# What happened to the old Dimensions?



## Jay West Coast

What happened to the old Dimensions?

Lately, Ive felt like Dimensions is undergoing weight loss surgery. There are all sorts of sharp knives around, internal organs are getting messed up, and the website is bound to wind up half the size of what it used to be after its all through. 

There was a time when Dimensions wasnt like this. There was a time when Dimensions was a retreat space from the fat-phobic world, offering an alternative way of thinking about the world. It was a collective of people who were willing to think differentlyat times almost revolutionarilyabout what fat was, what it meant, and what it could be. We were full of imagination, creativity, love, excitement and joyful self-exploration as a community of like-minded people. 

Dimensions mattered. It was productive because it was honest, full, real and inventive. There was this acknowledgement that we all were coming at the fat question from different angles, and may even wind up in different places, but were inevitably in communion with everyone else on the boards simply by the fact that we were there. As more people logged in, the more FAs found they could confidently support the struggles of fat women and the more fat women could see that there was another narrative about fat bodies than the one they were told as kids. The stories were real, and the relationships inspired. 

For me, it was the confidence and freedom of other older FAs that taught me to be the same. I learned from other FAs and from fat women how to live into being an FA. When you think youre alone in the way you think, you assume youre twisted and feel the compulsion to repress. But when you know that there is a community to hash out your best thoughts and craziest thoughts, you learn how to grow up handsomely. As messy as it sounds, its a beautiful intentional place for us to engage inclusively regardless of our vast differences and our inevitable social errors. It was in that place that I was willing to try my 21-year-old hand at participating in my own self-discovery and to the evolution of the community I was born into.

For a guy like me, the Boards composition worked marvellously well. They brilliantly combined fat sexuality with the political movement. The truth is that you cant have one without the other. Fat politics are inexorably about our bodies and body imagewhich is ruthlessly rooted in our individual sexualities. We are inevitably forced to address the depths of what fat sexuality is in order to truthfully address fat as a valid body form. Likewise, fat sexualitys health depends directly on the success of fat politics. The reason is two-fold: the legitimisation of fat attraction depends on the legitimisation of fat as a body type; and as you fall in love with a fat partner, you yearn to live in a world that treats her as beautifully as it would if she were thin. Fat sexuality and fat politics are co-dependant and benefit greatly from each others existence. And Dimensions did that so well that at one time it was the fifth-most active English forum on the web.

As we all know, eventually Dimensions began to suffer from recycled content. After a while, it seemed that the same threads started to pop up over and over. Ten years on the forums can do that. But after awhile, in that vacuum of fervour, there grew a general undertone of dissatisfaction. Dissatisfaction with all sorts of things, Im sure. But unfortunately this time these issues became about individual people, and the climate developed wherein it was expected that problems could be fixed by demonizing certain members. 

This is gravely unfortunate for a number of reasons. Firstly, it allows our community to become introverted and lose sight of the potential we have in front of us. Secondly, it also is likely for us to say things that are untrue and hurtful about people who are probably wonderful allies. And above all, it divides us. In a world where we are already the quiet minority, we now exhaust our energies on criticising our fat brothers, sisters, and friends. People that would otherwise learn in love to appreciate fat as positive and share that way with the world are instead fighting for their self-esteem in the midst of recycled critiques. Suddenly, everyone is expected to be on one side or another. Its painful to see, because there arent really any sides. We are the convergence of ideas, we are co-conspirers in a vision, we are inevitably very much in the same boat. When one of us is demonized, were all demonized. When were impatient with one person, were short-changing the whole community. 

What is more powerful than seeing a community that supports one another? What is better than the thin world looking in and seeing a diverse group of people using the internet to powerfully edify each other? We can and should be the model for why fat and fat sexuality ought not to scare the world. We are beautiful--we have to see that in each other, and to be that for ourselves and the generations that come after us. 

In short, lets put the knives awaywe can be a beautiful community without the weight loss surgery.


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## thatgirl08

I think it's interesting you chose to use WLS as an analogy for the degradation of the community. It seems that "coming at the fat question from from different angles" would include those who have had or are considering having WLS. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong with this post, I'm just saying that the quest to "put the knives away" needs to begin somewhere.. maybe that place is extending sensitivty to those who aren't 100% happy and healthy being fat.


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## Blackjack




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## mossystate

thatgirl08 said:


> I think it's interesting you chose to use WLS as an analogy for the degradation of the community. It seems that "coming at the fat question from from different angles" would include those who have had or are considering having WLS. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong with this post, I'm just saying that the quest to "put the knives away" needs to begin somewhere.. maybe that place is extending sensitivty to those who aren't 100% happy and healthy being fat.



It is more than interesting. It is very telling. I think many people, in the past, were dealing with a ' honeymoon ' phase, if you will. The original purpose of the site was always there, it is just that I think more people wanted to hope. Hope can do a number on people, yes, even when something has been plainly spelled out for them. When there are few places open after 10PM, you do with what you have, until you need more. The more and more that reality was felt, and the natural expression that would of course ensue, that is when there were ' problems '. Of course Dims is going to feel better for ' fa's ' ( in general, and in more ways ) than it will to fat people ( in general, and in more ways ). The thing is, Dims was never all that " full ". I am not saying that it can...or should...be all things to all people, but to suggest that if everybody had just seen the person next them as a comrade, and not an ' enemy '....well, that, to me, is just more bury your head in the sand thinking. Yeah, there is always going to be personality clashes, but to not want to see what was a hell of a lot more than that, then the chair I get as a fat person, is sure going to feel less cushy than the one an fa is sitting on. That's fine for the site, as it does get to be what it wants to be, but please do try and understand that there is more to ' it ' for a hell of a lot of people. That has to mean more than a few people are disgruntled. Trust me...if I were an fa, I might, at least secretly, be saying " this could be nirvana like in the past...please let's get back to the good old days...shhhhh ".


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## kayrae

<3..........


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## Paquito

Make this thread a sticky kthanksbye


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## curvalicious

very well said


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## Tooz

thatgirl08 said:


> I think it's interesting you chose to use WLS as an analogy for the degradation of the community. It seems that "coming at the fat question from from different angles" would include those who have had or are considering having WLS. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong with this post, I'm just saying that the quest to "put the knives away" needs to begin somewhere.. maybe that place is extending sensitivty to those who aren't 100% happy and healthy being fat.



I agree with this. This is not to say Jay doesn't have a good post, but I feel like (while I don't think I'd ever have WLS) the ban on WLS talk is one of the things doing more harm than good. Maybe the initial reason for the rule was to keep out Jackie Guerra-types, but I think it has moved beyond that to something damaging. I think it is immature (in a very "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" kind of way) to bar all WLS discussion on the boards, and bar MOST types of WLS discussion on the WLS board. Hell, what I'm saying NOW might get deleted. At any rate, I think it is a potentially hurtful analogy, possibly made more so by coming from the mouth of an FA (maybe it's a double standard, but I don't care).

All this being said, I do agree that Dims has been on a decline. A lot of the posters of substance have left, or been banned. I remember there being more good discussion than this.


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## LoveBHMS

I agree that using the WLS analogy was not a good idea, however the ban on WLS talk is really not the problem, since it's been in place for years and in fact as far as i know, there was not even a board for it at all at one point.

While i personally agree that WLS talk and talk about weight loss in general should be allowed, i also don't think the fact that they aren't is a big part of the problem either.

IMO, as somebody who's been here for a few years and who has stopped posting on parts of this board, the major problem is the fucking malcontent, angry, reactionary attitude on the part of a core group of posters who are a lot more interested in a constant fight and maintaining a constant state of anger than they are in the actual purpose of Dims. It's frankly annoying and the unending negativity that exudes from certain people is the main reason for the exodus of numerous formerly active posters. 

It's beyond me why people who are unhappy with Dims continue to stay here and bitch about Dims being something it's not. If you like some of what this place has to offer, stay and partake and go elsewhere when you want or need something that isn't here. If you're angry about how the site is run or moderated, either deal with it or fucking LEAVE. 

Coming here for the sole purpose of complaining you don't like it is tantamount to spending hours a day at the hardware store complaining that they don't sell golf clubs. If you want golf clubs, go to a sporting goods store. You may really really like the location of the hardware store, you may love the other regular customers and the prices may be great, but they don't sell golf clubs and they're not gonna start merely because you feel like shopping there.

The people who've left didn't leave because of a ban on weight loss talk, they left primarly because the negativity is too much to take.



> When there are few places open after 10PM, you do with what you have, until you need more. The more and more that reality was felt, and the natural expression that would of course ensue, that is when there were ' problems '.



Well now there are numerous places open after 10PM. One of the mods here even actively promotes one of them. So now you and others have choices. Given that, why are you still constantly bitching about this place?


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## thatgirl08

Tooz said:


> I agree with this. This is not to say Jay doesn't have a good post, but I feel like (while I don't think I'd ever have WLS) the ban on WLS talk is one of the things doing more harm than good. Maybe the initial reason for the rule was to keep out Jackie Guerra-types, but I think it has moved beyond that to something damaging. I think it is immature (in a very "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" kind of way) to bar all WLS discussion on the boards, and bar MOST types of WLS discussion on the WLS board. Hell, what I'm saying NOW might get deleted. At any rate, I think it is a potentially hurtful analogy, possibly made more so by coming from the mouth of an FA (maybe it's a double standard, but I don't care).
> 
> All this being said, I do agree that Dims has been on a decline. A lot of the posters of substance have left, or been banned. I remember there being more good discussion than this.



Yep, agreed with all of the above.


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## TraciJo67

I need not look any further than some of the responses in this thread to understand what is wrong with Dims.

Some people will not - perhaps cannot - step up and take some personal responsibility for their own contributions. Using angry, hostile language to describe how angry and hostile "other" people are is, at best, very counter-productive. 

Also, I think that it misses the point and the intent of Jay's post. While I'm not overly thrilled with the WLS angle, I understood why it was used, and that it is somewhat apt as a comparison -- if, that is, we remove the human element from the term and approach it as more of an analogy.

I didn't agree with everything that you said, Jay -- but I did like that you are seeing the issues as a whole, and not as the sum of individual parts. And also, that the "us" vs "them" mentality is what is harming ALL of us.


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## Jon Blaze

Jay West Coast said:


> What happened to the old Dimensions?
> 
> 
> 
> For a guy like me, the Boards’ composition worked marvellously well. They brilliantly combined fat sexuality with the political movement. The truth is that you can’t have one without the other. Fat politics are inexorably about our bodies and body image—which is ruthlessly rooted in our individual sexualities. We are inevitably forced to address the depths of what fat sexuality is in order to truthfully address fat as a valid body form. Likewise, fat sexuality’s health depends directly on the success of fat politics. The reason is two-fold: the legitimisation of fat attraction depends on the legitimisation of fat as a body type; and as you fall in love with a fat partner, you yearn to live in a world that treats her as beautifully as it would if she were thin. Fat sexuality and fat politics are co-dependant and benefit greatly from each other’s existence. And Dimensions did that so well that at one time it was the fifth-most active English forum on the web.



I don't agree with that, BUT the gist of this and the rest of it? "I bow to your skills!" :bow:


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## Donna

LoveBHMS said:


> I agree that using the WLS analogy was not a good idea, however the ban on WLS talk is really not the problem, since it's been in place for years and in fact as far as i know, there was not even a board for it at all at one point.
> 
> While i personally agree that WLS talk and talk about weight loss in general should be allowed, i also don't think the fact that they aren't is a big part of the problem either.
> 
> IMO, as somebody who's been here for a few years and who has stopped posting on parts of this board, the major problem is the fucking malcontent, angry, reactionary attitude on the part of a core group of posters who are a lot more interested in a constant fight and maintaining a constant state of anger than they are in the actual purpose of Dims. It's frankly annoying and the unending negativity that exudes from certain people is the main reason for the exodus of numerous formerly active posters.
> 
> It's beyond me why people who are unhappy with Dims continue to stay here and bitch about Dims being something it's not. If you like some of what this place has to offer, stay and partake and go elsewhere when you want or need something that isn't here. If you're angry about how the site is run or moderated, either deal with it or fucking LEAVE.
> 
> Coming here for the sole purpose of complaining you don't like it is tantamount to spending hours a day at the hardware store complaining that they don't sell golf clubs. If you want golf clubs, go to a sporting goods store. You may really really like the location of the hardware store, you may love the other regular customers and the prices may be great, but they don't sell golf clubs and they're not gonna start merely because you feel like shopping there.
> 
> The people who've left didn't leave because of a ban on weight loss talk, they left primarly because the negativity is too much to take.
> *snip*



Perhaps, and I am just spit-balling here, But I am fairly certain the issue is a little more complex than just this perceived negativity you keep mentioning. Just as I am also sure that the no-WLS talk isnt the entire reason either (on that point we agree.) Surely you dont believe that this core group you keep alluding to (which I am sure you lump me in with since I have disagreed rather strongly with you in the past) is the sole reason for all the discord at Dimensions? No one can be that obtuse. Considering your posting history, I guess I should not be surprised that you would point fingers at anyone whom you disagree with. Im surprised you didnt talk about the fact that you feel bullied. 

Whats happening here at Dimensions is not simple and it cant be pinned to one person, or even one group of people. If that were the case, we would have seen a mass exodus because of Vince back in the day. Or Evoc, even. Those were two of the most polarizing posters that come to my mind immediately. Yeah, Ive been around that long. I may not be the most prolific of posters, but Ive been around since Dimensions was a paper magazine and Ive seen a lot of changes, a lot of ebbs and flows. 

There is no doubt this is a living, breathing community. Too often I think a lot of us forget that there is a living human being behind the little avatar and the text on the screen. And because the community is compromised of these living, breathing beings, it is a living breathing being itself. And as such, it goes through changes. Some good, some bad. Thats life. Perhaps this is why some posters stay and complain; fight for what they believe to be their community. They are emotionally vested in this microcosm and dont want to just leave. Surely I dont have to remind you that you were not so kindly asked to leave plenty of times, and banned at one point. You appealed to Conrad to come back because the pull for you was that strong. You needed Dimensions to satisfy a need you have, just like those you are demonizing ad nauseaum need something here. They are whole human beings, and they cannot be comfortable relegating themselves to only taking bits and pieces.

And I have no doubt that many of the more prolific people have moved on, but again they didnt leave due to any single incident or poster. I know several who have moved on, even more who are contemplating it, some who cannot come back here because they are blocked, and I pretty much have one foot out the door myself. We all have different perspectives and its those perspectives that are driving our decisions. We are all travelers on the road to our own peace, and sometimes that road leads us away from places and people. None of us has the right to judge anothers reasons for doing what they feel are in their own best interest. This isnt about any one faction or any one person.


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## LovelyLiz

I appreciate this post, Jay. Thanks for taking the time to write it and share your thoughts.

And I didn't initially catch on to the WLS thing being an issue, but I think that's only because it's not much on my radar. But it makes sense that it could sting a bit, and be unfair, coming from a thin person who doesn't experience life from the inside of a very fat body. I imagine you just meant it as a metaphorical device though, and I am quite certain that you didn't intend harm.

In the spirit of wanting to build up camaraderie and not contribute to the factiony, fighty stuff, I am going to take the spirit of the advice in that famous Gandhi quotation, that I think just applies to most parts of life from very minor (e.g., a web forum) to major (like broad social change): "Be the change you wish to see in the world." Instead of feeling the need to point out everywhere I disagree with someone, I am going to instead just strive to embody the kind of positive, personhood-affirming, supportive environment that I would like more of here. In other words, I'll try to..."be the change I wish to see" in Dimensions.


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## joswitch

mcbeth said:


> In the spirit of wanting to build up camaraderie and not contribute to the factiony, fighty stuff, I am going to take the spirit of the advice in that famous Gandhi quotation, that I think just applies to most parts of life from very minor (e.g., a web forum) to major (like broad social change): "Be the change you wish to see in the world." Instead of feeling the need to point out everywhere I disagree with someone, I am going to instead just strive to embody the kind of positive, personhood-affirming, supportive environment that I would like more of here. In other words, I'll try to..."be the change I wish to see" in Dimensions.



*Applause* for this and Jay's post too... I don't know that Dims was ever all that, but I like the aspiration he's putting forward!


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## Dmitra

Jay West Coast said:


> Secondly, it also is likely for us to say things that are untrue and hurtful about people who are probably wonderful allies. And above all, it divides us. In a world where we are already the quiet minority, we now exhaust our energies on criticising our fat brothers, sisters, and friends. People that would otherwise learn in love to appreciate fat as positive and share that way with the world are instead fighting for their self-esteem in the midst of recycled critiques. Suddenly, everyone is expected to be on one side or another. Its painful to see, because there arent really any sides.



The entire post is dead-on and this fragment resounded the loudest for me. The simile of WLS is appropriate, as well: It is a brutal, medieval, and ultimately unproductive attack upon the entire self, similar to the constant vitriolic tearing into people's virtual bodies of expression on a supposedly civil forum. Even in this thread the knives have come out against previous perceptions and words.

Is it western society's decline in formality? Is it basic primordial selfishness? I have no idea and less inclination to work on understanding what I can't really do anything about, anyway. I'm completely inclined to just walk away, ignoring the problems. But, I've been on the other side of being ignored, and it hurts, and I find myself sticking around to not succumb to dismay.


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## thechampofchamps

I don't know if anybody will get what i'm trying to say, but I see dimensions Website as like the Joe Louis of Fat acceptance, when fat acceptance needs an Ali website and forum.


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## LoveBHMS

> Surely you dont believe that this core group you keep alluding to (which I am sure you lump me in with since I have disagreed rather strongly with you in the past) is the sole reason for all the discord at Dimensions?



No, i don't lump you in with anyone i was thinking of.



> Im surprised you didnt talk about the fact that you feel bullied.



I no longer get bullied since i quit posting about certain personal topics. Yes I did used to feel bullied but I fixed that problem by simply not posting anymore on the Weight Board and quit posting about things that brought out the bullies.


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## butch

Ahh, speaking of Evoc, I sometimes wonder about her.


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## Ash

butch said:


> Ahh, speaking of Evoc, I sometimes wonder about her.



Oh god, now there's a name I haven't heard in a while.


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## exile in thighville

man, evoc8ive was from my town and i almost met her before she went psycho on me


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## Green Eyed Fairy

Donna said:


> Perhaps, and I am just spit-balling here, But I am fairly certain the issue is a little more complex than just this perceived negativity you keep mentioning. Just as I am also sure that the no-WLS talk isnt the entire reason either (on that point we agree.) Surely you dont believe that this core group you keep alluding to (which I am sure you lump me in with since I have disagreed rather strongly with you in the past) is the sole reason for all the discord at Dimensions? No one can be that obtuse. Considering your posting history, I guess I should not be surprised that you would point fingers at anyone whom you disagree with. Im surprised you didnt talk about the fact that you feel bullied.
> 
> Whats happening here at Dimensions is not simple and it cant be pinned to one person, or even one group of people. If that were the case, we would have seen a mass exodus because of Vince back in the day. Or Evoc, even. Those were two of the most polarizing posters that come to my mind immediately. Yeah, Ive been around that long. I may not be the most prolific of posters, but Ive been around since Dimensions was a paper magazine and Ive seen a lot of changes, a lot of ebbs and flows.
> 
> There is no doubt this is a living, breathing community. Too often I think a lot of us forget that there is a living human being behind the little avatar and the text on the screen. And because the community is compromised of these living, breathing beings, it is a living breathing being itself. And as such, it goes through changes. Some good, some bad. Thats life. Perhaps this is why some posters stay and complain; fight for what they believe to be their community. They are emotionally vested in this microcosm and dont want to just leave. Surely I dont have to remind you that you were not so kindly asked to leave plenty of times, and banned at one point. You appealed to Conrad to come back because the pull for you was that strong. You needed Dimensions to satisfy a need you have, just like those you are demonizing ad nauseaum need something here. They are whole human beings, and they cannot be comfortable relegating themselves to only taking bits and pieces.
> 
> And I have no doubt that many of the more prolific people have moved on, but again they didnt leave due to any single incident or poster. I know several who have moved on, even more who are contemplating it, some who cannot come back here because they are blocked, and I pretty much have one foot out the door myself. We all have different perspectives and its those perspectives that are driving our decisions. We are all travelers on the road to our own peace, and sometimes that road leads us away from places and people. None of us has the right to judge anothers reasons for doing what they feel are in their own best interest. This isnt about any one faction or any one person.



I think you just said it all perfectly :bow:


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## Lamia

Blackjack said:


>



*sigh* Orson Wells was so hot. :wubu:


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## kayrae

you're right. i should've just done that all along. turning the other cheek is so annoying though 



mcbeth said:


> I appreciate this post, Jay. Thanks for taking the time to write it and share your thoughts.
> 
> And I didn't initially catch on to the WLS thing being an issue, but I think that's only because it's not much on my radar. But it makes sense that it could sting a bit, and be unfair, coming from a thin person who doesn't experience life from the inside of a very fat body. I imagine you just meant it as a metaphorical device though, and I am quite certain that you didn't intend harm.
> 
> In the spirit of wanting to build up camaraderie and not contribute to the factiony, fighty stuff, I am going to take the spirit of the advice in that famous Gandhi quotation, that I think just applies to most parts of life from very minor (e.g., a web forum) to major (like broad social change): *"Be the change you wish to see in the world." Instead of feeling the need to point out everywhere I disagree with someone, I am going to instead just strive to embody the kind of positive, personhood-affirming, supportive environment that I would like more of here. In other words, I'll try to..."be the change I wish to see" in Dimensions*.


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## Aswani

butch said:


> Ahh, speaking of Evoc, I sometimes wonder about her.



Evoc is pretty open about her weight loss surgery three years ago. She still goes under that name on WLS blogs and is very happy with her new life. Although the success of WLS might not be something to be mentioned on this particular board.

But yes, Evoc is still around and kicking.


http://www.obesityhelp.com/forums/a...064/a,messageboard/action,memberPosts/page,8/

She even has a video of herself on youtube under her Evoc8ive name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQzNBmUA4Qo


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## CurvaceousBBWLover

I sometimes have the same question. We should be uplifting each other instead of demonizing each other for not having opinions we agree with.

I think what is happening is that people are letting the daily attacks on their self esteem fill them with resentment. They focus their resentments on other posters in order to feel better about their own miserable lives.


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## Tau

I think the problem with Dims is that the honeymoon period really is over - as some body else said earlier. Most people here are over that whole wonderful rush when you first discover an entire community of people who look like you do and love it, or love the way you look and aren't afraid to express it. 

The feeling I've often gotten since I began posting here last year was that there are a lot of fat people, most of them fat women, who want FA's to see them and acknowledge them and their fat for every aspect of it - not just the fantasy or the perceived beauty. There are threads I've read where it feels like people are screaming "Look at me!! All of me!!!" and the people being screamed at are resentful about being forced to leave the fantasy and face the reality. And telling these fatties who want to talk change, who want to talk about how the fat hurts them, to go away is not solving anything and it cheapens the entire purpose of this forum and this community. You can't shut out that reality - its like trying to jerk off to a picture of a beautiful body and ignoring the fact that the eyes are full of pain and tears. Its not cool and its not right and saying over and over again that its your fantasy doesn't make it ok. 

That said i don't think its right to jump on people who share about getting turned on about things that actually hurt the objects of their desire. I don't get how my breaking furniture in public areas gives you a boner when for me its something I regard with abject terror and humiliation but I'll leave your boner alone as long as you don't rub it in my face on boards that are not for the discussion of eroticism or about your boner. That seems really simple to me

Another thing I've noticed is the endless, boring snark. So many people here seem afraid of being sincere and cannot bear the thought of being wrong - or simply agreeing to disagree. We're not all going to agree with each other over everything all the time - we don't have to. And shouting YOU'REWRONGYOU'REWRONGYOU'REWRONG!!! at the person you're attacking just doesn't solve anything!

Also, a lot of bad manners. We were all raised differently, I understand that, but certain people here have a way of posting giant, rude, red herrings that ensure the entire conversation just unravels. I've seen posts here that are badly spelt but mostly harmless where the OP is completely torn to shreds and you get this sense of snotty superiority that just tarnishes the entire conversation. Or somebody who is perceived by the group to be boring or annoying suddenly getting shat on from a dizzy height for posting harmless, if boring, responses or threads.

I also hate all the protected forums bull. I get why they're there, fully and 100% I enjoy many of the things posted on the BBW forum for instance - but I cannot stand the endless: You can't post here cos you're not ABCD. Really. Boring. And the best conversation killer ever. For me it just shows how little respect we have for each other and our differing opinions. The whole '5 years ago you said my head was too big and so I'll keep stalking your threads and making your life hell,' is agonizingly annoying. Really dudes - really??? if somebody has pissed you off let them know it - set up a duel at dawn - meet up to beat the living crap out of them - but keep it out of the threads!!

Finally what the OP said in this thread about us being a minority :bow:. I've had a major, major crisis of faith in this community. I get that the cool thing is to claim not have ever believed in the community, to dismiss the feelings that places like this stir in me, to trivialise the connections I've made here, but I can't. Places like this mean something. I've never, ever had a conversation with a fat girl in my world who thinks and feels like so many of the amazing fat women here think and feel. It means so much to me that I can come to Dims and my other internet realities and talk to people who move me, who make me stronger, who make me laugh, who piss me off, who make me horny  In conclusion - we are, for the most, all very clever people. The forum shouldn't be a place where you try and prove it and prove it and prove it. 

I hope things get better here - I'd certainly like to see the Dims of which Jay spoke.


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## Tarella

All I can say is, yet again you articulate so well what many of us feel and would like to express. Excellent post Jay


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## chicken legs

I lurked hardcore (library and art section) before I actually joined in 07 and even then I avoided the boards except for the BHM/FFA area. It wasn't until December 08' that I really started posting because my social life IRL (still not used to using all these abbreviations) slowed down (kids will do that to ya).

One thing I noticed back then, is that FA's really didn't post very much, much less FFAs. If they did, it was really kinda pc. So when more out spoken Fa's like myself, who know the difference btw fantasy and reality, started posting it seemed to shake things up a bit.


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## steve-aka

I agree with Jay, things have been changing around Dims, not only for the worst but for the best. I think the many posts in this thread prove just that. Sure there's divisiveness but there's also support too. My hope remains high for this place

As for the no weight loss talk rule, I firmly support it. This is a place to celebrate fatness and garner acceptance of it as a beautiful attribute. Dimensions is a safe harbor from the daily bombardment of lipophobia so prevalent in society and propagated by the mass media inducting fat people into the thought patterns of how they'd be healthier, happier, smarter, prettier, richer and more successful if they just lost weight. Sure, we all know the health risks involved in being fat, we're not stupid - at least not most of us. And we're not so lost in fantasy - at least not most of us - that we can't see how being larger than average size can be limiting in certain situations. However, can't we have at least one place where fat people congregate to talk about serious issues beyond sex that also doesn't talk about losing weight? I think Dimensions does a good job of focusing on ways to help fat people learn how to live with being fat in a world geared for the thin. If one wants to lose weight, that's fine. But please don't talk about it here, there are a million other places to do that outside of these forums.


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## TallFatSue

steve-aka said:


> I agree with Jay, things have been changing around Dims, not only for the worst but for the best. I think the many posts in this thread prove just that. Sure there's divisiveness but there's also support too. My hope remains high for this place


Agreed. Maybe I'm giving myself another attitude adjustment, but it's beginning to dawn on me that Dimensions isn't necessarily better or worse, it's simply more diverse. And with diversity comes more diverse opinions, so there are bound to be disagreements. Meanwhile I'll try not to lose sight that my own best policy is to continue to accentuate the positive and minimize the negative. 


chicken legs said:


> I lurked hardcore (library and art section) before I actually joined in 07 and even then I avoided the boards except for the BHM/FFA area. It wasn't until December 08' that I really started posting because my social life IRL (still not used to using all these abbreviations) slowed down (kids will do that to ya).


My situation is the reverse. I find myself posting less and less here because my social life is becoming more active. That's a great problem to have but it can still be a problem. My husband & I have no kids, but last year my college-age niece had a big fight with her mother (my brother's wife) partly due to the "freshman 15" and the "sophomore 50" she gained, so my niece practically wanted to move in with us. Not the most comfortable situation in the world, but I remember when my niece used to sit on her big fat Aunt Sue's lap, so what maternal instinct I have made itself felt. Then Art & I were drawn into some my niece's classmates' families and really hit it off so we began to move in their circles too. Then my niece made amends with her mother, whereupon my (formerly?) fat-phobic sister-in-law is now being too nice for comfort. Last week I was on furlough for the second and I hope last time in 2 months, but somehow my week got filled up anyway ("A shopping trip to Chicago? Okay I'll go."). Then etc. etc. etc. Anyway I still find Dimensions to be a valuable resource, even though it's become more, shall we say, rambunctious and even though I don't have much time these days to add my wisdom or "whiz-dumb" to the mix. I do know I've been in some completely new situations in the past many moons and some of the advice I've received has been major help. (Some advice also leads me to believe my computer needs a better sarcasm filter.)


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## Green Eyed Fairy

That is all.....


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## Dr. Feelgood

I got her for ya (and for me, too).


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## Donna

Tau said:


> *snip* Finally what the OP said in this thread about us being a minority :bow:. I've had a major, major crisis of faith in this community. I get that the cool thing is to claim not have ever believed in the community, to dismiss the feelings that places like this stir in me, to trivialise the connections I've made here, but I can't. Places like this mean something. I've never, ever had a conversation with a fat girl in my world who thinks and feels like so many of the amazing fat women here think and feel. It means so much to me that I can come to Dims and my other internet realities and talk to people who move me, who make me stronger, who make me laugh, who piss me off, who make me horny  In conclusion - we are, for the most, all very clever people. The forum shouldn't be a place where you try and prove it and prove it and prove it.
> 
> I hope things get better here - I'd certainly like to see the Dims of which Jay spoke.



It is generally not my nature to be defeatist, but unfortunately I don't think you will see the Dimensions that Jay mentions. Not anytime soon, anyway. Experience has taught me that once changes have taken place, it is only rarely that said change is undone. You can't go back in time. Like I said in my previous post, the community is a living, breathing, changing entity and as such it ages. Just like you or I cannot go back and be a particular age or experience certain life stages, Dims cannot go back and be this fat utopia Jay describes (as someone who has been around a while, I'm not completely convinced it ever was as idyllic as Jay recalls, But I am digressing from my point, so I will move on.) 

Just as change in this life is inevitable, change is also sometimes painful and is rarely ever easy; even positive change. Out of the pain and the turmoil there will arise a better Dimensions experience. Better for whom remains to be seen, however.


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## kayrae

Jay, I'll have a far better analysis later, but I wanted to respond to Donna. I think one of Dimensions' biggest problem is that it hasn't changed or evolved into the direction that it should go. I've said it plenty of times, Dimensions is no longer a magazine. New content is pretty much provided by the people who choose to participate in the forums. 

Conrad, if you're listening... as a publisher you know that change is imminent. You have to change in order to compete in the market. If you just look at the web design, Dimensions hasn't changed since Aug. 2008 when I joined. I'm guessing it hasn't changed for even far longer than that. If you look at the two biggest social networking sites like Facebook and Myspace... who won the market in the end? Facebook. And it's because it had the ability to change and re-invent itself based on user demand. And understandably, this website might have just grown old hat to you... but it definitely has the potential to be what it once was for other people while still catering to an entirely new crowd. This FA vs BBW biz is old old old hat. 

And why not be resourceful? There is a shit ton of people on Dimensions. I bet some lurker with some magical web design skill is willing to help... all for the love of the great foundation that's already been laid out. Carefully pick your best and brightest members, people you entrust to continue on this legacy. Create an application process if necessary. Massively re-design, re-invent, and re-haul this website. I am most certainly willing to help, but only if we do it in a careful and calculated manner.

And can we all please stop making BBWs feel that they/we don't belong here? Without the sense of community and support that BBWs offer, this website will tank. Because let's keep it real, if you cut the good fat out, then what do you have left?


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## Wagimawr

kayrae said:


> And can we all please stop making BBWs feel that they/we don't belong here? Without the sense of community and support that BBWs offer, this website will tank. Because let's keep it real, if you cut the good fat out, then what do you have left?


Nobody likes a circlejerk. [repped!]


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## Guy

kayrae said:


> And can we all please stop making BBWs feel that they/we don't belong here? Without the sense of community and support that BBWs offer, this website will tank. Because let's keep it real, if you cut the good fat out, then what do you have left?


You're saying Dimensions is anti BBW? Seriously?


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## BigBeautifulMe

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> That is all.....


ROFL at what's in yoiur search bar, Greenie.


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## kayrae

I'm not saying that it's anti-BBW. But if BBWs feel that it's not a place for them, then their feelings must definitely be regarded. To pretend that BBW members feel all hunky dory about the site... is to pretend that there isn't a problem here.


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## Green Eyed Fairy

BigBeautifulMe said:


> ROFL at what's in yoiur search bar, Greenie.




Now you know my secrets.......:blush: 

Had to give my kids their own log ins so they wouldn't see all the evil on my own


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## Webmaster

If the site design is now under discussion, we're talking apples and oranges. What things look like is one matter, how they are structured and who they are properly addressing or accommodating is another.

The site's look actually hasn't changed in many years, and that's mostly be design. I view the "static" part of the site more as "historic" Dimensions, and have left it alone on purpose. I am actually no foreigner to website design, but every time I suggested a new approach, the response usually was that in an ever-changing world, it was comforting to always be able to come back to a familiar face.

Website schools of design come and go. Dimensions could have had the AOL look of circa 1998, the CSS look of circa 2002, the MySpace look of circa 2006, or the Flash look of circa 2009. Can all be done, easily. And by all means, let's have a poll or whatever. The look is NOT by implied lack of care.

As far as a look for vBulletin goes, sure, there are 100,000 templates out there, and over time I tried a few, but was never that impressed. I also created an alternate entry point (see here), but few, if any, use it. But if that is an issue, hey, Flash and all, here we come.

I think by far the greater issue is making sure that Dimensions addresses everyone's needs as best as is possible. I say as best as it is possible because it is not possible to fill everyone's needs to perfection. It's always a compromise, but for a compromise, people need to work together, constructively.


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## Donna

kayrae said:


> *snip* I think one of Dimensions' biggest problem is that it hasn't changed or evolved into the direction that it should go. I've said it plenty of times, Dimensions is no longer a magazine. New content is pretty much provided by the people who choose to participate in the forums.*snipped again*



Whose to say what that direction should be, though? That's the crux of the continuing turmoil perhaps. I don't have an answer to my own question, either.


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## kayrae

Holy shit... I LOVE THAT WE CAN HAVE THIS DISCUSSION. I'm late for a meeting with my landlord. But this is amazing.


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## mszwebs

Webmaster said:


> If the site design is now under discussion, we're talking apples and oranges. What things look like is one matter, how they are structured and who they are properly addressing or accommodating is another.
> 
> The site's look actually hasn't changed in many years, and that's mostly be design. I view the "static" part of the site more as "historic" Dimensions, and have left it alone on purpose. I am actually no foreigner to website design, but every time I suggested a new approach, the response usually was that in an ever-changing world, it was comforting to always be able to come back to a familiar face.
> 
> Website schools of design come and go. Dimensions could have had the AOL look of circa 1998, the CSS look of circa 2002, the MySpace look of circa 2006, or the Flash look of circa 2009. Can all be done, easily. And by all means, let's have a poll or whatever. The look is NOT by implied lack of care.
> 
> *As far as a look for vBulletin goes, sure, there are 100,000 templates out there, and over time I tried a few, but was never that impressed. I also created an alternate entry point (see here), but few, if any, use it. But if that is an issue, hey, Flash and all, here we come.*
> 
> I think by far the greater issue is making sure that Dimensions addresses everyone's needs as best as is possible. I say as best as it is possible because it is not possible to fill everyone's needs to perfection. It's always a compromise, but for a compromise, people need to work together, constructively.




I actually like that page and I'm glad you posted it, because I found it a while back and when I lost it again, I asked a mod how to get there and I was told that i wasn't supposed to be using it...maybe there was confusion going on.

So thank you. I dig it.


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## Shosh

mszwebs said:


> I actually like that page and I'm glad you posted it, because I found it a while back and when I lost it again, I asked a mod how to get there and I was told that i wasn't supposed to be using it...maybe there was confusion going on.
> 
> So thank you. I dig it.



I like that page too!


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## Green Eyed Fairy

Webmaster said:


> As far as a look for vBulletin goes, sure, there are 100,000 templates out there, and over time I tried a few, but was never that impressed. I also created an alternate entry point (see here), but few, if any, use it. But if that is an issue, hey, Flash and all, here we come.



Just for the record, since you're not sure if anyone actually uses that entryway, I have my bookmark tab set to it. Have been using it for over a year- it's groovy indeed.

Got that link from the rep whines thread down on the BHM board. If not for that thread though, I would have never known of that gateway. How do you normally access it from the main page? 

It's cool to see "rep power"


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## musicman

kayrae said:


> Conrad, if you're listening... as a publisher you know that change is imminent. You have to change in order to compete in the market. If you just look at the web design, Dimensions hasn't changed since Aug. 2008 when I joined. I'm guessing it hasn't changed for even far longer than that. If you look at the two biggest social networking sites like Facebook and Myspace... who won the market in the end? Facebook. And it's because it had the ability to change and re-invent itself based on user demand.



I'm sorry, but comparing Dimensions to MySpace and Facebook is the biggest insult to Dimensions that I've read in a long time.

Who exactly is Dimensions competing against? And what does Conrad need to change in order to defeat these unidentified competitors? And why should he bother? Unless I'm mistaken, Dimensions isn't a multi-billion dollar money-making scheme like the other two sites you mention. It looks more like a small labor-of-love by Conrad that has grown considerably, yet still has truly interested users and moderators, and has no need to attract millions of superficial idiots like some other sites. 

Give Conrad a little credit. He's done an amazing job with this site. And give the users a little credit, too. I don't come here to see flashy graphics, and I don't think most other people do either. I don't care what the site looks like, as long as it's usable. I don't care that it's not up to the latest Web 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, or whatever fad-of-the-week we see on Facebook. If some people are kept away by a lack of flashy graphics, then I probably wouldn't want to read anything they would post anyway.


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## TraciJo67

Aswani said:


> Evoc is pretty open about her weight loss surgery three years ago. She still goes under that name on WLS blogs and is very happy with her new life. Although the success of WLS might not be something to be mentioned on this particular board.
> 
> But yes, Evoc is still around and kicking.
> 
> 
> 
> She even has a video of herself on youtube under her Evoc8ive name.


 
Aswani, does Evoc know that you've posted this? As she hasn't posted here in years, I wonder if she'd appreciate that you've posted these photos and links.


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## Fuzzy

When someone posts the old Dimensions.. I think of the software before the current one.. before the summer of 2005.. and I'm quite happy with this format. 

Most populations that inhabit a given forum hardly last a year, or two. I'd be curious to know how old the Dims collective really is.. that we've stayed together in various shapes and forms for nearly 10 years... or more?

Wowzers.


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## Sandie_Zitkus

You can't ever get the *old* Dimensions back. The biggest reason is that most of the people who posted here are gone. Different personalities - different boards. And on the old software there were only 2 boards, so all issues were discussed on those 2 boards. I think the amount of boards today makes the boards less interesting and it divides the community.


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## superodalisque

great thread Jay. and a very interesting starter. i had to think about it and i still haven't made up my mind fully about what exactly has changed. one thing that really did jump out at me though is the idea that dimensions was this totally idyllic positive land before i'm not sure it ever really was. it may have appeared to have been on the surface but i think that was mainly because a lot of issues bubbling up now had been essentially held down artificially and were operating under the radar anyway.

i think part of the thing that kept people quiet was fear--especially aimed at BBWs. there was always the threat that somehow the admirers would go away if you don't go along with keeping the happy fat girl fantasy going. here BBWs have always been encouraged to view the potential of someone being attracted to them with a sense of desperation. i see that threat brought out occasionally even now. as in" if you don't go along with the program FAs won't come here anymore" or " only an FA can be sexually attracted to you". what ends up happening is what you have here, a number of BBWs catfighting over the hearts and minds of FAs as though they are their last chance on earth and and a number of FAs who feel entitled to have their own way no matter the consequence. there has always been a group here whose aim is to make sure that dims stays what they think of as FA friendly. the problem is thats an old and stale and maybe disingenuous idea posed by people who'd like to keep the BBW population flush and quiet. i'm not sure how truly friendly it is to FAs to keep their heads full of unrealistic ideas of what a BBW really is. sexual fantasy is one thing but community is another and the two are not the same thing. to assume and expect that FAs are only out for the physical and nothing else isn't really right or fair to do to them. assuming that FAs are not socially conscious is also wrong. assuming that they want BBWs to just shut up and look fat is wrong. assuming that BBWs should sacrifice their true identity for a fake one thats not good for anyone is wrong. 


i think that whole outmoded concept based on false assumptions has demoralized everyone. its made us less than what we are capable of as a whole. overall its very insulting to the character of most FAs i know. it shows how little faith we have in them to be the best and it encourages the worst. i feel that mindset manipulates them via their fantasies to become dependent on something not real and it alienates them from the real. IMO its a bald attempt to control them as well and what they do with lies and misdirection. after all if they are off happy and well adjusted in real life somewhere, not feeling the need to fight pangs of alienation and loneliness they won't spend as much of their time and dollars online. i don't think its any accident that so many FAs have a hard time finding BBWs in the real world with the kind of success rate they would like. they have been misshapen. they have been sold a bill of goods about what life is really like. their fears and fantasies have been tweaked and pandered to. they are told that "the whole world thinks you are a freak, except me, your fantasy surrogate. i am the only one who understands you. just because you love fat girls you are a fetishist. just because you love women who aren't deathly afraid of food and enjoying it you are a fetishist. if you thrill to certain aspects of a fat body you are a fetishist. you are an outsider. you are all alone except for me. i will help you. i' will make everything ok. shhhhh don't tell anyone but me because i am the only one who understands." for some thats a comfortable spot to be in. i'm not sure anyone wants to give up an enabler--especially such a charming one. but the real world presses in as it is like to do.

i think the real tension here results from when people have their fantasies challenged in ways that make them uncomfortable. i think that in the past it was much easier to keep those challenges at bay just because dims _was_ in a faux honeymoon phase of sorts. people were, as still are to a large extent, afraid to say how they really feel about some things common here on dims and in the BBW community at large. and when they do they are told to leave. they are told that they are being negative. they are told if their experience isn't good its because there is something wrong with them.

IMO the unrest here isn't about anything except the irasciblity anyone would feel when their humanity is being ignored and downplayed. FAs are human beings BBWs are human beings. why are people trying to make us define ourselves as less than that? when we are trying to find happiness why do we have to narrow our search?


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## Sandie_Zitkus

kayrae said:


> I'm not saying that it's anti-BBW. But if BBWs feel that it's not a place for them, then their feelings must definitely be regarded. To pretend that BBW members feel all hunky dory about the site... is to pretend that there isn't a problem here.



I like Dimensions - it's a place I think of as home. And I think there are quite a few others here who feel the same way.


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## steve-aka

kayrae said:


> I'm not saying that it's anti-BBW. But if BBWs feel that it's not a place for them, then their feelings must definitely be regarded. To pretend that BBW members feel all hunky dory about the site... is to pretend that there isn't a problem here.



Y'know, I'm not sure what this supposed BBW beef with Dimensions is exactly but sometimes as an FA I feel reticent to say certain things so as not to raise the ire of a very vocal group of BBWs who frequent the boards. I routinely see FAs who attempt to engage in talk about their attractions and fantasies and whatnot get soundly lambasted for somehow being inappropriate or crude or objectifying women. It is rather disheartening. I mean if we can't talk about stuff like that here - within the appropriate forum and within a certain sense of decorum - then where can we talk about it?

The far and away major issue at Dimensions today is this whole BBW versus FA furuncle that's been slowly swelling and seething for a year or more. We desperately need to lance this festering boil and soon. 

We all obviously have our differences, however we all ultimately come here for, if not the same, then _very_ similar reasons. Can't we just get back to those reasons? Let's get past our differences and go back to original reason this website was created. Let's find it within our hearts to remember why we came here in the first place. We're all here to celebrate the attractiveness of adipose and our love of the people who are endowed with or are enticed by this beautiful attribute. Let's help each other see that we're not alone in these feelings and instead of dividing ourselves into factions, let's rejoice in our similarities.


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## fatgirlflyin

steve-aka said:


> Y'know, I'm not sure what this supposed BBW beef with Dimensions is exactly but sometimes as an FA I feel reticent to say certain things so as not to raise the ire of a very vocal group of BBWs who frequent the boards. I routinely see FAs who attempt to engage in talk about their attractions and fantasies and whatnot get soundly lambasted for somehow being inappropriate or crude or objectifying women. It is rather disheartening. I mean if we can't talk about stuff like that here - within the appropriate forum and within a certain sense of decorum - then where can we talk about it?




I think its interesting that you use this as an example. I know what you are saying and most of what I see said here between FA's is exactly the same kinds of things I have caught my son saying to his friends, or my s/o saying to his friends when they thought I couldn't hear. That's the key though, they were saying these things when they thought I couldn't hear. I know a lot of women here don't agree with the whole guys will just be guys statement but I do. I believe that sometimes guys just say things differently and sometimes it comes off as crude or objectifying when that really wasn't how they intended it. They were just being, well, guys. Where it gets fuzzy, at least here in Dimensions, is that those posts aren't private. They aren't out of earshot (eyeshot) and the women that the comments are made about do see them and often times are offended by them. So what's the middle ground? Do the guys not make the comments? Do the women just suck it up and let it go? I don't think either one is gonna happen.


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## Ruffie

In my opinion its about some people with some underlying resentments or hell yes just plain old anger trying to shape and mould the people who come here to post. If you don't fall into line in their minds,one side or the other or falling in the middle, in other words completely agreeing with them then you get to listen to the resulting snark, condescending or plain old venom. I guess we could all sink to that level, but I have better things to do; so I shake my head, mutter something at the screen, and live my real life. I return to catch up on things that are going on in people's lives that I care for, connect with them, learn some new things, and search for the bits of positivity that make their way here.


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## Marietta

steve-aka said:


> Y'know, I'm not sure what this supposed BBW beef with Dimensions is exactly but sometimes as an FA I feel reticent to say certain things so as not to raise the ire of a very vocal group of BBWs who frequent the boards. I routinely see FAs who attempt to engage in talk about their attractions and fantasies and whatnot get soundly lambasted for somehow being inappropriate or crude or objectifying women. It is rather disheartening. I mean if we can't talk about stuff like that here - within the appropriate forum and within a certain sense of decorum - then where can we talk about it?



As an FFA, I feel qualified to say it's entirely possible to talk about one's sexuality without objectifying women - and that a lot of men, FAs or not, don't know how. I'm not saying you do, but some FAs here seem to think that even if something would be considered unambiguously misogynistic or fat-hating if some obnoxious non-FA yelled it out of a car, it's just fine to go on about it as long as it turns you on.

You can get turned on by something that reflects bigotry without being a bigot. But things don't magically become unproblematic when someone gets increased blood flow to the genitals.

While it's fun and liberating to talk about your sexuality with other people, I really don't see how it's essential most of the time. If I knew some fantasy of mine would be upsetting to think about for a lot of people, I wouldn't be loud about it in a public forum without some reason a lot better than "because I can". There's an ... aggressiveness to some of the IT'S MY SEXUALITY SO STFU brigade that reminds me, honestly, of flashing people.

Finally, while I can't speak for anyone else, the most aggressive/rude/"lambasting"-prone posters I've noticed on here are mostly male FAs. I think there are definitely some... perceptual distortions that go on with gender and aggressiveness.


----------



## Gendo Ikari

Things are just evolving.


----------



## LoveBHMS

> Jay, I'll have a far better analysis later, but I wanted to respond to Donna. I think one of Dimensions' biggest problem is that it hasn't changed or evolved into the direction that it should go. I've said it plenty of times, Dimensions is no longer a magazine. New content is pretty much provided by the people who choose to participate in the forums.



Whose job is it to determine what direction it "should go"? You? It's incredibly arrogant to state that this site "should" go in a particular direction; you don't speak for everyone.



> Conrad, if you're listening... as a publisher you know that change is imminent. You have to change in order to compete in the market. If you just look at the web design, Dimensions hasn't changed since Aug. 2008 when I joined. I'm guessing it hasn't changed for even far longer than that. If you look at the two biggest social networking sites like Facebook and Myspace... who won the market in the end? Facebook. And it's because it had the ability to change and re-invent itself based on user demand. And understandably, this website might have just grown old hat to you... but it definitely has the potential to be what it once was for other people while still catering to an entirely new crowd. This FA vs BBW biz is old old old hat.



The problem is not the site design. Additionally this is not a commercial site so your comparison don't really make sense.



> And why not be resourceful? There is a shit ton of people on Dimensions. I bet some lurker with some magical web design skill is willing to help... all for the love of the great foundation that's already been laid out. Carefully pick your best and brightest members, people you entrust to continue on this legacy. Create an application process if necessary. Massively re-design, re-invent, and re-haul this website. I am most certainly willing to help, but only if we do it in a careful and calculated manner.



LOL. Telling Conrad to pick his best and brightest members and then gratiously offering _yourself?_ Arrogant much? And then to say you're only willing to help if it's done the way you like. Do you honestly think the drama and negativity that permeate this place now are going to be lessened by Conrad picking and choosing those he deems to be "best and brightest" and letting them affect this board? Doing that would breed a "shit ton" more resentment and anger.



> And can we all please stop making BBWs feel that they/we don't belong here? Without the sense of community and support that BBWs offer, this website will tank. Because let's keep it real, if you cut the good fat out, then what do you have left?



BBWs are not monolithic. Why do you assume everyone feels the way you and your friends do? This site is not just about BBWs, it's also about FA (of both genders) and fat men. You're assuming once again you speak for everyone. If you take a subject like weight loss, there are many fat people who don't want it here because they want a place free of that kind of talk. Personally i'd be in favor of it but i have the sense to recognize that it's not my call and that i may or may not be in the majority with that opinion.

Lastly, nobody is making BBWs feel they don't belong here. Your whole post reads like you're trying to hijack Conrad and the site overall because you think you represent some huge voting block of fat women who are gonna take their toys and go home if everything isn't done your way. The fact you feel a certain way does not mean all BBW or SSBBW feel that way.


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## joswitch

superodalisque said:


> if you don't go along with keeping the happy fat girl fantasy going.


 So in your opinion happy fat girls only exist in fantasy? Wow.


----------



## joswitch

steve-aka said:


> Y'know, I'm not sure what this supposed BBW beef with Dimensions is exactly but sometimes as an FA I feel reticent to say certain things so as not to raise the ire of a very vocal group of BBWs who frequent the boards. I routinely see FAs who attempt to engage in talk about their attractions and fantasies and whatnot get soundly lambasted for somehow being inappropriate or crude or objectifying women. It is rather disheartening. I mean if we can't talk about stuff like that here - within the appropriate forum and within a certain sense of decorum - then where can we talk about it?
> 
> The far and away major issue at Dimensions today is this whole BBW versus FA furuncle that's been slowly swelling and seething for a year or more. We desperately need to lance this festering boil and soon.
> 
> We all obviously have our differences, however we all ultimately come here for, if not the same, then _very_ similar reasons. Can't we just get back to those reasons? Let's get past our differences and go back to original reason this website was created. Let's find it within our hearts to remember why we came here in the first place. We're all here to celebrate the attractiveness of adipose and our love of the people who are endowed with or are enticed by this beautiful attribute. Let's help each other see that we're not alone in these feelings and instead of dividing ourselves into factions, let's rejoice in our similarities.



That's the point you're not getting. Many BBWs come here for female friendship and support, often re. coping with social/physical/emotional aspects of being fat. They are often here, partly, to exchange weight loss advice in a non-judgemental environment, with others who understand first-hand where they are coming from. Some get thin, and stay, to talk to their friends. Many ?most? BBW are not FA at all. 

FAs are irrelevant to this. FAs are seen by these folks as, at best, amusing/weird/irritant. And at worst as sick/evil/monstrous for desiring what they consider to be a burden - or indeed, for having a significant physical component to their desires AT ALL. Which is to say - the mainstream is right here. And I don't think it's going away.

It is, I think a hard thing to acknowlege, but I think it has to be faced - not only are non-bisuzual (F)FAs somewhat screwed cos they only really desire a small % of people i.e. big folks, but we're doubly screwed cos most big folks do not want to be big and don't desire (F)FAs. I've struck lucky before, mind you.... shrugs...

As far as increasing the peace here is concerned. I'm going to pursue the (fat) positive and do my best to keep my snark levels down, while ignoring most (FA) monstering, unless I think the discussion itself is important.


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## LoveBHMS

> FAs are irrelevant to this. FAs are seen by these folks as, at best, amusing/weird/irritant. And at worst as sick/evil/monstrous for desiring what they consider to be a burden - or indeed, for having a significant physical component to their desires AT ALL. Which is to say - the mainstream is right here. And I don't think it's going away.



Bull. Plenty of fat men and women like FAs. If some don't, that is their right just as it is their right to dislike being fat. Ultimately, choices about ones body AND sexuality are both private matters. Many FAs understand this and don't want a fat person to be unhappy or uncomfortable. I'd place anyone's mental and physical well being ahead of my turn-ons 100% of the time. That being said, my and other FA's turn ons are perfectly normal.

I don't feel at all screwed. This is just how i am and it's not going to change no matter if there are challenges to being this way.


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## chicken legs

I agree with what Joswitch said because he summed up what the "admirers" think of the "fa". Even Steve-aka saw that first hand in the "1000 ways to die" thread when the BBW that played in the re-enactment went off on him. As a FA, it really irks me that the "admirers" thinks its fine to tool the "fa". They want you to love them for themselves but then get mad/irritated/weirded out because we do. Or they come in, get a ego boast, and step on you on the way out. Or they realize that, yes, most of it is just fantasy and role-play...and in IRL things are a bit more complicated (this goes for FA and those we admire) This is why, I stayed off the boards, and stayed in the fantasyland area of Dims for so long.


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## joswitch

LoveBHMS said:


> Bull. Plenty of fat men and women like FAs. If some don't, that is their right just as it is their right to dislike being fat. Ultimately, choices about ones body AND sexuality are both private matters. Many FAs understand this and don't want a fat person to be unhappy or uncomfortable. I'd place anyone's mental and physical well being ahead of my turn-ons 100% of the time. That being said, my and other FA's turn ons are perfectly normal.



At no point have I said, nor implied, that the rights of anyone over their likes/dislikes, body/changes should be questioned. Nor that anyone should stay unhappy to please anyone else. You and I have discussed these points before, so you have no excuse in trying to put words in my mouth. Please stop it. Thanks.

I didn't say FAs were abnormal I said that's how we are perceived by some/many. 

I made a number of observations above, none of which contained nor implied any value judgements. Just telling it like it is, as I see it.


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## fatgirlflyin

joswitch said:


> I didn't say FAs were abnormal I said that's how we are perceived by some/many.



I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it." You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?


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## superodalisque

joswitch said:


> So in your opinion happy fat girls only exist in fantasy? Wow.



no. because i actually am a happy fat girl. i know a lot of other ones too. but pretending that there aren't issues attached to being fat at times for some people wouldn't be true. not allowing to them to talk through those issues truthfully so that they can be happy doesn't help them to be a happy fat girl. i like a positive bent myself so i get ya. but even i had to realize that it wasn't fair to ask other people to pretend they weren't having difficulties or even second guessing whether they should be fat or not. expecting that was expecting people to be unreal just to satisfy my idea of what a fat girl should be. and, not telling the entire truth wasn't going to help anyone get to be the happy fat girl they'd actually like to be. what would you prefer; the pretense of a happy fat girl or a real happy fat girl? well, sometimes getting there might not be all that pretty.

if they can be patient what FAs in particular will end up with will make them happy FAs as well. so this is not one sided. they'll end up with someone who truly loves their body and isn't a poser who is going to have weight loss surgery down the line not because she might perhaps be forced to because of health issues but only because she doesn't like how she looks as she is . FAs often talk about how heartbreaking it is for them to be with a significant other who doesn't share their appreciation for her body. i would think it would benefit them to create an environment where fat women can truly appreciate their body instead of just another place to feel rejected disrespected and as though its not worth the bother. its up to you to decide. is a faux happy fat girl who distracts you from the realities of being an FA good enough for you? would you rahter perpetuate pretense for the short term or actually end up finding that real happy fat girl you fantasize about? well, it takes some effort to get there.


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## joswitch

fatgirlflyin said:


> I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it." You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?



I didn't form that opinion based on closet issues, no. And it's understandable if you have some ill feeling towards closet FAs. 

No, I formed this opinion (as a longtime out FA myself-16+ years), as far as Dims is concerned, based on reading loads of posts on here. Particular standout threads have included: 

One where BBWs were asked if they'd date an FA, and several said never... 
(And YES, of course that is their right!)

Aaaaand any one of many, many threads where non-bisizual FAs are repeatedly castigated for not being able to find a partner of any size desirable (e.g. a newly, suddenly (much) thin(ner) partner), as though such an FA sexuality was: 
a) a moral failing 
b) something subject to voluntary adjustment and
c) an indicator of being unable to truly love! 
(It's none of the above.)

I notice that no-one has picked up on/tried to refute my point that many big people are here for like minded/bodied friends, and/or weight loss advice and just find FAs / the FA mindset to be irrelevant to their interests... (and again, that IS their right, yes!)...

Please try to remember that all of this was posted in response to Steve-aka, and my purpose was to maybe lower FA expectations that DIMS posters are in general united as a fat positive, fat admiring bunch of people... Cos they aren't. And cos many (ex)fat people here (didn't)don't want to be fat, nor admired as such, (and yes! that IS their right too!) it's not going to become that in future. I say that without any resentment towards anyone. 

I think the best we can hope for is a respectful detente, where people don't get on each others backs, given posting on the appropriate boards... 
E.g. If you hated being fat, have had wls to lose and only come here for your friends, why go into the weight board to get all offended? Likewise if you're all horny for the fapping (or shlicking), stay out of posting in support threads on the Health board where big people are discussing real and distressing mobility issues.... 

I know that's been said before, ad nauseum, but....I think if people could manage that detente, DIMs would be pretty cool again...


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## joswitch

superodalisque said:


> no. because i actually am a happy fat girl. i know a lot of other ones too. but pretending that there aren't issues attached to being fat at times for some people wouldn't be true. not allowing to them to talk through those issues truthfully so that they can be happy doesn't help them to be a happy fat girl. i like a positive bent myself so i get ya. but even i had to realize that it wasn't fair to ask other people to pretend they weren't having difficulties or even second guessing whether they should be fat or not. expecting that was expecting people to be unreal just to satisfy my idea of what a fat girl should be. and, not telling the entire truth wasn't going to help anyone get to be the happy fat girl they'd actually like to be. what would you prefer; the pretense of a happy fat girl or a real happy fat girl? well, sometimes getting there might not be all that pretty.
> 
> if they can be patient what FAs in particular will end up with will make them happy FAs as well. so this is not one sided. they'll end up with someone who truly loves their body and isn't a poser who is going to have weight loss surgery down the line not because she might perhaps be forced to because of health issues but only because she doesn't like how she looks as she is . FAs often talk about how heartbreaking it is for them to be with a significant other who doesn't share their appreciation for her body. i would think it would benefit them to create an environment where fat women can truly appreciate their body instead of just another place to feel rejected disrespected and as though its not worth the bother. its up to you to decide. is a faux happy fat girl who distracts you from the realities of being an FA good enough for you? would you rahter perpetuate pretense for the short term or actually end up finding that real happy fat girl you fantasize about? well, it takes some effort to get there.



I agree that being able to voice your mind without inhibition or fear of attack is very useful for working your shit out and making peace with yourself, and in dealing with all kinds of issues. And I agree that big folks need that and DIMS could (does) provide (some) of that. 

You don't need to sell that POV to me as potentially good for FAs - I don't think there's any guarantees that process will necessarily lead to more BBWs happy-as-they are, (nor FAs suddenly made bi-sizual), but that's besides the point - I think that peace-with(in)-self is a worthwhile end in and of itself, for everyone... And is more likely to lead to people being honest about what they seek in life, and so more likely to get it = happiness = good thing.


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## Big Beautiful Dreamer

Hey, Conrad does the work (including the large save after Dims went down for four or five days a couple of years ago), and those of us who partake can post, stay away, and rep accordingly. I personally like the way he's set aside a separate forum for WLS talk, and I especially like the effort he's taken to subdivide the fiction. But then, to be fair, I really don't post much to the chats, or visit them much, so I tend to miss out on some of the drama.


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## Big Beautiful Dreamer

<LOL at "bi-sizual.">


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## superodalisque

fatgirlflyin said:


> I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it." You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?



indeed! more than anything i find it disheartening how many FAs on the forums write about how ashamed and embarrassed they are about loving fat women. even some of the very thoughtful and intelligent ones who really do try to understand seem to agree with the assumption that there is something wrong with us and their attraction to us is some kind of weird burden they have to carry through life. underneath it i feel there is this odd yearning of "if only i was attracted to someone the media thought was normal." honestly, i never had any idea that a man who was attracted to me was supposed to have freak on until i came to dims because thats how many of the guys presented it. when i sat in a guy's lap it was out of affection and sensuality period. if he enjoyed watching me eat it was because he appreciated my hedonistic way of having what i wanted and not being afraid of my own body like other women. they didn't make me feel "weighed or measured like a pumkin in a 4H contest" as one of my FA friends is fond of saying. those men only made me feel like a woman who was sexy and appreciated by them. here i have been encouraged to separate who i am in my entirety from my body and my actions as a woman. the guys here tend to feel its common for men to be in the closet no matter the fact that they even have a hard time finding single women who are the fattest of them all-- ssbbws. there is nothing less in the closet than making someone your wife or in these days of divorce staying with her even if she becomes fat during a marriage.

sometimes FAs appear to be agreeing with the worst of what what society has to say about us. lets be honest,unfortunately a lot of the things they like reinforce a stereotype that BBWs abhor --especially IRL. and when BBWs say so they are told that _they_are making FAs feel bad so they shouldn't reveal that. what comes to mind is the big fracas over how some of the BBWs felt about a lot of the art on this site. even though for some it is like the fat version of a step and fetch it show we weren't supposed to say so. i understand that people find it sexually titilating but they should also know that some of us find it insulting just as we know that they like it. why should one group be silent and not another? why is it ok for FAs to be honest and not BBWs? and why? what purpose does it serve other than to project one group as object and another group as the controller of the object? people are saying that certian things that FAs say here hurt and embarrass them just as others hurt or embarrass FAs. does that mean they should never be said anywhere on the forums or never discussed? does that mean that discussion should always be heavily policed and monitored even in a forum set aside for it while in the brother forum to those issues people seem to be given free reign to discuss things no matter how extreme they seem. IMO something is wrong with that picture.

if you are a woman trying to love yourself why would you think its great that a guy actually shares or agrees with the worst opinions that the rest of society might have about you, especially when you _are_ the happy fat girl trying to change things? the only BBWs a guy who believe the worst deep down is going to attract are the ones who agree on some level with the premise that fat women are generally undesireable as well. he is going to attract women who really don't want to be fat and hate thier bodies. he is going to attract women who don't even veiw themselves as women capable of inspiring love both romantic and sensual on all levels. all he will attract are women who project and think of themselves as a fetish for someone else out of necessity instead of women who might only have a fetish. he will attract women who have given up on believing that they are really even women.


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## joswitch

For the record, I don't regard being FA as freakish/wrong, nor do I think of BBWs as such... Some BBWs do think that, tho... Not all by any means, and I have had LTRs with BBWs who were basically happy being big, and were happy to be loved for all of themselves - as a whole - bigness very much included... And that was great! 

I don't care if the women I desire are "media desirable"... But some of those women do care - very much!

I'd LOVE to live in a world where it was widely acknowledged that people naturally come in diferent shapes and sizes, and that's ok! Indeed, where that diversity of beauty was celebrated. Mainly, cos I think lack of that is a significant part of what makes many people very unhappy. 

When I started posting on DIMS again after a few years break, I had hoped to find allies against what I call the "misery industry" (media/pharma/weightloss) that exploits big folks for $ and contributes enormously to societal fat bigotry... Instead I found that (people with) mainstream attitudes have pervaded DIMS to such a degree that they were the loudest, most persistant voices here... That's died back a bit, which is encouraging... But nonetheless I'm under no illusions anymore that Dims might be a stronghold of resistance to the misery industry...


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

Big Beautiful Dreamer said:


> Hey, Conrad does the work (including the large save after Dims went down for four or five days a couple of years ago), and those of us who partake can post, stay away, and rep accordingly. I personally like the way he's set aside a separate forum for WLS talk, and I especially like the effort he's taken to subdivide the fiction. But then, to be fair, I really don't post much to the chats, or visit them much, so I tend to miss out on some of the drama.



To be honest the WLS is useless, you can't talk about anything without breaking invisible rules that the folks who be, refuse to post anywhere on the board for all to see.


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## superodalisque

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> To be honest the WLS is useless, you can't talk about anything without breaking invisible rules that the folks who be, refuse to post anywhere on the board for all to see.



exactly. but people can express anything they like including feeding you until you literally explode on the fantasy board. i'm not knocking that but i really can't understand why exploding people is so much more okay than a woman dicussing serious health options for her survival especially since i haven't read of anyone there having surgery unless they felt that it was some kind of last resort? i just don't get it. from what i gather there have been a lot of people reading in there for whom it isn't and shouldn't be an issue other than to discourage it at any cost and complaining about anything they can find to complain about. i think its this kind if pandering to an element who don't seem to care if women live or die as long as they stay fat and appealing to them makes dims look skewed and even a little crazy.

i think things like that is what makes a lot of BBWs get their back up to such an extreme that they even lose control of their rhetoric and objectivity elsewhere on the boards sometimes. most of the time they have some really good points but they let the nasty attack dog approach kill the actual idea that they want to put forward. but back to your point. IMO the way the WLS forum was/is handled made whole lot of women here feel and understand that their wellbeing was second banana to FA libido no matter what. it turned a whole lot of women off knowing that even their survival was as unimportant beside that. once you seriously turn a woman off its hard to turn her back on again except to fight. i think until that time women were more likely to kid and play around and not feel that a lot of FAs had the worst of intentions toward them. but things like that make women feel that they have to just hunker down with their girls and protect themselves while they try to keep the place where they have made a lot of friends and do have a lot of support. a lot of women who used to hang around in the forums in general stay away from any area where there might be a sexual discussion now partly because of the attitude about the WLS forum and similar issues and partly because they are sick of always having to see posts by "the angry ones". folks have enough stress in their lives and they really don't feel like reinacting in on the forums 100% of the time.


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

dammmmmit. out of rep sucks. grrrrr.


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## Angel

musicman said:


> I'm sorry, but comparing Dimensions to MySpace and Facebook is the biggest insult to Dimensions that I've read in a long time.
> 
> Who exactly is Dimensions competing against? And what does Conrad need to change in order to defeat these unidentified competitors? And why should he bother? Unless I'm mistaken, Dimensions isn't a multi-billion dollar money-making scheme like the other two sites you mention. It looks more like a small labor-of-love by Conrad that has grown considerably, yet still has truly interested users and moderators, and has no need to attract millions of superficial idiots like some other sites.
> 
> *Give Conrad a little credit. He's done an amazing job with this site. And give the users a little credit, too. *I don't come here to see flashy graphics, and I don't think most other people do either. I don't care what the site looks like, as long as it's usable. I don't care that it's not up to the latest Web 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, or whatever fad-of-the-week we see on Facebook. If some people are kept away by a lack of flashy graphics, then I probably wouldn't want to read anything they would post anyway.



^^^ THIS!!! ^^^

The probem, or issue, is NOT the way the site is (or was) designed.



Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I like Dimensions - it's a place I think of as home. And I think there are quite a few others here who feel the same way.



There are more than a few. Even those who have been here a long time and who do have *legitimate* concerns probably still think of this as "home".



LoveBHMS said:


> *Whose job is it to determine what direction it "should go"? You? It's incredibly arrogant to state that this site "should" go in a particular direction; you don't speak for everyone.*
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not the site design. Additionally this is not a commercial site so your comparison don't really make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Telling Conrad to pick his best and brightest members and then gratiously offering _yourself?_ Arrogant much? And then to say you're only willing to help if it's done the way you like. Do you honestly think the drama and negativity that permeate this place now are going to be lessened by Conrad picking and choosing those he deems to be "best and brightest" and letting them affect this board? Doing that would breed a "shit ton" more resentment and anger.
> 
> 
> 
> BBWs are not monolithic. Why do you assume everyone feels the way you and your friends do? This site is not just about BBWs, it's also about FA (of both genders) and fat men. You're assuming once again you speak for everyone. If you take a subject like weight loss, there are many fat people who don't want it here because they want a place free of that kind of talk. Personally i'd be in favor of it but i have the sense to recognize that it's not my call and that i may or may not be in the majority with that opinion.
> 
> Lastly, nobody is making BBWs feel they don't belong here. Your whole post reads like you're trying to hijack Conrad and the site overall because you think you represent some huge voting block of fat women who are gonna take their toys and go home if everything isn't done your way. The fact you feel a certain way does not mean all BBW or SSBBW feel that way.



"incredibly arrogant" is a nice way of putting it.

It's more like shitting all over someone, their site, and on those of us who have been here for years and who appreciate what Dimensions has stood for for years; who understand what Dimensions is about (even with its imperfections); and who are intelligent enough to understand that *ONE* person has made this site available for years!

It's extremely rude (and that is putting it nicely) for someone who has been here only a year and a half to try to attempt to tell someone who has basically invested their entire adult life to _a cause_ how to run _*HIS*_ site - the site that _*HE*_ makes available to _us_.

I started reading the BBW print magazine back in 1982 or early 1993. In my opinion it was more of a fashion magazine featuring small BBW (mainly size 16,18,20 models; sometimes size 22 and 24 models). There was *one* page at the very back of the magazine that was devoted to those who were a size 26-52. One in a while I read Radiance magazine. Same except no page devoted to the larger sizes. Then I discovered Dimensions print magazines. Finally _there_ was a magazine that featured truly fat women. The magazine may have catered to men, but it featured fat women like me, my size then. There was plenty of reading and fashion and information for women to take in also. There were the personal ads, and for someone like me who had never known a man who specifically was attracted to fat women, that was refreshing to know that men like that truly existed in real life. 


Now, Dimensions is an online site. It may still cater mainly to men and to fat admirers, but there is plenty here for women and BBW/SSBBW and for BHM/SSBHM. Just as with the print Dimensions magazine, there is more here for BBW/SSBBW at Dimensions online that at any other site elsewhere. Conrad has graciously tried to meet our needs by giving us the various forums that have been requested. Yes, Dimensions has evolved and is more than the magazine. Dimensions reaches far more people now. The message is still there. It's a place where fat can be celebrated. It's a place where we don't have to feel so different or feel negated as a fat person. It's a place where it's ok to be attracted to fat people. It's a place where fat people and admirers from all over the world can meet and interact. It's a place where women can interact. It's a place where men can interact. All of that is made possible because of *one* man. 

Is it so wrong that one man wanted to make something (a newsletter, then a magazine, then an online site) for other men like himself; for other men who were (are) attracted to fat women? Think about it. What if you were a young man who was attracted to fat women, and those fat women didn't even exist where you lived. What if you thought you were the only one who felt that way? What if you never had anyone to share your feelings with? I guess I see things from my perspective as when I was young and growing up. I was the fat girl. The only supersized fat girl. I never saw or met anyone remotely close to my size until I was in my mid 20s. I didn't know that fat admirers existed, but I yearned for someone who could find my fat body attractive, for someone who would desire my fat body, for someone who wanted to touch my fat body, for someone who could love "all of me". I never met a fat admirer until I was 38 years old. He was no where near me. He was over 500 miles away. I never had anyone tell me I was beautiful until I was 38 years old. Sometimes I think that some here have absolutely no idea that there are some of us who truly do live where there are no fat admirers. I never would have met that fat admirer or the others I have met if it wouldn't have been for Dimensions. Those men were here at Dimensions because Dimensions was made for them. I guess I look at it as if Dimensions magazine had never existed, or if Dimensions online didn't exist, those men wouldn't have been here, and I never would have had the chance at meeting them or any other fat admirers. I never would have met anyone who not only found my entire fat supersized body attractive but also who desired me, nor would I have met anyone who thought I was beautiful both inside and out.

There are other sites for BBW. There's a site or two for SSBBW. There are sites for fat women and their emotional and intellectual needs. There are only a couple sites that celebrate those that are the fatter among us, where the physical attraction to SSBBW and SSBHM is acceptable, where it is okay to voice that attraction. I don't think that many get that. How many other sites have you seen where a man can openly state what he finds sexually attractive or alluring about fat woman, particularly supersized women? How many other sites have you seen where fat admirers actually converse with one another beyond high fiving each other for agreeing that a particular fat women has a "nice rack", a "nice ass", or a sexy belly? The one thing that I have come to appreciate as a woman here is that if you take the time to read what men do post here, you can get a clearer vision of what the man is about, and that sure does help in weeding out what qualities I don't find particularly attractive in a man. 

Dimensions has evolved, and that is highly due to the participation of the women here. And yes, I think we would be doing the guys here a disservice if we didn't tell them when they are being an ass or if we didn't take the time to explain why their behavior isn't going to help them find the woman of their dreams. Often times guys are, well, carnal in nature. They don't always think how their words will come across to the female persuasion. The basic thing is that we all want to be _heard_ and _understood_. Guys come here with their raging hormones and many of them have never had any experience with a fat woman, much less any woman. They have never been exposed to so much of what they find desirable, and they don't always think with the females' emotions in mind. Most of us women like to think we're prim and proper and refined.  I think it's okay to take someone to task. Maybe we just need to be a little more gentle in how we go about it. Males get their feeling hurt, too, when they are chastised. They just don't react in the same way a female would. Males usually become defensive when shown their faults. Maybe it's nature and part of them wanting to be, or them thinking they're the "stronger" sex. 

I get it that some women (and men) are unhappy because they feel like they aren't being heard. I get it that some women (and men) are unhappy because they feel like men are more important here. I don't think that was specifically stated, but that is how some things that were stated were taken. I get it that some women (and a few men) are unhappy because some here don't know the difference between fantasy and reality and have posted some fantasy related things that are offensive to those of us who live the reality of being a fat person. I get it that some are unhappy with some of the things that have been posted by certain individuals. Sometimes people really don't understand how they have unintentionally offended others. 

Division isn't the answer and it doesn't profit anyone in the long run. Keeping the lines of communication open and respectfully discussing misunderstandings without ripping someone's heart out or attempting to destroy their confidence, or without attempting to assassinate their character, just might bring about more positive results. Communication and mutual respect are keys to any win-win resolution.


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## fatgirlflyin

joswitch said:


> I didn't form that opinion based on closet issues, no. And it's understandable if you have some ill feeling towards closet FAs.



I just think they are pathetic, I guess you can count that as ill feelings. I also believe that they are the majority around here. Sure there are some guys who are vocal and unapologetic about liking fat women around here but most aren't. 

So again I will ask, if the majority of men come in here insisting they like fat women but are ashamed to tell their friends or family, how exactly are the women here supposed to take them seriously?


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## KHayes666

Too many posts to multi quote.


Jay - You're right, Dimensions has changed over the years. I actually say for the BETTER rather than for the worse.

One poster said that so many boards divides people and creatures sub-cultures, that's because too many people couldn't get along and wouldn't abide by the rules so the rules had to be changed and boards had to be made to keep peace. I've said it so many times I'm blue in the face, the problem was too many people were coming into certain places with a "well I never, this stuff is offensive and I won't stand for it, anyone who likes this is a FREAK!" mentality rather than "This isn't my cup of tea, but I'm not gonna judge" one. Since some people couldn't respect others wishes, preferences and just couldn't keep their mouths shut, the boards had to be moderated a little stricter.

Kayrae - I don't know what's funnier, the part where you tried to tell Conrad how Dimensions should be run or the part where you said BBW's aren't welcome. That's like me back in 2000 after a year on the bass calling up Gene Simmons or Paul McCartney and saying "no no no, THIS is how you do it". BBW's are very welcome to this site and boards, always have been. Where is the hate you speak of? While I can admire your enthusiasm for what you bring to Dimensions and what you may be able to do for positivity, but you came off sounding arrogant.

Another poster (can't remember, too many pages) said that the site has changed because the people have changed. That's basically the long and the short of it....either by WLS, death, children or other distractions that removed a good portion of members from 5-10 years ago. Those who were partial to these people can only move on, I myself lost a good couple friends here and I miss them alot so I know how it feels.

I'm not going to be abrasive and say "If you don't fuckin like it then get the fuck out", however my own words be "If you don't like the way things are going, try to make them better for yourself. Open up to new ideas and experiment a little." May make the site more enjoyable for you.

Lastly, I said earlier Dimensions has changed for the better. All the new rules and boards are designed to keep peace in and negativity out because people can't get along. To answer a big question, NO, we can't all get along. Its human nature to have a large group of people with the same common theme but to have different opinions. Same way 45 irish people can cram into Rock Bottom on St Patrick's Day and all have a good time, but the next day 2 of them could be Yankee fans that 2 others don't appreciate. 3 could be conservative republicans that 3 other democrats may not agree with...and on and on. While the common theme keeps us all together (FA/FFA/BBW/GLT/etc), we all have different lives and opinions. The boards may be watered down compared to the past, but it may just keep us peaceful long enough to evolve.


----------



## joswitch

superodalisque said:


> exactly. but people can express anything they like including feeding you until you literally explode on the fantasy board. i'm not knocking that but i really can't understand why exploding people is so much more okay than a woman dicussing serious health options for her survival especially since i haven't read of anyone there having surgery unless they felt that it was some kind of last resort? i just don't get it. from what i gather there have been a lot of people reading in there for whom it isn't and shouldn't be an issue other than to discourage it at any cost and complaining about anything they can find to complain about. i think its this kind if pandering to an element who don't seem to care if women live or die as long as they stay fat and appealing to them makes dims look skewed and even a little crazy.
> 
> i think things like that is what makes a lot of BBWs get their back up to such an extreme that they even lose control of their rhetoric and objectivity elsewhere on the boards sometimes. most of the time they have some really good points but they let the nasty attack dog approach kill the actual idea that they want to put forward. but back to your point. IMO the way the WLS forum was/is handled made whole lot of women here feel and understand that their wellbeing was second banana to FA libido no matter what. it turned a whole lot of women off knowing that even their survival was as unimportant beside that. once you seriously turn a woman off its hard to turn her back on again except to fight. i think until that time women were more likely to kid and play around and not feel that a lot of FAs had the worst of intentions toward them. but things like that make women feel that they have to just hunker down with their girls and protect themselves while they try to keep the place where they have made a lot of friends and do have a lot of support. a lot of women who used to hang around in the forums in general stay away from any area where there might be a sexual discussion now partly because of the attitude about the WLS forum and similar issues and partly because they are sick of always having to see posts by "the angry ones". folks have enough stress in their lives and they really don't feel like reinacting in on the forums 100% of the time.



Strongly disagreeing with your characterisation of WLS as this always life-saving/improving procedure. There are a LOT of medical issues against WLS, including a high fatality rate. To the extent that it's because I DO care whether people live or die that I (in general) speak against it. And I would even if I wasn't FA. I don't want to get into it further here, cos it's not the place for it. Also I'm aware that you're mainly holding the WLS board up as one example of how BBWs may feel stifled here, and that's a fair point to make.. 

That you consider WLS surgery such an unqualified positive is one example of how far from fat positivity and how mainstream Dims is now....

Oh and your assumptions about who might be reporting stuff on the WLS board and why are a pretty big leap! FTR - I, for one, have not to date reported anyone (other than trolls) on Dims...


----------



## joswitch

fatgirlflyin said:


> I just think they are pathetic, I guess you can count that as ill feelings. I also believe that they are the majority around here. Sure there are some guys who are vocal and unapologetic about liking fat women around here but most aren't.
> 
> So again I will ask, if the majority of men come in here insisting they like fat women but are ashamed to tell their friends or family, how exactly are the women here supposed to take them seriously?



No reason at all you should.

And by the way - as I'm not a closet case we have hit on one small way in which I do not suck! Tiny yay! for me!


----------



## superodalisque

joswitch said:


> Strongly disagreeing with your characterisation of WLS as this always life-saving/improving procedure. There are a LOT of medical issues against WLS, including a high fatality rate. To the extent that it's because I DO care whether people live or die that I (in general) speak against it. And I would even if I wasn't FA. I don't want to get into it further here, cos it's not the place for it. Also I'm aware that you're mainly holding the WLS board up as one example of how BBWs may feel stifled here, and that's a fair point to make..
> 
> That you consider WLS surgery such an unqualified positive is one example of how far from fat positivity and how mainstream Dims is now....
> 
> Oh and your assumptions about who might be reporting stuff on the WLS board and why are a pretty big leap! FTR - I, for one, have not to date reported anyone (other than trolls) on Dims...




this is not an attack on you. and i agree that WLS is not a panacea. i personally think its a bad idea. but when people have some serious health issues they have to be able to put everything on the table. knowing as little as we do about it makes it even more important that people discuss it together openly. it was here that i learned that a lot of people had had weight loss surgery that failed in various forms. it was here that i began to believe that maybe it has something to do with so many women of size having autoimmune diseases. you don't come to an opinion like that without a real discussion among people who've had, have are are going to have it. the media has said hardly anything about the side effects or even the fact that it can fail 100%. so shutting off that discussion really made no sense to me at all.


i never thought you were reporting anyone on the WLS board. i really don't think you are the type. but there are people who are. i really wish guys like you could really peek in on some of the convos, PMs etc... we get sometimes. you would be amazed at the things some people think its okay to say and do to us. but in a way i'm glad you can't imagine it because that would make you one of them. i think one of the problem is that FAs who are really trying to get it have no idea how bad it gets.


----------



## joswitch

superodalisque said:


> this is not an attack on you. and i agree that WLS is not a panacea. i personally think its a bad idea. but when people have some serious health issues they have to be able to put everything on the table. knowing as little as we do about it makes it even more important that people discuss it together openly. it was here that i learned that a lot of people had had weight loss surgery that failed in various forms. it was here that i began to believe that maybe it has something to do with so many women of size having autoimmune diseases. you don't come to an opinion like that without a real discussion among people who've had, have are are going to have it. the media has said hardly anything about the side effects or even the fact that it can fail 100%. so shutting off that discussion really made no sense to me at all.
> 
> 
> i never thought you were reporting anyone on the WLS board. i really don't think you are the type. but there are people who are. i really wish guys like you could really peek in on some of the convos, PMs etc... we get sometimes. you would be amazed at the things some people think its okay to say and do to us. but in a way i'm glad you can't imagine it because that would make you one of them. i think one of the problem is that FAs who are really trying to get it have no idea how bad it gets.



I agree completely - there's a clear need for open discussion re. wls and other weight change methods (on appropriate board and moderated against trolls and misery industry schills)...

I'm quite often horrified by other blokes acting up... I have been known to have words with 'em... I consider myself a bit rough, but then, by comparison... Hells bells there's some arseholes about...


----------



## fatgirlflyin

joswitch said:


> No reason at all you should.
> 
> And by the way - as I'm not a closet case we have hit on one small way in which I do not suck! Tiny yay! for me!



No I shouldn't, nor should any other woman. The number of "FAs" around here that live in the closet could be the reason that it seems like so many women around here don't take fa's seriously though. After a while it gets really tiring trying to convince someone they aren't freaks for liking fat women. 

And yes, tiny yay for you.  Though I never said you sucked.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

LoveBHMS said:


> Lastly, nobody is making BBWs feel they don't belong here.



Ironic to see you lambast someone for generalizations then make this mighty big assumption....and yeah, stating something as fact doesn't make it so. 
How do you know how all the BBWs feel and why they feel that way? 
Go back to speaking only for that which you already stated you care about...and leave the rest of us out of your "statements of fact". You cannot possibly ever speak for all the BBW on this board so don't try. 



joswitch said:


> That's the point you're not getting. Many BBWs come here for female friendship and support, often re. coping with social/physical/emotional aspects of being fat. *They are often here, partly, to exchange weight loss advice in a non-judgemental environment, with others who understand first-hand where they are coming from.* Some get thin, and stay, to talk to their friends. Many ?most? BBW are not FA at all.
> 
> FAs are irrelevant to this. FAs are seen by these folks as, at best, amusing/weird/irritant. And at worst as sick/evil/monstrous for desiring what they consider to be a burden - or indeed, for having a significant physical component to their desires AT ALL. Which is to say - the mainstream is right here. And I don't think it's going away.
> 
> It is, I think a hard thing to acknowlege, but I think it has to be faced - not only are non-bisuzual (F)FAs somewhat screwed cos they only really desire a small % of people i.e. big folks, but we're doubly screwed cos most big folks do not want to be big and don't desire (F)FAs. I've struck lucky before, mind you.... shrugs...
> 
> As far as increasing the peace here is concerned. I'm going to pursue the (fat) positive and do my best to keep my snark levels down, while ignoring most (FA) monstering, unless I think the discussion itself is important.




Errrmmmmm.....most don't come here for "weight loss advice". It's quite clear that it's "forbidden" so your assertion is way off base though I am not disagreeing about the friendship aspect. Nothing wrong with friendships, eh?





superodalisque said:


> indeed! more than anything i find it disheartening how many FAs on the forums write about how ashamed and embarrassed they are about loving fat women. even some of the very thoughtful and intelligent ones who really do try to understand seem to agree with the assumption that there is something wrong with us and their attraction to us is some kind of weird burden they have to carry through life. underneath it i feel there is this odd yearning of "if only i was attracted to someone the media thought was normal." honestly, i never had any idea that a man who was attracted to me was supposed to have freak on until i came to dims because thats how many of the guys presented it. when i sat in a guy's lap it was out of affection and sensuality period. if he enjoyed watching me eat it was because he appreciated my hedonistic way of having what i wanted and not being afraid of my own body like other women. they didn't make me feel "weighed or measured like a pumkin in a 4H contest" as one of my FA friends is fond of saying. those men only made me feel like a woman who was sexy and appreciated by them. here i have been encouraged to separate who i am in my entirety from my body and my actions as a woman. the guys here tend to feel its common for men to be in the closet no matter the fact that they even have a hard time finding single women who are the fattest of them all-- ssbbws. there is nothing less in the closet than making someone your wife or in these days of divorce staying with her even if she becomes fat during a marriage.
> 
> sometimes FAs appear to be agreeing with the worst of what what society has to say about us. lets be honest,unfortunately a lot of the things they like reinforce a stereotype that BBWs abhor --especially IRL. and when BBWs say so they are told that _they_are making FAs feel bad so they shouldn't reveal that. what comes to mind is the big fracas over how some of the BBWs felt about a lot of the art on this site. even though for some it is like the fat version of a step and fetch it show we weren't supposed to say so. i understand that people find it sexually titilating but they should also know that some of us find it insulting just as we know that they like it. why should one group be silent and not another? why is it ok for FAs to be honest and not BBWs? and why? what purpose does it serve other than to project one group as object and another group as the controller of the object? people are saying that certian things that FAs say here hurt and embarrass them just as others hurt or embarrass FAs. does that mean they should never be said anywhere on the forums or never discussed? does that mean that discussion should always be heavily policed and monitored even in a forum set aside for it while in the brother forum to those issues people seem to be given free reign to discuss things no matter how extreme they seem. IMO something is wrong with that picture.
> 
> if you are a woman trying to love yourself why would you think its great that a guy actually shares or agrees with the worst opinions that the rest of society might have about you, especially when you _are_ the happy fat girl trying to change things? the only BBWs a guy who believe the worst deep down is going to attract are the ones who agree on some level with the premise that fat women are generally undesireable as well. he is going to attract women who really don't want to be fat and hate thier bodies. he is going to attract women who don't even veiw themselves as women capable of inspiring love both romantic and sensual on all levels. all he will attract are women who project and think of themselves as a fetish for someone else out of necessity instead of women who might only have a fetish. he will attract women who have given up on believing that they are really even women.



You are magnificent. :bow:



joswitch said:


> For the record, I don't regard being FA as freakish/wrong, nor do I think of BBWs as such... *Some BBWs do think that, tho... *Not all by any means, and I have had LTRs with BBWs who were basically happy being big, and were happy to be loved for all of themselves - as a whole - bigness very much included... And that was great!



You forgot the part where some FAs think that themselves......hence, the closet people. 



superodalisque said:


> exactly. but people can express anything they like including feeding you until you literally explode on the fantasy board. i'm not knocking that but i really can't understand why exploding people is so much more okay than a woman dicussing serious health options for her survival especially since i haven't read of anyone there having surgery unless they felt that it was some kind of last resort? i just don't get it. from what i gather there have been a lot of people reading in there for whom it isn't and shouldn't be an issue other than to discourage it at any cost and complaining about anything they can find to complain about. *i think its this kind if pandering to an element who don't seem to care if women live or die as long as they stay fat and appealing to them makes dims look skewed and even a little crazy.*



QFT



BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> dammmmmit. out of rep sucks. grrrrr.



I got her



fatgirlflyin said:


> I just think they are pathetic, I guess you can count that as ill feelings. *I also believe that they are the majority around here. Sure there are some guys who are vocal and unapologetic about liking fat women around here but most aren't. *
> So again I will ask, if the majority of men come in here insisting they like fat women but are ashamed to tell their friends or family, how exactly are the women here supposed to take them seriously?



Or better yet, asking BBW to "embrace" those that treat/view us as freaks is outrageous and a wholly unrealistic expectation/concept. 

As Supero said in a much longer way.......you reap what you sow. 



joswitch said:


> And by the way - as I'm not a closet case we have hit on one small way in which I do not suck! Tiny yay! for me!



Yay for you  :bow:


----------



## chicken legs

I see alot of bbw's who confuse the fa trait with the rest of the person. If the person is controlling and dominate then he will be a controlling dominate fa. If a person is selfish, then they are going to be a selfish fa. If a guy is caring, then he is going to be a caring fa. If he is a gentlemen, then he is going to be a gentlemenly fa. If a person has issues with being in a serious relationship then..well...you get the point. 


and you can subsitute FA/FFA with BBW/SSBBW or BHM/SSBHM.


----------



## butch

Two things: 1) whether you agree or not with the stance on diet talk and weight loss talk, you can't deny that Dimensions is much more open to both types of talk than any other 'mainstream' established Size Acceptance site. Since those other sites are run by, and mostly visited by, women, it is misleading to characterize the policies here about those two topics as being about pleasing the male FAs of this board.

2) These discussions always boil down to a polarizing debate between male FAs and fat women, talking to each other as if these are two mutually distinct categories. Some of us are fat and FAs, and for us, the way in which this isn't acknowledged, makes the points that each side make less than conclusive, because it assumes there is no overlap in life experiences and perspectives. Some of you don't think these discussions are an 'us' vs. 'them' dynamic, but the absence of dialogue about the FA and fat experience does reduce these discussions to binaries that miss a crucial part of the communication.

I'm fine with sharing my experiences as an FA and a fat woman, but I've been doing it for so long on this site that I'm tired and dismayed that this fact hasn't sunk in for many, and that they are unwilling to craft claims and arguments keeping the perspective of these people in mind. At some point, if we truly do want to find common ground, then those of you who are only FAs or fat need to start including those of us who are both.


----------



## Tina

LoveBHMS said:


> Well now there are numerous places open after 10PM. One of the mods here even actively promotes one of them..


I would like to know just what and who you are talking about here. That's quite an aspersion to cast and then ignore.


----------



## kayrae

butch said:


> Two things: 1) *whether you agree or not with the stance on diet talk and weight loss talk, you can't deny that Dimensions is much more open to both types of talk than any other 'mainstream' established Size Acceptance site. Since those other sites are run by, and mostly visited by, women, it is misleading to characterize the policies here about those two topics as being about pleasing the male FAs of this board.*



On the money. Fatshionista is my favorite go-to size acceptance site. Lesley Kinzel... I have a never-ending fondness for her bold words, bold choices, and general boldness in allowing us to peek, share, and dissect her life. Her site unabashedly discourages diet and weight loss talk, specifically claiming that such chitchat is contrary to size acceptance. In her own words...



> This is not because weight loss is inherently bad or wrong (nor does simply losing weight mean a member is less of a “true” Fatshionista) but because this kind of talk can be extremely triggering for those with histories of eating disorders and body hatred, and allowing it to continue unchecked would create a less size-positive environment.


----------



## LoveBHMS

> Go back to speaking only for that which you already stated you care about...and leave the rest of us out of your "statements of fact". You cannot possibly ever speak for all the BBW on this board so don't try.



Guess what? That whole business about how you can post wherever you want? Applies to everyone. So long as posts are within the rules, anyone can post on the Main Board. Many BBW and SSBBW agreed with me and i never said i spoke of all BBW, just that Kayrae doesn't either.

The way i see it this is just about a angry vocal minority deciding they own Dims and its content. You all determine what "should" be here and don't care at all about many of the other people who have just as much right as you do.


----------



## joswitch

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Errrmmmmm.....most don't come here for "weight loss advice". It's quite clear that it's "forbidden" so your assertion is way off base though I am not disagreeing about the friendship aspect. Nothing wrong with friendships, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot the part where some FAs think that themselves......hence, the closet people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yay for you  :bow:



No, there's nothing at all wrong with friendship.

I didn't say most, I said some. And I disagree, although weight loss talk is ''forbidden'' it's a verrry leaky rule. I read two instances outside the WLS board just in yesterday's browsing. And 
no I didn't report it. One, cos I accept BBWs want to talk about it (I think it should be kept to one modded board, or it will consume all of DIMS). And two, just from my personal POV, I don't want to get intimately involved with any BBW who deeply desires to lose lots of weight... So hearing up front who does potentially saves that heartache again...

Yeah, FGF already tagged the closet cases.

Thanks for the yay!


----------



## joswitch

butch said:


> Two things: 1) whether you agree or not with the stance on diet talk and weight loss talk, you can't deny that Dimensions is much more open to both types of talk than any other 'mainstream' established Size Acceptance site. Since those other sites are run by, and mostly visited by, women, it is misleading to characterize the policies here about those two topics as being about pleasing the male FAs of this board.
> 
> 2) These discussions always boil down to a polarizing debate between male FAs and fat women, talking to each other as if these are two mutually distinct categories. Some of us are fat and FAs, and for us, the way in which this isn't acknowledged, makes the points that each side make less than conclusive, because it assumes there is no overlap in life experiences and perspectives. Some of you don't think these discussions are an 'us' vs. 'them' dynamic, but the absence of dialogue about the FA and fat experience does reduce these discussions to binaries that miss a crucial part of the communication.
> 
> I'm fine with sharing my experiences as an FA and a fat woman, but I've been doing it for so long on this site that I'm tired and dismayed that this fact hasn't sunk in for many, and that they are unwilling to craft claims and arguments keeping the perspective of these people in mind. At some point, if we truly do want to find common ground, then those of you who are only FAs or fat need to start including those of us who are both.



I want to apologise to you Butch and any other fat FA folks similarly offended... I got all tied up in talking about many/most and forgot to mention, the very peeps I <3 that brought me to DIMS in the first place - BBWs who are also FAs. Sorry again. I kick myself.

And thanks for chiming in, I'm really glad you did, not only to provide a timely kick in the arse, :bow:
but also cos you reminded me that there is hope for me, that there are women out there who like/love being fat, who I might be compatible with... Which thought has cheered me up no end!


----------



## butch

joswitch said:


> I want to apologise to you Butch and any other fat FA folks similarly offended... I got all tied up in talking about many/most and forgot to mention, the very peeps I <3 that brought me to DIMS in the first place - BBWs who are also FAs. Sorry again. I kick myself.
> 
> And thanks for chiming in, I'm really glad you did, not only to provide a timely kick in the arse, :bow:
> but also cos you reminded me that there is hope for me, that there are women out there who like/love being fat, who I might be compatible with... Which thought has cheered me up no end!



Well, thank you joswitch, that is very kind of you, especially since I wasn't expecting an apology. 

More importantly, I'm glad I've given you hope, btw, and I hope you find the BBW of your dreams. I'm with a great FA myself, and it is better than I could have imagined. :blush:


----------



## superj707

> The reason is two-fold: the legitimisation of fat attraction depends on the legitimisation of fat as a body type; and as you fall in love with a fat partner, you yearn to live in a world that treats her as beautifully as it would if she were thin.



I agree with this so much. I say hopefully this website along with all the other similar websites that exist are starting to reach out and really make a dent. Thank god for the freedom on the internet. It's the one media not totally controlled by big money (yet) Having our voices be heard is really important. We should not be squabelling amongst ourselves so much as we should speak loudly together to say that being fat is okay. 

my two cents. 
GREAT post.


----------



## BigCutieSasha

kayrae said:


> Jay, I'll have a far better analysis later, but I wanted to respond to Donna. I think one of Dimensions' biggest problem is that it hasn't changed or evolved into the direction that it should go. I've said it plenty of times, Dimensions is no longer a magazine. New content is pretty much provided by the people who choose to participate in the forums.
> 
> Conrad, if you're listening... as a publisher you know that change is imminent. You have to change in order to compete in the market. If you just look at the web design, Dimensions hasn't changed since Aug. 2008 when I joined. I'm guessing it hasn't changed for even far longer than that. If you look at the two biggest social networking sites like Facebook and Myspace... who won the market in the end? Facebook. And it's because it had the ability to change and re-invent itself based on user demand. And understandably, this website might have just grown old hat to you... but it definitely has the potential to be what it once was for other people while still catering to an entirely new crowd. This FA vs BBW biz is old old old hat.
> 
> And why not be resourceful? There is a shit ton of people on Dimensions. I bet some lurker with some magical web design skill is willing to help... all for the love of the great foundation that's already been laid out. Carefully pick your best and brightest members, people you entrust to continue on this legacy. Create an application process if necessary. Massively re-design, re-invent, and re-haul this website. I am most certainly willing to help, but only if we do it in a careful and calculated manner.
> 
> And can we all please stop making BBWs feel that they/we don't belong here? Without the sense of community and support that BBWs offer, this website will tank. Because let's keep it real, if you cut the good fat out, then what do you have left?



Maybe if you have such a great vision of what a size acceptance board should be (even though this isn't size acceptance and has been explain many times) you should start one with all your knowledge and kick ass opinions where BBWs who feel oppressed can run free in cyberspace without the objectification they get here. I really don't get where this


> And can we all please stop making BBWs feel that they/we don't belong here?


 comes from. No one says you don't belong! I'm sorry but


> Without the sense of community and support that BBWs offer, this website will tank. Because let's keep it real, if you cut the good fat out, then what do you have left?


 Really? Every single group of people here FA, BBW, SSBBW, BHM, FFA, everyone is a key part of what makes this place. Saying that BBWs are the "good fat" of this place is so self righteous. I know and love plenty of BBW's on these boards who don't think like you. Who come here and take what they can from the boards and leave the rest. Why is that so hard for others to do? Also I'm going to say if there is anyone this site wouldn't work well without, it's the FAs, you know the people this forum was started for??

There are things about Dims I don't agree with, don't like or don't care for. But I manage to avoid those places, people and topics and take what I can from this place. I don't post very often anymore for the reasons I just stated, but when I see posts like this it frustrates me to no end. If you don't like it, don't come here and expect everything to change to how you like it.


----------



## Tina

LoveBHMS said:


> Well now there are numerous places open after 10PM. One of the mods here even actively promotes one of them..





Tina said:


> I would like to know just what and who you are talking about here. That's quite an aspersion to cast and then actively ignore.



cow·ard·ice:
noun
lack of courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.


----------



## KHayes666

Tina said:


> cow·ard·ice:
> noun
> lack of courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.



bus·y (bz)
adj. bus·i·er, bus·i·est
1. Engaged in activity, as work; occupied.


----------



## Scorsese86

fatgirlflyin said:


> I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "*I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it*." You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?



Anyone who says what's in bold there, can't be a real FA. What the heck is wrong with saying that? 
I think I am the freak, 'cause I can't understand "the closet" thing.


----------



## Plump_Princess

Very well said.

And as far as a "forum" goes, it's not really the design that will determine its success, it's the people who participate and are involved. *shrugs*.




MsSasha said:


> Maybe if you have such a great vision of what a size acceptance board should be (even though this isn't size acceptance and has been explain many times) you should start one with all your knowledge and kick ass opinions where BBWs who feel oppressed can run free in cyberspace without the objectification they get here. I really don't get where this comes from. No one says you don't belong! I'm sorry but Really? Every single group of people here FA, BBW, SSBBW, BHM, FFA, everyone is a key part of what makes this place. Saying that BBWs are the "good fat" of this place is so self righteous. I know and love plenty of BBW's on these boards who don't think like you. Who come here and take what they can from the boards and leave the rest. Why is that so hard for others to do? Also I'm going to say if there is anyone this site wouldn't work well without, it's the FAs, you know the people this forum was started for??
> 
> There are things about Dims I don't agree with, don't like or don't care for. But I manage to avoid those places, people and topics and take what I can from this place. I don't post very often anymore for the reasons I just stated, but when I see posts like this it frustrates me to no end. If you don't like it, don't come here and expect everything to change to how you like it.


----------



## Tina

not.too.busy.to.post.to.or.PM.others: 
1. avoiding the issue after throwing it out there.

Has made several posts while avoiding both a post and a PM asking for clarification.


----------



## chicken legs

fatgirlflyin said:


> I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "*I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it."* You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?



This is known as a booty call.


----------



## msbard90

Honestly, I think that some issues on this website could be resolved if people could just spend some time living life, and off of this page. Like those reality shows, if 100 percent of time spent is with eachother, fighting and drama are inevitable. (I know a lot of it is scripted... blah blah not the point). If people had enough self control to instead of write a hurtful response to someone out of haste, just say you know what, I'm going to give myself time away and come back when I'm being productive. A lot of the drama starts when people are bored on this site after spending days and days on it, and don't tell me people don't.... I was for a while. People start random threads that piss people off, people argue and bicker and question moderators and conspire against eachother and Conrad etc etc I don't need to go on explaining what CRAP is going on here. So, long story short- if you're spending so much time on here that you know every member's underwear color at any given moment, you might need a break. If you feel like you can't stand these people and want to bash their heads in because they're annoying you worse than your little brother (trust, I've had those moments), you might need a break. If you're so preoccupied in editing the grammatical errors in another poster's reply, you might need a new hobby. Just saying. 


xx 
msbard- making dims a better place


----------



## fatgirlflyin

I know what a booty call is and it isn't what I was talking about nor what I described.


chicken legs said:


> This is known as a booty call.


----------



## superodalisque

msbard90 said:


> Honestly, I think that some issues on this website could be resolved if people could just spend some time living life, and off of this page. Like those reality shows, if 100 percent of time spent is with eachother, fighting and drama are inevitable. (I know a lot of it is scripted... blah blah not the point). If people had enough self control to instead of write a hurtful response to someone out of haste, just say you know what, I'm going to give myself time away and come back when I'm being productive. A lot of the drama starts when people are bored on this site after spending days and days on it, and don't tell me people don't.... I was for a while. People start random threads that piss people off, people argue and bicker and question moderators and conspire against eachother and Conrad etc etc I don't need to go on explaining what CRAP is going on here. So, long story short- if you're spending so much time on here that you know every member's underwear color at any given moment, you might need a break. If you feel like you can't stand these people and want to bash their heads in because they're annoying you worse than your little brother (trust, I've had those moments), you might need a break. If you're so preoccupied in editing the grammatical errors in another poster's reply, you might need a new hobby. Just saying.
> 
> 
> xx
> msbard- making dims a better place



i couldn't agree more.


----------



## Tina

fatgirlflyin said:


> I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it." You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?


I very much hope they would be able to recognize a douche when they see one and pass him by while not internalizing it. I know what the odds are, but I still have hope.


----------



## Tina

BTW, I want to make it clear that I realize that everyone has their own time frame for owning their shit, whether it's preferences or what ever. And I'm not trying to demonize FAs who have not yet been able to build the confidence to come out. So I do not mean to call all non-out FAs "douches," because I don't think that would be accurate. But I just hope that women and girls who see this stuff, again, will not internalize it. It can be hard not to, depending upon one's experiences, age, and where they are on the path to having a positive self-image regardless of society lobbing turds at fat people.


----------



## msbard90

fatgirlflyin said:


> I'm curious to know abot how much of that is based on the countless number of posts around here filled with "woe is me, I like fat girls and no one understands me" or "I like fat girls but I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it." You know, the whole in the closet thing. If these men go through life thinking they are freaks because they like women who look like me, what are the women who look like me supposed to think?



There are also so many "lame" BBW threads out there too, like oooh am I a bbw or not?? This site was created and thrives on the concept of self discovery. I just tend to stay away from that crap. Hey people are blogging about these things because it means a lot to them and Dims just seems like a good place to wear your heart on your sleeve, ya know....


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

LoveBHMS said:


> Guess what? That whole business about how you can post wherever you want? Applies to everyone. So long as posts are within the rules, anyone can post on the Main Board. Many BBW and SSBBW agreed with me and i never said i spoke of all BBW, just that Kayrae doesn't either.
> 
> The way i see it this is just about a angry vocal minority deciding they own Dims and its content. You all determine what "should" be here and don't care at all about many of the other people who have just as much right as you do.



Lol, never told you where to post, now did I? and you DID state it as absolute fact that NO ONE IS DOING IT TO BBW....so once again, how in the hell would YOU know? 

Whatever you're on about, that's all fine and good but stop talking like you know something about BBW or their experiences here. Period. Doesn't make a damn difference how many people you name in an attempt to give your words "clout", you still CANNOT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE HERE.....nor do you get to tell others that their experiences have or have not been.

Yeah, yeah, I know how you like to keep saying you got yourself some BBW friends......but we both know you don't know them all. 


Simple enough. 



joswitch said:


> No, there's nothing at all wrong with friendship.
> 
> I didn't say most, I said some. And I disagree, although weight loss talk is ''forbidden'' it's a verrry leaky rule. I read two instances outside the WLS board just in yesterday's browsing. And
> no I didn't report it. One, cos I accept BBWs want to talk about it (I think it should be kept to one modded board, or it will consume all of DIMS). And two, just from my personal POV, I don't want to get intimately involved with any BBW who deeply desires to lose lots of weight... So hearing up front who does potentially saves that heartache again...
> 
> Yeah, FGF already tagged the closet cases.
> 
> Thanks for the yay!



Personally.....I have never seen it myself. But then again, I don't hang around on the WLS board usually. Not interested in it. 

Why are you there, out of curiosity.....and why would you report posts about it?


----------



## Tina

LoveBHMS said:


> Well now there are numerous places open after 10PM. One of the mods here even actively promotes one of them..


I think if you are going to hide when asked to be responsible for accusations you make, you should retract those accusations or have some ovaries and face them head on instead of running away.


----------



## chicken legs

fatgirlflyin said:


> I know what a booty call is and it isn't what I was talking about nor what I described.



From what I have seen on the description of "closet FA", IMO, is equal to treating someone like a booty call.


----------



## joswitch

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Personally.....I have never seen it myself. But then again, I don't hang around on the WLS board usually. Not interested in it.
> 
> Why are you there, out of curiosity.....and why would you report posts about it?



No, I said the instances of forbidden-weightloss-talk were OUTSIDE i.e. NOT on the WLS board (the WLS board being where you would reasonably expect to find weightloss talk).

And I said, I did NOT report those posts about the-forbidden-subject-of-weightloss that I saw. 

I hope that clears that up.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

joswitch, talking about weight loss as it relates to health is permitted on Dimensions. What is *not* permitted is talking about in such a way that delves into specific weight loss diets or numbers. For example, "My doctor put me on a low-meat diet because my gallbladder was acting up, and as a consequence I've lost some weight," would be a perfectly relevant comment, especially on the health board, whereas "I just started the latest fad diet and lost a bajilliondy pounds" would not be.


----------



## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

BigBeautifulMe said:


> joswitch, talking about weight loss as it relates to health is permitted on Dimensions. What is *not* permitted is talking about in such a way that delves into specific weight loss diets or numbers. For example, "My doctor put me on a low-meat diet because my gallbladder was acting up, and as a consequence I've lost some weight," would be a perfectly relevant comment, especially on the health board, whereas "I just started the latest fad diet and lost a bajilliondy pounds" would not be.



that's just simply not true. I have read time and time again where people announce oh Ive lost 30 lbs ect ect. It's really hard to swallow when there are those of us, like myself who would like to discuss such things, but cant, when people who are smaller than me can blab away.

I never report it because there is no point anymore.


----------



## LoveBHMS

BigBeautifulMe said:


> joswitch, talking about weight loss as it relates to health is permitted on Dimensions. What is *not* permitted is talking about in such a way that delves into specific weight loss diets or numbers. For example, "My doctor put me on a low-meat diet because my gallbladder was acting up, and as a consequence I've lost some weight," would be a perfectly relevant comment, especially on the health board, whereas "I just started the latest fad diet and lost a bajilliondy pounds" would not be.



I understand the difference in those two quotations, but honestly it seems like from several comments, most notably the issues that BeautifulPoeticDisaster faced in the WLS Board, is it possible that there need to be either more stringent rules or more clarification about existing rules?

While i personally feel weight loss talk should be allowed, i understand and respect that it is not and also understand many posters don't want it. However the emphasis on health i think makes things murky. I feel like oftentimes people are forced to use health as something of a disclaimer if/when they want to discuss weight loss. It seems like a lot of posts are along the lines of "I want to lose weight for my health" and this is being said to justify or rationalize a desire to lose weight and discuss it. I also see a lot of posts from FA that make me uncomfortable because i feel like they're saying "It's ok to lose just enough weight to overcome a particular physical health issue but after that, you're just a socially manipulated sheep who is losing for the wrong reasons." 

I also feel sometimes like some FAs will understate health issues, along the lines of "Oh the health risks of weight are overstated" which always makes me uncomfortable as there is a potential undertone of self interest in those comments.

Needless to say, the idea of "health" can be broad and includes physical, mental, and social health. If being a certain size makes you stressed out or uncomfortable but your blood pressure and mobility are ok, is losing weight still considered to be 'for your health' and is that ok to discuss here? What about no obvious current health problems but a family history of stroke or high cholesterol or arthritis? What about if you're perfectly happy being a size 34 but want to get down to a 28 to be able to shop at Torrid? Or more potentially contentious, what if you're a 28 and want to get down to a 6 because you hate Torrid and want to shop at Abercrombie and Fitch?


----------



## mszwebs

LoveBHMS said:


> I understand the difference in those two quotations, but honestly it seems like from several comments, most notably the issues that BeautifulPoeticDisaster faced in the WLS Board, is it possible that there need to be either more stringent rules or more clarification about existing rules?
> 
> While i personally feel weight loss talk should be allowed, i understand and respect that it is not and also understand many posters don't want it. However the emphasis on health i think makes things murky. I feel like oftentimes people are forced to use health as something of a disclaimer if/when they want to discuss weight loss. It seems like a lot of posts are along the lines of "I want to lose weight for my health" and this is being said to justify or rationalize a desire to lose weight and discuss it. I also see a lot of posts from FA that make me uncomfortable because i feel like they're saying "It's ok to lose just enough weight to overcome a particular physical health issue but after that, you're just a socially manipulated sheep who is losing for the wrong reasons."
> 
> I also feel sometimes like some FAs will understate health issues, along the lines of "Oh the health risks of weight are overstated" which always makes me uncomfortable as there is a potential undertone of self interest in those comments.
> 
> Needless to say, the idea of "health" can be broad and includes physical, mental, and social health. If being a certain size makes you stressed out or uncomfortable but your blood pressure and mobility are ok, is losing weight still considered to be 'for your health' and is that ok to discuss here? What about no obvious current health problems but a family history of stroke or high cholesterol or arthritis? What about if you're perfectly happy being a size 34 but want to get down to a 28 to be able to shop at Torrid? Or more potentially contentious, what if you're a 28 and want to get down to a 6 because you hate Torrid and want to shop at Abercrombie and Fitch?



^^^This^^^


----------



## fatgirlflyin

msbard90 said:


> There are also so many "lame" BBW threads out there too, like oooh am I a bbw or not?? This site was created and thrives on the concept of self discovery. I just tend to stay away from that crap. Hey people are blogging about these things because it means a lot to them and Dims just seems like a good place to wear your heart on your sleeve, ya know....



Not quite seeing how you are comparing someone asking if the label of BBW could be applied to them, to posts about being ashamed of liking fat women. 

One is trying to find a place where you feel you belong and the other is posint about how you are ashamed to admit you like fat women. Now while I find those posts annoying, it at least gives me an idea of the men I should stay away from (even more so if I were single). So I guess they are doing women here a favor by posting that crap.


----------



## kayrae

Why do people claim that Dimensions isn't about size acceptance? You do this community disservice by implying otherwise... um, because if it's not about size acceptance what's it about? 

FYI:


----------



## vardon_grip

fatgirlflyin said:


> Not quite seeing how you are comparing someone asking if the label of BBW could be applied to them, to posts about being ashamed of liking fat women.
> 
> One is trying to find a place where you feel you belong and the other is posting about how you are ashamed to admit you like fat women. Now while I find those posts *annoying*, it at least gives me an idea of the men I should stay away from (even more so if I were single). So I guess they are doing women here a favor by posting that *crap*.



Now THAT'S a booty call if I've ever seen a booty call!!!


----------



## BigCutieSasha

kayrae said:


> Why do people claim that Dimensions isn't about size acceptance? You do this community disservice by implying otherwise... um, because if it's not about size acceptance what's it about?
> 
> FYI:





Webmaster said:


> As of late, I've been seeing a battle between those who think Dimensions is a strict size acceptance site and our inclusion of the social and sexual side of things is deplorable, and those who think preferring fat is just a fetish. Both sides are wrong.
> 
> Initially, Dimensions was created as a special interest group for men who preferred fat partners. But almost since the beginning Dimensions has been a forum for both fat people and those who find them attractive. For FAs, Dimensions is a place where they can talk and learn about their preference, and find forums, fictions, pictures, advice and plenty more. For fat people, it's a place where they can learn about their admirers and see the beauty and attractiveness in their bodies.
> 
> I specifically took Dimensions out of NAAFA a long time ago because I did not want for this special purpose to interfere with NAAFA's more politically-oriented brand of size acceptance. Needless to say, Dimensions is VERY much in favor of size acceptance, even though our contribution, in addition to having within our ranks some of the most dedicated size acceptance activists, is more in the areas of social opportunity and personal affirmation. So those who diss Dimensions for being a forum where those attracted to fat people can explore and discuss their desires and needs probably misunderstand our community's basic purpose.
> 
> *So that's what Dimensions is and has always been, a size-positive place for FAs and the people they admire. Nothing more and nothing less.*



To say this site is a full on size acceptance site is wrong. It does incorporate it, but it's not JUST about it.


----------



## joswitch

BigBeautifulMe said:


> joswitch, talking about weight loss as it relates to health is permitted on Dimensions. What is *not* permitted is talking about in such a way that delves into specific weight loss diets or numbers. For example, "My doctor put me on a low-meat diet because my gallbladder was acting up, and as a consequence I've lost some weight," would be a perfectly relevant comment, especially on the health board, whereas "I just started the latest fad diet and lost a bajilliondy pounds" would not be.



Yes, I already knew that, when making my points above, thanks.

And once more FTR - my original point to Steve on page 2 was that weightloss support is part of the reason why SOME folks come here.

And - people want to talk about it, so I support the idea there should be a specific, modded board for it, where people can talk about it WHATEVER their reasons and whether they are PRO or CON weightloss per. se. or specific methods/motivations. It doesn't matter. Everyone should have their voice. And if it's on one board people who don't want to hear it can choose not to.


----------



## Tina

There are a lot of things I can tolerate in a person, but I never could respect something like casting aspersions and then not being willing to back them up. LBHMS, if you're afraid to own up to them, even in private, keep your accusations to yourself. For some reason, I had thought you'd have more gumption, but considering, I guess I should have known better. Have fun with your gossip and shit.


----------



## KHayes666

Tina said:


> There are a lot of things I can tolerate in a person, but I never could respect a coward. LBHMS, you are dishonorable and cowardly for flinging up accusations but not being able to own up to them, even in private. For some reason, I had thought you'd have more gumption, but considering, I guess I should have known better. Have fun with your gossip and shit.



Why does it bother you so much?


----------



## Tina

Why would I answer your question when she will not even acknowledge my own request for her to tell us who this mod is and what exactly the egregious trespass is, instead of tossing that out here and then running away like a fearful child? Kevin, why not encourage her to answer, instead of me? For, if she does, and honestly, you will then see my own answer.

You can quit shaking in your boots now, LBHMS. Unless you are willing to actually own your accusation like a _real_ adult, this will be my last post on the issue.


----------



## mossystate

T, I agree that the carrot bait is a lil ' sneaky '. Some folks might not want to say much more than what they say, because when it is done...when a mod is shown to be doing some really not OK stuff ( I don't have a horse in this race, cuz I do not give a shit about the particulars of this ' accusation ' )...posts can disappear...whole threads can be deleted. Not saying that would happen here, just that when it does, folks know who has the power to decide how much honesty is fine and dandy. Just another way to look at situations like this.


----------



## Tina

M, I do not believe it applies here, though, because I believe that I am the one who is being obliquely accused, and I never have and would not do what you have outlined. 

Go ahead, lbhms, deny it. Then again, you probably would, because if you're bold enough to make an unfounded accusation but too ascared to address it here, _or even privately in PM, which is what I was first aiming for_, I can't expect you would be woman enough to own up to it now.


----------



## mossystate

T, I honestly know you wouldn't, as you have that ethical thing going for you, but it doesn't mean it might not cross minds, seeing how it has been done. Maybe just another inconsistency that should be tightened up a bit. Or not. lol


----------



## chicken legs

I think Dims should host a pay-per-view (or clips for sale) of Tina Vs. Lvbhms covered in oil in blow up pool....ok the perv fa came out...sorry.:blush:


----------



## Tina

Chicken Legs, you won't be seeing this, because I'm done and want no further drama. Anything else, if lbhms has the guts to address it face on with me in private, can be done via PM.


----------



## Fat Brian

Things were better when we had boobs. Ever since we lost the boobs its been a downward spiral. That's whats wrong with the terrorists, no more boobs, then the next thing you know you've got a jacket full of C4 and you're headed to the bus station.


----------



## Victim

I haven't gone away completely, it's just that 'busy' thang. Nobody here has the ability to run me off.


----------



## Paquito

kayrae said:


> Why do people claim that Dimensions isn't about size acceptance? You do this community disservice by implying otherwise... um, because if it's not about size acceptance what's it about?
> 
> FYI:



Since I can't rep you, I just wanted to say THANK YOU for the part about size-acceptance in Dimensions. I mean wtf, that's what Dimensions is! It's the political, social, sexual, etc. parts of size acceptance. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it's just about sexual aspects with no respect for others. Makes me sad.


----------



## BigBeautifulMe

If you see people posting about how proud they are to have lost 30 (etc) pounds on a diet meant for weight loss purposes, report it. We can't get things that aren't reported. If you're not sure if it's okay or not, report it. At least we get a chance to evaluate it then.


----------



## Littleghost

butch said:


> Two things: 1) whether you agree or not with the stance on diet talk and weight loss talk, you can't deny that Dimensions is much more open to both types of talk than any other 'mainstream' established Size Acceptance site. Since those other sites are run by, and mostly visited by, women, it is misleading to characterize the policies here about those two topics as being about pleasing the male FAs of this board.
> 
> 2) These discussions always boil down to a polarizing debate between male FAs and fat women, talking to each other as if these are two mutually distinct categories. Some of us are fat and FAs, and for us, the way in which this isn't acknowledged, makes the points that each side make less than conclusive, because it assumes there is no overlap in life experiences and perspectives. Some of you don't think these discussions are an 'us' vs. 'them' dynamic, but the absence of dialogue about the FA and fat experience does reduce these discussions to binaries that miss a crucial part of the communication.
> 
> I'm fine with sharing my experiences as an FA and a fat woman, but I've been doing it for so long on this site that I'm tired and dismayed that this fact hasn't sunk in for many, and that they are unwilling to craft claims and arguments keeping the perspective of these people in mind. At some point, if we truly do want to find common ground, then those of you who are only FAs or fat need to start including those of us who are both.



^^^Dammit, people, PAY ATTENTION TO THIS POST. :bow: ...Also, rep her for me.


----------



## Gendo Ikari

kayrae said:


> Why do people claim that Dimensions isn't about size acceptance? You do this community disservice by implying otherwise... um, because if it's not about size acceptance what's it about?
> 
> FYI:


Since you seem to appreciate people who say whats on their mind without sugarcoating it, I'll be blunt.

Fuck size acceptance.

It's become an annoyance to me, perhaps on the same level I am to others.


----------



## Jes

Gendo Ikari said:


> Fuck size acceptance.
> 
> It's become an annoyance to me, perhaps on the same level I am to others.



Well NOW we are getting somewhere!!


----------



## Gendo Ikari

Jes said:


> Well NOW we are getting somewhere!!


Yeah, me on the train to banishment, lol.


----------



## Blackjack

Gendo Ikari said:


> Since you seem to appreciate people who say whats on their mind without sugarcoating it, I'll be blunt.
> 
> Fuck size acceptance.
> 
> It's become an annoyance to me, perhaps on the same level I am to others.



The level of selfish arrogance you've just shown is disgusting. You're into fat chicks, you're gaining yourself, and you consider size acceptance to be "an annoyance"?


----------



## Gendo Ikari

Blackjack said:


> The level of selfish arrogance you've just shown is disgusting. You're into fat chicks, you're gaining yourself, and you consider size acceptance to be "an annoyance"?


To me personally. Might not be to others and certainly not to you.


----------



## Wagimawr

Why? What could possibly be wrong with the idea of saying it's okay to be whatever size you want to be, and that such choices should be respected?

It doesn't even stop you from getting your freak on.


----------



## Gendo Ikari

Wagimawr said:


> Why? What could possibly be wrong with the idea of saying it's okay to be whatever size you want to be, and that such choices should be respected?
> 
> It doesn't even stop you from getting your freak on.


Nothing wrong with it at all. Wonderful concept. Just has become an annoyance to ME caused by people like kayrae.


----------



## Wagimawr

So say "fuck annoying people that promote size acceptance" instead. Much clearer.


----------



## Gendo Ikari

Wagimawr said:


> So say "fuck annoying people that promote size acceptance" instead. Much clearer.


Indeed.

Again, flair for the dramatics.


----------



## Blackjack

Gendo Ikari said:


> Again, flair for the dramatics.



a.k.a., "trolling"


----------



## Gendo Ikari

Blackjack said:


> a.k.a., "trolling"


Guilty as charged Murphy.


----------



## James

KHayes666 said:


> Too many posts to multi quote.
> 
> One poster said that so many boards divides people and creatures sub-cultures, that's because too many people couldn't get along and wouldn't abide by the rules so the rules had to be changed and boards had to be made to keep peace.



This is an oft-forgotten point. Perhaps the primary (but not sole) driver for the formation of the FA/FFA board was to create a protected fall back position that would be fortified against the barrage of negativity that many FA/FFAs were increasingly feeling on the main board, weight board and others. I conceed that it is quite possible that the idea of creating a defended space was antagonistic to some but it was not the origin of the issues we have been discussing here. They have been around for quite a while longer.


----------



## exile in thighville

Fat Brian said:


> Things were better when we had boobs.



we the humans


----------



## superodalisque

James said:


> This is an oft-forgotten point. Perhaps the primary (but not sole) driver for the formation of the FA/FFA board was to create a protected fall back position that would be fortified against the barrage of negativity that many FA/FFAs were increasingly feeling on the main board, weight board and others. I conceed that it is quite possible that the idea of creating a defended space was antagonistic to some but it was not the origin of the issues we have been discussing here. They have been around for quite a while longer.




i think if it were decided some of the forums would be taken away the only way it could work is if people who personal attacked or ridiculed other people and their right to have an opinion would finally have to be banned or at least suspended for various periods. i think what led to this problem is the unwillingness to get rid of people who disrespect the right others to have their opinions way of life and even just their personal thoughts and fantasies. allowing people to continue trying to squash people they disagree with instead of just trying to challenge the ideas has led to this. i know its a hard decision to ban or suspend people--especially folks you like and get. especially people who may have great salient points but chose a very messy way of getting those across. but maybe thats the only way to finally get control of some of the unnecessarily disrespectful behavior. we all make mistakes because we are human being and our emotions are going to run away with us sometimes. but maybe there needs to be more incentives and consequences to encourage people to be more careful in how we treat each other. unfortunately when you try and get rid of folks it looks as though you are trying to get rid of their ideas which makes it even harder--especially when what they are trying to get across is important and meaningful. and especially knowing that other people who empathize with the ideas will also tend to take it as an assault on their beliefs rather than on someone's behavior.

by allowing it to go on maybe we have been saying that its okay and people have the right to do it? maybe we've justified their behavior? but in the end people who can talk together without diminishing each other personally start feeling as though they don't have a home. so maybe we've sacrificed community and learning together just to keep people who seem hostile toward looking at some one else's point of view happy. i'm not sure we should be doing that anymore because it seems that nothing is ever going to be enough and its keeping the majority of people who want understanding between us apart when we should be discussing things together.


----------



## James

superodalisque said:


> i think if it were decided some of the forums would be taken away the only way it could work is if people who personal attacked or ridiculed other people and their right to have an opinion would finally have to be banned or at least suspended for various periods. i think what led to this problem is the unwillingness to get rid of people who disrespect the right others to have their opinions way of life and even just their personal thoughts and fantasies. allowing people to continue trying to squash people they disagree with instead of just trying to challenge the ideas has led to this. i know its a hard decision to ban or suspend people--especially folks you like and get. especially people who may have great salient points but chose a very messy way of getting those across. but maybe thats the only way to finally get control of some of the unnecessarily disrespectful behavior. we all make mistakes because we are human being and our emotions are going to run away with us sometimes. but maybe there needs to be more incentives and consequences to encourage people to be more careful in how we treat each other. unfortunately when you try and get rid of folks it looks as though you are trying to get rid of their ideas which makes it even harder--especially when what they are trying to get across is important and meaningful. and especially knowing that other people who empathize with the ideas will also tend to take it as an assault on their beliefs rather than on someone's behavior.
> 
> by allowing it to go on maybe we have been saying that its okay and people have the right to do it? maybe we've justified their behavior? but in the end people who can talk together without diminishing each other personally start feeling as though they don't have a home. so maybe we've sacrificed community and learning together just to keep people who seem hostile toward looking at some one else's point of view happy. i'm not sure we should be doing that anymore because it seems that nothing is ever going to be enough and its keeping the majority of people who want understanding between us apart when we should be discussing things together.



We should be discussing things together and we can always do so in the protected forums, as well as the many other non-special interest forums on dims. This is always valuable. There is also value to people of similar experience having the right to give testimony and discuss their common experience. I'm certain that this peer to peer support is important in its own right also. We can't love other well until we know and love ourselves for who/what we are. What is needed is patience and respect for the differences between our experiences and for each other at the same time.

I agree with the difficulties of moderation and how moderation is often undermined when one poster gets half a dozen chances to change and another gets none (or just one or two). Its very hard indeed to create a fair and evenly applied system but the mods are always looking at ways to make this work better.


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## fatgirlflyin

James said:


> This is an oft-forgotten point. Perhaps the primary (but not sole) driver for the formation of the FA/FFA board was to create a protected fall back position that would be fortified against the barrage of negativity that many FA/FFAs were increasingly feeling on the main board, weight board and others. I conceed that it is quite possible that the idea of creating a defended space was antagonistic to some but it was not the origin of the issues we have been discussing here. They have been around for quite a while longer.



what exactly are you discussing there? FA "myths", coddling and hand-holding and "you can do it" type messages for the men/women who don't have the fortitude to like what they like and not be concerned what their friends and family think? All of this while not really allowing discussion by people with different opinions. As soon as some one says anything that doesn't sound like they are supporting some of the hairbrained ideas that come forward in that forum they are censored. 

I will say again, that the separate boards have caused more harm than good. The only conversation they have fostered is between like minded people, and while that's great and all, we really need to have everyone talking to each other. Otherwise you get all kinds of people feeling that whole "us vs. them" thing that we've been hearing so much about lately.


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## TraciJo67

superodalisque said:


> i think if it were decided some of the forums would be taken away the only way it could work is if people who personal attacked or ridiculed other people and their right to have an opinion would finally have to be banned or at least suspended for various periods. i think what led to this problem is the unwillingness to get rid of people who disrespect the right others to have their opinions way of life and even just their personal thoughts and fantasies. allowing people to continue trying to squash people they disagree with instead of just trying to challenge the ideas has led to this. i know its a hard decision to ban or suspend people--especially folks you like and get. especially people who may have great salient points but chose a very messy way of getting those across. but maybe thats the only way to finally get control of some of the unnecessarily disrespectful behavior. we all make mistakes because we are human being and our emotions are going to run away with us sometimes. but maybe there needs to be more incentives and consequences to encourage people to be more careful in how we treat each other. unfortunately when you try and get rid of folks it looks as though you are trying to get rid of their ideas which makes it even harder--especially when what they are trying to get across is important and meaningful. and especially knowing that other people who empathize with the ideas will also tend to take it as an assault on their beliefs rather than on someone's behavior.
> 
> by allowing it to go on maybe we have been saying that its okay and people have the right to do it? maybe we've justified their behavior? but in the end people who can talk together without diminishing each other personally start feeling as though they don't have a home. so maybe we've sacrificed community and learning together just to keep people who seem hostile toward looking at some one else's point of view happy. i'm not sure we should be doing that anymore because it seems that nothing is ever going to be enough and its keeping the majority of people who want understanding between us apart when we should be discussing things together.


 
SuperO, with respect (truly: I love how you express yourself and agree with you 99.9% of the time; also I view you as someone who views fairness as being a very important personal trait) ... most of those who have been branded troublemakers -- fairly or otherwise, whether or not we debate that particular issue -- are no longer here. Some have been banned, others simply choose not to post anymore. The vocal element of "us" who clashed with the "them" side (in general terms) is no more. So bottom line, why is this issue still even being discussed? Those who still feel attacked or diminished -- in all seriousness -- where is it happening? When was the last time [the general] you were called to task for the hot-button issues that we're all, by now, well aware of?


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## superodalisque

fatgirlflyin said:


> what exactly are you discussing there? FA "myths", coddling and hand-holding and "you can do it" type messages for the men/women who don't have the fortitude to like what they like and not be concerned what their friends and family think? All of this while not really allowing discussion by people with different opinions. As soon as some one says anything that doesn't sound like they are supporting some of the hairbrained ideas that come forward in that forum they are censored.
> 
> I will say again, that the separate boards have caused more harm than good. The only conversation they have fostered is between like minded people, and while that's great and all, we really need to have everyone talking to each other. Otherwise you get all kinds of people feeling that whole "us vs. them" thing that we've been hearing so much about lately.



i do feel we have enabled a lot of FAs not to grow out of the i'm unsure and feel sorry for myself stage. at some point all of us have to grow up and be responsible for ourselves and our actions and even our thoughts. i think its good to be sensitive to people who are new to being an FA but only to a point. you can't justify them in nurturing feelings that can only handicap them and their partners in the long term. just the same as you can't coddle BBWs too long to stay in that "i hate my body " stage". its not okay to be feeling that way. at some point you need to either change your body or change yourself and live full on. people who are more experienced or know better would be cheating them of more time they could be spending actually enjoying life and a preference if they don't call people on their perceptions and make them think. but on the other end we can still say that without making people into the worst thing coming or going.


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## superodalisque

TraciJo67 said:


> SuperO, with respect (truly: I love how you express yourself and agree with you 99.9% of the time; also I view you as someone who views fairness as being a very important personal trait) ... most of those who have been branded troublemakers -- fairly or otherwise, whether or not we debate that particular issue -- are no longer here. Some have been banned, others simply choose not to post anymore. The vocal element of "us" who clashed with the "them" side (in general terms) is no more. So bottom line, why is this issue still even being discussed? Those who still feel attacked or diminished -- in all seriousness -- where is it happening? When was the last time [the general] you were called to task for the hot-button issues that we're all, by now, well aware of?



i agree that things have improved a whole lot. i'm really proud of whats been happening lately.


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## mossystate

Hmmmm, I don't think the separate forums have caused more harm than good. I think they are fairly neutral in that respect. I have said it on the bbw forum...a place to catch your breath only means that, in the long run. Those who ' hide out ' in there are probably few ( and who cares if they do that ), and some of those people might need the like minded at first, to boost confidence to then move on to include delving into more of a variety of conversation with others, out in the general population. We are talking about people who, no matter the age, can be coming from lives that have left them pretty shell shocked. There are still places that people of whatever group can and do discuss subjects similar to those found in the ' protected ' forums. No, I think all ' this ' goes muuuuuuuch deeper. Not having those forums is not going to change anything. Goes muuuuuuch deeper. But it is a clever smokescreen ( not talking about you, or any particular members, ella... at all, as I do get why you are saying what you did ). Muuuuuuuch deeper.


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## TraciJo67

superodalisque said:


> i agree that things have improved a whole lot. i'm really proud of whats been happening lately.


 
I didn't say that I feel that things have improved, although certainly, by one measure (the number of battles raging in various threads have significantly diminished) I can see where you would feel that way.


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## fatgirlflyin

mossystate said:


> But it is a clever smokescreen ( not talking about you, or any particular members, ella... at all, as I do get why you are saying what you did ). Muuuuuuuch deeper.



I know, and I really really wish that I could agree that they are helpful. I was in favor of the idea of both boards at the beginning. I just see way too many people being told they can't participate because they don't fit into a specific category. 

A segregated community is not a strong community.


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## mossystate

fatgirlflyin said:


> A segregated community is not a strong community.



Well, then the community would have been Popeye after a morning in the spinach patch, but it wasn't. Yeah, that's why I said it went much deeper. There is a disconnect, and maybe it is all a matter of wishing and hoping, when some very basic ideals might never be able to coexist, at least not in the nirvana way some hope on. Hope springs eternal, until it can't. But, I do not think people shouldn't fight for whatever, but I hope they understand why others fought. That's the kicker. Oh well.


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## Webmaster

Basically, what I am seeing more and more is that we have a simple, inherent issue here. The issue is the basic conflict/contrast between the male and the female experience. 

That conflict/contrast is precisely why I opened Dimensions to both both genders, so that we could learn from one another and understand each other better. If we are to achieve anything, FAs need to be able to talk about their preferences and they need to learn more about fat people and their issues. And fat people need to discover their own sexuality and learn about FAs and their feelings and fantasies. I know it can be rough going, but I am firmly convinced that whitewashing and hiding and prettying things up won't solve anything.

A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground. As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.


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## LovelyLiz

Webmaster said:


> Basically, what I am seeing more and more is that we have a simple, inherent issue here. The issue is the basic conflict/contrast between the male and the female experience.
> 
> That conflict/contrast is precisely why I opened Dimensions to both both genders, so that we could learn from one another and understand each other better. If we are to achieve anything, FAs need to be able to talk about their preferences and they need to learn more about fat people and their issues. And fat people need to discover their own sexuality and learn about FAs and their feelings and fantasies. I know it can be rough going, but I am firmly convinced that whitewashing and hiding and prettying things up won't solve anything.
> 
> *A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground.* As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.



I was pretty much with you until the third paragraph. 

Even in this community I know of many, many, many introverted males, and many, many, many females who are down with sharing their fantasies (and they do). A gender dichotomy like that, in my view, is unhelpful - because it oversimplifies and excludes probably more people than it includes.

I am down with women and men learning from each other, like you talk about in the second paragraph. I'm really with you on that and happy that a space like this exists where we can do that, so thank you. But I also think that when this actually happens, we'll all realize that simplified dichotomies like the third paragraph are blatantly false.


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## mossystate

mcbeth said:


> .. and we'll all realize that simplified dichotomies like the third paragraph are blatantly false.



" A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground "

Conrad, sorry, this is not the first time you have used words like " high moral ground " as big negatives. And here it doesn't seem you are using the words as something you admire. Even saying " touchy-feely " is a bit of a dismissive way of dealing with ' the woman issue '. Men are swashbuckling mavericks, with a lust for life when they ' share '...women won't give it up. Neither is all that true/complete. I mean, if you were just referring to Dims, then there might be some truth to some of what you say, but that does not always mean that " this is how men are...this is how women are "...but more...this is what Dims brings out of people, in part. Interesting when things are sent through a different looking glass.


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## chicken legs

Webmaster said:


> A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground. As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.



I get what your saying.

I usually see the fighting between straight people who are clueless about the opposite sex, and get stuck in some sort of ideal of how someone should behave. 

I really don't mind being excluded..lol...well I hope I'm excluded..


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## Webmaster

mcbeth said:


> ... Even in this community I know of many, many, many introverted males, and many, many, many females who are down with sharing their fantasies (and they do). A gender dichotomy like that, in my view, is unhelpful - because it oversimplifies and excludes probably more people than it includes.....



I know, I know. Yet, I maintain that IN GENERAL that is the way it is, whether it's considered politically incorrect or not, or someone might read something into it. I could qualify every one of my statements to the n-th degree, but the bottom line is that I do think this inherent gender difference is the root of most issues, and one that we must address and work on.


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## superodalisque

chicken legs said:


> I get what your saying.
> 
> I usually see the fighting between straight people who are clueless about the opposite sex, and get stuck in some sort of ideal of how someone should behave.
> 
> I really don't mind being excluded..lol...well I hope I'm excluded..



i agree with that to a point. but i wouldn't blame the conflict totally on what you'd call "straight" people. i think someone can be narrow minded regarding fetish in more than one way. i feel there is also a conflict with people who view dims and the rest of the BBW community strictly like a swinging sex scene centered around fat bodies. other people do inhabit the community. most of them as elsewhere are i guess what you might call "straight". but i'm not sure the "straight" designation makes much sense when it comes to admiring and being sexually attracted to a fat person since a fat person is not a fetish object or necessarily outside of what the rest of society considers heterosexuality unless they _are_ in a homosexual or bisexual relationship. otherwise its a false construct because fat women and men are not a 3rd sex of some kind. they are men and they are women. the people who admire them admire men and women. otherwise a bucket of fat from the slaughterhouse might do just as well. they are people with various sexualities like anyone else. and therein lies the rub. i think there is a_lot_ of resentment about people trying to make a normal situation appear as if it is on the whole abnormal. i think a lot of people resent that. 

IMO fetish is sort of a side dish of sexuality for most people and a focus for some. i think maybe for those who have it as an intense focus it might tend to make them look at everything through fetish colored glasses. i really don't feel that most dims members find fetish unacceptable but i think maybe its the crass and 100% self interested way that its sometimes approached that people have a problem with. even when a person has a fetish it doesn't mean the other person's wellbeing is necessarily out of the realm of consideration. emotions are also not necesarily thrown outside of the door. we all have bodily functions. we all generally have some sort of sexual fantasy. all of that is fine. but the problem is when its allowed to stifle reality and retard the rest of life in such a way that it damages the rest of human relations. its a balance. life has a large sensual and sexual component but thats not all it is. "admiration" might not begin and end at the groin. sometimes the brain and the heart get involved even for guys . indeed the brain _is_ the most sensual organ hands down. if it weren't fetish wouldn't be an issue at all. i think narrowing it in a sort of brainless function that doesn't take into account a broad spectrum of emotional mental and intellectual ways of being and development of an almost brainless pursuance of the soley sexual is what gets people all riled up. it sometimes gets to a point where people who even partake of a fetish don't want to talk about it here in the open not only because of the"straight" element but also because of the element that seems to feel that fetish is loveless and without care and a conscience. thats not what they might be taking part in and they sometimes they might just resent the unwarranted over simplification. i don't blame them at all for not wanting to be characterized as a sexual tool or mechanism by someone else.


a lot of people just don't want to run in that company. fetish doesn't have to be a kink display based on what looks like some childhood psychological damage that results in behavior that you just can't help. it can also be a loving and sensual experience between two people for someone not afraid of intimacy. and maybe the person with the interested has totally incorporated his/her interest and doesn't feel that they are some mentally damaged oddball just because they happen to like something. not everyone feels to need to cultivate the strange weird outsider victim taboo position to find sexual satisfaction. there is nothing wrong with that if a person does but they shouldn't expect that reaction of everyone and try to make people feel as if thats the only way to approach things correctly. nobody has all of the answers for everybody--not even the everybodies who inhabit their own group.


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## superodalisque

Webmaster said:


> I know, I know. Yet, I maintain that IN GENERAL that is the way it is, whether it's considered politically incorrect or not, or someone might read something into it. I could qualify every one of my statements to the n-th degree, but the bottom line is that I do think this inherent gender difference is the root of most issues, and one that we must address and work on.



something to think about: 

maybe the gender difference is more on a communication level than a thinking feeling level. i'm not sure that guys always feel quite up to the challenge of debating with women necessarily. there has been a lot of studies about that and maybe it has some effect on the situation. i think probably over time its been less the case but overall women have a lot more practice being communicative on the whole. and also the type of talk necessary to slog through a lot of issues here require a kind of communication that guys, particularly in the past, haven't often been required to learn in our society-- for the most part. then you add into the mix the kind of guys who are here on the whole. it seems to me that we do have a lot of engineers and people in computer science etc..those aren't exactly areas that encourage guys to talk in touchy feely kinds of ways. so maybe its not always that they don't get us but maybe its the ability to show that they do get us--whether we do or don't think the same way.


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## superodalisque

fatgirlflyin said:


> I know, and I really really wish that I could agree that they are helpful. I was in favor of the idea of both boards at the beginning. I just see way too many people being told they can't participate because they don't fit into a specific category.
> 
> A segregated community is not a strong community.



yes and a whole lot of people basically told what to say and not to say when there is not generally a whole lot tolerance for their ideas no matter how polite the statements might be. they wouldn't bother me as much if there wasn't so much intellectual restraint about what could or could not be said or discussed. it just feels stifling.


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## chicken legs

As I said before....



chicken legs said:


> I see alot of bbw's who confuse the fa trait with the rest of the person. If the person is controlling and dominate then he will be a controlling dominate fa. If a person is selfish, then they are going to be a selfish fa. If a guy is caring, then he is going to be a caring fa. If he is a gentlemen, then he is going to be a gentlemenly fa. If a person has issues with being in a serious relationship then..well...you get the point.
> 
> 
> and you can subsitute FA/FFA with BBW/SSBBW or BHM/SSBHM.





superodalisque said:


> i agree with that to a point. but i wouldn't blame the conflict totally on what you'd call "straight" people. i think someone can be narrow minded regarding fetish in more than one way. i feel there is also a conflict with people who view dims and the rest of the BBW community strictly like a swinging sex scene centered around fat bodies. other people do inhabit the community. most of them as elsewhere are i guess what you might call "straight". but i'm not sure the "straight" designation makes much sense when it comes to admiring and being sexually attracted to a fat person since a fat person is not a fetish object or necessarily outside of what the rest of society considers heterosexuality unless they _are_ in a homosexual or bisexual relationship. otherwise its a false construct because fat women and men are not a 3rd sex of some kind. they are men and they are women. the people who admire them admire men and women. otherwise a bucket of fat from the slaughterhouse might do just as well. they are people with various sexualities like anyone else. and therein lies the rub. i think there is a_lot_ of resentment about people trying to make a normal situation appear as if it is on the whole abnormal. i think a lot of people resent that.
> 
> IMO fetish is sort of a side dish of sexuality for most people and a focus for some. i think maybe for those who have it as an intense focus it might tend to make them look at everything through fetish colored glasses. i really don't feel that most dims members find fetish unacceptable but i think maybe its the crass and 100% self interested way that its sometimes approached that people have a problem with. even when a person has a fetish it doesn't mean the other person's wellbeing is necessarily out of the realm of consideration. emotions are also not necesarily thrown outside of the door. we all have bodily functions. we all generally have some sort of sexual fantasy. all of that is fine. but the problem is when its allowed to stifle reality and retard the rest of life in such a way that it damages the rest of human relations. its a balance. life has a large sensual and sexual component but thats not all it is. "admiration" might not begin and end at the groin. sometimes the brain and the heart get involved even for guys . indeed the brain _is_ the most sensual organ hands down. if it weren't fetish wouldn't be an issue at all. i think narrowing it in a sort of brainless function that doesn't take into account a broad spectrum of emotional mental and intellectual ways of being and development of an almost brainless pursuance of the soley sexual is what gets people all riled up. it sometimes gets to a point where people who even partake of a fetish don't want to talk about it here in the open not only because of the"straight" element but also because of the element that seems to feel that fetish is loveless and without care and a conscience. thats not what they might be taking part in and they sometimes they might just resent the unwarranted over simplification. i don't blame them at all for not wanting to be characterized as a sexual tool or mechanism by someone else.
> 
> 
> a lot of people just don't want to run in that company. fetish doesn't have to be a kink display based on what looks like some childhood psychological damage that results in behavior that you just can't help. it can also be a loving and sensual experience between two people for someone not afraid of intimacy. and maybe the person with the interested has totally incorporated his/her interest and doesn't feel that they are some mentally damaged oddball just because they happen to like something. not everyone feels to need to cultivate the strange weird outsider victim taboo position to find sexual satisfaction. there is nothing wrong with that if a person does but they shouldn't expect that reaction of everyone and try to make people feel as if thats the only way to approach things correctly. nobody has all of the answers for everybody--not even the everybodies who inhabit their own group.




I think people with a chip on their shoulder sometimes leave crumbs when posting about how they don't like how someone views life, or nitpick on how someone chooses to express their views.


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## joswitch

> fetish ... can also be a loving and sensual experience between two people for someone not afraid of intimacy. and maybe the person with the interested has totally incorporated his/her interest and doesn't feel that they are some mentally damaged oddball just because they happen to like something..



Yes! Thank you! This ^ with bells on!


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## chicken legs

I equate Dims with the movie Spirited Away...especially the creature known as "No-Face" and that goes the "those that admire" and the "admired".


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## escapist

With whatever is going on, I just want to see the nitpicking over every minor detail, word, and sentiment in every freaking post finally put to an end. At the very least why can't people put this stuff in PM? These pestering post are like train-wrecks waiting to happen. Once the first car derails it gets real ugly. I'm sure there are legitimate complaints on some of these but it gets real ugly real fast when anybody but the Mod starts publicly complaining.

Example: if I drone on about a topic you don't like, is it really necessary to blow up and harp on me about how you don't like my subject topics on the forum? You can't just PM me about that stuff? Most the time these things read like rallying cry's to apply social pressure from the community. They make others feel unwelcome to share there thoughts or opinions. Again let me illustrate: Lets pretend I don't think Murder's or Drug dealers should serve jail time and use up resources. So every chance I see a thread or a post that is pertainable to the subject I post. Often resulting in nasty comments just because they don't like my view or opinion or even a just word I used in saying it.

Its things like the constant badgering over silly things thats part of the breeding ground feeding these festering bouts of ugliness. I and many others would like to see it finally stop. None of us are perfect, we all say stupid things. This board has a way of brining out a lot of emotion it doesn't help when we just add to it our emotional reactiveness rather than addressing the real issues quietly and calmly. Often when a child is acting up and acting out a public scorning is rarely a helpful remedy to the situation. I'm not sure why this method of social pressure and blatant manipulation is what I so commonly see applied to post in threads.

Most of us are not skilled or professional writers. I'm rather certain most of what we are after is to express "The Jist" of our thoughts. If people could focus on what others are trying to say, not the way they said it; I imagine we could put an end to 1/2 the nastiness encompassing so much of the bitterness and venomously reactionary posts.

- Just my 2.... well maybe 3 or 4 cents.


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## TraciJo67

escapist said:


> Most of us are not skilled or professional writers. I'm rather certain most of what we are after is to express "The Jist" of our thoughts. If people could focus on what others are trying to say, not the way they said it; I imagine we could put an end to 1/2 the nastiness encompassing so much of the bitterness and venomously reactionary posts.
> 
> - Just my 2.... well maybe 3 or 4 cents.


 
It has been argued, somewhat persuasively, that people who don't like feeling objectified shouldn't belong to a SIG dedicated to fat admirers and to fat men/women. By the same token, how someone expresses him/herself within this medium counts. It really does. Speaking for myself only, I don't have a problem with a misspelled word, misplaced syntax, and poor grammar if what is being expressed is cohesive and compelling enough to overlook it. But barring that, I have to admit that when I am reading something, I expect the writer to understand that if I'm to take him/her seriously ... he/she must make an effort at being understood. I'm not going to take that role of discerning meaning upon myself; frankly, I think that is expecting too much. And yes, I stumble at the point when 'there' is being used for 'their' or 'they're' (for example). If we were speaking to each other, rather than relying on a medium in which the written word carries so much weight, syntax and grammar wouldn't matter. In fact, non-verbal expressions and cues would likely guide the conversation at least as much (if not more than) what is actually being said. 

I seldom see people being viciously attacked for poor spelling and grammar. If/when that happens, it is probably because the person responding has another issue with the writer. I'm not saying that makes it OK, just that there is probably another motive. And while I don't believe that we should openly attack someone for poor writing skills, I also believe that the writer should understand that he/she is not going to be taken seriously if an effort isn't made at BEING understood.


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## butch

Why does 'not-straight' equal fetish and kink, super-O? As I can attest after watching all the gays and lesbians getting married in my city this week, they're just as vanilla as the stereotypical straight couples.

If I misread you, fine, but please clarify if you're making a claim that homosexuality is inherently kinky and/or fetishistic.


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## escapist

TraciJo67 said:


> It has been argued, somewhat persuasively, that people who don't like feeling objectified shouldn't belong to a SIG dedicated to fat admirers and to fat men/women. By the same token, how someone expresses him/herself within this medium counts. It really does. Speaking for myself only, I don't have a problem with a misspelled word, misplaced syntax, and poor grammar if what is being expressed is cohesive and compelling enough to overlook it. But barring that, I have to admit that when I am reading something, I expect the writer to understand that if I'm to take him/her seriously ... he/she must make an effort at being understood. I'm not going to take that role of discerning meaning upon myself; frankly, I think that is expecting too much. And yes, I stumble at the point when 'there' is being used for 'their' or 'they're' (for example). If we were speaking to each other, rather than relying on a medium in which the written word carries so much weight, syntax and grammar wouldn't matter. In fact, non-verbal expressions and cues would likely guide the conversation at least as much (if not more than) what is actually being said.
> 
> I seldom see people being viciously attacked for poor spelling and grammar. If/when that happens, it is probably because the person responding has another issue with the writer. I'm not saying that makes it OK, just that there is probably another motive. And while I don't believe that we should openly attack someone for poor writing skills, I also believe that the writer should understand that he/she is not going to be taken seriously if an effort isn't made at BEING understood.



I myself have been made fun of numerous times for it. I use an auto-spell-checking browser but its far from perfect. Without going into to much detail about it I have clinical issues that cause me problems with certain skills such as writing, its not something I normally talk about. I am however aware that most of my errors stem from that (hence the use of a spell check). I don't know if it was the right choice or the wrong choice but early on in the educational years of my youth it was decided by the school staff to overlook my errors and just give me a "Franklin Speller".

I try to get my post proof-read as often as I can for spelling, grammar, and plain old understanding. I wasn't thinking of you in particular if thats what your thinking. If you've done it to me, I hardly noticed because its come up more than a few times. Also, there are people who are from other countries. Who are doing their best to communicate with us as a global community. A certain insensitivity for the culture gap exist as well. Hell, not even in USA are we truly 1 culture. I'm learning that now more than ever since my girlfriend is black and I'm as white as they come. I had never experience being hated just cause I'm white before . Now white and Ginormous? Its like a Double whammy. At least this is a place some of that can be mused upon.

_I'm really just trying to address, and perhaps expound, on what I've seen brought up by Chicken Legs and Conrad_. We all seem to be taking issue with so many things. Without accepting our varied backgrounds of, size, sex, race, culture, dominance, personality type, and so on and so forth. Picking at each other in nonconstructive ways. For what reason? Ego? I can't truly say. I just know that it degrades the harmony of a place love by so many; for one reason or the other. Clearly this site means different things to different people. We can however agree, its a place we just love.

All I really know is, to truly get out of the box of self-deception, we have too want to stop trying too see it and have it "our" way. We need to accept that others are entitled to outrageous views and opinions. Even if they conflict with our own, values, thoughts, or ideas about the universe. As long as they are not in conflict with the posting rules there shouldn't be an issue. If it conflicts with the board rules then its for the Mods to deal with.

The boards are becoming like a "City of Hero's". Where everybody is a vigilantly fighting for what they believe is right. In whatever manner they deem acceptable. Without regard to how deplorable that method may be. Its not our job to protect the boards (or our ego's or bruised sensitive nature) beyond notifying a Moderator of an offensive post. Or, perhaps using a the PM function. I'm sorry, but an awful lot of "polite, helpful suggestions" are starting to taste like the bitterness of an old wound ready to bust open, and spew its infested goo on all of us. Perhaps its just a figment of my imagination, and that of others, but I swear there are times when you can feel that someone isn't being polite at all. Even when polite is all they say. Its like talking to the a beggar on the street who has a dagger ready to stab you if you don't give him some spare change.

So in the end TraciJo67, I am in agreement with you. Often these remarks are made by people who just want to inject their venomous spite because they are uncomfortable letting others feel and think however they will. They have a need to publicly bring their feelings selfishly to center stage so they can make fun of, poke and prod, to see if they can get someone to bite back. I imagine if they truly loved the boards they wouldn't want this kind of negativity on it. It is infectious. It spreads like a disease of the flesh. Leaving a putrid trail of rot and decay for others to muck around in until they too become infected and spread its putrescence.

I think my mamma said it best. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". I think the deeper wisdom is: "If you can't mean anything nice, don't even look the other persons way. Let alone open your mouth". Every post on this board supports the function of notifying a Moderator, or sending a PM. Conrad has said what this site is for. The rules have been clearly posted and marked. I think we can all just follow them, and use "the golden rule".


----------



## superodalisque

butch said:


> Why does 'not-straight' equal fetish and kink, super-O? As I can attest after watching all the gays and lesbians getting married in my city this week, they're just as vanilla as the stereotypical straight couples.
> 
> If I misread you, fine, but please clarify if you're making a claim that homosexuality is inherently kinky and/or fetishistic.



yes you misread me. i am convoluted--sorry. i don't think fetish should be referred to in terms of straight or not. being gay or lesbian is NOT a kink. being with a same sex partner is NOT a fetish IMO, just as being with a fat partner is NOT a fetish IMO. when people refer to straight i think they should keep it in the realm of homosexual, heterosexual etc... for that reason. straight refers to more than how people have sex but the structure of their relationships. fetishes cross all of the boundaries and can apply to any person no matter what group to they belong to.

and yes, i do think gays and lesbians are and can be just as vanilla as anyone else. i support gay marriage for the very reason you stated. i love the values of love and comitment between people. i really don't care what sex they are. the world needs more people who show openly that they love and care for each other. the law should recognize that relationship and pay it the respect that it deserves in a practical way. on top of that the fact that gays and lesbians fight so hard to have that right might just wake up homosexual people to the fact that maybe they've been taking something valuable for granted and maybe they need to go back and revisit what all of this is about. i think when something is easy its typical for people to start approaching it in a shallow way that devalues and and damages it. its wonderful seeing people who really want to show the world in a concrete way that they are together and plan on loving each other for as long as they can.


----------



## Angel

Webmaster said:


> Basically, what I am seeing more and more is that we have a simple, inherent issue here. The issue is the basic conflict/contrast between the male and the female experience.
> 
> That conflict/contrast is precisely why I opened Dimensions to both both genders, so that we could learn from one another and understand each other better. If we are to achieve anything, FAs need to be able to talk about their preferences and they need to learn more about fat people and their issues. And fat people need to discover their own sexuality and learn about FAs and their feelings and fantasies. I know it can be rough going, but I am firmly convinced that whitewashing and hiding and prettying things up won't solve anything.
> 
> A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground. As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.



Before a child is even born parents (and sometimes their family and friends) begin to mold what the child is expected to be or become. It begins with the nursery and layette. Design. Colors. A crib can be no flair, architecturally neutral, and finished in one of the various natural wood tones. Then there are those that are ultra feminine, embellished with floral boughs and draping ribbons and bows, and finished in the shiniest pristine white. Perfect for a little princess. Think of the designing and planning that go into a nursery. The choices that parents make. The designs. The themes. Then the clothing. Basic blues and greens for boys. Frilly and lacy pinks and yellows and lavenders for girls. Fast forward to the toddler years. Again, look at the clothing designs. Look at what is read to children. The bedtime fairy tales. Later the exciting superhero adventures or television and movie inspired "dramas". Whether we realize it or not, when we buy into the commercialism the male and female roles have been designed or assigned. Then children are taught what is acceptable and permissable or not by parents, family, schools, and peers. Males are taught that it's okay to play tough, to compete, but to not show their emotions. Girls are expected to act like little ladies; be courteous; taught to be the nurturers and encouraged to show their emotions. No matter how advanced we are as a culture or how advanced technologically, boys are still taught to be boys and girls taught to be girls. Are any of us at fault for the way we have been raised? No. 

The divide, the male way of thinking vs. the female way of thinking is always going to exist. The differences in our way of thinking is part human nature; part learned. Neither way of thinking is necessarily wrong. I think that most adults realize that males and females think differently and respond accordingly. 

I think the issues here at Dimensions have more to do with three things:
1.) how some things are expressed, especially when it comes to some males' fantasies that involve anything detrimental to the female's health, happiness, and well being
2.) females wanting to be recognized and thought of as more than only having a fat body to be admired
3.) respect

It could be argued that the nature of any forum is just to have your say and to hell with what anyone else thinks or believes. That is the attitude that some purvey here. I see so many sides trying to be heard and understood, yet they still feel like no one has listened or even wants to understand. After so many times of attempting to be heard, and not being heard, eventually people stop trying, and bitterness and resentment begin to set in. Then sarcasm or hostility are seen, or people give up and leave.

Dimensions may have been created for fat admirers, but when fat admirers lose sight of the human or emotional aspect of those they claim to admire, and negate the person to just being about the fat, they are going to get a reaction. This is what I don't think that fat admirers understand. They don't understand why so many females are upset and trying to be heard. When females try to explain why they are upset the fat admirers see it as an attack on their (the FA's) FA-ism, when it's not.

Maybe what we need is a little education; some teaching; some encouraging to grow up, to listen, to hear, to be more understanding, and to show more respect. Educating and teaching by example and by sharing life experiences. With the FA forum, we have the opportunity to mold this generation of FAs and future generations. By mold I don't mean that we make them drones, but rather to give them the knowledge that we have to offer so that they do feel confident to live their lives as an FA beyond their bedrooms and beyond their fantasies. Women encourage other women who are trying to find their way to accepting themselves. Why can't we do the same with FAs? I'm not saying make excuses or coddle, but encourage someone to be all that they can be, and to not be ashamed of who or what they are. 

Somehow Dimensions needs to incorporate and facilitate learning from each other so that the huge division lessens. Face it, society and the general population won't do it for us. It has to be accomplished from within. We only have each other, fat admirers and admirees. If Dimensions and this community can't help build the confidence of these young FAs, it will be yet another generation of male FAs who end up partnering with smaller women. Then ten or twenty years from now there will be the same 'my wife gained but wants to lose and she can't understand why I want her to stay fat' posts.  

Seriously, what a better legacy than for Dimensions to finally help young FAs feel confident enough to individually live their life as an unashamed FA.


----------



## James

Could those of you who feel stifled and segmented elaborate on what you mean?

The main board and lounge (along with all the old boards that preceded the BBW forum and the FA/FFA forum) are all still there. Everything that used to be able to be discussed can still be discussed.


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## Weirdo890

I don't know if Dims has gotten any worse or better, but it has grown diverse, like Sue said. Perhaps there are not enough people who watch what they say before they speak. I wouldn't know. I haven't been here as long as some others.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

Webmaster said:


> Basically, what I am seeing more and more is that we have a simple, inherent issue here. The issue is the basic conflict/contrast between the male and the female experience.
> 
> That conflict/contrast is precisely why I opened Dimensions to both both genders, so that we could learn from one another and understand each other better. If we are to achieve anything, FAs need to be able to talk about their preferences and they need to learn more about fat people and their issues. And fat people need to discover their own sexuality and learn about FAs and their feelings and fantasies. I know it can be rough going, but I am firmly convinced that whitewashing and hiding and prettying things up won't solve anything.
> 
> A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground. As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.





mcbeth said:


> I was pretty much with you until the third paragraph.
> 
> Even in this community I know of many, many, many introverted males, and many, many, many females who are down with sharing their fantasies (and they do). A gender dichotomy like that, in my view, is unhelpful - because it oversimplifies and excludes probably more people than it includes.
> 
> I am down with women and men learning from each other, like you talk about in the second paragraph. I'm really with you on that and happy that a space like this exists where we can do that, so thank you. But I also think that when this actually happens, we'll all realize that simplified dichotomies like the third paragraph are blatantly false.




Thank you Beth.....


What I mainly came to say though is.... *ahem*

I don't share my fantasies? Hells Bells....I make them up and post them in the library. What about other women authors in the Dims library? What about the "pin up style" paysite ladies? Aren't these all women sharing or even creating fantasies?


----------



## Weirdo890

Webmaster said:


> Basically, what I am seeing more and more is that we have a simple, inherent issue here. The issue is the basic conflict/contrast between the male and the female experience.
> 
> That conflict/contrast is precisely why I opened Dimensions to both both genders, so that we could learn from one another and understand each other better. If we are to achieve anything, FAs need to be able to talk about their preferences and they need to learn more about fat people and their issues. And fat people need to discover their own sexuality and learn about FAs and their feelings and fantasies. I know it can be rough going, but I am firmly convinced that whitewashing and hiding and prettying things up won't solve anything.
> 
> A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground. As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.



Wow, you are so wise. There is a lot you can teach me. Please show me the path to enlightenment. :bow:


----------



## musicman

Angel said:


> Somehow Dimensions needs to incorporate and facilitate learning from each other so that the huge division lessens. Face it, society and the general population won't do it for us. It has to be accomplished from within. We only have each other, fat admirers and admirees.




Very well said! This is really the big picture, as I see it. There will always be point-of-view disagreements between men and women, but FAs and fat women have one very important thing in common: neither group is viewed favorably by the society in which we live. If our situations are to be improved, we must do it ourselves. As Angel said, no one else will do it.

And more importantly, the two groups are irretrievably intertwined. Either both succeed or both fail. The success of one group helps the other, and ditto for failure. FAs benefit if fat women are respected by society and feel better about themselves. Fat women benefit if more FAs come out of the closet (and behave like gentlemen, of course). By the same token, if either group feels miserable and disaffected, it hurts members of the other group as well. [For FFAs and BHMs, please reverse the genders in what I've said. I'm not trying to leave you out.]

It is truly in each group's interest to have the other succeed. We need to spend more time looking for ways to help each other. We are NOT each other's enemies. If we want someone to fight, we should direct our anger at our bigoted fat-phobic society, our common enemy.




Angel said:


> If Dimensions and this community can't help build the confidence of these young FAs, it will be yet another generation of male FAs who end up partnering with smaller women. Then ten or twenty years from now there will be the same 'my wife gained but wants to lose and she can't understand why I want her to stay fat' posts.
> 
> Seriously, what a better legacy than for Dimensions to finally help young FAs feel confident enough to individually live their life as an unashamed FA.



Exactly right!


----------



## escapist

Angel said:


> Before a child is even born parents (and sometimes their family and friends) begin to mold what the child is expected to be or become. It begins with the nursery and layette. Design. Colors. A crib can be no flair, architecturally neutral, and finished in one of the various natural wood tones. Then there are those that are ultra feminine, embellished with floral boughs and draping ribbons and bows, and finished in the shiniest pristine white. Perfect for a little princess. Think of the designing and planning that go into a nursery. The choices that parents make. The designs. The themes. Then the clothing. Basic blues and greens for boys. Frilly and lacy pinks and yellows and lavenders for girls. Fast forward to the toddler years. Again, look at the clothing designs. Look at what is read to children. The bedtime fairy tales. Later the exciting superhero adventures or television and movie inspired "dramas". Whether we realize it or not, when we buy into the commercialism the male and female roles have been designed or assigned. Then children are taught what is acceptable and permissable or not by parents, family, schools, and peers. Males are taught that it's okay to play tough, to compete, but to not show their emotions. Girls are expected to act like little ladies; be courteous; taught to be the nurturers and encouraged to show their emotions. No matter how advanced we are as a culture or how advanced technologically, boys are still taught to be boys and girls taught to be girls. Are any of us at fault for the way we have been raised? No.
> 
> The divide, the male way of thinking vs. the female way of thinking is always going to exist. The differences in our way of thinking is part human nature; part learned. Neither way of thinking is necessarily wrong. I think that most adults realize that males and females think differently and respond accordingly.
> 
> I think the issues here at Dimensions have more to do with three things:
> 1.) how some things are expressed, especially when it comes to some males' fantasies that involve anything detrimental to the female's health, happiness, and well being
> 2.) females wanting to be recognized and thought of as more than only having a fat body to be admired
> 3.) respect
> 
> It could be argued that the nature of any forum is just to have your say and to hell with what anyone else thinks or believes. That is the attitude that some purvey here. I see so many sides trying to be heard and understood, yet they still feel like no one has listened or even wants to understand. After so many times of attempting to be heard, and not being heard, eventually people stop trying, and bitterness and resentment begin to set in. Then sarcasm or hostility are seen, or people give up and leave.
> 
> Dimensions may have been created for fat admirers, but when fat admirers lose sight of the human or emotional aspect of those they claim to admire, and negate the person to just being about the fat, they are going to get a reaction. This is what I don't think that fat admirers understand. They don't understand why so many females are upset and trying to be heard. When females try to explain why they are upset the fat admirers see it as an attack on their (the FA's) FA-ism, when it's not.
> 
> Maybe what we need is a little education; some teaching; some encouraging to grow up, to listen, to hear, to be more understanding, and to show more respect. Educating and teaching by example and by sharing life experiences. With the FA forum, we have the opportunity to mold this generation of FAs and future generations. By mold I don't mean that we make them drones, but rather to give them the knowledge that we have to offer so that they do feel confident to live their lives as an FA beyond their bedrooms and beyond their fantasies. Women encourage other women who are trying to find their way to accepting themselves. Why can't we do the same with FAs? I'm not saying make excuses or coddle, but encourage someone to be all that they can be, and to not be ashamed of who or what they are.
> 
> Somehow Dimensions needs to incorporate and facilitate learning from each other so that the huge division lessens. Face it, society and the general population won't do it for us. It has to be accomplished from within. We only have each other, fat admirers and admirees. If Dimensions and this community can't help build the confidence of these young FAs, it will be yet another generation of male FAs who end up partnering with smaller women. Then ten or twenty years from now there will be the same 'my wife gained but wants to lose and she can't understand why I want her to stay fat' posts.
> 
> Seriously, what a better legacy than for Dimensions to finally help young FAs feel confident enough to individually live their life as an unashamed FA.



Your totally forgetting about the FFA's. I live with one I've seen a lot of the same. I think its ridiculous to say she doesn't care for the health of others. She however is helpless to the fact that the size turns her on. (F)FA's aren't always some kind of parasite that want to get off no matter what damage they cause to the objects of their desire. I myself am an FA when one of my partners started reaching a totally unhealthy level I begged her to turn it around. I admit I don't feel a need to have my partners get supper skinny, but if thats what they want fine...I am also slightly bi-sizual. Sexy tends to be sexy no matter what size package it comes in.

FA's come in all shapes, sizes, genders, and sexual attraction preferences. Our backgrounds are many and varied. Some of us care more. Some of us care less. Some of us are in the open. Some of us are in the closet. Some of us are slightly turned on by fat. Some of us are uncontrollably turned on by it. I think its hard to put any of us who participate on this forum in a box (and not just cause the box is to big, or too small ). To do so is somewhat ignorant.

I think the sharing that is done here without prejudice is a wonderful thing. Some of the FA's are clueless what life with a big person is really like. Likewise some of us Bigger folk have no clue what it can be like to live with an FA. I myself was totally in shock to truly see how supper attracted someone could be to guy my size. Family, friends, and media, always taught me that being over 400 lbs just wasn't attractive. Talk about a paradigm shift.


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## chicken legs

Its really hard to teach sensitivity towards other living beings. I have pets that have lived past the normal life expectancy. On the other hand, pets have died while my sister was just pet-sitting. Thats why I like to gauge a person's level of empathy towards other living things before I get serious with them.

If a FA/FFA, BBW/BHM expresses a fantasy you don't agree with, then you'll know that might not be someone you would want to have a relationship with.


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## Angel

escapist said:


> Your totally forgetting about the FFA's. I live with one I've seen a lot of the same. I think its ridiculous to say she doesn't care for the health of others. She however is helpless to the fact that the size turns her on. (F)FA's aren't always some kind of parasite that want to get off no matter what damage they cause to the objects of their desire. I myself am an FA when one of my partners started reaching a totally unhealthy level I begged her to turn it around. I admit I don't feel a need to have my partners get supper skinny, but if thats what they want fine...I am also slightly bi-sizual. Sexy tends to be sexy no matter what size package it comes in.
> 
> FA's come in all shapes, sizes, genders, and sexual attraction preferences. Our backgrounds are many and varied. Some of us care more. Some of us care less. Some of us are in the open. Some of us are in the closet. Some of us are slightly turned on by fat. Some of us are uncontrollably turned on by it. I think its hard to put any of us who participate on this forum in a box (and not just cause the box is to big, or too small ). To do so is somewhat ignorant.
> 
> I think the sharing that is done here without prejudice is a wonderful thing. Some of the FA's are clueless what life with a big person is really like. Likewise some of us Bigger folk have no clue what it can be like to live with an FA. I myself was totally in shock to truly see how supper attracted someone could be to guy my size. Family, friends, and media, always taught me that being over 400 lbs just wasn't attractive. Talk about a paradigm shift.



I didn't forget about FFA. FFA are FA (fat admirers). I didn't specifically say (type) FFA because I don't see the FFA posting extreme fantasies such as those that some FA have posted in the past. Did I say (or post) that your GF or any FFA doesn't care about the health of others? No. I haven't seen FFA relate such. I and others _have_ seen posts in the past where a male FA expresses a desire or a fantasy to fatten a female to the point that it is detrimental to her health, well being, and life itself. I'm not even talking about the expressed fantasies or desires to see a female gain 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 pounds. I was talking about those that specifically involved a desire to intentionally harm or diminish the health or well being of a female, or those where the end result of the desire or fantasy is the female laying helpless and filthy in her own bodily fluids or even worse when the eroticism focuses on the fattening someone to her death. I know that that being brought up is going to make some very uncomfortable or even angry, but it needs to be understood that that was the beginning of the current dismay (that's putting it lightly) with Dimensions and with what Dimensions stands for. I think it is also important to state that that most FAs and even most feeders don't desire or intend for a female (or male gainer) to suffer any negative health issues. I wasn't lumping all FA into the extreme. 

Also when I stated the three things I have been seeing, it was about what I have seen others trying to say and trying to get others to _hear_. 


I don't believe that the BHM and SSBHM here get treated the way that BBW and SSBBW do. I don't see it. Sure there are a couple FFA who openly admit to being fetishists, but they also profess to show concern and have said that they wouldn't engage in anything that the male didn't desire or want. 

I don't know why, or where it begins, but with some male FA and feeders there is a HUGE disconnect - that disconnect being that it (their focus) is ALL about the fat or the fat and the gaining and that the individual, the female, and her wants, needs, emotions, and even her health doesn't matter as long as the male FA is getting his fat fix or his jollies. (In case anyone thinks this, I am not talking about female feedees who are into gaining or females who are into the eroticism of their own fat and who desire or invite fat talk.) I know that not all FA and feeders are like this, but there are enough of them that the females (and some males) here at Dimensions have taken notice and have been trying to get it across that we deserve to be treated as whole and complete individuals who are so much more than just a composition of fat body parts. 

If you are raising a son, hopefully you teach him to respect women. Hopefully you raise him in a way so that when he gets older he will view women and treat women as more than "a piece of ass". Why should we have any less expectations for the men here?


----------



## chicken legs

Angel said:


> I and others _have_ seen posts in the past where a male FA expresses a desire or a fantasy to fatten a female to the point that it is detrimental to her health, well being, and life itself. I'm not even talking about the expressed fantasies or desires to see a female gain 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 pounds. I was talking about those that specifically involved a desire to intentionally harm or diminish the health or well being of a female, or those where the end result of the desire or fantasy is the female laying helpless and filthy in her own bodily fluids or even worse when the eroticism focuses on the fattening someone to her death. I know that that being brought up is going to make some very uncomfortable or even angry, but it needs to be understood that that was the beginning of the current dismay (that's putting it lightly) with Dimensions and with what Dimensions stands for.Also when I stated the three things I have been seeing, it was about what I have seen others trying to say and trying to get others to _hear_.
> 
> 
> I don't believe that the BHM and SSBHM here get treated the way that BBW and SSBBW do. I don't see it.



I don't like the stories that show the female (or male) crushing the life out of those around them to get their rocks off or to have an orgasm, bullying their family and friends into being slaves and servants. However, not only are there stories of that, but that stuff happens IRL. I just wonder how some of you can handle those stories but make a fuss about the ones you mentioned above?

The thing is, I have seen many a person abuse their physical advantage IRL. I have yet to see someone get fed to death IRL without their consent.


Also, I feel that the BHM/SSBHM do get treated the same. Its just they handle it differently. Plus, the smaller FFA's are even less verbal than our FA counterparts, and the bigger FFA's don't get much of a response. Plus, alot of the communication goes underground from what I've seen.


----------



## escapist

Angel said:


> I didn't forget about FFA. FFA are FA (fat admirers). I didn't specifically say (type) FFA because I don't see the FFA posting extreme fantasies such as those that some FA have posted in the past. Did I say (or post) that your GF or any FFA doesn't care about the health of others? No. I haven't seen FFA relate such. I and others _have_ seen posts in the past where a male FA expresses a desire or a fantasy to fatten a female to the point that it is detrimental to her health, well being, and life itself. I'm not even talking about the expressed fantasies or desires to see a female gain 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 pounds. I was talking about those that specifically involved a desire to intentionally harm or diminish the health or well being of a female, or those where the end result of the desire or fantasy is the female laying helpless and filthy in her own bodily fluids or even worse when the eroticism focuses on the fattening someone to her death. I know that that being brought up is going to make some very uncomfortable or even angry, but it needs to be understood that that was the beginning of the current dismay (that's putting it lightly) with Dimensions and with what Dimensions stands for. I think it is also important to state that that most FAs and even most feeders don't desire or intend for a female (or male gainer) to suffer any negative health issues. I wasn't lumping all FA into the extreme.
> 
> Also when I stated the three things I have been seeing, it was about what I have seen others trying to say and trying to get others to _hear_.
> 
> 
> I don't believe that the BHM and SSBHM here get treated the way that BBW and SSBBW do. I don't see it. Sure there are a couple FFA who openly admit to being fetishists, but they also profess to show concern and have said that they wouldn't engage in anything that the male didn't desire or want.
> 
> I don't know why, or where it begins, but with some male FA and feeders there is a HUGE disconnect - that disconnect being that it (their focus) is ALL about the fat or the fat and the gaining and that the individual, the female, and her wants, needs, emotions, and even her health doesn't matter as long as the male FA is getting his fat fix or his jollies. (In case anyone thinks this, I am not talking about female feedees who are into gaining or females who are into the eroticism of their own fat and who desire or invite fat talk.) I know that not all FA and feeders are like this, but there are enough of them that the females (and some males) here at Dimensions have taken notice and have been trying to get it across that we deserve to be treated as whole and complete individuals who are so much more than just a composition of fat body parts.
> 
> If you are raising a son, hopefully you teach him to respect women. Hopefully you raise him in a way so that when he gets older he will view women and treat women as more than "a piece of ass". Why should we have any less expectations for the men here?



I have two boy's actually, however their mother tends to be the one who treats the opposite sex as nothing more than a piece of ass. That is a topic for another discussion. One I do not wish to go into on an online public forum. The only point that is relevant here is most learning does come from learning by example. Its not what we say that truly influences others. Its what we do ourselves.

As for FFA's having wishes to cause harm, well I have known a few that I met her on this board. I was quite shocked that for them I wasn't immobile enough to even be considered attractive to them. As of late there has been much talk of Manuel Uribe. No they do not go on about how they want to make him miserable or uncomfortable, but there has to be some sort of acceptance and disregard for his care since they aren't going "Gee I hope he looses more weight ASAP". I know that my own girlfriend has deep fantasy's about seeing me at 800 lbs. I've never once though ill of her. I don't think she can help the fact that she often sits in wonder and amazement at the size of my body. She might present me with foods of my desire but I'm the one who chooses to eat it. I've never known anybody who has actually been force fed to death, therefor I can only assume they are expressing fantasy. Otherwise we are really just talking about people who are sociopaths. You don't have to be an outright killer to be devoid of empathy.

So either out of sociopathic compulsion or the simple musings of fantasy I doubt there is a wanton strain of maniacal deviousness to harm others. Just simply a lack of thoughtfulness about being overly concerned with what turns them on. Either way I don't see a reason in fussing about it. I could really care less what others conjure up in the playful porn palace of their sick little minds. Its not like I have any will, ability, or desire to "make them" see things my way. For those who are lacking the ability to empathize with others they need help beyond me.

As for the stories in the library, if I don't like them I don't read them. Its not like I go around starting a book baning club in front of my public library to protest the books I don't like. I simply respect that others see things different than I do.

Lastly, I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was merely pointing out there is more at work here than just what is being addressed. The persons involved are dynamic and varied. Everyone who reads this forum is effected in one way or an other by the behaviors, actions, and intentions of those posting. I simply want to see this forum be the best place it can be. The only way I can see to do this is tolerance, acceptance, and adherence to the rules and guidelines of posting. Caring for ones personal conduct and excellence must always come before others will choose to learn from our example and adopt such values for themselves.


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## wrench13

Wow, a good thing like old posters like domi-feeder and atomic vomit aren't around any more - the way Dimesions is now, they would be lit up like 100 lb of fertilizer. Don't know who they are? Children, you aint seen nothing.


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## KHayes666

chicken legs said:


> I don't like the stories that show the female (or male) crushing the life out of those around them to get their rocks off or to have an orgasm, bullying their family and friends into being slaves and servants. However, not only are there stories of that, but that stuff happens IRL. I just wonder how some of you can handle those stories but make a fuss about the ones you mentioned above?
> 
> The thing is, I have seen many a person abuse their physical advantage IRL. I have yet to see someone get fed to death IRL without their consent.
> 
> 
> Also, I feel that the BHM/SSBHM do get treated the same. Its just they handle it differently. Plus, the smaller FFA's are even less verbal than our FA counterparts, and the bigger FFA's don't get much of a response. Plus, alot of the communication goes underground from what I've seen.



A lot of the sci-fi type using a ray gun to make someone 3,000 pounds (forgot the story title) kind of stories aren't my cup of tea, but I have the philosophy of if you don't like it then just don't look at it. A lot of stories come under fire because of abnormal situations and I have to wonder why exactly were certain people complaining about it even reading it in the first place.

There are some logical complains though. If a story is about a 40 year old man feeding a teen-aged girl to immobility not only should it be taken down, whoever wrote it should be hog tied and forced to watch Hello Larry re-runs. However most other complaints are borderline preposterous.

Like when there are stories with flashbacks in them: "When he/she was a child they would stuff pillows in their shirts" and that's when the complaints become invalid. Having a simple flashback to something a lot of people actually did growing up gives the character a personality. Again, if you don't like reading about it...DON'T READ IT.


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## escapist

KHayes666 said:


> *A lot of the sci-fi type using a ray gun to make someone 3,000 pounds (forgot the story title) kind of stories *aren't my cup of tea, but I have the philosophy of if you don't like it then just don't look at it. A lot of stories come under fire because of abnormal situations and I have to wonder why exactly were certain people complaining about it even reading it in the first place.
> 
> There are some logical complains though. If a story is about a 40 year old man feeding a teen-aged girl to immobility not only should it be taken down, whoever wrote it should be hog tied and forced to watch Hello Larry re-runs. However most other complaints are borderline preposterous.
> 
> Like when there are stories with flashbacks in them: "When he/she was a child they would stuff pillows in their shirts" and that's when the complaints become invalid. Having a simple flashback to something a lot of people actually did growing up gives the character a personality. Again, if you don't like reading about it...DON'T READ IT.



That explains a lot. Chicken Legs has said on more than one occasion she would love to have just such a ray gun. I had a feeder once who would feed me and feed me and feed me. If I wasn't hungry he would get outrageously upset. He would make it like I didn't love him or something crazy like that. I was finally getting fit when I moved in with him. By the time I left I could hardly walk for 10 minutes. If it wasn't for Chicken Legs getting me out of there who knows how far gone I would be into that crazy relationship. This is a guy who was unaware of feederisim, or anything like it. He was just a friend of mine who had some weird control issues about people eating his food. He was not a bad or evil guy. He just had some habits that were not healthy for those closely associated to him. Oddly enough I have another roommate who is a feeder, but just not as bad. He has a bit more concern for my health and doesn't get upset at me when I save food in the fridge rather than eating every last bite while its fresh. He is literally a the kind of feeder I can live with.

My point is, things like that are real. I've lived it. I've been in the hospital in part because of it. A story is just a story. Its when people cross the line and become abusers that I have issue with. Just cause I read a story that makes you feel sympathetic to the killer doesn't make me want to go out and become a killer. Millions of people have been subjected to just such a story. Some felt deep emotion and pain when the killer died. Children cried at his death, and this was a man who killed without remorse. The story became one so powerful that over 30 years later its still going strong, and those once children now buy their children little figures and coloring books of a galactic menacing killer. Its just a story, but perhaps you might say I'm tainted and evil for liking Darth Vader. Perhaps if Darth Vader was feeding people to death then he would be on the chopping block too...at least with some in this crowd.

People should be held accountable for their actions. Not the fountain from which the actions sprang up in. That would be like George Lucas being held responsible for some fascist groups in the NW that sprang up from a guy I knew who loved Star Wars and the idea of one dominating power and authority. When you give a person with an opposing view equal respect for their ideas no matter how deplorable to you. You often find a common ground leading to understanding from which true growth and compromise is possible.


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## KHayes666

escapist said:


> That explains a lot. Chicken Legs has said on more than one occasion she would love to have just such a ray gun. I had a feeder once who would feed me and feed me and feed me. If I wasn't hungry he would get outrageously upset. He would make it like I didn't love him or something crazy like that. I was finally getting fit when I moved in with him. By the time I left I could hardly walk for 10 minutes. If it wasn't for Chicken Legs getting me out of there who knows how far gone I would be into that crazy relationship. This is a guy who was unaware of feederisim, or anything like it. He was just a friend of mine who had some weird control issues about people eating his food. He was not a bad or evil guy. He just had some habits that were not healthy for those closely associated to him. Oddly enough I have another roommate who is a feeder, but just not as bad. He has a bit more concern for my health and doesn't get upset at me when I save food in the fridge rather than eating every last bite while its fresh. He is literally a the kind of feeder I can live with.
> 
> My point is, things like that are real. I've lived it. I've been in the hospital in part because of it. A story is just a story. Its when people cross the line and become abusers that I have issue with. Just cause I read a story that makes you feel sympathetic to the killer doesn't make me want to go out and become a killer. Millions of people have been subjected to just such a story. Some felt deep emotion and pain when the killer died. Children cried at his death, and this was a man who killed without remorse. The story became one so powerful that over 30 years later its still going strong, and those once children now buy their children little figures and coloring books of a galactic menacing killer. Its just a story, but perhaps you might say I'm tainted and evil for liking Darth Vader. Perhaps if Darth Vader was feeding people to death then he would be on the chopping block too...at least with some in this crowd.
> 
> People should be held accountable for their actions. Not the fountain from which the actions sprang up in. That would be like George Lucas being held responsible for some fascist groups in the NW that sprang up from a guy I knew who loved Star Wars and the idea of one dominating power and authority. When you give a person with an opposing view equal respect for their ideas no matter how deplorable to you. You often find a common ground leading to understanding from which true growth and compromise is possible.



I get what you're saying about cheering bad behavior when we'd personally never do such a thing. We're supposed to cheer Johnny Depp in the movie Public Enemies because he's supposedly a good guy thief....good thing the movie left out the fact John Dillinger was a multiple murderer on top of it or else the story changes. Or cheering Emilio Estevez playing Billy the Kid in Young Guns 1 and 2 when in real life Billy was on the same level as Dillinger just 50 years earlier.

I can understand if a story hits close to home (in your case a story of bhm control) and you don't want to read about it. However that doesn't mean you should report it. Also, some stories are so god awfully written that I hope they're never taken down just so I can laugh at them. This one story on fantasy feeder has a part where a black woman is "getting revenge" on another black woman by punching her in the stomach and saying "ima make ya shit yaself!". It took me a full minute to type that last sentence because I was laughing so hard at that dialogue.

Like I said in another thread, reporting and complaining about stories is pretty much on par with the PTC raid on network television by Brent Bozo (real name Bozzell but he really is a bozo). Unless its something truly offensive and wrong (child rape/underaged sex), my suggestion to the members of Dims who report stories is to leave them alone and go read something else like the Farmer's Almanac or something.

Oh and I wish I had such a ray gun too


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## Tooz

oh me oh my i'm just so touchy-feely and i can't share my fantasiesss.

it's not that i don't want stupid dill weeds to know what gets me off, no, it is that i must maintain moral high grounddddd

ugh.


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## LoveBHMS

> And more importantly, the two groups are irretrievably intertwined. Either both succeed or both fail. The success of one group helps the other, and ditto for failure. FAs benefit if fat women are respected by society and feel better about themselves. Fat women benefit if more FAs come out of the closet (and behave like gentlemen, of course). By the same token, if either group feels miserable and disaffected, it hurts members of the other group as well. [For FFAs and BHMs, please reverse the genders in what I've said. I'm not trying to leave you out.]



One thing i was discussing last night with a SSBBW who also is an FFA is that a problem with Dims (or open discussion in general about these issues) is it has the unfortunate effect of killing fantasy.

FA/FFA have a fantasy fatty. S/he doesn't want to lose weight, has no health issues, no lack of self confidence, exudes confidence all the time, and is totally happy all the time leaving the lights on during sex. The fantasy fatty has no residual emotional issues from negative messages from relatives or peers about body image. S/he wasn't chosen last for teams in gym class and easily laughs off any negative comments in the media about how gross fat women/fat men are. The fantasy fatty is never insecure at all and always dresses to show off the body that turns on the FA/FFA.

This fatty doesn't exist. And FAs come here and find that out.

Fat people also have fantasy FA. The FA has zero insecurities about preference. The FA's family has never said negative things about fat people and the FA wouldn't think twice about introducing you and never worries about what friends and family might say if you show up for a family party or company Christmas party with a SS partner. The FA is and always has been out and proud. The FA perfectly walks the line between being turned on by your body and also wanting whatever YOU want regarding your body. If you want to lose weight the FA will magically be equally turned on by a smaller version of you but at the same time s/he will never want you to lose weight for any reason if you don't want to. The fantasy FA has never thought it would be easier to have more mainstream tastes and has never thought twice about practical issues such as you fitting in places, movie theater seating, or being able to walk long distances. S/he is flawlessly able to accomodate your needs while never making you feel insecure.

This FA does not exist. And fat people come here and find that out.

FA read the WLS board and get angry. Fat people read the FA Board and criticize us for how we feel and even for recounting true life experiences. There is a general fear, anger, and resentment on both sides at having the fantasy blown up.


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## exile in thighville

LoveBHMS said:


> This fatty doesn't exist. And FAs come here and find that out.



no, they date and find that out. unless you're saying their masturbation doesn't exist.


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## escapist

LoveBHMS said:


> One thing i was discussing last night with a SSBBW who also is an FFA is that a problem with Dims (or open discussion in general about these issues) is it has the unfortunate effect of killing fantasy.
> 
> FA/FFA have a fantasy fatty. S/he doesn't want to lose weight, has no health issues, no lack of self confidence, exudes confidence all the time, and is totally happy all the time leaving the lights on during sex. The fantasy fatty has no residual emotional issues from negative messages from relatives or peers about body image. S/he wasn't chosen last for teams in gym class and easily laughs off any negative comments in the media about how gross fat women/fat men are. The fantasy fatty is never insecure at all and always dresses to show off the body that turns on the FA/FFA.
> 
> This fatty doesn't exist. And FAs come here and find that out.
> 
> Fat people also have fantasy FA. The FA has zero insecurities about preference. The FA's family has never said negative things about fat people and the FA wouldn't think twice about introducing you and never worries about what friends and family might say if you show up for a family party or company Christmas party with a SS partner. The FA is and always has been out and proud. The FA perfectly walks the line between being turned on by your body and also wanting whatever YOU want regarding your body. If you want to lose weight the FA will magically be equally turned on by a smaller version of you but at the same time s/he will never want you to lose weight for any reason if you don't want to. The fantasy FA has never thought it would be easier to have more mainstream tastes and has never thought twice about practical issues such as you fitting in places, movie theater seating, or being able to walk long distances. S/he is flawlessly able to accomodate your needs while never making you feel insecure.
> 
> This FA does not exist. And fat people come here and find that out.
> 
> FA read the WLS board and get angry. Fat people read the FA Board and criticize us for how we feel and even for recounting true life experiences. There is a general fear, anger, and resentment on both sides at having the fantasy blown up.



Here, here. There is some truth to this. Dims actually helped me a lot in understanding my FFA partner. I had talked to many via dims but seeing it face to face was another thing. Just tonight before she went to sleep she confessed to me that she looks me in the face as much as possible. Its the only way she can have conversations with me without going on overload. She even talks about how cool it was for her that I'm willing to adapt to her issues, not just her adapt to mine.

I'm grateful for the stories. I hardly read them myself before her. She was the one who recognized the abusive feederisim happening at my previous residence, because she reads those stories all the time. She has related this story before but when we first met she wanted me to sit on her. She watched lots of video's and read lots of stories. I didn't even know what to do or say when she said it. I'm almost a foot taller and more than 2x her body weight. I did as she requested but I wouldn't put my full weight on her. Only then did she start to realize a 500 lb guy is able to truly crush her without trying. This realization was re-enforce while over the course of dating last year I broke 3 couches and many, many, chairs.

There is a certain amount of reality to the fantasy's. Its interesting to me when she points out that I just did something normally and naturally from a story she just read. I can see why some F/FA's are shy and careful. Its not just the physical danger but the emotional stuff as well.

LoveBHMS, your post alone opened my eyes a bit. I was actually unaware that some of those traits were so much of what F/FA's are into. I am fairly secure in my bigness. I usually had gaggles of girls sitting on me or around me. I'm a total extrovert. Sure there are embarrassing moments, but they are just moments. I'm usually the first to get naked and strut my stuff, not to mention, loves having the lights on. As part of the special heavy team in football I was certainly not the last person picked in sports because I was not just huge but I was fast and agile as well. I outweighed anybody on our own team by 80 lbs, could do the splits and still outran others in the timed tryouts. As a whole though, your right. Hard to find 100% that in reality.

Good or bad I'm just not opposed to any of the stories or fantasy's. For the most part they are in the Library where they belong or the topics and questions of posters who wish to address, listen, share, and even learn about these topics.


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## jdsumm

escapist said:


> Most of us are not skilled or professional writers. I'm rather certain most of what we are after is to express "The Jist" of our thoughts. If people could focus on what others are trying to say, not the way they said it; I imagine we could put an end to 1/2 the nastiness encompassing so much of the bitterness and venomously reactionary posts.




Thank you! Well said!


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## BeautifulPoeticDisaster

LoveBHMS said:


> Fat people also have fantasy FA. The FA has zero insecurities about preference. The FA's family has never said negative things about fat people and the FA wouldn't think twice about introducing you and never worries about what friends and family might say if you show up for a family party or company Christmas party with a SS partner. The FA is and always has been out and proud. The FA perfectly walks the line between being turned on by your body and also wanting whatever YOU want regarding your body. If you want to lose weight the FA will magically be equally turned on by a smaller version of you but at the same time s/he will never want you to lose weight for any reason if you don't want to. The fantasy FA has never thought it would be easier to have more mainstream tastes and has never thought twice about practical issues such as you fitting in places, movie theater seating, or being able to walk long distances. S/he is flawlessly able to accomodate your needs while never making you feel insecure.
> 
> This FA does not exist. And fat people come here and find that out.



He totally does exist, his name is Mike...and I'm married to him


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## msbard90

superodalisque said:


> IMO fetish is sort of a side dish of sexuality for most people and a focus for some. i think maybe for those who have it as an intense focus it might tend to make them look at everything through fetish colored glasses. *i really don't feel that most dims members find fetish unacceptable but i think maybe its the crass and 100% self interested way that its sometimes approached that people have a problem with.*



The real problem here is that we get too comfortable with eachother, and talk to one another as if we are in bed with them. A lot of us ladies (from my observations... and I agree completely) just want to be talked to as ladies. If there's a mutual attraction, take it elsewhere (PM or email, wherever!). People can easily find it offensive.


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## musicman

LoveBHMS said:


> One thing i was discussing last night with a SSBBW who also is an FFA is that a problem with Dims (or open discussion in general about these issues) is it has the unfortunate effect of killing fantasy.
> 
> <Lots of good stuff about fantasy FAs/FFAs and fantasy fat people, snipped for space>




Very good observation about fantasy people vs. "real" people. Real FAs/FFAs and fat people should be natural allies, but I can see how that's not the case for the fantasy versions.

What is fantasy? Sometimes it involves physically impossible, dangerous, or socially unacceptable things, which is what many people are objecting to. But sometimes fantasy is just the natural functioning of the brain when it doesn't have enough information. When you meet someone with whom you seem to click, it's natural to want to know everything about them. If you can't find out what you need to know right away, your brain will start to generate assumptions, or projections, or fantasies, to fill in the missing information. The brain will build up a mental model of a complete person, but it might be only partially based on fact. We all do this subconsciously whether we want to or not. If a relationship proceeds normally, then increased communication will correct any wrong assumptions. As your mental model of the other person becomes more true to fact, you can decide if the relationship should continue. If, however, there is a lack of communication, then the fantasies can become stronger than the reality. When reality inevitably appears and contradicts the fantasy, the fantasizer can be devastated, and feel much more betrayed and hurt than they ordinarily would. I think many relationships suffer from this. (Not only personal relationships, but business relationships as well. Think about AOL and Time Warner. That merger had to be based on fantasy!) 

[I know there can also be darker explanations for some of this, like unhealthy control issues, but my point is that, even if everyone has the best intentions, our brain's natural functioning can lead us astray.]

Anyway, I see some of this inadvertent fantasizing in the group interactions between FAs/FFAs and fat people on these boards. And as with individuals, the only solution is more (and hopefully better) communication. I think this is the real value of the Dimensions website.

I would urge people to keep communicating, but try to recognize when you are reacting based on assumptions rather than knowledge, and continuously question the assumptions you have made about other groups of people.


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## superodalisque

i personally find the idea of a fantasy FA odd. maybe because i never knew FAs even existed until i was 40. the thought that it might be considered a fantasy to actually have an accepting relationship with a man and his friends and family totally takes me aback. i had always just thought i had been dating or in a very long term relationship with plain old decent upright guys and not fantasy FAs. i don't think i've had a fantasy about a type of guy since i was maybe 12 or 14. i'd rather spend that time actually getting to know appreciate and bond to a real person instead of attaching myself to something artificial. not that its wrong to do it but i often find myself wondering when people will lift their heads up from their fantasies enough to really be able to appreciate whats actually around them. i don't even think those amazing possibilities could be imagined especially if something is blocking you from being open to them. i worry that for a lot of people the concentration on a fantasy construct too much closes a lot of doors when it comes to appreciating real people and it makes them narrow in their ability to accept any deviation from the element of fantasy they've created for themselves for in real people.


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## Angel

superodalisque said:


> i personally find the idea of a fantasy FA odd. maybe because i never knew FAs even existed until i was 40. the thought that it might be considered a fantasy to actually have an accepting relationship with a man and his friends and family totally takes me aback. i had always just thought i had been dating or in a very long term relationship with plain old decent upright guys and not fantasy FAs. i don't think i've had a fantasy about a type of guy since i was maybe 12 or 14. i'd rather spend that time actually getting to know appreciate and bond to a real person instead of attaching myself to something artificial. not that its wrong to do it but i often find myself wondering when people will lift their heads up from their fantasies enough to really be able to appreciate whats actually around them. i don't even think those amazing possibilities could be imagined especially if something is blocking you from being open to them. i worry that for a lot of people the concentration on a fantasy construct too much closes a lot of doors when it comes to appreciating real people and it makes them narrow in their ability to accept any deviation from the element of fantasy they've created for themselves for in real people.





Same here, except I was 37. 

When I was in high school I weighed 240. I was the fat girl, the fattest girl, actually the fattest person. I was out going, semi-popular, intelligent, involved in various activities, etc. People liked me for me, because I was nice and sweet and fun to be around. Guys liked me for who I was, for the person I was. They weren't ashamed of me or embarrassed for their friends or family to know about - or to see - me. When I was 18 I met a new guy. We started dating and eventually were married. When I met him I weighed 250 at 5'8 3/4". He weighed 143 at 5'11". He wasn't an FA. He wasn't ashamed of my weight or size. He actually told me that he was proud to be seen with me. He never tried to hide me. I met his friends and his family. They all liked me and accepted me. 

We were happy. We were in love. I gained weight. 250-296 in three months; two weeks shy of turning 19. A little over two years later I weighed 417. Within ten years I had gained 300 pounds. I had more than doubled my weight. I was 29, weighed 547, was married, and still got hit on by guys... by guys who were NOT fat admirers. I had never met a man who was ashamed of me, or ashamed to be seen with me, or ashamed for his friends or family to meet me or to know about me. I would go to my then husband's place of work and travel with him. He was never ashamed of me or ashamed for co-workers from all over the eastern US to see us together. Even when I was at my highest weight he wasn't ashamed for anyone to meet me or ashamed to be seen with me.

Remember I had never known an FA either.

It wasn't until I met FAs, men who supposedly LOVED my size, that I also discovered that there were men who were ashamed for their friends or family to know about me. It wasn't until I met FAs that I discovered there were men who were ashamed to be seen in their own home towns with me. It wasn't until I met FAs that I had met a man who was ashamed for his professional co-workers to know that he liked fat women. It wasn't until I met FAs that I ever felt like I was some BIG FAT SECRET that men were ashamed of. It wasn't until I met FAs that I ever felt like I was just an online fat fix for some coward of an FA. 

Yes, I said coward. 

If any man is ashamed of me, ashamed for his friends or family to know about me or for them to know that he likes me, he is a coward. I have nothing to be ashamed of and no man worth having should feel like I am something to be ashamed of. This is how I see it, plain and simple. If a man is ashamed of me or ashamed to be seen with me, or ashamed to be seen with any fat woman he cares about, he is a coward. 

This is why some women have fantasy FAs. They want a man who will treat them like a woman should be treated, and not like she is something to be ashamed of or like she is someone to be kept hidden or like she is some BIG FAT SECRET like I have been made to feel in the past. 

I've never looked for or had dreams of a fantasy FA. I've always just wanted a man who would love me and accept me and who would show me the affection I desired and deserved. As I have always said I've just wanted someone who would love "all of me". That is what every female here deserves. You don't have to settle for someone who is ashamed of you. You don't have to settle for someone who is only attracted to your fat body or to fat body parts. Look for someone who will treat you the way you want to be treated and for someone who will treat you the way you deserve to be treated. Same to the sincere men here. If you are fat, please don't feel like you have to settle for someone who professes to be an FA or FFA if they try to find ways to avoid going out in public. You should never have to feel like you are someone to be ashamed of. Also don't discount those that may not be fat admirers. There are those who are not fat admirers who are capable of loving you just as much, if not more than someone who claims to be a fat admirer.

Those of us who are fat are more than just a fantasy. We are real. We live our lives every day as a fat person. We do what we have to do to survive and to lead productive lives. We face society and the world every day. We can't hide the fact that we are fat. We get out there and do what we need to do. If that isn't confidence, I don't know what confidence is!

Those that live in the FA fantasy world have some false assumption of what "being a confident fat person" is supposed to be. Being a fat confident person isn't about wearing tight clothes in public or about wearing short tops so our bellies show in public. Being a fat confident person is about being confident about who you are as a fat person and about being comfortable with who you are in the body you possess. It's about liking who you are both inside and out and about accepting all that you are. It's not about proving anything to anyone or about satisfying some random fat admirer's fantasy. 

Maybe that's the whole issue in a nutshell. There are those who prefer to live in a fantasy world where they only interact with fat people either while online, while in their bedrooms, within their own mind, or in some place secret so no one irl will ever know that they have desires for someone who is fat. As long as they live in some fantasy world they get to dictate what a fat person should be; what a fat person's body should be like; how a fat person is supposed to act; how a fat person is supposed to dress; how a fat person has sex; etc. As long as they live in that fantasy world and are encouraged to remain there, they will never know the realities or how wonderful sharing the reality of life with a fat person can be. The longer that someone lives in a fantasy world, the more not-so-accurate preconceived notions they will foster. When they express these not-so-accurate preconceived notions as fact guess who it is that's made to feel like they aren't perfect enough or good enough? Not the one living in the fantasy.


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## superodalisque

couldn't have been said better Angel. they wouldn't allow me to rep you again.


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## LillyBBBW

A lot of this also revolves around the reality to which one exists. Someone started a thread elsewhere that asked if acceptance can vary from place to place as she discussed her experiences living for a time in Thailand. I feel that I straddle that line a lot. In one place I feel perfectly comfortable and my size is either an asset or inconsequential. In another my size is a peculiar novelty or generally seen as a drawback and it's constantly in the forefront of my mind to the point of being paralyzing. For many people their experience may have been completely sheltered in that they've either experienced one or the other. I've experienced both and have an appreciation for one who may be somewhat more insecure about themselves or their preference.

Admittedly I have not had that many relationships in my life. My attitude towards others has been excessively harsh and intolerant. It was a stance I decided upon early, before I even graduated high school. My primary career interest was in a field that historically had been hostile towards fat people. About 95% of being an entertainer is rooted in having strong self esteem to the point of near exaggeration which is hard enough for anybody, let alone someone weighing over 300 pounds. I saw around me a lot of my female friends having their whole world uprooted with relationship issues that really took a bite out of them emotionally. I stiffened my back and thought, "No f'n way." I just don't have time to have someone making me feel bad about myself in any way. I have too many obstacles to overcome. There was so much more I wanted to do with my life that even with all of this thinking in place I was still too fearful to actually take that giant leap to compete. I needed an edge just to do the pithy things that I was doing, and the last thing I need was some wishy washy guy whining over how he's going to tell his mother about us. It's unfair of me to expect someone to always present a perfect image and be my source of self confidence but I don't want to be someone else's either. There has to be a level of maturity where people are willing to take ownership of their own identity. Anything less is unhealthy in my opinion. 

I realize that these are real issues that some people have to face because I face them myself. Some experience these things in greater measure according to the environment they exist in, I get that. While I can appreciate what it entails, there are times when I have to distance myself from some of that negativity. The two issues are natural mortal enemies. To try to join forces so to speak, the two issues can together reinforce one another. They can't exist together and in a way I can see why conversations on either side devolve into chaos. It makes me wonder if the same holds true for FAs who say they want a confident BBW? 'Confident' meaning someone who is responsible for their own self worth and not constantly self depreciating and in need of being reassured every minute. Nobody has time to hear anyone belly aching about their problems, and people who are having a serious discussion about these problems have no time to be lectured by some indignant over confident person with a get-well-quick answer for everything. 

In other words there will always be conflict. There can be a call for mutual respect but in my circumstance for example, to entertain someone's insecurities concerning me or themselves would be deadly. I'm trying to dig out from under this thing and here they come trying to pile on more. They just create more work for me to do and this is bothersome. It's why there is a distance even between me and my own family in a way. I can only endure them in increments. I feel the healthiest approach for me is to blaze that trail alone and not build my world around the approval of another person. I get as many people tearing me down as I do building me up. I think the same could be said for FAs and their unique issues as well. This is something that one needs to take ownership of on a personal level or you will only be able to go so far in your development.

I've been wanting to make a post like this for a while. I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I feel like I'm rambling.


----------



## Victim

superodalisque said:


> couldn't have been said better Angel. they wouldn't allow me to rep you again.



I caught that rep, although my rep power is still negligible, so rep her when you get the chance!


----------



## BBW Betty

superodalisque said:


> couldn't have been said better Angel. they wouldn't allow me to rep you again.



I got her for you. And you're right, that was one awesome post!


----------



## escapist

*Angel* - Thats to much for me to quote it all. All I hear is a lot of bitterness aimed at "FA's" who were not equipped in life to face the reality of their attraction. I'm not sure what the point of being upset about them for their issue is. Or as you put it, "It wasn't until I met FAs that I ever felt like I was just an online fat fix for some coward of an FA." I've known F/FA's who were poked, prodded, and harassed by their own family and loved ones because of their attraction to larger people. Most people don't go around painting targets on their back for the purpose of improving the aim of those seeking to corrupting another's social value. Most people have been used, abused, or manipulated by someone at some point in time. Not everyone in that position feels another persons weakness is reason to devalue their own self-worth. I don't know how or why that is. I'm sure its contingent upon many factors. 

There is however the wonderful moment in time when F/FA's are in the open and unafraid. My girlfriend is just such a person. She unabashedly lives her life in the open. Her good friend was here today, sitting in some bit of amazement that I'm 500+ lbs. They actually sat on the couch relating stories of her family's reactions to my size. There was quite a bit of laughing and fun when reflecting upon the comedy of the moments in question. I have been on the opposite side of the fence, I had more than one girlfriend that took up issue with my size. Those relationships are long since over. One of them has since changed and learned that such issues were petty. It is possible for experience and growth to lead to a world that is better and happier for all.

I guess what I'm saying is everyone has issues. How we choose to react to those issues is whats really important. When I meet F/FA's who fear the reprisal of others I just do my best to encourage them to find peace with who they are. Its just as important for an F/FA to find peace and joy in life as it is for any other person. When a person is a user there is little I can do about it. Feeling bad about it doesn't get me anywhere. I might feel some hurt over it, but I've waisted enough time in life holding on to old pain. Maybe in time the F/FA who hides in shame will one day be able to live in the light happy with themselves. Then they will be prepared to find the joyful relationship they truly desire. Maybe the users will realize they can't find lasting happiness in taking without care, but in giving without withholding. Amazing things can happen when we allow things to just be as they are, and develop and grow as they will.

I'm sure I'm not getting popular with my point of view, but its just how I see it and choose to feel about it.


----------



## LillyBBBW

escapist said:


> *Angel* - Thats to much for me to quote it all. All I hear is a lot of bitterness aimed at "FA's" who were not equipped in life to face the reality of their attraction. I'm not sure what the point of being upset about them for their issue is. Or as you put it, "It wasn't until I met FAs that I ever felt like I was just an online fat fix for some coward of an FA." I've known F/FA's who were poked, prodded, and harassed by their own family and loved ones because of their attraction to larger people. Most people don't go around painting targets on their back for the purpose of improving the aim of those seeking to corrupting another's social value. Most people have been used, abused, or manipulated by someone at some point in time. Not everyone in that position feels another persons weakness is reason to devalue their own self-worth. I don't know how or why that is. I'm sure its contingent upon many factors.
> 
> There is however the wonderful moment in time when F/FA's are in the open and unafraid. My girlfriend is just such a person. She unabashedly lives her life in the open. Her good friend was here today, sitting in some bit of amazement that I'm 500+ lbs. They actually sat on the couch relating stories of her family's reactions to my size. There was quite a bit of laughing and fun when reflecting upon the comedy of the moments in question. I have been on the opposite side of the fence, I had more than one girlfriend that took up issue with my size. Those relationships are long since over. One of them has since changed and learned that such issues were petty. It is possible for experience and growth to lead to a world that is better and happier for all.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is everyone has issues. How we choose to react to those issues is whats really important. When I meet F/FA's who fear the reprisal of others I just do my best to encourage them to find peace with who they are. Its just as important for an F/FA to find peace and joy in life as it is for any other person. When a person is a user there is little I can do about it. Feeling bad about it doesn't get me anywhere. I might feel some hurt over it, but I've waisted enough time in life holding on to old pain. Maybe in time the F/FA who hides in shame will one day be able to live in the light happy with themselves. Then they will be prepared to find the joyful relationship they truly desire. Maybe the users will realize they can't find lasting happiness in taking without care, but in giving without withholding. Amazing things can happen when we allow things to just be as they are, and develop and grow as they will.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not getting popular with my point of view, but its just how I see it and choose to feel about it.



That's a fine attitude to take if you are able. On the other hand though a stone is a stone. When someone is guilty of bad bahavior there can't be too much accomodation as if to say, "Awww. At least s/he's trying." Treating someone like shit is not okay and though I cringe myself at a lot of the bitternbess that is expressed here, they have every right to feel as if they do. And those users need to own their behavior and whatever aftermath is resulting from that behavior. I find that in many areas of my life I'm being asked to roll over and be accepting on behalf of someone else's issues with me, my sizee, my race, my gender, my political affiliations. When does it stop? When do I get to say, "Look skippy, treat me like a fucking human being or get out of my goddamned face,"? Isn't that what we're all fighting for here afterall? A place of dignity in the world? The journey starts in the mirror for most of us and if we make provisions to let it slide among our supposed friends and supporters we're already doomed. I get where it's coming from and like you I'm empathetic but that doesn't change anything for me. I still have to look in that mirror.


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## joswitch

@Angel - I think I see where the misunderstanding arises here - I believe you are confusing "FA" with "asshole"... and/or "closet case/cheating on his wife or gf" ... 
Some FAs are gentlemen, and I bet some of them were among those who hit on you in your married days... For instance: If I'm chatting up a cute fat girl and find out she's attached, then I generally respond with "oh, you're married! Well, he's a lucky guy! Nice to have met you..." the odds of my FA-ness getting mentioned in the short convo leading up to that are slim to none...


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## escapist

LillyBBBW said:


> A place of dignity in the world? The journey starts in the mirror for most of us and if we make provisions to let it slide among our supposed friends and supporters we're already doomed. I get where it's coming from and like you I'm empathetic but that doesn't change anything for me. I still have to look in that mirror.




Well said. I believe strongly that to live with others we have to be able to live with ourselves first. I see nothing wrong with being assertive in a quest for proper treatment and respect. I also see nothing wrong with striving for ideals such as turning the other cheek. Either paths take a lot of strength of character, and can hardly be considered weak.




joswitch said:


> @Angel - I think I see where the misunderstanding arises here - I believe you are confusing "FA" with "asshole"... and/or "closet case/cheating on his wife or gf" ...
> Some FAs are gentlemen, and I bet some of them were among those who hit on you in your married days... For instance: If I'm chatting up a cute fat girl and find out she's attached, then I generally respond with "oh, you're married! Well, he's a lucky guy! Nice to have met you..." the odds of my FA-ness getting mentioned in the short convo leading up to that are slim to none...




Exactly! There seems to be a lot of that going around. Blaming a community for the actions of one or a few; such ways are the birth place of the very same prejudice most of us are trying to combat in the face place. Where is the logic in that?


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## mszwebs

joswitch said:


> *@Angel - I think I see where the misunderstanding arises here - I believe you are confusing "FA" with "asshole"... and/or "closet case/cheating on his wife or gf" ... *
> Some FAs are gentlemen, and I bet some of them were among those who hit on you in your married days... For instance: If I'm chatting up a cute fat girl and find out she's attached, then I generally respond with "oh, you're married! Well, he's a lucky guy! Nice to have met you..." the odds of my FA-ness getting mentioned in the short convo leading up to that are slim to none...



But she's not. Not really. And you saying that is like petting her sweetly on the head and condescending to tell her "how it really is". 

You're clearly not a fat woman and so you're not encountering the same men she is, or I am or the men that any woman on this board does, in the same way.

I am not saying, and I would never say that "ALL" FA's are assholes or whatever negative adjective is the favorite of the say around here sometimes, but come on. FA's are just like everyone else. There are good ones and bad ones and if the only ones that someone runs into ARE the bad ones, who is anyone to negate that experience?

I have made friends with some wonderful men from this board, and have had some real dings to my psyche. I'm sorry, but you CANNOT sit there and tell me, or any other woman that we're confusing the FA's with anyone, including the "bad guys" - and there ARE bad guys, FA or not. 

The good, the bad and the ugly exist in all communities, but because ours is so small, we find them a lot faster and we're quick to point it out because no one needs to have the same experience.


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## joswitch

@mszwebs - when you said there are good and bad in every group? That was my point.
And from Angel's posts it seems she DOES have a perception filter that goes like this:
gentlemen = not FAs.
FAs = assholes.
So even if she met an FA that was a gent, she wouldn't be able to recognise him.
That's common on DIMS, much more than IRL, to the point that people have regularly assumed all kindsa horrible shit about me on here - just cos I'm FA. 
I feel sad that so many of you have had bad experiences. 
But this thread has turned into the same tired, bash-the-FA-fest I've read far too often here. That it's now moved to "my FAphobia is justified by my past experience and I'm sticking to it!"? Ok. You all carry on. Unsubscribing.


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## superodalisque

escapist said:


> *Angel* - Thats to much for me to quote it all. All I hear is a lot of bitterness aimed at "FA's" who were not equipped in life to face the reality of their attraction. I'm not sure what the point of being upset about them for their issue is. Or as you put it, "It wasn't until I met FAs that I ever felt like I was just an online fat fix for some coward of an FA." I've known F/FA's who were poked, prodded, and harassed by their own family and loved ones because of their attraction to larger people. Most people don't go around painting targets on their back for the purpose of improving the aim of those seeking to corrupting another's social value. Most people have been used, abused, or manipulated by someone at some point in time. Not everyone in that position feels another persons weakness is reason to devalue their own self-worth. I don't know how or why that is. I'm sure its contingent upon many factors.
> 
> There is however the wonderful moment in time when F/FA's are in the open and unafraid. My girlfriend is just such a person. She unabashedly lives her life in the open. Her good friend was here today, sitting in some bit of amazement that I'm 500+ lbs. They actually sat on the couch relating stories of her family's reactions to my size. There was quite a bit of laughing and fun when reflecting upon the comedy of the moments in question. I have been on the opposite side of the fence, I had more than one girlfriend that took up issue with my size. Those relationships are long since over. One of them has since changed and learned that such issues were petty. It is possible for experience and growth to lead to a world that is better and happier for all.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is everyone has issues. How we choose to react to those issues is whats really important. When I meet F/FA's who fear the reprisal of others I just do my best to encourage them to find peace with who they are. Its just as important for an F/FA to find peace and joy in life as it is for any other person. When a person is a user there is little I can do about it. Feeling bad about it doesn't get me anywhere. I might feel some hurt over it, but I've waisted enough time in life holding on to old pain. Maybe in time the F/FA who hides in shame will one day be able to live in the light happy with themselves. Then they will be prepared to find the joyful relationship they truly desire. Maybe the users will realize they can't find lasting happiness in taking without care, but in giving without withholding. Amazing things can happen when we allow things to just be as they are, and develop and grow as they will.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not getting popular with my point of view, but its just how I see it and choose to feel about it.



its true that everyone has issues. you are exactly right in focusing on how we react to our difficulties as the important thing. i think basically thats what Angel is saying. feeling that you _must_ react in unhealthy ways is a problem. feeling that reacting in unhealthy ways is the norm is a problem. you have to have people who are willing to stand up and say that thats not the way it has to be or should be as well as people who emphathize. but it really doesn't help to enable people. and maybe its an encouragement to know that there are a lot of people out there who are not living in a negative FA cave? maybe its an important wake up call to know that there are a whole lot of BBWs out there with loving partners who don't feel its hell on earth to be in that position. maybe its helpful for an FA to feel that he really is normal? --and just maybe he doesn't have to see himself as being so abnormal after all? in the meantime while someone is coming to that realization he can't be enabled to continue to do things that hurt him and the people he cares about.

BBWs shouldn't be encouraged to be martyrs to someone else's psychic damage. she has a life to live too. and, it is not limited to people who are still struggling with the fact that they are even attracted to them. i mean you wouldn't ask a gay person who is happy with his or herself to strap themselves to someone body and soul who is finding being gay a total misery and pretend like that is a rational way to be feeling. feelings can be validated but bad actions can't. IMO BBWs help and encourage when they say it doesn't have to be that way and they have the experiences to back that up. after all , you need to now what you are trying to get to looks like. you can't just mull over dysfunction over and over again. 

when a guy finally decides that his own opinions needs and affections are more important than what people who'd piss his happiness away for appearances sake thats when he is ready to really be in contact with a BBW. until then a BBW doesn't owe him anything. but she does owe herself the right to be loved and respected and not treated like something is wrong with her. the problem is when people ask or pressure her to put her own self worth or self esteem on the back burner.

i think what BBWs can get upset about is the fact that they are expected to give themselves, thier time, and thier spirit and self determination away to someone who doesn't know how to value it. and they are often told thats the only choice they have and anything else is a fantasy for them. thats a load of hooey that has to be debunked especially for the well being of other BBWs here who are finding themselves. being sacrificial lambs isn't the only choice they have. a nice man isn't a fantasy. and who says a man with issues can't make himself into a nice man? if no one helps him honestly and acts as though his negative situation is the norm that can't be turned around we encourage himself to stay frozen in dysfunction. we shouldn't be making it too comfortable for him to stay there. understanding is one thing but enabling is another. by pretending that most BBWs are hanging around waiting for a fantasy FA instead of going about their lives and finding people who love them is doing FAs an injustice and giving them unrealistic expectations about how much effort they need to make to actually get it together and compete for the women they are dreaming about.

maybe one big way dimensions has changed is that BBWs have realized that the coddling and enabling hasn't helped a lot of people. there are a lot of great FAs out there for sure. but there are also guys who have been allowed to stay comfortable in their bs for a long time so they never felt the need to improve and never have. they have their lists and requirements but BBWs have their wants as well and there is an alternative. sometimes people have to be reminded of that before they get too comfortable believing that there will always be someone available when they decide to behave well.


----------



## chicken legs

The blame game I see going on here is..

*the person of size:* You're the blame because you won't change you're lifestyle for me.

*the admirer:* You're the blame because you won't change you're lifestyle for me.


Who is right in this situation?

I have had many a men want to be with me because of attraction but when it comes down to day to day living, I usually turn them down. A person may want a exotic car, pet, or whatever, but the reality is they don't have the money, support, maturity, dedication, etc...it needs to have it or keep it. If that person realizes they only want to rent one, are they a horrible person? If the person realizes that a person doesn't have what it takes to have that exotic whatever, and doesn't want to take a chance on them..are they the horrible person?

It really gets messy when we have delusions about the other person, or we feel we can change (train) them to do what we want. People are not dogs and even if they were...you can't teach an old dog new tricks.


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## Angel

joswitch said:


> @mszwebs - when you said there are good and bad in every group? That was my point.
> And from Angel's posts it seems she DOES have a perception filter that goes like this:
> gentlemen = not FAs.
> FAs = assholes.
> So even if she met an FA that was a gent, she wouldn't be able to recognise him.



You are wrong, because I am involved with and dating a FA who is nice, a gentleman, not ashamed of me, not ashamed to be seen with me, nor ashamed for his friends or family to know about me or for them to meet me. And guess what. I met him at Dimensions.

I know there are some nice FAs here who are gentleman and would make a BBW or SSBBW happy. They know that I appreciate them because I have written to them and told them. Some I have even told that I admire them for what they stand for as an individual and as a member of this community. 

Why is it that every time a female here tries to stand up for other females here and say that we deserve to be treated as better than second class citizens by some of the FA here that we are dismissed, invalidated, or painted as bitter? As long as excuses are made and the poor hapless nonconfident are coddled and babied nothing will ever change around here. At some point there needs to be accountability and at some point these guys need to grow up, mature, and stop acting like "assholes" as you called them.


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## mszwebs

joswitch said:


> @mszwebs - when you said there are good and bad in every group? That was my point.
> And from Angel's posts it seems she DOES have a perception filter that goes like this:
> gentlemen = not FAs.
> FAs = assholes.
> So even if she met an FA that was a gent, she wouldn't be able to recognise him.
> That's common on DIMS, much more than IRL, to the point that people have regularly assumed all kindsa horrible shit about me on here - just cos I'm FA.
> I feel sad that so many of you have had bad experiences.
> But this thread has turned into the same tired, bash-the-FA-fest I've read far too often here. That it's now moved to "my FAphobia is justified by my past experience and I'm sticking to it!"? Ok. You all carry on. Unsubscribing.




I'm sorry. I don't HAVE an FA phobia. And I don't want your pity. And I'm willing to bet neither does Angel.

And while that may have been your point, you said it extremely condescendingly.

She didn't say FA's= assholes. She said that until she met FA's, she didn't know that there were men who professed to love fat women but were ashamed to be seen with them. And you know what, I didn't either. Or maybe I did know it but I couldn't recognize it, because I didn't know that there was an entire world full of me that DID love my body. That is a huge difference, and if you can't see that, you might want to start eating carrots.

Is it so much to want someone who cares what's going on in your head at least as much as what's going in your mouth? (And I do not say that with any implication of FA's/Feederism/any other thing that someone will jump on me for.) I just want a guy that thinks fat girls are pretty, and appreciates all of me. Is it so much to ask?

I really don't think so.

As far as the thread turning to bashing and you running away from it...that kind of goes back to the comments in the original post about support that Mr. West Coast made , and the posts about communication that came not long after it.

We're all so effing defensive because this has become such a tense community that we shoot first and ask questions later. If we happen to miss, and and ask and don't want to deal with the answer that was given, we "unsubscribe" and run away.


Eta: I just noticed that Angel beat me to the response, but I'm leaving this up anyway.


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## superodalisque

joswitch said:


> @mszwebs - when you said there are good and bad in every group? That was my point.
> And from Angel's posts it seems she DOES have a perception filter that goes like this:
> gentlemen = not FAs.
> FAs = assholes.
> So even if she met an FA that was a gent, she wouldn't be able to recognise him.
> That's common on DIMS, much more than IRL, to the point that people have regularly assumed all kindsa horrible shit about me on here - just cos I'm FA.
> I feel sad that so many of you have had bad experiences.
> But this thread has turned into the same tired, bash-the-FA-fest I've read far too often here. That it's now moved to "my FAphobia is justified by my past experience and I'm sticking to it!"? Ok. You all carry on. Unsubscribing.



no i think what Angel is trying to do is debunk the myth that every BBWs are all sitting around waiting for a "fantasy" FA as Lovesbhms wrote. there are guys out there who are real people in the real world around us every day who have no problem being with us. its an artificial construct to say that only a guy in the BBW community can love us and appreciate us physically. not only that, but there are many of us who experience that every day. acting like a politically aware is the only guy is misleading. also assuming that they are the only ones who will treat you well is wrong. i'm not downing FAs when i say they have treated me worse than any man not an FA. its just my personal reality. i think its important for people to know that some BBWs have that reality. that also comes from meeting people in person and not just online now. some i've even met by accident.

for some reason a lot of them have felt entitled in ways that other men don't because they have the idea that BBWs should be and are desperate. i'm not sure they can be 100% faulted for that since in the community no one has been telling them anything different. the BBW community is not that relationship friendly in general. its like some kind of weird suspended reality where no one seems to notice the fat people "out there" loving and being loved. even here happy BBWs and BHMs seem pushed to the periphery as thought hey don't exist. and when they say something about the possibility of being happy they are told they are preachy unrealistic etc... even though they are the ones who actually have or have had relationships marriages etc...maybe its good not to perpetuate myths so people can finally understand where they really are in the scheme of things and why it is they keep attracting people who have a lot of emotional issues and don't like thier bodies instead of attracting the ones who do. 

i think its sad when guys tend to storm out of a thread when they think its attacking FAs. would you rather we lie to you so that you feel good. or do you want to hear various people's truth so that you can analyze it any way you can and maybe take something away you never knew before. the only reason people are bothering to post is because they hope to help in their own way. i like FAs. i want them to make it. i feel the only reason they haven't made it at times is because people have been hiding their truth because they knew it would hurt their feelings. but maybe it hurts more not to tell the truth in the long run.


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## superodalisque

chicken legs said:


> The blame game I see going on here is..
> 
> *the person of size:* You're the blame because you won't change you're lifestyle for me.
> 
> *the admirer:* You're the blame because you won't change you're lifestyle for me.
> 
> 
> Who is right in this situation?
> 
> I have had many a men want to be with me because of attraction but when it comes down to day to day living, I usually turn them down. A person may want a exotic car, pet, or whatever, but the reality is they don't have the money, support, maturity, dedication, etc...it needs to have it or keep it. If that person realizes they only want to rent one, are they a horrible person? If the person realizes that a person doesn't have what it takes to have that exotic whatever, and doesn't want to take a chance on them..are they the horrible person?
> 
> It really gets messy when we have delusions about the other person, or we feel we can change (train) them to do what we want. People are not dogs and even if they were...you can't teach an old dog new tricks.



no i don't think he is a horrible person as long as he accepts that i'm not the one for rent and doesn't get angry at me for not wanting to be for rent.


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## superodalisque

all i expect is not to be pressured to lie about how i really feel and who i really am. i wish my reality were something different bit its not. does that make every FA a bad guy? i'm leaving your conclusions up to you. you decide.


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## chicken legs

The bs I see is when I make a comment about something and Escapist says a similar thing and the BBWs react... and usually they react in a more positive way...(how bhms react to fa attention vs. bbw). The when Joswitch says a similar comment to mine and the BBWs react in a negative way (mixing FA traits with the entire personality of the person).

Tomato....tomato'


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## superodalisque

LillyBBBW said:


> That's a fine attitude to take if you are able. On the other hand though a stone is a stone. When someone is guilty of bad bahavior there can't be too much accomodation as if to say, "Awww. At least s/he's trying." Treating someone like shit is not okay and though I cringe myself at a lot of the bitternbess that is expressed here, they have every right to feel as if they do. And those users need to own their behavior and whatever aftermath is resulting from that behavior. I find that in many areas of my life I'm being asked to roll over and be accepting on behalf of someone else's issues with me, my sizee, my race, my gender, my political affiliations. When does it stop? When do I get to say, "Look skippy, treat me like a fucking human being or get out of my goddamned face,"? Isn't that what we're all fighting for here afterall? A place of dignity in the world? The journey starts in the mirror for most of us and if we make provisions to let it slide among our supposed friends and supporters we're already doomed. I get where it's coming from and like you I'm empathetic but that doesn't change anything for me. I still have to look in that mirror.



exquisite!


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## chicken legs

superodalisque said:


> no i don't think he is a horrible person as long as he accepts that i'm not the one for rent and doesn't get angry at me for not wanting to be for rent.



Thats good and you shouldn't get mad that all that person wants to do is rent and its good that you can gauge whether or not a person can or can't meet your needs/wants before you invest to much of yourself into the relationship.


I might be considered a Bitch by my brothers and guys (and others) that can't my lifestyle but at least I'm honest with myself (at least I try..lol) and those I deal with. I'm just saying, don't get stuck on one person or one group...just move on to the next one..(sometimes easier said than done).


----------



## Victim

I really don't see why being an FA is that big of a deal. Just date who you damn well please and if someone gives you any crap for it, THEY are the one with the problem, not you.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

Angel said:


> If you are raising a son, hopefully you teach him to respect women. Hopefully you raise him in a way so that when he gets older he will view women and treat women as more than "a piece of ass". Why should we have any less expectations for the men here?



Exactly. Bingo. Score. 

The message that *I* read into some of the posts here is that some of these people are doing us some immaculate favor straight from gawd to be attracted to us. 
Why should anyone be expected to settle for such a thing/relationship/attitude? Being alone is better than being with someone that looks down on you. 



Angel said:


> Maybe that's the whole issue in a nutshell. There are those who prefer to live in a fantasy world where they only interact with fat people either while online, while in their bedrooms, within their own mind, or in some place secret so no one irl will ever know that they have desires for someone who is fat. As long as they live in some fantasy world they get to dictate what a fat person should be; what a fat person's body should be like; how a fat person is supposed to act; how a fat person is supposed to dress; how a fat person has sex; etc. As long as they live in that fantasy world and are encouraged to remain there, they will never know the realities or how wonderful sharing the reality of life with a fat person can be. *The longer that someone lives in a fantasy world, the more not-so-accurate preconceived notions they will foster. When they express these not-so-accurate preconceived notions as fact guess who it is that's made to feel like they aren't perfect enough or good enough? Not the one living in the fantasy.
> *
> 
> [/COLOR]



She must be building a house because she keeps hitting those nails on the head :bow:



superodalisque said:


> couldn't have been said better Angel. they wouldn't allow me to rep you again.



Me either.....though I owe her big time.


----------



## cinnamitch

Angel said:


> You are wrong, because I am involved with and dating a FA who is nice, a gentleman, not ashamed of me, not ashamed to be seen with me, nor ashamed for his friends or family to know about me or for them to meet me. And guess what. I met him at Dimensions.
> 
> I know there are some nice FAs here who are gentleman and would make a BBW or SSBBW happy. They know that I appreciate them because I have written to them and told them. Some I have even told that I admire them for what they stand for as an individual and as a member of this community.
> 
> Why is it that every time a female here tries to stand up for other females here and say that we deserve to be treated as better than second class citizens by some of the FA here that we are dismissed, invalidated, or painted as bitter? As long as excuses are made and the poor hapless nonconfident are coddled and babied nothing will ever change around here. At some point there needs to be accountability and at some point these guys need to grow up, mature, and stop acting like "assholes" as you called them.



Because we are not encouraged to say ANYTHING that puts a "FA" in a negative light, no matter how much of a jerk that person or person has been even if just giving our life experiences in a general sense and always clarifying that we do not mean EVERY FA.

It is better when we sit here like good girls and just be quiet unless we have something nice to say , because heaven forbid if we can actually speak our feelings because ours don't count because we just want to be negative or drama queens. Remember this is a place for FA to admire us and sort through all the difficulties they have had coming to terms with this fat admiration. We on the other hand just need to move on and learn to live with our problems.


----------



## rainyday

Angel said:


> Why is it that every time a female here tries to stand up for other females here and say that we deserve to be treated as better than second class citizens by some of the FA here that we are dismissed, invalidated, or painted as bitter?



Because it starts from the top down. Exhibit A:



Webmaster said:


> A big problem is that males are simply inherently extroverted and visual in their approach to life, whereas females, in general, are more touchy-feely and extremely reluctant to share their own fantasies, thus retaining the high moral ground. As long as that divide exists and neither side is willing to acknowledge and work with the other, the conflict will never end.



And that's also why it's not going to go away.


----------



## MisticalMisty

BeautifulPoeticDisaster said:


> He totally does exist, his name is Mike...and I'm married to him



Ditto. Rob is/does all those things.


----------



## superodalisque

rainyday said:


> Because it starts from the top down. Exhibit A:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's also why it's not going to go away.



i agree. it has to be seen that its not a matter of being of a different sex. its the fact that everyone of every sex should be respected and listened to without having their feelings invalidated. and the big thing is to see that no one FA or BBW deserves to have real people exist soley to fulfill their sexual fantasies. there are porn sites and paysites and people who agree to role play for that. its not the responsibility of every real person to maintain their fantasy. that attitude of entitlement needs to be kept for the people they pay or play with.


----------



## superodalisque

MisticalMisty said:


> Ditto. Rob is/does all those things.



it wonderful to cyu guys. don't disappear. people need to cyu.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

superodalisque said:


> i agree. it has to be seen that its not a matter of being of a different sex. its the fact that everyone of every sex should be respected and listened to without having their feelings invalidated. and the big thing is to see that no one FA or BBW deserves to have real people exist soley to fulfill their sexual fantasies. there are porn sites and paysites and people who agree to role play for that. its not the responsibility of every real person to maintain their fantasy. that attitude of entitlement needs to be kept for the people they pay or play with.



My problem is that *I* feel a little entitled myself.....to respect, dignity and consideration for being exactly how I am. 
Someone like me, or anyone else, liked/wanted for being exactly how/who we are should be a given......and not some great gift bestowed upon us. 

Equal ground.....but then again, some people in this world can't deal with other people being on equal ground. 

No, women aren't from Venus and men from Mars. We're all right here on planet earth- equal human beings no matter what we weigh or like. Accept it.


----------



## CleverBomb

Once again, can't rep. But, yes.

Men are from Earth.
Women are from Earth.
Deal with it.


-Rusty


----------



## mossystate

It's much more fun to assign planets, dontcha know.


----------



## LillyBBBW

Angel said:


> You are wrong, because I am involved with and dating a FA who is nice, a gentleman, not ashamed of me, not ashamed to be seen with me, nor ashamed for his friends or family to know about me or for them to meet me. And guess what. I met him at Dimensions.
> 
> I know there are some nice FAs here who are gentleman and would make a BBW or SSBBW happy. They know that I appreciate them because I have written to them and told them. Some I have even told that I admire them for what they stand for as an individual and as a member of this community.
> 
> Why is it that every time a female here tries to stand up for other females here and say that we deserve to be treated as better than second class citizens by some of the FA here that we are dismissed, invalidated, or painted as bitter? As long as excuses are made and the poor hapless nonconfident are coddled and babied nothing will ever change around here. At some point there needs to be accountability and at some point these guys need to grow up, mature, and stop acting like "assholes" as you called them.



It might be due to the tone set in your initial statement which made me uncomfortable as well. You basically made a post that said I was happy and secure, minding my own business among normal well adjusted folks and then at 37 I was introduced to the concept of those dastardly FA people who ruined everything for me. Replace FA with anything, Catholic volley ball stars, and you'll have Catholic volley ball stars coming in here saying wait a minute. This isn't about men and women bla bla bla. This was a case of people responding to what you said which was worded to encompass a whole group of people unfairly. That may not have been what you meant but that is not the way it read out.


----------



## superodalisque

Victim said:


> I really don't see why being an FA is that big of a deal. Just date who you damn well please and if someone gives you any crap for it, THEY are the one with the problem, not you.



exactly. and maybe thats the point in a way. from the BBW/FA point of view a lot of guys who can really understand a woman won't even bring the FA thing into it even if he knew what one was for quite some time into the relationship because for him its just about people-- a man and a woman. so even a BBW might not know if he was one or not. generally speaking the guys who are always putting FA in your face are the ones who tend to have trouble relating in general. because they may approach people as more of a sexual designation rather than an individual person.


----------



## superodalisque

chicken legs said:


> Thats good and you shouldn't get mad that all that person wants to do is rent and its good that you can gauge whether or not a person can or can't meet your needs/wants before you invest to much of yourself into the relationship.
> 
> 
> I might be considered a Bitch by my brothers and guys (and others) that can't my lifestyle but at least I'm honest with myself (at least I try..lol) and those I deal with. I'm just saying, don't get stuck on one person or one group...just move on to the next one..(sometimes easier said than done).



props to you for not lying about who you are and what you are after. not everybody is so honest. people play a lot of mind games.


----------



## escapist

superodalisque said:


> exactly. and maybe thats the point in a way. from the BBW/FA point of view a lot of guys who can really understand a woman won't even bring the FA thing into it even if he knew what one was for quite some time into the relationship because for him its just about people-- a man and a woman. so even a BBW might not know if he was one or not. generally speaking the guys who are always putting FA in your face are the ones who tend to have trouble relating in general. *because they may approach people as more of a sexual designation rather than an individual person*.



I can't speak for every man, but overcoming sexual attraction is one of the first things most guys have to learn to do. Its really not easy either. When someone is hitting your attraction scale so hard it explodes and you can hardly talk. I've seen it with the FFA's too. Chicken Legs warned me before we met face to face that she may not be able to talk, and she wasn't. I've seen it with other girls who were into me who were not FFA's. I myself have a hard time when someone is so high on my attraction scale I can't think. It can take me a while to calm down and be able to just talk to them. I'm bi-sizual so this happens to me with thin little sexy things just as much as big Hot things. Personally I would love nothing more than to have total control over it. It would make talking to some people soooo much easier. I hate having to worry that I might be showing to much interest, or making someone I'm into feel awkward just because I'm into them and can't explain why. Attraction rarely cares what you think though. It only cares what you feel. Just ask anybody who dated someone they knew was bad for them, but couldn't stop thinking about that person anyways.

There seems to be little awareness to what is actually going on in the minds of F/FA's or BHM/BBW's because we are too wrapped up in seeing things from our own perspective. A few of us are on both sides of the coin, we have the rare advantage of being both Big and F/FA. I've seen it a lot here (and experienced it myself) where someone thought another was thinking or behaving one way. When really it just wasn't the case. Often by that point it doesn't matter anymore. One party is so wrapped up in feeling hurt or pain they don't care to find the truth. Often they are more concerned with wrath, vengeance, or worse self-pity.

Its wonderful when others can take the time to see others for who they really are. When someone you feel close to can understand your wants and needs without expressing them, there is true joy to be found in it. It seems odd to me when people can't see how destructive it is to require that level of understanding. Sure it doesn't feel great. It might even feel hurtful. When the one you love can't see what you feeling there may even be a real disconnect. We aren't a race of mind-readers though. No matter how much we desire that level of connection with others. I wish I had all the answers, or some level of amazing enlightenment. I only know from my own experience its best to give things time. To forgive and forget. To allow not require. To love not to hate. To seek balance not want everything. It doesn't help in every situation, but its a good start.


----------



## Angel

LillyBBBW said:


> It might be due to the tone set in your initial statement which made me uncomfortable as well. You basically made a post that said I was happy and secure, minding my own business among normal well adjusted folks and then at 37 I was introduced to the concept of those dastardly FA people who ruined everything for me. Replace FA with anything, Catholic volley ball stars, and you'll have Catholic volley ball stars coming in here saying wait a minute. This isn't about men and women bla bla bla. This was a case of people responding to what you said which was worded to encompass a whole group of people unfairly. That may not have been what you meant but that is not the way it read out.



Tone? 

"dastardly FA people who ruined everything for me"?

"what you said which was worded to encompass a whole group of people unfairly"?


The *only* "tone" was that no one deserves to be treated like they are someone or something to be ashamed of.

Sorry, but not one of the FA I met or encountered or spoke with or instant messaged with or corresponded with by e-mail had that kind of power over me to "ruin everything" in my life. I wouldn't even say they were dastardly. I would say that they were maybe insecure or that their fear of what others may think of them was stronger than both their confidence/(?confidence in themselves as being a FA?) and their professed feelings for or thoughts of/about me. 

I was relating my experiences and my experiences only involve those* whom I have met in person or encountered/corresponded with online. I did not say "every FA" or "all FA" or "FAs as a whole" or even insinuate that. Again, I was relating the experiences I had with men who claimed to be fat admirers but who also for whatever reason were/are afraid/ashamed to be seen in public with a BBW/SSBBW/or me or who are afraid/ashamed for their friends, family, or peers to know/find out that they are attracted to fat woman/or me. 

I have lost count of how many times I have been given the message _I would love to meet you but it has to be just between me and you and I wouldn't want anyone to ever find out and it has to be somewhere private where no one would know either of us_. I even had one FA who used to post on the boards persue me. He was persistant. He was/is an open FA/SSBBW admirer. He wanted me bad. His words: I'll f*** you in my basement and if you ever tell anyone I'll lie and say that I never met you.  That wasn't my idea of a romantic evening, so I turned him down. 

I know that I'm not the only female here who has had these kinds of experiences with men/FAs that we have met from here. Are all FA like this? NO! But pretending that guys like this don't exist here is an insult to every female that has met or encountered even one of them. Most guys like this give themselves away/reveal their true character long before we ever agree to meet them in person. Some, though, put on a good act and it's not until after meeting -or worse, until after the female falls for the male- that it's realized that in all honesty they are ashamed of us or of their preference. 



*Note: _Those_ were men who at first professed to be "open" FAs; not ashamed of being attracted to fat woman. I don't expect a man who is what we refer to here as an FA to have to proclaim to the world or to have to go around telling people that he is attracted to fat women. Personally, I don't think a FA/FFA needs or has to to verbally tell his/her friends, family, co-workers that he/she is attracted to fat women/men in order to be an "out" FA/FFA. Date who you want to date, and don't be ashamed of who you find attractive, or make them feel like they are something to be ashamed of.


----------



## Angel

escapist said:


> I can't speak for every man, but overcoming sexual attraction is one of the first things most guys have to learn to do. Its really not easy either.



Maybe that's part of the problem. That rather than _embracing_ what is felt and _accepting_ what is felt as something *natural* or *normal*, it is viewed that feelings and what is felt need to be overcome or controlled.


Rephrased above! (not meaning that actions shouldn't be controlled)


----------



## LovelyLiz

Angel - YES. I agree with you. You've made many great points in this thread. I doubt there are many women on here who have been posting for a while and haven't run into one of these basement-dwelling jackasses.

One additional thing I've been thinking about - it's not helpful when we take the specific segment of FAs that feel the need to come to an online community for camaraderie/support/etc. in their love of fat people to become representative of their entire gender, or even an entire group (like FAs). While certainly many of the FAs on this site are out living their lives unashamed, there are also a lot of FAs on here who specifically come to an anonymous online community because they ARE ashamed and want a place where they can express their desires for fat people without any anticipated backlash from their friends/family/society in general.

Lots more FAs, who are not part of any online fat community, are out there in the world dating and f**king fat people as part of their normal, open, daily lives (and yes, for you FAs on here that do that, it shows how those things are not always mutually exclusive). 

But I think we sometimes talk as if the Dimensions FAs are representative of all FAs, while they are really just representative of a specific segment of FAs that choose to be part of a forum community like Dimensions; and I wonder whether certain FAs are more likely to make that choice than others, yknow?


----------



## chicken legs

Its one thing to express a form of Feminism ..protecting women, equality, etc. However, please don't confuse that with misandry..man-child, bumbling, "when FA's miss the mark"..etc... because that retards the Feminist movement. Showing hatred towards either gender doesn't help anyone. Misandry and misogeny are the two sides to gender hating coin, and battling misogeny with misandry doesn't help gender equality.

Guys wonder why they can't find a decent women..well maybe they show signs of misogeny and women avoid them like the plague.

Women wonder why they can't find a decent man...well maybe they show signs of misandry and men avoid them like the plague.


----------



## superodalisque

chicken legs said:


> Its one thing to express a form of Feminism ..protecting women, equality, etc. However, please don't confuse that with misandry..man-child, bumbling, "when FA's miss the mark"..etc... because that retards the Feminist movement. Showing hatred towards either gender doesn't help anyone. Misandry and misogeny are the two sides to gender hating coin, and battling misogeny with misandry doesn't help gender equality.
> 
> Guys wonder why they can't find a decent women..well maybe they show signs of misogeny and women avoid them like the plague.
> 
> Women wonder why they can't find a decent man...well maybe they show signs of misandry and men avoid them like the plague.



since when is not agreeing with someone or what they might do hating them? it think thats the core issue here. because people have strong opinions people take it personally as in "someone hates me". adults should be able to disagree and have differing perspectives and express themselves without hating each other or assuming they are being hated. people who are into that do need to get off the comp and get a life somewhere. that attitude has kept all of the groups here apart and has also made fat people go around thinking that everyone on the outside also actually hates them personally because they don't agree with their being fat. 

IMO approaching life that way is very immature no matter which side does it. i'd expect a teen who easily throws the word hate around to do that because they get a reaction. people really need to begin to get over the idea of "fitting in" and "being just like everyone else". we are individuals. we are different. we look different. we have different ideas. sometime we are going to clash. thats life. i would have thought that would be something to enjoy rather than the boring monotony of sameness people tend to crave. thats one of the things thats so exasperating about dims. the screaming need to be like everyone else. the chip on their shoulder that people seem to have here when people notice that they are different and comment. and also the constant looking for someone to accuse of hating them. i think thats one of the characteristics that cause all groups of people here to stay stuck in negativity about size weight and admiration if we spent as much energy assuming people liked us and needed us and our differences we'd probably be in pretty good shape and dims would be obsolete. no one really fits in. no one ever agrees with everything we do 100%. they never have and they ever will. focusing on that unrealistic need is what gets us to the point where we can't enjoy our lives or anything about it--especially those things that make us stand out. both sides here are waaay to defensive and hold waaay too many grudges.


----------



## escapist

Angel said:


> Maybe that's part of the problem. That rather than _embracing_ what is felt and _accepting_ what is felt as something *natural* or *normal*, it is viewed that feelings and what is felt need to be overcome or controlled.
> 
> 
> Rephrased above! (not meaning that actions shouldn't be controlled)



I know what you meant. You could be right, but often when a guy shows to much interest to early it can freak others out. I shouldn't even say guy, its happened to me coming form women too. The only good advice I ever got on this was, to learn to step back and view others based on values and other traits. Not just what you feeling or seeing. It can just be dang hard to do that when your looking at the embodiment of all you've ever physically desired..


----------



## mossystate

I am slightly amused that on my list of subscribed threads, the what happened to Kelligirl thread is listed right above this one.

Poetry.


----------



## LillyBBBW

mcbeth said:


> Angel - YES. I agree with you. You've made many great points in this thread. I doubt there are many women on here who have been posting for a while and haven't run into one of these basement-dwelling jackasses.
> 
> One additional thing I've been thinking about - it's not helpful when we take the specific segment of FAs that feel the need to come to an online community for camaraderie/support/etc. in their love of fat people to become representative of their entire gender, or even an entire group (like FAs). While certainly many of the FAs on this site are out living their lives unashamed, there are also a lot of FAs on here who specifically come to an anonymous online community because they ARE ashamed and want a place where they can express their desires for fat people without any anticipated backlash from their friends/family/society in general.
> 
> Lots more FAs, who are not part of any online fat community, are out there in the world dating and f**king fat people as part of their normal, open, daily lives (and yes, for you FAs on here that do that, it shows how those things are not always mutually exclusive).
> 
> But I think we sometimes talk as if the Dimensions FAs are representative of all FAs, while they are really just representative of a specific segment of FAs that choose to be part of a forum community like Dimensions; and I wonder whether certain FAs are more likely to make that choice than others, yknow?



^^ Yes, this. Angel you asked a question about the male response and I answered. My response hadn't a thing to do with your experiences, the severity, qualifying, disqualifying, invalidating, cross examining, ridiculing or anything other than a commentary on the blanketed form it took. I will repeat for clarity: *your experiences are not being questioned*. I've even had some of the same myself. You asked why whenever you speak about them there are FAs who respond defensively and I gave an answer according to what I could see from here. It's really that simple. This needn't be a battle. Go ahead. Keep reiterating that ALL the FAs you know give you this and all the FAs here gave you that. I don't care at all. You asked a question and I gave an observation, nothing more.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

I'm kind of digging this thread......


----------



## Victim

The old Dimensions is dead. I bashed it over the head with a frozen husky and polished it off with the last packet of instant mash.


----------



## msbard90

Victim said:


> The old Dimensions is dead. I bashed it over the head with a frozen husky and polished it off with the last packet of instant mash.



On a serious note, it is. Venturing back to my regular posting status after a 4 month hiatus, I learned that dimensions has changed in so many ways. First off, the revival of Hyde Park as one of the top forum boards was huge. Another thing I noticed is that an increasing number of females are starting to voice their opinion now more than ever. Women are starting to let some FA's know what kind of advances are too forward, and what realistic expectations are. Dimensions has become very much a vehicle for women's rights movement as it has for the fat acceptance movement. The reason I left the old dimensions is because there was too much f***ing drama. This site went through a revelation; all the moderator questioning and banned member drama etc diminished significantly. We are at an almost state of peace- if you will. (I'm not sure if that's ever possible on a forum as large and diverse as dims...)I think dims has made significant changes, and for the better.


----------



## KHayes666

msbard90 said:


> On a serious note, it is. Venturing back to my regular posting status after a 4 month hiatus, I learned that dimensions has changed in so many ways. First off, the revival of Hyde Park as one of the top forum boards was huge. Another thing I noticed is that an increasing number of females are starting to voice their opinion now more than ever. Women are starting to let some FA's know what kind of advances are too forward, and what realistic expectations are. Dimensions has become very much a vehicle for women's rights movement as it has for the fat acceptance movement. The reason I left the old dimensions is because there was too much f***ing drama. This site went through a revelation; all the moderator questioning and banned member drama etc diminished significantly. We are at an almost state of peace- if you will. (I'm not sure if that's ever possible on a forum as large and diverse as dims...)I think dims has made significant changes, and for the better.



Heh, you missed the "war" so to speak. Its over now and the right side won ;-).

In all seriousness things are changing for the better. Should stick around from now on lol


----------



## TraciJo67

KHayes666 said:


> Heh, you missed the "war" so to speak. Its over now and the right side won ;-).
> 
> In all seriousness things are changing for the better. Should stick around from now on lol


 
I'm curious as to what you feel you've won, Kevin. Or rather, what the "right" side was. I think that's a confusion point for a lot of people.


----------



## fatlane

The old Dimensions used to take forever to load on my 14.4 bps dial-up connection.


----------



## msbard90

KHayes666 said:


> Heh, you missed the "war" so to speak. Its over now and the right side won ;-).
> 
> In all seriousness things are changing for the better. Should stick around from now on lol



I left when I saw the enemy ships off in the distance. Trust me, I spotted a war a mile away.


----------



## escapist

msbard90 said:


> On a serious note, it is. Venturing back to my regular posting status after a 4 month hiatus, I learned that dimensions has changed in so many ways. First off, the revival of Hyde Park as one of the top forum boards was huge. Another thing I noticed is that an increasing number of females are starting to voice their opinion now more than ever. Women are starting to let some FA's know what kind of advances are too forward, and what realistic expectations are. *Dimensions has become very much a vehicle for women's rights movement as it has for the fat acceptance movement*. The reason I left the old dimensions is because there was too much f***ing drama. This site went through a revelation; all the moderator questioning and banned member drama etc diminished significantly. We are at an almost state of peace- if you will. (I'm not sure if that's ever possible on a forum as large and diverse as dims...)*I think dims has made significant changes, and for the better.*



Womens rights are all fine and good, but perhaps the concern should be for human rights? The site has been defined by the owner as a place for FA's and the people of size they admire. Gender race and such were left out on purpose. This place is equally important to the BHM's. Many whom of which felt like an FFA was a thing of pure fantasy. Sure I personally got that some women loved my mind, or my face, or my eyes, but my whole body? Many of the new BHM's on dims are experiencing the same thing. It seems now more than ever that new BHM's and SSBHM's are finding the site every week now. Size acceptance is a wonderful thing, but for many the tiny reality that there is just 1 person out there that would fantasize about their larger body is a dream come true.

Its funny how some of the BBW's seem to be hatting on the FA's, but BHM's want attention and affection so bad they are happy to even just be objectified. There is a bleed over that happens, when non-F/FA's post on the BHM section. Those who have fire in their eyes just at the site of the dynamic happening there. The hate, the bashing, and belittling of others begins. I've seen a trend leaning towards outright belittling of others who are not yet "one with the borg". There seems to be more concern with people wanting what they want, with utter disregard for the thoughts feelings and rights of others. There is a willingness to step on the toes and emotions of others who are not yet in line with "the program".

When does the need to be right and equal end? Is it quest for equality or a quest for vengeance? Is it quest to be right, or a quest to prove others wrong? Is it a game of social power, where people with small blacked hearts sit on a hill laughing at the masses that aren't cool enough to be "in their club"? Where is the equality in laughing and mocking others for their difference? I have seen the same people who tout the banner of equality make it a filthy rag, to be trodden under their feet, when it suits their need to be better than others.

None of us are perfect, none of us truly wise, none of us are blessed with self-imbued power to unequivocally right all the time. When does the scorn of others end? FA, BBW, FFA, BHM, we are all here for a reason, whatever that reason is, it doesn't give us the right to voice our disdain for others in such hateful ways on a forum that doesn't belong to us. We are the guest to this place, we have been invited to share our thoughts and experience with others. When we respect others, we share our vision of the world we dream about, and live in, without taking away from what is already theirs. Its the only way I see we can do it without "Conquest" or "Victory". This isn't a battlefield, its a forum. Its unfortunate that many have felt poked, bused, and outright attacked to the point of feeling injury and defeat.

I hope you are right and Dim's has made changes for the better. 




"_An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. _" - Mohandas Gandhi


----------



## msbard90

escapist said:


> Womens rights are all fine and good, but perhaps the concern should be for human rights? The site has been defined by the owner as a place for FA's and the people of size they admire. Gender race and such were left out on purpose. This place is equally important to the BHM's. Many whom of which felt like an FFA was a thing of pure fantasy. Sure I personally got that some women loved my mind, or my face, or my eyes, but my whole body? Many of the new BHM's on dims are experiencing the same thing. It seems now more than ever that new BHM's and SSBHM's are finding the site every week now. Size acceptance is a wonderful thing, but for many the tiny reality that there is just 1 person out there that would fantasize about their larger body is a dream come true.
> 
> Its funny how some of the BBW's seem to be hatting on the FA's, but BHM's want attention and affection so bad they are happy to even just be objectified. There is a bleed over that happens, when non-F/FA's post on the BHM section. Those who have fire in their eyes just at the site of the dynamic happening there. The hate, the bashing, and belittling of others begins. I've seen a trend leaning towards outright belittling of others who are not yet "one with the borg". There seems to be more concern with people wanting what they want, with utter disregard for the thoughts feelings and rights of others. There is a willingness to step on the toes and emotions of others who are not yet in line with "the program".
> 
> When does the need to be right and equal end? Is it quest for equality or a quest for vengeance? Is it quest to be right, or a quest to prove others wrong? Is it a game of social power, where people with small blacked hearts sit on a hill laughing at the masses that aren't cool enough to be "in their club"? Where is the equality in laughing and mocking others for their difference? I have seen the same people who tout the banner of equality make it a filthy rag, to be trodden under their feet, when it suits their need to be better than others.
> 
> None of us are perfect, none of us truly wise, none of us are blessed with self-imbued power to unequivocally right all the time. When does the scorn of others end? FA, BBW, FFA, BHM, we are all here for a reason, whatever that reason is, it doesn't give us the right to voice our disdain for others in such hateful ways on a forum that doesn't belong to us. We are the guest to this place, we have been invited to share our thoughts and experience with others. When we respect others, we share our vision of the world we dream about, and live in, without taking away from what is already theirs. Its the only way I see we can do it without "Conquest" or "Victory". This isn't a battlefield, its a forum. Its unfortunate that many have felt poked, bused, and outright attacked to the point of feeling injury and defeat.
> 
> I hope you are right and Dim's has made changes for the better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "_An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. _" - Mohandas Gandhi



I mentioned it from a feminist point of view because I am a female, and I mainly read posts by females discussing womens issues. I do admit I am ignorant for the most part to the BHM side of things, and maybe a little lurking in their area would do me some good and open up my mind a little. Good post.


----------



## escapist

msbard90 said:


> I mentioned it from a feminist point of view because I am a female, and I mainly read posts by females discussing womens issues. I do admit I am ignorant for the most part to the BHM side of things, and maybe a little lurking in their area would do me some good and open up my mind a little. Good post.



I know what you mean. It wasn't until my BBW-FFA girlfriend started telling me about other post and things going on the board that I even started to look outside the BHM/FFA forum. She is right too, there are tons of interesting parallels as well as complete flip opposites for the BHM's and BBW's. I'm sure the same goes for the FA's and FFA's.


----------



## Angel

escapist said:


> We are the guest to this place, we have been invited to share our thoughts and experience with others.



Yeah, and we have all had different experiences and have different thoughts.

In Jay's post he asked _what has happened to Dimensions_.

What's happened to Dimensions is that sometimes when we do share our thoughts or our own experiences they get dissected and picked apart to the extent that we feel pushed so far into a corner that we have to defend ourselves or worse we end up feeling ripped apart much like how rape victims are sometimes made to feel when the insinuation is that the rape was their fault.

Instead of taking the time to understand why someone feels as they do it's so much easier to instantly post a rash comment. Instead of taking the time to formulate a question which may lead to actual discussion, assumptions are made. Instead of trying to understand that we come from various walks of life, we are expected to all think alike and deal with issues in the same manner. Instead of appreciating someone for what they try to bring to the table to share or even for their effort or attempt to do so, they are made to feel like their participation isn't wanted within a thread. (Like you said escapist, _made to feel like they don't fit in_)


note to self. reply to the two men who inquired about the objectification I experienced... and figure out how to fit it in within this thread


----------



## escapist

Angel said:


> Yeah, and we have all had different experiences and have different thoughts.
> 
> In Jay's post he asked _what has happened to Dimensions_.
> 
> What's happened to Dimensions is that sometimes when we do share our thoughts or our own experiences they get dissected and picked apart to the extent that we feel pushed so far into a corner that we have to defend ourselves or worse we end up feeling ripped apart much like how rape victims are sometimes made to feel when the insinuation is that the rape was their fault.
> 
> Instead of taking the time to understand why someone feels as they do it's so much easier to instantly post a rash comment. Instead of taking the time to formulate a question which may lead to actual discussion, assumptions are made. Instead of trying to understand that we come from various walks of life, we are expected to all think alike and deal with issues in the same manner. Instead of appreciating someone for what they try to bring to the table to share or even for their effort or attempt to do so, they are made to feel like their participation isn't wanted within a thread. (Like you said escapist, _made to feel like they don't fit in_)
> 
> 
> note to self. reply to the two men who inquired about the objectification I experienced... and figure out how to fit it in within this thread



Well said.


----------



## Renaissance Woman

This is an old thread now, but it seemed appropriate.

To answer Jay's original question, I left Dims a long time ago because it no longer felt like a safe space for me. The obvious bashers who posted were banned, but I felt as though I could no longer trust that all of those who were allowed to post had my best interests as a fat girl at heart, or even had prurient interest in the fact that I'm a fat girl. I had too much doubt about why some posters were here, and I wasn't interested in being a part of a sociology experiment without my consent, or helping others boost their self-esteem at the expense of my own.

This past weekend I had the pleasure of meeting steve-aka and debz-aka, and I was reminded what kept me around Dims after the initial shock wore off: the mean IQ appeared to be significantly higher than other sites. I don't believe I'm back now, as I don't know how things may have changed in my absence. I will reserve judgment for now.


----------



## Lovelyone

Sandie_Zitkus said:


> I like Dimensions - it's a place I think of as home. And I think there are quite a few others here who feel the same way.


 
Sandie--I am late for the party, but...I feel this way too. I've felt like this place was a second home for me. When I first found dims it was like seeing that light in the tunnel and knowing that I truly was not alone in how I feel, what I deal with, and how I can overcome the way that a lot of society treats me as an SSBBW. 
I liked that I could come here and read postings from others who were going through similar things as I. But in all honestly..at times I feel as if I don't belong here. I've battled the bullies, done my time in the "Terri is being banned for the time being" green room, I've done the "I just wont post on those threads" thing, I've avoided some parts of these forums all-together cos I just dont feel as if I have a lot to offer in those sections (Hyde Park for one). I, myself stopped posting for a while cos I felt like there wasn't an commaraderie here anymore. A break away from here helped me to see that change is good. Maybe its not the change that you are looking for, but there ARE good things about this site, there ARE good and helpful people, thoughts, ideas, and friendships that have been built here. 
I've been a member of dims for quite a while and I've noticed people leaving, giving up, taking time off the forums. I've seen newbies--who wanted nothing more than to find their niche in the world--get scared away by flamers, and I've seen newbies post with wild abandon after they realize (like I did) that this is a place where tey CAN do that. I've taken delight (especially lately) in seeing an influx of new blood into the forums cos with new people posting, there will be new ideas, new questions, thoughts, and comments. I can see that Dims has changed..but I dont think that its all negative. With progress you will have setbacks.


----------



## Lovelyone

chicken legs said:


> I see alot of bbw's who confuse the fa trait with the rest of the person. If the person is controlling and dominate then he will be a controlling dominate fa. If a person is selfish, then they are going to be a selfish fa. If a guy is caring, then he is going to be a caring fa. If he is a gentlemen, then he is going to be a gentlemenly fa. If a person has issues with being in a serious relationship then..well...you get the point.
> 
> 
> and you can subsitute FA/FFA with BBW/SSBBW or BHM/SSBHM.


 
There are always two sides to that story. Having a "trait" does not excuse poor behavior.
ON THE OTHER HAND...*I* see a lot of FA's who regard ssbbw's as only a big pile of fat to have sex with. That doesn't make it right. I notice that a lot of (NOT ALL) FA's want to check off that magical number in their little black books. "I f*cked a 500+ lb fat chick"...CHECK. Or they get to tell their feeder friends "oh my GF/WIFE/ whatever gained 100 lbs last month. She's well on her way to 1,000 lbs...yippee!!!" There is no respect for the person underneath all the fat, as long as they get what they want.


----------



## Russ2d

> What happened to the old Dimensions?



Well, let's see, I will take a stab at it- basically it's become a haven for drama and offense queens who have a problem with men, FAs or not- but don't worry there is plenty of nonsense left over for women, a great many who have been jumped on so often that they've either left or no longer post.

If I was in control of Dimensions i would forever ban half the people just in this thread.

It's unfortunate, but as it is I would NEVER introduce a new FA or fat woman/girl, to Dimensions, never. This place is guaranteed to lower your spirits or piss you off, and it no longer fullfills its' objective. A positive oasis for fat people and their admirers, fat acceptance. Yeah right, fat acceptance has become "size" acceptance and the positive atmosphere in my opinion died about 2 years ago. Conrad really needs to overhaul this place or just dump it altogether.


----------



## MizzSnakeBite

Russ2d said:


> Well, let's see, I will take a stab at it- basically it's become a haven for drama and offense queens who have a problem with men, FAs or not- but don't worry there is plenty of nonsense left over for women, a great many who have been jumped on so often that they've either left or no longer post.
> 
> If I was in control of Dimensions i would forever ban half the people just in this thread.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but as it is I would NEVER introduce a new FA or fat woman/girl, to Dimensions, never. This place is guaranteed to lower your spirits or piss you off, and it no longer fullfills its' objective. A positive oasis for fat people and their admirers, fat acceptance. Yeah right, fat acceptance has become "size" acceptance and the positive atmosphere in my opinion died about 2 years ago. Conrad really needs to overhaul this place or just dump it altogether.



OK, I'll bite. Why ya here, then?

Oh, and the "drama and offense queens who have a problem with men," part, lets add, "drama and offense queens and kings who have a problem with men and/or women."


----------



## Grundig QD40

MizzSnakeBite said:


> Oh, and the "drama and offense queens who have a problem with men," part, lets add, "drama and offense queens and kings who have a problem with men and/or women."



Politicaly correct is good


----------



## Dromond

*grabs a bucket of popcorn*

This should be quite a show.


----------



## Grundig QD40

Lovelyone said:


> Sandie--I am late for the party, but...I feel this way too. I've felt like this place was a second home for me. When I first found dims it was like seeing that light in the tunnel and knowing that I truly was not alone in how I feel, what I deal with, and how I can overcome the way that a lot of society treats me as an SSBBW.
> I liked that I could come here and read postings from others who were going through similar things as I. But in all honestly..at times I feel as if I don't belong here. I've battled the bullies, done my time in the "Terri is being banned for the time being" green room, I've done the "I just wont post on those threads" thing, I've avoided some parts of these forums all-together cos I just dont feel as if I have a lot to offer in those sections (Hyde Park for one). I, myself stopped posting for a while cos I felt like there wasn't an commaraderie here anymore. A break away from here helped me to see that change is good. Maybe its not the change that you are looking for, but there ARE good things about this site, there ARE good and helpful people, thoughts, ideas, and friendships that have been built here.
> I've been a member of dims for quite a while and I've noticed people leaving, giving up, taking time off the forums. I've seen newbies--who wanted nothing more than to find their niche in the world--get scared away by flamers, and I've seen newbies post with wild abandon after they realize (like I did) that this is a place where tey CAN do that. I've taken delight (especially lately) in seeing an influx of new blood into the forums cos with new people posting, there will be new ideas, new questions, thoughts, and comments. I can see that Dims has changed..but I dont think that its all negative. With progress you will have setbacks.



Well said.


----------



## LovelyLiz

Grundig QD40 said:


> Politicaly correct is good



Or just plain "correct," as in this case.


----------



## littlefairywren

Russ2d said:


> Well, let's see, I will take a stab at it- basically it's become a haven for drama and offense queens who have a problem with men, FAs or not- but don't worry there is plenty of nonsense left over for women, a great many who have been jumped on so often that they've either left or no longer post.
> 
> If I was in control of Dimensions i would forever ban half the people just in this thread.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but as it is I would NEVER introduce a new FA or fat woman/girl, to Dimensions, never. This place is guaranteed to lower your spirits or piss you off, and it no longer fullfills its' objective. A positive oasis for fat people and their admirers, fat acceptance. Yeah right, fat acceptance has become "size" acceptance and the positive atmosphere in my opinion died about 2 years ago. Conrad really needs to overhaul this place or just dump it altogether.



Ah, no! I am neither a drama or offense queen and I sure don't have a problem with men lol. But this is still a haven for me. Sure there is drama - if you search it out, but I don't. And yet Dims has brought me comfort, a place to feel accepted, and I have met some incredibly wonderful women and men.

Without this place I would never have the confidence I do now, or a feeling of belonging. I guess the point is, you get what you put in. It's not for everyone, but it does work for a lot of us.


----------



## Heyyou

mcbeth said:


> Or just plain "correct," as in this case.



?



Angel said:


> Yeah, and we have all had different experiences and have different thoughts.
> 
> In Jay's post he asked _what has happened to Dimensions_.
> 
> What's happened to Dimensions is that sometimes when we do share our thoughts or our own experiences they get dissected and picked apart to the extent that we feel pushed so far into a corner that we have to defend ourselves or worse we end up feeling ripped apart much like how rape victims are sometimes made to feel when the insinuation is that the rape was their fault.
> 
> Instead of taking the time to understand why someone feels as they do it's so much easier to instantly post a rash comment. Instead of taking the time to formulate a question which may lead to actual discussion, assumptions are made. Instead of trying to understand that we come from various walks of life, we are expected to all think alike and deal with issues in the same manner. Instead of appreciating someone for what they try to bring to the table to share or even for their effort or attempt to do so, they are made to feel like their participation isn't wanted within a thread. (Like you said escapist, _made to feel like they don't fit in_)
> 
> 
> note to self. reply to the two men who inquired about the objectification I experienced... and figure out how to fit it in within this thread



Agreed.

I have No opinion good or bad. It is neutral. It has been covered well by other posters.


----------



## Angel

Russ2d said:


> Well, let's see, I will take a stab at it- basically it's become a haven for drama and offense queens who have a problem with men, FAs or not- but don't worry there is plenty of nonsense left over for women, a great many who have been jumped on so often that they've either left or no longer post.
> 
> If I was in control of Dimensions i would forever ban half the people just in this thread.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but as it is I would NEVER introduce a new FA or fat woman/girl, to Dimensions, never. This place is guaranteed to lower your spirits or piss you off, and it no longer fullfills its' objective. A positive oasis for fat people and their admirers, fat acceptance. Yeah right, fat acceptance has become "size" acceptance and the positive atmosphere in my opinion died about 2 years ago. Conrad really needs to overhaul this place or just dump it altogether.




Whom would you ban? Without naming names what exactly did anyone post within this thread that makes them ban worthy in your eyes? Is it a character flaw? Is it that they view things differently? Is it that their life experiences have been different from yours? Is it that the people that come here come from various backgrounds and may not be here seeking the same thing as others? Is it that they are not as enlightened as you are? Is it that some are not afraid or ashamed to speak out or speak up when they see someone being mistreated or when they have been mistreated themselves? Is it that both men and women are saying see women as women first and as objects of desire secondly? Is it that there are now some very outspoken and intelligent men who not only stand up for women but also possess the ability to articulate much more than a simple "post more pics" or "how much do you weigh?" or" what are your stats?" comment? Is it that many women come here to interact with other women and not necessarily for the purpose of pleasing men?

Dimensions Forums have changed a lot since the inception of the new forums. There have been a lot of growing pains. Sometimes people have felt that they have had to fight for what they needed or to just be heard. I for one am glad that our individual voices are heard. Things don't always go the way we want, but that is life. Individually we learn to adapt and cling to the positive or to what works; and we learn to overlook what doesn't appeal to us personally. We befriend those whose opinions we value or whose character we admire and we avoid those whom we do not get along with or we learn to interact in a respectful manner even if we don't see eye to eye. I guess it's a lot like life, eventually we come to realize that everyone isn't on earth to cater to our needs and desires. We eventually realize that we are not the center of the universe and that the world doesn't revolve around us. We realize that we alone are responsible for our own happiness and contentment and when we do come to that realization we stop expecting others to be what *we* expect them to be and instead allow them to be who they really are without passing judgment and without having requirements. Maybe we need a bit more of that _live and let live_ attitude around here. After all, acceptance is what we all seek. Acceptance doesn't come with terms. We don't get to determine what kind of acceptance someone else is seeking. Only they do.


----------



## Angel

Dromond said:


> *grabs a bucket of popcorn*
> 
> This should be quite a show.



I think you'll need more than a bucket of popcorn.


----------



## Dromond

Ok, then.

*grabs an industrial sized popcorn popper with 500 pounds of popcorn kernals*

Anybody for popcorn?


----------



## mossystate

* grabs the fresh bucket of man parts I just chopped up and baked, and sprinkles them with Italian parsley...cuz garnish is important *

:eat1:


----------



## Dromond

That's not popcorn, Mossy.


----------



## Angel

Dromond said:


> Ok, then.
> 
> *grabs an industrial sized popcorn popper with 500 pounds of popcorn kernals*
> 
> Anybody for popcorn?



500 pounds of popcorn kernals = how many needed pounds of fattening butter??? 

*hands you a shovel*. It might come in handy.


----------



## mossystate

Sure it is...Orvilla Manhaterbacher. You stick with your snack, and leave me to mine. * spits out a bit of gristle *


----------



## Angel

mossystate said:


> * grabs the fresh bucket of man parts I just chopped up and baked, and sprinkles them with Italian parsley...cuz garnish is important *
> 
> :eat1:



_*Baked???*_ You ought to know tis better _skewered_ and bbq'd!


----------



## Dromond

Angel said:


> 500 pounds of popcorn kernals = how many needed pounds of fattening butter???
> 
> *hands you a shovel*. It might come in handy.



No shovel needed, this is the 21st century. It's all automated. Push button style, baby! 

PS: We have a truckload of 55 gallon drums full of liquid fake movie theater 'butter.' It pays to think ahead.


----------



## mossystate

Angel said:


> _*Baked???*_ You ought to know tis better skewered and bbq'd!



I skewer...then remove from skewers and bake....no bbq for me. It causes indigestion.

* belch *


----------



## Dromond

(Oh oh, here she comes) watch out boy, she'll chew you up
(Oh oh, here she comes) she's a maneater


----------



## Angel

Dromond said:


> No shovel needed, this is the 21st century. It's all automated. Push button style, baby!
> 
> PS: We have a truckload of 55 gallon drums full of liquid fake movie theater 'butter.' It pays to think ahead.



Sorry, I've been fantasizing about the "this is the 21st century. It's all automated. Push button style, baby!" If only Ty Pennington could make that fantasy come true! 


Ok, we'll let you pass with that liquid fake movie theater 'butter' but you better have lots of candies and sweets and carbonated beverages! And we wanna go out for ice cream when this is over!


----------



## Angel

mossystate said:


> I skewer...then remove from skewers and bake....no bbq for me. It causes indigestion.
> 
> * belch *



aww Sorry for your aversion to bbq. The fresh man parts chopped up reminded me of Idgie and Sipsey. 


Careful with that belching. It's not ladylike... and it turns some folk on you know.


----------



## dragorat

*I look at Dimensions as family.Some things will change some will stay the same.Some members stay ...some leave & as most families do it may grow with new members.We are never ALL gonna agree on everything or like every one.That's life.I know for a fact there are people here I like that others can't stand but that's what make life & this site interesting.As I tell folks who ask me "How are you?",I say Abnormal because if I was normal I'd be like everyone else..lol.I love my "Family" (Of course there are some I'd like to love more... )*


----------



## thirtiesgirl

Pass over a toe, Mossy. When I'm munching on men, I do so love the little parts.


----------



## joswitch

thirtiesgirl said:


> Pass over a toe, Mossy. When I'm munching on men, I do so love the little parts.



Somewhere on teh interwebs, right now, a vore fetishist is fapping...


----------



## thirtiesgirl

More power to them.


----------



## Dmitra

joswitch said:


> Somewhere on teh interwebs, right now, a vore fetishist is fapping...



Must . . . not . . . google . . . vore!!


----------



## Littleghost

mossystate said:


> * grabs the fresh bucket of man parts I just chopped up and baked, and sprinkles them with Italian parsley...cuz garnish is important *
> 
> :eat1:



You keep them in a _bucket??_ How unappetizing.


----------



## Green Eyed Fairy

Speaking of BBQ.....I had a pulled pork bbq sandwich yesterday. It had cole slaw on it and I looked at some of the menfolk walking by whilst I ate it.

I'm sure this is relevant.


----------



## Dromond

Green Eyed Fairy said:


> Speaking of BBQ.....I had a pulled pork bbq sandwich yesterday. It had cole slaw on it and I looked at some of the menfolk walking by whilst I ate it.
> 
> I'm sure this is relevant.


----------



## chicken legs

Lovelyone said:


> There are always two sides to that story. Having a "trait" does not excuse poor behavior.
> ON THE OTHER HAND...*I* see a lot of FA's who regard ssbbw's as only a big pile of fat to have sex with. That doesn't make it right. I notice that a lot of (NOT ALL) FA's want to check off that magical number in their little black books. "I f*cked a 500+ lb fat chick"...CHECK. Or they get to tell their feeder friends "oh my GF/WIFE/ whatever gained 100 lbs last month. She's well on her way to 1,000 lbs...yippee!!!" There is no respect for the person underneath all the fat, as long as they get what they want.



i got rep from a post on here and decided to see if its alive and going..lol

but to reply...

Replace fat with boob size, lack of fat, skin color, millionairs..etc...people are callous thats reality. I have five brothers and 2 older sisters and none of them showed a hint of emotional connection with the people they were with until they hit their forties. The thing is some people never find emotional maturity. I noticed those who develop their spiritual side seem to exhibit warmth to those around them (or those born sensitive to others), but don't wait and hope they do because you are wasting your time.


----------



## Aswani

Chicken Legs, from my observation of our financially-priviledged Hollywood celebrities, emotional maturity NEVER sets in at ANY age. Many of our most esteemed actors in their 40s and 50s look as if they shop for their wives from a Victoria's Secret catalog. OK, so maybe Nicholas Cage's 27-year-old Asian hottie wife is a Shakespeare scholar, we men are still very, VERY much driven by the visual attraction and that's arguably the main reason we pursue the women we end up with. If you're a 500lb woman or a 75lb woman, it's a very good chance it's because of your visual make-up. But bear in mind if it leads to a great and long-term relationship, it's because love and adoration have come in to play somewhere early in the relationship.


----------



## chunkeymonkey

Where has everyone flocked to?


----------



## superodalisque

chunkeymonkey said:


> Where has everyone flocked to?



to anywhere they felt free to have their own opinion mainly. there are tons of groups now.


----------



## Tad

superodalisque said:


> to anywhere they felt free to have their own opinion mainly. there are tons of groups now.



That, to my mind, is not always a step forward. You get small groups of people of like mind, which is great for supporting your opinions, but not so good for challenging them.

I've learned far more, in the time I've spent on Dimensions, from posters that I didn't particularly agree with and/or like, than I have from kindred spirits (much though I appreciate encountering those latter).


----------



## AuntHen

Tad said:


> That, to my mind, is not always a step forward. You get small groups of people of like mind, which is great for supporting your opinions, but not so good for challenging them.
> 
> I've learned far more, in the time I've spent on Dimensions, from posters that I didn't particularly agree with and/or like, than I have from kindred spirits (much though I appreciate encountering those latter).




agreed! Do you want to go form a new little group since we agree? haha 
I also feel that instead of only seeing what Dimensions ISN'T anymore, it's better to just make the best of what it IS! Or stick around and try to make it better?

There are new and interesting (add weird, funny, silly, cool, intelligent, etc.) people that are here right NOW! Sometimes we get out of something what we put into it.


----------



## Tad

to expand on my previous post at tedious length.....

Years ago, when these boards had only one or two forums, Facebook wasnt a thing yet and Yahoo Groups were still kind of snazzy and new, I ran a yahoo group for a couple of years aimed at FA who were in long term relationships. It was intended as a safe place where guys could admit what they were feeling with regard to fat stuff, without being judged for it. A goodly number of people signed up (IIRC somewhere over 70), many enthused what a great idea this was and they were so happy to have such a place. And then.it sputtered out. Basically the conversation would go either:

a)	Yep, Im married to a BBW who is happy being fat and with me liking that responded to by variations of You lucky dog
b)	Well, Im married to a BBW, but she doesnt really like being big. I wish I could be more open about how sexy I think she is responded to by variations of I feel ya.
c)	I married a thinner woman who I really, really, love. She gained 10 pounds over the holidays and I loved the slight bit of roundness and hoped shed keep on gaining, but now shes losing it. Of course Im supporting her, but its really hard. Responded to by variations of Yah, that sucks, hate when that happens.

I tried various things to get more conversation to happen, but ultimately came to accept that while it was nice to have a place where you accepted--and it may well be that for most of us there can be times where that is what we need mostoverall that just didnt make for a place that was interesting or going to lead to much personal growth. 

Right around the same time I heard a story on a public square somewhere in Europe (I think Denmark, but not sure anymore), which had been set up to be safe, open, attractive.and it was almost not used by anyone, and because it was empty at night it actually became dangerous. They revised it to put in less even paving stones, to have lights and sounds that would turn on and off at random intervals, and made the paths through it less straight and easy..and people started using the square far more. When it was so easy, it wasnt interesting, when there was some challenge then suddenly people enjoyed it more.

That kind of cemented my thinking, that the best web forums are actually the ones with warts. That having a broad audience, having some fights, having variations in cultural and ideological view point, having moderators who are imperfect, having management that may not be completely dispassionately open minded.. that these will actually keep a place more interesting, even if they are all flaws under certain light.


----------



## wrestlingguy

I think for the most part, the old Dimensions as the veterans know it is still here.

With that said, the dynamics of the individual boards will always change, based on who is active at any given time. There was a period of a few years where I avoided posting, simply because there was a preponderance of douchenozzles responding to posts, and disrupting dialogue and derailing threads simply because they felt their agenda was the only one.

People come and go, and the boards will reflect that. I've always felt that segregating the various subsets within our community on the boards would create small groups in each that would issue their stamp of approval to each other, and view any challenge to that micro group's thought(s) are looked down on. Basically, I'm endorsing what Tad said in his post.

I think that while participation by REAL, contributing members is down, this is a great time to re-think how we discuss things here. I've learned during the time I was away that discussion between opposing ideas only means you should disagree with the idea, not the person presenting the idea, unless they do it in a disrespectful manner themselves. I find that by doing so, I leave myself more open to changing my mind on subjects, since I'm not tainted because I don't like the person in the discussion. 

I hope that is something all of us can consider moving forward.


----------



## waldo

Tad said:


> That, to my mind, is not always a step forward. You get small groups of people of like mind, which is great for supporting your opinions, but not so good for challenging them.
> 
> I've learned far more, in the time I've spent on Dimensions, from posters that I didn't particularly agree with and/or like, than I have from kindred spirits (much though I appreciate encountering those latter).



Tad, quit being so wise, you're making the rest of us look bad 

I agree with your thoughts, specifically the best forum is often going to be an ugly, wart-covered mess. But out of that quagmire can come profound revelations for those who enter with a truly open mind. In contrast, a group of people 'preaching to the choir' wouldn't seem to achieve a lot other than maybe camaraderie.

I actually went back and read through this entire 250+ post thread and it was quite a trip. I agree with those who said that Jay's portrayal of a time when the Dimensions boards were somehow more harmonious may be a little off-base. BUT as Jay wrote so eloquently:

" It’s painful to see, because there aren’t really any “sides.” We are the convergence of ideas, we are co-conspirers in a vision, we are inevitably very much in the same boat. When one of us is demonized, we’re all demonized. When we’re impatient with one person, we’re short-changing the whole community.

What is more powerful than seeing a community that supports one another? What is better than the thin world looking in and seeing a diverse group of people using the internet to powerfully edify each other? We can and should be the model for why fat and fat sexuality ought not to scare the world. We are beautiful--we have to see that in each other, and to be that for ourselves and the generations that come after us. "

I guess that is part of why I keep being drawn back here. As an older FA who has gone through 'coming out' and married a fat woman, I would like to think I have something useful to say that may benefit the young people reading these discussions. And yes, a little camaraderie for someone who is an oddball (as FAs continue to be perceived in general society) is another potential benefit of participation here.


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## Jack Secret

I have noticed that so many of our long-timers Seem to have become cynical, condescending, arrogant, and I guess pretentious at times.

Jay's original post way back in 2010 Seems to be relevant again in 2013. I guess Dimensions goes through this In waves. It's fascinating in a way.


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## chunkeymonkey

Yes very fascinating indeed. I fell away from dimensions for over a year and decided to get back on and give it another whirl. It has been good to see posts from a lot of you and I got curious about some of the others that seemed to be MIA. Yes things do come in waves but lucky for you guys I'm a dare devil and will try to ride the waves.


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## superodalisque

Tad said:


> That, to my mind, is not always a step forward. You get small groups of people of like mind, which is great for supporting your opinions, but not so good for challenging them.
> 
> I've learned far more, in the time I've spent on Dimensions, from posters that I didn't particularly agree with and/or like, than I have from kindred spirits (much though I appreciate encountering those latter).



i don't think it's a great idea to cloister off together either. it makes people get more out of touch with the opinions of others. initially when dims had different boards i thought it was okay but in hindsight think it would have been much better if people were allowed to slog it out--in a polite way on one board. 

from a woman's point of view i think the biggest issue is the sense that for some the _only_ reason for women to be here was so some can scratch an entitled itch. a whole lot of my conscious male and female friends just didn't want to deal with or be associated with that anymore. they felt it was enabling.

it also didn't help that there was a lack of ethics respect or appreciation when it came to pix stealing either of women who work hard for their money like web models or by women who were just trying to be proud and share. but that happened too because of the tolerance of that very same entitled attitude--that you could steal what someone else worked for/created or violate the trust of people who were generous enough to share themselves openly for no pay at all. 

so as predicted the most active portion of the boards is now even moreso than ever the paysite. if people want it to be more than that they need to start thinking about things they do that discourage so much of the other that is available. the numbers pretty much show how out of balance it is. 

porn is fine but relying totally on it is a mistake. it will end up sucking all of the life out of everything else if it is the only mentality that is emphasized because the interest in that kind of porn is slowly but surely dying off--which is why porn in general is becoming more and more extreme. they know the market is dying out and the only thing they can do is try to create another taboo or another high, so they'll go further and further until they completely turn nearly everyone off. it's too common and it's getting to be too old school. 

everything has it's place but there are always going to be more active porn links somewhere--they are everywhere. and somebody is bound to attract a larger audience for porn eventually since it's so common. porn is putting itself out of business anyway. heck porn is free. all you really have to do these days is go to a fat dating site or approach someone at any of the hundreds of fat venues and people are willing to do everything you want at no cost live and in living color online _and_ in person. relying so heavily on porn (pun intended)  alone to keep it going is a big mistake.


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## LillyBBBW

wrestlingguy said:


> I think for the most part, the old Dimensions as the veterans know it is still here.
> 
> With that said, the dynamics of the individual boards will always change, based on who is active at any given time. There was a period of a few years where I avoided posting, simply because there was a preponderance of douchenozzles responding to posts, and disrupting dialogue and derailing threads simply because they felt their agenda was the only one.
> 
> People come and go, and the boards will reflect that. I've always felt that segregating the various subsets within our community on the boards would create small groups in each that would issue their stamp of approval to each other, and view any challenge to that micro group's thought(s) are looked down on. Basically, I'm endorsing what Tad said in his post.
> 
> I think that while participation by REAL, contributing members is down, this is a great time to re-think how we discuss things here. I've learned during the time I was away that discussion between opposing ideas only means you should disagree with the idea, not the person presenting the idea, unless they do it in a disrespectful manner themselves. I find that by doing so, I leave myself more open to changing my mind on subjects, since I'm not tainted because I don't like the person in the discussion.
> 
> I hope that is something all of us can consider moving forward.



I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons I disappeared is because it got repetative. I suppose things go in cycles as another poster suggested but if you've been here long enough each wave starts to sound and smell exactly like the one before it and it becomes boring. There are only so many times one can have the same conversation over and over with predictable results from the same people that you can pretty much time your watch to. Eventually it comes time to move on.


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## superodalisque

Tad said:


> to expand on my previous post at tedious length.....
> 
> Years ago, when these boards had only one or two forums, Facebook wasn’t a thing yet and Yahoo Groups were still kind of snazzy and new, I ran a yahoo group for a couple of years aimed at FA who were in long term relationships. It was intended as a safe place where guys could admit what they were feeling with regard to fat stuff, without being judged for it. A goodly number of people signed up (IIRC somewhere over 70), many enthused what a great idea this was and they were so happy to have such a place. And then….it sputtered out. Basically the conversation would go either:
> 
> a)	“Yep, I’m married to a BBW who is happy being fat and with me liking that” responded to by variations of “You lucky dog”
> b)	“Well, I’m married to a BBW, but she doesn’t really like being big. I wish I could be more open about how sexy I think she is” responded to by variations of “I feel ya.”
> c)	“I married a thinner woman who I really, really, love. She gained 10 pounds over the holidays and I loved the slight bit of roundness and hoped she’d keep on gaining, but now she’s losing it. Of course I’m supporting her, but its really hard.” Responded to by variations of “Yah, that sucks, hate when that happens.”
> 
> I tried various things to get more conversation to happen, but ultimately came to accept that while it was nice to have a place where you accepted--and it may well be that for most of us there can be times where that is what we need most—overall that just didn’t make for a place that was interesting or going to lead to much personal growth.
> 
> Right around the same time I heard a story on a public square somewhere in Europe (I think Denmark, but not sure anymore), which had been set up to be safe, open, attractive….and it was almost not used by anyone, and because it was empty at night it actually became dangerous. They revised it to put in less even paving stones, to have lights and sounds that would turn on and off at random intervals, and made the paths through it less straight and easy…..and people started using the square far more. When it was so easy, it wasn’t interesting, when there was some challenge then suddenly people enjoyed it more.
> 
> That kind of cemented my thinking, that the best web forums are actually the ones with warts. That having a broad audience, having some fights, having variations in cultural and ideological view point, having moderators who are imperfect, having management that may not be completely dispassionately open minded….. that these will actually keep a place more interesting, even if they are all flaws under certain light.



this was a really wonderful post. and i think you hit on a point about people expecting perfection. perfection _is_ boring. bumps in the road and rocky spots are where we test our metal and grow as people. it's also the contrast with the smooth times that help us to appreciate them more. a good convo becomes so much more meaningful in the middle of all of the confusion and disagreement. and when the light bulb does go off and we can finally start understanding each other's points even a little no matter how different they might be that is a beautiful thing.

i don't think i'm much different from anyone else. i love being supportive but not at my own personal expense as a fat person. it's great that people attracted to fat folk accept one another and have that commonality but the flip side of it is that when it is limited it can exclude some kind of variance in human emotions coming from the object of that attraction. that is really problematic because absolutely everyone desires to be able to be fully who they are. no one should understand that better than people who are attracted to fat folk. i shouldn't have to accept things that distress me over what makes people who like what i look like happy.

sometimes talk gets very two dimensional (no pun intended) but as with anything good it's best to round it out not only should people attracted to fat folk find commonality with each other but they also need to work hard toward finding commonality or at least understanding toward the people they are attracted to. attraction is pointless if you don't actually understand or appear to care about what and how the people you're attracted to feel. when it gets to that point you start getting what we sometimes get here-- a dependence on porn and relationship surrogates who say what you like mainly because that's how they are getting paid and are playing a role. i really sadly wonder if it is truly a confidence builder for anyone to put themselves in a situation where they to have to pay for _all_ of their satisfying interactions with the people they find attractive or find a fat person who is not yet fully confident enough yet to stand up or even fully know yet what they really feel, because they've ( those attracted to fat folk) have become so misaligned with what is real. 

a lot of "admirers" are still here even if some are underground and only looking at the paysite and pix without really interacting in other ways at all but as Russell noted on another thread a whole lot of the unpaid objects of that admiration have fled wholesale having given up hope of personal and truly sensitive interactions. i'll never quite understand why people would want to be the fat community version of the child with the pork chop around it's neck for puppies to want to play with it. 

admiration is about looking at something from afar. there is a distance and a separateness in the word. what i think a lot of people want is a true coming together and real mutual support. but you can't have that is there is basic inequality and misunderstanding in the relationship. i understand people wanting to keep their fantasy life intact but there are ways to do that without making other people feel like non persons.


----------



## superodalisque

Tad said:


> That, to my mind, is not always a step forward. You get small groups of people of like mind, which is great for supporting your opinions, but not so good for challenging them.
> 
> I've learned far more, in the time I've spent on Dimensions, from posters that I didn't particularly agree with and/or like, than I have from kindred spirits (much though I appreciate encountering those latter).



i also wanted to add that if you feel you aren't being heard at all or are being dismissed out of hand and policed against and banned or silenced for your opinions it's a perfectly viable choice.


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## waldo

Jack Secret said:


> I have noticed that so many of our long-timers Seem to have become cynical, condescending, arrogant, and I guess pretentious at times.
> 
> Jay's original post way back in 2010 Seems to be relevant again in 2013. I guess Dimensions goes through this In waves. It's fascinating in a way.



This pretty much sums up the problems that result in a general failure to achieve significant open, productive communications on Dims. Condescension and pretentiousness do not engender a widely participated and mutually satisfactory dialog between the sexes. 

One source of communication problems seems to stem from the BAD behavior of a significant number of 'FAs' online and IRL (such as at the BBW social events). So as a result, we have a form of 'profiling' where those who appear and self-identify as FAs are assumed guilty until they somehow manage to prove themselves innocent. In contrast, 'BBWs' are automatically given the benefit of the doubt out of the gate. And people wonder why so many of the guys pass on active participation in the discussion boards

Just one example of the hypocrisy that prevails here: when guys decline to provide a picture of themselves in their avatar or profile they are criticized for 'hiding their identity'. But when the women do likewise, it is explained away as protecting their privacy against the 'bad FAs' who might otherwise harass them.

Now a few words about porn, a topic our friend Supero-D seems quite interested in. Firstly, let's clarify that porn is effectively any explicit content in the form of written word, pictorial or video for which the main objective is to elicit a sexual response from the reader/viewer (i.e. wank material). Supero-D is correct in saying that anyone who indulges in porn to excess is sadly out of touch with reality and missing out on a real interpersonal experience. However, I take issue with the characterization that FAs are more prone to having their perception of what constitutes a real romantic relationship distorted by porn any more than are non-FAs.
If anything, FAs, generally acknowledged to be of higher average intelligence than non-FAs, are all too aware of the pitfalls involved in trying to have a relationship with fat women, most of which are still unhappy with their bodies and generally unreceptive to the admiration of that body by the FA.


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## Dromond

waldo said:


> This pretty much sums up the problems that result in a general failure to achieve significant open, productive communications on Dims. Condescension and pretentiousness do not engender a widely participated and mutually satisfactory dialog between the sexes.
> 
> One source of communication problems seems to stem from the BAD behavior of a significant number of 'FAs' online and IRL (such as at the BBW social events). So as a result, we have a form of 'profiling' where those who appear and self-identify as FAs are assumed guilty until they somehow manage to prove themselves innocent. In contrast, 'BBWs' are automatically given the benefit of the doubt out of the gate. And people wonder why so many of the guys pass on active participation in the discussion boards
> 
> Just one example of the hypocrisy that prevails here: when guys decline to provide a picture of themselves in their avatar or profile they are criticized for 'hiding their identity'. But when the women do likewise, it is explained away as protecting their privacy against the 'bad FAs' who might otherwise harass them.
> 
> Now a few words about porn, a topic our friend Supero-D seems quite interested in. Firstly, let's clarify that porn is effectively any explicit content in the form of written word, pictorial or video for which the main objective is to elicit a sexual response from the reader/viewer (i.e. wank material). Supero-D is correct in saying that anyone who indulges in porn to excess is sadly out of touch with reality and missing out on a real interpersonal experience. However, I take issue with the characterization that FAs are more prone to having their perception of what constitutes a real romantic relationship distorted by porn any more than are non-FAs.
> If anything, FAs,* generally acknowledged to be of higher average intelligence than non-FAs,* are all too aware of the pitfalls involved in trying to have a relationship with fat women, most of which are still unhappy with their bodies and generally unreceptive to the admiration of that body by the FA.



Citation, please.


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## wrestlingguy

waldo said:


> One source of communication problems seems to stem from the BAD behavior of a significant number of 'FAs' online and IRL (such as at the BBW social events). So as a result, we have a form of 'profiling' where those who appear and self-identify as FAs are assumed guilty until they somehow manage to prove themselves innocent. In contrast, 'BBWs' are automatically given the benefit of the doubt out of the gate. And people wonder why so many of the guys pass on active participation in the discussion boards



*While I agree with some of this, I don't know that it's profiling that the other gender is engaging in. Most of what is communicated to women here never sees the light of day, but I wouldn't doubt that it's discussed privately between them. In fact, there was a women only group on Facebook that was established to do just that. So, while the guys see it as just being "lumped in with the rest of the bunch", the women likely view it more as a protective measure. As someone who ran BBW/FA events for several years, I can relate countless stories that I heard from women that involved lots of disrespect, theft, attempted rape, emotional and verbal abuse, and other things too disgusting to discuss here. Those actions by the men were one of several reasons that caused me to step away from promoting size positive events.*



waldo said:


> Just one example of the hypocrisy that prevails here: when guys decline to provide a picture of themselves in their avatar or profile they are criticized for 'hiding their identity'. But when the women do likewise, it is explained away as protecting their privacy against the 'bad FAs' who might otherwise harass them.



*Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most men here for the women? While there may be a few men & women looking for fat men, I think they'd be a minority here, where the "Bee Bee Dubya" is the one being pursued, often by men with not honorable intentions, and I have to tell you that THIS guy understands why they need to be as protective of their privacy, especially from men who seem to want to share little about themselves. I would do that in real life as well, regardless of gender.*



waldo said:


> Now a few words about porn, a topic our friend Supero-D seems quite interested in. Firstly, let's clarify that porn is effectively any explicit content in the form of written word, pictorial or video for which the main objective is to elicit a sexual response from the reader/viewer (i.e. wank material). Supero-D is correct in saying that anyone who indulges in porn to excess is sadly out of touch with reality and missing out on a real interpersonal experience. However, I take issue with the characterization that FAs are more prone to having their perception of what constitutes a real romantic relationship distorted by porn any more than are non-FAs.
> If anything, FAs, generally acknowledged to be of higher average intelligence than non-FAs, are all too aware of the pitfalls involved in trying to have a relationship with fat women, most of which are still unhappy with their bodies and generally unreceptive to the admiration of that body by the FA.



*I'm interested in porn as well, but not as a viewer or participant, more like what I think SuperO may want to be interested in, which is the psychological/social/romantic implications of it, especially in this very sexually charged community. A couple of years ago I started a blog series called "The BBW Porn Connection" (There's another one I wrote, which is Version 2.0, but I will use this blog as my example).
Now, while the "veterans of the community may be experienced enough to know that not every women in the fat community is like the paysite/web models they see, I can virtually guarantee that almost all of the guys who are here found our way to the community via BBW porn. The challenge I see, hence the cynicism by the women is that a newer, younger generation of guys who have been raised on the internet, who have little true social exchange in real life are finding this community the same way the older guys did, but are making different assumptions about the women here that are incorrect. In other words, it's the men doing the profiling. It is for this reason that I think the "FA"s generally get a bad rep, and one of the reasons that I don't want to be called a FA.*


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## waldo

wrestlingguy said:


> *While I agree with some of this, I don't know that it's profiling that the other gender is engaging in. Most of what is communicated to women here never sees the light of day, but I wouldn't doubt that it's discussed privately between them. In fact, there was a women only group on Facebook that was established to do just that. So, while the guys see it as just being "lumped in with the rest of the bunch", the women likely view it more as a protective measure. As someone who ran BBW/FA events for several years, I can relate countless stories that I heard from women that involved lots of disrespect, theft, attempted rape, emotional and verbal abuse, and other things too disgusting to discuss here. Those actions by the men were one of several reasons that caused me to step away from promoting size positive events.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most men here for the women? While there may be a few men & women looking for fat men, I think they'd be a minority here, where the "Bee Bee Dubya" is the one being pursued, often by men with not honorable intentions, and I have to tell you that THIS guy understands why they need to be as protective of their privacy, especially from men who seem to want to share little about themselves. I would do that in real life as well, regardless of gender.*
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm interested in porn as well, but not as a viewer or participant, more like what I think SuperO may want to be interested in, which is the psychological/social/romantic implications of it, especially in this very sexually charged community. A couple of years ago I started a blog series called "The BBW Porn Connection" (There's another one I wrote, which is Version 2.0, but I will use this blog as my example).
> Now, while the "veterans of the community may be experienced enough to know that not every women in the fat community is like the paysite/web models they see, I can virtually guarantee that almost all of the guys who are here found our way to the community via BBW porn. The challenge I see, hence the cynicism by the women is that a newer, younger generation of guys who have been raised on the internet, who have little true social exchange in real life are finding this community the same way the older guys did, but are making different assumptions about the women here that are incorrect. In other words, it's the men doing the profiling. It is for this reason that I think the "FA"s generally get a bad rep, and one of the reasons that I don't want to be called a FA.*



The thing is I don't have a problem with women members maintaining privacy if that's what they want. But my point is the men are viewed skeptically when we do the same. And I am talking about men just coming on the discussion board and participating, not contacting women privately. I have seen guys chastised and essentially told something to the effect of "how do you expect to be taken seriously, you won't even post a picture of yourself on your profile". Well as I responded at the time, a person could post a picture on their profile that isn't even of him/herself - so that whole perception that posting a pic will legitimize a poster is bunk. This is the internet, so you can't be sure of with whom you are dealing and even meeting IRL doesn't guarantee you REALLY know this person and their intentions.

As far as the list of awful things you posted that you have seen or heard about happening to fat women in the dating scene, yeah those are unfortunate, but it is not anything that doesn't happen constantly to thin women too. So just because some males that could be described as FAs are treating some fat women badly, does not make it fair to assume an FA is guilty until proven innocent. Hell, that goes against everything this country stands for (or at least used to).

As far as the statement/question "Correct me if I am wrong/ but aren't most men here for the women?" Maybe we need to do a poll. I am married so not here to 'hook up'. I believe you are also attached. Seems to me a lot of guys and women who are already attached are contributing to these discussions, so no I don't perceive this as some kind of online pickup joint at least as the discussion forum is concerned. What goes on in the private message space is perhaps a different matter.

Regarding "a newer, younger generation of guys who have been raised on the internet, who have little true social exchange in real life are finding this community the same way the older guys did, but are making different assumptions about the women here that are incorrect."

This perception that the younger males coming in have less social interaction IRL and are making different assumptions about the women here may or may not be accurate. One thing that seems generally accepted is that young people in general are becoming less civil and the remoteness of interaction via the internet has probably contributed a lot to that. But again this is not a FA specific thing, but a younger generation wide phenomenon.

As far as not wanting to call yourself an FA because FAs get a bad rap: Really? So if you call yourself a guy who is attracted to fat women (or better yet, someone who is attracted to fat folk), you really think that distances you from anything? As the old cliche goes 'a rose by any other name is still a rose'.

Fine, if FAs are so bad lets all just stop calling ourselves FAs. Maybe that will help. They won't have any 'FAs' to kick around anymore, that's for sure But Conrad is going to have to think of a new name for the FA/FFA board 

Good day to you sir


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## wrestlingguy

Waldo, like you, I'm in a relationship. I'm not here to hook up with anyone. I'm back here again to revitalize the boards with a more size acceptance oriented message than has been here the past couple of years.

I also returned to see if the waters here were different than they were several years ago, but in many ways, while things have changed, in many ways they're the same.

One of the reasons I got away from here and the fat community scene in general is because of the way I was treated, which was with great skepticism. Coming out of a marriage in 2009, it didn't take long before I was accused by some ladies that I was using my events in NJ as a personal dating pool. It wasn't true, but it hurt, because my partner in the NJ Bash and I worked our asses off, and my intentions in running the events were considered disingenuous. I felt that by leaving, I'd leave the aggravation and the "dirt" that was being said. In retrospect, it was a good decision. 

With all that said, I understood why that happened. I hold firm that fat women generally have a right to be a bit cynical when it comes to our gender, and from my experience (not yours or the experience of anyone else), I don't have a problem with it. If friendships or relationships take a little longer to develop because of a degree of caution on their part, I say so be it.

You're absolutely correct when you said that young people in general are becoming less civil and the remoteness of interaction via the internet has probably contributed a lot to that. I want to add however that I think this community is a little more sexually charged than others, and that can be a dangerous combination. Again, I ask that you trust my experience running events from 2007 until the end of 2010.

And yes, I do want to distance myself from the pack by not wanting the FA tag attached to me. I don't admire fat. I'm attracted to fat women, no different from any person having a preference for a body style, or hair color, or anything else that may float their boat. I really feel like attaching a name to that attraction (what do you call guys who like redheads?) makes it sound fetish, especially in light of the "men' who've represented the "Fat Admirers" on the talk show circuit over the past few years. Additionally, that term conflicts with the size acceptance movement overall, which says that all bodies should be accepted, regardless of size.

I lamented years ago that segregating these forums would do more to harm Dims than help it, and I still feel that it has been the underlying cause (along with the rise of Facebook and other social media groups) of the attrition that has taken place. Additionally, one look at the forum will show all of us that at any group of time there are more lurkers with no names and faces than there are real people contributing to discussions like this.

I think we would both agree that we'd like it to change.


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## waldo

Phil,

Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful response. Sorry I took a while to respond in kind, but I have actually been reading over your blog posts the last few days. I have read or at least skimmed through the entire archive. Thanks for opening up your personal life to help educate others of us who are interested in the BBW community and fat/size acceptance.
http://thenatural54.wordpress.com/page/19/

Yes I will defer to your much greater knowledge of the BBW dating scene and the prevalence of predatory males therein. I have only been to a handful of the BBW events (after already being married because they didn't have those where I lived prior to). And I met my wife through more conventional channels in 1996 just as the internet was starting to take off. So my dating experience was more facing the general skepticism that fat women have toward a guy who shows an interest in them, rather than the skepticism women within the BBW realm have.

From the few BBW events that we did attend, I sensed that this was not a particularly accepting environment but very clique-ish and had the feel of a 'meat market' not unlike any mainstream singles club. We did certainly run into a few guys that were not afraid to admit they were there to hook up with women for casual romantic encounters.

It seems to me that there are still way too many fat women who don't have a good man in their lives. I sense many men, which are attracted to fat women, are out there but not connecting with these women in nearly large enough numbers. Fat women not in the BBW community continue to be mostly convinced they are unworthy and makes it challenging to open up to them about your attraction to their plus-size bodies. And then for the women within the BBW scene we have this different type of skepticism and assumption men are being predatory unless proven otherwise. And even you after many years in the community, were accused of dishonorable intentions.

Here is one passage from one of your earlier blog entries on Nov 14, 2010, that I found particularly poignant:

"Thats part of the problem, if not most of it. Guys look for so much physical attraction and satisfaction that theres little fidelity within the community. They chat, they sex, they leave. Yeah, I know women who are like that too, but that will be for another blog. The chat/sex/leave syndrome screws good women up. It plays on their emotions, and eventually many of them become cynical, even of the guy who may have the most honest of intentions. * Its like a virus, the bad guys screw up the good women, who then begin to mistrust ALL men, and when a guy tries to break through the walls, ends up getting hurt so bad himself, that he runs the risk of becoming the cynic himself*, and hurting the next person hes involved with.  "

That virus analogy is very interesting. One has to wonder how many men have waded into but then been turned off the BBW dating scene by the cynicism that pervades it. So I think women should try their best to be gracious but cautious (i.e. trust BUT verify) and, above all, NEVER jump into bed with anyone until having a good chance to get to know him. If he doesn't want to wait for sex, then you don't want him (and of course this goes for all women fat or thin).

I appreciate your devotion to the fat/size acceptance message. And certainly those of us like me and you, who desire to be / are with a fat partner, have a stake in seeing this message regain some traction. At the same time improving the dialog between the sexes where we can 'meet in the middle' is an important aspect of this. Hopefully these discussion boards on Dimensions move in that kind of positive direction.


----------



## bigmac

waldo said:


> ...
> 
> Yes I will defer to your much greater knowledge of the BBW dating scene and the* prevalence of predatory males *therein.
> 
> ...
> 
> From the few BBW events that we did attend, I sensed that this was not a particularly accepting environment but very clique-ish and had the feel of a 'meat market' not unlike any mainstream singles club. We did certainly run into a few *guys that were not afraid to admit they were there to hook up* with women for casual romantic encounters.



These guys are not hard to spot. Indeed as you noted they are often very open about their intentions. Women who choose to hookup with these guys are on notice. I really don't understand why women think its going to be any different with them.





waldo said:


> ... assumption men are being predatory unless proven otherwise. ...




Many people -- men and women -- fat and thin -- seem incapable of separating wheat from chaff. Its best to avoid these people. 





waldo said:


> That virus analogy is very interesting. One has to wonder how many men have waded into but then been turned off the BBW dating scene by the cynicism that pervades it. So I think women should try their best to be gracious but cautious (i.e. trust BUT verify) and, * above all, NEVER jump into bed with anyone until having a good chance to get to know him*. If he doesn't want to wait for sex, then you don't want him (and of course this goes for all women fat or thin).
> 
> ...



I'm going to have to strenuously disagree. Many people waste tons of time and huge sums of money getting to know people only to belatedly find out that they're not sexually compatible. *My rule has always been never sleep with an asshole* (whether or not a person is an ass can usually be determined in less than hour -- sometimes much less).


----------



## wrestlingguy

waldo said:


> Phil,
> 
> Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful response. Sorry I took a while to respond in kind, but I have actually been reading over your blog posts the last few days. I have read or at least skimmed through the entire archive. Thanks for opening up your personal life to help educate others of us who are interested in the BBW community and fat/size acceptance.
> http://thenatural54.wordpress.com/page/19/
> 
> Yes I will defer to your much greater knowledge of the BBW dating scene and the prevalence of predatory males therein. I have only been to a handful of the BBW events (after already being married because they didn't have those where I lived prior to). And I met my wife through more conventional channels in 1996 just as the internet was starting to take off. So my dating experience was more facing the general skepticism that fat women have toward a guy who shows an interest in them, rather than the skepticism women within the BBW realm have.
> 
> From the few BBW events that we did attend, I sensed that this was not a particularly accepting environment but very clique-ish and had the feel of a 'meat market' not unlike any mainstream singles club. We did certainly run into a few guys that were not afraid to admit they were there to hook up with women for casual romantic encounters.
> 
> It seems to me that there are still way too many fat women who don't have a good man in their lives. I sense many men, which are attracted to fat women, are out there but not connecting with these women in nearly large enough numbers. Fat women not in the BBW community continue to be mostly convinced they are unworthy and makes it challenging to open up to them about your attraction to their plus-size bodies. And then for the women within the BBW scene we have this different type of skepticism and assumption men are being predatory unless proven otherwise. And even you after many years in the community, were accused of dishonorable intentions.
> 
> Here is one passage from one of your earlier blog entries on Nov 14, 2010, that I found particularly poignant:
> 
> "Thats part of the problem, if not most of it. Guys look for so much physical attraction and satisfaction that theres little fidelity within the community. They chat, they sex, they leave. Yeah, I know women who are like that too, but that will be for another blog. The chat/sex/leave syndrome screws good women up. It plays on their emotions, and eventually many of them become cynical, even of the guy who may have the most honest of intentions. * Its like a virus, the bad guys screw up the good women, who then begin to mistrust ALL men, and when a guy tries to break through the walls, ends up getting hurt so bad himself, that he runs the risk of becoming the cynic himself*, and hurting the next person hes involved with.  "
> 
> That virus analogy is very interesting. One has to wonder how many men have waded into but then been turned off the BBW dating scene by the cynicism that pervades it. So I think women should try their best to be gracious but cautious (i.e. trust BUT verify) and, above all, NEVER jump into bed with anyone until having a good chance to get to know him. If he doesn't want to wait for sex, then you don't want him (and of course this goes for all women fat or thin).
> 
> I appreciate your devotion to the fat/size acceptance message. And certainly those of us like me and you, who desire to be / are with a fat partner, have a stake in seeing this message regain some traction. At the same time improving the dialog between the sexes where we can 'meet in the middle' is an important aspect of this. Hopefully these discussion boards on Dimensions move in that kind of positive direction.



Waldo, I can't rep you for this post, but thank you for the kind words.

After I left Dimensions for a hiatus back in late 2010, I began to blog on the suggestion of my therapist, in an effort to clear my head of all of the shock and disappointment in the social part of this community. I was fully aware of the fact that it had affected me more over a 5 year period than anyone else I knew.

One of the things that was an immediate satisfaction from blogging was that I could moderate comments, and I didn't allow many. The reason for that was also one of the reasons that I left here at that time. People will take your words, put them in a grinder, form it into something else, and spit it out in a different manner so it can fit their personal agenda.

Like so many others who post here, I tend to read things over several times before I forge a response. I'll often sleep on it these days, so I ensure that I'm not overreacting to something. I think words should stand on their own, and while I don't plan on making this site the near full time gig that it was for me prior to 2010, I do plan on posting my words periodically, almost like a drive by, as they mean more to me when I don't feel the need to return here to see who's put their own spin on them, like is happening in this thread.

Thanks again for the honest dialogue.


----------



## Tracyarts

" I really don't understand why women think its going to be any different with them. "

Because they want so badly for it to be different. They delude themselves into believing that they will be "the one" to capture his heart. They start to look at his previous partners and dismiss them by nitpicking any and every flaw, or seeing nonexistant flaws where they want to see them. In their mind, they are the perfect woman for him and all the other women who have been there before didn't treat him right and didn't deserve him. 

Or they're just inexperienced with relationships and lacking in adult-level social skills and can't pick up on the red flags. It happens more often than you'd think. 

Tracy


----------



## Tad

Tracyarts said:


> Or they're just inexperienced with relationships and lacking in adult-level social skills and can't pick up on the red flags. It happens more often than you'd think.



I think that this is one thing to keep in mind--I get the strong impression that FA and big folk are less likely to have extensive dating histories by the time they hit adult-hood, and are more likely to have either not dated at all or at least not have had and decent relationships. (note: "more likely" and "less likely" -- yes there are a good number who had great social lives while growing up).

The result of course being that at times there there is going to be some junior high level of sophistication with regards to dating, romance, and sex, possibly amplified by years of insecurity and a feeling of "it is never going to happen 'out there' so this is my only real shot." (this goes equally for FA and big folk, in my mind, although the results of these feelings may play out differently). And frankly, while some people seem to be born being good at navigating these waters, most people have to learn through experience. Our society expects people to have gotten over this process during adolescence, and doesn't offer much guidance or empathy for people who are only stumbling through it later in life.

I've not been to bashes, but I've seen enough of this sort of thing on the chat rooms and web boards to get the impression that it plays a not insignificant role in the community.


----------



## Webmaster

Tracyarts said:


> They delude themselves into believing that they will be "the one" to capture his heart.



But sometimes it does happen, Tracy.


----------



## waldo

bigmac said:


> These guys are not hard to spot. Indeed as you noted they are often very open about their intentions. Women who choose to hookup with these guys are on notice. I really don't understand why women think its going to be any different with them.
> 
> Many people -- men and women -- fat and thin -- seem incapable of separating wheat from chaff. Its best to avoid these people.
> 
> I'm going to have to strenuously disagree. Many people waste tons of time and huge sums of money getting to know people only to belatedly find out that they're not sexually compatible. *My rule has always been never sleep with an asshole* (whether or not a person is an ass can usually be determined in less than hour -- sometimes much less).



Mac, some of the 'predatory males' are much better at hiding their true intentions, and just like the dating world in general, will tell a fat woman (often inexperienced in dating as Tad pointed out) all the stuff she wants to hear, playing on her emotions like a fiddle.

Your rule about "never sleep with an asshole" is obviously a good one. My point is assholes are often very adept at hiding in sheep's clothing, and it can take a while to see if the wolf peaks out from under there. I totally agree about not spending too much time and especially money in a relationship before it gets sexual. I am just saying don't do it too quickly either; well the wording I used was "until you have a good chance to get to know him." How long that should take is up for debate and also personal opinion of those involved. I just don't like to hear about a woman pressured into going along with sex first time she hooks up with a guy at some BBW event because she is afraid that she will 'lose him' to the floozy at the next table if she does not. And then after a few experiences like that the cynicism that wrestlingguy described sets in.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that too many people are having long distance relationships. For example, someone from out here in the Midwest flies out to one of the big events on the coast or Vegas and meets a guy/girl living over 1000 miles from them. Or maybe more commonly they are hooking up online with someone that lives far away. So this makes it difficult to have a proper development of a relationship with a few dates before jumping in the sack (and NO waiting until day 3 of a 4 day weekend bash doesn't count ). So my advice for anyone who cares to listen: narrow it to within a few hours drive of your home, so that getting together on a weekend is practical and not bank-account busting.



wrestlingguy said:


> Waldo, I can't rep you for this post, but thank you for the kind words.
> 
> After I left Dimensions for a hiatus back in late 2010, I began to blog on the suggestion of my therapist, in an effort to clear my head of all of the shock and disappointment in the social part of this community. I was fully aware of the fact that it had affected me more over a 5 year period than anyone else I knew.
> 
> One of the things that was an immediate satisfaction from blogging was that I could moderate comments, and I didn't allow many. The reason for that was also one of the reasons that I left here at that time. People will take your words, put them in a grinder, form it into something else, and spit it out in a different manner so it can fit their personal agenda.
> 
> Like so many others who post here, I tend to read things over several times before I forge a response. I'll often sleep on it these days, so I ensure that I'm not overreacting to something. I think words should stand on their own, and while I don't plan on making this site the near full time gig that it was for me prior to 2010, I do plan on posting my words periodically, almost like a drive by, as they mean more to me when I don't feel the need to return here to see who's put their own spin on them, like is happening in this thread.
> 
> Thanks again for the honest dialogue.



Thanks for sharing your thoughts on posting. Yes, I agree it is often frustrating when people either attempt to misrepresent what one posts or try to assume all kind of things about you based on a few things that you posted (i.e. if you disagree with them on some topic you MUST be such and such type of loathsome person). And no doubt, always better to wait and mull it over before responding to a post that gets under your skin. And posting on message boards like everything can be summed up by one of my other favorite cliches 'all good things in moderation'


----------



## superodalisque

Tad said:


> I think that this is one thing to keep in mind--I get the strong impression that FA and big folk are less likely to have extensive dating histories by the time they hit adult-hood, and are more likely to have either not dated at all or at least not have had and decent relationships. (note: "more likely" and "less likely" -- yes there are a good number who had great social lives while growing up).
> 
> The result of course being that at times there there is going to be some junior high level of sophistication with regards to dating, romance, and sex, possibly amplified by years of insecurity and a feeling of "it is never going to happen 'out there' so this is my only real shot." (this goes equally for FA and big folk, in my mind, although the results of these feelings may play out differently). And frankly, while some people seem to be born being good at navigating these waters, most people have to learn through experience. Our society expects people to have gotten over this process during adolescence, and doesn't offer much guidance or empathy for people who are only stumbling through it later in life.
> 
> I've not been to bashes, but I've seen enough of this sort of thing on the chat rooms and web boards to get the impression that it plays a not insignificant role in the community.



actually it's much worse than jr high school. that's why when i was going i wouldn't even attempt anything near dating with anyone there. there is a lot of petty jealousy among women. there isn't even such a thing as being friends with guys. even when i was in jr high school i was allowed to have male friends without all of the weird scrutiny. it's really very unnatural. you talk to someone for few minutes and they are supposed to be a serious love interest and people question you up and down. there is no just getting to know someone. it's really crazy. if you do offer to meet someone there on a friendship basis just to talk as friends and discuss things it can open everyone up to a whole lot of unnecessary problems with gossipy jealous women and guys. even guys who are kinda okay are trouble because most of them just don't get it even when they think they do. it isn't just suspicion but the fact that a lot of people just get sick and tired of everything nice getting tainted or dirtied somehow.


----------



## bigmac

Tracyarts said:


> " I really don't understand why women think its going to be any different with them. "
> 
> Because they want so badly for it to be different. *They delude themselves into believing that they will be "the one" to capture his heart.* They start to look at his previous partners and dismiss them by nitpicking any and every flaw, or seeing nonexistant flaws where they want to see them. *In their mind, they are the perfect woman for him* and all the other women who have been there before didn't treat him right and didn't deserve him.
> 
> Or they're just inexperienced with relationships and lacking in adult-level social skills and can't pick up on the red flags. It happens more often than you'd think.
> 
> Tracy



Yes, I've seen this. However, I cannot blame the guys in these situations. If you irrationally delude yourself you don't get any sympathy from me. I know that seems harsh but you wouldn't believe how many times women have cried on my shoulder with some variant of the _"I can't believe he did this to me"_ story. I've had to bite my tongue to avoid saying _are you fuckin kidding me -- of course I can believe it -- it was god damn obvious._


----------



## superodalisque

bigmac said:


> Yes, I've seen this. However, I cannot blame the guys in these situations. If you irrationally delude yourself you don't get any sympathy from me. I know that seems harsh but you wouldn't believe how many times women have cried on my shoulder with some variant of the _"I can't believe he did this to me"_ story. I've had to bite my tongue to avoid saying _are you fuckin kidding me -- of course I can believe it -- it was god damn obvious._



i feel that way sometimes myself but it doesn't keep the fast talkers from being asses for playing these games with women who are often very inexperienced and knowing they picked them out for that very reason. they don't get a pass just because someone happens to be naive. whats funny is the same guys get mad when they get a bad rep because they get told on. i think women shouldn't be embarrassed that they didn't get it and if someone is an ass to them they should shit where he lives.


----------



## wrestlingguy

Webmaster said:


> But sometimes it does happen, Tracy.



Unfortunately, while it does happen, it doesn't happen most of the time, or even some of the time. It happens so infrequently that women in this community have become cynical about relationships with men also from the fat community. 

I think most fat women would rather buy a lottery ticket than roll the dice on most of the men who call themselves FAs. While there are still women with dreams of being "the one", the fact remains that they typically aren't.


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## Webmaster

wrestlingguy said:


> Unfortunately, while it does happen, it doesn't happen most of the time, or even some of the time. It happens so infrequently that women in this community have become cynical about relationships with men also from the fat community.
> 
> I think most fat women would rather buy a lottery ticket than roll the dice on most of the men who call themselves FAs. While there are still women with dreams of being "the one", the fact remains that they typically aren't.



Now that's a bit cynical, too. It does happen.


----------



## superodalisque

wrestlingguy said:


> Unfortunately, while it does happen, it doesn't happen most of the time, or even some of the time. It happens so infrequently that women in this community have become cynical about relationships with men also from the fat community.
> 
> I think most fat women would rather buy a lottery ticket than roll the dice on most of the men who call themselves FAs. While there are still women with dreams of being "the one", the fact remains that they typically aren't.



i agree. it is very rare even when people wish them both well and are pulling for things to work out it can often end up being a really scary train wreck instead. relationships are hard anyway. it's even worse when there isn't a good fertile training ground for the way people need to behave toward each other to make life as a couple work. in my experience it is a whole lot easier to find someone outside of the community and make it work. my friends who are fat outside of it stay together much more often because the situation isn't so skewed and awkward. that's exponentially true if you are the monogamous type. definitely much more likely to find a guy who wants to be and knows how to act in monogamous ways away from all of that stuff. a lot of folks think they can't but don't have a clue how to and it's very unattractive to people who've known more.


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## BigCutieLaurel

This post is born out of my experiences only so if it doesn't apply to you, that's ok, we're different people.

I've been overweight since I was 14 and have been plus sized my entire dating life and I have never had an issue. I feel like sometimes the mentality of poor defenseless women who are being tricked into sex with scum bags can be a little sexist and could in some circumstances make women who would otherwise be enjoying casual sex feel shame about it. I don't feel like women for the most part are overly trusting, naive people who will jump into bed with any guy who shows them acknowledgement or affection. I do believe however that there are plenty of women out there who enjoy the dating scene and take advantage of the free nature of sexuality in those circumstances, and why not? 
I myself have had casual sex with no strings attached, I knew what it was (though he didn't spell it out for me), I enjoyed it and then I moved on. Out right emotional manipulation and lying is of course unacceptable. But I think we often victimize women who otherwise would not victimize themselves, if that makes sense.


----------



## superodalisque

Tahlia said:


> This post is born out of my experiences only so if it doesn't apply to you, that's ok, we're different people.
> 
> I've been overweight since I was 14 and have been plus sized my entire dating life and I have never had an issue. I feel like sometimes the mentality of poor defenseless women who are being tricked into sex with scum bags can be a little sexist and could in some circumstances make women who would otherwise be enjoying casual sex feel shame about it. I don't feel like women for the most part are overly trusting, naive people who will jump into bed with any guy who shows them acknowledgement or affection. I do believe however that there are plenty of women out there who enjoy the dating scene and take advantage of the free nature of sexuality in those circumstances, and why not?
> I myself have had casual sex with no strings attached, I knew what it was (though he didn't spell it out for me), I enjoyed it and then I moved on. Out right emotional manipulation and lying is of course unacceptable. But I think we often victimize women who otherwise would not victimize themselves, if that makes sense.




my experience is a lot like yours so i get where you're coming from. you really should go to a bash. it really is nothing like the rest of the dating world in a lot of ways. not to say everyone is this way but when you have a 50 yr old woman who has always hated her body because nearly absolutely everyone she comes in contact with has found a way to let her know she is unacceptable and is still a virgin or may have had sex only once in her life because someone molested her as a child-- well you get the picture. there is a substantial number of people who don't come to the community because being fat or even just regular old life was easy for them . it took me a long time to understand that and i am still learning. people have gone through some harsh heart breaking stuff. when they come to the community they are looking for the love family acceptance and friendship that it promises. sometimes they haven't had hardly any of that before because people use their fat as an excuse to withhold everything a human being needs to thrive. the more i found out the more my entire heart just broke to the point that i would just hide away and cry for folks sometimes. not to say i feel they are total victims but i think a lot of people are really brave but fragile survivors.

i don't think it's fair for folks to victimize people all over again and then blame them because they get broken up when someone was an ass to them just because they have a fantasy and found an easy way to get away with things. it's really simple to say someone should know when we haven't walked a mile in their shoes. there are other women of course it's not an issue for at all for but that isn't who we are talking about. and the sad thing is that it's usually the naive soft inexperienced ones these guys are attracted to as if breaking someone down even more makes them feel powerful because a lot of them have really low self esteem and dicey backgrounds as well and this is how they work it out on someone else. that's why they hide and think of themselves as a pathology. people who feel okay with themselves don't do that. if you think you are sick why not act sick ? yes it goes on in the thin world too but that doesn't make it alright either. 

View attachment 1186316_705797416114540_79590849_n.jpg


----------



## waldo

Tahlia said:


> This post is born out of my experiences only so if it doesn't apply to you, that's ok, we're different people.
> 
> I've been overweight since I was 14 and have been plus sized my entire dating life and I have never had an issue. I feel like sometimes the mentality of poor defenseless women who are being tricked into sex with scum bags can be a little sexist and could in some circumstances make women who would otherwise be enjoying casual sex feel shame about it. I don't feel like women for the most part are overly trusting, naive people who will jump into bed with any guy who shows them acknowledgement or affection. I do believe however that there are plenty of women out there who enjoy the dating scene and take advantage of the free nature of sexuality in those circumstances, and why not?
> I myself have had casual sex with no strings attached, I knew what it was (though he didn't spell it out for me), I enjoyed it and then I moved on. Out right emotional manipulation and lying is of course unacceptable. But I think we often victimize women who otherwise would not victimize themselves, if that makes sense.



This is a good point. Not all the women involved in these sexual revolving doors are victims. In some case it is just old consensual casual sex and both parties are getting what they want. In other cases the guy is hoping for more and when it is made clear this is not going anywhere, he is the one with the broken heart (again rare but don't think it doesn't happen). Sometimes women are the manipulators and even get men to buy them stuff then ignore the guys. See Phil's recent blog post on that called "I'm fat, now buy me something":
http://thenatural54.wordpress.com/

you need to scroll down to the 2nd entry on the page


----------



## superodalisque

waldo said:


> This is a good point. Not all the women involved in these sexual revolving doors are victims. In some case it is just old consensual casual sex and both parties are getting what they want. In other cases the guy is hoping for more and when it is made clear this is not going anywhere, he is the one with the broken heart (again rare but don't think it doesn't happen). Sometimes women are the manipulators and even get men to buy them stuff then ignore the guys. See Phil's recent blog post on that called "I'm fat, now buy me something":
> http://thenatural54.wordpress.com/
> 
> you need to scroll down to the 2nd entry on the page



i'm curious. why do you think they develop that attitude? nearly all of the girls i know and have met over my 13 yrs who have gotten crass like that did not start out that way.


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## waldo

superodalisque said:


> i'm curious. why do you think they develop that attitude? nearly all of the girls i know and have met over my 13 yrs who have gotten crass like that did not start out that way.



Well again, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because someone may have been used/manipulated and then discarded like a sack of trash in the past, doesn't mean he/she has the right to do it to someone else just because they are of the same gender as people that screwed him/her over in the past. I assume you are familiar with the Golden Rule (and no not the one that says he who has the gold makes the rules - the other one )

And BTW, I always love when you start off your replies with a phase along the lines of "I'm curious", since I always know something interesting (i.e. loaded question) is coming after. Have a good night dear lady


----------



## BigCutieLaurel

@superodalisque

I get where you're coming from and my opinions may very well be completely or at least partially invalid due to my lack of involvement until very recently with the BBW community and you are correct in your assumption that I have never been to an event. I feel that though the prevalence of women who have and will be victimized by men taking advantage of their low self esteem, lack of experience and/or painful emotional pasts would be higher than the average community/dating events that it would still be a minority of cases. 

This may be due to the fact that all of my interactions with the women in the Fat Acceptance movement have shown them to be very strong, capable and independent ladies with good heads on their shoulders. Again though, I am aware that my experiences are very new. It could be argued that I am very naive.


----------



## wrestlingguy

Webmaster said:


> Now that's a bit cynical, too. It does happen.



So, should all fat women hang on in hopes that they will be "the one", or should they go about their days and be happy with their lives, not predicated upon the validation of their persona by the affections of another that may not be sincere?


----------



## superodalisque

Tahlia said:


> @superodalisque
> 
> I get where you're coming from and my opinions may very well be completely or at least partially invalid due to my lack of involvement until very recently with the BBW community and you are correct in your assumption that I have never been to an event. I feel that though the prevalence of women who have and will be victimized by men taking advantage of their low self esteem, lack of experience and/or painful emotional pasts would be higher than the average community/dating events that it would still be a minority of cases.
> 
> This may be due to the fact that all of my interactions with the women in the Fat Acceptance movement have shown them to be very strong, capable and independent ladies with good heads on their shoulders. Again though, I am aware that my experiences are very new. It could be argued that I am very naive.



there are a lot of very awesome women out here in the community who are really trying to change things and try to be very helpful to anybody they meet. that doesn't mean they are actually fully living it. there is a lot of fake it until you make it around. so what may appear strong and confident online may not seem the same in person. i know a lot of women who are extremely wonderful and very strong in many ways who still have issues in how to control their personal life. it doesn't make them bad or stupid people but it makes them human.

if you are naive don't think of it a a bad thing. i enjoyed things a whole lot more when i was naive. sometimes ignorance _is_ bliss. but most of all i hope you are right. i'd be really happy to be wrong


----------



## Webmaster

wrestlingguy said:


> So, should all fat women hang on in hopes that they will be "the one", or should they go about their days and be happy with their lives, not predicated upon the validation of their persona by the affections of another that may not be sincere?



People should go about their days and be happy with their lives, but that does not mean anyone should stop believing that a wondrous, terrific relationship just may happen. I see and read a lot of negativity in this thread, but great relationships do happen. And many have happened through Dimensions. I firmly believe that being "the one" can happen to anyone and everyone.


----------



## superodalisque

waldo said:


> Well again, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because someone may have been used/manipulated and then discarded like a sack of trash in the past, doesn't mean he/she has the right to do it to someone else just because they are of the same gender as people that screwed him/her over in the past. I assume you are familiar with the Golden Rule (and no not the one that says he who has the gold makes the rules - the other one )
> 
> And BTW, I always love when you start off your replies with a phase along the lines of "I'm curious", since I always know something interesting (i.e. loaded question) is coming after. Have a good night dear lady



i was really curious. and of course my questions are loaded. what would be the point of pedestrian convo? that is no way to learn anything. i think you're right that both groups feed off of each other's pain and it is a vicious cycle. i do believe in the golden rule but i also believe in honesty when examining where certain actions come from and who often benefits and why. neither side is exempt from being hurt but one side is an object and the other is not so much of one. "objects" are a focus of control. that could have a lot to do with why my opinion is more weighted on one side than another. if i saw guys objectified and depersonalized to the same level i'd probably think differently. but there are a lot of very obvious and very public differences between the position of one group and the other.


----------



## waldo

superodalisque said:


> there are a lot of very awesome women out here in the community who are really trying to change things and try to be very helpful to anybody they meet. that doesn't mean they are actually fully living it. there is a lot of fake it until you make it around. so what may appear strong and confident online may not seem the same in person. i know a lot of women who are extremely wonderful and very strong in many ways who still have issues in how to control their personal life. it doesn't make them bad or stupid people but it makes them human.
> 
> if you are naive don't think of it a a bad thing. i enjoyed things a whole lot more when i was naive. sometimes ignorance _is_ bliss. but most of all i hope you are right. i'd be really happy to be wrong



Yes and yes.  I was going to say the same that both the guys who like fat women and fat women themselves are often still working on their self-confidence (i.e. fake it until you make it) and therefore sometimes sound more 'together' online than they really are.



Webmaster said:


> People should go about their days and be happy with their lives, but that does not mean anyone should stop believing that a wondrous, terrific relationship just may happen. I see and read a lot of negativity in this thread, but great relationships do happen. And many have happened through Dimensions. I firmly believe that being "the one" can happen to anyone and everyone.



I think we need to remember to distinguish between being the one that convinces a habitual womanizer (i.e. the lounge lizards that inhabit the BBW events) to settle down and a successful romance between two equally well-intentioned people. Perhaps the latter is something that for some reason is not being facilitated by these BBW social events. Maybe because not enough well-intentioned guys are attending these events  Perhaps a new paradigm (of some sort) is needed. And yeah I know at least a couple people who have successfully hooked up via Dimensions in recent years. It's good but just not enough, as far as I can tell.



superodalisque said:


> i was really curious. and of course my questions are loaded. what would be the point of pedestrian convo? that is no way to learn anything. i think you're right that both groups feed off of each other's pain and it is a vicious cycle. i do believe in the golden rule but i also believe in honesty when examining where certain actions come from and who often benefits and why. neither side is exempt from being hurt but one side is an object and the other is not so much of one. "objects" are a focus of control. that could have a lot to do with why my opinion is more weighted on one side than another. if i saw guys objectified and depersonalized to the same level i'd probably think differently. but there are a lot of very obvious and very public differences between the position of one group and the other.




It's true women are inherently operating from a weaker position in our society, and the men who allow themselves to be used are usually doing it because they are trying to 'get some' as opposed to women getting used who more often are 'trying to find Mr. Right'. Like I've said, I feel quite unhappy over the apparent continuing paucity of healthy long-term relationships between fat women and the men who are attracted to them. I just wish there was a magic wand to improve the situation.

You better be careful or I just may end up liking you afterall. But seriously, we agree on some stuff, disagree on a lot more, but most importantly I do feel your intentions are sincere as far as having an honest debate, so.... carry on my friend.


----------



## superodalisque

waldo said:


> Yes and yes.  I was going to say the same that both the guys who like fat women and fat women themselves are often still working on their self-confidence (i.e. fake it until you make it) and therefore sometimes sound more 'together' online than they really are.
> 
> 
> 
> *I think we need to remember to distinguish between being the one that convinces a habitual womanizer (i.e. the lounge lizards that inhabit the BBW events) to settle down and a successful romance between two equally well-intentioned people. Perhaps the latter is something that for some reason is not being facilitated by these BBW social events.* *Maybe because not enough well-intentioned guys are attending these events  Perhaps a new paradigm (of some sort) is needed.* And yeah I know at least a couple people who have successfully hooked up via Dimensions in recent years. It's good but just not enough, as far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's true women are inherently operating from a weaker position in our society, and the men who allow themselves to be used are usually doing it because they are trying to 'get some' as opposed to women getting used who more often are 'trying to find Mr. Right'. Like I've said, I feel quite unhappy over the apparent continuing paucity of healthy long-term relationships between fat women and the men who are attracted to them. I just wish there was a magic wand to improve the situation.
> 
> You better be careful or I just may end up liking you afterall. But seriously, we agree on some stuff, disagree on a lot more, but most importantly I do feel your intentions are sincere as far as having an honest debate, so.... carry on my friend.



i don't think women are _inherently_ in a weaker position so much as that weaker position is manufactured by the type of behaviors toward them that we choose to adapt. one very easy step forward would be to stop fostering totally low minded shallowness and to stop attacking the idea of people of both sexes actually having a real relationships. it's okay to love the fat aesthetic and revel in sexuality and sensuality but we need to learn how to do it in healthier ways for everyone's sake and not resort to the lowest common denominator at every turn. everyone talks about how people are wired. that is true people are wired in certain ways as are animals. but the difference , one could say, between people and animals is their consciousness and the ability to think about analyze and control at least some of the things they do. 

devoted couples actually don't have much of a place in all of this. you are exactly right that men who want to be in a devoted relationship aren't supported. a lot of really great guys that i have known find the situation pretty distasteful and uncomfortable and stop showing up after a few times. heck they won't even post in the forums or paysite board here even though they always come in to have a peek . people would be surprised at how many men would really like the chance to have a simple night with a bunch of friends just so they could get to know them and would be perfectly happy going back to their rooms alone at night. once i was talking about a getaway for like minded people before and people brought up things like campfires, board games mudding fishing etc... just normal people getting to know each other for who were and actually doing fun things together. 

it is amazing how hostile some people can be toward the idea of a basic mutually supportive relationship. the refusal to acknowledge that they can and do exist for fat folk and the people who are interested in them is odd. the acceptance of hopelessness kinds of interactions and a reliance on convenient usage of one another as though all human beings are and always will want to be disposable doesn't help much either. a relationship requires people to be vulnerable. fearful people are the last people to be vulnerable and the first to attack the thing they are most afraid of or want the most deep down. sometimes it is amazing that the mere mention that _some_ people may actually want relationships, love, basic respect, monogamy or even just a regular old date can bring up so much anger and refutation in people. there is something very wrong with that.

hey i like you already but i_ will_ be hard on you because i don't think you are a whimp just because you like fat women


----------



## bigmac

waldo said:


> ... I just don't like to hear about a *woman pressured into going along with sex *first time she hooks up with a guy at some BBW event because she is afraid that she will 'lose him' to the floozy at the next table if she does not. And then after a few experiences like that the cynicism that wrestlingguy described sets in.
> 
> ...



Why would you think guys are pressuring women into having sex. Women can and do decide to have sex without any pressure. 

A problem is that some women make the irrational assumption that after a fun night they're somehow entitled to be automatically elevated to the status of girlfriend.

Also, if a woman decides to "do it" to beat out the competition how is this the guy's problem?


----------



## Forgotten_Futures

wrestlingguy said:


> So, should all fat women hang on in hopes that they will be "the one", or should they go about their days and be happy with their lives, not predicated upon the validation of their persona by the affections of another that may not be sincere?



You should always seek to be happy (or, at the very least) content with your own life before involving someone else, because you can never know exactly what effect on you they will have, nor you on them. Stability and instability are both contagious, and will compound if given the chance.


----------



## waldo

bigmac said:


> Why would you think guys are pressuring women into having sex. Women can and do decide to have sex without any pressure.
> 
> A problem is that some women make the irrational assumption that after a fun night they're somehow entitled to be automatically elevated to the status of girlfriend.
> 
> Also, if a woman decides to "do it" to beat out the competition how is this the guy's problem?



Guys have been pressuring women onto having sex since time immemorial. You know it's where that cliche line "Yes I'll still respect you in the morning" comes from. You're right that there are some women who specifically are looking for or are OK with casual sexual encounters, but I still suspect they are generally outnumbered by the men significantly in this regard. Why else would there be so much wide-spread animosity against the 'FAs' who frequent the BBW social events?

You said yourself that you have had multiple women crying on your shoulder about getting used by players at these BBW social events. I think it is because the guys are generally misrepresenting their feelings as though he is really falling for this woman (i.e. telling her what she wants to hear). If there was a honest mutual understanding that 'at least for now' this is a no-strings attached sexual encounter, probably many of them would not occur this soon into the relationship.

And I agree women are responsible for their actions. If they go against their better judgement, having sex with a guy before they are ready for fear of losing his interest, they do have to accept some responsibility. But it is really tough to act rationally when someone is playing on your vulnerability.


----------



## Tracyarts

" Like I've said, I feel quite unhappy over the apparent continuing paucity of healthy long-term relationships between fat women and the men who are attracted to them. "

Outside of the fat community? 

Because where I live, the fat women I know through my day to day life aren't any less likely to be in a healthy long-term relationship than a non-fat woman. If they want something long-term. And those that aren't interested in that don't have any trouble finding casual partners either. 

Maybe because I live in a part of the country where there are a lot of fat people in general?

Tracy


----------



## superodalisque

waldo said:


> Guys have been pressuring women onto having sex since time immemorial. You know it's where that cliche line "Yes I'll still respect you in the morning" comes from. You're right that there are some women who specifically are looking for or are OK with casual sexual encounters, but I still suspect they are generally outnumbered by the men significantly in this regard. Why else would there be so much wide-spread animosity against the 'FAs' who frequent the BBW social events?
> 
> You said yourself that you have had multiple women crying on your shoulder about getting used by players at these BBW social events. I think it is because the guys are generally misrepresenting their feelings as though he is really falling for this woman (i.e. telling her what she wants to hear). If there was a honest mutual understanding that 'at least for now' this is a no-strings attached sexual encounter, probably many of them would not occur this soon into the relationship.
> 
> And I agree women are responsible for their actions. If they go against their better judgement, having sex with a guy before they are ready for fear of losing his interest, they do have to accept some responsibility. But it is really tough to act rationally when someone is playing on your vulnerability.



some guys do misrepresent and overstate their feelings in a big way to the point that it is way beyond the pale. i can't tell you how many over the top overtures have been made to me over the years online. i've heard it all from folks who never met you telling you how much their family will like you in a pointed way and talking about having babies with you and moving you to where they are. i _know_ women are not making this stuff up. it's not unusual at all. they will say just about anything to somebody they don't even know and have never met including talking about marriage and everything else. and if they are ever taken seriously and it gets out they tell everyone that the person is crazy unbalanced and stupid. the sad thing is lot of women go right along with him in beating the poor woman up and treating her like the dumb liar he says she is until he does it to them.

there are also women who have what i call a party personae. they try to act like being used makes no difference or that they don't care. but underneath the wild devil may care party mask they are often very angry depressed and negative. if it was working for them why are they so pissed off and sarcastic? the women i know who are truly okay with casual sex don't even have to talk about it and you'd never know because they aren't trying to impress anyone--just dong their thing. but there is something suspicious about women who have to make a big show of something so simple as having sex. it's odd that for someone who doesn't care they are some of the first women who get angry if the guy doesn't pay them the attention they expected. 

i think the community does encourage women to pretend they are hardened. after all it makes it a whole lot easier for people who don't want to face up to the people they hurt to encourage women to slut shame each other and keep their secrets. they also encourage other women to brand you a slut shamer if you dare even pretend that some women wanted to be treated with any kind of respect or long term intention and a lot of otherwise well balanced women buy into and go along with that too. 

there are also some women who get truly embarrassed and blame themselves for being "stupid". but that is not where the blame lies. they aren't stupid. the person who did that to them is. so it's easier for them to pretend that was what they intended--a quick meaningless roll in the hay. it's safer to have or pretend to have low or no expectations then you don't have to be vulnerable or get hurt.


----------



## waldo

Tracyarts said:


> " Like I've said, I feel quite unhappy over the apparent continuing paucity of healthy long-term relationships between fat women and the men who are attracted to them. "
> 
> Outside of the fat community?
> 
> Because where I live, the fat women I know through my day to day life aren't any less likely to be in a healthy long-term relationship than a non-fat woman. If they want something long-term. And those that aren't interested in that don't have any trouble finding casual partners either.
> 
> Maybe because I live in a part of the country where there are a lot of fat people in general?
> 
> Tracy




Tracy, that is an interesting point. While the overall national statistics do show a lower likelihood of being married with increased weight (perhaps the word paucity is overstating the issue), one has to wonder about variances in this statistic on a regional basis. I also live in a state (IN) with a high rate of obesity (yeah I know that word SUCKS), and I think it may very well make a difference. 

I was trying to find some actual numbers online and didn't find that much. Here is a link to a recent scientific article that states: "never married women are obese at a rate 2.3 times the rate for similar men (49.0% compared to
16.7%), differences which are highly significant statistically (note the 95% confidence bands)."
(Sven E Wilson. Marriage, gender and obesity in later life. Economics and Human Biology 10 (2012) 431&#8211;453.)





superodalisque said:


> some guys do misrepresent and overstate their feelings in a big way to the point that it is way beyond the pale. i can't tell you how many over the top overtures have been made to me over the years online. i've heard it all from folks who never met you telling you how much their family will like you in a pointed way and talking about having babies with you and moving you to where they are. i _know_ women are not making this stuff up. it's not unusual at all. they will say just about anything to somebody they don't even know and have never met including talking about marriage and everything else. and if they are ever taken seriously and it gets out they tell everyone that the person is crazy unbalanced and stupid. the sad thing is lot of women go right along with him in beating the poor woman up and treating her like the dumb liar he says she is until he does it to them.
> 
> there are also women who have what i call a party personae. they try to act like being used makes no difference or that they don't care. but underneath the wild devil may care party mask they are often very angry depressed and negative. if it was working for them why are they so pissed off and sarcastic? the women i know who are truly okay with casual sex don't even have to talk about it and you'd never know because they aren't trying to impress anyone--just dong their thing. but there is something suspicious about women who have to make a big show of something so simple as having sex. it's odd that for someone who doesn't care they are some of the first women who get angry if the guy doesn't pay them the attention they expected.
> 
> i think the community does encourage women to pretend they are hardened. after all it makes it a whole lot easier for people who don't want to face up to the people they hurt to encourage women to slut shame each other and keep their secrets. they also encourage other women to brand you a slut shamer if you dare even pretend that some women wanted to be treated with any kind of respect or long term intention and a lot of otherwise well balanced women buy into and go along with that too.
> 
> there are also some women who get truly embarrassed and blame themselves for being "stupid". but that is not where the blame lies. they aren't stupid. the person who did that to them is. so it's easier for them to pretend that was what they intended--a quick meaningless roll in the hay. it's safer to have or pretend to have low or no expectations then you don't have to be vulnerable or get hurt.



Well this is all very interesting background info and seems to tell us that the fat community has quite some ways to progress. I had suggested a different paradigm is perhaps needed, and I really liked what you said in the prior post about the concept of small groups of people getting together in alternative venues versus the night club/dance environment.

"people would be surprised at how many men would really like the chance to have a simple night with a bunch of friends just so they could get to know them and would be perfectly happy going back to their rooms alone at night. once i was talking about a getaway for like minded people before and people brought up things like campfires, board games mudding fishing etc... just normal people getting to know each other for who were and actually doing fun things together."


And to the extent that online environments like Dimensions can facilitate the exchange of ideas and learning about each other that is so valuable, well we can hope it is playing a useful role.


----------



## chunkeymonkey

If people were truly honest about what they really want whether it be online or in real things would be so much easier. I have gone to events as a BBW single and as a married BBW. What I have experienced is interesting. When I was a young single BBW with confidence issues I remember going to an event and quickly eying up the competition. There were always way more women then men by far. Honestly for myself I would also eye up the room and you know when you're interested in someone right away there is that physical attraction. Next you run down your possibilities and go from there and hope you click. I can honestly say sometimes when I was with a group of girls I felt like no matter what it was about putting that notch up and scoring. Now if it ended up as a second date WOW even better. I think I was also self conscious with being a bbw and what was going through the guys head when he would say I was beautiful and not being able to see it through his eyes as if he really meant it or just saying it as a token thanks.

Now what I learned years later: once I learned to love myself and accept my body the way I was meant to be naturally, I could go out have fun and walk away with great conversation and feel good. Maybe I gave off a much different vibe. I did find Mr. Right and got married. HAHA been together 17 years so either he is a sucker for punishment or it was meant to be. We went to a few BBW Bashes which was interesting because I walked in to the event with my husband and was eyed up by the whole room. I did have fun but spent a lot of time in the bathroom being asked how I found my husband and where they could find someone like him. When I left I had a couple of girls phone numbers who were single girls looking for a mate. The next event rolled around and as I talked to these girls they would tell me they had a guy friend they could use for a ride and that they expected him to not only pay for their food but their way in. They never had any intention of doing anything with him except using him for what they needed. Including if one hooked up that they would expect him to stick around until they were done and still give them a ride home.
We went to another venue with a different crowd where as a new person you were left out or kind of awkward because people had their established cliques. 

Dimensions is great to meet different people however unless people are truthful again it can turn into a real awkward situation on knowing what peoples true intentions are. Some sit back hiding in the shadows lurking, some come on and introduce themselves but feel like they have been surrounded by a pack of wolves and now play dead. I started going back through some of those really old threads and realizing people moved on but by the same token, i had left myself for work and just got busy. I would love to be able to hang out with many folks here in real life. I love the idea of a place where like minded people have a fun safe place to truly enjoy each others' company with out feeling judged. Who's up for some camping????


----------



## Tracyarts

" Tracy, that is an interesting point. While the overall national statistics do show a lower likelihood of being married with increased weight (perhaps the word paucity is overstating the issue), one has to wonder about variances in this statistic on a regional basis. I also live in a state (IN) with a high rate of obesity (yeah I know that word SUCKS), and I think it may very well make a difference. "

I think there's a difference. At least anecdotally I've noticed one. There are a LOT of fat people in this part of TX. And I don't mean mostly people who are technically overweight "by the scale" but look pretty much average. But those who are visibly fat, so midsized to supersized. Young people, middle aged people, and older people.


----------



## superodalisque

Tracyarts said:


> " Like I've said, I feel quite unhappy over the apparent continuing paucity of healthy long-term relationships between fat women and the men who are attracted to them. "
> 
> Outside of the fat community?
> 
> Because where I live, the fat women I know through my day to day life aren't any less likely to be in a healthy long-term relationship than a non-fat woman. If they want something long-term. And those that aren't interested in that don't have any trouble finding casual partners either.
> 
> Maybe because I live in a part of the country where there are a lot of fat people in general?
> 
> Tracy




i've lived all over the country and absolutely everywhere i've lived nearly all of the fat women i've known have been married or in relationships. where i work now i have tons of fat coworkers. i don't know one who is not either married or in some kind of relationship.


----------



## ScreamingChicken

Tracyarts said:


> " Tracy, that is an interesting point. While the overall national statistics do show a lower likelihood of being married with increased weight (perhaps the word paucity is overstating the issue), one has to wonder about variances in this statistic on a regional basis. I also live in a state (IN) with a high rate of obesity (yeah I know that word SUCKS), and I think it may very well make a difference. "
> 
> I think there's a difference. At least anecdotally I've noticed one. There are a LOT of fat people in this part of TX. And I don't mean mostly people who are technically overweight "by the scale" but look pretty much average. But those who are visibly fat, so midsized to supersized. Young people, middle aged people, and older people.



I'll back up Tracy's observation. We live in the same part of TX and I see the landscape exactly as she does. Lots of midsize and supersize folks with a broad range of ages. and lots of folks either married or in a relationship or happily playing the dating scene.


----------



## superodalisque

waldo said:


> Tracy, that is an interesting point. While the overall national statistics do show a lower likelihood of being married with increased weight (perhaps the word paucity is overstating the issue), one has to wonder about variances in this statistic on a regional basis. I also live in a state (IN) with a high rate of obesity (yeah I know that word SUCKS), and I think it may very well make a difference.
> 
> I was trying to find some actual numbers online and didn't find that much. Here is a link to a recent scientific article that states: "never married women are obese at a rate 2.3 times the rate for similar men (49.0% compared to
> 16.7%), differences which are highly significant statistically (note the 95% confidence bands)."
> (Sven E Wilson. Marriage, gender and obesity in later life. Economics and Human Biology 10 (2012) 431453.)



i'd love to look at the links to those studies. i have a problem with the idea since the logic doesn't make sense for me. because:

-are never married women more likely to be unmarried because they are obese or obese because they've never been married. it could be that unmarried women may not feel the pressure to be thin and are more likely to indulge themselves in food.

-also you need an age breakdown to determine:

a)if people were actually fat when the were at the typical measurable 
age.

b)-generational differences with women who were of marriageable age 
during wartime when the loss of marriageable men was high

c) at what point in age they were measured for obesity since people 
tend to weigh more as they age. if it's early then how could you say 
someone is indeed a lifetime single if you are only measuring them at 
say age 35? or at any point before they're basically dead?

-how many of the women are lesbians and actually could not get married

-how many simply chose not to get married for political or personal views 

-who could not get married for occupational reasons-- nuns etc...

-women have a tendency to be more likely to be obese than men anyway
(they do after all biologically tend to have the ability to make and hold more 
fat) how dos variable contribute to the statistic.

*there are so many problems with that stat that don't account for the conclusion that being fat actually causes you to be single.* and since nearly half of the population qualifies for obesity anyway it does not follow in any sense that obesity is actually responsible for women being single only that these lifetime singles are obese at a higher rate. that is definitely not the same thing.

women who have been single over their lifetimes are obese. therefore obesity causes a woman to be single over her entire lifetime? um no.


i wish i could draw a venn diagram for that conclusion because it is a big fail. there aren't even enough premises connecting the two ideas.


----------



## superodalisque

i've lived in texas before for a while, now florida. i've also lived in MA, PA, MO,AL, GA. though i've lived mainly in the south i didn't find any of my fat friends to be less likely to have relationships or marriages in MA, PA,and MO.


----------



## Webmaster

I always wonder why you choose to make your writing less readable by refusing to use upper and lower case. It's irritating and if there's a point to it, it's probably lost to most.


----------



## KHayes666

Webmaster said:


> I always wonder why you choose to make your writing less readable by refusing to use upper and lower case. It's irritating and if there's a point to it, it's probably lost to most.



At least her sentences are spelled correctly. Some of the other folks on here I can't translate the drivel that they type due to breathtaking poor grammar.


----------



## superodalisque

KHayes666 said:


> At least her sentences are spelled correctly. Some of the other folks on here I can't translate the drivel that they type due to breathtaking poor grammar.



oh i spell like crap too. typonese is my language


----------



## waldo

superodalisque said:


> i'd love to look at the links to those studies. i have a problem with the idea since the logic doesn't make sense for me. because:
> 
> -are never married women more likely to be unmarried because they are obese or obese because they've never been married. it could be that unmarried women may not feel the pressure to be thin and are more likely to indulge themselves in food.
> 
> -also you need an age breakdown to determine:
> 
> a)if people were actually fat when the were at the typical measurable
> age.
> 
> b)-generational differences with women who were of marriageable age
> during wartime when the loss of marriageable men was high
> 
> c) at what point in age they were measured for obesity since people
> tend to weigh more as they age. if it's early then how could you say
> someone is indeed a lifetime single if you are only measuring them at
> say age 35? or at any point before they're basically dead?
> 
> -how many of the women are lesbians and actually could not get married
> 
> -how many simply chose not to get married for political or personal views
> 
> -who could not get married for occupational reasons-- nuns etc...
> 
> -women have a tendency to be more likely to be obese than men anyway
> (they do after all biologically tend to have the ability to make and hold more
> fat) how dos variable contribute to the statistic.
> 
> *there are so many problems with that stat that don't account for the conclusion that being fat actually causes you to be single.* and since nearly half of the population qualifies for obesity anyway it does not follow in any sense that obesity is actually responsible for women being single only that these lifetime singles are obese at a higher rate. that is definitely not the same thing.
> 
> women who have been single over their lifetimes are obese. therefore obesity causes a woman to be single over her entire lifetime? um no.
> 
> 
> i wish i could draw a venn diagram for that conclusion because it is a big fail. there aren't even enough premises connecting the two ideas.




"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
<Benjamin Disraeli>

That being said there seems a multitude of statistical research over the last 20 years supporting the conclusion that a person's desirability in the 'marriage market' is inversely proportional to BMI. So while the correlation between being obese and a significantly higher rate of never having been married does not prove causation, other related research does support the premise. It's what I would call overwhelming circumstantial evidence. In the study in question, the people polled were approximately 3k each of men and women in the age group 50-70. Since the weight of these people at a younger age was not taken into account, that is a confounding factor. But since obesity tends to be a persistent condition for most people (set point anyone ?), we can assume quite a number of these individuals were heavy for the greater portion of their adult lives. 

Another consideration is that not only do fatter people have a higher likelihood of being unmarried, but that they are more likely to marry partners who are less 'desirable' to others in the marriage market.

Here is a relevant passage from a 2011 article in the journal Sex Roles
(Janna L. Fikkan & Esther D. Rothblum Is Fat a Feminist Issue? Exploring the Gendered Nature of Weight Bias 2011 Sex Roles, published online 19 June 2011):
"Findings consistently show that women who are fat have lower rates of both cohabitation (Mukhopadhyay 2008) and marriage (Averett and Korenman 1996; Averett et al. 2008; Conley and Glauber 2007; Fu and Goldman 1996) than thinner women and that, when they do marry, tend to marry partners with lower levels of education (Garn et al. 1989a; b), lower earnings (Averett and Korenman 1996; Conley and Glauber 2007, of shorter stature (Oreffice and Quintana-Domeque 2010) and less physical attractiveness (Carmalt et al. 2008) than do thinner women, whereas these effects are either less or not observed at all for mens weight.
Thus, for fat women, heterosexual romantic relationships are yet another domain in which they fare worse, primarily because men are both more focused on, and critical of, the weight of their female partners, which may stem, in part, from the negative social judgment leveled at men who are associated with fat women (Hebl and Mannix 2003). The potential outcomes for fat women range from being excluded entirely from desired relationships, to forming relationships with less desirable partners, to the extreme case of being targeted as easy marks for sexual conquest (Gailey and Prohaska 2006; Prohaska and Gailey 2009)."

Here is a link to a classic article from 1993 in which a younger cohort was studied (16-24 yr old at baseline and then followed up 7 yr later)
Steven L. Gortmaker, Aviva Must, James M. Perrin, Arthur M. Sobol, and [William H. Dietz Social and Economic Consequences of Overweight in Adolescence and Young Adulthood N Engl J Med 1993; 329:1008-1012]
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199309303291406#t=articleTop

At the 7 yr follow-up, fat women were an average of about 20 % less likely to have married than their thin counterparts. For fat men the reduction in marriage was an average of about 11%. Of course this study is a bit old so the numbers may be different if repeated more recently.

So overall, I think you have to concede there is a hindrance at least to some extent for fat people successfully 'gettin' hitched'. The extent to which this is a problem and the reasons for the situation are not exactly defined. Is this situation getting better? Probably. Certainly , we can all bring forward a lot of anecdotal 'evidence' from our personal experiences that there is no problem or it is better than it was. But anecdotal evidence is not necessarily more reliable than scientific statistics in telling the true picture.


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## superodalisque

you are right that the studies support the premise but most importantly the premise ( and more than one is required in an kind of logical argument anyway) does not support the conclusion. 

"overwhelming circumstantial evidence" is not real evidence and definitely not fact.

obesity has not been proven to be a persistent disease since social conditions and the availability of food in various generations have differed. for instance lifestyle due to a change in technology hormonal additives to beef and milk have varied over time. there is no real proof that the people who are fat today are predetermined to be the weight they are today since these variables have also not been accounted for and cannot be accounted for in previous generations. 

set points are also not permanent and in fact are liable to move up for most people especially the older we get. the movement of that set point would be highly unlikely to be evident in most people at the young age group one of the studies included. a person might usually be one weight but get fatter over time, the set point can change in an upward direction if the diet changes or if they experience some kind of scarcity diet. so set points have nothing to do with a predetermined weight which can never vary. they change due to the effects of social conditions ( the invention of the car led to less walking, t.v.s and computers led to less of the active socializing outside of the home) and the impact of diet( and dieting) the availability of quantities and types of food and their effects on the metabolism. 

as for the data on less attractive spouses that also may not be due exclusively due to weight or male choice. it could for some period and some individuals due to social pressure etc... and it might also be about who fat women choose and how they feel about the worth of human beings outside of the the material because they have experienced discrimination and may value actual affection more than social status and also whether they even take overtures from more "attractive" men seriously at all. 

also there is no age break down of these women either since lookism racism social fear etc... tends to start breaking down after a certain age. and it's interesting that none of the studies have truly looked at an entire lifetime for these single women. partnering does not stop at 30 or 35. how can anyone possibly say someone was never married if they only follow them until age 35? i agree that societal norms can have some impact but i doubt seriously that is has as much of an impact as the articles seem to suggest when you take an entire lifetime into account. also it does not prove any true direct relationship. we also have to realize that the studies also have their own innate social biases and assumptions that affect and inform the work.

here is something that i read by Tom Butler -Bowden that describes Thomas Kuhn's position on science and how it works:

*The basis of joining any scientific community is the study of it's paradigm. and the vast majority of scientists will spend their lives working on things within that paradigm: smaller puzzles that need to be solved, or incremental research. Alternatively, they work to produce findings that can bring nature and the theory/paradigm closer together, as many scientists did in the wake of Newtons's Principia. Normal science is:

"...an attempt to force nature into the performed and relatively inflexible box that the paradigm supplies. No part of the aim of normal science is to call forth new sets of phenomena; indeed those that will not fit the box are often not seen at all."

Thomas Kuhn
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions

...Thus the main aim of normal science is not to find something new, but to make the existing paradigm more precise, to bring nature into perfect accord with theory.*

*and this is why there is no accounting for women who are lesbians ,women who don't like the institution of marriage, feminists, women who might be nuns, women who might be deeply involved in careers and women who get married outside of the traditional marriage years because they all fall outside of the assumptions of the current popular paradigm regarding obesity.
*
the scientific paradigm Kuhn talks about reminds me a lot of the fat paradigm that keeps popping up in traditional medicine regarding diabetes. obesity is said to contribute to diabetes. yet, most people who have diabetes, even type 2, are not obese and it has been well documented that diabetes itself and it's treatments can cause weight gain, however none of that is noted when the connection between obesity and diabetes is discussed. this premise which has no connection to any dependable conclusion reminds me of that diabetes paradigm. there are too any holes in the argument and too many unaccounted for variables on top of a lot of social assumptions.


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## superodalisque

here is a bit more recent study that i found:

*Abstract
Married individuals tend to be heavier than those who are Gender, Ethnicity, Marital Status, and Body Weight in the United States

Jeffery Sobal1,*, Karla L. Hanson1, Edward A. Frongillo2
Article first published online: 6 SEP 2012

DOI: 10.1038/oby.2009.64

2009 North American Association for the Study of Obesity (NAASO)

Obesity
Volume 17, Issue 12, pages 2223&#8211;2231, December 2009
*


unmarried, particularly men, and individuals in different ethnic categories vary in their involvement in marriage and in their body weights. We examined gender and ethnic differences in relationships between marital status and body weight using cross-sectional data from the 1999&#8211;2002 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) for 3,947 women and 4,019 men. The findings revealed that compared to married men in the same ethnic category, white divorced men, black never-married men, and all Hispanic men except for widows had lower odds of being overweight. Compared to married women in the same ethnic category, *white women's weights did not significantly differ by marital status*, black separated women had greater odds of being overweight, and Hispanic never-married women had lower odds of being overweight. Associations of marriage with body weight appear to be at least partly contingent upon gender and ethnicity, which may reflect larger societal patterns of involvement in marriage, commitment to family, and body-weight norms and expectations.

Overall, we hypothesize that *married individuals will be at greater risk for overweight than their unmarried counterparts.* *The risk of overweight among never-married men and women, and those who exited a marriage through separation or divorce are expected to be equivalent.* Widows, on the other hand, experience a unique and often sudden marital exit and are expected to have risk for overweight that mirrors their married counterparts. In contrast to overweight,* we hypothesize that the more extreme body weight measure of obesity is unrelated to marital status.[/COLOR]*


*Among women, there were no significant relationships between marital status and overweight after adjusting for demographic characteristics. *Including health behaviors did not alter this result. *Obesity among women did vary by marital category, with cohabiting and divorced women less likely to be obese than married women only when demographic characteristics were included in the regression model.* The addition of health behaviors to this regression model attenuated these significant results, and marital category was no longer associated with obesity. Overall, this table suggests that mediating behaviors explained little of marriage&#8211;weight relationships among men and women and further regression models here include only adjustment for the demographic characteristics of respondents.


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## Ample Pie

chicken legs said:


> Its one thing to express a form of Feminism ..protecting women, equality, etc. However, please don't confuse that with misandry..man-child, bumbling, "when FA's miss the mark"..etc... because that retards the Feminist movement. Showing hatred towards either gender doesn't help anyone. Misandry and misogeny are the two sides to gender hating coin, and battling misogeny with misandry doesn't help gender equality.
> 
> Guys wonder why they can't find a decent women..well maybe they show signs of misogeny and women avoid them like the plague.
> 
> Women wonder why they can't find a decent man...well maybe they show signs of misandry and men avoid them like the plague.



Also, misandry isn't real.


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## bigmac

chunkeymonkey said:


> ...
> 
> I talked to these girls they would tell me they had a guy friend they could use for a ride and that they expected him to not only pay for their food but their way in. They never had any intention of doing anything with him except using him for what they needed. Including if one hooked up that they would expect him to stick around until they were done and still give them a ride home.
> 
> ...



This happens outside the BBW scene too. It happened to me once back in high school. I took a girl to a party at a lake. She went off with another guy and was getting busy in a tent. Luckily one of my friends gave me a dope slap and I left without her. The guy in the tent refused to give her a ride home. She had to call her parents from the park pay phone at 4:00 am. I figured she'd be mad at me, but on Monday morning she couldn't apologize enough. Lesson learned -- don't be a doormat.


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## ToniTails

it's the natural flux and flow as people, place, and things age- there are always big changes that seem sudden but have really been slowly boiling frogs lolled out of ribbitting until too late... the cool thing is that the natural flux n flow also includes a return to all that once was at some point, so there's always that light at the end of the tunnel


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## moonvine

Tracyarts said:


> " Like I've said, I feel quite unhappy over the apparent continuing paucity of healthy long-term relationships between fat women and the men who are attracted to them. "
> 
> Outside of the fat community?
> 
> Because where I live, the fat women I know through my day to day life aren't any less likely to be in a healthy long-term relationship than a non-fat woman. If they want something long-term. And those that aren't interested in that don't have any trouble finding casual partners either.
> 
> Maybe because I live in a part of the country where there are a lot of fat people in general?
> 
> Tracy



Maybe. I lived in Austin for what 12 years or more and the exact opposite was true. I also went to fat events in Houston for a while and they seemed like fat events anywhere else. Maybe 1 man to every 10 women on a good night and lots of competition for the men who were there. Though I will say when I was single casual partners were not difficult to find. That is not what I wanted but they were everywhere. What was difficult to find would be someone who would be seen with me in public.


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## superodalisque

moonvine said:


> Maybe. I lived in Austin for what 12 years or more and the exact opposite was true. I also went to fat events in Houston for a while and they seemed like fat events anywhere else. Maybe 1 man to every 10 women on a good night and lots of competition for the men who were there. Though I will say when I was single casual partners were not difficult to find. That is not what I wanted but they were everywhere. What was difficult to find would be someone who would be seen with me in public.



bu tit might be a mistake to judge all fat folk by what goes on in the fat community. and, as far as married people go there are so many demands on fat and thin married people that they all have to split up most of the time to get everything done. and a lot of people in serious relationships don't go out clubbing very much anyway. i know when i'm committed i don't spend nearly anywhere as much time out. we tend t do things together at each other's place-- these are guys who had absolutely no trouble going out in public. most of my thin friends in relatonships don't spend that much time out either.


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## wrestlingguy

I think it gets down to how people are, both in and out of relationships. I like being out. I work in sales, I'm on the road all day (literally), so when Lissa and I have the weekends, we go out. When it's us and the kids, we still go out, but do family type things.....soccer, movies, music festivals, softball.

Some people are more stay at home, and when one begins dating, it's important to distinguish the difference between someone who is more of a homebody, and someone who doesn't want to be seen with a fat girl.


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## ashmamma84

moonvine said:


> Maybe. I lived in Austin for what 12 years or more and the exact opposite was true. I also went to fat events in Houston for a while and they seemed like fat events anywhere else. Maybe 1 man to every 10 women on a good night and lots of competition for the men who were there. Though I will say when I was single casual partners were not difficult to find. That is not what I wanted but they were everywhere. What was difficult to find would be someone who would be seen with me in public.



I haven't lived in Austin, but was there a few months ago and I can see how dating while fat in Austin would prove more difficult, because to me, that city is an outlier of TX in many ways. It seems to be more health conscious, what with everyone walking, biking, etc and an emphasis on locally grown organic, healthy fare in a way I haven't really seen in other TX cities like Dallas, Ft. Worth, Arlington, Houston, etc.


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## waldo

ashmamma84 said:


> I haven't lived in Austin, but was there a few months ago and I can see how dating while fat in Austin would prove more difficult, because to me, that city is an outlier of TX in many ways. It seems to be more health conscious, what with everyone walking, biking, etc and an emphasis on locally grown organic, healthy fare in a way I haven't really seen in other TX cities like Dallas, Ft. Worth, Arlington, Houston, etc.



Yes my understanding is that Austin is kind of an 'oasis' of liberalism in the sea of conservatism that is Texas, and I could see maybe the attitude toward fatness being somewhat tied in with that. Not that I am trying to link conservatism and liberalism with anti-fat, or fat-friendly attitudes. 

I recall a few years back, Sandy Zitkus describing the 'breath of fresh air' when moving from (pretty sure it was Colorado, which happens to have the lowest obesity rate) to somewhere in Texas and how much more generally accepting people seemed. Not sure what is going on over there but Texas is an interesting place it seems.

Sandy you out there reading this and care to comment ??


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