# Describing "Fat" in a way that is decent and preserves the dignity of others



## landshark (Oct 13, 2014)

Does anyone struggle with this besides me?

Here is what I mean. I personally do not like to use the word "fat" when describing someone. I think it is belittling and undermines that person's dignity. I realize not everyone here feels that way. Some are indifferent to it, and others seem to even embrace it. I guess we all see the same thing a little differently, and that should come as no surprise. 

I also noticed that while my wife would describe herself as fat, if I did I could look out! The word was hurtful to her when from out outside source, especially her husband.

But it's not just "fat." For a long time I preferred words like "overweight" because it was a much more gentle way to describe someone. Yet the more I think about it the more I am alert to the implication derived from the term, that being society has an ideal weight range for people and someone who is above that is "overweight." Again, it is not as hurtful as "fat" but it gives legitimacy to an arbitrary standard society has adopted as "ideal."

Saying someone carried "extra pounds" is the exact same thing. "BBW" can be dangerous territory because of the use of the word "big." I described my wife as a BBW once and she shut that down! 

Now one thing I learned was to avoid explaining myself if at all possible. When a date asked why I was interested in her, I eventually just started explaining every guy likes a pretty girl and I was no different. But sometimes it was impossible to tap dance around the elephant in the room. (I can't believe I just said that. :doh Sometimes the subject of weight would just come up and there was no avoiding it. And in those cases, looking for the right way to explain an often sensitive subject was a challenge.

I've also learned a lot about how to interact with my wife, what she likes, dislikes, and how this subject should be addressed with her. Where I still find the topic interesting is how society approaches it.

It is still very much appropriate to deride "fat." Don't believe me? At least once a week I'll see some asshat in his lifted pickup (with the nutsack trailer hitch cover) and a sticker that says, "No fat chicks." Go ahead and swap out "fat" for "black" and see how acceptable that is. We also often hear reference to the "obesity problem" even though the metric employed is BMI, which GREATLY overstates the problem. For example, I am 5'7" and weigh 165. I used to do a lot of endurance running, but a series of knee and ankle injuries forced me off the trails and into the weight room. I'm in solid shape, lean/muscular, have good physique (I like to think I'm a slightly smaller version of Michelangelo's David) and my BMI is 25.8, well into the "overweight." Nobody who sees me unclothed would ever conclude I am "overweight." So any study using BMI as a metric is flawed from the start.

So here is my question. How do you approach it? Does society lack a dignified way to describe "fat?" Or am I overly sensitive to this? FWIW, I have no use whatsoever for political correctness. But I do value the dignity of others. There has got to be a way to give a one-word physical description of someone that doesn't convey negative. We have "thin" "athletic" "petite" "curvy" and so on. But if I want to give a one word description of a woman who is 5'4" and over 300 pounds, how would I go about it in such a way that describes her basic shape and size but doesn't convey a negative connotation?

I welcome your thoughts.


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## agouderia (Oct 13, 2014)

This discussion has been held several times around here - definitely in the Library and the BHM/FFA board; though mostly on threads initially about other issues. 

Whether or not to use 'fat' is contested - some people here think a pro-active use of the word would help overcome the stigma associated with the word. Personally I'm more doubtful about that - it still is way too mainstream in most parts of the world that open, even agressive fat discrimination is socially accepted.

What works imo as the most neutral and broad alternative adjective, since it is mostly used in a more descriptive manner is 'heavy'. It also leaves room for interpretation and imagination.

Also - different adjectives go with BBW respectively BHM.

BBWs can be abundant, Rubenesque, naturally round, plump, cushioned, ample, maybe sizable or well-padded.

Big - because in men it also has the strong/powerful connotation to it - actually works for BHM, as do husky, imposing, bulky, burly, massive, hefty, substantial for similiar reasons. Even mountainous for a very big guy still has a positive ring to it (just read that this morning in a portrayal), or beefy, even meaty or the old-fashioned portly. 

That it is more difficult to find wording that has a positive side to it for BBWs reflects that more weight still is much less tolerated for women than for men.

Always helpful for those in search of words: thesaurus.com.


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## jbason (Oct 15, 2014)

My girlfriend's old roommate in a neutral tone sometimes used the adjective '*Weighty'*.

It can be used to mean Heavy, Serious, or Influential.


I sometimes use the phrase 'Of size'. as with all matters YMMV.


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## one2one (Oct 16, 2014)

I think that the answer varies as much as people do as individuals. In simple terms, any descriptor that carries negative connotations for someone could be objectionable to them, and words that they associate with positive things are acceptable. Just as you got to know your wife's preferences and feelings about various words, other people will have their own experience of the same terms.

So, yes, society absolutely lacks a dignified way to describe fat for a couple reasons. Because it varies with individuals AND because we're (in the US) such an extremely sizeist culture. Which is also part of the reason why everyone has their own experience with different word.

To be honest, I don't think it's really a given that we need to use size descriptors when referring to other people so much as it is very, very common in this culture to do so and really acceptable to to it in ways that could be insulting. We don't have a public language for _appreciating_ the full spectrum of humanity, and it's not just BBWs and BHM. 

I am intrinsically attracted to men who have an average/athletic build and are not considered tall. I had to be really careful in how I phrased that so as not to offend anyone by using the word "short", or demean anyone over 6'. It's interesting that you mentioned David because if I'm forced to explain the attraction, it has to do with how beautiful the proportions are, although it's much more than just that. And also less; as simple as the part of the spectrum I'm most naturally drawn toward. Even so, it rarely needs to be spelled out, with one exception. Invariably, when I'm beginning to date someone new who is beautifully proportioned it's a question they have that needs to be answered. In the very same way that I want to know how they feel about my size. Which all comes back to it being much more between individuals and less about the larger question of society.

I think we'll begin to address that larger issue when the words "physical size" appear in every Diversity and Inclusion policy at the state and national level, and the pejoratives are publicly unacceptable. Then we can just use pronouns.

Does that make sense?


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## liz (di-va) (Oct 16, 2014)

Sometimes the words _big_ or _large_ can work like _fat_, if you need them. They have the same virtue of being (somewhat) literally descriptive and not relative/based on judgement/etc. _Overweight_ is pointless. _Extra pounds_ is pointless. Both indicate that there's another way someone should be.

Context is a crucial component to this question, so it's impossible to answer of all what you're asking, OP.

Personally I am fine with "fat" (that is how I describe myself), most of the time. Depends on who's saying it and how, of course. But if I were dating a man who was scared to use the word it'd be kind of a problem.


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## Ruby Ripples (Oct 16, 2014)

A friend of mine referred to me as "stout". It made me feel like a barrel, lol. 

Fat is fine for me!


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## ConnieLynn (Oct 16, 2014)

I'm fine with fat, but I try not to reference body types when describing people. If I really need to, I might say someone is a big guy, or a substantial woman.


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## superodalisque (Oct 17, 2014)

fat is fine with me. it's like saying i have brown eyes which i do. when you hesitate or make negative associations it feels like something is wrong with being fat. for me it makes about as much sense as my getting mad because someone said i was african american. i have NOTHING to ashamed of. it's a problem to always be orienting yourself through the eyes of a negative other. it might be healthier to get rid of all of that anti fat double consciousness.


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## superodalisque (Oct 17, 2014)

Ruby Ripples said:


> A friend of mine referred to me as "stout". It made me feel like a barrel, lol.
> 
> Fat is fine for me!




a barrel of guinness?


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## loopytheone (Oct 17, 2014)

I tend to say big, or bigger. But as a general rule I avoid referring to body types at all.

Unless I am with a partner, then it is kinda inevitable for me. I remember I used to call my ex chubby and round and soft. But I'd not call somebody I didn't know these things because I don't know what associations they might have with them.


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## GordoNegro (Oct 17, 2014)

Eventually us fatties will have to claim ownership of the word FAT. It's not a 4 letter word, it's a descriptive term. Not saying it can be done overnight, but we can fight the negative connotations that word brings. Knowing as curvaceous and body positive blogs gain popularity, some will find offense with the word SKINNY. The nonsense has to stop sometime.
To the original poster, if someone is curious about how your significant other looks you can always make positive comparisons (..She's like Melissa McCarthy but hotter (if possible), She's my Precious (Gabourney Sidibe)..or She's Sofia Vegara's Ultra-thick twin, ..She's like Nell Carter returning from the stars/heavens)ie.
Just my .02 cents.


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## landshark (Oct 17, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your well-thought replies. I agree with those who believe we should work to remove the stigma of the word "fat." At the same time I think I'll continue to tread lightly. For those who are not averse to it, I believe that speaks to your level of confidence and really applaud you.


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## superodalisque (Oct 18, 2014)

maybe it's time to question accepting fat as a stigma or as being somehow undignified or disrespectful. if such notions were true that would mean because we are fat that we are undignified and not deserving of respect. we define the meaning and ourselves. when i come across someone who is overly sensitive to the word fat i feel suspect of that person and their subconscious view of fat people and their place in the world. fat people are dignified. fat people are respectable. we have nothing to be ashamed of. IMO skirting the issue with tired patronizing euphemisms just makes us look otherwise.

by hanging on to those words that skirt the issue all you do is enable the rest of society to continue to shape being fat as a negative. it's like those average sized folk who look at fat people and say " but your not "fat", you're pretty neat dress well are intelligent and smell good." as though to be fat means you have to be dumb sloppy stupid and nasty. fat is just a size. it has no negative moral, aesthetic or other implications anymore than being tall or short does.

when "admirers" rely on hiding the word in their vocabulary it also looks like a way to not admit to yourself that you like and are attracted to fat people. you can pretend they are something else --something less "negative" in your own mind or the mind of strangers who don't really know or care about you that you give so much power to to shape and define your most intimate self defining and important relationships regarding your happiness. it can be another way of hiding or being closeted even in plain sight.


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## Blockierer (Oct 18, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> ... when "admirers" rely on hiding the word in their vocabulary it also looks like a way to not admit to yourself that you like and are attracted to fat people. ...


Exactly, that's why I label myself as a fat admirer". To be honest, I really like the term. In my case it means I'm attracted to fat women. And, I'm neither ashamed or proud.


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## landshark (Oct 18, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> maybe it's time to question accepting fat as a stigma or as being somehow undignified or disrespectful. if such notions were true that would mean because we are fat that we are undignified and not deserving of respect. we define the meaning and ourselves. when i come across someone who is overly sensitive to the word fat i feel suspect of that person and their subconscious view of fat people and their place in the world. fat people are dignified. fat people are respectable. we have nothing to be ashamed of. *IMO skirting the issue with tired patronizing euphemisms just makes us look otherwise.*



I agree that it does seem patronizing, but not all fat people feel the way you feel about it. "Fat" is a stigma to a lot of people and it will take a long time to remove and/or overcome that stigma. Until then, if there is a positive or at worst, benign way to describe "fat" (a term akin to "Lean" "athletic" "petite" "curvy" ) should we not encourage its use? 



superodalisque said:


> by hanging on to those words that skirt the issue all you do is enable the rest of society to continue to shape being fat as a negative. it's like those average sized folk who look at fat people and say " but your not "fat", you're pretty neat dress well are intelligent and smell good." as though to be fat means you have to be dumb sloppy stupid and nasty. fat is just a size. it has no negative moral, aesthetic or other implications anymore than being tall or short does.



Definitely agree with the idea you are conveying. People hear "fat" and immediately conjure up an image of Honey-Boo-Boo's mom. Unrefined, uneducated, unintelligent, not put together properly, probably smells bad, possibly lazy and with bad manners. There are indeed fat people who do fit this image, just as there are in EVERY other body type out there! The key is this image generally only comes to mind at the mention of "fat." How do we deconstruct this asinine image? You got me, there. However we do it, it will take time and patience. 



superodalisque said:


> when "admirers" rely on hiding the word in their vocabulary it also looks like a way to not admit to yourself that you like and are attracted to fat people. you can pretend they are something else --something less "negative" in your own mind or the mind of strangers who don't really know or care about you that you give so much power to to shape and define your most intimate self defining and important relationships regarding your happiness. it can be another way of hiding or being closeted even in plain sight.



I completely disagree with this one. For me it is a recognition the word is still hurtful to a lot of people. I don't feel the least bit embarrassed or ashamed of the women I find attractive. I outgrew that a long time ago. But if they find the word "fat" to be a hurtful description I am perfectly willing to find one that isn't. 

Then again, I can only answer for myself. This may be true of others.


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## bigmac (Oct 18, 2014)

"Big" or "Very Big" is about as good as it gets if you have to discreetly describe someone's physical appearance.

Some folks don't even try to be discreet -- when my wife delivered our third daughter her hospital chart described her as elderly and obese.


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## superodalisque (Oct 18, 2014)

happily_married said:


> I agree that it does seem patronizing, but not all fat people feel the way you feel about it. "Fat" is a stigma to a lot of people and it will take a long time to remove and/or overcome that stigma. Until then, if there is a positive or at worst, benign way to describe "fat" (a term akin to "Lean" "athletic" "petite" "curvy" ) should we not encourage its use?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



have you ever thought that maybe if people top assuming right away that it is something hurtful people will eventually be able to stop feeling hurt. what if folks could say it like it_ wasn't_ a bad thing? people are always asking how they can be helpful. well this just might be a way.

assuming fat will be a hurtful description probably isn't really very helpful at all. avoidance doesn't help anyone to evolve and to see that they are ok fat. they need positive energy to counter the negative not a silence that masquerades as agreement.


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## superodalisque (Oct 18, 2014)

bigmac said:


> "Big" or "Very Big" is about as good as it gets if you have to discreetly describe someone's physical appearance.
> 
> Some folks don't even try to be discreet -- when my wife delivered our third daughter her hospital chart described her as elderly and obese.



a medical chart is not a place to look for any kind of compliment anyway. since when was medicine known for discretion. that isn't their job. the best i got was "surprisingly good health" because i didn't present with anything being fat and 50.


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## musicman (Oct 18, 2014)

happily_married said:


> I agree that it does seem patronizing, but not all fat people feel the way you feel about it. "Fat" is a stigma to a lot of people and it will take a long time to remove and/or overcome that stigma. Until then, if there is a positive or at worst, benign way to describe "fat" (a term akin to "Lean" "athletic" "petite" "curvy" ) should we not encourage its use?



NO, Fat Acceptance isn't about mollycoddling people that have bought into the anti-fat messages promulgated by the diet, medical, pharma, fashion, and media industries. It's about telling people it's OK to be fat, and you can only do that by reclaiming the word "fat". Use it and show the world that it's only a harmless adjective, like "tall", "short", or "thin".



superodalisque said:


> have you ever thought that maybe if people top assuming right away that it is something hurtful people will eventually be able to stop feeling hurt. what if folks could say it like it_ wasn't_ a bad thing? people are always asking how they can be helpful. well this just might be a way.
> 
> assuming fat will be a hurtful description probably isn't really very helpful at all. avoidance doesn't help anyone to evolve and to see that they are ok fat. they need positive energy to counter the negative not a silence that masquerades as agreement.



I agree with this 100%.


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## agouderia (Oct 19, 2014)

SuperO, musicman - this is the difference between activism and functioning communication in practice.

For communication to work you need a transmitter and a receiver who are tuned in on the same wave length.

If you say to someone who's fat and hates it: "Oh, you're fat and it's so beautiful," - the person will at best take it as bitter irony, more likely zone out immediately. Your message fat=beautiful, positive will never make it into the other person's conscious because either he/she will have switched off the receiver totally or the message will have been drowned in negative interferences. 

So the message intention might be laudable - but you'll never get it across because you're using a communicative wave length the receipient refuses or is unable to tune into. You might as well be speaking Ancient Greek or whichever other language your counterpart doesn't speak.

It's something totally different if you say: 'I'm fat and it's good because ..." - then the counterpart has a chance of reflecting the message since it doesn't affect him/her intimately. 

Changing the communication code of a society single-handedly is unrealistic. Change comes slowly, subversively by using existing, understood patterns. 

There are many examples for this out there. One of the most recent and successful is the de-stigmatization of the term 'gay'. The term became positive or at least normal not because of forcing people to come out of the closet - but because of those who came out themselves and used it as a postive, normal reference for themselves.


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## landshark (Oct 19, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> have you ever thought that *maybe if people top assuming right away that it is something hurtful* people will eventually be able to stop feeling hurt. what if folks could say it like it_ wasn't_ a bad thing? people are always asking how they can be helpful. well this just might be a way.
> 
> assuming fat will be a hurtful description probably isn't really very helpful at all. avoidance doesn't help anyone to evolve and to see that they are ok fat. they need positive energy to counter the negative not a silence that masquerades as agreement.



What makes you think I'm assuming anything? That's sort of an assumption in and of itself, and it's not an accurate one either. I've know people who genuinely are fine with the term "fat" but I've never actually had a partner who was. And I knew they were not okay with the term because I either asked directly or it came out on its own. But I never assumed one way or the other. 

I once tried something with my wife. I actually told her I loved how fat she was. I said I hoped she understood how I don't consider it a bad thing, that it was used as a compliment, and that I hoped she would recognize such. She just cried. Later we talk about it and she said, "What if I genuinely believed the word 'asshole' was a compliment?" To her there is still a stigma. Some people are immune to it. Good for them. Others are not, and that is something we should respect.

Before I was married I had a few different girlfriends with whom I had similar conversations. On couldn't exactly identify why the word was hurtful but she just knew it was. I remember another said it made her sound lazy and stupid when in truth she was a very industrious and intelligent person. She was right, though, the word conjures up an image of slothfulness and a lack of intelligence.

So please know I ask this question not assuming anything. I've explored this directly and have achieved fairly similar results from person to person.



musicman said:


> NO, Fat Acceptance isn't about mollycoddling people that have bought into the anti-fat messages promulgated by the diet, medical, pharma, fashion, and media industries. It's about telling people it's OK to be fat, and you can only do that by reclaiming the word "fat". Use it and show the world that it's only a harmless adjective, like "tall", "short", or "thin".



And this discussion is not a discussion purely on fat acceptance. That is a very specific movement with clearly stated objectives. While some of those may overlap into the realm discussed on this thread, the relationship is entirely coincidental. 

Further, this isn't about "mollycoddling" either. To find a way to describe someone in such a way they feel their dignity and respect as a human being is upheld is not "mollycoddling." Not even close. It's simply a matter of being a decent person to others. If someone doesn't like the term and you are able to use another to accomplish the same goal but with less/no stigma, would you not use it? Or are you too hung up on de-stigmatizing a word that you'll sacrifice the emotions and feelings of others to make your point?



agouderia said:


> SuperO, musicman - this is the difference between activism and functioning communication in practice...



Spot on post. Thank you for contributing this. I hope people will see the value in what you've said here. Communication is very much a two-way street. If people aren't on the same frequency...:doh:


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## bigmac (Oct 19, 2014)

musicman said:


> NO, Fat Acceptance isn't about mollycoddling people that have bought into the anti-fat messages promulgated by the diet, medical, pharma, fashion, and media industries. It's about telling people it's OK to be fat, and you can only do that by reclaiming the word "fat". Use it and show the world that it's only a harmless adjective, like "tall", "short", or "thin".
> 
> ...




Yes -- its far better to say my significant other is a *hot fat chick *than it is to use any of the thinly veiled euphemisms.


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## musicman (Oct 19, 2014)

happily_married said:


> And this discussion is not a discussion purely on fat acceptance. That is a very specific movement with clearly stated objectives. While some of those may overlap into the realm discussed on this thread, the relationship is entirely coincidental.
> 
> Further, this isn't about "mollycoddling" either. To find a way to describe someone in such a way they feel their dignity and respect as a human being is upheld is not "mollycoddling." Not even close. It's simply a matter of being a decent person to others. If someone doesn't like the term and you are able to use another to accomplish the same goal but with less/no stigma, would you not use it? *Or are you too hung up on de-stigmatizing a word that you'll sacrifice the emotions and feelings of others to make your point?*




You asked a question, and I answered it. Why do you feel the need to question my motivation? We may disagree, but I don't question YOUR motives. We're all here to help fat people. I'm sorry that you have to watch your tongue around your wife, but I still maintain that avoiding a word like "fat" will simply reinforce its negative connotation, which is good for the fat-haters but not for us. The diet and weight loss scammers would love to have that word all to themselves. And suppose you find the perfect substitute word. Won't the anti-fat messages simply change to use that word instead? What will you do then?

To me, fat acceptance isn't some radical utopian agenda. It's mostly just self-acceptance. We'll never be able to stop the anti-fat messages as long as there is so much profit in making people feel inferior. But we can help fat people innoculate themselves from those toxic messages. We can start to take away the audience for those messages. But we can't be afraid to use the same language they use.

I want fat people, one by one, to wake up and say, "Yes, I'm fat, but so what? You're short (or tall, or thin). I'm no better or worse than you just because I'm fat. I may or may not lose weight, but I will do it for my own reasons, and not because of irrelevant bullsh*t in the media. I will not waste my money on every diet scam that appears, because I know that none of them have more than a 5% chance of success and many of them can be quite harmful. I will not accept the substandard medical care I receive when my doctor blames everything on my weight and refuses to do a proper diagnosis. I will not jump on the latest weight loss drug even if it's FDA approved, because I know the FDA will approve anything if enough money changes hands." (Ever heard of fen-phen? How many people suffered irreparable heart damage due to that FDA-approved drug?)

I would hope that everyone here wants something like that. I've seen this awakening actually happen to people, on here and at NAAFA and elsewhere. So don't question my motives because I didn't answer your question in a manner which validates your pre-conceived biases. Open your mind up to alternative viewpoints.


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## superodalisque (Oct 19, 2014)

agouderia said:


> SuperO, musicman - this is the difference between activism and functioning communication in practice.
> 
> For communication to work you need a transmitter and a receiver who are tuned in on the same wave length.
> 
> ...



there is no difference if you have social skills and communicate properly with people. hopefully sane people don't just go around pointing at people and saying "fat" with no lead in or explanation. everything is done in a context and how you communicate shapes that context. if you are fat or you claim to support fat people you are or should be an activist and probably will be whether you like it or not anytime you stand up for yourself or anyone else. like it or not you are responsible for setting the correct tone. otherwise you are another member of the silent consent to fatphobia pure and simple. 

changing the context is not unrealistic if you practice your communication skills. what is truly unrealistic is expecting the society around you to change without changing yourself. be the change.

PS: you made your point for me. things changed for the LGBT community because they and their allies took the stigma away.

fat people are not the LGBT community. there are more of us. we are NOT a minority group. no one has lynched killed or jailed us for being fat. people have been married to fat folk for centuries. fat people could always adopt children and live anywhere they wanted. the problem developed recently and it can be solved today if people would stop finally stand up and stop being scared of nothing but a nasty look or comment etc... but there are those in the community who benefit from the stigma and the otherness and refuse to face a little social discomfort for it to be totally removed. actually after all of this time i don't think it is in their personal interest for it to be removed. if it were they would make it their job to change things for the better instead of always being additional opposition to the change that has to happen.


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## superodalisque (Oct 19, 2014)

musicman said:


> You asked a question, and I answered it. Why do you feel the need to question my motivation? We may disagree, but I don't question YOUR motives. We're all here to help fat people. I'm sorry that you have to watch your tongue around your wife, but I still maintain that avoiding a word like "fat" will simply reinforce its negative connotation, which is good for the fat-haters but not for us. The diet and weight loss scammers would love to have that word all to themselves. And suppose you find the perfect substitute word. Won't the anti-fat messages simply change to use that word instead? What will you do then?
> 
> To me, fat acceptance isn't some radical utopian agenda. It's mostly just self-acceptance. We'll never be able to stop the anti-fat messages as long as there is so much profit in making people feel inferior. But we can help fat people innoculate themselves from those toxic messages. We can start to take away the audience for those messages. But we can't be afraid to use the same language they use.
> 
> ...



i agree. i would be more likely to question the motivation of someone who comes here and does not want to be a part of a positive change. what IS the point other than being exploitive of the situation as it stands.


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## landshark (Oct 19, 2014)

musicman said:


> You asked a question, and I answered it. Why do you feel the need to question my motivation? We may disagree, but I don't question YOUR motives.



You implied my approach was "mollycoddling." I addressed that. SuperO made some assumptions that were not true and I addressed them. I pose a question, all are welcome to respond, and all, myself included, are welcome to respond to the responses. This is what we call a discussion. 



musicman said:


> We're all here to help fat people. *I'm sorry that you have to watch your tongue around your wife,* but I still maintain that avoiding a word like "fat" will simply reinforce its negative connotation, which is good for the fat-haters but not for us. The diet and weight loss scammers would love to have that word all to themselves. *And suppose you find the perfect substitute word. Won't the anti-fat messages simply change to use that word instead? What will you do then?*



There is nothing to be sorry about. I tried an approach that sounds like it is more consistent with an approach you favor. It didn't work. The take away is it doesn't matter how I view the term, or anyone else for that matter. All conversations are a two-way (at minimum) engagement. I'm just part of that. What I say and intend is actually irrelevant to a great degree. How it is received is what is relevant.

As for the perfect "substitute word" I don't believe your question follows logic. Just because I use a more acceptable word doesn't mean people are going to adapt to it as well. "No Plus-Size Chicks" instead of "No Fat Chicks" on the bumper stickers of lifted pickup trucks? Probably not.




musicman said:


> To me, fat acceptance isn't some radical utopian agenda. It's mostly just self-acceptance. We'll never be able to stop the anti-fat messages as long as there is so much profit in making people feel inferior. But we can help fat people innoculate themselves from those toxic messages. We can start to take away the audience for those messages. But we can't be afraid to use the same language they use.



I actually agree that self-acceptance is the long pole in the tent of fat acceptance. But finding descriptive language that does not convey a negative image is a big part of that. Like I've explained, I've tried an approach closer to what you seem to advocate and it didn't seem to work. I'm glad it has worked for you, just remember your experience is not universal. 



musicman said:


> I would hope that everyone here wants something like that. I've seen this awakening actually happen to people, on here and at NAAFA and elsewhere. *So don't question my motives because I didn't answer your question in a manner which validates your pre-conceived biases.* Open your mind up to alternative viewpoints.



This isn't a matter of questioning your motives. It's a statement of disagreement with your motives. That's okay to do, right? This is again, how a discussion works. Plus you say you haven't questioned my motives, yet dismiss my approach as "mollycoddling." You don't actually expect people to just nod their head and say, "Yeah, you're right about that." do you? I encourage you to follow your own advice, and open YOUR mind to alternate view points.


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## landshark (Oct 19, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> i agree. i would be more likely to question the motivation of someone who comes here and does not want to be a part of a positive change. what IS the point other than being exploitive of the situation as it stands.



How do you define "positive change?"


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## FluffyButterfly80 (Oct 19, 2014)

As a newb to the whole fat acceptance/self acceptance thing- I am one of the people who is still sensitive to being called fat. Yes... I'm fat. LOL But I just can't get comfortable being called fat. I know it's because of the stigma we are all talking about here. 

I understand that it's just a physical trait. But I still feel hurt if and when i hear someone call me or even just describe me as fat. I remember once in high school I was in the back of the room and for whatever reason someone came into the room looking for me...and i heard the person that pointed me out describe me as "the bigger girl over there in the back".... and I remember feeling crushed by that. 

I don't think there are any synonyms that will make it any better. LOL And that's because I'm just not there yet. 

I feel like as someone said earlier it is gonna vary from person to person.


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## bluetech (Oct 20, 2014)

I prefer to use the term 'plus size'. It is a common term that everyone understands, but isn't actually a euphemism like some other terms in common use like 'curvy'. It simply states that they are of a size that is greater than some other size, yet using the word 'plus' implies that the size in question is a positive thing, as opposed to terms like overweight that imply that the person is 'over' the weight that they 'should be'.


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## superodalisque (Oct 21, 2014)

happily_married said:


> How do you define "positive change?"



not being ashamed of being fat or with someone fat and a society that doesn't get to smell fear that they can use to victimize people every time the word is said.


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## superodalisque (Oct 21, 2014)

FluffyButterfly80 said:


> As a newb to the whole fat acceptance/self acceptance thing- I am one of the people who is still sensitive to being called fat. Yes... I'm fat. LOL But I just can't get comfortable being called fat. I know it's because of the stigma we are all talking about here.
> 
> I understand that it's just a physical trait. But I still feel hurt if and when i hear someone call me or even just describe me as fat. I remember once in high school I was in the back of the room and for whatever reason someone came into the room looking for me...and i heard the person that pointed me out describe me as "the bigger girl over there in the back".... and I remember feeling crushed by that.
> 
> ...



i can understand that. what some of us are aiming at is the day when a beautiful woman just like you has heard fat but only _mainly _in a positive sense. we just want to start that ball rolling. hopefully maybe if you hear it used that way often enough you might feel better about it. if society hears us use that way enough it will also be changed. 

i remember when a black woman no matter who they were or how they looked were supposed to be ugly. dark skin big lips and a big behind or thighs were supposed to be so awful. white men also wanted to have sex with black women on the DL. people who dated or interracially married faced a LOT of negativity. but when people started saying black is beautiful things began to change. it took some people a long time to believe it after being exposed to the opposite for so long. some still don't quite believe it just yet, but the atmosphere has definitely changed a lot from when it as okay for everyone to hate on black characteristics. 

we just can't leave all of the comments about fat people in the hands of the fat phobics. it has to start changing somewhere even if it's just one baby step at a time. staying in the same place, as you well know, isn't going to help anybody. that's why you are trying to change your own outlook. people who want you to stay in that place and enable you to stay in that place are not your friends. they aren't on your side. they don't believe in you. they also wouldn't mind if you never felt equal. be very careful of people like that. they might seem harmless but they are very damaging. they get something out of your suffering. and that something is more important to them than you are.


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## one2one (Oct 21, 2014)

I still believe that people have a right to choose how they want to be referred to instead of forced to accept words that they're uncomfortable with or are likely to perpetuate prejudice. I understand the desire to reclaim words that have been used in demeaning ways and am all for it for the people who want to do that, but I also know that within any group perspectives will vary among individuals. In the end, none of us can control how other people experience things or how they feel. One size does not fit all.

I have a friend who is naturally tall and thin. She's 5' 11" and probably a size 4. I think 'thin' is a very benign descriptor, but for her it's a word that carries with it a lifetime of hurtful experiences. Of trying to gain weight in high school (unsuccessfully, even on cheeseburgers and malts) so she'd be asked out, of every comment in which it wasn't the word thin or skinny but the tone in which they were said that made peoples' negative opinions clear, and all the times someone has assumed she had an eating disorder. 

I get that. I feel the same way about obese, for the same reasons. I don't have an eating disorder either, but there are people who will never believe that could be possible. I care about her feelings, and I don't use the word when I'm around her. I also don't chase after my friend who is arachnophobic with spiders, as though I were in charge of forcing her to undergo exposure therapy. It's the kind of thing people get to choose for themselves. 

And it's not that I can't be loud and proud about my innate value and rights. If we could get together a group big enough to be effective, I would march on the American Medical Association as fast as I could get a flight to Chicago. I kid you, not.

I agree that building on small changes is important. I also agree that language is extremely powerful. I'm just not sure reclaiming 'fat' or holding national demonstrations will be the tipping point. The GLBT community worked for years to try to change legislation that is only changing now, many decades later. They were initially very unsuccessful with their petitions, until they began petitioning the Library of Congress to change the subject heading in library catalogs. They were able to get the see reference removed that connected homosexuality and lesbianism to sexual perversion. Which then led to declassifying them as pathologies in Psychiatric manuals. Both have to do with referring to them in more accurate and respectful ways, and that provides part of a stable foundation for significant, global change.

And I prefer the term goddess.


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## landshark (Oct 21, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> not being ashamed of being fat or with someone fat and a society that doesn't get to smell fear that they can use to victimize people every time the word is said.



I think you and I ultimately want the same thing. I would like to see "fat" itself de-stigmatized. Terms and language are a means to that end. Your approach and my approach differ, but I believe they work toward the same goal.

Some people are fast to assume ownership for the word "fat." It is still very damaging to others. What I like about my approach idiot holds all of society to a higher standard. If the word "fat" hurts some maybe we can phase it out and phase in the idea it is no longer socially acceptable to deride those who weigh more than society deems acceptable.

Also, at the beginning I said I have no use for political correctness. I don't want to see these changes in thought process imposed on anyone. What I wish we could see was people one by one deciding for themselves they will not indulge those who still scorn people due to weight.

A high ideal? Definitely. Doable? At least in my little part of the world it is.


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## edinwiddie (Oct 21, 2014)

Well for a woman I would use bountiful instead of fat. But most seem to think I'm being insincere. So I say we keep at it until Fat loses it's negative connotations.


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## superodalisque (Oct 22, 2014)

happily_married said:


> I think you and I ultimately want the same thing. I would like to see "fat" itself de-stigmatized. Terms and language are a means to that end. Your approach and my approach differ, but I believe they work toward the same goal.
> 
> Some people are fast to assume ownership for the word "fat." It is still very damaging to others. What I like about my approach idiot holds all of society to a higher standard. If the word "fat" hurts some maybe we can phase it out and phase in the idea it is no longer socially acceptable to deride those who weigh more than society deems acceptable.
> 
> ...




i doubt we really have anything much in common since i AM in actuality fat. being fat i also would never think it was okay to be ashamed of being fat. i don't castigate people who are trying to evolve but i definitely wouldn't pretend that being ashamed was a place were they should stay. myself and others help them along by releasing the from the shame. that makes people happy. happiness is the goal. pretending there is no such thing as fat doesn't release anyone from any of the negativity. it keeps them retarded in the shame and societal prejudice. everyone has had to be encouraged to leave their comfort zone to grow as a person. if we're always staying in the comfort zone we never learn anything new and we stay exactly where we are instead of making progress. by being ashamed of being fat all you do is give negative people more power over you to control your emotions. 

and as a fat person i feel there is absolutely nothing in denying who and what i really am. it would be like trying to pass for white. it wouldn't be overcoming anything. it would be relinquishing my self worth and identity to prejudice and bowing down to bullies. there is nowhere to run or hide from the fact that people ARE fat. there is something deeply wrong with being ashamed of yourself which is why people come here--they feel that already. 

fat is NOT a pejorative it is a fact. people ARE fat just like people are thin or tall or short. being ashamed of that is not healthy.
being PC is not an issue. being fat isn't a handicap, physical or mental challenge. it is just a size. the real issue is the negativity that people feel inside toward themselves. people will have something bad to say about you no matter what. as someone has already posted a woman has a problem with being called thin because of her experiences even though society says you can't be too thin. people have an issue with you being tall short and average. society has an issue with you if you are rich or poor. you can even be the societal idea of perfect and beautiful and people will still hate on you and try and victimize you. basically we are all running around hating on each other but especially ourselves. we have low self esteem and are always interpolating things about ourselves based on what we feel others think about us. we have to create a new and positive reality to live it. there is no safe place for anyone. so it's time to grow up. it's time to start living and loving ourselves as we are.


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## superodalisque (Oct 22, 2014)

this fake idea of a nirvana where people expect that everyone is will be respected and treated in ways where they will always be comfortable within themselves is making people suffer. it's unrealistic. it does not exist. knowing that, what next? what gift can a fat person give to themselves ?


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## landshark (Oct 22, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> this fake idea of a nirvana where people expect that everyone is will be respected and treated in ways where they will always be comfortable within themselves is making people suffer. it's unrealistic. it does not exist. knowing that, what next? what gift can a fat person give to themselves ?



If you believe this, why are you arguing the points you are arguing over on the "MILF" thread. You are failing the consistency test, Ma'am. Not only that, but just because the ideal I seek may be a long shot for attaining, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Hell, we still have racism in our society. Just because we can never fully stamp it out doesn't mean we shouldn't expect society to tow the line at a level that respects others. 



superodalisque said:


> *i doubt we really have anything much in common *since i AM in actuality fat.



I can see why a lot of other members on other threads say you are condescending. I sought common ground and you are dismissive of it. And I suspect you are so with little to know actual critical thought, as evidenced by your inconsistency from one discussion to another. 

The thing is, I do agree with you that the stigma can be mitigated to a great extend if people themselves take ownership for derogatory terms. That simply doesn't work for everyone, though. It's no more attainable than the approach I've advocated. The difference between you and I is I can actually recognize the legitimacy in someone else's point of view. You are either unwilling or unable to so the same. 

Further arguing is pointless, especially when I consider us ultimately desiring the same basic end state. I simply have no use for people who cannot recognize the validity in someone else's argument, and make it a point to disengage when I realize what I'm dealing with.

Best wishes and happy hunting to you.


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## superodalisque (Oct 22, 2014)

happily_married said:


> If you believe this, why are you arguing the points you are arguing over on the "MILF" thread. You are failing the consistency test, Ma'am. Not only that, but just because the ideal I seek may be a long shot for attaining, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Hell, we still have racism in our society. Just because we can never fully stamp it out doesn't mean we shouldn't expect society to tow the line at a level that respects others.
> 
> I can see why a lot of other members on other threads say you are condescending. I sought common ground and you are dismissive of it. And I suspect you are so with little to know actual critical thought, as evidenced by your inconsistency from one discussion to another.
> 
> ...




i don't mind that other's think i'm condescending. from who it's coming from it's not that big of a deal to me. i put other people's opinions in their proper place. i'm just being straight. i just don't find much in common with average sized people who'd encourage fat people to keep bowing down to shame. we are just not on the same wave length. we are not going to agree on that. i don't hate you for it but it is what it is. and i'm not going to start agreeing with you so you'll like what i have to say or feel better about your position. take it or leave it.

no need to hunt. no need to wish you well or ill. it's not even about you.


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## Skye23 (Oct 23, 2014)

I have a tendency to call myself a fat chick, although I suspect its mostly due to the fact that using that term seems to switch to uncomfortableness in a situation from me to the other party. So if I'm offered a chair I know I'll break, or a booth I've got no chance in hell in fitting in I'll just tell the person trying to put me there that I'm a fat chick, and its not going to happen. They tend to sputter a bit. 

Plus sized is more polite, goes down easier when used in public, is not likely to offend. 

Although given the choice, I'd prefer to just be called Zaftig particularly since the origins of the word are a sort of slang for "Juicy".... I can live with being called plump and juicy - who doesn't like that?


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## landshark (Oct 23, 2014)

Skye23 said:


> I have a tendency to call myself a fat chick, although I suspect its mostly due to the fact that using that term seems to switch to uncomfortableness in a situation from me to the other party. So if I'm offered a chair I know I'll break, or a booth I've got no chance in hell in fitting in I'll just tell the person trying to put me there that I'm a fat chick, and its not going to happen. They tend to sputter a bit.



I think a lot have that as a defense mechanism on some level. A lot of people tend to be their own worst critics. As such they are often harder on themselves than they should be. (Then we have those who are completely void of self-criticism. I'd argue we've seen an example of that on this very thread. These are not not hard enough on themselves and often lack the ability to think critically of their own flaws. A healthy balance between self-critique and self-worth is a good thing.) My wife didn't like being referred to as a "fat chick" but often referred to herself as such. She is definitely her own worst critic, but will become defensive if an outsider levies against her the same critiques she levies at herself. 



Skye23 said:


> Plus sized is more polite, goes down easier when used in public, is not likely to offend.



I think plus sized is one of the better terms. It is not without its problems, though. When I hear the term, I immediately picture clothing items at Lane Bryant, where my 5'4" wife has often expressed frustration with designers of plus sized clothes because "not all fat chicks are 5'10" and taller!"

The term to me conveys images of tall women with larger features. I dated one briefly years ago. She was over 6' tall and had big everything. Big think torso, arms, hips, butt, boobs bigger than I knew what to do with! She also wore heels when she and I were out and about so the size disparity was greatly pronounced. Shorter girls I've dated have said plus size applies to taller women. 

I'm not sure if there is a rule written somewhere formalizing this claim, but the designers at Lane Bryant seem to agree.



Skye23 said:


> Although given the choice, I'd prefer to just be called Zaftig particularly since the origins of the word are a sort of slang for "Juicy".... I can live with being called plump and juicy - who doesn't like that?



Just saying plump and juicy will get my mind racing. It's quite sexy actually.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Oct 23, 2014)

Ruby Ripples said:


> A friend of mine referred to me as "stout". It made me feel like a barrel, lol.
> 
> Fat is fine for me!


I hate that too....it seems more like a word that would be appropriate to use to describe a man.....because of the imagery it invokes. Doesn't seem fitting/flattering to the feminine form. 



bigmac said:


> "Big" or "Very Big" is about as good as it gets if you have to discreetly describe someone's physical appearance.
> 
> Some folks don't even try to be discreet -- when my wife delivered our third daughter her hospital chart described her as elderly and obese.



I hate the word OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOObese.....any word to describe fat that has a big round OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO in it just seems wrong to me. 
Didn't say I was logical....was just asked what I like/prefer



bluetech said:


> I prefer to use the term 'plus size'. It is a common term that everyone understands, but isn't actually a euphemism like some other terms in common use like 'curvy'. It simply states that they are of a size that is greater than some other size, yet using the word 'plus' implies that the size in question is a positive thing, as opposed to terms like overweight that imply that the person is 'over' the weight that they 'should be'.



Plus size- I like that term...have used it myself....but mainly as a descriptor for women because it always makes me think of the plus sized section of a store.

@happily married - yeah I have that same problem with Lane Bryant-stuff being too damn long on my short roundish body


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## Ohio Lady (Oct 23, 2014)

I think this depends on the person using the word and how they are using it to the person they are talking to and how the person takes what they are saying. Being called fat and big among other names growing up, Some people suffer from low self esteem over these words due to be grown up to feel bad when they are said. I was one of those people who felt this way for a long time than a person (who I won't mention) talked to me and made me feel important, when they seen full length pictures they said I was beautiful.. I didn't see myself that way for a long time. Sometimes a person can make a huge difference in your life to make you see that BIG can be beautiful.. being a BBW is something to be proud of and this person did 5+ years ago and still does today when I talk to them. There are times I can be at a doctors office and hear two little kids talking about me and I can hear one say Wow she is fat! I smile at them and think those children have been taught that it is alright to make fun of people who like different than they look.. People talk about being a racist because of the color of a person's skin but that is how it use to feel when I was called fat.. degrading, hurtful, painful.. but again those words are just words like skinny, plump, tall, short, small and it really depends on the tone you are called these in and the person using them and how they are being used. We have to remember that none of us are exactly alike and somewhere we all have flaws even if we don't want to admit it.. I will be the first to admit I have many flaws so I would never say things to hurt anyone intentionally as I am sure most in here wouldn't. I was raised "old school" if you don't have nothing good to say don't say it" and also to treat others and talk to them the way I want to be treated and the way I want to be talked to.. When I describe myself I say I am "pleasantly plump" yeah yeah it means the same as big or fat but it isn't as harsh and doesn't hurt as being called fat does. Just my opinion and everyone has one..


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## phelan4022 (Oct 23, 2014)

*sighs heavily* I just lost a long post to some random, accidental keystrokes. I really need to purchase a desk top computer. Please humor me as I recap my thoughts.

To answer the original poster: when men ask me what I prefer, I say big women. If asked to clarify, I will use the term fat. It is a perfect descriptor, in that sense. When I discuss my attractions with women, I use terms like full figured, voluptuous, succulent, dangerously curvaceous, etc. If the conversation takes a serious turn, I'll bring up the historical preference for curvaceous women, citing classic aesthetics and terms like Rubenesque or Zaftig. Plump is an excellent word as well, it has virtually no common negative connotations and it carries a sense of fullness and roundness that I find particularly evocative.

Okay, to chime in on the size acceptance and use of the word "fat." The staunch proponents of it's sole use have merit to their argument, with well cited points of reference. However, I only use the word "fat" unilaterally after my audience has full knowledge that the word carries no negative and only positive connotations. I feel that authoritarian use of the word "fat" to those unacquainted with or new to the body positivity scene can be detrimental and even give fodder to those who seek to label us as deviant fetishists. Now, we should never live based on those who would say or think the worst of us. I do believe that tact and diplomacy are the most effective tools in advancing our cause. On an even deeper and more significant level, if we simply live by the example that, to us, fat is just a descriptor and even holds positive connotations, we will do far more good than any amount of boisterous, albeit well meant, yelling. For instance, sometimes with casual friends or coworkers, I won't even use descriptive terms. I'll tell a full figured coworker, "you look great today." Or, "those jeans look good on you." Or any number of other small but positively accumulative compliments that have nothing whatsoever to do with a size descriptor. This method makes it inherently positive that their size is a factor in the compliment without ever having to say it. I believe that it is through these living, daily examples of our body positivity that we can do the greatest benefit to our friends and our society. My hero once told me, "Be the man other men want to be." Live by example. Nothing is more powerful than that.


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## superodalisque (Oct 24, 2014)

phelan4022 said:


> *sighs heavily* I just lost a long post to some random, accidental keystrokes. I really need to purchase a desk top computer. Please humor me as I recap my thoughts.
> 
> To answer the original poster: when men ask me what I prefer, I say big women. If asked to clarify, I will use the term fat. It is a perfect descriptor, in that sense. When I discuss my attractions with women, I use terms like full figured, voluptuous, succulent, dangerously curvaceous, etc. If the conversation takes a serious turn, I'll bring up the historical preference for curvaceous women, citing classic aesthetics and terms like Rubenesque or Zaftig. Plump is an excellent word as well, it has virtually no common negative connotations and it carries a sense of fullness and roundness that I find particularly evocative.
> 
> Okay, to chime in on the size acceptance and use of the word "fat." The staunch proponents of it's sole use have merit to their argument, with well cited points of reference. However, I only use the word "fat" unilaterally after my audience has full knowledge that the word carries no negative and only positive connotations. I feel that authoritarian use of the word "fat" to those unacquainted with or new to the body positivity scene can be detrimental and even give fodder to those who seek to label us as deviant fetishists. Now, we should never live based on those who would say or think the worst of us. I do believe that tact and diplomacy are the most effective tools in advancing our cause. On an even deeper and more significant level, if we simply live by the example that, to us, fat is just a descriptor and even holds positive connotations, we will do far more good than any amount of boisterous, albeit well meant, yelling. For instance, sometimes with casual friends or coworkers, I won't even use descriptive terms. I'll tell a full figured coworker, "you look great today." Or, "those jeans look good on you." Or any number of other small but positively accumulative compliments that have nothing whatsoever to do with a size descriptor. This method makes it inherently positive that their size is a factor in the compliment without ever having to say it. I believe that it is through these living, daily examples of our body positivity that we can do the greatest benefit to our friends and our society. My hero once told me, "Be the man other men want to be." Live by example. Nothing is more powerful than that.



I can get with that.

I am always very clear that I feel fat is a positive thing before I start using it around people who are not used to it being used in that sense. I wouldn't advocate people using it without establishing the ground rules either.

I totally agree that you don't have to use size at all and you don't need a descriptor to tell someone they are attractive etc... I think that is when/how people get into trouble when they talk about things that are none of their business. talking about somebody's body at all at work can get you fired. talking about somebody's body without knowing them or having some kind of a relationship with them is pretty backward. I think your way is very positive because it puts everyone of every size in the same category and no one is described re: body characteristics or some weird side stepping creation. 

I think what you are talking about is that a woman's body is her private space that no one is invited into without her invitation. you can never go wrong with that. some people actually hate all of the euphemisms much more than the word fat. I know a lot of people think they are being kind but there are just as many people who find those replacement words repugnant as well and these are people not in the fat community. mainly because they tend to sound patronizing. it sounds like someone is saying: " being fat is ugly so we are going to slide in another word so you won't feel so bad about yourself because after all you are unattractive."


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## luvemlarge90 (Oct 24, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> fat is fine with me. it's like saying i have brown eyes which i do. when you hesitate or make negative associations it feels like something is wrong with being fat. for me it makes about as much sense as my getting mad because someone said i was african american. i have NOTHING to ashamed of. it's a problem to always be orienting yourself through the eyes of a negative other. it might be healthier to get rid of all of that anti fat double consciousness.




You nailed it! I was going to say something similar, but you worded it pretty well.


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## landshark (Oct 24, 2014)

Ohio Lady, I am so glad you found a friend who helped you change the way you see yourself. While we should seek to see our own value without validation from others, sometimes we do need a push in the right direction. I'm glad someone gave you one!

Phelan, I think you and I would probably enjoy discussing this over a beer. You made a great post and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts even though you had to type it twice. Ironically enough, I had to do this post twice because I thought I posted a reply earlier today but apparently did not. 

Like you, I eventually learned to avoid mentioning size and gave compliments the same way you would give any other person. I started off thinking a girl would want to hear reassurances I loved them as they were, even at their weight. While that may be true, for most I also learned the way to go about this was not to mention their weight. At all. It was what it was, and a pretty girl is a pretty girl at any weight. Sometimes the subject of weight came up, but I eventually figured out to let her be the one to raise the topic. Many did. Some genuinely wanted to know why I was interested in "fat girls." It was trial and error dealing with those types of questions, but I think I eventually got it right.


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## phelan4022 (Oct 25, 2014)

happily_married said:


> Ohio Lady, I am so glad you found a friend who helped you change the way you see yourself. While we should seek to see our own value without validation from others, sometimes we do need a push in the right direction. I'm glad someone gave you one!
> 
> Phelan, I think you and I would probably enjoy discussing this over a beer. You made a great post and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts even though you had to type it twice. Ironically enough, I had to do this post twice because I thought I posted a reply earlier today but apparently did not.
> 
> Like you, I eventually learned to avoid mentioning size and gave compliments the same way you would give any other person. I started off thinking a girl would want to hear reassurances I loved them as they were, even at their weight. While that may be true, for most I also learned the way to go about this was not to mention their weight. At all. It was what it was, and a pretty girl is a pretty girl at any weight. Sometimes the subject of weight came up, but I eventually figured out to let her be the one to raise the topic. Many did. Some genuinely wanted to know why I was interested in "fat girls." It was trial and error dealing with those types of questions, but I think I eventually got it right.



I'm a bit more inclined to scotch, but I have recently found some beers that I enjoy. A local brewery, Iron Horse, makes a beer called Irish Death. Quite tasty. I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I tend to sit back a bit and then give my two bits only to subjects I feel are quite poignant. So, kudos to you for starting a robust conversation.


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## phelan4022 (Oct 25, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> I can get with that.
> 
> I am always very clear that I feel fat is a positive thing before I start using it around people who are not used to it being used in that sense. I wouldn't advocate people using it without establishing the ground rules either.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I'm glad we can come to an agreement. You elaborated on my premise quite beautifully.


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## FatAndProud (Oct 27, 2014)

I won't let words take my dignity away  

Fat is a wonderful, simple descriptor. As a fat woman, I find it appropriate. To call me anything other than fat is only offering comfort to the skinny folk that are afraid to catch the fatz or the fat people in denial. I don't care for their comfort  I'm already an eye sore to them, let me mind-fuck them further.


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## penguin (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm fat. I'm fine with being called fat. I talk about getting clothes from the fat girl store. 

I think it's better to reclaim fat as an adjective than to keep it as a judgement.


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## superodalisque (Oct 28, 2014)

FatAndProud said:


> I won't let words take my dignity away
> 
> Fat is a wonderful, simple descriptor. As a fat woman, I find it appropriate. To call me anything other than fat is only offering comfort to the skinny folk that are afraid to catch the fatz or the fat people in denial. I don't care for their comfort  I'm already an eye sore to them, let me mind-fuck them further.



so nice say it twice!

the truth is our dignity


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## landshark (Oct 28, 2014)

FatAndProud said:


> I won't let words take my dignity away
> 
> Fat is a wonderful, simple descriptor. As a fat woman, I find it appropriate. To call me anything other than fat is only offering comfort to the skinny folk that are afraid to catch the fatz or the fat people in denial. I don't care for their comfort  I'm already an eye sore to them, let me mind-fuck them further.



I've told you this before, but I'll say it again now. I love your approach. Fearless! Thank you for adding your thoughts to the discussion here!


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## dblbellybhm (Oct 28, 2014)

penguin said:


> I'm fat. I'm fine with being called fat. I talk about getting clothes from the fat girl store.
> 
> I think it's better to reclaim fat as an adjective than to keep it as a judgement.



I totally agree. I will use the adjective fat to describe myself or in conversation with others about myself. I feel it gives me "ownership". I'm not ashamed of being fat. In general I won't use the term "fat" to describe another person more out of respect for that persons feelings and not wanting to be hurtful if I do not know for sure how they feel about the term. 

There was a time when I would not tuck in my shirts thinking it made me look thin! Seems crazy to me now. My hope is that in embracing the adjective, overtime it will be less stigmatizing.


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## Blockierer (Oct 29, 2014)

FatAndProud said:


> I won't let words take my dignity away
> 
> Fat is a wonderful, simple descriptor. As a fat woman, I find it appropriate. To call me anything other than fat is only offering comfort to the skinny folk that are afraid to catch the fatz or the fat people in denial. I don't care for their comfort  I'm already an eye sore to them, let me mind-fuck them further.





penguin said:


> I'm fat. I'm fine with being called fat. I talk about getting clothes from the fat girl store.
> 
> I think it's better to reclaim fat as an adjective than to keep it as a judgement.


Wonderful statements of confident ladies. 
Unfortunately i cannot rep you.


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## superodalisque (Oct 29, 2014)

the story of Walmart and the fat girl costumes kinda go right along with this thread. it's interesting seeing it play out and where people fall along what they think of the label. I've read a lot of comments and it seems people who are both pro and anti fat seem to say just call a spade a spade. what do you think the community should support in a situation like this? 

I think it really displays a serious conflict between SA ideals and being "kind" and avoiding the word fat. if someone says you can't say fat girl's costumes because it's bad how can you explain in the same breath that being fat is nothing to be ashamed of?


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## landshark (Oct 30, 2014)

It is a matter of tact. Have you ever had to tell your boss they were wrong about something? I've had to. It's not an insult to tell someone he/she is wrong. In fact, a worthwhile boss will appreciate it because it will help him/her to shift to a better decision. But it's all in delivery. If you can say it in a way that is polite, do so. 

Also, your question again ignores the validity of why I asked this question to start with. Fixing this is a two-pronged assault. Or you can look at it as offensive and defensive. Defensively, we have people like you and others who take ownership for the word "fat" and refuse to let people use it as an insult. It's defensive because it applies internally to you, but may not be and probably isn't universally accepted by others. Still, I applaud this approach, and may even be in this group if I had not consistently experienced aversion to the word throughout my dating life and marriage.

Offensively it is vital to take to the public the notion that it is not okay to excoriate people based on their weight. It is still socially acceptable to do this, and that is something I'd like to see gradually change to the degree where it is a given only ignorant and unrefined continue to do so. Much the same way racial or homophobic slurs have gone from acceptable to not acceptable.


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## superodalisque (Oct 31, 2014)

happily_married said:


> It is a matter of tact. Have you ever had to tell your boss they were wrong about something? I've had to. It's not an insult to tell someone he/she is wrong. In fact, a worthwhile boss will appreciate it because it will help him/her to shift to a better decision. But it's all in delivery. If you can say it in a way that is polite, do so.
> 
> Also, your question again ignores the validity of why I asked this question to start with. Fixing this is a two-pronged assault. Or you can look at it as offensive and defensive. Defensively, we have people like you and others who take ownership for the word "fat" and refuse to let people use it as an insult. It's defensive because it applies internally to you, but may not be and probably isn't universally accepted by others. Still, I applaud this approach, and may even be in this group if I had not consistently experienced aversion to the word throughout my dating life and marriage.
> 
> Offensively it is vital to take to the public the notion that it is not okay to excoriate people based on their weight. It is still socially acceptable to do this, and that is something I'd like to see gradually change to the degree where it is a given only ignorant and unrefined continue to do so. Much the same way racial or homophobic slurs have gone from acceptable to not acceptable.



I dunno. I never thought of your wife as being fat. she is pretty much the American average. could that be why she doesn't like being called fat -- because she isn't ? a lot of people called fat and plus size in America are just the average 14/16/18. I don't think they should allow people to call them fat. it's an exaggeration.


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## landshark (Oct 31, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> I dunno. I never thought of your wife as being fat. she is pretty much the American average. could that be why she doesn't like being called fat -- because she isn't ? a lot of people called fat and plus size in America are just the average 14/16/18. I don't think they should allow people to call them fat. it's an exaggeration.



She isn't now. It's been a slow process for her, but it isn't uncommon for people who lose a lot of weight to experience a mental lag. They still think of themselves as "fat" when they're really not. My wife has just recently awakened to the idea she isn't "fat" anymore. 120+ pounds ago she still was, and even though she knew it, she did not want people showing her a lack of courtesy by calling her fat. It's a personal preference, I suppose.

PS: At her peak weight or now, she is an absolute doll! I don't want to pretend to have the perfect marriage, but I do want to convey my sense of admiration for my wife. It takes a complete lifestyle overhaul to accomplish what she's accomplished. It will take unyielding discipline to continue her progress. Very few people actually have to experience something like this, and therefore cannot relate. They just want to be able to assume idiotic stereotypes that "fat people are stupid, lazy, and full of excuses" because they need an outlet for their scorn. This is a big part of why I would like to see us slowly change public perception.


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## superodalisque (Oct 31, 2014)

happily_married said:


> She isn't now. It's been a slow process for her, but it isn't uncommon for people who lose a lot of weight to experience a mental lag. They still think of themselves as "fat" when they're really not. My wife has just recently awakened to the idea she isn't "fat" anymore. 120+ pounds ago she still was, and even though she knew it, she did not want people showing her a lack of courtesy by calling her fat. It's a personal preference, I suppose.
> 
> PS: At her peak weight or now, she is an absolute doll! I don't want to pretend to have the perfect marriage, but I do want to convey my sense of admiration for my wife. It takes a complete lifestyle overhaul to accomplish what she's accomplished. It will take unyielding discipline to continue her progress. Very few people actually have to experience something like this, and therefore cannot relate.  They just want to be able to assume idiotic stereotypes that "fat people are stupid, lazy, and full of excuses" because they need an outlet for their scorn. This is a big part of why I would like to see us slowly change public perception.



well if she isn't fat anymore she shouldn't want people to call her something that she is not. it only makes sense. I wouldn't want someone calling me shinny because I'm not that. 

the only way to change public perceptions it to change our perceptions of ourselves first. if we don't believe the best in ourselves no one else will either. 

the worst things I've seen for fat people's self esteem is often mainly things I've seen on this forum. people post all of this stuff about how fat people can't go to college can't have a career, can't get married, are always poor. when people can't have their way they insult people just the same as any fat phobic dufus on the street. they keep focusing on outsiders and weirdo sadistic online commenters, not even making any space for the normal people out in society who like us and love us-- and there are many. i'm not the only one who is tired of the negativity from the inside including people who act as though enabling people to run away from being fat is a healthy thing. 

we're trying to encourage people. isn't it about time people finally got with the program and let fat folk let go of all of that useless annoying shit.


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## one2one (Nov 1, 2014)

happily_married said:


> Defensively, we have people like you and others who take ownership for the word "fat" and refuse to let people use it as an insult.
> 
> Offensively it is vital to take to the public the notion that it is not okay to excoriate people based on their weight.



Exactly. Thank you for articulating that so well.


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## Skye23 (Nov 2, 2014)

happily_married said:


> When I hear the term, I immediately picture clothing items at Lane Bryant, where my 5'4" wife has often expressed frustration with designers of plus sized clothes because "not all fat chicks are 5'10" and taller!"
> 
> The term to me conveys images of tall women with larger features. I dated one briefly years ago. She was over 6' tall and had big everything. Big think torso, arms, hips, butt, boobs bigger than I knew what to do with! She also wore heels when she and I were out and about so the size disparity was greatly pronounced. Shorter girls I've dated have said plus size applies to taller women.
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a rule written somewhere formalizing this claim, but the designers at Lane Bryant seem to agree.



I'm 5'3 in my Sketchers (which add height). Lane Bryant and I only get along from the waist up. I still mourn the passing of Fashion Bug who had jeans that would fit me. I bought all I could when they folded and actively look for my size on Ebay to get spare gently used or new pairs in the style I liked.


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## landshark (Nov 2, 2014)

Skye23 said:


> I'm 5'3 in my Sketchers (which add height). Lane Bryant and I only get along from the waist up. I still mourn the passing of Fashion Bug who had jeans that would fit me. I bought all I could when they folded and actively look for my size on Ebay to get spare gently used or new pairs in the style I liked.



I remember Fashion Bug. I had a girlfriend who was 5'3" and weight about 350 pounds. She loved that store. She only shopped at Lane Bryant for bras and panties. Sometimes she would bring me with her and let me pick out which ones I wanted to see her in. Ironically enough, this same girl rarely even wore underwear.  My wife also used to bring me Lane Bryant shopping and let me pick which panties I wanted to see her in. :smitten:


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## wrestlingguy (Nov 2, 2014)

We have these descriptive words.......tall, short, thin, fat. Interesting how only the word fat (to a lesser extent short) have a negative connotation.

In the case of short vs. fat, it's rare that someone assigns aesthetic distaste, or claims an unhealthy life as a result of being short.

I believe the entire goal of fat acceptance should be that the word should simply be used as a descriptor, rather than have all of this hate and claims of pseudo science behind it every time the word is mentioned.

As others have said here, there's a fair chance that it may not happen, but it's certainly a noble cause, and well, you never know how much of the world you can change if you don't try.


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