# Any Other BHM's trying to lose weight?



## michiganbhm

I know I might get killed for asking lol but I've dropped 10 pounds in two weeks and I'm wondering if anyone else here is trying to lose weight.

If you have (or are) dropping lbs, let me know what your diet/exercise is. I'd love to hear some feedback.


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## Hozay J Garseeya

michiganbhm said:


> I know I might get killed for asking lol but I've dropped 10 pounds in two weeks and I'm wondering if anyone else here is trying to lose weight.
> 
> If you have (or are) dropping lbs, let me know what your diet/exercise is. I'd love to hear some feedback.



Over the past two years I've dropped about 100 pounds. I didn't exactly start exercising I just started eating "healthier." I made a change in my eating habits; cut out the soda, If I REALLY craved it I'd get a Perrier (I realized it was the carbonation in my throat I really liked not necessarily the sugar.) I drink about 4-6 liters of water a day on average I made sure I started eatingy greens. Lots of spinach and kale, also cooked at home a lot more instead of eating out. I'm still around 300 lbs but I feel good. I love how I feel now compared to myself at the 400lb mark. I'm still just as sexy though.


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## ManBeef

Same here. I cut soda. Starting lifting. eating healthier. Some P90X too. I've dropped 65lbs in less than a year. It feels a lot better. I even look better imo


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## bigrich711

I lost 75 pounds in 2009 and kept it off. Now, in 2012, I've gained 50 pounds back. I've quit drinking that damn Mt. Dew. I'm going to start the P90X stuff in a few days. I'm ready to lose it for good. My brother is in the army, so he's giving me advice straight from his nutritionist.


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## captaincane99

There's an iphone app called tap & track that does a pretty good job of calorie counting, without a subscription cost or any sanctimonious bs.


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## Wanderer

Heh... I lose weight all too easily, thanks to the leg muscles from years of being a pedestrian. I'm approaching 250, and trying to _gain!_  :eat1:


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## ODFFA

Hozay J Garseeya said:


> Over the past two years I've dropped about 100 pounds. I didn't exactly start exercising I just started eating "healthier." I made a change in my eating habits; cut out the soda, If I REALLY craved it I'd get a Perrier (I realized it was the carbonation in my throat I really liked not necessarily the sugar.) I drink about 4-6 liters of water a day on average I made sure I started eatingy greens. Lots of spinach and kale, also cooked at home a lot more instead of eating out. I'm still around 300 lbs but I feel good. I love how I feel now compared to myself at the 400lb mark. I'm still just as sexy though.



Brave posts, guys! Very impressive too. BHMs wanting to loose a few to be more comfortable in their own skins, while not getting all hollywood-obsessive & remaining big & handsome = some serious respect!


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## Sasquatch!

Wanderer said:


> Heh... I lose weight all too easily, thanks to the leg muscles from years of being a pedestrian. I'm approaching 250, and trying to _gain!_  :eat1:



Oh man. Life must be so difficult for you.


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## samuraiscott

I am having some serious issues with my weight; at least as far as my happiness with it goes. I think I am going to try to take some of it off.


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## cakeboy

I've lost a bit over a hundred pounds. I've always been strong and active but I've found myself on the cusp of some very serious health issues in the past two years, so I weighed the scientific evidence and had gastric bypass surgery 10 days ago. I'll never be thin, but i hope to avoid a lifetime of crippling and fatal disease. It was a very tough decision but I'm confident and hopeful


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## CastingPearls

Best of luck to everyone struggling. 


I've lost 365 in five years. No surgery. It's possible. Do what you think is best for YOU but don't do anything stupid or extreme like I did.


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## likeitmatters

*I am very curious with regards to losing weight. have you found the ones that were interested in you when you were larger and now that you lost weight do you find they do not talk to you much or avoid you all together?

:wubu:*


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## bigpapi4u

i'm trying to lose some weigt due to bad circulation on my legs they were turning black but my problem is i have a low metabolism because i did not ate right sometimes i did just one meal a day and im supposed to eat like 6 times now im walking daily 1 hour and eating better i already lost 6 pounds


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## BigWilliamUK

Im trying too but it's a hell of a fight, I have had medical advice and was told I was'nt eating or drinking enough, what I was eating was no good for me I needed to change my diet fullstop and increse exercise . Originally this was going well but then i got a dvt in my leg and cellulitus and became deeply depressed that put a stop to things but I am starting to get better and I do eat better now and hopefully the weight will start to come off again.


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## BigWilliamUK

CastingPearls said:


> Best of luck to everyone struggling.
> 
> 
> I've lost 365 in five years. No surgery. It's possible. Do what you think is best for YOU but don't do anything stupid or extreme like I did.



Wow welldone thats great.


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## Bearsy

I've recently realized that I don't want to lose weight, per se.
As it turns out, I actually really like being a big guy. 
What I don't like is being _fat_, that is to say huge and not fit in any way.
So lately I've taken up an exercise regimen intending to convert my adipose into muscle mass.
Not trying to go roidfreakmode but I am going for that strongfat aesthetic.





Still a big dude, but not a blubbery mess which I personally feel like I am right now.


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## CastingPearls

likeitmatters said:


> *I am very curious with regards to losing weight. have you found the ones that were interested in you when you were larger and now that you lost weight do you find they do not talk to you much or avoid you all together?
> 
> :wubu:*


My ex-husband didn't want me to lose weight even though my life depended on it. He became controlling and the more weight I lost, the worse it got until he assaulted me and I left him. We were married ten years. Marital counseling didn't help because he refused to talk. So now I go to therapy alone and am much happier and healthier without him.

Also, an ex-boyfriend who've I've remained close to for 15 years isn't happy about my weight loss and has virtually stopped talk to me.


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## Goreki

CastingPearls said:


> My ex-husband didn't want me to lose weight even though my life depended on it. He became controlling and the more weight I lost, the worse it got until he assaulted me and I left him. We were married ten years. Marital counseling didn't help because he refused to talk. So now I go to therapy alone and am much happier and healthier without him.
> 
> Also, an ex-boyfriend who've I've remained close to for 15 years isn't happy about my weight loss and has virtually stopped talk to me.


What?!? But you've got a killer body!


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## CastingPearls

And I'm not even thin nor do I intend to be. :bow:


Thanks.


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## likeitmatters

Goreki said:


> What?!? But you've got a killer body!




but one must also face that will be or may lose some long time friends. Everybody has their likes and dislikes and I cannot fault them but I also think you could be large and healthy if you work out or at the very least walk everyday which I do. Let your body dictate what is a good weight for ya and you will possibly stablize at that weight.


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## Mordecai

I am trying to get a bit healthier, if I lose weight I do if I don't but regain some lost stamina = awesome.


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## Goreki

likeitmatters said:


> but one must also face that will be or may lose some long time friends. Everybody has their likes and dislikes and I cannot fault them but I also think you could be large and healthy if you work out or at the very least walk everyday which I do. Let your body dictate what is a good weight for ya and you will possibly stablize at that weight.



If I gained a lot of weight, I'd expect to keep all my longtime friends. Same if I lost a lot. If my weight was what dictated if people spent time with me or not, I'd be more than happy to lose them as friends. Because it is a shitty way to treat someone, and CP definitely doesn't to be treated like that. AND she looks amazing whatever her size.


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## Sasquatch!

likeitmatters said:


> but one must also face that will be or may lose some long time friends. Everybody has their likes and dislikes and I cannot fault them but I also think you could be large and healthy if you work out or at the very least walk everyday which I do. Let your body dictate what is a good weight for ya and you will possibly stablize at that weight.



In that scenario, you'd also have to face up to the fact that you make really shitty "friends". Any relationship, be it romantic or platonic, based purely on someone's physical size isn't one I'd say is worth keeping.


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## RabbitScorpion

My weight has been a "roller coaster" most of my life, losing and gaining back (or more) several times. My BMI has been as low as 13 (41 years ago) and as high as 51 (19 years ago). 
These days, I'm 100 pounds less than that peak, but still 100 pounds more than I am "supposed" to weigh (really folks, how many 5'10" men in America do you know that weigh 154 or less?).
I've been pretty good and keeping my lunch to less than 400 calories during the workweek and avoiding snacks with calories, but finding it harder to hold the line at and after dinner, especially now that I am under more stress, and the people around me are bringing me to places with fattening food.
I'm not judging anyone else about weight, I just would like to take some of it off myself. When I'm heavier than a certain weight, I feel less endurance for climbing, walking or bicycling. As I get older, that "certain weight" seems to be less and less.


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## Tracyarts

My husband has been slowly losing weight and improving his fitness level for the past several months. He was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, which has really affected his knees, ankles, and feet. The treatment regimen he's currently on is preventing further damage, but can't reverse what has already been done. Losing weight is taking some of the pressure off of the damaged joints and making it less painful for him to walk and stand, especially when he has a flare-up. Also, the medication he's on causes fatigue, so improving his fitness level is helping him shake off the effects and have more energy and stamina. 

I am losing weight and getting fit to improve my own mobility and health as well. We're in it together, and supporting each other along the way so that we can both be more active and in less pain. The goals we set aren't based on weight or appearance, but on being able to do more of the things we want to do. 

Tracy


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## Wanderer

Sasquatch! said:


> Oh man. Life must be so difficult for you.



Sarcasm noted.  Unfortunately, my family's low on funds,so I can't eat as much as I'd like. Instant ramen or a few scrambled eggs for breakfast, usually no lunch, and dinner is whatever we're all sharing...and anyting split five ways isn't very filling.

Apparently I'm down to about 250 these days...


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## topher38

Well back in Nov. I was 410 pounds now I am down to 326. I have cut out soda eating better and my new love Hiking has helped a lot.


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## escapist

topher38 said:


> Well back in Nov. I was 410 pounds now I am down to 326. I have cut out soda eating better and my new love Hiking has helped a lot.



That is awesome man! I know when I fell in love with hiking it helped me get down to 415ish as well. I have some foot problems now but man do I want to get back to it. 

Did you work out to train for it or did you just start hiking?


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## topher38

escapist said:


> That is awesome man! I know when I fell in love with hiking it helped me get down to 415ish as well. I have some foot problems now but man do I want to get back to it.
> 
> Did you work out to train for it or did you just start hiking?




Well I do train some weight training, and finding the right shoes, well I have 2 different pairs. I wear on the type of trails I will be on. and a good pack, but I slowly worked my way up to my first goal, that was hiking up a mountain, my next one is to go to Black Mesa Oklahoma and walk up the tallest point in Oklahoma.


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## Marky85

I keep saying to myself that I want to drop 40lbs but never have the motivation to really do it. Some days I feel like I should start losing weight other days I feel like gaining more


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## blackcaesarbhm

I've recently lost ten pounds by walking, lifting weights and jumping rope..


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## loopytheone

My BHM is trying to lose weight at the moment, just by getting a little bit of walking done every day. He's doing really well at getting more active and I'm really proud of him.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Dropped approximately 120 pounds and 14" from my waistline over the last year and a halfish. Gained a decent amount of muscle and strength at the same time. No easy task. One thing I will tell you, you cannot out train a shitty diet. At least 80% of fat loss is how you eat. Honestly, you can lose all the fat you want, relatively fast, without ever training. Of course, I do recommend training and improving fitness, but it isn't necessary for fat loss. And counting calories is bullshit. I range from 6,000 to 10,000 kcal/day. Never had to starve myself. That will end up making you weak and you will rebound. On left I was at a tight fitting 62" waste, the others at 48" waste that requires a belt to not fall down, also with an inside the waste band full size .45 taking up some of that space. 

View attachment loss.jpg


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## LeoGibson

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Dropped approximately 120 pounds and 14" from my waistline over the last year and a halfish. Gained a decent amount of muscle and strength at the same time. No easy task. One thing I will tell you, you cannot out train a shitty diet. At least 80% of fat loss is how you eat. Honestly, you can lose all the fat you want, relatively fast, without ever training. Of course, I do recommend training and improving fitness, but it isn't necessary for fat loss. And counting calories is bullshit. I range from 6,000 to 10,000 kcal/day. Never had to starve myself. That will end up making you weak and you will rebound. On left I was at a tight fitting 62" waste, the others at 48" waste that requires a belt to not fall down, also with an inside the waste band full size .45 taking up some of that space.



Good job fella. Congrats.

I recently re-hung my heavy bag and I have my first 'bell on order. I took other folks advice and got the 35 lb. one to start, they all said it isn't about the weight, it's the exercises you do with them. Everyone said I should start there and build up to the heavier ones, I hope that's true, 35 lbs. doesn't seem like it would be heavy enough for much benefit. I'm hoping to get some conditioning and better flexibility to ease some arthritis and old ROM injuries so that if all goes well, I can resume training sometime in the early summer for amateur powerlifting. I haven't trained since '04 and I would like to get back into it.


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## fritzi

Geodetic_Effect said:


> On left I was at a tight fitting 62" waste, the others at 48" waste that requires a belt to not fall down, also with an inside the waste band full size .45 taking up some of that space.



Oh dear ... you've definitely wasted away .... and it's particularly visible in the waist.....


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## Geodetic_Effect

fritzi said:


> Oh dear ... you've definitely wasted away .... and it's particularly visible in the waist.....



lol, I don't know how I use the correct one at the beginning and then fuck it up later on. I blame lack of sleep. Rep for pointing it out.


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## Geodetic_Effect

LeoGibson said:


> Good job fella. Congrats.
> 
> I recently re-hung my heavy bag and I have my first 'bell on order. I took other folks advice and got the 35 lb. one to start, they all said it isn't about the weight, it's the exercises you do with them. Everyone said I should start there and build up to the heavier ones, I hope that's true, 35 lbs. doesn't seem like it would be heavy enough for much benefit. I'm hoping to get some conditioning and better flexibility to ease some arthritis and old ROM injuries so that if all goes well, I can resume training sometime in the early summer for amateur powerlifting. I haven't trained since '04 and I would like to get back into it.



35lb is definitely want you want to start with. It does depend on what you do with it though. Master swings first, even with a 35 they will kick your ass. Kettlebell snatches are amazing for conditioning, that's what I am doing in the photo with a 53lb bell. I always have that and an 18lb bell in my car for impromptu training sessions.


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## Surlysomething

You look great. Congrats on getting healthier!



Geodetic_Effect said:


> Dropped approximately 120 pounds and 14" from my waistline over the last year and a halfish. Gained a decent amount of muscle and strength at the same time. No easy task. One thing I will tell you, you cannot out train a shitty diet. At least 80% of fat loss is how you eat. Honestly, you can lose all the fat you want, relatively fast, without ever training. Of course, I do recommend training and improving fitness, but it isn't necessary for fat loss. And counting calories is bullshit. I range from 6,000 to 10,000 kcal/day. Never had to starve myself. That will end up making you weak and you will rebound. On left I was at a tight fitting 62" waste, the others at 48" waste that requires a belt to not fall down, also with an inside the waste band full size .45 taking up some of that space.


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## escapist

topher38 said:


> Well I do train some weight training, and finding the right shoes, well I have 2 different pairs. I wear on the type of trails I will be on. and a good pack, but I slowly worked my way up to my first goal, that was hiking up a mountain, my next one is to go to Black Mesa Oklahoma and walk up the tallest point in Oklahoma.



I gotta say that pretty bad @$$.


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## escapist

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Dropped approximately 120 pounds and 14" from my waistline over the last year and a halfish. Gained a decent amount of muscle and strength at the same time. No easy task. One thing I will tell you, you cannot out train a shitty diet. At least 80% of fat loss is how you eat. Honestly, you can lose all the fat you want, relatively fast, without ever training. Of course, I do recommend training and improving fitness, but it isn't necessary for fat loss. And counting calories is bullshit. I range from 6,000 to 10,000 kcal/day. Never had to starve myself. That will end up making you weak and you will rebound. On left I was at a tight fitting 62" waste, the others at 48" waste that requires a belt to not fall down, also with an inside the waste band full size .45 taking up some of that space.



FREAKING HELL MAN! That's Awesome! I'm in the tight 62" zone myself and I just messed my back up camping with my kids. I switched to low carb to try and drop some weight since working out is restricted for me now. Once I get the feeling back in my left leg I'll try hitting weights again. I gotta say your post is a bit inspirational.


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## Cobra Verde

Haha, no.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Glad to give any inspiration I can. Just keep at it. Focus your mind and your body will follow. 




escapist said:


> FREAKING HELL MAN! That's Awesome! I'm in the tight 62" zone myself and I just messed my back up camping with my kids. I switched to low carb to try and drop some weight since working out is restricted for me now. Once I get the feeling back in my left leg I'll try hitting weights again. I gotta say your post is a bit inspirational.


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## bigmac

I just got a new gym membership. I've lost a lot of strength over the last couple of years I've been away from training. I need to rebuild some muscle mass now. I'm almost 50 years old and figure the next few years are my last chance to actually build muscle mass. After that it will just be about preventing muscle loss.


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## escapist

Thanks Geo, and your right...its little things every day that are making the difference. I recently found a fantastic guide to bodyweight conditioning (which I'm a huge fan of). A few years ago I got up to doing 200 pushups which sounds cool, but really I was just building stamina at that point not strength. Now I know how to continue the progression and keep gaining strength. My room-mate another semi BHM (he's no longer in the 300+ club) turned me onto a book called "Convict Conditioning". It has the complete progression for 6 major body strengthening workouts. Starting at wall pushups which pretty much anybody can do at phase one down to phase 10 which is a 1 handed pushup! The progression is super simple and makes so much sense I feel stupid for not seeing it before. Anyways just thought I would share cause like Geo I believe in Fitness more than Weightloss.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Great book, I have that, Convict Conditioning 2, and the 5 volume DVD series in my library, which is expansive. I'm also more concerned about fitness, but, I have to cut weight to fight. And again, losing fat is all about food. 




escapist said:


> Thanks Geo, and your right...its little things every day that are making the difference. I recently found a fantastic guide to bodyweight conditioning (which I'm a huge fan of). A few years ago I got up to doing 200 pushups which sounds cool, but really I was just building stamina at that point not strength. Now I know how to continue the progression and keep gaining strength. My room-mate another semi BHM (he's no longer in the 300+ club) turned me onto a book called "Convict Conditioning". It has the complete progression for 6 major body strengthening workouts. Starting at wall pushups which pretty much anybody can do at phase one down to phase 10 which is a 1 handed pushup! The progression is super simple and makes so much sense I feel stupid for not seeing it before. Anyways just thought I would share cause like Geo I believe in Fitness more than Weightloss.


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## escapist

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Great book, I have that, Convict Conditioning 2, and the 5 volume DVD series in my library, which is expansive. I'm also more concerned about fitness, but, I have to cut weight to fight. And again, losing fat is all about food.



Hot Damn Bro! What style? I keep toying with the idea myself but I'm getting pretty old for it. My younger brother says he might go for the UFC if I train him. He is already in shape but needs to work on his skills, he's not a little guy and I think has a good shot still in his early 30's. I wouldn't be ready for at least a year or 2 because like you said the weight is an issue. I'll have to look for the DVD's. The best part is I got my kids to start doing some of the conditioning with me! Super excited about that.


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## loopytheone

Okay boys, I've been trying to restrain myself from coming over all mother hen but I can resist no longer! All I want to say is *be careful* with all that exercising! I know you know what you are doing and stuff but make sure to warm up your muscles properly and take good care of yourselves and don't overwork yourselves!

...I know you don't need me to tell you both that but I fell better now. ^^


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## Geodetic_Effect

MMA. I still have plenty of work to do to get there, but I train with good people. This is one of the people I spar with. 

Link to download Convict Condition DVD's



escapist said:


> Hot Damn Bro! What style? I keep toying with the idea myself but I'm getting pretty old for it. My younger brother says he might go for the UFC if I train him. He is already in shape but needs to work on his skills, he's not a little guy and I think has a good shot still in his early 30's. I wouldn't be ready for at least a year or 2 because like you said the weight is an issue. I'll have to look for the DVD's. The best part is I got my kids to start doing some of the conditioning with me! Super excited about that.



"Achieving greatness happens when you are willing to do something that will KILL you, just to make you better." 

Overtraining



loopytheone said:


> Okay boys, I've been trying to restrain myself from coming over all mother hen but I can resist no longer! All I want to say is *be careful* with all that exercising! I know you know what you are doing and stuff but make sure to warm up your muscles properly and take good care of yourselves and don't overwork yourselves!
> 
> ...I know you don't need me to tell you both that but I fell better now. ^^


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## escapist

loopytheone: Thank's unfortunately what you suggest isn't something you can really teach lol. When your young you can get away with a fast warm-up, when your older like me you usually pay the price if you don't warm-up. I made the mistake of dropping to "cold splits" not to long ago showing off and I hadn't done the splits in a long time. I paid the price. I'm not in my 20's anymore and I feel it. In the end you know, if you work out regularly your body will tell you the level of warm-up you need.

I know certain people who would like to see me go MMA. Long ago I got introduced to a famous UFC fighter before he became famous. He became very close friends with my Sensei and Room-mate. They keep bugging me to go train with him but I keep finding excuses not to (not to mention I don't think he's really at his school here much anymore). Still a tempting thought, maybe I'll see where I'm at when I drop down to 350ish.


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## loopytheone

Geodetic_Effect said:


> "Achieving greatness happens when you are willing to do something that will KILL you, just to make you better."
> 
> Overtraining



Well that is that guy's opinion on overtraining. You would have to be stupid to think that you CAN'T injure yourself by working out too much or too hard. Your joints and your bones have their physical limits before your mind does, that is all that I am saying. I am speaking as somebody who has joint problems throughout my body that I have made worse in the past by pushing past the pain and exhaustion barriers. I know you are probably a lot more sound in bone construction than me, all I am saying is don't hurt yourself. ...also, you might want to not link that video to people. I for one find having a man calling me mother fucker repeatedly offensive, as well as being told that unless I go to extremes with exercise then I must be extremely lazy and unwilling to exercise. There is such a thing as moderation with exercise, it isn't an all or nothing type thing and you get benefits from doing maybe an hour a day of moderate with some intense exercise instead of pushing yourself too hard.

Anyway, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this~

Though it probably wouldn't have killed you to be polite to me, considering that all I did was care enough to be concerned about you.



escapist said:


> loopytheone: Thank's unfortunately what you suggest isn't something you can really teach lol. When your young you can get away with a fast warm-up, when your older like me you usually pay the price if you don't warm-up. I made the mistake of dropping to "cold splits" not to long ago showing off and I hadn't done the splits in a long time. I paid the price. I'm not in my 20's anymore and I feel it. In the end you know, if you work out regularly your body will tell you the level of warm-up you need.



That is true! But if you listen to your body and are sensible about it then I'm sure you will do just great! ^_^


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## Geodetic_Effect

Moderation in exercise is fine if you are satisfied with mediocrity. Not a single champion in history was concerned with overtraining or working too hard. They were willing to die to reach their goals. That attitude is exactly why they became champions. 




loopytheone said:


> Well that is that guy's opinion on overtraining. You would have to be stupid to think that you CAN'T injure yourself by working out too much or too hard. Your joints and your bones have their physical limits before your mind does, that is all that I am saying. I am speaking as somebody who has joint problems throughout my body that I have made worse in the past by pushing past the pain and exhaustion barriers. I know you are probably a lot more sound in bone construction than me, all I am saying is don't hurt yourself. ...also, you might want to not link that video to people. I for one find having a man calling me mother fucker repeatedly offensive, as well as being told that unless I go to extremes with exercise then I must be extremely lazy and unwilling to exercise. There is such a thing as moderation with exercise, it isn't an all or nothing type thing and you get benefits from doing maybe an hour a day of moderate with some intense exercise instead of pushing yourself too hard.
> 
> Anyway, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this~
> 
> Though it probably wouldn't have killed you to be polite to me, considering that all I did was care enough to be concerned about you.


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## bigmac

loopytheone said:


> Okay boys, I've been trying to restrain myself from coming over all mother hen but I can resist no longer! All I want to say is *be careful* with all that exercising! I know you know what you are doing and stuff but make sure to warm up your muscles properly and take good care of yourselves and don't overwork yourselves!
> 
> ...I know you don't need me to tell you both that but I fell better now. ^^



Didn't listen -- overdid it a bit on Friday -- still a bit sore. Getting old sucks.


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## Sasquatch!

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Moderation in exercise is fine if you are satisfied with mediocrity. Not a single champion in history was concerned with overtraining or working too hard. They were willing to die to reach their goals. That attitude is exactly why they became champions.



Not to rain on your _awesome parade_, but that's bullshit.

Sure, they're at the top. They're at the top DESPITE overtraining and working too hard. Of course you don't hear of all the potential champions who've taken exactly the same route and fucked themselves in the ass.

But whatever. I'm not about to tell you how to train or how often because it's your body. . .


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## Geodetic_Effect

Yes, lots of people fail in the process. But, doing it any other way will not result in success. Fear of failure is no reason to stop or slow down. 




Sasquatch! said:


> Not to rain on your _awesome parade_, but that's bullshit.
> 
> Sure, they're at the top. They're at the top DESPITE overtraining and working too hard. Of course you don't hear of all the potential champions who've taken exactly the same route and fucked themselves in the ass.
> 
> But whatever. I'm not about to tell you how to train or how often because it's your body. . .


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## Sasquatch!

I'll remember that when testing my latest gliding suit.


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## Geodetic_Effect

The guys that wingsuit basejump definitely don't let fear of failure stop them or slow them down. I will be doing it at some point in the future.

http://youtu.be/oB7nX-FT1Gs



Sasquatch! said:


> I'll remember that when testing my latest gliding suit.


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## BigChaz

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Moderation in exercise is fine if you are satisfied with mediocrity. Not a single champion in history was concerned with overtraining or working too hard. They were willing to die to reach their goals. That attitude is exactly why they became champions.



This made me laugh out loud. Is that a quote from a movie or something? Sounds like something Will Ferrel would say right before he does something crazy.


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## djudex

BigChaz said:


> This made me laugh out loud. Is that a quote from a movie or something? Sounds like something Will Ferrel would say right before he does something crazy.



http://youtu.be/v81osfu1K0o?t=32s


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## loopytheone

bigmac said:


> Didn't listen -- overdid it a bit on Friday -- still a bit sore. Getting old sucks.



Well I'm only 23 and it happens to me sometimes as well! I think it is always tempting to push that little bit too much because you always feel great when you are doing it... it is the day after when the muscles start to ache! I'm sure you will recover in no time though and be feeling refreshed!


----------



## Tad

loopytheone said:


> Well I'm only 23 and it happens to me sometimes as well! I think it is always tempting to push that little bit too much because you always feel great when you are doing it... it is the day after when the muscles start to ache! I'm sure you will recover in no time though and be feeling refreshed!



That is the part of getting older that sucks--you don't feel better in no time. At 23 yah, over do it, feel a bit sore the next morning, then move on. At twice that age, over-do it, feel sore and tired the whole next day, feel even more sore the day after, begin to feel better the third day and really back at full bounce by the fourth.  (granted, depending on how much you over do it). I suppose that if I see another 23 years I'll probably just feel sore and tired all the time and will look back whistfully on the days when it only happened when I'd overdone things


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Arnold is the man.



djudex said:


> http://youtu.be/v81osfu1K0o?t=32s


----------



## loopytheone

Tad said:


> That is the part of getting older that sucks--you don't feel better in no time. At 23 yah, over do it, feel a bit sore the next morning, then move on. At twice that age, over-do it, feel sore and tired the whole next day, feel even more sore the day after, begin to feel better the third day and really back at full bounce by the fourth.  (granted, depending on how much you over do it). I suppose that if I see another 23 years I'll probably just feel sore and tired all the time and will look back whistfully on the days when it only happened when I'd overdone things



Ah, well, I guess I can't say how it works when you get older, being quite young myself! I know it takes a few days for me to get back to strength even now so I dread to think how long it will take me when I'm older! =p


----------



## DKnight00

Not really big, but seeing you guys talk about training, I guess I'll add mine in. I am off an on with working out, but I do what a bit more muscle, so I get up at 5am each morning to work out for about an hour before work... everytime I try to do it after work it just doesn't happen.

If I don't wake up in the morning and get right to it, I don't feel up to it after work.. except if all I've been doing for a week or two is working out.. then I'm in "the zone" or whatever and keep at it no matter what time of the day it is.

Need to buy a new punching bag.. was thinking of getting the ones that are not attached to the ceiling, but has a stand that it hangs from, starting from the ground and looping up. Has anyone else tried those bags here before ? If so any good ???


----------



## LeoGibson

Just finished my first kettlebell workout and found out two things. I am not in near as good of condition as I thought, and these damn things will work you unmercifully. I had big plans of an introductory circuit of 4 exercises for 5 rounds of 20 reps then 60-90 seconds of rest. It wound up being obvious that 3 rounds of ten reps with 120 seconds of rest in between were the best I could do today. Now I know what I have to work towards. My legs feel like jelly and I'm still lightly sweating over an hour after finishing. I'm so glad I went with the 35 lb. bell. It truly isn't about the poundage for a conditioning workout. I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!


----------



## bigmac

BigChaz said:


> This made me laugh out loud. Is that a quote from a movie or something? Sounds like something Will Ferrel would say right before he does something crazy.



Made me think of the movie DodgeBall -- wherein Vince Vaughn's "Average Joe's" gym competed against "Globo-Gym" Ben Stiller's big budget gym across the street.

The BBW cheerleader was so sexy.

http://ozini.com/?p=4541


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Good work. Kettlbells can be brutal. A good interval to start with on swings is 60 sec work/ 60 sec rest, for 5 - 10 rounds. If you can't get 5 rounds just increase the rest interval. Then when you can bang out 10, increase the work interval. Eventually work it down to no rest interval. It helps if you do it one handed and switch hands at the top each rep, saves your grip.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Oh, and that montage cuts off Arnold before the best part. 

http://youtu.be/5cvLHouSMOM



djudex said:


> http://youtu.be/v81osfu1K0o?t=32s


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

http://youtu.be/FK_LQtc0ALQ


----------



## bigmac

Did full squats for the first time in a while today -- followed by deadlifts -- and then a couple more sets of squats. Went back to the office to answer some emails -- when it came time to stand up again I discovered my legs were mush. Guess you could call that a good workout.


----------



## loopytheone

bigmac said:


> Did full squats for the first time in a while today -- followed by deadlifts -- and then a couple more sets of squats. Went back to the office to answer some emails -- when it came time to stand up again I discovered my legs were mush. Guess you could call that a good workout.



Haha, well you were definitely working those muscles then! =p Just take care when you are doing the squats that you don't damage or strain your knee joint at all. Because it is extremely unpleasant, I can tell you!


----------



## bigmac

loopytheone said:


> Haha, well you were definitely working those muscles then! =p Just take care when you are doing the squats that you don't damage or strain your knee joint at all. Because it is extremely unpleasant, I can tell you!



I'm careful to maintain good form (I never use weights so heavy I can't maintain good form). Its been my experience that squats can actually strengthen your knees. I'm almost 50 and have never had any knee problems (knock on wood).

This afternoon I'm planning to do some toddler tossing. My 4 year old is leaning to bodyboard -- she can't yet kick fast enough to catch waves effectively -- so I stand in about waist deep water tell her to hold on to her board and toss her and her board into the wave as it breaks (the secondary near shore break -- she's still way too small to be going out into the primary break). After an hour or so this gets pretty tiring.


----------



## The Fat Man

I'm working out, three or four times a week, just general upkeep. I'll always be bigger, always but a little time on the treadmill and some weights just make me feel better.

Health > losing weight.


----------



## loopytheone

bigmac said:


> I'm careful to maintain good form (I never use weights so heavy I can't maintain good form). Its been my experience that squats can actually strengthen your knees. I'm almost 50 and have never had any knee problems (knock on wood).
> 
> This afternoon I'm planning to do some toddler tossing. My 4 year old is leaning to bodyboard -- she can't yet kick fast enough to catch waves effectively -- so I stand in about waist deep water tell her to hold on to her board and toss her and her board into the wave as it breaks (the secondary near shore break -- she's still way too small to be going out into the primary break). After an hour or so this gets pretty tiring.



Sounds like you have it all sorted! =) That's awesome! I know I just get wary about such things because I have bad knee joints and have to be super careful with things and I just worry that other people's joints will get damaged from doing the same things. Haha, aww, that is a very cute form of toddler tossing! I bet that keeps you fit and she must love it!



The Fat Man said:


> I'm working out, three or four times a week, just general upkeep. I'll always be bigger, always but a little time on the treadmill and some weights just make me feel better.
> 
> Health > losing weight.



I am the same! I will always be a big girl but I do cardio and weights for about an hour and a half every other day just to keep myself strong and healthy. I'm glad you working out for the best reasons!


----------



## The Fat Man

Thanks! Workin' on it at least, heh.


----------



## BigWheels

Yeah, I've had to rework my diet, for health reasons. Somehow, my weight stayed 415-ish (+/- 5lbs) but I have had the worst bloodwork results ever.

Diabetes, cholesterol, everything in the bad range, so I have done a quick food adjustment, low sugar, high protein, carbs early in the day, cutting back on coffee, etc...

Now I just need to get moving again. I think now that the winter is over, I can get back outside & moving around (ice scares the hell outta me).


----------



## loopytheone

BigWheels said:


> Yeah, I've had to rework my diet, for health reasons. Somehow, my weight stayed 415-ish (+/- 5lbs) but I have had the worst bloodwork results ever.
> 
> Diabetes, cholesterol, everything in the bad range, so I have done a quick food adjustment, low sugar, high protein, carbs early in the day, cutting back on coffee, etc...
> 
> Now I just need to get moving again. I think now that the winter is over, I can get back outside & moving around (ice scares the hell outta me).



Sounds like you have had a wake up call then! I think you will probably lose weight as you get healthier but I think you have a great goal of trying to look after your body better and get everything back to normal in the bloods and such. I am sure you will do great as well! 

...we totally need some sort of daily exercise thread type thing for this board so we can all encourage each other! ^^


----------



## Sasquatch!

loopytheone said:


> Sounds like you have had a wake up call then! I think you will probably lose weight as you get healthier but I think you have a great goal of trying to look after your body better and get everything back to normal in the bloods and such. I am sure you will do great as well!
> 
> ...we totally need some sort of daily exercise thread type thing for this board so we can all encourage each other! ^^



/give something for loopy to perve over


----------



## BigWheels

Sasquatch! said:


> /give something for loopy to perve over



it's not often I'm the subject of the perving though...LOL:wubu: Loopy!


----------



## loopytheone

Sasquatch! said:


> /give something for loopy to perve over





BigWheels said:


> it's not often I'm the subject of the perving though...LOL:wubu: Loopy!



Dammit I've been rumbled! xD


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> http://youtu.be/FK_LQtc0ALQ



This video "The Powerlifting Mentality" provides a dangerous example. The guys in this video are lifting massive weights with terrible form and often over only a limited range of motion.

I'm all for high intensity training -- however, IMHO what we're seeing on this video is not actually high intensity training. If the weight you're using precludes the performance of multiple reps with a full range of motion you're using too heavy a weight.

This video is about ego not training.


----------



## BigWheels

Poor form is always a bad idea (as my trainer reminds me OFTEN).

Strength is the ability to generate force under given conditions 

which means, the bigger you are, the stronger you are IF you can move. 

However, do you notice you get out of gas pretty quick? 

This is a highly simplified classification of strength:
maximum strength,
explosive strength , and
strength endurance.

It's a fact: respectable strength gains can only be built with high-resistance, low rep exercises that impose high levels of tension on the muscles.

:bow:Which means that you have the ability to become stronger just by adjusting the weight distribution. :bounce: slow & steady wins this one all.

And if you need more help figuring out the weight distribution thing, let me know. I'm a 400+ guy, so depending on your weight & range of motion, it may be different. But a push-up or squat is still exercise, but you can make it heavier by doing sumo style squats or an inclined push-up.

But make sure you see a doctor if you feel like you are hurt. At a larger size, we can actually do alot more damage with a simple training accident than you could imagine. Hernias, ripped muscles (the bad kind), even broken bones due to the weight shifting & falling wrong.


----------



## WhiteHotRazor

It's competition lifting not training. You also have to remember the majority of these guys are on some type of performance enhancing drugs.


----------



## WhiteHotRazor

BigWheels said:


> Strength is the ability to generate force under given conditions
> 
> which means, the bigger you are, the stronger you are IF you can move. However, do you notice you get out of gas pretty quick?
> 
> This is a highly simplified classification of strength:
> maximum strength,
> explosive strength , and
> strength endurance.
> 
> It's a fact: respectable strength gains can only be built with high-resistance, low rep exercises that impose high levels of tension on the muscles.
> 
> :bow:Which means that you have the ability to become stronger just by adjusting the weight distribution. :bounce: slow & steady wins this one all.
> 
> Quoting FDR, Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. :doh:
> 
> And if you need more help figuring out the weight distribution thing, let me know. I'm a 400+ guy, so depending on your weight & range of motion, it may be different. But a push-up or squat is still exercise, but you can make it heavier by doing sumo style squats or an inclined push-up.



Agreed....


----------



## bigmac

BigWheels said:


> Poor form is always a bad idea (as my trainer reminds me OFTEN).
> 
> Strength is the ability to generate force under given conditions
> 
> which means, the bigger you are, the stronger you are IF you can move.
> 
> However, do you notice you get out of gas pretty quick?
> 
> This is a highly simplified classification of strength:
> maximum strength,
> explosive strength , and
> strength endurance.
> 
> *It's a fact: respectable strength gains can only be built with high-resistance, low rep exercises that impose high levels of tension on the muscles.*
> 
> :bow:Which means that you have the ability to become stronger just by adjusting the weight distribution. :bounce: slow & steady wins this one all.
> 
> And if you need more help figuring out the weight distribution thing, let me know. I'm a 400+ guy, so depending on your weight & range of motion, it may be different. But a push-up or squat is still exercise, but you can make it heavier by doing sumo style squats or an inclined push-up.
> 
> But make sure you see a doctor if you feel like you are hurt. *At a larger size, we can actually do alot more damage with a simple training accident than you could imagine. *Hernias, ripped muscles (the bad kind), even broken bones due to the weight shifting & falling wrong.



I'm not disagreeing with the premise that to add strength and muscle mass you have to use heavy weights and low reps. However, you can do this without sacrificing good form and maximum range of motion. And by the way low reps means less than 10 -- not just one or two. 

I agree with you that large people lifting heavy weights can suffer really bad injuries. All the more reason to follow weight training best practices. On the flip side large people have the most to gain via weight training. As heavy people age mobility often becomes a problem. Added strength and muscle mass minimizes this loss of mobility. However, these gains are lost if weight training results in injury.

Bottom line -- never try to lift any weight that you cannot lift using good form for at least several repetitions.


----------



## BigWheels

bigmac said:


> I'm not disagreeing with the premise that to add strength and muscle mass you have to use heavy weights and low reps. However, you can do this without sacrificing good form and maximum range of motion. And by the way low reps means less than 10 -- not just one or two.
> 
> I agree with you that large people lifting heavy weights can suffer really bad injuries. All the more reason to follow weight training best practices. On the flip side large people have the most to gain via weight training. As heavy people age mobility often becomes a problem. Added strength and muscle mass minimizes this loss of mobility. However, these gains are lost if weight training results in injury.
> 
> Bottom line -- never try to lift any weight that you cannot lift using good form for at least several repetitions.



No,no,no,no...

I am talking about USING your OWN body weight as the weight. No plates, kettlebells, (or excuses)... just our natural self. Weight distribution

We naturally carry this weight, so why not make it work FOR US rather than against us?


----------



## LeoGibson

bigmac said:


> This video "The Powerlifting Mentality" provides a dangerous example. The guys in this video are lifting massive weights with terrible form and often over only a limited range of motion.
> 
> I'm all for high intensity training -- however, IMHO what we're seeing on this video is not actually high intensity training. If the weight you're using precludes the performance of multiple reps with a full range of motion you're using too heavy a weight.
> 
> This video is about ego not training.



Ok, I'm going to attempt to give a concise response that is not a flamethrow. But it would probably takes several pages to adequately respond to this. 

Actually in this video I only saw a couple of instances of form breaking down and that was when lifts were missed. In fact, proper form and range of motion are a big part of the judging on whether a lift fails or succeeds in a meet.

When training, there are so many different concepts that you have to throw at the body to address sticking points throughout the lift that sometimes in training you will narrow down certain parts of the ROM to work on those areas.

What you were seeing on this video was elite level training and competition lifts from highly accomplished lifters. They never could have gotten near the levels they achieved if they were using poor form as you called it. They were using accepted and proven methods through years of scientific research to achieve those lifts. It is easily out there for you to research if you aren't inclined to believe me and if you are interested enough. Google Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, Westside Barbell, Charles Poliquin, Testosterone Magazine or T-Mag for short. Those are but just a few places you can find all kinds of scientific data to back up what is going on in this video. This type of lifting is not for the guy or gal that just wants to be fit and strong and healthy as you age. It is extreme and tough and requires a killer mindset and toughness like you wouldn't believe. It is dangerous and not for everybody.



BigWheels said:


> .....It's a fact: respectable strength gains can only be built with high-resistance, low rep exercises that impose high levels of tension on the muscles.
> 
> :bow:Which means that you have the ability to become stronger just by adjusting the weight distribution. :bounce: slow & steady wins this one all.
> 
> And if you need more help figuring out the weight distribution thing, let me know. I'm a 400+ guy, so depending on your weight & range of motion, it may be different. But a push-up or squat is still exercise, but you can make it heavier by doing sumo style squats or an inclined push-up....



If what you are saying is that you can make significant strength gains from bodyweight exercises, you are just plain wrong. No other way to say it.

Bodyweight exercises are great for general health and fitness and getting in shape. They are good for losing fat and being fit overall, but they will not do much for building muscle or adding to strength, except perhaps in the case of someone who has never trained or is coming back from many years of not training. You may see a slight benefit in the beginning however those gains woll be small and short-lived. To move on, if that is your choice, it will require weight training at some point. Period.



bigmac said:


> I'm not disagreeing with the premise that to add strength and muscle mass you have to use heavy weights and low reps. However, you can do this without sacrificing good form and maximum range of motion. And by the way low reps means less than 10 -- not just one or two.



Strength and muscle mass gains are rarely mutually exclusive. You will gain some of either when working towards the other to be sure, but they are two entirely different protocols.

When training for strength, the main thing you are training is the central nervous system. That is far more important than the muscle itself. Don't get me wrong, muscularity is very important, but training the CNS to handle high weights is where your biggest strength gains will come from. That is done primarily by going as near your 1 rep max as possible for multiple sets of 1-3 reps with a lot of rest in between sets. You should never train to failure when training in this fashion. You should always leave just a little in the tank. Now that's not to say there aren't exceptions to the rule, and there are times you may to shake things up and conquer your bodies adaptation to a lift, but for the most part that is a fairly standard way of training for powerlifting.

I know I'm leaving a lot out, especially when it comes to assisting exercises and there are numerous training protocols one can follow and you do want to shake things up from time to time, but there is a huge difference in the training for general strength and well being and competitive powerlifting, and bodybuilding is a different animal altogether.

Also, in the strength world, low rep is widely considered below 5 reps. Anything above that is seen to be in the bodybuilding range, or to be used as an assisting exercise to help facilitate gains in the main lifts, i.e. deadlift, squat, and bench press.


----------



## bigmac

Almost forgot how committed to their particular type of workout regime people are. I've been weight training since the late 70s -- sometimes in a quite committed manner -- most times in just working around the rest of my life. As a child I was always the kid who was always picked last for teams. By the end of high school I managed to make the varsity basketball team. Until I finally settled down as to a job as an attorney I worked a series of physical jobs. I've managed to make it almost five decades in good health (good blood work and still almost as strong as I've even been). I believe weight training has been very beneficial.

Over the years I've seen many people actually ruin their health rather than improve it. One particularly huge guy at Gold's Gym in Edmonton died as the result of steroid abuse. Others destroyed their joints by using far too heavy weights. I've come to the conclusion that weight training is great so long as you don't get carried away with the amounts you lift or go down the steroid route.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Most of the form in that video is excellent. Brandon Lilly is one of only 19 men to ever total over 2200 raw, having 2204 which ties him for 16th all time (826.5 squat, 573 bench, 804.5 Deadlift). Mark Bell has a 2579 total (1025 squat, 832 bench, 722 Deadlift). You need a whole lot more to get there than ego. I get my information and inspiration from the best in the world. Not some personal trainer with a piece of paper that says he knows what he is talking about, yet can only squat like 300 pounds and has never trained anyone to do anything other than "Avoid injury". Not random people on the internet that don't know shit and can't do shit. Do the research, find out how the best train and the mentality of champions. 




bigmac said:


> This video "The Powerlifting Mentality" provides a dangerous example. The guys in this video are lifting massive weights with terrible form and often over only a limited range of motion.
> 
> I'm all for high intensity training -- however, IMHO what we're seeing on this video is not actually high intensity training. If the weight you're using precludes the performance of multiple reps with a full range of motion you're using too heavy a weight.
> 
> This video is about ego not training.


----------



## BigWheels

loopytheone said:


> I know you know what you are doing and stuff but make sure to warm up your muscles properly and take good care of yourselves and don't overwork yourselves!
> ^^



Wanna be my warmup partner? :wubu:


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Most of the form in that video is excellent. Brandon Lilly is one of only 19 men to ever total over 2200 raw, having 2204 which ties him for 16th all time (826.5 squat, 573 bench, 804.5 Deadlift). Mark Bell has a 2579 total (1025 squat, 832 bench, 722 Deadlift). You need a whole lot more to get there than ego. I get my information and inspiration from the best in the world. Not some personal trainer with a piece of paper that says he knows what he is talking about, yet can only squat like 300 pounds and has never trained anyone to do anything other than "Avoid injury". Not random people on the internet that don't know shit and can't do shit. Do the research, find out how the best train and the mentality of champions.



If you're a competitive powerlifter great -- otherwise the type of lifting you're advocating is likely to do more harm than good and is not the type of training that is conducive to lifelong fitness. 

I don't give a shit about the mentality of champions. I'm not a competitive lifter. I train not to win competitions but to facilitate living my life to the fullest and hopefully longest.

Also IMHO avoiding injuries is much more important that lifting a few extra pounds.


----------



## loopytheone

BigWheels said:


> Wanna be my warmup partner? :wubu:



Hahaha, only if you agree not to laugh at how rubbish I am at anything remotely exercise related! =p



bigmac said:


> If you're a competitive powerlifter great -- otherwise the type of lifting you're advocating is likely to do more harm than good and is not the type of training that is conducive to lifelong fitness.
> 
> I don't give a shit about the mentality of champions. I'm not a competitive lifter. I train not to win competitions but to facilitate living my life to the fullest and hopefully longest.
> 
> Also IMHO avoiding injuries is much more important that lifting a few extra pounds.



This is exactly my mentality as well. I don't claim to know anything about competitive weight lifting but it isn't something that most people are interested in training for. I do know that there are health benefits from doing weight lifting activities though and that you only need to do it moderately to get these benefits. There isn't any point of being excessive about it unless you want to compete in it. Most people want to stay fit, strong and injury free and moderation and caring for your body is a great way to achieve that.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

When you lose all your excuses, you will find all your results.


----------



## BigChaz

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Most of the form in that video is excellent. Brandon Lilly is one of only 19 men to ever total over 2200 raw, having 2204 which ties him for 16th all time (826.5 squat, 573 bench, 804.5 Deadlift). Mark Bell has a 2579 total (1025 squat, 832 bench, 722 Deadlift). You need a whole lot more to get there than ego. I get my information and inspiration from the best in the world. Not some personal trainer with a piece of paper that says he knows what he is talking about, yet can only squat like 300 pounds and has never trained anyone to do anything other than "Avoid injury". Not random people on the internet that don't know shit and can't do shit. Do the research, find out how the best train and the mentality of champions.



I finally figured out this thread. You are using this thread to pump yourself up and get excited about yourself, then you get a boner and masturbate.

That's my working theory, at least.

P.S. - The personal trainer with a piece of paper? His goal isn't to make the 20th world champion out of you. His is to make sure you dont blow out your asshole. 

P.P.S. - Your attitude towards people who dont want to be super lifters is hilariously pathetic


----------



## fritzi

You guys are aware of the fact that FFA's are bored to tears by endless discussions about power weight lifting?!


----------



## loopytheone

fritzi said:


> You guys are aware of the fact that FFA's are bored to tears by endless discussions about power weight lifting?!



Speak for yourself! Besides, I don't think everything they do on this forum is designed or the admiration of FFAs...


----------



## Sasquatch!

loopytheone said:


> Speak for yourself! Besides, I don't think everything they do on this forum is designed or the admiration of FFAs...



This is the toughest decision I have faced in my life.... favour Fritzi's boners, or Loopy's boners. OH LAWD WHY MUST I CHOOSE?!!?!??!


----------



## BigChaz

Sasquatch! said:


> This is the toughest decision I have faced in my life.... favour Fritzi's boners, or Loopy's boners. OH LAWD WHY MUST I CHOOSE?!!?!??!



You can never have too many boners in your life, Sassy.


----------



## Amaranthine

Sasquatch! said:


> This is the toughest decision I have faced in my life.... favour Fritzi's boners, or Loopy's boners. OH LAWD WHY MUST I CHOOSE?!!?!??!



Who says they're mutually exclusive! Just start a video series where you lift giant noms. And snack on them while you do. Discuss something totally irrelevant for the duration, to balance things out. 

You'll be competing internationally in no time - I believe there's even a couple books on the subject. 

Competing internationally in what, you ask? No idea.


----------



## loopytheone

Amaranthine said:


> Who says they're mutually exclusive! Just start a video series where you lift giant noms. And snack on them while you do. Discuss something totally irrelevant for the duration, to balance things out.
> 
> You'll be competing internationally in no time - I believe there's even a couple books on the subject.
> 
> Competing internationally in what, you ask? No idea.



Never mind him, *I* want to learn to compete in giant food lifting! That sounds like my ideal sport!!:eat2:


----------



## sophie lou

loopytheone said:


> Never mind him, *I* want to learn to compete in giant food lifting! That sounds like my ideal sport!!:eat2:



Giant food lifting would would be a great sport even more so if you get to eat what you can lift. 1 tray of hot dogs and 1 try of cream cakes for my first lift.

Now i am craving hot dog's i think i will have to stop for one on the way to work this afternoon. Ooh with onions and tomato sauce


----------



## loopytheone

sophie lou said:


> Giant food lifting would would be a great sport even more so if you get to eat what you can lift. 1 tray of hot dogs and 1 try of cream cakes for my first lift.
> 
> Now i am craving hot dog's i think i will have to stop for one on the way to work this afternoon. Ooh with onions and tomato sauce



I want to lift a giant chocolate cake and then rub my face in it.


----------



## Sasquatch!

loopytheone said:


> I want to lift a giant chocolate cake and then rub my face in it.



Yeah, eating things is so overrated.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Or, this thread specifically asks for feedback on diet and exercise, an area I have a great deal of knowledge and experience. If someone that doesn't know what they are talking about offers bad advice I am going to comment. 

Most personal trainers are garbage.

I am not training to be a powerlifter, however, if you want to increase your strength, it makes sense to look at the training of the strongest people on the planet. They clearly know how to gain strength. 

People make way too many bullshit excuses when it comes to diet and exercise. I don't accept them. The people I train will tell you I am an unbearable dick to train with, but, they would also tell you they would never train with anyone else because of the results. 





BigChaz said:


> I finally figured out this thread. You are using this thread to pump yourself up and get excited about yourself, then you get a boner and masturbate.
> 
> That's my working theory, at least.
> 
> P.S. - The personal trainer with a piece of paper? His goal isn't to make the 20th world champion out of you. His is to make sure you dont blow out your asshole.
> 
> P.P.S. - Your attitude towards people who dont want to be super lifters is hilariously pathetic


----------



## The Dark Lady

loopytheone said:


> I want to lift a giant chocolate cake and then rub my face in it.



Of all the things I've read on the internet this week, this has been the only sentence I've been able to relate to on a deep personal level.


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Or, this thread specifically asks for feedback on diet and exercise, an area I have a great deal of knowledge and experience. If someone that doesn't know what they are talking about offers bad advice I am going to comment.
> 
> Most personal trainers are garbage.
> 
> I am not training to be a powerlifter, however, if you want to increase your strength, it makes sense to look at the training of the strongest people on the planet. They clearly know how to gain strength.
> 
> People make way too many bullshit excuses when it comes to diet and exercise. I don't accept them. The people I train will tell you I am an unbearable dick to train with, but, they would also tell you they would never train with anyone else because of the results.



You need to recognize a few things:

1) Not everyone benefits from low rep super heavy training;

2) Maximizing strength is not everyone's primary goal (i.e. I'm more interested running a marathon someday soon than I am in adding 50 pounds to my bench press);

3) The training regimes of elite athletes are not good examples for ordinary people.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Everyone does benefit from heavy training, maximizing strength will benefit a marathon runner, training regimes of elite athletes are the best example. 




bigmac said:


> You need to recognize a few things:
> 
> 1) Not everyone benefits from low rep super heavy training;
> 
> 2) Maximizing strength is not everyone's primary goal (i.e. I'm more interested running a marathon someday soon than I am in adding 50 pounds to my bench press);
> 
> 3) The training regimes of elite athletes are not good examples for ordinary people.


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Everyone does benefit from heavy training, maximizing strength will benefit a marathon runner, training regimes of elite athletes are the best example.



Appropriate strength training can benefit pretty much any athlete. However a distance runner's strength program is not going to look anything like a powerlifter's program. The muscle physiology of an endurance athlete is very different from that of a power and/or speed athlete. An endurance athlete would not benefit from super heavy low rep training.

For elite athletes training is a full-time job with a very narrow specific goal. Ordinary people cannot devote themselves to such training and benefit from more diverse training. Also not everyone can tolerate super-intense training.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

That's just incorrect.



bigmac said:


> Appropriate strength training can benefit pretty much any athlete. However a distance runner's strength program is not going to look anything like a powerlifter's program. The muscle physiology of an endurance athlete is very different from that of a power and/or speed athlete. An endurance athlete would not benefit from super heavy low rep training.
> 
> For elite athletes training is a full-time job with a very narrow specific goal. Ordinary people cannot devote themselves to such training and benefit from more diverse training. Also not everyone can tolerate super-intense training.


----------



## loopytheone

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Or, this thread specifically asks for feedback on diet and exercise, an area I have a great deal of knowledge and experience. *If someone that doesn't know what they are talking about offers bad advice I am going to comment.*
> 
> Most personal trainers are garbage.
> 
> I am not training to be a powerlifter, however, if you want to increase your strength, it makes sense to look at the training of the strongest people on the planet. They clearly know how to gain strength.
> 
> People make way too many bullshit excuses when it comes to diet and exercise. I don't accept them. The people I train will tell you I am an unbearable dick to train with, but, they would also tell you they would never train with anyone else because of the results.



Hmm, I'm guessing this is directed at me? If so, come out and say so, don't just make passive aggressive comments and send me links to videos that refer to me (the viewer) as motherfucker repeatedly.


----------



## biglynch

I had thought about dropping a few pounds but if im honest the process just makes me miserable. Some ppl love the training. Its not for me.

Im off too the docs to get my yearly riot act reading.


----------



## loopytheone

biglynch said:


> I had thought about dropping a few pounds but if im honest the process just makes me miserable. Some ppl love the training. Its not for me.
> 
> Im off too the docs to get my yearly riot act reading.



If it makes you miserable then it isn't worth doing, in my opinion. I'm sure everybody would benefit from more exercise or eating better but it shouldn't be at the expense of your happiness. ^^ Good luck at the doctors!


----------



## Sasquatch!

The Dark Lady said:


> Of all the things I've read on the internet this week, this has been the only sentence I've been able to relate to on a deep personal level.



I thought you didn't like chocolate that much?


----------



## bigmac

biglynch said:


> I had thought about dropping a few pounds but if im honest the process just makes me miserable. Some ppl love the training. Its not for me.
> 
> Im off too the docs to get my yearly riot act reading.



That's the problem with a very rigid definition of "training". You don't need to go to a gym to exercise. The trick is to find things you enjoy doing because if you don't enjoy it you're not going to stick with it -- that's just human nature.

If lifting weights isn't your cup of tea maybe you like walking, or bicycle riding, or swimming, or aerobics, or kick boxing, or doing yoga, or whatever ...

If your goal is to feel a bet better and be a bit healthier there's no magic formula. We'd all be better off if we turned off whatever electronic device we're attached to at the moment and just go outside (Of course here I am tying this).


----------



## bigmac

loopytheone said:


> *If it makes you miserable then it isn't worth doing*, in my opinion. I'm sure everybody would benefit from more exercise or eating better but it shouldn't be at the expense of your happiness. ^^ Good luck at the doctors!



Yes, but there are so many ways to be more active I'm sure everyone can find something they like doing.


----------



## biglynch

bigmac said:


> That's the problem with a very rigid definition of "training". You don't need to go to a gym to exercise. The trick is to find things you enjoy doing because if you don't enjoy it you're not going to stick with it -- that's just human nature.
> 
> If lifting weights isn't your cup of tea maybe you like walking, or bicycle riding, or swimming, or aerobics, or kick boxing, or doing yoga, or whatever ...
> 
> If your goal is to feel a bet better and be a bit healthier there's no magic formula. We'd all be better off if we turned off whatever electronic device we're attached to at the moment and just go outside (Of course here I am tying this).


 
Well thanks for the obvious, but I think I will have a beer.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

It's not just directed at you. There is nothing passive or aggressive about it. 



loopytheone said:


> Hmm, I'm guessing this is directed at me? If so, come out and say so, don't just make passive aggressive comments and send me links to videos that refer to me (the viewer) as motherfucker repeatedly.



Once you break through the point of misery, amazing things begin to happen. You eventually become addicted. If someone doesn't care they obviously have no reason to do it. However, if they want results, they shouldn't let the temporary misery deter them.



loopytheone said:


> If it makes you miserable then it isn't worth doing, in my opinion. I'm sure everybody would benefit from more exercise or eating better but it shouldn't be at the expense of your happiness. ^^ Good luck at the doctors!


----------



## loopytheone

bigmac said:


> Yes, but there are so many ways to be more active I'm sure everyone can find something they like doing.



Yes, I know, I was referring to going to the gym/using weights specifically. ^^ I know for me the gym is nice and fun but if somebody told me I had to do running of any kind then frankly I'd rather die. I don't do running. It doesn't suit my body. I think there are things that everybody enjoys, it is just finding out what you think is fun. 



Geodetic_Effect said:


> It's not just directed at you. There is nothing passive or aggressive about it.
> 
> Once you break through the point of misery, amazing things begin to happen. You eventually become addicted. If someone doesn't care they obviously have no reason to do it. However, if they want results, they shouldn't let the temporary misery deter them.



My apologies if my last post came across as confrontational, I was having a bad day. 

And fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## HDANGEL15

*well I have done nothing but walk my dog...and have dropped 22# in the last 8 weeks......48 to go*


----------



## loopytheone

HDANGEL15 said:


> *well I have done nothing but walk my dog...and have dropped 22# in the last 8 weeks......48 to go*



Then I guess you lucky. That or you are carrying a lot more weight than is natural for your build. I do about 4 hours cardio and 2 hours weights and an hour zumba a week and it doesn't make me lose weight. As well as walking my dogs and such. Not that I'm complaining, I'm just naturally strong and heavy, but it is interesting that going from no exercise to all that exercise has had absolutely no effect on my weight in the month I've been doing it.


----------



## Tad

loopytheone said:


> Then I guess you lucky. That or you are carrying a lot more weight than is natural for your build. I do about 4 hours cardio and 2 hours weights and an hour zumba a week and it doesn't make me lose weight. As well as walking my dogs and such. Not that I'm complaining, I'm just naturally strong and heavy, but it is interesting that going from no exercise to all that exercise has had absolutely no effect on my weight in the month I've been doing it.



Loopy--ignoring the scales for a moment, take a good look in the mirror, in and out of clothes. Most likely you've turned some fat into muscle and toned/tightened existing muscles. 

On the other hand, genetics do make some people's bodies respond to exercise much more strongly than others (in ability to bulk up muscles, in change in cardio-vascular capacity, change in anaerobic capacity, etc....responding highly in one area doesn't mean that you respond highly in all of them). This is part of why people who say that one exercise program will work for everyone, with predictable results, are being rather blinkered.


----------



## loopytheone

Tad said:


> Loopy--ignoring the scales for a moment, take a good look in the mirror, in and out of clothes. Most likely you've turned some fat into muscle and toned/tightened existing muscles.
> 
> On the other hand, genetics do make some people's bodies respond to exercise much more strongly than others (in ability to bulk up muscles, in change in cardio-vascular capacity, change in anaerobic capacity, etc....responding highly in one area doesn't mean that you respond highly in all of them). This is part of why people who say that one exercise program will work for everyone, with predictable results, are being rather blinkered.



Well as somebody with a degree of body dysmorphia mirrors don't really work for me and I find that the changes in the way clothes fit varies more on whether they have just been washed or not rather than any changes in body size/shape... I've lost about 1/2 an inch from my waist in a month. That's all. I'm not complaining, I feel much better and that is the main thing!

And this is exactly what I mean. It seems very obvious to me that everybody is different in terms of body composition, metabolism and the way in which they respond to different types of foods and exercises. It is one of the things that makes us animals so interesting.


----------



## HDANGEL15

loopytheone said:


> Then I guess you lucky. That or you are carrying a lot more weight than is natural for your build. I do about 4 hours cardio and 2 hours weights and an hour zumba a week and it doesn't make me lose weight. As well as walking my dogs and such. Not that I'm complaining, I'm just naturally strong and heavy, but it is interesting that going from no exercise to all that exercise has had absolutely no effect on my weight in the month I've been doing it.



*YES i was carrying around 70# more then I should...i am not doing strenous exercise....but have changed my diet...radically. AND it agrees with me and is working and I FEEL AWESOME!!! *


----------



## cakeboy

My low rep heavy weight regimen is working wonders for me. I falcon-punched a rhino in the dick yesterday and he died. FUCK YOU RHINO.


----------



## loopytheone

HDANGEL15 said:


> *YES i was carrying around 70# more then I should...i am not doing strenous exercise....but have changed my diet...radically. AND it agrees with me and is working and I FEEL AWESOME!!! *



Well I'm about 50lbs overweight so I guess we around the same in size then. I'm really glad you are feeling good though, go you! *does the dance of joy*


----------



## bigmac

loopytheone said:


> Yes, I know, I was referring to going to the gym/using weights specifically. ^^ I know for me the gym is nice and fun but if somebody told me I had to do running of any kind then frankly I'd rather die. I don't do running. It doesn't suit my body. I think there are things that everybody enjoys, it is just finding out what you think is fun.



Yes, everyone is different. I actually kind of enjoy running. When I joined the Army back in the day I weighed 276 lbs on the first day of basic training but still finished in the top 50% on the two mile run portion of our first PT test. By the end of basic training I was running with the fast group despite still weighing about 255 lbs. It is indeed interesting to see how different people are -- which is why I always roll my eyes when someone tells me they have "the" ultimate workout plan -- it may be for them, but its pretty presumptuous to think it'll work for everyone.


----------



## GrowingBoy

Since a bunch of folks said they were going to do P90X (or had done it), I'm wondering if you have any tips. I got the package but haven't tried it yet. The "muscle confusion" and "sprint" concepts behind it seem *way* more effective than what I had been doing with my trainer with minimal results (similar workouts day after day), so it seems like a good time to rethink my routine.


----------



## likeitmatters

will cause your wallet to be thinner...it has been my experience that walking or running are the best exercise or buying some weights are the best. or even renting some videos that are years old about fitness are still the best value. This market you are talking about is about making money and nothing else. The world needs to realize this...they dont about you and they want your money plain and simple. 

p.s. and keeping a smile on your face and a bright outlook on your life is free free and avoiding temptation when it comes to food.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Anyone whose goal is fat loss should focus on food. When it comes to fat loss, it is by far, the more important component.


----------



## HDANGEL15

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Anyone whose goal is fat loss should focus on food. When it comes to fat loss, it is by far, the more important component.



*for once I acutally 100% agree....that is all I have done...and it is massive change ....FAST...right now I am only walking, cause I have a dog..and enjoy exploring my new 'hood...but eventually I will have to step up my game to tone/shape my body.....no doubt...kettle bell which I bought a year ago or more from your advice will do the job....and KILL ME*


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Anyone whose goal is fat loss should focus on food. When it comes to fat loss, it is by far, the more important component.



I don't disagree with this statement as a general proposition. However, earlier in this thread you recommended eating 6,000 to 10,000 calories a day. This recommendation is, with all due respect, freakin insane!


----------



## biglynch

bigmac said:


> I don't disagree with this statement as a general proposition. However, earlier in this thread you recommended eating 6,000 to 10,000 calories a day. This recommendation is, with all due respect, freakin insane!



No he did not recommend a thing. He said *he* eats between 6000-10000.

Lets try the question again, and lay off the free advice and the page of madness.

Q:Any Other BHM's trying to lose weight? 

A: No *I'm* not.


----------



## djudex

I am for health reasons


----------



## Wanderer

And I'm not because I don't want to.


----------



## Sasquatch!

Wanderer said:


> And I'm not because I don't want to.



This goes against everything I have ever read you post.


----------



## Saoirse

I wonder how this thread would've gone if the question was about the women here losing weight. Oh I know, tons of shaming.

I have no issues with this. It's just a wondering...


----------



## loopytheone

Saoirse said:


> I wonder how this thread would've gone if the question was about the women here losing weight. Oh I know, tons of shaming.
> 
> I have no issues with this. It's just a wondering...



I take it you mean the BBW amongst us? This is the FFA board after all and not all of us are big! I don't think it would be an issue at all. If you are really so curious I can go and make a thread about it over in the BBW forum. I know plenty of ladies on here who are losing weight at the moment.


----------



## djudex

Saoirse said:


> I wonder how this thread would've gone if the question was about the women here losing weight. Oh I know, tons of shaming.
> 
> I have no issues with this. It's just a wondering...



Why would we care (negatively) if here women were trying to lose weight? That's makes crazy sense.


----------



## Saoirse

I meant in this whole board in general. If the bbws started a thread talking about weightloss, there would be a disappeoving uproar from the fas. I just find it fascinating that there's been very little said from ffas, regarding fat dudes losing weight, in this particular thread. 

AGAIN, Im just wondering.


----------



## loopytheone

Saoirse said:


> I meant in this whole board in general. If the bbws started a thread talking about weightloss, there would be a disappeoving uproar from the fas. I just find it fascinating that there's been very little said from ffas, regarding fat dudes losing weight, in this particular thread.
> 
> AGAIN, Im just wondering.



Well I can't talk for everybody here but I'm a FFA and as far as I am concerned a person's body is their own to control and care for how they see fit and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise or tell them that they are doing it wrong. So if a person wants to gain weight, lose weight, stay the same weight etc etc then that is up to them and they shouldn't get any criticism for that.


----------



## fritzi

djudex said:


> Why would we care (negatively) if here women were trying to lose weight? That's makes crazy sense.



That's the right attitude - and the way it should be. Shows you're a good guy. 



loopytheone said:


> Well I can't talk for everybody here but I'm a FFA and as far as I am concerned a person's body is their own to control and care for how they see fit and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise or tell them that they are doing it wrong. So if a person wants to gain weight, lose weight, stay the same weight etc etc then that is up to them and they shouldn't get any criticism for that.



Exactly - you as an FFA see a person in a BHM, not an object - that's the difference.

I can understand where Saoirse is coming from - there is a reason why many SS/BBW are uncomfortable with FAs. Despite claiming the contrary, many (not all!) FAs see fat women mainly as objects - and this translates into denying them a free will and opinion of their own. Fat pressure is as bad as diet pressure.

FFAs, whether fat or thin themselves, for a host of very different reasons, not matter how much they sometimes like to objectify their BHM mainly still see him as a person, are more tolerant and accepting of his autonomous decisions.

That's also what makes this BHM/FFA board here such a good place on Dims - no matter how much bitching goes on, the basic principle 'live and let live' is applied more generously than on some of the other boards!

So hooray for BHM & FFA tolerance!


----------



## BigBluesMo

Anyone here have any info Pro/Con on using Sensa for Men? Need to get the last tough 60 off so the Doc will replace the ol' hip so I can get back to a normal life. All the research I've done sounds good in the sense of not a "fad" short term fix but something to help in the long run. Thanks in advance for any info.


*"Some folk built like this, some folk built like that
But the way I'm built, you shouldn't call me fat
Because I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed" - Howling Wolf & Willie Dixon*


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

It's bullshit




BigBluesMo said:


> Anyone here have any info Pro/Con on using Sensa for Men? Need to get the last tough 60 off so the Doc will replace the ol' hip so I can get back to a normal life. All the research I've done sounds good in the sense of not a "fad" short term fix but something to help in the long run. Thanks in advance for any info.
> 
> 
> *"Some folk built like this, some folk built like that
> But the way I'm built, you shouldn't call me fat
> Because I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed" - Howling Wolf & Willie Dixon*


----------



## HDANGEL15

BigBluesMo said:


> Anyone here have any info Pro/Con on using Sensa for Men? Need to get the last tough 60 off so the Doc will replace the ol' hip so I can get back to a normal life. All the research I've done sounds good in the sense of not a "fad" short term fix but something to help in the long run. Thanks in advance for any info.



*I have a friend who has stuck with it for a long time and taken off 75#s he looks amazing!!! I could probably put you in touch with him...my boss uses it as well...and has taken off about 15#s but she has not stuck with it, like my other friend who was determined to get back to his boyish figure and totally succeeded!![

on a side note I have been taking Garcinia Cambogia and it has helped ALOT!! It has not made me feel speedy at all, but it has stifled my appetite IMMENSELY....just my 2 cents*


----------



## Wanderer

Sasquatch! said:


> This goes against everything I have ever read you post.



Odd, I posted earlier in this thread about wanting to gain... are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else?


----------



## fatnhappymax

I've been struggling with this a lot recently. I've always loved being a large man, and plan to stay that way, but within healthy moderation and I wanted to get things back under control. Last September I got on the scale and tipped it at 338. This was the biggest I had ever been and saw 350 fast approaching and did not want to reach that milestone. So I started walking a lot and cut out a lot of foods and dropped all the way down to 298 by January. I was so proud of myself and felt great.

Meanwhile, cut to May and I have unfortunately let things go again. There have been a lot of stresses recently and I've been going through some malaise and I have gained back up to 325. It's not as big as I was, but I am starting to feel unhealthy again. Even at an even 300 I felt like I could manage my life well, but at this weight I just feel too big for me. I need to get it back under control.

Argh.


----------



## biglynch

fatnhappymax said:


> I've been struggling with this a lot recently. I've always loved being a large man, and plan to stay that way, but within healthy moderation and I wanted to get things back under control. Last September I got on the scale and tipped it at 338. This was the biggest I had ever been and saw 350 fast approaching and did not want to reach that milestone. So I started walking a lot and cut out a lot of foods and dropped all the way down to 298 by January. I was so proud of myself and felt great.
> 
> Meanwhile, cut to May and I have unfortunately let things go again. There have been a lot of stresses recently and I've been going through some *malaise* and I have gained back up to 325. It's not as big as I was, but I am starting to feel unhealthy again. Even at an even 300 I felt like I could manage my life well, but at this weight I just feel too big for me. I need to get it back under control.
> 
> Argh.



I saw that as mayonaise and thought well thats yo problem. MY BAD


----------



## BigBluesMo

HDANGEL15 said:


> *I have a friend who has stuck with it for a long time and taken off 75#s he looks amazing!!! I could probably put you in touch with him...my boss uses it as well...and has taken off about 15#s but she has not stuck with it, like my other friend who was determined to get back to his boyish figure and totally succeeded!![
> 
> on a side note I have been taking Garcinia Cambogia and it has helped ALOT!! It has not made me feel speedy at all, but it has stifled my appetite IMMENSELY....just my 2 cents*


Thanks Angel for the info I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

*"Some folk built like this, some folk built like that
But the way I'm built, you shouldn't call me fat
Because I'm built for comfort, I ain't built for speed" - Howling Wolf & Wilie Dixon*


----------



## extra_fat_guy

It is time for me to do something about my weight.


----------



## LeoGibson

BigBluesMo said:


> Anyone here have any info Pro/Con on using Sensa for Men? Need to get the last tough 60 off so the Doc will replace the ol' hip so I can get back to a normal life. All the research I've done sounds good in the sense of not a "fad" short term fix but something to help in the long run. Thanks in advance for any info.



It works as part of a program of diet and exercise. Anything you see advertised in magazines works great. As long as it is part of a program of proper diet and exercise. Or you can save your money and skip everything except for the part about proper diet and exercise. You can even leave exercise out, although it is beneficial, as truthfully diet is 95% of *ANY* weight loss equation.

The only pill you can take that will do what you want without any effort put out by yourself would be something like Dexadrine or any other old-school amphetamine. Then you'll naturally eat less and have your heart rate elevated, and sleep less, and sweat more, and you get the drift. Not exactly safe or sane. There are also some others that have been used in bodybuilding circles, but I'll not even mention them as they can be really freakin' dangerous.

In short, everything works and nothing works. It's all about the diet and exercise part in the small print. The only real thing your going to be lighter in is your wallet if you don't add in the diet and exercise part.

I know someone will say, yeah but my so and so who did this and that took whatever and changed nothing else and it worked. The placebo effect does work well with some people and some people make slight alterations without realizing it as just by seeking the "miracle" pill puts them in a more mindful mindset of what they are eating.


----------



## bigmac

LeoGibson said:


> It works as part of a program of diet and exercise. Anything you see advertised in magazines works great. As long as it is part of a program of proper diet and exercise. Or you can save your money and skip everything except for the part about proper diet and exercise. You can even leave exercise out, although it is beneficial,* as truthfully diet is 95% of ANY weight loss equation.*
> 
> The only pill you can take that will do what you want without any effort put out by yourself would be something like Dexadrine or any other old-school amphetamine. Then you'll naturally eat less and have your heart rate elevated, and sleep less, and sweat more, and you get the drift. Not exactly safe or sane. There are also some others that have been used in bodybuilding circles, but I'll not even mention them as they can be really freakin' dangerous.
> 
> In short, everything works and nothing works. It's all about the diet and exercise part in the small print. The only real thing your going to be lighter in is your wallet if you don't add in the diet and exercise part.
> 
> I know someone will say, yeah but my so and so who did this and that took whatever and changed nothing else and it worked. The placebo effect does work well with some people and some people make slight alterations without realizing it as just by seeking the "miracle" pill puts them in a more mindful mindset of what they are eating.



I agree with most of what you say. However, I do need to take exception with your assertion that diet is 95% of any weight loss equation (but equation is the right way to look at this). To most people diet means cutting calories and this has been proven to be almost useless way of obtaining long-term weight loss.

The laws of thermodynamics being what they are its inescapable that to loss weight you need to expend more energy than you consume. However, calorie restricting diets don't actually work because they start a negative cycle. Cutting calories leads to decreases in you metabolism -- continued weight loss then requires more calorie cutting -- which in turn further reduces metabolism ... .

Far better to start positive cycle. Increased activity increases you metabolism which allows you to consume more calories without gaining weight which further increases you metabolism which provides more energy for further increases in activity ... .


----------



## LeoGibson

bigmac said:


> I agree with most of what you say. However, I do need to take exception with your assertion that diet is 95% of any weight loss equation (but equation is the right way to look at this). To most people diet means cutting calories and this has been proven to be almost useless way of obtaining long-term weight loss.
> 
> The laws of thermodynamics being what they are its inescapable that to loss weight you need to expend more energy than you consume. However, calorie restricting diets don't actually work because they start a negative cycle. Cutting calories leads to decreases in you metabolism -- continued weight loss then requires more calorie cutting -- which in turn further reduces metabolism ... .
> 
> Far better to start positive cycle. Increased activity increases you metabolism which allows you to consume more calories without gaining weight which further increases you metabolism which provides more energy for further increases in activity ... .




True. I agree, let me clarify what I meant when I used the term diet, I meant it in the context of diet meaning proper nutrition or clean eating if you will, not as in a "diet" where you go to more extreme calorie deprivation.


----------



## Rathkhan

I am actively working to lose weight for health and "I want to be able to do shit" reasons. So far I'm down 110 lbs in the last 6 months. I did it by changing how I eat mostly, though I am more active now; it's a direct result of losing the weight and feeling better. I still have a long ways to go, but I am almost half way to my goal weight of 220.


----------



## loopytheone

Rathkhan said:


> I am actively working to lose weight for health and "I want to be able to do shit" reasons. So far I'm down 110 lbs in the last 6 months. I did it by changing how I eat mostly, though I am more active now; it's a direct result of losing the weight and feeling better. I still have a long ways to go, but I am almost half way to my goal weight of 220.



I'm glad everything is going so well for you and that you are feeling better, that is wonderful news! Just remember to look after your body and get lots of water and nutrients when you are losing weight... though I'm sure you already know this, being the weight loss champ you are, eh? :happy:


----------



## Rathkhan

loopytheone said:


> I'm glad everything is going so well for you and that you are feeling better, that is wonderful news! Just remember to look after your body and get lots of water and nutrients when you are losing weight... though I'm sure you already know this, being the weight loss champ you are, eh? :happy:



Haha, thank you!  I am trying to do as much as I can to take care of myself!


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

The thermodynamics argument is very common but it is incorrect. 



bigmac said:


> I agree with most of what you say. However, I do need to take exception with your assertion that diet is 95% of any weight loss equation (but equation is the right way to look at this). To most people diet means cutting calories and this has been proven to be almost useless way of obtaining long-term weight loss.
> 
> The laws of thermodynamics being what they are its inescapable that to loss weight you need to expend more energy than you consume.


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> The thermodynamics argument is very common but it is incorrect.




Really? Please explain.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Just because a a substance contains a certain amount of energy does not mean it is utilized. Those measurements are based on isolating a fuel, putting it in a closed system, burning it, and measuring the heat energy given off. Look at an internal combustion engine for example. This engine uses the explosive force of igniting gasoline to drive pistons. Most of the energy available in the gasoline is never used to move the engine, it is given off as heat. 

The human body is an open system with many variables. The amount of energy that is stored in a particular chemical plays no role in whether or not your body stores fat. This is controlled by hormones. Hormones that can be manipulated via diet without having to worry about total caloric intake vs. caloric expenditure(which are really just inaccurate estimates). 

You yourself mention the fact that restricting calories too much is ineffectual. This is because of the hormonal state it puts your body in. Your body goes into all out fat storage mode. Your body will also destroy muscle to conserve energy and after the initial fat loss, most of the additional weight loss will be muscle, not fat.

This type of weight loss also just empties fat cells of stored fat and does not destroy the fat cells themselves. Empty fat cells send out hormonal signals begging to be filled with fat. So when the calorie restriction ceases, the person blows back up. They actually end up in a worse state due to the muscle loss that doesn't bounce back. 

Understanding the biochemistry involved is why I am able to eat 6,000-10,000 calories/day while simultaneously losing fat and gaining muscle. I put myself in a hormonal state that makes it impossible to store fat. It actually eliminates fat and destroys the fat cells themselves. No rebounds except for a small amount of water weight. (There is some anecdotal evidence that your body will actually revert the fat cells to stem cells to be utilized elsewhere. With the right training possibly become muscle cells)

Now, most people will not be able to eat that much while in this state. You don't get as hungry. I just have really intense training to support. I get hungrier than someone that doesn't train and I force myself to eat beyond that anyway. 

It's actually pretty simple, but it is NOT easy. At least you never go hungry though.



bigmac said:


> Really? Please explain.


----------



## LeoGibson

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Just because a a substance contains a certain amount of energy does not mean it is utilized. Those measurements are based on isolating a fuel, putting it in a closed system, burning it, and measuring the heat energy given off. Look at an internal combustion engine for example. This engine uses the explosive force of igniting gasoline to drive pistons. Most of the energy available in the gasoline is never used to move the engine, it is given off as heat.
> 
> The human body is an open system with many variables. The amount of energy that is stored in a particular chemical plays no role in whether or not your body stores fat. This is controlled by hormones. Hormones that can be manipulated via diet without having to worry about total caloric intake vs. caloric expenditure(which are really just inaccurate estimates).
> 
> You yourself mention the fact that restricting calories too much is ineffectual. This is because of the hormonal state it puts your body in. Your body goes into all out fat storage mode. Your body will also destroy muscle to conserve energy and after the initial fat loss, most of the additional weight loss will be muscle, not fat.
> 
> This type of weight loss also just empties fat cells of stored fat and does not destroy the fat cells themselves. Empty fat cells send out hormonal signals begging to be filled with fat. So when the calorie restriction ceases, the person blows back up. They actually end up in a worse state due to the muscle loss that doesn't bounce back.
> 
> Understanding the biochemistry involved is why I am able to eat 6,000-10,000 calories/day while simultaneously losing fat and gaining muscle. I put myself in a hormonal state that makes it impossible to store fat. It actually eliminates fat and destroys the fat cells themselves. No rebounds except for a small amount of water weight. (There is some anecdotal evidence that your body will actually revert the fat cells to stem cells to be utilized elsewhere. With the right training possibly become muscle cells)
> 
> Now, most people will not be able to eat that much while in this state. You don't get as hungry. I just have really intense training to support. I get hungrier than someone that doesn't train and I force myself to eat beyond that anyway.
> 
> It's actually pretty simple, but it is NOT easy. At least you never go hungry though.



What kind of protocol are you following? It sounds interesting and I'd like to read more about it. I know that for myself, it probably would not be beneficial as we have different goals for training at this time, but it does sound like something worth researching.

FWIW, I'm following a mix of Paleo/Warrior diet. I respond fairly well to this way of eating although I know the prolonged fast then feast would be pretty hard to get enough nutrients and calories in to support traditional powerlifting style training. But for where I am now and working more towards cutting belly fat and regaining more joint mobility and overall flexibility and stamina it is working well. So far I alternate between the kettlebell and a 50 lb. heavy bag. but I'm considering picking up Convict Conditioning and adding some of that in for working on joint and tendon strength. Two things that have been bothering me for the last few years.


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Just because a a substance contains a certain amount of energy does not mean it is utilized. Those measurements are based on isolating a fuel, putting it in a closed system, burning it, and measuring the heat energy given off. Look at an internal combustion engine for example. This engine uses the explosive force of igniting gasoline to drive pistons. Most of the energy available in the gasoline is never used to move the engine, it is given off as heat.
> 
> The human body is an open system with many variables. The amount of energy that is stored in a particular chemical plays no role in whether or not your body stores fat. This is controlled by hormones. Hormones that can be manipulated via diet without having to worry about total caloric intake vs. caloric expenditure(which are really just inaccurate estimates).
> 
> You yourself mention the fact that restricting calories too much is ineffectual. This is because of the hormonal state it puts your body in. Your body goes into all out fat storage mode. Your body will also destroy muscle to conserve energy and after the initial fat loss, most of the additional weight loss will be muscle, not fat.
> 
> This type of weight loss also just empties fat cells of stored fat and does not destroy the fat cells themselves. Empty fat cells send out hormonal signals begging to be filled with fat. So when the calorie restriction ceases, the person blows back up. They actually end up in a worse state due to the muscle loss that doesn't bounce back.
> 
> Understanding the biochemistry involved is why I am able to eat 6,000-10,000 calories/day while simultaneously losing fat and gaining muscle. I put myself in a hormonal state that makes it impossible to store fat. It actually eliminates fat and destroys the fat cells themselves. No rebounds except for a small amount of water weight. (There is some anecdotal evidence that your body will actually revert the fat cells to stem cells to be utilized elsewhere. With the right training possibly become muscle cells)
> 
> Now, most people will not be able to eat that much while in this state. You don't get as hungry. I just have really intense training to support. I get hungrier than someone that doesn't train and I force myself to eat beyond that anyway.
> 
> It's actually pretty simple, but it is NOT easy. At least you never go hungry though.



I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call shenanigans. Yes, hormones do effect fat storage, fat utilization, and muscle development. Intense exercise does indeed effect your hormonal systems. However, it appears you're taking a little knowledge and making wild extrapolations.

I took several upper division physiology courses and I am unaware of any research that would support your assertion than hormonal changes brought about by intense exercise destroys fat cells. Your claim that fat cells can be converted to stem cells seems totally improbable.


----------



## loopytheone

bigmac said:


> I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call shenanigans. Yes, hormones do effect fat storage, fat utilization, and muscle development. Intense exercise does indeed effect your hormonal systems. However, it appears you're taking a little knowledge and making wild extrapolations.
> 
> I took several upper division physiology courses and I am unaware of any research that would support your assertion than hormonal changes brought about by intense exercise destroys fat cells. Your claim that fat cells can be converted to stem cells seems totally improbable.



I have to say that as a zoologist I've never heard of it being possible to destroy fat cells that way and I'm positive that they can't turn into stem cells especially in situ. I do think that the metabolism itself is capable of functioning in numerous different ways though in response to innate and external stimuli and that encouraging a change in metabolism can certainly alter the way fat is stored/used and muscle is built/destroyed. For one I don't agree with the whole thermodynamics law argument at all, mainly because calories in food and those 'expended' are completely inaccurate unless you actually are a real life furnace and like to combust your food instead of eating it! The balance of types of activity and types of food eaten and innate factors effecting energy utilization and storage are the most important factors, much more so than calories. That is why your body responds differently if you eat 2,000 calories of junk food a day compared to 2,000 calories of 'proper' food. 

Also, I am hugely aware that you didn't state otherwise to most of these things, I just started talking and science poured out. :doh: Sorry about that! I think I need to go and read a few articles and get all the science out of my brain for a while!


----------



## bigmac

Rathkhan said:


> I am actively working to lose weight for health and *"I want to be able to do shit" reasons.* So far I'm down 110 lbs in the last 6 months. I did it by changing how I eat mostly, though I am more active now; it's a direct result of losing the weight and feeling better. I still have a long ways to go, but I am almost half way to my goal weight of 220.



The _I want to be able to do shit_ reason resonates with me. I used to play basketball at the local gym. However, I'm not going to participate unless I can participate well (don't want to embarrass myself).


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Apparently they didn't teach you to read. I never asserted that intense exercise leads to destroying fat cells. From the beginning I have stated that it is all about diet, because it is. Fat loss is all in how you eat. I said there is anecdotal evidence of fat cells beng turned into stem cells, again do to diet. Do you not understand what anecdotal evidence is?



bigmac said:


> I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call shenanigans. Yes, hormones do effect fat storage, fat utilization, and muscle development. Intense exercise does indeed effect your hormonal systems. However, it appears you're taking a little knowledge and making wild extrapolations.
> 
> I took several upper division physiology courses and I am unaware of any research that would support your assertion than hormonal changes brought about by intense exercise destroys fat cells. Your claim that fat cells can be converted to stem cells seems totally improbable.


----------



## Saoirse

There's no fucking need to be nasty. Smarten the fuck up.


----------



## loopytheone

Saoirse said:


> There's no fucking need to be nasty. Smarten the fuck up.



This. Exactly.


----------



## cakeboy

Crush your fat cells. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of the trans fats.


----------



## BigChaz

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Do you not understand what anecdotal evidence is?



That is precisely why its proper to be highly critical. I don't think you know what anecdotal evidence is, to be quite honest.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

It won't let me rep that. Hilarious.



cakeboy said:


> Crush your fat cells. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of the trans fats.


----------



## vect0rman

I am trying to lose again. I yoyo up and down but no where near my highest peak (315lb). With my Height, that's a pretty hefty size. my current weight is 275lbs. I was 240 about a year ago, and long story short. got a Girl friend, we'd eat out alot, and do stuff so i stopped eating as healthy and going to the gym. anyways, single now and planning on getting back on it.

What I did. well. I put two goals for myself. 
1. not to spend so much money. I made a budget for my food intake.
this really helps on what you get and how much you eat out. (do you really need those krispy kreme's?)

2. eat more natural foods, low in sugars, and low in carbs. 

3. get a meal schedule. earlier = bigger meal so i can burn it off while being active. and have 4-5 small=medium meals a day instead of 2-3 BIG MEALS.

4.Work out, become active, set your self a goal in that category. "this week Ill walk a mile in XX time" start off small and transition in to different levels. 

5. Trial and error. what works out for you may not work for others and vise versa. 

6. Be realistic about your goals, you can't undo years worth of life style in a few weeks. 

I applied that to my life, made a change. I worked out religiously after work in the night. for 2-3 hours, Drank a lot of water. Ate well in the morning. took pictures of myself. ate healthier and selected healthy alternatives even for cravings. picked up physical hobbies. and made mini goals for myself. goals that were attainable in a few months. "I lost 10, my next 3 months i want to lose 15lbs"- that was my first goal.

I want to get down to 200-220 see how I feel, and look. my BMI is like 160-170? but yeah... lol... way too thin for me or my structure.


----------



## escapist

Just feels like its time for me to report in. I guess its been over a month and I've had some serious drops in weight and crazy realizations. I finally sprang for a 550 lb rated scale because I knew the one I was getting numbers off of wasn't 100% reliable. Turns out I was well over 500 lbs when I thought I was like 490ish because even after loosing 20+ lbs I was only 490. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal and it didn't really take away from what I had done or accomplished but in my head...well it just sucked having to say some of those same numbers again. When you say goodbye to a weight range you don't ever really want to see it come back unless its from pure muscle.

Anyways, the low carb thing is just ROCKING for me! I decided to just stay pretty much on induction because I found out I really liked it. I was at 490 lbs on Saturday and woke up today just 5 days later 8 lbs lighter. I thought I would have gone up cause I totally pigged out at a buffet in Vegas yesterday. I stayed on plan eating mostly broccoli, pork, and mushrooms but man I had a HUGE plate, and some fried chicken (non-breaded) and clams. I actually lost 2 lbs which totally blew me away.

Oh, and for Geo, the body weight thing is rockin. Up to 100 Squats now. By the time I get down to 400 lbs I'll be easily doing 200 squats  I went camping again this last weekend and OMG did it make life so much easier than just a month ago when I hurt my back!


----------



## bigmac

I can buy jeans at Target again.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

All you need to know is in this 5 minute video. 

http://youtu.be/lozkwiyVefw


----------



## likeitmatters

is not good for ones heart and either stay where you or risk the chances down the road of heart damage.

and prepare to get a new set of friends who will love you at your thinner side of life.

there was a study years ago I do believe before any of you were born about some people are predestine to be large and I never followed up on that thought pattern till now.

anyone care to chime on this?


----------



## BigWheels

I have said this before, and I hope this time I'm for real...

I'm going to try to shed the UNHEALTHY weight for medical reasons. 

I think what really hit me was James Gandolfini dying from a heart attack a few days ago. 51 years old. I'll be 42 this year. And with my dietary habits, 51 sounds even like a long shot. My my Mom & her parents had heart issues, all died early 50's.

I realize I may be on borrowed time now. I want to be there for my kids (they don't live with me). 

I think my biggest fear is dying alone & no one knowing for several days (or longer). And as it is, I'm almost 100% homebound. It hurts to sit, stand, walk, lay down, etc...

Stick a fork in me, I think I'm done.


----------



## loopytheone

BigWheels said:


> I have said this before, and I hope this time I'm for real...
> 
> I'm going to try to shed the UNHEALTHY weight for medical reasons.
> 
> I think what really hit me was James Gandolfini dying from a heart attack a few days ago. 51 years old. I'll be 42 this year. And with my dietary habits, 51 sounds even like a long shot. My my Mom & her parents had heart issues, all died early 50's.
> 
> I realize I may be on borrowed time now. I want to be there for my kids (they don't live with me).
> 
> I think my biggest fear is dying alone & no one knowing for several days (or longer). And as it is, I'm almost 100% homebound. It hurts to sit, stand, walk, lay down, etc...
> 
> Stick a fork in me, I think I'm done.



You CAN do it. I know you can. I am lucky to be one of those obnoxiously healthy people but I have friends who are younger than me that struggle so much with their health and it really is painful to watch. But things can get better. 

Do you have people come to your house to visit you often? I can understand why that would scare you. *hugs*


----------



## BigWheels

loopytheone said:


> You CAN do it. I know you can. I am lucky to be one of those obnoxiously healthy people but I have friends who are younger than me that struggle so much with their health and it really is painful to watch. But things can get better.
> 
> Do you have people come to your house to visit you often? I can understand why that would scare you. *hugs*



Nobody comes by (except the maintenance guy monthly to see if I need anything fixed.) so it grows (more & more fear) each day. 

And yeah, I've tried reaching out to people I know, tried, well, several things... and sadly, I've run into weightism (is that even the word I'm trying to find?), repeatedly. And you get kicked enough times, you tend to be gun shy.


----------



## loopytheone

BigWheels said:


> Nobody comes by (except the maintenance guy monthly to see if I need anything fixed.) so it grows (more & more fear) each day.
> 
> And yeah, I've tried reaching out to people I know, tried, well, several things... and sadly, I've run into weightism (is that even the word I'm trying to find?), repeatedly. And you get kicked enough times, you tend to be gun shy.



Hmm... I'm afraid I can't offer much advice because I really don't know how things work over the ocean. I know that over here you can get support and have people come over to see you every day especially if you are so anxious about that. 

I believe sizeism is the word! And yeah, I can understand that. I have social anxiety myself so I don't have a lot of friends and if it wasn't for the fact that I live with my family here I would likely not see anybody aside from once or twice a month myself. I know that isn't much help to you but I can empathise at the very least. I just wish I could be more useful for you. =/


----------



## HDANGEL15

BigWheels said:


> I have said this before, and I hope this time I'm for real...
> 
> I'm going to try to shed the UNHEALTHY weight for medical reasons.
> 
> I think what really hit me was James Gandolfini dying from a heart attack a few days ago. 51 years old. I'll be 42 this year. And with my dietary habits, 51 sounds even like a long shot. My my Mom & her parents had heart issues, all died early 50's.
> 
> I realize I may be on borrowed time now. I want to be there for my kids (they don't live with me).
> 
> I think my biggest fear is dying alone & no one knowing for several days (or longer). And as it is, I'm almost 100% homebound. It hurts to sit, stand, walk, lay down, etc...
> 
> Stick a fork in me, I think I'm done.



instead of *trying* why don't you *MAKE A DECISON* to do this one minute/hour/day at a time.....*I know you can do it *if you realize it is life or death....FOR YOUR KIDS!!!!


----------



## bigmac

BigWheels said:


> I have said this before, and I hope this time I'm for real...
> 
> I'm going to try to shed the UNHEALTHY weight for medical reasons.
> 
> ...
> 
> * I'm almost 100% homebound. It hurts to sit, stand, walk, lay down, etc...*
> 
> Stick a fork in me, I think I'm done.




While I'm of the opinion that WLS is over rated and over performed it can be appropriate in some circumstances. You might want to look into this option.

A newer procedure, the sleeve gastrectomy (AKA gastric sleeve), has results similar to that of gastric bypass but with fewer complications. A member of my family had a sleeve gastrectomy last fall and has lost 150lbs. The operation cannot be reversed so the decision to do it is not one to be taken lightly. However, sometimes extreme situations call for extreme measures.


----------



## hbighappy

bigmac said:


> While I'm of the opinion that WLS is over rated and over performed it can be appropriate in some circumstances. You might want to look into this option.
> 
> A newer procedure, the sleeve gastrectomy (AKA gastric sleeve), has results similar to that of gastric bypass but with fewer complications. A member of my family had a sleeve gastrectomy last fall and has lost 150lbs. The operation cannot be reversed so the decision to do it is not one to be taken lightly. However, sometimes extreme situations call for extreme measures.





Im planing on doing this need lose like 60 lbs still b4 i can do it already lost 40+
these last 60 lbs harder doing atkins diet plan hit gym when my daughter starts her preschool next month


----------



## blackcaesarbhm

My cousin recently lost fifty pounds by taking up MMA training and walking..


----------



## HDANGEL15

blackcaesarbhm said:


> My cousin recently lost fifty pounds by taking up MMA training and walking..



*I hear fantastic things about MMA training.....*


----------



## Jah

I think it's best to do a lot of research before choosing a weightloss method. Most weightloss programs etc are effective, it just finding which one works best for you. Going to a weightloss forum can help with support but most of the people at them think fat is ugly. I've found weight watchers is what works best for me. I like the flexibility in that I can eat what I want, it's easier to count points than calories and I can do it from home which helps because I shy when meeting new people.


----------



## LeoGibson

150 snatches over 5 sets of ladders followed by 255 swings in 10 timed minutes.

Yep, I think I'm ready to go up to the 24kg bell!


----------



## Saoirse

That's a lot of snatch


----------



## Vanilla Gorilla

Saoirse said:


> That's a lot of snatch


----------



## LeoGibson

Saoirse said:


> That's a lot of snatch



Hey, you know how it is when you love something. You just can't get enough!

P.S. I did that in under 30 minutes time too. To paraphrase my man Muddy Waters, "ain't that a man."


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

For sure, good work. 



LeoGibson said:


> 150 snatches over 5 sets of ladders followed by 255 swings in 10 timed minutes.
> 
> Yep, I think I'm ready to go up to the 24kg bell!


----------



## LeoGibson

I'm happy for the great workouts I have gotten in this week. I was able to pull 275 for 5 reps and it felt light enough that I think I could easily have gotten 5 at over 300 and I did do 300 for 5 on squats, it was fairly easy, but not quite as easy as it should have been, I got a slight hitch in the hips coming out of the bottom to address.*Only 100 more lbs. on the deadlift and 200 on the squats to get back to where I was 10 years ago when I last lifted.*


----------



## escapist

Well I'm not so much trying to loose weight anymore. I kind of hit the wall at 464 lbs. So I decided to change it up and switch to an Body-Opus/CKD way of eating and training...the results have been AMAZING! My reps for pushups and squats doubled in just 2 weeks. The best part is apparently I'm not the only one who noticed, I have had multiple people come up and ask me what I've been doing because I've changed rapidly! I can't wait to see what 90+ days of this will do to me.


I will admit I do think the Creatine +stackers I've been using have been having an effect.


----------



## fat hiker

escapist said:


> Well I'm not so much trying to loose weight anymore. I kind of hit the wall at 464 lbs. So I decided to change it up and switch to an Body-Opus/CKD way of eating and training...the results have been AMAZING! My reps for pushups and squats doubled in just 2 weeks. The best part is apparently I'm not the only one who noticed, I have had multiple people come up and ask me what I've been doing because I've changed rapidly! I can't wait to see what 90+ days of this will do to me.
> 
> 
> I will admit I do think the Creatine +stackers I've been using have been having an effect.



Big and capable - good for you!


----------



## LeoGibson

I had a kick-ass workout today. I felt good so I decided to push it a little and worked up to 365 for 3 reps on squats. I know I could have got one more for sure and maybe even 2. Then I went and pulled 315 for five reps on deadlifts and I definitely think I could bump that another 10-15 lbs. All in all I'm pretty happy with the progress I'm making.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Ketogenic diets work incredibly well and creatine is one of the only worthwile supplements on the market, especially if it's kre alkalyn.




escapist said:


> Well I'm not so much trying to loose weight anymore. I kind of hit the wall at 464 lbs. So I decided to change it up and switch to an Body-Opus/CKD way of eating and training...the results have been AMAZING! My reps for pushups and squats doubled in just 2 weeks. The best part is apparently I'm not the only one who noticed, I have had multiple people come up and ask me what I've been doing because I've changed rapidly! I can't wait to see what 90+ days of this will do to me.
> 
> 
> I will admit I do think the Creatine +stackers I've been using have been having an effect.


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Ketogenic diets work incredibly well and creatine is one of the only worthwile supplements on the market, especially if it's kre alkalyn.




Actually no -- ketogenic diets are very unhealthy for ordinary people.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet


----------



## LeoGibson

bigmac said:


> Actually no -- ketogenic diets are very unhealthy for ordinary people.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet



Actually, unless you have a kidney disease it is not. It is completely safe for a healthy individual, although it isn't the most optimal for most people. There is a ton of updated research that debunks all those old theories. If you're actually interested it isn't hard to find, but you probably won't find it in Wikipedia or health and fitness magazine.


----------



## fat hiker

Hmmm... it's as if nobody actually read the wikipedia article, which hardly makes a case for a ketogenic diet being unhealthy, and which doesn't report on 'old theories' either. What the article does do is carefully separate out the the medical ketogenic diet for controlling epilepsy, from all the similar, somewhat ketogenic diets such as Atkins.

Thanks for the reference, it was great reading.


----------



## LeoGibson

fat hiker said:


> *Hmmm... it's as if nobody actually read the wikipedia article*, which hardly makes a case for a ketogenic diet being unhealthy, and which doesn't report on 'old theories' either. What the article does do is carefully separate out the the medical ketogenic diet for controlling epilepsy, from all the similar, somewhat ketogenic diets such as Atkins.
> 
> Thanks for the reference, it was great reading.



You have me there! I admit I just skimmed it and based my post on the arguments that those that claim it to be a dangerous diet use. This article, as you say, is more to do with the treatment of epilepsy, particularly in children.

It is not a diet I would choose for good health, especially long-term, but it is safe for healthy people to undertake.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Unless you have Type 1 diabetes, ketogenic diets are perfectly safe. Ultra low carb is only harmful to kidneys when people raise their protein intake too high to offset the carbs and stay low fat. You have to increase your fat intake.


----------



## hedonistthinker

weight loss is a simple formula.

basal metabolic rate+exercise (includes gym work and any acitvity other than resting)- calories consumed per day.

everytime you reach a 3500 calorie deficit you should lose a pound. now for best results, a slight amount of weight lifting is best to minimize muscle loss.

im currently 320 but i dont like this weight. im in that 2xl-3xl size limbo where 3xl is still a little too big but half of 2xl t-shirts are too tight and i hate it. i want to drop to 270-280 range and gain 10-15 pounds of muscle. then i can have that cuddly minotaur look i love :happy:. fat men should be meaty and manly ,fat women should be curvaceous and feminine but thats an aesthetic debate for another day.

if you want to drop fast for w.e reason. get a diatery suppressant, eat two meals a day and do 1 hour of cycling a day. you can drop about a pound a day like this, at least with my basal metabolic rate. since you are eating far less you should monitor the nutrients in such diet since its hard but not impossible to get all your needed nutritional needs with less than a 1000 calorie a day. good luck


----------



## itjoe

I've been 215+ since high school, shooting up to 280ish a while back and hovering around the 260 mark for a long time. Started eating healthier and doing cardio/strength training a couple weeks ago and today weighed in at 244.

May just get in shape this time..


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Eating a thousand calories per day is going to result in destroying muscle, especially with that amount of cardio and only light weight lifting, and as soon as you start eating a more normal caloric intake again, the fat will pile back on and body composition will be worse than if you never did anything.




hedonistthinker said:


> weight loss is a simple formula.
> 
> basal metabolic rate+exercise (includes gym work and any acitvity other than resting)- calories consumed per day.
> 
> everytime you reach a 3500 calorie deficit you should lose a pound. now for best results, a slight amount of weight lifting is best to minimize muscle loss.
> 
> im currently 320 but i dont like this weight. im in that 2xl-3xl size limbo where 3xl is still a little too big but half of 2xl t-shirts are too tight and i hate it. i want to drop to 270-280 range and gain 10-15 pounds of muscle. then i can have that cuddly minotaur look i love :happy:. fat men should be meaty and manly ,fat women should be curvaceous and feminine but thats an aesthetic debate for another day.
> 
> if you want to drop fast for w.e reason. get a diatery suppressant, eat two meals a day and do 1 hour of cycling a day. you can drop about a pound a day like this, at least with my basal metabolic rate. since you are eating far less you should monitor the nutrients in such diet since its hard but not impossible to get all your needed nutritional needs with less than a 1000 calorie a day. good luck


----------



## bigmac

hedonistthinker said:


> weight loss is a simple formula.
> 
> basal metabolic rate+exercise (includes gym work and any acitvity other than resting)- calories consumed per day.
> 
> everytime you reach a 3500 calorie deficit you should lose a pound. now for best results, a slight amount of weight lifting is best to minimize muscle loss.
> 
> ...



Its not nearly that simple. A person's metabolism rate is not constant -- it varies greatly with activity level, intensity of activity, type of food consumed, and even the weather. Hunger can also vary greatly. A person's fat storage and fat utilization are also influenced by endocrine responses.

Bottom line -- its almost impossible to get and remain thin by dieting. You can get leaner by exercising with enough intensity. However, its a lifelong commitment -- as many of us have painfully realized.


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## itjoe

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Eating a thousand calories per day is going to result in destroying muscle, especially with that amount of cardio and only light weight lifting, and as soon as you start eating a more normal caloric intake again, the fat will pile back on and body composition will be worse than if you never did anything.



Agreed. I'd focus more on strength training and slowly ramp up the cardio. I bought a road bike to make some fun out of it. Eat 1500-2000 calories per day and get 80-100g of protein, and you will get in better shape.

I've been losing 2-3 lbs per week following that plan, and becoming noticeably stronger.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Influenced by endocrine responses? How about completely controlled by endocrine responses.




bigmac said:


> Its not nearly that simple. A person's metabolism rate is not constant -- it varies greatly with activity level, intensity of activity, type of food consumed, and even the weather. Hunger can also vary greatly. A person's fat storage and fat utilization are also influenced by endocrine responses.
> 
> Bottom line -- its almost impossible to get and remain thin by dieting. You can get leaner by exercising with enough intensity. However, its a lifelong commitment -- as many of us have painfully realized.


----------



## fat hiker

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Eating a thousand calories per day is going to result in destroying muscle, especially with that amount of cardio and only light weight lifting, and as soon as you start eating a more normal caloric intake again, the fat will pile back on and body composition will be worse than if you never did anything.



Absolutely. There's a reason that 1200 calories a day is considered starvation or famine by the medical and relief communities - it is less than any healthy human should eat.

I worked one summer in a lab with a woman who was on a 900 calorie a day diet. Her energy levels and enthusiasm just got lower and lower, until one day, a few weeks into the diet, she just collapsed in the lab. In the hospital, she was stabilised, and apparently one of the attending doctors chewed her out for even attempting to do a diet with so little energy in it.


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## hedonistthinker

diets on low calorie alone are proved to always work. a professor even went months only eating oreos and twinkies and lost the desired weight to prove this point.

will you lose some muscle? sure, but its not nearly as much as people think since the body never prioritizes protein as a source of energy even in starvation until most of the storae fat is depleted. if this worries you, concentrate your few calories on protein sources and do some weight training.

will you gain it back? it depends. again the formula is constant only, the basal metaoblic rate changes once you lose weight but not too drastically. metabolism does slow down with less food, but not by more than few 100 calories in the worst case and a very heavy person has 2500 plus calories burned daily anyways. since you are eating far less for a month or so, your appetite may be more easily satisfied than before.


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## hedonistthinker

its very difficult and obviously if you are not feeling well, priotitize treating that first. a safer way to this diet is to eat normally, say every 3 days. eat say 1800-2000 calories. in a week that can be treating yourself thursday and sunday. this way you can lose 4-6 pounds a week and not accumulate a harmful deficiency


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## Geodetic_Effect

There are much better and more efficient ways to lose fat without starving yourself, and actually gain muscle at the same time. Your basal metabolic rate doesn't even matter. Hormones control everything.




hedonistthinker said:


> diets on low calorie alone are proved to always work. a professor even went months only eating oreos and twinkies and lost the desired weight to prove this point.
> 
> will you lose some muscle? sure, but its not nearly as much as people think since the body never prioritizes protein as a source of energy even in starvation until most of the storae fat is depleted. if this worries you, concentrate your few calories on protein sources and do some weight training.
> 
> will you gain it back? it depends. again the formula is constant only, the basal metaoblic rate changes once you lose weight but not too drastically. metabolism does slow down with less food, but not by more than few 100 calories in the worst case and a very heavy person has 2500 plus calories burned daily anyways. since you are eating far less for a month or so, your appetite may be more easily satisfied than before.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Right now I am experimenting with adding intermittent fasting to a ketogenic diet. In the short term, urinalysis is showing it is having the desired effect. I'll continue playing with it to see how well it works in the long term.


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## hedonistthinker

the endocrine system cannot create something from nothing. its that simple. UNLESS you have some severe disorder where the body breaks down lean tissue to make protein calories into fat, but healthy people do not need to worry about that.

the main point of fat is emergency energy storage to begin with. the body keeps fat to use as fuel when glycogen and all stored carbs run out, learn tissue is never in the priority list. especially if you are 50 pounds overweight or more.

instead of calling starvation, i would call it extended fasting :eat1:


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## hedonistthinker

i already lost 6 pounds in 5 days on this diet. i dont expect you to take me as source of course, so i got you a link

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/

and this is on an 1800 calorie diet of twinkies, not a balanced 1000 calorie diet and some light exercise as i recommend


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## bigmac

Geodetic takes things to extremes but he's right when he asserts that low calorie diets do not work. You may loose pounds in the short-term but the failure rate for such diets approaches 100%.

The only non-surgical way to loose weight and maintain the loss is total lifestyle change. This requires a lifelong commitment to a regime of fairly intense exercise (more intense than most people are willing to engage in) and the disciple to almost never eat junk (some amount of junk can be compensated for by increasing exercise intensity). Basically you pretty much have to live almost like the contestants on Biggest Looser. 

Very few people are able to do this -- hence the 95% long-term plus non-surgical weight loss failure rate. Personally I've been able to keep my weight down and fitness level up for several years at a time but life always intervenes and throws me off course. The one thing that I've never done is go on a reduced calorie diet -- thus I've maintained (or perhaps gained) muscle mass even as my total body weight has cycled. At 49 I'm considerably stronger than I was at 19 -- although I can't run nearly as fast or as far as I could back then.


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## hedonistthinker

the fact you gain alot of the weight back is proof the diet actually worked, you just decided to go back to overconsuming calories. after any diet, you must make sure not to have a caloric surplus. if your view is that dieting fails because after the diet you go back to normal calorically abundant food habits, then of course most diets will fail. its simply math

dont get me wrong, you are indeed right that most people gain all their weight back and some more within two years of a successful diet. but this is not the fault of the diet, but the post-diatery behaviour.


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## bigmac

Some people just need to learn the hard way. Get back to us in five years.


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## Geodetic_Effect

This literally made me lol



hedonistthinker said:


> the fact you gain alot of the weight back is proof the diet actually worked, you just decided to go back to overconsuming calories. after any diet, you must make sure not to have a caloric surplus. if your view is that dieting fails because after the diet you go back to normal calorically abundant food habits, then of course most diets will fail. its simply math
> 
> dont get me wrong, you are indeed right that most people gain all their weight back and some more within two years of a successful diet. but this is not the fault of the diet, but the post-diatery behaviour.


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## hedonistthinker

if you are not willing to understand the science of adipose tissue, thats fine with me, but hurling claims and cute tales at one another isnt the least bit convincing. 

if you are willing to disprove what i mentioned. please explain how a person loses 27 pounds with no exercise and only twinkies,doritos and oreos for ten weeks, if weight loss is more than calorie deficit. by all means answer this.

and lolling and self appeals of authority, dont count as evidence. please enlighten me.


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## Geodetic_Effect

loling is fun. while speaking of logical fallacies, it is a fallacy of logic to think because someone lost weight eating twinkies in a caloric deficit that it somehow proves other methods wrong. It's also a pointless display, not a single person has ever disputed that calorie deficits result in temporary weight loss. Never said you couldn't lose weight that way, it's just the wrong way to do it. It's not my fault you don't do better research. Real world, long term results are the only proof I need. There is a ridiculous amount of scientific research to back up as well, but results are king.




hedonistthinker said:


> if you are not willing to understand the science of adipose tissue, thats fine with me, but hurling claims and cute tales at one another isnt the least bit convincing.
> 
> if you are willing to disprove what i mentioned. please explain how a person loses 27 pounds with no exercise and only twinkies,doritos and oreos for ten weeks, if weight loss is more than calorie deficit. by all means answer this.
> 
> and lolling and self appeals of authority, dont count as evidence. please enlighten me.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Cool story bro. You can lose 6 pounds in less than an hour. Short term means nothing. I've lost over 120 lbs and not one single day was I in a calorie deficit. Surplus everyday. 



hedonistthinker said:


> i already lost 6 pounds in 5 days on this diet.


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## hedonistthinker

if you didnt count calories how did you even know you were in surplus? 

im guessing you weighted over 300 in the past? well often enough , people over 300 pounds have basal metabolic rates above 3000 calories. a 300 pound man in an hour of cycling can burn anywhere within 500-almost 1000 calories an hour. this is not even addin regular daily activity which isnt resting, which can account for 100-500 calories which are often ignored as metabolic rate.

thats 4500 calories (excluding whatever slight bump of metabolic burn you get from extra muscle tissue). now did you eat 4500 plus calories EVERYDAY? im not claiming you burned this, but a fat man with decent daily activity burns ALOT of calories and this is roughly a proof of that

any diet thats successful is so because of caloric deficit. being unaware of the deficit or the diet focusing on something else doesnt change its cause. the other way is if you took some supplement which might hinder caloric absorption. 

skepticism is a forced choice here. i can either believe personal testimony which may be explained by miscounting or underestimating calorie math or deception (i dont believe this is the case) or i can go with the academic lterature, which pretty much argues, calorie consumption is the most important factor in weight loss/gain.


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## Geodetic_Effect

At my heaviest I was 420 pounds. My daily caloric intake ranged from 6,000 to 10,000 kcal per day. I purposefully maintained an intake of 1,000 kcal above estimated caloric expenditure. The only supplement I took is ConcenTrace Trace Mineral Drops. Unless you count raw calve's liver, because that was my vitamin supplement. I even track the level of ketone bodies in my urine at least twice/day. My current regimen has me at a steady 160mg/dL at almost all times. You don't realize how thorough I am in my research and experimentation. The literature you are reading is incorrect in its assertion that only caloric deficits result in weight loss. There is plenty of scientific research that disputes this. There are thousands and thousands of people that get similar results with these methods, mostly bodybuilders. I have also repeated these results on several other people. There is also no rebounding with this method (slight amount of water weight returns when you come out of ketosis). This is due to the fact that ketogenic diets don't just empty the fat cells, they destroy them. There are no hormonal signals being sent by empty fat cells wanting to fill back up. Of course if you go back to old habits, you will gradually gain weight back, but with caloric deficits it comes back very, very fast. 

Side note: I kept track of calories purely for educational purposes and to make sure I ate enough to recover from heavy training load. I maintain that it is completely unnecessary if the sole goal is fat loss. 





hedonistthinker said:


> if you didnt count calories how did you even know you were in surplus?
> 
> im guessing you weighted over 300 in the past? well often enough , people over 300 pounds have basal metabolic rates above 3000 calories. a 300 pound man in an hour of cycling can burn anywhere within 500-almost 1000 calories an hour. this is not even addin regular daily activity which isnt resting, which can account for 100-500 calories which are often ignored as metabolic rate.
> 
> thats 4500 calories (excluding whatever slight bump of metabolic burn you get from extra muscle tissue). now did you eat 4500 plus calories EVERYDAY? im not claiming you burned this, but a fat man with decent daily activity burns ALOT of calories and this is roughly a proof of that
> 
> any diet thats successful is so because of caloric deficit. being unaware of the deficit or the diet focusing on something else doesnt change its cause. the other way is if you took some supplement which might hinder caloric absorption.
> 
> skepticism is a forced choice here. i can either believe personal testimony which may be explained by miscounting or underestimating calorie math or deception (i dont believe this is the case) or i can go with the academic lterature, which pretty much argues, calorie consumption is the most important factor in weight loss/gain.


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## Gingembre

Can someone clear up something for me...isn't a very low calorie diet a ketogenetic diet anyway? Because you're consuming so few calories that you're pushed over into ketosis? So aren't they botht he same thing regardless of whether you become ketotic through a low carb, high protein/fat diet or one that is just very low in calories overall?

I'm not trying to be awkward, just seeking clarficiation. Or am i confusing very low calories diets with those that just put you at a mild deficit, meaning you don't actually engage in ketosis fully?


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## LeoGibson

Gingembre said:


> Can someone clear up something for me...isn't a very low calorie diet a ketogenetic diet anyway? Because you're consuming so few calories that you're pushed over into ketosis? So aren't they botht he same thing regardless of whether you become ketotic through a low carb, high protein/fat diet or one that is just very low in calories overall?
> 
> I'm not trying to be awkward, just seeking clarficiation. Or am i confusing very low calories diets with those that just put you at a mild deficit, meaning you don't actually engage in ketosis fully?



the CliffsNotes version is, a ketogenic diet is one where you pretty much eat all protein all the time.you going into ketosis by keeping your carb count very low so that your body burns your stored fat for energy.there is more to it than that obviously but that's the quick take on it Think an extreme version of Atkins.


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## Geodetic_Effect

To get to a state of full on ketosis you have to be under approximately 30g of carbohyrdates per day. There is obviously some variation here, but staying under that number will guarantee that anyone will end up in ketosis. 1,000 kcals in twinkies is still around 180g of carbs. I'm sure you would be in some level of ketosis that low, also depending when you ate them. For example, if you ate all of the twinkies at one time at the end of the day you would get more into a ketogenic state than if you spread them out throughout the day. You could always play around with it and measure the ketone bodies in your urine to get an idea of where you are.

Whenever your caloric intake drops that low, it will put you in a different hormonal state than going ketogenic with larger consumption. If your 1,000 kcals comes from all meat, you will definitely be in a state of full ketosis, but your body is still going to have a starvation hormonal response which is what you are trying to avoid with this type of diet in the first place. 

For me, the point of doing a ketogenic diet is so you don't have to starve yourself, you don't have to have a lack of energy, you don't have to feel like shit, you don't have to lose muscle and you will lose fat quickly and keep it off. You can sustain a high level of training and gain muscle. Starving yourself is just silly to me. 

I actually do a version where you cycle in carbs periodically, again, to optimize hormonal response and avoid plateaus.



Gingembre said:


> Can someone clear up something for me...isn't a very low calorie diet a ketogenetic diet anyway? Because you're consuming so few calories that you're pushed over into ketosis? So aren't they botht he same thing regardless of whether you become ketotic through a low carb, high protein/fat diet or one that is just very low in calories overall?
> 
> I'm not trying to be awkward, just seeking clarficiation. Or am i confusing very low calories diets with those that just put you at a mild deficit, meaning you don't actually engage in ketosis fully?


----------



## bigmac

hedonistthinker said:


> if you are not willing to understand the science of adipose tissue, thats fine with me, but hurling claims and cute tales at one another isnt the least bit convincing.
> 
> if you are willing to disprove what i mentioned. please explain how a person loses 27 pounds with no exercise and only twinkies,doritos and oreos for ten weeks, if weight loss is more than calorie deficit. by all means answer this.
> 
> and lolling and self appeals of authority, dont count as evidence. please enlighten me.



Actually its you who doesn't understand the "science". No one ever claimed that low calorie diets don't work in the short-term. However, they are not long-term solutions. Indeed such dieting has very negative effects that have been repeatedly noted in the scientific literature.

The formula for loosing weight without damaging your health is not rocket science -- lots of exercise and a reasonable amount of high quality food. However, its not so easy for most people to actually do this in today's America.


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## hedonistthinker

the scientific literature is clear here.

1. long term fasting throughtout lifespan is life-extending. this has been shown in many animals, who on low calorie diets have 30 percent longer lifespans. this seems to be because certain survival genes are activated when this happens but this is still speculative. this of course is more difficult to test in humans for ethical reasons but the general trend cannot be denied. 

2. when patients are VERY mordbidly obese and require weight loss and bypass and the like are not an option ( most of the time, most doctors wont operate on 600 pound people as this has its own new set of risks) they will be put on very low calorie diets of 800-1200. most of the weight vanished rather quickly. if they do gain the weight back, its mostly because they regained their caloric habits afterwards

3. the success of by-pass surgery speaks for itself. its based on the low calorie model since, minimizing stomach size minimizes amount of calories capable of being absorbed per meal, making it very difficult to gain weight.most complications of bypass involve the actual tightness of the band and not the weight loss. in fact, rapid weight loss by bypass in many patients have put their diabetes in remission 

4. long term weight loss success depends on lifestyle change, but you are exaggerating its difficulty. if you look at japan or the many countries in europe with low obesity rates, or even the U.S in the past, being overweight or obese was/is fairly rare. it doesnt require athletic level of commitment.


----------



## hedonistthinker

Geodetic_Effect said:


> To get to a state of full on ketosis you have to be under approximately 30g of carbohyrdates per day. There is obviously some variation here, but staying under that number will guarantee that anyone will end up in ketosis. 1,000 kcals in twinkies is still around 180g of carbs. I'm sure you would be in some level of ketosis that low, also depending when you ate them. For example, if you ate all of the twinkies at one time at the end of the day you would get more into a ketogenic state than if you spread them out throughout the day. You could always play around with it and measure the ketone bodies in your urine to get an idea of where you are.
> 
> Whenever your caloric intake drops that low, it will put you in a different hormonal state than going ketogenic with larger consumption. If your 1,000 kcals comes from all meat, you will definitely be in a state of full ketosis, but your body is still going to have a starvation hormonal response which is what you are trying to avoid with this type of diet in the first place.
> 
> For me, the point of doing a ketogenic diet is so you don't have to starve yourself, you don't have to have a lack of energy, you don't have to feel like shit, you don't have to lose muscle and you will lose fat quickly and keep it off. You can sustain a high level of training and gain muscle. Starving yourself is just silly to me.
> 
> I actually do a version where you cycle in carbs periodically, again, to optimize hormonal response and avoid plateaus.




ketosis could be effective, for a simple reason. the body is built to use carbs as calorie fuel best. fats and protein are not the bodies preferred fuel and in converting these 2 sources to energy, loses a certain percent just on that transition (i believe form fat to energy it can be as much as 22 percent but im not sure) if you are on a strict ketosis diet where 80 percent of your calories are protein, you can be losing 0.5-1 calorie per gram of protein in the exchange (protein is 4 calories per gram). and thats a significant calorie loss right there.


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## Geodetic_Effect

You do NOT want to eat a diet of 80% protein. That will damage your kidneys. 

I've gone over this before in here, those calorie burning figures and estimates are fallacious. They are based on taking a single fuel source, putting it in a closed system, igniting it, then measuring the heat energy given off. Guess what? Your body doesn't use fuel like that. Your body also doesn't sit there at all times converting every available unit of energy in a food to fat. Hormones direct what happens to that fuel. If in ketosis, with an adequate calorie intake, your body will not store fat. It just is not able to, rendering calorie restriction pointless.


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## Gingembre

Geodetic_Effect said:


> To get to a state of full on ketosis you have to be under approximately 30g of carbohyrdates per day. There is obviously some variation here, but staying under that number will guarantee that anyone will end up in ketosis. 1,000 kcals in twinkies is still around 180g of carbs. I'm sure you would be in some level of ketosis that low, also depending when you ate them. For example, if you ate all of the twinkies at one time at the end of the day you would get more into a ketogenic state than if you spread them out throughout the day. You could always play around with it and measure the ketone bodies in your urine to get an idea of where you are.
> 
> Whenever your caloric intake drops that low, it will put you in a different hormonal state than going ketogenic with larger consumption. If your 1,000 kcals comes from all meat, you will definitely be in a state of full ketosis, but your body is still going to have a starvation hormonal response which is what you are trying to avoid with this type of diet in the first place.
> 
> For me, the point of doing a ketogenic diet is so you don't have to starve yourself, you don't have to have a lack of energy, you don't have to feel like shit, you don't have to lose muscle and you will lose fat quickly and keep it off. You can sustain a high level of training and gain muscle. Starving yourself is just silly to me.
> 
> I actually do a version where you cycle in carbs periodically, again, to optimize hormonal response and avoid plateaus.





LeoGibson said:


> the CliffsNotes version is, a ketogenic diet is one where you pretty much eat all protein all the time.you going into ketosis by keeping your carb count very low so that your body burns your stored fat for energy.there is more to it than that obviously but that's the quick take on it Think an extreme version of Atkins.



Makes sense. Thanks guys


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## bigmac

What is it they say about a little bit of knowledge?




hedonistthinker said:


> the scientific literature is clear here.
> 
> 1. long term fasting throughtout lifespan is life-extending. this has been shown in many animals, who on low calorie diets have 30 percent longer lifespans. this seems to be because certain survival genes are activated when this happens but this is still speculative. this of course is more difficult to test in humans for ethical reasons but the general trend cannot be denied.



Mice live longer. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to work with primates.

http://www.nature.com/news/calorie-restriction-falters-in-the-long-run-1.11297




hedonistthinker said:


> 2. when patients are VERY mordbidly obese and require weight loss and bypass and the like are not an option ( most of the time, most doctors wont operate on 600 pound people as this has its own new set of risks) they will be put on very low calorie diets of 800-1200. most of the weight vanished rather quickly. if they do gain the weight back, its mostly because they regained their caloric habits afterwards



No one ever said very low calorie diets didn't work in the short term. However, their long-term effectiveness is actually worse than zero since they have a negative effect on health. Preoperative calorie restriction facilitates surgery its not a long-term cure. 




hedonistthinker said:


> 3. the success of by-pass surgery speaks for itself. its based on the low calorie model since, minimizing stomach size minimizes amount of calories capable of being absorbed per meal, making it very difficult to gain weight.most complications of bypass involve the actual tightness of the band and not the weight loss. in fact, rapid weight loss by bypass in many patients have put their diabetes in remission



You're mixing up surgeries. "Bypass" operations don't have "bands". There are multiple types of WLS. Some surgeries create malabsorption, some restrict eating, and some do both. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariatric_surgery

Thus your analysis is misleadingly simplistic. Surgeries that severe nerves associated with hunger appear to be the most effective. Indeed the extremely dramatic decrease in hunger associated with some types of WLS (i.e. gastric sleeve) is likely responsible for a significant portion of the observed results. Without this short circuiting of hunger response WLS won't be nearly as effective. 



hedonistthinker said:


> 4. long term weight loss success depends on lifestyle change, but you are exaggerating its difficulty. if you look at japan or the many countries in europe with low obesity rates, or even the U.S in the past, being overweight or obese was/is fairly rare. it doesnt require athletic level of commitment.



Life-long lifestyle change is exactly what's required for a fat person to force his or her body thin. Maintaining the status quo is always easier than forcing something to a different level. The level of "commitment" required for a thin person to remain thin is an order of magnitude less than that required to force a fat body thin. You're right that it doesn't take that much effort to keep an ordinary Japanese person thin. However, that's not what's being discussed here. The more appropriate analogy would be the effort to would take to get a sumo wrestler thin for the rest of his life.


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## Geodetic_Effect

http://www.businessinsider.com/our-war-on-fat-was-a-huge-mistake-graphs-2013-11


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## Yakatori

Maybe a more direct or simple approach would be for you to just list, side by side and approximately, what you eat in a normal day vis a vis how much physical work you actually do. 

So, some people will just get a sense of what 30kg of carbs looks-like. Or sufficient protein for, say, +300lbs "fat-guy" that's lifting some weights and exercising regularly.


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## Geodetic_Effect

I pretty much eat meat, eggs, and organs on a normal day. Some greens and a bit of other vegetables.



Yakatori said:


> Maybe a more direct or simple approach would be for you to just list, side by side and approximately, what you eat in a normal day vis a vis how much physical work you actually do.
> 
> So, some people will just get a sense of what 30kg of carbs looks-like. Or sufficient protein for, say, +300lbs "fat-guy" that's lifting some weights and exercising regularly.


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> I pretty much eat meat, eggs, and organs on a normal day. Some greens and a bit of other vegetables.



If it works for you who am I to argue. However, many people, myself included, do not function well if we don't consume sufficient fruits and vegetables. To function at peak capacity I need to consume at 40% of my calories from fruits, vegetables, and nuts. When I don't I don't function well mentally or physically. If I needed to categorize I guess I eat a cross between a paleo and Mediterranean diet. 

That said I agree with you that the "war on fat" has been totally misguided and counterproductive. I eat as many eggs as I feel like (varies greatly), red meat, and whole milk. I don't have a sweet tooth and don't drink sweetened beverages. However, there's no way I'm ever going to give up the occasional plate of blueberry pancakes.


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## Geodetic_Effect

You will feel like shit during the initial transition, It takes 7 to 9 days to get into ketosis. Days 4 and 5 can be rough, but if you just deal with it and get past it, you don't feel like shit anymore.

Also, once in ketosis, you can still occasionally smash things like blueberry pancakes without any negative effects. 



bigmac said:


> If it works for you who am I to argue. However, many people, myself included, do not function well if we don't consume sufficient fruits and vegetables. To function at peak capacity I need to consume at 40% of my calories from fruits, vegetables, and nuts. When I don't I don't function well mentally or physically. If I needed to categorize I guess I eat a cross between a paleo and Mediterranean diet.
> 
> That said I agree with you that the "war on fat" has been totally misguided and counterproductive. I eat as many eggs as I feel like (varies greatly), red meat, and whole milk. I don't have a sweet tooth and don't drink sweetened beverages. However, there's no way I'm ever going to give up the occasional plate of blueberry pancakes.


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## Geodetic_Effect

This all day. 

View attachment arn55868_10200333919869763_1835825655_n.jpg


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## Yakatori

But, correct me if I'm wrong, that's because...in the ketosis-state, protein/amino acids are (also) being used as a significant form of fuel...

How do you, basically, know that you're in that state? Does it really require such sophisticated (e.g testing urine) analysis? Or can you pretty much do-it just managing diet and work-load? I'm trying to get a sense of how it's so different from someone who just limits sugar & carbohydrates, and as often finds themselves making up the difference in loss of calories with protein & vegetables. What is so special about organ-meats? Does something like Liverwurst count? Or do you try to minimize things like salt or preservatives?


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## Geodetic_Effect

Fat is your body's second choice for energy production, so in a carb depleted state it will burn fat for energy. As long as caloric intake doesn't drop too low, it won't go after the muscle. Your body is efficient, if you aren't taking in enough calories it will get rid of muscle, especially if you aren't using it, because there is an energy cost to keep it. Fat stores don't require energy to sustain. They are passive. Your muscles however, are actively using energy, removing it reduces your daily caloric needs. 

You don't have to test, it's not really sophisticated though. If you are under 30g carbs/day, after 7 to 9 days you are there. No other testing required. I just play with different things and gauge the results. Organ meats contain a wide array of micronutrients and a high healthy fat content. Yes liverwurst counts, although there really isn't much liver in it. For health reasons you can look at salt/mineral ratios and avoid preservatives, but it won't really matter for fat loss. 





Yakatori said:


> But, correct me if I'm wrong, that's because...in the ketosis-state, protein/amino acids are (also) being used as a significant form of fuel...
> 
> How do you, basically, know that you're in that state? Does it really require such sophisticated (e.g testing urine) analysis? Or can you pretty much do-it just managing diet and work-load? I'm trying to get a sense of how it's so different from someone who just limits sugar & carbohydrates, and as often finds themselves making up the difference in loss of calories with protein & vegetables. What is so special about organ-meats? Does something like Liverwurst count? Or do you try to minimize things like salt or preservatives?


----------



## bigmac

I'm not buying it.

_High protein, low-carb diets can cause a number of health problems, including:

*Kidney failure*. Consuming too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, which can make a person susceptible to kidney disease.

High cholesterol. It is well known that high-protein diets (consisting of red meat, whole dairy products, and other high fat foods) are linked to high cholesterol. Studies have linked high cholesterol levels to an increased risk of developing heart disease, stroke, and cancer.

*Osteoporosis and kidney stones.* High-protein diets have also been shown to cause people to excrete a large amount of calcium in their urine. Over a prolonged period of time, this can increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones. A diet that increases protein at the expense of a very restrictive intake of plant carbohydrates may be bad for bones, but not necessarily a high-protein intake alone.

*Cancer.* One of the reasons high-protein diets increase the risks of certain health problems is because of the avoidance of carbohydrate-containing foods and the vitamins, minerals, fiber, and antioxidants they contain. It is therefore important to obtain your protein from a diet rich in whole grains, fruits, and vegetables. Not only are your needs for protein being met, but you are also helping to reduce your risk of developing cancer.

*Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis)*. Low-carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath. Ketosis can be prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day._

http://www.webmd.com/diet/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets


----------



## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> This all day.



It should also be noted that:

_... Arnold wasn't anti-carb, except when cutting up for a competition. But he was pro whole foods ... _


http://www.howtobefit.com/body-building-nutrition.htm


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Definitely big differences in bulking and cutting phases. You are also going to have a much different approach as a skinny guy trying to gain a lot of lean mass. But it also has to be noted he was on a huge amount of steroids. Makes a pretty big difference lol.



bigmac said:


> It should also be noted that:
> 
> _... Arnold wasn't anti-carb, except when cutting up for a competition. But he was pro whole foods ... _
> 
> 
> http://www.howtobefit.com/body-building-nutrition.htm


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Webmd gets so much wrong here, especially when it comes to cholesterol. I'd have to recommend a large list of books and research for you to understand why though. The medical community in general gives horrible nutrition advice. 

And again, high protein/low carb diets are only damaging when one does not consume enough fat. That's why I would never advocate an 80% protein diet. 



bigmac said:


> I'm not buying it.
> 
> _High protein, low-carb diets can cause a number of health problems, including:
> 
> *Kidney failure*. Consuming too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, which can make a person susceptible to kidney disease.
> 
> High cholesterol. It is well known that high-protein diets (consisting of red meat, whole dairy products, and other high fat foods) are linked to high cholesterol. Studies have linked high cholesterol levels to an increased risk of developing heart disease, stroke, and cancer.
> 
> *Osteoporosis and kidney stones.* High-protein diets have also been shown to cause people to excrete a large amount of calcium in their urine. Over a prolonged period of time, this can increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones. A diet that increases protein at the expense of a very restrictive intake of plant carbohydrates may be bad for bones, but not necessarily a high-protein intake alone.
> 
> *Cancer.* One of the reasons high-protein diets increase the risks of certain health problems is because of the avoidance of carbohydrate-containing foods and the vitamins, minerals, fiber, and antioxidants they contain. It is therefore important to obtain your protein from a diet rich in whole grains, fruits, and vegetables. Not only are your needs for protein being met, but you are also helping to reduce your risk of developing cancer.
> 
> *Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis)*. Low-carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath. Ketosis can be prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day._
> 
> http://www.webmd.com/diet/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets


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## Geodetic_Effect

Science for Smart People is a good place to start. Yes, he is a comedian, not a scientist, but it is true and entertaining.


----------



## warwagon86

I have been on a health kick as of late! Much like Hoozay I am eating keto and drinking tons of water except I am aiming for 8-10 litres a day!

I take the dog a 3.5 mile walk EVERYDAY without fail! And sometimes a second one where I jog and walk in intervals!

Lost 42lbs in just over a month so far!


----------



## michiganbhm

Down to 296.6 from 310


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## Ninja Glutton

I can speak to the effectiveness and healthiness of keto from a type 2 diabetic perspective as well.

I went full-on keto for a few months over the summer and, since I have regular blood testing as per my endocrinologist's wishes, I was able to directly see the results.

Within 2 months of the diet, I had dropped 47 lbs and my blood sugars were in the normal 70-110 range at all times of the day. My triglycerides plummeted 200 points, my a1c was a 6.0 and my cholesterol was LOWER. I couldn't believe it. I had been eating butter, eggs, meat, cheese, olive oil, small amounts of nuts, coconut oil, avocados, etc. High fat, medium protein, little to no carbs.

Trust me, it gets easy after about a week. I never had a "keto flu" because I drank enough water. It's so strange to have such consistent energy and blood sugar, especially for a diabetic. I was so used to the peaks and valleys of blood sugar spikes and that post-lunch comatose state. It doesn't happen with keto. It never did. The hardest part was sometimes finding the tiredness to fall asleep because you have such consistent energy all day.

I'm only speaking from experience. I couldn't do this diet long term because carbs are so directly linked to my good mood chemicals and I was starting to get depressed without them. I couldn't do it as a whole lifestyle, but I've maintained my weight loss and it was a great kickstart to a healthier lifestyle and the fact that I used the Lose It! smartphone app so much for the diet helped me learn to estimate the calories and take note of everything that I'm eating. I'm by no means skinny or even chubby, I'm still fat. I just have the blood work to prove that I'm finally HEALTHY.

I would highly recommend this diet for people who can handle it, as it did nothing but good for me. It was the first time I've been to the doctor's and had them tell me nothing but good things and give me honest praise. It feels good when you're fat and that doesn't happen very often.

Just my $.02


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## Geodetic_Effect

"A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics"


----------



## HugeBellyUK

Very interesting discussion.
I tried low carb for the first time last year after reading many success stories and chatting to a few who were doing it. Watched some very enlightening youtube videos explaining why we get fat.

I lost 38lbs, but had an intentional break over Christmas and managed to put 10-15 back on which I was a bit surprised about. I never expected to gain that much in such a short amount of time. Even now few days after the celebrations I'm still feeling the carb cravings but trying to get back on track.

Low carb amazingly does work, but like any diet you have to keep to it. Temptation is always there especially when hungry, carb foods are just so convenient and it's easy to end up over eating them and gaining weight.

For anyone trying to lose weight, I recommend reducing the carbs and using MyFitnessPal.com to track nutrition, it makes it so much easier.

Happy 2014, and best of luck to those trying to control their weight for whatever reason.


----------



## edvis

Glad to see that weight loss is not a taboo subject on this forum. I have been, but have slacked up a bit since having a wisdom tooth pulled 1-13-14. Got a training session on Thursday and should get back on track. It's not about the looks, it's about the health. Unfortunately some forums don't see it that way and many get offended at the the word "weight loss."


----------



## bigmac

Weighed 299.2 pounds this morning after a three mile run (actually more of a slow jog). First time I've been less than 300 pounds in about eight years. I added running to my exercise program three weeks ago and I'm already seeing results.


----------



## MattB

Not trying to lose weight per se, but yes...running will do it. I'm down to 220 just from running. I'm not even doing much resistance training, and weights used to be my thing.

I hate running BTW. 

(I've said this many times before, but even though I'm getting better at it- still not a fan.)


----------



## blackcaesarbhm

i'm currently on the Atkins Diet for last two weeks...


----------



## Smite

I salute anyone who is dieting here. I lost about 200 pounds over the last two years and it's paid wonders off in my life. Keto and low carb are alright solutions, but the important thing is just stop eating junk and soda. Kick that shit out and you'll be in slim ville in no time. 

Or sign up for myfitnesspal.com and profit.


----------



## bigmac

Smite said:


> I salute anyone who is dieting here. I lost about 200 pounds over the last two years and it's paid wonders off in my life. Keto and low carb are alright solutions, but the important thing is *just stop eating junk and soda*. Kick that shit out and you'll be in slim ville in no time.
> 
> Or sign up for myfitnesspal.com and profit.



Obesity is an expression of of multiple factors -- some physical some genetic some behavioral some environmental. If a major reason a particular individual is fat is over consumption of junk food and soda then yes stopping their consumption will definitely help. However, there are fat people out there who hardly ever drink soda or eat junk food. I've been fat since I was a small child. I've made a conscious effort to eat healthy since I was in high school. I'm not going to say that I've never eaten things that are bad for me but overall I think I've been pretty good at avoiding junk. I believe that staying away from junk food has prevented me from getting fatter -- I was seventy pounds overweight when I was 13 and now that I'm almost 50 I'm still seventy pounds overweight. The only times I've been able to reduce my weight was when I exercised intensely on a regular basis. Of course when, for numerous reasons, I stopped or cut back on the exercise the weight came right back.


----------



## Smite

If you eat healthy and within a normal / losing amount of calories / other micros you will lose weight. There's literally nothing else to it. 

Things might contribute to making someone overweight / obese but when it comes down to it, self control is all that matters.


----------



## tankyguy

I've cut out all soda pop for a month now and now that the warm weather is here I've started hiking up a small hill a couple times a day. If by summer it gets easy I'll start loading up a rucksack with cinder blocks while I do it.


----------



## bigmac

Smite said:


> If you eat healthy and within a normal / losing amount of calories / other micros you will lose weight. There's literally nothing else to it.
> 
> Things might contribute to making someone overweight / obese but when it comes down to it, self control is all that matters.



If only it were actually that easy.


----------



## Wanderer

Smite said:


> If you eat healthy and within a normal / losing amount of calories / other micros you will lose weight. There's literally nothing else to it.
> 
> Things might contribute to making someone overweight / obese but when it comes down to it, self control is all that matters.



Leaving aside special cases such as hypothalamic obesity, a "normal/losing" amount of Calories is different for each individual. Basal metabolism is affected not only by the amount of muscle available to burn Calories, but also viruses, (Adenovirus 36 being the most notable), genetics and prior starvation and semi-starvation conditions.

(If you add in the special cases, things can get downright scary. Hypothalamic obesity is like something out of a gainer story, except it's real -- you're always hungry, and unless you outright starve yourself, all diet and exercise can do is slow down your gain.)

So please, while losing weight may be nothing but self-control for you, it simply isn't that easy for everyone, no matter what the popular wisdom may insist. Not every fat person eats tons of food, any more than every skinny person starves themselves.


----------



## BigChaz

Wanderer said:


> Leaving aside special cases such as hypothalamic obesity, a "normal/losing" amount of Calories is different for each individual. Basal metabolism is affected not only by the amount of muscle available to burn Calories, but also viruses, (Adenovirus 36 being the most notable), genetics and prior starvation and semi-starvation conditions.
> 
> (If you add in the special cases, things can get downright scary. Hypothalamic obesity is like something out of a gainer story, except it's real -- you're always hungry, and unless you outright starve yourself, all diet and exercise can do is slow down your gain.)
> 
> So please, while losing weight may be nothing but self-control for you, it simply isn't that easy for everyone, no matter what the popular wisdom may insist. Not every fat person eats tons of food, any more than every skinny person starves themselves.



Most fat people are fat because they do fat people stuff. Sorry to rain on the parade


----------



## kilo riley

tankyguy said:


> I've cut out all soda pop for a month now and now that the warm weather is here *I've started hiking up a small hill a couple times a day. If by summer it gets easy I'll start loading up a rucksack with cinder blocks while I do it.*



I got winded just reading that.


----------



## kilo riley

BigChaz said:


> Most fat people are fat because they do fat people stuff. Sorry to rain on the parade



lol true

Wanderer is right when it comes to some folks. But most of us are fat because we're doing fat people stuff.

Fat people stuff I've done so far this week:

- Binge watch last seasons Game of Thrones with my buddies Ben and Jerry.
- drank 6 pints of lager then asked the cab driver if he could go through the Jack in the Box drive thru 

And it's only Tuesday.


----------



## bigmac

BigChaz said:


> Most fat people are fat because they do fat people stuff. Sorry to rain on the parade



Many people are fat because they did "fat people stuff" during a critical period for fat cell development. I did indeed drink too many sodas when I was six years old and as a result I was a fat kid. I've been doing my best to eat healthy and exercise since I was 15. However, I'll never be a normal thin person. So long as I workout hard at least four or five times a week I can stay just a little chunky -- that seems to be as good as it gets and even that takes a lot of effort (I'm currently trying to work back down to just a little chunky).

Stopping the consumption of soda and junk food will not turn a fat person into a thin person (unless of course you have a time machine and can stop them from getting fat in the first place).


----------



## bigmac

kilo riley said:


> lol true
> 
> Wanderer is right when it comes to some folks. But most of us are fat because we're doing fat people stuff.
> 
> Fat people stuff I've done so far this week:
> 
> - Binge watch last seasons Game of Thrones with my buddies Ben and Jerry.
> - drank 6 pints of lager then asked the cab driver if he could go through the Jack in the Box drive thru
> 
> And it's only Tuesday.



This week I've run 13 miles and gone to the gym 4 times. I haven't had any beer (I had one glass of wine while watching the new episode of Game of Thrones). I did go to Carl's Jr. twice -- both times I had a low carb burger (big lettuce leaves instead of a bun) a side salad and unsweetened ice tea. My alarm is set for 5:00 am so I can run another five miles before work tomorrow. AND I'M STILL FAT!


----------



## BigChaz

bigmac said:


> This week I've run 13 miles and gone to the gym 4 times. I haven't had any beer (I had one glass of wine while watching the new episode of Game of Thrones). I did go to Carl's Jr. twice -- both times I had a low carb burger (big lettuce leaves instead of a bun) a side salad and unsweetened ice tea. My alarm is set for 5:00 am so I can run another five miles before work tomorrow. AND I'M STILL FAT!



I've watched a lot of cartoons and I have learned that if you montage or do something for like a day or two the changes should be drastic.

You may be right...


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## bigmac

BigChaz said:


> I've watched a lot of cartoons and I have learned that if you montage or do something for like a day or two the changes should be drastic.
> 
> You may be right...



A day or two? Fuck that -- I've been more active than 90% of the population my entire life. How many 300 pound people do you know that can run five plus miles before work. I can do it because I've been active my entire adult life.


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## kilo riley

bigmac said:


> This week I've run 13 miles and gone to the gym 4 times. I haven't had any beer (I had one glass of wine while watching the new episode of Game of Thrones). I did go to Carl's Jr. twice -- both times I had a low carb burger (big lettuce leaves instead of a bun) a side salad and unsweetened ice tea. My alarm is set for 5:00 am so I can run another five miles before work tomorrow. AND I'M STILL FAT!



Yeah...I should probably just speak for myself. I'm fat cuz I do fat people things. 

But like you said, you work out, run, eat well, and you're still fat. If I did all those things I probably wouldn't be fat. I'm just a lazy bastard.


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## vardon_grip

It is my opinion that we look for reasons that "prove" why we are fat or why we can't lose weight because we don't want to be at fault when it comes to our obesity. If obesity is out of our control, then we can't be blamed and there is no need to make an effort. Be happy and be whatever you really want to be.


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## Dromond

I've started keeping a food diary. Tracking what I eat, the calorie count, that sort of thing. It's not a diet as such, because I'm not changing my eating habits - which are pretty good - but rather being aware of how much I eat. My goal is to slowly drop weight over a long period. A sudden and radical change of diet would be a recipe for failure, so I'm going with the philosophy of slow and steady wins the race.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

bigmac said:


> Many people are fat because they did "fat people stuff" during a critical period for fat cell development. I did indeed drink too many sodas when I was six years old and as a result I was a fat kid. I've been doing my best to eat healthy and exercise since I was 15. However, I'll never be a normal thin person. So long as I workout hard at least four or five times a week I can stay just a little chunky -- that seems to be as good as it gets and even that takes a lot of effort (I'm currently trying to work back down to just a little chunky).



If you'd listen to what I say, and actually follow it, you could be ripped if that's what you wanted.


----------



## Smite

I didn't say you're fat because you ate too much junk food or are lazy, i'm saying if you eat under the average caloreis you should be eating you're going to lose weight. There's no psuedoscience or anything you can say to spin it otherwise. If you stop eating junk food and stay below your limits you will lose weight. That's not to say there isn't factors that mean people can't keep control (most people overeat like hell because they don't know portion control), i'm saying that there's literally no way for someone to eat under a caloric limit and not lose weight.


----------



## bigmac

Smite said:


> I didn't say you're fat because you ate too much junk food or are lazy, i'm saying if you eat under the average caloreis you should be eating you're going to lose weight. There's no psuedoscience or anything you can say to spin it otherwise. If you stop eating junk food and stay below your limits you will lose weight. That's not to say there isn't factors that mean people can't keep control (most people overeat like hell because they don't know portion control), i'm saying that there's literally no way for someone to eat under a caloric limit and not lose weight.




While the laws of thermodynamics obviously apply fat metabolism is a hell of a lot more complicated than just calories in calories out. And goals should include more than just numbers on a scale -- muscle mass needs to be preserved, blood sugar and fat levels need to be maintained at acceptable levels, basal metabolic level needs to be maintained or increased ... .

Simple calorie restriction has proved an ineffective method of long-term weight loss. And weight that is lost comes at a price.


----------



## Paquito

I think it's kind of incredible how people can come on a website full of fat people - fat people who have wildly diverse experiences and have routinely debunked popular weight loss myths - and still spout off the same old weight loss advice like it's completely, undeniably true. Bodies are diverse and don't all work the same. It's okay to accept that.


----------



## Tad

Paquito said:


> I think it's kind of incredible how people can come on a website full of fat people - fat people who have wildly diverse experiences and have routinely debunked popular weight loss myths - and still spout off the same old weight loss advice like it's completely, undeniably true. Bodies are diverse and don't all work the same. It's okay to accept that.



Agreed. But so long as such stuff stays on this thread--where presumably come looking for discussions around this topic--and nobody starts telling other what they _should_ be doing with their body and life (as opposed to what I've mostly seen which is "if you want A, do B and you will get it--guaranteed!"), I'm not going to object to it as a moderator.

tl;dr version:

- (as moderator) as long as you don't proselytize or abuse, discuss it as you want on this thread
- (as a random board participant) Human bodies vary tremendously, and not all respond the way that the majority respond--so when someone makes blanket, prescriptive, statements about what will work for all bodies, it makes me less inclined to believe anything they say, rather than more.


----------



## bigmac

Paquito said:


> I think it's kind of incredible how people can come on a website full of fat people - fat people who have wildly diverse experiences and have routinely debunked popular weight loss myths - and still spout off the same old weight loss advice like it's completely, undeniably true. Bodies are diverse and don't all work the same. It's okay to accept that.



Yes! One thing to add -- while bodies are certainly diverse and respond to external stimuli is diverse ways one thing that is clearly apparent is that for the vast majority of people (i.e. more than 95%) calorie restriction alone is not the path to long-term weight loss. Its down right infuriating when people sanctimoniously espouse that weight loss is a simple matter of just eating less.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

The underlying biochemistry for all humans is the same, barring any REAL medical conditions, which the vast majority of people do not have. Insulin controls fat storage and Leptin controls fat burning (there are some other hormones involved, but those are the main and if they are under control, the others fall in line.). If manipulated correctly they will lose fat. The optimal ranges for individuals will vary, but staying below the lowest threshold in that range will always result in fat loss. Some more quickly than others, but as long as they stick too it, they will achieve their goals without starving themselves. Once they reach that goal they can then experiment with different methods to see what works best for them maintaining the losses.


----------



## LeoGibson

Geodetic_Effect said:


> The underlying biochemistry for all humans is the same, barring any REAL medical conditions, which the vast majority of people do not have. Insulin controls fat storage and Leptin controls fat burning (there are some other hormones involved, but those are the main and if they are under control, the others fall in line.). If manipulated correctly they will lose fat. The optimal ranges for individuals will vary, but staying below the lowest threshold in that range will always result in fat loss. Some more quickly than others, but as long as they stick too it, they will achieve their goals without starving themselves. Once they reach that goal they can then experiment with different methods to see what works best for them maintaining the losses.



I'd be interested in learning more about this topic. Do you have any resources you'd recommend reading on hormone manipulation through nutrition. I know for myself it's a tough nut to balance between eating enough to recover and keep adding weight to the bar without adding a bunch of fat to go with it.


----------



## Iannathedriveress

Over the past two months I lost a lot of weight because I been having a lot of problems with my stomach. I went from 255 to 212 so far. There hasn't been much food in my stomach because I have a hard time trusting most foods. I been loving the weight loss but I just don't know much I can take my stomach issue for any longer.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

It's definitely difficult to gain as much strength as you would like while cutting fat. That's why bodybuilders have different phases. Those of us that are cutting from weights over 400 pounds obviously have a lot more work to do in the cutting department. So doing a full ketogenic diet is more beneficial than starting with something like carb backloading. Start with the works of John Kiefer. Excellent resource, he cites everything, compiled a ton of information from the peer reviewed research journals. Also, get some textbooks on Human Physiology, Biochemistry, and Endocrinology. The Endocrine System is very interesting. Hormones control everything. Be warned, if you are OCD about this stuff and fact checking like I am, it leads to endless hours of reading. Kiefer's first book has something like 9,000 citations. I've literally been researching this topic for 6 years. 




LeoGibson said:


> I'd be interested in learning more about this topic. Do you have any resources you'd recommend reading on hormone manipulation through nutrition. I know for myself it's a tough nut to balance between eating enough to recover and keep adding weight to the bar without adding a bunch of fat to go with it.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

One extra bit of info I can tell you, ignore his caloric recommendations if you are training hard. He doesn't even really recommend hard training while cutting fat like that. I have done it, it works great. Just eat whenever you are hungry until you are satisfied, within his other guidelines. 

Whatever you do, do not skimp on fat. Between 60-65% of my calories come from fat. Just don't get them from vegetable oils. Eat grass-fed meat/butter/tallow, pasture raised eggs, use quality coconut and olive oils. Lots of braising, drink the juices, so many quality nutrients, especially glycosaminoglycans, which people don't get nearly enough of. Also don't forget to eat organs. Grassfed beef liver is the single greatest source of nutrition out there. 

This is another good book I forgot to mention: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

Epigenetics is another very interesting topic as it relates to nutrition. While DNA is hardcoded, how the DNA is expressed is not. Environmental factors can change which genes are expressed. Your diet can literally change your genetics, it's fascinating.


----------



## LeoGibson

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Epigenetics is another very interesting topic as it relates to nutrition. While DNA is hardcoded, how the DNA is expressed is not. Environmental factors can change which genes are expressed. Your diet can literally change your genetics, it's fascinating.



Thanks for the tips. I'm definitely going to look into this area of research. Although I wonder if I'll feel the same after I go down the rabbit hole, I can get a little OCD myself when experimenting with new things. The last decent nutrition book I read that pertained to lifting was The Anabolic Diet by Mauro DiPasquale, but that was a dozen or so years ago and it was an older book then.

I'm not trying to cut per se, but rather not gain fat but still eat enough to gain strength. I really don't care as much for body comp, my main goal is strength. If some body recomp happens, great, if not, it's not that big of a deal as long as I continue to see the numbers go up on the bar. The two areas right now that intrigue me are hormonal manipulation through diet and training and training the CNS for strength gains moreso than just going for bigger muscles. I know that as a by-product of strength comes muscularity, but it's not my main concern as much as tendon and ligament strength and CNS training is.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

5/3/1/ by Jim Wendler and Carb Back-Loading by John Kiefer



LeoGibson said:


> Thanks for the tips. I'm definitely going to look into this area of research. Although I wonder if I'll feel the same after I go down the rabbit hole, I can get a little OCD myself when experimenting with new things. The last decent nutrition book I read that pertained to lifting was The Anabolic Diet by Mauro DiPasquale, but that was a dozen or so years ago and it was an older book then.
> 
> I'm not trying to cut per se, but rather not gain fat but still eat enough to gain strength. I really don't care as much for body comp, my main goal is strength. If some body recomp happens, great, if not, it's not that big of a deal as long as I continue to see the numbers go up on the bar. The two areas right now that intrigue me are hormonal manipulation through diet and training and training the CNS for strength gains moreso than just going for bigger muscles. I know that as a by-product of strength comes muscularity, but it's not my main concern as much as tendon and ligament strength and CNS training is.


----------



## Geodetic_Effect

http://www.t-nation.com/workouts/531-how-to-build-pure-strength


----------



## Heavy Cat

No ... still gaining ... 540lbs right now.


----------



## LeoGibson

Geodetic_Effect said:


> 5/3/1/ by Jim Wendler and Carb Back-Loading by John Kiefer



I really like Wendler's style and I have looked into the 5/3/1 training split. I decided to go with Rippetoe's Starting Strength novice routine. Since it has been 10 years since I trained hard, I felt like the novice Linear Progression was a better fit for where I am presently. I did have to change it a bit as my work made the 1 1/2 hour training sessions hard to keep up with, so i'm doing a 4 day split instead of a 3 day split on a linear progression until I stall out on it. Once I do that I will go into the 5/3/1 plan. Right now, volume wise, I need to squat and bench more than one time per week. 

My training right now looks like this,

Monday

Bench heavy 3x5
Standing Press @80% of work weight 3x5
Dips 3x5

Tuesday

Squat heavy 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x5
Chins 3x5

Thursday

Standing Press heavy 3x5
Bench @80% of Monday's working weight 3x5
Lying Tricep extension 3x5

Friday or Saturday depending on schedule

Deadlift heavy for 3x3
Squat @80% of Tuesday's working weight for 3x5
Snatch grip high pulls from the hang 3x5

Each week I'll add 5 to 10 lbs. to the working weight until I can't get all reps. Once I stall after re-setting and ramping back up twice, then I'll move on to the 5/3/1 program.


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## Geodetic_Effect

As far as building a foundation, you can't go wrong with Starting Strength. My upcoming training phase is going to focus on quality of movement. However, I do not want to neglect strength and power. I'll only be able to do high intensity weight training once every four days. So I'm incorporating Christian Thibaudeau's "6 Weeks to Superhero" into Scott Sonnon's "Tactical Gymnastics". I'll be doing my own variation of carb cycling to sync, in what I think will be the most beneficial way, with the 4 day wave of intensity.


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## LeoGibson

Geodetic_Effect said:


> As far as building a foundation, you can't go wrong with Starting Strength. My upcoming training phase is going to focus on quality of movement. However, I do not want to neglect strength and power. I'll only be able to do high intensity weight training once every four days. So I'm incorporating Christian Thibaudeau's "6 Weeks to Superhero" into Scott Sonnon's "Tactical Gymnastics". I'll be doing my own variation of carb cycling to sync, in what I think will be the most beneficial way, with the 4 day wave of intensity.



That CT program looks intense. I think I'll keep that one in mind should I decide at some point to go after fat loss as a primary concern. Between those two programs it looks like you have hour work cut out for you, but the results will most likely be good.


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## bigmac

I've never understood the slavish devotion some lifters have to their regiments. I'm a strong proponent of mixing it up. When you walk into the gym you never know which apparatus will be available (i.e. if someone will be hogging the only squat rack for the entire lunch hour or if machines you were planning to use are down for repairs). My solution is to just have a general idea of what body parts you want to work on and then use what's available when its available (i.e. if the bench press benches are all in use but there's an empty small flat bench do dumbbell presses). I try to keep moving constantly -- if my shirt isn't totally soaked by the end of my workout I know I didn't work hard enough.

Also, I'd caution people who are not hardcore lifters regarding heavy weight low repetition workouts. Two issues are readily apparent: first, heavy low rep work is a recipe for injury; and second, its really hard to get a good workout doing only low rep (i.e. < 8) work -- if you don't push yourself to the limit you'll never break a sweat.

In my opinion most people would be better served by not measuring their success by the pounds of weight they lift but rather by improvements in their general level of fitness (i.e. how fast you can run a mile, how many push-ups you can do, can you still run the basketball court with the 20 somethings ...). For me weight training is one tool I use to improve/maintain my general fitness level. I'd also add that its important to get out of the gym on a regular basis. Every good exercise program needs an aerobic component -- its important to walk, run, bike, swim ... at least 30 or 40 minutes at least 3 or 4 times a week.


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## Geodetic_Effect

You need devotion if you want to make any real progress. You need know what your goals are and have a solid plan that you stick to. Just randomly going in and picking exercises based on general muscle groups and what's available will lead to mediocre results. Going to a gym that has more than one squat rack is helpful. 

It also depends what THEIR goals are. How can you have an opinion on how someone can be better served by having a different goal than what they want, and instead using your goal? Some people just want to be as strong as they can be and don't care about running a mile or on a basketball court. If strength is the goal, you need heavy low rep work with big compound movements. Form is important to learn, and then they are generally pretty safe, especially since a novice is going to be well below the threshold for what their body can truly handle because they just don't have the work capacity or mental toughness built up yet. Hardcore lifters are much more likely to be injured because they are able to push their bodies much farther. Apparently you have never done a true 3-5 rep max squat or deadlift. If you had, you would know that you will definitely break a sweat and jack your heart rate up. Those heavy, compound lifts also stimulate the strongest CNS response, which is what causes your body to adapt.

If the goal is just fat loss and general fitness, gaining more strength and muscle mass will result in quicker improvements. The model your present is a very inefficient way of reaching even the basic goal of keeping up with the 20 somethings.

Basically, everything you just said goes against the most basic, fundamental, time-tested tenets of training. Going in and making yourself sweat is better than nothing, but not the optimum way to results. Sweating isn't any kind of measure of pushing yourself to the limit. Based on your stated opinions, you really shouldn't be giving anyone advice on their training. 



bigmac said:


> I've never understood the slavish devotion some lifters have to their regiments. I'm a strong proponent of mixing it up. When you walk into the gym you never know which apparatus will be available (i.e. if someone will be hogging the only squat rack for the entire lunch hour or if machines you were planning to use are down for repairs). My solution is to just have a general idea of what body parts you want to work on and then use what's available when its available (i.e. if the bench press benches are all in use but there's an empty small flat bench do dumbbell presses). I try to keep moving constantly -- if my shirt isn't totally soaked by the end of my workout I know I didn't work hard enough.
> 
> Also, I'd caution people who are not hardcore lifters regarding heavy weight low repetition workouts. Two issues are readily apparent: first, heavy low rep work is a recipe for injury; and second, its really hard to get a good workout doing only low rep (i.e. < 8) work -- if you don't push yourself to the limit you'll never break a sweat.
> 
> In my opinion most people would be better served by not measuring their success by the pounds of weight they lift but rather by improvements in their general level of fitness (i.e. how fast you can run a mile, how many push-ups you can do, can you still run the basketball court with the 20 somethings ...).


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## bigmac

I actually do know what I'm doing. I never said anything about randomly going form exercise to exercise. I don't stick to any set routine but I certainly do have a plan. Its just a flexible plan. I see no need to slavishly follow some preordained workout schedule. A good workout is about intensity. If you're spending all your time standing around waiting for equipment your workout will not be intense. I maintain intensity by moving to the next available piece of equipment that fits my flexible plan. Changing things up is recognized technique (i.e. muscle confusion).

http://athletics.wikia.com/wiki/Muscle_Confusion_Principle

Low rep high weight training is nothing new. Mike Mentzer advocated this type of training back in the 70s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mentzer This type of training does seem to work for some people. Many people, myself included, never got on the bandwagon. Its been my experience that its almost always better to grind out one more repetition than to add another ten pounds. This is especially true for multi-joint compound exercises that do need to be the core of any workout -- I try to never go below 8 reps and go up to 20 for leg exercises. Here's an interesting article on this subject. 

http://www.t-nation.com/training/185-rep-squat-workout



Geodetic_Effect said:


> You need devotion if you want to make any real progress. You need know what your goals are and have a solid plan that you stick to. Just randomly going in and picking exercises based on general muscle groups and what's available will lead to mediocre results. Going to a gym that has more than one squat rack is helpful.
> 
> It also depends what THEIR goals are. How can you have an opinion on how someone can be better served by having a different goal than what they want, and instead using your goal? Some people just want to be as strong as they can be and don't care about running a mile or on a basketball court. If strength is the goal, you need heavy low rep work with big compound movements. Form is important to learn, and then they are generally pretty safe, especially since a novice is going to be well below the threshold for what their body can truly handle because they just don't have the work capacity or mental toughness built up yet. Hardcore lifters are much more likely to be injured because they are able to push their bodies much farther. Apparently you have never done a true 3-5 rep max squat or deadlift. If you had, you would know that you will definitely break a sweat and jack your heart rate up. Those heavy, compound lifts also stimulate the strongest CNS response, which is what causes your body to adapt.
> 
> If the goal is just fat loss and general fitness, gaining more strength and muscle mass will result in quicker improvements. The model your present is a very inefficient way of reaching even the basic goal of keeping up with the 20 somethings.
> 
> Basically, everything you just said goes against the most basic, fundamental, time-tested tenets of training. Going in and making yourself sweat is better than nothing, but not the optimum way to results. Sweating isn't any kind of measure of pushing yourself to the limit. Based on your stated opinions, you really shouldn't be giving anyone advice on their training.


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## bigmac

Here's a good article about the benefits of distance running from one of my favorite websites.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/01/10/5-myths-about-distance-running/


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## geekgamer01

I saw this thread and wanted to chime in. I'm working on loosing a bit of weight as well. I've always been a stocky guy and I have no plans to be skinny, but I'd like to lose a few pounds and get into better, healthier shape. Discussing loosing weight on Dims can dangerous sometimes lol but it's a great feeling seeing other guys in the same boat and seeing the support out there.


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## bigmac

geekgamer01 said:


> I saw this thread and wanted to chime in. I'm working on loosing a bit of weight as well. I've always been a stocky guy and I have no plans to be skinny, but I'd like to lose a few pounds and get into better, healthier shape. Discussing loosing weight on Dims can dangerous sometimes lol but it's a great feeling seeing other guys in the same boat and seeing the support out there.



As long as no one suggests someone else loose weight its all good.


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## LeoGibson

bigmac said:


> Here's a good article about the benefits of distance running from one of my favorite websites.
> 
> http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/01/10/5-myths-about-distance-running/



I'll see your distance running and raise you this from a highly respected strength and *conditioning* coach.

I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing match with you though really. What you describe as your approach is *exercising*, not to be confused with *training*. There is a difference, it's not just semantics. If exercise is what you're after, then by all means go for it and enjoy it! But breaking a sweat is not an indicator of good training. It is an indicator of exercise, but training means you have a specific agenda or goal in mind and a plan on how to get there. Trying to reach strength goals without having a plan to follow and just hitting it catch-as-catch-can is a recipe for failure. It is what keeps people looking and feeling the same year in and year out despite the fact that they are exercising hard.

The info on training that has come out over the last 10-15 years is groundbreaking. I was away from training for 10 years and it feels like I'm learning things from scratch all over again and I have been around iron since I was 13 years old. The info is there, but most people don't want to find it nor are they willing to give it a shot if they read something that may turn their world on its ear. If you're happy with your regimen,continue with it. Just don't confuse what myself and Geodetic Effect are talking about with what you describe. It's not exercise at all.


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## bigmac

LeoGibson said:


> I'll see your distance running and raise you this from a highly respected strength and *conditioning* coach.



I'd actually read this article previously. I agree with the author's advocacy of interval training. However, his antipathy toward middle distance running is in my opinion (and that of many others) misplaced. Its interesting that on the website that posted this article there's a bit of any ongoing feud between people who advocate low rep high weight training and those who advocate more reps and lower weight (the back and forth actually makes T-Nation a very good site)



LeoGibson said:


> I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing match with you though really. What you describe as your approach is *exercising*, not to be confused with *training*. There is a difference, it's not just semantics. If exercise is what you're after, then by all means go for it and enjoy it! But breaking a sweat is not an indicator of good training. It is an indicator of exercise, but training means you have a specific agenda or goal in mind and a plan on how to get there.* Trying to reach strength goals without having a plan to follow and just hitting it catch-as-catch-can is a recipe for failure*. It is what keeps people looking and feeling the same year in and year out despite the fact that they are exercising hard.



I do have very specific goals -- goals that are measured by athletic performance. The number of push-ups I can do is more important to me than how much I can bench press. My mid-distance running times are more important to me than how much I can squat. I gauge my progress by comparing my performance to objective standards like Army physical training standards.

http://www.mtu.edu/arotc/cadet-portal/docs/APFT.pdf




LeoGibson said:


> The info on training that has come out over the last 10-15 years is groundbreaking. I was away from training for 10 years and it feels like I'm learning things from scratch all over again and I have been around iron since I was 13 years old. The info is there, *but most people don't want to find it nor are they willing to give it a shot if they read something that may turn their world on its ear.* If you're happy with your regimen,continue with it. Just don't confuse what myself and Geodetic Effect are talking about with what you describe. It's not exercise at all.



I've been a keen student of physical fitness since the late 70s. I even took an upper division, faculty of rehabilitation medicine, exercise physiology course when I was an undergrad (in addition to 18 faculty of science physiology credits). I have indeed given many regimes a shot over the years. Low rep high weight training does not work for many people (it did seem to work for one of my early workout partners). Over the years many people have touted the latest greatest training techniques. What remains are tried and true techniques -- today's cross-fit training would look quite familiar to 1950s gym rats.


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## Tad

Worth remembering in all of this debate is that science has now shown--and even identified some of the genes/expressed-genes responsible for--different people responding different to exercise regimes (in general, and of specific sorts). Obviously hormones levels will play a role too, but a chunk of how much you respond in what ways is programmed into you. 

Which doesn't mean that anyone won't benefit from any exercise/training plan, but it means that saying there is one true path for everyone is probably like trying to describe the best way to teach math.


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## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> It's definitely difficult to gain as much strength as you would like while cutting fat. That's why bodybuilders have different phases. ...




The bulk and cut routines only make sense for professional bodybuilders -- and even then there's beginning to be a backlash. Here's a good article on the subject.

https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/bulking-diet-delusion

For ordinary people slowly loosing fat while increasing strength and endurance is the way to go. No fancy diets required -- no bizarre training regimes. 

Regarding diet I can't improve upon the advice of Michael Pollan -- "eat food, not too much, mostly plants."

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

Regarding exercise it doesn't really matter what you do so long as you do it intensely and frequently. Find something you enjoy doing and play hard.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Bigmac, your ridiculous recommendations really don't deserve anymore responses. Except, I wonder, where are your results? All this supposed knowledge and experience, years of "training", yet the best result you can produce is not getting fatter and maintaining an average level of physical activity. Results are king.


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## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Bigmac, your ridiculous recommendations really don't deserve anymore responses. Except, I wonder, where are your results? All this supposed knowledge and experience, years of "training", yet the best result you can produce is not getting fatter and maintaining an average level of physical activity. Results are king.



Yes results matter. Lets take a look at some results:

-- Bodybuilder and original high weight low rep proponent Mike Mentzer died at age 49. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mentzer


-- Runner and aerobic exercise guru Jim Fixx died at age 52. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx


-- Jack LaLane, who espoused a rational balance of resistance training, endurance training, and reasonable diet lived to be 96 and was active till the very end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne


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## fat hiker

bigmac said:


> Yes results matter. Lets take a look at some results:



Well played sir. Well played.


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## fat hiker

Tad said:


> Which doesn't mean that anyone won't benefit from any exercise/training plan, but it means that saying there is one true path for everyone is probably like trying to describe the best way to teach math.



Tad, you and I so often think alike.

And there are at least eight ways to teach math - I suspect the number of successful training plans greatly exceeds that!


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## bigmac

Tad said:


> Worth remembering in all of this debate is that science has now shown--and even identified some of the genes/expressed-genes responsible for--different people responding different to exercise regimes (in general, and of specific sorts). Obviously hormones levels will play a role too, but a chunk of how much you respond in what ways is programmed into you.
> 
> Which doesn't mean that anyone won't benefit from any exercise/training plan, but it means that saying there is one true path for everyone is probably like trying to describe the best way to teach math.



Yes, genetics does indeed play a large role. Some people can whip themselves into shape in a few weeks others need to work for years to get ahead of the curve. Some people's muscles are geared more toward endurance others more toward power.

Regarding exercise plans its true that the number of plans out there is proportional to the number of commentators (i.e. pretty much unlimited). However, there are plans that most would agree are ill advised and potentially dangerous.


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## Geodetic_Effect

Do I really have to go into how logically fallacious that is? 


Again, where are YOUR results?




bigmac said:


> Yes results matter. Lets take a look at some results:
> 
> -- Bodybuilder and original high weight low rep proponent Mike Mentzer died at age 49. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mentzer
> 
> 
> -- Runner and aerobic exercise guru Jim Fixx died at age 52. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx
> 
> 
> -- Jack LaLane, who espoused a rational balance of resistance training, endurance training, and reasonable diet lived to be 96 and was active till the very end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne


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## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> Do I really have to go into how logically fallacious that is?
> 
> 
> Again, where are YOUR results?



Results can be quantified in many ways. Here's one. I'll be 50 in two weeks. I'm stronger than when I was 18. I can run further (if not faster) than when I was 18. I'm just a little fatter than when I was 18. My blood pressure is still 120/70.


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## Geodetic_Effect

That's not quantified at all. That's conjecture. You see, when someone actually knows what they are doing and cares about results, they measure them. Without the measurements you really can't judge the effectiveness of what you are doing. 

Depending on what your goals are, before you start a program you can test your one rep max on the main lifts, test your rep max with specific weights on different lifts, measure weight, waist, arms, legs, chest and body fat percentages, resting heart rate, VO2 max, lactate threshold, time a 40 yard sprint, 100 yard sprint, mile run, 3 mile run, standing long jump, vertical jump, timed conditioning circuit, kettlebell snatch test, etc. Then at the end of 6-8 week program, measure them all, or just the ones your program is focused on, to actually quantify the effects of the program. Make an adjustment to your program, then test again at the end of another 6-8weeks. Now you have quantifiable data to show whether your changes helped or not. Although novices should probably stick with one program for at least 6 months before changing things up. Maybe just change up nutrition at the 8 week marks to see how that affects things.

Having never done that with yourself or anyone else, you have no idea what is actually effective and what isn't. You are just making shit up based on internet articles that fit with what you already believe. Ones that match up nicely with the excuses you make.



bigmac said:


> Results can be quantified in many ways. Here's one. I'll be 50 in two weeks. I'm stronger than when I was 18. I can run further (if not faster) than when I was 18. I'm just a little fatter than when I was 18. My blood pressure is still 120/70.


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## Geodetic_Effect

And you do realize Mike Mentzer was coke addict and pill popper?

And Fixx:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-robbins/what-should-we-learn-from_b_815943.html


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## Tad

OK, guys -- can you please cool it on the argument here? Maybe agree to disagree, and accept that OMG SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG! (at least to your way of seeing it).

I can see value in this thread for people looking for support or advice, or even to quietly brag about successes. But an ongoing argument where both sides are dug in only serves to drive away everyone who isn't involved in the argument.

To be clear, this is a plea, not an order. I'm not threatening moderator action or anything like that. If continuing the argument is important to you, then by all means keep waging it :blink:


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## bigmac

Tad said:


> OK, guys -- can you please cool it on the argument here? Maybe agree to disagree, and accept that OMG SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG! (at least to your way of seeing it).
> 
> I can see value in this thread for people looking for support or advice, or even to quietly brag about successes. But an ongoing argument where both sides are dug in only serves to drive away everyone who isn't involved in the argument.
> 
> To be clear, this is a plea, not an order. I'm not threatening moderator action or anything like that. If continuing the argument is important to you, then by all means keep waging it :blink:




I'm not wedded to any one type of training. Indeed I believe the best exercise advice is to find activities you enjoy and as Nike says "just do it." There are indeed many paths to physical fitness (and indeed many definitions of physical fitness). However, there are certain exercise regimes and diets that are dangerous.

The ironic thing is that I actually agree with Geo regarding many issues. The problem is that he takes things to dangerous extremes.

I agree with Geo that diets don't work and that dietary fat is not the enemy. However, unless you're a world class athlete there's no rational reason to consume more that four, or maybe five, thousand calories a day.

I agree with Geo that high intensity weight training should be a part of any fitness plan. However, heavy weight low rep training, while great for competitive powerlifters, is a fast track to serious injury for ordinary people.

I agree with Geo regarding commitment to plans and goals -- no one ever accomplished anything lying on the sofa all day. However, I favor flexible plans and practical goals. I go to the gym and get up before dawn to run not as ends in themselves but to facilitate my ability to enjoy life. I enjoy being able to do things with my wife and kids.


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## bigmac

Geodetic_Effect said:


> That's not quantified at all. That's conjecture. You see, *when someone actually knows what they are doing and cares about results, they measure them.* Without the measurements you really can't judge the effectiveness of what you are doing.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Having never done that with yourself or anyone else, you have no idea what is actually effective and what isn't.* You are just making shit up based on internet articles that fit with what you already believe. Ones that match up nicely with the excuses you make.



Certain types of people love data. They confuse the collection of reams of data with scientific inquiry and statistics with understanding. Someone who "actually knows what they are doing" is someone who understands which measurements provide useful information and which are of marginal, if any, relevance.

I actually have on many occasions been measured and done the measuring. Several of my physiology classes required extensive lab work. In exercise physiology us students served as each others guinea pigs. I also served as a human test subject in metabolic experiments relating to non-shivering thermogenisis (for experiments the Richardson Ground Squirrels refused to participate in). As a soldier I was measured every which way. I know what the fuck I'm doing -- I understand the scientific method -- I have a decent grasp of human physiology -- I also understand the limits of our present knowledge. I'm not making anything up.

For ordinary people, who are not competitive athletes seeking to extra tenth of a second or extra inch or two, the quantitative measurements you suggest are a waste of time. If you're in tune with your body you know when you've had a good workout, you know if you're stronger than you were six months ago, you notice when the jeans that used to be tight start fitting better, and you notice when the person in the mirror looks better.


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## KingBuu

I really haven't been trying to lose weight, but over the past 20 years I've lost over 170 pounds; tipping the scales at 500. I lost 70 by 2000, and 100 since then. Mostly a culmination of stress, being poor, or moving a lot over the course of the years. Then of course is my family belittling me because I eat too much and making me feel bad because I eat at all. Food really isn't a priority for me but I don't really crave to be thin. I don't care what I weigh really if I'm fat or thin.


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## Tad

Sorry the weight loss has been do to so many negative things, but I'd imagine that on the upside it must be making daily life easier for you?

Anyway, I hope life will be turning around soon and giving you happier circumstances. Sounds like it has been one heck of a rough stretch (and also: that you need to find a way to get some distance from your family--nobody deserves that sort of treatment!)


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## KingBuu

Well certainly, I breathe a lot better and my stamina and endurance got better without me noticing. Like I can stand for more than 5 minutes, so almost 30 minutes more if I have to; like waiting in line in an office.

Actually, I live with some family so that's a cross I have to bear. Hopefully in 4 years I can move in with my brother in New York, but I can't at the moment since his place is so small and there's no room for me right now.


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## michiganbhm

Haven't posted in awhile, but I went from 310 to 196


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## fat hiker

michiganbhm said:


> Haven't posted in awhile, but I went from 310 to 196



Would hardly believe you'd been a BHM. Was this deliberate, or the result of illness, or....?? Curious minds want to know!


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## michiganbhm

fat hiker said:


> Would hardly believe you'd been a BHM. Was this deliberate, or the result of illness, or....?? Curious minds want to know!



It was deliberate! Started losing weight quickly from just counting calories and walking. Then it kinda snowballed into running and now I can go 4-5 miles without stopping to walk. Hard to believe I could only waddle at like 3 mph for 30 minutes at a time last year lol.


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## tankyguy

I bought a bike at a yard sale on a lark today and I'm planning a short ride this evening after it cools off a little. I'm easily way over the manufacturer's stated weight limit so I predict one of us is coming back wrecked.


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## warwagon86

Hello everyone! Been a busy 9 months for me but have now moved to Sydney, Australia and been working out, running and sticking to a keto diet! Have dropped 90lbs now! 

If you want to diet go ahead it's your body. I felt I needed to make some changes in my life!


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## Geodetic_Effect

Can't rep you, or I would.



warwagon86 said:


> Hello everyone! Been a busy 9 months for me but have now moved to Sydney, Australia and been working out, running and sticking to a keto diet! Have dropped 90lbs now!
> 
> If you want to diet go ahead it's your body. I felt I needed to make some changes in my life!


----------



## HugeBellyUK

It's been over a year now since I discovered Ketogenic diet (high fat, moderate protein, low carb). I had very good results to start with, and lost around 45lbs when I was carefully tracking the nutrition. After a few months, I suppose the novelty of the diet wore off, the weight loss slowed and more carbs started to creep into daily eating.

What I've noticed is that I have to REALLY keep the carbs as low as possible otherwise I gain. Simple as that. Earlier this year, again I began to 'drift' from keto diet, overdid the carbs and somehow managed to pile on a lot of the weight very quickly and break 400lb which is a good 35lb heavier than I was last year. I am amazed how quickly the weight comes back. To me, there seems to be a multiplier effect with carbs and fat, energy wise.

Right now, I'm now hovering around 380lb and have been experimenting with very low carb again. It's almost as though there is a weight loss switch inside us, and cutting carbs, while keeping up the food intake, turns it on for a bit regardless of activity level. However, keeping to that same low carb diet for a while I seem to plateau after a few weeks. 

Someone in this thread commented that the problem is fat people are lazy, and i have to agree. Well, I know for me, this is true. If I was more active, the carbs which I do end up eating wouldn't be so problematic. I do find lifestyle change is harder than diet. I found when I had lost 40lbs, I was naturally beginning to become more active, I strangely had more energy, and that is the time to slowly introduce more physical activity, something enjoyable like short walk, or cycling. We should all be moving more, easier said than done!

I think if anyone is interested in losing weight, first read up, learn the science behind ketogenic diet. There is no point being a gym bunny without first learning about nutrition and fixing the diet. For a good start, I recommend "Why We Get Fat" book by Gary Taubes. Read up, learn, act, share & good luck ;-)


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## bigmac

The foregoing post illustrates one of the main reasons fad diets (including low-carb) don't work. People just cannot stay on them.

Also, while a person doesn't need to be a "gym bunny" to loose weight, an active lifestyle is essential for long-term weight loss.

And, people need to realize that so called diet experts really don't have a clue. Dietary science is a field pretty much defined by what is not known and/or understood.


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## Lil BigginZ

bigmac said:


> The foregoing post illustrates one of the main reasons fad diets (including low-carb) don't work. People just cannot stay on them.
> 
> Also, while a person doesn't need to be a "gym bunny" to loose weight, an active lifestyle is essential for long-term weight loss.
> 
> And, people need to realize that so called diet experts really don't have a clue. Dietary science is a field pretty much defined by what is not known and/or understood.



You have no clue what you're talking about. Low carb has been around for a long time, so I'd say it's more than just a fad. People can stay on them as I've personally seen it. I like to switch up my diets because otherwise I'd get bored. I'd go to low carb, calorie counting, paleo, and then back to low carb, etc etc. I find it's much easier to diet that way by switching up. That way you don't get tired of eating the same type of food everyday. 

Dieting makes you lose weight, exercise makes you look good naked. Weight loss is simple, it's basically calories in, calories out. 

I'm not even going to touch about you claiming dietary science is unknown. That's just asinine. The bottom line is if you don't put work into losing weight than no diet will work. Dieting works if you work it. It's as simple as that.


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## HugeBellyUK

Well as much as you can bash diets, I've learned going low carb REALLY reduces that constant desire to eat. In eating more fat & protein, you can reduce the hunger which makes us over-eat. The food is more nutritious, blood sugar is kept under control and of course over time you eat less and lose weight. I feel at last in control of my weight, providing I keep the carbs right down.

I always wondered how some people can not be fussed about eating and have no appetite whatsoever while others like me never feel full and are pretty much always hungry, thinking about the next meal and ready to eat. It's all about the body craving the next sugar spike, essentially we're addicts.

For those who can't walk far or get on a bike, this simple bearable change in diet will provide the weight loss to the point that they hopefully can. The weight loss, will enable them to do more physically to the point of making exercise/lifestyle change more likely.

Of course, changing both lifestyle and diet is optimal. Exercise and keeping active helps control blood sugar along with low carb. i just feel for me, fixing the diet first is the way to go. I've always been a healthy eater, but wow, going low carb and pushing up the protein+fat intake works for me.... as long as I keep to very low carb.


----------



## Lil BigginZ

HugeBellyUK said:


> Well as much as you can bash diets, I've learned going low carb REALLY reduces that constant desire to eat. In eating more fat & protein, you can reduce the hunger which makes us over-eat. The food is more nutritious, blood sugar is kept under control and of course over time you eat less and lose weight. I feel at last in control of my weight, providing I keep the carbs right down.
> 
> I always wondered how some people can not be fussed about eating and have no appetite whatsoever while others like me never feel full and are pretty much always hungry, thinking about the next meal and ready to eat. It's all about the body craving the next sugar spike, essentially we're addicts.
> 
> For those who can't walk far or get on a bike, this simple bearable change in diet will provide the weight loss to the point that they hopefully can. The weight loss, will enable them to do more physically to the point of making exercise/lifestyle change more likely.
> 
> Of course, changing both lifestyle and diet is optimal. Exercise and keeping active helps control blood sugar along with low carb. i just feel for me, fixing the diet first is the way to go. I've always been a healthy eater, but wow, going low carb and pushing up the protein+fat intake works for me.... as long as I keep to very low carb.



Low carb is the only diet that I feel full on. Every other diet I'm constantly hungry 24/7. My only problem with eating low card is that it's an expensive diet. It's hard to eat cheaply on low carb since you're basically buying nothing but meat, produce, and dairy. Which all 3 can be expensive at times.


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## bigmac

Lil BigginZ said:


> You have no clue what you're talking about. Low carb has been around for a long time, so I'd say it's more than just a fad. People can stay on them as I've personally seen it. I like to switch up my diets because otherwise I'd get bored. I'd go to low carb, calorie counting, paleo, and then back to low carb, etc etc. I find it's much easier to diet that way by switching up. That way you don't get tired of eating the same type of food everyday.
> 
> Dieting makes you lose weight, exercise makes you good naked. Weight loss is simple, it's basically calories in, calories out.
> 
> I'm not even going to touch about you claiming dietary science is unknown. That's just asinine. The bottom line is if you don't put work into losing weight than no diet will work. Dieting works if you work it. It's as simple as that.



Given that dieting has a 95% failure rate its hard to take any assertion that dieting "works" seriously.

The laws of thermodynamics cannot be broken so at a very basic level weight loss is about calories in and calories out. People in concentration camps or suffering famine will indeed loose weight. In more usual circumstances the fact that the calories out side of the equation is not constant is what makes diets so ineffectual. Diets create a negative feedback loop. The more you diet the lower your metabolism the more you need to diet ...

Exercise -- particularly strength training (i.e. weights) -- is the key to increasing metabolism.


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## Fuzzy

I tried Atkins low carb, but I enjoyed the South Beach(tm) low carb more. If you think in terms of the WeightWatchers point system, or by the High vs. Low glycemic scale it helps you choose the best combination to go with. 

But it can't be just a diet. It must be a lifestyle change. One of those rest-of-your-life kinds of change. 

I haven't been able to change. I'm too easily swayed by the craving and hunger.


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## loopytheone

I know this is off tangent, but I think it is really interesting that this thread is allowed to exist. I thought the forum had a 'no diet talk' policy? Certainly I don't think a thread like this in the BBW forum about losing weight would go down so well...

Not that it is at all a problem to have threads like this but shouldn't the acceptance of weight loss threads on this forum be the same for men and women? Just a thought.


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## Goreki

I think that it's important that it does exist. I like the idea of a place to discuss weight loss thoroughly with people who are in a similar situation. There's no judgement about why you are they way you are to begin with, and people give a shit about the mental and physical effects of the advice they give.

I like size acceptance. I don't like it when it becomes mandated. Changing ones appearance is a choice, and I think it's shitty to say (and I'm not implying that you've said this, Loopy) accept your size no matter what.

I also think size acceptance includes all sizes and bodies - when it becomes a reaction against the current societal ideal instead of a true acceptance, then it's wrong.


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## Bigsweetguy619

I've actually lost a lot of weight and did so for health reasons, I tipped at 592 and had really bad sleep apnea. I got down to where I am now, 400+, and have been lingering at my current weight for about a year and a half. I feel great and am active and can do more which makes me happier, but to be honest I've found myself thinking of trying to lose more because the sad fact is I'm single, have never had a girlfriend, and I know it's because women like those on here are rare. So to be more widely accepted I may cut down on my wideness, but I'm still not 100% committed yet, just have lingering thoughts about it when I feel lonely is all, but food is always there to keep me company


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## loopytheone

Goreki said:


> I think that it's important that it does exist. I like the idea of a place to discuss weight loss thoroughly with people who are in a similar situation. There's no judgement about why you are they way you are to begin with, and people give a shit about the mental and physical effects of the advice they give.
> 
> I like size acceptance. I don't like it when it becomes mandated. Changing ones appearance is a choice, and I think it's shitty to say (and I'm not implying that you've said this, Loopy) accept your size no matter what.
> 
> I also think size acceptance includes all sizes and bodies - when it becomes a reaction against the current societal ideal instead of a true acceptance, then it's wrong.



I absolutely agree with this. I don't know if I made it clear enough in my original post, but my issue isn't with threads like this existing at all, just that it seems a bit off for there to be one rule for the BHM and another for the BBW here when it comes to talking about these things. But maybe I am just interpreting the rules of the site wrong?


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## HugeBellyUK

This site like the many others is mainly BBW/FA and size positive. It would simply not be good business to start discussing diets and weight loss in the BBW forum section so that is probably why we're getting away with the discussion here on the BHM board.

As much as I am into size acceptance, staying positive and being happy at all sizes, there comes a point where our health is affected from our obesity and it is hard to actually remain so positive and happy. 

Both SSBBW & SSBHM who are suffering from fat related health issues need support, and I feel this is one of the few places on the net where we should be able to discuss the matter. Most of us understand the complications of our size, our addiction to food, and problems we face in trying to become more mobile, fitter and most importantly healthier. If you succeeded in losing 50lbs or more for whatever reason, congratulations, please share how you did it - as those little tips might well help someone else. That is what this thread is all about.


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## Tad

< mod hat on >

I do keep a very close eye on this thread, as a mod. I have in the past--and likely will have to in the future--had to ask someone to tone it down, or simply removed posts that I thought were a toe over the line.

Basically:
- do talk about what you are doing with your life
- do talk about what has worked and hasn't worked for you
- do talk about science and research around these issues.
- basically the above three come out to "do talk about facts as you've experienced them or as other people have measured them"
- _don't_ tell anyone else to lose weight
- _don't_ tell anyone else how they should lose weight
- _don't_ prostheletyze for a particular diet or approach
- above all else, _don't_ tell anyone else that their experience is invalid, even in the form of "it would have been OK if only you had done 'X'" 
- Actually, in general in this thread be very wary of usage of the term "You." Even if you mean it in the generic sense, it may be read in the specific sense.

Given the nature of these forums, I'll err on the side of removing posts, (in most threads I tend to go the other way. This thread is so marginal to be on here, and the subject can easily get so emotional, that I have a special policy for this thread)


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## Lil BigginZ

Why was my post deleted? That's kind of shitty as it didn't attack anybody or tell anybody how to diet. He's making a claim that 95% of diets fail and I clearly told him that if you don't work the diet then you will fail. Why is that so bad? And that 95% of diets failing is an old outdated study from 1959. It's not the diet that is failing, it's the person. 

The whole point of this thread is for people trying to lose weight and he's in here trying to discourage others. At least remove that 95% post from him. Nobody in this thread doesn't want to feel discouraged in losing weight or else they wouldn't be in this thread in the first place.


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## bigmac

Lil BigginZ said:


> ... It's not the diet that is failing, it's the person.
> 
> ...



This is supposed to be encouraging?

Sorry, but saying that fat people could all easily be thin if only they were better people (i.e. had more willpower or more commitment) is the opposite of encouragement.


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## bigmac

As far as people's stories go -- here's mine. I was a fat kid. I was only kid in my 1st grade class to weigh over 100 pounds. In 7th grade I weighed 235 pounds. I was always the last kid picked for teams in gym class. When I was 15 I started to workout. By 12th grade I actually made the varsity basketball team.

As an adult I've struggled to maintain a reasonable weight -- with varying degrees of success. For short periods of time -- when I've been able to devote lots of time to exercise -- I've managed to be almost thin. But most of the time I've had to settle for maintaining a moderately fat physique (50-60 pounds overweight). I'm pretty happy when -- as now -- I can buy my jeans at Target.


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## LeoGibson

bigmac said:


> This is supposed to be encouraging?
> 
> Sorry, but saying that fat people could all easily be thin if only they were better people (i.e. had more willpower or more commitment) is the opposite of encouragement.



I'm sure being argumentative helps your chosen profession, but in places such as these it puts you in shall we say, an unfavorable light to be diplomatic about it. I say that because any rational thinking human being with average reading comprehension skills would not take that away from Bigginz' post. That's not what he was saying at all. 

Let me give you a simple analogy. Maybe that will help you comprehend the nuance of what he was saying counselor. A diet is a tool just as a hammer is a tool. A hammer will drive a nail into a 2x4 100% of the time provided you line everything up and do it properly and use the hammer exactly as intended. If you don't pay attention and hit it improperly or have the nail at a disadvantageous angle it will not drive in the nail. That doesn't mean the hammer didn't work or that you're a bad person because you didn't use it correctly. It means don't blame the tool for the workman's error. 

Now occasionally you will run into a piece of wood that has some underlying problems, like an unseen knot or what have you that can make driving the nail more difficult or even impossible. However, those, like most humans are the exception and not the rule. 

In case you were wondering, the hammer represents the diet.


----------



## Tad

Lil BigginZ said:


> Why was my post deleted? That's kind of shitty as it didn't attack anybody or tell anybody how to diet. He's making a claim that 95% of diets fail and I clearly told him that if you don't work the diet then you will fail. Why is that so bad? And that 95% of diets failing is an old outdated study from 1959. It's not the diet that is failing, it's the person.
> 
> The whole point of this thread is for people trying to lose weight and he's in here trying to discourage others. At least remove that 95% post from him. Nobody in this thread doesn't want to feel discouraged in losing weight or else they wouldn't be in this thread in the first place.



I apologize for no PM, I was very tight on time (the message I posted was already making me run late). That specific post was heavy on "you", which in the context could very well be read to mean Bigmac. General point is probably OK, in more neutral language.

I do probably need to do a more thorough sweep through this thread once I have twenty minutes on a proper computer (mostly I'm doing things on my phone these days which is less than optimum). Might be a fair amount more pruning.

But do recall that the general call at this site is that it is fat positive, and there are literally thousands of sites focussed on weight loss versus a few about fat acceptance and support. I think that support should include recognizing that some fat people do want and/or need to lose weight--but I think the sceptic's voice has a place in that discussion too.


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## ScreamingChicken

The Mrs. and I both got reamed by our doctors here in the last month. HBP for me and diabetes for her. Plus we are both dealing with nagging pain in our joints. At 36 and 40, we are at points where we need to address these things once and for all and stop ignoring them.

Since neither of us wants to fool with prescriptions, it's going to be changes in what we eat and appreciable movement on our part. It will probably be reduced carbs , no soda, less salt and caffeine (especially for me). As for exercise, I want to try walking again. As it is, I sit at a desk nine hours a day plus another three in the car. I have very little if any physical activity.

The plan is to start cleaning up things the day after Thanksgiving. We shall see...


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## Cookie

Lil BigginZ said:


> Why was my post deleted? That's kind of shitty as it didn't attack anybody or tell anybody how to diet. He's making a claim that 95% of diets fail and I clearly told him that if you don't work the diet then you will fail. Why is that so bad? And that 95% of diets failing is an old outdated study from 1959. It's not the diet that is failing, it's the person.



I know this can be a very sensitive topic for some and the last thing I am out to do here is mean harm or upset anyone, but, I completely agree that it's not the diet that's failing, but the person. 

Some diets like the Atkins do speed up weight loss. I once did it and even though I was only a tiny bit overweight I still lost a stone in 14 days as promised. It's extremely exhausting and requires a LOT of willpower, but if you incorporate it into your lifestyle, still doing what you normally do each day you do lose weight. I was pretty determined and that got me through it. 

Really though, the only things you need to do to lose weight at a steady rate are eat less calories and exercise more. It sounds simple but it can be pretty tough, but you're guaranteed to drop the pounds if you stick at it. 

I wish everyone here who's looking to lose weight the best of luck; fat can be attractive but I'd never forgive myself if someone came to harm because I liked their size and encouraged weight gain.


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## loopytheone

Lil BigginZ, as much as what you were saying was valid I found your tone in the post that got deleted insulting as well. Not saying that is what you intended but you have to bear it mind that, as others have said, this is a loaded topic for some people.

Personally, I have struggled with eating disorders in the past so being told that 'I am a failure of a person' for not being able to 'stick to' a diet that was making me seriously ill is obviously a very triggering and upsetting thing to hear. You don't know how might be reading this thread with similar experiences so calling anybody who doesn't stick to a diet a failure is... well, it is cruel and uncalled for, in my opinion. There is also an implication there that if you are fat because you have failed at dieting then you are a 'failure' and I think that everybody can agree that is not an appropriate or helpful thing to say on a forum like this. 

I'm not trying to attack you, just explaining why some people would object and be upset by your post. And for what it is worth, if being fat and strong and healthy makes me a failure in your eyes, so be it. I would rather be a happy failure than a sick, skinny mess.


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## Lil BigginZ

Tad said:


> I apologize for no PM, I was very tight on time (the message I posted was already making me run late). That specific post was heavy on "you", which in the context could very well be read to mean Bigmac. General point is probably OK, in more neutral language.
> 
> I do probably need to do a more thorough sweep through this thread once I have twenty minutes on a proper computer (mostly I'm doing things on my phone these days which is less than optimum). Might be a fair amount more pruning.
> 
> But do recall that the general call at this site is that it is fat positive, and there are literally thousands of sites focussed on weight loss versus a few about fat acceptance and support. I think that support should include recognizing that some fat people do want and/or need to lose weight--but I think the sceptic's voice has a place in that discussion too.



The "you" I using was in the general term, no where was I attacking anybody by calling them failures. I thought it was quite clear what my intentions in my post was saying. I also know this is a fat positive site, but this is also a weight loss thread where we can talk about it and get support. I don't feel bashing a diet that works for a lot of people is supporting anybody, especially when he came in here stating 95% of diets fail. That's not doing anything to encourage anybody here to lose weight. I just didn't feel blaming the diet for the failure rate was support, because it's not the diet that fails. They work if YOU work it. 



LeoGibson said:


> I'm sure being argumentative helps your chosen profession, but in places such as these it puts you in shall we say, an unfavorable light to be diplomatic about it. I say that because any rational thinking human being with average reading comprehension skills would not take that away from Bigginz' post. That's not what he was saying at all.
> 
> Let me give you a simple analogy. Maybe that will help you comprehend the nuance of what he was saying counselor. A diet is a tool just as a hammer is a tool. A hammer will drive a nail into a 2x4 100% of the time provided you line everything up and do it properly and use the hammer exactly as intended. If you don't pay attention and hit it improperly or have the nail at a disadvantageous angle it will not drive in the nail. That doesn't mean the hammer didn't work or that you're a bad person because you didn't use it correctly. It means don't blame the tool for the workman's error.
> 
> Now occasionally you will run into a piece of wood that has some underlying problems, like an unseen knot or what have you that can make driving the nail more difficult or even impossible. However, those, like most humans are the exception and not the rule.
> 
> In case you were wondering, the hammer represents the diet.



Nailed it! 



loopytheone said:


> Lil BigginZ, as much as what you were saying was valid I found your tone in the post that got deleted insulting as well. Not saying that is what you intended but you have to bear it mind that, as others have said, this is a loaded topic for some people.
> 
> Personally, I have struggled with eating disorders in the past so being told that 'I am a failure of a person' for not being able to 'stick to' a diet that was making me seriously ill is obviously a very triggering and upsetting thing to hear. You don't know how might be reading this thread with similar experiences so calling anybody who doesn't stick to a diet a failure is... well, it is cruel and uncalled for, in my opinion. There is also an implication there that if you are fat because you have failed at dieting then you are a 'failure' and I think that everybody can agree that is not an appropriate or helpful thing to say on a forum like this.
> 
> I'm not trying to attack you, just explaining why some people would object and be upset by your post. And for what it is worth, if being fat and strong and healthy makes me a failure in your eyes, so be it. I would rather be a happy failure than a sick, skinny mess.



LOL nobody is calling you "a failure at life". Where did you get that from? From my post? All I said was it's not the diet that makes the failure rate so high, it's the person, and I don't agree with it being 95% as I've known plenty of people who have lost weight and kept it off. That's truth. If the truth is "triggering" something then I don't know what to say here. Read LeoGisbon's post from above. He nailed what I was trying to say. All I'm saying is dieting is hard work, and people will fail at them. It happens, just don't blame the diet for that like Bigmac was doing with the low carb. Different diets will work differently for each person. That doesn't mean you have to give up or that "you're a failure", just don't blame the diet, because that's not what was the reason it failed.


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## biglynch

Yikes ok if your still arguing world, then read Leo's post again. It might be the best post I've seen on dims since i joined.

I'll say this. A fact remains a fact whether you like it or not. 

I'm fairly sure of this in that LilB was not intending to be controversial or offend. I'd also say that he'll have made that comment based on sound reasoning and personal experience. To tell him that he's wrong or that it's not the case actually discredited his personal experience. I don't think anyone has the right to do that.

I can't say if he's right, but I won't say he's wrong because it might upset me or others.

Take care peeps.


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## Lil BigginZ

Let's try and get this thread back on track. 

I've gained some weight back with a current medical issue I'm dealing with, plus crippling depression on top of it made for a good 90 pound gain over the last 7 months. My blood pressure is through the roof and also my doctor tested my blood sugar, which was really bad for not eating anything for the day, so he thinks my diabetes might be back. Joy. 

So I have to change up my diet and go back to low carb, which isn't bad since I actually enjoy low carb, I just don't like how expensive of a diet it is. So I'm currently trying to put together a meal plan, exercise plan, and going to log everything on myfitnesspal.


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## Cookie

Lil BigginZ said:


> Let's try and get this thread back on track.
> 
> I've gained some weight back with a current medical issue I'm dealing with, plus crippling depression on top of it made for a good 90 pound gain over the last 7 months. My blood pressure is through the roof and also my doctor tested my blood sugar, which was really bad for not eating anything for the day, so he thinks my diabetes might be back. Joy.
> 
> So I have to change up my diet and go back to low carb, which isn't bad since I actually enjoy low carb, I just don't like how expensive of a diet it is. So I'm currently trying to put together a meal plan, exercise plan, and going to log everything on myfitnesspal.



I wish you the best of luck! And anyone else here trying to lose weight! Health must always come before anything else when you're big, even if it's damn sexy.


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## Lil BigginZ

Cookie said:


> I wish you the best of luck! And anyone else here trying to lose weight! Health must always come before anything else when you're big, even if it's damn sexy.



I've already lost a lot of weight so I"m not new to weight loss. At my highest I was over 800 pounds, but I ended up getting down to 440 before I fell into depression. Now it's time ot get back on the wagon and continue with the weight loss goal. 

Thanks.


----------



## Cookie

Lil BigginZ said:


> I've already lost a lot of weight so I"m not new to weight loss. At my highest I was over 800 pounds, but I ended up getting down to 440 before I fell into depression. Now it's time ot get back on the wagon and continue with the weight loss goal.
> 
> Thanks.



You've lost 400 lbs ish in the past? That's incredible, sounds like you'll definitely reach your goal in time. And sorry to hear about your depression, I really hope it clears.


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## bigmac

I wish everyone who is trying to loose weight (or just stay healthy) the best. However, I like to consider myself a realist and I've always been of the opinion that facts, no matter how inconvenient, must be considered. And, perhaps more importantly, facts must be considered in context.

Its possible to be technically correct, but in a more practical sense, be dreadfully wrong at the same time. There is no doubt that if a person restricts his or her calorie intake enough weight loss will result. That this is true cannot be disputed. It follows that in a narrow technical sense diets work.

However, the experience of millions of people over many many years has shown that (at least in modern North America) its almost impossible for the vast majority of people to maintain long-term (5 years +) weight loss by dieting. There are multiple reasons why this is so. Prior posts have identified some and there are many more (things as disparate as lake of sleep and the walkability of neighborhoods play a part). The bottom line is that a person who seeks to loose weight would be well advised to not rely upon simple calorie restriction.


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## bigmac

I've found that the simple act of walking is one of the best ways to stay healthy. Unfortunately for many people its not so easy to go for an enjoyable walk. I recently moved to the Northern California Coast from Fresno. Fresno was a very unpleasant place to live -- ungodly hot, terrible air quality, and just all-round depressing. Such conditions make staying inside in your air-conditioned living room watching TV seem like the most sensible thing to do. By comparison the Redwood Coast has an environment that draws people outside. I just got back from a two hour walk along beautiful coastal trails. Being outside for two hours in Fresno would have been torture. Its only been three months but I feel healthier. I don't know if I've lost any weight (I don't own a scale) but my pants are looser and I'm going to have to punch a new hole in my belt.


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## Jah

I've maintained a 10-15% weightloss for about a year now. Although I'd also done it for a few years before that. I spend very little time at my highest weight of 300lbs. Every time I end up there I usually start losing weight again straight away. I've had the most success with a mixture of calorie counting and exercise. At the moment I'm really trying to find an exercise that I enjoy so I can create an exercise habit rather than exercising on and off like I usually do. Any low intensity exercise ideas are welcome.


----------



## Fuzzy

Goreki said:


> I think that it's important that it does exist. I like the idea of a place to discuss weight loss thoroughly with people who are in a similar situation. There's no judgement about why you are they way you are to begin with, and people give a shit about the mental and physical effects of the advice they give.
> 
> I like size acceptance. I don't like it when it becomes mandated. Changing ones appearance is a choice, and I think it's shitty to say (and I'm not implying that you've said this, Loopy) accept your size no matter what.
> 
> I also think size acceptance includes all sizes and bodies - when it becomes a reaction against the current societal ideal instead of a true acceptance, then it's wrong.



I really want to rep this post, but I'm all out.


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## Jah

It would be good if there was a section of the board for weight loss like there is for weight gain. There would be rules of course so things don't go against size acceptance. The good thing about there being a weight loss section would be that it could be discussed in a way that is good to size acceptance. That is one thing most weightloss forums lack. I've been to weightloss forums before and the people there always have the opinion of 'fat = ugly' or a person must get to a lowest possible BMI. So yes, I do think there really is a need for a weightloss section on a site like this instead of ignoring that some people feel the need to lose a bit of weight for health or mobility reasons.


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## bigmac

bigmac said:


> I've found that the simple act of walking is one of the best ways to stay healthy. Unfortunately for many people its not so easy to go for an enjoyable walk. I recently moved to the Northern California Coast from Fresno. Fresno was a very unpleasant place to live -- ungodly hot, terrible air quality, and just all-round depressing. Such conditions make staying inside in your air-conditioned living room watching TV seem like the most sensible thing to do. By comparison the Redwood Coast has an environment that draws people outside. I just got back from a two hour walk along beautiful coastal trails. Being outside for two hours in Fresno would have been torture. Its only been three months but I feel healthier. I don't know if I've lost any weight (I don't own a scale) but my pants are looser and I'm going to have to punch a new hole in my belt.



I'm in Southern California for turkey day. Used my mother-in-law's scale this morning and yes I have lost about 10 pounds since leaving Fresno (297 pounds before turkey).


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## bbanditx79

I am. During my couple of years hiatus from here I did loose a good bit and went from around 375 to 220s (at my "smallest"). However, or the last 2 years I've put back on ~70lbs to where I'm now in the 290s. The good part is I'm a big guy who has been a consistent work out person so I "only" have to get the eating part in check ... which obviously is easier said than done. If I can consistently get down and stay to the 200-220 range that would be somewhat ideal. So I'll be one of those people focusing on loosing this 2015 and beyond.


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## lemmy for prez

I'm planning on getting back into shape for health reasons. I'm always gonna be a rough lookin' son of gun but I'd like to wear some of my old shirts!


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## tankyguy

Got a used treadmill for cheap and I've been doing 15 minutes in the mornings and evenings. It's only been a week and I don't feel much of an improvement yet.


----------



## KingBuu

I'm mainly losing weight because I'm poor, I lost 170 pounds off of 500 over the last 14 years probably lost 20 more because I got really sick over Christmas.


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## Smite

Soo i'm down to 199 from the 445 I was at. It's been a long road, not neccesarily a hard one, but I just wanted to give props to anyone whose trying to actively do it. I was a hardcore BHM supporter years ago, had a website and everything but I just grew tired, but I realized it was a important resource, but if any of you guys need a change I say absolutely go for it. I'm here to help and give instructions if anyone needs help.


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## deanbpm

Lost 70 pounds since last year. Feel loads better for it.


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## Yakatori

tankyguy said:


> "_Got a used treadmill for cheap and I've been doing 15 minutes in the mornings and evenings. It's only been a week and I don't feel much of an improvement yet._"


Gives you some time recover in between, boosts metabolism all day through. But, just be careful not to do the second round too, too late before the time you plan to get to sleep. 

And also, when the weather's good, try to mix in some regular outdoor walking as well. Just to make sure to continue engaging all of your body's stabilization that gets a bit of a break on some machines.

Still, if the weather's bad, at least you have some ready alternative. Which is so important to consistently keep at it, on a year-long basis.


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## likeitmatters

I personally walk everyday which is the best I can do as I have a plethora of ailments due two heart attacks and other ailments. I would never ever over train myself even when I was 20 something...not my style. I do not need to be the center of attention in life then or now.

I commend the people who over train and I wonder how much help they had from steriods to give them the big muscles? i prefer to look at powerlifters bodies as they are muscles and fat at the same time.


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