# Objectification?



## olwen (Mar 1, 2010)

Given all the hoopla in the lovely ladies thread here on the BBW board, I'm honestly starting to wonder what exactly ojbectification is truly and why so many women here seem to see it everywhere. 

I think objectification happens when someone is trying to get something out of you (whether sexual or economic) from you without respect or concern for you feelings or needs. You can be objectified whether you are aware of it or not, whether you agree to it or not (as the case with porn may be). You can be a willing victim or not. You can be objectified (as in a relationship) in a good way too.

But is there ever a gray area? Is it really objectification is no one is abused or taken advantage of for it?

And lastly as in the context of this forum I am interested in hearing what the participants here consider to be ojectification when it comes from men and when it comes from women, or is there just no difference to some and if so why?


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## mossystate (Mar 1, 2010)

The ' hoopla ' as you put it, was not defined the same way by all the people who took issue with it ( does not count the others who never typed a response ). I did not see ' objectification '. I think it is pretty unfortunate that you are trying to make some of the women here look like something they are not. By saying, " see it everywhere ", you are being very snotty, and as a mod, I don't think you should be using this space like that. You want responses, after you have just reduced feelings. Nice. A_ real_ conversation about objectification can't start by telling people they are wrong.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't see it as objectification. Given the context of the thread, though ... it seemed pretty clearly inappropriate to me. It felt like a huge slap in the face, actually. The thread was started for an unspoken but plainly obvious purpose. Admiring each other's T&A wasn't one of them. And my take on it was that it was a cleverly double-edged taunt -- as in, anyone who doesn't see the "humor" in it must therefore lack a sense of humor.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 1, 2010)

I guess I don't enjoy having valid concerns reduced to "hoopla". When I feel that a question of this nature is asked in seriousness, I'm happy to answer. In the meantime, I guess I'll just take my oversensitive self to another part of the website.

Who'd have thought it, though, that women would feel unsupported on the BBW Board. Huh. Crazy times.


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## butch (Mar 1, 2010)

In Olwen's defense, that thread was my tipping point into not being a BBW mod anymore, so 'hoopla' may have been just the right word.


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## Shosh (Mar 1, 2010)

I found myself being objectified one night when I went to a pub with a friend, and men were calling out " Show us yer tits" It was just awful. I felt like a slab of meat.

I agree that objectification is usually from somebody trying to gain sexual or economic advantage.

It does not feel good.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 1, 2010)

butch said:


> In Olwen's defense, that thread was my tipping point into not being a BBW mod anymore, so 'hoopla' may have been just the right word.



I musta missed a lot of "hoopla" then, because all I saw was people respectfully wording their response to what seemed to be a taunt. That's why I asked the question I did --because I was unsure how to take it. Unfortunately, what I got in response was instead a lecture. How refreshing.

I guess I just see women as so much more than just pieces parts or fat. I see us as living, breathing, thinking, feeling, passionate beings whose _full _womanhood should be celebrated. When someone says about a woman, "She has a great ass" she is reduced, however unintentionally, to a piece of meat. It's just not my thing. If it works for others, that's great. But I'm still going to express my feelings about such a comment, because I think it devalues us as a group. I expect such behavior on the Weight Board or the Paysite Board. But here? I guess I expected so much more from the women here (and isn't that an irony, given the thread title...)


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## mossystate (Mar 1, 2010)

butch said:


> In Olwen's defense, that thread was my tipping point into not being a BBW mod anymore, so 'hoopla' may have been just the right word.



Butch, guess it was the right word...for you. Others are saying it's not...for them. How many times have we seen complaints that some people only come to a forum to deposit something maybe not so wonderful. Lots. It is just very disingenuous, no matter the ' explanations '.


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## littlefairywren (Mar 1, 2010)

I did not take the two posts on the lovely ladies thread as objectification, but it was very disappointing to see that it took that turn. I was enjoying the thread for it's original purpose, a celebration of the women who are a part of Dims (not their bodies). 

Flip the coin, and imagine the men congratulating each other for their pecs and "packages", in a thread about the appreciation for men/FA's/BHM. Sure it may sound funny to some, and I do have a sense of humour, but it taints the spirit of it's true intention.


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## butch (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't believe I objected to anyone saying their piece about the posts in question. My actions aren't about people speaking up, but about a fundamental difference in how I see genders and bodies, and how many of the participants of this forum see those things. I felt it was in my best interest, as well as the best interest for this board, if I stepped away, since I can no longer match my own philosophies with the requirements of those who use it.

I feel bad about stepping down and leaving Olwen and Tina with more responsibilites, which is how I looked at Olwen's use of 'hoopla,' that it was directed at my response, not the responses of those in the OP.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 1, 2010)

butch said:


> I don't believe I objected to anyone saying their piece about the posts in question. My actions aren't about people speaking up, but about a fundamental difference in how I see genders and bodies, and how many of the participants of this forum see those things. I felt it was in my best interest, as well as the best interest for this board, if I stepped away, since I can no longer match my own philosophies with the requirements of those who use it.
> 
> I feel bad about stepping down and leaving Olwen and Tina with more responsibilites, which is how I looked at Olwen's use of 'hoopla,' that it was directed at my response, not the responses of those in the OP.



Ah. Okay. Got it. Thanks for 'splanation.

I think you're awesome, by the way. Just sayin'.


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## butch (Mar 2, 2010)

Miss Vickie said:


> Ah. Okay. Got it. Thanks for 'splanation.
> 
> I think you're awesome, by the way. Just sayin'.



Thank you, that means a lot. I hope you know the feeling is mutual. :bow:


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## olwen (Mar 2, 2010)

Look, it is not my intention to reduce anyone's concerns about how they see their bodies. 

The reason I used the word hoopla is because it seemed to me to be the culmination of a lot of discord, all over the boards of late, not just here and yes, I had Butch in mind when I used that word too. 

I started this thread in an effort to find out why any mention of women's sexuality seems to upset some of you so much. I'm frustrated by what seems to me to sometimes be an extreme point of view. So If my definition of objectification doesn't seem to mean what other people think it means, then I'd like to know just what it means? There has to be some kind of balance here.


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## Shosh (Mar 2, 2010)

I think AM and Cranky were just exchanging light hearted banter.

Maybe it belonged elsewhere other than that particular thread, but do we have to make such a federal case of it?


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## BubbleButtBabe (Mar 2, 2010)

^^^ Is this a reply to what I posted to steely because if it is I didn't make a federal case out of it...I simply asked her if she thought it wouldn't happen,I figured it would and I really figured it would be sooner to tell you the truth..I expect no less then something like that on any of these forums...


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## Shosh (Mar 2, 2010)

BubbleButtBabe said:


> ^^^ Is this a reply to what I posted to steely because if it is I didn't make a federal case out of it...I simply asked her if she thought it wouldn't happen,I figured it would and I really figured it would be sooner to tell you the truth..I expect no less then something like that on any of these forums...



I expect nothing less than some here making an issue out of absolutely everything.

It was nothing, just banter between two friends.


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## BubbleButtBabe (Mar 2, 2010)

The banter between friends is to be expected in all of these threads..It is the way of internet boards..Like I said I figured it would have happened sooner...I am surprised there hasn't been some sort of pic put in there as well...

I am not making an issue out of anything..I am just saying what I see..You are the one that seems to want to make an issue out of it..


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## Shosh (Mar 2, 2010)

BubbleButtBabe said:


> The banter between friends is to be expected in all of these threads..It is the way of internet boards..Like I said I figured it would have happened sooner...I am surprised there hasn't been some sort of pic put in there as well...
> 
> I am not making an issue out of anything..I am just saying what I see..You are the one that seems to want to make an issue out of it..



I am not referencing you in particular, just the tone that these forums have taken on in general.

Some things are worth fighting for, but making such a huge deal out of what was lighthearted exchange between mates is overkill.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 2, 2010)

Cranky and Ann Marie are very close and seems to me were just joking. It made me laugh. I don't get people being upset. ??


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## MisticalMisty (Mar 2, 2010)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Cranky and Ann Marie are very close and seems to me were just joking. It made me laugh. I don't get people being upset. ??



Well..because that seems to be the theme lately. There's no place for lighthearted anything. 

It's not like two guys went into the thread making comments... that would be inappropriate.

It's unfortunate that we take things way too seriously these day. It's unfortunate that we take such issue with..everything.

I think this is why there isn't more participation on this board. Eh..those are my thoughts.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 2, 2010)

butch said:


> Thank you, that means a lot. I hope you know the feeling is mutual. :bow:



Well I didn't... but now I do. Thank you! :smitten:



olwen said:


> Look, it is not my intention to reduce anyone's concerns about how they see their bodies.
> 
> The reason I used the word hoopla is because it seemed to me to be the culmination of a lot of discord, all over the boards of late, not just here and yes, I had Butch in mind when I used that word too.



Ah, okay. See I guess I missed the other discord. I was only responding to what was said in the other thread. Period. I have no idea what inspired their comments, which is why I asked. It just seemed... discordant, I guess... with the spirit of the thread which is celebrating women as women, not body parts, something we see so much of on the other forums. I'm still not so sure I buy that the remarks were as innocent as they said, but... whatever. I have too much going on to pursue this discussion, nor can I address all the comments which are "piling on", other to say that each of us has hot buttons that may upset us and not other people. As women (!), I'd like to think that we could support each other's passions and issues, and not belittle them. Particularly in what was supposed to be a protected space.

But I guess not, eh?



> I started this thread in an effort to find out why any mention of women's sexuality seems to upset some of you so much. I'm frustrated by what seems to me to sometimes be an extreme point of view.



Seriously? You think this is about women's sexuality? Oh, Olwen, no no no. That is so very much not what this is about, and the fact that you think so means that either I've expressed myself poorly or you didn't read my previous posts on the subject, both of which are entirely possible.

I _celebrate_ women's sexuality. Given the wide range of sexual experiences I've had, the idea that I'd be prudish about women's sexuality is funny. Do you know that on this very site I caught shit because of my sexual history, and one member even told me I was unfit to care for laboring women because of my experiences with other women? I was accused of all kinds of things, some beyond the pale, and was even given the moniker "Sirenslut" back in the day. *laugh*

So no, women's sexuality doesn't bother me at all. Quite the contrary: I love seeing my sisters getting their groove on. But what does bother me is watching women being reduced to body parts to be ogled and fondled, without taking into account the entire wonderfulness of that woman -- her thoughts, her feelings, her desires, her fantasies, her sexual needs. It's like reducing men to a dick or an ass, something I've spoken out against as well. 

That, dear Olwen, is what I feel so strongly about. To me, it's perpetuating the same, tired old perception of a woman as an object of someone else's desire. That attitude, of a woman as an object (hence the term "objectification") is the very antithesis of celebrating her sexuality.

So now you know.


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 2, 2010)

olwen said:


> Given all the hoopla in the lovely ladies thread here on the BBW board, I'm honestly starting to wonder what exactly ojbectification is truly and why so many women here seem to see it everywhere.
> 
> I think objectification happens when someone is trying to get something out of you (whether sexual or economic) from you without respect or concern for you feelings or needs. You can be objectified whether you are aware of it or not, whether you agree to it or not (as the case with porn may be). You can be a willing victim or not. You can be objectified (as in a relationship) in a good way too.
> 
> ...



Objectification to me means being stripped of your humanity or having your humanity completely ignored. It's being reduced to nothing more than an object for physical or visual satisfaction. A general observation or commentary on what is appealing doesn't usually strike me as objectifying. There's a fine line though. Sometimes I feel that the world's obsession with the private lives and appearance of celebrities is objectifying.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 2, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> I don't see it as objectification. Given the context of the thread, though ... it seemed pretty clearly inappropriate to me. It felt like a huge slap in the face, actually. The thread was started for an unspoken but plainly obvious purpose. Admiring each other's T&A wasn't one of them. And my take on it was that it was a cleverly double-edged taunt -- as in, anyone who doesn't see the "humor" in it must therefore lack a sense of humor.



Know what TraciJo? That bullshit was all my own fault.....didn't realize I had to spell it out to avoid true ignorance....thought my intent was quite clear.

Yeah, I took the whole thing as intentionally shitting all over the thread but next time I will make stricter "rules" in the OP. Matter of fact, I'm thinking I need to PM one of the mods now to change the OP to make it much clearer so that kind of "playfulness" doesn't happen again. 
It was an important thread to me.

Thanks so effing much.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 2, 2010)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Know what TraciJo? That bullshit was all my own fault.....didn't realize I had to spell it out to avoid true ignorance....thought my intent was quite clear.
> 
> Yeah, I took the whole thing as intentionally shitting all over the thread but next time I will make stricter "rules" in the OP. Matter of fact, I'm thinking I need to PM one of the mods now to change the OP to make it much clearer so that kind of "playfulness" doesn't happen again.
> It was an important thread to me.
> ...


 
GEF, I didn't think that it was appropriate - on that, you and I agree. In strict terms of whether it was actual objectification (as I define the term, anyway), it didn't really meet that criteria. But I do understand your frustration, and I share it. Like I said, I was reading the thread and actually felt GOOD about something at Dims for once -- then to see those comments, when everywhere else it seems nothing but T&A and worship to the exclusion of all else, therein -- yeah. Unwelcome. I got your frustration. Believe me, I did.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 2, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> GEF, I didn't think that it was appropriate - on that, you and I agree. In strict terms of whether it was actual objectification (as I define the term, anyway), it didn't really meet that criteria. But I do understand your frustration, and I share it. Like I said, I was reading the thread and actually felt GOOD about something at Dims for once -- then to see those comments, when everywhere else it seems nothing but T&A and worship to the exclusion of all else, therein -- yeah. Unwelcome. I got your frustration. Believe me, I did.



It wasn't about "objectification" at all, IMO. It was about mocking the women on the boards. What a wonderful place to choose and do that. Funny, I don't recall seeing anyone taking a dump in the men's appreciation thread.


ETA: One of the mods is going to change the OP for me.


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## Shosh (Mar 2, 2010)

I have you on my list in your thread Greenie.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 2, 2010)

Shosh said:


> I have you on my list in your thread Greenie.




Awww thank you Shosh 
You're a sweetie.....and your pretty dog, too!


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## CrankySpice (Mar 2, 2010)

Actually, I think I could pretty much start this with any mention of "issues" and end it with "since I know you all are very sensitive about that kind of thing...well, except when you do it, in which case it's fine." So rather than say it each and every time, I'll just recommend anyone reading this thread to automatically add it to the end of any kind of statement about behavior/attitude/postings/etc. It'll save me oodles of typing time, so thank you in advance.

I'm really surprised that a single line comment was able to affect your mood/self-esteem regarding an entire thread. I really didn't think you all were so...delicate. Sensitive, yes, I know, LORDY, do I know - but delicate was not an attribute I'd have assigned to any of you particularly.

I'm also surprised that you all put so much support behind a popularity contest thread because, in the past, I know that's been a very sore issue, something I know you all are very sensit...see above.

Also, way to take an opportunity to air your issues, as generously asked to do by the mods of this board, and shit on it from the get-go. Nice. Are you really surprised there's never a satisfactory resolution with that kind of nit-picky, anger-laden response to an offer to discuss an issue instead of sweeping under the rug? Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Goodness, the life of a mod is not easy. Why, I wouldn't be surprised if they started stealth......nevermind. Don't need that can of worms.


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## Buffie (Mar 2, 2010)

I think I might be living in rainbow cupcake fantasy land. 

Seems like a lot of the things that most people find offensive fly right over my head until someone points out that they were offended or hurt, whether offense was the intention or not.

I think misunderstanding and some different perspectives are at work here and there was never any malice intended. True, that's just an opinion but I totally believe it's the reality of the situation... that nothing hurtful was intended at all. 

Isn't objectification ultimately in the eye of the potentially objectified person? Maybe there are general aspects of it the majority of us agree on but I doubt any two of us will have the exact same definition of what it means to be objectified. Just like a lot of us obviously have different levels of sensitivity and different points of view on what is appropriate or funny. Great minds don't necessarily think alike after all...


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 3, 2010)

Buffie is one smart cookie.





And an awesome set tits! And you know I mean that with love and envy. :bow:


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 3, 2010)

CrankySpice said:


> Actually, I think I could pretty much start this with any mention of "issues" and end it with "since I know you all are very sensitive about that kind of thing...well, except when you do it, in which case it's fine." So rather than say it each and every time, I'll just recommend anyone reading this thread to automatically add it to the end of any kind of statement about behavior/attitude/postings/etc. It'll save me oodles of typing time, so thank you in advance.
> 
> I'm really surprised that a single line comment was able to affect your mood/self-esteem regarding an entire thread. I really didn't think you all were so...delicate. Sensitive, yes, I know, LORDY, do I know - but delicate was not an attribute I'd have assigned to any of you particularly.
> 
> ...


 
*Originally Posted by TraciJo67*
*And my take on it was that it was a cleverly double-edged taunt -- as in, anyone who doesn't see the "humor" in it must therefore lack a sense of humor*

Well, I called that one. 

My mood is fine, if a little tired. My self-esteem is largely intact, but thanks for the concern. 

Now, if you’ll read what I actually said, you’ll note that I didn’t attack you, your character, or your motives. I was very careful, in fact, to say only how I felt after reading it, as well as how I perceived it &#8211; perception being, as we all know, a rather subjective thing. I don’t know what motivated you to post what you did, I only know that reading it on the BBW Forum felt uncomfortable. 

I didn’t see GEF’s thread as a popularity contest, although I’ve never actually **had** any quibbles with them, either. I avoid them, because they really aren’t my thing. But this thread wasn’t about who is the most popular. We have a REP system for that, right? And by that measure, I’m very popular indeed. Speaking of REP, I have to wonder why so many of those occupying the upper echelon are so strangely silent nowadays. At some point, a lot of people seemed to think that they had some very interesting things to say. When did that change? I’d guess that some just grew weary of hearing the “don’t like it, leave” mantra. Such a buttery phrase that can so readily be spread over any and all manner of objection, and when lathered thickly enough, sufficiently covers what lies beneath. 

Oh, well. CrankySpice, I’m sure that you’d make a fine addition to the Dims moderating team. And by this time next year, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see your name occupying the top spot in Ye Olde Dims pecking order.


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 3, 2010)

CrankySpice said:


> Actually, I think I could pretty much start this with any mention of "issues" and end it with "since I know you all are very sensitive about that kind of thing...well, except when you do it, in which case it's fine." So rather than say it each and every time, I'll just recommend anyone reading this thread to automatically add it to the end of any kind of statement about behavior/attitude/postings/etc. It'll save me oodles of typing time, so thank you in advance.
> 
> I'm really surprised that a single line comment was able to affect your mood/self-esteem regarding an entire thread. I really didn't think you all were so...delicate. Sensitive, yes, I know, LORDY, do I know - but delicate was not an attribute I'd have assigned to any of you particularly.
> 
> ...



I simply hate hate hate hate threads like those and see them as being just as bad as the ones that ask for the best tits and ass. They ALL fucking suck for the same reason. I broke my own rule by going over and looking at it simply to see what you and AM wrote that was so demoralizing to people. In the process I noticed that I was mentioned a few times and I'm truly truly grateful and thankful to the people who took the time to do so. Though I deeply appreciate those gestures, I still feel that overall threads like that are destructive for the same reason the 'cutest belly' ones are. Anyone who didn't make either of those lists will clearly have to wait for the 'most unremarkable person' thread to be appreciated. If the T&A threads are objectifying then the others are just as much in my opinion, and for the same reasons. Honestly those threads really make me sad when I imagine all the people who weren't mentioned there and probably should have been. That would likely include everyone for one attribute or another. I just find the whole thing bothersome and it does promote an upper class like atmosphere no matter how much we insist on denying it. 

But I'm very sensitive about that kind of thing as you know.


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## CrankySpice (Mar 3, 2010)

TraciJo67 said:


> *
> 
> Oh, well. CrankySpice, I’m sure that you’d make a fine addition to the Dims moderating team.*


*

Believe me, I have absolutely zero interest in being a moderator. I don't think I'd be one even if it *was* a paid position, and money is tight in this household. As much as I enjoy opening threads that I know will only making my eyeballs pop and my head spin, at least I have the luxury of making that choice.*


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## CrankySpice (Mar 3, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I simply hate hate hate hate threads like those and see them as being just as bad as the ones that ask for the best tits and ass. They ALL fucking suck for the same reason. I broke my own rule by going over and looking at it simply to see what you and AM wrote that was so demoralizing to people. In the process I noticed that I was mentioned a few times and I'm truly truly grateful and thankful to the people who took the time to do so. Though I deeply appreciate those gestures, I still feel that overall threads like that are destructive for the same reason the 'cutest belly' ones are. Anyone who didn't make either of those lists will clearly have to wait for the 'most unremarkable person' thread to be appreciated. If the T&A threads are objectifying then the others are just as much in my opinion, and for the same reasons. Honestly those threads really make me sad when I imagine all the people who weren't mentioned there and probably should have been. That would likely include everyone for one attribute or another. I just find the whole thing bothersome and it does promote an upper class like atmosphere no matter how much we insist on denying it.
> 
> But I'm very sensitive about that kind of thing as you know.



I completely agree on your overall assessment and your last line made me LOL. Fer reals!


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 3, 2010)

CrankySpice said:


> I'm really surprised that a single line comment was able to affect your mood/self-esteem regarding an entire thread. I really didn't think you all were so...delicate. Sensitive, yes, I know, LORDY, do I know - but delicate was not an attribute I'd have assigned to any of you particularly.



Well no wonder you're surprised, because the truth is... it didn't. (See, I was surprised too, to know that you know my thoughts and feelings apparently far better than I know my own). But in case you're interested in the truth, I'm far too busy with my nursing work, graduate school and my children to have my mood or self esteem affected by what goes on here. I wonder why you would think otherwise? What was it in my word choice that would make you think it would ruin my day or self esteem? And further, what was it that I wrote that could inspire such a venomous response? I'll put in more plainly -- Who pissed in _your _Cheerios?

Yes, I had an opinion about your post on the other thread, and yes I expressed it thoughtfully and respectfully. I regret nothing about my posts on this subject, and I did ask what your intention was, rather than make assumptions. Would that you'd been half as courteous to those of us who wondered about the posts.



> I'm also surprised that you all put so much support behind a popularity contest thread because, in the past, I know that's been a very sore issue, something I know you all are very sensit...see above.



Wow, again... thanks for telling me what I/we/The Borg think. I really had no idea I had issues with popularity contests. How odd, since I don't think I've expressed one negative word about them. Can you tell me what color I'm wearing today, too? (That's unfair... it's purple... it's almost always purple...)



> Also, way to take an opportunity to air your issues, as generously asked to do by the mods of this board, and shit on it from the get-go. Nice.



Actually, I stopped posting about it immediately after we were asked to stop. I only participated in this thread -- whose topic is, incidentally, objectification if you're interested in staying on topic -- because the question was posed. I was happy -- am happy -- to let it to. I spoke my peace and am done. The only reason I'm writing this is because you so cleverly called me out. I figured either you wanted an answer, or attention, or both. So here you go. You're getting both. Did it make your day? Yeah? Great!

I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't have time for this game playing, and this will be my last post to unless you choose to address me directly and respectfully.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 3, 2010)

LillyBBBW said:


> I simply hate hate hate hate threads like those and see them as being just as bad as the ones that ask for the best tits and ass. They ALL fucking suck for the same reason. I broke my own rule by going over and looking at it simply to see what you and AM wrote that was so demoralizing to people. In the process I noticed that I was mentioned a few times and I'm truly truly grateful and thankful to the people who took the time to do so. Though I deeply appreciate those gestures, I still feel that overall threads like that are destructive for the same reason the 'cutest belly' ones are. Anyone who didn't make either of those lists will clearly have to wait for the 'most unremarkable person' thread to be appreciated. If the T&A threads are objectifying then the others are just as much in my opinion, and for the same reasons. Honestly those threads really make me sad when I imagine all the people who weren't mentioned there and probably should have been. That would likely include everyone for one attribute or another. I just find the whole thing bothersome and it does promote an upper class like atmosphere no matter how much we insist on denying it.
> 
> But I'm very sensitive about that kind of thing as you know.



Actually Lilly, never meant for it to be a "list the most popular" type of thread but what I said in the OP....appreciating the women of the forums. I saw some people making lists.....and that was okay with me simply because some people just want to name a few. Others, like myself, don't mind speaking in more generalized terms. 



CrankySpice said:


> Actually, I think I could pretty much start this with any mention of "issues" and end it with "since I know you all are very sensitive about that kind of thing...well, except when you do it, in which case it's fine." So rather than say it each and every time, I'll just recommend anyone reading this thread to automatically add it to the end of any kind of statement about behavior/attitude/postings/etc. It'll save me oodles of typing time, so thank you in advance.
> 
> I'm really surprised that a single line comment was able to affect your mood/self-esteem regarding an entire thread. I really didn't think you all were so...delicate. Sensitive, yes, I know, LORDY, do I know - but delicate was not an attribute I'd have assigned to any of you particularly.
> 
> ...



Didn't really expect anything else from you but yet another cranky post. You never disappoint. People who are angry all the time strike me as being rather overly- sensitive. 

Nice to see you say others are shitting on this thread.....kind of like what you did to mine. Telling others to be respectful to when you haven't shown any is ironic, at best. 

Say whatever you want to the contraire, I have seen way too many negative, angry posts from you to think otherwise.


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## Buffie (Mar 3, 2010)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Buffie is one smart cookie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heck woman, go buy some. I did. 

*muah*


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## Shosh (Mar 3, 2010)

Buffie said:


> Heck woman, go buy some. I did.
> 
> *muah*



I'd pay to have mine made smaller. They can be hard on my back.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 6, 2010)

Buffie said:


> Heck woman, go buy some. I did.
> 
> *muah*



I'm 5' 3" inches tall chica! If I had boobs like yours they'd be draggin on the floor!! LOL

Love ya oh Goddess of the boobs!


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## superodalisque (Mar 6, 2010)

olwen said:


> Look, it is not my intention to reduce anyone's concerns about how they see their bodies.
> 
> The reason I used the word hoopla is because it seemed to me to be the culmination of a lot of discord, all over the boards of late, not just here and yes, I had Butch in mind when I used that word too.
> 
> I started this thread in an effort to find out why any mention of women's sexuality seems to upset some of you so much. I'm frustrated by what seems to me to sometimes be an extreme point of view. So If my definition of objectification doesn't seem to mean what other people think it means, then I'd like to know just what it means? There has to be some kind of balance here.



those posts didn't bother me at all but i understand exactly why some people took offense. they were taunting posts. and they got the response that they were fishing for. its just another way to make people exhibit behavior that makes them look like mean nasty ol prudes and it accomplished that to some extent. its like poking a stick at a snake that you know will strike. i think it showed an insensitivity and hostility toward people whose views and sensibilities differ from your own because you might be sensitive about how those people view you and your lifestyle. i also feel it was a bit of a reaction to how some people here might conduct themselves on other forums.

overall i think we spend too much time being pissed off at each other for what we assume others think about us and doing subtle catty little things out of insecurity that we can pretend we aren't doing. better to stand up be a woman and have the courage to say honestly what you think without disrespecting people than to play little high school games. i think this has absolutely nothing to do with objectification or sex or loving our bodies. its just the continual pissing contest regarding whose position is right or wrong. the subject doesn't really matter. its also about the inability to have a healthy respect for one another's differing attitudes and opinions. 

maybe if we weren't so quick to take offense at every little thing we wouldn't be so easily taken down though. i think thats a sign of weakness that important ideas can do without. it does nothing to enhance them. it also makes it appear that women who want to think deeply are sexless--which they are not. in fact they are generally much more sensual than people who are more obvious.

for people who want to police other people's ways of being out of existence, what are you so afraid of? if you aren't careful pretty soon this forum will end up with only one person in it--you.

so sad something so nice had to degenerate into the usual bullshit.


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## katherine22 (Mar 6, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> those posts didn't bother me at all but i understand exactly why some people took offense. they were taunting posts. and they got the response that they were fishing for. its just another way to make people exhibit behavior that makes them look like mean nasty ol prudes and it accomplished that to some extent. its like poking a stick at a snake that you know will strike. i think it showed an insensitivity and hostility toward people whose views and sensibilities differ from your own because you might be sensitive about how those people view you and your lifestyle. i also feel it was a bit of a reaction to how some people here might conduct themselves on other forums.
> 
> overall i think we spend too much time being pissed off at each other for what we assume others think about us and doing subtle catty little things out of insecurity that we can pretend we aren't doing. better to stand up be a woman and have the courage to say honestly what you think without disrespecting people than to play little high school games. i think this has absolutely nothing to do with objectification or sex or loving our bodies. its just the continual pissing contest regarding whose position is right or wrong. the subject doesn't really matter. its also about the inability to have a healthy respect for one another's differing attitudes and opinions.
> 
> ...





Such a thoughtful response, Felicia. Some women are so sensitive to being objectified that any hint of it incurs defense. At the heart of this issue is self-definition and how strongly one believes in their own self-definition. If one feels competent in other areas of life then some reference to a body part does not have so much sting. When one has self-doubts or feels under appreciated for the complexity of one's being then some reference to one's body can reinforce self-doubt. There is a way to express appreciation for women and to express appreciation for a woman 's body that does not seem denigrating. I thought the remarks in this post were innocuous, and I can appreciate how other women were offended by them. We all do not have to react to something in unison, as we can be secure enough to accept a variety of input.


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## mossystate (Mar 6, 2010)

I think what you are not understanding through your instructing, supero, is that some of ' this ' has nothing at all to do with what how some women are defining ' objectification '. Much of this, as I see it, is quite simply about tone in a protected space. See the difference? I would bet that most women are smart enough to know exactly what is, and what is not, objectification...to them. I won't get into the business about how individual women should be labeled. You smell something, kind of exactly what you are saying about other women, and you are running with it in perhaps the wrong direction...at least when it comes to what some women here are saying. Scolding for " taking offense " is never...ever....ever...going to bring people to a table with any sense of feeling like what they say...matters. These things do work two ways. Too much is getting mixed together, as usual on Dims. Makes everything murky.


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## superodalisque (Mar 6, 2010)

yes i understand what you're getting at and its perfectly reasonable. but at the same time if people are injecting their "tone" into other forums and don't expect the same to happen here...? i think this requires that everyone do a little soul searching about their actions in all of the forums they visit. yes they knew they were violating a tone but there are times when their tone has been violated as well. to pretend otherwise wouldn't be genuine. if there are some here prepared to do it in other forums they shouldn't be so defensive about it occurring right here. maybe its important to deviate from the tone of things at times. it can stop us all from being lopsided in how we think. after all whats wrong with other women saying your body is beautiful? it would have been nice if it didn't have hostile intentions but it is what it is. i remember when women here could tell one another openly what they found lovely about them in any way they wanted and no one took offense and everyone felt happy. this is a sad turn of events when other women can use a compliment as a slight and its felt as one. if thats not something messed up i don't know what is. maybe it tells us something about where we are going?

i'm beginning to wonder if there should be separate forums at all if people are not getting the practice of being accepting and open to others anyway. what purpose does it serve to always go unchallenged in ones perceptions? all the head bobbing in agreement can get stale and boring after a while. people need to have their ideas challenged so that they can work the kinks out. life is murky like that. its not divided into black and white. peoples ideas are NOT all good or all bad. maybe its better to practice living in the real world when it comes to actually accomplishing something instead of creating a fake microcosm that exists nowhere and might not influence as much just so we can feel that we are having our own way somewhere. rules are not the only thing to be considered. actual people are important as well. freedom is important. when i visit this forum i get the feeling there is less and less air to breath in here because people have to be so careful of everything that they do or say that it retards honest communication. how is this any different from when people can't say anything that people think FAs might find offensive just because someone might get offended by some one else's truth?


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## mossystate (Mar 6, 2010)

I am referring only to ' protected ' forums. If certain tones are to be kept out of the protected forums, then they should be kept out. Certain tones ...not the same as calling for an end to any bouncing ideas around...varying ideas. Two totally different things. 

And, you do realize that part of the reason for the particular forums...part of the reason...was, indeed, for the chance to calmly exist in a larger sea that is sometimes not so easily navigated by all. Doesn't mean that the people enjoying a space are mindless and cannot stand to ever have a disagreement. Again, two very different things, and mindsets. There are other conversations started elsewhere on Dims, where there is more of what you desire. Heck, there are very private spaces here where people want to be able to go and recharge in whatever way ( and I am quite sure those places have rules ) sometimes in ways they cannot fully enjoy on the boards in general. Just because the protected forums can be seen, doesn't mean that there should be the exact kinds of conversations happening, for example, as on the main board.

As for dismantling the protected forums...makes no difference to me anymore. It does make a difference to those who want a little head bobbing, mixed in with different views, but not all ' tones '. They can then go out and stand a little taller, and then be able to better vocalize what is inside them...yes, even shake their head no, in disagreement. It's really not a horrible thing, especially for some who have never in their lives felt a refuge of some sort. I know you are big on people taking personal inventory. I am suggesting this is another perfect example to consider. Not everybody has the same abilities. Not everybody has the same strengths. This is a very ' big ' place...and not just in terms of the number of members.

* nods *


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## superodalisque (Mar 6, 2010)

respectfully, thats where we differ. i think every woman here is strong. every woman here is capable. she won't break if she challenges herself. she won't break if other people challenge her. she can make it. i have faith in that woman. if she isn't there yet i know she can get there. and while she is in the middle of the struggle it doesn't make her any less than anyone else. the process doesn't have to look pretty either.

fat is not a handicap and even if it were people with handicaps still have a life and a strength of their own. they don't have to give up and hide from the world under the protection of others in order to grow their wings. they get strong by flapping them, building their own muscles using new ones and getting the strength to finally being able to get out there and try them on their own. they live in ways that other people can't even imagine. she doesn't need other people to filter her contact with the world. she can decide for herself. she doesn't need to spend time tearing off another woman's wings to build her own either.


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## mossystate (Mar 6, 2010)

Oy. I never said women here are fragile flowers. Muscles are not only developed through strife and confrontation and showing the world. One can be challenged even in times and places of great calm and head bobbing. 

Perhaps you did not see where I said that there are places here where women can exercise different muscles. I know I mentioned that. 

I just don't think you are understanding, at all, what I am saying. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.


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## Buffie (Mar 6, 2010)

Shosh said:


> I'd pay to have mine made smaller. They can be hard on my back.



I've got another friend who had a reduction and was thrilled with it. She felt a lot better physically and still had a lovely shape. Backs are fussy things. grrrs



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I'm 5' 3" inches tall chica! If I had boobs like yours they'd be draggin on the floor!! LOL
> 
> Love ya oh Goddess of the boobs!



There's something to be said for proportion. LoL I'm sure you're rocking your own faboo décolletage, Miss Z. Like Candye Kane says - love what you've got whether it's a little or a lot.


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## superodalisque (Mar 7, 2010)

mossystate said:


> Oy. I never said women here are fragile flowers. Muscles are not only developed through strife and confrontation and showing the world. One can be challenged even in times and places of great calm and head bobbing.
> 
> Perhaps you did not see where I said that there are places here where women can exercise different muscles. I know I mentioned that.
> 
> I just don't think you are understanding, at all, what I am saying. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.



probably not, but i respect you anyway because i have an idea where you're coming from.


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## GenericGeek (Apr 16, 2010)

Shosh said:


> I found myself being objectified one night when I went to a pub with a friend, and men were calling out " Show us yer tits" It was just awful. I felt like a slab of meat.
> 
> I agree that objectification is usually from somebody trying to gain sexual or economic advantage.
> 
> It does not feel good.



Ah, that famous Australian chivalry... 

You probably weren't anywhere _*near*_ as sloshed as they were, I bet. Buncha bloody yobs!


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## katherine22 (Apr 18, 2010)

superodalisque said:


> yes i understand what you're getting at and its perfectly reasonable. but at the same time if people are injecting their "tone" into other forums and don't expect the same to happen here...? i think this requires that everyone do a little soul searching about their actions in all of the forums they visit. yes they knew they were violating a tone but there are times when their tone has been violated as well. to pretend otherwise wouldn't be genuine. if there are some here prepared to do it in other forums they shouldn't be so defensive about it occurring right here. maybe its important to deviate from the tone of things at times. it can stop us all from being lopsided in how we think. after all whats wrong with other women saying your body is beautiful? it would have been nice if it didn't have hostile intentions but it is what it is. i remember when women here could tell one another openly what they found lovely about them in any way they wanted and no one took offense and everyone felt happy. this is a sad turn of events when other women can use a compliment as a slight and its felt as one. if thats not something messed up i don't know what is. maybe it tells us something about where we are going?
> 
> i'm beginning to wonder if there should be separate forums at all if people are not getting the practice of being accepting and open to others anyway. what purpose does it serve to always go unchallenged in ones perceptions? all the head bobbing in agreement can get stale and boring after a while. people need to have their ideas challenged so that they can work the kinks out. life is murky like that. its not divided into black and white. peoples ideas are NOT all good or all bad. maybe its better to practice living in the real world when it comes to actually accomplishing something instead of creating a fake microcosm that exists nowhere and might not influence as much just so we can feel that we are having our own way somewhere. rules are not the only thing to be considered. actual people are important as well. freedom is important. when i visit this forum i get the feeling there is less and less air to breath in here because people have to be so careful of everything that they do or say that it retards honest communication. how is this any different from when people can't say anything that people think FAs might find offensive just because someone might get offended by some one else's truth?



People can examine why they choose to be offended by so much. If one wants an interesting experience in life then take less offence. So much evaluation of others and feeling offended can contrict one's life. People are so thin skinned here particularly over in the fat sexuality forum.


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