 2006)

Wanderer, your comment was condescending toward me and to my boyfriend. If other people took issue with that type of attitude, I think they're well within their rights to call you on it.


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## Wanderer (Nov 6, 2006)

lemmink said:


> Wanderer, your comment was condescending toward me and to my boyfriend. If other people took issue with that type of attitude, I think they're well within their rights to call you on it.



(hands up) Agreed. No argument. That's what I was trying to communicate when I backpedaled: I goofed, erred, blundered, misstepped, and generally stuck my foot so far into my mouth I had to pull down my pants to tie my shoe.

For the tiny pittance it's worth, I really didn't mean to insult you, your boyfriend, or anyone else. I chose exactly the WRONG thing to say, plus the WORST way I could've said it. Depression or no depression, I committed a horrible act of conversation, and you were ALL right to call me on it. How am I to learn what not to do, after all, unless the people I mistakenly assault with my egregious errors slap me up side the head sometimes?

But now that I've said I'm sorry... heck, I'll sing it if you want... and acknowledging there's no available way for me to make it up to you; is there any chance of my apology being accepted? Or should I get out before I'm kicked out?

Yours truly,

The draining-his-apology-reserves,

Wanderer


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## Wanderer (Nov 6, 2006)

Laina said:


> That's what I thought. *wins at life...or the internet*
> 
> And again, good luck. And good on you for getting out there and trying, even when it's daunting.
> 
> (I swear, I'm done talking now.)



Thanks, Laina. It's nice to know there's someone I didn't aggravate to the point of anger around here. Your encouragement is a sweet balm to me, and I thank you for it.

Yours up way too late,

The sleepy,

Wanderer


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## Kiki (Nov 7, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> (hands up) Agreed. No argument. That's what I was trying to communicate when I backpedaled: I goofed, erred, blundered, misstepped, and generally stuck my foot so far into my mouth I had to pull down my pants to tie my shoe.
> 
> For the tiny pittance it's worth, I really didn't mean to insult you, your boyfriend, or anyone else. I chose exactly the WRONG thing to say, plus the WORST way I could've said it. Depression or no depression, I committed a horrible act of conversation, and you were ALL right to call me on it. How am I to learn what not to do, after all, unless the people I mistakenly assault with my egregious errors slap me up side the head sometimes?
> 
> ...



Back pedalling is not the same as understanding how and why exactly you provoked the 'pummelling' (as you call it) that you received. As they teach children, it's easy to say sorry to get yourself out of trouble but it means nothing (no matter how many times you repeat the word or how eloquent you are in the way you phrase and rephrase it) until you understand why you should apologise and apologise specifically. Not that I want to set you off on another apology avalanche (I'm sure Lemmink's over the whole thing by now). And 3 sarcastic comments do not constitute a bashing. Nor does anyone wish you to leave. All anyone wants is for you to understand not just that the comments you made were insulting but also why and how.
_"Depression or no depression," _(just to reiterate that _you're_ the victim) _"I committed a horrible act of conversation, and you were ALL right to call me on it. How am I to learn what not to do, after all, unless the people I mistakenly assault with my egregious errors slap me up side the head sometimes?" _(and that lets us all know how petty you think we are, and that we shouldn't have called you on it because you played the 'lonely and depressed' card and that should protect you from taking responsibility for anything you say! Do I detect a hint of sarcasm too? Naughty, naughty!)
Just sayin'. But I won't mention it again because life's too short. You're free to post anytime (as we all are) but don't expect to get away with stuff like this just because you think we should all feel sorry for you.


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## Wanderer (Nov 7, 2006)

Kiki, you may believe as you see fit. I understand quite well why I was chastised. Since you do not believe this, however, check my answers as I drag the whole mess back to the forefront of the forum:

1. I callously, and with disregard for others' feelings, insulted a woman's devotion to her boyfriend, the boyfriend's financial situation, and their relationship as a whole.

2. I then presumed to make a statement with regard to the boyfriend's feelings upon landing a job and having money, having no insight, expertise, or sense with regard to said feelings.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason everyone got mad at me _was_ because I made a stupid, callous, foolish, insulting, egregious, and upsetting comment, and then followed it up with rank tripe, yes?

And no, thank you, my depression does _not_ excuse my actions, which is _what I was saying in the first place!_ I will try and believe that you misunderstood; you're making it very difficult, though. After all (and no sarcasm intended), you have to be more socially aware than _I_ am, at least...

Now, can we please drop the "Wanderer wants to be the Eternal Victim" business? I may be profoundly retarded when it comes to tact and sense, but I _am_ being polite, and being called "the Eternal Victim" in every second post is wearing quite thin. I've no wish to be rude, whatever my failings otherwise; please stop calling me that.

Yours truly,

The polite-to-a-fault,

Wanderer


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## Kiki (Nov 7, 2006)

Wanderer said:


> And no, thank you, my depression does _not_ excuse my actions, which is _what I was saying in the first place!_ I will try and believe that you misunderstood; you're making it very difficult, though. After all (and no sarcasm intended), you have to be more socially aware than _I_ am, at least...
> 
> Now, can we please drop the "Wanderer wants to be the Eternal Victim" business? I may be profoundly retarded when it comes to tact and sense, but I _am_ being polite, and being called "the Eternal Victim" in every second post is wearing quite thin. I've no wish to be rude, whatever my failings otherwise; please stop calling me that.
> 
> ...



I'll drop the "Wanderer wants to be the Eternal Victim" business if you will!  
But seriously, all your posts in response seemed sarcastic, flippant and to not take the grievances seriously. But, whatever...


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