# Discussion of penned animals - moved from another thread.



## moore2me (Jan 26, 2008)

Carrie said:


> Hi, everyone.
> 
> In addition to our much-loved "Cupid" event here at Dims, I wanted to invite you all to send a very different kind of Valentine, as well.
> 
> ...




*How about informing people of something they might NOT want to participate in? Just a few facts to remind folks, I'll try and not "muck up" your thread too badly:*


My dogs are penned - they are working dogs. Their job is to guard my house and property. Their "pen" outside is about 160,000 ft2 (almost as big as a football field) and they roam loose inside of it. Their outside houses are wooden,with thick floor pads. The dog houses are underneath my porch which wraps around the outside of my house. Their houses are huge - handmade, big enough for a 160 lb Rottie to walk into.

My Chow and Rottie have thick, winter fur coats from living outside. When they do get to come inside occasionally (during thunderstorms), they are soon miserable because I keep my house heated to about 70 degrees F.

They want to be outside and guarding. They know it is their job. When they think someone or something's coming up my road and they are not outside (I keep them in when I know a guest is coming) they raise an uproar and protest like you would not believe. I put them in a bedroom and shut the door as a courtesy/safety measure to my guest and you should hear the noises behind the door.

As far as letting them in the house all the time, our liitle home is much, much smaller than the dog's yard. Keeping them inside would be cruel. There just isn't physically enough room for people and large, active dogs. Little poodles, maybe. A 160 lb Rottie and a psycho Chow, we would "need a bigger boat". 

*And as far as employing cub scouts and brownies to craft the doggie valentines, the kiddies need to understand that strangers' dogs should not be approached. Kiddies don't need the idea planted in their heads that someone should let doggies out of their pens. (And, don't think some children won't make this creative leap between the valentines and the act of opening cages.) Too many children every year are bitten and mauled by dogs and adults need to explain safety precautions & the importance not approaching strange dogs.*


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## GWARrior (Jan 26, 2008)

way to jump the gun there.

Im pretty sure this idea was aimed at pet owners whose animals are not in pens the size of a football field.... cause thats not a pen, thats a fenced in yard.

I think its trying to deal more with pets that are kept in 5x5 cages year round. Or maybe even a dog that is tied to a tree 24/7.

You're dogs are not caged. Your dogs have comfortbable dog houses. Your dogs can run around.

so... it wasnt aimed at you. chillthefuckout.


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## Waxwing (Jan 26, 2008)

Yeah, those are NOT analogous situations.

Also, too many children are bitten and mauled by DOGS WHO ARE RAISED TO BE AGGRESSIVE AND MEAN, and unused to human interaction. WHICH IS THE HUMANS' FAULT. It's not a fucking lion. You raise a dog to be a gun-shy, bite-happy "guard dog" (a term which busts my spleen with its inanity) then that's what happens.

Fuck me all over the place I've gotta walk right out of this thread before I lose my ladylike charm.

Oh, and good on Carrie for the original post. Goddammit.


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## GWARrior (Jan 26, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> Yeah, those are NOT analogous situations.
> 
> Also, too many children are bitten and mauled by DOGS WHO ARE RAISED TO BE AGGRESSIVE AND MEAN, and unused to human interaction. WHICH IS THE HUMANS' FAULT. It's not a fucking lion. You raise a dog to be a gun-shy, bite-happy "guard dog" (a term which busts my spleen with its inanity) then that's what happens.
> 
> ...



oh i completely forgot to address the biting thing, but i completely agree!



and if you really want to be fucked all over the place...


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## Waxwing (Jan 26, 2008)

This is beautiful!!! YAY!

I'm a repeated-offender when it comes to simply removing dogs from situations in which they're tied up all day. And I'll do it again. But your idea is even nicer.


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## Carrie (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks, Gwar and Waxwing, you've got it right; I was really referring to pens as in actual small pens, not football field sized fenced areas. Apples and oranges. That being said, I'm sure you and I could still have a spirited discussion re. keeping dogs inside vs. out, M2M, if I was so inclined, but I'm not. Suffice it to say that I do think there are occasional situations where certain dogs are more comfortable outside than in, but I take serious issue with people who adopt a puppy and lose interest in it or it becomes "inconvenient", so they stick it outside on a chain, or in a pen, for it to just sit there day after day, alone, suffering from the elements, without stimulation or interaction, confined to a small area, and worst of all, staring at the home they'd love nothing more than to be a part of. That is animal cruelty, plain and simple. 

There is a Youtube video on the page I linked to in my post, if anyone cares to see examples of the chain/pen situations to which I was referring in my original post/thread.


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## Waxwing (Jan 26, 2008)

Carrie said:


> Thanks, Gwar and Waxwing, you've got it right; I was really referring to pens as in actual small pens, not football field sized fenced areas. Apples and oranges. That being said, I'm sure you and I could still have a spirited discussion re. keeping dogs inside vs. out, M2M, if I was so inclined, but I'm not. Suffice it to say that I do think there are occasional situations where certain dogs are more comfortable outside than in, but I take serious issue with people who adopt a puppy and lose interest in it or it becomes "inconvenient", so they stick it outside on a chain, or in a pen, for it to just sit there day after day, alone, suffering from the elements, without stimulation or interaction, confined to a small area, and worst of all, staring at the home they'd love nothing more than to be a part of. That is animal cruelty, plain and simple.
> 
> There is a Youtube video on the page I linked to in my post, if anyone cares to see examples of the chain/pen situations to which I was referring in my original post/thread.



AND you did it without cursing, which is an art that escapes me. :wubu:


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## Carrie (Jan 26, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> AND you did it without cursing, which is an art that escapes me. :wubu:


After a great internal struggle, if that helps at all.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 27, 2008)

Carrie said:


> After a great internal struggle, if that helps at all.



OH hell yes. I can't even type mine... just won't DO* to end up banning myself.


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## Carrie (Jan 27, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> just won't DO* to end up banning myself.


Now _that_ would be an incredibly impressive display of devotion to one's duty, AM.


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## butch (Jan 27, 2008)

I may be a bit nitpicky here, but as a fellow large dog lover, who has grown up around St Bernards, Bloodhounds, English Mastiffs, and Irish Wolfhounds my entire life, I need to state that all large dogs aren't automatically miserable being stuck in a home of any size most of the time, as long as they get enough exercise.

The dogs I've lived with have preferred to be where the humans are, including on the couch or in the bed with the humans. It all depends on how you raise them, and for my family and friends with working breeds, they've preferred to raise their dogs indoors, and the dogs have loved it.


Just my experience, YMMV and all that. In fact, in my experience, herding dogs, Border Collies in particular, do seem to prefer being outdoors more than my big dogs ever did, but again, exercise, stimulation, and attention is the key to making a dog's life happy, indoors or out.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 27, 2008)

Slight thread derail here....

Am I the only one in total love with the Dog Whisperer? I've been watching him a lot since I've been home recuperating and I'm learning so much from him.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 27, 2008)

butch said:


> I may be a bit nitpicky here, but as a fellow large dog lover, who has grown up around St Bernards, Bloodhounds, English Mastiffs, and Irish Wolfhounds my entire life, I need to state that all large dogs aren't automatically miserable being stuck in a home of any size most of the time, as long as they get enough exercise.
> 
> The dogs I've lived with have preferred to be where the humans are, including on the couch or in the bed with the humans. It all depends on how you raise them, and for my family and friends with working breeds, they've preferred to raise their dogs indoors, and the dogs have loved it.
> 
> ...



Agreed. I grew up with 4 large dogs in the house and all were fine - more than fine, they ruled the roost.


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## Waxwing (Jan 27, 2008)

Thank you, Butch. I absolutely agree. Every doggie big or small needs great outdoor time and lots of play, but your dog wants to be WITH YOU. 

My Border Collie, as much as he would probably enjoy herding some sheep on a rainy scottish hillside right now, is happier being curled up next to me while I watch Court TV. 

Dogs are not wolves. We've removed them very far from what they might "naturally" prefer. Now they are companions as closely linked to us as, say, hyenas are not. They don't want to live outside in the woods. They want to live near us. That's what we've created after eons of breeding. Whether that is right or wrong, it just is.


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## Ash (Jan 27, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> Slight thread derail here....
> 
> Am I the only one in total love with the Dog Whisperer? I've been watching him a lot since I've been home recuperating and I'm learning so much from him.



Oh, Cesar. How I love thee. :wubu: That man is fantastic! I've learned a lot from him, too. And he seems like a genuinely nice guy.

Also, I totally agree with butch. I grew up with rottweilers, and they were ALWAYS inside and wanted nothing more than to be with their people. My mom's big rottie Birdie was the biggest lapdog you'd ever meet.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 27, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> Thank you, Butch. I absolutely agree. Every doggie big or small needs great outdoor time and lots of play, but your dog wants to be WITH YOU.
> 
> My Border Collie, as much as he would probably enjoy herding some sheep on a rainy scottish hillside right now, is happier being curled up next to me while I watch Court TV.
> 
> Dogs are not wolves. We've removed them very far from what they might "naturally" prefer. Now they are companions as closely linked to us as, say, hyenas are not. They don't want to live outside in the woods. They want to live near us. That's what we've created after eons of breeding. Whether that is right or wrong, it just is.



TRUtv - get it straight woman. 

Cause of death, strangulation with cloth ripped from bedspread. 

Hi, I'm a TRUtv junkie.


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## butch (Jan 27, 2008)

Ashley said:


> Oh, Cesar. How I love thee.
> 
> That man is fantastic! I've learned a lot from him, too. And he seems like a genuinely nice guy.



another derail here-I'm slightly jealous of Cesar because I have a friend who used to call me the dog whisperer before that show was on TV. I've missed my calling, lol.


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## Waxwing (Jan 27, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> TRUtv - get it straight woman.
> 
> Cause of death, strangulation with cloth ripped from bedspread.
> 
> Hi, I'm a TRUtv junkie.



I refuse to acknowledge the re-branding! "Not reality: ACTUALITY"?? That doesn't even make sense! 

I'm trying to watch whatever is on said channel right now while listening to a book on tape AND texting, so I have no idea who killed anybody. For all I know, I MAY HAVE.


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## AnnMarie (Jan 27, 2008)

Waxwing said:


> I refuse to acknowledge the re-branding! "Not reality: ACTUALITY"?? That doesn't even make sense!
> 
> I'm trying to watch whatever is on said channel right now while listening to a book on tape AND texting, so I have no idea who killed anybody. For all I know, I MAY HAVE.



It's inconclusive - but I'll know by 12:58, I'll text and let you know if you did it. 

/derail


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## Carrie (Jan 27, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> Slight thread derail here....
> 
> Am I the only one in total love with the Dog Whisperer? I've been watching him a lot since I've been home recuperating and I'm learning so much from him.


I'm completely fascinated by his approach and techniques, Vick. They're almost revolutionary, so in some ways they really clash with what I've been taught (particulary in terms of safety concerns - that one where he was trimming the little white dog's face with sharp scissors while it was flailing around trying to bite him, I thought I was going to hemorrhage I was wincing so hard), but he seems to get the desired results, even with the tough dogs. He definitely understands the whole "pack" mindset, so I think his title is pretty apt. I learn new things about dogs when I watch his show, and it's definitely entertaining! 

I think my favorite televised dog trainer is Victoria Stilwell on "It's Me or the Dog", on Animal Planet; it's an English show. I think she's just brilliant in terms of diagnosing the problem AND getting through to the owners (which, really, is more than half the battle!), and her way with dogs is just magic. I really admire her, too.


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## DeniseW (Jan 27, 2008)

lol...I posted in July that I was going to be chained to a doghouse to help stop the chaining of dogs outside 24/7. I was trying to raise money for DDB and not one person offered to sponsor me. I barely got 3 resposnses to my thread. I guess I'm just not popular enough but I digress, DDB is stating that dogs that are left chained outside become anti-social and mean. I've heard about many children that have been mauled by chained dogs. Also, a dog that is chained all day and night, cannot defend itself against other animals or people. It breaks my heart when people get dogs and just leave them outside all the time. Dogs are very social creatures and need lots of love and interaction.


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## Carrie (Jan 27, 2008)

DeniseW said:


> lol...I posted in July that I was going to be chained to a doghouse to help stop the chaining of dogs outside 24/7. I was trying to raise money for DDB and not one person offered to sponsor me. I barely got 3 resposnses to my thread. I guess I'm just not popular enough but I digress, DDB is stating that dogs that are left chained outside become anti-social and mean. I've heard about many children that have been mauled by chained dogs. Also, a dog that is chained all day and night, cannot defend itself against other animals or people. It breaks my heart when people get dogs and just leave them outside all the time. Dogs are very social creatures and need lots of love and interaction.


I missed your thread back in July, Denise, my apologies. That just happens sometimes - some threads thrive, some don't, because of all sorts of factors, most of which have nothing to do with the original poster. Bravo to you and thank you for doing that, and if you ever do it again, I'll be very, very happy to sponsor you.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 27, 2008)

Ashley said:


> Oh, Cesar. How I love thee. :wubu: That man is fantastic! I've learned a lot from him, too. And he seems like a genuinely nice guy.
> 
> Also, I totally agree with butch. I grew up with rottweilers, and they were ALWAYS inside and wanted nothing more than to be with their people. My mom's big rottie Birdie was the biggest lapdog you'd ever meet.



I really really really really really really really (really!) want a Rottweiler. Burtimus is a little worried because of their reputation -- not as vicious killers but more that you need to be a serious "boss" or they run wild over you. Someday, I think, I'll get one. I want a female one named Delilah. I don't know why. I just do. I was raised with big dogs (literally -- I hung out in their whelping boxes as a baby and we had two St Bernards and a St Bernard/Boxer mix) and so I have no fear of large dogs. Little dogs, OTOH, scare me because the ONLY dog that bit me was a Pekingese. Man, I hate those things.



butch said:


> another derail here-I'm slightly jealous of Cesar because I have a friend who used to call me the dog whisperer before that show was on TV. I've missed my calling, lol.



Nah, you just share your name with him. I think there's room for lots of dog whisperers out there. In fact, if you'd ever like to come to Alaska, I have a stubborn (or rather "determined" as Cesar calls them) basset hound that needs a talking to. She's half the size of my lab/cattle dog mix and rules the roost -- something which, thanks to watching and reading Cesar's approach is going to ch-ch-ch-chaaaaange.



Carrie said:


> I'm completely fascinated by his approach and techniques, Vick. They're almost revolutionary, so in some ways they really clash with what I've been taught (particulary in terms of safety concerns - that one where he was trimming the little white dog's face with sharp scissors while it was flailing around trying to bite him, I thought I was going to hemorrhage I was wincing so hard),



You too? I watched that last night through my hands, just CONVINCED he was going to poke that dog in the face. He's amazing, though, isn't he? I really like his stressing of exercise first. I HAVE to work on that with my doggies. It's hard, though, living in Alaska and I sure as hell can't walk them with my hernia-repaired self. I'm going to see if I can get my daughter to help me get one of them on the treadmill. (And yeah, I'll post pix if I can manage it). I love how he got bit but it was no big deal. Heh.



> He definitely understands the whole "pack" mindset, so I think his title is pretty apt. I learn new things about dogs when I watch his show, and it's definitely entertaining!



I agree about the pack mindset. It's soooo true, and I'm learning to try to keep it in mind for my "ladies". And yeah, it's fun to watch. I can almost predict, when I hear a little mousy owner say, "She does whatever she wants" *exactly* where he's gonna go. 



> I think my favorite televised dog trainer is Victoria Stilwell on "It's Me or the Dog", on Animal Planet; it's an English show. I think she's just brilliant in terms of diagnosing the problem AND getting through to the owners (which, really, is more than half the battle!), and her way with dogs is just magic. I really admire her, too.



Being a lover of British shows I'll have to see if I can search for this on Tivo. Sounds interesting.

Dogs. Ya gotta love 'em. I want an entire pack but Burtimus just thinks I'm insane.


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## moore2me (Jan 27, 2008)

Carrie said:


> Hi, everyone.
> 
> In addition to our much-loved "Cupid" event here at Dims, I wanted to invite you all to send a very different kind of Valentine, as well.
> 
> ...





Waxwing said:


> This is beautiful!!! YAY!
> 
> *Moore - Very nice - tubular. *
> 
> I'm a repeated-offender when it comes to simply removing dogs from situations in which they're tied up all day. And I'll do it again. But your idea is even nicer.




*Moore - I too "liberate" dogs from situations of confinement. And I too will do it again. But, I like the idea of a dog sending it's owner a valentine.*



butch said:


> I was going to hijack the other recent dog thread, but I'll hijack Carrie's instead (hope it 's OK-I think this is an excellent idea, btw).
> 
> It breaks my heart to see pets mistreated, and thank you to those of you who've been able to make some lucky dog's (and other animals) life better.



*Moore - I support this message. I am considering expanding my doggie "liberation" activities to other animals - large animals - specifically horses & cows. They are in need in my area as well as dogs.*


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## Shosh (Jan 28, 2008)

Deborah I can understand your need to have penned guard dogs. I really would not want to have an encounter with a coyote invading my space in the night to be honest.
You have to do what is needed out there.


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## moore2me (Jan 28, 2008)

Susannah said:


> Deborah I can understand your need to have penned guard dogs. I really would not want to have an encounter with a coyote invading my space in the night to be honest.
> You have to do what is needed out there.



Thanks Susannah, In addition to coyotes, for 20 plus years, must husband worked at night and I was by myself out here for 14 or so hours. (He retired in November '07 so he's home nights now.) I don't use guns - I'm too spastic, so my weapon of choice for protection was (and is) my dogs. With them working outside, I could sleep at night when hubby was at work, knowing all was well around my house, and this is still true today.


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## GWARrior (Jan 28, 2008)

We have coyotes all around my house... even had them on our porch at times. My family does not have a guard dog.

That being said, if someone came into the house in the middle of the night, I dog would go into protection-mode and at least bark to let us know something was up.

But she certainly aint no guard dog.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

Our dogs live outside. They have from day 1. When it's too cold they come in - when it's too hot they come in. Our one dog Beau jumps out fence if he is let loose to run around the yard. So until we can afford invisible fencing he is on a run and leash - he can run the length of the yard but not get out. Considering he could get killed if he runs into the busy street we live on - I find chaining him to be a very good compromise. 

Not everyone wants a dog in the house all the time. And sometimes when you buy a puppy you have no idea he is going to grow to over 80 lbs and tall enough to rest his head on the top of your 3 foot fence.

And all people have different ideas of what is OK. Unless the dogs are starving or being abused - having them live outside is an option some people choose.


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## GWARrior (Jan 28, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Not everyone wants a dog in the house all the time. And sometimes when you buy a puppy you have no idea he is going to grow to over 80 lbs and tall enough to rest his head on the top of your 3 foot fence.



Which is why one should always do their research on breeds. You can usually tell what breeds your mutt has in it, and estimate their mature size and weight.

Think that cute puppy will grow too big for the house? Dont get it.

And just a warning for those that do put their dogs on runs- - They can very easily choke themselves. My dad's family had 13 hunting beagles when he was growing up and the all lived outside. One was put on a run and it jumped through an open basement window and died. From that day on, my grandfather never tied up a dog. Just the other day I found out that a cocker spaniel that used to come for groomings got caught up in his run and died. And I also know of a German Shepard that was on a run, hanged himself by jumping over his dog house and getting caught.

So be careful please!


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## DeniseW (Jan 28, 2008)

Jes said:


> thanks for the link, carrie. i am always afraid that owners will feel shamed, even though the card is sweet and not scolding, as you say, and mistreat the dog because of it. aiii. I don't know much about dogs, and depend on other people to tell me and remind me that they are pack animals and all the rest. My aunt once told me that that's what turns dogs mean, in many situations. Dogs chained in the front yard who get no other interaction that barking and growling at strangers. *sad face*



that is exactly right, thanks for posting this Carrie, I belong to DDB and I try to get the word out to everyone. Dogs are very social and hate to be left alone, people get dogs and then tie them to a chain and forget they are there. That is why they turn vicious, they need interaction. If a child or another animal gets too close to a dog that's been chained, they could get hurt(or worse) because the dog has been left alone too long. Also, a dog that is tethered cannot defend itself should it be attacked or provoked by another animal or human. I'm so glad this organization exists. Carrie, I'm sure you know what happened to Tammy(founder of DDB) when she stood up for a dog, her arrest and trial. It's awful to think that because she wanted to help a dog that was almost dying, that she could do jail time.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm home all day - he's fine. 






GWARrior said:


> Which is why one should always do their research on breeds. You can usually tell what breeds your mutt has in it, and estimate their mature size and weight.
> 
> Think that cute puppy will grow too big for the house? Dont get it.
> 
> ...


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 28, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Our dogs live outside. They have from day 1. When it's too cold they come in - when it's too hot they come in. Our one dog Beau jumps out fence if he is let loose to run around the yard. So until we can afford invisible fencing he is on a run and leash - he can run the length of the yard but not get out. Considering he could get killed if he runs into the busy street we live on - I find chaining him to be a very good compromise.
> 
> Not everyone wants a dog in the house all the time. And sometimes when you buy a puppy you have no idea he is going to grow to over 80 lbs and tall enough to rest his head on the top of your 3 foot fence.
> 
> And all people have different ideas of what is OK. Unless the dogs are starving or being abused - having them live outside is an option some people choose.



As stated upthread, dogs are pack animals, they get stressed and anxious if left alone. If you don't want a dog in the house, don't get a dog. Leaving a dog alone outside is cruel. 

No it's not the same as starvation but it's forcing the animal against his natural instincts. And ignorance of what size a puppy will grow to is no excuse...do some reading before you get a puppy, very simple.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> As stated upthread, dogs are pack animals, they get stressed and anxious if left alone. If you don't want a dog in the house, don't get a dog. Leaving a dog alone outside is cruel.
> 
> No it's not the same as starvation but it's forcing the animal against his natural instincts. And ignorance of what size a puppy will grow to is no excuse...do some reading before you get a puppy, very simple.



Do you even read my posts? I said our *DOGS* plural. Until we had to put Pearlie to sleep there were 3. Now there are 2.

And you don't have the right to tell me or anyone if we can have dogs or not.


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## GWARrior (Jan 28, 2008)

No one ever said you cant have a dog


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

> If you don't want a dog in the house, don't get a dog. Leaving a dog alone outside is cruel.



Exibit "A"

And it is not against a dogs nature to be outside. Our dog Pearlie (before she died) never wanted to come in the house. In the snow she would curl up in the snow and was quite happy that way, and warm.

Dogs are animals - decendants of Wolves - they would not build a house to live in - they would live outside in adaquet shelter - and we provide that. I love my puppies - but they stay outside are like it that way.

 (this was not aimed at you Gwarior)

I've had enough today - so goodnight al.


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## GWARrior (Jan 28, 2008)

and im pretty sure her comment wasnt directed specifically at you.

but whatev.



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> Exibit "A"
> 
> And it is not against a dogs nature to be outside. Our dog Pearlie (before she died) never wanted to come in the house. In the snow she would curl up in the snow and was quite happy that way, and warm.
> 
> ...


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> and im pretty sure her comment wasnt directed specifically at you.
> 
> but whatev.




She was posting to me. But whatever is right.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> As stated upthread, dogs are pack animals, they get stressed and anxious if left alone. If you don't want a dog in the house, don't get a dog. Leaving a dog alone outside is cruel.
> 
> No it's not the same as starvation but it's forcing the animal against his natural instincts. And ignorance of what size a puppy will grow to is no excuse...do some reading before you get a puppy, very simple.


 
I had decided not to post here any more, but I find I have to respond to this one.

Up until earlier this month, we had three dogs, who all lived outside. As Sandie stated above, we bring them in when the weather is extreme (such as last week, when it was below freezing at night), but they spend 99 percent of the time outside. And even then, Pearlie (the one we just lost) would scratch on the door to go back out - she was a chow-husky mix, and she seemed to prefer the cold. When we lived in Colorado, many times I would find that it snowed during the night and Pearl was asleep, curled up in the snow - just like her ancesters did.

We have two insulated dog houses, plus what is probably the world's largest dog house. It's an 8-x-10 foot storage shed with a wooden floor and a doggy door so the dogs can go in when they want to get out of the weather. Here's a picture of it while I was building it, with Beau (our puppy) looking out the doggy door:







Speaking of Beau, we had to get a dog trolley for him because before we had him fixed, he started jumping over our fence. It was either put him on the trolley or run the risk of having him get hit by a car on the busy state highway that's near our home. And I set the trolley up so there is nothing within his reach that can present a danger to him (such as a basement window well). I believe that putting him on the trolley to keep him safe is much more humane than possibly placing him in danger of being hit by a car. We had to put one dog to sleep a few years ago after he got out of our yard and got hit by a car - I never want to go through that again. (BTW, the trolley is 45 feet long and he's on a 12-foot lead, so he has plenty of room to move around our yard.)

Our dogs are NOT "alone outside", because they have each other and they see me at least twice a day when I feed them - more often on the weekends, when I can spend more time with them. 

Dogs are descended from wolves; it's instinctive behavior for them to live outside. Our older dog Peanut is a hound/shepherd mix, and Beau is a bloodhound/lab mix. And hounds, shepherds, and retrievers are all perfectly content being outside. Agreed, it may be cruel chaining a yorkie or a chihuahua outside, but many breeds of dogs are fine outdoors - such as ours. 

And your comment telling people to "do some reading" is laughable. When you adopt mixed-breed pound pullies like we did, there's no telling HOW large they will get. When we adopted Peanut, she was smaller than Della, out cat. Now she's over 70 pounds of dog. And Beau is just ove a year old, so he probably hasn't stopped growing yet. But since he's a hunting dog, he's perfectly happy living in our back yard.

In closing, you cannot make blanket statements that "no dog should ever be kept outside". The decision of how to accomodate a dog needs to be done on a dog-by-dog basis. The organization mentioned in the original post may have good intentions, but I believe they're a bit misguided.

(BTW, here in TX they are trying to make it illegal to tie a dog outside in Fort Worth. I hope that ordinance does NOT get passed - if it does, you will find many dogs being dumped in shelters or abandoned on the roadside because people will be unable to keep them indoors and will opt to just get rid of them. Now THAT'S real humane - getting a law passed that will result in dogs losing their homes.)


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## GWARrior (Jan 28, 2008)

way to make a comeback wayne!

look, no one here is questioning your pet ownership. im sure you love all of your dogs and do everything you can do ensure their health and wellbeing.

and youre right. some dogs LOVE being outside during the winter. my first dog was a wolf/husky and he slept outside at night. he just loved it.

but like i said before. the valentines project is aimed at people who obviously dont care for their pet, and its left outside 24/7/365. and you cant deny that people dont do that. because ive fucking seen it.

but seriously, people just need to some goddamn doggy homework and realize what they are doing when they decide to get a dog. you CAN find out what breeds your mix is, i saw BOOKS on it in the bookstore. you CAN estimate your mixed breed's size. if you dont want a fucking dog in the house , get one thats bred for colder areas.

im just so fucking sick of people treating animals like shit.


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## Wayne_Zitkus (Jan 28, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> im just so fucking sick of people treating animals like shit.


And I'm sick of people who make blanket statements that are supposed to apply to everyone - like "no dog should every be kept outside, because it's cruel".

It's not. And it seems to me that there are far too many people outthere who are trying to force their opinions on everyone else.

Just my $0.02.


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## moore2me (Jan 29, 2008)

*Here in Arkansas, if you start telling folks that they can't leave their dogs outside, you better do it from somewhere far, far away.* Many of the males in this state and other southern states, I'll call them good ole' boys, love their dog(s) as much or more than they do their wife. These guys will let their dog have privileges and that they wouldn't think of giving people - they feed their dog portions of their food, they let their dog ride up front, in their truck, they scratch the dog's ears and rub its belly every day, and spend big money on food and medicine for their furry friend. 

That said, try and tell these men it's cruel and inhumane to leave "Old Blue" in an outside pen - somebody is going to get in a heap of trouble. Just a few reasons:

(1) *Dogs used for water hunting (Labradors, water spaniels, retrievers, etc.) need to be accustomed to cold and hot temperatures in order to safely work outdoors.* These dogs plunge into chilly water in the fall and winter to pick up ducks and geese their masters have shot. Arkansas is a major duck hunting state and we are serious about this sport. 

(2) *Dogs like my Chow, and Malamutes, Huskies, Newfoundlands, Great Pyrenees, and mixes thereof, were specifically bred to be outdoor dogs.* In fact Huskies and Malamutes can sleep in the snow staked out in Alaska. When its hot out, some Arkansans shave their furry friends so they dont have the thick coat  a chore I have done myself many times.

(3) *Like me, may people have dogs as guard animals. Dogs are stationed outside to bark and alert their owner when an unknown person is approaching the property.* This is serious business in places where several times a week someone is murdered in their home or several times a night homes are burglarized. Having an alert watchdog or two stationed outdoors helps the owner feel secure. In addition to two legged varmints, my dogs kill outdoor snakes, mice, rats, and possums. (The only creature I wish my dogs would stop trying to attack are visiting skunks. And there is no way in hell, those dogs are coming inside for a month after going a round with a skunk. No, tomato juice doesnt help either.)

(4) *And if you think dogs prefer humans for company over their own kind  that is pretty self centered. Why wouldnt a dog rather be with his or her own kind? Sure theyre social animals  but socially evolved as a dog pack. *We are the ones that are projecting our emotions and morals on these ancestors of wolves who are tolerating us out of an ancient survival instinct. Thinking four beagles would rather be with a man than each other is projecting human emotions on animals that just obey the rules of mother nature  and are not burdened with our social issues or angst.

*Now if you have ulterior motives for not wanting your neighbors dogs outdoors, just say so.* Are the dogs barking too much? Is the smell of the pen a nuisance or a pest breeding ground? Does the pen not properly contain the dogs & they escape and terrorize the neighborhood? Do the dogs get out of the pen and try to mate with your dog when shes in heat? There should be city ordinances against these violations. Check with your state, county, or city codes and report the problem to the correct authority.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

moore2me said:


> *And if you think dogs prefer humans for company over their own kind  that is pretty self centered. Why wouldnt a dog rather be with his or her own kind? Sure theyre social animals  but socially evolved as a dog pack. *We are the ones that are projecting our emotions and morals on these ancestors of wolves who are tolerating us out of an ancient survival instinct. Thinking four beagles would rather be with a man than each other is projecting human emotions on animals that just obey the rules of mother nature  and are not burdened with our social issues or angst.



This one resonates with me. I've had my dog for 9 years. He's a mixed breed (more commonly referred to as a mutt ) but I purchased him from a pet shop as an 8-week-old puppy. He was adorable ... black, with white trim on his paws and under his neck (hence, the name Tux). I loved him like a child, and ignorantly treated him like one. Tux was allowed free run of the house. He slept in the same bed with my husband and I. For years, we spent countless hours walking him, playing with him, grooming him, etc. I literally thought of Tux as my "baby" (and yeah, was pretty obnoxious about it). Tux isn't a baby. He's a dog. He's now an unruly, aggressive, misbehaving dog ... and it's our fault. My intentions were good, but I was operating under the mistaken assumption that my dog should be treated as I would a cherished human family member. I've since spent countless hours, and many hundreds of dollars, on professional training and intervention, as I cannot trust my aggressive & unpredictable dog near our toddler. With help, we've managed to curb many of his more disturbing behaviors. He no longer jumps on furniture, sleeps with us, leaves a room before us, growls at us when we attempt to correct a behavior, or displays other overtly dominant behaviors. However, there are two areas that no amount of training has improved: He will not allow us to go anywhere near his food bowl, and he snatches any food that is placed within his reach. Obviously, we have concerns about him snatching Jegan's food right out of his chubby little hands, and taking a finger in the process. And Tux will not back down when he sees what he perceives as threatening behavior towards me (Jerry standing over me when I'm in bed and talking to me sets him off ... as do any behaviors on Jerry's part that he sees as dominant). We have reached the end of our rope, emotionally and financially. Right now, Tux is kept downstairs at all times, while Jegan is gated in with us, upstairs. Tux is, obviously, very unhappy with this new arrangement. We love Tux, but there is no question that our child is more important ... period. And we have to consider Jegan's safety. What we're currently doing is working, only because Jegan is still too small to figure out how to get around the security gates. Once he figures that out, there is no way to ensure that he and Tux will never be alone together. We have discussed finding a new home for Tux, but given his past aggressive tendencies, we are concerned about this. We've also discussed placing him in a no-kill shelter, but I just haven't reached the point yet where I can do it. One thing is certain, though: When Jegan figures out how to use the security gate, Tux will no longer be a member of our household.

Please, no well-meaning advise on how to train Tux. We've hired professionals, taken him to special classes designed for aggressive dogs, and had a trainer come to our home. We've tried every method, including some that were unconventional and stressful for us and for Tux. 

I suppose I run the risk of a wrathful post about what awful monsters we are because we've raised an unruly dog and will now be putting him in a shelter. Judging by some of what I've read in this thread, I'm going to assume that others have made some of the very same ignorant mistakes that I made, in loving my dog *as if he were a person, not a dog*. Yes, we made a terrible mistake, and I feel horrible about it. Yet if anyone suggests that we should afford Tux the same level of care and committment (or anything even approaching it) that we owe to our son, I'll snicker politely and move right on with my life.


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## moore2me (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo,

I sympthasize with your plight on the doggie/and son dilemna. Unfortunately, people don't realize how dangerous dogs can be to small kids. (Dog bites are the third leading cause of injury to children.) And, a dog already in the home can view a new child as a subordinate pack member and treat the child like it would another dog. Then, if the child runs or squeals - this can bring out the prey instinct in the dog and horrible things happen. *Plus, kids are low to the ground (close to the dog's teeth)* and can be damaged more severely than an adult. A poodle bites my ankle (ouch!). A poodle bites a 2 year old's face (hundreds of stitches, maybe an eye injury). 
*
Then add in the mix, playmates*. I had a little pet dog that when I was in kindergarten. A playmate came over one day & we were playing in the backyard. I don't remember what happened, I was little and the attack was quick, but my dog attacked and mauled my playmate. The dog did not threaten me in any way, but he sure tore into my friend. My family had the dog put down before the end of the day, but the poor boy had to be hospitalized. My parents were lucky not to be sued along with everything else. My mom (a nurse) still doesn't trust dogs.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo - 

Loving my dogs as I do - I feel terrible that you have to make a decision like this. But - and this is a BIG BUT - even tho my dogs are my babies, they know who is boss. If you make the mistake (and it's an honest loving mistake) of treating your dog(s) like family and not making sure they know who is pack leader (you) your situation is a consiquence. And it's sad all around.

Pearlie (the doggie love of my life) was my baby but she went to puppy school, and we trained her to know who was boss - ME! That way there was no aggression and she listened.

Love your dog's with all your heart but love them enough to keep them in their place - they need to be disciplined it's part of the *pack* mentality.

Good luck Traci.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 29, 2008)

moore2me said:


> TraciJo,
> 
> I sympthasize with your plight on the doggie/and son dilemna. Unfortunately, people don't realize how dangerous dogs can be to small kids. (Dog bites are the third leading cause of injury to children.) And, a dog already in the home can view a new child as a subordinate pack member and treat the child like it would another dog. Then, if the child runs or squeals - this can bring out the prey instinct in the dog and horrible things happen. *Plus, kids are low to the ground (close to the dog's teeth)* and can be damaged more severely than an adult. A poodle bites my ankle (ouch!). A poodle bites a 2 year old's face (hundreds of stitches, maybe an eye injury).
> *
> Then add in the mix, playmates*. I had a little pet dog that when I was in kindergarten. A playmate came over one day & we were playing in the backyard. I don't remember what happened, I was little and the attack was quick, but my dog attacked and mauled my playmate. The dog did not threaten me in any way, but he sure tore into my friend. My family had the dog put down before the end of the day, but the poor boy had to be hospitalized. My parents were lucky not to be sued along with everything else. My mom (a nurse) still doesn't trust dogs.



I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove Moore. I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind.

But.

For every story such as this, people like me and Carrie who've been around dogs in different capacities (training, dog walking as a second job, volunteering, etc.) can tell stories of dogs who've saved their young owner's lives or alerted somebody to a fire or protected an owner from some other type of harm. I've encountered pit bull owners who allow their dogs to babysit the kids on the front lawn because they have 100% confidence in the dog's loyalty and protective nature towards their child. I once encountered a woman walking a pit bull where the pit's face and chest were covered in stitches; I asked her what happened and she told me a neighbor's dog had jumped their fence and attacked her toddler and her pit had gotten mauled herself fighting off the attacking dog. The woman told me when she'd been pregnant, tons of well meaning advice givers had told her she *had* to get rid of her pet; she said if she'd listen her child would be dead.


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## GWARrior (Jan 29, 2008)

When you get a dog, it becomes a member of your family. You become responsible for it, *just like you would a child*.

We teach our kids manners and good behavior. We should be doing the same with our pets.

Im so incredibly pissed off at the amount of bullshit I hear from pet owners. One lady wanted to have her shepard put down, simply because she couldnt take his wild behavior (because she never trained him). Theres the shihtzu that was thrown out of a car window, only because her owner didnt want a dog anymore. Or the chi mix whose head was smashed against the wall, because her owner didnt like her. Then there was the lhasa whose face became severly infected, but his owners couldnt be bothered to bring him to the vet (they really deserved a punch on the face).

WHEN YOU GET A DOG, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOG.

So yea. Im fucking PISSED OFF at the amount of people going out and buying a cute puppy (from fucking pet shops no less. Hey, lets support puppy mills!!), doting on it like it can do no wrong, and then simply disposing of it when it grows up and gets rowdy.

If you cant fucking take care of a dog, dont fucking get a dog.

Im done with this. My blood pressure is too high.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> Im done with this. My blood pressure is too high.



Then really, you need to cool down.

A dog is not a child, and it is nowhere near as important as a child. Period. The end. Anyone who suggests otherwise is... deluded. Seriously so.

Had I not had a child, I would not be in this position. And when I purchased my dog from a small, family operated pet shop that sold mutts and half-breeds (somehow, I don't think they were too interested in mill-farming the cute little animals they were selling for $5-$50), I had no way of knowing that I would have a child. 

I committed to my dog. I loved him, and I love him still. But my circumstances have changed, and I didn't commit to the detriment of my own health and well-being, or that of my child. Frankly, your attitude is astonishingly rigid, considering that we're not discussing pedophilia or elder abuse or young soldiers getting their limbs blown apart. I don't think that ANYONE is suggesting that it's OK to abuse an animal. I'm certainly not saying that what's happening with my own dog is just peachy. It sucks, and it's painful. And I acknowledge that I did not train him, early on, because I was IGNORANT of what treating a dog like a child would do to him ... not because I was an abusive, dog-hating piece of garbage. And if you read further, you'll see that I've spent a small fortune in getting professional training and advice, and many, many, MANY grueling hours in attempting to retrain my dog. Further still, you'll see that we WERE SUCCESSFUL in ridding him of many bad behaviors (hence, the training worked). Yet, I do not trust him with my small child because he still holds onto some troubling behaviors that CANNOT BE TRAINED OUT OF HIM ... and frankly, I'm not sure that they ever could have been, even if I had started early and hadn't made any mistakes with him.

I'm writing this because I know that I'm not alone. Many people have to make the agonizing decision to put the health and well-being of their children above that of the animal that was a part of their loving home. If you think that circumstances don't change, or that even if they do, the animal should always come first (because, after all, we made a committment to it) ... you're ... mistaken. 

My child has asthma and allergies, and although we're unsure that pet hair & dander is the cause (I won't subject him to the painful tests while he's still a baby), I do know that since we've kept Tux completely separated from him & confined to one area downstairs, we've witnessed far fewer incidents of cold symptoms and wheezing, and we've been able to cut back on nebulizing him with (potentially harmful) steroids. That is yet another concern we have. And we know of many people who had to find another home for their pets because ... gasp ... circumstances changed, and they became allergic to dander, or had children who were.

Obviously, you love animals with a strong passion & an obvious conviction. That's admirable. But you're missing the forest for the trees here, as my father used to say. Elevate an animal to the same status as a child, and you're sure to lose any kind of support you'd have received from otherwise like-minded people.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 29, 2008)

Traci-

I don't think she's equating humans and animals.

I think what GWarrior was saying is that when somebody gets an animal, they need to consider the animal's lifespan and ensure that they are able to make a commitment for that length of time.

Obviously you're saying you made an effort, and I don't think anyone is questioning that. But many people see animals as throway toys to be disposed of when no longer fun or cute or convenient. Those of us who've done shelter or rescue work see far too much of it, and I think it just strikes a chord with us.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

I was reacting to this, which was an obvious shot at me, especially since she's essentially reworded much of what I initially said & added a harsh value judgment to it:


GWARrior said:


> WHEN YOU GET A DOG, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOG.
> 
> So yea. Im fucking PISSED OFF at the amount of people going out and buying a cute puppy (from fucking pet shops no less. Hey, lets support puppy mills!!), doting on it like it can do no wrong, and then simply disposing of it when it grows up and gets rowdy.
> 
> If you cant fucking take care of a dog, dont fucking get a dog.



I truly do love my dog, and this decision is agonizing. I've felt paralyzed for a long time, and have been discussing this issue with Dims & other friends since before Jegan became a member of our family. We started the initial retraining with Tux when we first found out that we were going to become parents (Jegan's birth mother was 5 months pregnant with him). We've known for a long time now that it's not going to work. We don't trust Tux. We do not believe that he would harm us, and he never has ... but we cannot be certain that he won't harm Jegan. 

I don't work in rescue organizations like you & GWarrior do, but I'd like to believe that cases that have been cited are exceptions. Most of us do love our pets, we understand that they are our responsibility, and we do the best we can (and make some very bad mistakes based on ignorance, just as parents do). Having said that, things can and do change, despite our best intentions. I'd walk through fire to save my child, and there's not a thing in the world he could do that would make me consider giving him up. But my dog is not my child, and much as I am loathe to do it, I *have* to give him up. 

I've seen some pretty harsh things said to Moore2me, in this thread and in another related one. I've seen nothing said on her part that merits such vitriol (well, except advising people that it's OK not to treat their animals ... sorry Moore, but I agree that this probably wasn't the best advise to give, though I understand your intent).


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## Lamia (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> This one resonates with me. I've had my dog for 9 years. He's a mixed breed (more commonly referred to as a mutt ) but I purchased him from a pet shop as an 8-week-old puppy. He was adorable ... black, with white trim on his paws and under his neck (hence, the name Tux). I loved him like a child, and ignorantly treated him like one. Tux was allowed free run of the house. He slept in the same bed with my husband and I. For years, we spent countless hours walking him, playing with him, grooming him, etc. I literally thought of Tux as my "baby" (and yeah, was pretty obnoxious about it). Tux isn't a baby. He's a dog. He's now an unruly, aggressive, misbehaving dog ... and it's our fault. My intentions were good, but I was operating under the mistaken assumption that my dog should be treated as I would a cherished human family member. I've since spent countless hours, and many hundreds of dollars, on professional training and intervention, as I cannot trust my aggressive & unpredictable dog near our toddler. With help, we've managed to curb many of his more disturbing behaviors. He no longer jumps on furniture, sleeps with us, leaves a room before us, growls at us when we attempt to correct a behavior, or displays other overtly dominant behaviors. However, there are two areas that no amount of training has improved: He will not allow us to go anywhere near his food bowl, and he snatches any food that is placed within his reach. Obviously, we have concerns about him snatching Jegan's food right out of his chubby little hands, and taking a finger in the process. And Tux will not back down when he sees what he perceives as threatening behavior towards me (Jerry standing over me when I'm in bed and talking to me sets him off ... as do any behaviors on Jerry's part that he sees as dominant). We have reached the end of our rope, emotionally and financially. Right now, Tux is kept downstairs at all times, while Jegan is gated in with us, upstairs. Tux is, obviously, very unhappy with this new arrangement. We love Tux, but there is no question that our child is more important ... period. And we have to consider Jegan's safety. What we're currently doing is working, only because Jegan is still too small to figure out how to get around the security gates. Once he figures that out, there is no way to ensure that he and Tux will never be alone together. We have discussed finding a new home for Tux, but given his past aggressive tendencies, we are concerned about this. We've also discussed placing him in a no-kill shelter, but I just haven't reached the point yet where I can do it. One thing is certain, though: When Jegan figures out how to use the security gate, Tux will no longer be a member of our household.
> 
> Please, no well-meaning advise on how to train Tux. We've hired professionals, taken him to special classes designed for aggressive dogs, and had a trainer come to our home. We've tried every method, including some that were unconventional and stressful for us and for Tux.
> 
> I suppose I run the risk of a wrathful post about what awful monsters we are because we've raised an unruly dog and will now be putting him in a shelter. Judging by some of what I've read in this thread, I'm going to assume that others have made some of the very same ignorant mistakes that I made, in loving my dog *as if he were a person, not a dog*. Yes, we made a terrible mistake, and I feel horrible about it. Yet if anyone suggests that we should afford Tux the same level of care and committment (or anything even approaching it) that we owe to our son, I'll snicker politely and move right on with my life.




Excellent post and this makes me think again that puppies are innatetly either alpha or omega personalities. I don't think that you did anything wrong with how you raised your dog. I think you chose a puppy that would have either been an alpha dog in his pack or ousted/killed by alpha male in pack. Some dogs never try to challenge or be dominant. I don't think there is a way to know when you have a puppy what kind of personality it's going to have. This is just my personal theory and I am not basing it on anything other than observation; and having been around and raised dogs my whole life. 

As to whether or not it's cruel to pen dogs. I think it's the size and quality of the pen. I have these friends who leave their dogs in a pet carrier when they aren't home, to me that's horrible. The dog gets out for walks and is put back in when they go to bed. The dog probably spends 75% of his life in that carrier. I think it'd be 10 times happier outside in a pen where it could move around and get fresh air. When I talk about my dad's dog living in a fenced in yard outside they think it's cruel. Yes it's very cruel...he only has two acres too run around in. 

I think small dogs are ok in the house, but large dogs in a house are a pain. My friend's had a lab in their house and they could never have knick knacks on anything because he'd walk by and wag his tail and wipe everything out. :doh: He learned this was a good way to get free food. If you forgot and sat your drink or food on the coffee table he'd walk up and down and swish it onto the floor. ..."my bad...num num num let me num num get that num hum for you" :eat1:


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## GWARrior (Jan 29, 2008)

and I would walk through fire to save my pets. My pets ARE my children.

I DO equate the lives of humans with the lives of animals, simply because WE ARE ANIMALS.

There are too many people in this world who throw away theirs pets because taking care of an animal just doesnt fit into their plans anymore. Work in the pet industry for a while and you might just change your mind.

So maybe I am deluded, but I will not apologize for it. I love animals more than anything on this Earth.


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## butch (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm curious (and not being antagonistic), for those of you who keep dogs outside, how do you avoid fleas? Even with the treatments out there like Frontline (which I know some animal experts think are too chemically damaging to dogs and cats) to prevent fleas and ticks, it is really easy in most parts of the US for dogs to pick up fleas and ticks.

I know first hand how horrible it is to lose a pet to lyme's disease, and that is another reason why I am loathe to keep any pet outside for long periods of time. My own dog got lyme's disease from a tick in January, and this was when she was already elderly and only went outside to use the bathroom and get some limited exercise. I couldn't afford to use Frontline year round, and so I didn't apply it in the winter months, and my dog had to suffer because of it.

So, if you live in an area where ticks are prevalent, please be smarter than I was, and keep your dog safe against ticks all year long, even if your dog is an indoor one, like mine was.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> and I would walk through fire to save my pets. My pets ARE my children.
> 
> I DO equate the lives of humans with the lives of animals, simply because WE ARE ANIMALS.
> 
> ...



Just curious - do you have children?


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## GWARrior (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Just curious - do you have children?



human children? Nope. And Ive never had the desire to have any.

*My furbabies are all i need.*


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> human children? Nope. And Ive never had the desire to have any.
> 
> *My furbabies are all i need.*



that explains A LOT.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 29, 2008)

Interesting thing. None of our dogs have fleas (they live outside) - we check them regularly and the Vet checks them too. However - Miss Dells our cat who never goes out of the house - has had a flea problem for about a year now that we just FINALLY got under control!! My guess is our house was infested before we moved in and poor Della picked them up. It has been a BITCH to get rid of them!! 

Note to anyone buying a house - unless you had it built - BUG BOMB BEFORE YOU MOVE IN!! Save yourself the trauma of fleas!!!!!!!! 


FWIW - I don't think Traci is doing anything wrong. Life is full of tough decisions. This is just one. It's sad - but so was putting my Pearlie to sleep. After that experience and agonizing over having to do that - I won't fault anyone who has to make a hard decision about what is best for your family and/or your pet. 




butch said:


> I'm curious (and not being antagonistic), for those of you who keep dogs outside, how do you avoid fleas? Even with the treatments out there like Frontline (which I know some animal experts think are too chemically damaging to dogs and cats) to prevent fleas and ticks, it is really easy in most parts of the US for dogs to pick up fleas and ticks.
> 
> I know first hand how horrible it is to lose a pet to lyme's disease, and that is another reason why I am loathe to keep any pet outside for long periods of time. My own dog got lyme's disease from a tick in January, and this was when she was already elderly and only went outside to use the bathroom and get some limited exercise. I couldn't afford to use Frontline year round, and so I didn't apply it in the winter months, and my dog had to suffer because of it.
> 
> So, if you live in an area where ticks are prevalent, please be smarter than I was, and keep your dog safe against ticks all year long, even if your dog is an indoor one, like mine was.


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## GWARrior (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> that explains A LOT.



thats really the best you can come up with?

its ok. im used to the ignorant questioning my lack of desire to have kids.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> that explains A LOT.



Traci I may be sticking my foot in here - but I don't think that' fair. Nor is it fair to condemn you. People treat animals like children for tons of reasons.

I just think this is a sad sad story and not to be second guesed.

I'll shut up now!


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> thats really the best you can come up with?
> 
> its ok. im used to the ignorant questioning my lack of desire to have kids.





I never wanted to have children - still don't. I really don't think it makes us *less* in any capacity - but I get crap too.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> thats really the best you can come up with?
> 
> its ok. im used to the ignorant questioning my lack of desire to have kids.



No, I'm not questioning your lack of desire for children at all. What I was suggesting was that since you don't have children, you can't possibly understand the difference between love for a child vs love for a pet. If you did understand that, you'd never judge me (or any other parent) for putting their child's welfare above that of the family pet.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> No, I'm not questioning your lack of desire for children at all. What I was suggesting was that since you don't have children, you can't possibly understand the difference between love for a child vs love for a pet. If you did understand that, you'd never judge me (or any other parent) for putting their child's welfare above that of the family pet.



This is so very very true. I adore my pets, have had lots of critters since I was a child. I was the kid who brought home injured kittens, squirrels, wild rabbits, etc. I was the one that sobbed when we saw one hit on the side of the road.

But, as much as I love animals, my love for them doesn't -- and can't -- compare to my love of my children. No judgment for those who don't have kids. It's just biology.


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## GWARrior (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> No, I'm not questioning your lack of desire for children at all. What I was suggesting was that since you don't have children, you can't possibly understand the difference between love for a child vs love for a pet. If you did understand that, you'd never judge me (or any other parent) for putting their child's welfare above that of the family pet.



I knew someone would come up with this. Why is it so hard to understand that I like animals way more than kids?


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> I knew someone would come up with this. Why is it so hard to understand that I like animals way more than kids?



It's not at all difficult to understand. YOU like animals way more than kids. There's nothing AT ALL wrong with how you feel, and I wasn't implying otherwise.

Parents love their children far, far more than they'll ever love an animal. That is also a fact. So when a child comes along, the pet is relegated to a new status. If the pet threatens the health or safety of the child in any way, the pet goes. The child is more important. That is reality.


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## moore2me (Jan 29, 2008)

butch said:


> I'm curious (and not being antagonistic), for those of you who keep dogs outside, how do you avoid fleas? Even with the treatments out there like Frontline (which I know some animal experts think are too chemically damaging to dogs and cats) to prevent fleas and ticks, it is really easy in most parts of the US for dogs to pick up fleas and ticks.
> 
> I know first hand how horrible it is to lose a pet to lyme's disease, and that is another reason why I am loathe to keep any pet outside for long periods of time. My own dog got lyme's disease from a tick in January, and this was when she was already elderly and only went outside to use the bathroom and get some limited exercise. I couldn't afford to use Frontline year round, and so I didn't apply it in the winter months, and my dog had to suffer because of it.
> 
> So, if you live in an area where ticks are prevalent, please be smarter than I was, and keep your dog safe against ticks all year long, even if your dog is an indoor one, like mine was.



Butch, Fleas, ticks, and chiggers (baby ticks) are endemic in our area too. I use a combo treatment on my dogs. 
(1)* First, lyme disease vaccines *(as part of their regular vaccination protocol) - I give these myself - the local ag coop sells the vaccine and syringes, 
(2) *Next, Preventatic Flea and Tic collars every 3 months*. (An amusing side note here, my rottie's neck is so big, the biggest collar they make will not fit him. We have to piece two collars together for him.), 
(3) *Next, Frontline administered every month on each dog's back.*, and
(4) *Sow grass near house with tick and flea killing pesticide granules*.,and
(5) *Dog baths every other week in the summer with medicated shampoo*.
(6) *Keep grass cut low in areas where the dogs are*. Ticks and chiggers really like high grass and will crawl up high grass and wait for a host animal to walk nearby.

Extra steps as needed.
(6) *Dust inside dog houses with Sevin Dust.*
(7) *Burn or dispose of dog's bedding periodically and get new (stuffed with cedar shavings).*
(8) We also tried *using guinea fowl to patrol our yard.* They will eat the ticks and chiggers and keep other pests at bay. Trouble is, our dogs ate the guineas, so that experiment failed. It worked while the guineas lasted tho. 

White tail deer ticks carry the lyme disease is our area, so we discourage the deer from coming too close to our house.


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## Ryan (Jan 29, 2008)

That thing is huge, dude. You're lucky homeless people haven't discovered it and started moving in.



Wayne_Zitkus said:


>


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## GWARrior (Jan 29, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> It's not at all difficult to understand. YOU like animals way more than kids. There's nothing AT ALL wrong with how you feel, and I wasn't implying otherwise.
> 
> Parents love their children far, far more than they'll ever love an animal. That is also a fact. So when a child comes along, the pet is relegated to a new status. If the pet threatens the health or safety of the child in any way, the pet goes. The child is more important. That is reality.



But its not my reality. I dont care for kids. If a child ever came into my life (certainly not via my crotch) and it was pestering my pet, the kid goes. My dog is my child. 

I know a bit more extreme than the general animal lover, but thats just how i am.


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> I knew someone would come up with this. Why is it so hard to understand that I like animals way more than kids?



Hey, in general I like animals way more than kids. Most kids are obnoxious little things -- except mine, which are angels.  OTOH, when it comes to my OWN kids, I put THEIR safety and health above that of my animals, despite how much I DO love my critters.

I think that's what Traci was getting at. When it's your baby/child it's a whole other thing that those who haven't had kids just can't understand. That's okay -- it doesn't make you a bad person or anything. There are lots of experiences other folks here have had that I haven't and I can't imagine those either.

But I know no parent who, after having animals, would say they love their animals more than their kids and would put their animals' safety above their kids. It's just non-biological. And we were all the ones whose pets were our "furkids". It's just... different once you have children.


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## Ryan (Jan 29, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> I knew someone would come up with this. Why is it so hard to understand that I like animals way more than kids?



I can understand. I like my animals more than I like other peoples' kids. Like, if my neighborhood was on fire and I had to choose between rescuing my cat and rescuing some neighbor kids, I'd save my cat.

I'm pretty sure I'll have kids some day. I'm not sure how they'll rate on my priority list when compared to my cats. I guess it depends on how intelligent and good at sports they are (the kids, not the cats).


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## moore2me (Jan 30, 2008)

Ryan said:


> I can understand. I like my animals more than I like other peoples' kids. Like, if my neighborhood was on fire and I had to choose between rescuing my cat and rescuing some neighbor kids, I'd save my cat.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'll have kids some day. I'm not sure how they'll rate on my priority list when compared to my cats. I guess it depends on how intelligent and good at sports they are (the kids, not the cats).



Ryan, make sure you have this discussion with you bride-to-be BEFORE you get married. I think this may be a deal breaker in the wedding vow area.

Also, why don't you do a little volunteer work around kids? Big brother? Or teaching a afternoon or summer sports or activity? Tutoring reading or math? You would not regret doing this and it be very rewarding.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 30, 2008)

moore2me said:


> Ryan, make sure you have this discussion with you bride-to-be BEFORE you get married. I think this may be a deal breaker in the wedding vow area.
> 
> Also, why don't you do a little volunteer work around kids? Big brother? Or teaching a afternoon or summer sports or activity? Tutoring reading or math? You would not regret doing this and it be very rewarding.



Why don't you let Ryan determine how he'd like to spend his spare time?

It never ceases to amaze me how when somebody says he or she doesn't like kids, somebody else comes along and *insists* that if only you spent some time around them, you'd feel differently.

Personally, I dislike kids. I have zero desire to be around them and make an effort to have them around me as little as possible. The last way in the world I would spend my time is tutoring them, it would make me fucking miserable.

If Ryan went out of his way to say he'd rescue his cats from a fire rather than rescuing kids, why the heck would you suggest he become a Big Brother?


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

Ryan said:


> I can understand. I like my animals more than I like other peoples' kids. Like, if my neighborhood was on fire and I had to choose between rescuing my cat and rescuing some neighbor kids, I'd save my cat.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'll have kids some day. I'm not sure how they'll rate on my priority list when compared to my cats. I guess it depends on how intelligent and good at sports they are (the kids, not the cats).



Ryan, I cracked up at your reaction to Wayne's picture. Tried to REP you, but couldn't 

Funny thing is, I can remember feeling just as you described above. I actually gave the matter some thought, before I had Jegan & Tux was my furbaby. I can remember thinking that I loved Tux so much, I'd put his welfare above some stranger's child. I can even remember having this conversation with my mother, who would laugh hysterically at me ... and I'd get angry and indignant that she just didn't get it. My parents didn't have pets; they had working animals. They treated them well, but in their minds, there was a very clear distinction between humans and animals. I figured that she just couldn't possibly understand that some of us love our pets just as much as parents love their kids.

I was wrong, as any parent could have told me (I just wouldn't have listened). That is not to detract from the very real love that we feel for our pets, but it's not comparable. At all. My entire focus, my purpose in life, everything that I am, want to be or could be ... has all shifted, and narrowed into one overriding goal: To ensure the safety, health, and happiness of my little boy. Nothing else matters more than that. No matter how much I love Tux, or how much I needed to make him my surrogate child, I always knew that there was a limit to how far I'd go for him. There is no limit with Jegan. I'd sacrifice my life. Hell, I'd sacrifice *your* life 

As much as you love your cats ... could you honestly say that you'd give your own life to save theirs? Really?


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> If Ryan went out of his way to say he'd rescue his cats from a fire rather than rescuing kids, why the heck would you suggest he become a Big Brother?



Uh, Ryan? My son is in need of a Big Brother  

BTW ... please don't think that I am implying that all people should love kids. I understand that not everyone feels the way that I do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a person who simply doesn't want offspring, or to tolerate someone else's. 

The *only* point that I was making was that the love between parent and child is not comparable to the love shared by owner and pet.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Uh, Ryan? My son is in need of a Big Brother
> 
> BTW ... please don't think that I am implying that all people should love kids. I understand that not everyone feels the way that I do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a person who simply doesn't want offspring, or to tolerate someone else's.
> 
> The *only* point that I was making was that the love between parent and child is not comparable to the love shared by owner and pet.



I don't think anyone is denying the strength of love between parent and child.

I think the difference here is that those of us without children, and who don't want them, are not comparing how we feel about pets vs. how we feel about children. 

I don't feel anything about "my children" since I don't have them, have never had them, and don't want them. For those of us who are Childfree by Choice, it's a moot point.

What ticks me off is when somebody insists that spending time around kids would somehow be good for you.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> What ticks me off is when somebody insists that spending time around kids would somehow be good for you.



I've got a better idea for you, LoveBHMS. Why not spend some quality time with the homeless guys who are camping out in Wayne's kennel?


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> I've got a better idea for you, LoveBHMS. Why not spend some quality time with the homeless guys who are camping out in Wayne's kennel?



If Sandie will come out and hypnotize me and read my tarot cards, I am so there.


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## GWARrior (Jan 30, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> I don't feel anything about "my children" since I don't have them, have never had them, and don't want them. For those of us who are Childfree by Choice, it's a moot point.
> 
> What ticks me off is when somebody insists that spending time around kids would somehow be good for you.




thank youuuu.

It would be like telling someone who really doesnt want to be around dogs, to go work with them.


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## _broshe_ (Jan 30, 2008)

Well, my Cow is penned, in a 6 acer field... but tat is par for the corse

I tend to think that particular nieghborhood would frown on finding a 300Lb cow crapping on thier lawn.

taking Holy Shit to the next level... She's figured a way out of her pen... how does she do that?


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## Shosh (Jan 30, 2008)

Well I love and adore children, and work with them as well, so if something was on fire etc, I would be saving the child, and it would be see ya later to the cat. Just how I feel.:bow:


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 30, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> What ticks me off is when somebody insists that spending time around kids would somehow be good for you.



Why would anyone do that? That's just crazy. It's almost like comparing kids to prune juice. "You may not like it but it's good for you." I don't think that's good for anyone.


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## Tina (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a number of childfree friends, and I think either option is just fine. Personally, I respect the self-awareness of the person who knows they are not interested in children, and do everything they humanly can not to have any. There are too many kids growing up unloved or in bad situations. Maybe if those who weren't as self-aware would have gotten with the program and had taken more precautions not to have kids, the world would be a better place. And frankly, I can totally relate to the person who likes aminals better than people. While I am very much a people person and truly take an interest in others, our dogs, cats, and other pets have no ulterior motives or agendas. There are some days I would much rather be around a pup than a person. Just in my opinion, I think all of the variations are just fine and there is no judgement here towards those who prefer their pets to people.


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## Jane (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo, I understand exactly what you mean.

Back in the sixties, my cousin's wife had two poodles. The poodles had weekly hair appointments and manicures. Then, after 15 years of marriage, they became pregnant (actually she did, which I feel is for the best). The next time I saw the poodles (a couple of years later), they looked like, well, dogs instead of Barbie dogs. I'm sure they couldn't imagine WHAT happened.


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## Jane (Jan 30, 2008)

GWAR...some people take care of kids and some take care of different animals (some dogs, some cats, etc.) and neither is better or worse.

Everyone/thing needs to be loved and respected.

I'm glad you are taking care of animals.

Some of us are doing damn good just to take care of ourselves.


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## GWARrior (Jan 30, 2008)

Im just so sick of the excuses I hear all the fucking time.

I honestly dont think having a baby is a justifiable reason to kick out the dog. Getting a pet (just like having a baby) is a life commitment. Its not about "hey, lets get a puppy, until something better comes along." 

But, if you can all live with the fact that the dog you raised and cared for may not be getting satisfactory treatment, or they're euthanized because they couldnt find a home, then go ahead and do it.

Then its the people in rescue who have to deal with it.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> Im just so sick of the excuses I hear all the fucking time.
> 
> I honestly dont think having a baby is a justifiable reason to kick out the dog. Getting a pet (just like having a baby) is a life commitment. Its not about "hey, lets get a puppy, until something better comes along."
> 
> ...



Do you even realize ... just how out of touch with reality ... that is? 

My dog is vicious and untrainable when it comes to any available food. This isn't just my assessment; it was the observation of the professional trainers who worked with Tux. If you know anything about small children, you will know that they like to toddle about with snacks and sippy cups and other messy treats (all highly attractive to dogs). If the opportunity arises for our dog to snatch a treat from our child, HE WILL TAKE IT (again, professional advice, given by trainers). If we're lucky, he'll just snag the food. Unlucky? A few fingers, maybe his entire hand. 

So, we're left with health & welfare of a child ... vs health and welfare of A DOG. Do you understand that? I mean, really ... do you??!?!? 

Are you perhaps suggesting that we shouldn't have had a child, because we made the "committment" to a pet? If so, I guess ... I'm just aghast. Incredulous, even. That's just ... wow. Speechless.


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## GWARrior (Jan 30, 2008)

Maybe, if you were wanting to have children, you shouldve trained him to be less wild.

But like I said, if youre ok not knowing whats gonna happen to him, do it.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> Maybe, if you were wanting to have children, you shouldve trained him to be less wild.
> 
> But like I said, if youre ok not knowing whats gonna happen to him, do it.



Maybe, if you're that knowledgeable of dogs, you'd understand that some characteristics are INBRED and cannot be trained OUT of certain animals. 

And maybe you should run, not walk, to the nearest reality clinic and dose yourself heavily with a few get a freakin' clue shots.


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## mossystate (Jan 30, 2008)

Gwar..there is a HUGE difference between a person who has a flippant attitude concerning an animal..and one who has to make a VERY difficult decision. I know that the issue of killing animals for meat is not the issue here..however..even you are not pristine in that you do believe in divinding up what animals are worthy of drawing another breath. I realize I am blending issues here, but, they are all connected, especially when you are accusing a person of being some kind of monster. When my Mom was a little girl, her dad asked if she wanted to raise the runt of a litter of pigs. They lived on a farm and he was not going to be able to spend the time taking care of the piglet. My Mom loved that pig ( name was Jeffy ). She dressed him up, pushed him around in a baby stroller..but..when the little pig became a big pig...he went to market. A pet became food....why?..a difficult decision had to be made. Now, you might say.." hey, they lived on a farm..why not let the pig live out his days, even though other animals, like silly chickens, were killed for food..Jeffy was a pet ".Why?...because they did not have the means to feed an animal like that..not past a certain age. Ok, I am rambling a bit..but I am just amazed that you cannot see that life situations do change. I have my Mom's cat. She asked me to take him, while on her deathbed. As much as I love Bucky, if there was some situation where I had to make a very difficult decision between him and, let's say, one of my young nieces or nephews?...I would have to go with the human..those particular humans. My Mom was an animal lover...big time...but she would do the same. 

Ok..kind of all over the place..as is my way..but...a small child is to be placed above the family pet...the end.


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## GWARrior (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Maybe, if you're that knowledgeable of dogs, you'd understand that some characteristics are INBRED and cannot be trained OUT of certain animals.
> 
> And maybe you should run, not walk, to the nearest reality clinic and dose yourself heavily with a few get a freakin' clue shots.



yes, yes, we've established that i have mental issues. get new material.

and yes, different breeds have definate behaviors and traits. but that does not mean they can't be trained and taught how to behave.

just another reason why people should do some serious research before getting a pet (but this must not in right now, since very few people actually do it)


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## Jack Skellington (Jan 30, 2008)

Love me, love my pets or piss off. That's my motto.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 30, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> If Sandie will come out and hypnotize me and read my tarot cards, I am so there.



My going rate is $100.00 for an hour for the hypnosis and $50.00 for a half hour tarot reading. If you can pay that I'm in. 


BTW - I don't like kids either - I never have. I knew that and knew I never wanted to have kids. I think being honest with yourself about what you want and don't want where kids are concerned stops people from having kids they don't want. I wish more people would be honest with themselves.

And yes - in a fire I would save animals first before children. Why do I love animals more than people? Very simple animals are unconditional love and no animal has ever hurt me the way people have.


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## GWARrior (Jan 30, 2008)

Ok, so maybe I should let you in on my past experiences... just so you know where my supposed mental illness is coming from.

When I was smaller (maybe 5), my family adopted a kitten. A cute little black and white kitten. We named her Sheba and I adored her. Unfortunately, Sheba had some bladder issues and my parents decided not to keep her. They told me that they had brought her to the shelter, to find another home. I find out years later that *they brought her to the vet and had her put to sleep.* A fucking kitten.

A few years later, when I was really into horses, my parents got me a horse. Her name was Knickers, and she was about 20 years old. She was stubborn, old and didnt really do much except wander around barnyard with the goats. I rode her once in a while, brushed her, fed her... but then I became a teenager and I wasnt so interested anymore. Then the feeding and cleaning became Dad's job. And then the hay got a little more expensive. So we placed an ad in the paper and gave her away. I was crying the whole time, my best friend was leaving me. The woman who was taking her said she would be in a lovely new home, with other horses to live out the rest of her days. I gave her my address and she said she would send pictures of my Knickers in her new home. 

I never heard from them. I have no idea what happened to my horse. All I have left of her is a picture. One single fucking picture. I still think about her and cry. For all we know, she was probably made into dog food that week.

So maybe I am fucked in the head. Maybe I feel responsible my horse being taken away. 

But I really dont give a fuck what other people think. I am going to defend animals and their right to a good life, until I fucking die.

so just deal with it.


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## mossystate (Jan 30, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> And yes - in a fire I would save animals first before children. Why do I love animals more than people? Very simple animals are unconditional love and no animal has ever hurt me the way people have.




I hope that you are never in a burning building..crying for help..and you turn to your right and see someone come in to grab their pet..look at you...shrug..and say " good luck ". No matter how you might say that you would understand, trust me, in that moment, you will feel nothing but sheer terror and confusion.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Maybe, if you're that knowledgeable of dogs, you'd understand that some characteristics are INBRED and cannot be trained OUT of certain animals.
> 
> And maybe you should run, not walk, to the nearest reality clinic and dose yourself heavily with a few get a freakin' clue shots.



TraciJo that's uncalled for. I wonder if you have thought of a muzzle when the baby is around the dog??


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> yes, yes, we've established that i have mental issues. get new material.
> 
> and yes, different breeds have definate behaviors and traits. but that does not mean they can't be trained and taught how to behave.
> 
> just another reason why people should do some serious research before getting a pet (but this must not in right now, since very few people actually do it)



Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote about hiring trainers and bringing my dog to obedience classes, working with him, being successful at curbing most of the destructive behaviors, yada yada yada. Or maybe, you'd just rather overlook all of that so that you can continue to vent your anger and frustration on ME, a discernible target, rather than the collective of people that you're really angry and frustrated with. Just a thought.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 30, 2008)

mossystate said:


> I hope that you are never in a burning building..crying for help..and you turn to your right and see someone come in to grab their pet..look at you...shrug..and say " good luck ". No matter how you might say that you would understand, trust me, in that moment, you will feel nothing but sheer terror and confusion.



I honestly don't care what you think.


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## Suze (Jan 30, 2008)

My family got a puppy when I was 9.The first 2 years were okay, but suddenly I got problems breathing when I was around here and my eyes were swollen and itched all the time. It was so bad that I developed serious asthma because of her and couldn’t function like normal kids.
We had here outside for a while but that wouldn’t work in the long run. She missed us badly and whined all the time. I had so much guilt, but it really wasn’t my fault. Fortunately she was given to someone who took good care of her.
She was also the main reason why I developed several other allergies later that I still struggle with today. 

My point is that sometimes humans _need_ to come before dogs. Just don’t chose “the easy solution” and I have no problems accepting that.

edit: I'm so damn happy that my mom gave me a dog that was (so-called) allergy free one year later. Can't live without them :wubu:


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## GWARrior (Jan 30, 2008)

susieQ said:


> My family got a puppy when I was 9.The first 2 years were okay, but suddenly I got problems breathing when I was around here and my eyes were swollen and itched all the time. It was so bad that I developed serious asthma because of her and couldnt function like normal kids.
> We had here outside for a while but that wouldnt work in the long run. She missed us badly and whined all the time. I had so much guilt, but it really wasnt my fault. Fortunately she was given to someone who took good care of her.
> She was also the main reason why I developed several other allergies later that I still struggle with today.
> 
> My point is that sometimes humans _need_ to come before dogs. Just dont chose the easy solution and I have no problems accepting that.




Its great that you found her a great home, but something I want to keep repeating is that unfortunately most dont find good homes.


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## mossystate (Jan 30, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I honestly don't care what you think.



*L*..ok...that's cool...guess I should have not quoted you and made my comment sound more of what it actually was...a general heads up to those who make such comments....carry on.


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## Suze (Jan 30, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> Its great that you found her a great home, but something I want to keep repeating is that unfortunately most dont find good homes.



If you know the people and trust them (and they have the experience) the dog should be fine. It's sad if people don't bother to make that effort. I seriously don't get why they wouldn't


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 30, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> Its great that you found her a great home, but something I want to keep repeating is that unfortunately most dont find good homes.



That is the sad truth. And I do believe that adopting an animal is a life long commitment. But the truth is a lot of people do not feel that way. Like my sister. She gets pets - gets rid of them, over and over. I hate that she does this but they are like toys to her. 

My babies are with us until they breath their last. Miss Della is 13 - Peanut is 12 and our baby boy Beau is just over a year. I love them all dearly and would never consider giving them up.


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

Jane said:


> TraciJo, I understand exactly what you mean.
> 
> Back in the sixties, my cousin's wife had two poodles. The poodles had weekly hair appointments and manicures. Then, after 15 years of marriage, they became pregnant (actually she did, which I feel is for the best). The next time I saw the poodles (a couple of years later), they looked like, well, dogs instead of Barbie dogs. I'm sure they couldn't imagine WHAT happened.



... But they were probably immensely grateful, nonetheless


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## moore2me (Jan 30, 2008)

GWARrior said:


> Ok, so maybe I should let you in on my past experiences... just so you know where my supposed mental illness is coming from.
> 
> When I was smaller (maybe 5), my family adopted a kitten. A cute little black and white kitten. We named her Sheba and I adored her. Unfortunately, Sheba had some bladder issues and my parents decided not to keep her. They told me that they had brought her to the shelter, to find another home. I find out years later that *they brought her to the vet and had her put to sleep.* A fucking kitten.
> 
> ...



*I applaud your zeal in animal rights. May I make a suggestion? One effective way of defending the rights of animals is through legislation. Some people are organizing groups and trying to get city codes and county codes passed that will further protect dogs and cats. A good example is in the city of Albuquerque, New Mexico. http://www.cabq.gov/pets/HEART_FAQs.html
http://www.cabq.gov/pets/*




Sandie_Zitkus said:


> TraciJo - I wonder if you have thought of a muzzle when the baby is around the dog??



*Sandie, Muzzles work some of the time, but a muzzled dog can still inflict damage. My chow has grand mal epileptic seizures. I dont muzzle him when he seizes, but, his feet are dangerous when he is having an attack. He doesnt know what hes doing, but he scratches and paws with great vigor and frequency. My chow has scratched me and hubby many times while we are trying to help him (he seizes about once a month). I imagine a muzzled dog, could hurt a child in the same fashion.*


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 30, 2008)

moore2me said:


> Sandie, Muzzles work some of the time, but a muzzled dog can still inflict damage. My chow has grand mal epileptic seizures. I dont muzzle him when he seizes, but, his feet are dangerous when he is having an attack. He doesnt know what hes doing, but he scratches and paws with great vigor and frequency. My chow has scratched me and hubby many times while we are trying to help him (he seizes about once a month). I imagine a muzzled dog, could hurt a child in the same fashion.[/B]



The so-called 'humane' muzzles that allow dogs to breathe and drink are not designed to stop dogs from biting. They only restrict how far the dog can open his mouth, but in order for the dog to pant & breathe properly, the muzzle has to allow some wiggle room for an open mouth ... which is a bite risk. We used a muzzle with a lead while training Tux. It is intended to be a short-term training aid, not a permanent solution, and it's never sold with a guarantee that the dog won't or can't bite. 

It would take only one time ... one moment of leaving Jegan unsupervised, or Tux escaping his area and catching us unaware ... just one time, and we could be facing the horror of living with a severely injured and/or permanently maimed child. Or worse.


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2008)

moore2me said:


> Ryan, make sure you have this discussion with you bride-to-be BEFORE you get married. I think this may be a deal breaker in the wedding vow area.



My girlfriend knows how much I love cats. She loves them, too (liking cats is actually one of my requirements for potential significant others). I'm sure she'll understand. We agree on the values we will teach any offspring and we _won't_ be giving them any metrosexual or wuss names. That will give them a better start in life than most kids these days.



moore2me said:


> Also, why don't you do a little volunteer work around kids? Big brother? Or teaching a afternoon or summer sports or activity? Tutoring reading or math? You would not regret doing this and it be very rewarding.



Why do I need to do volunteer work? I would think that what one finds rewarding is subjective to the individual. Besides; what if I spend a whole bunch of my precious free time teaching some kid to read and play baseball and then he dies in a fire while I'm saving my cat?


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> Ryan, I cracked up at your reaction to Wayne's picture. Tried to REP you, but couldn't
> 
> Funny thing is, I can remember feeling just as you described above. I actually gave the matter some thought, before I had Jegan & Tux was my furbaby. I can remember thinking that I loved Tux so much, I'd put his welfare above some stranger's child. I can even remember having this conversation with my mother, who would laugh hysterically at me ... and I'd get angry and indignant that she just didn't get it. My parents didn't have pets; they had working animals. They treated them well, but in their minds, there was a very clear distinction between humans and animals. I figured that she just couldn't possibly understand that some of us love our pets just as much as parents love their kids.
> 
> ...



Would I be willing to risk my life to save my cat? Yes. But that doesn't mean I'd go on a "suicide mission"; like where the building was about to collapse and there was zero chance of me surviving. 

But I don't actually hate kids. I just care more about my cat than I do _other peoples' kids_. I wouldn't be surprised if I was a father some day, and I'll love and protect my kids as long as they don't suck at life.


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## mossystate (Jan 30, 2008)

Ryan Seacrest...hey....just sayin....


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2008)

TraciJo67 said:


> I've got a better idea for you, LoveBHMS. Why not spend some quality time with the homeless guys who are camping out in Wayne's kennel?



Or old people. Some of them wear diapers, so it's almost like taking care of a kid.


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## LoveBHMS (Jan 30, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by moore2me
> Also, why don't you do a little volunteer work around kids? Big brother? Or teaching a afternoon or summer sports or activity? Tutoring reading or math? You would not regret doing this and it be very rewarding.





> Why do I need to do volunteer work? I would think that what one finds rewarding is subjective to the individual. Besides; what if I spend a whole bunch of my precious free time teaching some kid to read and play baseball and then he dies in a fire while I'm saving my cat?



Effing hysterical.


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2008)

mossystate said:


> Ryan Seacrest...hey....just sayin....



What about him?


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## Miss Vickie (Jan 31, 2008)

Gwar, I appreciate your honesty and openness about your experience with animals and why it brings you to where you are today. Having gone through that of COURSE you have no patience with people who treat animals as though they were disposable creatures; my parents were the same way, taking our extra cats to the country and dumping them off. I still have nightmares about "forgetting" I have animals and starving them to death. It's very painful. 

But I think while we agree that those situations are HORRID, that's not what's happening with Traci. She's not, at the first hint of a problem, dumping the dog at the pound. She started working with her dog BEFORE she brought her baby home because he'd had some aggression problems before. She has continued to work with him -- while protecting her child, which is her primary obligation. 

Sometimes, as parents, what's best for our child isn't the same as what's best as what's best for an animal. An example in my own case is Maggie, a dog I adopted from a local rescue organization. She *adored* Burt and I but *HATED* my kids. She continued to snap at them, drawing blood, and backed my son into a corner; on car trips if she saw kids outside the door she tried to get THROUGH my car to get to the kids. 

Now we're not talking about a wee dog here -- she is a French Bullmastiff. She could have killed him, or my girls, easily. We tried for several weeks, had trainers in, talked to the rescuing organization, etc. Nobody was able to make a difference and the behavior became worse over time, despite trying various theories of doggie psychology; unfortunately, Cesar Millan doesn't make house calls to Alaska! 

Because of her size, strength and lack of training there was NO controlling her. It broke our hearts but we had to give her back to the rescue organization and they since found a home for her -- a home WITHOUT kids and WITHOUT other animals. And she is thriving. But something happened in her past that made a relationship between her and kids impossible. But I still remember the day we had to give her up. Burt and I both sobbed (we still get weepy thinking about it) and we had only had her three weeks! She had found a place into our hearts that quickly.

This was a case where I had to put the welfare and safety of my kids above anything else; thank GOODNESS the rescue organization found her a great home and we've since rescued two dogs who love kids and are perfect for our family. Sometimes as pet owners we have to make painful decisions, though, and I feel that in no way does that put us in the same category as the scumbags who don't give a rat's ass, who refuse to spay or neuter their pets and just dump them out.

We try, but ya know.... we're just human. Critter loving humans, but... human.


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## moore2me (Jan 31, 2008)

*I think we should go into the issue of human rights vs. animals rights in more detail, 
especially when dealing with pets and children. 
I have opened a new Thread in Hyde Park for this discussion.
I think this issue goes way beyond dog pens. 

Thanks. Moore2me*​


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 31, 2008)

LMFAO!!!!!!!! Ryan you sick Basted!!!:blink:




Ryan said:


> My girlfriend knows how much I love cats. She loves them, too (liking cats is actually one of my requirements for potential significant others). I'm sure she'll understand. We agree on the values we will teach any offspring and we _won't_ be giving them any metrosexual or wuss names. That will give them a better start in life than most kids these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I need to do volunteer work? I would think that what one finds rewarding is subjective to the individual. Besides; what if I spend a whole bunch of my precious free time teaching some kid to read and play baseball and then he dies in a fire while I'm saving my cat?


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## TraciJo67 (Jan 31, 2008)

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> And yes - in a fire I would save animals first before children. Why do I love animals more than people? Very simple animals are unconditional love and no animal has ever hurt me the way people have.



Were this to actually happen, Sandie ... and you chose to rescue animals before children ... that would make you one of the most reviled people in our history. A few notches below Andrea Yates, but a hairs-breadth above Osama Bin Laden and George "Dubya" Bush. 

On the bright side, though ... PETA reps could visit you in jail


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## Sandie_Zitkus (Jan 31, 2008)

So? You say that like it's a bad thing.




TraciJo67 said:


> Were this to actually happen, Sandie ... and you chose to rescue animals before children ... that would make you one of the most reviled people in our history. A few notches below Andrea Yates, but a hairs-breadth above Osama Bin Laden and George "Dubya" Bush.
> 
> On the bright side, though ... PETA reps could visit you in jail


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## Shosh (Jan 31, 2008)

Ryan said:


> My girlfriend knows how much I love cats. She loves them, too (liking cats is actually one of my requirements for potential significant others). I'm sure she'll understand. We agree on the values we will teach any offspring and we _won't_ be giving them any metrosexual or wuss names. That will give them a better start in life than most kids these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I need to do volunteer work? I would think that what one finds rewarding is subjective to the individual. Besides; what if I spend a whole bunch of my precious free time teaching some kid to read and play baseball and then he dies in a fire while I'm saving my cat?




Looks like I have got no chance with you then, because I have never liked cats, and I will be honest about it.
A child or a cat? Who to save in a fire? No comparison. The cat would be history.:bow:


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## Tina (Jan 31, 2008)

Miss Vickie said:


> Because of her size, strength and lack of training there was NO controlling her. It broke our hearts but we had to give her back to the rescue organization and they since found a home for her -- a home WITHOUT kids and WITHOUT other animals. And she is thriving. But something happened in her past that made a relationship between her and kids impossible. But I still remember the day we had to give her up. Burt and I both sobbed (we still get weepy thinking about it) and we had only had her three weeks! She had found a place into our hearts that quickly.


I'm no expert. Can't count the times, though, when I saw on the Animal Planet show about the Animal Cops, how any animal (usually it was a dog) who could not pass the series of tests having to do with socialization and aggression having to be euthanized so that they were not a danger to those adopting the animal. I don't see why someone, whether it's Traci or not, whose animal behaves in an aggressive manner -- especially towards the person's child/ren -- should get shit for protecting their child. 

As I said before, I'm all for people who are childfree and want to remain that way. That is their choice, their lives, and none of my business. Again, I am _grateful_ for that self-awareness. The fact is, though, that not having children, it's hard to understand just even how much stronger the bond between parent and child usually is than the one between person and pet, even if your pet is, to you, your baby. It's a biological imperative that (though while seemingly missing from some deplorable parents' biological make up), cannot be explained until you feel it. Not only is it the duty of a parent to protect their child/ren, but it's a reflex and instinct too strong to deny or resist. This, of course, does not address the callous, ignorant idiots who treat pets like property with no feelings and who adopt and then get rid of animals time after time, almost like re-arranging furniture or changing paint colors. Those people are, IMO, deplorable and despicable.


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## DeniseW (Jan 31, 2008)

wow, as much as I love animals and belong to a million rescue groups and the ASPCA, Humane Society, Peta, etc....I'm shocked anyone would say they'd let children die in a fire and save animals instead. I hope it was a joke(albeit not a particularly funny one)


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