# Am I wrong for thinking this?



## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 23, 2011)

I posted this on another - non fat-related - forum when someone brought up the topic of why some women need to be reassured in their looks so much:



> It may sound mean, but I don't give a single fuck about body image issues.
> 
> Not one.
> 
> ...



The reason I didn't put this in the BBW forum is because on second thought, it applies to guys too.

However, even though the overall sentiment (it's who you are inside, don't try to look like the magazines, etc., etc.) is pretty normal...

But am I a dick for - by extension - not caring about reminding fat people they look good? Or about whether or not BBWs are positively portrayed in the media, teenage girls who throw up after meals, and what such and such celebrity said about obesity?

...And for rolling my eyes at people who do?


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 23, 2011)

I forgot to add that I do feel sympathy for people being truly abused or ostracized because of their looks, though.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I posted this on another - non fat-related - forum when someone brought up the topic of why some women need to be reassured in their looks so much:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're a dick (for this), then so am I. My female friends know how I feel on the issue and they're still my friends, so it can't be such an unpopular idea. I would think that, on some level, it's flattering. You don't care, you're not going to hold them to that kind of standard. Sure, it's harsh and blunt, but sugar coating and rubberized corners aren't for everyone anyway.


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## mossystate (Jan 23, 2011)

Alrighty then.


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## KittyKitten (Jan 23, 2011)

I cosign to this!


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## CarlaSixx (Jan 23, 2011)

I don't think you're in the wrong. Wish more people would subscribe to this idea.


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## Paquito (Jan 23, 2011)

I might be just be kinda dense tonight, but I'm not really understanding your point.


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## Christov (Jan 23, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I might be just be kinda dense tonight, but I'm not really understanding your point.


I think the cliff notes version basically boils down to 'if you're so obsessed with perfection, you deserve the disappointment when you realise you're not perfect yourself'.

It's rather an astute point when it comes down to the basics.

If you're monumentally shallow and value materialism above everything else, you _do_ sort of deserve it when the whole fantasy collapses into the reality of life.


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## mossystate (Jan 23, 2011)

It is just seems so...personal.


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## penguin (Jan 23, 2011)

Christov said:


> I think the cliff notes version basically boils down to 'if you're so obsessed with perfection, you deserve the disappointment when you realise you're not perfect yourself'.
> 
> It's rather an astute point when it comes down to the basics.
> 
> If you're monumentally shallow and value materialism above everything else, you _do_ sort of deserve it when the whole fantasy collapses into the reality of life.



How you've explained it makes much more sense.


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## Paquito (Jan 23, 2011)

Christov said:


> I think the cliff notes version basically boils down to 'if you're so obsessed with perfection, you deserve the disappointment when you realise you're not perfect yourself'.



Ah. Well then.

It just seems like a really boiled down, cut-and-dry statement for something so complicated.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 23, 2011)

Christov said:


> I think the cliff notes version basically boils down to 'if you're so obsessed with perfection, you deserve the disappointment when you realise you're not perfect yourself'.



I'd word it more like this:

If looking good is your life, you deserve never to feel like you look good enough.

Also, fat people (among others) don't need to be constantly reminded that they're beautiful or fed compliments, because beauty - especially how most people define it - ain't that big a deal.


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## Paquito (Jan 23, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> beauty - especially how most people define it - ain't that big a deal.



I agree - in a vacuum.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 23, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I agree - in a vacuum.



I _did_ say that if people are genuinely giving someone a hard time for their looks, then that's a different story.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I agree - in a vacuum.



Nothing's a big deal in a vacuum - oxygen breathers like us can't survive in one for very long anyway.

Also, in space, no one can hear you brag about your chest.


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## Gingembre (Jan 23, 2011)

Soooo...am I the only that likes to feel pretty?! And receive a compliment as acknowledgement for the effort* i've made into making myself look good/not-awful?! Not saying it's all about looks...i like being told i'm funny/did something clever/whatever, but why is it a big deal? I compliment people all the time about stuff, including their clothes/hair/makeup choices. I don't see why it applies to fat people specifically, either, rather than just everyone. Hmm...i'm not sure i entirely get the OP. *shrugs*

*just to clarify, when i say "effort" i dont mean i spend hours getting ready everyday. But i do make an effort if it's a date/special occasion and i always put some element of consideration/thought into what i'm wearing (clothes, makeup and accesories ) to make sure it co-ordinates and is occasion/venue appropriate.


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## aocutiepi (Jan 23, 2011)

Gingembre said:


> Soooo...am I the only that likes to feel pretty?! And receive a compliment as acknowledgement for the effort* i've made into making myself look good/not-awful?! Not saying it's all about looks...i like being told i'm funny/did something clever/whatever, but why is it a big deal? I compliment people all the time about stuff, including their clothes/hair/makeup choices. I don't see why it applies to fat people specifically, either, rather than just everyone. Hmm...i'm not sure i entirely get the OP. *shrugs*



You're not the only one. 

I have spent my whole life cultivating my intelligence and talent. I was valedictorian of my high school, graduated cum laude with my BA and majored in vocal music performance. I get told all of the time how smart I am or how talented I am at singing. Which is nice, I never dismiss a compliment of any kind, but the super rare comments about my appearance when I do make an effort (and I often don't... I don't see the point in getting dolled up for Chemistry lab) make me feel good. I find nothing criminal about it. 

I don't know if the OP's point would address me specifically since I've never devoted much of my life to being beautiful, but I wanted to let you know that you are not alone. :happy:

And OP, I tend to agree with you that too much emphasis on cultivating and complimenting physical beauty matters little when what we are is more than our outer shell and those who spend too much time on it are rarely going to be satisfied anyway. 

That still doesn't make me enjoy the compliments less. I guess that makes me a hypocrite? Which is fine. Like most hypocrites I'm stuck in my ways.


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## Bananaspills (Jan 23, 2011)

Hmmm, tough one. On the one hand, I agree with quite a lot of what you say. But personally I'm someone who puts a very limited amount of effort in my appearance. (I like looking good, but only if it doesn't mess with: 1. Being comfortable 2. Having time to spend on other things 3. Having money to spend on other things.) I agree with this: "*But if you can't see that spending your life picking exactly the right sparkly lip gloss and going on crash diets will not make you any better as a person, and that "perfectly" chiseled bodies and faces that look like they're made of porcelain are an arbitrary and unrealistic (and, IMO, fucking boring) standard anyway, then you deserve to feel ugly.*"

On the other hand, as someone who DOES have self esteem issues, being complimented is sooo helpful! And it's not as if I think that people need to be a certain weight/height/skin tone to be beautiful, I see other people of all shapes and sizes and find them attractive... Some times our inner insecurities prevent us from applying the same standard to ourselves, and I don't know why. So in a way, your point is kind of simplistic.

Also, about this: *"But am I a dick for - by extension - not caring about reminding fat people they look good? Or about whether or not BBWs are positively portrayed in the media, teenage girls who throw up after meals, and what such and such celebrity said about obesity?"*
I think for the vast majority of us, it's not about being "beautiful," it's about being "attractive." Everyone (well, almost everyone!) needs to feel attractive, for whatever reason, and I know that I have personally been attracted to people that if you had shown me a picture of them, I wouldn't have said they were beautiful (or even attractive!) But in this society, "beauty" and "attractiveness" have become almost interchangeable, and not everyone is mature or self aware enough to be able to distance themselves form that. It takes time, more for some people than others. And especially with fat people, being so often told by society that fatness is UNpretty, it takes some strength and maturity to be able to rise above that. Some times it's not that you value beauty more than intelligence/kindness/whatever, it's that beauty is the thing you're told again and again you lack, so that's what you need to be reassured about.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 23, 2011)

I said right in the first post that putting a decent amount of effort into looking good is no bad thing.

Anyway, this is a fat acceptance-based forum, so I looked at it from a "fat" angle...

But all I'm saying is that if people - no matter what size they are - base their lives around chasing unrealistic standards of beauty, they deserve to never live up to them.

...And I don't care about trying to comfort them about their body image issues, showing them glammed-up fat people on TV to make them feel better about their own potential, or talking them out of not eating.


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## AmazingAmy (Jan 23, 2011)

I think the OP is just plain old fucking _harsh_.

No one deserves to feel ugly, especially for something so _harmless _as wanting to look nice. Many things come and go in life - lovers, talents, jobs, abilities, opinions, homes - but one thing you always have to live with is how you look. Don't shit on anybody just because they notice something about themselves that is with them 24/7, especially when it's something people judge you on daily. Yeah, talent and intelligence are fan-fucking-tastic, but don't be so niave as to think they can conquer the supposed evils of lipgloss. You think people who focus on one thing (the material) over the other (the spiritual) are pathetic? Well then you're just a hypocrite, aren't you?

Like other people have already mentioned, looks are a personal thing. _Everyone _ here no doubt does something to enhance themselves, whether it be shaving their stubble, getting a haircut, or putting on perfume. So jump off your fucking high horse.

Now, if you'd actually mentioned a personality type when judging these perfectionists - say bullies, or bitches, or just generally very cruel, judgemental people who look down on others less groomed than themselves - then I'd be inclined to agree with you. Bad people deserve to feel bad. But I know a hell of a lot of extraordinarily good, kind, nice people who have body issues, who feel they have to look a certain way to the point of obsession in order to accepted. They do _not _deserve to feel even worse for already having an insecurity that controls them - saying such a thing is just so freaking unfair and dismssive. Saying what you've said OP is like saying fat people deserve to die early for having 'let' themselves become what they are.

Rant over. Good _fucking _grief.


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## Blackjack (Jan 23, 2011)

What I got from the whole thing, really, was "Fuck your body image issues. Get over it."

But yes, you are a dick for trivializing psychological problems and scoffing at those who are trying to examine them and work at creating an environment this particular issue has less of a chance to develop.


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## bigmac (Jan 23, 2011)

Christov said:


> I think the cliff notes version basically boils down to 'if you're so obsessed with perfection, you deserve the disappointment when you realise you're not perfect yourself'.
> 
> It's rather an astute point when it comes down to the basics.
> 
> If you're monumentally shallow and value materialism above everything else, you _do_ sort of deserve it when the whole fantasy collapses into the reality of life.



Indeed it can be fun to watch truly shallow people ultimately fail. Actually I'll have to add mean spirited too -- shallow and mean spirited -- then it can be fun to watch failure. But I don't think this observation applies to many people.

I'll also agree that its unrealistic to expect perfection. That said I think its a good to complement friends and family for their efforts and successes. We're all at least a little vain -- and there's nothing wrong with trying to make the people in your life feel good.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 23, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> But all I'm saying is that if people - no matter what size they are - base their lives around chasing unrealistic standards of beauty, they deserve to never live up to them.



I could go along with you if you'd change the phrase "deserve to" to "will." I'm a little uncomfortable with "deserve" because I don't think it's my job to decide what other people _ought_ to have: maybe it's nobody's job. OTOH, whoever sets up an unchanging standard of beauty for himself is bound for ugliness, simply because _everything changes._ As Robert Ingersoll put it: "In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments, merely consequences."


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## PunkyGurly74 (Jan 23, 2011)

Here is the the issue with the OP's point (which I don't disagree with necessarily) but, there is a reality that you are leaving out/no one is addressing.

It is estimated that on an average day, in an average city an average American will be exposed to over 10k forms forms of advertisement (logos/commercials/images). This is mostly subconscious. Most of us don't record every clothing logo on a shirt we see. 

So, me being a very big girl can leave the house feeling wonderful, yet, by the end of the day being left feeling awful for being big, single and not up to society standards. However, nothing I did necessarily triggered this. So, all day, subconsciously, I am reminded constantly that I am not thin, I cannot wear those clothes, I have never truly been part of a couple, nor can Ic afford almost anything they sell and I am not a character from "Friends". 
I didn't ask for this negative reinforcement..it just hits me everyday.

Just as there are thin people who need constant reassurance, there are big people too who need affirmations too. Yet, that is only a small part of the population - unless of course that is who one chooses to date. Then, welll...that is what one choose. Meaning, I have male friends who only like to date thin, hot, totally CRAZY women. They choose it - so live with it.

However, as I view it there is no reason to withhold a compliment to someone if it is authentic. If it popped in your head why wouldn't you share? It is withholding and stunts communication and I do believe says more about the person who refuses to be kind than the one who might like hearing a compliment. Stating that one refuses to give compliments reminds me of the guy who says "never expect a Valentine's Gift from me because that is just a Hallmark Holiday". I find it sad and odd that one feels the need to set withholding parameters.


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## thatgirl08 (Jan 23, 2011)

Yeah, you're a dick. Just because you've decided to not give a shit doesn't mean that everyone else has to, or even can. We are literally bombarded by negative body images by the media on a daily basis. Some of us are strong enough to overcome it, most of are not and for all, it is an ongoing process. We are all human, we all have some insecurities and moments of self consciousness, and it's nice to have someone there to support you. Not drown you in compliments, but someone who is there to remind you that the negative things you think about yourself aren't true. If you can't do that, I suggest you stay away from having a partner (fat, thin, male, female, anyone.)


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## Paquito (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm just saying that most people that you described who fight for "perfection" rarely do it just for that aesthetic. They're trying to attain that "perfect body" because that's what's advertised to us as beautiful. Therefore, anything that doesn't fit into that mold is mediocre. It's a vicious cycle. 
Media/Society imposes a certain ideal of beauty. Tons of people strive to attain that ideal in order to fit in or improve self-esteem. Media/Society reinforces that ideal (well if so many people are trying to achieve that beauty standard, we chose the right ideal!). More people hop on the bandwagon, and the people who have achieved that standard must now attain it at all costs. Lather, rinse, repeat.
It's just not a black-and-white case that you're claiming it is.


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## CastingPearls (Jan 23, 2011)

I wouldn't expect anything less from the OP considering his other threads and posts re his own 'struggle'...so whatevs.

Yeah..I agree with the good doctor that 'deserves' is problematic. Lots of hostility and bitterness loaded into that little word there.


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## superodalisque (Jan 23, 2011)

i kinda agree with the ops first post. it is shallow to allow looks to determine everything about how you feel--especially after some point in your life when you become an adult and realize how much else there is in the world to concentrate on. its just as bad to accept the opinions of those who go only by their narrow ideal of beauty as the people themselves who judge on looks. your only validating the bs. you are only agreeing to your own abuse. you are part of the problem. when you let that go finally you and other people are freed from it since it no longer matters. giving it so much serious attention only gives people power to judge you who don't deserve to be able to compare you to their bogus criteria.

emphasis put on a cruel person's attention is expected in a teen but not in an adult who has more experience in the world. its great to enjoy yourself and your body and beauty etc...everyone has something to love. but if you're constantly looking around to see if people hate you because of what you look like before you can love yourself then maybe you are just a little self centered. sometimes people DO need to go to the Kennedy school of ask not what my world can do for me but ask what i can do for my world. that means its time to grow up and get out of high school once and for all. maybe a little traveling and helping people with real problems and issues can put things in the overall correct focus so that people can start enjoying their lives rather than torturing themselves over nothing. the real beauty is in what you do with this life. if that can't be see that in yourself then maybe its time to open your eyes.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2011)

I think... a lot of people are letting their emotions get in the way and misinterpreting the OP's statement. All he's saying is that people who base their entire self identity on a flawed beauty concept deserve their inevitable failure to reach and/or adhere to it. We are not even talking about the people who admit they can't be "perfect" and don't even aim that high (aka, most people in the world). So a guy works out and gets a bit sculpted, so long as he understands that appearance isn't everything, he's fine. A woman puts on some makeup and wears things that she knows compliment her figure. So long as she understands that appearance isn't everything, she's fine. It's the people who think appearance IS everything that we're calling out here; those people are doomed to failure, and deserve that failure for failing/refusing to see that they are wrong.


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## AmazingAmy (Jan 23, 2011)

Forgotten_Futures said:


> I think... a lot of people are letting their emotions get in the way and misinterpreting the OP's statement. All he's saying is that people who base their entire self identity on a flawed beauty concept deserve their inevitable failure to reach and/or adhere to it. We are not even talking about the people who admit they can't be "perfect" and don't even aim that high (aka, most people in the world). So a guy works out and gets a bit sculpted, so long as he understands that appearance isn't everything, he's fine. A woman puts on some makeup and wears things that she knows compliment her figure. So long as she understands that appearance isn't everything, she's fine. It's the people who think appearance IS everything that we're calling out here; those people are doomed to failure, and deserve that failure for failing/refusing to see that they are wrong.



The reason some answers may be loaded with emotion is because the OP sounded very bitter in his original post. I find it hard to believe that what he said himself didn't come out of anger and contempt.

I'm still firmly against the idea that perfectionists 'deserve' (like Elaine said, that is a darkly loaded word) to feel ugly. Self-absorbed people are generally so wrapped up in themselves they don't even pose a threat to other people. If you hate them so much, leave them fucking be and stop wishing ill on people who probably don't even know you're there. It just makes _you _look like an arsehole.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2011)

AmazingAmy said:


> It just makes _you _look like an arsehole.



This may not be what you want to hear, but I am perfectly okay with that.


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## AmazingAmy (Jan 23, 2011)

Forgotten_Futures said:


> This may not be what you want to hear, but I am perfectly okay with that.



The last paragraph was aimed at people in general, not just to you.


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## superodalisque (Jan 23, 2011)

i do think self absorbed people hurt others. they put their insecurities onto other people and often expect them to be shared. they help to encourage that whole lookist culture. i think in that situation its easy for folks to play the victim, but they also victimize others as well by bringing them down and making them feel they aren't allowed to enjoy how they look. women do that a lot. it has a serious impact on why women in general hate their bodies or at least have to act like they do. 

and sometimes it is also a negative attention seeking mechanism as well thats manipulative of the people around them. there are a lot of people who use the power of the pitiful to try to control others. perpetual wound licking is something thats not constructive and everyone needs to work toward stopping. there is no reason to defend that attitude in anyone. i doubt if that focus serves to benefit anybody and it certainly is not harmless. its something to at least try to be rid of instead fo wallowing in.

i did not see so much anger in the op as frustration at the wastefulness of it all. people are beautiful. they have a beautiful life given to them. they should live it instead of frittering it away on worthless bs. and by being so focused on themselves and their own outlook and having to have that supported by others they stifle people who'd actually try to make the situation better. by definition self centered means you can't see the needs of others. so maybe someone like that does deserve their misery.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2011)

AmazingAmy said:


> The last paragraph was aimed at people in general, not just to you.



Hmm. True. But I don't think we're really talking about insecurities. I wouldn't call a chronic need to be "mediapathically beautiful" an insecurity. More a... debilitating mental defect.

Me, I have something of an inferiority complex. That, is an insecurity.

Though, strictly speaking, I was replying to the fact I don't care if something makes me look like an ass. People who like me anyway will (probably) overlook it, people who don't will keep on not liking me.


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## AmazingAmy (Jan 23, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i do think self absorbed people hurt others. they put their insecurities onto other people and often expect them to be shared. they help to encourage that whole lookist culture. i think in that situation its easy for folks to play the victim, but they also victimize others as well by bringing them down and making them feel they aren't allowed to enjoy how they look. women do that a lot. it has a serious impact on why women in general hate their bodies. and sometimes its a negative attention seeking mechanism as well thats manipulative of the people around them. there are a lot of people who use the power of the pitiful to try to control others. its something thats not constructive and everyone needs to work toward stopping. there is no resaon to defend that attitude in anyone. i doubt if it serves to benefit anybody and it certainly is not harmless. its something to be rid of. i did not see so much anger in the op as frustration at the wastefulness of it all.



Well that's an excellent attitude to have, because I agree that these things can turn into a nasty cycle whereby the one playing the victim puts their problems onto someone else, causing _them _to become obsessed with their own imperfections. But the OP didn't show an interest in helping anyone to break that cycle - he just proposed having them hate themselves even more and continue the whole shitty process. 

_That's_ what gets me. You don't cure anyone of anything by hating them even more for their problem.


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## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 23, 2011)

AmazingAmy said:


> _That's_ what gets me. You don't cure anyone of anything by hating them even more for their problem.



Unfortunately, that is true. Any sufficiently deranged person will lack the rationale to understand that their deranged behavior is the reason people dislike them, or that stopping said behavior will likewise stop the hate.

Not entirely sure they're capable of stopping, though. This may be one of those "separate the afflicted from the normal population" things.

It'd be like: "You hate me because I'm beautiful?!" "No." "Then why do you hate me?" "Because you try too hard to be beautiful." "But I am beautiful! You hate me because I'm beautiful!" "No, I... goddamnit, where's my shotgun."


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## superodalisque (Jan 23, 2011)

AmazingAmy said:


> Well that's an excellent attitude to have, because I agree that these things can turn into a nasty cycle whereby the one playing the victim puts their problems onto someone else, causing _them _to become obsessed with their own imperfections. But the OP didn't show an interest in helping anyone to break that cycle - he just proposed having them hate themselves even more and continue the whole shitty process.
> 
> _That's_ what gets me. You don't cure anyone of anything by hating them even more for their problem.



i can understand that. but my question is does the op deserve any empathy for the frustration he feels just as much as the person struggling needs some empathy? after all his is a struggle as well though different. he has to watch and deal with the thing that really makes no sense no matter how much we rationalize it. self hatred is not rational. its not okay. he has to see a person he cares about create situations in thier mind that cause them and others perpetual misery for no practical purpose. i think its easy to see the person suffering as those central to every story. sometimes thats their entire goal --to be recognized and have their feeling validated even if they are unrealistic. how is it any different for people who care about them and are just tired of sacrificing themselves to the matryredom at the alter of "ugly" fat. i can see how someone dealing with that everyday would be bitter--just as bitter as the fat person abused by the public.

maybe in his way he is trying to break the cycle by not molly codlding people to continue down the "i feel so very sorry for me" road. sometimes maybe people need to say straight out that a focus someone has seems selfish and unrealistically self centered. if we all just go along with it maybe they'll continue wallowing and never get shocked out of their self centered stooper enough to raise their heads, look around and start living. sometimes there needs to be an alternative to pitying someone. sometimes they just need a good ol kick in the butt. if a friend of yours kept saying how fat and ugly they felt i don't think it would be right to agree with them or act like its okay to feel that way. and sometimes if we even say we don't understand what it is they are doing to themselves and we don't approve they may finally get the idea that they are doing something that really isn't right. sometimes we can go too far in being "kind" and "thoughtful". is it really if we uphold people in their body dysmorphia?


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 23, 2011)

Forgotten_Futures said:


> It's the people who think appearance IS everything that we're calling out here; those people are doomed to failure, and deserve that failure for failing/refusing to see that they are wrong.





Forgotten_Futures said:


> Hmm. True. But I don't think we're really talking about insecurities. I wouldn't call a chronic need to be "mediapathically beautiful" an insecurity. More a... debilitating mental defect.



Put together, these two quotes almost sound like a description of narcissism. Narcissists believe themselves superior to everyone else and entitled to the attention and adoration of one and all. The flip side of this is that they must win every contest, receive every possible honor, and this makes them completely dependent on others for continual approval.

The American Psychological Association has listed narcissism as a personality disorder in their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, but they will not list it in the forthcoming edition. They claim that Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, etc. have made narcissism so 'mainstream' that it no longer counts as a disorder (I'm not making this up!)


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## Sasquatch! (Jan 23, 2011)

Continuing this thought a bit further--people who don't care about their appearance deserve to feel great about themselves?
In that case, I'm gonna stop showering and putting clean clothes on.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 24, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> It is shallow to allow looks to determine everything about how you feel--especially after some point in your life when you become an adult and realize how much else there is in the world to concentrate on. its just as bad to accept the opinions of those who go only by their narrow ideal of beauty as the people themselves who judge on looks. your only validating the bs. you are only agreeing to your own abuse. you are part of the problem. when you let that go finally you and other people are freed from it since it no longer matters. giving it so much serious attention only gives people power to judge you who don't deserve to be able to compare you to their bogus criteria.



That's all I was trying to say.

And the only reason I said that they "deserve" to feel bad is because that's the surest way to learn from your mistakes. For some people I've known (not all, but some), *feeling that you're never good enough for mainstream standards of beauty leads to acceptance that those standards are bullshit*.

To use a metaphor: if I hadn't been consistently awful grades all my life, maybe I wouldn't have taken the effort to cultivate any talents outside of school. Maybe - like a lot of people I know - I'd believe the traditional school-college-job route was the only thing worth working at.

And Sasquatch, did you even read the first post? Like, at all?

--

BTW: They shouldn't remove narcissism from the list, but they should raise the standards to qualify it as a disorder a bit. Even though it's more common now, I think we can all agree some people take it far, far into the realm of mental sickness.

I'm not going to name names, though.


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## Sasquatch! (Jan 24, 2011)

What? You mean this isn't the extreme interests story archive? Oops, my bad.


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## Blackjack (Jan 24, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> BTW: They shouldn't remove narcissism from the list, but they should raise the standards to qualify it as a disorder a bit. Even though it's more common now, I think we can all agree some people take it far, far into the realm of mental sickness.
> 
> I'm not going to name names, though.



Tasty, tasty passive-aggressiveness.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 24, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i can understand that. but my question is does the op deserve any empathy for the frustration he feels just as much as the person struggling needs some empathy? after all his is a struggle as well though different. he has to watch and deal with the thing that really makes no sense no matter how much we rationalize it. self hatred is not rational. its not okay. he has to see a person he cares about create situations in thier mind that cause them and others perpetual misery for no practical purpose. i think its easy to see the person suffering as those central to every story. sometimes thats their entire goal --to be recognized and have their feeling validated even if they are unrealistic. how is it any different for people who care about them and are just tired of sacrificing themselves to the matryredom at the alter of "ugly" fat. i can see how someone dealing with that everyday would be bitter--just as bitter as the fat person abused by the public.
> 
> maybe in his way he is trying to break the cycle by not molly codlding people to continue down the "i feel so very sorry for me" road. sometimes maybe people need to say straight out that a focus someone has seems selfish and unrealistically self centered. if we all just go along with it maybe they'll continue wallowing and never get shocked out of their self centered stooper enough to raise their heads, look around and start living. sometimes there needs to be an alternative to pitying someone. sometimes they just need a good ol kick in the butt. if a friend of yours kept saying how fat and ugly they felt i don't think it would be right to agree with them or act like its okay to feel that way. and sometimes if we even say we don't understand what it is they are doing to themselves and we don't approve they may finally get the idea that they are doing something that really isn't right. sometimes we can go too far in being "kind" and "thoughtful". is it really if we uphold people in their body dysmorphia?



Thank you. 

And, despite what some people may think, I didn't start this topic out of pure spite for my ex.

She was just one in a tens-deep line of BBWs & BHMs who I've seen develop entirely preventable eating disorders, and generally just sit around whinging and pitying themselves all the time for no truly valid reason (even when people have told them they're perfectly attractive).

And honestly - to me, the "media is making me hate myself" line is about as valid as "Metal and violent video games caused Columbine." 

No one's making you take TV seriously. No one's even making you watch it.

And for those of you who think I'm specifically anti-fat, I generally feel the same way about people who hate themselves for their race or sexual preferences.


----------



## mediaboy (Jan 24, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And, despite what some people may think, I didn't start this topic out of pure spite for my ex.
> 
> ...



And the moral of the story is not a single fuck was given that day, god bless


----------



## KingColt (Jan 24, 2011)

It´s funny to me how you look for reassurance while condeming it in the same sentence. But that might be just me.


----------



## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 24, 2011)

KingColt said:


> It´s funny to me how you look for reassurance while condeming it in the same sentence. But that might be just me.



Did I ever condemn *ALL* reassurance? All I was really trying to say is that people who base their lives on what the media tells them to look like will have to learn from their failures, and it's not our obligation to coddle them.

Going back and reading it, though, the one thing I'd like to change is saying that I don't care about body image issues at all.

However, I still can't say I feel sorry for people who let them control their lives, because _everyone_ has body image issues to some extent.


----------



## CastingPearls (Jan 24, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And, despite what some people may think, I didn't start this topic out of pure spite for my ex.
> 
> ...



Maybe not out of PURE spite but yeah, your tone betrays you. (oh and before anyone comes running in to save the day to condemn the 'tone' perspective, it's MY perception, so save your keystrokes)

Your second sentence again betrays you--you're specifying fat people --this is all about your personal beef because you can't convince someone out of how they feel and guess what, pal? You can't! It's not that simple. This whole thread is all about YOU. 'No truly valid reason' isn't truly valid to you. Just because YOU don't get it doesn't mean it isn't valid. Just because you tell someone they're beautiful doesn't mean the sky is going to open and rain joy on them because they have your interest or approval. If they would just BELIEVE if they would just believe.....You don't seem to get that it isn't about YOU which makes this thread so painfully ironic.





KingColt said:


> It´s funny to me how you look for reassurance while condeming it in the same sentence. But that might be just me.



It's not just you and it's more pitiful than funny.


----------



## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 24, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> And honestly - to me, the "media is making me hate myself" line is about as valid as "Metal and violent video games caused Columbine."



Wait - metal and violent video games didn't cause Columbine?

Jack Thompson was wrong?

Stop the World, I want to get off!


----------



## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 24, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Maybe not out of PURE spite but yeah, your tone betrays you. (oh and before anyone comes running in to save the day to condemn the 'tone' perspective, it's MY perception, so save your keystrokes)
> 
> Your second sentence again betrays you--you're specifying fat people --this is all about your personal beef because you can't convince someone out of how they feel and guess what, pal? You can't! It's not that simple. This whole thread is all about YOU. 'No truly valid reason' isn't truly valid to you. Just because YOU don't get it doesn't mean it isn't valid. Just because you tell someone they're beautiful doesn't mean the sky is going to open and rain joy on them because they have your interest or approval. If they would just BELIEVE if they would just believe.....You don't seem to get that it isn't about YOU which makes this thread so painfully ironic.



That was months ago.

By this point, I'm actually glad my ex is losing weight. Since she wants to be thin that badly, I respect her much more for taking action on it instead of just being antisocial and binge-eating like she used to.

(Also, it turns out her gallstone problem never flared up again and damaged her health like I was afraid it would, so it's not all that bad.)

And if it was only one person, instead of *the vast majority of fat people I know*, it wouldn't be enough of an issue to get angry about.


----------



## scoot (Jan 24, 2011)

great insight from all of you... :eat1:


----------



## CastingPearls (Jan 24, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> That was months ago.
> 
> By this point, I'm actually glad my ex is losing weight. Since she wants to be thin that badly, I respect her much more for taking action on it instead of just being antisocial and binge-eating like she used to.
> 
> ...


The most damaging body image issue to you, in all honesty, is YOUR own but you'll never see that, which is ironic. 

In answer to the OP 'am I a dick' the answer is...yeah you are. But I can't convince you of that any more than you can convince someone of something they don't think they are either. 

Walking around in circles makes me dizzy so I eventually stop, but that's just me.


----------



## scoot (Jan 24, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> The most damaging body image issue to you, in all honesty, is YOUR own but you'll never see that, which is ironic.
> 
> In answer to the OP 'am I a dick?' the answer is...yeah you are. But I can't convince you of that any more than you can convince someone of something they don't think they are either.
> 
> Walking around in circles makes me dizzy so I eventually stop, but that's just me.



Agh-ha-ha-ha!


----------



## AmazingAmy (Jan 24, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> The most damaging body image issue to you, in all honesty, is YOUR own but you'll never see that, which is ironic.
> 
> In answer to the OP 'am I a dick' the answer is...yeah you are. But I can't convince you of that any more than you can convince someone of something they don't think they are either.
> 
> Walking around in circles makes me dizzy so I eventually stop, but that's just me.



:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:


----------



## frankman (Jan 24, 2011)

I agree with the OP in the same way that I think schitzophrenics are just being difficult, drug addicts should get another hobby and gay people aren't trying being straight enough.


----------



## verucassault (Jan 24, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I might be just be kinda dense tonight, but I'm not really understanding your point.



ditto, i dont get it


----------



## penguin (Jan 24, 2011)

frankman said:


> I agree with the OP in the same way that I think schitzophrenics are just being difficult, drug addicts should get another hobby and gay people aren't trying being straight enough.



And depressed people should just cheer up.


----------



## frankman (Jan 24, 2011)

penguin said:


> And depressed people should just cheer up.



Well, they should.


Am I wrong for thinking this?


----------



## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 24, 2011)

OK. I was wrong.


----------



## luscious_lulu (Jan 24, 2011)

*cough*dick*cough*


----------



## luscious_lulu (Jan 24, 2011)

frankman said:


> I agree with the OP in the same way that I think schitzophrenics are just being difficult, drug addicts should get another hobby and gay people aren't trying being straight enough.





frankman said:


> Well, they should.
> 
> 
> Am I wrong for thinking this?



Gawd! Here I am spending thousands on meds & all I had to do is cheer up?


----------



## frankman (Jan 24, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> Gawd! Here I am spending thousands on meds & all I had to do is cheer up?



Exactly!

And a word for all you alcoholics out there: it's called diet Pepsi, try it.


----------



## Shosh (Jan 24, 2011)

To the OP, I see nothing wrong with a woman caring about her appearance, and wanting to look and feel her best.

Would you have us all looking like slobs?

That will not be happening.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

To the OP, Just because we don't all wear or for whatever reason can't wear formfitting clothes, don't be so quick to listen to those who write us off as slobs.


----------



## Saoirse (Jan 24, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> To the OP, Just because we don't all wear or for whatever reason can't wear formfitting clothes, don't be so quick to listen to those who write us off as slobs.



truth! not all of us crave the validation of strangers on the internet.


----------



## Shosh (Jan 24, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> truth! not all of us crave the validation of strangers on the internet.



You obviously do because you post photos here. 

I do not need anybody's validation to know that I am a kind hearted, intelligent and beautiful person.

That comes from within.


----------



## Shosh (Jan 24, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> To the OP, Just because we don't all wear or for whatever reason can't wear formfitting clothes, don't be so quick to listen to those who write us off as slobs.



I refer to womankind in general, fat and thin.

Does he want that we should not make any effort to have pride in our appearance?

Your obsession with being nasty towards me regardless of the topic is starting to show.

Bitterness.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

Shosh said:


> You obviously do because you post photos here.
> 
> I do not need anybody's validation to know that I am a kind hearted, intelligent and beautiful person.
> 
> That comes from within.



Ahem, is that not your photo peeking out over there on your avatar? So i wouldn't be tossing that little tidbit out that she has to be seeking validation because hers in on there in the same breath that you say you aren't seeking validation. You aren't better than the rest of us sugarbritches


----------



## Shosh (Jan 24, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> Ahem, is that not your photo peeking out over there on your avatar? So i wouldn't be tossing that little tidbit out that she has to be seeking validation because hers in on there in the same breath that you say you aren't seeking validation. You aren't better than the rest of us sugarbritches



I have many friends here, and people like my contributions.

If you are not amongst those who do, I could care less.

That is your issue.

Tall poppy syndrome at work.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

Shosh said:


> I refer to womankind in general, fat and thin.
> 
> Does he want that we should not make any effort to have pride in our appearance?
> 
> ...



Aww toots, I was responding to the OP just like you were and my response was about women in general , just like yours was. I'm not the least bit bitter . I have two tatas, ( maybe a bit bigger, Don't be a hater), Long red hair and freckles. I gets the love from da men too so I'm not the least bit bitter. You have a nice night there sugarbritches.


----------



## olwen (Jan 24, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I might be just be kinda dense tonight, but I'm not really understanding your point.



Seems to me like he's bitter about dating or trying to date someone (or maybe more than one) who didn't like being fat and tried to damndest to loose weight which caused lots of tension. He probably found himself constantly telling her she was fine the way she was but she wasn't havin it. He got fed up, or she got fed up and that was the end of it. The post he says he read in the other forum reinforced he view that he shouldn't have to be responsible for her self esteem and what he saw as a focus on looks. 

To the OP, No you aren't responsible for anyone else's self esteem, but expecting someone to just magically change their entire world view from one compliment or even many after having spent the entire lives being told they're a piece of shit for being fat (by friend and family, not just the media) is just as unrealistic. The original OP's view is simplistic. Most fat people have been conditioned to believe they are morally reprehensible for being fat. Those feelings of shame are not going to go away just because you tell a fat chick she's beautiful. Thin people are told the same thing tho, not just by the media, it comes from their family and friends as well. It take a certain kind of person to rise above all that. The obvious solution is to just not date fatties who hate themselves for being fat.


----------



## Saoirse (Jan 24, 2011)

Shosh said:


> You obviously do because you post photos here.
> 
> I do not need anybody's validation to know that I am a kind hearted, intelligent and beautiful person.
> 
> That comes from within.



shit son, i wasn't talking about me. everyone knows I crave attention. its why i do a lot of things. chill your face.


----------



## Shosh (Jan 24, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> Aww toots, I was responding to the OP just like you were and my response was about women in general , just like yours was. I'm not the least bit bitter . I have two tatas, ( maybe a bit bigger, Don't be a hater), Long red hair and freckles. I gets the love from da men too so I'm not the least bit bitter. You have a nice night there sugarbritches.



Toots and sugarbritches?

Someone is showing their age here. Dude I dont even think my grandmother used those expressions.

Lol


----------



## penguin (Jan 24, 2011)

Shosh said:


> You obviously do because you post photos here.



That's not the only reason why someone would post photos here. There's a difference between wanting to be appreciated and wanting to be validated. There's also a difference in wanting to share your journey with others and wanting to be validated.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

Shosh said:


> Toots and sugarbritches?
> 
> Someone is showing their age here. Dude I dont even think my grandmother used those expressions.
> 
> Lol



Yes I am 48 will soon be 49. Amazingly i have no wrinkles and still manage to catch the attention of the young men occasionally. Hmm dude, that was popular a long time ago as well first used in the 60's i believe . You have aged quite well yourself.


----------



## ThatFatGirl (Jan 24, 2011)

Shosh said:


> Toots and sugarbritches?
> 
> Someone is showing their age here. Dude I dont even think my grandmother used those expressions.
> 
> Lol






Shosh said:


> You obviously do because you post photos here.
> 
> I do not need anybody's validation to know that *I am a kind hearted, intelligent and beautiful person.*
> 
> That comes from within.




Posting it all over the net doesn't make it reality.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

ThatFatGirl said:


> Posting it all over the net doesn't make it reality.



But don't you think i have held up well? I mean letting my age show and all has made me wonder? Am I still be-u-tiff-l? Do you adore me?


----------



## Blackjack (Jan 24, 2011)

ThatFatGirl said:


> Posting it all over the net doesn't make it reality.


----------



## TraciJo67 (Jan 24, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> Yes I am 48 will soon be 49. Amazingly i have no wrinkles and still manage to catch the attention of the young men occasionally. Hmm dude, that was popular a long time ago as well first used in the 60's i believe . You have aged quite well yourself.


 
lol @ anyone past 40 hauling out the "ur old" card.

Irony, thy sweet, sweet irony 

I catch the attention of young men EVERY DAY. Usually, they're hitting me up for spare change, but STILL.


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> lol @ anyone past 40 hauling out the "ur old" card.
> 
> Irony, thy sweet, sweet irony
> 
> I catch the attention of young men EVERY DAY. Usually, they're hitting me up for spare change, but STILL.



I still think you are hot stuff. rawrr.:kiss2:


----------



## TraciJo67 (Jan 24, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> I still think you are hot stuff. rawrr.:kiss2:


 
Score, me!

I just got validation on teh interwebz! My self-esteem is now _through the roof_, Cinnabuns!


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

TraciJo67 said:


> Score, me!
> 
> I just got validation on teh interwebz! My self-esteem is now _through the roof_, Cinnabuns!



Just doin my part sugarlips


----------



## mossystate (Jan 24, 2011)

This is the worst geriatric cyber...ever.









And I should know.

bada bing


----------



## cinnamitch (Jan 24, 2011)

mossystate said:


> This is the worst geriatric cyber...ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bring a shower chair and i can come up with an idea for a three girl photo shoot(involves poligrip, oxygen and Depends)


----------



## frankman (Jan 25, 2011)

Aw come on! I don't care if you delete the posts, but at least let me keep the rep...

*storms away in a flurry of fake outrage*


----------



## Forgotten_Futures (Jan 25, 2011)

And.... I'm calling Godwin's law and unsubscribing from this now thoroughly derailed thread full of people who can't bother to read.


----------



## penguin (Jan 25, 2011)

Forgotten_Futures said:


> And.... I'm calling Godwin's law and unsubscribing from this now thoroughly derailed thread full of people who can't bother to read.



You need this:


----------



## luscious_lulu (Jan 25, 2011)

Shosh said:


> You obviously do because you post photos here.
> 
> I do not need anybody's validation to know that I am a kind hearted, intelligent and beautiful person.
> 
> That comes from within.



Yet you post pics here ALL the time.


----------



## Paquito (Jan 25, 2011)

cinnamitch said:


> sugarbritches.



At first I thought you said sugarbitches.

I'm going to be using "sugarbitches" from now on.

What a helpful thread.


----------



## EMH1701 (Jan 25, 2011)

Um, wow.

As someone who a. grew up with a fat-hating mother who started me on my first diet at age 11 and who I was never perfect enough for, and b. was terribly bullied all throughout school until the day I left high school, how would I have *not* had body image issues?

There were times, in my younger years, that I actually had suicidal thoughts because of the way that I was treated.

So if you grow up being constantly bombarded with the message that you are somehow a bad person because of the way you look, it takes a very, very long time to overcome that.

I'm not saying that I still desire to be thin. I do know what it's like to be treated like dirt for not being what society considers perfect. So does it make me a bad person for being able to empathize with others?

No, you don't have to date someone with low self-esteem if you don't want to, but gaining self-esteem is a process which takes time. For some people, that can be longer than others.


----------



## luscious_lulu (Jan 25, 2011)

Paquito said:


> At first I thought you said sugarbitches.
> 
> I'm going to be using "sugarbitches" from now on.
> 
> What a helpful thread.



:bow:


Marry me?


----------



## frankman (Jan 25, 2011)

Poké-Godwin: 

View attachment pokÃ©-kettle.JPG


----------



## AmazingAmy (Jan 25, 2011)

I was just watching QI, and apparently some Wiki person did a study and found out that a majority of Internet discussions (aka arguments) usually ended once someone pulled the Nazi card as a last resort... s'all good.


----------



## thatgirl08 (Jan 26, 2011)

Shosh said:


> You obviously do because you post photos here.
> 
> I do not need anybody's validation to know that I am a kind hearted, intelligent and beautiful person.
> 
> That comes from within.



Okay.. this doesn't evnen make sense.. you post even more pictures than Saorise sooo aren't you by that same token, even more a picwhore seeking validation?


----------



## Jes (Jan 26, 2011)

Shosh said:


> Toots and sugarbritches?
> 
> Someone is showing their age here. Dude I dont even think my grandmother used those expressions.
> 
> Lol



I like the broken chair best.


----------



## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 26, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> Now, don't get me wrong - I like hygiene. Wearing makeup when you go out is nice. So is a spot of exercise and a good diet.





Seventy-Seven said:


> I forgot to add that I do feel sympathy for people being truly abused or ostracized because of their looks, though.



It seems everyone missed those two bits.


----------



## AmazingAmy (Jan 26, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> It seems everyone missed these two lines.



I took them as a last-minute disclaimer to cover your arse at a later date. Like now.


----------



## frankman (Jan 26, 2011)

Don't be a whiny little bitch, dude. It's late, nobody even cares about the OP anymore.


----------



## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 26, 2011)

^^ They were right in the first and second post, respectively.

And I wouldn't have written them if I didn't mean it.

^ EHM1701 was obviously commenting on the original post, so someone's still reading it.


----------



## CastingPearls (Jan 26, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> It seems everyone missed those two bits.


*I* didn't miss them. They speak more of what you approve or authorize --again--your body image issue. 

Again. 

You have no control over anyone but yourself. Dismissing and condemning (deserves I think was the word you used?) someone's choices or actions because you have no control or don't understand it doesn't make you right no matter how many disclaimers you decorate it with.


----------



## scoot (Jan 26, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> Gawd! Here I am spending thousands on meds & all I had to do is cheer up?




Yea, that's all it ever was... Eghhheh - heh-haa-haaaaa! It's all about what U need. BTW What kind of meds are U on? Can I have some (just kidding)? It's all good ~ not to worry. Have a great evening...


----------



## luscious_lulu (Jan 26, 2011)

scoot said:


> Yea, that's all it ever was... Eghhheh - heh-haa-haaaaa! It's all about what U need. BTW What kind of meds are U on? Can I have some (just kidding)? It's all good ~ not to worry. Have a great evening...



I can't decide if you are being an ass or trying to be funny, but coming off as an ass. Either way just stop.


----------



## frankman (Jan 26, 2011)

scoot said:


> Yea, that's all it ever was... Eghhheh - heh-haa-haaaaa! It's all about what U need. BTW What kind of meds are U on? Can I have some (just kidding)? It's all good ~ not to worry. Have a great evening...



This is by far the weirdest fucking post on the forum.


----------



## luscious_lulu (Jan 26, 2011)

frankman said:


> This is by far the weirdest fucking post on the forum.



I think he may *NEED* some medication.


----------



## Dromond (Jan 27, 2011)

scoot said:


> Yea, that's all it ever was... Eghhheh - heh-haa-haaaaa! It's all about what U need. BTW What kind of meds are U on? Can I have some (just kidding)? It's all good ~ not to worry. Have a great evening...



This made no sense at all. It's like the anti-matter version of sense.


----------



## superodalisque (Jan 27, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> It seems everyone missed those two bits.



people only pay attention to selective parts of posts when they especially don't want to address an issue, particularly one that makes them responsible for their own happiness or unhappiness. it has to be all your fault. you make people fat and you go around telling them fat is ugly right? and if you try to say hating yourself fat is wrong OMG you are the devil. how dare you be frustrated and not want to allow us to wallow in our own autoprejudice!  just hold our head and stroke our hair while we hold a mirror and puke into the toilet.


----------



## thatgirl08 (Jan 27, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> people only pay attention to selective parts of posts when they especially don't want to address an issue, particularly one that makes them responsible for their own happiness or unhappiness. it has to be all your fault. you make people fat and you go around telling them fat is ugly right? and if you try to say hating yourself fat is wrong OMG you are the devil. how dare you be frustrated and not want to allow us to wallow in our own autoprejudice!  just hold our head and stroke our hair while we hold a mirror and puke into the toilet.



Whether you like it or not, we are not always completely in control of our own emotions, sometimes despite our best efforts we are unhappy. Sometimes we're frustrated, sad, disappointed. And, sometimes we're influenced by our environment.. by the media, by other unhappy people in our lives.. this doesn't make us pathetic or vain or sick.. it makes us human. 

Everyone has bad days, bad weeks, bad years.. and for most people, reaching true happiness is an ongoing process. A few steps forward, a few back. You've had bad moments too, supero. There were days when you didn't feel attractive.. days your self esteem took a hit, because you're human, you're emotional, you're just like the rest of us. Maybe you've had an epiphany, maybe your days are far and few between now, but why do you have to shit on everyone else's struggle?

Your remark at the end is really sad. The insinuation that anyone who isn't ultra confident at all times has an eating disorder is offensive. Even more offensive is that some people here DO have eating disorders (legitimate mental health conditions, not just vain attempts at thinness as you imply with the mirror comment) let's not cheapen that with offhanded comments.

If you want to stop the "autoprejudice" in the community, let's start with the understanding that we are all coming from different situations. & let's start with some tolerance towards those who may not be in the same point you are in the journey to self love. Let's stop tearing each other down because we don't say the right things, or do the right things, or feel the right way because it's no different from being torn down by everyone else for not looking the right way.


----------



## ashmamma84 (Jan 27, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> Whether you like it or not, we are not always completely in control of our own emotions, sometimes despite our best efforts we are unhappy. Sometimes we're frustrated, sad, disappointed. And, sometimes we're influenced by our environment.. by the media, by other unhappy people in our lives.. this doesn't make us pathetic or vain or sick.. it makes us human.
> 
> Everyone has bad days, bad weeks, bad years.. and for most people, reaching true happiness is an ongoing process. A few steps forward, a few back. You've had bad moments too, supero. There were days when you didn't feel attractive.. days your self esteem took a hit, because you're human, you're emotional, you're just like the rest of us. Maybe you've had an epiphany, maybe your days are far and few between now, but why do you have to shit on everyone else's struggle?
> 
> ...



:bow: And how old are you?


----------



## butch (Jan 27, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> Whether you like it or not, we are not always completely in control of our own emotions, sometimes despite our best efforts we are unhappy. Sometimes we're frustrated, sad, disappointed. And, sometimes we're influenced by our environment.. by the media, by other unhappy people in our lives.. this doesn't make us pathetic or vain or sick.. it makes us human.
> 
> Everyone has bad days, bad weeks, bad years.. and for most people, reaching true happiness is an ongoing process. A few steps forward, a few back. You've had bad moments too, supero. There were days when you didn't feel attractive.. days your self esteem took a hit, because you're human, you're emotional, you're just like the rest of us. Maybe you've had an epiphany, maybe your days are far and few between now, but why do you have to shit on everyone else's struggle?
> 
> ...



This is one of the wisest posts I've read in some time. I try to remind myself that the negative feelings I have are all part of the fabric of life, and they have utility in my life as much as the positive ones do. To presume that one can, and should, achieve a state of total 100% positive self-esteem and personal happiness is as dangerous as assuming that all people can, and should, achieve a BMI number in the 'average weight' category.


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## luscious_lulu (Jan 27, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> people only pay attention to selective parts of posts when they especially don't want to address an issue, particularly one that makes them responsible for their own happiness or unhappiness. it has to be all your fault. you make people fat and you go around telling them fat is ugly right? and if you try to say hating yourself fat is wrong OMG you are the devil. how dare you be frustrated and not want to allow us to wallow in our own autoprejudice!  just hold our head and stroke our hair while we hold a mirror and puke into the toilet.




Or we read them and saw them as a poor excuse to be rude and cruel.

I am a very confident BBW, yet I disagreed in large part what the op said and disagreed completely with how it was said. 

Thatgirl08 hit the nail on the head. Kudos to her for voicing a logical and passionate response.


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## superodalisque (Jan 27, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> Or we read them and saw them as a poor excuse to be rude and cruel.
> 
> I am a very confident BBW, yet I disagreed in large part what the op said and disagreed completely with how it was said.
> 
> Thatgirl08 hit the nail on the head. Kudos to her for voicing a logical and passionate response.



i understand where you are both coming from but by that logic i'd also have to be sympathetic to guys who are in the closet and are influenced heavily by what society says instead of what he knows intellectually to be true. they are two sides of the same coin for me. i'd much rather an FA feel upset and frustrated about a fat woman feeling ugly and unwanted than him feeling that it was perfectly understandable and natural because he also believed that most of society including ourselves found us unattractive. empathy to a point is a good thing. but also being honest about the frustration of people failing to see that they are okay is also a good thing. its also a natural emotion to be mad at seeing people you care for throw years and months of their lives down the toilet for no good reason. its not about expecting someone to be confident every day. its about finding ways not to be maudlin every day over something thats really not worth it and wasting your life. 

i personally believe that if someone hates being fat so much then they should just try their best not to be. no excuses. sometimes its just time for action. and then other people who feel good being fat can enjoy their life without worrying if other people feel bad if they feel good about it. its not so much the feeling bad a few days here and there that i worry about. its the insistance that everyone one else must feel bad along with them most of the time and that depression is a way of life for everyone. and people who don't or don't want to experience that are somehow invalid. even though i fully get where you guys are coming from i still disagree because there are a lot of people it has not helped and they come to dims riding the same old pony year after year after year. depression is a mental illness. dwelling on the dark side of life is not a healthy way to live for anyone. if someone is living outside the norm it should be said so that they might be more likely to get the help because we can't always do it alone. arm chair psychology from a forum with people who have no idea what exactly mental health means or maybe even what it looks like is not a safe place to get advice about what normal focus is.

as for the eating disorder thing, that was not what i had in mind. all that sentence meant was its unfair to always expect that kind of empathy and agreement from everyone. but in a way i wish i had meant it that way because it would make a lot of sense. it would have said that obsessing over your looks and having the kind of body dysmorphia an anorexic does would not be the thing to do. if its not okay for an actual anorexic to torture herself over fatness then why in the world would it be alright for an actual fat woman to torure herself over her weight? neither one, an anorexic if she gets fat, or a woman who is already fat, is truly ugly or disfigured except in her own mind. its unreasonable and unfair for anyone to do that to themselves. 

if anyone you cared about was doing something self destructive of course there would be times it would make you angry and ready to vent. it should. thats human. expecting sympathy all of the time is unreasonable and asking people to be inhumanly perfect, just like it would be inhumanly perfect to think a fat woman would be totally confident with every thing about her life on every day at every moment. see how it works? everyone gets to have emotions, understandable emotions.

i agree with the op that there are way too many fat people playing the i hate myself game for attention and for passes. where it really comes out is when they don't allow others the very same emotions they feel free to vent themselves.


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## ashmamma84 (Jan 27, 2011)

Do you have a PhD in clinical or abnormal psychology?


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## superodalisque (Jan 27, 2011)

thatgirl08 said:


> Whether you like it or not, we are not always completely in control of our own emotions, sometimes despite our best efforts we are unhappy. Sometimes we're frustrated, sad, disappointed. And, sometimes we're influenced by our environment.. by the media, by other unhappy people in our lives.. this doesn't make us pathetic or vain or sick.. it makes us human.
> 
> Everyone has bad days, bad weeks, bad years.. and for most people, reaching true happiness is an ongoing process. A few steps forward, a few back. You've had bad moments too, supero. There were days when you didn't feel attractive.. days your self esteem took a hit, because you're human, you're emotional, you're just like the rest of us. Maybe you've had an epiphany, maybe your days are far and few between now, but why do you have to shit on everyone else's struggle?
> 
> ...



i would agree with the not tearing each other down part a lot but there is a lot of irony in that statement. 

i agree with a whole lot you have to say. but like many you've read in between the lines what you'd have liked me to be thinking without really understanding. your mind went to some dark places mine never did. i never mentioned the word confidence. i never said anything about eating disorders. that was all your thought process which has nothing to do with mine. its not about labeling. its about cultivating at least a little happiness in ones life by not placing too much attention on something seen as a short coming. and, by leaving the need to compete with other women in some way, via looks , size haircolor etc... behind finally so you don't always feel somehow inferior unworthy or at a loss and always under attack. 

yes sometimes people are sad but not everyday all of the time about the same issue. sometimes they actually begin to replace bad memories with good ones. sometimes they replace a bad environment with a good one. they don't always have to dwell on the bad old days. then maybe the past gets to be exactly what it is--the past. and not something miserable we have to turn over and over in our minds everyday reliving it over and over again and punishing ourselves for something we didn't even do wrong. yes it can haunt people but it doesn't have to be 100% of the time--or at least that was the goal , or so i thought.


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## superodalisque (Jan 27, 2011)

ashmamma84 said:


> Do you have a PhD in clinical or abnormal psychology?



no PHD but i've had training and practical experience with people with illnesses at least enough to have an idea that when people say they are unhappy they usually are.


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## superodalisque (Jan 27, 2011)

frankman said:


> I agree with the OP in the same way that I think schitzophrenics are just being difficult, drug addicts should get another hobby and gay people aren't trying being straight enough.



people are just fat. its really not such a big deal. interesting you equate being fat with a mental illness, an addiction and a whole other sexuality all together. fat people are just people who happen to be fat. and, most people are fat. no need to make it a bigger struggle than it really is. its not a sickness or deformity to bemoan. it isn't a sexual minority that has to fight it s way through many violent acts and lots of legal discrimination. please put it in its true perspective so people can get on with the business of living and actually enjoying it.


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## frankman (Jan 28, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> people are just fat. its really not such a big deal. interesting you equate being fat with a mental illness, an addiction and a whole other sexuality all together. fat people are just people who happen to be fat. and, most people are fat. no need to make it a bigger struggle than it really is. its not a sickness or deformity to bemoan. it isn't a sexual minority that has to fight it s way through many violent acts and lots of legal discrimination. please put it in its true perspective so people can get on with the business of living and actually enjoying it.



Silly silly Super-O. It wasn't about being fat, it was about feeling bad about one's body, something that MANY people feel. Fat people wanting to be thin, thin people wanting bigger tits, pudgy guys wanting to be more buff, buff guys wanting to be even more buff, thin women wanting to be thinner, the list goes on and on. 

Body image can seriously hamper one's "business of enjoying life", and none of these people DESERVE to feel miserable, which was what the OP implied.

I showed him, with the use of hyperbole, that he was wrong and quite frankly a bit of an ass.

Of course do I not think that schitzophrenics are the same as fat people, but what I intended to say with a bit of sarcasm (which ALL other people got, by the way, this explanation is really just for you), is that _it's none of the OPs fucking business how people feel about their bodies, nor is it something for him to judge._ The fact that in this case he was talking about fat women (and women only, for some weird reason) does in no way detract from that simple rule.

Blabla fat people are beautiful and all that crap, but if they don't feel that way, _you can't order them to fucking cheer up_, Super-O, even when they're not a minority or war-weary refugees. It's nice to see you have none of the problems people with body image trouble do have. The fact that you don't doesn't mean that they don't.


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## CastingPearls (Jan 28, 2011)

frankman said:


> Silly silly Super-O. It wasn't about being fat, it was about feeling bad about one's body, something that MANY people feel. Fat people wanting to be thin, thin people wanting bigger tits, pudgy guys wanting to be more buff, buff guys wanting to be even more buff, thin women wanting to be thinner, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Body image can seriously hamper one's "business of enjoying life", and none of these people DESERVE to feel miserable, which was what the OP implied.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Frank.


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## superodalisque (Jan 29, 2011)

frankman said:


> Silly silly Super-O. It wasn't about being fat, it was about feeling bad about one's body, something that MANY people feel. Fat people wanting to be thin, thin people wanting bigger tits, pudgy guys wanting to be more buff, buff guys wanting to be even more buff, thin women wanting to be thinner, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Body image can seriously hamper one's "business of enjoying life", and none of these people DESERVE to feel miserable, which was what the OP implied.
> 
> ...



its not about ordering anyone to cheer up. its about pretending its okay for someone to hate themselves. it flows over just body image. its not just about worrying about being perfect. its about loving yourself and taking steps and making a real concerted effort not to find ways or reasons to hate yourself for no good reason. its about not torturing other people with things you feel which are unreasonable that go way beyond having an occasional bad hair day or a day of feeling puffy or out of it. its about a practice in daily misery that focuses someone on what is "wrong" with them. its about having a self centered fixation on your exterior that leads you not to care about the feelings of others.

if feelings about fat is nobody's business then why come to post on a forum about fat and the feelings around that? its only nobody's business if the "nobody" happens to disagree with what has been done or said. before that time it was fine for everybody to know ALL of their business. if its really nobody's business why not keep it to themselves anyway?

nobody gets a big workout over here. its nobody's business and the outcomes are nobody's responsibility either. i guess that nobody is getting even more depressed over all of the pity parties and negative small minded attacks either.


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## frankman (Jan 29, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> its not about ordering anyone to cheer up. its about pretending its okay for someone to hate themselves. it flows over just body image. its not just about worrying about being perfect. its about loving yourself and taking steps and making a real concerted effort not to find ways or reasons to hate yourself for no good reason. its about not torturing other people with things you feel which are unreasonable that go way beyond having an occasional bad hair day or a day of feeling puffy or out of it. its about a practice in daily misery that focuses someone on what is "wrong" with them. its about having a self centered fixation on your exterior that leads you not to care about the feelings of others.
> 
> if feelings about fat is nobody's business then why come to post on a forum about fat and the feelings around that? its only nobody's business if the "nobody" happens to disagree with what has been done or said. before that time it was fine for everybody to know ALL of their business. if its really nobody's business why not keep it to themselves anyway?
> 
> nobody gets a big workout over here. its nobody's business and the outcomes are nobody's responsibility either. i guess that nobody is getting even more depressed over all of the pity parties and negative small minded attacks either.



Well, I thought long and hard about it... 

View attachment postwreck.JPG


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## superodalisque (Jan 29, 2011)

frankman said:


> Well, I thought long and hard about it...



rub your temples like Kreskin used to. that should help 

View attachment large_3-25kreskin.jpg


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 31, 2011)

I hate to revive this topic...

But I'm obviously kind of torn about how I feel about this subject, which is why I said I was wrong on the last page.

That wasn't sarcasm, I genuinely thought that this whole thread, and my opinions on the subject, were a mistake...

But I still kind of feel like I did when I wrote the first post, too.

So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't disrespect or hate anyone with a real mental disorder, but I also don't think we should care about people who choose to hate themselves (and other fat people - or other people they consider "ugly" by association) instead of seeking treatment or at least TRYING to develop a different self-image.

And I _definitely_ don't think we should focus any attention on what the media says about fat people... But as I think Paquito was implying, that's only valid in a vacuum, since so many other people judge us by media portrayals that I guess it makes sense to get angry about what they're saying, in a way.

TBH, I was just never able to wrap my mind around why so many perfectly fine people choose to hate themselves for not conforming to the standards, instead of accepting, or even *celebrating* themselves for that. The idea is alien to me.

As SuperO said, everyone has body image issues, bad hair days, and times when they don't feel that attractive - but I just never got why so many people hate themselves for their physical characteristics - even when the media's telling them to.

As a young black male who _also_ used to be fat (and I'm trying to gain it back as I don't like being thin), I'm far too used to "the media" - as well as a lot of people I know IRL, telling me exactly how I 'should be" dressing, acting, and thinking of myself - to the point where I've started actively rebelling against it and started to think anyone who actually believes in that kind of shit is stupid. 

And maybe I'm just expecting other people to think the way I do, no matter how they were brought up. So yeah, that is irrational.


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## olwen (Jan 31, 2011)

And not for nothing 77, but you're not a woman. Girls are brought up from childhood to conform to body standards that are nearly impossible to ignore. Hair should be long and straight even if it isn't like that naturally, body should be slim, unless you're black in which case, you better have a good booty too. Shave all your body hair, wear all the right clothes, ignore your own sexuality and needs, but you should like sex, but not too much otherwise you're a slut. Watch this commercial that tells you your vajayjay shouldn't have a smell, your face shouldn't have wrinkles, appear young and pretty always. Read this ad in the newspaper, in a magazine, online that says that since you aren't perfect you need this product to attain perfection, on an on and on. For a lifetime we hear and see, and internalize these messages to some degree. Given all that it isn't difficult to understand why any woman would feel self conscious about her appearance or would want to be as far away from the moral failure of ugliness as possible. It just takes a certain kind of person (one who is truly comfortable with who they are) to rise above all that and some people can, but those people are in the minority, most probably hover in the middle somewhere. Surely at some point in your life you were one of those people who wasn't so comfortable with who they were, so do try to understand. Do you have to have patience for it? No. Do I wish they had the ability to say "fuck you, I do what I want" to society? Yes, but I get where they are coming from. And there was time when it made me extremely angry that so many people worried about this stuff and that they expected me to worry about it too, but now, I know I can't worry too much about what other people are doing. It's just exhausting to try.


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## frankman (Jan 31, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I hate to revive this topic...
> 
> But I'm obviously kind of torn about how I feel about this subject, which is why I said I was wrong on the last page.
> 
> ...



Dude, I see what you're trying to say, I really do, but you keep fumbling and generalizing and frankly it doesn't make it any better.

Let's just leave it at that, but before we do I do want to give you these quick few remarks:

- Seeking help is one of the hardest things to do ever. I had a brief stint of going to a psychiatrist when I almost died under ice, and let me tell you: no matter what the reason people have to visit psychiatrists/grief counsellors/psychologists/mental health inspectors/whatever, it's sort of shamey, even when it's really not. There's all these assumptions, at least there were for me, that people might think I'm fucked up, might think less of me, and then there was the huge question of what if I really turned out to be unsolvably mentally ill? What if I had to take medication for the rest of my life?

All these things can go through your mind the moment you consider seeking mental help. Opening up to people is not easy. I can only imagine it's the same for when you feel sort of depressed about your body image.

- Don't trivialize it. Super-O called it the equivalent of a bad hair day. That is NOT the same thing. If someone is feeling uncertain about his- or herself, that's EVERY day. It's not the same as feeling unattractive in the wrong pair of trousers, or feeling underdressed at a party. It's all the time.

You called it a choice. It isn't. There is no good explanation for why people feel the way they feel. Be supportive and be kind, and don't think people choose to feel that way; even the ones that hide it under layer upon layer of humor, snark and self-mockery can be patently unhappy.

- Don't think you can judge. You can step away, you can choose not to be with someone with issues, but never think you can decide how that person feels, or how serious something is for someone. Things that aren't mental diseases can still ruin a person's life. Even if it shouldn't in your opinion.

- Media works. If it didn't, they'd be out of business. The fact you don't buy into it is great, but you're not the majority here. plus, even when you don't believe, you still have to deal with a whole lot of stupid who do.


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## luscious_lulu (Jan 31, 2011)

Someone please rep frankman for me. 

What he said was so spot on. Beautifully said!


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## Dr. Feelgood (Jan 31, 2011)

Got him for you!


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## That Guy You Met Once (Jan 31, 2011)

I did too.


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## superodalisque (Feb 1, 2011)

frankman said:


> - Don't trivialize it. Super-O called it the equivalent of a bad hair day. That is NOT the same thing. If someone is feeling uncertain about his- or herself, that's EVERY day. It's not the same as feeling unattractive in the wrong pair of trousers, or feeling underdressed at a party. It's all the time.
> 
> .



please don't totally mischaraterize what i said. i never said it was like a bad hair day AT ALL. i said it was waaay beyond a bad day or the norml feelings most people have of self doubt. thats why focus on hating your own body on a daily basis is a psychologically horrible thing for someone to live with. people were talking as if hating yourself was not such a big deal. its a huge deal. exactly what i said was:

 its about not torturing other people with things you feel which are unreasonable that go way beyond having an occasional bad hair day or a day of feeling puffy or out of it. its about a practice in daily misery that focuses someone on what is "wrong" with them. its about having a self centered fixation on your exterior that leads you not to care about the feelings of others.

what people were saying earlier about it being perfectly normal to hate yourself fat because of brainwashing by the media etc... is just plain wrong. lots of people are exposed to the same media and don't take everything it says to be so important in their lives. if a person does they do need help adjusting the the reality of life. thats not a bad thing, just an honest thing. 

what i am totally against is when people pretend its okay to feel so horrible about yourself just for being fat. its not normal to feel so bad about yourself just for that all of the time. that IS a problem. that IS something well worth getting control of. thats something to seek help for. your real friends will tell you the truth. that you are a beautiful person and you shouldn't torture yourself so much and that just like a lot of people you might not be able to get where you need to get all alone. but telling them its perfectly normal to feel hatred for their body and their looks isn't right, makes no sense and is helping them to damage themselves further.

people who tell fat people that its perfectly understandable that they feel ugly all of the time are NOT really their friends even if they think they are. they are just other people who've bought into the prejudice just as much as any stranger to fat. they are perpetuators and are no different than the people who produce all of the shows with all of the fat people crying and miserable because its expected. saying that we should be expected to be miserable just because we are fat creates an environment where people WILL fixate on the negative more than they should have to or need to, especially when you're talking about someone interested in changing their attitude. 

a change in attitude is partially about practice. even therapeutically speaking it has to be worked at. drugs are just a quick fix that numbs people temporarily to some emotional pain that might be overwhelming while they work on things. if folks really want to make a real and positive change in how they view themselves and each other they have to work at feeling good about themselves. its a big challenge. its not easy. but they have to practice that more than they do being habitually miserable. you can't just depend on drugs to fix everything alone. if you ever stop taking them the problems will still be there. if a person truly hate their body the way that it is they must look seriously into changing it for their own sake and face the fact that emotionally they might not be cut out to be fat. thats okay too.

i think any fat person who hates their body is lucky to have a friend who doesn't see why they should. they should be happy that person gets frustrated with them sometimes. that means they are truly passionate about the idea that a fat person they care about are comfortable and happy in their own skin. its much better than the person who loves to keep a fat person down because its easier to control or abuse them if they can keep them feeling ugly and unattractive all of the time.


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## Heyyou (Feb 1, 2011)

Tends to be low self-esteem, those that dont like their looks.

Am i wrong?


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## butch (Feb 2, 2011)

You are right in many respects, superodalisque, but two things jumped out at me that I think are too generalized or not quite accurate in your post. First, for many of us, it isn't just the media, it is our family, our classmates, our teachers, and even strangers who are telling us that we are not OK the way we are, and we have to lose weight. Unlike other minoritized identities, there isn't a whole and vibrant community of people who say the opposite to societies mantra that fat is bad (especially if you are a child), so where is the fat person expected to go to get affirmation that they are good just the way they are, if that message is presented to them in stereo and by 90% of the population? The current fat community is so small, so scattered, and mostly online, and so it pales in comparison to, say, the GLBTQ community, or the disability community. A person has to be pretty damn strong, emotionally, to withstand that from an early age, and I think it is more than fair to recognize that this is a tall order for people to accomplish.

Also, the process you describe of working towards a positive outlook is exactly that, a process, and it happens much more slowly than your posts seem to suggest. I don't think people are saying that folks should stay mired in a self-hating attitude, but they are acknowledging that the journey from self-hatred to self-love, in an overwhelminlgy fat-hating society, is long and arduous. It took me a damn long time to do it myself, and part of the reason for that is because my own trust was damaged from childhood because I had two fat parents who instilled in me the idea that fat was the worst thing that could ever happen to me. I assumed everyone else felt the same, which meant I kept my feelings about my size to myself, and let them fester. I think maturity, more than anything else, allowed me to begin to trust others.

Finally, while it may not be true for most, it is true for some: to assume that all fat people have a friend or friends who think they're beautiful and wonderful just the way they are is presumptious. Many of us fighting the depression that comes along with self-hatred and low self esteem have few, if any, close friends, and many others of us have friends who are so insecure themselves that they don't think that we're beautiful and wonderful at our current size. Again, it is a long journey for many of us, and so compassion as well as inspiration goes a long way in helping a fat person turn into the self-loving person they deserve to be.


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## LordQuas (Feb 2, 2011)

I dont understand why people are criticizing the OP for the fact that this thread likely stems from a personal experience. Opinions usually come from some sort of personal experience.

Anywho, I have been accused of being insensitive on this topic many times because I don't have much if any sympathy for those who let things like popular opinion significantly affect how they feel about themselves. I was teased mercilessly for the vast majority of my school like for my appearance and not fitting neatly into the stereotype of a young black male. I got over it by realizing that most people just simply dont have any affect on my life outside of what I allow them to have. The obsession with mass media in the Western world is completely out of control and people need to learn to separate reality from what is being presented to us as reality. And Im sure someone is going to lambaste me for comparing race to being overweight but oh well, such is life.


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## LordQuas (Feb 2, 2011)

After reading the thread I really wish I hadnt posted


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## Paquito (Feb 2, 2011)

butch said:


> You are right in many respects, superodalisque, but two things jumped out at me that I think are too generalized or not quite accurate in your post. First, for many of us, it isn't just the media, it is our family, our classmates, our teachers, and even strangers who are telling us that we are not OK the way we are, and we have to lose weight. Unlike other minoritized identities, there isn't a whole and vibrant community of people who say the opposite to societies mantra that fat is bad (especially if you are a child), so where is the fat person expected to go to get affirmation that they are good just the way they are, if that message is presented to them in stereo and by 90% of the population? The current fat community is so small, so scattered, and mostly online, and so it pales in comparison to, say, the GLBTQ community, or the disability community. A person has to be pretty damn strong, emotionally, to withstand that from an early age, and I think it is more than fair to recognize that this is a tall order for people to accomplish.
> 
> Also, the process you describe of working towards a positive outlook is exactly that, a process, and it happens much more slowly than your posts seem to suggest. I don't think people are saying that folks should stay mired in a self-hating attitude, but they are acknowledging that the journey from self-hatred to self-love, in an overwhelminlgy fat-hating society, is long and arduous. It took me a damn long time to do it myself, and part of the reason for that is because my own trust was damaged from childhood because I had two fat parents who instilled in me the idea that fat was the worst thing that could ever happen to me. I assumed everyone else felt the same, which meant I kept my feelings about my size to myself, and let them fester. I think maturity, more than anything else, allowed me to begin to trust others.
> 
> Finally, while it may not be true for most, it is true for some: to assume that all fat people have a friend or friends who think they're beautiful and wonderful just the way they are is presumptious. Many of us fighting the depression that comes along with self-hatred and low self esteem have few, if any, close friends, and many others of us have friends who are so insecure themselves that they don't think that we're beautiful and wonderful at our current size. Again, it is a long journey for many of us, and so compassion as well as inspiration goes a long way in helping a fat person turn into the self-loving person they deserve to be.



Thread won.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 2, 2011)

LordQuas said:


> After reading the thread I really wish I hadnt posted



How come?

Also, The Unseen was one of the best albums ever.


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## luscious_lulu (Feb 2, 2011)

Paquito said:


> Thread won.



Agreed!
........


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 2, 2011)

Paquito said:


> Thread won.



Yeah, basically.

Now could we stop arguing?


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## LoveBHMS (Feb 2, 2011)

Late to the party here, but wanted to chime in. The way I read the OP's thoughts were that he was saying outward physical appearance doesn't matter and that caring about it too much is wrong. I think that's just his values. It's not different from being super un-materialistic and saying you're not going to admire somebody whose made a lot of money or who owns a lot of status symbols. If you think it's shallow and superficial to be brand/status conscious you probably won't want to indulge somebody who wants to brag about a pair of designer shoes.

It's ironic that some guys get grief for whining about fat women not wearing the right kinds of clothing and this dude gets grief for saying he doesn't care how somebody looks.


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## Dromond (Feb 2, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> Yeah, basically.
> 
> Now could we stop arguing?



You might want to ask a mod to lock the thread.


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## mossystate (Feb 2, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> Yeah, basically.
> 
> Now could we stop arguing?



Thing is, people have the right to continue conversation sometimes long after some other people ( you...me...her...him...them ) might feel it ' should ' have a fork stuck in it. You could always just leave the thread. 

No reason for this thread to be locked. I see some folks engaging and debating in a reasonable manner.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 2, 2011)

It doesn't need to be locked at all, I'd just like people to acknowledge that we've come to an agreement and there's no need to keep debating if I was right or wrong in the first post.


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## superodalisque (Feb 2, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> It doesn't need to be locked at all, I'd just like people to acknowledge that we've come to an agreement and there's no need to keep debating if I was right or wrong in the first post.



why does it always have such a big fight just because people have a different viewpoint? the tiresome thing about all of this is how much an affront people take it as if someone disagrees with them. people need to be more adult about having different viewpoints.


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## superodalisque (Feb 2, 2011)

butch said:


> You are right in many respects, superodalisque, but two things jumped out at me that I think are too generalized or not quite accurate in your post. First, for many of us, it isn't just the media, it is our family, our classmates, our teachers, and even strangers who are telling us that we are not OK the way we are, and we have to lose weight. Unlike other minoritized identities, there isn't a whole and vibrant community of people who say the opposite to societies mantra that fat is bad (especially if you are a child), so where is the fat person expected to go to get affirmation that they are good just the way they are, if that message is presented to them in stereo and by 90% of the population? The current fat community is so small, so scattered, and mostly online, and so it pales in comparison to, say, the GLBTQ community, or the disability community. A person has to be pretty damn strong, emotionally, to withstand that from an early age, and I think it is more than fair to recognize that this is a tall order for people to accomplish.
> 
> Also, the process you describe of working towards a positive outlook is exactly that, a process, and it happens much more slowly than your posts seem to suggest. I don't think people are saying that folks should stay mired in a self-hating attitude, but they are acknowledging that the journey from self-hatred to self-love, in an overwhelminlgy fat-hating society, is long and arduous. It took me a damn long time to do it myself, and part of the reason for that is because my own trust was damaged from childhood because I had two fat parents who instilled in me the idea that fat was the worst thing that could ever happen to me. I assumed everyone else felt the same, which meant I kept my feelings about my size to myself, and let them fester. I think maturity, more than anything else, allowed me to begin to trust others.
> 
> Finally, while it may not be true for most, it is true for some: to assume that all fat people have a friend or friends who think they're beautiful and wonderful just the way they are is presumptious. Many of us fighting the depression that comes along with self-hatred and low self esteem have few, if any, close friends, and many others of us have friends who are so insecure themselves that they don't think that we're beautiful and wonderful at our current size. Again, it is a long journey for many of us, and so compassion as well as inspiration goes a long way in helping a fat person turn into the self-loving person they deserve to be.



i can relate to what you have to say to some extent. but i don't find that 90% of people are fat hating. thats not my personal experience. i hardly ever have any real issues with people over my being fat. i've found more sizeism in the community than i ever did out in the general public living my life. so, i come from a different reality. i find people respond more to how i treat them and care for them than what i look like. i doubt that having negative expectations about folks before i gave then a chance would net me as many positive relationships with people who are smaller than i am.

i agree that its a process too. i know things may be gradual for some people but many years is sometimes too gradual when you think of how short our time on this earth is especially when you're talking about people who do have lots of support lots of outlets and a huge community to be a part of. yes, the active fat community is relatively small but there are still plenty of us to give positive support to those who want it. thats another reason we need to be so careful not to mirror the rest of society in ways that makes us look like we believe in the exact same prejudices they do. people are looking to the community for that difference. they are looking to us for the alternative to the prejudice. by nearly always focusing on the bad aspects of being fat rather than celebrating it, we who should be the most capable, are not providing people with enough positive alternatives anywhere close to as much as we should.

as people complain about here, there are plenty of t.v. shows agreeing sympathetically that its tough to be fat and showing how a lot of people get hated for being fat out there and how much they are at odds with their own bodies. i think the best therapy for fat people having problems is for someone to be able to say that it doesn't have to be bad and that you are beautiful and trying to exemplify that. how many of us nearly get physically ill watching all of the miserable fat girls crying copiously on shows like "the bachelor"? where do you think that stereotype perpetuated by the media comes from? we do have something to do with it because we are always showing the down trodden face.

if the fact that others of our type feel well and happy is more depressing than inspirational thats pretty telling about how someone's mind is working. thats something beyond the usual human self doubt. the op is right about that for sure. if someone would rather see other people sad and they feel happier that way, if they somehow feel hurt or bad because people just like them can be happy and feel worthwhile--well i don't understand how that can be a good or desirable thing by any stretch of the imagination.

people try and show and tell fat people they are beautiful everyday. its often ignored, not seen and not believed. and even when someone expresses the frustration over that we still can't manage to see the real appreciation behind it that causes the frustration.

why do some movements succeed while others do not? because some movements, though they come out of negative situations, depend mainly on a positive message. black is beautiful! i am somebody! i am a human being! we shall overcome! those were the things that made a real change for people. if you think those people never had ugly prejudices to overcome you're totally wrong. if you think they never got depressed you'd be totally wrong. repeating mantras like : everybody hates me nobody thinks fat people are beautiful or things will never change my body is ugly no wonder some people find it so hard to be fat and always will.


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## Dromond (Feb 3, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> why does it always have such a big fight just because people have a different viewpoint? the tiresome thing about all of this is how much an affront people take it as if someone disagrees with them. people need to be more adult about having different viewpoints.



What's tiresome is when a thread devolves into circular arguing. When you get to the point where you are going over the same ground repeatedly, there is no value left to the discussion.


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## luscious_lulu (Feb 3, 2011)

Dromond said:


> What's tiresome is when a thread devolves into circular arguing. When you get to the point where you are going over the same ground repeatedly, there is no value left to the discussion.



I believe the phrase you are looking for is "beating a dead horse".


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## Gingembre (Feb 3, 2011)

Butch - Thank you for a great post which I found very relatable and reassuring. Fully in agreement, as someone who is fairly near the beginning of 'the process'. Some rep coming your way!



superodalisque said:


> i can relate to what you have to say to some extent. but i don't find that 90% of people are fat hating. thats not my personal experience. i hardly ever have any real issues with people over my being fat. i've found more sizeism in the community than i ever did out in the general public living my life. so, i come from a different reality.


 
That's great - I want to live where you live! I'm pleased that that is your reality but it is important to bear in mind (not just you, supero, i mean, generally speaking) this isn't a lot of people's reality. I'm in the UK, brought up and currently living in a typical middleclass town in the south, but spent 3 years at uni living in the (poorer/fatter) north east. By Dims standards, I'm not that big, UK size 16 top and 20 bottom (I have been a couple of sizes thinner than this and a couple of sizes bigger) BUT...
- i have berated about my weight by my mum/dad/grandma/other grandma/aunty/mum's friends/teachers/doctors and had a couple of my friends express concern for my health
- i have been shouted out in the street at least 10 times
- i was the fattest girl bar one at my high school, of over 1500 students
- i have been the fattest person at every job i've had, except now where I am the fattest female bar tender (there's 2 girls about size/bigger who work in the kitchen and other members of the team, including managers, describe big ppl as 'kitchen fat'. They tried to make me work in the kitchen when they interviewed me but i refused. Obviously they didn't say it was down to my size but i think it was).
- i have never spoken at length offline with/had a friend who was as big as me
- i was the fattest person on my degree programme
- i was the fattest person in my halls of residence
- i was the fattest person i ever saw on campus. Not in the city generally, but I very rarely saw ppl my age as big as me.

And i'm not even _that_ fat.

That is my reality.




> i agree that its a process too. i know things may be gradual for some people but many years is sometimes too gradual when you think of how short our time on this earth is



Well, yes that's true, i suppose, and something I myself should try and keep in mind.


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## mossystate (Feb 3, 2011)

Dromond said:


> What's tiresome is when a thread devolves into circular arguing. When you get to the point where you are going over the same ground repeatedly, there is no value left to the discussion.



Wait, this is HP? There is always...always...the option of unsubscribing, not posting. None of us ( none ) will ever post in a way that is approved by everyone reading. Now, as I am doing what you are doing right now, I will tiptoe out...unless I read something that demands my input.


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## snuggletiger (Feb 3, 2011)

Actually its on the main board


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## superodalisque (Feb 3, 2011)

Gingembre said:


> Butch - Thank you for a great post which I found very relatable and reassuring. Fully in agreement, as someone who is fairly near the beginning of 'the process'. Some rep coming your way!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yeah the UK is tough. i know i was accosted in London by a woman on the street. she actually grabbed me and said something about my size. it didn't make me angry so much as sad and pitying. she was a drunk old toss stumbling down the street and drooling in the middle of the day and totally at a loss when it came to self control. i never felt it had anything to do with anything that was really wrong with me. she just wanted someone else to feel as bad as she already did and thought referencing my fat would get her company in her misery.

i'm generally not the fattest person where i go even though i'm a super. and, i'm definitely not the only one. i live in the south of the US and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting really big fat folk. sure, people are prejudiced to some extent. but i guess there are so many of us people would get exhausted pointing us out all of the time. i respect where you're coming from but tg its not everywhere and every situation. maybe you should take a vacation and escape so much intense negative attention all of the time. it can be really freeing.

i was in a similar situation when i went to Africa back in the early 80's. this place was still so very racist about nearly everything. so i was able to travel to a place where nearly everyone looks like me or a relative of mine. it was the total opposite of the US. the minority was the majority. people who weren't like me were self conscious. i felt relaxed. no one stared. no one judged. it was life changing. so finding a place for a good fatism rest would probably be like i felt having a good racism rest.


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## Gingembre (Feb 3, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> i was in a similar situation when i went to Africa back in the early 80's. .



Funny you say this...I might be off to Ghana for a few months. At least the fact I'm very pale and ginger might be more of a 'thing' than my fat...a change is as good as a rest! LOL


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## mithrandirjn (Feb 3, 2011)

Maybe this was addressed and I missed it, but I initially took the OP to be about dealing with people who have low self-esteem about their looks, and how exasperating it can be when you feel like you have to convince them that, yes, you think they're good looking.

That may be me superimposing my own experiences on it, though. I know I can speak from real life that, when dating girls I've known of varying sizes/appearances/etc., I've run into cases where I might compliment her, or do whatever, and she won't take a compliment and will look for what's wrong with herself. There are undoubtedly guys who do the same exact thing.

That, I feel, isn't a fat issue, that's just self-esteem. There are countless people out there who think a compliment is somebody humoring them, who can't accept that maybe somebody genuinely does find them attractive.

Dealing with people like that is tough, and it's hard to stay with them very long, I find. If the other person can't be happy with his/her self, then it's likely a situation where the other party isn't going to be happy much of the time, either.


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## mossystate (Feb 3, 2011)

mithrandirjn said:


> Dealing with people like that is tough, and it's hard to stay with them very long, I find. If the other person can't be happy with his/her self, then it's likely a situation where the other party isn't going to be happy much of the time, either.



Yup.

And I would actually do more questioning of the people who are so miserable with their partners' unhappiness with themselves, but stay and complain over and over and over. Who is really the reason for your being miserable......you ( general you ). It's usually a really fucked up dance, once it passes a certain amount of time, or lack of acknowledging/working on things.


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## superodalisque (Feb 3, 2011)

Gingembre said:


> Funny you say this...I might be off to Ghana for a few months. At least the fact I'm very pale and ginger might be more of a 'thing' than my fat...a change is as good as a rest! LOL



thats where i was! i love the place. have fun!


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## superodalisque (Feb 3, 2011)

mithrandirjn said:


> Maybe this was addressed and I missed it, but I initially took the OP to be about dealing with people who have low self-esteem about their looks, and how exasperating it can be when you feel like you have to convince them that, yes, you think they're good looking.
> 
> That may be me superimposing my own experiences on it, though. I know I can speak from real life that, when dating girls I've known of varying sizes/appearances/etc., I've run into cases where I might compliment her, or do whatever, and she won't take a compliment and will look for what's wrong with herself. There are undoubtedly guys who do the same exact thing.
> 
> ...



yes. thats pretty much it in a nutshell. that focus does have little or nothing to do with being fat. its more about the individual personality and focus on life.


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## frankman (Feb 4, 2011)

mithrandirjn said:


> Maybe this was addressed and I missed it, but I initially took the OP to be about dealing with people who have low self-esteem about their looks, and how exasperating it can be when you feel like you have to convince them that, yes, you think they're good looking.
> 
> That may be me superimposing my own experiences on it, though. I know I can speak from real life that, when dating girls I've known of varying sizes/appearances/etc., I've run into cases where I might compliment her, or do whatever, and she won't take a compliment and will look for what's wrong with herself. There are undoubtedly guys who do the same exact thing.
> 
> ...



I think this is an excellent way of formulating the problem. I think that if this had been the OP, there wouldn't have been much of a discussion.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 4, 2011)

Why in the world would someone torture themselves staying in a relationship with someone who hates themselves so much for so long? I'm not talking about degrees or periods of dissatisfaction either. Most of us have them. But to stay with someone when both of you are miserable says as much about you as it does about them. 

If you don't like it--wish them well and move on rather than bitch and moan about it. Move on with your life and stop whining otherwise it's nothing more than a neurotic hobby.


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## frankman (Feb 4, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Why in the world would someone torture themselves staying in a relationship with someone who hates themselves so much for so long? I'm not talking about degrees or periods of dissatisfaction either. Most of us have them. But to stay with someone when both of you are miserable says as much about you as it does about them.
> 
> If you don't like it--wish them well and move on rather than bitch and moan about it. Move on with your life and stop whining otherwise it's nothing more than a neurotic hobby.



Well, it's HP baby; we piss vinegar and sweat pointless hypotheticals.

Some of us hate marriage, too.


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## mithrandirjn (Feb 4, 2011)

CastingPearls said:


> Why in the world would someone torture themselves staying in a relationship with someone who hates themselves so much for so long? I'm not talking about degrees or periods of dissatisfaction either. Most of us have them. But to stay with someone when both of you are miserable says as much about you as it does about them.
> 
> If you don't like it--wish them well and move on rather than bitch and moan about it. Move on with your life and stop whining otherwise it's nothing more than a neurotic hobby.



It's sad, but it's not uncommon, no matter what age set one might look at. 

There are tons of cases where people seem to stay together either just because they're used to each other, or because they're afraid of being single, or they can't imagine anyone treating them any better, and thus they put up with behaviors that should probably be relationship-breaking. Then these people wonder why the divorce rate in this country is so high.

It all goes back to self esteem. If a person can maintain a positive image of his or her self, it makes it easier for them to say "I'm not satisfied with this current relationship, so I'm going to move on." Go negative, and I think that fear of being single takes over.


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## frankman (Feb 5, 2011)

mithrandirjn said:


> It's sad, but it's not uncommon, no matter what age set one might look at.
> 
> There are tons of cases where people seem to stay together either just because they're used to each other, or because they're afraid of being single, or they can't imagine anyone treating them any better, and thus they put up with behaviors that should probably be relationship-breaking. Then these people wonder why the divorce rate in this country is so high.



Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think people should be getting married just because they're used to eachother. I think it's a dumb move to take any troubled relationship to a next level when you've not yet fixed major problems (which can even turn out to be unfixable). In my perfect world, these people would have nothing to do with divorce rates, but that's just me of course.



> It all goes back to self esteem. If a person can maintain a positive image of his or her self, it makes it easier for them to say "I'm not satisfied with this current relationship, so I'm going to move on." Go negative, and I think that fear of being single takes over.



I don't think it's the fear of being single, it's the fear of ending up alone. That might sound the same, but it's not. Everybody enjoys being single for some time, everyone. The amount of time differs per person. But what if you're done with being single? It's a hassle finding that right person, maybe it's a hassle just finding the courage to date again, or letting your guard down for new people. I have absolutely no problems with my self esteem, but I hate dating. I'm not very good at coming on to people, and if it weren't for the fact that I know there are plenty of people out there for anyone, even ones that don't care if I don't get the first 100 hints, I'd be a lot more careful with ending relationships (not that I'm cavaleer with them now). Because it's a grim realization, knowing that if it were solely up to me, I'd end up alone. So why am I not worried? Because I know that in the end it's not solely up to me. I have a little faith in the rest of the world. Now I don't know if that has to do with self esteem, but I can see how not having that could make people stay in relationships that are less than desirable, just because the trouble of going through all that stuff again for a second, third or whatever try at love is even less desirable. So yeah, I kind of agree, I think.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Feb 5, 2011)

mithrandirjn said:


> There are tons of cases where people seem to stay together either just because they're used to each other, or because they're afraid of being single, or they can't imagine anyone treating them any better, and thus they put up with behaviors that should probably be relationship-breaking. that fear of being single takes over.





frankman said:


> I don't think it's the fear of being single, it's the fear of ending up alone.QUOTE]
> 
> I think it's the comfort of finding someone whose neuroses mesh with yours.


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## frankman (Feb 5, 2011)

Dr. Feelgood said:


> I think it's the comfort of finding someone whose neuroses mesh with yours.



I think there is certainly comfort in finding someone with whom your neuroses mesh.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 6, 2011)

To answer your hypothetical question - In my case, it was because I liked (almost) everything else about her except her instability and almost nonexistent self-esteem (and all the drama that went with them).

Even now (after we got over the not-talking-to-each-other phase, of course) that's still true.


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## superodalisque (Feb 7, 2011)

there's no comfort in staying with someone who makes life a drag


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 7, 2011)

Not sure if that was directed at me or Frankman, but I'm not anymore.

We're still friends, though.

As a side note, I met another girl who's very attractive, has a lot of the same interests as me, and who I would ask out in a minute... If I didn't overhear her saying to a friend that, at 170 pounds, she's thinks she's way too fat.


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## Saoirse (Feb 8, 2011)

You focus too much on weight.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 8, 2011)

You must have missed the several pages of advice not to date girls who hate being fat.


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## Saoirse (Feb 8, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> You must have missed the several pages of advice not to date girls who hate being fat.



you must have missed the fact that all women will find something about their bodies that they aren't too happy with. It could be their weight, their hair, their skin, their ass, their legs, their arms, their eye color... it can and will be anything.

So stop fucking looking for that perfect fat chick who thinks everything is just fucking awesome.


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## AmazingAmy (Feb 8, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> Not sure if that was directed at me or Frankman, but I'm not anymore.
> 
> We're still friends, though.
> 
> As a side note, I met another girl who's very attractive, has a lot of the same interests as me, and who I would ask out in a minute... If I didn't overhear her saying to a friend that, at 170 pounds, she's thinks she's way too fat.



I know you're saying you don't want to have to put up with insecurity, but don't dismiss this chick for saying something like that. Girls just mention stuff like that then forget it, it doesn't mean they're going to be an insufferable handful.

Just let people have a bad day, ffs. No one's perfect.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm not looking for a perfect partner with no body image issues (as I've said like 4 times, everyone has them) just one who doesn't think being chubby sucks.


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## Sasquatch! (Feb 8, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I'm not looking for a perfect partner with no body image issues (as I've said like 4 times, everyone has them) just one who doesn't think being chubby sucks.



Then don't date them. Simples.


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## superodalisque (Feb 8, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> you must have missed the fact that all women will find something about their bodies that they aren't too happy with. It could be their weight, their hair, their skin, their ass, their legs, their arms, their eye color... it can and will be anything.
> 
> So stop fucking looking for that perfect fat chick who thinks everything is just fucking awesome.



not all women will fixate on body parts and magnify it into their entire self worth. unfortunately too many will but tg not all. and the ones who do need to admit that way of looking at themselves is dysfunctional and finally wake up.


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## Saoirse (Feb 8, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> not all women will fixate on body parts and magnify it into their self worth. unfortunately too many will but tg not all. and the ones who do need to admit that way of looking at themselves is dysfunctional and finally wake up.



i didnt mean only body parts, although those were the only ones i mentioned. everyone has something about them that they dont like. its just a fact of life.

and its not dysfunctional. saying that is very narrow-minded.


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## superodalisque (Feb 8, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> i didnt mean only body parts, although those were the only ones i mentioned. everyone has something about them that they dont like. its just a fact of life.
> 
> and its not dysfunctional. saying that is very narrow-minded.



a lot of women have normalized hating themselves so much and have taken in their total sexualization so much that they don't even realize they are living out a dysfunction.


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## Saoirse (Feb 8, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> a lot of women have normalized hating themselves so much and have taken in their total sexualization so much that they don't even realize they are living out a dysfunction.



i think finding fault with some part of you is healthy. makes you realize you need to make a change and work hard at it.


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## mossystate (Feb 8, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> As a side note, I met another girl who's very attractive, has a lot of the same interests as me, and who I would ask out in a minute... If I didn't overhear her saying to a friend that, at 170 pounds, she's thinks she's way too fat.



Since we have seen how you fed on a really dysfunctional ( yeah, an overused term ) dynamic with another girl, and for a long period of time, you might be a little too focused on the weight thing......and for your own comfort. Yes, sometimes people are drawn to others, and the struggles of others, who allow them to deflect from their own stuff. I know you have a physical preference, but this just screams ' more ', to me. Oh, and, with this last dream girl.......in your head, don't make her wrong for not wanting to be X number of pounds. Just move along and say to yourself, " oh, just not for me ". None of this is just about body image issues.....no matter how popular that ' go to ' is out here.


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## blueeyedevie (Feb 8, 2011)

> If looking good is your life, you deserve never to feel like you look good enough.
> 
> Also, fat people (among others) don't need to be constantly reminded that they're beautiful or fed compliments, because beauty - especially how most people define it - ain't that big a deal.



Am I completely off my rocker to think that this statement is crazy. Why do fat people not need compliments? This is actually a big problem in my life, right now. I have always been told I was beautiful, and made to feel "special", daily in till recently. 
I have had very low self esteem and very high self esteem over the course of my life. I never wore much make-up, never had name brand clothes , and tried to act if none of that bothered me. When your very young that is hard to do, but can be accomplished.
Now that I am older, I feel like I take a bit more time to "LOOK PRETTY" ( finding my beauty was hard and now that I have I like to enjoy it). I don't really need compliments 24/7 but an occasional you look nice is so appreciated. I don't feel like looking a certain way is my life but , I do feel making an effort to be beautiful is certainly part of my life. No matter where- or-not your beautiful inside or out or neither everyone deserves to hear that they look nice at some point. 
Rather you like it are not in this day and age the way people define beauty does matter. It matters a great deal. Even here On Dimensions. People define beauty in many ways, and if someone doesn't fit in to a certain "beauty block" then they are ignored. Getting a job, I hate to say sometimes comes down to how you look, everywhere you go it is a problem. So yes it matters. I will say this there is two ways beauty is defined that i hate, One is if your thin your beautiful , and if your a certain weight lbs your beautiful so there fore Ill agree on one thing, Beauty isn't a big deal, when you try to fit into a certain category( that never works), but when your happy with your personal beauty and live to achieve the best you possible, meaning inside and out, then it matters a great deal.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 9, 2011)

I don't think she's inherently wrong or a bad person - I would never even go as far as to say I think she *hates* herself - I'm just kind of disappointed, that's all.


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## superodalisque (Feb 9, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> i think finding fault with some part of you is healthy. makes you realize you need to make a change and work hard at it.



only if you don't take it as far as hating all of the rest you have to offer and allowing it to overtake your entire life, ruining your relationships and lowering you into a pit of depression and self destructive behaviors. . a little healthy self criticism is great but i think what we've been talking about goes way beyond that.

also i'm not sure negative reinforcement really works all that well. instead of fault finding with oneself maybe its more relaxing for people to think of it as just making their life better instead of concentrating on how horrible something about them is? that orientation might be less likely to depress people.


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## Saoirse (Feb 9, 2011)

superodalisque said:


> only if you don't take it as far as hating all of the rest you have to offer and allowing it to overtake your entire life, ruining your relationships and lowering you into a pit of depression and self destructive behaviors. . a little healthy self criticism is great but i think what we've been talking about goes way beyond that.
> 
> also i'm not sure negative reinforcement really works all that well. instead of fault finding with oneself maybe its more relaxing for people to think of it as just making their life better instead of concentrating on how horrible something about them is? that orientation might be less likely to depress people.



Excuse me Miss Perfect, but not everyone thinks the way you do and badgering those that don't does nothing but makes you look snooty and stuck up


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## CastingPearls (Feb 9, 2011)

I think the problem is that we're not all talking about the same thing. 

Seventy-Seven would like us to believe that all women that he seems to be interested in are obsessed with their bodies.

A lot of us seem to believe that while the above does occur, for the most part there may be some dissatisfaction which is normal.

I gather from SuperO's posts that she thinks we're all making excuses for the former but most of us still are thinking its more like the latter and Seventy-Seven is just full of shit.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 9, 2011)

I never said that all women I'm interested in are obsessed with their bodies, I said that the vast majority of fat people I know don't like being fat, and that a lot of other people I know are too shallow, IMO. I thought their feeling that way was unjustified (even though I recognize now that there are a lot of societal reasons and peer pressure that makes them that way) and I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it or trying to talk them out of it anymore.


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## Saoirse (Feb 9, 2011)

Just why the hell do you care so much about other people finding fault with themselves? Bigfuckingdeal.


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## AmazingAmy (Feb 9, 2011)

Date a blow up doll. They don't get body issues.


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## Blackjack (Feb 9, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> Excuse me Miss Perfect, but not everyone thinks the way you do and badgering those that don't does nothing but makes you look snooty and stuck up





Saoirse said:


> Just why the hell do you care so much about other people finding fault with themselves? Bigfuckingdeal.





AmazingAmy said:


> Date a blow up doll. They don't get body issues.


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## luscious_lulu (Feb 9, 2011)

Bazinga! You all get rep when I'm home and not posting from my phone!



CastingPearls said:


> I think the problem is that we're not all talking about the same thing.
> 
> Seventy-Seven would like us to believe that all women that he seems to be interested in are obsessed with their bodies.
> 
> ...





Saoirse said:


> Just why the hell do you care so much about other people finding fault with themselves? Bigfuckingdeal.





AmazingAmy said:


> Date a blow up doll. They don't get body issues.


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## superodalisque (Feb 9, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> Excuse me Miss Perfect, but not everyone thinks the way you do and badgering those that don't does nothing but makes you look snooty and stuck up



i'm not perfect or snooty but its true that i am opinionated. i don't expect you to think the way that i do. i definitely wouldn't personally attack you because you have a different view point. my opinions don't invalidate yours. i don't feel yours invalidate mine either. it might help to remember that its okay for us to think differently from each other.

at my age i'm beyond caring if people think i'm stuck up. thats their issue. i already know who i am and so do the people who matter in my life.

the reason i post is because i care about the young people who come here to read who don't have much experience in life. i'd like to be a foil to the pitiful the sorrowful and the sad when it comes to fat. i come here because i think its important for people to accept that they are fat and enjoy their lives as they are. but what i don't and won't come here to do is to act as if acceptance is about hating yourself fat--because i personally think thats the opposite of what size acceptance is all about. if people really hate themselves fat i think they should seriously consider ways of losing weight and leave the people who like it alone. they need to stop making excuses about why they can't and expecting others to adopt their sad attitude towards their bodies. IMO misery loving company is not a good enough reason to sacrifice true size acceptance.


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## superodalisque (Feb 9, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I never said that all women I'm interested in are obsessed with their bodies, I said that the vast majority of fat people I know don't like being fat, and that a lot of other people I know are too shallow, IMO. I thought their feeling that way was unjustified (even though I recognize now that there are a lot of societal reasons and peer pressure that makes them that way) and I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it or trying to talk them out of it anymore.



nope you shouldn't. if someone wants to wallow in it you can't stop them anyway. there are people who get an emotional payoff. you just have to wait till they recognize it or outgrow it. unfortunately some folks never outgrow spending the majority of their time feeling sorry for themselves. for some people it might not even be the fat they say they hate so much that has all of their focus but the attention and pitying or even the sense of power they get when they act miserable that comes form thinking that no one will care about them in any other way for any other reason. a lot of people love the self righteous indignation of being negatively fat and ride it for all its worth. all you can really do is leave them alone and live your own life around people with a more positive and constructive outlook. we can't control other people anyway but we sure can control who it is we interact with and how rather than leaving ourselves open to frustration. some people just could careless about dragging other people into a deep depressive hole with them. they could care less about you. get someone who cares about how you feel and not just about how they feel all of the time.


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## That Guy You Met Once (Feb 21, 2011)

Saoirse said:


> Just why the hell do you care so much about other people finding fault with themselves? Bigfuckingdeal.



I already said I've changed my mind (a lot, actually) since I wrote that first post, and by this point I want to disown it.

But, as a side note, isn't discouraging that kind of thing part of what size acceptance is about?


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## frankman (Feb 22, 2011)

Whooo, my favorite thread got bumped!

Cue angry people being angry and apologetic people being apologetic.


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## Paquito (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm so sorry, but I'm ANGRY.

RAGE.

Again, my apologies.


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## luscious_lulu (Feb 22, 2011)

frankman said:


> Whooo, my favorite thread got bumped!
> 
> Cue angry people being angry and apologetic people being apologetic.





Paquito said:


> I'm so sorry, but I'm ANGRY.
> 
> RAGE.
> 
> Again, my apologies.



:wubu: you guys are the best! Now it's time to let the drama whoring start anew!


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## Rowan (Feb 22, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I'm not looking for a perfect partner with no body image issues (as I've said like 4 times, everyone has them) just one who doesn't think being chubby sucks.



I don't care who the fuck you are, male or female, if you're plus size, I can guarantee there will be days when you think being chubby sucks for any myriad of reasons. No plus size person...even the most confident...goes around every second of every minute of every day absolutely cheering for their size, even if they are most of the time positive about it and have no problems with being large. Being plus size is a fucking pain in the ass sometimes. That's just how it is. 

Just mho.


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## Blackjack (Feb 22, 2011)

frankman said:


> Whooo, my favorite thread got bumped!
> 
> Cue angry people being angry and apologetic people being apologetic.





Paquito said:


> I'm so sorry, but I'm ANGRY.
> 
> RAGE.
> 
> Again, my apologies.



Fuck you both.

I'm only saying that so I can apologize and we can have awesome make-up sex.


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## CastingPearls (Feb 22, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I already said I've changed my mind (a lot, actually) since I wrote that first post, and by this point I want to disown it.
> 
> But, as a side note, isn't discouraging that kind of thing part of what size acceptance is about?


I bet you get off on picking scabs too, don't you?


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## mossystate (Feb 22, 2011)

Only the scabs on other bodies.


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## penguin (Feb 22, 2011)

luscious_lulu said:


> :wubu: you guys are the best! Now it's time to let the drama whoring start anew!



Should we go stand on street corners, selling drama to those who drive up to us late at night?


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## frankman (Feb 22, 2011)

penguin said:


> Should we go stand on street corners, selling drama to those who drive up to us late at night?



That's a dangerous road. We could get raped in the tearducts.


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## penguin (Feb 24, 2011)

frankman said:


> That's a dangerous road. We could get raped in the tearducts.



You say that like it's a bad thing.


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## Jes (Feb 24, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I don't care who the fuck you are, male or female, if you're plus size....Being plus size is a fucking pain in the ass sometimes. That's just how it is.
> 
> Just mho.


Take a look at the link Superodalisque posted ...somewhere. BBW board I think. A study found that the avg woman (not fat woman) has 13 'I hate my body' moments a day. And MEAN moments--not just 'I look ugly in this outfit' but 'I look ugly and I'm a disgusting pig no one will ever love' moments. Thirteen. So...yeah.


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## frankman (Feb 24, 2011)

penguin said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing.



Only if you don't like crying pearly white tears of joy.


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## penguin (Feb 24, 2011)

frankman said:


> Only if you don't like crying pearly white tears of joy.



Mmm, extra salty.


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## Jes (Feb 24, 2011)

penguin said:


> Mmm, extra salty.



Warm bleach milkshake!


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## superodalisque (Feb 24, 2011)

Jes said:


> Take a look at the link Superodalisque posted ...somewhere. BBW board I think. A study found that the avg woman (not fat woman) has 13 'I hate my body' moments a day. And MEAN moments--not just 'I look ugly in this outfit' but 'I look ugly and I'm a disgusting pig no one will ever love' moments. Thirteen. So...yeah.



thanks for noting that. maybe i should have posted here in the first place. here it is for anyone who'd like to see it:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/41715498#41715498


and here is the article they're talking about: http://www.glamour.com/health-fitne...-of-women-will-be-cruel-to-their-bodies-today


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## tonynyc (Feb 24, 2011)

Paquito said:


> I'm so sorry, but I'm ANGRY.
> 
> RAGE.
> 
> Again, my apologies.



Paquito never gets angry ... Paquito gets even....:happy:


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## Shosh (Feb 25, 2011)

I have to commend you Felicia. You are always gracious and calm in debates here.
You do not attack others personally, and you give well thought out responses, regardless if one happens to agree with you or not.

I would take any personal attacks against you with a grain of salt.


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## Jes (Feb 25, 2011)

YES.

Let's bottomline this entire thread with a resounding YES.

Here's a tip: Anytime anyone titles a thread: IS IT WRONG ...

the answer will always be yes.

The end. Vagina.


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## butch (Feb 25, 2011)

Quick mod note-

I've removed posts that attack, or approve of attacks, on other posters. If they continue, the people who do it will get infracted. Thanks for understanding.

-Butch
Main Board Co-Mod


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## Blackhawk2293 (Feb 25, 2011)

Seventy-Seven said:


> I posted this on another - non fat-related - forum when someone brought up the topic of why some women need to be reassured in their looks so much:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You're not wrong for thinking anything unless you believe it is wrong, they are your thoughts after all.

The fact that you THINK at all is actually kind of refreshing as it is becoming increasingly uncommon in today's society! LMAO!!


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## LalaCity (Feb 25, 2011)

A case of threadwreck (possibly bordering on boardwreck).

Continue.


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