# Self Esteem Dead Giveaways



## superodalisque (Mar 28, 2009)

Have you noticed that when people are worried about how fat they are that they do certain things that are a dead giveaway. one thing i notice when swimming is that women of all sizes who are so intent on having their rear cheeks covered that they spend all of thier time fiddling with the legs on thier bikinis. i know some folk will say its modesty but it looks more like some kind of special fat OCD (not to disparage people who have OCD which is a real and recognized medical condition chemically based versus a self esteem hitch). its a bikini for goodnes sake! a little cheek might show! rant over

what is your favorite little peeve when it comes to self esteem related stuff? what would you like to see fat folks eliminate? why exactly does it bother you?


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## AnnMarie (Mar 28, 2009)

If you catch me pulling on my bikini bottoms, I can ASSURE you it's not an esteem issue.

More along the lines of a "fabric being eaten by my giant ass" issue.


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## superodalisque (Mar 28, 2009)

AnnMarie said:


> If you catch me pulling on my bikini bottoms, I can ASSURE you it's not an esteem issue.
> 
> More along the lines of a "fabric being eaten by my giant ass" issue.



i definitely know the feeling hehe. nah its a different kind of tugging i'm talking about. its nervous not utilitarian. you can kinda tell the difference


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## Cors (Mar 28, 2009)

I tug at my bikini bottoms too, but only because they are all way too big for me and I don't want to show more than a cheek! :O 

My peeve: People wearing clothes that are way too big or too small. Sacks look awful on just about everyone and people of any size should not feel compelled to hide their bodies. And well, I know too many women who insist on buying a certain size despite having outgrown it years ago and it just looks bad.


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## SamanthaNY (Mar 28, 2009)

Oh come on. Now adjusting one's clothing is a surefire indicator of low self esteem? :doh:.

It can't ever be for comfort or functionality - it must always be that someone is never as emotionally well-adjusted as you. 

Yowza.


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## superodalisque (Mar 28, 2009)

SamanthaNY said:


> Oh come on. Now adjusting one's clothing is a surefire indicator of low self esteem? :doh:.
> 
> It can't ever be for comfort or functionality - it must always be that someone is never as emotionally well-adjusted as you.
> 
> Yowza.



sure it can be for comfort and functionality. but if someone does it 100 times in a minute then its kind of odd. its like watching someone wash thier hands 20 times. no one would think that was only just being clean. if you saw what i meant you'd probably think the same thing.

as for being emotionally well adjusted, i think everyone pretty much has something they need to tweak. if they don't, they aren't telling the truth or the are just totally unaware. i've already seen how something i do has been pegged already. i do wear my clothes too tight. i need to learn that i can just relax and not have to show my fat so much just to show that i'm proud. i expect to see more stuff i do coming down the pike. but just because i'm fat it doesn't mean i have to be a victim or a total basket case or pretend that i am. the thing i love most about dims is that there are a lot of fat women who have most of thier crap together and they don't care who knows it.


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## Cors (Mar 28, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i've already seen how something i do has been pegged already. i do wear my clothes too tight. i need to learn that i can just relax and not have to show my fat so much just to show that i'm proud. i expect to see more stuff i do coming down the pike. but just because i'm fat it doesn't mean i have to be a victim or a total basket case or pretend that i am. the thing i love most about dims is that there are a lot of fat women who have most of thier crap together and they don't care who knows it.



FAs do like it when a girl is confident enough to wear tight clothes to show off her fat, whether in public or in private! I was referring to women who are clearly a size 24 but insist that they have always been a 14, only buy clothes in that size, make them fit somehow and the end result isn't too flattering. This doesn't just apply for fat women though, I do have thinner friends who will not look at a garment unless it is vanity-sized.

And well, I am insecure about my flat, bony butt so I try to hide it whenever I can. Still working on that!


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## ashmamma84 (Mar 28, 2009)

I get that some women might fidget/tug/pull, etc because they might be uncomfortable, but I think women who go out of their way to wear clothing that's too tight look just as uncomfortable. As if they are overcompensating for something else. I think when you're really proud and really got a good head on your shoulders, you're grounded. You don't have to be "on" or a show off all the time. 

I have a good friend who's a big girl and she wears pretty tight clothing and it really isn't becoming -- not because she's fat, but because it looks like it hurts. Busted can o' biscuits ain't a good look for anybody!  Because we are friends, I can tease her and much isn't lost. Just like I tease my other friend about her extra extra baggy attire; but Myrtle the Turtle just rolls her eyes and laughs it off. 

Too lose or too tight pretty much looks kinda silly to me personally, but I guess in my real day to day life I don't tend to notice people that intensely...I'm wayyy into myself and what I'm doing. I'm funny like that. 

For what it's worth, I adjust my 'kini all the time, much for the same reason AnnMarie mention. Sometimes your booty just cannot be contained! 

I think a real self esteem issue is always having to explain yourself away. I kinda feel like I don't have to tell you my life story of why I am -- black, fat, lesbian, etc. -- I simply be! lol And if that isn't enough, tough tits.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 29, 2009)

Interestingly, a group of us at an FFA meet up were talking about the subject of appearance and self esteem.

Two of us women said that we dont' think we're physically attractive but we don't tie that into self esteem. In other words, you can not like how you look without thinking negative things about yourself as a person. It's not different from saying that just because you don't find another person to be attractive it means you dont' like them.

Saying "I'm ugly" does not equal "I'm a terrible person". Physical appearance is just that...it's what's on the outside and that is not what is important. 

So if you are fat and hate being fat, I don't think that means you necessarily hate yourself. And I think you can reasonably say "I hate what I see when I look in the mirror, but I can still recognize my positive qualities and I don't equate how I look with who I am."


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## Sandie S-R (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> sure it can be for comfort and functionality. but if someone does it 100 times in a minute then its kind of odd. its like watching someone wash thier hands 20 times. no one would think that was only just being clean. if you saw what i meant you'd probably think the same thing.
> 
> as for being emotionally well adjusted, i think everyone pretty much has something they need to tweak. if they don't, they aren't telling the truth or the are just totally unaware. i've already seen how something i do has been pegged already. i do wear my clothes too tight. i need to learn that i can just relax and not have to show my fat so much just to show that i'm proud. i expect to see more stuff i do coming down the pike. but just because i'm fat it doesn't mean i have to be a victim or a total basket case or pretend that i am. the thing i love most about dims is that there are a lot of fat women who have most of thier crap together and they don't care who knows it.




As mentioned in the other thread you recently started, not everything a fat person does is about self esteem or lack thereof. 

Adjusting your swimsuit 100 times, may just mean that you have an ill fitting suit.


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## Fascinita (Mar 29, 2009)

I tend to think that any fat woman wearing a bikini has at least a measure of self-confidence. And then, I see women of all sizes and shapes adjusting their clothing, freshening their makeup, and showing other signs of being self-conscious about their appearance in public.

In my own case, my belly and boobs tend to cause tops that aren't cut perfectly to "shift" sometimes, so I often find myself pulling my shirt down and re-adjusting it. Even if this looks to an onlooker like I it means I have a body image problem, it just isn't so. 

I *have* seen some fat people who look uncomfortable with their physical presence, but then I've seen some thin people give off the same vibes, too.


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

okay so the bikini thing is probably over reaching. so what would be a dead giveaway to you?


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## SpecialK (Mar 29, 2009)

I know what you mean, superodalisque....

For me, it's the tug at the shirt once you've sat down so it doesn't show your rolls. I'm sooo guilty of this. And while at this point it's more unconscious (and self-conscious) it's because I don't want that whole Michelin Man effect of my shirt tucked around all my rolls when I sit. And I have noticed it on others.

I used to always be careful of what I ate in public as well. I mean, I'm sure everyone looking at me knew I didn't live off salads and health foods, but they would have never known it from watching me eat anything. Now, I'm not so discriminating most of the time.


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## Donna (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> okay so the bikini thing is probably over reaching. so what would be a dead giveaway to you?




A dead give away to me is someone who takes every opportunity to tell people how fabulous they are...it's my experience he or she is either overcompensating for terrible self worth or are completely narcissistic. I recall reading somewhere that true narcissists are rare.


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## MisticalMisty (Mar 29, 2009)

I think there is a difference between esteem and confidence. To me, the clothing issue would be more of a confidence issue than a self esteem issue.


I think Loves is the one that said her self esteem isn't tied to her confidence and I have to agree. You can have all the body confidence in the world and have really low self esteem and vice versa.

I don't think there are any dead giveaways.


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## NancyGirl74 (Mar 29, 2009)

Personally, I think my level of confidence is linked to my level of self esteem. Still, I don't think that is always the case for everyone and every occasion. 

I know what my own "tells" are and I can sometimes spot them in others. I'm shy anyway but I think my shyness becomes more pronounced then I'm not feeling my most confident. I'm a lip biter or I cover my mouth with my hands or fingers. Sometimes, I twist my hands. Often I sit off to the side when in a group. I'm also clothing tugger, kind of like the bathing suit girl you mentioned. When I see those signs in others I think they are likely feeling less than confident at that moment.


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## Carrie (Mar 29, 2009)

The shirt tugging thing is a very good example for consideration. I see a lot of us do it, but the thing is, I don't think that kind of thing can necessarily be chalked up to poor self esteem. I see a lot of thin people tugging on their clothes for various reasons, too. One person's perception of poor self esteem is another's wish for modesty, or comfort (as evidenced by the bikini responses), or appropriateness for the situation, or whatever, you name it. 

I've actually read many posts here on Dims from some posters who seem to think that an unwillingness to post revealing pictures of oneself equals poor self-esteem. This really struck me as inaccurate, because I can think of ten reasons right off the top of my head why someone might not want to do that, none of which have anything to do with self-esteem. And to take that example one step further, some folks believe that frequent posting of revealing photos here, looking for praise and positive feedback, is actually a symptom of self-esteem that is, perhaps, lacking. See what I'm getting at? 

Self-esteem is such a personal, individual thing; I think attempting to define a particular physical movement or behavior as a symptom of lacking it is oversimplifying to a potentially damaging degree. We're all (well, most) trying to work towards understanding and acceptance here, and blanket statements about xyz behavior equaling poor self-esteem doesn't really further that goal, in my opinion.


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## Littleghost (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> sure it can be for comfort and functionality. but if someone does it 100 times in a minute then its kind of odd. its like watching someone wash thier hands 20 times. no one would think that was only just being clean. if you saw what i meant you'd probably think the same thing.



I think you're confusing neurological (OCD) with psychological (self-esteem).  Any one thing out of context can have a hundred different explanations.


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

Donna said:


> A dead give away to me is someone who takes every opportunity to tell people how fabulous they are...it's my experience he or she is either overcompensating for terrible self worth or are completely narcissistic. I recall reading somewhere that true narcissists are rare.



meet me in person in orlando this summer and then see what you think. i'm really not so bad as i come off in the forums. its just hard to say things in just the right way.


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

Littleghost said:


> I think you're confusing neurological (OCD) with psychological (self-esteem).  Any one thing out of context can have a hundred different explanations.



i was kinda careful to differentiate it from OCD. there are chemical imbalances and then there are just plain habits. when you look at articles on body language tugging at clothing items repetatively is usually associated with an appearance of lack of confidence. but anyway that example was probably waaay too subtle.

what if it were something like having to ask guys you date why he likes fat girls? would that be a dead giveaway or just a matter of practicality?


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

Sandie S-R said:


> As mentioned in the other thread you recently started, not everything a fat person does is about self esteem or lack thereof.
> 
> Adjusting your swimsuit 100 times, may just mean that you have an ill fitting suit.



i don't recall using the word every


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> okay so the bikini thing is probably over reaching. so what would be a dead giveaway to you?



There are no dead giveaways really. Self esteem looks like everybody. It's rooted in the confidence to be whoever and whatever it is you are, be it in a bikini or a burkha. If someone doesn't want their cleavage hanging out, belly showing or arms exposed it's not a sign of anything but preference.


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

so psychologists who deal in body language etc... have been totally incorrect all of this time?

so no one ever makes a judgement be it correct or incorrect based on just a few elements they can observe? i'm not talking a correct observation but just a personal observation.


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## Tooz (Mar 29, 2009)

SamanthaNY said:


> Oh come on. Now adjusting one's clothing is a surefire indicator of low self esteem? :doh:.
> 
> It can't ever be for comfort or functionality - it must always be that someone is never as emotionally well-adjusted as you.
> 
> Yowza.



I always have to adjust when I am not wearing a dress  my pants fall down and my shirts shift up.

It sucks wicked bad.


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

LoveBHMS said:


> Interestingly, a group of us at an FFA meet up were talking about the subject of appearance and self esteem.
> 
> Two of us women said that we dont' think we're physically attractive but we don't tie that into self esteem. In other words, you can not like how you look without thinking negative things about yourself as a person. It's not different from saying that just because you don't find another person to be attractive it means you dont' like them.
> 
> ...



i dunno. i don't think that people are physically ugly generally. i think its something that can emminate from the inside. it comes from a feeling of helplessness and self hatred i think. then that spreads into hate for other people because of the assumption that other people have the same feelings about them that they have about themsleves. so really learning to see and love yourself is also about being able to trust and love other people. but thats just my view.


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> so psychologists who deal in body language etc... have been totally incorrect all of this time?
> 
> so no one ever makes a judgement be it correct or incorrect based on just a few elements they can observe? i'm not talking a correct observation but just a personal observation.



Not for self esteem, no. If you're looking for signs of lying, physical attraction, anxiety, etc. there are certain common things that one can observe that provide evidence that is circumstantial at best. These things may not translate into a broad analysis of someone's personage though, it may only mean that the person is uncomfortable in their present circumstances or possibly with just you.


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## superodalisque (Mar 29, 2009)

LillyBBBW said:


> Not for self esteem, no. If you're looking for signs of lying, physical attraction, anxiety, etc. there are certain common things that one can observe that provide evidence that is circumstantial at best. These things may not translate into a broad analysis of someone's personage though, it may only mean that the person is uncomfortable in their present circumstances or possibly with just you.




so what would be a giveaway? is there something you notice maybe not so small that would tip you off right away?

i know i'm always fiddling with my shirt when its tucked into my jeans --especially at the back. not mainly because was afraid anything was showing but because when i was young i was told it was flat. i'm trying to break myself of the habit but it takes a while.


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> so what would be a giveaway? is there something you notice maybe not so small that would tip you off right away?



I usually notice when someone is unable to make eye contact. You speak to them and they won't look directly at you, they will look around and mutter a response that is practically inaudible. They are a little stiff, tense and it's clear to see they are uncomfortable. For me it's a sign that this person is a little shy and not comfortable with meeting new people. This usually goes away once we get to know each other or sometimes not. They may just not like me. *shrugs* It happens. Being shy is a far cry from having a low self esteem though. A good time Charlie with the lampshade on his head may have a low self esteem. Like I said before, it's comprised of many factors depending on the individual.


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## Sandie S-R (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> okay so the bikini thing is probably over reaching. so what would be a dead giveaway to you?



I don't think there is such a thing as a "dead giveaway". Making assumptions about someone's self esteem or self confidence (or lack thereof) based on appearances, is something we really should not to be doing.


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## AnnMarie (Mar 29, 2009)

Donna said:


> A dead give away to me is someone who takes every opportunity to tell people how fabulous they are...it's my experience he or she is either overcompensating for terrible self worth or are completely narcissistic. I recall reading somewhere that true narcissists are rare.




You know, that's so true. 

I know a girl who is constantly telling someone how amazing they look or their hair or shirt of something is. I know she's got some big esteem issues, but the comments are a result of judgement. Her issues cause her to constantly evaluate others and judge, and I think she throws out compliments to cover for the fact that she's checking them out. 

The give away is there's generally nothing different or good about what she's mentioning... they're just throw away comments.


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## AnnMarie (Mar 29, 2009)

Carrie said:


> The shirt tugging thing is a very good example for consideration. I see a lot of us do it, but the thing is, I don't think that kind of thing can necessarily be chalked up to poor self esteem. I see a lot of thin people tugging on their clothes for various reasons, too. One person's perception of poor self esteem is another's wish for modesty, or comfort (as evidenced by the bikini responses), or appropriateness for the situation, or whatever, you name it.
> 
> I've actually read many posts here on Dims from some posters who seem to think that an unwillingness to post revealing pictures of oneself equals poor self-esteem. This really struck me as inaccurate, because I can think of ten reasons right off the top of my head why someone might not want to do that, none of which have anything to do with self-esteem. And to take that example one step further, some folks believe that frequent posting of revealing photos here, looking for praise and positive feedback, is actually a symptom of self-esteem that is, perhaps, lacking. See what I'm getting at?
> 
> Self-esteem is such a personal, individual thing; I think attempting to define a particular physical movement or behavior as a symptom of lacking it is oversimplifying to a potentially damaging degree. We're all (well, most) trying to work towards understanding and acceptance here, and blanket statements about xyz behavior equaling poor self-esteem doesn't really further that goal, in my opinion.





Again, agree. With fat women especially, sometimes things just don't fit quite right. We're all built very different and clothing is generally not built to sit on us all the same way. Even a simple shirt tug or pull can be something about the fact that it windowshades on you every time you sit down. I have LOTS of shirts like that... they're annoying as hell. I still wear them to events and stuff because they're cute and all, but damn if they don't roll up my belly every time I park my ass. 

It's not about anything other than "this no longer looks how I intended" and adjusting because of it. Linking a wardrobe malfunction to esteem or confidence is a dangerous connection. 



Here's one I can think of. I have a girl I know professionally who will wear a shirt that is clearly sleeveless or very short sleeved (caps or something) and she's always wearing a shirt underneath it... something long sleeved. If she were wearing a shrug or sweater, I might be able to assume she's someone who gets cold or something, but the sleeves to her hands.... UNDER a very short shirt? And it's not just a layered look, it's a nice, shiny patterned shirt or something, with an oversized "right price" type cotton, white long sleeved shirt. 

That is a confidence issue - and I know this because I've discussed it with her. That's a covering move, and because it's done so poorly, it's like a giant sign pointing to the problem she has showing her arms. If she just showed them, know one would even get it. If I didn't know her, I might think it's an esteem or confidence issue, but I couldn't be sure. Maybe her arms are burned or something? Maybe she's got a skin condition that she wants covered? There are a lot of reasons people make the choices they do - as others have said, I just don't think you can assume it's a tell. 

I work with another person (and she and I have discussed this) who either wears a very high neck top or if it's low she wears a giant scarf. After about 2 months of giant scarfs in the summer, I asked what was up. She explained she's very freckled and doesn't care to show that part of her chest. I explained that we all have something, but that others rarely notice those things and even if they do... it's not something we "eewww" about ... they're freckles!! Hasn't stopped the scarf (although I have worked on her arm issue as well (they're EVERYWHERE) and had measured success in getting her into slightly shorter sleeved tops with some comfort.)

Scarf girl is also compliment girl I mentioned above.


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## LoveBHMS (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i dunno. i don't think that people are physically ugly generally. i think its something that can emminate from the inside. it comes from a feeling of helplessness and self hatred i think. then that spreads into hate for other people because of the assumption that other people have the same feelings about them that they have about themsleves. so really learning to see and love yourself is also about being able to trust and love other people. but thats just my view.



Uhm..that is like not at ALL what I said. I was simply saying that views or opinions on somebody's physical, outward appearance have nothing to do with their inside. It's the same line of thought that makes some posters here not like the term BBW because it's simply a fact that not all women (big or small) are beautiful. My point is that outward appearance does not, or should not matter enough to affect how you feel about what is inside.

If everyone was pretty, fashion models would earn minimum wage cause anyone could do the job. All women and men would get equal attention at bars and clubs. University studies have shown that even babies have preferences for certain physical characteristics.


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## steely (Mar 29, 2009)

I agree with Annmarie,if I'm fiddling with my clothes it's because nothing I wear fits quite right.My pants have a tendency to slide off because I have no hips.So I'm constantly trying to keep from being naked.Shirts have a tendency to pull up,so I'm trying to get them to mesh with the pants.I need a personal seamstress to alter my clothes.Once I get my clothes fixed I'm just fine.It's not self esteem,it's being presentable.


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## Suze (Mar 29, 2009)

i was once accused for wanting to hide my double chin for wearing scarfs all the time. (not true, i just love scarfs)
i've also gotten the "you don't post sexy's so u must have low self esteem" thingy. :doh:

so yeah, some stuff might look like a self-esteem issue that isn't.

i DO have a thing with my upper arms, and are perfectly aware it's ridiculous.
thank gawd for cover-ups (for now).


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## olwen (Mar 29, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> i was kinda careful to differentiate it from OCD. there are chemical imbalances and then there are just plain habits. when you look at articles on body language tugging at clothing items repetatively is usually associated with an appearance of lack of confidence. but anyway that example was probably waaay too subtle.
> 
> what if it were something like having to ask guys you date why he likes fat girls? would that be a dead giveaway or just a matter of practicality?



In my opinion asking that question would be a matter of practicality. You want to know if the guy is serious or just into hogging. When you first meet, you want to be able to suss that out. There are other things to go by for sure, so that's just another thing to go by. You just want to see where his head is at. If he makes it clear that he's serious or behaves in a way where it obviously won't be an issue, then you don't have to ask. 

As for dead giveaways....I don't think there is just one thing. I think you'd have to take overall body language into consideration, as well as the social situation and how well they know you. Sometimes people are just shy, but that's not always the same as having low self-esteem. Some actors are notoriously shy but they have to have the confidence to be able to get in front of an audience or a camera and perform. If they have self esteem issues you wouldn't be able to tell. Sometimes you just can't tell.


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## Tooz (Mar 29, 2009)

Donna said:


> A dead give away to me is someone who takes every opportunity to tell people how fabulous they are...it's my experience he or she is either overcompensating for terrible self worth or are completely narcissistic. I recall reading somewhere that true narcissists are rare.



Good lord do I know someone like that.


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## olwen (Mar 29, 2009)

AnnMarie said:


> Again, agree. With fat women especially, sometimes things just don't fit quite right. We're all built very different and clothing is generally not built to sit on us all the same way. Even a simple shirt tug or pull can be something about the fact that it windowshades on you every time you sit down. I have LOTS of shirts like that... they're annoying as hell. I still wear them to events and stuff because they're cute and all, but damn if they don't roll up my belly every time I park my ass.
> 
> It's not about anything other than "this no longer looks how I intended" and adjusting because of it. Linking a wardrobe malfunction to esteem or confidence is a dangerous connection.
> ...snipitty snip snip.



That's very true. I tug on my shirts a lot because the fabric gets bunched up between my rolls and it's uncomfortable. What I especially hate is when people sneak up behind me and pull my shirts down in the back. Heaven forbid my shirt should come to rest on my ass. Then they ask - didn't you notice your shirt in the back. Why don't you pull it down? Sometimes I do and sometimes I just don't. I never thought about it as more than just an annoying thing, but now I'm gonna be wondering if people think it's a self-esteem thing.


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## mossystate (Mar 29, 2009)

Most people...no matter their size...' tug ' on things that might mean they are not comfortable with themselves ( and not just talking clothing ).

It seems that only when it is a person who already is bashed 1,000 ways to Sunday, is it to be placed under a microscope. Because, after all, many folks expect fat people to have little self respect or confidence. Who CARES if some fat people feel uncomfortable with themselves...sometimes...in some ways.

We are allowed to be human...or should be allowed.


* leaves, tugging my shirt down to cover more of my hanging belly...and giving a one finger salute *


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## NancyGirl74 (Mar 29, 2009)

It's hard to just look at someone and assume then have pride, confidence, or are lacking self esteem. As outsiders we always read other people's body language in our own way. We put our own inflections on what we see. Often we are correct but just as often we are not. Still, if you see someone hugging themselves and rocking with their head down and fidgeting constantly most would assume that person is very self conscience which could mean low self esteem. OR that person as to pee really bad. As observers we'll never fully know. 

I think we're too fixated on the 'tugging' aspect of Super's post. People tug, fidget, adjust constantly, some people more than others. That in and of itself doesn't equal low self esteem. Maybe there was a look about the woman or a certain way she held herself that said it wasn't just the suit that she felt uncomfortable in. Maybe it suggested that she was uncomfortable within her own skin. We will never know but I think Super saw something in this woman that moved her and made her question what other ways we might display how we feel about ourselves. It's a very valid question...especially in a community where low self esteem is a big issue for some.


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## elle camino (Mar 29, 2009)

Donna said:


> A dead give away to me is someone who takes every opportunity to tell people how fabulous they are...it's my experience he or she is either overcompensating for terrible self worth or are completely narcissistic. I recall reading somewhere that true narcissists are rare.


wait wait wait.
are you talking about someone who goes around telling everyone else how fabulous they personally are, as in "nice to meet you! for the record: i am fucking fabulous.", or telling everyone else how fabulous _they_ (as in the person they're talking to) are?
pretty big diff. 
if it's the former i tend to agree. obsessive crowing about how great you are comes off to me like whistling in the dark.
but if it's the latter - i totally do that. and it's really got zip to do with how i feel about myself, in fact in a weird way its kind of egotistical for me to think anyone should be thrilled to pieces when i compliment their hair or their clothes or whatever.
my general philosophy is that if you have something nice to say, don't keep it under your hat for no reason and squander the opportunity to possibly brighten someone's day a little. say it! why the hell not.


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## TygerKitty (Mar 29, 2009)

Sitting down on a couch/bed and putting a pillow on your lap to hide the belly! I'm totally guilty of this but it just makes that area even more padded lol! And yes, it's for self-conscious reasons!


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## Theotherone (Mar 29, 2009)

First, if anyone's interested, S-F writer Ted Chiang wrote a great story about "lookism" called "Liking What You See" that hits on a lot of the concerns raised in this thread (although the metaphor there is facial attractiveness instead of size). It's in his Story of Your Life anthology.

I wish I lived in a world where we didn't key in on physical beauty or size and instead see the fascinating minds and caring hearts behind such things.

I wish I loved in world where all BBWs realized that its their curves that rev me motor and would stop trying to hide them.


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## thatgirl08 (Mar 29, 2009)

TygerKitty said:


> Sitting down on a couch/bed and putting a pillow on your lap to hide the belly! I'm totally guilty of this but it just makes that area even more padded lol! And yes, it's for self-conscious reasons!



I'm guilty of this but I'm trying to break the habit.


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## Santaclear (Mar 29, 2009)

People who post obsessively on internet forums, generally narcisistic but with poor self exteem. Experts agree that a maximum of one to two posts monthly is in a healthy range.


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## Donna (Mar 29, 2009)

elle camino said:


> wait wait wait.
> are you talking about someone who goes around telling everyone else how fabulous they personally are, as in "nice to meet you! for the record: i am fucking fabulous.", or telling everyone else how fabulous _they_ (as in the person they're talking to) are?
> pretty big diff.
> if it's the former i tend to agree. obsessive crowing about how great you are comes off to me like whistling in the dark.
> ...



I should have made myself more clear (so much for my crowing in the TV thread about communicating well. Irony thy name is Donna.) :blush: 

I was indeed trying to say that constantly feeling the need to tell others how wonderful you, yourself, are is, in my opinion, a dead giveaway of either extreme narcissism or very low self esteem. "Whistling in the dark" is a nice way to put it. Some people, myself included, utilize the "fake it until you make it" technique for developing confidence and/or self esteem (I'm not completely sure the two aren't the same thing as they always seem interchangeable in my mind.) It's a fine line to walk between being successful at the technique, though, and overdoing it and coming off as conceited/self centered.

I apologize if I am not completely lucid in my thinking and communication today. I pulled my back earlier and I think the muscle relaxers are starting to take effect. 

I agree with you, Elle, that if you have something nice to say, you should say it. I don't think that is the type of person/situation Ann Marie was referring to. I am sure that when you compliment someone, you are genuine and that genuineness shows through. I think what Ann Marie was speaking of are the people who are disingenuous in their compliments and that shows through in their communication.


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## superodalisque (Mar 30, 2009)

yeah elle they were just talking about me being full of myself again as usual.


i love telling other people they are beautiful because they are. it upsets me to no end when i go out and see so many beautiful fat women worrying about how they look. i should be more patient. when i push for self esteem here a lot of people who don't really know me think that its all about me--which is okay. 

of course the other dead giveaway for problems with self esteem has to do with constantly feeling the need to make personal judgements and assumptions about people you really don't know and have never met or talked to because you assume they have a negative opinion of you--even when they have a positive opinion of you.


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## elle camino (Mar 30, 2009)

i sit with a pillow on my lap because it's comfortable and gives me a little armrest. i see people without bellies doing it all the time. 

it means nothing. 




sheesh.


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## LillyBBBW (Mar 30, 2009)

elle camino said:


> i sit with a pillow on my lap because it's comfortable and gives me a little armrest. i see people without bellies doing it all the time.
> 
> it means nothing.
> 
> ...



I always thought it meant someone was hiding a boner or someone was trying to disuade panty peekers when wearing short skirts.


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## elle camino (Mar 30, 2009)

oh yeah that too! i have conflicting habits. i wear dresses (all the time), and i sit cross-legged, indian style (almost all the time). 
so quite often the pillow is what keeps me from flashing the world.


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## Zandoz (Mar 30, 2009)

> You say I do things that I don't realise
> But I don't care it's all psychobabble rap to me
> 
> Psychobabble -- Alan Parsons & Eric Woolfson



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RmHSbTNudk


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## TraciJo67 (Mar 30, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> so psychologists who deal in body language etc... have been totally incorrect all of this time?
> 
> so no one ever makes a judgement be it correct or incorrect based on just a few elements they can observe? i'm not talking a correct observation but just a personal observation.



Psychologists who specialize in "reading" body language look at a LOT of indicators before making an assessment. A professional wouldn't make the assumption that a woman who is tugging on her bikini bottom (no matter how many times she does it) is automatically lacking in self-esteem.


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## SamanthaNY (Mar 30, 2009)

TraciJo67 said:


> Psychologists who specialize in "reading" body language look at a LOT of indicators before making an assessment. A professional wouldn't make the assumption that a woman who is tugging on her bikini bottom (no matter how many times she does it) is automatically lacking in self-esteem.



Yes, but amateurs can do it all the live-long day. To their heart's content. 


And they clearly do just that.


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## William (Mar 30, 2009)

Hi Sam

I know guys of all sizes who tug a lot on their shirts, they even only buy shirts that will cause them to tug less or they buy large shirts, even before that was the style.

On the other hand one of my heroes Captain Jean-Luc Picard was always tugging on the shirt part of his uniform 

William




SamanthaNY said:


> Yes, but amateurs can do it all the live-long day. To their heart's content.
> 
> 
> And they clearly do just that.


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## Donna (Mar 30, 2009)

superodalisque said:


> yeah elle they were just talking about me being full of myself again as usual.
> 
> 
> i love telling other people they are beautiful because they are. it upsets me to no end when i go out and see so many beautiful fat women worrying about how they look. i should be more patient. when i push for self esteem here a lot of people who don't really know me think that its all about me--which is okay.
> ...



Your tone here makes me assume you are feeling attacked. I was not attacking and I am sorry you feel that way. Did I take a little jab with my original post? Yes, I did. Did I (do I) judge you based on what you write here on the forums? Yes. Very few people are truly non-judgmental about others and I would wager you yourself have formed a judgment about me based on my posts in this and other threads. It is human nature to judge others. Every time I write something and click the [Submit Reply] button I have to remind myself that people will judge me based on what I have written. 

In the bigger picture, and in my subsequent post clarifying my point, I wasn't directing any of my points at anyone in particular; though to be honest I know several people in my professional and social life who are walking examples of someone who constantly trumpets their own horn to (over)compensate for poor self esteem. I encounter a lot more people in my day to day comings and goings and I've learned a few things in training sessions about reading people based not just on their message, but how said message is delivered. 

As part of my job description, I conduct the first face to face interview with potential employees of the facilities I work with. Some head hunters and professional coaches will tell candidates one of the surest ways to build a rapport with someone is to compliment them on something, but those same coaches will follow that up with a cautionary message: make sure the compliment is sincere. I would say that 80% of the candidates I encounter listen to the first part of the advice, but seemingly ignore the advice about keeping it sincere. 

That is what I was thinking of when I wrote what I wrote previously about indiscriminately handing out compliments. 

Esteem, as many wise women in this thread have pointed out, is not the same for everyone (and I will even go out on a limb here and say that very few of us are 100% confident 100% of the time) and how it is and isn't expressed is just as individual. And I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't discuss esteem or it's effects on our lives. It is possible, however, to pick apart the concept of self esteem so much that the real concept of esteem gets lost. Perhaps that is the message that I am aiming at.


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## Tarella (Mar 30, 2009)

I really find this thread interesting for many reasons, so thanks for posting it Superodalique I agree with many of the posters here and disagree with others. 

I can think of two things that are almost completely opposite in selfexpression but they both involved me fidgetting with my clothing. In one of the circumstances I am aware that what I am doing is because I am trying to hide, coverup, become more modest about the body part I am trying to hide. In the other circumstance, I am actually confident and trying to play up, accentuate, appear sexier so I think that nonverbal communication can be so interesting to try and figure out. Often time people send out mixed messages that are often misread. God knows that the internet can be a medium that is more often than not misconstrued and misinterpreted. 

I found an interesting read about self esteem, self-confidence, and narcissism on Wikipedia. Interestingly enough, bullying behavior was once thought occur with those with lower self esteems. More and more, they are realizing in studies that bullying behavior is more common with people with overinflated self-regard. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem


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## tonynyc (Apr 1, 2009)

Self Esteem Issues? Body language? I hope you gorgeous ladies of DIMS aren't part of some sinister movement likeThe Parallax View. If so, I'm looking forward to the video montage -but, with plenty of BBW images.


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