# Forum Decorum



## rollhandler (Nov 2, 2009)

I come here: for discussion, debate, and to gain or share: education, enlightenment, and understanding.
I come here: for fellowship with others who either are my preference or share my preference.
I come here: to learn about the other side of the coin to better understand the things that affect my relationships regarding my preference.
I come here: to share my experiences with those who share my preference as well as those who are my preference.
I come here: to take part in the sharing of experiences of different cultures and regions of my country and the world in how they perceive the preference differently, and similarly.
I come here: with questions about how those of my preference were influenced by their various environmental factors be they, familial, peer group, or social by random interaction of strangers, to learn of differences, similarities, and how to better to interact with them.

I ask probing questions of BBWs and FAs based on a variety of sources designed to stimulate conversation and debate regarding the issue(s) raised by a variety of sources without knowing always what may be learned by the answers but knowing that at some point in the conversation something important may be said that gives FAs or BBWs the ability to learn from the answers and interact better. 

I bring questions that may or may not be relevant to size per se because things that may be relevant to humans on the whole may be perceived differently when viewed from the perspective of FAs and BBWs, just as some of those things may be viewed differently by the genders regardless of size or preference.

I bring my opinion(s) to a variety of topics because, although they may be similar to yours, they differ because they are mine. I do not apologize for having one, nor do I apologize for having it differ from anyone elses, or that it may be more or less popular than another being presented. My opinions are based on MY experiences, and what I have learned so far in my journey. They are from my perspective, and they are just as valid as any other one presented. They are also subject to change as information changes my understanding regarding the topic my opinion has been formed on. My opinion does not invalidate any other opinion by its presentation, nor should it be perceived as doing so. I present them so that someone else may learn something from my experience because I chose to share it regarding a topic.

I am male, and as such I already understand much of the male condition, I have fewer questions regarding what makes the male Y chromosome function the way it does than I do about the gender condition of growing up female with all of the psychological, social, emotional aspects inherent to it, which I as a male interact with often as an adult. I have even more questions about what makes FAT females different because they are the ones I wish to connect with more often for friendship, dating, and mating. I ask questions that other men and women want to know the answers to as well but that they just simply don't ask themselves. Does this mean they won't learn from the answers? 

I ask in a forum setting because the resource pool of available information/experiences is deeper and wider.
I bring my questions to those best suited to enlighten and in the forum best suited to answer from the perspective of size or preference. Why do motives get questioned for simply being the one to pose a question? What harm is there in the sharing of knowledge from a general perspective, and multiple points of view? Who has the right to dictate what one side of a particular group needs to know about the other or question whether or not the curiosity is valid. Whether it is a male or a female asking a question of the other gender, does it invalidate the issue being brought to the table for discussion simply because the querent is not part of the gender being questioned? What of a person of differing race, or culture etc. to that being questioned bringing an issue or question to the table for discussion or debate, why should it be treated any different than if someone not of these groups did so? Why then is there such disparity between forum members regarding introspective topics when any of these groups are just as capable of asking a question intelligently that would be discussed openly if gender, race, culture etc. of the querent wasn't at issue? Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous tool. Why browbeat those seeking to understand. Why promote bias and prejudice based on something so shallow as the gender of the questioner? If you can't imagine what understanding or knowledge can be gained by discussing a topic, why not sit back and possibly learn, rather than shaming the querent with cynicism, or showing intolerance to curiosity? Who better to teach than those who know from experience?

In presenting a question, an answer, or an opinion I may spend hours, in articulating and editing it in such a way as to relay information while offending the least number of people, and attempting to encourage open minded debate from as many as are willing to partake in the discussion. I take culture, gender, and personality types into account when formulating the wording of a particular post and still miss my target with usage of a word or phrase that should have been different, more concise, or by implication may give a wrong idea or impression, however by the time the flaw is discovered it is often too late to correct.

I understand that in some cases no matter the number of qualifying statements, disclaimers, wording, how vague or precise the phrasing, or sincerity of the query or statements offered, some will choose to be offended by the questions I ask. My question to those people is simple: Why bother posting to a thread if there is little or no information being offered relevant to the topic? If the motive is in question relating to the topic being presented by a particular gender, group, or poster why not simply read the responses over time and formulate an opinion and choose either to join the topic or simply not answer, rather than bias other posters with cynicism or critique, which serves no other purpose than to derail a thread and stops others from posting who would normally have answered to the spirit of the thread had this cynical, argumentative, post not been presented defaming the thread and belittling the question being asked, as well as the one posing the question. I see this behaviour often enough to make me question if the mere perception of understanding is all that is we as humans can handle. 

In discussions I have had outside of this forum with others and in a number of posts I have seen, the effect that this achieves is frustration and non participation of many who have a lot to offer the community. There is an atmosphere of fear that asking a question with any social import or relevance is going to be met with anger, derision, or an immature lashing out at those asking and others answering the question that may offend someone.

Is this really the way we were taught that adults are supposed to behave?
Is this how we were taught is a healthy manner of debate?
Is there any wonder why fewer and fewer people are posting, or why many are leaving the forum?

Rollhandler


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## TallFatSue (Nov 2, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> In discussions I have had outside of this forum with others and in a number of posts I have seen, the effect that this achieves is frustration and non participation of many who have a lot to offer the community.


Yup, for me anyway, it's sure not as much fun to participate as it used to be.


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## Shosh (Nov 2, 2009)

TallFatSue said:


> Yup, for me anyway, it's sure not as much fun to participate as it used to be.



I agree. I am not sure why I am still here to be honest.


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## tonynyc (Nov 2, 2009)

TallFatSue said:


> Yup, for me anyway, it's sure not as much fun to participate as it used to be.





Susannah said:


> I agree. I am not sure why I am still here to be honest.



*TallFatSue and Susannah: 

You are both valued members of this community and have much to offer. Our Dims Community would be pretty boring without a wide variety of opinions. *

*
Excellent post Rollhandler...
I think it's sad that some may have the perception that an atmosphere of "Fear" exist in this Forum. It's bad enough that some of these issues exist in real life - it shouldn't be that way here 
*


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## Linda (Nov 2, 2009)

Well you had a lot to say.  I know you are trying to understand why people are who they are but sometimes you just have to accept that they are the way they are, like it or not.
There are rude, judgmental, narrow-minded and cliques in all parts of our lives. Our online interactions are no different. 
As the "fat girl" I came here because I thought it was a place to interact and find companionship with others and not be judged for what I look like. I really didn't come to find comaraderie with other large people. That wasn't my intention. Seek out other fat people...must chat with other like me...take me to your hive and lets commence chatting. No, that wasn't my intention. Just a place to talk and not feel like I am on the defensive all the time just because of what I look like. 
Then I got here and I found wow, I am accepted for my size but not for my thoughts. I find the cliques hard to break into and have become fearful to speak my mind on some issues because of knee-jerk reactions by others. Because of abuse I have been through because of my size I think I am more open to at least listening to others and not judging them because their beliefs are different from mine. In fact, I enjoy hearing other peoples points of view on things. That doesn't mean I always agree with their point of view but to really listen to someone else and see where they are coming from gives you a greater knowledge of who they are. Being attacked for my thoughts really makes me feel the same as being attacked for my size. There really is no difference. 
It is easy to attack someone who has attacked you but I try not to do that. Not saying I never have nor that I never will again but I try not to do that.It only escalates the insanity.
So all I can tell you is your always going to encounter those that will outwardly disagree with you in rude and inappropriate ways. My advice to you is if you want to be accepted for your thoughts them you have to practice what you preach and accept them for theirs. Just accept that they won't budge on their point and move on. Your really not out to change their mind anyway are you? Because if nothing else I have learned that you can change no one but yourself. 
Chat on friends.....


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## rollhandler (Nov 2, 2009)

My intention with this thread was not to change minds or opinions, but merely to hold a mirror to behaviours that have been discussed by/with others and observed by myself, and vent a bit about what I perceive as destructive by some that affect the whole in a negative manner. It seems that the behaviours being described in this thread are an elephant in the room that many see but few choose to admit openly as something that needs to change for the forum to thrive as a community.

I debated this week whether or not to abandon the forum due to the behaviours noted above but choose to stay instead because an adult adapts and learns how to get along with others. I thought instead about why I am here in the first place and are those reasons valid and sufficient to maintain a relationship with this community.
I feel that there is still much I can learn here and many I can teach through sharing of my experiences and education as a result of my journey as an FA and my interactions with others of my preference as well as those who share it.

Rollhandler


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## bigjayne66 (Nov 3, 2009)

Susannah said:


> I agree. I am not sure why I am still here to be honest.



Hi,I don't know you,but I get the impression that a lot of people like you,and thats good enough reason to be here...
Big Hugs Jayne


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## TallFatSue (Nov 3, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *TallFatSue and Susannah:
> 
> You are both valued members of this community and have much to offer. Our Dims Community would be pretty boring without a wide variety of opinions. *
> 
> ...


Thank you! I do appreciate it, and I'm glad you, Susannah, Linda, Big Jayne and Rollhandler are here. You have some of the more intelligent, thought-provoking and respectful posts around. It's not easy to go through daily life as fat as I am, but I learn a great deal from people like you, just sharing thoughts and ideas about fat and about life in general. Life is good. Encore! 

This year Dimensions has definitely become less hospitable, and even downright hostile in some quarters. I've been here about a decade, so I know what I'm talking about. Case in point: a few months ago I told my tale of the skinny little bambis who mocked me ("it must be whale season") at a beach resport in Acapulco about 5 years ago, and how I turned the tables on them (she who laughs last, ya know). Well, some Dimmers I had formerly admired and respected raked me over the coals for repeating that tale over and over (guilty as charged -- IF once a blinkin' year counts!  ). Secondly, those Dimmers virtually kicked my double-wide ass for my term "bambi" (which caused nary a ripple in previous years  ). I'm still bewildered what the heck I did to bring on that and similar slaps, but this is only a message board so I kinda shrugged them off. However I can turn my other cheeks only so many times before my fat face and my big butt sting. When my virtual reality became too much bother, I packed up my fat and went home to my real reality until the dust cleared. 

I'd like to think that the naysayers, wet blankets and trolls are in the minority, vocal though they may be. If they're bound and determined to throw tomatoes, I'll make a salad. If they fling lemons, I'll make lemon meringue pie (and maybe dance a merengue too). I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't accentuate the positive, almost to the point of being an annoyingly cheerful Pollyanna. People like you do give me added faith in the general goodness of humanity. 

Nonethless, I'll probably be much more guarded about what I post here.


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## bigjayne66 (Nov 3, 2009)

TallFatSue said:


> Thank you! I do appreciate it, and I'm glad you, Susannah, Linda, Big Jayne and Rollhandler are here. You have some of the more intelligent, thought-provoking and respectful posts around. It's not easy to go through daily life as fat as I am, but I learn a great deal from people like you, just sharing thoughts and ideas about fat and about life in general. Life is good. Encore!
> 
> This year Dimensions has definitely become less hospitable, and even downright hostile in some quarters. I've been here about a decade, so I know what I'm talking about. Case in point: a few months ago I told my tale of the skinny little bambis who mocked me ("it must be whale season") at a beach resport in Acapulco about 5 years ago, and how I turned the tables on them (she who laughs last, ya know). Well, some Dimmers I had formerly admired and respected raked me over the coals for repeating that tale over and over (guilty as charged -- IF once a blinkin' year counts!  ). Secondly, those Dimmers virtually kicked my double-wide ass for my term "bambi" (which caused nary a ripple in previous years  ). I'm still bewildered what the heck I did to bring on that and similar slaps, but this is only a message board so I kinda shrugged them off. However I can turn my other cheeks only so many times before my fat face and my big butt sting. When my virtual reality became too much bother, I packed up my fat and went home to my real reality until the dust cleared.
> 
> ...



Thank you,its a long time since anyone really appreciated my comments,I came on here to prevent me shrinking into my shell any further,but nasty words don't help,if everyone were respectful of each other this site would be a better place than it is already,I haven't been posting long but had been reading posts for about 3 months before deciding to have my say.
Luckily the nice people seem to outweigh(forgive the pun)the negative ones.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Nov 3, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> I
> . There is an atmosphere of fear that asking a question with any social import or relevance is going to be met with anger, derision, or an immature lashing out at those asking and others answering the question that may offend someone.
> 
> Is this really the way we were taught that adults are supposed to behave?
> ...



I feel your pain, Rollhandler. It's not just here, though: it's everywhere. What you're talking about is the death of civility. I can remember when people could disagree and still respect each other. I can remember conservatives like Ronald Reagan and liberals like Tip O'Neill: they disagreed about nearly everything, but they did so calmly, with civility, and ... they were the best of friends! Somehow things have gotten so that one can only disagree with another by attacking him or her personally, and I don't know what can be done about it. For my part, I try to be polite and considerate (or at least what I conceive of as polite and considerate)of others on the board, regardless of their behavior; I may not be able to restore civility in a society that no longer seems to value it, but I refuse to give up and go with the flow.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree completely. This used to be a great place. But there are bullies in the house who shout down everyone they disagree with. I still read but posting has become - not worth it - to me.

I believe it is everywhere not just here. No one has manners anymore.


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## tonynyc (Nov 3, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I agree completely. This used to be a great place. But there are bullies in the house who shout down everyone they disagree with. I still read but posting has become - not worth it - to me.
> 
> I believe it is everywhere not just here. No one has manners anymore.



*I think your great signature can handle any Forum Bully* :happy:


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## rollhandler (Nov 3, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I agree completely. This used to be a great place. But there are bullies in the house who shout down everyone they disagree with. I still read but posting has become - not worth it - to me.
> 
> I believe it is everywhere not just here. No one has manners anymore.



It still IS a great place, but with valued members leaving, taking valuable experiences, wisdom, and insightful material with them, I don't see it continuing to be a great place for long. I understand that with the economy and job market amongst other factors being pushed to the limits, stress and tension in every day life is higher. Add that to a bad day or bad singular experience at home or in public and it leads an atmosphere where offense is taken with less provocation, BUT knowing this only explains the behaviour, it does not justify it nor does it absolve us as adults of the obligation to treat each other with civility and respect even when we don't see eye to eye on a topic. Debate is designed to place opposing viewpoints on the table for discussion, by its very nature the two sides of an issue are not in agreement necessarily. This does not mean that they have to be argued in an uncivilized manner. On a two dimensional forum board where eye contact, mannerisms, and vocal inflection cannot be seen or heard it means we need to be extra cautious of the tone we use in our posts and not assume offense where none MAY be intended. Neither hair trigger reactionary posts nor personal attacks further discussion, it is simply hostile behaviour. I see so many disclaimers of ill intent now that I predict, if this type of reactionary posting is not slowed down, that many more will leave out of frustration or futility.
Rollhandler


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## TallFatSue (Nov 4, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> It still IS a great place, but with valued members leaving, taking valuable experiences, wisdom, and insightful material with them, I don't see it continuing to be a great place for long. I understand that with the economy and job market amongst other factors being pushed to the limits, stress and tension in every day life is higher. Add that to a bad day or bad singular experience at home or in public and it leads an atmosphere where offense is taken with less provocation, BUT knowing this only explains the behaviour, it does not justify it nor does it absolve us as adults of the obligation to treat each other with civility and respect even when we don't see eye to eye on a topic. Debate is designed to place opposing viewpoints on the table for discussion, by its very nature the two sides of an issue are not in agreement necessarily. This does not mean that they have to be argued in an uncivilized manner. On a two dimensional forum board where eye contact, mannerisms, and vocal inflection cannot be seen or heard it means we need to be extra cautious of the tone we use in our posts and not assume offense where none MAY be intended. Neither hair trigger reactionary posts nor personal attacks further discussion, it is simply hostile behaviour. I see so many disclaimers of ill intent now that I predict, if this type of reactionary posting is not slowed down, that many more will leave out of frustration or futility.
> Rollhandler



As a longtime member, I'd like to stay around -- if there aren't too many landmines to blast my mass to kingdom come. You're right the poor economy has increased tensions, and also it does not justify rude behavior. Maybe some forum snipers targetted me because I am having a great year, albeit built on the rubble of last year. A year ago my company was in a precarious state, and we worried how long we'd still have jobs. Our big muckymucks "volunteered" several of us managers to supplement our sales reps, travel around the country and drum up business. Wining and dining prospective clients seems like fun eh? Well it was fun for the first day or so, but schlepping my bulk through a long succession of airports and hotels was a major challenge. As the fattest woman in our company, I was flattered to be included, but by late last year, too much stress and too many restaurant meals brought my weight over 500lb and I developed some mobility problems. 

This year matters reached a crunch, but suddenly our main competitor went bankrupt before we did. Too close for comfort! Some of their clients came to us, and the cash influx pulled us back from the brink. Small wonder I've been almost giddy this year. After all, my coworkers and I still have our jobs, and finally we have some semblance of security. We're happy, but know all too well that there but for the grace of God go we. We who remain treat each other with civility, respect and the comeraderie of having been through a tight squeeze and come through it together. Last year's layoffs also purged us of the slackers, malcontents and back-stabbers. Gone are the manipulators who bitch, play politics and try to undermine others (sound familiar?). We're enjoying much improved morale. My husband's engineering work has also been busy, as many of their clients automate processes to cut costs and stay in business. 

Art & I have also made some interesting new friends this year. We have no children, but several nieces and nephews are in university, and we've met some of their classmates. When they were little, our nieces and nephews loved to sit on their big fat Aunt Sue's lap, so apparently I made a good lasting impression. I always knew the best form of fat acceptance was to set a positive example.  Anyway due to the miracles of technology, Art & I found ourselves included in some e-mails with our nieces, their friends and their parents, many of whom are now becoming empty-nesters. To make a long story short, Art & I now have several new friends roughly our age, our social lives are becoming more active, and we are even discussing possible vacations together.

Some of the wives are also fat, and in various stages of self-denial or self-acceptance. Some of them gained weight during their pregnancies, and some have always been fat. A few feel especially uncomfortable because they're at the age that some of their husband's friends and associates have dumped their first wives and married young thin trophy wives.  Luckily they're a bit more comfortable about themselves around me. Or maybe they like being around someone even fatter than they are? 

Well, I've rambled on long enough, trying not to get caught up in any real work before I go to a 10:00 meeting. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I do value Dimensions, despite the malcontents, but I also have a perfectly good real reality to fall back on if this virtual reality becomes too much bother. This is my situation, although methinx in future I'll better keep my personal life personal.


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## stubblygoodness7 (Nov 4, 2009)

TallFatSue said:


> As a longtime member, I'd like to stay around Maybe some forum snipers targetted me because I am having a great year, albeit built on the rubble of last year.



I haven't been around long and don't post much, TallFatSue, but I remember you making this accusation before. When someone said that using derogatory terms for skinny people was ridiculous, and you responded that we must be jealous of you.

Um, no. If you would like to go toe to toe on my upbringing and how many 4 star resorts or restaurants I've been to, etc, I guess we could do that. I'd probably win that contest. Or we could talk about the fact that you made some strange comments that deserved to be questioned. It's strange that first you said you put your foot in your mouth, and now you are saying that we're just jealous and THAT is where the tension is coming from. 

No one is jealous. We just would like comments that add to this board, not demean.


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## TallFatSue (Nov 4, 2009)

I understand, I apologize, and I'll try to do better.


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## Miss Vickie (Nov 4, 2009)

I've been reading this thread (and the others) with some interest, and trying to figure out where I stand in all this. Frankly, I'm one of the people who has an issue with some of the more egregious examples of objectification that have been posted, and an enormous problem (pun intended) with the humiliation stories. I'm not going to apologize for that, or for anything I've said in those threads because I think I tried to express myself honestly and respectfully, despite being called a prude, a member of some super secret society, etc. 

With regard to whether Dimensions has become "too PC" or too "full of forum bullies", I will say this: There is a little bit of bully and a little bit of victim in all of us. Anyone who denies that doesn't know themselves very well. We all have the capacity to be incredibly kind and incredibly horrible to each other, and none of us is better or worse than the other.

I think we should try to keep that in mind when talking to each other.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 4, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> With regard to whether Dimensions has become "too PC" or too "full of forum bullies", I will say this: There is a little bit of bully and a little bit of victim in all of us. Anyone who denies that doesn't know themselves very well. We all have the capacity to be incredibly kind and incredibly horrible to each other, and none of us is better or worse than the other.



Yes. This.

I'm seeing some astonishing displays right now from people who are pointing the bully fingers, and wondering, how could they not know that they are actually a *huge* part of the problem, and are themselves actively creating the environment that they claim to despise?

I freely acknowledge that sometimes, I'm an outright bitch. I have my reasons, justifications, explanations ... but when all is said and done, taking swipes at people who annoy me is hardly mature behavior. At least I'm honest with myself, and with others, to the extent that I'm capable of it (aware, in other words). Problem is: I'm not alone here. And this is never going to go away until EVERYONE who is taking an active role in creating or perpetuating the drama begins with some very pointed introspection.


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## cheekyjez (Nov 4, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> What of a person of differing race, or culture etc. to that being questioned bringing an issue or question to the table for discussion or debate, why should it be treated any different than if someone not of these groups did so?


I think the motive someone has for asking a question is important in determining an appropriate response. The questioneer's background is a factor in a crude examination of that motive.

As an example, I'd look at Les Toil's "Big butts, still just a black thing?" thread from the last couple of months. Coming from a straight male black FA, it's a request for information on other FA's preferences. If it were posted by a pear-shaped BBW, the question would have a different tenor entirely.



rollhandler said:


> There is an atmosphere of fear that asking a question with any social import or relevance is going to be met with anger, derision, or an immature lashing out at those asking and others answering the question that may offend someone.



First of all, all of your posts that I've seen have been well thought out, considerate, and articulate. The same is not true of several other posters - who will say something immensely insensitive - often as a supposition in the form of a question. As a hypothetical example, "Why are thin women such mean-spirited bitches?" is something that I could see posed as a question here, and something that some of the FFAs might take a little personally.

From the other side - I get a lot of personal joy from being viciously witty at people. In order to use my powers for good instead of evil, I target my barbs at people who:
a) Have made an incredibly offensive statement
b) When the reasons why the statement was offensive are explained, have kept on digging


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Nov 4, 2009)

Miss Vickie said:


> I've been reading this thread (and the others) with some interest, and trying to figure out where I stand in all this. Frankly, I'm one of the people who has an issue with some of the more egregious examples of objectification that have been posted, and an enormous problem (pun intended) with the humiliation stories. I'm not going to apologize for that, or for anything I've said in those threads because I think I tried to express myself honestly and respectfully, despite being called a prude, a member of some super secret society, etc.
> 
> With regard to whether Dimensions has become "too PC" or too "full of forum bullies", I will say this: There is a little bit of bully and a little bit of victim in all of us. Anyone who denies that doesn't know themselves very well. We all have the capacity to be incredibly kind and incredibly horrible to each other, and none of us is better or worse than the other.
> 
> I think we should try to keep that in mind when talking to each other.




Indeed......QFT.

It amazes how me how people will "gang up" and be incredibly nasty....to the very people they are accusing of ganging up and being nasty. Then try to act as if they did nothing wrong themselves.......:blink:

I suppose I have this really simple mentally of: If you regard yourself better than someone else.....then act/behave better than someone else. 

Or that old expression:
Never argue with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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## Edens_heel (Nov 4, 2009)

Interesting topic...

I've found, in recent months, that I can only stomach to make periodic posts in mostly lounge-based threads, as there are simply too many people here who want nothing more than to shit on everyone's parade, or join a mob and rush some poor soul looking for understanding of -any- kind, even if they don't always express it in the most kosher manner. This is actually why I was thrilled to see Hyde Park go, and honestly, if it was ever reinstated, I'd most likely bail from Dims for good.

I will not single out anyone, but there are simply too many I've come across, either through threads or PM's, that I wish I had never met for the simple fact that they lack any and all decency or decorum.

God, to go back to the days before the internet, when our rants and raves were confined to the poor members of our family who were sadly subjected to them... I kinda wish we could go back to that actually.

I think forums of all types inevitably bring out the worst in people, because -everyone- has a voice, and -everyone- believes their voice is the only one in the world that matters, even if they claim otherwise at first. That's partially why I will sometimes post a new thread, but won't follow it up with any further posts - because I don't feel like debating anyone, especially when I know said debate will invariably devolve into a "fuck you," "no, fuck YOU," contest. It's just not worth it. I think killing Hyde Park was the first step in attempting to bring decorum back to Dims, but there is still a LONG way to go.

Cheers.


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## exile in thighville (Nov 4, 2009)

easy solution's to ban the fat people


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## exile in thighville (Nov 4, 2009)

i don't see anyone else coming up with options


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## Fascinita (Nov 5, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> I kinda wish we could go back to that actually.



Harvard! Class of '39?


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## rollhandler (Nov 5, 2009)

exile in thighville said:


> i don't see anyone else coming up with options



The only advice I have here is when a flame war starts, don't add more wind to it. Continue to post but answer the thread topic and not the argument. An argument cannot continue without fuel and eventually someone ends up being the lone voice trying to have a fight with only one side. Good threads with great social import are being stopped dead because the ones with something to say are avoiding the area. My best advice in posting is to read the threads that add to it, to see if what you have to say has already been said, and then compose your post dealing directly with the spirit of the original posters question in mind. Most of the time I copy the original post to a word document, along with whatever I wish to quote if anything, and work offline on what I wish to say. This gives me time to work on it edit my work, and the option to leave it for a while and gather my thoughts only copying my work when I am satisfied that I have said what I wanted to. If something in the thread pissed me off it allows me to respond after time to reflect on the intent of the offending post and respond in a more respectful less reactionary or inflammatory manner. This is a process of posting I felt was needed after involving myself in just the same behaviour last year that I gripe about this year. My quality of post has improved greatly, I offend less, and find that others notice and have mentioned privately to me that my work is being perceived as articulate, well thought out, and respectful of the thoughts of others. To these people again I say thank you for letting me know that I am on the right track. So, I know the process works, at least for me. It's far from perfect but it does have the ability to improve the quality of posts, and gives the offended party time to cool off and respond to the offense without sniping. Actually it seems that the only issues that seem to arise from my posts since I started doing this is when I fall out of this type of posting behaviour and type off the top of my head for a post, without taking the time to consider the quality of content.
Rollhandler


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## rollhandler (Nov 5, 2009)

Edens_heel said:


> Interesting topic...
> 
> I've found, in recent months, that I can only stomach to make periodic posts in mostly lounge-based threads, as there are simply too many people here who want nothing more than to shit on everyone's parade, or join a mob and rush some poor soul looking for understanding of -any- kind, even if they don't always express it in the most kosher manner. This is actually why I was thrilled to see Hyde Park go, and honestly, if it was ever reinstated, I'd most likely bail from Dims for good.
> 
> ...



I totally missed the exit of Hyde Park and did not find out that it was gone for months after the fact. I rarely enter into "public" discussions involving religion, politics, music tastes or other highly charged passionate topics of discussion. In private or with individuals is another story. As such I am not familiar with the nature of its demise as a forum board, however I believe Conrad would not have taken down such a potentially valuable resource for discussion unless it was obviously being abused with no viable quality of redemption. If he believed that it's purpose was not being served as intended or was detrimental to the overall health of the forum, I am not going to be one to disagree with him.
Rollhandler


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## TallFatSue (Nov 5, 2009)

rollhandler said:


> I totally missed the exit of Hyde Park and did not find out that it was gone for months after the fact. I rarely enter into "public" discussions involving religion, politics, music tastes or other highly charged passionate topics of discussion. In private or with individuals is another story. As such I am not familiar with the nature of its demise as a forum board, however I believe Conrad would not have taken down such a potentially valuable resource for discussion unless it was obviously being abused with no viable quality of redemption. If he believed that it's purpose was not being served as intended or was detrimental to the overall health of the forum, I am not going to be one to disagree with him.
> Rollhandler


I rarely participated in Hyde Park, but my impression was it did breed hostility and discontent. Conrad runs a good ship, so if he saw fit to terminate that forum, I support his decision. However could some of that discontent have sought outlets in the other forums? The timing seems about right. 

I'd be the first to admit I'm strong-willed and opinionated, and I do come on strong, so chances are my voicing my opinions in cold hard text rubs some people the wrong way. I'll try to be better about that in future. I like to think that I can view the world from more than my own tiny perspective, and meet others halfway, but I'll need to work on that too. Come to think of it, that's why I'm here: to share my own experiences, which have been far more positive and negative, but more importantly to learn from others' experiences. It is not my intent to one-up anyone. Oh well, the first step to solve any problem is to recognize it, so I'll put my best foot forward -- no offense to my other foot! 

When I was growing up, I became the stereotypical funny fat girl as a defense mechanism which worked amazingly well. Humor is how I learned to deal with life, as very round peg in a world designed for squares, trying to maneuver my yacht-sized body through a sea of row-boats. I can be a real wise ass, and given the size of my ass, I must be loaded with wisdom.  Unfortunately, being a wise ass can be seen as funny in person but just plain obnoxious online.  In person, I can deliver the same opinions, and my facial and body language can dramatically shade the meanings to add a positive spin which simply doesn't exist in text form, with or without smileys. 

My husband is equally strong-willed and opinionated, so sometimes the sparks do fly between us. So far we've managed to avoid flash fires because in person we can at least wrestle for it. My not-so-secret weapon is he's a sucker for a faceful of my fat, and his not-so-secret weapon is I'm verrrry ticklish. Even that can backfire. Once when he tickled me, my reflexes practically kicked his head off. Wow, I have strong muscles under my fat! After that, it took me a half-hour to coax him back out from behind the sofa. Let that be a warning against literal knee-jerk reactions. Suzy Bigfoot struck again. :doh:


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## mergirl (Nov 5, 2009)

Subscribing....just cause i like the beat poetry feel of the title!


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## Lovelyone (Nov 5, 2009)

I have to say that your first paragraph pretty much took the words out of my mouth. I find myself leaving occasionally due to the flame wars and coming back after many months..to see if anything has changed. For the most part it hasn't, and that saddens me.

I do have to say that I disagree with you in regard to what you had to say about everyone thinking that their voice is the only one that matters. If that were the case, there would be no need for the forums because who would care about what others have to say? 

As I have stated in previous posts on these forums...I come here for enlightenment. I come here to laugh with,cry with, celebrate, commiserate with, learn with, learn about...myself and others like me. I can't tell you how many times I have read something that someone has typed and realized (at last) that I wasn't the ONLY person in the world who felt that way, or has dealt with a certain health problem, or other issue that has made its presence known in this community. I've learned more about myself from reading about experiences of others than I could learn in a mainstream environment. Its extremely uplifting to find that others have had the same issues and found ways to deal with them. This forum could be, has been, can still be, might become something phenomenal (all depending on how you feel about your singular participation here). Reading a post on these forums can sometimes lift the weight of the world off of a plus-sized person's shoulders. I know..its happened to me at some of the lowest times of my life. However, this forum is not the end all/be all cosmic wonder of the fat universe. I've found that there were almost as many times that I became discouraged reading a post as there have been positive experiences (speaking only for myself, of course). 

On the other hand, I am not innocent in my taking part in a flame war. There have been times that I popped off at someone that I felt was being disrespectful to me or to others, and it started a flame war. That flame war sucked in people who weren't even involved in the initial argument because their flame war/forum buddies had been confronted by me. They werent shy about voicing their opinion about me..and I wasn't shy about defending myself. I was punished by the forum Gods, and had my typing fingers slapped for naughtiness. Personally, I dont think that all flame wars are about the topic at hand. I think there are undermining issues that create a flame war...and in a community like this its easy to stray from topic and involve your personal fears, issues, ideals, etc. When you do that you open yourself up to criticism, opposing viewpoints, and negativity, which doesnt necessarily have to be construed as a bad thing, but rather a learning point. It is when its taken to the point of a personal attack that things go awry. Not everyone reacts to each post in the same fashion.

What I learned from those flame wars is that if you have an opinion...that differs from the forums bullies..they gang up on you, tear you apart, and basically turn what could be a learning experience into something negative, uninformative, and completely discouraging. What I learned from those instances was that as a forum participant I have a right to my opinion..but in some cases its just not a good idea to type them down in forum verse, especially since I am not part of one of the forum cliques. There are several and anyone who says otherwise is just in denial. I am not saying that cliques are a bad thing..I am just stating that a LOT of people here aren't in them and have no online forum supporters other than the occasional kudos/rep points that we receive in our control panels.

What I learned from that flame war is to avoid the threads that are overtly active with those particular members whom I tend to regualrly disagree with--or who get me so riled that I want to post something back to them that might get me in trouble...which in essence defeats the whole purpose of coming to these forums for support in the first place. Perhaps what I find to be most defeating and disturbing is that many, many, many people have stated that these problems exist..that there are flame wars, riot inciters, and people just looking for a reason to pick apart others whom are only here for moral support, friendship, and to learn more about themselves--and nothing seems to be done about that problem. 
Sad, really. 




Edens_heel said:


> Interesting topic...
> 
> I've found, in recent months, that I can only stomach to make periodic posts in mostly lounge-based threads, as there are simply too many people here who want nothing more than to shit on everyone's parade, or join a mob and rush some poor soul looking for understanding of -any- kind, even if they don't always express it in the most kosher manner. This is actually why I was thrilled to see Hyde Park go, and honestly, if it was ever reinstated, I'd most likely bail from Dims for good.
> 
> ...


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## cheekyjez (Nov 5, 2009)

mergirl said:


> Subscribing....just cause i like the beat poetry feel of the title!



You just can't ignore 'em?


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## mergirl (Nov 6, 2009)

cheekyjez said:


> You just can't ignore 'em?


No..its like a sickness. 
I wish all titles had to be written beat poetry style.. *dreams*
Lol..actually, i am interested in what people have to say here but i didnt have time to write anything last night.


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## LisaInNC (Nov 6, 2009)

I am sorry but I cant understand why there has to be such a fuss put up about it. Apparently, the parties involved in flame wars actually relish in the attention or their abusers would have been put on ignore a long time ago. Thus ending the back and forth crap that goes on. 
Furthermore, this shit has seeped into other forums BECAUSE Hyde Park is gone. Ever since the removal of Hyde Park, I always see posts about people bitching about the bullying. When you would go to Hyde Park you KNEW someone was gonna try to rip you a new one. Expectations of anyone being nice were gone as soon as you clicked the link. Which is why I never understood the removal of it. Hyde Park was not for the weak and should be brought back with a enter at your own risk sign. Then everyone would know that if you get your feelings hurt easily, you shouldnt go in. 
This may come as a shock to a lot of the people on these boards but everyone is not always going to like everyone else. Here and in the real world.


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## mergirl (Nov 6, 2009)

LisaInNC said:


> Apparently, the parties involved in flame wars actually relish in the attention or their abusers would have been put on ignore a long time ago. Thus ending the back and forth crap that goes on.
> .



Hmmm.. THIS..yes!!.. I had never thought about it like that before.. but it makes perfect sense. I would rep you if i had rep to give..but alas i am a rep slaaaaag! 
Maby this is the only surefire way to totally avoid conflict...you might also avoid a lot of learning too though..which is the down side. At times i have learned quite a bit from people i have had a wee battle with.. even if its just how to ignore or how to resolve or even how to agree to disagree.


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## butch (Nov 6, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Yes. This.
> 
> I'm seeing some astonishing displays right now from people who are pointing the bully fingers, and wondering, how could they not know that they are actually a *huge* part of the problem, and are themselves actively creating the environment that they claim to despise?
> 
> I freely acknowledge that sometimes, I'm an outright bitch. I have my reasons, justifications, explanations ... but when all is said and done, taking swipes at people who annoy me is hardly mature behavior. At least I'm honest with myself, and with others, to the extent that I'm capable of it (aware, in other words). Problem is: I'm not alone here. And this is never going to go away until EVERYONE who is taking an active role in creating or perpetuating the drama begins with some very pointed introspection.



Your post makes me wonder, what next? In other words, if we all are able to look in the mirror and truly see ourselves from all angles, and to take responsibility for our best and worst natures when it comes to Dims, what happens with that information? Do we just issue it as a disclaimer as we continue to indulge in our less than ideal behaviors on the board? Or do we try to reform? This is a general question, and not directed at you, TraciJo, but I bet you'll have something intelligent and compelling to say about this, so please post if you're able.

I guess I ask because self-awareness is only part of the process, isn't it? Its what we do with that awareness that counts, and when I 'get real' with myself (thanks, Dr. Phil ), I do strive to change the behavior that I know will stir shit or be too attention seeking and what not. I've always appreciated people who own their behavior, even if I don't like the behavior, but I know for myself I spent much too long thinking that was all I needed to do. When I began to see I could and should do more, that was a wonderful thing. I'm not always good at it, and sometimes I stumble, and act like a douche here, but I hope as I keep practicing the next step after self awareness, the douchery and the attention seeking goes down.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 6, 2009)

butch said:


> Your post makes me wonder, what next? In other words, if we all are able to look in the mirror and truly see ourselves from all angles, and to take responsibility for our best and worst natures when it comes to Dims, what happens with that information? Do we just issue it as a disclaimer as we continue to indulge in our less than ideal behaviors on the board? Or do we try to reform? This is a general question, and not directed at you, TraciJo, but I bet you'll have something intelligent and compelling to say about this, so please post if you're able.
> 
> I guess I ask because self-awareness is only part of the process, isn't it? Its what we do with that awareness that counts, and when I 'get real' with myself (thanks, Dr. Phil ), I do strive to change the behavior that I know will stir shit or be too attention seeking and what not. I've always appreciated people who own their behavior, even if I don't like the behavior, but I know for myself I spent much too long thinking that was all I needed to do. When I began to see I could and should do more, that was a wonderful thing. I'm not always good at it, and sometimes I stumble, and act like a douche here, but I hope as I keep practicing the next step after self awareness, the douchery and the attention seeking goes down.



Butch, I get what you're saying (on all levels, believe me, I do ). It's an interesting question, and of course it is a valid one too. I wasn't -- for my part -- just suggesting that it's OK to be an unmitigated douche, so long as it's acknowledged. But a very huge piece of that puzzle is that yes, it has to *be* acknowledged first, before anything changes at all. What I'm seeing is a lot of really, really bad behavior -- some of it on my part, although contrary to the opinion of some, I don't go into a 'battle' with the intent of bullying someone. A lot of times, I just don't stop to consider the impact of something that I've said, and the possibility that it's going to be misconstrued (either intentionally or otherwise). And the truth is, I don't always couch how I express a debating point euphemistically-- as you've done above. And believe me, that's not criticism. I do understand that you're trying to build bridges here, and I respect that. 

I've been thinking about this, prior to reading your post, Butch. For the past few days, I've been telling myself ... read, don't post - not while you're angry. Now, I'm trying to convince myself to stop reading altogether, because I can't seem to resist the pull of opening my flapping e-yap, and posting when I'm angry is not a good idea. FWIW, I don't like what I see going on here, either. I am very sincere. I think that some people have genuinely gotten their feelings hurt. Flame wars erupt around here constantly, but there's something about this one that feels more substantial, and with the possibility of causing real harm. For my part, I have to acknowledge that I do not have the ability, the influence, the power, to change minds. Hell, I can't even seem to get people just to acknowledge my point of view. There is a level of arrogance and pall of manipulative intent over believing that it's possible to change someone else's belief. Intellectually, I know how futile it is (and at times, just outright ... wrong). It is still something I grapple with ... if only I can find the right words, if only I can paint this picture or move these puzzle pieces in such a way to really illuminate ... surely, surely [the general] you will understand and ... AGREE! 

Before I answer your real question -- where do we go from here? -- I want to ask this one: If those who are contributing to this cluster of a mother of a holy, outrageous mess will not acknowledge their part in it, at least to themselves, where CAN we go? I know that at least some people here think that I *am* the problem -- along with my phantom group of A-listers, COF groupies, etc. If I just stopped posting, and went away altogether, do you think that the problem would really cease to exist? I don't. I think that this has become something far, far more than a divisive group of individuals who merely dislike each other. Both sides feel that they are being demonized, misunderstood, and that some of their core beliefs are being threatened. It is very, very difficult to take a deep breath and a step back when you feel that the essence of who you are is getting trampled on. But it is also ... necessary. 

I am questioning it myself ... what is it that I am holding onto, that I cannot take a step back and try to at least acknowledge the viewpoint of the other side? What exactly would I have to let go of, in order for that to happen? 

As to what I plan on doing, Butch ... the only thing that I can commit to, at this point, is to stop engaging certain people, at all, in any way (which includes the oh-so-popular Ye Tried 'n True Indirect Inference). I can see that any contribution I make, at all, even the most innocuous in some circumstances, is going to be seen as provocative. I am partially responsible, in that some of us have an unpleasant history and past events are probably influencing current ones. 

I wish I felt confident that the rest of the pack o' wolves would separate themselves for a moment and give real consideration to what I've said about acknowledging your own shit. I don't  Where does that leave us?


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## mergirl (Nov 6, 2009)

Am 'i' right? I believe that gay people should have the same rights as straight people. I know i am right! There are people who very much believe gay people should not have equal rights and infact gay people do not have the right to exist. They believe they are right. They will not change their minds (many of them wont) and i certainly wont change mine. We could argue the point around and around all day. Maby it is better just not to share a space with people who believe this. I can live in a community that is like minded and the haters can be left to stew in their own stink for all i care. If however some haters encroach the space i inhabit i am forced to fight until my last breath because if i don't, my life and the lives of others wouldn't be worth living. Sometimes its knowing when to stay out the way and when to fight and weighing up the worth and cost of these decisions. This analogy works in any settings where two groups of people feel utterly passionate about something in the opposite direction.


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## butch (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you for the response, TraciJo. I really want to respond, because I like the thoughtful and honest response, but I'm running late in starting my day. Hopefully others will take up these questions and thoughts in the meantime and make this discussion something that we all can learn from.

Take care.


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## Lovelyone (Nov 6, 2009)

LisaInNC said:


> I am sorry but I cant understand why there has to be such a fuss put up about it. Apparently, the parties involved in flame wars actually relish in the attention or their abusers would have been put on ignore a long time ago. Thus ending the back and forth crap that goes on.


 
Lisa, I always enjoyed your posts. You are direct and to the point. However (and I am ONLY speaking for myself here) I've learned that even the people who rile me up can teach me something about myself. Those people who have differing ideas, thoughts and opinions from mine, allow me to see sometimes how closed-minded I can be. Other times I find myself thinking "Why in hell am I reading what this person has to say? I NEVER agree with them" but I continue to read, cos their voices are just as important as mine. If I can learn something from an opposing point of view--even if its just tolerance of thier opinions--I think that makes me a better person in the long run. IMHO, EVERYONE has something to offer, even the people who piss me off.


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## LisaInNC (Nov 7, 2009)

Ok I am sorry for any confusion. I didnt mean to ignore EVERYONE who pisses you off. I was refering to the people who do it just for shits and giggles. I dont want to name names but we all know there are a few people who CONSTANTLY bicker back and forth on EVERY thread. My solution was for them. They should ignore one another and their dims experience would be a happier one.


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## butch (Nov 10, 2009)

TraciJo, sorry it has taken me so long to reply, like I said I would. You've hit the nail on the head so many times in your post, that I'm not sure I have much to add. However, do you really think there are only 2 sides in the current debates that are going on? I think there are many, but in order to be heard, one feels like they have to pick one side or the other. That is what frustrates me the most, that there seems to be this 'either/or' mentality going on, and since I feel like I'm not fully on either side, I get frustrated and I don't want to work towards the dialogue that might make things better, because there seems to be no ground for those of us who haven't fully embraced one side or the other.

Personally, I'm sad that I've gotten the feeling of a cold shoulder from many folks who I never felt that from before, and the only thing I can think of for why is because I'm a mod. I don't act any different, or have different opinions, about Dims or anything else fat related, since I've become a mod. I'm sure that is completely off topic, but it is about decorum, and I've long struggled with the thought that no matter what I post here, it will be imbuded with some level of 'authority' that I don't possess, and feels oppressive in a way my words never did before, no matter how harsh. I've given pretty good back in the day, and now I mourn the fact that I really can't do that anymore, because my words aren't my own anymore, they're seen somehow as representative of 'Dimensions.' 

Don't cry for me, Argentina, it comes with the job.  Perhaps my "lament of a mod" should be posted somewhere else, and perhaps it has nothing to do with your post, TraciJo. Back on topic: I wish I knew what would get people to be more self-aware and own their own shit. Its taken me almost half my life to figure that out, and I still know I have blind spots. Perhaps, as Fascinita rightly reminds us, we can only search for compassion, for ourselves and for others, and try to seek connection and resolution through that. 

I will say that a lot of my growth has come from this site, in both ways expected (the community of awesome fat folks and FAs who have understood, offered advice, and care), and unexpected (learning to stand up for myself through heated debate, and integrating the complex and conflicting aspects of my sense of self related to my body and my sexuality). i want that for others, if this is the place for that, but I also recognize that this site can't be that for everyone, and in that case, I'd like to have a resource for those who need something different. Perhaps we could have a sticky in the BBW Forum, for example, with links to other websites that might be useful for folks who aren't getting the same sort of self-enhancing things out of Dims that I am.

Thanks again for responding so honestly and smartly, TraciJo. I wish there was more discussion of how we can 'mediate' through our issues as a community, and perhaps they are happening in places and spaces I haven't visited yet.


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## fatgirlflyin (Nov 10, 2009)

butch said:


> Personally, I'm sad that I've gotten the feeling of a cold shoulder from many folks who I never felt that from before, and the only thing I can think of for why is because I'm a mod. I don't act any different, or have different opinions, about Dims or anything else fat related, since I've become a mod. I'm sure that is completely off topic, but it is about decorum, and I've long struggled with the thought that no matter what I post here, it will be imbuded with some level of 'authority' that I don't possess, and feels oppressive in a way my words never did before, no matter how harsh. I've given pretty good back in the day, and now I mourn the fact that I really can't do that anymore, because my words aren't my own anymore, they're seen somehow as representative of 'Dimensions.'



Butch, I don't have the time (or energy really) to go back and dig up posts from before you were a mod and after you became a mod, to compare here side by side but I will say that to ME there has been a change in the tone of your posts. For example, your posts recently seem to have a more "shame on you" tone than before, and your recent PHD comment really offended me. Whether or not that has anything to do with you becoming a moderator here, I can't say since I don't really know you away from Dimensions. For what its worth, I don't view the words of moderators as the words of Dimensions unless they state that they are speaking from a mod viewpoint. 

Maybe its me though, my opinions of this site have changed drastically within these last few months and maybe its colored the way I read and respond to other posters. Anyway, you seem like a smart, cool lady and I hope you get your voice back.


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## butch (Nov 11, 2009)

fatgirlflyin said:


> Butch, I don't have the time (or energy really) to go back and dig up posts from before you were a mod and after you became a mod, to compare here side by side but I will say that to ME there has been a change in the tone of your posts. For example, your posts recently seem to have a more "shame on you" tone than before, and your recent PHD comment really offended me. Whether or not that has anything to do with you becoming a moderator here, I can't say since I don't really know you away from Dimensions. For what its worth, I don't view the words of moderators as the words of Dimensions unless they state that they are speaking from a mod viewpoint.
> 
> Maybe its me though, my opinions of this site have changed drastically within these last few months and maybe its colored the way I read and respond to other posters. Anyway, you seem like a smart, cool lady and I hope you get your voice back.



Thanks for the response. In thinking about it, you may be right, but not completely, and not for the reason people might think. I have much less time to spend on Dims lately, so I don't post as much, and when I do, it seems to be only when I'm really motivated to. Because I don't spend as much time reading all the stuff on the boards, I tend to see mostly the stuff from the mod boards, which is usually only about negative things, the complaints, the reported posts, etc, and that colors my vision. I can now recognize that it influences how I post, in that I have less patience for things that feel like they invalidate my experiences.

However, two things that seem important to add-I don't post in the way that you describe in the GLBTQ board, because that board is almost always drama free. I don't obviously respond well to drama these days. Secondly, in my own evolution, I'm much less interested in being a people pleaser, and folks see that on the boards today. I used to care desperately what everyone on this board thought about me, and now, not so much. I do care about how some people think of me, but they are people who I feel like I've made some sort of connection with, and yet, if I can't be myself, and find a space of acceptance for that, then it isn't in my best interest to continue to people please here or anywhere else to spare people's feelings.

I'm sorry to have made this thread all about me, and I do appreciate your comment, FGF. It is always good to have some self-reflection, and to strive to be objective about one's own motivations and behaviors. I've been struggling lately with my participation on the boards, and since I only seem to be a cold snobby person when I post anywhere other than the GLBTQ board, I'll try to contain myself to that board in the future.

Please, now, someone post something that has absolutely nothing to do with me, so we can get off the all Butch all the time thread.


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## TraciJo67 (Nov 12, 2009)

Butch, no apology necessary. You didn't owe me a response, although I am glad to see that you gave one. I am sorry to hear that you feel somewhat alienated as a result of taking on a moderating task. I haven't personally seen that, but I'm not minimizing your feelings -- I'm just not sure how to respond, because my opinion of and [infrequent )interactions with you (even when I disagree) have been positive, in my mind. 

I did want to comment on the "we don't have PhDs" line. I do understand why some people got their feathers ruffled, but at the same time, there's some irony in that many of us *are* confusing the term fetish with the notion of a preference, even a very strong preference. I do understand the meaning behind the term, but I can't begin to understand the practical applications since I don't identify as a woman with a fetish. I have strong preferences, as many of us do, but I do not require and/or fixate on an inanimate object or a certain "type" in order to achieve sexual fulfillment (Disclaimer: I'm not attaching judgment to the term, only my interpretation of the so-called textbook definition of a fetish). I did understand the point that you were trying to make, and I know that you weren't suggesting that only exceedingly well-educated people should discuss it. Just expressing frustration that [the general] we aren't taking the time to even familiarize ourselves with the term. I have to admit, I cannot conceptualize it, and thus have to subtract myself from any well-informed discussion of it (doesn't mean I won't share an armchair analyst opinion or two ). 

To the topic at hand, I'm not sure that everyone can mediate differences in ways that will have positive outcomes here (or anywhere else, for that matter). The hope for making any headway at all would have to first hinge upon everyone stepping back and examining his/her role in these nasty & unpleasant conflicts and, to be starkly honest, I think that some people simply don't want to take a deep breath and a step back, and never will. That's OK. I can only adjust how I react, not control how anyone else is going to. 

One last thing, regarding the wearing of the 'Dimensions Moderator' hat: Butch, if I took on that thankless task, I would know in advance that many in this community would begin to associate anything I have to say with my role as a moderator (i.e., a member of the 'establishment' ). I'm sure that you realize this. I hope that you don't take it too personally. FWIW, it is abundantly clear that many people here adore you. And I can see why that would be so :bow:






butch said:


> TraciJo, sorry it has taken me so long to reply, like I said I would. You've hit the nail on the head so many times in your post, that I'm not sure I have much to add. However, do you really think there are only 2 sides in the current debates that are going on? I think there are many, but in order to be heard, one feels like they have to pick one side or the other. That is what frustrates me the most, that there seems to be this 'either/or' mentality going on, and since I feel like I'm not fully on either side, I get frustrated and I don't want to work towards the dialogue that might make things better, because there seems to be no ground for those of us who haven't fully embraced one side or the other.
> 
> Personally, I'm sad that I've gotten the feeling of a cold shoulder from many folks who I never felt that from before, and the only thing I can think of for why is because I'm a mod. I don't act any different, or have different opinions, about Dims or anything else fat related, since I've become a mod. I'm sure that is completely off topic, but it is about decorum, and I've long struggled with the thought that no matter what I post here, it will be imbuded with some level of 'authority' that I don't possess, and feels oppressive in a way my words never did before, no matter how harsh. I've given pretty good back in the day, and now I mourn the fact that I really can't do that anymore, because my words aren't my own anymore, they're seen somehow as representative of 'Dimensions.'
> 
> ...


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