# Being a long Distance parent



## Haunted (Mar 2, 2009)

I'v been wanting to get this out there maybe here some advice Good and or bad. i'v resisted posting tis before because i'm not sure i want to hear the negative but i think some of the negative will raise questions that i need to ask myself. 

as you may or may not know I'm involved in a long distance relationship with someone from dim's, we very much want to be together. the problem is that we each have kids, She has 3 girls and she has primary custody of them, I have a little girl and i get visitation with her everyother weekend. the goal has always been for everyone to be on the here on the East coast, we both agree that the school's here are better then where she is, i would be able to provide better for all of them here (Presumably i really don't know what opportunities i could find out there). now in order to do that she would need to either get sole custody of the kids or get the courts to grant her the right to leave the state with them. (Highly unlikely in any short term sense! we are looking at years of fighting for either to work out) and even if she could work all that out then i'm ripping four people away from everything they know. 

The easy answer is me moving there, i'm only one person i don't have much to relocate and my company is international with many offices in every state and within an hour of most towns. The one thing that makes this all so difficult is leaving my daughter behind, (this is a very emotional topic for me) I don't want her to feel like i'm abandoning her. I do plan on having her come to visit and to come back here often to see her!

I guess My fears are all based on my mom and her father, Her parents divorced when she was around 12 and her dad although didn't move very far away he was never part of her life and she majorly resents him for it. I do stay in touch with my daughter and i call her almost every night and i am very involved in her life. 

People do this all the time don't they? i mean fathers and daughters do survive long distance's right?. And wouldn't it be great for her to be able to spend her summers in California or winter break. 

Some may not understand why i would relocate for a relationship, but i truly believe she is the one, we started this trip based on honesty and understanding, we don't hide anything from each other, everything i do has her in mind. even though she's 3000 miles away. I don't look to her or our relationship to bring me happiness i know thats the wrong way to look at things but, i do know that together we can take on anything! 

I think i'm just looking for other perspectives from people who are unbiased and maybe have been through something similar.


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## Ivy (Mar 2, 2009)

what does your daughter think about it and how old is she? have you talked to her about it? for some reason this post really upset me. i can only speak for myself, but my father was somewhat absent from the time i was 6 and totally out of my life for 3-4 years of my life and it really had huge negative effect on me and still does. my dad and i are fine now, but the last time i was home he opted to get breakfast with his girlfriend instead of helping me with something and i was absolutely livid. i still get mad thinking about it, and he really does his best now. i can't imagine how pissed i would be if he moved all the way to the other side of the country for a girlfriend. i do understand that you are in a really rough place, and that there is no good solution to any of it, but your daughter needs you.

"And wouldn't it be great for her to be able to spend her summers in California or winter break. "

no, probably not. my dad lived about an hour away from my mom growing up in a much cooler area with loads of fun stuff. my mom's area is really rural and my dad lived in a hip section of cleveland (oxymoron? haha). i always resented the fact that he moved so far away because it meant spending my entire break spring/winter break away from my friends back home and not getting to see him randomly. everything had to be super planned out. it also sucks (and still does!) having to travel back and forth for things like holidays, birthdays, etc and not having him there for all of my school things.

in any case, good luck. i hope that you guys can work out something that works out for all of you.


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## Haunted (Mar 2, 2009)

Ivy said:


> what does your daughter think about it and how old is she? have you talked to her about it? for some reason this post really upset me. i can only speak for myself, but my father was somewhat absent from the time i was 6 and totally out of my life for 3-4 years of my life and it really had huge negative effect on me and still does. my dad and i are fine now, but the last time i was home he opted to get breakfast with his girlfriend instead of helping me with something and i was absolutely livid. i still get mad thinking about it, and he really does his best now. i can't imagine how pissed i would be if he moved all the way to the other side of the country for a girlfriend. i do understand that you are in a really rough place, and that there is no good solution to any of it, but your daughter needs you.
> 
> "And wouldn't it be great for her to be able to spend her summers in California or winter break. "
> 
> ...



thanks for the honest response. i'd like to think i'd be as involved as possible considering the distance. but then again i will never know how she really feels or how she will feel. She's 5 and no i haven't talked to her yet about it. her and i are heading out in april to visit my GF and her family in april though.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Mar 2, 2009)

wow. I would not want to be in your shoes. 

Having kids is hard and it changes e v e r y t h i n g.

Mike has a son. A 6 year old son. He was 3 when we got together or maybe just turned 4? I dunno. But anyways, as I do not have children, I had to move here to the UK. I couldn't bare to tear a loving father from his son. I hate it here, but I try not to take it out on the kid as he did nothing wrong. I try not to resent Mike for moving me here because all in all, it has gotten better. (and hey, on the bright side, it isn't a 3rd world country!!) Although I am still heartbroken over leaving aging relatives I was very close with.

I hate to say it, but no matter what you do, hearts are going to be broken, resentments will be born and lives will change forever.

Like I said, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.


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## stan_der_man (Mar 2, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> wow. I would not want to be in your shoes.
> 
> Having kids is hard and it changes e v e r y t h i n g.
> 
> ...



Exactly my thoughts Haunted... I don't know what it is like to be a long distance parent, but I know what it is like being a father to a 5 year old daughter and I have family on the other coast, so I know how geographical distances can separate families. Maybe if you can work out something where your daughter can spend summers (or some other block of time) with you each year, that is probably the best you can do. Air fares aren't necessarily that bad if your ex on the other coast will go halfies and if you plan things smartly to get the best price on plane tickets ahead of time. That is the only suggestion I can think of.


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## Haunted (Mar 2, 2009)

fa_man_stan said:


> Exactly my thoughts Haunted... I don't know what it is like to be a long distance parent, but I know what it is like being a father to a 5 year old daughter and I have family on the other coast, so I know how geographical distances can separate families. Maybe if you can work out something where your daughter can spend summers (or some other block of time) with you each year, that is probably the best you can do. Air fares aren't necessarily that bad if your ex on the other coast will go halfies and if you plan things smartly to get the best price on plane tickets ahead of time. That is the only suggestion I can think of.



Thanks stan this is exactly what i was hoping to arrange. 

Ivy did bring up something to consider, though pulling her away from her friends for long periods etc. i suppose i could leave it up to her to decide whether she comes and for how long. and she'd have 3 step sisters there so it might not be so bad. 

anyway you look at it hearts will be broken. i'd like to think i can make it work to the best possible outcome but there's no telling what and how.


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## mimosa (Mar 2, 2009)

No matter what you decide, please do the best you can to keep in touch with your daughter. 

A person can live in the same town...maybe even in the same home and still be distant from loved ones. I know this too well.

My Dad lived in the SAME TOWN for 3 years after my mom and dad divorced. I think I saw him two times. One time for 15 minutes when I turned 15 years old. And a second time when he brought my sister and I some fast food. 

By the grace of God I have forgiven my father for not being there for me as a young teenager. My father and I now have a loving relationship. 

Yes, my Dad not being there for me affected me as a teenager very much. (If you are one of my close online friends.....you know the rest of the story.)


But I wish you and your family many blessings and love Take care.


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## fatgirlflyin (Mar 2, 2009)

Haunted said:


> Thanks stan this is exactly what i was hoping to arrange.
> 
> Ivy did bring up something to consider, though pulling her away from her friends for long periods etc. i suppose i could leave it up to her to decide whether she comes and for how long. and she'd have 3 step sisters there so it might not be so bad.
> 
> anyway you look at it hearts will be broken. i'd like to think i can make it work to the best possible outcome but there's no telling what and how.



She will get over having to leave her friends behind for a few weeks out of the year, they will still be there when she gets back. You can be a perfectly fine father without living in the same town as your child. You already said you talk to her every night, make sure that behavior continues. Maybe you and your ex can strike up some kind of a deal where you each pay for one round trip ticket per month so that your daughter can come visit you. While it wont be every weekend it would be every other. I also think its important that if/when she did come to visit that you set up some alone time with her, 3 step sisters or no she's gonna want Daddy time without the new siblings being in the way.

California isn't a cheap place to live. I wish you luck.


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## KaliCurves (Mar 2, 2009)

I just wanted to put my two cents in here, since I'm the girlfriend.
I will make sure he stays in contact with his daughter, and that they see each other as often as possible. I will make sure that he webcams with her as often as she wants. That he will send cards, gifts, letters, and videos. No matter how far away he is I will help him to stay and active part in her life. And one day WE WILL MOVE BACK HOME.


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## mossystate (Mar 2, 2009)

Five years old....such a tender age. Kids that age don't understand that they will get summers, and cams, and letters...etc.. Even when a parent is not there every day, the every other weekend is at least a routine of seeing the child, and the kid seeing the dad or mom. I am just thinking of the young one, as they are the most affected.


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## Ivy (Mar 2, 2009)

mossystate said:


> Five years old....such a tender age. Kids that age don't understand that they will get summers, and cams, and letters...etc.. Even when a parent is not there every day, the every other weekend is at least a routine of seeing the child, and the kid seeing the dad or mom. I am just thinking of the young one, as they are the most affected.



yes.. very much what mossy said. also, considering that she is 5 (i'm not sure when you were thinking of making the move) i wouldn't imagine her mom agreeing to let her travel alone all the way across the country for at least several years. i'm don't know you personally and i have no idea what your exwife is like or on what terms the marriage ended, but my mom wouldn't even let me go on trips with my father across state lines after they split up for several years and she would have never ever ever paid half of anything involving me spending time with my dad and his new wife. i also don't think it would be very fair to ask your exwife to pay half of your daughter's plane ticket since it would be your choice to move away and not hers. 

note: i was 6 when my parents divorced and it was very, very messy. i'm not saying your divorce was, i honestly have no idea about any of that. just speaking from my experience. hopefully none of this comes off as being judgmental or bitchy, i really do hope the best for all involved. i can tell you really love misty and that you have your daughters best interests in mind.


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## KaliCurves (Mar 2, 2009)

Their divorce ended on a pretty good note actually. I have met his ex wife, we had drinks and danced together! She is letting him bring his daughter here in April to spend a week with me and my daughters.

We have talked about how travel would work out, she has Aunts, and a Grandma whom Im sure would love to fly to Cali or Vegas for a visit with her, and we will pick them up or just her up, and then the other family member can fly out and pick her back up. We would pay for her airfare and Im sure offer to pay for part of theres also. Also Im sure he will want to fly home at least once a year for a visit also.

Thank you all for the responses, keep them coming!!





Ivy said:


> yes.. very much what mossy said. also, considering that she is 5 (i'm not sure when you were thinking of making the move) i wouldn't imagine her mom agreeing to let her travel alone all the way across the country for at least several years. i'm don't know you personally and i have no idea what your exwife is like or on what terms the marriage ended, but my mom wouldn't even let me go on trips with my father across state lines after they split up for several years and she would have never ever ever paid half of anything involving me spending time with my dad and his new wife. i also don't think it would be very fair to ask your exwife to pay half of your daughter's plane ticket since it would be your choice to move away and not hers.
> 
> note: i was 6 when my parents divorced and it was very, very messy. i'm not saying your divorce was, i honestly have no idea about any of that. just speaking from my experience. hopefully none of this comes off as being judgmental or bitchy, i really do hope the best for all involved. i can tell you really love misty and that you have your daughters best interests in mind.


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## Ivy (Mar 2, 2009)

KaliCurves said:


> Their divorce ended on a pretty good note actually. I have met his ex wife, we had drinks and danced together! She is letting him bring his daughter here in April to spend a week with me and my daughters.
> 
> We have talked about how travel would work out, she has Aunts, and a Grandma whom Im sure would love to fly to Cali or Vegas for a visit with her, and we will pick them up or just her up, and then the other family member can fly out and pick her back up. We would pay for her airfare and Im sure offer to pay for part of theres also. Also Im sure he will want to fly home at least once a year for a visit also.
> 
> Thank you all for the responses, keep them coming!!



aww! well that is awesome. i don't know many people who have ad amicable divorces.. my dad is in the middle of his 3rd divorce at the moment and it is definitely not easy. your travel plan does sound pretty doable and makes sense. i hope you guys work something out that works for everyone! xo


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm with Ivy in that this post totally disturbed me.

Since you asked for honesty, I'm going to give it to you. It sounds as if you're trying to justify abandoning your daughter. Webcams? Seriously? That is not parenting. When you became a parent....when you made the choice to bring another life into the world and be responsible for her, you should have absorbed a certain amount of selflessness.

Throughout my life my dad has consistently put his romantic relationships ahead of ours and it has permanently ruined it. We can get along for short periods of time, but I will never heal from the feeling of being made to feel unimportant and always second class in my father's eyes.

Your daughter is FIVE. You can't seriously believe that she's going to be hopping cross country every other weekend. You don't stick a five year old on the f**king redeye twice a month. As the nearest ADULT how easy that is. And what about when she wants to go to sleepover parties or take music lessons on weekends or gets sick? It's just not realistic to think she's going to be able to visit that often.

All I see in your post is constant justification for you doing what you want to do because it's going to make you happy. Clearly you're fine with leaving your child, so why come here and ask others to prop you up and tell you it's ok? It is what you want to do and obviously it fits in with your moral code. 

Save on the cost of the plane fare and put it towards the therapy she's going to need when she wraps her head around the fact that her father took off across the country to live with another woman's three daughters. How will she feel when she comes to visit and the stepsisters talk about fun things you all do? Or have private jokes she doesn't get? Or when you take her out to eat at your new family's favorite restaurant? She's going to be a perennial outsider in her own father's life and frankly it sucks.


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## mossystate (Mar 2, 2009)

Ummmmm.....this ^^^^^^ ....especially the last paragraph. The happiness the two adults feel is not something children will understand, so it becomes selfish. Yup.......this ^^^^^^. Really needed to be said.


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## fffff (Mar 2, 2009)

100% with LOVEBHMS

There is no way around it, your daughter is going to feel like she's being abandoned for your new family. She is 5 years old, if you move she is going to resent you for the rest of her life. 

Speaking as a daughter just reading this thread is really grossing it out.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 2, 2009)

The other thing I realized is that both you and Kali have repeatedly said that her daughters' father is a jerk. 

She's even written open letters calling him their "sperm donor" and posted many times about what a miserable person he is and how badly he treats their kids.

Unless I've missed something, I don't see why if somebody has to move cross country it should not be her kids. Why can't Kali's ex husband be the one to come cross country to see his daughters? That would be a LOT easier for a grown man to do than a five year old.


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## Ivy (Mar 2, 2009)

loves pretty much just said everything that i thought but couldn't really say. totally and completely..


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 2, 2009)

LoveBHMS, in spirit, I agree with what you're saying (and you're right -- he did ask for input).

I will also say this: My sister divorced the father of her first two children, and it marked them. They've been through years of therapy. They are good kids, and it helps that their stepfather is a decent man who loves them. But there is also a lot of resentment on their part, towards both parents and their step-parents. 

My sister divorced her first husband for good reason. He had some major issues, and he flatly refused to get help. She tried everything. I don't know (nor do I need to know) why the marriages highlighted in this thread ended. Sometimes, people marry and find that they absolutely CANNOT live together. It's tragic when there are children involved, because they will get hurt. That is unavoidable fact.

But it doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense to me, to just tell a parent, "You made 'em, now you put aside your own (very human and understandable) need for love and companionship, because they come first." I agree -- children should come first. I'm just not sure that it would make Haunted a better parent if he sacrificed his own needs entirely. He has some incredibly difficult choices to make. I don't see that he's trying to justify himself here, at all. He's made himself very vulnerable to what he had to know would be dissenting opinions. I think he knew when he was writing this that he'd get feedback like yours (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong).

Haunted, I agree with others who have said that they wouldn't want to be in your shoes. No matter what you decide, someone is going to end up hurt. That's a terrible position to be in. If you do choose to move to California, I don't think that you should castigate yourself. You are going to feel terrible about leaving your daughter. The decision to end your marriage was made a long time ago, and you've all lived through that trauma. Children *are* resilient, and they *do* adjust. I'm not dismissing the difficulty that your daughter is facing, and will face. I know from watching my nephew & niece struggle, how very traumatic a divorce can be ... particularly a bitter, nasty one. But I've also seen them grow, adjust, and learn to live with their new reality. With your help, and your ex's, she will adjust. I fear that it is *you* who will ultimately lose out ... on watching her grow up and become a young woman. In any event, I just wanted to express my own opinion (which, coupled with $5, will buy you a cup of fancy coffee). I see a man who loves his daughter, loves his girlfriend, and wants very much to please everyone. That's not going to happen, no matter what you decide. So make the decision the best one that encompasses what you need from life, too. Does that make you selfish? Sure. We're all selfish. 



LoveBHMS said:


> I'm with Ivy in that this post totally disturbed me.
> 
> Since you asked for honesty, I'm going to give it to you. It sounds as if you're trying to justify abandoning your daughter. Webcams? Seriously? That is not parenting. When you became a parent....when you made the choice to bring another life into the world and be responsible for her, you should have absorbed a certain amount of selflessness.
> 
> ...


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## KaliCurves (Mar 2, 2009)

If it was that simple I would have taken my kids and moved months ago. Just because your a shitty father doesnt mean a court is going to take away your rights as a parent. I have talked to several lawyers about this already, there is no way a California judge will let me take my kids away from there father no matter how shitty he is unless its a physical or sexually abusive relationship. We know this isnt going to be easy for anyone, but we are going to try and make the best of it. 





LoveBHMS said:


> The other thing I realized is that both you and Kali have repeatedly said that her daughters' father is a jerk.
> 
> She's even written open letters calling him their "sperm donor" and posted many times about what a miserable person he is and how badly he treats their kids.
> 
> Unless I've missed something, I don't see why if somebody has to move cross country it should not be her kids. Why can't Kali's ex husband be the one to come cross country to see his daughters? That would be a LOT easier for a grown man to do than a five year old.


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## elle camino (Mar 2, 2009)

i don't really get too into heavy life-type stuff on the internerd, but: my dad took off and moved to another state when i was 6, to marry someone and have kids with her, etc. 
the difference (i HOPE) with him and i was that he did not maintain any kind of contact with me thereafter. like, i haven't heard from the guy since. 
so! 
reading the OP, my take on it is that if you HAVE to move away from your daughter (life happens, and i think when she's older she'll understand), do absolutely everything you can on earth to let her know you love her, you're her daddy, she's in your thoughts and you haven't left her life. 
if my dad had done that, sure i would have resented him a bit when i was younger, but as an adult we'd really have no issues. like honstly in my 20's i've asked myself several times if i had just gotten letters, phone calls, maybe a christmas gift or a birthday card here and there - would i still be where i am now, where i don't even consider myself a person who ever had a father? and really, for me, the honest answer is no. of course cards and gifts and phone calls aren't going to raise a child, but i would have at least felt like i had a dad, and he gave a shit. 
which actually goes quite a long way. 
so yeah, in short: you can leave without abandoning. just make extra-super-ridiculously sure you stay in her life in every way you can, see her as often as you can, all that.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 2, 2009)

elle camino said:


> i don't really get too into heavy life-type stuff on the internerd, but: my dad took off and moved to another state when i was 6, to marry someone and have kids with her, etc.
> the difference (i HOPE) with him and i was that he did not maintain any kind of contact with me thereafter. like, i haven't heard from the guy since.
> so!
> reading the OP, my take on it is that if you HAVE to move away from your daughter (life happens, and i think when she's older she'll understand), do absolutely everything you can on earth to let her know you love her, you're her daddy, she's in your thoughts and you haven't left her life.
> ...




This, x50. I will readily admit that I have no real experience on this issue. I grew up with both parents, and I'm fortunate to have a stable marriage with a mature, reasonable adult. But if I've learned anything from watching the relationship issues unfold with my nephew & niece, it is that you can't overstate (and overshow) just how much you love, cherish, adore your daughter. What she absolutely, unconditionally needs to know is that both parents love her just as she is, and that nothing that has happened (or will happen) is her fault. It's great that you and your ex have a cordial relationship, Haunted. That will help.

I also wonder, based on your comments, Kali: Have you asked your ex about the possibility of moving? I'm going only by the comments you've made in other threads, here. It doesn't seem that you view your ex as being that committed to his children. Perhaps you could negotiate some kind of arrangement. Do you think he may be more agreeable to allowing the children to move if you waived his child support payment obligations? That isn't meant to be a question for you to answer here, Kali. Just food for thought.


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## fffff (Mar 2, 2009)

elle camino said:


> reading the OP, my take on it is that if you HAVE to move away from your daughter (life happens, and i think when she's older she'll understand), do absolutely everything you can on earth to let her know you love her, you're her daddy, she's in your thoughts and you haven't left her life.



She's old enough to realize that he doesn't HAVE to move, he deciding he would rather be in this relationship than be close (physically) to his daughter. I don't think that ever goes away, no matter how old you are. 

Webcams, phone calls, and summer visits are never going to make up for that.


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## elle camino (Mar 2, 2009)

i will add: it's an incredibly high-stakes matter, haunted. like if you don't keep in touch, your daughter WILL grow up feeling abandoned by her dad and it WILL fuck her up beyond what words can describe, in her adult life. you won't necessarily be ruining her life, but you will be creating a fucking litany of heavy-duty issues with trust, men, love, etc - basically everything that matters will be harder for her for decades, because of you. 
trust me when i tell you this. 

so, just be aware of the consequences of fucking up.

edit:


fffff said:


> She's old enough to realize that he doesn't HAVE to move, he deciding he would rather be in this relationship than be close (physically) to his daughter. I don't think that ever goes away, no matter how old you are.


like i said, i agree that in her youth she's going to be resentful of him for moving away. if he decides to move, that part is pretty much unavoidable. 
i'm speaking from the perspective of someone who was in a very similar predicament at his daughter's age, and who's now pushing thirty. at my age now (and for the past few years), i know that (like i said) life just happens, and shit aint always ideal. my dad fell in love with someone (my personal feelings towards her are irrelevant to the thread), and had to move to be with her. I know what being in love is like, now. hell i've moved for boyfriends, and boyfriends have moved (a couple of times across the country) to be with me. i understand that now like i couldn't have ever understood it growing up. 
IF my dad had chosen to do everything he could to stay in my life, like i also said: things would be different now. of course we wouldn't be close, but i also wouldn't hold him responsible for installing the giant mountain of bullshit labeled 'CRAPPY DAD' between me and and a normal life, which i had to waste like 5 years of my 20's climbing over.


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## mossystate (Mar 2, 2009)

The age of the child involved in situations like this is VERY important. While I agree that parents need to be fulfilled in more than one area of their lives, the age of the child should, in part, guide decisions. 

Kids might have to adapt to a parent dying. They might have to adapt to so many things, that are more or less beyond any kind of control. I do get the urge to want to be with the adult you love, I just cringe when I think of a 5 year old kid who has one of the most important parts of their routine...and one of the most important people...ripped from them at that young...young...age. Some kids do ok...some do not. I think it is a hell of a gamble. These next few years are biggies, in terms of development. 


Would you consider doing the long distance thing for a few more years? I know that seems so unfair...but that is what is going to be expected of the little one. I know it's tough when you want what you want, and need...but I do believe that especially for really young kids, yes, it is a parents' job to sacrifice to be there...as close as you can, given the circumstances. A divorce PLUS a cross country move. That is TOO much to ask of a 5 year old.


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## KaliCurves (Mar 2, 2009)

I dont mind talking about it here. He has only paid $400 in 9 months. Yes I have mentioned me waving it, and all I got was laughed at. He is a very evil, and bitter man. He will and has done everything he can to create problems and try and make mine and Haunteds relationship fail.

This man told my children we kidnapped them because we took them to the coast for the weekend!! 

Believe me Haunted is very torn about this, as am I. None of you will ever understand what we go threw thinking about this.






TraciJo67 said:


> This, x50. I will readily admit that I have no real experience on this issue. I grew up with both parents, and I'm fortunate to have a stable marriage with a mature, reasonable adult. But if I've learned anything from watching the relationship issues unfold with my nephew & niece, it is that you can't overstate (and overshow) just how much you love, cherish, adore your daughter. What she absolutely, unconditionally needs to know is that both parents love her just as she is, and that nothing that has happened (or will happen) is her fault. It's great that you and your ex have a cordial relationship, Haunted. That will help.
> 
> I also wonder, based on your comments, Kali: Have you asked your ex about the possibility of moving? I'm going only by the comments you've made in other threads, here. It doesn't seem that you view your ex as being that committed to his children. Perhaps you could negotiate some kind of arrangement. Do you think he may be more agreeable to allowing the children to move if you waived his child support payment obligations? That isn't meant to be a question for you to answer here, Kali. Just food for thought.


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## Haunted (Mar 2, 2009)

I'm not gonna do the whole multi quote here i'm just gonna make a blanket reply.

I do appreciate everyones honesty thank you, 

i wonder elle if your father had been more in contact would you have then resented him for living so far away, and then if he had lived closer would you have resented him for divorcing your mom in the first place etc. we really don't know how or when the resentment will come from if at all. My parents stayed together till i was 18 neither went very far but my entire life my father was emotionally absent, and i have my own resentment toward him. 

on the other end i wonder what kind of parent i could be if i stayed, would i be preoccupied and possibly deeply depressed. and your right bhm i'm probably justifying my desires to be with her. 

I may be a horrible person for wanting to move, lord knows i feel like it sometimes, short of a mob hit i don't know how else to work things out. one thing i may have left out of my OP is that the ultimate goal is for me to adopt her girls and relocate back to the east coast as soon as possible. 

really thank you for the honesty I knew i wasn't going to like reading the responses but i am taking all advice you have all given


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 2, 2009)

> I may be a horrible person for wanting to move, lord knows i feel like it sometimes, short of a mob hit i don't know how else to work things out. one thing i may have left out of my OP is that the ultimate goal is for me to adopt her girls and relocate back to the east coast as soon as possible.



So if we're understanding this correctly, Kali's ex husband is going to do everything possible to make your relationship fail, and several lawyers have told her she can't even move with them. Yet somehow it's a reasonable goal that you're actually going to *adopt* them? The same man who won't allow the girls to move to another state is going to allow you to adopt them and THEN move to the east coast?

Sorry but I don't get it.

The simple and obvious situation is that you are choosing to physically leave your child to move to CA. That is what you want to do. You've been presented with several posssible outcomes by women who have been in your daughter's situation. Nobody is telling you what to do, or can tell you what to do, but at least be real about it. It really doesn't matter what we all think of what you're doing, what matters is what you think of what you're doing and how your child feels.


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## Risible (Mar 3, 2009)

Billy, I have to say, moving cross country from your child is abandoning her. You cannot parent long distance. Webcams, gifts and cards may salve your conscience, but will have little meaning to her.

Allowing her to visit once or twice a year will hardly be spending time with her Dad; instead it will be spending time with Dad ... and his new family, including the replacement daughters (after all, you can't treat them differently than your own, can you? Not without giving them the impression that they are "less than," or don't count as much) and her new alternate mother.

My husband stuck it out in an unhappy marriage for years until his two children reached adulthood. I respect that; I call that doing the right thing by his kids.



Haunted said:


> ...
> 
> on the other end i wonder what kind of parent i could be if i stayed, would i be preoccupied and possibly deeply depressed. and your right bhm i'm probably justifying my desires to be with her...



You are the adult; you made this child - she is your responsibility. You must put her needs before yours, regardless of how you feel.


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## mossystate (Mar 3, 2009)

Haunted said:


> would i be preoccupied and possibly deeply depressed




You might...and then you would look at the baby you chose to bring into the world...hike up your big boy pants...and deal.

Her possible depression is what matters, in the here, and the now.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 3, 2009)

> Believe me Haunted is very torn about this, as am I. None of you will ever understand what we go threw thinking about this.



Wrong. While it's true none of us have actually walked in your shoes, you've gotten responses from daughters who were abandoned for girlfriends, single mothers, and the wife of a man who stayed in a situation that made him personally unhappy but that was right for his children. It's pretty clear that many posters here do understand from a variety of experiences and perspectives.

I suspect in your heart of hearts what you were hoping for was some posts from women who said "Oh yeah....I was parented via webcam but everything went swimmingly." I think you also knew you were not likely to find that.


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## cinnamitch (Mar 3, 2009)

My mother left me at a young age to live with the "man she couldn't live without" Now i can't begin to imagine the distance you will have to deal with with your child because my mother only had to move a little more than 2 hours away. She might as well have moved 2000 miles away. You will never be able to be there all the times your daughter will need you no matter how much you want to be. How do you think she will feel when she hears about the family skate night her future step siblings went on with you and she wasn't there. Maybe some cute photos of you and your new brood shopping for Halloween costumes or Christmas decorations. How about the times she just wants daddy? No matter how much you want it to be perfect it isn't going to be and she will be hurt. The big question will be how will it pan out in the end? I grew up resenting my mother for not being around in my life more, for putting someone else and their kids ahead of me, and for not being able to fit into a FAMILY, like "normal" kids anymore. I understand your gf's problem with her ex but i just want you both to ask yourself this. If the only way for you two to be together would be for her to move to you , forcing her to leave her children behind, could she even consider it? If the answer is no, then why would you consider it either? Nonetheless, i do wish you both a lot of luck and happiness and hope it works out for the best. All any of us can do is give opinions, but in the end it will be you two who will have to decide the future of so many parties involved.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 3, 2009)

Risible said:


> My husband stuck it out in an unhappy marriage for years until his two children reached adulthood. I respect that; I call that doing the right thing by his kids.
> 
> You are the adult; you made this child - she is your responsibility. You must put her needs before yours, regardless of how you feel.



Just a bit of a different perspective. My parents stayed together (well, factually they divorced and remarried each other 3 times, but they were essentially with each other for most of my childhood). They were two people who should never have married. Hell, they shouldn't have been friends. They were complete opposites in every meaningful way. There was 28 years age difference between them. The only things that they actually had in common were that both had come from deeply troubled and abusive backgrounds themselves. These traits didn't make for a good marriage. 

I remember the first time that my parents separated. I was 8 years old. I was terrified. I was also relieved. They separated again when I was 11. That time, it was just simple relief. The third time (when I was 17), it didn't even register on my trauma-drama radar. I was just thrilled that in a few months, I'd be off to college and could ditch the 'family' life for good. 

There's nothing particularly noble, in many cases, about staying in a miserable relationship. Ris, I'm not speaking to or about your husband, here. Just sharing another perspective. It takes an extraordinary measure of near-heroic restraint for two fundamentally miserable people to maintain a convincingly cordial relationship with each other. Most of us cannot maintain that. Having children doesn't cure that desire to have a personally fulfilling life. Deeply unhappy people aren't good at masking their feelings, and children are intuitive sponges, anyway. They sense things, and they absorb lessons that we never meant to teach them, because at a very young age they can pull a different message from our actions vs. the lip service. I'm not sure that I'd want my son to be "taught" that it's OK to sacrifice myself for someone else, even if that someone were him. If his father and I ever reached that point of desperate unhappiness, I definitely wouldn't want him to grow up thinking that the very moment he has children, he subjugates every possible need that he may ever have for the good of those children. And the message that I took from my parents' lousy marriage was one that took me many years to overcome, because that *is* how I grew up: Thinking that it was natural, and right, that my own desires take a backseat to pretty much EVERYONE else's. I have three siblings who simply NEVER overcame the dysfunction or moved beyond it. Two have spent lives in an out of jail. One died.

I think that rather than asking Haunted to haul himself up on a cross and find a way to pound the nails in, the reality of the situation should be acknowledged. They did separate, and ultimately divorced. His little girl's life has already changed dramatically. She's already gone through the trauma of having 1/2 of her "world" removed from her day-to-day life. It's unrealistic to expect a 5-year-old to understand that the next step in that process is going to be that her father remarries, takes on 3 stepchildren, and now ... instead of seeing her every weekend, it's once or maybe twice a year. She won't understand that now. Hopefully, as she gets older, and if Haunted does stay in frequent contact with her and does everything he possibly can to keep her an active part of his life, she will grow to understand. That's the most that he can hope for, I think, given the particular hand that has been dealt to him (whether or not he dealt them). I think it is too much to ask -- of himself, as he owes nothing to us -- to give up his own happiness so that everything can remain the same for his little girl. Things have already changed. She's already learned that she can't fully rely on the adults in her life. And overall, as grievious of a thing as that is, maybe it's not the worst thing that a child can learn. Given the high rate of divorce in this country, and that pretty much EVERYONE I know has a sob story to tell, myself included ... we're all pretty much doomed, if the horrific predictions cast in this thread come true.

Haunted/Kali, a concern that I have is whether or not the two of you are being realistic about how your children are going to adjust, and how difficult *they* may make it for you to have a shot at making your relationship work. There will be resentment. They probably will not accept any kind of parental overture from the step-parent, and there is no way of guaranteeing that they will accept each other, either. If Haunted does move to California, his daughter will likely grow up with deeply resentful feelings towards you and your daughters, Kali. She will feel that you stole him away. She can't be expected to be reasonable and to frame the situation in any sort of perspective; the only one that she'll be able to understand is her own. And if your husband is that bitter and angry, I'm wondering about how realistic it is for Haunted to even think about adopting your children. I also wonder if your feelings for your ex are seeping through to your children. If so, they will very likely grow to resent you for pointing out his shortcomings. Children need to believe, for as long as humanely possible, that their parents are good, decent people. My sister's ex has many ... issues. They are huge. I'll leave it at that. But as far as his children know, he's a good man who loves them, and their parents just couldn't be happy together. My sister made sure that this is the *only* thing they ever knew about their father. I will always respect her for that, because I know how hard it has been for her to keep her silence.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 3, 2009)

> I also wonder if your feelings for your ex are seeping through to your children. If so, they will very likely grow to resent you for pointing out his shortcomings. Children need to believe, for as long as humanely possible, that their parents are good, decent people.



Just to offer another perspective, my mother tried this. It did not work because it was so clear when my dad was being a jerk. For many years she flat out refused to say anything bad about him because she thought it was the right thing to do, but eventually I was like 'Mom, stop defending him. I can see what he is." It may be the same with Kali's daughters if the man is seriously awful to the point of telling them they were 'kidnapped' when they just went on a vacation.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 3, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Just to offer another perspective, my mother tried this. It did not work because it was so clear when my dad was being a jerk. For many years she flat out refused to say anything bad about him because she thought it was the right thing to do, but eventually I was like 'Mom, stop defending him. I can see what he is." It may be the same with Kali's daughters if the man is seriously awful to the point of telling them they were 'kidnapped' when they just went on a vacation.



I agree with you, LBHMS. But I think that it is best for children to discover this on their own, without negative input from the other parent. There is a difference between defending indefensible behaviors and choosing not to highlight the bad. My nephew is now 17, my niece is 13. They are old enough to see things for themselves now, and have been for some time. I think that if my sister had done the job for them, they may have ended up resenting her. We never discussed why she held back with them, but since we grew up together, I think I already know. We knew from our own experience how much we resented our mother for constantly, bitterly, pointing out our father's shortcomings to us.


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## Weeze (Mar 3, 2009)

I know what others have said, but here are MY thoughts.
My parents are in a (mostly) loving, happy marriage.
The thing is, that when I was little, my dad used to go away on business a LOT, and he still does. My point is, when I was younger, I cried when my daddy was gone for a WEEK. I have no idea what would have happened if he'd just up and left and I wouldn't be able to see him for MONTHS. 
It would be a different situation if you hadn't been in your daughters life from the start, but, you were. You can't just rip yourself away from her like that. It. Is. Not. Fair. 
I'm not attacking anything, I'm just saying. Also, Kali mentioned something about webcaming? My dad was in China during my senior prom, and let my tell you. Skype is NOT the same thing as having him there. Her first break up? Daddy's not gonna be there with a bowl of ice cream and a hug. 

Whatever you do, Haunted, Good luck. You seem like a nice guy, and I hope for the best for you.


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## FatAndProud (Mar 3, 2009)

moving away from children always looks bad in the courts' eyes...so if you ever wanted like 50/50 or anything you probably, definitely wouldn't get it.

stuff like this is tough. my friend is going through a divorce and Michigan courts are notoriously hard on men...and my friend is the guy and he's trying his damndest to get 50/50 custody because he believes he doesn't see his boys enough. and if you moved away? omg


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## SamanthaNY (Mar 3, 2009)

I don't have children, and I can't begin to imagine how difficult this situation must be for all involved. 

I do know two things, though. One is that parenting involves sacrifice. It has to. Adults have to make sacrifices so that kids have the best shot possible at a good life. The parents sacrifice so that the child's needs are met first. The second thing I know is that your decision - whatever it is - will impact you for years to come... but it will impact your child for the rest of her life.

With those two things in mind, I'm sure there are other factors which impact your decision. But are there any more important? Only you and those closest to you will know that answer. 

Imagine your daughter on a message board in 10-15 years, talking about the choices her parents made. What would she say?

I wish you all peace with whatever you decide.


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## fatgirlflyin (Mar 3, 2009)

Risible said:


> My husband stuck it out in an unhappy marriage for years until his two children reached adulthood. I respect that; I call that doing the right thing by his kids.



Already shared my opinions, but this struck me. Aren't we as parents also responsible for teaching our children what a healthy relationship is? I left my kids father (and moved across the country) because he was abusive. Mentally and physically abusive and I didn't want my son growing up thinking that men were supposed to treat women that way. 

So I dont agree that being miserable is necessarily the best thing to do for our children.


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## Haunted (Mar 3, 2009)

I don't know why but BHMS's responses seem to be the harshest i understand you feel strongly. But reading your post's seems to cut deeper than others, and for your information i did not expect anyone to "prop" me up by posting this i really wanted honest opinions. i am stuggling with this issue and i didn't want to be justifying my actions. if i do move it won't be for another year or more. and within that time anything is possible. 

and the argument about the "Replacement Family" that's an issue no matter which of us relocates. or even if we don't end up together. the separation is done i will end up with someone else or My ex will end up with someone else. and since i am and will always be the part time parent no matter how hard i try or how close i stay there will always be that stigma and guilt. 

i honestly don't know how this will move forward.


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## Tooz (Mar 3, 2009)

I read the OP.

I grew up in Massachusetts (we pretty much had to relocate there, staying in Buffalo was not an option), with my father residing in Buffalo, where I was born.

Several times a year, my mom would take me out there (8-10 hours one way, depending on traffic). It was hard for all, and I had no friends in Buffalo, so I spent time with my dad, half brother and sister ONLY. It was difficult.

I assume you got into this relationship KNOWING she was in California with children and you were in New Hampshire with children. It is a very difficult situation, but I can say from my childhood experience that you REALLY NEED TO MAKE YOUR CHILD YOUR FIRST PRIORITY. SERIOUSLY. There can be no question. You need to be there for the child. It does not matter what it will cost you and your love life.


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## Sugar (Mar 3, 2009)

Something that I haven't seen mentioned that really bothers me about this whole situation...we've all read about your gf's take on her ex and how evil he is in her eyes.

You really want your daughter to be thrown into a situation where there is some super bad energy going around? It may only be for a week or a summer, but to think that she'd be guarded since he's your gf's ex is naive. Her ex may very well be the scum of the earth, but he's not going anywhere since they decided to get cozy not once but 3 times. 

I'm not saying give up on the love you have for your gf, but really have some perspective. Kali has shared very private things with strangers on the board, is she going to be able to keep totally mum about these issues with this man in the privacy of her life in front of all the kids (yours included)? You can't always shield your kids but you can give some cushion. This proposed move isn't going to allow for any cushion for your daughter regardless of which coast she's on.

Also there is a WORLD of difference between dating someone locally that may have kids and packing your junk to move across the country. Blending a family locally where all the kids have time together on a set schedule is easier (not easy, but easier) than throwing a little girl into a life that isn't her's one summer or one holiday (see above).

It just seems to me that as much as you are looking for honest opinions you really really want someone to tell you it'll be OK to go. Dude, it is not OK. 

I would never negate the love you can feel for your gf (I too am in a cross country LDR), but at a point your daughter has to come first. She didn't ask for parents that got divorced. She didn't ask for you to peruse the internet and fall in love with someone clear across the country. She surely didn't ask to be part of a "blended" family. Maybe this time it'd be OK to think about what she would ask for?


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## Sandie S-R (Mar 3, 2009)

Haunted,

Anything is doable with enough love and care involved. 

Get you and your daughter good computers with a web cam. Make a plan to chat every evening for 30 minutes. She can tell you about her day, you can give help with homework, and talk about anything that needs to be dealt with. Plus you can see each other and still fell very connected. See that she has a cell phone and access to call you anytime she needs to.

You just plan to have her visit as much as possible. Southwest has fairly good airfare to CA.

These are all the things that I've done with my grandson - when his Mom (my daughter) moved from California to Ohio. I talk to him almost every day, and I bought him the web cam for Christmas. He spends his summers with me. 

You can still be an active part of your daughter's life - and thank goodness for all the modern technology that helps that happen. 

Hang in there. What is important is that your daughter knows you love her, and that she feels she has access to you when she needs you. That you can do.


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## Risible (Mar 3, 2009)

Ella Bella said:


> Already shared my opinions, but this struck me. Aren't we as parents also responsible for teaching our children what a healthy relationship is? I left my kids father (and moved across the country) because he was abusive. Mentally and physically abusive and I didn't want my son growing up thinking that men were supposed to treat women that way.
> 
> So I dont agree that being miserable is necessarily the best thing to do for our children.



Just to clarify, I presented his situation in black and white terms; there are, of course, shades of gray. In his case, he made the best of what was to him a unhappy situation for the sake of the kids, was agreeable to his ex-wife and as loving as possible. I agree with you and TraciJo in that a marriage where abuse occurs is not a healthy environment to raise kids, and that "marriage for the sake of the kids" is not always the optimal choice.


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## LisaInNC (Mar 3, 2009)

Ok, I have given this a lot of thought and it pains me greatly to say, I agree with LoveBHMs. To move away from unconditional love to be with someone you may not even make it with (yes I know you are both head over heels NOW), seems absurd. I know it would make me feel I was not as important and I would probably resent the hell out of my stepmother. I see no one is suggesting she abandoned her children to be with you. Why is this? Can she give up her children for love? If not, then why is it fair to have you do so? 
Regardless of what is said here on the boards, your mind is made up. You are leaving your precious child with the notion that she can live without you. The truth is, there are a lot of things a girl needs from her father. One of them is to show her that some men are not scumbags. You leaving her will only make her future relationships suck. She will think its ok for men to leave their children behind for the sake of their own happiness. She will not know that men dont leave, because you are living proof that they do.
I know I am wasting my energy typing all of this, because like I said, your mind is made up. You already know what you are going to do. You came here in hopes that someone would validate your reasons for abandoning your child. I am sure you are leaving here sadly disappointed.


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## fatgirlflyin (Mar 3, 2009)

Risible said:


> Just to clarify, I presented his situation in black and white terms; there are, of course, shades of gray. In his case, he made the best of what was to him a unhappy situation for the sake of the kids, was agreeable to his ex-wife and as loving as possible. I agree with you and TraciJo in that a marriage where abuse occurs is not a healthy environment to raise kids, and that "marriage for the sake of the kids" is not always the optimal choice.



Oh yeah I know  I just wanted to put the other side out there. 

There are days even today that I beat myself up for walking away from the relationship, for taking my kids away from their father.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 3, 2009)

LisaInNC said:


> *The truth is, there are a lot of things a girl needs from her father. One of them is to show her that some men are not scumbags. You leaving her will only make her future relationships suck. She will think its ok for men to leave their children behind for the sake of their own happiness. She will not know that men dont leave, because you are living proof that they do.*



Quoted a thousand times for truth.

A situation with a grandchild is completely different from a father and daughter. Grandsons do not depend on their grandmothers to learn self esteem, self worth, and how to relate to the opposite sex. As wonderful as grandparents are, nobody on this board has posted about how living apart from a grandmother has impacted her self esteem and relationships with men into adulthood, yet numerous women (Ivy, Elle, myself, Cinnamitch) have posted true and honest accounts of what happens to girls whose parents leave them.

Haunted, you say you're not looking to be propped up, yet it's clear from so many responses that that is what many people read in your OP. 

Most tellingly, you've written extensively about your relationship with Kali which has included webcams, texts, phone calls, and visits. You've made it clear that that is just not enough for you---you need to be with her. A relationship via modern technology isn't good enough for your girlfriend so whyever would you think that it's going to be good enough for your daughter as far as having a dad?


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## Sugar (Mar 3, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Most tellingly, you've written extensively about your relationship with Kali which has included webcams, texts, phone calls, and visits. You've made it clear that that is just not enough for you---you need to be with her. *A relationship via modern technology isn't good enough for your girlfriend so whyever would you think that it's going to be good enough for your daughter as far as having a dad?*



I couldn't agree more.


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## fffff (Mar 3, 2009)

Lucky said:


> I couldn't agree more.



Third. 
Bold, uppercased, and in italics. 
*A WEBCAM IS A PATHETIC SUBSTITUTE FOR A FATHER*


I am so disgusted with this topic. I know men leave their daughters all the time but to read through someone trying to rationalize it is beyond my comprehension. 

Personally, I would never even consider being in a relationship with a man who would abandon his child and move across the country when she was _five years old,_ so no, in a lot of ways I'm never going to understand.


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## Haunted (Mar 3, 2009)

I didn't expect to get any positive feed back. i needed to be able to see what i couldn't see, and i see a much clearer picture now. but most of you have me painted as an asshole who's already left! there is no definite plan there is no timeline


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## Tina (Mar 3, 2009)

KaliCurves said:


> If it was that simple I would have taken my kids and moved months ago. Just because your a shitty father doesnt mean a court is going to take away your rights as a parent. I have talked to several lawyers about this already, there is no way a California judge will let me take my kids away from there father no matter how shitty he is unless its a physical or sexually abusive relationship. We know this isnt going to be easy for anyone, but we are going to try and make the best of it.



No way will I get involved in this, but I will say that a California judge will, and has, let the custodial parent move to another state with the children. It's possible, I know this for a fact that it can be done.


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## fffff (Mar 3, 2009)

Haunted said:


> Is this really necessary I came here looking for constructive criticism not mud slinging
> 
> I didn't expect to get any positive feed back. i needed to be able to see what i couldn't see, and i see a much clearer picture now. but most of you have me painted as an asshole who's already left! there is no definite plan there is no timeline



I really hope for your daughter's sake that you figure something out with her best interests in mind. But you need to know the kind of hostility abandoned girls harbor.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 3, 2009)

Haunted said:


> People do this all the time don't they? i mean fathers and daughters do survive long distance's right?. And wouldn't it be great for her to be able to spend her summers in California or winter break.





Haunted said:


> I didn't expect to get any positive feed back. i needed to be able to see what i couldn't see, and i see a much clearer picture now. but most of you have me painted as an asshole who's already left! there is no definite plan there is no timeline




Hi ya Haunted  

I'm not angered by anything you wrote here......and I don't think you're being particularly selfish. I think you have spent a lot of time thinking about this....and even "went public"...not to "get permission" but to see if you missed something. You did......and it's been brought to you attention. 

It seems important to let you know who/what I am talking to you as:

A girl that "lost" her father at age five. He lived three states away from me from that age until he died back in 2006. My mother left him....he couldn't leave his good job in Jersey. 
I felt "left" by my Dad but put a lot of the "blame" for not seeing him on my mom. Yeah, I'm 40 years old and still work through those feeling....those feelings that first came to be in my mind when I was five. I'm grown now....can look back with my adult eyes/mind....but still feel that pang. Your daughter.....she might do this, too. 

I can see some other ladies that "lost their father" have already posted...and it's obvious they still carry a lot of the past feelings inside them. You wanted/needed truth....it's here. Take from it what you will.

You choosing to leave......is different than my Mom "taking me away from" my Dad. Your daughter will digest that thought......no matter how good a relationship you try to garner. 

I read the more "positive" posts and really liked them....I wanted to be able to come into this thread and encourage you. But "The Truth" of what your girl might think/feel down the road is still important....and should be part of your decision making. I think you have been thinking of her this whole time.....just might not realize how heavy of an impact your presence as Daddy has on her life. You are her male example...everything you do will set some type of unspoken...perhaps even unrecognized, standard in her life. You are THAT IMPORTANT. 







Ella Bella said:


> She will get over having to leave her friends behind for a few weeks out of the year, they will still be there when she gets back. You can be a perfectly fine father without living in the same town as your child. You already said you talk to her every night, make sure that behavior continues. Maybe you and your ex can strike up some kind of a deal where you each pay for one round trip ticket per month so that your daughter can come visit you. While it wont be every weekend it would be every other. I also think its important that if/when she did come to visit that you set up some alone time with her, 3 step sisters or no she's gonna want Daddy time without the new siblings being in the way.
> 
> California isn't a cheap place to live. I wish you luck.



I like your strong and encouraging post because....it's positive and shows that "life goes on". You know, you are correct. His girl will grow up and might be just fine. He has said there is an amicable relationship with the ex...that seems like a definite plus. 



LoveBHMS said:


> *I will never heal from the feeling of being made to feel unimportant and always second class in my father's eyes.*



The points made about her feeling like a second choice........that could be a very real truth. 



LoveBHMS said:


> Your daughter is FIVE. You can't seriously believe that she's going to be hopping cross country every other weekend. You don't stick a five year old on the f**king redeye twice a month. As the nearest ADULT how easy that is. And what about when she wants to go to sleepover parties or take music lessons on weekends or gets sick? It's just not realistic to think she's going to be able to visit that often.



I concur- she is too young for the traveling long distance. Sounds more likely and doable if you would make plans to go and see her....by yourself...often. My dad did this.....like clockwork. He never missed a visit for anything. He always sent gifts on Xmas and birthdays. He took lots of pictures when we saw him. I remember that effort...now as a grown woman looking back. He never missed a child support payment. 
One part of my mind says.......he got off easy...the other part still remembers the effort......







elle camino said:


> i don't really get too into heavy life-type stuff on the internerd, but: my dad took off and moved to another state when i was 6, to marry someone and have kids with her, etc.
> the difference (i HOPE) with him and i was that he did not maintain any kind of contact with me thereafter. like, i haven't heard from the guy since.
> so!
> reading the OP, my take on it is that if you HAVE to move away from your daughter (life happens, and i think when she's older she'll understand), do absolutely everything you can on earth to let her know you love her, you're her daddy, she's in your thoughts and you haven't left her life.
> ...



I agree with Elle...but then know that the mind of a five year old is not going to be "reasonable"...no matter what you do or say. Keep that in mind, as well....



mossystate said:


> The age of the child involved in situations like this is VERY important. While I agree that parents need to be fulfilled in more than one area of their lives, the age of the child should, in part, guide decisions.
> 
> young...young...age. Some kids do ok...some do not. I think it is a hell of a gamble. These next few years are biggies, in terms of development.
> 
> ...




Monique made some very good points here... you know. 



TraciJo67 said:


> I agree with you, LBHMS. *But I think that it is best for children to discover this on their own, without negative input from the other parent. There is a difference between defending indefensible behaviors and choosing not to highlight the bad. *My nephew is now 17, my niece is 13. They are old enough to see things for themselves now, and have been for some time. I think that if my sister had done the job for them, they may have ended up resenting her. We never discussed why she held back with them, but since we grew up together, I think I already know. We knew from our own experience how much we resented our mother for constantly, bitterly, pointing out our father's shortcomings to us.



My Mom spent a lot of time putting my Dad down...and constantly put us down by saying "You're just like your father"...that guy she hated...said so more than once. 
He said some not so nice things about her, too. However, we lived with her.....



Ella Bella said:


> Already shared my opinions, but this struck me. Aren't we as parents also responsible for teaching our children what a healthy relationship is? I left my kids father (and moved across the country) because he was abusive. Mentally and physically abusive and I didn't want my son growing up thinking that men were supposed to treat women that way.
> 
> So I dont agree that being miserable is necessarily the best thing to do for our children.



The divorced parent part of me is grooving with Ella. A happier home is much more important than "married at all costs". 

As some others said, I would hate to be in your position. I can also honestly say, though, that I won't leave my daughters. I don't live your life or even know you really....so I'm not judging....I just couldn't do it. But then again, I don't have "the one" living on the other side of the continent from me either....

The most important thing I want to say, though, is this:
I was abused and hurt a lot as a child. I had no father available to protect me. Sometimes, I think my life would have been much different if my Dad had been closer/more easily accessible. 
Your daughter, even if you spend much time keeping up contact and visitation, will still be growing up without a Dad to protect her....and people know who doesn't have a Dad. That's all I will say about it......

The idea of you waiting, going to visit your girl often.....or Kali moving to be closer to you sound like good ideas to me. But that's just my two cents. Good luck in whatever you decide and I wish you all happiness at the end of the day. I'm hoping my input has some value to you.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 3, 2009)

fffff said:


> I really hope for your daughter's sake that you figure something out with her best interests in mind. But you need to know the kind of hostility abandoned girls harbor.



Hostility and pain. The day you realize that you're not even good enough for your own father to stick around is the day you know that you're not good enough for any man to ever love you. A parent's love is supposed to be unconditional, a parent should be like the one person who loves you even if nobody else does. A parent is the ONE person you should never have to worry about; a spouse can cheat, a friend can backstab you, a sibling can be a jerk, but you should always be able to count on your dad. When you can't, even as a young child it feels wrong. You know it's wrong, you know it's not how it _should be._ You expect unconditional love, you deserve it from a parent and when it's not there it scars your heart forever.


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## mossystate (Mar 3, 2009)

I think that there are 3 little ones on the other side is going to be one of the biggest pains your daughter will have to process. As others have said, she will only see that they get HER daddy. 

If this goes as planned and it then does not work out between the two of you, Haunted, you might come back to your daughter and she might be just old enough to make some of her own tough decisions....and cut you out of her life, except for maybe wanting to see you a couple of times a year. You will have to respect that...I mean, what else could you do.

Even though you say nothing has been decided...that you have thought it out and you think it is reasonable, if not optimal...that is telling me you don't have your daughters' best interest in mind. I think we all get the ramped up drive of wanting to be with your honey. Most of us just first see your little one.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 3, 2009)

mossystate said:


> I think that there are 3 little ones on the other side is going to be one of the biggest pains your daughter will have to process. As others have said, she will only see that they get HER daddy.



This is so true. I still have this very vivid memory from when I was around nine or ten. My father's then girlfriend and him went on vacation to Bermuda. Her daughter went to a private school and it was her school break so she got to go with them. She talked excitedly about the trip, and I remember asking my dad why she got to go and I didn't and he said "Well, because you were in school." Nobody could explain to me why the trip could not have been planned for when I was on school break, but to me the obvious reason was that my dad chose keeping his girlfriend's kid happy over keeping me happy.


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## butch (Mar 4, 2009)

This may be a tangent, but let me just say that one can grow up with the same exact issues mentioned in this thread when their father doesn't leave their mother and their kids. I love my dad very much, but both he and my mother did a lot to make sure that I couldn't form the kind of relationships that lead to marriage and/or commitment. 

I've given up my anger at them for this, but I haven't yet fixed the issues that have kept me essentially alone for my entire adult life. Yet, many of my dearest friends have horrific fathers, or merely just absent fathers, and have created loving, strong, and lasting relationships with men. I guess temperament may explain the difference, but otherwise I don't know, and so I offer up my own experiences to say that most daughter/father relationships I know of have been complicated, to say the least. 

There are no easy answers here, Haunted, and I hope things work out for the best for everyone involved in your decision process.


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## mossystate (Mar 4, 2009)

Butch, just speaking for myself, I agree that an ' intact ' family guarantees.....nothing. However, why toss that coin any more than it has been tossed, or has to be tossed.

A divorce is sometimes the best decision for all involved. A situation like this has no way of being the best decision for all involved. Young kids who already have a divorce under their Garanimals belt...they deserve a breather.

5 years old.

5.


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## butch (Mar 4, 2009)

mossystate said:


> Butch, just speaking for myself, I agree that an ' intact ' family guarantees.....nothing. However, why toss that coin any more than it has been tossed, or has to be tossed.
> 
> A divorce is sometimes the best decision for all involved. A situation like this has no way of being the best decision for all involved. Young kids who already have a divorce under their Garanimals belt...they deserve a breather.
> 
> ...



I'm not making a claim as to the particular situation, as I have zero real life knowledge of use here. Just pointing out that good parents, in the best of intentions, can fuck up their kids. Sometimes I think the Freudians are right, it really is all our parents fault (I kid, I kid .


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## Surlysomething (Mar 4, 2009)

Lucky said:


> I couldn't agree more.




me either.

great point.


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## FatAndProud (Mar 4, 2009)

All you gotta do is listen to this song....Listen to the lyrics.


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## sugar and spice (Mar 4, 2009)

Haunted, I met my husband here on Dims too and we were in a long distance relationship for awhile, he was in Ohio I was in Virginia. He was divorced for two years when we met, with two young kids that were 6 and 9 at the time. We had a long distance relationship for over a year and when the decision had to be made of who should move I decided it should be me because I didn't want to make him have to be a long distance Father. Similar to your situation his kids lived with their Mom so he saw them on weekends and holidays but he still felt like he was missing out on their day to day life as a Dad. My husband was a kid from divorced parents, and kind of grew up in a Brady Bunch blended family his step Father adopted him and he has Step siblings and half siblings, but I see that even now as an adult he still carries scars from his parents divorce and he feels that his biological Dad wasn't in his life very much. All this really made him feel guilty when he then had to divorce his kids Mother. His time with his kids was very important to him and he tried his best to be in their lives.
At some point his ex-wife moved to another part of the state that is a couple of hours away when she found love and now my husband doesn't even get to see the kids on weekends just a weekend every other month or so and some time during the holidays. I am just offering this up as a perspective from someone who has seen what he goes through being separated from his kids from the Dad's point of view. You seem to be a loving Dad just like my husband is and the bottom line is, being apart from your kids whether it is across town or across the country hurts. As much as you may want to think you can find ways to make it work, and you will, it won't be without a lot of pain on your part too. I'm sorry I wish I could offer a better prediction but it doesn't mean you should give up on being with Kali it just means no alternative at this point will be stress or pain free so just be as sensitive to your daughters needs as you can and follow your heart where she is concerned. I wish you the best.-Fran


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## SparklingBBW (Mar 4, 2009)

Divorce is a whole separate issue, and insofar as you and your ex are concerned, it's a done deal. Fuggettaboudit. 

You moving across the country, that is the sticking point. It would harm your daughter now, no way around it. The big brain trust that is the scientific world has done numerous studies that say that our youngest years are most important...those leading up to age 6/7 define WHO we are as people. As adults, we are the same core person as we were at age 7, the only difference is now we know more "things". Face facts, you moving away will change the core of who your daughter is, and in her core the truth will be, "I'm not even good enough for my father to want to be with me." 

Also, you and Kelli need to get your heads outta the clouds that is your "love". You've maybe been together a year? Since you both have a clear history (two divorces between you) of not picking suitable life partners, you would be ill advised to think you know or love each other well enough to make a move 3,000 miles away and destroy your daughters self-esteem. I don't mean to be critical, but look back, how quickly did you two get into your previous marriages? Maybe taking extra time before jumping in feet first would benefit your current relationship. I'm not saying your love with Kelli isn't real, but if it is truly real, then you can wait until the ENTIRE situation for all children involved is truly the right time to live together. 

In your enamoured state you might think that that time frame is impossibly long, but really, that's yer gonads talking. 

My best friend started dating someone when her daughter was 3 years old, and she went into the relationship saying, I have my daughter one-half of the time (she coparents) and no matter what happens, I will be living here in Columbus until she is off to college. She's still dating that person (they are partnered up, in a committed relationship), 4+ years later, and they are making it work long distance wise. My friend was uncompromising in her dedication and selflessness as a parent, and her daughter is reaping the benefits and her relationship has not really suffered much. It isn't easy, but it can work. 

Circumstances change, life goes on through job changes, relationship changes, medical issues, legalities, etc., but when it comes down to it, you need to be near your daughter. You are the only father she will ever have. Get your head outta the clouds. 

.


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## fatgirlflyin (Mar 4, 2009)

Genarose54 said:


> Also, you and Kelli need to get your heads outta the clouds that is your "love". You've maybe been together a year? Since you both have a clear history (two divorces between you) of not picking suitable life partners, you would be ill advised to think you know or love each other well enough to make a move 3,000 miles away and destroy your daughters self-esteem. I don't mean to be critical, but look back, how quickly did you two get into your previous marriages? .



Isn't that a little harsh? A failed marriage doesn't make someone uncapable of choosing a suitable partner. Things happen, marriages fail. That's just life sometimes.


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## SparklingBBW (Mar 4, 2009)

Ella Bella said:


> Isn't that a little harsh? A failed marriage doesn't make someone uncapable of choosing a suitable partner. Things happen, marriages fail. That's just life sometimes.




I would agree that it sounded harsh, but I never said they were incapable of choosing suitable partners, just that a year is hardly enough time to base a decision on something that has such far-reaching and un-doable consequences. My other point was that they had their heads in the clouds about their romance, and I was trying to bring them back to reality with the choice of my words. A verbal, "Wake up and pay attention!" 

Remember too, he asked for our opinions. 

.


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## largenlovely (Mar 5, 2009)

I know it has probably been said to death, and i only read the first page, but i'm gonna reiterate..your child won't understand and will wind up feeling abandoned. 

My sister's hubby is from Indiana, where my dad's family is from. The bro in law was friends with my cousin when they met and it was love at first sight blah blah lol. Anyway, my brother in law was living in a small town, no car, no job, sleeping on his mother's couch and had a daughter that his mother paid child support for. At the time, he was pretty much a deadbeat. 

My sister brought him down here, grew him up, my dad got him a good job, a car and their own place...eventually they got 2 cars, a nice home, 2 more kids..and have built a life and a home down here. Anyway, the move down here was fabulous for my brother in law, but not so much for his daughter who was left in Indiana.

She's 13 now and pretty much resents my sister, her half brother and sisters and her dad. She comes down for the summer and we always try to have lots of fun planned for her, but she just wants to be miserable. I know, 13 yr olds are miserable anyway, but..she just really has a problem with him leaving to come down here and make a life and build a new family. She's a good girl, really she is, we all really like her and treat her like she's our own family, but she just wants to hate it down here. We've all even brought up to her that maybe she could move down here, which is a no-go on her part. Maaaaaaaaaaybe when she's older she'll understand..but will she be able to get over an entire childhood of resentment and losing her daddy? I doubt it.

edit/add To also add to what Ivy said, my brother in laws daughter feels the same way about summers vacation away from home. When she comes down here, she misses her mom, her friends, her other siblings, cheerleading camp WITH her friends and all sorts of other activities that get planned for the summer. I really feel for the girl..i do..after the last visit, my brother in law pretty much told her that she didn't have to come back if she didn't want to. He's made a lot of efforts..i think he's just gotten frustrated and unsure of what to do from now on.


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## largenlovely (Mar 5, 2009)

ok now i've read through most of the posts lol

I would also like to add my thoughts in response to whether or not it's better to have both parents around, or to divorce ....

My parents have been married for 35 years and there were times that i begged..beeeeeeeeegged my dad to leave my mom. I won't go into details in this thread, i've already discussed it in other places, but it was a very bad situation at times. Dad said for a long time that he wanted to stay until all of us were grown, because his father left him at a young age never to be a part of his life again and he didn't want us to feel that way. I have a good daddy <3 anyway..

Me and my sister have talked about this as adults and asked ourselves if we would have really rather they split up. Would we have rather lived without all the pain and heartache that went on in our home for years..and the answer was that we were glad that we had both parents around, regardless of the difficulties. The idea of the family splitting apart in reality was scarrier than any other hardships we faced as a whole family. I also think it taught us a bunch of things that were really important.

We're all grown now, and my dad still sticks with my mother (which she's better now thank you medication lol)..but..he lied lol, He loves her and that's why he's stayed all these years...I'm sure he also wanted to make sure we never felt abandoned like he did, but ...he does love her and he loves us and i think we had no choice but to see that all these years. 

Now, i'm gonna go tell my dad how much i love him and appreciate him.


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## chocolate desire (Mar 5, 2009)

Ok if I may I want to put a spin on this.Almost everyone knows I have 6 kids but what everyone dont know is that at one point and time I was homeless when my kids were young. I was buyinga home when my youngest childs father and I broke up( my kids have 3 dads) and on a single income with six kids I could not keep up the payments.My family is very religoius and because in my early teens they was very much against me comming home but they did take my kids in. For 3 years I was from here and there until I was able to get myself together. All during that time I kept in contact with my kids and as soon as I was able to get myself together I moved back to my hometown got all my kids back and we made it work.
My only problem is that right now all my kids are grown except two but they are very clingy just ask my mate Mr Wylde(he always calls me a mother hen).
We have a great relationship there is no resentment and all my kids are part of my everyday life to this day.

Another side is my best friend had to leave his two young kids behind(4 and 2) in order to go to school because he could not find work, For 2 months i seen him break down at the thought of his sons thinking he had just up and left them. he has now been in Fl for 3 months I see the boys every now and again and they seem happy and look forward to his daily phone calls and his visit home for spring break.
Also my guy Mr Wylde might want to comment a little later on his thoughts as he wont be leaving a child but a grandchild that he has been a major part of his life for the past two or three years when he moves here to the states to be with me.
Dont give up only you know the relationship you and your daughter have and how you can make it work. As the saying goes where there is a will there is a way.


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## fat hiker (Mar 5, 2009)

Ella Bella said:


> Isn't that a little harsh? A failed marriage doesn't make someone uncapable of choosing a suitable partner. Things happen, marriages fail. That's just life sometimes.



Well put. And as to the long distance fathering bit - and the 'child leaving their friends behind to be with Dad - I know some kids and parents who have coped with this admirably. The trick is, to have the 'travelling child' come for long enough to make friends in both places - when your daughter comes to California to be with you, Haunted, make sure it's for the summer, or for a month, and sign her up for a half-day camp, sailing lessons, vacation bible school, whatever. Kids at ages five, six, seven make friends easily and quickly - and the friends they make then will still be around in their teens, when being away from friends is more difficult. You have a huge advantage that you have a young daughter, not a teenager - I daresay this would not work so well if she were 13, but it would work well if she is five. Help her create a 'second life' with you in your new community, and that cross-country trip wil be something she looks forward to.


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## Butterbelly (Mar 5, 2009)

I, too, met my husband here at Dimensions. One of the first things I knew about him before I knew we grew up in the same part of the country was that he had a little girl from a previous marriage. I'll be the first to admit that dating someone with a child was not on my list to ever do, because I have always been on the fence about wanting children. After getting to know Dan, I soon realized that while his daughter lived a thousand miles from him, he thought of her almost every second of every minute of every day. She is the most important person in his life, and I'm quite alright with that. Being a stepmother now is not as challenging as I thought it would be. I'm sure there will be a point in time that it becomes a bit more challenging, however I look forward to experiencing that with my husband. Being so far away from her presents many challenges in itself. We miss out on school programs, helping with homework, and even the dreadful "someone was mean to me today" drama. While these things may seem trivial, children do remember the small things because to them, they're huge.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 5, 2009)

chocolate desire said:


> Ok if I may I want to put a spin on this.Almost everyone knows I have 6 kids but what everyone dont know is that at one point and time I was homeless when my kids were young. I was buyinga home when my youngest childs father and I broke up( my kids have 3 dads) and on a single income with six kids I could not keep up the payments.My family is very religoius and because in my early teens they was very much against me comming home but they did take my kids in. For 3 years I was from here and there until I was able to get myself together. All during that time I kept in contact with my kids and as soon as I was able to get myself together I moved back to my hometown got all my kids back and we made it work.
> My only problem is that right now all my kids are grown except two but they are very clingy just ask my mate Mr Wylde(he always calls me a mother hen).
> We have a great relationship there is no resentment and all my kids are part of my everyday life to this day.
> 
> ...



There is a difference between having to be separated from your children due to work, educational, or financial circumstances, and choosing to leave your child because you want to pursue a romantic relationship. According to Haunted's blog (which he links in his signature so I assume it is ok to reference), his work and financial prospects are better where he and his daughter live now.

Nobody is suggesting that he plans to not stay in touch with his daughter if he leaves her. Nobody is suggesting it's not better than nothing. What has been said over and over and over again by women who have been there is that there is great potential for serious emotional harm to be done to his daughter if he runs across the country to live with another woman and her three daughters.


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## chocolate desire (Mar 6, 2009)

Well the man I call my daddy(he is really my stepdad but has been there for me more than my real dad)left my mom when I was 7. I was very sad and confused and upset with him for up and leaving I did not understand why. I ended up hating my mom something that I still carry with me till this day because I thought she ran him off. I won't go into the details of their divorce but his actions (that I was to young to notice) had alot to do with it. I still love and adore my dad to this day and I will until my dying days even though I remember sleeping with a shirt he left behind for 2 years. I also remember the nights I sat and waited for him to come back. My dad now has alzheimer's and he might not remember what he had for breakfast but he sure as heck can tell you stories about a fat lil butterball that he had to carry everywhere.
I say this just to say sure there might be plenty of children that hate that their parent mom or dad is not around but I sure as hell hope I am not the only one that loves her parent for being one for as long as he did when he did not have to be.
I Love you Dad.


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## Elij (Mar 7, 2009)

butch said:


> I'm not making a claim as to the particular situation, as I have zero real life knowledge of use here. Just pointing out that good parents, in the best of intentions, can fuck up their kids. Sometimes I think the Freudians are right, it really is all our parents fault (I kid, I kid .



I guess we can spend our entire lives blaming our parents (or ourselves) or we can do something about it. My parents had a terrible relationship with constant fighting, nagging, defensiveness, and contempt in almost every daily conversation they had. Unfortunately, I am an only child and had to deal with it myself until I moved out at 18. I too started down the path of defensiveness, depression and blame. However, now I am a well-adjusted adult that has no problems entering or maintaining relationships. What I decided to do is learn from my parents faults and do whatever I need to do to make sure I didn't follow in their footsteps. This included letting go of my own pride, looking into myself, and being honest with myself about my faults and shortfalls. 

Let's stop blaming our parents and stop letting their pyschological control continue to run our adult lives.


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## butch (Mar 8, 2009)

Elij said:


> I guess we can spend our entire lives blaming our parents (or ourselves) or we can do something about it. My parents had a terrible relationship with constant fighting, nagging, defensiveness, and contempt in almost every daily conversation they had. Unfortunately, I am an only child and had to deal with it myself until I moved out at 18. I too started down the path of defensiveness, depression and blame. However, now I am a well-adjusted adult that has no problems entering or maintaining relationships. What I decided to do is learn from my parents faults and do whatever I need to do to make sure I didn't follow in their footsteps. This included letting go of my own pride, looking into myself, and being honest with myself about my faults and shortfalls.
> 
> Let's stop blaming our parents and stop letting their pyschological control continue to run our adult lives.



I'm glad you're able to do this. I feel like I've done the same things, but gotten different results. C'est la vie, I guess.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 8, 2009)

Elij said:


> I guess we can spend our entire lives blaming our parents (or ourselves) or we can do something about it. My parents had a terrible relationship with constant fighting, nagging, defensiveness, and contempt in almost every daily conversation they had. Unfortunately, I am an only child and had to deal with it myself until I moved out at 18. I too started down the path of defensiveness, depression and blame. However, now I am a well-adjusted adult that has no problems entering or maintaining relationships. What I decided to do is learn from my parents faults and do whatever I need to do to make sure I didn't follow in their footsteps. *This included letting go of my own pride, looking into myself, and being honest with myself about my faults and shortfalls. *
> 
> Let's stop blaming our parents and stop letting their pyschological control continue to run our adult lives.



Wow, reminds me of the 12 steps for some reason......


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 9, 2009)

> It just seems to me that as much as you are looking for honest opinions you really really want someone to tell you it'll be OK to go. Dude, it is not OK.



Lucky _perfectly_ encapsulates this entire thread.

I sincerely hope both Haunted and Kali will listen to what has been said here.


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## fat hiker (Mar 10, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Nobody is suggesting that he plans to not stay in touch with his daughter if he leaves her. Nobody is suggesting it's not better than nothing. What has been said over and over and over again by women who have been there is that there is great potential for serious emotional harm to be done to his daughter if he runs across the country to live with another woman and her three daughters.



And if he does not pursue his heart, and instead stays where he is, for his daughter, but not for himself, what sort of emotional damage will that do? 

We all remember that people used to stay in marriages "for the good of the children" - and we all know how the bitterness of that situation corroded the children for whom it was supposed to be 'good'. 

Daddy being on the other side of the country for romantic reasons, and separated from his children, is little different from Daddy being away for economic or travel or job reasons; from the child's point of view, it is all separation, and not good. But from the point of view of the mothers who have been left, it is very different because it is 'romance', and while he may come back to the children, he won't come back to her. What I hear in the mothers' reactions here is a lot of aggrieved divorced women talking - and, sorry, but they are NOT the best evaluators of their children's emotional needs, as they cannot separate those from their feeling of loss.

Every which way, it's a bitch of a situation. But if the parents are not happy, you can bet your bottom dollar the children won't be.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> And if he does not pursue his heart, and instead stays where he is, for his daughter, but not for himself, what sort of emotional damage will that do?
> 
> We all remember that people used to stay in marriages "for the good of the children" - and we all know how the bitterness of that situation corroded the children for whom it was supposed to be 'good'.
> 
> ...



Since when is a mother not the best evaluator of her child's emotional needs? Just because LisainNC and GEF are divorced moms does not in any way make them less capable of understanding what their children need.

Have you not heard the aggrievement of Ivy, Elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz or myself? All posted from the point of view of the child, NOT the mother.

Most striking to me was BigBellySSBBW's post. She has said numerous times that she is unhappy in the UK, that she had trouble getting approval for surgery she needs, that she misses her relatives in the US, and that the UK is not fat friendly. _However,_ she moved there to be with her husband because she did not consider it an option for him to be away from his son. IOW, a woman who is not even a parent understood the best needs of a child. To her, asking a man to leave his child was wrong.


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## fat hiker (Mar 10, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Since when is a mother not the best evaluator of her child's emotional needs? Just because LisainNC and GEF are divorced moms does not in any way make them less capable of understanding what their children need.
> 
> Have you not heard the aggrievement of Ivy, Elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz or myself? All posted from the point of view of the child, NOT the mother.
> 
> To her, asking a man to leave his child was wrong.



I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?

The whole mythology that 'mothers know their children best' desperately needs shattering. Mothers may do so. Fathers may do so. Sometimes, neither of them has a clue, and those children are the ones who really end up emotionally damaged. I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves. Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children. As a father, a stepfather, and someone who has worked with many children, I have seen too much 'programming by aggrieve mother' to believe that mothers know best. Mothers abuse children, as fathers do. Some children need to be removed from their mothers, others from their fathers. And, I'll say it again - any absence of either parent is a bad thing, and the reason for that absence makes less difference than the absence itself. BUT, it takes a village to raise a child, not JUST a mother, and children are amazingly resilient and flexible. They will take their role models where they find them - and they only get aggrieved at ages under 12 IF they are taught to be so by a bitter parent.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 10, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?
> 
> The whole mythology that 'mothers know their children best' desperately needs shattering. Mothers may do so. Fathers may do so. Sometimes, neither of them has a clue, and those children are the ones who really end up emotionally damaged. I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves. Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children. As a father, a stepfather, and someone who has worked with many children, I have seen too much 'programming by aggrieve mother' to believe that mothers know best. Mothers abuse children, as fathers do. Some children need to be removed from their mothers, others from their fathers. And, I'll say it again - any absence of either parent is a bad thing, and the reason for that absence makes less difference than the absence itself. BUT, it takes a village to raise a child, not JUST a mother, and children are amazingly resilient and flexible. They will take their role models where they find them - and they only get aggrieved at ages under 12 IF they are taught to be so by a bitter parent.



fat hiker, if I were to fathom a guess about your background, I'd assume a very bitter divorce took place in the recent past, and/or is about to take place.

Also, most of the women that you've referenced above are not only childless, they are young and unmarried to boot. In other words, they don't have the kind of baggage that I see swimming gaily betwixt the lines of what you've posted above.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?
> 
> The whole mythology that 'mothers know their children best' desperately needs shattering. Mothers may do so. Fathers may do so. Sometimes, neither of them has a clue, and those children are the ones who really end up emotionally damaged. I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves. Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children. As a father, a stepfather, and someone who has worked with many children, I have seen too much 'programming by aggrieve mother' to believe that mothers know best. Mothers abuse children, as fathers do. Some children need to be removed from their mothers, others from their fathers. And, I'll say it again - any absence of either parent is a bad thing, and the reason for that absence makes less difference than the absence itself. BUT, it takes a village to raise a child, not JUST a mother, and children are amazingly resilient and flexible. They will take their role models where they find them - and they only get aggrieved at ages under 12 IF they are taught to be so by a bitter parent.



1. Clearly you did not even bother to read Donni's post. Her husband has a son, not a daughter. Why can't you accept that she is merely a rational and mature adult with sensible values who understands the importance of a child being with his dad, why do you just *know* she is going to resent an innocent child?

2. Nobody has said mothers trump fathers. Once again, if you actually bothered to _read the posts_ here you'd see that Cinnamitch, for one, was abandoned by her mother and not her father. Nobody is being sexist or saying that one parent means more than the other or is more capable of parenting properly.

3. Given that you don't know any of us, nor our families, you have ZERO rationale for simply assuming that the women who have posted here don't know their own minds. Only adults post here....not children. This thread has had posts from women well into adulthood who are capable of knowing themselves and their own situations. It is so so so bloody sexist to say "Oh, that is just the bitter, angry divorced mother talking. Anything negative only comes out of a woman who is bitter and angry about a man leaving her."


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 10, 2009)

I know, Haunted, that this is what you _want_ to do. And I'm sure it's the best thing for you, because who doesn't want love in their lives? But I will never tell you that it's the best thing for your child, because it's not. 

I say this as someone who took her kids away from their father and like Ella Bella, I sometimes kick myself for my decision. Despite everything that my ex did to me, despite him consistently putting work first, despite the abuse, I'm the "bad guy" with my daughter because I took her away from her father, the father who called it "babysitting" when I needed him to stay home and watch over the kids so I could leave the house by myself for a couple of hours. Despite everything she witnessed, she blames me for everything and our relationship is wrecked. I love her and this breaks my heart, but I have no control over her perception of her childhood, just as you'll have no control over how your daughter perceives you leaving her.

Do what you want, but know that when your daughter reaches her teens, she may very well use this as a knife in your heart. She will resent you, and she will make you pay, and with good reason. You're asking her to accept "second best", so that you can have the life you want. So, when she puts you aside for her friends, for a boyfriend, husband, etc (and that day will come sooner than you think) just don't be surprised.



LoveBHMS said:


> Most tellingly, you've written extensively about your relationship with Kali which has included webcams, texts, phone calls, and visits. You've made it clear that that is just not enough for you---you need to be with her. *A relationship via modern technology isn't good enough for your girlfriend so whyever would you think that it's going to be good enough for your daughter as far as having a dad?*



Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it will be even so much worse because Kali has daughters which will have more of you than your own daughter. She will never feel good enough, never feel secure with you again. Ever. And if you don't think this will affect her future relationships with men, then you have another thing coming. My father died when I was 12 and it forever colored my relationships with men. I can only imagine that having a father move away from his daughter by choice will be even more damaging, especially for such a young child. 



> Let's stop blaming our parents and stop letting their pyschological control continue to run our adult lives.



Okay, I understand this. It serves no one to place blame and end up stuck in the same psychological rut because of a difficult childhood. I warrant that mine was way worse than most people's here. I was physically and sexually abused by family members after losing both my parents to cancer and heart disease, two months apart, when I was 12 years old. Prior to my parents' deaths I was systematically tortured by my older brother, who tried to drown me in our family swimming pool. He locked me in trunks in a 100 degree attic. He locked me in my room. He later threatened my life while driving us in a vehicle and it was only because my infant son was in the car that I said "enough" and put that man out of my life. It would have been really easy to use my experiences to justify poor choices, but I didn't. I moved on, married a wonderful man and have healthy relationships with friends, family and my kids.

All that being said, when we make babies, we have the responsibility to try not to give them issues that they will struggle to overcome as they mature. It's hard enough growing up and dealing with all the crap the world has to offer. It's so much worse doing that with emotional road blocks put up by parents who could do better but who choose, through their own selfishness, not to.



fat hiker said:


> Daddy being on the other side of the country for romantic reasons, and separated from his children, is little different from Daddy being away for economic or travel or job reasons; from the child's point of view, it is all separation, and not good.



I disagree. Kids will be resentful if daddy leaves for financial reasons, but at least they can understand that daddy did it for the family's financial well being. However, a child will never understand a parent choosing someone else. It's bad enough that it's a woman but even worse it's a woman with kids, kids who will get all the time and access that that child won't.



fat hiker said:


> I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?



I think that's a stretch. As an adult, BBSSBBW knows the difference between free will and being "dragged" somewhere. She chose to go. It's a different thing when it's a child.



> I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves.



I think you're hearing what you want to hear. And of course you won't hear too much from children. Dimensions is an adult site. 



> Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children.



What emotional damage are you talking about?


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## mossystate (Mar 10, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> > Daddy being on the other side of the country for romantic reasons, and separated from his children, is little different from Daddy being away for economic or travel or job reasons; from the child's point of view, it is all separation, and not good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## fat hiker (Mar 10, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> 1. Clearly you did not even bother to read Donni's post. Her husband has a son, not a daughter. Why can't you accept that she is merely a rational and mature adult with sensible values who understands the importance of a child being with his dad, why do you just *know* she is going to resent an innocent child?.



Oops, my mistake, about the son. Sorry.

I hope it doesn't happen, I hope she doesn't develop that resentment; I hope, in fact, that she learns to love the UK instead of resenting it as she says she does now. But I have seen and learned of enough cases of it that I know that's a hope, not a certainty.



LoveBHMS said:


> 2. Nobody has said mothers trump fathers. Once again, if you actually bothered to _read the posts_ here you'd see that Cinnamitch, for one, was abandoned by her mother and not her father. Nobody is being sexist or saying that one parent means more than the other or is more capable of parenting properly.



Actually, you did, when you insisted that since when is a mother not the best person to determine her child's needs. I was only pointing out that ASSUMING that the mother is the best person to do that is often wrong - fathers, or someone else, may be best placed to do so.




LoveBHMS said:


> 3. Given that you don't know any of us, nor our families, you have ZERO rationale for simply assuming that the women who have posted here don't know their own minds. Only adults post here....not children. This thread has had posts from women well into adulthood who are capable of knowing themselves and their own situations. It is so so so bloody sexist to say "Oh, that is just the bitter, angry divorced mother talking. Anything negative only comes out of a woman who is bitter and angry about a man leaving her."



And that was my point - none of you know the man we are all talking about, or his situation, or his ex, yet so many people are posting as if THEIR situation was THE ANSWER! It isn't. Giving advice based off one case, one's own life, is dangerous. If you say, this happened to me, good. If you go on to say, therefore you should - sorry, you don't know him, or them, and the advice, delivered in absolutist terms, isn't useful and will be ignored. As apparently it is being ignored.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

> Um, I am smelling some primo projection.



*sniff sniff*

Oh THAT'S what that is. Yeah, I smelled it too.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 10, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> And that was my point - none of you know the man we are all talking about, or his situation, or his ex, yet so many people are posting as if THEIR situation was THE ANSWER! It isn't. Giving advice based off one case, one's own life, is dangerous. If you say, this happened to me, good. If you go on to say, therefore you should - sorry, you don't know him, or them, and the advice, delivered in absolutist terms, isn't useful and will be ignored. As apparently it is being ignored.



Well, I believe in one of the early posts they said that they wanted to hear about our experiences. If you want only technical information, sourced from professional textbooks and peer reviewed journals, I can provide that. I studied a bit of child development in my nursing education so I'm sure I can drag out information that supports my argument. But I think people's stories and experiences are so much more powerful than reading something out of a book. 

If Haunted wants to know how this will affect _*his*_ daughter, then he should get her into therapy now and have a professional evaluate her. That way when he does leave, she will have a therapist in place to help her deal with the very real probability that she'll have abandonment issues. Perhaps a therapist will be able to help her not blame herself or feel "less than" because daddy chose to move across the country to be with someone he met on the internet.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

> I hope it doesn't happen, I hope she doesn't develop that resentment; I hope, in fact, that she learns to love the UK instead of resenting it as she says she does now. *But I have seen and learned of enough cases of it that I know that's a hope, not a certainty*.



What you have seen is not applicable to Donni's life or values or the values of her husband with regards to his child. How she feels about the UK may well have nothing to do with how she feels about her stepson. Even if she HATES it every single day of her life, that does not mean she's going to be so short sighted as to blame her husband's child for her discomfort, unhappiness, or stress. She's an adult, she chose to be with a particular life partner, AND she seems to have seen it as a given that her husband's child needed his dad. She may have an infinite amount of negative feelings about her situation, but that does not automatically translate into blaming or resenting a four year old who had nothing to do with her personal troubles.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Mar 10, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> infinite amount of negative feelings about her situation




lmao. Is it THAT obvious, lol. I don't bitch as much as I used to!



In all seriousness fat hiker....I am a very smart woman, and well adjusted now matter how miserable I am, I have still adjusted emotionally.

I would NEVER ever blame the child for the woes. Now my husband on the other hand, there are some resentments there, but they are getting less and less every day as I work though my own selfish, self centred idea of what my life should be like. My stepson is an innocent victim of his parents splitting up. My stepson has had to get to know some strange fat lady whom his daddy loves instead of his mummy. How can I be mad at that or resentful at that???? My heart breaks into a million little pieces that his life isn't with a textbook nuclear family.

Now, I'm not dumb. I know if I tried hard enough I could get Mike to move to the US and we might in the future, but not now. Not when development is soooo important. I could just lay down the line and make Mike chose, but why? What sort of woman would that make me if I expected a man to tear out his heart and rip it into shreds for ME??? I'm no body special, I had my chance at childhood, now it is my stepsons.

I'm old fashioned though. I think kids should always comes first in nearly every single situation. When you have kids, by choice or not, you do not have your own life to live anymore until that child is of an age that they have their own life to live.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> lmao. Is it THAT obvious, lol. I don't bitch as much as I used to!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What hits me harder than anything is the fact that the child in question is not even hers. She is NOT a parent. So fathiker, at least in THIS situation there is no possible way to flip this off as "oh, that's just a bitter divorced woman's voice talking."

The above post is the words of an _adult_ woman who seems to have almost instinctively placed the well being of a child ahead of her own. Without knowing her husband, I would suspect he loves and respects her all the more for it.


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## Haunted (Mar 10, 2009)

I did ask for experiences. and i appreciate the honesty 

I have made no decision, Yes i want to be with Kali, and i beat myself up daily over possibly moving away from my daughter. 

None of you need to Point fingers at me and make me feel like more of a monster! and don't tell me noone has. the moderators have already been sure to delete the most obvious attacks

i asked for thoughts on the subject. not judgment, and if i do move it's temporary the final goal is to bring her and and the kids here. and because of schedules and schools i'm hoping to have my daughter stay with us full time once i'm back here.

I don't know where i'm headed but alot of you seem to have it figured out for me. If i had all the answers i wouldn't have needed a divorce in the first place. 

i am not some loathsome despicable father if that where the case i'd have left already and completely turned my back on my daughter. 

Right back at ya, You don't know me, My Daughter, My ex or Kali and you don't know the situation. you made this personal. i just asked the question how do long distance parents do it. I didn't ask whether i was a good parent or not. I know I am!


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

Not one post on here has been judgemental or called you a monster.

Yes there was one personal attack that I read that the mods deleted, but beyond that, it has been *all* either personal experiences or opinions on parenting, *not* on any of you personally.

You've gotten five pages of personal experiences and observations from daughters who were in your daughter's position, from parents, from spouses of parents, and a few from posters who are adults and expressing opinions on child rearing. You're gonna do what you're gonna do, but I would hope it's been of some value to read the words of adult women who were in your daughter's shoes and just _see_ where it might end up. You've also gotten the words single parents who were in similar situations tell you how their actions affected their children; those are not judgement calls against you but merely recounting of personal experience.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 10, 2009)

Haunted, the only advice I am going to give you is -- follow your heart. It's not about what anyone else thinks, only you and the woman you love. I married a man with a 15 year old daughter and a 16 year old son. We moved across the country. They hated us for doing that. 16 years later we all have great relationships. 

Do what you think is right.


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## mossystate (Mar 10, 2009)

Haunted said:


> > None of you need to Point fingers at me and make me feel like more of a monster!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Haunted, the only advice I am going to give you is -- follow your heart. It's not about what anyone else thinks, only you and the woman you love. I married a man with a 15 year old daughter and a 16 year old son. We moved across the country. They hated us for doing that. 16 years later we all have great relationships.
> 
> Do what you think is right.



It's not about what we think, you're right.

But it is also not only about him and the woman he loves. There are children involved here and they *matter.* Becoming a parent means you have to think about how your actions affect your kids; it's the nature of what parenting means. Just because your personal circumstances change does *not* give you a pass on considering the needs of a five year old child.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 10, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> And if he does not pursue his heart, and instead stays where he is, for his daughter, but not for himself, what sort of emotional damage will that do?
> 
> We all remember that people used to stay in marriages "for the good of the children" - and we all know how the bitterness of that situation corroded the children for whom it was supposed to be 'good'.
> 
> ...





LoveBHMS said:


> Since when is a mother not the best evaluator of her child's emotional needs? Just because LisainNC and GEF are divorced moms does not in any way make them less capable of understanding what their children need.
> 
> Have you not heard the aggrievement of Ivy, Elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz or myself? All posted from the point of view of the child, NOT the mother.
> 
> Most striking to me was BigBellySSBBW's post. She has said numerous times that she is unhappy in the UK, that she had trouble getting approval for surgery she needs, that she misses her relatives in the US, and that the UK is not fat friendly. _However,_ she moved there to be with her husband because she did not consider it an option for him to be away from his son. IOW, a woman who is not even a parent understood the best needs of a child. To her, asking a man to leave his child was wrong.





fat hiker said:


> I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?
> 
> The whole mythology that 'mothers know their children best' desperately needs shattering. Mothers may do so. Fathers may do so. Sometimes, neither of them has a clue, and those children are the ones who really end up emotionally damaged. I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves. Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children. As a father, a stepfather, and someone who has worked with many children, I have seen too much 'programming by aggrieve mother' to believe that mothers know best. Mothers abuse children, as fathers do. Some children need to be removed from their mothers, others from their fathers. And, I'll say it again - any absence of either parent is a bad thing, and the reason for that absence makes less difference than the absence itself. BUT, it takes a village to raise a child, not JUST a mother, and children are amazingly resilient and flexible. They will take their role models where they find them - and they only get aggrieved at ages under 12 IF they are taught to be so by a bitter parent.





TraciJo67 said:


> fat hiker, if I were to fathom a guess about your background, I'd assume a very bitter divorce took place in the recent past, and/or is about to take place.
> 
> Also, most of the women that you've referenced above are not only childless, they are young and unmarried to boot. In other words, they don't have the kind of baggage that I see swimming gaily betwixt the lines of what you've posted above.





Lol, why Fat Hiker...you little devil. You obviously started reading the thread and :
1. Got angry because women were angry
2. Have your own pile of baggage that guides your steps. Let me guess...you don't like your mother....she is probably the reason why you feel the need to encompass in your psyche and describe all women that way. 
3. You have probably been left by a woman in an adult relationship. With your attitude, no wonder.
4.You are probably single now....and if you're not, I'm sure you don't share this belief about all women with her and then try to go to sleep in the same bed.
5. I doubt you are a parent. If you are, then I am sure you have an ex that has custody. Would explain your over-reactionary posts here. 
6. You don't listen/read well and jump to quick judgments. I posted as a child from a divorced home...not a divorced woman. My ex didn't leave me...I left him so your theories of romance and divorce are out of sync in your assessment. 
7. My father didn't leave my mom- she left him and neither for another person. My father really DID have to stay where he was for his job....and it DOES make a difference to me that was the reason why. 
8. This thread is about Haunted asking for opinions and you turned it into hate filled woman bashing......stop hijacking threads with your venom. 



Oh, and my "psycho-analysis" and total disregard of your opinions/perceptions are no more over the top than that shit you posted above. Get over your anger and stop being so bitter towards women.


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## GoldenDelicious (Mar 10, 2009)

Hi haunted, I gave this a lot of thought and started to write you a large reply with stories of two guys I dated in the past who were fathers of daughters. I went on about how different they were as fathers, one misguided and one very bad and unreliable. I deleted the thing by accident which I took as a sign that you weren't meant to read it so all I will say is this. I think you should relocate. Like you said it would be easier for you than your partner and uprooting her kids from their school, friends, family and the life they know.

It will be painful to leave her but the difference is you will not be an unreliable and absent father. Distance will be there but you will stay in touch and like you said have great holidays with her. You will be more likely to then make your time with her real quality time and you will be organised and make it happen. So long as your daughter talks to you on the phone regularly and sees you on webcam and knows you are there to listen to her and tell her you love her she WILL NOT feel abandoned. When I was a child my dad worked away from home a lot granted he and my mother were still together but I missed him when he was away. There were times when it was tough for my mum because she got lonely without my dad at home every night. I was totally unaffected, probably selfish,lol. My dad loved me and was there for me and I knew he loved me and was away working hard to provide my mum and I with a good life. Your daughter will understand and I actually think it is better that she is only five, they are more adaptable at that age. If she was a teenager you might be in for a rough ride.

Why should you deny your own happiness? If your future lies with this woman then you have no choice but to move and be with her. We shouldn't rely upon relationships to make us happy but that doesn't mean you should deny yourself being with the woman you love because you have fortnightly contact with your daughter. I know I sound harsh but life is too short to wait. You might love living in your new place and gain more opportunities there. If it doesn't work out and the distance from your daughter is too great then you can look at new options. Your woman sounds lovely and the type of person who would do her best to keep your relationship with your daughter strong, being a mother herself and with her past experience she will keep you right on how to prevent your daughter from feeling abandoned. The harsh reality is your daughter will grow up and meet someone and have her own life, which could include emmigrating to another country, do you think for a minute she would say, I better not follow my heart and my chance of love because I'll miss my dear old dad...no chance! I have so much more I could say on the subject but I'm going to send you a private message to explain a little more. 

Good luck and all the best whatever you decide to do. x


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## Sugar (Mar 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> *
> Why should you deny your own happiness? * x



BECAUSE HE DECIDED TO BRING ANOTHER LIFE INTO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!!!

It's no longer about him to a very real and tangible extent.

For the love of Pete...:doh:


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 10, 2009)

Lucky said:


> BECAUSE HE DECIDED TO BRING ANOTHER LIFE INTO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It's no longer about him to a very real and tangible extent.
> 
> For the love of Pete...:doh:



You know, as my kids were growing up, there are a lot of things I wanted to do. I wanted to go back to school or work right away. I wanted to go on trips -- alone. I wanted to buy myself a two seater convertible. I wanted to go out for drinks with my friends. But I couldn't. Why? Because I had a child and once you choose to be a parent, your desires must become secondary to your child's needs.

And while it's a lot more immediately satisfying to have the goodies you want, I think that most people are much happier people, knowing they did their best by their kids. That's a kind of deeper happiness. Sure, I missed out on a lot of fun by putting my kids first, but I didn't miss out on their childhood. And that's HUGE, in my book.


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## fffff (Mar 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Hi haunted, I gave this a lot of thought and started to write you a large reply with stories of two guys I dated in the past who were fathers of daughters. I went on about how different they were as fathers, one misguided and one very bad and unreliable. I deleted the thing by accident which I took as a sign that you weren't meant to read it so all I will say is this. I think you should relocate. Like you said it would be easier for you than your partner and uprooting her kids from their school, friends, family and the life they know.
> 
> It will be painful to leave her but the difference is you will not be an unreliable and absent father. Distance will be there but you will stay in touch and like you said have great holidays with her. You will be more likely to then make your time with her real quality time and you will be organised and make it happen. So long as your daughter talks to you on the phone regularly and sees you on webcam and knows you are there to listen to her and tell her you love her she WILL NOT feel abandoned. When I was a child my dad worked away from home a lot granted he and my mother were still together but I missed him when he was away. There were times when it was tough for my mum because she got lonely without my dad at home every night. I was totally unaffected, probably selfish,lol. My dad loved me and was there for me and I knew he loved me and was away working hard to provide my mum and I with a good life. Your daughter will understand and I actually think it is better that she is only five, they are more adaptable at that age. If she was a teenager you might be in for a rough ride.
> 
> ...



There are so many things about this post that I think are completely wrong. Hopefully someone with a better grasp of english than me will reply and go through this point by point, but I'll just say what you're saying flies in the face of every experience I, or any woman I've known have had. 

I mean, just the fact that you would compare a grown adult moving away from their parents and a father leaving his 5-year-old daughter tells me you don't know what you're talking about. 
Relationships can last a lifetime, childhood is a very fleeting thing.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Hi haunted, I gave this a lot of thought and started to write you a large reply with stories of two guys I dated in the past who were fathers of daughters. I went on about how different they were as fathers, one misguided and one very bad and unreliable. I deleted the thing by accident which I took as a sign that you weren't meant to read it so all I will say is this. I think you should relocate. Like you said it would be easier for you than your partner and uprooting her kids from their school, friends, family and the life they know.
> 
> It will be painful to leave her but the difference is you will not be an unreliable and absent father. Distance will be there but you will stay in touch and like you said have great holidays with her. You will be more likely to then make your time with her real quality time and you will be organised and make it happen. So long as your daughter talks to you on the phone regularly and sees you on webcam and knows you are there to listen to her and tell her you love her she WILL NOT feel abandoned. When I was a child my dad worked away from home a lot granted he and my mother were still together but I missed him when he was away. There were times when it was tough for my mum because she got lonely without my dad at home every night. I was totally unaffected, probably selfish,lol. My dad loved me and was there for me and I knew he loved me and was away working hard to provide my mum and I with a good life. Your daughter will understand and I actually think it is better that she is only five, they are more adaptable at that age. If she was a teenager you might be in for a rough ride.
> 
> ...



It is not harsh reality when children grow up and move away from their parents. That is the natural order of things. It *is not* the natural order of things for parents to abandon their kids. 

This is on a grander scale, but it's often described as the single worst possible pain to have your child die because nobody should bury a child. OTOH, while people grieve over the death of a parent, we all understand that one day our parents will die. We expect to outlive them.

This is not an equal relationship where you should say "Well heck, one day SHE might move away from you, so think nothing of leaving her."

And yes, she will feel abandoned because he will be abandoning her, webcam or no webcam.

As for it being "better because she is only five"? There is just SO MUCH wrong with that. It is not BETTER to leave a small child during her formative years. As Genarose pointed out, she is now at the age where her personality is forming. Going back to the example of losing a parent to death, the trauma is a thousand times greater when a small child loses a parent than an adult does.


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## GoldenDelicious (Mar 10, 2009)

Lucky said:


> BECAUSE HE DECIDED TO BRING ANOTHER LIFE INTO THIS WORLD!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It's no longer about him to a very real and tangible extent.
> 
> For the love of Pete...:doh:


Ok let me defend myself here and for fffff too. I was giving my opinion as asked for by haunted. I am not asking for your opinion on my opinions so I do not appreciate the attacks however thanks for dishing them out. Contrary to both your narrow minded beliefs I am more than qualified to give my opinion and advice on this subject (the details of how are none of your business,) all I will say is this;you don't know anything about me or my experience so what makes either of you qualified to judge?.

Haunted should not deny his own happiness, he may have DECIDED TO BRING ANOTHER LIFE INTO THIS WORLD but that doesn't mean his own should stop or be on hold until his daughter is an adult. He does not have full custody of his daughter and has access to her once a fortnight. None of you even know how often he might get to see her if he moves, it could be once a month and for longer than he sees her now. You are so quick to judge and less so to be supportive of someone with a really difficult decision to make. Surely the man deserves to be with the woman he loves and be all the happier for it? If he has a happy and loving home life with a loving woman in a good family, then he has more to offer his daughter when he does see her. If he ends up lonely and depressed what kind of father will he be?, you can be more than absent in body you know.


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## GoldenDelicious (Mar 10, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> It is not harsh reality when children grow up and move away from their parents. That is the natural order of things. It *is not* the natural order of things for parents to abandon their kids.
> 
> This is on a grander scale, but it's often described as the single worst possible pain to have your child die because nobody should bury a child. OTOH, while people grieve over the death of a parent, we all understand that one day our parents will die. We expect to outlive them.
> 
> ...


Like I said already I'm not the one asking for advice so why don't you make your criticism constructive and give haunted some advice on how he can make his relationship and his family life work instead of berating me?

As far as I know noone is dying therefore noone will be mourning. If you knew anything about me you would not have used that particular example to make your point but I suppose I have to make allowances for ignorance.

He is not abandoning his daughtet by moving house, he has made a plan and is going to see her and talk to her regularly. What about parents who choose to work 14 hour days and put money over family time or need to work night shift then sleep during the day and never see their kids, are they abandoning them too? I bet not. Why then is he being criticised when his choice is for love of his partner. By the way, if you know about child development you will know that 5 is an age where children are adaptable to change and they have enough cognitive ability to understand more than dolls and teddy bears.

I'm not saying he should make this decision lightly and it is one that he will need to live with but it is his decision and he deserves a little understanding not preachy harsh critics.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Like I said already I'm not the one asking for advice so why don't you make your criticism constructive and give haunted some advice on how he can make his relationship and his family life work instead of berating me?
> 
> As far as I know noone is dying therefore noone will be mourning. If you knew anything about me you would not have used that particular example to make your point but I suppose I have to make allowances for ignorance.
> 
> ...



He came on here and asked for opinions from anyone who had been through this. Since I never had children I can't offer the perspective of a parent, I just spoke as a child who had been where his daughter is. As TraciJo67 pointed out, numerous posts were from the same point of view.


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## Sugar (Mar 10, 2009)

GoldenDelicious said:


> Ok let me defend myself here and for fffff too. I was giving my opinion as asked for by haunted. I am not asking for your opinion on my opinions so I do not appreciate the attacks however thanks for dishing them out. Contrary to both your narrow minded beliefs I am more than qualified to give my opinion and advice on this subject (the details of how are none of your business,) all I will say is this;you don't know anything about me or my experience so what makes either of you qualified to judge?.
> 
> Haunted should not deny his own happiness, he may have DECIDED TO BRING ANOTHER LIFE INTO THIS WORLD but that doesn't mean his own should stop or be on hold until his daughter is an adult. He does not have full custody of his daughter and has access to her once a fortnight. None of you even know how often he might get to see her if he moves, it could be once a month and for longer than he sees her now. You are so quick to judge and less so to be supportive of someone with a really difficult decision to make. Surely the man deserves to be with the woman he loves and be all the happier for it? If he has a happy and loving home life with a loving woman in a good family, then he has more to offer his daughter when he does see her. If he ends up lonely and depressed what kind of father will he be?, you can be more than absent in body you know.



If what I said is an attack then I'm also Marlon Brando and I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to talk to you about. 

You said "Why shouldn't", I answered my opinion...one that's been shared by many on this thread.

The very real fact is that we all deserve things good and bad...this isn't about what HE deserves. This is about where his responsibility lies. If he feels it lies clear across the country with a woman and her children than where his child is...well that's on him. The choices he makes in the next few years will shape that child's life FOREVER. 

Just because we can be selfish human beings doesn't mean we should.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 10, 2009)

Just because "everyone" says the same thing, doesn't mean you should listen to "everyone". No ones life is perfect, I grew up with both my parents and I'm still fucked up. So, I still say follow your heart, everyone has to follow their own path.


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## mergirl (Mar 10, 2009)

i WISH my father had moved away when i was young, i would have ended up with a lot less mental illnesses.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 10, 2009)

Lucky said:


> The very real fact is that we all deserve things good and bad...this isn't about what HE deserves. This is about where his responsibility lies. If he feels it lies clear across the country with a woman and her children than where his child is...well that's on him. The choices he makes in the next few years will shape that child's life FOREVER.
> 
> Just because we can be selfish human beings doesn't mean we should.



Exactly.

And let's not forget the OP posted on here _asking_ for input and honesty. 

More and more it's making me think of the quote oft attributed to (I think) Harry Truman which is the best way to give advice is to figure out what the person wants to do anyway and then advise them to do it.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Mar 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> i WISH my father had moved away when i was young, i would have ended up with a lot less mental illnesses.



Same here.


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## steely (Mar 10, 2009)

mergirl said:


> i WISH my father had moved away when i was young, i would have ended up with a lot less mental illnesses.



Let me second that.


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## Sugar (Mar 10, 2009)

steely said:


> Let me second that.



I'm sorry you three feel this way about your fathers. That being said I don't believe for a second that Haunted is that kind of Dad...I don't think she'd be well served with him across the country. 

I only wish we could say that about all fathers.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 10, 2009)

I just want to input that even though I don't know Haunted, he doesn't seem like a "bad Dad" from his posts. I think he loves his child and has thought of this for a long time. He has posted in other places before that he cannot leave his child so he cannot be with Misty right now. This is a real quandry for him because he loves someone besides his child. I am capable of loving more than just my children, too.....

I have seen "fathers" that do much worse than any of this......and I think it's natural for him to get a little upset when so many post their upset to him. I think he's definitely going to take all the posts here into consideration....even if he's angry/hurt right now. People need time to digest things....especially that information that causes any kind of hurt/upset/pain. 

Yeah, I'm thinking he shouldn't move away when the child is so young myself because of my own experiences growing up in a divorced home. That being said, though...not everyone grew up in my home. Some people...are okay. Divorce, while life changing and painful, doesn't always have to mean horrific tragedy for the rest of everyone's lives. People do move on.....

I don't know.........I'm just not angry at Haunted. I can't be....cause I don't imagine any of this being easy on him. 

I won't say the same for you, though, Fat Hiker


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## cinnamitch (Mar 10, 2009)

I say next time someone comes on wanting "opinions" on a real life situation they are in or going to be in or whatever that we all just sing pretty songs and shoot flowers out our collective asses in support of their decisions so we cant be accused of being jerks, naysayers, opinionated heifers or the like. :doh:


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## Surlysomething (Mar 10, 2009)

I for one am just happy that he cares about his kid. He's asking for opinions and I appreciate that he put himself out there probably knowing full well that he was going to have his ass handed to him.

I lost my mother at a young age and thank my lucky stars that my Dad didn't ditch my sister and I because it was overwhelming. So many men do/have. But it wasn't sunshine and roses. He's not a easy man to have in your life. But the one constant is that he's near me and he would do anything if I needed it. He loves us but he doesn't show it much. I like to think he shows it by staying and doing the best he could.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 11, 2009)

cinnamitch said:


> I say next time someone comes on wanting "opinions" on a real life situation they are in or going to be in or whatever that we all just sing pretty songs and shoot flowers out our collective asses in support of their decisions so we cant be accused of being jerks, naysayers, opinionated heifers or the like. :doh:



Fabulous idea.

Seriously.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 11, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> He came on here and asked for opinions from anyone who had been through this. Since I never had children I can't offer the perspective of a parent, I just spoke as a child who had been where his daughter is. As TraciJo67 pointed out, numerous posts were from the same point of view.



Yes, and I disagreed with most of them.

I just didn't like the anger issues seeping out of the post that I responded to, especially the assumption that you & others who have contributed are bitter divorcees. 

I don't believe that Haunted should have his ass handed to him. It's not an easy decision to make. Personally -- speaking for myself only -- I would not leave my son, ever, no matter what. I'm grateful that it's not a choice I'll ever likely have to make. Kali & Haunted find themselves with a different set of circumstances. I won't judge them. I don't have all of the facts in hand, and no matter how strongly you feel about it (the general you), Haunted is not YOUR father, he didn't leave YOU, and his daughter is not an extension of you. 

In an ideal world, parents stay together and raise their offspring. Children grow up with all of what they need, and plenty of extras. They're healthy and happy and well-adjusted. But then, we don't live in an ideal world. And no matter how much we may wish that things were different, people do divorce, and remarry, and move away from their children, and take on or start new families. I think that it took a lot of courage for Haunted to open himself up like this, on a public message board. He had to know that he'd get a lot of harsh feedback -- I don't for a second believe that he was expecting lots of encouraging "Go for it! A webcam father is just great! It worked for me!" remarks. 

Haunted, I'm not encouraging you one way or the other. If I were in your position, these would be the questions I would be asking myself:

* Is this relationship likely to succeed, and how do I know that for sure? Can I trust these feelings that I have, knowing as I do that I've had these feelings before, and it led to divorce? A LDR, with a few visits scattered here and there, may not provide enough information for me to make such a monumental decision. I would probably need a lot more time, many more visits, and yet more time before I could really trust my instincts and decide if the relationship is the "real deal". 
* Can I trust my ex to be fair and judicious? Will the ex be fully on board and willing to schedule e-visits, allow my child to get on a plane by him/herself, spend summers with me, etc? 
* Can I set aside my own interest, and my needs, and am I willing to be excruciatingly, exasperatingly patient with children who may resent the hell out of me, may act out terribly, may blame ME for his/her parents' divorce (facts don't mean a lot to children), will resist any and all efforts on your part to be any kind of defacto parent -- *this last part can be very, very difficult, especially as you will be living with and supporting these children, and their acting out can be very distressing and unfair to you*. 
* From a practical standpoint, can I make it financially? Have I considered how it will affect me, moving away from everyone I love and from my own support system, and starting over in an entirely new location? How will I deal with the inevitable depression that will creep in? 

I want to be very clear that these would be my questions and issues. I have no idea if you've considered these, and others, and the extent to which you and Kali have discussed your relationship. That's between the two of you, and you don't owe anyone else any kind of explanation. 

You did open yourself up to the exact kind of feedback you got, so there is no point in feeling resentful about it. It takes critical self-examination skills to sort through some very harsh feedback and root out the nuggets of wisdom that often exist there, Haunted. The reward for doing so can make it all worth it, though.


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## fat hiker (Mar 11, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Lol, why Fat Hiker...you little devil. You obviously started reading the thread and :
> 1. Got angry because women were angry.


Nope - got angry because somebody who had asked for experiences was being ordered about, instead.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 2. Have your own pile of baggage that guides your steps. Let me guess...you don't like your mother....she is probably the reason why you feel the need to encompass in your psyche and describe all women that way. .


Nope, my mother is one of my best friends, and a source of help, support, and advise from 50 years of raising her own children and teaching and leading others' children.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 3. You have probably been left by a woman in an adult relationship. With your attitude, no wonder.


Nope. My job has, in past, brought several possible relationships to an early end - since then I've changed jobs.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 4.You are probably single now....and if you're not, I'm sure you don't share this belief about all women with her and then try to go to sleep in the same bed..


Nope, six years happily married, to someone who would have a vigourous debate on this subject with me, and we would end by agreeing to diagree. (by the way, her ex continues to follow her around from city to city).



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 5. I doubt you are a parent. If you are, then I am sure you have an ex that has custody. Would explain your over-reactionary posts here. .


Nope, one son, one stepson, and hundreds of former students and Scouts.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 6. You don't listen/read well and jump to quick judgments. I posted as a child from a divorced home...not a divorced woman. My ex didn't leave me...I left him so your theories of romance and divorce are out of sync in your assessment. .


You read too much into my post - I was responding about divorce and children in general, not about your situation in particular, and trying to open up the discussion instead of letting a particular, narrowly judgmental opinion hold sway. Quoting a particular situation to create a general rule for a total stranger doesn't work, IMHO.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 7. My father didn't leave my mom- she left him and neither for another person. My father really DID have to stay where he was for his job....and it DOES make a difference to me that was the reason why.


And that's healthy for you. 



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> 8. This thread is about Haunted asking for opinions and you turned it into hate filled woman bashing......stop hijacking threads with your venom.


The venom was all the people who were giving Haunted strongly worded, strident advice when he had asked for reflections and opinons. No venom on my part, just an attempt to balance some very strident, 'my way or the highway' opinions that were being floated about as general truths.




Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Oh, and my "psycho-analysis" and total disregard of your opinions/perceptions are no more over the top than that shit you posted above. Get over your anger and stop being so bitter towards women.


I love women. But I have a real problem with those who manipulate, intentionally or unintentionally, children to have a particular point of view, whether they be women or men.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 11, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> Nope - got angry because somebody who had asked for experiences was being ordered about, instead.



Can people on the internet "order" anyone about? :blink:
Didn't realize that posts in a thread would prevent Haunted or anyone else from doing whatever it is they want to in reality. He asked for opinions and input. It should be understood that not all opinions pat people on the back. 



fat hiker said:


> Nope, my mother is one of my best friends, and a source of help, support, and advise from 50 years of raising her own children and teaching and leading others' children.



So I'm glad you respect the opinion of one woman. Have you told her how you regard woman that have had any kind of bad experience in their lives as incapable of being good parents? You spread a broad net in your descriptions. Not everyone that has been through a bad time is "damaged' nor do they "pass damage" onto others. 

You DISMISSED the view point of every women in this thread that didn't say everything would be sunshine and light if Haunted does what he is thinking about doing. 





fat hiker said:


> Nope. My job has, in past, brought several possible relationships to an early end - since then I've changed jobs.






fat hiker said:


> Nope, six years happily married, to someone who would have a vigourous debate on this subject with me, and we would end by agreeing to diagree. (by the way, her ex continues to follow her around from city to city).



Her ex follows her and she doesn't agree with you...do you dismiss her opinions as nothing but rubbish because she had a bad romance? 



fat hiker said:


> Nope, one son, one stepson, and hundreds of former students and Scouts.



Does your wife or ex-wife get any input into the raising of these children? They are both divorced, are they not? And you seem to think that divorced women cannot make rational decisions.....
Or did you just mean the women in this thread because they intimidated you by expressing anger?



fat hiker said:


> You read too much into my post - I was responding about divorce and children in general, not about your situation in particular, and trying to open up the discussion instead of letting a particular, narrowly judgmental opinion hold sway. Quoting a particular situation to create a general rule for a total stranger doesn't work, IMHO.



You spread your opinion about "women who have XYZ". Not all men react to the same thing in the same way......is it a far leap to think that women are capable of the same?
I am one of the women posting in this thread....and you lambasted the opinions of women in this thread as not of value. 

Sure, some women don't know their ass from a hole in the ground....but you are incorrect to stereo-type them all in such a negative, incapable light. 



fat hiker said:


> And that's healthy for you.


Glad to have your approval



fat hiker said:


> The venom was all the people who were giving Haunted strongly worded, strident advice when he had asked for reflections and opinons. No venom on my part, just an attempt to balance some very strident, 'my way or the highway' opinions that were being floated about as general truths.



Once again, you didn't like the posting style of some here so you sought to discredit their words, thoughts and feelings and linked this directly to their sex...not the individuals. Oh wait, no you just immediately placed the blame for all their bad feelings and pain onto their mothers....and totally ignored the fact that their fathers LEFT THEM.....not just their mothers. Whatever Mom's reaction was, it doesn't give Dad a free ride or get out of jail free card. EACH parent is responsible for their behaviors. If dad left his wife and kids to go diddle a much younger women...then he left his wife AND HIS KIDS. HE left them...not their mother. She stayed...he didn't. Kind of simple in the eyes of a child, no matter what Mom says good or bad. See how that works? 
You criticized women that raise their children by themselves as bitter, incapable and bad parents...automatically. This is not the situation for all single mothers. I was raised by a single mother and I am a single mother. Take your harsh, quick, not-so-well-formed judgments elsewhere. I have known plenty of good and bad single mothers and fathers....they are not all created equal. 




fat hiker said:


> I love women. But I have a real problem with those who manipulate, intentionally or unintentionally, children to have a particular point of view, whether they be women or men.



Who manipulated a child in this thread? Who manipulated anyone in this thread? Quote examples please?


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## fat hiker (Mar 12, 2009)

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Can people on the internet "order" anyone about? :blink:
> Didn't realize that posts in a thread would prevent Haunted or anyone else from doing whatever it is they want to in reality. He asked for opinions and input. It should be understood that not all opinions pat people on the back.


If they were presented as opinions, sure. "Haunted, I don't think should" is an opinion. "DON't" is ordering someone about. 



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> So I'm glad you respect the opinion of one woman. Have you told her how you regard woman that have had any kind of bad experience in their lives as incapable of being good parents?


Boy, are you imagining things! That was nowhere in my postings! Some people, who have had some bad experiences, pass those on to others. To take what I said and generalise it is manipulative, IMHO.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> You DISMISSED the view point of every women in this thread that didn't say everything would be sunshine and light if Haunted does what he is thinking about doing.


Really? Didn't realize that posts in a thread could DISMISS the view points of others - have they disappeared from the thread? No. A discussion or argument involves two points of view, not a group ganging up on one.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Her ex follows her and she doesn't agree with you...do you dismiss her opinions as nothing but rubbish because she had a bad romance?



No, she didn't have "a bad romance" - she had a manipulative, physically abusive husband whom she left when he decided that beating her up wasn't enough and that the two year old needed a beating too. I respect her opinions all the more because of it - but having been there, she has a clear eyed view of how abuse-sufferers live and react.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Does your wife or ex-wife get any input into the raising of these children? They are both divorced, are they not? And you seem to think that divorced women cannot make rational decisions.....


I don't have an ex-wife - I've only had one marriage, to the light of my life, my soulmate, my equal. We are partners in child-raising, having long discussions and making conscious decisions about how to best raise two children. She has more experience than I have, and I listen to her carefully. Her ideas are usually best.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> You spread your opinion about "women who have XYZ". Not all men react to the same thing in the same way......is it a far leap to think that women are capable of the same?
> I am one of the women posting in this thread....and you lambasted the opinions of women in this thread as not of value.


Really? Provide examples of lambasting all opinions as not of value. I just provided contrary opinions. If you find having someone disagree with so objectionable, then...well, deal with it. 

You seem to have missed my main point, which was that making a generalisation and applying it to Haunted's case, when the generalisation was based on only a few experiences, was ignoring that each situation was different. Your Mileage May Vary.



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Sure, some women don't know their ass from a hole in the ground....but you are incorrect to stereo-type them all in such a negative, incapable light.


I didn't stereotype, I argued a different point of view. 



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Once again, you didn't like the posting style of some here so you sought to discredit their words, thoughts and feelings and linked this directly to their sex...not the individuals. Oh wait, no you just immediately placed the blame for all their bad feelings and pain onto their mothers....and totally ignored the fact that their fathers LEFT THEM.....not just their mothers. Whatever Mom's reaction was, it doesn't give Dad a free ride or get out of jail free card. EACH parent is responsible for their behaviors. If dad left his wife and kids to go diddle a much younger women...then he left his wife AND HIS KIDS. HE left them...not their mother. She stayed...he didn't. Kind of simple in the eyes of a child, no matter what Mom says good or bad. See how that works?


But, Haunted is not leaving, Haunted is asking about being a long distance parent. I agree with you about leaving. Long distance parenting is different, is my point. And some kids do very well by it, which no here seemed to be acknowledging. 

The bitterness in your words when you say, "...left his wife and kids to go diddle a much younger women..." is remarkable. Or am I reading too much into such a negative description?



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> You criticized women that raise their children by themselves as bitter, incapable and bad parents...automatically. This is not the situation for all single mothers. I was raised by a single mother and I am a single mother. Take your harsh, quick, not-so-well-formed judgments elsewhere. I have known plenty of good and bad single mothers and fathers....they are not all created equal.


Exactly my point! Some are, frankly, fabulous single parents, such as my wife was for years before we met. Some others twist their children in psychological knots that require years of psychiatry. As you said earlier, "EACH parent is responsible for their behaviors." 



Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Who manipulated a child in this thread? Who manipulated anyone in this thread? Quote examples please?


As you stated before, only adults post here. There are no children present, therefore manipulation of them is impossible. But manipulation of children happens in real life, as I'm sure you're aware.


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## Rowan (Mar 12, 2009)

*breaks out the popcorn*


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## LisaInNC (Mar 12, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?
> 
> The whole mythology that 'mothers know their children best' desperately needs shattering. Mothers may do so. Fathers may do so. Sometimes, neither of them has a clue, and those children are the ones who really end up emotionally damaged. I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves. Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children. As a father, a stepfather, and someone who has worked with many children, *I have seen too much 'programming by aggrieve mother' to believe that mothers know best. *Mothers abuse children, as fathers do. Some children need to be removed from their mothers, others from their fathers. And, I'll say it again - any absence of either parent is a bad thing, and the reason for that absence makes less difference than the absence itself. BUT, it takes a village to raise a child, not JUST a mother, and children are amazingly resilient and flexible. They will take their role models where they find them - and they only get aggrieved at ages under 12 IF they are taught to be so by a bitter parent.



Now you wait a damned minute. How dare you say that all mothers do this? My childs father hasnt had squat to do with her and I could be honest and say, "honey, he really just doesnt give a shit about you", but instead I opt to stay quiet until the questions pass. I dont want her to EVER think she is not good enough because her father would rather play "daddy" to someone elses kid. 
Furthermore, if you ever include me in your bashing of single mothers again, I will personally stab your eyes out.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster (Mar 12, 2009)

hey fat hiker, why don't you...ya know...take a hike!


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## Ivy (Mar 12, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> I applaud the sentiments - though I think BigBellySSBBW is setting herself up for a fall. How soon before she resents her stepdaughter for dragging her to the UK?
> 
> The whole mythology that 'mothers know their children best' desperately needs shattering. Mothers may do so. Fathers may do so. Sometimes, neither of them has a clue, and those children are the ones who really end up emotionally damaged. *I'm sorry, but in the arguments of Ivy, elle, Cinnamitch, Tooz and yourself I hear aggrieved mothers talking through their children, not the voices of the children themselves.* Too many mothers inflict this sort of emotional damage on their children. As a father, a stepfather, and someone who has worked with many children, I have seen too much 'programming by aggrieve mother' to believe that mothers know best. Mothers abuse children, as fathers do. Some children need to be removed from their mothers, others from their fathers. And, I'll say it again - any absence of either parent is a bad thing, and the reason for that absence makes less difference than the absence itself. BUT, it takes a village to raise a child, not JUST a mother, and children are amazingly resilient and flexible. They will take their role models where they find them - and they only get aggrieved at ages under 12 IF they are taught to be so by a bitter parent.



i'm way late to respond to this. i chose to not read anything else in this thread because the original post had me so upset about my own relationship with my father that i didn't think i needed to read any more of this thread as it would only upset me.

in anycase, no. you're hearing MY voice, the child whose father fucked up and didn't love her enough to put her before himself and his new girlfriend, not the voice of my mother. 

also, just because my dad screwed up doesn't mean i didn't have "a village" raising me. i had grandparents, a great grandmother, aunts and uncles and family friends who all helped to raise me and shape me. those people, as wonderful as they are, do not make up for a shitty dad.


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## Surlysomething (Mar 12, 2009)

LisaInNC said:


> Now you wait a damned minute. How dare you say that all mothers do this? My childs father hasnt had squat to do with her and I could be honest and say, "honey, he really just doesnt give a shit about you", but instead I opt to stay quiet until the questions pass. I dont want her to EVER think she is not good enough because her father would rather play "daddy" to someone elses kid.
> Furthermore, if you ever include me in your bashing of single mothers again, I will personally stab your eyes out.



I don't see where he said ALL MOTHERS. Everyone's experience is totally different and they're molded by that, just like you are to yours.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 12, 2009)

Surlysomething said:


> I don't see where he said ALL MOTHERS. Everyone's experience is totally different and they're molded by that, just like you are to yours.



It was not that he used the words "all mothers" but he said that he "heard" the voices of aggrieved mothers when women like Ivy, Elle, Tooz, and me were posting. As Ivy pointed out above, that is totally insulting to the _adult females_ who are speaking about their own experiences and feelings and totally insulting to the single moms who have made a point of not bad mouthing their childrens' fathers. He insinuated that whatever we women have to say about our experience that it must come from an "aggrieved" mother. He says this without knowing any of us or any of the single moms who have posted.


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## Surlysomething (Mar 12, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> It was not that he used the words "all mothers" but he said that he "heard" the voices of aggrieved mothers when women like Ivy, Elle, Tooz, and me were posting. As Ivy pointed out above, that is totally insulting to the _adult females_ who are speaking about their own experiences and feelings and totally insulting to the single moms who have made a point of not bad mouthing their childrens' fathers. He insinuated that whatever we women have to say about our experience that it must come from an "aggrieved" mother. He says this without knowing any of us or any of the single moms who have posted.




I'm replying to her version of what he said, that's all.


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## mergirl (Mar 13, 2009)

God. i just wrote a huge post here. Pressed something and it dissapeared. Maby it was a sign from the universe not to send it. 
Maby i will try again later. hmmm


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## mergirl (Mar 13, 2009)

(hmm i found this again in another tab-still trying to work out my new lappertopper)

I think some of fat hikers point were really valid and important to consider but because he also said some things that have obvously rubbed people up the wrong way his whole post has been dismissed or lost in the fighting cloud. 
I agree that the 'mother knows best' myth is one which should be treated with some trepidation. Having a good friend who works in social work they can testify that this really is sometimes not the case. Obviously, the cases which come to the attention of the social work department are extreme (though not as uncommon as you might think) but even just the decisions that certain mothers make can also seriously affect the child. People dont generally get handed out 'how to be a good parent books' when they pop one out (though i think they should). It does take a village to raise a child and obviously the more love, support and learning the child has from friends and family the better.
I think in Haunteds case things are different than they are for a lot of people in the way that if he decided to move, he would not be 'abandoning' his child. Five year olds understand a lot more that we give them credit for and if explained properly she will be able to take this on board. Her dad needs to move, but instead of seeing him for only a short time at weekends she will get to spend longer holidays with him. This coupled with the fact she knows she can, call him any time day or night and that he will be there to listen to her and reasure her would also help. I know its not ideal. No-one plans to marry someone and fall out of love just as you dont plan who you fall in love with. Think of the fathers who have children by different people who have moved to different places. There HAS to be a choice as to which child to be closest to. Think of fathers who HAVE to work away from home and hardly ever get to see their families-This of course isnt ideal but they never get a hard time because they are 'providing' for their family. I dont see this situation as any different. If someone is providing financial and as much emotional support as they can why can this not be enough?. 
I know its hard to think rationally when you have felt abandonment issues yourself but these are seperate issues and for every one person who has felt 'abandonment' another wont, Especially, as i said the parent makes the transition as easy as possible for the child by means of explaination, honouring promises made, and by always being available via phone and be willing to return if they are really needed. 
Of course its going to be a difficult decision but i imagine having a happy father that you get to see for longer periods after a longer time would be preferable to seeing a miserable father for a while every second weekend.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 13, 2009)

Fathiker rubbed many posters the wrong way because his comments were directly insulting. He claimed that posts by women who had been in Haunted's daughter's situation were really "the voices of aggrieved mothers". 

He insulted the mothering practices not only of _our_ mothers but also of the single mothers on this board. As i posted, my own mother made a very clear effort to not badmouth my dad to me; LisainNC said she has done the same thing. So it was amazingly rude to say that he's "seen enough to know it happens" that women all negatively influence their children out of their own grief at being left. This is particularly insulting when he can't possibly know the circumstances of everyone's divorce. In some cases, the women maybe were the ones doing the leaving or the divorce was amicable or one partner came out as gay. We don't know.

He went on to insult BigBellySSBBW by saying "it was just a matter of time" before she started resenting her stepchild, even though Donni said she would never ever feel like that and in fact her personal values are that children should always come first. She even went on to say that it pains her to have seen her stepson not have a traditional family structure.

All any of us can do is say what our own experiences have been. Nobody can say to Haunted "With 100% certainty, here is how your situation will turn out."


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## mergirl (Mar 13, 2009)

yeah, i can see why he pissed people off. I also think he made a couple of good points. I think its good that you are all sharing your experiences because at the end of the day that is what haunted asked you all to do. Though, haunted wouldnt be 'abandoning' his daughter, he would be in regular contact with her. I can see why abandonment without explaination would be a horrific experience for anyone..this isnt whats happening here though in this specific situation. 
I didnt like what he said to Donni at all..it was kinna weird and a lot of shit because he totally doesnt know her or her situation.. THAT i did find weird and uncalled for.


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Mar 13, 2009)

fat hiker said:


> If they were presented as opinions, sure. "Haunted, I don't think should" is an opinion. "DON't" is ordering someone about.
> 
> 
> Boy, are you imagining things! That was nowhere in my postings! Some people, who have had some bad experiences, pass those on to others. To take what I said and generalise it is manipulative, IMHO.
> ...



Okay, I got you now. 
*You did NOT make it about single mothers in general
* you have a sparkling perfect life so you get to sit on a throne of judgment
* your mother is cream of the crop
* your wife's opinion is of value cause you KNOW some guy really abused her....while other upset women in the world probably just made that shit up
* nothing father's do wrong is really wrong...it's only wrong because mother said it was wrong and she was wrong to say it was wrong
*you were gang-banged in this thread 
*Haunted was gang banged in this thread
* Not you, but *I*, made generalized statements about the opposite sex and hence, YOU were manipulated 
*My father must have left my mother, and myself, for another woman because I don't find it "okay" for a person to follow the whim of their dick without care for the consequences
* I totally imagined you said anything negative about mothers in a generalized way

You win 



Rowan said:


> *breaks out the popcorn*



You want me to spank you, don't you? :batting:





LoveBHMS said:


> Fathiker rubbed many posters the wrong way because his comments were directly insulting. He claimed that posts by women who had been in Haunted's daughter's situation were really "the voices of aggrieved mothers".
> 
> He insulted the mothering practices not only of _our_ mothers but also of the single mothers on this board. As i posted, my own mother made a very clear effort to not badmouth my dad to me; LisainNC said she has done the same thing. So it was amazingly rude to say that he's "seen enough to know it happens" that women all negatively influence their children out of their own grief at being left. This is particularly insulting when he can't possibly know the circumstances of everyone's divorce. In some cases, the women maybe were the ones doing the leaving or the divorce was amicable or one partner came out as gay. We don't know.
> 
> He went on to insult BigBellySSBBW by saying "it was just a matter of time" before she started resenting her stepchild, even though Donni said she would never ever feel like that and in fact her personal values are that children should always come first. She even went on to say that it pains her to have seen her stepson not have a traditional family structure.


Yep, he pretty much puts the blame of hurt, angry children that grow into hurt, angry adults squarely on the shoulders of Mom. He left out Dad for some odd reason.....

Funny, we started talking about Dads because Haunted IS a Dad. I mentioned my anger towards my Mom in my very first post. No one wanted to "attack all Dads and make Mom a Saint".....people just shared their hurt and perceptions. Wow......


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## fat hiker (Mar 19, 2009)

BigBellySSBBW said:


> hey fat hiker, why don't you...ya know...take a hike!



I did...how refreshing, too. Lots of kids and adults out in the late winter sunshine, enjoying the woods trails nearby.


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## Haunted (Jun 8, 2009)

i'm reopening this thread cause i need your thoughts, and prayers. things are happening, she has a hearing on friday, i will be there with her supporting her and showing the court i am ready and willing to support her and the kids, and if all goes well i wont need to leave my daughter. 

i understand there are people out there with bigger problems. but this one is very important to us and for the welfare of her kids. if you could all just keep us in your thoughts, prayers or fingers crossed. everything comes down to fri morning.


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## Cors (Jun 8, 2009)

Hope things work out for you and Misty, Haunted. Hang in there!


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## Green Eyed Fairy (Jun 8, 2009)

Good Luck! I hope this ends up with everyone being together and living happily ever after


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## mergirl (Jun 9, 2009)

Good luck. I hope everything works out for you beautiful people.


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