# Joints and Jogging



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 6, 2008)

My girlfriend was in marching band, did ballet (among other dancing), and color-guard (don't know what it is? look it up, its pretty cool).

Anyway, she has numerous (at 23 I didn't think it was possible, but I haven't pushed my body for years on end relentlessly like she does) joint problems. First of all, her hips pop if she tries to do a split, or get up from a sitting position on a low chair really fast. Her knees, and ankles also crack similarly, though for different reasons and because of different things. She has problems with her shins, and her feet tend to cramp rather easily. 

That said, she is a size 8-10, and she...like most girls I've known in ballet...worries about having a muffin-top, or her middle moving too much. She knows my preferences, she knows my likes, and she knows I don't care, and that I like it. However, she isn't comfortable with it, because she has the perception of herself still being 40lbs heavier like she was in college. I don't know the whole psychology behind it...*

So, she wants to tone up, and she wants to stop smoking, and she wants to become healthier...not necessarily losing more weight, so much as toning and firming up from having lost 40 pounds. (She's 5'6" 150 right now) But in the past she's had problems jogging, running, doing anything cardio because of her joints. 
I was just wondering if there is any way to do what she wants to do without causing more problems in her joints? 
Is there any way to strengthen her joints?
Is there anything she can do to reverse any damage done?
And is there any way she can learn to tone and increase her cardiovascular abilities, WITHOUT hurting herself?


*-Note: I do not want to fatten her up, convince her to fatten up, get her to blimp up, make her see things my way, or anything in that vein. She likes that I like her curves, she also likes that I was willing and able to help her out. I'd love to get her to see that she really isn't as big as she thinks, but I'm not going to push her because she is stubborn. I also know that I want her to be healthy, and I know because of the budget she is currently on with her financial situation, in combination with her dream job, likely she'll put on weight anyway. So I'm just looking for her to be healthy and happy, and if the rest comes, cool. If not, I still love her, end of story, and I'm not going to let my preference haunt her every decision. I also will not bitch, whine, or moan about her being WHO SHE IS. I chose to love her for her. End of Story.


----------



## Eclectic_Girl (Jan 6, 2008)

Anything in the water is great for the joints. Swimming, water aerobics, water tai chi, etc. The cardio impact comes from working against the water's resistance (which is an all-over thing) rather than against gravity (which makes the joints work harder).

Also, she might try glucosamine chondroitin supplements for protecting/rebuilding joint tissue.


----------



## AnnMarie (Jan 6, 2008)

Eclectic_Girl said:


> Anything in the water is great for the joints. Swimming, water aerobics, water tai chi, etc. The cardio impact comes from working against the water's resistance (which is an all-over thing) rather than against gravity (which makes the joints work harder).
> 
> Also, she might try glucosamine chondroitin supplements for protecting/rebuilding joint tissue.



What she said. 

And Zain, you didn't post this on the WB, so I think the majority of that "disclaimer" was unnecessary and pre-emptively reactionary. This is the Health Board, people get the context of what you're saying.


----------



## Jes (Jan 6, 2008)

there are lots of online reference guides and book at the store and in the library to help your gf. I wouldn't take my advice about this since i'm not a PT or a trainer or even skinny.  suggest she join a gym. they have equipment, classes ans experts.


----------



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 6, 2008)

AnnMarie said:


> What she said.
> 
> And Zain, you didn't post this on the WB, so I think the majority of that "disclaimer" was unnecessary and pre-emptively reactionary. This is the Health Board, people get the context of what you're saying.



Sorry, just been talking to too many people recently who want to change their significant other selfishly, and I just wanted to make sure people understood I am doing this to try to help her out because she wants to figure it out, rather than I want her to do something for me.


----------



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 6, 2008)

Eclectic_Girl said:


> Anything in the water is great for the joints. Swimming, water aerobics, water tai chi, etc. The cardio impact comes from working against the water's resistance (which is an all-over thing) rather than against gravity (which makes the joints work harder).
> 
> Also, she might try glucosamine chondroitin supplements for protecting/rebuilding joint tissue.



Thanks, I'll tell her and see what she has to say.


----------



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 6, 2008)

Jes said:


> there are lots of online reference guides and book at the store and in the library to help your gf. I wouldn't take my advice about this since i'm not a PT or a trainer or even skinny.  suggest she join a gym. they have equipment, classes ans experts.



Cool, I'll look into it.


----------



## Max_C (Jan 7, 2008)

If she's willing to put in the time, home made broths are one of the best methods for attempting to rebuilt joint tissue. See the recipes section on this page for some good ones:

http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/broth.html

Additionally, there are supplements if she's interested.

If she insists on jogging, I have an unorthodoxed method for protecting the joints in the lower body. Don't wear shoes. I know it sounds crazy, but what happens is this... 

When you jog wearing shoes, you instinctively land on your heels. Each landing sends a shock wave up your leg that the body wasn't designed to deal with repeatedly.

Now, take those shoes off and the same person will begin landing on the ball of their foot, thus using using the ankle as a spring/shock absorber for the rest of the leg.

Obviously the problem with this method is... it hurts! At least, it does until the bottom of your feet toughen up.  I've heard of people using water shoes and achieving similar results.

Max.


----------



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 8, 2008)

Max_C said:


> If she's willing to put in the time, home made broths are one of the best methods for attempting to rebuilt joint tissue. See the recipes section on this page for some good ones:
> 
> http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/broth.html
> 
> ...



Well, the recipies sound interesting, and since she cooks amazingly, I'll suggest them to her.

As for the jogging without shoes...she lives in sandals, so her feet are tough enough on the bottom...BUT

She has problems with her ankles and feet too...so unfortunately I don't think she'd be able to try that...though I think I might


----------



## Tad (Jan 8, 2008)

A few quick thoughts (my wife had wrecked ankles and knees by the time she was twenty, so I have some experience with this):

- There are different ways that knees in particular can be bad. So not everyones else's 'this helped my knees' story will help her. My wife has a lack of cartilage on the inside of her knee cap, so on impact the leg bones grind against the knee cap. This is one common problem, but there are other ones where the various ligaments are damaged and the knee is more 'loose' than it should be. Different problems, different solutions--although in all cases avoiding heavy stress on the knee is good.

- Improvements in joints take time, at best. So it really is a matter of learning to take care of them for life, and hope that they'll get somewhat more robust over time. It isn't something that you can just 'fix' and then go back to what you want to be normal.

- Good shoes. Really, probably the biggest thing she can do. Joints never totally heal to good-as-new state, but your body will patch-together, strengthen other things to compensate, and so on, given a chance. So good shoes to reduce the shock on her joints will honestly help. If you can't get her into Doc Martens or equivalent, at least look at really good insoles for her shoes (like "SuperFeet"). I'm not just talking for exercising in, I'm talking for regular wear. And oh yah, a lot of sandals are brutal in this regard, but I'm sure there must be good sandals out there somewhere? Anyone else know about that?

- That running techique is called 'toe-striking' sometimes. There was a briefly famous female runner from South Africa, who was gold winner in (I think) the 1500 metres at the olympics a decade or two ago who ran barefoot, and was a toe-striker. But you don't have to go barefoot to toe strike, although it is hard in really thick runners. The thing is, it does not stress the ankles in the same way that a lot of things do--mostly it is tough on the calf muscles from my experience (I do this sometimes, if I'm having knee or foot problems, and just because it is a different way to make my body work).

- biking! Just make sure she uses the gears, rather than pushing in a higher gear, especially on hills. 

- most of these problems aggravate themselves. That is, when the joint is stressed too much, the damaged areas get inflamed, and then more painful and more apt to get more hurt. So whenever things are flaring up, she needs to get extra careful, ice it if possible a few times a day for a few days (bags of frozen vegetables work just fine for this, don't need anything fancy), and maybe take some anti-inflammatories (aspirin or at most ibuprofen). Note: more isn't always better, so don't exceed recommended doses, and of course consult with a doctor before taking anything on a regular basis. 

- related to the above, joints are not like muscles. Don't ignore pain! It is the flag that the joint is being damaged. Also, the sorts of heat treatments and massages that work well on sore muscles are generally not good for joints. There may be exceptions, but I'd talk to a physiotherapist before using anything other than ice, aspirin, and elevation.

Best of luck to both of you! I can report that over the years my wife's ankles and knees have gotten a lot better, and these days she bikes or walks miles daily with no problems.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 8, 2008)

Running shoes are part of the problem. It is extremely hard to utilize the anatomically correct toe strike running technique when today's conventional running shoe has as much as a 2 inch lift in the heel. If you insist on using running shoes, buy a pair of Nike Free Trails, or the Reebok equivalent. Or even better, buy a pair of Five Finger Vibrams.

Now, while I do not know the condition of your girlfriends knees, I do know that foam rolling, to induce self-myofascial release, will benefit anyone's mobility, flexibility, stability, soft tissue quality, and joint health.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 8, 2008)

Another thing that has been shown to decrease the inflammation in joints is fish oil. Taking a supplement that would provide at least 1000mg of DHA would be most beneficial.


----------



## Max_C (Jan 8, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Another thing that has been shown to decrease the inflammation in joints is fish oil. Taking a supplement that would provide at least 1000mg of DHA would be most beneficial.



That's a great suggestion. If you don't like fishy tasting oil, but also don't like the price of fish oil capsules (they typically cost 4 to 10 times as much per serving) you can try Carlson's Lemon flavored Cod Liver Oil. It has no fishy flavor at all.

If you're looking for the highest quality with no synthetic additives and high in vitamins A and D (also great for weight control and all around good health) Garden of Life Lemon Mint flavor is a good choice. Amazon.com is the cheapest place I've found it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001VKXYG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It has more of a fishy flavor... but I like it better because it's less processed than the Carlson's... and certain Carlson's products contain synthetic vitamins.

Plus, as I posted before, a high quality cod liver oil can do wonders for depression. Be aware, though, not all cod liver oils are created equal. There are many that can do more harm than good.

Max.


----------



## love dubh (Jan 9, 2008)

Strength Training! Strength Training! Strength Training! It cannot be said enough.

First and forement, let me make some some referrals:

- www dot stumptuous dot com. Click on "Iron." It's a women-centric weight-training website, and gives tons of information on getting started in training, weight-lifting myths, nutrition, proper form (oh so important!), and user stories of their own journeys in weight lifting.

- the LJ communities called "gymrats," "female_muscle," and "sturdybitches." Gymrats would be the best. Loooooads of info there and even posts on stuff like "what do you guys pack for lunches when on the go?"

- exrx dot net. It's an encyclopedia of fitness, with videos showing how to properly execute exercises. Very good stuff!

We're about the same size, your girlfriend and I. I also have crunchy knees, and all sorts of annoyances. THANKS, CROSS COUNTRY! If she starts slow, relatively light, and with proper form, she can improve her joint health. 

Weight lifting improves bone density, increases muscle mass, increases metabolism, and gives you the ability to lift some heavy shit. Contrary to popular belief, it *improves* flexibility and balance. You need those two attributes, lest you fall on your ass doing a squat.

Also, she won't get HYUUUUGE from resistance training without "accidentally" falling on a needle full of androgens, so get that silly thought of your brain (if it's there!). It will give her a body she will be proud of and strength, and who doesn't want that? Saying she'll wake up like Ahnold the next morning also insults those men and women who work very hard for the muscles they carry. Aaaaanyhoo, beyond that little disclaimer...

Unlike cardio, the gains from weight training are pretty immediate. Also, doing 9000 repetitions with a 1lb weight will get her nowhere but frustrated. Anyway, she'll notice that lifting that shopping bag gets easier, that squatting down to pick up a 50lb bag of dog food is easy-peasy.

Encorporating weight lifting into your life isn't brain surgery, either. She can join a gym or the YMCA, but make sure that they have a variety of free weights, not just a ton of machines. She'd probably be too small for them anyway. I know I can't use a leg press, too short. 

If that doesn't work, purchasing weights one at a time won't break the bank. At 65cents per pound, a barbell of 5lbs will set you back...what...3 bucks and some change? A bench is like 100 bucks. These can all be purchased in pieces, too. If she's feeling creative, she can make her own medicine ball with a basketball, some sand, and duct tape. 


So, yes. Lift! We women must be up and doing.  Good on you, Zain, for being proactive in helping her. You two could hit the gym together, too.

You can pass her on to me if she'd like a buddy to talk to, too.


----------



## k1009 (Jan 9, 2008)

I second the strength training. I've been doing light cardio all through my fatness (swimming) and while I've no doubt it's been good for me, since starting with a trainer who lives for all sorts of fancy workouts with free weights and using my own body as resistance I feel as healthy as I did when I was a constantly active, not as greedy 15 year old. It's just that good.

Getting a personal trainer is what makes the difference I think. A lot of the machine weights are not really that comfortable for me and my trainer shows me how to do exercises correctly so as not to hurt myself. It's pricey but if you have any health concerns springing even for a few sessions is a better idea than striking out on your own. My situation isn't the same as your girlfriend's, but my trainer told me that the exercises she used for me initially are the same ones she uses for people with arthritis and other mobility concerns. 

As for low impact cardio, has she tried the elliptical machine? I'm not really a fan (it doesn't feel like exercise so I tend to get a bit annoyed, set resistance quiet high and then wonder why I'm too sore to walk after 30 minutes. doh.) but they're the most popular cardio machines at my gym, which just goes to show how much I know . Best thing is that there's no impact on the joints so it's a really good thing for people who might find treadmills too much.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 9, 2008)

Good fish oil is not that hard to find. The Sam's Club brand is excellent and does not taste like anything.

I would advise against the elliptical machine. Currently, studies are coming out showing that the impact on the joints is actually higher on an elliptical machine when compared to traditional running. I would use the rowing machine. Most people could use some external rotational of the scapula anyway.

sumptuous dot com, is a pretty good site, but if you want the best, go to musclewithattitude dot com. It not only provides expert advice on fitness, but nutrition as well.


----------



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 9, 2008)

love dubh said:


> Strength Training! Strength Training! Strength Training! It cannot be said enough.
> 
> First and forement, let me make some some referrals:
> 
> ...



Haha, I actually suggested this to her. One problem though is she HATES exercise, and despite commenting to her on it before (and after) reading this, she's still opposed to the idea of working out in a gym, or at home.

I don't think she'd be adverse to it, but it would have to be through unconventional methods of weight training...and I honestly don't know how I'd get her to do it...


----------



## love dubh (Jan 9, 2008)

ZainTheInsane said:


> Haha, I actually suggested this to her. One problem though is she HATES exercise, and despite commenting to her on it before (and after) reading this, she's still opposed to the idea of working out in a gym, or at home.
> 
> I don't think she'd be adverse to it, but it would have to be through unconventional methods of weight training...and I honestly don't know how I'd get her to do it...



I can see how lifting in a gym could be boring. Do you have a wheelbarrow? She can wheel you around in it! Bench press a small child. Do handstands against the wall. Climb a tree, even, or find a place with a climbing wall - like a university's rec center. 

Have her check out this article; it addresses motivation and boredom with fitness.


----------



## LoveBHMS (Jan 9, 2008)

love dubh said:


> I can see how lifting in a gym could be boring. Do you have a wheelbarrow? She can wheel you around in it! Bench press a small child. Do handstands against the wall. Climb a tree, even, or find a place with a climbing wall - like a university's rec center.
> 
> Have her check out this article; it addresses motivation and boredom with fitness.



Good ideas, but where do I purchase a small child for exercise purposes? i called The Sports Authority and they muttered something about human trafficking.


----------



## Max_C (Jan 9, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Good fish oil is not that hard to find. The Sam's Club brand is excellent and does not taste like anything.



I honestly don't know anything about the Sams Club brand (assuming that's Member's Mark.) That being said, I would naturally be suspicious of any fish oil from Sam's or Wal-Mart, given their staunch insistence that their vendors make products as cheaply as possible.

I say that because it's much cheaper to produce fish oil supplements using high heat. Given that fish oil is highly polyunsaturated (the least stable of the fats) it is much more prone to be rancid when exposed to heat. Many of the oils that "don't taste like anything" have not only been subjected to high heat, but have also gone through deodorizing and deflavorizing processes. All of the above leaves an inferior fish oil that, if rancid, can do more harm than good.

Again, that's not to say that the problem applies to Member's Mark supplements. I'm just saying that the process used to produce the oil should be investigated before depending on the supplement to improve your health.

Oh, and the source of the fish for the oil is also very important. Cheap oils use farm raised fish, leading to a fish oil low in omega 3 fats, which is the whole reason to take fish oil in the first place.

Max.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 10, 2008)

Max_C said:


> I honestly don't know anything about the Sams Club brand (assuming that's Member's Mark.) That being said, I would naturally be suspicious of any fish oil from Sam's or Wal-Mart, given their staunch insistence that their vendors make products as cheaply as possible.
> 
> I say that because it's much cheaper to produce fish oil supplements using high heat. Given that fish oil is highly polyunsaturated (the least stable of the fats) it is much more prone to be rancid when exposed to heat. Many of the oils that "don't taste like anything" have not only been subjected to high heat, but have also gone through deodorizing and deflavorizing processes. All of the above leaves an inferior fish oil that, if rancid, can do more harm than good.
> 
> ...



I understand your concern, but whether a fish was farmed or harvested in the wild, in regards to omega-3 content, really does not matter when it is in pill form. Ideally, I would prefer wild fish, but if the farm raised fish have less naturally occurring omega-3's, then the manufactures of fish oil pills would simply have to use more farm-raised fish to meet certain DHA/EHA content specified on their bottle then if they were using wild fish.

Besides, the only fish oil I would label as absolutely pure and 100% safe is Biotest's Flameout. Of course, it is about 30 bucks for 90 pills, but the concentration of fish oil per pill is about 4 times higher.


----------



## Max_C (Jan 11, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> I understand your concern, but whether a fish was farmed or harvested in the wild, in regards to omega-3 content, really does not matter when it is in pill form. Ideally, I would prefer wild fish, but if the farm raised fish have less naturally occurring omega-3's, then the manufactures of fish oil pills would simply have to use more farm-raised fish to meet certain DHA/EHA content specified on their bottle then if they were using wild fish.
> 
> Besides, the only fish oil I would label as absolutely pure and 100% safe is Biotest's Flameout. Of course, it is about 30 bucks for 90 pills, but the concentration of fish oil per pill is about 4 times higher.



Is there a non-damaging mechanical means of separating omega 3 fatty acids from the omega 6 fatty acids in the fish oil that I'm not aware of? The whole reason to take omega 3 supplements is to try to level out omega 3 to omega 6 ratios in your intake. If you're raising your omega-3 intake, but at the same time raising your omega-6 intake, you're not doing yourself any good.

http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/hd.html
_" Another problem is that when polyunsaturated oils are consumed in large amounts, imbalances can occur that may predispose to heart disease. Research suggests that traditional diets contained from four to 10 percent of calories as polyunsaturated fatty acids with a ratio of about twice as many omega-6 fatty acids (mostly lin-oleic acid) as omega-3 fatty acids (mostly a-linolenic acid).24

Individuals who are trying to avoid saturated fats often end up with over 20 percent of calories as polyunsaturated fatty acids. The situation is further complicated by the fact that commercial vegetable oils contain mostly omega-6 fatty acids....

Many of the anti-inflammatory and clot-inhibiting prostaglandins are made from omega-3 fatty acids, of which there are very few in commercial vegetable oils, or indeed in fruits, vegetables, fish and eggs raised by modern farming methods. Thus, when the diet contains too much of omega-6 fatty acids and not enough of omega-3 fatty acids, there may be a tendency to form blood clots leading to heart attacks."_

The reason I recommend wild over farm raised is because the farm raise is most often fed grains, raising the omega 6 content of the oil.

http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/fishy.html
_"...fish fed grain instead of fish meal will be "abnormally high in omega-6 fatty acids and low in omega-3 fatty acids--not what you want."_

Max.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 11, 2008)

Max_C said:


> Is there a non-damaging mechanical means of separating omega 3 fatty acids from the omega 6 fatty acids in the fish oil that I'm not aware of? The whole reason to take omega 3 supplements is to try to level out omega 3 to omega 6 ratios in your intake. If you're raising your omega-3 intake, but at the same time raising your omega-6 intake, you're not doing yourself any good.
> Max.



Well first of all, the research does conclusively state Americans need a lot more omega-3's but whether it is the the ratio of omega-3's to omega-6's or simply meeting a minimum amount of omega-3's that is important, is still in need of further research. Regardless, my main source of omega-3's come from omega-3 supplementation in the form of pills. These pills do not contain significant amounts omega-6's.


----------



## Max_C (Jan 11, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> Well first of all, the research does conclusively state Americans need a lot more omega-3's but whether it is the the ratio of omega-3's to omega-6's or simply meeting a minimum amount of omega-3's that is important, is still in need of further research. Regardless, my main source of omega-3's come from omega-3 supplementation in the form of pills. These pills do not contain significant amounts omega-6's.



But that still doesn't answer the question of how you know those omega 3s aren't rancid. It is not enough to simply say "I'm getting enough omega 3s in my diet." If those omega 3s are rancid, they could be (and probably ARE) causing health damaging free radicals in your body.

From the book "Eat Fat Look Thin"
http://books.google.com/books?id=rF...ts=gTp3LutGbx&sig=tt4Lfp2YtOAcCn7Ck1-6A70_B-0


> "When unsaturated oils oxidize (go rancid) they generate free radicals. The more unsaturated an oil is, the more easily it oxidizes."



http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html


> "One reason the polyunsaturates cause so many health problems is that they tend to become oxidized or rancid when subjected to heat, oxygen and moisture as in cooking and processing. Rancid oils are characterized by free radicalsthat is, single atoms or clusters with an unpaired electron in an outer orbit. These compounds are extremely reactive chemically. They have been characterized as "marauders" in the body for they attack cell membranes and red blood cells and cause damage in DNA/RNA strands, thus triggering mutations in tissue, blood vessels and skin."



If you search for the words polyunsaturated and "free radicals" you'll find more information than you can read in a year.

I wish finding a good source of omega 3s were as easy as you appear to think it is... but it has been my experience that it's VERY difficult to find a supplement I can trust. Even most of the high dollar brands have problems such as I've mentioned previously.

Max.


----------



## love dubh (Jan 12, 2008)

LoveBHMS said:


> Good ideas, but where do I purchase a small child for exercise purposes? i called The Sports Authority and they muttered something about human trafficking.



Oh. Right. Pesky UNICEF! Well, I suppose she can settle for a heavy-duty sack filled with sand. Or she can bench Zain.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 12, 2008)

You could always pop open a capsule and place the oil on the back of your tongue. If it tastes bad or makes you gag, its rancid. The highest quality fish oil supplement I know of is Biotest's Flameout.


----------



## ZainTheInsane (Jan 12, 2008)

love dubh said:


> Oh. Right. Pesky UNICEF! Well, I suppose she can settle for a heavy-duty sack filled with sand. Or she can bench Zain.



HAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I'm a lot heavier than I look...and that's all I'm saying.
If we ever meet you can try to pick me up, and see how much effort it takes


----------



## Max_C (Jan 12, 2008)

comperic2003 said:


> You could always pop open a capsule and place the oil on the back of your tongue. If it tastes bad or makes you gag, its rancid. The highest quality fish oil supplement I know of is Biotest's Flameout.



As I said before... if it were only that easy. Also as I said before, most of the cheap oils have been put through a deodorizing and deflavorizing process specifically designed to trick your taste buds. This is a similar process margarine goes through. If margarine didn't undergo those processes, it'd taste so bad no one would ever consider buying it.

I'm not saying that's the case with FlameOut... just that it has been my experience that when something is hyped the way FlameOut seems to be hyped, it's because it can't stand on its own merits. I searched quite a bit to find information that would allow me to make my own decision about FlameOut, but came up short. I did run across this thread on another board, though.

http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/14156/

This particular sentence stood out in my mind:
"I don't know anything about "flame out" but it's hard to improve on Mother Nature."

Do you happen to have any links I could use to look in to FlameOut (something with real data... not the hype I've found everywhere.)

Something that bothers me from the information I *could* find on FlameOut is that none of it included any info about Vitamins A or D. It seems to be all about the EPA and DHA. Not that that's a bad thing... but vitamins A and D should naturally accompany such an oil. If the oil contains no vitamins A or D, that could be an indication that the makers of FlameOut are trying to maximize profits by artificially removing those vitamins from the oil and selling it separately... a common practice among companies more concerned about profit than producing a quality product.

Max.


----------



## comperic2003 (Jan 12, 2008)

I am assuming that by visiting the link you provided, you noticed the link for flameout. In case you did not here is the general sales pitch.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=910074

While t-nation provides dozens of articles praising fish oil, they only have one article directly related to providing information about flameout that I am aware of. Ultimately, it comes down to trust. 

I trust biotest's products for a few reasons: 1. The parent website, t-naiton, provides an enormous amount of information on diet and fitness written by world-renowned dietitians, scientists, and national and Olympic level coaches, for free. 2. People such as Charles Poliquin, Michael Boyle, Dan John, and Dr. John Berardi, are not only all contributors to the site, but use flameout themselves. 3. t-nation's articles have absolutely revolutionized my physical fitness and concept of diet; therefore, I am inclined to trust their products.

In regards to the "Hard to improve upon mother nature" thing, that is not the aim of flameout at all. Flameout simply improves upon all fish oil supplements on the market by using super-concentrated doses and adding some CLA's in there as well. I do not believe that any fish oil supplement is better than eating pure, wild fish, but unfortunately, pure and wild are expensive and hard to find.

Here is an excerpt from an article asking one of the makers of flameout a question (link provided at the bottom):

Q: Sorry if this offends you, but a friend told me that Flameout is nothing but "low grade" fish oil, and that I'd be better off just buying the stuff from the supplement aisle at the drug store. What's the story?

A: Yeah, it does offend me because it implies that Tim Patterson and I are dishonest; that we're shysters pushing an inferior product.

I know the source of that ugly slur. It's from a nutrition writer who used to write for us. I haven't published any of his recent work and now he's got a vindictive bug up his ass. No news there; I've seen this kind of thing over and over again ever since I got into this business.

But, regarding Flameout, I'm going to repeat the comparison I've made previously. Before Flameout, one of the brands I used was Natural Factor's Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil capsules that I used to buy from Whole Foods.

Each 4-capsule serving of Natural Factor's oil contains:

DHA: 280 mg.
EPA: 320 mg.

You can buy it for a little over 20 bucks.

Now let's look at a 4-capsule serving of Biotest's Flameout:

DHA: 2200 mg.
EPA: 880 mg.

That means that each equivalent-sized serving of Biotest's Flameout contains about 8 timesthe DHA and about 2.5 times the EPA content of the fish oil.

And Biotest's Flameout also contains the following amounts of two CLA isomers that aren't in the Whole Foods product:

CLA trans-10, cis-12: 212 mg.
CLA cis-9, trans-11: 180 mg.

Furthermore, Biotest's Flameout is pharmaceutical grade, which means that it's been molecularly distilled. That's the process by which oils are pulled through a vacuum in an oxygen-free and light-free environment over a hot surface. The resulting steam cleans and flushes out contaminants so that the oil is mercury free, lead free, Arsenic free, and PCB free.

All that and the cost is only four or five bucks more than the Whole Foods product. However, if we sold it on store shelves, Flameout would probably cost 60 to 90 bucks per bottle.

It is anything but low-grade.

So up yours, vindictive nutrition writer.
(http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1770378)

Sorry I could not address all of your concerns, but if you are seriously considering taking flameout, I would contact biotest or t-nation. The authors of the site are extremely receptive to questions.


----------

