# Fat Acceptance vs F/FA Acceptance movements



## Xyantha Reborn (May 8, 2015)

This thought has been tickling at me a while as I have read posts over the past few months...

There seems to be a schism with (some of) the BBW/BHM and the F/FA. Several political agendas have been brought into the picture that seem to have contributed to this, which I will go over below, but seem to have resulted in bigotry on both sides. One is this sort of perception that F/FA are creeps  which affects me more closely. 

One main trend I have seen is heavy handed feminism brought in on posts that have nothing to do with the concept. Now, I confess, I refuse to have affiliations with this movement for the same reason I refuse to identify as an atheist  peoples actions and words have left a sour taste in my mouth, and I dont want to be affiliated with the people who do those things. Do women deserve equal rights? Absolutely  I am talking about the _actions _of the _movement_. I think other strong willed, independent, heavier women may feel the same. The issues experienced by fat people are not exclusive to females; although a female may experience derogatory comments or attitudes about her sex and her size, these are two distinct issues. The constant application of size acceptance and relationships from a purely feminist perspective delegitimizes the experiences of the BHM and alienates part of the BBW community who do not identify with those actions. 

Absolutism. Some posters seem to feel they have the right to say us bbw or we females, or all men. I hate to say it so strongly; but I take offense to that. These people dont speak for me, and it actually makes me step away from the concept of ever identifying as a (smaller) BBW or even the concept of the feminist movement (which, as stated above, tend to combine). We are all unique. I know women of all sizes; some of whom are ignorant and rude, some of whom are intelligent and well spoken. I know males who are intelligent, caring, gentle  and some that are chauvinists. And on that note; that word or variations thereupon have been thrown around a lot. Which, by the by, actually applies to both sex. So when females express constant demeaning things about males.they are being chauvinists too. 

A confusion about what fat acceptance is/a discrepancy about what it means to each person. Technically, fat acceptance would mean that clothes of all appropriate sizes would be available, public transportation would accommodate those of larger size. There wouldnt be negativity  in fact people wouldnt even notice them on the street, and in bed their fat would be treated with as much indifference as freckles. However, not everyone wants to be viewed about as sexually as a lamp post. Some heavier people want to be considered attractive, sexy, etc.some BECAUSE they are fat. 

Yet, F/FAs (or people who just prefer a little cushion for the pushin) are frequently insulted and marginalized by the general populaceand by those same people who want fat acceptance themselves. That hardly seems just. Do some F/FAs act in unforgiveable ways? Absolutely  and for that same reason sometimes I wince when I identify myself as one. Their actions are not mine. However, I think it is critical to identify as one myself, because I represent a normal person with a normal life who happens to like fat guys  that swings peoples views from ew to well, its a little more normal now.

And what about those BBW and BHM who find _themselves _sexier when they are heavy? Who feel like they arent quite right in their own skin until they are heavy? Are those people fetishizing their own bodies? Or would some go so far as to accuse them of the same identity crises as transgenders (etc) experience?

I think that the fat and the F/FA acceptance movements are two different things; but they do dovetail. I dont see what is to be gained by us hating on each other, when for so long Dims had represent size appreciation and acceptance for so long. We each bring our own experience and baggage into conversations, but I would hope that we, who have experienced the insult of hearing all fat people are lazy or all chubby chasers are horrible people would be above using such language ourselves.


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## loopytheone (May 8, 2015)

I've never really understood the tension that exists between fat acceptance folk and F/FAs sometimes. But then, I am in the position of identifying as both a BBW and an FFA so obviously the two things don't feel in opposition to me.


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## fuelingfire (May 10, 2015)

I am an FA, who is very athletic/toned. I do agree that, I think that the fat and the F/FA acceptance movements are two different things. Though there are very interesting threads in the BBW section of Dims, I no longer will go into that section because of the things I have read about FAs there. I was actually a bit horrified by some of what I read, I dont remember the exact threads and this was more than 6 months ago. This is comment is not meant to bash anyone, I am sure there are FAs who are horrible people, just like there are guys who like blondes who are horrible people.

IMO the fat and FA communities should band together in the way the LGBT communities had. They are far stronger together than any of them were apart. Though the wants of both communities are not the same, they do have shared issues. I am not an expert on size acceptance.

As an FA who prefers being in LTRs, I personally would view any win/advancement for the fat (bbw/bhm) acceptance community to be a win for me as an FA. As it would/could be potentially helpful to a partner, and discrimination sucks...


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## fuelingfire (May 12, 2015)

I was personally hoping this thread would get the attention that the Why Not Fat Acceptance thread was getting. A lot of what was said in there, really applied here.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 12, 2015)

Yeah - I figured this was where we could talk about it so it wouldn't derail other threads


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## landshark (May 12, 2015)

Pretty solid topic. I'll add that, while I consider myself an FA, I am hesitant to identify as such because many automatically assume "fetishist." Now I do have a few fetishes, and I also am not making a values judgment toward those for whom weight is a fetish, I am simply stating for me, it is not and I don't like my genuine attraction to be wrongly associated with a fetish.


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## Tad (May 12, 2015)

Just to mention one factor: fat admiration is, in its very essence, a personal thing. It is what you like, and obviously not everyone is going to like the same thing. On the other hand size acceptance is a broad, cultural, thing. I think that some of the tension comes from a history of FA intruding into SA space, specifically because the people that they are attracted to are there. So they can kind of disrupt/divert/dilute the SA focus by moving some of the energy onto relationship issues.

Note that this is a kind of key difference from gay acceptance issues, in that people who are gay and who are looking for gay partners are mostly one and the same, while people who are fat and people who are looking for fat partners have only partial overlap. I think that makes the personal and the political more apt to diverge in the SA/FA circles than in gay ones.

As for any individual fat person, some of them might be more concerned about finding a partner who is attracted to them, others might be more concerned about general acceptance in society, and no doubt most would like both of the above, but if you have to run in different circles to accomplish each, and you only have so much time and energy, which do you prioritize?

================

To touch on one other small point Xyantha made in her first post: you can absolutely be an FA of yourself. Even in places like this is doesn't get talked about a lot, but for sure there are people who feel more themselves, or more attractive, or sexier, when they are fat (even knowing that most others won't see them that way). This is something that tends to get ignored (largely on purpose I'd say) but much of what I've seen of the SA movement; frequently SA seems to say "It isn't really the fat person's fault, they were born that way / live in a society that makes it hard for less advantaged people to keep their weight down / have been fat since childhood and almost nobody loses weight permanently once they are an adult, etc. 

Mentioning that some people are fat because they not just don't try to be thin, but because they choose to be fat and want to be fat, goes against the "it isn't the fat person's fault" argument. Some of those people might be happy to be a little overweight, others may only be content when they are really quite massive, but even somebody who is 200 pounds by preference weakens the "it isn't fat peoples fault" argument (and this is part of the problem with what you called "absolutist language," it tries to paint everyone the same way, when people are never, ever, all the same way. I really don't get why some people prefer to use such language).


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## Jon Blaze (May 12, 2015)

The purpose, issues, philosophies, and are different. I don't think the two are incompatible, but I've felt a need to separate them over time. Supporting body autonomy shouldn't affect my preferences, and vice versa.


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## superodalisque (May 12, 2015)

I think it's only sane to recognize they are two different things but unfortunately there are a lot of people who will try to make it overlap when it benefits them for the wrong reasons. it's a great thing when it overlaps for the right reasons. 

at the same time being aware, feminism included, can only benefit everybody in the long run unless we really don't care about the people we sleep with that aren't necessarily don't have to be fetishists or admirers. if a fat person isn't the object of fetish or fat admiration that has absolutely nothing to do with being found sexy. fat people have a lot that is sexy besides just their fat bits and even those aren't ignored by people who are into them anyway. I think for one thing we need to stop stripping people of their sexuality just because they may not be practicing it in the exact same way with the exact same foci. now that is an SA FA issue if ever there was one.


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## superodalisque (May 12, 2015)

the problem is a lot of people are talking about the movement in theory. they haven't met anybody for real. they know nothing about how this stuff works itself out for real. they haven't been around very long either.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 12, 2015)

I can agree that fat appreciation is rather personal  but I think that being a BBW or BHM can be, too.

I also absolutely agree that they are two separate movementsbut gay and transgender movements can be identified as two distinct movements too. The greater community banded together to create an umbrella of acceptance. How successful would the LGBTQ community have been if lesbians sneered at gays, while they both hated transsexuals, who loathe asexuals? Instead, they identified as facing similar types of discrimination and hatred and moved forward (as a whole) to present a united face. That is what I would ideally like to see with the two movements. Gay people are not looked down on more than transgenders because one is a preference and the other is a physical thing  I would like to see that in the SA and FA movements. The goals and philosophy should, fundamentally, be the same: acceptance of what you are, and what you prefer. 

The problem with being part of the FA community is that often, Dims is where we come to confess our deepest, darkest secrets, and I think that has given rise to the notion we are all massive fetishists who cant control ourselves  because this is where we are safe to unload that side of us. I have not had the pleasure to meet any FFA in person, but the now several FA I know are all ultra diffident, respectful, and awed by their womens bodies. When I talked to their significant others they intimated the most FA action they saw was the offer to cook a meal, and a smile when they enjoyed it, or at most a caress to a love handle while they strolled at night. There were no funnels, ropes, or immobilization.

I have several challenges with the SA movement as it relates to me and my own FFA-ness and political values. Conceptually, I can agree that people of every size deserve respect and equal treatment. But except that I am an FA and have personal visibility into the issues people experience, I would honestly have almost zero interest in the topic. Why? I am not presented with fat hatred or intolerance. None of my friends are. The hatred I see is distant and appears so far-fetched that except for my sensitivity as an FA, I would almost dismiss it. What I am trying to say, is the average person would be apathetic at best to the movement  and may even frown and ask why their size 0 pants cost the same as the size 44 pants that take up four times the fabric. 

I dont know many people who are involved in size acceptance who are not BBW/BHM or FA/FFA themselves  or who have been deeply touched by one of this group personally. Similarly to cancer  I had only a peripheral understanding of the health care system and cancer until my father in law contracted it  he is now a four time cancer survivor, and frequently gets helicoptered to the hospital for emergency treatment. And using that example  many may hiss at the expenditure of keeping an 80+ year old alive while it drains the system. Many people feel the same sort of visceral reaction to seeing fat people, because the implications of being tied to disease and burden have been embedded so strongly. So instead of apathy, deep and abiding political and social hatred can be roused.

Another is that people are coming from it from the perspective that it seems to be about FAT acceptance, not SIZE acceptance. I have not seen many here is on the proverbial picket line shoulder to shoulder with thin people while they say, Why dont they make pants smaller than a size 0?? Why do I have to drown in airplane seats that I almost fall out of? It is about fat people, for fat peoplenot size acceptance. I think so many people on here are large that they forget about the hatred and criticism you can get when you are too thin, or have other parts of your body out of the normal range. It isnt broad and accurate enough to appeal to my political side. If it is only specifically about fat acceptance, the only reason the average person would care is because they have a vested interest, like being an FA or having a close affinity with a loved and respected fat person. 

Another is that it seems to be BBW centric. Again  it isnt accurate or representative, which is key to my political beliefs. It is akin to saying racism is wrong, but being racist against x group is more important than group y. Many men and women I know find feminism in its current form irritating and insulting. Holding these two things as synonymous isnt accurate and can actually alienate people because they dont believe in one of the issues, thereby de-legitimizing the whole. People can be gay AND a BHM  just like people can be a feminist AND a BBW  but they are not synonymous, and are not representative of the movement as a whole.

I cannot, all by myself, change the views of my city, let alone my province, country, or the world. But what I can and do in fact do, is establish is intolerance in my circle of friends to racism and discrimination on all fronts, including size acceptance and fat admiration. As an FFA, I was shocked and kind of turned off at the thought of anyone over 220 lbs initially  it seemed massive and beyond the scale of my reckoning. Because of the social normative values that had been instilled in me  this is what the SA movement is up against. As I got comfortable viewing heavier people and their bodies became normal, my social norms shifted. Ive seen and felt that shift; who better to help promote size acceptance than someone who has been there, done that? That is what I try to do  shift peoples idea of normal, day by day, conversation by conversation.


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## superodalisque (May 12, 2015)

it's not just dims that gives certain impressions it's being out in the community IRL as a whole that gives them.

it's not that other people in the public won't be involved it's that they are excluded on purpose. when I asked about why the ads or invites are so secretive some organizers say they don't want anti fat protesters to show up -- the thing that would coalesce everyone no matter their interest. but I don't think that is quite true because I've been to events that advertise publically in the local newspaper and all it did was make for a bigger crowd of participants. 

some people in the community do not want the general public at various social activities or events where people could network and make allies. since some people involved are involved for business reasons. those business reasons sometimes depend on porn. they want to bring sex workers to these events. sometimes these sex workers dress and act out inappropriately in front of absolutely everyone or create situations that are inappropriate through private behaviors. but often it's not so much them as other people who sense a certain tone is set. so if you have your family friends and coworkers it cuts down on admirers who will come and spend money to see people act out in public venues. 

many of these kinds of admirers who do go to things are not interested in convincing anybody of anything. and no matter how much they white knight it online they aren't doing any activism anywhere they go. they could care less if parents friends and family are made comfortable so they can learn something and treat fat kids better. this is why admirers are not the focus of more serious events where they don't have pool parties and other things where they can see a lot of anybody's body and they are not the focus of things. so when there is just a seminar and people wear clothing they don't show up and it's not because they aren't invited. if more showed up in circumstances where they didn't get the eye candy or overt come on people would take what they say and do overall a while lot more seriously. so words and deeds aren't often adding up.

when I have explained my issues and invited people locally to support fat rights they have shown up. but then again I did trust them and invite them and I don't put them in embarrassing situations. 

and it's awfully difficult to take anybody seriously who is castigating you publically for caring about real fat rights and basically calling you a nasty feminist even while they are in a committed monogamous relationship and still propositioning you privately. you're just not going to pay that much attention to what they have to say or take it all that seriously. too many people pretending and playing games.


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## superodalisque (May 12, 2015)

I agree that some people make it more than what it is ( overt cosmetic verbal prejudice) except that those are people who aren't focusing on are real issues like healthcare discrimination is still a huge problem and it's actually killing people and misconceptions around who has diseases and why as a basis for why some people can feel they should discrimminate. access and just going places Is also a big problem. people have knee jerk reactions and assume everything is about our fat. sometimes it's about funding. sometimes we just need to get out there and raise the money people need to be able to accommodate us properly. I hardly see any of that dialog happening, just a whole lot of complaining. people talk about the lack of accommodating ambulances etc... but I haven't seen ANY national drives to help with the costs of any of those types of things. all of us like being social. one way to raise money would to be have charity events. I haven't seen any of those either.


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## fuelingfire (May 13, 2015)

I have to agree, at Dims the SA movement seems to be the fat acceptance movement. I dont think I have heard any discussion on little people (the non-pc term being dwarf). Outside of Dims they are a huge part of the size acceptance movement.

I have to admit that when I write at Dims, all of my comments are as a hetero male attracted to fat women. I like to think that what I write could easily be flipped around for FFAs. I frequently wonder what the male to female ratio is here on Dims (excluding the paysite area). Or is it just like referring to a person as him when the sex of a person is not clarified.

As a FA, I often feel that in these SA threads, I am reading, This is not your fight, get out of here. As a person who cares, what is left for me but apathy? I guess when it comes down to it, if I could get 50 FAs in a room to discuss FA  acceptance, I am not sure what the message would actually be. If it was 50 teen FAs who were in the closet, I could raddle a speech off the top of my head of what I think they would need to hear.

I hypothetically believe that if all of the goals of the size acceptance movement were achieved, F/FAs wouldnt need a FA movement. Having a fat partner rather than a thing one, would be like having a partner with brown hair rather than a blonde. 

If you have to take the time at Dims to explain in detail the differences between size acceptance and FA acceptance movements, how difficult would it be to explain to people who dont know anything about either movement? To the general population, they would probably lose interest before you finish explaining it. 

In the last 5 or 10 years there have been a big deal made over there being more plus-size clothing/lingerie (non-porn) models. Especially on non-Dims websites. And its discussed how big for size acceptance this is. Which can be a whole bucket of worms itself. As a FA, I like the idea of the general population seeing non-starving female bodies and still seeing them as attractive. As a FA, I see that as a huge step forword even if its not intended. Though FFAs are 100 % left out of this.


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## superodalisque (May 14, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I have to agree, at Dims the SA movement seems to be the fat acceptance movement.I don’t think I have heard any discussion on “little people” (the non-pc term being dwarf).Outside of Dims they are a huge part of the size acceptance movement.
> 
> I have to admit that when I write at Dims, all of my comments are as a hetero male attracted to fat women.I like to think that what I write could easily be flipped around for FFAs.I frequently wonder what the male to female ratio is here on Dims (excluding the paysite area).Or is it just like referring to a person as “him” when the sex of a person is not clarified.
> 
> ...


 
the biggest most helpful thing "admirers" could do is to stop hiding and stop acting ashamed or like they _are_ creepy and abnormal. stop looking around to see who disapproves. stop raising your head every time the creep word comes up as though it naturally applies to you. stop lumping yourselves in with those people just because you need some kind of a label or identity. stand up. be able to do it on your own when necessary. be who you are. stop being so fearful that you'll cling together with anyone at all even remotely resembling you. in other words be whole lot more discerning about your actions and associates and make sure to put certain concerns on the back burner when needed. that would help your position in the movement a lot.


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## fuelingfire (May 14, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> the biggest most helpful thing "admirers" could do is to stop hiding and stop acting ashamed or like they _are_ creepy and abnormal. stop looking around to see who disapproves. stop raising your head every time the creep word comes up as though it naturally applies to you. stop lumping yourselves in with those people just because you need some kind of a label or identity. stand up. be able to do it on your own when necessary. be who you are. stop being so fearful that you'll cling together with anyone at all even remotely resembling you. in other words be whole lot more discerning about your actions and associates and make sure to put certain concerns on the back burner when needed. that would help your position in the movement a lot.


 
Why would you quote me, yet not respond to what I wrote? Your post belongs in this thread. But it seems like you are talking but not listing. Was there a specific part of my post you are commenting on? 

I am unsure if you are personally talking to me or FAs in general. Your repeated use of you your youll makes it sound like you are talking to me. I am not in the closet, and have not been for since I was 17, and am now 33.


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## Nordiques (May 14, 2015)

I think a lot of the schism comes from the fact that it can sometimes be hard to trust the intentions of people who are attracted to larger people, as much as I hate to type that. I see, from time-to-time, people who really support size acceptance...but seem to support it because they're attracted to people of more unique or less-accepted sizes. There are people who think, for example, that larger women should be free to wear bikinis at the beach, have flattering roles in film, and be on billboard advertisements not because equality is the right thing, but rather because such outcomes would be attractive to them based on their own sexual preferences.

Maybe that's a "more good than harm" proposition because the outcome would be beneficial. At the same time, though, getting there for the wrong reasons -- to more easily objectify another segment of the population -- seems counterproductive. I suspect this causes a lot of the tension. I'd find it justified if it did.

And in some ways, I'm willing to admit experiencing that tension within my own views. I've always been inclined toward women of size, ever since I was in elementary school. Equally, I've been open about that for years. I have no trouble accepting my own preference, and no trouble having relationships outside it (many great ones have been with women who no one would classify as large).

I do, however, have trouble accepting what my preference (and the similar one of others) means, or where it stands in life. At what point does it cross the line from "this is something I can't help; I'm naturally attracted to it and if someone else wants this to be part of a relationship, why shouldn't we have that together?" to "this is something that objectifies people or, despite being shared, is somewhat selfish?"

There are some things that are clearly wrong (to me, at least); manipulative behavior, for example, around someone's weight is never going to be okay, in my opinion. But there are other complexities in having a preference that can be seen by one as a sweet part of a relationship and by others as taking it too far.

Restated, look at any type of analogous situation. People always seem to turn to the, "well, some men prefer women blonde hair" argument. Yet what relationship do we know of that centers on blonde hair? At what point are we calling something a preference (which is a far more comfortable thing to say you have) when it is really a lot deeper than that?

Equally, I see some people with strict rules. "I only date people of this religion" or "I only date people from this race." I, personally, do not only date women of size, but some I've encountered really are exclusive. Do we view that as, "well, that's what they like, of course they should do that," or do we view that as, "there's so much more to people than size, open your mind?"

Because of this, I can't fault the size acceptance movement for the schism. I think it's right there in that last line: *there's so much more to people than size.* That's directly at odds with an FA view that seemingly (and I could be wrong) wants to make size more of a priority.

Indeed, I remember telling a friend, years and years ago, about my preference. He said, "it's great that you can see past someone's looks like that." I remember telling him, "oh, no. In fact, it's more like opposite -- it's just that what I find attractive is different from what a lot of others do." That seemed harmless to say, but the more I think about it, the more I see the schism in that. In a size-accepting world, we wouldn't say, "she's beautiful because she's fat" like we would in a fat-admiring one. We'd just say, "she's beautiful." And that's a big distinction -- a big enough one to cause a divide.


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## bigmac (May 14, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> the biggest most helpful thing "admirers" could do is to stop hiding and stop acting ashamed or like they _are_ creepy and abnormal. ...



Damn those _creeps_ around every corner.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 14, 2015)

I understand where that perception can come from, especially given some of the more extreme behaviour that has been exhibited! But I find the general statements (and I'm using this as an example only, I'm not trying to pick on this particular sentence) "it...can be hard trust the intentions of people who are attracted to larger people" as weird as saying 'It...can be hard to trust the intentions of people who are overweight." 

It is taking negative, general things and putting them into a word, then applying it to a whole group of people (which, if it is a gut reaction isn't necessarily invalidated, but it does deeply sadden me). In the same way the overarching world says fat is lazy, stupid, unworthy, ugly .... FA seem to be labelled (even by fellow Dim'mers) as creepy, sadistic, manipulative, untrustworthy, selfish.

How FA seem to feel about their identity shifts - some days it seems more important than others. Some days I feel like my hard wire is going crazy and I notice it more - other times I don't notice it for months. Do I like fat guys? Hell yes. I am married to an incredibly intelligent, tolerant, handsome guy whose body also drives me wild. I am also a corporate climber who adores animals and does competitions with them. I am a sister, an aunt, a cousin. I go out eat with friends without staring at their fat. I am so, so fortunate to be with a man who has taken enough philosophy etc to understand that I have a sexual preference, but it isn't my only appreciation for him. 

Especially to us married FA (to quote my husband): "For you, my dear, the war is over". Other than a peripheral appreciation for a body set, many of us have no vested interest in other people's size anymore. Some of us come to be around people who have similar interests - some of us come for support. To say that FA (meaning all because I didn't specify) have ulterior motives in the SA movement because they get to see more fat people is akin to other people's kneejerk opinion about the SA movement - of course fat people want acceptance, that way they can be lazy and not lose weight. 

My interest in the SA movement is because I don't think that other (especially the next generations) should experience the stress and hatred that others did. Period. It isn't right, it isn't fair, and I don't think my little cousins, sisters, or nieces (i just don't have many male little ones) to go through what others have gone through. Not only that - how can I NOT try to make the world a better place for my own husband?

One reason I started this thread is because I feel like there are misconceptions and hatred surrounding FA's that make it difficult to support the SA movement. If I was to show up at an event, for example, would I be sneered at and set aside because I was a creepy FA who had some alternative motive? Or would it be oh, hey, there is Xyantha, I'm so glad you could come? Based on a lot of the responses in various threads I have seen, I've almost started to feel like it would be the former...


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## superodalisque (May 15, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> Why would you quote me, yet not respond to what I wrote?Your post belongs in this thread. But it seems like you are talking but not listing. Was there a specific part of my post you are commenting on?
> 
> I am unsure if you are personally talking to me or FAs in general.Your repeated use of “you” “your” “you’ll” makes it sound like you are talking to me.I am not in the closet, and have not been for since I was 17, and am now 33.



you're right. it was late. I was tired and I thought I was making a separate post and got off.
however I stand by my point. ignore that issue and nothing will ever change between the two groups.


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## Nordiques (May 15, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> I understand where that perception can come from, especially given some of the more extreme behaviour that has been exhibited! But I find the general statements (and I'm using this as an example only, I'm not trying to pick on this particular sentence) "it...can be hard trust the intentions of people who are attracted to larger people" as weird as saying 'It...can be hard to trust the intentions of people who are overweight."
> 
> It is taking negative, general things and putting them into a word, then applying it to a whole group of people (which, if it is a gut reaction isn't necessarily invalidated, but it does deeply sadden me). In the same way the overarching world says fat is lazy, stupid, unworthy, ugly .... FA seem to be labelled (even by fellow Dim'mers) as creepy, sadistic, manipulative, untrustworthy, selfish.
> 
> ...



I am not saying that what you describe is not true, but you deleted words in my sentence to "prove" your point, and am sorry to say I don't like that.

"It can sometimes be hard to trust the intentions of people who are attracted to larger people, as much as I hate to type that."​
Please note the words "can" and "sometimes." To then remove those words and call it a general statement that labels everyone in the group is really counter-productive to what you're trying to say.

I do realize you said you were not trying to pick on the particular sentence, but since no such sentence was even typed, I had to address that. Your argument would be stronger if you were to find a real quote to use, not an altered one that takes out the keywords.

Now, I agree with you on some things -- not everyone who has a preference or attraction is manipulative. Not everyone is creepy. Not everyone is anything at all, quite honestly. But just because there are exceptions, and just because those exceptions may even be the majority, we equally can't generalize in the opposite direction that no one is manipulative, no one is creepy, or no one has ulterior motives. Those people do exist, and while it may be a shame that their existence "ruins" it for others, you also can't blame the victims of those types of attitudes or actions for having a hard time trusting the intentions of others. When you see it enough, you start to default at distrust, and while that's not good, you also have to admit that it can't be helped.

It all comes back to dignity. One could say "I like tall men," and that can be healthy when that person is attracted to the tall partner. But doesn't it go past healthy if his being tall is the absolute center of the relationship, the absolute core of why they fell in love, something valued so much they post on an Internet forum about how great tall men are, something that becomes part of their own identity?

Sure, many would treat the hypothetical tall man with dignity while still enjoying his tallness, but enough bad experiences and I think anyone would be rational to see red flags even in the most harmless presentation of the preference.

I note, again, that I write all this as what this forum would call an FA. Like you, I perceive negativity about being one -- but my response to it is recognition that such negativity, while not true of me personally and not true of many others, does have a justification.

In that, there has to be self-reflection. There has to be an understanding that these people's feelings are just as legitimate as anyone else's, and that maybe the first step to close any gap between the two groups isn't to accuse the other group of doing this or that, but to understand what we, ourselves, can do better.


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## superodalisque (May 15, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Damn those _creeps_ around every corner.


 
oh yeah, it really helps the ol image to protect and join up with the people who really are creepy just because they like some of the same things you like right?


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## bigmac (May 15, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> oh yeah, it really helps the ol image to protect and join up with the people who really are creepy just because they like some of the same things you like right?



The BBW/FA scene is full of people with issues to work through (both sexes). Sorry we're not all up to your standard.


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## superodalisque (May 15, 2015)

bigmac said:


> The BBW/FA scene is full of people with issues to work through (both sexes). Sorry we're not all up to your standard.


 

it's to be expected that people have issues. that is perfectly fine and definitely understandable. but you don't let those people stand out front and define the whole movement for public consumption when they aren't ready just yet especially when they aren't able to compartmentalize as needed. that's foolish. there is a very big difference between having a place to work through issues and being the images of movements. until people get that their personal issues are not necessarily an entire movement they're going to have a problem appealing to a lot of people who actually want that movement to get somewhere. and until they stop focusing on knee jerk reactions regarding the emotions they are going through and are able to focus on them in a more public relations oriented way they are going to fail too. people need to know how to make themselves understood to the public in a movement. it's not a place to just go and vetch about your personal problems and get attention. there are ways to express those issues so that you can get more public support. but that comes with thinking and organization not just blubbering and venting. that's why people are always complaining that they were edited badly. there are ways to say things and ways to chose situations where it's much harder to make the person and the movement look entirely stupid.. the general public is not going to overlook personal discrepancies the way that a website like this might at times. no one is going to suspend reality to spare their feelings. and actually in some situations there should be less of that here, because when people are damaged or working through something it doesn't help them to lie and pretend with them.


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## superodalisque (May 15, 2015)

another thing that needs to be considered is that, as far as I know, there aren't any serious FFA/FA movements except when a few individuals piggyback on the fat acceptance/ size acceptance movement. that may be a big issue. if "admirers" actually had a movement of their own I think that would alleviate a lot of the stress between the two groups. but so far I haven't seen the political will and every group I know of that has started has fallen apart. is it really smart for the size acceptance movement to put so much emphasis on something that seems to lack so much public passion and actual movement on it's own especially if it's main concern is fat when the movements are morphing into being more about size acceptance than fat acceptance anyway. the fact that there is still a concentration on the idea of "fat acceptance" rather than size acceptance also speaks to how a lot of ideas of "admirers" are behind the curve when it comes to where the dynamics of size acceptance is moving. and like this thread, there are a lot of admirers talking about where size acceptance should go and what people in size acceptance should be doing about them but they've never actually been actively involved at all. that is a problem too. not everything about weight related movements is there to be our personal stomping ground. no one is entitled to damage an entire movement out of personal needs.


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## fuelingfire (May 15, 2015)

Nordiques, that larger women should be free to wear bikinis at the beach, have flattering roles in film, and be on billboard advertisements not because equality is the right thing, but rather because such outcomes would be attractive to them based on their own sexual preferences. as a FA I can see both sides. I love seeing Melissa McCarthy and Rebel Wilson in movies, because I find them attractive. Which isnt any different than a non-FA liking seeing a thin attractive person in a movie. But the part of me that wants size acceptance detests the fat jokes that are in every movie they are in (or I am unaware of a movie either has been in that doesnt have fat jokes). I also like seeing different sized body types in movies.

I use the blonde hair reference, because I have a friend who only dates blonde girls. I have known him for over 15 years and though the girls personality and look have varied greatly, everyone of his girlfriends have been blonde. And he has outright told me he will only date blondes or girls who always dye their hair blonde

Because of this, I can't fault the size acceptance movement for the schism. I think it's right there in that last line: there's so much more to people than size. That's directly at odds with an FA view that seemingly (and I could be wrong) wants to make size more of a priority. I wouldnt say its assigning fault. There being a divide does make sense. I just think the exclusion of groups doesnt make sense when there is (or could be) common ground.

I frequently have to explain to people that, personality is far more important. Though I have dated exlusively BBWs since my late teens, every one of them have had great personalities. I have not ever sold out my principles for a hot fat chick, who had a clashing personality. Every relationship I have had is about the girl I am with, who happens to be fat. They are normal relationships, with normal people.

Xyantha, you saved me a lot of typing. I am still unable to give you more rep, but you deserve it. Post #19 was perfect!

Bigmac, I guess I also reped you recently because I cant rep you for post #23 yet.


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

with regards to post 23, keep lumping yourselves in a group with convicted known felons who have been involved in sexual assault, the illegal use and discharge of fire arms, theft and convicted pedophiles then okay. see how much trust you gain and see how savory you all will look to public eyes.


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## CleverBomb (May 16, 2015)

That seems a little harsh. 
Are you discussing an actual group that contains "...convicted known felons who have been involved in sexual assault, the illegal use and discharge of fire arms, theft and convicted pedophiles..." or is this just rhetorical? And is this an actual group, or just a collection of individuals who share a similar self-designation?


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## wrestlingguy (May 16, 2015)

CleverBomb said:


> That seems a little harsh.
> Are you discussing an actual group that contains "...convicted known felons who have been involved in sexual assault, the illegal use and discharge of fire arms, theft and convicted pedophiles..." or is this just rhetorical? And is this an actual group, or just a collection of individuals who share a similar self-designation?



I don't think it's rhetorical, though I do think that the mix of people being referred to can also be said for groups like politicians, clergy, and celebrities.

That isn't to make it sound "right" because everyone else may be involved in these activities. However, in a world where we strive to not be discriminated against or have hate directed at us, we should at least TRY to rise above those kinds of activities. After all, could anyone say anything negative about Jackie Robinson and all the other pioneers of baseball's integration era? I will tell you no, and I will also tell you that the players in the Negro League used to police themselves, as they knew that MLB integration was coming, and wanted to be sure they were above reproach.

I ran plus sized events for a little over 4 years. I stopped my involvement in them because of those same things Supero described in her post. People were robbed, sexually and violently assaulted, and in one case a minor (who was at the hotel with her older friend) was taken from the hotel to a nightclub where she was served a LOT of alcohol by a few unsavory characters who attended our dance.

So, I have to tell you this isn't fabrication by SuperO, and I really hope no one was accusing her of fabricating a story because I can promise you these things not only exist in the BBW/FA community, but can thrive if people continue to sweep it under the rug.

Sorry if this temporarily derailed the thread. Please carry on as I've found this to be one of the most interesting threads here in quite some time.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 16, 2015)

Nordiques it was not my intention to mangle your words and if it came across that way I sincerely apologize. I thought _can _and _sometimes _were synonymous in the context. Using your full quote, however, I believe my point stands. 

you: "It can sometimes be hard to trust the intentions of people who are _attracted to larger people,_ as much as I hate to type that." Why? Because FA are creepy, terrible people?

me substituting: "It can sometimes be hard to trust the intentions of people who are _fat_, as much as I hate to type that." Why? Because fat people are useless people who take advantage of the system?

Its so generic and allows people to embody hate, and statements that that can sometimes perpetuate hatred.



superodalisque said:


> with regards to post 23, keep lumping yourselves in a group with convicted known felons who have been involved in sexual assault, the illegal use and discharge of fire arms, theft and convicted pedophiles then okay. see how much trust you gain and see how savory you all will look to public eyes.



SuperO - the way your write things is highly insulting, which I assume you are doing on purpose as part of an instigation method. However, can you please tone your responses down to the level of the conversation? I have not purposefully insulted anyone. My responses are calm. You keep wondering why people take your words personally - but the way your write is highly accusatory and inflammatory. 'FAs' are not a group of convicted felons and rapists any more than fat people are a group of lazy idiots who are incapable of taking care of their children or holding a job. If you are going to make such a broad statement, at least have the courtesy to bring some proof, no matter how fallacious. 

Wrestlingguy brings some context, which definitely assists. Once again; are there FAs who are terrible people? Yes, yes, yes! But proportionately, FA's are a pretty small part of the population. There are far, far more terrible non FAs than FAs, I would be inclined to state. And are there fat mothers who are too lazy to take care of their own children and let them go into the system rather than work to feed them? Yes. But how insulting, derogatory, and uncalled for would it be for me to simply turn around and say "Maybe you fat people would get more respect if you weren't part of a group of people who are convicted child neglecters who are involved in bleeding the system dry and ruining healthcare for all of us hard working people." That's pretty out of line.
That's like going to a part of the US where there is a high population of poor people, crime, and who also happen to black people and then saying that all black people are poor and cause crimes. So, so, wrong and uncalled for. Yet - are there people who commit crimes who are also black? Yes. But the way i wrote that sentence, and the meaning, are far different than black people commit crimes. See the difference?

In the FA movement - and keep in mind I use that term for clarity sake - as far as I use the term, I think all most of us want is to not be hated. I don't even need the world to fully accept my preferences. If they are a little uncomfortable, that's ok because I wont throw it in their face...it's between my, myself, and mine (mine being my husband). Is that really too much to ask? To not be the object of antipathy?

Is it too much to ask that clothes and conveniences of the world accommodate people of all stature, and that they not be discriminated against because of their size?

Is it really so unreasonable to want to hang out with people who had to go through self realization the same as you? To have perhaps been with loved ones who revile their own bodies to the point it damages you, as their significant other? To want to provide a support network for the younger generations? 

Parallel: Why else would BBW and BHM congregate here? Other than your size, many have nothing in common and/or would never have met under normal circumstances. But I know many of you confer over events in your life, experiences, problems...some with size, some not.


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## bigmac (May 16, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> with regards to post 23, keep lumping yourselves in a group with convicted known felons who have been involved in sexual assault, the illegal use and discharge of fire arms, theft and convicted pedophiles then okay. see how much trust you gain and see how savory you all will look to public eyes.




What the hell are you talking about?


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## bigmac (May 16, 2015)

wrestlingguy said:


> ...
> 
> I ran plus sized events for a little over 4 years. I stopped my involvement in them because of those same things Supero described in her post. People were robbed, sexually and violently assaulted, and in one case a minor (who was at the hotel with her older friend) was taken from the hotel to a nightclub where she was served a LOT of alcohol by a few unsavory characters who attended our dance.
> 
> ...



Anyone who runs a bar, a club, or a hotel has to deal with this kind of thing. Its a fact of life and at all limited to the BBW/FA scene.


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## bigmac (May 16, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> it's to be expected that people have issues. that is perfectly fine and definitely understandable. but you don't let those people stand out front and define the whole movement ... .




And just how would you suggest they be stopped? Last time I looked we all (even the stupid and offensive) have a right to stand up and express our feelings (no matter how ill-informed) to anyone who'll listen.


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## bigmac (May 16, 2015)

I hate being this negative -- but every attempt at fat activism I've seen has been a bloody disaster.

I've come to the conclusion that the issues of fat people are best dealt with through more general movements. Unions and labor movement pushes for equitable employment laws and practices help fat people. Public accommodation laws and practices help fat people. ... Indeed anything that advocates inclusiveness helps fat folks.

Example: Years ago I attended a union anti-discrimination workshop. The facilitator asked if anyone had experience with workplace discrimination. I'm sure she was looking for examples of racial or gender discrimination. However, several of the women participants brought up examples of anti-fat bias and discrimination. To her credit the facilitator ran with it and a good discussion followed.


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## wrestlingguy (May 16, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Anyone who runs a bar, a club, or a hotel has to deal with this kind of thing. Its a fact of life and at all limited to the BBW/FA scene.



Two points:

1. People who run bars, clubs or hotels aren't looking for any kind of social justice as fat activists are, and

2. As someone who chose to get involved in running those events, I also *chose* to stop being involved in running those same events. I chose not to engage in what I felt was pimping, simply by providing the venue for the NJ Bash. I also chose to stop because I no longer wanted to deal with the emotional stress of some of the fat "victims" who entered into casual relationships with people without ever making an effort to know who they were dealing with, and ended up having money and personal property stolen, or even being assaulted (physically/sexually), and almost as bad, having to do the "walk of shame" back to their hotel rooms, amidst the community gossip. I don't live in a bubble, and if you read my previous posts, you'd know I said that this exists outside the fat community. As someone who deals with the non fat world as much as I do/did the fat community, I can say with my experience that these things occur far more in the fat world than they do in the rest of the world.


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

the very fact that people refuse to acknowledge these things and differentiate themselves from the people doing it is exactly why there is stress between the two groups. the fact that people are more interested in keeping fat people from talking about it than sharing the moral outrage over the occurrences is exactly why people serious about the acceptance movement have no faith that they will do the right thing or that their motives are pure. the evidence that they won't err on the side of fat people is already out there. tons of evidence of gas lighting fat people is already out there. this mistrust doesn't come from thin air or lack of experiences. it's totally valid to seriously scrutinize people who generally for all intents and purposes aren't willing to protect fat people and treat them all like liars as a first action when they say they've been hurt.


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

bigmac said:


> What the hell are you talking about?


 

the fact that you don't know what i'm talking about speaks to the fact that you aren't educated enough to what is actually going on or personally connected to the concerned groups enough to know what is/has actually been going on. if you really cared about the issue you would already know. various occurrences aren't a secret to people who are actually dealing with people . the very fact that you are so OOTL or don't care about recent issues that have sometimes even been in newspapers says a lot.


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

bigmac said:


> I hate being this negative -- but every attempt at fat activism I've seen has been a bloody disaster.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that the issues of fat people are best dealt with through more general movements. Unions and labor movement pushes for equitable employment laws and practices help fat people. Public accommodation laws and practices help fat people. ... Indeed anything that advocates inclusiveness helps fat folks.
> 
> Example: Years ago I attended a union anti-discrimination workshop. The facilitator asked if anyone had experience with workplace discrimination. I'm sure she was looking for examples of racial or gender discrimination. However, several of the women participants brought up examples of anti-fat bias and discrimination. To her credit the facilitator ran with it and a good discussion followed.


 

that's easy to say if someone has never even attempted anything. it's easy to armchair quarterback. and that is why the movement is not listening to the FFA/FA movement because for the most part, as far as I know, there isn't really one.


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> Nordiques it was not my intention to mangle your words and if it came across that way I sincerely apologize. I thought _can _and _sometimes _were synonymous in the context. Using your full quote, however, I believe my point stands.
> 
> you: "It can sometimes be hard to trust the intentions of people who are _attracted to larger people,_ as much as I hate to type that." Why? Because FA are creepy, terrible people?
> 
> ...


 
continue to gaslight distract and avoid the issue. the lack of trust comes from people's experiences. until fat people are addressed with real concern and respect when they speak up instead of deflection demonization and invalidation like they are enemies anyway no one is going to trust the motives of "admirers" when it comes to fat politics and activism. 

you're making the same mistake a lot of people make, equating a bar like mentality with the same mentality you use when you are after political goals. activism isn't about trolling for sex partners -- and there in lies the rub. so comparing the reasons why most people come here to the reasons most people decide to be politically involved makes no sense whatsoever.


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

bigmac said:


> And just how would you suggest they be stopped? Last time I looked we all (even the stupid and offensive) have a right to stand up and express our feelings (no matter how ill-informed) to anyone who'll listen.


 
we don't have to pretend we support stupid stuff


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I have to agree, at Dims the SA movement seems to be the fat acceptance movement.I don’t think I have heard any discussion on “little people” (the non-pc term being dwarf).Outside of Dims they are a huge part of the size acceptance movement.
> 
> I have to admit that when I write at Dims, all of my comments are as a hetero male attracted to fat women.I like to think that what I write could easily be flipped around for FFAs.I frequently wonder what the male to female ratio is here on Dims (excluding the paysite area).Or is it just like referring to a person as “him” when the sex of a person is not clarified.
> 
> ...


 
there is no or size acceptance or fat acceptance _movement_ at dims. dims hasn't created or organized one activistic event in the nearly twelve years I've been here. it has been discussed here and some people here also happen to be involved elsewhere but that is all. years ago when people _were_ pressing for this to be more of a Size Acceptance or an Fat Acceptance site we were told out right that it was for FAs. so I think a lot of people here are confused about what the actual purpose of this place is. it was clarified for many of us a long time ago, which is partially why a lot of people left and never came back or rarely come back compared to when lots of people were on all day everyday in the forums and in chat when they thought it was. a sizeable percentage of admirers let them know in no uncertain terms that BBWs in particular were welcomed to be sexy but they weren't really interested in improving the situational stresses between the two groups or dealing with the politics.

fat sex sites often use a veneer of FA or SA as a way to draw in fat women who are trying to find themselves and don't know the difference between that and activism. just because someone likes your body doesn't mean they give a damn about your political rights. so look at the dims tagline again. it doesn't say anything at all about fat acceptance or size acceptance. it says exactly what it means.


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## wrestlingguy (May 16, 2015)

Most of the people who post today on these forums haven't been around for more than 10 years. While they enjoy this site, they don't really know or understand the history of Dimensions Magazine & the website, whose purpose was to separate the fat admirer part of the fat acceptance movement that was the agenda of NAAFA. For those of you who would like to read about the beginnings of the fat acceptance movement, take a few minutes and read the following article from Time Magazine Online
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1913858,00.html

OR, you can read the wikipedia page on Fat Acceptance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_fat_acceptance_movement

In both cases you can see that the early part of the movement focused strictly on the social issue of inequality when it came to fat people. It was via Dimensions Magazine (the paper issue), and later the website that the sexual aspect of attraction to fat became a focal point. In fact our former owner/webmaster was instrumental in facilitating that change of focus, and while NAAFA became less significant as time went on, Dims became a hub for fat admiration. When I arrived in 1997 there was a lot of discussion about fat related issues, and they were intermingled with posts about feederism, fat sexuality and anything else under the sun, but it was discussed with in 2-3 forums (as I can best recall).

And so it was also your former webmaster who made the Dims forums even more divisive by adding a forum for virtually every aspect of fat, with even a greater focus on the sexual attraction by establishing the Paysite Board, the Fat Sexuality Board, and forced some women to go underground with the "secret" SSBBW Board. So while it made a safe haven for people of a particular sexual inclination, people began to dig in within their safe space, and division within this online community flourished even more.

I'm not blaming previous ownership for the fat acceptance movement being stagnant. I will say that going back 18 years ago, when I typed in the link to this website for the first time, I saw an awful lot more overall involvement in fat acceptance being talked about (and action being taken) than I do today, and while I'm not sure if it was in response to community demands, or a deliberate attempt to make the site more sexy (because sex sells - compare the participation in this forum with the Paysite Board & tell me I'm wrong), but the site/forums did facilitate a change in focus, and fat acceptance paid the price for that.

The good news is, you all have an opportunity to change that. You can discuss more activism here. The fact that this thread exists is encouraging. I see a lot of idealistic young people who can take activism to the next level, and some of them post here. Like any other movement, take the time to read (not just short articles like the ones I linked to above) the real history, talk to the older people who were active in the 80's & 90's to get a real sense of perspective.

Most of all (and I said this in another thread), I feel that sexuality needs to be removed from fat activism (and kept separate) because no social movement that has succeeded has ever had sexuality at the forefront of the movement. .


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## superodalisque (May 16, 2015)

great post Wrestlinguy

and I would like to say here that on these forums the term feminist is used as a derisive term even though the entirety of fat acceptance, now size acceptance, movement was initially a feminist concept even when I was a girl of 12 back in the 70s. I remember Carol Shaw talking about it very early on. she was active in the media and she was well spoken and succinct. she had a whole lot less opposition from the public than the movement does now. mainly because in those days, BBW , the term she coined was about body autonomy and respect for big women and not at all about sexual exploitation. and she had been influenced by the feminists of the early 60s who did things like put out the fat liberation manifesto which from the very beginning inextricably linked sizeism with sexism. 

the fact that you have a lot of people here who believe any progress should be due to fat women or any fat person basing their acceptability on their viability as sex objects proves just how little they know or care about the history of fat acceptance at all and how in opposition they are to what has always been it's basic tenants. it was only after Carol Shaw sold the rights to the term BBW that it was used as mainly an association with porn that suddenly feminism and the term BBW became suddenly somehow incompatible in the minds of some. unless someone is capable of associating themselves with the basic ideals of feminism centered around equality I doubt they would be comfortable with true size acceptance either. so by it's very nature "admiration" is in opposition to what size acceptance has been trying to accomplish politically from the beginning when some members pressure fat people to put admiration ideals above actual political ones. even when you google BBW Carol Shaw now and hit the video button hoping you'll find a old clip of her from the Phil Donahue show all you get is porn videos. as far as the movement goes it's like invasion of the body snatchers. 

it's great that you mentioned NAAFA. people act as though admirers were never given a seat at the table but NAAFA tried to make a lot of room for admirers and especially fetishists. what it ended up doing was basically destroying the internal integrity of the organization and corrupting the core ideals and trust inside that community because of people taking way too many liberties and opportunities to mix their personal lives with the business at hand in obviously unsustainable ways. what NAAFA is doing today is much more business like and on track but unfortunately a lot of damage was done and a whole lot of people from that generation still have a very nasty taste left in their mouths. people who are actually fat activists today are well aware of that situation and to their credit they aren't in a hurry to repeat the mistake.

I don't think there would be much opposition to more participation if there weren't admirers out there who were trying to rewrite size acceptance history and make themselves the center and the prime arbiters. when they did it was a failure.


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## bigmac (May 17, 2015)

wrestlingguy said:


> ... I also chose to stop because I no longer wanted to deal with the emotional stress of some of the fat "victims" who entered into casual relationships with people without ever making an effort to know who they were dealing with, and ended up having money and personal property stolen, or even being assaulted (physically/sexually), and almost as bad, having to do the "walk of shame" back to their hotel rooms, amidst the community gossip. I don't live in a bubble, and if you read my previous posts, you'd know I said that this exists outside the fat community. As someone who deals with the non fat world as much as I do/did the fat community, I can say with my experience that these things occur far more in the fat world than they do in the rest of the world.



Yeah I know this stuff occurs (although I never personally heard of any physical assaults or outright theft). I can't count the number of times I've heard acquaintances says_* "I can't believe he did that." *_ Every time I've thought -- _What the fuck? -- It was bloody obvious!_. Bottom line -- people can and do make some really stupid choices. Learn from it and grow up. 

Indeed many of these supposed "victims" were warned -- their friends told them what was going to happen -- but they deluded themselves into thinking that they were somehow different from all the women who went before them. Under these circumstances I have a hard time being sympathetic.


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## bigmac (May 17, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> the fact that you don't know what i'm talking about speaks to the fact that you aren't educated enough to what is actually going on or personally connected to the concerned groups enough to know what is/has actually been going on. if you really cared about the issue you would already know. various occurrences aren't a secret to people who are actually dealing with people . the very fact that you are so OOTL or don't care about recent issues that have sometimes even been in newspapers says a lot.



Perhaps you should share the link to the _men are evil_ website.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 17, 2015)

Really? I am perpetuating a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity? Because I disagree with you, am offering parallels, and am asking questions?

How is calling people who disagree with you uneducated even remotely acceptable? Lets try and keep it above the belt. This is meant to be a genuine discussion, not about demeaning others. If you want to start that, can you please start an appropriate thread in hyde park? 

History should definitely be known, however in context. Keep in mind that while those same dates give you history, it can also distance you from the 'now'. Just as the prohibition movement changed, so too can? has? will? the SA movement. Look at Carrie Nation - her actions served a purpose, however belligerent. The idea of someone breaking into any establishment with hatchets and threatening people today...absolute insanity. Gays used to be actually locked up in insane asylyms. Is it important to know that? Yes. Does the average gay youth face this, and does it have to be brought up in every conversation? No.

As an aside, one misconception about the FA movement is that people seem to think we should stay silent and ashamed. Yet, closet FAs are reviled. Which is it? Unlike all other sexual inclinations, our preference by virtue of what it is, cannot be contained in the bedroom. To try and tell our partners to keep quiet isn't fair to them. You know who advertises most about me being an FA? My husband! Why? Because he is proud to have a woman who finds him attractive - and because it can't be a 'secret'. Know what the most effectual shut down I've seen from him is ? When people needle him about his weight, he shrugs and says that his wife loves it and him. What is he supposed to do? Try and hide the fact that I like his size, and stand silent against any comment without support or aid? Pretend that I love him in _spite _of his size? What right do I have to enjoy his body in the privacy of my own home, then leave him to stand alone when it comes to any size acceptance issue? That is why for me, they dovetail to that extent. 

Do I think it is required to have the movements coincide? Absolutely not. Do I think that random FAs will assist the cause (which seemed to be the indication of what was done previously)? Nope! But I find the sheer hatred at worst, marginalism at best, unfair. I want to participate, but the impression I got was STFU, GTFO, weirdo - looser - creep. 

Why should you expect people to get over their own bigotry about fat people, when it is tolerated and even encouraged towards FAs? Hatred is hatred it hatred - the object becomes almost irrelevant, as long as it is deemed acceptable. I'm not asking people to universally spread their arms and be stupidly accepting - only to realize that not all of us deserve the visceral loathing that seems to be raised. To see beyond our preferences the same way it is expected that people will see beyond your size. I'm trying to say; how is what is being done to FAs any different than what is being done to heavier people?

The only reason I started this thread is I have seen thread after thread derailed or the responses to unrelated issues become hatred towards FA - specifically men, but not excluding FFA. My only goal here is to raise awareness that some of us have an interest in the SA movement. Unfortunately, some now may actually stand silent because of the responses they have received. That silence may not really help. People that know us may look at us and say - 'if you like fat people and even YOU can't support the cause, what does that say?'

Last night I had my husband read over the entries because I find this type of hatred damaging. (If you are interested in this phenomenon, I suggest a book called _On Killing_). Want to know something funny? My own husband read this thread, shrugged, and told me to give up. Asked me why it mattered that a bunch of people I had never, and would never met, thought of me. When I compared it to the loathing and disdain that being a gamer used to have back in the 80's, his eyes lit up with understanding. I shouldn't have to hang my head because other people who HAPPEN to have the same sort of sexual inclinations did something wrong in the past. 

Xyantha is _an _FA. Xyantha is not _the _FA.

I am an FA who ALSO has an interest in the SA movement because others in my life happen to be fat and do not deserve hatred. If you think that I am sexually attracted to my aunt, my cousin or my sister simply because they are fat, you are out of your mind and way, way out of line. My words and my experiences should not be deligitimized because you have had the misfortune to encounter someone who was a terrible person and was also an FA. I shouldn't have to hide what I am or perpetually face accusations and hatred because I don't want my much younger little sister to wipe her own existence from the face of the earth because she can't fit into a size 6. Should I just shrug, clap her on the back and tell her to pull herself up by the bootstraps, or go find some other fat homies to hang with because only THEY can get it? Oh, and she needs to find these friends who have been around since the 70's, because only they could POSSIBLY understand what it is like to be heavy. I grew up with mostly male friends and the fact is, she could get laid whenever she wanted (as uncomfortable as that thought makes me) because most men don't care about her size. It's the girls/women who are harsh and judgemental.

Let's stop sexualizing everything and bring day to day life back into it. My little sister knows I am an FA. To her, an FA is someone who likes fat guys. Not to her taste, but if it floats my boat, that's cool. And her brother in law is a cool guy who always agrees to order in food or go see a movie, and will willingly derail any conversation to talk about history or politics, which she also loves. When she is with us she is FAR more likely to hear that a certain food is too high in fat or sodium than with her thin parents, and hatred and intolerance are simply not in our life because we unilaterally do not tolerate it. So to her, we have introduced the concept that fat can be healthy, and that she has the power to structure her own life to gain friends and support who don't constantly judge her. It's the butterfly effect.


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## superodalisque (May 18, 2015)

bigmac said:


> Perhaps you should share the link to the _men are evil_ website.


 

if you think you are one of the people i'm talking about and are lumping yourself in with them I won't argue. you must be one.


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## superodalisque (May 18, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> Really? I am perpetuating a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity? Because I disagree with you, am offering parallels, and am asking questions?
> 
> How is calling people who disagree with you uneducated even remotely acceptable? Lets try and keep it above the belt. This is meant to be a genuine discussion, not about demeaning others. If you want to start that, can you please start an appropriate thread in hyde park?
> 
> ...


 

keep trying to turn around and invalidate what people are trying to say and you'll continuing having the same situation of a lack of trust and people unwilling to entertain your seriousness.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 18, 2015)

Perpetually quoting every single person's entire post is unspecific. If you take umbridge with a specific point, please quote that part for clarity's sake so it can be discussed accordingly.

I have actually agreed with almost every point made - and simply said we are not ALL like that. So can you please also be specific in this regard?


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## superodalisque (May 18, 2015)

the point being the denial and the refusal to address the core issue of why trust is lacking and what needs to be done about it.


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## superodalisque (May 18, 2015)

well here are some direct points re: your post then:


the point being the denial and the refusal to address the core issue of why trust is lacking and what needs to be done about it.

yep, people who ignore valid claims of bad behavior help to perpetuate them. people who do it can hang around, do the same and have the benefit of the doubt always on their side , which is exactly what has happened with even the most dangerous, like the guy who was exposing people to HIV all over the community. every time a fat woman has come on this site looking for help and protection she is lamb basted slut shamed called every name in the book, including liar. 

history doesn't distance people from now. it informs people on where now came from. coming from a place of ignorance is never good. as they say, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. already the mindset that made the movement lose trust in admirers is evident throughout the thread. the lack of movement in attitude is exactly what gives people pause. it's no different than what caused the problems before. 

people don't think the FA movement should stay silent. they just think they should stop trying to overtake the fat acceptance movement with their issues. and besides all of that there is no FA movement that I know of. do you belong to one? I haven't seen one. 

every group has weirdos losers and creeps. the difference is when they are called out members of the group actually help to call them out and don't try to shut down the conversation about what is being done by insisting that they are assuming everyone is saying they are personally doing the same and lumping themselves in with the creeps. if you want to continue to pretend there is no difference between you and them then a lot of people will lump you in together. it's up to you not to assume the creep cloak if it isn't you instead of getting angry because someone is a creep gets called out for truly dangerous behavior. 

people also have to stop making the automatic assumption and inference that fat people are always lying when they are being hurt. you don't think fat people don't know what is happening. they do. a lot of people would like the rest of us to keep cautionary tales secret especially from newbies who haven't been around . absolutely no one should be given carte blanc in absolutely any situation whether they are fat or not. victims should always be treated with care. 

it's not necessary to make the movements coincide but don't be surprised when a lot of people won't allow the virtually non existent FA movement piggy back on their work even when many of their ideas aren't actually Size Acceptance ideals at all. 

any opposition to what has been said has nothing to do with actual sexual inclinations. what I like or don't like personally I can manage myself. it's not a big deal. it's the other human behaviors that would be wrong if anyone did it unless you think theft, molestation assault and knowingly spreading HIV are FA traits? the refusal to admit to and call out the people doing these things is what the problem is. it's also problematic for people who've never been around any of these people or seen them interact and try to form an opinion based on what are often half truths and out right falsehoods spread online. so if people think they have a handle of what other people are doing just because they are FAs i'm here to tell you that some people do things that MOST decent people would never do and then gaslight and appeal to the pity of other unknowing FAs for protection. unfortunately a lot of people get embarrassed by people who've hoodwinked them into believing they are just like them when they are actually just criminals. 

before you think you know it sounds like you need to move around in more circles and meet people in person. I've met people all over the country. I was traveling a lot back in the day. whenever I had business somewhere I would make it my business to check things out and see if things were as people said they were. I've made tons of very long term friends. some have been around much longer than I have . some are younger than me. over the years we have all been shocked by what a huge gap there is between what some people have said online and what is actually happening. 

people always claim what they do is so new. i'm here as a student of history to say there is nothing new under the sun. human nature doesn't change unless people make an effort. right now there is no real difference between the mindset of FAs in the 70s and 80s who totally ruined NAAFA. and not only that some are absolutely refusing to look at that pattern so that they can avoid it. it would be different if there was some introspection and people actually willing to take control of the situation instead of so much denial and avoidance. 

I never thought you were sexually attracted to your aunt cousin etc...but the admiration camp has historically generally made it difficult for you to bring your aunt cousin mother etc... into the situation as it stands. I doubt you would bring them to the places I've been, including NAAFA events. it's okay for people to act out sexually sometimes but not all of the time or inappropriately. if you attended these things, which it appears you don't, you would understand exactly what I was talking about. but since you don't you have no idea. 

I would love everybody to stop sexualizing absolutely everything too. i agree with you that it shouldn't be about sex absolutely all of the time everywhere. but the habits of the community at large generally is to sexualize every situation. and if they can't sexualize it they often can't get people to show up, which is why there isn't an FA movement. and since NAAFA has tied to cut down on a lot of things people have stopped supporting them as much as well. 

so I think it's up to FAs to start a movement themselves for once to prove there is even enough interest if there isn't a fat object around to look at or posture in front of. that would make a lot of headway. and then if they can even form a separate branch of the SA movement that isn't concerned with attraction at all that would be totally magnificent. but right now I really don't see that happening, especially among male FAs, because generally speaking the atmosphere has been so unrealistic for so long. I would be happy if it did but I think there are a lot of people, even among those who are politically conscious, who deep down like people hanging on their every word and who've enjoyed feeling like or being the only game in town for insecure fat women in particular and they just don't want to give up being pandered to. 

real SA would cut back on some of that. I've sat around a lot of FAs bemoaning how things have changed and how much they miss the days when there were 50 women to one man and they were all competing for them. TG the situation has changed somewhat in a lot of quarters but there is still a lot of desperation out there that can feed even the most intact ego.


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## wrestlingguy (May 18, 2015)

I love sex as much as the next person. It was the reason I visited this site for the first time in 1997. Obviously it's not the reason I'm here today.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people who come to this site/forum everyday are here for the sexual attraction. The amount of people hitting the Paysite Boards vs. all the other boards combined should be proof enough. Again, while I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I do think that many people have become obsessive about it. 

Years ago, I wrote a blog called "The BBW=Porn Connection", where I discussed what has happened as a result of that obsessive sexual attraction. 

I think we can all agree that obsessive sexualization at this website has done little to further any fat acceptance. Perhaps there's some confusion as to the definition of fat acceptance. I can direct you to countless video appearances where "well known" fatties and their admirers appeared on TV in the name of fat acceptance. IN FACT, it wasn't about size acceptance at all, it was about appearing on TV. The sad fact is, if you appear on TV, and the host/production team of the show has an agenda & you don't, you shouldn't appear on the show, because you come off looking like a fool. Interesting how all of those same people who made those appearances return here to post about how their words were twisted to make them look bad. Yet, people who warned them about those same appearances before they were made were essentially told to shut up, since they were doing something "positive".

I'm one of those people who, when I see something that goes against my core values, has to speak out against it. Many of my former "friends" in the community now speak out against me and call me the bad guy. I can only imagine the reason being that my blogs probably pointed out things that made them feel uncomfortable, or hit too close to home. While I never named names, I saved much of the correspondence that took place between many of the unsavory characters, the "victims" and me. And while I would never look for my 15 minutes of fame by writing a book about those experiences, I can back up every thing I've said in my blogs.

I think that's what SuperO is talking about here. We experience things and say "well that's not me", or "they don't speak for me". That's fine, I suppose not everyone in this community feels a need to speak out against social inequities. I do, however. More important, I wish others would take the time to speak out and make those who give this community a bad name more accountable for their words/actions.


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## Xyantha Reborn (May 18, 2015)

Good points, wrestlingguy. But with all due respect, that isnt what SuperO is saying. She is being inflammatory, accusatory, and is trying to represent that she IS the SA movement, not a devoted member. I would actually love to hear other members of the community comment from different perspectives, because although SuperO is obviously passionate, I doubt she represents all corners of the community.

To your point; that is what I am trying to do  speak out about a social inequity. The comments  and mostly sheer volume of those comments - I have seen about FAs here go against my core values. They are broad, hateful, and continually occurring in various threads. It seems that F/FA language is policed far more heavily than the BBW/BHM here; as mentioned before, if I said such things about BBW I would be banned. I think we should talk about how some FA are bad, and about how the FA movement needs to change  open conversation is one of the surest forms of enacting long term change. 

If you look through my posts I am not a sadistic person. I am sexual, but other than acknowledging my FA-ness I am not drooling and chasing chubby tail around the site. All my posts have been trying to say is; please do not discriminate against me/all of us. Can you at least give us a chance to personally prove our worth before tearing us down? Some of the responses I got seemed to say; No, you deserve it. If this conversation had been reversed and I said that fat people deserved to be treated the way they are because I personally know fat lazy people (who must therefore represent the entire population)  how would that be ok? If we replaced FA with black or jew would it be ok? That is the best indicator if a conversation is above board. If you can switch out terms without an alarm bell going off. Can we just stop unilaterally saying things about FAs the same way we have stopped doing it about race or creed? So that people like me who have a legitimate interest in supporting the SA movement dont feel like they are constantly being attacked? 

Im not trying to override the SA movement  Im trying to say it doesnt need to hate on FA to achieve its ends. And to that point - If you have never heard of an Fa movement beforehow the heck are they taking over the SA movement with their issues? Seems contradictory to me, and considering my post said vs not plus, there doesnt seem to be much piggybacking either. Im actually asking certain members of the SA movement to stop trying to step on the necks of all FAs to achieve their goals. People dont need to delegitimize who I am to better themselves. I believe they are better than that, and the movement has enough legitimacy to not need these methods. 

But, then again, I suppose my posts, which I have actually devoted time to writing, arent worth much, considering I have assumed the creep cloak because I stepped in on another thread and said that a husband has the right to protect his wife as he sees fit, without relation to the SA movement. I cant recall a similar thread to which SuperO may be referring. Perhaps you could be more specific? In addition, Im actually not angry  just greatly concerned. 

I dont think trust is needed here in the context it is being used. Trust, in the physchological sense, is to accept vulnerability based on the positive expected behaviours of another, and/or the basis to act on the words, actions and decisions of others. Trust is something that you have BEFORE you know a person. Trust is quickly replaced by experience. I dont trust the BBW or BHMI trust the person (who happens to be fat) until I get to know them. I dont think anyone should trust FA as in the group of random individuals, lumped under the same banner simply for something we have in common. 

As for my involvementJust because I live in Canada and dont go to US events doesnt mean that I am not an active member of SA in my own community. How do you know what I do or do not do? And more importantly, given your complete lack of insight into my sphere, how can you judge the impacts to the people I work and live with? Those are some pretty big assumptions that are wholly without foundation. 

People who ignore valid claims and behaviour DO help perpetuate them  good thing I acknowledged that bad things have happened. Using your example; there have been multiple cases in the media of people who have knowingly spread HIV. The circumstance is terrible, tragic and deserves the strongest punishment, but isnt FA exclusive. Why are we trying to make the spread of HIV into an FA specific issue? That person deserves to be drawn and quartered; but he is not all FA. If he also had a black tones skin, should we then persecute all black people because he is, by virtue of his skin colour, a representative of that entire population? What if he was a black FA? 

If one acknowledges that personal experience trumps what is actually happening as part of the larger group, the main exposure I have had to the SA movement has been hatred and belligerence, and many of my efforts have been delegitimized. As an intelligent person who will willingly shed the cloak of creep  why would I, or the average person support the SA movement? Apparently I need to devote all my vacation time to travelling to fat specific events, and there is some sort of union environment going on, where seniority in the community is all important, so I will have to wait my turn until older members roll over and then I get to be senior to the next group? The expectations for the average person should simply be size acceptance. If one wants to go over and above and participate, that is wonderful!! However, if in order to be part of the acceptance movement you expect the general populace to arise en mass, forsake their vacation and devote it to political discussions when they barely get out of bed to vote one day every few yearsI dont see it happening. 

Maybe my posts have been too long; perhaps the main point was lacking. Let me try to be as succinct and make these statements with the same vulnerability and openness as a child.

Please stop attacking all FA because there have been bad people that came before me. Im an FA, so when you attack all FA you are hurting me too. I was born like this; I cant help it, but it doesnt mean its the only part of me. I want to help but I feel like I am not wanted because I was born this way.


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## wrestlingguy (May 18, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> Please stop attacking all FA because there have been bad people that came before me. Im an FA, so when you attack all FA you are hurting me too. I was born like this; I cant help it, but it doesnt mean its the only part of me. I want to help but I feel like I am not wanted because I was born this way.



Interestingly enough, my experience was that there were lots of great people in the community here years ago that seemed to be replaced these days by a lot of not so nice people (and no, I don't think for a minute that includes you).

So, where are all of these wonderful people? Some ended up in long term relationships and are too busy to contribute these days. Some people decided that social media was a better alternative. Others were put on permanent time out or chased away, sometimes by mods, sometimes by the previous owner himself. In some cases, people were harassed by others to the point that they didn't want to deal with the BS that went on every time they posted.

Case in point. There used to be a lady who posted in Dims under the name ****************. I think for her, Dimensions was a romantic endeavor, and she ended up having a person that she talked with from the site (when it had chat) visit her. From what I recall, she had him stay at a hotel, but when he actually came to pick her up at her home, he got sexually aggressive with her & she had to call the police. She posted about her experience (not mentioning names), and her thanks for that was to get slut shamed by all of the subsequent posters in her thread. She simply wanted to warn others to be careful before inviting people into your world, and instead was told that there was something wrong with HER, and she left.

A friend who I met here (and I'm still friends with on social media) once said to me "I felt better about myself *BEFORE* I found size acceptance"
That's a direct hit on the movement, and one that they should take heed of, as many of the things they espouse end up alienating others. I've had a discussion with one of the "name" leaders of the movement about feederism, and its place in fat acceptance. Her answer is "There IS no place". Now, I'm not a feeder, but I do think the movement needs all of the allies it can have, if the intention is to succeed. I think SuperO would even agree that the movement has become exclusionary today. 

That's not to say that excluding scuzzy people is a bad thing. I would think that the types that she and I have spoken about & experienced would show their true colors at some point, and just like I banned certain characters from our NJ Bash back in the day, it would be simple to keep those people out, so you, as a person with integrity, wouldn't get lumped in with those same characters. It's a young movement, still trying to find its way, and it will be through people like you to shape its future.


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## bigmac (May 18, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> if you think you are one of the people i'm talking about and are lumping yourself in with them I won't argue. you must be one.




I went to BBW events large and small, on and off, from 1995 till 2008. I met a lot of nice people. I met a lot of not so nice people. I saw many people enjoying themselves. I saw many people making stupid choices.

Over the years I've also attended many events and gone to many establishments not associated with the BBW/FA community. I saw many people enjoying themselves. I saw many people making stupid choices.

Anytime people interact you have to expect a certain percentage of bad choices, hurt feelings, and worse. Its not a fat person thing. Its a human thing.

Anyone who thinks they can live in a world where bad things don't happen is deluding themselves. If someone is determined to make stupid choices there's not much that can be done to stop them (hopefully they can recover).


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## superodalisque (May 19, 2015)

bigmac said:


> I went to BBW events large and small, on and off, from 1995 till 2008. I met a lot of nice people. I met a lot of not so nice people. I saw many people enjoying themselves. I saw many people making stupid choices.
> 
> Over the years I've also attended many events and gone to many establishments not associated with the BBW/FA community. I saw many people enjoying themselves. I saw many people making stupid choices.
> 
> ...


 
I went to one about three weeks ago after not having gone to anything for quite a while. some friends of mine came up from Miami and were interested in going to something here. it was pretty much the same old thing but sadder. you get some really odd activities and mindsets in the south when you go to a social event because for all intents and purposes there really is no need to separate by size to be social because nobody really cares if you're fat anyway. so generally it attracts the most desperate and the lowest confidence in one spot. and there were people johnny on the spot to take advantage. 

as Phil said in the community you often see many more bad choices and bad actors on the whole. a lot of it is because of even more social inexperience and social fears. I don't see adults behaving like college kids just out of their mother's house as much when i'm out at a regular gathering. it's not any where near as much like revisiting my college years. we've personally moved beyond that and it bores us now. unless we happen to go somewhere that's really ratchet. been there. done that. got the t-shirt. 

just because other people might allow certain things to occur in front of them doesn't somehow make it okay. that's not a valid argument. fat people have work to do and average sized people have work to do. just like when average size women are raped robbed abused molested etc... and they ask people who are interested in them to step up and do the right thing so do fat people. there is no difference in that sense anyway. 

so if people are willing to just stand by because "oh well shit happens " they shouldn't be surprised when they get looked at askance. some people in the community operate like they belong to a big ol odd out of touch frat house. well they have the same rep that frats have too--of being a dangerous place for any woman not seriously on her guard. if they want fat people to trust them then they need to be doing something else or they're going to get the same reaction as any group who tolerates those occurrences and face the very same negative stereotypes. the owness is on them and not on fat people to just tolerate the actions or people who either look the other way or pressure others to look the other way. if they aren't doing certain negative things they have to step out and stand out to let people know and not keep a code of silence going. if they aren't even willing to do that then they don't deserve to be trusted.

people are waiting for an FA group with a sense of honor but we haven't seen one.


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## Tad (May 19, 2015)

Xyantha Reborn said:


> Really? I am perpetuating a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity? Because I disagree with you, am offering parallels, and am asking questions?



Let me summarize how I read most of SuperO's posts: 'unconditionally agree with SuperO, or align yourself with perverts, abusers, and child molesters.'

In case it wasn’t clear to anyone, SuperO is not here for a discussion, she is here to promote her agenda. Her preferred method is a variant on high-pressure sales: make disagreeing seem morally wrong, and cut off all attempts to analyze or think about the issue. These techniques can be effective at times (I have a couple of very nice hand-woven Morrocan carpets that I bought when I neither could afford them nor even had a place to put them, which I probably paid at least 3x the going price for, to attest that at times these techniques can work on me at times)

( Those of you in Canada may find this vaguely familiar from our governments promotion of bill C-30, the “Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act” in which they liked to strongly imply that anyone not fully supporting the bill was on the side of pedophiles, and they certainly were not interested in discussing the merits of allowing law enforcement access to more information without having warrants. The bill was ultimately withdrawn, to my mind a victim of different groups promoting agendas rather than having a real discussion of a very important set of issues)

My personal experience has led me to conclude that there is little point directly discussing points with someone who is pushing an agenda, unless of course you are bored, don’t have enough drama in your life, or (for those of you living under the Westminster style of government) you’ve always wanted the experience of being in Question Period. Rather, I’d say look to see if they raise any points you find interesting (especially if you find them uncomfortable) that are not already being discussed, and add those to the discussion—then carry on discussing with those who are actually interested in discussion and reasoned debate.

I’m not saying that SuperO is wrong, or even that I disagree with all she says--because I do actually agree with a lot what she says. But for that matter I agree with a lot of what BigMac has to say, and heck sometimes I even agree with some of what BioDieselMan has to say. However that doesn’t mean that I don’t loathe what they do to any attempt to discuss issues that touch on their agendas. Frankly whether I agree with them on a topic or not isn’t really the point--in my eyes it is whether the topic is getting discussed in a way that brings out information from diverse points of view, such that someone who is interested in the topic can make up their own mind (whether or not they ultimately agree with me is less important than that they have come to an informed opinion). People who continually try to disrupt discussion by banging the drum for their particular agenda annoy me to no end and frankly make me reflexively want to disagree with them-- and they really lose my respect. (I do recognize that for political parties, beating the drum for their agenda has generally proven more successful than actually discussing issues, but these are discussion boards, not a political campaign).

Agenda promoters whose topics are mostly political, them I’m happy to put on ignore. Since SuperO addresses topics central to the nature of these boards, regrettably I don’t feel that I can (what with being a moderator and all). But it doesn’t mean I have to address her agenda, or give her what she wants by stopping actual discussion of the topics. I’ll read her posts, try to decipher if she is bringing up issues that have been ignored, and do my best to resist the temptation to reply to her words, no matter how provocative they are. I don’t always succeed, occasionally I break down and address her words directly, but it never does anything useful because she ducks any actual discussion as well as a politician being interviewed on the six o’clock news. But as an experiment I invite others to try putting her on ignore for a while (you can still choose to read individual posts by people you have on ignore), and see how much that actually hurts or helps your ability to discuss a topic. Then come to your own conclusion.


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## bigmac (May 19, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> I went to one about three weeks ago after not having gone to anything for quite a while. some friends of mine came up from Miami and were interested in going to something here. it was pretty much the *same old thing but sadder*. ...



When humanity lets you down on such a regular basis perhaps its time to reevaluate some of your assumptions.


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## fuelingfire (May 19, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> there is no or size acceptance or fat acceptance _movement_ at dims. dims hasn't created or organized one activistic event in the nearly twelve years I've been here. it has been discussed here and some people here also happen to be involved elsewhere but that is all. years ago when people _were_ pressing for this to be more of a Size Acceptance or an Fat Acceptance site we were told out right that it was for FAs. so I think a lot of people here are confused about what the actual purpose of this place is. it was clarified for many of us a long time ago, which is partially why a lot of people left and never came back or rarely come back compared to when lots of people were on all day everyday in the forums and in chat when they thought it was. a sizeable percentage of admirers let them know in no uncertain terms that BBWs in particular were welcomed to be sexy but they weren't really interested in improving the situational stresses between the two groups or dealing with the politics.
> 
> fat sex sites often use a veneer of FA or SA as a way to draw in fat women who are trying to find themselves and don't know the difference between that and activism. just because someone likes your body doesn't mean they give a damn about your political rights. so look at the dims tagline again. it doesn't say anything at all about fat acceptance or size acceptance. it says exactly what it means.


 
I have read a lot of posts from you over the last few months. You have nearly 8000 posts. So something keeps you coming back. From what you write, you are clearly not an FA and even seem to loath FAs. If according to you this site is for FAs, why do you come here?


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## cinnamitch (May 19, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I have read a lot of posts from you over the last few months. You have nearly 8000 posts. So something keeps you coming back. From what you write, you are clearly not an FA and even seem to loath FAs. If according to you this site is for FAs, why do you come here?



If you don't like what she writes, why do you read it?


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## wrestlingguy (May 19, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I have read a lot of posts from you over the last few months.You have nearly 8000 posts. So something keeps you coming back. From what you write, you are clearly not an FA and even seem to loath FAs.If according to you this site is for FAs, why do you come here?



I won't speak for her, but I think I can address this in a roundabout way. For example, I still have friends here (though fewer than there were several years ago) that I enjoy reading their posts. It's certainly possible to no longer enjoy the site (which let's face it, can be disappointing at times), and still want to see what your friends are talking about there.

I really read & post on the Main Board these days. In the past I had an agenda, which was the promotion of fat positive events, but as stated in previous posts, that all got shot to hell for me around 2010. Yet 5 years later, I still post (more recently). I see some new(er) people who I can hopefully have positive dialogue with. Even at my age, I still think there are things I can learn, and my preferred method of learning is through discussion.

People also continue to post here because really, after social media, isn't this the only game in town?


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## superodalisque (May 19, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> I have read a lot of posts from you over the last few months.You have nearly 8000 posts. So something keeps you coming back. From what you write, you are clearly not an FA and even seem to loath FAs.If according to you this site is for FAs, why do you come here?


 

the problem is you are making this about me. why not address my challenge of encouraging a sense of honor that will endear admirers to groups that do look at them askance right now. that is the problem, too many people focusing on personalities instead of the issue. it's an old trick, wallowing in personalities in order to continue avoiding an important question. 

when are admirers going to start a very visible public political group geared toward SA?

when are they going to stop taking it for granted that when people talk about the creepy dangerous ones a person must be talking about each and every last admirer in the world and inventing absolutes where there never was one in order to continue avoiding the question and the responsibility to police their own ranks? we've seen this trick a lot over the years. we know what's up. it's simple avoidance. it won't play anymore. because bluntly speaking there are people who posture a lot and do absolutely nothing. they won't even show their face in connection with fat people. 

it's time to create more change. it's time to start talking about action and what can actually be done and actually do it to help to fix or improve certain issues instead of continually asking people not to talk about them at all or ignore them. if every admirer doesn't feel totally accepted it's up to them to start taking critiques seriously, do some introspection and act positively to reduce negative perceptions instead of blaming and being overly defensive. if not, then stop whining about why sometimes people don't see admirers as serious about SA.


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## superodalisque (May 19, 2015)

bigmac said:


> When humanity lets you down on such a regular basis perhaps its time to reevaluate some of your assumptions.


 

humanity hasn't let me down. life isn't a fat bash.


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## superodalisque (May 20, 2015)

Tad said:


> Let me summarize how I read most of SuperO's posts: 'unconditionally agree with SuperO, or align yourself with perverts, abusers, and child molesters.'
> 
> In case it wasn’t clear to anyone, SuperO is not here for a discussion, she is here to promote her agenda. Her preferred method is a variant on high-pressure sales: make disagreeing seem morally wrong, and cut off all attempts to analyze or think about the issue. These techniques can be effective at times (I have a couple of very nice hand-woven Morrocan carpets that I bought when I neither could afford them nor even had a place to put them, which I probably paid at least 3x the going price for, to attest that at times these techniques can work on me at times)
> 
> ...


 

why are you so worried about me instead of the issue? why are you avoiding ? what are you going to do to improve the situation as it stands now? how are you going to bring together the worlds of admiration and acceptance in such a way that people believe it? pretending like i'm somehow victimizing you when I point out discrepancies isn't going to help. what are you and others going to actually do in a highly visible way to make it totally clear to anyone that you don't/won't support any kind of victimization of fat people in order to put pressure on people who do/ or would?


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## superodalisque (May 20, 2015)

strange to think it's supposed to be such a bad thing to ask admirers to pressure other admirers who don't behave well to behave better.


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## agouderia (May 20, 2015)

I would've actually loved to participate in this discussion with Xyantha and others because it is an interesting one of pitching the personal against the political/social level.

As soon as I saw that 2 usual suspects had started to monopolize the thread, regurgitating their constantly recurring lines of argument, I refrained from doing so. Because it then no longer was a true discussion, but text-walling of well-known and in this case mostly beside the point opinions.

If you're not willing to actually try and understand other's opinions and lines of argument, if you do not have new insights to offer you haven't voiced on here a thousand times already - how about refraining from posting in a thread for once!


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## bigmac (May 20, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> strange to think it's supposed to be such a bad thing to ask admirers to pressure other admirers who don't behave well to behave better.




Really, we're supposed to roam the hallways of hotels peering through locked doors with our X-ray vision on the lookout for fat women being mistreated.

On the few occasions when someone's been totally inappropriate in my presence I have indeed told them not to be such a jerk. However, I doubt that had much effect.

Also, it can be very hard to intervene when the so called victims don't want you to. While third parties may be able to recognize what they consider abuse the women in question often don't. Any attempted intervention is likely to fail -- indeed be counter productive.


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## bigmac (May 20, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> strange to think it's supposed to be such a bad thing to ask admirers to pressure other admirers who don't behave well to behave better.



Also, why would you assume that an FA has the ability to affect changes in the behavior of another FA (especially behavior that takes place mostly in private). I never had that much interaction with other FAs and I don't think that's unusual. Straight FAs don't go to BBW events to meet guys.


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## fuelingfire (May 20, 2015)

agouderia said:


> I would've actually loved to participate in this discussion with Xyantha and others because it is an interesting one of pitching the personal against the political/social level.
> 
> As soon as I saw that 2 usual suspects had started to monopolize the thread, regurgitating their constantly recurring lines of argument, I refrained from doing so. Because it then no longer was a true discussion, but text-walling of well-known and in this case mostly beside the point opinions.
> 
> If you're not willing to actually try and understand other's opinions and lines of argument, if you do not have new insights to offer you haven't voiced on here a thousand times already - how about refraining from posting in a thread for once!


 
Lol, They say if you can't find the craziest person on the bus, then it's probably you. Sometimes I wonder if there is a troll in here...


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## swordchick (May 20, 2015)

superodalisque said:


> strange to think it's supposed to be such a bad thing to ask admirers to pressure other admirers who don't behave well to behave better.




You are too nice. You just can't turn shit into sugar.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Nordiques (May 21, 2015)

wrestlingguy said:


> I think that's what SuperO is talking about here. We experience things and say "well that's not me", or "they don't speak for me". That's fine, I suppose not everyone in this community feels a need to speak out against social inequities. I do, however. More important, I wish others would take the time to speak out and make those who give this community a bad name more accountable for their words/actions.



I really hope people read this. When people deny their part in the problem, they allow the problem to go on. The people best positioned to solve the problem are those who are both aware of the problem and part of the community with the problem. As it were, that turns the responsibility on people who have the same type of attraction to stand up and say, "hey, there's an issue here."

Everyone is more than welcome to say that they don't personally do this or that or that they have this great relationship or whatever it is, but if one stops there, they've done nothing to address the problem. That just dumps it on someone else to solve.

And consider me a doubter when folks are quick to say, "well, it's not me." Very few are ever going to step forward and say, "hey, it _is_ me."



superodalisque said:


> strange to think it's supposed to be such a bad thing to ask admirers to pressure other admirers who don't behave well to behave better.



Indeed. These are exactly the people who need to be taking action, but they do need to be honest with themselves before they try to take on others. There are people who aren't causing big problems, but still aren't being fully truthful, in my experience. It's not easy to say, "hey, you know, there are aspects of this that are selfish. There are things you feel that, if you acted on them, that wouldn't be good for others." But until it gets said, there's no accountability -- it's just "hey, it's them, not me" at that point.

If anyone wants to make progress on the schism, it is important to remove oneself from the picture and say, "okay, if I were on the other side, why would I be feeling this way?" One has to dignify the wants, needs, problems, etc. of the other party to ever get anywhere. When it starts from a place of, "yeah, well, your problems aren't legitimate because not everyone's like that," it just digs a bigger hole.

In this thread, I see a lot of hole-digging.


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## LillyBBBW (May 21, 2015)

Nordiques said:


> I really hope people read this. When people deny their part in the problem, they allow the problem to go on. The people best positioned to solve the problem are those who are both aware of the problem and part of the community with the problem. As it were, that turns the responsibility on people who have the same type of attraction to stand up and say, "hey, there's an issue here."
> 
> Everyone is more than welcome to say that they don't personally do this or that or that they have this great relationship or whatever it is, but if one stops there, they've done nothing to address the problem. That just dumps it on someone else to solve.
> 
> ...


 
I'm reminded of some of the commentary I've heard coming from some critics about how every time some violent, unsavory thing happens where the participants are black the media gathers up black clergymen and public figures to denounce this act but whites aren't required to do the same when some riot or biker brawl breaks out where people are injured or even killed. The issue being that when someone does something awful they enjoy the privilege of being regarded as individuals and people of similar dispositions aren't summarily lumped in and held to some form of account. Whether you agree with this analogy or not is fine but the argument does remind me of what's going on here. I've lately been examining my own behavior with the kneejerk to call someone crazy or mental when they do something awful. You can count me in with all the other harpies in here with an agenda. My thumping post has always been that people are responsible for their own behavior. All cops aren't bad, all men aren't pigs, all guitar players aren't stupid.


At the same time we should try to contain ourselves when the time does come to talk openly about or denounce this kind of behavior. Oftentimes topics get derailed when some sensitive wire has to scream out, "Women are guilty of this too," every time a bad man's behavior is being discussed. Talking about stuff doesn't necessarily signal an all-out attack on your species. I just draw the line at yanking people out of their lives to deliver PSA's when they actually had nothing to do with what occurred. Though if you are inclined to want to stop on your own thats perfectly ok.


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## fuelingfire (May 21, 2015)

*Nordiques, *What your saying sounds logical… but where do I find this bad behaving FAs in real life. I know about a half dozen FAs in real life.They are all in LTRs or married. Seem like normal people. And behave better than what? I don’t think they have feeder dungeons or anything like that. Are there any FAs reading this forum who actually know FAs behaving badly? If there is no one to asking, you are giving a great solution that will never be achieved.

I am starting to feel that a lot of the bad experience with FAs are over represented, just like in the media.A lot of women on Dims say they have never met a FA. A FA who only cares about sex, isn’t any different from someone from the general population who just wants sex. They are just using someone for their body.

It should probably be assumed that the only people who are reading this forum are either interested in size (fat) acceptance or fat admirer acceptance.The “creep” FAs who seem to get the attention, are probably not reading this forum, and not hearing your advice.

I wanted to quote your whole post but I found a specific part confusing,



Nordiques said:


> "hey, you know, there are aspects of this that are selfish. There are things you feel that, if you acted on them, that wouldn't be good for others."


 

What behavior are you referring to, and is it exclusive to the FA community?

The is a huge amount of hole digging here, and heads sticking in the sand.


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## wrestlingguy (May 21, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> *Nordiques, *What your saying sounds logical but where do I find this bad behaving FAs in real life. I know about a half dozen FAs in real life.They are all in LTRs or married. Seem like normal people. And behave better than what? I dont think they have feeder dungeons or anything like that. Are there any FAs reading this forum who actually know FAs behaving badly? If there is no one to asking, you are giving a great solution that will never be achieved.
> 
> I am starting to feel that a lot of the bad experience with FAs are over represented, just like in the media.A lot of women on Dims say they have never met a FA. A FA who only cares about sex, isnt any different from someone from the general population who just wants sex. They are just using someone for their body.
> 
> ...



1. You know 6-7 FAs in real life. I know several hundred, mostly those who attended the NJ BBW Bash during the time my partner and I ran it. I do think I'm qualified to say that I know lots of bad guys, and what has been said here is FAR from over represented.

2. Let me ask you this, if you were a woman who'd been deceived by a guy, for money, sex, or had been a victim of violence, would you want to tell anyone who'd listen about it? It's not something that's easily shared, which is a major reason why it happens so often. There's no accountability.

3. You are absolutely correct when you say that the people who need to hear the message most aren't here in this forum. One of the BBW events years ago scheduled a "discussion" of FA issues, one of which was how to behave around a fat girl. None of the guys who needed this showed up. In fact the room was quite empty.

4. You're also correct when you say this happens outside the fat community. Here's where I see a difference. The women outside the fat community don't get maligned by the rest of the world on a daily basis for their appearance like fat women do. Some are quite strong, and hold up well against fat bias, but many aren't as tough, and as a result suffer from body image & self esteem issues thanks to these dudes who take advantage. I'm sure there are women who claim "victim" (I experienced some of this as well during my time running events), but that small percentage was outweighed by the many women who came to me to discuss these issues over the years.

This isn't a knock on anyone who's never attended an event. In fact, it's probably the opposite, because you didn't have to witness the garbage that I saw over the years. It's the reason I stopped, as I just couldn't support something that went against my core values. THAT my friends, doesn't happen in the real world. For what it's worth, the ideal situation would be for us to simply assimilate in the real world, and not be forced to have private events just for fat people. That's the essence of fat acceptance, and what I'll work for in hopes that it will happen in my lifetime.


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## fuelingfire (May 22, 2015)

1. I am from a small city 6 hours from Chicago. So I have never been to a bash, so I could be wrong about what I am about to say. You know hundreds of FAs from the NJ BBW Bash and know lots of bad guys from it of course you do. For an analogy for the non-FA population, imagine an event that is Victoria Secret Bash, or Supermodel Bash. But these models for the most part dont have high self esteem about their looks or status for being models. Then invite anyone who wants to come. This will invite predators, and some nice people. The predators who want something badly will probably be very successful at getting what they want. They will do whatever they have to, to get what they want. It is a wolf in the hen house situation.
2. This is an issue for all women, not just BBWs.
3. Yes
4. I have to strongly disagree here. Most women have issues with how they look, fat or not. 


wrestlingguy said:


> 4. You're also correct when you say this happens outside the fat community. Here's where I see a difference. The women outside the fat community don't get maligned by the rest of the world on a daily basis for their appearance like fat women do.




I am just following the arguments that people are posting. Unfortunately as the posts keeping going they seem to stray away from Xyanthas original post. I still argue that its wasted energy to not see Size Acceptance and Fat Admiration Acceptance as allies. Yes FAs should assimilate into society, but that is not what the thread was originally about. I didnt mean to jump on you specifically Wrestlingguy, for the last 2 pages of this thread, the posts have been leaning away from the original post. I think this is a very interesting topic (the original post), that was quickly side tracked.


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## Tracyarts (May 22, 2015)

wrestlingguy said:


> 4. You're also correct when you say this happens outside the fat community. Here's where I see a difference. The women outside the fat community don't get maligned by the rest of the world on a daily basis for their appearance like fat women do. Some are quite strong, and hold up well against fat bias, but many aren't as tough, and as a result suffer from body image & self esteem issues thanks to these dudes who take advantage.



I see the difference too. 

When I was going to fat community events, I met a lot of women for whom the fat community was their primary social outlet, and their ONLY outlet for sex and romance. Some of them had too many bad experiences outside the community, some of them never had a social life or romantic life at all because of ongoing self esteem and confidence issues. 

So a lot of them came into the community in a more vulnerable state than other women. 

They feel that the world in general shuns and scorns them, and the fat community is either their last hope or a beacon of refuge. And instead of finding a safe haven to learn, grow, and experience they end up having to navigate around players, drama, users, abusers, and mind games. Those people aren't the majority by any means, but the women they prey on are often unable to recognize the red flags.


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## bigmac (May 22, 2015)

Tracyarts said:


> I see the difference too.
> 
> When I was going to fat community events, I met a lot of women for whom the fat community was their primary social outlet, and *their ONLY outlet for sex and romance*. Some of them had too many bad experiences outside the community, some of them never had a social life or romantic life at all because of ongoing self esteem and confidence issues.
> 
> ...



When I first started going to BBW events in the mid 90s I saw quite a bit of this. Good news is that I also saw many people trying to be supportive. Also, this doesn't seem to be nearly as big a problem for younger BBWs who don't seem to be as socially isolated as some of the older BBWs were.


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## fuelingfire (May 23, 2015)

So if most of the argument is that male FAs are taking advantage of BBWs. What does that say for FFAs? Should they also be kept out of/away from the SA movement? The original post was pretty gender neutral for fat admiration.


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## wrestlingguy (May 23, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> So if most of the argument is that male FAs are taking advantage of BBWs. What does that say for FFAs?Should they also be kept out of/away from the SA movement?The original post was pretty gender neutral for fat admiration.



I don't recall reading that ALL FAs are taking advantage of BBWs, so it would be great if someone could point me to that comment, because I may not have seen it. 

I started here as a FA, and my attraction to fat women continues to this day. I can tell you that as someone who's blogged about fat acceptance, and who has supported many fat acceptance endeavors financially, my opinions/writings are often dismissed because I've been open about my attraction. The only reason I can think of is because FAs generally get a bad rap. I also know that I'm not the only man who has had this happen.

It's probably a gender neutral issue, but I don't know that for sure, and wonder if more FFAs would be willing to discuss it as openly as the OP did. I'm sorry that this thread got derailed (by me as well as others) because the perspective of FFAs is often glossed over as if it was incidental, especially on a website that caters primarily to men's attractions to fat women.


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## fuelingfire (May 23, 2015)

wrestlingguy said:


> I don't recall reading that ALL FAs are taking advantage of BBWs, so it would be great if someone could point me to that comment, because I may not have seen it.


 
Sorry, the general tone of this thread had been that some male FAs take advantage of BBWs. Which is why they are excluded from the SA movement rather than be seen as a possible ally.  This is the conclusion I draw from what has been posted so far.


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## bigmac (May 23, 2015)

fuelingfire said:


> Sorry, the general tone of this thread had been that some male FAs take advantage of BBWs. Which is why they are excluded from the SA movement rather than be seen as a possible ally.  This is the conclusion I draw from what has been posted so far.



Yes it is. What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that BBW events are pretty much social in nature. Very few fat people are actually fat activists. Without FAs there really wouldn't be a BBW scene.


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## Kaleetan (May 23, 2015)

I think they are related, but are not the same. I don't understand the tension however.


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## wrestlingguy (May 23, 2015)

Kaleetan said:


> I think they are related, but are not the same. I don't understand the tension however.



I think the tension is one sided. I feel like there's a large portion of fat activists that look down on FAs regardless of gender because they feel like they're here for the sex, and nothing else. That generalization in and of itself is no different than those outside of fat acceptance who theorize that the only thing fat people do all day is sit around and eat.

That's the main reason that, while I support fat activist efforts, I no longer blog, and I've limited my financial contributions to those activities and people who don't discount my comments & thoughts because I came to the movement through websites like Dimensions.

The fat acceptance movement is one that could use all of the allies and advocates that it can get. Unfortunately, it seems that this movement is as prejudicial and exclusionary as the people they purport do wrong to fat people.


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