# FA and fat people -- the potential perfect match



## Webmaster (Mar 8, 2011)

Bill Fabrey, the man who founded NAAFA (which then stood for National Association to Aid Fat Americans) in 1969 often told of the first meetings of the organization in Manhattan. He described how a group of fat women would come together and sit in a circle, and how a few men also attended the meeting, but they sat in the corners or along the wall. Those men obviously came to the meetings because they were interested in fatness and fat people. The fat women there mostly saw them as creepy and to be suspicious of.

It's almost half a century later, and in many ways nothing has changed. When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.

That's really sad. It's also one of the main reasons why I started Dimensions all those decades ago, to help fat people and their admirers learn about each other and find each other. I have always felt that as long as there are fat people and those who seek and admire them, bringing those groups together made for a potential match made in heaven. And I still feel that way. 

There is a reason why we are the way we are, why we are born a certain way or grow up to be a certain way. And there is a reason why we seek for someone special and have visions and dreams of that someone to fill the void and want in our lives. The big tragedy here simply is that FAs want and seek a human quality that is, in general, not considered attractive. So those who do consider fatness attractive feel/are made to feel that they are weird for wanting something that is considered bad by society. And those who are fat and hate being fat look with suspicion on those who find them attractive, and the last thing they want is to be reminded of the part of themselves that they hate.

So it's a case of wish-for-something (FAs) versus hate-to-be-that-something (fat people). And that makes for the "How dare you find me physically attractive! You are weird!" we see all too often. That's so sad as this denial of oneself, this self hatred, is the source of much misery where happiness could be, with or without a partner.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 8, 2011)

While I agree with you that what you've written is indeed a sad waste of time for both FAs and BBW/BHM's (i.e., suspicion and societal castigation), I don't think it is a complete picture, Conrad. 

I agree with you -- and others, who have stated that there is nothing wrong with an attraction to body parts, sizes, preferences for this or that or the other thing. I have them (tall, dark, reed thin, accent) and I understand that part of myself so absolutely do not begrudge others their preferences, whatever they may be.

I make a distinction between a preference and a fetish, though. While I can absolutely understand the emotional need behind a fetish, it is not something that I could accept in a personal relationship. I have my own reasons for this, and believe me, it's not a trait that I can control, either. I equate fetishism with objectification. I also have concerns that nobody could possibly ever live up, long-term, to this kind of standard. I'd think that the relationship would be doomed to fail, for example, if my partner needed me fat and I became thin due to illness, advanced age, or even via personal choice. 

I am not suggesting that FAs are fetishists. I absolutely know that this is not the case for many, even most. Unfortunately though, there is a certain percentage who do identify as FA and this is what would concern me about seeking out a relationship with someone who identifies FA. It wouldn't STOP me -- I would just be more cautious in getting to know that person, and would clarify that my fat (or boobs, or blonde hair, or for that matter my middle-aged spread or liver spots ) is an exciting, enticing element of attraction and not the be-all-to-end-all. 

I hope I've made some sense; I know I live in my head more in relation to issues like this, and it's not always easy for me to explain myself succintly. I think some people read this and immediately think "She's saying FAs are EBBBBBILLLLL FETISHISTS" and that's not what I believe at all. I believe, personally, that there's a shoe for every foot -- even among those who do have a particular fetish, so long as there is also honesty on all sides. 

I'm responding only because my own hang-up, when I see posts like this, are that I see sweeping generalizations (perhaps where none are even intended). I don't hate my body, and I don't think it's at all strange that a man would find it attractive. I did feel this way, to some extent, when I was younger -- but that had less to do with my body size (I felt this way even when I was thin) and more to do with my own baggage/insecurities. What I've learned is that most men aren't the shallow creatures we assume them to be, using Cosmo and Vogue and mainstream media as our examples. They are as accepting of our imperfections as we are of theirs, generally speaking. Most seem to actually prefer women with at least some curves/padding. In my personal experience, my husband has been just fine with every pound gained and lost and gained again. My sisters' husbands are just as in love with them as they were when they married the much thinner versions. I've never really had a relationship -- personal, friendly, familial, or otherwise -- in which I've experienced harsh male judgment about body size. 

In fact, what *has* bothered my husband in relation to my weight has only been MY unhappiness, whining, wishing I could lose this or that or do away with this imperfection, smooth that one out, etc.


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Bill Fabrey, the man who founded NAAFA (which then stood for National Association to Aid Fat Americans) in 1969 often told of the first meetings of the organization in Manhattan. He described how a group of fat women would come together and sit in a circle, and how a few men also attended the meeting, but they sat in the corners or along the wall. Those men obviously came to the meetings because they were interested in fatness and fat people. The fat women there mostly saw them as creepy and to be suspicious of.
> 
> It's almost half a century later, and in many ways nothing has changed. When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.
> 
> ...



Honestly Conrad, I think DIMs is awesome and it's done and continues to do great work - but sadly DIMs, NAAFA etc. and the Internet itself arrived about 20 or 30 years too late to prevent fat-hatred and the misery-industry becoming so completely embedded in Western culture / media / gov't that it's perceived by the masses as an eternal verity. And is internalized by almost all of its victims too.

It's been the last ten years or so that have been absolutely extraordinary in the exponential growth of the misery-industry. The break point was when the fuckers managed to infiltrate WHO etc. so well that they were able to get all the BMI (Basically Meaningless Index) cut-off lines redefined*. Once they did this millions were instantly categorised "over"weight (THE category of people who LIVE LONGEST btw!) and "obese" *without gaining an ounce!*

(*Honourable mention goes to Linda Bacon's mentor - whose name I forget atm - for being the sole dissenting voice of sanity on that board!)

Once the misery-industry realised the sheeple would happily swallow that blatant con - the jig was up and they steamrollered Western culture en masse. I remember reading somewhere that fat-hatred / starve yourself messages in the media were up from tens of instances per week ten years ago, to thousands now.

So, the bummer is that in order to pull someone out of that mindset you virtually have to get them to reject the entire "Matrix" - everything they've ever seen, read or heard. And most people really, really love the blue pill.

Still, let's keep on plugging away. Maybe a few more people will find some happiness against all the odds. That's well worth fighting for!


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## joswitch (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh, and the "love me DESPITE my physical self" meme is probably one of the most poisonous anti-human ideas that ever took to un-life, whilst seeming so perfectly charming on the surface.

Grrrrr.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 8, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Oh, and the "love me DESPITE my physical self" meme is probably one of the most poisonous anti-human ideas that ever took to un-life, whilst seeming so perfectly charming on the surface.
> 
> Grrrrr.


 
Only because you think that people are saying "DESPITE" when in fact they are probably actually saying "AND". 

Who WOULDN'T want to be with a partner who worshipped every inch of his/her body? Given a choice of worship or tolerance, I'll choose the former, thanks. 

But if his need to worship included an absolute requirement that I remain fat, or blonde, or young, or even that I must (MUST!) wear stilettos and a raincoat to bed every night ... I'll take option #3. Alone, with a good vibrator


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## The Orange Mage (Mar 8, 2011)

Yeah, it was a little soul-crushing when the very-young me realized that my late-elementary-school dreams of "Finding a cute, super chubby girl to live happily ever after" was going to be way way harder than I originally thought.

Doesn't help that I'm cursed as a fetishy-type FA with weight gain fantasies and yadda yadda, etc.

I don't feel good as an FA. I feel good as a person, though, so let's go with that.


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## musicman (Mar 8, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> It's almost half a century later, and in many ways nothing has changed. When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.
> 
> That's really sad. It's also one of the main reasons why I started Dimensions all those decades ago, to help fat people and their admirers learn about each other and find each other. I have always felt that as long as there are fat people and those who seek and admire them, bringing those groups together made for a potential match made in heaven. And I still feel that way.



Yes, Conrad, it's sad that the forums seem to be filled with the same hatred and misunderstanding you had hoped to eradicate. But I believe Dimensions HAS helped a lot of people. (I know it's helped me; I met my wonderful wife through a Dimensions ad.) It's just that the ones you've helped are not the most prolific posters; they are too busy living their lives, thanks to the self-confidence (or the partner) they found here. Perhaps someday the others will find whatever it is they need, and stop attacking us and you. (Well, we can hope, can't we?  )


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## PeanutButterfly (Mar 8, 2011)

musicman said:


> Yes, Conrad, it's sad that the forums seem to be filled with the same hatred and misunderstanding you had hoped to eradicate. But I believe Dimensions HAS helped a lot of people. (I know it's helped me; I met my wonderful wife through a Dimensions ad.) It's just that the ones you've helped are not the most prolific posters; they are too busy living their lives, thanks to the self-confidence (or the partner) they found here. Perhaps someday the others will find whatever it is they need, and stop attacking us and you. (Well, we can hope, can't we?  )



Quoted for truth. I met my current SO here and it's been one of the best experiences of my life. Your website has helped tons of people but it can only do so much. People have to want to embrace the community before they can really appreciate all it has to offer.


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## ImSoDead (Mar 9, 2011)

Conrad, I think you're spot on. In the 15 or so years of Dimensions Online I've noticed an uptake in the number of fat people who could feel attractive and appreciate the attention from FA/FFAs. However in the last few years, it seems there's been an about face. In the past year alone I've seen quite a spike in the fat self-hatred therefore can't trust FA/FFAs attitude. I can't explain the uptake at all. It feels like we made a lot of progress and are losing so much of it now. I'm saddened by it.


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## butch (Mar 9, 2011)

You know what myth I thought growing up, and how much it hurt when I realised it wasn't going to come true? That a fat person and another fat person were the perfect match, and most fat people agreed with me. 

That fat people often are thin admirers was a harder thing for me to accept than the fact that there were non-fat people who were mostly or only attracted to fat people.


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## Jes (Mar 9, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> He described how a group of fat women would come together and sit in a circle, and how a few men also attended the meeting, but they sat in the corners or along the wall. Those men obviously came to the meetings because they were interested in fatness and fat people. The fat women there mostly saw them as creepy and to be suspicious of.
> .



Is it possible that this picture is misleading? That women sit in a group b/c we're socialized to be more chatty and engaged with one another and whatever, and that men are socialized to be quieter, less interactive and to engage less? Or maybe the men were uncomfortable in some way--not there for a meeting and talk and activism, but there to find a woman? I don't know that we can look at the room and where people are and assume from it that women thought men were creepy. Did all of the women stand up at every meeting and say: THESE GUYS ARE CREEPY? No..? Then... 

Look at most other social arenas--dances in high school (women standing together and talking, dudes holding up the walls); parties with partnered/married friends (women in the living room or kitchen, sharing stories or doing something, dudes around the tv, or in another room altogether). 

it's not at all uncommon for women to be chatting as a group and engaging with one another and men to be much more silent, solitary and on the periphery. I doubt that all the girls in my high school example found the guys creepy and I don't believe that the married women going to a friend's party found their husbands creepy.


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## Webmaster (Mar 9, 2011)

Jes said:


> Is it possible that this picture is misleading? That women sit in a group b/c we're socialized to be more chatty and engaged with one another and whatever, and that men are socialized to be quieter, less interactive and to engage less? Or maybe the men were uncomfortable in some way--not there for a meeting and talk and activism, but there to find a woman? I don't know that we can look at the room and where people are and assume from it that women thought men were creepy. Did all of the women stand up at every meeting and say: THESE GUYS ARE CREEPY? No..? Then...



Women definitely have different social patterns than men, but in this instance, the way Bill Fabrey told the story, it was definitely a case of women essentially huddling together in a circular wagon train because they considered the men creepy. 

That may or may not have been the case, but the story still is very much like what we're still witnessing today, all these years later: women huddling together with stories of those creepy men with their weird desires. As long as that attitude persists, the general impression will be that a lot of fat women are uptight and self-hating, and a lot of FAs weird and creepy. 

For the most part, neither is true, but to get to that truth, the community at large has to become far more tolerant, compassionate, open-minded and understanding. The constant female references of everything under the sun just being "wanking fodder" is hugely insulting to men, just as some unacceptable male behavior is hugely insulting to women. There simply is no reason to perpetuate that sort of thing, and certainly not here at Dimensions.


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## Emma (Mar 9, 2011)

If it hadn't been for this website I'd have spent my teenage years thinking I was a disgusting horrible person unworthy of love and attraction. Thanks to conrad I didn't spend it that way. I love FA, there are some horrid pervy ones (you know, like horrid pervy men who like thin women?) but there are also some amazing ones


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## WVMountainrear (Mar 9, 2011)

CurvyEm said:


> If it hadn't been for this website I'd have spent my teenage years thinking I was a disgusting horrible person unworthy of love and attraction. Thanks to conrad I didn't spend it that way. I love FA, there are some horrid pervy ones (you know, like horrid pervy men who like thin women?) but there are also some amazing ones



I wanted to piggyback what Em said...in fact, I've had this conversation with other Dimensions members...oddly, with a BHM who has had the same experience as a BBW like myself.

I joined Dims out of a sense of curiosity, mostly, but also to look for people to form bonds with out of a sense of comradery...I grew up fat, and although I am joyfully happy with myself both physically and otherwise, I do have some scars and sensitivities left over. It's nice to have other fat people in your life who identify with your everyday fat problems (like theatre seats or small booths in restaurants).  

But then there is also the romantic side of it that comes with having fat people and their admirers mingling around on one site. And at first you think, "This is great! Potential romatic partners will see past the fat to who I am and what I look like won't be important." But that idea is both naive and wrong...for a couple of reasons:

First, it's naive to think that people will "see past" what you look like. I actually agree with both Jos and Traci (although it often seems like they vehemently disagree, I don't think they're as far removed from each other's viewpoint as they think they are). Anyway, I think especially at the beginning of a relationship the physicality of it is important for both partners. And whether you like it or not, physical attraction IS a part of a healthy romantic relationship. Granted, those things for whatever reasons (even if just age) can and certainly will in some ways change and other aspects of the relationship will have more importance at different times, but sexual attraction is undoubtedly a component.

(Incidentally, this "see past" concept is also important to discredit in an activism context. In order to properly address and correct the "fat hatred" that there has been and continues to be in society, you can't pretend it's not important and choose to ignore it as a non-issue. I'm a fat woman. See my fat! Don't forget, I have to worry about theatre seats and small booths in restaurants. I have differences and because of those differences, people have seen me differently, which is normal. But different doesn't have to be bad. With this next comment, I'm not trying to draw a racial parallel or stir up a debate in this way, but it's like one of my professors in a racial law class said to us once: ignoring obvious differences and pretending everyone is equal will never gain equality. So, even if people went about their business and never said one negative word about overweight people, it won't change their minds internally (because it won't force them to think) and it sure as hell won't make them produce bigger seats. Seeing past something does no good for anyone.)

But, back to the relationships, the second issue is that this is a website FOR fat people and their admirers and supporters. Why should there be any expectation that fat doesn't matter when fat is why it exists? Certainly, there are those people Traci references who, rather than a preference, have a fetish. And I kind of share her view of that...although, I would love to find an FA who loves all of me (not just my fat but including my fat).  But there are those extremes everywhere: there are people who are utterly disgusted by the sight a fat person and there are people who get an instant rock hard boner on sight of a fat person. Most folks, though, I think fit in between. (Thank God.) Just like in life, Dims is a mixed bag of personalities and desires. (But unlike life, you don't have to deal with the disgusted portion of the population...again, thank God.) It's just about talking to people enough to figure out where they fit on the spectrum and whether they're a good fit for you (either in terms of being friends or in terms of potential romantic interest or on whatever terms you want). 

Em said it much more clearly and succinctly, and I probably could have just gotten away with a "well said," but I wanted to really chime in. I've only been at Dims a couple months, but it's been a very enlightening and enriching experience for me. Thank you for that, Conrad.


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> Only because you think that people are saying "DESPITE" when in fact they are probably actually saying "AND".
> 
> Who WOULDN'T want to be with a partner who worshipped every inch of his/her body? Given a choice of worship or tolerance, I'll choose the former, thanks.
> 
> But if his need to worship included an absolute requirement that I remain fat, or blonde, or young, or even that I must (MUST!) wear stilettos and a raincoat to bed every night ... I'll take option #3. Alone, with a good vibrator



Can't spread rep  But excellent post!


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## Rowan (Mar 9, 2011)

I do also want to agree with the others in saying that Conrad, you have done a fantastic job with this website and bringing people together. And that's why when I finally met you at a bash once, I was awe struck


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## Elfcat (Mar 10, 2011)

It seems like it needs to be brought out that creepiness often arises out of a mutually contradictory combination of hesitance and impatience, not knowing when to say what, when to do what, which often leads someone to go from skulking and acting unconfident to suddenly blurting out things or taking actions brazenly just to get past the hesitance. I think often men look at what other men do and the response they get, and conclude that the choice is either getting wound up in a spiral of second-guessing as to what the correct thing, the correct word, the correct time is, or plopping a whole cartload of stuff on the table all at once. It can seem hard to strike a balance between being too quiet or being overwhelming.

Until there is some revolutionary shift which wipes away the conditions which produce this dilemma, especially newcomers, and even old hands, among FAs will always have the question of "How do I tell the fat woman I like her, and make it clear it is ALL of her and not just the pretty face?" And even some pretty self-confident fat people will be asking themselves, "Why is this person making such a dissertation on what my flesh means?"

So we'll always be seeing some of that here. But I think that wrangling and contention is a natural part of how the conversation progresses to something more pleasant for all involved.


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## joswitch (Mar 10, 2011)

Oh I'm so glad you asked that Elfcat!

Not creepy = "whatever someone you find desirable is doing"

Creepy = "whatever someone you do not find desirable is doing."

Really, really creepy = "whatever someone you find repulsive is doing"


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## BlueBurning (Mar 11, 2011)

The tension that often seems to exist between the two groups does make some sense. On the one hand you have a group of individuals who have been told that due to their physical size they are not seen as physically attractive and that in order to attract a partner they need to change their physical appearance. On the other hand you have FAs who often have to come to grips with the fact their ideal mate does not mesh with modern societies view of beauty and deal with such issues which arise from this. Once the two groups meet you are bound to have some issues arise due to how each group has been socialized to view physical beauty and toss in some bad experiences for both sides and you wind up with some tension.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 11, 2011)

Well part of this has to do with what's appropriate. If I went to a NAAFA meeting to talk to other fat people about boycotting an airline that made you pay for an extra seat or to assemble and distribute a list of fat-friendly restaurants, I would find it creepy and innappropriate if some thin men were hanging around just to find a date or hookup. 

If somebody logs onto Dims to talk about buying a car and says "Now that I'm 450 pounds my Nissan Sentra no longer fits because my belly rubs against the steering wheel" that person wants other 450+ posters to say what car they drive, they don't want an FA to say "Wow that's hot". If an FA finds it hot, that's totally normal but it's not OK to say so in that venue. I once worked with a caucasian male who apparently had never in like ten years hooked up with a caucasian female. I find it normal and appropriate and not weird at all to be attracted to another race; I would find it weird and creepy if he were out attending NAACP meetings or hanging around outside the Asian Students' Alliance meeting at a local college just to check out the women.

As FA's, it's inescapable that we have to look at the fact that being fat isn't going to be any more desirable simply because we exist. If you were going to list "sucky things about being fat" and the only thing on the list is "nobody is attracted to you" then the existence of FA's is a huge deal. Our existence though, doesn't eradicate too-small desks at school, lack of clothing stores, bullying, restaurant booths, potential health problems, or nagging relatives. 

It's fantastic and wonderful to be somebody's object of desire, and no doubt having that experience is life changing to some degree and a huge boost of self esteem. However I find it almost arrogant to believe that I or any other FA can affect somebody's happiness by merely being attracted to them.


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## superodalisque (Mar 11, 2011)

it would help a lot of there were more average kinds of things going, not totally centered on fat, on to relax people. there are other things besides the body. the body is beautiful and great and should be celebrated but in order for people to feel free in their bodies and comfortable with sharing them there has to be trust. how does trust happen? by building real relationships not based on one being the object of the other but by interacting with people in human ways that have nothing to do from their benefiting from you with no intention of knowing who you really are. how about just getting to know each other as people, including family and friends? when people get put into a sexualized environment its bound to create a lot of distrust , especially if the rest of who they are gets lost and other people never get to know that side of them. 

as for people seeming creepy, generally they only seem that way if they feel that way. unfortunately there are a lot of guys out there who seem to feel odd, creepy and ill at ease--and lets not forget that some of them like it. its natural for women to sense that in someone. if someone does not feel the need to explain himself and is comfortable with who he is, other people generally do as well. its not about fat women accepting awkwardness and making people comfortable but about people accepting themselves and being comfortable within themselves and who they are. i think the tension fat women feel mirrors the same self doubt men feel. if they feel a tension within themselves and worry about using a fat woman for her body while not being able to contend with the reality of her then naturally a woman will feel that in what he does, how he acts and what he says. you can't expect her to be comfortable with someone who may not be into her on all levels if thats what she wants for herself. its unfair to expect her to, especially in a world where she sees lots of fat women around her being comfortably loved likes its no big deal at all.


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## Blackjack (Mar 11, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> it would help a lot of there were more average kinds of things going on to relax people. there are other things besides the body. the body is beautiful and great and should be celebrated but in order for people to feel free in their bodies and comfortable with sharing them there has to be trust. how does trust happen? by building real relationships not based on one being the object of the other but by interacting with people in human ways that have nothing to do from their benefiting from you with no intention of knowing who you really are. how about just getting to know each other as people, including family and friends? when people get put into a sexualized environment its bound to create a lot of distrust , especially if the rest of who they are gets lost and other people never get to know that side of you.



If only there were some place on Dims filled with games and friendly banter, where someone could build relationships with others in a manner that's not as overtly sexual as the parts related to fat sexuality.


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## superodalisque (Mar 11, 2011)

Blackjack said:


> If only there were some place on Dims filled with games and friendly banter, where someone could build relationships with others in a manner that's not as overtly sexual as the parts related to fat sexuality.



i'm not talking about a little virtual section on dims but in real life over all. fat people need to live for real. that breaks down the suspicion more because it means that its not something that could be a a closeted thing for someone that only happens in someone's dark room at night in front of a screen where no one knows but them. its out in the open and in front of everyone. that makes a huge difference for fat people. 

fat people do notice if people only feel comfortable dealing with them away from the general public eye. a lot of suspicions would melt if they felt they could trust someone to be with them anywhere doing anything with everyone in society looking. its easy to be social long distance safe in a room where you can turn something on and off or in a cloistered protected group, but what about when the pressure of society is an issue? fat folks have had enough of the secret fatty and only at fat events kinds of things. they want someone who'll travel the the world with them and not just a tiny dark corner of it. the lounge is great but its not what i'm talking about. its such a tiny non committal part of the big world a fat person has to navigate--and its not real. trust is built on things that are real. and even there i don't see our families and non fat friends being invited so they can lean more about how to be more accepting of us, our viewpoints and our needs.


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## rubenesquehunny (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree with Conrad almost 100% along with some other posts....I do agree, Dims has opened my life up to so many people who are either like me(fat lol) or like people like me lol....and it has brought me a warmth already I just can't compare and I just wish I had discovered it earlier....with that being said, I think there is a problem with the conception of fetish and preference.  In Wikipedia (i know lol so scholarly) it says fetish-"the attribution of religious or mystical qualities to inanimate objects" which I am not!! I am not an inamimate object like a foot or shoe, I am a person who happens to be fat! Sexual preference-(same awesome source) " Sexual orientation is a social construct used to describe a pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, both genders, neither gender, or another gender" which is much more what sounds like what is between a fat person and those who are attracted to him/her.
The issue, I think, it that since FA'a really like fat, it is almost an objectification of the person the fat is attached to, BUT it isn't when you realized it is just part of the person's sexual preference (which is believed to be linked to sexual orientation btw). Would it be any different for a straight guy to grab his girls ass as it would be for a FA to grab his/her hunny's belly (as long as in both situations it is acceptable to both parties)? I know of FA's that cannot achieve or maintain an erection if the person they are with is not fat, just as some guy friends could never be sexually attracted to a big girl. I think comparing liking blonde hair to being a FA or FFA is flawed and can be harmful when you factor in how many posts you see of people speaking of realtionships they are only part fulfilled in due to the size of the partner.....sites like these are so needed to bring together people who are on the same page....just my 2 cents:happy:


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## kioewen (Mar 11, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Not creepy = "whatever someone you find desirable is doing"
> 
> Creepy = "whatever someone you do not find desirable is doing."
> 
> Really, really creepy = "whatever someone you find repulsive is doing"



Quoted for truth.


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## joswitch (Mar 12, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i'm not talking about a little virtual section on dims but in real life over all. fat people need to live for real. that breaks down the suspicion more because it means that its not something that could be a a closeted thing for someone that only happens in someone's dark room at night in front of a screen where no one knows but them. its out in the open and in front of everyone. that makes a huge difference for fat people.
> 
> fat people do notice if people only feel comfortable dealing with them away from the general public eye. a lot of suspicions would melt if they felt they could trust someone to be with them anywhere doing anything with everyone in society looking. its easy to be social long distance safe in a room where you can turn something on and off or in a cloistered protected group, but what about when the pressure of society is an issue? fat folks have had enough of the secret fatty and only at fat events kinds of things. they want someone who'll travel the the world with them and not just a tiny dark corner of it. the lounge is great but its not what i'm talking about. its such a tiny non committal part of the big world a fat person has to navigate--and its not real. trust is built on things that are real. and even there i don't see our families and non fat friends being invited so they can lean more about how to be more accepting of us, our viewpoints and our needs.



Hmmm, so you're bashing on the closet cases again?
Do you get a lot of the closeted turning up to these secret fat events? I've only been to a couple. I was put off BGP on account of it being a pain to get to and from, v. expensive and terrible bloody music.


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## Blockierer (Mar 12, 2011)

Two weeks ago my wife told a woman that she had found my ad on a dating-site for big people. This was very confusing for this woman, she said to me: " But you'r not chubby, I think you'r really not chubby." *lol*
What I want to express is, inspite of 40 years of size acceptance (e.g. NAAFA) it is still unbelievable for most people that guys exist who are attracted to fatness. 
And this society's ignorance of fat admiration is the cause of all these discussions in the Dimensions forums about what is fat admiration, a preference or fetish, is it ok to want exclusive a fat partner, does he/she love my fat or me, and so on. Therefore we'll need a site for FAs and fat people in future, too.


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## superodalisque (Mar 13, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Hmmm, so you're bashing on the closet cases again?
> Do you get a lot of the closeted turning up to these secret fat events? I've only been to a couple. I was put off BGP on account of it being a pain to get to and from, v. expensive and terrible bloody music.



i'm not bashing . we were talking about what fat people need to feel secure and i'm just saying, open, public, natural and real relationships have a whole lot to do with it. its positive reinforcement and confidence building. if someone in the closet can't provide that, thats their deal they have to manage and its not necessarily something a fat person needs to be concerned with. its not a fat person's responsibility to make anyone feel comfortable with their desires or to worry about why someone is so uncomfortable with being seen with them when they are trying for personal growth.

closeted people do actually turn up at events quite often. they can blend in and feel the focus isn't on them so it could be a good exercise for them in how to finally get out there. its can be sort of midway between in and out. but there are a few who never graduate from the event school. they are the people who are not seen with fat people they desire outside of those events or off campus, so to speak. its not bashing to say that happens. its just reality. so as much as dims forums helps to a certain level it can also lead to real disappointments and disillusionment when the reality doesn't always live up to expectations. that in and of itself leads to a lot of the suspicious attitudes. its really easy to say stuff on the forums but much harder to live it out in reality. just saying if its real and not virtual it has a lot more power to make people feel positively.

most of the events are kinda like that Jos. most people who run events know they have a captive audience of people who might not be comfortable elsewhere so they'll tolerate less effort than another social event might. the first year i went to vegas it was really nice with different themes and different music every night. so everyone always got to do something they really enjoyed and got to see what their friends enjoyed too. people had a lot of fun seeing what costumes people showed up in. i imagine it was a lot of work every year. now they have the same old club music every night and its more geared to hook ups than just having fun. in short, it got very boring if you depended on the event to do anything but sell porn. i think participation went down because it just got too expensive in this economy to be bored.


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## Webmaster (Mar 13, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> "its not a fat person's responsibility to make anyone feel comfortable with their desires."



"Stone cold" comes to mind. I mean, a partnership is all about supporting each other and making each other comfortable, loved and wanted. And we're treading on real thin ice when we begin preaching about "natural and real" relationships.


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## superodalisque (Mar 13, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> "Stone cold" comes to mind. I mean, a partnership is all about supporting each other and making each other comfortable, loved and wanted. And we're treading on real thin ice when we begin preaching about "natural and real" relationships.



being supportive is not the same as being comfortable with something. i am very supportive of my many closeted friends. but i can't make myself responsible for their feeling bad about their attraction. THEY know their discomfort isn't right. THEY are trying to get over it. why should i think its alright? i'll never be comfortable with the fact that they feel having a relationship with me or someone like me out in public is such a drag on their life. sorry but its not going to happen. thats why i can love them and can be encouraging but i won't be in a relationship with them. i can't and won't be fully comfortable with something that would be saying that something is wrong with me being fat. and even worse i can't reinforce the feeling with them that somehow what they feel is right.

it does nothing to help them if i agree that i am somehow socially substandard. if anything saying and acting as if there is nothing wrong with me, which there isn't, gives them more strength to do what they have to do. confidence and security in myself , i have noticed, is catching. i can't enable my friends when it comes to their struggle because it might lead to them staying unhappy and not living out in the open. and if i understand as a fat person that i and my body are not a legitimate reason for anyone to feel bad about their attraction to me then that means i can be strong enough and have good enough self esteem to be secure no matter how someone else feels about himself and his attraction. in that way i am not responsible for or to his reaction to my fat reality. i'm the only one responsible for how i feel about myself. 

when i say natural and real relationships i'm not talking about sexuality but relationships in the way of actually engaging with each other 100%. its not preaching when when people expect folks who are attracted to them or love them to show it. relationships are not something that only happens sometimes when its socially safe. its out in the open and public that we care for one another. if someone can't show that, no matter their sexuality, its very natural for them to be doubted. no one trusts anyone who doesn't live up to their rhetoric.

fat people can't feel it is somehow their fault that someone is in the closet. its not. usually people with that issue have problems in other areas of their life. their issue is mastering social fear. and that has nothing to do with the fact that some of us are fat. we shouldn't take it as though the closet is deserved because its not. its not deserved for the fat person or the person who adores someone who is fat.


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## JMNYC (Mar 13, 2011)

I have a take.

Last night I appeared on a bill at an Irish music festival with about 20 other performers, one after another, at a venue in Manhattan which grew increasingly packed as the night wore on. The woman who went on before me was but 19 years old and strikingly beautiful---meaning, in this context, symmetrical features, shiny black hair, glowing skin, curvy, feminine figure, and very sweet. All by herself, she was, too, no entourage. 

We both did our songs and hung out next to the stage watching the show, behind the rope separating the performers from the audience. Since it was a good-time, high energy Irish bash, we started dancing around separately, then she bumped into me, we smiled at each other and danced together, spinning around for one song, then went back to watching the show.

I looked up and saw 10 men in the audience at the front of the stage, all looking at this young woman, all of them with longing in their eyes, especially two men nearest us. 

The two men had an energy that said, "Please. Please notice me, young lady. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. You are so beautiful and I want to say hello. Instead, I am going to freeze, and stay over here. Perhaps after another beer." They also looked at me---"Why is she dancing with HIM? How did he accomplish that?" I knew that look---I have felt what I saw in their eyes. They weren't drunks or oddballs---they were grown men, some of them handsome---and they were paralyzed. Mesmerized, perhaps.

"Hello" takes every scrap of courage I have sometimes, and I assume it's the same for other men. How many times in my life have I approached a woman and she pretends she doesn't hear me or that I don't exist and I feel humiliated? A few. How long did it take me to say hello to that girl I silently adored in high school? (Answer: 2 years.) How long did it take me to ask my wife to marry me after I'd bought the ring, for fear she might say "No?" (6 months.) 

This is why men are in the corner, regardless of the weight factor. We've had our hearts broken and we're trying not to let it happen again. (Women get them broken, too, naturally.) We're in the corner trying to figure out what we might say if we went up to someone we were attracted to, something to say that won't result in a woman rolling her eyes and walking away, or her thinking we're creepy or weird. And we stand there thinking about it, and we get weirder and weirder! Finally we leave, sighing on the way out.

Sex and relationships--our families, our friends, our romances---are a deeply primal topic, complicated and ever-changing. Add fat admiration to that, and it gets even more complicated. 

But always interesting!


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## joswitch (Mar 14, 2011)

JMNYC said:


> I have a take.
> 
> Last night I appeared on a bill at an Irish music festival with about 20 other performers, one after another, at a venue in Manhattan which grew increasingly packed as the night wore on. The woman who went on before me was but 19 years old and strikingly beautiful---meaning, in this context, symmetrical features, shiny black hair, glowing skin, curvy, feminine figure, and very sweet. All by herself, she was, too, no entourage.
> 
> ...



Hah! Fools! It's easy! You got up and played! Ladies love the musicians! They *notice* us for a start! 

This is a big reason why I've not got anyone over here, there's no-where to bloody play! Thanks to the bloody mayor / police taking away all the live music licences.



> I knew that look---I have felt what I saw in their eyes. They weren't drunks or oddballs---they were grown men, some of them handsome---and they were paralyzed. Mesmerized, perhaps.
> *
> "Hello" takes every scrap of courage I have sometimes, and I assume it's the same for other men. * How many times in my life have I approached a woman and she pretends she doesn't hear me or that I don't exist and I feel humiliated? A few. How long did it take me to say hello to that girl I silently adored in high school? (Answer: 2 years.) How long did it take me to ask my wife to marry me after I'd bought the ring, for fear she might say "No?" (6 months.)
> 
> ...




^Yeah, we've all been there. The key to just going and saying "Hi" is to do it the first time the opportunity presents, don't wait and build up your hopes, don't think about it. Also, try not to give a shit whether you get blown off or not, don't stake any part of your self-esteem on it. It's almost always outside your control, assuming you don't vomit all over yourself of something. If she's aware of what's going on around her, she's probably already decided yay or nay in her head before you even approach. Relax. 

Way back when*, before I got with my first BBW gf and I just used to date pretty much whoever (which wasn't ideal, but what the hell) I always used to just "put the eyes out" and wait for "the look" in response. Once a girl looked at me *like that* all I had to do was walk over and say "hi" (once, not even that, hehehe) and it was ON. This was great! because once I learned to read the way a girl looked at me, I already knew "yes" or "no" before approaching. Woohoo!

(*when I was young, dumb and pretty)

Unluckily this FAILS with most BBWs in most social settings (pubs, clubs not BBW events) certainly in the UK, cos most of them assume that no-one fancies them and are not making eye contact with guys. Meanwhile the skinny girls are. 

Oh, although it was tough before, now that women have mobile phones with bloody cameras on them it's much, much worse - cos women spend a disproportionate amount of "eye time" in the pub / club fiddling with their phones, texting and taking pictures of each other every 10seconds. It's huge pain in the bum, if you're trying to catch someone's eye.

Oh, waiting for "the look" also fails epically when the girl is short sighted, and from a distance you just look like a fuzzy blob. Lolz!


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## superodalisque (Mar 18, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Hah! Fools! It's easy! You got up and played! Ladies love the musicians! They *notice* us for a start!
> 
> This is a big reason why I've not got anyone over here, there's no-where to bloody play! Thanks to the bloody mayor / police taking away all the live music licences.
> 
> ...



with a fat girl i think the thing that works the best is real acts of kindness. that makes them feel more secure. a look or a compliment often doesn't work on people who've been brainwashed into feeling like they aren't attractive. so for a fat woman the idea that you actually like them as a person can really get your foot in and open her up to more from you. unfortunately you guys are attracted to tough nuts to crack so you can not wait around for her to make all of the moves. you've gotta be bold if your not, get set to get passed by. people often seem to want to sleep with a fat girl but they don't often make the effort to actually be nice, so effort is everything. that means how you dress , what you say , what you do and how you do it.

also don't assume that every fat woman you meet is available, which in my experience, people often tend to. just because i don't splash my relationship all over my facebook or something doesn't mean i don't have one. a guy might not be ignored because he's not believed or found attractive but sometimes she is just otherwise engaged.


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## joswitch (Mar 18, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> with a fat girl i think the thing that works the best is real acts of kindness. that makes them feel more secure. a look or a compliment often doesn't work on people who've been brainwashed into feeling like they aren't attractive. so for a fat woman the idea that you actually like them as a person can really get your foot in and open her up to more from you. people often seem to want to sleep with a fat girl but they don't often make the effort to actually be nice. also don't assume that every fat woman you meet is available, which in my experience, people often tend to. a guy might not be ignored because he's not believed but sometimes she is just otherwise engaged.



Ah, you're missing my point. You're talking about how to get someone to open up to you AFTER they have noticed that you exist, and also about how to build / maintain rapport / trust.

I'm talking about BBWs being completely shut down as to the men around them, from the POV of attraction, in "normal" dating environments e.g. "normal" bars. She's not looking around like her skinny friends are.

A guy has to "socially bulldoze" in just to get her to look up from her damn phone, so he's going in without the "all clear" of the Look, or body language, and is therefore waaaaay more likely to get shot down.

It's the very initial "opening contact" that I'm talking about.


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## superodalisque (Mar 18, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Ah, you're missing my point. You're talking about how to get someone to open up to you AFTER they have noticed you, and also about how to build / maintain rapport.
> 
> I'm talking about BBWs being completely shut down as to the men around them, from the POV of attraction, in "normal" dating environments e.g. "normal" bars.
> She's not looking around like her skinny friends are.
> ...



nope, i'm talking about how you get them to notice you. its not exactly always going to be the same with fat girls as it is with everyone else all of the time. expecting them to react the way other women do at all times, to very subtle signs, might not necessarily work since in normal bars quite a few feel ignored and marginalized. they might think you're just like everyone else since no one walks around with a big sign saying "I'm an FA" on his chest. you forget that fat women might not always be sure of your signs. thats why you need to be really obvious in a polite way. its important for you to be generally kind as well because there are so many hoggers about these days lusting after fat women while pretending to their friends that its only a game. so if you go the gradual route she is more likely to get it. a few seconds and a look won't get you much of anywhere with a whole lot of people if you keep going that route. say hi. start a conversation no matter what she is doing with her phone. get her number. and most of all follow up. its no good saying you like her and letting her know you think she is pretty if you never call, keep in touch or ask her out. in order to really meet fat women, if you are very shy, you really must work at getting over that.


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## joswitch (Mar 19, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> nope, i'm talking about how you get them to notice you. its not exactly always going to be the same with fat girls as it is with everyone else all of the time. expecting them to react the way other women do at all times, to very subtle signs, might not necessarily work since in normal bars quite a few feel ignored and marginalized. they might think you're just like everyone else since no one walks around with a big sign saying "I'm an FA" on his chest. you forget that fat women might not always be sure of your signs. thats why you need to be really obvious in a polite way. its important for you to be generally kind as well because there are so many hoggers about these days lusting after fat women while pretending to their friends that its only a game. so if you go the gradual route she is more likely to get it. *a few seconds and a look *won't get you much of anywhere with a whole lot of people if you keep going that route.



In a bar or club that's all the time / focus you usually get, to establish that first "You are OK to come over and talk to me" signal, even when a girl IS looking around her / for a guy.



> *say hi. start a conversation no matter what she is doing with her phone.*



^THIS is the "social bulldozer". You are going in "cold" - she has not noticed you before, she has not preselected you. Any man approaching before eye-contact has been made has a much, much higher chance of being rejected straight away. Cos you are "butting in", you are more likely to be seen as a "botherer".

What's more you'll probably have to elbow your way through *a circle of skinny friends *- who will employ *extreme cock block* against you. From the POV of those skinny chicks their BBW friend is there to:
a) be their shoulder-to-cry-on / confidant to their drunken drama queening / attention whoring (looook at MEEEEEEE!)
b) security - when guys they don't want offer unwelcome attention in a pushy way
c) designated driver
d) make them look thinner by contrast
^that circle of skinny chicks resents ANY man who might threaten to occupy the attention of their BBW friend and thus leave them un-crutched to deal with their own egos / issues / messes / dramas.



> get her number. and most of all follow up. its no good saying you like her and letting her know you think she is pretty if you never call, keep in touch or ask her out. in order to really meet fat women, if you are very shy, you really must work at getting over that.



^Seriously. I am not a shy guy, and I find it tough going. The last time I tried the "social bulldozer" the BBW was quite happy to chat with me (in my second language, no less), but I got mass cockblocked by no less than four skinny "friends" of the BBW, they virtually dragged her out of the club!!!  

(I'd just like to take a moment to curse flash-camera-phones and their constant use. One girl took a pic of the two of us with such, and who ever looks good on 90% of those pics? and then seized the BBW - as far as I could make out she was making a huuuge deal that I have some grey hair. Fucksake.) 

It didn't help that my designated wingmen failed epically in the routine task of occupying the skinny girls attention. *sigh*

Anyhoo:

Face it SuperO, you're talking about how you like guys (that you're attracted to) to behave after the initial bar-contact is a done deal. You have ZERO experience of *being a man* trying to get / hold the romantic attention of a BBW in a badly-lit, noisy bar / pub / club while her skinny "friends" run a cockblock. 

It's brutal out there.


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## penguin (Mar 19, 2011)

joswitch said:


> Face it SuperO, you're talking about how you like guys (that you're attracted to) to behave after the initial bar-contact is a done deal. You have ZERO experience of *being a man* trying to get / hold the romantic attention of a BBW in a badly-lit, noisy bar / pub / club while her skinny "friends" run a cockblock.
> 
> It's brutal out there.



Sounds like those girls were bitches. My friends wouldn't stop me from talking to someone I wanted to talk to, though they'd check to see I was okay and was happy with the situation.


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## joswitch (Mar 19, 2011)

penguin said:


> Sounds like those girls were bitches.



There seems to be an oversupply of these, hovvering around the BBWs I'm interested in!:doh:



> My friends wouldn't stop me from talking to someone I wanted to talk to, though they'd check to see I was okay and was happy with the situation.


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## penguin (Mar 19, 2011)

joswitch said:


> There seems to be an oversupply of these, hovvering around the BBWs I'm interested in!:doh:



Maybe it's time to change it up! Go for someone different.

From the movie Straight Talk (with Dolly Parton):

'Dr.' Shirlee Kenyon: Its like your allergic to cornflakes so you start to buy different stuff like a can of peas but when you open up the can of the peas, inside cornflakes, so you pick a TV dinner and open it up and cornflakes.
Jack Russell: So what does that mean?
'Dr.' Shirlee Kenyon: The girls you go out with... outside all different packages but inside... cornflakes.


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## EvilPrincess (Mar 20, 2011)

I really need to ask that we get back on topic, FA and Fat People, FA/FFA perspective and how that is seen, felt, or otherwise in relation to the FA/FFA perspective. If you feel you have something to add from another vantage point, the Main Board would be good place for a thread. 

Thanks!


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## superodalisque (Mar 25, 2011)

joswitch said:


> In a bar or club that's all the time / focus you usually get, to establish that first "You are OK to come over and talk to me" signal, even when a girl IS looking around her / for a guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



your right, i'm NOT a man. and also i AM talking about how i like men to approach me. but then again, i AM a BBW--just trying to help out.


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## bigmac (Mar 27, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> ...
> 
> It's almost half a century later, and in many ways nothing has changed. When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.
> 
> ...



Actually I think things have changed quite a lot -- and for the better. When I was in high school in the late 70s and early 80s fat kids were total social outcasts (lucky I was in one of my sort of thin phases during those years). The fat girls didn't go to school dances or parties. The fattest girls were forced to were stretch polyester pants because there wasn't anything else available.

Fast forward thirty years and things have changed. My oldest daughter (21) has a very active social life despite being a large BBW -- she went to her prom and has no problem finding nice things to wear thanks to stores like Torrid that didn't exist thirty years ago. My second oldest daughter (16) is a bit chubby and likewise is very active socially -- its almost impossible to keep that girl home. Both of them have multiple male friends who are out FAs.

And I don't think my daughters are unique. When I'm at the mall or movie theater or just driving or walking around I see way more fat young people out with there friends and/or dates.

Things are far from perfect but overall it seems to me that things have improved for fat people (particularly fat girls and women) over the last thirty years.


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## TimeTraveller (Mar 27, 2011)

EvilPrincess said:


> I really need to ask that we get back on topic, FA and Fat People, FA/FFA perspective and how that is seen, felt, or otherwise in relation to the FA/FFA perspective. If you feel you have something to add from another vantage point, the Main Board would be good place for a thread.
> 
> Thanks!


I haven't posted for 2 or 3 months, but this might be worth sharing. After 31+ years of marriage and 45+ years since we met in second grade, there's no question in my mind that this FA found his perfect match and she happened to be a supersized woman. My wife and I just spent a few days in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The La Fonda hotel downtown has plenty of atmosphere but it's not very fat friendly. Elevators are few and far between, and there are stairs everywhere. Four steps here, eight steps there, very annoying on so many levels (literally). Naturally as a dedicated FA I look out for my wife's needs. So I moved us of that trendy hotel and into a Holiday Inn Express where the amenities much more convenient. The rest of our stay was much better. Yes, we are the perfect match. :smitten:


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## The Orange Mage (Mar 31, 2011)

I keep looking at the thread title and thinking, "All too often is the fat person the unwilling participant of the (F)FA's sexual attraction/fantasies." =\


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## Webmaster (Mar 31, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> I keep looking at the thread title and thinking, "All too often is the fat person the unwilling participant of the (F)FA's sexual attraction/fantasies." =\



I think that's probably the most negative interpretation possible. 

When two people find each other, AND they get along and have a wonderful relationship, AND it's admiration and thrill mind, body and soul... I really don't see a downside to that.


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## tonynyc (Mar 31, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> I keep looking at the thread title and thinking, "All too often is the fat person the unwilling participant of the (F)FA's sexual attraction/fantasies." =\



Change your signature for starters......


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## tonynyc (Mar 31, 2011)

joswitch said:


> *being a man* trying to get / hold the romantic attention of a BBW in a badly-lit, noisy bar / pub / club while her skinny "friends" run a cockblock.
> 
> It's brutal out there.




*J*os: it certainly is brutal out there- how has other avenues been at meeting BBW... 




superodalisque said:


> your right, i'm NOT a man. and also i AM talking about how i like men to approach me. but then again, i AM a BBW--just trying to help out.



*S*uperO: then ... you do have the rare sort of lucky guy that BBW have no problem approaching them... But, each person is different and it boild down to men also being evaluated by their physical appearence if they can even make it to the introduction.... 



bigmac said:


> Actually I think things have changed quite a lot -- and for the better. When I was in high school in the late 70s and early 80s fat kids were total social outcasts (lucky I was in one of my sort of thin phases during those years). The fat girls didn't go to school dances or parties. The fattest girls were forced to were stretch polyester pants because there wasn't anything else available.
> 
> Fast forward thirty years and things have changed. My oldest daughter (21) has a very active social life despite being a large BBW -- she went to her prom and has no problem finding nice things to wear thanks to stores like Torrid that didn't exist thirty years ago. My second oldest daughter (16) is a bit chubby and likewise is very active socially -- its almost impossible to keep that girl home. Both of them have multiple male friends who are out FAs.
> 
> ...



*B*igMac: things are far from perfect- but, thankfully there are more choices for Large folks to participate in 




Webmaster said:


> I think that's probably the most negative interpretation possible.
> 
> When two people find each other, AND they get along and have a wonderful relationship, AND it's admiration and thrill mind, body and soul... I really don't see a downside to that.



*C*onrad: that's gold when that happens.....


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## superodalisque (Mar 31, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> *J*os:
> 
> 
> *S*uperO: then ... you do have the rare sort of lucky guy that BBW have no problem approaching them... But, each person is different and it boild down to men also being evaluated by their physical appearence if they can even make it to the introduction....



nope, i'm not so sure he is that attracted to women who'd approach him aggressively even though they do. i'm pretty old fashioned and not the type to go after anyone tooth and nail. i'm open and i flirt but i'm not at all aggressive that way. that might be partly what he was attracted to.

its just like what guys say about women. its just very attractive to me when someone is confident in who he is and feels attractive and likable. it makes it easier and more relaxing for me. if he is the type who is easily scared away and needs a lot of coaxing i just have an instinctive reaction not to be that interested--just saying. it might be a biological thing not to be attracted to someone who finds it so hard to go after what he likes. maybe some women are wired for the strong outspoken type because we feel more protected around someone like that.


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## CastingPearls (Mar 31, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> snip/ its just very attractive to me when someone is confident in who he is and feels attractive and likable. it makes it easier and more relaxing for me. if he is the type who is easily scared away and needs a lot of coaxing i just have an instinctive reaction not to be that interested--just saying.



I'm the same way. I don't have the temperament to do what I consider babying or coddling when another woman doesn't see it that way and might really enjoy chasing or winning the guy over. Also, he has to have as much if not more confidence than me or it's a complete turn-off.


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## tonynyc (Mar 31, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> I'm the same way. I don't have the temperament to do what I consider babying or coddling when another woman doesn't see it that way and might really enjoy chasing or winning the guy over. Also, he has to have as much if not more confidence than me or it's a complete turn-off.





superodalisque said:


> nope, i'm not so sure he is that attracted to women who'd approach him aggressively even though they do. i'm pretty old fashioned and not the type to go after anyone tooth and nail. i'm open and i flirt but i'm not at all aggressive that way. that might be partly what he was attracted to.
> 
> its just like what guys say about women. its just very attractive to me when someone is confident in who he is and feels attractive and likable. it makes it easier and more relaxing for me. if he is the type who is easily scared away and needs a lot of coaxing i just have an instinctive reaction not to be that interested--just saying. it might be a biological thing not to be attracted to someone who finds it so hard to go after what he likes. maybe some women are wired for the strong outspoken type because we feel more protected around someone like that.




It's part of that journey in feeling that you have self worth - the ability to laugh at yourself - have no self doubt or pity and to recognize your worth.


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## superodalisque (Mar 31, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> It's part of that journey in feeling that you have self worth - the ability to laugh at yourself - have no self doubt or pity and to recognize your worth.



yep, just the same as it is for the women.


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## Webmaster (Apr 1, 2011)

bigmac said:


> Actually I think things have changed quite a lot -- and for the better.



Note that I said that "in many ways" things have not changed. In some ways they have. 

I once wrote an editorial in the old print version of Dimensions where I predicted that fat discrimination would only change once a lot more people were fat, or the average person were a lot larger than they were back then. I do think that has happened to some extent in the 20 years or so since I wrote that. 

However, society's willingness to accept (or perhaps humanity's ability to perceive as "normal") anything outside of maybe one or two standard deviation away from the mean is limited. "One standard deviation" to the left and right of the mean includes about 67% of all people, and in general, we don't look twice if anyone is within this range; it looks "normal." Two standard deviations, however, includes about 95% of all people, and chances are that a person outside of that norm may attract our attention. Three standard deviations would mean about 99.5%, and anyone outside of that range will definitely attract attention. What all this means is that as the mean weight of the population goes up, the top end of what is considered outside of the "normal" range shifts as well, which means that people of a certain size who did attract attention 20 or 30 years ago now attract less attention.

Then there are other phenomena: while fat people as a group are enormously profitable for the diet industry, and there's been a relentless drive to make fat people feel unattractive and unwanted so that they would buy more diet products, the same does not hold true for the fashion industry. With so many more plus-size women out there, the last thing that industry wants is to antagonize fat people and keep them from buying. So while diet remains a huge industry and their thrust is in making fat people unhappy with their size, other industries will try to appeal to larger people in an effort to get them to buy. 

Finally, when you look at NAAFA or most other size acceptance entities, you find that much of the constituency is outside of those two standard deviations. And for those people, the situation in terms of acceptance has changed less than it has for those who fall within the new "normal" range.


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## bigmac (Apr 2, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> ...
> 
> Finally, when you look at NAAFA or most other size acceptance entities, you find that much of the constituency is outside of those two standard deviations. And for those people, the situation in terms of acceptance has changed less than it has for those who fall within the new "normal" range.



For the most part I agree. The so called _obesity epidemic_ hasn't helped (It would have been nice if Paul Campos's book _The Obesity Myth_ had been more influential).

Also, while things are far from perfect for disadvantaged groups, the last thirty years or so have seen advances in inclusion. At least here in California gays have been very successful in integrating into the workplace and society at large. The same is true for many minority groups. Disabled people have also fought for greater access to the workplace and society although with less success than hoped. I'm thinking that this atmosphere greater diversity and acceptance has helped many supersize folks.

I'm not saying that things are prefect by any means -- just that many people are more accepted today than they would have been thirty years ago.


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## Fox (Apr 3, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.



What?! That actually happens on THIS site? That's terrible! Of all the forums in the world that are plagued with anti-FA thoughts and anti-fat thoughts, this site should not be one of them!

I just can't help but finding this upsetting and offensive. Why would women with such opinions stay on this site? Knowing that they are actively opposing the site's very intentions and goals. It really makes it seem like the women who do that here are just here for respect and sympathy from others that they refuse to give back. It's just not right.


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## The Orange Mage (Apr 4, 2011)

Fox said:


> What?! That actually happens on THIS site? That's terrible! Of all the forums in the world that are plagued with anti-FA thoughts and anti-fat thoughts, this site should not be one of them!
> 
> I just can't help but finding this upsetting and offensive. Why would women with such opinions stay on this site? Knowing that they are actively opposing the site's very intentions and goals. It really makes it seem like the women who do that here are just here for respect and sympathy from others that they refuse to give back. It's just not right.



You may find, as I have, that a fat woman isn't exactly what you want and need. You'll find that these "normal" ladies are missing something...they just don't "get it" like you do when it comes down to it. The kind of woman you want and need exists, but IMO are even more rare than out-and-proud FAs.


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## Dolce (Apr 4, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> The kind of woman you want and need exists, but IMO are even more rare than out-and-proud FAs.



Could you guys do me a favor and please describe this woman to me? Because I think part of the problem is that the woman wants a man who has the mind of a woman and the man wants a woman with the mind of a man. It's obvious that we are not thinking alike.


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## joswitch (Apr 4, 2011)

Fox said:


> What?! That actually happens on THIS site? That's terrible! Of all the forums in the world that are plagued with anti-FA thoughts and anti-fat thoughts, this site should not be one of them!
> 
> I just can't help but finding this upsetting and offensive. *Why would women with such opinions stay on this site? Knowing that they are actively opposing the site's very intentions and goals.* It really makes it seem like the women who do that here are just here for respect and sympathy from others that they refuse to give back. It's just not right.



^Ah, we've had this discussion before.

The answer is, they got comfy here and made female friends, who they like talking to. And they enjoy stompin' on any FAs, especially noObs, who get outta line. Those who are like that aren't really interested in any(thing about) FAs, at all.


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## WVMountainrear (Apr 4, 2011)

_<pokes head in>_

*Feel free to worship my body!* Kthnxbi

_<ducks out>_


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## Fox (Apr 4, 2011)

Dolce said:


> Could you guys do me a favor and please describe this woman to me? Because I think part of the problem is that the woman wants a man who has the mind of a woman and the man wants a woman with the mind of a man. It's obvious that we are not thinking alike.



Well, I'm looking for a big and beautiful girl who's sweet, kind, silly, romantic, and can accept me for who I am. I want her to see my being a FA as a good thing, rather than a disgusting fetish. I mean, sure, when I find this woman, I will adore what's inside as much as I would adore the outside, but I really want this lady to feel the same way about me, because if she can't accept me over something that I can't help, then I doubt she could ever truly adore me for what's inside, you know?


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## WVMountainrear (Apr 4, 2011)

Fox said:


> Well, I'm looking for a big and beautiful girl who's sweet, kind, silly, romantic, and can accept me for who I am. I want her to see my being a FA as a good thing, rather than a disgusting fetish. I mean, sure, when I find this woman, I will adore what's inside as much as I would adore the outside, but I really want this lady to feel the same way about me, because if she can't accept me over something that I can't help, then I doubt she could ever truly adore me for what's inside, you know?



Ok, notwithstanding the silly post above, I had to come in after reading this and make a serious one.

Fox, I don't think I've ever seen someone explain being an FA like you have above, and I think it's the most relatable way I've ever seen it put. A lot of the BBWs on this site want a man to accept them over their weight-- a lot of the time, something they see and describe as something _they_ can't help. You'd think more of us would make much more of an effort to be understanding and be willing to offer the same consideration to someone else as the one we're expecting for ourselves.

I too have made remarks using the word "fetish" with a negative connotation. I'm totally guilty of that. And I think it's because we're using the word unfairly. I think most of the time when you see a BBW talk about someone with a "fetish," it's more along the lines of someone who lurks on the boards only to see the naked fat chicks but doesn't see a person and only sees an object-- they don't want the person, they only want the fat. And for the vast majority of FAs, that's not the case. They want the fat and the person-- the whole fat person. And, for me, that's not only ok...that's awesome. So I think the symantics of the relationships and attitudes between FAs and BBWs (and probably improperly used symantics at that) sometimes makes them unnecessarily complicated. We each think the other is saying something they're not really saying.

But, anyway, great post, Fox...rep is on the way.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 4, 2011)

Fox said:


> Well, I'm looking for a big and beautiful girl who's sweet, kind, silly, romantic, and can accept me for who I am. I want her to see my being a FA as a good thing, rather than a disgusting fetish. I mean, sure, when I find this woman, I will adore what's inside as much as I would adore the outside, but I really want this lady to feel the same way about me, because if she can't accept me over something that I can't help, then I doubt she could ever truly adore me for what's inside, you know?


 
Fox, I'm just building from your post, and not personalizing my response to you. I just wanted to make that clear.

I have nothing inherently for, or against, an FA. An FA is, to me, just a person who prefers fat men or women. I know that many strong, outspoken women who post at Dims prefer to date FA's exclusively ... and I can readily understand their reasoning. It's a wonderful feeling, to know that your partner worships your body and loves every lush inch of it. But that is one aspect of a relationship ... an extremely important one, to be sure, but still ... there are so many other considerations for a long-term partner and sexual compatibility is only one of them. Also, I think that many self-identified FA's (and BBW/BHM for that matter) assume that *only* an FA could find him/her attractive. I don't think that this is true. I believe that there are a lot of men and women who simply do not have set preferences and can love, appreciate (and worship) a fat body independent of whether that individual *identifies* as FA. 

I believe that much of what is ascribed as mistrust or even hatred for FA's is misidentified altogether. I dislike an entitlement attitude, or someone who feels that he/she should be treated with deference due to what amounts to a preference. I am suspicious of the fetish element, but understand that this is first, MY issue ... and second, probably a statistically insignificant percentage of those who identify as FA. 

Many of the men (and women) who constantly bemoan poor treatment of the FA are probably getting negative feedback for an issue other than his/her preference. Some will read what I have to say and ignore or outright overlook what I'm *actually* saying in favor of lumping me into the category of FA-hating shrewish harpy. That isn't what I'm about, at all. 

I'm glad that there's a lid for every pot  I just don't assign bonus points to the lid that fits mine. I reserve that for how he treats me overall, and for how well we mesh in many areas ... not just sexual compatibility. I assume that anyone who would want to date me has already made a statement, at least non-verbally, that physical attraction exists. I'm not _grateful_ for that. I don't have to be.


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## joswitch (Apr 4, 2011)

@Fox and Lovelylady both:

Great posts! Yes indeed!


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## Fox (Apr 4, 2011)

lovelylady78 said:


> Ok, notwithstanding the silly post above, I had to come in after reading this and make a serious one.
> 
> Fox, I don't think I've ever seen someone explain being an FA like you have above, and I think it's the most relatable way I've ever seen it put. A lot of the BBWs on this site want a man to accept them over their weight-- a lot of the time, something they see and describe as something _they_ can't help. You'd think more of us would make much more of an effort to be understanding and be willing to offer the same consideration to someone else as the one we're expecting for ourselves.



Exactly. I see a good relationship as an equal partnership. They both share, accept, support, and love each other along the way. However, if there are things one cannot accept about the other (especially things like this very topic of fat admiration), this can lead to trust issues, then lies, then fights, then most likely the end of a relationship.
My whole life has been spent dealing with discrimination against me or people similar to me. I think the last person I want discriminating against me is the person I might end up spending the rest of my life with.



lovelylady78 said:


> I too have made remarks using the word "fetish" with a negative connotation. I'm totally guilty of that. And I think it's because we're using the word unfairly. I think most of the time when you see a BBW talk about someone with a "fetish," it's more along the lines of someone who lurks on the boards only to see the naked fat chicks but doesn't see a person and only sees an object-- they don't want the person, they only want the fat.



I understand where you come from on this. Understanding a stigma or minority is not an easy task. Your whole life, you've been conditioned (by media, school, possibly family or friends) to think that stigma A is bad, wrong, or like a fetish, or that stigma b doesn't really even exist. And after you hear these things for so long, you began to believe them as your mind begins to accept what you hear from the majority as a complete reality. But as you meet the people of Stigma a or stigma b, you began to hear things in a different perspective. It's often a perspective that challenges everything and all you've been taught before. Some people can learn these new perspectives and become more accepting of stigma a or b, but some people become closed minded of the stigma and stick to what they've been taught previously (like all skinheads, homophobes, fat haters, etc. do).



lovelylady78 said:


> And for the vast majority of FAs, that's not the case. They want the fat and the person-- the whole fat person. And, for me, that's not only ok...that's awesome. So I think the symantics of the relationships and attitudes between FAs and BBWs (and probably improperly used symantics at that) sometimes makes them unnecessarily complicated. We each think the other is saying something they're not really saying.



Well, that depends on the individual. I read before that you used the term "fetishist" to describe a FA that only wants the body of a BBW/SSBBW and not for the woman herself. Well, what you see there is not a fetish. It's just a typical shallow man being a typical shallow man. Just like with men who like thin woman. There are men who want to get with that SEXY SIZE 0-4 and just have sex to their heart's content, but not a day later, he stops answering her phone calls, stops talking to her and completely leaves her to get with the next SEXY SIZE 0-4! But on the other hand, you have a man who likes thin women, but unlike the first male I described, he wants a genuine, loving relationship. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the only difference between a FA and a non-FA is that one likes fat girls and the other doesn't. Besides that, it's basically all the same attractions, actions, feelings, heartbreaks, and whatnot.


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## WVMountainrear (Apr 4, 2011)

Fox said:


> I read before that you used the term "fetishist" to describe a FA that only wants the body of a BBW/SSBBW and not for the woman herself. Well, what you see there is not a fetish. It's just a typical shallow man being a typical shallow man. Just like with men who like thin woman. There are men who want to get with that SEXY SIZE 0-4 and just have sex to their heart's content, but not a day later, he stops answering her phone calls, stops talking to her and completely leaves her to get with the next SEXY SIZE 0-4! But on the other hand, you have a man who likes thin women, but unlike the first male I described, he wants a genuine, loving relationship. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the only difference between a FA and a non-FA is that one likes fat girls and the other doesn't. Besides that, it's basically all the same attractions, actions, feelings, heartbreaks, and whatnot.



Exactly-- that's exactly why I said we were using the term "fetish" improperly because we're not necessarily describing a "fetish" at all...we're describing any random shallow asshole, just like you said. (I say not necessarily because I do believe there's a certain level of fetishism present in liking ANYTHING sexually too obsessively...and I guess it's to each person what he/she defines as "too obsessively.")

But what you just said is exactly what I mean by the symantics of it-- the words we use in these instances say one thing while we mean another. 

And I've said this before, I honestly don't think 99% of us (those of us who have posted and interact with each other anyway) are that far apart in our beliefs about relationships in terms of how people should be treated and how we see our partners (or for those of us who are single, how we conceptualize the relationship we'd like to have with our potential partners) and vice versa. I just think we use poor words (words probably tainted by the sitgma and conditioning you mentioned above) to try get our point across, but those words don't really help to convey what is truly meant.

Again, I completely agree with what you're saying.


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## Fox (Apr 4, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> I have nothing inherently for, or against, an FA. An FA is, to me, just a person who prefers fat men or women. I know that many strong, outspoken women who post at Dims prefer to date FA's exclusively ... and I can readily understand their reasoning. It's a wonderful feeling, to know that your partner worships your body and loves every lush inch of it. But that is one aspect of a relationship ... an extremely important one, to be sure, but still ... there are so many other considerations for a long-term partner and sexual compatibility is only one of them.



You are correct, Traci.  Often, people confuse a physical relationship with a sexual relationship. I personally believe that a sexual relationship is a compound of a physical, mental, and spiritual attributes. Just like human sexuality is a mixture of physical, mental, and spiritual feelings, so is a sexual relationship. The difference is that a sexual relationship deals with these feelings between two people rather than just dealing with the feelings of oneself. Those couples who find a good balance of these attributes can have a very wonderful and healthy relationship. Those who can't find the balance aren't going to have a very good relationship and will eventually end up splitting up if they can't work things out. 



TraciJo67 said:


> Also, I think that many self-identified FA's (and BBW/BHM for that matter) assume that *only* an FA could find him/her attractive. I don't think that this is true. I believe that there are a lot of men and women who simply do not have set preferences and can love, appreciate (and worship) a fat body independent of whether that individual *identifies* as FA.



I actually do agree with this. I do have my preferences as a FA and as a human being in general, but I realize that a beautiful woman is beautiful (regardless of her size). And I find the fact that you are open to dating a non-FA who really likes you a very respectable notion, and will probably be beneficial to you in finding a soul mate. 




TraciJo67 said:


> Many of the men (and women) who constantly bemoan poor treatment of the FA are probably getting negative feedback for an issue other than his/her preference. Some will read what I have to say and ignore or outright overlook what I'm *actually* saying in favor of lumping me into the category of FA-hating shrewish harpy. That isn't what I'm about, at all.



This can happen. An FA can be upset at people and say they are discriminating against him, when in reality, he's just being a douche. If someone behaves this way, one can assume he's still very insecure due to being a social stigma. In that case, his douchery is probably derived from his insecurities. I know that when I was younger, I use to throw a fit or two about unfair I thought it was that I can't share my preferences and thoughts about women with my friends the way they always do amongst themselves and to me. It may not seem like something to feel upset about, but when all your friends talk about is girls, and always discriminate against fat girls and "any freak who would like them", it can be a problem. A lot of minorities are still upset at the fact that they are minorities, along with having problems in life just like everyone else has. That's why I want to be as accepting and understanding of people as I can. Everyone's got his own sack of rocks to carry. I don't feel the need to add to it.


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 5, 2011)

I haven't read through this entire thread (or any of it, honestly) but the main problem I have with the idea of FAs and fat people being the "perfect" match is that appearances change.. I don't think being physically in tune with each other makes you the perfect match. Appearances are fluid, long term relationships aren't.. so I guess I'm missing the compatibility piece. Honestly, I've found the opposite to be true.. the "connections" I've had with FAs have so far been completely or significantly attached to sex.. and they've been, at times, fantastic "connections" but I'm not sure the FA/fat person thing goes much deeper than that. Can it? Sure. But its certainly not the be all and end all.


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## Angel (Apr 5, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> I keep looking at the thread title and thinking, "All too often is the fat person the unwilling participant of the (F)FA's sexual attraction/fantasies." =\





Webmaster said:


> I think that's probably the most negative interpretation possible.
> 
> When two people find each other, AND they get along and have a wonderful relationship, AND it's admiration and thrill mind, body and soul... I really don't see a downside to that.





The Orange Mage said:


> You may find, as I have, that a fat woman isn't exactly what you want and need. You'll find that these "normal" ladies are missing something...they just don't "get it" like you do when it comes down to it. The kind of woman you want and need exists, but IMO are even more rare than out-and-proud FAs.



I discovered Dimensions over ten years ago. I read what print editions I had from cover to cover; and sometimes reread certain articles. I've read a lot of what is on the online site. I've been reading the forums for years. I read at 4-5 other fat related forums also. I've chatted with and talked with many male FAs and male feeders and male FAs and/or feeders who find the thought of women gaining to be stimulating and arousing. 

People come here for different reasons. People stay for different reasons. Not everyone is here to "mingle" with those of the opposite sex. Depending upon what someone's reasons for being here are, they may only see what is posted on the surface. I understand how shocking some posts and fantasies and stories can be to those who don't share similar ideals or values or kinks. I also understand how many FAs and feeders feel frustrated and misunderstood. I understand that many women here have been objectified and misled by men who either are ashamed of the women they are attracted to; or who are secretly manipulative and controlling; or who are fetishist hiding under the guise of being an FA; or who are married and looking for a fat woman on the side. I understand that there are some young FAs and/or feeders who do openly admit to their preferences, yet who are tarnished by the actions of their not so honest predecessors. Add to that all the media hype, and the negative sensationalism of anything relating to extreme obesity, and the fact that some cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. 

There are so many variables that are being squished under the curtain of BBW and FA. Not every BBW is the same. Not every FA is the same. Not every FFA is the same. Not every BHM is the same. Not every feeder is the same. Not every encourager is the same. Not every feedee is the same. Not every gainer is the same. Not every fetishist is the same. Not every fat person is the same. Not every slim person is the same. 

We don't always understand others. All we know is what we see on the surface. All we know is what they permit or allow us to know. Someone may claim to be just an FA or may self identify as someone who is attracted to those with a more generous figure. They may be a lot more than that, but if they are not honest, you won't know until it's too late. On the other hand there are fat individuals who want to be desired but who either can't emotionally handle the thought of someone being aroused by their degree of fatness or who would prefer that they were appreciated for the person that they are rather than for the body they reside in. Everyone should be entitled to their personal feelings and to their personal preferences without being ridiculed or without being made to feel ashamed or less than. There is frustration and misunderstandings on all sides. There is mistrust and genuine reasons why some have their guard up. The only way to absolve all of this is to open up the lines of communication and to be honest. Not everyone will understand or "get it". Not everyone is into the erotic side of fatness. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with those who are. And there isn't anything wrong with anyone who wants to be appreciated for who they are as a person inside first and foremost. 

It is a wonderful thing when two people who understand each other find each other. That could happen a whole lot more if there was more discussion rather than shutting someone down when they finally do begin to open up. A fat person who has been brought up in a fat hating society and who has never known the love of a FA won't necessarily understand the thoughts or fantasies of a FA much less those of a feeder. The thoughts and fantasies of a FA are ingrained in the mind of the FA, not usually in the mind of the fat person the FA is attracted to. If fat people continue to reject the thoughts and fantasies of the FA, or worse are repulsed by them, the FAs will continue to turn to fat erotica and to fat paysites instead of being open with those they find attractive. A person can only handle rejection and their thoughts as being repulsive so many times. There needs to be much more open discussion. There may never be 100% approval, but there would at least be some more understanding and openness. Hopefully, there would be.


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## Weirdo890 (Apr 5, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Bill Fabrey, the man who founded NAAFA (which then stood for National Association to Aid Fat Americans) in 1969 often told of the first meetings of the organization in Manhattan. He described how a group of fat women would come together and sit in a circle, and how a few men also attended the meeting, but they sat in the corners or along the wall. Those men obviously came to the meetings because they were interested in fatness and fat people. The fat women there mostly saw them as creepy and to be suspicious of.
> 
> It's almost half a century later, and in many ways nothing has changed. When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.
> 
> ...



It is sad to see that. I hope that everyone finds that special someone who can satisfy them on all levels.

However, I do hold out hope. Dimensions has done a lot of good for people. It has brought together those who felt left out and have given them a safe haven where they can be accepted. It has helped to give me confidence, as well as my girlfriend. I figure that if at least person is empowered by this site, then they can pass that on to others. :happy:


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## FatKatLuvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Bill Fabrey, the man who founded NAAFA (which then stood for National Association to Aid Fat Americans) in 1969 often told of the first meetings of the organization in Manhattan. He described how a group of fat women would come together and sit in a circle, and how a few men also attended the meeting, but they sat in the corners or along the wall. Those men obviously came to the meetings because they were interested in fatness and fat people. The fat women there mostly saw them as creepy and to be suspicious of.
> 
> It's almost half a century later, and in many ways nothing has changed. When I look at many threads and posts here at Dimensions, the topic is how physical attraction shouldn't matter, that it's the inside that counts, that seeking fatness or certain attributes is just a fetish, and so on.
> 
> ...




_*This is a reprint of a PM, that I sent to JayWestCoast, one year and one month ago. I also sent a copy of this PM to you , Conrad, a year ago this month. I didn't receive a reply back from you then and that's alright. I 've decide to print it here in the Forums, because I believe it has relevance to your post. At the end is a message I wrote to you, Conrad when I sent the PM to you. I think you will recall the following:*_

(original PM sent to JayWestCoast, then forwarded to The Webmaster, again over one year ago)




> *What happened to the old Dimensions?*
> 
> I read your post and understood all of it very well. A few weeks ago I visited the site and came across a post that Conrad left in response to other members who were arguing about what Dimensions "is" and "what it isn't". Conrad set the record straight and I'm glad he did. It's been a long time coming, I'm surprised he held back for so long.
> 
> ...


.

*Note:



This was meant with the utmost respect for you, Conrad. Dimensions is after all YOUR creation. I just don't feel that "the forums" represents what the print magazine was. I'd like to think that you understand what I mean by this. I've tried for awhile to express myself here in "the forums" but it has proved impossible to do so without certain "forum moral police" wanting to censor my words and point of view. It's gotten so out of hand that I decided to just visit and read, and not get involved. It's not what I wanted to do but what I had to do in order keep peace of mind and peace in my visitations to this site. Whatever happens I'll always love what Dimensions has brought to my life. Sincerely, Kevin

Click to expand...

*

__________________


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## Weirdo890 (Apr 5, 2011)

FatKatLuvr said:


> _*This is a reprint of a PM, that I sent to JayWestCoast, one year and one month ago. I also sent a copy of this PM to you , Conrad, a year ago this month. I didn't receive a reply back from you then and that's alright. I 've decide to print it here in the Forums, because I believe it has relevance to your post. At the end is a message I wrote to you, Conrad when I sent the PM to you. I think you will recall the following:*_
> 
> (original PM sent to JayWestCoast, then forwarded to The Webmaster, again over one year ago)
> 
> ...



I don't know if the forums should be done away with. I find it a good way for both sides to communicate and for an exchange of ideas. It should be an extension of the magazine. The magazine should be the gateway to the community.


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## FatKatLuvr (Apr 5, 2011)

That's my point. The magazine was and still is the gateway to the community and the world around it. The problem I ws addressing is that, "The Forums" devolved over time, from the early days (pretty nice) to what you find present day (bickering). Unity is hardly won here. It's going to take a lot more to bring people together than allowing them to "rip each other a new one" over the internet. It's way too easy and it has/had a destructive outcome.

The magazine had/has the ability to let the reader engage without instant reply. Let the information soak in before rash judgements are formed. The quick reply through the forums has created a place to work out personal aggressions, usually about past experiences. The magazine didn't foster that ability. 

What I would like to see happen, is to have Dimensions Magazine returned to it's old glory, PRINT FORM. Then have "Dimensions Online" strictly as an informerial style website, guiding people to the magazine itself. No forums. Let the magazine reach the masses and let nature take it's course. I believe simplicity is the best form of complexity.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 5, 2011)

Thank goodness, then, that it isn't up to you because I for one enjoy the forums and have made many friends here, not to mention learned a great deal not only from like-minded people but also from opposing viewpoints.

Some people with whom I had difficulty when I first came here a year ago this week, I now count among my friends. 

Long live Dimensions forums, flaws and all.


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## WVMountainrear (Apr 5, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Thank goodness, then, that it isn't up to you because I for one enjoy the forums and have made many friends here, not to mention learned a great deal not only from like-minded people but also from opposing viewpoints.
> 
> Some people with whom I had difficulty when I first came here a year ago this week, I now count among my friends.
> 
> Long live Dimensions forums, flaws and all.




*Quoted for truth and emphasis.* (I would've repped you, Lainey, but you know how it goes.) :happy:


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## Webmaster (Apr 5, 2011)

FatKatLuvr said:


> [...I didn't receive a reply back from you then and that's alright.



Sorry about that. I recall this well, and my thought back then was that it merited more than a quick response. Obviously time got away from me, and here we are. 

And I still don't have a comprehensive response other than that, yes, things have changed and even the most elaborate forum system is no direct replacement for the print magazine we used to have. There is no quick answer to this because it's not clear what the answer should be, given that the world and technology have moved on so much. And apart from the considerable work that a renewed print/PDF version would require, it is also not clear what exactly has replaced print. No one has figured that out yet. Newspapers, even large ones, struggle and die. Magazines are still here, but they are no longer quite the same, and everything is accompanied by websites that are not quite sure who and what they are, whether they are supposed to replace print, or complement it, or perhaps be something else entirely. And what it all means to the bottomline. And whether it should be on the web, in something like Zinio, on iPads and Android devices as apps, or what. And the big critics usually get very quiet when you approach them and take them up on their offer to tell you how things should be done. 

Then there's cost and time and effort. When we did the print magazine, we had so and so many thousand subscribers who paid for their subscriptions, we had so and so much advertising income, and we had ancillary programs to make it all work. Today, everything is supposed to be free. Though the Dimensions forums represent a massive community with definite benefit, almost no one contributes.

I can also tell you that from a publishing perspective, there's a huge difference between creating a magazine and running a social community. It is far easier to present a consistent idea and picture in a magazine because magazines are a bit like works of art. You make them, and then people can either like it and peruse it, or not. Running a social community is more like a giant room full of people who are all talking at once and pulling in different directions. And while at times we used to get an angry letter to the editor, the overwhelming majority of those who contacted us were supportive. Online, you say one word someone doesn't like, and you get blasted. No big deal, but eventually you wonder why you even bother and you simply keep your opinions and views to yourself.

So while I agree with much that you said and suggested, and by no means rule anything out, for now all I can do is try to provide the type of community and continuity that I believe is still needed. And I try to keep it as neat and clean and free of spam and trolls as I can, with the very able help of the mod team. Everything, though, is always in flux, and you never know when inspiration strikes and things move on in a compelling direction.


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## FatKatLuvr (Apr 5, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Sorry about that. I recall this well, and my thought back then was that it merited more than a quick response. Obviously time got away from me, and here we are.
> 
> And I still don't have a comprehensive response other than that, yes, things have changed and even the most elaborate forum system is no direct replacement for the print magazine we used to have. There is no quick answer to this because it's not clear what the answer should be, given that the world and technology have moved on so much. And apart from the considerable work that a renewed print/PDF version would require, it is also not clear what exactly has replaced print. No one has figured that out yet. Newspapers, even large ones, struggle and die. Magazines are still here, but they are no longer quite the same, and everything is accompanied by websites that are not quite sure who and what they are, whether they are supposed to replace print, or complement it, or perhaps be something else entirely. And what it all means to the bottomline. And whether it should be on the web, in something like Zinio, on iPads and Android devices as apps, or what. And the big critics usually get very quiet when you approach them and take them up on their offer to tell you how things should be done.
> 
> ...


*I'm glad as well that it's not left up to me, whether the forums stay or not.lol *

Dimensions, however, is still a great accomplishment and I will still check in from time to time. Glad to know my PM didn't fall on deaf ears. Thanks.

Hopefully, things in this world will get better. The future needs for this to happen, humanity must answer to a higher calling. I think you've been ready far longer than most.


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 5, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> I haven't read through this entire thread (or any of it, honestly) but the main problem I have with the idea of FAs and fat people being the "perfect" match is that appearances change.. I don't think being physically in tune with each other makes you the perfect match. Appearances are fluid, long term relationships aren't.. so I guess I'm missing the compatibility piece. Honestly, I've found the opposite to be true.. the "connections" I've had with FAs have so far been completely or significantly attached to sex.. and they've been, at times, fantastic "connections" but I'm not sure the FA/fat person thing goes much deeper than that. Can it? Sure. But its certainly not the be all and end all.



I've recently been informed that this post is offensive, so let me explain what I meant.. I don't think anyone is a perfect match based on physical characteristics alone. To me, being an FA is solely about being attracted to a specific physical appearance.. it says nothing about what type of personality or other characteristics you prefer. And on the other side of the coin, not all fat people have the same personality. So, I guess I'm missing how FA and fat people are naturally the "perfect match." I think the OP realized this as well since he changed the thread title to "the POTENTIAL" perfect match.. which is all I was trying to say with my post. My example of my personal experiences with FAs was to illustrate that any relationship (term used loosely) that is initially, solely, or mostly based on physical appearances will MOST LIKELY continue to be shallow unless you connect on a deeper level.. deeper than FA/fat person. No offense meant to any FAs.


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## penguin (Apr 5, 2011)

FatKatLuvr said:


> he problem I ws addressing is that, "The Forums" devolved over time, from the early days (pretty nice) to what you find present day (bickering).



Bickering, on MY internets?? It happens. No matter WHAT forum you go to, no matter what the topic is...there will be bickering. I have friends who are heavily into knitting, and they've seen all sorts of hostility flare up on those forums over what size needle you'd use for a particular pattern. 

It's human nature to have people argue and disagree. Hoping for everyone to get along without a problem is a nice ideal...but not realistic. The forums allow us to interact with each other in a way that reading a magazine won't.


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## Alzison (Apr 5, 2011)

Hi everyone. I'm, as you can see, very very new to Dims, but after reading this thread, I can't help but want to *gulp* take the plunge and jump in. I must say that I am new to not only this site (and its existence), but also to the existence of the FA concept. I can't tell you how much even reading the posts on this site have made me challenge my perception of men who may be attracted to me or the scope/reach of such a group. Especially knowing that Mr. Big Chief Man is listening, I have to say a really big thank you for presenting this opportunity, as well as the opportunity to hear the perspective of literate, well-spoken FA's who can vouch for the prevalence and value of being attracted to a fat woman. 

I hope that I might really briefly describe a recent experience that, to me, resonates with the whole dichotomy of what it is to be a fat woman. Basically, a few months ago I went to see a therapist for the first (and only) time who purportedly specialized in large patients. Truth be told, this was one of my check points in my then-quest to pursue lap band surgery. After an hour of emotionless questions about my life and physical self, this doctor announced to me that he felt I was an "excellent candidate for surgery." He attempted to verbalize a rationale for this statement by saying to me "Well, I think you are a great candidate for this procedure because... because you aren't waiting to have a life until after you lose weight. You are actually going out there- you have friends, a job, you are dating- while women much much smaller than you wouldn't even want to leave the house until they lost weight, let alone take their clothes off in front of someone. You really are making a go of it, and that's commendable." 

I must admit, I did NOT punch him the face (sadly), but walked out of the office sort of numb and in disbelief. I couldn't even process the statement- that this doctor had basically said that it was admirable that I was attempting to behave like everyone else, despite the fact that I decidedly was not a normal person. I walked about half a block to the curb. A man approached me and immediately said something along the lines of "ooh I like what I see, baby." I turned away and shrugged him off. Not 30 seconds later, another man came up to me, gave me his card, told me that I was beautiful and that he hoped I would contact him. 

This is the line that fat women so often have to walk in our normative society. Being a non-human to some and a fantasy to others. Call me self-centered, but I can't imagine that thin women exist within such polarization. And no matter how confident you become in your own beauty and worth, those poles still tug at you every time you step outside. So, to return to the original post (I hope), I could say that the caution, the fear of "creepiness", the hurdles that fat women align before an FA or any other man can approach them may be rooted in not just saying "is he or isn't he into me," but at something that speaks to "from which side of these two very separate spheres does he see me." 

OK, that officially ends my first *real* dims post. Phew... I hope it wasn't too off-topicy? Or rando. Thanks for reading!


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## FatKatLuvr (Apr 5, 2011)

penguin said:


> Bickering, on MY internets?? It happens. No matter WHAT forum you go to, no matter what the topic is...there will be bickering. I have friends who are heavily into knitting, and they've seen all sorts of hostility flare up on those forums over what size needle you'd use for a particular pattern.
> 
> It's human nature to have people argue and disagree. Hoping for everyone to get along without a problem is a nice ideal...but not realistic. The forums allow us to interact with each other in a way that reading a magazine won't.


Yes, you're right. It's understood that people argue and disagree, rarely is "agree to disagree" used to close the discussion or argument.

Actually, the conventions were supposed to be the outlet to "interact" (in any way suited). Sadly, I still feel the forums have devolved and there's only one way to resolve that issue. That's just my opinion. Btw, people did interact within the magazine, it took time but it was done. People are too use to instantaneousness of the internet now, to appreciate a bi-monthly interaction through the publication. I think it's just a issue with patience and so much social change, too many options. 

People, for some reason feel it would mean going back to the "dark ages" just respond bi-monthly through printed articles or personal ads. It really wasn't that long ago that we were doing just that and it was the norm. Like Conrad said in his reply to me technology has brought about new ways to communicate, those new ways are more acceptable than the old. However, acceptable doesn't mean it's actually better. That's where my frame of mind comes in. 

I don't have a problem with how the old way things worked. Change isn't always good for everything or everybody. I understand that it's inevitable.


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## Blackjack (Apr 5, 2011)

FatKatLuvr said:


> I don't have a problem with how the old way things worked. Change isn't always good for everything or everybody. I understand that it's inevitable.



In other words, you just with this new-fangled technology would go away and the kids need to get off your lawn.


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## Weirdo890 (Apr 5, 2011)

Alzison said:


> Hi everyone. I'm, as you can see, very very new to Dims, but after reading this thread, I can't help but want to *gulp* take the plunge and jump in. I must say that I am new to not only this site (and its existence), but also to the existence of the FA concept. I can't tell you how much even reading the posts on this site have made me challenge my perception of men who may be attracted to me or the scope/reach of such a group. Especially knowing that Mr. Big Chief Man is listening, I have to say a really big thank you for presenting this opportunity, as well as the opportunity to hear the perspective of literate, well-spoken FA's who can vouch for the prevalence and value of being attracted to a fat woman.
> 
> I hope that I might really briefly describe a recent experience that, to me, resonates with the whole dichotomy of what it is to be a fat woman. Basically, a few months ago I went to see a therapist for the first (and only) time who purportedly specialized in large patients. Truth be told, this was one of my check points in my then-quest to pursue lap band surgery. After an hour of emotionless questions about my life and physical self, this doctor announced to me that he felt I was an "excellent candidate for surgery." He attempted to verbalize a rationale for this statement by saying to me "Well, I think you are a great candidate for this procedure because... because you aren't waiting to have a life until after you lose weight. You are actually going out there- you have friends, a job, you are dating- while women much much smaller than you wouldn't even want to leave the house until they lost weight, let alone take their clothes off in front of someone. You really are making a go of it, and that's commendable."
> 
> ...



That is a very interesting and thought-provoking post. I don't think I have any way to respond to this, nothing in an intelligent manner anyway. I'll try to get back tot his later when I've mulled it over and collected my thoughts. Thank you for getting me to think about this.


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## Webmaster (Apr 6, 2011)

Alzison said:


> This is the line that fat women so often have to walk in our normative society. Being a non-human to some and a fantasy to others.



Thanks for an excellent post.

You are also quite right with the above observation. But realize that to many of us who prefer fat partners, it's not a fantasy. It is a reality, our reality, and a reality that we would not want to do without. And as long as a fat person can accept who and what they are, that can make for a potentially perfect match (all else, needless to say, falling into place).


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 6, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> (all else, needless to say, falling into place).



Quoted for truth


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## Alzison (Apr 6, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Thanks for an excellent post.
> 
> You are also quite right with the above observation. But realize that to many of us who prefer fat partners, it's not a fantasy. It is a reality, our reality, and a reality that we would not want to do without. And as long as a fat person can accept who and what they are, that can make for a potentially perfect match (all else, needless to say, falling into place).



Truuuue true, but I would hope that these need not be mutually exclusive? Oh call me a romaaantic, but I'd like to think we fat women can be someone's fantasy turned reality. Though I can't say that would happen for the sleazy suitors (who generally approach you in public transportation-related settings... oh, city life... cue: Lily Allen http://bit.ly/gEECxn )


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## Webmaster (Apr 6, 2011)

Alzison said:


> Truuuue true, but I would hope that these need not be mutually exclusive? Oh call me a romaaantic, but I'd like to think we fat women can be someone's fantasy turned reality.



Yup, fantasy come true, in real life, and real life with a real person even better than any fantasy. It happens.


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## Alzison (Apr 6, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Yup, fantasy come true, in real life, and real life with a real person even better than any fantasy. It happens.



Eeep you make me sound so cynical! (please note: I am so cynical)


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## Fox (Apr 6, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> Quoted for truth



Ok, ok, ok, ok, ok. We get. We really really get it. You think FA/fat person relationships don't fare well because it doesn't go much father then a physical preference, and that there is more to a relationship than just that.

It was pretty offensive in the first post, and the second post you made to do your first post justice, didn't really do it much justice. At least you quoted Webmaster to maintain some sort of dignity here, but that still doesn't tell me what I'd like to know.

What I want to know is: Do you think FAs are incapable of liking a big girl for more than just physical traits? When you were dating those FAs you had mentioned earlier, did you actually make an attempt to make mental or emotional connections with them? Or did you just have sexual relations and just make up your mind that making such attempts would be unseccessful? Are you using this reasoning of yours just to say that there should be more to a relationship than just physical attraction? Or are you using this reasoning to justify not dating FAs in general?

I think the worst thing about your posts is that you mention that you think FA/fat person relationships aren't potential because fat people don't all have the same personality, yet you didn't say you think FAs don't all have the same personality. Pardon me if that accusation is incorrect, but that's sure what it sounds like.


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## Blackjack (Apr 6, 2011)

Fox, I think that you're missing this (very good) point:



thatgirl08 said:


> My example of my personal experiences with FAs was to illustrate that any relationship (term used loosely) that is initially, solely, or mostly based on physical appearances will MOST LIKELY continue to be shallow unless you connect on a deeper level.



Perhaps you should ponder on that rather than projecting her own experiences into a broad insult about the emotional capacities of FAs.


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## Fox (Apr 6, 2011)

Blackjack said:


> Fox, I think that you're missing this (very good) point:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should ponder on that rather than projecting her own experiences into a broad insult about the emotional capacities of FAs.



I didn't actually miss it (it's a pretty good point), I just don't like the context. But to each his own, I guess. I'll back off.


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 6, 2011)

Fox said:


> You think FA/fat person relationships don't fare well because it doesn't go much father then a physical preference, and that there is more to a relationship than just that.



Can you please copy where I said this? I can't find it in either of my posts, so it'd be really helpful to the discussion if you could highlight it for me. Thank you.



Fox said:


> What I want to know is: Do you think FAs are incapable of liking a big girl for more than just physical traits? When you were dating those FAs you had mentioned earlier, did you actually make an attempt to make mental or emotional connections with them? Or did you just have sexual relations and just make up your mind that making such attempts would be unseccessful? Are you using this reasoning of yours just to say that there should be more to a relationship than just physical attraction? Or are you using this reasoning to justify not dating FAs in general?



No, I don't think FAs are incapable of being attracted to fat women on more than a sexual level. My point is that being attracted to someone on a deeper level is absolutely essential to make two people a true "perfect match." Some of the FAs I was involved with were purely for sexual reasons. I didn't expect anything out of those relationships except sex. Some I dated long term. In these relationships, I attempted to (and was successful) connect emotionally & mentally. These relationships ended for problems that have nothing to do with fat or being an FA. I'm using the reasoning to say that there NEEDS to be more to a relationship than just physical attraction for it to truly work long term. I am still open to dating an FA in the future. 

Let me break this down a little more.. if I wrote a thread titled Men Who Love Short Women and Short Women -- the perfect match.. wouldn't you question that a little? I don't see this as being any different. Maybe men who prefer short women and short women would initially be more attracted to each other because of this one fact but there is so much else that goes into a relationship that I think it's both strange and inaccurate to say that men who love short women and short women are the perfect match for each other. Sure, theres that initial attraction but beyond that it takes a million and one other things to be a perfect match. I dig tall guys with tattoos, dark hair, a fantastic ipod selection and college educations. So does that mean that every guy who jams to The Hush Sound is my perfect match? Or I should give my number to every dude with dark hair? It's ONE aspect of a person. It may up the likelihood that they will get along but it pretty much ends there. 



Fox said:


> I think the worst thing about your posts is that you mention that you think FA/fat person relationships aren't potential because fat people don't all have the same personality, yet you didn't say you think FAs don't all have the same personality. Pardon me if that accusation is incorrect, but that's sure what it sounds like.



When I said:



thatgirl08 said:


> To me, being an FA is solely about being attracted to a specific physical appearance.. it says nothing about what type of personality or other characteristics you prefer.



I was essentially trying to imply that. FAs aren't attracted to all the of the same traits in a partner with the exception for that one thing.. so it doesn't make sense to generalize.


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## Fox (Apr 6, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> I am still open to dating an FA in the future.



Ok. That's all I really wanted to know. Sorry for the inconvenience


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 6, 2011)

Fox said:


> Ok. That's all I really wanted to know. Sorry for the inconvenience



.. please tell me this is not some weird, longwinded come on.


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## Fox (Apr 6, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> .. please tell me this is not some weird, longwinded come on.



Oh, you'd like that, wouldn't you?


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## Webmaster (Apr 6, 2011)

Coming in here and lecturing FAs how they can and cannot be attracted to fat people and what it all means, without being a FA herself. It must be really good to know it all.


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## thatgirl08 (Apr 6, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Coming in here and lecturing FAs how they can and cannot be attracted to fat people and what it all means, without being a FA herself. It must be really good to know it all.



So good


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## AnnMarie (Apr 6, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> Let me break this down a little more.. if I wrote a thread titled Men Who Love Short Women and Short Women -- the perfect match.. wouldn't you question that a little?




If you included the word "potential", as was done here, I wouldn't think twice about it. I think that's the key ingredient to this discussion - the _potential_ that exists for the sides to get together. 

The variables you speak of are exactly why it is potential and not a done deal.


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## Weirdo890 (Apr 6, 2011)

Call me a hopeless optimist, but I do think there is always potential for the sides to come together. I think it just involves lots of serious discussion between both parties. I think this is why these forums are important. It allows discussion like this to take place.


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## PeanutButterfly (Apr 6, 2011)

I've been reading through the rest of this thread and I feel like some of the previous posters may have missed a crucial point in this whole FA/Fat person relationship. I've pointed this out before on here and I'll point it out again because I think it's very true: FAs look at the world differently than non FAs do. Most don't believe that nonsense that because you're fat you're automically unhealthy nor do most think that fat people are lazy, stupid or deserve the blame for all of society's ills. I'm generalizing obviously, maybe some do. And I'm sure they are some non FAs who are enlightened enough to understand these concepts as well. From my experience (which is limited I'll admit) most non-FAs happily accept that fat people are all doomed to an early grave or they won't even give a size 16 girl the time of day.

But, as a fat person I like knowing that my partner, as a self proclaimed FA, does not think in those terms. He doesn't look at me and think "gee, she shouldn't be eating that". He knows about Dims and the Size Acceptance movement and not only does he know these very important parts of my life he supports the cause as well. I feel comfortable sharing my weight and jean size with him and any other things about my everyday life that come with my being 215 lbs. I can tell him I want to go to the gym and he'll support me the same way as if I wanted to order dessert at dinner. I don't keep my shirt on when we're intimate (I actually have a friend who does this she's so ashamed of her boyfriend seeing her body) and I always feel sexy around him. Maybe I just found a really awesome guy (which I know I did) but I think this kind of relationship is the one Conrad was referring to. 

And I think it's the kind of relationship that most FAs and fat people can have if they're open to it. I love having someone understand me on a deeper level and who I can say the words "Did you see what was on Dims today?" Its so refreshing and intimate and makes our bond even stronger. Originally it was our looks and sexuality that brought us together. But that shared sexuality has morphed into a deeper connection and understanding than any other I've had in my life. As I've said before I dont think being an FA is purely a physical attraction. Yes I like fat people, fatties rock :eat2: But my being an FA (and even if I wasn't, change it to a self-loving fat chick) makes my view of the world different than a non FA and the easiest place to find that similar viewpoint is in another FA.

Just to be clear it is obviously important to have other things in common to be compatible, I just think finding someone who sees the world similarly to yourself is a great first step to a lasting connection


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## Weirdo890 (Apr 6, 2011)

PeanutButterfly said:


> I've been reading through the rest of this thread and I feel like some of the previous posters may have missed a crucial point in this whole FA/Fat person relationship. I've pointed this out before on here and I'll point it out again because I think it's very true: FAs look at the world differently than non FAs do. Most don't believe that nonsense that because you're fat you're automically unhealthy nor do most think that fat people are lazy, stupid or deserve the blame for all of society's ills. I'm generalizing obviously, maybe some do. And I'm sure they are some non FAs who are enlightened enough to understand these concepts as well. From my experience (which is limited I'll admit) most non-FAs happily accept that fat people are all doomed to an early grave or they won't even give a size 16 girl the time of day.
> 
> But, as a fat person I like knowing that my partner, as a self proclaimed FA, does not think in those terms. He doesn't look at me and think "gee, she shouldn't be eating that". He knows about Dims and the Size Acceptance movement and not only does he know these very important parts of my life he supports the cause as well. I feel comfortable sharing my weight and jean size with him and any other things about my everyday life that come with my being 215 lbs. I can tell him I want to go to the gym and he'll support me the same way as if I wanted to order dessert at dinner. I don't keep my shirt on when we're intimate (I actually have a friend who does this she's so ashamed of her boyfriend seeing her body) and I always feel sexy around him. Maybe I just found a really awesome guy (which I know I did) but I think this kind of relationship is the one Conrad was referring to.
> 
> ...



Beautifully put. :happy:


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 7, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Coming in here and lecturing FAs how they can and cannot be attracted to fat people and what it all means, without being a FA herself. It must be really good to know it all.


 
This comes across as very petulant and judgmental, in itself. 

It is obvious to me that what you're overlooking in Rachel's post is that she's talking about herself, and what she desires in a relationship. She's not discounting or demeaning FA's, nor is she even attempting to see things from their perspective. Rather, she's very plainly stating that she's relationship-minded (even as she's open to a 'friends w/bennies' situation, so long as it's clearly understood on both sides that this is all it's about) and that she requires more in a potential relationship than sexual chemistry. She's explained, and re-explained, and I thought that her OP was crystal clear but she's made it so transparently obvious as to be painful. So I'm wondering why your reaction is defensive and staunch. You aren't seeing what she's really saying. You're projecting what you assume, with many negative connotations, to be what she's either saying or implying. 

Another thing I'm wondering, in general: Why is there such resistance to a woman (or a man, for that matter) saying that the fact that someone is attracted to me isn't a mind-blowing, earth-shattering experience? In my life, I've been drawn to, sexually charged by, even in love with men who didn't love me back or didn't want to pursue anything beyond friendship. I never assumed that my attraction to them would be the gateway to any kind of relationship at all; it was simply a physiological reaction on my part, and had nothing to do with them at all. Except, oh happy days, at times when my feelings were returned. The attraction was wonderful. Some relationships were based only on that; they didn't last. Others, including the one I've been in for the last 23 years, evolved into something so much more than that initial heady intoxication of lust and desire and the ego-rush of my desirability to him. I can't speak of anyone else's experience, only my own, and I assume that I'm not unique: The flush of new romance and the intense lust fades over time, although mutual attraction still exists. It's just that I find WHO he is to be far more exciting than WHAT he is. 

Maybe I'm missing something too. I'm assuming that some of the general defensiveness about this topic comes from men (and women) who have an underlying belief that the simple fact of his/her attraction to a fat body is something worthy of praise.


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## Webmaster (Apr 7, 2011)

I do think you are missing something, Traci. And also for the umpteenth time: It absolutely goes without saying that all else must fall into place. That is totally self-evident. But if it does, I see absolutely nothing wrong with also enjoying what one so happens to be attracted to. And on the other side, being appreciated rather than urged to slim down or else. What non-FAs absolutely do not understand and every FA does is what it all means to us. It far transcends sexual attraction. And it's a very different thing from liking blondes or whatever. If you feel it you know what it is. If you don't, you'll never understand.

Anyway, just like the BBW forum was established so that BBWs could discuss matters without male interference, this forum was set up as a place where FAs could discuss matters without constantly getting lectured and invalidated.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 7, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> I do think you are missing something, Traci. And also for the umpteenth time: It absolutely goes without saying that all else must fall into place. That is totally self-evident. But if it does, I see absolutely nothing wrong with also enjoying what one so happens to be attracted to. And on the other side, being appreciated rather than urged to slim down or else. What non-FAs absolutely do not understand and every FA does is what it all means to us. It far transcends sexual attraction. And it's a very different thing from liking blondes or whatever. If you feel it you know what it is. If you don't, you'll never understand.
> 
> Anyway, just like the BBW forum was established so that BBWs could discuss matters without male interference, this forum was set up as a place where FAs could discuss matters without constantly getting lectured and invalidated.


 
You're seeing criticism and an intent to lecture where none exists. I have been trying, sincerely and with good intent, to explain my own feelings. Not because I believe that *my* feelings are paramount to this discussion, but because I truly feel that what's often getting missed in this kind of exchange is that it's not a be-all-to-end-all that a man can find my body attractive and value me just as I am. I take it as a given. I am attractive, to the right man, and I deserve to be loved in my entirety, warts and all. I'm not waxing on about "love me for who I am" because I believe that you fail to see that point. What I do believe is that any meaningful self-esteem comes from within, not from one man or fifty men or the entire freaking planet finding my body attractive. So I don't value that reality, in itself, as anything more than a really nice bonus. I don't believe that it's healthy for anyone to rely on external feedback to fuel self-esteem, and I don't like the assumption that FA's (or anyone else) believe they can serve in this capacity. And again, this isn't just about me. I am assuming that many other fat men and women, certainly those who have expressed feelings similar to mine in this and other threads, feel varying degrees of agreement/similarity. We aren't feeling understood, and are feeling demonized for sharing what is *our* truth.

I am not criticizing or demeaning. If you see it this way, you are reading more into what I'm saying than what I intend. I understand the point you're trying to make. I don't think there's ANYTHING wrong with finding fat people attractive; I think it's wonderful, and I'm glad of it, since I've spent most of my life being a fat woman, married to a man who loved my fat body. If you disagree with me, I'm OK with that. I'd just like to believe that you're understanding my point.


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## Fox (Apr 7, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> I am not criticizing or demeaning. If you see it this way, you are reading more into what I'm saying than what I intend. I understand the point you're trying to make. *I don't think there's ANYTHING wrong with finding fat people attractive; I think it's wonderful, and I'm glad of it, since I've spent most of my life being a fat woman, married to a man who loved my fat body.* If you disagree with me, I'm OK with that. I'd just like to believe that you're understanding my point.



You know, I'm usually not the one to come to on conversational advice, but I think you probably could have mentioned that earlier and saved yourself from all this drama..


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## The Orange Mage (Apr 7, 2011)

An FA needs to be able to separate lust and love. It can be hard, given that many FAs are inexperienced with dating and relationships.

I learned this lesson last year. I still feel awful about what I did. I'm hypervigilant about it now.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Apr 7, 2011)

^ I think you should replace "An FA" with "Every human being on Earth."


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 7, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> What non-FAs absolutely do not understand and every FA does is what it all means to us. It far transcends sexual attraction. And it's a very different thing from liking blondes or whatever. If you feel it you know what it is. If you don't, you'll never understand.



Does it?

Body shape and size are not anything more than body shape and size. Fat people (male, female, transgendered, intersex, whatever) are the exact same as skinny people except for their size. An FA's attraction to a fat person isn't any different at all from a non-FA's attraction to anyone else. Being around a fat guy turns me on; fat guys aren't any more smart, interesting, insiteful, or thoughtful than skinny guys.

It really seems like everyone on here is saying the same thing. You need a combination of sexual and mental attraction, as well as satisfaction of other practical requirements. With FAs, the sexual component is simply going to be limited to a particular body type.

As with many Dims threads, the ever brilliant and articulate thatgirl08 is explaining it perfectly.


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## butch (Apr 7, 2011)

Funny, as a queer person, in many ways gender is just a shell to me, but yet I doubt many of you would describe your hetero- or homo- sexuality as being as one-dimensional as some are describing the FA attraction.

Yes, I get that there are a whole host of personality traits that go with 'man' and 'woman,' but if you don't know people who completely upend those gender-based traits, then you need to get out more (and, gasp, mannish women, effeminate men, and androgynous people aren't always trans/queer/lesbian and gay, either). One might argue that there is a whole 'world' of difference between dating a fat person and a thin person, and while often times that has been linked to problematic FA desires (control, insecurity, excessively lustful, and so on), I've also seen ways in which fat women have embraced this possibility (the 'bossy fat princess' thread of a few years back comes to mind). 

Just things to ponder. I always find it interesting that non-bi/poly/queer/intersexed folk think that gender somehow is the only thing that shouldn't be considered shallow when it comes to bodies and what they look like.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 7, 2011)

Wait...who's saying anything about gender being shallow?

It just has varying degrees of importance. If you're a 1 or a 7 on the Kinsey scale, it's important with regards to sexual attraction. If we're focusing just on sexuality, than gender may or may not matter. A homosexual male isn't going to be turned on by any and every male, but he won't be turned on absent any male body.


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## butch (Apr 7, 2011)

LoveBHMS said:


> Wait...who's saying anything about gender being shallow?
> 
> It just has varying degrees of importance. If you're a 1 or a 7 on the Kinsey scale, it's important with regards to sexual attraction. If we're focusing just on sexuality, than gender may or may not matter. A homosexual male isn't going to be turned on by any and every male, but he won't be turned on absent any male body.



Just thoughts to ponder. For example, I imagine that many would see nothing wrong with criticizing someone for no longer wanting to be in a relationship with their partner if they lost weight, but would find it perfectly OK to no longer be in a relationship with someone if they changed gender. For me, I'd feel the same way in either scenario-I love the person, not the body they come in.

I'm not staking out some claim that others have to accept, just offering up another point of view that is just as valid as those who are only attracted to one gender, or who discount the importance of being attracted to only certain body sizes.


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## Dromond (Apr 7, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> I do think you are missing something, Traci. And also for the umpteenth time: It absolutely goes without saying that all else must fall into place. That is totally self-evident. But if it does, I see absolutely nothing wrong with also enjoying what one so happens to be attracted to. And on the other side, being appreciated rather than urged to slim down or else. *What non-FAs absolutely do not understand and every FA does is what it all means to us. It far transcends sexual attraction. And it's a very different thing from liking blondes or whatever. If you feel it you know what it is. If you don't, you'll never understand.*
> 
> Anyway, just like the BBW forum was established so that BBWs could discuss matters without male interference, this forum was set up as a place where FAs could discuss matters without constantly getting lectured and invalidated.



The bolded is your opinion. An opinion I do not subscribe to, I should add. In my opinion it is exactly the same as liking blondes or whatever. It's a preference and not some spiritually transcendent event. I like fat chicks, yes I do. They are soft and round, and oh so nice. But the body is just a shell, man. A woman can be the most awesome bodied BBW ever, and if she's got nothing on the ball my attraction falls flat on it's metaphorical face.

Then again, I've never considered myself a "Fat Admirer," as I am not in love with fat. I'm in love with the shape of a BBW, not her fat.


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## AnnMarie (Apr 7, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> ^ I think you should replace "An FA" with "Every human being on Earth."




Exactly! This is a human issue, not specifically FA or otherwise.


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## TraciJo67 (Apr 7, 2011)

butch said:


> Just thoughts to ponder. For example, I imagine that many would see nothing wrong with criticizing someone for no longer wanting to be in a relationship with their partner if they lost weight, but would find it perfectly OK to no longer be in a relationship with someone if they changed gender. For me, I'd feel the same way in either scenario-I love the person, not the body they come in.
> 
> I'm not staking out some claim that others have to accept, just offering up another point of view that is just as valid as those who are only attracted to one gender, or who *discount the importance of being attracted to only certain body sizes*.


 
I'm not discounting that it's important to the person in question, Butch. Nor am I suggesting that there is anything wrong with it. Although I find a wide range of people attractive, in many sizes & shapes & colors, I am predominantly attracted to dark and olive tones and tall, trim bodies. There's nothing wrong with me; it's just part of my make-up. I don't expect this particular type to be happy or grateful or to feel anything at all, really, about my preference. Just as I wouldn't want for someone to condemn it, either. 

That's what I'm genuinely puzzled about; it seems that people are seeing condemnation or judgment when none is intended at all. I don't care what type of person, or what gender, you are attracted to. I just consider it a fact of your make-up, a part of who you are. I know that you don't expect accolades -or- criticism for that. What am I saying that is so offensive? I truly don't get it, and I would like to know.


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## AnnMarie (Apr 7, 2011)

Dromond said:


> Then again, I've never considered myself a "Fat Admirer," as I am not in love with fat. I'm in love with the shape of a BBW, not her fat.



You choose to interpret the label that literally. Many of us do not, and think of it it exactly as you said you do - the shape of a fat partner (or maybe the feel, movement, etc). 


You (general) can't interpret BBW that literally either, unless you think that all big women are Beautiful. If so, then fine - you've got some stringent guidelines for generalized labels. If not, then you understand that life is full of grey areas and categories and labels are just that - a jumping off point. 

But seriously, there's a lot of hair splitting here. I haven't seen ANYONE in this thread saying that body is all that anyone needs. Not a single assertion. We all know what makes a relationship and a bond between two people. All I'm reading from Conrad is that a seeking admirer and a seeking fat individual have the potential to find happiness - and as he stated -


> (all else, needless to say, falling into place).


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## Dromond (Apr 7, 2011)

@AnnMarie: If we're going to get really picky, I don't like any of the labels. I used BBW as a label of convenience, but I do indeed think it's presumptuous. Beauty is subjective, and I can look at two otherwise similar women and think one is attractive and the other is not. Therefore I don't think every big woman is beautiful. But just like FA, it's a generally agreed upon shorthand label. Obviously I need to stop using it and go with my preferred description, "fat chick."

As for the rest, point taken. Conrad did qualify what he said. I have, however, seen people on this very site going on and on about fat as though it were the end all/be all.


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## butch (Apr 8, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> I'm not discounting that it's important to the person in question, Butch. Nor am I suggesting that there is anything wrong with it. Although I find a wide range of people attractive, in many sizes & shapes & colors, I am predominantly attracted to dark and olive tones and tall, trim bodies. There's nothing wrong with me; it's just part of my make-up. I don't expect this particular type to be happy or grateful or to feel anything at all, really, about my preference. Just as I wouldn't want for someone to condemn it, either.
> 
> That's what I'm genuinely puzzled about; it seems that people are seeing condemnation or judgment when none is intended at all. I don't care what type of person, or what gender, you are attracted to. I just consider it a fact of your make-up, a part of who you are. I know that you don't expect accolades -or- criticism for that. What am I saying that is so offensive? I truly don't get it, and I would like to know.



I haven't paid close enough attention to what you've said to know if I've found anything you said offensive, if you're asking me directly. My issue with these types of discussions in general is that people want to make FA-ness something no different than being attracted to someone who is tall, dark, and handsome, and in a world saturated with fat stigma, you can't make those one to one comparisons.

Because it is one of my tropes, I'll bring up the GLBTQ world yet again. There seems to be two broad types of GLBTQ folk in that world, the "I'm just like you except for the person who I sleep with at night," and the "I have my own culture and set of beliefs and I do not buy into the heteronormative world." I am grossly oversimplifying here, and suggesting a binary that doesn't exist (since binaries rarely exist), but I think both viewpoints are perfectly valid.

I tend to think it is the same with FA-ness-for some, it is no different than liking tall, dark, and handsome, and for others, it is a whole other country. I tend to see debates that want us to privilege the folks for who FA-ness is no different than thin admiration, and I simply wonder why one has to be better than the other?

I also think that whenever people who share the taint of a powerful cultural marginalization, as FAs who couple with fat people do by dint of sharing their lives with fat people, they do often times build a certain way of looking at the world, of living in the world, and of learning to cope and resist that omnipresent shaming. Perhaps over time FAs find that life, and that culture, and that way of building resistance against thin privilege, to be part of what they find appealing about fat partners. 

Gay culture didn't just spring up because gay folks wanted something different, it happened because gay people were excluded from basic humanity, denied their identity and right to exist as they were, and a huge way to resist that de-humanization is to create a culture, a world-view, a way of living in the world that allows for other non-heterosexual ways of being. not all gay people did or do need that, nor do all fat people.

But some fat people do, and some people find that mindset, culture, and resistance to be as desirable as the big booty or whatever other physical characteristics they like on fat bodies. Can't we agree that both states of fatness and FA-ness, when done with respect and love and honesty, are equally valid? 

Because, I'm arguing that a complete FA-ness, an FA-ness that is about more than bodies, can be as complex a matrix of attractions as that which defines gender attraction, or cultural attraction, or religious attraction, or other forms of attraction where we readily see that the attraction is about more than just the shell the person comes in. It doesn't always have to be, but it can, and I would like to see this given more consideration in these debates.


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## GTAFA (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks butch... I feel an inch taller after reading that.


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## Fox (Apr 8, 2011)

AnnMarie said:


> But seriously, there's a lot of hair splitting here.* I haven't seen ANYONE in this thread saying that body is all that anyone needs. Not a single assertion. We all know what makes a relationship and a bond between two people.* All I'm reading from Conrad is that a seeking admirer and a seeking fat individual have the potential to find happiness - and as he stated -



LOL Finally someone who's not me noticed this. But seriously, everyone has had the same opinion for the last few pages, but they're still arguing about it.  It just seems like we have the same feelings about relationships, but each one of us has a different way of wording it. Maybe that's the hang up?




butch said:


> I also think that whenever people who share the taint of a powerful cultural marginalization, as FAs who couple with fat people do by dint of sharing their lives with fat people, they do often times build a certain way of looking at the world, of living in the world, and of learning to cope and resist that omnipresent shaming. Perhaps over time FAs find that life, and that culture, and that way of building resistance against thin privilege, to be part of what they find appealing about fat partners.



This is pretty much the way I feel. I've been a social stigma from a very young age. Since I've been attracted to fat people just as long, I see the world in a way that favors fat people, whereas, most non FAs developed a mentality against fat people.

I not only like fat girls for cushion, but because I can assume they would understand me more than thinner girls would (as far as size acceptance and being a social stigma and such). And most importantly, a fat girl would be more accepting of my preference for fat girls. I grew up in a family of thin women who always complained about weight. Gaining weight and getting fat as if it's the worst and most hellish thing imaginable. Always asking the men if they looked fat in that skirt, those pants, blah blah blah. Always hearing women say, "At least I'm not a fat, disgusting pig like most women today." And the like. To most men (guys who aren't FAs), it's funny, cute, or just normal to hear women say things like that. To me, it's like hearing nails on a chalk board. I don't think it should be perceived as a shallow thing to not want to be with a woman like that.

A number of you don't think of FA-ness as anything but a physical preference, but I disagree. Whenever anyone found out about my FA-ness, I was usually known to them afterward as "That freak who likes fat girls." not "that pretty cool, fun, and interesting person who also happens to like fat girls."
So it means a bit more to me than just something physical.


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## Dromond (Apr 8, 2011)

I guess I'm just oblivious. The shame heaped upon fat people blows right past me. I've never lacked for friends, I've never lacked for dates, and I've been happily married twice. People love me, care for me, and I love them and care for them in return. The shame society tries to impose? Sure I notice it, but it doesn't affect me. I'm hardly anything special, I've got more than my share of problems. So, if a deeply flawed person such as myself can walk through it largely untouched, I don't understand why others can't as well.


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## Fox (Apr 8, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I guess I'm just oblivious. The shame heaped upon fat people blows right past me. I've never lacked for friends, I've never lacked for dates, and I've been happily married twice. People love me, care for me, and I love them and care for them in return. The shame society tries to impose? Sure I notice it, but it doesn't affect me. I'm hardly anything special, I've got more than my share of problems. So, if a deeply flawed person such as myself can walk through it largely untouched, I don't understand why others can't as well.



Then why were you afraid to call yourself a fat admirer earlier on this board?
XD


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## WVMountainrear (Apr 8, 2011)

Fox said:


> LOL Finally someone who's not me noticed this. But seriously, everyone has had the same opinion for the last few pages, but they're still arguing about it.  *It just seems like we have the same feelings about relationships, but each one of us has a different way of wording it.* Maybe that's the hang up?



I've been saying this on different boards for weeks now.


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## Dromond (Apr 8, 2011)

Fox said:


> Then why were you afraid to call yourself a fat admirer earlier on this board?
> XD



I am not afraid of the label, I reject it. Perhaps you see the difference between the two?


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## Fox (Apr 8, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I am not afraid of the label, I reject it. Perhaps you see the difference between the two?



Nope! I call false!  I'm just messin' with you. lol

But as for your statement, I guess we're just two totally different people. We were born and raised in completely different places, we grew up with different families, different friends. We got different genes, brain chemistry, etc. The only thing we seem to have in common is liking big girls, but only one of us identifies as a FA. Just like Butch said, not all FAs are the same with how they view their preferences and how that fits in with their identities, and that's perfectly ok. :happy:


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## Weirdo890 (Apr 8, 2011)

BlueBurning said:


> The tension that often seems to exist between the two groups does make some sense. On the one hand you have a group of individuals who have been told that due to their physical size they are not seen as physically attractive and that in order to attract a partner they need to change their physical appearance. On the other hand you have FAs who often have to come to grips with the fact their ideal mate does not mesh with modern societies view of beauty and deal with such issues which arise from this. Once the two groups meet you are bound to have some issues arise due to how each group has been socialized to view physical beauty and toss in some bad experiences for both sides and you wind up with some tension.



It seems to be a neverending cycle.


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## butch (Apr 8, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I guess I'm just oblivious. The shame heaped upon fat people blows right past me. I've never lacked for friends, I've never lacked for dates, and I've been happily married twice. People love me, care for me, and I love them and care for them in return. The shame society tries to impose? Sure I notice it, but it doesn't affect me. I'm hardly anything special, I've got more than my share of problems. So, if a deeply flawed person such as myself can walk through it largely untouched, I don't understand why others can't as well.



Because we're all unique people raised in so many different ways it'll make your head spin, and thus we all don't get to have lives just like yours, even if we think we do the same things you do. 

I'm happy that you have a life that allows you to ignore fat shame. So do I, but I did it in the exact different way you seem to have done it, which means I see fat shame all over the place, and I choose to overcome it. I wish more people could do this without effort, as you suggest.

Is it that hard to accept that a point of view different from your own is less real, less valid? That is what your post suggests to me, and I hope I am wrong. 

For example, I find it hard to understand how you can say you're not impacted by fat shame in this country. Yet you say it, and from what I can gather about you from this website, I trust you are not lying or trying to stir the pot, so I do my best to grant that your point of view has validity, even if it matches my own life as a fat person not one bit. Isn't that how we start to understand the diversity in our world, by granting people the agency to live in their truths?


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## Dromond (Apr 8, 2011)

I've had a doctor dismiss me to my face as a whiny fat guy. I know I lost out on at least one job due to fat discrimination. So in that respect I've been affected by societal prejudice. What did I do about it? I told the doctor to go to hell and found a different one. I shrugged off the missed job and kept applying until I found one. I could be bitter, I could hate society, I could go "woe is me." I choose not to do those things. I chalk it up to "shit happens" and get on with getting on.

I don't see my way as the only valid way, I just don't understand because I haven't lived a different experience. All I have is my own experience to draw upon, and I know for a fact I'm nothing special.


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## butch (Apr 8, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I've had a doctor dismiss me to my face as a whiny fat guy. I know I lost out on at least one job due to fat discrimination. So in that respect I've been affected by societal prejudice. What did I do about it? I told the doctor to go to hell and found a different one. I shrugged off the missed job and kept applying until I found one. I could be bitter, I could hate society, I could go "woe is me." I choose not to do those things. I chalk it up to "shit happens" and get on with getting on.
> 
> I don't see my way as the only valid way, I just don't understand because I haven't lived a different experience. All I have is my own experience to draw upon, and I know for a fact I'm nothing special.



Ah, Ok, see, now what you say makes more sense to me-thank you for allowing me to understand you better. It took me some time to get where you are, and I get there differently, but I don't let those things keep me down, either. Sometimes it takes a lot of effort, but I do get there. If not, my therapist helps me get there.


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## Dolce (Apr 9, 2011)

Got to love the Semantic Police Force. You will be harassed and fined if you fail to have a disclaimer attached to every sentence the pedants could possibly misconstrue. God forbid people should be creative and have theoretical ideas outside of their own experiences.


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## tonynyc (Apr 9, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I've had a doctor dismiss me to my face as a whiny fat guy. I know I lost out on at least one job due to fat discrimination. So in that respect I've been affected by societal prejudice. What did I do about it? I told the doctor to go to hell and found a different one. I shrugged off the missed job and kept applying until I found one. I could be bitter, I could hate society, I could go "woe is me." I choose not to do those things. I chalk it up to "shit happens" and get on with getting on.
> 
> I don't see my way as the only valid way, I just don't understand because I haven't lived a different experience. All I have is my own experience to draw upon, and I know for a fact I'm nothing special.



*Well you could have given the offending physician a hearty handshake*


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## Allie Cat (Apr 13, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Coming in here and lecturing FAs how they can and cannot be attracted to fat people and what it all means, without being a FA herself. It must be really good to know it all.



Coming from anyone else, this would be called trolling.

Thatgirl08, I totally agree with you. I think I'm allowed to say that considering I am an FA... right?


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## mithrandirjn (Apr 14, 2011)

This was somewhat touched upon before, but I really think it just comes down to basic sociological factors.

Put briefly: all too often big folks are made to feel unattractive by society at large. All too often, FA's are made to feel nervous about the idea of letting anybody know they're attracted to big men or women. 

Now create a setting where suddenly the FA gets to let go of his/her inhibition and get that "kid in a candy store" feeling, and a setting wherein the large people now become the outwardly desirable centers of attention, some disaster is bound to follow. This is simply because it's a new situation for a number of the people involved, and they won't always know how to act or react appropriately. 

I certainly believe there are cases where it goes beyond that, where we start entering the realm of objectification and other very negative aspects, but I really think the nuts and bolts of the issue boil down to that role reversal factor, and people having to learn protocol in such situations.

I know from going to bash parties that the simple answer was always just to treat the parties the same way I would going to any club or bar. Same for things like dating sites or what have you: there's no reason whatsoever to have anything besides a normal conversation with the person. I mean, really: if you're on this site, or at a bash, or whatever, your preferences or what you find attractive is pretty well established right off the bat, no?


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## Webmaster (Apr 14, 2011)

Dromond said:


> The bolded is your opinion. An opinion I do not subscribe to, I should add. In my opinion it is exactly the same as liking blondes or whatever. It's a preference and not some spiritually transcendent event. I like fat chicks, yes I do. They are soft and round, and oh so nice. But the body is just a shell, man. A woman can be the most awesome bodied BBW ever, and if she's got nothing on the ball my attraction falls flat on it's metaphorical face.
> 
> Then again, I've never considered myself a "Fat Admirer," as I am not in love with fat. I'm in love with the shape of a BBW, not her fat.



Alright... one more time: Yes, of course you need to like and get along with someone, or else there is no relationship. It is self-evident and I have made it abundantly clear in just about every post on the subject I have ever made.

And yes, I know some people do not like the FA label, some claim that it doesn't matter whether their partner is 97 or 500 pounds, and some reject any physical preference. 

And no, I do not believe our preference is like any other. I think most of those who consider themselves FAs feel very strongly about it and finding a fat partner is a basic need in their lives. 

And about "the body is just a shell, man." Not so. It is the physical part of who and what we are, it carries our soul, if there is one, throughout our lives, it gives us joy and pain, and untold grief if we don't treat it right or something happens to it. Mind, body and soul go together. They are one.

Lastly, this site is Dimensions, where big is beautiful. So whether to you it's some spiritually transcendent even or not, to many it is. If you go to a place where people gather to fight a certain disease, they deeply believe in it, it is their life, and not just some other charity. If you go to a place where people share their passion for a special hobby or profession, it's not just some job like any other. If you go to a Chevy club, it's not just another car. If you attend a certain church, it's not just some religion. This is Dimensions, where big is beautiful. 

And if a person who finds fat people beautiful and a fat person who likes to be wanted for just who she or he is meet, fall in love and become partners, then that is a perfect match, mind, body and soul. That is what Dimensions stands for and seeks.


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## Fox (Apr 14, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Alright... one more time: Yes, of course you need to like and get along with someone, or else there is no relationship. It is self-evident and I have made it abundantly clear in just about every post on the subject I have ever made.



lol I just can't help but feeling sorry for you, Conrad. You've spent so much time (and probably quite a bit of money) to make a site in which fat people and fat admirers could find peace and acceptance only to find out how badly it backfired.

Also, you have made that point from the very beginning (so have I earlier) but big women keep coming into this thread and telling us there needs to be more than just a physical connection, over and over and over, as if they think we are too absent minded to understand it.

Come on people! We are FAs, not animals!



Webmaster said:


> And no, I do not believe our preference is like any other. I think most of those who consider themselves FAs feel very strongly about it and finding a fat partner is a basic need in their lives.



Well, of course it isn't. I've heard people say Fat admiration is no different than liking blonds or brunettes. If that's the case, why aren't there as many blond clubs or brunette clubs as there are BBW clubs? And as you said before, it's easier for FAs and fat people to connect because they have suffered prejudice of a similar kind. Has anyone ever heard the phrase: misery loves company?



Webmaster said:


> And about "the body is just a shell, man." Not so. It is the physical part of who and what we are, it carries our soul, if there is one, throughout our lives, it gives us joy and pain, and untold grief if we don't treat it right or something happens to it. Mind, body and soul go together. They are one.



Exactly. The human body effects how we feel, see, smell, and interact with the world around us. Things in our body's such as the hormones often have a large impact on the way we think and examine the world around us. I honestly think it's foolish to say that the body is nothing more than a shell unless you actually have experience living without one.



Webmaster said:


> Lastly, this site is Dimensions, where big is beautiful. So whether to you it's some spiritually transcendent even or not, to many it is. If you go to a place where people gather to fight a certain disease, they deeply believe in it, it is their life, and not just some other charity. If you go to a place where people share their passion for a special hobby or profession, it's not just some job like any other. If you go to a Chevy club, it's not just another car. If you attend a certain church, it's not just some religion. This is Dimensions, where big is beautiful.



Well, sadly, after more than a decade, that's not the case for this site. You should probably give this up and rename the site "Dimensions, where big is POTENTIALLY beautiful."..  jk, of course.



Webmaster said:


> And if a person who finds fat people beautiful and a fat person who likes to be wanted for just who she or he is meet, fall in love and become partners, then that is a perfect match, mind, body and soul. That is what Dimensions stands for and seeks.



I do believe that it is more possible for a FA and a fat person to develop that bond than it is for a fat person and a non FA to do the same. Usually, when one finds another physically attractive, he's a LOT more interested in actually getting to know the person than one who is not attracted to another.
I'm sorry if I seem to generalize with the statement I'm about to make, but I have a lot lot LOT of non FA (straight male) friends. I've asked each of them what they think of fat girls. Just about all of them said they wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a fat girl. Many of them said they wouldn't even want to be friends with a fat girl. This is why it befuddles me to see big girls here say they could just as easily find love from dating non-FAs 
as the could from dating FAs. It would perhaps be possible, but it certainly wouldn't be AS easy.

And for the women here: if you actually do find a non FA who loves you for mind, body, and soul, how do you know that he isn't a FA? How do you know he's just saying he's not because he's hiding in the closet? Or that he just chooses to reject the label for whatever reason? FAs aren't the tiny brained, obvious people you tend to think they are. They know many BBWs wouldn't even spare a passing glance if those BBWs knew they were FAs. They can lie too. Just like anybody else in the world.


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## LoveBHMS (Apr 14, 2011)

> And no, I do not believe our preference is like any other. I think most of those who consider themselves FAs feel very strongly about it and finding a fat partner is a basic need in their lives



But ultimately this is about attraction, or sexual attraction. I'm really uncomfortable with what amounts to insisting that the FA need for a fat partner is somehow different from anyone else seeking both sexual and emotional compatibility. The fact of needing fat to be satisfied is just a twist in anyone needing to be attracted to somebody. FA's aren't more turned on by their partners than anyone else and whatever thrill or arousal an FA gets from, say, grabbing a love handle isn't stronger than what somebody else gets from his or her partner.

Many posters have compared being an FA with being gay, and that seems close enough. While being gay has its own set of challenges (potential isolation, familial issues, homophobia, parenting) it doesn't make the feelings gay partners have towards each other different from the feelings straights have.

I think where this discussion creates discomfort is not in the needing of fat or the importance of fat, but rather the needing and importance of sexual attraction. 

I love fixing people up on dates, but the most common reason for a couple not going on a second date is just lack of chemistry. I can get everything else right but if there's no chemistry it doesn't work. That having been said, I know numerous long term couples whose relationship doesn't have mutual sexual attraction as its glue. That can and does work for some people.


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## Dromond (Apr 14, 2011)

Webmaster said:


> Alright... one more time: Yes, of course you need to like and get along with someone, or else there is no relationship. It is self-evident and I have made it abundantly clear in just about every post on the subject I have ever made.
> 
> And yes, I know some people do not like the FA label, some claim that it doesn't matter whether their partner is 97 or 500 pounds, and some reject any physical preference.
> 
> ...



The bolded part above screams "objectification," which is precisely the point I was arguing against. It's fine to objectify a car. It's an object. It's fine to objectify a cause. It's also an object (albeit an intangible one). It's not fine to objectify a person, because they are not an object. Objectifying a person is dehumanizing, full stop.

As to the rest, I will stick to loving the person first and the body second.


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## Fox (Apr 14, 2011)

Dromond said:


> The bolded part above screams "objectification," which is precisely the point I was arguing against. It's fine to objectify a car. It's an object. It's fine to objectify a cause. It's also an object (albeit an intangible one). It's not fine to objectify a person, because they are not an object. Objectifying a person is dehumanizing, full stop.
> 
> As to the rest, I will stick to loving the person first and the body second.



Dromond steps up to the plate once again to make a nasty powerful swing! Yet, misses the ball...

Conrad's point was not the fact that those things are objects, but the fact that everyone who goes to those object themed clubs supports the theme of the club. It's like GLBTQ community. Just because they all love and support GLBTQ people, doesn't mean they are objectifying them.


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## Dromond (Apr 14, 2011)

Fox said:


> Dromond steps up to the plate once again to make a nasty powerful swing! Yet, misses the ball...
> 
> Conrad's point was not the fact that those things are objects, but the fact that everyone who goes to those object themed clubs supports the theme of the club. It's like GLBTQ community. Just because they all love and support GLBTQ people, doesn't mean they are objectifying them.



I'm afraid you are the one who missed the point. Being attracted to fat chicks/dudes is not the same as being GLBTQ. Apples and oranges, my friend. There is something fundamental (genetics? brain wiring? who can say?) to your gender identity. There is nothing so fundamental about attraction to fat folks.


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## Fox (Apr 14, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I'm afraid you are the one who missed the point. Being attracted to fat chicks/dudes is not the same as being GLBTQ. Apples and oranges, my friend. There is something fundamental (genetics? brain wiring? who can say?) to your gender identity. There is nothing so fundamental about attraction to fat folks.



wtf? What point did I miss? You're on a completely different subject now. 

But if you really think of fat admiration that way, then perhaps you really aren't a closeted FA.  lol sorry, I couldn't resist.

All I can say is that I didn't just randomly choose to be a FA. I had feelings toward fat people that I didn't have for thinner people for as far back as I can remember. In my teenage years I felt ashamed of this preference and spent some time trying to get rid of it. It never worked. I knew my family and friends wouldn't accept the fact that I'm a FA, so I tried to change it. In the end I realize I'm a FA, pure and simple, and instead of finding some way to hide it, I ultimately need a relationship that allows me to take pride in who and what I am.

I honestly don't know why or how you don't think there's anything fundamental about fat admiration. Whether or not you wish to accept it, all attraction is completely fundamental. You were never taught in school how to be attracted to somebody. Whether you are gay, bisexual, a FA, or even someone with fetishes, you can't help what you are attracted to. You can't really choose what sexuality to have or what turns you on. It's deeply part of you, whether you accept what you like or not.


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## Dromond (Apr 14, 2011)

I think we are talking past each other, so I'll bow out. Just one final thing to say, and I'll put it in the most basic way I can. Fat chicks make my dick hard. That's all there is to it. There is nothing mystical, transcendent, or higher plane of consciousness involved. It's a reptile brain level response.


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## CastingPearls (Apr 14, 2011)

Dromond said:


> I think we are talking past each other, so I'll bow out. Just one final thing to say, and I'll put it in the most basic way I can. Fat chicks make my dick hard. That's all there is to it. There is mothing mystical, transcendent, or higher plane of consciousness involved. It's a reptile brain level response.


Considering that you're in a healthy long term relationship with a beautiful loving fat woman, I tend to agree that you know what you're talking about. 

The way this thread has devolved makes me very sad. I'm seeing personal attacks on people's personal experiences and then denial when being called on it. I also loathe blatant sycophancy.

FTR- I prefer fat men, but also find some average size men attractive as well, in fact, married one. I didn't have to learn it in school and there could be a genetic predisposition but I was raised in a fat family where everyone was loved and accepted regardless of size so I think conditioning/environment DID have a lot to do with it as opposed to being born or hardwired to be gay.


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## Allie Cat (Apr 14, 2011)

Dromond said:


> The bolded part above screams "objectification," which is precisely the point I was arguing against. It's fine to objectify a car. It's an object. It's fine to objectify a cause. It's also an object (albeit an intangible one). It's not fine to objectify a person, because they are not an object. Objectifying a person is dehumanizing, full stop.
> 
> As to the rest, I will stick to loving the person first and the body second.



Well said, man. Hey, I've got your back, for what it's worth.. :\

The trans community has a similar issue, of people who fetishise and objectify us... and most trans people wouldn't touch those people with a 39-and-a-half-foot pole. Same as anyone else, we want to be loved for who we are, not what we are.


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## AnnMarie (Apr 14, 2011)

Dromond said:


> There is something fundamental (genetics? brain wiring? who can say?) to your gender identity. There is nothing so fundamental about attraction to fat folks.



Believes you. And I know a bunch of FAs who swear it's part of their wiring and has been present since their earliest memories - a predisposition to gravitate toward large people, to know that that is where their "center" is.


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## Webmaster (Apr 14, 2011)

Alicia Rose said:


> Same as anyone else, we want to be loved for who we are, not what we are.



And who you are is mind, body and soul. 

In my book, loving three out of three is better than loving two out of three. Declaring the third irrelevant, or an irrelevant fetish, is weird and insulting, but hey, whatever works for people.

I really have no further interest in defending, especially not on a size-positive site, why to most of us FAs our preference is a beautiful thing and a positive force in our lives. So anyone can feel free to accuse FAs of objectifying, or belittling our preference. Very disappointing. Case closed.


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