# Who is and isn't worthy of a hospital bed/medical care.



## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 6, 2020)

Sorry if this post is in the wrong place -- I didn't know where else to put it. This post also has nothing to do with the virus, as the person to whom I am referring made the video I am going to describe before it hit.

Anyway, I wanted to post about something that has been bugging me a bit and see what others think. There is a semi-popular fitness expert on YouTube I won't name who makes videos about obesity. In one particular video, he basically said that it's okay if you want to lie to yourself about being healthy if you're obese, save for the fact that you could potentially be taking a hospital bed away from someone who, say, just happens to be elderly.

He was saying -- or my interpretation of what he was saying -- was that people who cause their own health issues are not worthy of medical care and it's not fair they are taking up hospital beds when others, who got sick through no fault of their own, go without. If two people urgently needed the last hospital bed available and one was obese and the other not or the other fit and otherwise healthy or pretty much not at fault in his eyes, he'd let the obese one die if he was the decider.

He (and another semi-popular fitness expert I won't name) have a "no excuses" mentality and think it's pretty much inexcusable to be fat. If they ruled the world, they'd do their best to mandate people be as healthy as the can possibly be -- they said that obesity is bad for the economy.

Maybe most or all of what these guys say is true -- I certainly don't have a response to the "hospital bed" part of the first guy's argument.

Care to share your thoughts?


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## op user (Jun 6, 2020)

A couple of random points: he is just a fitness expert not a physician with some medical ethics background so be his opinion is based on subjective not objective signs. 

Why the obese and non obese individual ended up needing a bed. If the obese was (a currently popular issue) was attacked during the social upset what's fat had to do with his obesity and not be entitled in a bed.

Do they both pay regularly health contributions: if the obese person pays and the fit person doesn't the issue is solved. .
Final for now: are we sure that a fit person does not have a self-induced health issue like abused body?


Just to get the ball going - because I know how bad is not to have answers on a thread.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 6, 2020)

op user said:


> A couple of random points: he is just a fitness expert not a physician with some medical ethics background so be his opinion is based on subjective not objective signs.
> 
> Why the obese and non obese individual ended up needing a bed. If the obese was (a currently popular issue) was attacked during the social upset what's fat had to do with his obesity and not be entitled in a bed.
> 
> ...




AFAIK, neither of them are doctors, but what they say -- much, at least -- seems to make sense. The first guy has said that the human body isn't meant to carry so much excess weight or fat. He didn't specify when that weight begins but I am guessing it's at least at the 250-pound mark, minimum. Now, height is important here too -- a 7-foot person at 250 pounds might be okay.


"Why the obese and non obese individual ended up needing a bed. If the obese was (a currently popular issue) was attacked during the social upset what's fat had to do with his obesity and not be entitled in a bed."

I think he means it for when they get ill, when they cause it themselves.

2. Have not heard either of them -- or anyone else in response to them -- address the "fat people pay taxes too" argument.

3. Yeah, what about fit people who abuse alcohol or hard drugs? Do they exist? If so, do they get a pass because they are otherwise healthy?


These guys pride themselves on "facts over feelings."


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## DazzlingAnna (Jun 6, 2020)

I'd like to share some of my thoughts on this.

There are serious medical issues that occur on obese people but also on non-obese people. (speaking from experience by myself and family)
Who is going to judge over a person in those cases?

In my opinion medical services are made for everyone. And if a decision is made by weight about getting this treatment or not - this is discrimination.
In worst case with deadly consequences.

If a decision would be made on the obese/non-obese criteria I would start questioning other incidents that would require medical treatment.
No matter if someone is obese or not:
Why is it fair then to help someone to recover e.g. from a broken leg or worse because of free-climbing, skiing or whatever runs a risk for serious injuries? Or heavy drinking habbits or smoking?

To point out: I don't say that I would make those decisions or differences. Everybody should get help and care whenever needed.

***
off topic...
If I come across those videos, fat-shaming-comments on articles online or even people in real life I usually try to deal with them in a neutral way. (difficult sometimes)
But honestly I try to avoid those things and people. I cannot change those people's opinions - why should I waste my time.
The one thing that I dislike the most: The accusation I would lie to myself about being happy, healthy, living a good life as a highly obese person.
What made me unhappy for many, many years? Basicially people who were telling me that I am not ok how I am, how I look. (And they used worse than saying "not ok" to let me know.)

***

Anyway,
I have a problem with the connotation that generally speaking obese people would not be healthy, happy, and it would be their own fault and that's why they don't deserve medical treatment.


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## DragonFly (Jun 6, 2020)

My opinion straight up is that the people who devalue a life because that life is in a fat body, is a fat-phobic uneducated inhuman person. So the underweight, tanned person with 0%. Body fat gets skin cancer. From this guys attitude then it is the person’s fault. This kind of pseudo scientific presentation is why it is coming through YouTube!


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 6, 2020)

DragonFly said:


> My opinion straight up is that the people who devalue a life because that life is in a fat body, is a fat-phobic uneducated inhuman person. So the underweight, tanned person with 0%. Body fat gets skin cancer. From this guys attitude then it is the person’s fault. This kind of pseudo scientific presentation is why it is coming through YouTube!




This man is proudly fatphobic -- not sure it means what he thinks it does...or maybe he does and does not care. He claims to use only logic to prove his points. Nearly all comments on both of these guys' videos are on their side. Some hurt, as a fat person trying to find love. Some people were saying that they'd never be with a fat woman because she'd be a bad example to any children they'd have. Others were saying you cannot be fat and beautiful because healthy bodies are beautiful -- not their exact wording but I am sure you get the message; they gave a scientific explanation. 

Watching his and the other man's videos make me feel less worthy, like maybe I don't deserve medical care or someone who does take care of themselves should be chosen to be saved over me if a lack of hospital beds became a reality because, admittedly, I am not healthy -- I don't exercise and eat mostly junk food. 

I could be misinterpreting what they say, so please forgive me if I am wrong. He claims that he he says are facts and often looks into the camera and says that you WILL die if you are obese, if not now then eventually.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 6, 2020)

DragonFly said:


> My opinion straight up is that the people who devalue a life because that life is in a fat body, is a fat-phobic uneducated inhuman person. So the underweight, tanned person with 0%. Body fat gets skin cancer. From this guys attitude then it is the person’s fault. This kind of pseudo scientific presentation is why it is coming through YouTube!



They are all about personal responsibility.


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## DazzlingAnna (Jun 6, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> This man is proudly fatphobic -- not sure it means what he thinks it does...or maybe he does and does not care. He claims to use only logic to prove his points. Nearly all comments on both of these guys' videos are on their side. Some hurt, as a fat person trying to find love. Some people were saying that they'd never be with a fat woman because she'd be a bad example to any children they'd have. Others were saying you cannot be fat and beautiful because healthy bodies are beautiful -- not their exact wording but I am sure you get the message; they gave a scientific explanation.
> 
> Watching his and the other man's videos make me feel less worthy, like maybe I don't deserve medical care or someone who does take care of themselves should be chosen to be saved over me if a lack of hospital beds became a reality because, admittedly, I am not healthy -- I don't exercise and eat mostly junk food.
> 
> I could be misinterpreting what they say, so please forgive me if I am wrong. He claims that he he says are facts and often looks into the camera and says that you WILL die if you are obese, if not now then eventually.


If it hurts your feelings, makes you feeling less worthy - 
1st of all - you are not less worthy than any other person - no matter what shape, size, age, race,... 

And claiming that he's telling facts is useless unless there are sources of qualified scientific researches. I bet there aren't any of those.

And another fact: everybody will die. If not now then eventually.

Don't get me wrong, living as an obese person I am convinced will shorten my life. I am aware that I won't reach a certain age as this seems to be common in my family. And being obese might be one of a the reasons. But also true: all of my 1st grade relatives that have passed away within the last years suffered from problems that could have hit everyone (cancer, sepsis, pulmonary embolism; the only thin person had dramatic diabetic problems)

@FatBarbieDoll : if this making you feel bad - don't watch or read those comments. Or only in small doses. That's my advice.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jun 6, 2020)

DazzlingAnna said:


> And claiming that he's telling facts is useless unless there are sources of qualified scientific researches. I bet there aren't any of those.


There's at least one. In the online archive of the Journal of the American Medical Association for January 2013, there's a study by Flegal et al. on mortality rates for people with different Body Mass Indexes. It's actually a meta-study, based on an analysis of over 700 studies on the subject, which involved over 2000 subjects. The results were that people classed as moderately obese (BMI 30-34) had the same mortality rate at those with an "ideal" BMI (18 1/2 -24). The "overweight" group, however (BMI 25=29), had a mortality rate that was 1/10th that of the other groups.


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## DazzlingAnna (Jun 6, 2020)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> There's at least one. In the online archive of the Journal of the American Medical Association for January 2013, there's a study by Flegal et al. on mortality rates for people with different Body Mass Indexes. It's actually a meta-study, based on an analysis of over 700 studies on the subject, which involved over 2000 subjects. The results were that people classed as moderately obese (BMI 30-34) had the same mortality rate at those with an "ideal" BMI (18 1/2 -24). The "overweight" group, however (BMI 25=29), had a mortality rate that was 1/10th that of the other groups.


Of course there are studies about obesity that have results that it causes a higher risk for several medical issues. 
But these pretentious reports I was referring to are usually not (or rarely) based on those researches.


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## op user (Jun 6, 2020)

Some more random thoughts:

These guys sell "fitness" hence they need to target a new market: if they make fat people feel bad about themselves they have a new customers. 

For western democracies we have an agreement to offer to the people living in a country an acceptable level of services (education, civil protection, health etc) without any significant exceptions - not a always a good thing but we have it. If a modification on these policy is to be made we need to do based on a government decision based on solid scientific evidence - not on some you-tubers with limited education.

I am covered with most responses.

@Barbsjw @DazzlingAnna regarding people stating bad things for obese individuals: Thank them for their opinion and state openly you are going to ignore it.


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## Barbsjw (Jun 6, 2020)

@op user this is the 1st I'm seeing this thread. What are you referring to with regards to me?


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## op user (Jun 6, 2020)

@Barbsjw I was referring mainly to people making bad comments about obese individuals. Apologies it doesn't fit well.


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## Barbsjw (Jun 6, 2020)

Ah @op user thanks for explaining. I asked because I hadn't posted to the thread and wondered what you were referring to.


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## Joker (Jun 7, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> Sorry if this post is in the wrong place -- I didn't know where else to put it. This post also has nothing to do with the virus, as the person to whom I am referring made the video I am going to describe before it hit.
> 
> Anyway, I wanted to post about something that has been bugging me a bit and see what others think. There is a semi-popular fitness expert on YouTube I won't name who makes videos about obesity. In one particular video, he basically said that it's okay if you want to lie to yourself about being healthy if you're obese, save for the fact that you could potentially be taking a hospital bed away from someone who, say, just happens to be elderly.
> 
> ...


I never saw any of that. I guess it is just that if you are not of his army then you need to be ready to join it. Other than that I gave my bed up once in a VA hospital for a guy who needed it more. I got another bed a few days later. In the meantime I was sleeping in the bed of a truck in the parking garage. All people need care. It is country to country how you get it.


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## Shotha (Jun 7, 2020)

I very much get the impression that in this thread people are searching for was of dealing with people, who think that fat people are less deserving than other people, in particular when it comes to medical care. We can deal with it through counter arguments and through managing our feelings about fatphobia.

I don't believe in obesity. I think that it is an ill-conceived idea. Some of us are fat and others thin, in varying degrees. The point at which fat people are deemed obese is arbitrarily set. Neither weight nor BMI give an accurate way of assessing how fat a person is. I have known several people with a BMI over 30, who are not obese. They are chunky because of the amount of muscle that they have. If a patient needs to lose weight, "obesity" is not a helpful term for the doctor to use, as it can make the patient panic, which only makes weight loss all the more difficult.

It is judgmental to say that a person's obesity is their own fault. It fails to take into account genetics, medical reasons and socio-economic factors. Some of us have a propensity towards weight gain for genetic reasons. Sometimes this runs in families or it can affect larger population groups in humans and other animals for historical reasons. Some of us tend to put on weight for medical reasons. I tend to put on weight because of a medication that I have to take. My doctor doesn't talk about my weight gain, because he doesn't want it to become an excuse for not taking the medication. Poverty tends to lead to weight gain partly because poor people can't afford lean meat and so tend to have to buy cheap meat products containing more fat. The way that these Youtubers fail to take such factors into account in their blanket condemnation of "obese people" shows that their motives are far removed from medicine. It shows up their fatphobia.

The medical, pharmaceutical, diet and fitness industries have a vested interest in persuading us that there are things wrong with us that we should pay them to fix. The use of highly emotive terms like "obese" and "overweight" are used to play upon our perceptions of ourselves, a further ploy to persuade us to buy their products and services.

It has been mentioned above in this thread that the outcome for obese patients in many circumstances is better than for more average patients. Fat people also tend to sustain less damage from falls than thin people do. We bounce better.

Apart from the medical aspects of this issue, there are also social issues associated with it. What about the "obese" mother or father? Should they just be left to die because of their shape and size? Should their children be orphaned because of their parents' shape or size? I think not.

These Youtubers do not have degrees in medicine. So, we should not listen to their opinions about us. We should not let their comments lower our self-esteem.


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## Sonic Purity (Jun 7, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> They are all about personal responsibility.



So am i. For purposes of identification, i’m a Libertarian, which at times is a party which denotes itself as The Party of Personal Responsibility. And i’m an FA, and a believer in science (important: with _no_ medical training). Here’s what i think….



FatBarbieDoll said:


> There is a semi-popular fitness expert on YouTube I won't name who makes videos about obesity. […] He was saying -- or my interpretation of what he was saying -- was that people who cause their own health issues are not worthy of medical care and it's not fair they are taking up hospital beds when others, who got sick through no fault of their own, go without. […]
> He [… has] a "no excuses" mentality and think it's pretty much inexcusable to be fat. If they ruled the world, they'd do their best to mandate people be as healthy as the can possibly be -- they said that obesity is bad for the economy.
> 
> Maybe most or all of what these guys say is true -- I certainly don't have a response to the "hospital bed" part of the first guy's argument.



_Pfffft_ True?! They’re as biased and willfully ignorant as the most ardent over-the-top self-centered psychopathic extreme feedist (the classic Evil Feedist stereotype, 100% ignoring the humanity of the feedee “love interest”)!

Others here have already covered how out-of-control over-the-top inhumane those (il)logical facts _beliefs_ are.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> AFAIK, neither of them are doctors, but what they say -- much, at least -- seems to make sense.



They and all of us are human. No human is correct all the time. It is entirely possible to take the useful information from them and personally benefit from it without taking the bulls** and/or actual facts that are to you personally unhelpful.

This comes up for me all the time with the Life Extension Foundation, which is one of my main sources for health information and nutritional supplements. Their information and supplements have literally kept me alive and far healthier than i otherwise would have been. They’re also fat phobic, and can very likely outdo these fitness experts trotting out research paper after paper about how fat is medically awful in addition to “unsightly” (their preferred favorite word to toss out). They ignore the other equally-qualified scientific studies (which i see on NAAFA newsletters and posts on other sites in our fatlovesex community) where fatness is either neutral or positive, because those do not suit their world view.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> The first guy has said that the human body isn't meant to carry so much excess weight or fat. He didn't specify when that weight begins but I am guessing it's at least at the 250-pound mark, minimum.
> […]
> These guys pride themselves on "facts over feelings."



So do i. But if one’s deeply-buried _feelings_ cause them to overlook scientific _research and facts_ which happen to contradict their world view, are they truly walking the walk? Or are they deluding themselves into claiming the mantle of arrogant judgmental superiority?

Can’t find it right now, but i’ve been reading generation-old (±20 years) issues of Science News, “the newsmagazine of science”. One article discussed research around ancient human ancestor remains of a surprisingly (to the researchers) stocky build. It was fun watching the article’s author dance around using the word “fat”, but it basically amounted to some humanoid ancestors physically evolved to carry a lot of weight. Did they all die out? Or is it like the lie i was told growing up that Indians (as in: indigenous natives of what is now called North America) no longer existed.

_Much_ more to write about science and research, below.

_Everything_ @Shotha wrote. A few additional comments:


Shotha said:


> I don't believe in obesity. I think that it is an ill-conceived idea.



It’s the medicalization of fatness, for the purpose of turning a natural condition into a disease “needing a cure”! (as you basically wrote further below in your post)



Shotha said:


> It is judgmental to say that a person's obesity is their own fault. It fails to take into account genetics, medical reasons and socio-economic factors.



Beyond judgmental, it’s factually inaccurate in many, many cases. Do these fitness experts even know about the intestinal microbiome, and how _profoundly_ that affects what humans eat and how their bodies process it? Here’s one example:

Woman becomes obese after fecal transplant from overweight donor (UPI report) excerpt:


> According to a new report published in the journal Open Forum Infectious Diseases, a woman who had always been of a healthy weight quickly became obese in the wake of a fecal transplant from an overweight donor.
> 
> Prior to the woman's 2011 fecal transplant, she weighed 136 pounds and registered a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 26. To treat ongoing CDI-related diarrhea problems, the woman received a fecal transplant from her overweight but healthy daughter, via colonoscopy. Sixteen months later and the woman was clinically obese, weighing 170 pounds with a BMI of 33. Her weight gain continued despite a medically supervised liquid protein diet and exercise regimen.





Shotha said:


> It has been mentioned above in this thread that the outcome for obese patients in many circumstances is better than for more average patients. Fat people also tend to sustain less damage from falls than thin people do. We bounce better.



There’s even more, and i don’t have room for it in this post.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> This man is proudly fatphobic -- not sure it means what he thinks it does...or maybe he does and does not care. He claims to use only logic to prove his points. Nearly all comments on both of these guys' videos are on their side. Some hurt, as a fat person trying to find love. Some people were saying that they'd never be with a fat woman because she'd be a bad example to any children they'd have. Others were saying you cannot be fat and beautiful because healthy bodies are beautiful -- not their exact wording but I am sure you get the message; they gave a scientific explanation.



_Pffft!_ I fart in the face of their (selective) scientific explanation! Healthy bodies come in all sizes, shapes, consistencies, colors, and other attributes. So do unhealthy ones. Health and these other attributes are orthogonal.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> Watching his and the other man's videos make me feel less worthy, like maybe I don't deserve medical care or someone who does take care of themselves should be chosen to be saved over me if a lack of hospital beds became a reality because, admittedly, I am not healthy -- I don't exercise and eat mostly junk food.
> 
> I could be misinterpreting what they say, so please forgive me if I am wrong. He claims that he he says are facts and often looks into the camera and says that you WILL die if you are obese, if not now then eventually.



@FatBarbieDoll: i applaud your fearless fact-finding truth seeking, with your rational mind open to confronting scientific reality. Here’s the thing: like me, these video peeps you’re watching are well outside their range of expertise. I’m biased too, but please let your ruthlessly honest rational mind contemplate the following:

*We Don’t Know* the true science behind fatness and illness yet

The science is being performed by fallible humans. Doing their best, true. Seeking truth with ruthless honesty, we hope. Still, there is the human tendency to most easily find that for which one is looking.

For nearly everyone reading this, when we were younger, Pluto was a planet. Now it’s not. New information was learned; new discoveries made. The facts where incontrovertible: *The science changed*.

When i was diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease in 1997, i was told by my doctor that there was no connection whatsoever between the intestinal cramping i was having and my emotional state—_none, zero_—even though my body and mind told me otherwise.

Fast forward several decades: it’s now readily admitted by all but the most conservative practitioners that there’s a _strong_ gut-(head) brain connection, via the vagus nerve amongst possibly other pathways. _Minds opened: the science changed_ (and my instincts and literal gut feelings were well ahead of the curve).

Trust your body, and all of your instincts and being—everyone, and especially OP @FatBarbieDoll. _You are more of an expert on your own body than anyone else who has or will ever live_. Science and medicine and facts (as we currently know them) are important; so are your own instincts, thoughts, and feelings.

I personally know from vast life-long direct experience that mental and physical health are inseparable. One of the major failings of the orthodox medical system in most “western” nations is treating mental and physical health as wholly disparate entities (or nearly so).

[Continues in the next post]


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## Sonic Purity (Jun 7, 2020)

Take the good things (if any) from those videos in terms of exercise or whatever else they’re doing that first drew you there and resonates with your mind, body, and spirit. Totally ignore the rest.

You were Born Worthy of love of every kind, total respect, civility, and full medical care. You Remain Worthy of all these things _no matter what you are or are not eating and/or doing or not doing for exercise_. (Scarcity and paying for things are in the realm of economics: a separate subject.)

Look at yourself in the mirror, please. Full body is preferred, but do what you easily can. Especially @FatBarbieDoll, but truly anyone carrying significant weight (from fat, muscle, bone, and/or anything else—any weight), especially any of you struggling with even vestiges of big body shame. Do you see the athlete looking back at you? The extreme athlete, if you’re supersized?

The fact that you made it to a mirror means that you’re mobile, even if you made it there slowly, possibly out of breath, maybe in some pain. If you’re moving, physics tells us that you’re doing work—the physical definition of work. *You are a weight lifter.* Unlike those wimpy jocks at the gym who work out for awhile then set their weights down, some of whom go parade around and show off their muscular physique, because you’re such an awesome extreme athlete, you carry your weight(s) around 24/7/365 (and change). Is it your fault that your attached weight(s) happen to simultaneously be so sensual and sexy, in addition to the source of your athleticism? I think not!

Next time you feel shame or sad or depressed that you’re not exercising anywhere near as much as the experts claim everyone must, do the math. Chances are excellent that you are exercising at least as much: carrying *far* more weight over a shorter distance, for the same mathematical amount of physical work!

You don’t have to be as arrogant as the show-off weight lifters who frequent gyms (though it’s still a free enough world that you can if you want). Consider existing in pride and self-respect for who and what you are, whether you’re currently in motion or currently sitting comfortably enjoying something that makes these fitness folks’ faces melt (and _do_ enjoy it!), or whatever else you may be doing.

Applauding you all, you amazing athletes!


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 8, 2020)

Sonic Purity said:


> So am i. For purposes of identification, i’m a Libertarian, which at times is a party which denotes itself as The Party of Personal Responsibility. And i’m an FA, and a believer in science (important: with _no_ medical training). Here’s what i think….
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thank you for taking the time to type out such a response. I will try my best to respond. I do believe in obesity myself, unlike Shotha -- there is no way someone can be, say, 600 pounds and healthy, right? Why do other countries have so few fat people?

I have seen people 500+ plus and they can barely walk, if at all. Their limbs are discolored and even basic tasks are an ordeal.

I recall one woman saying that washing her hair tired her out, as it was too much to keep her arms up to complete the task.

One thing these guys say that I will agree with is -- or is hard to not believe -- is that the human body isn't meant to carry so much excess weight or fat. I don't recall them saying what amount, exactly, but I am guessing that starts from over 200 pounds. It surely must wear on the joints. 

I wish I knew what "a lot of weight" was for those ancestors. How could they have been obese anyway? Wouldn't they have had to travel for food and go without often? I look at videos of the modern day isolated tribes and no one in their groups are obese. 

These guys claim that people/Americans have no clue about proper nutrition. One admits that diets don't work but seems to think he as the solution. IDK. I am trying to be as accurate as possible here because I only care about the truth.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 8, 2020)

Sonic Purity said:


> Take the good things (if any) from those videos in terms of exercise or whatever else they’re doing that first drew you there and resonates with your mind, body, and spirit. Totally ignore the rest.
> 
> You were Born Worthy of love of every kind, total respect, civility, and full medical care. You Remain Worthy of all these things _no matter what you are or are not eating and/or doing or not doing for exercise_. (Scarcity and paying for things are in the realm of economics: a separate subject.)
> 
> ...




One guy says that he has trained many obese people and they "just can't move." To be fair and honest, though, I really don't exercise. It's minimal at best -- going up and down the stairs maybe 2-4 times a day and to and from the car, living room and kitchen. LOL!


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## Sonic Purity (Jun 8, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> Thank you for taking the time to type out such a response. I will try my best to respond.



Gladly! I’m very much enjoying this conversation: an opportunity to have a calm, rational, factual discussion, exploring different viewpoints.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> I do believe in obesity myself, unlike Shotha -- there is no way someone can be, say, 600 pounds and healthy, right?



Right there on your first point, we run into a problem: what is the definition of healthy? Health is a continuum, not a binary, and different people (experts and non-experts) draw different demarcation lines for where their take on “healthy” ends and “unhealthy” starts.

I do not have a precise definition of “healthy” even for myself in my own mind—just vague generalizations. Like many people when i see people moving around playing or dancing or running, i tend to think “healthy”, and if they’re having trouble moving, i tend to think “unhealthy”. I believe these thoughts of mine are imprecise, biased, and ableist. This is its whole own long discussion which we can get into if you want. My example is mobility as a proxy for health, which is problematic in several ways at least, not the least of which being that there are so many other dimensions to existence.

There are quite a number of people 600+ pounds in our community who are _happy_ (via self-reports). I’ve not had the opportunity to personally ask them if they believe they’re healthy (which would have to be by their definition). Orthodox medicine is as biased as i am, except in an opposing polarity, so they may claim that categorically it is not possible to weigh that much and be healthy. I stridently disagree. Common?: maybe not. Possible?: _absolutely_.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> Why do other countries have so few fat people?



Differences in the specific nature of available foods. Cultural cuisine factors. What i’ve seen as a sweeping generalization is that countries/areas which adopt a 20th. century-style “western” diet and especially an American diet and even more so with actual American food being imported tend to have growth or even an explosion in what i call greater fatness and you may prefer to call obesity.

Much of the manufactured American food tends to be particularly unhealthy, which i know from direct personal experience in ways other than fatness. Effects in terms of people’s fatness are well documented. Hormones, processing—many things.

Culturally, many Americans subscribe to the “I’ll do whatever the hell I want!” philosophy, most definitely in terms of eating. Orthodox U.S. medicine tends to codependently (my opinion) abet this behavior: “Sure! Eat whatever you want and take these pills if you have any problems”. I learned the lesson long ago taught by many other cultures around the world: food is medicine, medicine is food. Whatever the body absorbs is both at the same time: food, liquids, air, pollutants, etc.

We’re all a wildly uncontrolled science experiment: living in a world bursting with natural and human-made chemicals used for manufacturing, food processing, packaging, and much more. I don’t even know what-all exactly happens between when a chicken is slaughtered and shows up in that nice package of ground chicken at my local market. Far too many variables to track, and no one’s tracking much of anything that i know of.

Research and science does happen, and sometimes i even have the saved articles filed away properly [where’s my dunce cap smiley?]. Samples of intriguing titles from some of the ones on paper:

All from Science News, early 2000s:

Gene variations police the storage of fat (vol. 159, 2 June 2001, p. 342)

Genetically Driven: Mutation shows up in binge eaters (vol. 163, 22 March 2003, p. 179)

Calcium may become a dieter’s best friend (discusses calcium channel opening, which some scientists claim is a factor with millimeter wave R.F., which is the science being argued behind the EMF exposure outrage, which gets hyperbolized and extrapolated to where people tear or burn down 5G towers. But that’s a separate topic)(vol. 157, 29 April 2000, p. 277)

Virus boosts fat in chickens and mice (vol. 158, 5 August 2000, p. 87)

Then there’s the Wall Street Journal of Tuesday 18 November 2014, section D starting on page 1: In the Gut: The Mix of Bacteria Can Affect Your Weight



FatBarbieDoll said:


> I have seen people 500+ plus and they can barely walk, if at all. Their limbs are discolored and even basic tasks are an ordeal.
> 
> I recall one woman saying that washing her hair tired her out, as it was too much to keep her arms up to complete the task.



I’ve had the great honor of meeting and starting to get to know several people (mostly women, in my case) in or very, very near that category. It was in a party setting, where there were many opportunities to watch them walk, sit, stand, get up, sit down, and otherwise move around or not move around. One or two moved as easily as i do (and i’m pretty energetic)—most impressive. The majority moved more slowly and waddled, which would be expected, with all the weight they’re carrying which i’m not. Some had exposed legs, others did not. One or two used assistants to help them move, from what i could see more for guidance from objects they could not see around themselves than motive power (which they themselves provided). None of those with exposed legs showed discoloration which caught my notice, nor did i notice such things on their arms. Some of those wearing pants happen to be famous models in the fatlovesex community, so we can all see from their free photos that in general for most of them they lack obvious limb skin discoloration (and is discoloration necessarily a bad thing, depending on specifics? Sun tanning is skin discoloration after all).

Have i seen other large supersized people as you describe them?: absolutely yes. I know one personally, at acquaintance level. I’ve been over to her house with my housemate, the two of us occasionally helping her out. Her mobility is marginal, she’s in a lot of pain. She’s also a classic example of someone who is going to eat whatever she wants all the time dammit!, even when specifically told by her doctor(s) who know her and her medical history and situation _don’t do that!_ There are basic, simple, easy, low-impact exercises she could do like sitting in her chair and flexing her feet forward and backward that would help, and she doesn’t even do those. Her body, her life, her choices, and i respect those, painful as it is to witness the visible external results. I can only hope that maybe deep inside she has some secret internal joy or pride or other positive experience that makes her choices worth it to her.

Beware sweeping generalizations: even if a majority of 500+ pound people exist as you describe them—and i am not sure they do—it may not be that much of a majority, e.g. 55% (a number i totally made up out of nothing as an illustrative example of my point).



FatBarbieDoll said:


> One thing these guys say that I will agree with is -- or is hard to not believe -- is that the human body isn't meant to carry so much excess weight or fat. I don't recall them saying what amount, exactly, but I am guessing that starts from over 200 pounds. It surely must wear on the joints.



Absolutely there is a standard range for which our bodies evolved, and without question physics tells us that additional mass on moving surfaces such as joints increases friction. But we’re dealing with _bio_mechanics, not passive hunks of metal, plastic, etc. While i don’t have a grasp of the specifics, apparently bone grows and depletes throughout each human’s life. Apparently, slowly over time, bone structures can increase (size? density? I don’t know) to handle increased loading.

This gets back to We Don’t Yet Know the demarcation points, or if there even are rigid demarcation points. Some people’s genetics may allow their bodies to grow more bone, muscle, whatever else to support successfully and readily carrying more weight. Others may not.

I’m mostly writing about bone because joints get even more complicated, with synovial fluid and all that. The point is: they’re alive, they can change, and i’m not sure that we humans yet understand how that works, nor what the limits are. And, once again, most researchers doing any research in these areas are 100% human, with biases, likely biased against fat people. They may be intending to do the purest science they can, the way i believe you and i would. They may be unconsciously framing their findings into a world view which might miss other possibilities.

Another point: _anyone can have mobility problems_, for varying reasons. Slender and average-weight people can and do have debilitating joint problems.

Here and now, we may not have anything better than one’s own personal experience. Follow what there is of the science, but make personal choices based upon direct personal experience.
[continues in next post]


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## Sonic Purity (Jun 8, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> I wish I knew what "a lot of weight" was for those ancestors. How could they have been obese anyway? Wouldn't they have had to travel for food and go without often? I look at videos of the modern day isolated tribes and no one in their groups are obese.



It would be great to know the magnitude of weight. They were working with skeletal remains, so there wasn’t much to go on besides bone structure. Normally i’m an organized person, so it irks me that i can’t find this article, properly cite it, and ideally quote from it. It wasn’t long nor especially in-depth (as reported in Science News. The original source might have been more substantial).

Going without food we already know is directly related to modern fatness: the fatter amongst us evolved to be more famine-resistant. It could be that their bodies had the _capacity_ to carry a lot of weight, and that they might have cycled from big and heavy (moving less) to less so (gathering/hunting for more food) and back. As social people, it is entirely possible that some individuals moved less and may have been fatter (or heavier from something other than fat—they couldn’t know why the bone structures were so much more substantial), with other more agile individuals amongst the group doing the foraging/hunting.

As a sweeping generalization extreme fatness seems like a clear evolutionary negative for individuals needing to survive mostly on their own: agility seems essential.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> These guys claim that people/Americans have no clue about proper nutrition. One admits that diets don't work but seems to think he as the solution. IDK. I am trying to be as accurate as possible here because I only care about the truth.



That’s why i’m loving this conversation (as i mentioned): your ruthless pursuit of truth.
I agree with them that most Americans have little to no clue about proper nutrition, though that’s been changing for the better for decades, gradually. The science behind how we view nutrition has kept changing as well.

Glad to read that the one admits that diets don’t work, given how well-established that is for the majority of people and over the long term.



FatBarbieDoll said:


> To be fair and honest, though, I really don't exercise. It's minimal at best -- going up and down the stairs maybe 2-4 times a day and to and from the car, living room and kitchen. LOL!



Remember: minimal is better than lesser, or zero. It’s another continuum. Give yourself props for the exercise and movement you _do_ undertake.

Well-publicized research over the past decade has equated sitting to death. That became far too close to literally true for me. We know that throughout the course of human history until the past century or so or several, most people most of the time were outside, more likely standing, crouching, kneeling, and moving around rather than sitting, though some sitting too.

Our bodies evolved for those sorts of movements. I have read that the lymphatic system has no pump, in the way the heart is the pump of the circulatory system and the lungs are the pump of the respiratory system. Lymph gets circulated via our movement. Hence it’s no surprise that there’s a powerful correlation between lymphatic issues and ill health.

Obviously i could go on and on, and this is already very long. Let me leave this post with the following point. I have learned the hard way that listening to my own body is _critical_ for my health. Pain is a signal, along with pleasure and other sensations. Paying attention to those signals moves me to a healthier place.

Experts, science, and knowledge matter (or can matter). Personal truth is often found within one’s self. I have found that for me it routinely conflicts with established facts.


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## Shotha (Jun 9, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> Thank you for taking the time to type out such a response. I will try my best to respond. I do believe in obesity myself, unlike Shotha -- there is no way someone can be, say, 600 pounds and healthy, right? Why do other countries have so few fat people?
> 
> I have seen people 500+ plus and they can barely walk, if at all. Their limbs are discolored and even basic tasks are an ordeal.
> 
> ...



When I say that I don't believe in obesity, I don't want to deny the effects that excess weight can have on the body. My doctor never describes me as obese but if something is due to my weight that he will say, "It's because of my weight." He does not find the word helpful, when ascribing a condition to the patient's weight and will use other words. I don't see why we can't just use the word fat and talk about varying degrees of fatness.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jun 9, 2020)

Shotha said:


> When I say that I don't believe in obesity, I don't want to deny the effects that excess weight can have on the body. My doctor never describes me as obese but if something is due to my weight that he will say, "It's because of my weight." He does not find the word helpful, when ascribing a condition to the patient's weight and will use other words. I don't see why we can't just use the word fat and talk about varying degrees of fatness.




Is it perhaps because the word is considered to be dehumanizing?


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## Shotha (Jun 9, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> Is it perhaps because the word is considered to be dehumanizing?



I think that the word overwhelms people. There are more supportive ways of telling people that they need to lose weight.

When I started gaining I set myself huge and overwhelming targets - like putting on 100 lb. I couldn't even put on 1 lb and keep it on, because 100 lb was just too much. My own objectives overwhelmed me. I realized this and started setting targets like putting on 4 lb this month, which is about the same as 1 lb a week. I achieved my goal of 100 lb in less than 2 years. I think that it is the same with anything. If your targets are too big, you're setting yourself up for failure. This is why I don't believe in obesity. I find that the word overwhelms people and I agree that it is a dehumanizing word. I think that if someone needs to lose a huge amount of weight, then the medical profession should talk about it in ways that empower the patient. The word "obese" creates panic and panicking people are not in control. Weight loss needs control. This is the main reason why I do not believe in obesity. I think that it is an unhelpful concept. It is arbitrarily defined. And it puts the blame on the patient. It comes from the Latin word "obesus", which means "someone who has over eaten". It doesn't take into account that people can be fat for other reasons than "overindulgence".

I view fat as an evolutionary issue. For mammals life without fat would be much harder than it is. For many of them survival would be impossible. The fat-thin spectrum is an important part of our diversity and the species with the greatest diversity are the ones with the best chance of surviving.

I'm not trying to sing some eulogy of fat here. I just believe that it's not a one-size-fits-all issue. "Demeaning" terminology has no place in medicine. I believe that doctors should speak more sympathetically to patients, who need to lose weight.

And what of those of us, who like being fat? How do we balance their physical health needs with their mental health needs? Some of us describe as experiencing body dysmorphia at lower weights.


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## north2alaska (Jul 2, 2020)

I think the argument of who deserves medical care can be made for any two people.

One of my grandparents was a lifelong smoker and worked as a telephone guy where he was breathing in asbestos for the majority of his life. He died of emphysema after the doctor recommended him to quit smoking and he refused. Surely according to these trainers, he should be denied a bed. After all, he caused his condition. The men in his family lived to their nineties, he died at 73. 

My aunt died of sepsis. Her doctor refused for two months leading up to her death to take her concerns seriously as "she just needed to lose weight". Sepsis affects every weight bracket, not just obese people, although sepsis can be a higher risk to those with certain conditions, diabetes is listed as one. AFAIK she was pre-diabetic. So I would be curious to know if these trainers think that she deserved to not get medical care. 

I am very fortunate to have found a doctor who can separate my weight from any health issues I may have. Instead of treating my insomnia as weight related, he approached it as a stress issue (it was) and helped me find the appropriate fix. 

LOL sorry for the rant. I take this kind of talk seriously since it is very personal for me. I would've pursued a medical career had I not been talked out of it.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Jul 29, 2020)

north2alaska said:


> I think the argument of who deserves medical care can be made for any two people.
> 
> One of my grandparents was a lifelong smoker and worked as a telephone guy where he was breathing in asbestos for the majority of his life. He died of emphysema after the doctor recommended him to quit smoking and he refused. Surely according to these trainers, he should be denied a bed. After all, he caused his condition. The men in his family lived to their nineties, he died at 73.
> 
> ...





I appreciate your intelligent comment. These guys probably would say that about people like your grandpa who smoked and then refused to quit. They seem to be convinced that people who cause their own health issues should be denied beds/medical care at least when someone who is sick through no fault of their own needs that bed. They would likely let the obese person die and give the bed to the "deserving" person instead if it came down to it and there was a shortage. I guess they think it's unfair that someone who works so hard and has self-discipline and does everything they can to stay healthy does not get the treatment they need through no fault of their own because an obese person, who "obviously" (my wording) does not take care of their health took the bed instead. It seems to be a moral outrage to them.

What I have typed is the way I interpreted their comments and, as I am sure we all know, sometimes interpretations are wrong. 

The Swole guy posted another video recently that left him feeling salty. He is/was upset that fat people were asking for or demanding seating accommodation. I don't have the sanity points to watch any more of their stuff right now, so I skipped this video.


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## north2alaska (Aug 5, 2020)

FatBarbieDoll said:


> I appreciate your intelligent comment. These guys probably would say that about people like your grandpa who smoked and then refused to quit. They seem to be convinced that people who cause their own health issues should be denied beds/medical care at least when someone who is sick through no fault of their own needs that bed. They would likely let the obese person die and give the bed to the "deserving" person instead if it came down to it and there was a shortage. I guess they think it's unfair that someone who works so hard and has self-discipline and does everything they can to stay healthy does not get the treatment they need through no fault of their own because an obese person, who "obviously" (my wording) does not take care of their health took the bed instead. It seems to be a moral outrage to them.
> 
> What I have typed is the way I interpreted their comments and, as I am sure we all know, sometimes interpretations are wrong.
> 
> The Swole guy posted another video recently that left him feeling salty. He is/was upset that fat people were asking for or demanding seating accommodation. I don't have the sanity points to watch any more of their stuff right now, so I skipped this video.



Mentalities like theirs ("I did everything right, so why am I sick?", etc..) always make me curious. Life was never promised to be fair or easy, even if you maintain a "perfect" body and health. Life simply isn't fair. I dont believe one person is any less or any more deserving because of a choice they made/didn't make. Because at the end of the day, no matter what choices you made, everyone still dies. 

I'd rather live my life making memories, making a difference and enjoying my time than grumbling about how unfair life can be. 

(Although, I'd be curious to see how he views people who have to be hospitalized for anorexia - after all, they are "choosing" to be unhealthy, no? Maybe I'll have to suffer through his video to pose that question. I'm curious to see how far his ideas go)

The Swole guy sounds like a channel I will gladly skip. I ain't got time for watching salty people on the internet. I'll maintain some belief that he's a nice guy, just because everyone deserves that.


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## FatBarbieDoll (Aug 25, 2020)

north2alaska said:


> Mentalities like theirs ("I did everything right, so why am I sick?", etc..) always make me curious. Life was never promised to be fair or easy, even if you maintain a "perfect" body and health. Life simply isn't fair. I dont believe one person is any less or any more deserving because of a choice they made/didn't make. Because at the end of the day, no matter what choices you made, everyone still dies.
> 
> I'd rather live my life making memories, making a difference and enjoying my time than grumbling about how unfair life can be.
> 
> ...




They believe everyone should do their absolute best to be as healthy as possible. Most recent video from Swole I saw -- but could not bare to watch -- was about fat people wanting seating accommodation.


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