# Question to know about



## Colonial Warrior (Jun 7, 2017)

I was very interested on something I trying to know: is there a difference between the Fat Acceptance Movement and the Body Positivity Movement? Can anyone would help me? :doh:


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## TwoSwords (Jun 7, 2017)

There is some overlap, but there are differences.

Fat Acceptance, at the very least, implies that fat people should be accepted as a normal part of life. Therefore, it has a very strong social focus; on discouraging persecution of fat people. Certain members may also hold the position that fatness itself should be treated as normal and accepted as a good, or at least a morally-neutral thing.

Body Positivity takes all the focus off the social aspect, and places it squarely on the attitude of the individual, encouraging each individual to look at their own body, and the bodies of others, in a positive and affirming light.

As a person who nearly always finds fatness pleasant, I'm partial to Fat Acceptance ideals, but I recognize the issues with the social aspect of it. In practical terms, I think body positivity has greater promise.


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 8, 2017)

Good question.

Pretty much what Two Swords said, though if you talk with those in the Fat Acceptance Moveement, they will tell you that the differences are much greater than that.

The Body Positivity Movement, according to Fat Acceptance, feels that their existence dilutes the message of the fat acceptance movement, because it includes bodies of all sizes.

It's sort of like the argument between the Black Lives Matter movement, and those people who "represent" ALL Lives Matter.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 9, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> "The Body Positivity Movement, according to Fat Acceptance, feels that their existence dilutes the message of the fat acceptance movement, because it includes bodies of all sizes.
> 
> It's sort of like the argument between the Black Lives Matter movement, and those people who "represent" ALL Lives Matter.


 If you, Colonial Warrior are wondering which group Phil might be referring to when he says "their existence"... wonder no further. Seriously, don't bother. And that last sentence? I apologize:blush: on behalf of FAs everywhere for that one.


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 9, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> If you, Colonial Warrior are wondering which group Phil might be referring to when he says "their existence"... wonder no further. Seriously, don't bother. And that last sentence? I apologize:blush: on behalf of FAs everywhere for that one.



Hi Ned. We disagree again.

When you say you're apologizing to FAs, do you mean fat activists, or do you mean fat admirers? Nevermind, I'm pretty sure I know....

I thought I was pretty clear when I referred to "their existence" meaning those in the body positivity movement. Would you like me to draw a diagram for you so you can figure out who's who?

I'm pretty sure that my recollection of the history of the fat acceptance movement is pretty clear, based on those who worked towards it going back to the 80s. For those who are younger than Ned and I, however, this little article might be of some help:
http://www.radiancemagazine.com/issues/1998/winter_98/fat_underground.html

Additionally, this more recent article discusses the difference between fat activism & body positivity, and describes them (through most of the women who were quoted in the article) much like the difference that I described:
http://www.revelist.com/ideas/fat-acceptance-body-positivity/6632

Like this quote:
*



mainstream media has done an excellent job of including non-fat bodies in body positivity, but that inclusion has also negatively impacted fat acceptance.

Click to expand...

*
I think that part of the problem that men from our generation experience is that most men came to the "movement" because of their sexual attraction to fat women, not due to a true longing to make social change with regard to how fat people (not just women) are treated by society. Dimensions was a direct result of that, both in print and later online, but the focus was certainly more on the sexuality of the female fat form rather than the fact that at the time a fat office worker was making $2.83 less per hour than their thinner counterparts. Of course most guys didn't notice because they were far too busy ogling the photos.

Guys like you may want to try to rewrite the history of fat acceptance, but I'm afraid that too much of the truth about the movement has already been written by the women who worked so hard in that same movement for you to be successful.


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## agouderia (Jun 9, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> I think that part of the problem that men from our generation experience is that most men came to the "movement" because of their sexual attraction to fat women, not due to a true longing to make social change with regard to how fat people (not just women) are treated by society. Dimensions was a direct result of that, both in print and later online, but the focus was certainly more on the sexuality of the female fat form rather than the fact that at the time a fat office worker was making $2.83 less per hour than their thinner counterparts. Of course most guys didn't notice because they were far too busy ogling the photos.



As a female from the slightly younger generation I think this sums the fate of the fat acceptance movement up pretty well. 
It started out as a political movement, mainly by fat women, but over time turned more into a fat fetish niche. But it was one where also men were involved in one form or other.
The political claim of wanting to actually change society, discriminating legislation, etc. is still there, but no one is really pursuing it actively and convinvingly. Even though that it would be more necessary than ever today.

Body positivity is a social media movement with no political component or claim. And in contrast to what others have said above, it is mainly about women's weight and how it is perceived in the media and by the fashion industry. (It has the component of accepting "beauty flaws" on thin women - cellulite,etc. - but that is more of a side aspect.) 
But we're not talking about the Dims perception of fat. But of social-fat, meaning chubbiness with about up to dress size US 20. Tess Holliday at size 22 is already the "fat outlier" in this movement. In sum its about no longer calling women above size 6 FAT.

And body positivity so far is exclusively run by women - male comments etc. are often kicked out of sites.


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## TwoSwords (Jun 9, 2017)

agouderia said:


> And body positivity so far is exclusively run by women - male comments etc. are often kicked out of sites.



It's a shame to see such strong prejudice come out of a group that's apparently sick of suffering prejudice themselves.

Personally, I think the biggest problem facing fat people today (men and women alike) is insecurity/negativity about their own positive qualities. I wrestled with this problem in high school, so I know what it's like, and that's what I'd really like to see fixed. Differences in wage won't be resolved by government mandate. All that does is raise taxes and create further unfairness. The fact is, there is simply no way to *enforce* fairness universally, because we can't even really agree on what real fairness would look like. Yes, unfairness is a problem, but solving it requires resources that we don't have access to, and is much more complex than just writing a check.

By contrast, I firmly believe (and my personal experience with this issue has taught me,) that unfairness in the workplace, athletic limitations, social problems and even legitimate fat-shaming lose some-to-all of their edge if you refuse to accept shame or insecurity into your heart, and never question your value as a human being, being positive about your body and appreciating your strengths (and everyone has them.)

So, that's what I meant when I said that I appreciate fat acceptance ideals, but there are issues with pushing it in terms of its social aspect. Again, I think body positivity has greater promise, and this is why.


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 9, 2017)

agouderia said:


> As a female from the slightly younger generation I think this sums the fate of the fat acceptance movement up pretty well.
> It started out as a political movement, mainly by fat women, but over time turned more into a fat fetish niche. But it was one where also men were involved in one form or other.
> The political claim of wanting to actually change society, discriminating legislation, etc. is still there, but no one is really pursuing it actively and convinvingly. Even though that it would be more necessary than ever today.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your comments. Over the past few years, I joined some fat acceptance groups, and was told I should leave by many of the women in those groups because;
1. I'm not fat (though it was ignored when I mentioned that I used to be)
2. I'm a guy (and was told FA is a "women's issue" only)

My point which was made before leaving (after all, who wants to be part of a group that doesn't want you?) was that every successful social justice movement has had advocates & supporters not directly affected by what they were trying to change. A look back in history shows whites marching with black men & women in many cities in the US back in the 60s. The gay rights movement flourished when hetero celebrities jumped in on behalf of the movement. I wrote several blogs about this years ago, but it's fallen mostly on deaf ears (& eyes).

Thank you for "getting it". I couldn't rep you because I'd recently repped you on a previous post, so if someone else could do it for me, I'd really appreciate it!!


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 10, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> I thought I was pretty clear when I referred to "their existence" meaning those in the body positivity movement. Would you like me to draw a diagram for you so you can figure out who's who?
> 
> 
> Guys like you may want to try to rewrite the history of fat acceptance, but I'm afraid that too much of the truth about the movement has already been written by the women who worked so hard in that same movement for you to be successful.


 Ummm no Phil... your sentence structure wasn't grammatically intelligible. Your heart's in the right place, but 'shooting from the hip' when composing a polemic... doesn't achieve the goal. And it's not 100% clear what 'guy' you're referring to... I looked back up the thread and I can't figure that one out either. Again, the Black Lives Matter analogy... I get the drift but it's more inflammatory than enlightening. Mea culpa for not being a "down-to-earth 'guy'" but grammarwise us old coots need to be a role model for yoots.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 10, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> By contrast, I firmly believe (and my personal experience with this issue has taught me,) that unfairness in the workplace, athletic limitations, social problems and even legitimate fat-shaming lose some-to-all of their edge if you refuse to accept shame or insecurity into your heart, and never question your value as a human being, being positive about your body and appreciating your strengths (and everyone has them.)
> 
> .


 LOL maybe I do owe Phil an apology. "'Legitimate Fat-Shaming' ~Not just for Bastards anymore!" "you refuse to accept shame or insecurity into your heart" Mmm hmmm like one of those big PULP FICTION adrenaline needles when the Opioid Epidemic becomes an issue. Clearly Two Swords was Studying The Blade while Phil and I were wanking:blush: to content on the Paysite Boards.


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## FatAndProud (Jun 11, 2017)

I think it's super adorable when guys that like fat women squabble :wubu:


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 11, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> Ummm no Phil... your sentence structure wasn't grammatically intelligible. Your heart's in the right place, but 'shooting from the hip' when composing a polemic... doesn't achieve the goal. And it's not 100% clear what 'guy' you're referring to... I looked back up the thread and I can't figure that one out either. Again, the Black Lives Matter analogy... I get the drift but it's more inflammatory than enlightening. Mea culpa for not being a "down-to-earth 'guy'" but grammarwise us old coots need to be a role model for yoots.



*Ned, I apologize that my comments leave you no choice but to "dumb down" in order to understand them. With that said, I don't think the OP and a few others had any problems understanding my points, including the comparison between Fat Acceptance/Body Positivity to Black Lives Matter/All Lives Matter, and how the latter in each is perceived by the former as watering down the message of their movement.

For clarification, my first post was not a polemic. Honestly, I'm too far removed from you and this site to spew any venom. Let's be honest, you first post in response to mine was more a verbal attack, but I'm sure all the youngins will appreciate your grammar & syntax.
*


> LOL maybe I do owe Phil an apology. "'Legitimate Fat-Shaming' ~Not just for Bastards anymore!" "you refuse to accept shame or insecurity into your heart" Mmm hmmm like one of those big PULP FICTION adrenaline needles when the Opioid Epidemic becomes an issue. Clearly Two Swords was Studying The Blade while Phil and I were wanking:blush: to content on the Paysite Boards.


*No doubt that I had a hormonal reaction when I found Dimensions for the first time in early 1997. For many years the website, forums and chat rooms served me well. Many friendships and relationships that exist to this day started here.

Over the years, I began to think about those same people who I cared for, and how they were so poorly treated by the rest of the world because of how they looked, and began to spend more time focusing on trying to change that. Most of the monies made from the original NJ BBW Bash were put toward helping to finance fat positive projects, or simply helping others in the community who may have needed some financial support. So while the sexual component of being attracted to fat bodies got me here, being involved in fat activism kept me here until I came to the realization that Dimensions (particularly under previous ownership) didn't really care much about fat activism, which had a lot to do with my general lack of participation in the forums after 2011.

I do stop by occasionally & will post when I see a thread that is geared towards activism in some way (like this one). I hope that some of the younger guys in particular who may have found Dimensions in much the same way I did will also come to realize that being fat & dealing with the social stigmas associated with it need to change, and that it's not just about cellulite, or someone's cankles or the objectification of anyone. 


*


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 11, 2017)

fatandproud said:


> i think it's super adorable when guys that like fat women squabble :wubu:



*oh hush........

* 

View attachment rock.jpg


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## AmyJo1976 (Jun 11, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> *oh hush........*


 
Look out guy, she might "Take you for a ride down Jabroni Drive!" lol


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 11, 2017)

FatAndProud said:


> I think it's super adorable when guys that like fat women squabble :wubu:


 Phil's awesome:bow:~ i feel the need to poke:blush: the hornet's nest occasionally.:kiss2:


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## HereticFA (Jun 12, 2017)

agouderia said:


> It started out as a political movement, mainly by fat women, but over time turned more into a fat fetish niche. But it was one where also men were involved in one form or other.


That needs to be addressed before it becomes revisionist history.

The chronology is covered here:
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1913858,00.html

NAAFA came first with FA's already in committed relationships that objected to how their fat wives were being treated in society, then other groups like the Feminist _Fat Lip Readers Theater_ on the west coast came later. Even Marvin Grosswirth's _Fat Pride_ was published a couple of years after NAAFA was formed.


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## HereticFA (Jun 12, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> The Body Positivity Movement, according to Fat Acceptance, feels that their existence dilutes the message of the fat acceptance movement, because it includes bodies of all sizes.


The Body Positivity movement strictly focuses on the appearance aspects but ignores the rest of the issues like physical accommodations and health care issues the Fat Acceptance movement focused on. It gives the illusion of inclusion while ignoring the real societal barriers for fat people.

If the Fat Acceptance movement hadn't influenced the increased availability of larger size clothing for fat people over the decades, the Body Positivity movement probably wouldn't have developed. Ironically, without larger clothes similar to the fashions worn by average size people, the "lookism" based Body Positivity Movement probably couldn't have taken hold.

I do suspect we brought it on ourselves. I've wondered if average size feminists just got tired of the "real size women" phrase that was tossed around so often in the late '90s through the early 2000's when talking about BBWs.


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## TwoSwords (Jun 12, 2017)

FatAndProud said:


> I think it's super adorable when guys that like fat women squabble :wubu:



I wish I could say the same. I can't even tell what Ned was saying.


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## agouderia (Jun 12, 2017)

Just from following this debate, one can get a good idea of why the fat acceptance movement never really broke through.

If even here everybody insists on their own version of the truth - any smaller movement with so little consensus is bound to fail.


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## FatAndProud (Jun 12, 2017)

See, if these boys behaved like this in ye Olden days of DIM, they'd have gotten face sat and that would be that.


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 12, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Just from following this debate, one can get a good idea of why the fat acceptance movement never really broke through.
> 
> If even here everybody insists on their own version of the truth - any smaller movement with so little consensus is bound to fail.



Agreed. I think that any social movement that fragments will have less success within its fragments rather than collectively. It sorta happened in the 60's with both the civil rights and anti war movements, and in both cases the fragmentation centered around fragmented groups advocating violence in response to their respective issues. 

A friend of mine wrote an article a while back called "Why I'm Over The Size Acceptance Movement or Hey, SA, What Have You Done For Me Lately?"
This article touches on that topic, and how it can cause alienation to many people within the movement. Obviously it's all her perspective, but in reading it, I had to wonder how many others felt the same way.

This is probably a topic unto itself, but for me, the Fat Acceptance Movement looks disjointed and fragmented, and its "leaders" all seem to be jockeying for position to be the big leader in the movement, and I don't think competition within a social justice movement is healthy.

Thoughts?


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## HereticFA (Jun 12, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> Agreed. I think that any social movement that fragments will have less success within its fragments rather than collectively. It sorta happened in the 60's with both the civil rights and anti war movements, and in both cases the fragmentation centered around fragmented groups advocating violence in response to their respective issues.
> 
> A friend of mine wrote an article a while back called &quot;Why I'm Over The Size Acceptance Movement or Hey, SA, What Have You Done For Me Lately?&quot;
> This article touches on that topic, and how it can cause alienation to many people within the movement. Obviously it's all her perspective, but in reading it, I had to wonder how many others felt the same way.
> ...


To use your friends own words:
"*There just aren't any women who look like me* who can speak for me in this movement. There never really have been -- but now that Im in an SA 201 place I need people who look like me."
"*Instead of making room for everyone's voice, I feel like only one collective voice gets recognized as valid.* It's all made me not want to be involved anymore. _*Lack of solidarity is killing the movement.*_"

You friend's comments illustrate clearly what kills most movements. Instead of focusing on the lowest common denominators common to everyone's experiences (the 'collective voice' she bemoans), they want a perfect fit tailored to them personally. That eliminates the "one voice" any movement needs to thrive. Instead it's replaced with the unintelligible noise of thousands of different voices each clamoring for the narrow interest of that person. That actually started with the rise of the numerous SIGs within NAAFA. An organization can't be everything to everyone. Her comment about the lack of solidarity is the most amusing. One person's interest in a movement is another person's distraction and solidarity killer.
*person*
I ask her, what did she do for the Size Acceptance movement? Did it support _everyone's_ interest? If not, then using her own yardstick she wasn't building solidarity.


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## Tad (Jun 12, 2017)

This comes to mind ....

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY[/ame]


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

> "That actually started with the rise of the numerous SIGs within NAAFA. An organization can't be everything to everyone. Her comment about the lack of solidarity is the most amusing.


 DIMz began as the 'FAsig' in '84 so we would all be at a loss for words if not for 'identity politics'. DIMz:bow: circa '98 was one of the most popular spots on the Internet.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> I wish I could say the same. I can't even tell what Ned was saying.


Been here since January and haven't made any friends yet? No context, no comprehension. Not my fault, bro.


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 12, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> As a person who nearly always finds fatness pleasant, I'm partial to Fat Acceptance ideals, but I recognize the issues with the social aspect of it. In practical terms, I think body positivity has greater promise.



I used to be a FA activist I was considering to get back to the movement as an independent. No more NAAFA or ISAA for me. I also think the Body Positivity approach has a better future. Thanks, TwoSwords!!!!


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 12, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> It's sort of like the argument between the Black Lives Matter movement, and those people who "represent" ALL Lives Matter.


Excelent analogy, wrestlingguy! During my short time as an activist I didn't stand the idea of seeing fat people like us as a privileged class. Our real goal will be the inclusion of us the big and supersized people as a part of a whole with people of every size and shape. Sometimes I had this very strong concern about the politics from the left wing sticking their nose on the FA movement. Something that could destroy it at all! Thanks, wrestlinguy!!!!


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## landshark (Jun 12, 2017)

I learned after joining Dims that fat acceptance meant a lot more and a much more specific definition to a lot who adhere to it than it does to others. I simply applied a definition I conjured up through my own thinking of the matter, specifically the idea that no person should be ridiculed for his or her physical characteristics: that every person deserves a certain amount of dignity and no person should ever be deprived this dignity until they've given a reason for it. Since society still had a "fair game" mentality toward people who were overweight I felt this was a reasonable general definition. Shortly after joining Dims I learned it meant a lot more to some here and many who held a more specific and deliberate definition were outright hostile to those of us who used the term "fat acceptance" with any definition that wasn't theirs. Seems most of those who were hostile have stopped posting here. I'll not name names.


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## HereticFA (Jun 12, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> DIMz began as the 'FAsig' in '84 so we would all be at a loss for words if not for 'identity politics'. DIMz:bow: circa '98 was one of the most popular spots on the Internet.


Yes, '96 through '00 was certainly the Golden Era of FA'ism on the emerging web. 

But I look back at the organizational energy wasted defending FA's from the 'fetish' label, the conflicts between mid and supersize BBWs, and the loss of NAAFA members after formation of the Lavender SIG. Those are just some of the stepping stones on the path that led NAAFA and the Fat Acceptance movement to the irrelevant state they are today.

Fat Acceptance will remain the Humpty Dumpty of civil rights movements. It fell from it's high point in the early '90s and broke into pieces that will never be rejoined. We only have the lookism movement of Body Positivity as the largest remaining symbolic piece. Even here on the FA-originated _Dims_ I keep seeing insulting posts that refer to FAs as being fat fetishists so that facet of Fat Acceptance enlightenment failed miserably.


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## HereticFA (Jun 12, 2017)

Colonial Warrior said:


> Excelent analogy, wrestlingguy! During my short time as an activist I didn't stand the idea of seeing fat people like us as a privileged class. Our real goal will be the inclusion of us the big and supersized people as a part of a whole with people of every size and shape. Sometimes I had this very strong concern about the politics from the left wing sticking their nose on the FA movement. Something that could destroy it at all! Thanks, wrestlinguy!!!!


Just an FYI. NAAFA was started by left of center folks. When I started my involvement in the early '80's I was as well. But like Churchill admonished, I matured and my brain took precedence over my heart. By its very nature Fat Acceptance is a Progressive concept born in an era of political protests and modeled on the black civil rights movement. If you expect it to adopt Conservative principles you'll drive yourself mad, very mad as in fuming angry.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

HereticFA said:


> Just an FYI. NAAFA was started by left of center folks. When I started my involvement in the early '80's I was as well. But like Churchill admonished, I matured and my brain took precedence over my heart. By its very nature Fat Acceptance is a Progressive concept born in an era of political protests and modeled on the black civil rights movement. If you expect it to adopt Conservative principles you'll drive yourself mad, very mad as in fuming angry. ...the loss of NAAFA members after formation of the Lavender SIG...


 NAAFA killed:blush: itself several years before that. It would take a lengthy essay to explain all the issues and players of that debacle to TS and CW and there's things I really can't discuss. It's sad that BHM 'neckbeards' have been raised to have a horror of socialism and to see the isolation that results from that horror.


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## wrestlingguy (Jun 12, 2017)

HereticFA said:


> To use your friends own words:
> "*There just aren't any women who look like me* who can speak for me in this movement. There never really have been -- but now that I’m in an SA 201 place I need people who look like me."
> "*Instead of making room for everyone's voice, I feel like only one collective voice gets recognized as valid.* It's all made me not want to be involved anymore. _*Lack of solidarity is killing the movement.*_"
> 
> ...



I understand your points, and can almost agree with them IF the more contemporary version of fat acceptance had actually accomplished anything.

To me, fat activism today are young women pecking away at phones and keyboards, generating the "effyourbeautystandards" type hashtags, as if they were a private club that if you "liked" those hashtags, you could join.

For every social movement, however, there has to be a payoff for people to support it. For some, it's simply inclusion. For others, it's recognition of effort, and for a few, it's the accomplishment of the goal. I can't speak for my friend who posted the editorial, (I don't know if she's active in Dimensions anymore), but I will ask to see if she would like to elaborate further.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

"No doubt that I had a hormonal reaction when I found Dimensions for the first time in early 1997" Phil do you mean '87? Are you saying you never saw print-medium DIMz before '97? Not being to be disparaging... it was almost-exclusively mail-order and pretty subcultural/obscure pre-Internet. I was illustrating covers for the FAsig-as-it-became-DIMz-in-'85 until maybe-'90(saying this for the benefit of the young'uns, you know all this history). And the author of the 2015 'Done For Me Lately' article you referenced, Cary Webb, seems to've been a Facebook-friend of mine for awhile... determining whether she ever comes back to DIMz is complicated by the fact that everybody on this vast sprawling ancient site EXCEPT ME has posted under-a-pseudonym since the get-go. :kiss2: When Bill Fabrey and I finally pass away a lot of this history will be very hard to sort-out...


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

Guys(excuse me, MEN~ goddammit) and F&P :::apologies for insults&stuff ~this turned out to be quite enlightening for me. Feel free to look me up on Facebook so I can have some idea of whoTF I'm really talking to. Maybe I can put you fellas back in touch with the community. Things have lightened-up considerably since the Big Blog Bang of '15. Check your cutlasses at the door and you'll do fine.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

I Unfriended Phil last year on FB 'cause he kept pickin' fights w/people. 'Cause he's always Ready To Rumble:bounce:. I can be so unfair LOL:blush:


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 12, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> Good question.
> 
> Pretty much what Two Swords said, though if you talk with those in the Fat Acceptance Moveement, they will tell you that the differences are much greater than that.
> 
> ...



Fat Acceptance: Bernie. Body Positivity: Hillary. LOL


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## TwoSwords (Jun 13, 2017)

agouderia said:


> Just from following this debate, one can get a good idea of why the fat acceptance movement never really broke through.
> 
> If even here everybody insists on their own version of the truth - any smaller movement with so little consensus is bound to fail.



Everyone who wants to understand anything will seek the truth, and cling to it once they find it. By that same token, out of a desire for truth, they will also be willing to be convinced that their belief is wrong, if the evidence is adequate.

Now, I'm willing to be disproven on this, but an appeal to voluntary ignorance isn't going to do it. Just present your arguments or evidence, and I'll take them seriously.


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## TwoSwords (Jun 13, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> Been here since January and haven't made any friends yet? No context, no comprehension. Not my fault, bro.



Well, it *is* your fault, because the reason there was no context, and therefore no comprehension, is that you didn't *provide* the context necessary to understand your past reply, or really, this one. "No context, no comprehension" isn't a complete sentence, and you don't specifically *say* what isn't your fault. I was left to infer these things from inadequate context and evidence. If you want to make friends, or at least be understood, I would encourage you to communicate what you mean in a more thorough and grammatically-correct way.


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## TwoSwords (Jun 13, 2017)

Colonial Warrior said:


> I used to be a FA activist I was considering to get back to the movement as an independent. No more NAAFA or ISAA for me. I also think the Body Positivity approach has a better future. Thanks, TwoSwords!!!!



No problem.


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## FatAndProud (Jun 13, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> Fat Acceptance: Bernie. Body Positivity: Hillary. LOL



Mmmmm this explains my undying lust for The Bern.


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## HereticFA (Jun 13, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> I understand your points, and can almost agree with them IF the more contemporary version of fat acceptance had actually accomplished anything.
> 
> To me, fat activism today are young women pecking away at phones and keyboards, generating the "effyourbeautystandards" type hashtags, as if they were a private club that if you "liked" those hashtags, you could join.


So now we have a size acceptance environment that's worldwide and skin deep. And as you say, there's been no real progress or new concepts with the last decade of "fat activist" fashionista keyboard warriors. It's good that they've been placeholders for those that came before them. But there are so many legacy fat acceptance issues yet to be addressed and unlikely to be with the current generation. (The biggest being proper health care of fat people and the epidemic of hormone issues as evidenced by the "moon faces" and other symptoms of Hashimoto's and Cushings, even on WLS post-ops.)



wrestlingguy said:


> For every social movement, however, there has to be a payoff for people to support it. For some, it's simply inclusion. For others, it's recognition of effort, and for a few, it's the accomplishment of the goal. I can't speak for my friend who posted the editorial, (I don't know if she's active in Dimensions anymore), but I will ask to see if she would like to elaborate further.


Most people are only into immediate gratification. They're easily satisfied with parties, games nights, and dinners out. Satisfaction from activism involves delayed gratification, usually delayed for years. That leaves out most people.


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## HereticFA (Jun 13, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> NAAFA killed:blush: itself several years before that. It would take a lengthy essay to explain all the issues and players of that debacle to TS and CW and there's things I really can't discuss. It's sad that BHM 'neckbeards' have been raised to have a horror of socialism and to see the isolation that results from that horror.


Actually that's greybeard, I shave my neck .

I'm pretty familiar with all that transpired back then but I didn't see much worth in dredging up all that muck. All I will say is when personalities in an organization become more important than the organization's goals, the organization (or the movement) will fail. 

My transition from liberal to conservative was more due to a long term friend->girlfriend->friend who opened my eyes. She was a classic BBW hippy-chick who lived the lifestyle. She was more of a Green Party gal due to her Gaia bent. But she was socialist to the core and hated "rich bastards" and deeply felt everyone owed her something so she didn't have to work and could just tend to her plants and her 19 cats. Unfortunately I saw how damaging her attitude was to herself. She always hated Christmas and eventually died a few years ago from a heart attack at age 63. She was found during a welfare check on ... Christmas day - cosmic irony.

Once I split from the liberal acquaintances I had, I became less isolated and more fulfilled. I realized my liberal acquaintances were working against something. My newer conservative acquaintances were working for something and I found that much more positive.




Ned Sonntag said:


> Guys(excuse me, MEN~ goddammit) and F&P :::apologies for insults&stuff ~this turned out to be quite enlightening for me. Feel free to look me up on Facebook so I can have some idea of whoTF I'm really talking to. Maybe I can put you fellas back in touch with the community. Things have lightened-up considerably since the Big Blog Bang of '15. Check your cutlasses at the door and you'll do fine.


We met briefly years ago around '87 or '88 at a convention or Holiday Happening. I still have the business card you gave me. I was dating Peg ("Ambrosia") later on in the early nineties. While I have a presence on FB, I don't really post there. I post here at least 100x more often. I don't really have much time to post anywhere that much due to issues with taking care of my wife's affairs since her encounter with flesh eating bacteria. She's still in yet another hospital and yesterday was the six month anniversary since her initial hospitalization.


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## BigElectricKat (Jun 13, 2017)

FatAndProud said:


> See, if these boys behaved like this in ye Olden days of DIM, they'd have gotten face sat and that would be that.



Ummm... Apparently I found this place much too late.:doh:


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 13, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Well, it *is* your fault, because the reason there was no context, and therefore no comprehension, is that you didn't *provide* the context necessary to understand your past reply, or really, this one. "No context, no comprehension" isn't a complete sentence, and you don't specifically *say* what isn't your fault. I was left to infer these things from inadequate context and evidence. If you want to make friends, or at least be understood, I would encourage you to communicate what you mean in a more thorough and grammatically-correct way.


 There's 20 years of Forum archives and a lot of the previous print-era content available here on DIMz. It may not be here forever(that costs money), and I certainly won't be. 

:kiss2:


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 13, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> NAAFA killed:blush: itself several years before that. It would take a lengthy essay to explain all the issues and players of that debacle to TS and CW and there's things I really can't discuss. It's sad that BHM 'neckbeards' have been raised to have a horror of socialism and to see the isolation that results from that horror.



I agree with you, Ned Sonntag!!! I think NAAFA forgot it's grass roots. Here is a link to an interview made by Dr. Charlotte Cooper to a NAAFA co founder Llewellyn "Lew" Louderback and I wish to quote some words from Dr. Cooper: "He talked about how fat activist discourse has changed from one that pleaded for tolerance and acceptance to one that demands rights."

http://obesitytimebomb.blogspot.com/2009/08/this-100th-post-is-dedicated-to-lew.html


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 13, 2017)

HereticFA said:


> Just an FYI. NAAFA was started by left of center folks. When I started my involvement in the early '80's I was as well. But like Churchill admonished, I matured and my brain took precedence over my heart. By its very nature Fat Acceptance is a Progressive concept born in an era of political protests and modeled on the black civil rights movement. If you expect it to adopt Conservative principles you'll drive yourself mad, very mad as in fuming angry.



And why we the conservatives aren't worthy of having a place in this? I didn't consider myself a 100% conservative but also I didn't consider myself a 100% liberal. What will the people like me do? To be forced to embrace something we don't want?

I wasn't angry at all, Heretic FA! I was more worried than angry!


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## TwoSwords (Jun 13, 2017)

Colonial Warrior said:


> And why we the conservatives aren't worthy of having a place in this? I didn't consider myself a 100% conservative but also I didn't consider myself a 100% liberal. What will the people like me do? To be forced to embrace something we don't want?
> 
> I wasn't angry at all, Heretic FA! I was more worried than angry!



This is why I prefer to hold my own opinions close, and not attach myself too closely to any activist group. Any group, collaboration or party can go bad fast, and become something I can no longer believe in, and for me, that happens when the focus shifts to some social accomplishment, rather than teaching people to find happiness, both as individuals, and with those they love, and who love them back. I'm not in it for some great, moral victory. I have other venues for that. It's the happiness of real people that concerns me, and if that doesn't concern a specific activist group, I very quickly grow tired of it.

In some cases, happiness is just a matter of approaching people in a friendly, non-aggressive, non-controlling, non-confrontational way. In others, one actually needs to learn how to psychologically protect themselves from the emotional assaults that arise naturally from the existence of free speech, so-as to combat or prevent personal insecurity. In every case, the goal must be *happiness,* not *beating other people.*

Also, Heretic, I don't see any reason why it's somehow okay to *both* say that fat people should be treated with decency and respect, *but* it's also okay to use political coercion on them. I don't see that that's justified in the case of fat people, and I don't see that it was justified in the case of black civil rights either.


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## HereticFA (Jun 14, 2017)

Colonial Warrior said:


> And why we the conservatives aren't worthy of having a place in this? I didn't consider myself a 100% conservative but also I didn't consider myself a 100% liberal. What will the people like me do? To be forced to embrace something we don't want?
> 
> I wasn't angry at all, Heretic FA! I was more worried than angry!



There's no issue with anyone participating in Dims. I just wanted to point out the general background of many of the participants and the movement in general. Besides, any "vehicle" that only goes left or right simply runs in circles.

I see you've been here since just last year. My comments about posts making Conservatives mad was based on the singed pit on Dims known as Hyde Park (now read only). It's where three or four Dims Conservatives defended their views against about eight other Dims folks. While never as heated as the old Usenet flame wars, it obviously became hotter than many could stand.


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## HereticFA (Jun 14, 2017)

TwoSwords said:


> Also, Heretic, I don't see any reason why it's somehow okay to *both* say that fat people should be treated with decency and respect, *but* it's also okay to use political coercion on them. I don't see that that's justified in the case of fat people, and I don't see that it was justified in the case of black civil rights either.


I'm not able to find where I said or implied to coerce fat people. Please point me to the post number (in the upper, right corner of each post) so I can craft a response.


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## Ned Sonntag (Jun 14, 2017)

Colonial Warrior said:


> I agree with you, Ned Sonntag!!! I think NAAFA forgot it's grass roots. Here is a link to an interview made by Dr. Charlotte Cooper to a NAAFA co founder Llewellyn "Lew" Louderback and I wish to quote some words from Dr. Cooper: "He talked about how fat activist discourse has changed from one that pleaded for tolerance and acceptance to one that demands rights."
> 
> http://obesitytimebomb.blogspot.com/2009/08/this-100th-post-is-dedicated-to-lew.html


 I knew these people. I stand with women when it comes to speaking truth to power. I'm seeing you, Phil and TS feeling 'left out'. That's what happens. As I say, I can't go into what caused NAAFA to selfdestruct in the '90s~ so be careful about 'agreeing' with knowledge that I'm withholding. Demanding beats begging, especially now that fat folks are in the demographic majority. As far as your personal goals, would you prefer to beg, or demand?


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## TwoSwords (Jun 14, 2017)

HereticFA said:


> I'm not able to find where I said or implied to coerce fat people. Please point me to the post number (in the upper, right corner of each post) so I can craft a response.



My mistake. It sounded like you were saying that conservatives were unwelcome, which is rather like saying "we'll accept fat people, so long as they're not one of those bloody conservatives!" If that's not what you meant, then I apologize for jumping the gun.



HereticFA said:


> There's no issue with anyone participating in Dims.



Then I apologize for jumping the gun.



HereticFA said:


> I just wanted to point out the general background of many of the participants and the movement in general. Besides, any "vehicle" that only goes left or right simply runs in circles.



"Decline not to the right hand, nor to the left: turn away thy foot from evil."

Okay, but that doesn't change what I have to do.



HereticFA said:


> My comments about posts making Conservatives mad was based on the singed pit on Dims known as Hyde Park (now read only).



I'll have to read it. I'd be interested in studying how the discussion went, because while it takes a lot to make me truly mad, my opinions are not much less likely to be upsetting to others.



HereticFA said:


> While never as heated as the old Usenet flame wars, it obviously became hotter than many could stand.



This is why I want to read it. I'm interested in finding out who those "many" were. 

P.S.: I've taken a few minutes to skim some of Hyde Park, and although I did spot one person who seemed to be trying to make people mad on purpose, most of the other conservatives seemed to be staying calm and presenting reasoned arguments in defense of their positions. It was just that everyone was getting angry at them for holding those positions *at all.* Then the moderators decided the board was "broken," and that was that. Whether they arrived at this decision because of the anger, or because of the expression of legitimate conservative opinions, I've not yet been able to determine.

Speaking plainly, it seems like a lot of people just sort of snap to a judgment or a course of action, on the basis of their *emotional* impulses, and get mad at those who don't do that, or who, through stopping to consider the broader ramifications of their actions, arrive at a conclusion that goes against their emotional bias. As I've said before, in another thread that got locked, I don't do that, and I *can't,* because among other things, my emotions travel in only one direction; the direction *contrary* to the insecurities of others. Namely, I can only appreciate the things that others disdain, and this is nowhere more evident than in my inability to feel tender emotion for anything that isn't large and soft.

I feel that true peace and understanding won't be achieved, until people accept it as a *principle* motivated by *genuine love and concern for their fellow man,* rather than by just their own emotional revulsion over feeling badly when others act in a certain way towards them. I don't expect others will agree with me, which is why I don't usually get mad at them. I don't have any false expectations. I just stick to what I'm convinced the truth is, because I think it's true. Truth is not equal to falsehood. That's all.

This isn't a counter-argument. I just wanted to express what my position is on all this.


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 16, 2017)

wrestlingguy said:


> A friend of mine wrote an article a while back called "Why I'm Over The Size Acceptance Movement or Hey, SA, What Have You Done For Me Lately?"
> This article touches on that topic, and how it can cause alienation to many people within the movement. Obviously it's all her perspective, but in reading it, I had to wonder how many others felt the same way.
> 
> Thoughts?



Nice article, wrestlingguy, I will save it for reading it later. I was very busy now but thanks for posting it in this thread!!!


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 20, 2017)

Ned Sonntag said:


> If you, Colonial Warrior are wondering which group Phil might be referring to when he says "their existence"... wonder no further. Seriously, don't bother. And that last sentence? I apologize:blush: on behalf of FAs everywhere for that one.



You're welcome Ned Sonntag!!!


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## Colonial Warrior (Jun 23, 2017)

I wish to thank all of you for your coperation!!!


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## TwoSwords (Jun 23, 2017)

Colonial Warrior said:


> I wish to thank all of you for your coperation!!!



You're welcome.


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