# Found something disturbing



## Gendo Ikari

Was going through the library and found a truly disturbing story called "Baby Fat". http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/Weight_Room/stories/baby_fat.html
Theres supposed to be a rule against this stuff, right? Why is this thing here? It's pedophilia bullshit that we do not need to be associated with on Dimensions.


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## Observer

Well, I kinda wished you'd sent me a PM about this rather than calling public attention to it, but you're right. Under current rules this story would certainly have been declined.

The problem, of course, is that its one of those old stories that got included back before there were any rules. Since its not located in the VB forum system we as mods can't just delete it. We need to ask the only two people on the planet with access to that list to remove such tales.

I rather expect you will shortly see it quietly disappear.


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## Phrozen

Coincidentally, as it were, I was just about to send you a PM regarding a number of tales in the old archives of the Weight Room I figured did not really have a place at all here under the rules. 

And if I may be so bold as to ask, who ARE the only two people? Conrad, obviously, but who's the 2nd?


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## Observer

WGSD - the Weight Gain Story Drone, who was my predecessor both here and in the WG room. He is still available for special requests. 

In fairness, he inherited a collection that was a melange of materials from everywhere. He did an admirable job of bringing some sort of order out of chaos. But he never had time to read every one and toss all the garbage.

What happened instead was that his time became limited and we had nearly 18 months with no new stories. Then circumstances led to the starting of the Forums and I began helping as one of the original two mods. After nine months we decided upon what has become the current system.

We have transferred over 200 stories from the WG board to the Forums during the past two years, editing as we go. But I'm open to volunteers willing to help accelerate the process.


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## Phrozen

ahh... and here I thought WGSD was in fact yourself. How wrong I have been. Yes, I still remember the days when the Forum archives were just beginning. Hell, I remember the days when the old stories page was still updated semi-frequently.


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## Observer

Nope, I was just a (hopefully) size positive story writer who started out in 2005 with Ann Marie when we had just four forums of which the Library was one. WGSD was the Library curator. But in Spring of 2006 there was a big flap over an animal abuse story, the role of minors and protagonist abuse. It all led to a rethinking of our entire approach.


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## Observer

And, for the record, the story which instigated this thread has now been removed.


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## Phrozen

ahh.. Good job. 

Whatever happened to WGSD anyway?


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## Observer

He is still around, occasionally even posting under his normal screen name. 

However, due to changes in work location and other matters he is not presently able to be as active publicly as he once was.


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## Phrozen

I know that this is going off topic, but were you around under any other name before you became Observer? You've been around for what, a year now? Two maybe?


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## Observer

A lot longer than two years - there are numerous Observer stories in the WR collection dating back to as long ago as 1998. Many of them were initially posted to the old Pound Perfect Paradise site on AOL, as were those of Swordfish and a few others.

That site hasn't been maintained since around 2001, when the chat room and newsletter with which it was linked passed from the scene. It was then that I contributed everything there that hadn't already been shared to Dimensions and began posting my newer work to Dimensions.

Up until 2005 the Dimensions Boards had never had moderators, but by that time I was a known quantity to Conrad. A flame war led to a partial shutdown of one of the old boards and a testing of these forums using Virtual Bulletin software. Because he knew my background and long-term interest in size acceptance I was asked to become one of the original mods and accepted. 

By Spring of 2006, after having helped get some additional forums started some issues on story content led to design of what is now the Library. Upon approval it became my primary focus, which may explain why you may think of me as only having been around for two years.


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## Wilson Barbers

_I _was the Weight Room Story Drone. I don't particularly recall "Baby Fat," though I do remember getting submissions during my tenure that skirted the edge at times. Whenever Conrad or I received a complaint, we tried to quickly remove it. It didn't happen that often, but I do specifically remember this being done to an SJ Feeder "Hansel and Gretel" story. 



Phrozen said:


> ahh.. Good job.
> 
> Whatever happened to WGSD anyway?


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## Phrozen

Ah yes, Observer already PM'd me that you are WGSD. Funny thing too is that I remember now having known that quite a while back now, but had forgotten it until now.

And yes, the Hansel and Gretel one.. That was another that I remembered.


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## AJTano

What was so bad about "Baby Fat"?


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## WildFox500

The protagonist was a little kid. Most members view these stories for at least semi-sexual purposes. I think you can connect the dots to figure out why it was such an offense from here.


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## Aleph0

WildFox500 said:


> The protagonist was a little kid. Most members view these stories for at least semi-sexual purposes.



Well, as for this "Baby Fat" story, I double-checked and indeed, it does have a disturbing paragraph describing a minor touching herself. While I doubt if it could be called pedophilic, it likely isn't right and deserves to be deleted.

However, while we are at it, I am always puzzled by this "members view for sexual purposes" approach that you mentioned.
There have been similar issues with stories which, unlike this one, had nothing sexual involving children, and the only connection seemed to be that they shared a library with adult stories.

Do we have to censor content based on a possibility that some person may read it in a sexually aroused state of mind, assuming that it will make the content itself inappropriate?
Or if I may be blunt (may I?), what, if someone sits down to read a story with his pants unzipped, then finds out that the story is unsuitable, and feels embarrassed, is it the story's fault?


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## Risible

Aleph0 said:


> Well, as for this "Baby Fat" story, I double-checked and indeed, it does have a disturbing paragraph describing a minor touching herself. While I doubt if it could be called pedophilic, it likely isn't right and deserves to be deleted.
> 
> However, while we are at it, I am always puzzled by this "members view for sexual purposes" approach that you mentioned.
> There have been similar issues with stories which, unlike this one, had nothing sexual involving children, and the only connection seemed to be that they shared a library with adult stories.



Actually, Dimensions is an adult website. You must be 18 (the age of legal majority here in the U.S.) to join. Therefore, it is a library for adults with adult stories; there is no point in having stories for children that are about children here.

The sexual aspect does not need to be overt; a story does not need to contain erotica here to stimulate. At its essence, Dimensions is a website that holds a particular physical quality to be erotic and sexually attractive: fat. That is implicit. So when a story features a child (defined as being under the age of 18) gaining weight or being fat to begin with, it is implicit that said child is therefore sexually attractive.




Aleph0 said:


> Do we have to censor content based on a possibility that some person may read it in a sexually aroused state of mind, assuming that it will make the content itself inappropriate?
> Or if I may be blunt (may I?), what, if someone sits down to read a story with his pants unzipped, then finds out that the story is unsuitable, and feels embarrassed, is it the story's fault?



I understand that your's is a rhetorical question, but I'm not sure what you mean by "censor" in your context. What we editors/moderators usually do with inappropriate material involving a child is either reject the story or change the age to 18. 

The Webmaster demands this, and we support it.


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## Observer

The story was removed because it involved a minor literally from sandbox age upwards in a weight gain fantasy - hence the title "Baby Fat." This clearly violated the posted present guidelines on excluded contributions:



> *Excluded Contributions:* those with any references of a sexually enticing nature either to underage protagonists or with underage protagonists present; those that associate or involve pre-pubescent protagonists with any kind of weight references or participatory character role; those that involve teenage minors in practices such as feeding, weight gain drugs, explicit sex and similar themes;



The idea of weight gain is highly erotic to many FAs and FFAs even without any ideas of sexual activity. Those who write, read and enjoy fiction based on this reality can well attest to it. Some of our better WG fiction writers actually began writing WG fiction as early as 14. We have made a conscious value judgement that such tastes, like fine liquor, should not be indulged in here relative to characterizations of those who are underage.


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## WildFox500

Aleph0 said:


> However, while we are at it, I am always puzzled by this "members view for sexual purposes" approach that you mentioned.
> There have been similar issues with stories which, unlike this one, had nothing sexual involving children, and the only connection seemed to be that they shared a library with adult stories.
> 
> Do we have to censor content based on a possibility that some person may read it in a sexually aroused state of mind, assuming that it will make the content itself inappropriate?
> Or if I may be blunt (may I?), what, if someone sits down to read a story with his pants unzipped, then finds out that the story is unsuitable, and feels embarrassed, is it the story's fault?



I made my comment in regard to this story. I can't speak for the reasoning behind the other stories simply because I haven't had any exposure to them.

However, I will say that I trust the judgment of the mods. It seems to me that the rules here only exist to keep things legal. I'm not insinuating that there are no higher ethical feelings at work, but I'm sure the primary reason the story was deleted was that the legality of hosting it was questionable. I don't have a problem with losing the occasional story in order to keep the fine collection of stories here around. Again, I can't say that this explanation works for the other stories you're referencing, but I'd be willing to bet it isn't too far off.


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## Vader7476

It had been on there for years. Seems completely pointless to make such a big deal about something now, and then have it removed after all this time. Especially since many of the stories on here have characters that are under 18 that gain.


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## Observer

If you were familiar with "Baby Fat" before its removal (I frankly wasn't) you know that its content was far more graphic and fantasy oriented than mere weight gain before age 18. 

The intended audience of this story obviously included those who would enjoy pedophilia and that was obvious within seconds of perusing it. The fact that it was not detected and removed far earlier because no one is actively overseeing the old archives doesn't make it acceptable.

I assure you, if Conrad had felt that this was an appropriate story after my calling it to his attention it would have been retained because he was the one who had to yank it. Instead it was gone in minutes.


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## Gendo Ikari

Vader7476 said:


> It had been on there for years. Seems completely pointless to make such a big deal about something now, and then have it removed after all this time. Especially since many of the stories on here have characters that are under 18 that gain.



Why didn't you do anything about it?


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## Vader7476

Gendo Ikari said:


> Why didn't you do anything about it?



About what? Getting it removed?


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## earthlykaiser

It's been removed, I think you guys should just let it go already...


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## AJTano

WildFox500 said:


> However, I will say that I trust the judgment of the mods. It seems to me that the rules here only exist to keep things legal. I'm not insinuating that there are no higher ethical feelings at work, but I'm sure the primary reason the story was deleted was that the legality of hosting it was questionable. I don't have a problem with losing the occasional story in order to keep the fine collection of stories here around.


I'm pretty sure that it is a decision _entirely_ based on ethics. I would be very surprised if any story were illegal to host, even if it went as far as to include rape and murder of young children.


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## Observer

It is first and foremost ethical - Conrad's ethics along with input of others including the mod team.. 

That said, it should be noted that there is a practical aspect: although Dimensions is an adult site it is not in any way pornographic or supportive of pedophilia. Accordingly it is allowed in certain search engines and protected filtering schemes which automatically reject such sites.


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## Vader7476

The story didn't have any pedophilia in it, unless you want to make the argument for one paragraph(Where nothing happens or is described) which could have easily been just removed without ruining the story or flow.


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## Observer

Pedophilia is not limited to portrayal of actual sexual contact or fantasies, although that is the most common meaning and certainly the technical medical definition. In a broader sense it includes any and all fantasies of an erotic or arousing nature relative to minors. 

This story focused on the anatomy and weight gaining activities of a four year old and thereafter in far more than just one paragraph. As such it was appealing to erotic and arousing patterns, commonly called wanking, relative to a minor protagonist. We’re just not going to be knowingly contributing to such interests.

The easiest way to avoid falling off a cliff is to stay away from the edge. 

End of debate.


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## Vader7476

If you're going to describe it as that, then you have no control over anything. Then it's up to the individual and what they do. And as such, I must burst that delusional bubble once again and reiterate: You have countless stories on this site that include the weight gain of minors.

You have and continue to knowingly contribute to those interests, and the fact that story was posted in the first place, years upon years ago and was available the entire time is testament to that. Stop acting so haugty.


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## Observer

Since the adoption of the present rules in mid-2006 I'm quite sure there have been no stories as explicit as Baby Fat added to the collection. About two dozen were purged from the Forum at that time. 

The Weight Room collection is another story. I cannot say there are no unsuitable stories in the Weight Room collection since no one has systematically gone through that archive since adoption of the current guidelines.

What I can offer is this: if you or anyone else note any tales in either collection that you feel inappropriately features minors I would request and appreciate your furnishing me with a link via PM.


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## Phrozen

Actually, I must agree with Vader. Aren't there an abundance of "high-school girl" characters in many of the stories around here? High school guys too, seeing as a lot of the time there happens to be something about a jock the girl falls in love with or some odd tale of revenge. 

Do these stories get off simply because they may not specify age or is there another reason?

(And I am in no way suggesting none of these such stories are good. In fact a number of them I have thoroughly enjoyed)


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## WildFox500

If we're speaking from an ethical standpoint, there's a huge difference between a 4 year old protagonist and a high school protagonist. Doing anything with one results in being burned at the stake while doing anything with the other often results in a high five.


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## Vader7476

The rules about minors was there far before 2006. I definitely remember it being there before the forum showed up. My main point is that if they've been on for so long, why not just give them and those authors a pass? 

Observer, do you have a list of the ones purged?



> If we're speaking from an ethical standpoint, there's a huge difference between a 4 year old protagonist and a high school protagonist. Doing anything with one results in being burned at the stake while doing anything with the other often results in a high five.



If a 30 year old has sex with a 16 or 17 year old, he's not getting a high five. Which brings me to my point of it being up to the individual. If you're 13 coming onto the site, 12 year olds would be fine. We all know there are some young ones on here. Hell, I found this site when I was around that age. Four is one extreme, but the story was written so to set up when she was older, and just not finished.


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## Observer

Nope, no such list of stories we bounced was kept, although I do remember the theme of the story that created the firestorm. 

It involved a spoiled and corpulent seven year old compulsive eater who gained so much weight that she broke the back of her birthday pony, killing it - and her indifferent reaction was simply to whine for more cake. The graphic portrayal of obvious parental irresponsibility and animal abuse created a firestorm that directly led to my becoming the curator of the collection.

At that time we didn't have the mod team or detailed standards we have now. Although there was a general prohibition against minor protagonists (its still in the weight room today) it was relatively new and had never been applied retroactively or defined in detail. It simply said "Please note: we will not be accepting stories featuring under-aged protagonists."

What everyone agreed on was that the pony story was too much. It was yanked immediately. Then the current and more nuanced rules were drafted. 

On the topic of underage protagonists it now states under "Excluded Contributions:



> "...those with any references of a sexually enticing nature either to underage protagonists or with underage protagonists present; those that associate or involve pre-pubescent protagonists with any kind of weight references or participatory character role; those that involve teenage minors in practices such as feeding, weight gain drugs, explicit sex and similar themes;



In other words. we're not going to have stuff that could get people in trouble with the law or provoke valid criticism that we are sanctioning child abuse, pedophilia, or other improper activities that involve kids and have nothing to do with the celebration of size.


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## Risible

Vader7476 said:


> The rules about minors was there far before 2006. I definitely remember it being there before the forum showed up. My main point is that if they've been on for so long, why not just give them and those authors a pass?
> 
> Observer, do you have a list of the ones purged?
> 
> 
> 
> If a 30 year old has sex with a 16 or 17 year old, he's not getting a high five. Which brings me to my point of it being up to the individual. If you're 13 coming onto the site, 12 year olds would be fine. We all know there are some young ones on here. Hell, I found this site when I was around that age. Four is one extreme, but the story was written so to set up when she was older, and just not finished.



I've been a moderator here in the Library for about a year now; at about that same time, the Story Rules and Regulations were revised to specifically narrow the involvement of underage characters.

I concur with the current rules, and, as Observer knows, I'm tough on stories with minors in them when I come across them while editing.

However, I don't have time to comb through the thousands upon thousands of stories that are already in the collection looking for violators of the underage rules. I know Observer is busier than a one-armed paper hanger here in the Library; he certainly doesn't have time. If any one of you reading this comes across a story that violates the rules (Observer has copied them in his post above), then *for the sake of decency let us know about it*.

Vader, I don't agree that the age of the characters should be relative to the age of the author. Eighteen is the age of consent. Eighteen is the minimum age to join Dimensions. Eighteen is the age we insist upon for our story protagonists, as Dimensions is an adult forum.


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## Vader7476

Risible said:


> If any one of you reading this comes across a story that violates the rules (Observer has copied them in his post above), then *for the sake of decency let us know about it*.
> 
> Vader, I don't agree that the age of the characters should be relative to the age of the author. Eighteen is the age of consent. Eighteen is the minimum age to join Dimensions. Eighteen is the age we insist upon for our story protagonists, as Dimensions is an adult forum.




Sake of decency? It's literature, not actual pedophilia. Not wanting them on his own site is one thing, but don't try and make it out like it's absolutely the worst thing ever. I read BHM stories, and I'm not homosexual. Certainly one can enjoy an underage character and not be a pedophile.

I didn't say it was relative to the age of the author, but if you for one second think that everyone that goes on this site and forum is over 18, then you're greatly mistaken. As for insisting, we all know it has nothing to do with legality, and that anything could be written for any reason. As for it being an adult forum, you guys block out certain words, specifically in story posting. There's no doubt the rules are arbitrary at best.


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## WildFox500

Anyone here who isn't 18 is breaking the TOS. Why would they be considered when deciding on appropriate site content?


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## Vader7476

WildFox500 said:


> Anyone here who isn't 18 is breaking the TOS. Why would they be considered when deciding on appropriate site content?



Not on the main site, signing up for the forums is 18. As for the forums, I believe I answered this. Them breaking the TOS doesn't do anything against the fact that they are still here. Even if you don't think they should be taken into account, the majority of what I've said is still valid.

And who, pray tell, is considered when deciding on appropriate site content? Was a vote taken? It's made by a few select people, who happen to be quite a deal older than a lot of its patrons.


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## Observer

Was a vote taken?

Well, actually it was. In case you haven't noticed on the home page, over in the far left column, this site is owned by a company called Shardco, Inc. It has stockholders, who vote to elect a Board, which incudes a designated President and CEO. He and they (not me, believe it or not) have 100% support of the shareholders. They get to vote on the rules and can pull rank on Mods like Ris and I any time they want. Since they also pay the vast majority of the upkeep of this place we have no issue with that.

Now are both they and we older than a lot of those who visit here? No doubt. It might interest you to know that this works to the younger set's benefit. Our President and CEO is actually a liberalizing force on the mods - he tells us to give discussion and fantasy plenty of leeway, more frankly than some of us (myself included) would choose to if we had total discretion. He has even been known to reopen threads personally attacking him that mods have closed because of insolence and vitriol.

"Baby Fat" is one that he personally yanked as soon as he found out about it. Our mods don't have access to that set of files, although I certainly made a reccommendation. But we don't get to "vote" on such matters any more than the readers - nor should either of us expect to. We're guests in Shardco's house, called Dimension's Online, and its shareholders pay the bills and have exclusive voting rights.


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## Vader7476

I shouldn't have to mention that what you're talking about and what I'm talking about are two completely different entities. Shareholders certainly are not in any way the users of this site. 

Like I said, I know it's more of a Monarchy. I'm just not sure why you're trying to make it out like it's not. 

Clearly he's not heavily involved with the site though, and we could let more things slip through and allow said leeway if we wanted to use it. That's what I have issue with.


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## WildFox500

So we should break the rules simply because we can?


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## Forgotten_Futures

Vader7476 said:


> Not on the main site, signing up for the forums is 18. As for the forums, I believe I answered this. Them breaking the TOS doesn't do anything against the fact that they are still here. Even if you don't think they should be taken into account, the majority of what I've said is still valid.


 
The under-18 crowd (who we admittedly do know surfs here regardless of rules) are not considered for the sheer and simple sake that they DO NOT belong here - therefore why should we cater anything to them?

Secondly, I think it makes sense to mention Federal Statutory Rape laws, which state that crossing state boundaries in order to partake of sexual activity of any kind with a person under the age of 16 is a *Federal Crime*. This is particularly heinous when the involved is under the age of 12.

Further, many states have their own specific laws on this matter. For instance, in the state of New Jersey, having sexual relations with a person under age 13 is punishable by 10-20 years in prison. Also, I - at the age of 22 - cannot legally engage in sexual activity with anyone between 13 and 16, the legal maximum age difference being 4 years. Anyone over 16 is clear, with explicit consent, and due to the edginess of such laws, one is generally wise to avoid sex with a minor entirely if one is not a minor.

The Church (and while I am not Christian any longer, I do still agree on this point) holds that having sexual relations with an individual in one's mind is tantamount to having those relations with them in reality. Thus it can be said that an individual fantasizing about a minor in any context (in this case, as a fat person and/or gainer/eater) is having sexual relations with that minor. Whether or not the minor is real is inconsequential - in their mind, that person has knowingly, willingly, and, perhaps worst, eagerly experienced sexual arousal at the hands of an underage personage.

That said... while I do not agree that non-explicit stories featuring underage protagonists are inherently bad and/or pedophilic in nature, this is not the place for them, and protecting this site is more important than creating an outlet for underage viewers - which, as I've stated, do not even belong on this site.

So what it all boils down to is a pre-emptive strike. If it has the potential to be a problem, it is a virtual problem, and therefore needs to be dealt with/prevented before it becomes a real problem.


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## Forgotten_Futures

Vader7476 said:


> I shouldn't have to mention that what you're talking about and what I'm talking about are two completely different entities. Shareholders certainly are not in any way the users of this site.
> 
> Like I said, I know it's more of a Monarchy. I'm just not sure why you're trying to make it out like it's not.
> 
> Clearly he's not heavily involved with the site though, and we could let more things slip through and allow said leeway if we wanted to use it. That's what I have issue with.


 
Hey mate, if you want underage material to read and/or wank to, I'm sure there's plenty of sites on the web which have it. I'm not going to try and find them.


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## Observer

Thank you WF and FF. You both understand the situation.

As for Conrad "not getting that involved" so the mice can play while the cat is away, that is pure fantasy. He of course doesn't read every story and every post. But any time we as mods have a question or need he's responsive . There is something that always amazes me in such exchanges: how much he reveals that he's been quietly picking up on without saying anything. He is definitely "involved" but not commonly at the posting level.


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## Vader7476

It's disheartening that I have to, yet again, say this. 

1. The story in question was on the main site, not the forums. The main point overlooked, is the retroactiveness of the action and pointlessness given many of the contexts(That it's been here so long, plenty other underage stories, etc.) Why cater toward them? Because they ARE here. Not belonging is irrelevant to the equation if they in fact take part. If this site is for fat celebration, as Observer clearly said earlier, why hold the ones that need the most encouragement to embrace this odd fetish away for so long and possibly think it's wrong or that they're unwanted? [The answer to that, this being adult, having adult website, stories, etc. is obvious. But clearly those kids shouldn't be entirely shunned in every way, and certainly aren't stupid enough to not know of everything on this site after a little while. Certainly before they're eighteen]

2. Masturbation isn't allowed by the church, don't bring the church up in any kind of issue such as this. Especially when you admitted you're no longer a member. And all of the laws are for ACTUAL pedophilia. Nothing written applies at all, nor does fantasy. So most of what you have written is null and void.

3. Are you saying those stories are bad, or not? Your wording is off. In any event, not the place for them is the entire issue. It SHOULD be the place for as much WG celebration as we can have. There is no protection issues, and you know that. 

4. Who says you'd have to find those sites? And guess what? Here's a real brain buster: If they were on this site, would you have the option to not read them? If you say yes, and you have the ability to not read whatever you choose(Such as many people on here with BHM, or tranformations, etc.) then what then is such a big deal? Especially considering, and I can't stress this enough, that there are plenty of stories on this site that include minors and those that gain weight. To exclude one, is to exclude them all. You simply can not have this both ways. Either follow the rules, or don't. Because given the rules, I'd guess at least a third of all the stories would be gone. Or should be gone I guess would be the correct wording.

5. Stop being so haughty. I understand the situation completely. For the most part, I don't even like reading underage stories. And the story in question, was quite poorly written. It's wrong to assume you understand better than I do, or have better values. 

6. I've never talked to Conrad, probably never will. But if he ever wants to talk to me, I'll be sure to discuss anything he wants with me. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if by the end, he saw merit in what I said. At the moment, that's neither here nor there, and your post is like a lot of your posts. It doesn't really disagree with what I'm saying. You pretty much confirm that for the most part, aside from large issues, he's in the dark.


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## AJTano

Observer said:


> Nope, no such list of stories we bounced was kept, although I do remember the theme of the story that created the firestorm.
> 
> It involved a spoiled and corpulent seven year old compulsive eater who gained so much weight that she broke the back of her birthday pony, killing it - and her indifferent reaction was simply to whine for more cake. The graphic portrayal of obvious parental irresponsibility and animal abuse created a firestorm that directly led to my becoming the curator of the collection.
> 
> [...]
> 
> What everyone agreed on was that the pony story was too much. It was yanked immediately.


Do you remember the title and/or author of said story? I was so sure I had at least skimmed every story in the library, yet am sure I would have remembered this one.


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## Observer

Just for the record, a number of apples and oranges are getting mixed here. I'm not going to debate this, but knowing that others than the current contributors to this thread are reading it there are some clarifications to be made:

1. "baby fat" was a fantasy built around graphic descriptions of a pre-pubescent minor starting at age four and being propelled into juvenile obesity by the action of adults - it was by definition pedophilia and child porn, not just a protagonist who happened to be 18. As far as I can tell it apparently climbed in over the transom before the WR had any screening and never got removed. I'm not immediately aware of any others quite so graphically explicit but if there are someone please PM me And they will be next on the hit list.

2. There are stories in the WR that do not meet the current age requirements. There are other stories there that don't meet requirements in other areas. Most if not all go back to an era were everyone and their brother was tossing material into the hopper on a random basis. Some of the four and five paragraph scraps IMHO don't even qualify as a legitimate story.Then Wilson Barbers organized things into the author and key order you see today, still with no content restrictions. And finally a few guidelines were issued but with no backwards review. So there presently are some inconsistencies. As time allows we are slowly migrating stories from the WR to the forum collection; as we do this changes are being made. 

3. The current rules are not ignoring the need for size friendly literature for the teen audience. If you read closely you will; see that teen protagonists are allowed but the manner of their characterization is defined. The rule are thus controlling the content of stories featuring protagonists in that age group - keeping it G/PG rather than R or X. And those stories seem to do pretty well - the series on Lynn and Tina by the Id are two good examples.

I've not seen a great deal of protest by the teens that we should be doing things more graphic and explicit - that we're being too "tame" for their adolescent tastes. By the way, the Id began writing his stories when he was still a minor - he's now barely 21. And we have several other young authors; trust me, the youth market for WR fiction isn't being shafted.


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## Observer

AJTano said:


> Do you remember the title and/or author of said story? I was so sure I had at least skimmed every story in the library, yet am sure I would have remembered this one.



According your join date the pony story was gone six months before you signed up. It was probably only up 2-3 days before drawing massive complaints from the general Dimensions community. I've only seen such a vocal community negative reaction one other time..


----------



## AJTano

Observer said:


> According your join date the pony story was gone six months before you signed up. It was probably only up 2-3 days before drawing massive complaints from the general Dimensions community. I've only seen such a vocal community negative reaction one other time..



Ah, I didn't join the forum until quite a while after I had started browsing regularly. So do you remember the author or name?


----------



## Observer

Nope. 

I do seem to recall that the author was making other inappropriate posts in other forums and ended up being banned as a troll. 

IMHO you didn't lose out on anything.


----------



## Vader7476

It was not pedophilia or child porn by definition. And aside from one paragraph which could have easily been removed, and in said paragraph nothing really happens or is described, it's clear it was a lead up to a larger story that just never got finished. And for those readers who are smart about it, there are still ways to find it and read it. 

Regardless, it's not inherently bad or disgusting to allow some of these stories, like that Pony story. Not everything can be sunshine and rainbows, and it gets boring having the same format for every story.

Yes, I know of ID. He and I are pretty good friends. I even started drawing and writing years ago when I wasn't 18. But some of his stories, that involve those teens, are definitely R. And they're excellent. I'd rather not see them go. As for the teen protest, they're not supposed to be on here. I doubt they'd be stupid enough to speak up and get kicked out.


----------



## Atilde

Dear Friends,

Perhaps you have "seen" some of my stories here. As a writer, I play with my imagination. I know what is a dream and what is reality. When as a reader I read a story in the forum, it is because I want to go out of reality.

My opinion is that we have to respect all aspects of law. It is sure, because we do not want to have Our forum closed. But I think that discussing about what is good and what is not good is another point. If one person has a problem reading one story because one aspect seems not according to the law, this story has to be removed. If this story in not according to his or her taste it is another problem.

If we want to have liberty, we have to know what is the respect and the limits between us.

When I write a story, If there is a possible interpretation about racism or other bad things, I tell that I will remove the story if one person is not ok with that.

It is not easy to explain something with my poor vocabulary, but what I want to tell is that when you write a story, it may not be the same story in the head of the reader. It is what we have to take in consideration.

Since some years I'm happy to have found Dimension's stories and a very pleasant community with this forum. I do not love everything but I've really loved some stories and I've never found something disturbing.

But... Yes but.... If one person says : "I do not like fat peoples" or Making one person fat reduce life time ( and making her thin?...... ) etc... are we killers????? If one person says that when he, she was young, she, he has wanted to grow fat, or wanted to have his wife and or her husband fattened... Can we say we are pedophiles or killers?????

No, it is sure, we have not the right to do everything, But we have the power to dream.

The problem is that some persons have not the same level of relativity of the events than some of us, and do not know the limit between what is a dream and a real things. 

We have seen the problem with some computer games and others.

We have to take care not putting wrong dreams in their head. We may have a responsibility at this level.

Whooo you have read all these lines????

Please apologies for my lack of vocabulary, but every day I know that I have to say "Many Thanks" to This site.

Take care

Atilde


----------



## Observer

Thank you Atilde. For a native French speaker you are improving in English, so you need not apologize (I know I have said that before, but it is true).

You are correct of course about the law - whether the law of a nation or of a household. We must obey or accept the penalties. And you are also right about tastes. What one of us likes another may not, but we need to respect the tastes of others as long as they are lawful in the place where we are.

There is also another aspect. 

There are tastes that we may both personally like but which are not lawful. These, if one is in a position such as myself, must be avoided. It is I think useful at such times important to understand why some tings are not lawful

As an example, I am working on coaching a writer on a story has not been posted. He had a flashback scene that showed a fat-hating protagonist ridiculing a random fat six year old child in a restaurant because of his size; also hurling insults at the children's grandfather for letting the fat child have as treat a huge bowl of ice cream. 

The scene was not sexual in anyway. It was verbally abusive to the child and meant to illustrate the total bigotry and evil nature of the fat-hating protagonist - and was very effective. Personally the abuse made me hate the villain even more than I already did. 

But a problem: the law here at Dimensions says that we do not involve pre-pubescent children in stories in this way. I therefore had to advise the author that we would need to delete the scene. And he did. The story when it appears will not have it.

Why do we have such a law? Because here in America, abusing, traumatizing and/or exploiting children, even to vilify an evil character in fiction, is held to be wrong in many quarters. It is part of a general social objection to child porn and abuse. The owner of the Dimensions website has agreed to respect this feeling by making a law against it.

Personally I agree with this position or I would not hold the post that I do - but that is not the point. It is his site and he has a right to make the laws. I know that you understand and accept this. I wish everyone could.


----------



## Atilde

Hello Observer,

Many Thanks for these explanations.
In fact the idea is the following : 
We have not to wait for the law to put your limits. This is the real liberty, mine is to never have children involved in my stories because IT IS DANGEROUS.
I told the reasons on my last message.

But I've wanted sometime to write a story about how it is difficult sometime for a child to be rejected because he is overweight. Because I wanted to tell that what makes us is not our aspect or the fashion standards, but who we are.

Perhaps the writer you are helping wanted to tell that at his manner, but This situation is perhaps too real and too rude to be used in a story. I've never written this story because of that.

I've never written it also because there is no need to make the apology of thin or fat. Our world is terrific, but Our world is beautiful,several colors several things, several persons, tall, small,, fat thin, all that mixed. All variety for all taste. (Thanks God.)

As we says : "If you don't like that....". One friend of mine had no boyfriend when slim 40 pounds after she had one they are married now. Her husband is slim.

One other friend of mine was overweight she has lost a lot of pounds she is married now. Her husband is very round. There is now logic. There is love.

(Don't be afraid sometime for slim with slim or overweight with overweight it works also.  )


To end now, I want to say that 
"We are not responsible of the face we have, but we are responsible of the face we make."

Sincerely

Atilde


----------



## Observer

Atilde said:


> .
> 
> But I've wanted sometime to write a story about how it is difficult sometime for a child to be rejected because he is overweight. Because I wanted to tell that what makes us is not our aspect or the fashion standards, but who we are.
> 
> Perhaps the writer you are helping wanted to tell that at his manner, but This situation is perhaps too real and too rude to be used in a story. I've never written this story because of that.



Well, the writer I am speaking of was not trying to address that issue in this particular story. He was simply showing in a series of flashbacks what a jerk the main protagonist had been, using his abuse of the chubby child and the grandfather as an example.

That does not mean the story you suggest shouldn't be written. Personally I would love to see it done - that's my taste. I would even be willing to privately help you edit it as I have done others. But, if we did so, the acceptability laws of this site means that, because a pre-pubescent child is involved, we would have to post it elsewhere. 

This is what I mean about being willing to honor the law ahead of personal taste. You and I would be willing to go ahead and post it where it would be accepted. Unfortunately not everyone has this view. They feel entitled to have the laws rewritten to suit their taste just because this is the biggest venue of its kind in cyberspace. It of course doesn't work that way.


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## Vader7476

Observer said:


> Why do we have such a law? Because here in America, abusing, traumatizing and/or exploiting children, even to vilify an evil character in fiction, is held to be wrong in many quarters. It is part of a general social objection to child porn and abuse. The owner of the Dimensions website has agreed to respect this feeling by making a law against it.
> 
> Personally I agree with this position or I would not hold the post that I do - but that is not the point. It is his site and he has a right to make the laws. I know that you understand and accept this. I wish everyone could.



That's fucking bullshit and you know it.


----------



## Blame Picasso

Thanks to Observer for keeping our library a place that has some taste and decorum. Stories such as the two mentioned above are unecessary and would reflect poorly on those of us who frequent the library. 

Kudos to Risible on the awesome stock trading baby avatar, I love those commercials. I relate because I too, think clowns are just plain creepy.

Casso


----------



## Observer

Vader7476 said:


> That's fucking bullshit and you know it.



Nope, I don't know that at all. The statements you quote supported and validated Atilde's post and was addressed to him, so I know he agrees. The unnamed author I was referencing in my example understood the logic as well, as obviously did Forgotten Futures and Blame Picasso.

The content of this sdite is classified as "adult" which mesans that those under 18 can't post and contribute. But interest in size appreciation and weight related issues doesn't begin with a calendar date. We know and are mindful that those under still visit and not in small numbers. 

In consequence of this reality, anything to do with minors on a site such as this has to be handled very carefully - there are guidelines which are community law and for good reason: to prevent problems. The Webmaster whose company pays the bills for the community gets to make the laws of this community. It is the same for any website.

One of the good things coming of all this uncensored back and forth: I have been getting PMs offering to help with the migration of stories from the WR collection, including proofreading and formatting. The offers are appreciated and as long as the pay - zero - is acceptable more are welcome.


----------



## Risible

Blame Picasso said:


> Thanks to Observer for keeping our library a place that has some taste and decorum. Stories such as the two mentioned above are unecessary and would reflect poorly on those of us who frequent the library.
> 
> Kudos to Risible on the awesome stock trading baby avatar, I love those commercials. I relate because I too, think clowns are just plain creepy.
> 
> Casso



I get more enjoyment out of just these e-trade commercials than the entire show they run within; had to look them up on youtube.

And, yeah, the clown thing. There are threads here on Dims about the whole scary clown sentiment. Turns out, a lot of people don't find clowns any too wholesome.


----------



## SocialbFly

Atilde said:


> If we want to have liberty, we have to know what is the respect and the limits between us.
> 
> 
> No, it is sure, we have not the right to do everything, But we have the power to dream.
> Atilde



and you know, you have the power to dream, some of us dont want to read it. dream it, but keep it to yourself if you there are controversial ideas like underage involvement or other socially unacceptable ideas.


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## Risible

SocialbFly said:


> and you know, you have the power to dream, some of us dont want to read it. dream it, but keep it to yourself if you there are controversial ideas like underage involvement or other socially unacceptable ideas.



Underage involvement I agree with, but "socially unacceptable" is the proverbial slippery slope. To many people (outside of Dims, of course), dating or having sex with a fat person is socially unacceptable. Within Dims, and specifically within the Library, we allow much of what is considered socially unacceptable (i.e., squashing and feeding are two popular themes here); excluded content is delineated in the Library Rules and Regs. More specifically, the values and philosophy of the Webmaster (again, it's his site, his rules, his values) are applied to questionable material.


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## SocialbFly

Risible said:


> Underage involvement I agree with, but "socially unacceptable" is the proverbial slippery slope. To many people (outside of Dims, of course), dating or having sex with a fat person is socially unacceptable. Within Dims, and specifically within the Library, we allow much of what is considered socially unacceptable (i.e., squashing and feeding are two popular themes here); excluded content is delineated in the Library Rules and Regs. More specifically, the values and philosophy of the Webmaster (again, it's his site, his rules, his values) are applied to questionable material.





and honey, that is why you are a mod and i am not, i would pull my f*cking hair out i swear...i ams o glad you do that job and you are able to do it so well, i would scream and run from the room...yet you do it with grace...or so i presume, lol..(but that is cause i loves ya!!)


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## Risible

A whole heaping helping o' grace ... :kiss2:


:bow:


----------



## Observer

And just to be clear, there are nuances to what we're talking about. 

We have nothing against minors in stories per se - its minors in inappropriate roles that we are concerned with. 

We have gone through four stages on this topic - a time of no regulations at all in the eighties and nineties, a period of a total theoretical ban on all minor protagonists which proved unworkable from circa 2000-2005, interim guidelines 2005-2006 and the current guidelines, now in effect for two years. The last carefully distinguishes as to acceptable roles and material for pre-pubescent and adolescent minors.

Will there be further clarification and change down the road? I've no idea, but if and when it happens it will be in recognition by our Webmaster of shifting paradigmsr, not because of demands that falsely imply some sort of fancied entitlement.


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## Vader7476

Observer said:


> Nope, I don't know that at all. The statements you quote supported and validated Atilde's post and was addressed to him, so I know he agrees. The unnamed author I was referencing in my example understood the logic as well, as obviously did Forgotten Futures and Blame Picasso.
> 
> The content of this sdite is classified as "adult" which mesans that those under 18 can't post and contribute. But interest in size appreciation and weight related issues doesn't begin with a calendar date. We know and are mindful that those under still visit and not in small numbers.
> 
> In consequence of this reality, anything to do with minors on a site such as this has to be handled very carefully - there are guidelines which are community law and for good reason: to prevent problems. The Webmaster whose company pays the bills for the community gets to make the laws of this community. It is the same for any website.
> 
> One of the good things coming of all this uncensored back and forth: I have been getting PMs offering to help with the migration of stories from the WR collection, including proofreading and formatting. The offers are appreciated and as long as the pay - zero - is acceptable more are welcome.




What I'm referring to specifically is:

There are no laws against anything written. Most of what I quoted from you is completely untrue. There's PLENTY of stories, films, etc. that vilify children. There's plenty that treat them as adults, there's plenty that show rape, and murder, and mistreatment, and even worse(And plenty of instances where the child does those things). The social upcry, which you seem to not understand the distinction, is when that carries to real life. That's when it's problematic. 

What else I'm talking about is your constant pot-shots. That you wish everyone could understand. That's bullshit because everyone does understand, and you're completely conceited to think differently on a level that's staggering for any human that can call themselves intelligent. No one is arguing what the rules are, who has the power over the rules, etc. Perhaps then it's you who doesn't understand? The long and short of it being: Rules can change. And when they're nonsensical, it's often for the better.


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## Risible

Vader7476 said:


> What I'm referring to specifically is:
> 
> There are no laws against anything written.



I believe you're right on that, Vader. That seems to be an important point to you. However, it doesn't change the "law" here at Dimensions.


Definition of pornography:


> Main Entryor·nog·ra·phy
> 
> Pronunciation: \-f&#275;\ Function:_noun_ Etymology:Greek _pornographos,_ adjective, writing about prostitutes, from _porn&#275;_ prostitute + _graphein_ to write; akin to Greek _pernanai_ to sell, _poros_ journey  more at fare, carveDate:1858 1 *:* the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement 2 *:* material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement 3 *:* the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the _pornography_ of violence>
>  por·no·graph·ic
> 
> \&#716;po&#775;r-n&#601;-&#712;gra-fik\ _adjective_
>  por·no·graph·i·cal·ly
> 
> \-fi-k(&#601;-)l&#275;\ _adverb_









Vader7476 said:


> What else I'm talking about is your constant pot-shots. That you wish everyone could understand. That's bullshit because everyone does understand, and you're completely conceited to think differently on a level that's staggering for any human that can call themselves intelligent. No one is arguing what the rules are, who has the power over the rules, etc. Perhaps then it's you who doesn't understand? The long and short of it being: Rules can change. And when they're nonsensical, it's often for the better.



Vader, you're completely out of line here._ How dare you take that tone with Observer._ The Dims Library would be a very different place without his selfless devotion - a disorganized, non-user-friendly jumble of material. Grow up and give Observer his due credit - he's been around a long time and has much more experience (you call it "conceit"); he's spent years and countless hours organizing the Dims Library, always with an eye towards making it a better place and increasing access to stories, resulting in more viewers; he's the biggest champion of youngsters like you here on Dims.

You should be thanking him for all his efforts instead of wallowing in callow self pity.


----------



## Observer

Wow Ris - soon they're going to be asking how much I pay you after a send-off like that!

You of course know what you're talking about - how I have fought for accommodation of our silent teen audience while at the same time trying to isolate possibly offensive content without inciting cres of "censorship.

What Vader is really fighting is what youth always has (fifty years ago I did) - the hierarchy of authority which some find inhibits thir desired behaviors..

But the hierarchy exists anyway - and always will.

There is the highest law of our creator which justified our creation as a nation: "God has endowed mankind with certain inalienable rights....."

There are Federal, state and local law - both criminal and civil

There are organizational laws - corporate by laws, family rules, website TOS​
They are all laws, with authorities empowered to enforce them. Atilde, FF, and most others know and accept that hierarchy. Some, however, think it is BS for laws of organizations to be put on the same plane as the governmental laws. And others don't like God being used as a source of law either - except when it comes to preserving the freedoms attributed to Him.

I appreciate your defense, but experience tells me it will likely will fall on deaf ears that do not want to hear your message. My next sentence similarly will likely be dismissed as the haughty rambling of an old fogey as well, but I'll say it anyway. It doesn't immediately matter what is said in disrespect of me; in time, with maturity, the lesson of proper respect will be learned by the young of today as we did in our time.

I write these words not to immediately persuade those whose minds are made up, but rather to instruct those humble enough to be looking to learn.

Thanks again for all your efforts


----------



## Vader7476

Risible said:


> Vader, you're completely out of line here._ How dare you take that tone with Observer._ The Dims Library would be a very different place without his selfless devotion - a disorganized, non-user-friendly jumble of material. Grow up and give Observer his due credit - he's been around a long time and has much more experience (you call it "conceit"); he's spent years and countless hours organizing the Dims Library, always with an eye towards making it a better place and increasing access to stories, resulting in more viewers; he's the biggest champion of youngsters like you here on Dims.
> 
> You should be thanking him for all his efforts instead of wallowing in callow self pity.




How dare I? Grow up? I never called into question his involvement, devotion, craft, or anything at all. I said he should stop acting arrogant in how he posts, which isn't really something you can argue about. What he wrote is there. Just like you, too, need to stop acting arrogant. You can disagree with me, and talk to me like a man, but not what you're doing now. 

No, it doesn't change the "law" here. But I'm beginning to wonder when any of you will actually understand the words I type. So let me spell it out, for what seems like the tenth time: I KNOW. That was not and is not the issue at all. Do you understand?




> You of course know what you're talking about - how I have fought for accommodation of our silent teen audience while at the same time trying to isolate possibly offensive content without inciting cres of "censorship.



And here is said arrogance. Because I apparently don't know what I'm talking about.  Honestly, the hubris here is amazing to me.



> What Vader is really fighting is what youth always has (fifty years ago I did) - the hierarchy of authority which some find inhibits thir desired behaviors..
> 
> But the hierarchy exists anyway - and always will.
> 
> There is the highest law of our creator which justified our creation as a nation: "God has endowed mankind with certain inalienable rights....."
> 
> There are Federal, state and local law - both criminal and civil
> 
> There are organizational laws - corporate by laws, family rules, website TOS
> They are all laws, with authorities empowered to enforce them. Atilde, FF, and most others know and accept that hierarchy. Some, however, think it is BS for laws of organizations to be put on the same plane as the governmental laws. And others don't like God being used as a source of law either - except when it comes to preserving the freedoms attributed to Him.
> 
> I appreciate your defense, but experience tells me it will likely will fall on deaf ears that do not want to hear your message. My next sentence similarly will likely be dismissed as the haughty rambling of an old fogey as well, but I'll say it anyway. It doesn't immediately matter what is said in disrespect of me; in time, with maturity, the lesson of proper respect will be learned by the young of today as we did in our time.
> 
> I write these words not to immediately persuade those whose minds are made up, but rather to instruct those humble enough to be looking to learn.
> 
> Thanks again for all your efforts



It isn't the haughty rambling of an old fogey? You call me a kid and insinuate that I don't understand. Sorry bud, let me tell you something that's actually true: Through knowledge, NOT age, is wisdom gained. You post things that are self evident in your laws(Although I'd take out the first one, as I believe there is no god) after of course saying I'm fighting this. That's what's wrong about your post and apparently what I'm saying really is falling upon deaf ears. So again, I'll reiterate that I know. You see, it's not about not knowing the rules. It's not about knowing who makes those rules. It's going about a way to change. But apparently having lived longer makes you automatically right. I'll have to let George Bush know it since he's older than me.


----------



## Observer

Well Vadar, you do not know - and Risible does - the pressure put upon us as Mods and Conrad as webmaster to allow and exclude various types of stories. 

You do not know - and Risible does, at least to some degree - how many authors I work with in various ways. Its why 95% of contributions to the library wind up getting accepted. I would rather accept than reject. 

You accuse us of hypocrisy for allowing certain tales to languish in the WG
library until they are "outed" as inappropriate.But you then criticize us for not having acted sooner.

The hour is late - I'm going to bed. But consider, maybe we are not as arrogant after all.


----------



## Vader7476

Observer said:


> Well Vadar, you do not know - and Risible does - the pressure put upon us as Mods and Conrad as webmaster to allow and exclude various types of stories.
> 
> You do not know - and Risible does, at least to some degree - how many authors I work with in various ways. Its why 95% of contributions to the library wind up getting accepted. I would rather accept than reject.
> 
> You accuse us of hypocrisy for allowing certain tales to languish in the WG
> library until they are "outed" as inappropriate.But you then criticize us for not having acted sooner.
> 
> The hour is late - I'm going to bed. But consider, maybe we are not as arrogant after all.



This is what I'm talking about Observer. Why don't I know this? I come here every day. I see how many posted stories there are. I know how much you've helped me. I know you help other authors, and I know you still find time to write your own stuff. I've been a mod at other sites, I know the work that goes into that without all the extra stuff you do. I'm not calling into question your work ethic at all. And it's simply not right for you to assume otherwise.

I don't criticize you for not acting sooner. My criticism is that for a story that's been on site for 7 years like that one, it's a slap in the face to that author to pull it suddenly. If you want your rules retroactive, then you need to pull everything ASAP, which you know hadn't happened. My criticism is that you're not following your own rules. There's plenty of stories, I must reiterate this again and again, that there are high school kids gaining and having sex. As Risible defines it, any story with a child who is fat is inappropriate for the site, and yet I know that Forgotten Futures has a candyland story where there are fat children in it, albiet briefly. My stories have young fat characters. ID's do, as does Mollycoddles, as does A LOT of the stories on this site. The issue is then how that line is defined, and I've not had a reasonable answer that is consistant with the stories that are on site. 

Thus, if we have leeway from Conrad[like you said previously], why not try and allow things as long as it's literally not pedophilia as a textbook definition? You know, as well as I do, that countless stories here have younger sisters in them, or younger brothers, or nieces or nephews, etc. Because I, and many others, can distance reality from fiction. And a lot of us found this site when we were 12 and 13. I know I did. And it helped define who I am.

Or for the very least allow members to know what's going, so if they want to save it they can, or perhaps even have votes since we're the ones this site is for.

Yes, it's late. My last post for the night.


----------



## elroycohen

I dont know if Id be considered impartial or not but the first that jumps out at me in this thread is Vaders complete lack of respect for the people that make the library possible. Some of the posts have even bordered on disrespectful in a biting the hand that feeds you way. 

I can appreciate the fact that you have been around here a while, Vader but there is no possible way you can know the things that go on behind the scenes. You yourself made note of the fact that you have never communicated with the people that make the rules around here.

Observer and Risibles explanations on the threads topic make sense to me so I have nothing to add as far as that goes. Again I was just shocked by the tone taken with moderators and thought that maybe if another person brought attention to it Vader might refrain from adding another angry, scathing post. 

ec


----------



## Risible

Risible said:


> ...What we editors/moderators usually do with *inappropriate material* involving a child is either reject the story or change the age to 18...





Risible said:


> I've been a moderator here in the Library for about a year now; at about that same time, the Story Rules and Regulations were *revised to specifically narrow the involvement of underage characters*.
> 
> ...*I concur with the current rules*, and, as Observer knows, I'm tough on stories with minors in them when I come across them while editing....





Vader7476 said:


> ... As Risible defines it, any story with a child who is fat is inappropriate for the site...



Emphasis mine in the above quotes.

Vader, you have a mistaken impression of where I stand on the rules.


----------



## Gendo Ikari

I will say this, Vader does have a point about stories like Id's or Mollycoddle's. Should we continue to accept stories set in high school?

I'd also like to say I'm sorry for making such a public fuss over this and I should have done this in private.

But it has made for a good debate though.


----------



## Vader7476

elroycohen said:


> I dont know if Id be considered impartial or not but the first that jumps out at me in this thread is Vaders complete lack of respect for the people that make the library possible. Some of the posts have even bordered on disrespectful in a biting the hand that feeds you way.
> 
> I can appreciate the fact that you have been around here a while, Vader but there is no possible way you can know the things that go on behind the scenes. You yourself made note of the fact that you have never communicated with the people that make the rules around here.
> 
> Observer and Risibles explanations on the threads topic make sense to me so I have nothing to add as far as that goes. Again I was just shocked by the tone taken with moderators and thought that maybe if another person brought attention to it Vader might refrain from adding another angry, scathing post.
> 
> ec



Respect is earned, as you well know. If they're going to be disrespectful, then I'll continue to be. The door swings both ways. 

As for behind the scenes, I have a pretty good idea since I go to and am involved in more than this site. I haven't talked to Conrad specifically, but most of how things go down is pretty self evident if you're had previous experience with sites and listen and see how things are run here even.



> Emphasis mine in the above quotes.
> 
> Vader, you have a mistaken impression of where I stand on the rules.



How so? You clearly state you're very tough on stories with minor characters. And agree with the current rules(No minors). So what is mistaken? Clearly you're not permitting stories with minors, or else you wouldn't agree. Specifically what you said was:


> The sexual aspect does not need to be overt; a story does not need to contain erotica here to stimulate. At its essence, Dimensions is a website that holds a particular physical quality to be erotic and sexually attractive: fat. That is implicit. So when a story features a child (defined as being under the age of 18) gaining weight or being fat to begin with, it is implicit that said child is therefore sexually attractive.



It's pretty apparant what you say here is that: Children that are fat, in the stories here, are viewed as moderators as being sexually attractive. 

As such, it's your job to get rid of them.


----------



## elroycohen

> Originally posted by *Vader7476*
> If they're going to be disrespectful, then I'll continue to be.



You are on the Writer’s Guild: A select group of writers that Observer formed. How much more respect are you looking for here; Maybe a virtual shrine in your honor, maybe posts directed at you should start and end with “sir, Vader sir”?

The sticky up at the top is labeled _guidelines_ and not rules for a reason. Its not an exact science. The amount and varied nature of the stories that are submitted make moderating and editing all of them a very tricky task. It seems very unfair in my humble opinion for anyone to publicly whine “What about this one…oh and this one over here, what about this one?”

It also seems to me the moderators have explained their position and the reasoning behind it numerous times. And judging by their seemingly inhuman amount of patience they will probably keep doing it until somehow it manages to sink in.

ec


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## Vader7476

Cute. But the issue is being called a child and not understanding the situation.


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## Observer

Ummm - I don't think anyone has called you a child. What we are dealing with here isn't a name calling contest, but a good old contest between those who are the establishment and those who feel disenfranchised and think they should be. I'm patient simply because at my age I remember how I felt when I was on the other side. I see both sides of the picture.

You are NOT a child. As EC points out, you are a Guild member and, as you've acknowledged, we've worked together on stories and crossed paths in numerous forums outside Dimensions. We've even exchanged private memos on your own stories (side note - you still owe me a response on the last one!). Until now we've have essentially gotten along and I suspect we still will. I haven't referenced or played those cards in this thread deliberately out of respect - it is my feeling they were non sequiturs to the immediate topic.

All that said, you do need a recognition that there are indeed some things that neither you or the Dimensions community generally knows. Nor should they be, for to circulate them would detract from what we are trying to accomplish while enabling the opposition. 

What I can say is that Conrad has put up with more grief and harassment than you can imagine for even having a site like this to begin with -and what some people say, unfairly, about it and our library of stories is disheartening.

Take for instance this slam from the encyclopedia dramatica: "DimensionsMagazine.com is a website for morbidly obese women and the sick fucks that want to penetrate them. The site is filled with pro-fat propaganda, fat fiction, and of course, a vast forum with more drama than a fat chick could muscle into her greedy mouth."

Or try entering some search keys into various search engines - to illustrate with one that you've worked on: Put alice jen and fat into Google, then do the same into MSN live search and Yahoo. Three rather dramatically different results, wouldn't you agree? Add mollycoddles to the key and the contrast gets even more interesting to the analytical mind.

This discrimination is directly traceable to the perception of Internet screeners that Dimensions is an adult site inappropriate for minors - and with the exception of Google they accordingly make it harder to even find. This despite the fact that it is not now and never has been a repository for pornography. 

Do you see now a larger picture than may have been at first apparent? And, believe me, there is a lot more than these two relatively tame examples at work. 

The good news is that the perception of Dimensions has been changing - since Google became the AOL search engine we're not blocked out there any more and the same in several other places. 

What you and the other "young turks" - whom I actually appreciate and admire because fifty years ago I was in your shoes and you're more open than I dared be - need to realize and accept is that the establishment rules are put in place with more factors in play than you are privy to. And since Conrad pays the bills he's the one who gets to call the shots.


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## Vader7476

Again, I know Conrad calls the shots. It's not about me not understanding why there are rules, the reasons behind the rules, or even the rules themselves. I get all that. I've already explained my issues and concerns several times to go unanswered. Like the last post where I responded directly to you.

Not for pornography? How can you say that when the stories here are even by your own admission used for "wanking?" Isn't that what you called it? It's not a porn site in the traditional sense, but there's plenty of porn on this site for sure.


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## Observer

> My criticism is that for a story that's been on site for 7 years like that one, it's a slap in the face to that author to pull it suddenly. If you want your rules retroactive, then you need to pull everything ASAP, which you know hadn't happened. My criticism is that you're not following your own rules.



OK, I can see part of the problem here. You're focused on a specific perceived injustice to an unnamed author from seven years ago who never completed a fantasy story that you apparently especially liked. I've been dismissive of the specific as a done deal while focusing n the larger issue of why a story that explicit involving someone so young should never have been here to begin with.

We've been talking past each other - much as labor and business negotiators sometimes do in the media -

"cost of living is up - and we haven't had a raise in three years. We need an deserve it." 

"Return on investment is only 2% - Below the inflation rate - giving raises would put us into deficit but we can't raise prices due to cut=throat foreign competition."

And so there's no resolution until a strike/lockout forces both sides to listen to what the other is actually saying.

To specifically address your two items above:

1. After sudden years to pull a story suddenly is a slap in the face. I'll concede the point - and if it had been a known author I likely would have given him a polite head's up note first for that very reason.

2, We are applying things retroactively ASAP. But like the raises for workers when there's no money to pay for it, that's not very fast. 

As you may recall new contributions piled up in the Weight Room for lack of staffing for nearly two years - some posted, some not even that far, until the VB forums were established. In other words, NOTHING was happening. 

Once we had the forums (which are a lot easier to manage than the html data base) the unposted tales were then fed in here until the backlog was used up. It took several months. Next the randomized "Recent Additions" were migrated over. 

Most recently we've been working on the most difficult to access part of the old collection - those in the "anonymous" alcove invisible to either of our search engines. I've recently trained several volunteers to help in this process sand you've seen their initial efforts this past month. We're not migrating stories that don't meet current standards - and eventually that entire room will be history.

The main WB collection will be next and will get similar treatment - but ASAP will probably be 2-3 years for two reasons: we only have so many volunteers and we have so much new stuff that migrating too much at one time would flood the market. 

Why not just go into the old collection and do what we did when we sanitized the forums - send in a crew with discretion to zap anything that looked suspicious? Because its not the same as dealing with forum files. Here I'm merely suppressing a file from public view with a mouse click - we can edit it, merge it, split it, bring it back or whatever. 

ASAP was possible with the VB files - we did it in 72 hours and probably 4-5 man hours of effort. Not so with the html collection. If it were even safe to risk letting inexperienced volunteers have access to the html data base (it isn't) its my understanding that when a file there is deleted there it is zapped and gone. 

But it gets worse. Since you've deleted the file you've now just impacted the compiled spider-bot files of all the search engines that have ever crawled over the collection. Enter enough key words to fid the story and you'll find a phantom link and a "file not found" error. 1-2 of those is no big deal. But enough of them and it might impact our position on search engines.

So, does ASAP become a little difficult? Sorry, but si, it does senor. And hopeully I've now adequately addressed your concerns.


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## Vader7476

You've finally got on the same page as me, but the concerns aren't addressed. 

1. I know that kind of stuff takes a while. I've made my own sites, and yes, if something gets deleted it's gone for good(Unless the host has those things saved. I won't get into it). What I'm saying is that since it has been on there for so long, that stuff should get a pass then. And anything NEW should have the rules applied. And for the record(I said this before) I didn't like the story. 

2. You cut off part of what I was saying with the quote, but it was that there are plenty of underaged characters on the site, and plenty of stories that are on the forums that don't meet the rules set forth. Within the past month, I believe, I know of one that has children gaining weight. And if I really paid attention I could find a lot of ones that should be axed. So then it's a question of things slipping through, or being lenient. And if it's the latter, the story in question could easily have been kept, and even slightly changed if that one paragraph was a huge deal.


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## Victim

As some may know from reading my first story, I'm targetting people outside the normal Size Acceptance community as well. One of the stories I have planned is similar to the Manga concept of nubile young high school girls (in this case there are FFA involved) who flirt with BHM classmates during the day and go out to clubs and slay demons and such by night. I'm going to just say that high school Seniors are involved, would that be enough to satisfy the No Underage Protagonists rule?


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## Observer

The wording of the existing rules is fairly specific and I believe has already been quoted and cited in this thread. Obviously protagonists designated as 18 year old seniors are not underage; those whose ages are not sprcified might be. It is nearly impossible to go further without getting into specifics of particular stories. 

Any author or potential author who wants a pre-posting review of a concept or idea or even a full story evaluation in light of these rules can send me a PM or write me at [email protected].


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