# Fat Professionals



## bigmac (Mar 22, 2014)

The under representation of fat people in professional and managerial positions has been noted in other threads. An interesting thing, related to this issue, happened yesterday -- my wife was promoted to a management position where she's have fifteen people reporting directly to her. She's been applying for management positions for the last four years without any success. When she started applying for these positions she weighed almost 400 pounds. She had her second WLS eighteen months ago and now weighs 200 pounds (and looks like she weighs less as her face and upper body a now pretty much thin). For the last several months colleagues who had never said a word to her are inviting her to lunch or after work drinks (i.e. the cool kids are inviting her into their club). And yesterday, out of the blue, she was offered her promotion.

It would be nice to think that my wife's talents were finally recognized. However, it appears that what happened is that she now looks the part.


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## FatAndProud (Mar 23, 2014)

Yup. I overwhelmingly feel this way, as much as I hate to admit it.

I've been trying for two years to get a position in what I studied...my weight has come up in every interview. There's no way to prove weight discrimination with a panel of doctors and other allied health professionals. 

I'm trying to get control of my life because I need to make a living. I'm sorry I'm fat, but we need money just like the pretty people. These FAs are bullshit and nobody's gonna be there for you - except for you - ladies and gentlemen. 

For those of you fat and content, I say more power to you. But you better not be settling!


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## superodalisque (Mar 23, 2014)

i have never been asked about my weight relative to a position. i think most situations where i work put it in the same category as being a minority and just won't talk about it. where i work now weight is even one of the things includes in our HR manual as something that no one can discriminate regarding. but then again the owner of my business, which is not a small business, is both gay and fat. i absolutely love the guy and the atmosphere where i work. i would say the managers pretty much mirror the 33%. promotions are done by numbers and stats. it's all about how well you function.

the previous position i had was a very large corporation. it was run by a doctor who was an important republican fundraiser. Mitt Romney, John MCcain and others actually came to our work place. i would also say weight had nothing to do with managers there. in fact the COO who hired me was an SSBHM. there was even a guy in my dept who weighed around 600lbs. and lots of other fat folk in between. nobody ever mentioned their sizes. there again about 1/3rd of managers were fat. it was very professional and you could get fired for being too personal like that at work.

in academia my size never mattered and nobody ever asked about it and i never felt different. the only time i ever felt it was when i worked in advertising and even then it ended up being beneficial because i was unforgettable, appeared powerful and was respected for being pushy,non compliant and forward thinking regarding demographics etc... they were sucky to absolutely anyone. it was like working in the series Madmen. that show was exactly what it was still like in the 80s when i was doing it. i hated it. i hope it's better now but according to my friends who are still in it it doesn't seem to have changed much.

a lot of my friends down south are overweight. many of them are professionals. they tend to be social workers, attorneys teachers etc... the ones around my age are generally in management. so also maybe it's different because i am 50. a lot of people are pretty slim in their twenties and early thirties so i would expect younger managers to trend toward being slim. i don't know if that has anything to do with that impression or not. most people promoted seem to be chosen on what they can do for their boss. can they keep the numbers looking good? are they a headache to be with? is their health such that it is going to keep them from coming to work or meeting deadlines? 

i had done a little research because once people had said that there were not fat CEOs and it turned out that their numbers pretty much mirrored society as a whole. i took a look again yesterday and found that the numbers of doctors that are obese also mirror society but non clinical healthcare workers seem to be smaller according to a study i dug up. 

i have lived in most of the country except for Cali and i haven't really found a lack of fat management anywhere i've been, especially in a business where productivity and competitiveness counts. it's strange to me that people would be so personal when holding your credentials in their hands especially in these days when jobs have been so hard to hold on to. your accomplishments thus far should be enough to say that you can do it. seems really archaic and backward. maybe upper management should look at firing these people because it seems they are opening the door for some kind of lawsuit. not only are some people fat but they are fat in conjunction with being female, minority or having handicaps of various types. most companies feel it's to stupid to take a chance like that especially when all they have to do is look through your records to see if you'll be able to do what they need.

maybe it could be that the major impression people get about who is large and in charge comes from the media where you generally don't see many fat folk at all playing people in power.

also it's never good to discount plain old politics where you work. some things have absolutely nothing to do with your size.

also someone who is extremely busy and successful often doesn't have the time it takes to commit to being thin.


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## superodalisque (Mar 23, 2014)

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_144087.html

... on the high-risk end of the obesity scale were men and women involved in transporting and moving material (38 percent); protective-service workers, such as police, firefighters and emergency responders (33 percent); cleaning- and building-service employees (30 percent); mechanics and repairpersons (29 percent); administrative and clerical personnel (28 percent); salespeople (25 percent); and* executives and managers (24 percent).*


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## superodalisque (Mar 23, 2014)

i think this article mirrors more of an impression i get from the higher ups that i know. one of my friends who is very successful down here at Raymond James Financial says, he and his friends could care less as long as the numbers are good.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/03/ceo-executive-fitness-ceonetwork-leadership-health.html


*CEOs Say: Staying Fit With No Time For Fitness*


Loehr is a co-founder of the Human Performance Institute, in Orlando, Fla. His company helps executives get and stay healthy through its Corporate Athlete program. Loehr estimates that 40% of CEOs are technically obese. (The technical definition of obesity is having a body mass index of more than 30; body mass index is the ratio of your weight in kilograms to the square of your height in meters.) In Mississippi, the heaviest state in America, obesity among the adult population is 32.5%. CEOs are seriously overweight.

In Pictures: How I Stay Fit As A CEO

Unfortunately, they also won’t often listen to arguments about the importance of good health. They’re busy and stubborn. At the same time, their personalities and activities can encourage unhealthy behavior&#8211;lavish meals at nearly every lunch and dinner, taking chauffeured cars everywhere. Many of them don’t even get in the generally recommended daily amount of walking&#8211;3.5 miles.

*The problem is not finding time for fitness&#8211;no matter what executives say. They generally have the power to get done anything they seriously want to do. The problem is that they don’t believe they even need to. Getting winded by a five-minute run or having above-average blood pressure can’t stop them from doing their job,* they figure, and for some of them, the job is more important than anything else.


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## bigmac (Mar 23, 2014)

Super -- I don't understand the denial. Its clear to anyone with eyes that fat people are under-represented in the higher ranks of pretty much every field and/or occupation. And that fat people are over-represented in the lower ranks (or simply shut out of the labor market entirely).

No one's implying that this is a good thing or that fat people are not capable of performing at a high level. However, ignoring the obvious fact that many many fat people have employment difficulties is counter productive. 

The fact that you haven't suffered the fat discrimination many others have faced is great. However, denying and/or dismissing the troubles of others is not helpful.


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## Sweet Tooth (Mar 23, 2014)

I have to wonder if sometimes there's an "image" issue that compounds discrimination issues. I don't think I'm disrespected at all at work due to my size, but I also know that there was a threshold weight at which it was hard to find work clothes in my size that are reasonable to spend money on at my current salary. When I go to my Monday morning meetings with all of the other top peeps, I'm the one in the cardigan set, not the matching pantsuit like everyone else. I tried buying pieces, but they were so matronly that it just didn't help any. Do I stand out? Do I look like I don't know how to play the game? Is there a perception that I'm not willing to look "professional" in the way they define it? Not sure. I've heard staff talking about what someone is wearing and how it's unprofessional, so I know there's a definite perception that image matters.

I'm fortunate to be in a state where weight discrimination in hiring is illegal but like Fat And Proud said, it's hard to prove it's happening. Just because it's not overt doesn't mean it isn't impacting perceptions of one's qualifications and that nebulous "fit" for a position. I have one heavier boss in the executive team, but even she is smaller than she was after having WLS.

[And if anyone wants to hear my rant on "work" clothes for fat women, I'm happy to oblige. I have to wonder what jobs these stores think we have.]


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## CleverBomb (Mar 23, 2014)

Sweet Tooth said:


> [And if anyone wants to hear my rant on "work" clothes for fat women, I'm happy to oblige. I have to wonder what jobs these stores think we have.]


I sense a business opportunity here.


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## superodalisque (Mar 23, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Super -- I don't understand the denial. Its clear to anyone with eyes that fat people are under-represented in the higher ranks of pretty much every field and/or occupation. And that fat people are over-represented in the lower ranks (or simply shut out of the labor market entirely).
> 
> No one's implying that this is a good thing or that fat people are not capable of performing at a high level. However, ignoring the obvious fact that many many fat people have employment difficulties is counter productive.
> 
> The fact that you haven't suffered the fat discrimination many others have faced is great. However, denying and/or dismissing the troubles of others is not helpful.



clear to whose eyes? i think it depends on who is looking and where they are looking and whether their expectations are realistic. i think being in the community makes people think that fat folk should be in much larger numbers everywhere they look and we don't even seem to count people who are clinically obese but don't seem very big to us. most people who are supersized might expect it to be a lot more but we are only about 4% of the population. IMO think the community has warped people's idea of exactly how any supers there really are out there. it's a few because supers are few in number.


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## bigmac (Mar 23, 2014)

CleverBomb said:


> I sense a business opportunity here.



Yes, but we need to steer clear of the blaming the victim trap. The idea that its the person being held down's fault is an all to easy idea to accept. The acceptance of this idea improperly shifts the burden and relieves the true culprits of responsibility.

Saying fat women would get promoted if only they dressed better is really no different than saying things like black men would get jobs if only they weren't so angry. It may be a valid assertion for a very small number of people but when applied to a larger group does nothing but justify systematic discrimination.


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## bigmac (Mar 23, 2014)

FatAndProud said:


> Yup. I overwhelmingly feel this way, as much as I hate to admit it.
> 
> I've been trying for two years to get a position in what I studied...my weight has come up in every interview. There's no way to prove weight discrimination with a panel of doctors and other allied health professionals.
> 
> ...



Yes, everyone does indeed need to make money and advance their careers. 

My wife isn't the only person I know whose had this type of experience and decided to take extreme measures. A good friend of mine has been working for one of the major cell phone companies for over 15 years. She started out in a call center (like many other fat women). Being very smart she worked her way up to a low level supervisory position where her career stalled (a supervisory position where she didn't have much contact with senior management or the customers the company really cared about) She had WLS -- went from 360 pounds to 190 -- and was promoted (to a position where she was dealing directly with executives of the company's biggest corporate customers) . A few years later she's now senior management.


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## superodalisque (Mar 23, 2014)

Sweet Tooth said:


> I have to wonder if sometimes there's an "image" issue that compounds discrimination issues. I don't think I'm disrespected at all at work due to my size, but I also know that there was a threshold weight at which it was hard to find work clothes in my size that are reasonable to spend money on at my current salary. When I go to my Monday morning meetings with all of the other top peeps, I'm the one in the cardigan set, not the matching pantsuit like everyone else. I tried buying pieces, but they were so matronly that it just didn't help any. Do I stand out? Do I look like I don't know how to play the game? Is there a perception that I'm not willing to look "professional" in the way they define it? Not sure. I've heard staff talking about what someone is wearing and how it's unprofessional, so I know there's a definite perception that image matters.
> 
> I'm fortunate to be in a state where weight discrimination in hiring is illegal but like Fat And Proud said, it's hard to prove it's happening. Just because it's not overt doesn't mean it isn't impacting perceptions of one's qualifications and that nebulous "fit" for a position. I have one heavier boss in the executive team, but even she is smaller than she was after having WLS.
> 
> [And if anyone wants to hear my rant on "work" clothes for fat women, I'm happy to oblige. I have to wonder what jobs these stores think we have.]



absolutely. and this is another reason why people might not even recognize a fat professional when they do see one. i have had an awful lot of my fat professional friends mistaken for someone of lower rank. i'm sure it has a lot to do with preconceived notions as well so it definitely could not hurt to have clothing befitting our ranks. you really do have to piece it together and get a lot of alterations done to make it work and often people just don't have that kind of time or money when they are just getting their careers off the ground.


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## CleverBomb (Mar 23, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Yes, but we need to steer clear of the blaming the victim trap. The idea that its the person being held down's fault is an all to easy idea to accept. The acceptance of this idea improperly shifts the burden and relieves the true culprits of responsibility.
> 
> Saying fat women would get promoted if only they dressed better is really no different than saying things like black men would get jobs if only they weren't so angry. It may be a valid assertion for a very small number of people but when applied to a larger group does nothing but justify systematic discrimination.


That's a good point. But to the extent that "dress and appearance" issues provide a pretext for discrimination, remedying the lack of good professional clothing will at the very least highlight discriminatory intent where it exists. In other words, they'll run out of excuses eventually, if we keep at it -- and then the prejudices will have to stand on their own (which they won't, as for the most part they're irrational).


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## Sweet Tooth (Mar 23, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Yes, but we need to steer clear of the blaming the victim trap. The idea that its the person being held down's fault is an all to easy idea to accept. The acceptance of this idea improperly shifts the burden and relieves the true culprits of responsibility.
> 
> Saying fat women would get promoted if only they dressed better is really no different than saying things like black men would get jobs if only they weren't so angry. It may be a valid assertion for a very small number of people but when applied to a larger group does nothing but justify systematic discrimination.



I know you're not responding to me in this, but I brought up clothing, so....

More accurately, I brought up image. Clothing is one part of how one portrays a certain image. We can say that it's bullshit to say a fat person isn't getting a job just because of how they dress, but we might still say that it's accurate that someone going to an interview with a t-shirt and jeans isn't going to get a job either because it's not appropriate interview clothing [for most jobs].

It's not about the clothing. It's about one piece of this big picture that affects how people perceive us. Some of it can be somewhat managed. Some of it we may say, "F- off, your image expectations are BS." But what people who are doing the hiring say, perhaps to cover their own biases, is that someone's image doesn't suit the position. It's the same reason I play the game and don't do something like color my hair blue. I'd love blue hair. But because of the jobs that I want, blue hair is not part of the accepted image.

Bodies are a lot more complex than hair color, though, which is why I find I'm willing to kowtow in one area but not another. I do my best to present a professional image with my clothes, although I find it hard to conform even when I want to. Could I have WLS so my weight conforms? Sure, but that's a simplistic response and doesn't acknowledge the challenges inherent in WLS. 

I also am really careful about what I do outside of work, because, fair or not, my personal life impacts my employment in the profession I have even if those personal activities never hurt my ability to do my job. It's the cost I bear for being in the position I am. Still very much about image. My job still requires a great deal of conformity. I don't have to agree with it to know it's how the game is played.

Not saying that it's right that there's this game, just acknowledging that there is one. I don't consider myself a victim, since I do have some choice. I'm not out of a job for not fully fitting in. I'm not disrespected for not looking like everyone else. But I would also bet there are assumptions about me based on my image, however it's perceived.


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## bigmac (Mar 23, 2014)

Sweet Tooth -- you're totally right about there being a game. There are indeed certain expectations that go along certain professions (how all the DAs dress exactly the same is an ongoing joke at our public defender office). However, its been my experience that fat people actually play this game harder than their thinner colleagues. To tell people that their lack of progress is their fault because they didn't dress well enough or had a bad attitude when they're actually better dressed and more engaged than the people being promoted is disheartening to say the least.


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## tonynyc (Mar 24, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Sweet Tooth -- you're totally right about there being a game. There are indeed certain expectations that go along certain professions (how all the DAs dress exactly the same is an ongoing joke at our public defender office). However, its been my experience that fat people actually play this game harder than their thinner colleagues. To tell people that their lack of progress is their fault because they didn't dress well enough or had a bad attitude when they're actually better dressed and more engaged than the people being promoted is disheartening to say the least.



Also wonder if living in States that follow "At Will" philosophy regarding employment . It is a game and there are so many ways that employers will discriminate:

appearance
name
where you live 
type of school you graduated from

In addition, the BHM can face potential discrimination as the angry "Big Guy" ;but, this can depend on those who work in front office vs. back office roles.


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## Yakatori (Mar 24, 2014)

I remember once having a chat with a friend whose opinion in these things I really appreciate. About office politics, employment; just all of that in general.

I asked him "_What does-it really take to get hired? Or promoted?_" (more regularly or consistently)

I meant the question more specific to his particular field and office, and beyond just the most obvious qualifications or what goes on in the interview process, but into what makes the actual supervising manager (not so much on the HR end of things, which I suspect is more about checking off on very specific criteria) pull the trigger to say "_Ok, I'd like to work with this person_" or "_I want this guy on board_" or "_I'm taking this person with me_," etc.. What he then said has really stuck with me, albeit on much more of a general-level (paraphrasing): 

People hire other people who're just like them. And they will also tend towards either promoting or evaluating more highly people that share in their personal values as well as their approach to doing things. 

But, consciously or not, this also goes well-beyond even the most striking or obvious differences, say, of whites mainly hiring whites; but into the more nuanced distinctions of personality and development. e.g. Upper East Siders who tie sweaters around their necks will tend to favor their primarily Northeast-based preppie counterparts, even if it's someone they don't really know or even if they went to a rival school. Likewise, more Bridge & Tunnel types, who feel they've worked their way up, will just seem to mesh better with those they look on as other fellow Bridge & Tunnel types. A guy with a bow-tie, will give a more serious, legitimate shot to fellow bow-tie kind of guy than that same type of guy can expect of a non-bow-tie wearer. And, either way, the bow-tie vibe, if you have it, is something that can be smelled off of you! Whether or not you're actually wearing it at the time... 

In any case, some part of how this very basic & straight-forward observation caught my attention at the time had to do with how I'd never before stopped to really think about what was the common denominator in all of my best experiences with bosses versus those where, maybe, I felt somehow under-valued. Yes, to be fair, more than a few were big & fat people. However, as I looked more closely at it, there were some deeper similarities at work. Ones that applied more across the board


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## superodalisque (Mar 24, 2014)

Yakatori said:


> I remember once having a chat with a friend whose opinion in these things I really appreciate. About office politics, employment; just all of that in general.
> 
> I asked him "_What does-it really take to get hired? Or promoted?_" (more regularly or consistently)
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure people hire and promote people anymore who are just like them all of the time but I'm pretty certain they hire people who they feel will support them and have the goods to get bosses where they want to go. I have a friend on dims who is in PR,. her boss was pretty damned fat phobic but he hired her anyway and kept her because she did an awesome job. when she left he had to hire two people. people can be just like you and undercut you for the position you want or underperform. generally people hire folk who are team players and won't be a fly in the ointment. the days are gone, especially in middle management where people can afford to hire people they "like" or who just look good to them. it may have been more true in the 80s 90s and early 2000s but the way things are now they'd all be out on the street. many times I see people who rely on personalities to explain why things aren't just landing in their lap not being fully honest about their performance on the job.


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## cheesylier (Mar 24, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> I'm not so sure people hire and promote people anymore who are just like them all of the time but I'm pretty certain they hire people who they feel will support them and have the goods to get bosses where they want to go. I have a friend on dims who is in PR,. her boss was pretty damned fat phobic but he hired her anyway and kept her because she did an awesome job. when she left he had to hire two people. people can be just like you and undercut you for the position you want or underperform. generally people hire folk who are team players and won't be a fly in the ointment. the days are gone, especially in middle management where people can afford to hire people they "like" or who just look good to them. it may have been more true in the 80s 90s and early 2000s but the way things are now they'd all be out on the street. many times I see people who rely on personalities to explain why things aren't just landing in their lap not being fully honest about their performance on the job.



I remember reading in psychology today (yes I'm a nerd like that) that some people carry the misconception of the stereotype of bigger people being lazier and irresponsible. Also more of a health risk and higher insurance premiums. I cannot speak for hr cause I'm not sure what'sgoing on in their mind but I know of a company that requires uniforms and to prevent weight discrimination they required uniforms ordered through a specific dealer but the uniform was capped at 52 " waist for men and I forget the women sizes. But if you didn't wear the uniform with specific guidelinesou were terminated. I was called in for being too tall.


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## EMH1701 (Mar 24, 2014)

The VP of my department is a BBW. She's well over 300. But she always manages to dress professionally. It is good to see that not all organizations are discriminatory.


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## superodalisque (Mar 25, 2014)

cheesylier said:


> I remember reading in psychology today (yes I'm a nerd like that) that some people carry the misconception of the stereotype of bigger people being lazier and irresponsible. Also more of a health risk and higher insurance premiums. I cannot speak for hr cause I'm not sure what'sgoing on in their mind but I know of a company that requires uniforms and to prevent weight discrimination they required uniforms ordered through a specific dealer but the uniform was capped at 52 " waist for men and I forget the women sizes. But if you didn't wear the uniform with specific guidelinesou were terminated. I was called in for being too tall.



there is a lawsuit in that. several precedents have been set. in one some stewardesses won a lawsuit against an airline and also a casino in atlantic city lost a similar one against female wait staff.

i dunno but i think the power people give HR is highly overrated. i think the prejudice assigned to HR is also overrated. i have never had a problem getting past an HR interview. the only problem i had was making sure my faceless pictureless resume rose to the top against all of the seeming billions of others in a bad economy. if i got an interview i always got the job offer. you have to have the creds and you have to know how to promote yourself. people won't hire you because they feel sorry for fat people. some folks hate red hair or blue eyes etc... you never know what people are going to dislike and it's shooting yourself in the foot dwelling on that before an interview when you should be polishing your performance, doing your best and making sure your presentation is on point.


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## ashmamma84 (Mar 25, 2014)

My partner and I are both young professionals - she's an ssbbw in a leadership position. She is over 350lbs AND masculine of center yet she still has businesswear. Sport jackets, suits, smart shoes, etc. I work for a multinational consulting firm where I speak in front of large groups frequently. I am also short and fat. I am always, always put together. I can still shop at Talbots while my partner cannot but the point is that I'm savvy enough to find her pieces in her size and then tailor them if need be. I would encourage anyone who is some varying degree of fat, if they can afford to manage it, get with a good tailor and maybe even a personal stylist and image consultant. Is it unfair that fat folk tend to be judged more harshly? Of course. But knowing that, we can still work toward a decent outcome in our favor. I've seen a person written off because while his resume was impeccable, his person was not.

What you say is true, bigmac. Not many super fat folks in management positions, however, that's not something that I focus on since in my personal circle there a quite a few fat black women who are in highly visible and/or leadership roles. I purposely seek out the success stories and model my behavior and attitude after theirs because for me that's an accurate measure. Also, it's not everyones personal goal to be in management or working a corporate style job. That's okay too.


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## superodalisque (Mar 25, 2014)

ashmamma84 said:


> My partner and I are both young professionals - she's an ssbbw in a leadership position. She is over 350lbs AND masculine of center yet she still has businesswear. Sport jackets, suits, smart shoes, etc. I work for a multinational consulting firm where I speak in front of large groups frequently. I am also short and fat. I am always, always put together. I can still shop at Talbots while my partner cannot but the point is that I'm savvy enough to find her pieces in her size and then tailor them if need be. I would encourage anyone who is some varying degree of fat, if they can afford to manage it, get with a good tailor and maybe even a personal stylist and image consultant. Is it unfair that fat folk tend to be judged more harshly? Of course. But knowing that, we can still work toward a decent outcome in our favor. I've seen a person written off because while his resume was impeccable, his person was not.
> 
> What you say is true, bigmac. Not many super fat folks in management positions, however, that's not something that I focus on since in my personal circle there a quite a few fat black women who are in highly visible and/or leadership roles. I purposely seek out the success stories and model my behavior and attitude after theirs because for me that's an accurate measure. Also, it's not everyones personal goal to be in management or working a corporate style job. That's okay too.



most definitely. ask the people who are actually doing it fat.


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## Yakatori (Mar 26, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> "_I'm not so sure people hire and promote people anymore who are just like them all of the time but I'm pretty certain* they hire people who they feel will support them and have the goods to get bosses where they want to go people hire folk who are team players and won't be a fly in the ointment.* the days are gone, especially in middle management where people can afford to hire people they "like" or who just look good to them. it may have been more true in the 80s 90s and early 2000s but the way things are now they'd all be out on the street. many times.._"


But I don't mean so much on a conscious level. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone's intentionally giving anyone else a free-ride. Or that they don't intend to hire anyone but the very best candidate available. (Although, here it bears mentioning that _best_ is not really the same as _most qualified_, _smartest_, or _most capable_; but, necessarily, attempting to off-set the risk that comes with each of those things taken independently).

But I really do mean more by the way of how the emphasis on certain commonalites can make someone seem more relatable. When someone seems generally more relatable, you are then communicating on a whole other level. They are a lot easier to trust, and, also to mention, your instincts about them. All other things being equal, people will tend to choose 'like." Unless they're consciously thinking to do otherwise. 

Of course, it's never truly _all other things being equal._



superodalisque said:


> "_i dunno but i think the power people give HR is highly overrated. i think the prejudice assigned to HR is also overrated. i have never had a problem getting past an HR interview._"


I think it has a lot to do with relating past experiences, as a partially-informed bystander. e.g. Working for company X you observe all sorts of issues that violate whatever rule or 'over-ride' certain stated policies. As these appear largely unaddressed if even formally noticed. Then, looking at job descriptions for postings on the company's site, you find yourself scratching your head at some of the criteria. A month later, they hire from outside. The new guy, to all appearances, behaves like he just fell off of a turnip truck (which, naturally, anyone can seem like the first few days on a new job). Except, as time goes by, it becomes ever more apparent, & to more your co-workers, that this particular hire _looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane_ 

What I mean is, just as you point to examples of fat professionals who dont quite look the part, there are also regular sized people who every-bit look the part, but

And so, arriving at the belief that upper management, people who actually sign off on the business plans & budgets that pay your own salary, are capable of this degree of oversight can prove a daunting reality check for some us. It can pull everything into question i.e. _If *this* is the guy they hired over me, more-so over all of these other much more capable people, then _*1)* _Maybe I dont really know as much as I think I do.._" -or- *2)* "_Whatever I do know or have been working for thus far is not actually worth that much_." Or some combination thereof.

Certainly, blaming HR is a more comfortable rationalization than the alternative; which is that companies, which are run by human beings, make mistakes. In hiring and in pretty much every other area as well. (And, after all, its HR which is eliminating the largest part of the total field, in a certain sense, doing the lion's share of rejecting applicants.)

So, if you've been looking for work for some time without success, then it's perfectly natural to begin to internalize that, even as it takes the form of addressing things that have no real bearing on the outcome. However, the flip side of that, as I see it, is that as people become more and more invested in a process, fine-tuning these little details; they will gradually become more confident and wholly-engaged as a result. So, in that way, losing a few pounds, dressing a little better might seem to have an ultimately larger effect. 

Conversely, when you're already doing the job, getting paid, being depended-upon ect...and you see new people coming in who can't quite cut the mustard, but yet they're sharply dressed; that makes HR a much easier scapegoat than having to re-evaluate just yourself or the company on the whole & your own relationship to it.

Anyway, I-myself have never been asked about weight during the hiring process outside of a routine physical. Although I have been asked some nutty questions here or there, a few of which (I would guess) are illegal in some shape or form. But, generally, my attitude is to be always be expecting the unexpected, at least in the form of a few curve-ball type questions that're more about a persons's absolute unflappability, relatability, ect...as opposed to seeking some answer in particular. To me, it's really just another chance to build report. However,this article better touches on some of my thoughts as far as dealing with the issue of fat in particular as a stated question. Although I'm not so sure about some of what she says, it might prove a good springboard for some further discussion:


> _First of all, I would stop worrying that bringing it up will make the situation worse. This isn't like walking in and saying, "Oh, by the way, I'm diabetic." *This is an obvious situation* and it's best to address it straight out. I honestly don't know if addressing it head on will make it better, but it won't make it worse. After all, right now you aren't getting the job offers, so in a worst case scenario, you address it and you still aren't getting job offers. But, in a best case scenario, *addressing it forces the interviewer to snap out of stereotype mode and analyze the information they have on hand.*
> 
> Perhaps you should try a little experiment. The next time you have a phone interview, after they've set a time for the face to face interview, say something like, "I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. I'll be easy to spot. I'll be the 400 pound guy in the red tie." My reasoning behind this is that while being overweight is common enough, being 400 pounds isn't. By telling the interviewer before, the interviewer will have time to *let the rational side of her brain take over, which will allow her to judge you on your actual qualifications, rather than having the surprise at meeting you force her into the stereotype.*
> 
> I don't know if this will yield better results or not. And honestly, there are numerous skinny people who aren't getting jobs right now either. But, let us know if this helps. I'm sure there are other people in your situation._


So, to clarify, I'm not so much agreeing that this is something to bring up. But more trying to emphasize the idea of a question, pretty much any type of question, to prove an opportunity to recontextualize how something fits into your own personal narrative.


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## superodalisque (Mar 26, 2014)

^ sometimes people will ask you an insulting question to see how well you handle yourself, whether you are cowed , angry or can step up and bat it out of the park figures in on their decision. after all if you are even afraid of yourself how can you be a good manager? you have to be able to take some negativity or criticism. it can say a lot for you if you can even make it work or you. ultimately it is still about the job and nobody wants to have to answer for your screw ups. you need to be able to keep your head to cover your own ass and that of your boss. all the subconscious stuff goes away in a few seconds. it's not really worth the over emphasis except that you appear neat clean presentable and looking at last somewhat corporate. if you can't show up even looking like you want a job you don't deserve consideration.


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## lucca23v2 (Mar 26, 2014)

The fact of the matter is, people see a fat person in an interview and what comes to mind is lazy.. They think if this person is to lazy to worry about how they look, then they certainly won't care about the company's imagine.

Regardless of how wrong you think it is, that is the way of the world. Fat people will always be undervalued because we do not fit into the cookie cutter mold that they have of what a person in power position should be.

Althought all fat people are discriminated against, I find that obese women have it a bit harder. Being women we already have a strike against us. It is fact that women get paid less to do the same job a man does. If you add obesity to that, it is a double whammy.

I have that issue at work. I should have been promoted long ago, but I haven't been. Meanwhile, everyone outside of my department comes to me to resolve thier issues instead of the actual Manager and Supervisor in the department. As if this isn't bad enough, then comes the insult where i have to help the manager with his tasks, and come up with new ways to make the department better which he then tries to take credit for. But I ousmart him, because I footnote everything and have documentation of everything i do and send it to at least 5 different people. This keeps him from taking credit.

http://business.time.com/2012/05/02/why-being-overweight-could-earn-you-a-lower-salary/

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2013/03/04/how-being-overweight-can-hurt-your-career/


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 26, 2014)

Sweet Tooth said:


> I have to wonder if sometimes there's an "image" issue that compounds discrimination issues. I don't think I'm disrespected at all at work due to my size, but I also know that there was a threshold weight at which it was hard to find work clothes in my size that are reasonable to spend money on at my current salary. When I go to my Monday morning meetings with all of the other top peeps, I'm the one in the cardigan set, not the matching pantsuit like everyone else. I tried buying pieces, but they were so matronly that it just didn't help any. Do I stand out? Do I look like I don't know how to play the game? Is there a perception that I'm not willing to look "professional" in the way they define it? Not sure. I've heard staff talking about what someone is wearing and how it's unprofessional, so I know there's a definite perception that image matters.
> 
> I'm fortunate to be in a state where weight discrimination in hiring is illegal but like Fat And Proud said, it's hard to prove it's happening. Just because it's not overt doesn't mean it isn't impacting perceptions of one's qualifications and that nebulous "fit" for a position. I have one heavier boss in the executive team, but even she is smaller than she was after having WLS.
> 
> [*And if anyone wants to hear my rant on "work" clothes for fat women, I'm happy to oblige. I have to wonder what jobs these stores think we have*.]



I'd be up for that. Clothes are a huge setback for me in my career - so much so that I have taken up sewing and making my own clothes. Not everybody can do that and I'm not nearly as gifted at is as I would like. Ashmamma mentioned, either before or after your post, that finding a good taylor is key. The key being A GOOD TAYLOR. They're not as easy to find as you would think. But yeah, clothes. *shakes pitchfork*


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## ed1980 (Mar 26, 2014)

I am a business consultant and because of that, have acted in the upper management of several companies over the years. What I saw in terms of size discrimination was prejudice not exactly prejudice. After the a great job interview the human resources professional, when presenting profiles, strongly stresses obesity related health problem and shows statistics.

I believe there is a health obsession culture in the business environment and that the idea that being physically "fit" is part of being healthy is part of this "religion", and take the form of worry about "future health related costs" with that employee. 

As a BHM I have never had any problems with clients because of my physical appearance, but over the years I have learned that I have to show that I am "taking care of myself". I know it sounds absurd, but besides IMS, you gain points when you do WLS surgery or simple comment on the health benefits that the daily consumption of two glasses of grape juice and related topics during lunch.

I don't know, it is just my personal experience ...


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## Tad (Mar 26, 2014)

ed1980 said:


> , but over the years I have learned that I have to show that I am "taking care of myself". .



I'm not especially big, but at the tail end of job interviews I like to ask if they have bike racks and showers, commenting that I like to bike to work when I can. That might turn some off, for looking at 'quality of life' issues during an interview, not just job-job-job, but on the other hand I feel it is worth it, to emphasize that I'm physically active, even if I'm shaped like a partially deflated rugby ball.


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## lucca23v2 (Mar 26, 2014)

Tad said:


> I'm not especially big, but at the tail end of job interviews I like to ask if they have bike racks and showers, commenting that I like to bike to work when I can. That might turn some off, for looking at 'quality of life' issues during an interview, not just job-job-job, but on the other hand I feel it is worth it, to emphasize that I'm physically active, even if I'm shaped like a partially deflated rugby ball.



lol.. that is some visual buddy.. lol


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## bigmac (Mar 27, 2014)

Here's an interesting example of how fat professionals can have the deck stacked against them:

I got a not guilty verdict in a robbery trial this week. Afterwards I had an opportunity to talk to several of the jurors. They stated that they liked my speaking style. I'm dyslexic as a coping mechanism I've learned to take periodic pauses when I'm speaking (especially when its at least semi-scripted -- i.e. closing arguments). The jurors thought this was an effective technique for highlighting points and giving them a chance to take notes. 

Now the fat tie in -- I've been working out and have lost about 15 pounds lately (my face is noticeably thinner). After previous trials I've had jurors tell me that my presentation needed improvement and that I wasn't as smooth and polished as they thought I should be. Thus the same speaking technique that was found to be a detriment when I was a bit fatter is transformed into a positive perception now that I'm a bit thinner.


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## lucca23v2 (Mar 27, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Here's an interesting example of how fat professionals can have the deck stacked against them:
> 
> I got a not guilty verdict in a robbery trial this week. Afterwards I had an opportunity to talk to several of the jurors. They stated that they liked my speaking style. I'm dyslexic as a coping mechanism I've learned to take periodic pauses when I'm speaking (especially when its at least semi-scripted -- i.e. closing arguments). The jurors thought this was an effective technique for highlighting points and giving them a chance to take notes.
> 
> Now the fat tie in -- I've been working out and have lost about 15 pounds lately (my face is noticeably thinner). After previous trials I've had jurors tell me that my presentation needed improvement and that I wasn't as smooth and polished as they thought I should be. Thus the same speaking technique that was found to be a detriment when I was a bit fatter is transformed into a positive perception now that I'm a bit thinner.



or maybe you knew you lost weight and were standing a bit taller and were more comfortable with yourself, there your technique, your speech flowed better and you carried yourself better...

it is a toss-up


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## superodalisque (Mar 28, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> or maybe you knew you lost weight and were standing a bit taller and were more comfortable with yourself, there your technique, your speech flowed better and you carried yourself better...
> 
> it is a toss-up



i agree. people sense what you think about yourself and they also sense your expectations of what they will think of you. i know a lot of very successful fat attorneys that juries love --so no. Star Jones was VERRRRY popular when she was first starting out as a DA on court t.v. she had a following long before she lost any weight. in fact most people prefer her fat. she had a following as soon as she appeared in court on television the first time as a total unknown which is why court t.v. offered her first journalistic position. there was also a another DA in Detroit around the same time whose name escapes me. she as a BBW too. she was also awesome and won a lot of cases. she is now a judge. she was excellent and also had a lot of fans when she tried cases on court t.v. there were successful legal BHMs too. 

to be honest i wouldn't doubt what the jury said. people can feel it if a person has very negative expectations about how fat people come across. that looks like low self esteem which is never a winner with a jury. coming across as liking yourself is very important. if you come across as believing in yourself, confident in your ideas and conclusions then they can too. thinking that your fat overpowers every last sense of justice people have is actually an insult to the jury. insulting them pisses them off. underestimating the capacity of people also pisses them off. 

people can continue blaming absolutely everything on their fat or they can grow up and actually get into the competition of life. nobody is going to let anyone win just because they are fat and they feel sorry for them. at times in our lives we are ALL going to have to work harder at something we want than somebody else might. it's not a big deal. it's something called life. the neat thing is that when you do it and it was harder than it might be for other people you get to feel stronger smarter and prouder of what you were able to accomplish without every chip lining up in your favor. victory is sweeter.


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## tonynyc (Mar 28, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> i agree. people sense what you think about yourself and they also sense your expectations of what they will think of you. i know a lot of very successful fat attorneys that juries love --so no. Star Jones was VERRRRY popular when she was first starting out as a DA on court t.v. she had a following long before she lost any weight. in fact most people prefer her fat. she had a following as soon as she appeared in court on television the first time as a total unknown which is why court t.v. offered her first journalistic position. there was also a another DA in Detroit around the same time whose name escapes me. she as a BBW too. she was also awesome and won a lot of cases. she is now a judge. she was excellent and also had a lot of fans when she tried cases on court t.v. there were successful legal BHMs too.
> 
> to be honest i wouldn't doubt what the jury said. people can feel it if a person has very negative expectations about how fat people come across. that looks like low self esteem which is never a winner with a jury. coming across as liking yourself is very important. if you come across as believing in yourself, confident in your ideas and conclusions then they can too. thinking that your fat overpowers every last sense of justice people have is actually an insult to the jury. insulting them pisses them off. underestimating the capacity of people also pisses them off.
> 
> people can continue blaming absolutely everything on their fat or they can grow up and actually get into the competition of life. nobody is going to let anyone win just because they are fat and they feel sorry for them. at times in our lives we are ALL going to have to work harder at something we want than somebody else might. it's not a big deal. it's something called life. the neat thing is that when you do it and it was harder than it might be for other people you get to feel stronger smarter and prouder of what you were able to accomplish without every chip lining up in your favor. victory is sweeter.



I wouldn't say it is a question of "growing-up" -but, more of developing the tools and options and support network when one has to deal with "road-blocks" -


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## superodalisque (Mar 28, 2014)

tonynyc said:


> I wouldn't say it is a question of "growing-up" -but, more of developing the tools and options and support network when one has to deal with "road-blocks" -



that's called being a grown up. and you forgot your own personal skills. it' not all about other people. most of it is about you. about your preparation, your strength, your resilience. and the sooner you realize that the sooner you can get on the road to making your dreams come true no matter what. no tools options or network can help anybody who gets knocked down and stays down. your cornerstone is always going to be you.


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## Tad (Mar 28, 2014)

lucca23v2 said:


> or maybe you knew you lost weight and were standing a bit taller and were more comfortable with yourself, there your technique, your speech flowed better and you carried yourself better...
> 
> it is a toss-up



Well, at a guess BigMac himself may be best situated to guess which of those it was--that from here it may be a toss up, but where he sits it may be a lot clearer.

Certainly the halo/horns effect can be very potent.


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## tonynyc (Mar 28, 2014)

superodalisque said:


> that's called being a grown up. and you forgot your own personal skills. it' not all about other people. most of it is about you. about your preparation, your strength, your resilience. and the sooner you realize that the sooner you can get on the road to making your dreams come true no matter what. no tools options or network can help anybody who gets knocked down and stays down. your cornerstone is always going to be you.



I disagree people handle things differently -and it's a combination of things that come to play - you have to build that cornerstone from somewhere unless you have your magic lamp


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 28, 2014)

Tad said:


> Well, at a guess BigMac himself may be best situated to guess which of those it was--that from here it may be a toss up, but where he sits it may be a lot clearer.
> 
> Certainly the halo/horns effect can be very potent.



I know for me I'm not really all that connected with my weight loss. It's usually not deliberate and I'm not even aware there's been a change till someone says, "You look great have you lost weight?" The point I'm trying to make is that you don't have to be sashaying away the pounds at all for people to start noticing and treating you differently. People have gotten ill and encountered a complete lack of empathy because folks were so excited about their weight loss as a result of their illness.


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## superodalisque (Mar 28, 2014)

tonynyc said:


> I disagree people handle things differently -and it's a combination of things that come to play - you have to build that cornerstone from somewhere unless you have your magic lamp



the cornerstone is already inside the person. if it is a person who is just going to give up then there is nothing you can do for them and the whole discussion about being a professional is a moot one. it wouldn't matter if they were fat or not. they just would not have what it takes period. that's why we all grow up and overcome other challenges we've had in life. if we didn't have that ability at all we would never even get within striking distance of the credentials needed that would make us even think we could be any kind of professional at all--even on the lowest rung. 

a person can generally teach themselves how to_ handle anything_ differently. they can change or modify their behavior and reaction. and if a person can't do that then they can get a psychologist, psychiatrist or a therapist to help them work through whatever mental block they have. we can all generally overcome behaviors and reactions unless we have a very serious mental challenge that prevents that. in that case any job might be difficult. 

people who are just too stubborn to change how they handle things would not be a good employee anyway no matter what their size was and anyone would be completely justified in passing them up. employment isn't a charity. even very small children know how to modify their behavior to be able to get what they want. there isn't any real reason a fat adult shouldn't be able to.


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## bigmac (Jun 26, 2014)

Update: After a total weight loss of over 345 pounds my wife is now wearing size 10 clothes. She's officially no longer a fat person (at least not on the outside). She was promoted again today and given substantially more responsibility. For over a decade -- as a fat person -- her hard work and competence was barely acknowledged. Just a few months as a thin person and she's been promoted twice. Coincidence? I think not.


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## LillyBBBW (Jun 26, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Update: After a total weight loss of over 345 pounds my wife is now wearing size 10 clothes. She's officially no longer a fat person (at least not on the outside). She was promoted again today and given substantially more responsibility. For over a decade -- as a fat person -- her hard work and competence was barely acknowledged. Just a few months as a thin person and she's been promoted twice. Coincidence? I think not.



That is so foul. I would hate every single one of those people. Might even send out my resume just to see if I can get a better job and watch the look on their faces when I give my two weeks notice. They suck.


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## tonynyc (Jun 26, 2014)

LillyBBBW said:


> That is so foul. I would hate every single one of those people. Might even send out my resume just to see if I can get a better job and watch the look on their faces when I give my two weeks notice. They suck.



Agreed what cheap fucking bastards - yep get working on that two week notice


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## bigmac (Jun 26, 2014)

My wife's not going to quit -- she's got too much invested (and a growing vested pension). However, she now makes hiring decisions for her unit. She just hired a woman who (for stupid reasons unrelated to weight) has also been unappreciated and passed over.


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## Saisha (Jun 26, 2014)

bigmac said:


> My wife's not going to quit -- she's got too much invested (and a growing vested pension). However, she now makes hiring decisions for her unit. She just hired a woman who (for stupid reasons unrelated to weight) has also been unappreciated and passed over.



Best thing she can do is lead by example. It's too bad it took this long for it to happen but at least she's finally in a position where she can make even more of a difference. Congratulations to her on her promotions.


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## bigmac (Jul 8, 2014)

Another interesting twist. My wife is signing up for a couple of classes at Cal State. A prerequisite issue required her to get one of her former professors to write a short letter stating that a lower division course she took from him (and got an A+ in) was essentially equivalent to the upper division prerequisite. 

She didn't think this would be much of a problem since the professor in question had always been very supportive. Maybe a little too supportive given he had asked her for a date. However, that was when she weighed 450 pounds. When she went to his office yesterday in her new 175 pound body he was actually somewhat hostile (he didn't recognize her at first). He eventually agreed to write the letter but it was clear she was no longer a favorite student. Guess you can't please everyone.


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## FatAndProud (Jul 9, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Another interesting twist. My wife is signing up for a couple of classes at Cal State. A prerequisite issue required her to get one of her former professors to write a short letter stating that a lower division course she took from him (and got an A+ in) was essentially equivalent to the upper division prerequisite.
> 
> She didn't think this would be much of a problem since the professor in question had always been very supportive. Maybe a little too supportive given he had asked her for a date. However, that was when she weighed 450 pounds. When she went to his office yesterday in her new 175 pound body he was actually somewhat hostile (he didn't recognize her at first). He eventually agreed to write the letter but it was clear she was no longer a favorite student. Guess you can't please everyone.




Professors like fat ladies  I know that first hand  lol


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## LillyBBBW (Jul 9, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Another interesting twist. My wife is signing up for a couple of classes at Cal State. A prerequisite issue required her to get one of her former professors to write a short letter stating that a lower division course she took from him (and got an A+ in) was essentially equivalent to the upper division prerequisite.
> 
> She didn't think this would be much of a problem since the professor in question had always been very supportive. Maybe a little too supportive given he had asked her for a date. However, that was when she weighed 450 pounds. When she went to his office yesterday in her new 175 pound body he was actually somewhat hostile (he didn't recognize her at first). He eventually agreed to write the letter but it was clear she was no longer a favorite student. Guess you can't please everyone.



Shees! You can't win 'em all. Good thing it didn't count towards her grade.


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## Surlysomething (Jul 9, 2014)

My weight has never played into employment opportunities for me but they have played a lot in my relationships with co-workers. I intimidate them. There are a lot of people out there that assume fat people are going to be lazy and shy wallflowers and i'm exactly the opposite. Some thin women are openly confused and hostile towards me and why I get any attention and the men don't like a woman who has more balls than they do. It's pretty messed up.

The people that do get me have been life long friends as well as former co-workers. They took the time to get to know me and it was as simple as that.


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## bigmac (Nov 8, 2014)

bigmac said:


> Update: After a total weight loss of over 345 pounds my wife is now wearing size 10 clothes. She's officially no longer a fat person (at least not on the outside). She was promoted again today and given substantially more responsibility. For over a decade -- as a fat person -- her hard work and competence was barely acknowledged. Just a few months as a thin person and she's been promoted twice. Coincidence? I think not.



My wife just got promoted yet again. Her prior position was split into three positions -- she'll be managing her own unit including the three new supervisors hired to perform her prior job. Senior management has suddenly noticed they have a star player -- a fact that somehow escaped them until she lost weight. Also several of the male senior management now invite my wife to all their lunch "meetings". Coincidence? Again I think not.

She's torn about how to feel about this. She loves her new position (drunk with power ) but is pissed she was ignored for so long.


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## Nordiques (Nov 10, 2014)

Well, firstly, congratulations to her on all these promotions.

I've seen what I suspected to be weight-based discrimination before. I don't deny it exists and will never tell anyone that their grievances are wrong. So, please don't take it that way. I think it's really sad that this happens.

However, I'd like a perspective from someone who was smaller and wanted to _gain_ weight. What happened in your career as you did? I think it would add another dimension here, pardon the pun.

See, I would guess that someone loses a lot of weight because that person either 1) wants to or 2) has been asked to for health reasons. Both of these things, in my opinion, have the _potential_ (maybe not in reality) to change work performance. If you feel good about your new appearance, and you feel well physically (if there were health reasons), that's going to play into how you project yourself to others, and thus how they perceive you. It's not an effort to victim-blame as much as one to understand if there is more complexity here.

So, I'd love to hear it from the other side: for someone who became more confident with weight gain, did it change things at work positively, negatively, or not at all?


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## user 29363 (Nov 18, 2014)

Perception is reality and your appearance influences peoples perception of you. unfair as this maybe it is reality in the professional world.


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