# The Verbal Judo Thread



## tonynyc (Apr 4, 2008)

*Verbal Judo * :bow:

There has been post by Dimmers in previous threads mentioning Verbal Judo. Now, there isnt a day that folks of size have not had to deal with rude comments and other forms of verbal abuse.

Do you apply a snappy comeback? Or what other methods can be used? 

How can folks that serve the public (medical,law enforecment,cutomer service etc) deal with the irate public? 

How can you diffuse a situation to avoid a conflict? 

How do you deal with difficult people in the workplace?
(there have been studies that higher pressure jobs brings greater stress)

People rarely think well during conflict. We train how to use presence and words as tools rather than weapons, helping people build bridges to success rather than burn them. Verbal Judo is the single best method in communicating effectively available today. Verbal Judo usage has reduced complaints by as much as 57% to 77% in many police departments and is making great strides in the corporate sector, city and county government, the travel industry, the medical profession, in our schools, and in our homes. 
Verbal Judo is derived from the classic worlds of eastern and western philosophy, taking the best in persuasion from the powerful thinking of Aristotle and the martial philosophy of Jigoro Kano, the creator of physical Judo. The goal of Verbal Judo is Generating Voluntary Compliance from others when they are not at their best. 
Working to modify and change behavior and not attitude gives us great power in getting what we need from other people under stressful conditions. We must sometimes think for others as they would think for themselves under better conditions. The success of the Tactical Communication program can be measured in keeping our people safe from the wrath of others while making us more professional under pressure. Verbal Judo training has been instrumental in decreasing potential complaints and liability, while lowering worksite stress as we improve our productivity, morale, and management of time.

*Source (The Verbal Judo Institute) *


*1.* I did not want to endorse any paid Verbal Judo website- was trying to come up with as much free info online as possible. 

*2.* Not all techniques can work in a particular situation

*3.* Its always good to consider other alternatives when Verbal Judo fails: avoidance  self defense but, this could be a separate topic/thread if some Dimmers can share their expertise on self defense for larger folks and other safety considerations.

*4.*Dimmers -please post and share their own verbal judo moments 

**** Examples of Verbal Judo in a work setting. I have seen applied with pretty effective results.

Scenario 1 (Dept. meeting things get heated)

Irate Nasty Department Head: *"You must really think Im an asshole"*

Response Other manager: *"Well if you say so"* 

Scenario 2 (staff meeting  things get heated)

Supervisor: *"Do I look like an asshole"*

Staff member: *"No Response- Just silence"*

(Staff member looks directly at the boss -sometimes silence is golden  Boss is stumped looking "asinine" as a confrontation response was expected)

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*How to Pace & lead an Irate Person *

http://lifehacker.com/software/pers...w-to-pace-and-lead-an-irate-person-202099.php

*Examples of Verbal Judo for Children*

**always good to teach kids physical self defense along to complement the 
verbal training

http://www.mindpub.com/art359.htm

*Depression and Verbal Abuse *

http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/depverbal

*Dealing With Difficult People*

http://humanresources.about.com/od/workrelationships/a/difficultpeople.htm

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* Related Videos*

*Verbal Judo in Law Enforcement*

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iGO63FE94DQ
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*How to Deal with Difficult People *

Bill Crawford -Pt 1

** the related links section on youtube list parts 2-4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NgnAY_eXYbI&feature=related


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## moore2me (Apr 5, 2008)

Tony,

I actually prefer verbal karate. It is more fierce and is used in situations where you sense danger or want someone to stop immediately before they hurt you or another person. Verbal karate can also be used against animals (I have used it against dogs - works great when combined with facial gestures and posturing.)

Verbal karate is hard for some women to do because we are often raised to be quiet and ladylike. However, it can be to our advantage to come out as a lioness and scare the *&@@ out of a predator. For example a guy comes toward you and demands give me ______________. You scream as loud as you can FIRE, FIRE, FIRE! or NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Make it short. Make it loud. Make it so it stuns the opponent and attracts everyone's attention. Also, the predator may think you are either nuts (leave her alone) or you are not going to be an easy target (go somewhere else).

When using it against dogs, I put on my best evil demon face, show teeth, narrow eyes, hiss, growl, and if in further danger will hold my hands high like a I'm ready to pounce on them. It's all a show, and I'm trying to act that I am a terrifying beast - run from me if you want to live. (Note: May not work on dogs, bulls, horses, and other creatures that fight are running toward you. Works best on stalking or standing animals.)


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## butch (Apr 5, 2008)

when I took a self defense course, the instructor told us that if we're in a scenario where we need to defend ourselves, we should yell "Call 911!" if there is anyone at all possibly within hearing distance, because people are more likely to get involved (by calling 911, not necessarily by coming to your rescue) if you yell a specific command.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Apr 5, 2008)

moore2me said:


> Tony,
> 
> Verbal karate can also be used against animals (I have used it against dogs - works great when combined with facial gestures and posturing.)
> 
> When using it against dogs, I put on my best evil demon face, show teeth, narrow eyes, hiss, growl, and if in further danger will hold my hands high like a I'm ready to pounce on them. It's all a show, and I'm trying to act that I am a terrifying beast - run from me if you want to live. (Note: May not work on dogs, bulls, horses, and other creatures that fight are running toward you. Works best on stalking or standing animals.)



When using this technique on cats*, it helps to stand sideways to the cat and turn your head to face it. This is what cats do when they're being confrontational, since it makes them look bigger.

*You probably won't have much trouble with cats stalking you unless you're very, very small -- but this advice is just in case.


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## tonynyc (Apr 5, 2008)

moore2me said:


> Tony,
> 
> I actually prefer verbal karate. It is more fierce and is used in situations where you sense danger or want someone to stop immediately before they hurt you or another person. Verbal karate can also be used against animals (I have used it against dogs - works great when combined with facial gestures and posturing.)
> 
> ...



Great idea on the application of these skills to our 4 legged critters as well as two... 



butch said:


> when I took a self defense course, the instructor told us that if we're in a scenario where we need to defend ourselves, we should yell "Call 911!" if there is anyone at all possibly within hearing distance, because people are more likely to get involved (by calling 911, not necessarily by coming to your rescue) if you yell a specific command.



Please share some more senarios- I like those techniques. Which self defense system is this a part of? 





Dr. Feelgood said:


> When using this technique on cats*, it helps to stand sideways to the cat and turn your head to face it. This is what cats do when they're being confrontational, since it makes them look bigger.
> 
> *You probably won't have much trouble with cats stalking you unless you're very, very small -- but this advice is just in case.



Now this gives new meaning to the term 'cat fight'


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## tonynyc (Apr 5, 2008)

Found another great video on Youtube

Rich Grannon has some great videos on the subject and wanted to share this one 

* Rich Grannon- Learn to Deal with Verbal Threat*

http://youtube.com/watch?v=shPj5xidsQo



*Verbal Karate - Allan Bonner*


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mi41Q1t857s


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## butch (Apr 6, 2008)

Hi tonynyc, I don't remember if the self defense I learned had a particular name. The instructor had a black belt, and also trained Army Rangers, but that is as much as I know about the type of instruction I got. 

I remember a lot of stepping into the person when using the techniques, a lot of trying to get the person on the ground, and I remember, during my final 'test,' ripping the protective head covering off the guy's head when I was trying to get him on the ground. 

At my size, I could do most of the things we were taught, except I was unable to jump right up after getting the attacker to the ground, so in those cases I would roll a good distance away and then get up, and the instructor seemed to think this was a good compromise.


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## tonynyc (Apr 8, 2008)

butch said:


> At my size, I could do most of the things we were taught, except I was unable to jump right up after getting the attacker to the ground, so in those cases I would roll a good distance away and then get up, and the instructor seemed to think this was a good compromise.



I look at like this - you adapted the techniques that worked for your bodytype which is what training is all about. Now was the course you took the FAST Defense?


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## butch (Apr 10, 2008)

The course was just billed as 'women's self defense' in the University Schedule of Classes, so i don't know what type of defense it was. I know that at the end of every class we had some meditation time, so I'm guessing it was based on a particular type of martial arts, but I don't know what kind. 

I enjoyed it, even if, honestly, I don't remember a lot of the specific moves and such today. I think the experience and the basic knowledge that I picked up is still helpful to me today, should I find myself in a situation that I would need to defend myself.


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## Tad (Apr 11, 2008)

On the topic of verbal judo, the book that I've recommended on here more times than I can remember is "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" by Suzette Haden-Elgin (she also wrote a few sequels, partially covering the same territory, partially covering more areas).

For some people I'm sure everything she wrote would be "Well, of course!" but for me--fairly typically nerdish guy--I found it really useful, helpful, and generally excellent. 

I would recommend the book to anyone interested in how to better deal with difficult social/verbal situations.

I'll not try to summarize the whole book, but I will pass along one specefic tip. 

Sometimes people wrap an attack under a distracting phrase, like "If you really want to get ahead you need to put effort into your image" or "people who _care_ about their parents take care of their own health." In the first example the point is "you don't care about getting ahead" and in the second it is "you don't care about me (or our parents or your parents depending on who is talking)." These are hard to respond to, because if you answer the second point you allow the first point to stand unchallenged, but if you try to directly respond to the first point they can dodge the issue often.

The very effective formula for answering these is: "When did you start thinking (the hidden attack)." So "When did you start thinking I don't care about getting ahead?" or "When did you start to think I don't care about my parents?" At which point the other person either has to back down "Oh, I didn't mean that!" or else offer some specific issue, which is easier to address.

This is an potentially quite interesting thread--I'm subscribing


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## tonynyc (Apr 11, 2008)

edx said:


> On the topic of verbal judo, the book that I've recommended on here more times than I can remember is "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" by Suzette Haden-Elgin (she also wrote a few sequels, partially covering the same territory, partially covering more areas).
> 
> For some people I'm sure everything she wrote would be "Well, of course!" but for me--fairly typically nerdish guy--I found it really useful, helpful, and generally excellent.
> 
> ...



*Hi Ed:
Definitely share some more insights. I've been trying to find some visual examples 'via' youtube so more sources the better. 

It's interesting to read about where these concepts are being applied and to be aware of the different environments be it workplace- street scenarios.

Unfortunately, I did not see any youtube video on Suzette Haden-Elgin GAVSD. Also trying to come up with as much free info as possible....

But here is an overview of the system- you can perhaps share your insights and applications of this as well as the web site...

================================================
OVERVIEW: The GAVSD System 


---------------------------------------------

1. The four basic principles 

A. KNOW THAT YOU ARE UNDER ATTACK
B. KNOW WHAT KIND OF ATTACK YOU ARE FACING.
C. KNOW HOW TO MAKE YOUR DEFENSE FIT THE ATTACK
D. KNOW HOW TO FOLLOW THROUGH. 



2. The goal 

To establish an environment in which verbal violence almost never occurs; and in which -- on those rare occasions when it cannot be avoided -- it is dealt with efficiently and effectively, with no loss of face on either side. 



3. Using Miller's Law (from psychologist George Miller) 

"In order to understand what another person is saying, you must assume that it is true and try to imagine what it could be true of." (George Miller; 1980.) 

Our tendency when we hear someone say something that strikes us as unacceptable is to assume that it is false and try to imagine what's wrong with the person who said it. (As in: "That's ridiculous! He's only saying that because he's stupid/biased/ignorant/trying to trick me/..." and so on.) This guarantees communication breakdown; instead, use Miller's Law. The proper response when someone says, "My toaster has been talking to me!" is to give the speaker your full attention, ask, "What has it been saying?", and then listen carefully. 



4. Using the Sensory Modes (from Jung, Edward T. Hall, and others) 

We interact with the world by using our sensory systems -- sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste, and more. By the time we are about six years old we've discovered that one of those systems works better for us than the others do, and it becomes our preferred or dominant sensory system.The Sensory Modes are the vocabularies of the sensory systems, plus some associated body language items. Because people communicating under stress tend to rely most heavily on their preferred Sensory Mode, matching that mode is a way to speak their language and increase your chances for satisfactory communication. 

Rule One:
Match the mode coming at you. 

Someone says: "How bad does it look?"
Right response: "I don't see it as serious" or "It looks pretty bad."
Wrong response: "I don't feel like it's anything serious." 

Rule Two:
If you can't follow Rule One, try not to use any Sensory Mode language at all. 

Someone says: "How bad does it look?"
Right response: "I don't think it's anything serious." 



5. Using the Satir Modes (from Dr. Virginia Satir)

The Satir Modes -- Blaming, Placating, Computing, Distracting, and Leveling -- are language patterns people use when communicating under stress. Suppose that five people are in an elevator and it suddenly stops between floors.... 

Blaming: "ALL right! WHICH ONE of you pushed the STOP button??!"
Placating: "GOSH, if this is MY fault, I'm sure SORRY!!"
Computing: "There's no reason to get upset. Any sensible person knows that."
Leveling: "I don't like this -- it's scary."
[A person using Distracter Mode will use all four of the other Satir Modes, switching rapidly from one to another; Distracting is panic.] 

The Satir Mode Loops: 

Blaming in response to Blaming gets you a fight. 

Placating in response to Placating gets you an undignified delay. 

Computing in response to Computing gets you a dignified delay. 

Leveling in response to Leveling is an exchange of the simple truth; it's always the best choice when it's safe and when it's appropriate. 

Distracting in reponse to Distracting is panic feeding panic; it's always a mistake. 

Rule One:
If you don't know what to do, go to Computer Mode and stay there until you have a good reason to change. 

Rule Two:
If it would be desirable for the Satir Mode coming at you to escalate -- if that's what you want to have happen -- match that mode. 



6. Using the Three-Part Message pattern (from Dr. Thomas Gordon and others) 

The three-part message is a language pattern for making complaints. It's designed to get past the automatic negative reaction people have to complaints and bring about the desired change in behavior. The pattern is: "When you (X), I feel (Y), because (Z)." All three parts must be items that can be verified in the real world. This pattern is more likely to produce that behavior change than traditional complaints, and is always the best move. Example: "When you don't water the tomatoes, I feel angry, because plants die without water." 


7. Managing the Verbal Attack Patterns (VAPS) of English 

Vaps are English language patterns used to demonstrate power over a targeted victim by (a) capturing and holding their attention and (b) evoking a highly emotional response. They have two parts: an open attack (the "bait") and one or more attacks sheltered in presuppositions. For example: 

A. "If you REALLY cared about your job, YOU'D get to work on TIME!"
B. "WHY don't you ever LISTEN to me when I talk to you??!"
C. "EVen a person YOUR age should know SOMETHING about stocks!"
D. "SOME people would FIRE you for coming to work dressed like a THUG!"
E. "YOU'RE not the ONLY person who has PROBlems, you know!" 

Rule One:
Ignore the bait. 

Rule Two:
Respond directly to a presupposition. 

For example....... 

Attack:
"If you REALLY loved me, YOU wouldn't waste MONEY the way you do!!"
or...
"If you really LOVED me, YOU wouldn't waste MONEY the way you do!" 

(The first part of the attack presupposes "You don't love me"; the bait is, "You waste money.") 

Recommended Responses:
"Of course I love you."
"When did you start thinking I don't love you?" 


8. Principles for dealing with the body language of English 

A. When the words and the body language don't match, believe the body.
B. No words, no matter how carefully chosen, can cancel body language.
C. Emotional information is carried almost entirely by body language.
D. The most powerful part of body language is the tone and intonation of the voice -- the tune the words are set to. 



9. The Metaprinciples 

A. Anything you feed will grow.
B. Anything you starve, smother, or neglect will fester or die.
C. Every language interaction is an interactive feedback loop.
D. The only meaning an utterance has in the real world is the meaning the listener understands it to have.
E. Mismatch is a warning sign; watch for it. 

[This overview can do nothing more than provide a very rough idea of the system. For details, explanations, history, examples, exceptions to rules, and additional techniques, see the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense books and audiotapes; see also the sources cited in those materials.] 

Suzette Haden Elgin Verbal Self Defense 

http://adrr.com/aa/index.html

*
===========================================

And another topic that may be of interest

*Transforming Power Studies*

Martial artist describes how he dealt with potentially violent scenario
there are other videos if you look under the "Ralated" video section

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oo2oHVnGTUM


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## tonynyc (Apr 11, 2008)

Saw this great post on another example 

*How to de-escalate conflict situation verbally*

Lets discuss the ways how to de-escalate verbally a potentially violent situation.

For example, you make an eye contact with a tough guy who says 

"What are you looking at, motherfucker?" or something like this. 

How to respond in this situation to settle the matter without using force? 

Remember: your main weapon is *patience*.
Keep in mind your goal: *de-escalation/escape*. 

Dont rise to the bait  dont get emotionally tied to your opponents responses. If you go up against a blade, getting cut has to be expected. Similarly, if you want to de-escalate aggression, you have to expect taking some verbal abuse. Accept it. Dont rise to it. 

*Keep using closed statements that stop the conversation.*

If you're asked What are you looking at? 

the easy answer is to say something along the lines of,

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were someone I knew. My mistake, sorry," and start to move away. 

If after this the guy pursues the issue, you know he is just out for a fight and you must then prepare for self defense. To reduce the squeaky voice effect common when you get a heightened level of adrenaline in your system, look down slightly as you speak. Looking upwards makes your voice squeakier.

Making open statements only invites more conversation. 

If someone has engaged you in a verbal confrontation, they haven't yet justified in their mind a physical attack. They may still be trying to figure you out as a fighter, looking to distract you to set you up for a proactive strike, or simply cannot yet justify physically attacking you yet. What they are looking is for a reason, and using open statements and questions keeps you in the conversation longer. Give yourself more rope, and eventually they'll find a reason to escalate to a full out attack.

*Not providing them with open statements means that they'll usually run out things to say pretty soon, e.g.:*

- What do you think youre looking at?
- Nothing, mate!
- You were, you were f****ng looking at me!
- Look mate, sorry I really didn't realize I was
- Well you f****ng was!
- Sorry!


Something else that can be effective is to put subtle commands into your placation of an aggressor. This could be as simple as not using 'please' in your discussions (it is easy to become overly polite in de-escalation situations), so if they are shouting simply use direct language to quieten them. When they do quieten down, they have done what they have been told, this removes control of the situation from them without them realizing consciously and makes it far easier to make them go away- it does work, but you have to get it right as its a fine balance.


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