# Do you find fat men more masculine?



## Melian (Sep 1, 2011)

I was watching tv last night and couldn't help but notice how the thin men resembled little girls, what with their gangly limbs and feminine jawlines.

Primal fertility stuff aside, I just find fat men more manly. This goes from merely curvy all the way to supersized. In fact, something about the exaggerated curve and softness of a supersized man just shouts masculinity. Not sure why, it just works for me, a FFA.


----------



## KittyKitten (Sep 1, 2011)

:happy:To me masculinity, is how one acts.


----------



## imfree (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks for a great idea and thread. I really find fat, curves, and a heavy, rounded body to be unisexually more attractive. Maybe it's because I have an artist's soul or maybe it's just ADD, but I find fat on a prospective partner and on myself to be very attractive.


----------



## Melian (Sep 1, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> :happy:To me masculinity, is how one acts.



Well....I suppose if you want to be all _cerebral_ about it


----------



## Blackjack (Sep 1, 2011)

MELIAN HAVE MY CHILDRENS.

Paquito will forgive me for cheating on him this once


----------



## The Orange Mage (Sep 1, 2011)

screw tha haters, I love being all tiny and feminine


----------



## imfree (Sep 1, 2011)

Melian said:


> I was watching tv last night and couldn't help but notice how the thin men resembled little girls, what with their gangly limbs and feminine jawlines.
> 
> Primal fertility stuff aside, I just find fat men more manly. This goes from merely curvy all the way to supersized. In fact, something about the exaggerated curve and softness of a supersized man just shouts masculinity. Not sure why, it just works for me, a FFA.



This thread could take a bad turn and even turn into a snarkfest.


----------



## The Orange Mage (Sep 1, 2011)

Also, what about pear-shaped dudes with long hair. WHAT ABOUT.


----------



## WVMountainrear (Sep 1, 2011)

Can't...rep... 

But it's greatly deserved.


----------



## imfree (Sep 1, 2011)

lovelylady78 said:


> Can't...rep...
> 
> But it's greatly deserved.



Got 'im. Hope you meant OM, as his comment was great!


*A playful snarkfest would be fine.:happy:


----------



## WVMountainrear (Sep 1, 2011)

imfree said:


> Got 'im. Hope you meant OM, as his comment was great!
> 
> 
> *A playful snarkfest would be fine.:happy:



I was actually referring to Melian, but I'm never adverse to rep for the dashing Mage.  Thank you, imfree!


----------



## MattB (Sep 1, 2011)

Once again, us "mid-sized" guys get the shaft...


----------



## imfree (Sep 1, 2011)

lovelylady78 said:


> I was actually referring to Melian, but I'm never adverse to rep for the dashing Mage.  Thank you, imfree!



You're welcome, LL78. This thread was such a brilliant idea! I shouldda' got Mel first!:doh:


----------



## Melian (Sep 1, 2011)

Blackjack said:


> MELIAN HAVE MY CHILDRENS.
> 
> Paquito will forgive me for cheating on him this once



Ha! He's more likely to give birth to a child. Besides, I don't think I've hit puberty yet.



The Orange Mage said:


> screw tha haters, I love being all tiny and feminine



That was the wrong answer. Please change it.



The Orange Mage said:


> Also, what about pear-shaped dudes with long hair. WHAT ABOUT.



This is somewhat more acceptable. 5/10.



MattB said:


> Once again, us "mid-sized" guys get the shaft...



Start eating and I'll give you a shaft....


----------



## Paquito (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm confident enough in my EXTREME MASCULINITY to let you get dominated by Melian, Blackjack. Just once though. She'll destroy you anyway, so I don't have too much to worry about.


----------



## Jon Blaze (Sep 1, 2011)

Carry On.


----------



## tonynyc (Sep 1, 2011)

Jon Blaze said:


> Carry On.



Looks like Cap has been guzzling the good stuff!!!!


----------



## kioewen (Sep 1, 2011)

Melian said:


> Do you find fat men more masculine?



No, I do not find that they are more masculine. Unlike full-figured women, who are more feminine than thin women, fat men are not more masculine. Lean and/or muscular men are more masculine (as a general rule).

IMO.


----------



## kioewen (Sep 1, 2011)

imfree said:


> This thread could take a bad turn and even turn into a snarkfest.



I don't see why. Plain question, plain answer (see my response above).


----------



## KittyKitten (Sep 1, 2011)

I find men with higher testosterone levels very attractive. Higher testosterone levels means hot in bed. Balding men have a higher testosterone level so I think balding men are hot!


----------



## Melian (Sep 1, 2011)

Everyone's posts are welcome.

I started this thread so that we may all educate each other.

:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 1, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> I find men with higher testosterone levels very attractive. Higher testosterone levels means hot in bed. Balding men have a higher testosterone level so I think balding men are hot!



I started balding at 18 and went completely clean shaven by 25. I can barely contain myself with all the testosterone coursing through my veins.

That's why I double up on the boxer briefs because it's embarassing when all it takes is a stiff wind to give you a stiff something else.


----------



## SlightlyMorbid (Sep 2, 2011)

Melian said:


> I was watching tv last night and couldn't help but notice how the thin men resembled little girls, what with their gangly limbs and feminine jawlines.
> .



You sure that wasn't Lady Gaga dressin' up again?


----------



## Melian (Sep 2, 2011)

SlightlyMorbid said:


> You sure that wasn't Lady Gaga dressin' up again?



No! You're not getting it.

Fat men are masculine, thin men are not. There are no other permutations.

This is my thread!!!


----------



## SlightlyMorbid (Sep 2, 2011)

Melian said:


> No! You're not getting it.
> 
> Fat men are masculine, thin men are not. There are no other permutations.
> 
> This is my thread!!!



Gah, my sarcasm was missed -facedesk- 


And yes. Fat men are masculine. How's a stickman gonna protect you from a Zombie Nazi raider, huh? 

The fat guy can just sit on the bastard and the problem's dealt with.


----------



## Melian (Sep 2, 2011)

SlightlyMorbid said:


> Gah, my sarcasm was missed -facedesk-



Your sarcasm was noted....mine was missed


----------



## FatAndProud (Sep 2, 2011)

I think cash rules everything around me. Dolla, dolla bill, y'all.


----------



## Tina (Sep 2, 2011)

No. I've always liked big guys, but they, as a group, are no more masculine than thin guys. Masculinity is a mindset not a body size or type.


----------



## Melian (Sep 2, 2011)

FatAndProud said:


> I think cash rules everything around me. Dolla, dolla bill, y'all.



Now that's a message that belongs on a motivational poster!



Tina said:


> No. I've always liked big guys, but they, as a group, are no more masculine than thin guys. Masculinity is a mindset not a body size or type.



Ah! Why aren't you guys getting it? I didn't ask this question to get ANSWERS....I asked it so that you would agree with me!! Because we all know that there is only one kind of masculinity, and fat men get the job done


----------



## Tina (Sep 2, 2011)

Um, uh, okay, sure. If there is only one kind of masculinity then there must be only one kind of femininity. There's a concept.

Don't like it.


----------



## FatAndProud (Sep 3, 2011)

Tina said:


> Um, uh, okay, sure. If there is only one kind of masculinity then there must be only one kind of femininity. There's a concept.
> 
> Don't like it.



I think that's her point? There's several ways to express both masculinity and femininity apart from size. Long live the FFA's that one-up their male counterparts the FA's.


----------



## kioewen (Sep 3, 2011)

FatAndProud said:


> I think that's her point.



Yes, I assumed it was. However, for my part, I thought it was more fruitful to take the question at face value and answer it sincerely. Said answer actually supports the other thread.


----------



## Tina (Sep 3, 2011)

FatAndProud said:


> I think that's her point?



Yes, I did get that.


----------



## Blackjack (Sep 3, 2011)

kioewen said:


> Yes, I assumed it was. However, for my part, I thought it was more fruitful to take the question at face value and answer it sincerely. Said answer actually supports the other thread.



Said answer doesn't do anything but support the idea of "my type is the most masculine and the type *I like* is the most feminine".


----------



## imfree (Sep 3, 2011)

Blackjack said:


> Said answer doesn't do anything but support the idea of "my type is the most masculine and the type *I like* is the most feminine".



Gotta' love it when someone else disagrees with the "He can' be a man 'cuz he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me and/or speak basketball, football, or NASCAR" philosophy!


----------



## FatAndProud (Sep 3, 2011)

From this day forth, I vow to express my masculofemininity due to my size and subsequent growth of armpit, leg, and moustache hair. I will be amazing.

Seriously, though. Gender, in my opinion, is an act. We are socialized into what is female and what is male. Our sex is determined biologically. Gender is a large stage and we are its actors. Sex is the card that is dealt and we either play it, or fold.


----------



## Russ2d (Sep 3, 2011)

Melian said:


> I was watching tv last night and couldn't help but notice how the thin men resembled little girls, what with their gangly limbs and feminine jawlines.
> 
> Primal fertility stuff aside, I just find fat men more manly. This goes from merely curvy all the way to supersized. In fact, something about the exaggerated curve and softness of a supersized man just shouts masculinity. Not sure why, it just works for me, a FFA.



Awww ThinkingFA's post upset you... a cursory examination of a healthy biologically normal man's genes and hormones will probably upset you further so don't bother

Into the discard pile this goes labeled 'juvenile'


----------



## Melian (Sep 3, 2011)

Russ2d said:


> Awww ThinkingFA's post upset you... a cursory examination of a healthy biologically normal man's genes and hormones will probably upset you further so don't bother
> 
> Into the discard pile this goes labeled 'juvenile'



Hahahahahaha. 

Oh, you were serious.


----------



## Blackjack (Sep 3, 2011)

Melian said:


> Hahahahahaha.
> 
> Oh, you were serious.



You're just a woman with a small brain. With a brain a third the size of us. It's science.


----------



## Surlysomething (Sep 3, 2011)

Melian said:


> Hahahahahaha.
> 
> Oh, you were serious.



You crack me up, lady.

It's amazing how many people here don't get it.


----------



## butch (Sep 3, 2011)

Melian said:


> I was watching tv last night and couldn't help but notice how the thin men resembled little girls, what with their gangly limbs and feminine jawlines.
> 
> Primal fertility stuff aside, I just find fat men more manly. This goes from merely curvy all the way to supersized. In fact, something about the exaggerated curve and softness of a supersized man just shouts masculinity. Not sure why, it just works for me, a FFA.



That must be why all these people keep calling me "Sir," since my extra fat makes my girly body all manly masculine looking. Thanks for opening my eyes to the amazing gendered properties of fat, Melian.


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 3, 2011)

imfree said:


> Gotta' love it when someone else disagrees with the "He can' be a man 'cuz he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me and/or speak basketball, football, or NASCAR" philosophy!



That is still one of my favorite riffs of all time to play. Every time I'm noodling around at some point I will wind up doing the Satisfaction riff.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 3, 2011)

Surlysomething said:


> You crack me up, lady.
> 
> It's amazing how many people here don't get it.



There are some seriously thick people here, and I don't mean thick in the waistline.


----------



## imfree (Sep 3, 2011)

LeoGibson said:


> That is still one of my favorite riffs of all time to play. Every time I'm noodling around at some point I will wind up doing the Satisfaction riff.




Great riff and Mick had the media nailed since the mid-60's!:doh: You can't get no satisfaction, but, "by God", the media would have you convinced that they can sell it to you!


----------



## tonynyc (Sep 3, 2011)

imfree said:


> Great riff and Mick had the media nailed since the mid-60's!:doh: You can't get no satisfaction, but, "by God", the media would have you convinced that they can sell it to you!



*A*nd if we are going 60's old school none was better than Weightlifting Legend - Paul Anderson....







*Paul is about to do a one arm press with a 250 - 300 lbs Dumbbell*


----------



## imfree (Sep 3, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> *A*nd if we are going 60's old school none was better than Weightlifting Legend - Paul Anderson....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Total satisfaction, without any media hype. Well done!


----------



## MattB (Sep 3, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> *A*nd if we are going 60's old school none was better than Weightlifting Legend - Paul Anderson....
> 
> 
> 
> *Paul is about to do a one arm press with a 250 - 300 lbs Dumbbell*



Very masculine! Could be masculiner though...


----------



## tonynyc (Sep 3, 2011)

MattB said:


> Very masculine! Could be masculiner though...



And... Paul didn't train with any of the fancy suits or modern equipment that most lifters used today and for a large man very strong.. some of the lifts that he did over 50 years ago - are still amazing...


----------



## disconnectedsmile (Sep 4, 2011)

Melian said:


> Do you find fat men more masculine?



although i'm less than amused at your snarky, snarky thread, i will answer your question honestly.
yes, i do think fat men are more masculine than skinny men.


----------



## PunkyGurly74 (Sep 4, 2011)

Tossing in my two cents...


I don't believe size has anything to do with masculinity...nor gender..

I have met men and women alike who display masculine traits.

But, I will say being a very tall, large SSBBW I have been on the receiving end of being treated as "one of the boys", because, to many my size does not register me anywhere on the feminine side...due to a perception that big = masculine?


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 4, 2011)

I haven't responded seriously because I don't believe that was the OP's intention here. I think it is to show the complete and utter ridiculousness of basing intangible things to a persons size wether it be male or female. It's just bleepin' ignorant and narrow-minded. Now if that happens to be your personal preference for what is attractive, then so be it. Enjoy with good measure, but that doesn't make your preference true as a whole.

For every masculine fat guy, I can take you and show you plenty that are softer and more of what most would consider feminine, with soft skin and moobs they resemble a more feminine ideal. Then you have those that are more the powerlifter type that I can see coming off as a bit more masculine. But there are probably more of the others as not as many will turn to the iron and combat sports to gain respect as a fat kid. This is not based on stats, but just my personal observations in life. The former tend to be less aggressive in their personalities and their defense mechanism to whatever negativity tends to be more passive wich IMO has them come off as if not feminine, then less masculine for sure.

The same can be said for females. For every uber feminine fat girl there are plenty ***Sarcasm Alert*** bad bitches (and I mean that as the highest form of compliment to those of you that applies to:bow: so please don't come looking for me to whoop up on me, a'ight) Once again,back to my observations. My opinion is that alot of bigger women through shyness or shame or for whatever reason, tend to dress down a bit more, I see alot with shorter more masculine hairdos I don't know why that is, but I see it plenty. They also tend to hide their bodies more and due to size issues some even where men's clothing I have seen. But the ones that do have confidence and take the time to be feminine and all that goes with it,wow va va vavoom they can get a motor running. But so can a thinner woman who carries herself in such a manner.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that masculinity/femininity is not tied into size at all. It is an attitude, a persona, a confidence, it is an intangible thing that some have and some do not. A belly doesn't have anything to do with it.


----------



## ConnieLynn (Sep 4, 2011)

Y'all are such jokesters. _Everyone_ knows that fat has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

Masculine = huge penis
Feminine = hairless twat


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 4, 2011)

ConnieLynn said:


> Y'all are such jokesters. _Everyone_ knows that fat has absolutely nothing to do with it.
> 
> Masculine = huge penis
> Feminine = hairless twat



It won't let me rep you for this! :bow:


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 4, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> It won't let me rep you for this! :bow:



Got her for you. Definitive truth.


----------



## MillyLittleMonster (Sep 4, 2011)

SlightlyMorbid said:


> Gah, my sarcasm was missed -facedesk-
> 
> 
> And yes. Fat men are masculine. How's a stickman gonna protect you from a Zombie Nazi raider, huh?
> ...



Until he gets swarmed and the zombies hit the jackpot.

But personally, I'd remain slim to avoid zombies that way I can run in my heavy duty boots and kick ass where as if I was to be fat.....I'd handicap myself.


----------



## imfree (Sep 4, 2011)

LeoGibson said:


> Got her for you. Definitive truth.



imfree goes yelping off into the distance.


----------



## olwen (Sep 4, 2011)

LeoGibson said:


> I haven't responded seriously because I don't believe that was the OP's intention here. I think it is to show the complete and utter ridiculousness of basing intangible things to a persons size wether it be male or female. It's just bleepin' ignorant and narrow-minded. Now if that happens to be your personal preference for what is attractive, then so be it. Enjoy with good measure, but that doesn't make your preference true as a whole.
> 
> For every masculine fat guy, I can take you and show you plenty that are softer and more of what most would consider feminine, with soft skin and moobs they resemble a more feminine ideal. Then you have those that are more the powerlifter type that I can see coming off as a bit more masculine. But there are probably more of the others as not as many will turn to the iron and combat sports to gain respect as a fat kid. This is not based on stats, but just my personal observations in life. The former tend to be less aggressive in their personalities and their defense mechanism to whatever negativity tends to be more passive wich IMO has them come off as if not feminine, then less masculine for sure.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I disagree with you completely. Gender expression is totally related to size. I'm not pear shaped so even if I'm wearing a dress and makeup people will still assume I'm a guy and call me sir. It happens more times than I'd like. For people who aren't attracted to fat people we are all just sexless as far as they are concerned. So this question is a really good one. 

As for why fat women dress down, don't assume it's cause we are all trying to hide. Pretty clothes in plus sizes are difficult to find. They don't sell them in straight size stores and there aren't that many brick and mortar stores that do. As it is Lane Bryant tries to sell a fat girl everything she needs from bras to career clothes, to sportwear separates all in one store where there is limited floor space. Makes for very few options especially if your size isn't there and the clothes don't fit your body very well. How many throw up print polyester skirts does one girl need? None I tell you. 

Sometimes it's just easier to pull yourself out of fashion altogether than it is to spend countless hours online (where you can't try on the clothes right away) to find something, anything that isn't boring, sad, or made of synthetic fibers. If my only choices are a shapeless dress and leggins or a shapeless sweater and jeans that don't fit right then yeah, it's gonna be hard to cultivate a typically feminine look for a fat girl (especially if you aren't pear shaped) and people are gonna call you sir. Men's clothes are cut bigger so they fit. I actually don't own any button down shirts cause the arms never fit and I've tried wearing men's shirts. The arms fit but the sleeves are too long and the hips are too narrow, and hello, it's cut in a masculine style, and I can't wear heels cause it's too painful and anyway they don't fit. Sneakers and mens's shoes fit tho, so yeah again, people are gonna call me sir. 

I don't know about other fat girls who are apple shaped, but I have to be very mindful of how feminine or masculine I might look in my clothes when I shop online. It's not just a matter of putting on some lipstick and a dress and calling it a day.


----------



## CastingPearls (Sep 4, 2011)

LeoGibson said:


> snipped for brevity/ Once again,back to my observations. My opinion is that alot of bigger women through shyness or shame or for whatever reason, tend to dress down a bit more, I see alot with shorter more masculine hairdos I don't know why that is, but I see it plenty. They also tend to hide their bodies more and due to size issues some even where men's clothing I have seen. But the ones that do have confidence and take the time to be feminine and all that goes with it,wow va va vavoom they can get a motor running. But so can a thinner woman who carries herself in such a manner.
> 
> So I guess what I'm getting at is that masculinity/femininity is not tied into size at all. It is an attitude, a persona, a confidence, it is an intangible thing that some have and some do not. A belly doesn't have anything to do with it.



I think perhaps your assumptions about why a bbw dresses or styles her hair is because you pay more attention to the bigger woman. There are PLENTY of thin women who don't dress to entice a man, don't even care about a personal style and even have their own interpretation of femininity. How do we tie that into confidence? Is the thin woman who is wearing scrubs or a grubby uniform running through the supermarket someone who has poor self-esteem? Bad attitude? Then why assume it for the fat woman? 

And why does a thread about masculinity have to turn into one more opportunity to knock the motives of the bbw and her failings to please potential admirers? It's disingenuous, extremely short-sighted and frankly, overdone and tiresome.

****

I don't find fat men MORE masculine. I find big men more attractive but won't discount a thinner man. I take personality into account as much as appearance. I will say that as a ssbbw, contrast of a big person/small person does nothing for me personally, although I know that turns on a lot of people here . I'd like to 'look up to' a guy for a change but even that isn't a dealbreaker. 

In the end, it's a matter of personal taste for everyone.


----------



## olwen (Sep 4, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> I think perhaps your assumptions about why a bbw dresses or styles her hair is because you pay more attention to the bigger woman. There are PLENTY of thin women who don't dress to entice a man, don't even care about a personal style and even have their own interpretation of femininity. How do we tie that into confidence? Is the thin woman who is wearing scrubs or a grubby uniform running through the supermarket someone who has poor self-esteem? Bad attitude? Then why assume it for the fat woman?
> 
> And why does a thread about masculinity have to turn into one more opportunity to knock the motives of the bbw and her failings to please potential admirers? It's disingenuous, extremely short-sighted and frankly, overdone and tiresome.
> 
> ...



Yes. I feel the same way basically. I prefer a guy who isn't petite, but that doesn't make him less masculine, just not my taste. A guy who is wishy-washy, no matter the size just isn't masculine to me. A chubby guy who is is stylish and outgoing will catch my eye as much as an average built guy who is stylish and outgoing. Attitude counts for a lot.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe (Sep 4, 2011)

This thread is interesting to me (even if Melian wasn't looking for serious answers. ) As an SSBBW, I've always read FAs saying fat is more feminine, and I eventually began to see it that way myself. I now see fat as being inherently voluptuous and feminine, which means that to me, SSBHMs actually seem feminine to me. HOWEVER (and this is a big however) that perception is easily changed based on how the guy acts towards me. If he acts in a way that is confident and playfully dominating, well, my perception of him is going to change pretty quickly. 

Masculinity and femininity is really a very fluid thing and can't ever be defined just by body size, IMHO.


----------



## Melian (Sep 4, 2011)

LeoGibson said:


> I haven't responded seriously because I don't believe that was the OP's intention here. I think it is to show the complete and utter ridiculousness of basing intangible things to a persons size wether it be male or female.



That's a good summary.



BigBeautifulMe said:


> This thread is interesting to me (even if Melian wasn't looking for serious answers. )



It definitely started off as a silly, sarcastic thread, but I'm pleased that it actually managed to inspire of bit of thought on the subject. 

Just to be clear, I'm not offended or even angered when someone I don't know, who has never seen me, decides to imply that I look like a young boy. It's just....annoying. Like a mosquito that has been circling your head for 45 minutes, just asking for a swat - that's how I feel about the repeated suggestion on this site that thin women are comparable to sickly children (and I guess our partners are pedophiles, right?). For a forum that embraces size acceptance, this sentiment is incredibly hypocritical and unnecessary. If you love fat women and think they are the sexiest, most amazing people in existence....fine! Say it. There are so many absolutely gorgeous fat women out there, and no one will be surprised that FAs on a site like this will find them to be way hotter than thin women. The part that tends to bother people, is when the loving of fat people is peppered with the hating of thin people. When you do this, you are no better than the drunk guy at the bar who makes rude gestures/comments to a BBW.

And then there's the whole gender representation/size issue. What defines masculinity or femininity? It's fairly subjective, and I think most people will give you incredibly variable answers. Biologically speaking, here's a quick list of characteristics that one might use to determine if someone was "masculine" or "feminine" (and I'm not just pulling these out of my ass - I'm a biologist, and have studied anatomy, molecular biology and biochemistry for over a decade now):

1. Hormone levels - what is your circulating testosterone or estrogen? Do you request a blood test before judging people?

2. Sex organ development - sorry sir, but I'm going to have to cup your junk before I can decide if you are man enough for me.

3. Secondary sexual characteristics - I think this is the focus of a lot of FAs. Bigger breasts = more female, right?

4. Tone of voice - often a representation of hormone levels. Is a deep-voiced BBW masculine, despite the large breasts that she (may) have?

5. Height - of course, we all know that it's very masculine to be tall. 

6. Behaviour/Demeanor - gawd, I hope we're not using this one! I'm definitely a crass, crude, aggressive man!

It doesn't matter which criterion you use - hell, you can use them all in some sort of gender representation report card - but the end result will be that you can't make a blanket statement that reliably relates size to masculinity or femininity. There is just too much variation for any generalization to hold up. What about the BBW who are "apple-shaped" and have smaller breasts? What about the thin women who have naturally large breasts? What about the men with breasts, fat or thin?? If a fat man is 5'2, has breasts, and a high-pitched voice...but the biggest penis you've EVER SEEN, what does that make him? If he covers his huge wang with tight, 90's-Chuck-Norrisesque denim, does that make him even more of a man (and a cowboy!)?


Alright, if anyone is still reading, this was my attempt at a serious post!


----------



## BigBeautifulMe (Sep 4, 2011)

For what it's worth, I don't like to see any body size disparaged (including thin women) and will speak up when I see it happening. I believe acceptance, by its very nature, needs to include everyone.


----------



## Melian (Sep 4, 2011)

BigBeautifulMe said:


> For what it's worth, I don't like to see any body size disparaged (including thin women) and will speak up when I see it happening. I believe acceptance, by its very nature, needs to include everyone.



Agreed, completely. And it happens so often (I'm talking about real life now, not just this site) that you really have to wonder: how is it anyone's business?


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 4, 2011)

olwen said:


> Sorry, I disagree with you completely. Gender expression is totally related to size. I'm not pear shaped so even if I'm wearing a dress and makeup people will still assume I'm a guy and call me sir. It happens more times than I'd like. For people who aren't attracted to fat people we are all just sexless as far as they are concerned. So this question is a really good one.
> 
> As for why fat women dress down, don't assume it's cause we are all trying to hide. Pretty clothes in plus sizes are difficult to find. They don't sell them in straight size stores and there aren't that many brick and mortar stores that do. As it is Lane Bryant tries to sell a fat girl everything she needs from bras to career clothes, to sportwear separates all in one store where there is limited floor space. Makes for very few options especially if your size isn't there and the clothes don't fit your body very well. How many throw up print polyester skirts does one girl need? None I tell you.



I apologize if my examples didn't actually get across what I was trying to say.I know of some of the difficulties that a bbw will face regularly due to the fact that my wife is one and most of the women in my family that I grew up with are as well. But no, I am no expert by any means but I am familiar with some of the harder aspects. I think we are saying different things though, your post seems to be speaking about attraction and appearance. Femininity or masculinity have nothing to do with that,at least on a generalized basis.That would take place on an individualized basis on what attracts the individual, not the collective. You can be feminine or masculine at any size. That was what I was trying to get across with my poor examples.



CastingPearls said:


> *I think perhaps your assumptions about why a bbw dresses or styles her hair is because you pay more attention to the bigger woman.* There are PLENTY of thin women who don't dress to entice a man, don't even care about a personal style and even have their own interpretation of femininity. How do we tie that into confidence? Is the thin woman who is wearing scrubs or a grubby uniform running through the supermarket someone who has poor self-esteem? Bad attitude? Then why assume it for the fat woman?
> 
> *And why does a thread about masculinity have to turn into one more opportunity to knock the motives of the bbw and her failings to please potential admirers? It's disingenuous, extremely short-sighted and frankly, overdone and tiresome.*
> 
> ...



In response,first off, again if my piss poor examples were offensive in any way I definitely apologize as it was not my intention. As far as paying
more attention to the bigger ladies I probably do as that is more of what I find attractive, but I will say that as a representative of those of us in touch with our lizard brains I am a horndog of the highest order and I pay attention to all women of all sizes. I am truly an equal opportunity ogler. I just try not to be too creepy about it.

I was not questioning the motives of anyone, I think folks should do whatever makes them happy. At the end of the day that's all that matters. My observations were more of a personal nature of being with what I consider to be a sexy, beautiful woman who alot of the time doesn't feel that way about herself and I hope one day sees herself as I see her.


As far as the rest of your post I think we are saying the same thing, attraction and personal preference are one thing when it comes to size, but masculinity/femininity have nothing to do inherently with size. It is about attitude and the way you carry yourself and can occur on people of all sizes.


----------



## olwen (Sep 4, 2011)

I still disagree with the idea of gender expression not being about attraction or size. I guarantee you that no woman invented high heeled shoes. I'm sure that when men did wear them during the 1600's it was about power over people. The trappings of femininity represent for the most part power over women. They have everything to do with what straight men find attractive. When women are left to themselves and dating other women a lot of them don't bother with makeup, shaving, finger nail polish or anything like that. The ones who do high femme are often making a political statement about the trappings of femininity. If gender expression had nothing to do with size then society at large would not desexualize fat bodies and I would be able to walk into any store and buy feminine clothes and shoes that fit. Furthermore, the absence of fat people in the fashion world and in the media is a signal to people that fat people's bodies don't deserve to be seen, dressed, sexualized and all whatever else. I respect the fact that you are trying to be fair and to connect the dots here in a meaningful way, but there's so much more to gender expression beyond the idea that gender expression is innate no matter what. It's not. It's a social construct. Masculine is not the same as male and feminine is not the same as female.


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 4, 2011)

olwen said:


> I still disagree with the idea of gender expression not being about attraction or size......



So, I'm confused at what you are saying then. Are you saying that only big men can be masculine or that a bbw can be feminine? Because the only point I was trying to make was that you can be a smaller skinnier guy and still be masculine as well as be a big strong man and be more on the feminine side. The same goes for women as well I think.That these traits are not based on size.



olwen said:


> I respect the fact that you are trying to be fair and to connect the dots here in a meaningful way, but there's so much more to gender expression beyond the idea that gender expression is innate no matter what. It's not. It's a social construct. Masculine is not the same as male and feminine is not the same as female.



I can agree with you if you are saying that one can choose to act more feminine or masculine if they so wish. I also agree that masculine doesn't necessarily mean male and vice versa on the fem side too. I have known men and women both over the years that prove that out. But once again I point out that even then it is not necessarily an issue of size.


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

It makes sense to me this way:

Thin people already pass. No one is going to automatically assume a thin person can't display a gender one way or the other. The unconscious thought isn't preformed in a person's mind beforehand. 

The mere presence of fat automatically (and unconsciously) desexualizes. It doesn't matter what the gender expression actually is. Someone who dislikes fat people already thinks fat people are nonpersons. We do not pass and because of this size determines how masculine or feminine a fat person is even while unadorned. 

For thin people, women in particular (at least the ones who worry overmuch about it) a few pounds is the difference between feminine and not feminine. It's the difference between all the things that women do to appear feminine and "letting oneself go." I know I think about this when I get dressed in the morning every day. I know that a tshirt and a pair of jeans on me will not look as feminine as it would on a thin woman. Even if she doesn't have curves she's inherently more feminine than me (according to society at large) by virtue of being thin. 

For a fat man I'm assuming that a thin person who hates fat people will think that how big his moobs are or how big his belly is, is the difference between being seen as weak and soft therefore not masculine (and maybe even more feminine) and strong and powerful. He does not pass. He has to overcome that with attitude and thoughtful styling. 

I'm telling you size matters. I think it only seems like size doesn't matter because it's just something that thin people don't think about when it comes to other thin people unless some other thin person is making a conscious effort to queer gender as in the case of a drag queen/king or an androgynous person, or a tomboy.


----------



## Fat Brian (Sep 5, 2011)

It really seems to keyed on to what a person views as feminine or masculine. If a person thinks that being muscular and fit is masculine and being soft is feminine they will most likely view fat men as feminine and muscular women as masculine. If they think bigness, physical size, is masculine even fat women will appear masculine to them.

Something I've noticed is that some thin women hypersexualize fat womens bodies. This happens to Crystal quite a bit due to her big boobs. She is fat, short, and has H cup boobs, finding shirts and dresses that fit her is very difficult. There are a few thin women where we go to church that if anything Crystal wears shows the slightest bit of boob talk about her like she came in naked. One has even came up to her and tried to adjust her clothes to be more "appropriate". No larger women has ever done this or said anything in regards to Crystals clothing. She also gets inappropriate comments made about her boobs by thin women out in public, just random passersby who cannot help but comment on her body. It's like an odd form of jealousy, women who judge femininity based on breast size are threatened by the big boobs of a woman who society says isn't attractive anyway.

But as a fat guy I can tell you there aren't many out there who consider it masculine.


----------



## The Orange Mage (Sep 5, 2011)

It's all about where the fat is located. If it's upper-body or predominantly belly, then masculine. If more around the butt, hips, and thighs, it's feminine.

If that fat is in the head though, that's definitely masculine!


----------



## BigBeautifulMe (Sep 5, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> If that fat is in the head though, that's definitely masculine!



Funniest comment in the thread.


----------



## LeoGibson (Sep 5, 2011)

@ Olwen, I think I understand where you are coming from now. It seems to me that what you are saying is that a bigger person has to work harder at it because there is already a pre-conceived notion against them. As a fat guy myself I can definitely agree with that.

The only area I think we are in disagreement is that your version of masculinity and femininity seems to be wrapped up in sexuality and that the fatter person has to overcome the pre-conceived notion that they are asexual at best or homosexual at worst due to appearance in the eyes of thinner people. I can see where that would be the case in some instances and definitely can agree that you're not looked at as being "sexy" by the mainstream. I just personally seem to think that one's masculinity or femininity is not tied in to their sexuality.


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> It really seems to keyed on to what a person views as feminine or masculine. If a person thinks that being muscular and fit is masculine and being soft is feminine they will most likely view fat men as feminine and muscular women as masculine. If they think bigness, physical size, is masculine even fat women will appear masculine to them.
> 
> Something I've noticed is that some thin women hypersexualize fat womens bodies. This happens to Crystal quite a bit due to her big boobs. She is fat, short, and has H cup boobs, finding shirts and dresses that fit her is very difficult. There are a few thin women where we go to church that if anything Crystal wears shows the slightest bit of boob talk about her like she came in naked. One has even came up to her and tried to adjust her clothes to be more "appropriate". No larger women has ever done this or said anything in regards to Crystals clothing. She also gets inappropriate comments made about her boobs by thin women out in public, just random passersby who cannot help but comment on her body. It's like an odd form of jealousy, women who judge femininity based on breast size are threatened by the big boobs of a woman who society says isn't attractive anyway.
> 
> But as a fat guy I can tell you there aren't many out there who consider it masculine.



I agree with this. Also, I'm sure a lot of fat women experience what your wife does as far as adjusting clothes goes. I know that happens to me sometimes and it pisses me off. And it's always middle aged thin women who do that. Some woman I don't even know would come behind me and pull my shirt down to cover my butt. The only time I'm ever okay with this behavior is if someone notices a tag is sticking out and puts it back in.


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

The Orange Mage said:


> It's all about where the fat is located. If it's upper-body or predominantly belly, then masculine. If more around the butt, hips, and thighs, it's feminine.
> 
> If that fat is in the head though, that's definitely masculine!


 
Also true.


----------



## Paquito (Sep 5, 2011)

lol no one is accusing me of being masculine.

LOOK AT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE MELIAN

LOOK AT IT


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

LeoGibson said:


> @ Olwen, I think I understand where you are coming from now. It seems to me that what you are saying is that a bigger person has to work harder at it because there is already a pre-conceived notion against them. As a fat guy myself I can definitely agree with that.
> 
> The only area I think we are in disagreement is that your version of masculinity and femininity seems to be wrapped up in sexuality and that the fatter person has to overcome the pre-conceived notion that they are asexual at best or homosexual at worst due to appearance in the eyes of thinner people. I can see where that would be the case in some instances and definitely can agree that you're not looked at as being "sexy" by the mainstream. I just personally seem to think that one's masculinity or femininity is not tied in to their sexuality.



I find it difficult to divorce sexuality from gender expression. I think if a straight guy thinks I'm not feminine he's not going to be interested. Even if I'm not doing high femme and being "natural" I think if he doesn't see something feminine about me he's going to automatically put me in the friend zone. Not feminine = not attractive. 

Since I work for a feminist organization and the floor our office is on shares space with the gay and lesbian organization for the university, I'll be able to ask a bunch of people about this next week...I'm assuming gender expression is very tied up in their sexuality but, I could be wrong about that, and I'm wondering how much this matters to them since they can sort of circumvent gender expression if they find it limiting or irrelevant to some degree. Like I've noticed that butch lesbians tend to go after lipstick lesbians, but I don't know if this means that other butches would be off limits so to speak for them. But then there are lesbians who are just generally feminine and don't care whether their partners are butch or not or trans or not. How much of this has to do with sexual orientation on a macro level and how much of it has to do with it on a micro level? It's funny too. I think about this subject a lot but it's never occurred to me to have this kind of discussion with my GLBTQ coworkers.

ETA: Yes Leo, the first part of your post is exactly what I'm saying.


----------



## EvilPrincess (Sep 5, 2011)

Moving on out to the lounge........... Enjoy!


----------



## MillyLittleMonster (Sep 5, 2011)

Feminists as in women who got hurt by one man and immediately think every other man on the planet is the same? 

If that's the case it would be unwise to ask them if fat men are more masculine.


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

MillyLittleMonster said:


> Feminists as in women who got hurt by one man and immediately think every other man on the planet is the same?
> 
> If that's the case it would be unwise to ask them if fat men are more masculine.



So you see the word feminist and assume it means man hating she monster? Did you even bother to read the responses in this thread?


----------



## Fat Brian (Sep 5, 2011)

MillyLittleMonster said:


> Feminists as in women who got hurt by one man and immediately think every other man on the planet is the same?
> 
> If that's the case it would be unwise to ask them if fat men are more masculine.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

olwen said:


> So you see the word feminist and assume it means man hating she monster? Did you even bother to read the responses in this thread?



Oh, I don't know. I'm a feminist and I just despise men. I only hang out with them to learn how their nefarious little minds work, and I'm not having sex with them. I'm grudge fucking them.


----------



## ConnieLynn (Sep 5, 2011)

I only fuck feminists.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

ConnieLynn said:


> I only fuck feminists.



You busy later?


----------



## ConnieLynn (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> You busy later?



Will you whisper sweet man hating words into my ear?


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> Oh, I don't know. I'm a feminist and I just despise men. I only hang out with them to learn how their nefarious little minds work, and I'm not having sex with them. I'm grudge fucking them.



Oh, you shouldn't be fucking them, you should be enslaving them so we can begin the top secret plan to turn the world into a gynocracy. All hail the mighty uterus!


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

ConnieLynn said:


> Will you whisper sweet man hating words into my ear?



All night long


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

olwen said:


> Oh, you shouldn't be fucking them, you should be enslaving them so we can begin the top secret plan to turn the world into a gynocracy. All hail the mighty uterus!



Can I grudge fuck them after we enslave them? I mean we've got to carry on the species somehow.


----------



## olwen (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> Can I grudge fuck them after we enslave them? I mean we've got to carry on the species somehow.



Absolutely not! We hate them remember? In vitro fertlization from here on out. But tell ya what, you are now the director of the ministry of fertilization. Slavery is freedom. If they don't comply in the manner you dictate, you can begin a rehabilitation program. And by rehabilitate, I mean castrate. Cause what other purpose could they possibly serve if they can't reproduce? Uterine power now and forever!


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

Woo hoo! I've always wanted to get to decided who reproduces and who doesn't!


----------



## SlightlyMorbid (Sep 5, 2011)

Melian said:


> The part that tends to bother people, is when the loving of fat people is peppered with the hating of thin people.



This. I know how a lot of you may have been humiliated/bullied/stomped into the ground/beaten up/whatever else because you are fat.

But seriously why is it that when I'm talking with someone (whether it's business, casual or friendship related) who is fat/chubby/whatever, they always give me this look of contempt of, "I know you're thinking I'm a fat disgusting cow and talk nasty shit about me later."

Just an FYI: I. Don't.

Just because someone else made your life a living hell, you don't need to get all uppity and snide with me just because another thin woman made your life a hell in the past.

It doesn't mean that I have done so or intend to do so.


----------



## LovelyLiz (Sep 5, 2011)

SlightlyMorbid said:


> This. I know how a lot of you may have been humiliated/bullied/stomped into the ground/beaten up/whatever else because you are fat.
> 
> But seriously why is it that when I'm talking with someone (whether it's business, casual or friendship related) who is fat/chubby/whatever, they always give me this look of contempt of, "I know you're thinking I'm a fat disgusting cow and talk nasty shit about me later."
> 
> ...



I also think disparaging people of any body type is wrong and should be called out.

That said...this seems like a pretty calloused response. I'm sorry that some fat people have been closed off or defensive around you and that it's felt unfair to you...but it seems like you're being pretty cavalier about whatever pain or "living hell" they had to endure in their lives. If you really want to be someone who is a kind presence instead of a mean one (to fat people or anybody) that you would want to understand where they're coming from and prove yourself to be a decent person, instead of needing them to just trust you from the jump. (I think most people, fat or thin, take time to trust someone...for the record. I've met just as many thin people with defensive chips on their shoulders.)

And it's strange to me that EVERY fat person you ever deal with gives you a look of contempt. And if they do, it's worth looking at whether there's a way you also might be contributing to that dynamic. I interact with thin people all the time - and I don't make these kinds of assumptions about almost any of them. If that thought does cross my mind (which again, is close to never), it's not because they're thin, but it may be because they are engaging with me in a way that feels off in some way.


----------



## SlightlyMorbid (Sep 5, 2011)

mcbeth said:


> I also think disparaging people of any body type is wrong and should be called out.
> 
> That said...this seems like a pretty calloused response. I'm sorry that some fat people have been closed off or defensive around you and that it's felt unfair to you...but it seems like you're being pretty cavalier about whatever pain or "living hell" they had to endure in their lives. If you really want to be someone who is a kind presence instead of a mean one (to fat people or anybody) that you would want to understand where they're coming from and prove yourself to be a decent person, instead of needing them to just trust you from the jump. (I think most people, fat or thin, take time to trust someone...for the record. I've met just as many thin people with defensive chips on their shoulders.)
> 
> And it's strange to me that EVERY fat person you ever deal with gives you a look of contempt. And if they do, it's worth looking at whether there's a way you also might be contributing to that dynamic. I interact with thin people all the time - and I don't make these kinds of assumptions about almost any of them. If that thought does cross my mind (which again, is close to never), it's not because they're thin, but it may be because they are engaging with me in a way that feels off in some way.



Well, that's the thing, it's not really that I talk to them with this intention of, "like me like me like me!" or some sort of pitying way or this way of, "I'm talking to you because I want to prove that thin people can be nice to fat people."

And I don't notice it all the time and it's mostly casual talk (depending on the situation) but meh, it's something I've noticed a few times.


----------



## CastingPearls (Sep 5, 2011)

SlightlyMorbid said:


> Well, that's the thing, it's not really that I talk to them with this intention of, "like me like me like me!" or some sort of pitying way or this way of, "I'm talking to you because I want to prove that thin people can be nice to fat people."
> 
> And I don't notice it all the time and it's mostly casual talk (depending on the situation) but meh, it's something I've noticed a few times.


Have you ever considered that people of any size may object to you not because you're thin and they're fat but because you may just be abrasive?


----------



## KittyKitten (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm just trying to figure out why this thread was moved from FA/FFA forums to the Lounge while the other one asking 'do you find fat women more feminine?' stayed over there.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out why this thread was moved from FA/FFA forums to the Lounge while the other one asking 'do you find fat women more feminine?' stayed over there.



I also wondered why the other one was restricted to men only, and we girls had to share this thread with the hairy ones. Ours is not to question, etc.


----------



## Fat Brian (Sep 5, 2011)

It's most likely due to how this thread was intended to be a nonsense thread, poking fun at the premise of the other thread. Even if the original thread asks its question in a distasteful way it still can be of interest to some FAs and is on a protected board.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> It's most likely due to how this thread was intended to be a nonsense thread, poking fun at the premise of the other thread. Even if the original thread asks its question in a distasteful way it still can be of interest to some FAs and is on a protected board.



And it remains a distasteful thread where women can't defend themselves because men are too sensitive to be forced to deal with the consequences of what they say.


----------



## tonynyc (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> And it remains a distasteful thread where women can't defend themselves because men are too sensitive to be forced to deal with the consequences of what they say.



*W*ell there's always Hyde Park ..and you have *some *folks that deal with what they "post" and those that don't regardless of gender.....


----------



## Fat Brian (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> And it remains a distasteful thread where women can't defend themselves because men are too sensitive to be forced to deal with the consequences of what they say.



I'm not defending it, I was only giving a possible reason for the move. As to the too sensitive part, thats life with the protected boards. Its a balance between allowing some uncouth posters a chance to express themselves and trying to have discussions about topics that interest the various participating groups.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> I'm not defending it, I was only giving a possible reason for the move. As to the too sensitive part, thats life with the protected boards. Its a balance between allowing some uncouth posters a chance to express themselves and trying to have discussions about topics that interest the various participating groups.



I mostly get that, but I don't have to like it!

And Tony, Hyde Park scares me. I think it foreshadows the end.


----------



## tonynyc (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> I mostly get that, but I don't have to like it!
> 
> And Tony, Hyde Park scares me. I think it foreshadows the end.



*I think you could kick ass in Hyde Park *


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> *I think you could kick ass in Hyde Park *



Maybe, but I also think it would be a good way to get myself banned.


----------



## Fat Brian (Sep 5, 2011)

I understand, most of my infractions have come from there.


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

Fat Brian said:


> I understand, most of my infractions have come from there.



And if you're getting infractions, I have no chance, given my proclivity for telling people off when I get frustrated with them.


----------



## tonynyc (Sep 5, 2011)

Diana_Prince245 said:


> And if you're getting infractions, I have no chance, given my proclivity for telling people off when I get frustrated with them.



Then you need to channel the Wisdom of Athena ... and at the end of the day some folks need a good verbal lashing....


----------



## Diana_Prince245 (Sep 5, 2011)

tonynyc said:


> Then you need to channel the Wisdom of Athena ... and at the end of the day some folks need a good verbal lashing....



Athena tells me it's wise to stay the f*** out of Hyde Park


----------



## Melian (Sep 6, 2011)

happyface83 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out why this thread was moved from FA/FFA forums to the Lounge while the other one asking 'do you find fat women more feminine?' stayed over there.



Well, now let's all just caption our cats and stfu. Apparently, our point doesn't matter, but the same point with reversed gender is some serious shit.

So serious, in fact, that women aren't even allowed to comment on it. Our small brains don't have the processing power :S


----------



## Fox (Sep 6, 2011)

Melian said:


> Well, now let's all just caption our cats and stfu. Apparently, our point doesn't matter, but the same point with reversed gender is some serious shit.
> 
> So serious, in fact, that women aren't even allowed to comment on it. Our small brains don't have the processing power :S



Perhaps that's because the first female poster in the subject bashed the OP for his opinion and the moderators felt like that had to take action. Either way, it's a pretty messy event.

Honestly, I do not understand all these forum restrictions when it comes to posting. I think that the people of this site should be allowed to share their feelings on topics they feel concern them. I'm getting tired of all the unnecessary drama and bottled feelings I see on this site. It's not healthy, and I'm sure there's a better way to achieve a strong and supportive community.


----------



## Melian (Sep 6, 2011)

Fox said:


> Perhaps that's because the first female poster in the subject bashed the OP for his opinion and the moderators felt like that had to take action. Either way, it's a pretty messy event.
> 
> Honestly, I do not understand all these forum restrictions when it comes to posting. I think that the people of this site should be allowed to share their feelings on topics they feel concern them. I'm getting tired of all the unnecessary drama and bottled feelings I see on this site. It's not healthy, and I'm sure there's a better way to achieve a strong and supportive community.



Could be...oh well. I guess it's just the internets, in the end.


----------

