# Marginalization Of BHMs Within The Size-Acceptance Community



## FreeThinker (Mar 15, 2009)

A thread to discuss this topic.

Viewpoints, please?


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## Aireman (Mar 15, 2009)

Not touching this topic with a ten foot pole!!!


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## Paquito (Mar 15, 2009)

This will end badly.

Very badly.


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 15, 2009)

I've never seen it happen in a truly Size Acceptance community. This board covers too much to carry that term only.

I'll watch this thread, and I might throw my two cents in.


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## Dr. Feelgood (Mar 15, 2009)

Aireman said:


> Not touching this topic with a ten foot pole!!!



If you'll bring a couple of eleven-foot poles, I'll bring the marshmallows.


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## FreeThinker (Mar 15, 2009)

Aireman said:


> Not touching this topic with a ten foot pole!!!



Because it's too volatile, or because it isn't a concern?


In having watched many threads here, I believe that if an opinion is expressed by just one person, there are probably dozens of others who share it.

This subject has come up before, in different threads, and addressing it may help clear the air.

No games, no mockery, just an honest thread to discuss the concerns of some here who may feel they, as a group, have been overlooked by the Size-Acceptance movement.


In what ways are BHMs getting short shrift?


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## steely (Mar 15, 2009)

Because of my bias towards BHM's.I can see no down size to being one.I like big men.They are my own definition of strong,manly,attractive.Being a SSBBW I've never had a BHM interested in me to my knowledge.Not to say they haven't been but I am known to be a bit oblivious.

My niece who is 5'1" dates a man who is 6' weighs about 375.We were talking the other day and it really floored me to hear he is self conscious about his weight.I've always gone out of my way to include him.I just love to look at him.It never occured to me.

You might find that women(this woman)just doesn't realize that guys have issues,too.It's a big gap that needs to be discussed.This is just my own opinion.The next time I see a BHM,I'll wonder how he feels about himself and be extra nice.


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## Chimpi (Mar 15, 2009)

I have never seen or experienced any sort of marginalization at all; either on a personal scale, community scale or broad scale.
As we all do, I have my own personal views and opinions, both positive and negative about being fat, but I have never experienced anything _against_ me from someone else to the best of my knowledge.


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi

This topic never does turn out good because the same people turn out again and again to attack, attack, attack and harass until any communication is impossible. They will always see BHM's place in Fat Acceptance as a glass half full.

William




free2beme04 said:


> This will end badly.
> 
> Very badly.


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## Ample Pie (Mar 16, 2009)

well, this was your chance to add to the dialogue; you can do that or you can point fingers....



William said:


> Hi
> 
> This topic never does turn out good because the same people turn out again and again to attack, attack, attack and harass until any communication is impossible. They will always see BHM's place in Fat Acceptance as a glass half full.
> 
> William


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## 1300 Class (Mar 16, 2009)

> I have never seen or experienced any sort of marginalization at all; either on a personal scale, community scale or broad scale.
> As we all do, I have my own personal views and opinions, both positive and negative about being fat, but I have never experienced anything against me from someone else to the best of my knowledge.


Sums up my position.


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

What good is a thread like this?

People spread their stereotypes of the candyland existence of BHM in their day to day posts, that is where the problem continues. The best thing is to call them out right at then and there. Still as you can see they go into attack mode to end any possible communication. They simply refuse to give a normal reply like I have just done.

William




Rebecca said:


> well, this was your chance to add to the dialogue; you can do that or you can point fingers....


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## Ample Pie (Mar 16, 2009)

If a thread that is meant for this purpose does no good, why do you insist on throwing your Droopy-like bitching and moaning into every other thread (none of which were ever meant to address this issue), unless, of course, your point isn't to make a point but to _disrupt and annoy_?



William said:


> What good is a thread like this?
> 
> People spread their stereotypes of the candyland existence of BHM in their day to day posts, that is where the problem continues. The best thing is to call them out right at then and there. Still as you can see they go into attack mode to end any possible communication. They simply refuse to give a normal reply like I have just done.
> 
> William


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi

When I read someone saying that Fat Men do not experience this or that, I make a comment, it is that simple. If my comments are not on topic it is because the original comment on BHM was not adding anything to the conversation. It is not like what you said that I am dropping into conversations, I am commenting on part of the conversation.

William 




Rebecca said:


> If a thread that is meant for this purpose does no good, why do you insist on throwing your Droopy-like bitching and moaning into every other thread (none of which were ever meant to address this issue), unless, of course, your point isn't to make a point but to _disrupt and annoy_?


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## butch (Mar 16, 2009)

My perception is that the possible marginalization of BHM in SA is because there are so few BHM publicly working towards fat acceptance. I don't know of many SA blogs, other than Big Fat Blog, that are run by men, and Paul is/or has stepped down from running that site. I've never seen BHM in visible leadership positions in NAAFA, I've only seen FAs and BBWs. I don't see BHM on CNN, but I do see BBWs like Marilyn Wann. Most of the people on the fat yahoo group I belong to are women, and whenever I go to the fat-centered websites for men, I rarely if ever see any activism mentioned, but I see it all the time at sites like Shapely Prose or NOLOSE.

This to me does not equal a conscious effort on the part of women to exclude BHM, but it may be the unintended result if most of the people 'out' in their advocacy of size acceptance are women, and thin FAs, then yes, the full experience and needs of BHM may not get the attention it needs. Considering, though, the volume of talking I've seen at various SA organizations and online sites about wanting to include BHM into the advocacy for size acceptance, then the possible marginalization one sees is because ultimately there needs to be more BHM willing to have a dialogue with BBWs and FAs, not a diatribe, about the needs of BHM. 

In the end, no BHM wants a BBW to be the only person to speak for them, but how are we going to speak together? Are there any BHMs who want to do more, publicly, for SA? If so, I hope they'd speak up in this thread, and offer suggestions for how we can work together. I've asked this in the past on Dims, and never gotten a workable response.


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## Tau (Mar 16, 2009)

Perhaps my context is completely different from the one you are speaking from but in my society - black, South African - fat men are not judged or ostracized like fat women are. In fact, it's considered perfectly acceptable to be a fat man. Fat men in my context are found desirable, powerful. Also, in my experience, fat men don't go anywhere near fat women. It's on these boards that, for the first time, I'm seeing fat couples where both partners are big people. Fat men in my country go out with and marry thin women. I have to say though that i have seen echoes of this acceptance of bigger men in popular American culture - the Notorious BIG, Heavy D etc. 

Like I said, I'm speaking purely from my own experience and observations of fat men in my society, I can't say much for how it is in the rest of the world. And in my society fat men are not the non-people that fat women are, they certainly have not been marginalized.


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## 1300 Class (Mar 16, 2009)

Something about repressed body sexualism and the role of genders in group society usually crops up. 
---


> butch


I'll admit I know next to nothing about anything in this area, but I'll have a few wild eyed theories. That there are differences between men and women, and that their percieved image within society is different; to put crudely, does the issue stem from the position that being a fat gent being seen as more 'acceptable' [or merely less negative?] than a SS/BBW by the establishment [whatever that is, in context]?  
Therefore the need to be seen taking active reform is lesser for the gents compared to their female counterparts?

On the other hand I could be off in the realms of fantasy.


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## butch (Mar 16, 2009)

Australian Lord said:


> Something about repressed body sexualism and the role of genders in group society usually crops up.
> ---
> 
> I'll admit I know next to nothing about anything in this area, but I'll have a few wild eyed theories. That there are differences between men and women, and that their percieved image within society is different; to put crudely, does the issue stem from the position that being a fat gent being seen as more 'acceptable' [or merely less negative?] than a SS/BBW by the establishment [whatever that is, in context]?
> ...



I would suspect that is part of it, because US studies tend to show that discrimination and societal disapproval because of weight start at higher sizes for men than women (I'm thinking specifically of studies that look at size-related job discrimination and pay gaps between thin and fat people). So, that at least means there is probably a larger pool of women invested in SA than men, regardless of any gender-specific cultural attitudes about one's size.

However, I do think that is changing in the US, as many cultural critics have pointed out, men are under increasing pressure to be as body-conscious and conventionally attractive as women have traditionally been.


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## Carl1h (Mar 16, 2009)

Here's why I hate topics like this. They degrade so quickly into a discussion of how much easier fat men have things then fat women do, and that discussion is not one that I think is helpful.

Why don't I want to have another discussion about who has it easier? First because I don't like focusing on the negative aspects of my life. I have problems, yes. Other people have more problems and worse problems, yes. For my part I prefer to be happy about the good things in my life and not dwell on the bad parts by enumerating them and contrasting and comparing them to someone else's problems, other people make their own choices about this.

Second, if I talk about my experience having an assigned airline seat at the very front and how I didn't fit because the seats were narrower and the arms didn't lift up and how I had to stand there wondering if I was going to be able to take my flight until the plane was boarded and the stews could find me a new seat, the point isn't how humiliated I felt or to quantify my humiliation versus someone else's humiliation. The point I want to make for other fat fliers is to avoid the front row where they stick the trays in the armrests making the seats narrower, with arms that won't go up.

Third, I don't want any one else here to tell me what my experience is being a fat man and living my life. No one who isn't me can tell me what I do or don't experience or how it does or doesn't make me feel or whether my problems are as valid as theirs are. It's only fair, therefore, that I don't tell anyone else what their experience is and that's what these conversations become, people telling other people what that other person's experience is with life. 

Chairs and beds and other furniture don't choose not to break when I sit in them because I am a fat man rather than woman. Armrests do not move apart because I am a fat man rather than woman. Doors and aisles do not become wider for me because I am a fat man rather than woman. Restaurant booths do not become more spacious for me because I am a fat man rather than woman. Stairways and hills don't become shorter or less steep for me because I am a fat man rather than woman. My socks are not easier to put on and my ass is not easier to wipe. To the extent that we are told that our problems do not measure up to the problems of fat women, we are told that our problems and our experiences don't matter. If our problems and experiences don't matter, then are we marginalized?


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## butch (Mar 16, 2009)

Those are valid points, and yet, where are the men who are speaking of their experiences outside of Dims in an activist way? I don't want to speak for BHMs, but I also don't want to stifle my own experiences, nor ignore data, that suggests the experience is different. I'm not interested in a who has it worse, but I am interested in social science data that says in some arenas (like the workplace) fat men do have it better, ONLY after another man responed to my post asking for BHM to speak up.

I don't know if your post refers specifically to what I wrote. I debated whether to contribute to this thread because I have no desire to argue or make claims about how others besides myself live as a fat person, but if I'm going to ask a certain poster time and again to offer ideas, solutions, ways we can work together, and they repeatedly fail, then I also have an obligation to speak up about my ideas, solutions, and ways to work together to lessen any possible marginalization of BHM in SA.


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi Butch

I have never said that BBWs or anyone placed barriers in front of BHM to keep them from Fat Acceptance and I do not even know if BHMs will ever be a regular part of Fat Acceptance.

I am more marginalized by statements made by others that are passed factual Fat Male experiences.

I think that there have been enough confrontations in Fat Acceptance over the fact that so many people other than Fat males have created/fabricated so called histories and experiences of Fat men and have even shared them with the press as factual. Even if there is not an Fat Male presence in Fat Acceptance, this is not ethical or honest behavior.

If there are blank areas of information on Fat Males in Fat Acceptance that is OK, better that than someone filling in the gaps with assumptions and guesses.

William






butch said:


> My perception is that the possible marginalization of BHM in SA is because there are so few BHM publicly working towards fat acceptance. I don't know of many SA blogs, other than Big Fat Blog, that are run by men, and Paul is/or has stepped down from running that site. I've never seen BHM in visible leadership positions in NAAFA, I've only seen FAs and BBWs. I don't see BHM on CNN, but I do see BBWs like Marilyn Wann. Most of the people on the fat yahoo group I belong to are women, and whenever I go to the fat-centered websites for men, I rarely if ever see any activism mentioned, but I see it all the time at sites like Shapely Prose or NOLOSE.
> 
> This to me does not equal a conscious effort on the part of women to exclude BHM, but it may be the unintended result if most of the people 'out' in their advocacy of size acceptance are women, and thin FAs, then yes, the full experience and needs of BHM may not get the attention it needs. Considering, though, the volume of talking I've seen at various SA organizations and online sites about wanting to include BHM into the advocacy for size acceptance, then the possible marginalization one sees is because ultimately there needs to be more BHM willing to have a dialogue with BBWs and FAs, not a diatribe, about the needs of BHM.
> 
> In the end, no BHM wants a BBW to be the only person to speak for them, but how are we going to speak together? Are there any BHMs who want to do more, publicly, for SA? If so, I hope they'd speak up in this thread, and offer suggestions for how we can work together. I've asked this in the past on Dims, and never gotten a workable response.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 16, 2009)

Rebecca said:


> If a thread that is meant for this purpose does no good, why do you insist on throwing your Droopy-like bitching and moaning into every other thread (none of which were ever meant to address this issue), unless, of course, your point isn't to make a point but to _disrupt and annoy_?



I see your droopy and raise you a


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi Carl

This is all that I have been saying!!!

I will rep you and a couple of other people that have posted recently have already gotten too many reps from me.

William




Carl1h said:


> Snip
> 
> 
> Third, I don't want any one else here to tell me what my experience is being a fat man and living my life. No one who isn't me can tell me what I do or don't experience or how it does or doesn't make me feel or whether my problems are as valid as theirs are. It's only fair, therefore, that I don't tell anyone else what their experience is and that's what these conversations become, people telling other people what that other person's experience is with life.
> ...


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## AnnMarie (Mar 16, 2009)

butch said:


> I've never seen BHM in visible leadership positions in NAAFA, I've only seen FAs and BBWs.





One has been running it for the past 3-4 years. Swimmingly, I might add.


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## AnnMarie (Mar 16, 2009)

I agree with some others that the constant drum beat of "fat men vs fat women and their hardships" is really pointless and divisive. 

Everyone has their own reality, it's hard or it's not. But equating what is hard for me, or those like me, with what is hard for another - when you're NOT that person and you never will be, it just a fool's errand. You have to live in your reality, they live in theirs. I don't see how "my life sucks so much more" helps anyone at all.

It's the same thing I hate about the fat woman living vs FA possible struggles argument. They're not the same, they're different. Worse/harder/easier?? Not your place to judge, you don't know, you're not living it, and just because part of your life and struggle is impossible or difficult or whatever, doesn't mean that the struggle and issues of another are therefore invalid or unworthy of discussion. 

It's this constant invalidation of another that makes most of the discussions here fruitless and plain old mean. Why is it always me vs. you instead of "you know what, I have my own shit to handle, but let me give you some help for a minute... because we ALL NEED IT SOMETIME."


It's exhausting - the finger pointing and the "no way, I'm more marginalized and damaged than you - listen to me now, waahhhhhhh"


Bunch of fucking victims. God.

To quote one of my least favorite people "How's that workin' for ya?"


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Hi Ann Marie

I have always like what Pattie Thomas wrote on this issue.

http://threewisetwins.com/Top10.pdf

William





AnnMarie said:


> One has been running it for the past 3-4 years. Swimmingly, I might add.


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## Ample Pie (Mar 16, 2009)

I don't want to tell anyone what their experiences are or should be, even given my big mouth, but to be honest: the fact that I'm a female means that I have very little idea what the experiences are for BHM in the SA movement (or in general for that matter), even though I'm SS. But I'd really like to know. 

I'd like to consider myself an open person and someone who can be considerate of the needs and experiences of others. I may fail at that from time to time, but it's much easier to be open that way when I know the experiences of people who lead different lives than I do. 

Having said that, I also have to say that people aren't exhibits in a zoo and I'm not here to gawk and stare and turn peoples' lives into science projects. I think doing that can be just as marginalizing (I've brought that fact up many times re: feedism), so I guess I'd like there to be a balance. 

I'd like to know the truths of many many people and begin to understand how those various truths make up the SA movement as a whole. To that end, I think it's important for BHM to have and be able to use their voices comfortably.


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## Ample Pie (Mar 16, 2009)

Of course, I don't think that's the point of this thread. I mean people may want to make it into that thread as they did with the bbw board thread and the ssbbw board thread, but, if I'm reading correctly, the OP was just asking the BHMs what their experiences are---not asking how they rate or compare next to the experiences of other people.



AnnMarie said:


> I agree with some others that the constant drum beat of "fat men vs fat women and their hardships" is really pointless and divisive.
> 
> Everyone has their own reality, it's hard or it's not. But equating what is hard for me, or those like me, with what is hard for another - when you're NOT that person and you never will be, it just a fool's errand. You have to live in your reality, they live in theirs. I don't see how "my life sucks so much more" helps anyone at all.
> 
> ...


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## AnnMarie (Mar 16, 2009)

Rebecca said:


> Of course, I don't think that's the point of this thread. I mean people may want to make it into that thread as they did with the bbw board thread and the ssbbw board thread, but, if I'm reading correctly, the OP was just asking the BHMs what their experiences are---not asking how they rate or compare next to the experiences of other people.



Oh yes, I'm fully aware that's the intention, but that atmosphere that I ranted on is exactly why we have a few guys already stating clearly they're not even going to touch on this subject. They know what will happen.


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## BeaBea (Mar 16, 2009)

I have to come right out and say that I know nothing about the marginalisation of BHMs. I'm certain it happens, and I'd do anything I could to fight it if I saw it, but for all my attempts to empathise I can never experience it personally. 

At the risk of making a huge generalisation I know that men are less likely to share in the way that women do. The sexs communicate differently and thats always going to be an issue when trying to see another point of view - but I'd love to be confident that Dimensions is seen as a safe place for BHMs to share. I'd love to read more from them so I can see the places where our lives experiences are similar, and where they differ. Not so I can judge who has it tougher, but so I can learn.

Tracey xx


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## Ample Pie (Mar 16, 2009)

I hope what may (or even will happen) doesn't stop guys from letting us know their truths...and that if such negativity and victimizing does start up it's dealt with appropriately.


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## kayrae (Mar 16, 2009)

Rebecca, I agree with everything you've said so far. I've refrained from posting on this thread because I'm a fat woman, and I can only draw from my own experiences. I honestly do want to know more about the fat man experience. It's the reason I participate in the BHM/FFA forum even though I don't necessarily identify myself as either. And going to the BHM/FFA forum has also given me an appreciation for the fat male body that I didn't have before (I think chubby boys can be cute).

I recently invited a gay BHM into this forum and while he was checking out the site, his first observation was: this website is full of women, huh?


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## butch (Mar 16, 2009)

AnnMarie said:


> One has been running it for the past 3-4 years. Swimmingly, I might add.



Cool! Wish I saw him on the telly, like I've seen Conrad or Marilyn or some of the other past NAAFA folks I'm familiar with. Is the person you're referring to the person who puts out the newsletter, by any chance?


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## AnnMarie (Mar 16, 2009)

butch said:


> Cool! Wish I saw him on the telly, like I've seen Conrad or Marilyn or some of the other past NAAFA folks I'm familiar with. Is the person you're referring to the person who puts out the newsletter, by any chance?



No, that's Bill Weitze (the NL). 

(My rolly eyes were for the sarcasm on my "swimmingly".)


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## Carl1h (Mar 16, 2009)

Rebecca said:


> If a thread that is meant for this purpose does no good, why do you insist on throwing your Droopy-like bitching and moaning into every other thread (none of which were ever meant to address this issue), unless, of course, your point isn't to make a point but to _disrupt and annoy_?





TraciJo67 said:


> I see your droopy and raise you a



This right here is why I'm not interested in having this conversation again. William may be a lightning rod for this sort of thing, but you are providing an object lesson for any BHM that might read this and think to say something. If you think that some history of what I assume is some past conflict you had with William carries over into this thread for everyone reading this thread and validates your response, you're wrong.

If you complain, you're droopy dog or eeyore or hey, why not pile on something else, there's a lot more out there.

For all your insistence on declaring William a cliche, by responding like this here you are branding yourselves as just as cliche. If his post is disrupting and annoying in this thread then your posts are cranking up the level of disruption and annoyance, and doing nothing else.



Rebecca said:


> I hope what may (or even will happen) doesn't stop guys from letting us know their truths...and that if such negativity and victimizing does start up it's dealt with appropriately.



Really? Because from where I sit it looks like it already started, and you were right there doing it.


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## butch (Mar 16, 2009)

AnnMarie said:


> No, that's Bill Weitze (the NL).
> 
> (My rolly eyes were for the sarcasm on my "swimmingly".)



I like the word swimmingly, btw. Now I want to look up the etomology of the word!

I just remembered that the ISAA was started by a man, I'm pretty sure. I don't know if he is a BHM or not.


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## Ample Pie (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm not sure if you have any idea why I called William "Droopy" or if you have any idea where my comments to him come from--it seems you don't--but I can assure you they have nothing to do with his status as a BHM or any other role. They have to do with the fact that he came into the thread about BBW and belittled women, claiming that fat men are marginalized because fat women are on the board being "admired," and then wouldn't add _how_ he thinks men are marginalized--even when asked. Instead, he used his monotone to again claim he is a victim. Then when the BHM thread was created, rather than add to it, he just transferred the drama. And I'm sorry if you think my comments to him were an attack on him as a BHM or on his right to discuss such issues but you are dead wrong, they are, actually, about the fact that rather than speaking his peace and taking up the cause of BHM, he goes about blaming everyone else and personally, I find that to be detrimental to the cause of BHM (of anyone) rather than supportive.



Carl1h said:


> This right here is why I'm not interested in having this conversation again. William may be a lightning rod for this sort of thing, but you are providing an object lesson for any BHM that might read this and think to say something. If you think that some history of what I assume is some past conflict you had with William carries over into this thread for everyone reading this thread and validates your response, you're wrong.
> 
> If you complain, you're droopy dog or eeyore or hey, why not pile on something else, there's a lot more out there.
> 
> ...


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## butch (Mar 16, 2009)

There is a part of my life that I don't share very often on this board, for reasons that those who know me well may know, and may understand. Let me just say that part of that life involves me doing something very directly to address the lack of men and people of color represented in SA. Which is why I may come off as having a less than symapthetic or empathetic response to this topic, whenever it comes up, because I know I'm trying to do something about it besides point it out and complain. Granted, the work that I'm doing isn't as visible, or as tangible, as what NAAFA or others might do, but it helps build a foundation for action.

I want to hear the voices of anyone who feels left out of SA, but that is only the beginning. I want to help those same people find a way to address their concerns, and if my impatience sounds like I don't care, or I don't want to help, that is farthest from the truth. 

Just wanted to say that because I maybe care more than I should about making sure SA is as multi-dimensionsal () as possible. That may not translate on the internet.


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## Ernest Nagel (Mar 16, 2009)

I'll hazard a guess that having an acceptable personality, an acceptable quantity of body hair or acceptable emotional intelligence would do way more to de-marginalize _me_ than being a conventionally acceptable size? :doh: Maybe I just have enough other defects that size seems relatively insignificant? As a guy I'm pretty sure I'm judged harshly for lots of things before weight enters any consideration.

The truth is though some of us have become accustomed to being on the outside looking in. Being an outcast or a misfit is not without bennies. Being the last picked gets you easily attainable expectations, low visibility and a reduced need to conform among many other things. There's also an element of freedom to being a pariah that team players seldom appreciate. If anything I think I'd like to be more marginalized. JMO.  Anyway, _some_ chicks dig rebels, insurgents and non-conformists. :happy:


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## 1300 Class (Mar 16, 2009)

> I think that there have been enough confrontations in Fat Acceptance over the fact that _*so many people other than Fat males have created/fabricated so called histories and experiences of Fat men and have even shared them with the press as factual*_.


Could I have a few examples of this, if its not to much bother?


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Well it is a bother 

I would say that it started with most of the articles and books written by Susan Orbach and her peers. Another would be Susan Wooley (early articles in the NY Times. 

Just include any non-Fat Male writer who does not cite their work, yet speaks for Fat Males. 

I rarely make statements of what BBWs feel and have experienced. When I do it is either statements that are well documented day to day conversations by BBWs. Or is something a BBW has told me.

I have seen plenty of statements from BHMs that contradict the general Fat Acceptance Folklore about Fat Men, yet Fat Acceptance remains in the mindset of people like Orbach and Wooley.

I would also add that there has been plenty of "ghost writing" of Fat Male history and experiences on places like Dimensions.

William





Australian Lord said:


> Could I have a few examples of this, if its not to much bother?


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## 1300 Class (Mar 16, 2009)

> Fat Acceptance Folklore about Fat Men


Like I said before, I don't know alot about this area of things, so, what is the Fat Acceptance folklore about fat men? Just a basic rundown would be cool. 

Its an honest question and I'm trying not to be snarky, I'm just sort of oblivious to much of the activist/commmunity thingy.


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## superodalisque (Mar 16, 2009)

i'll stick my neck out there and say yes, the acceptance community seems to marginalize BHMs in my opinion. there is very little discussion of any issues that pertain to them. if you look at the subject of any seminars given at the most serious conventions they aren't even mentioned. worse yet, at social events you often see them being ignored even by women who have the same issues. even if you aren't attracted to someone what would it hurt to keep one another company and have a dance or two together. a lot of people put this down to the percieved physical sexual imcompatability between people of size. but whatever happened to friendship and comradship? i talk BHM friends into coming to events and unfortunately people are not very warm to them. its a dirty llittle secret but i think BBWs have a size prejudice of their own. i think by looking at a BHM if a BBW isn't really happy with her own body so he reminds her of how she must look. i think a lot would rather date a thin guy because then they can close thier eyes and pretend that they look like everyone else.

things that are find darling on a BBW not so much on a BHM even for a male friendship. FAs often view fat as a feminine characteristic. you don't see a lot of FAs paling around with fat buddies. also i think some FAs have a secret jealousy going when it comes to BHMs. there are a number who have a secret desire to gain but are afraid to do it for real. so for them a BHM is the image of something they want very badly but they deny themselves. 

then there are also very few FFAs who show up. i'm not sure its such a big deal if a woman loves a fat man. so women tend to not have to use a special community to connect with the kinds of men that they like. then BHMs are men as well and often the pain of men is discounted. some BBWs tend to seem to feel that they (BBWs) have it worse, this without ever listening to the other side. its as though they are jockeying for position as to who the bigger victim is, no pun intended. i think for all of these and many other reasons you often see the issues of BHMs ignored and discounted.


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## superodalisque (Mar 16, 2009)

AnnMarie said:


> One has been running it for the past 3-4 years. Swimmingly, I might add.



one? thats a good illustration of his point actually

PS: no disrespect, but its getting kinda tiresome always hearing that someone thinks an issue is pointless if it is devisive. its not an issue for discussion at all if there are not opinions on both sides. i think this is a valid discussion and if people could just suspend the name calling (i'm not talking about from you) and judgements for a minute then maybe we can all learn something for a change besides who is the most stubborn. i really wish some of the emotional responses and heated language would calm itself. its very frustrating when you know people have something interesting and helpful to say about an issue but before it can even get going people are either disrespecting one another's reality or trying to shut each other up. i know it wasn't meant that way but all of this dismisive stuff isn't good. why don't we just let everyone say what they have to say and then concentrate on trying to respect each other's opinions? we are making people who are at the heart of certain issues afraid to respond at all. 

if anyone is afraid that they won't be heard here why not try the no judgements allowed thread.


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## William (Mar 16, 2009)

Well 

When I first visted NAAFA Fat Men were nothing more than Fat Fat Admirers, period. I did most of my Fat Acceptance conversations on several yahoo groups, I am still active in two of them.

Even today in Fat Acceptance there are far too many people who's primary focus on Fat Men is about what they do not experience, who knows where they get this information. Even more than society Fat Acceptance is fixated on the idea that men of all sizes are not very concerned with their bodies.

I work in a drug rehab for men and probably hear more male issues than most people. It can be rough being the chubby guy in a all male rehab, I am the "Man" so I do not count. 

I can tell you that men do care about these things, they just do not talk about them as much. Sharing anything on group level is a trail for them.

The Good news is that the Rehab's current "chubby guy" is the only one who has gotten a job in this economy, so he is currently "top dog" around there 

William







Australian Lord said:


> Like I said before, I don't know alot about this area of things, so, what is the Fat Acceptance folklore about fat men? Just a basic rundown would be cool.
> 
> Its an honest question and I'm trying not to be snarky, I'm just sort of oblivious to much of the activist/commmunity thingy.


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## superodalisque (Mar 16, 2009)

William said:


> Well
> 
> When I first visted NAAFA Fat Men were nothing more than Fat Fat Admirers, period. I did most of my Fat Acceptance conversations on several yahoo groups, I am still active in two of them.
> 
> ...



thank you for talking and i hope you, and other BHMs, keep educating us.


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## Cors (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks for sharing, everyone. I admit I am quite clueless about this topic, and I found your responses interesting and enlightening. I do hope something can be done to lessen any marginalisation of BHMs here. 

I read a recent comment made by an FA how he thinks fat is good for women only, so I am not surprised by this discussion. Then again, how many FAs are actually here because they believe in size acceptance? These guys are clearly not interested in befriending anyone who isn't say, 500lbs, extreme pear shaped with no stretchmarks so feel free to ignore them. 

As for BBWs not befriending BHMs, well, it goes both ways. Some BBWs like thin men exclusively, some BHMs like thin women exclusively. Most BBWs don't post in the BBW/FA subforum and most BHMs don't venture out either. I also agree that much of the discussion on the main boards are dominated by BBWs and FAs and it can be intimidating, but most BHMs just don't seem to be too interested. I am a thin queer FFA who feels safe enough to share my different experiences in those threads and I find most people pleasant and respectful. I am quite positive that BHM contributions are more than welcome. 

Anyway, I had a chat with my BHM friends. I only talked to seven of them and the responses are just so typical. 

The straight ones are conventionally successful, confident, jolly and have no issues with women at all. At least, this is how they have always presented themselves. They don't care about much else and were amused that size-acceptance communities even exist. They are intrigued by the idea of FFAs though they said they wouldn't actually want any focus on their fat bits. I asked them if they felt any pressure to be conventionally attractive and they just laughed and dismissed it as a female thing. They are no different from typical thin males who love skinny women with big boobs, make fat girl jokes (then again, they joke about their own size too) and find the idea of socialising with BBWs just because they are both fat quite absurd. 

The queer ones are definitely more aware and empathetic. They complain about how shallow most gay men are, how they go gaga like twinks or beefcakes and how straight men have it easier. They are generally quite content with the bear/chub scene, which is quite big here. They hang out with fabulous BBW fag hags and of course they love fat women.

I don't know, it just saddens me that BHMs feel marginalised in SA communities.


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 16, 2009)

Cors, it saddens me that anyone would feel marginalized anywhere. But it happens. Hell, sometimes I feel marginalized within this community, of which I've been a part for more than a decade, because I've lost weight. But I think that sometimes, with certain people, they will feel marginalized no matter where they are, because it's just part of their personality. These are the kinds of people who would complain about winning the Lotto, because they'd have to pay taxes. Or complain about being in a sexual relationship, because they'd have to buy condoms. Know what I mean? If people are truly marginalized by a community, then yes I have nothing but the utmost empathy for them. But some people choose to marginalize themselves, and I'm not sure all the sub-forums and boards and attention in the world would address that.

I'm interested in this thread, because I'm married to a BHM and obviously am concerned about his emotional and physical well being. But so far I'm not finding any real examples of how men are marginalized so much as people are taking issue with the posting style of one, certain, poster.


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## BeaBea (Mar 16, 2009)

Cors said:


> I don't know, it just saddens me that BHMs feel marginalised in SA communities.



Cors, you ROCK! I love your posts but we dont often post on the same boards so I only kind of catch your intelligence and wisdom in passing.

When it comes to dating I am mostly attracted to medium or muscular men but I've had some very happy relationships with BHMs too. When it comes to friendship I'll be friends with any gender, size or sexual persuasion. The larger men I've known have expressed mild concern, or sometimes amusement, over their love handles or whatever but I've never known a larger man (or any man) to be so consumed with his physical appearance as most of my female friends of all sizes are. 

Even the largest of my BHM friends only comes to Dims because they fancy larger women and wants to drool over the Paysite board. None of them want to engage in any activism and most view with slight alarm or amusement that I'm usually to be found on a reinforced soapbox trying to change the world. This could be a generalisation but I can only speak from my experience.

I really hope this thread develops into something that BHMs will contribute towards . Simple clear statements such as 'I feel marginalised when...' type statement that we can work towards fixing would be brilliant. What I sense so far though is that there may be general issues with the broader Size Acceptance movement but none are specific to Dimensions and therefore possibly not within our (the Dims Community) remit to resolve. I'm more than happy to be corrected though.

Tracey


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## imfree (Mar 16, 2009)

Aireman said:


> Not touching this topic with a ten foot pole!!!



:doh:Yah, here's a picture of the last guy who tried to 
touch this topic with a 10 foot hotstick!


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## PolarKat (Mar 16, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> I've never seen it happen in a truly Size Acceptance community. This board covers too much to carry that term only.
> 
> I'll watch this thread, and I might throw my two cents in.



http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=800247&postcount=19


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## 1300 Class (Mar 16, 2009)

I'll come out and say it. 

As a BHM or whatever term or name we wish to use, I've never felt marginalised on Dims. Do I post in the BHM board? Probably once or twice my whole time here, because I have never really felt the need to discuss anything with anybody that would fit into the BHM board catagory, because I don't see a need to, because anything I have to say will likely fall more conveniently into either the main board, lounge, HP boards. This sums it up for me. Nothing compells me to post in the music thread in the BHM forum, when there is a perfectly good one in the Lounge. 

Does this mean under the surface that I actually don't want to be labelled as a BHM for some reason? Subconciously, perhaps, I can't say. Is this because it has become an inherently sexualized term, much as SS/BBW has become, and there is something either in the personal beliefs or lifestyle that prefer not to be defined by that, or that term, but by other features?



> The straight ones are conventionally successful, confident, jolly and have no issues with women at all. At least, this is how they have always presented themselves. They don't care about much else and were amused that size-acceptance communities even exist.


This struck me, because I think, using myself as a personal example, I think I almost view BHM issues/forum either within a general or broad context without a need to discuss anything, sort of size acceptance within size acceptance if you will, with the former being BHM, that I sort of ignore (well ignore is probably the wrong word, more just oblivious). 

Although I am a BHM, I think I express size acceptance views of mine through broader terms, rather in either gender terms. I mean there have been a number of times where fat was not a question of gender by of simple 'being'. For example, the airline seat thread last year didn't (from memory) disapate into gender role, merely what experiences and issues where at hand from everyone. 

Where does this leave me? I'm not so sure.

Edit: I think basically, I don't feel marginalised because I'm not really apart of it in the first place.


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 16, 2009)

PolarKat said:


> http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=800247&postcount=19



Ok. But can you compare being under represented to marginalization? Not representing a persons issues as well as you could is not the same as purposely shunning or outcasting someone.

Not that I imply not covering issues are a good thing, but NAAFA didn't take time out to say "Oh well... you don't have it as bad as women!"


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## superodalisque (Mar 16, 2009)

Cors said:


> Thanks for sharing, everyone. I admit I am quite clueless about this topic, and I found your responses interesting and enlightening. I do hope something can be done to lessen any marginalisation of BHMs here.
> 
> I read a recent comment made by an FA how he thinks fat is good for women only, so I am not surprised by this discussion. Then again, how many FAs are actually here because they believe in size acceptance? These guys are clearly not interested in befriending anyone who isn't say, 500lbs, extreme pear shaped with no stretchmarks so feel free to ignore them.
> 
> ...




i think i have a pretty different experience from yours so its very interesting to hear what you have to say. it makes me think a lot. most of the BHMs i know personally are straight. most of the BHMs i've met at events etc are straight. i have only talked to 2 openly gay BHMs that i know of when i went to those. that was eye opening. it was really nice talking to someone who was male who had concerns similar to mine. there are quite a few straight BHMs who go to the social events i go to especially in chicago and vegas. they are active in acceptance. they all say that they feel like an addendum unless they are championing BBW rights.


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## superodalisque (Mar 17, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> Ok. But can you compare being under represented to marginalization? Not representing a persons issues as well as you could is not the same as purposely shunning or outcasting someone.
> 
> Not that I imply not covering issues are a good thing, but NAAFA didn't take time out to say "Oh well... you don't have it as bad as women!"



good question. maybe it would depend on whether the numbers are low because they just aren't interested versus feeling that the people there are just not interested in them?


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 17, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> good question. maybe it would depend on whether the numbers are low because they just aren't interested versus feeling that the people there are just not interested in them?



Right. We're going to have to hear that side from the men involved.

Cors is also made of win, and the comment about how some FAs don't think men should be fat was actually something I was going to mention originally. I've seen it more than once. We've still got to separate the sexual preference side of things and the acceptance side though.


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## PolarKat (Mar 17, 2009)

Jon Blaze said:


> Ok. But can you compare being under represented to marginalization? Not representing a persons issues as well as you could is not the same as purposely shunning or outcasting someone.
> 
> Not that I imply not covering issues are a good thing, but NAAFA didn't take time out to say "Oh well... you don't have it as bad as women!"



actually I was looking more at this..



BulleseyeB said:


> I am leading a workshop at this year's convention called "Living in the Super-Sized Body" and it is open to super-sized men and women. The inclusion of men in this workshop was quite a conversation starter among the board members, to say the least.


Why would the inclusion of SSBHM be something of a "conversation starter..to say the least" in a workshop for living in the super sized body...


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## William (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi Jon

The issue of under representation is not that bad and will take care of it self as more Fat Men speak up, but what information about Fat Men that is given now needs to be quality information and not assumptions and misinformation. 

William




Jon Blaze said:


> Ok. But can you compare being under represented to marginalization? Not representing a persons issues as well as you could is not the same as purposely shunning or outcasting someone.
> 
> Not that I imply not covering issues are a good thing, but NAAFA didn't take time out to say "Oh well... you don't have it as bad as women!"


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## William (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi 

I mentioned Susan Orbach and Susan Wooley, but there is also a host of other female writers who's ideas help formed the early mindset of groups like NAAFA. These writers had zero empathy for Fat Males and ignored any Fat Male Issues even though the Medical and Therapy fields of the day did note significant Fat Male Issues.

William






Australian Lord said:


> Like I said before, I don't know alot about this area of things, so, what is the Fat Acceptance folklore about fat men? Just a basic rundown would be cool.
> 
> Its an honest question and I'm trying not to be snarky, I'm just sort of oblivious to much of the activist/commmunity thingy.


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## kayrae (Mar 17, 2009)

I was thinking about this today at work. William, do you have any suggestions for a specific BHM workshop that NAAFA should produce? From reading BullseyeB's comment to you, NAAFA does want to address BHM issues. I don't know what issues fat men would want to talk about. I'm not a man. So to be honest, I really do make a lot of assumptions. And sadly, I'll probably continue to make assumptions until someone corrects me.


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## William (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi 

Great Post Sup!

I have been into Fat Acceptance ever since I got my first 16k ram Radio Shack Computer (no sure what year that was). I have watched the slow inclusion of Fat Men into the Fat Acceptance community.

I am not surprised that there is so few Fat Men in Fat Acceptance because men truly do not deal well with their problems. Statistically we men let medical problems go untreated too long, we let emotional problems dwell to the point where we end up filling most of beds in rehabs and prisons.

So I am not surprised that Fat Men are far more apt join in the social side of Fat Acceptance and not the serious side.

I am concerned that what information that is put out by Fat Acceptance about Fat Men is quality information because they may never be enough Fat Men participating in the Issues side of Fat Acceptance to balance the information that circulates.

William





superodalisque said:


> i'll stick my neck out there and say yes, the acceptance community seems to marginalize BHMs in my opinion. there is very little discussion of any issues that pertain to them. if you look at the subject of any seminars given at the most serious conventions they aren't even mentioned. worse yet, at social events you often see them being ignored even by women who have the same issues. even if you aren't attracted to someone what would it hurt to keep one another company and have a dance or two together. a lot of people put this down to the percieved physical sexual imcompatability between people of size. but whatever happened to friendship and comradship? i talk BHM friends into coming to events and unfortunately people are not very warm to them. its a dirty llittle secret but i think BBWs have a size prejudice of their own. i think by looking at a BHM if a BBW isn't really happy with her own body so he reminds her of how she must look. i think a lot would rather date a thin guy because then they can close thier eyes and pretend that they look like everyone else.
> 
> things that are find darling on a BBW not so much on a BHM even for a male friendship. FAs often view fat as a feminine characteristic. you don't see a lot of FAs paling around with fat buddies. also i think some FAs have a secret jealousy going when it comes to BHMs. there are a number who have a secret desire to gain but are afraid to do it for real. so for them a BHM is the image of something they want very badly but they deny themselves.
> 
> then there are also very few FFAs who show up. i'm not sure its such a big deal if a woman loves a fat man. so women tend to not have to use a special community to connect with the kinds of men that they like. then BHMs are men as well and often the pain of men is discounted. some BBWs tend to seem to feel that they (BBWs) have it worse, this without ever listening to the other side. its as though they are jockeying for position as to who the bigger victim is, no pun intended. i think for all of these and many other reasons you often see the issues of BHMs ignored and discounted.


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 17, 2009)

Carl, I have no personal issue with William. For the most part, we are cordial with each other, as I usually TRY to stay out of threads that he participates in (which often requires bowing out of threads that I've been involved with). It is always the same thing, over and over and over. It becomes boring, and good threads end up in the e-dumpster. I do stand firmly by what I said. After years of viewing a posting history, and William's obtusely stubborn refusal to consider any viewpoints other than his own, and the fact that this very conversation keeps coming up over, and over, and over, and over again ... coupled with William's rather slantedly pessimistic outlook ... I've reached my own conclusions.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. To me, this isn't about the BHM perspective. It is about William. That's usually what it ends up becoming.



Carl1h said:


> This right here is why I'm not interested in having this conversation again. William may be a lightning rod for this sort of thing, but you are providing an object lesson for any BHM that might read this and think to say something. If you think that some history of what I assume is some past conflict you had with William carries over into this thread for everyone reading this thread and validates your response, you're wrong.
> 
> If you complain, you're droopy dog or eeyore or hey, why not pile on something else, there's a lot more out there.
> 
> ...


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 17, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Jon
> 
> The issue of under representation is not that bad and will take care of it self as more Fat Men speak up, but what information about Fat Men that is given now needs to be quality information and not assumptions and misinformation.
> 
> William



That seems fair. I guess I just don't think "Marginalization" is the right the term. I'm all for making moves though. Do yo thang! :bow:


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## Webmaster (Mar 17, 2009)

butch said:


> ...I've never seen BHM in visible leadership positions in NAAFA....



I don't know how they are handling things these days, but during my lengthy watch there were a good number of highly visible BHM in NAAFA's leadership. Examples were Bob Bain, Russell Williams, Charlie VanDyke, Jerry Hoxworth and even Bill Fabrey himself were all BHM, as were influential chapter and regional leaders such as Bob Hartenstine, Jerry Lamb and also NAAFA's (albeit short-lived) ED Chaz Martinez.


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## William (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi Traci

I am not apologetic about when I come into a tread and comment on the same or similar off-base third party comments on the lives and experiences of Fat Men. Nothing would please me more not to have a reason to do so.

It is always the same thing over and over, never changing. Well there has been some good communication recently

William 





TraciJo67 said:


> Carl, I have no personal issue with William. For the most part, we are cordial with each other, as I usually TRY to stay out of threads that he participates in (which often requires bowing out of threads that I've been involved with). It is always the same thing, over and over and over. It becomes boring, and good threads end up in the e-dumpster. I do stand firmly by what I said. After years of viewing a posting history, and William's obtusely stubborn refusal to consider any viewpoints other than his own, and the fact that this very conversation keeps coming up over, and over, and over, and over again ... coupled with William's rather slantedly pessimistic outlook ... I've reached my own conclusions.
> 
> I'm not trying to convince you of anything. To me, this isn't about the BHM perspective. It is about William. That's usually what it ends up becoming.


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## William (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi Kayrae

I think a good seminar would be on Fat and Gender and it should go beyond what is now the established Fat Acceptance stance on Fat and Gender.

I see fat as ambiguous; to me it can be perceived differently depending on how it sets on a person. The question is how does a Fat Guy express this further without stepping on Fat Acceptance Toes? I think that a lot of Fat Women who do not identify as looking feminine may be helped by this talk also. I also know some feminist Fat Activists do not use the acronyms BBW and SSBBW for similar reasons.

I think that guys like me see Fat as a body dimension, not a secondary characteristic of gender.

William








kayrae said:


> I was thinking about this today at work. William, do you have any suggestions for a specific BHM workshop that NAAFA should produce? From reading BullseyeB's comment to you, NAAFA does want to address BHM issues. I don't know what issues fat men would want to talk about. I'm not a man. So to be honest, I really do make a lot of assumptions. And sadly, I'll probably continue to make assumptions until someone corrects me.


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## superodalisque (Mar 17, 2009)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> Great Post Sup!
> 
> ...




yeah i get ya. i have chat friends who are BHMs and are pretty much house bound. when they have medical problems their doctors seem to be more likely to tell them to just tough it out. they are often home alone and in pain for many years. i think they are told to "man up" which might seem especially important to do if you have a soft body that reminds people of a woman's. am i making any sense by thinking this?


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## olwen (Mar 17, 2009)

William said:


> Hi
> 
> Great Post Sup!
> 
> ...



That right there is the key then isn't it? If people are misrepresenting fat men, then it's up to fat men to make the corrections. How can people who are not fat men know what's going on if you all don't tell them? What will happen is you will continue to be misrepresented. Just saying hey we're misrepresented isn't enough. Luckily, there are a few mediums where what you look like doesn't matter. By that I mean, you won't have to worry about dealing with the film/tv industry, who as we all know doesn't represent fat people well at all. You can write a book, go on the radio or do a pod cast, start a blog or several blogs, begin a group, make videos for youtube, start a facebook group, you can twitter, you can become political and start your own organization and bypass NAAFA alltogether....There are a lot of things you can do, but you have to make yourselves visible. We won't know what the correct information is until you say what that is. 

Honestly tho, I don't even know what the misinformation is.


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## William (Mar 17, 2009)

I'll get back to you, I am contemplating what to post next

William



olwen said:


> That right there is the key then isn't it? If people are misrepresenting fat men, then it's up to fat men to make the corrections. How can people who are not fat men know what's going on if you all don't tell them? What will happen is you will continue to be misrepresented. Just saying hey we're misrepresented isn't enough. Luckily, there are a few mediums where what you look like doesn't matter. By that I mean, you won't have to worry about dealing with the film/tv industry, who as we all know doesn't represent fat people well at all. You can write a book, go on the radio or do a pod cast, start a blog or several blogs, begin a group, make videos for youtube, start a facebook group, you can twitter, you can become political and start your own organization and bypass NAAFA alltogether....There are a lot of things you can do, but you have to make yourselves visible. We won't know what the correct information is until you say what that is.
> 
> Honestly tho, I don't even know what the misinformation is.


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## kayrae (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm not familiar with NAAFA's conventions, but have they ever actually addressed the BHM issue? I'm surprised if the answer is no. I mean, Conrad just named a whole bunch of BHMs who are in the movement.


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## Webmaster (Mar 17, 2009)

William said:


> ...I have been into Fat Acceptance ever since I got my first 16k ram Radio Shack Computer (no sure what year that was)....



Most likely a TRS-80 circa 1981. I had one.


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## tonynyc (Mar 17, 2009)

kayrae said:


> I'm not familiar with NAAFA's conventions, but have they ever actually addressed the BHM issue? I'm surprised if the answer is no. I mean, Conrad just named a whole bunch of BHMs who are in the movement.



Kayrae;
In answer to your question- there were special interest groups in NAAFA. Now, I have not looked at the NAAFA website for several years and just noticed all the changes on the current site. The website use to list the various Special Interest Groups;but, I didn't see the links or mentioning of any SIGs. I'm not sure of things have moved on to other venues such as different Yahoo Groups or MySpace. maybe some other folks with nmore information can shed some light.

There have been various forums in past conventions and perhaps there will be something in the upcoming 2009 NAAFA Convention.

NAAFA online


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## Victim (Mar 18, 2009)

I think the best way for fat men to get involved in the size acceptance community is for fat men to get involved in the size acceptance community.

I'm trying to do so with my writing, because, well, it's what I do. I'm sure others have some skills and viewpoints they can bring to the party if they actually choose to do so.

"I'm not locked in here with you... You're locked in here with ME." - Rorschach, Watchmen


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## Chimpi (Mar 18, 2009)

In general, I would like to see more examples of fat men being marginalized, especially within the size acceptance community / movement, so that way as a fat male I can not only notice such examples or situations, but comment, 'spread the word', discuss, so on and so forth. Thus far, to my knowledge, I have not seen anything.


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## butch (Mar 18, 2009)

Webmaster said:


> I don't know how they are handling things these days, but during my lengthy watch there were a good number of highly visible BHM in NAAFA's leadership. Examples were Bob Bain, Russell Williams, Charlie VanDyke, Jerry Hoxworth and even Bill Fabrey himself were all BHM, as were influential chapter and regional leaders such as Bob Hartenstine, Jerry Lamb and also NAAFA's (albeit short-lived) ED Chaz Martinez.



That's a good list, Conrad, thanks for bringing them to my attention. Some of the names are familiar to me, but for some reason I never heard 'BHM' attached to them, just 'FA.'

I recently read this book that talked a little bit about the popularity of 'Fat Men's Clubs' at the end of the 19th century in some US Cities. Fascinating stuff, as they'd have picnics, field events, banquets, and these events usually included weigh-ins and/or prizes for the heaviest participants.


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## Webmaster (Mar 18, 2009)

butch said:


> That's a good list, Conrad, thanks for bringing them to my attention. Some of the names are familiar to me, but for some reason I never heard 'BHM' attached to them, just 'FA.'
> 
> I recently read this book that talked a little bit about the popularity of 'Fat Men's Clubs' at the end of the 19th century in some US Cities. Fascinating stuff, as they'd have picnics, field events, banquets, and these events usually included weigh-ins and/or prizes for the heaviest participants.



Yes, I believe they were all not only BHMs, but also FAs. Consider, of course, that the term BHM is relatively recent. The term BBW came into being when Carole Shaw trademarked the term and started BBW Magazine in 1979 or so. She was not on friendly terms with NAAFA, and vigorously defended the trademark. As a result, it wasn't used anywhere except in her magazine (which I later bought, including the trademark). In the mid-1980s, there was a magazine specifically for BHMs called Magna. It only lasted a bit and they never used the term BHM which, I think only began getting used in the late 90s.

I think the fat men's clubs are another example of how fatness can mean something different to males than females.


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## William (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi Olwen

Here is what I have written so far, it was not easy because it is a touchy subject, but it has been one sided for too long.


I have been composing this message to address some of the circular debates and diatribes that occur here at Dimensions Forums and through out Fat Acceptance. There has always been a line in these conversations that I have been hesitant to go beyond and I think that many Fat Men feel the same because they never come out and say this. I think that this topic is one that should not be brought up in polite conversation, but half of this conversation is ingrained and used as part of the foundations of Fat Acceptance already.

This is the primary reason that most of my criticism posts never got to the point of closure, who even wants to ask these questions in public? I wish that this was a post that would be empowering to everyone, but it cant be.

Are all or most Fat Women Beautiful and Feminine? Are all or most Fat Men Handsome and Masculine? From early on Fat Acceptance by default had a consensus in Fat Acceptance that all Fat Women were beautiful and Fat Acceptance has primarily been about empowering the lives of Fat Women. Should a Fat Woman need to be called beautiful for her life to be uplifted? The same question applies to Fat Men and Handsomeness?

Much later Fat Men where integrated into Fat Acceptance, but it has never been a good mix, because the foundations of Fat Acceptance remained tilted toward empowering Fat Women.

Is it terrible if Fat Acceptance acknowledges that some fat peoples fat only makes them fatter than skinny people and for other Fat People their fat either works for them or against them? Fat Acceptance has always had the stance that the magical acronym BBW makes every Fat Woman a Venus of Willendorf. Fat Men in comparison have been marginally accepted in Fat acceptance with no universal benefits attached to the BHM acronym.


A Community like Fat Acceptance has to be fair and realistic and not a fantasy if it is really going to help People. There are Fat Men and Women who are not going to identify with the BHM and BBW images. Fat Acceptance should be inclusive of their mindset also.

I am more and more appreciating the 1970s writing of the Fat Underground, this was before the creation of the acronyms like BBW and BHM, even though these ladies were radical Feminists, their writings center around helping Fat People, they were all inclusive. I love that these women centered their work on Fat People needing support, where did that inclusiveness go in Fat Acceptance?

Any Thoughts?


William






olwen said:


> That right there is the key then isn't it? If people are misrepresenting fat men, then it's up to fat men to make the corrections. How can people who are not fat men know what's going on if you all don't tell them? What will happen is you will continue to be misrepresented. Just saying hey we're misrepresented isn't enough. Luckily, there are a few mediums where what you look like doesn't matter. By that I mean, you won't have to worry about dealing with the film/tv industry, who as we all know doesn't represent fat people well at all. You can write a book, go on the radio or do a pod cast, start a blog or several blogs, begin a group, make videos for youtube, start a facebook group, you can twitter, you can become political and start your own organization and bypass NAAFA alltogether....There are a lot of things you can do, but you have to make yourselves visible. We won't know what the correct information is until you say what that is.
> 
> Honestly tho, I don't even know what the misinformation is.


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## BeaBea (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi William, 

thanks for sharing, its great to get an insight into how you feel.

Firstly I have to say that I've always preferred the term 'self acceptance' instead of 'size acceptance'. It seems to me that unless we can accept ourselves then our size is irrelevant. That being said though (and I dont want to derail this thread into that whole debate) i found this question at the heart of what you posted.



William said:


> Are all or most Fat Women Beautiful and Feminine? Are all or most Fat Men Handsome and Masculine?



For me the terms BBW and BHM never claimed that 'big' was automatically beautiful, or even that beauty was in any way valuable or necessary in order to be of value and worthy of respect. Those terms only ever said to me that beauty was -possible- at all sizes and not automatically excluded by weight or size. Its the notion of possibility in a world that other limits beauty to being young and slim that makes the terms BBW and BHM useful, and indeed valuable to me. 

I suspect that like most arguments this boils down to semantics, but I hope that explains my reasons why I use the terms BBW and BHM as badges of honour for my fellow big people and why I think they are valuable to the general fight for acceptance.

Tracey


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## kayrae (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm going to address this part first. 

Beauty is subjective. My idea of beauty doesn't necessarily match yours or anyone else's. Femininity in women doesn't always equate to beauty. Neither is masculinity in men. I don't see why the fat acceptance community can't use words like beautiful and handsome to be empowering. The thincentric world equate fat to ugliness. I've picked up a dictionary for a definition of fat. "Ugly" has been a definition. To illustrate my point, merriam-webster defines fat as "stupid or foolish." 



William said:


> Are all or most Fat Women Beautiful and Feminine? Are all or most Fat Men Handsome and Masculine? From early on Fat Acceptance by default had a consensus in Fat Acceptance that all Fat Women were beautiful and Fat Acceptance has primarily been about empowering the lives of Fat Women. Should a Fat Woman need to be called beautiful for her life to be uplifted? The same question applies to Fat Men and Handsomeness?


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## William (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

I like the word Fat Acceptance because Fat is exactly what the enemies of Fat People focus their hate on. Use the word Fat Acceptance, but I always incorporate Size Acceptance with my Fat Acceptance.

I think that BBW is used as a universal badge of honor in Fat Acceptance, but BHM has never had that same honor inside Fat Acceptance, it does not even fit into the paradigm of Fat Acceptance that is molded to fit the acronym BBW.

That is why I ask are all Fat Women and Fat men Beautiful and Handsome?

If you want Fat Acceptance to be a fantasy land then you can make up acronyms and concepts that say anything, but in reality Fat Men and Women are merely Human Beings irregular and imperfect, yet still deserving respect. Something that has never been dished out fairly in Fat Acceptance.

On another level there are Fat Men and Women who will never think of themselves as BBWs and BHMs, are they helped by these acronyms and Fat Acceptance concepts?


William






BeaBea said:


> Hi William,
> 
> thanks for sharing, its great to get an insight into how you feel.
> 
> ...


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## William (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi Kayrae

Beauty is subjective outside of Fat Acceptance not inside, the point is Beauty and Handsomeness should be irrelevant inside of Fat Acceptance. 

William

PS

I brought work home from work 

I will get back when I can



kayrae said:


> I'm going to address this part first.
> 
> Beauty is subjective. My idea of beauty doesn't necessarily match yours or anyone else's. Femininity in women doesn't always equate to beauty. Neither is masculinity in men. I don't see why the fat acceptance community can't use words like beautiful and handsome to be empowering. The thincentric world equate fat to ugliness. I've picked up a dictionary for a definition of fat. "Ugly" has been a definition. To illustrate my point, merriam-webster defines fat as "stupid or foolish."


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## BeaBea (Mar 18, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Kayrae
> 
> Beauty is subjective outside of Fat Acceptance not inside, the point is Beauty and Handsomeness should be irrelevant inside of Fat Acceptance.



I disagree. If we dont think we are beautiful then no-one else will. Beauty IS subjective, but is doesnt just mean externally, it can mean a good spirit and a kind heart and those beautiful qualities are very much present in the BBW/BHM populations.

Tracey


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## William (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

Remember that I am only talking about Beauty and Handsomeness as applied in Fat Acceptance to Fat Men and Women.

So you are saying that these acronyms in Fat Acceptance are non-subjective, that they are applied to both Fat Men and Women evenly and evenly to all Fat Men and Women?

Then you are back to the universal badge of honor and you should never see anyone ever disagreeing with either the attractiveness of either Fat Men or Women.

William




BeaBea said:


> I disagree. If we dont think we are beautiful then no-one else will. Beauty IS subjective, but is doesnt just mean externally, it can mean a good spirit and a kind heart and those beautiful qualities are very much present in the BBW/BHM populations.
> 
> Tracey


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## superodalisque (Mar 18, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Kayrae
> 
> I think a good seminar would be on Fat and Gender and it should go beyond what is now the established Fat Acceptance stance on Fat and Gender.
> 
> ...




i agree with you here. a lot of BBWs i know feel that there is a preference for pear and hourglassed shaped women. let me say i think all shapes of BBWs and BHMs are attractive but i know that people have thier preferences. i have heard a lot of people say both male and female, that they think pears and hourglasses are more feminine. i think a lot of people love apples but i do feel that the other women MIGHT appeal to a larger group since they are more like what a lot of men have been socialized to. that idea is strictly antedotal. i'm just going by what a lot of my friends talk about. don't know if its true or not. i also wonder how BBWs with wider shoulders find things. that would be a nice poll to do to find out for sure. 

i think BHMs would share some of the same difficulties that those women might have because they don't have the stereotypical male shape necessarily. i saw a BHM the other night in the movie "J'taime Paris". he was with a BBW who was smaller than him. a mime was running behind them making fun. see why everybody wants to kill mimes ?  he had really big beautiful shapely thighs. i was jealous. i was thinking he might have the same problems as an apple or a woman who carries most of her weight in her arms and shoulders? do you think thats true? how does stuff like that affect BHMs? are they less likely to be percieved as handsome? do FFAs prefer guys with more shoulder than hip?

if those are shared issues it would be nice if seminars were run where BBWs BHMs could lay that out on the table in a shared way. i don't think i have ever seen anything done where BBWs and BHMs had equal representation and an equal stake like that.


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## BeaBea (Mar 18, 2009)

William

I'm sorry but I've read your post over and over and I cant make out your meaning. Maybe it will help if I clarify my meaning?

I believe ANY big person, whether they are classically beautiful/handsome or downright ugly have a perfect right to be labelled BBW or BHM. For me the terms do not relate to external appearance or imply any degree of sexual attraction. Its simply shorthand for a large person who is aware that their size doesnt place any limits on their possibilities. 

As such I think the terms can be used as a self description by any person who chooses to. If someone doesn't care for the acronym I'm perfectly happy for them to use their own description. If you dont care for BHM what would you choose? 

Tracey


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## William (Mar 18, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

The acronyms BBW and BHM are all about looks, you are using your own concepts and projecting them onto how they are used in Fat Acceptance. If people in Fat Acceptance thought like you there would not be a need for the subdivisions of SSBBW and the mid-size BBW that was in use for a while.

If Fat acceptance was not so extremely subjective about looks you would see more extreme apple and column bodied BBWs sharing photos. The Acceptance of Fat Bodies would apply to both Fat Men and Women in Fat Acceptance.

The question if all Fat Men and Women are Handsome and Beautiful in Fat Acceptance should not matter, but oh it does.....

Do you believe that Fat Acceptance promotes body Acceptance evenly for both Fat Men and Women? All Fat Women and Men?

I believe it should, but do you think it does?

William

I am really out of here for tonight, I have a stack of spreadsheets check out 







BeaBea said:


> William
> 
> I'm sorry but I've read your post over and over and I cant make out your meaning. Maybe it will help if I clarify my meaning?
> 
> ...


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## BeaBea (Mar 18, 2009)

William said:


> you are using your own concepts and projecting them onto how they are used in Fat Acceptance.


Of course I am! I'm giving my opinion. And you are giving yours. And neither is correct - they're just personal viewpoints.



William said:


> If people in Fat Acceptance thought like you there would not be a need for the subdivisions of SSBBW and the mid-size BBW that was in use for a while.



Subdivisions which denote size are not related to 'perceived beauty.' The BBW and BHM portion of the description remains regardless of whether SS is appended to the front.



William said:


> If Fat acceptance was not so extremely subjective about looks you would see more extreme apple and column bodied BBWs sharing photos.



Pretty obviously there are only a small proportion of people whose bodies fall into the description of 'extreme' anything. Have you considered that there are fewer photo's of these body types shared because there are fewer people who can be described as such? Its a logical statistical conclusion and nothing to do with subjectivity or prejudice. 



William said:


> The question if all Fat Men and Women are Handsome and Beautiful in Fat Acceptance should not matter, but oh it does.....



Such is life. We have to suck it up exactly as thin people do. This is NOTHING to do with acceptance and suggesting it is purely related to larger people is spurious in the extreme. 



William said:


> Do you believe that Fat Acceptance promotes body Acceptance evenly for both Fat Men and Women? All Fat Women and Men?



Yes I do - but within the broader Acceptance Movement are millions of individual opinions. We're all human, we all have likes and dislikes, prejudices and preconceptions and we're all entitled to our personal opinions. I think you might confusing the Size Acceptance movement which DOES accept all body types with the personal opinions of individuals which dont. These are two separate concepts and if you are waiting for universal approval for every single body type from every individual I suspect its going to be a very long wait. See my previous comments that we just have to 'Suck it Up'. 

Tracey


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## olwen (Mar 18, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> Here is what I have written so far, it was not easy because it is a touchy subject, but it has been one sided for too long.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing William. I'm pretty sure I understand what you are saying, but I have some questions. 

I'm not sure I understand this part: _"Is it terrible if Fat Acceptance acknowledges that some fat peoples fat only makes them fatter than skinny people and for other Fat People their fat either works for them or against them?"_ Doesn't all our fat make us fatter than skinny people? Wouldn't whether or not fat works for you or against you apply to everybody? Some people cope better than others....I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify this a bit? 

As to this: "A Community like Fat Acceptance has to be fair and realistic and not a fantasy if it is really going to help People. There are Fat Men and Women who are not going to identify with the BHM and BBW images. Fat Acceptance should be inclusive of their mindset also." What exactly are the BHM and BBW images you have in mind? Seriously, are you talking about some physical ideal or some mental ideal? ...what are those ideals? I'm not trying to be argumentative here either, I just truly don't know quite what you mean. The only thing that comes close to an ideal that I've heard of is the idea that fat women look better pear shaped. 

Aside from the questions, my first thought was that you're hung up on acronyms. Honestly, they are just descriptors, not the embodiment of all that is fat woman and fat man. When I hear BBW and BHM uttered, honestly, I don't picture anything in my head. To me they're interchangeable with "fat chick", "fat guy," "fattie." I use them all. 

I have more to say, but I'll hold off on my comments till you can answer my questions.


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## olwen (Mar 18, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Bea Bea
> 
> The acronyms BBW and BHM are all about looks, you are using your own concepts and projecting them onto how they are used in Fat Acceptance. If people in Fat Acceptance thought like you there would not be a need for the subdivisions of SSBBW and the mid-size BBW that was in use for a while.
> 
> ...



Okay, I see what you are trying to say - I think. 

William, my honest view is that this has less to do with fat - well nothing to do with fat actually, and everything to do with the male gaze and male sexuality. I agree that there are far more representations of fat women than there are of fat men. I just don't think the fat acceptance movement is responsible for that. Women in general don't have as many representations of sexualized men as men do of women. The reason there aren't more pictures of apple shaped and column shaped women is because that isn't what most guys want to see, and that isn't quite what most would pay to see. Some would love to see all shapes, but that seems to be what most guys like. Even guys who like thin women want to see some definition of the hips. That's just a guy thing, not a fat people thing or a fat acceptance thing. 

I'm nowhere near pear shaped but that's okay. I still think I'm beautiful. That I don't live up to a feminine ideal doesn't mean that I don't still think of myself as a big beautiful woman. Beauty is what you make of it. 

Now the question as it pertains to you is: is there a masculine ideal, or is there a fat masculine ideal and I think the answer is no. Mostly because women aren't given the opportunity to "gaze" the way men are. Women, no matter what kinds of guys they like, don't get the eye candy with the same ubiquity as men. Tho there are examples in art like Davinci's "David" remember Davinci was gay. I think that represents what gay men want to see more than it does what women want to see. This wasn't an ideal chosen by a woman but by a man. 

Also, while fat falls differently on everybody, it seems to me like there isn't the same kind of variety of shapes where fat men are concerned, but sadly, I've never had the opportunity to study hundreds of pictures of naked fat men, so I could be wrong about that. 

I think what you are asking for is not going to happen because a) would women be willing to pay to see naked men (no matter what they look like) with the same willingness as a lot of men? b) would men (no matter what they look like) be willing to offer themselves up to the feminine gaze? 

Also, I do understand that there would seem to be a masculine ideal if you go by hollywood's standards, but - and this is something I pay close attention to - when the entertainment business makes any kind of commentary about masculinity it is usually about what makes a man a man, not what a man looks like. If you look at movies from the 1940's - 1970's, you'll see lots of examples of a man's man or a ladies man, or a tough guy. Then notice what those guys look like. They all look tough and rugged. While they are thin, their bodies just aren't put up to scrutiny, their attitudes are. Humphrey Bogart was 5'8." Whenever he worked with Lauren Bacall he wore lifts in his shoes so he could appear taller. That dude was the epitome of masculinity for quite some time. If you look at movies today, the masculine ideal might have changed to include the idea of a more sensitive metrosexual male, and he isn't always muscle bound or thin, not even in some action movies. 

I'm not trying to dismiss your very valid concerns about your own body image, and I'm not trying to say you aren't entitled to your feelings, cause I totally get it about wondering if you're masculine looking enough. I just think maybe your anger might be a little misplaced.

Whether or not there is a fat masculine ideal, I think you are free to define it for yourself.


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## kayrae (Mar 18, 2009)

I really like the discussions that we're bringing up here. It's weird because I have close BHM friends who really don't talk about their body image. William, fwiw, I appreciate that you're willing to start talking about it.


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree with William's take on the terms, but I have different reasoning why. 

I've seen people take it, and not only have personal negative body image, but resort to bodysnarking (Thank you Vickie ) others. I'm not a numbers person again, but I am a group person. I mean, it's ok to have a personal limit to what you may find acceptable (Though I advocate tact), but I can't sit there and wink at someone if they hate fat people as a whole and they're fat yet decide they're a blah blah blah.... That to me is just a slap in the face to everything, and that's my personal views on why I don't think every fat person should take it. Too often have I seen it used as a crutch.


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## Jon Blaze (Mar 19, 2009)

kayrae said:


> I really like the discussions that we're bringing up here. It's weird because I have close BHM friends who really don't talk about their body image. William, fwiw, I appreciate that you're willing to start talking about it.



Plus one to that. I'd love to listen in!


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## tonynyc (Mar 19, 2009)

*I only came up with a few things and it's late and I need my rest- so I shall post more later. William does bring up some interesting points on Body Image and Body Issues and it's good that this thread can be the start of a forum to discuss these issues. 

I remember one documentary which was done in the early 90's called Fat Chance. It aired on PBS over 12 years ago and I have not seen it since.* 

*Fat Chance : The Big Prejudice Review *

_"I'm a fat man and I hate myself for it."

Rick is 40 years old. He weighs 400lbs. His blood pressure is 160/112. He has been dieting since he was 12. "Fat Chance" is a daunting documentary film about a fat man trying to lose 200lbs. Or is it? 

Rick Zakowich believes dieting is the only way he can become healthy and ultimately feel better about himself. In "Fat Chance" we follow Rick to his doctor's appointments and trips to the weight loss clinic; shirtless, having his rolls measured by callipers, his girth calculated and his body weighed with two scales while in the background a "Target Get Fit" sign looms. We witness the humility of it all.

In the real world of shopping, exercise, sexuality, family, friends and work, Rick reflects on how his weight looks to others and the effect it has had on him emotionally. "My life is on hold until I lose this weight," he says.

Rick's life is quite typical of many fat people. He grew up in a loving family where food was a part of his identity. He was teased at school with the usual "fatso!" and "fatpig!" He learned quickly "being fat was connected to everything negative. It meant that you were stupid and lazy and didn't have any self control." Rick coped by becoming the clown.

There's more to Rick than the numbers on the scale. He's a caring man who works with abused children. He's a pretty good singer and songwriter and he paints. When he loses 30lbs he still doesn't feel better about himself, "I'm losing weight but I'm not happy." Despite being really down he still manages to work with troubled kids, manages to bring them up and make them feel better about themselves.

Rick posts flyers around town looking for other fat men in an attempt to form a support group. The first person to join is Dr. Mo Lerner. Dr. Learner is an obese practitioner who used to be an active man. "I'm afraid of the day I won't be able to walk anymore," says Mo in a candid conversation with Rick. Together they form their support group. They attend fat conferences and interview other fat people. Suddenly the video takes a 180 degree turn becoming about acceptance rather than changing what you have and are. After the conference there's an immediate change in Rick, "somebody listened," he says. Rick suddenly accepts himself and believes he has something to offer. He becomes an advocate and a role model for fat men even women.

A lot of the 'fat dialogue' in our society involves women. Fat is not only a female issue although you wouldn't know it from all the diet ads. I enjoyed witnessing a man's opinions and emotions on growing up fat, living with fat and surviving with fat in a skinny world. It's often taken for granted that fat men have it easier than fat women. In some cases it may be true. "Fat Chance" shows there are men out there who are hurting too and they can feel good about themselves. They deserve to be happy. 

Despite being filmed in 1994, the content is still relevant. My only qualm was the lack of subtitles for people being interviewed (i.e. So-and-So from Albuquerque). I highly recommend this film. The unfortunate thing is if you want to see Fat Chance you probably won't find it in your local video store. _

*The National Film Board of Canada
BullFrog Films Inc., 1994*

Source:
Fat Chance: The Big Prejudice Review - Large & Lovely

*Fat Chance-Video Through Amplestuff*

 Fat Chance -Video Through Amplestuff.com website 

*You may have to check with Amplestuff if this item is still available*

==========================================================

*Nice summary of different findings below-but, not much listings for BHM.*

_"Perhaps surprisingly, given that their physique is closest to the stereotype masculine ideal, male body-builders experience greater dissatisfaction with their appearance than almost any other males. Body-builders are generally regarded as vain: in fact they suffer from low self-esteem combined with high perfectionism."_

 Mirror,mirror-A summary of research findings on body image


*Another study -but, this focuses on Body Image of Women *

 Psychology of Ideal Body Image as an Oppressive Force in the Lives of Women


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## William (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

I only questioned the support that Fat Acceptance gives to its Fat Members

Do you realize that your answers are all on what you thought people subjectively thought of as attractive? You also answered a lot with your own personal perceptions which are really do not answer my questions about Fat Acceptance.

Fat Acceptance is a artificial support system for Fat People, it is a activist movement for the rights of Fat People. You gave out the best answer to my questions earlier, You said something like "If we don't think we are beautiful then no-one else will". 

But then later you said that there are millions (I question that) of people in the Size Acceptance Community and they have the right to be just as subjective and narrow-minded as the people that created the need for Fat Acceptance in the first place.

I ask the question if all Fat Men and Woman equally accepted in Fat Acceptance because what Fat Acceptance is suppose to be fighting for and for the support and empowerment that it is suppose to be giving out to all Fat People. 

It seems that Fat Acceptance is a little if not a lot off track.

What has happen to the noble intentions and acceptance from early Fat Acceptance? This paper is from 1973, Fat Acceptance if anything has devolved!
http://www.eskimo.com/~largesse/Archives/FU/manifesto.html


If Fat Acceptance is going to be more than a joke then it will have to come up with (reinvent) a solid Doctrine and draw a line in ground and stand its ground

William







BeaBea said:


> Of course I am! I'm giving my opinion. And you are giving yours. And neither is correct - they're just personal viewpoints.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tina (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> Is it terrible if Fat Acceptance acknowledges that some fat people’s fat only makes them fatter than skinny people and for other Fat People their fat either works for them or against them? Fat Acceptance has always had the stance that the magical acronym “BBW” makes every Fat Woman a Venus of Willendorf. Fat Men in comparison have been marginally accepted in Fat acceptance with no universal benefits attached to the BHM acronym.


William,

Ever since I've been involved in Fat Acceptance, it has been acknowledged, by both males and females, that not all BBW are beautiful, so I believe you're setting up a straw man argument there to try to prop up your baseless assertion that supposedly people say that all fat women, therefore BBW, are beautiful, but that there is no equal for all fat men to be handsome/BHM. There is that equal right here.

Because of gender differences, it's true that you'll hear fewer men talking about body issues. I remember the first commercial to address that was a Special K commercial (I think that's the cereal it was), with a guy sitting there talking about his body issues just like a woman would about her body issues. It was somewhat comical in that we aren't used to men talking about that stuff. Doesn't mean that men don't have those feelings, though. So you're right that fewer men will talk about it, but that doesn't mean that women are not willing to listen. This is not the fault of Fat Acceptance or Size Acceptance -- and certainly not Dimensions; it is the fault of entrenched gender norms within society that dictate what is 'manly' and what is 'womanly.'


> A Community like Fat Acceptance has to be fair and realistic and not a fantasy if it is really going to help People. There are Fat Men and Women who are not going to identify with the BHM and BBW images. Fat Acceptance should be inclusive of their mindset also.


What specific remedies do you suggest for this? What images do you suggest they be offered? I'm not sure I'm following you here, which is why I ask.


> I am more and more appreciating the 1970s writing of the Fat Underground, this was before the creation of the acronyms like BBW and BHM, even though these ladies were radical Feminists, their writings center around helping Fat People, they were all inclusive. I love that these women centered their work on Fat People needing support, where did that inclusiveness go in Fat Acceptance?


That's a two-way street. No one just stopped 'including' fat men, William.


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## William (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Olwen

Like Bea Bea you expanded your answer to cover society in general while I am only asking what Fat Acceptance should stand for and promote. I do not think that Fat Acceptance should in anyway promote most favorite body types inside Fat Acceptance as society in general does. The truth is that there is just as much body politics inside of Fat Acceptance as in Society.

I know that women are not into photos like men are and that is why I only used the Fat Women side as a example. When women post their photos that is not a example of Fat Acceptance empowering them to love their bodies. It is all the support that led up to them sharing a photo that is the empowerment and that is what Fat Men generally get pasted by in most of Fat Acceptance that is not dedicated to them..

I will ask my question in another way. 

Is Fat Acceptance doing its job if only some Fat Members (Male and Female) receive full support and empowering?

I would not call what I feel anger, just disappointment that in many ways Fat Acceptance is not much more Fat Accepting than Society

William






olwen said:


> Okay, I see what you are trying to say - I think.
> 
> William, my honest view is that this has less to do with fat - well nothing to do with fat actually, and everything to do with the male gaze and male sexuality. I agree that there are far more representations of fat women than there are of fat men. I just don't think the fat acceptance movement is responsible for that. Women in general don't have as many representations of sexualized men as men do of women. The reason there aren't more pictures of apple shaped and column shaped women is because that isn't what most guys want to see, and that isn't quite what most would pay to see. Some would love to see all shapes, but that seems to be what most guys like. Even guys who like thin women want to see some definition of the hips. That's just a guy thing, not a fat people thing or a fat acceptance thing.
> 
> ...


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## BeaBea (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> I do not think that Fat Acceptance should in anyway promote most favorite body types inside Fat Acceptance as society in general does.


Theres no evidence that 'Fat Acceptance' does - only that some people do. They are entitled to their opinions just as you are entitled to yours.


William said:


> Is Fat Acceptance doing its job if only some Fat Members (Male and Female) receive full support and empowering?


Size Acceptance is a general movement - its a feeling, a state of mind and a way of living. Its not a regimented cult which demands total obedience and strict adherence to the party line from all of its members. It cant be all things to all people.

Generally the kind of support that you seem to be seeking can only come from two places. It can come from within, when you decide you fully accept and love yourself - or it can come from a friend or partner who can nurture you in such a way that you start to believe. Expecting a diverse group of people who share a few ideals to make you feel completely accepted and empowered just isnt going to work. 

IMO you need to stop being so negative about a movement which is generally a force for good and start looking a lot closer to home.

Tracey


----------



## William (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

I would say that there is a group conscious in Fat Acceptance, most of use use and spread the Dogma of Fat Acceptance.

Wouldn't the second part of your post be a lot more efficient if you just say that not all people are equally supported and accepted by Fat Acceptance? 

My acceptance of myself and my acceptance of Fat Acceptance are two separate issues. I do not believe in the status Quo or letting things stay buried, but I would not give up on Fat Acceptance.

I would also add that Fat Acceptance can and has been strict and controlling on some issues- WLS, Dieting, Feederism...................

I still think that the early early mission statements of Fat Acceptance are worth chasing.

William




BeaBea said:


> Theres no evidence that 'Fat Acceptance' does - only that some people do. They are entitled to their opinions just as you are entitled to yours.
> 
> Size Acceptance is a general movement - its a feeling, a state of mind and a way of living. Its not a regimented cult which demands total obedience and strict adherence to the party line from all of its members. It cant be all things to all people.
> 
> ...


----------



## BeaBea (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> Wouldn't the second part of your post be a lot more efficient if you just say that not all people are equally supported and accepted by Fat Acceptance?


No, because thats NOT what I believe. I believe all bigger body types are supported and accepted by Size Acceptance. However they are not equally supported and accepted by all participants in Size Acceptance. These are two different concepts that you dont seem to be grasping.


William said:


> I would also add that Fat Acceptance can and has been strict and controlling on some issues- WLS, Dieting, Feederism............


When you say 'Fat Acceptance' in that context who exactly do you mean? If you mean NAAFA then you need to be having this whole discussion with them. If you mean Dimensions then you need to put your protests to the Mods as and when this perceived lack of support occurs to see if Conrads definitions agree with yours. Continuing to attack 'Size Acceptance in such an unfocussed way does nothing but harm.

Tracey


----------



## William (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

Does this mean that you only equate acceptance and support as being when someone goes GaGa over another person's body? My support and acceptance in Fat Acceptance is not limited to who I find attractive.

Fat Acceptance is like a headless dragon and the only way things will change is if people talk about them. Fat Acceptance can never afford to become a Sacred Cow where criticism is off limits.

You may feel that I am "attacking" Fat Acceptance, I feel that I am only asking simple questions that are not being fully answered.

Well I am going back to my assignment, I have about 1,000 words to go

Thanks William




BeaBea said:


> No, because thats NOT what I believe. I believe all bigger body types are supported and accepted by Size Acceptance. However they are not equally supported and accepted by all participants in Size Acceptance. These are two different concepts that you dont seem to be grasping.
> 
> When you say 'Fat Acceptance' in that context who exactly do you mean? If you mean NAAFA then you need to be having this whole discussion with them. If you mean Dimensions then you need to put your protests to the Mods as and when this perceived lack of support occurs to see if Conrads definitions agree with yours. Continuing to attack 'Size Acceptance in such an unfocussed way does nothing but harm.
> 
> Tracey


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## BeaBea (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> Does this mean that you only equate acceptance and support as being when someone goes GaGa over another person's body?


No - thats not what I'm saying. I'm being as clear as I can here: Size Acceptance offers support to everyone regardless of body type but within that, individual people will still have preferences and you cant legislate against that.


William said:


> My support and acceptance in Fat Acceptance is not limited to who I find attractive.



And again, to repeat, neither is mine. I'm straight but I spend the majority of my time here talking and discussing size acceptance with women. My activism work is aimed equally at both sexes.

That being said - for all the good intentions in this thread I feel its got badly de-railed into the familiar territory that is Williamland. I'm going to withdraw and see if anyone else wants to discuss this issue with you.

Tracey


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## olwen (Mar 19, 2009)

tonynyc said:


> *I only came up with a few things and it's late and I need my rest- so I shall post more later. William does bring up some interesting points on Body Image and Body Issues and it's good that this thread can be the start of a forum to discuss these issues.
> 
> I remember one documentary which was done in the early 90's called Fat Chance. It aired on PBS over 12 years ago and I have not seen it since.*
> 
> ...



I saw that documentary a few months ago. It's available on Netflix. 

I was struck by his frustration with getting other men to join the group. The convention he went to in the documentary was his first. He had never seen that kind of camaraderie before either. I did like how by the end of the doc, he was comfortable enough with his body to pose nude for a photographer....makes me think about the adipositivity site. It would be cool if a fat guy could start a fat guy equivalent. I wonder too if Substantia would be willing to photograph any fat men who wanted to pose for her...


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## Victim (Mar 19, 2009)

At the BFC we started Oogle Girth, http://bhmffaconnection.com/ooglegirth/

It is a modeling site for BHMs. We've been trying to get more submissions.


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## William (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Tracey

Talk of de-railing!

You manage not to answer or not to address almost all of the questions that I asked and all of them were simple questions.

You finally resort to sarcasm because it is the easy way out.


William 




BeaBea said:


> No - thats not what I'm saying. I'm being as clear as I can here: Size Acceptance offers support to everyone regardless of body type but within that, individual people will still have preferences and you cant legislate against that.
> 
> 
> And again, to repeat, neither is mine. I'm straight but I spend the majority of my time here talking and discussing size acceptance with women. My activism work is aimed equally at both sexes.
> ...


----------



## olwen (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Bea Bea
> 
> I only questioned the support that Fat Acceptance gives to its Fat Members
> 
> ...



The fat acceptance movement is not an artificial support system to me. You must realize tho, that it is made up of everyday people. There is a feminist, Ellen Bravo, who heads up the 9 to 5 center in Wisconsin (or Minnesota, I can never remember which) who has given a very good definition of "feminist." She says a feminist is someone who supports women. Anytime someone helps a woman they are being a feminist. That help doesn't have to be political or legal. It could be something as simple as babysitting your friend's kids, or listening when they need an ear. Anytime we do something that elevates a woman we are making a feminist act. DIY. I believe the same is true about the fat acceptance movement. Whenever you or I or anyone else does anything to elevate a fat person they are being fat activists. We don't need to rely entirely on nonprofit organizations or legal institutions. So whenever you look to fat acceptance, whenever you refer to it, I get this picture of a sort of big brother organization. I sometimes think you half expect a giant hand to come down out of the sky and flick it's pointer finger at us to shake some sense into all of us. I know it sounds ridiculous but that's what I imagine. Please feel free to tell me if I'm off base here, but while I understand wanting this massive thing to be all encompassing and omnipotent, it isn't. Fat acceptance is people like you and me brother. Ordinary people doing ordinary things. Look to individuals to listen to you. There's no way this movement can represent us all, same way the Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, and even President Obama didn't/don't represent all black people. 

So I don't believe we all shouldn't work together, I really really think you need to appeal to other fat men much more than you need to appeal to fat women. I totally get the body image issues, believe me I really do, but I'm not a man. Part of the disconnect for me is trying to understand what sort of masculine ideal you or any other man has in his head not only regarding behavior but also body image. 

I really do think men are the ones who ultimately define that masculine ideal for themselves, not so much women...it's like how (to me anyway) women are tougher on other women about looks. Women can be the worst critics when it comes to that. I know my female friends will notice stuff my male friends would never pick up on. Honestly, for me, it's the women around me who have made me feel self conscious about certain aspects of my appearance. I've never had straight guys comment about my eyebrows or my nails or my sideburns. Always women and gay dudes.


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## BeaBea (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> You manage not to answer or not to address almost all of the questions that I asked and all of them were simple questions.


Rofl - how does it feel William? Do tell me because its not something I've EVER experienced from you.


William said:


> You finally resort to sarcasm because it is the easy way out.


My previous posts were in no way sarcastic. I have sprinkled a little over this one though, just so you can learn the difference.

Hope it helps

Tracey


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## olwen (Mar 19, 2009)

Victim said:


> At the BFC we started Oogle Girth, http://bhmffaconnection.com/ooglegirth/
> 
> It is a modeling site for BHMs. We've been trying to get more submissions.



Didn't it look different before? I don't remember needing to log in to see the pics.


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## Victim (Mar 19, 2009)

It used to be on a stand-alone site when Smite was running it. Now it is on the BFC's site. I should point that out to Yelsa, maybe he can allow viewing the content without logging in.


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## William (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea 

Your posts were OK until you had to run and blame me. 

I have to run now, but if anyone else want to make a honest attempt of answering the questions that I asked, feel free.

Hi Olwen I will have to reply later

William




BeaBea said:


> Rofl - how does it feel William? Do tell me because its not something I've EVER experienced from you.
> 
> My previous posts were in no way sarcastic. I have sprinkled a little over this one though, just so you can learn the difference.
> 
> ...


----------



## BeaBea (Mar 19, 2009)

Side bar - if anyone else thinks I 'blamed' William I'd appreciate their comments - either here or via PM. Despite my strong feelings about the BHM issues I'm not going to participate in the thread any more. 

Thank you
Tracey


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## Miss Vickie (Mar 19, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Bea Bea
> 
> Your posts were OK until you had to run and blame me.
> 
> ...



Hey, William.

I think Tracey's posts were very respectful to you. I'm not sure where you saw sarcasm, but it read from here that she was genuinely trying to understand your point of view. Since I've always found her to be evenhanded, I'm a little surprised at your accusation.

BTW, Tina seemed interested in discussing the issue with you when she posted what I've quoted below. Why didn't you respond to her, if you want so desperately someone to talk to about this? I think she makes a good point and asks really relevant questions.



Tina said:


> William,
> 
> Ever since I've been involved in Fat Acceptance, it has been acknowledged, by both males and females, that not all BBW are beautiful, so I believe you're setting up a straw man argument there to try to prop up your baseless assertion that supposedly people say that all fat women, therefore BBW, are beautiful, but that there is no equal for all fat men to be handsome/BHM. There is that equal right here.
> 
> ...


----------



## William (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Vickie

I have never complained about the quantity of material or the lack of exposure of Fat Men in Fat Fat Acceptance, like I said I do not know if Fat Men will ever truly join Fat Acceptance. 

That has nothing to do with the quality of what is said and reported in Fat Acceptance about Fat Men and the absence of Fat Men in Fat Acceptance does not give the right for others to fill in the missing information on Fat Men with what they guess is the right answer.

Like liked all of Bea Bea posts until she exited the conversation using the standard sarcasm that the _clique _in Dimensions rely on. Rather than use sarcasm I reply with a answer why I think a person is wrong about something. There is no reason to throw a fit because you can not control what the other person says and thinks. 

I did not even see Tina's Post, but I agree with it, but as I said I do not care about the quantity of information on Fat Men, just the quality of the information. 

William




Miss Vickie said:


> Hey, William.
> 
> I think Tracey's posts were very respectful to you. I'm not sure where you saw sarcasm, but it read from here that she was genuinely trying to understand your point of view. Since I've always found her to be evenhanded, I'm a little surprised at your accusation.
> 
> BTW, Tina seemed interested in discussing the issue with you when she posted what I've quoted below. Why didn't you respond to her, if you want so desperately someone to talk to about this? I think she makes a good point and asks really relevant questions.


----------



## Gspoon (Mar 20, 2009)

All I think when it comes to this are the terms

The terms I go by are FA, BBW, and BHM.

I never say FFA, because what is the real difference between the 2? Its like saying someone is straight, but you don't say Straight and Female Straight. So when I saw FA, that means in my book that you love fat on your partner


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 20, 2009)

Gspoon said:


> All I think when it comes to this are the terms
> 
> The terms I go by are FA, BBW, and BHM.
> 
> I never say FFA, because what is the real difference between the 2? Its like saying someone is straight, but you don't say Straight and Female Straight. So when I saw FA, that means in my book that you love fat on your partner



Well this argument was hashed out on the FFA/BHM board. 

One reason for having the term FFA is that these are sexually based terms and as such need to denote gender in the same way the words "gay" and "lesbian" both refer to homosexuals but they are seperate to identify male and female homosexuals.

Additionally, since much of the discussion is online, many prefer to self identify more clearly by including gender.


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## stan_der_man (Mar 20, 2009)

Gspoon said:


> All I think when it comes to this are the terms
> 
> The terms I go by are FA, BBW, and BHM.
> 
> I never say FFA, because what is the real difference between the 2? Its like saying someone is straight, but you don't say Straight and Female Straight. So when I saw FA, that means in my book that you love fat on your partner



Bingo... I completely agree with you Gspoon. In a world where we are trying to create descriptors that are gender neutral, here in Dimensions it is insisted upon that we create a category of people... the "FA" who is male and a sub-category "F" female "FA" who are also FAs but of a different variety... I also only use the term "FA" and qualify the description with male or female as needed. But that's just how Dims works and a whole thread in and of itself... Anyhoo...

I continually promise myself that I am thoroughly finished discussing male issues here because I've concluded that discussion of this topic is pointless for a variety of reasons... I'm a glutton for punishment I suppose, as is William... 

I'm not a BHM and I haven't formulated any cohesive opinion of the BHM experience to be honest, but I do think a lot of what is being discussed in this thread are simply gender issues that effect the interactions of women and men in society, not just fat acceptance. I don't necessarily agree with some of the things you say William (or perhaps they could be approached from a different perspective...) but I think you are the proverbial "canary in the coal mine". What you speak of are issues we face as men, things that cause us to feel the way we do and things that are the basis of our experience, and why men are who we are. As for the underlying question here as I see it... Is Fat Acceptance failing man (or BHMs in the case of this thread...) or are men failing Fat Acceptance? I do think men are somewhat marginalized in Fat Acceptance, I have had these feelings myself and still somewhat do, but I am not really sure if this is reality or just perception.

Without delving into a whole new discussion here, being a male can be a very lonely experience. Feeling marginalized as a male can happen very easily especially in an environment where a guy feels that their every move is being analyzed by a discerning group of females who are in a clear majority.


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## Victim (Mar 20, 2009)

> Without delving into a whole new discussion here, being a male can be a very lonely experience. Feeling marginalized as a male can happen very easily especially in an environment where a guy feels that their every move is being analyzed by a discerning group of females who are in a clear majority.



Many men need to let go of the imperitive that we have to somehow impress every woman within our 'domain' so as to keep them on the 'available' list, at the expense of expressing ourselves. Once you can do this, it is quite liberating because now you can go into a group of women and actually discuss things without worrying whether or not they still want to shag you afterwards. We may be already attached or whatever, but this need still drives us at an instinctual level.

I'm fairly certain I've annoyed some of the women on DIMS, but that isn't going to stop me from saying what I want because ultimately, it really isn't going to affect my life. It WOULD however, if I held back what I wanted to say or do because I didn't want to offend a 'potential mate'.

You can say this really doesn't have any correlation to the marginalization of BHM and the SA community, but I believe it does. We just have to be strong enough to assert ourselves. Anyone who has raised dogs knows the puppy that sits back and whimpers because it isn't getting any milk doesn't get much milk. The ones that nuzzle the others aside and eat are the ones that grow much stronger.


----------



## kayrae (Mar 20, 2009)

BeaBea, I don't think that you were playing the blame game.

Stan, I have to agree that this debate might just be a gender difference. I can understand if males feel marginalized in the movement. But I wonder, how do we create a more inclusive atmosphere for men? It would be great if there were more BHMs participating in this thread. Because when it's all said and done, I am not a fat man. I really don't know how they feel. I can only make assumptions, and I will probably continue to do so until I'm corrected. This isn't to say that I want to paint fat men in a negative light; however, I know myself well enough to know that I fill in the gaps whenever there is one.

William, you're concerned that the BHM experience should be an accurate representation in the size-acceptance movement. I agree. But what can we do to encourage other fat men to jump into the discussion? Also, I'd really like to get back to Tina's question because I think it's a good one.



> Because of gender differences, it's true that you'll hear fewer men talking about body issues. I remember the first commercial to address that was a Special K commercial (I think that's the cereal it was), with a guy sitting there talking about his body issues just like a woman would about her body issues. It was somewhat comical in that we aren't used to men talking about that stuff. Doesn't mean that men don't have those feelings, though. So you're right that fewer men will talk about it, but that doesn't mean that women are not willing to listen. This is not the fault of Fat Acceptance or Size Acceptance -- and certainly not Dimensions; it is the fault of entrenched gender norms within society that dictate what is 'manly' and what is 'womanly.'
> 
> *What specific remedies do you suggest for this? What images do you suggest they be offered? I'm not sure I'm following you here, which is why I ask.*



And I would lovelovelove to hear from other BHMs. William doesn't have to be the only one to express this particular concern.


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## William (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Kayrae

It is funny because it seems that it is OK for a guy to talk about his fat body if it is on a forum about weight loss and/or muscle building. Men will talk about trying to grow hair. They will talk about various Plastic Surgeries that they are having including breast reductions.

I will have to think about this

William





kayrae said:


> BeaBea, I don't think that you were playing the blame game.
> 
> Stan, I have to agree that this debate might just be a gender difference. I can understand if males feel marginalized in the movement. But I wonder, how do we create a more inclusive atmosphere for men? It would be great if there were more BHMs participating in this thread. Because when it's all said and done, I am not a fat man. I really don't know how they feel. I can only make assumptions, and I will probably continue to do so until I'm corrected. This isn't to say that I want to paint fat men in a negative light; however, I know myself well enough to know that I fill in the gaps whenever there is one.
> 
> ...


----------



## olwen (Mar 20, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Vickie
> 
> I have never complained about the quantity of material or the lack of exposure of Fat Men in Fat Fat Acceptance, like I said I do not know if Fat Men will ever truly join Fat Acceptance.
> 
> ...



The quality of the information about BHMs in the movement can only be improved by more quality information. Again, only having one source isn't enough if no one knows how to get to that source. Fat men have to speak up more. The only ones who can bear witness to your stories are BHMs.


----------



## olwen (Mar 20, 2009)

fa_man_stan said:


> Bingo... I completely agree with you Gspoon. In a world where we are trying to create descriptors that are gender neutral, here in Dimensions it is insisted upon that we create a category of people... the "FA" who is male and a sub-category "F" female "FA" who are also FAs but of a different variety... I also only use the term "FA" and qualify the description with male or female as needed. But that's just how Dims works and a whole thread in and of itself... Anyhoo...
> 
> I continually promise myself that I am thoroughly finished discussing male issues here because I've concluded that discussion of this topic is pointless for a variety of reasons... I'm a glutton for punishment I suppose, as is William...
> 
> ...



Thank you, yes, that's what I've been trying to say. 

As to your last paragraph.....there are parallels here and in the outside world where women are judged using the wrong set of criteria. If criticisms are handed out by women, whether tactfully or not, then that's when men cry foul most. Sometimes those are valid calls and sometimes they are not. I honestly don't know what to think when men are afraid to speak their minds for fear of criticism...in the wider world we are used to being marginalized in every sphere of life. Marginalized, ignored, criticized, judged harsly, and we are expected to bear more responsibilities with little to no pay or even thanks....makes sense for women to be vocal when they think they see reflections of that here - or anywhere for that matter. 

I get wanting to be able to express yourselves without being critiqued, no one wants to be judged, but if you want to be heard you all have to get over that and be willing to defend yourselves if need be. See women are used to that I think. We know we had better be able to back up our statements with facts and illustrative examples otherwise, we'll get that oh-isn't-she-cute-trying-to-express-opinions look from men sometimes. That's just the way it is. 

Do not fear the reaper Stan. ...I'm not sure what that means, but it popped into my head....


----------



## olwen (Mar 20, 2009)

Victim said:


> *Many men need to let go of the imperitive that we have to somehow impress every woman within our 'domain' so as to keep them on the 'available' list, at the expense of expressing ourselves. Once you can do this, it is quite liberating because now you can go into a group of women and actually discuss things without worrying whether or not they still want to shag you afterwards. We may be already attached or whatever, but this need still drives us at an instinctual level.*
> 
> I'm fairly certain I've annoyed some of the women on DIMS, but that isn't going to stop me from saying what I want because ultimately, it really isn't going to affect my life. It WOULD however, if I held back what I wanted to say or do because I didn't want to offend a 'potential mate'.
> 
> You can say this really doesn't have any correlation to the marginalization of BHM and the SA community, but I believe it does. We just have to be strong enough to assert ourselves. Anyone who has raised dogs knows the puppy that sits back and whimpers because it isn't getting any milk doesn't get much milk. The ones that nuzzle the others aside and eat are the ones that grow much stronger.



I would never have thought getting laid had anything to do with it. I'm honestly floored by this especially because we can tell when guys are trying too hard. If we like a guy, we just ignore that stuff if it doesn't go overboard. Now I'm wondering if other men agree with you?


----------



## olwen (Mar 20, 2009)

kayrae said:


> BeaBea, I don't think that you were playing the blame game.
> 
> Stan, I have to agree that this debate might just be a gender difference. I can understand if males feel marginalized in the movement. But I wonder, how do we create a more inclusive atmosphere for men? It would be great if there were more BHMs participating in this thread. Because when it's all said and done, I am not a fat man. I really don't know how they feel. I can only make assumptions, and I will probably continue to do so until I'm corrected. This isn't to say that I want to paint fat men in a negative light; however, I know myself well enough to know that I fill in the gaps whenever there is one.
> 
> ...



Ditto this. I'd love to hear from other BHMs too.


----------



## William (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Olwen

It also has to be many Fat Men coming forth and sharing to get a "Weighted" experience of Fat Men. Just the few who speak up on Dimension would give a skewed experience of Fat Men. 

William





olwen said:


> The quality of the information about BHMs in the movement can only be improved by more quality information. Again, only having one source isn't enough if no one knows how to get to that source. Fat men have to speak up more. The only ones who can bear witness to your stories are BHMs.


----------



## olwen (Mar 20, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> It also has to be many Fat Men coming forth and sharing to get a "Weighted" experience of Fat Men. Just the few who speak up on Dimension would give a skewed experience of Fat Men.
> 
> William



You're basically saying their testimonies don't count because there aren't enough of them. Do you see that by saying this you are marginalizing your fellow BHMs? 

Also, I'm don't know how these experiences are skewed, and if I don't know how, then it's because you haven't said how. Again, I'm not a guy so it's a little difficult for me to imagine. I want to understand but you have to tell me so I can understand.


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## William (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Olwen

I still see the greatest source of low quality information on Fat Men as coming from sources other than Fat Men. I know that it is a catch-22 because Fat Men are not stepping up to the plate, but seeing the statements that are already floating around Fat Acceptance could not be a attraction for them. 

I did not start to speak out about what I do not like about Fat Acceptance until I was well past the uncomfortable stage of sharing personal issues, which I have done on safer spaces than Dimensions.

William




olwen said:


> The quality of the information about BHMs in the movement can only be improved by more quality information. Again, only having one source isn't enough if no one knows how to get to that source. Fat men have to speak up more. The only ones who can bear witness to your stories are BHMs.


----------



## Carl1h (Mar 20, 2009)

olwen said:


> The quality of the information about BHMs in the movement can only be improved by more quality information. Again, only having one source isn't enough if no one knows how to get to that source. *Fat men have to speak up more. The only ones who can bear witness to your stories are BHMs.*



Most of the people who seem to be clamoring for the stories of BHMs are not BHMs. There are BHM stories on these forums, continuing to ask for BHM stories and complain that they aren't here reminds me of going out to eat with my family growing up. My dad would ask everyone where we should eat, we would make suggestions, there would be a silence, then my dad would ask again where we should go eat. This went on until someone brought up the restaurant where he wanted to eat. What story are you waiting to hear before you feel like you've heard a BHMs story?

If you don't want to hear what William has to say, why do you keep engaging him on this issue over and over and over. You don't seem to think it's helpful, you don't seem to think it advances the discussion, so why do it? Do you think actions match your stated goals? I have my doubts. Do you think this thread looks like a nice accepting place to discuss any sort of personal issue? The moral that I see in this thread, and learned from others like it, is that no longer how long and hard you talk about what's troubling you, you will be dismissed in the end.



Aireman said:


> Not touching this topic with a ten foot pole!!!





free2beme04 said:


> This will end badly.
> 
> Very badly.





William said:


> Hi
> 
> This topic never does turn out good because the same people turn out again and again to attack, attack, attack and harass until any communication is impossible. They will always see BHM's place in Fat Acceptance as a glass half full.
> 
> William





imfree said:


> :doh:Yah, here's a picture of the last guy who tried to touch this topic with a 10 foot hotstick!



I'm not the only one who doesn't see this as a good place to discuss this sort of issue. Sure, a nice hostile atmosphere and then you can say that if the BHMs don't come out and dance on command then we're responsible for our own bad position. Make up whatever you like to think, but don't blame me for what you put into your own head.

Most BHMs on this board understand what their position is within size acceptance, understand what it means when they choose not to participate and don't need to be called to task as if they were complaining about something that they weren't complaining about.


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## William (Mar 20, 2009)

yeah

If you just took my experiences you would have a narrow view of the experiences of Fat Men. I am not marginalizing them, I am basing that on simple statistical theory and that is why Physiologists and Socialists use populations of a certain size.

Experiences from a few Fat Men would at least be going in the right direction  

William




olwen said:


> You're basically saying their testimonies don't count because there aren't enough of them. Do you see that by saying this you are marginalizing your fellow BHMs?
> 
> Also, I'm don't know how these experiences are skewed, and if I don't know how, then it's because you haven't said how. Again, I'm not a guy so it's a little difficult for me to imagine. I want to understand but you have to tell me so I can understand.


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## William (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Carl

I would not even share anything meaningful on the FFA/BHM Board because of the lack of privacy. I do like everyone on it, but it is too open.

Amazingly my home ground in Fat Acceptance has no Fat Gender arguments. There are few Fat Men who speak up and everyone there shares what they know their own experiences and they do not write the history of others.

Right now all I do is moderate and that mainly consists of deleting diet ads.

William






Carl1h said:


> Most of the people who seem to be clamoring for the stories of BHMs are not BHMs. There are BHM stories on these forums, continuing to ask for BHM stories and complain that they aren't here reminds me of going out to eat with my family growing up. My dad would ask everyone where we should eat, we would make suggestions, there would be a silence, then my dad would ask again where we should go eat. This went on until someone brought up the restaurant where he wanted to eat. What story are you waiting to hear before you feel like you've heard a BHMs story?
> 
> If you don't want to hear what William has to say, why do you keep engaging him on this issue over and over and over. You don't seem to think it's helpful, you don't seem to think it advances the discussion, so why do it? Do you think actions match your stated goals? I have my doubts. Do you think this thread looks like a nice accepting place to discuss any sort of personal issue? The moral that I see in this thread, and learned from others like it, is that no longer how long and hard you talk about what's troubling you, you will be dismissed in the end.
> 
> ...


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## olwen (Mar 20, 2009)

Carl1h said:


> Most of the people who seem to be clamoring for the stories of BHMs are not BHMs. There are BHM stories on these forums, continuing to ask for BHM stories and complain that they aren't here reminds me of going out to eat with my family growing up. My dad would ask everyone where we should eat, we would make suggestions, there would be a silence, then my dad would ask again where we should go eat. This went on until someone brought up the restaurant where he wanted to eat. What story are you waiting to hear before you feel like you've heard a BHMs story?
> 
> If you don't want to hear what William has to say, why do you keep engaging him on this issue over and over and over. You don't seem to think it's helpful, you don't seem to think it advances the discussion, so why do it? Do you think actions match your stated goals? I have my doubts. Do you think this thread looks like a nice accepting place to discuss any sort of personal issue? The moral that I see in this thread, and learned from others like it, is that no longer how long and hard you talk about what's troubling you, you will be dismissed in the end.
> 
> ...





I have my own ideas about what issues BHMs tend to have. I've said in other threads I think they are mostly issues about how to meet women and how to have the confidence to do that. Then there are issues of how fat could feminize a man's body. I understand that Carl. If there are other issues besides that I'd like to hear about them. I don't spend all my time on the BHM board, and I don't know any BHMs in my personal life. I don't spend all my time reading blogs either. I don't even have the time to write regularly in my own. If there are other issues besides the aforementioned ones I'd like to know about it. Since willliam is the one bringing this up I'd like to know specifically what else is the trouble. If you see asking simple questions as hostility then I don't know what to tell you. I've already acknowledged that I'm not a man so I can't know what other issues there are. I might have ideas about them, but I don't know if what I think is fact. So I'm asking. 

If you are not complaining then you don't have a problem do you? William is the one who is complaining and I'm asking him for clarification because I said I don't understand. I'm ACKNOWLEDGING that I don't understand. How many different ways can I say that? How can I know if no one says what the issues are? If you don't want to discuss those issues then fine, but don't come in here and tell me I'm being hostile for asking for clarity for an issue I didn't even bring up in the first place. Asking men to speak to being men is not a hostile question, but if you think so then fine. 

I'm not a mind reader Carl.


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## William (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Olwen

Fat Men have many of the same problems that Fat Women have with Doctors & Weight, booth seating, seat belts in cars (I do not need a extender in mine, I have the problem of my size making the belt resting right across my throat which I find unnerving).

As a guy I do not get many comments in public, but health and vegetarian magazines and website often make the comments for the public. These are ones that quickly come to mind and Fat Acceptance most often focuses on how none of these exist.

Working in the Addiction Field I have read client notes from Counselors where a male client's morbid obesity being viewed as a mental issue was given far too much attention weighed to the fact that the client was a full blown crack addict and Alcoholic. I know for a fact that the Counselor never address the obesity issue directly with the client, but you know it jaded the Counselor's recommendations.

Sharing experiences like these are a waste of time if Fat Acceptance's official stance is that Fat Men do not have that much of a problem.

William





olwen said:


> I have my own ideas about what issues BHMs tend to have. I've said in other threads I think they are mostly issues about how to meet women and how to have the confidence to do that. Then there are issues of how fat could feminize a man's body. I understand that Carl. If there are other issues besides that I'd like to hear about them. I don't spend all my time on the BHM board, and I don't know any BHMs in my personal life. I don't spend all my time reading blogs either. I don't even have the time to write regularly in my own. If there are other issues besides the aforementioned ones I'd like to know about it. Since willliam is the one bringing this up I'd like to know specifically what else is the trouble. If you see asking simple questions as hostility then I don't know what to tell you. I've already acknowledged that I'm not a man so I can't know what other issues there are. I might have ideas about them, but I don't know if what I think is fact. So I'm asking.
> 
> If you are not complaining then you don't have a problem do you? William is the one who is complaining and I'm asking him for clarification because I said I don't understand. I'm ACKNOWLEDGING that I don't understand. How many different ways can I say that? How can I know if no one says what the issues are? If you don't want to discuss those issues then fine, but don't come in here and tell me I'm being hostile for asking for clarity for an issue I didn't even bring up in the first place. Asking men to speak to being men is not a hostile question, but if you think so then fine.
> 
> I'm not a mind reader Carl.


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## kayrae (Mar 21, 2009)

William, for me personally, I don't think that fat acceptance's official stance is that fat men don't have problems. I'm becoming more and more of a fat activist everyday. I'm not part of NAAFA or any other official fat activist organization, so perhaps what you're saying could be true. You've been around the movement longer than me.

Carl, the women who are engaging William in dialogue really do want to hear him out. At least I do. William obviously has something to say. I don't see why we should ignore him. And if we keep clamoring for other BHMs to jump in on the discussion, it's because we need to hear more than his perspective. I'm not speaking for William here, but I suspect that he would also appreciate to hear another fat man's experiences. 



William said:


> Sharing experiences like these are a waste of time if Fat Acceptance's official stance is that Fat Men do not have that much of a problem.


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## William (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Kayrae

I say Fat Acceptance but Fat Acceptance is like herd of Buffalo, no clear leadership, but certain statements about the greater acceptance of Fat Men keep reoccurring and for many people that is all they care so state about Fat Men.

Olwen, Bea Bea and you have done a great job in this thread, but there are far too many other people at Dimensions who's main activity has been to destroy any meaningful sharing of Fat Male Issues by bombarding the thread with silly posts. 

William




kayrae said:


> William, for me personally, I don't think that fat acceptance's official stance is that fat men don't have problems. I'm becoming more and more of a fat activist everyday. I'm not part of NAAFA or any other official fat activist organization, so perhaps what you're saying could be true. You've been around the movement longer than me.
> 
> Carl, the women who are engaging William in dialogue really do want to hear him out. At least I do. William obviously has something to say. I don't see why we should ignore him. And if we keep clamoring for other BHMs to jump in on the discussion, it's because we need to hear more than his perspective. I'm not speaking for William here, but I suspect that he would also appreciate to hear another fat man's experiences.


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## BeaBea (Mar 21, 2009)

kayrae said:


> William, for me personally, I don't think that fat acceptance's official stance is that fat men don't have problems. I'm becoming more and more of a fat activist everyday. I'm not part of NAAFA or any other official fat activist organization, so perhaps what you're saying could be true.



Still reading, but I cant help but comment on this;

Like you Kayrae I do what I can for Fat Activism, I work as a Consultant for a Company that makes Medical Equipment for larger patients and I help with R&D and Product Development. I also give Seminars on Patient Dignity for Medical Staff as well as giving training courses on Manual Handling - and I address Size Prejudice and Acceptance in all of these arenas.

When we say that 'Fat Acceptance' IS this, or ISNT something else I have no idea who we really mean. When we discuss the 'Official Stance' I dont understand if people are talking about NAAFA or Dims or some other Body. Its very hard to understand how we can address the issue of marginalisation if we cant identify who we need to address it with.

Can anyone clarify?

Tracey


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## SamanthaNY (Mar 21, 2009)

William said:


> seat belts in cars (I do not need a extender in mine, I have the problem of my size making the belt resting right across my throat which I find unnerving).


Excuse the off topic interruption, but I saw this post of yours and wanted to offer a solution for your seat belt problem, William. View this thread if you're interested, and perhaps it can be of help to you.


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## William (Mar 21, 2009)

Thanks for the tip!!

William



SamanthaNY said:


> Excuse the off topic interruption, but I saw this post of yours and wanted to offer a solution for your seat belt problem, William. View this thread if you're interested, and perhaps it can be of help to you.


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## William (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

There is no one center of Fat Acceptance but the sum of our thoughts and convictions is what Fat Acceptance is and except for a few voices most of what Fat Acceptance says about Fat Men is refuting the thought of Fat Men having issues. Most people refer to Fat Acceptance as a community.

If someone is discussing Fat Woman issues the most likely statement about Fat Men will still be about how Fat Men are not really bothered by the issue (I am not talking about gender specific issues).

William 





BeaBea said:


> Still reading, but I cant help but comment on this;
> 
> Like you Kayrae I do what I can for Fat Activism, I work as a Consultant for a Company that makes Medical Equipment for larger patients and I help with R&D and Product Development. I also give Seminars on Patient Dignity for Medical Staff as well as giving training courses on Manual Handling - and I address Size Prejudice and Acceptance in all of these arenas.
> 
> ...


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## olwen (Mar 21, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> Fat Men have many of the same problems that Fat Women have with Doctors & Weight, booth seating, seat belts in cars (I do not need a extender in mine, I have the problem of my size making the belt resting right across my throat which I find unnerving).
> 
> ...



I do not believe that sharing your stories, how you feel about certain things is a waste of time. The mental health issue you raise is an important one and it happens to fat women too, so that is another thing we share. I wonder too if the psychologists at your center think WLS would solve all their patient's issues. Would they only take them seriously if they agreed to do that? Probably. I think many health care professionals do that to fat people no matter who they are. Hearing that that kind of thing happens to other fat people makes me feel like I'm not alone and that my own experiences are valid. For that alone sharing is worth something. Who cares what "fat acceptance" says about it if it touches individuals? Do we really need a go between to talk to each other? If the fat acceptance movement isn't representing you well, and you don't think doing something about that it worth the effort, then why even bother with it?


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## Carl1h (Mar 21, 2009)

olwen said:


> Hearing that that kind of thing happens to other fat people makes me feel like I'm not alone and that my own experiences are valid. For that alone sharing is worth something.



That's 90% of why I come to Dims, and when I read those experiences it makes no difference to me if the author is male or female. As I said the physical world doesn't treat me any differently because I am male. Moreover I think that the diversity of experiences is as broad within genders as it is between genders, after all BBW isn't a descriptor that makes all fat women agree with each other and speak with one voice, is it?

Stop focusing on gender. Don't assume that my experience being fat is much different from your own simply because I'm male. For example, it has been said that fat men do better in their careers than fat women. What does that mean to me? I'm a crossing guard, the main qualification for my job is not being a pedophile (no advantage to being male there). I don't get any sort of advancement preference, there is no advancement, it's just a really great job in it's own small way. There are loads of women here with better careers, so why assume that me or anyone else is too advantaged or too coddled to have experiences like yours based on gender. Social class, where we live, race, age and even how fat we are can just as readily be the cause of differences between us. I have yet to see a thread about the marginalization within the SA community of fat people who live in small towns away from the major population centers, but I bet a case for it could be made.


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## olwen (Mar 21, 2009)

Carl1h said:


> That's 90% of why I come to Dims, and when I read those experiences it makes no difference to me if the author is male or female. As I said the physical world doesn't treat me any differently because I am male. Moreover I think that the diversity of experiences is as broad within genders as it is between genders, after all BBW isn't a descriptor that makes all fat women agree with each other and speak with one voice, is it?
> 
> Stop focusing on gender. Don't assume that my experience being fat is much different from your own simply because I'm male. For example, it has been said that fat men do better in their careers than fat women. What does that mean to me? I'm a crossing guard, the main qualification for my job is not being a pedophile (no advantage to being male there). I don't get any sort of advancement preference, there is no advancement, it's just a really great job in it's own small way. There are loads of women here with better careers, so why assume that me or anyone else is too advantaged or too coddled to have experiences like yours based on gender. Social class, where we live, race, age and even how fat we are can just as readily be the cause of differences between us. I have yet to see a thread about the marginalization within the SA community of fat people who live in small towns away from the major population centers, but I bet a case for it could be made.



Again, I'm not the one bringing up marginalization of men in the movement. That makes it a gender issue. 

Body issues are gender specific when talking about gender expression as pertains to fat bodies. Gender studies is already it's own can of worms without fat playing into it and fat is hardly mentioned in gender studies anyway. Furthermore, I've already stated I think the larger gender issues exist outside of the realm of fatness.

I'm fully aware that as fat people we would have similar issues, but again, I'm not the one saying that fat men are treated differently so I want to know what those issues are _in addition_ to the obvious issues common to all fat people that can be easily guessed at. If this keeps getting brought up again and again, and again and again and again, I'm going to wonder about it and ask questions. 

I'm not the one you need to be telling this to because I'm not the one focusing on it. I've simply been asking for clarity.


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## BeaBea (Mar 21, 2009)

Carl1h said:


> Stop focusing on gender. Don't assume that my experience being fat is much different from your own simply because I'm male.



Carl, I understand what you are saying, and appreciate your input but I read the statement I have quoted above to be pretty much the opposite of what William has been saying. 

You've both shared things related to careers and to seatbelt issues which I completely understand and which are not gender specific - but its hard for me to know how to respond in future if you feel that we shouldn't focus on gender differences and William thinks we should. Obviously as individuals you have differing opinions but at the moment from the posts in this thread its hard to get a sense of consensus about the male experience of size acceptance. 

Tracey


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## William (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi Olwen

Some where in this thread you said .........Hearing that that kind of thing happens to other fat people makes me feel like I'm not alone and that my own experiences are valid. For that alone sharing is worth something..............

For me many people in Fat Acceptance tend to be more about ill validating my experiences by constantly dismissing them. There are people here on Dimension that I would block from my posts if I could because I know they are more into discrediting them instead of identifying with them.

The guy I am taking about also had a very large WLS scar (which impressed the hell out of the other guys in the rehab, sometimes we men are boys) and he had done things like a liquid diet, too bad the counselor could not understand that maybe it was not the weight but how people reacted to his weight which helped depressed the guy.

William 




olwen said:


> I do not believe that sharing your stories, how you feel about certain things is a waste of time. The mental health issue you raise is an important one and it happens to fat women too, so that is another thing we share. I wonder too if the psychologists at your center think WLS would solve all their patient's issues. Would they only take them seriously if they agreed to do that? Probably. I think many health care professionals do that to fat people no matter who they are. Hearing that that kind of thing happens to other fat people makes me feel like I'm not alone and that my own experiences are valid. For that alone sharing is worth something. Who cares what "fat acceptance" says about it if it touches individuals? Do we really need a go between to talk to each other? If the fat acceptance movement isn't representing you well, and you don't think doing something about that it worth the effort, then why even bother with it?


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## olwen (Mar 21, 2009)

BeaBea said:


> Carl, I understand what you are saying, and appreciate your input but I read the statement I have quoted above to be pretty much the opposite of what William has been saying.
> 
> You've both shared things related to careers and to seatbelt issues which I completely understand and which are not gender specific - but its hard for me to know how to respond in future if you feel that we shouldn't focus on gender differences and William thinks we should. Obviously as individuals you have differing opinions but at the moment from the posts in this thread its hard to get a sense of consensus about the male experience of size acceptance.
> 
> Tracey



Yes, I Agree.


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## Carl1h (Mar 21, 2009)

Carl1h said:


> Stop focusing on gender. Don't assume that my experience being fat is much different from your own simply because I'm male.





BeaBea said:


> Carl, I understand what you are saying, and appreciate your input but I read the statement I have quoted above to be pretty much the opposite of what William has been saying.



I disagree, I think William would very much like for fat men to be able to talk about their experiences without being dismissed because they are men and are therefore assumed to have it easier than women. In other words, to have gender removed from the discussion.

Further, I am not arguing to make William's points I am trying to make my own points, which include the idea the threads like this one do more harm than good. Part of the problem is the way people respond to William. When William is unapologetically insulted at the onset of the discussion and then dismissed as unreasonable after he has tried to make his point in post after post how do you think other fat men who might feel like they have something to say will feel? I think that they are saying to themselves, I'm not going to step in there and get worked on like that poor guy did.

I'm trying to get you to see that the way these discussions play out, the way that you help them play out, works against the goal you say you want, more participation by more fat men. Men aren't typically good at the verbal skill set and if they feel like they can't present themselves in a way that you will understand, they are not going to try. 

In a thread about BHMs everything negative said about any BHM is perceived to be said about all BHMs. The perception makes the effect a reality.



olwen said:


> Again, I'm not the one bringing up marginalization of men in the movement. That makes it a gender issue.



I'm not either, I've been saying that this sort of thread is a bad idea from the beginning. In fact, I haven't said one way or the other whether I think men are marginalized in the SA movement or not, because I think that the very conversation causes more harm than good.



olwen said:


> I've simply been asking for clarity.



You say that as if there can be no harm in it. Wasn't a similar position used to stifle women's voices? The idea that women were too hysterical, too flighty, too frivolous to put forth a cogent argument? The idea that an argument, a thought from a woman could not be understood by the more rational male mind? That they lacked clarity? Are you just being clever and turning that tactic around against men?

It seems to me that I have seen both you and BeaBea end your arguments with WIlliam by dismissing him as being unreasonable or lacking clarity or some other way of dismissing him as being a voice unworthy of being heard. Is that the impression you want to leave with any other fat men thinking of joining the discussion? That their voice isn't worth being heard because they lack the verbal skills to make a faultless case? Is that really just harmlessly asking for clarity?

There are a lot of people on this board with very sophisticated arguing skills, but is the demonstration of those skills, is the "winning" of an argument really the ultimate goal? If you discuss me into submission have you really achieved the victory you want? Because you say you want to hear the experiences of fat men, but that is done by listening, not by arguing or discussing them into silence. It's up to you all to decide which you really want, but for my part nothing has happened in this thread to change my mind about the usefulness of such threads.


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## olwen (Mar 21, 2009)

Carl1h said:


> I disagree, I think William would very much like for fat men to be able to talk about their experiences without being dismissed because they are men and are therefore assumed to have it easier than women. In other words, to have gender removed from the discussion.
> 
> Further, I am not arguing to make William's points I am trying to make my own points, which include the idea the threads like this one do more harm than good. Part of the problem is the way people respond to William. When William is unapologetically insulted at the onset of the discussion and then dismissed as unreasonable after he has tried to make his point in post after post how do you think other fat men who might feel like they have something to say will feel? I think that they are saying to themselves, I'm not going to step in there and get worked on like that poor guy did.
> 
> ...




I tell you I don't understand and then you somehow fault me for that and you fault me for asking you to make yourselves clear. How does that make sense?

This is a medium of words. If your words are not clear then you will not be understood. End of story. If we were talking face to face, I'm sure this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Expecting someone to have good communications skills isn't an unreasonable request. Give me a break. 

The next time this issue comes up - and you know it will - and someone else says they don't understand then who's fault is that? The onus is on you all to make yourselves clear. I cannot believe expecting grown men to have good communication skills is seen as too high of an expectation.

I give up on this entire conversation.


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## BeaBea (Mar 21, 2009)

Carl1h said:


> I've been saying that this sort of thread is a bad idea from the beginning. In fact, I haven't said one way or the other whether I think men are marginalized in the SA movement or not, because I think that the very conversation causes more harm than good.



So in summary, you want gender differences ignored and William wants them addressed. You think the discussion of the marginalisation of men in Size Acceptance is to be avoided at all costs and William brings it up every chance he gets. Neither Olwen nor I are completely clear on where you stand but neither of you will explain but think its fine to blame us both for our lack of understanding. 

I think I've got it now - Olwen! Wait for me, I'm coming too!
Tracey


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## William (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi 

Carl's is right that I would like Fat Men to find a Fat Acceptance without all the stereotypical statements that center on minimizing the experiences of Fat Men.

Despite what others have said all that I have protested about is those type of Statements about Fat Men.

William







Carl1h said:


> I disagree, I think William would very much like for fat men to be able to talk about their experiences without being dismissed because they are men and are therefore assumed to have it easier than women. In other words, to have gender removed from the discussion.
> 
> Further, I am not arguing to make William's points I am trying to make my own points, which include the idea the threads like this one do more harm than good. Part of the problem is the way people respond to William. When William is unapologetically insulted at the onset of the discussion and then dismissed as unreasonable after he has tried to make his point in post after post how do you think other fat men who might feel like they have something to say will feel? I think that they are saying to themselves, I'm not going to step in there and get worked on like that poor guy did.
> 
> ...


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## Carl1h (Mar 21, 2009)

BeaBea said:


> Neither Olwen nor I are completely clear on where you stand but neither of you will explain but think its fine to blame us both for our lack of understanding.



OK, I'm game. I'll try to explain this one more time. You have a process that you are trying to use to get information and results that you say you want. 

That process is not yielding the results and information you want, this judged by the frustration you express with William and the fact that so few others are willing to participate.

I tell you that your process needs to be changed.

You deny any fault in the process and you instead place the blame on the subjects, represented here by myself and William.

But you cannot change the subjects, we are outside your realm of control. You control your own process and that's all. So, if you two want to achieve your stated goals you need to work on changing what you *can* change, your process. If it's hard, if it requires reading more closely what people have written and working harder to understand it then you can either do the work or quit, that's up to you, not me. If you care so little about your stated goals that you won't even rethink your process because your egos get in the way, or because it's too much work, then why should I put any work or effort into it. After all I've already said that I think these threads do more harm than good and discouraging the two of you and shutting the thread down works towards my stated desire to not have this thread.

If you were trying to understand an ant colony would you blame the ants for not explaining themselves?


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## FreeThinker (Mar 22, 2009)

Why the battle?

Those asking for answers in this thread seem to want answers...nothing more.

I've seen a few (A FEW) points made that address the issue of marginalization. For the most part, I am seeing a re-statement that people other than Fat Men are telling the fat man's story, yet I don't see that story being told by those who truly have ownership of it.

We see a tiny insight, and learn something. That part's good, as far as it goes.

Then, when we ask again in what ways BHMs are not being treated fairly, or in what ways their side is not being told, we are shut down with answers that basically say BHMs are not being treated fairly, and that their side is not being told.

_TELL_ YOUR STORY.

Don't give any thought to offending the rest of us.

The greatest offense we can be dealt is being told that we can't handle what you've got to say.

William, I think I've finally come to realise that the reason you don't want to get into this is that you don't want to offend people...well, forget about that!

Having your side of things told fairly is more important than offending those who would deny you having your fair say, and it's something only _you_ can do.

If you truly believe that misinformation is being spread, you are only empowering those spreading it when you pass up the opportunity to set the record straight.


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## butch (Mar 23, 2009)

I have a question: if threads like this are not the way to address the lack of, what, 'equality,' 'fairness,' 'accuracy,' when it comes to fat men in SA, then where should those of us who want to see fat men more active, and accurately represented, in SA expected to go to find the types of threads, blogs, etc. that do address this in a way that is 'fat man approved'?

I don't see SA addressed directly very often in the BHM/FFA board, and since I don't have time to read every thread on every board here (except for the GLBTQ board, being the mod and all), I can't be expected to trip over subtle and tangential discussions of SA when they do pop up in the BHM/FFA board.

Or is the answer for me to read every thread in the BHM/FFA board and tease out the stuff that is directly related to 'the movement,' and is not instead more sexually oriented or more personal development related? Or is the problem that it seems sometimes that the men who post at the BHM/FFA board seem more interested in their own life as fat men and not the plight of all fat people?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but how often do the experiences of all fat people, and not just fat men, get brought up in the BHM/FFA forum? Unless it is a debate about whether fat men and fat women find each other attractive, I don't see fat men talking often about the experiences of all fat people, male and female, and I don't see many of them venturing out of the BHM/FFA board to talk about commonalities or differences, either. I applaud you Carl and Willaim for being able to see commonalities and differences, to discuss this in other spaces besides the BHM/FFA board, and to speak so eloquently about your lives as fat people. I just wish more of your peers would do so, too. That alone might address a lot of the problems you both point out.


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## William (Mar 23, 2009)

This I believe about Fat Acceptance

It is right to speak of Fat Acceptance as one entity, just add what all the people say in Fat Acceptance Areas & Organizations and you have loose idea of what Fat Acceptance stands for.

There are two parts to Fat Acceptance the Activist part and the support/empowerment part which can be allied with Fat Admiration.

The support/empowerment part of Fat Acceptance has been for most of its existence primarily concerned with empowering Fat Women, so the slogans, terminology and ideology were customized to help Fat Women.

When you extend Fat Acceptance to cover Fat Men what is there to offer empowerment to Fat Men in the chants and slogans of Fat Acceptance?

Do we really believe that Societys concept of Feminine softness extends to Obesity? Do you think that the thick necks, wrists, broad shoulders and broad backs of fat people are considered masculine by Society?

On a side note being in charge of 12 plus men most of the time when they are out in public, that big boobs are feminine on any woman, but a Fat Woman needs to have some very large breasts to turn heads in the facility Van. The same can be said for a big butt. The proportions are similar to breast hip ratio of smaller women.

I do not think that Fat Acceptance can use the same gauge of gender attractiveness as the Society that condemns Fat People has ugly, smelly or worse as measure in Fat Acceptance. It may work when you are only empowering one gender, but not both.

I hope to have a more cognitive version of this later, but I just wanted to answer Free Thinkers post.

I know Marilyn Wann has spoke of this on her own Forum, but I dont know if she wrote anything down formally.

William






FreeThinker said:


> Why the battle?
> 
> Those asking for answers in this thread seem to want answers...nothing more.
> 
> ...


----------



## William (Mar 23, 2009)

Hi

I do most of my Fat/Size Acceptance talk on the main board and use the BHM/FFA board for fashion, empowerment and fun. The BHM/FFA board was created because of conflicts that came up when Fat Admiration of Fat Men started to appear (photos and descriptions).

For a long time when anything that was an admiration of Fat Men was posted on the Main Board they were quickly told to take it to the BHM/FFA board.

I also think that the main Board is the best place to talk about issues that pertain to both genders.

William





butch said:


> I have a question: if threads like this are not the way to address the lack of, what, 'equality,' 'fairness,' 'accuracy,' when it comes to fat men in SA, then where should those of us who want to see fat men more active, and accurately represented, in SA expected to go to find the types of threads, blogs, etc. that do address this in a way that is 'fat man approved'?
> 
> I don't see SA addressed directly very often in the BHM/FFA board, and since I don't have time to read every thread on every board here (except for the GLBTQ board, being the mod and all), I can't be expected to trip over subtle and tangential discussions of SA when they do pop up in the BHM/FFA board.
> 
> ...


----------



## stan_der_man (Mar 24, 2009)

This may sound like a bunch of esoteric BS... but I think the problem with this discussion is that the scope is just so broad that we aren't even capturing the essence of the topic. Again, not being a BHM myself, I can't really comment on the BHM experience relating to this subject, but I would at least like to try to identify the "male experience" aspect of this... I have attempted to explain my feelings on this subject in past discussions, only to abandon what I was going to post because the things that I wrote took off on so many tangents that it became nonsensical.

This is a gender issue and it's not a gender issue (or at least as a male, I wish it wasn't a gender issue...) It's like a male friend of mine who went to "Mommy And Me" classes. He was the only male in the class, the women all basically huddled in the opposite corner from him and he sat all alone. Eventually the women warmed up to him but it was awkward at best. The way the women reacted to him is understandable in ways, but regardless, their reaction to him made it a very awkward experience for him. Imagine a parent with their baby, doing daily tasks whatever it may be. It is a different experience for the males and females, but yet it is the same in many ways. The differences are slight but the male sees and experiences things in one way and the female sees and experiences things in another way. Just as males and females see and experience things differently in SA / Fat Acceptance. It's all about nuance, the details are many and the differences are slight. Complaining about something seems trivial... it appears to be whining from the other person's perspective but as real as Chinese water torture from the person expressing the perspective.

I just can't pinpoint the essence of what I'm trying to say here but I think this metaphor comes close...

I was listening to music in my truck the other day. This subject sort of reminds me of the '80s pop singer Billy Idol... He can sing, he has the chops, he can dance, he's got the lip, but he's not Elvis. He does have talent but there is something wrong with him, or at least something that I perceive to be wrong... something wrong with what he does, or with how I feel about him, or with the people around him. Not terribly wrong, but just wrong enough that he gets really annoying after a while. He has those power punches but dare I say there's something wussy about him. It's hard to quantify, explaining the nuance is difficult because it involves external factors and perception, and not all people's perception is the same. Billy Idol is like this subject and his song "White Wedding" is like the discussion of this subject... "White Wedding" brings up some very valid issues worthy of discussion but somehow singing about your sister's virginity is just so very un-cool.

Maybe I'm totally off base here, but this is just the feeling I get about this whole discussion of why BHMs (or men in general) are "marginalized". It's the culmination of lots of trivial (and some non trivial...) things that build up into a fit of frustration in my opinion. For example... I am constantly told, "Stan, you are one of the good guys"... I am very flattered by this but the insinuation is that I'm a gem in a field of dirt, which can be very demoralizing in a way. It's like being being the noble one in a desert of "one square man per square mile". Where does that leave me in relation to other men? What place do I hold as a man amongst women? Is there anything I can do to improve this situation? Does it really matter because I'm out in the middle of this empty desert anyway? I know this might not make sense, but this is the best way I can think of possibly why this subject always just seems to go into circles, and usually degenerates into seemingly directionless whining, and in turn manifests into frustration from those not understanding where this "whining and frustration" comes from.


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## Tad (Mar 24, 2009)

Stan;

I've been avoiding this thread, but seeing that you'd posted I had to come and read your post. I'm really glad that I did. I think you've come close to pinning this mass of jello to the wall than any other attempts that I've seen. It really is a sort of amorphous, shiftable, topic, making it really hard to come to grips with.

And the Billy Idol simile is just brilliant  

I only want to respond to one small part of that whole post. For me, hearing "You are one of the good guys" gives me a hint of what people probably feel when they hear someone trashing fat people, but adding "I don't mean you, of course."


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## William (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi Stan

You are a little off base. 

1. Fat is a Gender Issue, It just officially never been a Man's issue according to many Feminists and Fat Acceptance. 
2. Fat Acceptance picked up on some of the mainstream gender ideals that would empower Fat Women even though most of the mainstream gender ideals rejected Fat People of either gender.
3. When Fat Men started to enter Fat Acceptance not much was done to create empowerment for them and Fat Acceptance has always been very weak in supporting Fat Male need for Fat Acceptance.

That is why I often link to the Fat Underground writings from back in the 70s, Fat Acceptance defiantly got derailed from that brand of Fat Acceptance that was inclusive of *Fat People*.

The big question is if Fat Acceptance can remain custom designed to to empower Fat Woman and at the same time empower Fat People of all gender configurations?

William





fa_man_stan said:


> This may sound like a bunch of esoteric BS... but I think the problem with this discussion is that the scope is just so broad that we aren't even capturing the essence of the topic. Again, not being a BHM myself, I can't really comment on the BHM experience relating to this subject, but I would at least like to try to identify the "male experience" aspect of this... I have attempted to explain my feelings on this subject in past discussions, only to abandon what I was going to post because the things that I wrote took off on so many tangents that it became nonsensical.
> 
> This is a gender issue and it's not a gender issue (or at least as a male, I wish it wasn't a gender issue...) It's like a male friend of mine who went to "Mommy And Me" classes. He was the only male in the class, the women all basically huddled in the opposite corner from him and he sat all alone. Eventually the women warmed up to him but it was awkward at best. The way the women reacted to him is understandable in ways, but regardless, their reaction to him made it a very awkward experience for him. Imagine a parent with their baby, doing daily tasks whatever it may be. It is a different experience for the males and females, but yet it is the same in many ways. The differences are slight but the male sees and experiences things in one way and the female sees and experiences things in another way. Just as males and females see and experience things differently in SA / Fat Acceptance. It's all about nuance, the details are many and the differences are slight. Complaining about something seems trivial... it appears to be whining from the other person's perspective but as real as Chinese water torture from the person expressing the perspective.
> 
> ...


----------



## stan_der_man (Mar 24, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Stan
> 
> You are a little off base.
> 
> ...



I'll admit that I'm not very well versed in exactly what the "feminist" element of Fat Acceptance holds in regards as a woman's place or a man's place in fat acceptance. From what you now write and have written in the past, I take it that you disagree with this assertion that "fat is a feminist issue". If I understand you correctly William we are completely in agreement regarding this, I think Fat Acceptance is equally a cause for both men and women. I wouldn't take too seriously what certain groups may regard as their exclusive place in Fat Acceptance, everybody has differing opinions on things William, the views of this "feminist element" (for the lack of a better term...) is hardly the core mantra of Fat Acceptance by any means although this group may think it is. At least not from what I've seen, although I'll admit my experiences of Fat Acceptance organizations are limited to Southern Calif. If the BHMs feel they are being left out and not given a voice in Fat Acceptance, they need to speak out as the female element of Fat Acceptance has. I know that is easier said than done, but as was mentioned earlier, there are noteworthy examples of BHMs leading NAAFA for example (I think AnnMarie mentioned that early in this thread...) and I personally knew of Charles Van Dyke (spelling?) who lead NAAFA back in the '90s if I remember correctly.

It all boils down to this... If the BHMs want a voice in Fat Acceptance they must raise that voice. I know it is easier said than done William, trust me I've been there myself. I've been advocating the same thing with male FAs for years now. Personally, I know that my failings in this quest are that I don't know how to organize people. I'm better at formulating ideas (aka... shooting off my mouth about things...) than actually going out and starting a website or some other type of organization.

One thing I learned recently about the early days of the FA SIG was that it was difficult keeping the guys together as a group, because men don't seem to bond as easily as women do. I was told by one of the men involved in the FA SIG was that the members basically just dwindled away because the guys simply ran out of things to discuss. How much does a guy want to sit around and talk about their love of BBWs? They may very well have plenty of love for them, but guys simply just don't talk about things as much as women do (I know the potential trouble that statement can get me in...  ) How much would BHMs want to sit around and talk about their issues? Would such a group last that long? Truly, it is difficult to get men together unless there is some immediate task involved, and even if there is some great common task beckoning that the guys can get united over, they will more than likely disband after that task is completed. That is just the nature of men and how we are. From what I see, and correct me if I'm wrong William... It seems to me that the root causes of this "marginalization" of BHMs or men in general which we are discussing, seem to have this same root factor involved. Do you see any truth to this?


----------



## William (Mar 25, 2009)

Hi Stan

You are a nice guy!!

I do agree that Fat is a Feminist Issue, but it is also Mens issue, it is a old persons issue and Childrens issue. I do view the statement of Fat is a Feminist Issue as a statement of exclusion instead of inclusion.

I have no idea how writers like Susie Orbach who is not a Fat Man and not even a Fat Woman felt that she had the right or knowledge to downgrade the Fat Male experience in her books, the same can be said of many of her peer writers of the time.

Basically when you brush your teeth in the morning if you do not see a Fat Male in the mirror than you do not know what Fat Men experience, it is simple.

The number of Fat Men active in Fat Acceptance should have no bearing on what is being said about or for them. I have never complained about a lack of Fat Male input and view a lack of information as being better than input from anyone who is not a Fat Guy. I am not counting people who are reporting information from Fat Men. I think that not building up a false history about Fat Men is the ethical way for Fat Acceptance to proceed. 

Recruiting Fat Men is a whole new topic 


William 





fa_man_stan said:


> I'll admit that I'm not very well versed in exactly what the "feminist" element of Fat Acceptance holds in regards as a woman's place or a man's place in fat acceptance. From what you now write and have written in the past, I take it that you disagree with this assertion that "fat is a feminist issue". If I understand you correctly William we are completely in agreement regarding this, I think Fat Acceptance is equally a cause for both men and women. I wouldn't take too seriously what certain groups may regard as their exclusive place in Fat Acceptance, everybody has differing opinions on things William, the views of this "feminist element" (for the lack of a better term...) is hardly the core mantra of Fat Acceptance by any means although this group may think it is. At least not from what I've seen, although I'll admit my experiences of Fat Acceptance organizations are limited to Southern Calif. If the BHMs feel they are being left out and not given a voice in Fat Acceptance, they need to speak out as the female element of Fat Acceptance has. I know that is easier said than done, but as was mentioned earlier, there are noteworthy examples of BHMs leading NAAFA for example (I think AnnMarie mentioned that early in this thread...) and I personally knew of Charles Van Dyke (spelling?) who lead NAAFA back in the '90s if I remember correctly.
> 
> It all boils down to this... If the BHMs want a voice in Fat Acceptance they must raise that voice. I know it is easier said than done William, trust me I've been there myself. I've been advocating the same thing with male FAs for years now. Personally, I know that my failings in this quest are that I don't know how to organize people. I'm better at formulating ideas (aka... shooting off my mouth about things...) than actually going out and starting a website or some other type of organization.
> 
> One thing I learned recently about the early days of the FA SIG was that it was difficult keeping the guys together as a group, because men don't seem to bond as easily as women do. I was told by one of the men involved in the FA SIG was that the members basically just dwindled away because the guys simply ran out of things to discuss. How much does a guy want to sit around and talk about their love of BBWs? They may very well have plenty of love for them, but guys simply just don't talk about things as much as women do (I know the potential trouble that statement can get me in...  ) How much would BHMs want to sit around and talk about their issues? Would such a group last that long? Truly, it is difficult to get men together unless there is some immediate task involved, and even if there is some great common task beckoning that the guys can get united over, they will more than likely disband after that task is completed. That is just the nature of men and how we are. From what I see, and correct me if I'm wrong William... It seems to me that the root causes of this "marginalization" of BHMs or men in general which we are discussing, seem to have this same root factor involved. Do you see any truth to this?


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## William (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi 

Kim Chernin is another skinny feminist writer who felt entitled to say anything she thought about Fat Men as a truth, as long as it promoted her agenda. I have seen some of her writings cited in Fat Accpetance over the years.

_By now it must be evident that the fat man has been spared this burden of negative symbolic meaning [attached to fatness] only because the fat woman has taken it on. One of the great advantages to men, in a culture they dominate, is the ability to assign to those they oppress whatever it is they wish to disown or ignore in their own condition. It is because the fat man believes the imagery his own culture has created that he can gorge himself with impunity and strut about the pool with his bulging belly, while the fat women are all wearing blouses in the water. Because his wife has agreed to carry the general shame our entire culture feels about the body, he can proudly walk up to the younger women who are absorbed in one anothers company; and now he insists upon opening conversation with them, his belly neatly held between his proud hands, as if it too were an estimable possession. (Chernin, 1981: 124)_

Any fat man alive in 1981 would want to know what she was smoking. I want to know how could Fat Acceptance ever drink the Koolaid she was serving. 


I am sad that her name is still associated so much with NAAFA online

William


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## kayrae (Mar 26, 2009)

William, in light of your newest citation about marginalization of fat men in the size acceptance movement, I guess here is where you and I differ: Size acceptance to me is such a new concept that I'm not tied to whatever's been said and written about in the past. Most of the size activism that I've learned about has been culled from Dimensions, Fatshionista, Feministing, and Bitch Magazine. The last three largely focuses on feminist issues because they are made up of women.

I haven't really felt like continuing this conversation when both BeaBea and Olwen were pretty much told to to shut up. I'm glad that we were able to get this far in conversation. Hopefully, this thread continues to live.


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## stan_der_man (Mar 26, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Stan
> 
> You are a nice guy!!
> 
> ...




Kudos to you also William! :bow: Differing as opinions may be here on this thread and elsewhere, the most important thing is that dialog is taking place and that this thread and future threads give us an opportunity to learn from each other.



William said:


> Hi
> 
> Kim Chernin is another skinny feminist writer who felt entitled to say anything she thought about Fat Men as a truth, as long as it promoted her agenda. I have seen some of her writings cited in Fat Accpetance over the years.
> 
> ...



Again William, I wouldn't overly focus on the writings / beliefs / opinions of certain schools of thought. These may be the prevailing mantras to many, but certainly not everyone. I think you are right that these individuals tend to cater to a certain audience at worse or perhaps they are simply exploring an interpretation of Fat Acceptance and just appear to be the dominant schools of thought in the absence of anything else. That is where I think part of this problem rests (the problem of marginalization) in the fact that there is an absence of varying interpretations of what Fat Acceptance could be... what it should be. There needs to be that voice William... a voice for BHMs, a voice for FAs... Threads like this are a beginning.




kayrae said:


> William, in light of your newest citation about marginalization of fat men in the size acceptance movement, I guess here is where you and I differ: Size acceptance to me is such a new concept that I'm not tied to whatever's been said and written about in the past. Most of the size activism that I've learned about has been culled from Dimensions, Fatshionista, Feministing, and Bitch Magazine. The last three largely focuses on feminist issues because they are made up of women.
> 
> I haven't really felt like continuing this conversation when both BeaBea and Olwen were pretty much told to to shut up. I'm glad that we were able to get this far in conversation. Hopefully, this thread continues to live.



I don't know if you noticed this Kayrae... What may have taken place within this thread - perhaps only discernable to those of the testosteronic based varient of our human species - was a brief occurrence of male bonding... Albeit this event of male bonding was of protozoic proportions, but I do believe it did take place. If you and the other ladies leave this thread with nothing else, at least rest assured of the possibility that there may in fact be life on Mars.... and it may not be much different than that which is on Venus...


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## William (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi Kayrae

In Communities of people the foundations of thought and beliefs are hard to erase, it has gotten better for Fat Men but those old ideas linger on because they have been said over and over thru the years.

I never told anyone to shut up, I did ask Bea Bea to lay off the sarcasm and snarky relies. 

Those writers (Orbach and Chernin) had a cast of similar female writers who primarily exploited the fact that Fat Women and all Woman are easier targets than men. They had zero empathy for Fat Men and help build Fat Acceptance Ideology from the 70s to today.

I am still puzzled how Fat Acceptance accepted one or two of Society's quasi-positive body aesthetics toward fat then reject all the other negative ones toward Fat. Then as Fat Men appear in Fat Acceptance this very customized Fat Acceptance aesthetics is used for both Genders.

I am all for empowerment, but empowerment is a two way street 

William







kayrae said:


> William, in light of your newest citation about marginalization of fat men in the size acceptance movement, I guess here is where you and I differ: Size acceptance to me is such a new concept that I'm not tied to whatever's been said and written about in the past. Most of the size activism that I've learned about has been culled from Dimensions, Fatshionista, Feministing, and Bitch Magazine. The last three largely focuses on feminist issues because they are made up of women.
> 
> I haven't really felt like continuing this conversation when both BeaBea and Olwen were pretty much told to to shut up. I'm glad that we were able to get this far in conversation. Hopefully, this thread continues to live.


----------



## William (Mar 27, 2009)

Hi 

I should have just said that after the early years of Fat Acceptance that Fat Acceptance moved more toward the empowerment of Fat Women, hence for a long time the use of the term Fat People was far less used in Fat Acceptance or focused on. 

Today there are all kinds of Fat People knocking on Fat Acceptance's door to find the same old ideology and slogans.

I hope that the way that I posed this question this time merits a answer.


William






William said:


> Hi Kayrae
> 
> In Communities of people the foundations of thought and beliefs are hard to erase, it has gotten better for Fat Men but those old ideas linger on because they have been said over and over thru the years.
> 
> ...


----------



## William (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi 

Here is another example of the traditional Feminist Stereotype of the lives of Fat Males. This was posted this month by college age women with the customary quote from one of the thin female feminist writers who feels it is her entitlement to be able to say anything about Fat Men. 

If things remain business as usual things will never change.

Building Body-Positive Consciousness
http://sdswomynscaucus.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/building-body-positive-consciousness/

William


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## BeaBea (Mar 29, 2009)

William said:


> Here is another example of the traditional Feminist Stereotype of the lives of Fat Males...
> 
> If things remain business as usual things will never change.



William,
can I ask why you haven't posted a comment on the site? If you are committed to achieving a change it seems you have been given a golden opportunity. Things only change if people change them.
Tracey


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## William (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

I did leave a message on another site which was truly about Fat Acceptance. This site is mainly a Feminist Website and this topic just one of many and outside of marginalizing Fat Men, I do not know how Fat Accepting they are.

Also I post for the BHMs and all the freethinking members of the Fat Acceptance community. I have no time for this Feminist site, but I could create a canned message for places like that.

Once a week I do a Google search on "fat acceptance" and "fat men" to see what is in the news and blogs. It is disheartening to see that even today that marginalizing the experiences of Fat Men is all most people in Fat Acceptance want or need to comment about on the topic of Fat Men.

William




BeaBea said:


> William,
> can I ask why you haven't posted a comment on the site? If you are committed to achieving a change it seems you have been given a golden opportunity. Things only change if people change them.
> Tracey


----------



## BeaBea (Mar 30, 2009)

William said:


> Once a week I do a Google search on "fat acceptance" and "fat men" to see what is in the news and blogs. It is disheartening to see that even today that marginalizing the experiences of Fat Men is all most people in Fat Acceptance want or need to comment about on the topic of Fat Men.



I can see that doing the search is a good idea - but unless you respond each time, and engage the writer in a debate to challenge their views then nothing will change. Whatever you think of the feminist site if you disagree with views posted then you should respond - but I still see nothing there from you. 

Tracey


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## William (Mar 30, 2009)

Hi Bea Bea

I do see my post there;

http://sdswomynscaucus.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/building-body-positive-consciousness/

what is hard is to get people to respond to the lopsided ideology (catering to heterosexual Fat Women) in Fat/Size Acceptance. As a concept Fat Acceptance has not been around that long and its Foundations should not be built of stone yet. Mentioning these issues should not always create such heated arguments.

William




BeaBea said:


> I can see that doing the search is a good idea - but unless you respond each time, and engage the writer in a debate to challenge their views then nothing will change. Whatever you think of the feminist site if you disagree with views posted then you should respond - but I still see nothing there from you.
> 
> Tracey


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## howitzerbelly (Mar 31, 2009)

Who are you??? I reflect on being fat or skinny.. Does it matter.. who am I ?? I am now me.. and thats that.. The mind play's games!! People who think they know something.. Know nothing!!! So I say be comfortable with not knowing who you are!! Marginalization is what the ego does.. Let those who Marginalize set there own limits.. We all are perfect already no matter what we do.. I don't know anything at all!!! I can just be here as a witness to life as it unfolds.


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## Victim (Mar 31, 2009)

howitzerbelly said:


> Who are you??? I reflect on being fat or skinny.. Does it matter.. who am I ?? I am now me.. and thats that.. The mind play's games!! People who think they know something.. Know nothing!!! So I say be comfortable with not knowing who you are!! Marginalization is what the ego does.. *Let those who Marginalize set their own limits.. *We all are perfect already no matter what we do.. I don't know anything at all!!! I can just be here as a witness to life as it unfolds.



You pretty much said it right there. I'm sure people on here are getting as sick of me saying not to just sit there feeling marginalized and DO something as they are of people whining about being marginalized. This life is about what we make of it.


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## William (Mar 31, 2009)

Hi Victim

You left out the people who have declared that everything is fine, no problem, it works for me, so everything is perfect and etc.........................

I am also sick of their whining 

This by far is the most vocal group and who has increased the size of this thread so much.

I would love to hear some of your ideas of what else we can do.

William




Victim said:


> You pretty much said it right there. I'm sure people on here are getting as sick of me saying not to just sit there feeling marginalized and DO something as they are of people whining about being marginalized. This life is about what we make of it.


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## tonynyc (Mar 31, 2009)

I like this thread and it's good that more folks are coming out to make their point. The growing participation can only make for better dialogue. I have to admit- it is frustrating to discover few articles which touched on the BHM experience. 

The following is an excerpt from an interesting blog on the subject of Size Acceptance 

_*"Also, over the years I've seen a certain amount of reappraisal for heavier and curvier women. This is given certain weight with the use of particular phrases such as 'more womanly'. Think of this when applied to men. Would a heavier or chubbier man be described as more manly? No, of course not. Think of terms like 'Rubenesque'; the curves of a woman equated with fine art. Is there an equivalent for men? No, of course not. I really can't think of a term used to describe heavier, chunkier or fatter men in a positive light."*_

I can't remember the source of the blog;but, it had me thinking.... You cannot describe a BHM as Rubenesque ;but, the only words that come to mind for BHM are "Burly" or 'Hulking" does not conjure images of fine art. Perhaps some can come up with other words-but, I could not think of any at the moment.

=========================================================

*Below is an interesting exchange between a Blogger More of Me to Love and Author Wendy Shanker. 
I posted the specific question in the blog as it relates to Fat Men*....

*Author of The Fat Girls Guide to Life, Wendy Shanker, Gives More of Me to Love Some Fab Advice
by More of Me to Love
March 23 2009 *

*MTL:* I know you wrote The Fat Girls Guide to Life but Im wondering what you think about life for fat men. How do you think the experiences of fat men are different from those of fat women? How does the advice you offered in your book apply to fat men?

*WS:* Many people asked me if I was going to write a sequel called The Fat Mans Guide to Life. I said, If I was a fat man, I certainly would! Whats been really surprising about the response to the book is that you dont have to be fat or a girl to relate to it. Lots of thin women told me that they felt the same way I did  which was a wake-up call for me. Men who are concerned about their looks are getting inundated the same way women have been for a long time. Also, men who read this book told me that it helped them relate to the women in their lives and to understand how their perfectly beautiful wives/girlfriends/moms/sisters/friends could be in a position where they couldnt see their own beauty and worth.

Source:
More of Me to Love


*Some additional studies*

Susan Himes & J.Kevin Thomson: Fat Stigimitzation in TV Shows & Movies: A Content Analysis- Obesity (2007)


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## William (Mar 31, 2009)

Hi Tony

My point is that Society would not call a very fat woman Rubenesque, they would call her Fat!! (and most likely some other choice words)

So in the Fat/Size Acceptance universe why stop redefining Society's terms beyond those geared toward Fat Women? What about Fat Men, Fat Trans-Men, Fat Butch Women, Fat Masculine Women, Fat Feminine Men and any other Fat Person?

Past the era when Fat Acceptance spoke of Fat People, Fat Acceptance became a message for a very narrow audience.

William 




tonynyc said:


> I like this thread and it's good that more folks are coming out to make their point. The growing participation can only make for better dialogue. I have to admit- it is frustrating to discover few articles which touched on the BHM experience.
> 
> The following is an excerpt from an interesting blog on the subject of Size Acceptance
> 
> ...


----------



## butch (Apr 1, 2009)

I think that a term from feminism might come in handy here: intersectionality. In response to the way that feminism seemed to present one unified vision of 'woman' that usually wasn't so inclusive, and instead reduced the concept of 'woman' to middle class, white, straight, etc, other feminist thinkers urged the use of intersectionality to make sure the voices and experiences of all women were accurately represented in feminism. 

So, it seems we're at that crossroads now. Fat Acceptance too often does reduce fat to the female experience, and we need to be mindful of the intersectionality of gender, sexuality, race, class, etc. when we speak of fat people. However, that means we can never refer back to some monolithic concept of 'fat acceptance' for all people. Fat Acceptance needs to be tailored to the specific needs of all kinds of fat people.

How we get there, I don't know. There is an inherent tension that if any social justice movement gets broken up into different divisions that the core argument can be lost, and it can be hard to marshall the troops under a unified cause. However, if the core of the movement adheres to a narrow focus, it misses alienating the very people it wants to speak for. 

My only suggestion? In our own thoughts and words about FA/SA, try and think about how someone else would experience/view the same thing, and try and convey that understanding of diversity in relating to FA/SA. I'd also suggest being responsive to criticism, as long as that criticism is in service of true change, and not criticism for the sake of criticism. Just like we hope to change the minds of people through our FA/SA acitivism, so too do we need to have our own minds changed about how the fat experince is as multiple as the number of fat people on the planet.


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## mergirl (Apr 1, 2009)

I actually try, although at times it can seem clumsy to say 'fat people' instead of bbw even when i am generally talking about my attractions and desires. Do you think that perhaps in some cases BHM's can feel marginalised because most Fa's are assumed to be men? Im not meaning to sound like 'fat people only exist when in relation to Fa's' Cause thats just rediculous but from what i have read, much of the fat acceptance movement was developed by Fat people, yes.. but the Fa's were mainly male. 
I feel like i'm missing something a bit though.. I dont really understand in what ways BHM's are marginalised. I didnt get william, that you felt the body positive page was 'marginalisation' of BHM's because i saw it as a support sight for size acceptance for women. Maby you could set up a site like that for guys. Women and men will have different issues when it comes to body/size/shape/weight so i dont think it is unthinkable for each to have their own 'spaces' to discuss these issues. To be honest I dont think people can be marginalised unless they let themselves be. I am gay, i felt that dimensions was slightly hetrocentric so asked around everyone to see what they thought of a lgbt board and after we all talked to conrad about it, we now have one. I refuse to feel marginalised. On the main boards if someone keeps refering to bbws and male fa's i will try to remind them (when i can be bothered) that there are gay fa's and female BHM admiring ones too. Sometimes it really is just as simple as people being used to a particular was of saying or seeing things and there really is no intent to marginalise. 
Maby 'some' Bhm's feel marginalised because there are more sites, discussion groups etc made by and used by BBW's. I think this is a good thing and you could learn from it, instead of getting jealous by it. Make your voice heard in mixed groups, correct people when they talk only of bbw's in reference to size acceptance, make your own bhm groups if thats what you want too.. I'm sure no-one will mind.. Sorry. if you want change, your going to have to use action now, not just words!


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## William (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi Mergirl

I think that so much of Fat Acceptance *only* focuses on what BHM do not experience is what bothers me. I never said that I felt marginalized, but I still do not like the history Fat Men being established by second and third party sources. Eve today in Fat Accept I see lengthy Blog articles who's Authors feel justified in inserting just a short sentence on what they feel Fat Men do not experience. That kind of apathy is what turns me off from Fat Acceptance. I truly think that apathy is worse than hate.

I think that there was a lot of insight in Butch's post, I am sorry that the system would not let me Rep her.

William





mergirl said:


> I actually try, although at times it can seem clumsy to say 'fat people' instead of bbw even when i am generally talking about my attractions and desires. Do you think that perhaps in some cases BHM's can feel marginalised because most Fa's are assumed to be men? Im not meaning to sound like 'fat people only exist when in relation to Fa's' Cause thats just rediculous but from what i have read, much of the fat acceptance movement was developed by Fat people, yes.. but the Fa's were mainly male.
> I feel like i'm missing something a bit though.. I dont really understand in what ways BHM's are marginalised. I didnt get william, that you felt the body positive page was 'marginalisation' of BHM's because i saw it as a support sight for size acceptance for women. Maby you could set up a site like that for guys. Women and men will have different issues when it comes to body/size/shape/weight so i dont think it is unthinkable for each to have their own 'spaces' to discuss these issues. To be honest I dont think people can be marginalised unless they let themselves be. I am gay, i felt that dimensions was slightly hetrocentric so asked around everyone to see what they thought of a lgbt board and after we all talked to conrad about it, we now have one. I refuse to feel marginalised. On the main boards if someone keeps refering to bbws and male fa's i will try to remind them (when i can be bothered) that there are gay fa's and female BHM admiring ones too. Sometimes it really is just as simple as people being used to a particular was of saying or seeing things and there really is no intent to marginalise.
> Maby 'some' Bhm's feel marginalised because there are more sites, discussion groups etc made by and used by BBW's. I think this is a good thing and you could learn from it, instead of getting jealous by it. Make your voice heard in mixed groups, correct people when they talk only of bbw's in reference to size acceptance, make your own bhm groups if thats what you want too.. I'm sure no-one will mind.. Sorry. if you want change, your going to have to use action now, not just words!


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## mergirl (Apr 2, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Mergirl
> 
> I think that so much of Fat Acceptance *only* focuses on what BHM do not experience is what bothers me. I never said that I felt marginalized, but I still do not like the history Fat Men being established by second and third party sources. Eve today in Fat Accept I see lengthy Blog articles who's Authors feel justified in inserting just a short sentence on what they feel Fat Men do not experience. That kind of apathy is what turns me off from Fat Acceptance. I truly think that apathy is worse than hate.
> 
> ...


What things that BHM's do not experience does fat acceptance focus on?
I cant think of any examples.
Thanks.


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## William (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi Mergirl

Except for Fat Male Areas just about everything published or posted on the internet in Fat Acceptance about Fat Men is focused on how little fat bias Fat Men receive. Most often a one sentence blurb that is suppose to encapsulate the entire Fat Male experience.

This problem has nothing to do with the amount of Fat Men participating in Fat Acceptance. When a person makes a stance about a group of people, it is not unreasonable to expect a explaination. I know people here have demanded more than one sentence out of me on this subject.

A good example is that a BBW or FA will state that the weight level where Fat Bias starts for men is higher for men than women. As a Fat Man I say that fact has zero or less than zero relevance to what my experience has been. Yet time after time a debater will reply as if that is a meaningful fact. 

As a Fat Black Male I get less confrontation than a Fat Woman of any color would on the street, but does that equal more acceptance? I have never had a person approach me on the street and congratulate me on being fat. I have never heard anyone say "If only those Fat Women could look more like Fat Men they would be more acceptable"

Everything that I have said about Fat Men applies to all the other Fat People who have not been truly included in the BBW/FA ideology that got ingrained in Fat Acceptance in the middle years (late seventies into the nineties?????).

William





mergirl said:


> What things that BHM's do not experience does fat acceptance focus on?
> I cant think of any examples.
> Thanks.


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## mergirl (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for your reply william. I need to try to digest it for a while. I can see where you are comming from on a few points but i'm a bit lost at other parts..like i'm not sure if you are talking about percieved differences between what the fat acceptance movement has alegedly said fat men experience and what they actually DO experience in society or just that you are unhappy with fat acceptance levels and understanding of fat men in society in general. 
hmm..


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## William (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi Mergirl 

I do not think that Fat Men, Fat Women or anyone knows how they are really perceived. We do not see the innocence in the way that many people deal with us. 

I do have a rough estimate of what Fat Acceptance holds as true about Fat Men. There is not much data and most of it is on the topic of how Fat Men do not experience Fat Bias. That is all that I have to work with.

I do think that despite the many prejudiced attackers here, that Dimension goes beyond most mainline Fat Acceptance areas on this subject.

Like I said as a Fat Guy I never get the face to face confrontation that some Fat Women share about. Still I every thing that I read about Fat Men in Society from our toes to our Sperm to our Brian cells is negative.

I live in Connecticut and there is no Connecticut Fat Men's Association as I can see. I have seen Feminists use the fact that the club once existed as proof of the easy street that Fat Men live on.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9902E3DA113EEF33A25755C2A96E9C94629FD7CF

Well the club was more like Fat Acceptance, outside of Society and it died out anyway.

I am proud that it started in my home town 

William








William 






mergirl said:


> Thanks for your reply william. I need to try to digest it for a while. I can see where you are comming from on a few points but i'm a bit lost at other parts..like i'm not sure if you are talking about percieved differences between what the fat acceptance movement has alegedly said fat men experience and what they actually DO experience in society or just that you are unhappy with fat acceptance levels and understanding of fat men in society in general.
> hmm..


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## mergirl (Apr 2, 2009)

So, to summerise, you feel that the problems that fat men experience are not as readily acknowleged as the problems big women experience in the fat acceptance movement.?


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## William (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi Mergirl

It goes farther than ignoring Fat Male issues, there too many people in Fat Acceptance that the only thing that they say directly about Fat Males is how small or even the nonexistence of Fat Bias in the lives of Fat Men.

There is a difference in the person who does not support Fat Male Issues and a person who oppresses Fat Male Issues. There are a lot of Fat People in Fat Acceptance that do not receive acknowledgment from Fat Acceptance. Fat Males are one of the few where members go out of the way to oppress/suppress the experiences of the subjects. 

William 





mergirl said:


> So, to summerise, you feel that the problems that fat men experience are not as readily acknowleged as the problems big women experience in the fat acceptance movement.?


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## William (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi Mergirl

Thanks for your replies.

I still have the question out there about Fat Acceptance Ideology and how it does or does not work for the Men and Women that do not fit into the FA/BBW and BBW Dance mindset of Fat Acceptance? How Feminism in Fat Acceptance does not do squat for Fat Men? Lastly how Fat is a Issue for all fat people. 

William





mergirl said:


> Thanks for your reply william. I need to try to digest it for a while. I can see where you are comming from on a few points but i'm a bit lost at other parts..like i'm not sure if you are talking about percieved differences between what the fat acceptance movement has alegedly said fat men experience and what they actually DO experience in society or just that you are unhappy with fat acceptance levels and understanding of fat men in society in general.
> hmm..


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## olwen (Apr 2, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Mergirl
> 
> I think that so much of Fat Acceptance *only* focuses on what BHM do not experience is what bothers me. I never said that I felt marginalized, but I still do not like the history Fat Men being established by second and third party sources. Eve today in Fat Accept I see lengthy Blog articles who's Authors feel justified in inserting just a short sentence on what they feel Fat Men do not experience. That kind of apathy is what turns me off from Fat Acceptance. I truly think that apathy is worse than hate.
> 
> ...



More than likely, the kinds of statements that turn you off are said out of ignorance. Apathy is not the same as ignorance. Apathy is when you know and don't care or don't have an opinion. That fact that so many have said they don't know what the issues are speaks to ignorance, not apathy.


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## olwen (Apr 3, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Mergirl
> 
> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> ...



You're right in that feminism doesn't do squat for fat men, but you know, feminism doesn't do much for fat women either. Feminists can't even agree on the definition of "feminism," or what makes a feminist a feminist. Believe me, I've had these conversations with some second wave feminists who were adamant about separating feminism from humanism, and of course there were disagreements among themselves and among third wavers too. 

When I bring up fat politics around some feminists I'm met with either blank stares or a statement like "fat is a health issue, what are you talking about?" I don't expect mainstream feminism will pick up on fat issues for quite some time because of that. There are as many fat hating feminists as there are fat people. So until feminists leaders can get themselves together and begin to agree on what the definitions are, and the direction of the movement and how to involve younger women even, don't expect them to start thinking about how to empower men period, let alone fat men. I honestly think you're asking too much from the feminist movement. What you want to happen is not unreasonable, I just think it goes beyond the scope of what the feminist movement was/is supposed to be about.


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## kayrae (Apr 3, 2009)

check out Bitch Magazine: http://bitchmagazine.org/post/fat-activism-gone-right-or-wrong


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## William (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi Olwen 

I call those people apathetic because they lack the passion or interest to go beyond that one sentence about Fat Men that most of them include in posts. I am taking about articles that may be many pages in length. They lack the interest to differentiate between levels of bias received because of the gender of a Fat person and the Acceptability of a Fat Person. 

William




olwen said:


> More than likely, the kinds of statements that turn you off are said out of ignorance. Apathy is not the same as ignorance. Apathy is when you know and don't care or don't have an opinion. That fact that so many have said they don't know what the issues are speaks to ignorance, not apathy.


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## olwen (Apr 3, 2009)

William said:


> Hi Olwen
> 
> I call those people apathetic because they lack the passion or interest to go beyond that one sentence about Fat Men that most of them include in posts. I am taking about articles that may be many pages in length. They lack the interest to differentiate between levels of bias received because of the gender of a Fat person and the Acceptability of a Fat Person.
> 
> William



So you don't like that these bloggers don't care enough about the fat male experience to seek out accurate information about fat men. I see how that would be annoying to you.

This reminds me of one of my friends. He's a total yuppie, and has the kinds of problems I call "problems of privilege." What drives me crazy is that he complains about money having problems to someone who doesn't have much money at all and never has. For a while I was just baffled as to why he would even think I could relate to those problems the same way he does, but I realized it's because he doesn't know what it's like to not be a yuppie. I can't be too mad about that tho. So, sometimes I listen to his problems and try to help as best I can, and sometimes I give him the viewpoint of a working class stiff in the hopes that he will see what it's like to not be a yuppie and maybe give him some perspective. Sometimes he listens, but usually he comes right back to me with the same sort of disconnect. Lately tho, as much as I don't want to be mad about it, it's been getting to the point where I feel like I can't take it anymore and I think one day soon I'm just gonna have to say something that might hurt his feelings.


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## William (Apr 3, 2009)

I should have said that Feminism in Fat Acceptance hurts Fat Men. There is academic studies coming out now that refutes the Feminist mindset of the 70s - 90s of the acceptability of Fat Men, but the damage is already done and Fat Acceptance drank the Feminist Koolaid 

When I say Feminist, I am not talking about your grassroots Feminist, I am taking about your Feminist writer with several bestselling books. 

For Fat People in general you are right Feminists can be a lot like the General Public, I do not think one of those famous feminist writers that I complain about was a Fat Woman.

I do not think that people should think that because I criticize Fat Acceptance that I want to change the whole community. All that I am saying that Fat Acceptance does give effective support for Fat Men. The Truth is that Fat Acceptance misses giving support for a lot Fat Women who do not fit the Fat Acceptance mold, I see them out there in little Fat Accepting Blog enclaves. They talk about NAAFA with disdain and work on a grassroots level. They are another group of these women who belong to small internet areas where Fat Men and Women support each other.

For the last several years the NAAFA Conventions Schedules of Events have been receiving lots flack because they seem more like a party than a working convention event. NAAFA representatives have bben communicating through to the blogs, let see if the 2009 Convention is any better.

If there is this much resistance on Dimensions which is more free thinking than many places in Fat Acceptance, then other areas will be impossible to work with.

William









olwen said:


> You're right in that feminism doesn't do squat for fat men, but you know, feminism doesn't do much for fat women either. Feminists can't even agree on the definition of "feminism," or what makes a feminist a feminist. Believe me, I've had these conversations with some second wave feminists who were adamant about separating feminism from humanism, and of course there were disagreements among themselves and among third wavers too.
> 
> When I bring up fat politics around some feminists I'm met with either blank stares or a statement like "fat is a health issue, what are you talking about?" I don't expect mainstream feminism will pick up on fat issues for quite some time because of that. There are as many fat hating feminists as there are fat people. So until feminists leaders can get themselves together and begin to agree on what the definitions are, and the direction of the movement and how to involve younger women even, don't expect them to start thinking about how to empower men period, let alone fat men. I honestly think you're asking too much from the feminist movement. What you want to happen is not unreasonable, I just think it goes beyond the scope of what the feminist movement was/is supposed to be about.


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## William (Apr 3, 2009)

Hi Kayrae

Bitch is 100% Apathetic towards Fat Men and that is OK. The words "Fat Men" is not on their website, so that means that they at least are not publishing anything about Fat Men that is a disservice.

"Fat Women" does show up on their web

William






kayrae said:


> check out Bitch Magazine: http://bitchmagazine.org/post/fat-activism-gone-right-or-wrong


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## kayrae (Apr 3, 2009)

I was linking Olwen to Bitch Magazine because it is talking about size-acceptance. 



olwen said:


> You're right in that feminism doesn't do squat for fat men, but you know, *feminism doesn't do much for fat women either. *Feminists can't even agree on the definition of "feminism," or what makes a feminist a feminist. Believe me, I've had these conversations with some second wave feminists who were adamant about separating feminism from humanism, and of course there were disagreements among themselves and among third wavers too.
> 
> When I bring up fat politics around some feminists I'm met with either blank stares or a statement like "fat is a health issue, what are you talking about?" * I don't expect mainstream feminism will pick up on fat issues for quite some time because of that. There are as many fat hating feminists as there are fat people.* So until feminists leaders can get themselves together and begin to agree on what the definitions are, and the direction of the movement and how to involve younger women even, don't expect them to start thinking about how to empower men period, let alone fat men. I honestly think you're asking too much from the feminist movement. What you want to happen is not unreasonable, I just think it goes beyond the scope of what the feminist movement was/is supposed to be about.


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