# "reluctant BBW"



## ripley (May 23, 2006)

In Boteroesque Babe's thread about coming out, a poster referred to a politician's wife as a "reluctant BBW." As if this was a mark against her somehow. Is she not a "real" BBW then? Does a fat woman have to be gung-ho about being fat to represent? Is it a choice between being a cheerleader-for-fat woman in our camp versus a reluctant fat woman who hangs on to hope of an inclusion into the normal-sized person's camp? 

I'm not sure if I've said what I mean here clearly (surprise surprise ) but I didn't want to hijack BoBabe's thread, and I want to know what all of you good people think.


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## fatlane (May 23, 2006)

Yes. Please wear cheerleader outfits and post pics plz tanx.

Er, I mean, one needen't be involved in what AnnMarie eloquently termed "Advanced Fat" politics. But people should feel comfortable with who they are. Part of SA is to help people find a beauty they may have been told did not exist. It's there, and we can prove it.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 23, 2006)

IMO, a big woman's no less beautiful if she doesn't accept that she is.


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## Donna (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> Does a fat woman have to be gung-ho about being fat to represent? Is it a choice between being a cheerleader-for-fat woman in our camp versus a reluctant fat woman who hangs on to hope of an inclusion into the normal-sized person's camp?
> 
> I'm not sure if I've said what I mean here clearly (surprise surprise ) but I didn't want to hijack BoBabe's thread, and I want to know what all of you good people think.



I think I understand what you are asking. And no, I don't believe it should ever come down to a choice between cheerleader and "reluctant BBW", or any point in between. I'm going to venture out on a limb and say some of us even embody BOTH of those aspects given the day. There are times when I feel like a cheerleader, while there are other days I question myself and my confidence. I think it's normal part of human behavior to question ourselves. It's also normal to want to "fit in" (pun intended.) That doesn't, however, mean that society should be allowed to dictate who we are or whom we chose to share our bed with.

I think we represent every time we walk out the door, every time we are productive members of society. Sometimes it's a shout, and sometimes it's whisper (to borrow Missaf's words from another thread.) Yeah, I am not blind and I realize that man is a cruel animal (and I use man as a representor of the human race and not the male gender.) But I think some folks use that as a crutch for bad behavior. But I am digressing, so I will leave it here. I don't think it's a mark against anyone if they are a reluctant BBW (or even a reluctant admirer.) 

As long as someone is being true to who they are, it's all good, right?

Now did I make any sense?


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## JoyJoy (May 23, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> IMO, a big woman's no less beautiful if she doesn't accept that she is.


 
There are different types of beauty, I think you'll agree. There is the inherent kind that I believe all people have - some recognize it, others don't. That's where the other beauty comes in - the beauty of loving oneself. Those who love themselves might not feel outwardly beautiful, but their inner beauty comes out, which makes them seem absolutely gorgeous to others...and hopefully, eventually, they'll feel it, too. 

When I first started gaining weight 20 years ago, and for many years after, I hated myself, especially my body. I was angry, bitter, and just plain ugly. It showed in how I carried myself and how I treated others. It's a BIG reason why my marriage ended. I was a very unhappy, ugly fat woman. It was a horrible place to be. I am thankful every single day not to be that person anymore, and I hope that everyone can find a certain level of self-acceptance and love that will allow them to feel beautiful. 

I know in today's society, it's a tough thing to accept that you are "out of the norm" and be okay with that...and perhaps that's what the term "reluctant BBW" is meant to say. Maybe she is someone who is slowly realizing that physically, she isn't what society in general finds acceptable, and that that is really okay.


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## moonvine (May 23, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand your question, so forgive me if I get off course.

I think it is "ok" for all people to be whoever they are.

I'm glad there are organizations like NAAFA out there who fight for the rights of all fat people, whether they want to be fat or not.

I totally think whether fat people want to be fat or not they are entitled to equal protection under the law, entitled to not be discriminated against for jobs or housing or extension of credit or anything else solely on the basis of their size.

I probably wouldn't want to hang out with a fat person with bad self-esteem because I like to stay away from negative energy.


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## LillyBBBW (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> In Boteroesque Babe's thread about coming out, a poster referred to a politician's wife as a "reluctant BBW." As if this was a mark against her somehow. Is she not a "real" BBW then? Does a fat woman have to be gung-ho about being fat to represent? Is it a choice between being a cheerleader-for-fat woman in our camp versus a reluctant fat woman who hangs on to hope of an inclusion into the normal-sized person's camp?
> 
> I'm not sure if I've said what I mean here clearly (surprise surprise ) but I didn't want to hijack BoBabe's thread, and I want to know what all of you good people think.



I'm not sure what you're asking. When you're fat, you're fat - even if you are unhappy about it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you're not fat. 

If you're Kirstie Alley and you're on tv calling yourself a sow and making fun of fat people while hawking Jenny Craig and showcasing your weight loss for all to see? Not so enthusiastic. There are people whom if they ever lost any weight they would flop right over to the other side of the fence in the blink of an eye saying, "Whew! Glad I ain't like YOU anymore." It makes me wary and slightly intolerant of sadvocates. I try to avoid them myself to be honest with you. Unhappy people are a drag, regardless of the reason.

Then there are the in betweens, people who say, "Dammit I feel awful," and they want to do something to improve their health and mobility. In my view it's someone taking responsibility and trying to do something to make improvements in their health which may include some form of dietary changes or physical exercise.


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## FitChick (May 23, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> IMO, a big woman's no less beautiful if she doesn't accept that she is.




I don't agree....I think if ANY woman (fat or thin) does not like herself and her body, it shows in how she presents herself, and that makes her unattractive. Confidence is number one for me, and for most people.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 23, 2006)

JoyJoy said:


> There are different types of beauty, I think you'll agree. There is the inherent kind that I believe all people have - some recognize it, others don't. That's where the other beauty comes in - the beauty of loving oneself. Those who love themselves might not feel outwardly beautiful, but their inner beauty comes out, which makes them seem absolutely gorgeous to others...and hopefully, eventually, they'll feel it, too.
> 
> When I first started gaining weight 20 years ago, and for many years after, I hated myself, especially my body. I was angry, bitter, and just plain ugly. It showed in how I carried myself and how I treated others. It's a BIG reason why my marriage ended. I was a very unhappy, ugly fat woman. It was a horrible place to be. I am thankful every single day not to be that person anymore, and I hope that everyone can find a certain level of self-acceptance and love that will allow them to feel beautiful.
> 
> I know in today's society, it's a tough thing to accept that you are "out of the norm" and be okay with that...and perhaps that's what the term "reluctant BBW" is meant to say. Maybe she is someone who is slowly realizing that physically, she isn't what society in general finds acceptable, and that that is really okay.



I couldn't agree more with your post. I believe most human beings have the potential to be beautiful though, and whether or not they recognize that potential, it exists.


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## NFA (May 23, 2006)

I don't think the notion of a "reluctant" BBW is a meaningful term, though. For the most part in our culture, its just redundant. Most people aren't happy with their bodies. As such, I don't think fat acceptance should ever make a role model out of someone simply for being fat. We can appreciate them for what they've accomplished, but we cannot expect them to be supportive of fat people and fat acceptance. Even those who have professed to feel that way have turned around and bashed fat acceptance. We can look at famous people of size for somethings, but not as role models for self-acceptance. Its not fair to them. Its a role they haven't asked for and which most are ill-suited for.

To represent fat acceptance, yes. One does need to actually believe in fat acceptance. The benefits of fat acceptance will help all fat people, but that doesn't mean it exists to represent the views of all fat people. Most fat people are hostile to fat acceptance, just as most people are. Their size doesn't provide them special rights to shut down beliefs they don't agree with. Doesn't mean this is an only cheerleader movement. Even the most accepting person isn't going to be 100% positive 100% of the time. Acceptance is a journey, and everyone on the journey contributes to the message and in advocating for it. But you need to be committed to that journey to advocate for it, no matter what stage you find yourself. While acceptance seeks to improve the lives of all fat people and encourage others to join in that journey, it cannot be beholden to those people who will want to undermine the process. Even if those people are fat. They've a right to their opinion, but we have no obligation to agree and we need to be strong enough to do so. The cheerleaders will play an important part in that, but everyone should feel empowered to stand up for their beliefs. I'll fight for what I feel is right for all fat people. Whether they agree or not, I cannot let go of my beliefs because they might upset someone. They, obviously, saw no reason to do so for me. It would be inconcievable for me to fight for acceptance only for the few I felt worthy of it. At the same time, though, I need to acknowledge that a person who wants to undermine this fight and this journey is no ally based soley on their body size.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 23, 2006)

> I don't agree....I think if ANY woman (fat or thin) does not like herself and her body, it shows in how she presents herself, and that makes her unattractive. Confidence is number one for me, and for most people.



So we should tell someone who has an eating disorder to stop because they're ugly? "Confidence" is a charade for most. Anyone can do it. I dated an incredibly beautiful, socially ideal woman. She was 6' tall, 120 lbs, C cup breasts, short-waisted, long-legged, the whole package. Her posture was nice and she was friendly and engaging. She was confident enough to pursue a career as a model and be successful. She WAS beautiful. She was, however, often not confident about her looks or intelligence.


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## rainyday (May 23, 2006)

I don't believe one necessarily has to be loud, proud and in someone's face to be an agent of change. Quietly defying stereotypes on a day-to-day basis is also an important part of what carries the momentum along.


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## ripley (May 23, 2006)

I'm not sure what I was asking either.  That's why I wanted your help and input to maybe clear it up; talking things out here often helps me clarify. 

I guess what was bothering me is that in the original thread, someone said that John Edwards's wife was a BBW, and the response was "yeah, but she's a _reluctant_ [my italics] BBW." I mean, I wish that every fat person could vocally advance fat acceptance (especially ones in the public eye), but does it necessary follow that if she is not happy with her weight that it's undermining fat acceptance? Part of me thinks that yes, it does. Part of me thinks that's ridiculous. Figure this out for me, people.


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## rainyday (May 23, 2006)

Rip, do you mean "Does it undermine fat acceptance if there are still things we'd like to change about our bodies?"


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## saucywench (May 23, 2006)

Don't think you could get away with coining a new term and have it go unnoticed by me, Lilly.  

"sadvocate"--brilliant! And you trumped my term of "crasshole" because I discovered it had already been created.:doh: 

Now you must rush over to urbandictionary.com and stake your claim with a definition.


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## ripley (May 23, 2006)

rainyday said:


> Rip, do you mean "Does it undermine fat acceptance if there are still things we'd like to change about our bodies?"




Hell, I don't know. Maybe. 

I guess I am wondering if fat people being in the public eye is enough, even when they are reluctantly fat, in terms of advancing fat acceptance (in the general public), or if the fact that they are weight loss proponents actually undermines?





I really have to quit starting threads when I'm tired.


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## Sandie_Zitkus (May 23, 2006)

What I read you asking is "If you're a big woman and want to lose weight - does that undermine size acceptance?"

No.

If you're gonna call it *size*acceptance then that means ALL sizes. Fat and thin and anywhere in between. And who are we to judge a person for wanting to lose weight? I'm not them. I have no idea what they deal with everyday. 

I want my mobility back - so I have set about to lose some weight. And it's working - and I am infinately happier now. If someone wants to knock me for it they can kiss my still very large - shapely butt! No matter how much weight I lose - I'm still gonna be fat by societies standards unless I'm a size zero. To me - THAT'S THE REAL FIGHT! The lunacy of our society not accepting anybody who's over a size 4. 

If that's not what you were asking.................nevermind. 




ripley said:


> I'm not sure what I was asking either.  That's why I wanted your help and input to maybe clear it up; talking things out here often helps me clarify.
> 
> I guess what was bothering me is that in the original thread, someone said that John Edwards's wife was a BBW, and the response was "yeah, but she's a _reluctant_ [my italics] BBW." I mean, I wish that every fat person could vocally advance fat acceptance (especially ones in the public eye), but does it necessary follow that if she is not happy with her weight that it's undermining fat acceptance? Part of me thinks that yes, it does. Part of me thinks that's ridiculous. Figure this out for me, people.


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## Chimpi (May 23, 2006)

Personally, I think what a "reluctant BBW" would or might mean is simply: That specific person does not accept themselves as a Big Beautiful Woman. *shrugs* Reluctant to be such a person, I suppose. Reluctant to accept themselves as such.



Donnaalicious said:


> think we represent every time we walk out the door, every time we are productive members of society.



I am not sure if this was a two-part sentence, or two different ideas all-together. I think that if a Big Beautiful Woman walks out the door... Let us take Lilly's example of Kirstie Alley, who was against herself looking and feeling the way she did... and is someone who does not see themselves as Big & Beautiful in any way, then there's no chance she would be "representin'" anything, except, like FitChick said, unattractiveness. Confidence is definately a key attractive ingredient, I think most people will agree.

And as many have said, and especially NFA (Great post dude), acceptance is inside oneself, not in the enviornment around them. Sure, it helps, but it always has to come from within.


TheSadeianLinguist said:


> So we should tell someone who has an eating disorder to stop because they're ugly? "Confidence" is a charade for most. Anyone can do it.



I think what FitChick meant was this:
*Confidence is an attractive trait.* Someone who has confidence in themselves can usually tend to be more desireable (for lack of a better word...) than someone who hates themself and does not feel like or want to be loved... Hmmm. Something to that effect. And that is definately my opinion as well. 
Just because someone has an eating disorder does not make them "ugly". Any one of us here at Dimensions (or I would hope so) would disagree that fat women and fat men are ugly. I do, personally, know a few people that see fat women (yes, they're all guys) as disgusting slobs. Nothing I can do about it. It is who they are. Therefor, I would assume that "ugly" (in terms of a mental affair) is a very personal visualization of another person (and can often expand to a group or global visualization).

And referring back to NFA's post again, I agree that no one has to live up to a "role model" aspect of living. AnnMarie, Cindy, SoVerySoft, even KelliGirl... all of them have no _obligation_ to be a role model to anybody. They're just confident in who they are and how they look. Sure, you personally can see them as a role model to you, but that does not mean that others should, or they should act as such. *shrugs* I do not believe that every person has to be confident in themselves. Obviously it is a much "free-er" (hehe) way of thinking, but not required for life. If someone chooses to be a "reluctant BBW", so be it. There are those that will try to be a role model in changing their way of thinking, and there are those that will not.

*sigh* Sorry to go off-topic a little bit...


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## Jane (May 23, 2006)

Do you know anyone (especially women, men can often cover with bravado) who wouldn't change something about their looks?

I don't.


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## ripley (May 23, 2006)

I don't blame anyone for not understanding me, I didn't understand myself.  


One thing though...I'm not talking about your average fat person. I'm talking about celebrities and people in the public eye. If every fat person that's famous, semi-famous, or infamous is always saying that they want to lose weight...are those blows to society truly accepting the fat?


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## Chimpi (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> One thing though...I'm not talking about your average fat person. I'm talking about celebrities and people in the public eye. If every fat person that's famous, semi-famous, or infamous is always saying that they want to lose weight...are those blows to society truly accepting the fat?



Absolutely. Especially since most everyday people view them as that - celebrities. They are the eye candy, am I right?


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## Santaclear (May 23, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> IMO, a big woman's no less beautiful if she doesn't accept that she is.





FitChick said:


> I don't agree....I think if ANY woman (fat or thin) does not like herself and her body, it shows in how she presents herself, and that makes her unattractive. Confidence is number one for me, and for most people.



I agree with Sadeian's position here. While what FitChick is saying is true that a lack of confidence DOES show, I've never felt that it necessarily makes a person less attractive. Maybe less "sellable" only, but I don't care about that.


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## Santaclear (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> I'm not talking about your average fat person. I'm talking about celebrities and people in the public eye. If every fat person that's famous, semi-famous, or infamous is always saying that they want to lose weight...are those blows to society truly accepting the fat?



It certainly doesn't help. That's one of the many, many reasons the cult of "celebrity" is so tiresome tho.


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## LillyBBBW (May 23, 2006)

Heh. I've never written a definition before but I submitted one. Lets see if it gets past the editors:

*Sadvocate* - one resigned to defend or maintain a cause or proposal due to circumstances beyond their control. 

_The rally meeting attracted many hard core activists and supporters as well as a sadvocate or two for whom it was obvious they would have much preferred to be partnering with the adversary​_



saucywench said:


> Don't think you could get away with coining a new term and have it go unnoticed by me, Lilly.
> 
> "sadvocate"--brilliant! And you trumped my term of "crasshole" because I discovered it had already been created.:doh:
> 
> Now you must rush over to urbandictionary.com and stake your claim with a definition.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 23, 2006)

I dont think that being a fat person that wants to lose weight is a blow to size acceptance. Size acceptance is about accepting people for whatever size they happen to be, whether its a 2 or a 32. 

I do however believe that's it a blow to size acceptance if there is a fat person who's in the public eye that wants to lose weight because she/he feels that they are less worthy or less attractive than their thin counterparts simply because of their weight.

Does that make sense? I totally know what point I'm trying to make but not sure I'm making it here....


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## AnnMarie (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> Hell, I don't know. Maybe.
> 
> I guess I am wondering if fat people being in the public eye is enough, even when they are reluctantly fat, in terms of advancing fat acceptance (in the general public), or if the fact that they are weight loss proponents actually undermines?
> 
> ...



I think, yes, it undermines (FAT acceptance, not talking size in general). 

If you're in the public eye and are openly negative about your weight, you're just reinforcing the stereotype to fat people at home that they're right to be down on themselves. 

Do I think you HAVE to be a positive fat person? No, that's insane to think, but I do believe that fat people in the public eye who are outwardly negative about their bodies are doing a disservice. They are under no obligation to be an activist, but they aren't going to get any "yay, she's fat!!" from me if that's their attitude.

Mandisa is a good example... everyone wanted her to be pro-fat, and she wasn't... she was public about weight struggles, and wanting to get her vices under control. So when people here suggested we should support her just because she's a fat girl.... NO. If she were a totally positive, PRO-fat girl,.... dunno, maybe I'd have gone out of my way to try. In the long run, my support of her was based on singing, not fat. I have NO idea if that made sense, but I'm trying here.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 23, 2006)

AnnMarie said:


> I think, yes, it undermines (FAT acceptance, not talking size in general).
> 
> If you're in the public eye and are openly negative about your weight, you're just reinforcing the stereotype to fat people at home that they're right to be down on themselves.
> 
> ...




That makes TOTAL sense, someone shouldn't be supported just because they are fat. Just as someone shouldn't be held back because of being fat!


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## ripley (May 23, 2006)

Ella Bella said:


> Does that make sense? I totally know what point I'm trying to make but not sure I'm making it here....






AnnMarie said:


> I have NO idea if that made sense, but I'm trying here.



Good Lord, it's catching.


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## fatgirlflyin (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> Good Lord, it's catching.




LOL that's too funny


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## missaf (May 23, 2006)

Kinda going to what Chimpi said, confidence in itself can overwhelm any other trait about a person.


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## grey1969 (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> I don't blame anyone for not understanding me, I didn't understand myself.
> 
> 
> One thing though...I'm not talking about your average fat person. I'm talking about celebrities and people in the public eye. If every fat person that's famous, semi-famous, or infamous is always saying that they want to lose weight...are those blows to society truly accepting the fat?



Just to clarify the incident under discussion was an interview of vice-presidential candidate John Edwards and his wife in 2004. The question of her size (I would guess she may have been about a size 22-24) came up and she remarked that she realized her weight was unhealthy and she planned to work to reduce it for health reasons.

Similarly, Mandisa Hundley the plus-sized American Idol contestant also 
cited health concerns as the primary reason for her desire to lose weight.

So these folks in the public eye are not saying fat is ugly. They are saying fat is unhealthy. 

This is a much bigger threat to any hopes for advancing size acceptance. That is partly because it is based in scientific fact not subjective opinions on a standard of beauty. Being fatter generally does increase the incidence of a number of medical conditions, or so the statisticians tell us. That the increased risk is sometimes not that much in absolute terms is irrelevant when the issue gets twisted out of proportion. The 'health' aspect can sometimes become the scapegoat for people who want to lose weight and they can effectively use it as an excuse so they don't need to appear superficial. Then there are those like Missy Elliot who discover they do have a weight-related health problem and prudently lose weight in response. It is clearly not a simple issue.


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## ripley (May 23, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> It is clearly not a simple issue.




Hence the rampant confusion I've spread in this thread, lol.


By the way...thanks for not getting offended that I made this thread. I didn't mean it as a nit-pick at you, and I'm glad you didn't take it that way.


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## AnnMarie (May 23, 2006)

ripley said:


> By the way...thanks for not getting offended that I made this thread. I didn't mean it as a nit-pick at you, and I'm glad you didn't take it that way.



WHAT ????
Can't hear ya.


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## rainyday (May 23, 2006)

She's a tiny talker.


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## NFA (May 24, 2006)

ripley said:


> One thing though...I'm not talking about your average fat person. I'm talking about celebrities and people in the public eye. If every fat person that's famous, semi-famous, or infamous is always saying that they want to lose weight...are those blows to society truly accepting the fat?



Yes. And that's precisely the situation we have. Now, I can't be offended by every fat person who wants to lose weight, famous or not. I think its sad that they believe weight loss will solve their problems and I'm sad because I know for all the enthusiasm they show while losing weight, virtually every one of them will gain all that weight back. I'm saddened by this because I know there is a better way. I can't be angry about it. But I will be angry about those who profit off of fat hatred or who actively work to undermine or hurt fat acceptance.

Size acceptance and fat acceptance are the same thing. ALWAYS have been. The notion that size acceptance means diet acceptance is frankly insulting to all of the activists who have put in their time and energy fighting for a better way. No one has an obligation to believe in fat acceptance, but I do think no one has a right to misuse and abuse the vocabulary of a decades old civil rights movement and use them for flatly contradictory purposes. No, size acceptance is not about weight stigmatization or manipulation. No more for the feederists than for the dieters. Weight loss doesn't work just because someone really wants it to. We need to find better solutions than those offered fat people. Because what we are offered has done nothing but fail us with false hope and dangerous abuse.


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## ripley (May 24, 2006)

NFA said:


> Size acceptance and fat acceptance are the same thing.


 

See...I'm not sure that that's such a good thing. Now, I'm not promoting bashing thin people. But do they need us to advocate for them? I really don't think so. I think using "size acceptance" is a way of watering down FAT acceptance. Maybe it is a good thing, as it probably makes it more palatable for some. 


Now I'm contradicting myself. I am going to rename this The Confused Thread.


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## grey1969 (May 24, 2006)

ripley said:


> See...I'm not sure that that's such a good thing. Now, I'm not promoting bashing thin people. But do they need us to advocate for them? I really don't think so. I think using "size acceptance" is a way of watering down FAT acceptance. Maybe it is a good thing, as it probably makes it more palatable for some.
> 
> 
> Now I'm contradicting myself. I am going to rename this The Confused Thread.



Maybe you misinterpreted what he was saying because I think he was actually in agreement with you. For me the role of a group like NAAFA is to advocate for fat people. We are talking about people who are significantly above the 'norm' to the point where many believe they are justified in discriminating against and disrespecting said fat people. This is clearly a serious civil rights issue. The idea of supporting those of roughly 'normal' weight who have body-image issues or feel discriminated against because they are not a size two with a model figure should remain separate because this is not the same kind of a civil rights issue in my opinion (more so it is part of the issues around women's battle for equality).

I used the term size acceptance in posting above because I assumed this might be the more preferred term in this venue. However, the official position here is that 'fat' is not a bad word, so I will use the term fat acceptance in the future.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 24, 2006)

> Originally Posted by TheSadeianLinguist
> IMO, a big woman's no less beautiful if she doesn't accept that she is.






> Originally Posted by FitChick
> I don't agree....I think if ANY woman (fat or thin) does not like herself and her body, it shows in how she presents herself, and that makes her unattractive. Confidence is number one for me, and for most people.


 



Santaclear said:


> I agree with Sadeian's position here. While what FitChick is saying is true that a lack of confidence DOES show, I've never felt that it necessarily makes a person less attractive. Maybe less "sellable" only, but I don't care about that.



I agree with FitChick only because confidence has made me feel more attractive and I think I attract more attention now than I did before. I also walk looking up rather than looking down. I make more eye contact. I dress with a little more style. I'm still very shy but not like I was before. Confidence is key. 

As for being a reluctant BBW...I guess that part of me will always be there. But when I was less confident in myself I sure didn't feel like a BBW. I do now.


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## FitChick (May 24, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> I agree with FitChick only because confidence has made me feel more attractive and I think I attract more attention now than I did before. I also walk looking up rather than looking down. I make more eye contact. I dress with a little more style. I'm still very shy but not like I was before. Confidence is key.
> 
> As for being a reluctant BBW...I guess that part of me will always be there. But when I was less confident in myself I sure didn't feel like a BBW. I do now.



I never really believed that until I put it into practice. I was fat but didn't take much care as to how I looked....and guess what? No one flirted with me or complimented me. It wasn't that I didn't like myself, I was just so busy taking care of the kids that I put my own looks on the back burner so to speak.

But once I decided to START dressing nicely, wearing makeup, in general, taking better care of my looks FOR ME, I FELT better AND people started noticing me. And the better I felt I looked, the better I carried myself, and the more compliments I got. I didnt do it for others, but FOR ME (and I have the fat acceptance mvmt to thank for it because it was in reading fat acceptance stuff that I made the decision to take better care of myself.)


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## NFA (May 24, 2006)

ripley said:


> See...I'm not sure that that's such a good thing. Now, I'm not promoting bashing thin people. But do they need us to advocate for them? I really don't think so. I think using "size acceptance" is a way of watering down FAT acceptance. Maybe it is a good thing, as it probably makes it more palatable for some.
> 
> Now I'm contradicting myself. I am going to rename this The Confused Thread.



While some use the term "Size Acceptance" as a means of watering down and even undoing fat acceptance, that was never the intent. The idea behind the term was an expansion of fat acceptance. It didn't mean any fat activist would be running out to advocate for thin people. As you point out, they hardly need it. But it was, I think, intended to clarify that what was being promoted was not a reverse of the present system (as in, fat encouragement, something critcs still accuse the movement of), but as something very different indeed which called for all people to live in harmony with their bodies. That no one should feel that their body is unacceptable. Indeed, the effects of fat bigotry in our country are wide reaching and effect many people who are are not fat in any useful sense. Many people who would readily be identified as thin and who would only experience size discrimination in the most narrow circumstances, are nevertheless crippled by the fear of fat. Many people live their lives in a perpetual state of starvation for fear of being a few pounds heavier. Others feel shame or self-hatred for being heavier than they feel they are supposed to be, even if their bodies would be seen as normally thin by most people in our society. We've all seen thin friends who fret about their weight. Size Acceptance clarifies that its not just fat people who's lives are harmed by our cultures obsession with thinness. The message, "but you're not fat" won't work for some of those ills. A more effective approach is working to undo to stigma and hatred of fatness. I'm not saying that's an easy approach, but it is one that addresses the root problem.

While an important part of Size Acceptance is fighting fat discrimination, that isn't all that it is. I'll grant you, that you can oppose size discrimination without being for fat acceptance. But that is no reason for the movement to become one of the lowest common denomenator, supporting the one thing "everyone" can agree on for the purpose of silencing those views which are more challenging to the status quo. Few people actively want to discriminate against fat people, after all. So why is it so widespread? 

In our culture, an overwhelming number of people do feel that being fat is wrong. So they don't feel very motivated to be upset by discrimination and many will engage in it subconsciously. If someone wants to start a movement to try to stop discrimination while still endorsing the message that fat is bad, they are welcome to do so. The fact is, no one actually wants to do that. Every attempt to pretend to do so has either quickly evaporated or spent more time focusing on the "fat is bad" message. Instead, these individuals just call on Fat/Size Acceptance to stop saying the things they don't like. That's not fighting against fat discrimination, its fighting against fat acceptance. I do not feel we can fight against fat discrimination as long as the dominant view is that fat is a moral failing and a physical dysfunction. I think those beliefs are the foundation for fat bigotry and without refuting them we can make no progress against discrimination. No civil rights movement has ever succeeded by endorsing the sentiment of inferiority directed at oppressed groups, and I can see no reason to expect fat liberation to be any different. Moreover, I see no cause to accept these sentiments as truth. Fat defeatism doesn't work. Never has. There are better ways to serve the health and mental well-being of fat people than weight stigmatization.


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## moonvine (May 24, 2006)

ripley said:


> Hell, I don't know. Maybe.
> 
> I guess I am wondering if fat people being in the public eye is enough, even when they are reluctantly fat, in terms of advancing fat acceptance (in the general public), or if the fact that they are weight loss proponents actually undermines?



I think if you are a weight loss cheerleader, it is definitely undermining fat acceptance. I mean how many people who are trying to lose weight are going to even want to be involved in the fat acceptance movement? I am sure there are a few, but I think the numbers are likely to be small. I think this is a big part of why we *don't* have a large voting bloc and we *don't* have any political power or legal protection. Most fat people think they are just "temporarily" fat and if they just work hard enough they will be thin. Often they also don't believe they deserve equal protection under the law. They go along with the social ostrasization they get because they think they deserve it. And the cycle continues.


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## moonvine (May 24, 2006)

grey1969 said:


> Similarly, Mandisa Hundley the plus-sized American Idol contestant also
> cited health concerns as the primary reason for her desire to lose weight.
> 
> So these folks in the public eye are not saying fat is ugly. They are saying fat is unhealthy.




I think this is also bad. One of the core tenets of the fat acceptance movement is that fat, in and of itself, is not unhealthy. Especially when you are a size 22-24. Good lord!


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## EtobicokeFA (May 24, 2006)

NFA said:


> While some use the term "Size Acceptance" as a means of watering down and even undoing fat acceptance, that was never the intent. The idea behind the term was an expansion of fat acceptance. It didn't mean any fat activist would be running out to advocate for thin people. As you point out, they hardly need it. But it was, I think, intended to clarify that what was being promoted was not a reverse of the present system (as in, fat encouragement, something critcs still accuse the movement of), but as something very different indeed which called for all people to live in harmony with their bodies. That no one should feel that their body is unacceptable. Indeed, the effects of fat bigotry in our country are wide reaching and effect many people who are are not fat in any useful sense. Many people who would readily be identified as thin and who would only experience size discrimination in the most narrow circumstances, are nevertheless crippled by the fear of fat. Many people live their lives in a perpetual state of starvation for fear of being a few pounds heavier. Others feel shame or self-hatred for being heavier than they feel they are supposed to be, even if their bodies would be seen as normally thin by most people in our society. We've all seen thin friends who fret about their weight. Size Acceptance clarifies that its not just fat people who's lives are harmed by our cultures obsession with thinness. The message, "but you're not fat" won't work for some of those ills. A more effective approach is working to undo to stigma and hatred of fatness. I'm not saying that's an easy approach, but it is one that addresses the root problem.
> 
> While an important part of Size Acceptance is fighting fat discrimination, that isn't all that it is. I'll grant you, that you can oppose size discrimination without being for fat acceptance. But that is no reason for the movement to become one of the lowest common denomenator, supporting the one thing "everyone" can agree on for the purpose of silencing those views which are more challenging to the status quo. Few people actively want to discriminate against fat people, after all. So why is it so widespread?
> 
> In our culture, an overwhelming number of people do feel that being fat is wrong. So they don't feel very motivated to be upset by discrimination and many will engage in it subconsciously. If someone wants to start a movement to try to stop discrimination while still endorsing the message that fat is bad, they are welcome to do so. The fact is, no one actually wants to do that. Every attempt to pretend to do so has either quickly evaporated or spent more time focusing on the "fat is bad" message. Instead, these individuals just call on Fat/Size Acceptance to stop saying the things they don't like. That's not fighting against fat discrimination, its fighting against fat acceptance. I do not feel we can fight against fat discrimination as long as the dominant view is that fat is a moral failing and a physical dysfunction. I think those beliefs are the foundation for fat bigotry and without refuting them we can make no progress against discrimination. No civil rights movement has ever succeeded by endorsing the sentiment of inferiority directed at oppressed groups, and I can see no reason to expect fat liberation to be any different. Moreover, I see no cause to accept these sentiments as truth. Fat defeatism doesn't work. Never has. There are better ways to serve the health and mental well-being of fat people than weight stigmatization.



I agree totally!


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## ripley (May 24, 2006)

NFA said:


> While some use the term "Size Acceptance" as a means of watering down and even undoing fat acceptance, that was never the intent. The idea behind the term was an expansion of fat acceptance. It didn't mean any fat activist would be running out to advocate for thin people. As you point out, they hardly need it. But it was, I think, intended to clarify that what was being promoted was not a reverse of the present system (as in, fat encouragement, something critcs still accuse the movement of), but as something very different indeed which called for all people to live in harmony with their bodies. That no one should feel that their body is unacceptable. Indeed, the effects of fat bigotry in our country are wide reaching and effect many people who are are not fat in any useful sense. Many people who would readily be identified as thin and who would only experience size discrimination in the most narrow circumstances, are nevertheless crippled by the fear of fat. Many people live their lives in a perpetual state of starvation for fear of being a few pounds heavier. Others feel shame or self-hatred for being heavier than they feel they are supposed to be, even if their bodies would be seen as normally thin by most people in our society. We've all seen thin friends who fret about their weight. Size Acceptance clarifies that its not just fat people who's lives are harmed by our cultures obsession with thinness. The message, "but you're not fat" won't work for some of those ills. A more effective approach is working to undo to stigma and hatred of fatness. I'm not saying that's an easy approach, but it is one that addresses the root problem.
> 
> While an important part of Size Acceptance is fighting fat discrimination, that isn't all that it is. I'll grant you, that you can oppose size discrimination without being for fat acceptance. But that is no reason for the movement to become one of the lowest common denomenator, supporting the one thing "everyone" can agree on for the purpose of silencing those views which are more challenging to the status quo. Few people actively want to discriminate against fat people, after all. So why is it so widespread?
> 
> In our culture, an overwhelming number of people do feel that being fat is wrong. So they don't feel very motivated to be upset by discrimination and many will engage in it subconsciously. If someone wants to start a movement to try to stop discrimination while still endorsing the message that fat is bad, they are welcome to do so. The fact is, no one actually wants to do that. Every attempt to pretend to do so has either quickly evaporated or spent more time focusing on the "fat is bad" message. Instead, these individuals just call on Fat/Size Acceptance to stop saying the things they don't like. That's not fighting against fat discrimination, its fighting against fat acceptance. I do not feel we can fight against fat discrimination as long as the dominant view is that fat is a moral failing and a physical dysfunction. I think those beliefs are the foundation for fat bigotry and without refuting them we can make no progress against discrimination. No civil rights movement has ever succeeded by endorsing the sentiment of inferiority directed at oppressed groups, and I can see no reason to expect fat liberation to be any different. Moreover, I see no cause to accept these sentiments as truth. Fat defeatism doesn't work. Never has. There are better ways to serve the health and mental well-being of fat people than weight stigmatization.




Thanks NFA...you've made me look at this a little differently.


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## grey1969 (May 24, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think this is also bad. One of the core tenets of the fat acceptance movement is that fat, in and of itself, is not unhealthy. Especially when you are a size 22-24. Good lord!



It is not just also bad. It is much worse, as I indicated in my earlier message that you selectively quoted from. The reason it is worse is the growing evidence linking obesity with increased incidence of a variety of medical conditions. So now it is not just arbitrary beauty standards but medical science that is the 'enemy'. In reality the increased risk of disease is generally blown out of proportion by the media (as well as by flawed reports such as the recent one from the US Surgeon General's office) , so it sticks in people's minds and they now have two reasons to be down on being fat, esthetics and health.

There is a bit of good news. It has recently been found in several studies that not all body fat is equal when it comes to potential health effects. Abdominal fat, particularly visceral fat is proinflammatory and could contribute to progression of a variey of diseases such as atherosclerosis and joint inflammation. Fat distribution skewed toward the the buttocks and thighs (pear shape) has been shown statistically to potentially offer a protective effect for women against cardiovascular disease. The biochemical reasons for this are yet to be determined.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 25, 2006)

Is the fat the cause of these problems though, or is it merely a side effect, and are you absolutely positive it exists?

The standards for "obesity" have changed. If I measure my hip to waist ratio, I'm technically obese. Yup. Surf around television or the internet concerning diet products or tips. You'll find terms like, "UGLY fat," or, "unsexy fat." My favorite one I found last night, "If you must snack, snack on veggies. Better to be called Bugs Bunny than fatso." 

Anyone who trusts the AMA is nuts anyway. Remember, they used to be simple carb advocates?


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## NFA (May 25, 2006)

The standards for "obesity" changed over night a few years ago. Suddenly, millions of people woke up "obese" when they hadn't been the day before because the standards changed and enveloped a wide range of people who are not observably fat. Today, we hear of terms like "pre-obese" as individuals needing intervention before they become fat. The standard, it seems, is not being "normal" enough. These people meet every conventional standard for a normal weight. And remember, statistically, people who are classified as "overweight" have by far the lowest death rights, so these are people LESS than the "healthiest" observed weight to begin with. But the diet industry has to expand its customer base to survive and since diets are far more likely to induce weight gain than weight loss, what better way to do so than by targeting thinner and thinner people.

The fact is, the risks of fatness are extremely overstated. Those same risks have also been correlated with weight cycling, something nearly every fat person has engaged in during their lives. Losing weight has not been shown effective at even losing weight, and even when a person can maintain a smaller size, there is no evidence that weight loss imparts any health benefit. Simply put, it is a falacy to assume that because fat people seem less healthy than thin people, that turning a fat person into a thin person would make them healthier. For comparison, there are a number of health risks associated with dwarfism. Some little people have the option of undergoing an extremely painful procedure to lengthen their limbs slowly over a period of about a year. For some, this allows them to attain an average height. But this doesn't make the health risks go away. The evidence points to a similiar dynamic with fatness. Weight loss doesn't become achievable because a person really thinks they need to lose weight. It doesn't become achievable because a person is unacceptably fat. Weight loss hasn't been shown to be an achievable or productive "treatment". Period. We need to stop looking for this holy grail of weight loss and starting caring for the health and well-being of fat people in the bodies they have. Not the bodies anyone (inculding themselves), thinks they really ought to have instead.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 25, 2006)

NFA said:


> We need to stop looking for this holy grail of weight loss and starting caring for the health and well-being of fat people in the bodies they have. Not the bodies anyone (inculding themselves), thinks they really ought to have instead.




What if losing weight is the key to better health? I have high blood pressure and have been on meds for a year now. I've lost a great deal of weight and if I lose more I might be able to go off my meds, which is something I really, really want. I agree that people need to be accepting of their bodies because lets face it not everyone is geared to be a size 6...or even a size 16. However, once your body starts telling you that the weight is too much it's time to heed the signs. Everyone's body manages weight differently so I would never presume to tell anyone what weight is too much for them. However, some people can handle 365 lbs or more but I wasn't one of them. I have no shame in wanting to lose weight for my health. It's a struggle but one I'm willing to deal with for my health. I don't think this makes me a reluctant BBW. When I was hiding myself from the "outside world" _because_ of my weight was my "reluctant BBW" stage. Losing weight to stay healthy is my realistic BBW stage.


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## grey1969 (May 25, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> What if losing weight is the key to better health? I have high blood pressure and have been on meds for a year now. I've lost a great deal of weight and if I lose more I might be able to go off my meds, which is something I really, really want. I agree that people need to be accepting of their bodies because lets face it not everyone is geared to be a size 6...or even a size 16. However, once your body starts telling you that the weight is too much it's time to heed the signs. Everyone's body manages weight differently so I would never presume to tell anyone what weight is too much for them. However, some people can handle 365 lbs or more but I wasn't one of them. I have no shame in wanting to lose weight for my health. It's a struggle but one I'm willing to deal with for my health. I don't think this makes me a reluctant BBW. When I was hiding myself from the "outside world" _because_ of my weight was my "reluctant BBW" stage. Losing weight to stay healthy is my realistic BBW stage.




Nancy, that is a wonderful post. Thank you for sharing your experience and I hope you continue to experience improving health. 

NFA is correct when he says that weight loss is not a magic bullet for improving health, but invariably it does contribute to an improvement in symptoms of chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, hypertension and other cardiovascular ailments. And by all means, the weight reduction must be conducted in a proper manner. Starvation dieting is a disaster in that it only produces temporary weight loss. The dieter's basal metabolism rate will become decreased, and the body of the dieter is liable to move to a higher 'set-point' weight when normal calorie consumption is resumed. The only rational way to reduce weight is to permanently decrease calorie consumption to a reasonable level as prescribed by an expert and, most importantly, to increase physical activity.

SL, you are correct that fat in itself does not necessarily cause disease all on its own. If you go back and read my earlier post carefully, you will see that I stated:

"visceral fat is proinflammatory and *could contribute to progression *of a variety of diseases such as atherosclerosis and joint inflammation."

I would add cancer to the list as well. Chronic low-grade inflammation is being linked with a variety of ailments in recent research. The discovery in recent years of the secretion of proinflammatory agents by visceral fat has established the potential mechanistic link between fat and disease. Visceral fat is the fat within the abdominal cavity which can surround the vital organs and has been found to be quite metabolically active. This is opposed to the previously long-held belief that fat cells were simply store-houses for triacylglycerides. People tend to accumulate more visceral fat as they age.

As far as the definition of "overweight" or "obese", it is generally based on the body mass index (BMI). BMI is based on the relationship between height and weight according to the equation: 
BMI = 703*(weight in pounds)/(height in inches)squared
A BMI of 20 to 25 is considered 'normal', 25 to 30 is 'overweight' and over 30 is 'obese'.
For example, I am 67 inches tall and weigh approximately 185 pounds meaning I have a BMI of 703*(185)/(67)squared = 29.0
In order to be considered 'normal' by this equation I would have to weigh less than 160 pounds.
The flaw in using this simple equation is that it does not take into account differences in body composition (fat vs. muscle, bone, etc.). 

Ratios of hip to waist circumference are useful for giving a rough estimation of the amount of visceral (bad) fat in people, particularly females. It turns out to be much more complicated than this because not all abdominal fat is visceral fat (some of it is subcutaneous fat, similar to that which resides on the buttocks and legs). Studies are being done with various imaging techniques to develop more effective ways to measure visceral fat as a better predictor of potential health risks.

As far as expectations for weight loss, there seems to be a lot more talk recently about setting much more modest expectations such as a loss of only loss of 10 to 20 %, and this is being touted as being quite helpful in improving health outcomes. As Nancy said, one should be realistic and act prudently.


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## moonvine (May 26, 2006)

NancyGirl74 said:


> What if losing weight is the key to better health?



Well, I have to hope that it isn't, because diets/lifestylechanges/whatever the hot term of the day is DO NOT WORK for 95% of the people out there.

Where's NFA? He puts this better than I do, but diets don't work if you really want them to. Diets don't work if you really need them to. Diets don't work if you are unhealthy and think losing weight will make you healthier. Diets don't work if you "do it for yourself." Diets don't work if you do it for someone else. Diets don't work, period.

The fat acceptance community isn't against dieting because they fear that people will become thin. We are against dieting because 95% of people gain that weight back, plus some more, within 5 years. It looks like WLS is trending about a 40-50% regain, and that's with your stomach mutilated. 

I did see a doctor on TV, so no link, that stated that the most weight a person could expect to lose and keep off permanently is 20 pounds, and that is with constant vigilance.


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## NancyGirl74 (May 26, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, I have to hope that it isn't, because diets/lifestylechanges/whatever the hot term of the day is DO NOT WORK for 95% of the people out there.
> 
> Where's NFA? He puts this better than I do, but diets don't work if you really want them to. Diets don't work if you really need them to. Diets don't work if you are unhealthy and think losing weight will make you healthier. Diets don't work if you "do it for yourself." Diets don't work if you do it for someone else. Diets don't work, period.
> 
> ...



I've had the option to have WLS and I didn't take it. I did, however, decide that I wanted to lose weight. Call it a diet or a lifestyle change or whatever but the result is still the same. I've lost some weight. I feel good. I feel happy. I have gained some back and I do struggle...but it's my struggle and my choice. I can be a proud BBW and not want to live with high blood pressure. I'm not forcing my choices on anyone else, I'm just telling my story. 

Moon, I actually do agree that in general diets don't work. However, I'm unwilling to just lay down and wait for the stroke or heart attack that comes from having high blood pressure. So, I will fight the best way I know how which is diet, exercise, and taking my meds. If there is a better way please, please, please tell me because diet, exercise, and remembering to take my meds sucks big time.


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## MisticalMisty (May 26, 2006)

Let me throw this question into the mix..haven't we all been at one time or another a reluctant bbw?

I mean..unless you purposely put on weight..didn't you give yourself a hard time and try every diet known to man before learning to accept yourself..I sure know I did.

I was always the fattest kid in school and my mom had me on diet pills in the second grade..all my life I heard crap from my family and up until age 22..I totally and completely believed it..I hated being fat and didn't want to be fat any longer..hence..a reluctant bbw.

Then..I had a lightbulb moment. I started looking at my body differently..and it only furthered when I met my first fa and he introduced me to dimensions. It was then that I started embracing my fat and myself. I love my body today..I love every roll, every curve..every stretchmark..every lump..can I say it's always been that way..no..can I say there are days that I don't wish I could just "fit in" of course..but I'm no longer a reluctant bbw..I'm a proud ssbbw who fights for her rights as a human being..a FAT human being.

So, that's my take on the matter.


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## FitChick (May 26, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> Let me throw this question into the mix..haven't we all been at one time or another a reluctant bbw?
> 
> I mean..unless you purposely put on weight..didn't you give yourself a hard time and try every diet known to man before learning to accept yourself..I sure know I did.
> 
> ...



I admit my situation is unusual, but no, I was never a "reluctant" BBW.
What I was was a reluctant skinny child.


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## MisticalMisty (May 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I admit my situation is unusual, but no, I was never a "reluctant" BBW.
> What I was was a reluctant skinny child.


I've seen you make this claim before..and nothing against you personally..but I don't believe it for a minute.


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## FitChick (May 26, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> I've seen you make this claim before..and nothing against you personally..but I don't believe it for a minute.



You mean, because YOU had issues with your size?

WHY do you find it so hard to believe that a woman can like having been fat? WHY? I was viciously teased for being underweight as a kid, and THAT is what damaged me. For ME, gaining weight was seen as a relief, because it meant no more teasing, ever, for being "a bag of bones".

Just because YOU did not experience that, does not mean NO ONE can.


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## MisticalMisty (May 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> You mean, because YOU had issues with your size?
> 
> WHY do you find it so hard to believe that a woman can like having been fat? WHY? I was viciously teased for being underweight as a kid, and THAT is what damaged me. For ME, gaining weight was seen as a relief, because it meant no more teasing, ever, for being "a bag of bones".
> 
> Just because YOU did not experience that, does not mean NO ONE can.


Been? as in past tense? so if you enjoyed being a bbw so much..why loose the weight?


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## FitChick (May 26, 2006)

MisticalMisty said:


> Been? as in past tense? so if you enjoyed being a bbw so much..why loose the weight?




I guess you don't know my story. OK, here goes in brief.

About 5 years ago I began a lifestyle plan I found in a book, to treat my IBS-D. To treat IBS-D, its important to minimize the amt of food at each meal, and also minimize fried, fatty foods. I had to do this because my IBS was keeping me homebound and sick all the time. I also began doing some light exercise because I was informed that exercise (of an aerobic nature) regulates bowel function.

As a result of doing all this, I have completely stopped all IBS attacks, a fact I am highly grateful for. Unfortunately, doing all this also led to massive weight loss (305 lbs in 2001 to currently, around 135-140.)

I did not want the weight loss, I only wanted my IBS attacks to stop (they used to be very severe).


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## NFA (May 26, 2006)

moonvine said:


> Well, I have to hope that it isn't, because diets/lifestylechanges/whatever the hot term of the day is DO NOT WORK for 95% of the people out there.
> 
> Where's NFA? He puts this better than I do, but diets don't work if you really want them to. Diets don't work if you really need them to. Diets don't work if you are unhealthy and think losing weight will make you healthier. Diets don't work if you "do it for yourself." Diets don't work if you do it for someone else. Diets don't work, period.
> 
> ...



I think you cribbed me quite well, though I'd add that with WLS, the stats are notoriously unreliable as they've clearly been manipulated in multiple ways to keep them from being too negative. And even those stats say 1 in 20 will die in the first year.

The bottom line is that no matter how much you think weight loss is the answer, it still doesn't work. Even if being fat were unhealthy and losing weight reversed that, weight loss is still not an achieavable remedy. And that is a HUGE if, because the facts just aren't there. I refuse to keep debating fat healthy by the standards of the weight loss industry. What if losing weight were the key to better health? Well, what IF? Prove it. Prove that being fat really is a major health risk without respect to fitness levels. Prove that losing weight actually remedies those risks in a significant manner. Then, prove that there is a safe and achievable way to lose weight. Then we can have a discussion about the right to "choose" to be fat. But until that case is made, "choosing" to be fat isn't a choice at all. We need to approach the health concerns of fat people with a neutral outlook to body weight. Weight loss has had its day. Its had its decades. It hasn't worked. The health and well-being of all fat people demands that we seek a different way.

Oh, and major Kudos to Misty. I can't rep you again soon enough.


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## FitChick (May 26, 2006)

I agree with those who say losing weight does not end all ones' problems. Sometimes it creates NEW ones!

My husband has a female co worker who used to weigh 400 lbs. She kept complaining to him (and anyone who would listen) that "my dr said if I don't lose weight fast, I'm gonna DIE!"

My husband tried turning her on to the idea of fat acceptance, told her she looked great as she was...but no matter WHAT he said, she refused to believe it. She kept whining, "I'm gonna DIE!"

And so, despite what he told her, the info he gave her,etc..she went ahead and had WLS. And the FIRST thing out of her mouth to him after she returned to work after the surgery was, "Now I can get dates!" ("I'm gonna die" my *ss...)

And now, she whines that she can't get dates even though she dropped 200 lbs. Hmm, maybe its the personality, stupid! (sorry, can't resist.) Odd how she never mentions her health anymore either, as a reason for the surgery.

And to make it worse, she started this inane e-mail list which she stuck all the (by this time bored to death) co-workers onto, with stage-by-stage pics of her before and after. As my husband says, "Like anyone cares?!"

She was a bore and a dolt before WLS...and she's STILL one. It didn't solve her problems. And all losing lots of weight did for me was give me an annoying loose skin problem.


Its fat women LIKE THAT that give people the stereotyped idea that fat people are stupid, mindless drones. As much as I disagree with many of the women on this forum, I think if society could be exposed to more intelligent, thinking, diverse fat people (like some here), maybe that stereotype would go the way of the dinosaurs.


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## moonvine (May 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> And so, despite what he told her, the info he gave her,etc..she went ahead and had WLS. And the FIRST thing out of her mouth to him after she returned to work after the surgery was, "Now I can get dates!" ("I'm gonna die" my *ss...)
> 
> And now, she whines that she can't get dates even though she dropped 200 lbs. Hmm, maybe its the personality, stupid! (sorry, can't resist.) Odd how she never mentions her health anymore either, as a reason for the surgery.



She'll probably have to lose closer to 260 or 270 before she will get a lot of dates.


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## FitChick (May 26, 2006)

moonvine said:


> She'll probably have to lose closer to 260 or 270 before she will get a lot of dates.



She could be 140 and wouldn't get any...she is a boring dolt with a "poor me" attitude. Its not the weight, but I doubt she'll see it. There is another co-worker there who is in the 300-325 range, and she is not at any loss for dates....not surprising since she is a beautiful person with a lovely, cheerful personality.


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## LillyBBBW (May 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> I agree with those who say losing weight does not end all ones' problems. Sometimes it creates NEW ones!
> 
> My husband has a female co worker who used to weigh 400 lbs. She kept complaining to him (and anyone who would listen) that "my dr said if I don't lose weight fast, I'm gonna DIE!"
> 
> ...




I agree Anita. Being thin is not going to make a repellant personality easier to tolerate, contrary to popular belief.


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## moonvine (May 26, 2006)

FitChick said:


> She could be 140 and wouldn't get any...she is a boring dolt with a "poor me" attitude. Its not the weight, but I doubt she'll see it. There is another co-worker there who is in the 300-325 range, and she is not at any loss for dates....not surprising since she is a beautiful person with a lovely, cheerful personality.



Then why is it that there are so many beautiful women with lovely, cheerful personalities here who are dateless? (I'm not including myself in this number, btw. I'm not lucky enough to be beautiful. I consider myself the girl next door type).


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## mossystate (May 26, 2006)

I do believe deciding to reduce portion size a bit..reducing the amount of refined sugar one eats...saying no to the 12 times a week fried food habit..is a BIT different than being on some sort of official 'diet'.I cannot believe that people are so fucking militant that they don't see how some other folks are simply making a few healthy decisions and changes...even small changes.Don't become so blinded by the TRUE horrors of diets being shoved down peoples' throats, that you throw every person into that pit!!!
I know diabetics who do not have to take insulin, because they control their diets.I know people who have lost really just a small amount of weight, and it has helped them have less pain when walking....etc..etc.This is different than screaming...WLS..WLS..or..BE THIN!!!


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## moonvine (May 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> I do believe deciding to reduce portion size a bit..reducing the amount of refined sugar one eats...saying no to the 12 times a week fried food habit..is a BIT different than being on some sort of official 'diet'.I cannot believe that people are so fucking militant that they don't see how some other folks are simply making a few healthy decisions and changes...even small changes.Don't become so blinded by the TRUE horrors of diets being shoved down peoples' throats, that you throw every person into that pit!!!
> I know diabetics who do not have to take insulin, because they control their diets.I know people who have lost really just a small amount of weight, and it has helped them have less pain when walking....etc..etc.This is different than screaming...WLS..WLS..or..BE THIN!!!



I think healthy changes are great, but they don't always (or even normally) result in weight loss. I think the real trap is thinking that healthy changes WILL result in weight loss, then becoming discouraged and reverting back to old habits when said changes DON'T result in weight loss (or in only an insignificant amount of weight being lost).


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 26, 2006)

> WHY do you find it so hard to believe that a woman can like having been fat? WHY? I was viciously teased for being underweight as a kid, and THAT is what damaged me. For ME, gaining weight was seen as a relief, because it meant no more teasing, ever, for being "a bag of bones".



Anita, come on. I've been emaciated and I've weighed 160 lbs. I can tell you it's a lot worse to take crap for being fat, even a little fat. I mean, I've gotten "the cringe" from being too thin. It's unpleasant, but nowhere as awful as being called hideous, a pig, etc. I KNOW being thin must be better than dealing with size issues in a bigoted world in the same way being white and straight is easier.

We live in a society that says there's something wrong with a guy who dates fat women. It's only natural fat girls are going to get fewer dates as a result. Hell, I got hit on more now that my hair's a lighter color. Why? People are drawn to a social ideal. (BTW, it's not self-confidence about the hair. I hate my highlights. Please don't tell my mother.) 

I agree with what Mossy said on diet. There's nothing wrong with trying to eat healthier. There's a HUGE difference between improving your diet and "dieting." I eat what I want, in moderation. I know I don't need to eat more than 2000 calories a day, so I don't most days. I don't eat a lot fried foods or fast food, but I also don't freak out if I eat an entire pint of ice cream.


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## mossystate (May 26, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think healthy changes are great, but they don't always (or even normally) result in weight loss. I think the real trap is thinking that healthy changes WILL result in weight loss, then becoming discouraged and reverting back to old habits when said changes DON'T result in weight loss (or in only an insignificant amount of weight being lost).



Oh..no doubt..I agree with you.But I also see how people are almost berated for sharing their successes..whether it is actually losing some weight..or not eating a whole pie every evening...and I am not talking about you..*s*


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 26, 2006)

moonvine said:


> I think healthy changes are great, but they don't always (or even normally) result in weight loss. I think the real trap is thinking that healthy changes WILL result in weight loss, then becoming discouraged and reverting back to old habits when said changes DON'T result in weight loss (or in only an insignificant amount of weight being lost).



YEP! My multi-vitamin has green tea extract. Seemingly great stuff for you, but I tend to doubt its "fat burning abilities." However, blocking cancer-causing carcinogens seems to be a nice benefit, even without weight loss.


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## moonvine (May 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> Oh..no doubt..I agree with you.But I also see how people are almost berated for sharing their successes..whether it is actually losing some weight..or not eating a whole pie every evening...and I am not talking about you..*s*




But don't you see how that type of "success" isn't topical to this board? This is a fat acceptance board. It seems clear to me that weight loss discussion would be off topic here.

I don't know anyone who eats a whole pie every evening. The thought turns my stomach. But I really don't care about what other people don't eat. Or do eat, for that matter.


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## mossystate (May 26, 2006)

moonvine said:


> But don't you see how that type of "success" isn't topical to this board? This is a fat acceptance board. It seems clear to me that weight loss discussion would be off topic here.
> 
> I don't know anyone who eats a whole pie every evening. The thought turns my stomach. But I really don't care about what other people don't eat. Or do eat, for that matter.


 But some say this is also a size acceptance board..perhaps I am not in the know.If this is never a place for real fat people to discuss their real lives..then...be prepared for crickets chirping.I think if this is also a SA place, then we should respect all roads people travel,as long as it is not about saying that fat is evil..gross...bad.


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## moonvine (May 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> But some say this is also a size acceptance board..perhaps I am not in the know.If this is never a place for real fat people to discuss their real lives..then...be prepared for crickets chirping.I think if this is also a SA place, then we should respect all roads people travel,as long as it is not about saying that fat is evil..gross...bad.



Well, I am hoping it is a fat acceptance board. It certainly was in the past, not sure about now. I think "size acceptance" is just a term someone thought up to make "fat acceptance" less threatening. Thin people don't need things like legal protection against discrimination based on size. 

My "real life" as a fat person doesn't include dieting, and unless I completely lose my mind (which is entirely possible) it never will again.


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## Paul Fannin (May 26, 2006)

rainyday said:


> I don't believe one necessarily has to be loud, proud and in someone's face to be an agent of change. Quietly defying stereotypes on a day-to-day basis is also an important part of what carries the momentum along.



I agree Rainy.

I seldom talk about size acceptance. I don't know what's supposed to be accepted

And personally, I don't like the term FA


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## NFA (May 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> But some say this is also a size acceptance board..perhaps I am not in the know.If this is never a place for real fat people to discuss their real lives..then...be prepared for crickets chirping.I think if this is also a SA place, then we should respect all roads people travel,as long as it is not about saying that fat is evil..gross...bad.



Size acceptance IS Fat acceptance. And stigmatizing weight is profoundly un-size accepting. No matter what positive spin is put on it. Regarding weight loss as a success, by definition, stigmatizes and devalues fatness. No matter how a person claims that stigmatization is good, it still stigmatizes and devalues fatness. If someone has come to a place in their life where they recognize the negative impact the omnipresent weight hatred has in our culture, they should be applauded and encouraged. Not berated and lectured about how they should set aside their beliefs because someone else has come along who disagrees. People should have a right to find places that are free from fat stigmatization. This was one such place, and people are right to speak up in favor of that. The continuing encroachment of fat stigmatization and weight-loss celebration is a profoundly bad thing. If someone wants a round of applause for temporarily losing weight, there are lots of places they can turn to. There are far fewer places for a person to turn if they want to get away from such activities. Which is precisely why I cannot accept the notion that those with such few support outlets should have to lay down in favor of those who have so many.


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## mossystate (May 26, 2006)

NFA said:


> Size acceptance IS Fat acceptance. And stigmatizing weight is profoundly un-size accepting. No matter what positive spin is put on it. Regarding weight loss as a success, by definition, stigmatizes and devalues fatness. No matter how a person claims that stigmatization is good, it still stigmatizes and devalues fatness. If someone has come to a place in their life where they recognize the negative impact the omnipresent weight hatred has in our culture, they should be applauded and encouraged. Not berated and lectured about how they should set aside their beliefs because someone else has come along who disagrees. People should have a right to find places that are free from fat stigmatization. This was one such place, and people are right to speak up in favor of that. The continuing encroachment of fat stigmatization and weight-loss celebration is a profoundly bad thing. If someone wants a round of applause for temporarily losing weight, there are lots of places they can turn to. There are far fewer places for a person to turn if they want to get away from such activities. Which is precisely why I cannot accept the notion that those with such few support outlets should have to lay down in favor of those who have so many.



So, a fat person here at Dims(and there is more than one..more than many) who simply is curious about some of the things that might make their lives easier..as FAT people..they should be punished, if they simply mention that for them a couple of pounds lost helped them relieve ACTUAL physical pain.Even if they are not doing it to be thin and they are not wanting to be thin, and they love their fat, but they also want to be more mobile.You say there are places for these people...no..there are NO places for them.It is not about 'celebrating' weight loss(nice way to reduce the people who do lose a few pounds for reasons mentioned) Having said that, I DO understand your 'fear' and perhaps..anger..but Dims can be and IS a place where FAT people can come and be safe.(except for those who want it to be one thing and one thing only)
What you said makes people think and that is never a bad thing..but do not be so angry that you lose sight that there are real live human beings involved in your ideal 'movement'I love that there are people here who have lost quite a bit of weight, yet they rejoice in those who love and live in their bodies exactly how they are..at this moment.When I peruse this site, I think the idea that fat people are beautiful(or should be left the fuck alone) is alive and well.Your attitude is 'all or nothing' and that just makes things even more difficult for the people you claim to want to have a safe place.


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## FitChick (May 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> I do believe deciding to reduce portion size a bit..reducing the amount of refined sugar one eats...saying no to the 12 times a week fried food habit..is a BIT different than being on some sort of official 'diet'.I cannot believe that people are so fucking militant that they don't see how some other folks are simply making a few healthy decisions and changes...even small changes.Don't become so blinded by the TRUE horrors of diets being shoved down peoples' throats, that you throw every person into that pit!!!
> I know diabetics who do not have to take insulin, because they control their diets.I know people who have lost really just a small amount of weight, and it has helped them have less pain when walking....etc..etc.This is different than screaming...WLS..WLS..or..BE THIN!!!



THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR THAT POST!

Sadean: It may be that being teased for being fat can be worse than being teased for being thin...I was never teased when I was fat, so I wouldn't know. My entire negative body experiences happened when I was a kid, and "underweight" (not only did I get viciously teased by other kids and had food thrown at me, the damn school nurse kept making me take notes home telling my mom to take me to the dr because I was "underweight".)

I think its all about experience....a child teased for being fat would most likely grow to hate her fatness. A child teased for being thin would most likely grow to hate her thinness. I cannot tell you how *good* I felt years ago when I first started gaining weight...it was as if a cocoon of safety had been placed around me...I felt taunt-free (and thankfully, I was never teased for becoming fat so I was lucky.)


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## rainyday (May 26, 2006)

mossystate said:


> So, a fat person here at Dims(and there is more than one..more than many) who simply is curious about some of the things that might make their lives easier..as FAT people..they should be punished, if they simply mention that for them a couple of pounds lost helped them relieve ACTUAL physical pain.Even if they are not doing it to be thin and they are not wanting to be thin, and they love their fat, but they also want to be more mobile.You say there are places for these people...no..there are NO places for them.It is not about 'celebrating' weight loss(nice way to reduce the people who do lose a few pounds for reasons mentioned) Having said that, I DO understand your 'fear' and perhaps..anger..but Dims can be and IS a place where FAT people can come and be safe.(except for those who want it to be one thing and one thing only)
> What you said makes people think and that is never a bad thing..but do not be so angry that you lose sight that there are real live human beings involved in your ideal 'movement'I love that there are people here who have lost quite a bit of weight, yet they rejoice in those who love and live in their bodies exactly how they are..at this moment.When I peruse this site, I think the idea that fat people are beautiful(or should be left the fuck alone) is alive and well.Your attitude is 'all or nothing' and that just makes things even more difficult for the people you claim to want to have a safe place.



Well said, Mo.


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## TheSadeianLinguist (May 26, 2006)

On a level of pure convenience, it's easier being thin. If you were really 300 lbs. at one point, Anita, especially if you were pear-shaped, you would have had hellacious problemings with seating, fitting, etc. Enough to make you a bit frustrated and at least have some preference of being thin now, even if no one said a word to you about being fat. (Frankly, I doubt it, especially if you'd been a size six previously.)


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## FitChick (May 28, 2006)

TheSadeianLinguist said:


> On a level of pure convenience, it's easier being thin. If you were really 300 lbs. at one point, Anita, especially if you were pear-shaped, you would have had hellacious problemings with seating, fitting, etc. Enough to make you a bit frustrated and at least have some preference of being thin now, even if no one said a word to you about being fat. (Frankly, I doubt it, especially if you'd been a size six previously.)



Let's just say that YOUR experience is not EVERYONE's experience.

BTW what does that "if you were really 300 lbs" mean? There are those on this forum who have seen pics of me when I was 300 lbs (and also after), so I guess you're not one of them?


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 28, 2006)

Now that's a very interesting phrase! I think a woman should just be happy to be whom she is. One need not be a fat activist to be happy with oneself.




ripley said:


> In Boteroesque Babe's thread about coming out, a poster referred to a politician's wife as a "reluctant BBW." As if this was a mark against her somehow. Is she not a "real" BBW then? Does a fat woman have to be gung-ho about being fat to represent? Is it a choice between being a cheerleader-for-fat woman in our camp versus a reluctant fat woman who hangs on to hope of an inclusion into the normal-sized person's camp?
> 
> I'm not sure if I've said what I mean here clearly (surprise surprise ) but I didn't want to hijack BoBabe's thread, and I want to know what all of you good people think.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 28, 2006)

Nobody should be discriminated against in this culture. I'm glad to see that Americans are getting heavier. Who knows? With more heavy people in this country and a size acceptance movement, things might get better!




grey1969 said:


> Maybe you misinterpreted what he was saying because I think he was actually in agreement with you. For me the role of a group like NAAFA is to advocate for fat people. We are talking about people who are significantly above the 'norm' to the point where many believe they are justified in discriminating against and disrespecting said fat people. This is clearly a serious civil rights issue. The idea of supporting those of roughly 'normal' weight who have body-image issues or feel discriminated against because they are not a size two with a model figure should remain separate because this is not the same kind of a civil rights issue in my opinion (more so it is part of the issues around women's battle for equality).
> 
> I used the term size acceptance in posting above because I assumed this might be the more preferred term in this venue. However, the official position here is that 'fat' is not a bad word, so I will use the term fat acceptance in the future.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 28, 2006)

Nothing is sexier than a well-dressed fat woman!




FitChick said:


> I never really believed that until I put it into practice. I was fat but didn't take much care as to how I looked....and guess what? No one flirted with me or complimented me. It wasn't that I didn't like myself, I was just so busy taking care of the kids that I put my own looks on the back burner so to speak.
> 
> But once I decided to START dressing nicely, wearing makeup, in general, taking better care of my looks FOR ME, I FELT better AND people started noticing me. And the better I felt I looked, the better I carried myself, and the more compliments I got. I didnt do it for others, but FOR ME (and I have the fat acceptance mvmt to thank for it because it was in reading fat acceptance stuff that I made the decision to take better care of myself.)


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## MoonGoddess (May 28, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> Nobody should be discriminated against in this culture. I'm glad to see that Americans are getting heavier. Who knows? With more heavy people in this country and a size acceptance movement, things might get better!




*We certainly can hope. But as long as the media is being controlled by a select group of individuals who find heroin chick attractive and insist on using anorexic thirteen year olds as the "faces of beauty", I wouldn't hold out any significant changes in the near future. 

That's just me though...

MoonGoddess*


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 28, 2006)

That is true but unfortunate. Maybe someone should put a spell on them to get them to see things differently.




MoonGoddess said:


> *We certainly can hope. But as long as the media is being controlled by a select group of individuals who find heroin chick attractive and insist on using anorexic thirteen year olds as the "faces of beauty", I wouldn't hold out any significant changes in the near future.
> 
> That's just me though...
> 
> MoonGoddess*


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## MoonGoddess (May 28, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> That is true but unfortunate. Maybe someone should put a spell on them to get them to see things differently.




*Somehow I don't think it would work. At least not quickly enough for my liking.

MoonGoddess*


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 28, 2006)

You're probably right. If this were the fantasy world as Terry Goodkind sees it, I could start a chainfire event to cause people to forget their prejudices against large people. And then I could get them to see things as we do.

Alas, though, even in the fantasy world, the best way to overcome prejudice is by changing one person at a time. Such a wonderful world, isn't it, MoonGoddess?




MoonGoddess said:


> *Somehow I don't think it would work. At least not quickly enough for my liking.
> 
> MoonGoddess*


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## PolarKat (May 28, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> You're probably right. If this were the fantasy world as Terry Goodkind sees it, I could start a chainfire event to cause people to forget their prejudices against large people. And then I could get them to see things as we do.



I think even if that were possible, you wouldn't notice much of a change..


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 29, 2006)

Don't throw water on my blanket! I know this is a very conservative culture. Look how long it took folks to become more accepting of black people, gay people and liberated women. I'm simply fantasizing and having fun.


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## PolarKat (May 29, 2006)

CurvaceousBBWLover said:


> Don't throw water on my blanket! I know this is a very conservative culture. Look how long it took folks to become more accepting of black people, gay people and liberated women. I'm simply fantasizing and having fun.



Can't help it.. people made me a pessimist when it comes to that "kum ba ya" thing around the campfire.. My parents never ever used any slurs or anything of that nature ever against anyone, so I was clueless. My first best friend (kindergarden->highscool) was a black guy.. At the time I didn't have a clue about my own ethnicity.. actually I didn't know anyone was different in any way.. let alone did I even have the concept in my mind what a black person was, he was just the "funest/coolest" guy there, we liked the same comic books, cartoons, hobbies.. we were the same, and we were inseperable.. well one day those other kids decided to tease the (insert color slur) and (insert ethnic slur) and our little happy world came crashing down, after our parents explained it to us.. The world said hello and it's been downhill from there..


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## missaf (May 29, 2006)

I raise my son without prejudice, to be tolerant of people around him and to treat them with the same respect he would want. Though I teach him that some people do things that are wrong, I teach him that their actions are wrong, and they are still people who deserve respect.

It's quite a shock for him sometimes to see people who aren't accepting, and he tells me what they're doing wrong, and how he knows that he wouldn't want someone to think of him that way. It's a cold cruel world out there, and even if we teach our kids the right way to do things, they're going to have to be exposed to the wrong, too. I can only hope he finds friends that will reinforce those values to make it easier when reality really crashes down.


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 29, 2006)

If I am blessed with children, I will do the same. People should be judged based on how they treat other people, not what background they came from.

I've never understood prejudice, hatred or discrimination. Each of these is an evil based on a false social construct like race, religion, body size, sexual orientation, or social class. We are all human and that is what is important.




missaf said:


> I raise my son without prejudice, to be tolerant of people around him and to treat them with the same respect he would want. Though I teach him that some people do things that are wrong, I teach him that their actions are wrong, and they are still people who deserve respect.
> 
> It's quite a shock for him sometimes to see people who aren't accepting, and he tells me what they're doing wrong, and how he knows that he wouldn't want someone to think of him that way. It's a cold cruel world out there, and even if we teach our kids the right way to do things, they're going to have to be exposed to the wrong, too. I can only hope he finds friends that will reinforce those values to make it easier when reality really crashes down.


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## PolarKat (May 29, 2006)

If only more parents were that way! 
But it'll never really be solved people always find some sort of group/tribe to join then start hating some other.. Something as simple as country, sports teams, politics.. it all just another level of the same thing. Just following those illegal alien threads shows it well.. humanities irrational "us vs. them" syndrome..


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## CurvaceousBBWLover (May 29, 2006)

Amen to that. Tribalism (and the hatreds and rivalries that come with it) will be the death of the human race.




PolarKat said:


> If only more parents were that way!
> But it'll never really be solved people always find some sort of group/tribe to join then start hating some other.. Something as simple as country, sports teams, politics.. it all just another level of the same thing. Just following those illegal alien threads shows it well.. humanities irrational "us vs. them" syndrome..


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